From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 00:12:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA14627; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710010704.AAA26193 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "Free Energy" , Subject: Re: spindizzy winds down Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:08:59 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nt7r51.0.Qa3.gNVCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott! > > Right, and I think we can stop looking in classical electromagnetics as > well...and this especially includes electromagnetic motors. > > What is hard for some folks to appreciate is the enormous amount of > engineering that has already been done based upon classical theories. These > theories aren't just something you dig out of physics books when you want to > pontificate...they have been tested and tested and tested. > > The human race has built countless mechanical and electrical machines with > degrees of sophistication ranging beyond any one person's full > comprehension. When you drive away in a modern car, for example, you are > riding on man-centuries of cumulative engineering accomplishment. In many > of these engineering efforts the actual working models are compared to the > theoretical design models with a fine-toothed comb until any and all > discrepancies are resolved. If there were any significant "irregularities" > in classical theory which could be manifested as easily as moving weights > attached to a wheel, or a special arrangement of magnets around a rotor, you > can rest assured that such would have been detected, explored and exploited > long ago. > > Barry says it well: > > > Any "OU" observed in the real world would have to come from > >fundamentally new physics (like ZPE, 5th force, etc), and > >so it is irrelevant to look for it based on classical force analyes. > > In fact, it is a waste of precious time to look for OU in classical physics. > I think you may be right that it is a waste of time looking for discrepancies in the THEORY of classical physics, because it is obviously a hermetically-sealed structure well-buttressed on all sides with plenty of evidence. I don't think this means that simple experiments that appear to be classical in nature cannot give unexpected results. As an example: The Foucalt pendulum and its actions are clearly predictable by classical mechanics. It is the simplest experiment in the world to conduct (although doing it with high accuracy is as difficult as anything else). Yet when Maurice Allais went to the historical record to discover the result of actual experiments with this pendulum he discovered that there were only two recorded trials of the Foucalt pendulum in as many centuries and that the actual data had not been recorded! He thought this peculiar, but took no more notice-- until he himself did extended measurements of a high-quality torsion pendulum and discovered that there were daily, weekly, and monthly variations in the period of such a pendulum that were tens of magnitudes beyond what could have been caused by the gravity of the moon, much less the sun, or the planets. My suspicion is that when earlier researchers did experiments with pendulums they saw the same results but rather than write up a report that appeared to be full of huge experimental errors and unexplained variations they simply stated their theory as their conclusions, and slept well at night :-) There have been few other pendulum tests done over long time periods. Those that have been conducted have all shown these results. Yet few scientists are aware of them, except perhaps those that belong to this list, and few scientists would countenance the idea that such a simple experiment could give such anomalous results. I could literally go on all night giving details of experiments done with "classical" setups that gave anomalous results, but why bother? There is always a way to rationalize away any anomaly, and there is always a way for a believer to rationalize any anomaly into their pet theory ("must be torsion waves from alpha centauri") and I am cynical enough to know that no-one, neither sceptic or believer will bother to repeat this simple experiment. Each will hold to their respective positions, because it is easier on the mind, and one sleeps well at night. and I-- I will not repeat the experiment because I am not a scientist, but a mere library worm. There are two aspects of human nature in opposition here. One is the enquiring and observant mind which searches out any discrepancies from expectation and attempts to resolve them, even at the expense of preconceived notions. This the spirit of science. Then there is the tendency of the mind to NOT SEE what doesn't fit expectations. I suggest that IF those engineers designing cars had discovered "irregularities" in their electromagnetic components (such as the fact that it takes longer to stop a rotating magnet in one direction than the other, as reported by Aspden and some Russian researchers) they would work quickly to smooth out the data curve and design out the obnoxious flaw in their system. They would certainly not go to their bosses at GM and ask for more money to examine this strange thing. I do not believe we know SQUAT about how the universe really works. We are whistling in the dark. And as my friend Stuart says, "that's my story, and I'm sticking to it..." Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 00:49:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA18206; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:12:14 +1000 Message-Id: <199710011012.UAA04108 main.murray.net.au> X-Sender: egel main.murray.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Geoff Egel Subject: Re: (MER) Werjefelt documents given ok for web! Resent-Message-ID: <"Dsf8O.0.NS4.n_VCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:43 PM 9/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Butch, > >send them to me and I will scan them and email them to whoever is going to >give them a home. > >Fred > >> >> I just spoke with Mr. Werjefelt on the phone, and he has given me the ok >to >> put his documents on the web. Does any one have any suggestions as how >best >> to convert 8 1/2 x 11 documents for email and web sites. >> Thanks, >> Butch > >If you can send your scan to me gif format I will retype them and put on my web site. > >would be better how ever to scan the text using OCR and send to me in txt format. To put them on web website I use a combination of Ken Nesbitts web edit and microsoft word 6 which has an attachment to convert word files into html code maybe you can do the same I switch between the two above programs to do this while creating the page and do this offline.. Hope this info is of help Geoff > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 06:10:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA13267; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:30:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:30:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:30:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710011230.HAA16474 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: spindizzy winds down Resent-Message-ID: <"972Zo2.0.DF3.i9aCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:08 AM 10/1/97 -0700, Fred Epps wrote: >I don't think this means that simple experiments that appear to >be classical in nature cannot give unexpected results. Right...in fact that's what I spend a good portion of my time on these days...investigating such claims. So far the score is theory ~30, anomalies 0 ... but I'm still here and still doing it! Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 06:17:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA15534; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:40:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:40:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:40:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710011240.HAA17140 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: coriolis challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"x_1Za2.0.Xo3.iIaCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As Barry says the coriolis force is a tangentially directed force that arises when an object moves radially in a rotating frame. It is a result of the fact that the moving object must accelerate in a tangential direction when it moves radially since v = w*r. The Mississippi river flows from north to south in the northern hemisphere and thus the water is moving outward radially in the Earth's frame. The resulting coriolis force will accelerate the river in an easterly direction. This will result in an east-west tilt to the surface of the river making the level on the west bank higher than the level on the east bank. How much higher in Memphis? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 06:44:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA18697; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3432658A.72DA keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 08:00:26 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Time Travel Story References: <199710011230.HAA16474 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P_0F02.0.3a4.BsaCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! I know, I know, thar be flames coming, but read it as entertainment if nothing else; http://www.keelynet.com/time/emantime.htm Also the full time travel page is; http://www.keelynet.com/time/timeind.htm I questioned the author about what kind of circuit would produce light?? and have received no response as yet....but the story is most intriguing...hopefully they'll provide a circuit or better description of what and how they achieved this aledged temporal anomaly... So, write down the winning lotto numbers on your skin in indelible ink, turn on the machine, go back about an hour or so, then play those numbers, would those numbers still win?? If so, all our financing problems are solved........have fun, enjoy life, friends and family and don't go off the deep end....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 07:21:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA23418; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:30:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:30:01 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971001082937.ZM17055 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:29:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Fred Epps" "Re: THE SPINDIZZY" (Sep 30, 7:53pm) References: <199710010051.RAA29663 mail1.halcyon.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE SPINDIZZY Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"zLMk71.0.qj5.N1bCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sep 30, 7:53pm, Fred Epps wrote: > Right now, I would rather just focus on the physical examples given and > establish what the truth of the matter is one way or the other. Sorry, but that's like trying to figure out how a fire started by restricting your inspection to just the ashes. > I will say philosophically I don't have any problems with a system, or a universe, > saturated with anti-entropy. I have no idea whether that is the case, but > I like it :-) That's all well and good, but science isn't by popular vote. 8^) > AV is AM or angular momentum No. Angular velocity is not angular momentum. Angular momentum requires velocity AND mass. > I'm looking at the equations right now. Maybe I just don't understand > them. I think your assessment is correct. Some simple experiments to better understand what you are reading: http://www.mip.berkeley.edu/physics/noteindex.html#rotational_inertia -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 09:49:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA16176; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:32:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:32:50 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710011632.LAA07643 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: spindizzy winds down In-Reply-To: <199710010409.XAA05641 natasha.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Sep 30, 97 11:09:08 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:32:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W262G2.0.Sy3.midCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > In fact, it is a waste of precious time to look for OU in classical physics. Not necessarily. It motivates many people to gain a keener understanding of physical laws. I suspect that many people who have labored under temporary incorrect ideas about physical laws have, as a result, gained a deeper understanding than those "students" who have merely accepted what was spoon fed to them in the classroom. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 10:08:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA14429; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:29:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:29:28 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder, Henry J." To: Scott Little Cc: Vortex-L Subject: RE: coriolis challenge Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:26:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"amMG_.0.9X3.afdCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott In an old Godzilla movie, he and a pollution enhanced lobster were playing badminton with a large boulder across the length of Japan, about 500 miles. Think of the coriolis forces involved, or alternatively, the trajectories the boulder had to travel between the two of them. Hank ---------- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: coriolis challenge Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 5:40AM As Barry says the coriolis force is a tangentially directed force that arises when an object moves radially in a rotating frame. It is a result of the fact that the moving object must accelerate in a tangential direction when it moves radially since v = w*r. The Mississippi river flows from north to south in the northern hemisphere and thus the water is moving outward radially in the Earth's frame. The resulting coriolis force will accelerate the river in an easterly direction. This will result in an east-west tilt to the surface of the river making the level on the west bank higher than the level on the east bank. How much higher in Memphis? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 10:21:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA25398; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:58:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:58:53 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710011658.LAA07986 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: THE SPINDIZZY In-Reply-To: <199709300558.WAA16763 mail1.halcyon.com> from Fred Epps at "Sep 29, 97 11:06:03 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:58:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g3JA1.0.jC6.C5eCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I guess the topic is already expended, but I thought I'd point out that even in linear interactions, a perfectly inelastic collision of two bodies CANNOT conserve kinetic energy. Since: momentem = mass * velocity and since: kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2 Since both are in terms of mass and velocity and since they generate quite different mathematical results ... You can see that any joining of two independent masses into a new common mass would not allow both equations to simultaneously be maintained. Nature has decided to favor the conservation of momentum. So the first equation always wins. The second equation loses and much kinetic energy is lost into heating and oscilations and deformation (and or local conversion to potential energy -- i.e. storage.) When two objects collide (and stick together) the result always has less kinetic energy -- it has to in order to conserve momementum. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 11:00:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA28163; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:31:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710011731.MAA18344 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: spindizzy winds down Resent-Message-ID: <"vu9Zy2.0.ut6.1beCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:32 10/1/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> In fact, it is a waste of precious time to look for OU in classical physics. > >Not necessarily....I suspect that many people who have labored under >temporary incorrect ideas about physical laws have, as a result, gained >a deeper understanding than those "students" who have merely accepted >what was spoon fed to them in the classroom. Excellent point, John. In fact, both Hal and I have spent many hours trying to dope out _apparent_ OU results from classical theory...with exactly the benefit you describe. One example that kept us busy for several days: Create a charge dipole way way far away from a central charged sphere. Energy required to create said dipole is small. Let dipole accelerate towards charged sphere. Dipole gains KE. Intercept dipole just before impact and extract its KE. Now make Q on central sphere arbitrarily large until extracted KE exceeds original dipole creation energy by desired amount. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 11:11:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA10934; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:52:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:52:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:58:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: coriolis challenge In-Reply-To: <199710011240.HAA17140 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ctcWh1.0.lg2.4teCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Scott Little wrote: >> >>The Mississippi river flows from north to south in the northern hemisphere >>and thus the water is moving outward radially in the Earth's frame. The >>resulting coriolis force will accelerate the river in an easterly direction. >>This will result in an east-west tilt to the surface of the river making the >>level on the west bank higher than the level on the east bank. How much >>higher in Memphis? >> >>Scott >> >> The St. Johns River (through Jacksonville Fl. US) AND the Nile River (Egypt) "Run SOUTH to NORTH"... If you grab small globe map and put your fingers on them the third equadistance location would appear to be off Japan... Going North I just noted a slew of Rivers in Siberia (USSR) that must be Mountain Driven, All headed North TOO.. ---------- Anyone know if there are three 'Rivers' in the southern half of the globe to balance this out? Lot of Ocean in this area.. could there be energetic streams of warmer water -Starting- or occuring in these areas. ---------- Yes, I know 'water flows downhill' ;-) the St. Johns is Spring driven 'pumped' from silver springs Fl (i think). -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 11:15:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA00831; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:46:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 13:45:26 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: E&M OU theory Resent-Message-ID: <"3O-Tg2.0.tC.7oeCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With many electro-magnetic devices being suggested here as overunity I thought it would be worthwhile to give the necessary condition for overunity operation assuming standard E&M theory. I will treat the magnetic problem and the electric result may be obtained by subsituting E and D for H and B. I will take the conservation of energy to be d/dt(energy density) + div(energy flux) = B dot d/dt(H) - J dot E with d denoting partial derivitives and B and H the usual vectors and J the current density. This formula is valid for the time average in the case of the machine being operated in a cycle. In that case we have TA d/dt(B dot H) = 0 = TA (B dot d/dt(H)) + TA(H dot d/dt(B)) and TA (B dot d/dt(B)) = 1/2 TA d/dt(B dot B) where TA denotes the time average. Since we have B = H + 4Pi M with M the magnetization any different combination of these three vectors may be used for the magnetic power density. The six combinations are S = B dot d/dt(H) S = - H dot d/dt(B) S = - 4Pi H dot d/dt(M) S = 4Pi M dot d/dt(H) S = - 4Pi B dot d/dt(M) S = 4Pi M dot d/dt(B) Where S is the magnetic power density. The object is to develope a machine such that S is positive upon time averaging over one cycle. This is simple to do as any machine that converts electrical power into mechanical power through magnetic force exerted on materials with high permeability will have an efficiency of 0 or 2 if we neglect friction, electrical resistance and magnetic hysterisis loss. Since we would never use the 0% efficiency devices then we conclude that all motors that are used are about 200% efficient. Of course this is not the case. The problem is that mechanical power is manifested as electromagnetic power on the microscopic scale and physicists and electrical engneers have zero understanding of this fact. This problem is far too complex to discuss here so let me just give the actual energy conservation that is used in practice. It is d/dt(energy density) + div(energy flux) = B dot D/Dt(H) - J dot EMF where EMF is the electromotive force vector and D/Dt is the convective time derivitive given by D/Dt = d/dt + v dot grad with v the velocity of the magnetic material being moved. These two substitutions, the convective time derivitive for the partial time derivitive and EMF for E, are done without justification other than it seems to work. The above conservation of energy equation is nevertheless correct and it can be properly justifyied. I will skip over that part and go to the free energy power term which is now given by S = B dot D/Dt(H) and the free power P will be P = 1/T Integral{B dot D/Dt(H)}dt where the time integral is over one cycle period T of the machine. Changing variables of integration P is given by P = 1/T Integral{B dot D(H)} Here the line integral over H would be closed so that we can use Stokes' theorm to obtain P = 1/T Integral{[Curl(H) B] dot DA} where the integral in DA is over the area in H space enclosed by the H line integral. The term [Curl(H) B] is the curl of B in the H coordinates in the frame comoving with the magnetic material. For example the z component is [Curl(H) B](z) = d B(x) / d H(y) - d B(y) / d H(x) So we see that free energy comes from a non-zero value of [Curl(H) B] and a non-zero area in the integral over DA . Right away we see that devices such as the TEP that apply a magnetic field only in one direction cannot be overunity. Also all isotropic magnetic materials would have a zero [Curl(H) B] and the same is true for all linear magnetic materials. Making a short table of possible candidates for ou we have device possible ou? TEP no SMOT yes Flux Gate no Joe Newman yes N-machine no I Will add other candidated to the table upon request. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 15:25:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16755; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:06:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:06:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199710012206.PAA12430 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "vortex" Subject: Re: EM O/U theory Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:14:34 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i0n3S.0.d54.fbiCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Hi Larry! > > Thanks for yet another thoughtful article about my favorite subject, > possible holes in EM theory. Unfortunately I am better at finding articles > and books about such holes than I am at understanding them once I have them > :-), but I am working on that end of things. > > > > > > Where S is the magnetic power density. The object is to develope a > > machine such that S is positive upon time averaging over one cycle. > > This is simple to do as any machine that converts electrical power into > > mechanical power through magnetic force exerted on materials with high > > permeability will have an efficiency of 0 or 2 if we neglect friction, > > electrical resistance and magnetic hysterisis loss. Since we would > > never use the 0% efficiency devices then we conclude that all motors > > that are used are about 200% efficient. > > There is an interesting article that relates to this by Peter Graneau from > the standpoint of "action at a distance" theory called, as I remember, > "The Mystery of the Induction Motor" or something to that effect. The > thesis being that induction motors work far BETTER than they should > according to standard EM theory, which is the opposite of your idea. I can > dig it up if you are interested. > > > > Of course this is not the case. The problem is that mechanical power > > is manifested as electromagnetic power on the microscopic scale and > > physicists and electrical engneers have zero understanding of this > > fact. This problem is far too complex to discuss here > > I would like to see the references to this, so at some future point I can > read and understand them. > > > > > with v the velocity of the magnetic material being moved. > > These two substitutions, the convective time derivitive for the partial > > time derivitive and EMF for E, are done without justification other than > it > > seems to work. > > Seems like you are quite sceptical of the theory you yourself are using to > critique other work. Thanks for your honesty in this regard. > > > > > > So we see that free energy comes from a non-zero value of [Curl(H) B] and > a > > non-zero area in the integral over D A . Right away we see that devices > such > > as the TEP that apply a magnetic field only in one direction cannot be > > overunity. Also all isotropic magnetic materials would have a zero > [Curl(H) > > B] and the same is true for all linear magnetic materials. > > The TEP is an investigational program rather than a dogma, or even a > theory. We have gotten some interesting results. There is no unanimity > within our group as to what those results mean. Two results are clear at > this time: > > 1) When the current is switched off in a bifilar coil, there is an > inductive response. This response is like typical back EMF, but where is > the collapsing magnetic field that it is a response to? We have several > mutually contradictory theories about this. > Is the magnetic field still present in the coil, in some sort of masked > state? Is it possible that the output energy is the result only of the > parametric change in the inductance of the coil when the current is > switched off? > If the second situation is the correct one, or if it is a factor in the > action of the device, then the TEP would appear to fulfill some of your > requirements for a working device. If I understand correctly, (mostly from > your earlier theory post) your requirements WOULD allow for the possibility > of a parametric system to be overunity, if the parametric change required > less energy to effect than would be generated by it. > > 2) The back EMF is not affected by the ON time of the noninductive current > pulse. It appears only to depend on the trailing edge transient, which is > like the typical inductive situation, except, again, for the apparent > absence of a magnetic field. With the current pulses we are using now, the > circuit is FAR from overunity and as a group we are NOT making claims to > that effect. Our experimental program as a group, inasmuch as we have > decided upon one, is to keep shorterning the pulse length and see if we can > break the O/U barrier. > > > Making a short table of possible candidates for ou we have > > > > device possible ou? > > > > TEP no > > SMOT yes > > Flux Gate no > > Joe Newman yes > > N-machine no > > > > I Will add other candidates to the table upon request. > > Tameer Hohnstein in Germany and I are working on a device we call a > magnetic diode that MIGHT fit your requirements. > It consists of a sheet of a Ni-Fe alloy cut into a narrow waist. In an o/u > device it would serve as a flux gate, but not operating on the same > principles as other proposed gates. A permanent magnet would be at one end > of the waist, with an inductor at the other end. Thus the field lines must > pass through the waist. A current is ALSO passed through the waist so the > current and the field lines are parallel. The material is chosen so that > it has a very nonlinear effect on the current. Metaphorically, the field > of the core current "plugs up" the waist so the main field cannot get > through to the inductor, leading to an induced voltage. There is little > effect on the current because the change in inductance in the "waist core" > is not in the same direction as the current (the waist size must be chosen > so there is not a major change of resistance however). This is based on > studies of the Coler device. Ther are other alternative arrangements using > a current through the material of a core that seem promising along these > lines. > I don't expect an opinion from you about this idea because it requires some > specialized knowledge of the metallurgy of this particular alloy to > evaluate. I only present it because of its seeming conformance to your > "specs". > > Finally: > Have you thought about working in the other direction? Taking your > analysis and converting it into a machine design? > If you know what could make a working machine it seems a fairly > straightforward next step to define materials, geometries, and processes to > realize it. > > Fred > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 19:18:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id SAA11246; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:53:18 -0700 (PDT) From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971001215131_-1060925752 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: (MER) Scanning Werjefelt documents tomorrow Resent-Message-ID: <"BeCIO1.0.Vl2.9wlCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, I will be scanning documents tomorrow and hope to have them on the web as soon as Stefan Hartman can fine time to put them on a web site. Thanks, Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 1 19:27:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id TAA15010; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:14:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: vortex Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE SPINDIZZY In-Reply-To: <199709301215.HAA21996 natasha.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MxHyQ2.0.Sg3.mAmCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Scott Little wrote: > At 11:06 PM 9/29/97 -0700, Fred Epps wrote: > > >Now, before anyone > >protests, I understand that the angular momentum changes as the masses move > >to the outside edge but this does not change the total energy of the disc... > > Yes it does. The KE of any element of a spinning wheel is given by: > > E = (0.5)(m)(r^2)(w^2) > > where m = mass, r = radius, w = angular velocity. To check this, replace > r*w with v (tangential velocity) and you get: > > E = (0.5)(m)(v^2) > > the familiar linear version of the KE eqn. > > So, provided you have a drive motor to maintain w constant, as the masses > move outward (i.e. as r increases) the KE of the spinning structure increases. > > Have you ever wondered why an ice skater can increase the rate of his spin > by pulling in his arms tightly? If your statement above was correct, the > skater's spin rate would NOT increase! Power is measured in speed times torque. The skater would speed up, but his or her torque would decrease. When the skaters arms are reached out, speed decreases but torque increases. The totat energy of skater would stay the same. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Pete From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 05:25:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA17967; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:07:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 05:07:57 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:07:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710021207.HAA07843 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex From: Scott Little Subject: Re: THE SPINDIZZY Resent-Message-ID: <"IlGHj2.0.eO4.SwuCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:14 PM 10/1/97 -0400, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: >Power is measured in speed times torque. The skater would speed up, but >his or her torque would decrease. When the skaters arms are reached out, >speed decreases but torque increases. The totat energy of skater would >stay the same. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Pete, you've got the idea right but the words wrong. Since the skater is just a spinning body with no drive motor, there is no torque and thus no power. Its ENERGY that is conserved and each element of mass in the skater's body has .5*m*r^2*w^2 of energy where w is angular velocity (rpm*2*pi) and r is radius. If the skater moves some of his mass inward to smaller r, w must increase to conserve energy. Scott Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 06:22:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA01101; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:09:40 -0400 From: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Subject: Very Sad News Sender: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: VORTEX Message-ID: <199710020911_MC2-228D-38F9 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"RQbYE2.0.6H.wsvCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians, I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. As you all know, Chris has given so much to this forum and in so many other ways to cold fusion, new energy, and the quest for scientific understanding of this mysterious universe. We deeply mourn the passing of this fantastic human being. Full confirmed details are not in yet, but this is what we have been told: Chris died at home on the early afternoon of October 1 (Wednesday) in Nottingham, England. He was pronounced dead at the hospital, but he may already have been dead when found by a friend and relatives. The cause of death is reported to be a sudden, massive heart attack. We were not aware of any previous history of heart problems. In recent weeks, we understand, he had been making a successful effort to give up pipe-smoking. Both Jed Rothwell and I will be leaving shortly for the UK to help the Tinsley family and friends and to attend the funeral. There is no date set for the funeral at this time. We will provide further information when it is made available. Chirs Tinsley is survived by his two adult children, Kay and Chris, Jr., and his friend Susan Seddon. Chris's wife Sian had died within the past two years after a long illness. Words cannot describe our grief over this tragedy, but I can assure you that Chris's death will only cause us to redouble the efforts for which Chris Tinsely devoted every measure of the last half-dozen years of his life... For those of you wishing to write tributes, we will consider printing them in the next issue of Infinite Energy. Sincerely, Gene Mallove Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 07:00:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA32637; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:46:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:46:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710021346.IAA14784 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"on6Dt1.0.kz7.uMwCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:09 10/2/97 -0400, Gene wrote: >I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. Damn! damn! damn! Why do the good ones have to go so early!? Chris visited us briefly a couple of years ago and the experience was truly memorable. We meshed like we'd been working together for years. He had a no-frills way of looking at physics and the business of measuring things that was simply beautiful. Ad Astra, Chris. Please take with you the full measure of our respect and admiration. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 07:05:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA01696; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:52:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:52:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:48:55 -0400 From: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Subject: Tinsley Funeral Sender: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: VORTEX Message-ID: <199710020951_MC2-228D-6E53 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"LiQPz3.0.LQ.iSwCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexians, More information just in on the funeral of Chris Tinsley. It will be held on Thursday, October 9th at 12:30 p.m. at Saint Leonard's Church in the Wollaton district of Nottingham. The coronor has confirmed that the cause of death was a heart attack. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 07:27:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA06840; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:14:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:14:47 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971002091429.ZM23479 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:14:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: Scott Little "Re: Very Sad News" (Oct 2, 8:47am) References: <199710021346.IAA14784 natasha.eden.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"6I-I61.0.jg1.MnwCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > At 09:09 10/2/97 -0400, Gene wrote: > >I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved > >colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. I can only say to know of Chris Tinsley through Vortex, but this is most distressing news to hear. I came to look forward to Chris' input and viewpoints. His was a refreshing voice of reason and clarity. There will most definitely be a void. It is truely a great loss to all. My sincerest condolences to his colleagues, friends, and family. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 07:35:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id HAA13233; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 07:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710021424.KAA19922 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:53:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Very Sad News Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710020911_MC2-228D-38F9 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"xFtlw3.0.hE3.AwwCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2 Oct 97 at 9:09, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:09:40 -0400 > From: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> > Subject: Very Sad News > > I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved > colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. As you all know, Chris has given > so much to this forum and in so many other ways to cold fusion, new > energy, and the quest for scientific understanding of this mysterious > universe. We deeply mourn the passing of this fantastic human being. Gene, I only knew Chris from his writing on Vortex and Infinite Energy -- but even so his character as a great person came through. You were fortunate to know him as collaborator and friend. His spirit will live beyond him, in the study of Nature's deep mysteries -- and curiosities! Bob F. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 08:41:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA22258; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3433AE1D.72001919 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 17:22:21 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Very Sad News X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x4oRw.0.fR5.uxxCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am so sad to hear it. You knew him better than me. What I could say is this is big loss for open minded society and for the vortex of course. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 08:49:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA21164; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:37:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3433BF7E.2308 lcia.com> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:36:30 -0400 From: HAMILTON LCIA.COM (DANNY HAMILTON) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News References: <199710020911_MC2-228D-38F9 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OIGCw1.0.aA5.v-xCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene, Please tell the family that there were great many of us who knew Chris through his writings and that he will be missed. Danny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 09:05:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA28579 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:05:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: Keasy aol.com Thu Oct 2 09:05:23 1997 Received: from emout34.mail.aol.com (emout34.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.17]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA28551; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:05:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Keasy aol.com Received: (from root localhost) by emout34.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA27268; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Old-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971002115800_231927306 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE SPINDIZZY X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: Hello all, Regarding the ice skater who speeds up his spin by pulling in his arms, this is really quite interesting. By pulling in (and doing work) with his arms, he is adding to his rotational energy, but his angular momentum remains constant. And the decrease in his angular inertia, I , requires that w increase substantially for the momentum Iw to remain constant. But when he lets out his arms some of his rotational energy is converted into pulling his arms, just as gravitational energy goes into our legs as we walk down a hill. But his angular momentum does not change, I has increased, so he slows down. BUT, this brings up a problem that has bothered me for years. When we do walk down a hill, and the same amount of energy goes into our legs as we had to use to struggle UP the hill, WHERE??? does all that energy go? (It can't just disappear, it has to appear in some form somewhere). Anyone know, or any suggestions? Ken Keasy aol.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 09:19:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA29008; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:07:50 -0700 (PDT) From: atech ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971002121027.0075359c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:10:27 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"sX7hi3.0.357.IRyCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's always a shock and disappointment when someone of Chris' caliber passes on. My sincerest condolences to the Tinsley family. I attended Chris's Takahashi magnet motor talk three years ago at the Cold Fusion Conferance. To have actually tested a working OU device made me realize that these advanced physics applications are possible here and now. My only comfort in this situation is to know that the secrets of the universe are now laid before Chris for his enjoyment. Who knows, perhaps Chris is still in the position to give us a good elbow in the ribs when required to steer us true. At 09:09 AM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Vortexians, 4> >I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 10:10:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA07735; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:49:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:49:50 -0700 Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 09:49:34 -0700 From: Thomas.Tamoria GAT.COM (Tom Tamoria) Subject: Re: Very Sad News X-Sender: tamori mail.sd.gat.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <01IOBS8JPZK28Y5I1O GAT.COM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Resent-Message-ID: <"LK3Ye3.0.nu1.j2zCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dear Vortexians, > >I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. As you all know, Chris has given >so much to this forum Having only lurked with an occasional private post, I never met or spoke with Chris. However, I've always enjoyed his posts and developed a respect for his opinions. I will miss his presence on Vortex. My sincere condolence to his family. Tom Tamoria From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 10:34:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA10453; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3433D7F4.2E6E interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 13:20:52 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News References: <199710020911_MC2-228D-38F9 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Y0UkP1.0.FZ2.uUzCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Goodbye, Chris. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 10:37:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA10826; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:22:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971002131938_-328705112 emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"rnbPl1.0.0f2.uWzCq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chris Tinsley represented what was the best in our quest for unravelling the mysteries of Nature. Alwasys probing, not accepting anything at face value, and never losing a sense of humor generated by his real respect for where we stand in respect to all that Nature has yet to reveal. We will sorely miss his input, but attempt to follow the standard he set as a colleagues's colleague. I salute you, Chris. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 12:04:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07589; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:50:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:50:59 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971002144803_-696094131 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com Subject: (MER) Contact info. on Butch LaFonte Resent-Message-ID: <"JyPEy1.0.Gs1.Gq-Cq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, Should anyone need to contact me by means other than the internet: Butch LaFonte 119 Robert E. Lee Av. S.W. Leeds, AL.. 35094 USA Phone 1-205-699-5364 Central Time zone Fax - Same From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 12:14:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA08996; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:57:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:57:50 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971002185740.006c6be4 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 14:57:40 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"NVH2w3.0.7C2.iw-Cq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> writes: >Dear Vortexians, > >I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. As you all know, Chris has given >so much to this forum and in so many other ways to cold fusion, new >energy, and the quest for scientific understanding of this mysterious >universe. We deeply mourn the passing of this fantastic human being. Terrible news. Chris Tinsley was a great man. He will be missed by me and many others, no doubt. Jed writes: >Chris was 54 years old. For those who believe in an afterlife, such as myself, I wish Chris well on the other side. And I wish him a good rebirth, when it finally happens. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 13:47:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA10331; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3434227F.5AB8 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 22:39:03 +0000 From: Jean-Paul Biberian Reply-To: biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News References: <199710020911_MC2-228D-38F9 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IBy7g1.0.CX2.8K0Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am so sorry I did not know Chris personally. This is probably a great experience I missed. Every time I hear someone's death, this reminds me that nothing is guarantied, and that I should enjoy my life today, and not tomorrow when things will become better. All of us at Vortex we fight hard to understand the laws of nature, and get them accepted by the rest of the world. But in this endeavour a good sense of humor as Chris had is more than welcome. Chris will not be here to send us new messages, but we will remember him. Jean-Paul Biberian biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr tel : (33) 476 82 67 51 Grenoble tel : (33) 491 72 35 45 Marseille (voice mail) fax: (33) 476 82 67 67 Grenoble From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 13:59:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA13513; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971002205134.008fd158 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 16:51:34 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"sZMmX3.0.-I3.jb0Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:09 AM 10/2/97 -0400, Gene wrote: >Dear Vortexians, > >I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. As you all know, Chris has given >so much to this forum and in so many other ways to cold fusion, new >energy, and the quest for scientific understanding of this mysterious >universe. We deeply mourn the passing of this fantastic human being. > >Gene Mallove > It was a shock to read this sad news. I enjoyed reading Chris's messages to Vortex. He will be missed. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 14:06:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA16066 for billb@eskimo.com; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-From: robert visor.com Thu Oct 2 14:06:20 1997 Received: from sherman.shentel.net (sherman.shentel.net [204.111.1.58]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16040 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dacha (pm06a25.shentel.net [204.111.3.121]) by sherman.shentel.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA01496 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:19:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199710022119.RAA01496 sherman.shentel.net> From: "robert" To: Subject: Re: Very Sad News Old-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:04:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: >>I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >>colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. My contacts with Chris were always interesting and enlightening. His works with my Associates in Russia were exemplary as to the way human beings should work together to resolve the problems that confront us all. He leaves us I fear, at a time when the world most needs people of his understanding and intelligence. This natural coarse of events that we must all endure is saddest when one is using their life in the search of knowledge that may be used to boost humanity to another level. I will not say goodbye to you Chris, but instead "See you later" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 14:06:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA31670; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:47:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:47:40 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Scudder, Henry J." To: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Cc: Vortex-L Subject: RE: Very Sad News Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:46:00 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kxPOj1.0.lk7.hX0Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris' very dry sense of humor, and good sense, and his ability to defuse an emotionally charged argument will be sorely missed by this group. He had the ability to describe the essence of whatever was under discussion. Hank Scudder From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 14:18:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA03108; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:10:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:10:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199710022123.RAA01564 sherman.shentel.net> From: "dacha" To: Subject: Fw: Very Sad News Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:08:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1008.3 X-MimeOle: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.1008.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GEvrM2.0.Um.Dt0Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>>I am extremely upset, but I must report the sudden death of our beloved >>>colleague and dear friend Chris Tinsley. My contacts with Chris were always interesting and enlightening. His works with my Associates in Russia were exemplary as to the way human beings should work together to resolve the problems that confront us all. He leaves us I fear, at a time when the world most needs people of his understanding and intelligence. This natural coarse of events that we must all endure is saddest when one is using their life in the search of knowledge that may be used to boost humanity to another level. I will not say goodbye to you Chris, but instead "See you later" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 14:47:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA20530; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: E&M OU theory In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zH9VS3.0.i05.cF1Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Larry Wharton wrote: > With many electro-magnetic devices being suggested here as overunity > I thought it would be worthwhile to give the necessary condition for > overunity operation assuming standard E&M theory. I will treat the > magnetic problem and the electric result may be obtained by subsituting > E and D for H and B. I will take the conservation of energy to be > > > d/dt(energy density) + div(energy flux) = B dot > d/dt(H) - J dot E > > > with d denoting partial derivitives and B and > H the usual vectors and J the current > density. This formula is valid for the time average in the case of the > machine being operated in a cycle. In that case we have > > > TA d/dt(B dot H) = 0 = TA (B > dot d/dt(H)) + TA(H dot > d/dt(B)) > > > and > > > TA (B dot d/dt(B)) = 1/2 TA > d/dt(B dot B) > > > where TA denotes the time average. Since we have B = > H + 4Pi M with M the > magnetization any different combination of these three vectors may be > used for the magnetic power density. The six combinations are > > > S = B dot d/dt(H) > > S = - H dot d/dt(B) > > S = - 4Pi H dot d/dt(M) > > S = 4Pi M dot d/dt(H) > > S = - 4Pi B dot d/dt(M) > > S = 4Pi M dot d/dt(B) > > > Where S is the magnetic power density. The object is to develope a > machine such that S is positive upon time averaging over one cycle. > This is simple to do as any machine that converts electrical power into > mechanical power through magnetic force exerted on materials with high > permeability will have an efficiency of 0 or 2 if we neglect friction, > electrical resistance and magnetic hysterisis loss. Since we would > never use the 0% efficiency devices then we conclude that all motors > that are used are about 200% efficient. > > Of course this is not the case. The problem is that mechanical power > is manifested as electromagnetic power on the microscopic scale and > physicists and electrical engneers have zero understanding of this > fact. This problem is far too complex to discuss here so let me just > give the actual energy conservation that is used in practice. It is > > > d/dt(energy density) + div(energy flux) = B dot > D/Dt(H) - J dot EMF > > > where EMF is the electromotive force vector and > D/Dt is the convective time derivitive given by > > > D/Dt = d/dt + v dot grad > > > with v the velocity of the magnetic material being moved. > These two substitutions, the convective time derivitive for the partial > time derivitive and EMF for E, are done > without justification other than it seems to work. > > The above conservation of energy equation is nevertheless correct and > it can be properly justifyied. I will skip over that part and go to > the free energy power term which is now given by > > > S = B dot D/Dt(H) > > > and the free power P will be > > > P = 1/T Integral{B dot D/Dt(H)}dt > > > where the time integral is over one cycle period T of the machine. > Changing variables of integration P is given by > > > P = 1/T Integral{B dot D(H)} > > > Here the line integral over H would be closed so that we > can use Stokes' theorm to obtain > > > P = 1/T Integral{[Curl(H) B] dot DA} > > > where the integral in DA is over the area in H space > enclosed by the H line integral. The term [Curl(H) B] is > the curl of B in the H coordinates in the frame comoving with the > magnetic material. For example the z component is > > > [Curl(H) B](z) = d B(x) / d H(y) - d B(y) / d H(x) > > > So we see that free energy comes from a non-zero value of [Curl(H) > B] and a non-zero area in the integral over > DA . Right away we see that devices such as the TEP that > apply a magnetic field only in one direction cannot be overunity. Also > all isotropic magnetic materials would have a zero [Curl(H) > B] and the same is true for all linear magnetic materials. > Making a short table of possible candidates for ou we have > > > device possible ou? > > TEP no > > SMOT yes > > Flux Gate no > > Joe Newman yes > > N-machine no > > > I Will add other candidated to the table upon request. what about Greg Watson's DNMEC effect flux gate generator? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 14:53:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA21676; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:43:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:39:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"pD_4h1.0.cI5.aL1Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I appreciate the true words about Chris many of you have posted. I find myself a little too perturbed by this just now to add much that's coherent. You know, I keep thinking - "he shouldn't have tried to quit smoking that damn pipe!" - that sort of thing. And I feel so very bad for his family, and especially Soo. This is a very cruel blow to many of us personally, and though a few of you out there might not fully appreciate it, it's a cruel blow to the whole larger purpose to which this list is dedicated. Chris could bring a wonderfully balanced perspective to even very emotional, confusing, and controversial issues with his trademark insight and dry wit in a way that I'm afraid no one will be able to replace. It's terrible to lose such a precious light in a field so desperately in need of illumination, and a crushing loss to those who had the special honor of knowing him as a friend. Gnorts, Chris. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 16:18:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA27337; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:05:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:05:02 -0700 Message-ID: <343452A2.1B02 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 19:04:18 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3hdTZ.0.yg6.SY2Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > This is a very cruel blow to many of us personally, Thanks Rick. I was having trouble expressing it but that's exactly how I feel. I've found it difficult to understand why I feel so pained and cheated at the premature loss of someone I knew only through his writings. I considered Chris a mentor. He re-introduced me to CF not by telling me it was real but by asking me why I was so sure it was dead. His spirit caused me to take up the sword against those who attack a thought without looking at the evidence. He came to my rescue when I got over my head on the Science Forum with -db-. He was a superior knight in the art of verbal jousting, taking down an opponent with scathing logic in such a manner that many never realized they were mortally wounded. He taught me to question everything and believe nothing but have faith in my knowledge. Those who knew him personally must be suffering greatly. My heart goes out to his children and dear Soo and the remaining two Musketeers. But, I trust he now looks upon us with that knowing smirk and distinctly British . > Gnorts, Chris. Indeed. God bless you, Sir Tinsley. I am a better person for having known you. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 16:42:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA31246; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:21:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:21:11 -0700 Message-ID: <34341F63.42F7 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 17:25:39 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu Subject: [Fwd: 99.8% Reduction of Th in LENT-1 Kit by 3rd Party] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"cy0kI.0.2e7.cn2Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.4]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA24949 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user12.pahrump.com [205.226.146.112]) by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA11673; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:49:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199710020549.WAA11673 pahrump.com> From: "Robert Bass" To: "Gary Vesperman" , "Donald Carlson" , "Toby Grotz" , "Ross Tessien" , "Mark D. Hugo" , "Joe Champion" , "Scott Chubb" , "Nicholas Palmer" <70374.3025 compuserve.com>, "Gordon Brightsen" , "Bill Ward" , "Charles McNeill" , "Douglas Morrison" , "David A. Scott" , "Ed Wall" , "Grant Hudlow" , "Gary Steckly" , "Horace Heffner" , "Joseph N. Ignat" , "James Bowery" , "James A. Carr" , "James Powell" , "C. D. Johnson" , "Kerry S. Lane" , "Kirk Shanahan" , "Scott Little" , "Larry Vardiman" , "Tom Van Flandern" , "Mike McKubre" , "Martin Kendig" , "Dave Nagel" , "James T. Lo" , "Peter Glueck" , "Paul Koloc" , "Hal Puthoff" , "Mike Windell" , "Robert Huggins" , "Rich Murray" , "Robin van Spaandonk" , "Susan Blackburn" , "Talbott Chubb" , "Gus P. Andrews" , "Charles G. Beaudette" , "Robert M. Wood" , "Steve Okerlund" , "Tim Mitchell" , "John Strumila" , "Mike Carrell" , "Frederick J. Sparber" , "Michael J. Schaffer" , "Steven E. Jones" , "Harold Aspden" , "Sandra Ball" Subject: 99.8% Reduction of Th in LENT-1 Kit by 3rd Party Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:45:04 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCCEBB.A8B26100" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCCEBB.A8B26100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The attached photo is that of a mostly copper flake that used to be radioactive thorium metal. This is not a joke or hoax. At our web site you will find independent lab test data to support this statement. Please consider a visit to http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp THIS WILL ELIMINATE RADIOACTIVE WASTE! Thanks for your time, Stan Gleeson Cincinnati Group ============================================= [PRELIMINARY! Subject to possible later clarification.] New 3rd Party CG/LENT-1 Kit Transmutes 99.8% Th One of the first purchasers of a LENT-1 Kit from the CG has reported informally on their first Radwaste Remediation test. I cannot find out if any of the inadequecies of the CG's initial protocol (used at PNNL), such as failure to weigh the solute before & after, etc. have been corrected, because the Principal Scientist is out of town for a week. However, I believe that his colleague holds a doctorate in Nuclear Physics from a very prestigious (foreign) University [and may have been on the faculty there], so I expect that they had noted & thereby benefited from the problems already aired on the Internet. What I know is that a reputable chemical and mineralogical service tested the "before" and "after" fluids by 3 different assay techniques. Presumably (unlike the PNNL-tested cell) this better-manufactured cell had no leak, because I cannot imagine that they were not alerted by the inadequacies of the initial CG protocol to specifically watch out for such a problem. Stan Gleeson says that only if the exact protocol (for 30 minutes) published in "Infinite Energy" is followed, does Ti and Cu always appear. If run longer, apparently the Th goes to light elements. Apparently this CG-supplied LENT-1 Kit was run for "hours." Only 12 elements were looked for, before & after. Fe, Na, Ka, were assayed by Flame AA. Si, Al, Ca, Mo, Ti, Ba, P were assayed by ICP. Cu and Th were assayed by ICP/MS. The big news is that, in ppm, the "before" liquid had Th at the 4,300 ppm level; afterwards, at only the 9.5 ppm level. Thus, an apparent 99.8% reduction of Thorium. The interior walls of the cell were "mildly radio-active" after the experiment, but this had all disappeared "within a week" (which is consistent with the majority of the CG's results). We understand that a formal Report will be forthcoming in due course. Sincerely, Bob Bass Dr. Robert W. Bass, Registered Patent Agent 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics] Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending Innoventech, Inc. Authorized Distributor, Cincinnati Group LENT-1 Kits demonstrating Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) P.O.Box 1238, Pahrump, NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX (702) 751-0932/0739 Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213 e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com ------=_NextPart_000_01BCCEBB.A8B26100 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Cuflake.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Cuflake.jpg (JPEG Image) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Cuflake.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAAEAYABgAAD//gAfTEVBRCBUZWNobm9sb2dpZXMgSW5jLiBWMS4wMQD/2wCE ACgcHiMeGSgjISMuKygwPWZCPTg4PX1ZXkpmlIKcmZGCj4yjuOvHo67esIyPzP/P3vP6////nsX/ /////+v///0BKy4uPTU9eEJCeP2oj6j9/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39 /f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f/EAaIAAAEFAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBQYHCAkKCwEAAwEBAQEB AQEBAQAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoLEAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAAAX0BAgMABBEFEiExQQYTUWEHInEU MoGRoQgjQrHBFVLR8CQzYnKCCQoWFxgZGiUmJygpKjQ1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFlaY2Rl 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Resent-Message-ID: <"_9hJW1.0.oC2.Pr2Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I don't want to stir the pot, and assume that a few of you have received Bass' post regarding Chris' death being a murder. I am reserved and will continue to believe that it was not, but am curious, how old a person was Chris? The fact of the matter is that we are working on things in this forum which will one day undermine a 5 trillion dollar per year industry and wreak havoc on numerous national economies and corporate fortunes. So it behoves us, I think, to take such notions seriously while understanding that the odds are very low that any of us are in real danger. The fact is, the establishment doesn't believe there is any validity, so there is thus no threat. And second, there is no single person or group working on these things, so the death of any of us will not alter the eventual success of these technologies. That said, I would like to know what the people who are very close to Chris and who have first hand knowledge of the circumstances of finding him have to say about their thoughts on this point, if any of them are able to talk about it at any time in the future. I do not expect any response to this, and do not want to carry on a debate between those of us with no personal information about things that may or may not indicate any wrong doing. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 16:43:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA29943; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:16:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:16:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:15:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199710022315.QAA30732 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"30Xto.0.mJ7.xi2Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley had a sharp, clever mind and wide eyed perception of things that are, and things that may be. I will miss his input and express my condolences to his family and close friends. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 16:45:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA00490; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:31:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:31:14 -0700 Message-ID: <343421CC.6B84 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 17:35:56 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu Subject: [Fwd: Fw: Apparently ONE GRAM of Th transmuted this time!] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"LcJQw2.0.Z7.1x2Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.4]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28435 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user01.pahrump.com [205.226.146.101]) by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00251; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:22:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199710021922.MAA00251 pahrump.com> From: "Robert Bass" To: "Edmund Storms" , "Paul Evans" , "Jan Kucherov" <76002.1473 compuserve.com>, "Fred Jaeger" , "Robert D. Eagleton" , "Stan Gleeson" , "Flavio Fontana" , "Mary Manning" , "Geoff Schumacher" , "Brian Greenspun" , "Keith Rogers" , "Mike O'Callaghan" Cc: "Sandra Ball" , "Harold Aspden" , "Steven E. Jones" , "Michael J. Schaffer" , "Frederick J. Sparber" , "Mike Carrell" , "John Strumila" , "Tim Mitchell" , "Steve Okerlund" , "Robert M. Wood" , "Charles G. Beaudette" , "Gus P. Andrews" , "Talbott Chubb" , "Susan Blackburn" , "Robin van Spaandonk" , "Rich Murray" , "Robert Huggins" , "Mike Windell" , "Hal Puthoff" , "Paul Koloc" , "Peter Glueck" , "James T. Lo" , "Dave Nagel" , "Martin Kendig" , "Mike McKubre" , "Tom Van Flandern" , "Larry Vardiman" , "Scott Little" , "Kirk Shanahan" , "Kerry S. Lane" , "C. D. Johnson" , "James Powell" , "James A. Carr" , "James Bowery" , "Joseph N. Ignat" , "Horace Heffner" , "Gary Steckly" , "Grant Hudlow" , "Ed Wall" , "David A. Scott" , "Douglas Morrison" , "Charles McNeill" , "Bill Ward" , "Gordon Brightsen" , "Nicholas Palmer" <70374.3025 compuserve.com>, "Scott Chubb" , "Joe Champion" , "Mark D. Hugo" , "Ross Tessien" , "Toby Grotz" , "Donald Carlson" , "Gary Vesperman" , "Vyacheslav Panov" Subject: Fw: Apparently ONE GRAM of Th transmuted this time! Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:19:43 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Robert Bass > To: Eric Wyse > Subject: Apparently ONE GRAM of Th transmuted this time! > Date: Thursday, October 02, 1997 12:12 PM > > Eric, > Thanks for your good letter & suggestions for improved protocol. > Stan tells me that he has checked with Rob L and according > to the data sheets they have, the new test involved 10 times as much > Th (which is why the data was in ppm rather than ppb), i.e. the > new test seemingly involved 99.8% transmutation of ONE GRAM of Th. > The radiation in the walls _was_ measured, but not reported > numerically to me. What I hear now is that right after the test the > walls were "very hot" but that after a week they were indistinguishable > "from background." > The CG knows that the initial experiment at PNNL failed (for > one reason or another, including the possibility of a leak, though they > cannot understand why that did not show up as they were monitoring > the voltage, etc. by their 30-minute protocol) and that it was certainly > not due to any fault of personnel at PNNL, to whom everyone is very > indebted and grateful for having _donated_ their valuable time! > Stan says (in support of his present certainty that "10 times > more Th was used) that this explains why the new testers reached > 370 degrees Fahrenheit (whereas the CG has never gone above 300 > degrees F), and why they ran for "hours" instead of 30 minutes. > I myself am not an experimentalist, but I certainly sympathize > with anyone who feels that sometimes "the only way to get it done > _right_ is to do it yourself!" Accordingly if you guys at PNNL would like > to have a second try at it (using your own protocol), I am sure that I > can successfully ask the CG to offer to send you a new cell with > new parts which hopefully fit together better than the one you have. > Best personal regards, > Bob > Dr. Robert W. Bass, Innoventech, Inc. > Authorized Distributor, CG LENT-1 RR Kits > P.O.Box 1238, Pahrump, NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX (702) 751-0932/0739 > Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213 e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 13:28:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA07493; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:20:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:24:36 -0800 To: Re: eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"_oT_m2.0._q1.Q80Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am saddened by the news of Chris Tinsley's sudden and unexpected death. I greatly appreciated his sincerity and his commitment to learning, especially his commitment to learning by experiment. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 10:19:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA13454; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:04:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:04:36 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:37:03 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Obituary Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710021241_MC2-2292-AFB6 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"pXMuX2.0.8I3.ZGzCq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I am deeply sorry to announce that my dear friend Christopher Tinsley died yesterday, October 1, 1997, of a heart attack. I depended upon Chris every day for help, suggestions, editing, humor and inspiration. He was a contributing editor to our magazine, and one of the best hands-on experimental scientists in the field of cold fusion. He was a fine chemist and electrical engineer. He made major contributions to the design of first generation computers in England in the 1960s. A disk drive he worked on is now exhibited near the Babbage Difference Engine at the London Science Museum. He said the sight of it made him feel like a fossil. Scott Little wrote: "Chris visited us briefly a couple of years ago and the experience was truly memorable. We meshed like we'd been working together for years. He had a no-frills way of looking at physics and the business of measuring things that was simply beautiful." Chris was 54 years old. His wife Sian died in December 1994. He is survived by a son, Chris Jr.; a daughter, Kay; and a fiancee, Susan Seddon. The funeral will be held Thursday, October 9th at 12:30 p.m. at Saint Leonard's Church in the Wollaton district of Nottingham, England. - Jed Rothwell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 17:30:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA09198; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:11:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 17:11:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:07:27 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Chris Tinsley Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199710022010_MC2-229A-9B6F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"mIpc_1.0.eF2.rW3Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Nowadays I spend my time more in lurking and enjoying the ups and downs of Vortex. In past years, when I had a workshop, I was fairly active in building various 'ou' models, none of which worked, but which gave Chris and I a great deal of fun and headaches. Chris was a realist and an honest scientist, and I grew to rely on his encyclopaedic recall of funny bits of knowledge about things and people. We were glad to see the end of his facial fungus (sorry Gene). He was a good model-maker as well as being a wiz in chemistry and computer science and his jokes were well worth repeating. I will always be grateful to Jed for introducing me to Chris after I had heard Pons deliver his lecture with the video demo of the 'boiling CF' electrolysis, and put out a query in the Sci-math forum of Compuserve. That was in '89 and things have moved on a bit since then. I met his son Chris Jnr. only once at their home, and have not met Kay or Soo, but I send them my heartfelt condolences and the hope that they will carry on in the tradition set by their tough dad - don't let the bastards grind you down. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 19:35:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA29772; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:22:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:22:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley In-Reply-To: <199710022010_MC2-229A-9B6F compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AW5XS.0.0H7.lR5Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, rats! I knew Chris since about 1990, on cserve. There's going to be a big empty place in the world now. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 20:48:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA19196; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 20:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34345B01.1517 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 21:40:01 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Back to the beginnings...] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"3zs8j.0.nh4.rV6Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.215.255.13!news-xfer.atlantic.net!news.transport.com!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.idt.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!new s.bbnplanet.com!news-feed1.tiac.net!news-master.tiac.net!not-for-mail From: conover tiac.net (Harry H Conover) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Back to the beginnings... Date: 27 Sep 1997 03:51:54 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Message-ID: <60hvsq$f0o news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: sunspot.tiac.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950726BETA PL0] Here's a copy of the paper that started it all... enjoy! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- OBSERVATION OF COLD NUCLEAR FUSION IN CONDENSED MATTER S. E. Jones, E. P. Palmer, J. B. Czirr, D. L. Decker, G. L. Jensen, J. M. Thorne, and S. F. Taylor Department of Physics and Chemistry Brigham Young University Provo, Utah 84602 and J. Rafelski Department of Physics University of Arizona Tucson, Arizona 85721 March 23, 1989 Fusion of istopic hydrogen nuclei is the principal means of producing energy in the high-temperature interior of stars. In relatively cold terrestrial conditions, the nuclei are clothed with electrons and approach one another no closer than allowed by the molecular Coulomb barrier. The rate of nuclear fusion in molecular hydrogen is then governed by the quantum-mechanical tunneling through that barrier, or equivalently, the probability of finding the two nuclei at zero separation. In a deuterium molecule, where the equilibrium separation between deuterons (d) is 0.74 A, the d-d fusion rate is exceedingly slow, about 10E-70 per D molecule per second. [1] 2 By replacing the electron in a hydrogen molecular ion with a more massive charged particle, the fusion rate is greatly increased. In muon-catalyzed fusion, the internuclear separation is reduced by a factor of approximately 200 (the muon to electron mass ratio), and the nuclear fusion rate correspondingly increases by roughly eighty orders of magnitude [1]. Muon-catalyzed fusion has been demonstrated to be an effective means of rapidly inducing fusion reactions in low- temperature hydrogen isotopic mixtures [2]. A hypothetical quasi-particle a few times as massive as the electron would increase the cold fusion rate to readily measureable levels, about 10E-20 fusions per d-d molecule per second [1]. Our results imply that an equivalent distortion on the internuclear hydrogen wavefunction can be realized under certain conditions when hydrogen isotopic nuclei are loaded into metallic crystalline lattices and other forms of condensed matter. We have discovered a means of inducing nuclear fusion without the use of either high temperatures or radioactive muons. We will present direct experimental results as well as indirect geological evidence for the occurrence of cold nuclear fusion. DETECTION OF COLD FUSION NEUTRONS We have observed deuteron-deuteron fusion at room temperature during low-voltage electrolytic infusion of deuterons into metallic titanium or palladium electrodes. The fusion reaction 3 d + d -> He (0.82 MeV) + n (2.45 MeV) (1a) + is evidently catalyzed as d and metal ions from the electrolyte are depostited at (and into) the negative electrode. Neutrons having approximately 2.5 MeV energy are clearly detected with a sensitive neutron spectrometer. The experimental layout is portrayed in Figure 1. We have not yet obtained results regarding the parallel reaction d + d -> p (3.02 MeV) + t (1.01 MeV) (1b) as this requires different measuring procedures. However, it can be presumed that the reaction (1b) occurs at a nearly equal rate as the reaction (1a), which is usually the case. The neutron spectrometer, developed at Brigham Young University over the past few years [3], has been crucial to the identification of this cold fusion process. The detector consists of a liquid organic scintillator (BC-505) contained in a glass cylinder 12.5 cm in diameter, in which three lithium-6-doped glass scintillator plates are embedded. Neutrons deposit energy in the liquid scintillator via collisions and the resulting light output yields energy information. These, now low-energy neutrons are then scavenged by lithium-6 nuclei 6 4 in the glass plates where the reaction n + Li --> t + He results in scintillations in the glass. Pulse shapes from the two media differ so that distinct signals are registered by the two photomultiplier tubes (whose signals are summed). A coincidence of signals from the two media with 20 microseconds identifies the neutrons. An energy calibration of the spectrometer was obtained using 2.9 and 3.2 MeV neutrons, generated via deuteron-deuteron interactions at 90 degrees and 0 degrees, respectively, with respect to the deuteron beam from a Van de Graaf accelerator. The observed energy spectra show a broad structure which implies that 2.45 MeV neutrons should appear in the multi-channel analyzer spectrum in channels 45-150. Stability of the detector system was checked between data runs by measuring the counting rate for fission neutrons from a broad-spectrum californium- 252 source. We have performed other extensive tess proving that our neutron counter does not respond in this pulse height range to other sources of radiation such as thermal neutrons. Background rates in the neutron counter are approximately 10E-3 1/s in the energy region where 2.5 MeV neutrons are anticipated. By comparing energy spectra from gamma and neutron sources we have determined that nearly all of the background stems from accidental coincidences of gamma-ray events. Improvements in the shielding and gamma-ray rejection were pursued throughout the experiments, resulting in significant reduction in background levels. During the search for suitable catalytic materials, we developed the following (unoptimized) prescription for the electrolytic cells. The electrolyte is a mixture of 160 g deutermium oxide (D O) plus various 2 metal salts in 0.2 g amounts each: FeSO . 7H O, NiCl . 6H O, 4 2 2 2 PdCl , CaCO , Li SO . H O, NaSO . 10H O, CaH (PO ) . H O, 2 3 2 4 2 4 2 4 4 2 2 TiOSO . H SO . 8H O, and a very small amount of AuCN. 4 2 4 2 (Our evidence indicates the importance of co-deposition of deuterons and metal ions at the negative electrode.) The pH is adjusted to pH < 3 with HNO . Titanium and palladium, intially selected because 3 of their large capacities for holding hydrogen and forming hydrides, were found to be effective negative electrodes. Other metals receiving preliminary tests include lanthanum, nickel, iron, copper, zirconium, tantalum, and lithium-aluminum hydride. Individual electrodes consisted of approximately 3 g purified "fused" titanium in pellet form, or 0.5 g of 0.25 mm thick palladium foils, or 5 g of mossy palladium. Typically 4-8 cells were used simultaneously. The palladium pieces were sometimes re-used after cleaning and roughening the surfaces with dilute acid or abrasives. Hydrogen bubbles were observed to form on the Pd foils only after several minutes of electrolysis, suggesting the rapid absorption of deuterons into the foil; oxygen bubbles formed at the anode immediately. Gold foil was used for the positive electrodes. DC power supplies provided 3-25 volts across each cell at currents of 10-500 mA. Correlations between fusion yield and voltage, current density, or surface characteristics of the metallic cathode have not yet been established. Small jars, approximately 4 cm high x 4 cm diameter, held 20 ml of electroylte solution each. The electrolytic cells were placed on or alongside the neutron counter, as shown in Figure 1. The cells are simple and doubtless far from optimum at present. Nevertheless, the present combination of our cells with the state-of-the-art neutron spectrometer is sufficient to establish the phenomenon of cold nuclear fusion during the electrolytic infusion of isotopic hydrogen into metals. Figure 2 displays the energy spectrum obtained under conditions described above, juxtaposed with the background spectrum. Assuming conservatively that all deviations from background are statistical fluctuations, we scale the background counts by a factor of 0.46 to match the foreground counts over the entire energy range (Figure 2). A feature in channels 45-150 still rises above background by nearly four standard deviations. This implies that our assumption is too conservative and that this structure represents a real physical effect. By re-scaling the background by a factor of 0.44 to match the foreground level in regions outside this feature, the difference plot (Figure 3) is obtained. It shows a robust signal centered at channel 100 of over five standard-deviation statistical significance. A Guassian fit to this peak yields a centroid at channel 101 and a sigma of 28 channels. This is precisely where 2.5 MeV fusion neutrons should appear in the spectrum according to our calibration. The fact that a significant signal appears above background with the correct energy for d-d fusion neutrons ( 2.5 MeV) provides strong evidence that room temperature nuclear fusion is indeed occurring in our electrolytic catalysis cells. FUSION RATE DETERMINATION It is instructive to scrutinize the fourteen individual runs which enter into the combined data discussed above. Figure 4 displays, for each run, the ratio of foreground count rate in the 2.5 MeV-energy region with background rates obtained for each run. Background rates were improved upon during the experiments, so we plot the data in terms of foreground-to-background ratios rather than absolute rates. Run 6 is particular noteworthy, having a statistical significance of approximately 5 standard deviations above background. Fused titanium pellets were used as negative electrodes with a total mass of about 3 g. The neutron production rate increased after about one hour of electrolysis. After about eight hours, the rate dropped dramatically as shown in the follow-on run 7. At this time, surfaces of the Ti electrodes showed a dark gray coating. An analysis using electron microscopy with a microprobe showed that the surface coating was mostly iron, deposited with deuterons at the cathode. The same phenomenon of having the neutron signal drop after about eight hours of operation appears in run 13 follwed by run 14. Runs 13 and 14 used the same eight electrochemical cells, and again the negative electrodes developed coatings after a few hours of electrolysis. These observations suggest the importance of surface conditions on the cold fusion process. Indeed, wide variations in surface conditions are anticipated in the operating electrochemical cells with numerous ionic species, and these variations may account for the fluctuations in the signal level which are evident in Figure 4. In particular, the observed "turning off" of the signal after 8 hours may account for a low signal-to-background ratio in runs 1 and 3, in that a few-hour signal may have been overwhelmed after a long (20 hour) running time. When run 10 started with rates substantially above background, we stopped the run and removed half of the electrochemical cells as a test. The neutron production rate dropped off as expected (run 11). In determining the statistical significance of the data, we included runs 1, 3, 7, 11 and 13, even though we see a systematic reason for their low foreground-to-background ratios as explained above. Run 8, shown in Figure 4, was inadvertently lost from the magnetic storage device and could not be included in Figures 2 and 3. This does not change our conclusions. Extensive efforts were made to generate fake neutron signals by using various gamma and neutron sources. We also turned auxiliary equipment on and off; the Van de Graaf accelerators were kept off. The signals persisted as shielding was moved and as electronics modules were tuned and even replaced. Background runs taken using operating electrochemical cells similar to those described above but with H O replacing the D O were featureless. No net counts above 2 2 background when standard cells were used with no current flowing. The cold nuclear fusion rate during electrolytic fusion is estimated specifically for run 6 (Figure 4) as follows: [ R ] / [ d ] Fusions per deuteron pair = [ --- ] / [ M x --- ] (2) [ e ] / [ 2M ] where the observed fusion rate R = (4.1 +- 0.8) x 10E-3 fusions/s; the neutron detection efficiency, including geometrical acceptance, is calculated using a monte carlo neutron-photon transport code [4] to be e = (1.0 +- 0.3)%; M = 4x10E22 titanium atoms for 3 g of titanium; and the deuteron-pair per metal ion ration d/(2M) = 1 is based on the assumption that nearly all tetrahedral sites in the titanium lattice are occupied, forming the gamma-TiD hydride. Then 2 the estimated cold nuclear fusion rate by equation (2) is lambda 10E-23 fusions/deuteron pair/second (3) f If most fusions take place near the surface or if the titanium lattice is far from saturated with deuterons, or if conditions favoring fusion occur intermittently, then the inferred fusion rate must be much larger, perhaps 10E-20 fusions/d-d/second. We note that such a fusion rate could be achieved by "squeezing" the deuterons to half their normal (0.74 A) separation in molecules. That such rates are now observed in condensed matter suggests "piezonuclear" fusion as the explanation [1]. A possible cause is that quasi-electrons form in the deuterated metal lattic having an effective mass a few times that of a free electron. Isotopic hydrogen is known to accumulate at imperfections in metal lattices [5] and local high concentrations of hydrogen ions might be conducive to piezonuclear fusion. Since we have not seen any evidence for fusion in equilibrated, deuterated metals or compounds such and methylamine-d dueteriochloride or ammonium-d chloride, we conclude 2 4 that non-equilibrium conditions are essential. Electrolysis is one way to produce conditions which are far from equilibrium. It seems remarkable that one can influence the effective rate of fusion by varying external parameters such as pressure, heat and electromagnetic fields, but just such effects are confirmed in another form of cold nuclear fusion; muon-catalyzed fusion [6]. Such variations are naturally encountered in the geological environment where heat, pressure, and contact potentials will generate serverly non-equilibrium conditions. GEOPHYSICAL CONSIDERATIONS The observation of evidence for cold d-d fusion in the laboratory has profound geophysical implications. Thermal effects in the earth and 3 the distribution of He and tritium can be explained in part by the fusion reactions (1) and 3 p + d -> He + gamma (5.4 MeV) (4) Deuterium was incorporated in the earth during its formation. The current abundance in sea water is about 1.5x10E-4 deuterons per proton. Water is carried down into the earth's upper mantle at converging plate margins, and seawater is transported as deep as the Moho at spreading regions [7]. Estimates of water subduction suggest that a water mass equal to the ocean mass is cycled through the mantle in about 1-billion years [7]. Thus, 1.4x10E43 deuterons are cycled through the mantle in 3x10E16 s. Since each p-d fusion releases 5.4 MeV (8.6x10-13 J), we calculate that a heat flux of 750 mW/(m*m), averaged over the earth, would result if all deuterium fused at the rate at which it is supplied by subduction. This is more than ten times the estimate of the actual flux of 60 mW/(m*m) [8]. Thus, geological p-d fusion could possibly contribute to the observed heat flux, the high temperatures of the earth's core and provide an energy source for plate tectonics. The foregoing data allow a geological fusion rate lambda to be f calculated. We assume a first-order rate equation for p-d fusion: dN = lambda N dt, or lambda = (dN/N)dt. The fraction (dN/N) f f is the ratio of the number of fusions which take place to the number of atoms available. It is also the rate of fusion divided by the rate of supply of deuterons; thus, dN/N is equal to the actual heat flux from the earth divided by the possible heat flux so that -1 lambda = (60/750)/3x10E16 s = 3x10E-18 s (5) f Consider next the possibility that the localized heat of volcanism at subduction zones is supplied by fusion. As much as 10E6 J/kg is required to turn rock into magma, and this must be supplied from a local source of energy. Subducting rock contains about 3 percent water [7], or 3x10E30 deuterons/kg. If the time available for melting is equal to the time required for a plate to travel down a slant distance of 700 km at a speed of 2.5 cm/year, about 10E15 s, the inferred fusion rate is: lambda = (10E6 J/kg)/(3x10E20 d/kg x 8.6E10-13 J/fusion x 10E15 s) f lambda = 4x10E-18 fusions/d/s (6) f This requires only about 0.3 percent of the available nuclear fuel. The limit on the available heat is therefore the fusion rate constant, rather than the scarcity of fuel. While some of the earth's heat must certainly derive from several sources, "cold" geological nuclear fusion could account for steady- 3 state production of considerable heat and He in the earth's interior. 3 4 High values of the He/ He ratio are found in the rocks, liquids, and gases from volcanoes and other active tectonic regions [9]. 3 Primordial He will be present from the formation of the earth [9], but some may be generated by terrestrial nuclear fusion. The discovery of cold nuclear fusion in the laboratory, with a rate constant comparable to that derived from geologic thermal data, supports our hypothesis. Based on this new concept, we predict that some tritium should be produced by d-d fusion in the earth (see equation 1). Since tritium 3 decays according to t -> He + beta with a 12-year half-life, detection of tritium in volcanic emissions would imply cold-fusion production of tritium. This is supported by the following observations. A tritium monitoring station was operated at Mauna Loa on Hawaii Island from August 1971 to the end of 1977. We have found strong correlations between tritium detected at Mauna Loa and nearby volcanic activity in this period of time. Figure 4 displays data compiled by Ostlund for HT gas measured at the Mauna Loa station in 1972 [10]. Similar data taken at Miami, Florida, are provided for comparison. A striking spike in the tritium level is clearly seen in the February-March 1972 Mauna Loa data. Ostlund notes that these significant tritium readings over a several-week period have not been previously understood; in particular, the timing and shape of the peak is inconsistent with hydrogen bomb tests in Russia five months earlier [10]. However, this signal is coincident with a major eruption of the Mauna Ulu volcano [11] 40 km to the southeast. Furthermore, winds in March 1972 carried volcanic gases northwest, towards the Mauna Loa station and on towards Honolulu 200 km away: "Trade winds [from the northeast] were infrequent and the southerly flow that replaced them occasionally blanketed the state with volcanic haze from an eruption on Hawaii Island ... High particulate matter measurements in Honolulu confirmed the northward spread of haze from the Mauna Ulu Volcano eruption on Hawaii Island." [12] This remarkable set of cirumstances permits us to estimate the amount of tritium released during the February-March 1972 eruption of Mauna Ulu. Based on the distance to the Mauna Loa station and average 8 mph winds [12], we estimate that on average 100 curies of tritium were released per day for 30 days. An accidental release of this magnitude of man-made tritium sustained for several weeks on a nearly uninhabited island is highly unlikely. We conclude that this volcanic eruption freed tritium produced by geological nuclear reactions. Other HT data from the Mauna Loa station, such as the high reading in the latter half of 1972, are also coincident with volcanic activity, although a tritium-releasing bomb test also occurred in Russia in late August. A major spike in the atmospheric HT observed near Hawaii in Dec 1974 - June 1975 [10] coincides with another large volcanic eruption on Hawaii Island, but the significance is again obscured by H-bomb tests. Finally, no significant deviations in HT reading are noted in 1976 or 1977 [10] when no volcanic activity is noted, except for "gentle" activity at Kileau on September 17, 1977 [13]. OTHER EVIDENCES FOR COLD FUSION Further evidence for cold nuclear fusion in condensed matter comes 3 4 from studies of He and He in diamonds and metals. Using laser- slicing of diamonds, H. Craig (private communication) has measured the 4 3 4 absolute concentrations of both He and He. He was found to be smoothly distributed through the crystal as if it were derived from 3 the environment. On the other hand, He was found to be concentrated in spots implying in-situ formation. Cold piezonuclear p-d or d-d fusion provides a plausible explanation for these data. 3 Concentration anomalies of He have also been reported in metal foils 3 [14]. The spotty concentrations of He suggest cold piezonuclear 3 fusion as the origin of the observed He. Note that electrolytic refining of the metals in deuterium-bearing water could have provided conditions for cold nuclear fusion. Among several possible explanations, the authors [14] suggest an "analog" of muon catalysis. We think they were close to the mark! Cold nuclear fusion may be important in other celestial bodies besides earth. Jupiter, for example, radiates about twice as much heat as it receives from the sun [1]. It is interesting to consider whether cold nuclear fusion in the core of Jupiter, which is probably metallic hydrogen plus iron silicate, could account for its excess heat. Heat is radiated at an approximate rate of 10E18 W, which could be produced by p-d fusions occurring at a rate of 10E20(1/s) [1]. Assuming a predominately hydrogen core of radius 4.6x10E9 cm, having a density = 10 g/(cm*cm*cm) and a deuteron/proton ratio of roughly 10E-4, we deduce a required p-d fusion rate of lambda = 10E-19 f fusions/deuteron/second--in remarkable agreement with cold fusion rates found in terrestrial conditions. CONCLUSIONS A new form of cold nuclear fusion has been observed during electrolytic infusion of deuterons into metals. While the need for off-equilibrium conditions is clearly implied by our data, techniques other than electrochemical may also be successful. We have begun to explore the use of ion implantation, and of elevated pressures and temperatures mimicking geological conditions. If deuteron-deuteron fusion can be catalyzed, then the d-t fusion reaction is probably favored due to its much larger nuclear cross section. Thus, while the fusion rates observed so far are small, the discovery of cold nuclear fusion in condensed matter opens the possibility at least of a new path to fusion energy. We acknowlege valuable contributions of Douglas Bennion, David Mince, Lawrence Rees, Howard Vanfleet and J. C. Wang of Brigham Young University, and of Mike Danos, Fraser Goff, Berndt Muller, Albert Nier, Gote Ostlund, and Clinton Van Siclen. We especially thank Alan Anderson for advice on the data analysis and Harmon Craig for continuing encouragement and for use of his data on diamonds before their publication. The research is supported by the Advanced Energy Projects Division of the U.S. Department of Energy. REFERENCES 1. Van Siclen, C. D. & Jones, S. E. "Journal of Physics G. Nucl. Phys." 12, 213-221 (1986). 2. Jones, S. E. "Nature" 321, 127-133 (1986); Rafelski, J. & Jones, S. E. "Scientific American" 257, 84-89 (July 1987). 3. Jensen, G. L., Dixon, D. R., Bruening, K. & Czirr, J. B. "Nucl. Inst. and Methods" 200, 406 (1984); and paper in preparation. 4. MCNP: Monte Carlo Neutron and Photon Transport Code, CCC-200. Available from Radiation Shielding Information Center, Oak Ridge National Laboratory (Version 3). 5. Bowman, R. C. Jr. in "Metal Hydrides" (ed. G. Bambakides) 109-144 (New York, Plenum, 1981). 6. Jones, S. E., et al. "Physical Review Letters" 51, 1757-1760 (1983). 7. Fyfe, W. S., Price, N. J., & Thompson, A. B. "Fluids in the Earth's Crust" (Elsevier, New York, 1978). 8. Chapman, D. S. & Pollack, H. N. "Earth and Planet Sci. Lett" 28, 23 (1975) 9. Craig, H., Lupton, J. E., Welhan, J. A., & Proveda, R. "Geophys. Res. Lett." 5, 897 (1978); Lupton, J. E., & Craig, H. "Science" 214, 13 (1981); Mamyrin, B. A. & Tolstikhin, L. N., "Helium Isotopes in Nature (Elsevier, Amsterdam, 1984). 10. Ostlund, H. G. & Mason, A. S. Atmospheric Tritium 1968-1984, Tritium Laboratory Report No. 14, University of Miami, Miami, Florida; Ostlund, H. G., private communication. 11. Bullard, F. M. "Volcanoes of the Earth", 2nd ed., (Univ. Texas Press, Austin, 1984). 12. U.S. Dept. of Commerce, "Climatological Data, Hawaii" 68, 29 (1972). 13. Smithsonian Institution, "Volcanoes of the World", (Stroudsburg, P. A., Hutchinson Ross Publishing Co., 1981). 14. Mamyrin, B. A., Khabarin L. V. & Yudenich, V. S. "Sov. Phys. Dokl." 23, 581 (1978). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 21:31:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA25358; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:18:33 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:10:58 -0600 Subject: Hey You Geysers, is Old Faithful Over-Unity? Message-ID: <19971002.221113.3222.4.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-10,12-18 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"y2Ti41.0.7C6.M87Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Had a discussion with a professor of geology yesterday while the "prof" was waiting at my house for the tow truck to come and get his disabled "utility" vehicle. :-) Ain't nothing like a captive audience. We were going over different aspects of "hydrino" formation with water in contact with hot "potassic" or "sodic" feldspar rocks. Yellowstone is made of these. Is the heat from magma-geothermal, or is it from Hydrino formation and energy release, caused by contact of groundwater with the hot alkali feldspars? Never saw a profesor taking so many notes. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 22:01:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA21024; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:46:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:46:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:40:07 -0600 Subject: Exploding Rock Experiment Message-ID: <19971002.224022.3222.5.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,13-21 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"em2VA.0.Q85.TY7Dq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, Following up on Dan Quickert's comment on not using rocks from a stream for campfires, I recall an experiment that was set up at Sandia Labs in the 60's for measuring the energy released from a stressed ceramic material. The approach used semi-circles of spaced cardboard about a foot high and a foot apart on the floor of a large room. When the ceramic was given a blow with a punch by a technician behind a blast-shield the fragments collected from each "trough" were sized and weighed so as to calculate the stored up energy from the total kinetic energy of the fragments. Seems like a good way to see if Dan's admonition of exploding rock hazards might be more hydrino action than supercritical water energy. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 22:40:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA02969; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 08:22:20 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <34348f26.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: very sad news Resent-Message-ID: <"chLjO2.0.Gk.TB8Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians, Chris not wandering more, Chris not writing more his unique, clever, charming messages to us..I cannot believe this! Chris not more traveling to interesting places, not more phoning me when cold fusion is victorious (like in the Power Gen demo's day) !? I cannot accept this, he was so young, so strong ("we British like to fight")-told he, so full of life. I had the great privilege to meet with Chris when we went to Yuri Potapov and we became good friends. He was (I wrote three times 'is'!) a great man, intelligent, creative, knowing the secrets of past and future, with an immense treasure of universal culture in his mind. And, never forget this, he was a GOOD man. Very rare quality nowadays. I remember I have seen tears in his eyes when he told me about the dreadfully unjust fate of his wife, about this terrible tragedy, the beloved person dying step by step because sodium ions replace potassium ions in her nervous cells..and medicine is powerless..Alas, Chris had a broken heart, but we hoped it is healing. Later, when he met an other wonderful, great lady I was convinced that Chris will have a long, good life and he will enjoy the victory of our cause, a victory which owes him so much. And said the Raven "Nevermore!" No, shut up ugly, black bird! Chris's soul, his inimitable spirit, the values of his life, his friends are alive. We will continue your work and will try to do it better, smarter! But we will so awfully miss you! My sincerest condoleances to you Kay ( I remember when we spoke at the phone during our travel with Daddy in Moldova), to you Chris Junior, to you dear Susan, so talented and admirable in your writings--special thanks to you for making our friend's last days happy! LA REVEDERE DRAGA CHRIS, ODIHNESTE-TE IN PACE! Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 2 23:54:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA09056; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34349635.6052 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 23:52:37 -0700 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News References: <199710020911_MC2-228D-38F9 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nvewq.0.PD2.gB9Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Like many others on Vortex, I was deeply saddened by the loss of Chris, even though I knew him mainly from his messages here. To search for a fitting tribute, I looked through my file of Vortex messages to find something in his own words. In a message on December 4, 1996 he closed his message with the quote: "History takes longer to live than it does in books." And just last week he wrote: "There is an unhealthy tendency toward 'tabloid science', with people wanting instant gratification, immediate resolution of questions. Life isn't like that, and neither is science." It is a shame that history moved too slowly for Chris to see the results of his work widely accepted. Hopefully he has inspired others to have the patience to continue the work until the final chapter is written. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 00:08:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA12843; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710030702.AAA16864 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"BhGqy1.0.V83.QX9Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, I just logged on after being away two days and saw the news about Chris. Like many others, I only knew him by his writings here. I just called up all the messages from him that are in my archives, and read through them. So much right-on logic, and to-the-point clarity; all suffused with his good-natured wit. I always looked forward to reading his posts. He has contributed much to our understanding, and his presence will be sorely missed. Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 00:32:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA15141; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710030727.AAA17627 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Exploding Rock Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"prld52.0.Ui3.su9Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick, >When the ceramic was given a blow with a punch by a technician behind a >blast-shield the fragments collected from each "trough" were sized and >weighed so as to >calculate the stored up energy from the total kinetic >energy of the fragments. So, what did they find? >Seems like a good way to see if Dan's admonition of >exploding rock hazards might be more hydrino action >than supercritical water energy. > >Regards, Frederick Sounds like a good research project for a troop of Scouts. I'd do it myself, but getting too old to be carrying scales and a blast shield into the wilderness :-) Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 04:56:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id EAA00255; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 04:47:37 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 05:41:52 -0600 Subject: Re: Exploding Rock Experiment Message-ID: <19971003.054207.3222.7.fsparber juno.com> References: <199710030727.AAA17627 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-16,18-43 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"QpN352.0.v3.LjDDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 00:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Dan Quickert writes: >Frederick, > >>When the ceramic was given a blow with a punch by a technician behind >a >>blast-shield the fragments collected from each "trough" were sized >and >>weighed so as to >>calculate the stored up energy from the total kinetic >>energy of the fragments. > >So, what did they find? Lots of ceramic fragments,Dan. Unfortunately, I never saw any of the data from the experiments, but it seemed like a clever way to find the stress energy stored in the ceramic lattice. > >>Seems like a good way to see if Dan's admonition of >>exploding rock hazards might be more hydrino action >>than supercritical water energy. >> >>Regards, Frederick > >Sounds like a good research project for a troop of Scouts. I'd do it >myself, >but getting too old to be carrying scales and a blast shield into the >wilderness :-) Me too,Dan. I've been without a phone for the past 8 days and had unsubscribed vortex while I was upgrading to Windows 95 just 5 minutes before a bulldozer took out my phone cable, What a sad day when an Oak sheds a one-ofa-kind Leaf. Regards, Frederick > >Dan > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 06:53:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA23106 for billb@eskimo.com; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:53:31 -0700 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:53:31 -0700 X-Envelope-From: 76570.2270 compuserve.com Fri Oct 3 06:53:28 1997 Received: from arl-img-10.compuserve.com (arl-img-10.compuserve.com [149.174.217.140]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id GAA23082 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:53:28 -0700 Received: (from mailgate localhost) by arl-img-10.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id JAA05825 for vortex-l eskimo.com; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Old-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:49:57 -0400 From: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Subject: Benveniste suit Sender: Gene <76570.2270 compuserve.com> To: VORTEX Message-ID: <199710030952_MC2-22AC-A361 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: Nature October 2, 1997 > > Nobel laureates face libel suits from 'water memory' researcher in Paris. The long-running saga of research on the 'memory of water' has reopened with a splash, with libel suits being filed against three scientists including two Nobel prizewinners -- by Jacques Benveniste, the French researcher who claimed in 1988 to have shown that extreme dilutions of antibody solutions could retain their biological activity (see Nature 333, 816; 1988). The charges are based on statements made by the scientists in January in the newspaper Le Monde which suggested that Benveniste's research may have been fraudulent. > A court battle is now on the cards. This week, lawyers representing two of those being sued. Georges Charpak, who won the Nobel prize for physics in 1992, and his colleague Claude Hennion, from the School of Industrial Physics and Chemistry in Paris -- said they intend to fight the libel charges, first on procedural grounds, but if necessary by investigating Benveniste's research. A spokeswoman for a Paris-based law firm, Kahen and Associates, says that, as a civil servant, Benveniste should have filed a penal suit and not a civil one. If this is confirmed by the court, she adds, it would annul the procedure, and prevent Benveniste from suing again on the basis of the Le Monde articles -- although he could bring new charges on any statements made by the scientists elsewhere. But she adds that, if this first approach fails, the law firm is ready to counterattack in other ways. It could argue that Charpak and Hennion made their statements "in good faith", or seek to prove that Benveniste did indeed commit fraud. > Lawyers representing Francois Jacob, who shared the 1965 Nobel prize for physiology or medicine and is also being sued, were unavailable for comment. > Benveniste describes the attempt to halt the suits on legal grounds as "pathetic", and adds: "It is incredible that a Nobel prizewinner, with the sense of responsibility that this [status] carries, could affirm that his scientific colleague was a fraudster and then try to get off with legal arguments." > Benveniste says that none of the scientists has provided proof of fraud, and he decided to sue to defend his honour and professional integrity. He claims that he wrote to the scientists earlier this year saying that if they retracted the statements he would not take further action, but that he received no reply. He says he will seek damages of FFr100,000 (US$17,000). > The controversy includes Benveniste's more recent research, in which he claims to be able routinely to transmit biological activities to water or cultured cells electronically, to store such signals on computer discs, and to send them over the Internet. > Benveniste, whose laboratory was closed in 1994 by INSERM, the national biomedical research organization, now operates from the privately funded Digital Biology Laboratory at Clamart near Paris. He admits difficulty in raising the laboratory's running costs of FFr100,000 a month, but predicts that "when it takes off it will be the next Microsoft". > > Declan Butler From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 08:42:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA08903; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:27:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:27:36 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971003112616_814551061 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley Resent-Message-ID: <"0NPjH1.0.yA2.cxGDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My most sincere condolences to the family. Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 09:24:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA10825; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:09:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:13:44 -0600 To: "vortex" From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Words from Chris Tinsley..... Resent-Message-ID: <"r4ENA3.0.2f2.wYHDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following is a sample post written by Chris Tinsley from last January 22, 1997 and is indicative of the positive quality and honesty of his thought processes. I thought I would re-post it for the benefit of new list arrivals: "This post is pure prattle, and I apologise in advance for it. I'm just trying to get some kind of a handle on this 'new physics'. And I want very much to avoid the clever stuff, just to look at the basics. "The idea is that we have no 'pull' forces, only 'push' forces. And 'particles' are themselves just manifestations of the 'vacuum energy'. We know that two ships parked close together in choppy seas will be pushed together by the fact that longer waves are excluded from the space between them, and the idea seems to be that this kind of action explains all the forces? "And there is really only one push force? What we see as electrostatic attraction, or gravity, or that which overcomes inertia, are all really the same thing, and analogous to the two ships being pushed together. Magnetic forces are a variation on electrostatic force, seen when a charged mass moves. Mass is just the kinetic energy of the 'particles', which therefore interacts with the vacuum, and charge is something like having spin on the 'particle' - I know I'm misusing terms, but as I understand it mass is something like a 'static' form of energy, or a 'randomised' one, whereas charge is something which has some kind of spin or vector with it? I'm pleased to leave the strong force out of all this for the moment, because I'd be happy with an atomic nucleus which behaves as it does. After all, since Thatcher scrapped that rather nice outfit in the UK which was working on nuclear structure, there doesn't seem to be a huge level of interest in that subject anyway. And just because when you zap a nucleus it produces bits, that doesn't (to me) mean that it contained those bits before it got zapped. "The attribute of mass or charge interacts with the vacuum to produce a distortion in some quality it possesses, and thereby 'shields' another mass or charge from the push which otherwise would be symmetrical? "The anisotropy of space, which appears to fit well the 'curvature' used to describe it in General Relativity, is just a localised distortion (by masses or charges) of its permeability/permittivity ratio? "Now, I've never been thrilled with photons, because there seems to be a breach of the principle of parsimony here. We know matter reacts with em radiation in a quantised manner, but that doesn't seem to me to mean it has to travel in quantised form. And we have to have an infinite variety of photons, to allow for their infinite possible energies. But we then have the problem that light of wavelengths very much greater than the size of an atom will interact with that atom - or the other difficulties which the photoelectric effect and Compton scattering seem to present. "But, hey, I've not seen a quantum treatment of long waves. Like, how do we fit antenna design into quantum theory? How do we count the em quanta coming into that antenna from a 1500m radio transmission? A dipole (leave alone one assisted by the director components of a UHF antenna) picks up much more energy than is incident upon it. Could an atom act as a dipole? Or could nearby atoms act as director sub-antennae? "In the 'new physics', I suppose that em radiation must be a travelling distortion of the natural zp fluctuations. No real 'aether' as such, which was a virtually inelastic fluid, more some kind of bucket-chain with distortions being passed on. Yes, and it could be polarised and all the rest of it. "One problem I have is that I don't see a proper description of all that in 'the new physics'. I can grasp dimly the notion that if a massive body were to pop from nowhere, its 'shielding' effect would propagate in all directions at c, but I'm less happy about the propagation of the similar effects of a changing charge - because that has to have some kind of vector or spin or something. "Can someone tell me how the new physics explains how em propagates? And is this not a matter so fundamental that it should be addressed with some urgency by those who support these ideas? Maybe it has been, but I don't think I've seen an answer yet." Chris Tinsley ___________________________________ While I did not personally know him, I enjoyed the high quality of his thinking and of his stimulating discussions. My most sincere condolences to his family. Evan Soule' From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 10:11:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA28792; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:57:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:57:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:56:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710031656.LAA27109 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: Very Sad News To: 76570.2270 compuserve.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"yLBdm1.0.o17.oFIDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 3, 1997 Gene, Finally got around to checking the internet and shocked to find the sad news about Chris Tinsley. Least expected of him to do this. Please relay my sincere condolences to his family on your trip to the UK. Chris had wanted to get together to talk over the times when this cold fusion business was successfully overcome. My brief acquaintence with him has been an education and enjoyable. The turn of a phrase, a different perspective, a very rational mind, an English approach to humour, the undying belief in cold fusion and having an open mind has been a full contribution to the Vortex conversation and the Infinite Energy effort. The loss is felt by everyone. Thanks you, Chris. Glad to have met you, online (and at Gene's Seminar). I am sure you know the answers now. Tell Gene & Jed. Till we meet 'there': Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 10:39:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA20369; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:14:45 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:25:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Hey You Geysers Message-ID: <19971003.110121.3198.4.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-6 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"mECzp.0.8-4.0WIDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex, If Volcanos and Geysers are doing the Hydrino-CF thing, perhaps some potassic or sodic "bricks" in a pipe pressurized with supercritical water? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 11:58:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA07116; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3434FF0C.DEAB74C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:19:57 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hey You Geysers, is Old Faithful Over-Unity? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19971002.221113.3222.4.fsparber juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z4d5B.0.4l1.0sJDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J Sparber wrote: [snip] > Is the heat from magma-geothermal, or is it from > Hydrino formation and energy release, caused by contact of groundwater > with the hot alkali feldspars? May a statistical study give an answer. The correlation of geyser locations with the locations where the magma is close to the surface. But if the geologic conditions allowing to magma get close to the surface is also allows to hydrino formation or preheating and pressure supplied by the magma is required for the hydrino work, even for 100% correlation will not rule out the hydrino possibility. But lower correlation will credit hydrinos. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 13:01:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06323; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:38:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:38:09 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:34:32 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Cristopher Resent-Message-ID: <"9FGWg2.0.iY1.VcKDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I received this message from Chris Tinsley's fiancee Susan Seddon. She requested that I post this to Vortex. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI ------------------------------------- "Gnorts, I felt I had to place on record to all you Vortexians how much Chris's children and myself appreciate your kind messages of sympathy and support. This is probably one of the saddest episodes in my life. I feel totally lost without him around making his quirky observations and spreading little pearls of wisdom. We used to laugh a lot (at the same time even !!!). I can well understand how much he'll be missed on Vortex - he was a message-poster par excellence. One thing I know would have amused him no end is that his death has generated a conspiracy theory.....I can almost hear cackles of hysterical laughter from "Upstairs". He found the Princess Diana conspiracy speculations highly amusing and, even though he always remained open-minded on just about everything, I think he'd be quite bemused that anyone would consider him a sufficient threat to world order to justify a visit from The Men in Black. I just wish he was around to post a suitable reply, in his own inimitable style, he would have really enjoyed doing that. Perhaps we should all keep a look-out for caustic comments posted via Heaven.com. There has been a change to the arrangements for his funeral. It is still at St Leonards Church, Wollaton but is now at 11.45am then 12.30 pm at Bramcote Crematorium. Anyone who wishes to attend will be very welcome. I'd just like to thank you all again for your kind words, it has been very comforting to me to know that other people in the world also thought he was a wonderful, exceptional and totally irreplaceable man. Love to you all, Soo" From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 08:12:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id HAA27946; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:43:42 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Back to the beginnings... Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710031046_MC2-22AE-53D8 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"sNqsR3.0.aq6.MWGDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex rmforall quotes Harry H Conover: "Here's a copy of the paper that started it all... enjoy! OBSERVATION OF COLD NUCLEAR FUSION IN CONDENSED MATTER S. E. Jones, E. P. Palmer . . . This a deliberate slight by Conover, and a rewrite of history. The Jones *did not* start it all. Cold fusion began with these papers: F. Paneth, K. Peters, Berichte der Deutschen Chemischen Gesellschaft, Vol. 59, 2039, 1926 A. Coehn, Z. Elektrochem., 35 (1929) 676 These inspired: M. Fleischmann, S. Pons, and M. Hawkins, "Electrochemically Induced Nuclear Fusion of Deuterium." J. Electroanalytical Chem., vol. 261, pp 301-308 Jones heard about the upcoming Fleischmann paper and he plagiarized it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 14:26:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA01937; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:09:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:09:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:15:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Off Topic] Cassini Mission & RTG's (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YIzfV3.0.5U.MyLDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 10.13.97 = GO! (again:) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:25:12 -0400 (EDT) From: NASANews hq.nasa.gov To: ekwall2 diac.com Subject: NASA Receives Approval to Launch Cassini Mission Douglas Isbell/Don Savage Headquarters, Washington, DC October 3, 1997 (Phone: 202/358-1547) Matthew Donoghue Department of Energy, Washington, DC (Phone: 202/586-0619) RELEASE: 97-225 NASA RECEIVES APPROVAL TO LAUNCH CASSINI MISSION NASA today received formal approval from the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) to proceed toward the launch of the robotic Cassini mission to explore Saturn and its moon Titan. "NASA and its interagency partners have done an extremely thorough job of evaluating and documenting the safety of the Cassini mission. I have carefully reviewed these assessments and have concluded that the important benefits of this scientific mission outweigh the potential risks," said OSTP Director Dr. John H. Gibbons, who signed the launch approval. NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin said, "I am confident in the safety of the Cassini mission, and I fully expect that it will return spectacular images and scientific data about Saturn, in the same safe and successful manner as the Voyager, Galileo and Ulysses missions." White House launch approval is required by presidential directive due to the type of power source used to provide electrical power for the Cassini spacecraft and its scientific instruments, and the heater units that it carries to keep the spacecraft's instruments and electronics warm in deep space. The Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators (RTGs) and Radioisotope Heater Units used to power Cassini and keep its internal systems warm have been used in previous NASA missions ranging from Apollo to Galileo, and have been approved by five previous administrations ranging from Nixon to Bush. RTGs produce power by the heat generated through the natural radioactive decay of non-weapons grade plutonium dioxide, which is transformed into electricity by solid-state thermoelectric converters. Before Administrator Goldin sent the request for launch approval to OSTP, two separate processes were completed to address the environmental and safety aspects of the mission. NASA completed an Environmental Impact Statement in June 1995 and a supplement in June 1997, as required by the National Environmental Policy Act and NASA policy. Consistent with long-standing Presidential policy, the Department of Energy (DOE) prepared over the past seven years a comprehensive Safety Analysis Report. In addition, an Interagency Nuclear Safety Review Panel, including safety experts from DOE, NASA, the Department of Defense (DOD), the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and a technical advisor from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission conducted a comprehensive evaluation of the safety analysis. This panel was supported by over 50 scientific experts from academia and industry. DOD, EPA and DOE have written to the NASA Administrator confirming that, in their view, the safety analysis conducted for the mission is comprehensive and thorough. Cassini is a cooperative endeavor of NASA, the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Italian Space Agency, or Agenzia Spaziale Italiana. The mission will send a sophisticated robotic spacecraft, equipped with 12 scientific experiments, to orbit Saturn for a four-year period and study the Saturnian system in detail. The ESA- built Huygens probe that will parachute into Titan's thick atmosphere carries another six scientific instrument packages. Saturn is the second-largest planet in the solar system and is made up mostly of hydrogen and helium. Its placid-looking, butterscotch-colored face masks a windswept atmosphere where jet streams blow at 1,100 miles per hour and swirling storms roil just beneath the cloud tops. Previous spacecraft passing by Saturn found a huge and complex magnetic environment, called a magnetosphere, where trapped protons and electrons interact with each other, the planet, rings and surfaces of many of the moons. Although it is believed to be too cold to support life, haze- covered Titan is thought to hold clues to how a primitive Earth evolved into a life-bearing planet. It has an Earth-like, nitrogen- based atmosphere and a surface that many scientists believe probably features chilled lakes of ethane and methane. Scientists believe that Titan's surface is probably coated with the residue of a sticky brown organic rain. The launch of Cassini aboard a Titan IV-B/Centaur launch vehicle is scheduled for 4:55 a.m. EDT on October 13 from Cape Canaveral Air Station, FL. An on-time launch will deliver the Cassini mission to Saturn almost seven years later on July 1, 2004. Cassini's primary mission concludes in July 2008. -end- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 15:10:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA11388; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:48:44 -0400 From: Debbie Subject: Chris, if you're listening... Sender: Debbie To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199710031748_MC2-22B7-DCF9 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"_-q5N1.0.rn2.daMDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians, I never dreamed this would be my first message to this group. Sometimes life is just not fair. I feel personally cheated this week of something = I took for granted. My heart goes out to Chris' family, and especially to Soo. He was a very= special person, and he'll always have a place in my heart. = I want to say my goodbye to Chris here. Thanks for indulging me. Debbie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` There is so much data in our world today, yet so little knowledge. Few people really have a handle on how complex and intriguing this little backwater blue planet is - but those that do change our lives forever. Chris Tinsley was one of those people. I met Chris online about two year= s ago, and we've exchanged messages and ideas ever since. Chris had a uniq= ue way of looking at the world, and a very compelling way of expressing himself so that we could look at it in that way with him. I started my online life as a diehard scientific type, complete with paradigm paralysi= s. If it was in a book, it had to be fact. Chris started me off gently, by= examining logic itself. Then, before I knew it, he had me questioning gravity, then the entire scientific establishment. Chris showed me not only what to question, but how to question it. I attempted to follow him through the maze of cold fusion, and we entered= the field of gravity shielding together, even though he far bypassed me i= n a short time. I've never met anyone that could cut through a field of da= ta and get to the bottom line like Chris could. I originally felt that Chri= s put on an act of humility - but it wasn't humility at all, nor was it an act. He merely realized how truly little he knew about how our world works, even though his knowledge was tremendous. = He was a master of clear thinking and was a teacher in the purest sense o= f the word, when he chose to be. = Meeting Chris this last April in London is an experience I shall never forget. Even though we'd traded messages for so long, we'd never met in person, yet he nodded to me as soon as I sat down to listen to his talk a= t the Fortean Times' Unconvention. With a short response to a simple question I posed, Chris managed to leave me totally speechless in front o= f a roomful of people. His quick wit and oh-so-British sense of humour always kept him two steps ahead of anyone else - except for Soo. I have this feeling that Chris is somewhere right now chuckling at us making such a fuss over him, and laughing with glee as he finally finds t= he answers he's searched for so long. If he could, would he pass that knowledge on to us? No. Chris knew that the journey is more important than the destination. = He loved the quest for knowledge, and he shared that love with so many. = This is his legacy. Thank you, Chris, for opening my eyes to the infinite possibilities out there, and for helping me keep a dream alive when it was nearly extinguished. I haven't forgotten that you promised me a curry one of these days - you never know when I just might show up to collect it. I shall miss you. Debbie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 16:12:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA30914; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:00:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:00:54 -0700 From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <3435173A.644 pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 16:03:06 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Cassini Mission & RTG's (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vjpzr1.0.xY7.baNDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They should use the space teather of the type that burned up on a the shuttle test. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 17:18:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA18474; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343575F8.E74 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 17:47:20 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: 3rd Pty.: 99.8% of ONE GRAM of Th Transmuted!] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"uHlb12.0.PW4.kaODq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.4]) by slovakia.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10733 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user04.pahrump.com [205.226.146.104]) by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA07495 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:54:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199710032054.NAA07495 pahrump.com> From: "rbrtbass" To: "Rich Murray" Subject: 3rd Pty.: 99.8% of ONE GRAM of Th Transmuted! Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:52:09 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 New 3rd Party CG/LENT-1 RR Kit _test_ Transmutes 99.8% of Radioactive Thorium to Stable Elements Quantity apparently ONE GRAM of Th!!! [in Protocol published in "Infinite Energy", vol.3, [Nos. 13/14, subscr'n data on CG website [for ONE-TENTH Gram of Th: [max power used: 300 Watts AC wall-current] [quantity of Thorium transmuted: 0.1 gram] [electricity cost in 30 minutes: 3 cents] [DOE plan for storage in Yucca Mountain will cost $2,500/kilogram PER YEAR for _centuries_ vs estimated CG RR cost $2,000/kilogram ONCE, in (out-of-NV) on-site processing a _single_ time!] One of the first purchasers of a LENT-1 Kit from the CG has reported informally from Salt Lake City, Utah, on their first Radwaste Remediation test. I cannot find out if any of the inadequecies of the CG's initial protocol (used at PNNL), such as failure to weigh the solute before & after, etc. have been corrected, because their Principal Scientist is out of town for a week. However, I believe that his colleague holds a doctorate in Nuclear Physics from a very prestigious (foreign) University [and may have been on the faculty there], so I expect that they had noted & thereby benefited from the problems already aired on the Internet. What I know is that a reputable Chemical & Mineralogical Service tested the "before" and "after" fluids by 3 different assay techniques. Presumably (unlike the PNNL-tested cell) this better-manufactured cell had no leak, because I cannot imagine that they were not alerted by the inadequacies of the initial CG protocol to specifically watch out for such a problem. Stan Gleeson says that only if the exact protocol (for 30 minutes) published in "Infinite Energy" is followed, does Ti and Cu always appear. If run longer, apparently the Th goes to light elements. Apparently this CG-supplied LENT-1 Kit was run for "hours." Only 12 elements were looked for, before & after. Fe, Na, Ka, were assayed by "Flame AA.." Si, Al, Ca, Mo, Ti, Ba, P were assayed by "ICP." Cu and Th were assayed by "ICP/MS." The big news is that, in parts per million (ppm), the "before" liquid had radioactive Th_232 at the 4,300 ppm level; afterwards, at only the 9.5 ppm level. Thus, an apparent 99.8% reduction of Thorium (which in Nature takes about 45 Billion Years to 99% transmute to stable elements). The interior walls of the cell were "mildly radio-active" [or "quite 'hot' ", see below] after the experiment, but this had all disappeared "within a week" (which is consistent with the majority of the CG's results). We understand that a formal Report will be forthcoming in due course. Sincerely, Bob Bass ======================================================= Response From Eric Wyse of PNNL: Bob -- we already know that the Th tends to plate on the electrodes, so the fact that 99.8% is missing in the original solution is not earth-shattering. The true test is to take the entire cell and gamma count it before and after using the same geometry. That's what would be convincing to us over here. If you counted THE ENTIRE CELL before, then ran the experiment, then counted after the experiment using the same conditions as the 'before' and THEN got 99.8% reduction, that would be very compelling indeed. What you've listed here doesn't impress me -- the walls were 'slightly radioactive' (hardly a quantitative measurement), and the activity 'disappeared' within a week. These sound like cursory, uncontrolled experiments. If you can confirm this data with a CLOSED CELL, I think that would cause ears to perk up. -Eric ======================================================= Eric, Thanks for your good letter & suggestions for improved protocol. Stan tells me that he has checked with Rob L and according to the data sheets they have, the new test involved 10 times as much Th (which is why the data was in ppm rather than ppb), i.e. the new test seemingly involved 99.8% transmutation of ONE GRAM of Th. The radiation in the walls _was_ measured, but not reported numerically to me. What I hear now is that right after the test the walls were "very hot" but that after a week they were indistinguishable "from background." The CG knows that the initial experiment at PNNL failed (for one reason or another, including the possibility of a leak, though they cannot understand why that did not show up as they were monitoring the voltage, etc. by their 30-minute protocol) and that it was certainly not due to any fault of personnel at PNNL, to whom everyone is very indebted and grateful for having _donated_ their valuable time! Stan says (in support of his present certainty that "10 times more Th was used) that this explains why the new testers reached 370 degrees Fahrenheit (whereas the CG has never gone above 300 degrees F), and why they ran for "hours" instead of 30 minutes. I myself am not an experimentalist, but I certainly sympathize with anyone who feels that sometimes "the only way to get it done _right_ is to do it yourself!" Accordingly if you guys at PNNL would like to have a second try at it (using your own protocol), I am sure that I can successfully ask the CG to offer to send you a new cell with new parts which hopefully fit together better than the one you have. Best personal regards, Bob ======================================================= Dr. Robert W. Bass, Registered Patent Agent 29,130 [ex-prof Physics] Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending Innoventech, Inc. Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g. Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000 P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739 Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213; e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com ======================================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 20:38:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA06907; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:24:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:24:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3435C685.5767 mediacity.com> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 20:31:01 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mitchell Swartz CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Aenertia, Aether and Anomalous Aenergy ....] References: <3.0.1.32.19970924232743.006ceb2c world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qgddP3.0.Uh1.ASRDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, Re: "The aether-words are cute, but there has been as little evidence (to me, and if you have it my email address is below) for aether as there is for ZPE (excepting the miniscule zero point energy of materials at zero degrees K which is real)." The aether is just another word for light or the electromagnetic continuum. We only observe spectra which 'set-off' or are 'absorbed' by our senses or our instumentaions. We don't record the bulk of it, which passes through, under and around us. We live in a cosmic light sea.  Truly, as you say, there is no evidence for, and certainly no 'reasoning' behind, the 10^90th inflated ZPE of Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff. [Except the timeless ploy that nature is inaccessible to humanity at large, only 'comprehensible' by the current batch of 'church' autocrats.] Aether or aenertia is prerequisite to, and more general than, 'energy' -- which is the positive-valued quantized-structure subset thereof. Add in the non-positive aether flux, and the non-quantized, and we add about a factor of ten aenertial (mass-energy) density to the cosmos. Adequate for a stable 'steady-state' of continuous creation of energy from aenertia, and matter from both -- balanced by equal amounts of decay back into the aenertial. nature is neither hidden, nor perverse; it takes humanity to create those qualities. Millennium all of this is described in some detail in my newly completed paper, "A New Study in Scarlet" (New Hydrogen Atom) -- if you'd like a copy, send me a note From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 20:52:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA09958; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:41:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:41:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710040340.UAA14374 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"_O8oy3.0.VR2.ihRDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sincerest condolences to Chris Tinsley's family and friends. His words of wisdom will be missed here on earth. He now join's the great ortor's of the past "Upstairs". Till we meet 'there': Peace on Earth, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 21:04:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA12784; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:53:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3435CD55.49FD mediacity.com> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 21:00:05 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Stefan Marinov, by Robert Bass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P8gpb1.0.Z73.tsRDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was appalled by word of Marinov's suicide. For a professed Christian (about which he and I had corresponded) this is like saying, "OK, Lucifer, you win! I give up!" Marinov, in my opinion, was a real genius in the sense that he very well understood all of the classical theoretical physics in great detail (sufficient detail to argue that historically some wrong turnings had been taken, and that Maxwell's Equations as we normally see them can be readily disproved by a _large_ number of table-top Faraday/Ampere type of experiments) and yet was an exceedingly good experimentalist who invented and had built and tested a large number of _VERY_ complicated electromechanical & hydro-electromagnetic devices & systems. A native of Bulgaria (and former Assistant Prof. of Physics from 1960 to 1974 at Sofia University), on certain occasions in 1966-67, 1974, and 1977 he was forcibly confined to mental hospitals and given psychiatric "treatment" because of political dissent. In 1977 he got a passport and in 1978 lived in Washington, D.C.; later he lived in Italy and Austria. He was fluent in both English and German. He was involved publicly with many quarrels with the Editor of _Nature_ who refused to print either his papers or his Letters to the Editor. He retaliated by somehow securing the funds to place full-page ads in Nature expressing his frustration with the dogmatic attitude of the Establishment. He claimed to have seen in operation and learned the secret of the so-called "Swiss ML converter" or TESTATIKA electrical generator [which gets free energy from nowhere], which was discovered by Paul Baumann ("by inspiration rather than human effort"), who is the head of the 500-member Christian religious commune METHERNITHA in Switzerland, which says they generate most of the electricity for hundreds of people via such "perpetuum mobile" generators, which they are unwilling to share with this fallen world. He was supposedly the only member who did not live in the commune. He tried many times, but failed, to persuade them to share their allegedly great discovery with the remainder of mankind. He wrote a book "Divine Electromagnetism" [available from East West Affiliates in Austria at Morellenfeldgasse 16, 8010 Graz, phone (0316) 37 70 93, for $70 + S&H] giving his take on the flaws in classical EM as now taught and how allegedly "high-school level experiments" can flatly disprove some parts of it in favor of other versions buried in now- forgotten old literature before the present version was settled on and now handed down by the Establishment dogmatically. He earned his living by being a groom for horses but he was a prolific writer & inventor in German and had a large following who subscribed to his journal _Deutsche Physik_. His targets were schoolchildren not yet brainwashed by the Establishment into accepting false but dogmatically-taught ideas. He was dead-certain that he had disproved all kinds of dogmatically-taught aspects of conventional electromagnetism, (Lorentz-Ampere Force Law, speed of light, special relativity, ether, Michelson-Morley, etc. -- sadly, my memory is hazy so I may not be recalling his protests correctly). In studying the first edition of his book, I found a mistake in vector calculus and wrote to him, but he sent me the second edition in which another mathematician had already corrected him. He was one year younger than myself (I turn 67 tomorrow) but _seemed_ much younger ("45 or 50") and was an extremely vital and extraordinarily magnetic/charismatic/enthusiastic and attractive person. I met him in Denver more than a year ago and handed him $100 cash which I had owed him for the 2nd Ed'n which he had trusted me to pay but on which I was about a year late [though he readily forgave me]!). I can understand his being "worn out" by the utterly monolithic refusal of the Establishment to listen to his allegations that he had measured ether drift (or whatever) and found in it the rotation of the earth (i.e. some diurnal variation -- or whatever, my recollection is hazy). Perhaps he had measured a diurnal variation in the speed of light; my memory is hazy. The one thing I remember is that the blueprints for his numerous devices all looked very professional & convincing and the photos of his devices looked like they had really been built, yet he had evidently also spent _many thousands_ of hours on extremely complicated mathematical calculations in most of which I could find no mistake. (Few theoreticians are sufficiently versatile to be electro-mechanically creative experimenters!) He published detailed plans for a hydraulic-electro- magnetic perpetuum mobile and showed photos of it in operation, but nobody "important" paid the slightest attention to him. What a tragedy! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 21:06:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA14133; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:56:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:56:26 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:00:54 -0600 To: "vortex" From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Bruce De Palma - Deceased Resent-Message-ID: <"pxdJh2.0.lS3.evRDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Controversial researcher and inventor, Bruce De Palma, died yesterday in a hospital in New Zealand. He had been in a coma for several hours after massive internal bleeding. More details as they come to hand. Duncan M. Roads Editor Nexus Magazine Australia Duncan M. Roads Editor, Nexus Magazine PO Box 30, Maplton Qld 4560 Australia Tel: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381 http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/ "The nature of the universe is such that ends can never justify the means. On the contrary, the means always determine the end." (Aldous Huxley) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 22:30:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA30986; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:23:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:23:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3435C56E.7DF8 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 23:26:22 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, 100433.1541@compuserve.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, storms@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, ceti@onramp.net, rollo@artvark.com, sarfatti well.com, design73@aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, dennis wazoo.com, puthoff@aol.com, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, drom vxcern.cern.ch, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, yekim physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com, perkins3 llnl.gov, "76002@1473"@compuserve.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: For Christopher: five Chubb abstracts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IF9LX2.0.-Z7.yATDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 3, 1997 Dear all, Visiting a local temple today, the library at Los Alamos National Laboratory, I happily found a wonderful gift for Christopher Tinsley, who has plunged willingly into wider actuality-- for the transitions that we call birth and death are necessarily freely chosen on the level of soul, never accidental or imposed. Engrossed as we are with our daily work and play, like passengers shut in within a huge ocean liner, with its many levels, straight corridors, and myriad boxy rooms, suddenly we find his room empty, the open porthole cover perhaps left a little ajar, and through it we may glimpse in a moment of shocked awareness the ocean, vast to an illimitable horizon, deep, dynamic, free, unified, radiant, right here, already, always, that unseen sea which pliably, flexibly, and intimately suppports the entire human world we know...a bright, natural light may spontaneously shine in to illuminate the daily dimness. Since the dawn of cold fusion in 1989, the Chubbs have evolved what must be the correct theory, in the sense that Einstein's special and general relativity both are intrinsicly, fundamentally right. Such theories point to the experiments that inevitably confirm them. Such theories open up vast new horizons. They throw a light that allows indquiry to be focused, and clearcut alternatives to be available. And such are beautiful. The Chubb theory, deuterium ion-band state fusion, is simple, general, inevitable once stated, mysterious, elegant. For years rejected and ignored, not really understood, hard to believe, it has recently been cited by Hedetaka Sada, "Theory of Nuclear Reactions in Solids," in August "Fusion Technology", by Mitchell R. Swartz, "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids," in March "Fusion Technology", by Yoshiaki Arata and Yue-Chang Zhang, "Solid-State Plasma Fusion ('Cold Fusion'}," in "J. High Temperature Society", 1997 special issue, and by James T. Waber and Manueal de Llano, "Cold Fusion as Boson Condensation in a Fermi Sea," in "Transactions of Fusion Technology", Dec., 1994. Their most recent published paper is "Ion Band-State Fusion: Reactions, Power Density, and the Quantum Reality Question," in "Fusion Technology", Dec., 1993. Scott R. Chubb [chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil] and his uncle, Talcott A. Chubb [tchubb aol.com] are at: Oakton International Corporation, 5023 N 38 St., Arlington, VA 22207. These five abstracts are from 1997 and 1996 American Physical Society Bulletin: March 20,1997 14:42 "O"18 2 "Small Crystals Aid Cold Fusion": The 1996 world meeting on cold fusion in Hokkaido, Japan (ICCF6) provided strong evidence that the nuclear product of radiationless cold fusion in a lattice is He-4. Arata and Zhang at Osaka University observed He-4 in thermal desorption studies of deuterided Pd powder that had produced 5 kWh/g excess heat; non-deuterided powder showed no He-4. Gozzi et al. at the University of Rome observed He-4 correlating with excess heat power over a thousand hour time period in the gas flow from an open-cell D2O electrolysis cell, using a bundle of 150 0.25-mm Pd wires as the cathode. Arata and Zhang used a "double structure" cathode consisting of a Pd-metal bottle, evacuated and filled with Pd black (0.4 micron powder). They have recorded excess heat from 6 out of 6 cathodes. We attribute the cold fusion successes to use of small Pd grains. Deuterons coherently occupying ordered regions in a metal matrix are predicted to produce heat a higher power density with decreasing crystal size. 14:30 Session "O"18 "Paired-Particle Coherence in a Lattice": The many-body wave function (r1,...,rn) for non-interacting band state particles in an ordered solid preserve lattice symmetry: | (r1+Rn,r2+Rj....)| + |@(r1,r2...)| for arbitrary lattice vectors Rn and Rj. These states manifestly exhibit a form of coherence with respect to outside perturbations that preserve order. When two, initially non-interacting band state particles are allowed to interact with each other, it is possible for their mutual Coulombic repulsion to be constrained in a manner that also preserves periodic order. Implications associated with the resulting coherence are discussed. Session "O"18 6 "2-Deuteron Wave Function": The 2-particle wave function describing electrostatically interacting deuterons in an external field is a 6 degree-of-freedom function, describable in center-of-mass rcm and separation r12 vector coordinates. Consider the case where the external field is periodic and rcm and r12 can be treated as separable. Then, Y(rcm,r12) = F(rcm)g(r12). The function g(r12) can be called a dimming function since, when r12 approaches 0, |Y(rcm,r12)| approaches a minimum value. g(r12) has a cusp in separation space at r12 = 0. When Y(rcm,r12) has lattice symmetry, |F(rcm+Rn| = |F(rcm)|, where Rn is any lattice vector. The question to be answered is whether lattice symmetry also requires |g(r12+Rm}| = |g(r12)|, where Rm is any lattice vector, i.e., whether g(r12) has a cusp in every unit cell in separation space. It can be shown that if g(r12) has Bloch symmetry for band state deuterons in a metal crystal lattice and if the Coulomb repulsion interaction vanishes outside a screening radius rsc less than half the edge of a unit cell, then the energy-minimizing 2-deuteron wave fulnction provides d-d overlap and there is no Coulomb barrier to fusion. 1996 Session "H"31 61 "Ion Band States, Many-Body Effects, Implications for Cold Fusion (CF)": We have developed a model illustrating how the Coulomb barrier between deuterons can be overcome, based on known properties of hydrogen in metals. The N-body D+ wave function is studied at N = 2. The separation dependency in the 2-D+ wave function has cusps like those in the 2-electron wave function of the helium atom. Unbroken lattice symmetry requires a Bloch function "center-of-mass" wave function with coherently-kinked cusps in each unit cell. When electron screening is present, the energy-minimizing cusp amplitude varies as (Ncell)exp-1, implying CF possibility at large Ncell. Unbroken lattice symmetry in fully-loaded PdD (defined by x-> 1 in PdDx) trigger CF heating, requires CF energy release in each unit cell, and prevents de-excitation by energetic particles or gamma's. Change in the quantum of mass from 2 AMU to 4 AMU redistributes positive charge through occupation of ion band state He-4++, initiating lattice shrinkage with generation of phonons. Ion band state helium with its neutralizing Block electrons is exothermically ejected from the lattice. Session "H"31 120 "Overlap Properties of D+ Ion Band State Matter: Implications for Cold Fusion": Although the "Barrier Penetration" paradigm forbids significant overlap between D+ within Pd or PdD, it explicitly excludes many-body effects resulting from coherence between D+ pairs, solid state effects, and the possibility of discontinuous changes in momentum that are permitted (through wave-function cusps) in bound state systems. By using a alternative framework, involving the occupation of ion band sates, which is consistent with quantum diffusion of H and D in transition metals, and using estimates of screening parameters that apply to fully-loaded PdD, we have performed variational calculations that include the effects of cusps in the separation dependence between two D+ ions but treat their center-of-mass dependence, using ion band state occupation. Our results show that overlap is affected by crystal size; when the number of ulnit cells Ncell < 10exp4, negligible overlap occurs; for Ncell > 10 exp4 increased overlap occurs. Experimental results consistent with a number of the predictions of the underlying theory are presented. [Comments by Murray]: Quantum mechanics applied to solid state crystal lattices leads to strange but powerful and very practical models: famous examples are the band structure model of electron conduction in semiconductors, the Mossbauer effect, superconductivity, and superfluidity. In these models, the system is no longer a collection of discrete, individual particles; it is necessarily and actually a unifid collective entity, a new state with its own natural, intrinsic properties. Thus, in these examples, conduction becomes fenced in and discontinuous (fundamental to transistors and laser diodes), the crystal as a single whole absorbs the momentum of each single gamma emission, electricity flows without resistance forever (just as does the electron cloud in any atom), and helium superfluid can easily penetrate holes that are too tiny to pass helium gas. The Chubbs cite two experiments that demonstate that hydrogen forms a collective state on metal surfaces: Risto Nieminen, "Hydrogen atoms band together," in "Nature", March 26, 1992. Their theory considers a Pd lattice filled one-to-one with D+ ions, with their electrons distributed throughout the lattice. They calculate that if a slight excess of D+ is then added, an added concentration of only 10exp-7 atoms D+ per unit cell in the lattice, the energy balance involved will cause this excess D+ to exist as a collective entity, deuterium ion band state matter, distributed among all the unit cells of the lattice, and able to transform through wave function overlap: (two D+) -> (He-4) + 23.8 Mev heat energy, (both sides of the reaction are bosons), with the He-4 also existing as a collective entity, distributed over the whole lattice, with the energy released evenly among all the unit cells, so that the lattice as a whole heats up, but no concentrations of energy are available to generate gammas or particles. It's the usual quantum mechanical magic, that's all. Some of their predictions: In Pd, the reaction will occur at 1:1 D:Pd ratio. Any loss of periodic order in the lattice from cracking or overloading will impede the reaction. The number Ncell of unit cells in the lattice should be > 10exp8. He-4 production increases with the existing He-4 concentration, leading to positive feedback and runaway energy bursts. He-4 production is predicted to depend directly on electrolytic current, in agreement with one experiment. He-3 production is predicted at lower rates. A small crytal will produce as much energy as a large one, thus showing higher energy density output. He-4 production and heat generation from light water on nickel may actually be from the 1.5 in 10,000 concentration of deuterium. Output will be heat and low-energy He-4 outgas. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 22:32:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA00811; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:24:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 01:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971004012349_-1430265656 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"HRrgP.0.bC.8CTDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 10/4/97 1:22:59 AM, Gene wrote: <> I posted one here at vortex that could I would like to see used. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 04:22:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA10590; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:18:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 04:18:14 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Very Sad News Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:14:54 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971004112126095.AAA120 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"LG8b4.0.Jb2.rNYDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I am not ashamed to say I wept at the news of Chris' death, and weep again in reading the voices of my colleagues of Vortex praising him. I met him twice, once at Gene's forum where he described the Takahashi scooter, and later in Boston where I helped Gene, Jed and Chris with a presentation. He enriched my life in ways I cannot count. His posts were a window to the soul of great and brilliant man, of clear vision and deft wit. I treasured his incisive logic and support in private and public discourse. His flat-out dedication to this field is an example to us all. When he was ill a while back I wrote with concern that he care for himself, that I would miss him. I do. I will. Mike Carrell ---------- > From: Michael Randall > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Very Sad News > Date: Friday, October 03, 1997 11:40 PM > > Sincerest condolences to Chris Tinsley's family and friends. His words of > wisdom will be missed here on earth. He now join's the great ortor's of the > past "Upstairs". > > Till we meet 'there': > > Peace on Earth, > Michael Randall > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 05:39:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id FAA28504; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34362B59.3E2C earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 06:41:13 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Chris Tinsley: IN MEMORIAM] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"mH3Tq1.0.Iz6._WZDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.4]) by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09258 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user06.pahrump.com [205.226.146.106]) by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10967 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:09:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199710040709.AAA10967 pahrump.com> From: "rbrtbass" To: "Rich Murray" Subject: Chris Tinsley: IN MEMORIAM Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:07:19 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Chris Tinsley: IN MEMORIAM Chris Tinsley was as much alive in my heart as anyone with whom I had ever shaken hands in person, although in truth, through what the ancients would have justly termed the 'miracle' of modern electronics, I knew him only via videotapes and many e-Mail correspondences. Of course, having seen him giving a scientific lecture and a technical demonstration of an experiment on videotape I knew what he looked and sounded like, but in his written messages his penetrating wisdom was even more apparent. I honestly believe that his wise advice may have tipped the balance between the CG faction wanting to hold their discoveries proprietary and those agreeing with the advice of Gene Mallove & Jed Rothwell to disclose _everything_ for the benefit of mankind. I am now listening to this uniquely humane spokesman & catalyst for progress as, for the last time, I read what he said to me on June 21: "Jed is of course exactly right. If the CG think that some Big Company will buy their process and build a plant, then they should realize that this just isn't going to happen. The reason is really quite simple, as Jed says; if you don't have a market (people who believe in your product) then you won't get any sales. ... Let me make one small effort to show the alternatives. CG can keep on with their efforts to sell their process to a slippery and disbelieving world with motorized goal posts. They can live on hope, which leaves their bellies empty and the world un-helped. Or they can let us help them, which will bring them solid money and 'make their other processes vastly more credible' when they want to sell those too. ... The choice is pretty stark and simple. It's a choice between a slice of an almost infinite cake, and the entirety of a cake of zero size. ... By the way, Gates doesn't have any patents. A patent is a license for others to steal your ideas, so the best thing is not to worry too much about that side of it all. Just set up your stall and sell into the open market. ... __Chris" In the past few weeks Chris had been in direct contact with the CG regarding a process of theirs which they lacked time to pursue properly, and we regarded him as our point man spearheading the effort in that awesomely-important direction: limitless, free [over-unity], excess energy! My feeling that Chris was indispensable and irreplaceable is so strong that when I first heard of his tragically premature passing, my reaction to the dreadful loss was not the sympathy due his loved ones (to whom I have apologized) but such anger at Fate that I literally cursed our luck & cried: 'the Men in Black' have struck again! After a little more time for composure, my reaction is that of a soldier in war who has lost a close comrade-in-arms who had been a major strength to all. How to carry on in the face of this staggering setback is not now apparent, but that is what our fallen comrade Chris would have wanted us to do. -- Bob Bass rbrtbass pahrump.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 05:52:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA21787; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:44:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 05:44:56 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:44:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710041244.HAA05058 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Aenertia, Aether and Anomalous Aenergy ....] To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"zMoIa3.0.LK5.7fZDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: >Millennium > >all of this is described in some detail in my newly completed paper, >"A New Study in Scarlet" (New Hydrogen Atom) -- if you'd like a copy, >send me a note > > I would like a copy. Thanks, Richard Wall 2690 SR 13 Switzerland, FL 32259 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 06:23:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA24797; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:19:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:19:04 -0700 Message-ID: <343652F8.70AD mediacity.com> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 06:30:16 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A New Study in Scarlet References: <199710041244.HAA05058 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TV1ij.0.N36.69aDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard, It's in the mail. Thanks for your interest. Look forward to any comments, criticisms, missed references, etc. MT From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 07:57:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA03034; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:52:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 07:52:33 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971004105156_642671602 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"u0Srs3.0.Fl.lWbDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Chris Tinsley's untimely death will make it harder for everyone to follow developments in CF. He was one of the few good reporters in the field. The Three Musketeers of CF (Mallove, Rothwell and Tinsley) have lost an experienced, knowledgeable, and intrepid comrade-in-arms. Tinsley was a realistic experimenter as well as a good reporter. He knew that overunity devices didn't work, but that one could still learn something about the subtleties of physics by studying them. He also knew that CF was in a different league, and that a real energy-producing phenomenon had been discovered. I always read and learned from Chris Tinsley's posts on SPF and Vortex-L as well as his articles in *Cold Fusion* and *Infinite Energy.* I'll miss his contributions to the debate surrounding CF, and so will many other people. It's a shame that he didn't live to see the first sustained public demonstrations of a CF device, i.e, demonstrations that would convince the media and the scientific community that there was a real energy-producing phenomenon worth covering and investigating. 1997 has already seen major progress toward that goal, and I think that he was looking forward to still more important developments in 1998. I never had the privilege of meeting Chris, but I second John Steck and others on this forum in extending long-distance condolences to Chris Tinsley's family, friends, and colleagues. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 09:39:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA18911; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:36:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:41:05 -0600 To: "vortex" From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Additional Information from Dr. Bruce DePalma Resent-Message-ID: <"xSxL_2.0.Id4.J2dDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following are general emails which I received from the DePalma Institute: Evan Soule' _______________________________ Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "DePalma Institute" To: "DePalma Fans" Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:17:19 +1200 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: The Home of Primordial Energy -- (NEW and IMPROVED) Reply-to: "DePalma Institute" Priority: normal Dear Friends, Thank you for your continued interest in the Intelligent Field of Energy which supports our very existence. Recently there have been some major changes to the Home of Primordial Energy, resulting in temporary malfunctions at the site. You may be assured these are now repaired. When you have an opportunity, please visit the site and let us know what you think of it. Also, we ask you make a point of forwarding this message to one contact/associate/family-member or friend who has not been introduced to the idea of Energy from Space. http://www.depalma.org.nz/ (When writing us, please mention which of our two sites you visit most often, and whether you were able to access everything without difficulty.) We are happy to discuss the relationship between technology - ecology - society, as well as the absolute necessity of a new energy source. Natural Philosophy is not a licence to practice the black art of 'Theoretical Physics'. It is an attempt to express clearly our perceptions arising from the *experience* of natural phenomena. With the technological innovations now developing from a new synthesis of ideas concerning Nature, we shall be more 'in tune' with the profound sublimity of the implicitly unified whole. May the wind be at your back. Peace. DEPALMA INSTITUTE ___________________________ N.B. We are currently featured at: http://www.stpt.com/personal/personalNEW.html Please take a split-second to click the "VOTE" button (beside our entry) as we shall be exploring every possibility in cybernetic dissemination of these Millennial thoughts. ___________________________ Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "DePalma Institute" To: "DePalma Fans" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:49:39 +1200 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Radio Appearance Reply-to: "DePalma Institute" Priority: normal Bruce DePalma can be heard live via the Internet, or Nationwide in the US on Jeff Rense's "SIGHTINGS on the RADIO" today (Thursaday 28 August) between 6pm and 9pm PST. REAL AUDIO LINK: http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/sightings.ram NET SHOW LINK: http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/end144.asx Please see Jeff's site at: http://www.sightings.com/ This show will be stored in Jeff's archives in a day or two. It will be found at: REAL AUDIO http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/archive.stm NET SHOW http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/archive_ns.stm Regards, DePalma Institute From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 09:44:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA18942; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:36:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:36:37 -0700 X-Sender: josephnewman mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:41:02 -0600 To: "vortex" From: josephnewman earthlink.net (Evan Soule) Subject: Words from Dr. Bruce DePalma.... Resent-Message-ID: <"1wbZ61.0.rd4.K2dDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear List members, The following was the last direct email communication I had with Dr. DePalma which I thought I would share with you. I am deeply sorry to hear of his passing and I extend my most sincere condolences to his family members and friends. Evan Soule' Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "DePalma Institute" To: "Evan Soule" Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:00:21 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Energy Priority: normal Dear Mr Soule': Thank you for your interest in my work. I seem to recall we had spoken in the past when I was in America. There are two aspects to the treatment of inventors. 1) Inventors who come up with inventions are highly protective of their work, being that they have spent substantial time and money achieving their goal. They know the mendacious amorality of the world of money and business. In order to succeed in this world takes a combination of luck, skill, finance, and a good idea. Only some succeed. 2) Energy, applied through science, motivates the civilized world. It is more basic than money, which is only a paper promise. The inventor is the wild card in the world of finance. A new source of energy could bring down the empire. Yes, I along with Joe Newman and Robert Adams truly know the magnitude of the beast. I make all my ideas public as I see myself more as a basic physical scientist and teacher than an inventor. My solution was to leave the United States to find a place where I was not altogether encouraged but not discouraged. I am much happier here in New Zealand. Thank you for the Email of the two faxes you received. I am not surprised to see the big boys are at work. The handwriting is on the wall. I had read some of Ehrenhaft's work in the past. It shows we don't know all there is to know about light, magnetism and electricity. My theory is that there is no theory. All we know is what we know from experience. My advice to Joe is to go where he might be appreciated. Where he is going and where America is heading are two separate directions. If you need anything from me don't hesitate to ask. Best wishes, Bruce DePalma N.B. God is in charge of this world. The truth is only for those who's ears hear the truth and who's eyes see the truth. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 10:09:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA23768; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:04:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:04:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:04:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199710041704.KAA08745 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Aenertia, Aether and Anomalous Aenergy ....] Resent-Message-ID: <"J0z5o1.0.9p5.ISdDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Millenium wrote; >Re: "The aether-words are cute, but there has been as little >evidence (to me, and if you have it my email address is below) >for aether as there is for ZPE (excepting the miniscule zero >point energy of materials at zero degrees K which is real)." > >The aether is just another word for light or the electromagnetic >continuum. This is of course, a common opinion among physicists and heretics alike. But I assure you that it is in error, and that if one knows how and what to look for, the evidence abounds. The problem with the notion of aether, is that from its inception scientists have considered aether to be a whispy substance needed to carry light from here to there. But only a few, such as Thomson and Bjerknes, took the notions further and applied it to fields using models of pulsations of spheres in the aether. de Broglie and Bohm considered pilot waves, but avoided the aether issue, and again their assumption was that these waves were as well, whispy and without measurable energy. All they did was to tell the particle, seat of energy, where to go. Even they, however, failed to apply the notion of aether in a new manner. Only a few heritics have considered that aether could be intense, substantive, and the stuff out of which what we call particles is made. Of those few, I am way out on a lonely road. However, when you say there is no evidence for the existence of aether, you are ignorant of the tremendous jets that form in new born stars, of the tremendous jets emitted by active galactic nuclei, of the heating of the solar corona and the emission of global coronal mass ejections. You are un aware of the distributions of stars in globular clusters and elliptical galaxies, of the quantization that apparently leads to BH's being proportional in mass to their host galaxies. All of these things are evidence of the existence of aether. Of all of the observational evidence, two that stand out are that when a star first ignites, aether comes pouring out of the paths of least resistance, the axis'. And a large amount of cold hydrogen is blown away by the flow of the stuff of spacetime itself, aether. As the star ages, it comes to a rolling boil via a process known as the "Flare Star" period in a stars existence. The other set of images is that of Centaurus A, a huge elliptical in the southern sky. You can see the radio jets, and the stars that were blown away from the BH that breached confinement. Those stars extend up along the axis of rotation to about 3 times the diameter of the host galaxy. Now you think about that fact, how is it that you could randomly fling objects and focus them up and out of the galaxy along the axial line? This simply is not expected or possible using GR. If a star, statistically speaking, is to be thrown out of a galaxy due to a gain in angular momentum, then the direction ought to be approximately random. But if there is an excess, then it should be out of the plane of the galaxy since that is where the excess angular momentum lies, not along the axis of rotation. And yet, we find a large number of stars along the axis of rotation. You don't understand how to work with aether from the standpoint of particles being resonances, and aether being conserved in all interactions. This requires working with an acoustic structure of standing waves AS SPACETIME . So aether and spacetime are two distinct concepts, one is the fluid, and one is a structure of acoustic energy, and particles are a different form of structure of acoustic energy, namely a standing wave. All stars are emitting aether, all BH's have aether flowing into them, all exothermic reactions are aether emissive, all endothermic reactions are aether absorptive. Aether is there, the evidence is right in front of our noses, all we need do is to learn what aether is and how it works, and then the observations will be obvious. (So too will certain of the CF reaction processes, because we will learn that the strong force is not an attractive one, but rather the interaction of wave energy converging into and confining, the nucleons. Confinement, if interupted, will be breached, whereas an attraction force is inherently stable. There is little difference in the mathematics that describes the interactions, but a huge difference in how the interactions will play out when a turbulent bunch of spacetime wave energy passes by.) Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 14:40:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA28725; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 14:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:37:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710042137.QAA20001 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mill's contradiction? Resent-Message-ID: <"LCSqS.0.i07.RShDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, On BlacklightPower's web page in the Technology section they have what appears to be a contradiction going. I noticed this and sent Dr. Mills a query about it on 28SEP97 as follows: >Dr. Mills, > >I am an experimentalist working with Dr. Hal Puthoff. I am, of course, interested in your work. In reading the material on yr web site, I came up with a question: > >In Part 1 of the Detail on Technology you say that the n = 1/integer states of hydrogen are non-radiative and transition between, say, the n=1 and n=1/2 states requires a resonant collision to remove the transition energy. > >Later in the Extreme UV Proposal you propose an experiment to observe the UV radiation from these transitions. > >Am I misreading something here? So far no response from Mills. Does anybody on Vortex know anything about this situation? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 16:40:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA31072; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:35:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 16:35:16 -0700 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:34:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Very Sad News In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971002205134.008fd158 freeway.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yR6o-3.0.Ob7.pAjDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was very sad to hear of Chris Tinsley's sudden departure from this life. I thoroughly enjoyed his postings here which were full of wit, humour, intelligence and honesty. I learnt much from Chris through this forum, not least of which was to look closely at the many assumptions underpinning Science and my own set of beliefs. I wish that I had had the opportunity to meet him in person. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 20:02:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA32032; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:52:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:52:38 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:46:50 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971005025549340.AAA177 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"x1FCs3.0.Iq7.r3mDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott said: ---------- > >In Part 1 of the Detail on Technology you say that the n = 1/integer states > of hydrogen are non-radiative and transition between, say, the n=1 and n=1/2 > states requires a resonant collision to remove the transition energy. > > > >Later in the Extreme UV Proposal you propose an experiment to observe the > UV radiation from these transitions. > > > >Am I misreading something here? I had a discussion with John Farrell along these lines, as I was also puzzled about where the EUV radiation would come from in the vapor phase cell if the hydrinos are non-radiative. I'm not sure I could convey a definitive answer -- I'm not sure Mills has one -- but the sense I have is that energy is transferred from the hydrogen atom to the potassium catalysts, which in turn radiate it to relax to the initial conditions so they can react again as good catalysts should. The newly-formed hydrino does not radiate but can participate in further catalytic reactions. One could speculate that a hydrino in catalyzing a new hydrogen atom would absorb the energy necessary to restore it to its original state. This obviously can lead to clouds of speculation. I think it better to wait a while until the EUV experiments are run and data analyzed. The EUV spectrophotometer was received only a few weeks ago. More and better data will help discover what Nature is really telling us. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 21:29:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA13853; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:25:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 21:25:18 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: rdeuble belen.k12.nm.us Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:19:04 -0600 Subject: Supercritical Water-Brick O-U Heat Pipe? Message-ID: <19971004.221919.3182.2.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6-7,10-11,14-20,23-25 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"GQvdv.0.NO3.jQnDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, Common Brick (2 1/4" x 3 3/4" x 8") with a void volume running 17% to 25% will fit in a 4" schedule 80 pipe (3.826" inches I.D., 0.337 wall) if the corners are ground back about 3/8". The higher strength *Seamless* steel or stainless steel pipe of this size (4") should withstand the 800 deg F temperature and approximately 3500 psig supercritical water pressure. A ready source of Potassium Carbonate is soaking the wood ashes from a stove, fireplace, or campfire, in water for a few hours and pouring off and straining through a cloth. DISCLAIMER: Fill the pipe with bricks and the water-alkali solution, seal and heat AT YOUR OWN PERIL! Over a campfire,Dan Q.? :-) As a footnote, the alkali feldspars and Zeolite-Molecular Sieve minerals (Potassium-Sodium Aluminosilicates) are always found near Volcanos and/or Geothermal Hotsprings. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 22:50:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA02968; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710050547.WAA16686 schilling.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq blue.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Supercritical Water-Brick O-U Heat Pipe? Resent-Message-ID: <"u7vL63.0.Hk.adoDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >DISCLAIMER: Fill the pipe with bricks and the water-alkali >solution, seal and heat AT YOUR OWN PERIL! > >Over a campfire,Dan Q.? :-) Frederick, if we leave one end open, I believe you have invented brick mortar! This has the makings of a strong theoretical foundation... hey, point that thing the *other* way. (I hope nobody gets grout-chy about these posts ;-) Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 23:15:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA25309; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:10:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:10:20 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:10:12 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: test msg, ignore Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yn_02.0.NB6.BzoDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: test From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 23:31:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA05951; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:27:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lepton number not conserved??? In-Reply-To: <2F748C6E42 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zVHiu.0.tS1.eDpDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Jay Olson wrote: > Gnorts vorts! > > Since a neutrino has some small mass, it cannot travel faster > than light. However, the spin of a neutrino is opposite it's > direction of travel, and an antineutrino's spin is in the direction > of travel. But since I can get into a spaceship and outrun a > neutrino, from my perspective his direction of motion has reversed, > but his spin has not. Thus a neutrino can be turned into an > antineutrino based on a simple Lorentz transformation. This would > seem to violate conservation of lepton number, since a neutrino has > a lepton number of 1 and an antineutrino has a lepton number of -1. > Anybody have any way of looking at this so that lepton number is > conserved or the paradox is resolved somehow? This is an entirely correct analysis of the consequence of neutrinos having mass. Lepton number cannot be conserved if neutrinos are allowed to have mass. There are many other consequences of this hypothesis that are far easier to test than trying to outrun them in a spaceship. The most accessable to experiment is the idea of "neutrino oscillations". In this scenario one flavour of neutrinos can spontaneously transform into another. This is one means by which the "Solar Neutrino problem" is solved. The neutrinos from the sun are produced as electron-type neutrinos but are transformed to muon type on the way to Earth. Here the experiments used so far to measure them are not sensitive to muon-type neutrinos. I myself am heaviliy involved in a neutrino oscillation search here at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland. To find out more about this fascinating subject with literally Cosmic consequences checkout the "Neutrino Oscillation Industry Hompage" http://www.hep.anl.gov/NDK/Hypertext/nuindustry.html Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 00:27:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA10123; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT) From: atech ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971005032803.0080ec30 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 03:28:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bruce De Palma - Deceased Resent-Message-ID: <"hIpNj3.0.5U2.03qDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm sorry to hear that Dr. Depalma has passed on. I guess everyone is still in a state of shock over Chris Tinsley's passing. Please send the Depalma family my condolences. I feel that the pioneers of this new field of physics should all be honored for the hardships they face trying to do some good for humanity. Regards; Dennis C. Lee At 11:00 PM 10/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >Controversial researcher and inventor, Bruce De Palma, died yesterday in >a hospital in New Zealand. He had been in a coma for several hours after >massive internal bleeding. > >More details as they come to hand. > >Duncan M. Roads >Editor >Nexus Magazine >Australia > >Duncan M. Roads >Editor, Nexus Magazine >PO Box 30, Maplton Qld 4560 Australia >Tel: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381 >http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/ > >"The nature of the universe is such that ends can never justify the means. >On the contrary, the means always determine the end." >(Aldous Huxley) > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 01:10:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA05143; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:04:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:04:33 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 00:07:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Very Sad News Resent-Message-ID: <"FSn7q3.0.FG1.GeqDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Deepest condolances to the family and friends of Chris Tinsley for their great loss. Though I never met Chris in person, I feel a deep personal loss, and the loss of a potentially great good for humanity. I will miss his humor and modest good nature, his deep insight, his extensive knowlege of history combined with extraordinary open mindedness, and his kindly Socratic method. Chris possessed the special kind of deep intellectual honesty and personal integrity necessary to work successfully in such a difficult and shunned field of study as free energy. He taught me much about electromagnetism and motivated me to experiment. St. Vincent DeSola Pool said: "The learning of difficult subject material only occurs when an important reference person demands the effort." Chris was such an important reference person to me. Most of all I miss the chance to say good bye Chris, and thanks for so much so well done. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 01:58:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id BAA17641; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BCD174.FB520800 ppp48.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'Vortex Contributions'" Subject: Re: Very Sad News Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 09:55:59 +0100 Encoding: 19 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"r5Z6V2.0.ZJ4.LOrDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I too have only just downloaded my mail and got the sad news a little late. I give my condolences to his family and to Soo. If I can help with anything practical then please contact me (I am only in Doncaster) I will be happy do what I can. Chris and I met on a couple of occasions when trying to get the Yusmar to work but spoke many times more on the phone and I guess like most of us, I wish I could have known him for much longer. I enjoyed his posts and general approach to the subjects we discussed, he seemed to epitomise some of the better characteristics of what it means to be a true English gentleman. I shall look forward to renewing our acquaintance in the resurrection. Sadly, Mike Butcher From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 02:29:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA14067; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:25:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:25:44 -0700 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ten steps forward, fifty back Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Mwx0i2.0.eR3.NqrDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh rats. Um. Has anyone been keeping personal copies of the huge vortex-L archive files? Only the last couple of months are a problem. I've been working on a feature offered by the unix here: hypermail archives on www. I just got the automatic updating to work, and the archives are going to be accessable on the web. The current month is up, see http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird2/hyp/index.html Big but. But while creating the archive and deleting it and trying again over and over while debugging, I finally did a rm *.* WHILE I WAS IN THE WRONG &%! # DIRECTORY. I erased all vortex-L archives (and lots of other stuff in the /weird directory.) Of course on unix there is no undelete. There are backup tapes on this ISP, but the local sysop has been having hardware troubles, and only has backups of this particular partition since 7/8/97. So, most files can be restored, but the last three months are gone. The current month is fortunately unaffected (go and see on www!) But had just created the zip file for september, so that one exists nowhere. Might anyone by chance still have vortex707.zip and vortex708.zip? And even "current month?" (which would have september messages) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 03:54:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id DAA23704; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 03:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:51:21 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: Rich Murray Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: 99.8% Reduction of Th in LENT-1 Kit by 3rd Party] In-Reply-To: <34341F63.42F7 earthlink.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jHR281.0.Io5.85tDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The observation that the walls of the chamber were initially radioactive is intriguing. However, it could be Radon. That would explain the decrease over time as the Radon escaped into the atmosphere. High resolution gamma ray spectroscopy should be able to identify the radio-nuclei present. It would easily distinguish Radon from other species. Since the investigator has a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics, I would hope this was done. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 05:12:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA26534; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:07:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:07:34 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:54:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Lepton number not conserved??? Message-ID: <19971005.060212.3182.6.fsparber juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-58,60-73 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"Vg6pI1.0.WU6.5CuDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 08:27:14 +0200 (MET DST) Martin Sevior writes: > > >On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Jay Olson wrote: > >> Gnorts vorts! >> >> Since a neutrino has some small mass, it cannot travel faster >> than light. However, the spin of a neutrino is opposite it's >> direction of travel, and an antineutrino's spin is in the direction >> of travel. But since I can get into a spaceship and outrun a >> neutrino, from my perspective his direction of motion has reversed, >> but his spin has not. Thus a neutrino can be turned into an >> antineutrino based on a simple Lorentz transformation. This would >> seem to violate conservation of lepton number, since a neutrino has >> a lepton number of 1 and an antineutrino has a lepton number of -1. > >> Anybody have any way of looking at this so that lepton number is >> conserved or the paradox is resolved somehow? > > >This is an entirely correct analysis of the consequence of neutrinos >having >mass. Lepton number cannot be conserved if neutrinos are allowed to >have mass. >There are many other consequences of this hypothesis that are far >easier to >test than trying to outrun them in a spaceship. The most accessable to >experiment is the idea of "neutrino oscillations". In this scenario >one flavour >of neutrinos can spontaneously transform into another. This is one >means by >which the "Solar Neutrino problem" is solved. The neutrinos from the >sun are >produced as electron-type neutrinos but are transformed to muon type >on the way >to Earth. Here the experiments used so far to measure them are not >sensitive to >muon-type neutrinos. > >I myself am heaviliy involved in a neutrino oscillation search here at >CERN in >Geneva, Switzerland. To find out more about this fascinating subject >with >literally Cosmic consequences checkout the "Neutrino Oscillation >Industry >Hompage" > >http://www.hep.anl.gov/NDK/Hypertext/nuindustry.html > >Cheers > >Martin Sevior > > Okay, Martin. If you allow that the neutrino is a bound pair of particles with mass (albeit small) with one of them having a "moment of inertia" of 1/2 MR^2 and the other with "moment of inertia" MR^2, then the net spin is 1/2 and the net charge is zero. :-) If they go through exchange of this Moment of Inertia they will change "Flavours", will they not? Then the only difference between a neutrino and a "Light Lepton" pair created from a photon of an ev or so is that in one case they are bound and in the other they are unbound, in which case they can unite with a proton and an electron and create a Hydrino and an Electrino respectively. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 05:15:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA26523; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:07:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:07:32 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:01:30 -0600 Subject: Re: Supercritical Water-Brick O-U Heat Pipe? Message-ID: <19971005.060212.3182.7.fsparber juno.com> References: <199710050547.WAA16686 schilling.ucdavis.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-26 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"wQkcf3.0.DU6.3CuDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Dan Quickert writes: >>DISCLAIMER: Fill the pipe with bricks and the water-alkali >>solution, seal and heat AT YOUR OWN PERIL! >> >>Over a campfire,Dan Q.? :-) > >Frederick, if we leave one end open, I believe you have invented brick >mortar! Spoken like a true Mason, Dan. :-) >This has the makings of a strong theoretical foundation... hey, point >that >thing the *other* way. > >(I hope nobody gets grout-chy about these posts ;-) Ouch and arrgggh. Keep that up and you will end up with "cement shoes". :-) Regards, Frederick > >Dan > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 05:28:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA27840; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:23:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:23:49 -0700 Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:23:08 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lepton number not conserved??? In-Reply-To: <19971005.060212.3182.6.fsparber juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yR5NL2.0.wo6.KRuDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > Okay, Martin. If you allow that the neutrino is a bound > pair of particles with mass (albeit small) with one of > them having a "moment of inertia" of 1/2 MR^2 and the other with "moment > of inertia" MR^2, then the net spin > is 1/2 and the net charge is zero. :-) > > If they go through exchange of this Moment of Inertia they > will change "Flavours", will they not? > > Then the only difference between a neutrino and a > "Light Lepton" pair created from a photon of an ev or so > is that in one case they are bound and in the other they > are unbound, in which case they can unite with a proton > and an electron and create a Hydrino and an Electrino > respectively. > Fred, I gather that your light electrons are electromagetically bound. If that is the case a neutrino that is really a bound l+l- pair would have a very large magnetic moment, comparable to a neutral Hydrogen atom. The measured neutrino magnetic moment is many order of magnitude smaller to the best of our measurements. Other problems arise from extensive very high energy neutrino scattering data that show neutrinos have no substructure on a scale of at least 10**-17 m. An electromagnetically bound l+l- pair would have a size comparable to a H atom. About 10**-10 m MUCH larger! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 05:53:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA29810; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:48:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 05:48:56 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: gsparb juno.com Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:42:26 -0600 Subject: Re: Lepton number not conserved??? Message-ID: <19971005.064306.3182.11.fsparber juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-30,32-48,50-59 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"DqrVE1.0.iH7.souDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:23:08 +0200 (MET DST) Martin Sevior writes: > > >On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > >> Okay, Martin. If you allow that the neutrino is a bound >> pair of particles with mass (albeit small) with one of >> them having a "moment of inertia" of 1/2 MR^2 and the other with >"moment >> of inertia" MR^2, then the net spin >> is 1/2 and the net charge is zero. :-) >> >> If they go through exchange of this Moment of Inertia they >> will change "Flavours", will they not? >> >> Then the only difference between a neutrino and a >> "Light Lepton" pair created from a photon of an ev or so >> is that in one case they are bound and in the other they >> are unbound, in which case they can unite with a proton >> and an electron and create a Hydrino and an Electrino >> respectively. >> > >Fred, I gather that your light electrons are electromagetically bound. >If that >is the case a neutrino that is really a bound l+l- pair would have a >very large >magnetic moment, comparable to a neutral Hydrogen atom. I think not, Martin. The net "nuclear" magnetic moment of a bound pair would not be measureable if the energies are the same? The measured >neutrino >magnetic moment is many order of magnitude smaller to the best of our >measurements. Exactly. > >Other problems arise from extensive very high energy neutrino >scattering data >that show neutrinos have no substructure on a scale of at least >10**-17 m. An >electromagnetically bound l+l- pair would have a size comparable to a >H atom. >About 10**-10 m MUCH larger! No. The "radius" kq^2/W where W is the rest energy would put the size of a neutrino of 0.5 ev "at rest" at about 2.9E-9 meters! A big fellow. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Martin Sevior > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 06:45:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA02802; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:41:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:41:23 -0700 Message-ID: <34378BF2.4B57 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 07:45:38 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: A LENT Kit to transmute Cu &/or Ti?] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"7QS9v2.0.ch.1avDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from scotland.it.earthlink.net (scotland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.26]) by slovakia.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23604 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.4]) by scotland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01206 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user08.pahrump.com [205.226.146.108]) by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13090; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:04:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199710041904.MAA13090 pahrump.com> From: "Robert Bass" To: "Eric Wyse" , "Ronald Brodzinski" , "Norman Olson" , "John S. Vetrano" , "Fred Jaeger" , "Jan Kucherov" <76002.1473 compuserve.com>, "Paul Evans" , "John Bockris" , "Wayne Green" , "Hal Fox" , "Jed Rothwell" <72240.1256 compuserve.com>, "Eugene F. Mallove" <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, "Mitchell Swartz" , "George Miley" , "Yeong Kim" , "Edmund Storms" , "Gary Doolen" , "Ronald McFee" , "Peter D. Barnes" , "Don A. Baker" , "Richard C. Slansky" , "Raymond J. Juzaitis" , "Siegfried Hecker" , "Leaf Turner" , "Thomas N. Claytor" , "Joe Maguire" , "Bennett Miller" , "Martha Krebs" , "Flavio Fontana" , "Stan Gleeson" , "Robert D. Eagleton" Cc: "Vince Cockeram" , "Harry H. Conover" , "David Taylor" , "Vyacheslav Panov" , "Gary Vesperman" , "Donald Carlson" , "Toby Grotz" , "Ross Tessien" , "Mark D. Hugo" , "Joe Champion" , "Scott Chubb" , "Nicholas Palmer" <70374.3025 compuserve.com>, "Gordon Brightsen" , "Bill Ward" , "Charles McNeill" , "Douglas Morrison" , "David A. Scott" , "Ed Wall" , "Grant Hudlow" , "Gary Steckly" , "Horace Heffner" , "Joseph N. Ignat" , "James Bowery" , "James A. Carr" , "James Powell" , "C. D. Johnson" , "Kerry S. Lane" , "Kirk Shanahan" , "Larry Vardiman" , "Tom Van Flandern" , "Mike McKubre" , "Martin Kendig" , "Dave Nagel" , "James T. Lo" , "Peter Glueck" , "Paul Koloc" , "Mike Windell" , "Robert Huggins" , "Rich Murray" , "Robin van Spaandonk" , "Susan Blackburn" , "Talbott Chubb" , "Gus P. Andrews" , "Charles G. Beaudette" , "Robert M. Wood" , "Steve Okerlund" , "Tim Mitchell" , "John Strumila" , "Mike Carrell" , "Frederick J. Sparber" , "Michael J. Schaffer" , "Steven E. Jones" , "Harold Aspden" , "Sandra Ball" , "Robert W. Bass" Subject: A LENT Kit to transmute Cu &/or Ti? Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:01:14 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Horace, You are right, of course; however, I would be cautious about putting any kind of such Kit in the hands of anyone but "experts" for Product Liability reasons. The cell develops 4 (or 40?) atmospheres pressure inside. If it blew up there would be Zirconium schrapnel killing the students. In my opinion the LENT-1^[tm] Kit should be tested only by remote control and shielded from line of vision observation by sandbags, at least. This is NOT a toy! The silicone O-rings are supposed to yield if pressure becomes too great (and the steel end-plates are clamped onto the Zirconium cylinder's ends by steel bolts), but I remember the Challenger disaster (in which school-teacher/amateur-astronaut Christa Macauliff & others died as a result of failure of O-rings). I would be happier if there were an Underwriters Lab certified Safety Valve besides the O-rings (but this would just increase the cost). Bob > From: Horace Heffner > To: Robert Bass Subject: Re: LIBEL! 3rd Party 99.8% Transmutes ONE GRAM of Th! > Date: Saturday, October 04, 1997 6:05 AM > > [snip] > > Stan Gleeson says that only if the exact protocol (for 30 > >minutes) published in "Infinite Energy" is followed, does Ti and Cu > >always appear. If run longer, apparently the Th goes to light > >elements. Apparently this CG-supplied LENT-1 Kit was run > >for "hours." > [snip] > > Sincerely, > > Bob Bass > [snip] > > This is wonderful news! The implication of the above is that it should be > possible to build a LENT kit for use in typical college, high scholl, or > even amateur home labs. This can be achieved by not using Th at all but by > starting with the Ti and/or Cu intermediate products of the LENT-1, and > running the device for long periods. Appropriate safety shielding and > other safety devices would be required, so cost might go up. Also, maybe > chemical tests for CU and and at least one product should be included in > such a kit. However, eliminating the need for radioactive material in the > kit goes a long way toward increasing widespread accessability to proof of > the basic science. > > The control run would not include the initial Cu or Ti. If a LENT byproduct > element does not appear in the control run, but does in the live run, proof > of LENT is achieved. The main problem might be in being able to run the > cell long enough to transform sufficient material to make simple chemical > tests reliable and sufficient. There is also the problem of digesting the > cell, which might be eased by designing a smaller cell, and possibly > changing cell geometry, etc. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 08:02:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA10977; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:57:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 07:57:44 -0700 Message-ID: <3437BA50.3293 mediacity.com> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 08:03:28 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.co Subject: more sad tidings, confirmed. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MbLpn.0.Rh2.dhwDq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Friends, This is to confirm the news of the death of free-energy pioneer Bruce Eldridge DePalma. His final resting place is the soil of West Auckland, New Zealand. I received a confirming telephone call from the DePalma Institute late Friday night (California time). It will probably be a few days before a statement can be released to the Web. Don't know any of the details, but would hazard to guess cancer, ulcers, or some related condition. Bruce strongly empathized with my reactivity to the conformist consumer world and to the resulting "ulcerated mess" seemingly "nurtured within" myself, as he said. He understood my situation of adversity and my goals of harmony, and thus concured with New Zealand and the DePalma Institute as the solution. I haven't had a chance to speak to Chris Tinsley's early death. Would like to respond to his post of January 22, 1997 on the subject of 'push' forces and the aether. I never got to meet or exchange correspondence with Chris. Furthering and extending his quest is all I can offer to do. As he said, "This post is pure prattle, and I apologise in advance for it. I'm just trying to get some kind of a handle on this 'new physics'. And I want very much to avoid the clever stuff, just to look at the basics." "We know that two ships parked close together in choppy seas will be pushed together by the fact that longer waves are excluded from the space between them, and the idea seems to be that this kind of action explains all the forces?" My question to the discussion groups is -- this certainly explains the (electromagnetogravitic wave) Casimir phenomenum, but why do planets NOT fall into stars? Stars NOT fall into galactic cores? Clearly the stellar and galactic-scale standing aether (plasma-group) waves have equal repulsive components. And do not equal numbers of examples exist of expanding galactic systems, as opposed to contracting? Is not the micro-scale aether just like the cosmic-scale aether, in that sense? Does not repulsion exist as often, and in balance with attraction? Compression as rarifaction? Unraveling and decay as often as superposition, beading, and soliton creation? That I believe is the nature of the ubiquitous EMG aenertial vortex wave of experience. Of action. Of spin and propagation flux density. Aether waves are repulsive from the outside, attractive on the inside? Repulsive from the outside slope so-to-speak, attractive to the inside slope? Goodbye Chris. Goodbye Bruce. We will do all we can to clear up our minds, and strengthen our bodies. Whether we are in time to give this planet a chance, I largely doubt, Millennium From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 09:59:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA22172; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 09:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 09:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 09:51:46 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199710051651.JAA16033 moon.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: ten steps forward, fifty back Resent-Message-ID: <"Wy0oU.0.LQ5.aMyDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Yo Bill, I've been subscribed to Vortex and FreeNRG since day one, and have kept copies of everything except the crossposts. Since there have been so many of those, I (arbitrarily) decided which archive the crosspost should have been posted to, and then I deleted the other one. That shouldn't be much of a problem to most people. I am a bit behind in my work right now (so what's new), but I could zip them up and have them to you in a few days. As for delivery, will Eskimo North allow multiple megabite e-mails? Or will I have to put them on floppies, and have them slipped under your door by a brown shoed square in the middle of the night? -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 11:11:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA27706; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:05:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lepton number not conserved??? In-Reply-To: <19971005.064306.3182.11.fsparber juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Jl-j11.0.om6.OSzDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > > On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:23:08 +0200 (MET DST) Martin Sevior > writes: > > > > > >On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > > > >> Okay, Martin. If you allow that the neutrino is a bound > >> pair of particles with mass (albeit small) with one of > >> them having a "moment of inertia" of 1/2 MR^2 and the other with > >"moment > >> of inertia" MR^2, then the net spin > >> is 1/2 and the net charge is zero. :-) > >> I didn't catch this the first time. Two 1/2 integral spin particles will always combine to give an integral spin particle. It is a fundamental feature of Quantum Mechanics. > > I think not, Martin. The net "nuclear" magnetic moment of a bound pair > would not be measureable if the energies are the same? > Nothing ever cancels exactly. The residual would probably be several orders of magnitude above the upper limit on the neutrino magnetic moment. I don't have the time to verify this with a proper calculation though. > > > >Other problems arise from extensive very high energy neutrino > >scattering data > >that show neutrinos have no substructure on a scale of at least > >10**-17 m. An > >electromagnetically bound l+l- pair would have a size comparable to a > >H atom. > >About 10**-10 m MUCH larger! > > No. The "radius" kq^2/W where W is the rest energy would put the size of > a neutrino of 0.5 ev "at rest" at about > 2.9E-9 meters! A big fellow. :-) > But that is the problem! The "size" of neutrinos have been measured to be 8 orders of magnitude smaller. The binding energy of the l+l- pair would be at most a few ev. Neutrinos of 100's GeV are regularly used to explode nuclei.(we do it every 14 seconds in our experiemnt here at CERN). Your weakly bound l+l- pair could not possibly do that. I'm sorry Fred, l+l- pairs won't work as neutrinos. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 12:07:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id MAA01902; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971005190254.006c6120 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 15:02:54 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: ten steps forward, fifty back Resent-Message-ID: <"Kxwq22.0.bT.iH-Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A William Beaty writes: >I've been working on a feature offered by the unix here: hypermail >archives on www. I just got the automatic updating to work, and the >archives are going to be accessable on the web. The current month is up, >see http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird2/hyp/index.html I just had a look: very, very, nice. It was so nice, with its well-formatted messages and its sorting capability, that I bookmarked the page and may start reading Vortex from your website instead of my Eudora mail-program. But on the other hand, old habits die hard with me, so ... But it is a great addition to your site. Congratulations. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 13:05:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA07658; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3437E699.D47E6C64 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:12:25 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: William Beaty Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ten steps forward, fifty back X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GCnD-1.0.Yt1.18_Dq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > Oh rats. Um. Has anyone been keeping personal copies of the huge > vortex-L archive files? Only the last couple of months are a problem. [snip] Hi Bill, I am keeping all files both as vortex-digest and as vortex-list on my hard disk since may-97. I you need them I could zip them and repost to you progressively. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 20:55:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA09807; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:50:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:50:17 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Chris' passing Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 03:49:43 +0000 Message-ID: <19971006034930.AAC13044 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"l5y_S1.0.4P2.u_5Eq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Having just downloaded 9 days of email to find the news of the death of Chris Tinsley, I feel very sad and sympathetic toward those who survive him and loved him. I deeply admired the man and wish I had known him personally to tell him so, like so many others whose messages I have read. As with Stephan Marinov, we must remember him in his devotion to our common desire for knowledge and progress. By his delightful wit and intelligence, he will live on in our hearts and minds, at the very least. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 06:46:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA14367; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:39:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup Subject: Re: Supercritical Water-Brick O-U Heat Pipe? To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19971005.060212.3182.7.fsparber juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"K6g1y2.0.MW3.JhEEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > > On Sat, 4 Oct 1997 22:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Dan Quickert > writes: > >>DISCLAIMER: Fill the pipe with bricks and the water-alkali > >>solution, seal and heat AT YOUR OWN PERIL! > >> > >>Over a campfire,Dan Q.? :-) > > > >Frederick, if we leave one end open, I believe you have invented brick > >mortar! > > Spoken like a true Mason, Dan. :-) > > >This has the makings of a strong theoretical foundation... hey, point > >that > >thing the *other* way. > > > >(I hope nobody gets grout-chy about these posts ;-) > > Ouch and arrgggh. Keep that up and you will end up with > "cement shoes". :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > >Dan > > > > > I just want to see some concrete results. (Oops - I better duck!) Zack From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 06:52:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA15324; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3438DF55.6F8A earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 07:53:41 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: For Christopher: five Chubb abstracts -Reply] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Vktkr2.0.Ll3.5nEEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from aro-emh1.army.mil (ARO-EMH1.ARMY.MIL [132.193.0.2]) by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA03832 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 05:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usaro-Message_Server by aro-emh1.army.mil with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 08:42:17 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 08:42:10 -0400 From: Robert Reeber To: design73 aol.com, puthoff@aol.com, tchubb@aol.com, rollo@artvark.com, jonesse astro.byu.edu, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, "76002@1473"@compuserve.com, 100433.1541 compuserve.com, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rmforall earthlink.net, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, vortex-L@eskimo.com, jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, storms@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n lanl.gov, perkins3@llnl.gov, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, ceti@onramp.net, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, yekim physics.purdue.edu, blue@pilot.msu.edu, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, wireless rmii.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, g-miley@uiuc.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, dennis wazoo.com, sarfatti@well.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov Subject: For Christopher: five Chubb abstracts -Reply For those interested in this topic there is another paper that might be of interest. Cold Fusion in palladium: A more realistic calculation R.H. Parmenter and Willis E. Lamb, Jr. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Vol.87, pp8652-8654 November 1990. Abstract: The Thomas-Fermi-Mott equation is modified to take account of the fact that conduction electrons in a metal may be considered to have an effective mass at wavenumbers comparable with or less than the inverse Debye screening length, but they should be considered to have the free-electron mass at much larger wavenumbers. This modification allows for a more realistic calculation of the fusion rate of deuteron pairs in palladium, this rate being 10(exp-23)sec.(exp-1), comparable with some experimental results. The Oppenheimer-Phillips process enhances the rate by a factor of 2.262. ------------------------------------- The conclusions of the authors regarding cold fusion as summarized in the last paragraph are interesting. One must remember of course that such calculations are only based on current physical theory which remain effectively 0 K calculations. My own experience indicates that our current knowledge of the theory of the solid state is based upon many assumptions and approximations that have varying degrees of validity especially when high pressures and temperatures are considered. ------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 08:11:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA24082; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:05:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:05:29 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Paul Koloc not near death Resent-Message-ID: <"ari_R.0.Cu5.JvFEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paul Koloc is not near death, for now at least, after his second operation in as many weeks. He seems to have a problem with excessive blood clotting. The nurse would take some blood for a lab test and then go back to get some more because it would clot befor she could get it to the lab. This comes at a bad time because the cooperative test firing of his device is scheduled soon at Los Alamos. I told Paul about the alleged claim from Bob Bass that Chris Tinsley was murdered and asked if he saw any conspiracy to do away with him. Paul said no to that. But one would like to have an explanation of his blood clotting problem, which of course can cause strokes and heark attacks. He was told that it was as if the blood samples clot as soon as they come out into the needle. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 09:47:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA06164; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343907A8.7DC6 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:45:44 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Fw: Apparently ONE GRAM of Th transmuted this time!]] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"7d3wj3.0.CW1.JIHEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from pilot04.cl.msu.edu (pilot04.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.14]) by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10655 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 08:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (blue localhost) by pilot04.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id LAA31753; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:48:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199710061548.LAA31753 pilot04.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fw: Apparently ONE GRAM of Th transmuted this time!] To: rmforall earthlink.net Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:48:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard A Blue" In-Reply-To: <343421CC.6B84 earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Oct 2, 97 05:35:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain SO the walls are initially very hot and then cool down. Does not that clearly prove that they simply don't have a clue as to what activity they actually measure? Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 11:56:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA10892; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:46:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:46:18 -0700 From: tv juno.com To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 11:45:43 -0700 Subject: DOG device and radioactive strontium titanate Message-ID: <19971006.114544.11606.0.tv juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-11,13,15,17-25 Resent-Message-ID: <"rIIhD.0.yf2.v7JEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Whatever happened to the "DOG" idea someone had that involved barium titanate ? This gave me an idea. Strontium titanate has similar ferroelectric properties. What would happen if you made a capacitor with strontium titanate and used strontium 90 isotope (a 0.5 mev emmiter). Seems like it might make a dandy resonant isotopic power supply with a 28 year half life. I know stronitum 90 is nasty to get in you system and is regulated etc. If you put a charge on the strontium titanate capacitor and the beta decay would destroy the dielectric alignments and cause the capacitance to decrease which would make the voltage go up on the capacitor, doing work. The capacitor would act as a beta decay driven electric pump. Might make a far better power supply than say the plutonium RTGs used for space applications with far less weight. Just an idea. What say any of you physicist out there ? Tim ( tv juno.com ) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 13:36:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA03607; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:26:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:26:31 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:32:26 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ten steps forward, fifty back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"u8c2D1.0.Du.sbKEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, William Beaty wrote: >>Oh rats. Um. Has anyone been keeping personal copies of the huge >>vortex-L archive files? Only the last couple of months are a problem. -snip-- >> >>Might anyone by chance still have vortex707.zip and vortex708.zip? And >>even "current month?" (which would have september messages) >> >>.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >>William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >>EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >>Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page >> >> I've most of them.. (95+%) used to keep the test msg too, but with freenrg-l and vortex-l Interlaced, you might have to manually sort.. If anyone has 'em seperated more precisely that would be best.. else, just tell me were to send 'em. This aren't THE .zip's, but daily (as time BY RECEIPT of) at my server. good luck! -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 14:05:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA10845; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:57:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:57:17 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:57:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Where does the energy come from? Priority: urgent X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3CD10F5508 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"mRTgj.0.Cf2.h2LEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: OK, I've got a question on superconductors and where the energy comes from. First we have a superconductor, say, one tenth of a degree above the critical temperature. A magnet is sitting on this superconductor. We then lower the temperature the requisite one tenth of a degree and ZING!, the magnet jumps up due to the diamagnetic properties of our superconductor. The question is, can I say that I did only a small amount of work (lowering the temp. of the superconductor) and got a bigger amount of work done on my magnet? Or is crossing the critical temp. like a phase change where you need more heat flow out of the object than just the heat capacity times the change in temp. you want? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 14:06:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA15586; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 13:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34394D27.7643 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:42:15 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Paul Koloc not near death References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dot4G2.0.Op3.DrKEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > > Paul Koloc is not near death, for now at least, after his second > operation in as many weeks. He seems to have a problem with excessive > blood clotting. (snip) This comes at a bad time because the cooperative test firing of his > device is scheduled soon at Los Alamos. (snip) Thanks for the update on Paul's condition, Larry. I hope he is not suffering from low-budget-experimenter's-syndrome - that is, having some reaction to his long-time experimental environment. Anyway, I hope Paul can get this condition cleared up - I'm waiting to hear the results of his Los Alamos tests. Good health and good luck to Paul ------------Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 15:01:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA22776; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34394D18.8C1 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 15:42:00 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Re PNNL's Report on CG's LENT process experiment]] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"DU6c92.0.bZ5.-eLEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pilot15.cl.msu.edu (pilot15.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.25]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA08435 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (blue localhost) by pilot15.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id RAA91042; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:16:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199710062116.RAA91042 pilot15.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re PNNL's Report on CG's LENT process experiment] To: rmforall earthlink.net Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard A Blue" In-Reply-To: <342A6550.2C46 earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Sep 25, 97 08:21:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Rich, The PNNL report indicating that all the thorium is accounted for -- just plated out on various components of the apparatus rather than all remaining in solution -- is, of course, likely correct. Certainly Liversage never did anything that could be called a "test" to locate all the thorium. I also note that there is now some admission that the walls of the reaction cell are radioactive at the completion of a run so does that not contradict earlier assertions that there was no activity deposited on the walls? Of course there remains the problem I noted earlier that with the gamma probe such as used by Liversage there is, in fact, no measurement of the thorium activity at all. The radiation detected is all from daughters of the thorium decay, and nothing is done to determine which daughters are being detected. Since the daughters can be chemically quite different a chemical process, such as electrolysis, can hardly be expected to preserve any sort of equilibrium between the thorium and its daughters. This stuff is just garbage. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 15:07:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20303; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:00:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:00:07 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971007000225.007ff290 galileo.pi.infn.it> X-Sender: jwinter galileo.pi.infn.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 00:02:25 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Where does the energy come from? In-Reply-To: <3CD10F5508 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X_zje3.0.4z4.czLEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jay Olson wrote: >OK, I've got a question on superconductors and where the energy comes >from. First we have a superconductor, say, one tenth of a degree >above the critical temperature. A magnet is sitting on this >superconductor. We then lower the temperature the requisite one >tenth of a degree and ZING!, the magnet jumps up due to the >diamagnetic properties of our superconductor. The question is, can I >say that I did only a small amount of work (lowering the temp. of the >superconductor) and got a bigger amount of work done on my magnet? >Or is crossing the critical temp. like a phase change where you need >more heat flow out of the object than just the heat capacity times >the change in temp. you want? A good question! I too would like to hear an authoritative answer but I doubt we will get one on this forum. The comment I wanted to add was that Harold Aspden pointed out a very similar situation with ferromagnetism. It is a very faint memory but it goes something like :- If you have some ferromagnetic material above its Curie temperature in the field of a permanent magnet then if the temperature is allowed to fall below the Curie value, the ferro- magnetic material suddenly becomes a magnet and can do a small amount of work. This temperature variation can obviously be cycled to get the effect to occur repeatedly. If I remember rightly (and it is a very faint memory) he did approach academia with the question and they did *not* have an answer for where the energy came from - at least for the single transition from unmagnetised to magnetised. If someone is on familiar terms with Harold maybe he would be a good one to ask. We should at least search his writings for his mention of the problem, as a first step. Incidentally did you know that this is the principle on which the older style Weller Temperature Controlled soldering irons worked. The tips have a lump of some ferromagnetic material in them with a Curie temperature set at the required temperature (ie if they have a "6" stamped on the inside end of the tip then it is approximately 600F, "7" corresponds to 700F, etc) There is a permanent magnet in the handle somewhere and when the temperature drops, then the magnetic field turns on and pulls a little switch in to turn the power back on and heat it up again. You can pull the tip in and out while it is cool and feel the magnetic force and the switch clicking. So maybe the tiny click of a Weller soldering iron switching on and off actually makes it slightly overunity!! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 16:21:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA03857; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 15:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:55:49 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199710062255.XAA25830 popmail.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dominic Murphy Subject: Chris Tinsley Resent-Message-ID: <"MCbYI2.0.By.PoMEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was very sorry to read of Chris Tinsley's death. He helped me try to tell a little of the the truth about the vital subject of new energy technology. Our future has lost a good friend. Dominic Murphy 44+ (0)181 747 0499 0973 886770 (mobile) dominic dircon.co.uk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 17:59:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA30881; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:53:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:53:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971006205720.00a31cc0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 20:57:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: DOG device and radioactive strontium titanate Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19971006.114544.11606.0.tv juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"A4slx.0.NY7.FWOEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:45 AM 10/6/97 -0700, tv juno.com wrote: >Might make a far better power supply than say the plutonium RTGs used for >space applications with far less weight. Tell me another one. The way that the RTGs work is that the Plutonium decays through an Alpha emitter chain. This leaves the Plutonium containing electrodes positively charged with respect to the walls. The reason for using Plutonium is to get a long battery life, earlier units, liek those on the Voyagers used elements with much shorter half-lives. (And all this nonsense about the risk of Plutonium if the launch vehicle explodes is just that, nonsense. The form the Plutonium is in is one studied for safe storage. Plutonium metal would be a huge risk, Plutonium salts some risk, but plutonium oxide in a ceramic? Remember these things are designed to withstand a hundred years of radiation. Even if you ripped one of the canisters open and swallowed the electrode, you would only have a statistically higher risk of cancer.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 20:45:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA10008; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3439BBF9.44FE mediacity.com> Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 20:35:05 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: More Schauberger Pages? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QWpMw3.0.HS2.tjQEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyone know of any additional Viktor Schauberger Pages out there? Currently I have these: [http://www.cse.hks.se/~di6jenl] Jens Landgre/Schauberger [http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/evolving/water.htm] Harry & Liz/Schauberger [http://www.brainmind.com/schauberger.html] Brainmind/Schauberger [http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/turbine.htm] Egel/Schauberger [http://www.aktivdata.com/uvo] Wasserbelebung/Schauberger [http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135/victor.htm] Schauberger's Inventions All are linked from: [http://www.mediacity.com/~muse/schau.html] Millennium From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 20:52:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA28101; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:47:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:47:22 -0700 Message-ID: <34121E5A.62ED1797 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 15:24:10 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Where does the energy come from? References: <3CD10F5508 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zsss13.0._s6.83REq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The same question can be asked of one of Tesla's first patents (I think it may have been THE first) where a magnet is heated about critical temp (and losses all magnetic field) and a piece of soft iron is let to fall away until the magnet cools a bit and attracts it again. Jay Olson wrote: > OK, I've got a question on superconductors and where the energy comes > from. First we have a superconductor, say, one tenth of a degree > above the critical temperature. A magnet is sitting on this > superconductor. We then lower the temperature the requisite one > tenth of a degree and ZING!, the magnet jumps up due to the > diamagnetic properties of our superconductor. The question is, can I > say that I did only a small amount of work (lowering the temp. of the > superconductor) and got a bigger amount of work done on my magnet? > Or is crossing the critical temp. like a phase change where you need > more heat flow out of the object than just the heat capacity times > the change in temp. you want? > > JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 00:48:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA05344; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971007002234.00e10950 aa.net> X-Sender: mwm aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 00:22:37 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Mandeville Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hVNJK2.0.OJ1.8GUEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:07 PM 10/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >Nowadays I spend my time more in lurking and enjoying the ups and downs of >Vortex. > Only occassionally do I lurk Vortex these days as I work on my book which is rather far afield of the Vortex focus. Thus it is to my great dismay to hear of Chris's death. In correspondances with him in 1995 and 1996 on Vortex, I felt I had found a genuine electronic friend, a man you could count on to give his best with impeccable regard to human ethics and intellectual honesty. He taught me quite a bit about this form of communication and interaction. I had looked forward to meeting him in person someday in England. Well, Chris, I hope you will have an even better vantage looking in from the outside. Best Wishes, Michael Wells Mandeville, Redmond USA "Return of the Phoenix" at http://www.aa.net/~mwm/phoenix/phoenix.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 05:19:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id FAA24785; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971007071539.ZM9954 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:15:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: Michael Mandeville "Re: Chris Tinsley" (Oct 7, 2:35am) References: <3.0.32.19971007002234.00e10950 aa.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Lurking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"Qbgu21.0.A36.kVYEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Oct 7, 2:35am, Michael Mandeville wrote: > Only occassionally do I lurk Vortex these days as I work on my book which > is rather far afield of the Vortex focus. There was one? ha ha Don't be a stranger. Can't speak for everyone, but I am interested in hearing of your progress. There are spin off issues that are relevant to some discussions here. I look forward to reading your book. Let us know when it's ready. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 05:32:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id FAA25512; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 05:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971007072806.ZM10013 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:28:06 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Biomass Cogeneration Case Study Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"0DIL21.0.RE6.riYEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Probably nothing new, but this was an interesting site: http://www.crest.org/renewables/dc-cogen/index.html -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 06:09:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA28400; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 06:04:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971007090307_1755310574 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Resent-Message-ID: <"he48S1.0.gx6.8DZEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a post of Oct. 4, 1997, Scott Little thought that he had found a contradiction on BlackLight Power's website. Scott quoted his email to Mills dated Sept. 28, 1997, which read in part, "In Part 1 of the Detail on Technology you say that the n = 1/integer states of hydrogen are non-radiative and transition between, say, the n=1 and n=1/2 states requires a resonant collision to remove the transition energy. Later in the Extreme UV Proposal you propose an experiment to observe the UV radiation from these transitions. Am I misreading something here?" I think so; and it's not surprising that Scott didn't hear from Mills, since Scott's post of Oct. 4 suggested that he didn't take either Mills or his hydrino hypothesis seriously. First of all, in the title of Scott's post, he misspelled Mills' name (again); and it's a hard name to misspell. His last name isn't Mill, and the possessive form isn't Mill's. His last name is Mills, and the possessive form would be either Mills'es or the more contemporary Mills'. Secondly, there's no contradiction. Like other atoms, which don't radiate most of the time, the hydrinos can fairly be called nonradiative. But the signature of the first couple of hydrino states lies in the extreme ultraviolet (EUV). I think that means that when a hydrogen atom is catalyzed to a fractional quantum state, an EUV photon is emitted, and that once a hydrino is formed, it doesn't radiate unless it's catalyzed again, to a lower hydrino state. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 08:01:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA26022; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:54:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:54:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:54:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710071454.JAA18884 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Resent-Message-ID: <"r8a4s1.0.RM6.MqaEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:03 10/7/97 -0400, Stolper wrote: >I think so; and it's not surprising that Scott didn't hear from Mills, since >Scott's post of Oct. 4 suggested that he didn't take either Mills or his >hydrino hypothesis seriously. Wow, Tom, how'd you infer all that from my simple question? FYI, we are presently attempting to replicate the excess heat claims for the Ni-H2O-K2CO3 system that Mills reports multiple confirmations for. >I think that means that when a hydrogen atom is catalyzed >to a fractional quantum state, an EUV photon is emitted... Here's a quote from Part 1 of Mills' (thanks) Detail on Technology: "similarly the n=1 state of hydrogen and the n=1/integer states of hydrogen are nonradiative, but a transition between two nonradiative states is possible via a resonant collision, say n=1 to n=1/2. In these cases, during the collision the electron couples to another electron transition or electron transfer reaction which can abosrv the exact amount of energy that must be removed from the hydrogen atom, a resonant energy sink." Mike Carrell suggests that the EUV photon comes from the K ion that carried away the energy. That is a possible explanation. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 09:34:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA19193; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:28:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:28:46 -0700 Message-ID: <343A7383.2A7A mediacity.com> Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:38:11 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Alexis Guy Obolensky Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KjY6g1.0.kh4.yCcEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have a 'new' superluminality/overunity Guy Obolensky page at [mediacity.com/~muse/obolensky.html], but am having difficulty digging up all the references. Guy loves phone calls, and is talkative and informative, but when it comes to correpondence he's a zilch. I've got his 1988 Tesla presentation "The Mechanics of Time", but want a copy of his 1986 Tesla presentation "The Magnetic Force is Faster than Light". Anyone want to swap? Also, I have his (pithy) "Research Notes" article from Apeiron, June 1993 -- but do not have a copy of his presentation at this years' 1997 Colorado Conference. I also have some Kozyrev and other related reference papers he uses. Exchanges anyone? My mailing address for one more week is: Post Office Box E, Menlo Park CA 94026 Assuming I go ahead and take up my responsibilies at the DePalma Institute (sans DePalma), there will be another address for the week after that. [Which I will confirm by the end of this week...] Millennium From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 10:39:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA04538; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:33:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:33:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:33:21 +0100 (BST) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: I only knew Chris a short time but Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RUxx01.0.o61._9dEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortex, I was lurking. My condolences to all of Chris' family and friends. A superb, warm, intellect. A fine wit. A good scientist and engineer. I'm deeply saddened and shocked. We spoke by phone and he had time for people. He was a really decent chap with stacks of integrity. The fight for clean energy on vortex and freenrg has lost one of its finest knights. So let's win the battle for him. Not many people you can call heroes nowadays. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 14:10:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA04713; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971007155927.ZM13729 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:59:27 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Viewing Tiny Electric and Magnetic Fields in Real Time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"vwwMX1.0.Z91.kFgEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There was some discussion not long ago regarding what the actual physical manifestations of magnetic lines of force look like. Aparently someone else was interested too. I was surfing about and found this page: This research was reported by Tsukasa Hirayama, Guanming Lai, Takayoshi Tanji, Nobuo Tanaka, and Akira Tonamura in the 15 July 1997 issue of the Journal of Applied Physics (vol. 82, p. 522). Technique for viewing a submicroscopic object's electric and magnetic fields in real time. Three electron waves descend upon the sample. One of the waves passes directly through the object, and its wavefront shifts after it interacts with the object's electric and magnetic fields. The other two waves serve as "reference waves"; the biprisms (shaded circles) deflect these waves so that they combine with the "object wave" to form an interference pattern on the image plane, where it is recorded onto a film or camera. The interference pattern provides direct information on the object's electric and magnetic fields. With their technique, the researchers can view tiny electric and magnetic fields with details as small as tens of nanometers, at a rate of 30 images per second with their current CCD camera (and potentially more with a faster-speed camera). This is useful for studying how electric and magnetic fields emanating from a particle change with conditions such as time and temperature. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 16:32:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA10051; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:22:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:22:08 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 23:21:22 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <343dbf61.7482795 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199710071454.JAA18884 natasha.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <199710071454.JAA18884 natasha.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IgBwl2.0.sS2.UGiEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:54:06 -0500 (CDT), Scott Little wrote: [snip] >"similarly the n=1 state of hydrogen and the n=1/integer states of hydrogen >are nonradiative, but a transition between two nonradiative states is >possible via a resonant collision, say n=1 to n=1/2. In these cases, during >the collision the electron couples to another electron transition or >electron transfer reaction which can abosrv the exact amount of energy that >must be removed from the hydrogen atom, a resonant energy sink." > >Mike Carrell suggests that the EUV photon comes from the K ion that carried >away the energy. That is a possible explanation. [snip] The true nature of this problem doesn't really become apparent until one looks at higher transitions, e.g. 1/5 -> 1/6. According to Mills' book (The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics), Table 5.1 on page 137, the difference in energy between these two levels is 489.6-340.1=149.5 eV. However, in order to "trigger" this transition, it is necessary to resonantly remove only 27.2 eV of energy. The remainder 149.5-27.2 = 122.3 eV is then emitted as an EUV photon. At least this is how I understand it to work. Mills explains this by saying that the initial resonance conditions are altered by the transition itself. (IOW the transition doesn't happen at all without the resonant removal of the 27.2 eV; hence the transition is not spontaneous). Now that said, there is IMO still somewhat of a problem in as much as Mills does indeed *appear* to correlate cosmic EUV frequencies with the *total* energy difference between stable states, rather than with (the difference between stable states minus the resonance energy of the transition; as done above). However this last conclusion on my part could be a consequence of my drowning in his formulae. I would urge the interested reader to obtain a copy of his book (US$50.- hardback 557 pages). It also contains chapters on dihydrino molecules, superconductivity, and antigravity. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 21:09:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA11088; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343AF8CA.28AB earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 22:06:50 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: Liversage responds to Blue re LENT process] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"QqRrO3.0.Aj2.rMmEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Path: nntp.earthlink.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.206.0.75!iagnet.net!tor-nx1.netcom.ca!news.uunet.ca!xenitec!zorch!fusion From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Subject: Re: Liversage responds to Blue re LENT process Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway Message-ID: <199710062233.SAA31246 pilot15.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 22:38:52 GMT I do not disagree with Robert Liversage that a determination of the thorium activity before and after the LENT process may be of some value provided, of course, the appropriate measurements are made using the appropriate techniques. My criticism is that, fundamentally, neither he nor the Cincinnati Group have employed a technique which is suited to their stated purpose. Furthermore it appears that their consultation with Prof. Miley has not been of much help either. One basic problem is the mismatch between the nature of the thorium decay and the type of detector selected for their measurements. 232Th decays by alpha emission. If you are to detect thorium activity you must detect alpha particles! Now is that so difficult to understand? Since the decay of thorium produces no gamma rays a gamma detector, no matter how it is operated, does not detect the decay. It is, however, true that a gamma detector placed near a thorium sample does respond to some activity. It is a matter of some significance to the CG claims that this activity is not, in fact, the activity of thorium but is rather the activity of daughters of the thorium decay. If the thorium is left undisturbed for a suitable period it will reach secular equilibrium with its daughters such that the assay of the activity of an appropriate daughter may serve as a measure of the activity of the thorium present, but anything that may upset the secular equilibrium has the potential for altering the relationship between the activities of the daughter relative to that of the parent thorium. Well, violent electrolysis at elevated temperatures hardly seems to have been selected as a process that will likely preserve the secular equilibrium between thorium and its daughters so any assumption of that being the case is highly questionable. So Mr. Liversage, no matter how well intentioned you are, you simply chose an inappropriate technique, and your measurements are worthless for making a claim for transmutation of thorium. As I noted earlier the chemical concentration of the daughter that you actually detect is likely below your threshold for detection via mass spectrometry so there basically is no connetion between the gamma activity and your mass spectra data. They cannot possibly confirm each other. I am further intrigued by a recent report that the walls of the LENT cell after the reaction process are observably radioactive. You, however, had reported that all the activity had been accounted for with there being essentially none remaining with the apparatus. Did you inform us incorrectly? Perhaps you could clarify that matter for us. I hope you are capable of learning from your mistakes as your interpretation of the activity measurements is clearly incorrect. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 21:11:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA28947; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:05:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:05:48 -0700 Message-ID: <343AF9AC.52E0 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 22:10:36 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, storms@ix.netcom.com Subject: [Fwd: Selection Rule Revealed] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"kROai3.0.A47.PQmEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.magicnet.net!news.thenet.net!news.kei.com!nntprelay.mathworks.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uunet.ca!xenitec!zorch!fusion From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Subject: Selection Rule Revealed Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway Message-ID: <199710062317.TAA125536 pilot15.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:22:17 GMT As I had indicated I will now reveal the selection rule that plays a determining role in the physical process being observed by Prof. George Miley and others. As noted it really does not involve anything new so Miley has not, in fact, uncovered any new physics. He is clearly observing the consequences of one of the most widely recognized and understood selection rules in physics: TA DAAAAH! CONSERVATION OF ENERGY Due to quantization of energy it generally takes a finite amount of energy to change the quantum state of any bound system. That fact, in conjunction with the conservation of energy, accounts for the remarkable stability of matter as we know it. Unless there is sufficient energy available to elevate the nickel nuclei (or whatever) to some higher energy state the nickel simply remains nickel, lead remains lead, gold remains gold, copper remains copper, and silver remains copper. However, should by some unknown process, the energy become available to to transmute those familiar nuclei to something else there immediately become available a potential host of possible outcomes. If you upset the applecart it is likely that apples will roll everwhere. So we either do not have energy available to do anything or we have enough to do lots of things. The experimental outcome claimed by George Miley must logically fall into one of those two catagories. Either the outcome is totally determined by the lack of sufficient energy to allow transmutations or energy is available that is sufficient to produce a wide variety of outcomes. George Miley, if he is honest, logical, and sincere as he presents himself should be willing to state how his claimed experimental outcome can possibly be constrained to just nuclear ground states of stable nuclei. My assertion is that the only selection rule that can reasonably account for such a result is that energy conservation prevents any nuclear transmutations. There simply is never enough energy available for a transmutation to occur. Of course that is just exactly what we should expect! Chemistry does not induce nuclear reactions because it does not deliver the required energy. Should the required energy be available than the constraint that prevents the production of unstable states is removed. Conversely the absence of unstable states in the product mix can only be the result of there not being sufficient energy available. Miley is shot down by his own data and the CONSERVATION OF ENERGY. The "massive nuclear transmutations" claimed by Miley are simply the result of his erroneous interpretation of his data. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 04:04:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id EAA15814; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 04:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <342E39E9.4970BA6E microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:35:13 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Success Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NJ1te1.0.zs3.JWsEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, >>>>>>>>>>>>> GREAT NEWS <<<<<<<<<<<< Just got back and the first manufactured SMOT Mk4 rollaround ramp worked first time out of the box. Well, it did need a little polishing. The design is milled out of a solid 75 x 50 x 25mm perspex block. The magnet arrays just drop into place. The rolling surfaces need to be hand finished at this stage. I have today ordered 50 units. Will update by status page with the details. Dropped off a roll of film at the local store. Real photos soon. Now to the 1,200 emails. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 05:07:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id FAA19611; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 05:05:26 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:00:02 -0600 Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Message-ID: <19971008.060004.9726.0.fsparber juno.com> References: <199710071454.JAA18884 natasha.eden.com> <343dbf61.7482795 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-16,18-20,23-24,26-38 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"y3Vf11.0.Ho4.3StEq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 23:21:22 GMT rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) writes: > >The true nature of this problem doesn't really become apparent until >one looks at higher transitions, e.g. 1/5 -> 1/6. >According to Mills' book (The Grand Unified Theory of Classical >Quantum Mechanics), Table 5.1 on page 137, the difference in energy >between these two levels is 489.6-340.1=149.5 eV. However, in order to >"trigger" this transition, it is necessary to resonantly remove only >27.2 eV of energy. The remainder 149.5-27.2 = 122.3 eV is then emitted >as an EUV photon. At least this is how I understand it to work. Mills >explains this by saying that the initial resonance conditions are >altered by the transition itself. (IOW the transition doesn't happen >at all without the resonant removal of the 27.2 eV; hence the >transition is not spontaneous). Sounds too grandiose to me, Robin. All of the CF-OU reactions are taking place at a few ev or so. I find GRAND THEORIES OF EVERYTHING a bit suspect. :-) There is a sharp spectral"resonance point"for Potassium at around 0.766 microns (1.5 ev, Near Infrared) that is a good candidate for Light Lepton pair production. All of the "EUV" states will show up as the Protons-Deuterons and electrons "absorb" the LLs forming Hydrinos and Electrinos. > >I would urge the interested reader to obtain a copy of his book >(US$50.- hardback 557 pages). It also contains chapters on dihydrino >molecules, superconductivity, and antigravity. Do you get a cut? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 07:07:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA14994; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:00:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:00:30 -0700 Message-Id: <343B9A6D.A5295332 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 17:36:29 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Success X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <342E39E9.4970BA6E microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sohr_1.0.Cg3.z7vEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *Important note* Watson's posting is dated 28 September and just received. What ever the cause, vortexians who use Netscape mail may not encounter the posting, as the program put it on sorted list regardless when it actually received. Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi All, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> GREAT NEWS <<<<<<<<<<<< > > Just got back and the first manufactured SMOT Mk4 rollaround ramp > worked first time out of the box. Well, it did need a little > polishing. [snip] Hi Greg, This is wonderful news. I get exited to figured out these funny machines works stand alone, violating the common (scientific) practice. Best regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 07:46:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA22368; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:41:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:41:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710081441.HAA10614 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Success Resent-Message-ID: <"_gNOx2.0.KT5.fkvEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, >Just got back and the first manufactured SMOT Mk4 rollaround ramp >worked first time out of the box. Well, it did need a little >polishing. Yes, great news! Looking forward to seeing your photo's of a rollaround and to seeing it for myself! Best Regards, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 08:19:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28315; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:10:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:10:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:09:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Success In-Reply-To: <199710081441.HAA10614 denmark.it.earthlink.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4_OMs3.0.Gw6.H9wEq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Michael Randall wrote: > Hi Greg, > > >Just got back and the first manufactured SMOT Mk4 rollaround ramp > >worked first time out of the box. Well, it did need a little > >polishing. > > Yes, great news! Looking forward to seeing your photo's of a rollaround and > to seeing it for myself! Me too. Does roll-around work? How long does it go for? Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 15:40:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA05864; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:33:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:33:10 -0700 Message-ID: <343C09CC.2552909 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:01:41 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: Life is too short Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sY0OF3.0.XR1.be0Fq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A This is a sad time, I just read of the passing of Chris Tinsley. I had the pleasure of talking with Chris, over the phone, once. His interest and encouragement in my SMOT work was of a great assistance when I was down. I was planning a trip to the UK early next year and presenting Chris with SMOT number 1. If I can locate Sue, its hers. Still can't believe I will not be able to do it in person. Dear Chris, thanks for believing in me ............ Rest in Peace. ============================= Life is too short. Money is not worth the paper its printed on!!!!!!! I plan to fully disclose ALL my work (PMOD, RMOG, RMOD, SMOT) over the next few weeks. Sorry Chris, I didn't do it sooner. Can someone send me a copy of the IE article on the SMOT? I believe Chris wrote it. Thanks. ============================= Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 16:01:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA12625; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343C0EC2.DCD7CE0C microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:22:50 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: DNMEC Project Status Report Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EGLFv1.0.A53.Ky0Fq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here is the current status of my various DNMEC OU projects. More details will be posted to my web site. Will advise as I put the data up. DIY plans will be posted. 1) PMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. DC power out 78mw. Working on a 12V 10A unit at present. The TEP guys are getting warm. 2) RMOG ...... Runs in self powering mode. 165 RPM no load. Have driven a small generator at 100mw. Working on a 3000 RPM unit with 100w of 50Hz output. Muller is warm and cold. 3) RMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. Very little power out. Complex to build toy. Project finished. 4) SMOT ...... Runs in self powering mode. Very little power out. Building 50 units at present. My current efforts are on the PMOD and RMOG units. I plan to have small PMOD and RMOG demo units for sale early in 1998. Planning a speaking / demo / selling trip to the US and Europe mid 1998. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 16:10:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA14459; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:06:01 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:56:00 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <343e0e9d.5312230 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199710071454.JAA18884 natasha.eden.com> <343dbf61.7482795@mail.eisa.net.au> <19971008.060004.9726.0.fsparber@juno.com> In-Reply-To: <19971008.060004.9726.0.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"V_fys1.0.nX3.L71Fq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 8 Oct 1997 06:00:02 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote: [snip] >>I would urge the interested reader to obtain a copy of his book >>(US$50.- hardback 557 pages). It also contains chapters on dihydrino >>molecules, superconductivity, and antigravity. > >Do you get a cut? :-) > >Regards, Frederick > No. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 16:27:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA21422; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:17:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:17:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:17:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: DNMEC Project Status Report In-Reply-To: <343C0EC2.DCD7CE0C microtronics.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vYiFf3.0.eE5.cI1Fq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Hi All, > > Here is the current status of my various DNMEC OU projects. More > details will be posted to my web site. Will advise as I put the data > up. DIY plans will be posted. > > > 1) PMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. DC power out 78mw. > Working on a 12V 10A unit at present. > The TEP guys are getting warm. > > 2) RMOG ...... Runs in self powering mode. 165 RPM no load. > Have driven a small generator at 100mw. > Working on a 3000 RPM unit with 100w of 50Hz output. > Muller is warm and cold. > > 3) RMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. Very little power out. > Complex to build toy. Project finished. > > 4) SMOT ...... Runs in self powering mode. Very little power out. > Building 50 units at present. What can I say? This seems incredible. Can you please video tape the RMOD and RMOG and turn them into MPEGs? In any case Chris Tinsley would have been (is?) extremely happy to see full disclosures on these. If you have the goods you be rewarded hansomly! Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 17:33:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA24179; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:27:06 -0400 From: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> Subject: Life is too short Sender: Chris Tinsley <100433.1541 compuserve.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg , List Server Newman , List Server NeoTech Message-ID: <199710082027_MC2-2347-A38D compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"FbgmM2.0.dv5.AL2Fq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg, This is from Sue, using Christopher's set-up. Sorry, I am not yet receiving Vortex messages in my own right - Gene Mallove said he will arrange for this because I struggle with this ancient DOS software that he liked so much. I am only used to Windows, which, in typical Tinsley style, he said was invented to leave one hand free for other more pressing pursuits !!! He was very keen on your SMOT work and we have the many and varied tracks and magnets to prove it. We worked on this for a long time and he always hoped it would come to fruition. I saw the last messages you posted and Jed Rothwell and Gene Mallove saw them too. They are over in the UK at the moment, staying with us. I truly hope this thing pans out. We're all very pleased and excited at that prospect. I would love to have SMOT No. 1. I'd treasure it. Thank you. Yes, you MUST visit when you get over here. I would like that very much and I'm sure there are many other "techies" in the UK who would come along to meet with you also. It was quite funny, when we were working on the SMOTs, that I could, for some reason, me being a non-techie and all that, manipulate the magnets better than Christopher could. He used to leave me to play with the array and I had great fun trying to replicate your results with the ramp set-up. I sincerely hope this is the start of something wonderful. We all want that. With love Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 18:14:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id SAA28550; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: tv juno.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:06:04 -0700 Subject: Re: DNMEC Project Status Report Message-ID: <19971008.180605.9790.0.tv juno.com> References: <343C0EC2.DCD7CE0C microtronics.com.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-14 Resent-Message-ID: <"6hZo01.0.wz6.aw2Fq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, Great news about the PMOD, RMOG, and SMOT working ! Worth another look at the TEP eh ? Combine what Greg said with the TEP hmmmm........ Are you another Tesla or Edison ? Please don't let your inventions get "lost" like T.H. Moray did with the radiant energy device. Tim Vaughan ( tv juno.com ) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 18:42:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA24473; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:34:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:34:32 -0700 Message-ID: <343C344C.61FFF039 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:03:00 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: DNMEC Secrets Reveiled Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lk6cd1.0._z5.cI3Fq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here are the basic DNMEC OU secrets I have discovered. 1) PMOD. If we have a coil and ferrite core, it is possible to time separate the current applied to the coil by an external Emf source and the resultant back Emf generated as the ferrites domains align. I have found that there is a time delay of approx 20-30ns from the application of the coils H field and the domains starting to rotate into alignment and producing a back Emf. If the coil is driven for only 20-30ns, only a small amount of self induced back Emf is generated (the coil acts like the ferrite is not there). After the 20-30ns wide drive pulse, the coils H field is gone but the domains are still moving (they have inertia) and will generate quite a large back Emf which can be tapped. 2) RMOG. If we have a magnetic circuit with a air gap and a magnet and coil directly on the two sides of the gap and a moving ferrite in the air gap. As the ferrite approaches the gap, the magnetic circuits total reluctance drops and flux increases. The system reluctance is largely determined by the position of the ferrite in the air gap. As the approaching ferrite is causing a decrease in system reluctance, the coil will produce a Emf in response to the increasing flux density flowing through it. If the coil is shorted, it will produce a current flow and resulting flux which will attempt to oppose the increasing system flux. If the coil is positioned at one edge of the air gap and a magnet is positioned at the other, the opposing coil flux increases the flux density in the space occupied by the approaching ferrite. This increased flux density increases the ferromagnetic force of attraction into the gap. When the ferrite reaches the point of max flux density (near the outer edge of the gap) the coil is opened. The resultant forces cause more attractive force into the gap than drag back forces as the ferrite exits. By controlling the timing of the shorted coil, Rpm can be controlled as a rotary load is increased. 3) SMOT, RMOD. Magnetic fields are not symmetrical when dealing with ferrite attractive forces. The ferrite attractive force is related to the square of the flux density. Electromagnetic induction and most EM theory is related to the flux density. This is why a SMOT gate is not symmetrical. The RMOD exit is superior as the ball exits at 90 deg to the array. That's why a ball will climb the ramp in one direction but not in the other. A 5 x 5 SMOT Mk2 array positioned in the centre of a piece of 500mm long board with some N gauge track down the centre will show this effect. Very little tilt of the board will be required to roll a ball through the array from top to bottom (5,4,3,2,1), but over 40mm of tilt will be required to roll a ball through from bottom to top (1,2,3,4,5). Not directly OU, but a very strong proof of non-symmetry in SMOT magnetic arrays. More later. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 22:40:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA25195; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710090529.WAA01337 germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: DNMEC Project Status Report Resent-Message-ID: <"lMJUl3.0.Z96.Gn6Fq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote, >On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Here is the current status of my various DNMEC OU projects. More >> details will be posted to my web site. Will advise as I put the data >> up. DIY plans will be posted. >> >> >> 1) PMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. DC power out 78mw. >> Working on a 12V 10A unit at present. >> The TEP guys are getting warm. >> >> 2) RMOG ...... Runs in self powering mode. 165 RPM no load. >> Have driven a small generator at 100mw. >> Working on a 3000 RPM unit with 100w of 50Hz output. >> Muller is warm and cold. >> >> 3) RMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. Very little power out. >> Complex to build toy. Project finished. >> >> 4) SMOT ...... Runs in self powering mode. Very little power out. >> Building 50 units at present. > >What can I say? This seems incredible. Can you please video tape the RMOD and >RMOG and turn them into MPEGs? In any case Chris Tinsley would have been >(is?) extremely happy to see full disclosures on these. If you have the goods >you be rewarded hansomly! Yes, it all seems incredible. Looking forward to hearing more of your discoveries. And to when we can buy a unit to power our homes! :-) Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 22:58:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA29100; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971009055452.006c8a50 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 01:54:52 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Hal Puthoff Reviews UFO Book Resent-Message-ID: <"dLzZ11.0.Z67.t67Fq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I came across a very interesting book review by Hal Puthoff at: http://www.accessnv.com/nids/seti2.html The book reviewed is Synopsis of Unconventional Flying Objects, by Paul Hill. I was surprised to see such a book was available, and after reading the review dropped by amazon.com to order it. Thanks Hal. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 02:06:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA15002; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 01:57:59 -0700 Reply-To: "natvita.co.nz" From: "natvita.co.nz" To: Subject: Re: interesting? Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:02:57 +1300 Message-ID: <01bcd492$22d79a00$eb974cd1 natvita.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GxsH81.0.Kg3.Mo9Fq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, interesting site at http://www.tau.ac.il/ramot/projects.html probably nothing new , ciaou From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 02:19:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA16486; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:15:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:15:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 02:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710090914.CAA03635 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freenrg-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: DNMEC Project Status Report Cc: Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"uSRrd.0.W14.r2AFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, >1) PMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. DC power out 78mw. > Working on a 12V 10A unit at present. > The TEP guys are getting warm. The TEP Team have been getting close to a self powered unit but not yet achieved it. Does the PMOD run without any input source once started? 12V at 10A unit sounds fantastic! We would be interested in how you did it to try to replicate your discovery. When you have the time could you send the circuit to Jean-Louis Naudin? The more researchers working on these wonderful clean energy designs the more it will spread throughout the world to help in Man's energy needs to survive on Earth. Sincerely, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 03:15:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA25022; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 03:11:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 03:11:01 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:04:35 -0600 Subject: Off Topic, Vacuum Pump Help. Message-ID: <19971009.040436.3174.2.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-6,10-11,13-17 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"Sazzr3.0.u66.qsAFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, I'm looking for expertise on axial flow air compressor technology for designing a compact vacuum pump capable of evacuating a cubic foot chamber to about a millimeter Hg in about 2 (two) minutes. The rotor-stator "plates" need to be about 1 1/2 inches diameter and capable of turning at up to 15,000 RPM in a tube of about the same internal diameter and possibly about 4.0 inches long. Quiet running if possible. :-) High strength plastic okay. A.C. or D.C. motor about the same diameter, 1/20 hp? Any Takers? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 07:28:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA11295; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:14:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:14:40 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971009101349_1208696754 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mill's contradiction? Resent-Message-ID: <"9xVyh.0.Im2.EREFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott: maybe I overreacted. I still don't see any contradiction in the passages that you quoted from Mills; but your question to Mills, and the comments by Mike Carrell and Robin van Spaandonk, did get me thinking and made me realize that my understanding of these matters wasn't crystal clear either. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 07:43:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA18420; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:34:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:34:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971009091826.006a667c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:18:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction? In-Reply-To: <971009101349_1208696754 emout08.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8Fpcq.0.kV4.cjEFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:14 10/9/97 -0400, Tom S wrote: >I still don't see any contradiction in the >passages that you quoted from Mills... MY paraphrasing.... - first he says transitions to hydrino states don't radiate. - then he proposes an experiment to look for EUV radiation from said transitions. The above would suffice as an example of "contradictory" in my dictionary... Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 10:06:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA07941; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:28:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:28:54 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971009112829.ZM25835 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:28:29 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Duck Quack Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"6UAuW.0.ux1.4PGFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one seems to know why. Any truth to it? -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 10:57:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA10480; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:47:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Zack Widup Subject: Re: Duck Quack To: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <971009112829.ZM25835 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ZPzjN.0.gZ2.UcHFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, John E. Steck wrote: > Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one > seems to know why. Any truth to it? > > -- > John E. Steck > Prototype Tooling > Motorola Inc. > I have seen this mentioned in several places. I haven't verified it yet but the next time I am near the local waterfowl sanctuary I will listen closely and see if there is any echo. There are usually at least several hundred ducks there at this time of year. Zack From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 11:42:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA07644; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:25:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:25:57 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710091824.LAA14293 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Duck Quack Resent-Message-ID: <"tMUcH1.0.Gt1.p6IFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: >> Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one >> seems to know why. Any truth to it? Zack Widup replied: >I have seen this mentioned in several places. I haven't verified it yet >but the next time I am near the local waterfowl sanctuary I will listen >closely and see if there is any echo. There are usually at least several >hundred ducks there at this time of year. Conventional explanation: Could it be only that most places where ducks hang out, the physical topography isn't too amenable to echoes? Seems like not much to echo off of, with lots of acoustic damping - reeds and cattails and the like. To adequately test this, you may have to go beyond your typical wetland bird sanctuary. (Any duck preserves in the canyonlands? :-) Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 11:53:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA10918; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:37:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:37:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971009132155.006a8364 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:21:55 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mills' Cell effort Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7AlLh2.0.Vg2.tHIFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, We have completed our 1st attempt at the Mills' K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell. The results are available at: http://www.eden.com/~little/mills/mills1.html I won't tell you how it came out but I will tell you that our streak is still alive... For the record (plagarizing a little): Some people want to deny cold fusion. Others only want to talk about its successes. Here at EarthTech we are interested in observing cold fusion. I really don't want to hear any rants about how poorly we performed this experiment or how we shouldn't even be trying to do this work because we haven't read every paper that's ever been written about cold fusion. However, I would like to hear some serious suggestions for making this experiment work. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 12:31:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id MAA19640; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:24:34 -0700 (PDT) From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971009152302_-294627960 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Duck Quack Resent-Message-ID: <"x8pJf1.0.mo4.izIFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-10-09 14:32:54 EDT, you write: << >> Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one >> seems to know why. Any truth to it? >> When Daffy Duck in the cartoons, would talk to someone down in a water well, it would echo. Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 13:26:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA01726; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:08:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:08:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:08:32 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199710092008.NAA07505 big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Duck Quack Resent-Message-ID: <"Y4j4d1.0.qQ.6dJFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one >seems to know why. Any truth to it? > I know, and frog farts don't smell either. I've sniffed and sniffed, all I got was a wart on my nose. Weird, isn't it? Nature has so many secrets, and we have so little time. -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 13:37:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA25146; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971009163237.00aac6e0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:32:37 -0400 To: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Off Topic, Vacuum Pump Help. Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19971009.040436.3174.2.fsparber juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Gy1jm3.0.l86.dwJFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:04 AM 10/9/97 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote: >I'm looking for expertise on axial flow air compressor >technology for designing a compact vacuum pump capable of evacuating a >cubic foot chamber to about a millimeter Hg >in about 2 (two) minutes. Doable, and not too hard. But you have two conflicting requirements. To get such a chamber down to about 10 mm depending on contents is not too hard. Look in the Grainger catalog for 1/2 HP or 1/3 HP pumps. No muss, no fuss, and they get the job done. If that is sufficient, you don't have a problem. (One common use, and the one I am most familiar with, is for contact frames. Used for making lithographic printing plates, blueprints, etc., they basically consist of a sheet of glass with a rubber mat edged with beading. Close the frame, the beading creates a seal, pump out all the air, and now your film is in contact with the plate. Flip 90 or 180 degrees and turn on the light, and you are doing photolithography. The family company made lots of such units, and for others only provided the (multi-kilowatt) light source. Now for the rest of the job. You have three issues involved. First is adsorption. Use the wrong material for the inside of the chamber, and you will be fighting adsorption forever. The first possible solution involves filling the chamber with a wetting agent that displaces the harder to remove species from the walls then boiling the ether/alcohol/methane/etc. out. Two problems, the first is you won't hit your two minute mark, and the second is when you pump all that ethanol vapor into your work area--you may be too drunk to put out the fire. (I've used this method to get a "hard" vaccuum, but never in less than four hours.) Second method involves firing a getter charge. A getter is a low boiling point metal. You pass a current through a getter wire, usually tungsten "wrapped" with the getter, and the metal plates onto the walls. This covers any adsorbed gasses, and traps any remaining gases. This works fast, and was often used in the manufacture of vacuum tubes in the old days. (In fact some CRTs, which are big vaccuum tubes, still use a getter. They use a charge on the shadow mask to keep the getter from getting to the phospor screen.) Getters are cheap and work fast, but you would have to replace the getter every time, and you would get deposits on the walls that could eventually be a problem. Third approach, and the one I would recommend, is to use a "cold trap." Pump, the chamber down, then cool a large plate, or section of pipe to cryonic temperatures. This works well, especially if you cheat. I've done quick hard vaccuums this way, filling the chamber with water, boiling it out, and now a dry ice cooled cold trap works just fine. But again, part of the trick is getting the adsorbed gasses off the walls of the chamber. That is damn hard. (And once you do it, vaccuum welding can be a serious problem. Watch it.) How do you get rid of the adsorbed gasses? It is hard to find a non-porous surface for which this is not a problem. Best I have worked with are certain types of quartz. (Diamond is great. Yeah, right. ;-) Other solutions include, boiling, irradiation with ultraviolet light, heating the walls, etc.) >The rotor-stator "plates" need to be about 1 1/2 inches diameter and >capable of turning at up to 15,000 RPM in a tube of about the same >internal diameter and possibly about 4.0 inches long. Quiet running if >possible. :-) > >High strength plastic okay. A.C. or D.C. motor about the same diameter, >1/20 hp? > >Any Takers? Uh, no! 15000 RPM is not something I want to do with plastic, absent a big cast iron pot. No way! No how! Second, 1/20 HP? Is that your secondary pump only? Even so it seems underpowered. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 13:41:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA25944; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:34:24 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:26:46 -0600 Subject: Free Radical Sterilizer for Home Use? Message-ID: <19971009.142648.3214.3.fsparber juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-8,12-13,16-17,19,21-22,25-26,29-34 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"szmmL2.0.DL6.C_JFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, An idea that came about from all of the science around CF electrolysis.Anyone think you might be interested? If so, I will give you the details on the "cell" configuration by private mail. The vacuum pump inquiry is related to getting a cheap vacuum in the sterilizer "cabinet" for more effective sterilization. About ten or so rotor-stator units (perforated washers on a high speed shaft and same for the stator) should make a decent axial flow compressor-vacuum pump good for about a millimeter Hg (1 Torr) vacuum. With the enormous amount of fresh fruits, vegetables, and berries being imported that are contaminated with various strains of pathogens, there could be a market available for a kitchen-unit ambient-temperature Free Radical Sterilizer that uses electrolysis of an alkaline water solution in a "cell" of proper configuration to provide free radicals such as H, OH, OOH, HO-OH etc., to effect sterilization of the pathogens like E. Coli on the skins of the produce. A mix of water and baking soda NaHCO3 would serve as the electrolyte. A simple vacuum system capable of a vacuum as good as can be attained down to the water vapor pressure of the produce, should do. Suitable shelves to lay the produce on should suffice to get the radicals and water vapor to the "substrate" and possibly a circulating fan could be used for better free radical distribution. If they can do 800 watt microwave ovens for $100.00 at Wal-mart, could one beat that with a home-kitchen sterilizer unit? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 14:50:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA05838; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:41:18 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:34:17 -0600 Subject: Re: Off Topic, Vacuum Pump Help. Message-ID: <19971009.153419.3214.5.fsparber juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19971009163237.00aac6e0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-18,20,22-26,29-31,33-35 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"Od3Q-1.0.7R1.vzKFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:32:37 -0400 "Robert I. Eachus" writes: >At 04:04 AM 10/9/97 -0600, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > >>I'm looking for expertise on axial flow air compressor >>technology for designing a compact vacuum pump capable of evacuating >a >>cubic foot chamber to about a millimeter Hg >>in about 2 (two) minutes. > > Doable, and not too hard. But you have two conflicting >requirements. >To get such a chamber down to about 10 mm depending on contents is not >too >hard. Look in the Grainger catalog for 1/2 HP or 1/3 HP pumps. No >muss, >no fuss, and they get the job done. Thanks, Robert. I have a "Grainger Bible",but I'm talking cheap, like a few dollars worth of high speed motor and a few perforated washers in a plastic tube for a "dry" vacuum.I don't see over 1/10th hp for about 1/2 CFM at 760 mm pressure differential. > >Uh, no! 15,000 RPM is not something I want to do with plastic. Not too bad with an inch or so diameter, but aluminum would be okay and 15,000 rpm was taken as a maximum depending on the rotor-stator design, ie., how much "bite" they have at about 1.3 psi pressure differential at 1/2 CFM. I don't trust those 24,000 rpm routers though, neither does Scott Little. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 15:22:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA09810; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:15:03 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:03:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Duck Quack Message-ID: <19971009.160349.3214.6.fsparber juno.com> References: <199710092008.NAA07505 big.aa.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13,15-20 From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) Resent-Message-ID: <"kL5Rm2.0.8P2.XTLFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:08:32 -0700 knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) writes: >>Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and >no one >>seems to know why. Any truth to it? >> > >I know, and frog farts don't smell either. I've sniffed and sniffed, >all I >got was a wart on my nose. Weird, isn't it? Nature has so many >secrets, >and we have so little time. -Knuke Seems that a lot of folks have a problem smelling moth balls,too. Hard to get their teensy weensy little legs apart. :-) Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 15:45:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20471; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:32:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:32:25 -0700 Message-Id: <343D63ED.58A5498C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 02:08:29 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Mysterious USC Gravity Generator Announcement X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hKTqT1.0.l_4.tjLFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, This from http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/usc.html Regards, hamdi ucar Superconductors and Gravity Shielding: References and Experiments Mysterious USC Gravity Generator Announcement NOTICE: This document has since been withdrawn by USC The University of South Carolina Available Technology Gravity Generator Abstract: The gravitational field generator comprises a stationary superconductor surrounded by a special configuration of RF solenoids. Certain combinations of RF fields will result in the generation of a DC gravitational field in any desired direction in the range of about 10^-22 g m^-2 per ion, depending on ion mass, where g is the acceleration due to gravity. When directed against gravity it acts as an anti-gravity device. When directed horizontally it acts to accelerate or brake a free mass. Appropriate choice of the relative phases of the RF magnetic field causes the gravitational field to form a beam, which will not exhibit the usual inverse square dependence with distance from the source. The production of fields equal to one g is anticipated with this simple arrangement. The theoretical expertise exists to understand controlling mechanisms and to optimize the field for specific applications. Potential Areas of Application: The invention proposed here can be used to generate a force field in any direction whether it be for propulsion or any other similar purpose, thus it has many applications wherever a force is needed. For example, the Gravity Generator could be used both to replace the wheels of a car so that the motion would not be terrain dependent and to accelerate and brake the vehicle. This invention could also be used to lift and propel aircraft, drive generators more efficiently, and produce gravity free environments on Earth for precision manufacturing and scientific research in numerous fields (e.g., chemical engineering, medicine and pharmaceuticals). Main Advantages: In addition to producing the above-mentioned gravitational effects, the Gravity Generator also has the advantages of being inexpensive, due to its simplicity and low power consumption, as well as being non-polluting. Licensing Potential: University seeks licensee and/or joint development. USC ID Number: 96140 Contact: William F. Littlejohn or Daniel J. Antion, Ph.D. University of South Carolina Office of Technology Transfer Byrnes International Building, Suite 501 Columbia, SC 29208 (803) 777-9515 or Fax (803) 777-4136 NOTES: I heard a rumor from a reliable source that this document existed. However, that source would not send me a copy because it was issued under nondisclosure. However, the information the source gave me corresponds with the information in this document, so I believe they are one and the same. This document was printed inside the back cover of James E. Cox's "Antigravity News and Space Drive Technology" journal, July-August 1997. No comments accompanied the text. No copyright notice or other restriction accompanied this document. All other pages of the journal, however, are clearly marked "(c) ANTIGRAVITY NEWS, 1997. COPYING NOT ALLOWED without written permission." However, since this was not placed at the bottom of the page containing this USC announcement, I felt it was OK to copy it. An associate contacted William F. Littlejohn on 6 Oct 1997. This person confirmed that the document is real and is not a hoax. However, it has since been withdrawn by USC. Apparently, initial success in the lab prompted USC to jump the gun and issue this document to many private corporations in hopes of raising funds to build a prototype. However, this initial lab success was found to be invalid, and the experimenters thus requested USC to withdraw the ATA. Back to the Gravity Shielding Page Web Page Created by Pete Skeggs, 9 Oct 1997. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 16:30:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA27261; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:50:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:50:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:50:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FW: Message from Gene Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"O7G5f.0.sf6.IMJFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message, See below .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From: Gene Mallove To: Beaty, William J Subject: Message from Soo, Gene Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 1:53PM Message from Gene Mallove from Nottingham, England. Dear Greg, I deeply appreciate your thoughts about Chris (and thanks also to the rest of you here on Vortex). I am also delighted with your claimed successes and willingness to be very open about everything. Please, as a fitting memorial to Chris Tinsley, would you kindly accelerate delivering to me in New Hampshire and to Soo in Nottingham the SMOT kits. Upon verifying the SMOT we will immediately have major coverage in the next issue of Infinite Energy. (We go to press at the end of October.) As soon as I return to New Hampshire, I will air mail you the first SMOT issue of IE. - Cheers -- Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 17:24:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA14728; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:03:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:03:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199710100003.RAA14648 mx1.eskimo.com> from: HLafonte Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:54:13 EDT To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Cc: newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Chaos Theory In Action (Magnetic toy) Thought provoking? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, I just got a toy catalog in the mail (junk mail). It had a toy in it that I thought was very interesting and I thought I would pass it along. Invented by an Israeli physicist intrigued with the idea of applying chaos theory to magnetism, this is a magnetic version of the old "kinetic ball" toy, updated. The disk magnets swing silently without touching each other, for about 20 minutes. Add in the chaos factor - a unique magnet that disrupts and alters the action-reaction process- and you get a fascinating demonstration of how random forces affect the dynamic transfer of kinetic energy within a system. Magnet filled plastic disks may be reconfigured to create thousands of different effects. It is battery free. The name is Magnaswing $ 24.95 US Dollars website: http://www.realgoods.com This chaos factor is very thought provoking. Any comments? Thanks, Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 18:37:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA01025; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:27:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:27:04 -0700 Message-ID: <343D8413.2B120DB1 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:55:39 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: FW: Message from Gene References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lZdUw1.0.rF.bHOFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > Forwarded message, See below > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > From: Gene Mallove > To: Beaty, William J > Subject: Message from Soo, Gene > Date: Thursday, October 09, 1997 1:53PM > > Message from Gene Mallove from Nottingham, England. > > Dear Greg, > > I deeply appreciate your thoughts about Chris (and thanks also to the rest > of you here on Vortex). I am also delighted with your claimed successes > and willingness to be very open about everything. Please, as a fitting > memorial to Chris Tinsley, would you kindly accelerate delivering to me in > New Hampshire and to Soo in Nottingham the SMOT kits. Upon verifying the > SMOT we will immediately have major coverage in the next issue of Infinite > Energy. (We go to press at the end of October.) As soon as I return to > New Hampshire, I will air mail you the first SMOT issue of IE. > > - Cheers -- Gene Mallove Hi Gene & Soo, I am today (and ALL of the weekend) working on a simple RMOG unit to sent you. Its rotary and self powered. The design will be posted to my site by early next week. Its much more reliable that the best SMOT. To get good SMOT results, you need the exit to be at right angles to the entry. That makes a simple SMOT Rollaround unit hard to build. The RMOD uses right angle exits, but its a bitch to build and a real trick to keep working as it has so many moving parts. Mother nature never looses easily. I except to have several RMOG's built by mid week. They only have ONE moving part (the rotor). Please provide your desired mailing address. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 18:48:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA03593; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:34:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:34:25 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971009213637.00ac2100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:36:37 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Free Radical Sterilizer for Home Use? Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19971009.142648.3214.3.fsparber juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"k-Hr1.0.zt.VOOFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With fresh fruit you won't need or be able to achieve 1 torr. You will also be making fruit compote with most fruits. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 20:42:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA30225; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:34:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:34:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199710100334.WAA09722 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:34:24 (-050 Subject: Re: Off Topic, Vacuum Pump Help. Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19971009.040436.3174.2.fsparber juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"PEyQx.0.1O7.19QFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Frederick > Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 04:04:35 -0600 > From: fsparber juno.com (Frederick J Sparber) > I'm looking for expertise on axial flow air compressor > technology for designing a compact vacuum pump capable of evacuating a > cubic foot chamber to about a millimeter Hg > in about 2 (two) minutes. > > The rotor-stator "plates" need to be about 1 1/2 inches diameter and > capable of turning at up to 15,000 RPM in a tube of about the same > internal diameter and possibly about 4.0 inches long. Quiet running if > possible. :-) > > High strength plastic okay. A.C. or D.C. motor about the same diameter, > 1/20 hp? This sounds just like the new vacuum sealers being sold for home food packing. I don't know what ultimate pressure is produced, but they do work -- though NOT quiet (but not too noisy, either). The home vacuum packing kits cost about $300. I just saw one in the Real Goods catalog, and I've seen another version advertised on TV (and bought it ). -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 20:47:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id UAA31585; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:40:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:40:41 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710100339.UAA25324 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Life is too short Resent-Message-ID: <"pK9y_1.0.Jj7.tEQFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, At 08:01 AM 10/9/97 +0930, you wrote: >This is a sad time, > >I just read of the passing of Chris Tinsley. > >I had the pleasure of talking with Chris, over the phone, once. His >interest and encouragement in my SMOT work was of a great assistance >when I was down. I was planning a trip to the UK early next year and >presenting Chris with SMOT number 1. If I can locate Sue, its hers. >Still can't believe I will not be able to do it in person. > >Dear Chris, thanks for believing in me ............ Rest in Peace. We all still believe in you Greg. >============================= > >Life is too short. Money is not worth the paper its printed on!!!!!!! That for sure. >I plan to fully disclose ALL my work (PMOD, RMOG, RMOD, SMOT) over the >next few weeks. Thank you very much. A very wise and noble thing to do Greg. You will be rewarded by more valuable rewards than just money. >Sorry Chris, I didn't do it sooner. > >Can someone send me a copy of the IE article on the SMOT? I believe >Chris wrote it. Thanks. I could zerox a copy and mail it to you. Just let me know. >============================= > >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 21:34:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA10811; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:22:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: <343DA078.4E39 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 22:26:48 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, halfox slck.uswest.net, storms@ix.netcom.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, ceti onramp.net, design73@aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, dennis@wazoo.com, wireless rmii.com, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com, perkins3@lolnl.gov, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, rl_brodzinski ccmail.pnl.gov, jac@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, droege@fnal.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt. Murray notes: CG tungsten claim Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fyB5D2.0.re2.-rQFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Mills' Cell effort Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:37:45 -0700 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 13:21:55 -0500 From: Scott Little Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Gnorts, We have completed our 1st attempt at the Mills' K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell. The results are available at: http://www.eden.com/~little/mills/mills1.html I won't tell you how it came out but I will tell you that our streak is still alive... For the record (plagarizing a little): Some people want to deny cold fusion. Others only want to talk about its successes. Here at EarthTech we are interested in observing cold fusion. I really don't want to hear any rants about how poorly we performed this experiment or how we shouldn't even be trying to do this work because we haven't read every paper that's ever been written about cold fusion. However, I would like to hear some serious suggestions for making this experiment work. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) Attempt to Observe Excess Heat in a Ni-H2O-K2CO3 Electrolysis System - 9OCT97 Introduction: Dr. Randall Mills reports multiple observations of excess heat in the Ni-H2O-K2CO3 system on the Blacklight Power web page at http://www.blacklightpower.com. In the section entitled Detail on Technology and Representative Technical Support several examples are mentioned: - 24.6 watts out for 4.73 watts in during pulsed current electrolysis. Source unclear, perhaps Mills & Good - pulsed and continuous current electrolysis with Pout/Pin > 37. Mills and Kneizys - pulsed and continuous current electrolysis with 41 watts out and Pout/Pin > 8. Thermacore, Inc. - pulsed and continuous current electrolysis with Pout/Pin > 16. HydroCatalysis Power Corporation. - reproduction of Mills & Kneizys experiment with Pout/Pin ~ 1.67. Noninski -continuous electrolysis with Pout/Pin ~ 2. Noninski w/ Weismann observing at Brookhaven. - electrolysis with Pout/Pin ranging from 2.7 to 3.4. Notoya & Enyo of Catalysis Research Center, Hokkaido U - electrolysis similar to Thermacore with Pout/Pin up to 1.68. NASA Lewis - electrolysis with Pout/Pin ~ 10. MIT Lincoln Laboratories - electrolysis with Pout/Pin ~ 2. Westinghouse Electric Corporation - electrolysis with Pout/Pin 1.28-1.38. Atomic Energy Canada Limited, Chalk River Labs - electrolysis with Pout = .75 watts and Pin = .3 watt (V*I). Moscow Power Engineering Institute - pulsed electrolysis with Pout/Pin = 8.5. Idaho National Engineering Laboratory After reading this list we decided to build a Ni-H2O-K2CO3 cell of our own design and run it in the water-flow calorimeter originally intended for the Ragland triode cell work. EarthTech's Cell: We utilized the cell structure from our Ragland triode experiments. It features a plastic frame that holds the cathode and two anodes (one for each side of the cathode). This frame seals into a 100 ml beaker and has provisions to hold Pd-coated alumina pellets which serve to recombine the electrolysis gasses. We mounted a 1 cm2 piece of Ni Fibrex sheet (a felt-like material made of Ni with a high surface area) in the cathode holder and crimped a Ni lead wire to it. We used 1 in2 pieces of Pt mesh for the anodes (one anode on each side of the Ni Fibrex sheet). We did employ the recombiner pellets. We filled the cell with a 0.3M solution of K2CO3 in H2O. Procedure: Using constant current power supplies (we always drove each anode at approximately the same current as the other anode) we operated the cell at a variety of current levels over a 164 hour period. We employed a liquid displacement apparatus to measure the volume of gas emerging from the cell during operation. Results: This plot shows Pout and Pin plotted vs Time. The vertical scale is 0-10 watts. The horizontal scale is 164 hours and the vertical dotted lines are spaced every 10 hours. As you can see, there was never any obvious indication of excess heat. The next plot allows us to look closer: This plot shows Pout-Pin as a function of time. The vertical scale is -0.1 watts to +0.1 watts. Each of the 7 plateaus in the first plot are represented as mostly horizontal zones in this plot. It is important to notice that the very last plateau was conducted with Pin=0. A systematic error (zero error) caused the output power to read slightly positive during this plateau. The magnitude of this error is approximately equal to the apparent excess heat signals at several of the other power plateaus. In other words, the small excess heat indications above are probably due to a systematic zero error. We did not observe any significant emission of gas from our cell. This means that the recombiner worked properly during the run. It also means that there was no significant absorption of H by the Ni cathode. When Pd cathodes are run in this cell we see 10's of cc's of O2 gas coming out because it is "orphaned" by the H that goes into the Pd. Conclusion: Our Mills experiment shows no detectable sign of excess heat. A 10% excess…less than any of the reported confirmations of Mills' experiment showed…would have produced a prominent positive signal in our experiment. We would like to make this experiment work. Any suggestions? Notes by Rich Murray: Scott Little did succeed. He confirmed other careful, thorough work that found the same no excess heat result. Here are two abstracts: "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100% during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells," JE Jones, LD Hansen, SE Jones, DS Shelton, JM Thorne, Brigham Young U., Provo, Utah 84602, "J. Physical Chem.," 1995, 99, 6973-6979: The purpose of this study is to evaluate claims of excess heat generation during water electrolysis. Several cells were constructed and operated similarly to low-current-density cells described in the literature. All produced excess heat as defined and calculated in the literature reports, but the production of excess heat could be readily terminated by the introduction of various barriers to the migration of hydrogen and oxygen. Remarkably, published reports of excess heat fail to disprove the presence of decreased faradaic efficiency (e.g., current that oxidizes H2 or reduces O2) or systematic calorimetric errors. Illustrative examples of both porblems aare given. Thus, failure to rule out prosaic explanations probably invalidates all the currently available reports of excess heat in both light water--Ni/Pt and heavy water--Pd/Pt cells. There is no compelling evidence that excess heat is of a nuclear origin in such electrolytic cells. "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells," ZS Shkedi, RC McDonald, JJ Breen, SJ Maguire, J Veranth, Bose Corp., Framingham, Massachusetts 01701, "Fusion Technology," Nov., 1995, 28, 1720-1731: Apparent excess heat is observed in light water electrolyic cells containing a variety of nickel cathodes, a platinum anode, and an electrolyte of K2CO3 in H2O. High-accuracy calorimetric measurements show apparent excess heat in the range of 15 to 37 % of input power if a 100% Faraday efficiency is assumed for H2 and O2 gas release. The H2 and O2 gases released during electrolysis are recombined in a vessel external to the cell, and the quantity of recombined H2O is compared with the quantity of H2O expected from 100% efficient electrolysis. The measured Faraday efficiency is shown to be significantly <100%,and conventional chemistry can account for the entire amount of observed apparent excess heat to within a accuracy of better than 0.5%. Notes by Murray: The Jones cells used K2CO3, with currents of 1 to 8 milliamp. The Shkedi cells were run at high current levels of 0.18, 0.35, and 0.6 A. Shkedi: "Because of the high level of interest in heavy water experiments involving the original Fleischmann and Pons configuration, i.e., palladium cathodes in LiOD and D2O electrolytes, a large number of experiments were performed in such cells as well using a large variety of metallurgically different palladium. Twenty eight closed cells and 126 open cells were operated for a total of 1440 and 2760 cell-days, respectively. The heavy water cells were operated at much higher current densities than the light water cells, so the Faraday efficiency should be higher. However, since none of these cells showed any excess heat, no attempts were made to measure the Faraday efficiency." Murray: Little lists 13 claimed positive excess heat results, many by eminent laboratories, but not the above two studies. We see then that a multitude of interesting, convincing positive claims in the cold fusion field may be all invalidated. As my friend Sondra, an acapuncturist, told me tonight at Luby's Cafeteria, "It looks like in science, sometimes you prove you're right, and most of the time you prove you're wrong." I said, "That's real science, for sure!" It is needful to be very cautious indeed in evaluating claims in this field. As an example, in Wayne Green's "Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion) # 23, Sept., 1997, arrived three days ago, page 68-72, Bennett Miller wrote a letter on Sept. 19, 1997, evaluating cold fusion for Dr. Martha Krebs, Director, Office of Energy Research, US Dept. of Energy, and Dr. Robert W. Bass worte a spirited rejoiner to Dr. Krebs, including references to an experiment from the Cincinnati Group: "...a high school level Experiment (in an open glass beaker, which can be done in 20 minutes, with only 400 Volts of AC wall current) demonstrating bulk transmutation of tungsten into iron, cadmium, and sulfur at low energy. This experiment is so straightforward that there is no way to hide behind ambiguities of interpretation of complex recorded data!...the fact that the entire _elementary_ experiment was done quickly at the U. of Cincinnati, _including_ the spectroscopic analysis of the before-and-after results...We have just sent a kit to Scott Little...a half-day experiment upon which I myself am ready to stand or fall." I was reminded immediately that in the last "Infinite Energy", # 13-14, on page 23 gave the ICP/MS data by Robert R. Liversage of Data Chem Laboratories from the Cincinnati Group's Thorium transmutation experiment for Scan #1, Reagent Blank, (unprocessed), 5% nitric acid and 5 % hydrochloric acid, in glass (I presume) vials, as detailed data and computer program estimated possible interferences. Sulfur is mainly mass 32, and has very high Total Intensity of 2,961,796, which Joe Champion says, based on his extensive and difficult experience, is simply an interference by O2. Now, iron is mostly mass 56. The above data has a Total Intensity 22,544 for mass 28, the most abundant isotope of silicon. So, mass 56 could result from Si2, and cadmium, 24 % mass 112, could be SiO4, and tack on an H or two to get Cd 113 (12 %) and Cd 114 (29 %). In turn, mass 28 could itself be N2. Also, for Iron, we might have (CO)2, or even ArO, since Ar is the carrier gas in ICP/MS, or else CON2. Probably, C is a major trace constituent of the tungsten, and can also come from atmospheric CO2. It is clear by now that ICP/MS is an instrument of the devil, perfect for ensnaring innocent Christian missionaries and putting them, bound up helplessly by their own ambitious preconceptions, into a hot pot of data stew, surrounded by ravenous cannibal critics. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 21:52:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA16515; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:44:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:44:58 -0700 Message-ID: <343DB22E.97F1DC84 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:12:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Life is too short References: <199710100339.UAA25324 denmark.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TPo_u1.0.u14.8BRFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > >Can someone send me a copy of the IE article on the SMOT? I believe > >Chris wrote it. Thanks. > > I could zerox a copy and mail it to you. Just let me know. > > Best Regards, > Michael Randall Hi Michael, How about a fax? 61 8 8270 2737. Its to a PC, so I have to fire up the program. Thanks, -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 23:44:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA05681; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:39:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:39:41 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710100639.XAA03924 denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Life is too short Resent-Message-ID: <"ESId23.0.dO1.hsSFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, At 02:12 PM 10/10/97 +0930, you wrote: >Michael Randall wrote: >> >> >Can someone send me a copy of the IE article on the SMOT? I believe >> >Chris wrote it. Thanks. >> >> I could zerox a copy and mail it to you. Just let me know. >> >> Best Regards, >> Michael Randall > >Hi Michael, > >How about a fax? > >61 8 8270 2737. > >Its to a PC, so I have to fire up the program. > >Thanks, > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson Did the fax arrive ok? I enjoyed talking to you and looking forward to the RMOG unit(!) and PMOD circuit :-) Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 00:15:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA10103; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:10:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:10:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:16:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november Reply-To: Steve Ekwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [off topic] Biggest Magnet? FSU Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Resent-Message-ID: <"8M8Xf2.0.mT2.0KTFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Florida's Capital Online News Welcome to The Tallahassee Democrat Online =20 Was the mare doped? Magnet Lab answers this mystery, and more The ever-busy laboratory pursues a myriad of questions. =20 By Leonora LaPeter DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER =20 Phosphorus in the Everglades, fish kills on the Atlantic coast and horse urine from Sweden would appear to have little in common. =20 But they do have a mutual attraction: the most powerful magnets in the world, which are found right here at the National High Magnetic Field Laboratory in Tallahassee. =20 The world's largest magnet lab is also a draw for scientists from around the world who place their names on a three-month waiting list to conduct experiments with the high-powered magnets. =20 "This lab has brought opportunity to people in this area and the students in the Southeast that we never would have imagined," said James Brooks, a Florida State University physics professor at the Magnet Lab. "It's opened up a whole new world to science in the southeast." =20 The 330,000-square-foot lab is in Innovation Park in southwest Tallahassee. It is funded by the National Science Foundation and the state of Florida and is a joint operation of Florida State University, the University of Florida and the Los Alamos National Laboratory. =20 It has about 20 magnets ranging from what will be the world's largest -- 14 tons when construction is completed in the spring -- to a much smaller one that could fit in the palm of your hand. In between, there are a number of magnets that have broken records for generating the highest magnetic fields in the world. =20 These magnets are cylindrical in shape and made up of hundreds of copper or silver-plated coils stacked together inside a housing. Scientists place various materials -- from metals to biological specimens -- into a bore in the centers of these magnets. =20 As electrical currents pass through the material, scientists turn to computer screens for analysis. The higher the magnetic field, the more precisely they can identify the material's components. =20 "Scientists want higher magnetic fields, so they can see more," said Janet Patten, a spokeswoman for the Magnet Lab. "It's like turning up the microscope." =20 And as the magnetic fields increase, scientists are turning the powerful magnets' electrical currents on all sorts of problems, from phosphorus contamination in the Everglades to fish kills on the Eastern seaboard. =20 The lab is close to signing an 18-month contract for $185,000 with the South Florida Water Management District to figure out how to prevent the alteration of the Everglades by fertilizers used in sugar growing. =20 Vincent Salters, a research professor at FSU, said he will take samples of phosphorus-contaminated water from the Everglades and analyze it with a mass spectrometer. It combines the properties of a high-powered magnet with radio waves, enabling scientists to study the phosphorus more closely. =20 Salters said researchers want to determine what kinds of plant debris attract phosphorus. That would allow the water managers to construct wetlands with those kinds of plants, which could soak up the phosphorus before it reaches the Everglades. =20 "We've had many ideas about how we could apply magnetic techniques to environmental problems," Salters said. =20 The mass spectrometer also can be used to analyze coastal waters where an imbalance in various chemical compounds suddenly makes algae grow fast, killing fish. =20 Recent fish kills off the coast of North Carolina and Maryland have prompted Salters and other scientists at the lab to consider seeking a grant from a state or federal environmental agency to analyze the causes of mass fish kills. By studying water samples where the fish kills take place, scientists can begin to understand what is causing the algae blooms, Salters said. =20 The massive magnets also have a number of practical applications. =20 Alan G. Marshall, a FSU chemistry professor and co-inventor of the first mass spectrometer in 1973, is using a higher-powered version to determine in a few minutes the composition of crude oil. This allows oil companies to learn the amount of sulfur in crude oil, which could one day lead them to figure out how to remove the acid-rain causing substance. =20 "If we can determine the identity and amount of sulfur in crude oil, oil companies can better purify the oil to remove the sulfur," Marshall said. =20 The lab gets requests to analyze dozens of compounds, from pharmaceutical drugs to horse urine. Last year, the lab received samples of horse urine from Sweden. Marshall said the lab determined the horses were racers based on their names. Whoever sent the samples wanted to know if the horses were being drugged. Using the magnets, scientists determined the horses had been drugged and were able to identify the specific drugs used, he said. =20 Leonora LaPeter covers higher education. She can be reached at 599-2306. _________________________________________________________________ =20 Posted at 12:15 a.m. EDT Friday, October 10, 1997 =20 All content =A9 1997 The Tallahassee Democrat May not be republished without permission. <--oopps SECRET STUFFshh Questions, comments: [1]telltdo tdo.infi.net References 1. mailto:telltdo tdo.infi.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 04:02:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA04289; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:57:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:57:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCD573.DEB83220 ppp152.enterprise.net> From: Mike Butcher To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Duck Quack Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:01:54 +0100 Encoding: 20 TEXT Resent-Message-ID: <"Gw-xJ.0.x21.neWFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dash, disproved already. ---------- From: HLafonte aol.com[SMTP:HLafonte@aol.com] Sent: 09 October 1997 16:23 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Duck Quack In a message dated 97-10-09 14:32:54 EDT, you write: << >> Here is something odd I ran across. A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one >> seems to know why. Any truth to it? >> When Daffy Duck in the cartoons, would talk to someone down in a water well, it would echo. Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 06:19:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA26041; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 06:14:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 06:14:23 -0700 Message-ID: <343E29DB.C9DDC00D microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:42:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Life is too short References: <199710100639.XAA03924 denmark.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jBbe_2.0.jM6.jeYFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Did the fax arrive ok? I enjoyed talking to you and looking forward to the > RMOG unit(!) and PMOD circuit :-) > > Best Regards, > Michael Randall Hi Michael, Got 2 pages. Looks like there should be more? I intend to post the IE article to my site. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 08:12:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA15873; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:00:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:00:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710101500.IAA01404 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Life is too short Resent-Message-ID: <"XCk6X.0.vt3.eCaFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, >Michael Randall wrote: >> >> Did the fax arrive ok? I enjoyed talking to you and looking forward to the >> RMOG unit(!) and PMOD circuit :-) >> >> Best Regards, >> Michael Randall > >Hi Michael, > >Got 2 pages. Looks like there should be more? Yes, their should be 3 pages. Numbered 59, 60, and 61. Which page didn't make it? >I intend to post the IE article to my site. > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 10:48:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01776; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:19:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:19:28 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971010131704_2055533170 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Seperation of sheet metal with magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"0sRFh2.0.TR.SEcFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, I saw a device many years ago that used a magnet to seperate the individual pieces of sheet metal in a stack, so a worker could get his hands on them. It did not lift them one at a time, but fanned them apart. It was placed on the side of the stack not the top. Does any one know the principle of the process? Thanks, Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 12:26:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA02215; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:02:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:02:11 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:57:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710101857.NAA22975 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: Seperation of sheet metal with magnets To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"-moyO.0.WY.nkdFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 10, 1997 When the magnet is placed sideways to the sheets, each sheet assumes the polarity to be attracted to the magnet. Since each sheet assumes the same north-south configuration, they in turn are repelled from each other, hence the separation. Something similar happens in electrostatics in the demonstration of two metal foils are repelled from each other when touched with a charge. Like charges repel. Like poles repel. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 13:09:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA20971; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:01:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:01:05 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971010155305_1431015388 emout19.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Seperation of sheet metal with magnets Resent-Message-ID: <"45mvf3.0.Q75._beFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: AK, Thanks, Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 13:46:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA21654; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710102029.VAA21223 andromeda.ndirect.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "The Ghost of Nottingham" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:24:50 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: hello from heaven Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"FkU1f3.0.FI5.S3fFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Vorts, We can see all of time up here (you didn't think I'd go down did you?). Christ had a good line in full length toga cabinets, oh, and that Kennedy assasination, naughty naughty! Greg wins a Nobel Prize! and, uh oh, you blow yourselves up with a zpe bomp (Z Bomb) in 2050AD in the fourth multi-media wars 'The beta release war'. Ahem, amen. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 13:49:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA23596; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:12:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199710102011.VAA19874 andromeda.ndirect.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: E.J.Thribb ndirect.co.uk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:07:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: In memoriam Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Resent-Message-ID: <"Lb9Yw1.0.bm5.JmeFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In Memoriam Sir Chris Tinsley So. Farewell then Lord Tinsley CBE DSO QC MP MEP TCP/IP MSDOS (cantab) Editor of Infinite Energy Mag. "Gnorts Vorts." That was your Catchphrase. You were warm But now you are cold No calorimetry Needed then. E.J. Thribb (aged 17.5) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 13:59:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA03694; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:51:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:51:37 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:47:47 -0400 From: Debbie Subject: hello from heaven Sender: Debbie To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199710101648_MC2-2378-8BCA compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"b2TkN2.0.dv.OLfFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You ratbag, Any good leads on a lottery winner? And have we lost our ability to capitalize? (Oh. Your country did that ages ago.) Skippy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 16:41:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19122; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:33:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:33:09 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction?: Another reading Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:10:08 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971010233506275.AAA170 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"uq98M2.0.ag4.nihFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In response to the discussion about Mills' hydrino theory, Scott summarizes his view: ---------- > MY paraphrasing.... > > - first he says transitions to hydrino states don't radiate. > - then he proposes an experiment to look for EUV radiation from said > transitions. > > The above would suffice as an example of "contradictory" in my > dictionary... > > Scott -------------- My reading of Mills' position is this: The hydrino *state* does not radiate, and has therefore gone undetected in nature, because the sub-quantum state violates rules derived from Mills' analysis using the Fourier series --- see his theoretical papers. Mills postulates that the hydrino state may constitute the missing "dark matter" of the universe. Hydrinos can be pumped back to a normal state by hard radiation which will supply the energy given up in hydrino formation, but you then have a normal, passive hydrogen atom minding its own business. Hydrinos do not exhibit the freedom of normal hydrogen atoms to absorb photons and then quickly relax to the normal state by radiation. My previous posts, based on conversations with John Farrell (Mills' former teacher, now colleague), is that the EUV radiation comes from the relaxation of the atoms of the potassium catalyst, which received energy from the forming hydrino, to a normal state, *not* from the forming hydrinos themselves. There is no self-contradiction in the catalysis process as Mills' envisions it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 17:24:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA01670; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:18:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:18:56 -0700 Message-ID: <343EC58F.8D500F1A microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:47:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Life is too short References: <199710101500.IAA01404 sweden.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-I4Lc1.0.yP.lNiFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael Randall wrote: > > Yes, their should be 3 pages. Numbered 59, 60, and 61. > > Which page didn't make it? Hi Michael, The first page, # 59. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 22:13:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA05196; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343F063D.CA19F84B microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:23:17 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Vortex , List Server Freenrg Subject: [Fwd: Magnetic flux velocity ?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AB96198F979963684F36D5A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"vHjmF3.0.yG1.OemFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AB96198F979963684F36D5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson --------------AB96198F979963684F36D5A0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <343F05F7.8402E642 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:22:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mark plug-in.com.br Subject: Re: Magnetic flux velocity ? References: <199710110446.BAA07950 bigbox.plug-in.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marcelo Puhl wrote: > > What will be the Magnetic Flux propagation velocity in FERRITE ? > > Marcelo HI Marcelo, I have measured it at 1.6Us / Mtr. Varies somewhat depending on the material and material geometry. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson --------------AB96198F979963684F36D5A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 22:55:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA09416; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:48:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:48:45 -0700 Message-ID: <343F0633.4B08 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:53:07 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst loc100.tandem.com, ceti@onramp.net, design73@aol.com, blue pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, halfox slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, storms ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, yekim physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, perkins3@llnl.gov, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, puthoff@aol.com Subject: [Fwd: Fw: REVISED: No Adequate CF Theory?] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"HBlLO2.0.yI2.yCnFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.4]) by slovakia.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA19018 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (user06.pahrump.com [205.226.146.106]) by pahrump.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10890 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:48:42 -0700 Message-Id: <199710040648.XAA10890 pahrump.com> From: "Robert Bass" To: "Rich Murray" Subject: Fw: REVISED: No Adequate CF Theory? Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:45:56 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCD056.7E475460" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD056.7E475460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich, ==================================================== --------------Private-------------------------------------- ==================================================== Thanks for posting the 5 Abstracts by the Chubbs. They are on the right track, but their machinery is so difficult to wield that it is hard to get quantitative (as opposed to qualitative) results out of it. Did you ever print out my 18-point comparative Chart? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I would be glad if you would forward the _following_ (_sans_ the previous private comments re Chubbs!) to Vortex-L. Regards, Bob Bass ==================================================== ------------END Private--------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ==================================================== > > From: Robert Bass > Subject: REVISED: No Adequate CF Theory? > > No Adequate Cold Fusion Theory? > > -------------------About ATTACHMENTS---------------- > > Attached are two files: cfchrt01.wpd and cfchrt01.rtf. > > The attached file, cfchrt01.wpd , is a WordPerfect format document > which can be printed out by anyone with access to that word-processor. > > As I had feared, automatic translation to an MSWord-readable > document got the columns misaligned; several correspondents requested > the file in an .rtf format and I apologize for sending them one which > should > be _discarded_ in favor of that _now_ appended as an attachment. (Delete > the former one first; this one has the same name) > The attached file, cfchrt01.rtf , is an MSWord format file in > Rich Text Format which can be printed out using a Microsoft word- > processor that handles .rtf files. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > The eight columns refer to eight theorists (or the first-named > author of multi-author papers). The eighteen rows refer to aspects of > a Cold Fusion theory which in my opinion need to be covered. Note > that "my" theory, sometimes referred to as the "Turner-Bush-Bass" > theory (although I am glad to acknowledge that I have "stood on the > shoulders of giants" in the sense that I have used ideas which I learned > from Schwinger, Turner, Bush, Parmenter & Lamb, Chubb & Chubb > and others) is the _only_ theory which incorporates 17 out of the 18 > points. {Unlike the Chubbs, who take on the three-dimensional aspects > of lattices, and therefore have a theory in which the exact known theory > of the Moessbauer Effect could be included, I have followed Schwinger > in simplifying the lattice down to a one-dimensional array; Schwinger > justified this by quoting Einstein to the effect that initial models should > not hamper their development by being overly ambitious; also one could > point out that the one-dimensional model I use will predict the > Moessbauer Effect correctly, up to a numerical factor of order unity, > and so is at least qualitatively on the right track.) > Note also that "my" theory is the only one which incorporates > the nuclear well explicitly (because I believe that my own theory of > quintuple-well, quadruple potential barriers in quantum mechanics > is the only known rigorous closed-form analytical extension [not using > mere square-wave approximations numerically] of the well-known > theory of triple-well, double barriers in Bohm's book). > I am circulating this chart because I know that in one sense > it needs to be updated: I finished it in June of 1994. (I sent it to all 8 > authors in June, 1994 and added four more "bullets" to the chart after > those four mistakes on my part were pointed out.) If I were to redo > it today, I would certainly want to take acount of recent papers in the > CF context on many-body systems [by Y.E. Kim & A.L. Zubarev] and > on lattice phonons [by P.L. Hagelstein and by M. Swartz], whose > Abstracts I have seen in "Fusion Facts," and other CF newsletters. > Accordingly, comments upon and criticisms of the appended > CF Chart will be welcomed. > Sincerely, > Bob Bass ======================================================= Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins] Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics] Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending Innoventech, Inc. Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g. Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000 P.O. 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4;}{\s24\fi-720\li3600\ri720\nowidctlpar\tqr\tldot\tx9360\hyphpar0 = \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 toc = 5;}{\s25\fi-720\li720\nowidctlpar\tqr\tx9360\hyphpar0=20 \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 toc = 6;}{\s26\fi-720\li720\nowidctlpar\hyphpar0 \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 = toc 7;}{\s27\fi-720\li720\nowidctlpar\tqr\tx9360\hyphpar0 \f11\fs20 = \sbasedon0\snext0 toc = 8;}{\s28\fi-720\li720\nowidctlpar\tqr\tldot\tx9360\hyphpar0=20 \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 toc = 9;}{\s29\fi-1440\li1440\ri720\nowidctlpar\tqr\tldot\tx9360\hyphpar0 = \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 index = 1;}{\s30\fi-720\li1440\ri720\nowidctlpar\tqr\tldot\tx9360\hyphpar0 = \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 index 2;}{ \s31\nowidctlpar\tqr\tx9360\hyphpar0 \f11\fs20 \sbasedon0\snext0 toa = heading;}{\s32\nowidctlpar \f11 \sbasedon0\snext0 caption;}{\*\cs33 = \additive _Equation Caption;}}{\info{\author R. W. Bass}{\operator R. W. = Bass}{\creatim\yr1997\mo7\dy17\hr16\min42} {\revtim\yr1997\mo7\dy17\hr17\min3}{\printim\yr1997\mo7\dy17\hr17\min1}{\= version3}{\edmins5}{\nofpages1}{\nofwords418}{\nofchars2386}{\*\company = Innoventech, Inc.}{\vern57443}}\margl1440\margr1440=20 \widowctrl\ftnbj\aenddoc\hyphhotz950\aftnnar\notabind\wraptrsp\nocolbal\s= prslnsp\hyphcaps0 \fet0{\*\ftnsep \pard\plain \nowidctlpar \f11\fs20 = {\fs24 \chftnsep } \par }{\*\aftnsep \pard\plain \sl-20\slmult0\nowidctlpar \f11\fs20 = {\fs24=20 \par }}{\*\aftnsepc \pard\plain \nowidctlpar \f11\fs20 {\fs24 } \par }{\*\aftncn \pard\plain \nowidctlpar \f11\fs20 {\fs24 } \par }\sectd \pgnrestart\linex0\headery1440\footery1440 = {\*\pnseclvl1\pnucrm\pnstart1 {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl2\pnucltr\pnstart1 = {\pntxta .}}{\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnstart1 {\pntxta = ..}}{\*\pnseclvl4\pnlcltr\pnstart1 {\pntxta = ..}}{\*\pnseclvl5\pndec\pnstart1=20 {\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcltr\pnstart1 {\pntxtb = (}{\pntxta )}}{\*\pnseclvl7\pnlcrm\pnstart1 {\pntxta = )}}{\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1 {\pntxta = )}}{\*\pnseclvl9\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta = )}}\pard\plain=20 \nowidctlpar\hyphpar0 \f11\fs20 {\b\i\f4\fs18 THEORY}{\f4 \tab = }{\b\f4 THEORIST }{\f4 Bass Bush Chubbs Kim Parmenter = Rabinowitz Schwinger Turner}{\field{\*\fldinst {\f4 PRIVATE }{\f4 = {\*\datafield=20 0c0070686f656e69780001000000000000000000}}}{\fldrslt }}{\f4=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 1. }{\b\f4 ZPF/LV}{\f4 \tab \tab \tab }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4=20 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 =20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\f4\fs18 Zero-Point = Fluctuations \par & Lattice Vibrations \par }{\f4\fs12=20 \par }{\f4 2. }{\b\f4 Schwinger Ratio }{\b\f24 F}{\f4=20 \par }{\f4\fs18 Predicted Significance = = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18=20 \par Provided }{\f24\fs18 7}{\f4\fs18 for }{\f24\fs18 F}{\f4\fs18 =3D = L/}{\f24\fs18 7}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18=20 \par First-Principles Prediction }{\f34\fs18 = \'8e}{\f4\fs18=20 \par }{\f4\fs12=20 \par }{\f4 3. }{\b\f4 Phonons}{\f4=20 \par }{\f4\fs18 Fusion Heat Mediation = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{ \f4\fs18=20 \par Inverse M}{\f42\fs18 `}{\f4\fs18 ssbauer Effect \par Ion Excitation & De-Exc}{\f33\fs18 =3D}{\f4\fs18 n = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{ \f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4=20 \par }{\f4\fs12 =20 \par }{\f4 4. }{\b\f4 QRT Ion Excitation}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs12 = =20 \par }{\f4\fs18 Resonant Collision \par Criterion: }{\f24\fs18 F}{\f4\fs18 /}{\f24\fs18 B}{\f4\fs18 = =3D ODD}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }{\f4 5.}{\b\f4 Globally Valid }{\b\i\f4 V}{\b\f4 (}{\b\i\f4 = r}{\b\f4 )}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 = \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{ \f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs12 =20 \par }{\f4\fs18 OK Near Collision}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }{\f4 6. }{\b\f4 Velocity Distribution}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs12=20 \par }{\f4\fs18 Fusion Rate Enhancement=20 \par Resonance Line-Broadening }{\f34\fs18 = \'8e}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }{\f4 7. }{\b\f4 Periodic }{\b\i\f4 V}{\b\f4 (}{\b\i\f4 r}{\b\f4 = )}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 = \'8e}{\f4\fs18=20 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 In = Solid-State Lattice}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }{\f4 8.}{\b\f4 Floquet-Bloch Th}{\b\f33 =3D}{\b\f4 m.}{\f4\fs18 = }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 = \'8e}{\f4\fs18 }{\f34\fs18 \'8e}{\f4=20 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4\fs12=20 \par }{\f4\fs18 (}{\f36\fs18 L}{\f24\fs18 R}{\f4\fs18 )/}{\f24\fs18 = R}{\f4\fs18 }{\f4\fs18\ul Required}{\f4\fs18 Periodic}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 9. }{\b\f4 Effective }{\b\f24 )}{\b\f4 -Mass}{\f4\fs12 \tab \tab }{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e} {\f4\fs12=20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\f4\fs18 From Periodicity of = }{\i\f4\fs18 V}{\f4\fs18 (}{\i\f4\fs18 r}{\f4\fs18 )}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 10.}{\b\f4 Electron Screening}{\f4\fs12 \tab \tab }{\f4 }{\f34 = \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 = \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4=20 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 = \'8e}{\f4\fs12 =20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\f4\fs18 Fusion Rate = Enhancement}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }{\f4 11. }{\b\f4 Madelung Forces}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 = \'8e}{\f4\fs12 =20 \par }{\f4\fs18 Fusion Rate Enhancement}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 12. }{\b\f4 Three-Dimensional\tab \tab = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\b\f4=20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\b\f4 M}{\b\f42 `}{\b\f4 = ssbauer-Analysis OK}{\f4\fs12=20 \par }{\f4\fs18 Conduction Electrons in \par Host Lattice ( }{\f38\fs18 |}{\f4\fs18 }{\f24\fs18 7}{\f4\fs18 = )}{\f4\fs12 \tab \tab }{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 13.}{\b\f4 Duane}{\b\f33 =3D}{\b\f4 s Rule}{\f4\fs12 \tab \tab }{\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 = \'8e}{\f4\fs12=20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\f4\fs18 for Inelastic = Collisions & \par Resonant Transmission}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 14. }{\b\f4 Resonant Transparency\tab }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 = \'8e}{\f4=20 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\b\f4=20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\b\f4 Energy Levels}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 15. }{\b\f4 Nuclear Well Present}{\b\f4\fs12 \tab }{\f34 = \'8e}{\b\f4\fs12=20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\f4\fs12=20 \par }{\f4 16.}{\b\f4 Heat }{\b\i\f4 v}{\b\f4 Loading Pred}{\b\f33 = =3D}{\b\f4 n}{\b\f4\fs12 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4\fs12 =20 \par=20 \par }\pard = \fi-2880\li2880\nowidctlpar\tx-720\tx0\tx720\tx1440\tx2160\hyphpar0 {\f4 = 17.}{\b\f4 Heat }{\b\i\f4 v }{\b\f4 Current Pred}{\b\f33 =3D}{\b\f4 = n}{\f4\fs12 \tab }{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4 }{\f34 \'8e}{\f4\fs12=20 \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\tx-720\hyphpar0 {\f4\fs18 Bush TRM Fine = Structure}{\f4\fs12=20 \par=20 \par }{\f4 18. }{\b\f4 QRT}{\f4 (Lattice Suitability for}{\b\f4 = }{\f34 \'8e}{\b\f4=20 \par }{\f4 Deuterons }{\i\f4 v }{\f4 Protons Pred}{\f33 =3D}{\f4 n) \par }} ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD056.7E475460-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 10 23:16:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA11932; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:50:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:50:15 -0700 Message-ID: <343F0535.2CDA5CA3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:18:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yV2_i2.0.Ew2.5MmFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have just finished the first installment on the PMOD theory of operation. Nothing really new, just a new way of using 2 existing ferromagnetic effects. You must understand it before you attempt to verify / duplicate. Good Reading / thinking. Hope you got your Vortex connection working Chris. But maybe now you know it all. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 00:04:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA09927; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343F16B1.10B2 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:03:29 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, storms@ix.netcom.com, yekim physics.purdue.edu Subject: [Fwd: Re: Selection Rule Revealed] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"aSpSV1.0.zQ2.KEoFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news-peer-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.uunet.ca!xenitec!z orch!fusion From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Subject: Re: Selection Rule Revealed Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway Message-ID: <199710081454.KAA25795 pilot04.cl.msu.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:58:26 GMT I don't know what John Logajan is hinting at when he suggests that coherent light and lasers has something to do with "massive nuclear transmutations," but I am quit confident tht John does not know of any connection either. He is just blowing the usual kind of smoke that rises from these sorts of discussions. So is there some form of selection rule that constrains the outcome of the Miley reaction process much like the laser emission process is constrained? Speak up, John. What is the nature of the magic you wish to invoke? I remind you that Miley has clearly taken "the magic process" out of the confines of a well-ordered crystal lattice into some sort of chaotic soup in which 40% of the original lattice (or so he claims) is eaten up by the reaction. Also thin films plated on plastic beads are not generally the ideal setting in which to find long-range ordering of the lattice. Heck, all the Miley data on the composition of those films tells us the at the end the film is just an assortment of gunk. In fact it is hard to understand how the reaction rate could not be strongly influenced by the consumption of the nickel that is claimed to be the essential initial ingredient. Yet I have never heard a hint that the release of the so-called excess heat shows any significant variation throughout the course of the reaction process. In any ordinary reaction process the rate must somehow track the availability of fuel, and we clearly cannot be dealing with any ordinary process in this case so what can we predict about the reaction rate? Well, whenever I ask for specifics about the process people like you come up with these absurdities such as a 37-body reaction. In case you are to slow to figure it out, John, the more different ingredients that become involved the more sensitive the process must become to initial concentrations. So the notion that there is some sort of coherence involved that restricts the outcome of this magic reaction process is just stacking the manure higher, John. If you consider the actual experimental observations and forget the mumblings from all the crack-pot theorists what does these data tell us about the process? The setting is highly randomized with a wide assortment of initial participants playing an essential role to account for the claimed outcome. The outcome is highly randomized with a wide variety of product nuclei showing up in the final state. Energy balance can be maintained only if there are massive lumps of nuclear matter capable of exchanging energy up to the final breakup into specific products in well-determined final states. What I demand of you is some sort of workable explanation for these facts. I have supplied one. The only logical explanation for the lack of any excited or unstable nuclei in the final mix is that those are what goes into the process in the first place. All the elaborate analyses that George Miley has invoked simply go to confirm that the Paterson cell does not induce a nuclear reaction of any form. Miley has conclusively disproven the basic premise that underlies what must be one of the worst outbreaks of pathological science in recent times. As if Miley's claims aren't bad enough this same crowd is now embracing those of the Cincinnati Group -- the conversion of wine into water, or whatever. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 00:33:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA11629; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710110729.AAA04663 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: PMOD Update Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:38:05 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ROZLe3.0.dr2.MhoFq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, Thanks for the detailed info about the PMOD and your other devices. It does clarify the process a great deal. Personally, I am of the opinion that the TEP circuits and the PMOD do not have the same operating principle. This doesn't reflect upon the workability of either one: if there is an "anomalous energy" about, it makes sense that there would be several ways to tap into it. Fred > I have just finished the first installment on the PMOD theory of > operation. Nothing really new, just a new way of using 2 existing > ferromagnetic effects. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 01:17:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA28347; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:02:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:02:43 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971011040048_1276773022 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com cc: newman-l emachine.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au, fepps mail1.halcyon.com Subject: Re : Re: PMOD Update Resent-Message-ID: <"AmmBz.0.ow6.XApFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 11/10/1997 09:49:29 , Fred Epps wrote : << Hi Greg, Thanks for the detailed info about the PMOD and your other devices. It does clarify the process a great deal. Personally, I am of the opinion that the TEP circuits and the PMOD do not have the same operating principle. This doesn't reflect upon the workability of either one: if there is an "anomalous energy" about, it makes sense that there would be several ways to tap into it. Fred >> Hi Greg, Thanks Greg for your interesting informations about your PMOD device. I agree with Fred, our TEP Project does not have the same principle, it seems used the main basic components, but the main TEP concept for tapping ZPF Energy is not based on your PMOD Principle.... There is many different means to fly with an heavy than air...... But our goal is the same.... :-) Good luck in your Quest of Overunity, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 01:58:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA01127; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:53:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:53:57 -0700 Message-ID: <343F3E51.686BDFCC microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:22:33 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: More PMOD info Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9gdYZ1.0.yG.ZwpFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, More PMOD info has been posted. There is a suggested test circuit and some waveforms. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 02:25:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA04174; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:05:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:05:14 -0700 Message-ID: <343F40F8.820B00B2 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:33:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD & Tep References: <971011040048_1276773022 emout18.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IBOjD1.0.711.95qFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Thanks Greg for your interesting informations about your PMOD device. > I agree with Fred, our TEP Project does not have the same principle, it seems > used the main basic components, but the main TEP concept for tapping ZPF > Energy is not based on your PMOD Principle.... > > There is many different means to fly with an heavy than air...... > But our goal is the same.... :-) > > Jean-Louis Naudin HI Jean-Louis, Sorry to disagree, but my analysis of the coil current wave forms on the Tep 6.2 duty cycle tests show your bifilar coil is very inductive. The current wave form clearly shows a current ramp complete with initial H/B phase shift and Barkhausen noise bumps as the current ramps up. If the coil were really bifilar there would be NO current ramp and the voltage across the resistor would be very much higher. The output wave form also shows Barkhausen bumps. My conclusion is that the coil is inductive and the energy is coming from the ferrite. If you could send me some more current waveforms I can do a better analysis of what is happening in your TEP system. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 02:48:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA05956; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:29:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:29:49 -0700 Message-ID: <343F465A.66076581 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 18:56:50 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Tep Coil Current Ramp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9247F5F7DA08E01DA3C1B1D6" Resent-Message-ID: <"rXWBp2.0.xS1.BSqFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9247F5F7DA08E01DA3C1B1D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI Jean-Louis, I have attached the current ramp in question. If the coil were non-inductive the voltage across the current sample resistor should be approx 2 v and show NO current ramp of Barkhausen noise. The current reaches a peak of 0.75 amps. It should be more like 2 amps. The coil is clearly inductive. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson --------------9247F5F7DA08E01DA3C1B1D6 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="tep1.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tep1.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRof Hh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwh MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAAR CADgAS8DASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHAAAAgMBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAABAUCBgcDAAEI/8QAWxAAAQMC AwQFBgcLCQMJCQAAAgMEEgAFAQYiExQyQhEVUmJyByEjJJKyFjEzNIKiwiU1QUNRU1RzdNLw RGFjZHGDk5TiF5GjJjaBhKGksbPRCCdFVVZ1lbTy/8QAFAEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP/E ABQRAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/APz/AES7CDog8P8A4Vwo96goV0NJ MZGXxezQAVLUPDXRNAzAjjoDUVTForu6TggIkiONAfZB+7LGP6QGv6deuJQubgJ65nyV2tKB tb5bpjGSyR/QnU126zt87NuE9lMz7gToA9dEgrsuxCuIsltx3vRsj0Ac+eiBZOwdt0oQNxAw AD450DnLx6Lt/wDbzD64UpM9Z6OfjppYwNujeQMIGDIwP2wpcbRVJvvZJBspmE6AcIa9H+uv 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RR/q5VN8lanDtZULgYzMiju9Ajr1M9yt/wCF8ePhSqAt2Qq/LK+xQcwAsLUp3lg90qin5ma5 +AeKiTNLZbulrCdeeJbsxjPUR8NB/9k= --------------9247F5F7DA08E01DA3C1B1D6-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 05:06:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA21817; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:52:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 04:52:05 -0700 Message-Id: <343F6E51.61A0EB97 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:17:21 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tep Coil Current Ramp References: <343F465A.66076581 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tjd-c2.0.oK5.aXsFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > HI Jean-Louis, > > I have attached the current ramp in question. > > If the coil were non-inductive the voltage across the current sample > resistor should be approx 2 v and show NO current ramp of Barkhausen > noise. > > The current reaches a peak of 0.75 amps. It should be more like 2 > amps. > > The coil is clearly inductive. > -- > Hi Greg, Jean-Louis, My points: 1) circuit have 200nS diode which slow down current rising. If the inductive criteria is a important I suggest these observations to understand the role of the coil on the rise time of the current: a) Coil removed and circuit closed by directly connecting D4 cathode to MOSFET. How rise the current? This clearly show the delaying and inductive components on rest of the circuit. b) D4 removed. see the difference on the current ramp. 2) As the Coil is large, a single turn is enough to create inductance causing delays on sub microsecond pulses. 3) How are short the wiring, including the leads of coils, and power supply cable. I suggest they should not more long than 5cm. 4) Driving coils (including bifilars) which suitable to work on audio frequency, at RF cause pelicular results. Coils are not longer an inductance. They behave as transmission lines, strange resonant circuits, antennas, etc. They may show extreme pelicular results. I believe that theoretical analysis of such a operating mode is very difficult, and interpreting moderate experimental results could be in imaginative character. 5) I believe that extracting extra power(OU) from coil based circuit is very fragile and based on secondary or more high order interactions and phenomena. So probably we only prepare conditions to extract the power(i.e. proper coil geometry, proper operating mode). These modes may not show anomalous behavior until the extra power is popup on the circuit. Even the strangeness of bifilar coil characteristics may have no relation with the OU phenomena. The gap of our knowledge on free energy or ZPE is considerable. This is like we even don't known how the gas (oil) is burning and try to theorize a jet engine. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 06:04:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA29855; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:44:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:44:09 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 08:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971011084221_1925205454 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction? Resent-Message-ID: <"1kLGh3.0.JI7.OItFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, In your post of Oct. 9, you paraphrased Mills as follows: - first he says transitions to hydrino states don't radiate. - then he proposes an experiment to look for EUV radiation from said transitions. The first assertion is wrong. Mills has said over and over again that although the hydrino states themselves don't radiate (except by decay on a cosmological time scale), the transitions from one state to another do radiate. Here's part of your post of Oct. 7: ------------------------- Here's a quote from Part 1 of Mills' (thanks) Detail on Technology: "similarly the n=1 state of hydrogen and the n=1/integer states of hydrogen are nonradiative, but a transition between two nonradiative states is possible via a resonant collision, say n=1 to n=1/2. In these cases, during the collision the electron couples to another electron transition or electron transfer reaction which can abosrv the exact amount of energy that must be removed from the hydrogen atom, a resonant energy sink." ------------------------------ I don't understand how one could paraphrase this passage (or any other passage) as a statement by Mills that the transitions don't radiate. It's the hydrino states themselves that don't radiate. The transitions are another matter. Mills has also said over and over again that the signatures of the early transitions lie in the EUV, so it's reasonable of him to propose experiments to look for them. I don't see any contradiction here, and I'm dismayed that you still do. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 06:48:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA01806; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:21:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:21:25 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971011091938_-1898118245 emout18.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au, fepps@mail1.halcyon.com Subject: Re : PMOD & Tep MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.14535.emout18.mail.aol.com.876575977" Resent-Message-ID: <"F4O6a3.0.1S.JrtFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --PART.BOUNDARY.0.14535.emout18.mail.aol.com.876575977 Content-ID: <0_14535_876575978 emout18.mail.aol.com.2050> Content-type: text/plain On 11/10/1997 11:11:06 , you wrote : << HI Jean-Louis, My conclusion is that the coil is inductive and the energy is coming from the ferrite. >> Hi Greg, I am glad to see that you are interested about our TEP project, you are welcome :-) In the case of the TEP V6.20, I am SURE that the energy is not coming from the ferrite because, I have used an AIR CORE in this experiment......You will find the diagram of this test in the attached document. Bifilar coil specs : L1=L2 bifilar interweaved, L= 0.59mH, N=92 turns of #24 AWG (5/10) R(L1=L2) = 1.8 ohms, Diam 90mm, L=115mm you will find pictures and more specs in my web site, I shall tried to test your PMOD soon, could you sent to me, a simple scheme of your self-powered PMOD.... As soon as I have your PMOD self-running scheme, I shall built it and I shall sent to you my feed back..... Concerning my self-powered TEP devices, you will find all TEP's diagrams and schemes in my web site : http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/scalwidx.htm and also in Stefan Hartmann site : www.overunity.de/tep/ TODAY, the discussions about real source of energy ( ferrite or ZPF ) is not so important, we need to FOCUS on, how to IMPROVE our PMOD/TEP devices for a COP>>>1 and having a simple scheme ( but detailled and cheap ) of a self-powered device which could be reproducible by anyone in the World...... Nice to share our ideas again, this remind me our last fascinating SMOT story..... Sincerely, ( This mail has been sent at 13h10 GMT on 11 october 97 ) Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ --PART.BOUNDARY.0.14535.emout18.mail.aol.com.876575977 Content-ID: <0_14535_876575978 emout18.mail.aol.com.2051> Content-type: image/gif; name="TEP620.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODdhBANyAeMAAAAAABERESIiIjMzM0RERFVVVWZmZnd3d4iIiJmZmaqqqru7u8zMzN3d 3e7u7v///ywAAAAABANyAUAE/vDJSau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oqq5s675wLM90bd8SgO987/9A mS5ILBqPyKTSNdQAnpYnNDd9VKUbrFPKrVa0VG8HbNVyv1OwurkemsWfNqZL3rqv8GWqqRcR MH8WgRUEhYKFhhKDiIomg0SMG5F6j32WNHxzcGR1Zxx1ZXd0b6J2n3kToGGZnaqeqaoesVFi pHRomZd7uiGIk4+BvobChL4TwY0Pi3/Ikke/xxSTS5W81iu519rb3N0U2d7JF9VA5NFGwunq lubh7nPwJ26fVl+7KuAs+bI59d/3Yy6w6vcvlRMS+24k5NZMmaJgiRyek/gQGLOJyiJm1Cjo HSWP/iAPCmTzLxufeVloEaSy8gqslgUDZjhZ8CRKfyBo4ny5Mw1PnD5XAjVItGdRkiyH/kS6 86hToTplhpza7oiOhUiqTnWHdavXr2DphbXR9RIqGGfHlh2bcty5RRTjUrwoDi7bu3iF5JVG 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1395272689-876404323=:18758" Content-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"bIgZj1.0.WU3.WbyFq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-1395272689-876404323=:18758 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Anyone interested in large VandeGraaff spheres? S. Sampere is gathering a group on TEACHING APPARATUS FOR PHYSICS TAP list to make an order. Contact Sam directly, or join TAP (see http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/scilists.html) .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:38:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Sam Sampere Reply-To: tap-l listserv.appstate.edu To: tap-l listserv.appstate.edu Subject: Re: Van de Graaf ball Hey all, Attached is my list of people who WANT ans possibly want spheres. I've done some extra checking. Lexan tube readily come in 8" diameter tubes, 10" tubes are about 3x more expensive. That makes the tube the most expensive part of th VdG if you with the 10" tube. Are you guys happy with an 8" opening? You have to realize that this will decrease pulley diameter and length (is longer better anyway?). This will also decrease the length of the column. As the two sides of the belt come closer together (because of pulley diameter), the two sides of the belt are attracted more. The longer the tube, the less force needed for the belt to rub on itself. Next item: prices For a 1 m ball: Tooling: $2253 (split this evenly amongst everyone who wants a ball, regardless of quantity) Top half: $137.28 Bottom half: $163.68 For 10 people wanting 1 ball each: Price/ball = $525.30 Each additional ball = $300.96 i.e. if you want two balls, pay $525.30 + $300.96. If we choose instead a 36" ball, the price decreases to... Tooling: $1850 Top half: $114.40 Bottem half: $136.40 For 10 people wanting 1 ball each: Price/ball = $435.80 Each addition ball = $114.40 + 136.40 = $250.80 I want three balls. I want to make two VdG's of opposite polarity. That will put on a nice show in our 300 person auditorium. Also helps to explain how these things work. The third ball is a spare. Keep in mind that once the tooling is made, we never have to pay for that again! If you decide that you want another ball 6 months from now, pay only the cost for one ball! One 1m ball costs $342, you don't get a quantity discount. So, the more up front orders, the cheaper these get, the more people that want one, the cheaper the tooling cost is for everyone. You could decide that you don't want in at this time and get a ball 6 months from now, and not pay the tooling costs. This saves you money, but everybody else payed that bill for you in advance. Please keep that in mind. Next order of business: the rest of the machine! Pulleys: I'm working on that. I've got data sheets coming in from Cadillac Plastics on G10, phenolic, telron, and some other stuff. I'm looking at episilon, water adsorption, strength, and conductivity. What am I leaving off? Anybody want to work on bearings, mounting these pulleys, motors, belts, etc? I've started belts, but can use the help. Let's get this thing built!! Thanks in advance, Sam --0-1395272689-876404323=:18758-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 16:22:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA15974; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:16:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34400896.64A5782D microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:45:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i2_xy2.0.Kv3.WZ0Gq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI Jean-Louis and others, Good work Jean-Louis, you are fast. I wish I had your speed and equipment. Go to 200Ns / div. Use a 0.1 ohm resistor (a piece of calibrated wire will do). The current sensing resistor should be much less than the coil DC resistance. Let you scopes amplifiers do some work. Its ONLY the stuff in the ON time of the current drive that is of interest at present. You need to measure the time of the initial current pulse to determine the "Critical Ferrite / Domain response time). Then trim the drive pulse width to slightly less than the Critical Response time and play with the cycle time. I will have another circuit, showing how to trap the time delayed back Emf as DC, up in a few hours. Please Jean-Louis, read the PMOD article. This effect is real. My comments on the Tep current ramp were only aimed to add information to your research. If there is a current ramp, something is acting like there is a large inductance in the circuit and to fully understand what is happening in the Tep, you must factor in the current ramp and the observed Barkhausen noise that is clearly shown both in the current pulse and the output pulse. The Barkhausen noise bumps are normally a clear sign that a ferrite is in the magnetic circuit. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 16:34:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA19717; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:26:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:26:22 -0700 Message-ID: <34400AD0.93A646E3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:55:04 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Tests Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ylDX9.0.yp4.Si0Gq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI again, In the next series of photos, use delayed trace 100Ns / div and show the leading edge of the Fet drive pulse along with the current waveforms. As you show the current waveform across a 1 ohm resistor, I don't understand where all the between cycle waveforms are coming from. They look like what you would get across the coil or maybe your fet is damaged and has a low leakage path through it. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 16:37:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA18134; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343FFF70.1166 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:36:32 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Selection Rule Revealed] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"qSRDU1.0.GR4.Cn0Gq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter0!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!europa.clark.net!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!209.90.0.8!alph a.sky.net!bsulliva From: bsulliva sky.net (Bob Sullivan) Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: Selection Rule Revealed Date: Sat, 11 Oct 97 19:26:10 GMT Organization: SkyNET Corporation Distribution: World Message-ID: <61ojju$72j$3 alpha.sky.net> References: <343A2740.7A519478 ozemail.com.au> <61gpjq$hq2$1@news.fsu.edu> <343C01BB.554191B6@ozemail.com.au> <61jid2$a6c$1@news.fsu.edu> <343D647C.F387C2@ozemail.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip78.kc.sky.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 In article <343D647C.F387C2 ozemail.com.au>, Geoffrey C Marshall wrote: ->Jim Carr wrote: ->> ->> Geoffrey C Marshall writes: ->> > ->> >OK. Given that that *is* the case, why is there ->> >an argument about cold fusion ? ->> ->> There is no argument about some kinds of cold fusion. There are ->> even good arguments why other kinds might be possible (Jones and ->> Siclen published one such argument). There are even quasi-plausible ->> theories about how some processes can take place in solid state ->> environments but not in isolation. ->> ->> The question at present remains whether the experimental claims ->> are reproducible and significant. -> ->Any chance of elaborating on that paragrapgh ? -> ->Geoff... -> -> The Electric Power Research Institute invested millions of dollars and several years in serious cold fusion research before abandoning the project. For a time, the cf proponents used the EPRI interest to legitimize their claims. When EPRI finally published its negative conclusions some in the cf community went ballastic in their criticisms of the report conclusions. Here's a paragraph, written by Dr. Thomas R. Schneider of EPRI, from the introduction to the report: QUOTE Where do these efforts stand today? In my personal opinion, the overall finding is negative; that is, no verifiable evidence exists for nuclear effects consistent with the claimed 'excess heat' measurements. Indeed the lack of any significant measurements of nuclear products suggests that the proponents' interpretation of the anomalous heat as real, yet unexplainable by any chemical, electrical, or mechanical source and hence by implication a nuclear phenomenon seems to me to be, at best, an extremely naive interpretation and reflects a very poor understanding of modern scientific method. The alternative explanation, that the anomalous heat measurements are not from nuclear reactions but are the result of unidentified error or artifact, appears to me to be the only viable explanation of the 'excess heat.' END QUOTE Newsgroups EPRI statements on cold fusion and deuterated metals. The Bottom Line: There's nothing to explain. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 20:23:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA13956; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3440439E.33DC skypoint.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:27:26 -0500 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Van de Graaf ball (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5GcJ62.0.zP3.z64Gq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > Anyone interested in large VandeGraaff spheres? > For a 1 m ball: > Tooling: $2253 (split this evenly amongst everyone who wants a ball, > regardless of quantity) > > Top half: $137.28 > Bottom half: $163.68 Egads! In my mind this is way over-engineering of a simple device. I suggest instead that those wanting a large sphere for VandeGraaff work use something like a styrofoam core coated with either glued on aluminum foil, or spray painted with a conductive coating. There is absolutely no electrical reason, and very little mechanical reason to use anything more substantial. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 20:27:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA13884; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34404148.A731ADB0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:47:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: TEP current waveforms Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9B4E3C0C60B68C59E8F6AAEF" Resent-Message-ID: <"G9TLd.0.oO3.V64Gq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9B4E3C0C60B68C59E8F6AAEF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jean-Louis and all. I have attached a revised TEP 6.2 current waveform with my comments. IMO is clearly shows a classic inductive current ramp. I am not saying that the TEP is not doing strange things at all, its just that you must factor in all the data and the current waveform shows a significant inductive current ramp. Over to the TEP team to figure out why. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson --------------9B4E3C0C60B68C59E8F6AAEF Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="tep2.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="tep2.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDAAgGBgcGBQgHBwcJCQgKDBQNDAsLDBkSEw8UHRof Hh0aHBwgJC4nICIsIxwcKDcpLDAxNDQ0Hyc5PTgyPC4zNDL/2wBDAQkJCQwLDBgNDRgyIRwh MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjL/wAAR CADSAZADASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAHAAAAgIDAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAABQYDBAACBwEI/8QAURAAAgEC BAMEBgUIBwcBBwUAAQIDBBEABRIhBjFBEyJRYQcUMnGB0RUjkaGxM0JSYnLB4fAWNVOCkrLS JENjc6LC8SUIFzQ2RHSTVIOUs+L/xAAaAQEAAwEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgMEAQUG/8QAMREA AgIBAwMDAgQGAwEAAAAAAAECAwQREiETMUFRUpEFYRQigaEjMkJxsdE0U8Hw/9oADAMBAAIR AxEAPwDgoxZjS9BM3mLfdit1vi5Hf6Kl8NW/3YAp4wfyMYduuMW+3v5YAO8JMBxDR3t+WjAF 7X7wx0GeKnbKa6ExTUYlaPUZ+7qFxsNz4eGOT088tLMksLMkiG4ZDYjzwQqc6zOu0tUVksoB 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(Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD current waveforms Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xYpTB.0.p66.QB4Gq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jean-Louis and all, I have attached the excellent current photo of Jean-Louis with some comments. Its the first 10-50Ns thats of interest here. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 20:32:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA14835; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34404297.57D9EDCC microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:53:03 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD current waveforms Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9708DE1FE7D6BC02BF644FFF" Resent-Message-ID: <"-JpRf.0.id3.6C4Gq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9708DE1FE7D6BC02BF644FFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jean-Louis and all, I have attached the excellent current photo of Jean-Louis with some comments. 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Subject:      PIT Theory vs LINT Theory [ & LENT _fact_!]
From:         "Robert Bass" <rbrtbass pahrump.com>
Date:         1997/06/29
Message-Id:   <01bc8423$6915f620$6b92e2cd rbrtbass.pahrump.com>
Newsgroups:   sci.physics.fusion
[More Headers]


        PIT Theory versus LINT Theory [and LENT _fact_!]
                                       by
                            Robert W. Bass
                     <rbrtbass@pahrump.com>
Barry,
	Thanks for your interest in the PIT theory; I only contributed
one part to that theory, and as soon as I can find my misplaced paper
showing by the Rabinowitz theory of Superconductivity/Superfluidity
that an  electron cluster of the density & particle-count discovered
by Ken Shoulders would be both a superfluid and a superconductor
I will gladly mail you a copy.  If you see John Dawson, show him the
stuff about PIT because it to me is reminscent of his UCLA ideas of
making a particle-accelerator based upon "surfing" plasma waves.
	Everything else on the PIT theory is in one of the first 5 issues
of Hal Fox's "Journal of New Energy."  I loaned 4 of my 5 issues to
Dr. Bennet Miller at the OER of the DOE.  If I cannot persuade Hal
Fox to send him the fifth issue (I suspect he resents the affluent DOE
seeming "too cheap" [or too ideologically hostile] to subscribe to his
non-"mainstream-party-line" journal), I will lend him that one also.
	I must make my own position clear.  I believe that Ken
Shoulders has made a world-class discovery in his patented electron
clusters.  Also, IF it is true that Ken has incontrovertible empirical
evidence that electron clusters can carry protons piggy-back, THEN
and only then will I believe the "Fox-Jin-Bass" PIT theory that
cheap, table-top accelerators can be made and will turn the world
of high-energy physics upside down.  Bob Eagleton (who is far more
conversant with the Cincinnati Miracle than I am) believes that the
electron clusters play a key role, but not precisely as envisaged by
the PIT theory.
	The advantage of the PIT theory is that believers in conventional
hot-fusion physics can see how hot-fusion type reactions could be
induced at low energies.HOWEVER, the branching ratios of d+d => He_4,
etc. in deuterated palladium lattices are NOT the same as in gaseous
plasmas and I for one doubt that this new field is just a novel way of
doing
what the hot-fusioneers want to do.
	The disadvantage of the PIT theory is that it does _not_ explain
_nearly_ as many observed _facts_ as does the Turner-Bush-Bass 
"PERIODIC Lattice-Induced Resonant Transparency of Coulomb Barrier"
theory, as in my unpublished papers which you have. But PLIRT
or PLIRTCB is not a pronouceable acronym!
	Moreover, I am planning to send you a rebuttal to your
heuristic proof that the tunneling predicted by the PLIRT heory
would take eons of time.  I thank you _very_, very much for taking
the trouble to send me your argument.  However, you have in my
opinion made one big mistaken assumption.  The wave build-up by
resonant repetition does NOT have to get up to the MeV level
which you plugged into your equations.  It only has to get up
to the 100 eV level cited in my "5 Frozen Needles Protocol"!!!
	I suspect that if you redo your own calculations you will
agree with me.  If not, then speak up!
Moreover, it is only by SUMMING _all_ of the electostatic forces
of _all_ of the positive & negative charged particles in the lattice,
as I have done in my PERIODIC potential V(r) = V(r + L) of the
Coulomb/Madelung/Fermi-Thomas/Mott type that one can get
a sufficiently good microphysical dynamics that one can
_PREDICT_ the Schwinger Ratio from _FIRST PRINCIPLES_
and get a numerical answer that is within 0.3 percent of
measured reality!  But the great brains running ICCF4 saw fit
to OMIT my Poster Paper from those even Abstracted in
"Fusion Technology."
	Many of the CF theorists are constantly hedging and
fudging and constantly declining to stick their necks into a
guillotine and make _clear-cut_ experimental _PREDICTIONS_
that can be refuted readily (if false); however, I have so far in the
theory which I have been developing since 1989 stuck my neck
into a guillotine at least a dozen [documentable] times BEFORE
the fact (rather than catiously hailing my theory via hand-waving
retrodictions AFTER the fact, as does Preparata) and by my own
count [demur if you wish!] my neck is still intact!
	All of my friends have used different acronyms: the Chubbs
used the first one I liked: LINC (Lattice Induced Nuclear Chemistry),
& I like the Bush-Eagleton LANT (Lattice Assisted Nucleon Transfer).
To distinguish my own clear-cut "go/no-go" _CRITERION_ for
particle/host-lattice pairs [that the period length of the host lattice,
when divided by the _empirical_ rms amplitude of the Zero Point
Fluctuations (ZPFs) of bound particles in said lattice, namely
the "Schwinger Ratio"  --  which he correctly intuited was ALL
IMPORTANT in this matter, as I have proved _rigorously_ in
showing that the n_th Resonant Transparency Energy Level is
a function of _nothing_ but the fundamental constants of physics
and the integer n and the Schwinger Ratio  --  should be 
divided by pi: if the result is near to an ODD integer, then
resonant transparency is possible and excited particles of
the same species can collide _inelastically_ with lattice-
bound particles of the same species, whereas if the the
result is near to an EVEN integer, the opposite is true],
I have called my patent-pending criterion Lattice Induced
Nuclear Transmutation (LINT).  The LINT theory is the only
theory in the marketplace of ideas which passes the
"Rabinowitz Acid Test", namely that it _predicts_ that
deuterons WILL work in a palladium lattice (but NOT
protons!) and conversely it predicts that protons will
work in a nickel lattice {but not deuterons].  In fact,
as I have documented, the LINT theory makes 7
correct predictions, _only_ the first two of which
[pertaining to palladium lattices] were known to me
when I submitted my Patent Application just before
ICCF2 in June, 1991.
	Actually, Barry, I agree with your once-proffered
suggestion that "Lattice-catalyzed Nuclear Fusion"
would be an easier subject-title for the Establishment
people to swallow without gagging.  But LCNF is not
pronounceable!
	What I am driving at is that I believe that the
powers that be (e.g. the selection committees at
ICCFk, k = 4, 5, 6) have not given my PLIRT/LINT theory
a fair hearing.  So I persist in believing that it has merit
(until I am shown otherwise) and I believe that the
SPARX idea of Ken Shoulders is _NOT_ (as some of
his enthusiastic admirers, such as Gary Vesperman,
have stated in print) necessarily the "_first_ plausible
theory to explain the F&P discovery."
	Unlike some "politicised" theorists, I believe
in giving EVERY theory a fair hearing.  That is why I
have posted some points in favor of the PIT theory.
But if asked to wager I would not bet that it will turn
out to be the "way to go" or the "final explanation."
	In my opinion, next to F&P themselves, the
senior scientist in this field is clearly John Bockris,
who by the published record is the first to have
synthesized tritium in a helium-producing F&P type
of electrochemical cell, the first to have found
"massive" amounts of helium_4 inside the cathode
of a cell that had been producing excess heat,
and the first to have produced
a metal-to-metal low-energy transmutation (see my
paper on Brightsen's Nucleon Cluster Model [NCM]
either in "Infinite Energy" magazine, or in "Journal of
New Energy," or download it from Clusteron Science Corp.'s
website  [ --  a plug for CSC, Inc. so I should, in the
interest of "full disclosure" note that I am now a
Director of CSC, as is Bockris.]
	Yesterday I got two letters from Bockris,
who is now using the acronym Low Energy
Nuclear Transformations (LENT).  Because of my
great respect for Bockris, and because this seems
to capture the essence of what is _anomalous_
about this field, I am going to start referring to this
entire field as the LENT field.
	If UCLA and UCSD refuse to subscribe to
"Infinite Energy" and Mitchell Swartz's "Cold Fusion
Times" and even the archival, peer-reviewed,
Chemical-Abstracts-abstracted, "Journal of New
Energy" (because of prejudice, ideological hostility,
or unwillingness to admit that the established
paradigm is directly in the path of a tsunami
of "paradigm-quake Magnitude 11"), then their
students are destined to be the "last to know
the truth" (unless it eventually filters in through
George Miley's great "Fusion Technology" journal
which I tend to forget because the nearby UNLV
library does _not_[!] subscribe to it).
	Of course, I am expecting that my own
(nit-picking) LINT theory will turn out to be the
underlying _fact_ of the LENT field, but that
remains to be discerned during the coming
years.
	Regards,
			Bob
Robert W. Bass, Registered Patent Agent 29,130  [ex-Prof Physics]
Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending
P.O.Box 1238, Pahrump, NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX (702) 751-0932/0739
Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213             e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: Barry Merriman <barry@julia.math.ucla.edu>
> To: Robert Bass <rbrtbass@pahrump.com>
> Subject: Re: CORRECTED "Plasma Injection Transmutation (PIT) ?"
> Date: Saturday, June 28, 1997 5:06 AM
> 
> Robert Bass wrote:
> > 
> >    PLASMA INJECTION TRANSMUTATION (PIT)
> >                                by
> > 
> >                     Robert W. Bass
> >                <rbrtbass@pahrump.com>
> 
> Your PIT model sounds interesting---I'd like to take
> a look at it. Could you please send me a copy?
> mail to:
> 
> Prof. Barry Merriman
> Math Department, MS6363
> UCLA
> Box 951555
> Los Angeles, Ca
> 90095-1555
>  
> Barry Merriman
> Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
> Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
> email: barry@math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
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--------------77F372AE20F2-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 11 23:17:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA10643; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:07:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:07:58 -0700 Message-ID: <34405C59.38CB earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:12:57 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Bass: QM & Mossbauer Effect Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------300845B26F9D" Resent-Message-ID: <"zXmbv1.0.Dc2.ya6Gq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------300845B26F9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=%3c4atmu1$ke5 ixnews3.ix.netcom.com%3e&server=db95q4&CONTEXT=876635848.1047330922&hitnum=28 --------------300845B26F9D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="getdoc.xp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="getdoc.xp" Content-Base: "http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recn um=%3c4atmu1$ke5 ixnews3.ix.netcom. com%3e&server=db95q4&CONTEXT=876635 848.1047330922&hitnum=28" Deja News - Article
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Subject:      Pauli, QM, CF, Moessbauer, Phonons, etc.
From:         rbrtbass ix.netcom.com(Robert W. Bass )
Date:         1995/12/16
Message-Id:   <4atmu1$ke5 ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups:   sci.physics.fusion
[More Headers]



         PAULI, QM, CF, Moessbauer, Phonons, etc.
  
        In an earlier posting (re-posted from  Feb.'s  ICCF5  gp.)  I 
stated that I felt driven against my will to accept SM and SEC rather 
than QM and  QED  because  if  one  assumes  a  universe  of  charged 
point-particles  then  one  can  _derive_   Planck's   constant   and 
Schroedinger's Equation in  the  framework  of  Stochastic  Mechanics 
(SM), as merely classical mechanics excited by a background of  zero- 
mean finite-intensity 'white noise' processes.
        But emotionally I would prefer the de  Broglie/Bohm  idea  of 
waves which  fill  all  space  and  can  change  instantaneously  and 
discontinuously.  (Thus I have  an  entire  shelf  of  books  on  the 
Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen   [EPR]   Paradox,   and   its   experimental 
resolution by Alain Aspect et  al,  using  Bell's  Inequality,  which 
purports to demonstrate that "reality is _NOT_ local!")
        In SM, Laplacian determinism is reinstated; the probabilistic 
aspect of Schroedinger's equation simply comes from the fact that the 
universal background field causes a jittering which  means  that  the 
position of a point particles is like that of a particle in  Brownian 
Motion.  So instead of Laplacian robots (doomed to our  fates  as  in 
Calvinistic Predestination), humans would be 'capricious robots', our 
fates  still  beyond  our  ability  to  affect  by  Free  Will,   but 
unpredictable merely because  of  the  stochastic  jiggling  and  the 
near-infinite initial-value problem composed of all particles in  the 
universe.  I find this unaesthetically unappetizing and  contrary  to 
my subjective experience of Free Will (my thoughts can determine  the 
actions of matter, rather than being  completely  determined  by  the 
cosmic initial conditions!).
        However, I have just thought of something which I believe can 
not be derived in either SM or SED  --  paging Hal Puthoff to correct 
me if I am wrong.
        If one starts with Schroedinger's equation as a postulate, as 
in conventional QM, then one has to _add_  as  a  strictly  _ad  hoc_ 
additional postulate (without rhyme or  reason,  and  absolutely  and 
utterly without foundation in any analog  from  classical  mechanics) 
that the wave function psi has certain symmetry properties.   If  the 
particles are  bosons  or  fermions,  psi  has  to  be  symmetric  or 
anti-symmetric when the coordinates of particles are interchanged  (I 
forget which).  If one makes this utterly ad hoc hypothesis, then one 
can _DERIVE_ the  Paul  Exclusion  Principle,  which  elucidates  the 
Periodic Table of Elements and (in  principle) reduces  chemistry  to 
physics.
        But how can the eighth electron being added to a  'shell'  of 
electrons around a nucleus 'know' that the 'shell' is full  (whatever 
that means) and that the ninth electron has to start filling up a new 
shell?  This is the _REAL_ mystery of QM; any way you cut it, reality 
has to be  NON-LOCAL  ("global")  and  the  particles  have  to  know 
instantaneously and discontinuously what is the given  configuration.  
(In Duane's Rule, which preceded QM and from which QM can be derived, 
one assumes that a particle exchanging momentum with a crystal can do 
so  only  in  integral  multiples  of  h/(2.L)   where   L   is   the 
lattice-length period; but if the particle cannot 'feel'  the  entire 
lattice instantaneously and globally [faster than the speed of light] 
how can the particle know what L is?)
        I once sat next at MDC in Long Beach to a dynamicist who  had 
received an M.S. under Pauli in Switzerland; he told  me  that  Pauli 
privately told his students "electrons _must_ have intelligence;  for 
how else can they know when they have filled up a shell?"
        Clearly, point particles which have charge and  mass  and  no 
other  properties  cannot  'know'  what  a  myriad  of  other  nearby 
particles are doing well enough to obey Pauli's Principle;  therefore 
QM is assuredly mysterious, mystical, possibly (as Einstein  thought) 
radically 'incomplete' or otherwise imperfect or provisional.
        While believing that avoidance of ad hominem arguments  is  a 
good idea, I cannot avoid noticing that the skeptics of CF are mostly 
experimentalists who in my humble opinion do not appreciate just  how 
truly counter-intuitive orthodox QM really is,  and  who  persist  in 
trying to make mental pictures of little billiard-ball models  as  an 
aid to understanding or as a heuristic aid to discovery.
        Thus it  seems  to  me  to  be  a  scientific  discussion  to 
challenge the 'visualizable  mental  model'  practitioners  who  also 
doubt CF to forget about CF and go back to ordinary  QM  and  explain 
the  Pauli  Exclusion  Principle  without  resort  to  mysticism   or 
admission of bafflement and that the sub-atomic world in conventional 
QM is just not possible to visualize!
        Feynman says that  anyone  who  does  not  exclaim  "how  can 
reality be like that?" just does not actually understand QM.  He says 
that _NOBODY_ understands how things can be like that!
        Although I am not fond of Logical Positivism (which seems  to 
have inspired the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM), I can defend  the 
idea that nuclei in a lattice can interact with the _entire_  lattice 
globally and instantaneously by quoting the orthodox  theory  of  the 
Moessbauer Effect.
        In QM of atoms and solids (as opposed to QED)  the  speed  of 
light is taken to be infinite; one cannot then introduce a  finite  c 
ad hoc (as attempted by  Steve  Jones)  and  expect  to  get  correct 
results.  All of ordinary atomic, molecular and  solid-state  physics 
is based on Coulomb forces, which are _instantaneous,  global_  (i.e. 
action-at-a-distance) forces.  The Hamiltonian for a lattice  of  any 
size is derived from the theory of  harmonic  oscillators,  with  the 
spring constants coming ultimately from the Coulomb forces, wherein c 
is taken to be infinite.
        To my knowledge, no one has improved this  situation;  Giulio 
Preparata claims to have done it, with his QFT theory of matter as  a 
quantized plasma, but in his model there is absolutely no  difference 
between a liquid and a solid!  At ICCF2 he openly  scoffed  at  Solid 
State Physics, and has since published papers purporting  to  'prove' 
that the orthodox theory of the Moessbauer Effect is all wet, because 
a crystal cannot be so stiff that it  jumps  instantaneously.   Maybe 
posterity will say that Preparata was on  the  right  track,  but  at 
present there are literally WALLS of books and journals based on  the 
standard theory that crystals are truly infinitely rigid (part of the 
time) and that  Preparata  is  giving  his  personal  intuition  more 
credence than thousands of well-measured experiments and  theoretical 
analyses.
        I have given Barry Merriman a two-page Xerox copy of a 4-page 
excerpt  from  David  Park's  "Classical  Dynamics  and  Its  Quantum 
Analogues", Second Edition, Springer-Verlag, 1990, pp. 317-320,  from 
which I now quote:
        "In a significant fraction of decays in a  properly  prepared 
target and source, the emitting and absorbing atoms do not recoil  at 
all.  The reason for this can be understood if one thinks  about  the 
nature of the coherent states that can be formed from  the  radiation 
oscillators just discussed.  ...  Let  the spinless  quantized  field 
(with m = 0) represent the motion of these atoms, analyzed  in  terms 
of pressure waves.  The quanta of the field are phonons.   ...   Note 
that these quanta 
            ARE NOT SIMPLY RELATED TO ANYTHING A SINGLE ATOM DOES,
for
            EACH QUANTUM INVOLVES THE MOTION OF EVERY SINGLE ATOM  in 
the sample.  ...  If one atom emits  a  gamma  ray  ...,  vibrational 
modes will ordinarily be  excited  which  shift  the  entire  lattice 
around and it will finally recoil as a whole  with  an  infinitesimal 
speed.  But we are interested in the situation in which it does _NOT_
happen this way.  Instead
            THE ENTIRE LATTICE RECOILS RIGIDLY AT ONCE."
[Emphases added.]
        Unless and until the CF critics who are obstinately insisting 
upon a visualizeable mental picture can explain the  orthodox  theory 
of the Moessbauer Effect (which _cannot_ be visualized!), which leads 
to the most accurate measurement-predictions known in all of physics, 
by means of mental models  involving  billiard-ball  particles  which 
cannot travel faster than  light,  then  they  should  abandon  their 
futile  attempt  (which  as  Feynman   said,   in   the   present-day 
understanding of QM is utterly futile) and accept that there are some 
_measured_ phenomena in physics (such as Hanbury Brown's  photons  of 
coherence-length 20 meters, and such as Duane's Rule) which  make  no 
sense  unless  'reality  is  non-local'  and  every  particle   knows 
everything about every other particle in the universe.
        Berkeley nuclear physicist Stapp, who has written  an  entire 
book about the EPR Paradox resolution via Bell's Inequality (which he 
calls the 'most important result of science to date'), quoted someone 
as saying that the picture which the preceding invokes is reminiscent 
of Saint Thomas Aquinas's idea that God is the 'ground of being'  Who 
keeps the universe in existence by creating  it  and  re-creating  it 
from instant to instant.  (See also neo-Thomist philosopher  Mortimer 
Adler's book "How to Think About God.)
        If particle physics makes no sense unless  each  particle  is 
omnipresent and omniscient, why not admit  that  physics  is  on  the 
verge of agreeing with profane novelist John Updike  (speaking  about 
the Cosmic Anthropic Principle)  in  suggesting  that  we  humans  at 
near-millennium live in 'the Universe of the Evident God'?
        Perhaps we need a newsgroup for Panentheism?
-- 
Dr. Robert W. Bass, Registered Patent Agent 29,130 [ex-prof Physics]
Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT ColdFusion, pending
P.O. Box 6337, Thousand Oaks, CA 91359-6337
Voice-Mail: (818) 377-4471         e-Mail: rbrtbass ix.netcom.com
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Copyright © 1995-97 Deja News, Inc. All rights reserved.
--------------300845B26F9D-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 03:11:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA04226; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:03:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:03:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3440A025.F2256130 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:32:13 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Test Questions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WgVt41.0.e11.l1AGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI Jean-Louis and all, I still have a real problem with the current waveforms. The waveform shows current flowing outside the time the fet is on. This just can't be right. Something is wrong. Check if the fet is damaged and leaking. As you are using 2 channels, I trust the ground on the two channels are isolated from each other. Please check with a Ohm meter to ensure the ground leads of the two probes are NOT connected together. This need to be sorted out. The current waveforms are NOT correct. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 03:27:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id DAA07955; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:23:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:23:12 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971012062048_660440138 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au Subject: PMOD - Tests passed. Resent-Message-ID: <"BprcA2.0.Dy1.EKAGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg and all, You will find in my web site, my first test report about the Greg Watson's PMOD device at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/pmod.htm 1) I have used a 0.8 ohm resistive straight wire. 2) the leads are shortest as possible, I have also tested the PMOD V1.2 with a magnetic field, when I put a stack of magnets, N pole oriented towards the center of the ferrite rod the signal is magnified. I look forward to receive your comments soon, Sincerely, ( This mail has been sent at 10h21 GMT on 12 October 97 ) Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 03:37:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id DAA16264; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3440A731.6495FA34 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:02:17 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_v66e2.0.uz3.qUAGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI Jean-Louis and all, Please ensure the next series of current waveforms use DC coupling and the 0V ref is the on the centre reticle. Hope you find the problem causing current to flow outside the Fet on time. Good work so far. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 06:18:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA28203; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 06:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Murray and "Selection Rules" quotes Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:59:57 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971012130630347.AAA204 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"LlQa-2.0.bu6.-pCGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This time Rich forwards a post from Bob Sullivan which contains a quote: Here's a paragraph, written by Dr. Thomas R. Schneider of EPRI, from the introduction to the report: QUOTE Where do these efforts stand today? In my personal opinion, the overall finding is negative; that is, no verifiable evidence exists for nuclear effects consistent with the claimed 'excess heat' measurements. Indeed the lack of any significant measurements of nuclear products suggests that the proponents' interpretation of the anomalous heat as real, yet unexplainable by any chemical, electrical, or mechanical source and hence by implication a nuclear phenomenon seems to me to be, at best, an extremely naive interpretation and reflects a very poor understanding of modern scientific method. The alternative explanation, that the anomalous heat measurements are not from nuclear reactions but are the result of unidentified error or artifact, appears to me to be the only viable explanation of the 'excess heat.' END QUOTE Sullivan concludes that there is nothing to explain. McKubre points out that the experiments showed anomalous heat output with a 50 sigma accuracy, hardly "unidentified error or artifact". Arata found well defined 4He, a "nuclear product" in the palladium black cathodes of his cells which also produced well defined anomalous heat. Arata also explains why experiments such as EPRI's did not find 4He; it is produced within the cathode, and being insoluble, does not evolve unless the cathodes are heated and is undetectable unless the evolving gases are directly admitted to a mass spectrometer as Arata did. Sullivan is avoiding study of experimental results which do not fit his conclusions. There is something to explain. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 08:16:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA07479; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:12:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971012111153_1177384897 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Murray's Opinions Resent-Message-ID: <"dPtNU3.0.Lq1.QZEGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rich, Thanks for keeing us posted about the problems with work of the CG. I agree with your deep skepticism about their transmutation claims; but I think that it's a big mistake to put the energy-cell work of Randell Mills in the same pot, and I suspect that he wouldn't like seeing his work mentioned in the context of the CG's. Maybe that's one reason why you've never had any response from him. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 08:16:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA07452; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:12:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971012111149_-1059630655 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction? Resent-Message-ID: <"zoNeL.0.Hq1.QZEGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A member of the Vortex list sent me a private email asking about the passage from Mills that Scott quoted earlier: "similarly the n=1 state of hydrogen and the n=1/integer states of hydrogen are nonradiative, but a transition between two nonradiative states is possible via a resonant collision..." I prefer not to go private in the middle of a thread when there's nothing confidential involved. It fragments the discussion, and it's awfully time-consuming to carry on private subthreads, so I'm posting this answer to the member's question on Vortex-L. The member interpreted the passage quoted above as clearly implying that the transition would occur not via radiation of the delta-E but via transfer of the delta-E to another body via collision. That's a reasonable interpretation of the passage, taken by itself, but it's a mistake to stop there. Mills has said over and over again that the catalytic transition reaction that he proposes results in EUV radiation as the signature of the transition upon its completion. It's sensible of him to look for the EUV signature. Those looking for contradictions in Mills' work will have to look a little deeper than that. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 08:38:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA14659; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:33:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:33:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3440FEA2.4B71 mediacity.com> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:45:22 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction? References: <971012111149_-1059630655 emout10.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X0z5D.0.ya3.XtEGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can anyone tell me the size of Blacklight Power's financing? I think I have heard both $5 Million and $10 Million. I seem to remember there were articles in New Energy News and Infinite Energy on the placement. My files are all packed up for shipment to Auckland, and it will be a month before I can access them again. I haven't visited his webisite recently guess I should. My new paper on the Structure of the Hydrogen Atom supplants his work, and other contemporary Hydrogen theorists Philip Kanarev, Thomas G. Barnes, and Milo Wolff. My hydron (compare hydrino) structure have an order of magnitude more detail to them than Mills or anyone -- thus very easy for us now to work back-and-forth from the data to the pictures to yield values and ranges of spectra and thus productivity. Is there anyone else out there doing, or proposing to do, similar or other work -- on hydronic power? MT From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 08:50:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA11680; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34411C83.3EFA bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:52:51 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction? References: <971012111149_-1059630655 emout10.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mJJgT3.0.Os2.p3FGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: [snip] > Mills has said over and over again that the > catalytic transition reaction that he proposes results in EUV radiation as > the signature of the transition upon its completion. It's sensible of him to > look for the EUV signature. Those looking for contradictions in Mills' work > will have to look a little deeper than that. Maybe Fred Sparber can look into that incredible encyclopaedia of his and see if there is a transition in potassium whose energy corresponds to the EUV frequency claimed? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 08:53:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA17229; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:49:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:49:08 -0700 Message-ID: <34411D1F.7C94 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:55:27 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills' contradiction? References: <971012111149_-1059630655 emout10.mail.aol.com> <3440FEA2.4B71@mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LHjiX3.0.2D4.p5FGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: M.Twain wrote: > > Can anyone tell me the size of Blacklight Power's financing? I think I > have heard both $5 Million and $10 Million. [snip] The initial offering was for a bit over $5M. The demand was so great that they expanded the offering and placed over $10M. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 08:55:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA12166; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 08:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344102BD.62BC mediacity.com> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:02:53 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenerg-l@eskimo.com Subject: New Charter, DePalma Institute Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Zzyyn.0._z2.u7FGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have no details to add on Bruce DePalma's death. Here is one of his final compositions, the new charter for the Institute. It will be posted on the [http://www.depalma.org.nz] website soon. I arrive in Auckland in six days, to become the new student (synonomous with teacher) there. to healing, to nature, to work for a tomorrow, Millennium gardener-in-chief, DePalma Institute ________________________ 19 September 1997 DePalma Institute     1)  DePalma Institute is a New Zealand registered non-profit, non-taxed, charitable educational Trust. 2)  The Institute is chartered to provide a free education to suitably constituted individuals.  Food, board, housing, as well as educational expenses are provided by the Institute. 3)  The goal of the Institute is to intellectually and morally prepare young people for life in a sustainable ecologically balanced society.   4)  DePalma Institute is primarily concerned with ecological and environmental sustainability as supported by hi-tech engineering and science.   5)  DePalma Institute operates on an apprentice basis.  A laboratory will be operated where students can participate in research and development on energy techniques which do not produce pollution or noxious by-products.   6)  Entrance to DePalma Institute is facilitated by interviews with the candidate by Institute staff.  Once admitted the student is on a probationary period of six months.  Students who's personalities are not compatible with an ecologically sustainable planetary society will not be formally admitted.   7)  Students will have to take an oath that none of the science or engineering techniques acquired at DePalma Institute during the course of their education will ever be applied in a life endangering manner or in an ecologically destructive way to the planet. 8)  A Christian moral atmosphere will be cultivated among the students. 9)  Graduation for a student occurs when in the opinion of the student and his teachers he has finished the period of his education and moves on to practical work in the world. 10)  The Goal for the Institute is a culturally and ecologically sustainable planet.  Preparation for this life should begin with the youth.  DePalma Institute stresses that life is a balance between cultural and technological forces. 11)  The only criterion placed on students is that they are healthy and capable of creative and constructive contributions to our society.  There are no restrictions because of race, colour, sex, age or religious beliefs. 12)  It is recognized by DePalma Institute that a sustainable, i.e. viable planetary society cannot be constructed out of individuals who place greed, or personal power or control developed irrespective of the limitations of the natural world.  On this planet, food, air, water, energy and space are not available in infinite supply.   These same limitations have to penetrate the world of commerce and business.  Ownership can never be total, control complete, or money unlimited.   The future citizens of a sustainable planetary economy will have a different set of priorities in the living of their lives.  Supplies and energy are not unlimited, a throw-away economy is not viable.   A new source of non-polluting energy cannot in itself address the deeper issues of re-constructing society, to be sustainable.  As a consequence of the unique geo-political location of New Zealand there exists here the possibility of evolving a self-sufficient society in which all the requirements of civilization can be generated locally without the necessity of importation of anything especially oil and gasoline.   It is the commitment of DePalma Institute to prepare students for the next phase of planetary existence.  The stage where we must learn to live in a society configured for self-sustainability. The best way to achieve this goal on a planetary basis is to provide an example for the rest of the world to follow. If we fail, the obverse of sustainability is un-sustainability, and as the Bible says: "our days are numbered."   Bruce DePalma From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 09:45:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id JAA23081; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:27:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:27:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Electrical Bricks? Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:21:37 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd72a$eb0801a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD6F8.A06D91A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"N5uZc.0.Ue5.yfFGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD6F8.A06D91A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Vortex, FWIW. The use of clay or clay products such as bricks and the ion = exchange properties thereof raises the possibility of embedding wires or = wire mesh in the unfired clay so that electrical "starting" of the P&F = or CETI effects might be possible. Alkai Cations-Carbonates or Hydrogen Carbonates can be intoduced into = the matrix of the fired (or unfired) clay to take advantange of the = Zeolite-Molecular Sieve properties, the 17% or more void volume, and the = enormous surface area in the fired material. After firing, aqueous solutions of the Salts can = be used to load the clays and do Ion Exchange readily. One might consider Palladium or Nickel wires or wire mesh for the = "internal electrodes". Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD6F8.A06D91A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To Vortex,
 
FWIW. The use of clay or clay = products such as=20 bricks and the ion exchange properties thereof raises the possibility of = embedding wires or wire mesh in the unfired clay so that electrical=20 "starting" of the P&F or CETI effects might be=20 possible.
 
Alkai Cations-Carbonates or Hydrogen = Carbonates=20 can be intoduced into the matrix of the fired (or unfired) clay to take=20 advantange of the Zeolite-Molecular Sieve properties, the 17% or more = void=20 volume, and the enormous surface area
in the fired material. After firing, = aqueous=20 solutions of the Salts can be used to load
the clays and = do Ion=20 Exchange readily.
 
One might consider Palladium or = Nickel wires or=20 wire mesh for the "internal electrodes".
 
Regards,         &n= bsp;     =20 Frederick
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD6F8.A06D91A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 10:34:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA30948; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:09:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:09:57 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt. Murray notes: CG tungsten claim Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:08:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19971012170843.AAA762 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"8V4Ty.0.TZ7.ZHGGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, > >Some people want to deny cold fusion. Others only want to talk about >its successes. Here at EarthTech we are interested in observing cold >fusion. I certainly admire your tenacity and willingness to do the actual work of science. I am interested in your observations. My idea here is not to give advice or criticize so much as to understand why you are doing it as you are. I am a true neophite amateur, striving for novice status... >Attempt to Observe Excess Heat in a Ni-H2O-K2CO3 >Electrolysis System - 9OCT97 > >Introduction: >Dr. Randall Mills reports multiple observations of excess heat in the >Ni-H2O-K2CO3 system on the Blacklight Power web page at >http://www.blacklightpower.com. In the section entitled Detail on >Technology and Representative Technical Support several examples are >mentioned: >We utilized the cell structure from our Ragland triode experiments. It >features a plastic frame that holds the cathode and two anodes (one for >each side of the cathode). This frame seals into a 100 ml beaker and has >provisions to hold Pd-coated alumina pellets which serve to recombine >the electrolysis gasses. > >We mounted a 1 cm2 piece of Ni Fibrex sheet (a felt-like material made >of Ni with a high surface area) in the cathode holder and crimped a Ni >lead wire to it.=20 > >We used 1 in2 pieces of Pt mesh for the anodes (one anode on each side >of the Ni Fibrex sheet). > >We did employ the recombiner pellets. > >We filled the cell with a 0.3M solution of K2CO3 in H2O. Is this a static calorimeter, or is there there cooling water running through it like the Arata (is that an isoperibolic) cell? >Conclusion: >Our Mills experiment shows no detectable sign of excess heat. A 10% >excess=85less than any of the reported confirmations of Mills' experiment >showed=85would have produced a prominent positive signal in our >experiment. > >We would like to make this experiment work. Any suggestions? Why did you choose this molarity for electrolyte? Do you have an idea of what molarities and solutes were used for successful claims? I wrote= earlier: "Scott, Dennis Cravens told me (at the moment we were discussing this, about a year ago) that infrared seemed to be a trigger. He thought that because cells immersed in a water bath calorimeter were not starting, implying simple human body infrared as a source. I was working on a regulated temperature water bath and he said don't bother." I also remember him saying (if memory serves) that the K2CO3 was not the best solute. I think he preferred LiOH. But his biggest emphasis was on getting the molarity high enough (perhaps it contributes to loading) and I remember 1.0M. Is the water distilled and de-ionized? Can captured cell gases' molar proportion reveal loading, i.e. 'orphaned oxygen', on a for-sure basis? It seems that all you are doing is testing your calibration (which is more than adequate), which is all I was able to accomplish in my Ni-K2CO3 system. =20 Until confirmation of adequate loading, results cannot be conclusive. Of course, even with a confirmed [H]/[Ni] =3D 0.88, you might need a trigger= like an electrical spike, or an IR exposure, or a superposition of high frequency onto the DC, or for all I know, some contaminant not yet elucidated. If it is a constant temperature cell, perhaps you need to let it get hotter. I realize you have probably heard all these things, but your thoughts on them would be interesting. My experimental efforts have flagged because of a lack of working space, but I may try it again if I have a clearer direction in which to proceed (like if I hear EUREKA from Earthtech). Best Regards, Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 12:03:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA27010; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:57:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:57:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:57:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710121857.NAA15323 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"w_4C42.0.ub6.hsHGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:08 PM 10/12/97 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: >Is this a static calorimeter, or is there there cooling water running >through it like the Arata (is that an isoperibolic) cell? It is a water-flow calorimeter. You can read about it on our web page (address below) under Calorimetry, Water-Flow Calorimetry and the Evan Ragland Triode Cell. I forgot to mention in my short description of our Mills' cell test that we operated the calorimeter at 60C for these tests. Thus the cell was always at least 60C and, during the 5 watt portion of the run probably got up to 70C. I think "isoperibolic" means "same temperature all around" and refers to keeping a cell in a constant temperature bath and measuring the delta-T between the cell innards and the bath to infer heat power in the cell. >Why did you choose this molarity for electrolyte? it was a guess based on earlier work. It was sufficient to get ~3 volts across the cell. >Do you have an idea of >what molarities and solutes were used for successful claims? I did see recently that 0.57M was used in one of the references Mills gives. >I also remember him saying (if memory serves) that the K2CO3 was not the >best solute. He (Cravens) probably did say that...but all of Mills' experiments use K2CO3. >Is the water distilled and de-ionized? just distilled....from the grocery store. >Can captured cell gases' molar proportion reveal loading, i.e. 'orphaned >oxygen', on a for-sure basis? Yes. When I run a thick Pd cathode in this calorimeter system with the gas displacement apparatus connected, I see 50-70 cc of gas emerging from the cell which works out to about a 0.7-0.9 loading of the Pd. In the case of the Ni, there was apparently 0 cc of gas that emerged. >It seems that all you are doing is testing your >calibration (which is more than adequate), which is all I was able to >accomplish in my Ni-K2CO3 system. Right. >Until confirmation of adequate loading, results cannot be conclusive. I don't think Mills expects the Ni to become loaded with H, does he? It think he's expecting hydrino formation to occur when nascent H atoms at the Ni surface contact K ions from the solution. That aside, I also don't think that Ni loads with H signficantly under any circumstances at low temps. >you might need a trigger like >an electrical spike, or an IR exposure, or a superposition of high frequency >onto the DC, or for all I know, some contaminant not yet elucidated. Certainly these stimuli have been tried by some investigators. Dennis Letts, a neighbor of ours, has played around with the IR and the RF stimuli with apparent success but everytime he brings a cell over here it does not show excess heat in our calorimeters. We do not know why. >My experimental efforts have flagged because of a lack of working space, but >I may try it again if I have a clearer direction in which to proceed (like >if I hear EUREKA from Earthtech). I will certainly shout EUREKA if it ever happens, Ed. And I will then do what I can to support guys like you getting to observe the same thing. BTW, Cravens called me after reading of my recent Mills test and suggested that I go to much lower current densities (<100 mA/cm^2) on the Ni cathode. He says this is a key aspect of the Mills-style Ni-K2CO3-H2O experiment. To accomplish this and still stay up above 1 watt so my calorimetry will have adequate accuracy, I will have to use a much larger cathode. I am considering doing this next. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 12:27:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA00344; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:15:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199710121915.PAA12176 bort.mv.net> Subject: CETI patent #5,672,259 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 15:22:20 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"R4Z343.0.H5.Z7IGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians, I have returned from the UK from the funeral of Chris Tinsley, an emotionally difficult experience. But we were very happy to be with Soo, the other gracious family members and friends. Also, Jed and I spent a few days visiting with Martin Fleischmann at his lovely home. We will both have lots to say about our travels in the next issue of IE (#15), which we hope will go to the printer by the end of this month. I just wanted to get this out quickly: The patent for transmutation of actinides has just been granted to CETI (September 30, 1997) -- we will be publishing the whole thing in IE#15. I received a copy from CETI: Patent Number 5,672,259 "System with Electrolytic Cell and Method for Producing Heat and Reducing Radioactivity of a Radioactive Material by Electrolysis" -- James A. Patterson Abstract An electrolytic cell, system and method far producing excess heat for use and for deactivation (of) an actinide series metal by electrolysis in an aqueous media. The electrolytic cell includes a non-conductive housing having an inlet and an outlet and spaced apart first and second conductive grids positioned within the housing. A plurality of preferably cross linked polymer non-metallic cores each having an improved conductive exterior metallic surface formed of one or more of the actinides or daughter elements therefrom to form a bed of conductive beads are positioned within the housing in electrical contact with the first grid adjacent the inlet. The non-conductive cores are preferably sulfonated and then evaporation loaded with an actinide salt solution, dried and fired at decomposition temperature of the salt. An electric power source in the system is operably connected across the first and second grid whereby electrical current flows between the grids within the aqueous media flowing through the cell. The patent includes detailed data that shows the large reduction in radioactivity experienced in several experiments. Seems pretty complete in description of how to go about preparing the beads. Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 13:10:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA13562; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:04:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:04:41 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:04:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: Scott Little cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... In-Reply-To: <199710121857.NAA15323 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bezxH1.0.iJ3.OrIGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, I am a new subscriber to Vortex and I'm looking for people who are interested in Ball Lightning and it's possible artificial manufacture. It would appear that you and your correspondents are into "cold" fusion experiments. Not my thing exactly but I was hoping that you or someone on Vortex would know of a source of cheap (inexpensive non-indicator grade) deuterium oxide (heavy water) . Frank Stenger reccommended that I check out this group . He has built a pretty neat spark discharge system capable of about 6000 joules. He said he might test an idea of mine for me with it but we would need the heavy water to do the test. Any suggestions? Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 13:16:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA14806; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:08:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:08:38 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Off Topic, Smooth Sailing. Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:01:59 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd749$b3e2c920$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD717.9526D120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"IDLKx1.0.Ad3.3vIGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD717.9526D120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Vo, Heard on the news that three strange ships Captained by an Italian = fellow with a crew of Spaniards landed on an island in the Bahamas this morning. = Said he was taking over. Also asked if anyone knew what time it was? Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD717.9526D120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To Vo,
 
Heard on the news that three strange = ships=20 Captained by an Italian fellow with
a crew of Spaniards landed on an = island in the=20 Bahamas this morning. Said he was taking over. Also asked if anyone knew = what=20 time it was?
 
Regards,     =20 Frederick
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD717.9526D120-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 13:37:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA19819; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:27:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:27:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199710122027.QAA18695 bort.mv.net> Subject: Re: FW: Message from Gene Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 16:33:50 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" , "VORTEX" cc: "List Server Freenrg" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"Odf1f1.0.Or4.dAJGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I except to have several RMOG's built by mid week. They only have ONE >moving part (the rotor). > >Please provide your desired mailing address. > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson Here is the address: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com Eagerly awaiting the packages. I am now back in New Hampshire. ---Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 15:29:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA16398; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:15:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: <34414B56.14EF9726 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:42:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Tests (Drive device) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZDfAh2.0.y_3.olKGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, The waveform I have drawn on my site is what I see when I do the Ferrite Critical Response Test. I use a BU2508A transistor to drive the coil. This device is designed to drive EHT / Deflection systems in Monitors & TVs. It needs a lot of base drive current to turn on QUICKLY, which makes it harder to use than a fet, but it is designed for this type of role. It also doesn't have an internal reverse damping diode. I will try a Fet today, but I don't believe the parasitic cap in the fet will give the waveform shown. The internal protection diode could be a worry as most of then have slow turn off times. The waveform shows NO reduction in current flow as the fet is switched off. It actually continues to increase at the SAME rate. This is not right. You MUST use the ground connection on the scope probe and make everything as short as possible to get clean images. We are looking at very fast events here. I use a 0.1 ohm wire resistor bent into a loop. I gently solder the coil side of the resistor directly to the earth ring around the tip of the probe and do likewise to the probe's active tip. I use the probe on 10x and let the scopes amps do the work of bringing up the signals level. I also use DC coupling as AC coupling can cause variations in the baseline over the sweep. With the proper set-up, you will get a waveform like that shown on my site. When we get there, we can take the next step and tune the drive pulse width to the Ferrite's Critical Response Time. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 22:05:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA02648; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:54:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:54:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3441A91E.2A608A81 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:22:46 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Ferrite Critical Response Test Rig Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3SNeG1.0.Af.DcQGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, I have updated my site with more info on the PMOD. The circuit I have posted is from my PMOD research notebook. I have updated it with a better fet and drive circuit. I am going into town to buy the bits now. Will post hand drawn current waveforms in about 6 hours. The circuit should be very easy to duplicate. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 12 23:00:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA11619; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:51:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:51:48 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:51:41 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Keeping our beads on the wire Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"C3Py42.0.Tr2.pRRGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A few weeks ago somebody mentioned the necessity to keep one's "bead" on the wire between total belief and total skepticism. I finally found the passage where I first encountered this concept. I absolutely love the idea; it clearly points out that over-gullibility is not the only danger when looking into new ideas. It counters the widespread 'scientific' idea that one cannot have too much skepticism. And, if we always accept that even the most solid theory may be imperfect, and also that even the craziest idea always has a finite amount of merit, it prevents us from adopting "fanatical beliefs" and their unfortunate effects, regardless of whether our fanatacism tends towards that of the "believer" or of the "skeptic." *********************************************************************** From: The Nature of Knowledge, R. A. Lyttleton THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF IGNORANCE, edited by R. Duncan and M. Weston-Smith, 1977 Pergamon Press Ltd, Oxford UK pp13-14 "Before discussing how new ideas and new hypotheses, on which new theories may be built and tested, come to be invented, let us leave the theme for a moment and consider what attitude a scientist should adopt towards such novelties, or indeed towards existing ideas and theories. In a recent lecture Medawar dealt with this briefly by the piece of advice, "Never fall in love with your hypothesis." But controlled energy and enthusiasm are needed to work upon and examine a hypothesis sufficiently carefully, and these are qualities turned on as it were by emotional drive, and if one succeeds in not actually falling in love with one's ideas, which state notoriously weakens if not altogether disables a person's judgment and critical faculty, then how far should one go in relation to a new idea, whether one's own or someone else's? This is obviously a subjective question, but knowably or not, if an idea comes to the awareness of a scientist, he will begin to adopt some attitude to it. This will result from interaction of the idea with all his previous experience, remembered or not, and his character and temperament and so on, and these will combine of their own accord to determine an attitude. The scientific attitude to adopt in regard to any hypothesis in my view (and we are talking of subjective things,) can be represented schemat- ically by means of a simple model of a bead that can be moved on a short length of horizontal wire (see diagram on next page). Suppose the left-hand end denoted by 0 (zero) and the right-hand end by 1 (unity), and let 0 correspond to complete disbelief unqualified, and the right-hand end 1 to absolute certain belief in the hypothesis. Now the principle of practice that I would urge on all intending scientists in regard to any and every hypothesis is: NEVER LET YOUR BEAD EVER QUITE REACH THE POSITION 0 OR 1. This is quite possible, for however close to the end one may have set it, there are still an infinite number of points to move the bead to in either direction in the light of new data or new arguments or whatever. If genuine scientific data reach your attention that increase your confidence in the hypothesis, then move your bead suitably towards 1, but never let it quite get there. If decreasing confidence is engendered by genuine data, then let your bead move towards 0, but again never let it quite reach there. Your changing confidence must be the result of your own independent scientific judgment of the data or arguments or proofs and so on, and not be allowed to result from arguments based on reputation of others, nor upon such things as numerical strength of believers or disbelievers. When Einstein heard that a book was being brought out entitled "A Hundred Against Einstein", he merely said "One would be enough!" My own beads for Newtonian dynamics and Maxwell's equations are very near to 1, and for flying saucers and the Loch Ness monster very near to 0. But these it must be emphasized are my own subjective beads, and it seems there exist people whose beads for UFOs are near to 1 or even at it and beyond, the consequences of which we proceed to discuss. It seems to be a common defect of human minds that they tend to crave for complete certainty of belief or disbelief in anything. Not only is this undesirable scientifically, but it must be recognized that no such state is attainable in science. However successful and reliable a theory may be up to any point of time, further data may come along and show a need for adjustment of the theory, while at the other extreme, however little confidence one has in a hypothesis, new data may change the situation. We come now to the reason why one should never allow a bead ever to get right to 0 or 1: that is, if one does so, the bead will fall into a deep potential-well associated with every facet of non-scientific or even anti-scientific emotion. In some cases the depth may tend to infinity, especially with advancing years, and no amount of data conflicting with the certain belief or disbelief will ever get the bead out of the well back onto even tenor of the wire. Any attempt to bring about the uplifting of a bead so situated, by means of data or reason, can sometimes lead the owner of the bead to manifest further attitudes unworthy scientifically. In some cases it may be useless to discuss the hypothesis or theory to which the bead relates. On the other hand, if the bead is kept somewhere on the wire BETWEEN 0 and 1 always, it can if necessary be moved quite readily in response to new data with the owner remaining calmly tranquil rather than undergoing an emotional upset. With such reaction to hypotheses and theories, one can get genuine scientific pleasure from adjusting one's beads to take account of new data and new arguments. From the small sample that my experience has limited me to, it seems regrettably to be the case that few even among scientists are always capable of keeping their beads on the wire, and much tact may be needed if one wishes to help to restore them to a rational level on the ire, if indeed in some cases it is possible as all. In Nazi Germany, it would have been dangerous indeed to have one's bead on the wire even near to 1 as an attitude to the theory that theirs was a super-race destined to rule the world; 99.9 per cent of the beads were deep down the well and only violent efforts proved sufficient to move some of them. So one of the things I would like to see scientists directed to do is always to keep their beads safely on the wire, in order that their minds may be receptive to new ideas and advances. In the words of one Chan, "Human mind like parachute: work best when open", and OPEN means on the wire somewhere between 0 and 1." ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 00:03:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA22581; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:49:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:49:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199710130649.XAA04053 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "vortex" , "George Hathaway" Subject: Re: Coler et al Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:28:18 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RxJ0-.0.gW5.gHSGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi George, Thanks for the information! For some reason Martin, or "kami", cannot get on this list. Sorry the message didn't come through properly the first time... Fred > Several months ago my wife received a garbled telephone message from > Mr. Epps suggesting I email kami iarica.com regarding the Coler device. > Needless to say, I was unsuccessful at contacting "kami". Recently I saw > posted on Vortex the proper "kami" email address so here, at long last, is > my response. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 00:05:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id AAA27183; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3441C6BE.A3F26F48 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:29:10 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 References: <199710130619.XAA07567 germany.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ERQqs.0.ee6.3SSGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave Dameron wrote: > > Hi Greg and all, > Today I tried my first version of a PMOD. I wired a > 1) MOSFET, driven by a 74121 mono-vibrator. I am using a IRF510 device. Its rated at 200V, 4A, 20/20Ns turn on/off. Should do the job. You could do with a better gate drive system. We need the fet really turned on and off fast. To do this requires a lot of source and sink from the driver to charge / discharge the fet's gate cap. > 2) Supply bypass capacitor, connected to 6 volts. Use only high freq decoupling caps. I use 5 x 0.1uf monolithic as use on most computer mother boards and a 10uf tant thrown in for good measure. > 3) Coil, 16 turns 1.7cm diam, 1cm length, measured 5uH in air. Sound about right. > 4) 0.4 Ohm NI resistor (1cm of resistance wire) OK, Could be smaller. Less observer effect. > together as the edges of a 3cm square. Good. > The mosfet limited the current to 1A by its conductance with only a 5 Volt > gate input. (no coil) > With a air core coil, got a +pulse which was limited by the MOSFET before > 100nS,but < 1 Amp. > Input pulse widths varied from about <0.1 to 1uS. The minimum pulse was with > a 50pF cap. and 1.5k resistor for the 74121 timing. When the gate pulse > ended, got a neg. pulse across the R, amplitude proportional to pulse width, > then ringing at about 12MHz, as Jack DeMule described. > > With a ferrite rod (AM radio) antenna, the linear increase in current could > be seen, possibly vith very small Barkhausen variations, >20mHz. There are fast, but there. I use 10/20Ns / div most of the time. > the effects Greg described were before the first 100nS and 0.1 volt (0.25Amp) > SORRY, my oscilloscope is only 15mHz and the fastest trace is 0.5uS/cm. > There is still the neg. inductive pulse, then ringing, more damped that the > air case. > Using switching ferrite, a closed loop with magnetic length 30cm, the > amplitude is too small to see, so cannot resolve the first non-ferrite > pulse, reversal, etc. So it happened within the first 50 or so nS, not > afterward. Be careful. You need a air gap in the mag circuit or the flux may staircase (keep increasing with each H pulse until the ferrite is saturated). We want the ferrite to start out at the BOTTOM of its B/H curve. > With the core not completely closed, a waveform like the ferrite rod can be > seen, but decrasing in amplitude and disappearing as the ferrite gaps are > closed. Because of this limitation, did not look at the output of another > coil on the other ferrite leg. Correct. A air gap is needed to allow the domains to return to their unaligned state prior to the next (H) current pulse. > >Hope you find the problem causing current to flow outside the Fet on time. Believe the protection diode conducts with the first large negative pulse. If its slow to turn off, it will continue to conduct for some time. IF this happens to you, reduce the supply voltage until the reverse conduction stops and then observe the current waveform and reduce the coil drive pulse width to stop at the top of the first positive current pulse. You can then increase supply voltage without getting a large back Emf pulse into the fet. The back Emf will still be there, but as the fet is turned off its not so much a problem. > My conclusion: faster equipment than what I have is needed to see the PMOD > effect. What I could see is the initial, then back EMP pulse, then resonant > ringing. Believe 50Mhz scope with GOOD x10 probes will do. > -Dave Hi Dave, Good work. Check out the Ferrite Critical Response Test Rig on the PMOD page. I am building the circuit as per my instructions so we can do this by the numbers and get it right. No Magic, just engineering. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 01:07:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id BAA01338; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3441D526.9D1767F3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:30:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD and Light Speed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bRUei3.0.jK.2MTGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, Jean-Louis just sent me a cleaned up circuit. I did a few mods and now the world can see it. How did we work and develop things before the net? Should have my replication working in a few hours. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 01:20:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA01495; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:09:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:09:40 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:01:02 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Tampere: "Motional Electric Field"? Resent-Message-ID: <"LPsPG.0.HN.3TTGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts - On Nils Rognerud's site at http://www.best.com/~rognerud/html/intro.html , there is a rejected paper that tries to describe induction in a way that appears to introduce something new or overlooked. I can't tell myself if it succeeds in this, but I've heard it doesn't. I think this paper has been discussed here before, so my apologies if this is just another retread. Anyway, the reason I'm mulling this over is because I'm trying to find a reason for the Tampere/Schnurer type experiments that doesn't rely on gravity shielding or antigravity generation. I was thinking along the lines of some odd Hall effects in the SC from spinning amidst the magnets and drive coils. One skeptic of the Tampere experiment dismisses the reported result as perhaps being some "unknown EM effects". He he - no antigravity here folks, nothing unusual at all; just some unknown electromagnetic effects. Like those cold fusion experiments showing no nuclear products consistent with the amount of heat produced - just some unknown thermal effects ("artifacts"), nothing to be interested in, right? Uh, wouldn't your average Vortexian be just a little bit pleased if he or she could reliably replicate some "unknown EM effects" on their workbench? I'm most intrigued by the stuff on this page of the series: http://www.best.com/~rognerud/html/sec_2.html . It reminds me of the homopolar setup where you might try to shield the external circuit, but you can't for some reason. It's always part of the deal - it somehow 'knows' it's moving relative to the generating element (must be the spin orientation of those gyroscopic particles - ahem...). If the conductive disc isn't spinning, but the external circuit is, then current should also flow normally as well, according to the conversations we had on that subject a while back. The point of interest here is the unshieldable and supposedly difficult to detect field, the "motional electric field". Supposedly according to the above paper, this field gets balanced by a normal electrostatic field in a conductor so the net electric field is zero even though free charge carriers are redistributed in the conductor. This sounds to me like it might be wrong somehow, but if that's basically the case, then such a situation - especially if it's difficult or 'impossible' to shield, might be responsible for the weight changes in the Tampere claims. Harder to explain is the reported vertical column of effect. Can there be such a thing as an electric field from a small aperature (the area of the SC) which shows very little or no divergence over some meters? 'Course I know that's the principle of the gizmo the little grey dudes use to 'freeze' our muscles when we try to approach one of their craft, but I mean, you know, *really*... If anyone interested has any comments or knows any important flaws in the paper above, please post. For instance, is there really an unshieldable field created? Does anyone *really* understand what happens in and around conductors during induction? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 02:53:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id CAA05683; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Hydrino Formation Via Light Lepton Pairs vs Fractional Orbit Electrons Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 03:43:08 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd7bc$6a3c6e20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BCD78A.46B8B4E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"qw1h22.0.iO1.HwUGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BCD78A.46B8B4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Vortex, In the intrinsically negatively charged interstices of Zeolite minerals = (Alumino-Silicates) a cation such as any of the monovalent alkali metals = (M+) or Protons-Deuterons (H+ or D+) will be tied up with the negatively = charged sites. For charge balance, the sites will be neutralized even during synthesis = of the mineral, either by protons-deuterons from the interstitial water = or M+ or M++ cations in the water. This will leave the matching anion(s) = (OH-, HCO3-, CO3=3D, SO4=3D, Cl-, HPO4=3D, etc.) free in the water.=20 A similarity to the electrolysis cells can be seen here, as well as = conditions amenable to either fractional electron orbit Hydrino formation, or Light = Lepton pair production and subsequent absorbtion resulting in = Hydrino-Electrino production with energy release and/or transmutation = reactions. Athermal/non-Radiation or otherwise. Either or Both? Or Neither? :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BCD78A.46B8B4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To Vortex,
 
In the intrinsically negatively charged interstices = of Zeolite=20 minerals (Alumino-Silicates) a cation such as any of the monovalent = alkali=20 metals (M+) or Protons-Deuterons (H+ or D+) will be tied up with the = negatively=20 charged sites.
 
For charge balance, the sites will be neutralized = even during=20 synthesis of the mineral, either by protons-deuterons from the = interstitial=20 water or M+ or M++ cations in the water. This will = leave the=20 matching anion(s) (OH-, HCO3-, CO3=3D, SO4=3D, Cl-, HPO4=3D, etc.) = free in the water.
 
A similarity to the electrolysis cells can be seen = here, as=20 well as conditions
amenable to either fractional electron orbit Hydrino = formation, or Light Lepton pair production and = subsequent=20 absorbtion resulting in Hydrino-Electrino production with energy release = and/or transmutation reactions. = Athermal/non-Radiation or=20 otherwise.
 
Either or Both?  Or Neither?  = :-)
 
Regards,      = Frederick
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BCD78A.46B8B4E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 03:30:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id DAA07001; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 03:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 03:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710131021.DAA27751 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "vortex" , "Free Energy" Subject: A switching anomaly? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:48:55 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gAXps1.0.Ij1.5PVGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Folks! I would be interested in anyone's explanation of the waveform shown on Jean-louis's website at http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep62par.htm You will note that a reed switch is used to switch an inductance in and out of the tank circuit. The tank develops a small sine voltage in the mV, even though the conditions for parametric excitation are not fulfilled, there is no source of EMF, and there is no induction. Dave Dameron has seen exactly the same phenomenon in a bifilar air core switched by an analog switch. Others have seen it as well. Is it an artifact, some sort of energy transfer from the switch? Of what sort? Thanks for your help! Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 05:15:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id FAA11416; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 05:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 05:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Electroosmosis & Clays, CF Applications? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:02:39 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd7cf$e81dcb00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD79D.9D835B00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"o1yQ72.0.Io2.1zWGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD79D.9D835B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To Vortex, The phenomenon of electrical pumping of water through clays dates back = to 1809 (F. Reuss). A potential applied to a water-clay slurry results in migration of the = negatively charged clay particles and anions toward the positive = electrode and the cations and water toward the cathode. The drag of the water to the cathode by the cations is used to dewater = clay soils in many civil engineering applications. The quantity Q of liquid transported/second =3D z*I*D/4(pi)*n*k where z = is the zeta poential, I is the current, D is the dielectric constant, n = is the viscosity, and k is the conductance. Some of the finer clays have surface areas of around 2,000 meter^2/gram. Might the P&F and Patterson Cells be replaced with a bucket of clay? = :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD79D.9D835B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To Vortex,
 
The phenomenon of electrical pumping = of water=20 through clays dates back to 1809
(F. Reuss).
 
A potential applied to a water-clay = slurry=20 results in migration of the negatively charged clay particles and anions = toward=20 the positive electrode and the cations and water toward the=20 cathode.
 
The drag of the water to the cathode = by the=20 cations is used to dewater clay soils
in many civil engineering=20 applications.
 
The quantity Q of liquid = transported/second =3D=20 z*I*D/4(pi)*n*k where z is the zeta poential, I is the current, D is the = dielectric constant, n is the viscosity, and k is the = conductance.
 
Some of the finer clays have surface = areas of=20 around 2,000 meter^2/gram.
 
Might the P&F and Patterson = Cells be=20 replaced with a bucket of clay?   :-)
 
Regards,      =20 Frederick
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BCD79D.9D835B00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 06:51:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA00688; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:40:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:40:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971013082504.006a8080 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:25:04 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? In-Reply-To: <199710131021.DAA27751 mail1.halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"N3OIg1.0.UA.QJYGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:48 10/13/97 -0700, Fred Epps wrote: > I would be interested in anyone's explanation of the waveform shown on >Jean-louis's website at > >http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep62par.htm 2 things, Fred. It's sortof implied on the schematic that you're using the low voltage windings on the xfmr as the L....but I calculate an L of 1.71 henrys from the oscillation period and the C of 100nF...seems high for the low voltage windings. 2. It is a certainty that any contacts, even reed relays, can generate a few mV. I've observed it many times. I'm not sure what causes it (thermoelectric?)...but it's there. One thing I would do is close the reed switch and leave it closed and let the scope take a picture of the resulting waveform. Does it decay exponentially to zero?...or does it decay to a DC level equal to the peak voltage of the oscillation?...or does it not decay at all? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 07:50:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA12801; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:36:08 -0700 Message-Id: <344230B0.7CED1756 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:31:12 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? References: <199710131021.DAA27751 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GSy982.0.x73.N7ZGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Fred, If the voltage induced on the xformer is due to parametric switching, you could not obtain (same) signals from (A)-(C) when the a reed switch lead is disconnected from xformer lead (mimicking broken read switch). You can also monitor the noise level while the circuit is totally stopped, totally unpowered and the proposed test above. Also shielding the xformer section by faraday cage from rest of the world may help to eliminate a part of the ambient EM fields. The 60/50Hz hum is very present everywhere, It should be eliminate properly while monitoring mV range signals. If the parametric effect is effective to convert some non periodic fluctuations to a tuned frequency, it will greatly help to understand the Bipeg circuits proposed by R.R.Stiffler. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 08:02:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA13664; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:29:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 06:29:07 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:28:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710131328.IAA03693 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Resent-Message-ID: <"qoP8X1.0.QL3.Y8YGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 13, 1997 A switched electric/electronic circuit is analogous to a bell ringing once it is struck. There will always be a self resonating frequency (in lieu of a tuned one) in a circuit as fields build up or down. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 10:27:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA26418; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:06:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:06:53 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <343F40F8.820B00B2 microtronics.com.au> References: <971011040048_1276773022 emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:09:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD & Tep Resent-Message-ID: <"wumaF1.0.dS6.iKbGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It looks to me like you people are just exciting ringing in resonances above 10 MHz formed by stray capacitance and inductance. Not only does the circuit under test have these stray components, the oscilloscope itself, even with 10x probe, has capacitance, which gets added to the circuit. Greg Watson wrote: >I use a 0.1 ohm wire resistor bent into a loop. I gently solder the coil side of the resistor directly to the earth ring around the tip of the probe and do likewise to the probe's active tip. But a loop adds inductance to your current measuring resistor. This increases its sensitivity to high frequency components of the signal. It takes great care and testing to eliminate artifacts from experiments like these. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 11:57:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA22457; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:48:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:48:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:54:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex Subject: Re: Coler et al In-Reply-To: <199710130649.XAA04053 mail1.halcyon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4tcR91.0.gU5.NqcGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Fred Epps wrote: >> >>Hi George, >> >>Thanks for the information! For some reason Martin, or "kami", cannot get >>on this list. Sorry the message didn't come through properly the first >>time... >> >>Fred >> FIREWALL?? on their server? (just a thought: would need to be un-set). -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:15:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA28382; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:59:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:59:04 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013165511_-1059444642 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, noever@webtv.net Subject: 4 inch disk arrived Resent-Message-ID: <"D5qHz.0.Ox6.NkeGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A 4 inch superconductive disk arrived today from Supercondeuctive Components. I will be conducting some more energy experiments within 30 days. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:16:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA31440; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:08:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:08:47 -0700 Message-ID: <34428D84.79866665 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:37:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Magnetic flux velocity ? References: <199710111617.NAA19644 bigbox.plug-in.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xIbFy3.0._g7.RteGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Marcelo Puhl wrote: > > > Greg Watson wrote: > > > > 1.6 microseconds per meter. > > > > -- > > How did you measure that ? Two coils separated by some distance ? > > And what if you drive this two coils with properly phased pulses to > resonate the magnectic flux in the ferrite core ? > > And what if the two coils are rotated 90 degrees each other to generate a > rotating magnetic field ? > > And what if you modulate the drive signal 60 Hz ? > > Just brainstorming ... > > Marcelo HI Marcelo, The time was measured by two coils in the test setup shown on my site's one way tranfsormer experiment as part of the PMOD research. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:18:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00292; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199710132112.OAA05870 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "vortex" , "Free Energy" Subject: switching anomaly THANKS Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:21:35 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Bb-eG2.0.14.MxeGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Akira, Hamdi, and Scott, I forgot to mention-- Thanks for your help!! Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:22:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA31175; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:07:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:07:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:03:37 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: More on NHE calorimetry Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710131706_MC2-23BD-6F15 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ghYGh.0.zc7.WseGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I spent several hours with Martin Fleischmann last week while I was in the U.K. for the Chris Tinsley's funeral. We discussed many topics: some personal, a few confidential, and much boring minutiae of electrochemistry and calorimetry. I hope I can publish details in a future issue of "Infinite Energy," with Martin's permission & assistance. I learned a great deal and I enjoyed the kind hospitality and the Salisbury countryside. This has been a trying time for me. The quiet English countryside helped ease the pain. It is the most beautiful land I know, second only to Adams County, Pennsylvania. I don't care for grand vistas, thundering rivers, sheer cliffs or towering mountains. I prefer the Blue Ridge mountains to the Alps. Anyway . . . one subject I do plan to discuss soon is Martin's response to the latest pronouncements from the NHE. I will describe this here before publishing, because I want to give Kennel another chance to respond. Perhaps he will hoist himself a little higher by his own petard. Let me review the situation. In the recent Yomiuri article, and in statements published here by Elliot Kennel, the NHE has circulated the rumor that the Pons-Fleischmann calorimetry is inaccurate and unreliable. The Yomiuri wrote: "In the Pons replication experiment, we saw excess heat and by the same token we saw examples of a heat deficit, where the energy appeared to vanish" explained program manager Naoto Asami, looking back over the work. "We found problems with their calorimeter, and we feel that their entire data set is weak and questionable." Kennel said there are problems large enough to drive a truck through. He cites: T. Saito et al., "Studies on the Pons-Fleischmann Calorimetry with ICARUS-1." Proc. ICCF5, p. 105, which he claims proves there can be a 20% error in the calorimetry. He said "We [at the NHE] used their cells, their palladium, their instrumentation (of course they may have used different stuff for their experiments)." His major claim is that the calorimetry does not work because unboiled water leaves the cell: In the case of boiling cells, we were able to verify that the electrolyte is entrained in the vapor column by measuring the pH of the condensate. Whenever excess heat was calculated, it was always due to overestimating the vapor mass transport. In response to this, I pointed out to Kennel that: the problems of entrained water have been described in the literature by Pons and Fleischmann and others; the causes and cures are well known, and you should never let this problem go unfixed. I asked Kennel whether the problem occurs with a joule heater, and whether the NHE can make two-thirds of the water leave the cell unboiled, which is what they have to do to disprove Pons and Fleischmann. Naturally, he did not answer. I take his silence to mean they can only produce a tiny false excess, and they are pretending that this 2% or 10% error can explain a 300% result. That is the usual innumerate "skeptical" argument. If they could entrain two-thirds of the water by boiling it in an ordinary test tube, that would be a major discovery on the front cover of "Nature." Lots of things can go wrong in an experiment. A wet thermistor will produce a bogus reading. If your thermistor gets wet, you should not jump to conclusions, call a press conference and tell the Yomiuri you have discovered Pons and Fleischmann must have had a wet thermocouple and that explains why their experiment failed. You should first review the literature or ask them whether they checked for this problem. The NHE and other establishment labs do science by press conference. First they attack a rival scientist in the mass media without revealing the technical reason for the attack; then they circulate rumors about the reason; then, much later (or never) they publish a paper describing the supposed problem. They wait until the public has forgotten the dispute and the rival's reputation is permanently damaged. That's the prologue. I described these developments to Martin Fleischmann. We had a good laugh, and then he had many interesting things to say. First, I owe the NHE and Kennel an apology. I assumed they were kidding. I assumed they know darn well this is not a real problem. I assumed they know Pons and Fleischmann checked for it, and that any fool would check for it. I figured the NHE must have read the literature and consulted with Pons and Fleischmann. I never imagined that they would call a press conference to denounce a Fellow of the Royal Society without at least telling him in advance and soliciting his opinion about the matter. Well, I was wrong. The NHE leaked this entrained water hypothesis to various people over the years. Some of these people told me about it, starting back at ICCF5. But it turns out they never told Martin Fleischmann. He heard about it for the first time from me. So I was wrong. They NHE never consulted with Fleischmann, and I doubt they have read the literature. They are not kidding: they sincerely believe they have discovered a real problem. Martin was not shocked to hear about the entrainment problem. He concurred with my guess that foam may be a factor. But he pointed out a more serious problem with the NHE. Somehow the NHE scientists became confused about the protocol and they ended up adding too much water to the cell. They start with the correct level of electrolyte, which is low in the test tube. It can be boiled off without significant entrainment. However, this is an open cell and the water is gradually carried away as effluent gas, according to Faraday's law. Periodically it must be replenished. Somehow or other, for some reason, instead of adding 2 ml, the NHE added 4. Martin pointed out this error many times, but they persisted. In some cases they filled the test tube up to the stopper. It spurted out even before it boiled! You cannot see the water level in these cells. Earlier cells were transparent, or the top could be removed you could peek inside with a dentist's inspection mirror. With the NHE cells you cannot tell where the water level is, so some people may fill them too high. (By "some people" I mean that special class of people who forget Faraday's law and ignore repeated urgent advice from a world-class electrochemist.) There has been some talk of adding a small window to the side of the cell to prevent this from happening in the future. In any case, the NHE people kept adding too much water during these experiments. This plays hob with electrolysis by increasing electrical impedance, and it makes massive entrainment unavoidable. Maybe when you fill the cell right to the top you *can* drive out two-thirds of the water unboiled. Who knows, maybe they did it on purpose . . . I doubt it, but I do not know. Martin discussed the Saito paper. As I said here previously, this paper is over my head. The mathematics and electrochemistry are beyond me. However, Martin was kind enough to demonstrate the gist of the claims in a graphical format that I can understand. He showed me the X, Y and intercept in the data the paper was based upon. Martin agrees with Kennel: Saito has indeed shown that with this data a 20% error is possible. With this particular data you could draw just about any line you want, and you can prove any claim you like, with Martin's equations or Saito's creatively revised equations, which would make a big splash in calorimetry if they were right. You can even prove the impossible, as Kennel described: "the imaginary radiative heat transfer coefficient, k_R1 was observed to be larger than the real radiative heat transfer coefficient k_R2 . . ." Martin showed me three graphs from three different NHE ICARUS-1 experiments. The first two showed unambiguous excess heat along with calibration pulses that did not appear to violate any laws. The noise level in these first two graphs was small. Then we looked at a third sample of data. It was a mess. Variation along the Y-axis is so great that you can pick four points and draw two lines that will intercept with a 20% difference. The actual answer is buried in the noise. You couldn't do that with the first two graphs, so Saito et al. ignored them and wrote their paper about the third one. They picked a data set which allows them to draw any conclusion they please. When I heard these stories I felt a twinge of anger and deep sadness. Don't get me wrong: I am not angry with the NHE scientists. Fatuous stupidity and cheating don't bother me. No, I felt angry at fate, and sad because I cannot share these stories with Chris Tinsley. He would have roared with laughter. Cold fusion scientists, anti-cold fusion scientists, and renegade, former cold fusion scientists like Ikegami cheat all the time. This is how the game is played. It makes Gene furious, but Chris and I thought it is hilarious. I still think so, but a joke you cannot share is no fun. Maybe the readers of "Infinite Energy" will get a kick out of it. I hope we can publish the graphs. One final point. Kennel, who probably does not know any better, says: "we used their cells, their palladium . . . (of course they may have used different stuff for their experiments)." Of course they did. As I have said hundreds of times, cathode material is the most important parameter in these experiments. Many people outside the NHE program have told me that the NHE did not use Johnson-Matthey special Type A palladium. Martin confirmed that. They used only standard, off-the-shelf J-M palladium. This works much better than most palladium. That is why they got convincing excess heat from the two runs which Saito & Ikegami are trying to bury. The data from Miles and others show that J-M's standard palladium is much better than material from other precious metal companies. It is miles ahead of what the NHE is trying to use today, as demonstrated in the recent tests performed by Storms. But their standard Pd is not as good the their Type A, used in hydrogen filters. So why doesn't the NHE use Type A? Why doesn't everyone? Politics! Why else? Politics so complicated I cannot to explain them, even if I had not promised my inside sources I will keep the details & names confidential. Byzantine politics, overweening pride, intrigue, an obsession with phantom future market shares . . . the usual nonsense. Have I been told the real reason? I don't know. I do not even know if there is a "real reason." You might as well ask why IBM dumped hundreds of millions of dollars into dead products like OS2 and the Micro Channel. Why did Japanese Army Generals in conference with the Emperor insist that they could still win the war after the second atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki? People do that kind of thing. There is no accounting for it. There is no explaining it. As Chris used to say, there's none so strange as folks. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:23:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA32711; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199710132110.OAA05140 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:17:45 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7uSbt.0.--7.VweGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Akira! > > A switched electric/electronic circuit is analogous to a bell ringing > once it is struck. There will always be a self resonating frequency (in > lieu of a tuned one) in a circuit as fields build up or down. > But there is no source of energy and no fields in the circuit. There is a frequency only. It is not like a usual resonant circuit where a current is being switched off and a magnetic field is collapsing. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:24:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA32412; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:11:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:11:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199710132110.OAA05197 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:32:32 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_GRsO.0.Gw7.gveGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- > From: Scott Little Hi Scott! > > > I would be interested in anyone's explanation of the waveform shown on > >Jean-louis's website at > > > >http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep62par.htm > > 2 things, Fred. It's sortof implied on the schematic that you're using the > low voltage windings on the xfmr as 1.71 > henrys from the oscillation period and the C of 100nF...seems high for the > low voltage windings. Yes, very high. ?? > > 2. It is a certainty that any contacts, even reed relays, can generate a > few mV. I've observed it many times. I'm not sure what causes it > (thermoelectric?)...but it's there. One thing I would do is close the reed > switch and leave it closed and let the scope take a picture of the > resulting waveform. Does it decay exponentially to zero?...or does it > decay to a DC level equal to the peak voltage of the oscillation?...or does > it not decay at all? It decays to zero. I think Marcelo Puhl got a positive going spike when the switch closed and a negative going spike when it opened (much like the waveform you see at higher frequencies) This would seem to me to imply an inductive effect rather than a thermoelectric one. This being done when the switch was being operated at 70 Hz. Marcelo describes them as "more likely RC spikes" . The same effect has been seen with 3 different transformers, 2 bifilar coils, and 2 toroidal coils, and with reed, FET, and commercial analog IC switching. (combined results of Dave Dameron, Marcelo Puhl, and Jean-louis). Of course, every switch leaks, so this may still not mean anything truly anomalous. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:32:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA32759; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199710132110.OAA05019 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:12:53 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MTsIu.0.m_7.eweGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Hamdi! > > If the voltage induced on the xformer is due to parametric switching, > you could not obtain (same) signals from (A)-(C) when the a reed switch lead is disconnected from xformer lead (mimicking broken read switch). > > You can also monitor the noise level while the circuit is totally stopped, totally unpowered and the proposed test above. I have not heard in so many words that these tests have been done, but I think they have. I will ask. Jean-louis has said to me that he tried a number of arrangements and this one only produced the signal. I don't think that this is a parametric resonance for two reasons: 1) It occurs at f = switching frequency, 2f, 3f,4f, but NOT at f/2, which is the only parametric resonance that is easy to achieve. 2) In a parametric resonance the voltage peaks would be at the switching times, instead these are the zero crossings. > Also shielding the xformer section by faraday cage from rest of the world may help to eliminate a part of the ambient EM fields. The 60/50Hz > hum is very present everywhere, It should be eliminate properly while monitoring mV range signals. You're right, and the possibility that this is EMI is being considered. It is not likely to be causing the effect directly because the effect is the same at different frequencies. At 70 Hz with a reed switch, Marcelo Puhl saw spikes like RC spikes at switch closing and opening. It is possible that the presence of stray voltages in the circuit is being amplified in some way by the switch operation. > > If the parametric effect is effective to convert some non periodic fluctuations to a tuned frequency, it will greatly help to understand the Bipeg circuits proposed by R.R.Stiffler. A parametric circuit does precisely that, but I don't think this is a parametric effect. In theory, there can be no voltage arising in the circuit either because of parametrics or induction. In a parametric effect, equivalent energy must be used to change the inductance as is generated by the change. This comes about because the changed inductance reacts on the source of the energy. And of course there is no induction occuring in the circuit, unless it is in the reed switch itself (but then what about FET switching that shows the same thing?) In reference to a similar experiment done in the thirties where a capacitance rather than an inductance was switched in and out, Mandleshtam and Papaleksi in their paper "Report on Recent Research On Nonlinear Oscillations" say: "W.L. Barrow wrongly assumes that his experiments show the capability for the parametric excitation of an oscillating circuit by periodic variation of its capacitance. He causes the variation of not only the capacitance of an oscillating circuit, but the ohmic resistance of a shunt containing a condenser. Now, the variation of a positive resistance can be carried out (and is carried out) without expenditure of energy. This device therefore does not allow, by its principle alone, supplying to the circuit by mechanical work, of the energy necessary for the excitation and maintenance of oscillations." If the output of the circuit we are discussing is not an artifact, then it is a new result, contrary to previous theory. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 14:54:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA12518; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:41:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:41:34 -0700 Message-ID: <34429541.F02FCB72 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:10:17 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD still running ? Specs please. References: <19971013173404.1b66bc75.in pop3.vossnet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9WpY41.0.M33.CMfGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > as you claimed PMOD is already in selfrunning mode, Not self powered. The original PMOD experiments date back on and off over the last 3 years. My final unit consumed (from my notes) 35mw and put out 78mw. The two voltages were different and the output still noisy. I used transistors, not mosfets. > I would like to ask a few questions: > > 1. For how long did you get it selfrunning in a cloosed loop ? It just works. Like any electronic circuit. Switch it on and presto, you got it. > Is it still running today ? I still have the original breadboard. > What are you powering with it with the 78 mWatts ?Just a resistance or did > you try an LED already ? A resistor. > 2. Does the ferrite core or the coil get cold after running for a while ? Not that I can recall, but I didn't check for that. > 3. Are there any biological side effects, e.g. your cat don´t want to > sit near to it ? Not that I can remember. > 4. Does the output change over time or is it constant 78 mWatts all day and > night long ? Didn't really run it for days & weeks. It worked and I think I have a very good idea why. > Please let us all know. I am. > Thanks again. > > Regards, Stefan. Hi Stephan, The original PMOD was done in a time before Vortex and FreeNrg. I believed that what I had found was not that new or great. Like I have said before, I just put 2 existing ferromagnetic effects that I had known about for many earlier years together and verified that my theory worked. The current effort is to take my notes and produce a simple circuit that ANYONE can duplicate. No frictional losses and critical exit angles as in the SMOT. THe first big secret of the PMOD is to determine the Critical Reaction Time of the domains in the ferrite under test. Every ferrite / coil assy will be different. When we can get a few CRT rigs working, tuning the rep rate of the pulses is the next step. Then we wind another coil (several 100 turns) over the entire length of the rod and use fast Schottky diodes in a full wave bridge to tap the unrestricted and time delayed B field as induced Emf. We need the larger coil to boost the induced voltage (Emf) to overcome the forward voltage drops in the diodes. But ONE step at a time or Jean-Louis will be finished before the rest start. Lets get a few CRT rigs working. They are cheap and easy to build. My set-up exclusive of the scope and variable Psu is around $25 Aust dollars ($20Us). -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 15:07:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA16615; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:57:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:57:14 -0700 Message-ID: <344298A2.CF67E5C2 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:24:42 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: PMOD & Tep References: <971011040048_1276773022 emout18.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WLcNS.0.K34.safGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > > It looks to me like you people are just exciting ringing in resonances > above 10 MHz formed by stray capacitance and inductance. No question that some of these effects exist, but the Ferrite Critical Reaction is real. If we start with a coil wound around a ferrite rod. The ferrite's domains need a real amount of time to start moving in reaction the the coil's initial H field. For a short time, the coil will act as if it were a air core coil. Some 10-50ns later the domains start moving and the coils inductance sharply increases. The PMOD is about causing the domain excitment and stopping the H field just as the domains B field starts to appear. The effect is real and its NOT coil / cap resonance. > Not only does the circuit under test have these stray components, the > oscilloscope itself, even with 10x probe, has capacitance, which gets added > to the circuit. > > Greg Watson wrote: > >I use a 0.1 ohm wire resistor bent into a loop. I gently solder the > coil side of the resistor directly to the earth ring around the tip of > the probe and do likewise to the probe's active tip. > But a loop adds inductance to your current measuring resistor. This > increases its sensitivity to high frequency components of the signal. Correct, but not much from my experiments. What the above setup does do is attempt to, in a simple way eliminate as much crap from the current probe as simply possible. The test setup is designed to be replicated by individuals at home. > It takes great care and testing to eliminate artifacts from experiments > like these. I agree 100%. I think the setup produces acceptable results. Its lets you see the time of the ferrites critical response (how long it takes the domains to start moving) and produce a coil drive pulse to cause phasing between the H and B fields. Thats what it all about. > Michael J. Schaffer Hi Michael, Thanks for the comments. The H to B phasing (delay) is not resonance. Its soild physics. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 15:22:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA20963; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:09:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:09:29 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971013170916.ZM4999 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:09:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Fred Epps" "switching anomaly THANKS" (Oct 13, 4:24pm) References: <199710132112.OAA05870 mail1.halcyon.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, "vortex" Subject: DOUBLE POSTS - ARGHHHH! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"okcsX1.0.K75.MmfGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Please excuse my Monday grumpiness, but for those of us subscribed to multiple lists it would help a great deal if other members wouldn't "cc" several lists when they post messages. There is a mention of this in the rules, but self control is all that is really needed. It really creates a lot of excess mail to sift through for many of us. If the person you are communicating with CHOOSES to subscribe to only one list, there is probably a very good reason he or she is doing that. With some exceptions, most members belong to both lists anyway so the double posts are not needed. My apologies for wasting everyones' time with this, but it is a practice that seems to be increasing in popularity lately. I would rather not have to chose one list or the other due to excessive duplications. Thanks for reading. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 18:21:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA11520; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:00:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:00:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:06:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [off topic] canal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qYL7R.0.np2.UGiGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WHAT IF WE PULLED THE PLUG ON THE PANAMA CANAL? geo: (o/u BIG ISLAND vortex)? South America!?!?! The Big Picture: What if (or WHEN should we) OPEN the panama canal? My wife asked what the good members of vortex-l thought about this, but I said it was off topic. (hence subject header).. [She has a lot of respect for YOUR credentials & reasoning!:] ------(see canal history below)------- There is a 54 foot difference in ocean levels between each end of the canal of this man-made geo dam. I seem to recall the Pacific Ocean is the higher, so flow (until equalized would go west to east). If it didn't equalize. (? geo o/u around South America (island))?? Pumped by spinning earth centrifical force! WHY ask?? I noted in a Hillary Clinton news article (she 'turned a lever?', to allow a Chinese Freighter to pass), Anyway, also noted that the US is returning ownership back to Panama in 1999!! (Whatever WE think about it!) Lots of money$ are already revenued I'm sure, for each passing of a $ship , But, it's (the locks), approaching 100 years old, any repairs will be in the hands of Panama's Economy... so I guess I'm talking about making a new 'gulf-stream' as it were, with us a lot closer to work with it. (under all man's control). ?******** Controlled flooding of the panama canal to save lives? or Natural disaster waiting to happen. ********? Article this date RMN (49A) titled: GEO Quote: "VOLCANOES TIED TO SEA SHIFTS? Changes in sea level encouraged eruptions of island and coastal volcanoes in the Mediterranean during the past 80,000 years, a study suggests. Researchers used a layer of volcanic debris in deep-sea sediments as a guide to when past eruptions occured. Results suggest that the faster sea levels rose or fell, the more explosive the eruptions, said volcano expert W.J. McGuire at the Greig Fester Center for Hazard Reseach at University College London. A drop in sea level might have released pressure on the flanks of these volcanoes by reducing the weight of the water on them, he said. That would give magma a better chance to come out, he said." :END QUOTE hummmm, -- It should be noted the panama canal area is privy to THREE (3)! Geotechtonic plates 1. COCOS Plate, 2. CARIBBEAN Plate, & 3. NAZCA Plate: (with #1&3 being on the Pacific HIGH side!) -- COCOS Plate Hits/Adjoins the Pacific Plate, which with the help of the whole North American Plate PLUS *are Smashing* California at present. (in geo time). Bull's-eye for Pulling a Plug. -- --canal history (from above)-- Quote: The Panama Canal Background Truly one of the great engineering feats of all time, the Canal is an absolute must. 80 kilometers in length, with some of it hewn from solid rock, the Canal gives passage to all types of vessels, from huge tankers to the Queen Elizabeth II. Designed at the turn of the century and operating since 1914. Even by today's standards it is awesome to see a container ship gliding through massive locks and past a rain forest. The French started a canal in 1880 under De Lesseps, builder of the Suez Canal, but after 20 years of struggle with the jungle, disease, financial problems and the sheer enormity of the project, they were forced to give up. In 1903 a Frenchman, acting as ambassador of Panama signed a treaty giving perpetual rights to USA. The French canal company's property was sold for $40M and the digging began. On August 15th, 1914 the US cargo ship "Ancon" made the first transit. Visiting the Panama Canal The Panama canal has 3 sets of locks that take care of raising and lowering the ships 54 feet to the next stage of their journey. These locks are Miraflores and Pedro Miguel on the Pacific side and Gatun Locks on the Atlantic side. Before visiting the Miraflores Locks you better check the transit times of ships by calling the Miraflores Guide Service at phone nr. 252-5463. In Miraflores and Gatun locks there are spectator stands with bilingual commentators describing the operation of the canal while the ship goes through the locks. Plan about half to an entire morning for this visit. It is also possible to book a transit through the canal by calling a travel agency for receptive tourism. The transit takes a few hours and costs $100. SOURCE:: Panama index grimaldo iaehv.nl Last updated June 10, 1995. End Quote:... ================================================== While not a chicken little "the sky is falling", I think the time has come to review the obvious direction of mother natures techtonic plate movement (westwardly in this case, since 200 million years ago) and logically predict that IT WILL OPEN ONE DAY with or *WITHOUT* us. And Lost Stored Potential. There are lot's of Pro's & Con's (I know) and I believe man can intervene just as physically as we first did on it's primary digging. (big job, but bigger results = o/u channel from equatorial (earth bulge) centrifically slung from 9n -> 11n above the equater being forced around Cape Horn?. IT WILL FLOW (duh:) the question is can we do something with it. LOTS of flooding (slowly rising Atlantic), Relief in Pressures!! on the Pacific Ocean side. (Coastal Land FORMED - 'UNflooding?':) Shouldn't excede 27 feet trouble on either side though..(?) Lots of Land considerations, BUT, Do we/Would YOU want to CONTROL IT if you could? (maybe even relieving pressure on Californias Pacific side?) ************** FASTEST RESULTs would be just pull the plug! (pre notification of Atlantic Side residents recommended:).. (or wait for it naturally to occur - (mucho deatho), and let the Pacific flow through and CUT its OWN PATH! mucho topgeographical changes (mucho happy map makers (uphill:):) Envision longitudes of 78w -> 81w wiped out :) = Strait of Americas or the Channel of the Americas - ugh:( ************** SLOWER RESULTs : Open controlled piped/canal flooding west to east... USE FLOW FOR ALL IT'S WORTH (electrical etc .. and you thought the Hoover Dam Potential was BIG -yah?... Build Bridges Under, Through or Over the 'contolled gap' BEFORE it is wetted, using the LAND ITSELF as scaffolding and anchors before putting UNDER water!! :) (Lot's of jobs for Lots of People! :) Saves Big Money too! The Channel of the Americas could STILL have the boats 'Park and Pay', on the sides (I'M SURE), And torpedoing the locks (during wartime) or maintenance of the LOCKS is then solved(?)! Enough for now, Maybe FRED can recommend a few good Books like: "Yellow Fever & the Panama Canal" or "Our Grandfathers said Build it this way OR ELSE!! The history and Scientic studies into the Panama Canal ZONE" or "Why the Earth Spins, AND it's Not Nice to Fool Mother NATURE!" or (future release of) "Oops-"Ekwall's Plug" causes Multi-Volcanos: HAWAII Land Grab On!" He always thought it was 12-14' difference. see chapter on: [] Saving California SLOo.wly (gets 'NO*bell' & 10-life!). Says Castro if he ever comes to Wetted Cuba! [] Saving of Global Warming Flood levels. (levels balance) [] Costa Rica Boats Float South? [] Columbia Boats Float off Northernly. [] Blue Whales Make it Big Hit With Gulf Coast Crowds loving it. [] Happy Fishies? (Big ones eat little ones (eco-balances out:):) [] New species evolve in both major oceans! happy*happy joy*joy [] Military has to much to do (US economy booms) [] Panama is 'Str. of Gibraltar' Player World Player With Global Economy Demands Peace of Passage UN [] Peace in Middle East - Iraq et al.. admits it could've been them. Sueing Panama for piece of the $ pie. [] Panama Becomes a World Supplier of Unlimited Elect.Power: Users Scrambling to 'Get Back on THEIR PIPS Grid- Cheap!' [] Satellites see world temp. equalizing throughout globe. [] Earth takes a breather :) [] .. [] etc.. BTW admittedly, I'm sitting:) mile-high (above sea level:) Denver, but wishing I had some of RICK M's Hawaii beach front :):) $$$ p.s. Looking at the Globe, there is ONE other continent that straddles the equator like this (Africa).. But we would have to remove IRAQ and SYRIA on the North East side to CLOSE the earth-pumping LOOP! darn.. (us.atomicgeo.mil us_gov.mil : listening still -eh?) Thoughts? -=se=- Steve Ekwall : ekwall2 diac.com sent 10.13.97 @ 18:58 MST From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 19:01:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA31737; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:52:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:52:49 -0700 Message-Id: <3442CF70.DD545BC2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:48:32 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Tampere: "Motional Electric Field"? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SR5qq.0.dl7.l1jGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Gnorts - > > On Nils Rognerud's site at http://www.best.com/~rognerud/html/intro.html , > there is a rejected paper that tries to describe induction in a way that > appears to introduce something new or overlooked. I can't tell myself if it > succeeds in this, but I've heard it doesn't. I think this paper has been > discussed here before, so my apologies if this is just another retread. [snip] > If anyone interested has any comments or knows any important flaws in the > paper above, please post. For instance, is there really an unshieldable > field created? Does anyone *really* understand what happens in and around > conductors during induction? First, I encountered a contradiction on the paper: On section 2, he wrote: "In the equilibrium state, the observer in the reference frame of the moving rod will not feel any forces due to electric fields, either Es or Em. This conclusion has some profound effects on our experiments. For example, one can not connect a voltmeter to the moving rod (that is stationary with respect to the rod) and expect to see a motional electric potential, Em. All wires of the voltmeter and the voltmeter itself will be equally polarized, in a manner similar to the rod. Und erstanding this concept is important, as it may be one of the fundamental reasons why the motional electric field often goes undetected." Ok, This may be acceptable. If his theory necessitate such a unobservable EMF caused by a simple movement of a conductor inside a magnetic field(*) This is not contradicting with the experiment. But on section 3, at "Two Moving Magnets Experiment" he wrot e: "We notice that the induced electrical field is twice that from a single magnet, while the sum of B is remarkably - zero. This experiment is easy to setup and verify in any electronics laboratory with a pair of magnets, a wire and a voltmeter. In fact , you may wrap the conductor, in an electrostatic or magnetic shielding, and find the same result." If the proposed experiment is a superposition of two field which comply the conditions stated on section 2, how such a EMF could be detected? Is it a contradiction? ((*) Assuming a magnetic field form a frame of reference) Second, I don't know a model to describe a moving magnetic field. When a magnetic field is supposed to move? Or, can an uniform magnetic field constitute a frame of reference? Is there any method to measure the velocity and direction of movement of a mag netic field? Is the source of a magnetic field constitute the frame of reference and its field should be supposed at rest to its source? My decision is there is NO SUCH A THING AS MOVING MAGNETIC FIELD or a conductor moving relative to a (uniform) magnetic field. All inductions can be explained by the simple principle "Flux change trough a loop cause an EMF along the loop. This can be by the increasing or decreasing the flux it self, or by the changing the surface enclosed by the loop by any mean. Of course, if the proposed "Two Moving Magnets Experiment" could give non zero EMF, the classical induction principle is proved insufficient to explain such effects. Again, I am not against to new EM theories which postulate vector potentials and scalar p otentials instead of fields and feel this is the correct way for the modern EM theories, but I need a correct experiment proposal which necessitate a new EM theory. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 19:44:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA14821; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:30:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:30:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:29:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199710140229.TAA20901 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: [off topic] canal Resent-Message-ID: <"n1oCO3.0.Dd3.cajGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >WHAT IF WE PULLED THE PLUG ON THE PANAMA CANAL? >geo: (o/u BIG ISLAND vortex)? South America!?!?! > >The Big Picture: > >What if (or WHEN should we) OPEN the panama canal? My wife >asked what the good members of vortex-l thought about this, >but I said it was off topic. (hence subject header).. >[She has a lot of respect for YOUR credentials & reasoning!:] > >------(see canal history below)------- >There is a 54 foot difference in ocean levels between each end >of the canal of this man-made geo dam. I seem to recall the Pacific >Ocean is the higher, so flow (until equalized would go west to east). >If it didn't equalize. (? geo o/u around South America (island))?? >Pumped by spinning earth centrifical force! > Continuous flow of water, great source of energy. The original source of energy, though, is I think, the sun. The sun is converting vast amounts of matter into energy according to today's "wisdom". I think that matter consists of standing waves, and if this model is correct, them the "mass to energy conversion", is in reality, confined aether to free aether **emission**. Thus, there must exist a flow of aether out of the sun, and a periodicity associated with any solar energy production variability. To see what I am saying, just consider the earth like a piece of kelp in an ocean of aether, with waves of that aether propogating past with an 80 minute periodicity from the 160 minute solar acoustic waves. As the earth rotates, that time divides 9 times into the earth day, and so there are nodes that develop on the earth's surface. These nodes, I think, are driving not only the water around the surface to "pool" up, but as well, plate tectonics as the earths crust slides like huge floating rafts being driven toward the nodes. So in essence, the energy driving the earth comes directly from the sun, IMO. Here are some images (the bottom three) of some surface waves you can see from space. I think these are again the same phenomena at a much smaller scale. ie, this is not a pooling of the water, but just some of the wave launching effect of the same phenomena; http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/CAMPAIGN_DOCS/OCDST/shuttle_oceanography_web/oss_7 0.html Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 01:21:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA19217; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:57:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:57:36 -0700 Message-ID: <34431FF7.33E466E2 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:02:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD FCR circuit mod Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P0lqJ1.0.7i4.kNoGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I am placing a SBYV27-150 between the coil and fet to stop the fet's conduction during the off state. The diode is rated at max 15ns turnoff / 150v. You can determine if you are having this problem by observing the fet's source to drain voltage. If it stays low after the fet drive pulse, the fet (its internal protection diode) as got itself in a knot. Usually snubbers are used to eliminate this efect, but they will also slow down the current rise / drop and really effect the H to B field phasing that we are chasing -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 05:15:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id FAA30696; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:10:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:10:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: More on NHE calorimetry. CF in a Thermistor? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:04:26 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd899$51f15e60$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD867.2C347E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"e6zqC.0.XV7.C5sGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD867.2C347E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jed Wrote: > >Lots of things can go wrong in an experiment. A wet thermistor will = produce a >bogus reading. > Interesting. The ceramic-like structure of the thermistor, usually a mix = of manganese oxides-nickel oxides and occasionally some cobalt oxides, = etc., if hit with water, especially water containing the alkali = hydroxides-carbonates might actually generate Hydrinos and create it's = own heat. :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD867.2C347E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jed Wrote:
> 
>Lots of things can go wrong in = an=20 experiment. A wet thermistor will produce a >bogus = reading.
>
Interesting. The ceramic-like = structure of the=20 thermistor, usually a mix of manganese oxides-nickel oxides and = occasionally=20 some cobalt oxides, etc., if hit with water, especially water containing = the=20 alkali hydroxides-carbonates might actually generate Hydrinos and create = it's=20 own heat.    :-)
 
Regards,        =20 Frederick
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD867.2C347E00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 06:49:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA21970; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:42:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:42:38 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971014094029_-2046343322 emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] canal Resent-Message-ID: <"MLvf22.0.AN5.CRtGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 97-10-13 21:16:40 EDT, you write: << There is a 54 foot difference in ocean levels between each end of the canal of this man-made geo dam. >> mmm....Steve, man-made geo dam? The dam was there a long time before man showed up to dig the ditch. Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 07:14:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA27560; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:55:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:51:43 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Schneider, EPRI Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710140954_MC2-23D8-A86E compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"gwP2v3.0.Rk6.XdtGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex In a paroxysm of confusion and misinformation, rmforall quoted Bob Sullivan who quoted Tom Schneider, of EPRI. Sullivan claims this quote comes from a report: Where do these efforts stand today? In my personal opinion, the overall finding is negative; that is, no verifiable evidence exists for nuclear effects consistent with the claimed 'excess heat' measurements. . . . This is not from a report, and it was not published by EPRI. It is from a book: N. Hoffman, "A Dialogue on Chemically Induced Nuclear Effects -- a Guide for the Perplexed About Cold Fusion," American Nuclear Society (ANS), 1995 Schneider's remarks cannot be construed as an official EPRI evaluation of the EPRI/SRI research because the book does not say a word about that research. In fact, it does discuss any excess heat findings, from any researcher. I do not see how anyone can call this a "conclusion" about a body of research which is never mentioned anywhere in the book. Schneider and Hoffman do not attack the EPRI/SRI excess heat and autoradiographs, they pretend these things do not exist. There is an actual official EPRI publication about the SRI work. It is: McKubre, M. C. H., et al., Development of Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals, EPRI TR-104195, Research Project 3170-01, August 1994. Here is some of the main conclusions from that report, from the introduction: EPRI PERSPECTIVE This work confirms the claims of Fleischmann, Pons, and Hawkins of the production of excess heat in deuterium-loaded palladium cathodes at levels too large for chemical transformation. However, the phenomena were obtained in only about half the cells. From the conditions of loading, initiation time, and current density on the successful observations of excess heat, it is understood why the phenomena are so difficult to attain . . . Although nuclear reaction products commensurate with the excess heat have not yet been observed, small but definite evidence of nuclear reactions have been detected at levels some 40 orders of magnitude greater than predicted by conventional nuclear theory. . . . We do not claim to have examined all possible sources of systematic error in our calorimetry. However, highly instrumented and monitored experiments, using calorimeters of considerably different design and principle, have resulted in qualitatively and quantitatively similar results, i.e., apparent excess heat bursts outside the standard deviation of the random errors by factors up to 50. For more information about the Hoffman book, see my review in "Infinite Energy" #3. I review the EPRI report in issue #11. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 07:34:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA03810; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:24:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:24:40 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: chaopysc list.uvm.edu CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:23:11 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Brain on FM (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"xOEVj2.0.Qx.d2uGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: *** Forwarded message, originally written by nova wclynx.com on 13-Oct-97 *** Brain works like FM radio, study finds WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The brain works much like an FM radio when it interprets touch, Israeli scientists reported Monday. They said tests on rats showed brain cells use a kind of frequency modulation -- the same method used by FM radio signals. ``We found that certain circuits in the brain work on the same principle as an FM radio,'' Ehud Ahissar of the Weizmann Institute in Rehovot said in a statement. ``We hope that our study will contribute to the deciphering of the neural code, the way in which information is encoded by the sensory organs and decoded by the brain.'' Radio waves carry information in two ways. Frequency modulation (FM) involves changing the frequency with which radio waves oscillate, while amplitude modulation (AM) changes the height of the waves. Radio sets interpret these small changes, which can carry the information that we hear as music or speech. Similarly, the brain contains cells that oscillate at certain frequencies. Ahissar's team said they found the brain uses these cells as a yardstick to help it interpret the timing of incoming signals. Writing in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, which is based in Washington, they gave as an example a finger rubbing a piece of corduroy. Each ridge is a set distance from the next; the thinner and closer the ridges, the more frequent the signal. Nerve endings in the finger send that signal to the brain. ``The timing of the sensory signals appears to be an inherent part of the sensory code,'' Ahissar said. ``In fact, this timing contains so much information about the external world that it would be surprising if the brain made no use of it.'' Testing rats, Ahissar's team found their whiskers -- an important sensory organ for rats -- twitched at a frequency of about 8 motions per second or 8 Hertz (Hz). When they touch something, additional signals are triggered that modulate that 8 Hz signal. These signals are sent to the oscillating brain cells. ``The brains of primates contain similar oscillating cells, which are tuned to the characteristic frequencies generated when the fingertips rub against an external object,'' Ahissar said. They are now testing to see if the brain uses similar methods to decode visual input. ^REUTERS On 14-Oct-97, Reid Smith wrote: > Thanks maz.. Just confirms what I thought. The brain is like >a function generator that receives and transmits. It kinda oscillates >on one signal and that's the carrier. When it receives the nerves >put out a frequency on that carrier that is sent back to the brain. >When it transmits it puts a frequency on the carrier to go to the >muscles,etc. I'd say there are many different frequencies for the >different parts of the body. > I'd almost bet that it has the capability of phase shifting. Where >if one signal is coming in and it needs to be blocked it can send >a phase shifted signal to cancel. Kinda like it is receiving a positive >off set wave at 1khz and it can send a negative offset back at 1khz to >block. >Reid I think what you might be trying to say here, Reid, is that neurons act like, or are, _superregenerative oscillator/detectors_. But, in the brain, they act as little `correlation engines'; reacting to (quenching on) past and present information. This negative resistance kind of oscillator/detector is capable of reacting to amplitude modulation (AM) and frequency modulation (FM) simultaneously. These billions of little `correlation engines' "talk" to each other in this fashion; thus, reacting to phase and amplitude at the same time. It's one of the oldest circuits us old ham dudes used to play with, as kids. These little reactance or parametric amplifiers are usually `pumped' at some higher frequency. Our little neurons are pumped by God :) Ooooh, the flames are stoking..... -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 07:35:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id HAA07394; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971014102943.00a215d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:29:43 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [off topic] canal Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UDGhN.0.Qp1.n3uGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:06 PM 10/13/97 -0600, Steve Ekwall wrote: >WHAT IF WE PULLED THE PLUG ON THE PANAMA CANAL? >geo: (o/u BIG ISLAND vortex)? South America!?!?! Sounds like you don't understand how the Panama Canal works. Building the Panama Canal involved cutting through hills, adding locks, then adding dams so that the interior of Panama flooded to become Gatun Lake. The water flows from the lake through the locks into one or the other ocean. If you left the locks open, the lake would drain, but the Pacific would not pour into the Atlantic. Second, the Pacific Ocean is normally higher than the Atlantic at Panama, but not by 54 feet. I think it ranges up to 17 feet, but the average is much lower. Now down to the "Roaring Forties," the area between 40 and 50 degrees South latitude. Here the tides have free reign, and blow the land around--look at tip of South America and the corresponding peninsula on Antartica. If you closed this gap up, days would become shorter as the motion of the water was transferred to the Earth as a whole. You could probably draw several Terawatts from the current without making a dent in it. (Well, astronomers might notice the effect on the Moon's orbit after a few decades.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 07:47:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA05423; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:28:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:28:25 -0700 Message-ID: <344374A7.71C1 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:33:27 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Schneider, EPRI References: <199710140954_MC2-23D8-A86E compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2fPEP1.0.QK1.66uGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Thank you for the correction about the EPRI report-- just what I wanted to hear. I will lift it and put it on sci.physics.fusion. Rich Murrray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 08:20:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA19680; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:13:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:13:24 -0700 Message-Id: <344385EC.84922E7B verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:47:08 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 4 inch disk arrived References: <971013165511_-1059444642 emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v1nbn.0.Op4.JmuGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > > A 4 inch superconductive disk arrived today from Supercondeuctive Components. > I will be conducting some more energy experiments within 30 days. Are these gravitational or OU experiments? (I cant figure an other kind of experiments. Physics = Antigravity + Overunity + Cold fusion + Matter/Universe theories! :-)) Would you give more information about the experiments that you plan? Did read/hear the South Carolina University gravitational like beam generation from RF exited SC material? (If not, see my posting of last week.) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 10:54:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA00863; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:40:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:40:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:34:38 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Schneider, EPRI Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710141338_MC2-23DC-DEF9 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Svc5C1.0.PD.NwwGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Rich writes: Jed, Thank you for the correction about the EPRI report-- just what I wanted to hear. I will lift it and put it on sci.physics.fusion. No need! In one of my rare cameo appearances on s.p.f. I posted it there myself this morning. It occurs to me that this text might also appear in some official EPRI report, just as Sullivan says. Schneider wrote this for the book, but he may have recycled the text somewhere else. I don't suppose Sullivan bought the book, so maybe he got this somewhere else. I know that Schneider wrote this for the book because there was a big fight within EPRI about it. Schneider leads the anti-CF clique at EPRI, which has successfully eliminated all research there. The pro-CF people fought him and finally persuaded him to tone down his original draft, and to add words like "I think" instead of categorically stating that cold fusion does not exist. After the book was printed, the pro-CF people also prevailed upon Schneider & Hoffman to add a small sheet of paper with this comical addendum, very much against their will: Comments were made in this text that the work performed by SRI INTERNATIONAL was difficult to examine in detail because that lab was reticent to share experimental details of a potentially profitable field of research. This experimental secrecy was partially lifted by the following Report to EPRI: McKubre, M. C. H., et al., 'Development of Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metals,' TR-104195, Research Project 3170-01, Final Report, August 1994." I described this in my review of the book. This is a good example Schneider & Hoffman's duplicity. Most of the contents of that were was revealed in a series of peer-reviewed papers, lectures and conference papers starting in 1990. McKubre lectures at MIT and publishes in the Journal of Analytical Chemistry, and these people accuse him of hiding his research! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 11:10:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA21494; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710141756.MAA14992 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: re: A switching anomaly? To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: fepps halcyon.com Cc: aki ix.netcom.com Resent-Message-ID: <"tOrEz2.0.eF5.5AxGq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 14, 1997 Fred, Looked at the referenced website this time. The cause of the waveform may be the display of available stray magnetic/electric fields picked up and influencing the circuit. The values of the 'influence' changes with the action of the reed switch. If the circuit is magnetically / electrostatically shielded, then the 'anolomy should disappear. If not, well now, who knows? With a millimicroammeter, or for that matter, any sensitive audio preamp with an open input wire will show large fields present with a meter deflection (even dc) or a hum. Particularly with a live body close by. Haven't tried it with a dead one yet. :) -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 12:02:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA25053; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:48:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:53:06 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] canal In-Reply-To: <971014094029_-2046343322 emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yoYQk1.0.L76.wvxGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 VCockeram aol.com wrote: >><< There is a 54 foot difference in ocean levels between each end >> of the canal of this man-made geo dam. >> >> >>mmm....Steve, man-made geo dam? The dam was there a long time before man >>showed up to dig the ditch. >>Vince >>Las Vegas You're right Vince, That didn't come at right did it? Looking at it two or three times now I can't make it work. How about man-made (locks) dam up this geo flow. Hope you get the idea.. Sorry about that :) -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 12:49:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06103; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:33:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:33:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:39:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] canal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971014102943.00a215d0 spectre.mitre.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6nWaZ2.0.AV1.VayGq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >> >>>WHAT IF WE PULLED THE PLUG ON THE PANAMA CANAL? >>>geo: (o/u BIG ISLAND vortex)? South America!?!?! >> >> Sounds like you don't understand how the Panama Canal works. Building >>the Panama Canal involved cutting through hills, adding locks, then adding >>dams so that the interior of Panama flooded to become Gatun Lake. The >>water flows from the lake through the locks into one or the other ocean. >>If you left the locks open, the lake would drain, but the Pacific would not >>pour into the Atlantic. >> >> Robert I. Eachus Robert, You're right, 54 or 17 or 12 or even 1 foot difference was assumed by me to flow. Looks like Gatun Lake is Fresh Water Feed by the Ciri River on the only map I have of 1" = 100 kilometers, so I don't see any smaller tributaries... (I assumed it was Salty (or at least Brackish) with both ends open to the sea) Ciri River must be some feeder river! Didn't know that Gatun was HIGHER then both Oceans. ------- But, say the canel was 100' deeper (water-lever) than either Ocean, and there was *only a 1' difference*, How could the Pacific NOT pour/flow into the Atlantic?? ------- Thanks.. ps. I got the 54 feet from the attached home paged that was sourced in the original (panama background) message... I always thought it was 12-14 feet myself. ------- Was just thinking, if we scooped out that area (bigger dynamite these days) we could get Aircraft Carriers side by side passing through. -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 15:38:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA28343; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:25:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:25:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:32 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Hybrid automobile Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710141710_MC2-23E4-A0A6 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"cQnsA.0.hw6.j5_Gq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex An AP article says that Toyota has begun selling the first mass produced hybid gasoline - electric automobile. I discussed this in earlier messages, and cited a recent New York Times article that described the upcoming product. The AP says: Toyota Motor Corp. rolled out the world's first gasoline-electric hybrid car Tuesday, promising double the mileage of gasoline engines and half the tailpipe emissions. The car is only being sold in Japan, but Toyota President Hiroshi Okuda said the company would consider selling it in the United States after six months. All major automakers, including Detroit's Big Three, are working on some type of hybrid. It's about time. As I said before, this idea has been kicking around since the time of the First World War. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 16:10:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA17498; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3443F997.5C348420 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:30:39 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"r4sYM1.0.HH4.Nd_Gq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Austin wrote: > > Instead of checking with an oscilloscope to know the parameters of the ferrite (in order to tweak the pulse length etc.), couldn't you just rectify and then measure the output from a secondary and tweak for maximum output by adjusting pulse width and re petition rate for maximum output? This would eliminate having to know anything ahead of time about the ferrite characteristics. It would be easy and not even require a scope! > > Richard Austin -- email: richarda icx.net -- radio: KG7SU > Check out the Institute for Planetary Renewal at http://user.icx.net/~richarda Hi Richard, Excellent idea. Will check it out. Guess I am just a step by step kind of guy. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 16:11:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id PAA06767; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:57:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3443F83D.BD7D84FA microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:24:54 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 References: <199710140609.XAA03737 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971014070529.0069b7e0@palacenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fUpVt3.0.af1.NZ_Gq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jack DeMule wrote: > > Hi PMOD folk, > > As I sit here in my freezing room, because I haven't > turned the heat on yet..no free energy...:) > I've observed..... > > No effort was made to select the _smallest_ mosfet > that would support the current and voltage required > (with due regard to on resistance.) This is important > for reduction of the parasitic capacitance and (when > fast transition times are desired) reduction in the > gate drive requirements. The IRF510 I am using has just that and specs out at 20ns on and 20ns off. By samples do better than that. > The effect of the miller capacitance was apparently > neglected in arriving at the gate drive requirements. > Also, its generally a good practice to require about 7-8V > minimum as gate drive, but I'd use a minimum supply voltage > of 12-18V. Since the voltage an exponential function... The four 74AC244 gates do an excellent job of driving the IRF510 gate. It would be nice to have a higher drive voltage, but the very high source / sink capability of the 74AC244 makes up for it. Ther are designed to drive data and address busses very quickly. > If you want a drive circuit that really, really, works... > use a tiny mosfet totem pole, say, an IRF110 and IRFD110, > driven by a CD4049B (all of it's inverters in parallel.) I believe the 74AC244's are superior. I just 4 in parallel. > Unless you are driving mosfets in parallel, a gate resistor > is unnecessary and it's actually detrimental in obtaining fast > transition times. Correct. > My belief is that the initial non-inductive current spike is > due to charging the parasitic capacitance of the coil > _and it's environment_, not magnetic domain inertia. > But as always, that's just my interpretation of the data...I > could be wrong. The initial current pulse does have elements of coil cap charge in there, no doubt about it. But with the domains in the rod unaligned, the coil will, in the first 10-50ns, not sense the ferrite rod and will act as a air coil with very little inductance. As the current ramp is related to the inductance, you will get a very quick initial current ramp, partly due to the low inductance of the coil and partly due to the coils capacitance (I wind the coil with a wire diameter spacing to reduce coil capacitance). As the domains start to align, their aligning domains start generating a B field which will induce a back Emf into the coil and drive the current down to zero and below. The area of interest here is the time it takes for the back Emf to appear and drive the current negative. The Ferrite Critical Reaction Time is that time from the initial current rise until the current starts being driven down negative. That effect is the domain reaction time and we need to set the coil drive width to that time. We want the coil current to stop as the domains start delivering a B field. That way we can trap the B field in another coil and extract energy from the aligning and still moving domains avalanches. ALL ferrites have a upper frequency limit. Its in any data book or the examples on my site. The H to B field phasing is also a real effect and any text on interference suppression will talk about the "Loss Angle" which is also related to frequency. > Best Regards, > JD Hi Jack, I hope you find the above usefull. Soungs like you have some design experience. Any more ideas as to how to reduce coil capacitance? I am reducing my coil to 10 turns to check out the effect of reduced coil cap and increased current ramp due to a smaller initial inductance. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 16:41:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA18718; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:32:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:32:32 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971014163220_-394136549 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] canal Resent-Message-ID: <"pwOSH2.0.Ha4.E40Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-10-14 15:01:18 EDT, you write: << How about man-made (locks) dam up this geo flow >> Again, Steve, this wont work unless you can figure a way to make water run uphill for free. The largest length of the canal is *above* mean sea level. (atlantic and pacific) Thats what the locks are there for, to lift ships up to the main canal level at either end, not to prevent ocean tidal flow through the canal. I suggest you query one of the many search engines on the net for details. Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 17:24:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA20487; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:18:35 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971014201802_1632884611 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 4 inch disk arrived Resent-Message-ID: <"gbuaW2.0.105.Ol0Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi I am conducting some energy experiments. I'm going to keep quiet about what I am doing for a while. I expect good results but I have been let down before. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 19:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04670; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:30:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:30:16 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34442AAD.4434 math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:30:05 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More on NHE calorimetry References: <199710131706_MC2-23BD-6F15 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eVvMJ1.0.o81.sg2Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Martin was not shocked to hear about the entrainment problem. > ... Somehow or other, for some reason, instead of adding 2 ml, > the NHE added 4. Martin pointed out this error > many times, but they persisted ... [at NHE] some people may fill them > too high. (By "some people" I mean that special class of people > who forget Faraday's law and ignore repeated urgent advice from a > world-class electrochemist.) You do a good job at presenting Fleischman's comments, but one must remember they are only one side of the story---whereas you present them as the presumed fact, thus demonstrating the gross incompetency of the NHE work. Personally, whenever anyone claims that intelligent and well educated researchers are making gross, ridiculous errors, especially in spite of the best efforts to correct them, I expect we are getting a misrepresentation of what truly occured. I think we would do well to apply the dictum that to as a first approximation, consider the worst that each group has to say about the other....i.e., NHE probably screwed up some experiments, and Pons and F. probably did as well. Refinement of this position will only come by further mutual attempts to replicate. The main question I would have for F. is: after P&F's 12 years of research, where is their demonstration that their effect is real? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 20:56:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA02571; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:49:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971014165609_2100573087 emout15.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little's K2CO3-H2O-Ni Cell Resent-Message-ID: <"UtDT2.0.2e.0r3Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, It sounds like a closed cell. Is it? How do you clean the nickel Fibrex cathode? By the way, you're right that Mills doesn't think that loading is important. Mills postulates a surface reaction that requires dissociating the H2 molecule into single-atom hydrogen, which is something that nickel can do. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 22:03:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id VAA05341; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:48:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:48:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:48:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710150448.XAA11864 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little's K2CO3-H2O-Ni Cell Resent-Message-ID: <"_BIJu1.0.HJ1.Zi4Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:48 PM 10/14/97 -0400, Tom S wrote: >It sounds like a closed cell. Is it? Yes. recombination is accomplished with little Pd-coated catalyst pellets from J-M. I do have a tube that leads from the cell out to my gas volume measuring apparatus so I can see if the recombiner is working. It worked great on this run....no gas escaped from the tube. >How do you clean the nickel Fibrex cathode? I didn't! I received it in a plastic bag from a friend and I handled it with gloves only....but I don't know its condition at all. Any suggestions for cleaning it? Do you know if cleaning is critical? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 22:04:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA09366; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:51:45 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Merriman comments on NHE calorimetry Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Message-ID: <199710150054_MC2-23EC-2B9 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Giqy-3.0.DI2.3p4Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: You do a good job at presenting Fleischman's comments, but one must remember they are only one side of the story---whereas you present them as the presumed fact, thus demonstrating the gross incompetency of the NHE work. I do not take Fleischmann's word for it. I have heard very similar information and corroboration from other people who have worked with the NHE and people inside that organization. I do not think this is a reflection of gross incompetence. I think it is incompetence mixed with politics and greed. I never take anyone's word for anything, not even Martin's. I demand written proof and corroboration. The NHE's own reports and their statements in the Yomiuri are all the evidence anyone needs to judge their competence. You can judge their ethics too, without any help from me. They have given us a classic demonstration of science by press conference. They launched an unfounded attack on the reputation of a distinguished scientist, and they did not even have the guts to warn him in advance. Personally, whenever anyone claims that intelligent and well educated researchers are making gross, ridiculous errors, especially in spite of the best efforts to correct them, I expect we are getting a misrepresentation of what truly occurred. History is chock full of examples of intelligent and well educated experts who made gross, ridiculous, incredible, and often fatal errors. Famous examples include the Titanic disaster, the Battle of the Marne, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the Challenger explosion, Chernobyl, the hot fusion program, the Japanese breeder reactor program . . . You can find a hundreds more examples in the newspapers. I mentioned IBM's mismarketing of OS2 and the Micro Channel. Some of the best computer scientists who ever lived, including Von Neumann and Seymour Cray, made stupid mistakes. This is not the end of history. People will continue to make mistakes. Experts will continue to ignore warning signs that people outside the field instantly recognize. Bridges will fall, buildings will collapse. At this moment, one of the largest U.S. railroads has misplaced hundreds of rail cars. It is taking weeks to ship goods that are scheduled to arrive in a single day, including shipments of perishables and tanks of liquid gas that evaporate long before they arrive. Some cars are going back and forth to the wrong address 10 or 15 times. Hundreds of millions of dollars are being lost in this fiasco; thousands of businesses are being disrupted, angered, and driven into bankruptcy. The main reason experts make these terrible mistakes is because they are ignorant of history. They do not read books outside their specialties. They do not even know the history of their own field. They do not think carefully about what they read in the newspapers. They think that "intelligent and well educated researchers" do not make "gross, ridiculous errors" -- which is like thinking that it does not snow in Winter and children never forget to tie their shoes. If Barry continues to ignore history and human nature, and he goes on pretending that experts never goof, he may join their ranks and accidently blow up a rocket or waste $5 billion on a breeder reactor that produces electricity ten times more expensive than any other generator. I have made some fairly colossal mistakes myself, losing tens of thousands of dollars at a stroke and angering hundreds of customers, but at least I have never tried to convince myself that such things never happen, or that I could never be as stupid as Seymour Cray. I think we would do well to apply the dictum that to as a first approximation, consider the worst that each group has to say about the other....i.e., NHE probably screwed up some experiments, and Pons and F. probably did as well. Pons and Fleischmann did screw up many experiments. It took them five years to learn to do this. Martin has told me quite a lot about his own mistakes over the years. He warned the NHE to avoid these mistakes. Unfortunately, they did not listen. The main question I would have for F. is: after P&F's 12 years of research, where is their demonstration that their effect is real? You do not need to ask Martin that question. I can answer it. In science, we do not demand that a researcher demonstrate that his own discovery is real. Instead, we demand repeated, independent, high sigma replication by other scientists. Indeed, even when a scientist demonstrates his own effect, we do not believe it -- and we should not. Pons and Fleischmann demonstrated the boil-off in 1992. They showed a video which constituted visual proof that CF excess heat is real. Close examination of the anode, cathode, and cell configuration told you everything you need to be sure there is massive excess heat. You did not need the instrument readings. (Of course, the data is even better proof.) However, neither I nor anyone else would be convinced by this video. We demand independent tests by other scientists, using other types of calorimeters in other labs. That is the gold standard of proof. We got it in late 1989 and 1990, from Bockris, Miles, McKubre, Mizuno, and in the accidental replications at MIT, Harwell, and Cal Tech. Nothing is more convincing that a positive result produced accidentally by people who despise cold fusion and who will say or do anything to destroy it. Later, we got additional proof of tritium F. Will at the National Institute, Claytor and others. In other words, the proof that Barry demands was published seven years ago. I sent him copies of some of the papers. He has refused to comment on them, and I expect he will continue to refuse to comment on them. He demands "proof," but he refuses to look at the proof! He ignores the scientific method which is based upon INDEPENDENT REPLICATION, and HIGH S/N RATIO. He wants show business instead. Naturally, if Pons and Fleischmann performed such a demonstration again, Barry would do a back flip and join the scientists who complain about grandstanding demonstrations. You should have heard the howling back in 1992 when they showed the video! When we mail Barry papers describing rock solid replications, he demands a demonstration instead. When we give him a demonstration, he will suddenly remember how science is supposed to work and he will demand replications instead. It is a fixed game of Three Card Monte. I cannot win, and I refuse to play anymore. The rules will never cease to change, the goalposts will be always be moved. The only thing that will convince Barry and other professional scientists will be the commercial development of cold fusion and the demise of the DoE and the hot fusion program. Barry does not think that professional scientists can make repeated stupid mistakes. He does not think they can go for years ignoring data and adding 4 ml of water when they are supposed to add 2 ml. Yet the history of cold fusion is littered with equally stupid errors. The people at Cal Tech arbitrarily dismissed a 1 deg C temperature rise. Kevin Wolf saw a massive transmutation in his cathode: the appearance of radioactive elements. This was confirmed by some of the best labs in California. Instead of associating this with similar cold fusion phenomena, he made up a fairy tale about WIMP particles from space. Barry should examine his own standards and behavior. He refuses to look at the data I mailed him. He said recently that we should judge Pons and Fleischmann by the commercial success or failure of cold fusion, instead of looking at objective scientific data. Why should it surprise him that the NHE scientists and his hot-fusion colleague Ikegami also make unscientific blunders? Everyone does. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 22:15:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA11243; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:00:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:00:19 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199710141756.MAA14992 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> References: Conversation <199710141756.MAA14992 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> with last message <199710141756.MAA14992@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Akira Kawasaki" , "Vortex" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Fred Epps" Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 97 17:04:24 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vDMT31.0.al2.Xt4Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Akira, Yes, it is clear now that the waveform is due to stray capacitance of the switches used. Oh, well... ---------- > > October 14, 1997 > > Fred, > > Looked at the referenced website this time. The cause of the waveform > may be the display of available stray magnetic/electric fields picked > up and influencing the circuit. The values of the 'influence' changes > with the action of the reed switch. If the circuit is magnetically / > electrostatically shielded, then the 'anolomy should disappear. If not, > well now, who knows? > > With a millimicroammeter, or for that matter, any sensitive audio > preamp with an open input wire will show large fields present with a > meter deflection (even dc) or a hum. Particularly with a live body > close by. Haven't tried it with a dead one yet. :) > > -ak- > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 22:21:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA11002; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:13:18 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015011143_2000401030 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: An interesting patent (?) Resent-Message-ID: <"ixAb5.0.qh2.h35Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, You will find an interesting device at : http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4074153 Look at the drawing figures.......interesting,.....this remind me something.... Sincerely, ( This mail has been sent at 05h11 GMT on 15 october 97 ) Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ 4074153 : Magnetic propulsion device ------------------------------------------------------------------------ INVENTORS:Baker ABSTRACT: A magnetic propulsion device which provides a magnetic field in which a permanently magnetized conveyor element is caused to have translatory motion as a unitary body. Operation of the device does not depend on induced magnetism in the moving element or in the production of the field which provides the propelling force for the element, such field being produced as by permanent magnets independently thereof. In several forms of the invention the permanent magnet element is suspended by repulsion forces and simultaneously propelled by attraction forces along a passage within the field. The magnetic elements producing the field are variously arranged to provide the propulsion as by lining the passage with magnetic strips of alternating polarity to produce repulsion and attraction forces of differing degree on the moving element or with magnetic members of a single polarity to produce a continuously increasing field of attraction for the element which is propelled thereby. In still another embodiment the permanent magnet element is mounted on a wheel which is turned as a result of the interaction of flux produced by the element and that produced independently thereof along an arcuate passage through which the element is propelled on the wheel as it is driven in rotation thereby. In whatever form the invention may take, which as presently contemplated may be manifold, it is to be noted that the moving element is in each case a permanently magnetized member, the physical nature of which affords the invention numerous applications in the useful arts, and the field providing its propulsion is primarily produced entirely independently thereof. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 23:09:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA31072; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:53:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:53:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:58:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] canal In-Reply-To: <971014163220_-394136549 emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"O6UtX3.0.Lb7.2f5Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 VCockeram aol.com wrote: >>Again, Steve, this wont work unless you can figure a way to make water run >>uphill for free. The largest length of the canal is *above* mean sea level. >>(atlantic and pacific) Let's get rid of the *above* anything. Man Vince, your a hard one :) .. I thought 'unplug' would mate the minds out there... OK try this .. Take ALL the nukes we have in the US & ALL the nukes they have in Russia.. Placing them carefully/stratigically in the right places and UNPLUG /Evaporate the isthmese(sp) of Panama..(we both need a place to get rid of them anyway..;) Boom IT'S GONE. .. In other words remove out (controled Blasting) the geo-terrain, NOW invision a 'Gap' scooped out of the two americas there about 1mile deep + and 20 miles + wide (the zone is "UNplugged!").. Actually the orignal proposal was for a sea-level canal, not a lift-canal...America followed the Frenchman on that one. ---BIG PICTURE___looking at your home GLobe there, what if you scoop'd out a 1/4" of it's surface across the canal with your finger?? --------- You didn't answer my 1' difference, so extend the above dimension as deep and as far across as needed.. THEN what would the flow be at the canal? --- All in all, your right, it IS a "lift of ~85 feet to the lake." Genius design. The post though was referencing removing ALL geo barriers.. Entire Panama Canal Zone (if needed). Not a lake feeding lift, but an un-plugging 1-20 miles wide and at least a mile or more deep (rem. the subs) to loosen the tectonic plate pressure on California. ---End BIG PICTURE___ I said it was a big endeavor on post 1, heck, we didn't even blow away the bikinii Islands testing nukes..I didn't have answer to speak of, just was wondering what if's : (there IS a height difference) and it is caused by the Sun, size of the ocean, aether, earth spin. IT MUST FLOW! -=se=- ps.. the original diggings (dams,locks.lakes) are quite a monument already for turn of the century efforts.. the only ones to loose would be the US. the only ones to gain would be us. pss look only at the panama canal ZONE on a map and ERASE it.. then imagine it's sea-level+(X+) feet DEEPer. (think Austrialia on the equator) finally, Ross Tessien points out soliton waves POWER this West to East! the PUMP effect can be seen at " http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/CAMPAIGN_DOCS/OCDST/shuttle_oceanography_web/oss_70.html " I call it the 'effect' (for this canal thread), but I think Ross would call it the SUN's soliton energy is the pump. ok. [last three photos most relevant, taken over Str. of Gibraltar] Best to you & yours -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 23:25:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA03236; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:10:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:10:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710150609.XAA06489 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: An interesting patent (?) Resent-Message-ID: <"fTqxx3.0.Qo.-u5Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean-Louis, At 01:12 AM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi All, > >You will find an interesting device at : > >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4074153 > >Look at the drawing figures.......interesting,.....this remind me >something.... Yes, interesting seeing grandpa SMOT! It brings back fond memories! Best Regards, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 00:05:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA20401; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:00:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:00:42 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:06:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merriman comments on NHE calorimetry In-Reply-To: <199710150054_MC2-23EC-2B9 compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"chyxo1.0.b-4.Pe6Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: >>Barry Merriman writes: >>- Jed >>..Barry.. >>Quality Research I normally wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.. (way to ignorant on this end = me:) But, you're so FAR from each other you've 'CLOSED THE LOOP' to where (from an outside observer(me/us!) You remind me of two sword-fighters butt to butt - facing the enemy :) ----- I hope you both stay with the list and live long (and type morrrre). ----- You Guy's are IT! ----- "They are ill discoverers that think there is no land when they see nothing but sea." -- Francis Bacon live long -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 00:19:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA22451; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:06:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:06:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:12:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: An interesting patent (?) In-Reply-To: <971015011143_2000401030 emout02.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7LPmj.0.iU5.Dk6Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 15 Oct 1997 JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >>You will find an interesting device at : >>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4074153 Looks like Smot1 LESS (Greg's) DROP & Bluehole?? right??? -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 01:35:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA07029; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:26:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:26:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:23:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Barry Merriman Message-Id: <199710150823.BAA03956 joshua.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merriman comments on NHE calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"EgEls3.0.lj1.7v7Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As usual, I'm not going to debate you, and I am amused by your typical strawman debating tactics wherein you try to imply that (a) I don't believe in the experimental basis of science and (b) I believe experts cannot make mistakes. I presume most people on this forum are intelligent enough to see through your logic. However, in your zeal you seemed to have missed my points which were (a) yes experts do screw up often, but if you listen to *their* side of the story you will usually find they had their own good reason for proceeding as they did, erroneous though it may have turned out to be. And (b) I agree it is not incumbant on or possible for P&F to "prove" CF is real all by themselves. However, it would help the field quite a bit if they would define a replicatable experiment for others to pursue, and moreover, I thought they were working on improving the process for the past 7 years or so---so what do they have to show for it? Nothing that impressive, apparently. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 03:54:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00392; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 03:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 03:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Firing Clay Cubes Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 04:45:14 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd957$6bc9ca20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD925.46AB9AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"jqCOv.0.w5.c0AHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD925.46AB9AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: Vortex I figured while Barry (a fourth-fith generation Hot Fusion advocate and = the greatest thing to hit San Diego since El Nino) and Jed (a first = generation Cold Fusion advocate and the greatest thing to hit Atlanta = since Sherman) are doing battle, I'm gonna pursue firing some clay "cubes" with "fire wire" imbedded in = them for CF related o-u effects. With all of the ceramic kilns around and some pretty good expertise in = using them (the thought of turning a gift shop into a Cold Fusion = research lab was too much for one lady who is a Tom Beardon fan, to pass = up) :-) I have some sample cubes using Kaolin clay being fired. Getting the proper Zeolite-Molecular Sieve clay is going to take some = looking and collaboration with Dr. David Love, a Geochemist at the New = Mexico "School of Mines" at Socorro, New Mexico. David is quite = interested in the *possible* CF-Hydrino thing and a possible connection to a "potassium anomaly" in = some local volcanic clay minerals. With around 25% pore volume, a few hundred meter^2/gram surface area and = a milliequivalent/gram cation exchange capacity, it might get = interesting. After that the big job is going to be getting Scott to run some = calorimeter experiments on them to see if they are producing = "hydrino-electrino" heat. :-) Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD925.46AB9AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To: Vortex
 
I figured while Barry (a fourth-fith = generation=20 Hot Fusion advocate and the greatest thing to hit San Diego since El = Nino) and=20 Jed (a first generation Cold Fusion advocate and the greatest thing to hit Atlanta since Sherman) are doing=20 battle,
I'm gonna pursue firing some clay=20 "cubes" with "fire wire" imbedded in = them
for CF related o-u = effects.
 
With all of the ceramic kilns around = and some=20 pretty good expertise in using them  (the thought of turning a gift = shop=20 into a Cold Fusion research lab = was too much=20 for one lady who is a Tom Beardon fan, to pass up)  :-)  I = have some=20 sample cubes using Kaolin clay = being=20 fired.
 
Getting  the proper = Zeolite-Molecular Sieve=20 clay is going to take some looking and collaboration with Dr. David = Love, a=20 Geochemist at the New Mexico "School of Mines" at Socorro, New = Mexico.=20 David is quite interested in the *possible*
CF-Hydrino thing and a possible = connection to a=20 "potassium anomaly" in some
local volcanic clay = minerals.
 
With around 25% pore volume, a few hundred = meter^2/gram=20 surface area and a milliequivalent/gram cation exchange capacity, it = might get=20 interesting.
 
After that the big job is going to = be getting=20 Scott to run some calorimeter experiments on them to see if they are = producing=20 "hydrino-electrino" heat.  :-)
 
Regards,      =20 Frederick
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD925.46AB9AC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 06:34:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06917; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:19:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:19:15 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Does Palladium-Hydrogen Really Mean Squat? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:12:57 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcd96c$0ec63f60$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD939.EFF97E80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zte9F1.0.sh1.HBCHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD939.EFF97E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: Vortex In the "wet" CF cells that use an alkali metal (M+) cation , Li, Na, K, = Rb, and Cs against a Palladium cathode, the Alkali-Oxygen-Palladium "Salts" M2PdO3 = or such can form over time. Simularly with Nickel the "Nickelate" = compound, M2NiO3 can form on a a Nickel cathode. The palladium and nickel are primarily used for cathodes because of = their low "solubility" into the electrolyte. On the other hand when the alkali (M) = reacts with H2O at the cathode, M + H2O in a path =3D MH + OH, the hydroxyl = radical could participate in forming the "metalate" on the cathode = surface and possibly release the "nascent" hydrogen radical in the process. Given the "aging time" for this to occur, (the nickelates or palladiates = would be quite water soluble) does the hydrogen loading have any bearing = on the heat effects, or is it just an "artifact" of the time required = for the Palladiates or Nickelates to form on the cathodes? Would the = platinate compound be any better or worse? Regards, Frederick ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD939.EFF97E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To: Vortex
 
In the "wet" CF cells that = use an=20 alkali metal (M+) cation , Li, Na, K, Rb, and Cs
against a Palladium cathode, the=20 Alkali-Oxygen-Palladium "Salts"  M2PdO3 or such can form = over=20 time. Simularly with Nickel the "Nickelate" compound,=20 M2NiO3
can form on a a Nickel = cathode.
 
The palladium and nickel are primarily used for = cathodes=20 because of their low
"solubility" into the electrolyte. On the = other hand=20 when the alkali (M) reacts with
H2O at the cathode, M + H2O  in a path  = =3D MH + OH,=20 the hydroxyl radical could participate in forming the = "metalate" on=20 the cathode surface and possibly release 
the "nascent" hydrogen radical in the=20 process.
 
Given the "aging time" for = this to=20 occur, (the nickelates or palladiates would be quite water soluble) does = the=20 hydrogen loading have any bearing on the heat effects, or is it just an=20 "artifact" of the time required for the Palladiates or Nickelates to form on the cathodes? Would = the=20 platinate compound be any better or worse?
 
Regards,    Frederick
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCD939.EFF97E80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 06:55:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA15347; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:46:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:46:57 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:31:29 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [off topic] Railroad mess Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710150934_MC2-23F9-929D compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"7JnlK1.0.gl3.GbCHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I mentioned a fiasco in rail transportation that has been going on for the past few months. It is occurring on the Union Pacific line. It was described in: A. Mathews, "An Unsolved Mystery: Where Are Shippers' Rail Cars?," Wall Street Journal, October 13, 1997, p. B1 One shipment from Houston to Fort Worth Texas took 51 days. The problems are caused by a merger, downsizing and incompatible software. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 07:01:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA15323; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:46:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:46:54 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:31:47 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Merriman comments on NHE calorimetry Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710150934_MC2-23F9-929E compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"H8i_4.0.Hl3.CbCHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex As usual, I'm not going to debate you, and I am amused by your typical strawman debating tactics wherein you try to imply that (a) I don't believe in the experimental basis of science . . . This is not a "straw man." You said that Pons and Fleischmann should be judged by commercial sales, and yesterday you said they should demonstrate their effect. Both statements directly contradict the experimental basis of science. Do you retract? (b) I believe experts cannot make mistakes. You wrote: "whenever anyone claims that intelligent and well educated researchers are making gross, ridiculous errors . . . I expect we are getting a misrepresentation of what truly occurred." If that does not mean "experts don't make mistakes" then what on earth *does* it mean? Explain yourself! Where have I misunderstood? I presume most people on this forum are intelligent enough to see through your logic. Well, I fail to see through *your* logic. I think your statement "whenever anyone claims . . . we are getting a misrepresentation" equals: "experts don't screw up." If that isn't what you mean then please explain so that "most people" will understand. However, in your zeal you seemed to have missed my points which were (a) yes experts do screw up often, but if you listen to *their* side of the story you will usually find they had their own good reason for proceeding as they did, erroneous though it may have turned out to be. That has not been my experience in life. I have been involved in business fiascos including bankruptcies, failed products and the like. When I talked to the people responsible for these mistakes, and listened to "their side of the story" I never found they have a good reason for proceeding as they did. They acted out of stupidity, greed, inexperience, fear, and motives I do not understand. One of my best friends was an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army who trained to be a kamikaze pilot. He is a sensible fellow and an excellent scientist, but in 1945 he and his fellow soldiers did not have a good reason for proceeding as they did. Frankly, I think they were crazy. He thinks they were brainwashed by criminal propaganda. People often act strangely for bad reasons or no reason at all. And (b) I agree it is not incumbant on or possible for P&F to "prove" CF is real all by themselves. However, it would help the field quite a bit if they would define a replicatable experiment for others to pursue . . . They have done so. Others refuse to do the experiment, because of greed, politics, potential market share, patent conflicts, jealousy, et cetera, ad nauseam. They do not want to buy the right material from Johnson-Matthey, they want to make it themselves. Kennel say that isoperabolic calorimetry is "the pits." He means: "I know better than Fleischmann, I will do it my own way, even though Fleischmann and McKubre warn me that flow calorimeter will prevent the reaction." People often think they know better than the experts. They hate to follow advice. Get a book on aviation and look at the unflyable French airplanes built between 1903 and 1908. Remember: those people thought they were replicating the Wright brothers. Some did not bother with chambered wings because they thought was an unimportant frill, and flat wings will do just as well. The French AEC replicated Pons and Fleischmann successfully because commissioner Lonchampt knows how to listen and learn. . . . and moreover, I thought they were working on improving the process for the past 7 years or so---so what do they have to show for it? Nothing that impressive, apparently. The 1992 boil-offs were very impressive, to those who have the eyes to see. Today's continuous boiling cells produce thousands of times more energy than the best Tokamak reactors. You generate ten MJ, they generate ten thousand MJ. That's astonishing. These cells are so impressive that if you and your colleagues looked at them, and you understood what you see, you would fold up your operation, get out of the fusion business, and give back the half-billion dollars of taxpayer's money you get every year for your toys. Pons and Fleischmann beat the pants off of you years ago. Your response is sour grapes and head-in-the-sand denial. You refuse to look at the evidence. You will not read the scientific papers. You invent new ways to judge a scientific question: commercial sales or demonstrations or what-have-you -- anything to avoid an objective judgement based on replicated high sigma data! You and the other hot fusion scientists cannot admit that you lost this race years ago. You remind me of the mainframe computer designers back in 1979 who refused to look at my TRS-80 microcomputer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 07:19:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA12364; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015090918_-1093447159 emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Fleischmann & Arata? Resent-Message-ID: <"hR2Ty2.0.613.tmCHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Did Martin Fleischmann have anything to say about Arata's work? Have they ever been in touch? It seems to me that Arata & Zhang have produced some of the best results in the field. I'm surprised that the NHE people didn't try to use all their connections in the Japanese government and scientific establishment in a full-court press attempt at catching Arata's interest and persuading him to cooperate with them. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 07:20:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20107; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:03:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:03:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:31:19 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: D. Morrison in Sci. Am. Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710150934_MC2-23F9-929C compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"gYxq12.0.vv4.KqCHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex This month's Scientific American features a loony-toon attack against cold fusion by Douglas Morrison. It is a double book review of "Connected Knowledge" and "Yes, We Have No Neutrons." The title of the review is: D. Morrison, "Bad Science, Bad Education," Scientific American, November 1997, p. 114 - 118 The only happy news is that Morrison has retired from CERN. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 08:40:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11545; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:19:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:19:31 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709291918.MAA10159 mail1.halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:39:59 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: To Frank Roed and Frank Earl (Thornson drive) Resent-Message-ID: <"tWjjb3.0.Iq2.1yDHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >By the way, have you noticed how many people on the lists have names that >start with FR? > > >Frank Roed >Frank Earl >Frank Stenger >Frank Roarty >Fred Sparber You forgot Frank Znidarsic, a most valuable and reliable source of information on free as well as non-free energy. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 08:50:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22017; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:32:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3443F83D.BD7D84FA microtronics.com.au> References: <199710140609.XAA03737 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971014070529.0069b7e0 palacenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:36:17 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"27P6h2.0.uN5.B8EHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> My belief is that the initial non-inductive current spike is >> due to charging the parasitic capacitance of the coil >> _and it's environment_, not magnetic domain inertia. >> But as always, that's just my interpretation of the data...I >> could be wrong. > >The initial current pulse does have elements of coil cap charge in >there, no doubt about it. But with the domains in the rod unaligned, >the coil will, in the first 10-50ns, not sense the ferrite rod and >will act as a air coil with very little inductance. As the current >ramp is related to the inductance, you will get a very quick initial >current ramp, partly due to the low inductance of the coil and partly >due to the coils capacitance................... I think someone ought to remove the ferrite and check what the coil and stray capacitance do alone. Also, put in a dielectric piece where the ferrite normally goes. (Ferrites have a dielectric constant.) Then you can at least begin to separate ferrite effects from circuit artifacts. Does anyone know what a typical ferrite dielectric constant is? It can be measured simply in an hour if one has a slab or other simple shape of ferrite to work with. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 10:05:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02217; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:39:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:39:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199710151640.JAA16949 hercules.rdyne.bna.boeing.com> From: "Scudder, Henry J." To: Scott Little Cc: Vortex-L Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:38:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"A0tIR1.0.XY.s6FHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott I think the effect come from a difference in the Fermi levels of the reed contacts. Any situation where dissimilar metals are in contact has a potential difference in that range. It is the same cause that models a semiconductor diode as a battery of 0.7 volts in series with an ideal diode. Hank ---------- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 6:25AM At 02:48 10/13/97 -0700, Fred Epps wrote: > I would be interested in anyone's explanation of the waveform shown on >Jean-louis's website at > >http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/tep62par.htm 2 things, Fred. It's sortof implied on the schematic that you're using the low voltage windings on the xfmr as the L....but I calculate an L of 1.71 henrys from the oscillation period and the C of 100nF...seems high for the low voltage windings. 2. It is a certainty that any contacts, even reed relays, can generate a few mV. I've observed it many times. I'm not sure what causes it (thermoelectric?)...but it's there. One thing I would do is close the reed switch and leave it closed and let the scope take a picture of the resulting waveform. Does it decay exponentially to zero?...or does it decay to a DC level equal to the peak voltage of the oscillation?...or does it not decay at all? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 10:27:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14744; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:11:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:11:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199710151712.KAA17718 hercules.rdyne.bna.boeing.com> From: "Scudder, Henry J." To: Fred Epps Cc: Vortex-L Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:10:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"tNWtT3.0.Hc3.jaFHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred If you live in a civilized area, with radio and TV stations, You get all sorts of energy into any circuit that is not very carefully protected by sheilding. Try this experiment. Take an oscilloscope, and connect a clip lead about a foot long to the input terminals. Connect the clip lead to the ground terminal. Then put the scope on AC, and set the scale to the lowest possible, usuall 5mv or so. I bet you will see a waveform in the Mhertz region. In Boston, I measured 1.2 V one time open circuit with this setup. Hank ---------- From: Fred Epps To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A switching anomaly? Date: Monday, October 13, 1997 2:17PM Hi Akira! > > A switched electric/electronic circuit is analogous to a bell ringing > once it is struck. There will always be a self resonating frequency (in > lieu of a tuned one) in a circuit as fields build up or down. > But there is no source of energy and no fields in the circuit. There is a frequency only. It is not like a usual resonant circuit where a current is being switched off and a magnetic field is collapsing. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 10:31:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07112; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:54:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:54:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:53:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199710151653.JAA30828 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: [off topic] canal Resent-Message-ID: <"jiBvT2.0._k1.lKFHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Aren't you guys finished yet??##$%? :-) If you blast a channel at sea level, or dig a tunnel or whatever, you will have huge tidal surges that pass through. You could tap that energy with generators and produce a huge amount of energy. Whether my soliton notions is correct or not doesn't change this. There is a time lag for the tidal surges moving around the globe so the water elevation on one side will be different than on the other side, therefore you have head of water, therefore you can produce energy due to the flow of that water. It is very simple. Actually, you could pump water up and over the mountains, and then back down into the other ocean where you attach a generator (we do this in S. California with the California aquaduct to get over the Tehachapis.). The energy generator at the bottom is transmitted back over the hill to power the pumps. The problem is, though, that for the ocean, the head will not be enough to overcome the energy losses in the pump and generator (maybe use some superconductive ones ;-) just kidding, the thermal losses would bite you! Any way, tapping into the power of ocean tidal or wave surges is nothing new. So is everybody happy now? Energy can definitely be produced. The fact that you have a huge volume of water to tap (despite low head) means that you can produce vast amounts of energy limited by the power of the earth moon interaction and the tidal response. Heck, if you really want to do it, just head over to San Francisco Bay and drop some generators on the bottom to pinwheel in the tides passing through the Golden Gate. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 10:40:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21715; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:27:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:27:59 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971015132624.006b1a64 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:26:24 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 In-Reply-To: References: <3443F83D.BD7D84FA microtronics.com.au> <199710140609.XAA03737 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971014070529.0069b7e0 palacenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ljffL.0.1J5.SqFHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: These are freq dependant. Crowloy 20 has a relative dielectric permittivity (real component) of 35,400 at 100 Hz, dropping to 480 by 100,000 Hz. This is at 25C. Ferramic A has a value of 9.82 at a kiloHz remaining constant to about a gigaHz. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) At 08:36 AM 10/15/97 -0800, you wrote: >>> My belief is that the initial non-inductive current spike is >>> due to charging the parasitic capacitance of the coil >>> _and it's environment_, not magnetic domain inertia. >>> But as always, that's just my interpretation of the data...I >>> could be wrong. >> >>The initial current pulse does have elements of coil cap charge in >>there, no doubt about it. But with the domains in the rod unaligned, >>the coil will, in the first 10-50ns, not sense the ferrite rod and >>will act as a air coil with very little inductance. As the current >>ramp is related to the inductance, you will get a very quick initial >>current ramp, partly due to the low inductance of the coil and partly >>due to the coils capacitance................... > > I think someone ought to remove the ferrite and check what the coil and >stray capacitance do alone. Also, put in a dielectric piece where the >ferrite normally goes. (Ferrites have a dielectric constant.) Then you can >at least begin to separate ferrite effects from circuit artifacts. > > Does anyone know what a typical ferrite dielectric constant is? It can >be measured simply in an hour if one has a slab or other simple shape of >ferrite to work with. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 11:18:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05009; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:08:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:08:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:06 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Cole-Palmer good, Omega bad Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710151406_MC2-23FF-E32 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jaAuT3.0.BE1.TQGHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Everyone I know has trouble with constant temperature coolers and pumps, which are often built into the same machine. They cost a lot money and they often break. I think Gene has a collection of two or junked ones. I just got some valuable advice from Ed Storms about this. He recommends one from Cole-Palmer. It costs $2,500, it holds the temperature to within +/- 0.01 deg C, and it has been working like a champ. He had a lot of trouble with the Omega cooler. Omega stuff is expensive, too. Martin Fleischmann suggested we use an ice water bath instead of a cooler. This saves money and it is reliable. You need a large, thick-walled Dewar between the cell and the bath water to keep the cell temperature high. I am afraid ice water might cause problems with condensation. In another note, Ed worries about the build up of dried salts above the water line in an isoperibolic cell. This will gradually insulate the cell a tiny bit. It will increase the heat transfer coefficient and it might make you think you have a tiny level of excess heat. I suggested this would cause drift in one direction, so if you see the heat come and go; the cell sometimes returns to the calibration point, and you see the build-up of salts has not been washed off, you know this is not a problem. P&F got around this problem by using a half-silvered cell with a clear-glass window at the bottom, below the water line. Nearly all of the heat lost from the cell goes out through this window, so changes in the waterline and the upper walls of the cell make no difference. I would add that a tiny level of excess heat is unconvincing and useless. You can always find a reason to doubt it. Ed is getting about 1.2 watts excess, with 12 watts input, which is pretty respectable. I do not think that a build-up of salts could produce this, especially since it is fluctuationg, but he is going to do some tests to be sure. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 11:19:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05988; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:10:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:10:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:06:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710151806.NAA05649 dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: "Excess energy" patents To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: 76570.2270 compuserve.com Resent-Message-ID: <"C9p4C3.0.KT1.3SGHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 15, 1997 Gene, you fowarded CETI's patent abstract, part of which reads: >Patent Number 5,672,259 >Abstract > >"An electrolytic cell, system and method far producing excess heat for >use and for ---" I would take the claims and descriptions made in the abstract of the patent are accepted as part and parcel of the granted patent by the Patent Office. Is the Patent Office now accepting claims of excess energy for the 'cold fusion' process? Or is everybody playing with words? I have seen another recent patent granted to sonoluminescence's Putterman make a similar claim in their abstract. It was referenced to me by an friend. And if 'excess energy' is accepted by the Patent Office, then what of earlier applications rejected? -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 11:20:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04346; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:07:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:07:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:18 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Fleischmann & Arata? Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710151406_MC2-23FF-E35 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jLKg21.0.i31.TPGHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Tom Stolper asks if Fleischmann had anything to say about Arata, and have they been in contact. Sorry, I do not recall the subject came up. I have reviewed my notes . . . The only thing he said about helium that I recall, is that you need a kilowatt level reaction before you can get around the contamination problem. People will always say it is contamination until you produce helium in higher concentration than air, which is 5 ppm helium. Strictly speaking, helium is proportional to energy, not power. Theoretically you can build up to a high concentration with a tenth-watt reaction in a perfectly leak-proof flask. In real life you need high power compared to the electrolysis gas flow, and you need to build up the concentration in a reasonable length of time. Tom adds: It seems to me that Arata & Zhang have produced some of the best results in the field. Well, it looks good, although much of the helium detection is over my head. I reserve judgement until someone replicates. The problem is that the experiment is difficult and expensive and Arata is secretive, so I doubt anyone will ever try to replicate. I'm surprised that the NHE people didn't try to use all their connections in the Japanese government and scientific establishment in a full-court press attempt at catching Arata's interest and persuading him to cooperate with them. He is a difficult man too work with. He is hard to persuade, the NHE isn't good at persuading, and by now it has nothing to offer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 14:39:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10712; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:17:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:17:43 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971015132624.006b1a64 world.std.com> References: <3443F83D.BD7D84FA microtronics.com.au> <199710140609.XAA03737 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971014070529.0069b7e0 palacenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:20:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"mXLKS1.0.5d2.rBJHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Crowloy 20 has a relative dielectric permittivity (real component) >of 35,400 at 100 Hz, dropping to 480 by 100,000 Hz. [snip] > Ferramic A has a value of 9.82 at a kiloHz remaining constant to about >a gigaHz. With such large dielectric constants, I think PMODers have to be concerned about capacitive effects in their experiments. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 16:15:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08763; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:08:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:08:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199710152307.TAA14287 bort.mv.net> Subject: Re: "Excess energy" patents Date: Wed, 15 Oct 97 19:14:47 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" , "VORTEX" cc: <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"ax9S42.0.i82.epKHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Is the Patent Office now accepting claims of excess >energy for the 'cold fusion' process? Or is everybody playing with >words? I have seen another recent patent granted to sonoluminescence's >Putterman make a similar claim in their abstract. It was referenced to >me by an friend. And if 'excess energy' is accepted by the Patent >Office, then what of earlier applications rejected? Not in general, but CETI has a high score rate for getting excess energy claims through -- the older CETI patents document excess as well, if you examine them. As for the part of the USPTO rejecting CF claims such as by P&F and others, this office is guility of criminal fraud. The perpetrators will be dealt with -- ultimately by severe legal actions. Internal sources in the USPTO have mentioned to me the possible need for an FBI investigation based on statements by known fraud perpetrators. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 19:38:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07090; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:23:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:23:21 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:24:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Speed of X-rays through superconductor Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <7536445B90 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"Mx8Gc2.0.Sk1.NgNHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts all! I was thinking the other day about the speed of light and the following problem came up. Since the speed of light through a substance is 1/ sqrt(permitivity times permiability), what would the speed of light be through a superconductor? Since the superconductor is a perfect diamagnet, the permiability is zero, and since no potential can exist accross a superconductor, the permitivity is infinite! This gives a totally undefined result for the speed of light. I suppose that the superconductor would act as a perfect antenna for low frequencies of light, but X-rays should penetrate. The question is then -- at what speed should they propagate through the superconductor? Slower than c? Faster? I have heard that in the Casimir effect, the speed of light is increased perpendicular to the conducting plates. If the speed of light is slower inside the superconductors, but faster between superconducting plates, would it be possible to rig up a series of parallel plates and have the average velocity from one end of the series to the other be faster than c? Anyone care to take a guess (or better) at this one? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 20:50:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12735; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:27:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:27:26 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971014201802_1632884611 emout03.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:52:05 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: 4 inch disk arrived Resent-Message-ID: <"EE1S9.0.q63.ScOHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hamdi > >I am conducting some energy experiments. I'm going to keep quiet about what >I am doing for a while. I expect good results but I have been let down >before. > >Frank Z Frank - Is your disc a torus or a solid disc? Please let us know how you are doing at least, even if you can't go into all the details. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 22:28:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29342; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:18:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:18:20 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:21:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710160421.XAA08519 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Speed of X-rays through superconductor Resent-Message-ID: <"23rG21.0.3A7.PEQHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:24 PM 10/15/97 -0800, Jay wrote: >substance is 1/ sqrt(permitivity times permiability), what would the >speed of light be through a superconductor? They're opaque to visible light. And mostly opaque to radio waves, too. Like metals. To x-rays, I bet the superconductivity is totally immaterial. The interaction between x-rays and matter has little or nothing to do with whether or not conduction band electrons can move perfectly freely or not. Scott Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 23:23:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08914; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:08:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:08:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:37:21 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: John Schnurer cc: vortex Subject: Re: Hal Puthoff Question: Ken Shoulders' Patent number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Lzd171.0.xA2.dzQHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, John Schnurer wrote: Hi John! Try: http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/patents.html This points to one of them. I think there are four or five others. If "shoulders" doesn't come up on the IBM patent search page, try "Jupiter Toy", Shoulders' company. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 23:57:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01576; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:15:49 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016021117_999906426 emout16.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"0b8sB2.0.UO.G4RHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, The following is from a post by Professor John Farrell on the Nickel / light water experiments. This is just the 'tips' part of the post. If you want the entire post, I will be happy to send it. Vince Las Vegas Nevada ========================================================= TIPS ON REPEATING THE EXPERIMENT 1. Use normal water, H2O not D2O, unless you are looking for tritum or neutrons. Essentially all of the heat is **NOT** caused by fusion but by some other physical process--namely shrinkage of hydrogen atoms from the N=1 state to the N=1/2 state. (I know this is hard to believe, particularly for someone like me who has taught quantum chemistry for 25 years, but life **is** stranger than fiction.) 2. Ni foil or wire can be used. The Ni should be clean. Handle the Ni with cotton or plastic gloves. Do **not** clean the Ni nitric acid or organic solvents. 3. About 0.6 M K2CO3 is best. Lower and higher concentrations work but not as well. 4. Use a current density of 1 ma/cm2 with a foil or 2 ma/cm2 with a wire. Most researchers are using current densities that are **too high**. The object is to form H atoms on the surface of the NiHx. These H atoms then can undergo a catalytic shrinkage in the presence of K+ (or other suitable ion). If a high current density is used the H atoms are forced off the surface. (The Ni does not enter into the reaction, it simply is a surface on which the H atoms can form.) 5.It is important to electropolish the Ni cathode before beginning the calorimetry. That is, run the electrolysis (preferably in the calorimetry cell) for about half an hour to an hour with the Ni as the anode and the Pt as the cathode. OTHER POSSIBLE SYSTEMS Thousands of other systems are possible. Unfortunately, most of these are ions or ion combinations that are difficult or impossibe to make. We have tried many of the chemically reasonable ones and the K+ system works best. PD2+/Li+ works, but not as well. Note PD2+, not PD metal. We believe that to the extant that PD/Li+ works, it is PD2+ on or near the surface of the PD that is the active species. Rb+ works but not as well. Li+, Na+, Cs+ do not work. Ti2+ does work. Here again to the extent that Ti/D2 gives neutrons, we believe that the active species is Ti2+. (Whenever neutrons are given off, enormous amounts of heat are given off as well. The heat does not come from fusion itself but from shrinkage of the H atoms or D atoms to a size sufficiently small that fusion can occur.) John Farrell Franklin & Marshall College From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 15 23:57:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA31223; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:49:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:49:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710160649.XAA23460 germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"w0Pen1.0.ad7.dZRHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:12 AM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >Scott, >The following is from a post by Professor John Farrell on the Nickel / light >water experiments. This is just the 'tips' part of the post. If you want the >entire post, I will be happy to send it. > >Vince >Las Vegas Nevada >========================================================= Yes, I would like to see the entire post. Thanks, Michael From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 00:50:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19498; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:40:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:40:41 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015195709_1100464411 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] canal Resent-Message-ID: <"Yeg7K3.0.Wm4.tJSHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-10-15 02:09:06 EDT, you write: >>snip<< << Take ALL the nukes >> >>snip<< Ok Steve, I get your point. Agreed, there would be flow. There is probably a way to harness it too. But... wow...nukes...! I can hear the protests on that already Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 02:42:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA17344; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:34:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:34:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3445EBA7.5E7A mediacity.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:25:43 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Olson CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Speed of X-rays through superconductor References: <7536445B90 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rEiT82.0.vE4.e-THq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for your posting. I have quite a number of superluminal velocity (astrophysical and solid state) references cited in my 1995 RAPR superluminal physics issue. It is posted on the Web at: [http://www.mediacity.com/~muse/rapr.html] Millennium From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 05:18:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA09343; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:12:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:12:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:04:49 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: William Beaty cc: vortex Subject: Thanks: Hal Puthoff Question: Ken Shoulders' Patent number In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vJwwg3.0.oH2.-IWHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And vortex tells me I cannot post.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 05:53:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA16480; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:46:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:46:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:46:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710161246.HAA00273 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"-ta0v1.0.Q14.ZoWHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:12 AM 10/16/97 -0400, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >The following is from a post by Professor John Farrell on the Nickel / light >water experiments. This is just the 'tips' part of the post. If you want the >entire post, I will be happy to send it. Thanks a lot Vince. All that stuff will go into the next run. BTW, I've already heard the low current density suggestion from Dennis Cravens....but it wasn't THAT low. I'm going to need a BIG cathode in order to get up to a watt or two. Let's see, the cell voltage is typically 3 volts so each cm^2 will take 3 milliwatts....330 cm^2!!! Does anybody know what the surface area of Ni Fibrex is per square centimeter of sheet? > Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 06:33:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25159; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:28:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:28:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971016081324.006b6fd0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:13:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... In-Reply-To: <971016021117_999906426 emout16.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-Avsz2.0.y86.PQXHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:12 10/16/97 -0400, Vince posted from Farrell: >2. Ni foil or wire can be used. The Ni should be clean. Handle the Ni with >cotton or plastic gloves. Do **not** clean the Ni nitric acid or organic >solvents. So I should use soap....acids other than nitric? BTW Vince, where did you find this post of Farrell's? I've spoken to him on the phone before...I didn't know he was on any Internet news or discussion groups. Thanks, Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 07:45:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23415; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971016104206.00ab5360 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:42:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19971015132624.006b1a64 world.std.com> <3443F83D.BD7D84FA microtronics.com.au> <199710140609.XAA03737 norway.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.1.32.19971014070529.0069b7e0 palacenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ABEvU1.0.nj5.FRYHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:20 PM 10/15/97 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >With such large dielectric constants, I think PMODers have to be concerned >about capacitive effects in their experiments. My first suggestion is to measure current instead of voltage in experiments like this as much as possible. That is a comment from experience--you can build (or buy) a current sensing probe that is much less sensitive to noise than any voltage probe. Second, if you are doing what you think you are doing--and I have done the equivalent in experiments where overunity was not the objective--the voltage and current waveforms are going to be totally decoupled. You have to measure watts, either instantaneous or averaged. (And if you think it is easy, think again.) Last but not least, gate capacitance measurements for ICs, transistors, and especially SCRs (silicon controlled rectifiers) lie big time. It is not that the vendors are trying to lie to you, it is that the thing that most people want to know has nothing to do with the measurement that concerns you. They are trying to tell you how much current must be drawn externally to switch the circut, and this is usually much less than the effective capacitance WHILE the gate is in the middle of switching. For some SCRs, I've measured a ratio of over 1000 to 1 between the two numbers. In an SCR this is important, because you need to design your circuts to suppress the RFI both during turn on and turn off. You have the same situation here--lots of energy stored in that gate when it is open, and it shows up as effective capacitance. One last comment. If you really are sweating the measurements, I've had great success using tri-ax cable, grounding the inner shield, and letting the outer coax layer float unconnected at both ends. You can do the same trick with coax, but not nearly as well. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 08:09:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA28018; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:58:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:58:56 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016105610_-1260766483 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Ken Shoulders Patents Resent-Message-ID: <"0nhjj1.0.Sr6.ikYHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ken's patents are: 5,018,180; 5,054,046; 5,054,047; 5,123,039; 5,148,461; 5,153,901; 5,208,844 Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 08:23:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA31523; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:04:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:04:16 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016110201_-1394530902 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com Subject: SUPERCONDUCTIVITY, BAND GAPS, and COLD FUISON Resent-Message-ID: <"7EIxd2.0.2i7.lpYHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott I believe that you are correct. The Marshall group is still shooting in the dark. I have not told them what I am doing because I want to be the first to patent, demonstrate, and publish. A more interesting experiment would be to bounce alpha particles off of the surface of a superconductor. At large back angles the alphas bounce directy off of the coulombic wall of the nucleus. In a material with infinite electrical permittivity will the coulombic potential barrier be reduced? I believe it is, no voltage gradient can exist within a superconductor. That's why applying pressure to a superconductor induces nuclear change. NEED THEORETICAL HELP! We need to better understant the mechanism of superconductivity within a cold fuion electrode. The way I understand it is that high temp superconductors have a "band gap" or forbidden zone at the Fermi energy level. Electrons below the Fermi level are kicked up. These electrons pair with opposite spin electrons to reduce their energy levels. This process results in superconductivity. The larger the band gap the more energy that is assciated with the electron pairs and the higher the temp of the superconductor. In a cold fusion electrode a sea of hydrogen electrons exists. This electron sea may have a wavelength of evanescence that corresponds to an energy level of a few electron volts. A man made "band gap" may exist, at the evanscent wavelength of this electron sea, near the Fermi energy level. This band gap could be the source of the high temp superconductivity at work with cold fusion electrodes. I did not take sold state yet and and can't prove this. What do you think? Can you work the problem? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 08:39:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04311; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:21:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:21:46 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016111758_1444919347 emout08.mail.aol.com> To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com Subject: THANKS Resent-Message-ID: <"x-i7p.0.931.84ZHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You forgot Frank Znidarsic, a most valuable and reliable source of information on free as well as non-free energy. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov ....................................... Thanks Lawrence! I'm trying. Currently I taking a few courses. One of them is thermo physics. Today I'm doing my homework trying to take the second partial derivative of entropy with respect to internal energy. This essence of this idea seems to be lost in a fog. .............................................................................. ...... Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 09:02:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13491; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:52:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:52:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199710161550.IAA05702 hercules.rdyne.bna.boeing.com> From: "Scudder, Henry J." To: "Robert I. Eachus" Cc: Vortex-L Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:47:00 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"qWE841.0.iI3.jWZHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert I think it is better to create a single common ground point, and then tie all the external grounds to it, Use a tree topology to avoid ground loops. Hank Scudder ---------- From: Robert I. Eachus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 7:42AM At 02:20 PM 10/15/97 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >With such large dielectric constants, I think PMODers have to be concerned >about capacitive effects in their experiments. My first suggestion is to measure current instead of voltage in experiments like this as much as possible. That is a comment from experience--you can build (or buy) a current sensing probe that is much less sensitive to noise than any voltage probe. Second, if you are doing what you think you are doing--and I have done the equivalent in experiments where overunity was not the objective--the voltage and current waveforms are going to be totally decoupled. You have to measure watts, either instantaneous or averaged. (And if you think it is easy, think again.) Last but not least, gate capacitance measurements for ICs, transistors, and especially SCRs (silicon controlled rectifiers) lie big time. It is not that the vendors are trying to lie to you, it is that the thing that most people want to know has nothing to do with the measurement that concerns you. They are trying to tell you how much current must be drawn externally to switch the circut, and this is usually much less than the effective capacitance WHILE the gate is in the middle of switching. For some SCRs, I've measured a ratio of over 1000 to 1 between the two numbers. In an SCR this is important, because you need to design your circuts to suppress the RFI both during turn on and turn off. You have the same situation here--lots of energy stored in that gate when it is open, and it shows up as effective capacitance. One last comment. If you really are sweating the measurements, I've had great success using tri-ax cable, grounding the inner shield, and letting the outer coax layer float unconnected at both ends. You can do the same trick with coax, but not nearly as well. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 10:14:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07438; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:03:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:04:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Speed of X-rays through superconductor Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710160421.XAA08519 natasha.eden.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <83E19B2D87 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"p4DYa1.0.7q1.PZaHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >substance is 1/ sqrt(permitivity times permiability), what would the > >speed of light be through a superconductor? > > They're opaque to visible light. And mostly opaque to radio waves, too. > Like metals. To x-rays, I bet the superconductivity is totally immaterial. > The interaction between x-rays and matter has little or nothing to do with > whether or not conduction band electrons can move perfectly freely or not. > > Scott Thanks Scott. Too bad. I guess nature abhors a singularity in this case, eh? :) JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 10:23:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00983; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:55:47 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:56:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: SUPERCONDUCTIVITY, BAND GAPS, and COLD FUISON Priority: normal In-reply-to: <971016110201_-1394530902 emout02.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <83BC957C89 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"NOdAJ2.0.FF.HSaHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > patent, demonstrate, and publish. A more interesting experiment would be to > bounce alpha particles off of the surface of a superconductor. At large back > angles the alphas bounce directy off of the coulombic wall of the nucleus. > In a material with infinite electrical permittivity will the coulombic > potential barrier be reduced? I believe it is, no voltage gradient can exist > within a superconductor. Yes, it would indeed be an interesting experiment! > NEED THEORETICAL HELP! > > The way I understand it is that high temp superconductors > have a "band gap" or forbidden zone at the Fermi energy level. Electrons > below the Fermi level are kicked up. These electrons pair with opposite spin > electrons to reduce their energy levels. This process results in > superconductivity. Another great experiment would be the photoelectric effect just above and below Tc. It would seem that, if this theory is correct, the work function should be icreased by exactly the amount of energy change in the electron pairs. > Frank Znidarsic JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 12:16:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA30218; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:37:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:37:05 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710160421.XAA08519 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:33:28 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Speed of X-rays through superconductor Resent-Message-ID: <"2-Hjz1.0.-N7.GxbHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > They're opaque to visible light. And mostly > opaque to radio waves, too. Like metals. To > x-rays, I bet the superconductivity is totally > immaterial. The interaction between x-rays > and matter has little or nothing to do with > whether or not conduction band electrons can > move perfectly freely or not. I think EM can go in as far the penetration depth for the specific material but cannot go further. But if the power is high enough (IOW, the magnetic field component of the EM is strong enough) to 'force' it through past that depth, SC properties would cease. This is what happens if you force a strong magnetic field on an SC in general, and one reason why the new HTSCs are so interesting - some can resist pretty high fields without 'breaking down'. Some metals that superconduct at very low temperatures get blown off by weak magnetic fields. But Jay's question reminds me of that supposedly superluminal tunneling idea. To the extent that quantum magic can happen inside a superconductor, I guess just about anything can happen - maybe even antigravity. (?) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 13:31:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21083; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: K2CO3-H2O-Ni Cell Attempt Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:06:08 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcda6e$f1a659c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2bdw7.0.K95.NGdHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Wrote, > >How much surface area in the fibrous nickel? How do you get 300 >square centimeters of surface in a small volume, or such? > Try a Zeolite-Molecular Sieve *Clay* Scott. Or Even an organic Ion Exchange Resin. You can load them with Nickel, Palladium, and Potassium using the Chlorides of these metals. (All very soluble in water) the surface area can get up to 2,000 square meters per gram of Ion Exchange material. Sounding kind of close to CETI-Patterson beads though. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 14:41:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03566; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:43:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:43:25 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971016164725.009cc8d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:47:25 -0400 To: "Scudder, Henry J." From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: PMOD Test Comments part 2 Cc: "Robert I. Eachus" , Vortex-L In-Reply-To: <199710161550.IAA05699 hercules.rdyne.bna.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"D4r3g1.0.Yt.hndHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:47 AM 10/16/97 -0700, Scudder, Henry J. wrote: > I think it is better to create a single common ground point, and >then tie all the external grounds to it, Use a tree topology to avoid >ground loops. I don't disagree, although it is impossible in practice to eliminate all ground loops. But the advantage of the triax approach is that at very high frequencies, if you don't ground both ends of the outer conductor of a coaxial cable, the coupling implicit in the cable can transfer considerable signal from the ground path to the probe lead. Grounding the inner shield but not the outer sheath can reduce the amount of signal picked up through inductance between shield and ground, often by a couple orders of magnitude. Another "lab trick," but one which I never used, is to ground the two outer layers of the triax, but at different ends. Of course I was conducting these experiments at much higher voltage levels. I was working with pulsed xenon arcs in an LC circut. The goal was to maximize the amount of power recirculated, and maximize the light out for a given (line) Volt Ampere rating. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 14:54:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00313; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:29:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016110645_-393815186 emout10.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt Resent-Message-ID: <"rLqGc.0.k4.qSeHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, You asked, re the nickel Fibrex cathode, "Any suggestions for cleaning it? Do you know if cleaning is critical?" Mills & Good, Fusion Technology 28 (Nov. 1995), p. 1699, said that they used nickel wire cloth from the Belleville Wire Cloth Co. for the cathodes and 80/20 Fibrex from National Standard for the anodes. Both were cleaned with a solution of 0.57 molar potassium carbonate / 3% hydrogen peroxide and then rinsed with distilled water. As for distilled water, there's distilled water and then there's distilled water. An electrochemist I spoke with some years ago, who was interested in Mills' work at the time, said that he thought Mills had lucked out with his first experiments because he used water that had been run through the water purification system used in the chemistry lab at Franklin & Marshall College. It was the kind of purification system used by lots of chemistry labs, one that deionizes water and removes organic contaminants from it. The electrochemist said that bacteria can grow in distilled water and cause organic contamination, and he said that it takes several rounds of distillation to produce really pure distilled water. I'd be surprised if distilled water from the grocery store, which is what you said you were using, qualifies as pure from an electrochemist's standpoint. As to whether or not cleaning is critical, the electrochemists I've talked with over the years have said that clean cathodes are important. Robert Bush mentioned in Infinite Energy No. 12 that he used a nickel Fibrex cathode for the working light-water cell that he showed Huizenga, but Bush didn't say whether or how he cleaned the cathode. Hasn't Hal Fox done some light water work with nickel Fibrex, too? Do you know what he does with the stuff? You mentioned that you got your Fibrex from a friend. Has your friend done any K2CO3-H2O-Ni experiments? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 17:32:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17511; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:27:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:27:08 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:26:28 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3447b0a2.10465273 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <971016021117_999906426 emout16.mail.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <971016021117_999906426 emout16.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NgFzE2.0.kG4.J3hHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 16 Oct 1997 02:12:54 -0400 (EDT), VCockeram aol.com wrote: >Scott, >The following is from a post by Professor John Farrell on the Nickel / light >water experiments. This is just the 'tips' part of the post. If you want the >entire post, I will be happy to send it. > >Vince >Las Vegas Nevada >========================================================= > >TIPS ON REPEATING THE EXPERIMENT > [snip] >believe that the active species is Ti2+. (Whenever neutrons are given off, >enormous amounts of heat are given off as well. The heat does not come from >fusion itself but from shrinkage of the H atoms or D atoms to a size >sufficiently small that fusion can occur.) > >John Farrell >Franklin & Marshall College > I suspect that any energy "given off" prior to a shrunken atom becoming involved in a fusion reaction, would need to be subtracted from the total *fusion* energy released. IOW the net result would be equivalent to fusion only (for that atom). This does not mean to imply that shrinkage energy would not be available from atoms which do not end up undergoing fusion. (Now figure out the negatives in that one!:> ). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 17:58:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24225; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:48:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:48:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3446B55A.2FE8E233 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:16:18 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X0PDO.0.Nw5.RNhHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Sorry for the delay in writing, the flu has bitten again. Anyway, to the initial results. I decided to use 74HC instead of 74AC. Bad idea. Shortest fet on/off time I can get is 70ns. Not short enough to really get into it, but ok for a lot of initial measurements. My original circuit would not self run due to the very high base drive requirements of the BU2508A I used. I have measured the gate drive of the current set-up at 15mw (coil disconnected). Connecting the coil adds another 10mw. Connecting the scope on x10 to the gate doubles the gate drive current. Gate Drive Result 1) Keep the gate cap and associated devices as low as possible. 2) Keep the gate drive voltage as low as possible while still getting good on/off times. Gate power really climbs as voltage goes up. Coil construction 1) 30 turns of 0.5mm wire spaced 1.0mm (0.5mm spacing between turns) 2) 1 tap at 15 turns. 3) Centred on 10 x 98mm ferrite rod. (Suspect it is an AM radio rod) 4) Wound on 2 layers of 80gsm paper. 5) NO LEAD lengths. Connections made direct to the coil. Ground system 1) Use a common star ground system. 2) Keep everything as short as possible. 3) Connect the fet's source directly to this point. Current sense resistor 1) I now use 114mm of 0.5mm wire. (0.01 ohm) 10mv = 1amp. 2) I place the wire between the decoupled supply point and the coil. This eliminates gate current induced errors encountered by placing the sense resistor in the source to ground link. Reverse protection diode 1) I use a SBYV27-150 diode in between the drain and the coil to stop large reverse voltage pulses from causing the fet's internal protection diode from conducting. Not really needed if the pulse width is short enough. Coil damping resistor 1) I place a 10k 1w carbon film resistor across the coil. Too small to effect current, but effective in stopping low energy oscillations. Much cleaner scope images as well. Ferrite Critical Reaction Time 1) I have measured the FCRT at 40ns for a 1 amp initial ramp using 30 turns. 2) I have measures the FCRT at 35ns for a 5 amp initial ramp using 15 turns. (Same coil, just tapped half way down) The initial current ramp I observed relates closely to my calculated air coil inductance of 3.9uh and coil resistance of 0.078 ohm. The test above was designed to test for non FCRT effects by using a coil with half the inductance, half the capacitance and half the resistance. The times I observed didn't vary greatly. The amplitude of the events did due to the much higher H field generated by the reduced coil inductance. I believe the 5ns reduction in the FCRT, in the second test, to be caused by the much higher (x5) H field causing somewhat quicker bloch wall (domain) movement. This test seems to provide solid evidence that in my ferrite sample, the FCRT is 35-40ns. Back to the shops to replace the 74HC's with 74AC's and the the fet to turn on/off in 35-40ns. I will update my site, with the latest circuit, when I get back from the doc's. Hope this makes sense, I am working at about 50%. Weird idea, why do some of you ask me about health effects when working around this stuff? What do you know / suspect that I don't know? My flu didn't start until I fired up the PMOD rig. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 19:37:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22509; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:25:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:25:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: Radio and "opaque" In-Reply-To: <83E19B2D87 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WFUoQ1.0.WV5.roiHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At radio frequencies, RF, the concept of "opaque" must take into account many things. One exaple is geometry. At microwave RF and insulator can be a relector, refractor of transparent. A conductor at RF can be inductive, capacitive, conductive or insulator .... depending on frequency and geometry. J On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Jay Olson wrote: > > > >substance is 1/ sqrt(permitivity times permiability), what would the > > >speed of light be through a superconductor? > > > > They're opaque to visible light. And mostly opaque to radio waves, too. > > Like metals. To x-rays, I bet the superconductivity is totally immaterial. > > The interaction between x-rays and matter has little or nothing to do with > > whether or not conduction band electrons can move perfectly freely or not. > > > > Scott > > Thanks Scott. Too bad. I guess nature abhors a singularity in this > case, eh? :) > > JAY OLSON > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 20:58:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28290; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:54:49 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016234316_1499228140 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"u7Rpg2.0.xv6.66kHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-10-16 09:33:26 EDT, you write: << So I should use soap....acids other than nitric? I don't know Scott. Maybe you could give him a call. BTW Vince, where did you find this post of Farrell's? >> It's in my archives. It was posted to SPF in 1991. Stand by. I am going to cut/paste all of the stuff I have on the Ni/H2O from Farrell. It's now 20:30 in Las Vegas and I figure it will be on line before midnight. Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 21:13:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23944; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:06:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:06:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: A NEW SCIENTIST book review Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA23867 Resent-Message-ID: <"EkJCt2.0.zr5.LHkHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This from: http://www.nsplus.com/ns/970920/review.html .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page REVIEW: Passionate Minds by Lewis Wolpert and Alison Richards, Oxford, £19·99, ISBN 0198549040 book cover of Passionate Minds øøøøøøøøøøø THE public was right after all. Scientists are mad--just as nutty as the wild-eyed, white-coated caricatures of popular fiction. They are driven, obsessive, other-worldly and almost lustfully fixated on the beauty of their subject. At least the best ones are. Such is the inescapable conclusion to be drawn from Lewis Wolpert and Alison Richards's Passionate Minds, their latest collection of interviews with icons of modern research. As with their previous volume, A Passion for Science published in 1988, the interviews were first conducted by Wolpert and produced for BBC Radio 3 by Alison Richards, who provides a sparkling introduction to the book. I shall now apologise to my children for scoffing at their stereotypical views of white-coated boffindom. The interviews are a joy. Question and answer interchanges are usually hard going, whether in a reporter's notebook or on the printed page. But not here. Wolpert's interviewing technique is forensic and to the point. He homes in unerringly on the declared purpose of the series, to reveal "how scientists tick". Richards sums up the common characteristics of most of the 23 scientists interviewed as "innocents and outsiders". It is gratifying to find that, even today, the best boffins are the gifted amateurs and "intellectual buccaneers". However dense the undergrowth of existing knowledge, it still seems that burrowers lose out to the high-steppers who achieve an Olympian view. Narrow specialism remains strictly for the drones. The best still roam free. This book is full of people who jumped subjects, even dropped science for sabbaticals in other careers, and found that a clean canvas and the freedom of the outsider cleared their minds and cut through the received wisdom of existing disciplines. James Lovelock, the independent scientist and inventor of numerous gadgets as well as the Gaia hypothesis, rails against the science establishment from his one-man experimental station deep in Cornwall. He tells Wolpert that science disciplines "are purely feudal, set up by professors to retain territories over which they have control". His independence is notorious. But Carlo Rubbia, the godfather of European particle physics, one of the ultimates in organised "big science", is among many here who offer a similar view. "A scientist is a freelance personality," he says. The common trait of innocence is equally interesting. Some say the best politicians (Thatcher, say, or Blair) bring an innocence to their task that allows them to override existing institutions and orthodoxies. To think afresh. Many artists have the same naivety. James Black, Nobel prizewinning inventor of beta-blockers, says he did it by entering a field about which he knew little and "asking questions which were really quite preposterous". Immunologist Gerald Edelman says only innocence gave him the gall to investigate the structure of the antibody molecule. Richards concludes that innocents and outsiders follow in the footsteps of Freud, Einstein and Darwin in daring to divide up the world into categories that are radically different from those used by everyone else. As cell biologist Michael Berridge puts it, the task of good science is "to make connections between different ideas, different disciplines". That, of course, is what the mad do--and conspiracy theorists. They find links between things other people believe utterly unconnected. And many scientists admit to being thought deranged by their fellows. "People thought I was crazy," says Edelman. It is generally supposed that the boundary between the madman and the genius is, well, small--the scientists are just those who are eventually proved right. The man who first proposed the existence of quarks, Sheldon Glashow, told Wolpert: "If you would simply take all the kookiest ideas of the early 1970s and put them together, you would have made for yourself the theory which is, in fact, the correct theory of nature. So it was like madness, everybody's weirdest fancy was right." But scientists often get it wrong too, says Richards. In fact, failure "seems to be the rule rather than the exception", and the catalogue of mistakes revealed here by the scientific elite is salutary. Biochemist Peter Mitchell, for instance, owns up to spending eight years on the wrong track before later picking up a Nobel prize. Carl Djerassi, who invented the contraceptive pill, says "scientific research most of the time is just a series of failures". Gloomy? Not at all. The best scientists just keep on keeping on. They are stubborn and driven by an inner certainty. But they are also childlike. For Rubbia, the man who ran science's biggest ever adventure playground at CERN, says disarmingly that science "is a sort of game". So you were wrong? So what? Wasn't it fun! For many this may seem the ultimate heresy. Science is fun because it is about imagination, dreaming and creativity and all those things that are supposed to be the province of artists. For instance, the double helix was "discovered" in a dream. As developmental biologist Antonio Garcia Bellido puts it: "The pleasure of finding something that explains the phenomena . . . is similar in many respects to the feeling of a creative artist who has finished a painting or a musical composition. It's a feeling of having been in agreement with somebody, with nature." Rubbia concurs: "Science for me is very close to art. Scientific discovery is an irrational act. It's an intuition which turns out to be reality at the end of it--and I see no difference between a scientist developing a marvellous discovery and an artist making a painting." Chemist Roald Hoffman, who describes himself as an antireductionist, says theory-building in science is "an act of creation"--like writing poetry, his other love. There is more. The passion aroused by discovery has another side. Edelman has "lustful feelings of excitement when a secret of nature is revealed". And with love comes hate. Underneath every report in a science journal "intended supposedly to present the facts dispassionately without emotional involvement, without history, without motivation . . . there's a human being screaming that I'm right and you're wrong," says Hoffman. There is high politics, too, hidden from all but a few cognoscenti. "Sometimes it's more important to know who has been omitted among the first ten footnotes rather than who is included--very much like in Russian communist days taking stock of the line-up of people on top of Lenin's tomb," adds Hoffman. And what of the moment of inspiration? We are told that scientists rarely leap from the bath shouting "Eureka!". Hard grind is what matters. Well phooey to that. The "really sensational advances" happen exactly like the romantic myth, says Djerassi. Physicist Murray Gell-Mann agrees. "Useful original ideas usually follow a certain set of general principles in most fields, including arts [in which] outside of conscious thought the mind seemed somehow to go on working on the problem, because at some point later on--say while running or cycling or shaving or cooking--the useful idea would come." So we should pity those government administrators determined to "direct" science towards particular ends. You will work hard to find on these pages any successful exercise of this sort. Black, the man who made two of the most lucrative pharmacological breakthroughs of the age by inventing beta-blockers and cimetidine, a drug that fights ulcers, says that such ends were never in his head. Nurse! The syringe, the straitjacket; these people are crazy. Thank goodness! From New Scientist, 20 September 1997 © Copyright New Scientist, IPC Magazines Limited 1997 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 22:17:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09650; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:12:19 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017010559_1243369785 emout20.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"aSBjp2.0.cM2.kElHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In a message dated 97-10-16 02:56:22 EDT, you write: >From: mrandall earthlink.net (Michael Randall) >Yes, I would like to see the entire post. >Thanks, > Michael All right, for Michael, Scott and all Vorts who have expressed interest in the Farrell posts, here they are in their entirety: ====================================================== Newsgroups: Sci.Physics.Fusion Subject: Excess heat Date: 4 NOV 1991 21:47:47 Organization: Sci.Physics.Fusion/Mail Gateway Richard Schroeppel asks why the paper by Mills and Kneizys, Fusion Technology 20 (1991) 65, has not recieved more attention and if there has been any duplication. 1. The paper was published in Fusion Technology. Not many institutions recieve this journal--thus, not much attention. 2. Mills, Kneizys and Farrell are not calorimetry people. (although when you get this kind of excess heat, how good do you have to be? Furthermore, we had some excellent calorimetry people come in and help us). 3. Mills and Fallell have tried to publish the theory elsewhere--Phys. Rev. Lett., for example. Some of the referees have been favorable (vety creative, intriguing, and so on). But trying to publish a theory that overturns Schrodinger mechanics is quite difficult (as you might expect). 4. Yes, we have had others duplicate the work. One internationally famous electrochemist has submitted his results to Nature. As you know, Nature has not published **ANY** positive cold-fusion research. My guess is that this work will not be published either. 5. I am not at liberty to give you the names of all who have had positive results with our system (0.6 M K2C03 with a Ni cathode and a Pt anode). to my knowledge, six labs have successfully repeated the work. I can give you the following: V.C.Noninski (508) 879-4457--His work has been accepted for publication in Fusion Technology. James McBreen, Brookhaven National Labs (Upton, NY). 6. The work reported in Fusion Technology was essentially a 100 mw reactor. We have had a 100 W reactor working for about one month. 30-50 W in, that is (Vappl - 1.48) I = 30-50 W. 100-120 W out. There is little or no recombination of hydrogen and oxygen. 7. This week we should have a 1000 W reactor going. 8. We have **never** had a K+/Ni system that did not produce excess heat (unless we poisoned the electrode). As far as we can tell this system is 100% reproducible. TIPS ON REPEATING THE EXPERIMENT 1. Use normal water, H2O not D2O, unless you are looking for tritum or neutrons. Essentially all of the heat is **NOT** caused by fusion but by some other physical process--namely shrinkage of hydrogen atoms from the N=1 state to the N=1/2 state. (I know this is hard to believe, particularly for someone like me who has taught quantum chemistry for 25 years, but life **is** stranger than fiction.) 2. Ni foil or wire can be used. The Ni should be clean. Handle the Ni with cotton or plastic gloves. Do **not** clean the Ni nitric acid or organic solvents. 3. About 0.6 M K2CO3 is best. Lower and higher concentrations work but not as well. 4. Use a current density of 1 ma/cm2 with a foil or 2 ma/cm2 with a wire. Most researchers are using current densities that are **too high**. The object is to form H atoms on the surface of the NiHx. These H atoms then can undergo a catalytic shrinkage in the presence of K+ (or other suitable ion). If a high current density is used the H atoms are forced off the surface. (The Ni does not enter into the reaction, it simply is a surface on which the H atoms can form.) 5.It is important to electropolish the Ni cathode before beginning the calorimetry. That is, run the electrolysis (preferably in the calorimetry cell) for about half an hour to an hour with the Ni as the anode and the Pt as the cathode. OTHER POSSIBLE SYSTEMS Thousands of other systems are possible. Unfortunately, most of these are ions or ion combinations that are difficult or impossible to make. We have tried many of the chemically reasonable ones and the K+ system works best. PD2+/Li+ works, but not as well. Note PD2+, not PD metal. We believe that to the extant that PD/Li+ works, it is PD2+ on or near the surface of the PD that is the active species. Rb+ works but not as well. Li+, Na+, Cs+ do not work. Ti2+ does work. Here again to the extent that Ti/D2 gives neutrons, we believe that the active species is Ti2+. (Whenever neutrons are given off, enormous amounts of heat are given off as well. The heat does not come from fusion itself but from shrinkage of the H atoms or D atoms to a size sufficiently small that fusion can occur.) John Farrell Franklin & Marshall College ========================================================= end of post I will now go looking for any others of interest. Regards, Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 22:50:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19429; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:46:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:46:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3446FB20.ACB714EE microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:14:00 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Latest PMOD information up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NIqVB.0.Ql4.RklHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, The latest PMOD test results and full circuits have been posted. Yes dear, I am going back to bed now. PS : The 74AC's are on order. None in Adelaide. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 23:25:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25273; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:19:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:19:06 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017021826_190601510 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5TmgR2.0.kA6.PDmHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BLP experimental protocall Part 2. =================================================== A Kepco ATE-100M constant current supply was programmed at 15.0 amperes peak current (+ 0.05%) and driven by a function generator (BK Precision Dynascan Corporation, Model #3011) to produce a square wave. The time average voltage, current, and power were measured with a digital V-A-W meter (Clarke Hess Communications Research Corp. Model #259 power meter Dc to 30 kHz with an IEEE-488 bus option and a 50 ampere shunt for Dc to 1 kHz). The voltage, current, and power readings of the power meter, as well as the temperature data of the microprocessor thermometers were acquired every 2 minutes over the duration of the experiment by the data acquisition system— an Apple Mac II SI 5/80 with a NU bus adapter and the following G W Instruments, Inc. hardware: GWI - 625 Data Acquisition Board; GWI - J2E Multiplexer; GWI - ABO Analog Breakout System; GWI - 34W Ribbon cable. The peak current was determined from the voltage measurement (± 0.1%) across an Ohio Semitronics CTA 101 current transducer. The peak voltage, offset voltage, duty cycle, and frequency measurements were made with an oscilloscope (Tekronix 10 MHz Storage Oscilloscope #T912). For Experiment #1, the electrolyte solution was 11 liters of 0.57 M aqueous K2CO3 (Aldrich K2CO3 * \F(3,2) H2O 99+%). The current-voltage parameters were: a periodic square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.51 volts (1.51 V was applied at zero current); a peak voltage of 2.10 volts; a peak constant current of 15.0 amperes; a 15.0% duty cycle; a frequency of 1 Hz. Experiment #1 was run for 14 days. Experiment #1A was the calibration of the efficiency of heat transfer to the condenser for Experiment #1 without electrolysis. Experiment #1A was run for 7 days. For Experiment #2, the electrolyte solution was 11 liters of 0.57 M aqueous Na2CO3 (Aldrich Na2CO3 A.C.S. primary standard 99.95 +%). The current-volt-age parameters were: a periodic square-wave having an offset voltage of 1.49 volts (1.49 V was applied at zero current); a peak voltage of 2.01 volts; a peak constant current of 15.0 amperes; a 15.0% duty cycle; a frequency of 1 Hz. Experiment #2 was run for 7 days. Experiment #2A was the calibration of the efficiency of heat transfer to the condenser for Experiment #2 without electrolysis. Experiment #2A was run for 7 days. =================end of past from BLP site==================== If anyone wants the tables, graphs ect from these experiments, jump into the BLP website. I was not able to copy them (only text) from the Adobe Reader(tm). Please excuse my sloppy copy/paste but all of the info is there. I tried to arrange it to fit on my AOL mail page and do hope it will fit on others. 23:15 now and I'm gonna hit the rack. G'nite. Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 16 23:25:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25231; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:19:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:19:00 -0700 From: VCockeram aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 02:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017021824_1621966758 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"fGIIX2.0.8A6.JDmHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those of you that do not have access to the BLP site due to lack of the Adobe Reader, I here paste a couple of pages on Ni/H2O experimental protocall. Vince Las Vegas ====================begin post 1=========================== B. Electrolysis Methods Each cathode was a 30.5 cm wide by 122 cm long 100 x 100 Mesh, 0.0051 cm diameter nickel 200 wire cloth (Belleville Wire Cloth Co., Inc.) that was sewed on one long edge with 0.38 mm diameter nickel wire to a 244 cm long 6.35 mm diameter nickel 200 rod (Williams) that also served as the lead. Each cathode was cleaned by placing it in the glass test tube liner containing 0.57 M X2CO3 /3% H2O2, X = K for the K2CO3 experiments and X = Na for the Na2CO3 experi-ments, for 30 minutes and then rinsed with distilled water. Each anode was a 20 cm wide by 100 cm long by 0.080 inch thick nickel fiber mat with 0.80 grams of NiO per square inch (National Standard 80/20 Fibrex) that was sewed on one long edge with 0.38 mm diameter nickel wire to a 244 cm long 6.35 mm diameter nickel 200 rod (Williams) that also served as the lead. The anodes were cleaned as above for the cathodes. The anode sheet was wrapped around the cathode and a 1 mm thick Teflon mesh sheet was inserted to prevent contact between the cathode and the anode. As usual in electrochemistry, measures were taken to avoid impurities in the system, especially organic substances. We note here the known problems with the reproducibility of the hydrogen overpotential which can be overcome only by ensuring the lowest possible level of impurities. The following procedures were used in order to reproduce the excess heat effect. Before starting the experiment, the electrolysis dewar liner was cleaned with Alconox and 0.1 M nitric acid and rinsed thoroughly with distilled water to remove all organic contaminants. The nickel cathode and anode were handled with rubber gloves. The electrodes were cut and folded in such a way that no organic substances were transferred to the nickel surfaces. The electrodes where assembled in the glass test tube which was sealed with the Teflon cap; the leads penetrated the cap. The glass liner containing the electrode assembly was inserted into the dewar, and the condenser was inserted through a perforation in the Teflon cap. The electrode leads were then connected to the power supply, and electrolyte was added under electrolysis voltage. The electrodes were never left in the electrolyte without electrolysis current. The electrolyte level was maintained to full by additions of distilled water through the condenser (to replace water lost through electrolysis). A drop in the electrolyte level of 50 ml below full was indicated by an open circuit resistance reading of two nickel leads that penetrated the Teflon cap. ====================================================== more to follow in next post From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 01:03:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08246; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:56:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:56:40 -0700 From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <3446B851.ECD pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:58:57 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) References: <3446B55A.2FE8E233 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2C3t33.0.l02.senHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If your working with scalar fields. There was an experiment that showed that scalar fields are 20x more biologically active than the same field in normal EM.  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 01:22:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA11420; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:19:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:19:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:18:35 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19971016232620.2ec7589e freetelco.com> X-Sender: freetel freetelco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Martin Picha Subject: Ti-D2O exper. (J. Dash) replication? Resent-Message-ID: <"l4JDQ.0.Mo2.B-nHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone in this group replicated the experiment of Dr. John Dash and R. Kopecek? (Excess heat and unexpected elements from Electrolysis of heavy water with Titanium Cathodes, J.New Energy, Fall/96, pp. 46-53) The experiment involved a Ti foil cathode in a solution of 0.01 mol H2SO4 and 0.99 mol D2O and current density of 2A/cm^2 of Ti surface. The claimed excess heat was more than 50% (~1.2W). If you have either positive or negative results, I would like to hear from you. Martin Picha freetel freetelco.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 01:25:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA11383; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:19:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:19:11 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971017162145.006945b4 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:21:45 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Scalar fields ??? In-Reply-To: <3446B851.ECD pacbell.net> References: <3446B55A.2FE8E233 microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uehWJ1.0.nn2.-znHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 00:58 17/10/97 +0000, wrote: >If your working with scalar fields. There was an experiment that >showed that scalar fields are 20x more biologically active than the >same field in normal EM. How about if someone defines what a scalar field is? I'm sure more than just the latecomers like myself would benefit. I guess I am interested in what units are used to give the scalar field's magnitude, how it can be generated and measured, - simple stuff like that? A reference to the experiment mentioned would probably suffice. Thanks. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 03:49:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA30103; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:46:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:46:33 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Making Volcanos? Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:45:20 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdae9$c3c16d80$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cgrfp.0.BM7.88qHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I was talking to a well driller-friend that drilled into an ancient volcano cauldera for Los Alamos Labs some years ago. He said he drilled through "10,500 feet of solid granite until the temperature got up to about 500 deg Fahrenheit". They hydraulically opened a "crack" about the thickness of a dime 400 ft by 600 ft (240,000 ft^2). Granite has roughly the following chemical composion: SiO2 70.00, TiO2 0.4, Al2O3 14.5, Fe2O3 1.6, FeO 1.8, MnO 0.12, MgO 0.9, CaO 2.0, Na2O 3.5, K2O 4.0, H2O 0.8, P2O5 0.2. With a 10,500 foot head of water (4,548 PSI) the water would have to get well over the critical temperature of 705 deg F and a critical pressure of 3,206 PSI, for the thing to "burp" like a coffee percolator. At 500 F the sub-critical pressure of water is about 660 PSI. However, if the thing starts creating "Hydrinos" and releasing that energy into the surrounding granite it should turn into an active volcano in a few years or so? :-) Ever notice that it takes the presence of a good head of water for Hot Springs, Geysers and Volcanos to exist, even where the ancient inland seas were, there are "extinct" Volcanos? Mother Nature's CF-Hydrino Power? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 03:58:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA30744; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:54:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 03:54:46 -0700 Message-ID: <34474374.1499A7B5 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:22:36 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD FCRT Circuit Version 2 up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JpjDA3.0.EW7.qFqHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have posted the next version of the PMOD FCRT Circuit. There are several improvments to generate shorted drive pulses and use higher voltages to drive the coil. Should get the 72AC devices on Monday. Will post the shorter pulse results soon after. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 04:07:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA24646; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344745CE.B8ECB87C microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:32:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) References: <3446B55A.2FE8E233 microtronics.com.au> <3446B851.ECD@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_m6Qc.0._06.vNqHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ehammond pacbell.net wrote: > > If your working with scalar fields. There was an experiment that > showed that scalar fields are 20x more biologically active than the > same field in normal EM. >  Hi E. Hammond, I don't believe I am generating Scalar waves, just good old EM stuff. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 04:14:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA24935; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: SUPERCONDUCTIVITY, BAND GAPS, and COLD FUSION Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:08:12 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971017111552227.AAA101 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"Aey6N2.0.W56.JWqHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank said: > In a cold fusion electrode a sea of hydrogen electrons exists. Is this really true? My impression is that hydrogen or deuterium nuclei are stripped of their electrons and pulled into the cathode by its negative charge and settle into the metal lattice as naked positive particles with a swarm of negative electrons associated with the host metal atoms. There may be a sea of negative charges, but it seems they didn't come in with the hydrogen -- their (or identical surrogates) electrons went to the anode. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 04:28:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02136; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:22:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:22:20 -0700 Message-ID: <344749F2.AA222CED microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:50:18 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMODers; PLEASE READ! References: <3.0.32.19971016232259.0080c980 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fu3JK1.0.7X.hfqHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Greetings : > > As a general lurker on this listserv, I feel compelled to comment on the recent > flurry of posts regarding > > http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/pmod.html > > which alludes to an overunity effect attributed to domain wall motion in soft > ferrite. The circuit, in it's essence, consists of a transmission line/inductor > which is shorted at one end and has an effective short to high frequency at the > other end by means of the large capacitors. With switch open, the capacitors C2 > and C1 charge to 4 volts DC. On closure, they ( and the distributed capacity to > ground of the wire wrapped ferrite rod ) discharge. There is less than 2mv of ripple across the caps. > A wave of current, beginning > at the switch, travels back through the wire wrapped rod to C1 & C2. This wave > reflects at the caps, and travels back through the rod. This is the sharp pulse > seen in the first part of the figure at the URL above. My latest series of tests shows that the initial current ramp is re;ated to the coils inductance. > The second pass begins to > discharge the capacitors; along with the power supply ( there being no > resistance to prevent this ). This is not really an issue; The capacitors I use are 5 x 0.1uf monolithics (designed for high frequency decoupling). A job they do very well. > I just point it out as it > will ( if switch closure is long enough ) present problems to analysis. The long > ramp seen following the pulse is the discharge of the caps, mediated by the > inductance of the rod. Incorrect. The supply is VERY stiff. > The "barkhausen bumps" are actually the ringing down > of this fast pulse, each bump representing the round trip delay > time through the wire wrapped rod. The bumps are Barkhausen. You need a coil with lots of turns to see them. but they are there. > In fact, this type of slow wave transmission > line was a commonly used delay system in early radar and computing circuitry. > > The diagram shows switch closure before the first half cycle of the low frequency > discharge, which may or may not be evident depending on the inductance of L1. > Probably, L1 is too small so the current will rise to some value (depending on the > overall DC resistance of the circuit ). Using a smaller value of C, along with a > large ( >10Kohm ) resistor to decouple the power supply will show you what I mean. I have been working with magnetic systems for many years. The effects I mention can be seen in any good book on switch mode design. > I respect what Greg is doing on this list; he seems to be able to motivate people > to actually make stuff and experiment. And in the same spirit I hope all who study > this circuit bear in mind the above analysis. I spent quite a bit of time studying > this type of mixed mode ( transmission line/lumped LC ) type circuit, for very > different reasons, and found it to be very rewarding. As far as OU is concerned, > I'm afraid I'm missing it here... The circuits I have posted can't yet produce drive pulses short enough to produce the H to B phasing. It is the H to B phasing where the OU comes in. I suggest to re-read my PMOD page. The PMOD effect is real. The supply is STIFF. H to B phasing in ferrites exists. > Also, International Rectifier used to make FETS with current sensing resistors > built in, they were terrific for studying this kind of stuff. I also used Textronics > CT1 and CT2 current probes, which were good but of course got dicey as the > frequency decreased ( they're basically transformers ). Also, consider the fact > that at these frequencies the transmission line effects will be quite difficult > to measure acurrately. Use a longer ferrite rod, and more turns and you will > see what I mean ( I don't think the 15 and 30 turn experiment is conclusive ). > You would want to be able to resolve 1ns per cm to make this measurement, > and the wire current sense resistor is going to hurt. Again, make everything bigger > and the effects will make alot more sense ( as the measurements will be accurate ). > > Best look at the current on both sides of the circuit ( switch and cap ), there > will be a one way delay time if your probes are matched. This will be half the pulse > width of the fast pulse. > > KPN Hi Keith, Thanks for the input. Think you will find the latest PMOD postings interesting. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 05:52:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA27796; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:41:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710171241.HAA27650 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: SUPERCONDUCTIVITY, BAND GAPS, and COLD FUSION Resent-Message-ID: <"QAYvS2.0.Eo6.XprHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:08 PM 10/16/97 -0400, Mike Carrell wrote: >My impression is that hydrogen or deuterium nuclei are >stripped of their electrons and pulled into the cathode.... The electron associated with the proton/deuteron is definitely present in the lattice. A quick calculation will show that this is a necessity...otherwise the cathode would become charged to an "astronomical" value as loading approaches H/Pd of 1/1. Whether or not the elecron is still in the n=1 ground state around the H nucleus is a question I'd like answered. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 06:06:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA16275; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:58:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:58:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971017085745.006ea618 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:57:45 +0000 To: From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: SUPERCONDUCTIVITY, BAND GAPS, and COLD FUSION Cc: In-Reply-To: <19971017111552227.AAA101 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cNXiM2.0.3-3.O3sHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No. The anode is the site of oxidation. It is deficient of electrons. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) At 09:08 PM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >Frank said: > >> In a cold fusion electrode a sea of hydrogen electrons exists. > >Is this really true? My impression is that hydrogen or deuterium nuclei are >stripped of their electrons and pulled into the cathode by its negative >charge and settle into the metal lattice as naked positive particles with a >swarm of negative electrons associated with the host metal atoms. There may >be a sea of negative charges, but it seems they didn't come in with the >hydrogen -- their (or identical surrogates) electrons went to the anode. > >Mike Carrell > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 08:39:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10250; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34477FCC.5BD0 ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:10:04 -0500 From: Craig Haynie Reply-To: ccHaynie ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Latest PMOD information up References: <3446FB20.ACB714EE microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UBqMu3.0.-V2.F2uHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Greg! Have any of the SMOT's been mailed yet? Are you still planning to send them out? Craig Haynie ccHaynie ix.netcom.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 08:44:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20523; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:23:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:23:46 -0700 Message-Id: <34477DC7.19F9BBB8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:01:27 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: eprint: On the Existence of Undistorted Progressive Waves .. in Nature Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5174655FA89EDDB9C0D37682" Resent-Message-ID: <"6WgNU.0.Y05._BuHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5174655FA89EDDB9C0D37682 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------5174655FA89EDDB9C0D37682 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3447330F.1A7CB973 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:42:39 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Munip ONIZ CC: "Robert G. Flower" Subject: eprint: On the Existence of Undistorted Progressive Waves .. in Nature Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Vo, I rediscovered this paper while it is updated today. I strongly suggest you read it as it offers solutions for waves to exist is stationay! to infinite velocities. Solutions provided directly lead to electromagnetic unified theory, and proove the superluminal phenomena, and able to unified what we called sc alar waves. Available at http://xxx.lanl.gov/ps/hep-th/9606171 Regards, hamdi ucar High Energy Physics - Theory, abstract hep-th/9606171 From: Jose Emilio Maiorino Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 15:00:33 WST Date (revised): Fri, 2 Aug 1996 15:49:42 -0300 (EST) Date (revised): Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:23:02 GMT Date (revised): Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:18:40 GMT On the Existence of Undistorted Progressive Waves (UPWs) of Arbitrary Speeds 0 <= v < infinity in Nature Authors: W.A. Rodrigues Jr., J.-Y. Lu Comments: 77 pages, Latex article, with figures. Includes corrections to the published version Report-no: RP12/96 Journal-ref: Foundations of Physics vol. 27, n.3, 435-508 (1997) We present the theory, the experimental evidence, and fundamental physical consequences concerning the existence of families of undistorted progressive waves (UPWs) of arbitrary speeds $0\leq v < \infty$, which are solutions of the homogeneous wave equation, Maxwell equations, and Dirac and Weyl equations. --------------5174655FA89EDDB9C0D37682-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 09:00:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27955; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:49:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:49:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:48:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Jason Aldo To: Greg Watson Cc: List Server Freenrg , List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG claims? In-Reply-To: <343C344C.61FFF039 microtronics.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Nk3gT1.0.hq6.JauHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Greg, Your RMOG sounds very interesting. It parallels research I am doing on a flux switch alternator which exhibits anti-Lenzian effects. I wrote you an E-Mail last week offering to verify your claims of self-running operation at Stirling Technology, an R&D compamy in Athens Ohio where I work. I offered to pay for transportation, however, you did not reply. If you do not want to travel to Ohio, could you send a generator for us to test or at least more details? I, nor the people I work with are not out to steal your invention, just to find out if you really have an overunity device. My E-Mail account will be closed on the 25'th of October, so you may contact me at work after that if you wish. Sincerely, Pete J. Aldo Stirling Technology 178 Mill St. Athens, Ohio 45701 614-594-2277 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 09:09:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28984; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:52:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:52:37 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017114857_234064947 emout14.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Storms' XSH Resent-Message-ID: <"SGJBB1.0.f47.3duHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, You mentioned that Ed Storms is getting about 1.2 W excess for an input of 12 W. Is he getting more heat out than total electrical energy in? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 09:12:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29228; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:53:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:53:15 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017114851_1589549875 emout12.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Excess energy" patents Resent-Message-ID: <"cOUEL3.0.C87.eduHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki said that he had seen an abstract of a patent granted to Putterman, the explorer of single-bubble picosecond sonoluminescence, claiming excess energy. Was the claim for sonoluminescence? That would be something new. Putterman and his colleagues have produced huge concentrations of sound energy into a tiny bubble, but I've never seen any report before that they were claiming more energy out of the bubble than the total sound energy being focussed on it. Can anyone post a copy of the abstract? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 09:45:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18347; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3447A0E7.776A mediacity.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:31:19 -0800 From: "M.Twain" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: meet again soon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tzuBh1.0.YU4.98vHq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm logging off for a few days. Getting on the plane to NuZe, don't know how soon will be fully 'reconnected'. Health and understanding, Millennium From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 09:49:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11126; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:34:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:34:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3420005C.F8BFA601 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:08:00 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Speed of X-rays through superconductor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PvmtM.0.kj2.REvHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Anyone seen: http://www.webleasing.com/~jon/welcome/door.html at first look. Rick Monteverde wrote: > Scott Little wrote: > > > They're opaque to visible light. And mostly > > opaque to radio waves, too. Like metals. To > > x-rays, I bet the superconductivity is totally > > immaterial. The interaction between x-rays > > and matter has little or nothing to do with > > whether or not conduction band electrons can > > move perfectly freely or not. > > I think EM can go in as far the penetration depth for the specific material > but cannot go further. But if the power is high enough (IOW, the magnetic > field component of the EM is strong enough) to 'force' it through past that > depth, SC properties would cease. This is what happens if you force a > strong magnetic field on an SC in general, and one reason why the new HTSCs > are so interesting - some can resist pretty high fields without 'breaking > down'. Some metals that superconduct at very low temperatures get blown off > by weak magnetic fields. But Jay's question reminds me of that supposedly > superluminal tunneling idea. To the extent that quantum magic can happen > inside a superconductor, I guess just about anything can happen - maybe > even antigravity. (?) > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 10:38:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA30146; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:22:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:22:47 -0700 From: "Mike McDonald" Organization: AR School for Math & Science To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:19:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Strange Attractor Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <188E121615 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us> Resent-Message-ID: <"HCBQF1.0.nM7.bxvHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm doing a workup on Chaos theory, and I'm looking for some good pictures of some strange attractors and fractals. If any of you have any of the above laying around in your computers somewhere, please send me a copy. I appreciate the help.. M. Pendragon Micheal P. McDonald Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 11:41:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15628; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:24:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:24:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:14:34 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Storms' XSH Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710171417_MC2-2445-C5DE compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"DFUx31.0.3q3.frwHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Tom Stolper asks: You mentioned that Ed Storms is getting about 1.2 W excess for an input of 12 W. Is he getting more heat out than total electrical energy in? Yes. That's ~12 watts I*V input, ~13.2 watts output. He uses a closed cell with a recombiner. He is going move the cathode into a more sensitive dual-mode static & flow calorimeter. It is a trivial thing, but please do not use the expression "XSH." It grates on me! That's what Steve Jones and the other surly skeptics say. They cannot bring themselves to write "excess heat." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 15:01:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03210; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:51:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:51:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199710172151.RAA05598 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Center for Frontier Sciences To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:27:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Announce: Lecture on Cold Fusion by Mallove next Tuesday Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"J841J3.0.yn.htzHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Center for Frontier Sciences at Temple University (Philadelphia, PA) invites you to attend a (free) lecture this coming Tuesday: "How We Won the Cold Fusion War" October 21, 1997, Tuesday, 2:00 - 3:30 pm. Eugene Mallove, Ph.D. - President, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., and Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine (Concord, NH) Abstract: "Recent scientific and commercial developments in the cold fusion controversy include many cases replicated by dozens of laboratories and published in peer-reviewed literature of new energy-producing systems and reactors. These developments vindicate the work of Pons and Fleischmann in the late 1980's and suggest the onset of an unprecedented technological revolution. Dr. Mallove will review the history of these developments and offer predictions for their implications for the practice of science and the progress of civilization." ------------------------- Place: Temple University Kiva Auditorium, Ritter Hall Annex 1301 Cecil B. Moore Ave. (NE corner of North Broad St. & Cecil B. Moore Ave.) Philadelphia, PA Time: 2:00 - 3:30 p.m. Refreshments served at 1:30 p.m. Lectures are free; the academic community and public are invited. ------------------------- For further information, please contact: Nancy Kolenda, Coordinator Phone: 215-204-8487 Fax: 215-204-5553 E-mail: v2058a vm.temple.edu Website: http://www.temple.edu/CFS ------------------------- Center for Frontier Sciences at Temple University Ritter Hall (003-00), Room 478 1301 Cecil B. Moore Ave. Philadelphia, PA 19122 USA ------------------------- About the Center for Frontier Sciences: The goal of the Center is to facilitate scientific study in areas such as bioelectromagnetics, the mind-matter interrelationship, complementary and alternative medicine, unresolved issues in quantum physics, and new energy technologies. As an integral part of a major university, the Center maintains high standards in reviewing new claims, while remaining open to ideas that may go beyond currently dominant paradigms. Frontier Perspectives, the Center's semi-annual journal, publishes peer-reviewed scientific papers, along with Invited Opinions, Book Reviews, and news of organizations, meetings, and other publications of interest. A cumulative index is posted on the Center's website at URL http://www.temple.edu/CFS. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 15:08:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04699; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:20 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971017175307_-57959413 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: newman-l emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: (MER) Werjefelt documents on web Resent-Message-ID: <"sJuhZ1.0.791.zyzHq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, The Werjefelt documents are on the web now, thanks to Stefan Hartman. They are at www.overunity.de/tep/index.cgi Twenty are now scanned out of forty five and are being up loaded to Stefan daily in groups of ten. They are listed as page1.gif thru page20.gif . The last group that is sent will have the drawings and pictures of the device. Also, at one time Gene Mallove had video tapes of Mr. Werjefelt's presentation at MIT, the tapes were for sale to the public. I will check to see if they still are. (Gene, If you read this, please let us know how much the cost is, and how to order). I would also like to thank Stefan Hartman for putting these documents on his web site. I hope to get them typed in a word processor format to free up some of his space. These are very interesting documents and Mr. Werjefelt has done his homework. Please excuse the quality of the images as they are documents mailed to me from Hawaii by Mr. Werjefelt, then scanned, then emailed to Stefan to be set up for his web site. They were copies when I received them! I would like to thank Mr. Werjefelt for giving me permission to put these on the web, he could have said no. Thanks, Butch LaFonte From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 15:43:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16541; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:32:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:32:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3447DA8B.D2B earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:37:15 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Schneider, EPRI References: <199710140954_MC2-23D8-A86E compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qQUGq.0.K24.cT-Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear all, Does anyone know where to write to get the EPRI report, and for how much? Thanks, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 15:44:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17954; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:36:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:36:37 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3420005C.F8BFA601 ihug.co.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:33:16 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Speed of X-rays through superconductor Resent-Message-ID: <"F-eq72.0.KO4.pX-Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Anyone seen: > http://www.webleasing.com/~jon/welcome/door.html > at first look. Yes, thank you for the nice keyword search discovery. Those keywords were indeed there. Unfortunately, the site has *nothing* to do with the subject here; it's some slacker with a small sound studio in Florida who named his company "Faster Than Light Superconductor, Inc." because it sounded techy and trippy. I wasted several minutes there. Sorry about the tone, but I found nothing there of interest to Vortex-L. Please post the exact URL of the page of interest if I'm wrong. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 15:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17882; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:36:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:36:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3447E82D.1D1AA79A microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:05:25 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMODers; PLEASE READ! References: <3.0.1.32.19971017124807.0072dcb8 palacenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EQTJH.0.IN4.eX-Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jack DeMule wrote: > > Hi PMOD folk, > > (I hope I'm not cluttering up your mail boxes. I sent > this twice with a modest sized image attached, but no joy. > So, here it is sans data.) > > At 23:27 10/16/97 -0400, Keith wrote: > >The "barkhausen bumps" are actually the ringing down > >of this fast pulse, each bump representing the round trip delay What do you refer to as Barkhausen bumps? I refer to slight bumps on the NORMAL current ramp you get when you charge any ferrite based coil. I do not refer to Barkhausen bumps when I talk about the first two current ramp changes in my test setup. > >time through the wire wrapped rod. In fact, this type of slow wave transmission > >line was a commonly used delay system in early radar and computing circuitry. > > After examining the timing of the bumps, and their shape, > I still believe that they are the result of a resonant circuit. > Most likely formed by the coil, and parasitic capacitances (mainly that > of the mosfet.) Using the model for an IRF510, 1 Ohm of resistance, > and 300uH of inductance, the attached wave form was derived using > SPICE. The coil has a max inductance of 3.9uh, even less due to the 0.5mm spacing. The inductance with 8 turns is less than 1uh. The DC restsiance of the coil at 30 turns is 0.078 ohms. > (A remarkably similar, damped ringing waveform, was the result...) > > Best Regards, > JD Hi Jack, Haven't played with SPICE for years. The initial current ramp is inductance related (the 30, 15, 8 turn test shows that) and the negative current ramp is domain alignment related. Why do you have a problem with that? Its just plain old physics. Ferrite permeability peaking and fallout with frequency and the delay of the B field from the applied H field is old engineering news. The FCRT circuit is just designed to measure the effect. There is no OU ........ YET. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 16:19:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02714; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3447EF6C.8E14A1C0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:36:20 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Air Core Inductor Equation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"inVGH1.0.Fg.l--Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Does anybody have a good equation for a single layer air core inductor where the wires are spaced 1 wire diameter apart and the length is longer than the diameter. I am currently using : L = (N^2 r^2) / 254(0.9r + l) L = Inductance in micro henries N = 30 turns r = 5mm l = 30mm The coil I am using in the FCRT is : 30 turns of 0.5mm copper wire spaced 0.5mm (1.0mm pitch), 10mm in diameter, 30mm in length. The above gives a inductance of approx 2.6uh. Total length of wire in the coil is 0.942 mtr. At 87.81 Ohm / Km, the coil resistance is 0.083 ohms. I believe because of the wide inter turn spacing that the inductance is lower. Can anyone assist? -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 17:02:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04871; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:50:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:50:06 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3447EF6C.8E14A1C0 microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:53:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Air Core Inductor Equation Resent-Message-ID: <"UR1RI2.0.0C1.ic_Hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson asks: >Does anybody have a good equation for a single layer air core inductor >where the wires are spaced 1 wire diameter apart and the length is >longer than the diameter. I am currently using : > >L = (N^2 r^2) / 254(0.9r + l) This is the standard approximate formula for a single layer air core inductor. It is exact in the limit of large l/r, and it is still close to exact for l = diameter = 2r. >I believe because of the wide inter turn spacing that the inductance >is lower. The inter-turn spacing is already included in the formula via one N in the numerator and the l in the denominator. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 17:05:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06630; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3447FB87.FE3CBEB4 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:27:59 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Air Core Inductor Equation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q1Yl-3.0.Gd1.Pl_Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > > Greg Watson asks: > >Does anybody have a good equation for a single layer air core inductor > >where the wires are spaced 1 wire diameter apart and the length is > >longer than the diameter. I am currently using : > > > >L = (N^2 r^2) / 254(0.9r + l) > > This is the standard approximate formula for a single layer air core > inductor. It is exact in the limit of large l/r, and it is still close to > exact for l = diameter = 2r. > > >I believe because of the wide inter turn spacing that the inductance > >is lower. > > The inter-turn spacing is already included in the formula via one N in the > numerator and the l in the denominator. > > Michael J. Schaffer HI Michael, Thanks for the confirmation. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 17:19:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07962; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3447FF50.223919D3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:44:08 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: FCRT coil taps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MwslA3.0.Dy1.5-_Hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, The locations of the coil taps in circuit 1 are incorrect. I have correct to reality in circuit 2. The junction of the current sense resistor and the damping resistor are moved to select the coil tap desired. The 8 turn test gives larger domain avalanche induced Emf into the sense coil even though it is further away from the centre of the coil than in the 15 or 30 turn test. The inductance and DC resistance of the coil taps are as follows : 30 turn = 2.6uh 0.081 ohm 15 turn = 1.1uh 0.041 ohm 08 turn = 0.5uh 0.022 ohm -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 17:51:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27374; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:45:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:45:51 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:44:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710172344.SAA07981 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Abstract/Re: "Excess Energy" and patents To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Tstolper aol.com Resent-Message-ID: <"d3bPz1.0.eh6.-Q0Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 17, 1997 Tom, Glad you caught the mention of the Putterman patent. Was wondering if someone would pick it up. Just happen to have the abstract in my back pocket. I am including an edited comment by my friend, the patent informant. "Here's an interesting tidbit from the US patent office on a new patent issued on August 19th. Seems work that is supported by copius data is not deserving of a patent but others work without supporting evidence is. Ah well this just goes to convince me further that the patent realm has very little bearing on reality." The last line of the abstract claims the feasability of fusion and generation of neutrons when tritium or deuterium is the gas in sonoluminescence--- i.e. excess energy and neutrons by fusion. What bugged the friend was that earlier substantiated claims (earlier then 1994, the date of the application)) for fusion were denied patent(s) and here, a unsubstantiated feasibility claim for fusion is included as part of a granted patent (5,659,173) similar in manner the CETI patents have (with substantiation(?)). Sonoluminescence effects may be related to the claims by the Griggs and Potapov devices. Sincerely, -AK- Foward: Patent #5,659,173 : Converting acoustic energy into useful other energy forms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- INVENTORS: Putterman; Seth J., Sherman Oaks, CA Barber; Bradley Paul, Northridge, CA Hiller; Robert Anthony, Los Angeles, CA Lofstedt; Ritva Maire Johanna, Los Angeles, CA ASSIGNEES: The Regents of the University of California, Oakland, CA ISSUED: Aug.=A019, 1997 =A0 FILED: Feb.=A023, 1994 SERIAL NUMBER: 201113 =A0 MAINT. STATUS: INTL.=A0CLASS (Ed.=A06): G01T 1/20; U.S. CLASS: 250-361.C; 376-102; 376-149; 422-020; 422-052; 422-128; FIELD OF SEARCH: 250-361 C ; 376-102,149 ; 422-20,52,128 ; AGENTS: Merchant, Gould, Smith, Edell, Welter & Schmidt; ABSTRACT:=A0=A0 Sonoluminescence is an off-equilibrium phenomenon in which the energy of a resonant sound wave in a liquid is highly concentrated so as to generate flashes of light. The conversion of sound to light represents an energy amplification of eleven orders of magnitude. The flashes which occur once per cycle of the audible or ultrasonic sound fields can be comprised of over one million photons and last for less 100 picoseconds. The emission displays a clocklike synchronicity; the jitter in time between consecutive flashes is less than fifty picoseconds. The emission is blue to the eye and has a broadband spectrum increasing from 700 nanometers to 200 nanometers. The peak power is about 100 milliWatts. The initial stage of the energy focusing is effected by the nonlinear oscillations of a gas bubble trapped in the liquid. For sufficiently high drive pressures an imploding shock wave is launched into the gas by the collapsing bubble. The reflection of the shock from its focal point results in high temperatures and pressures. The sonoluminescence light emission can be sustained by sensing a characteristic of the emission and feeding back changes into the driving mechanism. The liquid is in a sealed container and the seeding of the gas bubble is effected by locally heating the liquid after sealing the container. Different energy forms than light can be obtained from the converted acoustic energy. When the gas contains deuterium and tritium there is the feasibility of the other energy form being fusion, namely including the generation of neutrons. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 18:16:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00420; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:11:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:11:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:09:29 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Schneider, EPRI Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710172110_MC2-244F-7B2 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"K6uXB3.0.O6.8p0Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Rich Murray asks about the EPRI report. I think it costs $200. EPRI's address is: EPRI 3412 Hillview Avenue Palo Alto, CA 94304 See: www.epri.com - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 18:21:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01007; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:13:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:13:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:09:41 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: overdoing it Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710172112_MC2-2446-7455 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"TOLtD.0.MF.3r0Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: Gene, I'm all in favor of a positive attitude, but the title of this lecture is simply ridiculous. Far from winning any "wars", cold fusion is still in grave danger of evaporating. You should be particularly aware of that fact in the wake of the failure of the Ragland Triode cell, no? Let me take the liberty of responding for Gene, who is probably exhausted. I think Scott misunderstands. Gene said that we won *scientifically*. He refers to "scientific and commercial developments," and experiments "replicated by dozens of laboratories and published in peer-reviewed literature." Nobody can deny that these replications exist, and that by strictly defined scientific terms, we won by a wide margin back in 1990. *Politically* we have been beaten into a pulp. Scott is absolutely right, CF is in grave danger of evaporating. But that is because of the irrational, hysterical opposition, it has nothing to do with science. I suggest you adopt a more conservative approach in your public presentations... When you go out and say stuff like the above, mainstream guys can't help but guffaw... Yes, that's the idea. We want people to laugh, poke fun, and raise controversy. That attracts people to the lectures. and rightly so... Rightly so? What do you mean, Scott? Are you suggesting that the results have *not* been widely replicated at high sigma? Have you found errors in the papers by McKubre, Miles, Storms or Mizuno? I doubt it! A person who guffaws at cold fusion either knows nothing about the experimental data or he does not understand the scientific method. In my opinion, your extremist claims are part of the reason that cold fusion can't get any decent mainstream funding anymore. CF cannot get mainstream funding because in the summer of 1989 Huizenga and the other hatchet men at the DoE launched a reign of terror, and a barrage of lies to discredit it. Scientists who talk about CF or try to publish papers are ridiculed, harassed and in some cases, fired. There was never any chance that CF would get mainstream funding. Why not back down a couple of notches and play it real straight and factual. If there is anything non-factual about Gene's claims I'd like to hear about it. I have been waiting for many years for scientists like Merriman to tell me why they harbor doubts about the experiments. They never respond, so I win by default. They have no reasons for their often-expressed doubts. Scott Little has no reason to doubt CF either, unless he thinks that his own failures indicate anything. Scott cannot build a hot fusion reactor or a Boeing 747 either, but I trust he does not doubt the existence of these machines just because he cannot replicate them. CF devices are small but immensely complicated, like incandescent lightbulbs, computer chips, or the surface of a catalytic converter. Rememeber that some of the best scientists in the world struggled for 20 years to make incandescent bulbs work. They look simple, and we have billions of them today, but solving the problem took a generation of very hard work. When Scott questions the existance of CF devices today, he acts exactly like the scientists of 1879 who said that Edison's bulbs did not exist. (Most scientists did say that, and of course, so did the Scientific American, the New York Times, and the rest of the establishment. It always does! Right, wrong or indifferent, all innovation and all new ideas are always trashed.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 18:35:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07391; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:31:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:31:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Inductor In-Reply-To: <3447FB87.FE3CBEB4 microtronics.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vmE3n3.0.Ip1.L51Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Greg, I often set up JFET oscillator, use known inductances and compare. Another good tool is grid dip meter ... it will show a fair approximation of resonance at loading. The 510 is not reperesentative of the modern day fast or low resistance parts. IGBTs are getting good and the APT 4080 is one I like, 80 milliohms and 450 V at 8 amps ... These parts require you to drive a 3k to 5 k pf gate load. IGBTs turn off fast. A germanium transistor, diode connected makes good low loss bridge element ... the lowest loss comes from synchronous rectification methods. J On Sat, 18 Oct 1997, Greg Watson wrote: > Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > > > > Greg Watson asks: > > >Does anybody have a good equation for a single layer air core inductor > > >where the wires are spaced 1 wire diameter apart and the length is > > >longer than the diameter. I am currently using : > > > > > >L = (N^2 r^2) / 254(0.9r + l) > > > > This is the standard approximate formula for a single layer air core > > inductor. It is exact in the limit of large l/r, and it is still close to > > exact for l = diameter = 2r. > > > > >I believe because of the wide inter turn spacing that the inductance > > >is lower. > > > > The inter-turn spacing is already included in the formula via one N in the > > numerator and the l in the denominator. > > > > Michael J. Schaffer > > HI Michael, > > Thanks for the confirmation. > > -- > Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 18:42:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08705; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:36:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:36:31 -0700 Message-ID: <34481266.14072868 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:05:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Initil current ramp is correct! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gn1O_2.0.s72.TA1Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have updated my PMOd page again with my latest findings. Here is a bit. Here is a table I have constructed to show the predicted coil current after 35ns using the 3 coil taps. I have assumed a current sense resistor of 0.01 ohm, a fet on resistance of 0.1 ohm and a stiff supply of 5Vdc. Coil Tap Coil H Coil Ohm Total Ohm Max A 1 Tc (A) 1Tc (Sec) A 35ns Actual 30 2.6uh 0.081 0.191 26.2A 16.5A 500ns 1.2A 0.8A 15 1.1uh 0.041 0.151 33.1A 20.9A 166ns 4.4A 4.0A 8 0.5uh 0.022 0.132 37.9A 23.9A 66ns 12.7A 10.0A I believe the actual measured current at Peak 1 speaks for itself. The initial current ramp is clearly based on the AIR CORE inductance of the coil and the above proves that the ferrite has NOT generated any significant back Emf into the coil before Peak 1. Peak 1 is the Ferrite's Critical Reaction Time! Now we reduce the fet on time to just less that the FCRT and trap the back Emf from the domains in a secondary coil instead wasting it by driving the coil's current negative. More to come. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 19:06:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14806; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 18:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34481377.C940E128 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:10:07 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Inductor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3OUAA1.0._c3.PH1Iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Greg, > > I often set up JFET oscillator, use known inductances and > compare. Another good tool is grid dip meter ... it will show a fair > approximation of resonance at loading. > > The 510 is not reperesentative of the modern day fast or low > resistance parts. IGBTs are getting good and the APT 4080 is one I like, > 80 milliohms and 450 V at 8 amps ... These parts require you to drive a > 3k to 5 k pf gate load. IGBTs turn off fast. A germanium transistor, > diode connected makes good low loss bridge element ... the lowest loss > comes from synchronous rectification methods. Hi John, I used the IRF510 as it was the best I could get off the shelf in Adelaide. I will check out your suggestions. Thanks. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 20:10:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29877; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:04:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:04:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199710180304.WAA18827 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: , vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:05:02 (-050 Subject: Re: 80% efficient thermopile??? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199708122158.OAA14302 mail1.halcyon.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"pvZeI.0.hI7.JT2Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Fred, > From: "Fred Epps" > To: > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:10:40 -0700 > I am the miscreant who promised Peter the plans on the 80% efficient > thermocouple and didn't deliver :-) I am going to scan off copies to him > today if he can decode GIFs on his computer. I will send you these as > well. Sorry I'm so late in this request, but if you still have the GIFs available, would you be able to send them to me? I'm waaay behind in digging through my saved email. :) -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 20:11:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA31007; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:07:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:07:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:07:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: INFO OVERLOAD In-Reply-To: <199709262238.PAA03033 Au.oro.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bGYqK.0.9a7.wV2Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I've just returned from the SPIE conference in Pittsburgh- this is robotics/optics/etc. related . I presented my own work- no one understood this-which is typical. Anyway , I worked MY ASS off to find , LURKING IN THE WOODWORK , a quasi-infinite set of NEW DISCRETE dithered or fuzzy trig functions .They are related to the Jacobian elliptic functions and , because of modern computer capabilities can be studied. I like vortex , because of its honesty, and wish to bring this to you. Please understand the FUNDAMENTAL nature of this - e.g. with any non-linearity the Fourier transform becomes (perhaps) the fuzzy counterpart (shades of Heisenberg). The study of non-linear systems is a big deal (witness Santa Fe,New Mex.). Re Chris- I will miss his unique ability to combine intelligence/humour and local advice on what goes on in his locale. Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 21:41:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17767; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:36:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:36:48 -0700 Message-ID: <34482FB1.57F7 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:40:33 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, kirk.shanahan srs.gov, design73@aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, rbrtbass pahrump.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, ine padrak.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, jonesse astro.byu.edu, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, drom vxcern.cern.ch, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, storms ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber aro-emh1.army.mil, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris acs.tamu.edu, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, droege@fnal.gov, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, perkins3@llnl.gov Subject: Ranque-Hilsch tube: vortex production of temperature and isotope separation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AHFPs.0.XL4.Vp3Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear all, I've lifted some information about a simple, remarkable phonemenon, appropriately enough, vortex based: the outside of a gas or liquid vortex becomes hotter and denser, while the center becomes cooler and less dense. Substantial temperature differences and even isotopic separation can be achieved with compressed gases. As a high school junior, in early 1959, I made some of these devices and ran them, loudly, on compressed air at the lab at the Pure Oil Co. in Port Neches, Texas, where my dad was a chemist. I won a first prize at a local science fair, which led to a four-year $ 2,000 yearly scholarship to M.I.T. Well! The thought has occured to me that this effect might create small temperature artifacts in flowing liquids. We all know, from stirring cream into coffee, or watching smoke swirl, how ubiquitous and curiously stable vortex flow can be. What if, say, in the CETI 100:1 heat cell, as the electrolyte leaves the bead cell into the 10-fold smaller area of the outlet tube, vortex flow causes the perimeter of the flow to be 5 degrees C hotter than the center. Then a thermister located at that perimeter would give a false excess heat signal. Has anyone noticed any temperature differences from the perimeter to the center of flow at various locations in these systems? A similar effect might be that a hot, streamline of flow might extend from the bead cell for a distance into the outlet tube, enough to touch a thermister. Not only cold fusion, but many areas of biology and chemistry might be bedeviled by such unexpected fluid flow effects. Also, what about vortex flow in the hot plasmas generated by SIMS and ICP/MS-- could mass sepration be occuring efficiently enough to generate elemental and isotopic anomalies in the data? Might not complex, subtle, even powerful effects arise from electromagnetic, quantum, and relativistic processes? To SIMmer data stew may brew unexpectly rich broth. Separation Processes in the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube: A Review of the Main Points T.T. Cockerill 13 May 1994 http://t_cockerill_pc.sunderland.ac.uk/rhvtmatl/handout/handout.html I apologise for the abscence of diagrams in this text! Introduction Initial Considerations Fluid Mechanics Temperature Separation Mixture Separation Applications Heating and Cooling Tasks Gas liquefier Isotope separation Conclusions References About this document ... Sat Feb 18 18:21:07 GMT 1995 Introduction The Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube is a device that separates a flow of gas into two streams. One of the outlet streams has a higher temperature then the inlet gas, and in the case of a mixture of gases, is enriched in the heavier components of that mixture. The other stream is cooled below the temperature of the inlet gas, and in the case of a mixture is depleted in the heavier components. By way of example, an airflow initially at 298 K and 7 bar, when expanded through a vortex tube might produce one oxygen enriched stream at 350 K and one nitrogen enriched stream at 270 K. The means by which the vortex tube operates are poorly understood. A number of attempts to explain its function have been made, but none with more than mediocre success. There is debate, even as to the basic physical mechanisms applicable to the tube. This paper summarises the work done to try to illucidate the vortex tube as part of my PhD project. The work is incomplete, as yet, and thus the conclusions that can be drawn are limited. Initial Considerations The behaviour of the vortex tube is rendered all the more remarkable by the simplicity of its construction. There are only four components : a cylindrical tube, an orifice, some tangential gas inlets and a valve; typically in brass. When arranged as shown diagrammatically in figure 1, they form a counter-flow vortex tube. This was the form of the device used by Ranque [1] and Hilsch [2] in their exploratory experiments during the 1920s and 1930s. An alternative, although slightly less effective configuration is that of the uniflow tube, shown in figure 2. Both tubes, and indeed any further variation on the design, work in a similar manner. A strongly swirling flow is induced in the tube by the tangential inlet nozzles. As the gas proceeds along the tube, a radial gradient in temperature and composition is generated with the warmer and heavy-component rich region towards the periphery. The orifice separates the inner and outer regions of the gas such that the cooled and light-component rich stream leaves through the orifice, whereas the warm stream exits past the valve. The relative proportions of gas leaving through the hot and cold exits can be controlled with the valve. It is the strong swirling of the flow that is responsible for both the temperature and mixture separation effects observed in the vortex tube. If a `vortex' tube were to be constructed in such a way that the swirl component of velocity was removed, for example by making the inlet nozzles parallel to the major axis of the tube, then no separation effect would be observed. Moreover, the magnitude of the separations is highly dependent on the `strength' of the swirl. The coupling between the swirl and the separation effects suggests that the fluid mechanics of the vortex tube have an important role to play in any attempt to understand the vortex tube. We will proceed by discussing the flow within the tube, and then summarise the progress that has been made in understanding and modelling both aspects of the tube. Note that most of the experimental results shown were taken on a 26 mm diameter brass vortex tube at Cambridge University Engineering Department. Fluid Mechanics A typical flow pattern for a counterflow tube is shown in figure 3. Notice that we can draw in a bounding streamline dividing the inner and outer flows. The radial and axial velocity components within the tube are mostly small in comparison with the swirl velocity. Of greatest interest are the swirl velocity profiles at various stations along the axis of the tube. Figure 4 shows swirl profiles, taken across a radius, at two stations in the 26 mm diameter tube. Near the inlet nozzles (z=50mm), the swirl velocity profiles, taken across a radius, are reminiscent of a forced vortex (solid body rotation). Further along the tube, near the valve (z=596 mm), the swirl has decayed substantially and gives a much `flatter' profile. Given the importance of the swirl in generating the separative effects, it seems reasonable to conclude that the majority of the separation occurs in the section of the tube near the nozzles. Temperature Separation The maximum and minimum temperatures that have been obtained from a vortex tube fed with air at 298 K and 7 bar are 423 K and 238 K respectively. These figures were not obtained simultaneously, and there seems no reason to prevent more dramatic changes from being obtained with improved tube designs That the temperature separation is produced by the sections of the tube near the inlet nozzles is confirmed by looking at the variation of the temperature of the cylindrical wall with distance from the inlet nozzles. The wall temperature is indicative of the temperature of the gas adjacent to it. Figure 5 shows such data for the 26mm counter-flow tube. A sharp rise in wall temperature is evident in the region from the inlet to 300 mm down the tube. The curve then levels off as the swirl velocity decreases and indeed begins to drop near the valve, 800 mm from the inlet. If a number data sets describing the variation of wall temperature against distance from the inlet/orifice in a variety of different tubes are normalised, then they are found to lie on a similar curve, as shown in figure 6. There is clear evidence of a similarity relationship. The temperatures of the outlet flows are found to vary with the proportions of gas leaving through the hot and cold exits. Let the mass fraction of gas leaving through the cold exit be . If data from a number of vortex tubes giving the variation of the temperature difference between the cold exit and the inlet gas as a function of is normalised, evidence of another similarity relationship is found. The result is shown in figure 7. Clearly, the temperature separation is a complex phenomenon. It is not surprising that analytic attempts to model it by a number of workers, for example Kurosaka [3] and Deissler and Perlmutter [4], have been only partially successful, failing to predict one or more of the above characteristics A sophisticated model is thus necessary to understand the temperature separation. A computational fluid dynamics (CFD) program has been written to solve the governing, Navier-Stokes equations that must dictate the behaviour of the fluid in the vortex tube. Using a finite-volume discretization, the steady state equations can be solved on grids of up to 200 by 200 points. No attempt is made to model the inlet nozzles, which are replaced with an annular slit giving an equivalent inlet mass flow and swirl. This makes the problem much easier to compute, and is not an unreasonable approximation as there is no evidence that the nozzles play any direct role in the separation, other than inducing a swirling flow. The effects of turbulence on the flow are accounted for by means of a standard turbulence model. Some success has been experienced so far. The computer code appears to predict the essential features of the vortex tube discussed above, both for the swirl and the temperature separation. A typical result for a uniflow type tube, computed over the domain of figure 8 is shown in figure 9. The results of the code have suggested a new analytical theory to explain the vortex tube. This is currently under development. Mixture Separation Fortunately, the mixture separation is much easier to understand than the temperature separation. Firstly it is worth noting that the mixture separation is observed in any non-homogeneous gas, to the extent that even different isotopes of the same are effected. The mixture separation is attributable directly to centrifugation effects. Essentially the vortex tube operates as a compact high speed centrifuge, flinging the heavier components of a gas mixture to the periphery of the flow. A reasonable analytical model can be obtained. Assuming that the flow is in simple radial equilibrium, in other words that the radial pressure gradient is provided by the swirl velocity we can write dP/dr = (P Vrexp2)/r where the symbols have obvious meanings. Treating the flow in the tube as a binary mixture, a simple analytic expression for the variation of concentration of each component as a function of swirl velocity and radius is obtained. Evaluating this for a number of experimentally determined swirl profiles in an air driven, 26 mm radius tube, gives curves for the variation in oxygen content of the air as shown in figure 10. These compare well with the experimental concentration data of Linderstrom-Lang [5]. Applications Heating and Cooling Tasks Gas liquefier Isotope separation Heating and Cooling Tasks There is an obvious application of the vortex tube to heating and cooling tasks (e.g. Airconditioning, refrigeration). Unfortunately, it is handicapped by its low efficiency; less then five percent of the energy used to compress the gas is available in the form of the temperature difference between the outlet streams. A clearer understanding of the tube's operation may allow design changes that remove this handicap. Gas liquefier A novel design for a gas liquefier is shown in figure 11. While the design would be inefficient compared to conventional techniques, this might be offset by its low capital cost, especially where low quantities of liquefied gas are required. Again improvements in tube efficiency would make the design more viable. Isotope separation Applying the simple model of mixture separation developed above, to a vortex tube fed on uranium hexafluoride, gives a separation factor of 1.001. This lies between the value for a single stage diffusion separator, and that for an ultra-centrifuge. Thus the tube may have application in isotope separation. Conclusions 1.Temperature separation in the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube is a complex phenomenon. The usual analytic techniques cannot deal with the tube. It can be modelled adequately by computational fluid dynamics techniques. 2.Mixture separation in the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube is a relatively simple phenomenon. It can be attributed mostly to centrifugation. 3.The vortex tube might have application in heating and cooling tasks and in isotope separation. All these areas would benefit from further attention. References 1.Ranque, G. Experiences sur la detente giratoire avec productions simultanees d'un enchappement d'air chaud et d'un enchappement d'air froid.; Journal de Physique et de la Radium, vol. 14 (1933), pp.1125-1155 . 2.Hilsch, R. The use of the expansion of gases in a centrifugal field as a cooling process; The Review of Scientific Instruments, vol. 18, no. 2 (Feb. 1947), p.108ff. 3.Kurosaka, M. Acoustic streaming in swirling flow; Journal of Fluid Mechanics, November 1982, p.139ff. 4.Deissler, R; Perlmutter, M. Analysis of the flow and energy separation in a turbulent vortex; International Journal of Heat and Mass Transfer, vol. 1, pp.173-191. 5.Linderstrom-Lang, C.U. Gas separation in the Ranque-Hilsch Vortex Tube; International Journal of Heat and Mass Transfer, vol. 7 (1964), pp.1195-1206. Figure: A counter-flow vortex tube Figure 2: A uniflow vortex tube Figure 3: Streamline pattern in a counterflow tube Figure 4: Swirl velocity profiles in the 26 mm counterflow tube Figure 5: Variation of cylindrical wall temperature with axial position in the 26mm diameter counterflow tube Figure 6: Normalised variation of cylindrical wall temperature with axial position in a number of counterflow tubes Figure 7: Normalised variation of temperature drop between inlet and cold gas with cold fraction in a number of counterflow tubes Figure 8: Computational Domain Figure 9: CFD result for temperature field in a uniflow tube Figure 10: Predicted variation of oxygen content with radius Figure 11: Gas liquefier using vortex tubes Ranque-Hilsch Tube Related Sites An interesting page about a school project which includes some instructions on building vortex tubes : http://scorpio.kent.edu/~aurorahs/vor.html . Another related (?) project is at http://alcom.kent.edu/ALCOM/K12/Sam_Net/Spring95/Aurorams.html Prof. B. Ahlborn has some useful stuff to say : http://www.physics.ubc.ca/Brochure/profs/ahlborn.html A project involving some efforts to model the vortex tube at ATL: http://www.ifdt.uh.edu/atl/control.html A commercial site detailing Vortex Tubes available for purchase: http://www.newmantools.com , including some interesting descriptions of how the vortex tube works along with some very nice diagrams. (Thanks to Tom Neumann for letting me know about this) Some background and a picture of a vortex tube http://physics.umd.edu/deptinfo/facilities/lecdem/f4-24.htm Reference to a Scientific American 'Amateur Scientist' article that describes the construction of a tube (this is quite large) : http://www.thesphere.com/sas/SciAm/Index/52-index.html Back to my Home Page Back to the University of Sunderland Home Page Tim Cockerill, University of Sunderland es0tco environment.sunderland.ac.uk Boye Ahlborn, Professor Diplom. Kiel (60); Dr. rer. nat., Munich (64) Visit. Sci., Max Planck, Garching (70-71) Killam Senior Fellow, Visit. Prof., U. of Washington, Seattle (78) Visiting Sci., Rutherford Lab, UK (79) Visiting Prof., Siegen, Germany (72) Research Interests Turbulent motion in fluid matter is one of the few unresolved problems of classical physics. It affects flow in blood vessels and pipelines, drag of cars, efficiencies of propellers, combustion process in automobile engines and heat transfer in stars. This problem receives scant attention in the physics community and lags badly in use of results of other branches of physics. My aim is to study turbulent systems through experiments and theoretical models using tools and methods of plasma physics and of other branches of physics. The hallmark of turbulence is the existence of distributed coherent structures: randomly rotating fluid segments (called eddies or vortices), randomly translating fluid segments and stagnant regions. Thus we study dynamics of individual vortices, interactions of eddies with their environment, and the statistics of turbulent vortex systems. The intention is to first solve practical problems and then obtain sufficient parameters for a complete thermodynamic description of the "turbulent state of matter". Examples of practical problems are optimal circulation of fluid in large seaweed farms, propulsion of fish, and temperature separation in the Ranque Hilsch (vortex) tube. More general studies include: production of vorticity generation of drag and thrust in simple geometries dynamics of vortex streets and individual eddies statistics of grid turbulence (resonance) absorption emission of sound by vortices Selected Publications "Enhancement of Spanwise Coherence in Laminar Vortex Streets", Physics of Fluids, A4, 1851-53 (1992), Marcel Lefrancois and Boye Ahlborn. "Vortex Shedding Signatures Upstream of Circular Cylinders", Fluid Dynamics Research 9, 107-117 (1992), Mae Seto, Boye Ahlborn and Marcelle Lefrancois. "Energy Storage and Exchange Mechanisms in Turbulent Media", J. Non Equilibr. Thermo Dynamics", 16, 319-341 (1991),B. Ahlborn, M. Seto and Marcelle Lefrancois. "Fish without Footprints", J. Theor. Biol. 148, 521-533 (1991), Boye Ahlborn, David G. Harper, Robert W. Blake, Dorit Ahlborn and Michael Cam. "Statistics of Surface Flow Structures on Decaying Grid Turbulence", P. Fluids 29, 2388-2397 (1986) http://www.newmantools.com/vortex.htm#vorlink Vortex Tube Phenomenon The vortex tube was discovered in 1930 by French physicist Georges Ranque. Vortec was the first company to develop this phenomenon into practical, effective cooling solutions for industrial applications. Here's how it works. Fluid that rotates about an axis -- like a tornado -- is called a vortex. A vortex tube creates a vortex from compressed air and separates it into two air streams -- one hot and one cold. Compressed air enters a cylindrical generator which is proportionately larger than the hot (long) tube where it causes the air to rotate. Then, the rotating air is forced down the inner walls of the hot tube at speeds reaching 1,000,000 rpm. At the end of the hot tube, a small portion of this air exits through a needle valve as hot air exhaust. The remaining air is forced back through the center of the incoming air stream at a slower speed. The heat in the slower moving air is transferred to the faster moving incoming air. This super-cooled air flows through the center of the generator and exits through the cold air exhaust port. ITW Vortec's vortex tube products have been solving industrial cooling problems for years. Using only filtered, factory compressed air as a power source, they convert ordinary compressed air into two air streams -- one hot and one cold. At 100 PSIG (6.9 Bar) and 70° F (21° C) inlet temperature, a vortex tube can produce refrigeration up to 6000 BTUH (1512 kcal/H) or temperatures to -40° F (-40° C). BTUH (kcal/H) capacity based upon 70° F (21° C) compressed air dried to a dewpoint of -40° F (-40° C). * Airflow temperature can be dropped up to an additional 20° F (11° C). Colder airflow temperatures are produced by adjusting the needle valve to increase the hot airflow. The needle valve is located in the hot exhaust. Vortex Tubes produce less airflow at colder temperatures and have less BTUH (kcal/H) capacity. More complete information, a thesis by by Tim Cockerill, is at: http://t_cockerill_pc.sunderland.ac.uk/rhvtmatl/oldindex.htm Tim Cockerill, Research Fellow, Renewable Energy Centre, Priestman Building, School of the Environment, University of Sunderland, Ryhope Road, Sunderland, SR2 7EE, United Kingdom es0tco environment.sunderland.ac.uk Vortex Corp., 10125 Carver Road, Cincinnati, OH 45242-9976 RT Balmer, "Pressure-driven Ranque-Hilsch temperature separation in liquids," Trans. ASME, J. Fluids Engineering, 110, p. 161-4, June, 1988. "Hilsch Tube", Scientific American, Nov., 1958, p. 145. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 22:09:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21433; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:05:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:05:13 -0700 Message-ID: <34485B0A.CC keelynet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:45:30 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Reynolds Files] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------426CB4043E5" Resent-Message-ID: <"sqnCn2.0.kE5.8E4Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------426CB4043E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gnorts! Figured some of you would be interested in this... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 --------------426CB4043E5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <34485A06.437 keelynet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:41:10 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Puthoff aol.com Subject: Reynolds Files References: <971002131938_-328705112 emout07.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hal! Finally posted the Reynolds files on the aether being a dilatant matrix...remembered you wanted to read them, they are quite interesting....also added some new files you might like to check out.. http://www.keelynet.com/files.htm (files by directory) http://www.keelynet.com/energy/reynold1.txt http://www.keelynet.com/energy/reynold2.txt http://www.keelynet.com/energy/reynold3.txt http://www.keelynet.com/energy/inertia1.txt Hope you find them interesting if not entertaining....... Did you see the antigravity claim from USC?? that was withdrawn?? Using a superconductor and RF coils to produce a gravity type beam?? Very interesting...I have a friend in Seattle who told me back in the 1960s, one of the local newspapers published a story and photo of a cylinder floating in the air...on top of this cylinder were a series of coils mounted on the rim and pointing inward at something like a 45 degree angle...the claim was the inventor had discovered AG....nothing else was heard from him and no followup story... I think he created an artificial neutral center as Keely talked about (and which Dr. Dan Fry in White Sands Incident described http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/deckcorr.htm ) Much like a goat following a carrot suspended in front of it, an artificial neutral center, when RESONANT and sufficiently powered will cause the mass aggregate neutral center to FOLLOW IT, no matter the direction.....we'll see, huh....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 --------------426CB4043E5-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 17 23:58:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07863; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34485012.2C8B earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 00:58:42 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, design73@aol.com, bockris@acs.tamu.edu, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, storms ix.netcom.com, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, droege fnal.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, ceti onramp.net Subject: Arata & Zhang:some previous work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iGAIB.0.nw1.hp5Iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear all, I lifted some of Jed Rothwell's comments from Tuesday and Wednesday, October 16 and 17, 1997: [question from Barry Merriman] The main question I would have for F. is: after P&F's 12 years of research, where is their demonstration that their effect is real? You do not need to ask Martin that question. I can answer it. In science, we do not demand that a researcher demonstrate that his own discovery is real. Instead, we demand repeated, independent, high sigma replication by other scientists. Indeed, even when a scientist demonstrates his own effect, we do not believe it -- and we should not. Pons and Fleischmann demonstrated the boil-off in 1992. They showed a video which constituted visual proof that CF excess heat is real. Close examination of the anode, cathode, and cell configuration told you everything you need to be sure there is massive excess heat. You did not need the instrument readings. (Of course, the data is even better proof.) However, neither I nor anyone else would be convinced by this video. We demand independent tests by other scientists, using other types of calorimeters in other labs. That is the gold standard of proof. We got it in late 1989 and 1990, from Bockris, Miles, McKubre, Mizuno, and in the accidental replications at MIT, Harwell, and Cal Tech. Nothing is more convincing that a positive result produced accidentally by people who despise cold fusion and who will say or do anything to destroy it. Later, we got additional proof of tritium F. Will at the National Institute, Claytor and others. In other words, the proof that Barry demands was published seven years ago. I sent him copies of some of the papers. He has refused to comment on them, and I expect he will continue to refuse to comment on them. He demands "proof," but he refuses to look at the proof! He ignores the scientific method which is based upon INDEPENDENT REPLICATION, and HIGH S/N RATIO. He wants show business instead. Naturally, if Pons and Fleischmann performed such a demonstration again, Barry would do a back flip and join the scientists who complain about grandstanding demonstrations. You should have heard the howling back in 1992 when they showed the video! When we mail Barry papers describing rock solid replications, he demands a demonstration instead. When we give him a demonstration, he will suddenly remember how science is supposed to work and he will demand replications instead. It is a fixed game of Three Card Monte. I cannot win, and I refuse to play anymore. The rules will never cease to change, the goalposts will be always be moved. The only thing that will convince Barry and other professional scientists will be the commercial development of cold fusion and the demise of the DoE and the hot fusion program. Barry does not think that professional scientists can make repeated stupid mistakes. He does not think they can go for years ignoring data and adding 4 ml of water when they are supposed to add 2 ml. Yet the history of cold fusion is littered with equally stupid errors. The people at Cal Tech arbitrarily dismissed a 1 deg C temperature rise. Kevin Wolf saw a massive transmutation in his cathode: the appearance of radioactive elements. This was confirmed by some of the best labs in California. Instead of associating this with similar cold fusion phenomena, he made up a fairy tale about WIMP particles from space. Barry should examine his own standards and behavior. He refuses to look at the data I mailed him. He said recently that we should judge Pons and Fleischmann by the commercial success or failure of cold fusion, instead of looking at objective scientific data. I would add that a tiny level of excess heat is unconvincing and useless. You can always find a reason to doubt it. Ed [Storms] is getting about 1.2 watts excess, with 12 watts input, which is pretty respectable. I do not think that a build-up of salts could produce this, especially since it is fluctuationg, but he is going to do some tests to be sure. That's ~12 watts I*V input, ~13.2 watts output. He uses a closed cell with a recombiner. He is going move the cathode into a more sensitive dual-mode static & flow calorimeter. Tom Stolper asks if Fleischmann had anything to say about Arata, and have they been in contact. Sorry, I do not recall the subject came up. I have reviewed my notes . . . The only thing he said about helium that I recall, is that you need a kilowatt level reaction before you can get around the contamination problem. People will always say it is contamination until you produce helium in higher concentration than air, which is 5 ppm helium. Strictly speaking, helium is proportional to energy, not power. Theoretically you can build up to a high concentration with a tenth-watt reaction in a perfectly leak-proof flask. In real life you need high power compared to the electrolysis gas flow, and you need to build up the concentration in a reasonable length of time. Tom adds: It seems to me that Arata & Zhang have produced some of the best results in the field. Well, it looks good, although much of the helium detection is over my head. I reserve judgement until someone replicates. The problem is that the experiment is difficult and expensive and Arata is secretive, so I doubt anyone will ever try to replicate. I'm surprised that the NHE people didn't try to use all their connections in the Japanese government and scientific establishment in a full-court press attempt at catching Arata's interest and persuading him to cooperate with them. He is a difficult man too work with. He is hard to persuade, the NHE isn't good at persuading, and by now it has nothing to offer. Comments by Murray: I find these items discouraging. I notice that Storms is claiming a 10% excess heat, the same as McKubre reported in the August, 1994 EPRI Final Report, about his work from 1989 to 1994. Storms has published detailed suggestions on how to ensure that the Pd-D cell will work, yet there is no improvement in energy yield. This suggests to me that an unsuspected artifact is involved. I just suggested one possibility just tonight in a post about the Ranque-Hilsch effect, in which vortexes quickly become hot on the perimeter and cooler in the center. Only a determined effort to root out any possible artifacts will uncover them. I am very glad Storms is double-checking his system and tightening up his calorimetry. Arata's He-4 reports are very enticing, and seem to confirm an attractive general theory by Scott and Talcott Chubb. I am dismayed to hear Arata described as "secretive" and "difficult". His reports suggest that He-4 is quite difficult to extract even from 2-6 micron Pd particles. If true, this would cast serious doubt on other claims of He-4 production. Last week, I studied Arata and Zhang's "Achievement of an Intense Cold Fusion Reaction," in August, 1990 Fusion Technology. It is a very strange paper: for instance the first line of the abstract is, "Intense neutron generation at a rate of >10exp8 n/s in cold fusion was achieved when neutron emission "avalanches" were observed as deuterium forcefully penetrated into a large 2-cm-diam X 5-cm-long palladium cathode." while the last sentences are, "This experiment proves that an unknown nuclear fusion process that generates a large amount of heat, as proposed by others, does not exist. Instead, the heat is actually reaction heat generated by the explosive absorption and exhaustion of the deuterium in the palladium cathode, caused by the on-off effect." So, where do all those neutrons come from? Page 97, "Thus, we conclude that a strong deuterium fusion reaction accompanies the avalanche phenomenon." On page 96, they estimate that the burst production of 10exp8 neutrons generates ~ 0.12 mW excess heat...Figure 2b shows a 10exp7 n/s neutron emission that lasted 3 h." Their "Reproducible "Cold" Fusion Reaction Using A Complex Cathode," was in Sept., 1992 Fusion Technology. They hoped to maximize cold fusion reactions by providing as many microdefects as possible: page 287, "The sprayed palladium layer has numerous microdefects such as cracks, porosity boundary layer defects, lattice defects, dislocations, uneven surfaces, localized strain, etc." Page 291, "...substantially activate the absorption and discharge of deuterium. This was shown by the detection of a substantial exothermic reaction in the air. The authors believe this to be the reaction heat from oxidation of deuterium in the palladium surface layer." They did long runs, collecting putative evidence for neutron emission: page 290, "The highest measured peak pulse was 420 counts in 5 minutes...the highest observed rate of neutron generation from the cathode was ~ 1.2 X 10exp2 n/s." So, this is much, much less than in the previous study. Page 290, "After 240 h of dischage, the deuterated Pd(Ni) cathode was withdrawn from the electrolytic cell into the air, and a strong heat discharge, with energy ~ 2 kJ, was observed (Fig. 7)." So, neither study had any careful calorimetry, or measures of deuterium loading. No use was made of veto counters. As Storms wrote in "Review of the "Cold Fusion" Effect, J. of Scientific Exploration, 1996, page 20: "Regardless of expectations, the signals are small and frequently very close to background. Such small and random-like emission has generated much debate as to whether any neutrons are being emitted at all. As a result, most recent studies have gone to great effort to isolate the signal from background using various methods. False signals are known to come from cosmic-ray showers, electrical noise pickup, electrical discharge wtihin the counter, and natural radioactivity in the environment. Some types of counters are worse in these regards than others. Lowering the background by using shielding or veto counters is now common. The use of dual or multiple counters is another way to reduce random false signals." I am not at this point inspired with confidence in the work of Arata and Zhang. I will in the next week offer a critique of the transmutation claims of Mizuno and Ohmori. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 18 01:18:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA17529; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:14:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:14:50 -0700 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 02:14:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) In-Reply-To: <3446B851.ECD pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-Xn6A.0.kH4.u_6Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 17 Oct 1997 ehammond pacbell.net wrote: >> >>If your working with scalar fields. There was an experiment that >>showed that scalar fields are 20x more biologically active than the >>same field in normal EM. >> WHICH experiment, WHEN, WHERE, WHO's!!! Can we have a bit of reference (for those working with scaler fields?) thanks.. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 18 09:09:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02306; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Arata & Zhang: some previous work Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:40:59 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971018160930248.AAA196 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"wMxTA1.0.yZ.YvDIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rich quotes at length from earlier reports by Arata & Zhang, comments by Jed and Tom Stolper, and concludes: > I am not at this point inspired with confidence in the work of Arata and > Zhang What is missing from this critique is any evidence that he has actually read and studied Vol. 23 (Special Issue) of the Journal of High Temperature Society of Japan, containing 55 pages devoted to "Solid-State Plasma Fusion (Cold Fusion)" by Arata & Zhang. This is the work of interest, not the quoted other work of Arata & Zhang. Jed, in recalling conversations with Fleischmann about helium production, indicates that kilowatt power levels are required before He production rises to the point far enough above contamination levels for reliable detection. Quoting from the A&Z abstract: Using a quarupole mass spectrometer, significantly large amounts of ...4He and 3He ash were detected from deuterated palladium samples that had produced large amounts of anomalous energy (200-500 MJ/cm^3) experiments during Cold Fusion experiments ( approx. 5000 hour). the helium was released from samples after the observation of excess energy, and only when each sample was heated to a high temperature (over 1000 C) in a high vacuum (about 3 x 10^-9 Torr)....the laws of physics require that this helium could not have diffused from any outside source other than the Pd metal sample...Because there is no known process that can account for the diffusion of the large amounts of helium into the interior locations of the various samples at the levels that were measured, the only possible explanation for the helium being trapped in this fashion is that it was trapped within each sample after it was first produced as the nuclear "ash" from an electrolytically induced (Cold Fusion) deuterium nuclear reaction. This is quite a different situation from expected evolution of gases in a normal cell, so the Fleischmann comments do not directly apply. Mitchell Swartz, well known to Vortex for his meticulous scrutiny of all claims and assertions, featured this work in the last issue of Cold Fusion Times, summarized this report and in conclusion said "As a result, it is demonstrated crucially as the first experimentally clear proof that new type deuterium nuclear reaction which directly produce 4He as a main reaction product, take place inside solid". A&Z did not search for neutron emission. They confirm the heat and helium ash signatures of a nuclear reaction. They propose a theory in which localized high energy plasmas can form within highly deuterated palladium crystals, thereby promoting fusion reactions and the production of heat and 4He and 3He. The whole experiment is complex, including the reaction cell and the specially built quarupole mass spectrometer apparatus used to measure the helium. It is not casually replicated. Rich may not be inspired with confidence, but he has not studied the crucial paper and should refrain from distributing comments and critiques until he has done so. He is showing progress by asking about how to obtain the EPRI report on McKubre's work at SRI. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 18 10:18:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24643; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:10:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:10:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3448E089.7DDD earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:15:05 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mikec snip.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arata & Zhang: some previous work References: <19971018160930248.AAA196 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GO3bb3.0.u06.erEIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks, Mike Carrell, for your comments. Is that long Arata & Zhang paper in English? The journal is not at LANL library. Could you mail me a zerox of it-- I'd be happy to pay costs-- then I will vet it in detail. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 18 19:42:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20047; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:32:23 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Okay, Scott, make a crankshaft Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710182234_MC2-245A-D54E compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"H-Cdh3.0.9v4.o7NIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: Further, despite repeated attempts, I have failed to observe any experimental evidence of it. That isn't surprising, and it does not prove anything. Mel Miles has been a professional chemist and electrochemist for 30 years. He had to work intensively for 5 months before he got the CF effect to work, and he had to try many different types of palladium. Nobody ever said this experiment is easy. Since you, Scott, have no background in electrochemistry, the likelihood of your pulling this of by yourself with no help from professionals and no hands-on training is about as high as your chances of survival if I operated on your appendix. Jed: There is no obvious reason to question the excess heat results of McKubre. He was very careful in his procedures and he left no obvious stone unturned. However, there is a great significance in the fact that he himself could not reproduce the excess heat results on the 2nd go-around. What does "2nd go-around" mean? McKubre performed hundreds of experiments over a period of five years. As I recall, approximately 80 of them produced excess heat. Some of the most successful were towards the end of the program. In fact, that essentially kills the validity of his earlier results. That's nonsense! One of Martin Fleischmann's other discoveries remained unreplicatable by the other experts in his field for years. Many valuable industrial secrets remain unreplicatable for decades despite the best efforts of highly paid experts at rival corporations. REPLICABILITY is the most important aspect of experimental science. It is ONE important aspect, yes. But it is often dispensed with. Otherwise none of us would believe in the atom bomb or the top quark. McKubre did achieve significant improvements in replicability. In any case, many experiments have remained difficult to reproduce for a very long time. For 20 years, the glow of incandescent light was impossible to sustain for more than a few minutes in most laboratories, and nobody except Edison had any idea how to wire lights in parallel. Yet there was never any reason to doubt the existence of the incandescent effect; only the practicability of it. CF will never go anywhere until a relatively simple replicable experiment is devised which shows the excess heat effect. Obviously! Neither would the Diesel engine as it was back in 1905. It took billions of dollars (in today's money) and 34 years before we had Diesel locomotives. I keep comparing my CF experimentation experiences to my SC fabrication experiences. About 2 years after Paul Chu discovered the YCBO superconductor formulation that works at LN2 temperatures, I bought a piece of the stuff from the U of Wisconsin Chemistry Dept who were selling a kit that included a recipe for making your own YCBO superconductors. And if I can find $20,000 for Martin Fleischmann, and we can get some Type A palladium out of Johnson-Matthey which works well, and Martin's new idiot-proof cell design works, we can do the same for you. For that matter, you can go to the store an buy a $7 calculator wristwatch. That is technology so advanced it would look like magic to a person in 1940. You could not replicate the watch yourself starting with silicon. Not in a million years! But you can buy it. Someday you will be able to buy a working CF cell too. But first, a bunch of smart people may spend years research incredibly complex problems of surface catalysis, metalurgy, and a bunch of other complicated stuff that you and I could not make head or tail of. That's what it took to "crack" high octane gasoline in the 30's. That what it took to make semiconductors reliable from 1952 to 1970, and what it took to make reliable palladium catalytic converters. Hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of man-years of work. (Semiconductors, HTSC, and surface catalysis are closely related to CF.) My homemade YCBO superconductors worked perfectly the first time. So what? That is because homemade HTSC are easier to make than homemade CF. That proves nothing! Here is list of things you can make at home: cookies; HTSC; six kinds of invisible ink; a primitive battery. Okay, here are things that you could never make at home: a Pentium processor; an industrial strength HTSC (nobody has figured out how to make one yet, despite billions of dollars in research); a secret code the CIA could not penetrate; a reliable Nicad battery. Some things you can make, and most things you cannot. Look around the room, look out the window. You will see thousands of objects that you could not fabricate yourself, even if you devoted the rest of your life to the task. You couldn't make the crankshaft in your car, you could not make the CRT you are reading these words on. (And if you think you could, ask Mike Carrell how difficult it is, and how "improbable" this technology is.) You have proposed a new and unheard-of standard of science: the "I can make it at home" test. If you can make it, it must be real; you can't, it is open to question. Well, by that standard our entire industrial civilization -- everything from thumb tacks, to traffic lights, to the Internet -- does not exist. You could not master or replicate even begin to understand in detail 0.001% of the technology your life depends upon. For that matter, suppose I could send you back to the year 1700 and plunk you down in the village of Kuka, on Yashiro Island in Yamaguchi Japan. You would look around and see only "primitive" tools. Nearly everything was manufactured on the island by from local materials by blacksmiths, woodcutters, stonemasons and other craftsman. You would find it impossible to replicate these tools. You would not even recognize most of them! If you attempted to use them for their intended purpose, that is, if you tried to move the stones and build the stone retaining walls that hold the terraced fields, or harness the oxen and plow the fields, or work the fishing boats, or cook a meal over an open fire using the kitchen implements, you would kill yourself in a couple of weeks. If you tried to build a stone retaining wall, the first heavy rain would wash it out. The retaining walls in Kuka have stood since 1600. No modern road engineer can hope to do as well. (You will find crumbling roadway retaining walls all over the island, and all over Japan.) No person living in any organized, literate society in the last 4,000 years could have mastered more than a tiny fraction of the skills needed to keep society functioning. The building and farming techniques used by so-called "primitive" peasants in China, Japan, England and France were incredibly complicated and difficult to master. Building engineers in the U.K. constructed one Stonehenge-scale arch, using only manpower and hand tools. Mechanical engineers built a working half-scale replica of the Newcomen's steam engine. Both groups struggled mightily and rediscovered much lost knowledge. They learned that no technique ever becomes "easy" to replicate, not even 3,000 year old techniques. We think X or Y is "easy" to replicate only because we have had a great deal of practice doing X or Y. CF is new; nobody has any practice in it, so nobody is good at it yet. When they sell it in kits, it will be as easy as paint-by-the-numbers. Because, of course, when you buy a cathode from Johnson-Matthey, *they* have done 99.999% of the hard work required to produce the CF effect. They have thousands of metallurgical recipes, developed over 200 years. I keep harping on about the incandescent light because it is a classic case and because it is closely related to CF. Just last week I heard something an interesting from Ed Storms. The CF cathodes from the NHE were heat treated in a vacuum. The NHE scientists thought it was a clean, high vacuum, but Ed found traces of carbon and other evidence that it was probably contaminated with oil. One of the biggest problems developing the incandescent bulb was . . . insufficient vacuums and vacuum pump contamination! Edison bought the best pump in the world, found it wasn't good enough, and improved it. (Actually, he did not exactly buy it. He ordered it, took delivery, and then he did not pay. The vendor threatened to sue as I recall. That was Edison's way of doing business.) It will take the same kind of skill and innovation to make CF work. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 18 19:43:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19122; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:35:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:35:41 -0700 Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:32:04 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Fleischmann's view of helium Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710182234_MC2-245A-D54D compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"m9KNm2.0.bg4.x7NIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Mike Carrell and some others here misunderstood what I said about Fleischmann. I did not write much, so things got a little off the track. Mike writes: Jed, in recalling conversations with Fleischmann about helium production, indicates that kilowatt power levels are required before He production rises to the point far enough above contamination levels for reliable detection. Oops. What he said -- and what I thought I reported -- was that the experiments will remain open to question until the helium concentration exceeds that of air. He meant that the skeptics will use contamination as an excuse to ignore the results. This is like saying that as long as we depend on calorimetry instead of a self sustaining device the skeptics will say we are making a mistake measuring the heat. Fleischmann himself accepts the helium results, especially from Miles. He and I both think that Miles is one of the most honest human beings we have ever met. The fact that Miles is a professional scientist makes his honesty even more amazing to me. It's like finding a polite gangster or a jovial undertaker. Miles has the best helium results I know of. I do not see how anyone can doubt them. As he shows statistically, the likelihood of these results being caused by random contamination error is less than one in a million. In other works, it is about as likely as the event that you will toss a coin and get heads 21 times in a row. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 18 21:14:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24189; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 21:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710190407.AAA08090 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Okay, Scott, make a crankshaft Date: Sun, 19 Oct 97 00:14:37 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"Lzf5O.0.sv5.jUOIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote aptly about Scott's standard: >You have proposed a new and unheard-of standard of science: the "I can >make it >at home" test. If you can make it, it must be real; you can't, it is open to >question. Well, by that standard our entire industrial civilization -- >everything from thumb tacks, to traffic lights, to the Internet -- does not >exist. Shall we call this the Little Standard? :) Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 00:02:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16786; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:58:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 23:58:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3449A29F.668D earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 01:03:11 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu, halfox slkc.uswest.net, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, dennis@wazoo.com, bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, ine@padrak.com, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, davidk@suba.com, trivee@topaz.kiev.ua, storms ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, z@ccyber.com, jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb aol.com, perkins3@llnl.gov, "76002@1473"@compuserve.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, BennettMiller mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris@acs.tamu.edu, droge@fnal.gov, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Mizuno, Ohmori, Enyo et al: SIMmer data stew for dubious brew Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z7WfA3.0.C64.h-QIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 19, 1997 Dear all, A number of remarkable electrolytic transmutation reports have been given by a group of researchers at Hokkaido University. I will examine these by focussing on a recent work by T Ohmori, M Enyo, T. Mizuno, Y Nodasaka, and H Minagawa, "Transmutation in the Electrolysis of Light Water-- Excess Energy and Iron Production in a Gold Electrode," Fusion Technology, March, 1997, 31, p. 210-218. It derives from earlier work, T Ohmori and M Enyo, "Excess Heat Evolution During Electrolysis of H2O With Nickel, Gold, Silver, and Tin Cathodes," Fusion Technology, Nov., 1993, 24, p. 293-295. I will call these "Transmutation" and "Excess". I spent some days picking over "Excess" in November, 1995, five years ago, finding so many flaws that I left a message on Ed Storms' answering machine suggesting that it might be a deliberate hoax. Even the abstract has a typo, confusing K2CO3 as K2SO4. Apparent excess heats were claimed from 0.2 to 26%. No attempts were made to determine the loading, if any, in the unusual cathode metals. With a low current density of 8.3 to 25 mA/cm2, the runs fall into the range thoroughly debunked by Zvi Shkedi et al, Bose Corp., "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Farady Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells, Fusion Technology, Nov., 1995, 28, p. 1720-31. They did not even bother to cite "Excess" in their 15 references. Shkedi ran four light-water Ni cells at 180 to 600 mA for up to 4 days a run with an average power accuracy of 0.6 mW. All released H2 and O2 were carefully recombined and returned to the cells. Assuming 100 % Faraday efficiency, as did most studies of this reaction, he found apparent excess power of 15 to 37 %, reduced to zero when the actual recombination efficiency was factored in. Shkedi also ran, but did not describe in detail, 154 palladium D2O cells, with the same null results. Confirming was a report by JE Jones et all at Brigham Young U., "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100 % during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells," J. Physical Chem., 1995, 99, p. 6973-79. They also did not cite "Excess" in their 20 references. They used low current densities of 1-2 mA/cm2. "Excess", as did other similar studies, seemed to find more excess heat with K2CO3 than with Na2CO3. Jones wrote on page 6978: "In agreement with a recent report (20) showing that different electrolytes produce differing bubble sizes in aqueous solution, our experiments show that the difference between NaCO3 and K2CO3 as electrolytes probably is due to differences in interfacial properties of the solutions at the electrodes. The H2 bubbles were smaller when K2CO3 was the electrolyte than when Na2CO3 was the electrolyte in the same cell. Smaller bubbles allow better mobility of gases in the electrolyte and contact between the electrolyte and the electrode surface, thus allowing more frequent reaction of dissolved gases. When detergent was aded to the Na2CO3 electrolyte, the bubbles became much smaller, did not adhere to the electrode, and resulted in about the same rate of apparent excess heat as was observed with the K2CO3 electrolyte." This shows how subtle and unexpected the artifacts can be in these deceptively simple experiments. "Transmutation", submitted Jan. 29,1996, blindly builds on this sandy foundation. Five fused quartz (SiO2) cells were run a week at 1 A between Pt mesh anode and Au cathodes, 5 or 10 cm2 area, with Na2So4, K2CO3, KOH, K2SO4, or H2SO4 electrolytes, a current density of 100-200 mA/cm2. Page 211, "The counter electrode was a 1 X 7 cm 80-mesh platinum net...The working and the counter electrodes were placed at the bottom of the cell to minimize the temperature gradient in the electrolyte solution by vigorously stirring with H2 and O2 bubbles evolved from these electrodes." Hardly a more ideal set-up for promoting recombination and reducing Faradaic efficiency could hardly be devised. Of course, they found apparent excess heats of 4 to 22%. Page 212, "Measurement of the current efficiency was made repeatedly at a given time during the electrolysis, the result of which was 100.6, 100.1, and 101.1%. This fact shows that there is no conceivable possibility of the recombination of H2 and O2 as another cause of the excess energy production." Interestingly, they found about the same results for Na2SO4 and K2CO3, I suppose, because of the "vigorously stirring". More exciting, they found, (abstract) "In every case, a notable amount of iron atoms in the range of 1.0 X 10exp16 to 1.8 X 10exp17 atom/cm2 (true area) are detected together with the generation of a certain amount of excess energy evolution." AES was with 3.0 keV electron beam energy at 2.5 A current. One of the 12 runs with Na2SO4 was graphed twice, showing one O, two Pt, and three Fe peaks. They estimated Fe atoms occupied 44% of the top surface, about 100 Au layers, exposed by 5 minutes of Ar+ ion bombardment time. An EPMA image, scale not given, shows the Fe was distributed uniformly over the entire electrode. They estimated the Fe on this electrode was ~17 micrograms. On page 214, "Figure 8 shows the relationship between the total amount of iron atoms and the mean Rex [excess heat] obtained in evaery electrode/electrolyte system. Although the data were rather scattered, there seemed to be a linear relationship between these two parametaers. This strongly supports the notion that iron atom production is related to excess energy evolution." This seems to me a good case of attempting to extract correlations from random fluctuations. One of the highest heat values has one of the lowest values of Fe atoms. The straight lines drawn through the points seem very arbitrary, and for the cathode areas 5 and 10 cm2, are given the same slope, although the input energy density is obviously half for the larger area, implying half the slope. Moreover, so much is left undone. Why not a simple chemical extraction and assey to determine the exact microgram amounts of Fe on each gold plate? Why not introduce controlled trace amounts of Fe into the electrolyte to study deposition patterns and the accuracy of the measurements? What is the precision and sensitivity of AES in this setting? What might be the estimated errors of all the numbers claimed? Why not collect evolved H2 and O2 and recombine them to settle the Faradaic efficiency issue? Now, we come to the Holy Grail of cold fusion transmutation research-- isotopic anomaly-- put in the singular, since only Fe-57, normally 2.1% is the most substantial claim, 14.5%, seemingly a 7-fold increase. The usual ratio of Fe-57 to Fe-56 is 0.023 . SIMS is used with a 12 keV, 100 nA O2+ primary beam. Page 214, "The SIMS measurement was made with an electrode after the electrolysis in the Na2So4 solution...spectra of Na+, Al+, Si+, K+, Ca+, Ti+, and Cr+...Fe+. This is probably due to the high sensitivity of SIMS for these elements. The spectrum of Cs+ is attributed to a trace of cesium that remained in the vacuum chamber itself." So, it is not clear if this data refers to the same electrode studied by AES. It is not said whether SIMS was done on other plates, and whether any such data was comparable. Also, we know from the EPMA image that the Fe distribution is in tiny spots. Since SIMS operates by vaporizing micron size areas, it is crucial to know how many spots were studied, how they were selected, and how varied were the resulting data sets, 1 to 200 amu. So, clearly, we are being served a generous portion of data stew. Page 216, "The isotopic content of magnesium, silicon, potassium, calcium, titanium, chromium, and iron...Table 3...As one can see, the isotopic contents of the elements other than iron are in agreement with these natural isotopic abundances within the limits of error. Therefore, these elements can be regarded as the impurities accumulated from the electrolyte solution." Well, in that case, why doesn't the Fe have the same source? They argue that the Fe produced is "at least one to two orders of magnitude" greater than all Fe sources in the solution and the electrodes. However, this production data is highly suspect, based on estimates from AES data, not based on direct chemical extraction and physical weighing, not checked by adding controlled Fe sources to the electrolyte, not qualified by error estimates, and with no pre-run SIMS scan of the cathode. Furthermore, a huge source of impurities, including Fe, is totally ignored, the SiO2 cells in which electrolysis operates for a week. Jed Rothwell in Infinite Energy #11, Nov-Dec., 1996, in a long, detailed review of McKubre's EPRI Final Report, page 64, in the box "Fifty Sigma Results" quotes McKubre's EPRI Perspective, "The conditions in the successful cells were not entirely under experimental control because the closed cells slowly leach silica and other materials from the anode and the cathode and its supports as well as from the cell walls..," and, from the box, "Overkill Example," "Other solid parts are Al2O3, SiO2, and PTFE [Teflon], which are considered in this analysis to be nonreactive." Nonreactive? So, indeed, in "Transmutations", the actual Fe present can readily be accounted for by obvious impurity sources. In a feeble way, the issue is mentioned, page 215, "The content of the particles with mass number 54 is also increased to some extent-- perhaps because of the mixing of Cr-54." Table III has a footnote about Ni-58 in Fe-58. The argument is pressed that the ratios of FeO for mass 73 and 72 confirm the ratio of mass 57 and 56, in Fig 11. "Although the plots are scattered, these two ratios can be seen on the whole to be in agreement. Therefore...not due to FeH+ formation. From this fact, one may safely say that "heavy iron" was produced and that its production was the result of some nuclear transmutation ocurring by the light water electrolysis." Whew! We just barely got by that one! Now, "Transmutations" does contain a veritable pot of data stew, Fig. 9, the entire SIMS spectrum of the uppermost layers of the gold after electrolysis in the Na2SO4 solution. Suitably doubled by zerox, it is a wonderful sight, a Himalayan vista, the main reason I selected this work for study. Prominent peaks, with notes: Na-23 100,000 intensity counts. Cs-133 10,000 (Ni-58)2OH? (SiO)3H? The Cincinatti Group's four ICP/MS scans by Robert Liversage offer no clues. >1,000 counts Al, Si, K, Ca, Ti, Cr, Fe-56, TiO. Could Fe-56 be (Si-28)2 or CaO? >100 counts Mg, "Fe-57", FeO, ZrO (106), Au, some others. Could Fe-57 be (Si-28)2H or CaOH? ~50 counts O2, Zr-90, Rh, In, Br, Kr, Pd, Xe, Gd ?? Why isn't there more S-32 from the Na2SO4? Given all the possibilites for diatomic molecules, hydrides, nitrides, and oxides, there is plenty of room to prove just about anything. That's why data stew is so seductively tasty. Hey, experts, since we have O2, why not Si2? That'd explain away a lot of Fe! "Transmutation" establishes to my mind the amount of attention we should pay to the other recent papers by this team on transmutation. In the Cincinnati Group's ICP/MS data, Infinite Energy #13-14, we can sip some more data stew. In the four scans, we find the computer program in the first two scans assigns to mass 57 in large part 5,052 counts and then in small part 24,390 counts as ArOH, while in the last two runs, it gives mass 57 as in huge part an unknown with 2,882,095 counts and then also in huge part 446 counts. Ar is very plentiful, since it is the carrier gas in the apparatus. Should we not leap at this as more proof of the transmutation production of Fe-57? Clearly, the computer data analysis program is overwhelmed even by the simplest scan, #1 the unprocessed reagent blank, listing large unknown counts for these masses: 30 2,216,930 35 288,002 42 45,836 74 43,215 238 738,673 I spent hours today fooling around with all that data, getting nowhere, and that itself is the significant result. George Miley's famous report, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," 1996, has a "Typical low resultion SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers in the cell)," which after doubling via zerox, indicates a ratio of mass 57 to 56 of about 200 to 3,000, about .075, far more than the original 0.023. R Bush and R Eagleton, "Evidence for Electrolytically Induced Transmutation and Radioactivity Correlated with Excess Heat in Electrolytic Cells with Light Water Rubidium Salt Electrolytes," Trans. Fusion Technology, Dec., 1994, 26, p. 344-54, has a more adaquate pyrex closed cell with an internal platinum black recombiner, at 1.0 mA/cm2, but gives no data about the run history, except to say that the total excess heat for Cell 53 is (4.0 +- 0.8) X 10exp19 MeV. He does give four SIMS graphs: for mass 57 vs 56 we, after the obligatory doubling of the graphs via zerox, find pre-run values, about 60,000 to 300,000, ratio .2, and post-run, 200 to 6,000, ratio .03. So, the pre-run ratio is many times more anomalous than the post-run. Now, that's efficient research! No need to even run the electrolysis! This is a much more significant result than the claimed transmutation of rubidium to strontium, eh? Kidding aside, Bush and Eagleton deserve credit for publishing the only pre-run SIMS data I've heard about. In my surveys, I have not noticed any evidence as to the actual loading achieved in nickel or gold. But nor have I found any claims that null results are due to using inferior sources of nickel. The experiments are simple. No secret recipees are invoked. Yet, there are no independent replications, and it's getting to be years. So, at this point, after all this hassle, there seems to me to be no convincing evidence that low energy nuclear transmutations exist. Wayne Green's Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion) # 23, Sept., 1997, has an abstract by Prof. Hiroshi Yamada, Dept. Electrical Engineering, Iwate U., Morioka 020, Japan: "Products on Gold-plate Cathode in Water Electrolysis System (poster presentation) In an Au/H2O electrolysis system with an Na2SO4 solution, the electrolysis was carried out for 16-40 days with a current density of 0.5 A/cm2. The elements on the gold-pate cathode were identified by means of secondary ion mass spectrometry and X-ray photo-electron spectroscopy. A large amount of carbon and iron were observed to have been deposited on the gold-plate." Any takers? Rich Murray rmforall earthlink.net Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 07:12:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21335; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:08:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:08:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:08:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710191408.JAA19607 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Jed's Standard Resent-Message-ID: <"mB16u.0.HD5.THXIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, you have chosen a truly unfair standard to apply to cold fusion experimentation. It goes something like this: Anybody who gets positive results in a cold fusion experiment is a great scientist, learned in electrochemistry, and skilled in the laboratory. Anybody (like myself) who repeatedly tries cold fusion experiments and does not observe positive results is an amateur, lacking the necessary knowledge, and lacking the necessary skills. Not only is this an unfair position for you to adopt, it also makes it virtually impossible to have a productive discourse with you. You have achieved an exceedlingly narrow-minded vantage and your opinions are thus cast in stone, totally inflexible, totally predictable. You attempt to make fun of my "make it at home" standard by claiming that I couldn't make a crankshaft, a Pentium processor, a CRT, etc. Again, you are so narrow-minded that you are blind to the underlying issues here. I could easily make a crankshaft that would work for a while. It would be noisy and it would self-destruct in a short time but it would work. I couldn't make a whole Pentium but I could readily make a single transistor, thus proving the underlying principle to be valid...the rest is just engineering. At our lab, I could also make a crude CRT with relative ease. Something that would put a beam of electrons on a phosphor and allow it to be steered with voltages applied to plates. A couple of years ago, for example, I made an x-ray tube in about an hour by cracking the glass off a flashlight bulb and mounting the bare filament in a vacuum chamber with an anode plate a few cm away. It worked great. No, I can't make the perfected version of these technologies that is the result of man-centuries of development but, in every case, I can make a crude working version that demonstrates the underlying principles. For the forseeable future, I will continue to try to observe the cold fusion effect and other excess energy phenomena in the EarthTech laboratory. If you have anything productive to contribute to this effort it is most welcome. Otherwise, I'd appreciate a little slack...we're on the same side, remember? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:09:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26219; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:03:33 -0700 Message-ID: <344A2185.5956 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:04:37 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard References: <199710191408.JAA19607 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z6trU1.0.WP6.45YIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > (snip) > No, I can't make the perfected version of these technologies that is the > result of man-centuries of development but, in every case, I can make a > crude working version that demonstrates the underlying principles. > Hear, Hear, Scott! I would guess that if you went back through the "Amateur Scientist" section of "Scientific American" - say, back to 1900 - you could make a very impressive list of devices and apparatus that you COULD make in your lab. I wonder just how many fundamental principles would remain unaddressed by this list of "amateur efforts"? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:18:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01174; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019111340_1734494119 emout15.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Storms' XSH Resent-Message-ID: <"SUfDh3.0.FI.6FYIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Thanks for the news that Ed Storms was getting more heat power out of his palladium-cathode cell than total electrical power (V*I) into the cell. I'm impressed. But was it a steady, continuous 10%? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:18:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28881; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:28 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019111351_174072231 emout01.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Arata & Zhang: some previous work Resent-Message-ID: <"nZUeW3.0.B37.IFYIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a post of Oct. 18, 1997, Rich Murray discussed two old articles by Arata & Zhang, one from 1990 and one from 1992. They're obsolete. Arata & Zhang have moved on, have improved their results. In 1990, Arata & Zhang didn't even think that excess heat was real. In their 1992 article, they did mention it in the abstract, where they claimed reliable evidence for a new type of heat generation, but they didn't emphasize it in the body of the article. By 1994, they did. It's good news that Arata & Zhang saw many fewer neutrons in 1992 than in 1990. Neutrons are bad. The fewer neutrons the better. I agree with Rich that neutron claims are dubious. Personally, I don't believe them anymore (not that I've studied all of them). Excess heat is another matter altogether. (By the way, the scholarship to MIT that Rich won would be worth about $10,000 per year in today's money, maybe even more considering that room-board-tuition has outpaced general inflation.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:20:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28893; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:31 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019111345_744271911 emout17.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Excess Heat vs. XSH Resent-Message-ID: <"oz8QU2.0.s27.DFYIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, You asked me to drop the acronym, on the grounds that it was used by Steve Jones and other extreme skeptics. Well, ok, at least in posts responding to yours. But how about retaining it for the titles of posts? It seems like a natural and handy abbreviation to me. Did the extreme skeptics really invent it themselves, or did it just appear in a spontaneous way in 1989? In titles or headlines, the acronym has the advantage of being eye-catching, which can be useful when one has to go down a long list of headers. Like you, I think that excess heat has been firmly established and that it's the main event. Why not emphasize it? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:21:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01227; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:14:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019111357_1789525799 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Evaporated Little Post Resent-Message-ID: <"I3LVG3.0.5J.KFYIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, In a post of Oct. 17, you responded to Scott's comments on Gene's forthcoming lecture at Temple University . Where did Scott post those comments? I missed them. What was the title of Scott's post? Maybe it was in a thread that I wasn't following. I hope that it wasn't a breakdown in my email system. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:38:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA32370; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:34:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:34:29 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:32:49 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdca4$41bbb860$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FnI4Q.0.iv7.4YYIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, October 19, 1997 8:14 AM Subject: Jed's Standard >Jed, you have chosen a truly unfair standard to apply to cold fusion >experimentation. It goes something like this: > > Anybody who gets positive results in a cold fusion experiment is > a great scientist, learned in electrochemistry, and skilled in the > laboratory. > Hear, Hear. I'm wondering if Jed has joined the ranks of the hot fusion folks who have been getting femtowatts of energy out of gigawatts input since Rutherford saw transmutation of nitrogen into oxygen with alpha particles ca. 1915, thanks to photography and the Wilson Cloud Chamber. Then when Cockcroft and Walton finally built a particle accelerator capable of about 500 Kev and "fissioned" Boron and Lithium with protons in 1927 they thought that "fusion" energy was just around the corner. Seems that that corner has an 70 + year Radius. :-) > Anybody (like myself) who repeatedly tries cold fusion experiments > and does not observe positive results is an amateur, lacking the >necessary knowledge, and lacking the necessary skills. Sounds like a neighbor that owned a Hudson back in the 40's. :-) > >No, I can't make the perfected version of these technologies that is the >result of man-centuries of development but, in every case, I can make a >crude working version that demonstrates the underlying principles. > >For the forseeable future, I will continue to try to observe the cold fusion >effect and other excess energy phenomena in the EarthTech laboratory. If >you have anything productive to contribute to this effort it is most >welcome. Otherwise, I'd appreciate a little slack...we're on the same side, >remember? We gave Jed slack with his 200 foot Bungee Cord tied to 150 foot tower. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 08:47:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00376; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:42:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 08:42:09 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:37:07 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: My work ... and Jed's Standard and Scott In-Reply-To: <344A2185.5956 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pxYC8.0.j5.GfYIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., There is no single black-and-white answer to any question involving the human condition. A little background; When I first make a circuit and its works perfectly I look to see what I did wrong. The rough rule of thumb is "it will screw up or I will make errors at least three times". I built the USAF system which 'decodes' brain waves to allow operator to "fly" a motion simulator with their EEG. See May 1994, Discover magazine article "Brain Powered" by Bennett Davis. The fist operating one channel unit took about 3 months. In 6 months we were collecting data. The next three years brought us to a tarcking 3 channell system. It is still in use today, nearly continuously with only small modification from 1992 to present. It is UGLY! It is never featured in pictures and it is an open rack with 20 cards some wire wrapped and some soldered. But it works. I worked for almost a year to get a reproducible gravity modification. The work is still new, the effect is in the 2% range and if ANY part of it goes out of spec then it does not work... and there is a lot to go out of spec. I built NASA video clean up circuit that took many many tries but it fianlly workd and the USAF double-sticky-foam-taped it into a nice cabinet that had the balance of the system in it. It ran for the balace of the effort and finally the whole thing was declassified so I can now talk about it. I made an invention in 1968-1969 that none of the big companies in the field wanted because it was too simple and too cheap. It would be embraced today, but was not then. The point is there are many many real world reduced to practice bodies of work I have been involved with ... dome at the time seemed science fiction. Some I can easily point to and say "See .. you CAN decode one aspect of brain waves". Some I cannot speak of at all because they are either classified or it is work I have done for other clients and is confidential. some of it ... on the surface ... seems like everyone would jump at .... but I have no takers, I will give you two examples: 1] I have a system which will phyiscally attract and hold against gravity, or repel, non ferrous metals such as silver, copper and aluminum. I have a USAF report showing this is so and this was circulated to over 30 DoD branches. This is circa 1983. Be great for sorting trash, if nothing else. No takers. 2] I have a simple method wherein I use an inexpensive material at about 0.75 cents [yes, less than one cent] a square foot and with no adhesive you can put it on nearly any surface, glass, painted drywall, wood, and it will support 6 ounces with 20" by 20" sheet.... I have a can of tuna fish hanging from such a piece now. Although is does not fit any nice neat pigeon hole it is sort of like tape... but there is no adhesive and when you are done with it it is so biologiaclly intert you could eat it ... it wouuld not be much different than any roughage .. or chop it up and plant corn on it ....or just re use it. No takers. So: No black and white. John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 09:07:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02823; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:00:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 09:00:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971019115949.0072fab4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:59:49 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: My work ... and Jed's Standard and Scott In-Reply-To: References: <344A2185.5956 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4o0GM3.0.yh.HwYIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:37 AM 10/19/97 -0400, John wrote: > > Dear Vo., > > 2] I have a simple method wherein I use an inexpensive >material at about 0.75 cents [yes, less than one cent] a square foot and >with no adhesive you can put it on nearly any surface, glass, painted >drywall, wood, and it will support 6 ounces with 20" by 20" sheet.... I >have a can of tuna fish hanging from such a piece now. Although is does >not fit any nice neat pigeon hole it is sort of like tape... but there is >no adhesive and when you are done with it it is so biologiaclly intert >you could eat it ... it wouuld not be much different than any roughage .. >or chop it up and plant corn on it ....or just re use it. No takers. > Although force is often considered for such adhesives, one important parameter is the total BOND ENERGY, that is, the integral under the curve of the force times the distance before the bond actually breaks. Hence, although most people think ionic bonds are the STRONGEST, they are not, because they act over angstroms, but van de Wals bonds - often dismissed -- can interact over micrometers, and as a result it is these bonds which give rise to the adhesion of adhesive tape which is greater than the most powerful ionic bonds (e.g. the mineral mica, whose leaves can be blown away by the breath off of the mineral, ~35-50 ergs/cm2(*)). (*) function of the degree of hydration state. :. Do you know, John, the bond energy of the material and how it compares to such tapes? Sounds like a good invention, like many of the others you kindly shared. Thanks. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 10:30:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12828; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:04:09 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Jed's Standard Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710191307_MC2-2464-BDF0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"YtJwm3.0.M83.dAaIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: Jed, you have chosen a truly unfair standard to apply to cold fusion experimentation. It goes something like this: Anybody who gets positive results in a cold fusion experiment is a great scientist, learned in electrochemistry, and skilled in the laboratory. Anybody (like myself) who repeatedly tries cold fusion experiments and does not observe positive results is an amateur, lacking the necessary knowledge, and lacking the necessary skills. Life is truly unfair! You could practice doing open-heart surgery on cats for years. I guarantee you will end up with nothing more than a pile of dead kitties. You do not have the skills, unless you have been through pre-med. It took surgeons 150 years to develop heart surgery techniques. You cannot master them by yourself. If you tried to build and fly your own ultra light airplane (without a kit), you would kill yourself. Nobody becomes an electrochemist by ESP. Melvin Miles had *decades* of experience, and look how long it him to master CF! Look how many cathodes he went through. Arata was making palladium filters for the Japanese hot fusion program in 1952. How many Pd samples have you run, anyway? Five? Your chances of success with random samples of Johnson Matthey Pd is roughly 20%, assuming you make no errors in electrochemistry or surface preparation. Your chance of success with Pd from most other suppliers is zero. You can see the cathodes swell, bend and fall apart. I am not the only one who says CF is much more difficult that it looks. Last week Martin Fleischmann repeated, for the umpteenth time, that he has always insisted it is terribly difficult and he wishes people would listen to him. Until the experts learn to characterize the material, mass produce it, and package it, CF will remain a hit-or-miss experiment. It appears that Ragland's end-run technique is not panacea, but perhaps some other short-cut will emerge. Not only is this an unfair position for you to adopt, it also makes it virtually impossible to have a productive discourse with you. You have achieved an exceedingly narrow-minded vantage and your opinions are thus cast in stone, totally inflexible, totally predictable. I have read the literature and I have some inkling of how difficult this is, how many things can go wrong, and how incredibly knowledgeable people like Fleischmann, Storms and Miles are. I say that scientific research in a new field where multiple, unknown parameters are at work, is an inherently difficult enterprise requiring deep knowledge and experience in chemistry, physics, and experimental technique. That is not a narrow minded view. It is the conventional view of scientific research. If you poll a hundred scientists I expect 98 of them would agree with me. I myself have not begun to master the knowledge required to do electrochemistry, but I do know how do some other things that take years of practice: I can speak Japanese reasonable well and I can write long and complicated programs with a team of programmers. Let me say categorically that no ordinary person could master such skills by himself, puttering around at home. If you think you can, then you are either a world-class genius like Wilbur Wright or a fathead who has no idea how difficult other people's jobs are. You attempt to make fun of my "make it at home" standard by claiming that I couldn't make a crankshaft, a Pentium processor, a CRT, etc. Again, you are so narrow-minded that you are blind to the underlying issues here. I am not making fun of anything. I could easily make a crankshaft that would work for a while. It would be noisy and it would self-destruct in a short time but it would work. I doubt it! Even Wilbur and Orville Wright never tried to make their own propellor shafts, and the ones they had made at a specialty shop in Dayton kept cracking. They made their own engine, but they stopped short at crankshafts and propellor shafts. I do not think you are more capable than they were. Besides, what do you mean you could "easily make" one? Do you mean that you could start with iron ore and forge a shaft? Do you mean you could take iron and make steel out of it? Or, if I gave you sophisticated modern tools, you could cut the ready-made steel into the right shape? I couldn't make a whole Pentium but I could readily make a single transistor, thus proving the underlying principle to be valid...the rest is just engineering. If this was 1950 you could not. The first working transistor was made in 1948, after 20 years of theoretical and experimental research, but the device was not characterized properly until 1952. CF has not yet been properly characterized, so you cannot do it yet. Unless you happen to be as good at science as the people at Bell Labs. At this stage, CF requires a combination of skill and intuition built up over many years by people who have been doing similar work. At our lab, I could also make a crude CRT with relative ease. Something that would put a beam of electrons on a phosphor and allow it to be steered with voltages applied to plates. . . . Okay, that was a bad example. Let's see you make a color thin film LCD computer display. My point is, many examples of modern technology cannot be made except in a sophisticated multimillion dollar factory by experts using high tech tools. Cold fusion, unfortunately, is an example. Johnson Matthey knows how to do fabricate the cathodes, and Miles knows how to operate them, but you don't. Maybe if you keep practicing for as long as he did, and you go through as many cathodes as he did, you might learn. No, I can't make the perfected version of these technologies that is the result of man-centuries of development but, in every case, I can make a crude working version that demonstrates the underlying principles. You can demonstrate some underlying principles, but not others. You cannot make a crude working version of an fission reactor or an atom bomb, even if it were legal. You cannot separate uranium isotopes in your basement. You could not build a gas turbine engine, or a roll of color photo film, or a quark detection machine. You do not have the slightest idea how Johnson Matthey prepares their special alloys. Even Martin does not know all the details. He said he would never try, it would take him and a crack team of metallurgists 5 or 10 years to learn how to do it. The Japanese spent millions trying to figure out how J-M does it, and they go nowhere. They only managed to alienate J-M. For the foreseeable future, I will continue to try to observe the cold fusion effect and other excess energy phenomena in the EarthTech laboratory. If you have anything productive to contribute to this effort it is most welcome. Sure! Read the literature and use the materials and techniques recommended by the experts. Learn from them in hands-on training. Learn a heck of lot about electrochemistry (much more than I know.) Essentially, you have to put yourself through a graduate level course in electrochemistry and material science. You have to master many of the techniques Ed Storms learned in grad school and at Los Alamos, and you have to develop an encyclopedic knowledge of materials, surface preparation, vacuum pumps, annealing, spot welding, open circuit voltage, and a hundred other topics. To get a sense of what I mean, ask Ed a question about any aspect of his work, and prepare to take notes. Or . . . you can wait until Martin or CETI or someone else packages the solution in a box that anyone can use. Otherwise, I'd appreciate a little slack...we're on the same side, remember? No, we are not. You are going around telling people that because you, Scott Little, cannot master CF on your own, that calls into doubt peer-reviewed papers written by people like McKubre, Miles and Fleischmann. You are saying that there is no difference between a skilled professional with decades of experience who works for five months, and some guy in his basement. You are setting your work as a standard to judge Martin Fleischmann! Who do you think you are? Can you do physics better than Hagelstein, or play the trumpet better than Armstrong? You can paint frescos better than Michelangelo, I suppose? It is as if I said "I can't make this program work the way Nicklaus Wirth says it should, he must be wrong." This kind of talk hurts the field more than it helps. If you are going to make such pronouncements it will better for CF if you get discouraged and quit. Francis J. Stenger writes: Hear, Hear, Scott! I would guess that if you went back through the "Amateur Scientist" section of "Scientific American" - say, back to 1900 - you could make a very impressive list of devices and apparatus that you COULD make in your lab. Yes, well, it is a shame in a way, but the world has changed since 1900. Technology has gotten immensely complicated. We can no longer fabricate or even understand most of the tools we depend upon. In 1900 a well educated person could master a large fraction of the physics and chemistry that made the world run. Today, you could not even familiarize yourself with a tiny fraction of it. In 1900 a skilled watchmaker (even an amateur) working on his own could build a mechanical clock that was almost as good as the national observatory time-keeper electrically driven pendulum clocks. Today, you could not build an atomic clock. You cannot even make a wristwatch anymore. That requires a semiconductor factory and crystal timers. (You can revive obsolete mechanical watch technology, but that isn't what I mean.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 11:31:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18904; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:26:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <199710191307_MC2-2464-BDF0 compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ThTto.0.Id4.u2bIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > To: Vortex > > Scott Little writes: > > Jed, you have chosen a truly unfair standard to apply to cold fusion > experimentation. It goes something like this: > > Anybody who gets positive results in a cold fusion experiment is a great > scientist, learned in electrochemistry, and skilled in the laboratory. > > Anybody (like myself) who repeatedly tries cold fusion experiments and > does not observe positive results is an amateur, lacking the necessary > knowledge, and lacking the necessary skills. > > Life is truly unfair! You could practice doing open-heart surgery on cats for > years. I guarantee you will end up with nothing more than a pile of dead > kitties. You do not have the skills, unless you have been through pre-med. Excuse me Mr Rothwell , are you comparing CF experimenters who allege they have produced over-unity energy with their devices and afterwards cannot describe a specific procedure to reproduce their alleged effects by associate level technicians to heart surgeons ? I just don't see the similarity. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 11:42:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23715; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:36:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:36:32 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:34:48 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdcbd$adeab0e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"L5iuo3.0.Oo5.lCbIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed seem's to do a bit of crowing these days. Next thing you know he will be trying to take credit for the Sunrise. :-) Just because he talked to the "venerable" Fleischmann who has all of those "credentials" and got lucky on a theory and an experiment that any naive sixth-grader could do, and still hasn't the foggiest notion of what physics is involved, he is strutting his stuff. Bullshit! There is something there I'm sure, but any fool should know that if the material (palladium) was as selective as claimed, the stuff would dwarf the price of Platinum and CF would NOT be worth the bother. Every "failure" can be a positive sign, especially with the Mills "Hydrino" results (forget the theory) walking all over electrolyzing water with Fleischmanns (mis) interpretation as a reference. Amazing how the ignorant can complicate technology. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 12:08:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28215; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:03:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:03:57 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Arata & Zhang: Murray, Rothwell, Carrell Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:03:13 +0000 Message-ID: <19971019190311.AAA28196 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Cd2HC3.0.mu6.RcbIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell quotes Jed: >Jed, in recalling conversations with Fleischmann about helium production, >indicates that kilowatt power levels are required before He production >rises to the point far enough above contamination levels for reliable >detection. Ed Wall: I find this intriguing and wish it could be clarified. Mike assumed it was not stated in reference to the work published in Journal of High Temperature Society, Vol. 23, because it seems unlikely that Martin would not have been unaware of it. Maybe the context of Jed's conversation with Martin (I hate to sound so familiar with such a great man) were more in line with easily replicated work. Maybe he is thinking that efforts are more productively directed in scaling up than in trying to obtain greater analysis and precision with present sized experiments. If anyone knows of any problems with the Vol. 23 experiment, please share them. I have a copy I can send to Rich Murray if no one else already has. Rich Murray writes: Last week, I studied Arata and Zhang's "Achievement of an Intense Cold Fusion Reaction," in August, 1990 Fusion Technology. It is a very strange paper: for instance the first line of the abstract is, "Intense neutron generation at a rate of >10exp8 n/s in cold fusion was achieved when neutron emission "avalanches" were observed as deuterium forcefully penetrated into a large 2-cm-diam X 5-cm-long palladium cathode." while the last sentences are, "This experiment proves that an unknown nuclear fusion process that generates a large amount of heat, as proposed by others, does not exist. Instead, the heat is actually reaction heat generated by the explosive absorption and exhaustion of the deuterium in the palladium cathode, caused by the on-off effect." So, where do all those neutrons come from? Page 97, "Thus, we conclude that a strong deuterium fusion reaction accompanies the avalanche phenomenon." On page 96, they estimate that the burst production of 10exp8 neutrons generates ~ 0.12 mW excess heat...Figure 2b shows a 10exp7 n/s neutron emission that lasted 3 h." Ed Wall: Wierd. Possible translation problem? The Vol. 23 article has numerous translation problems. Perhaps the "unknown nuclear fusion process.... as proposed by others" referred to some theory not apparent here. The clincher with the Vol. 23 experiment is that no He was detected before the sample was heated. If the sample was not deuterated (Fig. 14), or if no sample was in the vacuum chamber, no He is detected. Great pains are taken to accurately access and work around any possible He pollution problem, including design of a 'closed QMS.' From my admittedly limited experience, this paper is compelling evidence of transmutation.. This work, like the Corea work is screaming for replication. Too bad I'm not king (chortle). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 12:39:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24946; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971019153517.006cf8c4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:35:17 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: References: <199710191307_MC2-2464-BDF0 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"shWVS3.0.g56.14cIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:26 AM 10/19/97 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > >On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> To: Vortex >> >> Scott Little writes: >> >> Jed, you have chosen a truly unfair standard to apply to cold fusion >> experimentation. It goes something like this: >> >> Anybody who gets positive results in a cold fusion experiment is a great >> scientist, learned in electrochemistry, and skilled in the laboratory. >> >> Anybody (like myself) who repeatedly tries cold fusion experiments and >> does not observe positive results is an amateur, lacking the necessary >> knowledge, and lacking the necessary skills. >> >> Life is truly unfair! You could practice doing open-heart surgery on cats for >> years. I guarantee you will end up with nothing more than a pile of dead >> kitties. You do not have the skills, unless you have been through pre-med. > >Excuse me Mr Rothwell , are you comparing CF experimenters who allege they >have produced over-unity energy with their devices and afterwards cannot >describe a specific procedure to reproduce their alleged effects by >associate level technicians to heart surgeons ? > > >I just don't see the similarity. > >Jim Ostrowski > Jim: Actually, in this, there is some agreement with Jed. There is some similarity in that BOTH are very difficult to successfully achieve. I would, however, substitute total cardiac replacement with complete complication-free recovery, for the relatively more simple "open-heart surgery" to which Jed alludes, because the latter is not that difficult compared to cold fusion. Open heart surgery includes opening of the pericardium which was achieved by cavepeople, and would not even include survival. The correct positioning of an electrode within the proper solution, the proper drive conditions, and at the electrodes pi-notch, seems to be quite difficult, perhaps similar in level of difficulty of a cardiac transplant, having done, or assisted, both. BTW have seen operating rooms get quite "hot" during cardiac replacement when insufficient thermometry was undertaken, or insufficient redundant measurements taken. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz, ScD, MD From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 12:43:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25512; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:38:40 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Excess Heat vs. XSH In-Reply-To: <971019111345_744271911 emout17.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3LqzC3.0.YE6.I7cIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tom, and othere investigators of cold fusion: We use XSH to represent the words "excess heat". We now subdivide our pi-notches into product notches and excess heat notches (XSH-pi-notch). The helium-4 production branch is connected with the He-4-pi-notch. Hope that helps. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 14:04:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05127; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:00:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Fleischmann's view of helium Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 07:42:19 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971019210253747.AAA142 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"ckDs1.0.0G1.RJdIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I paraphrased Jed's comments about Fleischmann's comments about helium and got the shading of meaning wrong. I was responding to Rich Murray's lengthy post and didn't want to use an extensive quote at that point. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 15:38:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16034; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:30:21 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"-nu8t.0.Sw3.hheIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Time, gentlemen, and a bit of balm to calm. Scott's earnest efforts to duplicate some of the CF anomalous energy devices should not be met with scorn. They demonstrate a useful datum, that the essence of these effects is not necessarily in the apparent geometry of the apparatus or in the published data. The cruel caricature of this process has been called "cargo cult science". It does not follow that the reported success of others is bogus. Nor is it true that credentials certify results, for credentials granted for results A do not necessarily apply to case B, either to confirm or to condemn. Nature is the Umpire. I may have missed something, but it seems to me that Scott has faithfully reported the results of his efforts without saying anything to the effect that if he couldn't do it, other's claims are bogus. Such statements may be made by others, but I don't think Scott did so. Jed made a notable omission in claiming that a person could not do CF from P&F's announcement, for this is apparently exactly what Cravens did. An associate professor at a minor university, he succeeded in building a working CF cell in his garage or basement or whatever. He is good enough to be hired by CETI. And apparently others around the world did so without the magic JM cathodes. Certainly the Patterson cell does not use them. As for the Patterson cell, Miley built a working replica from the patent information with some undefined help from Patterson. And Miley is not an electrochemist. As for JM cathodes, I have seen no evidence that JM "knows" how to make CF cathodes. The apparent story is that there is some product number made by JM -- originally for some other purpose -- that is found to yield active cathodes more often than other sources, and so is a good place to start. As Peter Glueck has often pointed out, the energy probably comes from active sites within the body of the palladium where some catalytic process occurs. In the absence of theory, no one can define what these sites are, or how to make them. Cat's whisker radio detectors are solid state devices which worked, unreliably, and people probed for active sites on the surface in the early decades of this century. Decades later an understanding of solid state physics led to the idea of using two cat's whiskers on a very pure germanium crystal and the transistor was born. But the technology of getting hyperpure germanium had to be there first. Given that technology platform, integrated circuits weren't that far away, but it took almost two decades to demonstrate a principle. The distance from there to a Pentium is measured in tens of thousands of man-years. Jed is correct in pointing out that we are dealing with new science and the best people we have are having difficulty in replication. It does not follow that the effects are nonexistent. Jed's comments illustrate what many on this list may forget, that the problems of scale-up, replication, and productization are much, much greater than many realize. Edison's success came from several factors. Many tried platinum incandescent lamps working in air with regulators, but the margin between useful incandescence and melting was too small for the technology of the time. Edison chose 100V for distribution as a compromise between danger of electrocution and transmission loss, but then needed a 100V lamp of small wattage "subdividing the light". this implied a high resistance filament. The trials were legendary, with success being carbonized bamboo in a vacuum. He used a mercury pump to get a clean vacuum. Then there was all the machinery to design and build, and methods of making light bulbs by the million. It remained for Langmuir (I believe) to learn how to take a brittle metal, tungsten, and draw it into fine wire to make high resistance filaments for light bulbs. For all his success, Edison's system was fundamentally flawed, for it ran on DC, and with DC there was no transformation of the voltage/current ratio with constant power that enables long distance power transmission. That takes AC, and Edison's motors didn't like AC at all. It remained for Nikola Tesla to invent the polyphase AC motor and make our modern electrical system possible. The basic concept of the tricolor TV picture tube is quite old -- I have seen crude, large scale prototypes at the Smithsonian and in RCA. The one of the tricky parts is creating the shadow mask and pattern of phosphor stripes/dots so they align with the apertures of the three electron guns and each gun sees its own phosphor color. It's done by using each mask to expose a photoresist carrying each phosphor, using a UV light source located where the electron gun will be in the finished tube. Once the several exposures are made, the mask and cap (carrying the phosphor screen) stay together. Think of doing that with a 35" tube. People started with small tubes and small deflection angles and over decades learned to do it with 35" tubes and 120 deg. deflection angles. Being good at that doesn't guarantee success in making computer monitors. We are all impatient and getting a bit crabby. This isn't going to be easy, and some of the hardest part is yet to come. Remember, Vorts, few of us are actually in the trenches doing the real work. We may be convinced of the existence of anomalous energy, but the hard work of engineering products and marketing them is yet ahead and the companies doing serious work can be numbered on one hand. Mike Carrell ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> > To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; > Subject: Jed's Standard > Date: Sunday, October 19, 1997 1:04 PM > > To: Vortex > > Scott Little writes: > > Jed, you have chosen a truly unfair standard to apply to cold fusion > experimentation. It goes something like this: > > Anybody who gets positive results in a cold fusion experiment is a great > scientist, learned in electrochemistry, and skilled in the laboratory. > > Anybody (like myself) who repeatedly tries cold fusion experiments and > does not observe positive results is an amateur, lacking the necessary > knowledge, and lacking the necessary skills. > > Life is truly unfair! You could practice doing open-heart surgery on cats for > years. I guarantee you will end up with nothing more than a pile of dead > kitties. You do not have the skills, unless you have been through pre-med. It > took surgeons 150 years to develop heart surgery techniques. You cannot master > them by yourself. If you tried to build and fly your own ultra light airplane > (without a kit), you would kill yourself. Nobody becomes an electrochemist by > ESP. Melvin Miles had *decades* of experience, and look how long it him to > master CF! Look how many cathodes he went through. Arata was making palladium > filters for the Japanese hot fusion program in 1952. How many Pd samples have > you run, anyway? Five? Your chances of success with random samples of Johnson > Matthey Pd is roughly 20%, assuming you make no errors in electrochemistry or > surface preparation. Your chance of success with Pd from most other suppliers > is zero. You can see the cathodes swell, bend and fall apart. > > I am not the only one who says CF is much more difficult that it looks. Last > week Martin Fleischmann repeated, for the umpteenth time, that he has always > insisted it is terribly difficult and he wishes people would listen to him. > Until the experts learn to characterize the material, mass produce it, and > package it, CF will remain a hit-or-miss experiment. It appears that Ragland's > end-run technique is not panacea, but perhaps some other short-cut will > emerge. > > > Not only is this an unfair position for you to adopt, it also makes it > virtually impossible to have a productive discourse with you. You have > achieved an exceedingly narrow-minded vantage and your opinions are thus > cast in stone, totally inflexible, totally predictable. > > I have read the literature and I have some inkling of how difficult this is, > how many things can go wrong, and how incredibly knowledgeable people like > Fleischmann, Storms and Miles are. I say that scientific research in a new > field where multiple, unknown parameters are at work, is an inherently > difficult enterprise requiring deep knowledge and experience in chemistry, > physics, and experimental technique. That is not a narrow minded view. It is > the conventional view of scientific research. If you poll a hundred scientists > I expect 98 of them would agree with me. I myself have not begun to master the > knowledge required to do electrochemistry, but I do know how do some other > things that take years of practice: I can speak Japanese reasonable well and I > can write long and complicated programs with a team of programmers. Let me say > categorically that no ordinary person could master such skills by himself, > puttering around at home. If you think you can, then you are either a > world-class genius like Wilbur Wright or a fathead who has no idea how > difficult other people's jobs are. > > > You attempt to make fun of my "make it at home" standard by claiming > that I couldn't make a crankshaft, a Pentium processor, a CRT, etc. > Again, you are so narrow-minded that you are blind to the underlying > issues here. > > I am not making fun of anything. > > > I could easily make a crankshaft that would work for a while. It would > be noisy and it would self-destruct in a short time but it would work. > > I doubt it! Even Wilbur and Orville Wright never tried to make their own > propellor shafts, and the ones they had made at a specialty shop in Dayton > kept cracking. They made their own engine, but they stopped short at > crankshafts and propellor shafts. I do not think you are more capable than > they were. Besides, what do you mean you could "easily make" one? Do you mean > that you could start with iron ore and forge a shaft? Do you mean you could > take iron and make steel out of it? Or, if I gave you sophisticated modern > tools, you could cut the ready-made steel into the right shape? > > > I couldn't make a whole Pentium but I could readily make a single > transistor, thus proving the underlying principle to be valid...the rest > is just engineering. > > If this was 1950 you could not. The first working transistor was made in 1948, > after 20 years of theoretical and experimental research, but the device was > not characterized properly until 1952. CF has not yet been properly > characterized, so you cannot do it yet. Unless you happen to be as good at > science as the people at Bell Labs. At this stage, CF requires a combination > of skill and intuition built up over many years by people who have been doing > similar work. > > > At our lab, I could also make a crude CRT with relative ease. Something > that would put a beam of electrons on a phosphor and allow it to be > steered with voltages applied to plates. . . . > > Okay, that was a bad example. Let's see you make a color thin film LCD > computer display. My point is, many examples of modern technology cannot be > made except in a sophisticated multimillion dollar factory by experts using > high tech tools. Cold fusion, unfortunately, is an example. Johnson Matthey > knows how to do fabricate the cathodes, and Miles knows how to operate them, > but you don't. Maybe if you keep practicing for as long as he did, and you go > through as many cathodes as he did, you might learn. > > > No, I can't make the perfected version of these technologies that is the > result of man-centuries of development but, in every case, I can make a > crude working version that demonstrates the underlying principles. > > You can demonstrate some underlying principles, but not others. You cannot > make a crude working version of an fission reactor or an atom bomb, even if it > were legal. You cannot separate uranium isotopes in your basement. You could > not build a gas turbine engine, or a roll of color photo film, or a quark > detection machine. You do not have the slightest idea how Johnson Matthey > prepares their special alloys. Even Martin does not know all the details. He > said he would never try, it would take him and a crack team of metallurgists 5 > or 10 years to learn how to do it. The Japanese spent millions trying to > figure out how J-M does it, and they go nowhere. They only managed to alienate > J-M. > > > For the foreseeable future, I will continue to try to observe the cold > fusion effect and other excess energy phenomena in the EarthTech > laboratory. If you have anything productive to contribute to this > effort it is most welcome. > > Sure! Read the literature and use the materials and techniques recommended by > the experts. Learn from them in hands-on training. Learn a heck of lot about > electrochemistry (much more than I know.) Essentially, you have to put > yourself through a graduate level course in electrochemistry and material > science. You have to master many of the techniques Ed Storms learned in grad > school and at Los Alamos, and you have to develop an encyclopedic knowledge of > materials, surface preparation, vacuum pumps, annealing, spot welding, open > circuit voltage, and a hundred other topics. To get a sense of what I mean, > ask Ed a question about any aspect of his work, and prepare to take notes. > Or . . . you can wait until Martin or CETI or someone else packages the > solution in a box that anyone can use. > > > Otherwise, I'd appreciate a little slack...we're on the same side, > remember? > > No, we are not. You are going around telling people that because you, Scott > Little, cannot master CF on your own, that calls into doubt peer-reviewed > papers written by people like McKubre, Miles and Fleischmann. You are saying > that there is no difference between a skilled professional with decades of > experience who works for five months, and some guy in his basement. You are > setting your work as a standard to judge Martin Fleischmann! Who do you think > you are? Can you do physics better than Hagelstein, or play the trumpet better > than Armstrong? You can paint frescos better than Michelangelo, I suppose? It > is as if I said "I can't make this program work the way Nicklaus Wirth says it > should, he must be wrong." This kind of talk hurts the field more than it > helps. If you are going to make such pronouncements it will better for CF if > you get discouraged and quit. > > Francis J. Stenger writes: > > Hear, Hear, Scott! > > I would guess that if you went back through the "Amateur Scientist" > section of "Scientific American" - say, back to 1900 - you could make a > very impressive list of devices and apparatus that you COULD make in > your lab. > > Yes, well, it is a shame in a way, but the world has changed since 1900. > Technology has gotten immensely complicated. We can no longer fabricate or > even understand most of the tools we depend upon. In 1900 a well educated > person could master a large fraction of the physics and chemistry that made > the world run. Today, you could not even familiarize yourself with a tiny > fraction of it. In 1900 a skilled watchmaker (even an amateur) working on his > own could build a mechanical clock that was almost as good as the national > observatory time-keeper electrically driven pendulum clocks. Today, you could > not build an atomic clock. You cannot even make a wristwatch anymore. That > requires a semiconductor factory and crystal timers. (You can revive obsolete > mechanical watch technology, but that isn't what I mean.) > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 16:21:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18892; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971019191339.006e927c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:13:39 +0000 To: From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Conclusion is not correct Cc: In-Reply-To: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"huicD.0.2d4.qGfIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:30 PM 10/19/97 -0400, Mike wrote: >Scott's earnest efforts to duplicate some of the CF anomalous energy >devices should not be met with scorn. They demonstrate a useful datum, that >the essence of these effects is not necessarily in the apparent geometry of >the apparatus or in the published data. This does not follow. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 16:59:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13860; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:55:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:55:36 -0700 Message-ID: <344B1262.44B3 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:12:18 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Jed's Standard References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ebs1T1.0.UO3.stfIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: [snip] > Cat's whisker radio detectors are solid state devices which worked, > unreliably, and people probed for active sites on the surface in the early > decades of this century. Decades later an understanding of solid state > physics led to the idea of using two cat's whiskers on a very pure > germanium crystal and the transistor was born. But the technology of > getting hyperpure germanium had to be there first. Given that technology > platform, integrated circuits weren't that far away, but it took almost two > decades to demonstrate a principle. The distance from there to a Pentium is > measured in tens of thousands of man-years. [snip] Whoa! Again, my two major interests overlap. On the above, check out: http://www.american-computer.com/roswell.htm for the latest raging controversy on the development of the transistor and integrated circuits. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 17:54:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23955; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:43:24 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344AA91C.3DE math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:43:08 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VBkQm.0.7s5.fagIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed repeatedly confuses proof of principle with engineering development, as Scott pointed out in his rejoinder. I challenge Jed to detail a single **accepted** scientific discovery this century that has all these commonolaties with CF: (1) obviously extremely important at the time it is announced (2) cost of materials/supplies for basic setup is ~ $10,000 and (3) **basic phenomena** itself cannot be widely replicated and is rejected by mainstream science within 10 years of its announced discovery Even if we go back over a century to times when the pace of development was slower: Examples like Edison's light bulb are ridiculous---in 10 minutes I can set up a glowing wire that will last a few seconds before it burns out, and prove the "principle", not to mention that it is obviously "allowed" by the existing theories of the time. Ditto for the Wright brothers---powered flight of a human-containing vehicle is not a fundamental phenomena. It is a major engineering improvement of flight phenomena that are readily deomonstrated by birds, paper airplanes and rubber-band powered balsa wood toys. Even much more exotic wholly quantum phenomena like lasers were readily replicated after their discovery. The only comparable phenomena I can even imagine is "psychic phenomena"---but there, of course, it still lives in the same dubious limbo as CF, perhaps for good reason. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 18:21:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26918; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:12:34 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Mike Carrell cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Edison In-Reply-To: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6Nqzh3.0.Qa6.k4hIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And Edison's first working production filament was not his ... but was from a fellow from Cinty, OH .... Edison tried to sue... was not successful ... so bought the guy out. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 18:22:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA31588; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:15:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:15:08 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:09:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Terry Blanton cc: Vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <344B1262.44B3 bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"C7u1r2.0.Mj7.O2hIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: As Angel's grandmother would say "dep dep". See notes: On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Terry Blanton wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > [snip] > > > Cat's whisker radio detectors are solid state devices which worked, > > unreliably, and people probed for active sites on the surface in the early > > decades of this century. The lead sulphide cat's wisker worked GREAT! Band gap for PbS is 0.37 V and for Ge it is 0.67 V PbS beats to doo dah out of Ge for tiny signals! ... Of course CuFeSe2 beats them both at a dead awsome 0.16 V ! Decades later an understanding of solid state > > physics led to the idea of using two cat's whiskers on a very pure > > germanium crystal and the transistor was born. But the technology of > > getting hyperpure germanium had to be there first. Given that technology > > platform, integrated circuits weren't that far away, but it took almost two > > decades to demonstrate a principle. The distance from there to a Pentium is > > measured in tens of thousands of man-years. > > [snip] > > Whoa! Again, my two major interests overlap. On the above, check out: > > http://www.american-computer.com/roswell.htm > > for the latest raging controversy on the development of the transistor > and integrated circuits. > > Terry > And the Bell Labs photos show a paper clip as functional element. J > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 18:42:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29244; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: some stuff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iXHh_3.0.p87.3LhIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., Here is some stuff that you don't often hear about... but which is very neat. Maybe not as neat as water balls ... but still pretty neat. And, yes, one can make water ball generator ... not frozen water... but real, liquid water balls ... about 3 to 7 mm diameter, last about 10 to 50 seconds. Partial listing of methodologies, systems, process, tools and other innovations reduced to practice. 1] Defibrillator technology. Uses no batteries. 2] Miniature low cost tagging RF transmitter 3] Edge emitting luminescent crystals 4] Method for "launching" soliton-like forms 5] Low cost ULF accelerometer 6] 3-D visualization of electronic waveforms 7] Novel aqueous electrolysis methods 8] Detection of non-metallic AP, anti personnel, landmines. 9] Novel magnetic ULF sensing of mechano and magneto seismic activity. [9] a Novel analysis methodologies for seismic and other ULF waveforms 10] Novel method for side tone training of professional singers 11] Acquisition of biological signals by means of optical methods as opposed to biopotential methodolgies. 12] Astronomical methodologies for acquiring information from a] sun activity and sun spot activity b] meteor activity c] photosphere and magnetosphere activity d] ionosphere activity 13] Sensing of interaction of near E field evanescent waves with matter and other fields 14] Sensing of concealed weapons 14]a Improved ballistic armor 15] Method of making a length of cable a sensitive mechanical or microphonic transducer 16] Method for making a novel antenna, several types, icluding but not limited to: a] antenna at distance off the ground with no tower. b] active antennas c] physically small yet electrically large antennas There is a lot of stuff not on this list and between the lines. I have basically put years into having fun solving what others think are problems! John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 18:50:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07290; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:46:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:46:04 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 18:45:53 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Q6iYD.0.Vn1.PVhIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, Mike Carrell wrote: > Cat's whisker radio detectors are solid state devices which worked, > unreliably, and people probed for active sites on the surface in the early > decades of this century. Decades later an understanding of solid state > physics led to the idea of using two cat's whiskers on a very pure > germanium crystal and the transistor was born. See below, from sci.physics. (!) From: voglerje ols.net Newsgroups: sci.electronics,sci.physics Subject: Possible early transistor? Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 07:49:48 GMT Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com Lines: 8 I recall one of my electronics teachers in college relating a story in which shipboard radio operators of the 1910's and 20's would add a second catwhisker to their galena crystal detector, attach a low-voltage battery to it, and obtain a degree of amplification. Has anyone else ever heard of this? Josh Vogler KC4QDL .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 19:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20664; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:38:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:38:07 -0700 Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:30:01 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer , voglerje@ols.net, William Beaty Subject: PbS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YCvjM.0.m25.DGiIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very cool stuff... semiconductors.. Several detectors have been used over the years and two whicker and two crystal systems have been used: Two whichers can be used a a degree of carrier modulation or conductance modulation can be had. With one or two crystals a crystal or area of crystal can be biased to near avalanche conditions and the first site does some detection and the very-near-avalanche second site is 'pushed over the knee' by the output of the first site. Very cool stuff .... coherers .... low ball mag amps and other good stuff like carbon and iron oxide detectors. J On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, William Beaty wrote: > > Cat's whisker radio detectors are solid state devices which worked, > From: voglerje ols.net > Newsgroups: sci.electronics,sci.physics > Subject: Possible early transistor? > > I recall one of my electronics teachers in college relating a story in > which shipboard radio operators of the 1910's and 20's would add a > second catwhisker to their galena crystal detector, attach a > low-voltage battery to it, and obtain a degree of amplification. Has > anyone else ever heard of this? > > Josh Vogler > KC4QDL > > > .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. > William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 > EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ > Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 20:09:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26261; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:01:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:01:57 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:48:44 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdcfa$4cad6ce0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ML0Ff.0.SP6.OciIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gosh Jed. You should't have jumped on Scott Little so hard. Chicken Little is a different story. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 20:12:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13105; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:07:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:07:00 -0700 From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:05:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019220420_524656788 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) Resent-Message-ID: <"-QPAg1.0.YC3.1phIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 10/17/97 10:59:06 PM, someone wrote: <> Can a reference be supplied? Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 20:52:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11982; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344AD3FB.559909D7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:16:03 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex , List Server Newman Subject: SMOT, PMOD & RMOG changed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jkT8H2.0.-w2.yGjIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have updated the SMOT Mk4 shipping status. Initial RMOG plans and theory are up. I have finished a test using a air coil and the same coil with a ferrite slug. The tests show that the negative current slope IS caused by the ferrite. Waveforms posted as well. Good reading. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 20:57:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11404; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:51:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:51:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199710200351.WAA17579 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:51:59 (-050 Subject: Re: My work ... and Jed's Standard and Scott CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Priority: normal References: <344A2185.5956 interlaced.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"ixlYQ2.0.5o2.JLjIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, > Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 11:37:07 -0400 (EDT) > > 2] I have a simple method wherein I use an inexpensive > material at about 0.75 cents [yes, less than one cent] a square foot and > with no adhesive you can put it on nearly any surface, glass, painted > drywall, wood, and it will support 6 ounces with 20" by 20" sheet.... I > have a can of tuna fish hanging from such a piece now. Although is does > not fit any nice neat pigeon hole it is sort of like tape... but there is > no adhesive and when you are done with it it is so biologiaclly intert > you could eat it ... it wouuld not be much different than any roughage .. > or chop it up and plant corn on it ....or just re use it. No takers. Would it be better than Polygrip for false teeth?? [No joke here, something better is needed.] -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 21:07:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14303; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:00:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020115945.006a2100 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:59:45 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <199710191307_MC2-2464-BDF0 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"V8l3g.0.OV3.aTjIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:04 19/10/97 -0400, Jed Rothwell writes: >... but I do know how do some other >things that take years of practice: I can speak Japanese reasonable well ... >... Let me say categorically that no ordinary person could master such skills >by himself, puttering around at home. But every japanese kid picks it up by the age of 5 just puttering around at home (or even just playing with other kids) without consiously trying! ;-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 21:07:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12894; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:56:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 20:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: <344AD652.AB5CCF78 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:26:02 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qRt2M.0.C93.7QjIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Austin wrote: > > >Ferrite Critical Reaction Time > > > >1) I have measured the FCRT at 40ns for a 1 amp initial ramp using 30 > >turns. > >2) I have measures the FCRT at 35ns for a 5 amp initial ramp using 15 > >turns. > > (Same coil, just tapped half way down) > > > > ---- > Are there other materials that would be much slower to react than Ferrite. This would allow slower switching? > ---- > Richard Austin -- email: richarda icx.net -- radio: KG7SU HI Richard, I am building a test rig to easily checkout various ferrites, but most I have tested todate are around 30-50ns. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 21:41:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23057; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:35:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:35:40 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710200435.XAA23233 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Corso's ripper To: vortex-l eskimo.com (vortex-l) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:35:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3RttP2.0.5e5.R-jIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: > Mike Carrell wrote: > > Decades later an understanding of solid state > > physics led to the idea of using two cat's whiskers on a very pure > > germanium crystal and the transistor was born. But the technology of > > getting hyperpure germanium had to be there first. Given that technology > > platform, integrated circuits weren't that far away, but it took almost two > > decades to demonstrate a principle. The distance from there to a Pentium is > > measured in tens of thousands of man-years. > > Whoa! Again, my two major interests overlap. On the above, check out: > > http://www.american-computer.com/roswell.htm > > for the latest raging controversy on the development of the transistor > and integrated circuits. If anyone wants to check into Col Corso's claims, I won't try to stop you. But I bought his book and was underwhelmed by the evidence (which was zero) in support of his most extraordinary claims. Briefly, when he was stationed at Fort Riley in 1947, a guard who he had befriended (joined his enlisted men's bowling team) allegedly showed him the alien Roswell UFO bodies that were temporarily stored there en route from Fort Bliss to Wright Field. Then in the 1961 Corso ends up as Chief of the Army's Foreign Technology Division. General Trudeau assigns him the task of farming out all the UFO wreakage to various high-tech companies so as to "seed" new developments. So like Johnny Appleseed, Corso becomes (according to his account) what must be the most important man in history ... a witness to alien beings, the spreader of technological seeds, like the transistor, integrated circuits, the laser, fiber optics, "supertenacity fibers" and so on. We only have Corso's word on it, since General Trudeau is dead. But Corso has some previous "authenticity" since, apparently, he did have assignments at various places when he said he had them (such as with MacArthur's staff in Korea, Eisenhower's White House National Security Council, the Pentagon, a staff member for Senators Eastland Thurmond, etc.) In fact, Thurmond wrote a forward for Corso's book, but retracted it when finding out, allegedly, that Corso's memoir turned out to be an apparent ripping yarn about UFO's. So this really is the highest ranking ex-military officer to come forward with a fantastic UFO tale -- but in my mind, that doesn't make it believable. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 22:08:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27506; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:02:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:02:49 -0700 Message-ID: <344AFD69.3C2E keelynet.com> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:42:49 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corso's ripper References: <199710200435.XAA23233 mirage.skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"K6By_1.0.Qj6.tNkIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi John Logajam! Finally a voice of reason in this Roswell mess....I too have been beseiged by believers who NOW follow this new claim that most of our modern technology came from alien technology....forget about Henry Moray, Babbage and a host of other people who developed seminal technology which was simply expanded and enhanced as time went on.... I simply can't understand why people have to buy into the crutch of aliens to either foster fear or now this kind of pseudo-admiration.... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 22:33:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00410; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:28:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:28:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199710200528.WAA02877 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:37:32 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fom_P3.0.E6.nlkIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jerry and John, > > Hi John Logajam! > > Finally a voice of reason in this Roswell mess....I too have been > beseiged by believers who NOW follow this new claim that most of our > modern technology came from alien technology....forget about Henry Moray, > Babbage and a host of other people who developed seminal technology which > was simply expanded and enhanced as time went on.... > > I simply can't understand why people have to buy into the crutch of > aliens to either foster fear or now this kind of pseudo-admiration.... Jerry, people are not "buying into" aliens. The aliens exist. They are here. They are doing things to and with us. These are facts, no matter how many people have stupid attitudes about them, against them, or for them. I am sure that there were polynesians who believed the G.I.s who visited their islands were gods, and other who believed they were devils, and yet others who doubted they had even been there. None of these beliefs altered the fact that the G.I.s were THERE. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 22:34:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01064; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:31:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:31:11 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344AEC96.2533 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:31:02 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT, PMOD & RMOG changed References: <344AD3FB.559909D7 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R77aw3.0.XG.TokIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi All, > > I have updated the SMOT Mk4 shipping status. > I see you are shooting for an oct 29 shipping date...that's just in time to arrive for my Birthday, Nov 10. :-) I eaderly await your SMOT toy...I must admit, you have evolved a very impressive smot web site by now...I hope the physics of your toy turns out to be so deserving. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 22:49:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03418; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:46:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:46:07 -0700 Message-ID: <344B07B3.258E keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:26:43 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corso's ripper References: <199710200528.WAA02877 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FoT8J2.0.Kr.U0lIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Fred! Believe as you wish, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever provided proof. I was president of our local MUFON group for one year, and on the board of directors for about 4 years, had the opportunity to meet many popular researchers, people who claim to have seen them and even contactees....as sincere as they appeared to be, not one of them could provide a shred of evidence beyond some blurry photos....during that time, I met so many people who wanted to 'believe'... It was more of a religion than a seeking out of evidence...it could just as well be a government, hollow earth, time travellers, dimensional travellers or my favorite, secret groups, no proof either way....when I can meet one of them or personally inspect some of their technology, then MAYBE..... I don't feel Vortex is the place to discuss aliens, so everyone please forgive me for responding to John's initial post, though it had to do with a claim to technology, I should have skipped it as with much of what is posted here. Sorry... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 22:54:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04131; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:51:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:51:02 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710200550.AAA23878 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Corso's ripper In-Reply-To: <344AFD69.3C2E keelynet.com> from Jerry at "Oct 19, 97 11:42:49 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:50:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zFq7k2.0.R01.45lIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry W. Decker wrote: > beseiged by believers who NOW follow this new claim that most of our > modern technology came from alien technology....forget about Henry Moray, > Babbage and a host of other people who developed seminal technology which > was simply expanded and enhanced as time went on.... Babbage was lucky ... he lived in the period between Von Daniken's ancient astronauts and Corso's post-war aliens. So Babbage gets credit for his own ideas. Not so fortunate are the ancient civilizations and science since 1961, when alien ideas ruled the world (at least they get credit for all the good ideas.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 23:01:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05193; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:57:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:57:42 -0700 Message-ID: <344AF2A1.FFD5D63E microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:26:49 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD FCRT Final Results Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IRxuE.0.xG1.LBlIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Would any of you who believe the FCRT waveforms are transmission line reflections, fet cap, or coil resonance please refer the the latest posted data. The tests, I believe are conclusive. The waveforms are clean and real. The FCRT is real. Now lets get onto reducing the coil drive pulse width to less than 35ns and let the B field do some real work and not just causing back Emf. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 23:01:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05279; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:57:59 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344AF206.5857 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:54:14 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corso's ripper References: <199710200528.WAA02877 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YoATp2.0.OI1.cBlIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: > > Jerry, people are not "buying into" aliens. The aliens exist. > They are here. They are doing things to and with us. > These are facts Fred, you speak with the same assured urgency as when you discovered the "spindizzy" perpetual motion machine. I respectfully suggest that this case is similar---you do not have all the "facts". In particular, if your understanding of reality is based on all the pro-ufo literature, you have been fed a sadly distorted picture of reality. If you want to have a balanced view, I suggest reading a few of Phil Klass's skeptical UFO books, and read the major UFO articles that have appeared in the skeptical Inquirer in the past decade or so, particularly the recent work on what really crashed at Roswell (i.e. project mogul). If you can read all the skeptical material and still have such a profound faith in aliens (and faith is exactly what it is, since there is no proof evident), so be it---but based on your spindizzy experience, I see you are looking to truly understand things, and so I think you would appreciate the pro-UFO literature is severley misleading if you saw the skeptical work that has been done, which tends to be much more fact based, from my experience. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 23:27:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08782; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:19:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199710200619.XAA24687 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:29:07 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eKHtg1.0.792.5WlIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Barry, I appreciate your comments, but I agree with Jerry when he says it is not an appropriate subject for discussion this list. I will only say that I speak from personal experience, not literature, when I state that ETs are real. I am on much firmer ground here than in my spindizzy "obsession". In addition I have spoken to several military and police personnel who have viewed or guarded extraterrestrial bodies. These people were not bragging, and had nothing to gain by telling me their stories. I believe them. Let's end this here. Fred > In particular, if your understanding of reality is based on > all the pro-ufo literature, you have been fed a sadly distorted > picture of reality. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 23:34:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09818; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:26:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:26:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 00:25:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: List Server Vortex cc: Greg Watson , List Server Freenrg , List Server NeoTech , List Server Newman Subject: Re: RMOG claims? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"98uXZ.0.EP2.XclIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Peter Jason Aldo wrote: ---snip--- >>offered to pay for transportation, however, you did not reply. If you do >>not want to travel to Ohio, could you send a generator for us to test or >>at least more details? I, nor the people I work with are not out to steal >>your invention, just to find out if you really have an overunity device. >>My E-Mail account will be closed on the 25'th of October, so you may >>contact me at work after that if you wish. >> >>Sincerely, >>Pete J. Aldo >> >>Stirling Technology >>178 Mill St. >>Athens, Ohio 45701 >>614-594-2277 >> >> can i help? ouch, could I send you some money Before 10.25 so you can keep your e-mail account??? (OR MAYBE, since Greg didn't reply, could you TAKE the money you said you had set aside for his transportation and APPLY that so you can have your e-mail??? (last resort, try www.juno.com before 10.25 and get free e-mail).. For the Most current activities that anyone HAS try his web site when your Back-on-line at "http://www.microtronics.co.au/gwatson" ------- He WILL probably have some generators to ship to Ohio soon, but you should look at the the frame and the scope of the project here to get some perspective of when you can expect them. -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 19 23:40:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11433; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:32:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:32:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199710200559.WAA07395 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:08:41 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GNXmu2.0.Uo2.FilIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I don't feel Vortex is the place to discuss aliens Agreed. No one who has experienced alien contact is going to doubt it, no one who hasn't is going to believe it, and no reason why they should. The ending of the movie "Contact" says it all. End of story. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 01:22:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29415; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344B1360.503F math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 01:16:32 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corso's ripper References: <199710200619.XAA24687 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sBO5v3.0.XB7.fDnIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: > > Hi Barry, > > I appreciate your comments, but I agree with Jerry when he > says it is not an appropriate subject for discussion this list. > I will only say that I speak from personal experience I agree UFO discussion is not appropriate here---but a note on you above comment is: "Personal experience" is a rather unreliable measuring instrument for judging the validity of a hypothesis, such as "aliens exist". Our experimences are simply intepretations of our sensory inputs, and both our sensors and data analysis software are demonstrably flawed. >From an evolutionary standpoint, all that matters is that they function well enough to allow us to reproduce. Unfortunately, this has apparently left them with numerous "holes" that allow a variety of misperceptions and misinterpretations, and failure modes. Personally, even if I "experienced" that an alien picked me up and took me for a cruise around saturn, I would be quite unsure about whether it really occured unless I was left with some objective physical evidence or new information that could corroborate the experience. Barring that, all I would be sure of is that humans have such *experiences* from time to time, and I am quite sure in fact that they do. There seems to be a faction that accepts personal experience the ultimate arbiter of what is real, and this is a fundamental error that has lead to all manner of bizarre belief systems. While science is still grappling with how to objectively study mental phenomena, the current best arbiter of reality that we have is independently and repeatedly replicable experiment (or "experience", in practice), and alien visitors have certainly not passed this test yet. And really, they won't, until one desides to hang out and give a press conference, or accidentally leaves a phaser at their next abduction site. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 02:42:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04156; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710200939.CAA04026 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:47:50 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w87QY2.0.r01.URoIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Barry, > > I agree UFO discussion is not appropriate here---but a note > on you above comment is: "Personal experience" is a rather > unreliable measuring instrument for judging the validity > of a hypothesis, such as "aliens exist". Our experimences are > simply intepretations of our sensory inputs, and both our sensors > and data analysis software are demonstrably flawed. > >From an evolutionary standpoint, all that matters is that > they function well enough to allow us to reproduce. Unfortunately, > this has apparently left them with numerous "holes" that allow > a variety of misperceptions and misinterpretations, and > failure modes. No argument there. I cannot say that my personal experiences are scientifically true for all time, but neither can I deny them, any more than you can deny your subjective experiences. > > Personally, even if I "experienced" that an alien > picked me up and took me for > a cruise around saturn, I would be quite unsure about > whether it really occured unless I was left with some > objective physical evidence or new information that could > corroborate the experience. Barring that, all I would be > sure of is that humans have such *experiences* from time to time, > and I am quite sure in fact that they do. > > There seems to be a faction that accepts personal experience > the ultimate arbiter of what is real, and this is a fundamental > error that has lead to all manner of bizarre belief systems. > While science is still grappling with how to objectively study > mental phenomena, the current best arbiter of reality that we > have is independently and repeatedly replicable experiment > (or "experience", in practice), and alien visitors have certainly > not passed this test yet. And really, they won't, until one > desides to hang out and give a press conference, or accidentally > leaves a phaser at their next abduction site. There seems to be a double standard in operation when it comes to certain kinds of experiences. Far more people in our society have "experienced" alien abductions than have "experienced" top quarks, for instance-- and yet one is considered good science and one is considered poppycock. The community of alien abductees recognizes that you and other scientists will not acknowledge the existence of extraterrestrials EVEN IF one of them was to give a press conference or leave a phaser at an abduction site. A way would be found to invalidate these experinces just like ways are found to invalidate the numerous other experiences that people have that are outside the (self-defined) bounds of science. In fact, objects ARE left at abduction sites all the time, in the bodies of abductees, but the CAT scans, microscopic studies, and chemical analyses of these objects are rejected out of hand, because, of course, the people who present the evidence are --alien abductees! Who could take them seriously? It is a pointless endeavour, as I said originally, when i wanted to let go of the topic. The scientific world view is hermetically sealed, just as the religious one is. Both deny that people experience what they experience, or at least put it on a different level of validity than their Holy Truth, the truth of the lab or the altar. The "faction" that accepts personal experience as the arbiter of what is real is called-- the human race. The 70 year old woman who comes up to me in my bookstore when it is empty and tells me haltingly of the little men who are in her bedroom at night and wants to know why they are there and what they are doing, and then proceeds to tell me details (then he looked into my eyes.. his eyes were huge and black.. he put his little hand on my forehead and said everything would be alright... the next thing I know I was floating through the wall!) that I have heard over and over from many others, isn't going to gain enlightenment from the idiotic statements of the Phillip Klasses of the world, the denyers and the debunkers. She has not read UFO books or watched UFO movies to get those details. She has had a REAL EXPERIENCE, an experience that is not going to go away no matter how many scientists play "let's pretend that our lab is the universe". This is why I dropped out of science in the first place, way back in high school. Nothing has changed... Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 04:57:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19335; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:54:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:54:04 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344B4654.3E9D math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:53:56 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corso's ripper References: <199710200939.CAA04026 mail1.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KmlBy.0.1k4.RPqIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: > > There seems to be a double standard in operation when it > comes to certain kinds of experiences. Far more people in > our society have "experienced" alien abductions than > have "experienced" top quarks, for instance-- and yet > one is considered good science and one is considered poppycock. No, you are comparing apples and elephants. First, no one denies the "abduction experience", which strictly speaking is a recollected memory of having been abducted, often brought out with the aid of hypnosis and an interviewer. That this process occurs is undeniable. Whether it corresponds to a literal objective event is what is in question. On the other hand, no one claims to experience the top quark. What is experienced is an image on a computer screen or photographic plate, of condensation tracks in a cloud chamber, or other equivalent "tracks" through materials. While the experience of viewing this image is subjective, the image, and the process that made the image, is not, and it leaves an objective physical record for anyone to view if they like, when they like. Interpretation of these images must be made, but 60+ years of experience have given us confidence... > A way would be found to invalidate these experinces just like > ways are found to invalidate the numerous other experiences > that people have that are outside the (self-defined) bounds > of science. The experiences are not invalidated---it is the interpretation of them that is invalidated. We know invalid interpretations exist... visit any mental hospital and you will find plenty of people with invalid interpretation of their experiences. Or, if you prefer to stay at home, go to bed, have a nice dream, and ask yourself whether the experiences in your dream really occured or not. > In fact, objects ARE left at > abduction sites all the time, in the bodies of abductees, but the CAT > scans, microscopic studies, and chemical analyses of these objects are > rejected out of hand, because, of course, the people who present the > evidence are --alien abductees! Hmmm...I'd love to see these....but refer to Jerry Deckers MUFON experince...I gues while he was head of his local MUFON, these objects were temporarily unavailable. > The scientific world view is hermetically sealed, just as > the religious one is. Both deny that people experience what they > experience no > or at least put it on a different level of validity than their > Holy Truth yes > The "faction" that accepts personal experience as the arbiter of > what is real is called-- the human race. Yes, and on average, the human races understanding of how the world works was pretty poor until the advent of scientific inquiry. > The 70 year old woman who comes up to me in my bookstore when it is > empty and tells me haltingly of the little men who are in her bedroom > ... She has had a REAL EXPERIENCE, an experience that is not going > to go away Yes, but here is what I don't understand: why does someone having such an experience *have* to believe that it is literally occuring? We all have dreams, so it is quite clear that we all have the ability to conjure incredible virtual realities within our own heads. But whenever some bizarre experience or memory occurs, and it is not associated with the narrow confines of being in bed, asleep, then it is automatically assumed to be "real"....I would much sooner assume the event is entirely inside my head, since that is where it is occuring in any case. > Nothing has changed... > in your own mind, apparently... -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 06:03:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27391; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:00:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:00:29 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:58:52 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <344AA91C.3DE math.ucla.edu> References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lr9zk2.0.vh6.hNrIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:43 PM 10/19/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Jed repeatedly confuses proof of principle with engineering >development, as Scott pointed out in his rejoinder. I challenge >Jed to detail a single **accepted** scientific discovery this century >that has all these commonolaties with CF: > >(1) obviously extremely important at the time it is announced >(2) cost of materials/supplies for basic setup is ~ $10,000 > Barry, yes to 1, maybe to 2, probably requires much more than the listed amount >and > >(3) **basic phenomena** itself cannot be widely replicated > and is rejected by mainstream science > within 10 years of its announced discovery Not true. For cold fusion, the power densities have increased, the number of laboratories successfully achieving it increased, and other performance criteria have been reached or achieved. Barry, with all due respect for your knowledge, diligence, and efforts, your inability to follow the literature, or to achieve sufficient successful experiments yourself do not make your conclusory statement correct. Cold fusion has been replicated, even as mainstream scientists are tardive in their understanding or awareness of this. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 06:38:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13401; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:30:33 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Barry's challenge Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710200932_MC2-247F-6461 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Drcfk2.0.IH3.dsrIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:barry julia.math.ucla.edu Barry Merriman writes: I challenge Jed to detail a single **accepted** scientific discovery this century that has all these commonalities with CF: (1) obviously extremely important at the time it is announced (2) cost of materials/supplies for basic setup is ~ $10,000 and (3) **basic phenomena** itself cannot be widely replicated and is rejected by mainstream science within 10 years of its announced discovery But this does not describe CF! These are not commonalities. The cost of materials to do a good CF experiment is far greater than $10,000. Cold fusion *was widely replicated* within ten months of its announced discovery! It remains difficult to replicate, but so do samurai swords, nuclear bombs, most industrial catalytic and biochemical processes, and most of the previous discoveries made by Fleischmann and Patterson. Some of Patterson's work has been unpatented in the public domain for decades, but rival companies not privy to the trade secrets still cannot replicate. This is a common circumstance in industry. The fact that something is difficult to replicate, like hot fusion, has never before been held as a reason to reject it. This is an arbitrary new standard developed especially for cold fusion by people like Barry, whose own work in hot fusion is infinitely more difficult to replicate than CF. If CF had even 1% of the hot fusion budget, we would have CF powered prototype cars by now. Cold fusion was widely replicated, but it was rejected by mainstream scientists, because most mainstream scientists are like Barry Merriman: I send them scientific papers describing the replications, but they refuse to look, and they pretend the papers and the replications do no exist. This is politics, not science. Furthermore, cold fusion was widely rejected immediately, not within ten years. Within hours of the announcement scientists at MIT and the DoE were telling reporters that CF is a lie and a fraud. There was never the slightest chance that it would be given a fair test. There are many important scientific discoveries that do fit Barry's description, but cold fusion is not among them. Important discoveries that took years or decades to pan out include semiconductors, controlled hot nuclear fusion, DNA therapy, top quarks, and the Mossbauer effect. Semiconductors were predicted in theory thirty years before they were successfully fabricated, it took another twenty years to tame them, and of course they remain terribly difficult to replicate. They always will, just as samurai swords always will be difficult to make. Controlled nuclear fusion never did pan out. The Mossbauer effect was predicted decades ago, but I gather it was only demonstrated recently. Some people got the Nobel prize for that the other day. There are also many basic scientific discoveries that were delayed by politics and naysaying scientists like Barry who refused to look at the data. Examples include the germ theory, the cure for pellagra, aviation, amorphous semiconductors, and continental drift. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 07:34:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21317; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:26:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971020102357_1149871375 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Excess Energy" and patents Resent-Message-ID: <"hj1rk1.0.rC5.udsIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira, Thanks for posting the abstract of the Putterman, et al., patent. Very intersting. They don't seem to claim more energy out of the system than the acoustic energy that they put into the system, at least in the abstract of their patent; but I agree that raising the possibility of fusion, as they do, also raises the possibility of excess heat. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 07:54:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24028; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344B6E77.79E math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:45:11 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bQoy43.0.Kt5.wvsIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Barry, with all due respect for your knowledge, diligence, > and efforts, your inability to follow the literature, > or to achieve sufficient successful experiments yourself > do not make your conclusory statement correct. > > Cold fusion has been replicated, even as mainstream > scientists are tardive in their understanding or awareness > of this. > With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of the problem, because you are one of the researchers who claim to posess robust and reproducible macroscopic excess heat experiments---yet you do nothing to assist interested scientists in investigating, replicating and understanding your discoveries. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 07:57:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15169; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:26 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:45:18 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Storms' XSH Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710201049_MC2-2481-EAE3 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"z36JG1.0.si3.n-sIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Tom Stolper asks about Ed Storms 1.2 watts excess: "But was it a steady, continuous 10%?" Nope, not a bit. It comes and goes. At the moment I was talking to him on the telephone it was around 1.2 watts. Actually, the fact that it ebbs and flows is a good sign. If it was steady, Ed and I would both think it must be an instrument artifact. Real CF heat is unsteady, like the heat from wet firewood. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 07:58:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15200; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:32 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020105409.00a52c40 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:54:09 -0400 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Cc: "Vortex_L" In-Reply-To: <01bcdcbd$adeab0e0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7lIXD1.0.Cj3.q-sIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:34 PM 10/19/97 -0600, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Every "failure" can be a positive sign, especially with the Mills "Hydrino" >results (forget the theory) walking all over electrolyzing water with >Fleischmanns (mis) interpretation as a reference. Ever seen a Nickel-Iron battery? Completely replaced today with Nickel-Cadmium (NiCads), but they share one very interesting property. If you left a discharged Nickel-Iron battery unshorted, it would recharge itself, but you would have to keep adding water during the process. In the Nickel-Iron batteries it was much more pronounced than in NiCads, which are sealed and use an alkali, not an acid. I don't know about Mills' Hydrino theory, but the weird behavior of nickel in water has been known for years, and Mills seems to be putting it on a useful basis. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 07:59:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15086; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:12 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:45:08 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [Off topic] Language learning Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710201049_MC2-2481-EAE2 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"QeotK1.0.Zh3.Z-sIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I said that no ordinary person could master such skills as learning Japanese by himself, puttering around at home. John Winterflood writes: But every japanese kid picks it up by the age of 5 just puttering around at home (or even just playing with other kids) without consciously trying! ;-) A very interesting point! Let me explain. First, Japanese kids do not master their written language until around age 14, and many remain functionally illiterate all their life. They master spoken language by age 5, just as kids do in any culture. Second -- and this is the interesting part -- they do not putter around *by themselves*. Kids must undergo intensive training by adults and other kids. It isn't rigorous, adult style training; we call it "play" and "telling stories" but it amounts to effective, intensive language training. Many people work harder during their first five years of life than they ever do again. When kids do not undergo this intensive, one-on-one training, they do not learn to speak. There are some horrifying examples of this. Occasionally cases surface where children have been held prisoner and abused, or abandoned in the woods. They generally never learn to speak fluently. This may be due to trauma, but some counter examples show it may not be. I read about a child in Japan who lived in normal middle class house, with plenty of food, toys and no physical abuse. The kid's hearing and vision were normal. But his parents never made any effort to teach him and he had no playmates in their isolated, dehumanized urban apartment. His only exposure to language was the television, which was left on all the time. By age 4 or 5 he developed no language competency. He thought the television was noise. He did not respond to simple statements like "come here" or "what is this?" I do know what happened after that, but this shows what happens when children are not trained by other people. I personally know a child in the U.S. who did not learn to speak until he was around three, because he was not taught by his parents often and he had no playmates. Depriving children of playmates is a form of child abuse, in my opinion. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 08:01:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15138; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:50:20 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:45:32 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Fred's standard Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710201049_MC2-2481-EAE4 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"2xXhN3.0.Qi3.h-sIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Frederick J. Sparber writes: Jed seem's to do a bit of crowing these days. Next thing you know he will be trying to take credit for the Sunrise. :-) I never take credit for anything in CF, except the articles I write. Just because he talked to the "venerable" Fleischmann who has all of those "credentials" and got lucky on a theory and an experiment that any naive sixth-grader could do . . . That is preposterous. No sixth-grader could do a CF experiment. It took Mel Miles five months of hard work to replicate. Miles has 30 years of experience in electrochemistry and he is a Fellow of the China Lake Naval Laboratory. It took people like Bockris and McKubre weeks to prepare the experiment and a year to publish their results. Pons and Fleischmann worked for years before they saw any positive results. . . . and still hasn't the foggiest notion of what physics is involved, he is strutting his stuff. Who still doesn't have the foggiest notion? Me? Fleischmann? I never did. The physics of CF are way over my head. I am a million miles back trying to understand how mass spectrometers work, with help from Ed Storms. Fleischmann knows a fantastic amount about the physics and chemistry of CF. More than anyone else in the world, I expect. Fleischmann does indeed have credentials. I think he is a genius, so does the Royal Society, and so do many corporations that hired him as a consultant over the years. Perhaps Fred disagrees. It is a matter of opinion, I suppose. Perhaps Fred has not read as many of Fleischmann's papers as I have. There is something there I'm sure, but any fool should know that if the material (palladium) was as selective as claimed, the stuff would dwarf the price of Platinum and CF would NOT be worth the bother. That does not follow. Pd CF is not a practical source of energy yet, so palladium-as-fuel has no market value. The fact that it is *potentially* useful as fuel will not drive the price up, any more than it drives down the price of oil. In any case, it is not the palladium itself which is selective, it is the treatment, doping and alloying that adds structural integrity and makes it good for CF. Actually, it makes it good for hydrogen filters, a specialty item from J-M, and the requirements for filters and CF cathodes are very similar. The processing adds value to the metal. This is true of many other materials. Carbon is one of the cheapest things around, but when you convert it to carbon filament and put it in the wing of a stealth bomber, it is worth more than gold. Intel converts sand (silicon) into the most valuable substance on earth. In point of fact, I doubt that Pd will ever become a practical fuel (or catalyst, or whatever it is) for CF. Fleischmann thinks that some other metal may be a better choice. He works with Pd because, as he says, he understands the material, he has had experience working with it, and it would take him many years to learn about nickel or some other metal. Pd is also a good choice because it readily absorbs hydrogen. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 08:27:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24771; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:21:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:21:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020112552.00a25940 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:25:52 -0400 To: commengr bellsouth.net From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Cc: Vortex In-Reply-To: <344B1262.44B3 bellsouth.net> References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aYbvr2.0.q26.6StIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:12 AM 10/20/97 -0700, Terry Blanton wrote: >Whoa! Again, my two major interests overlap. On the above, check out: > >http://www.american-computer.com/roswell.htm > >for the latest raging controversy on the development of the transistor >and integrated circuits. I think I have commented on this before, but not in an extraterestrial setting. ;-) Bell Labs was trying to build an all solid-state Field Effect Transistor. The FET was first patented in the mid-thirties (1936?), but the construction technique was just not replicable--crack a germanium crystal, stick in two fine wires, then glue it or clamp it closed. Shockley, Bardeen and Brittain thought they could do better, yield wise, with whiskers just touching the surface of the crystal. What they found was not a way to make FETs, but an entirely new type of amplifier now known as a junction transistor. If you used certain types of whiskers, atoms from the whiskers diffused into the germanium, and the current between base and collector could be controlled by a small current from emitter to base. It took them a long time to figure out that what they did have was not an FET, and a much longer time before reliable FETs were constructed. Now if you want to invoke alien technology to explain the junction transistor, go right ahead. But FETs were just waiting for the discovery of a process (zone refining) for making ultrapure crystals. And as for silicon, the relative semiconding properties of germanium and silicon were well known before 1947: Germanium had a much lower band gap--about 0.3 volts vs. 0.7 for silicon. This meant that germanium diodes had a much lower power dissipation, and silicon rectifiers worked better at high temperatures. After transistors had been around for a while, silicon dominated as power was clearly not the issue in most applications. But I can still remember in the mid-sixties deciding between silicon and germanium power transistors for a particular application. (The answer was silicon for reliability, and a bigger heat sink.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 09:48:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15278; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020124659.00a2e100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:46:59 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Lost technologies (was Re: Jed's Standard) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <344AA91C.3DE math.ucla.edu> References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"A7gmR2.0.ak3.CeuIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:43 PM 10/19/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >(1) obviously extremely important at the time it is announced >(2) cost of materials/supplies for basic setup is ~ $10,000 > >and > >(3) **basic phenomena** itself cannot be widely replicated > and is rejected by mainstream science > within 10 years of its announced discovery Funny you should mention it. Read what I just posted about the FET. Even after junction transistors were common, and the theory that said that FETs would work well understood, a lot of people totally disbelieved the occasional demonstration of the field effect. Once zone refining was developed to improve the quality of crystals for junction transistors, the metal-oxide semiconductor FET was (relatively) easy to produce, and the FET almost completely replaced the junction transistor. (For what it is worth, 99.999% of the transistors made today are FETs, in particular, CMOS devices in integrated circuts. CMOS has the now overwhelming advantage over NMOS, PMOS, and other technologies that power is only dissipated during switching. Of course, there are still lots of non-CMOS devices on the market, but most CMOS devices typically contain millions of transistors.) >Even if we go back over a century to times when the pace of >development was slower: >Examples like Edison's light bulb are ridiculous---in 10 minutes >I can set up a glowing wire that will last a few seconds >before it burns out, and prove the "principle", not to mention >that it is obviously "allowed" by the existing theories of the >time. Read the magazines and journals of the time, and you will find that the disbelief was not about electric lights--the carbon arc was well known. The issue that Edison licked was "subdivision of power." That meant that Edison--and at first only Edison's company--knew how to distribute power so that your neighbor turning off his light didn't affect yours. (Some power companies today still don't do that right.) This was more due to the "Spinning Jenny" generator than the carbon filament bulb, but both inventions were needed to have something that competed with gas lights. >Ditto for the Wright brothers---powered flight of a human-containing >vehicle is not a fundamental phenomena. It is a major engineering >improvement of flight phenomena that are readily deomonstrated >by birds, paper airplanes and rubber-band powered balsa wood toys. Again read history. The Wright Brothers invented a completely new technology that almost disappeared from aircraft for forty years. A few of their inventions that got lost: Wing-warping -- the fundamental difference between Wright aircraft and many other designs, going into WWI. The Wrights ran wires through the wing struts so that as the lift changed, the shape of the wing changed. This allowed the aircraft itself to deal with small changes in wind direction and currents. Banking -- In a Wright aircraft to turn you tilted the plane, which then flew around the turn with the lift pulling the plane through the turn. You could (and the Wrights often did) turn a Wright biplane in a circle of less than a hundred feet. In the famous 1908 demonstration for the Army, they took off inside a stadium, and circled twice before clearing the top. Competing aircraft, then and later, skidded through turns often taking a mile to turn 180 degrees. Canard -- You know how the Wright planes look funny with that wing out in front of the wing, and no tail? That is a wing is a canard and it pushes up, unlike the tail on a "conventional" airplane which pushes down. In addition, it makes the aircraft much more controllable near a stall. The canard stalls first, dropping the nose to stop the stall. Of course, many modern aircraft have canards, they make the aircraft more maneuverable, and save fuel. But canards virtually disappeared between WWI and the 1970s. We can argue wing warping, and other aircraft designers soon learned the advantage of controls that allowed banking into turns. But the canard is a perfect example of a widely demonstrated technology that disappeared from view, not because it didn't work, but because eminent scientists dismissed it. >Even much more exotic wholly quantum phenomena like lasers were readily >replicated after their discovery. This is very misleading. The MASER (Microwave Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) was invented first, and all sorts of people tried for years to build MASERs that worked in the visual range. Once the trick to making working lasers was discovered, lasers showed up all over the place. But with lasers, the trick was extremely visible, and one of those things where people get dents in their heads going "Duh! how did I miss that?" The trick was to isolate the two mirrors which had to be precisely spaced and vibration free, from the ruby crystal or gas tube containing the laser material. By putting windows at precise angles which eliminated reflections at the windows (or cutting the ends of the laser crystal at those angles) you had a laser which wasn't constantly detuned by heat induced changes in the optical length of the cavity. Laser materials with low coefficients of expansion came much later. >The only comparable phenomena I can even imagine is "psychic >phenomena"---but there, of course, it still lives in the same >dubious limbo as CF, perhaps for good reason. Very dubious limbo, depends on your point of view. I did an ESP experiment for a science fair when I was in high-school. Found repeatable, reliable ESP. Now for the rest of the story... Several members of my family could produce results above chance with standard Rhine decks. I kept track of the conditions where the best results occured instead of trying to eliminate alternative explanations. Finally got to where four of us could produce 90% or higher accuracy, and the other three got results no different from chance. Then I got really creative, with a monochromatic light source. (Carbon arc through a large prism and slit onto a diffuser.) Turned out that those of us with ESP had the ability to see what is normally considered near infrared. And there was a frequency window where we could see through the cards, but the other members of the family claimed the room to be completely dark! Repeatable and reliable. I am occasionally reminded of it when someone kills an incandescent light and the room goes "suddenly" dark. I can often see for several seconds by the IR emitted from the hot lamp fixture before it cools. Are there other such "extra" senses? Sure, there have been reliably proven cases of people who can hear radio stations--usually due to their dental work. Also during WWII, people with cataract operations were used to guide SOE boats to shore. They could see ultraviolet light sources which couldn't be picked up by ordinary soldiers or conventional detectors. So the agent on shore could signal with an ultraviolet flashlight that wouldn't alert the sentries. Are there more mysterious "extra" senses? Don't know, but I think that there are. For example, some people seem to have the equivalent of a built in compass. Magnetic, intertial? Don't ask me. A friend of mine in high-school had perfect pitch. Play a five note discord on a piano, and he could tell you not only what the notes were, but which ones were out of tune, and by how much. But what drove me up the wall was that he could sing a perfect 440 A. It took us a lot of work to set up a system where we could measure it accurately--recording smeared things due to wow, and ordinary amplifiers introduced phase changes. But eventually we got John measured to be repeatable to within 1/10 of a cycle per second. We used to claim that he was one of those who heard radio stations in their heads--in this case WWV. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 10:17:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18718; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:10:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:10:28 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:05:47 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Swartz part of problem? Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710201309_MC2-2484-4874 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"z77021.0.Oa4.32vIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman tells Mitchell Swartz: With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of the problem, because you are one of the researchers who claim to posses robust and reproducible macroscopic excess heat experiments---yet you do nothing to assist interested scientists in investigating, replicating and understanding your discoveries. I agree. Swartz does almost nothing to assist others. He has published some well-written papers. Most of them are over my head, so I cannot judge how much they would assist other scientists. But Swartz could do far more than publishing papers. He claimed years ago that he has developed effective CF device. Assuming this is true, if he would demonstrate and sell this device, he would soon convince the world. People would give him hundreds of millions of dollars to develop it, and in a few years he would earn millions of dollars and everlasting fame. HOWEVER, he may be contractually constrained from doing this. I have no idea what Mitch Swartz's personal situation is, or whether he is free to demonstrate his devices. Most corporate researchers are not allowed to reveal secrets. That would be theft of intellectual property. Ordinarily, corporate secrecy is a good idea, but cold fusion is too difficult to develop at one company. Secrecy does not work. You have to file for a patent, go public, and hope to earn your money from consulting and royalties. Martin Fleischmann is contractually obligated to keep much of his knowledge of cold fusion secret. He wishes this was not the case. Years ago, he wanted to reveal more and to sell demonstration kits, but IMRA managers overruled him. Fleischmann agrees with me that CF is too big for any one company, and that excessive secrecy serves no purpose. He said that he does not have the skills to run a large R&D project or make CF into practical product. Ed Storms recently commented that in the early years, secrecy was a smart policy because companies like IMRA thought the CF problem would be solved quickly. I think that after five years they should have realized they have run into a brick wall. The problem is bigger than they thought. They should try a new strategy. As I have often said, there is plenty of blame to go around. Paranoid CF scientists keep secrets for no reason. They are their own worst enemies. Scientists like Barry, who refuse to look at the data, have held back CF. Scientists at MIT and the DoE attacked it and nearly killed it. But the CF scientists themselves bear the most blame. They are the stupidest people I have ever met! They kvetch, they whine, they complain that they get no funding and no respect. I tell them: okay, I'll sign a secrecy agreement, buy a machine, and if it works, I'll get you millions of dollars in funding. All the money you want! They refuse. They get angry with me. Some, like Russ George, accuse me of trying to steal his ideas. They do not understand business, or history, or themselves. They make the same damn mistakes other inventors have made time after time. It's awful, but what can anyone do? They are hopeless. Some of the people are liars. They claim they have a robust machine, but they know it does not work. I cannot always tell whether an inventor is paranoid or lying. It does not make much practical difference. Either way he is a lost cause. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 10:47:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24587; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971020123508.ZM3093 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:35:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> "Swartz part of problem?" (Oct 20, 12:13pm) References: <199710201309_MC2-2484-4874 compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Swartz part of problem? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"8z1HP.0.306.xPvIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Oct 20, 12:13pm, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Barry Merriman tells Mitchell Swartz: > > With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of the problem, > because you are one of the researchers who claim to posses robust and > reproducible macroscopic excess heat experiments---yet you do nothing to > assist interested scientists in investigating, replicating and > understanding your discoveries. > > I agree. Swartz does almost nothing to assist others. -------------------------------------------------------------- HEY GUYS, remember this one? Vortex-L Rules: 2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. -------------------------------------------------------------- -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 10:47:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24887; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:39:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:39:14 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710201738.MAA00798 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Corso's ripper In-Reply-To: <199710200939.CAA04026 mail1.halcyon.com> from Fred Epps at "Oct 20, 97 02:47:50 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:38:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S_ewI.0.h46.0TvIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps wrote: > The 70 year old woman who comes up to me in my bookstore when it is > empty and tells me haltingly of the little men who are in her bedroom at > night and wants to know why they are there and what they are doing, and > then proceeds to tell me details (then he looked into my eyes.. his eyes > were huge and black.. he put his little hand on my forehead and said > everything would be alright... the next thing I know I was floating through > the wall!) that I have heard over and over from many others, isn't going to > gain enlightenment from the idiotic statements of the Phillip Klasses of > the world, the denyers and the debunkers. She has not read UFO books or > watched UFO movies to get those details. She has had a REAL EXPERIENCE, an > experience that is not going to go away One would have to live a fairly sheltered existence to not be aware of the popular myths about space aliens. We know enough about false memory syndrome, confabulation, and plain old psychosis to not need to blindly accept the truth of every human perception. That this woman is seeking out counsel tends to indicate she wants to be rid of these demons. I don't have a lot of faith in psychaitry, but in many situations it seems like a better answer to the lady's desires than to validate her interpretation that the aliens may be real and she has no control over them. My own nightmares are not always pleasent, and so, I would desire medication or counseling that would help me surpress them if they started to occur during my waking hours. I definately would not want conseling from someone who, for whatever reason, decided that my perceptions were real and a window into a different dimension. I'd end up being the eyepiece to his/her telescope into the next dimenstion, and my problem would become their opportunity. The patient and doctor would have different agendas, which is not a happy situation for the patient. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 10:57:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26844; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344BC473.72CA bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:52:03 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [off topic] Corso's ripper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Pr2CC3.0.LZ6.IavIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > If anyone wants to check into Col Corso's claims, I won't try to stop > you. But I bought his book and was underwhelmed by the evidence (which > was zero) in support of his most extraordinary claims. [snip] Oops! Sorry, Vorts, I didn't mean to stir the pot so. I just wanted to inform you of a controversy which now involves several aspects of semiconductor technology. John, the claims by ACC predated Lt. Col. Corso's claims. ACC says that the initial "intervention" occured in the fall/winter of '47; whereas, Corso's story went from '59 to '61. I agree Corso seems to be a flake; but, his credentials check out. BTW, can anyone confirm that a NIKE missile site was built to protect Bell Labs? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 12:41:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17037; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020152434.006af3b0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:24:34 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <344B6E77.79E math.ucla.edu> References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BHNQQ1.0.2A4.t0xIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:45 AM 10/20/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> > >> Barry, with all due respect for your knowledge, diligence, >> and efforts, your inability to follow the literature, >> or to achieve sufficient successful experiments yourself >> do not make your conclusory statement correct. >> >> Cold fusion has been replicated, even as mainstream >> scientists are tardive in their understanding or awareness >> of this. >> > >With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of >the problem, because you are one of the researchers >who claim to posess robust and reproducible macroscopic excess >heat experiments---yet you do nothing to assist interested scientists in >investigating, replicating and understanding your discoveries. > ... other than publishing in peer-reviewed and other journals both experimental and theoretical papers, editing and distributing the COLD FUSION TIMES, including free copies to your office the list here shows, posting pointers and info here and at s.p.f, maintaining a website with copious references and URL pointers, and on occasion hosting conferences here in Boston. 1) Suggest you go BACK to the literature, and maybe hang around less with those who altered the data. 2) Also, since rumors circulate that you are actively pursuing cold fusion transmutation to gold while attacking cold fusion investigators at the same time, please address that as well. Is this true? Looking forward to your comments. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) ============================================ COLD FUSION TIMES url = http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 13:09:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00624; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:54:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:54:50 -0700 Message-Id: <344BB1C2.8A898A72 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:32:18 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Did anybody take a look to hep-th/9606171? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q5gcu3.0.d9.8SxIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 13:29:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07472; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:19:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:19:59 -0700 Message-ID: <344BBCB1.2A99 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:20:29 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lost technologies (was Re: Jed's Standard) References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020124659.00a2e100@spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QLOU_.0.aq1.kpxIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > (snip) I am occasionally > reminded of it when someone kills an incandescent light and the room goes > "suddenly" dark. I can often see for several seconds by the IR emitted > from the hot lamp fixture before it cools. > Jeeze, Robert! - You sure there's not a pit viper somewhere in your genetic code?? Doing good to see in daylight anymore - Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 14:02:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13432; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:46:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:46:23 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:23:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: Rich Murray cc: vortex-L eskimo.com, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu, halfox slkc.uswest.net, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, dennis@wazoo.com, bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, ine@padrak.com, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, kennel@nhelab.iae.or.jp, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, davidk@suba.com, trivee@topaz.kiev.ua, storms ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, z@ccyber.com, jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb aol.com, perkins3@llnl.gov, "76002@1473"@compuserve.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, BennettMiller mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris@acs.tamu.edu, droge@fnal.gov, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Recombination In-Reply-To: <3449A29F.668D earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MbZZH2.0.oH3.UCyIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Rich and-or anyone who cares to answer, Is this recombination possibly the reason for Black Light Power report of excess energy? AND: Just for us math domb types, me for instance, if I use a water and metal salt electrolyte, say 0.1 M lithium carbonate, and put "X" current-voltage-time... you specify .... what is the amount of hydrogen and oxygen generated? Say in watt seconds.... and please say what voltage and current. Heat too if you want to throw that in. If I then recombine the H and O by combustion what energy do I get, in, say watt seconds. If I combine by means of fuel cell, you specify type, then what current and voltage, and watt seconds and heat it you want ... do I get. AND: At what of any of these parameters, ie., volume of gases for "X" volts, amps, time ... do you call the results anomalous? Example: At X volts and amps you get X gas evolved and X heat. If I run everything slower so there is less heat .... do we get more gas per volts and maps and time? If so ... do we know why? What part does the insulating property of gas build up on electrodes affecting impedance play? How about surface area, surface preparation? I realize this must seem maybe too basic for you but I would really like to make a chart or table of this. What are the references. Most of my work, the work with my mentor Dr. Leland Clark, my patent in the medical field and From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 14:11:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17392; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:01:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:01:17 -0700 Message-ID: <344BC6C9.7EDB interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:02:01 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Swartz part of problem? References: <199710201309_MC2-2484-4874 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8JEKQ.0.XF4.QQyIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > (snip) (damn good tirade on inventor's desease) They make the same damn mistakes other inventors have > made time after time. It's awful, but what can anyone do? They are hopeless. > Some of the people are liars. They claim they have a robust machine, but they > know it does not work. I cannot always tell whether an inventor is paranoid > or lying. Jed, this may explain why people like Scott fail to research EVERYTHING that has been reported on CF. As a CF-no-nothing lurker on this list it seems to me that you may be in the best position to disclose an excess-heat CF protocol that might have a good chance of working. Even as I suggest this, I realize that you may be under far too many disclosure limitations to produce such a document. Too bad! I think most on this list would trust you, if it were in your hands, to produce the very best procedure available in the open literature. If such information is really not available, then maybe we should all just sit back and play with our SMOT balls until the mad CF scientists get SOME device into Kmart where I will be near the head of the line to plop down my mastercard. Now entering the second winter of my CF discontent -- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 14:47:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26108; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:35:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:35:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:31:27 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: John E. Steck part of problem? Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710201734_MC2-248B-EA15 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ECVzD1.0.mN6.awyIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; John E. Steck >INTERNET:johnste ecg.csg.mot.com John Steck jumped to conclusions. He quoted the first line of my message: > I agree. Swartz does almost nothing to assist others. HEY GUYS, remember this one? Vortex-L Rules: 2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. . . . Read what else I said, starting on the same line: He has published some well-written papers. Most of them are over my head, so I cannot judge how much they would assist other scientists . . . He claimed years ago that he has developed effective CF device. Assuming this is true, if he would demonstrate and sell this device, he would soon convince the world. People would give him hundreds of millions of dollars . . . HOWEVER, [Swartz] may be contractually constrained from doing this. I have no idea what Mitch Swartz's personal situation is, or whether he is free to demonstrate his devices. Most corporate researchers are not allowed to reveal secrets . . . Martin Fleischmann is contractually obligated to keep much of his knowledge of cold fusion secret. He wishes this was not the case. Years ago, he wanted to reveal more and to sell demonstration kits, but IMRA managers overruled him . . . Swartz may have no choice. He may be stuck in the kind of situation Fleischmann is in. I have no idea why he has not demonstrated his device. Maybe his machine is not working as well as he hoped it would. Maybe it worked before, but it has mysteriously stopped producing heat. Such heartbreaking reversals are common in this field. I do not know, I have not heard from him, I cannot judge. I am saying is that IF he has a high power robust, reliable device and IF he is free to demonstrate and IF he chooses not to, then in my opinion he is making a dreadful mistake. That's a lotta IFs. It is all hypothetical, really. Not name calling. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 14:50:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26411; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:36:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:36:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199710202136.QAA11741 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:36:51 (-050 Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Priority: normal In-reply-to: <344B4654.3E9D math.ucla.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"3THmw3.0.aS6.cxyIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John L., Barry M, Jerry, etc., > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 04:53:56 -0700 > > There seems to be a double standard in operation when it > > comes to certain kinds of experiences. Far more people in > > our society have "experienced" alien abductions than > > have "experienced" top quarks, for instance-- and yet > > one is considered good science and one is considered poppycock. The above is posted as a reminder of the subject. Again, this isn't the place for this discussion (there really is _no_ place on the 'net that I've found where a rational discussion of this subject is possible, somewhat like s.p.f. for 'cold fusion.'). Although I don't think there is a double standard at work when talking about UFOs, aliens or related subjects, I _do_ think that many people are voicing their opinions, either pro or con, without really looking at the evidence and the validity of the evidence. For example, there is a purported 'alien autopsy' film available. It shows a dissection (not an autopsy) of a body that is humanoid, but non-human. Most of the pathologists who have viewed the film have said that the body is real and is not a deformed human, and no special effects artist has said they constructed the body (even though some say that they could, given enough time and money -- but haven't been able to show that they could). There is also more than one film, and still photos from the 2 other films show a similar, but different body. The physical film itself has been determined to have been made in the late '40s and had to have been exposed prior to 1954. (As an aside, I think it was Terry B. who finally showed that the telephone on the wall was entirely consisitent with the purported date of the 'autopsy.') All evidence points to the conclusion that this 'autopsy' film is real, and shows a non-human. That's normally called an 'alien' by most people. All it takes is one example, BTW. As for UFOs, there was a rash of incidents at ICBM silos in Montana and Wyoming a few years back. The reports of the incidents state that the ICBMs were 'shut down' or made inoperative and had to be repaired. At the same time the ICBMs went inoperative, UFOs were reported to be overhead. Yes, these are 'subjective' sightings, but they accompanied objective evidence. Along similar lines, ICBMs in the former USSR were powered up and had their targetting codes changed -- again there were sightings of UFOs either above or near the ICBM silos at the time. The famous Condon report's conclusion (which was written prior to the investigation and writing of the body of the report, which is at odds with the conclusion) that UFOs are not worth investigating because they don't pose a threat to US security has been disproven with the above evidence. NOTE: I am not a UFO buff, have never been a member of MUFON, and am only slightly interested in the phenomena. However, there is quite enough evidence to show that there are indeed such things as UFOs and that aliens have been present on the Earth. That these UFOs come from other star systems is certainly _not_ proven (nor is there any evidence for that conclusion that I can find). -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 15:00:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29473; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:50:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:50:26 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020175001.006a71dc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:50:01 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Jed Rothwell is acting out again In-Reply-To: <199710201309_MC2-2484-4874 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Bm0xz1.0.RC7.X8zIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:05 PM 10/20/97 -0400, Jed continues in pernicious diatribes: >To: Vortex > >Barry Merriman tells Mitchell Swartz: > > With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of the problem, > because you are one of the researchers who claim to posses robust and > reproducible macroscopic excess heat experiments---yet you do nothing to > assist interested scientists in investigating, replicating and > understanding your discoveries. > >I agree. Swartz does almost nothing to assist others. Jed apparently remains lost in the wilderness in search of a scientific teat from which to get a few column inches for his magazine. Jed is wrong. As shown below, one might infer that this is unfortunate because, as usual, it arises from Jed's self-serving interests. I have published means to semiquantitatively correct Jed's data as others have done, but Jed ridicules the engineering, feigning lack of understanding. The work corrects his erroneous "kilowatts". Swartz, M., 1996c, "Improved Calculations Involving Energy Release Using A Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 1, 3, 219-221. Swartz, M. 1996b, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems". Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130. As others, I have been patient with Jed because he is not a scientist but has on occasion TRIED to do scientific work. However, unless Mr. Rothwell pays more attention to calibration, sensitivity, precision, and other issues, his derived values, and interpretations, will remain at sophomoric levels. Worse, Jed responds again to the scientific efforts of others like cold fusion inventors with more verbal harassment; especially those who refuse him interviews. Jed is wrong because he is unable to focus, and has directed others to such time wasting efforts, only to be followed by his pattern of then attacking the individual. In contrast, I suggested he was WASTING everyones time involving certain inventions because Jed refuses to obtain adequate calibrational data claiming he "dont need no calibration". That is probably wrong, too. Jed is also wrong because the COLD FUSION TIMES has assisted MANY in this field. I started the COLD FUSION TIMES which is the oldest journal in the field. Some here and elsewhere have hypothesized that Jed's bitchiness may in part be due to the fact that the COLD FUSION TIMES has SCOOPED Jed's magazines by months to years, and Mr. Rothwell's jealousy of the fact that the COLD FUSION TIMES only focuses on those aspects of cold fusion which WORK! Finally, Mr. Rothwell is projecting AGAIN. The record here, and on spf show that JED has a history of attacking scientists who do not do as he directs. In summary, it would be more helpful if Jed read the material and asked scientific questions instead of attacking the authors. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 15:16:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15179; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344BD44C.4B56 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:59:40 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971020152434.006af3b0@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ms8nc2.0.1j3.UHzIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > [I (Barry) wrote]: > >With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of > >the problem, because you are one of the researchers > >who claim to posess robust and reproducible macroscopic excess > >heat experiments---yet you do nothing to assist interested > >scientists in investigating, replicating and understanding > >your discoveries. > > > > ... other than publishing in peer-reviewed and other > journals both experimental and theoretical papers, > editing and distributing the COLD FUSION TIMES well, I said "with due respect"---i.e. you do plenty to promote and advance CF research...except go that extra mile and divulge your own working device! (tone of exasperation). This is why I find it all the more difficult to comprehend---your behavior seems somewhat schizophrenic to me: by day, "Mr Swartz" is the respectable CF advocate, publishing CFT and providing knowledgable, erudite commentary. But, by night, you turn into "Dr Mytchell" who has a full blown fully functional CF engine in his lab. Kidding aside, we all know you are a CF advocate on a par with Jed in energy and enthusiasm---but the big difference is you also have a working device in hand, while Jed does not. Given the rather pathetic political history of CF, isn't it time to just abandon your business-as-usual research attitude and ***give us idiot mainstream scientists some demo copies of the darned device, so we can prove its real***!. > 2) Also, since rumors circulate that you are actively > pursuing cold fusion transmutation to gold while attacking > cold fusion investigators at the same time, please address > that as well. Is this true? Yes and no. "No", I don feel that I attack cold fusion investigators. I simply call a spade a spade. "Yes", I have done, and am currently doing investigation into Joe Champions claims of transmutation. This has been a rather open secret on this forum. The investigation is not yet complete, and I don't believe in publicly reporting premature results. What public reports I have made have been to clarify public comments made by Joe Champion. Summarizing those past comments here, I've seen some interesting things but nothing I can reproduce. Seems to be the way of CF, no? You are one who supposedly has the power to change that, and I can't help being a bit annoyed by someone who preaches the "word" of CF research, but refuses to practice the "deed" by disclosing their own device. At least Jed is consistent---he is doing everything in his power to bring CF to the masses. Joe Champion is consistent in his word and deed as well, in that he works diligently with me to help me investigate his processes, in addition to pursuing his corporate and advocacy interests. Again, no personal offense intended, thats just my honest opinion, and that aside, I think you are avery intelligent and interesting fellow. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 15:29:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07543; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:21:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:21:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:18:11 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Swartz part of problem? Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710201820_MC2-248B-8BDD compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"BJqT9.0.cr1.gbzIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I said that some anomalous energy (AE) inventors are paranoid, or liars. Francis J. Stenger writes: Jed, this may explain why people like Scott fail to research EVERYTHING that has been reported on CF. I should think so! Many CF scientists are squirrely people. Scott has enough sense to steer clear of them. In the larger field of AE, frankly, I think most of the inventors are fruitcakes. Plus there are so many of them that Scott could not test all their claims, even if he wanted to. Life is too short, money is too limited. As a CF-no-nothing lurker on this list it seems to me that you may be in the best position to disclose an excess-heat CF protocol that might have a good chance of working. No, I am afraid he is not. Judging by his papers and what he says here, I do not think that Scott has the necessary skills or the scientific background to do metal lattice CF. He should wait for people like Storms and Fleischmann to "make a science of it" as the expression goes. Eventually they will learn more about the controlling parameters, if they do not die of old age first. They will publish more detailed recipes that will allow less-skilled people to replicate. I am sorry to say this, but these experts have published a great deal already, yet Scott is not taking full advantage of these publications. There are already many good recipes and guides to improving replicability. I do not think he is paying enough attention to this literature. I do not think he is in a position to contribute much to this field at this stage. Of course I myself cannot perform a CF experiment. I do not know enough chemistry or physics or electronics. Scott knows much more than I do, but judging by his performance, he does not know enough. When I talk to someone like Storms or Miles or McKubre, and they give me chapter & verse about what is happening on the surface of their cathodes, what the electrolyte chemistry is, and why, and what effect that had in a similar experiment fifty years ago . . . when they tell me how they know this or that, and how to measure the OCV, expansion, loading, surface contamination, gas production, air contamination and hundred other things, and what they plan to do next . . . well, I realize why these people are miles ahead of the pack. As I said, since we do not yet understand all controlling parameters, and since most people have no idea which parameters might exist or which might be important, CF has to be done by experts who rely on deep experience, intuition and rigor. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 15:30:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08771; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:25:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:25:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020182520.006b6c90 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:25:20 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"v6Fkj.0.y82.ffzIq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:45 AM 10/20/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> > >> Barry, with all due respect for your knowledge, diligence, >> and efforts, your inability to follow the literature, >> or to achieve sufficient successful experiments yourself >> do not make your conclusory statement correct. >> >> Cold fusion has been replicated, even as mainstream >> scientists are tardive in their understanding or awareness >> of this. >> > >With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of >the problem, because you are one of the researchers >who claim to posess robust and reproducible macroscopic excess >heat experiments---yet you do nothing to assist interested scientists in >investigating, replicating and understanding your discoveries. > Barry, Thanks for mentioning this, because it has directed me to go through my recent bibliography. Because of my respect for you, and the others in this forum, the following is a partial list of my own cold fusion bibliography. First, Barry, is it fair to say "nothing" given the following list? It is difficult enough having gotten them out, and several more are pending, and others are not on the list. Given how many in the field do not publish at all, or publish less, perhaps "nothing" is a bit extreme. ? Second, could you please be so kind as to now contribute by superimposing your own publications to this list. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) ============================================ Papers on COLD FUSION Papers on Quasi-1-dimensional Isotope Loading, Pi-Notch Behavior ---------------------------------------------------------------- Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300. Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode". Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77 Swartz. M., 1994, "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox. Minsk Belarus Swartz. M.. 1997 "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi- 1 -Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material" Fusion Technology. 31, 63-74. Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 Swartz. M., 1997, "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32. 126-130 (1997) Papers on Catastrophic Desorption and Nuclear Selection Theory ----------------------------------------------- Swartz. M., 1994 "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion" Vol. 4. "Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research Swartz, M., 1997, "Hydrogen Redistribution By Catastrophic Desorption In Select Transition Metals". M. Swartz, Journal of New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 Swartz, M., "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Papers on Calorimetry and Signal Processing ---------------------------------------------------- Swartz, M, "Noise Measurement In Cold Fusion Systems, Journal of New Energy (to be published in next issue 1997) Swartz, M.R., 1996, "Definitions Of Power Amplification Factor", J New Energy, 2, 54-59. Swartz, M., 1994 "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159. Swartz. M.. 1993 "Some Lessons From Optical Examination Of The PFC Phase-lI Calorimetric Curve". Vol. 2, Proceedings. "Fourth international Conference on C old Fusion" 19-1, sponsored by EPRI and the Of fice of Naval Research. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 15:34:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21783; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020182622.006a35d8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:26:22 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Papers on COLD FUSION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Uq1GU3.0.FK5.bgzIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:45 AM 10/20/97 -0700, Barry wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: >> > >> Barry, with all due respect for your knowledge, diligence, >> and efforts, your inability to follow the literature, >> or to achieve sufficient successful experiments yourself >> do not make your conclusory statement correct. >> >> Cold fusion has been replicated, even as mainstream >> scientists are tardive in their understanding or awareness >> of this. >> > >With similar due respect to you, you are similarly part of >the problem, because you are one of the researchers >who claim to posess robust and reproducible macroscopic excess >heat experiments---yet you do nothing to assist interested scientists in >investigating, replicating and understanding your discoveries. > Barry, Thanks for mentioning this, because it has directed me to go through my recent bibliography. Because of my respect for you, and the others in this forum, the following is a partial list of my own cold fusion bibliography. First, Barry, is it fair to say "nothing" given the following list? It is difficult enough having gotten them out, and several more are pending, and others are not on the list. Given how many in the field do not publish at all, or publish less, perhaps "nothing" is a bit extreme. ? Second, could you please be so kind as to now contribute by superimposing your own publications to this list. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) ============================================ Papers on COLD FUSION Papers on Quasi-1-dimensional Isotope Loading, Pi-Notch Behavior ---------------------------------------------------------------- Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300. Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode". Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77 Swartz. M., 1994, "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox. Minsk Belarus Swartz. M.. 1997 "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi- 1 -Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material" Fusion Technology. 31, 63-74. Swartz. M., "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 Swartz. M., 1997, "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32. 126-130 (1997) Papers on Catastrophic Desorption and Nuclear Selection Theory ----------------------------------------------- Swartz. M., 1994 "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion" Vol. 4. "Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research Swartz, M., 1997, "Hydrogen Redistribution By Catastrophic Desorption In Select Transition Metals". M. Swartz, Journal of New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 Swartz, M., "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Papers on Calorimetry and Signal Processing ---------------------------------------------------- Swartz, M, "Noise Measurement In Cold Fusion Systems, Journal of New Energy (to be published in next issue 1997) Swartz, M.R., 1996, "Definitions Of Power Amplification Factor", J New Energy, 2, 54-59. Swartz, M., 1994 "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159. Swartz. M.. 1993 "Some Lessons From Optical Examination Of The PFC Phase-lI Calorimetric Curve". Vol. 2, Proceedings. "Fourth international Conference on C old Fusion" 19-1, sponsored by EPRI and the Of fice of Naval Research. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 16:07:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27351; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971020175849.ZM5037 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:58:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> "John E. Steck part of problem?" (Oct 20, 4:34pm) References: <199710201734_MC2-248B-EA15 compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Problem <- ??? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"xOh8a1.0.Hh6.q8-Iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Oct 20, 4:34pm, Jed Rothwell wrote: > John Steck jumped to conclusions. > It is all hypothetical, really. Not name calling. Right. Only if I hypothetically subscribed yesterday. Come on guys, you're only chasing more good minds off vortex with this noise. Nothing productive will be accomplished in this exchange. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 16:19:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18565; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <344BCB05.323FE06E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:20:05 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD FCRT Final Results References: <344AF2A1.FFD5D63E microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bpDi02.0.uX4.5UzIq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > The tests, I believe are conclusive. The waveforms are clean and > real. Tests shows now how the presence of the ferrite core influent the waveform. Yes, this can be interpreted logically as the domain alignment delays is causing the anomaly but it is still not conclusive to prove it. You need to eliminate other possible cause s coming from the core. These extra tests can be more interesting than is thought, because it is possible to discover an other phenomena related ferromagnetic materials to understand better the effect. But first, it needs to eliminate non magnetic propert ies of the core (for the anomaly). For example if the effect is really related to domain alignments, a pre magnetic field polarizing the core (by a DC offset on coil or by an external permanent magnet) will dramatically change the response. forward polarizing may shorten the alignment time and destroy the effect and reverse pre polarizing may amplify the anomaly.* If these are not observed (no change by pre polarizations) imply other causes than domains delays are responsible for the effect. Also keep in mind that the even few turns simple air coils can not be idealized as a pure inductance on a enough high frequency. It will be useful to observe current waveform when the coil is totally absent. (shorted) This can show the the characteristics of the parasitics inductances and capacitance and other response times of the components on the circuit. * I repeatedly suggested the SMOT works by the magnetic inertia of the balls, while the ball encounter the return field on the exit. The kinetic gain is obtain by the weakened attraction of the return field (reversed) on the ball on exit.(field is instantly reversed when crossing the blue hole, and the domains on the ball ca n not realign instantly. This delay is exhibited as low permeability of the steel. This weakened attraction between ball and magnet cause the escape(roll away.) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 16:23:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24777; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:18:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:18:02 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971020231755.006ece94 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:17:55 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: [off topic] Corso's ripper Resent-Message-ID: <"LXamm3.0.z26.fQ-Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Terry Blanton writes: >BTW, can anyone confirm that a NIKE missile site was built to protect >Bell Labs? I used to live in Berkeley Heights, NJ, and went to Governor Livingston Regional High School, which is located at the top of a hill in Murray Hill; Bell Labs is right at the bottom of that hill. When I was in HS, I remember seeing some old ruins -- basically just a small concrete pad or floor on the ground (it has been about 25 years ago so my memory of exactly what I saw is not clear) -- near one of the playing fields of the school, and at the time it was described to me -- by whom I no longer remember -- as the remains of a Nike missle launcher that existed briefly at that site for a few years in the early sixties if I recall correctly. At the time, no one said that the missle launcher was there to protect Bell Labs, but since you mention it as a possibility, it does *sound* like a good explanation for why it was there. It was certainly not there to protect the High School. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 16:33:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03236; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020192759.006bd77c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:27:59 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Jed's Standard In-Reply-To: <344BD44C.4B56 math.ucla.edu> References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971020152434.006af3b0 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-P2-91.0.To.Na-Iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 02:59 PM 10/20/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: (about his own ongoing transmutation studies) >Yes and no. "No", I don feel that I attack cold fusion >investigators. I simply call a spade a spade. Barry: Did not mean generally. Think you have been reasonable, usually. FYI, several of us have commented as recently as last week on your personable demeanor and continued pursuit of at least some of this material. >"Yes", I have done, and am currently doing investigation >into Joe Champions claims of transmutation. This has been >a rather open secret on this forum. The investigation is not >yet complete, and I don't believe in publicly reporting premature >results. What public reports I have made have been to clarify >public comments made by Joe Champion. > This is reasonable, Barry. Should not that opportunity to avoid premature reporting, and to allow completion, apply to everyone? Rather than operate by press conference we have tried to be diligent and disseminate the information through the proper and appropriate channels. BTW How many of the published papers (previously posted) had you read before making your statement that led to the twist in this thread? Best wishes, and good luck. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 17:08:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02888; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:57:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:57:30 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971020235719.0070a548 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:57:19 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Resent-Message-ID: <"AH79Y2.0.2j.f_-Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Dean T. Miller" writes: >For example, there is a purported 'alien autopsy' film available. It >shows a dissection (not an autopsy) of a body that is humanoid, but >non-human. > >Most of the pathologists who have viewed the film have said that the body >is real and is not a deformed human, and no special effects artist has >said they constructed the body (even though some say that they could, >given enough time and money -- but haven't been able to show that they >could). There is also more than one film, and still photos from the 2 >other films show a similar, but different body. The physical film itself >has been determined to have been made in the late '40s and had to have >been exposed prior to 1954. > >(As an aside, I think it was Terry B. who finally showed that the >telephone on the wall was entirely consisitent with the purported date of >the 'autopsy.') > >All evidence points to the conclusion that this 'autopsy' film is real, >and shows a non-human. That's normally called an 'alien' by most people. IMO, UFOs are real -- but there are various hoaxes in the field including both Roswell and this so-called autopsy film. For a debunking of the autopsy film, by a professional special-effects Hollywood guy, see: http://www.trudang.com/autopsy.html Some other negative views on the "autopsy", including the above link, can be found under the section heading "The Roswell Alien Autopsy film" at: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/ For the best book that debunks the Roswell myth, see: "The Roswell UFO Crash" by Kal Korff (Prometheus Press, 1997) Kal Korff, by the way, is a UFO believer since he has seen one in California. For the best overall UFO book with a strong technical bent, see: "Unconventional Flying Objects" by Paul Hill (Hampton Roads Publishing Co, 1995) The above book is reviewed by Hal Puthoff at: http://www.accessnv.com/nids/seti2.html Paul Hill, with an amazing technical background, has also witnessed UFOs twice in his life, including a large cigar-shaped one. Try to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, because in the UFO field there is a lot of chaff. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 17:38:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13211; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:28:01 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971021082935.1bf72336 po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: Re: Did anybody take a look to hep-th/9606171? Resent-Message-ID: <"QhBjZ3.0.KE3.hU_Iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar posted the following (edited for brevity) at 22:32 1997.10.20 +0400: >Regards, > >hamdi ucar no, actually... Er, excuse my ignorance, but what precisely IS hep-th/9606171 ? (I hope it doesn't have anything to do with the pit bulls in the arena) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 17:47:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14542; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:42:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:42:17 -0700 Message-ID: <344C6DEC.25FE bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:55:08 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] Corso's ripper References: <1.5.4.32.19971020231755.006ece94 atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dtbwf2.0.3Z3.ef_Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kurt Johmann wrote: [snip] > At the time, no one said that the missle launcher was there to protect > Bell Labs, but since you mention it as a possibility, it does *sound* > like a good explanation for why it was there. It was certainly not there > to protect the High School. Thanks, Kurt. ACC's CEO said that there was a high school built near the remains of the base. What you describe is exactly what was described by the consultant to ACC and Bell Labs who originated the claim that AT&T benefitted from this "foreign" technology. You saved me a trip to NJ. The consultant presented copies of lab notebooks to the CEO of ACC as compelling evidence. Interesting that there was an antiaircraft missle base so near to Bell Labs when major population centers like NYC and LA went unprotected. I didn't realize that the Labs were so critical to the cold war effort. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 17:52:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16557; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344BFB3B.7447 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:45:47 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Papers on COLD FUSION References: <3.0.1.32.19971020182622.006a35d8 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DZpPz.0.Y24.2j_Iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > > Second, could you please be so kind as to now contribute by > superimposing your own publications to this list. > Well, my only CF-related "publication" is my attempt to replicate the CETI experiment, given on my web page. Similarly, there will eventually be a lengthy overview of my investigations of Joe Champion transmutation work, appearing in the same spot. I don't think that publication (writing or reading) is that relevant at this point in the development of CF, because there has already evolved a highly stratified research community in which a select few claim to have incredible results, and a great majority have no significant results, and then there is a tiny number on the boundary between the two who have intriguing but also extremely delicate results (e.g. nanoscale transmutation researchers like Miley). In a situation such as the above, it makes much more sense to initially work directly with the select few, rather than go through the formal paper chasing. Unfortunately, most of the select ones---for perhaps their own entirely valid reasons---don't seem to work collaboratively with scientists to facilitate with purely scientific independent replications. I abide by the above principle, in that I now invest all my "CF-time" on working with those magicians who claim to have the results and are fully cooperative scientifically. (aside to Jed: This explains why I have not properly evaluated the papers that you were very kind to send to me---though I have read many of them, and have various mixed impressions that I would very much like to put into coheerent form, when I get the time....again, I very much appreciate your sending them, and it was not wasted effort on your part.) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 18:09:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20465; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:03:32 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <344BFF58.6C10 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:03:20 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jed's Standard References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971020152434.006af3b0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971020192759.006bd77c@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M5YvW1.0.f_4.Zz_Iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Swartz wrote: > BTW How many of the published papers (previously posted) > had you read before making your statement that led to the twist > in this thread? > I have read only a couple of your papers, and so I am ignorant, as I am on many things. But I do know you have a company, and apparently working devices, etc. As Jed said, I know nothing about your business plan or legal restrictions that may exist, and of course I fully expect that you have your own personally valid reasons for managing your technology as you do. The real unlterior motive of my comments in this thread is to try and goad you into collaborating directly with some external scientists to replicate your discoveries, or to perhaps tell us whether such collaborations are underway, e.g. with some of your MIT neighbors. Really, no offense intended. It looks like you aren't going to budge on your internal technology strategy, and hey, thats your business. Hopefully you are planning some major "roll-out" in the not too distant future, though. But, surely you can perceive that the CF world is divided up rather cleanly into the "have's" and "have-nots" these days, which is frustrating for a "have-not" scientist who would like to determine the reality (or lack thereof) of the effect. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 18:14:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22070; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:09:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:09:21 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971020210901.006ce8b4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:09:01 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Papers on COLD FUSION In-Reply-To: <344BFB3B.7447 math.ucla.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.19971020182622.006a35d8 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jZ9h72.0.lO5.030Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:45 PM 10/20/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: > >I don't think that publication (writing or reading) is that relevant >at this point >in the development of CF, because there has already >evolved a highly stratified research community in >which a select few claim to have incredible results, >and a great majority have no significant results, and >then there is a tiny number on the boundary between the >two who have intriguing but also extremely delicate >results (e.g. nanoscale transmutation researchers like Miley). > Disagree with this. First, reading is relevant to any science. Systematized knowledge is what science is about, and the "ostrich" approach is not too successful. Second, your description of the research into purported stratifications is wrong. Both MIT and Harwell got positive cold fusion results. That, and the coverup of same, were significant results. Furthermore, there have been many good signficant results. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 18:29:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25132; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:21:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:21:10 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:16:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Cool .... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"QR5hA.0.S86.4E0Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., I have been in or on several mail groups over the years ... and I like vo the best. This is because I often get to read and share cool stuff ... like 77 Kelvin! I like the low GQ... or "goofy quotient"... and the lack of flames and so on. So... I attempt to give back. I will try to write some cool stuff.. and maybe others will follow. In no particular order this is some stuff I have done, seen and read. "Knowledgeable is a word that should have been clubbed to death years ago when it started crawling about like the late Lon Cheney" Thurber Met a cousin of Cheney's he had one of the first electric motorcycles I has ever seen. Built this "Unconventional Magnetic Field Generator".... and Brown U physics dept said "Don't come by... can't work" They gave me 13 reasons why. Miami U, Fla, gave me 9 reasons. Took it to my hometown and one of my high school chums said "You ought to show this to my father-in-law. He, the father-in-law was the late Douglas Barnes and he said, "Bring it over". Doug was a PE, Professional Engineer, at the PRAM Office of the Avionics Lab at Wright Patteron US Air Force Base. One of the things he wanted to see was what would happen if you put a high energy magnet, SmCo, in the 'old days' of 1980s, on the pole piece and applied power. It threw it across the room. He said "We gotta get you on the base." He did and I was prime contractor to replicate device in their labs. It would hold a silver dollar against gravity. You could turn it on OK ... but it was brutal to turn it off abruptly. We blew up a lot of stuff. Wound up with DoD report saying claims were true. To this day, even though it will separate metals, trash, allow alloying of odd combinations and a bunch of other odd-ball stuff... there are no takers. Love to find it a home. I became inducted into the odd-ball inventors club. Even found one guy who had a 'magnet' which would hold a penny... or gold.. against gravity, but used no power. Met him. Reproduced the work... and it works. Still no home for either. Among other things I have been able to actually live and do some stuff which was once science fiction. more amazing I get paid for it more often than not. Built a brain wave analyser for USAF that allows operator to "fly" a motion simulator with EEG. True. Over 12 peer reviewed published papers. No college degree ... a HECK of a lot of fun. Dr. Leland Clark, inventor of the Ckark oxygen sensor was one of my mentors. We are sitting at a family picnic lunch in the back yard of Hardy Trollander, one of the founders of YSI, Yellow Springs Instrument Company. among other things YSI makes some of the best thermistors going... and astronauts have worn them in ... ahh... 'body places'. I am about 12 and Leand and I are talking and Gene Trollander, Hardy's wife comes over and gives us the "What are you talking about? We cannot understand a word you are saying... and you might as well be talking Greek. If you can't contribute to the conversation you will have to more your chairs over by the cherry tree." Leland and I look up and say, at the same time "Science." And we up out chairs to the cherry tree. Rod Serling was a good friend and resident. I knew him as "the guy that limped." He was able to introduce me to a space capsule designer. More on this later.... and I am still sitting by the cherry tree. John Herman Schnurer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 20:02:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11799; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:57:20 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710210257.VAA13209 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Recombination In-Reply-To: from John Schnurer at "Oct 20, 97 04:23:56 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:57:06 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oReh52.0.Gu2.Fe1Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > water and metal salt electrolyte, say 0.1 M lithium carbonate, and put > "X" current-voltage-time... you specify .... what is the amount > of hydrogen and oxygen generated? Say in watt seconds.... and please say > what voltage and current. Heat too if you want to throw that in. If you are asking generally, the voltage must exceed a minimum, 1.48 volts. The current can be 100% (or nearly) efficient, but in my own Mills-like tests several years ago, detected slowly degrading efficiencies down to about 78%. At 1.48 volts, however, the reaction (and therefore the current) will proceed very slowly. So most systems crank up the voltage to get a meaningful current flow. This extra voltage is needed to overcome the resistance, and so the total voltage minus 1.48V multiplied by the amps gives the wasted heating power -- it can be half or more of the applied power. So you might really need to apply 3 volts or more. > If I then recombine the H and O by combustion what energy do I > get, in, say watt seconds. All the input energy that didn't show up in resistance heating is available in the recombination combustion. In a closed system, regardless of the current efficiency (I believe they call it Faradaic Efficiency), internal heating should equal input power. In an open system you have to very carefully measure the gas output, because, as my own test revealed, the Faradaic efficiency can change dynamically, throwing off single point calibration methods. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 23:14:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20827; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:07:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:07:45 -0700 Message-ID: <344C39DB.2E21 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:12:59 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer , vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recombination References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bGkHb3.0.955.kQ4Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, John, Zvi Shkedi et all of Bose Corp., "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells," Fusion Technology, Nov., 1995, 28, p. 1720-31, found that the apparent excess heats of 15 to 37% were reduced to zero, when proper account was made of the actual heat added back into the cell by the recombination of H2 and O2, which is readily catalized by the Pd and Ni electrodes. Their work casts serious doubts on all reports that do not take extremely careful and thorough account of this possibility. They list in their references well-known claims by RL Mills and SP Kneizys, VC Noninski, RT Bush, R Notoya, M Srinivasan, and RD Eagleton and RT Bush. This, of course, is also a crucial issue in evaluating claims of excess energy by various groups on the CETI Patterson cell, with its closely packed Ni and Pd plated beads, an arrangement certain to promote much recombination. G Miley in his reports so far has not clarified how he calculated the excess heat in his runs. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 20 23:17:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22575; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:11:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 23:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: <344C475E.15A5D7F4 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:40:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Initial Results (35-40ns FCRT confirmed) References: <3.0.1.32.19971020003333.006ac8ec@palacenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"z0k8W1.0.TW5.AU4Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack DeMule wrote: > > Hi Greg, POMD folk, > > Thank you for the latest update, Greg. > The waveforms presented are very interesting. > > First, I'd like to be clear on one point. > I don't doubt that there is a change in the > current due to Bloch wall movement.... > > This is how I understand the process of magnetizing > ferrites with short, high-current, pulses. > First the domain walls move. This happens > very quickly as the magnetons only have to > rotate a few degrees. Then the magnetons > flip over and the domain walls move back to > their original potions, but with their magnetons > rotated 180 degrees. So you should see a > leading edge spike, followed by a slower rise as > the domains begin to flip over. I believe its only Bloch wall movement that causes initial magnetization. Remember the walls are between area of atoms (domains) with their magnetic dipoles already aligned. As a Bloch wall moves. it consumes atoms from the domain area being depleted and rolls them into the wall. At the other side, it slides aligned atoms from the wall, into the dominant domain. This way dominant domains grow and opposed domain shrink. The result is the ferrites B field. > The decay in the current due to the cessation of > wall movement, and the start of the domains > flipping over, (to me) does not indicate a _reversal_ > in the current. I think this is were we disagree. Something must stop the initial current rise, Why not domain produced back EMf. Thats what it does later in the normal current ramp area. > At the very instant that the voltage is applied > to the coil the parasitic capacitance must begin > to charge. Usually, except in coils having very > few turns, (like a single pass through the center > of a toroid) this capacitive current predominates, > and it causes a short leading edge spike in the current > waveform. In your first waveform (the air core coil) > this artifact is completely missing. I don't want > to appear argumentative, I just don't understand how > this can be so. Would you please explain how this > can happen to me? I am redoing the scope images with a modified set-up. They were done on x1 probes and x5 gain booster on my scope's max gain of 10mv / div. This is NOT good for quick rise time events. I am using a 0.68 ohm resistor for the current sense in the modified set-up. This will allow me to use x10 probes and less scope gain for better rise time. I am also concerned I am not turning on the fet fast enough. The 74AC244 drivers helped a bit, but are still not what I need. As to the initial cap charge, I believe it is there but buried in the fet turn on. There is not a lot of parasitic cap here. The turns are pitched at 1mm which gives a 0.5mm spacing between turns and there is not a lot of turns 30, 15, 8, 4 (take your pick) > Best Regards, > JD HI Jack, Thanks for the feedback. Will redo the waveforms and post them soon. Got a circuit to switch the coil on in less than 5ns? -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 00:09:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA31494; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:06:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:06:09 -0700 Message-ID: <344C5432.5448E268 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:35:22 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD FCRT Final Results References: <3.0.1.32.19971021135942.006a19bc cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jknQg2.0.0i7.WH5Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: > > At 15:26 20/10/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >Would any of you who believe the FCRT waveforms are transmission line > >reflections, fet cap, or coil resonance please refer the the latest posted data. > > > >The tests, I believe are conclusive. The waveforms are clean and real. > > Good stuff Greg! You can do the experiments faster than I can keep > up with all the email! Seeing both cases with and without the > ferrite is very good. I am wondering how you are getting the CRO > traces into the computer - are they hand sketched? Hand sketched onto a scope grid then transfered to the graphic image. So they are traced twice in fact. The graphic is then compared to the scope. I would be nice to have a better set-up. > Keith Nagel writes :- > >The last two wavesforms look substantially different from the initial > >pulse shown back in Oct11. Please post the whole waveform as it would > >currently be seen, to put the current data in context. I am doing a series of three 1us ramps showing the full ramp. > I agree that the unsketched waveform is also of great interest. > But it would be much nicer if you could do it with the original > large piece of antenna ferrite and coils with calculated > inductance. Is there some problem with sliding the ferrite out > of that one? Super Gule used to hold the coil soaked through the two layers of 80gsm paper to bind the whole thing together. I am building a new taped coil that will allow me to slide the ferrite in and out. > I think there are likely to be too many things different about an entirely new coil > and ferrite core for reasonable analytical discussion. I agree. I will go back to the taped coil tonight. > One thing that worries me is the possibility that the > capacitance may now be much greater than your well spaced coil > and the initial ramp we see could be the parasitic capacitance > charging spike that Jack DeMule would like to be seeing :- Neither coil shows the parasitic cap charge, Suspect it occurs faster than the fet is turning on and is integerated with the fet, cap & coil initial ramp. You should also note the increase in size of the initial current ramp as the taps are reduced. Coil parasitic cap would go the other way. The increase in the peak of the current ramp closely follows the theory based calcuations. I will post a Excel based table which has it all locked together. > >At the very instant that the voltage is applied > >to the coil the parasitic capacitance must begin > >to charge. Usually, except in coils having very > >few turns, (like a single pass through the center > >of a toroid) this capacitive current predominates, > >and it causes a short leading edge spike in the current > >waveform. In your first waveform (the air core coil) > >this artifact is completely missing. I don't want > >to appear argumentative, I just don't understand how > >this can be so. Would you please explain to me how > >can happen? > > Another possible answer to Jack's question may be that the > fet turn-on is not really so fast compared to the expected > spike and so it is simply smeared out over the first 10ns > or so. I agree. > Greg finishes: > >The FCRT is real. Now lets get onto reducing the coil drive pulse > >width to less than 35ns and let the B field do some real work and not > >just causing back Emf. > > and Keith comments: > >Yes, I realize you are only interested in the first 50 or so ns, > > I think that this is wrong. I don't think you should be > trying to reduce your pulse width to less than 35ns. What the > waveforms are telling you is that when the current is negative, > you are recovering some of the energy that you put in during the > initial positive current pulse. So you want to capture this > entire negative pulse and turn off just as the current reaches > zero at the end of it. The goal is to use a very short energy pulse to cause domain alignment and domain avalanche through the ferrite. I don't want any current to be pumped back to the supply through the primary coil. The primary H field coil and fet are being designed to do a very special job. Stimulate domain alignment and get out just as the domain avalanche starts. Energy recovery is not their role. Each of the two coils (H and Back Emf) and support circuits are required to do a very different and specific job. It is by designing this way that a PMOD works. > Think of it from the supply's point of view. The fet turns on > and current start to flow out of the supply taking energy from > it. Then a moment later the current reverses and so is pumping > energy *back* into the supply (or bypass caps). The amount of As it pumps current back, it also starts killing the H field and domain alignment. > energy is integral[V I dt] and since the supply voltage is > constant it is simply proportional to the area under the current > waveform curve. So if the positive area is equal to the negative > area (which it is not far off in some traces) then *NO* energy > is taken from the supply for that period. > > So a following thought is that if you could use a device which > automatically turns off when the reverse current through it falls > to zero, then you wouldn't have to worry much about accurate We want it to turn off the current just as soon as ANY back Emf is produced, not when it get to zero. We save energy by reducing the width of the drive pulses to the min that will cause a Emf to be induced in the secondary coil. What the control circuits would actually do is to start out with a 1ns wide pulse and increase the pulse width to achieve some voltage induction (via domain avalanche) in the secondary coil. Once induction is achieved, the drive pulse frequency rate will be varied to tune to the domain avalanche resonance time of the physical ferrite sample. Once avalanche resonance is achieved, pulse width can be cut back. Further load required regulation is then by pulse width control. Again, the idea is to reduce input energy by using the min pulse width required. > timing and adjusting the timing under varying loading (by a > proposed power generation coil sharing the same core). The free- > wheeling diode within the fet will in theory give this to you > (in which case you should simply leave out the SBYV27-50 diode) > but I don't think they have a very fast turn off time. So what > you probably need is another SBYV27-50 diode bridging the fet > and first diode. I only use the diode on wide drive pulses (>200ns). Not needed otherwise. Its rated at 150v and 15ns turnoff. > Incidentally that reverse current pulse that we have seen must be > getting through the SBYV27-50 diode that you have there which > suggests that it does not turn off very quickly in fact. Hi John, Thanks for the input. Hope the above helps. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 00:26:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28498; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:23:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199709182315.SAA00604 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Dean Drive In-Reply-To: from Rick Monteverde at "Sep 18, 97 12:36:37 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:15:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ctECz.0.Cz6.VX5Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > If you suspend a gyro at 90 degrees with respect > > to the line, and the CG off center, I believe the > > CG will move to the lowest gravitational point > > which will hang the string off vertical -- but > > -- the gyro and the string deflection will > > precess around and around. > > couldn't there be a second gyro to offset the precession? Hide this all > in a black box and hang it from the string, and the box will hang there > dead still (if it's all tuned properly) with the string at an angle. I don't really know -- and frankly, I was kinda guessing at the first case. :-) - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 01:56:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03517; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:52:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [Off topic] Language learning Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:44:41 +0000 Message-ID: <19971021034429.AAB4438 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"czcAC.0.hs.eq6Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > I personally >know a child in the U.S. who did not learn to speak until he was around three, >because he was not taught by his parents often and he had no playmates. > >Depriving children of playmates is a form of child abuse, in my opinion. > I caught a bit of an interview of an author (Ralph Nader?) whose new work was titled something like, "Late Talkers" that points out that not all children who are late talkers are deficient. He gave many examples of great minds who were late talkers. He considered that some young minds are more interested in developing things other than language formation skills although they may understand. Some of the 'special treatment' they may receive in failing to verbalize might be encouraging them to remain silent, because even a gifted mind craves attention. This should not be taken as advice to avoid proper medical attention for such unusual children. There was the story of a child who didn't utter a word as he grew to four, then five years. His parents grew more and more frantic as they struggled for an answer from world-renowned specialists that never came. Then one day, as they sat despondently at breakfast, the child bit into his crisp toast and proclaimed, "Hey, this toast is burnt!" The parents were estatic. They snatched him up and proclaimed, "You can talk!" And they asked, "How come you haven't said anything before now?" He calmly replied, "Well, up until now, everything was fine." (Now, don't take that one seriously) Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 01:56:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03533; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:52:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Conclusion is not correct Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 03:44:44 +0000 Message-ID: <19971021034429.AAC4438 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"X13bs3.0.3t.gq6Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 06:30 PM 10/19/97 -0400, Mike wrote: > >>Scott's earnest efforts to duplicate some of the CF anomalous energy >>devices should not be met with scorn. They demonstrate a useful datum, that >>the essence of these effects is not necessarily in the apparent geometry of >>the apparatus or in the published data. > > > This does not follow. > > Mitchell Swartz Mitch, I think you may disagree with Mike's statement, but from that, you cannot infer a non-sequitar. It is reasonable to surmise that Scott's failure to replicate 'the essence of these effects' can support the idea that he doesn't have the necessary information from what he has gleaned from those publications he has read. The labyrinth of published data can be misleading, yes? and extremely specialized? and not intended as a handbook? {Which is what the field seems to need now, IMO.} Respectfully, Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 01:57:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03755; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:52:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:03:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Cool .... Resent-Message-ID: <"i2FdD3.0.Xw.Qr6Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > Even found one guy who had a 'magnet' which > would hold a penny... or gold.. against gravity, > but used no power. Met him. Reproduced the > work... and it works. Still no home for either. I can't imagine that not being a huge hit with the folks who make and use dry and/or wet gold separators. You know, camping out in the boonies and pulling out 2 or 3 ounces a day isn't a bad way to spend a summer - at least until all those pointy-hats get around to spoiling it forever. I say get it while you can. ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 01:57:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03833; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971021165446.00688ac0 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:54:46 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Dean Drive In-Reply-To: <199709182315.SAA00604 mirage.skypoint.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"en5m33.0.ax.hr6Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >Rick Monteverde wrote: >> > If you suspend a gyro at 90 degrees with respect >> > to the line, and the CG off center, I believe the >> > CG will move to the lowest gravitational point >> > which will hang the string off vertical -- but >> > -- the gyro and the string deflection will >> > precess around and around. >> >> couldn't there be a second gyro to offset the precession? Hide this all >> in a black box and hang it from the string, and the box will hang there >> dead still (if it's all tuned properly) with the string at an angle. > >I don't really know -- and frankly, I was kinda guessing at the first >case. :-) I think if you have two gyros in such a manner as to offset the precession then you wind up with no gyroscopic effect - ie if you have two gyros on the same axle spinning in opposite directions then I think they cancel and no effect will be felt in moving the axle around. I imagine there will be strong bending forces along the axle that are not obvious until it bends or snaps. This could make an impressive demonstration if the spinning wheels were hidden somehow in a casing so they were not apparent to spectators. You could probably bend or snap the rod just by waving it about in mid air. This is just my guesses but the maths says much the same - angular momentum is a vector using the right hand rule along the axis of rotation. If you have two opposite vectors then they cancel. The energy doesn't though of course because it is not a vector. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 04:21:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA23533; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:18:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:18:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199710211118.GAA19906 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, johmann@atlantic.net Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:18:20 (-050 Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Priority: normal In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19971020235719.0070a548 atlantic.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"yFBf91.0.Yl5.yz8Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Kurt, > Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:57:19 -0400 > From: Kurt Johmann > >All evidence points to the conclusion that this 'autopsy' film is real, > >and shows a non-human. That's normally called an 'alien' by most people. > > IMO, UFOs are real -- but there are various hoaxes in the field including > both Roswell and this so-called autopsy film. > > For a debunking of the autopsy film, by a professional special-effects > Hollywood guy, see: ... I've been through them all. You use the right word -- debunking. They provide no evidence against the film or it's contents, while the film provides evidence for it's existance and the existance of aliens. The only rational arguments I've seen against the alien autopsy come from M.D.s -- but it's not an autopsy in normal terms, it's a dissection. So M.D.s objecting to some of the procedures are _basing their arguments on incorrect assumptions._ And the list of objections goes on -- such as the anti-anthropomorphic argument that aliens won't look like us, especially if they developed in another star system. Maybe, maybe not. There is no rational argument that aliens won't be bipedal, for example, and several arguments that bipedalism is the best form for higher intelligences _if the process of evolution is correct._ > For the best book that debunks the Roswell myth, see: > > "The Roswell UFO Crash" by Kal Korff (Prometheus Press, 1997) > > Kal Korff, by the way, is a UFO believer since he has seen one in > California. That's a hoot. BTW, were you aware that the majority of 'UFO buffs' seem to be against the film? It's almost like they don't want aliens and UFOs to be real. > For the best overall UFO book with a strong technical bent, see: > > "Unconventional Flying Objects" by Paul Hill > (Hampton Roads Publishing Co, 1995) I agree that this is a good look at UFO reports from an engineering standpoint. However, that may not be the best view. It completely ignores the possibility that many of the sightings are of inter-dimensional 'vehicles' of some kind (maybe even the corner of a building poking into 'our' universe). But, for what the book attempts to do, it's a good job. -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 04:35:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13986; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Jed's Standard Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:42:44 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971021113523825.AAB161 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"9RY3G1.0.IQ3.IB9Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to Robert Eachus for shedding some light on the history of the transistor. I had heard that there was a discovery and patent of the FET in the '30's but did not have the detail. Germanium transistors fell out of favor soon after silicon appeared because of silicon's better stability at elevated temperatures. But there is a company specializing in germanium power transistors, which are more efficient and preferred in selected applications where the proper design rules are observed. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 04:35:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13995; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Recombination Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:01:09 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971021113523825.AAC161 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"NyjEA.0.ZQ3.KB9Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to John Schnurer's question: > Is this recombination possibly the reason for Black Light Power > report of excess energy? No. Mills' claims and confirming measurements indicate energy yields of 100 to 1000 that which would result if the given volume of hydrogen were burned with oxygen to form water. See the BLP website at http://www.blacklightpower.com/. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 04:35:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA14012; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: [off topic] Corso's ripper Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:17:53 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971021113523825.AAD161 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"PiHAg3.0.sQ3.QB9Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The question > >BTW, can anyone confirm that a NIKE missile site was built to protect > >Bell Labs? was asked and partially confirmed. What has this to do with Corso's book (haven't read) or speculations about UFOs? Bell Labs was (and is) an immensely valuable national resource deserving of all the protection it could get during the cold was phase when Nike sites were being built. For that matter, it is not improbable that Bell Labs was contributing to the development of the Nike electronics systems and there would be every reason to have a test site nearby. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 04:36:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13965; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: [Off topic] Language learning Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:34:27 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971021113523825.AAA161 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"gEfo32.0.3Q3.HB9Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A short addendum to Jed's excellent comments about language learning. Current thinking is that language capability is inherent in the structure of the brains of humans, the higher primates, and a few other animals. The brain is highly plastic during the first few years and language -- and other knowledge -- is readily absorbed (even several languages separately if the environment is rich) but this capability shuts down sometime later and language learning then becomes slow. Kindergarten begins about the time the fantastic plasticity begins to diminish. Deaf children were often thought retarded and AMSLAN (American Sign Language) thought to be content-deficient (by hearing speakers who didn't bother to learn it -- remind you of anybody we know?). So the parents didn't learn and children were not exposed to systematic language until too late. The debate about language capability in chimps and other primates raged for years with the goalposts zooming back and forth (think we have problems in CF?). Then there is Alec, the gray parrot, who has an operative vocabulary of a couple hundred words and is able to form and understand simple sentences. He was taught by observing talk between two researchers and to him, as a child would be taught language. Mike Carrell ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> > To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; > Subject: [Off topic] Language learning > Date: Monday, October 20, 1997 10:45 AM > > To: Vortex > > I said that no ordinary person could master such skills as learning Japanese > by himself, puttering around at home. John Winterflood writes: > > But every japanese kid picks it up by the age of 5 just puttering around > at home (or even just playing with other kids) without consciously > trying! ;-) > > A very interesting point! Let me explain. > > First, Japanese kids do not master their written language until around age 14, > and many remain functionally illiterate all their life. They master spoken > language by age 5, just as kids do in any culture. > > Second -- and this is the interesting part -- they do not putter around *by > themselves*. Kids must undergo intensive training by adults and other kids. It > isn't rigorous, adult style training; we call it "play" and "telling stories" > but it amounts to effective, intensive language training. Many people work > harder during their first five years of life than they ever do again. When > kids do not undergo this intensive, one-on-one training, they do not learn to > speak. There are some horrifying examples of this. Occasionally cases surface > where children have been held prisoner and abused, or abandoned in the woods. > They generally never learn to speak fluently. This may be due to trauma, but > some counter examples show it may not be. I read about a child in Japan who > lived in normal middle class house, with plenty of food, toys and no physical > abuse. The kid's hearing and vision were normal. But his parents never made > any effort to teach him and he had no playmates in their isolated, dehumanized > urban apartment. His only exposure to language was the television, which was > left on all the time. By age 4 or 5 he developed no language competency. He > thought the television was noise. He did not respond to simple statements like > "come here" or "what is this?" I do know what happened after that, but this > shows what happens when children are not trained by other people. I personally > know a child in the U.S. who did not learn to speak until he was around three, > because he was not taught by his parents often and he had no playmates. > > Depriving children of playmates is a form of child abuse, in my opinion. > > - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 04:39:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA24910; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:36:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:36:51 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021073039_783008879 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com cc: wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: EM-gravity interaction Resent-Message-ID: <"H6IwY3.0.856.IF9Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Larry, About a month ago, I posted a question in this thread, but you never responded. Maybe you've lost interest in it, or got snowed under by other matters, but anyway, here it is again: It is astonishing that a particle just sitting on a table top generates a radiation field as if it were accelerating through space and that this result is a consequence of general relativity and required to conserve energy. I can see why the EM guys who heard your presentation had a hard time accepting that. Is there any connection at all with Haus'es condition for nonradiation from an unaccelerated charge? Haus found that a charge moving at a constant velocity less than c doesn't radiate because it has no Fourier components synchronous with waves traveling at the speed of light, not because it isn't accelerated. See H. A. Haus, "On the radiation from point charges," Am. J. Phys. 54, 12 (December 1986), pp. 1126-1129. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:00:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA31979; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:49:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:49:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971021084921.006cb42c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:49:21 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Conclusion is not correct In-Reply-To: <19971021034429.AAC4438 HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"53oDH1.0.Wp7.bJAJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:44 AM 10/21/97 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: >>At 06:30 PM 10/19/97 -0400, Mike wrote: >> >>>Scott's earnest efforts to duplicate some of the CF anomalous energy >>>devices should not be met with scorn. They demonstrate a useful datum, that >>>the essence of these effects is not necessarily in the apparent geometry of >>>the apparatus or in the published data. >> >> >> This does not follow. >> >> Mitchell Swartz > >Mitch, I think you may disagree with Mike's statement, but from that, you >cannot infer a non-sequitar. > Ed: That is true from Mike's statement, alone. However, the statement combined with the results support the statement IMHO. Did Scott "fail to replicate 'the essence of these effects" or did he achieve some success at one or more settings of his system, and he ELECTED not to consider operating the system at that point in operating space? Suggest you go through my previous postings which were generally ignored here, carried on my private mail, and then ignored again. In time, we will try to put it in print, however, it is on the BACK burner since there are more important nuclear, and engineering issues to address. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) ] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:02:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA21064; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971021085015.006d5f98 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:50:15 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: More on NHE calorimetry In-Reply-To: <34442AAD.4434 math.ucla.edu> References: <199710131706_MC2-23BD-6F15 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aVaUD.0.295.JKAJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:30 PM 10/14/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >The main question I would have for F. is: after P&F's 12 years of >research, where is their demonstration that their effect is real? > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > There have been many demonstrations of excess heat AND nuclear effects with correlated ash. The excess heat was seen both in Harwell and MITs experiments of FP-classic using palladium and heavy water, and in a few other loaded systems. We have used cold fusion in nickel to generate electricity. Others have demonstrated helium-3 (Arata) production, and time dependant, leakage-calibrated helium-4 production. More information is available in the COLD FUSION TIMES or some of the refs at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:02:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA32086; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:51:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 05:51:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971021085058.006c63bc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:50:58 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: More complete set of reference papers on COLD FUSION In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971020182622.006a35d8 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WPvWe2.0.Gr7.3LAJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear vorts (and colleague Dr. Barry Merriman): For those that are interested in this subject, have found a few more pointers to published articles. These are selected based on Barry Merriman's questions. Those interested in other aspects of this field should go to the COLD FUSION TIMES' home page at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html to get scores more refs including some downloadable from the webpage. Good luck in your studies and research. Dr. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) JET Energy Technology =================================================================== A Partial list of Scientific Publications on Reactions in Loaded Solid State Media - Q1D,pi-Notch behavior, Physics, Calorimetry Papers on Quasi-1-dimensional Isotope Loading, Pi-Notch Behavior ---------------------------------------------------------------- Swartz, M., 1992, "Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Electrochemical Loading of Isotopic Fuel into a Metal", Fusion Technology, 22, 2, 296-300. Swartz, M., 1994, "Isotopic Fuel Loading Coupled To Reactions At An Electrode". Fusion Technology, 96, 4T, 74-77 Swartz. M., 1994, "Generalized Isotopic Fuel Loading Equations" "Cold Fusion Source Book", International Symposium On Cold Fusion And Advanced Energy Systems". Ed. Hal Fox. Minsk Belarus Swartz. M., 1997, "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi-1-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading into a Material" Fusion Technology. 31, 63-74. Swartz. M., 1997, "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes". lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009 Swartz. M., 1997, "Codeposition Of Palladium And Deuterium", Fusion Technology, 32. 126-130 (1997) Papers on Catastrophic Desorption and Nuclear Selection Theory ----------------------------------------------- Swartz. M., 1994 "Catastrophic Active Medium Hypothesis of Cold Fusion" Vol. 4. "Proceedings: "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research Swartz, M., 1997, "Hydrogen Redistribution By Catastrophic Desorption In Select Transition Metals", Journal of New Energy, 1, 4, 26-33 Swartz, M., 1997, "Phusons in Nuclear Reactions in Solids", Fusion Technology, 31, 228-236 (March 1997). Swartz, M., 1996, "Possible Deuterium Production From Light water excess enthalpy experiments using Nickel Cathodes", Journal of New Energy, 3, 68-80 (1996) Papers on Calorimetry and Signal Processing ---------------------------------------------------- Swartz, M, "Noise Measurement In Cold Fusion Systems, Journal of New Energy (to be published in next issue 1997) Swartz, M.R., 1996, "Definitions Of Power Amplification Factor", J New Energy, 2, 54-59. Swartz, M., 1994 "A Method To Improve Algorithms Used To Detect Steady State Excess Enthalpy", Transactions of Fusion Technology, 26, 156-159. Swartz. M., 1993 "Some Lessons From Optical Examination Of The PFC Phase-lI Calorimetric Curve". Vol. 2, Proceedings. "Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion" 19-1, sponsored by EPRI and the Office of Naval Research. Swartz, M., 1996, "Potential for Positional Variation in Flow Calorimetric Systems", Journal of New Energy, 1, 126-130 (1996) Swartz, M., 1996, "Improved Calculations involving Energy Release Using a Buoyancy Transport Correction", Journal of New Energy, 3, 219-221 (1996) Swartz, M., 1996, "Relative Impact of Thermal Stratification of the Air Surrounding a Calorimeter", Journal of New Energy, 2, 219-221 (1996) Swartz, M., 1992, "Reexamination of a Key Cold Fusion Experiment -- Phase-II Calorimetry by the MIT PFC", Fusion Facts, 4, 2, 27-40 (August 1992) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:11:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01121; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:07:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:07:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:02:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 80% efficient thermopile??? In-Reply-To: <199710180304.WAA18827 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nEmkB3.0.PH.aaAJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Guys, Can we get this information? On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Dean T. Miller wrote: > Hi Fred, > > > From: "Fred Epps" > > To: > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:10:40 -0700 > > > I am the miscreant who promised Peter the plans on the 80% efficient > > thermocouple and didn't deliver :-) I am going to scan off copies to him > > today if he can decode GIFs on his computer. I will send you these as > > well. > > Sorry I'm so late in this request, but if you still have the GIFs > available, would you be able to send them to me? I'm waaay behind in > digging through my saved email. :) > -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:20:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA24241; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:16:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021073034_1701212911 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Pi-Notches Resent-Message-ID: <"s5buY.0.ew5.riAJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, In your post of Oct. 19, 1997, you drew a distinction between product pi-notches and excess heat pi-notches. Does that mean that a pi-notch that produces helium-4 doesn't produce XSH? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:24:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03784; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:21:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:21:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:17:37 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Recombination - a dead horse Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710210920_MC2-24A0-2FC4 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jZk_m2.0.2x.HnAJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Rich Murray beats the dead horse of recombination. Like all "skeptics" he does not appear to know what the word means. Recombination is not a magic way to convert 60 milliwatts into 4 watts: [Shkedi et al.'s] work casts serious doubts on all reports that do not take extremely careful and thorough account of this possibility. Nonsense! When the excess heat exceeds the limits of recombination hundreds or thousands of times over, there is no need to take "extremely careful and thorough account" of it. Motorola's CETI cell produced heat after death for several days. There was no input, so obviously no accounting for recombination is needed. This, of course, is also a crucial issue in evaluating claims of excess energy by various groups on the CETI Patterson cell, with its closely packed Ni and Pd plated beads, an arrangement certain to promote much recombination. We all know that. In every case, total input energy has been reported and compared to output heat. No excess is reported unless output *exceeds the limits of recombination*. This has been stated explicitly in many reports from Blacklight Power, CETI, Miley, Cravens and me. We have said this over and over again, here and on s.p.f. I cannot imagine how Murray could have missed this; I think his statements are pure obfuscation. G Miley in his reports so far has not clarified how he calculated the excess heat in his runs. More nonsense. Miley's statements leave no doubt: "Voltages across the bed were held at ~2 - 3 V, with several mA of current, giving an electrical input power of approximately 0.06 W. . . . Inlet - outlet thermocouples provide a measure of the temperature increase of the flowing electrolyte typical values ranged from 0.1 to 4 deg C, corresponding to about 0.1 to 4 W output, depending on the films used. Positive outputs were observed in all cases, but due to the calorimeter technique, the values are only considered to be accurate to +0.4 W." - G. Miley, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel . . ." 3 volts * ~20 milliamps = 60 milliwatts. That is total electric power input, obviously. Output ranges from 100 to 4000 milliwatts, which is far more than the total input. Therefore, as anyone can see, recombination cannot be an issue. In larger cells with 40 ml of beads and a higher operating temperature, input is less than one watt and output ranges from 300 to 1300 watts. That also exceeds the limits of recombination by a wide margin, to say the least. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 06:31:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25715; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971021082613.ZM10768 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:26:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: John Schnurer "Cool ...." (Oct 20, 8:25pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cool .... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"6b0qL.0.hH6.7sAJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Oct 20, 8:25pm, John Schnurer wrote: > I became inducted into the odd-ball inventors club. Even found > one guy who had a 'magnet' which would hold a penny... or gold.. against > gravity, but used no power. Met him. Reproduced the work... and it > works. Still no home for either. Have you thought of approaching a company that recovers precious metals from circuit boards and electrical components? Margins are pretty slim because of the separation and refining processes. First they shred everything, float out the metals from the non-metals, pass the remains under DC and AC magnets to remove basic steels and aluminums, and then smelt to stratify the gold, platnum, titanium, copper, etc. If this device can be used to further sift through the shavings I would think harvesting could be sped up considerably by reducing refinement costs. Perhaps it was another invention before it's time? Just an idea. 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 08:15:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20976; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:09:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:09:39 -0700 Message-Id: <344CA6F5.F15615F7 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:58:29 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Did anybody take a look to hep-th/9606171? References: <2.2.16.19971021082935.1bf72336 po.pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DHTis2.0.f75.oMCJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mpowers Consultants wrote: > > no, actually... > > Er, excuse my ignorance, but what precisely IS hep-th/9606171 ? > (I hope it doesn't have anything to do with the pit bulls in the arena) This is about my Friday posting "eprint: On the Existence of Undistorted Progressive Waves .. in Nature". You can find this posting on http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird2/hyp/index.html if you deleted your copy. Anyway hep-th/9606171 is at "http://xxx.la nl.gov/abs/hep-th/9606171" Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 11:36:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10900; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971021182433.006e9270 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:24:33 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: Corso's ripper Resent-Message-ID: <"7aDoD.0.Cg2.aEFJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean T. Miller writes: >> For the best book that debunks the Roswell myth, see: >> >> "The Roswell UFO Crash" by Kal Korff (Prometheus Press, 1997) >> >> Kal Korff, by the way, is a UFO believer since he has seen one in >> California. > >That's a hoot. BTW, were you aware that the majority of 'UFO >buffs' seem to be against the film? It's almost like they don't want >aliens and UFOs to be real. The reason the majority are against it, IMO, is because it is so clearly a fraud perpetrated by Santilli for money reasons -- and it *has* paid off well for him. But of course, you don't see it this way. >> For the best overall UFO book with a strong technical bent, see: >> >> "Unconventional Flying Objects" by Paul Hill >> (Hampton Roads Publishing Co, 1995) > >I agree that this is a good look at UFO reports from an engineering >standpoint. However, that may not be the best view. It completely ignores >the possibility that many of the sightings are of inter-dimensional >'vehicles' of some kind (maybe even the corner of a building poking into >'our' universe). But, for what the book attempts to do, it's a good job. Yes, he only allows as possible the ETH and the pure physicality of the UFO in all cases. I didn't say his book was perfect. However, given the constraints under which he operates, he does a fantastic job, IMO. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 11:40:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00158; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:25:33 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971021182435.006e3380 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:24:35 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: [off topic] Corso's ripper Resent-Message-ID: <"9DB3s3.0.O2.SEFJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Mike Carrell" writes: >The question > >> >BTW, can anyone confirm that a NIKE missile site was built to protect >> >Bell Labs? > >was asked and partially confirmed. What has this to do with Corso's book >(haven't read) or speculations about UFOs? Bell Labs was (and is) an >immensely valuable national resource deserving of all the protection it >could get during the cold was phase when Nike sites were being built. For >that matter, it is not improbable that Bell Labs was contributing to the >development of the Nike electronics systems and there would be every >reason to have a test site nearby. You've stated my position as well. In the sixties, Bell Labs was a national treasure. It would be remiss if the government *didn't* consider it worth protecting. However, the connection with UFOs is this: the Roswell liars know that you have to mix fact with fiction. Thus, a Roswell liar claims that Bell Labs was a conduit for 'alien' technology (the fiction), and then that same Roswell liar throws out some little-known facts about Bell Labs, such as that it briefly had anti-aircraft protection (the fact), and then that Roswell liar ties it all together with the idea, either explicitly stated or only left to the reader's imagination, that the military protection was there because the 'alien' technology was there. Bull! Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 13:19:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27254; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:08:35 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [Off topic] Protecting Bell Labs Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710211611_MC2-24AD-517F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tfgzr1.0.hf6.voGJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I never heard that Bell Labs was protected by Nike missiles during the cold war. It wouldn't surprise me if it was. As Mike Carrell points out, Bell Labs was critical to national defense, so the Pentagon would be remiss if they did not take steps to protect it. I don't know about that one, but I do know that the major central telephone switching stations, which all belonged to AT&T back then, are heavily fortified against attack, riot or natural disaster. I have heard some of them had weapons caches. (They may still have them, for all I know.) They are equipped with heavy duty emergency power generators. A Telco once guy told me: "during a power failure only the elevator stops. It goes to the first floor and opens the door. Everything else in the building is business as usual, no matter what happens outside." Bell and the Pentagon developed many products to deal with the threat of nuclear war, the disruption of battlefield communications, and enemy intelligence tapping of the network. One of the most elegant inventions in the history of telecommunications addressed all three problems. It was packet switching. It led to the Internet, what yer' looking at. I do not know how things are today, now that we have dozens of long distance telephone companies. In some ways, the networks seem to be more fragile. Traffic is concentrated in fiber optic cables. A backhoe operator in New Jersey single-handedly shut down Wall Street and most of Manhattan. Some people complain about the breakup of the AT&T monopoly, and the confusing mish-mash of telephone companies and competition it engendered. Russell Baker and David Brinkley complain about an alleged decline in the quality of service. People even complain that prices have gone up. Maybe Brinkley said that? Well, service is difficult to measure, but the price phone calls has plummeted in the U.S., England, Japan and the other countries that broke up the phone company monopolies. Calls that used to cost 20 or 30 cents per minute now cost 10 cents! Yesterday I saw a advertisment for 5 cents per minute rates on Sunday, nationwide. I do not see how they can pull that off. I believe it costs the Telco's 6 or 8 cents on average to place the call. They must be losing money. It has become a wild and wooly business, like air travel or computers. . . . while I am meditating on the subject of high tech monopolies . . . Readers born thirty years ago may be interested to learn that computers were also run by a monopoly back then: IBM. The government tried to break up IBM, too, back when took on Mother Bell, but the case fell apart. At the time it was considered a victory for IBM, but it turned out to be a disaster. The aggregate value of AT&T soared after the breakup, whereas IBM's stock has gone nowhere. The break-up was a gift from Uncle Sam to the stockholders, and to everyone in the U.S. who makes telephone calls. I think it demonstrates why a modern high tech society must have a strong, powerful, activist central government. Otherwise we will be dominated by powerful business interests. I do not believe in laissez faire capitalism. It led to monopolies back in 1900, and it would do the same today if the government withdrew from the marketplace. Someday Uncle Sam will break up Microsoft, because it has gotten too big for its own good. Bill Gates will fight it, but in the end a break-up will make him three times richer, and it will benefit the rest of us too. Only the government is strong enough to take on Microsoft, AT&T, General Motors, Hitachi or Mitsubishi. People who think government regulators never do any good should look at their phone bill. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 15:57:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18113; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:51:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:51:10 -0700 Message-ID: <344D31A8.27156E5C microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:20:16 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD FCRT final results References: <3.0.32.19971021133244.0080fa88 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JRcES1.0.lQ4.S7JJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Greg writes : > > >I am doing a series of three 1us ramps showing the full ramp. > > Terrific; this will give us all something to chew on. > > By the way, I don't have the FET specs handy that you're > using, what is it's max risetime? Judging by your comments, > can we assume that the last published waveforms basically > show the risetime of the FET, in addition to effect of the > core in the second trace? Or more likely, a mix of this and > the other circuit parameters? The IRF510 spec's are online at IR's site : http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets.htm You need Adobe 3.0 to read them > Shock excitation of a circuit, and watching it's response, > is referred to in the literature as Time Domain Reflectometery. > Alot of the problems you have been struggling with have been > worked out by people in this field; Tektronics used to publish a > fine primer to this entitled "Time-Domain Reflectometry Measurements" > from their measurement concept series. Check this out if it's > still available, you'll love it. > > Best way to present this data is to show the raw ( no core ) > waveform, the waveform with the core, and the difference waveform. > This difference waveform will in part characterize the core response. > I wouldn't make any assumptions about energy looking at this, > as you are just looking at current. However, one can learn much > from this type of analysis. I plan to do a differential curve from the two prime waveforms to extract the ferites B field energy signature. I have already seen that different parts of the ramp change at a unique rate, its not a linear change. A zinc plated 3/16 steel bolt inserted into the coil actualls increases ramp current for the first 300ns then drops it for the rest. You can see the curve pivot around the 300ns point. Seems to imply that the bolt actually reduces permeability below 0 for the first 300ns. Weird! > It's important to realize that no one here denies that the core will > effect the circuit. What is being argued is exactly what is due > to the core and what is due to all the other elements in the > circuit. Sounds like you're already on the road to presenting this > data. > > Looking forward to the next update. > > Keith HI Keith, The 2 curves and the differential should be up in about 6 hours. Will also post the steel bolt curve. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 16:21:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08094; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:09:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:09:38 -0700 Message-ID: <344D52FB.2A76 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:12:27 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off topic] Protecting Bell Labs References: <199710211611_MC2-24AD-517F compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GN5Os.0.F-1.UWIJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > Well, service is difficult to measure, but the price phone calls has > plummeted in the U.S., England, Japan and the other countries that broke up > the phone company monopolies. Calls that used to cost 20 or 30 cents per > minute now cost 10 cents! [snip] Indeed! And if Mr. Ebbers has his way, WorldCom will offer flat rate worldwide communications. Whereas other long distance companies have spent $260B on their infrastructure, WorldCom will utilize asynchronous transfer mode (ATM) and optical wavelength division multiplexing (WDM) in a $5B network to compete. The third wave of communications technology, the virtual network, has the potential to upset the applecart once again. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 18:29:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14243; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: GeoChemistry-Hydrino Exercise Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:22:44 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcde88$ffdfb220$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GFRBg.0.TU3.CNLJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Feldspars The outer 15 Km of the Earth's crust is comprised of about 60% Feldspars; AluminoSilicates (AlOx.SiOx) with Potassium (K2O), Sodium (Na2O), Calcium (CaO), and rarely Barium (BaO). Iron can substitute for Aluminum in some types. Granite Granite is mostly a mix of Feldspars and quartz (SiO2). Weathering Exposure of granite to water containing CO2 from the atmosphere (Carbonic Acid, H2CO3) dissolves out the Sodium, Potassium alkalis and forms the Carbonates, K2CO3, CaCO3 etc. This also lowers the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere, and according to the Raymon Theory the upheaval of the Himalayas and exposure of the feldspars to rainwater-carbon dioxide weathering is going to deplete the atmospheric CO2 enough to cause another Ice Age. On the other hand the CO2 in the surface water reaching the MoHo and forming the alkali carbonates and the Zeolite-Molecular Sieve- Ion Exchange structure of the Alumino-Silicate "skeleton" might be creating the "Hydrinos" that give the Volcanos their Punch. So, instead of trying to cork the volcanos, you just seal up the cracks that are letting ground water get down to the magma. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 21 19:55:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29426; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 19:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:44:19 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer cc: vortex Subject: EXP thin Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iV2AB.0.cB7.rcMJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some kind of mundane items interspersed with some more unusual ones. More available methods and reductions to practice: All methods and reductions are available at this time. Nearly every one can be tailored to a specific application and none of these descriptions should be considered limiting. There is no specific order or grouping to this listing. Lexicon: NDE Non Destructive Evaluation NDT Non Destructive Testing Q and Q Quantification and qualification, or "How much and of What" UV Ultraviolet SWUV Short wave UN LWUV Long wave UV 1] Detection of contamination in hydraulic fluid, lubrication, Aviation and other fuels. This method extends to nearly all fluid and flowing powder or particle systems. Removal, separation and-or neutralization of same including particles. 2] Sensing of probable impending failure of electromechanical, hydraulic and mechanical systems. One aspect of this is termed "machine health". An example of an often ignored mechanical health condition is that of cables on cranes, elevators and similar systems. Such a cable can be examined on a continuous basis with new NDE methods and the site of probable failure can be pin pointed as to location. 3] A large subset of machine health includes NDE and NDT of failure or impending failure due to fatigue. Metal fatigue is known to many and this can be sensed and Q and Q derived. Less well known are other fatigue situations including but not limited to plastic, concrete, wood, mixed systems such as fiber glass and other composites, ferrous and non ferrous mixed systems, adhesive bonds. 4] Materials knowledge regarding failure and measuring same leads to improved materials, materials types, methods of manufacturing, fastening and treatment. Some examples as one or two line descriptions a] methods of bonding b] elimination of puddling of welds c] elimination of internal stresses d] control of material formation e] control of crystal growth f] bonding of incompatible materials Subset a] accelerated decay of alpha emitters b] room temperature non chemical application of intimately bonded thin films including but not limited to metals, polymers, glasses, refractories, ceramics on to and into other materials including but not limited to this group above and wood, fabric, leather, composites, concrete and other. We have not found many limits to the method. c] very high temperature stand off materials. One has been tested to in excess of 8,400 watts/cm/sq. CO2 laser CW irradiation, 1mm thick sample did not crack, punch through or break. d] closed loop energy process guidance including but not limited to; laser irradiation, induction and microwave heating, mechanical and ultrasonic bonding of many materials from IC wire bonds to polymer bonds. 5] Separation of materials includes but is not limited to: a] noble metals from ore or scrap or intermediate processes b] colloidal or atomic or ionic separation of metals from ore or scrap or intermediate processes. c] noble metals separation using no cyanide or heavy metals d] removal of heavy metals e] separation and-or removal or neutralization of gasses f] destruction of hazardous materials of all classes. g] gas-liquid-solid-plasma 6] Some very unusual phosphors we have engineered: a] phosphor which provides direct image conversion in those sections of the UV in which moths see. I call the system "Moth Eyes". b] phosphor which provides a direct imaging of SW UV. This phosphor allows you to see in the SW UV region in a safe manner and is designed to be sensitive to germicidal lamps. c] phosphor to see dufference on each side of the scientific community's somewhat arbitrary SW UV and LW UV division. d] many highly specialized phosphors designed to allow for certain materials' separation NDE. e] other even more unusual phosphores. 7] Several true autostereographic methods. To be continued.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 05:20:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA20271; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:16:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:16:34 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Infrared ESP Resent-Message-ID: <"a0Hm_2.0.dy4.WwUJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a fascinating post of Oct. 20, 1997, about lost technologies, Robert I. Eachus said that when he was in high school, he did a science fair project with standard Rhine card decks. Eachus found that he and those of his friends who could read the cards with an accuracy of 90% or better had the ability to see in the near infrared. Eachus also found that there was a window in the near infrared where those with the ability to see there could see through the cards. Psychic phenomena aren't among my interests, so I'm not at all familiar with the literature; but from time to time, in the course of reading about other subjects, I've run across discussions of psychic phenomena like Rhine-deck reading, usually in a debunking vein. I've never seen any near infrared explanation, though. Is it in the literature? If Eachus' near infrared explanation isn't already in the literature, then he may have publishable material. It seems to me that any number of mainstream journals would be interested in publishing it, possibly including Science and Nature. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 05:21:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28750; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 05:18:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971022081600_1757430486 mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"_HZq_.0.517.zxUJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A question for John Schnurer or Rich Murray or anyone else on Vortex-L: how would one use recombination to explain the heat results from Mills' gas-phase hydrogen/potassium nitrate cells? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 06:14:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27547; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:06:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:06:43 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Carbonic Acid H2CO3 and Potassium Carbonate K2CO3 schematics. Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:16:53 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdecb$3ceca3c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"8lZI61.0.vj6.XfVJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: CO2; O=C=O, + H-O-H = H2CO3: O - H / O=C \ O - H Substituting K+ or Na+ for the protons H+ will give the alkali carbonate or bicarbonate and depict how the CO3^-2 or HCO3 - (bicarbonate) ion is formed. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 06:28:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA05723; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344DFE2C.22E8A1E8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:52:52 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD update 22/10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aqV7F1.0.LP1.JvVJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have updated my site with more PMOD results. Full 1us current waveforms and a strange Steel bolt which for 600ns acts like its permeability is below 1. Just go to the home page link below and click on the update link on the home page. It will take you directly to the updated data. Good reading. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 06:45:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01581; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:32:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:32:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971022081630.006c8d4c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:16:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Recombination In-Reply-To: <971022081600_1757430486 mrin46.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AdjEE3.0.dO.F1WJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:17 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >A question for John Schnurer or Rich Murray or anyone else on Vortex-L: how >would one use recombination to explain the heat results from Mills' gas-phase >hydrogen/potassium nitrate cells? You don't. Those results stand without obvious problems....awaiting truly independent replication. We have studied the web-page information on those experiments and are considering attempting a replication. I'm glad to see you name the catalyst as KNO3. In the various web-page descriptions of this experiment, they usually refer to the catalyst without naming it but I found one mention of KNO3 and have been assuming that KNO3 is typically used. Do you happen to know what H gas pressure is typically used? Also, I believe that the latest and best results have been obtained with a tungsten filament vs the Pt filament used at U of Penn. Any info on this? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 06:52:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02042; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:35:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:35:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:30:02 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP In-Reply-To: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bB0ug3.0.lV.94WJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Tom and Vo., Normal cardboard playing cards are not transparent in the near infrared, or NIR. Some people may think if IR as heat. To give a VERY rough and general idea of bands: People are emitters in the high end, or end nearest NIR, of mid IR at roughly 8.9 to 11.75 microns. There is a 'window' in air from about 8 to 14 microns. People are about 100 F, 98.6 is pretty close to 100 F. 99 F [people] is about 37.22 C. There are some fairly good 'work horse' CCD, Charge Coupled Device imagers, solid state thet reveal the NIR OK. There can "see" the heat emission of anything 200 C or warmer... and this is about 392 F. If the playing cards were: a] at 390 to 410 F b] the markings were at sufficently different temperature of hugely different emissivity so as to cause a local variation of at least 5 to 7 degrees F ... then this may allow imaging of the markings from the non marked side PROVIDED c] the thermal differences of the markings did not become smeared in the passing from marked side to unmarked side. Also: These people could find their way around by light from ovens, toasters, flat irons and so on. Which would be cool. J On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 Tstolper aol.com wrote: > In a fascinating post of Oct. 20, 1997, about lost technologies, Robert I. > Eachus said that when he was in high school, he did a science fair project > with standard Rhine card decks. > > Eachus found that he and those of his friends who could read the cards with > an accuracy of 90% or better had the ability to see in the near infrared. > Eachus also found that there was a window in the near infrared where those > with the ability to see there could see through the cards. > > Psychic phenomena aren't among my interests, so I'm not at all familiar with > the literature; but from time to time, in the course of reading about other > subjects, I've run across discussions of psychic phenomena like Rhine-deck > reading, usually in a debunking vein. I've never seen any near infrared > explanation, though. Is it in the literature? > > If Eachus' near infrared explanation isn't already in the literature, then he > may have publishable material. It seems to me that any number of mainstream > journals would be interested in publishing it, possibly including Science and > Nature. > > Tom Stolper > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 07:14:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13079; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:02:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: BLACK LI Recombination In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971022081630.006c8d4c mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RraVS1.0.HC3.8YWJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can someone give us a simple blow-by-grinding-blow of construction of set up for verifying and replicating the Black Lt power set up? Are there technical descriptions, patents for those without www and with www access? ie, container of glass, dimension X by Y by X1 electrode [s] of 'GBD' material solution [is it an aqueous process ?] of 'VVV' and so on. JHS On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Scott Little wrote: > At 08:17 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: > >A question for John Schnurer or Rich Murray or anyone else on Vortex-L: how > >would one use recombination to explain the heat results from Mills' gas-phase > >hydrogen/potassium nitrate cells? > > You don't. Those results stand without obvious problems....awaiting truly > independent replication. > > We have studied the web-page information on those experiments and are > considering attempting a replication. I'm glad to see you name the > catalyst as KNO3. In the various web-page descriptions of this experiment, > they usually refer to the catalyst without naming it but I found one > mention of KNO3 and have been assuming that KNO3 is typically used. > > Do you happen to know what H gas pressure is typically used? > > Also, I believe that the latest and best results have been obtained with a > tungsten filament vs the Pt filament used at U of Penn. Any info on this? > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 07:23:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA08043; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:13:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:13:35 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971022091321.ZM22054 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:13:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" "GeoChemistry-Hydrino Exercise" (Oct 21, 8:33pm) References: <01bcde88$ffdfb220$LocalHost default> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GeoChemistry-Hydrino Exercise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"QrFCS3.0.bz1.EeWJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 21, 8:33pm, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > weathering is going to deplete the atmospheric > CO2 enough to cause another Ice Age. So.... all those greenhouse gasses we've been pumping into the air could potentially (gasp) SAVE our sorry butts? Don't make me sic greenpeace on you! ha ha ha. > So, instead of trying to cork the volcanos, you just seal > up the cracks that are letting ground water get down to > the magma. :-) Very interesting postulate, although do you suspect hydrinos to be the primary cause? or just a contributing factor? -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 08:08:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21448; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:01:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Recombination Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:59:20 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdefb$13b4b9e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"RNScK3.0.2F5.gKXJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Recombination >At 08:17 10/22/97 -0400, Scott wrote: > >We have studied the web-page information on those experiments and are >considering attempting a replication. I'm glad to see you name the >catalyst as KNO3. In the various web-page descriptions of this experiment, >they usually refer to the catalyst without naming it but I found one >mention of KNO3 and have been assuming that KNO3 is typically used. > >Do you happen to know what H gas pressure is typically used? > Whoa there, hold the phone. When you start mixing hydrogen with an oxidizer like KNO3.(the ingredient in black powder) you are not playing the ou game. 5 H2 + 2KNO3 ------> N2 + 2 KOH + 4 H2O and a bunch of energy! Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 08:22:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19888; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:13:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:13:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:08:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer cc: vortex Subject: Under the cherry tree Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9ubnh3.0.Ys4.VWXJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: More from after 'under the cherry tree': Subject: Starlite and other high temperature materials One evening I was reading sci.materials, about 1992, and there was discussion of a material called "Starlite". It was supposed to have good high temperature properties. The internet discussion went back and forth between several regular contributors, along these lines: It works It does not work It is a hoax It is not a hoax It contains ...... you fill in the material... After following a while I posted one of my often abrasive comments along the lines of "Some of you are in the very best materials' labs in the world. Why don't you quit blabbering and get off your seats and try to make your own high temperature stand off material?" I did not get flamed.... I did not get even one response. The topic continued to be discussed. I called JAG/IP Law Office, WPAFB, thinking if anyone would have interest in such a material, then they would. All they could tell me was they had heard of it, but no details. They did say they thought there was an article in Business Week. I called Business Week only to find the following: Article was written in UK UK Editor said writer was no longer in UK, but in New York. Back to the US and one of the Business Week folks said xxx should know and I called... SO: Back to Business Week... and a LOT of other digging the details of which I will not bore you with. The up shot of what I found is as follows: NOTE: Some of what I found and some of the persons must remain confidential at their request. Some of the material and some of the persons' names is sensitive and I would not convey this in any event. The stories billed the inventor as a hair dresser, Maurice Ward. Mr. Ward is NOT a hairdresser, this just sounds good in print. He is a chemist and has worked, among other things, in the field of cosmetic and hair care product chemistry. He also knows quite a bit about fire retardants and similar compounds. His grand daughter came up with the name. He was not going to patent of release details until he had the right agreement, which, to date, as far as I know, he has not. I will not go into too much detail but I did track down most of the test conditions the material was supposed to have been subjected to. The interesting one, it turned out later, to me was laser exposure. It took a reasonably large amount of work to find someone who was present at the tests. Wy quest was simple: Was it pulsed or CW, continuous wave, exposure. It was pulsed and no hard details on the wavelength, duration and so on were to be had. Back to square one ... or maybe I was at square 6... but I certainly was not close to the hard information. I had spoken to the people closest to Ward, agreed to confidential disclosure, and really had no useful information, short of trying to make Ward's stuff as reproduction. It took me about 15 seconds to decide to try my own. First I set some goals and guidelines: Inexpensive Easy to make Non toxic Then I went to the materials books to see what, if anything, would fill the bill. Then I looked to see what of these materials I had on hand. The list was very narrow. After several tries I was using the tried-and-true rough test, smear some wet material on cardboard, hold the cardboard in gas flame to burn off the cardboard substrate and examine the result. I was holding one of the cardboard 'coupons' in the flame with steel tweezers and the cardboard burned away and the sample fell onto the screen of the gas burner. It was at dull red heat, or about 700 C. I flipped it off the burner with a stainless steel spatula onto the slate fire surface. The sample had curled up a little like a corn chip. I was not thinking and reached down to pick it up with my fingers and it was cold to the touch. It had dumped all its heat in less than 2 seconds. I did this heat and touch test several times. The big test was a 1mm thick piece taken to Wright Labs Materials Directorate at Wright Patterson US air Froce Base. They used a 1,000 watt CO2 laser, continuous wave, peaked at 10.6 microns in the IR. The spot size was 3 mm and the beam was tuned down to 600 watts. The sample was translated at 3 inches a minute in free air. This is calculated by WL experts as being about 8,400 watts /cm/ sq. The material went to incandescence and did not chip, crack, punch through or break. No one has a home for this yet. It costs more to mail it first class than it does to make it. It is completely inert biologically and is superior to asbestos in thermal properties. Any reasonably intelligent ten year old of any nationality or gender can make acceptable material after a half hour instruction with commonly available materials. Teaching how to good material takes two hours. After firing it does not out gas up to 2,000 C. JHS PS: This is representative the method and result I apply to all of my work. At least I try to get this far. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 08:23:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20429; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:17:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:17:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:12:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: THANK YOU FRED! Re: Recombination In-Reply-To: <01bcdefb$13b4b9e0$LocalHost default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3St1n2.0.6_4.vZXJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., I hope we can get some detail here.... Is this aqueous? Do we have to keep adding nitrates? Hydrogen? How much is the stock going for? J On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Little > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 7:37 AM > Subject: Re: Recombination > > > >At 08:17 10/22/97 -0400, Scott wrote: > > > >We have studied the web-page information on those experiments and are > >considering attempting a replication. I'm glad to see you name the > >catalyst as KNO3. In the various web-page descriptions of this experiment, > >they usually refer to the catalyst without naming it but I found one > >mention of KNO3 and have been assuming that KNO3 is typically used. > > > >Do you happen to know what H gas pressure is typically used? > > > Whoa there, hold the phone. When you start mixing hydrogen with an > oxidizer like KNO3.(the ingredient in black powder) you are not > playing the ou game. > > 5 H2 + 2KNO3 ------> N2 + 2 KOH + 4 H2O and a bunch of energy! > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 08:31:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24888; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: GeoChemistry-Hydrino Exercise Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:22:35 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdefe$52e610c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"LJW6r2.0.k46.NgXJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John E. Steck To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 8:23 AM Subject: Re: GeoChemistry-Hydrino Exercise John Steck wrote: >On Oct 21, 8:33pm, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> weathering is going to deplete the atmospheric >> CO2 enough to cause another Ice Age. > >So.... all those greenhouse gasses we've been pumping into the air could >potentially (gasp) SAVE our sorry butts? Don't make me sic greenpeace on you! > ha ha ha. > >> So, instead of trying to cork the volcanos, you just seal >> up the cracks that are letting ground water get down to >> the magma. :-) > >Very interesting postulate, although do you suspect hydrinos to be the primary >cause? or just a contributing factor? They could be an energy-contributing cause (if they exist) or if the steam pressure builds up above the hydrostatic head or the hydraulic head of the overburden there is going to be an eruption. Either way, sealing the cracks to keep back the groundwater with Gunnite or Thompsons Water Seal :-) might prevent a Pompeii. BTW. The Geologist with the Himalayan CO2-Carbonic Acid-Ice Age Theory is a Ms Raymo. Regards, Frederick > >-- >John E. Steck >Prototype Tooling >Motorola Inc. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 08:53:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26024; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:45:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:45:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971022103024.006cb370 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:30:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: KNO3 + H2 In-Reply-To: <01bcdefb$13b4b9e0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lA6r42.0.SM6.p-XJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:59 10/22/97 -0600, Fred S. wrote: >Whoa there, hold the phone. When you start mixing hydrogen with an >oxidizer like KNO3.(the ingredient in black powder) you are not >playing the ou game. > >5 H2 + 2KNO3 ------> N2 + 2 KOH + 4 H2O and a bunch of energy! Very interesting...but apparently not near enough. According to "Report on Calorimetric Investigations of Gas-Phase catalyzed Hydrino Formation" (which can be found at http://www.blacklightpower.com/ureport), the experiment generates ~1E7 joules/mole of H2 as compared to ~3E5 joules/mole for H2+O2 combustion...i.e. ~30 times more energy than the max you could get from a chemical reaction. This experiment needs to be replicated. I will draw up a concise list of the parameters and post it here for comments/modification. Some Vortex members have had direct contact with Mills or Farrell and may have something to contribute. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 08:59:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27858; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <344E1A13.3C0A5422 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:21:55 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD update 22/10 References: <344DFE2C.22E8A1E8 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AZd8e1.0.9p6.1zXJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: [snip] > Full 1us current waveforms and a strange Steel bolt which for 600ns > acts like its permeability is below 1. [snip] If the anomaly is the result of the electrical conductance of the bolt, as the back EMF blocking the magnetic field path, you can check it by comparing results of non-ferromagnetic but conductive materials like Al inside the coil. Or simply use the ferrit e rod, but put a copper around the rod/coil. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 10:06:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09835; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:58:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:58:54 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: KNO3 + H2 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:54:58 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdf0b$3ba5fee0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"dSllT2.0.LP2.B3ZJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 9:49 AM Subject: KNO3 + H2 >At 08:59 10/22/97 -0600, Fred S. wrote: > >>Whoa there, hold the phone. When you start mixing hydrogen with an >>oxidizer like KNO3.(the ingredient in black powder) you are not >>playing the ou game. >> >>5 H2 + 2KNO3 ------> N2 + 2 KOH + 4 H2O and a bunch of energy! > >Very interesting...but apparently not near enough. According to "Report on >Calorimetric Investigations of Gas-Phase catalyzed Hydrino Formation" >(which can be found at http://www.blacklightpower.com/ureport), the >experiment generates ~1E7 joules/mole of H2 as compared to ~3E5 joules/mole >for H2+O2 combustion...i.e. ~30 times more energy than the max you could >get from a chemical reaction. Lets see. 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 + E (joule/mole) = N2 + 2 KOH + 5 H2O KNO3 = - 394,000 joule/mole KOH = 440,000 joule/mole H20 (steam) = 226,000 joule/mole E = 2*394,000 - 2*440,000 - 5*226,000 = 1,222,000 joules given off as heat, almost an order of magnitude below the 1.0E7 figure, but not 30 times as much. > >This experiment needs to be replicated. I will draw up a concise list of >the parameters and post it here for comments/modification. Some Vortex >members have had direct contact with Mills or Farrell and may have >something to contribute. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 10:54:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24426; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:46:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:46:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Re: KNO3 + H2 and H2O Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:45:13 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdf12$3fe4dce0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"XhMNv1.0.Nz5.mlZJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, Scott H2O + 2 KNO3 = 2 KOH + N2 + 2.5 O2 + 92,000 Joules Then 5 H2 + 2.5 O2 = 5 H2O + 1,130,000 Joules Crank in the other heat-energy sources, and you start closing the gap. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 12:25:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14462; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:18:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:18:25 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971022141811.ZM24207 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:18:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: John Schnurer "Under the cherry tree" (Oct 22, 10:20am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Under the cherry tree Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"qdlNb3.0.uX3.06bJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 22, 10:20am, John Schnurer wrote: > Any reasonably intelligent ten year old of any nationality > or gender can make acceptable material after a half hour > instruction with commonly available materials. Is similar to a multi-part thermoset material, like epoxy? Is there an endo or exothermic reaction upon compounding and how aggressive is the effect (if any)? Is there a working time before it sets up? Mechanical properties? Electrical properties? You may or may not be able to convey any of these details under the NDA, but they would go along way towards identifying potential industrial or commercial utilizations. I too was interested in finding out more information on Starlite but lacked your perseverance. Thanks for sharing what you found. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 12:50:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20377; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:44:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:44:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:39:29 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: HTM Under the cherry tree In-Reply-To: <971022141811.ZM24207 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"B0KaA.0.H-4.WUbJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We call it htm, or high temperature material. The stuff is an aqueous system. Not exothermic. About 0.9 percent expansion. Sort of like a ceramic... in some ways... because you have to fire it. In some ways not... so I call it semi-ceramic. No organic polymer used. J PS: Sure would like to sell the technology. Unlike Ward I WILL entertain offer! On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, John E. Steck wrote: > On Oct 22, 10:20am, John Schnurer wrote: > > > Any reasonably intelligent ten year old of any nationality > > or gender can make acceptable material after a half hour > > instruction with commonly available materials. > > Is similar to a multi-part thermoset material, like epoxy? Is there an endo or > exothermic reaction upon compounding and how aggressive is the effect (if any)? > Is there a working time before it sets up? Mechanical properties? Electrical > properties? We have made many different types... all have different pros and cons. I happen to like it for sensor apps... Will try to come up with list Are you enjoying the cherry tree stories? J > > You may or may not be able to convey any of these details under the NDA, but > they would go along way towards identifying potential industrial or commercial > utilizations. I too was interested in finding out more information on > Starlite but lacked your perseverance. Thanks for sharing what you found. > > -- > John E. Steck > Prototype Tooling > Motorola Inc. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 13:08:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24045; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:58:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:58:09 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971022130037.006cfb04 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:00:37 -0500 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: KNO3 + H2 In-Reply-To: <01bcdf0b$3ba5fee0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Qzgei3.0.Xt5.GhbJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 10/22/97 -0600, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Lets see. 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 + E (joule/mole) = N2 + 2 KOH + 5 H2O > >KNO3 = - 394,000 joule/mole >KOH = 440,000 joule/mole >H20 (steam) = 226,000 joule/mole > >E = 2*394,000 - 2*440,000 - 5*226,000 = 1,222,000 joules given off as >heat, almost an order of magnitude below the 1.0E7 figure, but >not 30 times as much. Fred, 1,222,000/5 is still around 2-3E5 joules/mole of H2... why are you calculating the heat from 5 moles of H2? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 13:08:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14823; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971022145331.ZM24577 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:53:30 -0500 In-Reply-To: John Schnurer "HTM Under the cherry tree" (Oct 22, 2:46pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: HTM Under the cherry tree Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nrrP-.0.Vd3.CdbJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 22, 2:46pm, John Schnurer wrote: > Are you enjoying the cherry tree stories? Yep. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 13:42:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22837; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971022161828.00a60880 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:18:28 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Infrared ESP Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Iiosm3.0.la5.XEcJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:15 AM 10/22/97 -0400, Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Eachus found that he and those of his friends who could read the cards with >an accuracy of 90% or better had the ability to see in the near infrared. > Eachus also found that there was a window in the near infrared where those >with the ability to see there could see through the cards. Not friends, family members, but there are some family friends who might qualify. Norm Macbeth and my grandfather, Iredell Eachus, spent years studying the perception of light and color because they were much better at it than the average photoengraver. Norm in particular published a lot, but between them they started two companies, Macbeth Arc Lamp, and Macbeth Daylighting. Macbeth Daylighting became part of Kollmorgan years ago, my family still owns Macbeth Arc Lamp. Norm Macbeth, Jr., and my father Iredell Eachus, Jr. inherited the respecive businesses and the sensitive eyes. It seems to be a dominant genetic characteristic, since about half of the children involved acquire it. But I'm getting away from the point. Norm senior published a number of papers, I think my grandfather co-authored a couple, and there were a number of studies out of Macbeth Daylighting when I was growing up. I even participated in a couple. But nowadays it is demeaning to assert that some people are significantly "better" than others, even if, as in this case, the right term is different. And incidently there are three different pieces all of which go together: Seeing in the dark: Macbeth Arc Lamp marketed some photometers with nice characteristics, range of 0.01 to 12000 footcandles with 1% accuracy. One summer, I helped test calibration on them. I was reading the (analog) meters and taking notes in a room with an ambient level of < 0.005 foot candles. (Try reading by the light of a candle 14 feet away...) Second, sensitivity to very low differences in intensity. The "average" person can see a difference of 25%, the average photoengraver or photolithographer could see a 10 to 15% difference. My father or I could adjust lights to be "flat" to less than 5%, before using those meters. ;-) This also translates to an ability to distinguish lots of different colors. The third is the broad spectral sensitivity. Finally, as to the "debunking" of psychic phenomena, there have been lots of experiments where this couldn't have been a factor. But I'm sure it affected the initial screening results at the Rhine Institute, where they measured a constant significant bias. In fact, when I was a freshman at MIT, there was club, the Parapsychological Research Group. I confounded everyone by doing >20 right out of 25 readings, even in low light conditions. The only reason I remember it, was that I dug up one of Norm Macbeth's papers in the 'tute library to show them. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 14:12:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08836; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:05:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:05:29 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: KNO3 + H2 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:03:35 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdf2d$f67ada20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"QiWOY2.0.x92.MgcJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 2:08 PM Subject: Re: KNO3 + H2 >At 10:54 10/22/97 -0600, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>Lets see. 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 + E (joule/mole) = N2 + 2 KOH + 5 H2O >> >>KNO3 = - 394,000 joule/mole >>KOH = 440,000 joule/mole >>H20 (steam) = 226,000 joule/mole >> >>E = 2*394,000 - 2*440,000 - 5*226,000 = 1,222,000 joules given off as >>heat, almost an order of magnitude below the 1.0E7 figure, but >>not 30 times as much. > > >Fred, 1,222,000/5 is still around 2-3E5 joules/mole of H2... why are you >calculating the heat from 5 moles of H2? If you look a couple of lines up you will see 2.2E5 joules/mole for steam, Scott. I was just brushing up on my thermochemistry to see what would happen if I didn't keep tabs on how much Hydrogen and KNO3 was being consumed. I suppose dissolving aqueous K2CO3 in nitric acid (HNO3) would be a quick way to get KNO3 + CO2 wouldn't it? A lot easier than scraping the efflorescence off the walls of a dung heap. There was a time when the nitrate needed to fire a Broadside was nearly worth it's weight in gold. Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 14:15:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27268; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710222101.RAA12904 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: PMOD update 22/10 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:55:04 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3WfPA3.0.vf6.jccJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson reported strange waveforms when using a zinc plated steel bolt in the FCRT test set. As Hamdi Ucar suggested these waveforms are actually not unexpected - a conductive insert in a coil will lower initial inductance. A brass slug is sometimes used in tuning high frequency coils, the resulting lower inductance with the slug inserted may still give a higher Q than obtained with a ferrite slug. IMO the stranger waveform is the one with the ferrite inserted! If we consider the 300ns after the pulse is applied on the current waveform we have significant over unity performance! The coil has put much more charge ( integrate the current waveform around the zero current start value ) back into the capacitor/supply than it has accepted and has been opeating from a constant voltage excitation. I have been unable to duplicate this type of waveform using many different ferrite samples, unfortunately with different shapes and sizes than Greg is using. My setup differs from Greg's in several ways, two of which are: I use a decoupling resistor between the test set supply capacitors and the power supply. I have discovered from past false overunity measurements on some of my own ideas that power supplies often behave strangely when loaded by fast pulse currents - increased output current reading lower on the supply meter in one example. I don't trust floating scope grounds for many reasons so I placed the current sampling resistor in my circuit in series with the ground side of the filter caps for the coil supply. As long as the caps are large enough, the resulting ac coupling of the signal should be unimportant. Still trying to find the magic ferrite, George Holz george varisys.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 15:20:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09734; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344E7A1E.AFA2FF9E microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:41:42 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD update 22/10 References: <344DFE2C.22E8A1E8 microtronics.com.au> <19971022.141143.9990.0.Jahuti@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YkuiD.0.0O2.OfdJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael Morrison wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:52:52 +0930 Greg Watson > writes: > >Hi All, > > > >I have updated my site with more PMOD results. Full 1us current > >waveforms and a strange Steel bolt which for 600ns acts like its > >permeability is below 1. > > > Hi Greg: > Have you considered the fact that all types of iron cores have a certain > frequency response? You should see the same thing with transformer iron, > but to a lesser degree, and high-permeability ferrite to a lesser degree > still. Don't know the physics behind it, but applying a steady AC signal > to the inductor will show that, as the frequency goes up, the losses will > > increase. That's why high quality, low-permeability ferrites are required > in > high-frequency circuits. > > Still, investigating the physics *is* interesting! > > Michael Morrison HI Michael, Check out the rest of the PMOD page. Frequency to permeability change is part of the PMOD effect. Its all there. Its the dia-magnetic action of the steel bolt in the first 600ns that's the surpise. I suspect the poor reduction in the peak current is because the steel bolt's domains and bloch walls are not too good at moving fast. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 15:45:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00271; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:37:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:37:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:10:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: More of under the cherry tree (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"s_p-Y2.0.64.11eJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: During the almost 10 years at Armstrong Aerospace Medical Research Labs at Wright Patterson US Air Force Base I was exposed to a lot of work in visual human perception. One aspect that I looked at [ha!] in depth [double ha!] was stereoscopy. Actually stereography is any method of acquiring L-R, or left eye, right eye images, storing or conveying same to the left and right eye ... separately. It was some years ago I became interested in autostereography. If you satisfy certain conditions and give LR images to the human with reasonably good binocular vision they [the human] can "do" stereopsis ... or the melding and fusing of the two images to one which conveys depth perception. If you have to wear special eye wear, such as liquid crystal shutters, polarized lenses, colored lenses or if you have to put your face into some gizmo, or the gizmo to your face, such as binoculars, Disney's ViewMaster, stereo microscopes ... then these are all in the stereography class. But is you can just look at the display with no special eye wear, and at a distance then this is autostereography. An optical grail and VERY neat stuff. There are a few still and a few moving image autos in use now. They require very precise alignment and the 'sweet spot' or zone of true autostereopsis is narrow. Some systems use head trackers to change the location of this zone. Some systems use lenticular semi cylindrical lens arrays and some use parallax methods, or both. The modern production versions often use LCD, or Liquid Crystal Display, for the image production. The lenses and-or parallax HAS to be in perfect alignment of the effect does not work. Large size LCD or projection LCD methods are not cheap. I took a different way. Instead of trying to align itty bitty things with other itty bitty things I came up with a realy system. It did not and does not require any given input, you could use slides, or CRT, Cathode Ray Tubes, the fancy name for TV or monitor tubes, or lenses if you wanted to make a camera obscura. But there was a problem. I needed a material, and optical material that did not exist, Harry Lee Task, Senior Scientist at Armstrong, an optical guy, to paraphrase, said "You need something infinitely thin, with no side to side crosstalk and perfect point to point input output correlation." Then with a smile he said "Of course no such material exists, but I have faith in you, if anyone can find it, you can." Now photographic film does this... but it does not move. I had also set the personal benchmark it would not require electro optics and would not be expensive. Harry was right, it did not exist, I had to dream it up. While it is not infinitely thin it does exhibit the other required properties and I called it "live film". It made a great display with a percieved resolution exceeding the measured resolution because the LR images came from two different paths and the eye averaged the noise. Again it has no "home". The VERY interesting part came later. We found in camera obscura applications the depth perception property could be achived with a single lens. A camera obscura is a lens in front of a screen ... often the picture is upside down unless erecting optics or mirrors are used. Under the tree JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 15:54:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00439; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:38:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:38:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971022184248.00af3880 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:42:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer In-Reply-To: References: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iRz01.0.g6.r1eJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:30 AM 10/22/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: > Normal cardboard playing cards are not transparent in the near >infrared, or NIR. Some people may think if IR as heat. To give a VERY >rough and general idea of bands: Not transparent. When we seriously measured the cards there was about a 5% translucency in the NIR. This is why we needed the face of the card illuminated more than the back to get reliable results. (Of course, backlight a playing card well enough, and you can see through it too, even in visible light. But even the bad cards transmit less than 1% in the visible.) We measured different brands and types of playing cards. Some are pretty bad, Bicycle cards were very opaque. Plastic playing cards other than Kem were pathetic, and Kem cards were not all that great. > Also: These people could find their way around by light from >ovens, toasters, flat irons and so on. Which would be cool. No, it is warm, not cool. ;-) Seriously, modern ovens when closed are pretty well insulated. If someone leaves the oven on, I'm likely to notice when I turn off the lights at night, but only because there is a vent near the back burner. Even then, I wouldn't say I see it, just that something seems wrong. But irons and toasters, or open the oven, no problem. Because the emitted light is black body radiation in the form of a bell curve centered at the corresponding temperature, just about anyone should be able to see toaster or oven elements in a dim room. Forced hot water heating systems are almost impossible, but electric blankets are no problem. I guess the best test is the iron. Set it for Cotton or Linen and I can see it, but I don't guarentee to be able to read by it. (Actually, if my wife leaves the iron on, I often notice because when the heating element cuts in or out the voltage to the house lights changes slightly. But that's only because I don't normally go in the sewing room unless the iron is on.) Oh, and last but not least, if you want to experiment with this... The best way to avoid confusion between sensing of heat on the skin and seeing IR is to get one of those dipstick heaters for engines, or an electric heater, or anything thermostatically regulated and much longer in one direction than the other. If you can see which way it is pointing, you are seeing it. If you just know where it is, that's heat on the skin. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 16:01:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03375; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:46:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:46:46 -0700 Message-ID: <344E821E.A56A67C3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:15:50 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: PMOD update 23/10 References: <199710222101.RAA12904 relay1.smtp.psi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NxuKL.0.Lq.H9eJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: > > Greg Watson reported strange waveforms when using a zinc plated steel bolt > in the FCRT test set. As Hamdi Ucar suggested these waveforms are actually > not unexpected - a conductive insert in a coil will lower initial inductance. > A brass slug is sometimes used in tuning high frequency coils, the resulting > lower inductance with the slug inserted may still give a higher Q than obtained > with a ferrite slug. I fully understand that that would happen, I mean brass is dia-magnetic. The steel bolt was interesting as it went from dia-magnetic for 600ns then ferro-magnetic for 400ns or the rest of the 1us pulse width. > IMO the stranger waveform is the one with the ferrite inserted! > If we consider the 300ns after the pulse is applied on the current waveform > we have significant over unity performance! If I reduce the drive pulse width to stop just as the current returns to zero, the supply current drops below the idle, no coil connected value. Can't get it to go negative though (damn), but this rig is not designed for OU. > The coil has put much more charge ( integrate the current waveform around > the zero current start value ) back into the capacitor/supply than it has > accepted and has been opeating from a constant voltage excitation. Glad you saw that. > I have been unable to duplicate this type of waveform using many different > ferrite samples, unfortunately with different shapes and sizes than Greg is > using. Would be happy to send you a sample of the rod. Whats's the address? > My setup differs from Greg's in several ways, two of which are: > > I use a decoupling resistor between the test set supply > capacitors and the power supply. I have discovered from > past false overunity measurements on some of my own > ideas that power supplies often behave strangely when > loaded by fast pulse currents - increased output current > reading lower on the supply meter in one example. With proper decoupling of the FCRT rig thats not necessary. The 0.1uf monolithics I use are designed for this job. They normally filter out mega amp pulses on the Vcc lines of Cmos processors. 5 to 6 seems to work well. I also back it up with a 6v 10uf tantalum. I get less than 50mv of noise across the supply. I use an external analogue meter. Never liked digitals for this sort of stuff. Use only GOOD quality capacitors. I use Philips. If you use my drive circuits, be sure to bypass EACH device with a 0.1 mono/10uf tag soldered directly from the Vcc to Gnd pins. Make the leads as SHORT as possible. I also now use a 5k 1w carbon film resistor from the fets drain to gnd to damp out ringing to zero before the next drive pulse. Another mod was to use only ONE of the 74AC244 drivers. Be sure to tie the other 3 unused, ut active, inputs low. The fet turns on about 3-5ns quicker this way. Believe the multi drives were slew fighting each other. > I don't trust floating scope grounds for many reasons so I > placed the current sampling resistor in my circuit in series > with the ground side of the filter caps for the coil supply. > As long as the caps are large enough, the resulting ac coupling > of the signal should be unimportant. I don't trust ungrounded scopes as they can induce lots of crap due to their ground loops. I REALLY suggest you measure the current as I have shown. I use 0.68, 0.1 & 0.01 ohm resistors as necessary. You need to keep the peak value around 100-200mv to keep in the optimal gain range of the scope to get good risetimes from the vertical amps. > Still trying to find the magic ferrite, > George Holz Hi George, I don't believe in magic, just hard slog engineering. Hope the above helps. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 16:11:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19837; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Recombination Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:44:39 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971022223758927.AAA189 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"oUaC71.0.rr4.uOeJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom said: > A question for John Schnurer or Rich Murray or anyone else on Vortex-L: how > would one use recombination to explain the heat results from Mills' gas-phase > hydrogen/potassium nitrate cells? > > Tom Stolper -------------------- You can't. Only someone with total ignorance of Mills' cell and process would attempt it. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 16:51:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17618; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:46:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:46:52 -0700 Message-ID: <344E8FF3.E418E73 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:14:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD 23/10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NbSZ73.0.7J4.g1fJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Several circuit mods and other info has been added. Go to the home page and follow the "Go to 23/10/97" update link. Good reading. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 18:40:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15937; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:35:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:35:31 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:35:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710230135.UAA23837 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: underwater sparking Resent-Message-ID: <"bCaAd3.0.ru3.SdgJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Several phenomena have been attributed to or associated with underwater sparking. Hal Fox and Patrick Bailey discuss these issues in a paper entitled "High-Density Charge Clusters and Energy Conversion Results" available from Fusion Information Center, Box 58639, SLC, UT 84158. The Neal-Gleeson (aka the Cincinatti Group) process, reported to cause nuclear transmutations, involves such underwater sparking. Such sparking may also involve the formation of the "charge clusters" reported by Ken Shoulders in US Patent 5,018,180 "Energy Conversion Using High Charge Density". Because of the possibility of nuclear reactions in such experiments it is reasonable to expect that an overall energy excess would be produced by the reaction. This excess should be observable as an excess heat signal. In the EarthTech laboratory we have succeeded in reproducing this underwater sparking phenomena and in making a calorimetric measurement of a cell in which steady, constant-power sparking was underway. read a brief report of this work at: http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 19:28:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00370; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:19:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:19:21 -0700 Message-Id: <344EADD2.B9DA80D3 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:52:18 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP References: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> <3.0.1.32.19971022184248.00af3880@spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7pmNG.0.c5.eGhJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] > I guess the best test is the iron. Set it for Cotton or Linen and I > can see it, but I don't guarentee to be able to read by it. Hi Robert, This is amazing. Did you tried to wear glass which only pass NIR as used on IR cameras? Theoretically, it will allow *you* to see in NIR, even on normal light conditions. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 19:32:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02338; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:24:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:24:42 -0700 Message-ID: <344EB4EB.2D395832 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:52:35 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD 23/10 #2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XKsby.0.Ca.dLhJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have just posted more PMOD test results. The results indicate that the length of the coil is important to make the FCRT effect happen. With short lengths of rod, the FCRT effect will NOT happen! Test with 28,70,98 & 168mm rods are detailed. Seems the longer the better. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 20:23:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18102; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:11:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Tree again (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WOuCb1.0.lQ4.A6iJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:10:33 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer Subject: Tree again A little story for you signal processing types, one of many. If you like these I will put down more. A fellow named Benotv wrote a book called "Stalking the Wild Pendulum" and also wrote some interesting papers regarding the sounds meditators hear. Benotv is not available but one of his associates is and is invited to help do some brain wave work. So this guy comes into the lab at Armstrong and he is invited to help us work on possible synergistic resonances of human EEG and human auditory .. but that is another story. After he leaves he satys in touch and then asks me if I know about acquisition of ECG, or electrocardiogram, the electrical signal from the heart, and I say "Yes." Then he lays out the request. He wants to acquire ECG ... but with no electrical connection to the body. No microphone or vibration pick up. And I ask "From how far?" and we come to a possible agreement based on what he wants VS what can be done, given the state of the art at the time. The distance is 3 to 4 inches from the body and he agrees to an instrument which will be placed near the heart area of the thorax. We know the chest surface moves.... very slightly and this signal, if we can get it, is OK for his purposes but no magnet or reflector is to be placed on the body. Bentov measured micromotion of the body with capacitive methods but this fellow wants NOTHING connected to the body. I know we all are immersed in a "puddle" of electric field and this ranges about 150 to 200 volts to the meter, at practically no current. I say it is possible to do this but stray fields will be an issue and he admits the studies can be done in a low noise nearly all wood building sort of far away from power lines. The idea is to sense the change in the local field caused by the micro motion of the chest cavity. Nature put the field there and we will try to use it! Here is what I came up with. I love this type of work. Some people call them "problems" but I prefer to call them puzzles. I built an electrometer and used a trick to center the signal but without the use of a large value resistor to ground as would be used in many electrometers. Two such front ends were built, identical in design and symmetrical in lay out but mirror images of each other. The outputs were fed to a differencing amplifier and the whole made an electrometer instrumentation amplifier. This fellow had no strong technical background so he enlisted the aid of a friend who did to help teach him how to run the instrument. This was part of the agreement, that he have some technical support to aid him. I sent the instrument off, with theory of operation and instructions. A couple of weeks pass and I get a call from a fellow a university in Buffalo, New York. He is beside himself. He has set this thing up on a bench at the university, under flourescent lights, in a regular lab. Not the best, nor the agreed upon conditions. He is getting a clear heart signal at 4 inches, with his shirt on and almost all of the 60 cycles per second line noise has been differenced out. The next call, weeks later, I get when they are set up in the all wood building, a barn, and they have gotten the subjects together. The gizmo is fastened to a wooden sidearm pole to be able to place it near the chest, they zero it out and go to lunch. They come back and it is up against the rail, positve going. I ask "Is it clear?" Meaning fair weather. They say "Yes." I ask "No clouds at all ... none?" And they say "Well they are a few, miles away." What we do is find it is a great fair weather current sensor, differential, and they find they have to orient it be not poiting at ANY impending weather. Later I find they are having much fun using it to be a weather sensor to the amazement of their friends. As a side note, well designed and filtered systems like this, if conveyed to an audio amplifier, will yield a wonder of low frequency electric field signals. A sort of radio naturally occurring in the audio band. A bee flying by sources tiny electrostatic fields from its wings and car tires 150 feet away or so make a sizzling sound from the electrostatic effects of the tires on the road. There is no end to these wonders and some members of the Long Wave Club of America are habituated to building recievers dedicated to picking up these sounds of natural radio. There are also a grand bunch of such signals in the water and the earth. But, again, these are other stories. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 20:29:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10907; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:16:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:16:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:10:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: underwater sparking (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4dDLb.0.Ag2.b6iJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:35:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: underwater sparking Several phenomena have been attributed to or associated with underwater sparking. Hal Fox and Patrick Bailey discuss these issues in a paper entitled "High-Density Charge Clusters and Energy Conversion Results" available from Fusion Information Center, Box 58639, SLC, UT 84158. The Neal-Gleeson (aka the Cincinatti Group) process, reported to cause nuclear transmutations, involves such underwater sparking. Such sparking may also involve the formation of the "charge clusters" reported by Ken Shoulders in US Patent 5,018,180 "Energy Conversion Using High Charge Density". Because of the possibility of nuclear reactions in such experiments it is reasonable to expect that an overall energy excess would be produced by the reaction. This excess should be observable as an excess heat signal. In the EarthTech laboratory we have succeeded in reproducing this underwater sparking phenomena and in making a calorimetric measurement of a cell in which steady, constant-power sparking was underway. read a brief report of this work at: http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 20:39:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19765; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344EDC3E.497A keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:10:22 -0700 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: underwater sparking References: <199710230135.UAA23837 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x80RG2.0.eq4.1JiJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Scott! A friend here in Dallas was working on generating hydrogen from water....he said he got hold of some aircraft spark plugs and when energized under water, they would put out a good 1/2" to 1" spark...I don't remember all the details but I think he said he opened up the finger electrode that is normally a fixed distance....never got to see this but he got the plugs from an aircraft surplus shop somewhere over near Love Field....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 21:05:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26634; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:59:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:59:08 -0700 X-ROUTED: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:56:02 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <344EF463.7E17 southconn.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:53:23 -0700 From: paula Organization: sisters of silicone, inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD 23/10 #2 References: <344EB4EB.2D395832 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JQf-_3.0._V6.BkiJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > HI All, > > I have just posted more PMOD test results. > > The results indicate that the length of the coil is important to make > the FCRT effect happen. With short lengths of rod, the FCRT effect > will NOT happen! > > Test with 28,70,98 & 168mm rods are detailed. > > Seems the longer the better. > > -- > Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson Greg - it seems that there should be a way to further slow down the signal by making a rod of alternating materials, ferite rod and something else, maybe that cling film that you use to prevent ramping ???.....just a thought......steve signal by making a composite material, alternating From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 21:11:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27712; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:02:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:02:50 -0700 Message-Id: <344EC6A7.F58549CB verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 06:38:15 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD 23/10 References: <344E8FF3.E418E73 microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oV9je3.0.sm6.eniJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg, On latest update, the effect is seen greatly amplified. Its appears that on first 30nS (20nS/div) average energy flow is negative. -What is happening if you apply pulses shorter than 30nS? -As the effect is related to length of the rod, how is the position dependence of coil on the rod? -The sense coil may greatly affect the response even disconnected, inter winding capacitances is enough to generate currents on it and back EMF. - I obtained 70MHz and 100MHz resonance freq. on 20mm diameter coils having 15-20 turns and spaced windings.I expect 70-150MHz resonance freq from your coil(s).without core. Resonance mode is useful to cancel self-inductance of the coils by their inter wi nding capacitances. So its may allow to transfer and retrieve magnetic/electric field energy faster and efficiently. I think the resonating timings of air coil could also affect the operation of the coil when the core is inserted. it is also possible the resonance mode may n egatively affect the operation and should be avoided. Anyway, it will be worth to determine the resonance freq of your coil and play on on/off timings shorter than 15nS and work on tightly wounded 10/15T coils. - Even the overall the system may not appear extract energy from the core, the core may cool down slightly while operating. Could you monitor this? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 22:19:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13933; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:14:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:14:39 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710230425.XAA16663 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: underwater sparking In-Reply-To: <199710230135.UAA23837 natasha.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Oct 22, 97 08:35:15 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:25:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dlArN.0.aP3.zqjJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > In the EarthTech laboratory we have succeeded in reproducing this underwater > sparking phenomena and in making a calorimetric measurement of a cell in > which steady, constant-power sparking was underway. Scott, you continue to amaze us with your skill and devotion. Nice work. > Because of the possibility of nuclear reactions in such experiments it is > reasonable to expect that an overall energy excess would be produced by the > reaction. This excess should be observable as an excess heat signal. I must say, though, that this doesn't follow at all. I have radioactive materials in my house (the Americium in the smoke detector, and Thorium in lantern mantels) that I bet you would be hard pressed to measure the excess heat signal. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 23:04:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05920; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:57:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710230557.AAA19525 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: underwater sparking Resent-Message-ID: <"u_uTr1.0.QS1.AUkJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:25 PM 10/22/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote: >Scott, you continue to amaze us with your skill and devotion. Nice work. thanks. it really is a lot of fun doing these experiments. >> Because of the possibility of nuclear reactions in such experiments it is >> reasonable to expect that an overall energy excess would be produced by the >> reaction. This excess should be observable as an excess heat signal. > >I must say, though, that this doesn't follow at all. I have radioactive >materials in my house (the Americium in the smoke detector, and Thorium >in lantern mantels) that I bet you would be hard pressed to measure the >excess heat signal. Good point. However, we are talking about vastly different magnitudes here. In the sources you mention, the heat output is probably in the nanowatt range. For example, I recall years ago observing (to my great awe) that the storage container for a 50 Curie Pu-238 source was noticeably warm to the touch (right after the source had been removed!)...that's 50 million times stronger than your Am-241 smoke detector source. As Sevior, Merriman & I pointed out a couple of months ago, the Th-to-Cu transmutation reported by the Cincinatti group...0.1 grams of Th xmuted in 1 hour...produces a "face-value" energy output of 750 kilowatts!!! That is unless you buy into a really fantastic multi-body reaction in which multiple H atoms from the electrolyte are simultaneously converted into D to soak up the excess energy. BTW, 1 Curie is an amount of radioactive material such that 3.7E10 disintegrations per second are occuring in the material. Generally speaking, 1 Curie is a LOT of radioactive material. We made portable XRF analyzers with 3 milliCurie sources and we got many thousands of counts/sec in the detector. In these units, the nuclear activity associated with the disintegration of 0.1g of Th in 1 hour's time is like a 2,000,000 Curie source!!!!! Jeez, no wonder it came out to 750 kilowatts. In any case, with gram quantities of material undergoing nuclear transformations in periods of an hour or so it is a virtual necessity that there would be at least a detectable heat signal...not to mention one that would probably burn down half of the lab! Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 22 23:29:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA31959; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:24:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:24:52 -0700 Message-ID: <344EE0A2.1ED1 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:29:06 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst loc100.tandem.com, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, ine padrak.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, storms ix.netcom.com, dennis@wazoo.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, davidk suba.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, yekim physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com, perkins3 llnl.gov, biberian@crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber aro-emh1.army.mil, jac@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, droege@fnal.gov, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Ninth Miley (CETI) Critique: excess heats, possible artifacts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Bydra.0.Bp7.pskJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear all, I apologize for offering up yet another tedious epistle in this series, named in order for my own convenience in keeping track of what I've done. Jed Rothwell recently described George Miley's results: "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," (First Preprint) and "Quantitative Observation of Transmutation Products Occurring in Thin-Film Coated Microspheres During Electrolysis," (Second Preprint), fall, 1996, Fusion Studies Laboratory, U. of Illinois, 103 S. Goodwin Avenue, Illinois, 61801-2984, 217-333-3772, g-miley uiuc.edu. Rothwell claims the excess heat is too great to be caused by recombination of O2 and H2 in the electrolyte, catalyzed by the large 32 cm2 area of 1,000 closely packed Ni coated 1 mm beads. Such recombination is well established to have invalidated most claims of excess heat in nickel-light water cells, as reported by three detailed, thorough theoretical and experimental studies in 1995-- two abstracts are at the end of this critique. I'll summarize Mily's description, adding questions. Miley makes it clear that calorimetry was not the main focus of these runs, so I am raising these questions mainly for pedagogic reasons, to indicate what should be included in careful attempts at replication and searching out possible artifacts. Since his team made a variety of types of beads, which all produced excess heat, it is difficult to claim that the quality of bead metal coating is the critical factor for success. No special source for high quality Pd or Ni was claimed. If high heat output can be reliably replicated for thin film systems, then that would comprise a significant advance in cold fusion research. Up to now, unsuccessful experiments are often dismissed with the claim that inferior sources of palladium were used. Hopefully, Miley's beads would be made available for replication efforts by independent researchers. In fact, low cost excess heat kits could quickly be made widely available at a low cost. Flow rate of 1-molar lithium sulfate electrolyte in light water: "~11 ml/min", ~.2 ml/sec. The beads occupy about .5 cm3. It would take about 5 seconds to move 1 cm3 of electrolyte through the cell. Digital flowmeter as source of impurities and electric potentials? How accurate? How constant? Any fluctuations? Any color changes? Bubbles? Composition after two weeks? Changes in trace D2O levels? Amount and nature of gases evolved? Any evidence for recombination of H2 and O2? Gunk deposited on inner walls of system? Amount and composition of solid debris in system? Weight change of 1000 1mm Ni plated beads? Color and surface changes on beads? Chemical assay of dissolved Ni (initially about 2 milligrams for Run #8, 650-A Ni film) from all beads to exactly determine any changes in composition? Amount of dissolved H2 and O2 over time? Total amount of electrolyte in system? Table 4a: 100 ml electrolyte. Composition of electrolyte reservoir? Entering electrolyte temperature: "approximately 60 degrees C" ""60-70 degrees C". How accurate? How constant? Run time: 310 hours. Temperature rise: "less than 0.5 degrees C". Complete graphed data of two-week run data? Accuracy? Any heat bursts? Any long-term drift? Type of thermisters? Quality of electronics? Electronic glitches? Precise location of thermisters, on top, outside tube, inside tube, inside center of flow, exact distance from cell? Any checks for different results from these locations? Possible source of electric potentials? Initial loading: Exact loading times? Graphs of initial voltage changes, until "equilibrium voltage level of 2-3 V...about an hour...A quantitative measurement of the loading was not attempted..."? Other measures to verify loading? Auxilliary heater: Power? Exact history of output? Possible source of trace impurities? Possible source of elecric potentials? "The pump and preheater consume an additional 5 W..." Pump: power, constancy, source of bubbles, source of impurities or electric potentials, mechanical energy imparted as heat to system? Voltages and currents: "~2-3 V, with several mA of current, giving an electrical input power of approximately 0.06 watt." How accurate, constant? Exact graph for two-week run? Any spikes? Long term drift? Resistance of cell, exact graph for two-week run? Amount of H2 and O2 that should be evolved if recombination is zero? Integrated electric input power for two-week run? Resistance of electrode leads, and their contribution to excess heat? Positive outputs: "in all cases" How many cases? Distribution of data? Was most heat output from steady output or spikes or bursts? Level of background fluctuation in data? "...only considered to be accurate to +-0.4 W." "...output of 0.5+-0.4 watts. Calibration corrections due to heat loses and flow-pattern variation indicated a positive excess heat." More details about heat losses and flow-pattern variation? Second Preprint mentions "Over a dozen experiments...Positive, but often very small, increases in temperature across the cell, ranging from 0.1 to 4 degrees C, were observed in all cases." Table 1, Summary of runs, gives values for two runs in round numbers, like "2 +-0.5 W", while four runs, with different composition and thicknesses of the metal films, have exactly the same excess power, "0.1 - 0.9 W". Assolutely no discussion was offered about recombination, widely known since the end of 1995 to be a crucial issue in electrolytic experiments. The current density might be considered to be as low as 60 mA for 32 cm2 bead area, or about 2 mA/cm2, exactly in the low-current regime that has been demonstrated by experiment to produce spectacular apparent excess heat, if recombination is ignored. JE Jones et al in 1995 reported readily achieving apparent excess heats of 78, 121, and even 1049% in their experiments (Table I, Representative Results from Experiments 1-6), abstract below. The electrolyte will after some time store up a level of dissolved O2 and H2. Is it possible that a level will be reached in which suddenly the cell starts to catalyze recombination with a vengance, generating excess heat from the stored-up O2 and H2 in the electrolyte? Rothwell's claim that Motorola researchers in 1995 found hours of "heat after death" production in their CETI-type cell after its input power was turned off sparked an idea in my mind today, during a wonderful group meditation this morning here in Santa Fe, "What if that heat output is from the recombination of stored O2 and He in the electrolyte? Can anyone give me the name of the laboratory, or the researchers, or any details about this report? I would also welcome being sent copies of more recent reports that discuss CETI cell power output in detail. CETI, Cravens, Miley, Little, Claytor,or Merriman could check out this scenario by setting up a cell with Pt electrodes to electrolyze a slightly acidifid H2O electrolyte with recombination prevented by enclosing the electrodes in open glass cylinders, until the electrolyte has built up various levels of dissolved H2 and O2, and then running that electrolyte through a CETI cell, with and without electric input power, to measure the output heat. Also, try a cell filled with tin shot for a control. Another possibility to be checked is that in a successful, high heat output run, there might be an electric potential leak into the electrolyte from the thermisters, auxiliary heater, pump, or digital flowmeter, causing a 10 to 100 V potential from the titanium end electrodes to the leak site, thus puting an unknown amount of electrical energy into the electrolyte, generating a high level of dissolved H2 and O2 and possibly other reactive chemicals, which would then react in the cell to generate spurious, substantial excess heat. Yet another possibility that has to be checked is that hot spots in the complex geometry of packed beads may produce segregated, stable streamlines of hot, low-density electrolyte, perhaps with altered composition and viscosity, within the cell that extend far enough from the cell to hit the output thermister, generating an excess heat signal that is higher than the actual average temperature of the whole flow at that point. Anyone who has stirred cream into coffee can appreciate how complex and stable the flow patterns can be. Only a focused intention to uncover such artifacts will discover them. The CETI patent, first filed Dec. 4, 1995, is presented in complete detail in Infinite Energy # 12, Jan.-Feb., 1997. With a flow rate of 640 ml/min, 10.7 ml/sec, 5.0 V, .48 A, 2.40 W input, the temperature rise is 5.4 degrees C, giving an excess heat of 10,079%, a hundred-fold gain. An identical control loop simultaneously ran a control cell filled with "solid spherically shapped tin shot of about twenty to forty mesh in diameter." It lost 0.3 degrees C, and so had heat loss 13.4 W. Thermocouples were positioned within inlet and outlet tubes. "Corrected" estimates for the run resulted in a claimed excess heat of 108,120%, a thousand-fold increase. The dimensions, volume, and number of beads in the three-cells-in-series design were not given. Only very summary data for a single run was given. The length of the run was not specified, nor the integrated power input, nor the detailed temperature graphs for the whole run. No discussion of recombination was given. This run was made in late 1994, when the reports about the crucial role or recombination was still new, obviously not digested and applied. No measurements of evolved H2 and O2 are described. It is probable that the control beads, "tin shot", were coated with Sn, which is not as effective a catalyst of recombination as nickel. Were the electrolytic and the control thermocouples in exactly the same locations in their outlet tubes? Were this a substantial result, readily replicated, by now there would have been resounding reports of successful replications by many teams of this simple device. I imagine that the CETI network has become frustrated, puzzled, and disenchanted by their own experiment. The experiment seems simple, foolproof. Yet, high heat output has not been replicated by others. If I am wrong, and detailed written reports exist, I would appreciate having them sent to me, so I can offer a balanced appreciation. Are there features in the attempts at replication by Scott Little and by Barry Merriman that would prevent recombination and other artifacts from operating to generate apparent excess heat? The effect is simply not understood. No nuclear products have been found, such as D, He-3, or He-4. The natural response of a team caught in the process of collective folly is to hunker down, cease searching for artifacts, release incomplete descriptions, equivocate, bargain for time, apply spin control to negative reports, offer strictly in-house controlled demonstrations to unqualified appraisers, and keep the muzzle on those few outside scientists who are allowed to attempt replication of the patented cells, while finding enough funding to either establish the inital effect, or find a new, more productive experiment. This is probably the case with BlackLight Power, and may be starting to be the process with the Cincinnati Group. "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100% during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells," JE Jones, LD Hansen, SE Jones, DS Shelton, JM Thorne, Brigham Young U., Provo, Utah 84602, "J. Physical Chem.," 1995, 99, 6973-6979: The purpose of this study is to evaluate claims of excess heat generation during water electrolysis. Several cells were constructed and operated similarly to low-current-density cells described in the literature. All produced excess heat as defined and calculated in the literature reports, but the production of excess heat could be readily terminated by the introduction of various barriers to the migration of hydrogen and oxygen. Remarkably, published reports of excess heat fail to disprove the presence of decreased faradaic efficiency (e.g., current that oxidizes H2 or reduces O2) or systematic calorimetric errors. Illustrative examples of both porblems aare given. Thus, failure to rule out prosaic explanations probably invalidates all the currently available reports of excess heat in both light water--Ni/Pt and heavy water--Pd/Pt cells. There is no compelling evidence that excess heat is of a nuclear origin in such electrolytic cells. "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells," ZS Shkedi, RC McDonald, JJ Breen, SJ Maguire, J Veranth, Bose Corp., Framingham, Massachusetts 01701, "Fusion Technology," Nov., 1995, 28, 1720-1731: Apparent excess heat is observed in light water electrolyic cells containing a variety of nickel cathodes, a platinum anode, and an electrolyte of K2CO3 in H2O. High-accuracy calorimetric measurements show apparent excess heat in the range of 15 to 37 % of input power if a 100% Faraday efficiency is assumed for H2 and O2 gas release. The H2 and O2 gases released during electrolysis are recombined in a vessel external to the cell, and the quantity of recombined H2O is compared with the quantity of H2O expected from 100% efficient electrolysis. The measured Faraday efficiency is shown to be significantly <100%,and conventional chemistry can account for the entire amount of observed apparent excess heat to within a accuracy of better than 0.5%. Notes by Murray: The Jones cells used K2CO3, with currents of 1 to 8 milliamp. The Shkedi cells were run at high current levels of 0.18, 0.35, and 0.6 A. Shkedi: "Because of the high level of interest in heavy water experiments involving the original Fleischmann and Pons configuration, i.e., palladium cathodes in LiOD and D2O electrolytes, a large number of experiments were performed in such cells as well using a large variety of metallurgically different palladium. Twenty eight closed cells and 126 open cells were operated for a total of 1440 and 2760 cell-days, respectively. The heavy water cells were operated at much higher current densities than the light water cells, so the Faraday efficiency should be higher. However, since none of these cells showed any excess heat, no attempts were made to measure the Faraday efficiency." Murray: Little lists 13 claimed positive excess heat results, many by eminent laboratories, but not the above two studies. We see then that a multitude of interesting, convincing positive claims in the cold fusion field may be all invalidated. As my friend Sondra, an acapuncturist, told me tonight at Luby's Cafeteria, "It looks like in science, sometimes you prove you're right, and most of the time you prove you're wrong." I said, "That's real science, for sure!" It is needful to be very cautious indeed in evaluating claims in this field. Shkedi ran four light-water Ni cells at 180 to 600 mA for up to 4 days a run with an average power accuracy of 0.6 mW. All released H2 and O2 were carefully recombined and returned to the cells. Assuming 100 % Faraday efficiency, as did most studies of this reaction, he found apparent excess power of 15 to 37 %, reduced to zero when the actual recombination efficiency was factored in. Shkedi also ran, but did not describe in detail, 154 palladium D2O cells, with the same null results. Confirming was a report by JE Jones et all at Brigham Young U., "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100 % during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells," J. Physical Chem., 1995, 99, p. 6973-79. They also did not cite "Excess" in their 20 references. They used low current densities of 1-2 mA/cm2. "Excess", as did other similar studies, seemed to find more excess heat with K2CO3 than with Na2CO3. Jones wrote on page 6978: "In agreement with a recent report (20) showing that different electrolytes produce differing bubble sizes in aqueous solution, our experiments show that the difference between NaCO3 and K2CO3 as electrolytes probably is due to differences in interfacial properties of the solutions at the electrodes. The H2 bubbles were smaller when K2CO3 was the electrolyte than when Na2CO3 was the electrolyte in the same cell. Smaller bubbles allow better mobility of gases in the electrolyte and contact between the electrolyte and the electrode surface, thus allowing more frequent reaction of dissolved gases. When detergent was aded to the Na2CO3 electrolyte, the bubbles became much smaller, did not adhere to the electrode, and resulted in about the same rate of apparent excess heat as was observed with the K2CO3 electrolyte." This shows how subtle and unexpected the artifacts can be in these deceptively simple experiments. I hope this work is helpful. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 rmforall earthlink.net 505-986-9103 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 01:49:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28227; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:45:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:22:43 +1100 Message-Id: <199710231022.VAA26109 main.murray.net.au> X-Sender: egel main.murray.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Geoff Egel Subject: Re: underwater sparking Resent-Message-ID: <"OBQI63.0.zu6.wwmJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:35 PM 10/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >Several phenomena have been attributed to or associated with underwater >sparking. Hal Fox and Patrick Bailey discuss these issues in a paper >entitled "High-Density Charge Clusters and Energy Conversion Results" >available from Fusion Information Center, Box 58639, SLC, UT 84158. The >Neal-Gleeson (aka the Cincinatti Group) process, reported to cause nuclear >transmutations, involves such underwater sparking. Such sparking may also >involve the formation of the "charge clusters" reported by Ken Shoulders in >US Patent 5,018,180 "Energy Conversion Using High Charge Density". > In his book Callum Coates describes how Viktor Schauber used to observe sparking of rocks while being carried along in the streams in his beloved forests Seems Nature knows the secret. Geoff >Because of the possibility of nuclear reactions in such experiments it is >reasonable to expect that an overall energy excess would be produced by the >reaction. This excess should be observable as an excess heat signal. > >In the EarthTech laboratory we have succeeded in reproducing this underwater >sparking phenomena and in making a calorimetric measurement of a cell in >which steady, constant-power sparking was underway. > >read a brief report of this work at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/sparkly/report > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 02:21:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA15723; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 02:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344F163A.BEC126D6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:47:47 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG Hints Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TU0_42.0.Pr3.bPnJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jean-Louis, Just a quick reply for now. Going out. >From the photo the flux gate discs look much too big. The magnet, ferrite for the coil's core and the flux gate should be the same diameter. The length of the magnet strip to turn on / off the reed relay looks very much too long. The coil should only short for 5mm of passage of the 10mm dia flux gate. It should short just as the leading edge of the flux gate is at the outer edge of the magnet / ferrite air gap and open just as the leading edge of the flux gate reaches the centre line of the magnet / ferrite rod assy. The total distance here is 5mm. As that occurs on a 80mm dia circle and the switching magnets are mounted on the outer edge of the 100mm dia perspex disk, the length should be around 5mm or less. If the reed relay timing is set-up ok, you can insert a 9v battery in the coil / reed relay circuit. This "Watson Motor" should run with either battery polarity, but will run better with battery current that causes the coils to produce a like pole face in the air gap as that of the magnet. If you use a double pole, double throw, centre off toggle switch, you can run the unit up to about 500rpm and then throw the switch to the other position and the unit should self power. Stefan is right, I haven't built this unit yet. Will start this weekend. It is a VERY simple version of my more complex 6 pole, 5 stator unit. Hope the above quick reply helps. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 03:24:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA10222; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:21:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:21:49 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:21:06 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: underwater sparking In-Reply-To: <199710230557.AAA19525 natasha.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pZI9g3.0.eV2.xKoJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Scott Little wrote: > > In these units, the nuclear activity associated with the disintegration of > 0.1g of Th in 1 hour's time is like a 2,000,000 Curie source!!!!! Jeez, no > wonder it came out to 750 kilowatts. > > In any case, with gram quantities of material undergoing nuclear > transformations in periods of an hour or so it is a virtual necessity that > there would be at least a detectable heat signal...not to mention one that > would probably burn down half of the lab! Scott you now realize why old nuclear Physicists like Dick Blue think the CF is pure bunk. The heat is nothing, everyone within 100 meters would be dead from the radiation dose. This horse has been beat to death. It remains one of the biggest obstacles to mainstream acceptance and gives me the most reason to doubt CF is real. It is very hard to imagine nuclear processes occuring that do not give ionizing radiation at the one part in 10^18 level! Cheers Martin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 04:44:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA20220; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:40:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:40:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Magnus Effect in Ball and Roller Bearings? Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:38:13 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdfa8$25a680e0$8593410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"6vWVZ.0.sx4.gUpJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex What pressure drop could one expect from a ball or roller bearing with a 1" diameter "race" with 1/8" balls or rollers, turning at 18,000 RPM? Would this be considered a fast-curve ball vortex with any bearing on the subject ? :-) Do you get the drift, Frank? :-) Regards, Regards Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 05:15:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA24685; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:11:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:11:59 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: underwater sparking + heat yield from CG cell Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:01:27 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971023121407130.AAB144 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"YJ4I01.0.T16.EypJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott said, with respect to the CG transmutation: > In these units, the nuclear activity associated with the disintegration of > 0.1g of Th in 1 hour's time is like a 2,000,000 Curie source!!!!! Jeez, no > wonder it came out to 750 kilowatts. And found this puzzling unless very complex reaction paths are considered. Harold Aspden has found just such paths, which account for the published Ti/Cu ratio and modest mass-conversion heat release. The results are available at his website, linked from Logajan's, and were quoted by Bass here a few weeks back. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 05:58:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA30968; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:52:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:52:58 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:49:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710231249.HAA09322 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Tree again (fwd) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"j11o33.0.jZ7.eYqJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > A little story for you signal processing types, one of many. >If you like these I will put down more. Please keep 'em coming. They're fascinating. snip > I built an electrometer and used a trick to center the signal but >without the use of a large value resistor to ground as would be used >in many electrometers. Two such front ends were built, identical in >design and symmetrical in lay out but mirror images of each other. >The outputs were fed to a differencing amplifier and the whole made an >electrometer instrumentation amplifier. snip John, playing with electrometers is great fun. Would you consider posting a schematic of your differential electrometer above? > As a side note, well designed and filtered systems like this, if >conveyed to an audio amplifier, will yield a wonder of low frequency >electric field signals. A sort of radio naturally occurring in the >audio band. A bee flying by sources tiny electrostatic fields from >its wings and car tires 150 feet away or so make a sizzling sound from >the electrostatic effects of the tires on the road. There is no end >to these wonders and some members of the Long Wave Club of America are >habituated to building recievers dedicated to picking up these sounds >of natural radio. There are also a grand bunch of such signals in the >water and the earth. >But, again, these are other stories. > > What kind of "antennae" pickups do you use to get this directionality? How are they coupled to the front ends? Thanks, RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 08:39:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06689; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:23:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:23:59 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:18:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Bees and Tree again In-Reply-To: <199710231249.HAA09322 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ec_of.0.Qe1.EmsJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I have always been in love with signals. First it was small signals, then it was 'hard to get' signals ... now it is just signals. Design is part of electrometers. Construction and methods another. If you don't understand part of this, get a ham radio or TV repair or other good real world electronics person to help you. On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > You wrote: > > > > A little story for you signal processing types, one of many. > >If you like these I will put down more. > > Please keep 'em coming. They're fascinating. > > snip > > > I built an electrometer and used a trick to center the signal but > >without the use of a large value resistor to ground as would be used > >in many electrometers. Two such front ends were built, identical in > >design and symmetrical in lay out but mirror images of each other. > >The outputs were fed to a differencing amplifier and the whole made an > >electrometer instrumentation amplifier. > > snip > > John, playing with electrometers is great fun. Would you consider > posting a schematic of your differential electrometer above? > Some of the tricks I use are my stock in trade but acceptable first cut use can be had as follows: These are operational amplifier designs. There are discrete designs I use as well. 1] A given section uses unity gain FET amp. Two such sections form the impedance conversion front end of a classical 3 op amp instrumentation amp. 2] The inputs are protected with back to back diodes lifted by 10 K ohms... 1.5 k in series with real world. 3] Use battery. Regulate. Form virtual ground for symmetrical pos and neg. 4] Front end can have RF chokes and all gain feedback resistors can be paralled with 0.001 uF for hask removal. This is NOT a gradiometer. > > > As a side note, well designed and filtered systems like this, if > >conveyed to an audio amplifier, will yield a wonder of low frequency > >electric field signals. A sort of radio naturally occurring in the > >audio band. A bee flying by sources tiny electrostatic fields from > >its wings and car tires 150 feet away or so make a sizzling sound from > >the electrostatic effects of the tires on the road. There is no end > >to these wonders and some members of the Long Wave Club of America are > >habituated to building recievers dedicated to picking up these sounds > >of natural radio. There are also a grand bunch of such signals in the > >water and the earth. > >But, again, these are other stories. > > > > > > What kind of "antennae" pickups do you use to get this directionality? > How are they coupled to the front ends? > Directionality not required but can be had by usual differencing methods. > Thanks, > > RWW > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:15:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18879; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023121046_-626307408 mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Gas-Phase BLP Cells Resent-Message-ID: <"2FIif3.0.rc4.hStJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 9:45 AM EDT, Scott Little asked about the filaments, H2 gas pressure, and catalysts in BlackLight Power's gas-phase energy cells. KNO3 was mentioned in the report on the website, in a way that made it look like the catalyst, but I don't know if it's still there. I last viewed the website a couple of months ago on a computer at the local public library, since my faithful but ancient Mac can't handle the web or Adobe's Acrobat reader. As to filaments, tungsten sounds cheaper than platinum, which might be an important consideration from the point of view of commercializing the cells. I don't know about the gas pressure. The important point seems to be to produce conditions in which single atoms of H can interact with K ions. Replicating one of the BLP gas-phase cells looks to me like a project for a chemical engineer rather than an electrochemist, since the gas-phase cells aren't electrolytic. Fred Sparber commented (in a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 11:08 AM EDT): Whoa there, hold the phone. When you start mixing hydrogen with an oxidizer like KNO3.(the ingredient in black powder) you are not playing the ou game. 5 H2 + 2KNO3 ------> N2 + 2 KOH + 4 H2O and a bunch of energy! In a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 1:06 PM EDT, Fred calculated that energy as 1,222,000 joules given off as heat. Interesting point, Fred. Thanks for posting it. I hadn't thought about that reaction, thus showing that I've forgotten most of what chemistry I may once have learned. But as you and Scott noted in your continuing discussion, the heat from that reaction isn't nearly enough to account for the reported results. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:16:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19670; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:12:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:12:44 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023121033_-292639824 emout11.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Swartz's IECEC'97 Paper? Resent-Message-ID: <"UdFHL2.0.Bp4.wTtJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, In the bibliography of your papers in your post on Vortex-L dated Tue, Oct 21, 1997 9:02 AM EDT, you listed "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators Using Nickel Cathodes," lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009. Will there be a summary of this paper in a forthcoming issue of COLD FUSION TIMES? (I didn't see anything about it in the last issue, Vol. 5, No. 3, Fall 1997. And by the way, I thought that it was another good issue, full of interesting material that I haven't digested yet, especially about the work of Arata & Zhang.) Did you actually attend the IECEC 1997 meeting to present your paper in person? Did Szpak attend to present his paper? Will there be a report on the cold fusion session at IECEC 1997 in a forthcoming issue of COLD FUSION TIMES? (So far, I've seen almost nothing about the actual session anywhere, just material from before the conference.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:18:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19813; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:13:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: <344F834F.C655165A eunet.no> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:07:31 +0100 From: Jorn Erik Ommang Reply-To: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no Organization: Institute for Energy Technology Assessment (IETA) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: "Overunity" & Greetings from Norway X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f9kKw2.0.Lr4.MUtJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex-L: First I would like to thank William J. Beaty as well as all contributors to Vortex-L for the list's active inspiration and support to us all working for a more efficient and cleaner energy future as well as nurturing the lifelong interest in Nature's "hidden" secrets. “There is no favorable wind for those who do not know where they are going” - Willem van Oranje I am glad to inform Vortex-L readers that we have a new "overunity" device in Norway. I am working closely with the inventor and we can not, at this time, fully describe the invention due to the ongoing patent process. We plan that the initial patent process (PCT for more than 80 countries) will be finalized bbefore March 1998. The inventor term the device "The Low Temperature Accelerator" and that the energy source are "gravitational fields". He is a very skilled man in his field and have achieved exceptional results (between 130 and 200 % efficiency drawing on ZPE). He has not been aware of any other work in the "overunity" field until we started to work together. He has struggled for many years against the patent authorities as well as against physicists and the Norwegian Governments different research facilities. This working device utilizes a technology I have not seen or heard of before. From the little I can say at this time is that the device use electricity from the grid and produce more heat energy,taken out in the form of heated water flowing through the device, than the supplied electric energy. This is not "cold fusion" or "low energy nuclear reactions", it is not "sonoluminescence" - it is directly related to the conversion of ZPE into heat. The invention has been tested by one of Norway's Universities tresulting in a statement that the device generated 130 % more heat in kW out than electricity in kW in, during a set time period. The expert performing the measurment had no idea as to where the extra energy came from. The inventor states that he has achieved more than 18 kW of heat out from 9,5 kW of electricity in during a test periode. The device has been longtime tested as a heating unit in relation to a fish farm, heating the water from 10,5 deg. C. to 15 deg. C. continuously with an, from the inventor, stated efficiency of near 200 %. The inventor is now an old man and he has stated that he would like to see that I took over the further development of the device. There are also a financing company behind as well as the support from the inventors family. I have been engaged by the Inventor, the financing company as well as by the patent office to assist in ensuring that the patenting process goes through and to form an explanation as to which energy source is providing the extra energy as well as how it works. I have developed 2 reports for the patent office and for the PCT authorities in Munich as well as provided a number of comments to changes in the patent text - we are awaiting responce from the PCT Office. In addition to this invention I have, based on over 18 years of private R&D, developed a basic concept for the electronic detector part of an electronic ZPE converter. Even though this is at present, not a working device it is a developed concept for the most important part of any full-electronic ZPE Converter - the Detector. From this baseline a working electronic ZPE Converter can be developed. We have also some of Europe's leading energy and industrial companies as custumers and they are looking for "New Energy Technology" that are proven working and that are drawing on any of the new energy forms ZPE, LENR or NHE. If you have any working devices either developed to a prototype level (like CETI, BLP ?) or can show real results, I can put you in contact with very interesting companies looking for this new technology either for sale/ licensing or for investment in further development - however the technology MUST be proven as real and working. The more working devices we as researchers, inventors and engineers can show to prove the reality of the new energy concepts - the easier it is for any newcomers to be taken serious by the patent system, governments and the investors. The different governments tendency to confiscate and classify new energy technology seams to have changed, example: the Mead patent on ZPE Conversion, US Pat. 5,590,031 of dec. 31, 1996 Some words about me and the small private R&D and consultant company / institute IETA: I started my research & studies into the possibilities of direct conversion of the "background energy" of the Universe in 1978. I have always known, through intuition, that it is possible to directly draw electric power from the energy vibrations in "empty" space. My studies in 1978 reviled that also a number of other people have thought of the same idea including Tesla, Moray, etc. I have always been certain that the development of an electronic device that directly could convert what we now know as Zero-Point Energy into usable electric power without any moving parts and without needing to go via any heat process is the ultimate "New Renewable Energy Technology". Since 1978 many years of own privately founded Research & Development into a solid state Zero-Point Energy Converter have resulted in a basic concept of how to construct the most vital part of any electronic Zero-Point Energy Converter which is the ZPE Detector. As with the Moray and Tesla type technology - the detector part is the vital - the rest is "off the shelf" electronics. During my time as a ZPE researcher I have also held a position as Director for Research in a private UK company having the responsibility for the electronic ZPE Converter R&D - the backer of this project unfortunately ran out of money due losses in other areas, and the project terminated before any major results were achieved. I am now, through IETA, targeting financing partners for the further development of my ZPE Conversion Technology. Please inform me if any of you know of companies/investors willing to, in a secure manner, finance the development of advanced ZPE Conversion Technology. (As mentioned we have contact with some interested companies looking for finalized prototypes - it is not so easy to find investors for development projects). As a means of funding my own R&D into ZPE, I have been working as consultant engineer in a number of oil companies, including Shell, Statoil and Hydro. I have also worked as "Technical Auditor" during the Troll Gas Development Project related to the construction of the Troll Offshore Platform, Processing Plant and pipelines. (Europe's largest gas project) In 1988 I wrote Norway's first article on Zero-Point Energy. Since then I have written over 12 articles on the new energy technologies in Norwegian and Danish press. A number of lectures have been held, including beeing the main speeker at "New Energy 95" in Rotterdam. IETA was established in 1994 as a institute/consultant company that are bridging the new energy technology world of "Zero-Point Energy", "Cold Fusion", Low Energy Nuclear Reactions" & "New Hydrogen Technology", with the traditional world (oil, gas and traditional industry) Traditional industry has a clear need of new non-emission technology. We provide industry, finance sector, patent offices, investors and governments with services directly related to the new energy technology field including "Technology Status Reports", "Studies", "Auditing for Strategy Improvement", "Lectures - Courses", "Assisting in selling licenses for energy technology" "Linking Companies with leading products to financing sources" as well as any R&D work. Our custumers are among others; Statoil Research Department (The Norwegian State Oil Company - one of Europe's largest), Statkraft (The largest electric power company in Norway), The Norwegian Oil & Energy Department, Electricity Power Companies, Publications, Patent offices, Investors, Leading brokers, Inventors, Communes, Insurance companies, etc. «The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence. It is to act with yesterday’s logic.» - Peter Drucker Clinton's resent statement that the US CO2 emission shall be on a 1990 level by 2012 is clearly showing a severe need for new powerful non-emission energy technology - to stabilize the CO2 emission in the atmosphere a reduction of 60 - 80 % UNDER 1990 level is required - the US target even though it represent 25 - 30 % reduction (taking growth into account) is a sad story for the worlds climate. The "working climate" in Norway for the new energy technology is not good. I have contact with nearly all leading Norwegian scientists in the area of vacuum fluctuations, quantum physics and ZPE - all are negative to even the slightest possibility that ZPE can be engineered for practical use. Norway, the former environmental leader in the world, is now one of the largest oil & gas producers - here is much money but no "brain" - Norwegian Government taxes in over 6,000 million NOK from CO2 tax - from this money only 0.3 % is used on R&D into new energy technology and energy economizing. From the income from the Norwegian export of oil & gas, Norway is using only 0.1 % on research into renewable energy - and nothing in the new energy technologies. The "oil & gas country" is heading for a disaster - slide in the oil & gas price - and full stop for all offshore exploration activities by the year 2010. "The resistance to any new idea is proportional to the square of its importance" (Bertrand Russell) Have a Good Day!!!! Jorn Erik ____________________________________________________________________ Jorn Erik Ommang, Eng. Energy Technology Specialist IETA INSTITUTE FOR ENERGY TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT (Member of IATAFI, IAEE & PACE) Nordeidev. 39, N-5060 Søreidgrend (Bergen), Norway Phone: +47 - 55 124718, Fax: +47 - 55 226662 E-mail: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:18:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19871; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:13:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:13:20 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023121039_-158461136 emout13.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"wBS1I1.0.Rr4.MUtJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rich Murray has cited and quoted the article by Shkedi, et al., in Fusion Technology, Vol. 28, No. 4 (November 1995), pp. 1720-1730, to the effect that the excess heat from Mills' electrolytic energy cells was an artifact caused by recombination in the cells. Shkedi, et al., cited only the earliest of Mills' articles on excess heat, namely, Mills & Kneizys 1991, which reported only low-power experiments, for the analysis of which recombination was indeed an issue. Shkedi, et al., failed to cite Mills, Good & Shaubach, Fusion Technology, Vol. 25 (January 1994), pp. 103-119. Shekedi and his team failed to deal with the much more robust results reported by Mills, Good & Shaubach in their 1994 article, most of which were beyond even 100% recombination. The strongest recombination claimed by Shkedi, et al., was only about 34% (see their Table IV). The article by Shkedi, et al., was received by Fusion Technology on May 31, 1994, so the January 1994 article by Mills, Good & Shaubach should have been available to Shkedi and his team. According to Good's comments in Fusion Technology, Vol. 30 (September 1996), p. 132, Shkedi, et al., failed to contact Good or his colleagues, even though Shkedi and his team contacted others. The 1995 Shkedi article was rendered even more obsolete by an ironical coincidence: it was published in the very same issue as an article by Mills & Good on "Fractional Quantum Energy Levels of Hydrogen," pp. 1697-1719, which contained sections (on pages 1698-1701) reporting exceptionally robust results from a long-running experiment, using a wire-mesh cathode, that produced excess heat far beyond even 100% recombination. To sum up, the 1995 Shkedi article was already obsolete by the time of publication, and it's now hopelessly out-of-date, though it retains historical interest. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:22:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18917; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:11:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:11:33 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023121049_-1057799376 mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Schnurer's Semi-Ceramic HTM Resent-Message-ID: <"X6DC.0.yc4.iStJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: That's a wonderful story, John. I wondered what happened to Starlite. If Ward never patented it, then you might have a free run with your version of it. Good luck in selling it to a company. Judging by Ward's experience, it could take a long time. I hope that you'll let us readers of Vortex know how things go with your invention. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:33:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25320; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:28:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:28:27 -0700 Message-ID: <344FA694.FE0 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:33:40 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas-Phase BLP Cells References: <971023121046_-626307408 mrin41.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9Oc0i.0.YB6.fitJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: > > In a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 9:45 AM EDT, Scott Little asked about the > filaments, H2 gas pressure, and catalysts in BlackLight Power's gas-phase > energy cells. > > KNO3 was mentioned in the report on the website, in a way that made it look > like the catalyst, but I don't know if it's still there. and Scott Little's website says: > Dr. Randall Mills reports multiple observations of excess heat in the > Ni-H2O-K2CO3 system on the Blacklight Power web > page at http://www.blacklightpower.com. . . . Which potassium compound is right for the Mills catalyst? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:43:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29923; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:39:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:39:12 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Gas-Phase BLP Cells Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:37:28 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdfd1$f3c71240$a993410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"G7K8d1.0.SJ7.lstJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Tstolper aol.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 10:19 AM Subject: Gas-Phase BLP Cells >In a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 9:45 AM EDT, Scott Little asked about the >filaments, H2 gas pressure, and catalysts in BlackLight Power's gas-phase >energy cells. > >KNO3 was mentioned in the report on the website, in a way that made it look >like the catalyst, but I don't know if it's still there. I last viewed the >website a couple of months ago on a computer at the local public library, >since my faithful but ancient Mac can't handle the web or Adobe's Acrobat >reader. > >As to filaments, tungsten sounds cheaper than platinum, which might be an >important consideration from the point of view of commercializing the cells. Whoa Again Tom, If the H2O Generated hits hot Tungsten you will get; xH2O + W = WOx + x H2 plus more energy. :-) The "Water Cycle" in incandescent light bulbs does this, depositing tungsten on the envelope causing the blackened spot. > >I don't know about the gas pressure. The important point seems to be to >produce conditions in which single atoms of H can interact with K ions. > >Replicating one of the BLP gas-phase cells looks to me like a project for a >chemical engineer rather than an electrochemist, since the gas-phase cells >aren't electrolytic. > >Fred Sparber commented (in a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 11:08 AM EDT): > > >Whoa there, hold the phone. When you start mixing hydrogen with an > >oxidizer like KNO3.(the ingredient in black powder) you are not > >playing the ou game. > > > >5 H2 + 2KNO3 ------> N2 + 2 KOH + 4 H2O and a bunch of energy! > >In a post dated Wed, Oct 22, 1997 1:06 PM EDT, Fred calculated that energy as >1,222,000 joules given off as heat. > >Interesting point, Fred. Thanks for posting it. I hadn't thought about that >reaction, thus showing that I've forgotten most of what chemistry I may once >have learned. But as you and Scott noted in your continuing discussion, the >heat from that reaction isn't nearly enough to account for the reported >results. > >Tom Stolper > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 09:48:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28619; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:37:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:37:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:18:15 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971023231954.2caf8444 po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis Resent-Message-ID: <"9zS22.0.2_6.rqtJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Visited the GreenGas factory today. Observed demonstration of their 1500 unit (only type they make at this time). _Very Impressive_ cutting demo. Nice, clean cut. Pretty flame. What they don't tell you is that they augment the flame with O2. When I saw this I was a bit disconcerted. Add oxy to a stoiochiometric H2/O2 feed ?? For what purpose ? It certainly has a dramatic impact on the flame intensity. It almost appears as if what's coming out would be H2. But that's not right. It IS a mix of H2/O2 straight from the (non-)electrolysis chamber. So how does O2 participate in the flame ? It isn't burning the workpiece. What they do tell you could be pulled out of Michael Hannon's posts on s.e.h. "It's not electrolysis ! We are *not* separating the Hydrogen and Oxygen !!" "It's simply a different 'form' of water, and it burns" Hmmmm.... "It needs no maintenance, but once yearly you change the ?electrolyte ? ! " I think perhaps they must be referring to some type of catalyst. But they probably wouldn't want to reveal this aspect of the machine. Another item you only find under the hood is the extent of their cooling system. He must be augmenting gas production by a heater, but that's a guess. It is a very safely constructed unit. The testing (official) done here in Singapore is thorough and of a bent to sort out frauds. For welding purposes, it is apparently a good deal. One other notable point is that they have a steady flow of customers. No negative feedback to the newspapers as yet. Apparently, the units they sell stay sold. For $6500 each., it's not a toy, but my interest in welding Aluminum on an offshore project entices.... The hype and red herrings don't detract from it's usefulness. Cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 10:06:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02939; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:00:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:00:20 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023125943_714644190 mrin42.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: I stick to my story. Resent-Message-ID: <"2xHgy2.0.kj.YAuJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Any divice that claims to produce electrical power from ZPE. If it's not cryogenic its not working. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 10:21:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06643; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:13:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:13:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023115624.006d4db4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:56:24 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: good stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"q_sJa.0.ed1.dMuJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: SEVEN YEARS OF PHYSICS---the entire run of Physics News Updates---is now available in searchable form on the AIP Website at this address: www.aip.org/physnews/update. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:09:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28629; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <344F834F.C655165A eunet.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:34:40 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: "Overunity" & Greetings from Norway Resent-Message-ID: <"dEDsq2.0.F_6.4quJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jorn wrote: > This working device utilizes a technology I have > not seen or heard of before. Welcome to Vortex, Jorn. I'm sure we'd all be interested in any more details about this device as soon as it can be released. Are you aware of the Griggs machine? It's also used to heat water with OU efficiency, and it runs at kilowatt levels. The principle involved in the Griggs pump is a water vortex that derives energy from an unknown source. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:13:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14865; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:06:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:06:42 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971022184248.00af3880 spectre.mitre.org> References: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:00:40 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Resent-Message-ID: <"EpLdb1.0.4e3.m8vJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert - Is this IR seeing done strictly through your eyes? I know that sounds like a dumb question, but there are these notions from eastern philosophy about a third optic receptor of some sort. Does it still work with foil taped between your eyes or over your forehead? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:20:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01266; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FA1A2.6B625BEB eunet.no> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:17:21 +0100 From: Jorn Erik Ommang Reply-To: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no Organization: Institute for Energy Technology Assessment (IETA) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: "Overunity" & Greetings from Norway X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N-SuJ3.0.fJ.4GvJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, Thank you for your response. Yes, I am familiar with Griggs fluid heating system utilizing effects related to sonoluminesence. The Norwegian invention is not using the same method. Best regards, Jorn Erik Rick Monteverde wrote: > Are you aware of the Griggs machine? It's also used to heat water with > OU > efficiency, and it runs at kilowatt levels. The principle involved in > the > Griggs pump is a water vortex that derives energy from an unknown > source. ____________________________________________________________________ Jorn Erik Ommang, Eng. Energy Technology Specialist IETA INSTITUTE FOR ENERGY TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT (Member of IATAFI & PACE, UN- NGO organisations) Nordeidev. 39, N-5060 Søreidgrend (Bergen), Norway Phone: +47 - 55 124718, Fax: +47 - 55 226662 E-mail: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no E-mail: ieta usa.net http://energie.keng.de/~pace/ietamain.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:20:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14805; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:06:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:06:33 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971023231954.2caf8444 po.pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:43:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis Resent-Message-ID: <"Kh7mr1.0.Bd3.d8vJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MPower - > For $6500 each., it's not a toy, but my > interest in welding Aluminum on an offshore > project entices... Would this be better than or equal to TIG welding for aluminum? Could you weld very thick stock with it - stay ahead of heat flowing away from the work on pieces of any thickness (like TIG)? And why wouldn't it oxidize - especially with the additional O2 added to the stream? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:20:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16720; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:11:44 -0700 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023134949_1667772441 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RMOG V1.0 - First test results Resent-Message-ID: <"7ocnk.0.954.VDvJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have built my RMOG V1 as indicated in Greg drawings, BUT I am not able to obtain the same results as Greg : The RMOG STOPS quickly.... YET, THE TEST HAS FAILED :-( I have built the RMOG at the same size with 10x20 mm ferrite and 10x20 magnets, with 6x10 mm ferrite rod..... The ILS timing seems adjusted correctly as shown in my scope pictures...... You will find the pictures at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/rmog1.htm PS : GREG, Do you read my Emails, I have never received any answer from you since a few days.... Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin (10/23/97 , 17:47GMT) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:27:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02705; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023142618.00ab4b30 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:26:18 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: underwater sparking Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199710230135.UAA23837 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6CO-12.0.3g.5NvJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice write-up but one detail wasn't covered. On the web-page you said: >A gas vent connection conveys the electrolysis gases out of the cell. 1. Do you have a catalyst for doing recombination? 2. If so, is the temperature of the gas/water vapor emitted being measured? 3. If not, is the gas volume measured, and how do you determine the ration of gasses to water vapor? Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 11:35:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03181; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:19:25 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Re: Schnurer's Semi-Ceramic HTM In-Reply-To: <971023121049_-1057799376 mrin44.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"du3jv2.0.an.NPvJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ward turned down offers. You can post the tree stories. I hope someone out there will know contact. J On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 Tstolper aol.com wrote: > That's a wonderful story, John. > > I wondered what happened to Starlite. If Ward never patented it, then you > might have a free run with your version of it. Good luck in selling it to a > company. Judging by Ward's experience, it could take a long time. I hope > that you'll let us readers of Vortex know how things go with your invention. > > Tom Stolper > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 12:00:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28355; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:54:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:54:50 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023145905.00aba510 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:59:05 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <344EADD2.B9DA80D3 verisoft.com.tr> References: <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> <3.0.1.32.19971022184248.00af3880 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eS90Q1.0.zw6.urvJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:52 AM 10/23/97 +0400, Hamdi Ucar wrote: > Did you tried to wear glass which only pass NIR as used on IR cameras? > Theoretically, it will allow *you* to see in NIR, even on normal light > conditions. 1) How do you think we finally clued in on this? I used a modified welder's mask to eliminate reflections from the inside of the glass. 2) We also discovered a known, but not well known effect of some of the filters, optical doubling. The images initally looked purple, not red, because the filters have a small transmission hump at twice the frequency. Depending on which filter you use, this is in the violet or near ultraviolet. So, okay, put a UV blocking filter on the light source. The images still seem purple, but redder. It turns out that frequency doubling can occur in the filters. ;-) So put a UV filter inside the IR filter. There are plastics that work well for this. Now you can test whether someone can see by pure IR..., but it still looks slightly purple. It seems that the eye does some optical doubling too, but this is believed to be perceptual. Also, I had a weird experience at a semi-conductor show a few years later. A company was demonstrating IR emitting diodes, and had a scrolling sign, with an IR viewer for passersby to read it. The guy in the booth kept trying to get me to look through, and I finally did, but I had been asking him questions about stuff I read on the sign. It seems that even though I was looking at the sign and reading it, he couldn't concieve of someone reading something he couldn't see. Maybe he thought I was admiring the diode packaging. (For those of you who want to experiment. Most IR emitting diodes in modern TV and VCR controllers seem to be well below what I can see. Either they lowered the intensity drastically, or now use a lower frequency to bounce off walls better. But there are/were some old remote controls I could see easily.) But most CO2 lasers are below my range. Ah, I think I remember the nomenclature now, but I always get the Angstroms and nanometers mixed up. Human range is considered to be down to 810 A, 800 A or 790 A depending on who you ask. I can see down to about 950 A. We did some experiments when I was at MIT. Was it a 968 A? laser light I couldn't see, but there was one about 930 something that I could. Nice to have a lab with multiple lasers handy, but they didn't have tunable dye lasers then. The testing was considerably complicated by the fact that some of the lasers were optically pumped, and there were cases where they had to put in better filters to get the pumping light out of the beam. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 12:39:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05943; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:32:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:32:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023141430.006cb5a8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:14:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: underwater sparking In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971023142618.00ab4b30 spectre.mitre.org> References: <199710230135.UAA23837 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3TgtQ3.0.eS1.dPwJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 14:26 10/23/97 -0400, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > 1. Do you have a catalyst for doing recombination? not in this case. > 3. If not, is the gas volume measured, and how do you determine the >ration of gasses to water vapor? actually I didn't measure the gasses coming off. I'll do that next time. Since the current is only 50mA, the fuel value of the escaping gases will be 1.48*.050 or 75 milliwatts....negligible since I'm putting in 20 watts. That's one good thing about using such high voltages. I have measured the total gas evolution from a number of electrolysis cells in the past and have never seen it go above about 1.06 times the theoretical production of H2 & O2. I have always assumed the excess gas is water vapor and I have calculated the heat carried off by both the phase change and the mass flow of that stream...I forget the exact value but it was small compared to the total electrolysis power. Another thing I forgot to mention in the write-up: Input power was measured with a digital scope monitoring V and I and multiplying them in real-time. V was quite sinusoidal but I was not (not me, the current). The cell behaves like an open circuit until V exceeds about 200 volts, then it looks resistive. This makes for a sortof "truncated" current trace. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 14:39:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03788; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023160617.006bc1f8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:06:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mills' experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA03693 Resent-Message-ID: <"uBoiD2.0.0x.m_xJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As promised, here is a concise summary of the info I could find readily on Mill's 2 completely different excess heat experiments. The object of posting this is to collect additional info, tidbits, hints, rumors, etc. from Vortex members so a best-first-try protocol can be obtained. Please contribute if you can. 1. The electrolysis experiment (info mainly from Dr. Farrell via Vince C.) Ordinary DC electrolysis is conducted between Pt anode and Ni cathode. Some experiments have used pulsed DC current. cathode: Ni foil or Ni wire cathode prep: electropolish by running cell in reverse for 30 min. electrolyte: K2CO3 in light water….0.6M current density: 1 ma/cm^2 for foil…2 mA/cm^2 for wire (this is really low!) expected Pout/Pin ratio: up to 10:1…multiple reports above 3:1 2. The gas experiment H gas is admitted into a chamber with a heated filament and a nearby container of catalyst. H2 dissociates upon contact with the hot filament and supposedly reacts with the catalyst to form hydrinos. Excess heat appears when H gas is present in the chamber and disappears when the H gas is pumped out of the chamber. U of Penn style experiment: (info from www.blacklightpower.com/ureport) Gas: H2 Pressure: 10 psig initial. the chamber was sealed off after filling it to this pressure. During more-or-less steady excess heat production, the H gas pressure dropped steadily down to about 170 mmHg as if the H was being consumed. Catalyst: KNO3. In a later description the catalyst is described as an "ionic hydrogen spillover catalytic material: 40% KNO3 on graphitic carbon powder with 5% of a 1%-Pd-on-graphitic carbon" Filament: Pt Excess power: 0.6 watts Pout/Pin: 1.06 Hydrocatalysis Corp experiment: (info from "Detail on Technology - Part 3") Gas: H2 Pressure: 2 mmHg Catalyst: 3 g of KNO2 [sic] Cell temperature: 280C Filament: W Filament temp: ~2000 K Excess power: 50 watts Pout/Pin: ~2 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 14:39:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27796; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:22:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:22:24 -0700 Message-Id: <199710232122.RAA21380 relay1.smtp.psi.net> From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: PMOD update 23/10 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:20:36 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cucn91.0.Co6.F0yJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: I fully understand that that would happen, I mean brass is dia-magnetic. The steel bolt was interesting as it went from dia-magnetic for 600ns then ferro-magnetic for 400ns or the rest of the 1us pulse width. I don't know if diamagnetic is quite the correct term for this effect - the magnetic field is excluded at high frequencies by the electrical conductivity. This effect extends to dc for superconductors but for metals the .6 us we are observing is not unusual. Of course the magnetic response of the iron is also be a factor as you have suggested. Greg, please send me a sample of the ferrite rod you are using. I would be happy to cover your costs for this as I have been unable to find any locally. The shorter length of my samples may be the reason I am not seeing the FCRT waveforms you obtain. My current sampling technique with the scope grounded uses a matched divider to a 75 ohm coax and a 75 ohm input scope amplifier - about 600 mhz bandwidth and very clean traces with almost zero ringing. My own latest ZPE experiments have been in the 2 GHz freq. range and I have gained some understanding of parasitics and wiring signal delays etc. It's been nice getting back to the real time (non sampling) scope for a change! Please take my suggestion of decoupling the power supply seriously - it is the result of many years working with circuits like this one. In my experience no amount of parallel bypass caps on the board can be effective with some supplies. The reason for this is that the power supply output is controled by a high gain feedback loop with an effective output impedance measured in micro-ohms and a response time short enough to cause strange effects in these microsecond high current pulse experiments. Even a 1 ohm resistor in series with the supply will prevent high current high frequency transients from ringing back and forth along the power supply leads. Thanks for the quick response and suggestions. George Holz Varitronics Systems 1924 US Hwy 22 East Bound Brook, NJ 08805 USA From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:04:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05327; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:55:47 -0700 Message-ID: <344FC7A8.5AF0CE49 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:24:48 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: PMOD 23/10 References: <344E8FF3.E418E73 microtronics.com.au> <344EC6A7.F58549CB@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F_u44.0.rI1.UVyJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > On latest update, the effect is seen greatly amplified. Its appears that > on first 30nS (20nS/div) average energy flow is negative. > > -What is happening if you apply pulses shorter than 30nS? No back Emf will be produced in the drive coil. This allows a very quick pulse to excite domain avalanche and a secondary coil to produce a Emf from the avalanches. > -As the effect is related to length of the rod, how is the position dependence of coil on the rod? Seems to work best if the coil is centred. > -The sense coil may greatly affect the response even disconnected, inter winding capacitances is enough to generate currents on it and back EMF. Haven't noticed that happening. > - I obtained 70MHz and 100MHz resonance freq. on 20mm diameter coils having 15-20 turns and spaced windings.I expect 70-150MHz resonance freq from your coil(s).without core. Resonance mode is useful to cancel self-inductance of the coils by their inter winding capacitances. > So its may allow to transfer and retrieve magnetic/electric field energy faster and efficiently. I think the resonating timings of air coil could also affect the operation of the coil when the core is inserted. it is also possible the resonance mode may negatively affect the operation and should be avoided. Anyway, it will be worth to determine the resonance freq of your coil and play on on/off timings shorter than 15nS and work on tightly wounded 10/15T coils. Its the domain avalanche resonance of the rod that is the goal. > - Even the overall the system may not appear extract energy from the core, the core may cool down slightly while operating. Could you monitor this? Will purchase a digital meter with temp probe this weekend. > Regards, > > hamdi ucar HI Hamdi, Thanks for the input. Back to the lab (spare bedroom). -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:05:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05652; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:57:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:57:24 -0700 Message-ID: <344FC81E.FD1793D8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:26:46 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD update 22/10 References: <344DFE2C.22E8A1E8 microtronics.com.au> <19971022.141143.9990.0.Jahuti juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gtwgM2.0.6O1.3XyJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Austin wrote: > > > > >Its the dia-magnetic action of the steel bolt in the first 600ns > >that's the surpise. I suspect the poor reduction in the peak current > >is because the steel bolt's domains and bloch walls are not too good > >at moving fast. > > > >-- > >Best Regards, > > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson > > If the bloch walls and domains are slower to react in the steel, does that mean that a slower, easier to build circuit could be constructed to create the overunity effect? > > Richard Austin -- email: richarda icx.net -- radio: KG7SU HI Richard, Suspect the size of the response is just too small. But will keep it in mind. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:15:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13116; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971023220900.008e2d1c freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:09:00 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Filament Experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"_Hxor1.0.nC3.DiyJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There appears to be interest in running filament experiments to replicate the Mill's phenomenon. I don't like to report negative results since that would be taking time during which I could be trying other things. I have run a series of experiments with nickel and platinum filaments in the presence and absence of potassium salts but have not abtained any perceivable excess heat in my equipment. A number of reactor configurations were tried. The final configuration was one in which a filament was passed through a ceramic tube with aluminum oxide extrusions (Engelhard) sorrounding the filament. The extrusions were coated with nothing (blank run), Pd (reduced from PdCl2), K2SO4, K4P2O7, and Pd + K2SO4. The ceramic tube was placed in a copper tube fitted with inlet and outlet tubes for the passage of hydrogen generated by electrolysis (and therefore is saturated with water vapor). The copper tube was placed in a mineral oil bath in a Thermos bottle. The Thermos bottle was placed in a chamber constructed of three layers of Styrofoam (1-inch thickness per layer). That is 3 inches top, bottom and sides. The energies in and out were calculated by using flow calorimetry. The temperatures in and out were measured by thermistors and the data were gathered by a computer. Current to the filaments was supplied by a Kepco power supply. The current was was held constant for each experiment and each experiment lasted from several hours to about a day. The current was increased in the next run and the data was gathered again. This increase in current was continued until the filament reached the melting point at which point the circuit opened and terminated the series of experiments with that particular loading. The efficiency of the measured energy in/out was around .95 with a blank. None of the potassium containing runs exceeded this figure. Since a few of the runs exhibited melt down of the filament hours into the experiment, the question arose: Was this the result of a heat build up or was there another source of heat which started to occur at the limit of the filament and increased the temperature to the melting point? Anyway, this series of experiments is finished and I am now using an externally heated reactor (Vycor tubing) which I hope to get up to at least 900 deg C. This requires an altogether different technique in establishing whether or not excess energy is produced. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:16:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13022; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971023220858.008edd8c freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:08:58 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Eachus & Schnurer Resent-Message-ID: <"k3kX_3.0.IB3.whyJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I find the recent postings of Eachus and Schnurer fascinating. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:16:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13063; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FCADB.3C99342B microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:38:27 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD 23/10 References: <3.0.1.32.19971023150004.0069069c cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AhuMn3.0.uB3.2iyJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: > > At 09:14 23/10/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > > >Several circuit mods and other info has been added. > >Go to the home page and follow the "Go to 23/10/97" update link. > > I just took a peep and low-and-behold clear O/U operation > documented on the CRO trace!! (making various assumptions). > > Took a look through the comments and at least George noticed :- > >IMO the stranger waveform is the one with the ferrite inserted! > >If we consider the 300ns after the pulse is applied on the > >current waveform we have significant over unity performance! > >The coil has put much more charge ( integrate the current > >waveform around the zero current start value ) back into the > >capacitor/supply than it has accepted and > >has been opeating from a constant voltage excitation. > > So why don't you just shorten the pulse to 300ns and put a 7volt > zener across your 6volt supply (to stop it going through the roof) > and see if runs with 7volts and a hot zener!!! Have got the supply current to drop to less than 1ma. The Cmos and fet gate drive take approx 1.5ma. Looks like I am close. >From my earlier notes, much more energy is available from causing resonance via domain avalanches in the rod. My goal at present is to reduce input energy to as small a value as possible. Get that right and then work on the output. > For various (maybe good) reasons you want cut off the "drive" > coil early and collect the energy on a separate "generation" coil > with more windings etc - but there is no theoretical reason why > these should not be the same coil. Maybe practical concerns > (such as diode drops etc) suggest this but evidence at this > point in time have proved that it is not necessary. You wrote :- I have never been a fan of pumping energy back from a coil to its power source. > >The goal is to use a very short energy pulse to cause domain > >alignment and domain avalanche through the ferrite. I don't > >want any current to be pumped back to the supply through the > >primary coil. > > Why ever not ? - you are going to have to get it there somehow to > close the energetic loop. So why use a separate coil, rectifier, > DC-DC converter if necessary, etc, to do the job that a simple > timing adjustment would do. You can draw any excess power from > the one supply - in fact you will have to draw it off if it is > there, to prevent the voltage from getting too high and breaking > something. I believe you will have very little control over the pumped back energy. > >The primary H field coil and fet are being designed to do a very > >special job. Stimulate domain alignment and get out just as the > >domain avalanche starts. Energy recovery is not their role. Each of > >the two coils (H and Back Emf) and support circuits are required to do > >a very different and specific job. It is by designing this way that a > >PMOD works. > > But it doesn't need to be designed that way. It could be done > much more simply as I have suggested (if your CRT traces are > accurate). I agree, but thats not the way I am going. I FEEL my current approach will result in a better produce, wish more control options. > I wouldn't be getting excited about the strange behavoir with steel. > Steel is a reasonable conductor and fast changes in applied field > will generate significant Eddy currents in the short term. Thus it > will exhibit very strong diamagnetism similar to a superconductor > for these short times. I think any good conductor would do the > same - wheras ferrite doesn't. After longer times or with slower > applied fields the Eddy currents have time to decay away and things > look a bit more normal. That is my guess at any rate. > > Keep up the good work - this is really exciting !!! HI John, Thanks for another view point. Will keep it in mind. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:35:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16657; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710232231.SAA18620 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Eulogy for Chris Tinsley Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 18:37:36 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id PAA16628 Resent-Message-ID: <"MLrzD1.0.844.90zJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eulogy for Christopher P. Tinsley Delivered by Eugene Mallove at the funeral ceremony at St. Leonard¹s Church, Nottingham, UK ‹ October 9, 1997 Though our dear, dearest brother, Christopher Tinsley, has passed beyond this earthly pale, and this grievously saddens us, he will remain an undying presence for those who carry on. Chris Tinsley gave so much to those who came to regard him as his sou l brother‹myself and Jed Rothwell‹ all these years since our joining together in 1991 in a Great Cause for Truth.... Truth about and justice for an outrageously maligned millennial discovery in science with deep roots in England and America. As we did not in 1991, today we have full faith that this discovery of a source of infinite energy‹clean, safe, and eternal‹will before too many more moons give new life and hope to all the peoples of the world. Thanks to the absolutely indispensable wo rk of Chris Tinsley, there are now many beacons of light penetrating the black night of ignorance and evil deceit. Today, many thousands of human beings in three dozen countries have heard the voice of Chris Tinsley and have felt hisdeep humanity and extr aordinary, magical wisdom. I have full faith that tomorrow, with the dawning of the New Day, millions of grateful souls will come to know him as one of the most genuine and important spirits of our time. True enough, today the gentle goodness of Chris Tinsley‹ineffable goodness‹is celebrated only by this handful of gathered and the multitudes of those linked through cyberspace who hung on his every word, and from whom tributes continue to come. But eac h of us will carry some part of Chris Tinsley with us until our own ends of time. We will all revere memories of Chris: His brilliant wit, his ability to cut to the chase, his role as creator, inventor, and peacemaker, his astonishing ability to do so much with such scant resources in all things electrical and mechanical. I will end with a beautiful statement in Chris¹s own words. I can hear him speaking them though they were committed to paper long ago: ³The idea of death troubles me not at all. Death is highly overrated, it is in fact no big deal. The problems are solely ones for those who have to handle the emotional and other problems which the person leaves behind. And I am not pretending that th ese problems are trivial ones. I commend each of you to the care of the others. Each of you carries something of me into the future. So love one another, you will not regret doing that.² Dear Chris, wherever you may be flying, I am devastated that you are gone. I shall, we shall miss you greatly. I will miss sharing with you the wonders of the dawning New Age. But we will carry on as you would have wanted us to. God bless your great so ul! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:39:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14592; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:32:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:32:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023171622.007025f8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:16:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Filament Experiments In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971023220900.008e2d1c freeway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K7_dD.0.sZ3.U1zJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 18:09 10/23/97 -0400, Ed described his experiments with filaments, H and K... Ed, looks like good work from here. Some of your parameters are quite different from the Mills' experiments. I'll try to compare them now...let me know where I go wrong, OK? Mills (HC Corp) Strojny Gas: H2 H2 Pressure: 2 mmHg 1 atm? Catalyst: KNO3 various K & Pd compounds Cell temperature: 280C cooler? Filament: W Ni & Pt Filament temp: ~2000 K ? Excess power: 50 watts 0 Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 15:43:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17865; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FD176.CD10F83D microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:06:38 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD is OU at 300 ns ! References: <19971023171456.11333b1d.in pop3.vossnet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FSKKn3.0.sM4.Y6zJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > Hi Greg if you look at your: > > http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/air-coil-in.gif > > picture with the ferrite rod inside there, you already would > get overunity, when you just switch the coil on for only around 300 ns ! > > As the current goes immeditately negative you could charge your battery with it > this way ! > Yes, this already someone else mentioned on the list and I must agree ! That fast current pulse will just get swallowed by the same very effective decoupling system that prevents the coil current pulses from being seen be the power supply. > What do you think ? Like I said before. One circuit to drive the rod's domain avalanche resonance and one to recover the energy. > Have you been done already a test of the secondary coil, how much power you > can get out of it with this new circuit ? Haven't really tried yet. One thing at a time. I believe in doing the ground work first. I still have much more work to do on the input, I need a better fet gate drive to get drive pulses into the 20ns range. And there is a lot of work to do on the optimum drive coil. I KNOW the PMOD works. This time I am doing a lot of supportive ground work to better understand the effect. That the FCRT bumps didn't appear when I used a 28mm section of rod, blew me away. Still much to learn. Back to the lab. > -- > Hartmann Multimedia Service > Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann > Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany > http://www.harti.com Webmaster of: > www.detours.de www.overunity.de www.berlin-city.com > email: harti harti.com -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:06:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22321; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:00:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:00:41 -0700 Message-Id: <344FD0B7.20C986B verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:33:27 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD is OU at 300 ns ! References: <19971023171456.11333b1d.in pop3.vossnet.de> <344FD176.CD10F83D@microtronics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fe9rq3.0.WS5.MSzJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: > > Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > [snip] > > Haven't really tried yet. One thing at a time. I believe in doing > the ground work first. I still have much more work to do on the > input, I need a better fet gate drive to get drive pulses into the > 20ns range. And there is a lot of work to do on the optimum drive > coil. > > I KNOW the PMOD works. This time I am doing a lot of supportive > ground work to better understand the effect. That the FCRT bumps > didn't appear when I used a 28mm section of rod, blew me away. Still > much to learn. > Yes! This should be the correct method for a research. Otherwise one can lost easily in the sea of variations of experiments, specially on the obscure OU field. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:08:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21517; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:55:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:55:47 -0700 Message-ID: <344FE396.A9103C21 eunet.no> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:59:51 +0100 From: Jorn Erik Ommang Reply-To: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no Organization: Institute for Energy Technology Assessment (IETA) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Eulogy for Chris Tinsley X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199710232231.SAA18620 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KWvga1.0.6G5.nNzJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Eugene, Thank you for posting this. Jorn Erik From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:24:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23149; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FDA96.50FE23BF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG Builders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xGVZq3.0.Wf5.vgzJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI Jean-Louis, Ken and others, Several points you might find helpfull, 1) Use weak magnets. 2) Use about 4-6mm spacing on the flux gate to magnet side and as close as possible on the flux gate to coil side. 3) Magnet spindown with the coils open should be small. 4) Connect a variable power supply in series with the coils and reed relay. Polarity to generate a same pole face in the gap as the magnet. Check for how much voltage you need to get the "Motor" to run. Then alter spacings in the gap to get lower drive voltages. RPM is NOT the goal, its low drive voltage. The lower the drive voltages, the higher the efficiency. 5) Connect the coils in parallel. First CHECK with a scope that the voltages are in phase. 6) The coils should only be energized / shorted for 7.2 deg or 5mm of flux gate travel. Its very important that the coil open point be correct. 7) Remember that the perspex disc will cause high thrust loads on the bearing as the flux gates move across the magnets. This could be a point of high energy losses and must be working well. 8) Bypass the reed relay and with the coils powered from the supply, you should feel the flux gates being repelled away from the centre of the magnets just like the suggested 2 magnet and ferrite experiment I posted on the RMOG site. It does work. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:31:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27094; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:23:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:23:34 -0700 Message-ID: <344FDC50.5AC49435 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:52:56 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD 23/10 References: <199710232259.UAA31464 bigbox.plug-in.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"91iQt1.0.Bd6.rnzJq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Marcelo Puhl wrote: > > > > > The results indicate that the length of the coil is important to make the > > FCRT effect happen. With short lengths of rod, the FCRT effect will NOT > > happen! > > > > Test with 28,70,98 & 168mm rods are detailed. > > > > Seems the longer the better. > > > > Aren't you seeing stationary magnetic waves at the core ? Magnetic waes, Yes. Stationary. No. > What will you see moving a pick-up coil along the lenght of the core ? Thats what I plan to do today. > Marcelo HI Marcelo, Thanks for the feedback. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:44:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA30927; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:40:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:40:54 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971023125943_714644190 mrin42.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:49:01 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: I stick to my story. Resent-Message-ID: <"u8so53.0.8Z7.52-Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Any divice that claims to produce electrical > power from ZPE. If it's not cryogenic its not > working. Because it involves those conditions that result in superconductivity? What if those things can happen at room temperature under certain conditions? Some faint signs of superconductivity have been found at normal temperatures, and a room temperature *bulk* superconductor is not thought to be impossible. And what about the Correa PAGD devices? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:44:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA30999; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:09 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: "Overunity" & Greetings from Norway Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:40:18 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdfe3$1c854ec0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"bNYFQ.0.Aa7.J2-Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 12:08 PM Subject: Re: "Overunity" & Greetings from Norway Rick Wrote: >Jorn wrote: > > > This working device utilizes a technology I have > > not seen or heard of before. > >Welcome to Vortex, Jorn. I'm sure we'd all be interested in any more >details about this device as soon as it can be released. > >Are you aware of the Griggs machine? It's also used to heat water with OU >efficiency, and it runs at kilowatt levels. The principle involved in the >Griggs pump is a water vortex that derives energy from an unknown source. It's not an "unknown source", Rick. You just agitate the water strongly enough to create "Hydrinos" which concurrently give off EUV and some "Sonoluminescence," thus heating the water. :-) Regards, Frederick > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:47:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA31020; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:12 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:51:00 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdfe4$9aeea580$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"H4YF7.0.Sa7.K2-Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Rick Wrote: >Robert - > >Is this IR seeing done strictly through your eyes? I know that sounds like >a dumb question, but there are these notions from eastern philosophy about >a third optic receptor of some sort. Does it still work with foil taped >between your eyes or over your forehead? That third optic receptor is the Pineal Body located on the brainstem. it is known (in recent medical research) to be photosensitive. it also is an endocrine gland that is involved in the melatonin- serotonin hormone process. that affect behavior and sex-related activity. Very easy to tie this in to the Lunar Cycle (a shot of IR at night every 29 days) and reproductive-behavior "anomalies". :-) Can you see the Full Moon through your rooftop on cloudless nights, Robert? :-) Regards, Frederick > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:56:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19622; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FD43C.C8FACC31 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:18:28 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: PMOD update 23/10 References: <199710232122.RAA21380 relay1.smtp.psi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KckdP3.0.Ho4.YHzJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > I fully understand that that would happen, I mean brass is > dia-magnetic. The steel bolt was interesting as it went from > dia-magnetic for 600ns then ferro-magnetic for 400ns or the rest of > the 1us pulse width. > > I don't know if diamagnetic is quite the correct term for > this effect - the magnetic field is excluded at high frequencies > by the electrical conductivity. This effect extends to dc for > superconductors but for metals the .6 us we are observing > is not unusual. Of course the magnetic response of the iron is > also be a factor as you have suggested. > > Greg, please send me a sample of the ferrite rod you are using. Will send it Monday via air mail. Its yours. > I would be happy to cover your costs for this as I have > been unable to find any locally. > The shorter length of my samples may be the reason I > am not seeing the FCRT waveforms you obtain. > > My current sampling technique with the scope grounded uses > a matched divider to a 75 ohm coax and a 75 ohm input scope > amplifier - about 600 mhz bandwidth and very clean traces > with almost zero ringing. My own latest ZPE experiments have > been in the 2 GHz freq. range and I have gained some understanding > of parasitics and wiring signal delays etc. It's been nice > getting back to the real time (non sampling) scope for a change! Makes my 50Mhz scope seem tame. > Please take my suggestion of decoupling the power supply > seriously - it is the result of many years working with circuits > like this one. In my experience no amount of parallel bypass > caps on the board can be effective with some supplies. > The reason for this is that the power supply output is > controled by a high gain feedback loop with an effective > output impedance measured in micro-ohms and a response > time short enough to cause strange effects in these > microsecond high current pulse experiments. Even a > 1 ohm resistor in series with the supply will prevent > high current high frequency transients from ringing back > and forth along the power supply leads. OK will decouple the supply, but I see very little across the PSU out connectors. > Thanks for the quick response and suggestions. > > George Holz > Varitronics Systems > 1924 US Hwy 22 East > Bound Brook, NJ 08805 > USA HI George, Thanks for the suggestion. Will give it a spin. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 16:57:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02401; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:52:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:52:52 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023195210_443479139 mrin45.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com Subject: From MER, Werjefelt pic & papers on web (magnetic battery) Resent-Message-ID: <"R2kAB3.0.8b.HD-Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, The magnetic battery of Mr. Werjefelt is on Stefan Hartman's web site at: http://www.overunity.de/over.htm Look under latest updates. Thanks, Butch LaFonte From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 17:01:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20534; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:54:42 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excess Heat vs. XSH Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:54:13 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <344ff280.15230097 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84 world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PqQto3.0.m05.kMzJq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:38:40 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] > We now subdivide our pi-notches into product >notches and excess heat notches (XSH-pi-notch). >The helium-4 production branch is connected with >the He-4-pi-notch. [snip] Mitchell, Is the He-4 considered a "product", or just a byproduct of XSH? (Or not related to XSH at all?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 17:05:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29626; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971023220858.008edd8c freeway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:59:02 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Eachus & Schnurer Resent-Message-ID: <"zVCtD3.0.qE7.AM-Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I find the recent postings of Eachus and Schnurer fascinating. > >Ed Strojny Ditto. Please keep it up, you guys. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 17:32:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09122; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:25:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:25:13 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bcdfe3$1c854ec0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:21:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: "Overunity" & Greetings from Norway Resent-Message-ID: <"wAgLO3.0.RE2.eh-Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick - > It's not an "unknown source", Rick. You just > agitate the water strongly enough to create > "Hydrinos" which concurrently give off EUV > and some "Sonoluminescence," thus heating the > water. :-) Uh... I knew that. Ahem. Just testing to make sure you were paying attention. ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 17:35:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10483; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:32:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:32:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:27:36 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Of Eachus Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"za6j3.0.gZ2.eo-Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HB Him Bad In the best sense of the word. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 18:07:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09811; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:01:07 +0000 Message-ID: <19971024010055.AAC11361 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"8l5W_1.0.BP2.9E_Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >The break-up was a gift from Uncle Sam to the stockholders, and to >everyone in the U.S. who makes telephone calls. I think it demonstrates why a >modern high tech society must have a strong, powerful, activist central >government. Otherwise we will be dominated by powerful business interests. I >do not believe in laissez faire capitalism. It led to monopolies back in 1900, >and it would do the same today if the government withdrew from the >marketplace. Monopolies are self-limiting in business because of competition, unless governmentally protected. "Laissez faire" means something like "leave us alone and let us do business," which government cannot do, because government's business is control. Business and government partnerships in the extreme case characterize fascism or communism. In pure capitalism, every dollar we spend is a vote for some business or cultural trend. The problem is that people vote for many foolish things with their money. We allow ourselves to be fooled, usually because we want to be fooled, for a variety of reasons. What it is that maintains healthy economic competition is not a simple issue. I believe the crux of it is cultural vitality via real education and morality. A powerful government is not the answer or the great (and obsolete) communist empires would be ruling a world of free and creative men (like in Marx's fantasies). If individuals do not have the capacity to be responsible for themselves in a society with very limited government, how can a few individuals have the capability to be responsible for everybody in a highly controlled social order? We are already dominated by powerful business interests and they have highly skilled politicians and media wonks cooperating with them. I don't think it is an accident that Tyson rules the roost or that technically feasible for decades (to use your example) hybrid automobiles are not available until this year and then only in Japan. Gore, meanwhile, grabs some political glitter by announcing the "new" technological development of the gasoline fuel cell, perhaps because does not present any immediate threat to the commercial-political status-quo. It goes without saying that big commercial success translates into political clout. Are we supposed to believe that the same will to power that forms monopoly in business is evil, while in government, it is benevolent? I would find more comfort in business control from monopolies than in cultural control from autocracy (which would include the former as well). Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 18:13:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19547; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:08:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:08:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Mills' experiments Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:59:27 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce018$13dfc400$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GLswF2.0.Hn4.LK_Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thur Oct 23, 1997 3:30 PM, Scott wrote: > U of Penn style experiment: > Gas H2 > Pressure 10 psig initial. During more-or-less steady excess heat > > production, the H gas pressuredropped steadily down to 170 mm > > Hg as if the H was being consumed. > Catalyst: KNO3. A bit complicated with the reaction possibilities. But, from the gas laws: N = 2.69E19 * P *To/Po*T molecules/cm^3 . Assuming 280 C (553 K) for T from other info that Scott provided and To at 300 K, the initial N was: 2.69E19 * 1277*300/760*533 = 2.45E19 H2 molecules/cm^3. At 170 mm Hg there were 2.69E19*170*300/760*533 = 3.264E18 molecules/cm^3 representing a "loss" of 2.124E19 H2 molecules/cm^3. Or a weight loss of 7.1E-5 grams of H2/cm^3. The possible reactions between the H2 and the KNO3: 1, 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 ----> 2 KOH + N2 + 4 H2O 2, H2O + 2 KNO3 -----> 2 KOH + N2 + 2.5 O2 3, 5 H2 + 2.5 O2 ------> 5 H2O Overall: (where are you Robin?) :-) 10 H2 + 4 KNO3 ------> 4 KOH + 2 N2 + 8 H2O Net " Non-condensible" loss. 8 molecules Net "condensible" gain (H2O) 8 molecules. Since the temperatures were not given this is strictly a shot in the dark, with the possibility that condensation of the water could account for the pressure drop. It would be applicable to a proper experimental "Protocol". Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 18:27:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13457; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023212020.006c19c8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:20:20 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Final Correction and Update for Dr. Merriman In-Reply-To: <344BFF58.6C10 math.ucla.edu> References: <19971019223723019.AAA193 default> <3.0.1.32.19971020085852.006a12c8 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971020152434.006af3b0 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971020192759.006bd77c world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CXACC3.0.AI3.CW_Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:03 PM 10/20/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >> BTW How many of the published papers (previously posted) >> had you read before making your statement that led to the twist >> in this thread? >> > >I have read only a couple of your papers, and so I am ignorant, >as I am on many things. Barry: Don't be so hard on yourself. Some feel Liebnitz was the last to have fully read the literature, others feel he came too late, too. ? Do you think anyone can keep up anymore? ======================================================== >The real unlterior motive of my comments in this thread is to >try and goad you into collaborating directly with some >external scientists to replicate your discoveries, or to perhaps >tell us whether such collaborations are underway, e.g. with >some of your MIT neighbors. Yes, a few groups are collaborating. Hopefully there will be at least a collaborative presentation accepted to ICCF7 if sufficient significant work is accomplished. ======================================================== >But, surely you can perceive that the CF world is divided >up rather cleanly into the "have's" and "have-nots" these >days, which is frustrating for a "have-not" scientist who >would like to determine the reality (or lack thereof) of the effect. IMO your division as such is arbitary, as the spectrum does NOT appear to necessarily be divided as such. There are scientists, engineers, historians, technologists, and students of this field. There are wry serious skeptics, TB-skeptics, and perhaps a few more categories. We can all agree that the copious funds going to hot fusion constitutes the "haves". BTW the effects in cf (plural) are real, and involve excess enthalpy, catastrophic desaturations, and helium-4 generation within the solid state (although with extensive destructive change wrought). Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 18:40:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22546; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:21:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:21:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023212057.006969f0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:20:57 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Swartz's IECEC'97 Paper? In-Reply-To: <971023121033_-292639824 emout11.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"m2qar2.0.CW5.pW_Jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:12 PM 10/23/97 -0400, Tom Stolper wrote: >In the bibliography of your papers in your post on Vortex-L dated Tue, Oct >21, 1997 9:02 AM EDT, you listed "Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic >Generators Using Nickel Cathodes," lECEC 1997 Proceedings, paper #97009. > >Will there be a summary of this paper in a forthcoming issue of COLD FUSION >TIMES? (I didn't see anything about it in the last issue, Vol. 5, No. 3, >Fall 1997. And by the way, I thought that it was another good issue, full of >interesting material that I haven't digested yet, especially about the work >of Arata & Zhang.) Yes. Was not able to put it in the last issue for timing reasons. > Will there be a report on >the cold fusion session at IECEC 1997 in a forthcoming issue of COLD FUSION >TIMES? (So far, I've seen almost nothing about the actual session anywhere, >just material from before the conference.) Yes. The next issue, volume 6 number 1 will contain the best of the IECEC. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 19:19:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20345; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Tree and earth Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_DOj93.0.pz4.ZD0Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some of the "new age types" are holding court and one of them proclaims, Schumann Resonance is 7.8 cps." Several of the fellows and ladies at Armstrong ask "What is this 'Schumann Resonance'?" One of the all around guys, ie, USAF, NASA, instrumentation gives us to 2 cent description. I was only at the lab a few years then but I later became one of the all around guys. 2 cents: The earth is one element, the ionosphere another and there is a cavity, electrically resonant formed between the two. There is a magnetic component, which is what the 'new age' guy is talking about, and both the electrical and magnetic, while small, can be detected on earth and in outer space the signal is not present, if you get far enough from the ionosphere and van Allen effects. So everyone exclaims "Really!" or "Really!?!". I read up on this, peg out all the all around gals and guys I can find, some NASA folks and so on. I see another fellow come by, some time later, with an SR 'detector'. This is a many many turn induction coil, with capacitor, connected to high gain reasonably OK amplifier. He runs it on a scope for us and shows us "See?" 7.8 cps, and it is all around us. Well we have the obligatory good stuff at Armstrong and this includes signal sources, SQUID, Nicolet dual Channel 660 FFT... and so on. We run the coil alone for resonance and it is TUNED to 7.7 to 7.9 cps with the the parallel capacitor-inductor. You ping it with ANYTHING and it will give you the ~ 7.6 cps. So, not a sale for this guy's device. But it is interesting. The basic idea is the 7.6 comes from the physical dimensions of the "system", being the earth and the ionosphere. Some time later the new age guy is back and I have read the "hardball nuts and bolts literature". He proclaims the 7.6, and its beneficial properties. I ask "Is it always 7.6?" and he gives me the yes always answer. I hold the ionosphere and photospher and magnetosphere are mobile and dynamic "gooshy" systems ... they MOVE.... and the 7.6 has to move too, if it is based on the physical attributes of the system. The new age guy claims no... does not move. Now he cannot tell me why, he can not tell me to what resolution the resonance stays put and he will not be confused with facts or questions. 7.8 and that's IT. Well I usually quit pushing if people keep to an opinion .... everyone is entitled to their own opinion but no one is 'entitled' to be wrong in their facts. I am a curious guy. The only "instrument" we saw was tuned to ~ 7.6.. and we did not have it anyway. But we did have a SQUID, or Superconducting quantum Interference Detector. This is a grand and marvelous magnetometer with a noise floor of about 30 to 40 femto Tesla... 20 fT on a good day. It is set up as a gradiometer and is used for magnetoencephalography and is in a nickle-iron alloy shielded room. Two sets of walls... and room within a room. Very nice. But not exactly part of my group. The guy who is tech support for the SQUID is a great coutry fellow, close to retirement, used to be flight line black box guy, races at Kilkare the local drag strip. I pitch him and he is game. I pitch the USAF and they see no harm. The pitch: We are going to do the study at 8:30 to 9:00 am each morning, after the SQUID is up and calibrated but before the subjects come. This is a gradiometer which means many years and millions of dollars of non government money have gone into design to ignore far fields but see near fields. What I want to do is monitor low level fields and see if there is detectable SR, or Schumann Resonance, and if it is at one frequency all the time. The way we do this is leave the doors to the shielded room open and take a 9 inch by 5/8 inch rod of ferrite and put it right under the probe. Now the ferrite has no near field or far field sensitivity... it is a flux concentrator for anything. This neatly erases the years and millions but does not require permanent modification of the SQUID. We find yes, there is a low level signal, from 100 or 200 fT to a few pT and it is SOMETIMES at 7.6 .. but it moves all around and part of the time we can correlate to magnetic storms, sun spot activity, the moon and sometimes we have no clue. And it is all very interesting and we get good baseline data on N-S and E-W orientations of the ferrite rod for 6 months. Great fun. The OTHER thing we found. One evening at about 8:40 pm... when, of course, no one is in the lab, we have a earthquake about 400 miles away that shakes windows locally. The stratigraphy is such that any big quake here will be much more strongly felt than an equivalent quake on the West coast. At 8:30 am we run up the stuff and LO! There is a doublet, or two peaks very close, at about 3.6 and 4 cps which are 200 times stronger than the preceding 6 months. I takes 2 days to get back to normal. Thus my introduction to magnetoseismology.... but that is another story. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 19:42:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13576; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971023212136.006b8f58 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:21:36 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Excess Heat vs. XSH In-Reply-To: <344ff280.15230097 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FgVyx3.0.0K3.5X_Jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 PM 10/23/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sun, 19 Oct 1997 15:38:40 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >[snip] >> We now subdivide our pi-notches into product >>notches and excess heat notches (XSH-pi-notch). >>The helium-4 production branch is connected with >>the He-4-pi-notch. >[snip] >Mitchell, > >Is the He-4 considered a "product", or just a byproduct of XSH? >(Or not related to XSH at all?) > The analysis is ongoing, and a manuscript has been submitted. Other than noting that the XSH and He-4 production appear to be linked for Pd-D2O systems, please excuse my holding off further discussion at this point in time for the above reason. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 19:59:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27251; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:47:51 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis Resent-Message-ID: <"SX2nL2.0.cf6.Kq0Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Rick Monteverde >From: Mpowers Consultants >Subject: Re: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis >X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg >Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 00:26:38 +0000 >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Rick Monteverde posted the following (edited for brevity) at 07:43 >1997.10.23 -1000: >>MPower - >> >> > For $6500 each., it's not a toy, but my >> > interest in welding Aluminum on an offshore >> > project entices... >> >>Would this be better than or equal to TIG welding for aluminum? > >I'm gonna get one of our mechanics to go down there with some aluminum > and check out it's capabilities for a proper job. I'm not myself a welder. > >>Could you >>weld very thick stock with it - stay ahead of heat flowing away from the >>work on pieces of any thickness (like TIG)? And why wouldn't it oxidize - >>especially with the additional O2 added to the stream? > >I expect it probably does - that's why I didn't bring one home yesterday. >And I wasn't prepared to try it myself - a matter of protocol in the showroom. > >> >>- Rick Monteverde >>Honolulu, HI >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 20:05:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08435; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:59:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:59:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:58:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710240258.VAA11405 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Miley's calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"eM7Na2.0.j32.zx0Kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rich Murray asks a lot of good questions about Miley's calorimetry. Unfortunately Miley does not provide a detailed description of his calorimetry methods in either of his papers on transmutation in CETI-style beads. I can only shed an oblique light on this issue. We have worked with an official CETI Rifex kit here at EarthTech. Although the kit was not promoted as an excess heat experiment, it nonetheless was provided with inlet and outlet temperature measuring stations and there was a section in the protocol book which discussed how to make electrolyte-flow calorimetric measurements of the heat generated in the cell. In our Rifex work, therefore, we monitored the inlet and outlet temperature sensors as suggested hoping to see some signs of excess heat. What we observed instead was a more-or-less meaningless meandering around of the delta-T signal in response to ambient temperature changes in our lab. The Rifex kit included an insulated chamber for the cell to operate in but there was no provision for temperature regulation of this chamber. Compared to the performance of the various calorimeter systems we have developed at EarthTech, the Rifex kit was hopelessly inadequate. Pure Speculation: If Miley had taken all the trouble we have taken to obtain respectable calorimetric measurement accuracies, I doubt he would have neglected to include a detailed description of those efforts in his papers. If he didn't take all that trouble, I doubt if his calorimetric results are reliable. What about the nuclear transmutations? At we speak, samples of our reacted Rifex beads, electrolyte, and electrodes are being analyzed by Miley's group for comparison to our own analyses. Hopefully we can integrate and resolve all this analytical data into a presentable report in a couple of more weeks. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 20:56:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06043; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971024035218.008e6e38 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:52:18 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Filament Experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"hyKG72.0.JU1.nj1Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:16 PM 10/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >At 18:09 10/23/97 -0400, Ed described his experiments with filaments, H and >K... > >Ed, looks like good work from here. Some of your parameters are quite >different from the Mills' experiments. I'll try to compare them now...let >me know where I go wrong, OK? > > Mills (HC Corp) Strojny >Gas: H2 H2 >Pressure: 2 mmHg 1 atm? >Catalyst: KNO3 various K & Pd compounds >Cell temperature: 280C cooler? >Filament: W Ni & Pt >Filament temp: ~2000 K ? >Excess power: 50 watts 0 > >Scott > Pressure was 1 atmosphere; bath temperatures from 30 to about 45 deg C.; filament temperatures up to the melting point of platinum (1555 deg for Ni and 1773 deg for Pt) Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 21:20:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09911; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:17:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710240416.XAA25908 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Recombination In-Reply-To: <971023121039_-158461136 emout13.mail.aol.com> from "Tstolper@aol.com" at "Oct 23, 97 12:12:33 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:16:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"44se11.0.kQ2.u42Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: > Shkedi, et al., failed to cite Mills, Good & Shaubach, Fusion Technology, > Vol. 25 (January 1994), pp. 103-119. Shekedi and his team failed to deal > with the much more robust results reported by Mills, Good & Shaubach in their > 1994 article, most of which were beyond even 100% recombination. > > The strongest recombination claimed by Shkedi, et al., was only about 34% > (see their Table IV). If this was the 10 gallon bucket experiment, myself and two chaps from Canada independently attempted to verify the calorimetric constant of the 10 gallon bucket. Our results were consistently higher than those reported by Mills et al. Therefore it appeared to us that the Mills et al calorimetry was mis-measured in a way that over-reported the "anomalous" heat. Calls to Shaubach were unrevealing, since by the time we had the report in hand, the experiment was many months over and done with and they had moved on to different (gaseous) schemes and had no interest in reviewing the earlier results. So the first two stages of Mills work were of dubious accuracy. 1.) the earliest low power results could be explained by recombination 2.) the second generation results could be explained by inaccurate caliometric calibration. Beyond those two stages I have no opinion, since I haven't kept up with the Mills work. I know he's gots lots of money now (> $10 million) to develop it, so if nothing comes of it, it won't be for lack of funding. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 23 22:22:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20505; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710240519.AAA09362 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:08:52 (-050 Subject: Re: good stuff Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19971023115624.006d4db4 mail.eden.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"858fj.0.F05.A_2Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:56:24 -0500 > From: Scott Little > SEVEN YEARS OF PHYSICS---the entire run of Physics News > Updates---is now available in searchable form on the AIP Website > at this address: www.aip.org/physnews/update. Also, I just ran across a rather large bibliography on the subject of "Emerging Energy." With all sections (which I certainly didn't browse) it must take several megabytes of file space -- all text. It's at: http://www.toccoa.com/ -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 02:55:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11837; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:51:55 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs In-Reply-To: <19971024010055.AAC11361 HOME> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yO9gL3.0.tu2.C_6Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Ed Wall wrote: > > It goes without saying that big commercial success translates into political > clout. Are we supposed to believe that the same will to power that forms > monopoly in business is evil, while in government, it is benevolent? I > would find more comfort in business control from monopolies than in cultural > control from autocracy (which would include the former as well). > I thoroughly disagree. The checks on Government are far tighter than the constraints on a monopolistic business. Look at Microsoft. It threatened to withdraw the Windows 95 license from Compaque Computers unless they also shipped Internet Explorer! It's an obvious abuse of market power and an attempt to strangle competition. Only a Government can prevent that sort of behavour. With all this talk of morality, I consider it my moral duty to avoid buying MS products when at all pratical. The beautiful and free OS Linux is gaining momentum (over 3 million installed worldwide) if it can reach 10% market share, MS will have an interesting race. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 06:48:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01422; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:44:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:44:05 -0700 Message-Id: <199710241343.JAA23847 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:19:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Magnetoencephalography [was Tree and earth] Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"C-TKm3.0.1M.aOAKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 23 Oct 97 at 22:04, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0400 (EDT) > From: John Schnurer > Subject: Tree and earth > > ... > > But we did have a SQUID, or > Superconducting quantum Interference Detector. This is a grand and > marvelous magnetometer with a noise floor of about 30 to 40 femto > Tesla... 20 fT on a good day. It is set up as a gradiometer and is used > for magnetoencephalography and is in a nickle-iron alloy shielded room. > Two sets of walls... and room within a room. Very nice. But not exactly > part of my group. John, a great story! By now there are a few installations worldwide for TOMOGRAPHIC magnetoencephalography. An array of 37 SQUID magnetometers, plus conventional electroencephalographic pickups -- all feeding into software for FFT and tomographic imaging in real time. Ref. 1. Generates nice colored maps of EM field activity inside the organism with resolutions of millimeters and milliseconds. Used to map nerve pathways in the brain and heart muscle. Also to monitor nerve activity in injuries such as Carpal Tunnel syndrome. Could you estimate a date when NASA or USAF started doing magnetoencephalography? ------------ 1. "Estimates of Brain Activity using Magnetic Field Tomography and Large Scale Communication within the Brain" by A.A. Ioannides. In "Bioelectrodynamics and Biocommunication" World Scientific, 1994. ------------ Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 06:51:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03000; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:48:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:48:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199710241348.JAA24562 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:24:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Magnetoencephalography [was Tree and earth] Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"WGk252.0.ok._SAKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 23 Oct 97 at 22:04, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0400 (EDT) > From: John Schnurer > Subject: Tree and earth > > ... > > But we did have a SQUID, or > Superconducting quantum Interference Detector. This is a grand and > marvelous magnetometer with a noise floor of about 30 to 40 femto > Tesla... 20 fT on a good day. It is set up as a gradiometer and is used > for magnetoencephalography and is in a nickle-iron alloy shielded room. > Two sets of walls... and room within a room. Very nice. But not exactly > part of my group. John, a great story! By now there are a few installations worldwide for TOMOGRAPHIC magnetoencephalography. An array of 37 SQUID magnetometers, plus conventional electroencephalographic pickups -- all feeding into software for FFT and tomographic imaging in real time. Ref. 1. Generates nice colored maps of EM field activity inside the organism with resolutions of millimeters and milliseconds. Used to map nerve pathways in the brain and heart muscle. Also to monitor nerve activity in injuries such as Carpal Tunnel syndrome. Could you estimate a date when NASA or USAF started doing magnetoencephalography? ------------ 1. "Estimates of Brain Activity using Magnetic Field Tomography and Large Scale Communication within the Brain" by A.A. Ioannides. In "Bioelectrodynamics and Biocommunication" World Scientific, 1994. ------------ Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 07:03:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07360; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:01:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:01:57 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971024090118.ZM12932 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:01:18 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Fractal pictures & animations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"AsJNz2.0.uo1.JfAKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a neat site I stumbled across this morning: http://www.cnam.fr/fractals.html -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 07:25:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01921; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:14:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: chronos enter.net cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: Re: Magnetoencephalography [was Tree and earth] In-Reply-To: <199710241348.JAA24562 mail.enter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-7uUg3.0.tT.ivAKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See notes: Dear Robert and Vo., MEG has been practiced at least since 1986 when I first came to Armstrong. I have fundamental objections to many issues in signal processing in the biological sciences and in general. I am not, per se, faulting all instrumentation although some has, in my opinion, a moderate to high GQ, or 'goofy quotient'. My primary objection in the LF areas are distortion of the dynamic aspects of the signals. One example: a] a low pass filter, or band pass filter which uses a low pass filter will distort rate of change information. To NOT do this would require a low pass filter which responds to rate of change witout distortion. An example of the distortion is a low pass filter of, say, a Q of 10. At 10 cps the ringing will be about 10 periods. Or, a step change from 1 v p-p to 2 v p-p will take about 1 second to be fully expressed in the output. Information in step change of, say 2 periods or 200 milliseconds will be no expressed fully... or even very much at all. An analogy would be a car with sensor on steering wheel. You drive from Dayton to Xenia, about 30 min, and the output of the sensor is averaged for 40 min. If you start in N-S orientation in parking lot in Dayton and wind up E-W in parking lot in Xenia, then the system will say you made a 90 degree turn. To NOT distort the LF signals would require a LPF, or low pass filter which would express step changes without delay, smoothing or attenuation. This is considered not to be possible. It is not only possible I have done it. Whole models of human performance are based on the distorted data. If you look at the raw data you can see reality. If you look at the filter output you see distortion. On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Robert G. Flower wrote: > > On 23 Oct 97 at 22:04, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0400 (EDT) > > From: John Schnurer > > Subject: Tree and earth > > > > ... > > > > But we did have a SQUID, or > > Superconducting quantum Interference Detector. This is a grand and > > marvelous magnetometer with a noise floor of about 30 to 40 femto > > Tesla... 20 fT on a good day. It is set up as a gradiometer and is used > > for magnetoencephalography and is in a nickle-iron alloy shielded room. > > Two sets of walls... and room within a room. Very nice. But not exactly > > part of my group. > > > John, a great story! > > By now there are a few installations worldwide for TOMOGRAPHIC > magnetoencephalography. An array of 37 SQUID magnetometers, plus > conventional electroencephalographic pickups -- all feeding into > software for FFT and tomographic imaging in real time. Ref. 1. > > Generates nice colored maps of EM field activity inside the organism > with resolutions of millimeters and milliseconds. Used to map nerve > pathways in the brain and heart muscle. Also to monitor nerve > activity in injuries such as Carpal Tunnel syndrome. > > Could you estimate a date when NASA or USAF started doing > magnetoencephalography? > > ------------ > 1. "Estimates of Brain Activity using Magnetic Field Tomography and > Large Scale Communication within the Brain" by A.A. Ioannides. In > "Bioelectrodynamics and Biocommunication" World Scientific, 1994. > ------------ > > > Best regards, > > Bob Flower > > ============================================= > Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > > Quality Control Engineering < > ============================================= > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 08:24:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07613; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024110942_-2064367177 emout07.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I stick to my story. Resent-Message-ID: <"5gDfM3.0.rs1.chBKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 10/23/97 5:06:11 PM, Frank Znidarsic wrote: <> When Casimir plates are pulled together, collide and produce heat, it produces at least heat power (though not much!) without cryogenics. If charged, would produce a small electrical surge. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 08:43:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11555; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024113058_525182567 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: ddameron earthlink.net Subject: RMOG V1.1 - New tests Resent-Message-ID: <"IEI9F1.0.Tq2.N1CKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, As Greg has said in his previous Email about the RMOG tuning, I have improved my RMOG V1.0 by reducing mechanical frictions, I have put in series with the ILS switch and the coils (connected in parallel) a 7 Volts DC power supply. The RMOG V1.1 turns now at low RPM. The ferrite flux gate must be very close to the coils (1mm), thus the magnets must be at least 4 mm far from the flux gate. The most difficult is to have a frictionless rotation in spite of the high trust load on the main axis due to the magnets attraction. The next step will be to disconnect the power supply and connect the ILS switch directly on the coils.....Towards a free device (may be)... I have made a video movie about my RMOG V1.1, I have updated my web site with this new test result at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/rmog1.htm Stay tuned...... Jean-louis Naudin 10/24/97, 15:16GMT From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 08:44:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27353; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:35:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:35:36 -0700 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: Martin Sevior Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:27:52 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"ZtNyl2.0.Ih6.71CKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 24-Oct-97, Martin Sevior wrote: >On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Ed Wall wrote: >> >> It goes without saying that big commercial success translates into >political >> clout. Are we supposed to believe that the same will to power that >forms >> monopoly in business is evil, while in government, it is benevolent? >I >> would find more comfort in business control from monopolies than in >cultural >> control from autocracy (which would include the former as well). >> >I thoroughly disagree. The checks on Government are far tighter than the >constraints on a monopolistic business. Look at Microsoft. It threatened >to >withdraw the Windows 95 license from Compaque Computers unless they also >shipped Internet Explorer! It's an obvious abuse of market power and an >attempt to strangle competition. Only a Government can prevent that sort >of >behavour. >With all this talk of morality, I consider it my moral duty to avoid >buying MS >products when at all pratical. The beautiful and free OS Linux is >gaining >momentum (over 3 million installed worldwide) if it can reach 10% >market >share, MS will have an interesting race. >Martin Sevior Here! Hear! Yes, Never buy Microsoft anything. Its mostly crap anyway. ___Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 09:36:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19734; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3450BFDA.753C earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:33:46 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@ipahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, stroms ix.netcom.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Details "prove" LENT, preclude error explanation]] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"UweMS3.0.Gq4.woCKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from pilot05.cl.msu.edu (pilot05.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.15]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA15710 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (blue localhost) by pilot05.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id KAA28836; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:07:01 -0400 Message-Id: <199710241407.KAA28836 pilot05.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Details "prove" LENT, preclude error explanation] To: rmforall earthlink.net Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard A Blue" In-Reply-To: <34503F5C.7E63 earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Oct 24, 97 01:25:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain I find the "proof" of the LENT process to be the most remarkable admission of ignorance of actual experimental conditions that one is likely to encounter, even in the world of bogus scientific claims. Where is the assumed "purification" of the starting thorium nitrate supposed to occur? Is the material anything other than ordinary commercial grade stuff? What, I believe, the author fails to appreciate is that "chemical purity" is defined to within some limits, and those limits likely are inadequate to define the initial radiochemistry. Without detailed analyses we simply do not know what activities are present and at what levels. Althought I, too, am largely ignorant of the chemistry involved my experience with radioisotopes is that you really can't guess as to where the activity will deposite and under what conditions. I really doubt that one can deduce much from the relative solubility of nitrates for the various daughters. The author also appears to be unaware of the various sorts of time dependences in activity that can result as the concentrations of various daughters in a complex decay chain move toward secular equilibrium. The choice of starting material for the demonstration of some new phenomena involving activities could hardly be worse than the one made by the Cincinnati Group. Thorium is a mess! Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 11:47:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10913; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:34:02 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024134412_-124141855 emout09.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, NEWMAN-L emachine.com cc: fepps mail1.halcyon.com, harti@harti.com, srae@mlb.planet.gen.nz, mrandall earthlink.net, vramos@ctv.es, ddameron@earthlink.net, bauer.d krypta.aball.de Subject: RMOG-PMOD..DNMEC....Where is the Truth ? Resent-Message-ID: <"zXlPt1.0.7g2.EeEKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg and ALL, Greg Watson wrote on 10/09/1997 17:25:32 < Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:22:50 +0930 Subject: DNMEC Project Status Report 1) PMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. DC power out 78mw. Working on a 12V 10A unit at present. The TEP guys are getting warm. 2) RMOG ...... Runs in self powering mode. 165 RPM no load. Have driven a small generator at 100mw. Working on a 3000 RPM unit with 100w of 50Hz output. Muller is warm and cold. >> =================================== ---- About the PMOD : You find bellow some Emails between Stefan Hartmann and Greg Watson ----------------------------------------- Suj : Re: PMOD still running ? Specs please. Date : 14/10/1997 07:17:56 From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > as you claimed PMOD is already in selfrunning mode, Not self powered. The original PMOD experiments date back on and off over the last 3 years. My final unit consumed (from my notes) 35mw and put out 78mw. The two voltages were different and the output still noisy. I used transistors, not mosfets. =================================== ---- About the RMOG : You find bellow an answer of Greg Watson ----------------------------------------- << Suj : RMOG Hints Date : 24/10/1997 17:14:52 From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) Stefan is right, I haven't built this unit yet. Will start this weekend. It is a VERY simple version of my more complex 6 pole, 5 stator unit. Hope the above quick reply helps. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson >> ======================================== WHERE IS THE TRUTH ?????? GREG, WHEN YOU POST A SCHEME OR A DIAGRAM OF A NEW DEVICE, PLEASE, LET US KNOW IF THIS DEVICE HAS BEEN TESTED BY YOUR-SELF OR NOT, AND GIVE US DETAILLED RESULTS OF YOUR TEST. IF THIS IS ONLY AN IDEA OR A SUGGESTION, I ASK YOU TO SAY IT CLEARLY. THIS WILL AVOID SOME WASTE OF MONEY AND TIME TO ALL OF US. THANKS, ( This mail has been sent at 17h45 GMT on 24 October 97 ) Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 11:55:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01468; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:40:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:40:16 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971024144327.00b5a7e0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:43:27 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19971022184248.00af3880 spectre.mitre.org> <971022081556_1244100822 mrin42.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-8hSd1.0.sM.EkEKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:00 AM 10/23/97 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Is this IR seeing done strictly through your eyes? I know that sounds like >a dumb question, but there are these notions from eastern philosophy about >a third optic receptor of some sort. Does it still work with foil taped >between your eyes or over your forehead? It seems like a very dumb question, but--it isn't. Most people are sensitive to IR on the skin--think heat lamp. Lots of people are sensitive to UV on the skin, I am one. (The body uses the UV to produce vitamin D, and melatonin and melatonin is known to be active in brain chemistry.) So we had to be careful in some of the experiments to reduce the amount of skin exposed. But in this sense the question is extremely dumb... We are not just talking about sensing but about seeing. I can't imagine a "third eye" which was part of the body and whose images were integrated with those from your eyes, compensated for eye movement, etc., etc. The best guess seems to be that the humor in the eyes is more transparent and lets the IR through. This would explain all three related aspects. I think we should take any further discussion of this off of Vortex. I've kept it here so far, because the experience with belief systems that it gave me has been invaluable in separating CF wheat from the chaff. People who are willing to abandon not one, but several, theories to arrive at the truth are very, very rare. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 11:57:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04538; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:55:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:55:14 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024145341_899582622 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: good question Resent-Message-ID: <"tfX_Q1.0.i61.FyEKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Any divice that claims to produce electrical > power from ZPE. If it's not cryogenic its not > working. Because it involves those conditions that result in superconductivity? What if those things can happen at room temperature under certain conditions? Some faint signs of superconductivity have been found at normal temperatures, and a room temperature *bulk* superconductor is not thought to be impossible. And what about the Correa PAGD devices? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI ................................................................. Rick good question. Check out patent # 4043809 : Room temperature superconductors and method ------------------------------------------ on the IBM patent server. IBM Patent Server Home Page The high temp superconductors are composed of nickel and hydrogen and palladium and hydrogen. Sound familiar! It's has the same composition as a cold fusion anode. This patent was issued decades before "cold fusion" was discovered. As to what you do to the superconductor to generate power. I will be mum for a while. I am on file with the idea and currently conducting experiments to improve the process. I am also in contant with organizations that have asked me not reveal what I have been told or what I know. High temp superconductivity is the result of a "band gap" near the Fermi energy in a solid. The Hydrgen that is adsorbed in nickel and palladium form a dense "quantum" plasma. 1 x 10 ex 27 electrons / cubic meter. This forms an artificial band gap within the nickel by making the band gap wavelengths evanescent. This is the mechanism at work within room temperature nickel hydrogen superconductors. Did you not notice the post where Storm's asked Kennel about the superconductive connection? This was not mute or off the wall question. Strom's is on to it. I also have some knowledge that CETI and Poletkenov are onto it. I filed first October 1997 and that's important. I clearly defined the process as gravitational and clearly defined the parameters at work. It's all on the patent application. I am the first and proud to be so. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 12:08:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08732; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:03:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:03:12 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Patterson Bead-"Transmutation" Question Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 05:37:46 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce071$40049660$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_h6rW3.0.482.k3FKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I was reading over Patterson's patents at John Logajan's web page. Seems that Patterson uses Sulphonated Polystyrene Polymer beads which are very similar to the expanded polystyrene used in "Styrofoam" and the heat expandable beads used in construction insulation. Sulphonating the beads to create an Ion Exchange "Matrix" to facilitate plating also sets up the ability for the beads to exchange cations like Th+ and H+ etc., posing the possibility that the Alpha particles (He++) from Thorium decay are getting "sequestered" or hidden along with the Th+ ions in the bead matrix (which should swell on heating) thus indicating a lowered radioactivity. Have the beads been melted down-burnt out, after the "cleanup" runs to see if this is where the Thorium (radioactivity) has been "hidden"? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 12:11:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08920; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:03:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:03:27 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: The Amazing SPIT (Simple Peroxide IdiotToy) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:38:36 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce092$e5009940$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"dcWi42.0.nA2.x3FKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Amaze your friends. Score, (with a significant other). Wile away the hours at work. Learn statistics and chance. (and secrets of the Orient) Pour a about a 1/4" layer of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide-Water solution (about 50 cents a pint at the store) in a flat-bottomed dish. Put in some copper or silvered coins (or BBs). Be Patient, and watch the "action". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 12:24:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13504; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:13:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:13:03 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024151123_1757674668 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: LAFONTE MOTOR/GENERATOR DESIGN (COMMENTS PLEASE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.24275.emout06.mail.aol.com.877720283" Resent-Message-ID: <"J0kfd3.0.ZI3.wCFKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --PART.BOUNDARY.0.24275.emout06.mail.aol.com.877720283 Content-ID: <0_24275_877720283 emout06.mail.aol.com.46632> Content-type: text/plain Hello, Take a Look at the attached gif file and give me your comments please. It is not tested, but if you have any questions about force balance system, look at http://www.overunity.de/over.htm under latest updates for Werjefelt papers. Thanks, Butch LaFonte --PART.BOUNDARY.0.24275.emout06.mail.aol.com.877720283 Content-ID: <0_24275_877720283 emout06.mail.aol.com.46633> Content-type: image/gif; name="BUTCH11.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhYALVAfcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8Hut1oS13nOt1nut 3pS93nu13oy13oy93pzG3s7e797n76XG573W563O56XO5+fv9+fn75y93nu11nOt3sbe77XO 5/f39+/v94S93u/397XW59bn78bW55zG587n773W797v797n997v9+f393O13rXW75y959bn 99be773e78bW7/f3/5S955TG3rXO763G5/f////39/f/987e987n963W55TG5//3/63O75zO 54y95///963W74y154S156XO7wQEBAgICAwMDBERERYWFhwcHCIiIikpKVVVVU1NTUJCQjk5 Of98gP9QUNYAk8zs/+/Wxufn1q2pkDMAAGYAAJkAAMwAAAAzADMzAGYzAJkzAMwzAP8zAABm ADNmAGZmAJlmAMxmAP9mAACZADOZAGaZAJmZAMyZAP+ZAADMADPMAGbMAJnMAMzMAP/MAGb/ AJn/AMz/AAAAMzMAM2YAM5kAM8wAM/8AMwAzMzMzM2YzM5kzM8wzM/8zMwBmMzNmM2ZmM5lm M8xmM/9mMwCZMzOZM2aZM5mZM8yZM/+ZMwDMMzPMM2bMM5nMM8zMM//MMzP/M2b/M5n/M8z/ M///MwAAZjMAZmYAZpkAZswAZv8AZgAzZjMzZmYzZpkzZswzZv8zZgBmZjNmZmZmZplmZsxm 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1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16255; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:24:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:24:55 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024152224_1244349723 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Scale of Transmutations? Resent-Message-ID: <"aU-i11.0.mz3.4OFKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry Merriman has referred to delicate, nanoscale transmutations by Miley. Others have referred to massive transmutation claims by Miley. Scott Little has alluded to two papers by Miley. I seem to have missed something important here, though not the transmutation claims themselves, which I think are very doubtful and a big distraction from the main event (excess heat). I haven't been following the transmutation arguments closely, and the nuclear chemistry is hard to follow. Are there two or more separate sets of claims by Miley and colleagues? I have the preprint of one paper, by Miley & Patterson, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," as published in INFINITE ENERGY, No. 9, July/August 1996, pp. 19-32. There is an item in COLD FUSION TIMES, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Spring 1997), p. 7, called "Experimental Observation of Massive Transmutation in Multilayer Thin-Film Microspheres," with Miley, Narne, Williams, Patterson, Nix, Cravens, & Hora listed as the authors. Is this a summary of the ICCF6 paper with virtually the same title? It looks like two different sets of experiments with two different types of beads, and results on different scales. Is that the case? Which is which? How does the Rifex kit fit into the picture? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 13:16:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23606; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3451127D.40B727A3 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:26:21 +0400 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kdnvb2.0.jm5.gyFKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: R. Wormus wrote: > > Here! Hear! Yes, Never buy Microsoft anything. Its mostly crap > anyway. > MS never fix their products. This is an interesting strategy. They are always moving to the next step instead of fix, optimize or enhance the programs and OS's. This strategy can be understandable when we look to the past and see the future. nearly everyt hing on computer area even concepts are becoming obsolete within a ten years. Unix is perfect but it could not respond today needs. I interpret this fast evolution as not a regular development but as transients. It is not possible to invest to future (5-1 0 years) with the current software and hardware technology I think. Gates have a very good for sighting. The brutal game that MS play is not purely a marketing strategy but a part of a future plan. I think he visualize the whole World *inside* his operati ng system. We can see how their programs do decisions overriding our want to do and always impose something to favor to MS's plans. An operating system should be transparent to user and to applications in principle. But W95 is definitely not. Intentionally the some of rules and protocols separating OS from applications are removed. When these rules a removed OS the worst things are occurring both for the users and both for the other software developers. It gain control over us practically. This strategy is belong pa thological entities. Regards, hamdi ucar Note to Ron: I erronously posted this to your mailbox previously. Sorry about. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 13:32:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26263; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710242021.PAA23462 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex , John Schnurer , vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:22:27 (-050 Subject: Re: Tree and earth Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"7NuoT1.0.EQ6.hDGKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0400 (EDT) > From: John Schnurer The OTHER thing we found. One evening at about 8:40 pm... when, > of course, no one is in the lab, we have a earthquake about 400 miles > away that shakes windows locally. The stratigraphy is such that any big > quake here will be much more strongly felt than an equivalent quake on > the West coast. > At 8:30 am we run up the stuff and LO! There is a doublet, or > two peaks very close, at about 3.6 and 4 cps which are 200 times stronger > than the preceding 6 months. I takes 2 days to get back to normal. Thus > my introduction to magnetoseismology.... but that is another story. Huh? Is this published anywhere??? Do you recall if there was any anomalous signal the morning prior to the quake? BTW, the 'new-age' types are saying the 'virbration of the Earth' has risen and is now in the 9 Hz range. I haven't yet figured out how they measure this. :) -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 13:51:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA30223; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:31:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:31:11 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:41 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: "Dean T. Miller" cc: vortex , vortex-l@eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: Re: Tree and earth In-Reply-To: <199710242021.PAA23462 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mLQPa2.0.8O7.EMGKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dean and Vo., We did not publish. There are some published distorted stuff similar to this. We have a reasonable body of data. More needs to be collected. SQUID not necessary for this. Good possibility of precoursors being identified if [a] signal processing right [b] more data. The precoursors are geographically dependent .. ie., no 'magic' figure, depends on stratigraphy. As we found the Schumann R moves. It can be measured with non SQUID, again, instruments and signal processing must be correct. JHS On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Dean T. Miller wrote: > Hi John, > > > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:04:39 -0400 (EDT) > > From: John Schnurer > > The OTHER thing we found. One evening at about 8:40 pm... when, > > of course, no one is in the lab, we have a earthquake about 400 miles > > away that shakes windows locally. The stratigraphy is such that any big > > quake here will be much more strongly felt than an equivalent quake on > > the West coast. > > At 8:30 am we run up the stuff and LO! There is a doublet, or > > two peaks very close, at about 3.6 and 4 cps which are 200 times stronger > > than the preceding 6 months. I takes 2 days to get back to normal. Thus > > my introduction to magnetoseismology.... but that is another story. > > Huh? Is this published anywhere??? Do you recall if there was any > anomalous signal the morning prior to the quake? > > BTW, the 'new-age' types are saying the 'virbration of the Earth' has > risen and is now in the 9 Hz range. I haven't yet figured out how they > measure this. :) > > -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 14:09:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03843; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:00:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:00:55 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:58:57 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce0bf$a55ad4e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pz6Iq.0.tx.6oGKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robert I. Eachus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Optical transparency Re: Infrared ESP Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > It seems like a very dumb question, but--it isn't. Most people are >sensitive to IR on the skin--think heat lamp. Lots of people are sensitive >to UV on the skin, I am one. (The body uses the UV to produce vitamin D, >and melatonin and melatonin is known to be active in brain chemistry.) So >we had to be careful in some of the experiments to reduce the amount of >skin exposed. > > But in this sense the question is extremely dumb... We are not just >talking about sensing but about seeing. I can't imagine a "third eye" >which was part of the body and whose images were integrated with those from >your eyes, compensated for eye movement, etc., etc. The best guess seems >to be that the humor in the eyes is more transparent and lets the IR >through. This would explain all three related aspects. I find this extremely interesting, Robert. Particularly the range of biological-biochemical response to external (energy) influences. The work going on in this area (now that adequate experimental apparatus is available) is revealing the variation in response of individuals to the environment. A case in point is the range of low frequency hearing response of individuals being conducted by researchers at the University of New Mexico, School of Medicine. Once they got the background of sound down to less than 1.0E-16 watts/cm^2 (zero db ref for sound) they are finding many people can hear sound down to less than 30 hertz at lower levels than believed possible. Across the spectrum noise levels approaching (or below) the thermal noise, 3/2 kT, of the fluid in the inner ear can be perceived under quiet conditions. Thanks much for sharing the information on IR -UV. Regards, Frederick > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 14:12:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04159; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:02:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:02:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971024154623.006d77f8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:46:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Scale of Transmutations? In-Reply-To: <971024152224_1244349723 emout04.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5iBj91.0.s01.5pGKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 15:24 10/24/97 -0400, Tom S wrote: >Barry Merriman has referred to delicate, nanoscale transmutations by Miley. >Others have referred to massive transmutation claims by Miley. In this case, magnitude is in the eye of the beholder. >Are there >two or more separate sets of claims by Miley and colleagues? > How does the Rifex kit fit into the picture? ...an excerpt from my Rifex kit report: RIFEX is an acronym that stands for Reaction In a Film Excited compleX. Clean Energy Technologies, Inc (CETI) made the RIFEX kit available in late 1996 to provide "the opportunity to examine and conduct research on CETI's Patterson Power Cell which has received several U.S. Patents and has been acclaimed as the first device to reliably demonstrate chemically assisted nuclear reactions."(1) Most of the evidence for these nuclear reactions comes from the work of Dr. George Miley at the University of Illinois (2),(3). 1. RIFEX kit sales brochure, Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. 1996 2. Miley, George H. & James A. Patterson. 1996a. "Nuclear transmutations in thin-film nickel coatings undergoing electrolysis". Second International Conference in Low-Energy Nuclear Reaction. Texas A&M, College Station, Texas. (September 13-14). 3. Miley, George H., G. Narne, M. J. Williams, J. A. Patterson, J. Nix, D. Cravens, and H. Hora. 1996b. "Quantitative observation of transmutation products occurring in thin-film coated microspheres during electrolysis." Proceedings of the ICCF-6. Hokkaido Japan. (October 14-17). Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 15:14:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13442; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:05:22 -0700 (PDT) From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971024180443_848077358 mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re:To Dave on LaFonte motor/generator Resent-Message-ID: <"CJO-e.0.mH3.RkHKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 97-10-24 16:20:19 EDT, you write: << Can you please give a short description of the motor? For example, what is magnet #1 for? Are the coils #3,4 duplicates in parallel? Thanks, -Dave I also have a question about the Werjefelt paper. I can see how a magnetic pole can cancel that of another magnet pair, or a magnet and pole., but don't see how it can cancel the generator torque. The first example has positive/negative torques as the shaft is rotated, but the generator torque is always one direction? >> Dave, The motor is based on the principle that the energy lost from deflecting the magnetic flux path can be recovered by taking the energy from the collapse of the magnetic field around the coils, and putting it to use by increasing the torque on the shaft and keeping the balance system forces equal and also have some energy left over. # 3 & # 4 coils are duplicates in parallel. Ferrite rod # 1 is connected to the shaft to transfer the torque created by the interaction of the electro-magnets with the rod. The energy for this comes from the collapse of the magnetic fields around coils # 3 & # 4. The collapse of these coil fields is caused by the flux deflection created by magnet # 2 As to the Werjefelt battery, he keeps the load torque solution secret, till the patent is issued. I think he is switching off the repulsion system during the period the rotor in the generator section is in the attraction mode approaching top dead center (circuit open) ? The faster the RPM the shorter the switch time. ( as with Muller motor) I will send full description of operation of my design as soon as I can put it together. Please respond, Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 17:02:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11336; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:56:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:56:35 -0700 Message-ID: <34513586.106B0053 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:25:51 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD 24/10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"udYDk2.0.tm2.mMJKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, The PMOD update 24/10 is up. Here I confirm that the domain avalanche resonance frequency is related to the physical length of the rod. I also show that a centred rod generated the greatest signal. Looks like we will be dealing with a 60ns (about 15Mhz) output signal and need to reduce the primary coil's current pulse width to around 20ns. Good reading. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 18:00:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07658; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:54:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <344DFE2C.22E8A1E8 microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:58:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD update 22/10 Resent-Message-ID: <"VTg_V2.0.Yt1.NDKKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: G. Watson wrote: > >I have updated my site with more PMOD results. Full 1us current >waveforms and a strange Steel bolt which for 600ns acts like its >permeability is below 1. > Sounds like skin effect, which initially excludes flux from the conductor (steel). Later, the ferromagnetism takes over. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 19:17:11 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03528; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:06:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:06:10 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:18:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Tree and earth Message-ID: <19971024.190237.3310.0.Jahuti juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-21,23,25,27,29-33 From: jahuti juno.com (Michael Morrison) Resent-Message-ID: <"Y-2SL3.0.2t.HGLKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:41 -0400 (EDT) John Schnurer writes: > > > Dean and Vo., > > We did not publish. There are some published distorted stuff >similar to this. We have a reasonable body of data. More needs to be > >collected. SQUID not necessary for this. Good possibility of >precoursors being identified if [a] signal processing right [b] more >data. The precoursors are geographically dependent .. ie., no 'magic' > >figure, depends on stratigraphy. > > > As we found the Schumann R moves. It can be measured with non >SQUID, again, instruments and signal processing must be correct. > JHS Do you have any suggestions concerning what might be used? It doesn't have to be super-accurate, but cost is a factor. A few pointers concerning the signal processing would be appreciated. This is an area of investigation for which there is scant published data, and any further data would be useful, even if it is of the qualitative sort. -- Michael Morrison Target ICBMs or cruise missles to 38.406N 122.735W From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 19:33:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19409; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:23:49 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Open questions Tree and earth In-Reply-To: <19971024.190237.3310.0.Jahuti juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yhzy11.0.4l4.ZbLKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Mike and Vo., Let us please take this a few steps at a time. Do we want to know about: Q: Magneto seismology and-or mechanical seimology. Both have merit. Q: Signal acquistion. Not too bad to do if you are willing to learn and go the miles. Q: Signal processing. This is non trivial. Q: Primary work to extract possible precoursors to earthquake. This is fundamental work.. Important and non trivial. This WILL take time and effort, but, in my opinion, can be done if one or many are willing. JHS On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Michael Morrison wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:41 -0400 (EDT) John Schnurer > writes: > > > > > > Dean and Vo., > > > > We did not publish. There are some published distorted stuff > >similar to this. We have a reasonable body of data. More needs to be > > > >collected. SQUID not necessary for this. Good possibility of > >precoursors being identified if [a] signal processing right [b] more > >data. The precoursors are geographically dependent .. ie., no 'magic' > > > >figure, depends on stratigraphy. > > > > > > As we found the Schumann R moves. It can be measured with non > >SQUID, again, instruments and signal processing must be correct. > > > JHS > > Do you have any suggestions concerning what might be used? It doesn't > have to be > super-accurate, but cost is a factor. A few pointers concerning the > signal processing > would be appreciated. This is an area of investigation for which there is > scant > published data, and any further data would be useful, even if it is of > the qualitative sort. > -- > Michael Morrison > > Target ICBMs or cruise missles to 38.406N 122.735W > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 19:43:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21723; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:35:55 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Tree and Earth Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WVisd1.0.LJ5.smLKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Dean and Vo., Some brief notes: Thank you all for picking up the ball. I am writing these stories for myself, a lot for my nephew Max. A lot for the community at large. I have done a lot of this work out of pocket and it has hurt me at times. I am hoping there will be enough interest to either do it right and follow on and-or defray some of the costs. I know there many out there who have bet a lot of their own. Some make do. Many just take it in the neck. But it, the work, whatever the "it" needs to be done. Quake data: There were no anomalous signals prior to the event. This has been considered to be important by some. For many years in the development of the USAF brain wave analysis equipment I ran, with permission, parallel NERAC data base searches on a] EEG amplifers and filters b] seismological amplifiers and filters This dual search was my idea because I had a feeling then, as I do now, any discipline can have blinders.... and multidisciplinary work can yield great benefit. I figured siesmo and EEG folks had some of the same and complementary tasks, or puzzles. I found this was so. I found few investigated both. It paid off big time in the balance of my work to take all efforts on in this spirit. Both also had on some of the same blinders. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 19:53:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11263; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:49:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:49:17 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Excess Heat vs. XSH Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:48:19 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34554ac6.9092337 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971019153840.006d9d84@world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19971023212136.006b8f58@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971023212136.006b8f58 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jJzde2.0.ul2.iuLKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:21:36 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] > The analysis is ongoing, and a manuscript has >been submitted. Other than noting that the XSH and He-4 >production appear to be linked for Pd-D2O systems, >please excuse my holding off further discussion >at this point in time for the above reason. [snip] Thanks. Would you be so kind as to let us know when and where this is published? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 20:00:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAB22998; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:56:01 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tree and earth Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:48:20 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34564d24.9698833 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KC-Vl2.0.Ed5.y-LKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:41 -0400 (EDT), John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dean and Vo., > > We did not publish. There are some published distorted stuff >similar to this. We have a reasonable body of data. More needs to be >collected. SQUID not necessary for this. Good possibility of >precoursors being identified if [a] signal processing right [b] more >data. The precoursors are geographically dependent .. ie., no 'magic' >figure, depends on stratigraphy. > > > As we found the Schumann R moves. It can be measured with non >SQUID, again, instruments and signal processing must be correct. [snip] Possibly related: If you divide the speed of light (in vacuum) by the circumference of the earth you get 7.5 cps. I.e. a signal at this frequency will be in phase with itself (after going around the planet), and thus resonate. I suppose however that this would be subject to variations in light speed due to variances in refractive index of the medium it passes through. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 20:07:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24594; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:59:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer cc: vortex Subject: Tree fields Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3D3WU2.0.B06.m7MKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Over several years repeated mention of a specific patent kept catching my eye. I saw it over and over, at random times on different news groups. After maybe 15 times and 3 years I took the usualy staps I take. I asked a patent attorney I knew if he had heard about it and he said yes. He also said to let him know if I found out more. In some cases a given patent firm will be asked to work on a patent in some field where there is not an in-house expert. The firm will then find the appropriate party skilled in the discipline. This is reasonably common. I called the firm which executed the patent and found a they used an outside person to help. I called that person and asked if I could get a method of contacting the inventor. To make a long story a little shorter I was able to, after some effort and time, speak by telephone to the inventor's brother. The inventor was in ill health. I asked permission to duplicate the work and asked if they would support any findings. Patent number 4,961,880 William Barker. This patent described a method to accelerate the decay of alpha emitters. I will not go into a whole lot of detail, but give you the bare bones, as I have with the earlier stories. I caution you there is no safe level of radioactive exposure. The method uses high voltage. This is non trivial and high voltage can be lethal. If you want to do this, read the patent and get good assistance. I personally worked with radioactive isotopes in professional lab setting and the same goes for high voltage, but in a different lab. None of it is a game. We enlisted the aid of a college senior and the head of the geology department. We took a small mineral sample which was hot. Sounded like popcorn popping from the GM counter. We CAREFULLY broke the rock and selected two roughly equal fragments. Equal as to size and uniformity and popcorn. We took an unused van de Graff generator, removed the belt and carefully cleaned the support tube with alcohol to raise its resistance. A lab rack mount high voltage generator was used and all wiring was military grade high voltage cable rated at 60 KV. The minus HV was conveyed up the empty tube and at ground potential. The plus was conveyed to 2" aluminum hollow sphere on horizontal glass rod. This sphere was about 3.5 inches from a 1/2 inch hole the student drilled and dressed in the side of the van de Graff collector sphere at slightly below the mid point, or "equator". A little platform of cardboard and wood was made to fit inside the big sphere. The minus wire was bondedd to the inside of the big sphere and a GM battery operated counter was placed inside the big sphere. The battery leads were extended to come down the tube and go to bench power supply for the nominal 9 VDC required. The "on" switch for the GM counter, a momentary normally open switch was fixed to the on position with a nut and rubber band. All of this allowed us to close the whole deal up and take readings. One of the mineral fragments was folded into polyethylene and positioned on the internal cardboard platform so as to next to but not protruding from the big sphere. Please see Barker's patent... very important. This describes method of excitation for several hours. We used 14 hours at 40 KV. And then there is NO MORE EXPOSURE for the rest of the experiment. One time... and no more. We took readings by placing tape recorder on top of sphere to record the clicks. In about 10 months the test fragment was close to background. The control was still hot and unchanged. Very neat method. Simple. Works. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 20:26:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18920; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:20:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:20:57 -0700 Message-ID: <34516573.9BB4B933 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:50:19 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG under construction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sH_4H3.0.Ud4.OMMKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I now have ALL the bits and I am starting to put it all together. I cut my ferrite rods using a diamond cut-off wheel in my Dremel tool. Works well. When winding the coils, you MUST ensure that NO ferrite extends into the gap. Any extruding of the ferrite rod past the coil windings into the air gap will reduce the amount of flux distorting. Its the flux distorting that make this effect work. The coil windings and the end of the ferrite rod must be in line. I use a end piece lightly glued into place to form the windings, use Super Glue to bond the wires together and then remove the end piece. The main goal of the RMOG is to cause a slight increase in the inward energy as opposed to the drag back energy. High flux densities ARE NOT required. I will build two units. One as per my plans and another with one pair of coils and magnets reversed. The flipped pair will change the high thrust load into a high torque (twisting) load. Maybe the rotor bearings can handle a twisting load better. Don't try this unless your rotor disk and method of attachment to the rotor's shaft is VERY stiff. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 20:31:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27801; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <345166BB.F16B41A microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:55:47 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG V1.0 and hints. References: <199710240614.XAA19339 denmark.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cn74X2.0.5o6.RRMKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave Dameron wrote: > > Hi Greg, Jean-Louis and all, > I finished my RMOG today and it is very close to Greg's spec's > Unfortunately, it did not run. My magnets and ferrite are both 1 cm > diameter, but the rotor is 10 mm thick, I could not hold the ferrite any > closer to break off a piece < about 10 mm in length. I then ground the ends > flat on a sharpening stone. I tuned the reed switch with a battery and small > lamp for the 5 mm rotor ferrite travel. No flexible magnet I tried could > close my reed switch, so used another type. > > It may be that the rotor slowed faster than with the magnets removed. Too > subjective to tell.. I tried both magnet polarities and coil polarities in > parallel. > My opinion on why it didn't run: The magnet's field was much larger than > that produced by the coils, so there was very little deflection of the flux > from the gap. (Even if it did, wouldn't that just change the slope of the > magnetic potential vs rotor travel, producing a minimum at about -5mm, but > not change it's final minimum -> K.E. imparted to the rotor?) What I think > the coil did, in addition, was act as an eddy current brake, removing energy > from the rotor. At 0 mm, when the > rotor is centered in the gap and the switch turns off, the rotor then has to > travel up the full magnetic potential leaving the gap. This is why I > compared it with the magnets removed. (No braking) > > With the coils powered (Mine have 5 Ohms each), could get the rotor to oscillate > about the centered position. The impulses, with or without the magnets, were > not quite enough for it to run as a DC motor, e.g. 30 sec run vs. 15 sec. > without power input. Motor operation seemed to want a slight "advance" of > the reed magnets. You should be able to get it to run as a motor. Its the first step. > Has anyone seen any good plans to build a magnetometer to test the fields? I > would like to test DC as well. > -Dave Hi Dave, I am building my RMOG this weekend. Will be able to provide better feedback then. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 20:36:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22019; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:32:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:32:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3451681F.61CBF123 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:01:43 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG V1.1 - New tests References: <971024113049_933110119 emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iQUkT3.0.zN5.3XMKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi All, > > As Greg has said in his previous Email about the RMOG tuning, I have improved > my RMOG V1.0 by reducing mechanical frictions, I have put in series with the > ILS switch and the coils (connected in parallel) a 7 Volts DC power supply. > The RMOG V1.1 turns now at low RPM. Try both power supply polarities. It should run better with the coils producing a like pole face as the magnet. > The ferrite flux gate must be very close to the coils (1mm), thus the magnets > must be at least 4 mm far from the flux gate. The most difficult is to have a > frictionless rotation in spite of the high trust load on the main axis due to > the magnets attraction. Yes, the spacing should be much closer to the coil than the magnet. > The next step will be to disconnect the power supply and connect the ILS > switch directly on the coils.....Towards a free device (may be)... I use a double pole, double throw, centre off switch. I use the coils in parallel. > I have made a video movie about my RMOG V1.1, I have updated my web site with > this new test result at: > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/rmog1.htm > > Stay tuned...... > > Jean-louis Naudin Hi Jean-Louis, The RMOG DMEC effect is there. If you can, try reversing one pair of magnet / coil. This will change the thust to a twist. Maybe your bearings can handle that better and reduce losses. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 21:10:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29889; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:03:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:03:44 -0700 Message-ID: <34516F75.20D9EF08 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:33:01 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG-PMOD..DNMEC....Where is the Truth ? References: <971024134412_-124141855 emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZP3Uc3.0.wI7.V-MKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi Greg and ALL, > > Greg Watson wrote on 10/09/1997 17:25:32 > < > Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:22:50 +0930 > Subject: DNMEC Project Status Report > > 1) PMOD ...... Runs in self powering mode. DC power out 78mw. > Working on a 12V 10A unit at present. > The TEP guys are getting warm. This was a typing mistake. The first line belongs to the RMOG. > 2) RMOG ...... Runs in self powering mode. 165 RPM no load. > Have driven a small generator at 100mw. > Working on a 3000 RPM unit with 100w of 50Hz output. > Muller is warm and cold. > >> > =================================== > ---- About the PMOD : > You find bellow some Emails between Stefan Hartmann and Greg Watson > ----------------------------------------- > Suj : Re: PMOD still running ? Specs please. > Date : 14/10/1997 07:17:56 > From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) > > Stefan Hartmann wrote: > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > as you claimed PMOD is already in selfrunning mode, > > Not self powered. The original PMOD experiments date back on and off > over the last 3 years. My final unit consumed (from my notes) 35mw > and put out 78mw. The two voltages were different and the output > still noisy. I used transistors, not mosfets. > > =================================== > ---- About the RMOG : > You find bellow an answer of Greg Watson > ----------------------------------------- > > << > Suj : RMOG Hints > Date : 24/10/1997 17:14:52 > From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) > > Stefan is right, I haven't built this unit yet. Will start this > weekend. It is a VERY simple version of my more complex 6 pole, 5 > stator unit. > > Hope the above quick reply helps. > > -- > Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson > >> > ======================================== > WHERE IS THE TRUTH ?????? > > GREG, WHEN YOU POST A SCHEME OR A DIAGRAM OF A NEW DEVICE, > PLEASE, LET US KNOW IF THIS DEVICE HAS BEEN TESTED BY YOUR-SELF OR NOT, AND > GIVE US DETAILLED RESULTS OF YOUR TEST. > IF THIS IS ONLY AN IDEA OR A SUGGESTION, I ASK YOU TO SAY IT CLEARLY. > THIS WILL AVOID SOME WASTE OF MONEY AND TIME TO ALL OF US. The PMOD and RMOG are not ideas or suggestions. You know that. The basis of the RMOG (old DNMEC) has been discussed over FreeNrg some time back. > THANKS, Hi Jean-Louis, After the passing over of Chris, I started loading my research onto my web site. The info comes from my head, my notes & actual devices. What I am trying to do is to put together simple to duplicate devices, which demonstrate the established underlying principals of operation. None of my devices are what you would call stable. When I get there, is when I go on my world tour. The information on the PMOD and RMOG devices have been on my site for many months. The underlying effects have not changed. Maybe I should just keep ALL this to myself until mass production starts. It that what you want? I can't give you a solid, easy to produce device. Sorry, not there yet. But, I can give you solid underlying principals which explain why these devices work. No bullshit, the underlying principals have been, and can be by others, verified. Producing ACTUAL devices are a little harder, but because you SHOULD have a good understanding of why it works, its just a process of product development. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 21:11:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03056; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:05:47 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710250405.XAA14618 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs In-Reply-To: from Martin Sevior at "Oct 24, 97 11:51:55 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:05:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T6fK3.0.dl.M0NKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior writes: > The checks on Government are far tighter than the constraints on a > monopolistic business. Since various governments in this century have butchered far over 100 million people, your faith in the restrait of government is surely a triumph of hope over experience. Even only counting innocents killed by good old democracies, we are still talking several millions dead -- as compared to the number of people killed by official policy of Standard Oil, Alcoa, Microsoft ... zero! > Look at Microsoft. It threatened to withdraw the Windows 95 license from > Compaque Computers unless they also shipped Internet Explorer! It's an > obvious abuse of market power and an attempt to strangle competition. Yawn. Gee, I'm being brutalized to take free useful software, oh the horror. > Only a Government can prevent that sort of behavour. Actually, only a government allows copyright power. Copyright is a grant of legally protected monopoly. Of all the examples of market power you could draw from, software sales is the most toothless without a government to back it up. > With all this talk of morality, I consider it my moral duty to avoid buying MS > products when at all pratical. It is a strange morality that champions the methods of physical coercion (goverment) over the free market exchange of products and services. I don't really care which software you use, nor your reason for using it, but if you really think that Microsoft products are not winning in the marketplace for legitimate reasons (superior product offering) then I think you are not objective in your analysis. > The beautiful and free OS Linux is gaining momentum (over 3 million > installed worldwide) if it can reach 10% market share, MS will have > an interesting race. Hmm, if free I.E. is anti-competitive, how come free Linux is "beautiful"? At this point I am usually greeted with any combination or all of the following counter-arguments: 1.) If you charge more than the other guys, that's gouging. 2.) If you charge less than the other guys, that's undercutting. 3.) If you charge the same as the other guys, that's collusion. And government is the means to solve all three! -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 21:15:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA32260; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:14:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:14:08 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Eulogy for Chris Tinsley Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:13:32 +0000 Message-ID: <19971025041325.AAB27912 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"YkKB01.0.ut7.F8NKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Eulogy for Christopher P. Tinsley The sentiment was deeply appreciated. I am surprised by how often I think of something he said, or the way he said it. His style was so personable, it was as if I heard his voice reading the words with a charming English accent. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 22:16:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11817; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:12:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:12:04 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34517683.1874 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:33:07 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v-D971.0.Zu2.Y-NKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > This patent [Barker] described a method to accelerate > the decay of alpha emitters. I am very suspicious of anyone who claims to eliminate alpha radiation, simply because alpha radiation is so easy to "hide". The mean free path of a (~ 1MeV) alpha particle in a solid is on the order of a micron, and on the order of a millimeter in air. Thus, most alpha's will not even get through the mica window on typical geiger counters. To see what this means, suppose you had a massive 1 Curie source, i.e. a gram of pure radium. It is decaying at a rate of ~ 10^10 decays a second. Suppose needed at least ~ 100 of these to get into your detector to make a reasonable signal. That means the active portion of the detector must be within about 20 mean free paths of the emission event, i.e. 20 microns for transmission through solids, 2 cm for transmission through are---thus clearly the alpha signal is getting highly attenuated by the transmission through the material sample, the air, and the detector window. This also shows that a geometry change on the order of 1 mm in detector position, or 1 micron in sample configuration, can dramatically effect the signal registered on the detector. > > We took readings by placing tape recorder on top of sphere to > record the clicks. In about 10 months the test fragment was close to > background. The control was still hot and unchanged. > Very neat method. Simple. Works. Well, it works at reducing clicks counted in your setup. You are a long ways from showing that any radiation was remediated. For example, if you ground up both mineral fragments at the end, did they emitt similarly? Any sign that the alpha emitters had plated onto the metal spheres (perhaps via electrostatic attraction)? The proper way to do these experiments would be to count gammas with a gamma ray spectrometer---the gammas are very difficult to hide, and also have energy that characterizes their source. Barring that, at the very least one would have to use special equipment and protocol to count alphas. Your experiment is interesting, but not convincing and is a recipe for potentially getting misleading results. I find it interesting that the patent is for alpha remediation, rather than some more robustly measurable radiation like beta or gamma. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 23:09:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16985; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:04:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:04:30 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710250604.BAA15322 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) In-Reply-To: <34517683.1874 math.ucla.edu> from Barry Merriman at "Oct 24, 97 09:33:07 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:04:22 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GUjeL2.0.J94.jlOKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > I am very suspicious of anyone who claims to eliminate alpha > radiation, simply because alpha radiation is so easy to "hide". Well for our own replication, we are more interested in whether it is easy to lose. So a listing of possibilites would be useful here. (I'm using the imperial "we" since I am not actually doing replication experiments on this.) > This also shows that a geometry change on the order of > 1 mm in detector position, or 1 micron in sample > configuration, can dramatically effect the signal registered > on the detector. So that's the first caution -- watch out for geometry changes as well as "opaque" materials intervening. > For example, if you ground up both mineral fragments at the > end, did they emit similarly? This sounds like a good way to equalize the geometry both before and after, without needing to go to beta or gamma materials. > Any sign that the alpha emitters had plated onto the metal spheres > (perhaps via electrostatic attraction)? An interesting case of room temperature diffusion and transport of a solid, if true! > it interesting that the patent is for alpha remediation, > rather than some more robustly measurable radiation like > beta or gamma. Nonetheles, if you want to investigate the claim, I think you have to investigate the claim, and not some non-claim that happens to be easier to work with. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 24 23:29:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20839; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <345183F6.3D75 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:30:30 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, wireless@rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis wazoo.com, bssimon@helix.ucsd.edu, ine@padrak.com, 100276.261 compuserve.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, davidk@suba.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, droege@fnal.gov, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, storms@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, jac ibms48.scri.fsu.edu, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris acs.tamu.edu, JNaudin@aol.com Subject: First Arata Errata: recombination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W0jhk3.0.P55.b3PKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 25, 1997 Dear all, I have spent two hours reviewing the 56-page report by Yoshiaki Arata and Yue-Chang Zhang, "Solid-State Plasma Fusion," (Received Sept. 5, 1996) Special Issue of the High Temperature Society, Vol. 23, Jan., 1997. I am indebted to Mike Carrel for generously sending me a copy. Four pages describe the apparatus and calorimetry, and are the focus of this critique. Having this week composed a critique on calorimetry of the CETI cell, I find almost the identical situation. No discussion is offered about the issue of recombination, except for the label "closed cell system" and the label "Catalyst" for a large area at the top quarter of the cell interior. The composition, mass, and efficiency of this catalyst are not given. No attempt is made to collect and measure output H2 and O2 to verify the degree of recombination. The electrolyte is .1M LiOH in D2O, volume and flow rate not given. The anode is Pt, shape, size, mass, purity not given. The cathode is Pd, shape, size, mass, purity not given. The cathode is hollow and contains for (a) 3 gm Pd black powder, .2 to .6 micron size, mean .4, about .3 cc, since Pd has density about 10 gm/cc, while (b) has 5 gm, Pd-B, about .5 cc. The method of sealing of the cathode is not described. "It seems that Pc [pressure] inside closed type DS-cathodes will be rising up several thousand [atm] which is estimated from deformation of outside appearance..." This suggest the possibility of leaks, which could generate some of the data spikes. "The data for cathode (a) shows that several hundred [MJ/cm3] of excess energy has been created over several thousand hours using Pd-black 3 [gr], while cathode (b) has generated approximately 50 [MJ] over 800 hours with 5 [gr} of Pd-black. The rate at which the excess energy is being generated is roughly equal for the two, and other samples were also at a similar level." Figure 8(a) shows Cell power (excess energy) over 4750 hours, varying in what may be one-day spikes of about 10 KJ/hr to about one-week spikes of about 30 to a maximum down spike, unexplained, from about 100 to about 20 KJ/hr, at 3600 hours. The average in the last 20% is about 30 KJ/hr. This is the same rate as 30 KW/hr, or 8 W. On the next page, 6, Fig. 6 mentions, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts and "cell-power" is clearly negative with about minus one watt [for a Pt control cathode] as shown in this diagram." So, this control run is given a value on the graph of "~0.7" W, or .8 to .7% of the usual input electrical power. "Clearly negative"! Likewise, 8 W is 7 to 5.5% of the usual input power. Naturally, these kind of percentages are never given in this paper. These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded calorimetry, are meaningless noise, readily achived if the recombiner catalyst is only partially effective. Cathode (b) seems to be about 50 KJ/hr for the last 20% of its 850-day run, about 14 W, giving 12 to 9% of input power, while showing a completely different time history. Two relevant abstracts on recombination are given at the end of this critique, for the benefit of painfully earnest researchers. The random nature of the heat data is indicated in Fig. 6 by the Cell Power for the Pt to Pt control cell, expressed as W out vs W in. There are about 6 values from about 0 to about 1.5 W for zero input power, and for input powers from 20 to about 130 W, the output ranges from -2 to +2 W at each power level. Similar data are not given for the two experimental runs. Fig. 8, Note 2: "Generating pattern of each sample displays significant difference with chronological change. however, each total amount of excess energy included the eight samples used from 1992 to now was almost same." [typos in the original] I will list the information that is needed to be given about the calorimetry, along with pertinent questions: Cell, electrodes, catalyst, heater resistor, reservoir, pump, cooling tube, electrolyte: composition, impurities, shape, size, mass, changes over time, erosion or deposition? Was system visually opaque, operation hidden from view? What was the level of dissolved H2 and O2 in the electrolyte at various times? Did the 120 to 150 W power input cause evaporation or boiling of the electrolyte, and how hot was the cathode? Was high temperature the cause of high pressures in the cathode? Did strong evaporation of the electrolyte create solid deposits in the upper part of the cell, creating electrical shorts or changing the chemistry of the electrolyte? Any evidence of mixing, bubbles, sudden releases of bubbles, temperature spikes, stratification, sudden mixing, leaks, extraneous electrolysis from electric potential leaks at other points in the system, heat inputs from electrode wires, effectiveness of heat insulation, heat leaks from top of cell and from wire leads? Measurements: flow rate, temperatures, voltage, current, current density, resistance, accuracy, fluctuations, long-term drift, exact placement of thermocouples, spikes, electrical interferences, frequency of measurement, detailed graphs for whole history of run, results with control heater resistor, reasons for temperature spikes? The poor quality of the excess energy claims destroys the main thrust of Arata and Zhang's work, that their complex and subtle measurements of He-4 and He-3 show the levels that should exist for the claimed energy production. A critical analysis of those measurements is beyond the scope of my training and experience. However, I am not optimistic. Is it part of the Japanese culture to not effectively criticize research? Have any attempts been made to replicate their work? Here are two abstracts, and a recent essay of mine: "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Faraday Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells," ZS Shkedi, RC McDonald, JJ Breen, SJ Maguire, J Veranth, Bose Corp., Framingham, Massachusetts 01701, "Fusion Technology," Nov., 1995, 28, 1720-1731: Apparent excess heat is observed in light water electrolyic cells containing a variety of nickel cathodes, a platinum anode, and an electrolyte of K2CO3 in H2O. High-accuracy calorimetric measurements show apparent excess heat in the range of 15 to 37 % of input power if a 100% Faraday efficiency is assumed for H2 and O2 gas release. The H2 and O2 gases released during electrolysis are recombined in a vessel external to the cell, and the quantity of recombined H2O is compared with the quantity of H2O expected from 100% efficient electrolysis. The measured Faraday efficiency is shown to be significantly <100%,and conventional chemistry can account for the entire amount of observed apparent excess heat to within a accuracy of better than 0.5%. Notes by Murray: The Jones cells used K2CO3, with currents of 1 to 8 milliamp. The Shkedi cells were run at high current levels of 0.18, 0.35, and 0.6 A. Shkedi: "Because of the high level of interest in heavy water experiments involving the original Fleischmann and Pons configuration, i.e., palladium cathodes in LiOD and D2O electrolytes, a large number of experiments were performed in such cells as well using a large variety of metallurgically different palladium. Twenty eight closed cells and 126 open cells were operated for a total of 1440 and 2760 cell-days, respectively. The heavy water cells were operated at much higher current densities than the light water cells, so the Faraday efficiency should be higher. However, since none of these cells showed any excess heat, no attempts were made to measure the Faraday efficiency." Murray: Little lists 13 claimed positive excess heat results for Ni-light water cells, many by eminent laboratories, but not the above two studies. We see then that a multitude of interesting, convincing positive claims in the cold fusion field may be all invalidated. As my friend Sondra, an acapuncturist, told me tonight at Luby's Cafeteria, "It looks like in science, sometimes you prove you're right, and most of the time you prove you're wrong." I said, "That's real science, for sure!" It is needful to be very cautious indeed in evaluating claims in this field. Shkedi ran four light-water Ni cells at 180 to 600 mA for up to 4 days a run with an average power accuracy of 0.6 mW. All released H2 and O2 were carefully recombined and returned to the cells. Assuming 100 % Faraday efficiency, as did most studies of this reaction, he found apparent excess power of 15 to 37%, reduced to zero when the actual recombination efficiency was factored in. Shkedi also ran, but did not describe in detail, 154 palladium D2O cells, with the same null results. Confirming was a report by JE Jones et all at Brigham Young U., "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100 % during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells," J. Physical Chem., 1995, 99, p. 6973-79. They used low current densities of 1-2 mA/cm2. Other similar studies seemed to find more excess heat with K2CO3 than with Na2CO3. Jones wrote on page 6978: "In agreement with a recent report (20) showing that different electrolytes produce differing bubble sizes in aqueous solution, our experiments show that the difference between NaCO3 and K2CO3 as electrolytes probably is due to differences in interfacial properties of the solutions at the electrodes. The H2 bubbles were smaller when K2CO3 was the electrolyte than when Na2CO3 was the electrolyte in the same cell. Smaller bubbles allow better mobility of gases in the electrolyte and contact between the electrolyte and the electrode surface, thus allowing more frequent reaction of dissolved gases. When detergent was aded to the Na2CO3 electrolyte, the bubbles became much smaller, did not adhere to the electrode, and resulted in about the same rate of apparent excess heat as was observed with the K2CO3 electrolyte." This shows how subtle and unexpected the artifacts can be in these deceptively simple experiments. Sept. 30, 1997 Re Skinner's superstitious pigeons and team scientific folly One of the classics of experimental psychology was by the famed behaviorist at Harvard, B.F. Skinner, who used intermittent positive reinforcement to condition a variety of eccentric behaviors simultaneously in a group of pigeons within a day. He set up a device to randomly toss tasty grain into their pen. If a pigeon happened to be making a left turn when it suddenly found a bit of grain under its beak, its neural net would increase the probability of repeating that behavior, thus setting up a positive feedback cycle of continuing to encounter bits of grain and building up a strong conditioned behavior to continue turning to the left. Intermittent reinforcement is far more effective than continuous reinforcement, because the neural network is trained to accept a certain reinforcement failure rate, so the behavior is difficult to extinguish by reducing or withholding positive reinforcement. So, in Skinner's experiment, the group of pigeons would all end up dancing in bizarre, meaningless patterns-- superstitious behavior. Something like that can happen to a research team. The ingredients are: 1. paradigmitis: the attitude that pretty much anything may be possible, and there is no way to tell what is going on or is of import. 2. data stew: an experimental setup, some kind of finicky kludge with minimal instrumentation that produces fairly random results in a number of simultaneous, somewhat messily related dimensions, such as radiation measurements, complex and varied chemistry, borderline heat excursions, etc., along with impressive high-tech measurement technology that can only safely be used by highly qualified and experienced operators. Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry is ideal, since it can in half an hour transform a few milligrams of crud into over 200 items of data, replete with all kinds of ambiguities and interferences, while being so expensive that crosschecks may not be budgeted. Subtle leaks are often the source of all kinds of dramatric effects: as I sit in front of my magic mirror writing this, even now the shades of the Challenger crew are starting to appear, whispering beseechingly, "Never, ever, trust an O-ring seal..." 3: A small team of really nice guys: who spend years together fooling around with their kludge, making a nice enough living, trying all kinds of things, and gradually finding procedures that often enough produce interesting and mystifying results, which may seem to start to confirm a shared mindset and tentative theory. They are for years always on the brink of a definitive experimental and theoretical breakthrough. Peering myoptically at realms of meaningless data and random outcomes, they become blind to the obvious and alert to the obscure. They start to select from this plethora of information the tidbits that seem to substantiate their story, and they invariably present these curiously isolated items to the wider community in a characteristicly modest, diffident, almost plaintive way, seeking support, politely uninterested in skeptical criticism, making motions of criticing and cross-checking their own story. If the prospects of fame and fortune become vivid, then the result of this truly powerful, highly intermittent positive reinforcement is a striking intensification of the scientific superstition process. Commercially justified secrecy becomes an inpenetrable barrier to scientific discourse with the wider community. Typically, the victims tend to abort this tragic cycle by seemingly overconfident release of confused data and even experimental kits, and by putting out reports that are full of multitudinous typos and loose ends. This process of team scientific superstition describes CETI, Blacklight Power, and the Cincinnati Group. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 01:34:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29301; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3451AE31.431693C7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:00:41 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG 25/10 update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"15TD01.0.g97.FvQKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have updated the RMOG page with more technical info. Timing, circuit, spacing, etc. Just use the update link on the home page to get there Quick. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 01:37:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29694; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:35:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3451AF20.DA18E640 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:04:40 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG under construction References: <199710250703.AAA15633 germany.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WOh-B1.0.mF7.2zQKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dave Dameron wrote: > > Hi Greg, > At 12:50 PM 10/25/97 +0930, you wrote: > > >When winding the coils, you MUST ensure that NO ferrite extends into > >the gap. Any extruding of the ferrite rod past the coil windings into > >the air gap will reduce the amount of flux distorting. Its the flux > >distorting that make this effect work. The coil windings and the end > >of the ferrite rod must be in line. I use a end piece lightly glued > >into place to form the windings, use Super Glue to bond the wires > >together and then remove the end piece. > > > Thanks for this information. > I will rewind my coils and do more tests. The ones I have were wound on > forms, so that the ferrite sticks out ~1mm from the actual end of the wire > turns. This looks like yours, too Jean-Louis. > > Is there a preferred polarity of the magnets, i.e both the same pole facing > the flux gap, or a N and S pole, which would have a higher flux? I tried > both, each > with the coil connections both ways, and could not tell a significant change > with the "correct" coil phasing. (1 reversed with 1 pole reversed) I will > test both with new coils. The magnets MUST assist flux flow through the circuit. One should have a N face in the gap and the other should have a S face in the gap. > I will be interested in your alternate version results with 1 coil and 1 > magnet on each side of the flux gate disk. > -Dave Hi Dave, Thanks for the input. More info on my RMOG page now. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 01:47:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00954; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3451B19B.63EB094D microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:15 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Re : Re: RMOG V1.1 - Technical specs. References: <94eed632.3451a4dd aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eMoGP3.0.jE.w6RKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 wrote: > > On 25/10/1997 00:16:20 , Dave Dameron wrote : > > << Can you please tell me the diameter of the wire in your coils? > #18 AWG wire, at 1.08mm diameter, is TOO large to fit into a coil <20mm > long, and I quess <20 mm > outer diameter of the windings. Only about 50 turns will fit! I used wire > #30 AWG which is about 1/4 mm diameter. Do you say 2.5/10mm for this size? > I measured 5 Ohms for 500 turns, and my coils look about the same size as > yours. I use 0.25mm wire. > Hi Dave, > > OOUPPS, this is a typing error, sorry, I have used #38 AWG ( 0.1mm diam ), as > you can see in the detailled picture in my web. I have used all copper wire > from a 12V/30A relay commonly used in all cars. This is easy, by this way you > have just to unwound the wire from the relay and wound directly this wire on > the RMOG's Coils. > Also I have corrected this typing error in my web site. Thanks for your > comments. > > Don't forget that the ennemy of the RMOG device is the mechanical friction, I > have used a special lubricant for the needle bearing and the shaft. Another > important thing is that the gap between coil/gate must be less than the gap > between gate/magnet. > Good news, my ILS switch is not dead, after one night of running in..... :-) Your needle bearings are MUCH better in handling a side ways torque load than a thrust load. Really suggest you move to the alternative set-up using the flipped magnet / coil set-up. > Sincerely, > > Jean-Louis Hi Jean-Louis, The idea of using a snubber (diode) across the coil is a BAD idea. The diode WILL stop large back Emf voltage kicks, but it will ALSO extend the length of time the coil's magnetic field is active / current flows and actually cause a repelling force on the inward progress of the ferrite flux gate. The idea of running as a motor is as a test and to assist spinning up to speed. Any coil / Emf snubber will destroy the timing. Sorry. Been there, done that. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 03:47:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA12211; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:43:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:43:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3451CD41.F32B8F44 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:13:13 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD 24/10 References: <3.0.1.32.19971025024417.00bbad1c palacenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ASCKz2.0.f-2.YrSKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack DeMule wrote: > > Hi All.... > > At 09:25 10/25/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote: > >Here I confirm that the domain avalanche resonance frequency is > >related to the physical length of the rod. I also show that a centred > >rod generated the greatest signal. > > Please see my blab regarding...Magnetic Core > Dimensional Resonance Effects. Which was posted > Wed, 15 Oct 1997. Considering this new data, > is it possibly what you are seeing? > > Best Regards, > > JD Hi Jack, Seems to tie in. Can you post the entire article or link address if online? -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 05:33:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA12782; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:26:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) In-Reply-To: <34517683.1874 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"v-XMs1.0.e73.6QUKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Barry and Vo., I am reporting what we saw. We did this on zero money. The GM counter was in the large sphere, with the mineral fragment at all times. The whole point of this was to put everything in place, source, counter and close the sphere and not open of more them. If you can figure out a way in a closed container, with everyting fixed not mover for the duration we get X arbitrary counts on dat 2 and almost no counts 9 months later.... let me know how to do it differently on a low budget ... or what is fundamentally wrong with the method. I do not think our work can be said to simply do anything. Our counter is a lab mineral counter and not a great alpha detector. Not here to do the back and forth... just report. It is very easy to do. Try it. J On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Barry Merriman wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > This patent [Barker] described a method to accelerate > > the decay of alpha emitters. > > I am very suspicious of anyone who claims to eliminate alpha > radiation, simply because alpha radiation is so easy to "hide". > The mean free path of a (~ 1MeV) alpha particle in a solid > is on the order of a micron, and on the order of a millimeter > in air. Thus, most alpha's will not even get through the > mica window on typical geiger counters. > > To see what this > means, suppose you had a massive 1 Curie source, i.e. > a gram of pure radium. It is decaying at a rate of ~ 10^10 > decays a second. Suppose needed at least ~ 100 of these > to get into your detector to make a reasonable signal. > That means the active portion of the detector must be within about > 20 mean free paths of the emission event, i.e. 20 microns > for transmission through solids, 2 cm for transmission through > are---thus clearly the alpha signal is getting highly attenuated > by the transmission through the material sample, the air, > and the detector window. > > This also shows that a geometry change on the order of > 1 mm in detector position, or 1 micron in sample > configuration, can dramatically effect the signal registered > on the detector. > > > > > We took readings by placing tape recorder on top of sphere to > > record the clicks. In about 10 months the test fragment was close to > > background. The control was still hot and unchanged. > > Very neat method. Simple. Works. > > Well, it works at reducing clicks counted in your setup. You > are a long ways from showing that any radiation was remediated. > For example, if you ground up both mineral fragments at the > end, did they emitt similarly? Any sign that the alpha emitters > had plated onto the metal spheres (perhaps via electrostatic > attraction)? > > The proper way to do these experiments would be to count > gammas with a gamma ray spectrometer---the gammas are very > difficult to hide, and also have energy that characterizes their > source. Barring that, at the very least one would have to > use special equipment and protocol to count alphas. > > Your experiment is interesting, but not convincing and is a > recipe for potentially getting misleading results. I find > it interesting that the patent is for alpha remediation, > rather than some more robustly measurable radiation like > beta or gamma. > > > -- > Barry Merriman > Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program > Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math > email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 05:43:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA20907; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:39:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 05:39:54 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Tree fields .. item Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cli0b1.0.b65.PYUKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I will not go back and forth about what something can or can not owrk that we witnessed. Please try it. Two items were mentioned. Change in dimension and geometry and ease of blocking, losing or hiding alpha. 1] We did not move, add or remove anything. 2] I do not think our counter is a very good alpha detector but is better broad detector. I will get details on detector. Try it yourself with good help. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 06:31:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17078; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971025092746_1790242889 mrin43.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"xPo5A1.0.hA4.mFVKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Why bother with a closed electrolytic cell? If you're going to adopt Farrell's tips, why not use an open cell, which was the kind of K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell that Farrell was recommending in the days when he still participated in SPF? If memory serves, he was telling people that it was much harder to make a closed cell of that type work. If you can produce more heat power out of the cell than total, raw, uncorrected electrical power going into the cell, then recombination ceases to be an issue. The skepticism surrounding this field is so intense that there isn't much point in aiming for less. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 06:31:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA26562; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:28:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:28:26 -0700 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971025092750_1723545417 mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Mole Day Resent-Message-ID: <"NTem82.0.yU6.uFVKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We forgot to celebrate Mole Day! A high school science teacher in Michigan has founded an organization to promote the awareness of science, especially chemistry, by declaring October 23 to be Mole Day. October 23, or 10/23, was chosen because there are 6.02 X 10E23 molecules in a mole of substance. There was a radio news item about Mole Day. A molecule was defined by reference to the term's Latin root, which means "little pile of stuff." Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 07:38:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02676; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:35:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:35:09 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:34:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710251434.JAA22473 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Resent-Message-ID: <"PXLd.0.df.REWKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:27 AM 10/25/97 -0400, Tom S wrote: >Scott, > >Why bother with a closed electrolytic cell? If you're going to adopt >Farrell's tips, why not use an open cell, which was the kind of K2CO3-H2O-Ni >cell that Farrell was recommending in the days when he still participated in >SPF? If memory serves, he was telling people that it was much harder to make >a closed cell of that type work. Well....Good Suggestion, Tom! In recent years I've always used the recombiner pellets on all my CF cells because it just made the experiment "cleaner" to have everything sealed up. However, if it might make a difference, I'm more than willing to try it. Right now I'm stuck trying to figure out how to get sufficient cathode surface area in my 100 mL beaker cell so that I can get 2 watts of Pin and still satisfy the 1 mA/cm^2 current density requirement. If the cell voltage is 2.5 volts, I'll need ~700 cm^2 of cathode!! I doubt if Ni Fibrex is really a kosher approach since much of its surface area is 'within' the mat and thus would not be exposed to the electric fields during electrolysis. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 07:39:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02653; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:35:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:35:05 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:34:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710251434.JAA22469 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"iThVl2.0.Ff.NEWKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:30 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Rich Murray wrote: >Fig. 6 mentions, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts >and "cell-power" is clearly negative with about minus one watt [for a Pt >control cathode] as shown in this diagram." So, this control run is >given a value on the graph of "~0.7" W, or .8 to .7% of the usual input >electrical power. "Clearly negative"! Likewise, 8 W is 7 to 5.5% of the >usual input power. Naturally, these kind of percentages are never given >in this paper. > These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded >calorimetry, are meaningless noise.... I agree that these percentages are awfully small to be taking seriously unless they have gone to extreme measures in their calorimetry. >...readily achived if the recombiner catalyst is only partially effective. Wait a minute, Rich. Since they have a recombiner in the cell, they would be assuming that all gases are recombined and thus they would take the input power to be simply V*I and they would not be making any corrections for the fuel value of escaping H2 & O2. If the recombiner did not work completely, the ONLY direction the Pout/Pin ratio could go is DOWN. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 07:39:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02630; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:35:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:35:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:34:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710251434.JAA22464 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Resent-Message-ID: <"_xxSV1.0.xe.LEWKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:33 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: >I am very suspicious of anyone who claims to eliminate alpha >radiation, simply because alpha radiation is so easy to "hide". >The proper way to do these experiments would be to count >gammas with a gamma ray spectrometer--- An idea isotope for such an experiment is Am-241, available in most smoke detectors in 1 microCurie quantity. It is an alpha emitter with a 450 yr half-life but the decay product nucleus ends up in an excited state which results in the emission of a 60 keV gamma about 30% of the time. This is a nice gamma energy to work with. A small NaI xtal will be 100% efficient to such gammas and a typical Al encapsulation for such a xtal will be almost 100% transparent to them. A good while back we purchased a small Van de Graff generator and performed an extensive Barker-style experiment on a smoke detector source. We also kept a second source away from the Van de Graff as a control for our NaI counting system. Even after many days of "treatment" in the Van de Graff, there was no change in activity of the source. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 08:08:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07385; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:02:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:02:59 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Fw: Mole Day Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:00:50 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce156$c8dd13a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"e3ON72.0.Jp1.YeWKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Tstolper aol.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 7:30 AM Subject: Mole Day >We forgot to celebrate Mole Day! > >A high school science teacher in Michigan has founded an organization to >promote the awareness of science, especially chemistry, by declaring October >23 to be Mole Day. October 23, or 10/23, was chosen because there are 6.02 X >10E23 molecules in a mole of substance. > >There was a radio news item about Mole Day. A molecule was defined by >reference to the term's Latin root, which means "little pile of stuff." There were three little moles going down a tunnel into their den after their mother had called them to breakfast. The first said, " I smell eggs!" The second said ,"I smell pancakes!" The third said,"I smell molasses!" :-) Regards, Frederick > >Tom Stolper > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 08:31:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11518; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:27:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:27:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971025112655.006bbe8c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:26:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) In-Reply-To: <199710251434.JAA22464 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NMqlk1.0.op2.o_WKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:34 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Scott Little: >At 09:33 PM 10/24/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote: > >>I am very suspicious of anyone who claims to eliminate alpha >>radiation, simply because alpha radiation is so easy to "hide". > >>The proper way to do these experiments would be to count >>gammas with a gamma ray spectrometer--- > >An idea isotope for such an experiment is Am-241, available in most smoke >detectors in 1 microCurie quantity. It is an alpha emitter with a 450 yr >half-life but the decay product nucleus ends up in an excited state which >results in the emission of a 60 keV gamma about 30% of the time. This is a >nice gamma energy to work with. A small NaI xtal will be 100% efficient to >such gammas and a typical Al encapsulation for such a xtal will be almost >100% transparent to them. > >A good while back we purchased a small Van de Graff generator and performed >an extensive Barker-style experiment on a smoke detector source. We also >kept a second source away from the Van de Graff as a control for our NaI >counting system. Even after many days of "treatment" in the Van de Graff, >there was no change in activity of the source. > > Did you say you put them IN(SIDE) the Van de Graff spherical head? Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 08:32:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11859; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:28:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:28:35 -0700 Message-ID: <34520337.27CA earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:33:27 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, ceti msn.com, mizuno@athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, design73@aol.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, droege@fnal.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris acs.tamu.edu Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination References: <199710251434.JAA22469 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"COoDH1.0.3v2.W0XKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little, you are right about my mistake-- any inefficiency in the catalytic recombiner will produce lower apparent output power. So, as yet, we have no obvious explanation for the persistent minor excess power. However, the calorimetry does not, as you agree, have enough accuracy to make this a compelling problem. Do Arata and Zhang present more complete calorimetry data in their other English language papers, and, if so, could Mike Carrel or someone mail me those? What do you think of my idea that one artifact might result from additional electrical potential leaks in the electrolyte, building up a level of dissolved H2 and O2 that would then generate apparent excess heat by reacting with the recombiner catalyst in the cell? Would the level of dissolved H2 and O2 depend on electrolyte temperature? How much apparent excess heat could be generated at various flow rates? Has anyone ever heard about this artifact? Thank you, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 08:54:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15988; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:50:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:50:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710251550.KAA26905 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Resent-Message-ID: <"6_39Q3.0.jv3.XLXKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:26 AM 10/25/97 +0000, Mitchell wrote: > Did you say you put them IN(SIDE) the Van de Graff spherical head? Yes, such is the teaching of Barker. Curious isn't it, since inside the sphere there is no electric field. Apparently Barker thinks that raising the 'voltage' of the specimen is what does it. Even that doesn't make much sense since voltage is a relative thing. How does the specimen know it is inside a charged VdG sphere? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 09:03:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05038; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710251600.LAA27534 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"WlZZr1.0.dE1.BUXKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:33 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Rich Murray wrote: >Scott Little, you are right about my mistake-- >What do you think of my idea that one artifact might result from >additional electrical potential leaks in the electrolyte, building up a >level of dissolved H2 and O2... I doubt if the solubility of H2 & O2 in the electrolyte, especially in hot electrolyte, is sufficient to store up any significant amount of caloric value. Back to the Arata paper: what is the biggest Pout/Pin ratio they report? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 09:06:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17762; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:03:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:03:39 -0700 Message-ID: <34520B3B.2B0B earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:07:39 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, storms ix.netcom.com, ceti@msn.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless@rmii.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, design73@aol.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, biberian@crmc2.univ.mrs.fr, reeber aro-emh1.army.mil, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris acs.tamu.edu Subject: [Fwd: Bockris: common impurities] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6D0DEF81B91" Resent-Message-ID: <"LjRUH2.0.NL4.PXXKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6D0DEF81B91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit October 25, 1997 John Bockris, I am happy to forward your experienced, gentle comments, full of valuable details, to many scientists in the cold fusion field. I hope my critical efforts, grounded in the reported details of many reports, will help the players accept an atmosphere of vigorous, frank, playful criticism, that will vastly improve the efficiency and clarity of the shared process of exploration. I am dissappointed that I haven't yet found a completely convincing report of a cold fusion experiment, although so far, Claytor's production of tritium seems the strongest, in that the detection of that radioactivity seems so straightforward and incontrovertible. I am very interested in the Chubb theory, and wonder how much criticism and support it has received, and from whom. Thank you, Rich Murray --------------6D0DEF81B91 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02708 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vogmudet (1Cust104.max2.albuquerque.nm.ms.uu.net [153.34.14.104]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11288 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3451356A.49FE earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:55:22 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net Subject: Bockris: common impurities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit JOHN O'M. BOCKRIS 4973 AFTON OAKS DRIVE COLLEGE STATION, TX 77845 Phone/Fax: 409/776-6139 email: bockris acs.tamu.edu October 24, 1997 TO: Rich Murray FROM: John Bockris Re many of your heroic attacks on some of the people in the Low Energy Nuclear Reaction field, I would like to say a few words from personal experience, which may help you and those who listen to you. Firstly, I think you might agree with me that, in consideration of an uncertain matter, very much depends on attitude and the "feeling" of the surrounding paradigm. I had experience before WWII of intellectual university professors who were Nazis. It won't surprise you that a quiet and thoughtful mention of contributions made by Jewish people to Science brought only an avalanche of destructive counter comment. After WWII, I was often in Moscow, talking to very intelligent and productive Communists. Although more rational and less loud mouthed than the Nazis, they made me well aware of their fixed idea that profit was an immiral concept. They solemnly informed that American capitalists charged more than the goods had cost the manufacturer! I have had experience of modern theologians, too, and, earlier of jingo Englishmen. Exposure to the word "rational" or quiet appraisal was something the very idea of which would make both of these types blanche "Lack of Faith", "Disloyal Bastard". What has all this got to do with your diatribes? Well, I leave it to you to feel whether you perhaps think that the emotional nature of your attacks, the fact that you find nothing good in anyof it, - has a message about you yourself. I have done 53 years of published physical chemistry and had around 700 papers accepted. One of the lessons learned is that science is a 90% game. 90% because nothing is certain in Science; and game because, on the theoretical side, all is temporary, a theory is good if it is accepted 10 years and the number which lasts 100 - well you name one (Maxwell's Laws perhaps, - but there is controversy now about a missing magnetic component). A 90% game. But there is another thing I learned and that is all about the baby and the bath water. Really new scientific results are pretty rare. One has to cosset them, praise them, fan them into life. There is no chance they will live long if they are false, - however much you love them. Low energy nuclear reaction is a case in point. You'd have to admit that acceptance would be paradigm shifting in the extreme. Tens of thousands of jobs. Billions of dollars and ribald laughter reaching the Congo. To admit it could be right would be a national disaster for the coterie round a magazine such as Science or Nature. So, now, having said that I believe that softly, softly is the way to get to the New, and also that I am never quite sure of anything except perhaps the 1st and 2nd Law of thermodynamics, allow me to give one more preliminary, before I suggest a few gentle and tentative answers to a few of your combattive rushes. There is a whole lot of difference between hearing and reading about a phenomenon and finding it. Yes, I was the Professor and no I didn't do the work, except for the first few days on transmutation. But I've been in the lab a hundred times, I've seen the faces glow and I've examined the notebooks, the cells, the electrodes, the solutions. I've seen the graphs 5 minutes after they were drawn. It makes a colossal difference. I don't have to count up the pluses and minuses of tritium. I've taken the samples from the cells, I've put them in the scintillator, I've calculated the results. So, here are a few (tentative, gentle) answers. Contamination from the air and He: My experience with He4 is second hand. We gave maybe 20 samples to the people at N. American (Nate Hoffman and Co.). Some of them had never been in a cell at all; some had been electrolyzed for a day and some three weeks. The results were that the ones which had lain in the drawer only had in them 109 atoms of He/cc; the three weeks electrolzyed 1011 atoms per cc. I don't believe there is much problem there. They were all extremely "contaminated" before we started. But .... Is it difficult to get out of the metal? Yes, it is. I had several talks with the people who did this demanding work with a special mass spectrograph. They use indective heat and melt the Pd. That was their whole and only job. I guess that, at that stage you have to trust them. Recombination. The idea of heat coming from recombination was a common thought in 1989 and I recall some German scientists at a meeting becoming more irate than you seem to me. At Texas A&M in winter of '89 we did 3 measurements of how much water came out of recombining D2 and O2. We got, - as I remember, - 100 ñ 2% of theoretical. We also tried pulling the electrode out of the solution a little, - to tempt the recombination reaction, - and really expected to find signs. Nothing. Fritz Will has a paper just published in which he gives detailed calculation (about 7 pages) and there, - in his view, - disprove Jones' idea. I think the best proofs are the horrible irreproducibility of the effect and that there have been multiple claims, since 1990, of humongous heat bursts which would be many times more than the maximum obtainable from recombination (56 kcal/mole of H2. SIMS is unreliable. I've used SIMS quite a bit but always with someone else handling the equipment. You certainly have to be knowledgeable about the corrections. I think that one of the strengths of Miley's work is that he used the excellent equipment available to him to do 2 or 3 methods which, - with their ñ's, - agreed. Impurities from cell walls. Long, long ago, not long after my Ph.D. in London, in the 1940's, I had 3-4 years in which we concentrated on just the matters you talk about here. We ended our search by long term (36 hours) cleaning procedures for glass vessels, including prolonged steaming. We used a special glass which had no arsenic. The SiO4-- is inocuous stuff. It is a negative ion and I suspect it doesn't deposit Faradaically though it does adsorb. Fe? I have no reaction to it, no knowledge in this context. Pt definitely dissolves and redeposits on Pd. We used Ni and NiO2 anodes for that reason. Some electrochemists use teflon as a cell material though there, too, extensive boiling in HNO3 and NaOH successively is desirable to remove surface gunk. Re your thought that there is so much transmutation. You know, electrochemists long ago (1990?) published simple equations showing how much stuff could get onto an electrode after time t and at potential V, etc. I made a private analysis of Miley's situation at an early stage. But there is a simple qualitative test. It is easy to use ICP on the solution. This gives you the impurities down to parts per billion. Suppose you find, X,Y,Z, A B and C. Well, surely, they are the ions you find on the electrode (and you do, in abundance). It is when you find quite different ions or atoms inside (1-10æ deep) that you have to ask, - from where they came, - not the solution. Finding a large amount of carbon. We have frequently found that, too. Everyone does, particularly in Auger. I think it is from dissolved CO2 from air. A word about Mizuno. I know Mizuno well, - he was a post doc with me in 1986, working on radiotracer examination of passive films. I could write a lot about Mizuno. He's an unusual Japanese, , 6 ft 2" tall, etc. But the main thing about him is caution. If Mizuno had a result, X, with a lower limit of Y, he'd just publish the Y. Enyo was my graduate student and a rock-like fellow, now the President of a University! Omori I know only from the meetings but Reiko Notoya I have known largely correspondence and mutual visits for 25 years in respect to her electrochemical and catalytic work. So, I hope, Rich, that these remarks from above the frey (I retired June 30) may pour oil and etc. LENR is a strange and wild field. Without you, it has enormous difficulties in growth and staying alive in an environment which is full of fear. --------------6D0DEF81B91-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 09:10:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06083; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:01:51 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Barker Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"IYAtX2.0.oU1.YaXKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: a] everything is in the large sphere. b] the sphere was closed off and nothing was chnaged or moved c] read the patent Note: The sample is RIGHT NEXT TO AND ON THE EDGE of a hole if the sphere. The sample is NOT inside a closed shielded shell. If the wall thickness is 1/32 of an inch.... and there is a hole ... about 5/8" in our case... and the voltage is 40 KV there is a heck a gradient over the distance of 1/32 of an inch. This is where the sample is. Get it? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 09:19:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20085; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:13:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:13:38 -0700 Message-ID: <34520DCE.5466 earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:18:38 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination References: <199710251600.LAA27534 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F5x2O.0.lv4.mgXKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little, Arata's Fig. 8 shows a jagged rise from 2000 to 3500 hours from about 20 to about 90 kJ/hr excess energy for the 3 gm Pd-Black cathode, then a steep fall to about 20. The graph for the 5 gram cathode has a steep jump at 200 hours from 20 to 75, and at about 500 hours peaks at about 80 kJ/hr. Fig. 6: "Our usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts...[electrical input power]". Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 09:19:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19997; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:12:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:12:53 -0700 Message-ID: <34521A49.88BC7FAF microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:41:53 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG Very Early 26/10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Aywiv2.0.Mu4.4gXKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, More RMOG info is up. More timing info showing flux gate positional relationships to flux density, induced coil Emf and coil short / open. Also you will find a drawing of what a commercial RMOG would be like. Almost the same the design I released over FreeNrg about a year ago. There is info on how to determine how many turns you need on those coils to move into self power mode. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 10:31:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA32249; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:27:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:27:31 -0700 Message-ID: <34522BDC.DAF24CEB microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:56:52 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG Very Early 26/10 References: <199710251644.LAA07894 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QRjg92.0.Kt7.0mYKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > > Greg wrote: > > > >HI All, > > > >More RMOG info is up. . . . > > snip > > >There is info on how to determine how many turns you need on those > >coils to move into self power mode. > > > >-- > >Best Regards, > > 10/26/97 > > Mr. Watson, > > Obviously, if you provide RMOG information "to move into self power > mode", you have built one. Please provide the data from your testing. As I have stated, I am building a unit from the published plans now. The design is based on my DNMEC research (from actual units) which have been discussed here for over a year. > Or, are these more "vapor" ideas, unsubstantiated and untested? I have NEVER presented like that. Does the quality of the data I present really sound like vapor ware? > Only hard test data will offer any proof of support. No more excuses > of how it's to be only in the future will suffice. Your time has > arrived. Glad to see you have appointed yourself my judge. What have you done to earn this position? > Caution. As you proclaim these incredulous ideas, our credulity is > severely strained without proper testing and outside replication of > your claims. Where is it? My data has been presented step by step, Each step is related to existing physics. Tried the 2 magnets and ferrite test yet? > Your credibility is on the line and in serious jeopardy. As if I need you to tell me that. > Sincerely, > > RWW Thanks for the positive input. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 10:40:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02725; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:38:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:38:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971025133812.006b44ac world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:38:12 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) In-Reply-To: <199710251550.KAA26905 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"EkBly2.0.Ig.nwYKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:50 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >At 11:26 AM 10/25/97 +0000, Mitchell wrote: > >> Did you say you put them IN(SIDE) the Van de Graff spherical head? > >Yes, such is the teaching of Barker. Curious isn't it, since inside the >sphere there is no electric field. Apparently Barker thinks that raising >the 'voltage' of the specimen is what does it. Even that doesn't make much >sense since voltage is a relative thing. How does the specimen know it is >inside a charged VdG sphere? The post almost left me to spill my coffee from laughter onto the keyboard because there is no electric field intensity inside a Faraday cage. Hadnt had as good a laugh since some lab tested US 5 cent coins in a "cold fusion experiment" and then reported the results as purportedly nickel (the US "nickel" is made of copper). Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 10:42:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17956; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971025133559.006b57fc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:35:59 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination Cc: blue pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, rbrtbass pahrump.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, ceti@msn.com, mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, design73@aol.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, droege@fnal.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris acs.tamu.edu In-Reply-To: <34520337.27CA earthlink.net> References: <199710251434.JAA22469 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MDgya.0.TO4.GwYKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:33 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Rich Murray wrote: >Scott Little, you are right about my mistake-- any inefficiency in the >catalytic recombiner will produce lower apparent output power. So, as >yet, we have no obvious explanation for the persistent minor excess >power. However, the calorimetry does not, as you agree, have enough >accuracy to make this a compelling problem. Do Arata and Zhang present >more complete calorimetry data in their other English language papers, >and, if so, could Mike Carrel or someone mail me those? > >What do you think of my idea that one artifact might result from >additional electrical potential leaks in the electrolyte, building up a >level of dissolved H2 and O2 that would then generate apparent excess >heat by reacting with the recombiner catalyst in the cell? Would the >level of dissolved H2 and O2 depend on electrolyte temperature? How >much apparent excess heat could be generated at various flow rates? Has >anyone ever heard about this artifact? To derive ones own answers to these questions, one might look up the solubility of those gases, and then calculate the maximum amount of possible energy which could be actually stored by that route based upon standard thermodynamic calculation. Yes. Wrong parameter, and seems not relevant to the matter in discussion except for additional mass and heat transfer. Yes. Discussed on s.p.f., and elsewhere. Hope that helps. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 11:13:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07627; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:08:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:08:49 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:03:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Addendum Personal communication from Barker Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Gb-YG1.0.5t1.mMZKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., In my search into the Barker work I talked with one of the Barkers. The placement of the test sample in an area of very high gradient is the result of personal communication. There is only one drawing in the patent which shows a little of this. Barker and his brother worked for a couple of years with partial funding and this helped to define this a little bit. Most patent do not reveal the complete work and no written document can show what was learned later. You can discount this or try it. I tried it and was glad I did. a] everything is in the large sphere. b] the sphere was closed off and nothing was chnaged or moved c] read the patent Note: The sample is RIGHT NEXT TO AND ON THE EDGE of a hole in the sphere. ***The sample is NOT inside a closed shielded shell. *** If the wall thickness is 1/32 of an inch.... and there is a hole ... about 5/8" in our case... and the voltage is 40 KV there is a heck a gradient over the distance of 1/32 of an inch. This is where the sample is. Get it? Addendum: The sample is wrapped in polyethylene, a dielectric. I do not think this method would work if the sample was in a metal wrapper. Apologies if this was not made clear the first go round. To M. Schwartz : Yes it would seem wrong to expect the effect to obtain in a Faraday cage. The work is not and was not done under these conditions. It pays to talk to the inventor or whoever is doing the work, in my opinion this is true in nearly every case. Always helps to ask. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 11:26:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12654; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:24:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:24:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971025142347.006b9cc8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:23:47 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Addendum Personal communication from Barker In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AYmRF2.0.d53.ZbZKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:03 PM 10/25/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: > > Note: The sample is RIGHT NEXT TO AND ON THE EDGE of a hole in >the sphere. > > ***The sample is NOT inside a closed shielded shell. *** > > If the wall thickness is 1/32 of an inch.... and there is a hole >... about 5/8" in our case... and the voltage is 40 KV there is a heck a >gradient over the distance of 1/32 of an inch. This is where the sample >is. Get it? > > Addendum: The sample is wrapped in polyethylene, a dielectric. >I do not think this method would work if the sample was in a metal >wrapper. > Thank you for the clarification, which should lead to more serious investigation of this thanks to you. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 13:59:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13128; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:56:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19971024.190237.3310.0.Jahuti juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:53:05 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Open questions Tree and earth Resent-Message-ID: <"xMiRX1.0.2D3.opbKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Regarding electrical signals in connection with earthquakes and so forth, there is a list on the net devoted to these pursuits. Several amateurs calling themselves the ELFRAD group have set up detectors in different parts of the world. Sometimes they post traces of the signals they get surrounding events. The recent signal bursts in the former Soviet Union which gave rise to rumors of an unauthorized underground test were seen by this group, and it appeared on their recordings that it was of natural origin. They seem to be pretty good at predicting large quakes around the world, and also seem to be able to see some of the phunny stuff arising due to HAARP. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 16:02:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28892; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:58:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:58:32 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3452798B.11A1 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:58:19 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) References: <199710251434.JAA22464 natasha.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FpGEp3.0.A37.LcdKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > A good while back we purchased a small Van de Graff generator and performed > an extensive Barker-style experiment on a smoke detector source. We also > kept a second source away from the Van de Graff as a control for our NaI > counting system. Even after many days of "treatment" in the Van de Graff, > there was no change in activity of the source. > Heresy Scott---JS assured us that they got great results with no budget and a mere undergrad doing the work. Perhaps JS should drop by EarthTech and show you how to do it right... -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 11:11:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA27706; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 20:05:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lepton number not conserved??? In-Reply-To: <19971005.064306.3182.11.fsparber juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Jl-j11.0.om6.OSzDq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > > On Sun, 5 Oct 1997 14:23:08 +0200 (MET DST) Martin Sevior > writes: > > > > > >On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Frederick J Sparber wrote: > > > >> Okay, Martin. If you allow that the neutrino is a bound > >> pair of particles with mass (albeit small) with one of > >> them having a "moment of inertia" of 1/2 MR^2 and the other with > >"moment > >> of inertia" MR^2, then the net spin > >> is 1/2 and the net charge is zero. :-) > >> I didn't catch this the first time. Two 1/2 integral spin particles will always combine to give an integral spin particle. It is a fundamental feature of Quantum Mechanics. > > I think not, Martin. The net "nuclear" magnetic moment of a bound pair > would not be measureable if the energies are the same? > Nothing ever cancels exactly. The residual would probably be several orders of magnitude above the upper limit on the neutrino magnetic moment. I don't have the time to verify this with a proper calculation though. > > > >Other problems arise from extensive very high energy neutrino > >scattering data > >that show neutrinos have no substructure on a scale of at least > >10**-17 m. An > >electromagnetically bound l+l- pair would have a size comparable to a > >H atom. > >About 10**-10 m MUCH larger! > > No. The "radius" kq^2/W where W is the rest energy would put the size of > a neutrino of 0.5 ev "at rest" at about > 2.9E-9 meters! A big fellow. :-) > But that is the problem! The "size" of neutrinos have been measured to be 8 orders of magnitude smaller. The binding energy of the l+l- pair would be at most a few ev. Neutrinos of 100's GeV are regularly used to explode nuclei.(we do it every 14 seconds in our experiemnt here at CERN). Your weakly bound l+l- pair could not possibly do that. I'm sorry Fred, l+l- pairs won't work as neutrinos. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 17:01:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06849; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:55:57 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce1a1$89eb1340$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"3OtmE3.0.xg1.GUeKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Barry Merriman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, October 25, 1997 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Barry Merriman wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> > >> A good while back we purchased a small Van de Graff generator and performed >> an extensive Barker-style experiment on a smoke detector source. We also >> kept a second source away from the Van de Graff as a control for our NaI >> counting system. Even after many days of "treatment" in the Van de Graff, >> there was no change in activity of the source. >> > >Heresy Scott---JS assured us that they got great results >with no budget and a mere undergrad doing the work. Perhaps >JS should drop by EarthTech and show you how to do it right... Enough to make your hair "stand on end" though, ain't it? :-) Regards, Frederick > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 17:10:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07984; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:07:58 -0700 (PDT) From: alansch zip.com.au (Alan Schneider) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:07:50 GMT Message-ID: <345289bf.3955259 mail.zip.com.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA07965 Resent-Message-ID: <"ho9BX3.0.gy1.RdeKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:27:52 -0700, "R. Wormus" wrote: _>On 24-Oct-97, Martin Sevior wrote: _> _> _>>I thoroughly disagree. The checks on Government are far tighter _>>than the constraints on a monopolistic business. Look at _>>Microsoft. It threatened to withdraw the Windows 95 license _>>from Compaque Computers unless they also shipped Internet _>>Explorer! It's an obvious abuse of market power and an _>>attempt to strangle competition. Only a Government can prevent _>>that sort of behavour. Can, perhaps. But will they? _>>With all this talk of morality, I consider it my moral duty to _>>avoid buying MS products when at all pratical. The beautiful _>>and free OS Linux is gaining momentum (over 3 million installed _>>worldwide) if it can reach 10% market share, MS will have an _>>interesting race. _>>Martin Sevior _>Here! Hear! Yes, Never buy Microsoft anything. Its mostly crap _>anyway. _>___Ron Strictly per Sturgeon's law, 90% of *ANYTHING* is crap. Microsoft just manages to push the decimal point a few more places to the right . From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 17:47:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10412; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:38:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: <345290F4.47E42511 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:08:12 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Need to clear up old question References: <971025173145_982219996 emout06.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iczAd.0.bY2.J4fKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HLafonte aol.com wrote: > > Greg, > Before I can write an operational description of Generator, I need to clear > up an old question I have tried to answer myself, but I can't figure it out. > When a rotor moves away from the stator, the magnetic field around the > stator starts to decrease and the flux induces a current in the coil windings > around the stator. This current creates it's own magnetic field that is > induced into the stator. > What I can't understand is how the magnetic field can collapse and also be > building in the same stator at the same time. What is the sequence of events? > How can the domains be unaligning and aligning at the same time, how can the > field be decreasing and increasing at the same time in the same stator? > HELP ! > Thanks, > Butch HI Butch, As the rotor moves away from the stator's air gap, the magnetic reluctance of the magnetic circuit increases (air gap, magnet, coil & magnetic wire (ferrite / steel)). This causes the flux flowing through the coil to decrease. If the coil is connected to a load, the induced Emf created by the falling flux causes a current to flow. This current creates a magnetic field in the coil, whose flux is in phase with the flux flowing in the magnetic circuit. This coil is then an additional Mmf source. The two Mmf sources (the magnet and the coil) ADD their fluxes in an attempt to hold the flux flowing in the magnetic circuit constant. As a air gap is part of the circuit and as it has the greatest magnetic reluctance, most of the additional coil generated flux appears there. As the departing rotor is also there, magnetic attractive forces increase and more energy is needed from the rotor's torque source for the rotor to break free of the stators air gap. This additional torque energy is the same energy that flows in the coil doing work via its current and Emf. Hope this helps. No free lunches here. I have copied your question to the group as I believe this point is VERY important to our current discussions. Hope you don't mind. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 18:13:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14263; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:08:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:08:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3452977A.F50B6140 interactsystems.com> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:06:02 -0400 From: Paul Nash X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: RMOG Very Early 26/10 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199710251644.LAA07894 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GAUj03.0.gU3.3WfKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > Only hard test data will offer any proof of support. No more > excuses > of how it's to be only in the future will suffice. Your time has > arrived. > Caution. As you proclaim these incredulous ideas, our credulity is > severely strained without proper testing and outside replication of > your claims. Where is it? > Your credibility is on the line and in serious jeopardy. > Sincerely, > RWW Hi all... I've been lurking in this group for a number of weeks and I am very sorry that I haven't been involved over the years... I felt a need to make my first post in response to the above message. As an unititiated objective observer I believe that the recent posts regarding Greg's projects have been some of the most exciting revelations I have seen in a long time. Although I had noticed the inconsistencies in some of Greg's writings, I also noticed some of the times he was writing them and realized that this guy is working his butt off... (many late after midnight posts, etc.) Although we all have a right to be skeptical, (see above post and recent Jean-Louis "Where is the truth" post) I think we all should hang tough, be supportive and continue working to help him, and us, reach obviously a most elusive and exciting goal. Greg, I have done the two magnet and ferrite test, and I KNOW that the RMOG will work given the appropriate tweaking. (I wish I had discovered it first.) I would like to thank you for posting all of the data you have so far and giving me an education I could get nowhere else. This especially includes PMOD. (Solid state is where I would like to go at this point.) I would like to go on record as one showing my gratitude to all those who are GETTING IT DONE! (Greg, J-LN, and everyone else out there actively working on these threads.) As for the naysayers, if you're not getting it done, then keep quiet! Sincerely, Paul Nash From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 18:19:03 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15560; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:17:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:17:39 -0700 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Dissolved Oxygen in Electrolysis Cells Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:15:36 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce1ac$aa21d620$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cAcMP3.0.2p3.nefKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott mentioned that he got higher (ou?) energies with open H2O-K2CO3-Nickel electrolysis cells. The solubility of O2 in the electrolyte should be about 0.03 cm^3/cm^3 at room temperature and about 0.025 cm^3/cm^3 at 100 deg C. Thats about 6.7E17 O2 molecules/cm^3 of electrolyte. With the H3O+ and K+ ions literally dragging the oxygen to the cathode where it can react with the K or H, it wouldn't be surprising if some "extra heat" came out of the experiments. With the pair of unpaired electrons in the O2 molecule being electrostatically attracted to the "solvated" K+ or H+ ion, even oxygen from the anode reactions could be dragged to the cathode also. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 18:31:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15288; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:27:24 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710260127.UAA15309 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) In-Reply-To: <199710251550.KAA26905 natasha.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Oct 25, 97 10:50:52 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:27:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6hUOP2.0.kk3.vnfKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > > Did you say you put them IN(SIDE) the Van de Graff spherical head? > > Yes, such is the teaching of Barker. Curious isn't it, since inside the > sphere there is no electric field. Apparently Barker thinks that raising > the 'voltage' of the specimen is what does it. Even that doesn't make much > sense since voltage is a relative thing. How does the specimen know it is > inside a charged VdG sphere? Whoa. There isn't a gradient in the volume of a spherical conductive shell, but that doesn't mean nothing is going on between the sea of charged particles on the sphere and floating charges in the volume. There's no (significant) air pressure gradient in my room here, but it would be a mistake to think that therefore there is no air pressure on my body, no storm of molecular collisions imparting that air pressure. Similarly in the volume of a charged sphere, the exchange forces continue to operate (unless someone can show that the exchange forces know when it is time to take a vacation without anyone noticing.) It is simply a consequence of geometry that the forces are all in equilibrium, though I've often wondered whether such charges undergo the equivalent of brownian motion. Anyhow, I seem to recall that the sample in Baker is mounted just at the surface -- where the forces are no longer balanced, but everywhere outward. To demonstrate what the charges would do if they weren't confined to the conductive shell, pour a little salt on top of a van De Graff sphere and turn it on. The salt will go shooting upward. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 19:38:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24156; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:33:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:33:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:35:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski To: vortex Subject: Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CBQW92.0.Mv5.-lgKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Evidence from the early space probes that Lunar gravitational gradient calculations were possibly flawed : The United States and the Soviet Union started to send probes to the Moon in the late fifties. Most of these initial probes met with miserable failure . It is posited here that the reason for these early failures were due to a miscalculation of the lunar gravitational gradient. While is would appear that the calculated mass of the moon was accurate enough to determine the surface gravity (1/6 of Earth's gravity) this is not sufficient data required to properly calculate landing or impact velocities if the moon were assumed to be a hollow spheroid instead of a homogenous mass of rock throughout it's volume. This is because in the case of a hollow spheroid the center of mass is much closer to the surface of the moon if in fact the moon is hollow than if it really were a homogenous mass of rock. The location of the center of mass of any celestial object is critical in determining it's gravitational gradient ,hence the final velocity of any object required to soft-land or otherwise come in contact with the moon would not be known unless the location of the center of mass is somehow determined. The first of three early successful probes ,Luna 1 , was launched by the Russians on January 2, 1959 , was not required to land ,but rather "Fly by" the moon at a distance of about 4600 miles. This is a sufficient distance from the surface where exact knowledge of the location of the center of mass is not critical to success. Luna 2 became the first man - made object to hit the moon . Here though, the probe was allegedly not designed to withstand impact , so no conclusions were drawn about the fact that it ceased to function thereafter. Luna 3 circled the far side of the moon , took some pictures , and sent them back to the earth. . Strangely, Russian moon exploration came to a four year stop after these initial successes . The Russians were characteristically secretive about the data they collected. The American efforts were almost laughable at first . The Ranger space probes were designed to hard land on the moon. Ranger 3 , launched on January 26, 1962 , missed it's target completely and went into solar orbit, Ranger 4 hit the moon but did not send back any useful information. Ranger 5 missed the moon by 450 miles and the whole program was put on hold for two years. Ranger 6 allegedly had it's electrical system burn out in flight and no picture were sent. The Russians re-activated their space program , but their Luna 5, launched on May 9, 1964 , crashed at full speed on the moon , when it was intended to make a soft landing. Luna 6 utterly missed the moon . Luna 7 crashed on the moon when it's retro rockets fired too soon, which is a significant detail in relation to where one assumes the moon's center of gravity to be located in relation to the surface. This is because of the fact that if the moon were assumed to be a homogenous rock , the braking required to make a soft landing could begin taking place at an earlier time than if the moon were a hollow spheroid of the same mass . The reason for this is that the accleration that gravity imparts to a landing spacecraft is lower if the center of mass is further away from the landing surface ,therefore a slower burn rate of fuel is allowable to soften the landing. hence an earlier ignition starting time may be allowed. Ignition start time is also one of the easiest flight parameters to control , much more so than burn rates on any rocket motor. Miscalculation of the moon's gravitational gradient cannot therefore be ruled out as a reason for the too early start time of Luna 7's landing rocket motor. Luna 8 also crashed on the moon , but luna 9 was successful , and became the first spacecraft to soft land on the moon. Lunar probes from both the United Satates and the Soviet Union were more succesful after this. This cannot most likely be attributed to some sudden advance in the quality of the hardware or telemetry methods of both space programs , whereas it is much more likely to be a result of recalculation of the lunar gravitational gradient. end part 1 of 2 Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 19:39:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24543; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:36:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:36:52 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:38:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Luna, continued In-Reply-To: <345289bf.3955259 mail.zip.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"k_XKZ1.0.P_5.3pgKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In part 1, I have attempted to demonstrate how evidence from the early lunar space missions showed that something appeared to be lacking in the required effort to land the unmanned spaccraft on the lunar surface . The totality of that evidence indicates that it is at least possible that the calculations of the lunar gravitational gradient were just plain erroneous for some reason. The lunar orbiting space missions demonstrated even more evidence that the moon might not be a solid homogenous rock throughout it's volume. The most important evidence of this kind where this supposition was proven beyond all doubt was the discovery of the so called "mascons" or Mass Concentrations of Gravity that appear in some places around the lunar globe. These "mascons" were discovered by the Lunar Orbiter series of space missions of the late 1960's. NASA reported that the gravitational pull caused by these mascons was so pronounced that the spacecraft dipped slightly and accelerated when flitting by the circular lunar plains. This showed that there must be some hidden structures of some kind of dense, heavy matter centered like a bulls eye under the circular maria. No scientist has ever accounted for how these mascons got there or could have been formed by random natural processes. There is other data from the manned Apollo lunar exploration series that makes a case for the idea that the moon might not be a natural object formed by random processes such as congealing from a dustcloud , billions of years ago . The most significant fact revealed from the samples of lunar soil and rocks brought back to earth by the Apollo astronauts is that the moon and earth cannot possibly share sthe same origins. The reason for this is the vastly different ages of the earth and moon as determined from samples of lunar material collected by the Appollo Astronauts . Over 99 percent of the moon rocks brought back turned out upon analysis to be older than 90 percent of the rocks that can be found on the earth. The first rock that Niel Armstrong picked up after landing on the Sea of Tranquility turned out to be 3.6 billion years old . Other rocks turned out to be even older , 4.3, 4.5, 4.6 and one alledged to be even 5.3 billion years old. The oldest rocks found on earth are only 3.7 billion years old , and the area that the moon rocks came from was thought by scientists to be one of the youngest areas on the moon! Scientists have generally offered three major theories to account for the moon`s orbit around our planet. All of these are in serious trouble. One theory was that the earth might have been born alongside the earth from the same cloud of gas and dust about 4.6 billion years ago . This theory had to be junked after the lunar rock and soil samples were analysed for their ages, as outlined above . Another theory that the moon had somehow been ripped out of the earth , from the pacific basin ,perhaps. This explanation fails for the same reason. The third theory, that the moon had somehow been captured by the earth's gravitational field is is interesting, but still not satisfactory , that is if it is assumed that the moon is a "natural" object manuevered about by random gravitational processes. However , this theory is the most favored by scientists today. There are enormous objections to overcome in this last theory because of the extremely difficult celestial mechanics involved. For one thing , any object entering the vicinitey of the earth from elswhere in the solar system has an initial velocity imparted by the sun's gravitational influence . The only confiration that could possibly result in a rendzvous with the earth would appear to be one where the moon had originated somewhere within the orbit of the earth around the sun. The possibilty of this occuring as a result of some random natural process is staggeringly miniscule. The moon would have to have been "launched" from another planet (Venus or Mercury) or even from the Sun itself. If that were the case, then the lunar rocks and soil samples would be younger , not older than rocks found on earth. However , the probability that the moon came from elswhere in the solar system outside the orbit of the earth is even more remote, if not totally impossible. This is because that as the moon aproaches the earth from outside earth orbit it would be gaining speed , and as it got near the earth ,a braking maneuver would be required to put it into the orbit that it has. A braking manuever can only be accomplished with thrusting systems under intelligent control of some kind. As NASA scientist Robin Brett aptly summarized , "It seems easier to explain the non-existence of the moon than it's existence1" But of course , the moon exists. Why or how it exists remains a mystery. end part 2 of 2 Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:06:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27982; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:02:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:02:10 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:20:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Open questions Tree and earth Message-ID: <19971025.195846.10638.0.Jahuti juno.com> References: <19971024.190237.3310.0.Jahuti juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-18 From: jahuti juno.com (Michael Morrison) Resent-Message-ID: <"G1Hl33.0.5r6.mAhKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:53:05 -1000 Rick Monteverde writes: >Regarding electrical signals in connection with earthquakes and so >forth, >there is a list on the net devoted to these pursuits. Several amateurs >calling themselves the ELFRAD group have set up detectors in different >parts of the world. Hi Rick: would you kindly give me the details on this list, or a URL? I think I might want to subscribe (as if I don't get enough e-mail!). -- --Michael Morrison Target ICBMs or cruise missles to 38.406N 122.735W > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:14:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29598; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:11:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710260311.WAA09329 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Resent-Message-ID: <"uws0K3.0.NE7.LJhKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:38 PM 10/25/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >(the US "nickel" is made of copper). The US 5 cent piece is not copper. It is made of an alloy called cupronickel. Cupronickel was first utilized for coins in 1860 by Belgium; it became widely used thereafter, replacing silver in British coinage, for example, in 1947. The US adopoted a 75Cu:25Ni cupronickel for the 5 cent piece in 1866. Since 1965, the same alloy has been used for the two outer layers of the dime and quarter with a layer of Cu sandwiched in between. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:14:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29586; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:11:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710260311.WAA09325 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Addendum Personal communication from Barker Resent-Message-ID: <"43Wau1.0.BE7.JJhKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:03 PM 10/25/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: >I talked with one of the Barkers. >there is a hole... about 5/8" in our case. >The sample is RIGHT NEXT TO AND ON THE EDGE of a hole >The sample is NOT inside a closed shielded shell >The sample is wrapped in polyethylene Please provide a precise description of the protocol you followed, John. I'm still not certain where the sample was located w.r.t. the hole. Was the sample half-in and half-out of the sphere? What period of time did you expose the sample to the voltage gradient? Did you stop the VdG to make counts? If not, how did you get the G-M detector to function properly with all that corona spewing all over the place? If you will describe what you did, I'll repeat it here with a sealed Am-241 source and our gamma counting system. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:15:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29197; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:18 -0700 Message-ID: <34529575.145768AB microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:27:25 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG Very Early 26/10 References: <2.2.16.19971026013525.324f2f92 pop.ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0A5d.0.v77.KJhKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ken Smith wrote: > > Hi All, > I have probably exceeded my post limit for the month, but I must > have a few cents worth here. > > Greg W has kindly given us all a few pointers into his research in the form > of quite detailed notes and diagrams, then all we do is bitch when it > doesn't work quite out of the box... > > I feel those that have actually made these things, sweated over a hot iron, > peered myoptically over a coil on the lathe, rolled our balls etc are > entitled to have a cheerful dig now and then as we report our findings / > failures / successes, or not. > > However, little digs is (sic) all they are. Greg likes to drip feed us a > bit, not out of any sense of malice or deception, but more that he wants the > feedback and he wants US to learn the basics. All of this stuff is > obviously fragile technology at the moment. Effects are small and the > hardware is tricky to make. However I suspect that Greg knows (as do I > (suspect), and I am sure many others also) that the real break is quite > close. We will then see some significant and gross effects materialising. > Greg is playing the schoolmaster here. That is his right. I find it > superficially annoying, but in retrospect I have learnt more in the past > year working this way than I have in 30 before. I can now actually > understand what is happening when I 'play' with my magnets and wire. > > Go and have a trawl around the ZPE / OU sites and look at some of the wacky > things that are claimed to work there. Far more expensive and difficult to > make - indeed it would seem to me that the more complex the design the > greater the claims. Well they are harder to disprove, for sure. Greg's > stuff is simple and straightforward to make. OK, it hasn't come out totally > right from the getgo, but the principles are sound and you can see and feel > what is happening. > > The SMOTtie is a good case in point. I never got a runaround, close, but no > coconut. However I am sure that with a little more care and engineering, > perhaps a little more thought on my part as well, I could hack that - and > one of these days I will. However I have fallen foul of the 'lazy' syndrome > on that one. Other things, work / family / fishing / model airplanes / the > lawn - all those trivia of modern life have taken their toll and my little > SMOTies are sat in a back corner. They represent quite a few hours and a > few bucks worth of magnets and balls. However they have given me an insight > into the asymetrical nature of magnetic fields that I would never have found > on my own. I have been tempted to get one of Gregs kits, but I really want > the challenge for myself. Something brought is never as valuable as > something made. > > And perhaps we now come to the point. If Greg put out a complete set of > detailed drawings - down to the last coil wind and bolt, or sent out a set > of bits or even a completed 'toy' and you plonk it on the table and off it > goes. What have YOU achieved then. It is paint by numbers. No, if we get > a broad brush sketch and then make it happen - we have achieved. And I > would take a substantial bet that that will happen very soon. This whole > Free-eng-l list / InterNet thing is about self help and mutual help, new > ideas and variations. OK some of the variations are too much for me to take > on board. Personally most of the electronics stuff leaves me cold and I > wouldn't recognise a Mosfet's Latent Inductance if it bit me in the ass. > But I know my wire and magnets (I think). > > I would like to see Greg put up a movie of a running SMOTtie or his RMOG > churning, but that would be like God popping in for lunch and leaving his > fax number and email address in case I needed a prop up after a bad day in > the simulator > > If Greg came straight out and said that these effects were small and very > hard to achieve in practise and that you would have to get everything just > so before it ran / rotated / trundled / flipped or whatever - we wouldn't > try. We would sit back in the armchairs and watch the football. However if > there is a broad outline and a bit of enthusiasm - we try. And because we > try - we do it differently. This, and I am guessing hard here, is what Greg > wants us to do. He knows he has done it, but he also knows it is damn > tight. If we all try then all those little chaotic changes that we will > make because the plans are loose / we all have different abilities and > magnets and wire &ct / we are all individuals - all this will produce a wide > spread of results from experimental variations that a genius couldn't hope > to devise. As it happens - so far - these variations have resulted in > failure(s). However the failures are as valuable as the successes. A > 'don't do this' is one less leg of that frustrating fractal of possibility > that can be disregarded. > > I am a long way from having my tail between my legs on this one. Oh I will > bitch and curse Greg at times, on this list if I want. I feel I have sawed, > wound, glued, rolled, screwed and riveted my way to a right to do that - as > have many others. And when the first - DONE IT appears on the email - I > will be a very happy lad. Not as happy as I would (will) be if it was me, > but a damn sight happier than if I had just sat back, read and bitched. > > OK - I have said a gutfull. Call me old fashioned if you like, an old fart > if you must. But I do feel better for having stood up on this one. Now I > must get back to the garage. I need to rewind my coils and get that ferite > lip out of the road.... > > Ken Thanks Ken, I don't mind the bitching, I have broad shoulders. I sometimes get it wrong. Bitch away, it helps to keep me intouch. As for the drip feeding. You are 100% correct. Too much info too quick can be bad. My goal is to impart a good understand of the basics of the effects I have discovered. How the effects turn into hardware will be different for each implementation. But make NO mistake about it, its the learning that's my goal. Someone once said : "GIVE a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but TEACH him how to fish and his family will never starve." Or something like that. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:21:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00576; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:13:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Wher is it???Re: 80% efficient thermopile??? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zIwot1.0.u8.VQhKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:02:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 80% efficient thermopile??? Dear Guys, Can we get this information? On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Dean T. Miller wrote: > Hi Fred, > > > From: "Fred Epps" > > To: > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:10:40 -0700 > > > I am the miscreant who promised Peter the plans on the 80% efficient > > thermocouple and didn't deliver :-) I am going to scan off copies to him > > today if he can decode GIFs on his computer. I will send you these as > > well. > > Sorry I'm so late in this request, but if you still have the GIFs > available, would you be able to send them to me? I'm waaay behind in > digging through my saved email. :) > -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:36:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00774; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:29:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:29:08 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:24:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Details... Addendum Personal communication from Barker In-Reply-To: <199710260311.WAA09325 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3fhuf3.0.xB.3ahKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Scott... and Vo., See notes; On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Scott Little wrote: > At 02:03 PM 10/25/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: > > >I talked with one of the Barkers. > >there is a hole... about 5/8" in our case. > >The sample is RIGHT NEXT TO AND ON THE EDGE of a hole > >The sample is NOT inside a closed shielded shell > >The sample is wrapped in polyethylene > > Please provide a precise description of the protocol you followed, John. > I'm still not certain where the sample was located w.r.t. the hole. > The sample is in dielectric. It is JUST inside and centered in the hole. About 2mm fragment. If the sample was pushed out another 1/64" it would be outside. > Was the sample half-in and half-out of the sphere? > > What period of time did you expose the sample to the voltage gradient? > 40 KV 14 hours. Then NO MORE. > Did you stop the VdG to make counts? This was rack mount Glassman HV source. Neg to inside of sphere [the big one] pos on 2" ball ~ 2.75 " from and directly across from hole. Just far enough for no arcing. If not, how did you get the G-M > detector to function properly with all that corona spewing all over the place? > HV is off after 14 hours. Then we do counts. No more HV used ever after. This takes weeks and months to happen. If source is sealed in metal this may not work. We used dielectric, as per communication with Barker. Thanks for trying. J > If you will describe what you did, I'll repeat it here with a sealed Am-241 > source and our gamma counting system. > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) > little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:38:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02369; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3452B97B.81808CB7 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:01:07 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG Very Early 26/10 References: <199710251644.LAA07894 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> <3452977A.F50B6140@interactsystems.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sbNpT.0.ra.TchKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Paul Nash wrote: > > Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > > > Only hard test data will offer any proof of support. No more > > excuses > > of how it's to be only in the future will suffice. Your time has > > arrived. > > Caution. As you proclaim these incredulous ideas, our credulity is > > severely strained without proper testing and outside replication of > > your claims. Where is it? > > Your credibility is on the line and in serious jeopardy. > > Sincerely, > > RWW > > Hi all... > > I've been lurking in this group for a number of weeks and I am very > sorry that I haven't been involved over the years... > > I felt a need to make my first post in response to the above message. > As an unititiated objective observer I believe that the recent posts > regarding Greg's projects have been some of the most exciting > revelations I have seen in a long time. Although I had noticed the > inconsistencies in some of Greg's writings, I also noticed some of the > times he was writing them and realized that this guy is working his butt > off... (many late after midnight posts, etc.) Although we all have a > right to be skeptical, (see above post and recent Jean-Louis "Where is > the truth" post) I think we all should hang tough, be supportive and > continue working to help him, and us, reach obviously a most elusive and > exciting goal. > > Greg, I have done the two magnet and ferrite test, and I KNOW that the > RMOG will work given the appropriate tweaking. Glad someone did this simple test. > (I wish I had discovered > it first.) I would like to thank you for posting all of the data you > have so far and giving me an education I could get nowhere else. This > especially includes PMOD. (Solid state is where I would like to go at > this point.) > > I would like to go on record as one showing my gratitude to all those > who are GETTING IT DONE! (Greg, J-LN, and everyone else out there > actively working on these threads.) As for the naysayers, if you're not > getting it done, then keep quiet! This is a public list. ALL input is welcome, least we become "Rulers" (we KNOW best) of the list and decide what can and can't be said. That would be VERY bad. I will live or die by my words. So will we ALL. > Sincerely, > Paul Nash Hi Paul, I really appreciate, take to heart and think about ALL the postings I receive. I believe it is the sum total of all the input that shows the way. Good or Bad, Supportive or Critical its all correct from someone's view point. I should have been more careful in what I post. I write off the top of my head and give ideas / experience in ONE breath. Sometimes others can't tell the difference. I apologize for this. Its just my nature. I see the past, present and future as ONE. Its sometimes hard for me to relate what's in my thoughts. Sorry for the confusion. It wasn't intended. I only seek to cut through the vast amount of CRAP on OU and define a few solid effects I know about. No magic, just EXISTING physics from a different view point. Simple effects for benchtop replication by home experimenters. The GOAL ............ To Learn. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:46:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04079; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Re: Barker-Van de Graaff Transmutations Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:43:38 -0600 Message-ID: <01bce1c1$58c6e9e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"w8n7V2.0.a_.-ohKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex If the friction belt on the Van de Graaff is creating Light Leptons which are getting all over everything and creating "Hydrinos" , or the fields are creating "Fractional Orbit Hydrinos" and these are transmuting the Isotope. Then, no big mystery. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 20:58:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05193; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:54:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:57:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Luna, continued Priority: normal References: <345289bf.3955259 mail.zip.com.au> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <175A7D5BB4 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"7sa0S3.0.2H1.5yhKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This showed that there must be some hidden structures of some kind of > dense, heavy matter centered like a bulls eye under the circular maria. > > Jim Ostrowski I know what they are! They are a bunch of big, black, rectangular boxes with the dimentions 1, 4, 9!!! JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 21:49:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09477; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:45:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:45:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:44:58 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <19971025233007.14159.qmail hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vKZzK2.0.-J2.EhiKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Peter Aldo wrote: > I wish to subscribe. Is this all I must do? > Pete Hi Pete! Nope, you have to send a subscribe command: Send a blank message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com, putting the word "subscribe" in the subject line of the message header. Full instructions are below. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page KEEP A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE IN A SAFE PLACE. IT CONTAINS INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE VORTEX-L DISCUSSION GROUP. This is an automated subscription mechanism. For your verification, a transcript of the original subscription request is included below. 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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 23:04:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19727; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:57:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:57:23 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:56:32 +0100 (MET) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs In-Reply-To: <199710250405.XAA14618 mirage.skypoint.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"307XO2.0.8q4.2ljKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, John Logajan wrote: > Martin Sevior writes: > > The checks on Government are far tighter than the constraints on a > > monopolistic business. > > Since various governments in this century have butchered far over > 100 million people, your faith in the restrait of government is surely > a triumph of hope over experience. > Sorry, I should have stated legitmate, constitutional, democracies. No doubt people in countries without a firm rule of law, like Somalia, effectively run by a collusion of robber barrons, much prefer their present freedom to do whatever they like, unfettered by the constraints of government. I would say YOUR view is the naive one. There has never been a successful civilization without a government. You are pursuing an interesting version of Utopia such as proclaimed by SF authors suchas Robert Heinlein and I.E. Van Gough. Your country, which is the closest to this vision in terms of a minimal social safety net and inclination to charity, also has a very well defined underclass and a high crime rate. While the USA does many, many things extremely well and provides the vast majority of its citizens a very high standard of living, I think it also displays the consequences of a too small government in some areas. Maybe those are acceptable to you. Not to me. > Even only counting innocents killed by good old democracies, we are > still talking several millions dead -- as compared to the number of > people killed by official policy of Standard Oil, Alcoa, Microsoft ... > zero! > I`m totally opposed to the death penality. But amongst consitutional democracies this is thankfully rather rare. I don't understand what other deaths you are referring to. Certainly not millions of people. > > Look at Microsoft. It threatened to withdraw the Windows 95 license from > > Compaque Computers unless they also shipped Internet Explorer! It's an > > obvious abuse of market power and an attempt to strangle competition. > > Yawn. Gee, I'm being brutalized to take free useful software, oh the horror. > Yeah right. What choice of OS do you have when buy a PC? How much does it cost? When Netscape is marginalized how long will IE be free? > > Only a Government can prevent that sort of behavour. > > Actually, only a government allows copyright power. Copyright is a grant > of legally protected monopoly. Of all the examples of market power you > could draw from, software sales is the most toothless without a government > to back it up. > What's this? Should software be copyrightable or not? Should authors in general have copyright? I certainly think they should have that right. I'm not against business, I'm against monopolistic business. > > With all this talk of morality, I consider it my moral duty to avoid buying MS > > products when at all pratical. > > It is a strange morality that champions the methods of physical coercion > (goverment) over the free market exchange of products and services. > There's only a free market if there is competition amongst suppliers. That's obvious. MS is trying to prevent such competition by using it's entrenched position in operating systems to prevent choice amongst hardware suppliers. > I don't really care which software you use, nor your reason for using it, > but if you really think that Microsoft products are not winning in the > marketplace for legitimate reasons (superior product offering) then > I think you are not objective in your analysis. > This is clearly ridiculus! Microsoft wins not because of superiour products, but because of installed base and superior marketing. > > The beautiful and free OS Linux is gaining momentum (over 3 million > > installed worldwide) if it can reach 10% market share, MS will have > > an interesting race. > > Hmm, if free I.E. is anti-competitive, how come free Linux is "beautiful"? > Try obtaining the source code for MS windows or IE. I'd be very, very interested to know the price. Linux is beautiful for a number of reasons: 1. It works wonderfully well. It is a true multi-tasking, multi-threaded, multi-processing OS. It is incredibily stable. It will run on the fastest microprocessors on the planet or on old 386 machines. 2. The source code absolutely free and cannot be prevented from further distribution. Essentially the only requirement of the copyright is that all distributions must contain the same copyright which essentially says "you cannot prevent this software from being distributed by someone else in whatever mannor they wish". The entire software can be downloaded off the internet for free or bought from a commercial source at the cost of printing 2 CDROMS. That's $5 including postage. 3. It is supported by a worldwide community of hackers who donate their time for free. They're anxious to find bugs and make improvements. In many ways the Linux community has the characteristics of the sort of societies proclaimed by Robert Heinlein and I.E. Van Gough and actively championed by yourself. 4. It wonderfully shows the limits of money over spirit. MS products are the result of throwing money at problems. Linux is the creation of human spirit alone. > At this point I am usually greeted with any combination or all of the >following counter-arguments: > > 1.) If you charge more than the other guys, that's gouging. > 2.) If you charge less than the other guys, that's undercutting. > 3.) If you charge the same as the other guys, that's collusion. > > And government is the means to solve all three! > Well I guess I'm arguing for a different solution. I can't see it happening though, so I'll back government to keep MS in check. Always interesting to exchange views John. Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 23:13:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21684; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:12:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:12:01 -0700 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:10:50 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3458d24c.25186863 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199710260127.UAA15309 mirage.skypoint.com> In-Reply-To: <199710260127.UAA15309 mirage.skypoint.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7feo21.0.kI5.myjKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:27:20 -0500 (CDT), John Logajan wrote: [snip] >Whoa. There isn't a gradient in the volume of a spherical conductive shell, >but that doesn't mean nothing is going on between the sea of charged particles >on the sphere and floating charges in the volume. > >There's no (significant) air pressure gradient in my room here, but it would >be a mistake to think that therefore there is no air pressure on my body, >no storm of molecular collisions imparting that air pressure. > >Similarly in the volume of a charged sphere, the exchange forces continue >to operate (unless someone can show that the exchange forces know when it >is time to take a vacation without anyone noticing.) It is simply a >consequence of geometry that the forces are all in equilibrium, though >I've often wondered whether such charges undergo the equivalent of >brownian motion. > >Anyhow, I seem to recall that the sample in Baker is mounted just at >the surface -- where the forces are no longer balanced, but everywhere >outward. To demonstrate what the charges would do if they weren't confined >to the conductive shell, pour a little salt on top of a van De Graff >sphere and turn it on. The salt will go shooting upward. [snip] Note also that the Aharanov-Bohm (Aharonov-Bohm ?) effect (electrical in this case) is a result of potential only, (not fields). So perhaps this effect can play some role in the likelihood of radioactive decay? The mechanism I have in mind is as follows: Imagine that a decay event occurs only when a particular combination of resonances (all at different frequencies) within a nucleus are in phase with one another. The AB effect might, by selectively altering the phase of these resonances to different degrees, change the moment in time when such a confluence occurs, thereby affecting the otherwise random moment at which decay occurs. By introducing a varying voltage, one could induce a varying phase change in the internal resonances, ensuring that many nuclei passed through their "decay point" during the sweep of the external voltage. This may alternately have happened by introducing a spatial rather than a time gradient in the voltage. (See Pine.SOL.3.91.971025115757.1399B college - JS). Consider also that thermal motion of atoms in a crystal lattice would result in slight movement of many nuclei through slightly different potentials where a gradient exists. BTW has anyone considered making use of the AB effect to phase modulate a laser beam for communications purposes? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 23:14:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19895; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:11:39 -0700 (PDT) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little: K2CO3-H2O-Ni cell attempt... Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:10:58 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <3457ceca.24288354 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199710251434.JAA22473 natasha.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <199710251434.JAA22473 natasha.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lElsf3.0.hs4.OyjKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:34:57 -0500 (CDT), Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Right now I'm stuck trying to figure out how to get sufficient cathode >surface area in my 100 mL beaker cell so that I can get 2 watts of Pin and >still satisfy the 1 mA/cm^2 current density requirement. If the cell >voltage is 2.5 volts, I'll need ~700 cm^2 of cathode!! I doubt if Ni Fibrex >is really a kosher approach since much of its surface area is 'within' the >mat and thus would not be exposed to the electric fields during electrolysis. [snip] But would that have been taken into account by the person who stipulated that the current density should be 1mA/cm^2? I.e. perhaps the real current density was actually higher on the outside, precisely because of the effect you mention. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Oct 25 23:19:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22447; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:17:58 -0700 From: HLafonte aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:17:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971026011722_-1762327832 emout04.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (Stefan) Thought on your new design (gif) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART.BOUNDARY.0.23110.emout04.mail.aol.com.877846642" Resent-Message-ID: <"nqEd43.0.fU5.M2kKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --PART.BOUNDARY.0.23110.emout04.mail.aol.com.877846642 Content-ID: <0_23110_877846642 emout04.mail.aol.com.64568> Content-type: text/plain Stefan, Look at this and see if you think it would help you out any. Thanks, Butch --PART.BOUNDARY.0.23110.emout04.mail.aol.com.877846642 Content-ID: <0_23110_877846642 emout04.mail.aol.com.64569> Content-type: image/gif; name="BUTCH13.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlh6QLYAfcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKbK8Hut1oS13nOt1nut 3pS93nu13oy13oy93pzG3s7e797n76XG573W563O56XO5+fv9+fn75y93nu11nOt3sbe77XO 5/f39+/v94S93u/397XW59bn78bW55zG587n773W797v797n997v9+f393O13rXW75y959bn 99be773e78bW7/f3/5S955TG3rXO763G5/f////39/f/987e987n963W55TG5//3/63O75zO 54y95///963W74y154S156XO7wQEBAgICAwMDBERERYWFhwcHCIiIikpKVVVVU1NTUJCQjk5 Of98gP9QUNYAk8zs/+/Wxufn1q2pkDMAAGYAAJkAAMwAAAAzADMzAGYzAJkzAMwzAP8zAABm ADNmAGZmAJlmAMxmAP9mAACZADOZAGaZAJmZAMyZAP+ZAADMADPMAGbMAJnMAMzMAP/MAGb/ AJn/AMz/AAAAMzMAM2YAM5kAM8wAM/8AMwAzMzMzM2YzM5kzM8wzM/8zMwBmMzNmM2ZmM5lm M8xmM/9mMwCZMzOZM2aZM5mZM8yZM/+ZMwDMMzPMM2bMM5nMM8zMM//MMzP/M2b/M5n/M8z/ M///MwAAZjMAZmYAZpkAZswAZv8AZgAzZjMzZmYzZpkzZswzZv8zZgBmZjNmZmZmZplmZsxm 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--PART.BOUNDARY.0.23110.emout04.mail.aol.com.877846642-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 00:04:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27480; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:59:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:59:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:01:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Luna, continued In-Reply-To: <175A7D5BB4 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LMpVz1.0.0j6.hfkKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Jay Olson wrote: > > > This showed that there must be some hidden structures of some kind of > > dense, heavy matter centered like a bulls eye under the circular maria. > > > > Jim Ostrowski > > I know what they are! They are a bunch of big, black, rectangular > boxes with the dimentions 1, 4, 9!!! > Is this meant as some form of making fun of my article? What ever the significance of these "dimentions" are, perhaps you would care to enlighten me? I like a good joke just as much as anyone, but with a punchline as obscure as this one , perhaps you could tell me who besides yourself is laughing? Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 01:15:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA01084; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:13:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:13:05 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:12:10 +0100 (MET) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Luna, continued In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nnFRY1.0.mG.FklKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Is this meant as some form of making fun of my article? What ever the > significance of these "dimentions" are, perhaps you would care to > enlighten me? > > I like a good joke just as much as anyone, but with a punchline as obscure > as this one , perhaps you could tell me who besides yourself is laughing? > I thought is was an absolutely great joke. Read Arthur C. Clark's 2001 Space Odessy. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 01:18:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA05704; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:13:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:13:31 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <175A7D5BB4 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:10:15 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Luna, continued Resent-Message-ID: <"MqUD71.0.2P1.wcmKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim - >I like a good joke just as much as anyone, but with a punchline as obscure >as this one , perhaps you could tell me who besides yourself is laughing? > >Jim Ostrowski Pretty much everyone, I'd think. Bunch of Clarke-ies & Trekkies on this list, so jokes like that one go over pretty well. On a more sincere note, I can't see why the moon is so anomalous because the rocks are old. And from what we've been told, they really aren't so different, at least chemically. Here the crust has been churning the whole time, so of course the surface mostly isn't that old. The moon's dead geologically, so the old surface sits there, littered with silica debris from the meteorite bombardment of all those huge glass domes. ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 01:20:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02944; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:17:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:17:40 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971025.195846.10638.0.Jahuti juno.com> References: <19971024.190237.3310.0.Jahuti juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:14:30 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Open questions Tree and earth Resent-Message-ID: <"ejqQH2.0.vj.ogmKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael - Write Charlie Plyler for details. The list is called ULF-SCI, and traffic is very light, so it shouldn't be much of an e-mail burden. It's fun to be lurking when they announce something weird they've seen. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 03:32:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA19736; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:28:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 03:28:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971026072735.0077923c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:27:35 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) In-Reply-To: <199710260311.WAA09329 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Hs9wJ1.0.Iq4.HboKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:11 PM 10/25/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >At 01:38 PM 10/25/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>(the US "nickel" is made of copper). > >The US 5 cent piece is not copper. It is made of an alloy called >cupronickel. Cupronickel was first utilized for coins in 1860 by Belgium; >it became widely used thereafter, replacing silver in British coinage, for >example, in 1947. The US adopoted a 75Cu:25Ni cupronickel for the 5 cent >piece in 1866. Since 1965, the same alloy has been used for the two outer >layers of the dime and quarter with a layer of Cu sandwiched in between. > The composition of the US 5-cent piece is that of homogeneous 75% copper and 25% nickel alloy. Weight: 5 grams Diameter: 21.2 mm Edge: Plain As such, and given the electrochemical properties of copper, a US 5 cent piece is more copper than nickel, as stated. Thus, anyone who purports it to be nickel is therefore mistaken. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 05:03:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25709; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:57:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:57:37 -0800 Message-Id: <199710261257.HAA19713 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:07:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ELFRAD info? [was Tree and earth] Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19971025.195846.10638.0.Jahuti juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"3YMxN2.0.cH6.0vpKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 25 Oct 97 at 14:20, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Subject: Re: Open questions Tree and earth > From: jahuti juno.com (Michael Morrison) > writes: > >Regarding electrical signals in connection with earthquakes and so > >forth, > >there is a list on the net devoted to these pursuits. Several amateurs > >calling themselves the ELFRAD group have set up detectors in different > >parts of the world. > > Hi Rick: > would you kindly give me the details on this list, or a URL? I think I > might want to subscribe (as if I don't get enough e-mail!). A search on "ELFRAD" in AltaVista returns ONE hit: http://psn.quake.net/info/psnl97q1.txt which is a 630KB text file of messages from a list called "Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)" -- mostly concerning homebrew seismometers. Within this file, the only instances of "ELFRAD" appear in the .sig of: Charlie Plyler ELFRAD GROUP 35.41N / 80.494W There is some discussion of electronics for monitoring low-frequency EM fields in the environment. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 05:53:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA29836; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:50:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:45:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Luna Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_xSQ1.0.6I7.UgqKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I don't see the joke part of JO Luna. It looks like the beginning of a discussion set. Maybe you have seen similar on TV and in Movies... but where do good authors often borrow from? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 06:26:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01074; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:23:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:23:56 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:23:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710261423.IAA26572 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Details... Addendum Personal communication from Barker Cc: John Schnurer Resent-Message-ID: <"WOt6f2.0.dG.w9rKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:24 PM 10/25/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: > HV is off after 14 hours. Then we do counts. No more HV used >ever after. This takes weeks and months to happen. Did you take the sample out of the dielectric to do the counts? > > If source is sealed in metal this may not work. We used >dielectric, as per communication with Barker. The smoke detector sources have the Am-241 rolled/sandwiched between metal foils, the outer of which is super-thin Au foil which allows the alphas thru...the smoke detector operation requires the alphas. However, the radioactive material is still within a metal enclosure. What kind of radioactive material did you use? Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 06:43:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03552; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:39:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:39:05 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:38:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971026093831_2024231494 mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"NlNFQ1.0.Pt.8OrKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a post on Oct 25, John Logajan asked if the Mills, Good & Shaubach 1994 paper was about experiments with Thermacore's big 10-gallon cell. Yes, 11 of the 14 experiments discussed were with that cell. John also wrote that when he and two Canadians independently measured the calibration constant from a 10-gallon tank like the one that Thermacore used, they got results consistently higher than reported by Mills, et al. John, does a higher calibration constant mean that the heat flow out of the cell, i.e., the heat loss from the cell, would be greater than if it had a lower calibration constant? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 06:44:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA24297; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:38:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:38:57 -0800 (PST) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:38:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971026093825_-292301114 mrin40.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas-Phase BLP Cells Resent-Message-ID: <"HQdof2.0.Zx5._NrKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a post on Oct 23, 1997, Fred Sparber wrote, re the use of tungsten rather than platinum as the filament: "Whoa Again Tom, If the H2O Generated hits hot Tungsten you will get; xH2O + W = WOx + x H2 plus more energy. :-)" How much more energy, Fred? Scott Little wrote on Thur Oct 23, 1997: "U of Penn style experiment: (info from www.blacklightpower.com/ureport) Gas: H2 Pressure: 10 psig initial. the chamber was sealed off after filling it to this pressure. During more-or-less steady excess heat production, the H gas pressure dropped steadily down to about 170 mmHg as if the H was being consumed." Fred responded by raising the possibility, which Fred called a shot in the dark, that the pressure drop in the cell might be caused by the condensation of water, because H2O would be produced by the reactions between KNO3 and H2. I haven't seen any mention of any temperatures in the gas-phase cells low enough to allow the condensation of water. I agree with Fred that more temperature data would be helpful, but when a temperature is mentioned in connection with a working gas-phase cell, it's well above the boiling point of water. All the indications are that the gas-phase cells will only work at temperatures well above the boiling point of water. That's one way in which they differ from the electrolytic cells. They also differ in the compounds used as catalysts. Terry Blanton asked about that. The electrolytic cells use K2CO3 in order to get the needed K ions. The gas-phase cells don't use K2CO3. Fred, Terry, have you studied the BLP website? (By the way, thanks to Mike Carrell for mentioning here on Vortex-L, way back in March, that BLP had set up a website.) Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 07:04:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05678; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:01:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:01:39 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:38:01 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971026223949.2cb723b4 po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Resent-Message-ID: <"JFWUA3.0.eO1.IjrKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Swartz posted the following (edited for brevity) at 07:27 1997.10.26 +0000: >At 10:11 PM 10/25/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >>At 01:38 PM 10/25/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>>(the US "nickel" is made of copper). >> >>The US 5 cent piece is not copper. It is made of an alloy called >>cupronickel. That said, where do you buy nickel ? What common household gadgets and baubles are built in nickel ? Can you buy nickel bolts ? or do you just pretend to be an international arms dealer and contact your local rare metals broker and ask for samples under pretense of buying carloads of the stuff ? I'm having a bit of difficulty getting anywhere with my normal procurement channels...and I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW what is actually made of nickel. I'm sure there's something out there made for some *normal* business. Specifically, I would like to find nickel tubing. But I haven't so far. cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 07:43:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14560; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:39:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:39:50 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:34:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Barker .. detail Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"gjeyS1.0.LZ3.5HsKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: a] must be in dielectric. b] NOTHING was moved, removed or anything. The counter, sample ans so on were fixed, inside the large sphere and remained there! c] the whole idea was to leave everything alone. To take counts we turned on the bench supply. Which gave us our 'clicks' and we placed a tape recorder on top of the sphere to record the clicks. d] as per Barker ... not much happened for a few weeks... and then the counts would go up... time would pass [we are talking days and weeks] and counts would go down.... up.... down... just as in the graph in the patent. But the high counts were never as high as the last ... and it decayed..... to very close to background. Certainly not as high as the popcorn counts we had. OK so far? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 07:56:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09018; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:52:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:52:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:47:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Re: Details... Addendum Personal ..Barker In-Reply-To: <199710261423.IAA26572 natasha.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lyC3s.0.qC2.ZSsKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Scott and Vo., A metal shield will not allow effect to obtain. We used a small fragment of periclase, a mineral basically [ha!] of magnesium oxide. The head of geology described it as being partially substituted [meaning a little bit admixed] with stronium or radium isotopes. We had zero budget for this so, no, we did not have it analysed. You can mail order buy radioactive rocks. If I was going to do this with any money I would have some specimens sawed up by a radio dating lad of some repute, have them retain part of it. Treat one part... send it back and sak "Well, how old it it NOW?" J On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Scott Little wrote: > At 11:24 PM 10/25/97 -0400, John Schnurer wrote: > > > HV is off after 14 hours. Then we do counts. No more HV used > >ever after. This takes weeks and months to happen. > > Did you take the sample out of the dielectric to do the counts? > > > > If source is sealed in metal this may not work. We used > >dielectric, as per communication with Barker. > > The smoke detector sources have the Am-241 rolled/sandwiched between metal > foils, the outer of which is super-thin Au foil which allows the alphas > thru...the smoke detector operation requires the alphas. However, the > radioactive material is still within a metal enclosure. > > What kind of radioactive material did you use? > > Scott > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 08:02:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09727; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:59:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:59:46 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710261559.JAA27951 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Recombination In-Reply-To: <971026093831_2024231494 mrin41.mail.aol.com> from "Tstolper@aol.com" at "Oct 26, 97 09:38:31 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:59:41 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vOXUM.0.nN2.kZsKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > In a post on Oct 25, John Logajan asked if the Mills, Good & Shaubach 1994 > paper was about experiments with Thermacore's big 10-gallon cell. > > Yes, 11 of the 14 experiments discussed were with that cell. Okay, that is the same paper we tried to verify the calibration of the calorimeter of. > John also wrote that when he and two Canadians independently measured the > calibration constant from a 10-gallon tank like the one that Thermacore used, > they got results consistently higher than reported by Mills, et al. > > John, does a higher calibration constant mean that the heat flow out of the > cell, i.e., the heat loss from the cell, would be greater than if it had a > lower calibration constant? To get an intuitive idea of the polarity, note that when I aimed a low speed desk fan at the Nalgene 10 gallon container, I got a constant of about 0.08. On the other hand, when I sealed surface from evaporation and put cardboard sheilds up (about a foot away on the sides) to prevent random drafts, I got a constant upto, if I recall, 0.41. If I recall correctly, the Thermacore value was about 0.18. My "no fancy stuff" variants were, if I recall, around 0.27. The guys in Canada claimed values of 0.30+. This is a pretty big range, and therefore not terribly useful if you don't exactly know the conditions of the system. Were they in a drafty area? The worst part is that calibration was done before the experimental run, so the low constant value could mislead if, say, drafty conditions changed after the experimental run started. Then the cell would retain heat better and appear to be producing energy above baseline. I do have to say that all the anomalous heat of the Thermacore experiment was not accounted for by my "average" run, but most of it was, and therefore the rest was at least more in doubt. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 08:11:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18717; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:04:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:04:26 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:06:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Luna, continued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Vrl0_3.0.Na4.8esKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Jim - > > >I like a good joke just as much as anyone, but with a punchline as obscure > >as this one , perhaps you could tell me who besides yourself is laughing? > > > >Jim Ostrowski > > Pretty much everyone, I'd think. Bunch of Clarke-ies & Trekkies on this > list, so jokes like that one go over pretty well. Yes, I've received a private email from Mike Carrell explaining the whole thing about 1,4,9 and the monolith . I didn't realize that the monolith had those dimensions so I was slow "getting it" ... So , :-) [chuckle] ! > > On a more sincere note, I can't see why the moon is so anomalous because > the rocks are old. And from what we've been told, they really aren't so > different, at least chemically. Here the crust has been churning the whole > time, so of course the surface mostly isn't that old. The moon's dead > geologically, so the old surface sits there, littered with silica debris > from the meteorite bombardment of all those huge glass domes. > Glass domes? ..... :-) another crack up ! You guys!!! Gimme a break... If the age of the rocks were the only thing , fine , but this is the first I've heard that they are similar chemically - and the surface being that old means that most of the meteorite bombardment must have taken place sometime prior to the dated formation of the rocks , because they were molten at that time and just beginning the aging process. There were other anomalies discovered by the space missions that I didn't mention . The astronauts found it extremely difficult to drill into the surface of the moon below the loose dust layer . When the discarded descent stages of the spacecrafts crashed on the moon , NASA noted that the moon "rang like a gong or bell " for up to four hours after impact. So it's important to look at evidence in terms of it's totality , or cumulative effect , and ask questions as to WHY have we not gone back to the moon to find answers. The capabilities of the shuttle would certainly make this possible by ferrying - docking lunar exploration equipment into orbit piece by piece , instead of boosting everything up there in one shot like we used to. Or maybe someone at NASA knows the moon is an artificial object and there ARE artifacts of some kind there that should be kept from public view. Glass Domes ??? I wonder. Jim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 08:52:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26461; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:48:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:48:24 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Gas-Phase BLP Cells Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:46:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce22e$beab4680$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"RWsK73.0.NT6.MHtKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Tstolper aol.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Sunday, October 26, 1997 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Gas-Phase BLP Cells >In a post on Oct 23, 1997, Fred Sparber wrote, re the >use of tungsten rather than platinum as the filament: > > "Whoa Again Tom, If the H2O Generated hits hot Tungsten you will get; > xH2O + W = WOx + x H2 plus more energy. :-)" > >How much more energy, Fred? Not a whole lot, Tom. Figuring the Gibbs free energy for H2O at minus 54 Kcal/mole and WO2 minus 128 Kcal/mole and WO3 at minus 183 Kcal/mole. A rough estimate without reference to the tables on the thermodynamic properties of the oxides: 1, 2 H2O + W <-----> WO2 + 2 H2 + 20 Kcal or 84 KJ 2, 3 H2O + W <------> WO3 + 3 H2 + 21 Kcal or 88 KJ > >Scott Little wrote on Thur Oct 23, 1997: > >"U of Penn style experiment: (info from www.blacklightpower.com/ureport) >Gas: H2 >Pressure: 10 psig initial. the chamber was sealed off after filling it to >this pressure. During more-or-less steady excess heat production, the H gas >pressure dropped steadily down to about 170 mmHg as if the H was being >consumed." > >Fred responded by raising the possibility, which Fred called a shot in the >dark, that the pressure drop in the cell might be caused by the condensation >of water, because H2O would be produced by the reactions between KNO3 and H2. > >I haven't seen any mention of any temperatures in the gas-phase cells low >enough to allow the condensation of water. Not low temperatures in the cells Tom, but in the "Plumbing" to the cells that would allow condensation and "Pumping" of the system. > I agree with Fred that more >temperature data would be helpful, but when a temperature is mentioned in >connection with a working gas-phase cell, it's well above the boiling point >of water. All the indications are that the gas-phase cells will only work at >temperatures well above the boiling point of water. That's okay as long as there isn't something hooked to the cells that will allow the water vapor to condense, like a copper tube to a pressure gauge. > >That's one way in which they differ from the electrolytic cells. They also >differ in the compounds used as catalysts. Terry Blanton asked about that. > The electrolytic cells use K2CO3 in order to get the needed K ions. The >gas-phase cells don't use K2CO3. > Regards, Frederick > >Tom Stolper > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 09:10:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA30186; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:08:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:08:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3453FA64.721A bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:20:20 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas-Phase BLP Cells References: <971026093825_-292301114 mrin40.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ywYuI.0.YN7.9atKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tstolper aol.com wrote: [snip] > That's one way in which they differ from the electrolytic cells. They also > differ in the compounds used as catalysts. Terry Blanton asked about that. > The electrolytic cells use K2CO3 in order to get the needed K ions. The > gas-phase cells don't use K2CO3. > > Fred, Terry, have you studied the BLP website? (By the way, thanks to Mike > Carrell for mentioning here on Vortex-L, way back in March, that BLP had set > up a website.) Thanks, Tom. Not as much as I would like to study it. There's a HUGE volume of information there. You'll have to pardon me. (As a friend working on her doctorate is fond of saying, I'm "just an engineer.") But, I don't understand why Scott says he gets no excess heat from Mills' reaction when his experiment seems to be quite different. Maybe the presence of carbon inhibits/alters the reaction somehow. You don't raise $10M+ from conservative utilities unless you have presented some compelling evidence. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 09:13:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20679; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:09:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:09:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:09:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710261709.LAA06000 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: where to get nickel Resent-Message-ID: <"OXOCP.0.y25.XbtKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:38 PM 10/26/97 +0800, Mpowers wrote: >That said, where do you buy nickel ? MSC, a tool supply house, has Ni foil, Ni sheet, Ni wire cloth Small Parts, Inc. (Florida) has some Ni stuff including 1/32" OD Ni tubing Aldrich Chem Co and Alfa (Johnson-Matthey) has all kinds of Ni: wire, rod, foil, powder >What common household gadgets and baubles are built in nickel ? I don't know of anything common that's pure Ni...lot's of stuff is Ni plated like electronic hardware, screws, etc. >Can you buy nickel bolts ? probably...check with local bolt house. > *normal* business. Specifically, I would like to find nickel tubing. If you want larger sizes, go to Tube Sales, Inc. or Kilsby (sp?) Tubing Co. They will refer to commercially pure Ni as "Ni 200". Also, you can go to www.thomasregister.com and find many more suppliers of Ni goods. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 09:17:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA30495; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:10:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:10:42 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710261710.LAA28423 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: [Off topic] was Protecting Bell Labs In-Reply-To: from Martin Sevior at "Oct 26, 97 06:56:32 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:10:37 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rNDid2.0.PS7.HctKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > > > The checks on Government are far tighter than the constraints on a > > > monopolistic business. > > > > Since various governments in this century have butchered far over > > 100 million people, your faith in the restrait of government is surely > > a triumph of hope over experience. > > > > Sorry, I should have stated legitmate, constitutional, democracies. No doubt > people in countries without a firm rule of law, like Somalia, effectively run > by a collusion of robber barrons, much prefer their present freedom to do > whatever they like, unfettered by the constraints of government. I think you have just redefined government to mean whatever you want it to mean. > I would say YOUR view is the naive one. There has never been a successful > civilization without a government. Actually, both Iceland and Ireland had governmentless societies for several hundred years. I can't recall which one, but one existed in this general state for over 800 years. > You are pursuing an interesting version of Utopia You are setting up a strawman, since I haven't advocated anarchy. It is not government (as a service agency rather than ruler of people) that I oppose, it is the initiation of physical coercion or its threat to accomplish any goal, public or private. The immoral does not become moral merely because it is voted on and approved by a majority vote. > Your country, which is the closest to this vision in terms of a minimal > social safety net and inclination to charity, also has a very well defined > underclass and a high crime rate. There hasn't been a mass starvation in a western capitalistic country since the beginning of the industrial age -- not so of some of the more socialistic/ communistic countries. Odd, isn't it, that the closer you get to the ideals of the communitarian society, the poorer people become. As for poverty, two major factors that mitigate the likelyhood of poverty on an individual basis are, 1.) graduating from high school, and 2.) getting and staying married. Charles Murray showed that unwed motherhood skyrocketed just after the Great Society programs began to subsidize it. Having a kid out of wedlock was a ticket to lifetime financial independence. The Great Society programs single handedly halted the steep downward trend in poverty rates coming out of the second world war and created a new sub-culture of poverty program lifetimers. And Milton Friedman showed that just as the crime rate of the alcohol prohibition era filled the prison population (which quickly declined when that prohibition was ended) so too has the prohibition of illicit drugs swelled the prison population and made drug trafficing an artificially profitable enterprise. So profitable that gangs kill each other for sales turf. Over half the prison population are there for drug related activies, so it is no stretch to suggest that crime would decline by half with the legalization of drugs, just as prohibition era crime all but evaporated with its relegalization. > While the USA does many, many things > extremely well and provides the vast majority of its citizens a very high > standard of living, I think it also displays the consequences of a too small > government in some areas. It is pretty clear that the problems you listed are, if not cause, exacerbated by government policies, as illustrated above. > > > Look at Microsoft. It threatened to withdraw the Windows 95 license from > > > Compaque Computers unless they also shipped Internet Explorer! It's an > > > obvious abuse of market power and an attempt to strangle competition. > > > > Yawn. Gee, I'm being brutalized to take free useful software, oh the horror. > > Yeah right. What choice of OS do you have when buy a PC? How much does it > cost? I made the mistake of buying my computer components from various vendors, and therefore had total choice in which OS I installed. I purposely selected Windows95, and would again. Had I bought a bundled deal, I would have saved several hundred dollars. PC's with Win95 are a great deal for the average customer. The more seamless the multimedia pieces of the OS, the better it is for the customer and the application developer. Bill Gate's Windows has served mankind a lot more than Linux even in its wildest flights of fantasy. > When Netscape is marginalized how long will IE be free? IE is going to cease to exist in about a year or so. Windows98 will be (optionally) an IE GUI instead of the familiar Win95 desktop. It will be an integral part of the OS. > > > Only a Government can prevent that sort of behavour. > > > > Actually, only a government allows copyright power. Copyright is a grant > > of legally protected monopoly. Of all the examples of market power you > > could draw from, software sales is the most toothless without a government > > to back it up. > > > What's this? Should software be copyrightable or not? Should authors in > general have copyright? I certainly think they should have that right. > I'm not against business, I'm against monopolistic business. Any copyright is a monopolistic grant. If you are against monopolies, it follows that you are against copyrights. > There's only a free market if there is competition amongst suppliers. That's > obvious. MS is trying to prevent such competition by using it's entrenched > position in operating systems to prevent choice amongst hardware suppliers. I think you are mixing the meanings of words. "Free market" means unhindered by government interference, generally. So there is no particular need for more than one supplier to make a "free market." But of course, it doesn't matter to this example, since Microsoft is but one of many available options. You could go without computers. You can use your freebe Linux. You can by a commerical Unix. You can buy an Apple, you can resort to Digital Research DR-DOS, etc. There are plenty of options, it just so happens that more people like Windows than the other options. That makes the other fellows and their supporters jealous. But it is hardly an example of market failure. > > I don't really care which software you use, nor your reason for using it, > > but if you really think that Microsoft products are not winning in the > > marketplace for legitimate reasons (superior product offering) then > > I think you are not objective in your analysis. > > > > This is clearly ridiculus! Microsoft wins not because of superiour products, > but because of installed base and superior marketing. Ha! How could Microsoft get installed base without having a superior product? This is always the tired argument against monopolies, but no one ever explains how they got to be successful in the first place. J.D. Rockefellar started out with $8000. If the immutable law of monopoly power and market share applied, he would have been crushed instantly by the other oil distributors already in business. Simple truth is that JDR knew how to shave costs of production and in the process insured not only his own success, but served the public in general by reducing the cost of energy. D'Armatono showed that the price of kerosene declined from the early days of JDR until the gov broke up Standard Oil. In this classic case of monopoly, the price of kerosene was never run up by the great monopolistic devil Rockefellar. Pretty odd considering all the rants against Standard Oil. Here he had all this power and never used it. Or maybe there really is no such power except in the economic theories of the anti-monopolists. > 2. The source code absolutely free and cannot be prevented from further > distribution. And you are worried about Microsoft for what reason? Isn't this all the choice you need? Why do you need hired goons to go in with guns and prevent Microsoft from selling what you consider an expensive buggy varient of this manna from heaven? > Well I guess I'm arguing for a different solution. I can't see it happening > though, so I'll back government to keep MS in check. The convience of coercion. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 09:37:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23249; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:33:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:33:23 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: where to get nickel Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:32:23 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce235$1f2fc660$13a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"V6dRP1.0.Ah5.XxtKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, October 26, 1997 10:15 AM Subject: where to get nickel >At 10:38 PM 10/26/97 +0800, Mpowers wrote: > >>That said, where do you buy nickel ? > >MSC, a tool supply house, has Ni foil, Ni sheet, Ni wire cloth > >Small Parts, Inc. (Florida) has some Ni stuff including 1/32" OD Ni tubing > >Aldrich Chem Co and Alfa (Johnson-Matthey) has all kinds of Ni: wire, rod, >foil, powder > >>What common household gadgets and baubles are built in nickel ? > >I don't know of anything common that's pure Ni...lot's of stuff is Ni plated >like electronic hardware, screws, etc. > >>Can you buy nickel bolts ? > >probably...check with local bolt house. > >> *normal* business. Specifically, I would like to find nickel tubing. > >If you want larger sizes, go to Tube Sales, Inc. or Kilsby (sp?) Tubing Co. >They will refer to commercially pure Ni as "Ni 200". Also, you can go to >www.thomasregister.com and find many more suppliers of Ni goods. Just out of curiosity I flipped over to the HotBot search engine and plugged in got 42 hits. Ther's an article about a Canadian Company that is going to produce 99.99999% pure nickel tubing (chemical vapor deposition)for the SNO neutrino project. Got deep pockets, Scott? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 11:12:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16392; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:08:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:08:35 -0800 Message-Id: <199710261908.LAA28658 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "vortex" , "Jim Ostrowski" Subject: Re: Luna, continued Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:17:32 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_e-hx2.0.204.nKvKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jim, and all! I try like hell to avoid posting about these non-o/u topics like UFOs (and I have been mightily resisting the Great Pyramid posts as well) but I just had to do it with this hollow moon thing :-) I'll be perfectly happy to take this off list, becasue it really doesn't belong here. I have been convinced that the Moon was a hollow body that had been moved into orbit by SOMEONE for about 5 years, since I read the books by Don Wilson called "Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon", and "Secret Of Our Spaceship Moon" which covers the evidence described by Jim and a great deal more. Unlike many speculative theories, like Hoagland's, the evidence for the artificiality of the Moon in it present form is solid and varied. NASA scientists themselves have said that the hollow moon model fits the facts--- but of course it can't be true. > > On a more sincere note, I can't see why the moon is so anomalous because > > the rocks are old. And from what we've been told, they really aren't so > > different, at least chemically. > > If the age of the rocks were the only thing , fine , but this is the first > I've heard that they are similar chemically - and the surface being that > old means that most of the meteorite bombardment must have taken place > sometime prior to the dated formation of the rocks , because they were > molten at that time and just beginning the aging process. The surface of the moon is NOT similar to that of the earth, unless your neighborhood is high in glasses containing refractory metals like Titanium. The presence of these metals is very difficult to explain, because the Moon does not have enough gravitational pressure or radioactivity in its core to be an active volcanic body which would be capable of spewing these materials up to the surface. And the materials are concentrated in the seas so they could not be the result of passage of the Moon near the Sun. They COULD easily be explained if these materials were pumped out of the Moon when it was hollowed out. In addition these lunar surface materials are very dense, yet the Moon as a whole has a density about half that of earth. The Moon would float in water! So obviously the interior must be very rarified to compensate for this. Also, the unexplainable Mascons you mentioned are concentrated on the OTHER side of the Moon, in the opposite location you would expect from tidal forces, which would tend to pull them around to this side. How do they stay over there? > > There were other anomalies discovered by the space missions that I didn't > mention . The astronauts found it extremely difficult to drill into the > surface of the moon below the loose dust layer . When the discarded > descent stages of the spacecrafts crashed on the moon , NASA noted that > the moon "rang like a gong or bell " for up to four hours after impact. Yes, a NASA scientist said the acoustic characteristics were that of a hollow Titanium sphere 60 miles below the surface. In addition, the scientists saw EXACTLY the same seismic traces each time a meteorite would hit, as if it were vibrating some fixed bodies inside the moon. > So it's important to look at evidence in terms of it's totality , or > cumulative effect , And you have not covered a great deal of the outstanding evidence, Jim. It would take 20 pages just to LIST the anomalous features of the Moon! One I don't believe you mentioned: the Moon is placed in orbit at exactly the distance from the Earth so that it covers the Sun during a solar eclipse. Isaac Asimov in one of his books commented on the improbability of this occuring by chance. and ask questions as to WHY have we not gone back to > the moon to find answers. The capabilities of the shuttle would certainly > make this possible by ferrying - docking lunar exploration equipment into > orbit piece by piece , instead of boosting everything up there in one shot > like we used to. Well, the question is, if we had gone back there, would we the people know about it? Brian O'Leary in his first book about his experiences as an astronaut (sorry I've forgotten the name of the book) says that the military had a parallel space program in existence, the "blue" program, with its own manned launch facilities at Merritt island, some distance north of Cape Canaveral. I've never been able to authenticate this though. > > Or maybe someone at NASA knows the moon is an artificial object and there > ARE artifacts of some kind there that should be kept from public view. Or maybe we were kicked off. The question that has to be asked is WHY an ET race would go to all this trouble to rebuild the Moon and move it into its present orbit. I will not speculate on this here, but if you think about it I you will see certain consequences that call into question our whole view of ourselves as a species. > > Glass Domes ??? There are unquestionably large artifacts on the moon. Although Richard Hoagland's theories are numerological and cannot be taken seriously, he has uncovered some evidence that it solid and conclusive. His "glass domes" theory doesn't bear up under even cursory examination, because it relies on evidence at the edges of photographic resolution, but there is other photographic evidence that is VERY clear. Take a look at the "spire" or the "city" images on his web site and see what I mean. With Hoagland you musn't confuse the message with the messenger. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 11:52:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22506; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:45:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:45:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:40:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Fred Epps , John Schnurer , vortex Subject: 80% Thermopile Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xcR4Q2.0.TV5.AtvKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Fred, Will you please let us know where to get this information? Or can you describe it to us? Thanks, JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 12:41:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01445; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:36:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199710262036.MAA14624 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: 80% Thermopile Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:16:03 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cb0VS1.0.SM.WdwKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, Sorry I didn't respond earlier. My work computer (which I'm stuck with 2-3 days a week) is falling apart, so no email. There is a brief description of this thermopile on Harold Aspden's website at http://www.energyscience.co.uk/books.htm I will send some material that I have in my files to you privately. Anyone who wants this info let me know.. Fred > > Will you please let us know where to get this information? Or > can you describe it to us? > > Thanks, > > JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 13:47:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26494; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:39:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:39:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:41:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Luna, continued Priority: normal References: <175A7D5BB4 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2917C724F1 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"6d5Qp2.0.qT6.2YxKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sorry Jim, if you didn't get my "2001 joke." I found your article very interesting, and it had that flavorfull hint of mystery and "wow, could there really be aliens out there?" Then it hit me. The parallel was so close to the scene in 2001 where Dr. Floyd is being briefed on the magnetic fields surrounding a "black monolith" of dimentions 1,4,9 found near Tycho, that I just couldn't resist. Once again, please forgive me if I offended you -- I am sorry. JAY OLSON > On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Jay Olson wrote: > > > > > > This showed that there must be some hidden structures of some kind of > > > dense, heavy matter centered like a bulls eye under the circular maria. > > > > > > Jim Ostrowski > > > > I know what they are! They are a bunch of big, black, rectangular > > boxes with the dimentions 1, 4, 9!!! > > > > Is this meant as some form of making fun of my article? What ever the > significance of these "dimentions" are, perhaps you would care to > enlighten me? > > I like a good joke just as much as anyone, but with a punchline as obscure > as this one , perhaps you could tell me who besides yourself is laughing? > > Jim Ostrowski > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 14:30:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03773; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:24:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:24:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3453C1FB.519F interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:19:39 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: MOON WON'T FLOAT! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rVE6-2.0.tw.SCyKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: My book says (havent been there myself): Moon mass = 0.01 Earth mass Moon density = 3.3 g/cm^3 (Water in my house, density = about 1 g/cm^3) Moon stuff won't float on earth water, but Saturn stuff might (0.7 g/cm^3). If the maria of the moon were formed by asteroid impact, who knows what moon stuff came from what location?? My astronomical credentials consist of two, 8" dia reflecting scopes, one of which is gathering dust in my basement right now. (subject labeled as off topic)------- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 15:06:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28337; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:03:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:03:44 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971026223949.2cb723b4 po.pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:00:29 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Resent-Message-ID: <"1BS6i3.0.hw6.FnyKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MPower - Nickel can be electroformed. If you can make or buy plating solution or find someone who does heavy plating or electroforming, you could have your own custom shapes grown at high purity - tubes, fancy screenlike meshes, or whatever. The stuff has a high shrinkage when electroformed, but wax (not sure of temperature here, but I think it stays low enough) or rubber forms can be used. Don't plan on forming large flat sheets. Tubes should be easy - plate some rod shapes. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 15:09:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27113; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:58:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:58:19 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971026223949.2cb723b4 po.pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 12:54:58 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Tree fields (Barker Rad Remediation) Resent-Message-ID: <"oqOSz1.0.Yd6.9iyKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mpower wrote: > I'm having a bit of difficulty getting anywhere > with my normal procurement > channels...and I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW > what is actually made of nickel. I see ads in the lapidary and metalsmith magazines for all sorts of odd metal stock. Some of the bigger scrap dealers sometimes have bins of odd metals, you might get lucky there for cheap. Also there's the Thomas Register for suppliers and jobbers. There's an online version to at http://www.thomasregister.com I got some bismuth from a company called Allied Engineering I found in the Thomas register online. Their catalog is basically the periodic table of elements, and their address is http://www.micronmetals.com/ Good luck. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 15:31:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03774; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:27:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:27:58 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:27:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971026182544_-990399164 emout03.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I stick to my story. Resent-Message-ID: <"CtV873.0.pw.z7zKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I agree that the Casmir process can produce power in a one shot process. note the gravity produced by the one shot casmir process is: gravity = G (dp/dt)/ccr = G force/ccr To continously produce power neg grav potential needs to be continously produced. The applied force needs to be continous. Low frequency superconductive zero point vibrations are able to exert a continous force. freq exterted = 28 X 10 ex6 / dia in inches force = IxB The only why to do this is with Superconducting technology. I have sent your a tape of my latest experimental efforts. More and improved tests are to follow. Check it out comments are welcome. Again thanks for your help in the past. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 15:37:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05321; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:35:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:35:43 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Re: THE MOON WON'T FLOAT Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:33:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce267$a25c5440$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"qGyyX1.0.3J1.EFzKq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger says it won't float. I don't follow your reasoning, Frank. It floats in space, where the density of the aether is zero. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 15:47:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18944; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:42:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 15:42:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3453D557.80B738D4 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:12:15 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG 27/10, Hints & Bearing Loads Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v6mDD1.0.rd4.mLzKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, I have just posted the 27/10 RMOG updates. I have shown the methods that I am using to build my RMOG and how I intend to ELIMINATE the magnet thrust loads on the bearings. Should have my RMOG up in a few days. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 16:10:44 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24708; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:05:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:05:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3453DABC.62787CB9 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:35:16 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG Animated Gif removed References: <3453A5D1.2F67D900 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q2oOQ3.0.z16.GhzKq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > the 114K animation on the top of the page is dramatically slowing down loading the page. Probably the my cache did not working well these days to speed up loading pages already accessed once. Also, Turkey BW is not good and page loading takes several mi nutes. Could you find a solution for this? > > Regards, > > hamdi ucar HI Hamdi, Good idea!!!!!!!! DONE. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 16:41:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29296; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:35:50 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971027083723.2ea7dcb8 po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: Re: 80% Thermopile Resent-Message-ID: <"jruZb2.0.c97.h7-Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps posted the following (edited for brevity) at 00:16 1997.10.27 -0800: > >There is a brief description of this thermopile on Harold Aspden's website at >http://www.energyscience.co.uk/books.htm > This device is quite an interesting one. I remember its first description in a British electronics mag a couple of years ago. I may be mistaken, but I believe the name is Electronics & Wireless (or somesuch) If you can find it, it had a fairly comprehensive discussion of how the device was constructed. This appears to have been an actually built device, as opposed to some of the vapourware you see described elsewhere. It reminds me of something said by epitaxy some time back: The energy is out there. It just needs to be ORGANIZED. And that's what the thing is purported to accomplish. Apparently, the idea is that in an oscillating charged lattice (where have we heard this before ?) heat can be coaxed into causing electron flow in accordance with the oscillation. Or vice versa. Sounds cool... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 16:42:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20486; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:38:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3453E26F.9F324B86 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:08:07 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Hold Your Hand Up References: <199710261418.IAA27943 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v-NwM3.0.y_4.IA-Kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > > 10/26/97 > > To ALL SMOTers, RMOGers etc., > > 1. Will all who have independantly built and tested a Greg Watson SMOT > or RMOG device and demonstrated countinous roll around or whatever you > consider o/u please Hold Your Hand Up and post your success to this > list? You can refer to my SMOT page for a list of replicators, both Good and Bad. I will add a few more "Rollaway" reports when I get around to it. > 2. Will all, fifty or so, who have received Greg's promised no fail, > out-of-the-box, erector set snap together SMOT, please Hold Your Hand > Up and post to this list? Bit hard as I haven't starting shipping yet. Refer to the schedule for the latest update. Finally got a CNC produced SMOT base that works. Funny Richard, I don't seem to find your name in the list of SMOT purchasers? However, everyone who has ordered a SMOT is in PUBLIC view for ALL to see. > 3. Will all, fifty or so, who have received Greg's promised no fail, > out-of-the-box, erector set snap together SMOT, AND who demonstrate > countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u please Hold Your > Hand Up and post your success to this list? See answer to question 2 above. > 4. For all who have Held UP Their Hands in the affirmative for any of > the above three queries please send a video of your device > demonstrating countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u. > Please send all videos to Bill Beaty of this list or any other > independant list, such as Jean-louis Naudin's, so the whole world may > be notified. Don't really think that that will be necessary. > Thank You, > > RWW Hi Richard, Hope to be able to meet you when I get my tour underway. In which city do you live? -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 17:11:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04611; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:07:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:07:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:10:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: I stick to my story. Priority: normal In-reply-to: <971026182544_-990399164 emout03.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2C90D727B3 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"SUpF83.0.y71._a-Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I agree that the Casmir process can produce power in a one shot process. > > note the gravity produced by the one shot casmir process is: > > gravity = G (dp/dt)/ccr = G force/ccr OK, my first question is what is G? I thought it was the gravitational constant untill I look at your units and see that "gravity" must be in units of velocity. So what do you mean by gravity "produced" by the one shot casimir process? c is vel. of light, right? r is "radius" or "distance"? > To continously produce power neg grav potential needs to be continously > produced. > The applied force needs to be continous. Low frequency superconductive zero > point vibrations are able to exert a continous force. A continuous force on what? > freq exterted = 28 X 10 ex6 / dia in inches Is freq frequency? Frequency is in units of 1/distance? > force = IxB > > The only why to do this is with Superconducting technology. I have sent your > a tape of my latest experimental efforts. More and improved tests are to > follow. Do what? > Check it out comments are welcome. > > Again thanks for your help in the past. > > Frank Z This post is very interesting, however, I am not sure what you are driving at. I have tried to follow the past few posts on this thread but I must have missed something. Could you please explain what you are trying to do with gravity and ZPE? Please forgive me if the answers to my questions are obvious to everyone but me. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 17:25:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28036; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:21:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:21:03 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:15:51 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Greg Watson , vortex , John Schnurer Subject: One hand Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"K3TxK.0.ur6.zn-Kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo. and Greg, Based on the description from Greg Watson I was able to build and verify the following: I made replication of basic SMOT work. Design is a little different than Greg Watson's but demonstrates principle. Two rows of magnets on ferromagnetic backing were used. Steel ball bearings were carried up and incline and left the end of the track. All bearings, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8 and 1-1/4 inch diamters were all carried up with no adjustment required for different bearing sizes. This work was done and reported here on vo some months ago. JHS PS: Very cool thing. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 18:48:56 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17226; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3453FF95.434E interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:42:29 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE MOON WON'T FLOAT(off topic) References: <01bce267$a25c5440$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4Ufcm3.0.4D4.6-_Kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > It floats in space, where the density > of the aether is zero. :-) > And, I'll bet it floats in your eyes, Fred, when you hold your head just so - damn, if I were single and, if I were gay ------ Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 19:19:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16222; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:14:03 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:13:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710270313.VAA18678 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: One hand To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"135nj3.0.Az3.vR0Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You wrote: > > > > Dear Vo. and Greg, > > Based on the description from Greg Watson I was able to build and >verify the following: > > I made replication of basic SMOT work. Design is a little >different than Greg Watson's but demonstrates principle. > Two rows of magnets on ferromagnetic backing were used. > Steel ball bearings were carried up and incline and left the end >of the track. All bearings, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8 and 1-1/4 inch diamters were >all carried up with no adjustment required for different bearing sizes. > This work was done and reported here on vo some months ago. > > > JHS > > PS: Very cool thing. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 19:19:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15741; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:11:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:11:28 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Off Topic. Fred Epps' Lunar Spaceship. Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:09:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce285$c2fb2d20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4WImV3.0.tr3.UP0Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey Fred, you trying to spook the folks? The idea of converting an asteroid, asteroid fragment, or a moon into an "Enterprize Class Spaceship" was explored sometime back by myself and others . It seems to be the most practical way to build a ship that could range in size from a few hundred tonnes to hundreds of megatonnes, or more. Note that they are already in orbit. :-) Hadn't counted on anything as big as The Moon though. :-) Since the asteroid belt contains millions of fragments in the right size range, all with Fe, Ni, Al, Mg,Ti, etc., with more oxygen than you could ever use. (makes a great propellent). About all you would need for starters is a 50 megawatt fission reactor, a few hundred tonnes of Urea (NH2-CO-NH2) and some hardy "Hardrock Miners", and a good electro-metallurgy team. :-) With such a "starter kit" it is not out of the realm of possibility of colonizing any rock fragment, moon or planet that has either no atmosphere or one that is benign. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 19:25:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17694; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:23:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:23:22 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:22:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710270322.VAA26208 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: One hand To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ndUmc.0.OK4.ea0Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/11999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John S wrote: > > > > Dear Vo. and Greg, > > Based on the description from Greg Watson I was able to build and >verify the following: > > I made replication of basic SMOT work. Design is a little >different than Greg Watson's but demonstrates principle. > Two rows of magnets on ferromagnetic backing were used. > Steel ball bearings were carried up and incline and left the end >of the track. All bearings, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8 and 1-1/4 inch diamters were >all carried up with no adjustment required for different bearing sizes. > This work was done and reported here on vo some months ago. > > > JHS > > PS: Very cool thing. Come now, John. Do you represent your experiment as "demonstrating countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u". If so, please submit your video so all the world may be notified. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 20:01:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23759; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:56:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:56:12 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:51:06 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Notes... One hand In-Reply-To: <199710270322.VAA26208 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DqR5w3.0.8p5.R31Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Richard and Vo., Please see note at bottom; On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > John S wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Vo. and Greg, > > > > Based on the description from Greg Watson I was able to build and > > >verify the following: > > > > I made replication of basic SMOT work. Design is a little > >different than Greg Watson's but demonstrates principle. > > Two rows of magnets on ferromagnetic backing were used. > > Steel ball bearings were carried up and incline and left the end > >of the track. All bearings, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8 and 1-1/4 inch diamters > were > >all carried up with no adjustment required for different bearing > sizes. > > This work was done and reported here on vo some months ago. > > > > > > JHS > > > > PS: Very cool thing. > > > Come now, John. Do you represent your experiment as "demonstrating > countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u". If so, please > submit your video so all the world may be notified. > > RWW > I communicated with Greg reagrding his work. He send me facsimile of the design. After some consideration I built a slightly different design, but the same basic idea. My note, above, stands by iteslf. If lifts several sizes of steel ball bearings and does not require adjustment once it is set up to lift any given bearing. I do not now say anything about roll around or anything else. simply that I replicated the lift of the bearings. I consider Greg's work his work and do not presume to try to 'do it first' ... whatever the "it" is. The only thing I can think of which makes it worth reporting is the lack of delicate adjustment. I have my own ideas about magnetic fields, curl and so on. If you say "I have roll around" well and good. If I say "I have roll around" well and good and you may ask me to make tapes. I report: The little track will lift varying sizes steel ball bearings. That is it. NOTE: I am NOT a very good mechanical guy. I can hold my own with two dimensional thin layer autoradiographic analysis of micro organisms tagged with P32 ... but don't ask me to fabricate the equipment. I mean you can ask me and I will try... but it won't be pretty! Now ask me to make a real world working EEG acquisition system that acquires a 0.6 cps wide signal at 13.25 cps with 0.001 cps resolution with a swing from 0.8 u volts to 4 u Volts .... and get it out of a metal cab driven by a 30 horse DC brush motor less than 4 feet away ... and get it out intact enough to allow the operator to "fly" the motion simulator with their EEG... [see May 1994 Discover magazine, article "Brain Powered"] ... and I'm your man. I can bias up a GM tube to get a nice Townsend effect with the best of them.... and even design and build a tracking non linear Townsend compensation circuit to enhance the effect. But I probably could not blow a thin wall tube very well and sure as heck know I would take a long time polishing one silicon wafer to moderately close tolerance. I can and have made reduced backface deformation body armor... but I am not very good cutting and fitting hard stuff. My little track had one screw in the middle holding it and the large balls would clear it... but the little 3/8 inch ball crashed into the screw... and hopped over it ... and went the rest of the way along the track .... a whole 4.5 inches maybe! One day maybe I can find the cash and time to stand next to a good open minded machinist and then make the roll around rig. But it has not happened yet. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 20:04:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27097; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:58:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:58:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:53:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: cool thing ....Re: One hand In-Reply-To: <199710270313.VAA18678 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WYHDB1.0.Id6.n51Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I meant Greg's idea is a very cool thing. On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > You wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vo. and Greg, > > > > Based on the description from Greg Watson I was able to build and > > >verify the following: > > > > I made replication of basic SMOT work. Design is a little > >different than Greg Watson's but demonstrates principle. > > Two rows of magnets on ferromagnetic backing were used. > > Steel ball bearings were carried up and incline and left the end > >of the track. All bearings, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8 and 1-1/4 inch diamters > were > >all carried up with no adjustment required for different bearing > sizes. > > This work was done and reported here on vo some months ago. > > > > > > JHS > > > > PS: Very cool thing. > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 22:18:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id WAA08594; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:13:14 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Need to clear up old question Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:12:37 +0000 Message-ID: <19971027061234.AAA7156 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"tQx_13.0.562.u33Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >As the rotor moves away from the stator's air gap, the magnetic >reluctance of the magnetic circuit increases (air gap, magnet, coil & >magnetic wire (ferrite / steel)). This causes the flux flowing >through the coil to decrease. If the coil is connected to a load, the >induced Emf created by the falling flux causes a current to flow. >This current creates a magnetic field in the coil, whose flux is in >phase with the flux flowing in the magnetic circuit. Ed: Lenz's law states that an induced electric current always flows in such a direction that it opposes the MMF that produced it. So, wouldn't the flux induced by the magnetic field in the coil be 180 out of phase with the flux that was induced to attract the rotor pole to the stator pole? > This coil is >then an additional Mmf source. The two Mmf sources (the magnet and >the coil) ADD their fluxes in an attempt to hold the flux flowing in >the magnetic circuit constant. As a air gap is part of the circuit >and as it has the greatest magnetic reluctance, most of the additional >coil generated flux appears there. As the departing rotor is also >there, magnetic attractive forces increase and more energy is needed >from the rotor's torque source for the rotor to break free of the >stators air gap. This additional torque energy is the same energy >that flows in the coil doing work via its current and Emf. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Oct 26 22:59:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id WAA11874; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:54:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:54:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34543A92.8E0676C0 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:24:10 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: Emf & Mmf inductions. References: <19971027061234.AAA7156 HOME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XnpGp.0.Mv2.ng3Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > >As the rotor moves away from the stator's air gap, the magnetic > >reluctance of the magnetic circuit increases (air gap, magnet, coil & > >magnetic wire (ferrite / steel)). This causes the flux flowing > >through the coil to decrease. If the coil is connected to a load, the > >induced Emf created by the falling flux causes a current to flow. > >This current creates a magnetic field in the coil, whose flux is in > >phase with the flux flowing in the magnetic circuit. > > Ed: > Lenz's law states that an induced electric current always flows in such a > direction that it opposes the MMF that produced it. So, wouldn't the flux > induced by the magnetic field in the coil be 180 out of phase with the flux > that was induced to attract the rotor pole to the stator pole? The rotor is leaving the air gap, air gap reluctance (magnetic resistance) is increasing, flux in the magnetic circuit (and coil) is falling. The Emf induced into the coil will cause a current to flow and generate a magnetic field (Mmf source) which will oppose the falling flux. The coil's flux will ADD to the magnet's flux in a vain attempt to hold the flux flowing through the coil constant. As the air gap has most of the magnetic circuit's reluctance, most of the coil's Mmf will be dropped there and increase drawback of the departing rotor. Coils act (generate Emf and current) to oppose changes in flux. Its their job, 24/7/365. I use the left hand curl to determine current flow with increasing flux and the right hand curl for decreasing flux. Point the thumb along the direction of flux flow and the curled fingers will indicate the direction of induced current flow. Most magnetic folks know of the left hand induction curl rule for increasing flux, but however somehow the right hand curl induction rule for decreasing flux has slipped away un-noticed. They both work. Try it. Don't confuse the above right hand induction rule for Emf / current induction with decreasing flux, with the right hand rule for Mmf (magnetic field) generation, where you hold the coil with the fingers pointing in the direction of current flow and the thumb indication the direction of flux flow and the North pole. Also remember that current flows from + to - Emf source, while electrons flow from - to + Emf source. In magnetics I ONLY use current flow. All of this can be very confusing. I was for years. Sometimes still. > > This coil is > >then an additional Mmf source. The two Mmf sources (the magnet and > >the coil) ADD their fluxes in an attempt to hold the flux flowing in > >the magnetic circuit constant. As a air gap is part of the circuit > >and as it has the greatest magnetic reluctance, most of the additional > >coil generated flux appears there. As the departing rotor is also > >there, magnetic attractive forces increase and more energy is needed > >from the rotor's torque source for the rotor to break free of the > >stators air gap. This additional torque energy is the same energy > >that flows in the coil doing work via its current and Emf. > > Hi Ed, It works as I said. Try the two curl rules and all should be clear. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 00:44:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id AAA25662; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:40:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:40:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3454535F.85808F3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:09:59 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex , List Server Newman Subject: Re: Hold Your Hand Up References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EaggU1.0.qG6.vD5Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Richard - > > > Why try to modify it to suit the > > agenda of certain individuals? > > Who, me? I modified nothing. You mean Greg? If he's made significant > modification to some of the data posted there, I'm sure somebody would have > been yelling about it by now, as I said. You mean the individuals who > posted? Perhaps some, I don't know. But I don't believe all would. > Factoring for incompetence and subconscious or inadvertent self-deceit, I > think there's still a pretty good chance that some of the people posting > there are competent and got solid positives. Hi Richard, Let get something VERY clear here and NOW. Other than reformatting and spell checking, the data on my SMOT result page is as it was received. PERIOD. Anyone find any problems with what I reported you sent in? PLEASE let me know. Skip that, LET RICHARD KNOW. I am not normally a angry man, pride myself on self tolerance and trying to see the world through others eyes, but you are calling a lot of good, honest people who have ACTUALLY built SMOT devices, liars. Including me. If you were in Australia, I would now be talking to my lawyer. I don't run this list, Richard, but its you who is flying close to the wind. Had a bad hair day, did we? Or do you have a hidden agenda? Don't like all my research being made so public, do we? Who do you work for? Have a good day ............ GET A LIFE. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 00:52:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id AAA31372; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:47:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:47:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 02:46:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710270846.CAA18186 dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: A piece of Cold Fusion search To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"e7toC1.0.6g7.OK5Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 27, 1997 To Vortex: Back in September, I saw a spf post titled 'Stress induced fusion'. The poster was inquiring to see if there was any update on something he saw published in the 1980's (just before P&F!). I e-mailed him my inquiry and reasons to him to see if he had information of the original sources. He did, fortunately. And he eventually sent me the information. I promised to post his information to Beatty's Vortex and individuals for evaluation. I am doing this now. I think the information adds another hint, page, and fillip to understanding the cold fusion phenomenon. >Hi. Here is the information you requested. In 1986 cold fusion was reported in LiD crystals that when sharply struck were reported to eject MeV neutrons This work has not yet been confirmed (as of 1995). The same researchers later showed that shock treatment of titanium or palladium deuterated metals also produced neutrons. -Derjaguin et al. LiD crystals struck giving rise to MeV neutrons emitted (shock destruction) 1. Derjaguin, B. V. et al. Sov. Colloid J. 48, 12 (1986). 2. Kluyev, V. A. et al. Sov. J. tech. Phys. Lett. 12, 1333 (1986). Without bold/italics: 1.Derjaguin, B. V. et al. Sov. Colloid J. 48, 12 (1986) 2. Kluyev, V. A. et al. Sov. J. tech. Phys. Lett. 12, 1333 (1986) -neutrons due to electrostatic accelerations of d+ in the cracks of the crystal.[Cohen, J. S. & Davies, J. D. Nature 338, 705-706 (1989).] Without bold/italics: Cohen, J.S. & Davies, J. D. Nature 338, 705-706 (1989). I never looked at the original papers since my school didn't have them and they were in Russian. If you're really interested you should be able to find them at a University near your location. Good luck, Jon This invaluable response from Jon came after my inquiry below: >>In a message dated 9/25/97 7:35:10 AM, you wrote: September 25, 1997 Dear Jon, Thanks for the interesting question. Do you remember the details of the papers where you read about this? I mean the subject titles, authors, date of publication, and where you saw the papers. I would like to search this information out if possible. It is interesting that somebody tried stressing a loaded metal specimen and got results. I think the results are related to other cf results obtained by other means. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 01:17:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id BAA27831; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:12:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:12:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:11:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710270911.DAA26055 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Curiosity on stress induced fusion To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ob_eJ1.0.lo6.mh5Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 27, 1997 To Vortex, As Jon (Forgetu2 aol.com) promised information on his stress induced fusion posting (September 28, 1997), I gave him additional information to indicate my curiosity: Jon, At Stanford Research Institute (SRI), in the earlier years of investigating into cold fusion effects, they had a laboratory accident where their palladium sample exploded and killed a cf experimenting scientist. Since then, also on the advice from F&P (Fleischmann & Pons), laboratories have been using small samples for their experiments. What the cause of the explosion was laid to,(I have not seen or heard of any conclusions from an official investigation) was the supposition that the solid larger sample suddenly "decompressed", so to speak, after being heavily loaded with deuterium. F&P also had an explosive experience during their early experiments which lead to cold fusion results. In their case, it blew apart part of their private laboratory setup. Decompression or fusion explosion, or what? Perhaps the references you find about the fracture induced fusion papers may provide additional clues among other information. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 01:43:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.8) id BAA29358; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:36:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:36:04 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:35:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971027043531_-90912322 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au, billb@eskimo.com Subject: Delayed Email ? Resent-Message-ID: <"8QPqS3.0.YA7.126Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An other example of delayed Email below : Message sent by Greg : << Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23149; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) =====^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^=================Message sent stamp Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FDA96.50FE23BF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson >> Message received date : << Suj : RMOG Builders Date : 27/10/1997 04:21:02 ======^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^==========Message receive stamp From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com To: freenrg-l eskimo.com (List Server Freenrg) CC: vortex-l eskimo.com (List Server Vortex) >> Why this delay ? Jean-Louis Naudin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------- On 27/10/1997 04:21:02 , Greg wrote : << Suj : RMOG Builders Date : 27/10/1997 04:21:02 From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com To: freenrg-l eskimo.com (List Server Freenrg) CC: vortex-l eskimo.com (List Server Vortex) HI Jean-Louis, Ken and others, .... (snip ) -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from relay16.mail.aol.com (relay16.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.72]) by air17.mail.aol.com (v35) with SMTP; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:21:02 -0500 Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49]) by relay16.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id TAA22872; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23149; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <344FDA96.50FE23BF microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:34 +0930 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 03:54:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16968; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:49:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:49:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: A piece of Cold Fusion search Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:47:32 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce2ce$1c104560$0a83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"77YFs.0.z84.s-7Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Akira Kawasaki To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, October 27, 1997 1:50 AM Subject: A piece of Cold Fusion search Akira Kawasaki wrote: >October 27, 1997 > >To Vortex: > >Back in September, I saw a spf post titled 'Stress induced fusion'. The >poster was inquiring to see if there was any update on something he saw >published in the 1980's (just before P&F!). I e-mailed him my inquiry >and reasons to him to see if he had information of the original >sources. He did, fortunately. And he eventually sent me the >information. I promised to post his information to Beatty's Vortex and >individuals for evaluation. I am doing this now. I think the >information adds another hint, page, and fillip to understanding the >cold fusion phenomenon. > >>Hi. Here is the information you requested. > > In 1986 cold fusion was reported in LiD crystals that when sharply >struck were reported to eject MeV neutrons > This work has not yet been confirmed (as of 1995). The same >researchers later showed that shock treatment of titanium or palladium >deuterated metals also produced neutrons. > >-Derjaguin et al. LiD crystals struck giving rise to MeV neutrons >emitted (shock destruction) > > 1. Derjaguin, B. V. et al. Sov. Colloid J. 48, 12 (1986). > 2. Kluyev, V. A. et al. Sov. J. tech. Phys. Lett. 12, 1333 > (1986). > >Without bold/italics: >1.Derjaguin, B. V. et al. Sov. Colloid J. 48, 12 (1986) >2. Kluyev, V. A. et al. Sov. J. tech. Phys. Lett. 12, 1333 (1986) > > >-neutrons due to electrostatic accelerations of d+ in the cracks of the >crystal.[Cohen, J. S. & Davies, J. D. Nature 338, 705-706 (1989).] > >Without bold/italics: >Cohen, J.S. & Davies, J. D. Nature 338, 705-706 (1989). > >I never looked at the original papers since my school didn't have them >and they were in Russian. If you're really interested you should be >able to find them at a University near your location. Good luck, > >Jon > >This invaluable response from Jon came after my inquiry below: > >>>In a message dated 9/25/97 7:35:10 AM, you wrote: > >September 25, 1997 > >Dear Jon, > >Thanks for the interesting question. Do you remember the details of the >papers where you read about this? I mean the subject titles, authors, >date of publication, and where you saw the papers. I would like to >search this information out if possible. It is interesting that >somebody tried stressing a loaded metal specimen and got results. I >think the results are related to other cf results obtained by other >means. Good stuff, Akira. The Hydrino hypothesis fits rather nicely here. Regards, Frederick > >-AK- > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 03:56:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05616; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:53:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:53:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345480AE.58B20D34 microtronics.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:23:19 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG update 27/10 Late Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1f2-V1.0.VN1.038Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HI All, I have re-arranged my RMOG page into separate pages for each of the updates. This should speed up the loading time. Some page names have changed so go in from the home page. Energy has altered to Dmec and Dnmec has altered to Rmog. The update pages are Rmog-25-10.html as an example. The latest update has several Quick Field sims and XY flux plots which show what is happening in the air gap and how the flux flowing through the ferrite flux gate increases as the coil produces an opposing flux in the air gap. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 04:31:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07580; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:25:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:25:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: 80% Thermopile Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:10:00 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971027122832485.AAA116 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"n9Jk61.0.Ms1.rW8Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Epps refers to Aspden's work, which is very interesting. It is *not* a thermopile in a conventional sense as it does not rely on semiconductor junctions for its operation. The abstracts available at the website do not give much detail about the construction of the device, which is contained in two Energy Science Papers available for purchase from Aspden, which I have. There are patents on the device which are available for sale and development by interested parties. The structure does not use specialized materials, as do semiconductors, but requires painstaking work to construct. Construction could be automated by an investment in suitable machinery. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 06:22:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02095; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:16:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:16:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:13:13 -0800 Subject: Re: Tree and Earth Message-ID: <19971027.061320.3542.0.Jahuti juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-9,11,13,15-17,19,21-23,25-29 From: jahuti juno.com (Michael Morrison) Resent-Message-ID: <"Nn35o3.0.eW.w8ALq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Actually, since you were discribing signal aquistion with a squid and inferred that similar work could be done with other equipment, I was inquiring about what you thought that equipment might be. I am quite familiar with the signal processing end of it, analog or digital, but the detector and preamplifier were what I was asking about. While doing R&D for an oil-well instrumentation company, which deals with processing low-frequency signals, I used a large inductor (about 1.5M long and ten cm diameter with a hundred thousand turns of wire) for some experiments, and discovered that a) it was sensitive to movement through the Earth's magnet field, and b) was seeing a lot of signal in the one to ten hertz range. I thought it curious at the time, be didn't investigate further as my work involved other things. Specifically, what sort of detectors do you think would be suitable? I don't have the facilities to build another one of those monster coils, and would like a suggestion or two on something smaller. I am interested in gathering data in the low-frequency range, not in proving any point concerning earthquake precursors and the like. -- --Michael Morrison Target ICBMs or cruise missles to 38.406N 122.735W From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 07:46:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20012; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:37:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:37:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3454C6FF.8CC1A031 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:53:19 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: eprint: The Casimir-Aharonov-Bohm effect? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kVwLD2.0.cu4.YKBLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Paper investigating ZPE, published today. Available at http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-th/9710183 Regards, hamdi ucar hep-th/9710183 The Casimir-Aharonov-Bohm effect? Authors: Yu.A. Sitenko, A.Yu. Babansky The combined effect of the magnetic field background in the form of a singular vortex and the Dirichlet boundary condition at the location of the vortex on the vacuum of quantized scalar field is studied. We find the induced vacuum energy density and current to be periodic functions of the vortex flux and holomorphic functions of the space dimension. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 07:47:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19760; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:36:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:36:37 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:35:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710271535.JAA05529 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Hold Your Hand Up To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"BFWgD3.0.aq4.4KBLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 10/27/97 Mr. Watson wrote: snip >Hi Richard, > >Let get something VERY clear here and NOW. snip >I am not normally a angry man, pride myself on self tolerance and >trying to see the world through others eyes, but you are calling a lot >of good, honest people who have ACTUALLY built SMOT devices, liars. >Including me. > >If you were in Australia, I would now be talking to my lawyer. > >I don't run this list, Richard, but its you who is flying close to the >wind. > >Had a bad hair day, did we? > >Or do you have a hidden agenda? > >Don't like all my research being made so public, do we? > >Who do you work for? > >Have a good day ............ GET A LIFE. > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson ===================================================================== I apologise for your emotional outbursts that my queries seem to have provoked. However, it must indicate that we are getting a little closer to the truth of the matter. Rather than resort to personal attacks and references to Neumanesque legal threats to support your cause, it is much better to hold the standards of this discussion to the scientific merits of your claims. After all, the truth will out. After my initial Hands Up inquiry, a couple of hands were raised in reflex fashion. However, on deeper reflection these posters were not able to meet the the simple and easy criteria of "demonstrating countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u". And, videos were totally out of the question. So, my "Hold Your Hand Up" inquiry is still on the table. In fact, those who have indicated they have positive results on your web site and qualify for the simple and easy criteria of "demonstrating countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u", should immediately submit their videos. I do not belittle, in any fashion, their findings or your claims as such. If your publicized claims have any scientific merit, as I hope they do, then this is world class news. And, you should rightfully have your dreamed of world tour. Others in the past have submitted videos of their work. This is not new or my original idea. John Hutchinson has an excellent video of some very atypical and unorthodox science. He also has submitted various materials that have been analysed around the world. The value of a video doesn't prove or disprove the merit of a claim. Videos can be faked. Note: I do not for one minute intimate that you or those who submit videos would ever forge or fake a video representation of a successful SMOT or RMOG. Videos do not replace the Scientific Method, but are a part of it in that they record experimental evidence and results. However, a video may go a very long way in convincing a skeptical public of the merits of your claims. Videos would be a great PR bonanza for you and your firm and shore up your credibility considerably. So, Mr. Waston, it's up to you to submit your videos (not animations) to the scientific world, since I believe you have invented the SMOT, and RMOG and claim to have "demonstrated countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u". It will save us all a lot of time and effort for you to do so and, no doubt, will save embarassment for some of those who have reported positive results on your web site and this listservice. Lastly, a New and Fuzzy "Internet Science" is foisted upon us by its new practitioners. In many respects it is radically different from the old Scientific Method. I will post on it in the future. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 08:06:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26244; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:59:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:59:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:01:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MOON WON'T FLOAT!(off topic) In-Reply-To: <3453C1FB.519F interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7Gnuf3.0.vP6.VfBLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > If the maria of the moon were formed by asteroid impact, who knows what > moon stuff came from what location?? Well , the maria is moon dust ,which is amazingly younger than the rocks lying about in it , according to NASA. If the dust was the pulverized remains of an asteroid along with the rock fragments, they would be the same age....another mystery. > > My astronomical credentials consist of two, 8" dia reflecting scopes, > one of which is gathering dust in my basement right now. > Let me know when you decide to have a garage sale , Frank . Turn your dust gathering items into $$$! > (subject labeled as off topic)------- Frank Stenger > OK. Does that mean we're not supposed to talk about this anymore? BTW I AM working up a response to your last email ...I need a little more time tho. Thanks. Jim O. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 08:08:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08570; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:04:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:04:05 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: Richard Wayne Wall Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:56:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199710271535.JAA05529 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.4 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: Hold Your Hand Up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"bltWk2.0.p52.ojBLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27-Oct-97, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: >So, Mr. Waston, it's up to you to submit your videos (not animations) >to the scientific world, since I believe you have invented the SMOT, >and RMOG and claim to have "demonstrated countinous roll around or >whatever you consider o/u". >Lastly, a New and Fuzzy "Internet Science" is foisted upon us by its >new practitioners. In many respects it is radically different from the >old Scientific Method. I will post on it in the future. >RWW So RWW why don't you do some work of your own? If you don't like the new Fuzzy " Internet Science" don't participate. I think spf would be perfect for you. ___Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 08:14:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28678; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:09:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:09:04 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:11:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Luna, continued In-Reply-To: <2917C724F1 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"g6wsX1.0.y_6.ToBLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Jay Olson wrote: > > Sorry Jim, if you didn't get my "2001 joke." I found your article > very interesting, and it had that flavorfull hint of mystery and > "wow, could there really be aliens out there?" Then it hit me. The > parallel was so close to the scene in 2001 where Dr. Floyd is being > briefed on the magnetic fields surrounding a "black monolith" of > dimentions 1,4,9 found near Tycho, that I just couldn't resist. Once > again, please forgive me if I offended you -- I am sorry. No offense taken , pal... I'm just a little slow when it comes to science fiction movies. I did see 2001 a long time ago ...but I never "got it" with that weird ending either.I'm thick as a brick when it gets into metaphysics , too , I guess. "Live long and prosper!" (V) Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 08:53:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03904; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:48:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:48:15 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:33:21 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Change of address Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710271135_MC2-2549-EBF0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"0NY1-2.0.uy.DNCLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex The bulldozers are coming next month. I am moving to a new address: Jed Rothwell Infinite Energy Magazine 1954 Airport Road Suite 205 Chamblee, GA 30341 I'll move the second week of November. Otherwise you may see me on the 7:00 o'clock news from Atlanta, the last holdout in an office building that will fall down by itself if they don't hurry up and tear it down. I expect my phone number will remain: 770-451-9890. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 10:13:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23232; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:06:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:06:13 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710240258.VAA11405 natasha.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:10:09 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Miley's calorimetry Resent-Message-ID: <"4wiHd3.0.rg5.JWDLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The issue of Miley's calorimetry was raised on Vortex in the last few days, as it has been raised a couple of times in the past. A bit over 1 year ago, Miley and I discussed and compared our respective calorimetry of Patterson cells. Note that Miley was not free to discuss all details of his work, due to his agreement with CETI, and I respected that restriction and did not push him to breech it. My conclusion was that Miley was not strongly interested in possible excess heat at the time, and that he had not checked his calorimetry for problems and artifacts. It was clear that it was more susceptible to problems that our system at General Atomics. (We consistently recorded energy out = energy in, but we did not have access to genuine Patterson beads.) Scott Little writes: >What we observed instead was a more-or-less meaningless meandering around of >the delta-T signal in response to ambient temperature changes in our lab. >The Rifex kit included an insulated chamber for the cell to operate in but >there was no provision for temperature regulation of this chamber. We had problems like this, too, until we regulated the temperature around the chamber. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 10:14:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23799; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:08:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:08:38 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:06:12 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [Off topic] Helpful advice on UK train Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710271307_MC2-2546-6D50 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"JXtv92.0.kp5.aYDLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Gene sent me photos from our sad journey to England. Three of them cheered me up: a handsome picture of Chris's son Chris Jr.; a nice shot of cousin Patrick playing the accordion; and a photo of something I saw on the train, which I find hilarious. It shows a small glass box placed above the window at one end of the car. Inside the box is a small steel hammer, and on it is a notice in light green writing: In an emergency use this hammer to break the windows This brings to mind a number of questions: 1. Have these people ever seen a conventional emergency exit window on a motorbus or airplane? 2. How do I get into the box in the first place? They should place another, smaller hammer outside the glass box to break the glass to get the hammer to break the windows. 3. Who would have the presence of mind to do any of that in an emergency? 4. Why light green writing? To make it more inconspicuous? 5. Who are they kidding? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 10:21:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23547; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:07:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:07:44 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:07:35 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Jason Aldo Reply-To: Peter Jason Aldo To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RMOG type generator Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ls9BP3.0.ql5.kXDLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello everyone, Concerning the RMOG, Has anyone tested the mechanical power needed to spin the flux gate in the following conditions: 1. without magnets in place 2. with magnets in place but with no armature and coil 3. with magnets and armature in place but with no coil 4. with magnets and armature in place (coil shorted). 5. with magnets and armature in place (coil open) I have been working on a flux gate generator for the past three years that is basically the same as the RMOG except it has two discs with four ferrite rods per disc on each side of a single I-shaped armature. There are two sets of magnets as well. The mechanical power needed to spin it increases from situation 1 (requiring the least power) to situation 4 (requiring the most power). I have not tried situation 3 yet , however. I was wondering if this was the same for the RMOG. My generator is most difficult to spin when the coils are open. Even various loads on the generator result in less power needed to spin the generator compared to the open coil condition. Unlike the RMOG, my generator is more efficient when the gaps are as close as possible. When shorted or put under load, the power needed to spin the gates will be less than the power needed the spin them when in the open coil mode ONLY after a certain speed has been reached. The greater the load, the faster the generator must be spun to achieve this effect. I am trying to understand if the RMOG is most difficult to spin in the open coil mode as compared to the first three conditions mentioned above, or if this condition is a result of some sort of losses inherent in my model alone. I would much appreciate anyone's input. Pete From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 12:22:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14447; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:14:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:14:02 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:13:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199710272013.MAA12069 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Curiosity on stress induced fusion Resent-Message-ID: <"23Ob7.0.YX3.8OFLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >October 27, 1997 > >To Vortex, > >As Jon (Forgetu2 aol.com) promised information on his stress induced >fusion posting (September 28, 1997), I gave him additional information >to indicate my curiosity: > >Jon, > >At Stanford Research Institute (SRI), in the earlier years of >investigating into cold fusion effects, they had a laboratory accident I met with McKubre a while back and spoke breifly about that. As well, I spoke with EPRI about the same thing. According to my understanding, what happened was not a CF phenomena. What they think happened is that the sensors telling them about the pressure and the re-combination going on in the cell failed, allowing the pressure of the H and O gases inside to build up. So you had a normal pressure / chemical explosion of the fuel cell which had no pressure relief valve to vent off excess pressure from the thin metal cannister. But there was no evidence that the event was nuclear in origin AFAIK. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 12:32:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21026; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:24:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:24:46 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971023231954.2caf8444 po.pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:28:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis Resent-Message-ID: <"HlA7b2.0.Q85.8YFLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mpowers wrote: >What they don't tell you is that they augment the flame with O2. > When I saw this I was a bit disconcerted. > Add oxy to a stoiochiometric H2/O2 feed ?? > For what purpose ? > It certainly has a dramatic impact on the flame intensity. > It almost appears as if what's coming out would be H2. > But that's not right. It IS a mix of H2/O2 straight from the >(non-)electrolysis chamber. > So how does O2 participate in the flame ? It isn't burning the workpiece. But excess O2 in the DOES burn the workpiece, if it is metal. And this adds energy to the total flame. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 13:19:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26650; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:09:50 -0800 Message-ID: <34550302.F9C430A3 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:39:23 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: A site and a paper on ferromagnetism References: <3454EE44.F44936DF verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"L3GaJ.0.BW6.TCGLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Site is http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~novotny/magnetism.html > Paper is cond-mat/9710267 > From: NOVOTNY scri.fsu.edu > Magnetization Switching in Single-Domain Ferromagnets. > > Greg, did not read them yet, but you may check them when you have time. > > Your web pages are better now. As you renamed some pages (dmec/dnmec), some links are not valid. Once, I encountered a program which automatically find broken link. I did not remember the name now. If you need such a utility you can find it on windows95 .com I guess. > > Regards, > > hamdi ucar Hi Hamdi, I have added links to make the old links operational. Energy.html will link to Dmec.html Dnmec.html will link to Rmog.html Dnmectheory.html will link to Rmogtheory.html I altered the link names as they didn't reflect what they were. Sorry. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 13:29:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29438; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:19:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:19:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34550540.ACA2A817 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:48:56 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG progress Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_RLxe1.0.jB7.PLGLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have finished the RMOG rotor with the 4 ferrites. The cuf-off, grinding and sizing rigs I have posted work well. The ferrites are flush with the sides of the Perspex rotor. Very little air resistance with this rotor. I have redesigned one of the bearing supports to incorporate supports for the thrust balancing magnets. I will be able to move them in and out to get good balancing of the magnetic forces. As the ferrites have almost no losses, I expect the rotor to be magnetically notchy, but still rotate freely. I have decided to make the whole thing from 6mm Perspex. Will go to town in a few hours to buy another sq mtr of the stuff. Will report back later. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 13:37:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03020; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34550803.BF82B9E8 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:00:43 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: RMOG V1.1 - New tests References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pCpHw2.0.2l.UWGLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Jason Aldo wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > Concerning the RMOG, Has anyone tested the mechanical power needed to > spin the flux gate in the following conditions: > > 1. without magnets in place > 2. with magnets in place but with no armature and coil > 3. with magnets and armature in place but with no coil > 4. with magnets and armature in place (coil shorted). > 5. with magnets and armature in place (coil open) > > I have been working on a flux gate generator for the past three years that > is basically the same as the RMOG except it has two discs with four > ferrite rods per disc on each side of a single I-shaped armature. There > are two sets of magnets as well. The mechanical power needed to spin it > increases from situation 1 (requiring the least power) to situation 4 > (requiring the most power). I have not tried situation 3 yet , however. > I was wondering if this was the same for the > RMOG. My generator is most difficult to spin when the coils are open. > Even various loads on the generator result in less power needed to spin > the generator compared to the open coil condition. Unlike the RMOG, my > generator is more efficient when the gaps are as close as possible. When > shorted or put under load, the power needed to spin the gates will be > less than the power needed the spin them when in the open coil mode ONLY > after a certain speed has been reached. The greater the load, the faster > the generator must be spun to achieve this effect. > I am trying to understand if the RMOG is most difficult to spin > in the open coil mode as compared to the first three conditions mentioned > above, or if this condition is a result of some sort of > losses inherent in my model alone. I would much appreciate anyone's input. > > Pete HI Peter, In the old RMOG design the thrust load are very high. Not good. A lot of losses. In the current RMOG design (which I am currently building), there are two thrust balancing magnets. These magnets reduce / eliminate the thrust load on rhe rotor's bearings as the ferrite flux gates move past the magnets. With this design, the coil to flux gate to magnet gaps can be made as small as possible to achieve good flux swings into the RMOG's coils. My goal, with this simple design is to reduce coil Open load to the same as the No magnet load. Once I get there, things will happen quick. Have you checked out the 27/10/late RMOG site update. Would appreciate your input. Just click on the link below and then the update link on the home page. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 15:31:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28625; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:23:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:23:23 -0800 Message-ID: <19971027232126.19735.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.106] From: "Peter Aldo" To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: RMOG V1.1 - New tests Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:21:25 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"k-Rkj1.0.8_6.e9ILq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 13:34:52 1997 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03020; > Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) >Message-ID: <34550803.BF82B9E8 microtronics.com.au> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:00:43 +1030 >From: Greg Watson >Organization: Greg Watson Consulting >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: List Server Freenrg >CC: List Server Vortex >Subject: Re: RMOG V1.1 - New tests >References: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"pCpHw2.0.2l.UWGLq" mx2> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12025 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >Peter Jason Aldo wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> Concerning the RMOG, Has anyone tested the mechanical power needed to >> spin the flux gate in the following conditions: >> >> 1. without magnets in place >> 2. with magnets in place but with no armature and coil >> 3. with magnets and armature in place but with no coil >> 4. with magnets and armature in place (coil shorted). >> 5. with magnets and armature in place (coil open) >> >> I have been working on a flux gate generator for the past three years that >> is basically the same as the RMOG except it has two discs with four >> ferrite rods per disc on each side of a single I-shaped armature. There >> are two sets of magnets as well. The mechanical power needed to spin it >> increases from situation 1 (requiring the least power) to situation 4 >> (requiring the most power). I have not tried situation 3 yet , however. >> I was wondering if this was the same for the >> RMOG. My generator is most difficult to spin when the coils are open. >> Even various loads on the generator result in less power needed to spin >> the generator compared to the open coil condition. Unlike the RMOG, my >> generator is more efficient when the gaps are as close as possible. When >> shorted or put under load, the power needed to spin the gates will be >> less than the power needed the spin them when in the open coil mode ONLY >> after a certain speed has been reached. The greater the load, the faster >> the generator must be spun to achieve this effect. >> I am trying to understand if the RMOG is most difficult to spin >> in the open coil mode as compared to the first three conditions mentioned >> above, or if this condition is a result of some sort of >> losses inherent in my model alone. I would much appreciate anyone's input. >> >> Pete > >HI Peter, > >In the old RMOG design the thrust load are very high. Not good. A >lot of losses. There are little thrust load losses in my generator because there are two sets of magnets on opposing sides of the two discs which balance out the thrust loads. >My goal, with this simple design is to reduce coil Open load to the >same as the No magnet load. Once I get there, things will happen >quick. Yes, if you can do this, then you will have an overunity device, since power needed to spin it decreases when the coils are shorted. In my generator, the open load is greater than the no magnet load and it is also greater than when the magnets are in place, but with the armature absent. This means to me that there are some losses other than mechanical which only occur when the open coil armature is in place. Have you compared losses between these two cases with your RMOG???? I am trying to rule out the possibility that generators of this kind are inefficient when not under load, but somehow increase in efficiency when a load is applied, resulting in decreased mechanical power needed to spin it as compared to the no load condition. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts. Pete ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 15:49:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24839; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:44:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:44:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34554CCF.61FB keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:24:15 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Coral Castle files] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"OP_Dm3.0.046.ETILq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <34554C91.42C5 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:23:13 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Coral Castle files References: <19971027224604.2732c4f4.in pop3.vossnet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks! I put all the files available on KeelyNet on the website, they can be accessed through either; http://www.keelynet.com/leed.htm or http://www.keelynet.com/unclass.htm This after several emails and comments relating to Coral Castle and Leedskalnin's view of how magnetic poles create and sustain the universe....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 16:52:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15829; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:47:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:47:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:15:56 -0500 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: [Off topic] Helpful advice on UK train Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199710271919_MC2-2553-6031 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"qHBKp3.0.Et3.VOJLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed asks: >> 2. How do I get into the box in the first place? They should place another, smaller hammer outside the glass box to break the glass to get the hammer to break the windows. 3. Who would have the presence of mind to do any of that in an emergency? 4. Why light green writing? To make it more inconspicuous? 5. Who are they kidding? - Jed << How dare you impugn the result of innumerable committee meetings followed by lengthy reports with recommendations and PERT plottings, not to mention the accountants who trashed the whole thing and designed the final result themselves. The green writing is to prove that they are up-to-date as the notice re-cycles itself after 100,000 people have read it. Sorry I missed you both. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 16:57:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03307; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:47:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:47:31 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:46:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710272346.RAA02085 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Hold Your Hand Up To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"lsa7U2.0.Up.HWILq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mr. Wormus wrote: snip >>Lastly, a New and Fuzzy "Internet Science" is foisted upon us by its >>new practitioners. In many respects it is radically different from >>the old Scientific Method. I will post on it in the future. > >>RWW > >So RWW why don't you do some work of your own? If you don't like the >new Fuzzy " Internet Science" don't participate. I think spf would >be perfect for you. > >___Ron ======================================================================== 10/27/97 Oops! Another ad hominem attack. For the sake of clarity and confining the debate to the merits of the issues and claims put forth by Mr. Watson, I will ignor it. You too, Mr. Wormus, are invited to participate in the "Hold Your Hand Up" inquiry. Have you had positive success in SMOT or RMOG construction and "demonstrated countinous roll around or whatever you consider o/u"? If so, please don't hold back! Mr. Watson has chosen an open and public forum to conduct and publicize his science. Please post your results and by all means submit your video! It's ok. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 17:41:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14719; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:36:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:36:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345533A0.421B earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:36:48 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hold Your Hand Up References: <199710271535.JAA05529 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3P1Na3.0.vb3.I6KLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Richard Wall, Thanks for raising the pertinent demand for detailed reports of concrete and adequate evidence, and sticking to the point. I'm looking forward to your post on "fuzzy" science. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 17:42:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14956; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:38:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:38:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34553402.74A3 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:38:26 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Bockris: common impurities]] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"AlAZy3.0.bf3.s7KLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pilot04.cl.msu.edu (pilot04.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.14]) by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08008 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (blue localhost) by pilot04.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id KAA18625; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:48:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199710271548.KAA18625 pilot04.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Bockris: common impurities] To: rmforall earthlink.net Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A Blue" In-Reply-To: <34520B3B.2B0B earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Oct 25, 97 10:07:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Rich, I find the Bockris missive a remarkable document in that it acknowledges that attitude and expectations play a significant role in the interpretation of experimental results. I would agree that this likely accounts for much of the controversy that characterizes CF investigations. The question then becomes how do you overcome subjective biases to make rational and objective evaluations of the data in order to arrive at a correct interpretation. I don't see Bockris as being very successful at doing that with respect to his own experimental results, and I futher note that he essentially asks that you give special consideration to his former student's claims -- hardly a call for an objective evaluation of results. It seems to me that one reason CF claims have survived this long is the operation of a network of "good old boys", all from within the community of electrochemists. And no matter what their level of expertise in electrochemistry the group, as a whole, demonstrated a profound lack of understanding of the physics of nuclear reactions. I would say that on occassion they even demonstrated outright contempt for nuclear physics and nuclear physicists. When it comes to the specific questions of the sources of impurities that may be significant to the claims nuclear transmutations Bockris seems to dance around the subject as he acknowleges such problems as helium content and impurities coming from glass, but what does he actually say that clarifies these issues. I think he makes an error when he suggests that the Miley electrolyte could be analyzed for impurities at the parts per billion level. In some cases that is no adequate to rule out the electrolyte and everything in contact with the electrolyte as potential sources of impurities. One must keep in mind the vast difference between the mass of material deposited on the beads and the total mass that can serve as the source for contaminants. I then find all the debate over where in the deposited layer certain elements seem to be concentrated to be well off the point. It just is not significant information. Once again I will say that I find your critiques very much on target. I don't think you should back off and attempt to be nicer about any of this. So you see it isn't just the Japanese who don't want to make critical comments about CF. Bockris and the other good old boys demonstrated from early in the debate that they would not or could not make objective evaluations of the assorted claims -- even when there are clear conflicts. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 18:13:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00669; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:08:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:08:32 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:08:20 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971028100953.1a5f5dce po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: Re: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis Resent-Message-ID: <"7PJQY2.0.GA.VaKLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com posted the following (edited for brevity) at 13:28 1997.10.27 -0800: >Mpowers wrote: >>What they don't tell you is that they augment the flame with O2. >> When I saw this I was a bit disconcerted. >> Add oxy to a stoiochiometric H2/O2 feed ?? >> For what purpose ? > >But excess O2 in the DOES burn the workpiece, if it is metal. And this adds >energy to the total flame. > That's what I thought should happen, but the steel I saw didn't appear to burn. It didn't smell burnt. It appeared to be only melted, albeit in a different manner from conventional oxy-acetylene. It appears as if the surface of the steel had been abraded as by sandblasting. There's a lot being said by the people about how it works but there's something 'hiding in the woodpile' I can tell. I'm leaving for jakarta in a couple of days and I will get one of our welders to go give it an appraisal - the gg people are attending the ASEAN trade fair there in a couple of weeks and they promised to bring a rig to play with. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Oct 27 18:14:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20611; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:10:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:10:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34553B8B.16B4 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:10:35 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Wall , vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination References: <19971027061234.AAB7156 HOME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HXP3P2.0.x15._bKLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall, thank you for a very cogent response to my critique of Arata and Zhang. I, too, am uneasy about dismissing the He-4 claim so summarily, and this morning spent two hours studying the reported evidence. I feel uneasy when the apparatus is not described in explicit detail-- for instance, just what are its dimensions, and what pressures of gases are involved in the various measured flows? I notice in Fig. 13 that a tank of He-4 is directly connected into the system. So, I conjecture that an amount of He-4 could be adsorbed on the inner walls and crevices of the whole system. I conjecture that after a sample was heated to 1300 degrees C, that immediately upon release into the exit pipe to the rest of the system, it still might be hot enough to then cause enough release of adsorbed He-4 to generate the signal in the QMS. So, what is the density and temperature distribution of that released hot sample gas in the exit pipe? Another conjecture: what other gases might be evolved by the 1300 degree C heating that might then elicit release of adsorbed He-4 in the exit pipe? Referring to Fig. 14 and the many figures like, it, I would like help from you and anyone: What does it mean? What is being laid out on the vertical and horizontal axis? What do the times refer to? Is this a known way of presenting QMS data? What are the units of the vertical scale? What is the significance of the unmown lawn of background signals? Fig. 18: What Getter material was used, and exactly how does it operate? What are the dimensions and the actual geometry of the closed QMS cell? What is the Molecular pump, and what materials does it use? What is the Standard mix gas vessel? In Fig. 19 B, What are the units on the vertical and horizontal axis? Are the straight lines actual data or merely indicative? Scientists have been misled by He-4 repeatedly since the 1920's. I am eager to find evidence that existing paradigms are being overthrown-- that's why I've been studying cold fusion reports for eight years. It is dissappointing to me to find that a search for artifacts seems to almost always succeed, but I am determined to hear and obey the actual "voice of the data". Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 00:35:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13327; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:31:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 00:31:39 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971028100953.1a5f5dce po.pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:27:53 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: GreenGas//Brown's Gas//H20 Electrolysis Resent-Message-ID: <"raeTD.0.4G3.gBQLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mpower - > I'm leaving for jakarta in a couple of days > and I will get one of our welders to go give it an > appraisal - [...] If possible, ask them to try it on aluminum and stainless steel too. Both metals are difficult for plain oxy-acetylene welding. Stainless especially gets messed up if your flame isn't just right, and even then it's pretty sloppy - at least when I try it. Oxidizing flames are usually bad all around. If O2 is added and the metals don't get all burned and frizzled, then I think that's pretty good evidence of *something* weird going on. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:10:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11643; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:06:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:06:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3455B45A.C6B0A635 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:16:02 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG 28/10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"39sEO2.0.or2.ZDULq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have updated my RMOG page with more sims. I have shown the DMEC effect stopping as the Flux gate reaches the centre line of the magnet. This shows that the coil can ONLY be shorted for a short amount of time during the Flux gate's initial entry into the air gap. Like ALL of life, timing is critical. I will load a New Design this evening. The design overcomes both static and dynamic thrust / torque loading on the bearings. It uses two disc with a central coil and two sets of magnets on the outside. The plans should be up in about 4 hours. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:12:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10316; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:08:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3455E3AC.6B80AB3C microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:37:56 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG Mk2 Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h5yHK.0.3X2.DFULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have loaded a new RMOG design to overcome both static and dynamic thrust bearing loads. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:19:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11497; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:17:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:17:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3455E5E4.748B1659 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:47:24 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Freenrg Subject: RMOG Mk2 Comments References: <19971027232126.19735.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gaWae3.0.Qp2.-NULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Aldo wrote: > > There are little thrust load losses in my generator because there are > two sets of magnets on opposing sides of the two discs which balance out > the thrust loads. > > >My goal, with this simple design is to reduce coil Open load to the > >same as the No magnet load. Once I get there, things will happen > >quick. > > Yes, if you can do this, then you will have an overunity device, since > power needed to spin it decreases when the coils are shorted. > > Pete HI Peter, Have a look at the RMOG Mk2 initial plans (RMOG 29/10/97 Update). Is this close to your unit? Have you incorporated the coil short timing in your unit? Check on the 27/10 & 28/10 updates to see what happens to the flux flowing through the flux gate at the two different positions. While the RMOG's DMEC effect exists with a full time coil short, it is VERY weak. The coil short timing restrictions really bring it out. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:38:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13889; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:35:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:35:20 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:34:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971028083153_-1308107031 emout05.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"KcozK1.0.xO3.NeULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct. 26, 1997, John Logajan asked whether Thermacore's electrolytic cell with the 10-gallon tank was in a drafty area. I visited Thermacore once, almost five years ago, in mid-December 1992. Shaubach showed me the cell, which was in a basement room with other research stuff. I'm sensitive to drafts, but I don't recall feeling any draft. I wasn't thinking about calibration constants at the time, though. The cell looked well-insulated, better than I had assumed from the photo I'd seen. From what Logajan said about calibration constants, a well-insulated cell should have a higher calibration constant than a poorly insulated cell. That appears to make the discrepancy between Thermacore's calibration results and Logajan's calibration results for a cell protected from drafts (and the Canadian results) all the greater. John: is that a reasonable inference? (And thanks for the basic info in your Oct. 26 post about how calibration constants vary.) You wrote on Oct. 26, 1997, that the worst part of Thermacore's calibration was that they did it before the experimental run. Yes, they did do a blank calibration before the experimental run. But according to you, they also did another calibration during the run, at the urging of an independent observer: see your SPF post of July 13, 1994, in *Fusion Digest* No. 2496. According to your post, that's where Thermacore's calibration constant of 0.15 C/W came from. You further reported that their blank calibration constant from before the experimental run had been 0.21 C/W. In your recent post of Oct. 26 here on Vortex-L, you noted that the calibration constants that you and the Canadians and Thermacore got covered a pretty wide range, so wide that it wasn't very useful unless one knew the exact conditions of the experiment. I agree, and I don't mean to reopen this old debate. From what I know about you and the Canadians and Thermacore, you're all good experimenters (and far better experimenters than I could ever be, judging by my experience in college science labs). It looks as if we'll just have to agree to disagree about the significance of the variations. Extreme skeptics may wish to think of the people at Thermacore as deluded bunglers. I don't. Shaubach and his colleague received me politely but with reserve. They didn't try to sell me anything. They made a living from heat, and they knew a lot about it. They struck me as being as sober as a winter's night is long. They studied that working cell for a long time, from a lot of different angles, with input from others at Thermacore and elsewhere, and I believe their results. Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:39:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13727; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:34:20 -0800 From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:33:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971028083158_1000659227 emout06.mail.aol.com> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Schnurer's Semi-Ceramic HTM Resent-Message-ID: <"wkMo02.0.KM3.QdULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John, In a post written Oct. 23, 1997 (which didn't reach my mailbox until Oct. 26!), you said that Ward had turned down offers. Do you have any idea what kind of offers he turned down, or how big they were (ballpark estimate)? By the way, there was an article in *Science* Vol. 263 (Feb. 25, 1994), pp. 1114-1116, by B. Lawn, et al., called "Making Ceramics 'Ductile.'" Any connection? Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:41:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14957; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:38:37 -0800 Message-ID: <19971028133706.29576.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.104] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design?????????????????????????? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:37:05 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"qwT6X1.0.5f3.OhULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Greg and all, I don't like to accuse anyone of anything, especially stealing ideas, but it seems strange to me that you should post your MK2 RMOG design two days after I posted a description of my two magnet, two disk, single coil design on Vortex-l. I've been working on this generator for three years. I showed it at the 1997 New Energy Symposium in Denver. I've used it as my thesis project in College. I don't care if you use my ideas that I freely gave out to you and all on this discussion, group, however, please give credit where credit is due! Pete Aldo >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:11:51 1997 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10316; > Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:08:30 -0800 >Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:08:30 -0800 >Message-ID: <3455E3AC.6B80AB3C microtronics.com.au> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:37:56 +1030 >From: Greg Watson >Organization: Greg Watson Consulting >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: List Server Freenrg >CC: List Server Vortex >Subject: RMOG Mk2 Design >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"h5yHK.0.3X2.DFULq" mx1> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12036 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >HI All, > >I have loaded a new RMOG design to overcome both static and dynamic >thrust bearing loads. > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:42:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15761; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:39:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:39:33 -0800 Message-ID: <19971028133842.6280.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.104] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design?????????????????????????? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:38:41 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"JOzK-.0.0s3.FiULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Greg and all, I don't like to accuse anyone of anything, especially stealing ideas, but it seems strange to me that you should post your MK2 RMOG design two days after I posted a description of my two magnet, two disk, single coil design on Vortex-l. I've been working on this generator for three years. I showed it at the 1997 New Energy Symposium in Denver. I've used it as my thesis project in College. I don't care if you use my ideas that I freely gave out to you and all on this discussion, group, however, please give credit where credit is due! Pete Aldo >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:11:51 1997 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10316; > Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:08:30 -0800 >Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:08:30 -0800 >Message-ID: <3455E3AC.6B80AB3C microtronics.com.au> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:37:56 +1030 >From: Greg Watson >Organization: Greg Watson Consulting >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: List Server Freenrg >CC: List Server Vortex >Subject: RMOG Mk2 Design >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"h5yHK.0.3X2.DFULq" mx1> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12036 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >HI All, > >I have loaded a new RMOG design to overcome both static and dynamic >thrust bearing loads. > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:55:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18980; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:51:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:51:30 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:49:29 +0100 (MET) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design?????????????????????????? In-Reply-To: <19971028133842.6280.qmail hotmail.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1XuwL2.0.Me4.WtULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Peter Aldo wrote: > Hello Greg and all, > > I don't like to accuse anyone of anything, especially stealing ideas, > but it seems strange to me that you should post your MK2 RMOG design two > days after I posted a description of my two magnet, two disk, single > coil design on Vortex-l. I've been working on this generator for three > years. Yes but does it work? Should you really be saying to Greg, "Don't bother, after 3 years this thing still can't make a 1 watt light bulb glow." Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:58:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19477; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:53:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:53:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3455EE09.1502D030 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:22:09 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Publish Chris's IE Smot Article? References: <3455D58A.1075208F@pavilion.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q3_3Z1.0.sl4.lvULq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rob Dowse wrote: > > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > My results are already published for "the edification of the whole world" > > as a part of the late Chris Tinsley's article on the SMOTs in Infinite > > Energy Vol. 3, #13/#14. > > I have been building SMOT's and would be VERY intrested to have a copy > of this article. Any chance of email or a posting on the list from any > one? (I know back issues are available from the magazine but if I start > to pay for every thing I'm interested in I go broke in a few months!! > Any way my results, for what they are worth, are free) HI Rob, I have a faxed copy of the article and can put it up quickly. Hey, Jed & Gene. OK to publish Chris's SMOT IE article on my site? -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 07:02:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01100; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 06:53:27 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:32:41 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: More magical recombination Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710280940_MC2-2567-2970 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ONDqp3.0.xG.anVLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Rich Murray, who apparently believes that "recombination" is a form of magic that can make any CF result vanish, suggested that problems with recombination invalidate Arata's results. This is incorrect for three reasons: 1. As Scott Little pointed out, this is a closed cell. Therefore, "if the recombiner did not work completely, the ONLY direction the Pout/Pin ratio could go is DOWN." 2. If the recombiner stopped working long enough to produce a measurable change in temperature, gases would build up and the emergency valve would pop open, or the cell would explode. Either event would be noticed. 3. At times the cell produced far more energy than the total I*V input, so recombination is not an issue in the first place. Murray also plays meaningless percentage games. He says "8 W is 7 to 5.5% of the usual input power." He imagines this makes the 8 watts difficult to measure. That's nonsense. I expect he has never used a flow calorimeter or even looked at extensive raw data from one. Even with a background of 160 watts it would be a cinch to measure 8 watts. The electrolysis power background is steady and smooth compared to the excess heat bursts, easily distinguishable. McKubre and others who use a compensation heater can measure less than 1% of total background with ease. Murray has no credibility in this field. His critiques are not worth reading, and not worth responding to. They are no better than the claptrap from Dick Blue which Murray insists on copying here. Murray's earlier critiques of Miley were filled with mistakes. I caught many of them, but I am sorry to say I missed the biggest. Miley himself was took the trouble to point it out: However the main thrust of his critiques, that the +- 15% uncertainly of the NAA invalidates the isotope ratios, is simply an error in his understanding of what we did. As stressed in the first paper, the isotope ratios were measured by SIMS while NAA was used to obtain absolute concentrations. Thus the isotope ratio uncertainties are determined from the SIMS data, not from the NAA data as Murray assumes. Consequently the table he presents (and forwarded to Morrison) is simply not applicable. For example, the uncertainly in the SIMS Cu and Ag ratios were +-2-3% of the ratio itself instead of the +-15% of each isotope concentration which he uses in the table. Thus, the uncertainties involved in all of the ratios are much smaller than he concludes. Murray ignored Miley's correction, just as he ignored mine and all of the others. As far as I know, he never retracted. I doubt that he has the guts to tell Morrison he goofed. No doubt the bozos on s.p.f. will continue to cite him and his 15% error, claiming a great victory, just as they still say CalTech and Harwell proved Pons and Fleischmann were wrong. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 07:09:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03233; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:04:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:04:25 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710281502.JAA07241 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Recombination In-Reply-To: <971028083153_-1308107031 emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Tstolper@aol.com" at "Oct 28, 97 08:34:43 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:02:56 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y1zRB2.0.Qo.txVLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Stolper wrote: > You wrote on Oct. 26, 1997, that the worst part of Thermacore's calibration > was that they did it before the experimental run. Yes, they did do a blank > calibration before the experimental run. But according to you, they also did > another calibration during the run, at the urging of an independent observer: > see your SPF post of July 13, 1994, in *Fusion Digest* No. 2496. According > to your post, that's where Thermacore's calibration constant of 0.15 C/W came > from. You further reported that their blank calibration constant from before > the experimental run had been 0.21 C/W. Thanks for digging up this old info. I've been working entirely from my particularly poor memory, so I'll accept all the older postings as more accurate descriptions of the events. > Extreme skeptics may wish to think of the people at Thermacore as deluded > bunglers. I don't. Shaubach and his colleague received me politely but with > reserve. They didn't try to sell me anything. They made a living from heat, > and they knew a lot about it. They struck me as being as sober as a winter's > night is long. They studied that working cell for a long time, from a lot of > different angles, with input from others at Thermacore and elsewhere, and I > believe their results. Since I don't know anybody who doesn't make mistakes, myself included, I am not one to demonize on the basis of oversights or miscalculations. All you can say when your experiment has a different result than that which you are trying to reproduce, is that -- surprise -- you have failed to reproduce it. Three of us independently failed to reproduce Thermacore's calibration constant based upon the design described in the Thermacore paper. We did give a hint as to what could be an alternative explanation. But Mills and Thermacore have gone on to other schemes which would need to be independently evaluated. And anyhow, they've got $10+ million in funding now so they should be able to finish the first phase of their research. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 07:11:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22252; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:05:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:05:18 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:04:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: PMOD, RMOG, and E&M Free Energy Resent-Message-ID: <"e-rlD3.0.aR5.ayVLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I had a few comments about my E&M Free Energy formula. To review it we have S = 1/T INT (Grad(H) cross B) dot d A(H) with S the free energy power density, H and B the usual magnetic field quantities, (Grad(H) cross B) the curl in H three dimensional space of B, T the time of a complete cycle of the device and INT denoting the surface integral over the area A(H) enclosed by the path of a cycle in H space. This formula comes from the standard conservation of energy for a macroscopic media. There is no question about the starting point and there is no doubt that the starting equations do not show conservation of energy for a wide range of conditions. It is rare to see this fact actually admitted in E&M texts but it is obvious and it is occasionally acknowledged. For example quoting Advanced Electrodynamics - Foundation, Theory and applications, T. W. Barnett and D. M. Grimes, World Scientific Publishing, 1995, ISBN 981-02-2095-2 , page 485 we have: "The usual expression [for the energy] may only be obtained if the medium is linear ...Besides epsilon and mu must be independent of time or any factor that depends on time. These restrictions leave out many interesting media and rapidly varying fields." Here the authors admit that a conservation equation cannot be derived under the stated conditions. My analysis actually further restricts the conditions under which energy is not conserved. If B has an isotropic dependence upon H then (Grad(H) cross B) will be zero and the free energy will be zero. Thus non-linear isotropic materials also conserve energy. That would seen to take out all of the magnetic OU devices ever proposed as not one of them have used an anisotropic magnetic material. Anisotropic materials are usually not used as they are rare, expensive and do not have any unique properties that are thought to be of interest. They are usually monocrystal materials that are grown or found in nature. In all the proposed magnetic OU devices that I have seen, there are no magnetic monocrystals included. That would seem to cut out everything except PMOD devices with the rapidly varying in time fields. Now what about the RMOG? I had initially excluded it because the area in H space could be divided into two equal area surfaces in which the curl(H) of B would be antisymmetric. This would give S = 0 . However with the latest updates on the RMOG I see that the coil is operated in a manner that breaks this symmetry. So it might work, if it had anisotropic magnetic materials. I think, but am not sure, that permanent magnets with the field near saturation may be anisotropic. If we applied a magnetic field perpendicular the magnetic field of a PM near saturation I would expect PM field to decrease because it is near saturation and the applied field will further increase the saturation. An experiment like that should be done. If there is an effect then the perpendicular field should be held constant while a field is applied along the axis of the PM, and the change in the perpendicular field should be measured. If the two derivatives of the magnetic field with respect to a change in the applied perpendicular magnetic field are different, then the curl in H space will be non-zero. That then means the OU may be possible within the framework of standard E&M theory. I would like to do this experiment but I don't have any magnetometers. If some one would like to do this, I would be available to help out over private e-mail. Greg Watson says that his devices violate conservation of energy and are based on standard physics. He may be using accepted physics to calculate the B and H fields but he has not shown any acceptable theory for the violation of conservation of energy. An experiment showing that (Grad(H) cross B) is non-zero would be of great value in establishing that RMOG type devices may be OU based on standard E&M. Further theoretical work is required to properly analyse the operation of PMOD like devices. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 07:31:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07023; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:24:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:24:52 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:19:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Attitude is Everything (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Dv3CQ2.0.Yj1.3FWLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:18:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer Subject: Attitude is Everything (fwd) Subject: Attitude is Everything [Sandy, your very first one is not a joke, but I hope you like it anyway. Fred] > ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING.........By Francie Baltazar-Schwartz > > Jerry was the kind of guy you love to hate. He was always in a good > mood and always had something positive to say. When someone would ask > him how he was doing, he would reply, "If I were any better, I would > be twins!" > > He was a unique manager because he had several waiters who had > followed him around from restaurant to restaurant. The reason the > waiters followed Jerry was because of his attitude. He was a natural > motivator. If an employee was having a bad day, Jerry was there > telling the employee how to look on the positive side of the > situation. > > Seeing this style really made me curious, so one day I went up to > Jerry and asked him, "I don't get it! You can't be a positive person > all of the time. How do you do it?" Jerry replied, "Each morning I > wake up and say to myself, Jerry, you have two choices today. You can > choose to be in a good mood or you can choose to be in a bad mood.' > I choose to be in a good mood. Each time something bad happens, I can > choose to be a victim or I can choose to learn from it. I choose to > learn from it. Every time someone comes to me complaining, I can > choose to accept their, complaining or I can point out the positive > side of life. I choose the positive side of life." > > "Yeah, right, it's not that easy," I protested. > > "Yes it is," Jerry said. "Life is all about choices. When you cut away > all the junk, every situation is a choice. You choose how you react > to situations. You choose how people will affect your mood. You choose > to be in a good mood or bad mood. The bottom line: It's your choice > how you live life." > > I reflected on what Jerry said. Soon thereafter, I left the > restaurant industry to start my own business. We lost touch, but often > thought about him when I made a choice about life instead of reacting > to it. Several years later, I heard that Jerry did something you are > never supposed to do in a restaurant business: he left the back door > open one morning and was held up at gunpoint by three armed robbers. > While trying to open the safe, his hand, shaking from nervousness, > slipped off the combination. The robbers panicked and shot him. > Luckily, Jerry was found relatively quickly and rushed to the local > trauma center. After 18 hours of surgery and weeks of intensive care, > Jerry was released from the hospital with fragments of the bullets > still in his body. I saw Jerry about six months after the accident. > When I asked him how he was, he replied, "If I were any better, I'd be > twins. Wanna see my scars?" > > I declined to see his wounds, but did ask him what had gone through > his mind as the robbery took place. "The first thing that went through > my mind was that I should have locked the back door," Jerry replied. > "Then, as I lay on the floor, I remembered that I had two choices: I > could choose to live, or I could choose to die. I chose to live. > > "Weren't you scared? Did you lose consciousness?" I asked. Jerry > continued, "The paramedics were great. They kept telling me I was > going to be fine. But when they wheeled me into the emergency room and > I saw the expressions on the faces of the doctors and nurses, I got > really scared. In their eyes, I read, 'He's a dead man. " I knew I > needed to take action." > > "What did you do?" I asked. > > "Well, there was a big, burly nurse shouting questions at me," said > Jerry. "She asked if I was allergic to anything. 'Yes,' I replied. The > doctors and nurses stopped working as they waited for my reply. I took > a deep breath and yelled, 'Bullets!' Over their laughter, I told > them, 'I am choosing to live. > > Operate on me as if I am alive, not dead." > > Jerry lived thanks to the skill of his doctors, but also because of > his amazing attitude. I learned from him that every day we have the > choice to live fully. Attitude, after all, is everything. > > You have 2 choices now: > > 1. Save or delete this mail from your mail box. 2. Forward it to > your dear ones (exclude me for this) and choose to pass this on. > > Hope, you will choose choice 2. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 07:34:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07868; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:29:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:29:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3455F6E2.9ED earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:29:54 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"4z6zh2.0.sw1.QJWLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.34]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA26217 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:13:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from HOME ([12.65.147.117]) by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAB7156 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:12:39 +0000 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: rmforall earthlink.net From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 06:12:39 +0000 Message-ID: <19971027061234.AAB7156 HOME> Rich, While you are adept at pointing out perceived deficiencies and performing satirical reductionist behavioral analysis on people who dare to consider that established paradigms could be wrong, it seems to me that you miss the main point of the paper: helium from deuterated palladium. The emphasis is not on excess heat. If the paper was cluttered with all the details you would like to know, it would be 500 pages. He could have provided much information about his ancestors, which might have been interesting, but not at all significant. Do you see my point? The fact that you might think his ancestry is significant and that he did not provide such information cannot be reasonably construed to mean that it is a poor paper. >The poor quality of the excess energy claims destroys the main thrust of >Arata and Zhang's work, that their complex and subtle measurements of >He-4 and He-3 show the levels that should exist for the claimed energy >production. A critical analysis of those measurements is beyond the >scope of my training and experience. However, I am not optimistic. > You duck the thrust of the paper by pleading ignorance. I plead ignorance as well, however, how much sophistication is required to see significance in Fig. 14 that shows three runs of the same apparatus without sample, with non-deuterated sample, and with deuterated sample. The run without sample shows no hydrogen or helium, or anything else in the little bit of energy spectrum swept repeatedly over the course of time. Does this not rule out the possibility of contamination of helium from the apparatus itself? The run with non-deuterated sample shows relatively low quantities of junk. This would have to be from the palladium. The deuterated sample shows the "coupled spectrum" that is claimed as proof of existence of "much helium." How, might I ask, would you propose, with your admittedly limited understanding, attempt to explain away what certainly appears to be 4He? I appreciate your effort in generating criticism. However, I question the wisdom of treating the main point of the experiment as a footnote. It is too important, if true, to reject out of hand. I suggest you review Arata's reference paper by G.C. Abell, et al and reference 10 of that paper for greater detail. It may help with understanding thermal desorption of helium from palladium. Finding helium in quantity in palladium is clearly anomalous, from my limited understanding. The palladium samples used for this study contained known quantities of helium from being tritiated, then aged. I don't know if anyone has attempted replication of this work, but I sure would like to see it. Since the excess heat has become such a contentious issue, it is good to see an approach to proof of existence that takes advantage of the ability to run the cell for extended periods. John O'M. Bockris provided you with his view on helium: Contamination from the air and He: My experience with He4 is second hand. We gave maybe 20 samples to the people at N. American (Nate Hoffman and Co.). Some of them had never been in a cell at all; some had been electrolyzed for a day and some three weeks. The results were that the ones which had lain in the drawer only had in them 109 atoms of He/cc; the three weeks electrolzyed 1011 atoms per cc. I don't believe there is much problem there. They were all extremely "contaminated" before we started. But .... Is it difficult to get out of the metal? Yes, it is. I had several talks with the people who did this demanding work with a special mass spectrograph. They use indective heat and melt the Pd. That was their whole and only job. I guess that, at that stage you have to trust them. end quote These palladium samples with 109 atoms He/cc: I would like to know if by "lain in the drawer," he means that they had never run in a cell, I assume that they were not ever electrolyzed. So, I find it strange that the concentration was that high. I would really like to know what preparation of palladium produces palladium black and if such preparation includes melting and cooling in a vacuum to avoid absorption of helium. Wouldn't you agree that this work is enough to inspire at least a few attempts at replication? Optomistically (in a non-B.F. Skinner way) Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 07:36:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06593; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:22:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:21:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page In-Reply-To: <199710281447.GAA08960 www.eskimo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2eSe73.0.uc1.NCWLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Albert de Vree wrote: > My name is Dr. Albert de Vree. I am a Ph.D.E.E. and we at Dactyl > Energy have realized the Tesla dream. The wheelwork of nature is found > and it works well. No input energy applied, energy in mechanical and > electrical comes from our design by rotational magnets. The theory is > well understood and works on the basis of differential electric-magnetic > vortices. The quantum physics background is known and comprises of 13 > dimensions, representing the creation of matter and energy alike. > > You can call me at 408-241-4724 > Albert de Vree > Funding for global proliferation is sought and will be obtained, I > hope, shortly. > > Sincerely Yours, > > Albert de Vree .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 08:00:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11821; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:50:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:50:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:49:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710281549.HAA18716 norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Albert de Vree From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Ytymc.0.du2.ccWLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Albert, At 07:21 AM 10/28/97 -0800, Bill Beaty wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Albert de Vree wrote: > >> My name is Dr. Albert de Vree. I am a Ph.D.E.E. and we at Dactyl >> Energy have realized the Tesla dream. The wheelwork of nature is found >> and it works well. No input energy applied, energy in mechanical and >> electrical comes from our design by rotational magnets. The theory is >> well understood and works on the basis of differential electric-magnetic >> vortices. The quantum physics background is known and comprises of 13 >> dimensions, representing the creation of matter and energy alike. >> >> You can call me at 408-241-4724 >> Albert de Vree > >> Funding for global proliferation is sought and will be obtained, I >> hope, shortly. >> >> Sincerely Yours, >> >> Albert de Vree > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page Do you have a model prototype demonstrating greater output than input? What is the output power? Input power? If so, a simple way to get funding for your discovery is to demonstrate your unit to your local newpaper reporter. Once the news gets on the API newswire, people, stockbrokers, and corporations will want to buy and get a license from to build the unit. You could also start your own public company by offering stock to the public. Another way is to build your units yourself and selling them. And once you have enough capital you can expand, just like Apple Computer got started small and grew. If so, are you selling any units currently? Can I buy one? Sincerely, Michael. > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 08:29:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17421; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:21:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:21:11 -0800 Message-ID: <345610DB.DCD12909 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:50:43 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design?????????????????????????? References: <19971028133842.6280.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nPTz31.0.3G4.r3XLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Aldo wrote: > > Hello Greg and all, > > I don't like to accuse anyone of anything, especially stealing ideas, > but it seems strange to me that you should post your MK2 RMOG design two > days after I posted a description of my two magnet, two disk, single > coil design on Vortex-l. I've been working on this generator for three > years. I showed it at the 1997 New Energy Symposium in Denver. I've used > it as my thesis project in College. I don't care if you use my ideas > that I freely gave out to you and all on this discussion, group, > however, please give credit where credit is due! > > Pete Aldo HI Peter, I have not seen your design. I did ask you to send me the magnetic circuit and I would do a QF sim for you, but I never got a answer. If you would kindly sent me the plans, specs, etc, I will be pleased to publish them on my RMOG site with full credit to you. The more the merrier. Please recheck the 29/10 update. Be sure to hit reload. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 08:35:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01642; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:30:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3456251D.B74B83D4 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:47:09 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Attitude is Everything (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4DKrU1.0.VP.VCXLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you John. (I had two choices) hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 10:13:33 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09243; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:59:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:59:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199710281800.NAA09654 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Publish Chris's IE Smot Article? Date: Tue, 28 Oct 97 14:06:19 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" , cc: "List Server Vortex" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"jqCNS1.0.CG2.kVYLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I have a faxed copy of the article and can put it up quickly. > >Hey, Jed & Gene. OK to publish Chris's SMOT IE article on my site? Yes, Greg, provided you print source and include link to our web page, as I am sure you will do anyway. Go to it! We're still waiting to see some hardware here!!! Best, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 11:49:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03669; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:44:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:44:09 -0800 Message-Id: <199710281942.LAA19580 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:39:31 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4p9ei1.0.1v.62aLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill, This sounds like a parody of a free energy inventor... is it for real? Dactyl energy? 13 Dimensions? Global Proliferation? Gee, I hope I get to write like this someday... :-)) No offense to Dr. de Vree if it is for real, it just sounds like a parody... Fred > > > My name is Dr. Albert de Vree. I am a Ph.D.E.E. and we at Dactyl > > Energy have realized the Tesla dream. The wheelwork of nature is found > > and it works well. No input energy applied, energy in mechanical and > > electrical comes from our design by rotational magnets. The theory is > > well understood and works on the basis of differential electric-magnetic > > vortices. The quantum physics background is known and comprises of 13 > > dimensions, representing the creation of matter and energy alike. > > > > You can call me at 408-241-4724 > > Albert de Vree > > > Funding for global proliferation is sought and will be obtained, I > > hope, shortly. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 12:48:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20648; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:39:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:39:41 -0800 Message-ID: <19971028203843.13473.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.177] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:38:37 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"PlcSv3.0.X25.BsaLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 08:30:23 1997 >Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (smartlst mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) > by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01077; > Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:26:06 -0800 (PST) >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17421; > Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:21:11 -0800 >Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:21:11 -0800 >Message-ID: <345610DB.DCD12909 microtronics.com.au> >Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:50:43 +1030 >From: Greg Watson >Organization: Greg Watson Consulting >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg >Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design?????????????????????????? >References: <19971028133842.6280.qmail hotmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"nPTz31.0.3G4.r3XLq" mx1> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12051 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >Peter Aldo wrote: >> >> Hello Greg and all, >> >> I don't like to accuse anyone of anything, especially stealing ideas, >> but it seems strange to me that you should post your MK2 RMOG design two >> days after I posted a description of my two magnet, two disk, single >> coil design on Vortex-l. I've been working on this generator for three >> years. I showed it at the 1997 New Energy Symposium in Denver. I've used >> it as my thesis project in College. I don't care if you use my ideas >> that I freely gave out to you and all on this discussion, group, >> however, please give credit where credit is due! >> >> Pete Aldo > >HI Peter, > >I have not seen your design. I did ask you to send me the magnetic >circuit and I would do a QF sim for you, but I never got a answer. Hi Greg, I did not supply you with my design since I was counseled to keep it under wraps until I got the proper protection. Like I said I don't like to accuse people for unsubstantiated actions, and I WASN'T accusing you, however I hope you understand why I was quite shocked to see the MK2 design and its similarities to my design right after I described mine to you. >If you would kindly sent me the plans, specs, etc, I will be pleased >to publish them on my RMOG site with full credit to you. The more the merrier. Thank you very much for your offer. I will now be happy to send you my generator information to add to your web site. I have a color picture drawings, and test data. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Peter Aldo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 12:55:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23289; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:50:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:50:37 -0800 Message-ID: <19971028204310.25861.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.177] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:43:06 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"QBQeT3.0.mh5.S0bLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 05:54:45 1997 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18980; > Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:51:30 -0800 >Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:51:30 -0800 >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:49:29 +0100 (MET) >From: Martin Sevior >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design?????????????????????????? >In-Reply-To: <19971028133842.6280.qmail hotmail.com> >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Resent-Message-ID: <"1XuwL2.0.Me4.WtULq" mx1> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12042 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >Yes but does it work? Should you really be saying to Greg, "Don't bother, after >3 years this thing still can't make a 1 watt light bulb glow." Martin, Please NEVER put quotations around something someone NEVER said. That is slander. I never said don't bother, after 3 years, blah, blah, blah...... I encourage anyone to do further research on this type on generator. My generator does work in that it requires less energy to spin it when a load is applied than when the coil is open, although it is not yet overunity. Rome wasn't built in a day (or three years). Pete Aldo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 13:44:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00185; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:32:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:32:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34567F32.1ABB keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:11:30 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"f_38D.0.k2.bdbLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <34566BFE.C67 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:49:34 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On sails to move the pyramid stones.... Hi Rick et. al.! Most of the time we were on the Gizeh Plateau, usually around Cheops or Khefren, there was very little if any wind, and that was for about 6 days....there were dustdevils of very short duration and limited to a very small area as they raced across the plain, but nothing near the wind you would need to sustain a sail staying up and providing any kind of useful push....even when on top of the pyramid at night, there was only an occasional light breeze that would drop off quickly... Your idea is quite different but unless they had ways to control the winds, I can't see it having worked.. My favorite premise is the use of sound (as by Keely and Leedskalnin) to lessen the weight of the stones....as Cayce said when asked how the pyramids were built; 'stone floats in air as iron floats in water'. A cryptic reference to the bible where the prophet Elisha was overseeing the building of a new religious commune on the banks of the river Jordan. He found one of the students sitting on the river bank, crying. When asked what was the matter, the student said he had borrowed the axe of a woodcutter friend and while chopping wood, the iron axehead had flown off and sunk in the river. Elisha said not to worry, inserted his staff into the water (probably chanted something, though not stated in the text) and within seconds the iron axehead had floated up to the surface (NOT ABOVE) of the water....the student retrieved it and all was well.... >From my concept of this event, the priest used the staff touching the water as a conduit for his chant, the vibrations were conducted into the water where they resonated with IRON, to cause it to lose weight and become buoyant enough to float to the surface... Years ago, I read a translation of a series of pictographs showing the levitation of a huge stone block....it showed the covering of four sides of the stone by wetted papyrus with one exposed face...a priest struck the exposed face ONCE with a specially carved wooden rod....the rod was pulled back, then touched again to the stone face....the stone would then float up in the air and could be moved like a styrofoam block for the length of 3 bowshots..... My concept of what happened, the rod was specially carved to produce the vibrations needed to suppress gravity inflows....much like a frequency divider/multiplier (I don't know which direction)...so when the rod is first struck against the stone, it SAMPLED the natural resonant frequency of the stone....when it was pulled back, the rod altered the natural frequency (conjugated??) to what was necessary to alter the gravity...then the rod was touched to the stone, where these new frequencies were injected into the stone, suppressed/reflected from the wetted papyrus covered surfaces, projecting downwards to cause lift....so there.... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 13:51:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03291; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:44:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:44:58 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710281942.LAA19580 mail1.halcyon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:41:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page Resent-Message-ID: <"AYofg3.0.qo.LpbLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred - > No offense to Dr. de Vree if it is for real, it just > sounds like a parody... ... of DePalma or Tewari? Rotating magnets, differential vortices - sounds like someone's getting high efficiencies from a homopolar. Jiang Zemin just visited here. He scored points by being very gracious and intellectual, and even played "Aloha Oe" on the steel guitar (!) at the governors mansion, which really wowed people here. During the visit, there was an ad run on the radio by some Chinese power company praising Jiang Zemin, saying things like "he's not considered a politician in China, but more of an intellectual...quotes Mark Twain..." and on and on. I loved it the first time through, and got several hard laughs from it. It took me until the second time I heard the spot to realize this is what blatant, unsophisticated political propaganda sounds like - a hilarious parody. It was quite a shock when I realized the radio spot was real. This man is a mass murderer. His foot is on the necks of his own people as well as that of the Tibetans. He sells nuclear stuff to Iran. Does it really matter how sweetly he plays the steel guitar? These days, if it sounds just like a parody, it's probably real. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 14:19:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06402; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:10:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:10:16 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34567F32.1ABB keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:06:59 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building] Resent-Message-ID: <"7TcI11.0.yZ1.4BcLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry - > Most of the time we were on the Gizeh Plateau, > usually around Cheops or Khefren, there was very > little if any wind, and that was for about 6 days.... I haven't found a weather archive yet where they have yearly wind data for that site, but I had thought it was in a band of prevailing winds, and that it was windy there much of the year. You know, move a bunch of blocks on the windy days, concentrate on quarrying and setting the rest of the time, with muscle power filling in a bit on the heavy lifting. Point is, if you factor in such a huge power source even part of the time, you can eliminate a large portion of the expectedly necessary workforce. > My favorite premise is the use of sound (as by > Keely and Leedskalnin) to lessen the weight of the > stones....as Cayce said when asked how the > pyramids were built; 'stone floats in air as iron > floats in water'. I love all those old stories about floating rocks in the air. They're worldwide, roughly consistent (acoustics) and found across many cultures and timelines. I wish those stories were true, but how come there isn't a shred of reliable modern lab evidence or even well witnessed anecdote*** about sound affecting the mass of stone? If it's one thing that can be said with certainty about our modern western mechanical society is that it's *damn* noisy! All our masonry should have floated away long ago, you know? We have far better witness evidence of aliens and UFOs than for acousticly induced mass reduction. On the other hand, there are all these 'impossible' constructions like Tiahuanaco sitting around (40 to 60 ton blocks, quarry site over 40 miles of rough terrain away). That's real physical evidence that they transported enormous blocks great distances - unfortunately, it just doesn't show *how* they did it. ***Ok, there's that Tibetan story, but it's not well witnessed or corraborated. How about a bunch of witnesses to a stone bench floating away from a bus stop where some guy's playing a boom box at 125 decibels? Ommmmm... ... whoompa-whumpa whoompa - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 14:33:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13029; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:16:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:16:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3456D4C5.56C itl.net> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:16:37 -0800 From: nick7 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: SMOT sunrise? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bZupW3.0.TB3.FHcLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, Greg's SMOT kit status page promises those of us who have ordered one, that he will start "shipping" on October 29th. As "number 8" on his list, I am waiting with baited breath. When it arrives, and if it works as promised (subject to a few tests I intend to do to hopefully eliminate external sources "energising" the motion) I will then feel somewhat stunned, as I imagine will the more hard edged and lucid members of this list, such as Barry. *IF* the SMOT device demonstrates multiple "rollarounds" (away from its inventor) this will immediately validate Greg's claim. This will therefore make Greg's claims for his other devices much more likely to be true. Therefore, it would appear that it *is* possible for "permanent" magnet devices to create/channel usable energy from who knows where. Subject to the effects being capable of being scaled up with development, it looks as if we will soon be witness to the beginning of the end of current ways of energy supply with all of their deleterious effects. If our SMOTs work, then many of the claims for "overunity" devices in the past may also have had some substance. That they came to nothing may, therefore, have been due to the personality of the inventors. Greg seems refreshingly free from Jed's "inventors disease" - maybe this is the key we have been waiting for. As an environmentalist, I have an interest in new energy sources as a solution to many of the environmental and social crises that we are storing up for ourselves with our current lifestyles. Some on Vortex may have seen my article on this subject in INFINITE ENERGY magazine (issue #7). Since then, I have developed my ideas on the subject but I seem to have been waiting for a breakthrough in the field for too long. Will this be "it"? I hope so. If it all comes to nothing, then I will probably stop wasting any more time expecting a miracle - if someone like Greg can't show us a working device, then I think we can assume that there is nothing to the OU field but wishful thinking, deluded or deceptive inventors and snake oil salesmen. Whether the SMOT sinks or swims will be a pivotal moment for OU. If it "swims" it will be a pivotal moment in the history of the world. Infinite energy at the point of use will transform humanity. Nick Palmer Group co-ordinator Jersey (UK) Friends of the Earth From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 14:58:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20021; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:50:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:50:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34569195.48A1 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:29:57 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT sunrise? References: <3456D4C5.56C itl.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Gq0eF1.0.ku4.ZmcLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Regarding Smots Gnorts! The original version of the magnetic ramp was Stewart Harris' TOMI device. The buildit file is posted at; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/tomibild.htm The main difference between the SMOT and the TOMI is use of a ball bearing instead of a roll of stacked magnets to form a cylinder. I and many people I know built the TOMI and it does indeed move up two separate ramps as Stewart claimed. The main problem is stability of the cylinder roller as it moves up the ramps and all the tinkering needed to get it setup. But it is worth the time because it is amazing to see the thing run. This configuration does no useful work, but there might be an arrangement where it could be made to be self-running. Chuck Hendersons daughter entered her TOMI in a local school science fair competition and won first place. I made a version using circular plastic railroad tracks in a 3' circle. I was unable to line the magnets up in such a way as to provide sufficient thrust to cause it to drive a 'boxcar with repelling magnets' against the track resistance which was compounded by centrifugal compression against the outside track as it moved. The plastic tracks are amazingly smooth when not subjected to the magnet weights. As stated in the file above, this circular track is similar to what Searl claimed to have used for a demonstration device. The Finsrud device which I am told has been running for months in Finland without any outside power, only moving magnets, is the closest thing I've seen to actually tapping the energy...of course, the Finsrud device does no useful work, barely able to drive itself, but 100% is a start...a short document on it is at; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/finsrud.htm I spoke with Richard White who appeared on Baton Rouge TV showing a rotary wheel which used magnets on the inside rim....it was much like the Peregrinus wheel from the 1400's....Richard said he would let a few of us come out to see the machine, photo and video it, as well as to interview him but only after he had filed a patent application....we offered to sign nondisclosures and all but he said he would prefer the patent app. Just so....later in the conversation while discussing the machine running itself, he said no, that was not the case...he used high density rare earth magnets, one of which is attached to a solenoid that is tripped from a 12vdc signal...this occurs when the wheel is at about 320 degrees of its rotation and serves to 'kick' the wheel over the hump...although the TV interview said the device was self-running, Richard said it was not quite at that point but he thought it would be soon....it sounded like he did not want to say it was self-running at this point, as if he decided now was not the time to be making that claim....I haven't contacted him lately but will do so and find out the status of his work...perhaps he will let us see the machine by now.... There is nothing new under the sun, only variations or rediscoveries of lost information.....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 14:59:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20463; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:52:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:52:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3456920D.21D2 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:31:57 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Info about new motor] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------42FC77974CF6" Resent-Message-ID: <"zT9YY3.0.Z_4.MocLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------42FC77974CF6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks! Here is a response and URL I received from Dr. de Vree.. --------------42FC77974CF6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from emout31.mail.aol.com (emout31.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.14]) by centurion.flash.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA17746 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:48:10 -0600 (CST) From: Dactylon1 aol.com Received: (from root localhost) by emout31.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA00759 for jdecker keelynet.com; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:47:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:47:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971028174110_458429916 emout02.mail.aol.com> To: jdecker keelynet.com Subject: Re: Info about new motor X-UIDL: fa3ff34afce7cd29e762a64f1580dd4c X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 In a message dated 97-10-28 15:23:35 EST, you write: << Hi Dr. DeVree! Bill Beaty posted your email about the discovery of a means to tap the wheelwork of nature as proposed by Tesla. I am most interested in this as are countless of thousands of others people and would like more information. >> We have the device working and well understood as to the Quantum Physics background. We are now building the propper controls such that the device does not over spin and disintegrates. Further the device produces plasma balls (like ball lightening) which need to be contained. The is no energy source other than the 13 dimensionality of Space Time. Differential Electric Magnetic Vortex is the key. See: http://members.aol.com/dactylon1/index.html also linked from/to http://zenergy.com I will be in Houston to discuss funding. Right now I cannot say if investment opportuniites are available, pending my discussions with offshore bankers. However, I am looking for good people and credible sources for possible participation in the proliferation of the technology and business structures. Albert de Vree, Ph.D.E.E. Time = Negative Space (4 dim) Tesla Knew it all.... --------------42FC77974CF6-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 15:27:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27320; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:17:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:17:26 -0800 Message-ID: <345697FA.53C7 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:57:14 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KXfPJ2.0.kg6.4AdLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick! Yep, as with much of 'alternative science'.....we need proof that anyone 'skilled in the art' can duplicate....I look to the stories as inspiration and for comments that correlate with other stories, from those comments we might be able to determine a theory that can be tested..... What amazes me is that someone was able to do this without sound blaster cards, synthesizers, electric power sources, frequency generators and all the toys and tools we have at our disposal.....are we so collectively stupid that we can't duplicate just one of these on a small scale? Leedskalnin knew something, without a doubt... Any rock and roll concert has all kinds of high amplitude acoustics running rampant throughout the facility, but I think the key is that the frequency(ies) must be sustained to produce the effect, kind of a trigger effect when the mass reaches an avalanche point, that's when the effect kicks in. Years ago, I had two stone blocks cut, both about 1 foot cubes, one from limestone, the other from granite....my neighbors did not like the sounds from my experiment so I shut it down....nothing conclusive to that point...I would have been ecstatic with just a slight weight loss, not complete cancellation.....guess its time to resume that experiment but with some changes based on additional insights over the years....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 15:37:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA31130; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:29:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:29:06 -0800 Message-ID: <34567526.E36569CD microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:58:38 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: SMOT Shipping Schedule update Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uvx9h2.0.Bc7.0LdLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Updated info on the SMOT Mk4 shipping schedule can be found at http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/smotkitstatus.html There is also info on how the SMOT Mk4 rollaround works. Its more complex than you may have thought. I should have done it yesterday. Sorry. Anyone know how to make 48 hour days? -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 15:58:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05808; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:52:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:52:54 -0800 Message-ID: <34567ABE.AFB5F62C microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:22:30 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: PMOD Ferrite Rods Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CXaZY1.0.OQ1.HhdLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have today secured 12 of the 9 x 10mm ferrite rods I am using in my PMOD development. If you wish to duplicate the PMOD results and REPORT your results here, I will send you rod. No Cost. That way, we all are using the same material and there is no MAGIC. Just send me your snail mail address. First come, first served. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 16:28:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02578; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:43:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:43:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3456786B.D450B178 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:12:35 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Greg Watson's RMOG MK2 design References: <19971028203843.13473.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3cqsN1.0.2e.7YdLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Peter Aldo wrote: > > Hi Greg, I did not supply you with my design since I was counseled to > keep it under wraps until I got the proper protection. Like I said I > don't like to accuse people for unsubstantiated actions, and I WASN'T > accusing you, however I hope you understand why I was quite shocked to > see the MK2 design and its similarities to my design right after I > described mine to you. Peter, I don't know if I read your post on the twin rotors first or not. To me, the design I posted was a logical progression from the work I had already posted. What is the old saying "Great minds think alike, fools seldom differ"? > >If you would kindly sent me the plans, specs, etc, I will be pleased > >to publish them on my RMOG site with full credit to you. The more the > merrier. > > Thank you very much for your offer. I will now be happy to send you my > generator information to add to your web site. I have a color picture > drawings, and test data. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Look forward to posting them for you. > Peter Aldo Hi Peter, Have you tried the RMOG's positional dependent coil shorting method? If you haven't and decide to implement this, use the photo interruptor and the circuit I have published. Its much better than the reed relay idea. Have you tried the RMOG's self motoring idea. I makes experimentation much easier as you don't need another lossy drive motor to contend with. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 17:25:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA31443; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:20:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:20:42 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:12:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Greg Watson , vortex , John Schnurer Subject: 48 hour days Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"dtv4B1.0.Dh7.fzeLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Greg and Vo., I am not very good at math but the last time I asked John Wheeler a question he, very kindly, wrote back saying he was not qualified to answer. The question I asked was to have him critique a method for reducing noise in semiconductors. ..... but that is another story ... In any event he sent me his latest work on time. Which brings me to Greg's question. Here in Ohio we change, to andfrom "Daylight Saving Time" a quaint custom. I think the math folks will have to help out here but if Greg stes his clock to one side of GMT, or Zulu or Universal Time ... I always liked GMT time best... so, .... so BRITISH! .... anyway ... if he sets to one side of GMT and then, 23 hours later he sets to the other ... I think he can pick up 47 hours and some ... One of you math guys want to help out on this? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 17:43:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03932; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:41:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:41:30 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34569442.90E math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:41:22 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZNas6.0.Hz.9HfLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Albert de Vree wrote: > > > My name is Dr. Albert de Vree. I am a Ph.D.E.E. and we at Dactyl > > Energy have realized the Tesla dream. I'm betting that "we" means "I". Good luck. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 18:15:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12955; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:10:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:10:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34569AE0.6E901B18 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:39:36 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Details Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"V8_b1.0.BA3.-hfLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI All, I have updated the SMOT Mk3 status page with more details of the rollarounds trough. Dimensions and trough contours can be studied. Thanks to Stefan for the call. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 18:54:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25344; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:48:05 -0800 Message-Id: <3456B63C.C4D23FE8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:06:20 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: 48 hour day Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XAJGo1.0.vB6.ZFgLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg, dont be hurry. I know recent letters is going to stress you and try to keep in schedule, but your health is more important and the World can wait some more weeks or months as they waited some hundred years. Use John math. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 19:30:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05799; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:25:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:25:48 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Helium-Helino, counterpart to the Hydrino-Electrino? Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:23:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce41a$12091900$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Wi2hL1.0.VQ1.wogLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Circa 1928, Davis and Barnes did a very clever experiment with Alpha particles (He++ and He+) where they matched the velocity of electrons with the 54.4 ev and 27.2 (24.6?) ev electron velocities of the electrons and detected the ions and neutralized Helium atoms. I can't recall which physics literature that they published in. Anyhow, there might be a mechanism similar to Hydrino-Deutrino-Electrino formation, especially with absorbtion of Light Leptons. This might explain reactions like 2He4 + 13Al27 = 15P30 + neutron, with alphas from Polonium (5-7 Mev) "the first man-made radioactivity". Could our Sun be "burning" Helium Too? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 21:32:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA31936; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:27:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:27:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:29:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page In-Reply-To: <199710281942.LAA19580 mail1.halcyon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9Xrgj2.0.mo7.XaiLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Fred Epps wrote: > > No offense to Dr. de Vree if it is for real, it just sounds like a > parody... > > Fred > > > > > > My name is Dr. Albert de Vree. I am a Ph.D.E.E. and we at Dactyl > > > Energy have realized the Tesla dream. The wheelwork of nature is found {snippage} > > > > > > You can call me at 408-241-4724 > > > Albert de Vree > > > > > Funding for global proliferation is sought and will be obtained, I > > > hope, shortly. > > > Somebody wanna email him and find out? Aeea 408 prefix 241 is Santa Clara, CA (block or so east of San Tomas Expressway in a redidential - industrial zone ... with University of Santa Clara in the approximate vicinity). Plenty of Silicon Valley start-ups , too. Y'know this has gotta be a joke. I'm guessing this guy is a student at USC. Very Funny , dude :-)! Jim Ostrowski > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 22:07:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07885; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:59:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:59:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3456D0C3.94D50433 microtronics.com.au> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:29:31 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: SMOT Infinite Energy Article up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HO3Qk1.0.0x1.G3jLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, The late Christ Tinsley's SMOT report for Infinite Energy is now up. It at : http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson/smot-ie-tinsley.html or you can get there from the SMOT page. Thanks to Michael Randall and Dr. Eugene Mallove. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 22:31:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14186; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:26:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:26:25 -0800 Message-ID: <01BCE3F9.9374D2C0.reed zenergy.com> From: Reed Huish Reply-To: "reed zenergy.com" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Comments from Science Misconceptions page Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:28:53 -0700 Organization: Zenergy Corporation X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2DJYP1.0.QT3.ESjLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > Y'know this has gotta be a joke. I'm guessing this guy is a student > at > USC. Very Funny , dude :-)! > Albert DeVree is for real. He and is partner told me they built a working prototype a while back, but alas as what happens with many of these 'stories' the prototype was destroyed by excess power output. DeVree is seeking for funding to build another prototype to prove his science is sound. I know his writing can get a little out of hand, and it turns many people off. - Reed Zenergy http://zenergy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 22:31:26 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14895; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:29:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:29:36 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <345697FA.53C7 keelynet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:40:43 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building] Resent-Message-ID: <"h3UV61.0.9e3.EVjLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry - > Years ago, I had two stone blocks cut, both about 1 > foot cubes, one from limestone, the other from > granite....my neighbors did not like the sounds > from my experiment so I shut it down....nothing > conclusive to that point... One way to pump acoustic power into rocks or whatever is with tuning forks or similar solidly attached to them. Water-to-rock also provides better coupling (acoustic impedence matching) than just air-to-rock, and you can keep the neighbors happy since your experiment is then going on underwater in a trough or barrel. But at least you tried! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 22:32:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15377; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:30:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:30:27 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3456D4C5.56C itl.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:18:32 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT sunrise? Resent-Message-ID: <"1dTSd2.0.1m3._VjLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick - > Whether the SMOT sinks or swims will be a > pivotal moment for OU. You sure you need that much riding on Greg's gizmo? If it does work it might be due to some conventional reason outside of the ZPE/boundless-free-energy realm. On the other hand if it doesn't work, does that necessarily say anything about CF or other technologies being looked at nowdays? Or the ZPE/boundless-free-energy realm in general? Personally, I don't think so. I do hope he ships and the darn things work, though. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Oct 28 22:46:19 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21777; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:43:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 22:43:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34570086.40D5 keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:23:18 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AnzyR.0.AK5.CijLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rick! I have FAR FROM GIVEN UP....just a slightly different approach...new insights all the time...especially from Russia.......seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 00:43:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12750; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:39:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 00:39:56 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:39:52 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex cc: Greg Watson , John Schnurer Subject: Re: One hand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SAyOZ1.0.273.QPlLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, John Schnurer wrote: >> Based on the description from Greg Watson I was able to build and >>verify the following: >> >> I made replication of basic SMOT work. Design is a little >>different than Greg Watson's but demonstrates principle. >> Two rows of magnets on ferromagnetic backing were used. >> Steel ball bearings were carried up and incline and left the end >>of the track. All bearings, 3/8, 1/2, 7/8 and 1-1/4 inch diamters were >>all carried up with no adjustment required for different bearing sizes. >> This work was done and reported here on vo some months ago. >> >> JHS >> PS: Very cool thing. >> Hands on building, beats any vaporware -eh :> ?Now, 'WHY' is it leaving the end of the track? My FIRST attempt was *SO* Impressive I revisualize it when I close my eyes at night (Every %$# NIGHT!).. and smile myself to sleep :) Zzzz IT IS (o/u) THERE!! ---- Agreed, VERY COOL THING!! -=se=- ps: Greg is plagued too with the same nightmare (err sweet Dream :) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 01:57:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02674; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:55:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:55:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 02:55:08 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au, billb@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Delayed Email ? In-Reply-To: <971027043531_-90912322 emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-Dvi11.0.gf.yVmLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 27 Oct 1997 JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: >>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 04:35:32 -0500 (EST) >>From: JNaudin509 aol.com >>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>To: vortex-l eskimo.com >>Cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au, billb@eskimo.com >>Subject: Delayed Email ? >>Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:36:04 -0800 (PST) >>Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >> >>An other example of delayed Email below : >>Message sent by Greg : >><< >> Received: (from smartlst localhost) >> by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23149; >> Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) >> =====^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^=================Message sent stamp >> Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) >> Message-ID: <344FDA96.50FE23BF microtronics.com.au> >> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:34 +0930 >> From: Greg Watson >>>> >>Message received date : >><< Suj : RMOG Builders >> Date : 27/10/1997 04:21:02 >>======^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^==========Message receive stamp >> From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) >> Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com >> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com (List Server Freenrg) >> CC: vortex-l eskimo.com (List Server Vortex) >>>> >> >>Why this delay ? >> >>Jean-Louis Naudin >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>-------------------------------- >> >>On 27/10/1997 04:21:02 , Greg wrote : >> >><< Suj : RMOG Builders >> Date : 27/10/1997 04:21:02 >> From: gwatson microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson) >> Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com >> To: freenrg-l eskimo.com (List Server Freenrg) >> CC: vortex-l eskimo.com (List Server Vortex) >> >> HI Jean-Louis, Ken and others, >> .... >>(snip ) >> -- >> Best Regards, >> Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson >> >> >> ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >> Return-Path: >> Received: from relay16.mail.aol.com (relay16.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.72]) >>by air17.mail.aol.com (v35) with SMTP; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:21:02 -0500 >> Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49]) >> by relay16.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) >> with ESMTP id TAA22872; >> Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:21:20 -0400 (EDT) >> Received: (from smartlst localhost) >> by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23149; >> Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) >> Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:16:13 -0700 (PDT) >> Message-ID: <344FDA96.50FE23BF microtronics.com.au> >> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:34 +0930 >> From: Greg Watson >> Organization: Greg Watson Consulting >> >> >> Jean, at first I was going to say "that's AOL for you!", BUT, Looking at your provided headers, THIS *IS* WIERD! Friday 24th October 8:45am Austrialia = START .Start: left the 23rd - from smartlist* RECEIVED <--Time zone OK .ListServe on the 24th - ok Austrailia is AHEAD? <--maybe .relay16.aol to the 27th - ahh AOL <--but no! .air17.mail.aol on the 26th! -------- weird -------- I do see - and Don't understand the "Return Path" above to vortex-l-request eskimo.com ... the additional 'request' bothers me?! did you ask for conformation of DELIVERED mail? does bill's -l script WAIT for reply??? -------- you do have a bug (of sorts) from the little i know. -------- again weird, I hit Austrailia in about 17 seconds and you've got a 4 day loop or filter in there somehow.. aol or eskimo one i'd guess.. sorry i can't help you out more. -------- lastly, is this with most/all mail from greg/vortex-l? or random??? -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 04:16:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03729; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:12:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:12:32 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Critique of Rich Murray's First Arata Critique Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:10:17 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCE439.B5DD9DC0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971029121525326.AAA118 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"HpS3i2.0.Aw.lWoLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCE439.B5DD9DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich has been very free with his criticism of other's work. I thought it appropriate to apply the same standard to one of his critiques, that of the Arata & Zhang paper I sent him. His analysis is deeply flawed. The paper is full of real world data. His first critique discusses the calorimitry and he concludes that it is noisy, worthless data. This is not true. He misreads the graphs he discusses, which show clear evidence of physical processes at work with long-term large energy yields with some noise present. He apparently expects the basic anomalous energy process to proceed at a steady pace, so that any unexplained variation is dismissed as "noise". I suspect that few people in the Vortex group have this report, which has not been published in IE. If there are requests for the actual curves discussed, I will scan and post them. The calorimitry support the rest of the A&Z experiment. Details are in the lengthy (19 K) attachment. Mike Carrell ------=_NextPart_000_01BCE439.B5DD9DC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Critique of Murray's Critique.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: Critique of Murray's Critique (Text Document) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Critique of Murray's Critique.txt" Rich Murray has been free with his criticism of papers and reports by = established scientists, so it is appropriate that his critiques be held = to the same standards which he applies to others. I will begin with his = October 25 review of the Arata/Zhang paper. This hasn't been published = in IE, and apparently only a few of vortex members have it. I got my = copy from Gene Mallove and made a copy for Rich, which he acknowledged. >I have spent two hours reviewing.... Four pages describe the apparatus = and >calorimetry, and are the focus of this critique Two hours are barely enough to get an understanding of this paper unless = you are already expert in the field, which neither Rich nor I am. In = making a critique one should study the paper until one understands the = scope and thrust of the thesis presented before one begins to evaluate = the supporting evidence. Otherwise, a critique can become a literary = criticism of grammar and style with no relevance to the real issue at = hand.=20 In the case at hand the fundamental question is whether 4He and 3He, = both nuclear products, are produced in deuterated palladium cathodes in = electrolytic cells, and is the presence of these elements related to an = excess heat (anomalous energy) signature. A secondary issue, which takes = up a substantial part of the paper, is an exposition of a theory of how = 4He and 3He can be produced within a Pd lattice.=20 Rich goes on to raise the issue of recombination, even though the cell = is closed and a substantial mass labeled "catalyst" is shown in a = cross-section of the cell in Fig. 5, which is schematic but one could = assume is not grossly disproportioned. Scott Little has pointed out that = incomplete recombination - if it exists - would reduce the apparent = anomalous energy produced. Rich as acknowledged his error.=20 >The electrolyte is .1M LiOH in D2O, volume and flow rate not given. Rich has not understood Fig 5, which clearly shows a helical coil = carrying cooling water submerged in the electrolyte. The electrolyte = clearly sits there in the closed cell and does not flow anyplace. He is = confusing the Arata cell with Patterson cells, where the electrolyte = flows through the cell. Flow calorimitry is used on the cooling water, = but such is so standard in usage as not to merit space in the paper.=20 Rich goes on to note that dimensions and assays of the Pt anode and Pd = cathode are not given. Major transmutation is not the issue at hand, so = detailed assays are not an issue here. The issue is 4He and 3He and = heat. The matter of solubility of He in Pd is crucial and adequately = dealt with.=20 >The cathode is hollow and contains for (a) 3 gm Pd black powder...The = method >of sealing of the cathode is not described. "It seems that Pc = [pressure] inside >closed type DS-cathodes will be rising up several = thousand [atm] which is >estimated from deformation of outside = appearance..." =20 Rich apparently does not understand the reason for this cathode = construction or the import of the internal pressure, which is discussed = on pp 46-7 of the report. This relates to the efficacy of electrolysis = in generating enough pressure to achieve the 90% loading necessary to = initiate the AE reactions. The Pd black powder augments this process in = a way I do not fully understand.=20 >This suggest the possibility of leaks, which could generate some of the = data=20 >spikes. This is pure and baseless speculation. There is no evidence that leaks = occurred.=20 Rich gives no mechanism for how a leak could cause data spikes followed = by hours of AE output. If a leak occurred, it would so change the = internal conditions of the cathode that the experiment would fail. No = such evidence is in the data.=20 Rich goes on to discuss some of the graphs.=20 >Figure 8(a) shows Cell power (excess energy) over 4750 hours, varying = in >what may be one-day spikes of about 10 KJ/hr to about one-week spikes = of >about 30 to a maximum down spike, unexplained, from about 100 to about >20 KJ/hr, at 3600 hours. The average in the last 20% is about 30 >KJ/hr. This is the same rate as 30 KW/hr, or 8 W. =20 What Rich does not point out in this description of Fig 8a is that an = eyeball average of the data shows an output of about 20-30 KJ/hr for = most of the 4750 hours. Rich takes 30 KJ/hr as equivalent to 8 W. There = are also periods of tens of hours at 50 KJ/hr and period of hundreds of = hours where the output rises to 60-80 KJ/hr before an abrupt fall off to = a 20 KJ/hr rate. Rich notes this as "unexplained", as if this lack of = explanation is a fault in the report. What Rich does not do is note that = this drop is preceded by a an exponential rise from about 2500 hours to = 3600 hours.=20 Apparently, Rich expects the reaction to continue at some steady level, = with detailed explanations given for any deviation from this. The data = show strong variations in output over the 4750 hour run. He interprets = this as "noise" instead of evidence of a physical process - whose = details are not understood. There is noise in the data, but it is = consistent with the calibration data nad does not obscure the actual = process at all.=20 >On the next page, 6,Fig. 6 mentions,=20 A detail, but Fig 8, which Rich was discussing, is on p7, so p6 is not = the "next" page. This would not be worth mentioning, except that Rich = has noted such slips in the inventory of errors which he present in his = critiques.=20 >"Our usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts and "cell-power" = is >clearly negative with about minus one watt for a Pt control cathode = as shown >in this diagram." So, this control run is given a value on = the graph of "~0.7" W, >or .8 to .7% of the usual input electrical = power. "Clearly negative"! Likewise, 8 >W is 7 to 5.5% of the usual = input power. Naturally, these kind of percentages >are never given in = this paper. =20 Of course not, the authors expect that the readers can do arithmetic if = interested or necessary. My interpretation of Fig. 6 is that with Pt = anode and cathode, and 100+ watts of electrolysis power, the cell loses = heat at the rate of about one watt. Since electrolysis of the = electrolyte will occur with the Pt electrodes, this calibration includes = the effect of the catalytic recombiner. Rich should have realized this = and not raised the "recombination" issue even before Scott corrected = him. Thus if active cell runs show an increase of heat of, say, 8 W, = this is a conservative number, well in excess of artifacts of the cell = construction. In discussing Fig 8, Rich does not mention two other graphs. Fig 8a is = for a cathode with 3 gr of Pd-black. Fig 8b, for a cathode with 5 gr = Pd-black, shows sustained output in the range of 60 KJ/hr from 200 to = 800 hours. Fig 8c is a plot of power out/in for this same cathode, with = 5 gr Pd-black. This shows unmistakable proportionality between power = out/in, with equally unmistakable elevation above the 1:1 ratio.=20 Remember that the fundamental issue here is the Anomalous Energy (excess = heat) produced by the Pd cathodes over a long period.=20 >These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded calorimetry, are = >meaningless noise, readily achieved if the recombiner catalyst is only = partially >effective. There is no justification for "mediocre, completely outmoded". The issue = is whether the calibration is adequate and the signal/noise ratio in the = data is sufficient to support the purpose at hand, which is to measure = energy yield over a long period. The data illustrated are adequate for = this purpose.=20 The actual calorimitry is flow calorimitry applied to the cooling liquid = with the operating cell inside a dewar flask. There is no justification = for "meaningless noise", as the curves in Fig 8, all three of them, show = clear trends and signatures of physical processes at work. A = straight-line-segment approximation of the curves of Fig 8a and 8b, and = integration, indicate an energy yield of 108 MJ for Fig.8a and 50 KJ for = Fig. 8b. The "noise" envelop for Fig 8a is about +/- 5 KJ/hr, and for = Fig 8b about +/- 2 KJ/hr; this is consistent with the calibration data = of Fig. 6b. The integrated "noise" envelopes are 33 MJ (of 108 MJ yield) = for Fig. 8a and 3.4 MJ (of 58 MJ yield). =20 There is no reasoning to show how the presumed partially effective = recombiner could produce the time varying data present.=20 >Cathode (b) seems to be about 50 KJ/hr for the last 20% of its 850-day = run, >different time history. =20 Rich now misreads Fig 8b, for the average level is 60 KJ/hr, not 50. = Further, it rises above 50 KJ/hr at hour 200, with the exception of one = drop to 40 KJ/hr of about one hour's duration. His statement of "50 = KJ/hr for the last 20%" is both inaccurate and misleading. It is true = that the time history is different from that of 8a, but so are the = cathodes, one with 3 gr of Pd-black, the other with 5 gr of Pd-black.=20 This is not "meaningless noise", it is real-world laboratory data.=20 >The random nature of the heat data is indicated in Fig. 6 by the Cell >Power for the Pt to Pt control cell, expressed as W out vs W in. There >are about 6 values from about 0 to about 1.5 W for zero input power, = and >for input powers from 20 to about 130 W, the output ranges from -2 to = +2 >W at each power level. =20 The "random nature" in Fig 6a shows tightly clustered data points within = a range of -2 to +2 with a least squares averaging of about -0.7 watts, = for the operating range of interest. Two watts are about 7KJ/hr. Noise = of this magnitude can be seen superimposed on the "signal" in Figs 8a = and 8b, where the "signal" of a physical process ranges from 20 to 80 = KJ/hr. See notes above. >Similar data are not given for the two experimental runs. Of course not, the variability is clearly seen in the data plots, along = with the process signal.=20 >Fig. 8, Note 2: "Generating pattern of each sample displays significant >difference with chronological change. however, each total amount of >excess energy included the eight samples used from 1992 to now was >almost same." [typos in the original] This confirms that the excess heat signature of the two cathodes is = similar to other cathodes of similar construction; the present data is = not a fluke.=20 >I will list the information that is needed to be given about the >calorimetry, along with pertinent questions: There follows a long list of details >Cell, electrodes, catalyst, heater resistor, reservoir, pump, cooling >tube, electrolyte: composition, impurities, shape, size, mass, changes >over time, erosion or deposition? =20 What use would Rich make of this data were it given? This is standard = calorimitry and the S/N calibration and S/N ratios are high enough that = the question is irrelevant.=20 >Was system visually opaque, operation hidden from view? =20 The system is in a vacuum bottle, clearly stated in Fig. 5. A look = inside any thermos will show the opaque silver lining, which is = standard. Answer obvious.=20 >What was the level of dissolved H2 and O2 in the electrolyte at various = times? =20 Why relevant? >Did the 120 to 150 W power input cause evaporation or boiling of the = >electrolyte, and how hot was the cathode?=20 Cooling water of 20C clearly stated, power yield 60 KJ/hr max (16 watts = on top about 120 W electrolytic power, easily dissipated by cooling = water, obviously no boiling with a bit of thought.) >Was high temperature the cause of high pressures in the cathode? The cathode was immersed in the electrolyte; the mechanisms of high = pressure have to do with the electrolysis, which has been fundamental to = the P&F effect from day one. Question irrelevant. > Did strong evaporation of the electrolyte create solid deposits in the = upper >part of the cell, creating electrical shorts or changing the chemistry >of the electrolyte? How would there be strong evaporation in a closed cell, where the = humidity will be 100%? >Any evidence of mixing, bubbles, sudden releases of bubbles, = temperature >spikes, stratification, sudden mixing, leaks, extraneous electrolysis >from electric potential leaks at other points in the system, heat = inputs >from electrode wires, effectiveness of heat insulation, heat leaks from >top of cell and from wire leads?=20 All answered by the calibration with Pt anode and cathode. >Measurements: flow rate, temperatures, voltage, current, current >density, resistance, accuracy, fluctuations, long-term drift, exact >placement of thermocouples, spikes, electrical interferences, frequency >of measurement, detailed graphs for whole history of run, results with >control heater resistor, reasons for temperature spikes? All answered by the calibration runs. How would Rich evaluate the date = if he had it? >The poor quality of the excess energy claims=20 The poor quality is in the analysis of the excess energy claims, as = noted above >destroys the main thrust of Arata and Zhang's work The only thing destroyed - and it is self-destruction - is the = credibility of Rich's critique >that their complex and subtle measurements of He-4 and He-3 show the = levels >that should exist for the claimed energy production. =20 The measurements are rather straightforward to one familiar with QMS. = What is complex - of necessity - are the experimental procedures to get = good measurements. >A critical analysis of those measurements is beyond the scope of my = training >and experience. =20 Quite true >However, I am not optimistic Neither am I, given the large errors in the Critique. Rich goes on to = cite the Bose work as evidence that excess heat disappears when = recombination is taken into account. However, the cited experiments were = with nickel-light water systems, so the discussion is totally = irrelevant. He also quotes Shekdi to the same effect. He goes on to say: = >Murray: Little lists 13 claimed positive excess heat results for = Ni-light >water cells, many by eminent laboratories, but not the above two >studies. We see then that a multitude of interesting, convincing = positive claims >in the cold fusion field may be all invalidated.=20 These negative results have been critiqued by others and found wanting. = Rich's critical faculties fail when it comes to negative reports, which = are accepted without analysis. Rich then goes on to re-post an earlier = essay about Skinner's experiments with pigeons. This, too is flawed.=20 Skinner developed a "conditioning" technique in which an animal is given = immediate rewards for behavior favored by the experimenter; thus = initially random movements may be efficiently guided into a desired = behavior pattern. Such methods are used with performing animals, who can = quickly learn complex routines. An "objective behaviorist" would call = this "conditioning", but it is also efficient communication. Skinner set = up a device that fed chickens with random, irregular distributions of = seed and produced random behavior in the chickens. No-brainer. Rich goes = on:=20 >Bizarre, meaningless patterns-- superstitious behavior. >Something like that can happen to a research team. The ingredients = are: >1. paradigmitis: the attitude that pretty much anything may be = possible, >and there is no way to tell what is going on or is of import. >2. data stew: an experimental setup, some kind of finicky = kludge... >This process of team scientific superstition describes CETI, Blacklight >Power, and the Cincinnati Group It appears that although Rich has a degree in physics from MIT, he is so = far removed from experimental science that he is unable to understand = relatively complex experiments and so collects opinions and has himself = become confused to the point that he is unable to correctly read the = four A&Z pages on calorimitry.=20 Mike Carrell =20 Sept. 30, 1997 Re Skinner's superstitious pigeons and team scientific folly One of the classics of experimental psychology was by the famed behaviorist at Harvard, B.F. Skinner, who used intermittent positive reinforcement to condition a variety of eccentric behaviors simultaneously in a group of pigeons within a day. He set up a device to randomly toss tasty grain into their pen. If a pigeon happened to be making a left turn when it suddenly found a bit of grain under its beak, its neural net would increase the probability of repeating that behavior, thus setting up a positive feedback cycle of continuing to encounter bits of grain and building up a strong conditioned behavior to continue turning to the left. Intermittent reinforcement is far more effective than continuous reinforcement, because the neural network is trained to accept a certain reinforcement failure rate, so the behavior is difficult to extinguish by reducing or withholding positive reinforcement. So, in Skinner's experiment, the group of pigeons would all end up dancing in bizarre, meaningless patterns-- superstitious behavior. Something like that can happen to a research team. The ingredients are: 1. paradigmitis: the attitude that pretty much anything may be possible, and there is no way to tell what is going on or is of import. 2. data stew: an experimental setup, some kind of finicky kludge with minimal instrumentation that produces fairly random results in a number of simultaneous, somewhat messily related dimensions, such as radiation measurements, complex and varied chemistry, borderline heat excursions, etc., along with impressive high-tech measurement technology that can only safely be used by highly qualified and experienced operators.=20 Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry is ideal, since it can in half an hour transform a few milligrams of crud into over 200 items of data, replete with all kinds of ambiguities and interferences, while being so expensive that crosschecks may not be budgeted. Subtle leaks are often the source of all kinds of dramatric effects: as I sit in front of my magic mirror writing this, even now the shades of the Challenger crew are starting to appear, whispering beseechingly, "Never, ever, trust an O-ring seal..."=20 3: A small team of really nice guys: who spend years together fooling around with their kludge, making a nice enough living, trying all kinds of things, and gradually finding procedures that often enough produce interesting and mystifying results, which may seem to start to confirm a shared mindset and tentative theory. They are for years always on the brink of a definitive experimental and theoretical breakthrough.=20 Peering myoptically at realms of meaningless data and random outcomes, they become blind to the obvious and alert to the obscure. They start to select from this plethora of information the tidbits that seem to substantiate their story, and they invariably present these curiously isolated items to the wider community in a characteristicly modest, diffident, almost plaintive way, seeking support, politely uninterested in skeptical criticism, making motions of criticing and cross-checking their own story. If the prospects of fame and fortune become vivid, then the result of this truly powerful, highly intermittent positive reinforcement is a striking intensification of the scientific superstition process. Commercially justified secrecy becomes an inpenetrable barrier to scientific discourse with the wider community.=20 Typically, the victims tend to abort this tragic cycle by seemingly overconfident release of confused data and even experimental kits, and by putting out reports that are full of multitudinous typos and loose ends. This process of team scientific superstition describes CETI, Blacklight Power, and the Cincinnati Group. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_01BCE439.B5DD9DC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 04:54:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07101; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:48:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 04:48:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34572293.73EC earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 05:48:35 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcdrn.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov, g-miley uiuc.edu, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol, com germany.it.earthlink.net, dennis@wazoo.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, rgeorge@hooked.net, wireless@rmii.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.edu, mike_mckubre@qm.sir.com, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov Subject: Murray's credibility: recent evidence Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pWljU.0.sk1.M2pLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 29. 1997 Dear all, Although my credibility is operationally well established by the quality of those who engage me in respectful dialogues, Jed Rothwell has also honored me with a typically eloquent, vehement dismissal, which contains many points that are quite true. However, I want to present some of my recent posts, which show very well the quality of my critical dialogues: the evidence shows that I often repost messages that critize me or that are very positive about cold fusion, that I willingly accept corrections, that I have made public retraction about some aspects of my criticisms about Miley's reports, and that my enthusiasm for paradigm-busting cold fusion breakthroughs is tempered by a willingness to listen to the actual "voice of the data". Subject: Miley's calorimetry Resent-Date: 23 Oct 1997 19:59:11 -0700 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:58:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Little Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Rich Murray asks a lot of good questions about Miley's calorimetry. Unfortunately Miley does not provide a detailed description of his calorimetry methods in either of his papers on transmutation in CETI-style beads. I can only shed an oblique light on this issue. We have worked with an official CETI Rifex kit here at EarthTech. Although the kit was not promoted as an excess heat experiment, it nonetheless was provided with inlet and outlet temperature measuring stations and there was a section in the protocol book which discussed how to make electrolyte-flow calorimetric measurements of the heat generated in the cell. In our Rifex work, therefore, we monitored the inlet and outlet temperature sensors as suggested hoping to see some signs of excess heat. What we observed instead was a more-or-less meaningless meandering around of the delta-T signal in response to ambient temperature changes in our lab. The Rifex kit included an insulated chamber for the cell to operate in but there was no provision for temperature regulation of this chamber. Compared to the performance of the various calorimeter systems we have developed at EarthTech, the Rifex kit was hopelessly inadequate. Pure Speculation: If Miley had taken all the trouble we have taken to obtain respectable calorimetric measurement accuracies, I doubt he would have neglected to include a detailed description of those efforts in his papers. If he didn't take all that trouble, I doubt if his calorimetric results are reliable. What about the nuclear transmutations? At we speak, samples of our reacted Rifex beads, electrolyte, and electrodes are being analyzed by Miley's group for comparison to our own analyses. Hopefully we can integrate and resolve all this analytical data into a presentable report in a couple of more weeks. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:34:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Scott Little Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com At 12:30 AM 10/25/97 -0500, Rich Murray wrote: [re Arata and Zhang He-4 report] >Fig. 6 mentions, "Our usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts >and "cell-power" is clearly negative with about minus one watt [for a Pt >control cathode] as shown in this diagram." So, this control run is >given a value on the graph of "~0.7" W, or .8 to .7% of the usual input >electrical power. "Clearly negative"! Likewise, 8 W is 7 to 5.5% of the >usual input power. Naturally, these kind of percentages are never given >in this paper. > These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded >calorimetry, are meaningless noise.... I agree that these percentages are awfully small to be taking seriously unless they have gone to extreme measures in their calorimetry. >...readily achived if the recombiner catalyst is only partially effective. Wait a minute, Rich. Since they have a recombiner in the cell, they would be assuming that all gases are recombined and thus they would take the input power to be simply V*I and they would not be making any corrections for the fuel value of escaping H2 & O2. If the recombiner did not work completely, the ONLY direction the Pout/Pin ratio could go is DOWN. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little Scott Little, you are right about my mistake-- any inefficiency in the catalytic recombiner will produce lower apparent output power. So, as yet, we have no obvious explanation for the persistent minor excess power. However, the calorimetry does not, as you agree, have enough accuracy to make this a compelling problem. Do Arata and Zhang present more complete calorimetry data in their other English language papers, and, if so, could Mike Carrel or someone mail me those? What do you think of my idea that one artifact might result from additional electrical potential leaks in the electrolyte, building up a level of dissolved H2 and O2 that would then generate apparent excess heat by reacting with the recombiner catalyst in the cell? Would the level of dissolved H2 and O2 depend on electrolyte temperature? How much apparent excess heat could be generated at various flow rates? Has anyone ever heard about this artifact? Thank you, Rich Murray October 25, 1997 John Bockris, I am happy to forward your experienced, gentle comments, full of valuable details, to many scientists in the cold fusion field. I hope my critical efforts, grounded in the reported details of many reports, will help the players accept an atmosphere of vigorous, frank, playful criticism, that will vastly improve the efficiency and clarity of the shared process of exploration. I am dissappointed that I haven't yet found a completely convincing report of a cold fusion experiment, although so far, Claytor's production of tritium seems the strongest, in that the detection of that radioactivity seems so straightforward and incontrovertible. I am very interested in the Chubb theory, and wonder how much criticism and support it has received, and from whom. Thank you, Rich Murray >From Eighth Miley Critique, July 21, 1997: I will take the space here to reiterate my after/before ratios in my First Miley Critique, [posted Dec 7, 1996, on George H. Miley, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," "Infinite Energy" magazine, # 9, July-August, 1996] calculated from his own data in Table 3 in his First Preprint, based on NAA analysis, given accuracy by him of +- 2 to 4 % in his July 20 post: [I have arranged the data by element, in order, and calculated the ratio, after/before. When helpful, I added natural abundance, the estimated SIMS count from a double-scale zerox of Fig. 3b., and possible same-mass interferences. Fig. 3b is labeled, "Typical low resolution SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers in the cell).] I have added for the less common isotopes a second line with three abundance ratios, compared to the most common isotope: official, before, and after, along with the percentage change from official. #atoms per microsphere ratio, after/before before after 23-V50 3.54E10 70.1E10 19.8 23-Cr50? 399r 407r = + 2 % 408r = + 2 % 23-V51 1.44E13 28.6E13 19.9 24-Cr50 omitted, 4.4%, SIMS=~500, 23-V50? 24-Cr52 5.63E14 1070E14 190. 24-Cr53 6.27E13 1360E13 217. 8.82r 8.98r = + 2 % 7.87r = - 11 % 24-Cr54 1.53E13 255E15 167. 35.4r 36.8r = + 4 % 42.0r = + 20 % 26-Fe54 2.82E15 17.8E15 6.31 15.2r 15.2r = 0 % 15.2r = 0 % 26-Fe56 4.29E16 27.0E16 6.29 26-Fe57 1.01E15 14.1E15 14.0 42.5r 42.5r = 0 % 19.2r = - 55 % 26-Fe58 omitted, 0.28 %, SIMS=~1000, 28-Ni58? 27-Co59 1.23E14 19.9E14 16.2 100% 29-Cu63 3.57E15 116E15 32.5 29-Cu65 1.54E15 49.7E15 32.3 2.24r 2.30r = + 2.6 % 2.33r = 4.2 % 30-Zn64 1.42E15 16.7E15 11.8 28-Ni64? 30-Zn66 7.82E14 92.2E14 11.8 1.74r 1.82r = + 6.2 % 1.81r = + 4.1 % 30-Zn67 1.14E14 21.6E14 19.0 4.1%, SIMS=~10 11.9r 12.5r = + 7.4 % 7.73r = - 35 % 30-Zn68 5.08E14 130E14 25.6 18.8%, SIMS=~11 2.64r 2.80r = + 5.9 % 1.29r = -51 % 30-Zn70 1.64E13 124E13 75.6 0.6%, SIMS=~1, 32-Ge70? 81r 86.6r = +6.9 % 13.5r = - 83 % 47-Ag107 7.32E15 76.1E15 10.4 47-Ag109 6.68E15 61.4E15 9.2 1.07r 1.10r = +3 % 1.24r = + 17 % Of these 7 NAA elements, the V pair is typical, with after/before ratios astonishingly close at 19.8 and 19.9, giving absolutely no hint of changes in isotopic abundances, but suggesting strongly a 20-fold transfer of metal from one measured set of ten beads to another within the cell. This is obviously the same for Cu, while there is provocative data for Cr, Ag, and the specific isotopes: Fe57, Zn67, Zn68, and Zn70, considering the +- 2 to 4 % precision of NAA, given by Miley in his July 20 post. The most out-of-line isotope is 30-Zn70, with ratio 75.6, has only 0.6 % natural abundance, making its measurement more susceptible to dust contamination, and, shall we say, random glitches, as well possible interferences from 32-Ge70. Also, the SIMS count for 30-Zn-70 in Fig. 3b is about 1. The remarkably close match of some of the isotope pairs for V, Fe, Cu, Zn, and Ag is surprising and gratifying, and gives us more faith in the NAA measurements. The before isotopic ratio changes, compared to official values, range from 0 to + 7.4 %, largely confirming Miley's estimates in his post of July 20. The after ratios, compared to official values, range from 0 to + 20 to - 83 %. This data does not suggest isotopic shifts for V and Cu, but provides grounds for spirited debate about Cr, Fe, Zn, and Ag. Table 4a in First Preprint shows that the cells contain l91 micrograms V in the two Ti electrodes: if 1 % somehow dissolved out, then that would roughly equal the 1.52 micrograms of V that Miley measured as added to the beads. At any rate, there seems to be no evidence of isotope shift for V. If we had the specific before and after data for the other five runs, then more of this simple analysis could be done. Zn-68, with an estimated SIMS count of ~11, was listed as enhanced 15.84 % in First Preprint. Here is Miley's data from Table 3 for three isotopes of Si, a non-NAA element, so the data is from SIMS only: Atoms per microsphere Mass No. Fresh Reacted After/Before SIMS counts, from Fig. 3b 28 8.14E+16 3.02E+17 3.7 ~300 29 0 2.04E+16 ? ~ 30 30 0 1.02E+16 ? ~ 10 Again, the poverty of raw data precludes any claims about isotopic shifts, especially to four-digit accuracy! Miley's Table 3 claims Si 30 has a +14.66 % shift, based on a raw data SIMS count of about 10. Presumably, Fig. 3b presents Miley's best raw data-- why else would he publish it? By the way, why is the after data for Si 29 twice that for Si 30 ? My first five Miley Critiques present plenty of data from Miley's first two Preprints that show massive transfer of Ni from some beads to other beads within the thousand beads in a cell. So, since much of the Ni is dissolved from some beads and redeposited on other beads, any trace elements will be liberated and redeposited, perhaps as concentrated spots, which would then be likely to be noticed and measured by the micron-scale SIMS scans on the few spots on the about 10 or so beads selected for study out of the thousand in a cell. Only a thorough, detailed, exact, expensive inventory of cell contents and products, including gunk, gases, and grit, could determine if transmutation or transfer is the model to be applied to the data. Sept.10, 1997 Dear all, Since Dr. Miley has just posted on Vortex-L a good rejoiner to this Critique, I make bold to repost it for the convenience of those who hadn't seen it, or lost it in the mists of recent time, along with his reply. Miley makes a convincing case that there is not much deposition from layer to layer of beads, and his data is not from obvious local reaction spots. Looking over the tabulated data in my Critique just now, I have to agree that the data for Ag is, on the face of it, anomalous, uncluttered by neighboring elements, and substantial enough to be the focus of attempts at replication. I still am hoping to have the complete before and after data for the other five runs, to do the same kind of tabulated analysis. At least, what is the before and after data for Ag in these runs? Was this specific configuration, run # 8, run again? Also, if new sets of 10 beads were taken from the before and after beads of Run # 8, and analyzed in the same way, then that would be another way to check the analysis-- but expensive. It may be a very cogent suggestion that outgassing in solid electrodes produces the noticable "volcanos" imaged by other researchers. Rich Murray, rmforall earthlink.net Here is Miley's post: Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:10:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:10:35 -0600 From: Rich Murray Organization: Room For All To: Ed Wall , vortex-L@eskimo.com References: 1 Ed Wall, thank you for a very cogent response to my critique of Arata and Zhang. I, too, am uneasy about dismissing the He-4 claim so summarily, and this morning spent two hours studying the reported evidence. I feel uneasy when the apparatus is not described in explicit detail-- for instance, just what are its dimensions, and what pressures of gases are involved in the various measured flows? I notice in Fig. 13 that a tank of He-4 is directly connected into the system. So, I conjecture that an amount of He-4 could be adsorbed on the inner walls and crevices of the whole system. I conjecture that after a sample was heated to 1300 degrees C, that immediately upon release into the exit pipe to the rest of the system, it still might be hot enough to then cause enough release of adsorbed He-4 to generate the signal in the QMS. So, what is the density and temperature distribution of that released hot sample gas in the exit pipe? Another conjecture: what other gases might be evolved by the 1300 degree C heating that might then elicit release of adsorbed He-4 in the exit pipe? Referring to Fig. 14 and the many figures like, it, I would like help from you and anyone: What does it mean? What is being laid out on the vertical and horizontal axis? What do the times refer to? Is this a known way of presenting QMS data? What are the units of the vertical scale? What is the significance of the unmown lawn of background signals? Fig. 18: What Getter material was used, and exactly how does it operate? What are the dimensions and the actual geometry of the closed QMS cell? What is the Molecular pump, and what materials does it use? What is the Standard mix gas vessel? In Fig. 19 B, What are the units on the vertical and horizontal axis? Are the straight lines actual data or merely indicative? Scientists have been misled by He-4 repeatedly since the 1920's. I am eager to find evidence that existing paradigms are being overthrown-- that's why I've been studying cold fusion reports for eight years. It is dissappointing to me to find that a search for artifacts seems to almost always succeed, but I am determined to hear and obey the actual "voice of the data". Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 06:40:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01712; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:33:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:33:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34573B41.3A47 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:33:53 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, rgeorge@hooked.net, wireless@remii.com, g-miley uiuc.edu, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, storms@ix.netcom.com, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov, dennis@wazoo.com, mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, mcfee@x-div.lanl.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb aol.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, reeber aro-emh1.army.mil, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov Subject: Carrell critique of Murray's Arata critique: email version Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s7fOv.0.cQ.DbqLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: October 29, 1997 I am reposting this, in accessible email form, detailed critique by Mike Carrell [mikec snip.net] of my Arata Critique. It certainly is true that I didn't realize that the electrolyte didn't circulate. Duh! My many concerns to have all the specific details about the cell is so that I, and those more skilled, can conduct the necessary search for possible artifacts. Here is a cell running for as long as 198 days. How long was the Pt-Pt control run? If the temperature measuring system can be trusted over this half-year run, Fig. 8a shows a gradual rise from 2000 hours to 3500 hours from about 20 KJ/hr [5.6 W] to about 90 KJ/hr [25 W], with about 120-150 watts input power, or a maximum peak of 21 to 17%. The core issue is: is this nuclear energy, or a persistent artifact? Why, if the heat is from a nuclear reaction that goes on for a half-year, is the excess heat percentage at most only 21%? This suggests that a nonnuclear artifact was operating. So, it is pertinent, for instance, to know if the cell was always free of leaks, the detailed pressure history of the run, if gases were ever released, how much stirring was going on, what the what the actual temperatures were at the cathode, whether physical and chemical changes occurred in the electrolyte, whether deposits accumulated in the system, what the cell was made of. McKubre and others have commented that silica deposits can accumulate on cathodes, producing various changes. Russ George wrote me that he is working with Arata. Could the graphs, of all eight runs be provided, comparable the two runs already given in Fig. 8, and could these graphs be in full-page format with background grids, and the simultanous input power? Is the glass half-full or half-empty? Nuclear or artifact? Murray has been free with his criticism of papers and reports by established scientists, so it is appropriate that his critiques be held to the same standards which he applies to others. I will begin with his October 25 review of the Arata/Zhang paper. This hasn't been published in IE, and apparently only a few of vortex members have it. I got my copy from Gene Mallove and made a copy for Rich, which he acknowledged. >I have spent two hours reviewing.... Four pages describe the apparatus and >calorimetry, and are the focus of this critique Two hours are barely enough to get an understanding of this paper unless you are already expert in the field, which neither Rich nor I am. In making a critique one should study the paper until one understands the scope and thrust of the thesis presented before one begins to evaluate the supporting evidence. Otherwise, a critique can become a literary criticism of grammar and style with no relevance to the real issue at hand. In the case at hand the fundamental question is whether 4He and 3He, both nuclear products, are produced in deuterated palladium cathodes in electrolytic cells, and is the presence of these elements related to an excess heat (anomalous energy) signature. A secondary issue, which takes up a substantial part of the paper, is an exposition of a theory of how 4He and 3He can be produced within a Pd lattice. Rich goes on to raise the issue of recombination, even though the cell is closed and a substantial mass labeled "catalyst" is shown in a cross-section of the cell in Fig. 5, which is schematic but one could assume is not grossly disproportioned. Scott Little has pointed out that incomplete recombination - if it exists - would reduce the apparent anomalous energy produced. Rich has acknowledged his error. >The electrolyte is .1M LiOH in D2O, volume and flow rate not given. Rich has not understood Fig 5, which clearly shows a helical coil carrying cooling water submerged in the electrolyte. The electrolyte clearly sits there in the closed cell and does not flow anyplace. He is confusing the Arata cell with Patterson cells, where the electrolyte flows through the cell. Flow calorimitry is used on the cooling water, but such is so standard in usage as not to merit space in the paper. Rich goes on to note that dimensions and assays of the Pt anode and Pd cathode are not given. Major transmutation is not the issue at hand, so detailed assays are not an issue here. The issue is 4He and 3He and heat. The matter of solubility of He in Pd is crucial and adequately dealt with. >The cathode is hollow and contains for (a) 3 gm Pd black powder...The method >of sealing of the cathode is not described. "It seems that Pc [pressure] inside >closed type DS-cathodes will be rising up several thousand [atm] which is >estimated from defo rmation of outside appearance..." Rich apparently does not understand the reason for this cathode construction or the import of the internal pressure, which is discussed on pp 46-7 of the report. This relates to the efficacy of electrolysis in generating enough pressure to achieve the 90% loading necessary to initiate the AE reactions. The Pd black powder augments this process in a way I do not fully understand. >This suggest the possibility of leaks, which could generate some of the data >spikes. This is pure and baseless speculation. There is no evidence that leaks occurred. Rich gives no mechanism for how a leak could cause data spikes followed by hours of AE output. If a leak occurred, it would so change the internal conditions of the cathode that the experiment would fail. No such evidence is in the data. Rich goes on to discuss some of the graphs. >Figure 8(a) shows Cell power (excess energy) over 4750 hours, varying in >what may be one-day spikes of about 10 KJ/hr to about one-week spikes of >about 30 to a maximum down spike, unexplained, from about 100 to about >20 KJ/hr, at 3600 hours. The average in the last 20% is about 30 >KJ/hr. This is the same rate as 30 KW/hr, or 8 W. What Rich does not point out in this description of Fig 8a is that an eyeball average of the data shows an output of about 20-30 KJ/hr for most of the 4750 hours. Rich takes 30 KJ/hr as equivalent to 8 W. There are also periods of tens of hours at 50 KJ/hr and period of hundreds of hours where the output rises to 60-80 KJ/hr before an abrupt fall off to a 20 KJ/hr rate. Rich notes this as "unexplained", as if this lack of explanation is a fault in the report. What Rich does not do is note that this drop is preceded by a an exponential rise from about 2500 hours to 3600 hours. Apparently, Rich expects the reaction to continue at some steady level, with detailed explanations given for any deviation from this. The data show strong variations in output over the 4750 hour run. He interprets this as "noise" instead of evidence of a physical process - whose details are not understood. There is noise in the data, but it is consistent with the calibration data and does not obscure the actual process at all. >On the next page, 6,Fig. 6 mentions, A detail, but Fig 8, which Rich was discussing, is on p7, so p6 is not the "next" page. This would not be worth mentioning, except that Rich has noted such slips in the inventory of errors which he present in his critiques. >"Our usual experimental range is around 120-150 watts and "cell-power" is >clearly negative with about minus one watt for a Pt control cathode as shown >in this diagram." So, this control run is given a value on the graph of "~0.7" W, >or .8 to .7% of t he usual input electrical power. "Clearly negative"! Likewise, 8 >W is 7 to 5.5% of the usual input power. Naturally, these kind of percentages >are never given in this paper. Of course not, the authors expect that the readers can do arithmetic if interested or necessary. My interpretation of Fig. 6 is that with Pt anode and cathode, and 100+ watts of electrolysis power, the cell loses heat at the rate of about one watt. Since electrolysis of the electrolyte will occur with the Pt electrodes, this calibration includes the effect of the catalytic recombiner. Rich should have realized this and not raised the "recombination" issue even before Scott corrected him. Thus if active cell runs show an increase of heat of, say, 8 W, this is a conservative number, well in excess of artifacts of the cell construction. In discussing Fig 8, Rich does not mention two other graphs. Fig 8a is for a cathode with 3 gr of Pd-black. Fig 8b, for a cathode with 5 gr Pd-black, shows sustained output in the range of 60 KJ/hr from 200 to 800 hours. Fig 8c is a plot of power out/in for this same cathode, with 5 gr Pd-black. This shows unmistakable proportionality between power out/in, with equally unmistakable elevation above the 1:1 ratio. Remember that the fundamental issue here is the Anomalous Energy (excess heat) produced by the Pd cathodes over a long period. >These percentages in a mediocre, completely outmoded calorimetry, are >meaningless noise, readily achieved if the recombiner catalyst is only partially >effective. There is no justification for "mediocre, completely outmoded". The issue is whether the calibration is adequate and the signal/noise ratio in the data is sufficient to support the purpose at hand, which is to measure energy yield over a long period. The data illustrated are adequate for this purpose. The actual calorimetry is flow calorimetry applied to the cooling liquid with the operating cell inside a dewar flask. There is no justification for "meaningless noise", as the curves in Fig 8, all three of them, show clear trends and signatures of physical processes at work. A straight-line-segment approximation of the curves of Fig 8a and 8b, and integration, indicate an energy yield of 108 MJ for Fig.8a and 50 KJ for Fig. 8b. The "noise" envelope for Fig 8a is about +/- 5 KJ/hr, and for Fig 8b about +/- 2 KJ/hr; this is consistent with the calibration data of Fig. 6b. The integrated "noise" envelopes are 33 MJ (of 108 MJ yield) for Fig. 8a and 3.4 MJ (of 58 MJ yield). There is no reasoning to show how the presumed partially effective recombiner could produce the time varying data present. >Cathode (b) seems to be about 50 KJ/hr for the last 20% of its 850-day run, >different time history. Rich now misreads Fig 8b, for the average level is 60 KJ/hr, not 50. Further, it rises above 50 KJ/hr at hour 200, with the exception of one drop to 40 KJ/hr of about one hour's duration. His statement of "50 KJ/hr for the last 20%" is both inaccurate and misleading. It is true that the time history is different from that of 8a, but so are the cathodes, one with 3 gr of Pd-black, the other with 5 gr of Pd-black. This is not "meaningless noise", it is real-world laboratory data. >The random nature of the heat data is indicated in Fig. 6 by the Cell >Power for the Pt to Pt control cell, expressed as W out vs W in. There >are about 6 values from about 0 to about 1.5 W for zero input power, and >for input powers from 20 to about 130 W, the output ranges from -2 to +2 >W at each power level. The "random nature" in Fig 6a shows tightly clustered data points within a range of -2 to +2 with a least squares averaging of about -0.7 watts, for the operating range of interest. Two watts are about 7KJ/hr. Noise of this magnitude can be seen superimposed on the "signal" in Figs 8a and 8b, where the "signal" of a physical process ranges from 20 to 80 KJ/hr. See notes above. >Similar data are not given for the two experimental runs. Of course not, the variability is clearly seen in the data plots, along with the process signal. >Fig. 8, Note 2: "Generating pattern of each sample displays significant >difference with chronological change. however, each total amount of >excess energy included the eight samples used from 1992 to now was >almost same." [typos in the original] This confirms that the excess heat signature of the two cathodes is similar to other cathodes of similar construction; the present data is not a fluke. >I will list the information that is needed to be given about the >calorimetry, along with pertinent questions: There follows a long list of details >Cell, electrodes, catalyst, heater resistor, reservoir, pump, cooling >tube, electrolyte: composition, impurities, shape, size, mass, changes >over time, erosion or deposition? What use would Rich make of this data were it given? This is standard calorimitry and the S/N calibration and S/N ratios are high enough that the question is irrelevant. >Was system visually opaque, operation hidden from view? The system is in a vacuum bottle, clearly stated in Fig. 5. A look inside any thermos will show the opaque silver lining, which is standard. Answer obvious. >What was the level of dissolved H2 and O2 in the electrolyte at various times? Why relevant? >Did the 120 to 150 W power input cause evaporation or boiling of the >electrolyte, and how hot was the cathode? Cooling water of 20C clearly stated, power yield 60 KJ/hr max (16 watts on top about 120 W electrolytic power, easily dissipated by cooling water, obviously no boiling with a bit of thought.) >Was high temperature the cause of high pressures in the cathode? The cathode was immersed in the electrolyte; the mechanisms of high pressure have to do with the electrolysis, which has been fundamental to the P&F effect from day one. Question irrelevant. > Did strong evaporation of the electrolyte create solid deposits in the upper >part of the cell, creating electrical shorts or changing the chemistry >of the electrolyte? How would there be strong evaporation in a closed cell, where the humidity will be 100%? >Any evidence of mixing, bubbles, sudden releases of bubbles, temperature >spikes, stratification, sudden mixing, leaks, extraneous electrolysis >from electric potential leaks at other points in the system, heat inputs >from electrode wires, effectiveness of heat insulation, heat leaks from >top of cell and from wire leads? All answered by the calibration with Pt anode and cathode. >Measurements: flow rate, temperatures, voltage, current, current >density, resistance, accuracy, fluctuations, long-term drift, exact >placement of thermocouples, spikes, electrical interferences, frequency >of measurement, detailed graphs for whole history of run, results with >control heater resistor, reasons for temperature spikes? All answered by the calibration runs. How would Rich evaluate the date if he had it? >The poor quality of the excess energy claims The poor quality is in the analysis of the excess energy claims, as noted above >destroys the main thrust of Arata and Zhang's work The only thing destroyed - and it is self-destruction - is the credibility of Rich's critique >that their complex and subtle measurements of He-4 and He-3 show the levels >that should exist for the claimed energy production. The measurements are rather straightforward to one familiar with QMS. What is complex - of necessity - are the experimental procedures to get good measurements. >A critical analysis of those measurements is beyond the scope of my training >and experience. Quite true >However, I am not optimistic Neither am I, given the large errors in the Critique. Rich goes on to cite the Bose work as evidence that excess heat disappears when recombination is taken into account. However, the cited experiments were with nickel-light water systems, so the discussion is totally irrelevant. He also quotes Shekdi to the same effect. He goes on to say: >Murray: Little lists 13 claimed positive excess heat results for Ni-light >water cells, many by eminent laboratories, but not the above two >studies. We see then that a multitude of interesting, convincing positive claims >in the cold fusion field may be all invalidated. These negative results have been critiqued by others and found wanting. Rich's critical faculties fail when it comes to negative reports, which are accepted without analysis. Rich then goes on to re-post an earlier essay about Skinner's experiments with pigeons. This, too is flawed. Skinner developed a "conditioning" technique in which an animal is given immediate rewards for behavior favored by the experimenter; thus initially random movements may be efficiently guided into a desired behavior pattern. Such methods are used with performing animals, who can quickly learn complex routines. An "objective behaviorist" would call this "conditioning", but it is also efficient communication. Skinner set up a device that fed chickens with random, irregular distributions of seed and produced random behavior in the chickens. No-brainer. Rich goes on: >Bizarre, meaningless patterns-- superstitious behavior. >Something like that can happen to a research team. The ingredients are: >1. paradigmitis: the attitude that pretty much anything may be possible, >and there is no way to tell what is going on or is of import. >2. data stew: an experimental setup, some kind of finicky kludge... >This process of team scientific superstition describes CETI, Blacklight >Power, and the Cincinnati Group It appears that although Rich has a degree in physics from MIT, he is so far removed from experimental science that he is unable to understand relatively complex experiments and so collects opinions and has himself become confused to the point that he is unable to correctly read the four A&Z pages on calorimitry. Mike Carrell Sept. 30, 1997 Re Skinner's superstitious pigeons and team scientific folly One of the classics of experimental psychology was by the famed behaviorist at Harvard, B.F. Skinner, who used intermittent positive reinforcement to condition a variety of eccentric behaviors simultaneously in a group of pigeons within a day. He set up a device to randomly toss tasty grain into their pen. If a pigeon happened to be making a left turn when it suddenly found a bit of grain under its beak, its neural net would increase the probability of repeating that behavior, thus setting up a positive feedback cycle of continuing to encounter bits of grain and building up a strong conditioned behavior to continue turning to the left. Intermittent reinforcement is far more effective than continuous reinforcement, because the neural network is trained to accept a certain reinforcement failure rate, so the behavior is difficult to extinguish by reducing or withholding positive reinforcement. So, in Skinner's experiment, the group of pigeons would all end up dancing in bizarre, meaningless patterns-- superstitious behavior. Something like that can happen to a research team. The ingredients are: 1. paradigmitis: the attitude that pretty much anything may be possible, and there is no way to tell what is going on or is of import. 2. data stew: an experimental setup, some kind of finicky kludge with minimal instrumentation that produces fairly random results in a number of simultaneous, somewhat messily related dimensions, such as radiation measurements, complex and varied chemistry, borderline heat excursions, etc., along with impressive high-tech measurement technology that can only safely be used by highly qualified and experienced operators. Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass Spectrometry is ideal, since it can in half an hour transform a few milligrams of crud into over 200 items of data, replete with all kinds of ambiguities and interferences, while being so expensive that crosschecks may not be budgeted. Subtle leaks are often the source of all kinds of dramatric effects: as I sit in front of my magic mirror writing this, even now the shades of the Challenger crew are starting to appear, whispering beseechingly, "Never, ever, trust an O-ring seal..." 3: A small team of really nice guys: who spend years together fooling around with their kludge, making a nice enough living, trying all kinds of things, and gradually finding procedures that often enough produce interesting and mystifying results, which may seem to start to confirm a shared mindset and tentative theory. They are for years always on the brink of a definitive experimental and theoretical breakthrough. Peering myoptically at realms of meaningless data and random outcomes, they become blind to the obvious and alert to the obscure. They start to select from this plethora of information the tidbits that seem to substantiate their story, and they invariably present these curiously isolated items to the wider community in a characteristicly modest, diffident, almost plaintive way, seeking support, politely uninterested in skeptical criticism, making motions of criticing and cross-checking their own story. If the prospects of fame and fortune become vivid, then the result of this truly powerful, highly intermittent positive reinforcement is a striking intensification of the scientific superstition process. Commercially justified secrecy becomes an inpenetrable barrier to scientific discourse with the wider community. Typically, the victims tend to abort this tragic cycle by seemingly overconfident release of confused data and even experimental kits, and by putting out reports that are full of multitudinous typos and loose ends. This process of team scientific superstition describes CETI, Blacklight Power, and the Cincinnati Group. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 07:25:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03511; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:20:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:20:50 -0800 Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971029091959.ZM23930 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:19:59 -0600 In-Reply-To: Reed Huish "RE: Comments from Science Misconceptions page" (Oct 29, 12:31am) References: <01BCE3F9.9374D2C0.reed zenergy.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"nZ1yV.0.gs.GHrLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Oct 29, 12:31am, Reed Huish wrote: > Albert DeVree is for real. He and is partner told me they built > a working prototype a while back, but alas as what happens > with many of these 'stories' the prototype was destroyed by > excess power output. > > DeVree is seeking for funding to build another prototype to > prove his science is sound. I know his writing can get a little > out of hand, and it turns many people off. Dr. DeVree was nice enough to reply to an email I sent requesting more information. He probably gets many as it turned out to be verbatim to another reply that was posted to vortex last night to and by another vort who also requested more information (could be an automated email reply for all I know). In Dr. DeVree's defense, he does offer up a website address, but that location , is lacking in any quantifiable information to support his claims other than a brief outline of his hypothesis for the operation of the device. IMO he could advance his cause much further and get funding that much sooner by posting his idea for discussion and replication by interested parties. Many in this forum would likely help him at their own expense with few if any strings attached. Until some modest disclosure is provided I would expect him to continue to needlessly suffer the slings and arrows of debunkers here and on similar lists. Perhaps those who know him should invite him to join vortex. I think his willingness or unwillingness to engage in discussion would speak loudest towards questions of his credibility. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 09:30:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA32651; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:17:43 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Rich Murray Further Comments about Arata Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:14:37 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971029172010058.AAA186 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"IYVO12.0.yz7.q-sLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rich said: > Ed Wall, thank you for a very cogent response to my critique of Arata > and Zhang. I, too, am uneasy about dismissing the He-4 claim so > summarily, Then why did he do it? Especially after misreading the calorimitry information? >and this morning spent two hours studying the reported evidence. Good start. > I feel uneasy when the apparatus is not described in explicit detail-- > for instance, just what are its dimensions, and what pressures of gases > are involved in the various measured flows? How would this help? Is Rich qualified in vacuum system design? The report is addressed to peers, who understand vacuum systems. It is not a tutorial. >From some exposure to vacuum systems in my years dealing with the picture tube manufacturing process and working at the Sarnoff center, I can say that vacuum systems are not easy, that there are lots of subtle things going on, and only a person with considerable relevant experience is qualified to comment. A full set of drawings of the apparatus and a mountain of technical manuals would not help Rich one iota. He will have to live with his unease. >I notice in Fig. 13 that a tank of He-4 is directly connected into the system. Very likely to calibrate the mass spectrometer; after all the experiment will be looking for this gas. >So, I conjecture that an amount of He-4 could be adsorbed on the inner walls and crevices > of the whole system. I conjecture that after a sample was heated to > 1300 degrees C, that immediately upon release into the exit pipe to the > rest of the system, it still might be hot enough to then cause enough > release of adsorbed He-4 to generate the signal in the QMS. > So, what is the density and temperature distribution of that released hot sample >gas in the exit pipe? The system will operate at reduced pressure. If any 4He is absorbed on the walls of the system, it will be cold. The very small amount of 4He released from the sample will have no heating effect on the system. The heat would be applied to the sample itself, not to the whole chamber containing the sample. A&Z are aware of the necessary precautions. There are lots more ways things can go wrong than Rich's conjecture. > Referring to Fig. 14 and the many figures like, it, I would like help > from you and anyone: What does it mean? What is being laid out on the > vertical and horizontal axis? What do the times refer to? Is this a > known way of presenting QMS data? What are the units of the vertical > scale? What is the significance of the unmown lawn of background > signals? Can't help; need an expert in QMS. > Fig. 18: What Getter material was used, and exactly how does it > operate? Getters are materials, a small family of metallic elements, with a very strong tendency to absorb gases. In radio, and especially television tubes, getters are used to maintain the necessary hard vacuum over decades of service. They are contained in a small cup as oxides assembled into the tube structure. The tubes a heated to drive out residual gases in the glass and coatings, with continuous pumping. Late in the cycle, as the tube cools down, the getter is "flashed" by induction heating of the cup. The oxygen is released and pumped out and the metals deposited on the glass envelope; the tube is then sealed off. Thereafter the getter is flypaper to gas molecules. Getters can produce vacuums beyond the reach of pumps. In the present case, the getter chamber is very likely a separate chamber coated with a getter and linked by a valve, which is opened when the molecular pump is at its operating limit. >What are the dimensions and the actual geometry of the closed QMS cell? Very likely dictated by the availability of standard stainless steel vacuum parts and fittings. I estimate is that the central volume is less than a cubic foot. There is no motive for making it any larger than for laboratory convenience. How would this information help Rich? >What is the Molecular pump, and what materials does it use? The structure of a molecular pump is very like a multi-stage axial turbine, and turns at very high speeds. Gas molecules wandering into the whirling blades are thrown inward and out the rear end. A molecular pump has to be backed up by a positive-displacement piston pump to prevent outside air from rushing in. The usual material is stainless steel for the blades. > What is the Standard mix gas vessel? A vessel containing a standard gas mix for calibrating the QMS. >In Fig. 19 B, What are the units on the vertical and horizontal axis? >Are the straight lines actual > data or merely indicative? The graph is schematic to indicate the trend of the gas concentrations over time. > Scientists have been misled by He-4 repeatedly since the 1920's. I am > eager to find evidence that existing paradigms are being overthrown-- > that's why I've been studying cold fusion reports for eight years. That's good. > It is dissappointing to me to find that a search for artifacts seems to > almost always succeed, but I am determined to hear and obey the actual > "voice of the data". That's fine. We all listen to the voice of the data. The question is which data are applicable to the case at hand. People with different agendas and convictions cite the data that support the agendas and their convictions and ignore conflicting data. In his critiques, Rich has passed opinions back and forth, hoping for clarifying comment, to vote doubters against believers. Unfortunately, this will not help him, and it adds to the general confusion. Clear evidence for anomalous energy exists, yet he refuses to understand it, always finding some negative opinion, whether relevant or not. His critical analyses apply only to favorable data, not to the "negative" data, which are embraced and broadcast. He has also made serious errors in his critiques because of his lack of understanding of the measurements made and technologies used. He has misunderstood Miley's measurements and only grudgingly acknowledged his error. He misread the Arata & Zhang calorimitry data and declared it useless. Miley and Bockris have seen fit to provide mature, comprehensive responses to his critiques. It remains to be seen if he understands what he has received and will be admonished by them. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 09:30:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25060; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:25:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:25:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34579BD9.4D7B bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:26:01 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page References: <01BCE3F9.9374D2C0.reed zenergy.com> <971029091959.ZM23930@me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mrVNL2.0.M76.W6tLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John E. Steck wrote: [snip] > In Dr. DeVree's defense, he does offer up a website address, but that location > , is lacking in any quantifiable > information to support his claims other than a brief outline of his hypothesis > for the operation of the device. [snip] I notice that Dr. DeVree lists one of his "Associates" as: http://www.artbell.com/rosreprt.html This is the hyperlink to Art Bell's web page and the report on the alleged scrapings from the surface of a flying saucer which crashed in Roswell, NM (sent to Art anonymously). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 09:41:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27157; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:36:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:36:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:39:13 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Generating log equation from data points Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sX2fB2.0.Fe6.IGtLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vortexers- Here's a nifty routine written in good ol' GWbasic that will generate an equation from a set of logarithmically related data points . Just snip this message (and the headers) from the rest of the post , save in a file with the ".bas" in the filename and you're ready to go. This routine is very handy and quick in determining if your data points are related logarithmically - giving a sum of deviations squared >0 if they are not. I hope all you Qbasic programmers out there haven't thrown out GW basic- There's a lot of good stuff that's never been converted - BTW does anyone have a copy of the routine for the game "Lunar Lander"? Jim Ostrowski --------------------------cut here------------------ 10 CLS 13 GOTO 20 14 ERASE X,Y 20 T$="LEAST SQUARES FIT FULL LOG " 30 L=LEN(T$) 40 PRINT TAB(INT((80-L)/2+.5));T$ 50 PRINT:PRINT:PRINT:PRINT 60 PRINT "THIS PROGRAM PERFORMS A LEAST-SQUARES APPROXIMATION OF A LOGARITHMIC LINE. IT" 70 PRINT "ACCEPTS THE X & Y COORDINATES OF GIVEN DATA POINTS AND TRIES TO PRODUCE A BEST" 80 PRINT "FIT LINE THAT REPRESENTS THE DATA .THE EQUATION OF THE LINE IS:" 90 PRINT:PRINT " Y=B*X^M" 100 PRINT 110 PRINT "WHERE M AND B ARE CALCULATED BY THE PROGRAM..." 120 PRINT 130 INPUT "HOW MANY DATA POINTS";N 140 DIM LX(N) ,LY(N) ,X(N) ,Y(N) 150 PRINT 160 PRINT "ENTER DATA" 170 FOR I=1 TO N 180 PRINT "X";I" Y";" "; 190 INPUT X(I),Y(I) 200 NEXT I 210 X1=0 220 Y1=0 230 XY=0 240 X2=0 250 FOR I=1 TO N 252 A=X(I) 254 B=Y(I) 260 LX(I)=(LOG(A))/LOG(10) 270 LY(I)=(LOG(B))/LOG(10) 280 Y1=Y1+LY(I) 290 X1=X1+LX(I) 300 XY=XY+LX(I)*LY(I) 310 X2=X2+LX(I)*LX(I) 320 NEXT I 330 J=N*X2-X1*X1 340 IF J<>0 THEN 360 350 PRINT:PRINT "NO SOLUTION FOUND ":END 360 M=(N*XY-X1*Y1)/J 370 M=INT( 1000! *M+.5)/1000! 380 LB=(Y1*X2-X1*XY)/J 390 B=10^LB 400 B=INT( 1000! *B+.5)/1000! 410 D=0 420 D2=0 430 FOR I=1 TO N 440 D2=D2+(LY(I)-M*LX(I)-LB)^2 450 D2=INT(1000! *D2+.5)/1000! 460 NEXT I 470 PRINT 480 PRINT "THE EQUATION THAT BEST FITS THE GIVEN DATA IS:" 490 PRINT:PRINT"Y = ";B; "*X^";M 500 PRINT:PRINT "FOR THIS EQUATION ,THE SUM OF THE DEVIATIONS SQUARED IS ";D2 510 PRINT:PRINT 520 INPUT "DO YOU WANT TO INTERPOLATE DATA ";A$ 530 IF LEFT$(A$,1)="n" THEN 600 ELSE IF LEFT$(A$,1)="N" THEN 600 540 PRINT:INPUT "ENTER X";X 550 PRINT:PRINT 560 Y=B*X^M 570 Y=INT(100*Y+.5)/100 580 PRINT " Y= ";Y 590 GOTO 510 600 INPUT "WOULD YOU LIKE TO ENTER DIFFERENT DATA (Y OR N)";D$ 610 IF LEFT$(D$,1)="y" THEN RUN ELSE IF LEFT$(D$,1)="Y" THEN RUN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 09:42:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05670; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:38:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:38:26 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:41:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Corridor Light Speed Demo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Psgeu.0.UO1.GItLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Light Speed Measurement in a Darkened Hallway or Corridor [*] . f| () | . e | /_| | . . g | . . | . . L _ _ | | |: - - - - \| - - -()=()- - -[ | g c .-|_| / | a /_/ |_ h [~] b An anolog oscilloscope (a) ,Tektronics type 545 or equivalent is the primary instrument in the system (a) and (b) by measuring the length of time it takes for a light beam to traverse two different paths of known length. The speed is then determined from the time - distance relation. A pulse generator (b) is connected to the horizontal sweep trigger input of the oscilloscope so that it will sweep out a time base of .1 usec/div (cm) on the screen at the rate of 250 sweeps/sec. At the far left of the screen a piece of black tape with a small hole in it's center is placed so that when the sweep begins the hole will be illuminated by the trace from behind. The light that comes through this hole will be picked up by projection lens (c)(f=150mm) and colimated so that it will be reflected by a mirror (d) about 15 m away, falls into a condenser lens (e) (220 mm in diameter) and is focused on photomultiplier (f). Two small prisms (g) are placed so that a part of the light beam is diverted onto a much shorter path into the photomultiplier. The signal from the multiplier is input to the y amplifier of the scope without intermediate amplification. Screens are used to block unwanted light paths (not shown). A tv camera , h, is used to monitor the output of the scope screen for large group demonstrations. [ . ] ____________________/_____________/ tape w/hole |<-10^-7 sec->| / / short path ../ / ...long path With the room darkened , the pulse generator is turned on and the photomultiplier pickup causes two vertical displacements as shown above. The distance between them can be measured and converted to time units through the scope sweep rate. The path difference is the distance from the first prism to the mirror plus the distance from the mirror to the second prism minus the separation distance of the two prisms, all distances measured from the reflecting surfaces. CAUTION: Cover the photomultiplier before turning on the lights. Electroluminescent nightlights can be used to iluminate the apparatus that must be operated. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 09:47:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28350; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:44:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:44:30 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34570086.40D5 keelynet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:40:41 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: megalith transport, pyramid building] Resent-Message-ID: <"yeNyx1.0.ew6.fNtLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry - > I have FAR FROM GIVEN UP....just a slightly > different approach...new insights all the > time...especially from Russia.......seeya! "Seeya"? Ok, looking forward to it. Will you be arriving on granite or limestone? ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 10:01:42 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09072; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:56:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:56:06 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971029091959.ZM23930 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> References: Reed Huish "RE: Comments from Science Misconceptions page" (Oct 29 <01BCE3F9.9374D2C0.reed zenergy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:52:45 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Comments from Science Misconceptions page Resent-Message-ID: <"LH1mw2.0.cD2.qYtLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Steck wrote: > I think his willingness or unwillingness to engage > in discussion would speak loudest towards > questions of his credibility. The claim of having had excess power destroy the original device, and now to be seeking funding for a new one, speaks loudly too. He must be a student of 'Professor' Searle. The amount and type of material disclosed on his web site on his invention seems to indicate inventors disease of the worst kind: the dreaded I-haven't-got-a-clue-let-alone-a-working-device variety. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 10:03:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09662; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:00:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:02:53 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Observing Charge Carriers in Glass Dielectric Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cyHcu.0.oM2.gctLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Observation of Charge Carrier Motion in a Glass Dielectric The movement of charge carriers in a glass dielectric can be observed with the following apparatus: ___________ 10 - 12 kv (DC) | | + _____| | | |___________| | b | ____|____ _________ |------------------=========--------------|_________| | --------- c a | d | ----- --- . A low power helium - neon laser (a) illuminates a projection screen (d) after the beam passes lengthwise through the plane of the glass dielectric of capacitor (c). A diffused pattern from the laser beam will appear on the screen. With the room darkened , the high voltage supply (b) is switched on. The motion of the separating charge carriers is thus observed as a disturbance of the diffusion pattern on the screen . Jim Ostrowski (jimostr ctainforms.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 11:11:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20794; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:02:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Recipe for a Gizmo, O-U? Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce49c$f921bc20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"bCSY_3.0.p45.QXuLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex For the brave, here is an electrically heated pipe-alkaline water- fired clay experiment. 1 ea. 4500 watt 240 volt water heater element, 1" male pipe thread. 1 ea. 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" x 18" seamless schedule 80 pipe. 2 ea. bell reducers 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" x 1" 1 ea. pressure gauge 0 to 5,000 psi 1 quart K2CO3-water mix. 1 quart 16 + mesh crushed common brick. Use 120 volts for the immersion heater, pour in brick aggregate and K2CO3-water, seal tightly. get behind blast shield before applying power. :-) Send the Bill for parts and labour (about $30.00)to Jed if you get verifiable Over-Unity. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 11:31:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12287; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:26:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:26:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:23:23 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Corridor Light Speed Demo Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"IkPRj2.0.n_2.QtuLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Jim Ostrowski described a device to perform "Light Speed Measurement in a Darkened Hallway or Corridor." I am not sure what this is doing here in Vortex, but I'm glad it showed up. I wis someone should set up this arrangement at a high elevation in a building made of wood, in order to redo the Michelson-Morley experiment. It should be performed four times in one year. I just read about this in a good book: H. Collins, T. Pinch, "The Golem," (Cambridge University Press, 1993) The M-M experiment was terribly difficult to perform a hundred years ago. I suppose it would be easier and more accurate today, with modern instruments. There was little follow-up on the original experiment, despite the fact that is often cited as one of the crucial experiments underlying special relativity. The only significant, careful replication of M-M was performed in 1924 by Miller. Collins and Pinch say: He concluded, in 1925, that he had found an observed motion of the earth of about 10 kilometers per second -- around one third of the result that the original Michelson experiments were expected to find. In 1925, Miller was awarded the 'American Association for the Advancement of Science' prize for his work. Thus, although the famous Michelson-Morley experiment of 1887 is regularly taken as the first, if inadvertent, proof of relativity, in 1925, a more refined and complete version of the experiment was widely hailed as, effectively, disproving relativity. This experiment was not conducted by a crank or charlatan. It was conducted by one of Michelson's closest collaborators, with the encouragement of Einstein, and it was awarded a major honour in the scientific community. I gather that's where mainstream science left off the aether question: unresolved, untested, taken for granted. And they say we don't have proof of cold fusion! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 11:33:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12653; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:28:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:28:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710291927.LAA00197 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: Subject: OFF TOPIC: Sociopaths, WAS "Comments from Science Misconceptions" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:25:01 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vE3um1.0.a53.0vuLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rick! > > > No offense to Dr. de Vree if it is for real, it just > > sounds like a parody... > > ... of DePalma or Tewari? Rotating magnets, differential vortices - sounds > like someone's getting high efficiencies from a homopolar. If all the rotating magnet machines were laid end to end they would reach to the (hollow :-) moon. None of them have ever survived independent verification, AFAIK. I would like to be proven wrong. It took me until the second time I heard the spot to > realize this is what blatant, unsophisticated political propaganda sounds > like - a hilarious parody. It was quite a shock when I realized the radio > spot was real. > > This man is a mass murderer. His foot is on the necks of his own people as > well as that of the Tibetans. He sells nuclear stuff to Iran. Does it > really matter how sweetly he plays the steel guitar? > > These days, if it sounds just like a parody, it's probably real. > Unfortunately you're right, Rick. While in my store one day I flipped through a book about how to tell if someone was a sociopath (of the "garden variety criminal-politician-used car salesman" type). It seems that sociopaths often use big words in inappropriate places, make the same totally unbelievable claims over and over with a straight face, and rationalize all actions so "it's not their fault", among other indicators. These characteristics arise becasue the sociopath has no feelings (literally), so they have to create an abstract model of human behavior within themselves, and the model is not very accurate. They actually believe that people will accept the same outrageous lie a hundred times, and they are right just enough of the time to reinforce their model. The book said that sociopaths were actually quite easy to detect, but that since most people are basically good and honest, they assume the same of others around them, and themselves rationalize the warning signs away. The book said that sociopaths exist in every area of life, always at about the same 1-5 % and are responsible for most human evil, directly or indirectly (by traumatizing a "normal" so that their own behavior becomes destructive). Since reading this book and putting it down (and forgetting everything about it) I find that it sticks with me and explains more of the mess on this planet than any theories of mass social or political behavior. By this concept, the political system is good that detects and prevents sociopaths from holding power. Fred From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 12:52:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09445; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:41:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:41:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971029143653.006e775c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:36:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Rich Murray Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"er_2.0.OJ2.zzvLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I think Rich Murray should be commended for his efforts. He is reading the papers, drawing conclusions, and asking questions. That's what you're supposed to do with papers and this is a good forum to voice those opinions and ask those questions. ...but Jed says: >Murray has no credibility in this field. His critiques are not worth reading, >and not worth responding to. This is just wrong. Rich understands the issues at hand perfectly well. His style may piss off some folks but at least he takes the time and expends the energy to engage in this work. ... and Mike Carrel...who, to his credit, responds pretty thoroughly to Rich... says: >Clear evidence for >anomalous energy exists, yet he refuses to understand it, always finding >some negative opinion, whether relevant or not. Correction, Mike: Clear evidence for anomalous energy has been PRESENTED IN THE PAPERS. What the discussion is all about is whether or not the evidence presented is valid. Anyone who assumes that it is valid just because it has been printed in a paper is hopelessly gullible. >His critical analyses apply >only to favorable data, not to the "negative" data, which are embraced and >broadcast. You cannot complain...you guys are right on the other side of this coin. You embrace and broadcast all "positive" data that comes your way. Please continue your work, Rich. It is valuable and stimulating. Mike & Jed, I urge you to engage Rich in meaningful dialog. Only then can we extract something truly useful from these papers. Meanwhile, I will continue trying to observe excess heat in this laboratory. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 13:08:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23895; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3457A3EC.3FD1 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:00:28 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo References: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XPGOC2.0.Hr5.FIwLq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > To: Vortex > > Jim Ostrowski described a device to perform > "Light Speed Measurement in a Darkened Hallway or Corridor." > I am not sure what this is doing here in Vortex, but I'm glad > it showed up. I wis someone should set up this > arrangement at a high elevation in a building made of wood, > in order to redo the Michelson-Morley experiment. It would be hard to do as controlled an experiment as the original MM---they had the physics building at U of Chicago built from stone and wood (no metal) to reduce EM interference (Modern benefit: I got good radio reception in my office in the basement....) > > I just read about this in a good book: > > H. Collins, T. Pinch, "The Golem," (Cambridge University Press, 1993) > > I gather that's where mainstream science left off the aether question: > unresolved, untested, taken for granted. For what its worth, Cold Fusion physicist Dr. Roberto Monti has a published paper from ~ 10 years ago wherein he argues that the theoretical analysis of the M-M experiment was flawed as well. I haven't read it in enough detail to say whether his criticisms have merit, but it was published in a refereed journal, I recall, one devoted to fundamental issues in physics. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 13:23:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15483; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:15:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:15:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:10:26 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: MM Experiment Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MIjdg.0.on3.vTwLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just suppose: There IS some sort of aether. And it is somehow distorted by or related to gravity. So you point the MM interferometer up out of the gravity well ... and the second set is perpendicular to the well. Well? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:22:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01705; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:15:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:15:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3457B524.E34A31C6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:43:56 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Details References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TGFk13.0.IQ._LxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank C. Earl wrote: > > Greg, have you considered injection molding? There should be some > way to injection mold polycarbonate or polysulfone (How about Teflon > or something similar?) in such a manner that it wouldn't need to be > milled or polished. > > -- > Frank C. Earl Injection is the way to go. Just need $7000 Aus for the molds. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:22:54 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01060; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:13:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:13:57 -0800 Message-ID: <3457B4C6.EBB1FB59 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:42:22 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Ferrite Rods References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UyZQF2.0.LG.ZKxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank C. Earl wrote: > > > I have today secured 12 of the 9 x 10mm ferrite rods I am using in my > > PMOD development. > > Cool. > > > If you wish to duplicate the PMOD results and REPORT your results > > here, I will send you rod. No Cost. That way, we all are using the > > same material and there is no MAGIC. > > > > Just send me your snail mail address. > > > > First come, first served. > > This is awesome. Shame I can't see myself being able to commit to > doing this in time to justify taking you up on this offer. Could you > possibly put up some permeability, etc. information about the > ferrites up on the RMOG/PMOD pages- we also need to see if it's an > effect with just the ferrites you're buying or if it's exactly as > you're describing and applicable to all ferrites (To which, I think > I can happily say I'd like to work towards...). > > Again, I'd like to say how much I appreciate what you're offering us > all on this list. > -- > Frank C. Earl Hi Frank, All I have been able to find out so far is that they are AM Radio rods from Korea. The local supplier has requested FULL data for me. I have found a Siemens ferrite supplier who thinks he has a few rods. Most of the ferrites suppliers stock are for power or suppression. Not much call for rods. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:22:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02190; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:16:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:16:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971029171901.00a59c70 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:19:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo In-Reply-To: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pKx702.0.vX.7NxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:23 PM 10/29/97 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >I gather that's where mainstream science left off the aether question: >unresolved, untested, taken for granted. And they say we don't have proof of >cold fusion! Nonsense. I remember a talk on a 1960's repeat of the MM experiment at MIT. The apparatus was so sensitive that they had to wait for the MBTA to shut down at night to get good data, and even then they were less than an order of magnitude better than MM. More recent experiments in this area have been a side effect of gravity wave detection experiments. There is an interferometer with legs a 1/4 mile long that is looking for gravity waves. Any deviation from true relativity would be detected since the legs are at right angles on the earth's surface. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:28:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04193; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:23:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:23:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3457B6F4.43FB4832 microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:51:40 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD Ferrite Rods References: <34567ABE.AFB5F62C microtronics.com.au> <34574038.70A@tu-bs.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M7MT62.0.H11.HTxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tameer Hohnsbein wrote: > > Greg Watson wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > I have duplicated your PMOD design (circuit2) as far as I could, > I took the BUZ20 instead of the IRF510 and 74Fxx instead of 74ACxx. > I can see nearly the same current pictures as shown on your site. > At the moment I have two problems: Glad to hear that. Replication is the best form of verification. > 1) I can't get the FET on for times shorter than about 70 ns. The best I can currently get is 30ns. > I guess it's my noisy bredboard and the FET. Will build it again the > next days. I am doing a new design to achieve < 15ns. > 2) My scope at home is an old 20Mhz Hameg. I can only test the device Mine is only a 50Mhz unit. > at my working place with a 100Mhz TEK for about one hour per day. > So I am not very fast with testing at the moment. > > I appreciate your offer to send the rod over the world. The results > will more be reproduceable I think. > Since I am slow with testing and I think my ferrite is quite good I > don't want to be the first to get one of your ferrite rods. > If you have one spare in some days I would be happy to receive one > though :-) I can get plenty. They cost me $1.10 Aus. Just sent me your address, I will send you one. > For further investigations: can you figure out what sort of Material > your rod is made of ? Where did you get it from ? Is the source where > you got it still available since you wrote : The rods are sold by J-Car Electronics. Regular stock line. I have requested FULL data. > > "I have today secured 12 of the 9 x 10mm ferrite rods" > or are yours the last samples ? Plenty more available. Would NOT do this with a one off sample. > I really love the way you are sharing your work with us all. > I have learned much more during the last months from your postings > than during the last years testing in the dark. > > Thank you very much > > Tameer Hi Tameer, Thanks for the input and kind words. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:35:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05537; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:27:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:27:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3457B846.B27307BF microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:57:18 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: PMOD suggestion References: <199710291521.NAA11254 bigbox.plug-in.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zINlc3.0.8M1.QXxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Marcelo Puhl wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > Have you measured the FCRT of a magnetized ferrite rod ? > > Just curious. > > Marcelo HI Marcelo, No I haven't. I will give it a try, but I don't expect much as the domains are already VERY tightly held in physical alignment. Don't believe there will be much Bloch wall movement. Will report back. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:35:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07122; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:33:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:33:01 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:35:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <72015F1F83 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"gsza3.0.zk1.NcxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The M-M experiment was terribly difficult to perform a hundred years ago. I > suppose it would be easier and more accurate today, with modern instruments. > There was little follow-up on the original experiment, despite the fact that > is often cited as one of the crucial experiments underlying special > relativity. The only significant, careful replication of M-M was performed in > 1924 by Miller. Collins and Pinch say: > > - Jed I believe that there have been many experiments showing the invariance of the speed of light, down to the accuracy of a few meters per second. Not all of these used the M-M setup, although I do believe it has been replicated more than once. Most modern physics textbooks list several experiments confirming the invariance of the speed of light. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 14:47:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09539; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:40:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:40:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:40:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710292240.OAA12748 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Details Resent-Message-ID: <"fNhbM1.0.yK2.RjxLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg Watson wrote: >Injection is the way to go. Just need $7000 Aus for the molds. A long way from aluminum u-channel, eh? When we get our SMOTs, and we finally see it work, that $7000 shouldn't be too much trouble to raise. :-) Dan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 15:06:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16115; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:59:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 14:59:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3457A990.7F37 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:24:32 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo References: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oXDFR3.0.cx3.H_xLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I wis someone should set up this > arrangement at a high elevation in a building made of wood, in order to redo > the Michelson-Morley experiment. It should be performed four times in one > year. > In musing over Jed's post I stumbled across an interesting page-article via. search engine: http://circulartimes.com/complx.htm Any interest to Vortexians? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 15:27:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23836; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:16:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:16:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3457C3CF.171235FD microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:46:31 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG OPen Coil Sims Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bMCyb2.0.3q5.aFyLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have loaded a 20 image animated gif of the flux flow in the Rmog's stator during the passage of the flux gate. In the gif series the coil is open. I will later post another animated gif showing the difference with the coil shorted during the initial entry of the flux gate. The animation is 259Kb, but its worth the wait time to view the flux flow in the stator's core and through the flux gate. If you have Cel Assembler (Shareware), you can save the images to disc and view the individual frames. Most shareware sites have Cel Assembler. To get there, go to my home page, click on the RMOG link and select the "Open Coil" from the update list. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 16:12:15 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07503; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:04:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:04:30 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971029180407.ZM28124 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:04:07 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Francis J. Stenger" "Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo" (Oct 29, 5:03pm) References: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> <3457A990.7F37 interlaced.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"AzygA3.0.5r1.CyyLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 29, 5:03pm, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > In musing over Jed's post I stumbled across an interesting page-article > via. search engine: > > http://circulartimes.com/complx.htm > > Any interest to Vortexians? Yes. Thanks for passing it on. Interesting tid-bits are always welcome! (at least in my mail box.) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 16:52:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18419; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:45:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:45:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:45:17 -0500 (EST) From: lewis edward X-Sender: lewis3 staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: plasmoids by electrolysis In-Reply-To: <199710231022.VAA26109 main.murray.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RC7oO3.0.hV4.eYzLq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi. SO far there have been a few reports of plasmoids produced by electrolysis. Firt by Matsumoto, then by Shoulders in an article about Dash's electrodes, then by me about Miley's electrodes. and other parts of the cells. Scott Little and others have seen sparks and pits. Congradulations. This is an often observed phenomena over the past century, but I'd like to suggest that people look for the kinds of marks like rings and craters and grooves that they make. Just look at the components of the devices. There are 20 pictures of such marks on www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4946 Plasmoids produced by electrolysis has been known for decades, but now this research is covers other stress too. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 18:02:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05143; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:53:34 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3457B524.E34A31C6 microtronics.com.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:49:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Details Resent-Message-ID: <"O7BOs1.0.CG1.SY-Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg - > Injection is the way to go. > Just need $7000 Aus for the molds. You might want look into hard, clear, hand mix urethanes before you go for the $7000 molds. $700 would set you up with a good array of molds for small production in the hundreds or even few thousands of units. Are you that sure of the design? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 18:30:59 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13830; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:24:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:24:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:21:41 -0800 Message-Id: <199710300221.SAA29149 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: MM Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"QSs7K.0.zN3.v_-Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > Just suppose: > > There IS some sort of aether. OK, well that is easy, since there is! The universe is an intensely pressurized ocean of aether, and "particles" are soliton like standing waves coupled to a spacetime which is an acoustic structure of standing waves in that ocean. So there you go with the sub structure. > > And it is somehow distorted by or related to gravity. "Gravitation" is really easy to understand after you understand what a soliton like particle is all about. When you model particles as resonances in and made of, aether, you come to find that their wave energies must couple to and be driven by some background structure of organized acoustic oscillations. Put in simple terms, that structure is what you know as "spacetime". "space", is just the distance from one node to the next, and "time" is just the period of the standing waveforms oscillations. Thus, if you precess your position, you alter the numbers of nodes you pass by, and thus the numbers of "space" nodes to "time" nodes you experience. This all follows from the acoustics of the structures, but this is hard to relay or grasp from words. Gravitation then can be considered in either of two manners, Newtonian or GR. In Newtonian, all you need to consider is that your resonances (particles) are filtering out a tiny bit of Planck scale wave energy that is passing through your matter (remember that we are almost entirely empty space between nuclei, and I would say that the convergence of the vortices manifests at the Planck scale of E-35m, so we are really virtually empty, or just a bunch of aether waves) That filtering leads to a net thrust away from the source of the frequency shifted energy, deep space, and toward better filtered energy, earth or other nearby bodies. Thus, the mean aether density in the region of a massive body is amplified slightly. For GR, you can work instead with the spacetime curvature of the acoustic nodal structure. This occurs due to a density gradient in the aether. So the positions of the space nodes are altered around an object, and the density slows the waves and slows down the "time" period as well. You can equally think of gravitational lensing as being nothing more or less than a wave that is passing through a density gradient sort of like a crystal ball as an extreme example, though a graduated index optical fiber is more like the graduated index of refraction of the more dense region of aether around a galaxy. That density amplification is maintained by the attenuation of aether wave energy that is filtered by matter because the waves are out of frequency match with the local spacetime oscillations. That is what gravitation is for normal bodies like the earth etc. For stars, their fusion reactions are releasing aether so you must account for an additional effect not currently anticipated by GR or normal Newtonian gravitation. This is why astro physicists are so confused over the dark matter issue where 90 percent of the universe is supposed to be made up of some mysterious dark matter. Mass, in fusion reactions, is conserved. But it becomes a part of the aether ocean we call "empty space". So no one has noticed that it is going there. This means for example, that our sun has double the mass we think it does because we are not accounting for the spacetime curvature imposed by that aether flow. We only consider the frequency filtering phenomena. This also leads to problems in black hole gravitation where aether is flowing into the hole and condensing. The event horizon is where the aetehr flow velocity is equal to c. Not accounting for this behavior leads to the problem that we think the BH is pulling things inward, and is therefore **intrinsically stable**. The fact that the bh is confined by an inertial inflow and has a highly pressurized core of aether condensate leads to the realization that that core will explode and breach the inertial confinement if given a chance. And when we look out into our cosmos, once again we find a plethora of BH's that have blown their tops and are shooting jets and blobs (called quasars) out into the space to boil back to the vapor state. > > So you point the MM interferometer up out of the gravity well ... >and the second set is perpendicular to the well. There are too many problems with this. First of all, to construct the MM device, you must be able to rotate it and to establish interference patterns due to tiny distortions in the physical separations of the mirrors and lasers. But if you orient the apparatus in the vertical, the gravitational distortion will bend things around and you will have problems with separating that effect from any aether delay effect. But more importantly, aether is not flowing into the earth to provide some sort of pressure thrust downward. If it were, the pressure would simply build up, and then you get no more thrust. Remember that we are virtually empty and transparent. x-rays know this, gamma rays know this, neutrons know this and Planck scale wave energy at E-35 meters wavelength certainly knows that. Heck, the nuclei are transparent to that wavelength of wave energy. In any case, what you could do is to use the time delays for a radio signal to head to Mars as a means of tracking the aether time delays due to the relative motion through the aether of Mars and Earth. But remember that the earth is just made up of solitons OF aether. So to think you have some wind blowing past the earth is not so, either for the earths motion or for gravity. But the earth and Mars are in different orbital locations, so there is a shearing of the aether rotation velocity from one radius to the other. The Venus orbiter did this calculation and there was a dispute as to how to interpret the data, some people saying it showed a v+c profile for the time of flight of the radio energy. But note that v+c is exactly what you would expect if the Earth and Venus are moving around the sun in a whirlpool of aether, ie the aether is moving with us because we ARE aether. The reason it is so very difficult to prove, is because if Venus were in a different position following a slightly different orbital trajectory, then all the times work out. So what you need is an accurate radio telescope VLA system on Mars to locate the position of Mars relative to the distant cosmos, the same thing on earth, and then exchange separation distance information. Then you can plot the true position of both planets, their true velocities, and their separations. When you do that, you will find that there is a problem with the current thinking. As we cannot do that now, the researchers just fix the problem by altering the location of the planet. And remember, the errors are really small, so it isn't like you are going to have a spacecraft miss by a million miles. Anyway, the vertical version of the MM experiment would show nothing unusual, IMO, because aether is not flowing into the earth to cause gravity. What you might want to do is to put a Cavendish balance outside of a nuclear reactor to show that when the reactor powers up, the balance is pushed away due to the aether emissions. but you would need a huge balance where one end was in the way of the reactor being pushed radially to the reactor core, and the other end was along the radial axis so that it would not be pushed to offset the thrust on the first mass. An alternative would be to take the thing to a mountain range crest where the E-W view factor to space in the horizontal plane is better than the view factor along a NS line (or vice versa). Thus, when you measure G, you should get two different values depending on the orientation of the device and the orientation of the mountains. I have the mountains, just need the device! Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:06:29 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16556; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:01:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:01:48 -0800 (PST) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3457F88A.7C83 math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:01:30 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: nothing new under the sun... References: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> <3457A3EC.3FD1@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8bA3e1.0.c24.PY_Lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: here is an excerpt from cnn article on the life-on-mars-meteorite controversy: replace: Mars meteor/rock -> cathode metal bacteria/life -> new elements on Earth -> from lab fossil shapes -> eruption pits to see that its deja vu all over again... :-) ----------------------------- [objection from life-skeptics:] * The Mars rock was contaminated by bacteria on Earth..... [response from researchers] Gibson said 11 other Martian rocks found in Antarctica do not have the fossil shapes or chemistry of ALH84001. If contamination were a problem, all such rocks would have it. Furthermore, he said the traces of ancient life were found deep inside ALH84001, beyond the reach of natural contamination. ------------------------------ -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:06:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23223; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:02:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:02:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3457F8C7.1A81 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:02:31 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (off topic) LUNAR ANOMALIES Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vFbmI3.0.mg5.1Z_Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim O. and others interested, see: http://circulartimes.com/moon.html Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:10:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23625; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:04:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:04:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971030110608.006cddec cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:06:08 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971029171901.00a59c70 spectre.mitre.org> References: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"z64x.0.ym5.7b_Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 17:19 29/10/97 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > Nonsense. I remember a talk on a 1960's repeat of the MM experiment at >MIT. The apparatus was so sensitive that they had to wait for the MBTA to >shut down at night to get good data, and even then they were less than an >order of magnitude better than MM. > > More recent experiments in this area have been a side effect of gravity >wave detection experiments. There is an interferometer with legs a 1/4 >mile long that is looking for gravity waves. Any deviation from true >relativity would be detected since the legs are at right angles on the >earth's surface. Not quite right. AFAIK there are no long baseline interferometers actually finished and working yet although there are 4 or 5 being built and one or two more still hopeing for funding (we are one of those). They generally aim for arm lengths of 3 or 4 kilometers although GEO600 (the joint German/British one) is only 600metres for reasons of cost. They will not detect speed of light anisotropy since they cannot be turned like the MM aparatus (!!) and they do not have rigid arms (the mirrors are suspended and servoed to a dark fringe). They are only intended to detect frequencies from a few tens of Hertz through a KiloHerz or two (ie audio). They will not detect variations over 24hours! There are *many* experiments which prove the round trip travel time of light to be isotropic but very few which attempt to measure the *one-way* travel time and most of these are flawed as far as being able to detect the difference between a Lorentz type aether and true special relativity. Marinov (lately deceased by suicide) championed this cause and did several experiments which found an anisotropy corresponding to the microwave background. But he was a very rough and ready experimenter and almost no-one (including myself) trusts his results. AFAIK there is maybe only one one-way speed of light experiment done fairly recently to detect the difference between true SR and a Lorentz type aether and it fell out resoundingly on the side of SR. I haven't put in the effort to find out if there may be a hole in it. I would very much like to see one of Marinov's experiments redone carefully though. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:12:14 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25832; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:10:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:10:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971030111207.006cf0d4 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:12:07 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: MM Experiment In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"irBMu.0.IJ6.Rg_Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 16:10 29/10/97 -0500, John Schnurer wrote: > Just suppose: > There IS some sort of aether. > And it is somehow distorted by or related to gravity. > So you point the MM interferometer up out of the gravity well ... >and the second set is perpendicular to the well. > Well? This experiment has been done very carefully by a chinese fellow named Lee Yong Gui (or something like that). He came and worked in our lab for some months and told us about it. I haven't read his paper but he got a null result agreeing with SR so I didn't think it was that interesting. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:23:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29057; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:19:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:19:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971029221626.006bd200 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:16:26 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: nothing new under the sun... In-Reply-To: <3457F88A.7C83 math.ucla.edu> References: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> <3457A3EC.3FD1 math.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DdY922.0.p57.1p_Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:01 PM 10/29/97 -0800, Barry wrote: >here is an excerpt from cnn article on the life-on-mars-meteorite >controversy: > >replace: Mars meteor/rock -> cathode metal > bacteria/life -> new elements > on Earth -> from lab > fossil shapes -> eruption pits > >to see that its deja vu all over again... :-) > > >----------------------------- > [objection from life-skeptics:] > > * The Mars rock was contaminated by bacteria > on Earth..... > > [response from researchers] > > Gibson said 11 other Martian rocks found in > Antarctica do not have the fossil shapes or > chemistry of ALH84001. If contamination were a > problem, all such rocks would have it. Furthermore, > he said the traces of ancient life were found deep > inside ALH84001, beyond the reach of natural > contamination. >------------------------------ > Actually, for it to be similar, the putative Martian life forms would need a DNA stereoconstellation NOT found on Earth. like right-handed coiling of the DNA, or a base-pair not found on Earth. There is substantial evidence for cold fusion, and clinging to the incorrect purported "negative" papers, or ignoring the growing literature, is not being serious. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:29:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29832; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:21:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:21:54 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Leidenfrost Tectonic-mobile Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce4ca$9fbb24e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"s13aY.0.tH7.Gr_Lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Figuring 188 lbs per cubic foot density for the Earth's crust, if one drills some strategically located "wells" about 16 miles deep and pressurizes them at about 100,000 psig, the build-up of supercritical steam should allow for a "leidenfrost effect" somewhat like spitting on a hot stove. Applied to a continent like Australia, for instance,with a good rudder and a qualified navigator, Australia could be moved up next to the British Isles, where it belongs. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 19:44:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01463; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:39:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:39:21 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:34:13 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: soliton Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"b3Ah2.0.bM.e50Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., and Ross T. You mentioned "soliton like particle" A soliton is NOT a particle! To anyone who wants to discuss solitons, let us do it initially off line. Big subject... little understanding ... my meat and potato! Well, I don't eat meat... have not since I was 13 ... but you know what I mean. Remember the soliton was first noticed before 1900 and the math was not put to it till the 60s ... heck it was not even BELIEVED much for a couple of decades! J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 20:08:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20190; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:04:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971029230300.00c95da0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:03:00 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: soliton In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"G-L-61.0.Ox4.IT0Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:34 PM 10/29/97 -0500, John Schnurer wrote: > > > Dear Vo., and Ross T. > > You mentioned "soliton like particle" > > > A soliton is NOT a particle! > > > To anyone who wants to discuss solitons, let us do it initially >off line. Big subject... little understanding ... my meat and potato! > > > Well, I don't eat meat... have not since I was 13 ... but you >know what I mean. > > Remember the soliton was first noticed before 1900 and the math >was not put to it till the 60s ... heck it was not even BELIEVED much for >a couple of decades! > Would you at least share your definition of a soliton? Thanks. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 20:24:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21162; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:20:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:20:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:17:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199710300417.WAA26686 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: One hand To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ffxOc3.0.WA5.sh0Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ES wrote: >Hands on building, beats any vaporware -eh :> >?Now, 'WHY' is it leaving the end of the track? >My FIRST attempt was *SO* Impressive I revisualize it when I close my >eyes at night (Every %$# NIGHT!).. and smile myself to sleep :) Zzzz >IT IS (o/u) THERE!! >---- >Agreed, VERY COOL THING!! > >-=se=- > >ps: Greg is plagued too with the same nightmare (err sweet Dream :) ==================================================================== Ahh! Now it's dreamware. Excellent observation Mr. Ekwall! No, actually Mr. Watson's nightmare is wondering when it is all going to hit the fan. He can't hold all the balls in the air for much longer. I used "vapor" ideas to describe Mr. Watson's work, but Mr. Watson prefers the term "vaporware" to frame his agruments. That's ok too. Oh! Yet another delay in shipment of the "works every time out of the box smot" (well with just a little polishing). Uuugh!!! <=== Mr. Watson moving the goal posts and changing the rules again in the middle of the night. And, the purchasers of the smot kits sheepishly tuck their tails in embarrassment and remain silent, afraid of offending Mr. Watson by demanding valid data. Truly a sad state of affairs. But, they all know who they are and shall live with their inaction. A very close and pathologic parallel to American politics, these smoter & rmoger o/u wannabes. The great unwashed masses KNOW the American politician lies and continually moves the goal posts, but with a shrug of the shoulders they carry on without the the courage to protest or demand accountability. The whole impass can be very easily solved and Mr. Watson will look like a hero to the whole world. Accept Mr. Watson at his word that he has created these o/u devices that he has posted run for extented periods of time. He has posted his results and they are part of the public record. Demand data and accountability, not an animation video, but a video of the real thing he has told us he has created. Surely, a man with Mr. Watson's ability can produce a one hour video of any of his o/u devices that he claims operate in o/u mode. He will be world famous beyond compare just releasing a simple video. Failure to do so, after all the public claims by Mr. Watson, surely places him at risk of being cast among the charlatans that give our science such an unsavory and abysmal reputation. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:12:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20564; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:06:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:06:47 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710300505.XAA16681 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: One hand In-Reply-To: <199710300417.WAA26686 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> from Richard Wayne Wall at "Oct 29, 97 10:17:58 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:05:24 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ogsm92.0.E15.cN1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > Failure to do so, after all the public claims by Mr. Watson, surely > places him at risk of being cast among the charlatans that give our > science such an unsavory and abysmal reputation. I do believe you are exceeding the limits of cordiality that are the hallmark of this e-mail group. I believe there are better words to use to get your same point across. BTW It would be a trivial matter to fake a device for a video to show over-unity, so your ungracious demand for one would accomplish nothing in any event. If Watson is in it for the money, by his status list, he's only ahead $3450.00 AUS. If it is a scam, and since he has been working on it publicly since about May or so, that's six months, or roughly $575 AUS a month. Not exactly a get rich quick scheme. In fact, there were a number of demands early on that he provide a working model, and that demand evolved to "roll-around" versions. Independent replication is the best course -- I think some of us only disagree on his desire to mass produce rather than lend out his initial hand-crafted devices. Now it is my personal belief that he will never get these things working (for the obvious reason) and that is why I haven't sent for a kit. But I think everyone understood the risk that this highly speculative O-U stuff might have another explanantion -- and since I don't see your name on the list, I don't think you have much of a complaint coming. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:15:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21242; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:10:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:10:37 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:12:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Pockel Cell Light Speed Measurement Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1910929790-890597436-878188338=:3067" Resent-Message-ID: <"Mjn5P3.0.oB5.CR1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --1910929790-890597436-878188338=:3067 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=dos-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE The following was a public newsgroup posting in alt.sci.physics.new-theories about six months ago. I have written and had interesting email dialog about it with the author , Ralph Sansbury.=20 He has OK'd my discretionary use of the attached MSDOS com.file which is a self - executing graphic capture of a cad diagram I did of his setup . Ladies and Gentlemen ..(BTW ARE there any ladies in this group?)..Here's "Doc" Sansbury=20 (My nickname for him -- I am not sure of his educational background but so what.) Sansbury on his experiment We tend to think of light as a thing, eg, a wave front in a massless ether, a massless photon, or now, according to quantum electrodynamics and photonics, as a probabilistic photon. But suppose light was instead the cumulative effect of instantaneous forces at a distance for distances large relative to the atom. Then if we could emit a brief, say 10 nanosecond, laser pulse of light toward a photodiode 28 feet away but blocked the light path at the photodiode until the expected time of arrival of the beginning of the light pulse (28 nanoseconds later) we might not observe any signal above background noise in the photodiode. Whereas if we left the photodiode unblocked for all or some of the .3= 8 nanoseconds of emission time plus travel time and observed a signal, then our supposition would be prvven. An experiment was carried out under contract with Quantum Technology, a manufacturer of Pockel crystal modulators, to determine the validity of this supposition. The light source was a continuous laser (514nm Argon laser,Spectra Physics 168-69)that could be blocked or unblocked at the source by applying to a Quantum Technology ADP crystal directly in front of the laser; a 100 volt pulse from a Quantum Technology voltage driver model 3100 across the crystal rotated the polarization of light transmitted by the crystal 90 degrees. The light would then be blocked or transmitted by a polarizer until the voltage was reduced to zero. The rise and fall times of transmission using these devices is according to specs 7nsec. An identical crystal modulator and polarizer and voltage driver was placed in front of a photodiode receiver 18 feet from a mirror that itself was 10 feet from the source polarizer. The drivers were controlled by 1 volt pulses from pulse generators. On the first pulse generator(an HP 8004A) the pulse width of the square source pulse was set to 10nsec and the cycle time to 3.3mhz (300nsec). Initially only the first modulator was pulsed and the laser power emitted at first was about 25 mV sufficient to produce a 3mV maximum reaction of the photodiode when the photodiode was unblocked; then a .1volt increase on the rising edge of the 10nsec pulse every 300nsec triggered the second pulse generator (a Data Pulse 113). The delay on the second pulse generator was set as required; this delay time represented the time between the trigger from the first pulse generator and the pulse producing a transmission =91puls=92 in fr= ont of the photodiode; this delay was set to 28nsec minus the cable delay; the distance from the source optics to the receiver optics was 28 feet; this delay was reduced by one nsec and the transmission pulse width was widened by one nsec in successive steps until no further increase in the phodiode response was produced. All other windows of this width produced smaller photodiode responses. Then the laser power was quadrupled and the delay and pulse width adjusted as before to produce the maximum photodiode response and non noise area of the response curve. The connections between the source pulse driver and crystal modulator and those between the receiver pulse driver and crystal modulator were 12 feet and those between the pulse drivers and pulse generators were 6 feet as were the connections between the pulse generators and the oscilliscope The connections between the two pulse generators was 1 foot and the electrical delay adjustment was made as described above. The spec delay of the cable was confirmed by sending a pulse from the pulse generator into two channels of the oscilliscope where one connector was 1 foot longer using this piece of cable. Hence the time between the trigger point on the oscilliscope and the square pulse of the second pulse generator was the time to the nearest .1nsec between the actual trapezoidal pulses of the crystal modulator in front of the laser and of that in front of the photodiode. The second channel of the oscilliscope showed the response of the photodiode, a FND-100Q from EEG,of Salem,Mass. connected to a bias voltage supply that was variable up to 100 volts; the rise time of the photodiode voltage through a 50ohm resistance was less than 1 nsec; that is it produced .36Amps/Watt at 514nm. Also according to specs the dark current was 10 to 25nAmps, the active surface is a square 2.24mm by 2.24mm. So 1mWatt produced 00036Amps which through a 50 ohm resistor produced about 1.8mV. A 12 foot cable was connected from the same side of the grounded resistor as the photodiode to an oscilliscope which registered non noise voltages when the receiver pulse of various widths had the right delay relative to the source pulse. It was apparent from this experiment that exposure of a photodiode to a flash of monochromatic light traveling toward the photodiode during the time of travel and before the expected time of arrival could produce a signal on the photodiode that was not produced if exposure was blocked until the expected time of arrival. Also in this experiment when the intensity of the laser flash was quadrupled, the delay before the rise time of the signal on the photodiode was halved etc.. To me these results imply that light is the cumulative effect of instantaneous forces; That light is perhaps not a moving thing like an ether wave front or a photon, even a probabalistic photon, would avoid the problem of the masslessness of the ether and of the photon but would pose other problems since we are so accustomed to thinking of light in this way. But if one can interpret the results of this experiment differently or if one can obtain different results let me know. The experiment was motivated by considerations such as that the Fizeau-Foucault -Michelson light speed measurments used various intensities but generally such that the intensity at the receiver lens was about the same in all these cases and that no attempt was made to measure variations in light speed associated with markedly different levels of intensity. Another consideration was that Bradley's stellar aberration light speed measurement sees to be explainable in terms of the cumulative effect of instantaneous forces at a distance. This implies that Roemer's light speed measurement could be due to changes in intensity of the light reflected by Jupiter's moons toward the earth due to the changes in distance between the Earth and Jupiter and these changes in intensity, not the speed of light, determined how soon one could spot a moon emerging from behind Jupiter. Indeed this interpretation is supported by the fact mentioned in Bradley's paper that other larger moons (eg Europa) did not show the same differences as Io. {end} --1910929790-890597436-878188338=:3067 Content-Type: APPLICATION/octet-stream; name="pcelexp1.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: +76BAIpM/zDtCcl0IFb8rDwNdAeAZP/f6fT/Xq1OPQ9GdAXi9+kFAMYG/wEB tA/NEDwHfALNIKL9AbQLuwABzRCi/gG0CzHbzRCg+QE6Bv0BdAQw5M0QHrhA AI7YoGUAHyT3ULraA+yoCHT7geoCAFhQ7osO+wHR6bgAuI7AvgACMf/zpaD5 AToG/QF0A+hRAKD6AYA+/wEAdAOg/gG62QPuWAwIgeoBAO6APv8BAHUotAK6 ABnNELgGDM0htAfNIbQLzRCg/QEw5M0Q6BMAtAu3AIoe/gHNELQCugAXzRDN IAa4QACOwL9sACahbAAFCAAmOQV1+wfDBj8AQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --1910929790-890597436-878188338=:3067-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:19:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22692; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:15:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:15:53 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:10:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: A wave form ... soliton In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971029230300.00c95da0 world.std.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"N-hsP2.0.PY5.7W1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A soliton is a waveform. It can be realized in light, in water as a wave, as an acoustical soliton. As a movement in domain wall. It is a wave form. And VERY cool! J On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > At 10:34 PM 10/29/97 -0500, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vo., and Ross T. > > > > You mentioned "soliton like particle" > > > > > > A soliton is NOT a particle! > > > > > > To anyone who wants to discuss solitons, let us do it initially > >off line. Big subject... little understanding ... my meat and potato! > > > > > > Well, I don't eat meat... have not since I was 13 ... but you > >know what I mean. > > > > Remember the soliton was first noticed before 1900 and the math > >was not put to it till the 60s ... heck it was not even BELIEVED much for > >a couple of decades! > > > > Would you at least share your definition of a soliton? Thanks. > > Mitchell Swartz > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:23:00 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23406; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:20:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:20:14 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:11:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Re: One hand In-Reply-To: <199710300417.WAA26686 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"I3P3e3.0.Xj5.Da1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bleet hawsws! On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > ES wrote: > > >Hands on building, beats any vaporware -eh :> > >?Now, 'WHY' is it leaving the end of the track? > >My FIRST attempt was *SO* Impressive I revisualize it when I close my > >eyes at night (Every %$# NIGHT!).. and smile myself to sleep :) Zzzz > >IT IS (o/u) THERE!! > >---- > >Agreed, VERY COOL THING!! > > > >-=se=- > > > >ps: Greg is plagued too with the same nightmare (err sweet Dream :) > > ==================================================================== > > Ahh! Now it's dreamware. Excellent observation Mr. Ekwall! > > No, actually Mr. Watson's nightmare is wondering when it is all going > to hit the fan. He can't hold all the balls in the air for much > longer. > > I used "vapor" ideas to describe Mr. Watson's work, but Mr. Watson > prefers the term "vaporware" to frame his agruments. That's ok too. > > Oh! Yet another delay in shipment of the "works every time out of the > box smot" (well with just a little polishing). Uuugh!!! <=== Mr. > Watson moving the goal posts and changing the rules again in the middle > of the night. And, the purchasers of the smot kits sheepishly tuck > their tails in embarrassment and remain silent, afraid of offending Mr. > Watson by demanding valid data. Truly a sad state of affairs. But, > they all know who they are and shall live with their inaction. > > A very close and pathologic parallel to American politics, these smoter > & rmoger o/u wannabes. The great unwashed masses KNOW the American > politician lies and continually moves the goal posts, but with a shrug > of the shoulders they carry on without the the courage to protest or > demand accountability. > > The whole impass can be very easily solved and Mr. Watson will look > like a hero to the whole world. Accept Mr. Watson at his word that he > has created these o/u devices that he has posted run for extented > periods of time. He has posted his results and they are part of the > public record. Demand data and accountability, not an animation video, > but a video of the real thing he has told us he has created. Surely, a > man with Mr. Watson's ability can produce a one hour video of any of > his o/u devices that he claims operate in o/u mode. He will be world > famous beyond compare just releasing a simple video. > > Failure to do so, after all the public claims by Mr. Watson, surely > places him at risk of being cast among the charlatans that give our > science such an unsavory and abysmal reputation. > > RWW > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:28:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24246; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:24:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:24:45 -0800 Message-ID: <34580C02.4958 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:24:34 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com Subject: [Fwd: Nice Report] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"48EjB3.0.kw5.Re1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from email.uah.edu (email.uah.edu [146.229.1.200]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11837 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ebs330.eb.uah.edu by email.uah.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/02Jul96-0938AM) id AA13575; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:13:28 -0600 Received: from HOTSTUF.uah.edu by eb.uah.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA01596; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:01:19 -0600 Message-Id: <34575FDD.58593B3B ebs330.eb.uah.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:10:05 -0600 From: "Jonathan E. Jones" Organization: Propulsion Research Center X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net Subject: Nice Report X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8EF566CF1FE057C97A654AC4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8EF566CF1FE057C97A654AC4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am Jonathan Jones, the author of "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100 % during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells." I haven't done anything with Cold Fusion since I finished the article. My work really dampened my enthusiasm. I do believe there may be a breakthrough somewhere in this mess, but I approach every report very skeptically. I have wondered if recombination could account for the excess heat in the CETI cells. Remember if the excess heat is greater than the input power I*V, then recombination can not account for all of the excess heat. I would want the list of questions you posed to be answered first before I would seriously look at it. Have you heard anything on ?? Mills lately? He was working on light water cells around the time of my work. He had reported at that time some results of excess heat greater than I*V in pulsed cells. I had some questions about the method in which they were calculating the power in and in there general calorimetric procedures. They were supposed to be marketing hot water heaters by now. I had another question on current density. My paper report current densities (Amp/AREA of electrode). Are the numbers form the other papers current densities or total currents(Amps)? We tried to match current densities of known experiments when we did our work. Heavy water cells run at substantially higher current densities. Jonathan --------------8EF566CF1FE057C97A654AC4 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jonathan E. Jones Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Jonathan E. Jones n: Jones;Jonathan E. org: Propulsion Research Center adr: University of Alabama in Huntsville;;RI E-13;Huntsville;AL;35899;USA email;internet: jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu tel;work: (205) 890 - 6331 Ext. 231 tel;fax: (205)890- 7205 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------8EF566CF1FE057C97A654AC4-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:29:25 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24840; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:27:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:27:31 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:30:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: soliton Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <78EA3F4B7B hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"lDSbw2.0.u36.1h1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I appreciate this kind of subject. Please post to vortex or if you really don't want to, please include me in the private discussion. Thanks, JAY OLSON > Dear Vo., and Ross T. > > You mentioned "soliton like particle" > > > A soliton is NOT a particle! > > > To anyone who wants to discuss solitons, let us do it initially > off line. Big subject... little understanding ... my meat and potato! > > > Well, I don't eat meat... have not since I was 13 ... but you > know what I mean. > > Remember the soliton was first noticed before 1900 and the math > was not put to it till the 60s ... heck it was not even BELIEVED much for > a couple of decades! > > > J > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 21:43:32 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26545; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:39:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:39:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34581D75.6FE6A3DF microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:09:01 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: One hand References: <199710300417.WAA26686 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uZBuL3.0.gU6.Hs1Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > > ES wrote: > > >Hands on building, beats any vaporware -eh :> > >?Now, 'WHY' is it leaving the end of the track? > >My FIRST attempt was *SO* Impressive I revisualize it when I close my > >eyes at night (Every %$# NIGHT!).. and smile myself to sleep :) Zzzz > >IT IS (o/u) THERE!! > >---- > >Agreed, VERY COOL THING!! > > > >-=se=- > > > >ps: Greg is plagued too with the same nightmare (err sweet Dream :) > > ==================================================================== > > Ahh! Now it's dreamware. Excellent observation Mr. Ekwall! > > No, actually Mr. Watson's nightmare is wondering when it is all going > to hit the fan. He can't hold all the balls in the air for much > longer. > > I used "vapor" ideas to describe Mr. Watson's work, but Mr. Watson > prefers the term "vaporware" to frame his agruments. That's ok too. > > Oh! Yet another delay in shipment of the "works every time out of the > box smot" (well with just a little polishing). Uuugh!!! <=== Mr. That is the goal. Requires many hours of effort in product development to achieve consistent results. > Watson moving the goal posts and changing the rules again in the middle > of the night. Its called continual PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT. I could have shipped the SMOT kits with 4 little ramps. Thats ALL I promished when the orders were placed. I did move the goal posts. To a HIGHER level of performance. Didn't notice that, did we Richard? > And, the purchasers of the smot kits sheepishly tuck > their tails in embarrassment and remain silent, afraid of offending Mr. > Watson by demanding valid data. Truly a sad state of affairs. But, > they all know who they are and shall live with their inaction. You truly are a unhappy puppy. Or do you do this as a profession? Ever tried to build 30+ units and get the same results? Ever tried to BUILD anything? Get real Richard. ASK anyone who has built a SMOT about how unstable they are at the best of times. But I guess you are NOT interested in reality. Just pushing more of your own hidden agenda. > A very close and pathologic parallel to American politics, these smoter > & rmoger o/u wannabes. The great unwashed masses KNOW the American > politician lies and continually moves the goal posts, but with a shrug > of the shoulders they carry on without the the courage to protest or > demand accountability. What has this to do with me? More of your hidden agenda coming out? You seem to take great delight in calling the members of this list names. I don't like that. You are talking about good people. People who actually build things. People who actually do things with their lives. Call me what you want. I will give back more than I get. But YOU OWE the other folks on this list an apology. I DEMAND you apologize to the other list members for your comments. If you want to have a shot at me, COME on DOWN. But leave the rest of the list members alone. I have warned you!!!!! > The whole impass can be very easily solved and Mr. Watson will look > like a hero to the whole world. Accept Mr. Watson at his word that he > has created these o/u devices that he has posted run for extented > periods of time. He has posted his results and they are part of the > public record. Demand data and accountability, not an animation video, > but a video of the real thing he has told us he has created. Surely, a > man with Mr. Watson's ability can produce a one hour video of any of > his o/u devices that he claims operate in o/u mode. He will be world > famous beyond compare just releasing a simple video. In these days of digital video editing, it amazes me that you put such a lot of credibility in a video. I openly post my data for anyone to check out. What better way to verify results? > Failure to do so, after all the public claims by Mr. Watson, surely > places him at risk of being cast among the charlatans that give our > science such an unsavory and abysmal reputation. I see you are appointing yourself as my judge. Come clean Richard, what is your real agenda? Confusing? Cast Doubts? Or are you just a S..t stirrer. > RWW Richard. I have another idea for your right hand, but you probably already know all about that activity. Who pays you to pop up every so often? Or do you get bored with the other right hand activity. In closing Richard, I have NO intention of producing a Video. My published results are what you will get. Results that will show ALL who want to read, build & verify the way to OU. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 23:35:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12714; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:30:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:30:16 -0800 Message-ID: <34582964.359 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:29:56 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless@rmii.com, design73 aol.com, storms@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, rgeorge@hooked.net, bhorst loc100.tandem.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis wazoo.com, ine@padrak.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, shellied sage.dri.edu, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, sukhanov@srdlan.msu.su, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, JNaudin@aol.com, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu Subject: Four possible calorimeter artifacts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GonWJ.0.a63.7U3Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 30, 1997 Dear all, I'm still bemused that I made the glaring error of seeing the Arata-Zhang cell as a flowing electrolyte experiment-- perhaps I have CETIphalitis, electrolyte flowing on the brain, from doing too many Miley Critiques? Decades ago, when a team dug out a Pharoah's tomb in Egypt, they found a durable flask with the name of the Pharaoh on it. They eagerly pried it open. An unmistakable vile odor filled the tomb-- the first found Pharoahic phartifact. The search for possible artifacts in cold fusion experiments, when attempted, is not an attack on cold fusion, or, if ever successful, a shaming rebuke to the researchers affected. The shared exploration of possible artifacts is vital in any program that seeks to open up new territory. Finding and sharing the paths that don't work helps us all eventually focus efficiently on what does work. The natural process of a research team is to focus single-mindedly on its chosen path. Naturally, an emotional investment develops that makes for an overly defensive posture to possible criticism. Yet, for one's own good, and the common good, criticism has to be actively encouraged, supported, enlisted, sought out, and carefully attended to. This requires tact on all sides, the willingness to abscribe good will to others, and, I suggest, a rich seasoning of humor. This morning, Sondra and I read from "Journey Beyond Words," by Brent Haskell, and settled into the familiar embrace of palpable silence. Deep in one corner of my psyche, a stream of comments and images emerged, persistently stirring the tranquility of mind. I will exorcise these thoughts by sharing them. They are about four possible artifacts in calorimetry. 1. thermister: Simple malfunction? Electrical short causing intermittent local ohmic heating? Sensitive to temperature, pressure, chemicals? Electronic glitches? Picking up signals from AC power lines and local RF? Were these possibilities checked out only before the experimental runs, during, or after, once or many times? With respect to the Arata-Zhang cell, when was the control Pt-Pt run done, and for how long? The experiments ran for over four years. 2. electrolyte or coolant flow: If the flow happens to be reduced 10% without being noticed, the result will be a spike or persistent 10% temperature rise, neh? Bubbles, suds, trapped gas pockets, gunk, metallic plating, ceramic deposits, loose parts? All can cause intermittent or persistent blocks of flow, with resulting artifacts of temperature and power output rises, spikes, and drops. Who knows what evil lurks deep in heart of opaque flow systems? Only the skeptic suspects. Only the thorough investigator knows. Also, variation in the pump due to deposits, bubbles, wear and tear, and electric power changes has to be considered. A detailed, precise, continuous record of flow is needed to establish valid claims of excess power in flow systems. 3. heterogenous flow: Persistent, segregated hot and cold flow streams within the piping, like cream patterns in stirred coffee, so that a hot source within the cell can cause a temperture rise in the outlet thermister, typically mounted on the outside of the pipe, that is more than the actual average temperature of the flow. A 10-20% spurious rise could invalidate much cold fusion calorimetry. Since a cooling pipe is immersed in the warmer electrolyte, wouldn't there be a tendency for only the outer layer of the flow to be be warmed and to carry this signal to the outlet thermister? Water is an excellent medium for heat transport, neh? Precautions have to be taken to definitively ensure actual thorough mixing before the outlet thermister. A related possibility is the Ranque-Hilsch tube effect: vortexes become hot on the outside and cold on the inside. Are vortexes developing in the flow? Changes in viscosity due to the chemical witch's brew developing gradually in the flow may also help produce these artifacts. 4. Mike Carrel asked how could there be electrolyte deposits in the top of a cell from evaporation, if the system is closed with 100% humidity. Bubbles popping at the surface would scatter droplets onto the top surfaces, and gradually deposits would form. Are such observed, rarely or commonly? If the deposits short out electrical wires, unmeasured ohmic heating could generate excess energy in the cell. So all possible electric sources near the system have to be considered, instruments, pump, heaters, etc. A leak in the system could cause a trail of electrolyte to connect with a distant electrical source. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 23:49:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14231; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:47:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:47:36 -0800 Message-ID: <34582DA3.4D33 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:48:03 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com Subject: [Fwd: James, not John, and selection rules] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"bZ3UD3.0.FU3.Mk3Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Path: nntp.earthlink.net!iagnet.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.flash.net!newsfeed.icanect.net!xenitec!zorch!fusion From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Subject: James, not John, and selection rules Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway Message-ID: <199710271716.MAA53871 pilot04.cl.msu.edu> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:20:45 GMT I guess I have to admit to having directed my response to the wrong Logajan. Sorry about that. Now perhaps I can clear up some of the valid questions James Logajan has raised concerning the "selection rule" argument. It would be nice if we had something as specific as "transformation paths, equations, or useful numbers" to bring to this discussion, but such things are notably lacking from any of the claims put forth by the likes of Professor George Miley. If Miley (or his supporters) were to suggest the specifics of reaction processes that could account for even the gross features they claim to observe I would be more than willing to tailor my comments accordingly. However, if I set out to construct a model for the reaction process myself and then proceeded to shoot it full of holes you would recognize the old "straw-man" ploy immediately. As I see it I have no choice but to deal with the Miley claims in the most general way making use of features common to all know reaction processes -- the fundamentals of quantum mechanical transitions. This is what brings us to Fermi's Golden Rule. In a nut shell it is the recipe by which all transition or reaction rates are to be calculated. For our purposes we need only note that there are two factors to be considered. One is a statistical (or density of states) factor and the other is a "matrix element" which connects the wave function of the initial state to the wave function of the final state. If there are no "non-zero" matrix elements there can be no transition. Selection rules are "reasons" for matrix elements being zero. For example, the angular momentum quantum numbers of assumed initial and final states must be connected by an operator that accounts for any changes in the the angular momentum portion of those wave functions. I assume that such restrictions still apply to the Miley reaction regardless of what the details may be. But I seriously doubt that anyone could sort through all the complexities to discover that the reaction product mix claimed by Miley is just the one allowed by angular momentum conservation. I suggest that the Miley claim contains the seeds for its own downfall in that it suggests a domain where selection rules as specific as the ones relating to angular momentum cannot account for the observed experimental outcome. The very concept of "massive transmutions" clearly implies such a large number of variables that statistics must come to play a dominant role as the observed outcome is a sampling of a large number of different and distinct processes. In other words there is a very large number of different matrix elements involved. That is why I suggest that the upset of the apple cart is an appropriate analogy. I could, I suppose, set out to begin to count possible reaction pathways so I could give you a number. But it's like Carl Sagan said, "Billions and Billions." Only that is not what Miley claims to observe. He claims a particular subset of possible reaction products. It is the characteristics of this particular subset that leads me to question the validity of the Miley claims. He says all the reaction products are "stable" and in their ground state. The difficulty I have with this is that "stable" is not a characteristic of a nuclear wavefunction subject to the constraints of selection rules as we know them. I can look in my Little Blue Book to see which nuclei are stable, but that information is not available to the reaction process itself. To be specific 63Cu is stable but 64Cu is not, but the matrix elements involved in the formation of 63Cu have to be very much like the matrix elements involved in the formation of 64Cu. The fact that there is nothing found after the assumed reaction that could not have been there initially is a pretty solid indications that there really is no reaction process involved! It's just sad to think that Miley can't tell the difference between "massive transmutations" and nothing happening. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 23:53:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14470; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:49:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:49:29 -0800 Message-ID: <34582E15.73F9 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:49:57 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, rgeorge@hooked.net Subject: [Fwd: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"bzOm12.0.xX3.8m3Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!mr.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz From: "d.b" Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: First Arata Errata: recombination Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:15:30 +0100 Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University Message-ID: References: <34518471.24F6 earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk In-Reply-To: <34518471.24F6 earthlink.net> Thank you, Rich Murray, for your Arata critiques. You do not go into their mass spec stuff, which seems to me to be the most interesting. Is there anyone out there who knows a thing or two about MS and can give us an idea of how reliable this work is? I have been pretty impressed by both the technique used by them (periodic cycling around a narrow mass range) and the results achieved (clearly growing peaks at what they say is 4He and even 3He, recently). -- Dieter Britz. Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 23:56:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05904; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:53:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:53:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:53:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710300753.XAA15488 franc.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq blue.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: One hand Resent-Message-ID: <"9Aw9j1.0.AS1.tp3Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg and all, Rational discussion, both pro *and* con, is valuable. But personal attacks are destructive, and responses to them are usually counterproductive. Although Mr. Wall mixes some valid concerns into his rants, he has unfortunately chosen to assume an extremely intemperate tone. Rising to the bait and responding in kind will only feed him; I would suggest that such posts be simply ignored. Nobody respond to them. He may then get bored and go away. Dan Quickert SMOT order #16 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 23:56:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06000; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:54:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:54:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34582F46.10D0 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:55:02 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov Subject: [Fwd: Re: JET 12/22 fusion breakeven is smoke and mirrors] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jZ9q11.0.fT1.qq3Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!iagnet.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz From: "d.b" Newsgroups: sci.engr,sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: JET 12/22 fusion breakeven is smoke and mirrors Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:17:22 +0100 Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University Message-ID: References: <62udkn$goo$1 dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <632vfc$re7$1@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <01bce428$b5442ca0$c8e445cf@deanmachine> <636ido$qlj$1@shadow.skypoint.net> <636jpc$o2p@news-central.tiac.n et> NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk In-Reply-To: <636jpc$o2p news-central.tiac.net> Xref: nntp.earthlink.net sci.engr:23902 sci.physics.fusion:17905 On 29 Oct 1997, Harry H Conover wrote: [...] > : Since we can't all investigate every possible field of human knowledge, > : we do end up, as a practical matter, accepting the pronouncements of > : people we consider authorities -- but that is, at best, a working or > : temporary hypothesis, and is not logically compelling. > > Quite true, but when those 'authorities' are Newton, Maxwell, Farraday, > Gauss, etc., their pronouncements are indeed logically compelling unless > one is qualified to offer somewhat well substantiated arguments to the > contrary -- and this is not a frequent event. ... and this was in fact the reason that, when I saw a newspaper item one Sunday in 1989 about "cold fusion", I sat up and took notice only after seeing the name of Fleischmann. Fleischmann and Bockris loom large in electrochemistry and if they believe something, one suspects that it must be true. To this day, and in part for this reason, I am undecided. -- Dieter Britz. Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 23:57:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14776; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:52:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:52:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34582ED9.298C earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:53:13 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, Bennett.Miller mailgw.er.doe.gov Subject: [Fwd: Constructing the myth of P&F success] Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"oN6x92.0.oc3.Dp3Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.magicnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news1.bellglobal.com!news.uunet.ca!xenitec!zorch!fusion From: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Subject: Constructing the myth of P&F success Reply-To: blue pilot.msu.edu (Richard A Blue) Sender: scott zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: Sci.physics.fusion/Mail Gateway Message-ID: <199710291600.LAA71204 pilot21.cl.msu.edu> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 16:04:33 GMT Jed Rothwell continues his determined effort to construct the myth that Pons and Fleischmann have been vindicated by subsequent 'developments' in cold fusion research. It does, however, take a rather massive rewrite of history in order for Jed to continue to peddle this fiction as a viable commercial product. Without getting bogged down in a total rehash of the ancient history of cold fusion I would like to mention just a few items which suggest that Jed Rothwell's version does not represent the true state of affairs. First I would point out that a key part of P&F's initial reports was a claim that they had detected neutron emission in conjunction with the production of excess heat. It is an established fact that their 'neutron signal' was an artifact, and that their recorded gamma-ray spectra gave conclusive evidence that no significant neutron emission was occurring. Although P&F never formally acknowledged that their neutron data was erroneous, they never produced further data to confirm their initial claim. I doubt that even Jed would claim that P&F claims regarding neutron detection have been confirmed. Instead P&F (along with most cold fusion advocates) joined a flight away from any association of neutron emission with claims for cold fusion success. It was, of course, the first clear evidence that cold fusion research was going "weird" on us. Because the lack of observed neutrons provided clear evidence that cold fusion claims were generally bogus the true believers had to declare that their fusion was of a different realm -- a realm where harmful radiation is forever banished. Then, rather than improve on their calorimetry to put their claims for excess heat on more solid footing, P&F added a new twist to the experiment. They drove the reaction cell to boil, deliberately chose not to record key operating parameters during the boil off, and thus designed an experiment that was less well controlled and more error prone than their initial efforts! I can think of only one reason for designing an experiment to generate data with larger error bars, and that would be because you need large errors inorder to have the "effect." Jed Rothwell asserts that the boiling recorded on video tape is proof that the 'effect' is real. That is simply a falsehood. The input power to the cell was sufficient to produce boiling even in a complete absence of any source of excess enthalpy from within the cell. Then there were some obviously strange features of the recorded data that Pons and Fleischmann reported. Most notably the response of the temperature sensor following the boiloff cried out for some further explanation. If this series of investigations had been legitimate is it not reasonable to assume that Pons and Fleischmann would have improved the experimental design and continued this line of investigation? The subsequent history of Pons and Fleischmann's research into cold fusion is something that Jed simply overlooks, but nothing speaks louder to the failure of that research program than its quiet abandonment. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 01:29:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21781; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:22:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:22:07 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710300417.WAA26686 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:18:45 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: One hand Resent-Message-ID: <"BnMow.0.AK5.-65Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard - I think most of us would like to know the ultimate truth or validity of the controversial subjects of discussion here, and certainly that of the ongoing development projects and experiments that have been undertaken by some list members. I'm sorry the activity by the people on these lists apparently concerns you so much that you have forgotten your manners. I assure you that's not the way to reach people here. I hope you would reconsider making any further postings here until you make a full recovery. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 02:55:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14905; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:40:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:40:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 03:40:49 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: One hand In-Reply-To: <199710300417.WAA26686 dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kvM5X.0.pe3.kG6Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: -little or no snip - sorry- :) >>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:17:58 -0600 (CST) >>Subject: Re: One hand >>ES wrote: >> >>>Hands on building, beats any vaporware -eh :> >>>?Now, 'WHY' is it leaving the end of the track? >>>My FIRST attempt was *SO* Impressive I revisualize it when I close my >>>eyes at night (Every %$# NIGHT!).. and smile myself to sleep :) Zzzz >>>IT IS (o/u) THERE!! >>>---- >>>Agreed, VERY COOL THING!! >>> >>>-=se=- >>> >>>ps: Greg is plagued too with the same nightmare (err sweet Dream :) >> >>==================================================================== >> >>Ahh! Now it's dreamware. Excellent observation Mr. Ekwall! >> >>No, actually Mr. Watson's nightmare is wondering when it is all going >>to hit the fan. He can't hold all the balls in the air for much >>longer. >> >>I used "vapor" ideas to describe Mr. Watson's work, but Mr. Watson >>prefers the term "vaporware" to frame his agruments. That's ok too. >> >>Oh! Yet another delay in shipment of the "works every time out of the >>box smot" (well with just a little polishing). Uuugh!!! <=== Mr. >>Watson moving the goal posts and changing the rules again in the middle >>of the night. And, the purchasers of the smot kits sheepishly tuck >>their tails in embarrassment and remain silent, afraid of offending Mr. >>Watson by demanding valid data. Truly a sad state of affairs. But, >>they all know who they are and shall live with their inaction. >> >>A very close and pathologic parallel to American politics, these smoter >>& rmoger o/u wannabes. The great unwashed masses KNOW the American >>politician lies and continually moves the goal posts, but with a shrug >>of the shoulders they carry on without the the courage to protest or >>demand accountability. >> >>The whole impass can be very easily solved and Mr. Watson will look >>like a hero to the whole world. Accept Mr. Watson at his word that he >>has created these o/u devices that he has posted run for extented >>periods of time. He has posted his results and they are part of the >>public record. Demand data and accountability, not an animation video, >>but a video of the real thing he has told us he has created. Surely, a >>man with Mr. Watson's ability can produce a one hour video of any of >>his o/u devices that he claims operate in o/u mode. He will be world >>famous beyond compare just releasing a simple video. >> >>Failure to do so, after all the public claims by Mr. Watson, surely >>places him at risk of being cast among the charlatans that give our >>science such an unsavory and abysmal reputation. >> >>RWW >> Mr. Richard Wayne Wall, You make me smile :)... You sound like both of my teenage sons when they turned 16 years of age and "DEMANDED" a Car! I noted the time was right for them (but, was demanding IT making it so??).. they got a bit older, and earned and learned. (I hope I not wrong here in assuming your below the age age of fourty or have teenagers yourself). --------- Have you tried (/built?) the smot 1 yourself? --------- little magnets in a "V" shape with an inclined ball! - "IT WORKS" very interesting effects! --------- Have you tried (building?) the smot 2 yourself? --------- little magnets in an increasing (stacked array) shape! - "IT WORKS" very interesting effects! --- ..etc smotiii,iv, rmod and loops (to everyone of these:) ============== I'm glad I'm not Henry Fords FATHER in the above.. Your RIGHT to ask for your CAR! (smot) NOW!!! by golley your of AGE (assumed).. but Greg, (Father Smot) wants to add windshields, headlights, the best wearing tires to be found ToDate!.. So you can GO,GO,GO. ----- My last words (besides drive carefully and slowly) after they "PAID" for & Earned their own 'cars'.. were, Have You Deserved/Earned It -Now?? Greg is NOT after YOUR money, Nor YOUR demand to "let the world HAVE it NOW!" (or else??)... I want it, you want it, He Wants it! How about support in design (like if I had one (smot), I'd want a KeyLock and a little extra power under the hood..and a radio..etc..) Yes, It ALL MUST BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR. personally, I think Greg is going for an overall solid Frame work here.. (very WISE in experienced scientific circles) -------- (I know the 'Go Slow' is in one ear & out the other) (Drive Safely;) -=se=- (What did you last BUILD for World)? Sorry I missused the word 'nightmare', (my fault), I do each night though lay my head down on my pillow saying YES,YES,YES! (It's THERE!) I've (hands up, not sure about your 'one hand') BUILT EM, SEEN IT and FELT IT! good night to you & yours. (ps further descussions on this line are welcome direct e-mail so we don't clog this list) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 04:09:49 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21214; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:07:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 04:07:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:02:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Fred Epps cc: John Schnurer , vortex Subject: ASCII Re: Fw: Electronic heat engine page 1-2 In-Reply-To: <199710300454.UAA05336 mail1.halcyon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1cDXD2.0.JB5.5Y7Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Fred, Any ASCII... or a site where this is at? John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 05:39:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12707; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:34:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:34:58 -0800 Message-Id: <34587C59.1598DD58 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:23:53 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: One hand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AkMS7.0.T63.1q8Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems that RWW is entertained much with on going posts. And I guess this was his intent. Unfortunately, it is not so difficult to encounter such minds around. This is a simple attack to sincerity. There is no worth by any means, even humour on these po sting. SMOT, this is very interesting gizmo, even I did not obtained roll away from my experiments due by material problem. One can see the unexpected complex interactions between ball and fields, which can not be seen by idealized physical assumptions. Seeing t he nature depends on how you looking to it. SMOT is a good example to help open our minds. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 05:39:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12805; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:35:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:35:59 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:33:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: List on thermodynamics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"40Rh63.0._73.-q8Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eminently emulatable members and superior 'we're not ordinary people' type list members, Is there a list where people know something about thermodynamics? This list is mainly:- 1) CF 2) CF 3) SMOT 4) New Quantum Electrodynamical Multidimensional Thingermejiggery Zero Point Highly Mathematically Conjecturally Un-Experimentally Verificationally Self Abusively Pretensiously List Megabyte Consumingly New Fizziks 5) Population Dynamics of Bitching among Extremely Smart but Over Educated Academics, Engineers and Spirited (maybe correct) talented amateurs, for Bart Simon's thesis. 6) The occasional HF breakeven event I'm looking for that group of people which can best be summed up by W.D.Bauer who believe that 'Gibbs formulation of Thermodynamics is Incompatible with the Planck Version of the Second Law'. I'm interested in the rest, but sometimes, I just ain't got the time, inclination or ability/training to keep up with the high faluting stuff. I still believe in strong theory/approach to guide experiment and stop wasting time. I am not against non-mathematical, serendipitous science - it's just that there is so frigging much of it, usually ill conceived, amateur, skunk works type and not having a chance of review because the good ones think 'they've mastered that level, no need to look there again'. Remi. P.S. netettiquet, 'amateur' is not meant derogatively, we are all amateurs in the face of something new. P.P.S. Could Larry Wharton repost his em. article evolution's didn't snip it last time. That's the approach I like: play, dream, think, show possible holes in theory and go play again. This is so Victorian! P.P.P.S. Getting there, raising money, reading practical papers, locating know-how, wrangling with academics and learning much from them. P.P.P.P.S. no, too corny. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 05:54:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00894; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:51:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 05:51:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3458658A.813776D2 eunet.no> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:46:40 +0100 From: Jorn Erik Ommang Reply-To: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no Organization: Institute for Energy Technology Assessment (IETA) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: soliton X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IQWCp2.0.rD.d39Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear John, It is good to discuss with technical like-minded - but also think along the lines that we will use SOLITON in some ways in our inventions / trade secrets to companies like Statoil so that not too much info or attention is out in the open. Jorn John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo., and Ross T. > > You mentioned "soliton like particle" > > A soliton is NOT a particle! > > To anyone who wants to discuss solitons, let us do it > initially > off line. Big subject... little understanding ... my meat and potato! > > Well, I don't eat meat... have not since I was 13 ... but you > know what I mean. > > Remember the soliton was first noticed before 1900 and the > math > was not put to it till the 60s ... heck it was not even BELIEVED much > for > a couple of decades! > > J -- ____________________________________________________________________ Jorn Erik Ommang, Eng. Energy Technology Specialist IETA INSTITUTE FOR ENERGY TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT (Member of IATAFI, IAEE & PACE) Nordeidev. 39, N-5060 Søreidgrend (Bergen), Norway Phone: 0047 - 55124718, Fax: 0047 - 55226662 E-mail: jorn.erik.ommang eunet.no From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 06:21:18 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03585; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:16:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:16:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710301416.JAA10719 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:29:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Reply-to: chronos enter.net CC: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com>, John Winterflood Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710291425_MC2-2596-8881 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"o2lX4.0.st.6R9Mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 29 Oct 97 at 14:23, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > > From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> > Subject: Corridor Light Speed Demo > I just read about this in a good book: > > H. Collins, T. Pinch, "The Golem," (Cambridge University Press, 1993) > > The M-M experiment was terribly difficult to perform a hundred years ago. I Is this book about the measurement of light speed? > I gather that's where mainstream science left off the aether question: > unresolved, untested, taken for granted. And they say we don't have proof of > cold fusion! At the Vigier II Symposium, Jean-Paul Vigier talked about flaws in the data analysis of M-M experiment, and also about Dayton Miller's experiment. A few years ago, Vigier published a paper on Miller's work; citation is not handy but I can look up if interested. See also: http://turing.sci.yorku.ca/VigierII/MUNERA1.html > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:06:08 +0800 > From: John Winterflood > > There are *many* experiments which prove the round trip travel time > of light to be isotropic but very few which attempt to measure the > *one-way* travel time and most of these are flawed as far as being > able to detect the difference between a Lorentz type aether and true > special relativity. Correct. Very few textbooks mention this distinction between one-way and two-way light velocity. It is hidden in the so-called "epsilon" parameter which Einstein declared *by fiat* to be equal to 1/2, claiming in an oblique way that it could never be measured, so 1/2 was the best choice. Experiment could prove him wrong. Frederico Selleri has published papers on this recently in Foundations of Physics, Nuovo Cimiento, and other mainstream journals. Harold Ives, a top scientist at Bell Labs in the 1950's, did a series of experiments which disagree with M-M's results. Published in Journal of Optical Society of America. See the book "The Ives Papers" by Dean Turner and Richard Hazlett. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 06:46:10 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24116; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:36:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:36:48 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971030083617.ZM4117 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:36:17 -0600 In-Reply-To: Rick Monteverde "Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Details" (Oct 29, 7:54pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT Mk4 Rollaround Details Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"jBTx3.0.gu5.-j9Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 29, 7:54pm, Rick Monteverde wrote: > You might want look into hard, clear, hand mix urethanes before you go for > the $7000 molds. $700 would set you up with a good array of molds for small > production in the hundreds or even few thousands of units. It is my impression that the tolerances and quantities desired would not be ideal for spray metal tooling or silicon rubber tools. Sintered tooling or RIM tooling perhaps, but those don't save you any money, just time. $7000 seems high unless you are building an entire tool. Here are a few suggestions: 1) If the part size permits, consider utilizing a standard mold base frame and paying only for the metal inserts that define your geometry. Any molding house worth their salt should have an inventory of standard or readily available mold frames to do just that. 2) Supply a 3D model of your geometry and processing time and cost can further be reduced by facilitating CNC and EDM machining. 3) Unless you need an abrasive polymer or filler, use QC7 aircraft aluminum instead of P20 tool steel for the inserts and you can bring manufacturing cost down even further. The offer to help still stands...... 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 06:51:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27457; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:48:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:48:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: I'll try this list one more time, question... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vVR632.0.xi6.Av9Mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, (This may seem boring, even old hat for the mathematical technologists as A.Pais put it, but it does lead to a paradox about the second law) A problem in classical thermodynamics involving chemical potentials. Can you prove me wrong? If you want to know my level, the text, Guggenhiem 'Thermodynamics' - about graduate level I find meaningful at this stage. A collection of spherical thin walled, rigid (or near rigid) vesicles whose ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ walls pass water but keep a soluble, hygroscopic substance contained within. /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\ / Hygro(aq) \ <- semipermeable wall passes / \ water (l) and water(v) | | \ / \ / (cool graphics, eh?) \_______________/ The argument is that at equilibrium, the collection will form a suspension of the vesicles separated by a 'free water volume'. .......................................................................... The limiting argument is that, if the vesicles were closed packed, I don't see how with a wall of say 1nm thick that the interstices would not at least contain some water. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ .......................................................................... It is believed that there would be more than this interstial water - a free water volume suspending the vesicles. It works by saying that at equilibrium, the chemical potentials of the water on both sides of the membrane must be equal. This is approx. the same as saying concentration. Once does a simple calculation relating water concentration inside the vesicle, to 'water concentration outside' (Free water V/ Total volume of water: V + water in vesicles) and one gets some scaling factor above the total volume of the vesicles. I had some very respectful discussions with academics - they know their stuff and apparently, by their respect for me, I seem to know mine. However, the discussions always seem to degenerate into 'maybe', 'shrugging shoulders', opinion. This is not the way to proceed. Respectfully your, Silence will be taken as igronance as I have been banging on about this paradox for months, and I'll just go ahead and do it anyway Hank Reardon style. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 07:18:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12694; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:12:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:12:07 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971030091126.ZM4427 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0600 In-Reply-To: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) "Re: MM Experiment" (Oct 29, 8:25pm) References: <199710300221.SAA29149 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MM Experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"U8v5V3.0.G63.2FAMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 29, 8:25pm, Ross Tessien wrote: > Anyway, the vertical version of the MM experiment would show nothing > unusual, IMO, because aether is not flowing into the earth to cause gravity. Sorry, but I thought your postulates point the finger at the inbound phase shifted aether energy resonance on our local standing wave resonance as the origin of gravity. Is this not the proposed perpetuating vehicle of containment of our condensed state? I suppose my confusion comes in my understanding of the relationship of the proposed resonance and aether. I always understood (or misunderstood) the resonance WAS the expression of the radiating aether. From your above statement I would assume your vision is more along the lines of the recently discussed charged barrier technology rather than a fluid dynamic model -> energy transfer through rattling of the medium not flow of the medium. By the way, have you had the opportunity to review yet? Right up your alley. Seems to parallel (or support) many of your hypothesis with regard to the dimensional expression of standing wave resonance in aether. I haven't the opportunity to verify any of the information or sources so far, but on the surface seems plausible (at least from my ignorant perspective). -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 07:20:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13409; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:15:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:15:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:12:31 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Scott Little's double standard Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710301014_MC2-25AD-53E8 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"lkbxs1.0.RH3.HIAMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little thinks that Rich Murray should be commended for his efforts. I say Murray has no credibility, but Scott thinks "he understands the issues at hand perfectly well." Scott has a double standard. Murray's messages are full of gross errors. He confuses 2% with 15%; he claims that Claytor's experiment is easier than electrochemistry; he thinks that a failed recombiner would add to excess heat and he does not even realize it would make the cell explode. If I posted messages with such mistakes in them, Scott Little and a hundred other people would come down on me like a ton of bricks. (I would deserve it!) But when Murray posts message after message with distortions, glaring errors, hasty judgments, obfuscation, and every other brand of nonsense, Little pats him on the head and gives him an A for effort: "at least he takes the time and expends the energy to engage in this work." Good boy! You get it wrong every time, you keep posting the same mistakes even after Miley corrects you, you know nothing about electrochemistry, calorimetry, or mass spectroscopy but you are trying your best so let's be nice and pretend your critiques are worth bothering with. I say they aren't. I say Murray is no better then Dick Blue, Nate Hoffman or any of those other fanatics. How many times does George Miley or Mike Carrell have to show gross errors in these critiques before Murray loses credibility? How can Scott Little claim that Murray "understands the issues" when Murray does not even know what recombination and a closed cell mean? Naturally, over in s.p.f. nobody has ever posted a word challenging any of Murray's assertions, but I would like to see a little more rigor here. Scott Little even had the gall to tell Mike Carrell: You cannot complain...you guys are right on the other side of this coin. You embrace and broadcast all "positive" data that comes your way. The other side of the coin!?! All three experimental papers that I co-authored with Mallove and Tinsley were negative: no excess energy. Our magazine regularly broadcasts negative findings. My reviews of the ICCF conferences feature the bad news front and center. What am accused of now -- ignoring my own articles? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 07:25:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02169; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:15:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:15:30 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:12:43 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Garbage from Dick Blue Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710301014_MC2-25AD-53E9 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tN_4z1.0.jX.HIAMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Again, I would like to ask Rich Murray to stop cross posting garbage from Dick Blue here on Vortex. People who would like to read Blue's statements can go to s.p.f. If Blue wants to, he can come here. If he chooses to come here himself I would not object, and I do not think anyone else would. Here is kind of thing I object to. Blue wrote: Jed Rothwell asserts that the boiling recorded on video tape is proof that the 'effect' is real. That is simply a falsehood. The input power to the cell was sufficient to produce boiling even in a complete absence of any source of excess enthalpy from within the cell. If Blue himself posted that here, I would respond by asking him: In that case, why was there no boiling on the anode? It had practically no bubbles at all. If there was sufficient joule heating in the cell to cause the boiling, given the fact that the anode and cathode were about equal in size and mass, why did the cathode get hot but not the anode? Also, why does this happen with palladium but not with platinum cathodes? Why does the computer data and oscilloscope traces show only one-third enough energy to boil the water? How did these instruments miss the input power? Why did it remain hot for hours after the electrical connections were cut and the instruments showed no current or voltage, when platinum cathodes and non-working palladium cooled down immediately? Dick Blue, of course, would never respond. I have told him that a hundred times, but he always evades the issue. He refuses to engage in any discussion. I am used to that. It does not bother me. The thing is, if he comes here, everyone will see he is evading, so I will win the debate by default. Since he is barking at a distance and Rich Murray is acting as a surrogate, he and Murray can claim that Blue was never challenged by me or anyone else. That is their game, and that is why I wish Murray would stop cluttering up this forum with Blue's nonsense. Blue also claims that Pons and Fleischmann "drove the reaction cell to boil, deliberately chose not to record key operating parameters during the boil off. . ." Here, he does not misunderstand the evidence. This is a lie. It is a deliberate, calculated, often-repeated lie. I do not think it should be allowed here. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 07:52:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07939; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:47:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:47:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:46:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I'll try this list one more time, question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KKDRu2.0.rx1.-lAMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, Might not be in at the terminal tomorrow. Don't take as a snub if I (sorry, we, got to use we when we write) don't respond to anything by next week. And, hey, like, try to dissapate your collective anger mmmaaaannnn, You have a choice, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 08:04:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10381; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:00:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:00:07 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971030155922.0066da94 bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo bahnhof.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:59:22 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gudmund rapp Subject: One hand Resent-Message-ID: <"wKYHP1.0.5Y2.6yAMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Greg! I think you are a great guy!!! I have followed the SMOT story since the beginning and also your other inventions. I am now 74 years of age and have had ample opportunities to assess what people stands for. From the start I got the impression of great honesty, great integrity and great innovative powers on your part and a new and completely different way of sharing ones thinking with other people. This new approach, which I personally think is the only way to succeed i OU work, makes some people very nervous. Please dont get upset when people dont know how to behave. We have a saying in Sweden that would run something like "Empty barrels make the loudest noise." Save your energy for your good work. I for one am very happy to get a SMOT mark 4 (or mark x for that matter) instead of mark 1 at the same price and consider myself very lucky). Very best regards Gudmund Rapp SMOT order #9 PS Anybody interested in *my* experience why we behave in the way we do is kindly requested to visit my webpage below. Gudmund Rapp Phone: +4687178913; +46706820641 Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Email: grappo bahnhof.se 133 32 Saltsjobaden Sweden Web "Self-knowledge": http://www.bahnhof.se/~grappo/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 08:19:37 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12202; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:07:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:07:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:03:45 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Corridor Light Speed Demo Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"EyJcD3.0.a-2.P3BMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Jay Olson writes: I believe that there have been many experiments showing the invariance of the speed of light, down to the accuracy of a few meters per second. Not all of these used the M-M setup, although I do believe it has been replicated more than once. Most modern physics textbooks list several experiments confirming the invariance of the speed of light. Well, in that case you should write to Trevor Pinch at Cornell and set him straight. He is at the Dept. of Science and Technology Studies. He seems like a nice fellow so I expect he would be pleased to hear about these several experiments. I myself know nothing about M-M replications and follow-up experiments, except what I read in the 30 pages of this book devoted to the subject. I can't begin to judge who is right. Collins and Pinch devote another section to cold fusion, which is why I came to read the book. They get the story partly right, and partly wrong, mostly because they leave off around 1989, way too soon. I can't say I trust their judgement 100%. I have questions about these experiments that confirm the invariance of light: 1. As someone already asked, do they measure in one direction only? Aether would speed up light in one direction and slow it down on the way back. 2. Were they performed at high altitude, in wooden buildings or "a glass hut" (what Miller once tried)? There is some evidence that Aether, like air, is carried along by their earth itself. There is other evidence that aether wind cannot penetrate anything that light itself cannot penetrate. This evidence is marginal, it may be only noise. 3. Do the experimental protocols themselves depend upon the invariance of light? For example, the most precise way to measure distance is now thought to be by using light: a meter is defined as the distance light travels in 1/299,792,458 seconds. If you use light to measure the distances along the legs before starting the test, it might defeat the purpose. Of course if the Lorentz contractions really are caused by aether pressure then even a meter stick will grow shorter, and we are back in the arms of St. Albert. 4. Were these experiments repeated four times in one year, when the earth is moving in different directions relative to the sun and the cosmos. This is essential. And while we are asking questions, has anyone tried measuring radio waves or anything else on the spectrum besides visible light? - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 08:45:12 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24101; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:32:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:32:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:32:04 +0100 (MET) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo In-Reply-To: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eCofD1.0.Uu5.lQBMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Although this is not the primary evidence, the secondary evidence for the speed of light being constant no matter what the motion of the observer is extremely strong. The consequence of constant c for all observers are the applicability for Lorentz transformations of reference frames, as embodied in Special Relativity. These transformations are accurate reflections of reality in extreme conditions. For example the LEP accelerator at CERN accelerates electrons to energies of around 150,000 times their rest mass energy. Even at these extreme energies the electrons behave just as the Lorentz transformations say they should. Their velocity is measured to fantastic precision and is just as Einstein says it should be: the speed of light - minus a tiny bit. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 09:18:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25261; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:14:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:08:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Free water or water free In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"b5vvU3.0.SA6.O1CMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Which do you mean? Define free water volume so Ican know what I am talking about. Please. Let us make the walls say 10 microns to 30 microns OK? J On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote: > Vo, > > Might not be in at the terminal tomorrow. Don't take as a snub if I > (sorry, we, got to use we when we write) don't respond to anything by next > week. > > And, hey, like, try to dissapate your collective anger mmmaaaannnn, > You have a choice, > Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 09:27:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01510; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710301714.MAA18692 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Scott Little's double standard Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 13:20:47 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"4f_i82.0.VN.y0CMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little thinks that Rich Murray should be commended for his efforts. I >say Murray has no credibility, but Scott thinks "he understands the issues at >hand perfectly well." Scott has a double standard. Murray's messages are full >of gross errors. He confuses 2% with 15%; he claims that Claytor's experiment >is easier than electrochemistry; he thinks that a failed recombiner would add >to excess heat and he does not even realize it would make the cell >explode. If >I posted messages with such mistakes in them, Scott Little and a hundred >other >people would come down on me like a ton of bricks. (I would deserve it!) But >when Murray posts message after message with distortions, glaring errors, >hasty judgments, obfuscation, and every other brand of nonsense, Little pats >him on the head and gives him an A for effort: "at least he takes the time >and >expends the energy to engage in this work." Good boy! You get it wrong every >time, you keep posting the same mistakes even after Miley corrects you, you >know nothing about electrochemistry, calorimetry, or mass spectroscopy but >you >are trying your best so let's be nice and pretend your critiques are worth >bothering with. I say they aren't. I say Murray is no better then Dick Blue, >Nate Hoffman or any of those other fanatics. How many times does George Miley >or Mike Carrell have to show gross errors in these critiques before Murray >loses credibility? How can Scott Little claim that Murray "understands the >issues" when Murray does not even know what recombination and a closed cell >mean? Bravo, Jed, right on! I agree with this analysis completely. It is interesting to see how so-called "neutrals" like Scott Little, inexorably are drawn to praise the nonsnese from people like Murray. And where does Murray's "wisdom" come from? In one of his trance states he has apparently osmotically absorbed the lunacy of labeling cold fusion "pathological" science. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 10:57:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09543; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:41:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:41:09 -0800 From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971030124009.ZM5812 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:40:08 -0600 In-Reply-To: Remi Cornwall "I'll try this list one more time, question..." (Oct 30, 10:25am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I'll try this list one more time, question... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"gCisD.0._K2.4JDMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 30, 10:25am, Remi Cornwall wrote: > The argument is that at equilibrium, the collection will form a > suspension of the vesicles separated by a 'free water volume'. Surface wetting of at least one molecule could be expected between atomically perfect adjacent container surfaces and atomically pure H2O due to hydrodynamic equalibrium and surface tension across the membrane. Container surface imperfections, however, could cause a pooling of molecules in pockets of least resistance, potentially allowing surface peaks to touch. Add chemical potentials, porous container volumes, and/or gravity and you introduce density issues that are almost certain to compromise a true suspension. The thermodynamic 2nd law paradox is.......? > Silence will be taken as igronance as I have been banging on about this > paradox for months, and I'll just go ahead and do it anyway Hank Reardon > style. Get up on the wrong side of the bed today, eh? More flys caught with honey than vinegar Remi. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 11:10:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18037; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:04:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:04:43 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971030102902.ZM4951 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:29:02 -0600 In-Reply-To: Remi Cornwall "List on thermodynamics" (Oct 30, 7:39am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: List on thermodynamics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"df0y-.0.dP4.teDMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 30, 7:39am, Remi Cornwall wrote: > Is there a list where people know something about > thermodynamics? This list is mainly : Try looking around at : By the way, vortex is what it's contributing members want it to be. Don't expect to lurk an eventually find your topic of particular interest to spontaneously rise up out of the bog. You want to talk thermodynamics, go ahead. Not exactly a new topic as we've covered everything from heat pipes to minto wheels plus a boat-load of setups to monitor temperatures of electrolite. Rather interesting that you managed to miss all that. IMO, everything discussed here is related in some fashion or other. The trick is to find the common denominator. For some it may be CF, but not for all of us. different perspectives = new ideas for old problems Don't just go away. Make a difference instead. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 11:52:39 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25396; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:46:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:46:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710301945.LAA17690 mail1.halcyon.com> From: "Fred Epps" To: "vortex" , "Free Energy" Subject: Fw: DEBUNKING VIRUSES Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:16:45 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sZGmz.0.WC6._FEMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Folks! Martin in S. Africa recently forwarded me a post warning me of an email virus supposedly ravaging his country. He wanted me to post it on the list, but instead I told him that these email viruses were actually mental viruses, and I didn't want to spread the disease :-) Unfortunately I have deleted the posts debunking these types of viruses. Can anyone who has this information please send it to him? Thanks! Fred ---------- > From: kami > To: halcyon.com > Subject: Fwd: DEBUNKING VIRUSES > Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 11:37 AM > > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 11:35:20 PST > From: kami > To: FRED > Subject: DEBUNKING VIRUSES > > HI FRED > Thanks for the e mail , very interesting that the virus story has been > debunked on your side , I would greatly appreciate any further info I > can get on this as this country is practically in hysterics regarding > these viruses right to the point of it being mentioned on T.V. Perhaps > a little official debunking would do it some good , mainly because our > postal and telephone systems are so inefficient people are scared of > the fact that e mail may go that way too. > REGARDS > MARTIN > kami iafrica.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 11:58:02 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26130; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:51:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:51:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710301951.OAA10044 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:04:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Reply-to: chronos enter.net CC: Martin Sevior Priority: normal References: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"eW4Vg.0.9O6.4LEMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 30 Oct 97 at 17:32, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Martin Sevior > > Although this is not the primary > evidence, the secondary evidence for the speed of light being > constant no matter what the motion of the observer is extremely > strong. The consequence of constant c for all observers are the > applicability for Lorentz transformations of reference frames, as > embodied in Special Relativity. Einstein's special relativity is in conflict with quantum theory. One or the other must be wrong or incomplete. Read Dirac's "Directions in Physics" Therefore, an argument that "light speed must be constant because Special Relativity says so" is on thin ice. In addition, there is also the problem that, in science, a theory cannot decide a question of experimental fact. > For example the LEP accelerator at CERN accelerates electrons to > energies of around 150,000 times their rest mass energy. Even at > these extreme energies the electrons behave just as the Lorentz > transformations say they should. Their velocity is measured to > fantastic precision and is just as Einstein says it should be: the > speed of light - minus a tiny bit. The Lorentz transformations can be derived from the electrodynamic theories of Lorentz, Poincare, and several others -- which do not depend upon the 2 postulates of Einstein's SR. Therefore, CERN's data supports these theories just as strongly as they do Einstein's theory. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 12:00:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24608; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:51:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:51:35 -0800 Message-Id: <199710301951.OAA10024 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:04:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Reply-to: chronos enter.net CC: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"YDiej1.0.L06.5LEMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 30 Oct 97 at 11:03, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> > Subject: Corridor Light Speed Demo > I have questions about these experiments that confirm the invariance of light: > > 1. As someone already asked, do they measure in one direction only? Aether > would speed up light in one direction and slow it down on the way back. No. The *one way* velocity of light was never measured, as far as I know. Selleri and others have made proposals for experiments to do this. > 3. Do the experimental protocols themselves depend upon the invariance of > light? Circular logic is a constant danger at every step in the analysis of these experiments. The problem is how to obtain an *absolute* standard of distance (space) or duration (time) when the instruments (yardsticks and clocks) are themselves subject to distortion by the force you want to measure. > For example, the most precise way to measure distance is now > thought to be by using light: a meter is defined as the distance > light travels in 1/299,792,458 seconds. If you use light to measure > the distances along the legs before starting the test, it might > defeat the purpose. Of course if the Lorentz contractions really > are caused by aether pressure then even a meter stick will grow > shorter, and we are back in the arms of St. Albert. Interpretation of the M-M experiment does depend on the *assumption* that one-way light velocity equals two-way (round trip) light velocity. There is no experimental data AFAIK to support this assumption. Einstein declared by fiat that "epsilon = 1/2" and almost everyone after that went to sleep. No experiment is able to discrimimate AFAIK between the Lorentz-Poincare "contraction" hypothesis versus Einstein's Special Relativity hypothesis. In other words, this is not a scientific question, but rather a matter of faith, values, scientific politics, aesthetics, religion, or some factor other than experimental data. Einstein obscured this situation by calling special relativity a "theory of principle." This is a tacit admission, in my opinion, that SR cannot be tested experimentally against competing theories. In short, a *strong test* of special relativity was never done. By "strong test" I mean an experiment that proves the correctness of special relativity and disproves all competing theories (such as Lorentz-Poincare) that yield identical predictions in known situations. > 4. Were these experiments repeated four times in one year, when the earth is > moving in different directions relative to the sun and the cosmos. This is > essential. You should specify experiments "repeated three months apart" not "four times in one year" Jed, be prepared to dig in for a long hard grind if you really want to get to the bottom of the question of "Is light speed constant, and how do we know?" The amount of misinformation on this point in physics apalling! There are (at least) five different velocities associated with wave phenomena, including electromagnetism: - phase velocity - group velocity - energy-transport velocity - pilot wave velocity - signal velocity Read "Relativity Revisited" by Leon Brillouin. You must know which one of these velocities is being considered in order to write correct equations. Some of these velocities are equal to others in special cases (eg, in free space, inside waveguides, etc.) Also you must know whether a *standing wave* (ie, steady-state conditions) or a *propagating wave* (ie, transient conditions) is being considered. The statement "light velocity is constant" fails to mention the *point of reference* with respect to which constancy is claimed. At least five possible points of reference for light are: - source - receiver - 2.3 degK anisotropic background radiation field in space - underlying medium of transmission (ie, "Aether") - absolute space If these points of reference are *moving* with respect to each other, you have additional complications that must be accounted for. The phrase "all observers" is meaningless as a definition of point-of-reference unless an experimental setup is specified explicitly. A good engineering analogy is underwater acoustics (sonar). In sonar, the five above-mentioned velocities can be calculated explicitly for four of the five above-mentioned points of reference. (Obviously the 2.3 K background field is not present.) The sonar equations are messy and nonlinear, but they work. Too many discussions of light velocity ignore these details, or get them hopelessly confused. You must have explicit definitions of velocity and point-of-reference to make any headway with interpreting the experiments of M-M, Michaelson-Gale, Miller, Sagnac, Ives, Silvertooth, Haefele-Keating, and others concerning light speed. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 12:38:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02813; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:26:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:26:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971030142554.006f3438 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:25:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Scott Little's double standard In-Reply-To: <199710301014_MC2-25AD-53E8 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"93dkd.0.kh.irEMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (....damn!...when will I ever learn not to push THAT button....) At 10:12 10/30/97 -0500, Jed raised some good points about my attitude: >The other side of the coin!?! All three experimental papers that I co-authored >with Mallove and Tinsley were negative: no excess energy. Our magazine >regularly broadcasts negative findings. My reviews of the ICCF conferences >feature the bad news front and center. What am accused of now -- ignoring my >own articles? I keep forgetting about the good things you do, Jed. Thanks for reminding me about all this and congratulations on the even-handed reporting. I expect you guys to keep it up. Please drop by next time you're in Texas...or anytime you feel like it. I'd like to show you the EarthTech facility and discuss our program with you. Gene, I didn't really intend to praise Murray...I just wanted to say that he shouldn't be castigated (maybe Dick Blue should be castigated, though). You're invited, too. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 12:38:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03776; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:33:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:33:32 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199710302033.OAA00867 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Garbage from ... In-Reply-To: <199710301014_MC2-25AD-53E9 compuserve.com> from Jed Rothwell at "Oct 30, 97 10:12:43 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:32:59 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eK-ex.0.vw.IyEMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > Again, I would like to ask Rich Murray to stop cross posting garbage from ... I must say that cross-posting pretty much defeats the purpose of selective subscription. So I too would request that people cross-post as little as absolutely necessary. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 13:50:08 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12884; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:22:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:22:50 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Time Travel Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eYwOE3.0.C93.dgFMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jim, > Thank you for clarifying ZTD. I now have two permanent files > with which to refer before asking more questions. >I went to the sci library yesterday. Obtained a copy of _The Physics >of Time Reversal_. Thankfully, before I got too far into the book, the >author admitted that he was not talking about locally reversing time's >arrow. All he was saying was that the equations of physics are true >whether time moves forward or backward. As far as time travel is concerned the objective would be to create a process where the passage of time seemed normal as far as the mental functioning or consciousness of the time traveller were concerned, i.e. for him , time seemed to go by at a normal pace and in the forward direction. However , if he were to "look out the porthole" of his time machine ,he might see things whizzing by in the forward or reverse directions. Inside, however clocks and other gadgets function normally. >I examined a handful of books on em, looking for discussion on >Advanced Potentials; all of them included Retarded Potentials; >only one admitted that Advanced Potentials were treated in >Quantum Electrodynamics! Hmmm... that's interesting. So does that mean there's a lead there in the study of QE ? Who has written about QE? > > I also did a little checking on my bookshelf. Here is a quote from > a recent book on time / entropy: > "Disorder or entropy increases because the energy required to create > order [or, to sustain order] dissipates, not to be recovered...A portion > of each expenditure of energy radiates off into space never to be > recaptured to do work on Earth." I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Too bad you couldn't find the Feynman article . I still have my copy. The title is : Interaction with the Absorber as the mechanism of Radiation by Wheeler and Feynman from Reviews of Modern Physics ,volume 17 number 2 and 3, April-July 1945. There is a most interesting quote just below the header, attributed to Niells Bohr, Schroedinger's tormentor . "We must ,therefore be prepared to find that further advance into this region will require a still more extensive renunciation of the features which we are accustomed to demand of the space time mode of description." Bohr appears to be saying "let's not go there". OK why I disagree with entropy statement . The statement assumes the universe to be some kind of mechanism where energy is just allowed to go whizzing off into nowhere never to be recovered ,used ,reciprocated for , or returned in some other form. This is a violation of the mach principle ,number one , where all things in the universe interact so that it is a closed system or machine designed and maintained by some intelligence . The statement borders on contradicting the laws of energy conservation, which have no known history of failure except in the Peltier cooler (just kidding - it does have a hot side ,right?) The only "out" the statement gives short of that conclusion is "never to be recaptured or do work _ON EARTH_" . Whew! Well ,that means at least Mars or Zeta Reticuli may just by chance wind up as beneficiaries of earth's "unrecoverable losses" of energy. I knew it was them,STEALING OUR ENERGY...how dare they!? Bad martians/zetareticulans! But the statement leaves the door open to the conclusion that energy is somehow "lost". No way. If that statement is supposed to represent the bottom line on "entropy" then I think entropy is bunk. --- This is an example of a most dismal philosophy, in my opinion ! [snip] >"The view one must take of the interaction in this theory, if we are to >represent it in terms of the names 'emitter' and 'absorber', is in terms >of simultaneous emissions of signals from each end of a mutual interaction, >later to be absorbed by the 'other end'. That is, the terms 'later' and >'earlier' are only defined subjectively, dependent on which part of an >interaction one refers to as emitter or absorber. This follows from the >feature of relativity theory that there is no absolute time measure, as >there would be in classical physics, where one might identify a time >sequence with the absolute ordering of 'cause' and 'effect'... Agreed! >"..the present theory..prescribes nothing more than the mutual influence >of the components of a single system..." Sachs, you are brilliant! > "The electromagnetic interaction between emitter and absorber must also be > invariant with respect to interchanging the 'advanced' and the 'retarded' > solutions of the field equations. This implies that the solution of the > field equations must be expressible uniquely as a symmetric sum of retarded > and advanced solutions." (all of the preceeding from p102) Well said! There is a clue here for time travel. Suppose we invent a system that uses an _assymetrical_ function of resonance biased in favor of the advanced or retardeed potentials on our resonating components or anything attached as a conductor thereto? Time seems to "Stand still" for these components in the normal resonant mode in terms of radiation input to and output from their immediate envirnment, i.e. radiation occurring outside their field of interaction is not a factor in the component's response at the resonant frequency. The capacitor only "knows" the interaction with the inductor and not much of anything else. So if either element were to shift inertial frames in favor of the advanced or retarded potentials, the frquency might change from the point of view of an outside measuring device ,such as an oscilloscope, however the elements themselves would still be obeying the laws of physics pertaining to their electrical properties as the components themselves "knew " those properties were from their own inertial reference frames. This frequency shift would not result from physically changing say, the dimensions of the capacitive plates or the length of the inductive wire. What would be changing ? My guess is the inertial reference frame which might be accomplished by spinning the components (say the capacitive plates) in opposite directions, but maintaining the distance between them. Timing this spin with the resonant frequency might be just enough to bias the oscillation in favor of the retarded potential for going forward "faster" in time than normal , or in favor of the "advanced " potential for doing the opposite or going backwards in time. Just a guess. Using a zero crossing gate for time-biasing the potentials one way or the other might work just as well. What we would observe from the outside, besides a frequency change would be a cooling of the components...remember "Back to the Future" when the DeLorean iced up after time travelling? Those movie people get hints from the government about their subject matter I think. > "The elementary interaction approach must, in principle, consider both the > emitting antenna and the absorbing antenna in terms of their mutual > influence. Here, one may not ignore the reaction of the emitter to the > absorber, as is done conventionally...in the high energy limit one may not > ignore this influence...the coupling between an individual radio set (or > a city full of radio sets!) and the radio station transmitter is certainly > sufficiently weak to allow the [use]...of field equations that describe the > uncoupled situation." (p108) Right on, again! >Sachs, Mendel, General Relativity and Matter (1982). If Sachs did not thereafter go on to invent the ZTD signalling system for the government I would be greatly surprised. > Happy Camping! Happy Trials! Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 14:42:16 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22650; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:34:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:34:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971030223328.00679d7c atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:33:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: Garbage from ... Resent-Message-ID: <"cen4P1.0.fX5.NjGMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jed wrote: >> Again, I would like to ask Rich Murray to stop cross posting garbage from ... > >I must say that cross-posting pretty much defeats the purpose of selective >subscription. So I too would request that people cross-post as little >as absolutely necessary. > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - I feel the same way. The problem with Blue is that he is a *chronic* anti-CF poster who refuses to listen to reason. For Murray to keep cross-posting Blue's loud-mouthed know-it-all trash is a disservice to this e-mail community, IMO. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 14:43:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA30252; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:36:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:36:58 -0800 Message-ID: <19971030223610.17920.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [206.150.170.106] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Permanent Magnet Force Alternator Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:36:10 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"VPQUc2.0.bO7.8mGMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Peter, > >Have you tried the RMOG's positional dependent coil shorting method? >If you haven't and decide to implement this, use the photo interruptor >and the circuit I have published. Its much better than the reed relay I haven't tried it yet but I certainly plan to. >idea. > >Have you tried the RMOG's self motoring idea. I makes experimentation >much easier as you don't need another lossy drive motor to contend >with. I plan to try this also. Did you receive my Permanent Magnet Force Alternator Pictures? I'm going to send you the test results also, but I might not be able to get to it to you before next week. Peter Aldo > >-- >Best Regards, > Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 14:50:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00535; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:46:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:46:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3458FFAF.5FA19865 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:44:15 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uc7U72.0.G8.0vGMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What about superluminal solution of Maxwell equations? You never or occasionally take a look to the recent developments on physics. This thread prove that is nobody (within this thread) had read the hep-th/9606171 that I pointed earlier or physics/9710024, physics/9710025, physics/9710027 from the same author. I know these papers content some high mathematics (that I do not understand or difficulties), but even knowing presence of such papers which offers new solutions to physics make a sense I think. There a many superluminal related papers around, they are not related to hypothetical tachyons, or astronomic illusions, but effects experimentally detected or proposed. Superluminal cosmic gamma rays, Nmitz experiment are the issues. Last paper clearly state that superluminal solutions of Maxwell equations invalidate relativity principle and SR. This is a major impact and we don't know how to replace the relativity. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 14:50:51 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24486; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199710302247.OAA16702 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Definition; Re: soliton Resent-Message-ID: <"wLLrw2.0.K-5.kvGMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are many many forms of solitons. A smoke ring is a soliton. They occur in water. They occur using high intensity laser beams in dispersive materials such as transparent plastics. And they can form into internally convergent light bullets. They are described by the KdV equation (I think that is Kortweig and de Vries. See the Light Bullets Home Page on the web. > > Would you at least share your definition of a soliton? Thanks. > > Mitchell Swartz > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 14:52:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24516; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199710302247.OAA16684 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: MM Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"Qr81d1.0.x-5.uvGMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Oct 29, 8:25pm, Ross Tessien wrote: > >> Anyway, the vertical version of the MM experiment would show nothing >> unusual, IMO, because aether is not flowing into the earth to cause gravity. > >Sorry, but I thought your postulates point the finger at the inbound phase >shifted aether energy resonance on our local standing wave resonance as the >origin of gravity. Is this not the proposed perpetuating vehicle of >containment of our condensed state? Gravitation is a **frequency** interference, not a phase interference. Think of it simply as matter particles as being resonances, and so the bulk of a body acts as a *band pass* filter allowing waves of the local spacetime frequency to pass freely, and other frequencies to be filtered out with the effeciency of the matter resonances. But keep in mind there that the filtering I think, is occuring at the Planck scale where the non linear transition back and forth from the aether condensate to the aether vapor phase occurs at the Planck scale frequency (E45 Hz). the fact that the volume of that interaction is way down in a sphere of the Planck length, E-35 m, means that the earth, and our bodies, are virtually crystal clear to transmission of spacetime wave energy at E-35 meters wavelength. So the filtering effeciency for normal matter is really trivial. Even a neutron star is a fairly poor filter, though far better than ordinary matter since you collapsed about E15 x of the volume by collapsing the atoms down to E-15m from E-10 m of atoms. Still, E-35m is far below E-15m, so there is a lot of transparency left for spacetime wave energy. I suppose my confusion comes in my >understanding of the relationship of the proposed resonance and aether. I >always understood (or misunderstood) the resonance WAS the expression of the >radiating aether. From your above statement I would assume your vision is more >along the lines of the recently discussed charged barrier technology rather >than a fluid dynamic model -> energy transfer through rattling of the medium >not flow of the medium. Yes, it is energy transfer via wave energy, not fluid flow, for all normal gravitation. However, fluid flow will also induce a curvature of spacetime. I hate to bring this up because people get confused and think in terms of pressure and objects like the earth. There is no net fluid aether flow into or out of the earth. However, any time you "convert mass to energy", what you are really doing is releasing aether confined in these standing waves, by reconfiguring them into these new standing waves, ie DD > He3 n . The latter two standing waves confine a lesser amount of aether than do the former two standing wave structures. Therefore, that excess aether must be emitted, and naturally that occurs at the sound speed. ERGO, stars are emitting aether, and aether is flowing into black holes as sort of aether condensate sinks. The big bang was a huge event where an entire universe worth of aether condensate in a gigantic black hole breached confinement and boiled away into smaller and smaller droplets. That boiling set up acoustic waves inside the boiling mess, and as the droplets of aether condensate got smaller and smaller, there finally came a time when the only droplets that remained were like a fog, where all of the fog droplets were phase and frequency coupled to one another. They existed in the acoustic nodes set up during that boiling process. you see, those remaining droplets ARE matter, and the acoustic nodes they are trapped in IS spacetime, and the boiling continues today and we call it EXOTHERMY, and it leads to an emission of aether which induces a thrust away from stars, and when that star first ignites that aether exits in jets and accelerates cold atoms and we see those jets and call those stars T-tauri, and the stars later come to a rolling aether boil and we call those just entering the boiling state, Flare Stars, and when our sun increases in activity, additional aether must flow out of the sun and fluidize the particles of the sun to a greater degree, but before all of the particles fluidize, the aether can more easily punch tunnels up through the particles via the paths of least resistance first ie the axis, and then as the flow continues to increase, the aether begins punching tunnels out through lower and lower lattitudes, and we call those tunnels exit locations "sun spots" and we call the bursting forth of huge bubbles of aether "coronal mass ejections", and we call the pattern of the sun spots forming near the poles first and the equator later the "Butterfly pattern" of sun spot formation, and we call the result of the aether flow when it runs into itself midway to the next galaxy and slows down and induces a reverse spacetime curvature and acceleration on the matter toward the source galaxy and resulting anamolous acceleration on matter which we observe "the Dark Matter Problem". ie, if you just track aether flow you can find anamolous GR like accelerations from any part of stellar or galactic evolution you want to pick on. If you think carefully, you will successfully predict the direction of the anticipated anamolous thrust, and with practice you will predict the anamolous behavior. You can do this when stars first ignite, when they extinguish, when black holes breach confinement etc. etc. etc. I could go on with so many examples that I am writing a book so I can quit typing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >By the way, have you had the opportunity to review > yet? Right up your alley. Seems to >parallel (or support) many of your hypothesis with regard to the dimensional >expression of standing wave resonance in aether. I haven't the opportunity to >verify any of the information or sources so far, but on the surface seems >plausible (at least from my ignorant perspective). Haven't had time. I have been researching black hole binary systems and their effects on their host galaxies. When you realize that a black hole does not formn a singularity, but rather a core of aether condensate, at extreme pressure, then you come to realize that such an inertially confined structure will breach confinement if given an opportunity. Since two black holes are both inertially confined, they are not stable near one another and one or the other will breach confinement and shoot a radical jet toward the other. May be the source of GRB's. But more interesting is the fact that each BH contains enough aether to blast its way out of that aether potential well back to deep space. That allows the BH to blast outward and to become a companion galaxy to the original host since the more massive BH will not be the one to breach confinement. If that core blasts outward so fast that it escapes its inertial confinement from aether flowing inward from far away (since that is a rarefaction and cannot learn of things that are FTL, or even close to it until much later). Any way, if that core blasts like a rocket outward it can become exposed and unconfined!! This will lead to the formation of a "White hole", today more commonly known as a quasar. The light we see will be red shifted not because the quasar is speeding through space away from us, but rather because like the big bang, it is boiling at the surface and thrusting brand new space outward toward us past the stars in orbit. So rather than the stars speeding away from us, space is being emitted and expanding toward us past the stars. The red shift effect is the same. But keep in mind very carefully that gravitation as described in GR is due to wave interference due to a frequency of oscillation mismatch. The flow phenomena also does the same thing in that it curves spacetime. However, this is a new phenomena not anticipated by GR. The error in QM and GR is in the supposition that mass is not conserved. That notion is incorrect. Mass is conserved, but it becomes a part of the ocean of aether we call "empty" space. ie, space itself is massive because "mass" is a measure of how much aether is involved in this standing wave or that. And spacetime is an acoustic structure in the ocean of aether we call a universe. So in addition to Mass induced spacetime curvature, which is a nodal curvature phenomena, you also have a flow induced spacetime curvature which currently is not accounted for. But to induce the latter, you either need to have an exo or endo thermic reaction taking place. An atom bomb and EMP is a perfect example. That shock wave is due to aether emission. Well, hope that helps distinguish between the two spacetime curvature effects. And BTW, the above does mean that we have used the incorrect mass for our sun, because we "weighed" the sun using our theories, and our theories are not accounting for this buoyancy force in opposition to the downward thrust of gravitation. And it doesn't matter if you think of gravity as a push downward from filtering out wave energy, or as a spacetime curvature phenomena due to the aether density gradient that results. Both are the same phenomena. I haven't yet tried to apply this in any logical detail to Mercuries orbit, but may do so after I figure out all the different manners that BH's can breach. Check out the latest two posts I made on "Aether Tectonics" in the sci physics new_theories newsgroup. They discuss BH behaviors. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 14:53:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00735; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:19 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:47:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199710302247.OAA16699 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: soliton Resent-Message-ID: <"gaJGn1.0.NB.qvGMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I appreciate this kind of subject. Please post to vortex or if you >really don't want to, please include me in the private discussion. >Thanks, > >JAY OLSON > >> Dear Vo., and Ross T. >> >> You mentioned "soliton like particle" >> >> >> A soliton is NOT a particle! If you emit a smoke ring vortex, and your sensors cannot make out any of the details of that smoke ring, but they can detect when a smoke ring has hit your phosphour screen or not, then to you, the smoke ring IS a "particle". The fact that the vorticity reaches down to the Planck scale at E-35m leads to our thinking of this soliton, as a particle. The notion "particle" simply means "packet". The comet fragments of Shoemaker Levy 9 were "particles" to our probing eyes watching Jupiter get pummeled. If we didn't know they were made of rocks and atoms, then that is all we could call them. We cannot probe structure that is finer than the atoms we use to probe with. ERGO, they are "Particles", but I am telling you that they are really "solitons". And, I can show you the spacetime curvature proof that they are when you look to the sun, stars, galaxies etc. and find that the mass is conserved and aether is flowing out due to the soliton to soliton interactions that result in new sub atomic geometries that confine a reduced amount of aether in the wave structures. If you still don't get it, go do a web search for the "Light Bullets Home Page" and read up on the KdV equation for solitons and how these light bullet solitons act like particles and bounce off of one another, repulse, attract, couple, fuse, etc just like our "particles"! See what I mean???? :-) Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 15:22:09 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06709; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:11:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:11:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:14:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo In-Reply-To: <3458FFAF.5FA19865 verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pvrMQ.0.Ze1.dGHMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Hamdi Ucar wrote: > What about superluminal solution of Maxwell equations? What about them? > > You Meaning whom? To whom are these comments addressed? > never or occasionally take a look to the recent developments on physics. > This thread prove that is nobody (within this thread) had read > the hep-th/9606171 that I pointed earlier or physics/9710024, > physics/9710025, physics/9710027 from the same author. You're correct I probably haven't but maybe you should take a look at some of my other postings before you throw me in the same lot as the stick-in -the-muds (an English expression meaning the obstinately opinionated). > > I know these papers content some high mathematics (that I do not > understand or difficulties), but even knowing presence of such papers > which offers new solutions to physics make a sense I think. > > There a many superluminal related papers around, they are not related to > hypothetical tachyons, or astronomic illusions, but effects > experimentally detected or proposed. Superluminal cosmic gamma rays, > Nmitz experiment are the issues. > > Last paper clearly state that superluminal solutions of Maxwell equations > invalidate relativity principle and SR. This is a major impact and we don't > know how to replace the relativity. > > Regards, Yes, regards to you too, Hamdi Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 15:47:35 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18293; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:41:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:41:25 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:43:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Priority: normal References: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8B24D12F89 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"rvgTS2.0.lT4.aiHMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jed, > Although this is not the primary evidence, the secondary evidence for > the speed of light being constant no matter what the motion of the observer > is extremely strong. The consequence of constant c for all observers are the > applicability for Lorentz transformations of reference frames, as embodied > in Special Relativity. These transformations are accurate reflections of > reality in extreme conditions. For example the LEP accelerator at CERN > accelerates electrons to energies of around 150,000 times their rest mass > energy. Even at these extreme energies the electrons behave just as the Lorentz > transformations say they should. Their velocity is measured to fantastic > precision and is just as Einstein says it should be: the speed of light - minus > a tiny bit. > > Martin Sevior Yes, and let us not forget that time dialation is a direct consequence of the invariance of the speed of light, and time dialation has been shown to be "real" in many, many experiments. Muons created in the upper atmosphere from cosmic radiation would not be able to reach the earth if it were not for relativistic time dialation, yet they are observed in abundance (relatively speaking (^8 ) at sea level. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 16:41:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12190; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:30:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:30:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:33:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8BF6860E2E hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"X4eVu3.0.H-2.dQIMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I have questions about these experiments that confirm the invariance of light: > > 1. As someone already asked, do they measure in one direction only? Aether > would speed up light in one direction and slow it down on the way back. No, the MM experiment uses two seperate beams of light, one parallel to the "aether flow" and the other perpendicular to the "aether flow." When the whole setup is rotated, so that the perp. path is now the parallel path, one would expect to see changes in the interferance patterns, due to the altered velocity of light along these rotated paths. However, the patterns do NOT change, so we come to the conclusion that light travels at constant velocity regardless of the referance frame. > 2. Were they performed at high altitude, in wooden buildings or "a glass hut" > (what Miller once tried)? There is some evidence that Aether, like air, is > carried along by their earth itself. There is other evidence that aether wind > cannot penetrate anything that light itself cannot penetrate. This evidence is > marginal, it may be only noise. I don't know, however, given the right frequency light can penetrate just about anything... > 3. Do the experimental protocols themselves depend upon the invariance of > light? For example, the most precise way to measure distance is now thought to > be by using light: a meter is defined as the distance light travels in > 1/299,792,458 seconds. If you use light to measure the distances along the > legs before starting the test, it might defeat the purpose. Of course if the > Lorentz contractions really are caused by aether pressure then even a meter > stick will grow shorter, and we are back in the arms of St. Albert. The length of the legs really doesn't matter, provided it is sufficiently large to detect a change in the velocity of the light. > 4. Were these experiments repeated four times in one year, when the earth is > moving in different directions relative to the sun and the cosmos. This is > essential. I believe they were, but don't quote me on that one. > And while we are asking questions, has anyone tried measuring radio waves or > anything else on the spectrum besides visible light? I believe one of the "other experiments confirming c invariance" used X-rays, but unfortionately "my" book that describes this experiment in detail is stuck in a public library back in my home town and I'm 7 hours drive from there. :( I'm sure I could hold a gun to one of my prof.'s head and make him fork over some referances if you really want them, however. > - Jed > JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 16:57:06 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14808; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:54:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:54:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:57:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: MM Experiment Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710302247.OAA16684 Au.oro.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8C5E7564DF hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"aC8mB2.0.Id3._mIMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ross! >From your posts, it is obvious that you believe that you have an "aether theory" that does not contradict SR, yet makes many predictions that could possibly be proved/disproved by experimentation. I have read and re-read your posts, but it is very difficult for me to grasp the essence of what your theory really is. Could you possilby list the basic postulates of your theory in an ordered fashion, listing, for example 1. aether exists and has such and such properties 2. gravity can be explained through equation such and such (or whatever) 3. etc. The more general the better, and the more mathematical the better (provided the math isn't TOO complex) Then could you list a special case that you believe supports your theory? I realize this may take some time, but it would greatly help those of us who are interested. One fundamental question I have is this. By aether, do you mean a preferred referance frame? Thanks, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 17:22:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00396; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:12:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:12:56 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34593086.1273 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:12:38 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scott Little's double standard References: <199710301014_MC2-25AD-53E8 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3cgi51.0.s5.M2JMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > Scott Little even had the gall to tell Mike Carrell: > > You embrace and broadcast all "positive" data > > All three experimental papers that I co-authored > with Mallove and Tinsley were negative: no excess energy. Our magazine > regularly broadcasts negative findings. Hmmm....I'm not sure about the authorship details, but I thought that your and Genes experiments with the Griggs device were all positive. Authorship or not you were certainly "broadcasting" that impression---now I'm confused: are all your own experiments negative (so you can join the club I and Scott are members of :-)? -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 17:59:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10700; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:50:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:50:20 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:49:04 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971031015239250.AAA186 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"jTU7j1.0.3d2.RbJMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A comment about light speed and aether, which figure centrally in discussions of fundamental physics. I have had occasion to dig into authors who challenge the Einstein world view. I'm not on firm enough ground to debate the issues here. What I can say is that these authors weave a detailed, apparently self-consistent story, which explain both the null result of the famous Michelson-Morely experiment but go on to cite other careful experiments which show aether drift. One interesting item: the ring-laser gyro. two laser beams circulate in opposite directions around a series of mirrors. The apparatus, when set in motion, shows fringe shifts, and can be used for inertial navigation. If there is no aether, then what, please, is going on? I can point to authors: Harold Aspden, Peter/Neal Graneau, and Phipps. Be prepared for careful reading, none of these authors are glib. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 18:09:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14551; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:00:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:00:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34593BAA.8AE23A75 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:30:10 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, List Server Freenrg Subject: Re: Permanent Magnet Force Alternator References: <19971030223610.17920.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D7FHl3.0._Y3.BlJMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter Aldo wrote: > > > >Hi Peter, > > > >Have you tried the RMOG's positional dependent coil shorting method? > >If you haven't and decide to implement this, use the photo interruptor > >and the circuit I have published. Its much better than the reed relay > > I haven't tried it yet but I certainly plan to. > >idea. > > > >Have you tried the RMOG's self motoring idea. I makes experimentation > >much easier as you don't need another lossy drive motor to contend > >with. > > I plan to try this also. > Did you receive my Permanent Magnet Force Alternator Pictures? I'm going > to send you the test results also, but I might not be able to get to it > to you before next week. > > Peter Aldo HI Peter, Yes, I did get the photos. Thanks. Look forward to the rest of your data. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 18:34:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20951; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:27:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:27:36 -0800 Message-Id: <34593330.11FF07B9 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:24:00 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IRBmO.0.G75.N8KMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > What about superluminal solution of Maxwell equations? > > What about them? I was intended that existence of superluminal electromagnetic waves open a new chapter on relativity/aether discussions. Measuring the constant light speed is not conclusive to prove the correctness of the relativity or the disprove the aether hypothesis, or vice versa if an future MM experiment will sign an anisotropy on the propagation of the light. > > > > You > > Meaning whom? To whom are these comments addressed? > > > never or occasionally take a look to the recent developments on physics. > > This thread prove that is nobody (within this thread) had read > > the hep-th/9606171 that I pointed earlier or physics/9710024, > > physics/9710025, physics/9710027 from the same author. > > You're correct I probably haven't but maybe you should take a look at some > of my other postings before you throw me in the same lot as the stick-in > -the-muds (an English expression meaning the obstinately opinionated). > My posting was not directed to anybody personally. I critiqued general state of people who does not acknowledge the richness of the current physics and developments and rely on historical issues. I apologize that my posting is badly timed and addressed to the people sending posting to this thread. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 18:56:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26695; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:52:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:52:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199710310251.VAA21148 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:03:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Time Travel Reply-to: chronos enter.net CC: Jim Ostrowski Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"hTMt93.0.vW6.EVKMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 30 Oct 97 at 13:25, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Jim Ostrowski > Subject: Time Travel [snip of interesting comments on Wheeler-Feynmann absorber theory] > >Sachs, Mendel, General Relativity and Matter (1982). > > If Sachs did not thereafter go on to invent the ZTD signalling system > for the government I would be greatly surprised. Speaking of Mendel Sachs, see: "Dialogues on Modern Physics" by Mendel Sachs (SUNY, Buffalo) World Scientific, Autumn 1997 ISBN 981-02-3191-1 http://www.wspc.com.sg "In this book, important conceptual developments on the two major revolutions of modern physics -- the quantum and relativity theories -- are presented in a nonmathematical dialectical form of dialogue. " "The implications of conflicting philosophical attitudes of these revolutions in physics and applications to topics in cosmology/astrophysics are emphasized. It is argued that for any progress in out understanding of 21st century physics, it will be necessary to resolve these 20th century conflicts." Mendel Sachs is acutely aware of the weak points in the *foundations* of current theories -- specifically the conflicts between relativity and quantum theory. This book sounds like a good starting point for tracing the problems back to their roots. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 19:43:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05966; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:39:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:39:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199710310339.WAA01995 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:50:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19971031015239250.AAA186 default> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"ZvubD1.0.5T1.hBLMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 30 Oct 97 at 19:49, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Reply-to: > From: "Mike Carrell" > > I can point to authors: Harold Aspden, Peter/Neal Graneau, and Phipps. Be > prepared for careful reading, none of these authors are glib. Excellent. The neo-Hertzian electrodynamic theory of Thomas Phipps in his book "Heretical Verities" is an example of a theory that reproduces the experimental predictions of Einstein relativity without using the "constant lightspeed" postulate or prohibitions against superluminal speeds. An addition to your list, Mike, would be the late Petr Beckmann, E.E. prof. at Univ. Colorado, founder of Galilean Electrodynamics Journal, and author of the book "Einstein Plus Two." Years ago, someone wrote an inflammatory critique against Einstein's special relativity titled "Hundert Authoren Gegen Einstein" ("One Hundred Authors Against Einstein"). When he head about this, Einstein said "One would be enough." Meaning of course, that one good counter-example from experiment would be enough to overthrow a theory. I'm not sure if that one counter-example is solidly in hand yet. But the level of experimental activity challenging the relativistic electrodynamics taught in Einstein's name is rising. What IS in hand, is a collection of alternatives to relativity theory, which pass the same experimental tests. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 20:49:13 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19191; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:43:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:43:31 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Garbage from ... Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:39:37 +0000 Message-ID: <19971031043935.AAA18142 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"6zcwV3.0.dh4.n7MMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:33 PM 10/30/97 +0000, you wrote: >>Jed wrote: >>> Again, I would like to ask Rich Murray to stop cross posting garbage from ... >> >>I must say that cross-posting pretty much defeats the purpose of selective >>subscription. So I too would request that people cross-post as little >>as absolutely necessary. >> >>-- >> - John Logajan Kurt Johmann: >I feel the same way. > Ed Wall: So do I. I see Murray and Blue as individuals who found a way to feel benevolent and aloof over what they see as fools who believe in nonsense. If their primary interest were in the science, they would not make so many errors. One cannot perceive what one has not already decided may exist and these two have decided it can't exist (so far as I can see). Reasons they persist are probably purely psychological. It is hard enough to suspend self-doubting that keeps me from understanding more without their relentless diatribes, yet I do wish to keep my mind open to sincere criticism based on the proper precepts. Those precepts are humility and good faith efforts at understanding before reserved criticism, or even questioning, for which I admire most of the contributors of this forum. What this is about is too important to allow getting tripped up in personality issues. I see nothing wrong with cutting Greg Watson all the slack he needs. A number of individuals have built similar devices that reportedly yield interesting effects. If nothing else, it sounds like fun and may be a lot more. I don't think his investors thought they were buying treasury bonds. I say we must do what we can to clarify the scientific issues to increase the general understanding before the seeds of suspicion make this list like s.p.f., while keeping in mind that we are prone toward normal human irrationality. Speaking strictly for myself, I would appreciate a bit less cryptic exchanges when delving into scientific issues. Obfuscation is in surplus. It doesn't mean the author is smart. If you are not willing to risk "wasting your time" by investigating what "expert opinion" says cannot be true, perhaps you should look elsewhere. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Oct 30 23:43:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08698; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:39:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:39:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:38:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199710310738.XAA32634 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: MM Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"Va35f1.0.l72.LiOMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Ross! > >>From your posts, it is obvious that you believe that you have an >"aether theory" that does not contradict SR, yet makes many >predictions that could possibly be proved/disproved by >experimentation. I have read and re-read your posts, but it is very >difficult for me to grasp the essence of what your theory really is. >Could you possilby list the basic postulates of your theory in an >ordered fashion, listing, for example > >1. aether exists and has such and such properties I have done this numerous times, but here goes, late at night if I have a bunch of typos; 1) The universe is an ocean of aether. There is nothing that is not composed of aether in motion. All things are observations of the different manners in which aether waves can manifest, period. 2) Aether is massive. 3) Aether is rigid, but has compressive qualities only, ie no attraction properties and thus no tensile capabilities. There exist in nature, no attractive forces. 4) Ergo, all apparent attractions are due to one form or another of energy (aka aether in motion) slamming into a structure of aether to accelerate it toward another structure of aether. thus, things like magnets, gravitating objects, charged particles, nucleons, quarks etc. which we think are being attracted, are really being pushed together. 5) What we call spacetime is a structure of acoustic nodes, vibrating, in the aether. It is like a chess board taken into 3 + 1 D, such that you have a bunch of white and black cubes, oscillating in pressure (or density as you prefer to think). As all of the white manifolds expand together, all of the black nodes contract together, and vice versa. So you have the entire universe permeated by this structure of acoustic energy. It is a vestige of the big bang. 6) Particles are soliton structures vibrating, or oscillating, in and composed of, aether. They are driven by the spacetime acoustic oscillations. 7) Spacetime's manifold of acoustics can be "curved" in either of two manners. first, if there is an aether density gradient, and second, if there is a flow of aether through a given region. Density gradients manifest anywhere matter exists because matter is a bunch of standing waves in the aether and so they are more dense than the ambient "empty spacetime". Flow only manifests if you have exothermic (fusion in stars) reactions or endothermic (flow into a BH) reactions taking place. So in our laboratories, GR and SR and QM are all going to work just fine. but in stars, both are going to fail to predict the behaviors because both fail to anticipate the conservation of mass in all interactions. This is because we fail to attribute massiveness to photons and to empty space. >2. gravity can be explained through equation such and such (or >whatever) Gravity is simple under normal circumstances. Just ponder how a piece of driftwood will be thrust toward shore due to waves lapping up on its side such that the natural frequency of lapping of the waves does not match the bobbing frequency of the log. If it did, then the waves would pass through with no interaction. But when the waves do not match the bobbing frequency, then they interfere and are filtered to some extent. That thrusts the log toward shore. Two boats are thrust together for the same reason. the spacetime curvature due to aether flow is more complicated, but not much. Flow leads to spacetime curvature in the direction of flow. For stars and galaxies, that direction is away from the source until you approach the middle ground to the next comparable source. So mid way between stars, galaxies, clusters of galaxies, etc., we find we have the dark matter problem becuase GR does not account for that curvature effect. But in our laboratories, we will observe no difference. As for mathematics, consider the geometry of a spherical standing wave. There is a fourth power amplification in energy density with increasing radius. And you cannot have any old radius standing wave. You must select integer increments of the Planck scale. Thus, muon is double the diameter and thus intensity of electron, and tauon is triple. So, accounting for the 4th power energy density amplification due to convergence of the acoustic wave energy, and the 3rd power energy density magnitude due to volume of a larger sized standing wave, we find that; Mass muon = k * mass electron (R/r_m)^7 = k * (2)^7 Mass tauon = k * mass electron (R_t/r)7 = k * (3)^7 these are close approximations and k is 0.62 thus, 38 percent of the mass of both of these "particles", ie standing waves, exists in the innermost Planck scale core in the form of aether condensate. That condensate is the last vestige of the big bang boiling of a super massive bh core of liquid aether condensate, a remnant of a previous era when a huge universe flowed into the interior of a bh. I listed a chain of observable effects in a previous post beginning with stellar ignition and ending with dark matter. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 00:38:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15998; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:35:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:35:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com, tessien@oro.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 00:38:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: soliton Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199710310713.XAA31053 Au.oro.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <940E364DAC hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"XLdxR.0.sv3.MXPMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Greetings Jay; > > QM works just fine for a theory that accounts for the probabilistic > behaviors of certain sorts of solitons in certain situations. The problem > is, it does not account for the interactions of those standing waves with > frequency shifted energy, and thus cannot predict GR. And, it does not > account for the conservation of aether, aka mass, and so it cannot predict > the outflow of aether from stars, and the consequent spacetime curvature due > to the fusion reactions in the cores of stars. > > Thus, despite the value of the theory, it is intrinsically incorrect. And > it thus fails to account for the ways in which the real universe behaves in > all circumstances. Ergo, it should be re-vamped to account for reality. > > Any theory that fails to account for behaviors that occur in our universe, > is not a fundamental one. Engineers use approximations as tools for getting > work done. Physicists are supposed to figure out what is really happening, > no matter how hard that is. QM and GR both fail that test, and both fail to > describe the ways in which stars, galaxies, etc. behave. Ergo they need fixing. > > Despite the marvelous predictions! > > Ross Tessien Thanks Ross, I'm beginning to see your way of thinking. This message you sent to me as well as your list of "postulates" on vortex are very interesting. I do have one suggestion and that is that you drop the word "aether." :) It may be just as good as any other word for describing the fabric of spacetime, but most physicists cringe when the word aether is used in a discussion of advancing physics theories. When you mention that matter is conserved in the form of aether, how is this different that saying energy is conserved? And when you say that aether is flowing from the sun, is this not very similar to energy leaving the sun in the form of photons? So the question is -- how is aether different from energy? Is it possible that the only difference is that you are saying that energy in ANY form causes spacetime curvature? Next on the list of questions is energy conservation on the quantum scale. In quantum mechanics delta E delta t is always greater than or equal to h bar over 2. This means that energy is NOT conserved for very short intervals of time. This is a fundemental consequence of quantum mechanics and nobody (well, hardly anybody) questions it as a fact. Quantum tunneling is one thing that depends on this. However, you state that aether is always conserved. Given small time intervals, is this true? What is the analogy to the quantum mechanical interpretation? In your theory, how are particle/antiparticle pairs produced? If aether is the only thing conserved, why all of the particle conservation laws? Does your theory explain conservation of charge? One thing I do like is a seeming "conservation of spacetime curvature" that one gets from conserving aether. Thanks again for the previous posts and if you answer these questions, do try to remember that you are talking about totally different ways of looking and the universe, and you must "break the news" as gently as possible so that it will be easy for us to understand. Thanks, JAY OLSON P.S. -- I definately agree that physicists should search for the "real reason" the universe works as it does and not behave like jack-of-all-trades engineers. Not that engineers are bad!!!! :) Knowing the truth is it's own reward. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 01:31:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00225; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:28:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 01:28:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345A1538.826 itl.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:28:24 -0800 From: nick7 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMOT sunrise? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DpoFR1.0.R3.oIQMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Nick - > > > Whether the SMOT sinks or swims will be a > > pivotal moment for OU. > > You sure you need that much riding on Greg's gizmo? If it does work it > might be due to some conventional reason outside of the > ZPE/boundless-free-energy realm. On the other hand if it doesn't work, does > that necessarily say anything about CF or other technologies being looked > at nowdays? > Hi Rick, My logic went something like this:- If the SMOT "rollsaround", then Greg has been reporting things he has actually seen. If he has been reporting actuality then his RMOD, RMOG, PMOD etc are also likely to have performed as he has told us. Therefore there is a way of extracting work out of permanent magnets which doesn't depend on "weakening" those magnets. If this way exists, and it can be scaled up to kilowatt levels, then the world's energy supply situation will be revolutionised. I qualified my anticipation by suggesting that I was going to stick my SMOT in a metal Faraday cage - all I can think of is that the SMOT may be picking up E/M energy. It looks to me as if the original aluminium channel SMOT could have acted like a point contact (crystal set) device at the moment when the ball left the end of the ramp. The perspex channel SMOT + Faraday cage *should* eliminate this. I think I am right to have "that much riding on Greg's gizmo" I am fed up of waiting for CF et al. Nick Palmer - Jersey FoE From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 02:50:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10200; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:44:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:44:56 -0800 Sender: jack centuryinter.net Message-Id: <3459A656.144BDBA4 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:35:18 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Corridor Light Speed Demo References: <199710301107_MC2-25AC-FD26 compuserve.com> <8B24D12F89@hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3D58FDD05342CA6D7A1B425C" Resent-Message-ID: <"EZWps.0.DV2.dQRMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3D58FDD05342CA6D7A1B425C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jay Olson wrote: Martin Sevior wrote: "Jed, Although this is not the primary evidence, the secondary evidence for the speed of light being constant no matter what the motion of the observer is extremely strong. The consequence of constant c for all observers are the applicability for Lorentz transformations of reference frames, as embodied in Special Relativity. These transformations are accurate reflections of reality .... " Democritus made the following observation about reality: "All that exists are atoms and the void; everything else is speculation." I would paraphrase "... speculation and design equations." I am attaching some further thoughts on design equations and the importance of mechanism, presenting an alternative interpretation of the apparent mass increase of a charged particle moving at a velocity near the speed of light. Jack Smith, http://www.wp.com/tjs11 --------------3D58FDD05342CA6D7A1B425C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="mcsq" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="mcsq" Design equations are such fun; it is fascinating to see what can be "proved" (derived) with them. A good place to start is an equation that correlates the data Galieo obtained rolling balls of different masses down an inclined plane, F/m = g. Perhaps, with a different (more sensitive) experiment, data could have been obtained to justify the position of the Aristotelians. In any case, Galileo's work does not "prove" them wrong. It would be nice if some mechanisn were proposed to justify Galileo's results. Since widely different mechanisms can produce widely different design equations which fit a set of data equally well, a mechanism proves nothing; but it can make things more plausible and comforting. More importantly, a mechanism may suggest further experiments which could produce other useful design equations. Kinetic Energy = (F)(distance) = mgd = m(v^2-v0^2)/2 Assuming v0 to be 0, KE = mv^2/2 Applying a high-velocity correction to m to improve the data fit, m1 = m0/(1-v^2/c^2)^.5 = approximately (binomial expansion) m0(1+v^2/2c^2) = m0 + m0v^2/2c^2 m1-m0 = m = m0v^2/2c^2 mc^2 = m0v^2/2 = KE, a design equation which fits the data. Dr. Paul M. Brown, "An Alternate Interpretation Of Mass-Gain At Near Light Velocities," Infinite Energy, Vol. 3, No. 13 and No. 14, 1997, pages 52-53, proposes that KE = mv^2/2 + q^2v^2k/3r where r = radius of the charged particle, q = the charge, and v = the velocity of the particle. k = 3.336 x 10^-4. m is the gravitational or rest mass of the particle. This design equation also fits the data very well. Dr. Brown writes that a 1 GeV electron has a rest mass of 9.107 x 10^-31 kg and a velocity of 2.9999994 x 10^8 m/sec. KE = mc^2 = 1.294 x 10^-10 Joule. KE = q^2v^2k/3r = 1.364 x 10^-10 Joule. Dr. Brown's equation apparently contributed to the invention of his resonant nuclear generator (US patent # 4,835,433), an apparatus for the direct conversion of radioactive decay energy to electrical energy; so this is a demonstrably useful design equation. As an afterthought on mechanism, Length of right arm = Length of left arm is a design equation which is useful to the manufacturers of shirts and coats; but very few would contend that the length of the left arm causes the right arm to be a certain length. An almost perfect correlation is not the same as a mechanism. Nothing is really "proved" when an equation fits a set of data. --------------3D58FDD05342CA6D7A1B425C-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 04:21:58 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09994; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:15:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:15:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971031071331.006b5ad4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:13:31 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: On "Ninth Miley Critique" Cc: rmforall earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <344EE0A2.1ED1 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ETUrq2.0.4S2.3lSMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:29 AM 10/23/97 -0500, Rich Murray wrote: >Rothwell claims the excess heat is too great to be caused by >recombination of O2 and H2 in the electrolyte, catalyzed by the large 32 >cm2 area of 1,000 closely packed Ni coated 1 mm beads. Such >recombination is well established to have invalidated most claims of >excess heat in nickel-light water cells, as reported by three detailed, >thorough theoretical and experimental studies in 1995-- two abstracts >are at the end of this critique. > This recombination story is not true. If V*I is taken as the power input, the issue of recombination does not influence the calculation, except that failure to recombine will make the observed excess heat (if semiquantitatively corrected by calibration) and lower limit to what was present. Nor is the purported date of first mentioning recombination as an issue correct. =========================================================== >The electrolyte will after some time store up a level of dissolved O2 >and H2. Is it possible that a level will be reached in which suddenly >the cell starts to catalyze recombination with a vengance, generating >excess heat from the stored-up O2 and H2 in the electrolyte? Mr. Murray should work this out. Consider the (low) solubility of oxygen and plug in the numbers. That way, the hypothesis could be tested by at least a theoretic observation (scientific method). Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 04:48:36 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23634; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:39:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:39:38 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: MM Experiment Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:21:02 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971031124242674.AAA127 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"_2lH73.0.Cn5.86TMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross, I have noted your essays on aether theory, but have not attempted to follow your constructs in detail. I have chosen to grapple seriously with Harold Aspden's aether science. I note some similarities between your thinking and his. Have you read his work? He has a website with essays, lectures, tutorials, and abstracts of monographs. There is a cross link from John Logajan's web page. Regards, Mike Carrell (my first name is Ross, by the way) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 04:48:47 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23650; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:39:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:39:40 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Scott Little's double standard Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:37:01 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971031124242674.AAC127 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"vrXbD2.0.Pn5.96TMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, can I come too? I've been a judge at the International Science Fairs for last four years, and the next one will be in Ft. Worth. A couple more points to my recent thread to you. I've spoken supportively concerning your work, in contrast to some of Jed's and Gene's comments. It's hard to get all the pieces in place with email notes. I'm a generalist, a systems engineer proposal writer with a EE foundation. I blaze trails between problem and solution, write proposals, and leave the hard work to others to make an honest man of me. I can understand a number of technical dialects. I note a separation in mind-set between mechanical and electronic and chemical types. The latter rely heavily on mental constructs, since you can't see the wheels go round. There are areas of intersection, where fields overlap, and I have worked there. There are areas of mechanical engineering which rely as deeply on mental constructs as EE and chemistry, e.g. material flow, stress distribution and all the other stuff that needs finite element analysis. AE is right at the fringes of understanding. I don't think anyone has a good handle on what is really going on, including your colleague Hal Puthoff. You can go earnestly through the motions of building a Patterson or Ragland cell and utterly miss some essential point. Even Patterson doesn't get it right all the time. Peter Glueck maintains that the effect is essentially catalytic, and this has truth, but doesn't help much. All that really says is that the effect occurs in regions of strong spatial or temporal gradients where conventional analyses fail because of computational complexities. It doesn't tell you how to manufacture these regions, which can be done in the case of semiconductors. The best that can be done in the AE field at present is to create some robust, compelling demonstration that defies conventional wisdom. Newman has been trying to do this for years, even decades, but somehow doesn't get the words and music right. Greg Watson's SMOT might do it, sitting subversively on the desktop of some physicist late at night when no one else is watching. I don't doubt that Greg's SMOT will do a rollaround for a minute, if that is his claim. The next question will be, why does it stop? The skeptics will be sure there must be some subtle stored energy which is dissipated. They will point to the magnets, that conjectured dissipation of the stored energy is so slight as to be virtually undetectable (like E=mc^2 mass conversion), and therefore nothing really new is happening. Continuous rollarounds for hours, then weeks, then years, then decades, will be demanded. The goalposts will circle the earth several times. After all, the Finsrud device reportedly runs for weeks before a "resetting" is needed. It has been on public display for at least a year or two. Yet there is no uproar in the physics community. Barry's best shot is to note the presence of several strong springs in the structure, which conceivably could be the source of stored energy through some subtle non-obvious coupling. There have been elaborate perpetual motion frauds which did such. Gene and Jed are right about the merit of a compelling commercial presence. Then there may be a focus of collective mental energies on the riddle, and a real breakthrough, but that could still take decades. Barry's up to his armpits in Champion's alchemy, but maintains his critical stance. That he can do this in the face of industrial scale alchemy requires great agility. I'd like to chat with Hal about many things, including his work with Targ on remote viewing. But I don't really have anything constructive to say, and so keep a distance. Regards, Mike From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 05:14:52 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26239; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:07:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 05:07:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971031074223.006b3a38 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:42:23 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Garbage from ... Cc: blue pilot.msu.edu, rmforall@earthlink.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu In-Reply-To: <19971031043935.AAA18142 HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5KP7a.0.qP6.RWTMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:39 AM 10/31/97 +0000, Ed wrote: >>>Jed wrote: >>>> Again, I would like to ask Rich Murray to stop cross posting garbage >from ... >>> >>>I must say that cross-posting pretty much defeats the purpose of selective >>>subscription. So I too would request that people cross-post as little >>>as absolutely necessary. >>> - John Logajan > >Kurt Johmann: >>I feel the same way. >> >Ed Wall: >So do I. I see Murray and Blue as individuals who found a way to feel >benevolent and aloof over what they see as fools who believe in nonsense. >If their primary interest were in the science, they would not make so many >errors. One cannot perceive what one has not already decided may exist and >these two have decided it can't exist (so far as I can see). Reasons they >persist are probably purely psychological. In a partial defense of Murray and Blue, it should be noted that questions and errors are not the important problem. Pathological criticism void of the scientific method, and accompanied by ad hominems from both, appear to be the problem. The solution is the scientific method. The scientific method requires evaluating the hypothesis with the observations. Richard Murray and Dick Blue dont appear to strive to continue that feedback by using the observations to CHANGE their initial hypothesis. First example: Richard Murray suggested a role (previously discussed) of dissolved oxygen (not very soluble) in the electrolyte, with such dissolved oxygen driving a purported recombination reaction. First, in our experience, the recombination occurs at a different location from the excess heat. Second, nonetheless, it is suggested that Murray calculate how much oxygen (and therefore "hidden" potential heat via recombination) could actually exist in solution. Such a calculation is both important and would be part of the scientific method, because it leads to a theoretical observation. But it has not apparently been done. Instead the post has simply been reposted and then re-reposted widely. This is NOT science, IMO, unless the hypothesis is tested via observation. Second example: Dick Blue suggested a need for selection rules (on spf). IMO he is actually correct, and if he separated his ad hominems from his otherwise good physics, he might have better stressed a very good point. As pointed out above, science requires follow through - observation to test the hypothesis. Now, my reading of Dr. Miley's paper indicates that there IS a selection rule at work. We have submitted a paper on this to address the matter, and without discussing the exact issue, the point is that Dick's hypothesis SHOULD have been followed with a new hypothesis BASED upon observations, IF this was science. Instead there has apparently not been integration of the observations, but rather again near-endless resposting with no "value-added" scientific (or other) comment. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 06:51:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12313; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:47:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 06:47:31 -0800 Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971031084640.ZM14068 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:46:40 -0600 In-Reply-To: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) "Re: MM Experiment" (Oct 30, 4:50pm) References: <199710302247.OAA16684 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MM Experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"YnCub3.0.I03.2-UMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 30, 4:50pm, Ross Tessien wrote: > Check out the latest two posts I made on "Aether Tectonics" in the sci > physics new_theories newsgroup. They discuss BH behaviors. Digging for the above turned up this site highlighting a lot of the discussed concepts : No sense giving Ross carpal tunnel syndrom retyping the same posts over and over. 8^) Appreciate your willingness to keep discussing your work. I look forward to reading the book. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 07:08:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16951; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:06:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:06:38 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:02:32 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Rothwell's negative reports Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: BlindCopyReceiver:;;; compuserve.com; Message-ID: <199710311004_MC2-264A-958B compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"zFCpy.0.e84.yFVMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: Hmmm....I'm not sure about the authorship details, but I thought that your and Genes experiments with the Griggs device were all positive. Not all. The first three days were negative, as I noted in the final report. I also noted large errors in the thermometry, which were quickly fixed. Authorship or not you were certainly "broadcasting" that impression---now I'm confused: are all your own experiments negative (so you can join the club I and Scott are members of :-)? Correct. My own experiments have all been negative. They include replications of Takahashi, Potapov and Ragland. I did not participate in the Griggs experiments, I only observed and reported on them. (That is to say, I did not design or operate the machinery or data collection software.) I have observed, investigated in detail, and reported on positive experiments by Griggs, Storms, CETI, Mizuno, Ohmori, Bockris, McKubre, Pons and Fleischmann, and Takahashi's electrochemical and particle beam experiments. I think the particle beam loading work is important but I am not qualified to describe it, so I haven't published much about it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 07:32:50 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21889; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:25:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:25:04 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:23:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: magnetic diode Resent-Message-ID: <"7OSiN1.0.vL5.EXVMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In answer to Tameer Hohnsbein, > >is anyone else trying out the magnetic diode idea of Fred Epps ? >I can't see any effect so far and am wondering if I do something wrong. > I would point out a few things. The PM in the magnetic diode must be strong enough so that the material is near saturation. Then there should be an effect which would come from the magnetic field lines being forced out into the air surrounding the diode. The diode would not just block the field lines but they would be forced outside of the PM in the diode. For an electro magnet this effect should be large as we have Curl H = 4Pi J and integrating around a closed loop we have H ( L + Mu D ) = 4 PI I where L is the length in the magnetic conductor with permeability Mu , D the distance in the air gap around the diode, and I the total current flowing through the closed loop. The expression for H H = 4 PI I/( L + Mu D ) would give a rapid decrease in H with an increase in D for the case of large Mu. Now for a PM the magnetization is already locked in and it and H has little effect. Here we have B = 4Pi (M0 +M) + H where M0 is the permanent magnetization and M is the induced magnetization. For most magnets we have M0 >> M and M0 >> H and the effect of the air gap will be small. The field is given by B = 4Pi M0 to a good approximation. This difference is important and should always be considered in the device design. The magnetic field from a PM will be affected very little by being forced to go through an air gap but the magnetic field from an electromagnet will have a very large effect upon being forced through an air gap, with a large reduction in field strength roughly proportional to the air gap distance. I have seen many designs with the field of a PM being forced through a closed loop and then controlled with some saturation or flux gate effect. The variation in the PM magnetic field through the magnetic conductor will be small and the devices mostly useless. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 07:37:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06790; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:26:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:26:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971031092538.006eb974 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:25:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: open house...not double standard In-Reply-To: <19971031124242674.AAC127 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pYQCb3.0.yf1.XYVMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:37 10/31/97 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote: >Scott, can I come too? I've been a judge at the International Science Fairs >for last four years, and the next one will be in Ft. Worth. You would be most welcome, especially after reading the rest of your latest post. I can relate well to the interdisciplinary problems you mention...I've been caught in a few myself. It could be VERY productive for me to show you exactly what we have built and tried here at EarthTech. >The best that can be done in the AE field at present is to create some >robust, compelling demonstration that defies conventional wisdom. Bingo! That's what we hoped the Ragland triode would be, no? BTW, I still haven't given up totally on that. I've got the calorimeter system pretty well perfected (although it continues to drift annoyingly) and I intend to make a few cathodes of my own and hopefully get a cathode from Ed Storms or Chip Ransom someday. I look forward to meeting you Mike. If any other Vortex members would like to visit EarthTech and see our laboratory and our experimental program, please don't hesitate to contact me. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 08:20:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29461; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:12:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:12:05 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Re: Austin City Limits Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:09:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce617$6a130940$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"UTgge3.0.9C7.KDWMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Looks like Open House at Scott's Lab in Austin is coming up. I remember that Chris Tinsley once quipped, "I can't figure out why they would want to name the Capitol of Texas after a car." He was also a bit puzzled over having some "fern." Or was it ferners? :-) With enough support Scott might be running "The Little Lab That Could". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 09:40:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11587; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:26:12 -0800 Message-ID: <345A06BF.2CC6 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:26:39 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Four possible calorimeter artifacts] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"_wxAx.0.tq2.oIXMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from FNAL.FNAL.Gov (SYSTEM fnal.fnal.gov [131.225.110.17]) by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28167 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:50:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from Droege.fnal.gov ("port 1036" droege.fnal.gov) by FNAL.FNAL.GOV (PMDF V5.0-8 #3998) id <01IPF0LS9KIC000084 FNAL.FNAL.GOV> for rmforall earthlink.net; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:50:16 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:50:16 -0600 Date-warning: Date header was inserted by FNAL.FNAL.GOV From: Tom Droege Subject: Re: Four possible calorimeter artifacts X-Sender: droege poptart.fnal.gov To: rmforall earthlink.net Message-id: <1.5.4.16.19971030114958.2cef8f4c poptart.fnal.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Read the papers by McKubre in the 1st and 2nd cold fusion conference proceedings. They list a lot of the problems in doing flow calorimetry. Many much more sublte than the ones you list below. For example, one uses several thermisters. But there may be stratification in the temperature of the flowing liquid. Which thermister is the correct one? How do you combine flow rate and temperature from now many thermisters to measure the actual delta t in the flowing liquid. I built several true delta t measuring devices made from two aluminum blocks and a thermoelectric device. I provided one to Jed Rothwell, and another to the guy in Minnisota (can't think of the name). These devices were the equivalent to the mean of 256 thermocouples measuring the delta t between the incoming and outgoing fluid. Note that a differential device is much better than two temperature devices. If you use two separate temparature devices, then they have to track perfectly over temperature or else you will get a delta t measurement that is dependant on temperature. A very easy error to give a positive result. As the temperature goes up there can be a + or a - tracking error. If it it + then just an increase in temperature will give a positive result. Of course none of the positive result reporters worry about such things. Tom Droege At 12:29 AM 10/30/97 -0600, you wrote: >October 30, 1997 > >Dear all, > >I'm still bemused that I made the glaring error of seeing the >Arata-Zhang cell as a flowing electrolyte experiment-- perhaps I have >CETIphalitis, electrolyte flowing on the brain, from doing too many >Miley Critiques? > >Decades ago, when a team dug out a Pharoah's tomb in Egypt, they found a >durable flask with the name of the Pharaoh on it. They eagerly pried it >open. An unmistakable vile odor filled the tomb-- the first found >Pharoahic phartifact. > >The search for possible artifacts in cold fusion experiments, when >attempted, is not an attack on cold fusion, or, if ever successful, a >shaming rebuke to the researchers affected. The shared exploration of >possible artifacts is vital in any program that seeks to open up new >territory. Finding and sharing the paths that don't work helps us all >eventually focus efficiently on what does work. The natural process of >a research team is to focus single-mindedly on its chosen path. >Naturally, an emotional investment develops that makes for an overly >defensive posture to possible criticism. Yet, for one's own good, and >the common good, criticism has to be actively encouraged, supported, >enlisted, sought out, and carefully attended to. This requires tact on >all sides, the willingness to abscribe good will to others, and, I >suggest, a rich seasoning of humor. > >This morning, Sondra and I read from "Journey Beyond Words," by Brent >Haskell, and settled into the familiar embrace of palpable silence. >Deep in one corner of my psyche, a stream of comments and images >emerged, persistently stirring the tranquility of mind. I will exorcise >these thoughts by sharing them. They are about four possible artifacts >in calorimetry. > >1. thermister: Simple malfunction? Electrical short causing >intermittent local ohmic heating? Sensitive to temperature, pressure, >chemicals? Electronic glitches? Picking up signals from AC power lines >and local RF? Were these possibilities checked out only before the >experimental runs, during, or after, once or many times? With respect >to the Arata-Zhang cell, when was the control Pt-Pt run done, and for >how long? The experiments ran for over four years. > >2. electrolyte or coolant flow: If the flow happens to be reduced 10% >without being noticed, the result will be a spike or persistent 10% >temperature rise, neh? Bubbles, suds, trapped gas pockets, gunk, >metallic plating, ceramic deposits, loose parts? All can cause >intermittent or persistent blocks of flow, with resulting artifacts of >temperature and power output rises, spikes, and drops. Who knows what >evil lurks deep in heart of opaque flow systems? Only the skeptic >suspects. Only the thorough investigator knows. Also, variation in the >pump due to deposits, bubbles, wear and tear, and electric power changes >has to be considered. A detailed, precise, continuous record of flow is >needed to establish valid claims of excess power in flow systems. > >3. heterogenous flow: Persistent, segregated hot and cold flow streams >within the piping, like cream patterns in stirred coffee, so that a hot >source within the cell can cause a temperture rise in the outlet >thermister, typically mounted on the outside of the pipe, that is more >than the actual average temperature of the flow. A 10-20% spurious rise >could invalidate much cold fusion calorimetry. Since a cooling pipe is >immersed in the warmer electrolyte, wouldn't there be a tendency for >only the outer layer of the flow to be be warmed and to carry this >signal to the outlet thermister? Water is an excellent medium for heat >transport, neh? Precautions have to be taken to definitively ensure >actual thorough mixing before the outlet thermister. A related >possibility is the Ranque-Hilsch tube effect: vortexes become hot on the >outside and cold on the inside. Are vortexes developing in the flow? >Changes in viscosity due to the chemical witch's brew developing >gradually in the flow may also help produce these artifacts. > >4. Mike Carrel asked how could there be electrolyte deposits in the top >of a cell from evaporation, if the system is closed with 100% humidity. >Bubbles popping at the surface would scatter droplets onto the top >surfaces, and gradually deposits would form. Are such observed, rarely >or commonly? If the deposits short out electrical wires, unmeasured >ohmic heating could generate excess energy in the cell. So all possible >electric sources near the system have to be considered, instruments, >pump, heaters, etc. A leak in the system could cause a trail of >electrolyte to connect with a distant electrical source. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 10:19:05 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19423; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:05:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:05:04 -0800 Message-ID: <345A0FD0.4474 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:05:20 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, storms ix.netcom.com, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, rgeorge@hooked.net, ceti msn.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, droege fnal.gov, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu Subject: Blue: calm, informed, useful comments on He artifacts Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"C6nRg1.0.Pl4.EtXMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from pilot004.cl.msu.edu (pilot004.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.104]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14225 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (blue localhost) by pilot004.cl.msu.edu (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id MAA18022; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:16:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199710311716.MAA18022 pilot004.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Rich Murray Further Comments about Arata] To: rmforall earthlink.net Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:16:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A Blue" In-Reply-To: <34580E54.3904 earthlink.net> from "Rich Murray" at Oct 29, 97 10:34:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text/plain Rich, Perhaps I can further clarify some of these points. > > How would this help? Is Rich qualified in vacuum system design? The report > is addressed to peers, who understand vacuum systems. It is not a tutorial. > >From some exposure to vacuum systems in my years dealing with the picture > tube manufacturing process and working at the Sarnoff center, I can say > that vacuum systems are not easy, that there are lots of subtle things > going on, and only a person with considerable relevant experience is > qualified to comment. A full set of drawings of the apparatus and a > mountain of technical manuals would not help Rich one iota. He will have to > live with his unease. > > >I notice in Fig. 13 that a tank of He-4 is directly connected into the > system. > > Very likely to calibrate the mass spectrometer; after all the experiment > will be looking for this gas. > > >So, I conjecture that an amount of He-4 could be adsorbed on the inner > walls and crevices > > of the whole system. I conjecture that after a sample was heated to > > 1300 degrees C, that immediately upon release into the exit pipe to the > > rest of the system, it still might be hot enough to then cause enough > > release of adsorbed He-4 to generate the signal in the QMS. > > The system will operate at reduced pressure. If any 4He is absorbed on the > walls of the system, it will be cold. The very small amount of 4He released > from the sample will have no heating effect on the system. The heat would > be applied to the sample itself, not to the whole chamber containing the > sample. A&Z are aware of the necessary precautions. There are lots more > ways things can go wrong than Rich's conjecture. > I would say that the presence of the helium bottle as noted essentially invalidates all claims for detection of helium as "proof" that it was produced by a reaction within the cell. Clean up of the system after exposure to helium at high partial pressure is extremely difficult to predict with certainty. The fact that it's subsequent detection at trace levels is associated with heating to elevated temperatures is certainly suspect. Gettering is also a very trickey process that is difficult to control. The getter can actually belch stuff back into the system. Molecular pumps can also introduce some surprizes into a vacuum system. Particularly with respect to the lightest gases, the turbine can basically maintain a specified ratio of partial pressure between input and output. If the output side has a higher helium partial pressure than one might expect than so will the input (high vacuum) side. Thus as the pump enters the domain where it approaches its operating limit the composition of the residual gas can be expected to move toward a higher fraction of the totally pressure to be due to the lighest gases. Thus you cannot assume that the helium concentration has gone down in proportion to the total pressure. Different brands of molecular pumps have different characteristics in this particular regard. Basically lower turbine speed results in a pump that is less satisfactory for the pumping of light gasses than does higher turbine speed. But if you are worried about residual helium special precautions may be required. I also note that gettering does not remove helium. In fact glass tube evelopes can, over time, leak enough helium into the tube that it ultimately becomes "gassy" and fails. > > from rushing in. The usual material is stainless steel for the blades. > In my experience the blades were more commonly aluminum alloy. > You may have made some errors in you Miley critiques, but it is still clear that Miley made some errors that he has been unwilling or unable to address. Those are the errors that should be under discussion here, but your critics would rather attack you. You just aren't that important (g)! > > > > > Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 10:51:46 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24915; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:34:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:34:37 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:34:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199710311834.KAA26000 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: soliton Resent-Message-ID: <"05Gqu1.0.C56.xIYMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I'm beginning to see your way of thinking. This message you sent to >me as well as your list of "postulates" on vortex are very >interesting. I do have one suggestion and that is that you drop the >word "aether." :) It may be just as good as any other word for >describing the fabric of spacetime, but most physicists cringe when >the word aether is used in a discussion of advancing physics >theories. To cause them psychological pain is part of the requirement to coming to grasp what I am talking about and studying. Without the notion of aether, as you will see below, there is no manner of understanding what I am saying. And if you said that you were conserving "energy" then that would be incorrect in light of what I am saying. ..... > When you mention that matter is conserved in the form of aether, >how is this different that saying energy is conserved? And when you >say that aether is flowing from the sun, is this not very similar to >energy leaving the sun in the form of photons? So the question is -- >how is aether different from energy? Is it possible that the only >difference is that you are saying that energy in ANY form causes >spacetime curvature? No. The notion is radically different, but you are so used to thinking in todays manners that you cannot even grasp the difference. The reason is becuase you are accustomed to using imprecise terms for energy and mass, and so your thinking has mixed up what this is and that is. This is a result of thinking that mass and energy are equivalent, which notion is absolutely incorrect. What is energy? Well, we understand KE really well. Put some mass in motion and let it slam into something and you can see the result of an object having KE. What is PE? Well, it is a condition where IF you allow that something to escape its confines, then it will gain in motion, and thus be able to transmit its KE. What I am going to say is that KE and PE are two different forms of one energy mechanism, KE. In other words, if you have a car parked on the side of the road, but it has a flywheel spinning inside at 70,000 rpm, then does the car system have PE or KE? It all depends on if you are going to inspect the details inside of the car, or if you are going to inspect the exterior of the car as a system. >From the exterior, we think the car has PE because we notice that it can under certain circumstances (a driver gets in) manifest that PE as motion. >From the interior, we plainly see that the car has KE in the form of relative motion of the flywheel relative to the frame of the car. So, does a deuteron have PE or KE? Well, again that depends on whether you are going to climb into the interior of its soliton standing wave structure, or if you are going to be a chemist from the outside and say "I have a deuteron particle in there", and then the physicist says, "Yeah, and it has mass and mass is equivalent to Energy". thus, when you react that deuteron with another one, no one is surprised at the resulting He3 and n having an excess of momentum, and ergo KE, because they knew that the thing had "energy" bottled up inside. But look at the imprecision closely; In todays thinking, after that reaction, all that you have is the KE of the He3 and the n to track. That is it. The mass is supposed to have been transformed to almighty "energy", and disappeared. Now look at my system using solitons. You began with two soliton vortices with the deuteron structure (each proton and neutron being composed of 9 muon resonances BTW at 2 each of 4 phase angles 0,90,180,270, and the proton with one excess at 0 degrees, positive phase angle and the neutron with one excess muon at either 90 or 270 degrees, neutral phase angles). So, when you re-arrange the nucleons, what you wind up with is a new structure called, He3 and n, and we find that they are moving really fast. And we find that the KE they now have is equal to mc^2 times the depletion in the amount of aether confined inside, which we track as our notion, "mass". but if they are solitons, how is it that some of the aether is missing, or disappeared? How is it that the two newly formed standing waves were accelerated? The answer is simple, the aether was emitted out of the solitonic vortex at the only velocity possible, c. And it was emitted out of the only direction possible, the line joining the two separating wave structures because along that line, the wave emissions from each opposing soliton destructively interferes with the wave structure of the other. So, there is an excess of aether emission along the line joining the two solitons, and the emission of this soliton smacks into that soliton, and the emission from that soliton smacks into this soliton. So it works a bit like a Pelton wheel in mining where you get a double boost out of the KE of the emission. So both particles are accelerated by double the emitted KE and you wind up with the result that the final energy is KE = (mc^2/2)*2 = mc^2 Now, notice that there ought to be some small ineffeciency in the emission of aether toward one another as the emission spreads out into a cone and as the two solitons gain in separation relative velocity and the interaction becomes less effecient. Thus, we would expect that unless the interaction was perfect, that there ought to be some small amount of apparrent loss in total energy when you are finished, and naturally there is, and we call it a neutrino. ************************************ But now really pay attention here. Notice that in this model, all I have is aether in motion. The solitons are an organized wave structure of aether in motion in one manner. But the emission of aether is a completely separate and distinct bunch of aether that was set into motion via emission from the wave structure. If you are inside a star, and you do that, then either you must pretend that aether just disappears, or that it accumulates inside the star as it is released from inside of standing waves, or you must conclude that it is flowing out of the star. You only have those three choices unless you think it becomes confined into some new form of standing wave soliton structure. OK, so you have four choices. When you think about it, it would make no sense that it could accumulate. That is like saying that mass is not conserved, or that aether is not important to an aether acoustic ocean model. Tracking the aether is paramount. To say the aether disappears magically, is like the QM notions currently in vogue, and that is just absurd if one is working with soliton structures. If aether could magically appear and disappear, then the whole set of fundamentals would be worthless. That leaves just new solitons, or it leaves aether emission. Now, notice in the isotopic table that the amount of aether emitted per nucleon is not the same across the periodic table. The mass per nucleon is variable. This poses a real problem for some new soliton formation as it would need to have a variable mass. The least complex solition to the problem of aether emission, is that it simply becomes a part of the background ambient ocean of aether. But in that case, then you must track its outflow and find evidence of that outflow in GR like phenomena. But I have listed for you dozens of times, all of the evidence that is manifest ranging from new born stars, to our suns acoustic behaviors, to dying stars, to dark matter etc. So, when you read the above carefully, you will realize that you have the substance of the ocean we call a universe being emitted in the cores of stars during fusion reactions. And it is absolutely not the same thing to suppose that the "aether" IS "energy", that is nonesense. Aether in motion possesses the ability to transmit Action. And the ABILITY TO INDUCE ACTION, IS, ENERGY. The Huge difference between my notions and the current notions is restoring that distinction between "stuff" namely aether, and the ability to transmit action, which is a measure of the intensity of the motion of the stuff. OK, here is another example to show you the difference. You have a car. It has a full tank of gas. But you are an alien who doesn't understand that there is gasolene making the car go, or that there is a gas tank. So, you weigh the car. Then, you operate this car and find that it generates and releases energy in the form of motion and work. Then, you weigh the car when you are finished and you find that it no longer has as much mass as it did before when you began. So, now you suppose that the energy released is proportional to the mass that is missing from your car system (since you don't know that the gas went out the tailpipe). >From that, you have two choices; You can either say that the missing mass is "equivalent" to the energy produced, or you can say that the missing mass was emitted. But you didn't hear any clanks of metal hitting the pavement and don't understand the way the motor works, so you think that the emission of any of the car is absurd and you err by assuming that the mass is not a conservative property, and that it was equivalent to and converted to, energy. > Next on the list of questions is energy conservation on the >quantum scale. In quantum mechanics delta E delta t is always >greater than or equal to h bar over 2. This means that energy is NOT >conserved for very short intervals of time. This is a fundemental >consequence of quantum mechanics and nobody (well, hardly anybody) >questions it as a fact. Quantum tunneling is one thing that depends >on this. However, you state that aether is always conserved. Given >small time intervals, is this true? What is the analogy to the >quantum mechanical interpretation? Of course it must be true on all time intervals. Aether is conserved is rule of nature numero uno. If you think that aether is not conserved, go read rule number one again. Absolutely, got it! :-) Now, as for "Quantum Tunneling" and "Uncertainty" this and that, pay attention. The ocean of aether is an acoustic structure. Spacetime is an acoustic structure. Solitons which we call particles are acoustic structures. Therefore, it should come as no surprise that if you look at the motions of smaller and smaller solitonic structures that the amplitude of the spacetime acosutic motions, relative to the structures you are considering, is becoming larger. Spacetime turbulence is becoming important. This is so simple it is pathetic. You wouldn't be surprised if you put smaller and smaller dust grains under a microscope slide suspended in water to find that as the grains of dust become smaller they also begin to bounce around magically would you? That is simple Brownian motion. Our only confusion is due to the fact that we think of "Spacetime" as a "Metric", rather than as an acoustic structure. The former is a mathematical, ideal creation. The latter is a turbulent, fluid mechanical, complicated structure. The former assumption will require you to accept that particles are in and unto themselves, unpredictable and that they have the brilliance and intellegence to know precisely how many photons ought to strike the screen over there, vs how many ought to strike the screen over here, and they even remember where their bretheren before them and their bretheren after them have and will strike, so that they keep QM in good stead. for the latter notion, it is plain that if we use the notion of a metric for spacetime when it is really a fluid mechanical turbulent acoutsic structure, that we will have statistical errors in our predictions in the paths and velocities of particles through the metric. But if we model spacetime as a fluid mechanical structure in phase and frequency lock with solitons, then we expect the trajectories to be turbulent to a degree. And QM has wonderfully discovered that degree. Understand I do not think that either QM or GR are a waste of time, they are fantastic theories. However, they are both based on no substantive phenomenology, and as such, they are both unable to account for the way our real universe works in certain situations. Those situations are for the most part, out in stars and so we have not yet figured out what is going on or why. > In your theory, how are particle/antiparticle pairs produced? >If aether is the only thing conserved, why all of the particle >conservation laws? This question is difficult to explain in words because you do not understand and have not worked with aether, aether condensation due to intense pressure of convergence of acoustic waves, etc etc. And you have not worked with the structure of the spacetime manifold, that I described to you as the black and white structure of acoustic nodes. But basically, particles and anti particles are solitons with the reverse geometry of wave motions. A simple example would be two tornados with opposite rotations, CW and CCW. If they met, they would annihilate one anothers angular momentum. "particles" like electron and positron are simply centered on phase opposed oscillations of spacetimes manifold, ie I center postrons and positive charge on the white manifold and negative charge and electrons on the black manifold. Thus, as the primary wave energy of the positron is expanding, the same primary wave energy of the electron is compressing. That phase opposition in resonances will annihilate if it gets too close. ANd the reason for forming pairs is because as a wave form of acoustic energy converges on a "point" in spacetime, it will breach and must condense in both the white and black adjacent nodes simultaneously, or else the focusing will just slip out of the black into the white, or out of the white and into the black, and you will fail to form the particle solitons. You must form and annihilate in pairs. Put in less complex terms, you must conserve aether momentum at all phase angles. In essence, that leads to the weak force too. >Does your theory explain conservation of charge? Same thing, conservation of phase angular momentum of aether oscilations of spacetimes manifold. "Charge" is just a measure of the intensity of oscillations at 0 and 180 degree phase angle. Actually, my model requires you conserve 90 and 270 degrees too, which are both neutral phase angles and which we lump into just one set. That is why if you see the octets in QM (I forget the name but could go get the particle physics books, it is the rule of eight, or something like that), there is a doublet in the middle. We have failed to account for the 90 and 270 as being two orientations for neutral charge. Those ought to be raised and lowered in a z direction to discrete positions. >One thing I do like is a seeming "conservation of spacetime >curvature" that one gets from conserving aether. > Thanks again for the previous posts and if you answer these >questions, do try to remember that you are talking about totally >different ways of looking and the universe, and you must "break the >news" as gently as possible so that it will be easy for us to >understand. That is why I am devoting an entire Section of about 30 pages in my book to the title, "A Pictorial Evolution of an Aether Ocean Universe"; with an image on one page, and a very few words on the opposing page describing the big bang, BH formation, Aether emission in stars, etc. This will put it in the language of a grammar school reader so that the evolution of the notions is painfully clear to anyone who looks at and considers the images. That ought to eliminate about 30,000 words, at a thousand a picture ;-) >P.S. -- I definately agree that physicists should search for the >"real reason" the universe works as it does and not behave like >jack-of-all-trades engineers. Not that engineers are bad!!!! :) >Knowing the truth is it's own reward. That is why I am trying to help out, I am that jack of all trades engineer, an ME! I guess QM is just too abhorant to someone trained to smack this into that. When I got back into sub atomic theory studying some cold fusion device approaches, I discovered how to accomplish it and how to think about the universe at the same time. Actually, the theoretical began with a single supposition; There exist in nature, no attractive forces. It made no sense that a fluidic universe could extend any tensile pull, and "fields" are just our sticking our head in the sand and refusing to seek out the geometry and structure involved in the particle accelerations. But once you eliminate the nuclear strong force of attraction, you cannot any longer form protons or nuclei of composite structure. Either there is no such universe, or, you are forced to work with soliton structures that are dynamic. Now, think back to when Einstein discovered GR, what did he do? Well, he put in a cosmological constant because the notion that the universe was not eternal was abhorant to him. Now think of what pain my notions are doing to professional physicists who contemplate them. They are abhorred by the notion that the hallowed "particles" they have so dilligently studied for a century could be in motion and wave structures. They are only supposed to be "wave like". And now for a real vindication twist for the history books, my theory requires in essence, a cosmological constant! You must add a term to GR that integrates the energy release, and thus the aether emission, inside of a given volume of space where you want to figure out what the spacetime curvature will be. You must track the aether flow and its effect on the expansion of the universe itself. And with that, you come to realize that relative to the balance of the universe, mc^2 becomes reduced because the rest of the universe is given mc^2/2 of KE directed away from fusion reactions, due to the aether emission. So, the real energy imparted to the two particles relative to the distant universe is only mc^2/2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 11:14:31 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31828; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:01:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:01:50 -0800 Message-ID: <345A1D18.388B earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:02:00 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, claytor_t_n lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, rgeorge@hooked.net, wireless rmii.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, storms ix.netcom.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, droege@fnal.gov, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Re: On "Ninth Miley Critique" References: <3.0.1.32.19971031071331.006b5ad4 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IX9c61.0.Dn7.SiYMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: October 31, 1997 Dear all, Schwarz is quite right-- recombination would lower, not raise, any excess energy in Miley's reports. I apologize for this fundamental mistake. Has anyone measured the amount of recombination in CETI-type cells? I post many ideas, so that they can be discussed widely. I'm not expert enough to evaluate many of them. The possibility of spurious excess energy from recombination of O2 dissolved from a distant source is a good example. Here is a relevant post: Subject: Dissolved Oxygen in Electrolysis Cells Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:17:39 -0700 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:15:36 -0600 From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" To: Vortex Scott mentioned that he got higher (ou?) energies with open H2O-K2CO3-Nickel electrolysis cells. The solubility of O2 in the electrolyte should be about 0.03 cm^3/cm^3 at room temperature and about 0.025 cm^3/cm^3 at 100 deg C. Thats about 6.7E17 O2 molecules/cm^3 of electrolyte. With the H3O+ and K+ ions literally dragging the oxygen to the cathode where it can react with the K or H, it wouldn't be surprising if some "extra heat" came out of the experiments. With the pair of unpaired electrons in the O2 molecule being electrostatically attracted to the "solvated" K+ or H+ ion, even oxygen from the anode reactions could be dragged to the cathode also. Regards, Frederick Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 11:18:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00601; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:10:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:10:24 -0800 Message-ID: <345A1F22.7F67 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:10:42 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Another calorimeter artifact Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"sWWQz1.0.D9.VqYMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: <3458B961.EB9 saclink.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:44:19 -0700 From: Peter Hanely Organization: N6XML Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: Four possible calorimeter artifacts References: <34582C27.1C1B earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.25.57.148 Path: nntp.earthlink.net!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.magicnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!blush.jps.net!208.25.57.148 Rich Murray wrote: > > Subject: Four possible calorimeter artifacts > Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:29:56 -0600 > From: Rich Murray > Organization: Room For All > To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, > wireless rmii.com, > design73 aol.com, storms@ix.netcom.com, > claytor_t_n lanl.gov, > dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, rgeorge@hooked.net, > bhorst loc100.tandem.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, > mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, > jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, > blue pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, > drom vxcern.cern.ch, > droege fnal.gov, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis@wazoo.com, > ine padrak.com, > mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, > mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, shellied@sage.dri.edu, > schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, > zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, sukhanov@srdlan.msu.su, > chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, > tchubb aol.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, > cincygrp ix.netcom.com, > nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, > perkins3 llnl.gov, > biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, reeber@aro-emh1.army.mil, > JNaudin aol.com, > jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu > > October 30, 1997 > > Dear all, > > I'm still bemused that I made the glaring error of seeing the > Arata-Zhang cell as a flowing electrolyte experiment-- perhaps I have > CETIphalitis, electrolyte flowing on the brain, from doing too many > Miley Critiques? > > Decades ago, when a team dug out a Pharoah's tomb in Egypt, they found a > durable flask with the name of the Pharaoh on it. They eagerly pried it > open. An unmistakable vile odor filled the tomb-- the first found > Pharoahic phartifact. > > The search for possible artifacts in cold fusion experiments, when > attempted, is not an attack on cold fusion, or, if ever successful, a > shaming rebuke to the researchers affected. The shared exploration of > possible artifacts is vital in any program that seeks to open up new > territory. Finding and sharing the paths that don't work helps us all > eventually focus efficiently on what does work. The natural process of > a research team is to focus single-mindedly on its chosen path. > Naturally, an emotional investment develops that makes for an overly > defensive posture to possible criticism. Yet, for one's own good, and > the common good, criticism has to be actively encouraged, supported, > enlisted, sought out, and carefully attended to. This requires tact on > all sides, the willingness to abscribe good will to others, and, I > suggest, a rich seasoning of humor. > > This morning, Sondra and I read from "Journey Beyond Words," by Brent > Haskell, and settled into the familiar embrace of palpable silence. > Deep in one corner of my psyche, a stream of comments and images > emerged, persistently stirring the tranquility of mind. I will exorcise > these thoughts by sharing them. They are about four possible artifacts > in calorimetry. > > 1. thermister: Simple malfunction? Electrical short causing > intermittent local ohmic heating? Sensitive to temperature, pressure, > chemicals? Electronic glitches? Picking up signals from AC power lines > and local RF? Were these possibilities checked out only before the > experimental runs, during, or after, once or many times? With respect > to the Arata-Zhang cell, when was the control Pt-Pt run done, and for > how long? The experiments ran for over four years. > > 2. electrolyte or coolant flow: If the flow happens to be reduced 10% > without being noticed, the result will be a spike or persistent 10% > temperature rise, neh? Bubbles, suds, trapped gas pockets, gunk, > metallic plating, ceramic deposits, loose parts? All can cause > intermittent or persistent blocks of flow, with resulting artifacts of > temperature and power output rises, spikes, and drops. Who knows what > evil lurks deep in heart of opaque flow systems? Only the skeptic > suspects. Only the thorough investigator knows. Also, variation in the > pump due to deposits, bubbles, wear and tear, and electric power changes > has to be considered. A detailed, precise, continuous record of flow is > needed to establish valid claims of excess power in flow systems. > > 3. heterogenous flow: Persistent, segregated hot and cold flow streams > within the piping, like cream patterns in stirred coffee, so that a hot > source within the cell can cause a temperture rise in the outlet > thermister, typically mounted on the outside of the pipe, that is more > than the actual average temperature of the flow. A 10-20% spurious rise > could invalidate much cold fusion calorimetry. Since a cooling pipe is > immersed in the warmer electrolyte, wouldn't there be a tendency for > only the outer layer of the flow to be be warmed and to carry this > signal to the outlet thermister? Water is an excellent medium for heat > transport, neh? Precautions have to be taken to definitively ensure > actual thorough mixing before the outlet thermister. A related > possibility is the Ranque-Hilsch tube effect: vortexes become hot on the > outside and cold on the inside. Are vortexes developing in the flow? > Changes in viscosity due to the chemical witch's brew developing > gradually in the flow may also help produce these artifacts. > > 4. Mike Carrel asked how could there be electrolyte deposits in the top > of a cell from evaporation, if the system is closed with 100% humidity. > Bubbles popping at the surface would scatter droplets onto the top > surfaces, and gradually deposits would form. Are such observed, rarely > or commonly? If the deposits short out electrical wires, unmeasured > ohmic heating could generate excess energy in the cell. So all possible > electric sources near the system have to be considered, instruments, > pump, heaters, etc. A leak in the system could cause a trail of > electrolyte to connect with a distant electrical source. 5. power feed. (generic CF cell) When feeding electricity into a system of unknown or variable resistance, care must be taken in the measurement of voltage and current. with dissimular electrodes, electrochemical effects can skew voltage readings. -- ////////////////////////////////// Peter Hanely e-mail : hanelyp gaia.ecs.csus.edu http://gaia.ecs.csus.edu/~hanelyp \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 13:16:34 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19746; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:01:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:01:01 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <345A1D18.388B earthlink.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19971031071331.006b5ad4 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:51:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: On "Ninth Miley Critique" Resent-Message-ID: <"XYzWh3.0.Nq4.BSaMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rich Murray asks: > Has anyone measured the amount of recombination in >CETI-type cells? Yes, my colleagues and I always measured recombination when we ran experiments in CETI-type (Patterson) cells of our own construction last year. It is not a difficult measurement. We found that typically on the order of 10% of the electrolysis gas recombined at typical (for Patterson cells) current density (50-100 mA in ~ 2 cm diameter cell). The recombination percentage is greater at lower current and is less at higher current. In fact, our recombination appeared to be equivalent to a steady current of about 1 or 2 mA/cm^2. Note that the large recombination reported by the Jones paper was for experiments at much lower current densities. The same is true of the Bose work. Also note that Mills' light water electrolytic cells, at least those described in the papers I have read, operate at ~ 1 mA/cm^2, as _prescribed_ by the Hydrocatalysis protocol. At this low current density recombination _is_ a serious issue. Data in the NASA report of their attempted replication of Mills appear to be affected by recombination. Below I repost a message on this subject I posted on vortex-l on 1996 dec 5. There I also offer a hypothesis to explain the apparently constant, low recombination rate. If this hypothesis is correct, then recombination is not an issue at higher current densities. However, experimenters should monitor recombination whenever it might be a possible issue. As I said, it is not difficult to do. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Repost of my message dated 1996 Dec 5: I re-read the NASA report last night. As others on Vortex have already commented, the authors make a point that they did NOT measure electrolysis gas and therefore can not rule out recombination as a possible explanation of the apparent excess heat seen in the 'raw data'. The authors fit a smooth curve through their RAW excess power (Px) points. This curve can be reworked slightly and then approximated as Px = 4.6 V, where V is the cell voltage. Since V did not vary strongly with current, the raw excess power is almost a constant value, independent of both current and voltage. This behavior has been reported previously in Ni-H2O cells. I offer a hypothesis. The number 4.6 in my equation appears as an electric current, but microscopically it can be a reaction rate. (Electrochemists and some plasma physicists quote reaction rates in Amps... 4.6 A = 2.9*10^19 electron transfers per second.) A constant recombination rate is consistent with a rate-limited catalytic surface, in this case one that saturates at about 3*10^19 /s. >From brief discussions I have read in CF papers about the operation of recombiners in closed cells, the presence of a small fortuitous recombination in a cell does not seem unreasonable. When I was running a Patterson cell, I always measured the off gas; recombination was small, but present, on the order of 1 or 2 mA/cm^2. The NASA cell was big and its geometry different, so 4.6 A of recombination might be realistic. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 13:18:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22211; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:13:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:13:09 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <345A1538.826 itl.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:51:10 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: SMOT sunrise? Resent-Message-ID: <"4F1sY1.0.uQ5.ZdaMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nick - > I think I am right to have "that much riding on > Greg's gizmo" > I am fed up of waiting for CF et al. Ok, I see now what you're getting at. > - all I can think of is that the SMOT may be > picking up E/M energy. Don't forget magnetocaloric effects too. The ball may be getting partially magnetized which causes the attraction between it and the magnets to be less than the uphill part under certain conditions during rollout from the field. There's a slight caloric change when this happens which might also reverse itself spontaneously while outside the fields - thereby 'refreshing' the ball for another circuit. But perhaps stray EM helps this demag process too, which would provide a possible mechanism for how the system could get energy from surrounding EM fields. I think eventually a well-working SMOT would have to be run not only shielded from EM, but also very well insulated in order to resolve where the energy is coming from. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 13:58:24 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12193; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:45:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:45:22 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:16:47 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Light pulse experiment request Resent-Message-ID: <"BvqX71.0.M-2.i5bMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts - Would whoever it was who posted the message about the experiment with the polaroid filters and fast pulses please repost it or e-mail me the post if you still have a copy? I thought I had archived it, but I must have put it in the trash folder by accident - can't find it anywhere. I was thinking about the "accumulation of something at instantaneous velocity". Isn't there a way to get this effect without instaneous velocity via the uh, "time reversed phase conjugate waves" - one of Bearden's favorite buzz phrases? If there is a wave component that heads from the source to the target but which travels backwards in time, the target is blocked to this wave by the polarized filter back there in the past (before the time-forward component of the incoming pulse begins to reach the target). Then when the time-forward component reaches the target and slips through the now-open filter but doesn't find it's spooky twin component there to sum with, it doesn't light up the target because all its bits haven't accumulated there properly. You can't get any FTL goodies out of this because if you're at the target end when the time reversed component is arriving, I don't think you can detect it by any means at all until it's time-forward component arrives to bit-mask it for you. You might then see that you *had* indeed detected it as indicated by the now darkened pulse, but it's too late to be FTL. Whether or not any of the above is correct, you know you've been reading this fringe-science stuff on the internet too long when it ALL BEGINS TO MAKE SENSE. Aaaarrrghhhh! Happy Halloween! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 14:04:22 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13915; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:58:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:58:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:46:40 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Hydrogen Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Mhsid3.0.0P3.QHbMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., This is about electrolysis: I posed this question a few times in the past and got partial answers. I am trying to compare apples to apples and realize sometimes you have to make apple sauce and measure sauce. So I ask again: You pass an electrical current through water and the water is made conducting with another material. Q: a] in volts and amps and watt seconds how much electricty makes how much gas. Gas in moles and liters at STP b] if you burn the gas how much energy in btu, btu/hour, joules Q: What part do different additions and-or electrode types, materials make ... ie., salt VS HCl ..... nickle VS copper. John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 14:27:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03108; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:15:21 -0800 Message-ID: <19971031221449.7176.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [208.206.158.67] From: "Ray Conley" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills' experiments Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:14:49 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"bvOs03.0.Tm.uXbMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The pressures cited for the Mill's gas phase cell seem very low (2mmHg). This pressure is probably used because the fraction of atomic hydrogen in a gas increases exponentially as pressure decreases, and the potassium ions must interact with atomic hydrogen for the reaction to occurr. Has anyone estimated optimum pressure that will achieve the maximum reaction rate? If so, what implications does that have for the scalability of the technology? It strikes me that a megawatt reactor would have to be the size of a football field. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 15:21:48 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02586; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:10:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:10:38 -0800 Message-ID: <345A653D.F0B177D4 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 09:39:49 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: RMOG Mk3 Design / PMOD new rod Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t9ZNl1.0.Be.jLcMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, ================= RMOG ==================== I am working on a single disc, twin stator design which will have full magnetic balancing. It will also incorporate "Smart coil shorting". No reed relay or photo interruptor required. Will still be able to "Motor up" to speed. Easier to build than the twin disc Mk2 design. Existing Mk1 builders should be able to modify their units to work as Mk3. Will post the design soon. ======================== PMOD ========================== I have obtained a 2, 9 x 200mm Philips rods, Material 3C80. FCRT bumps are there, but VERY fast and of a lower amplitude. Material looks to have a lower permeability than the Korean "AM Radio" rods I am currently using. Further tests under way. I have reduced the fet's on time to around 22ns. Still need less. Just blew my control circuit. The 74AC74 didn't like running at 12v, 10v was ok. Helped to shave about 5ns off the fet's on time. More later. -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 16:01:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03985; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:56:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:56:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345A57B0.5D24 keelynet.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:12:00 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Info about new motor] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5AB775BC74EF" Resent-Message-ID: <"WIBNL.0.-z.L0dMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5AB775BC74EF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187 --------------5AB775BC74EF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mb05.mail.aol.com (mb05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.54]) by centurion.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04115 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:50:31 -0600 (CST) From: Dactylon1 aol.com Received: (from root localhost) by mb05.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA01290 for jdecker keelynet.com; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:54:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:54:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971031102825_444393309 mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: jdecker keelynet.com Subject: Re: Info about new motor X-UIDL: 480da161df695922201c0e615bc55677 X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 Jerry, thank you for your elaborate info. Look at the Hubble pictures of the colliding galaxies. They show that millions of stars are born in the differential gravitational vortices. My motor doe that in the same manner. It is really simple, however, we waited 4 years after the experiment to get a firm grip on the theoretical background. So, now we feel free to speak about it with scientific certainty. There is always going to be opposition, and I simply ignore it, ot politely put them straight. I am arranging for funding and proliferation. Albert de Vree I invite all that can contribute to form partnerships now. The world awakens to a new reality.... Best Wishes, Albert de Vree, Ph.D.E.E. --------------5AB775BC74EF-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 16:35:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10547; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:30:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:30:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:08:26 -0500 (EST) From: lewis edward X-Sender: lewis3 staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: plasmoids by electrolysis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"NLWjY1.0.fa2.qWdMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Plasmoids produced by electrolysis has been known for decades, > but now this research is covers other stress too. > This was a mistake. Plasmoids by discharge has been studied for decades, but plasmoids by electrolysis is a new topic since I first saw that the voids and marks in Matsumoto's electrode was explainable by the emission of tiny ball lightning phenomena that are identical to the plasmoids reseached previously. Also, Silver and Dash's early article from 1992 or 1993 about electrolysis shows such plasmoid marks on the electrode as did a picture of one of Liaw's electrodes. If people looked with a microscope they might find such marks in other people's cells too. So far, such marks have been found on electrodes from Matsumoto, Silver, Dash, Liaw and Miley, in my opinion. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 17:37:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07587; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:31:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:31:23 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:26:25 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: List on thermodynamics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"x0HQq1.0.Ts1.gPeMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now this I like! On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Remi Cornwall wrote: > 4) New Quantum Electrodynamical Multidimensional Thingermejiggery Zero > Point Highly Mathematically Conjecturally Un-Experimentally > Verificationally Self Abusively Pretensiously List Megabyte Consumingly > New Fizziks From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 17:42:01 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08934; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:39:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:39:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex_L" Subject: Re: Mills' experiments Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:37:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce666$be5622e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"lBiR23.0.QB2.8XeMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday, October 31, 1997 3:21 PM, Ray Conley wrote: > The pressure cited for the Mills gas phase cell > seem very low (2mmHg). > This pressure is probably used because the fraction of > atomic hydrogen in a gas increases exponentially as > pressure decreases, and the potassium ions must > interact with atomic hydrogen for the reaction to occur. > It strikes me that a megawatt reactor would have to be the > size of a football field. Getting to sound more and more like "Hot Fusion", isn't it? :-) If the "hydrinos" are formed from micron-sized "Light Leptons", it would follow that these would be formed a low pressures where the Mean Free Path or molecular spacing is greater. At 2 mmHg (300 to 600 deg K) the M.F.P. is about 0.02-0.04 cm with a collision frequency of 1.2- 2.5E7 collisions/second. This along with the possibility that the potassium is a "catalyst" for LL pair production, indicates that Hot Fusion might get more interesting if there was some potassium vapor and some IR photons in the "Tokamaks". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:02:45 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11782; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:55:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:55:36 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:50:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: water balls (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xLAsG.0.tt2.MmeMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The main thing to make them last is: a] to have clean water b] the set up is run in still air c] if you launch balls from nozzle then the angle has to be sort of glancing. There was an Amateur Scientist article on it in Scientific American... I will try to find which issue. There has not been a lot of research in the area... it is more a curiosity. On hot surfaces the water ball sort of evaporates at point contact and rolls around. I have seen it with liquid nitrogen on lab bench ... which is a little like water on hot skillet.. You can get a few going, and then if you are careful you can get them to join and make a bigger ball. It occurs to me a gently spinning water pan.... to make concave surface... would allow them to want to tend to go to center... but maybe not, depending on speed... be fun to try. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:02:53 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11853; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:55:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:55:48 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:55:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711010155.TAA23433 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: One hand To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"GcISC2.0.4v2.YmeMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: 10/31/97 Mr. Rapp wrote in part: snip >I for one am very happy to get a SMOT mark 4 (or mark x for that >matter) instead of mark 1 at the same price and consider myself very >lucky). >Very best regards >Gudmund Rapp >SMOT order #9 Mr. Rapp, Thank you for your well written post. With due respect for your age, I understand your wish that Mr. Watson's Smot achieve and demontrate o/u characteristics. After all the "O" in smot, as defined by Mr. Watson, stands for overunity. It's also my desire and OTHERS that overunity be achieved and I sincerely believe that it will. But, not in this particular venue. I am also happy for you that you believe you will receive some kind of o/u smot device in the future from Mr. Watson. Unfortunately, if past performance is any indicator, it is extremely doubtful that you will ever receive a rollaround o/u smot from Mr. Watson. Not in the remainder of your days or even another 74 years. Despite what Mr. Watson claims, he has not demonstrated either smot or rmog o/u. And, even though he proclaims to the world by the internet that he has demonstrated o/u devices, he carefully hides from view any fully functional models of any sort. Instead he carefully presents controlled information on the internet that embellishes his fictitious claims. He claims by the internet that his devices have operated for extended periods of time in the o/u mode, but no one has ever seen or reported on one of his devices. He claims full public disclosure, but tightly controls any released information. Now comes Mr. Watson claiming, again by the internet of course, that he has created a fail proof production model of his smot. He has reported they work as promised with only a little polishing. Most crucial of all is that he promised a date certain for shipping these produced smot devices. Just prior to the shipping date of these production model smots, Mr. Watson reneged on his promise to ship. Various excuses were proferred as many times before. It's of interest that Mr Watson now claims that it will cost over $7000 Aus to obtain injection molds to produce the very same smots he already claimed were built, tested and a date guaranteed for shipping. Even though others have posted injection molding would cost one tenth as much and others have freely offered their services, Mr Watson has slyly injected a heavy cost factor that he will bear in producing these new and injection molded smots. His phantomware charade continues. So, Mr. Rapp, while I fully respect your right to your opinions and your right to freely express your thoughts, I disagree with your conclusions. I invite you to produce any evidence you may have of smot or rmog over unity behavior. This of course includes submission of a video despite the fact that other smot supporters are now warning of fraudulent videos. Sincerely, RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:11:21 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25431; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:54:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:54:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:49:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: WHAT is ... plasmoid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9gBqx2.0.FD6.YleMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What exactly is a plasmoid? J On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, lewis edward wrote: > > > > Plasmoids produced by electrolysis has been known for decades, > > but now this research is covers other stress too. > > > This was a mistake. Plasmoids by discharge has been studied for decades, > but plasmoids by electrolysis is a new topic since I first saw that the > voids and marks in Matsumoto's electrode was explainable by the emission > of tiny ball lightning phenomena that are identical to the plasmoids > reseached previously. > > Also, Silver and Dash's early article from 1992 or 1993 about electrolysis > shows such plasmoid marks on the electrode as did a picture of one of > Liaw's electrodes. If people looked with a microscope they might find > such marks in other people's cells too. > > So far, such marks have been found on electrodes from Matsumoto, Silver, > Dash, Liaw and Miley, in my opinion. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:14:27 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15547; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:13:06 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste me525.ecg.csg.mot.com ) From: "John E. Steck" Message-Id: <971031165322.ZM18588 me525.ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:53:21 -0600 In-Reply-To: John Schnurer "Hydrogen" (Oct 31, 4:03pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (4.0.1 13Jan97) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"41n7a1.0.ro3.n0fMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Oct 31, 4:03pm, John Schnurer wrote: > a] in volts and amps and watt seconds how much electricty makes > how much gas. Gas in moles and liters at STP > b] if you burn the gas how much energy in btu, btu/hour, joules I have a couple of good books at home that should have some experimentally determined numbers. I don't recall your original request to be honest. I'll do some digging over the weekend. Perhaps someone will be able to answer before then? If you don't hear from me by Tuesday, feel free send a reminder! Have a good weekend! -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:18:43 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16381; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:17:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:17:07 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , "John Schnurer" Subject: Re: water balls (fwd) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:15:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce66c$14981960$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"amCoZ1.0.t_3.Y4fMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: vortex ; John Schnurer Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 6:57 PM Subject: water balls (fwd) The Leidenfrost Effect, John. When the waterball-surface interface gets up to the right heat flux and delta T there is a film of steam built up that gives the effect, also known as "Film Boiling". Very dramatic if you plunge a red to white hot poker into a bucket of water. Regards, Frederick > > > The main thing to make them last is: > > a] to have clean water > b] the set up is run in still air > c] if you launch balls from nozzle then the angle has to be sort >of glancing. > > There was an Amateur Scientist article on it in Scientific >American... I will try to find which issue. > > > There has not been a lot of research in the area... it is more a >curiosity. > > On hot surfaces the water ball sort of evaporates at point >contact and rolls around. I have seen it with liquid nitrogen on lab >bench ... which is a little like water on hot skillet.. > > You can get a few going, and then if you are careful you can get >them to join and make a bigger ball. > > It occurs to me a gently spinning water pan.... to make concave >surface... would allow them to want to tend to go to center... but maybe >not, depending on speed... be fun to try. > > > J > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:31:38 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00186; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:20:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:20:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "John Schnurer" Subject: Re: WHAT is ... plasmoid Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:19:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce66c$9a21e3e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"feWcB.0.p2._7fMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: John Schnurer Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 7:00 PM Subject: WHAT is ... plasmoid Sound a lot like the "Microcavitation Plasmas" in Sonoluminescence, don't they? Funny how consistent Nature is, in spite of "Chaos Theories". :-) Regards, Frederick > > > What exactly is a plasmoid? > > > J > >On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, lewis edward wrote: > >> > >> > Plasmoids produced by electrolysis has been known for decades, >> > but now this research is covers other stress too. >> > >> This was a mistake. Plasmoids by discharge has been studied for decades, >> but plasmoids by electrolysis is a new topic since I first saw that the >> voids and marks in Matsumoto's electrode was explainable by the emission >> of tiny ball lightning phenomena that are identical to the plasmoids >> reseached previously. >> >> Also, Silver and Dash's early article from 1992 or 1993 about electrolysis >> shows such plasmoid marks on the electrode as did a picture of one of >> Liaw's electrodes. If people looked with a microscope they might find >> such marks in other people's cells too. >> >> So far, such marks have been found on electrodes from Matsumoto, Silver, >> Dash, Liaw and Miley, in my opinion. >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:39:30 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01772; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:36:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:36:38 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711010155.TAA23433 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:33:22 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: One hand Resent-Message-ID: <"6N_D73.0.bR.qMfMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Richard Wayne Wall wrote: > Even though others have posted injection molding > would cost one tenth as much [...] Er, slight correction here since it was me who posted the 1/10th figure of $700 to Greg's $7000. My figure refers to the open mold hand poured or low velocity centrifuge casting with which I am personally familiar, not injection molding. And it's true as Greg said that such low cost mold systems, especially elastic silicone rubber mold systems, can't approach the dimensional accuracy of injection molding. I also don't think the $7000 Australian cost Greg mentioned is bad at all for injection mold tooling. John Steck is probably qualified to confirm or correct me on these points. I agree with you in part here. Although I can't join you at all in saying that any of this constitutes evidence of fraud or even the unintentional fraud of self-delusion, I do wish Greg would have sent out at least *one* well working SMOT even capable of just a simple rollaway, let alone a rollaround version. I find it amazing as you do, after all this time, that not one hand built prototype has made it out to some of the qualified people on this list like Mallove, Merriman, Little, or others. However there are those reports by list members who claim duplication, and I don't think that they can be discarded out of hand the way you have done. Remember that some perfectly conventional reasons have been discussed which might be able to account for the apparently anomalous behavior claimed for the SMOT. I have lots of patience for Greg and the others here who are working on OU projects, and am willing to watch this thing play itself out. Others here have taken the same stance. That shouldn't be confused with gullibility. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:47:04 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21458; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:43:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:43:18 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:39:57 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: water balls (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"t9a8g.0.AF5.4TfMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - I see water balls all the time on the surface of the sea. They're just electrostatically confined droplets, but they dance around on the surface as if they had no friction. Some days they do seem to reach a larger size than usual, but that's just subjective. They do seek valleys in the water's surface, they can be made to gather up in a row and surf little swells you make with your hand under the surface, and they can also be gathered into small clusters in the center a vortex. You've inspired me to take a strong magnet out with me next time I go bodysurfing to see if I can steer them around by swishing the magnet under them. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 18:55:07 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18701; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:32:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:32:58 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: One hand Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:31:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01bce66e$4ac448e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rCxtz1.0.3a4.OJfMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wayne Wall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, October 31, 1997 6:58 PM Subject: Re: One hand Heck, Richard. Ever since man put up a sail on a boat he's been getting "O-U", for his effort. :-) Let the "boys" explore this and have a bit of science fun. Regards, Frederick >10/31/97 > >Mr. Rapp wrote in part: > >snip > >>I for one am very happy to get a SMOT mark 4 (or mark x for that >>matter) instead of mark 1 at the same price and consider myself very >>lucky). >>Very best regards >>Gudmund Rapp >>SMOT order #9 > >Mr. Rapp, > >Thank you for your well written post. > >With due respect for your age, I understand your wish that Mr. Watson's >Smot achieve and demontrate o/u characteristics. After all the "O" in >smot, as defined by Mr. Watson, stands for overunity. It's also my >desire and OTHERS that overunity be achieved and I sincerely believe >that it will. But, not in this particular venue. > >I am also happy for you that you believe you will receive some kind of >o/u smot device in the future from Mr. Watson. > >Unfortunately, if past performance is any indicator, it is extremely >doubtful that you will ever receive a rollaround o/u smot from Mr. >Watson. Not in the remainder of your days or even another 74 years. > >Despite what Mr. Watson claims, he has not demonstrated either smot or >rmog o/u. And, even though he proclaims to the world by the internet >that he has demonstrated o/u devices, he carefully hides from view any >fully functional models of any sort. Instead he carefully presents >controlled information on the internet that embellishes his fictitious >claims. He claims by the internet that his devices have operated for >extended periods of time in the o/u mode, but no one has ever seen or >reported on one of his devices. He claims full public disclosure, but >tightly controls any released information. > >Now comes Mr. Watson claiming, again by the internet of course, that he >has created a fail proof production model of his smot. He has reported >they work as promised with only a little polishing. Most crucial of >all is that he promised a date certain for shipping these produced smot >devices. Just prior to the shipping date of these production model >smots, Mr. Watson reneged on his promise to ship. Various excuses were >proferred as many times before. > >It's of interest that Mr Watson now claims that it will cost over $7000 >Aus to obtain injection molds to produce the very same smots he already >claimed were built, tested and a date guaranteed for shipping. Even >though others have posted injection molding would cost one tenth as >much and others have freely offered their services, Mr Watson has slyly >injected a heavy cost factor that he will bear in producing these new >and injection molded smots. > >His phantomware charade continues. > >So, Mr. Rapp, while I fully respect your right to your opinions and >your right to freely express your thoughts, I disagree with your >conclusions. I invite you to produce any evidence you may have of smot >or rmog over unity behavior. This of course includes submission of a >video despite the fact that other smot supporters are now warning of >fraudulent videos. > >Sincerely, > >RWW > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 19:54:28 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14932; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:47:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:47:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345A983C.7D5F earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:47:24 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, rgeorge@hooked.net, wireless rmii.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, storms@ix.netcom.com, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, blue@pilot.msu.edu, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis wazoo.com, bssimon@helix.ucsd.edu, ine@padrak.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, droege@fnal.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, shellied sage.dri.edu, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, perkins3@llnl.gov, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, reeber aro-emh1.army.mil, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov Subject: First Swartz Critique & more artifacts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sqJbp1.0.8f3.-OgMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Halloween, 1997 Dear all, Here I am raising questions re "Consistency of the Biphasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy in Solid-State Anomalous Phenomena With the Quasi-One-Dimensional Model of Isotope Loading Into a Material," Mitchell R. Swartz, JET Energy Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 81135, Wellesley Hills, MA 02181, [mica world.std.com], 617-237-3625, Fusion Technology, 33, Jan., 1997, 63-74. This briefly describes experiments with a closed, static calorimeter with a recombiner for electrolysis from Pt anode to Ni cathode in light water. Reference #8 is Swartz, "The Relationship Between Input Power and Enthalpic Behavior of Nickel Cathodes During Light Water Electrolysis, submitted for publication to Fusion Technology. The field of light water-nickel electrolysis reminds me of the wreckage of Star Fleet, scattered through space, after the Borg attack. Swartz has arrived at the scene like the Enterprise, almost the only survivor. Can he prevail, when so many have failed-- months ago, I jotted with my red ballpoint, "References 1 to 7-- all bad." Unusual care is taken to deal with artifacts. Appropriate for this day, "A light green-colored nickel colloid (which settles over hours) was observed to follow anodic polarization of the nickel electrodes. By allowing anodic polarization to continue for days, this voluminous gel, possibly consistent with nickel oxide and/or nickel hydroxide, was collected. This colloid material is capable of interfering with measurements because it may be able to store electrochemical energy and may contribute additional conduction polarization and other effects..." Green ichor? In my experiment? Kidding aside, this got me to thinking-- or whatever it is that "pathological skeptics" do with their minds-- how many kinds of gels like this are there? Would they clog up the pipes in flow systems, causing weaker pumps to slow down, reducing the flow rate, leading to higher delta T and spurious excess power? In a static system, would they either create by insulation or conduction channels of electric power flow, creating hot spots on the electrodes, and/or hot streams of electrolyte flow that could impinge upon the location of the thermister, creating a local high T signal? The build-up of complex gels, foams, and deposits could over various time scales create artifacts, including thermal stratification layers in the cell, that would vary with current, flow rate, pressure, temperature, and the phase of the moon, for all I know. Foams and bubbles popping at the surface of the electrolyte can spray deposits over the top of the cell, allowing any minute leaks in wires to generate unsuspected current flows, generating ohmic heating and apparent excess energy. What a total drag! It takes fantastic, expensive, and demanding attention to detail to check for all such possible artifacts. Yet only by considering them ahead of time, can experiments be evolved that cleanly and reliably prove anomalous energy, and that can be replicated. This isn't the fault of the true believers or the pathological skeptics. This is science, neh? Yesterday, Tom Droege posted: Read the papers by McKubre in the 1st and 2nd cold fusion conference proceedings. They list a lot of the problems in doing flow calorimetry. Many much more subtle than the ones you list below. For example, one uses several thermisters. But there may be stratification in the temperature of the flowing liquid. Which thermister is the correct one? How do you combine flow rate and temperature from now many thermisters to measure the actual delta t in the flowing liquid. I built several true delta t measuring devices made from two aluminum blocks and a thermoelectric device. I provided one to Jed Rothwell, and another to the guy in Minnisota (can't think of the name). These devices were the equivalent to the mean of 256 thermocouples measuring the delta t between the incoming and outgoing fluid. Note that a differential device is much better than two temperature devices. If you use two separate temparature devices, then they have to track perfectly over temperature or else you will get a delta t measurement that is dependant on temperature. A very easy error to give a positive result. As the temperature goes up there can be a + or a - tracking error. If it it + then just an increase in temperature will give a positive result." Swartz: "Silicate deposition has been hypothesized to create a false positive of excess heat; elementary analysis reveals that it can provide heat but not excess heat under normal conditions, and furthermore, silicates were not present here." The prudent skeptic is merely aroused to wonder what possible contaminants might lurk in the witch's brew that inevitably stews after days and weeks of operation of any electrolysis. The only safeguard would be to repeatedly do exact chemical surveys and inspection of the system's innards, taking nothing for granted. Shouldn't all systems be visually open? How else check for suds, foams, and bubbling? Yet, "The experiments were conducted in the dark when possible. The enthalpy of visible and infrared electromagnetic radiation has not been previously discussed, although it may be significant. Therefore it was excluded from these studies." Thanks, Mitch, I never thought of that! How big can this artifact be? "In the absence of pump use, there was negligible electromagnetic interference (EMI) of any significance relative to the excess power levels under consideration and reported here. This was directly measured...peak available power levels...of 10 micro watt. This power is two order of magnitude below the lowest noise levels here and is of no significance." I suppose acoustic energy also would not be a significant artifact. Swartz's five-ring calorimeter is complex, and only a schematic diagram is given. For evaluation, we need such details as exact dimensions and locations. There is no stirrer in the central electrolysis cell. At the low current densities used, ~2 X 10exp-5 to 10exp-2 A/cm2, would there be enough bubbling to prevent thermal stratification? Runs were done with distilled water and with ordinary water-- why on earth was ordinary water used? "The lumped parameter electrical resistivity of the aqueous solution was 1667 ohm-cm; however, controlled bubbling results in calculated impedances as high as ~12,000 ohm-cm." This sounds to me like another candidate for an artifact: resistance varies with the amount of bubbling. "When careful observation is made of some samples of nickel under controlled low-to-moderate current density, cathodic conditions excess heat is observed...in greater amounts than that which occurred for the ohmic controls...power amplification in the range 1.44 +-0.58...2.27+-1.02...power densities...0.088+-0.053 W/cm2." Notice the word, "some"-- how many samples were run? At a 5% significance level, one out of 20 results is by chance fluctuation. So, picking and choosing from complex sets of data can find some striking results to focus on. Hopefully, Swartz will lay out the data in full in his forthcoming paper. I am worried that the +- error range is so large for each value. Similarily, Fig. 2 and 3 show "thermal background peaks" up to .01 and .1 watt respectively for hours with no input power-- I wonder what the cause is, actual heat excursions, or measurement artifacts? Also, the control ohmic heating resistors are necessarily located differently than the cathode with respect to the thermister. The electrical resistance of the leads was also considered. A control run with Pt anode and Pt cathode gave "recovered power ratios...comparable to noise...1.19+-0.37." "Neither iron nor aluminum [cathodes] demonstrated excess heat." It is wonderful, and all too rare to find control runs. However, the controls necessarily differ in both their chemical and their nuclear properties. Artifacts can certainly vary according to the chemistry of the cathode. So what is proven, after all? No blaim here-- it's a fact that we all face, that these simple electrolytic systems are surprisingly complex. What do we know, after nine years? We know that we don't know. Fig. 4 tries to support the conclusion that "power amplification factor," Pout/Pin, drops from about 3.5 to about 1.5, as "applied transsample potential" goes from 11 to 51 volts. But at .6 V, there are ten points, ranging from about 1.1 to 3.5, from a "spiral nickel cathode". I don't understand that. "Figure 4 is a graph showing the output of the nickel cathodes and a control as a function of logarithmic applied voltage." This relationship could result from a well-known artifact: thermal stratification. At low voltages, there could be a stable hot layer at the location of the thermister. At higher voltages, bubbling would stir the cell and smooth out the measured temperature. Who knows? Well, it's Halloween. The Shadow knows. So, again, years of careful work by an unusually competent, careful researcher, and what is proven? Drowning in data stew, grasping at fickle patterns in the random bubbling? Overall, having examined many studies carefully for a year, I feel sad. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 19:54:40 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15370; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:52:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:52:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, John Schnurer Subject: Well... WHAT are they?? these ... plasmoids?? In-Reply-To: <01bce66c$9a21e3e0$LocalHost default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UOFoi.0.2m3.oTgMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ball? how big? Why are they plas-moid? Are they plasma .. plasma-like? I am asking a question here... anyone have a clean description? Please? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 20:09:57 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08928; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:02:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:02:22 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:02:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: Vortex-L Subject: Re: Light pulse experiment request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1910929790-534572214-878356939=:5904" Resent-Message-ID: <"GAqkK2.0.KB2.CdgMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --1910929790-534572214-878356939=:5904 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=dos-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE >Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:16:47 -1000 >From: Rick Monteverde >Subject: Light pulse experiment request >Gnorts - Gnorts? I would like to know what the appellation "gnort" means . Excuse my ignorance about this particular piece of information. >Would whoever it was who posted the message about the experiment with the >polaroid filters and fast pulses please repost it or e-mail me the post if >you still have a copy? I posted it . The title of the post was "Pockel Cell Light Speed Measurement" . I only got one other response to this thread . I understand the respondent's interest. I do not understand yours. >I thought I had archived it, but I must have put it in the trash folder >by accident - can't find it anywhere. Oh. >I was thinking about the "accumulation of something at instantaneous >velocity". Isn't there a way to get this effect without instaneous velocit= y >via the uh, "time reversed phase conjugate waves" - one of Bearden's >favorite buzz phrases? I don't know anything about the alleged phenomena you have enclosed in quotation marks. Bearden I've heard of . ROTFL of his a material and never followed up with any requests for further information because I'm not interested. >If there is a wave component that heads from the source to the target but >which travels backwards in time, the target is blocked to this wave by the >polarized filter back there in the past (before the time-forward component >of the incoming pulse begins to reach the target). Then when the >time-forward component reaches the target and slips through the now-open >filter but doesn't find it's spooky twin component there to sum with, it >doesn't light up the target because all its bits haven't accumulated there >properly. >You can't get any FTL goodies out of this because if you're at the target >end when the time reversed component is arriving, I don't think you can >detect it by any means at all until it's time-forward component arrives to >bit-mask it for you. You might then see that you *had* indeed detected it >as indicated by the now darkened pulse, but it's too late to be FTL. Interesting . But the experiment was not intended to prove FTL communications , only the accuracy of lightspeed measurements by M-M and other methods. Are you still interested? >Whether or not any of the above is correct, you know you've been reading >this fringe-science stuff on the internet too long when it ALL BEGINS TO >MAKE SENSE. I take it then all of what appears in this forum is nonsensical to you. I can relate to this syndrome . I can't even understand the first line of Bearden's articles. So what are you doing here , if I may ask? >Aaaarrrghhhh! Happy Halloween! Merry Christmas...text follows . Executable graphic file attached. :-) Jim Ostrowski =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Sansbury on his experiment We tend to think of light as a thing, eg, a wave front in a massless ether, a massless photon, or now, according to quantum electrodynamics and photonics, as a probabilistic photon. But suppose light was instead the cumulative effect of instantaneous forces at a distance for distances large relative to the atom. Then if we could emit a brief, say 10 nanosecond, laser pulse of light toward a photodiode 28 feet away but blocked the light path at the photodiode until the expected time of arrival of the beginning of the light pulse (28 nanoseconds later) we might not observe any signal above background noise in the photodiode. Whereas if we left the photodiode unblocked for all or some of the .3= 8 nanoseconds of emission time plus travel time and observed a signal, then our supposition would be prvven. An experiment was carried out under contract with Quantum Technology, a manufacturer of Pockel crystal modulators, to determine the validity of this supposition. The light source was a continuous laser (514nm Argon laser,Spectra Physics 168-69)that could be blocked or unblocked at the source by applying to a Quantum Technology ADP crystal directly in front of the laser; a 100 volt pulse from a Quantum Technology voltage driver model 3100 across the crystal rotated the polarization of light transmitted by the crystal 90 degrees. The light would then be blocked or transmitted by a polarizer until the voltage was reduced to zero. The rise and fall times of transmission using these devices is according to specs 7nsec. An identical crystal modulator and polarizer and voltage driver was placed in front of a photodiode receiver 18 feet from a mirror that itself was 10 feet from the source polarizer. The drivers were controlled by 1 volt pulses from pulse generators. On the first pulse generator(an HP 8004A) the pulse width of the square source pulse was set to 10nsec and the cycle time to 3.3mhz (300nsec). Initially only the first modulator was pulsed and the laser power emitted at first was about 25 mV sufficient to produce a 3mV maximum reaction of the photodiode when the photodiode was unblocked; then a .1volt increase on the rising edge of the 10nsec pulse every 300nsec triggered the second pulse generator (a Data Pulse 113). The delay on the second pulse generator was set as required; this delay time represented the time between the trigger from the first pulse generator and the pulse producing a transmission =91pulse=92 in f= ront of the photodiode; this delay was set to 28nsec minus the cable delay; the distance from the source optics to the receiver optics was 28 feet; this delay was reduced by one nsec and the transmission pulse width was widened by one nsec in successive steps until no further increase in the phodiode response was produced. All other windows of this width produced smaller photodiode responses. Then the laser power was quadrupled and the delay and pulse width adjusted as before to produce the maximum photodiode response and non noise area of the response curve. The connections between the source pulse driver and crystal modulator and those between the receiver pulse driver and crystal modulator were 12 feet and those between the pulse drivers and pulse generators were 6 feet as were the connections between the pulse generators and the oscilliscope The connections between the two pulse generators was 1 foot and the electrical delay adjustment was made as described above. The spec delay of the cable was confirmed by sending a pulse from the pulse generator into two channels of the oscilliscope where one connector was 1 foot longer using this piece of cable. Hence the time between the trigger point on the oscilliscope and the square pulse of the second pulse generator was the time to the nearest .1nsec between the actual trapezoidal pulses of the crystal modulator in front of the laser and of that in front of the photodiode. The second channel of the oscilliscope showed the response of the photodiode, a FND-100Q from EEG,of Salem,Mass. connected to a bias voltage supply that was variable up to 100 volts; the rise time of the photodiode voltage through a 50ohm resistance was less than 1 nsec; that is it produced .36Amps/Watt at 514nm. Also according to specs the dark current was 10 to 25nAmps, the active surface is a square 2.24mm by 2.24mm. So 1mWatt produced 00036Amps which through a 50 ohm resistor produced about 1.8mV. A 12 foot cable was connected from the same side of the grounded resistor as the photodiode to an oscilliscope which registered non noise voltages when the receiver pulse of various widths had the right delay relative to the source pulse. It was apparent from this experiment that exposure of a photodiode to a flash of monochromatic light traveling toward the photodiode during the time of travel and before the expected time of arrival could produce a signal on the photodiode that was not produced if exposure was blocked until the expected time of arrival. Also in this experiment when the intensity of the laser flash was quadrupled, the delay before the rise time of the signal on the photodiode was halved etc.. To me these results imply that light is the cumulative effect of instantaneous forces; That light is perhaps not a moving thing like an ether wave front or a photon, even a probabalistic photon, would avoid the problem of the masslessness of the ether and of the photon but would pose other problems since we are so accustomed to thinking of light in this way. But if one can interpret the results of this experiment differently or if one can obtain different results let me know. The experiment was motivated by considerations such as that the Fizeau-Foucault -Michelson light speed measurments used various intensities but generally such that the intensity at the receiver lens was about the same in all these cases and that no attempt was made to measure variations in light speed associated with markedly different levels of intensity. Another consideration was that Bradley's stellar aberration light speed measurement sees to be explainable in terms of the cumulative effect of instantaneous forces at a distance. This implies that Roemer's light speed measurement could be due to changes in intensity of the light reflected by Jupiter's moons toward the earth due to the changes in distance between the Earth and Jupiter and these changes in intensity, not the speed of light, determined how soon one could spot a moon emerging from behind Jupiter. Indeed this interpretation is supported by the fact mentioned in Bradley's paper that other larger moons (eg Europa) did not show the same differences as Io. {end} --1910929790-534572214-878356939=:5904 Content-Type: APPLICATION/octet-stream; name="pcelexp1.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Download and type pcelexp1 [enter] +76BAIpM/zDtCcl0IFb8rDwNdAeAZP/f6fT/Xq1OPQ9GdAXi9+kFAMYG/wEB tA/NEDwHfALNIKL9AbQLuwABzRCi/gG0CzHbzRCg+QE6Bv0BdAQw5M0QHrhA AI7YoGUAHyT3ULraA+yoCHT7geoCAFhQ7osO+wHR6bgAuI7AvgACMf/zpaD5 AToG/QF0A+hRAKD6AYA+/wEAdAOg/gG62QPuWAwIgeoBAO6APv8BAHUotAK6 ABnNELgGDM0htAfNIbQLzRCg/QEw5M0Q6BMAtAu3AIoe/gHNELQCugAXzRDN IAa4QACOwL9sACahbAAFCAAmOQV1+wfDBj8AQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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AAAAABEAAAAEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAf/8AAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAAAAAPAAAAAAAIKAgBAQE IKAgILCggAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAhAAAAAAARAKAEBAQggKAgryAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAIQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAAg IYARIAAAIIAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAD8kgCCvNIA/IKAE IAQgsIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAILCAESCkgCEgAIQAhCCgAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --1910929790-534572214-878356939=:5904-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 20:32:20 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12701; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:28:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:28:16 -0800 X-ROUTED: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:24:16 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <345926CB.52EF southconn.com> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:31:07 -0800 From: paula Organization: sisters of silicone, inc X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: One hand References: <199710300753.XAA15488 franc.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g5-8K2.0.M63.U_gMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > Greg and all, > Rational discussion, both pro *and* con, is valuable. But personal attacks > are destructive, and responses to them are usually counterproductive. > Although Mr. Wall mixes some valid concerns into his rants, he has > unfortunately chosen to assume an extremely intemperate tone. Rising to the > bait and responding in kind will only feed him; I would suggest that such > posts be simply ignored. Nobody respond to them. He may then get bored and go away. > Dan Quickert > SMOT order #16 Dan...exactly my thinking...thanks for putting it so well.....steve Remember: Be kind to you skin, because it holds you in..... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 21:36:17 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25046; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:31:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:31:43 -0800 Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:31:25 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: Free Energy cc: vortex , fepps@halcyon.com, kami@iafrica.com Subject: Re: Fw: DEBUNKING VIRUSES In-Reply-To: <199710301945.LAA17690 mail1.halcyon.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jB0-P.0.G76.-whMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is this the one??....see below: On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Fred Epps wrote: >>virus supposedly ravaging his country. He wanted me to post it on the >>list, but instead I told him that these email viruses were actually mental >>viruses, and I didn't want to spread the >>disease :-) Unfortunately I have deleted the posts debunking these types >>of viruses. Can anyone who has this information please send it to him? >>Thanks! >> >>Fred >>---------- >>> From: kami >>> To: halcyon.com >>> Subject: Fwd: DEBUNKING VIRUSES >>> Date: Thursday, October 30, 1997 11:37 AM >>> >>> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 97 11:35:20 PST >>> From: kami >>> To: FRED >>> Subject: DEBUNKING VIRUSES >>> >>> HI FRED >>> Thanks for the e mail , very interesting that the virus story has been >>> debunked on your side , I would greatly appreciate any further info I >>> can get on this as this country is practically in hysterics regarding >>> these viruses right to the point of it being mentioned on T.V. Perhaps >>> a little official debunking would do it some good , mainly because our >>> postal and telephone systems are so inefficient people are scared of >>> the fact that e mail may go that way too. >>> REGARDS >>> MARTIN>>> kami iafrica.com ------------------snip--------------- >From bpaddock csonline.net Mon Aug 18 17:50:37 1997 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:44:55 -0400 From: Bob Paddock To: vramos ctv.es Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MAIL VIRUS - READ THIS Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: freenrg-l eskimo.com >From earlier this year: Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 15:34:01 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: hoax viruses Here's a warning which should innoculate freenrg-L users against the mind- viruses called "hoaxes" and "urban legends." .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page __________________________________________________________ The U.S. Department of Energy Computer Incident Advisory Capability ___ __ __ _ ___ / | /_\ / \___ __|__ / \ \___ __________________________________________________________ INFORMATION BULLETIN Internet Hoaxes: PKZ300, Irina, Good Times, Deeyenda, Ghost November 20, 1996 15:00 GMT Number H-05 ______________________________________________________________________________ PROBLEM: This bulletin addresses the following hoaxes and erroneous warnings: PKZ300 Warning, Irina, Good Times, Deeyenda, and Ghost.exe PLATFORM: All, via e-mail DAMAGE: Time lost reading and responding to the messages SOLUTION: Pass unvalidated warnings only to your computer security department or incident response team. See below on how to recognize validated and unvalidated warnings and hoaxes. ______________________________________________________________________________ VULNERABILITY New hoaxes and warnings have appeared on the Internet and old ASSESSMENT: hoaxes are still being cirulated. ______________________________________________________________________________ Introduction ============ The Internet is constantly being flooded with information about computer viruses and Trojans. However, interspersed among real virus notices are computer virus hoaxes. While these hoaxes do not infect systems, they are still time consuming and costly to handle. At CIAC, we find that we are spending much more time de-bunking hoaxes than handling real virus incidents. This advisory addresses the most recent warnings that have appeared on the Internet and are being circulated throughout world today. We will also address the history behind virus hoaxes, how to identify a hoax, and what to do if you think a message is or is not a hoax. Users are requested to please not spread unconfirmed warnings about viruses and Trojans. If you receive an unvalidated warning, don't pass it to all your friends, pass it to your computer security manager to validate first. Validated warnings from the incident response teams and antivirus vendors have valid return addresses and are usually PGP signed with the organization's key. PKZ300 Warning ============== The PKZ300 Trojan is a real Trojan program, but the initial warning about it was released over a year ago. For information pertaining to PKZ300 Trojan reference CIAC Notes issue 95-10, that was released in June of 1995. http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/notes/Notes10.shtml The warning itself, on the other hand, is gaining urban legend status. There has been an extremely limited number of sightings of this Trojan and those appeared over a year ago. Even though the Trojan warning is real, the repeated circulation of the warning is a nuisance. Individuals who need the current release of PKZIP should visit the PKWARE web page at http://www.pkware.com. CIAC recommends that you DO NOT recirculate the warning about this particular Trojan. Irina Virus Hoax ================ The "Irina" virus warnings are a hoax. The former head of an electronic publishing company circulated the warning to create publicity for a new interactive book by the same name. The publishing company has apologized for the publicity stunt that backfired and panicked Internet users worldwide. The original warning claimed to be from a Professor Edward Pridedaux of the College of Slavic Studies in London; there is no such person or college. However, London's School of Slavonic and East European Studies has been inundated with calls. This poorly thought-out publicity stunt was highly irresponsible. For more information pertaining to this hoax, reference the UK Daily Telegraph at http://www.telegraph.co.uk. Good Times Virus Hoax ===================== The "Good Times" virus warnings are a hoax. There is no virus by that name in existence today. These warnings have been circulating the Internet for years. The user community must become aware that it is unlikely that a virus can be constructed to behave in the manner ascribed in the "Good Times" virus warning. For more information related to this urban legend, reference CIAC Notes 95-09. http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/notes/Notes09.shtml Deeyenda Virus Hoax =================== The "Deeyenda" virus warnings are a hoax. CIAC has received inqueries regarding the validity of the Deeyenda virus. The warnings are very similar to those for Good Times, stating that the FCC issued a warning about it, and that it is self activating and can destroy the contents of a machine just by being downloaded. Users should note that the FCC does not and will not issue virus or Trojan warnings. It is not their job to do so. As of this date, there are no known viruses with the name Deeyenda in existence. For a virus to spread, it must be executed. Reading a mail message does not execute the mail message. Trojans and viruses have been found as executable attachments to mail messages, but they must be extracted and executed to do any harm. CIAC still affirms that reading E-mail, using typical mail agents, can not activate malicious code delivered in or with the message. Ghost.exe Warning ================= The Ghost.exe program was originally distributed as a free screen saver containing some advertising information for the author's company (Access Softek). The program opens a window that shows a Halloween background with ghosts flying around the screen. On any Friday the 13th, the program window title changes and the ghosts fly off the window and around the screen. Someone apparently got worried and sent a message indicating that this might be a Trojan. The warning grew until the it said that Ghost.exe was a Trojan that would destroy your hard drive and the developers got a lot of nasty phone calls (their names and phone numbers were in the About box of the program.) A simple phone call to the number listed in the program would have stopped this warning from being sent out. The original ghost.exe program is just cute; it does not do anything damaging. Note that this does not mean that ghost could not be infected with a virus that does do damage, so the normal antivirus procedure of scanning it before running it should be followed. History of Virus Hoaxes ======================= Since 1988, computer virus hoaxes have been circulating the Internet. In October of that year, according to Ferbrache ("A pathology of Computer Viruses" Springer, London, 1992) one of the first virus hoaxes was the 2400 baud modem virus: SUBJ: Really Nasty Virus AREA: GENERAL (1) I've just discovered probably the world's worst computer virus yet. I had just finished a late night session of BBS'ing and file treading when I exited Telix 3 and attempted to run pkxarc to unarc the software I had downloaded. Next thing I knew my hard disk was seeking all over and it was apparently writing random sectors. Thank god for strong coffee and a recent backup. Everything was back to normal, so I called the BBS again and downloaded a file. When I went to use ddir to list the directory, my hard disk was getting trashed again. I tried Procomm Plus TD and also PC Talk 3. Same results every time. Something was up so I hooked up to my test equipment and different modems (I do research and development for a local computer telecommunications company and have an in-house lab at my disposal). After another hour of corrupted hard drives I found what I think is the world's worst computer virus yet. The virus distributes itself on the modem sub- carrier present in all 2400 baud and up modems. The sub-carrier is used for ROM and register debugging purposes only, and otherwise serves no othr (sp) purpose. The virus sets a bit pattern in one of the internal modem registers, but it seemed to screw up the other registers on my USR. A modem that has been "infected" with this virus will then transmit the virus to other modems that use a subcarrier (I suppose those who use 300 and 1200 baud modems should be immune). The virus then attaches itself to all binary incoming data and infects the host computer's hard disk. The only way to get rid of this virus is to completely reset all the modem registers by hand, but I haven't found a way to vaccinate a modem against the virus, but there is the possibility of building a subcarrier filter. I am calling on a 1200 baud modem to enter this message, and have advised the sysops of the two other boards (names withheld). I don't know how this virus originated, but I'm sure it is the work of someone in the computer telecommunications field such as myself. Probably the best thing to do now is to stick to 1200 baud until we figure this thing out. Mike RoChenle This bogus virus description spawned a humorous alert by Robert Morris III : Date: 11-31-88 (24:60) Number: 32769 To: ALL Refer#: NONE From: ROBERT MORRIS III Read: (N/A) Subj: VIRUS ALERT Status: PUBLIC MESSAGE Warning: There's a new virus on the loose that's worse than anything I've seen before! It gets in through the power line, riding on the powerline 60 Hz subcarrier. It works by changing the serial port pinouts, and by reversing the direction one's disks spin. Over 300,000 systems have been hit by it here in Murphy, West Dakota alone! And that's just in the last 12 minutes. It attacks DOS, Unix, TOPS-20, Apple-II, VMS, MVS, Multics, Mac, RSX-11, ITS, TRS-80, and VHS systems. To prevent the spresd of the worm: 1) Don't use the powerline. 2) Don't use batteries either, since there are rumors that this virus has invaded most major battery plants and is infecting the positive poles of the batteries. (You might try hooking up just the negative pole.) 3) Don't upload or download files. 4) Don't store files on floppy disks or hard disks. 5) Don't read messages. Not even this one! 6) Don't use serial ports, modems, or phone lines. 7) Don't use keyboards, screens, or printers. 8) Don't use switches, CPUs, memories, microprocessors, or mainframes. 9) Don't use electric lights, electric or gas heat or airconditioning, running water, writing, fire, clothing or the wheel. I'm sure if we are all careful to follow these 9 easy steps, this virus can be eradicated, and the precious electronic flui9ds of our computers can be kept pure. ---RTM III Since that time virus hoaxes have flooded the Internet.With thousands of viruses worldwide, virus paranoia in the community has risen to an extremely high level. It is this paranoia that fuels virus hoaxes. A good example of this behavior is the "Good Times" virus hoax which started in 1994 and is still circulating the Internet today. Instead of spreading from one computer to another by itself, Good Times relies on people to pass it along. How to Identify a Hoax ====================== There are several methods to identify virus hoaxes, but first consider what makes a successful hoax on the Internet. There are two known factors that make a successful virus hoax, they are: (1) technical sounding language, and (2) credibility by association. If the warning uses the proper technical jargon, most individuals, including technologically savy individuals, tend to believe the warning is real. For example, the Good Times hoax says that "...if the program is not stopped, the computer's processor will be placed in an nth-complexity infinite binary loop which can severely damage the processor...". The first time you read this, it sounds like it might be something real. With a little research, you find that there is no such thing as an nth-complexity infinite binary loop and that processors are designed to run loops for weeks at a time without damage. When we say credibility by association we are referring to whom sent the warning. If the janitor at a large technological organization sends a warning to someone outside of that organization, people on the outside tend to believe the warning because the company should know about those things. Even though the person sending the warning may not have a clue what he is talking about, the prestigue of the company backs the warning, making it appear real. If a manager at the company sends the warning, the message is doubly backed by the company's and the manager's reputations. Individuals should also be especially alert if the warning urges you to pass it on to your friends. This should raise a red flag that the warning may be a hoax. Another flag to watch for is when the warning indicates that it is a Federal Communication Commission (FCC) warning. According to the FCC, they have not and never will disseminate warnings on viruses. It is not part of their job. CIAC recommends that you DO NOT circulate virus warnings without first checking with an authoritative source. Authoritative sources are your computer system security administrator or a computer incident advisory team. Real warnings about viruses and other network problems are issued by different response teams (CIAC, CERT, ASSIST, NASIRC, etc.) and are digitally signed by the sending team using PGP. If you download a warning from a teams web site or validate the PGP signature, you can usually be assured that the warning is real. Warnings without the name of the person sending the original notice, or warnings with names, addresses and phone numbers that do not actually exist are probably hoaxes. What to Do When You Receive a Warning ===================================== Upon receiving a warning, you should examine its PGP signature to see that it is from a real response team or antivirus organization. To do so, you will need a copy of the PGP software and the public signature of the team that sent the message. The CIAC signature is available from the CIAC web server at: http://ciac.llnl.gov If there is no PGP signature, see if the warning includes the name of the person submitting the original warning. Contact that person to see if he/she really wrote the warning and if he/she really touched the virus. If he/she is passing on a rumor or if the address of the person does not exist or if there is any questions about theauthenticity or the warning, do not circulate it to others. Instead, send the warning to your computer security manager or incident response team and let them validate it. When in doubt, do not send it out to the world. Your computer security managers and the incident response teams teams have experts who try to stay current on viruses and their warnings. In addition, most anti-virus companies have a web page containing information about most known viruses and hoaxes. You can also call or check the web site of the company that produces the product that is supposed to contain the virus. Checking the PKWARE site for the current releases of PKZip would stop the circulation of the warning about PKZ300 since there is no released version 3 of PKZip. Another useful web site is the "Computer Virus Myths home page" (http://www.kumite.com/myths/) which contains descriptions of several known hoaxes. In most cases, common sense would eliminate Internet hoaxes. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CIAC, the Computer Incident Advisory Capability, is the computer security incident response team for the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and the emergency backup response team for the National Institutes of Health (NIH). CIAC is located at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California. CIAC is also a founding member of FIRST, the Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams, a global organization established to foster cooperation and coordination among computer security teams worldwide. CIAC services are available to DOE, DOE contractors, and the NIH. CIAC can be contacted at: Voice: +1 510-422-8193 FAX: +1 510-423-8002 STU-III: +1 510-423-2604 E-mail: ciac llnl.gov For emergencies and off-hour assistance, DOE, DOE contractor sites, and the NIH may contact CIAC 24-hours a day. During off hours (5PM - 8AM PST), call the CIAC voice number 510-422-8193 and leave a message, or call 800-759-7243 (800-SKY-PAGE) to send a Sky Page. CIAC has two Sky Page PIN numbers, the primary PIN number, 8550070, is for the CIAC duty person, and the secondary PIN number, 8550074 is for the CIAC Project Leader. Previous CIAC notices, anti-virus software, and other information are available from the CIAC Computer Security Archive. World Wide Web: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ Anonymous FTP: ciac.llnl.gov (128.115.19.53) Modem access: +1 (510) 423-4753 (28.8K baud) +1 (510) 423-3331 (28.8K baud) CIAC has several self-subscribing mailing lists for electronic publications: 1. CIAC-BULLETIN for Advisories, highest priority - time critical information and Bulletins, important computer security information; 2. CIAC-NOTES for Notes, a collection of computer security articles; 3. SPI-ANNOUNCE for official news about Security Profile Inspector (SPI) software updates, new features, distribution and availability; 4. SPI-NOTES, for discussion of problems and solutions regarding the use of SPI products. Our mailing lists are managed by a public domain software package called ListProcessor, which ignores E-mail header subject lines. To subscribe (add yourself) to one of our mailing lists, send the following request as the E-mail message body, substituting CIAC-BULLETIN, CIAC-NOTES, SPI-ANNOUNCE or SPI-NOTES for list-name and valid information for LastName FirstName and PhoneNumber when sending E-mail to ciac-listproc llnl.gov: subscribe list-name LastName, FirstName PhoneNumber e.g., subscribe ciac-notes OHara, Scarlett W. 404-555-1212 x36 You will receive an acknowledgment containing address, initial PIN, and information on how to change either of them, cancel your subscription, or get help. PLEASE NOTE: Many users outside of the DOE, ESnet, and NIH computing communities receive CIAC bulletins. If you are not part of these communities, please contact your agency's response team to report incidents. Your agency's team will coordinate with CIAC. The Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams (FIRST) is a world-wide organization. A list of FIRST member organizations and their constituencies can be obtained by sending email to docserver first.org with an empty subject line and a message body containing the line: send first-contacts. This document was prepared as an account of work sponsored by an agency of the United States Government. Neither the United States Government nor the University of California nor any of their employees, makes any warranty, express or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights. Reference herein to any specific commercial products, process, or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation or favoring by the United States Government or the University of California. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of the United States Government or the University of California, and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes. LAST 10 CIAC BULLETINS ISSUED (Previous bulletins available from CIAC) G-43: Vulnerabilities in Sendmail G-44: SCO Unix Vulnerability G-45: Vulnerability in HP VUE G-46: Vulnerabilities in Transarc DCE and DFS G-47: Unix FLEXlm Vulnerabilities G-48: TCP SYN Flooding and IP Spoofing Attacks H-01: Vulnerabilities in bash H-02: SUN's TCP SYN Flooding Solutions H-03: HP-UX_suid_Vulnerabilities H-04: HP-UX Ping Vulnerability RECENT CIAC NOTES ISSUED (Previous Notes available from CIAC) Notes 07 - 3/29/95 A comprehensive review of SATAN Notes 08 - 4/4/95 A Courtney update Notes 09 - 4/24/95 More on the "Good Times" virus urban legend Notes 10 - 6/16/95 PKZ300B Trojan, Logdaemon/FreeBSD, vulnerability in S/Key, EBOLA Virus Hoax, and Caibua Virus Notes 11 - 7/31/95 Virus Update, Hats Off to Administrators, America On-Line Virus Scare, SPI 3.2.2 Released, The Die_Hard Virus Notes 12 - 9/12/95 Securely configuring Public Telnet Services, X Windows, beta release of Merlin, Microsoft Word Macro Viruses, Allegations of Inappropriate Data Collection in Win95 Notes 96-01 - 3/18/96 Java and JavaScript Vulnerabilities, FIRST Conference Announcement, Security and Web Search Engines, Microsoft Word Macro Virus Update -b Bob Antia antia leftbank.com The Left Bank Operation, Inc. http://www.leftbank.com TCP/IP Internetworking LAN/WAN/NT/UNIX Admin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from this list, send a letter to: Majordomo ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB ai.mit.edu ----------end snip--------- best to you & yours :) -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 23:17:23 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08892; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:01:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:01:51 -0800 Message-ID: <345AD447.4677 skypoint.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 01:03:35 -0600 From: John Logajan Organization: Skypoint Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hydrogen References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BGAQo.0.rA2.UFjMq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > You pass an electrical current through water and the water is > made conducting with another material. > a] in volts and amps and watt seconds how much electricty makes > how much gas. Gas in moles and liters at STP > b] if you burn the gas how much energy in btu, btu/hour, joules These values are all from my Thermodynamic Scorecard which is itself a small selection of various values -- it is one of the links on my web page. Gas volume = 24,500cc/mole 25C @ 1 Atm 1 mole = 6.0221E+23 particles (602,210,000,000,000,000,000,000) 1 ampere/second = 6.2422E+18 electrons = 1 coulomb 1 Joule (J) = 1 Watt-second Heat of formation (energy required to form one mole of substance): ------------------------------------ H2+O2 ==> H2O -285,800 J/mole Dissociation gas volume per ampere at 100% faraday efficiency: ------------------------------------------------------ 2(H2O) ==> 2(H2) + O2 0.1904 cc/second/ampere 25C or 0.1270 cc/second/ampere H2 25C or 0.0635 cc/second/ampere O2 25C i.e 24,500 * 6.2422E+18 / 2 / 6.0221E+23 * 1.5 = .1904 cc/sec/amp Also, 285,800 * 6.2422E+18 / 2 / 6.0221E+23 = 1.481J/ampere = 1.481 Volts minimum required to dissociate H2O. Molar heat capacities 25C (energy to raise one mole one degree Celsius): ------------------------------ H2O (liquid) 75 J/mole/degree (75.297) Heat of vaporization (energy required to transform liquid into gas): -------------------------- H2O 40,700 J/mole 100C @ constant pressure of 1 atm. Heat of fusion (energy required to transform solid to liquid): -------------------------- H2O 6,000 J/mole 0C Heat content at 25C (298K): -------------------------- H2O (liquid) 13,300 J/mole Thermal conductivity coefficients (k) 100C k's = milliwatt/centimeter/degree Celsius/seconds heat = k*area*(temp.hot-temp.cold)*time/thickness --------------------------- H2O (liquid) 6.8 H2O (gas) 0.239 Selected atomic weights ----------------------- H 1.00 1 O 15.99 8 Selected densities 20C (specific gravity / atomic weight) -------------------------------------- H2O 0.0553 moles/cc liquid -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-699-9472 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 23:44:55 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03051; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:35:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:35:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 01:35:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711010735.BAA17097 natasha.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Hydrogen Resent-Message-ID: <"0dU4V1.0.Xl.bkjMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:03 AM 11/1/97 -0600, John Logajan wrote: Just an additional clarification: When you apply electrical power to an electrolysis cell, the fraction of that power converted into chemical energy (in the form of H2 & O2 gas) is given by 1.48*I. The remainder of the input power, given by (V-1.48)*I, is converted directly into heat. If the electrolyte is made from D2O instead of H2O, change the 1.48 to 1.54. To first order, the salt added to the water to make it conductive doesn't affect this picture at all. It plays an important role inside the cell but, in the end, it is not consumed or permanently altered...it acts like a catalyst. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Oct 31 23:53:41 1997 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04414; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:49:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 23:49:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <345ADD66.28EE6A50 microtronics.com.au> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 18:12:30 +1030 From: Greg Watson Organization: Greg Watson Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: LaFonte Generator Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------58DD01544ADB0854668951A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"xVWFk.0.n41.RyjMq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/12219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------58DD01544ADB0854668951A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Butch & All, I have just completed 6 hours of QField sim work on your exciting idea. My first gut reaction, was that the idea would work as it looked able of meeting the PRIME requirement of a OU flux gate generator. That PRIME requirement is "Current flowing in the output coil as a result of movement of the flux gate in the air gap, will produce a magnetic flux in the air gap which will INCREASE the force of attraction during the flux gate's approach into the air gap and REDUCE the force of drag back as the flux gate departs the air gap." Normal flux gate generators operate in reverse, that is output coil current produces a magnetic flux which REDUCES the force of attraction on the approaching flux gate and INCREASES the force of drag back as the flux gate departs the air gap. That's why the drive motor needs to supply more torque. Now, to your IDEA Butch, On the surface, the approaching ferrite rods WILL reduce the flux flowing through the rod with the coil. The coil will then produce a ADDITIVE flux flow to try to stop the reducing flux flowing through the rod. As this coil's flux (Mmf) is in phase with the magnet's flux (Mmf), total flux in the circuit will INCREASE. This SHOULD cause a INCREASE in the flux in the air gap and INCREASE the force of attraction on the approaching flux gate and produce OU. HOWEVER, I found that my gut feeling was wrong. The QField sims showed that the rod with the coil WILL produce a ADDITIVE flux (as predicted) and the ADDITIVE coil flux will provide a better flux path through the ferrite rod (it's reluctance will drop) / (NOT predicted). This decreased reluctance in the ferrite rod with the coil will ACTUALLY cause a REDUCTION in the magnetic flux in the air gap and a REDUCTION in the attractive forces on the approaching flux gate. Sorry, but not OU. I have attached a drawing which I hope will make this clear. Good idea Butch, it really looked very good for a while. PLEASE let me know if I have got something wrong. I really thought it would work! -- Best Regards, Greg Watson Http://www.microtronics.com.au/~gwatson --------------58DD01544ADB0854668951A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="lafonte-gen-1.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="lafonte-gen-1.gif" R0lGODdh9AHMAfcAAAAAAICAgIAAAICAAACAAACAgAAAgIAAgICAQABAQACA/wBAgEAA/4BA AP///8DAwP8AAP//AAD/AAD//wAA//8A////gAD/gID//4CA//8AgP+AQOcJNFgABgAAFF0A AOV/tzC/+QAAAOYADpz7ygAAAAAgVgEWX076OggFfwAFrn/3TikAvPAAADYAAgACRgAAAAIS nP4AADYABE4XJ+8BJUMG/JICRvwHZQD3TgAF8m+OpPIF8n8BRAAF1rYAAB8cz0QAACAc4Ccm IGiOygIX9ycF8g03oI4AAJiO3gAYD4YF8gwAAA0F8oKPCAI3oEwXJwwAAAIAAIcAAP8BPz8A AKAAAKAAAh4AAg8DMQAAAAEAAKAAhjYAAtOPTAAXRwAAAIYAAcwBzAEAhgAAAAEAAAIAAADB 0hgABtYXRze/91wAAD8AW0QAXQG/96gAADQAXW2/9l0AAMx/t20AABAAAAAAAAAAABwAAPkA W21/txAAAAAAAHgAAPgAW8x/ugAAAGsAAAF/t5AAAPgAWwp/ujAAAIIAAAAAAAAAANAAAIJ/ urQAAIIAWzAAAAIAAAAAAAAAANAAAAJ/utQAAAIAW8wAAAh/urAAQ6gAQ4QAXVIAW/9/uJD/ 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