From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 00:08:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15294; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:52:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:52:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:54:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BrF, Br, and HBr as hydrino formation catalysts Resent-Message-ID: <"8UfhY1.0.kk3.Bjqgq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:05:14 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >[snip] >>Electrolysis of hydrobromic with hydroflouric acid might produce excess >>heat, maybe at a very high voltage, and at a high frequency in order to >>keep the freed H and Br and F together. >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >> >> >I tried electrolyzing water at high frequencies from 1-20 kHZ, and a >voltage of about 80 volt (peak-peak) square wave AC (current was a >couple of hundred mA). I thought this might produce an excess of H2 >and O2 gasses. To my untrained eye, it didn't appear to (even when >KHCO3 was added), though I made no measurements. (I expected fierce >bubbling, and got only a fine curtain). Didn't think to look for >temperature increase. "Experiment" wasn't set up for it anyway. >I was looking for a gross effect, and didn't get it. At 100% Faraday efficiency the 200 mA should only produce 0.03386 cm^2/s of O2 + H2. (This number brought to you courtesy John Logajan's Thermodynamic Scorecard. We now return to our regular broadcasting.) The curtain you created sounds like there might be excess gas, but it might have been partially CO2 and partially steam. BTW, it might be easy to do the calorimetry. I have had very good luck doing boiloff experiments lately. Basically all you have to do is preheat the cell to 100 C and insulate it well. Weigh before and after. Seems to provide a very accurate method of calorimetry, but you have to operate the cell at boiling - something I consider an advantage because that's where you want to get anyway to be practical! Was this a while ago or just recently? I take it you used pure water prior to adding the KHCO3? Wouldn't happen to have access to HBr and HF would you? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 00:08:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15246; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:52:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:52:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:54:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Resent-Message-ID: <"wTtEC1.0.6k3.4jqgq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >So there should be a column of rising air above a concave shaving >mirror lying face up on the table (even at night in a dark room :). If so, it would be imperceptable. Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE on a Cavendish ball though. Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying it when he is done with his other work? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 00:12:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16541; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:10:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:10:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:12:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts) Resent-Message-ID: <"FFk2H1.0.M24.fzqgq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] >However in order to actually neutralise the charge, the NOx- has to be >oxidised. >That means that we are looking at two redox reactions that look like >this: > >K+ + wall -> K + wall+ > >wall+ + NOx- -> wall + "NOx" >---------------------------- + >K+ + NOx- -> K + "NOx" > >However we know already that the formation of KNOx is strongly >exothermic, hence such a "backward" reaction would not run without >heat being added, and even then, only very reluctantly. >This leads me to suspect, that in fact little if any K+ will actually >be reduced when contacting the wall. >I think a more likely scenario would be simple sublimation of the salt >on the wall (provided that the wall temperature is low enough to >permit this - not desirable of course). >[snip] >>>I was thinking more along the lines of ions being replenished by the >>>continued evaporation of the salt. >>>[snip] I think the reduction energy (and then some) was supplied at the time of ionization - by the filiment. >> >> >>Evaporation won't ionize the KNO3 very much, it will it? Even at 2000 C? > >I don't know whether it does or not, but it is obvious that this is >the reason why Mills et al include it in the experiment (i.e. as a >source of K+ ions in the gas phase). Yes, that's the stated reason, which is kind of how this discussion started. It appears there just can't be much in the way of K+ ions, plus there appears to be other special conditions on the collision constituants, making the right conditions very improbable, thus calling into question the theory. >So they must know something I don't. Perhaps one of our resident >chemists can answer this? (If anyone besides you and I is still >bothering to follow this thread). >[snip] Unlikely anyone is listening! 8^) Maybe if the thread were called "BLP gas-phase status" someone would read it. We haven't discussed helium for a long time. 8^) On further thought, "UFO staff economist discusses effect of global warming in Atlantis on birth rate" is more likely to get some readers. 8^) Happy New Year! Horace From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 04:43:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23098; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:35:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:35:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 05:31:52 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd16b1$3d5bf0e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JUDW83.0.qe5.4sugq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robert Stirniman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>>The only measured property of the aether is >>>the speed of light. >> Using who's watch? :-) >Anyone's clock and measuring rod, along with the appropriate conversion >factors, will work just fine. Even if we could not for some reason attain >the conversion factors, the ratio itself would be useful enough for many >calculations. Inconsistencies in our fundamental physical system and our >units of measurement do not result from the arbitrary conventions we >choose to use for length and time. The problem stems from our definition >of force, and consequently also the definition of energy. Results is what counts, right? > >We define force as the acceleration of inertial mass: F = ma. This might >be a fine definition, except that we don't really have any understanding of >the fundamental cause or units of inertia itself. I don't have a clue as to how that $500.00 "computer" under the hood of my car works, but when it does I get there. Hence, our definition >and the units we use for force (kg-meter/sec^2), is an arbitrary convention. Certainly, And if light-speed in furlongs/fortnight is more convenient, go for it. > >For example, just as well as we know that it takes a force to accelerate >a mass, we also know that it takes a force to accelerate an electric charge. >So why not define force as F = qa, and assign it the units (coul-meter/sec^2). How about F = (Volts/meter)* coulombs? It works. >Or, we know that a force exists between two charges, so why not assign it as >F = q^2/r^2. F = k q^2/r^2 is used all the time to show why "quantum mechanical tunneling" is physically impossible or about as likely as a frog jumping out of Grand Canyon). Or that a force exists between two masses -- so why not define >force as F= m^2/r^2. We also know that a force exists between two magnetic >poles, and that it would take a force to accelerate a free magnetic pole. The magnetostatic force F = 1E-7 m1*m2/r^2 (nt)where m1 and m2 are in ampere-meters works very well. >Hence you can find here six possible definitions of force, and if you get >into the nuclear strong and weak things, you might come up with a few more. You can bet your lunch on that one. :-) > >Now if you look closely at some of our physical "constants" such as G, e0, >and mu0, you may see them for what they really are -- fudge factors which >are required to match the values and units in various different definitions >of force. We haven't even bothered to come up with a fudge factor for the >acceleration of electric charge, F = qa, because no one has been able to >resolve the apparently relatively simple question of the composition of >electron mass -- how much is due to charge and energy in the self-electric >field, and how much of the electron's mass is due to something else, and >what else? As for the force due to acceleration of magnetic charge -- >forget about it. They say it doesn't exist. Are you sure you don't want to be a Movie Star? > >The values we use for our physical constants, probably say something >important about the properties of space, but these "constants" are not >properties themselves. They are more or less indicators of our physical >ineptitude -- our inability to unify electromagnetic forces with >inertial and gravitational forces. No problem, just build a "Bigger Hammer" like the SUPERCOLLIDER, and at around 1E27 ev it will unify everything, GUTS and ALL. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 04:45:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27251; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:36:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 04:36:09 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 05:11:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd16ae$6c8f67a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"P3TsP2.0.ff6.tsugq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robert Stirniman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> I think you just shot down interferometry, >> optics, and Snell's Law. :-) >> sin theta(1)/sin theta(2) = (e1/e0)^1/2 = c/v1 >Hi Fred. I don't see how being able to measure the speed of light >in a vacuum or a material medium, in any way invalidates Snell's >law or anything else. Neither do I. You brought it up. :-) > >What you see in the above equation (e0/e1) is a ratio. Correct. And pi is the ratio of area/radius^2 of a circle, c is the ratio of distance/time, mass is the ratio energy/c^2. So what? All I said was that "the only measurable property of the Aether is it's capacitance". You do not need >to know the absolute value or the units of e0 or e1. In any case e0 and >e1 are themselves merely ratios, and what you have above is a ratio of >ratios. We don't to know the vapor pressure and absolute viscosity of the Aether either, do we? > >e0 is by DEFINITION the ratio of the force between two arbitrarily >defined amounts of electric charge (coulombs) located an arbitrarily >defined distance apart (meter) along with a geometric factor of 4Pi, But pi is a ratio too. :-) >all divided by the force that it takes to increase the velocity of an >arbitrarily defined amount of inertial mass (kilogram) at an arbitrarily >defined amount of acceleration (meter/sec^2). This is why we pay the folks at the Bureau of Standards (now NIST)to keep guys like you from getting lost. :-) > >Whatever value we come up with for e0 is a completely arbitrary thing. >It is the represented ratio e0, that tells us something important -- a >comparison the amount and dimensions of inertial force with the amount >and dimenstions of the electrostatic coulomb force. Happy New Year, Robert. Regards, Frederick > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 09:16:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19457; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:12:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:12:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 08:13:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: sonic rocket? Resent-Message-ID: <"9Cudm2.0.xl4.Wvygq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the main problem with the mirror idea is that the angle of incidence is not equal to the angle of reflection for the vast majority of the radiation. The main problem is in building a true mirror, or at least an approximation, into the x-ray range. The convex lens idea might be easier. A thought about the lens, though. If it is non-symmetrical, say flat on one side, then there would be a net force on the lens. Stuff out at the focal points would not be necessary. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 09:29:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22138; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:18:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:18:08 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 08:21:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: sonic rocket? Resent-Message-ID: <"VZC3-1.0.qP5.F_ygq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think the main problem with the mirror idea is that the angle of incidence is not equal to the angle of reflection for the vast majority of the radiation. The main problem is in building a true mirror, or at least an approximation, into the x-ray range. The convex lens idea might be easier. A thought about the lens, though. If it is non-symmetrical, say flat on one side, then there would be a net force on the lens. Stuff out at the focal points would not be necessary. Oops, not true about not needing intervention at the focal points! Since the source of the radiation is uniform, then for every ray in one direction there is an exact match in the opposite direction. The impulse nets to zero. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 09:34:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25265; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:32:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:32:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 08:35:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: sonic rocket? Resent-Message-ID: <"xRbtd2.0.cA6.fCzgq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If ZPE is the source of inirtia, then even partial sheilding one side of a spinning wheel from ZPE should create a net force. The sheild would amount to creating a small gap between the semi-circular conductor envelope, preferably a superconductor, and the wheel. As discussed before, in regards to the two wheel levitator, changing inirtia a small percentage is worth much more than applying the same percentage force to the mass of a ship. One can levitate when the other is not even close. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 09:58:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23522; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:55:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:55:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34ABC852.2A78FA49 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 11:46:10 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E6iAU1.0.Nl5.-Xzgq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: "At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: "So there should be a column of rising air above a concave shaving mirror lying face up on the table (even at night in a dark room :)." If so, it would be imperceptable. Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE on a Cavendish ball though. Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying it when he is done with his other work? Regards, Horace Heffner" Hi Horace, I'm definitely interested. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 13:23:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28715; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:11:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:11:55 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:06:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Focus ZPE ...HH and Puthoff Q: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DqK173.0.W07.PQ0hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Below there is mention of focussing ZPE .... how would one do this? John On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >So there should be a column of rising air above a concave shaving > >mirror lying face up on the table (even at night in a dark room :). > > If so, it would be imperceptable. Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE > on a Cavendish ball though. Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying > it when he is done with his other work? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 14:20:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24017; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:13:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:13:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Taylor J. Smith" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:18:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd16ea$122031a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vUS9E.0.1t5.dJ1hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Taylor J. Smith To: Frederick J. Sparber Date: Thursday, January 01, 1998 5:44 AM Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: ... > > "The presence of matter-matter fields modifies C, > that is why the photons coming from the sun are > "Red Shifted". The Mossbaur Effect was used > to measure this Red Shift effect on the Earth also." > >Hi Frederick, > >Is sunlight incident to Jupiter red-shifted the >same, more, or less than sunlight hitting Earth? Good Morning, Jack. The Gravitational Red Shift on the Sun (actually the change in the speed of light)is determined by comparing the shift in frequency or wavelength of light from a spectral line from an element on the Earth as compared to the same spectral line from an element on the Sun. For instance a Hydrogen Beta Balmer Line measured from a Hydrogen discharge on Earth is shorter in wavelength or higher in frequency by two parts per million than the same line from photons from the Sun. If you know the Gravitational Potential, o* : o* = -GM/R^2 where G is the gravitational constant 6.67E-11, M is the mass of the "Star" and R is it's radius you can determine the mass of stars (if you can establish their radius). The astronomy folks constantly debate whether the Red Shift is Universe-expansion Doppler or Gravitational. Who wins? :-) >From this the change in local light speed c: c = c0(1 + o*/c^2) or since wavelength (lambda) equal c/f, f = f0(1 + o*/c^2). The Sun with a mass of 2E30 kg and a radius of 7E8 meters (o* = -272.24)gives a shift of 2 parts per million. Note that it will take light almost 5 seconds to traverse a distance equal to the diameter of the Sun. Big, ain't it? :-) Jupiter has a mass of 2E27 kg and a radius of 7.14E7 meters. o*= -GM/R^2 ie, (0* = -0.26) c will vary accordingly. Going by this the Red Shift is most pronounced in small massive Stars or "Black Holes". :-) However, the Mossbauer effect was used on the Earth to measure the shift in a gamma ray photon that "fell" 20 meters on a tower giving a "Shift" of 2 parts in 1.0E15 between the gamma source and the Mossbauer Effect detector. > Makes you wonder if c (S.O.L.) is way different out near Alpha Centauri, doesn't it? :-) Regards, Frederick > >Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 14:22:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24208; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:13:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:13:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Off Topic: Fat People Reduce Global Warming? Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:04:10 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd16f0$6c640be0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"v5TKY.0.nv5._J1hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mother Nature has a new angle, tie up CO2 as fixed carbon in fat people to reduce "Greenhouse Gases". It Figures,don't it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 14:56:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09502; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:45:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:45:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34AC1C8D.A7DEAC12 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 09:15:33 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Update 2nd Jan, 1998 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"R02Ig1.0.GK2.Wo1hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Sorry for being off line so long. Seems dual cpu systems are not as easy as I thought to get up. Dmec will have its OWN server. Dmec Research is still not functional yet. As the company will be registered as a NON profit business, it takes longer to get the articles of association right and OZ shuts down for 2-3 weeks over Christmas/New Year. EVERYBODY goes on Hoilday. Its warm you see............ Dmec will continue with the SMOT. Several possible patent infringement problems need to be ironed out. I can't give you a solid ship date for the SMOTs at present. If any purchaser wishes a refund, please post me via private email. Dmec's major research / development thrust will be the development of a remote area 500-1,000 watt RMOG type generator to provide torque & electricity for cooking, heating, water pumping, lighting, water purification, communication and other needs in 3rd world environments. I am currently working on a major change to my site. Will let you all know when its finished. Now to those 3,500 emails. PS: Thanks for all the calls. A belated Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all. Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 15:36:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16171; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:25:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:25:48 -0800 Message-ID: <34AC2550.17F23E3D compassnet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 17:22:56 -0600 From: "R. R. Stiffler" Reply-To: stiffler compassnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Mail List Subject: Free Energy & OU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EhnF32.0.Wy3.xN2hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Looking at KeelyNet $1700 prize, Zenergy $100K pirze , etc., what is OU ? As concerns KeeleyNet it looks like Input power will be measured as well as output power, so what it you can't measure input power ? What if the device does not use a power source of any kind ? Yet out puts power ? In addition what if you can not measure input power in any way other than what is output into a load ? Okay maybe we are talking about a difference between OU and Free Energy ? Like Free Energy is that taken from the sun's radiation. So then is a device that takes power from the aether a similar device ? If so than any device that draws power from ZPE is NOT OU, correct ? The power input exceeds the output, right ? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 16:50:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26139; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:45:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:45:39 -0800 Message-Id: <34AC328C.9ED7E86A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 03:19:24 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Free Energy & OU References: <34AC2550.17F23E3D compassnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JhdUP.0.IO6.nY3hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: R. R. Stiffler wrote: > > Looking at KeelyNet $1700 prize, Zenergy $100K pirze , etc., what is OU > ? > > As concerns KeeleyNet it looks like Input power will be measured as well > as output power, so what it you can't measure input power ? This is not a problem, if one assure any (usable) power entering the system remain below or equal a value (Pi) (measurable or not measurable) and the measured power taken from the system is assured above or equal to a value (Po) and if Po is greater than Pi, could apply to above sites to win the prize. > > What if the device does not use a power source of any kind ? Yet out > puts power ? In addition what if you can not measure input power in any > way other than what is output into a load ? Same as above, say, if your system output 1W and you don't use any power source, than you can choose a safe value for Pi i.e. 100 mW and claim that your system is not using input power no more than 100 mW and obtaining 1W output. Anyone who try to falsify your claim should find at least 100 mW power entering the system. > Okay maybe we are talking about a difference between OU and Free Energy > ? Like Free Energy is that taken from the sun's radiation. So then is a > device that takes power from the aether a similar device ? Recently, we agree on a excellent definition of "free energy" suggested by Bill Beaty. We use OU as acronym of f.e. and so OU has not a different meaning. The definition was: If "o/u device" means "device which extracts energy from a source or via a method not currently recognized by science", then we use the term in the way it most commonly appears. Nukes aren't "o/u", but stimulating nuclear reactions by high frequency electrical oscillators is "o/u". And as soon as maainstream science accepts the new idea, it ceases to be "o/u." In this criteria, any device using ZPE is falling in "free energy" or "OU" category for now, because there is no theory based method to use ZPE. Also ZPE or ZPF itself is a hypothetical thing as it has not yet complete experimental support for hypothesis. > > If so than any device that draws power from ZPE is NOT OU, correct ? The > power input exceeds the output, right ? No, any device using ZPE is OU. Currently there is no method to measure the tapped power from ZPE. For example a device interfering 10 kW ZPE power and tap 1 kW into device while wasting 9 kW as "less usable ZPE" and only convert 50W of 1 kW to easy usabl e power is still OU with this very bad efficiency figures. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 16:54:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09687; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:51:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:51:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34AC344F.F5D3CA90 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 03:26:55 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Off Topic: Fat People Reduce Global Warming? References: <01bd16f0$6c640be0$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TjlGa2.0.HN2.2e3hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Mother Nature has a new angle, tie up CO2 as fixed carbon in fat people to > reduce "Greenhouse Gases". > > It Figures,don't it? :-) > > Regards, Frederick It depends, to what they ate. I could not stop laughing! aaaaahhh! hamdi ucaaaaaaa From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 17:40:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA32329; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:36:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:36:45 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801020136.TAA12737 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Capacitance of The Aether and Energy Propagation In-Reply-To: <34AB2D8A.5D4F skylink.net> from Robert Stirniman at "Dec 31, 97 09:45:46 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:36:40 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pBTiH3.0.2v7.iI4hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > why not define force as F = qa, and assign it the units (coul-meter/sec^2). It doesn't really work. Both an electron and a proton have the same unit charge (but of opposite sign, of course) but unequal masses. Therefore the attractive force between them will be equal, the "q", charge will be equal (but opposite) but the acceleration of each will be unequal -- due to the mass difference. So if you want to compute acceleration due to force, you always have to factor in the mass somewhere. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 18:20:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05100; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:14:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:14:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980101201525.008157d0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 20:15:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Update 2nd Jan, 1998 In-Reply-To: <34AC1C8D.A7DEAC12 microtronics.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-gSbT3.0.WF1.Ys4hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:15 AM 1/2/98 +1030, Greg Watson wrote: >Dmec's major research / development thrust will be the development of a >remote area 500-1,000 watt RMOG type generator.... and... >I am currently working on a major change to my site.... >Now to those 3,500 emails. What is wrong with this picture! If EarthTech ever discovers/confirms a genuine o-u effect and we subsequently announce that we're revising our web page and answering fan mail...that will be your secret clue that something has gone dreadfully wrong with our discovery! Greg may have some good reasons for this behavior...I just can't imagine what they could be. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 19:29:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16215; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:25:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:25:00 -0800 Message-ID: <34AC79C1.5661 keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:23:13 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg--l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New O/U device? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BEz8i1.0.Hz3.Bu5hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts and Howdy! Got an email from Felix Wurth saying his website was now up...it is mostly in German, but his free energy machine (claims 200% efficiency) is described in English.... main page http://www.zeroenergy.com O/U machine http://www.zeroenergy.com/maschine.htm Electrically driven mechanical system....Felix also indicates it ties in with the Orffyreus wheel operation. I asked if he was planning to do an .AVI or movie clip so we could see it in operation....and if he would be amenable to bringing a working model to the US to demonstrate at one or more conferences, for proof and possible investors....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 19:38:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17869; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:36:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:36:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34AC60CA.5AC7 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 22:36:42 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Update 2nd Jan, 1998 References: <3.0.5.32.19980101201525.008157d0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z8a6k3.0.7N4.836hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > What is wrong with this picture! > There was a young man named Scott, who tried to order a SMOT. The device was delayed, and Scott was dismayed that his interest had ever been caught! HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 21:06:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07387; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:59:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:59:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AC64F1.20B9 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:54:25 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Expert on Arata spillover effect References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"95Yez2.0.Jp1.wG7hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan. 1, 1998 An expert, skilled in the art, comments: I would like to address the Arata and Zhang (A&Z) claim of excessively high loading inside the Pd black located inside their DS cathode. Let me jump to the conclusion...I don't believe the A&Z claim. What I do believe is that the D from the D2O goes into the cathode walls, the internal void space, and the Pd black equivalently (if there are any concentration gradients, it will be short-lived and highest nearest the electrolyte). Now, as to why... It is well known that electrolytically loading hydridable metals or alloys can be accomplished by using the metals as cathodes in electrolysis cells. That's what F&P did, and that's what the majority of cold fusion researchers do. The question has always been what is the actual loading obtained under the steady state conditions. I've seen many papers on this, and no one is exactly sure. One reason is that gas loading studies show the pressure-loading relationship is highly non-linear in the .9-1.0 H/M region. We do have Pd resistivity ratio changes as a function of loading as determined via gas pressure loading experiments which allows us to use that ratio to derive the loading level. Generally speaking, the best _most_ researchers claim is a Pd loading of about 1 in H(or D)/M units, and .85 or greater is supposed to be required for CF to occur. Nominally you can get to the .6-.7 loading range fairly easily because that only requires up to about 100 atmospheres (1470 psia) at 120C. Getting higher with gas loading gets into the need for expensive high pressure apparati, and the people with the cash and interest to do that are somewhat limited. One nice thing about the A&Z work (not just the 56 pager, but the rest too) is that it does give a direct measure of pressure inside the cathode. Unfortunately, their device was not capable of going higher than 900 atm., and the data clearly shows the pressure still rising. In particular, note that they see the pressure increase in an empty cathode. That observation leads directly to the Gedanken experiment I wrote up (see below). The point of that was to illustrate that if you have an internal D2 pressure, you will load Pd particles just like gas loading experiments. No difference. Placing the particles in contact with the cathode walls only provides a second path for loading, which will only affect how fast the Pd black reaches equilibrium. There are several interfaces in the A&Z cathode. Some are: - electrolyte-cathode outer wall - cathode inner wall and internal gas space - cathode inner wall and point contacts with Pd black - Pd black particle surfaces and internal gas space Every interface also has a surface region that can show slightly different behavior as well. All-in-all a very complex situation. But, equilibrium will eventually be established across all of them, and they will all end up being driven by the electrolysis conditions (As an aside, A&Z in their 1994 paper in Proc. Jap. Acad. 70B claim the 'Spillover-effect' is actually D atoms migrating from the cathode to the Pd black particle _surface_ followed by rapid 'across-the- surface' D flow. So A&Z don't even consider bulk diffusion?? How would you measure that??) Now remember what an equilibrium is, the dynamically balanced case where the putative 'forward' reaction rate balances the 'reverse' reaction rate. So if we arbitrarily assume the Pd black is primarily loaded only through metal-to-metal D diffusion, the back reaction of D-D recombination at the Pd black surface followed by desorbtion will still populate the gas phase. For the A&Z claim to be correct there have to be two unlikely things occurring. First, there has to be a mechanism to pump up the Pd black preferentially. This is unlikely because there will be an equivalent backflow of D at the wall contact points once a uniform concentration gradient is established in the Pd particle. To get a higher loading in the Pd black, you would have to block that diffusion, and since there is no reason to assume that 'left-going' D travels a different type of path from 'right-going' D, blocking diffusion would simply stop or slow down _all_ traffic. Second, you would have to stop desorbtion of D2 gas from both the Pd cathode inner wall and the Pd black particles to shut down the equilibration via gas phase. (One 'trick' of the electrochemical loading method and CF research seems to be that impurities can accumulate on the cathode surface and block the D unloading reactions somehow, allowing the equilibrium to be shifted to higher net Pd loading.) In fact, the observation of pressure and pressure changes inside the DS cathode actually indicate that there is _NO_ significant blocking of the unloading mechanism. Thus the interior gas space, the cathode, and the Pd black will all be in equilibrium, and the cathode and Pd black will be equivalently loaded. To load Pd to .99 H/M at 25C requires about 12 kilobar (1 atm is 1.01325 bar, so 12 kbar is roughly 12,000 atm, or at 14.7 psi per atm, that's 176,400 psi, rounded up that's 180 kpsi). (That's all from gas loading experiments.) At 65C and the same pressure, you have driven some H2 out of the Pd and the loading is about .94 H/M. By creating a hollow cathode, A&Z have produced a unique pressure vessel. Their deformations, coupled with the simple concepts noted here, should warn everyone that they are dealing with serious potential for injury from catastrophic wall failure. I hope they (and anyone who replicates the work) are and will be quite careful! On other note. I noticed a Vortexian has referred to the well-know hysterisis effect in PCT work with Pd (and in fact most metal hydrides). However, this is not relevant to the A&Z case as by the time you have passed .7 H/M, the hysterisis is gone. In other words it is only a feature when the alpha-beta phase transition is occurring, and that happens between H/m values of ~0.05 to about 0.6 or so (depends on temp of course). The hysterisis is thought to arise because of nonidealities associated with the swelling/contracting mechanism when Pd loads/unloads. ------------------------------------------------------------------ A Gedanken Experiment --------------------- Take an A&Z DS cathode, empty. Place 1 Pd particle in a small glass test tube inside. Assemble and run the electrolysis. Question: What will happen to the Pd particle? Answer: The electrolysis will produce adsorbed D atoms on the outer cathode surface. The D atoms will absorb into the Pd. They will migrate to the inner surface. There they will go back onto the (inner) surface, where some will recombine, forming D2 gas. The D2 gas will travel into the test tube, finding the Pd particle. There, the D2 will adsorb and dissociate, forming surface D atoms. They will then absorb into the bulk of the particle. These processes will be accompanied by all the reverse reactions. Because of simple mass balance considerations, initially the migration "out" will not be as great as that "in", and the Pd cathode _and_ particle will slowly load up and finally achieve equilibrium with the internal gas pressure and external electrochemical driving force. Equilibrium is defined by perfectly balanced "in" and "out" mass transfer rates. Modified Gedanken Experiment ---------------------------- Ditch the test tube, and do it again. Question: What is the difference? Answer: Now you can have a second mass transfer pathway, where D in the cathode wall can directly migrate into the Pd particle through the point-to-point contacts of the Pd particle and cathode wall inner surface. This will change the rate at which equilibrium is established by adding a second way to load the particle. It will _not_ affect the final equilibrium. (Will it make any real difference? Your guess is as good as mine.) The Big Question ---------------- What has this to do with "cold fusion"? As far as I can see, nothing. It is just _another_ way to load Pd electrochemically. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 21:22:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11480; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:18:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:18:45 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Update 2nd Jan, 1998 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:17:04 +0000 Message-ID: <19980102051702.AAA14849 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"8SgLg1.0.Ip2.jY7hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >From our perspective, whether we are wondering if he is a fraud or has actually developed something of great significance (and are just relieved to hear anything), these devices have been surrounding the inventor for quite some time now and have become something less than earth shaking in his day to day existence. Maybe Greg is just taking care of business. He is a businessman, after all. I emphathize with some anxiousness you experience. This thing has really dragged on for a long time. Maybe we could write an existentialist drama entitled (with apologies to Sartre). "WAITING FOR SMOT". Greg has seen a number of claims of OU and other wonderful devices mired in controversy because replication is far from robust. Maybe it is as simple as wishing to satisfy his customers and avoid the heat and make lots of money and maybe make a substantial impact in the scientific world. All we can do is wait. Between this and various other questionable claims, my putative neural suspense receptors have become jaded, but I'm still watching closely. Best of luck with your BLP replication. >Greg may have some good reasons for this behavior...I just can't imagine >what they could be. > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 21:31:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13137; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:26:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:26:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AC6C86.6EA6 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 22:26:46 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Scott, Gleeson: re CG Na data References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mgpHI3.0.7D3.Ag7hq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: CG to Skeptics: WHERE Did the Na Go??? Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:29:00 -0600 From: Scott Little To: "Robert Bass" , "Rich Murray" , "Douglas Morrison" , "Dick Blue" , "Steven E. Jones" CC: "Stan Gleeson" At 23:55 12/30/97 -0800, Robert Bass wrote: >>>> Element BEFORE AFTER Na 8 0.5 Si 10 10 Mg 0 3 Ti 0 1.5 Ca 0 1.0 K 0 0.5 Zr 0 0.5 Query: WHERE did the Sodium go??? <<<< Bob, I admire your tenacity. It is rivaled only by your gullibility... Seriously, you have not presented sufficient evidence that the Na has in fact disappeared. You present a sketchy description of an experiment, little or no details of the analytical procedures employed and one thin little table of results that look anomalous. Without a doubt the most probable cause of the apparent anomaly is some kind of analytical error. It could be sampling problems, spectral interferences, etc. Second most probable is that the Na did indeed go somewhere in the cell (e.g. precipitation). Least probable is that the Na was transmuted into a different element. In order to perform this experiment rigorously and definitively, a number of runs must be performed to demonstrate repeatability, controls must be established to prove the analytical methods, and EVERYTHING in the cell must be analyzed before and after for Na. If the CG has already indulged in such a campaign then please share ALL the gory details and results with us! If they have not...then you simply do not have compelling evidence that anything unusual is happening in their cell. >>>> Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) Mr. Murray, this might help clairify. Best regards, Stan Gleeson -----Original Message----- From: Stan Gleeson To: Horace Heffner Cc: rbrtbass pahrump.com Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 10:22 AM Subject: Re: CG to Skeptics: WHERE Did the Na Go??? >Mr.. Heffner, this might help; it is part of a soon to be released statement >of protocol. >The procedure for recovering the 'after' sample was to scrape the interior >of the cell including both electrodes while still hot, using a 'sterile' >piece of SS. We then collected all of the liquid with solids in a Pyrex >dish, taking it to dryness at 200 F. When the sample was completely dry, we >used the SS instrument to gently homogenize the residue. A sample of about >10Cm2 of powder was then applied to a piece of carbon tape and placed on a >carbon disk in the S.E.M. >I was present at the time these test were being done. It was at a commercial >lab, and because we were one of their most frequent customers, the S.E.M. >operator would allow us some privileges, such as scanning the sample in 5 or >6 places to assure that the spectra printed was a very accurate accounting >of the elements present. I never sent the samples; I always took them and >observed the process. > Best regards, Stan Gleeson From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 22:42:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05072; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:38:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:38:00 -0800 Message-ID: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 00:36:12 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Weight Loss Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ocHZ12.0.4F1.7j8hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts & Howdy! Some of you might want to check out the attached site...here is part of what is on the page; Mach's Principle attempts to connect inertia with gravitation by suggesting that inertial mass comes from the long-range gravitational forces on a massive object from all the other masses in the universe (so that in an empty universe there would be no inertia). Mach said that inertial and gravitational mass must be the same because inertia is a gravitational effect. Albert Einstein liked Mach's Principle and used its implications to formulate his famous Equivalence Principle, a cornerstone of general relativity, which asserts that gravitational and inertial mass are indistinguishable. In a small isolated room it would be impossible, according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. The Equivalence Principle is now generally accepted in physics, but its underlying basis in Mach's Principle has never been properly understood or tested until now. Woodward may have accomplished this. He has formulated a nonlocal mathematical theory embodying Mach's Principle. Woodward's theory can be tested because it predicts a remarkable effect: if the mass-energy density of a system is made to change with time, the mass of the system should vary by an amount that is proportional to the second time derivative of the density change. For example, if a capacitor is charged positively and negatively by a voltage that varies as a 10 kHz sine wave and delivers a power of 100 watts to the capacitor, Woodward predicts that the mass of the capacitor should vary from its normal mass by about &plusmi;30 milligrams at a frequency of 20 kHz. ------------------------------ Woodward actually tested this and got a positive result, though very, very weak. Tha file also talks about the Dean Drive and the Tampere experiment. Full document at; http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw83.html Seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 1 22:49:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07029; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:46:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:46:51 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801020646.AAA15656 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Weight Loss In-Reply-To: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> from Jerry at "Jan 2, 98 00:36:12 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:46:39 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cAR2T3.0.Yj1.Pr8hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > Albert Einstein liked Mach's Principle and used its > implications to formulate his famous Equivalence Principle, a cornerstone > of general relativity, which asserts that gravitational and inertial mass > are indistinguishable. In a small isolated room it would be impossible, > according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements > whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational > field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. That "small room" would have to be infinitely small, since in the vertical direction, gravity declines with distance whereas the inertial force remains constant, while in the horizontal direction gravity changes its vector direction whereas the inertial force vectors are all parallel. However, the gravitation force and the inertial force are both dependent upon mass, obviously. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 00:11:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03205; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:08:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:08:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102160656.0072ea78 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 16:06:56 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Equivalence Principle In-Reply-To: <199801020646.AAA15656 mirage.skypoint.com> References: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hvz_Q2.0.zn.d1Ahq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: >> ...Equivalence Principle, a cornerstone >> of general relativity, which asserts that gravitational and inertial mass >> are indistinguishable. In a small isolated room it would be impossible, >> according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements >> whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational >> field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. > >That "small room" would have to be infinitely small, Mathematically maybe, but I think that a "g" field can be made essentially constant such that any variation cannot be measured with available technology within quite a reasonable volume. >since in the vertical direction, gravity declines with distance ... It doesn't have to be so. Consider the following distribution of masses "0" and the vertical dotted line ":" : : 0 : 0 Directly between the masses there is no vertical component of gravity (there is no horizontal component anywhere along the dotted line). As we move upwards, the vertical component (pulling downwards) begins to *increase*. At a certain height this vertical component must begin to decrease again. Thus somewhere along the dotted line there is a turning point at which the vertical component of gravity remains constant with a small change in height. With more distributed masses (maybe a semicircle of them?) this vertical component could be made much more constant with height. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 00:31:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18468; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:27:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:27:52 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:30:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"VLg2b3.0.OW4.6KAhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:36 AM 1/2/98, Jerry quoted: >In a small isolated room it would be impossible, >according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements >whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational >field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. It is not true that you can not tell the difference. Gravity exerts tidal effects. In a gravitational field there is a difference in force between the top of the elevator and the bottom, and an object in the gravitational field will be deformed by this tidal effect. I don't think this affects the validity of GR because the Equivalence Priciple only applies at dimensionless points. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 01:14:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07575; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:09:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:09:02 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:08:23 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Weight Loss Resent-Message-ID: <"DzrJZ1.0.2s1.fwAhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry - > In a small isolated room it would be > impossible, according to the Equivalence > Principle, to tell from local measurements > whether the room was on the surface of the > Earth in a 1 g gravitational field or in a > rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through > gravity-free space. Actually as a practical matter, you *can* always tell. Divergence. Acceleration doesn't have it, 'real' g-fields from mass do. But I know what he meant anyway. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 02:00:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28250; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:57:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:57:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102175646.0072a44c cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 17:56:46 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980102160656.0072ea78 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: <199801020646.AAA15656 mirage.skypoint.com> <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LSN78.0.Dv6.ldBhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry quoted: >>In a small isolated room it would be impossible, >>according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements >>whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational >>field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. Horace Heffner wrote: >It is not true that you can not tell the difference. Gravity exerts tidal >effects. In a gravitational field there is a difference in force between >the top of the elevator and the bottom ... Rick Monteverde wrote: >Actually as a practical matter, you *can* always tell. Divergence. >Acceleration doesn't have it, 'real' g-fields from mass do. But I know what >he meant anyway. Why does everybody think this? I don't think it need be so. Here is my recent reply to John Logajan's post: John Winterflood wrote: >John Logajan wrote: >>..since in the vertical direction, gravity declines with distance.. > >It doesn't have to be so. Consider the following distribution of >masses "0" and the vertical dotted line ":" > > : > : >0 : 0 > >Directly between the masses there is no vertical component of >gravity (there is no horizontal component anywhere along the >dotted line). As we move upwards, the vertical component (pulling >downwards) begins to *increase*. At a certain height this vertical >component must begin to decrease again. Thus somewhere along the >dotted line there is a turning point at which the vertical >component of gravity remains constant with a small change in >height. > >With more distributed masses (maybe a semicircle of them?) this >vertical component could be made much more constant with height. A direct result of this is that if you are in a valley between two mountains, then "g" may well get stronger as you take an elevator up to higher floors! Consider that a spherical shell of matter results in no gravitational field at all for the entire volume contained within the shell. This was proved by Newton in the 1600s and discussed here recently. Now I strongly suspect that there may be a distribution of mass which could produce a similar constant but non-zero gravitational field for the entire contained volume. I know from trying to obtain constant magnetic fields that if it exists, the shape is likely to be spherical (a fine coil wound on a sphere produces a perfectly constant magnetic field inside the entire volume if I remember correctly - probably any ellipsoidal shape would do because an infinitely long solenoid has a constant field also). So I would guess that supposing you started with a sphere of mass, and then removed a smaller sphere of that mass from the interior of the first sphere, but *offset to one side*. Then for the entire volume of the empty sphere, the gravitational field would be perfectly constant and unidirectional - impossible to pick from an accelerating frame even mathematically! (This is just a guess mind you - maybe we need negative mass or something like that to do the job). In fact as I write this I strongly suspect that Newton probably worked out and proved exactly how it could be done in his "Principia" some 350years ago. Just that we are all so dreadfully ignorant of just what heights these ancient guys actually attained to way back then! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 02:08:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29150; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:07:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:07:42 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:08:01 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"upO2R2.0.O77.inBhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts - Does anyone remember any details of Chris' capacitor self-charging experiments? I think he had three caps in a metal pot with their leads snipped off. As I recall when he had them all in the same orientation, over time they accumulated about the same charge. But when he had them in different orientations, he got a different voltage on each of them - thereby supposedly upsetting any challenge that it's just temperature or any other conventiuonal scalar effect (barometric pressure, humidity, etc.). I've been running the experiment over the holidays. I used three 4700uF 35v electrolytic caps in a grounded steel toolbox. Orientations were first all parallel, then East/West, SE/NW, and N/S, then last a run with them vertical, 45 deg, and horizontal along a NS line. Reads were made on half hour to hour (somewhat irregular) intervals with a Radio Shack dvm reading to the tenth of a millivolt across a 10meg resistor. Rate-of-change info was then graphed in Excel. Correlation to the sky was done by eyeballing the sky graphics generated by Starry Night against the curves in Excel. The orientation with the up-ended caps seemed to yield the strongest reads of the daily curves. But in all cases, the charge rate changes ran together rather well with no real important-looking diversions. So I can't say I saw exactly what I think Chris said he saw, but what I did see so far has me totally fascinated. The curves are strong, unique, and apparently do correspond to the sun, moon, and galaxy crossing the meridian. TTB did a long run right here in Honolulu in the 70's with an insulated faraday shielded oven of some sort with a >0.1 degree drift and saw the same kind of daily curves. It's not just the weather, whatever it is. I've read the Hodowanec file at: http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/gravity/grav3.asc ...and wouldn't have believed any of it if I hadn't seen for myself firsthand what appears to be the correlation between charge rate and celestial objects passing the meridian. Both Townsend Brown and Hodowanec agree that the galactic center seems to be the source of some of the waves they recorded in their capacitor experiments. Although that's basically what I saw too, I'd still like to see drop-dead statistical correlations from automatic recording equipment and amplified readings from a Hodowanec type detector before I dive headlong into the desktop radio-astronomy/alien-contact business. I'd like to offer my thanks again to our friend Chris Tinsley for taking notice of yet another intriguing and possibly important phenomena. I wish he were here so I could tell him about this. Of course he'd have probably responded by telling me that I'm most likely full of sh*t, and then have prescribed a certain British ale as a tonic for that sort of thing. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 02:47:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA31124; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:36:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:36:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102183634.0072ab48 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 18:36:34 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980102175646.0072a44c cyllene.uwa.edu.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980102160656.0072ea78 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <199801020646.AAA15656 mirage.skypoint.com> <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Z00A52.0.Ec7.0DChq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: >So I would guess that supposing you started with a sphere >of mass, and then removed a smaller sphere of that mass from >the interior of the first sphere, but *offset to one side*. >Then for the entire volume of the empty sphere, the >gravitational field would be perfectly constant and >unidirectional - impossible to pick from an accelerating >frame even mathematically! (This is just a guess mind >you - maybe we need negative mass or something like that >to do the job). Just had a better idea:- Supposing you had a spherical shell (any reasonable and constant thickness) of matter and caused its density to vary linearly dependent on displacement along a chosen axis (ie by mixing varying proportions of uranium and aluminium for arguments sake), then it seems to me that it would be a better contender for giving a constant gravitational field within the contained volume. Anyone feel like doing the simple integration math required to check this? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 02:49:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA32517; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:48:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:48:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Relativistic Beams and Gravitational Forces Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:45:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd176b$84a83e80$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"hyPB-3.0.zx7.2OChq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex There is a striking similarity between the strength of the gravitational force between particles, quarks, leptons, etc., and the proposed gravitational force ("magnetic")between ALL particles in the Universe.Assuming that they are free to always align to attract. Seems that the Lorentz force vanishes,thus the "loop currents" of the particles due to q*f or q/t circling very close to c falls off. For instance the "loop current" in an electron according to q/t or q*f is about 20 amperes and there should be a force of: 1.0E-7 * (3.5E-13 ampere-meters)^2 = 1.23E-32 newtons (attractive or repulsive) between two electrons at one meter separation. However, The gravitational force Fg = G*(me)^2 is 5.523E-71 newtons indicating that the relativistic dilation (gamma) (1 - v^2/c^2)^-1/2 is reducing the force; (1.23E-32/5.523E-71)^1/2 indicating a gamma-force reduction of 1.5E19 reducing the effective "loop current" q/t or q*f, from 20 amperes to 20/1.5E19 = 1.34E-18 amperes thus reducing the gravitational ("magnetic")force accordingly. F = q(E + v x B) = 0 E = -v x B where E is the electric field strength an B is the magnetic component. E'y = q/y'^2 where y' is the separation of the charges moving in a relativistic beam. Ey = E'y/(1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 Bx = - v^2/c^2*E'y/(1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 ( y' = y) Fy = q(Ey + vBx) qEy(1 - v^2/c^2) = qE'y(1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 "The force is thus reduced by a factor 1 - (v^2/c^2) compared with the electric force alone, and by a factor [1 - (v^2/c^2)]^1/2 compared with the electric force which exists when the particles are at rest." The surprising convergence of relativistic particle beams shows this to be so and tends to explain why "ordinary" currents cannot couple to gravitational "currents" very well. Now if I could understand all of this. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 03:12:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00490; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:02:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:02:36 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1328383555==_============" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:02:08 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"LTxpx3.0.V7.CbChq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: --============_-1328383555==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's a GIF of the average charge rate of the three capacitors over Dec. 31, 1997. They were in the steel box with one standing up on end, one at 45 degrees, and one horizontal, all along a north-south line. The graph is an average of all three. Sagittarius and the galactic center passes over in the late morning, and the moon passed the meridian here at around 2:30pm or so. I can't tell if the moon is the dip, the peak, or has nothing to do with any of this, but it was in the area. The dip is about when it passed the meridian. The peak wasn't there like that the day before, but I had the caps in a different orientation. I need much better resolution. Fun, though. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI --============_-1328383555==_============ Content-Type: image/gif; name="123197.GIF" ; x-mac-type="47494666" ; x-mac-creator="474B4F4E" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="123197.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhzAEkAfcAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f3 9/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39/f39+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v 7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v7+/v794IAN4IAN4IAN4I AN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAN4IAL29vb29 vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29vb29 vb29vYSEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISEhISE hISEhISEhISEhHt7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7 e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e3t7e2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tr a2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2tra2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2Nj 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Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 04:18:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1770$27a458e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ih6CZ2.0.f_.dtChq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Vortex-L Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 3:12 AM Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments >Gnorts - > >Does anyone remember any details of Chris' capacitor self-charging >experiments? I think he had three caps in a metal pot with their leads >snipped off. As I recall when he had them all in the same orientation, over >time they accumulated about the same charge. But when he had them in >different orientations, he got a different voltage on each of them - >thereby supposedly upsetting any challenge that it's just temperature or >any other conventiuonal scalar effect (barometric pressure, humidity, etc.). Hi Rick There is an auto-alignment effect where the polar molecules will spontaneously align. If you dip a ceramic disc capacitor around a nanofarad with the leads coated with nail polish into a cup of water you will see this effect. makes a great hydrophone too. A similar mechanism occurs in the inner ear (cochlear membranes) and can actually demodulate electromagnetic signals into incoherent "white noise" causing lots of folks to think they have tinnitus or are going crackers. > >I've been running the experiment over the holidays. I used three 4700uF 35v >electrolytic caps in a grounded steel toolbox. Orientations were first all >parallel, then East/West, SE/NW, and N/S, then last a run with them >vertical, 45 deg, and horizontal along a NS line. Reads were made on half >hour to hour (somewhat irregular) intervals with a Radio Shack dvm reading >to the tenth of a millivolt across a 10meg resistor. Rate-of-change info >was then graphed in Excel. Correlation to the sky was done by eyeballing >the sky graphics generated by Starry Night against the curves in Excel. The >orientation with the up-ended caps seemed to yield the strongest reads of >the daily curves. But in all cases, the charge rate changes ran together >rather well with no real important-looking diversions. So I can't say I saw >exactly what I think Chris said he saw, but what I did see so far has me >totally fascinated. The curves are strong, unique, and apparently do >correspond to the sun, moon, and galaxy crossing the meridian. TTB did a >long run right here in Honolulu in the 70's with an insulated faraday >shielded oven of some sort with a >0.1 degree drift and saw the same kind >of daily curves. It's not just the weather, whatever it is. Fascinating! Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. :-) Regards, Frederick > >I've read the Hodowanec file at: > >http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/gravity/grav3.asc > >...and wouldn't have believed any of it if I hadn't seen for myself >firsthand what appears to be the correlation between charge rate and >celestial objects passing the meridian. Both Townsend Brown and Hodowanec >agree that the galactic center seems to be the source of some of the waves >they recorded in their capacitor experiments. Although that's basically >what I saw too, I'd still like to see drop-dead statistical correlations >from automatic recording equipment and amplified readings from a Hodowanec >type detector before I dive headlong into the desktop >radio-astronomy/alien-contact business. > >I'd like to offer my thanks again to our friend Chris Tinsley for taking >notice of yet another intriguing and possibly important phenomena. I wish >he were here so I could tell him about this. Of course he'd have probably >responded by telling me that I'm most likely full of sh*t, and then have >prescribed a certain British ale as a tonic for that sort of thing. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 03:44:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA04918; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:37:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:37:19 -0800 X-ROUTED: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:33:06 -0500 Message-ID: <34ACD167.825890A4 southconn.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 06:37:11 -0500 From: steve/paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: monteverde worldnet.att.net Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------31E6853488B11E9CD8F510CB" Resent-Message-ID: <"gAu9w1.0.mC1.j5Dhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------31E6853488B11E9CD8F510CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris - a possibility is that the peaks are coinciding with the center of the universe....need to move the experiment to another location and use the following url to compare it to....steve http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/sidereal.html --------------31E6853488B11E9CD8F510CB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="sidereal.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sidereal.html" Content-Base: "http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/sidereal.ht ml" Local Apparent Sideral Time

Compute Local Apparent Sidereal Time


Sidereal time is the hour angle of the vernal equinox, the ascending node of the ecliptic on the celestial equator. The daily motion of this point provides a measure of the rotation of the Earth with respect to the stars, rather than the Sun. Local mean sidereal time is computed from the current Greenwich Mean Sideral Time plus an input offset in longitude (converted to a sidereal offset by the ratio 1.00273790935 of the mean solar day to the mean sidereal day.) Applying the equation of equinoxes, or nutation of the mean pole of the Earth from mean to true position, yields local apparent sidereal time. Astronomers use local sidereal time because it corresponds to the coordinate right ascension of a celestial body that is presently on the local meridian.

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Back to Time Service Home Page Time Service Dept., U.S. Naval Observatory, Washington, DC --------------31E6853488B11E9CD8F510CB-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 04:10:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06914; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 04:07:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 04:07:25 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34ACC883.6376E661 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 05:59:15 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. References: <01bd16ea$122031a0$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lk_fg.0.yh1.yXDhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: ... The presence of matter-matter fields modifies C, that is why the photons coming from the sun are "Red Shifted". The Mossbaur Effect was used to measure this Red Shift effect on the Earth also. Jack Smith wrote: ... Is sunlight incident to Jupiter red-shifted the same, more, or less than sunlight hitting Earth?" Frederick J. Sparber wrote: ... "Jupiter has a mass of 2E27 kg and a radius of 7.14E7 meters. o*= -GM/R^2 ie, (o* = -0.26) c will vary accordingly. Going by this the Red Shift is most pronounced in small massive Stars or "Black Holes". :-)" Hi Frederick, Does this apply to the sunlight coming in to Jupiter or to the sunlight reflected from Jupiter? I'm probably asking the wrong question. Since R in o* = -GM/R^2 is the radius of the celestial body, not the distance between celestial bodies, it would seem that the sunlight coming in to Jupiter should be red-shifted by the same amount as sunlight coming in to Earth. Or am I still confused? I suppose we need solar spectrum data from some of the probes that came close to Jupiter. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 04:58:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20061; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 04:55:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 04:55:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:50:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd177d$097d4f40$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"BspuN2.0.Mv4.rEEhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Taylor J. Smith To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 5:07 AM Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: ... > > The presence of matter-matter fields modifies C, > that is why the photons coming from the sun are > "Red Shifted". The Mossbaur Effect was used > to measure this Red Shift effect on the Earth also. > > Jack Smith wrote: ... > > Is sunlight incident to Jupiter red-shifted the > same, more, or less than sunlight hitting Earth?" > > Frederick J. Sparber wrote: ... > > "Jupiter has a mass of 2E27 kg and a radius of > 7.14E7 meters. o*= -GM/R^2 ie, (o* = -0.26) > c will vary accordingly. Going by this the > Red Shift is most pronounced in small massive > Stars or "Black Holes". :-)" > > Hi Frederick, > > Does this apply to the sunlight coming in to > Jupiter or to the sunlight reflected from > Jupiter? The photons "created" on the Sun have less energy by 2 parts per million than photons created where the speed of light is not reduced. If the solar photons are reflected from Jupiter they should show the same Red Shift.This is a bit tricky because the initial solar photons could lose energy if the reflections are not totally elastic. > > I'm probably asking the wrong question. Since > R in o* = -GM/R^2 is the radius of the celestial > body, not the distance between celestial bodies, > it would seem that the sunlight coming in to > Jupiter should be red-shifted by the same amount > as sunlight coming in to Earth. Or am I still > confused? You have it right. The sunlight coming in to Jupiter will be red-shifted the same as those comning in to Earth. The shifting occurs in the gravity S.O.L. environment as the photons are formed. On the other hand, their velocity corresponds to the local S.O.L.,which means that if they are swallowed by a Black Hole their wavelength lambda' = c'/f should decrease too. And since energy w = hc'/lambda' their energy should stay the same. I think. :-) I suppose we need solar spectrum > data from some of the probes that came close > to Jupiter. Regular telescopes tied to spectrum analyzers should be able to discern between reflected solar photons and the Jovian photons that have about three orders of magnitude difference in red-shift. Regards, Frederick > > Jack Smith > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 05:40:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA17641; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:36:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:36:14 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102083523.00710eb4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 08:35:23 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: COLD FUSION TIMES Vol.6, number 1 is out Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Fwazu.0.ZJ4.DrEhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan 2, '98 The latest issue of the COLD FUSION TIMES -- [ Vol 6 number 1 (Winter 98)] is out this morning. A brief survey of this issue (Vol 6, Number 1) includes the following: -Increasing details regarding the location, and the nature of, the anomalous heat generated by cold fusion - Focus upon the Thermal and Nuclear Events Associated Cold Fusion - More on Codeposition, and other advanced systems - A summary review and excerpts of selected papers from the 32nd INTERNATIONAL ENERGY TECHNOLOGY CONFERENCE [IECEC 1997] - Part II - Japanese cold fusion Muon-powered Airplane - Tribute to Cold Fusioneer Chris Tinsley - Reviews of the "Cold Fusion" Phenomena - Biphasic Behavior in Thermal Electrolytic Generators - Impact of, and results from, Nickel,Titanium, Palladium, and Gold Electrodes - Bypass of Acoustic Shock in Engineering Systems - Additional info on Cold Fusion Theory, Calorimetry, and Electrochemistry - Analysis of Japanese New Hydrogen Energy Program - U.S. Funds High Energy Physics outside of the US - The new COLD FUSION TIMES' Group VIII Metal Price Listings including a two decade analysis - Discussion of other cross-fertilized fusion systems - More analyses of NHE Program - More Isotopic Anomalies - The best of the worlds literature in hand - Gas Loading, Solid State, Electrolysis Systems - More journals articles you may have missed, including a new column on Japanese literature - Practical Information and Reference Vectors, including - Engineering and Research Updates - ESD, EMI Issues - Updates on Equipment, Supplies, Consulting Available - "What's Happening", "Material Science and Engineering" and more As always, the COLD FUSION TIMES ISSN#1072-2874 http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html attempts to focus on hard-core science, nuclear, and engineering issues, with detailed material science and nuclear physics analyses, and surveys of the present developments in the cold fusion field. The cover page, with a few of the stories, is available at the COLD FUSION TIMES web site. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 06:25:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22945; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:18:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:18:39 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102081839.00a35458 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 08:18:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Weight Loss In-Reply-To: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Jh8hn3.0.Mc5.-SFhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 00:36 1/2/98 -0800, Jerry wrote: >Woodward predicts that the mass of the capacitor should vary from its normal >mass by about &plusmi;30 milligrams.... I've studied this Woodward stuff and there's only one big problem: Let's take a typical energy storage capacitor for example. I've got one that's 2 mfd at 10kV. Using E=1/2CV^2 we find that it holds 100 joules when charged. Using E=mc^2, I calculate that the mass of that capacitor will increase by only 1.1 picograms when it's charged. I guess Woodward is just using a capacitor that is 2.7E10 bigger than mine if he's getting 30 milligrams of mass change. hmmm! my capacitor occupies a volume of about 5 liters...at the same energy density Woodward's would have to be a cube about 510 meters on a side! How'd he arrive at +/- 30 milligrams of mass change!? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 06:31:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24759; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:30:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:30:00 -0800 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:22:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801021422.IAA01649 dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: Re: Expert on Arata spillover effect To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"1kvHE1.0.m26.ddFhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 2, 1998 You wrote: >An expert, skilled in the art, comments: An artist, too bashful to identify his own work? Surely not a scientist since he (or she) has, first off, jumped to a conclusion. Nice explanation of what the expert artist draws what goes on in A&Z's DS-cathode. Evidently whatever equilibrium condition that was reached within the DS-Cathode, it was sufficuent to create a fusion reaction where unambigous excess heat and nuclear ash of helium has been found. The process and confirmation has been witnessed by Russ George in Osaka a little while back. He went there at Arata's invite. Arata was interested in Russ's work of sonofusion. > As far as I can see, nothing. It is just _another_ way to load >Pd electrochemically. Lets find out why it works rather than go in denial. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 07:01:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28162; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:58:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:58:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102095727.006a3a60 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 09:57:27 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Expert on Arata spillover effect In-Reply-To: <199801021422.IAA01649 dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8_kxz3.0.yt6.92Ghq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:22 AM 1/2/98 -0600, Akira wrote: >(R. Murray)wrote: "An expert, skilled in the art, comments:" > >"An artist, too bashful to identify his own work? Surely not a scientist >since he (or she) has, first off, jumped to a conclusion. > ... >Lets find out why it works rather than go in denial." > Good points, Akira. Also, unfortunately the poster continues to mix purported quotes (posted without quotes) and his own comments so that readers will not have total clarity as to their origin. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 07:19:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03921; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:13:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:13:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980102101144.007c3c80 post.queensu.ca> X-Sender: simonb post.queensu.ca (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 10:11:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bart Simon Subject: Asti Report Cc: msimnad ames.ucsd.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id HAA03884 Resent-Message-ID: <"UP1Zj.0.Az.ZGGhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Happy New Year, A number of you have asked about the Asti workshop. I know reviews will be published in IE but I thought I would try to give a basic summary of what went on. I'm not sure how well I can answer any questions, but perhaps Peter Glueck and J-P Biberian will be able to help out. The long and the short of it is that there should be many more workshops like the one in Asti, and as always the best stuff happened between the presentations. cheers, Bart Simon (simonb post.queensu.ca) Queen's University ------------------ Report on the Asti Workshop (Nov 27-29, 1997) "Fusione Fredda e Tartufo" By Bart Simon, Queen's University (12/12/97. Revised 12/20/97) ------------------- The following is a report based on the author's observations and discussions at Asti. Many thanks to Antonietta Rizzo for her patience in translating Italian for me during the workshop and to Peter Glueck, Bill Collis and J-P Biberian for comments on my draft report. Any technical errors and other mistakes contained within are solely the responsibility of the author who is but a sociologist - mea culpa! Comments may be directed to simonb post.queensu.ca. ------------------- General Observations Forgive me, but some of you know I have an intellectual obsession with the scientific undead. The scene at Asti was positively gothic. I note the large empty aging Villa on top of a hill in an old medieval town, the ceaselessly dark and gloomy sky, the endless drizzle and fog. How could one not expect great things from a place like this? Bill Collis, the workshop organizer, did a fantastic job. Despite some late advertising, some 60 or so participants attended the 3rd Asti workshop on cold fusion - "Fusione Fredda e Tartufo." Slightly more than half the attendees were Italian CF researchers (Celani, Bressani, Premuda, Piantelli, Preparata, Veronesi, Scaramuzzi etc..). Fleischmann was there, as was Vigier, Biberian, and Dufour. Asami and Kamimura came from the NHE lab, and McKubre and Miley rounded out the U.S. contingent. A fairly complete list of attendee's can be found on the workshop web page (http://www.netcity.it/coldfusion/) The conference was organized over three intensive days. Thursday morning (Nov 27/97) started early with papers from Asami, Miley and Celani. After lunch there were papers by Veronesi (works with Focardi and Piantelli on the Bologna-Sienna collaboration), Iazzi (works with Bressani in Turin) and Kamimura. Somewhere in there we had a coffee break and just before dinner there was a round-table session meant for discussing what kind of presentation to make to the Italian media. In between all these papers were a series of three course meals, copious amounts of wine and all the cold fusion conversation you could handle. Friday (our day off?) began in the town of Asti with a press conference. The events were in Italian so all I can say is that Bill Collis gave a short speech followed by longer controversial talks by Giuliano Preparata and Christos Stremmenos (Bologna). Francesco Celani was presented with the coveted "truffle prize" which was a giant white truffle that we could smell 10 rows back from the podium. The Cincy group was also on hand, and made a short public announcement. I'm not quite sure what the fallout from the press conference was but since there was not a single question from the floor I don't expect much. No matter, selling cold fusion to the press was not the purpose of this workshop (indeed there may be a need for a separate workshop on just that topic and on the topic of the self-representation). We adjourned to the Ristorante Reale and proceeded to scarf down a 15 course lunch (finally tasted white truffles…not bad at all). The day proceeded in a similar spirit, a trip to the Contratto winery where we witnessed some great baiting of the tour-guide from Jean-Paul Biberian over the wine's status as champagne-like. Saturday picked up where we left off on Thursday with papers from Dufour, Bill Collis, Peter Glueck, Giuliano Mengoli (from Padua I think), Biberian, Vigier, Antonio Spallone (works with Celani), Francesco Premuda (Bologna), McKubre and Vittorio Violante (works at Frascati I think). Overall there were no real bombshells, but the workshop was productive if only in terms of satisfying the need for communication. I witnessed lots of worthy technical exchanges and agreements to collaborate. I gather that the various Italian groups don't maintain such tight links so the workshop was no doubt helpful for them. Almost all the Italian groups, by the way, are suffering from the bad press and a decline of research support. The mood was not encouraging on this score. In general I think people were impressed with the level of technical/experimental competence and the increase in practical knowledge of materials, calorimetry and other elements of experimental protocol, but the mood was sour about the lack of some kind of result that could bring CF work back into the mainstream. My read on this is something of a sense of impatience and frustration even given scientists' enculturated tendency to take on a long term perspective (except for the French researchers who seemed pretty happy really). One thing I wonder is whether problems in the reproducibility of CF may be reducible to problems in preventing the sudden deloading of H/D, at least in the wet electrolysis systems. I couldn't get a clear answer from anyone on this, but it seems to be the general preoccupation of most of the talks. Would a massive systematic effort to solve the deloading problem bring CF in from the cold? This seems to be McKubre's view, but it could be countered by another view (championed by Peter Glueck for instance) that CF researchers should simply abandon systems where this "deloading thing" becomes such an issue because there are other systems that already work better. There was an attempt to talk about the possibility of some more integrated synthetic research effort perhaps orchestrated through the formation of an international society of some kind but this discussion didn't get very far - I imagine it will come up again in Vancouver. I have plenty of sociological observations to make, but I will avoid this so I can try to produce a better sense of what was discussed. I will do my best to summarize the basic points of the papers in brief synopses below. ***** Naoto Asami (NHE) - "On the Material Behavior of Highly Deuterated Palladium" Asami reported an extensive series of experiments looking at the various material properties of the cathodes (grain size, surface treatments, prep. Techniques etc..) and their effects on loading. A major point seemed to be the problem of lattice deformation during electrolysis (a point McKubre focused on) and there is a need to reduce the effects of lattice deformation in order to achieved higher loading ratios. I gather there is not too much that is new about this (I remember these discussions in Maui) except that I get the sense that the NHE crowd has accumulated a lot of amazingly useful data on this loading question. I just wonder, like many others, about the extent to which high loading is necessarily tied to the production of excess heat. Asami did not report the measurement of excess heat using their new flow calorimetry set-up (and this leads into the controversy over the proper calorimetric system but this was not discussed). ****** George Miley (Illinois) - "Transmutation Studies Using Thin Film Electrolysis" Miley started with a background on investigations in the phenomena of LENR (low energy nuclear reactions). I didn't notice a whole lot of new data, but Miley is taking the problem of impurities very seriously and I am pretty much convinced that LENR observations are moving into the mainstream of cold fusion thinking forcing the conventional Pd-D electrolysis types to take notice. Miley listed a number of observations that need to be accounted for: Relatively large rates of reaction, the appearance of 4 distinct mass zones, the lack of energetic radiation, the lack of isotope trends, and the uniqueness of the thin film coatings for producing a significant result. Miley, as many of you know, proposes a model for what is going on. This is beyond me, but one important feature of the model is the implication of a high degree of predictability for the kinds of fission reactions taking place. On this score, Bill Collis offered to "run the numbers" to see if he could specify exactly what kinds of stuff Miley should be observing at the end of the day. Some predictability would be nice I gather, because at the moment it seems as if lots of surprises are turning up in these LENR reactions (especially with the Cincy cell). ****** Francesco Celani (Frascati) - "The Effect of Gamma-Beta phase Interface on (H/D) Overloading Ok, I had a hard time following main point of this paper. Celani uses thin wire Pd in a high power pulsed electrolysis rig. The main claim to fame here is huge XS-heat using high voltage and the big focus is on reproducibility and the issue of electromigration. I learned some more about how the PD wire loads unevenly and it seems that the uneven loading sets up a fine dynamic balance which allows for the production of XS-heat at high voltages without too much loss of Deuterium (which would kill the reaction). A central feature of this discussion is the relationship between the beta phase and gamma phase of the metal - how to get high loading without diffusion (and I must remember that there is no consensus on the actual existence of this gamma phase). ***** Stefano Veronesi (Siena) - "Study of the Ni-H System at 600-800K" A Ni-H gas loading set-up. Calculates XS-power in the range of 20-60 watts. One graph shows a temperature increase during an input power decrease (this is always a good sign). But the big news is neutrons detected from gammas using gold activation - looks like a few thousand neutrons/sec and also a very clear gamma peak. The emission is not constant but occurs in bursts and some sustained low activity. I gather the gamma peak appears during the early stages of the experiment - ostensibly in the loading phase - in any case there is no evidence of XS-power when the peak appears. As I understand it though, the same experiment produced the peak and then the XS-power. Apparently there is also some evidence of transmutations but I missed the specifics on this. I gather reproducibility is an issue here for people. Dufour, for one, was not too happy with the calorimetry. People were impressed with the gamma peak, and a few people were agreeing that this kind of clear nuclear signal is what cold fusion research needs right now. **** Felice Iazzi (Turin) - 'Techniques for Loading and Controlling the Deuterium Palladium Atomic Ratio I thought this was nifty experiment (if it helps McKubre thought so too). Again the electromigration issue comes up and to stave off diffusion the Turin group gold plates the ends of the Pd cathodes and report 1996 loadings of .8 or so along with He-4 (in one experiment). They were apparently already to start a new spiffy set of experiments when their funding from Fiat got axed. An important protocol item is that electrolysis at high currents is a good thing but the current must be increased slowly to avoid the deloading problem. ***** Hiroshi Kamimura (NHE) - "Excess Heat Measurement by Fuel Cell Type Electrolysis" Kamimura ran though the history of some of the NHE electrolysis experiments. As everyone now knows they haven't been too successful on the XS-heat front. The crucial point of this talk however was to present the weirdness associated with the fact that XS-heat that appeared reproducibly (in 1996 40% of cells had XS around 15%) in their old isothermal calorimeters disappeared in their newer flow calorimeters. I would have guessed that this would suggest that the NHE XS was an artifact of the early calorimetry but people took this as real weirdness which might question the suitability of flow calorimetry in certain cell designs (McKubre especially seemed to take this seriously). **** Jacques Dufour (Shell) - "Effect of Hydrex on a Photo-Electric Cell" I am a Dufour fan but these latest sets of experiments were extremely hard for me to grasp. Dufour, unlike most, has increased funding from Shell (an oil company!!!) to expand his research program. Dufour is clearly trying to design new experiments in accordance with a theoretical model following the Vigier-Mills route (i.e. the shrunken H atom). Dufour's own speculation concerns the existence of a hydrex/deutex state under the influence of a strong magnetic field. The new experiments make use of photovoltaic cells as XS energy detectors and this, very sadly, is the limit of my ability to understand what is going on. ***** William Collis (Bologna) - "Cold Fusion or Cold Fission?" Collis' talk started by pushing the theoretical possibility of fission reactions in cold fusion systems sparked by the LENR results. Collis' thinking draws on the ideas of Kucherov and Hagelstein. He suggests that any theory/explanation needs to account for the following observations: very few gammas, few x-rays, He, transmutations of heavy elements, similar levels of XS-heat in H and D systems, tritium and neutrons in H systems, no 14.1 MeV neutrons, Deuterium does not fuel the reaction, H istopes are a common factor, technical grade materials work better than pure materials (McKubre especially makes this point). Perhaps the major contentious point here is the idea that H and D are not the fuel in CF reactions (since people are seeing XS heat in the absence of much H and D these days, cf. Piantelli). Collis went on to discuss the kinds of nuclear reactions researchers should be looking for and the possibility of basing new experiments on theoretical predictions. ***** Peter Glueck (Romania) - "The Reproducibility Problem in Cold Fusion" Glueck presented a chart schematizing the various experimental approaches to the production of CF phenomenona and proceeded to point out that in relation to a number of the more commericalized ventures (CETI cell, Griggs device, sonofusion, Cincy cell etc…) the conventional Pd-D electrolysis route amounts to barking up the wrong tree (or beating a dead horse… whatever). For me, Glueck highlighted a kind of continuing entrenchment of the Fleischmann-Pons exemplar within the CF community, but there is mounting pressure to change the approach especially given the demise of the NHE program (at the very least gas-loading is proving to be a more reliable method but for Glueck this is the tip of the iceberg). I think people in the audience were basically agreeing with this, but that the kinds of experiments Glueck is in favour of are hard to integrate into the existing research programs of many of these university-based folks. A key exception perhaps is Jean-Paul Biberian's project which does involve testing these other promising approaches where he can. ***** Giuliano Mengoli (Padua) - "The Nickle-K2CO3 System: An Electrochemical and Calorimetric Investigation I found this talk very hard to follow and understand but if it is any help Fleischmann was extremely impressed. Mengoli is working with Ni-H systems and is also interested in the relationship of materials properties and H loading. ***** Jean Paul Biberian (Grenoble) - "Cold Fusion Results Obtained in Grenoble, France" Biberian announced the major good news of the conference. The French government is now officially supporting CF research at Grenoble (talk about a reversal of fortune). The Grenoble group looks to be in good shape for at least the next three years. Biberian discussed results of the FP-cell replications as well as their current work on the Patterson cell. As people know Grenoble was getting XS-heat from their reproduced FP-cells although not great wads of the stuff. Biberian's group is obviously very attentive to controls and issues related to testing and this work should be strong evidence to force on those overly pedantic CF critics. There was less discussion of the CETI replication - Grenoble has a RIFEX kit but they really are after XS-heat. From what I can gather in their own CETI copy (they made their own beads) they have observed around 12-13% XS-heat and some evidence of transmutations. ***** Jean-Pierre Vigier (Paris) - "Possible Theoretical Consequences of 'Cold Fusion' Experiments" I may be a bigger fan of French CF than Italian. I know I prefer Vigier's enthusiastic theorizing to Preparata's alienating style (both clearly enjoy being theoretical rebels but Vigier is more of a collectivist which suits this sociologist just fine). Vigier is still on the idea of new Bohr orbits and he is still pushing the need to do experiments which would try to test one theory or another - check out his latest paper in Physics Letters A (perhaps its not quite out yet). Vigier cites Dufour's work in support of his view and also the work of Stan Spzak (who collaborated with some of us at UCSD by the way). The big news for me here is Vigier's prediction of the observation of a new Bulmer series for Hydrogen with the extra line(s) for the new energy states. Spzak's work, Vigier says, confirms this. The mantra here is the same as before -- look for soft X-rays. Um, is this not a pretty important discovery irrespective of CF? Anyway Vigier's friends in Belgrade (I'm not sure who) are at work on a confirmation of this. ***** Antonio Spallone (Frascati) - "A Preliminary D/Pd loading study: The Anomalous Phase Transition Effect Spallone (works with Celani) reported on some of the Frascati experiments - more studies of Pd-loading, more studies of XS-heat production using flow calorimetry. Again the importance of dealing with electromigration in achieving high loading was discussed and a warning not to try and load the cathodes too quickly. This is a common theme - in the pursuit of XS-heat its is wise to design a protocol which can maintain high loading at high voltage. I gather that the major explanation for the irreproducibility of XS-heat here is the problem of sudden and unpredictable deloading in the course of an experiment. ****** Francesco Premuda (Bologna) - "A Unified Theory of Cold Fusion and Superconductivity" I really, really wanted to follow this talk, but I couldn't (must have been the wine at lunch :-) Would anybody who has any idea what kind of "unified theory" this is please explain it to me? I want to make the possible connections between CF and superconductivity clear in my thesis. ****** Michael McKubre (SRI) - "Materials Issues of Loading Deuterium into Palladium, and the Association with Excess Heat Production" The issues always seem clearer to me after I hear McKubre talk about them. The good news is that in the wake of the NHE decline, the SRI group will be back on track with some DARPA funding (Hagelstein is involved as well) to work specifically on a demonstration experiment. The bad news was that McKubre reported on his more than 8 years of research on CF with the production of pretty disappointing results (in his view). The good news is that McKubre turned the past into an exercise in materials research and an attempt to explain why some cathodes "work", and some which should work do not. I'll skip to the conclusions but again this all revolves around the loading/deloading issue. McKubre suggests that pure Pd is too weak a material and is prone to deformations which lead to sudden deloading - their best batch of Pd was technical grade stuff. This suggests that Pd alloys might be better (possibly Pd with Boron). The other suggestion is that impurities may have a positive effect on producing XS heat by blunting the formation of dislocation chains. It would be great to see Ed Storms and McKubre have a discussion about this stuff, but Bob Huggins was there at least and he suggested that thin films which aren't really "big" enough to deform may be the best way to go. ***** Vittorio Violante (Frascati) - "Lattice Confinement - A Possible Mechanism Producing Collisions in Dense Matter" This paper looked at particle dynamics within the Pd lattice and my notes on this are fundamentally incomprehensible so again I must apologize. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 07:33:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05867; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:31:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:31:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:33:07 +0100 (CET) From: Mathias Bage X-Sender: mathias al To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: TT Brown on the Learning Channel Sunday In-Reply-To: <349AFABD.1D095814 minimal.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id HAA05829 Resent-Message-ID: <"uzjNl3.0.TR1.sWGhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi! On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, ralph muha wrote: > http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/schedule/tlc/1997/12/21.html > > http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/episode/29/548067004.html > > > > > Science Frontiers--Future Fantastic > > Week > > The Incredible Shrinking Planet > > -------------------------------------- > > > > Scientists invent their own > > high-speed flying saucers and attempt > > the ultimate form of transport > > teleportation. > > > > Air Time(s) Eastern Time: > > > > TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 10:00 PM > > > > TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 01:00 AM > > > > TLC - 21 Dec 1997 - 01:00 PM > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Copyright İ 1997 Discovery > > Communications, Inc. I live in Sweden, Europe. I called Discovery in the U.K. and they said it will never air here in Europe. WAAAAAAAAAAAAH! So, I wonder if anyone in the U.S. taped the show? If so, I'd like to buy a copy of it. /Mathias From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 07:46:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07088; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:43:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:43:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:36:59 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Digital Volt meters Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7Q6-K2.0.gk1.SiGhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., For any instrumentation techs [I already have been here, but would like to see the take from others]: Concerning electronic volt, ohm, ammeters and similar devices. Please comment on: Artifact, and the following properties, conditions, types; a] analog buffered front end; Vacuum tube bipolar transistor CMOS FET b] digital systems and the front end and digitization; buffered.... then A/D straight in to switched capacitor A/D c] other types One series of examples: Basic: FET front end is connected to very large R and C, on the orders of 10 meg and 100 microfarad or more. Flying leads of 12 to 18 inches are used. This conveys to any of the systems above. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 08:14:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10312; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:11:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:11:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AD1183.90B interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 11:10:43 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Equivalence Principle References: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> <3.0.1.32.19980102160656.0072ea78@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"s6bSh1.0.0X2.i6Hhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: > (snip) > With more distributed masses (maybe a semicircle of them?) this > vertical component could be made much more constant with height. Almost like gravitational Hemholtz coils, John! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 08:48:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17280; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:45:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:45:00 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801021644.KAA19213 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments In-Reply-To: from Rick Monteverde at "Jan 2, 98 00:08:01 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:44:52 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mgYEV1.0.vD4.AcHhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Does anyone remember any details of Chris' capacitor self-charging > experiments? > > I've been running the experiment over the holidays. I used three 4700uF 35v > electrolytic caps in a grounded steel toolbox. Normally we wouldn't expect battery action in capacitors, but since there are indeed dissimilar chemical elements in all capacitors (except vacuum insulated capacitors) tiny spontaneous electrical potentials resulting from minute chemical reactions should not come as a big surprise. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 08:53:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17719; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:50:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:50:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:52:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle Resent-Message-ID: <"mvJrG3.0.hK4.ehHhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:56 PM 1/2/98, John Winterflood wrote: >Jerry quoted: >>>In a small isolated room it would be impossible, >>>according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements >>>whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational >>>field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. > >Horace Heffner wrote: >>It is not true that you can not tell the difference. Gravity exerts tidal >>effects. In a gravitational field there is a difference in force between >>the top of the elevator and the bottom ... > >Rick Monteverde wrote: >>Actually as a practical matter, you *can* always tell. Divergence. >>Acceleration doesn't have it, 'real' g-fields from mass do. But I know what >>he meant anyway. > >Why does everybody think this? I don't think it need be so. >Here is my recent reply to John Logajan's post: > >John Winterflood wrote: >>John Logajan wrote: >>>..since in the vertical direction, gravity declines with distance.. >> >>It doesn't have to be so. Consider the following distribution of >>masses "0" and the vertical dotted line ":" >> >> : >> : >>0 : 0 >> The g component dimininshes along your proposed line in a normal 1/r^2 gashion. Any changing g component will produce tidal effects, even without divergence. It is possible to have a uniform gravitational field (as opposed to a 1/r^2 field) if you have two infinitely long masses designated by 0000000: . . . . . . 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 . . . . . . The plane between the masses then has a uniform g field, but there are still tidal effects. By specifying the mass to be in a spherical shell you simply have defined an internal space where g is 0. You can certainly say the you can not tell the difference between 0 net gravitational force and 0 acceleration, but that has little meaning in the original context of the statement of equivalence, which applies at all accelerations. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 08:56:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19401; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:53:27 -0800 Message-ID: <34AD1B8D.29EE interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 11:53:33 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments References: <199801021644.KAA19213 mirage.skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KouZ21.0.2l4.5kHhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > (snip) > Normally we wouldn't expect battery action in capacitors, but since there > are indeed dissimilar chemical elements in all capacitors (except vacuum > insulated capacitors) tiny spontaneous electrical potentials resulting > from minute chemical reactions should not come as a big surprise. > Good point, John. And we also have possible effects from background radiation and cosmic rays. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 09:53:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25430; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:49:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:49:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: , Subject: Re: Expert on Arata spillover effect Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:37:20 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980102175130758.AAA221 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"cs32X1.0.DD6.UYIhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rich forwards an anonymous commentary: > > An expert, skilled in the art, comments: > > I would like to address the Arata and Zhang (A&Z) claim of excessively > high loading inside the Pd black located inside their DS cathode. > Let me jump to the conclusion...I don't believe the A&Z claim. Which claim? High loading or excess energy? We shall see. One nice thing about the A&Z work (not just the 56 pager, but the > rest too) is that it does give a direct measure of pressure inside the > cathode. Unfortunately, their device was not capable of going > higher than 900 atm., and the data clearly shows the pressure still > rising. Yes! > In particular, note that they see the pressure increase in an empty > cathode. This comment is incomplete. Yes, the pressure rises immediately with the empty cathode, and the run is terminate at 10 atm. What our expert does not address is that with Pd-black present, the pressure does not rise for hours, indicating **something else happening**. The delay is a function of particle size. For the 4 micron particles, the pressure rise does not begin for ~15 hours. This is the size used in the experiment, where the pressure rises well beyond the 900 atm range of the instrumentation. The particles are only a few thousand atoms across. That observation leads directly to the Gedanken > experiment I wrote up (see below). The point of that was to illustrate > that if you have an internal D2 pressure, you will load Pd particles > just like gas loading experiments. No difference. Placing the > particles in contact with the cathode walls only provides a second path > for loading, which will only affect how fast the Pd black reaches > equilibrium. > > There are several interfaces in the A&Z cathode. Some are: > > - electrolyte-cathode outer wall > - cathode inner wall and internal gas space > - cathode inner wall and point contacts with Pd black > - Pd black particle surfaces and internal gas space > > Every interface also has a surface region that can show slightly > different behavior as well. All-in-all a very complex situation. > But, equilibrium will eventually be established across all of them, > and they will all end up being driven by the electrolysis > conditions What this so-plausible discussion omits is the phenomena illustrated and discussed in Fig 7 of the A&Z paper which very, very clearly shows that the pressure is very strongly dependent on the particle size. > (As an aside, A&Z in their 1994 paper in Proc. Jap. Acad. 70B claim > the 'Spillover-effect' is actually D atoms migrating from the > cathode to the Pd black particle _surface_ followed by rapid > 'across-the- surface' D flow. So A&Z don't even consider bulk > diffusion?? How would you measure that??) A&Z note the strong effect of particle size both in delaying the onset of the pressure rise and its eventual magnitude. As for "bulk" diffusion, the 4 micron particles are only a few thousand atoms across, so assumptions about "bulk" diffusion may be irrelevant. > For the A&Z claim to be correct there have to be two unlikely > things occurring. First, there has to be a mechanism to pump up the Pd > black preferentially. This is unlikely because there will be an > equivalent backflow of D at the wall contact points once a uniform > concentration gradient is established in the Pd particle. To get a > higher loading in the Pd black, you would have to block that diffusion, > and since there is no reason to assume that 'left-going' D travels a > different type of path from 'right-going' D, blocking diffusion would > simply stop or slow down _all_ traffic. Once again, the anonymous author does not discuss the data shown in Fig 7, showing a strong size-dependent effect. > By creating a hollow cathode, A&Z have produced a unique pressure > vessel. Their deformations, coupled with the simple concepts noted > here, should warn everyone that they are dealing with serious > potential for injury from catastrophic wall failure. I hope they > (and anyone who replicates the work) are and will be quite careful! How interesting. High pressure is created inside the capsule solely by electrolytic pressures, with no help from the strongly exothermic CF reactions in the Pd-black? Rich, who has been steadfastly denying the existence of these reactions, quotes this expert as if this is an explanation of what A&Z report. Now we have a potential bomb! Not quite. Bombs require exponentially rapid production of hot gases which produce shock waves. As Rich notes, there are only a few watts excess energy being produced. While there may be high temperatures inside the capsule space, augmenting the high temperatures, as evidenced by the partial melting of the Pd-black particles, the instantaneous heat content is small. In event of rupture, this would very quickly be absorbed by the electrolyte. > What has this to do with "cold fusion"? > > As far as I can see, nothing. But what happens when the high loading is accomplished? > It is just _another_ way to load Pd electrochemically. Just? What about the degree of loading as a function of particle size? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 09:53:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA31535; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:49:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:49:05 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:52:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss Resent-Message-ID: <"J8PVQ2.0.Mi7.FYIhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:18 AM 1/2/98, Scott Little wrote: >At 00:36 1/2/98 -0800, Jerry wrote: > > >>Woodward predicts that the mass of the capacitor should vary from its >normal >mass by about &plusmi;30 milligrams.... > >I've studied this Woodward stuff and there's only one big problem: > >Let's take a typical energy storage capacitor for example. I've got one >that's 2 mfd at 10kV. Using E=1/2CV^2 we find that it holds 100 joules >when charged. Using E=mc^2, I calculate that the mass of that capacitor >will increase by only 1.1 picograms when it's charged. I guess Woodward is >just using a capacitor that is 2.7E10 bigger than mine if he's getting 30 >milligrams of mass change. hmmm! my capacitor occupies a volume of about >5 liters...at the same energy density Woodward's would have to be a cube >about 510 meters on a side! > >How'd he arrive at +/- 30 milligrams of mass change!? > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Interestingly but not coincidentally it comes out the same if you just use the mass of the electrons that move from one plate to another (which should have nothing to do with mass change of a capacitor): Q=C*V=(2x10^-6 F)(10^5 V)=0.2 coulombs At 6.24x10^18 electrons/C that's 1.248x10^18 electrons, but at 9.109x10^-31 g/electron we have: m=(0.2 C)*(6.24x10^18 electrons/C)*(9.109x10^-31 g/electron) m=1.137x10^-12 g I would suggest the possibility of erroneous conclusion from experimental results. A 30 mg mass increase might be observed while charging some HV capacitors, especially if there is air in them, between the plates and dielectric. It is due to the fact that the attractive force on the plates reduces the capacitor volume, thus decreasing atmosphereic bouyancy. Using 1.3 g/l the 30 mg would amount to a decrease in volume of 0.023 l = 23 cm^3. This is a small decrease in volume and might not even be noticed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 10:09:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28216; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:07:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:07:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:10:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"dbo7o1.0.ou6.ppIhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:53 AM 1/2/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Good point, John. And we also have possible effects from background >radiation and cosmic rays. Good point Frank! If variations in capacitor discharge rate due to directional cosmic radiation is the cause, then discharge rate vs time of day for electroscopes would tell the tale experimentally. (Capacitors normally spontaneously re-charge - it is the offsetting discharge rate would be affected by background radiation.) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 10:34:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01756; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:31:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:31:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102122915.00a361ec mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 12:29:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Weight Loss In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2gDrv1.0.MR.RAJhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:52 1/2/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >Interestingly but not coincidentally it comes out the same if you just use >the mass of the electrons that move from one plate to another... It seems completely coincidental to me, Horace. For example, consider a 0.2 farad capacitor charged to 1 volt...you've got the same 0.2 coulombs as the 2 mfd cap charged to 10 kV but the stored energy is only 0.1 joules now and the mass equiv of that is 2.2E-15 gm...1000 times less than the mass of the electrons xferred. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 11:11:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17666; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:06:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:06:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 14:03:32 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Answer to (part 2) COLD FUSION TIMES cold fusion publication rate question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"waO313.0.mJ4.6hJhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Answer to (part 2) of the COLD FUSION TIMES puzzle BACKGROUND: Cold fusion is real, and appears to be consistent with conventional physics. We have reviewed the world's cold fusion literature which continues at a significant rate. Previously, regarding that publication rate, two questions were asked. 1. Which country is leading the scientific race based on the greatest number of publications about this field? winner: Horace Heffner for JAPAN one year subscription to the COLD FUSION TIMES. 2. What is the annual publication rate: Second part winner: John Schnurer < with his guess of 250, with further breakdown into peripherals, etc. John receives two years of COLD FUSION TIMES for the CLOSEST to our best estimate of the the average number of publications per year in this field. More information is available at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 13:58:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14198; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:47:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:47:37 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:40:56 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: superconducting experiments Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"OnNEn2.0.lT3.u1Mhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have just completed my last round of superconducting experiments. I exposed a 3.2 inch superconducting disk to frequencies from a few CPS to 40 Mega hertz. I did this in and out of a magnetic field, with several coil configurations. No anomalous energy was detected. The experiment could have detected 1/100 watt of anomalous energy. The experiment was designed to vibrate a superconductive disk in the RF band. The RF source was a home made spark gap transmitter. The resonant circuit of the transmitter was excited by a spark at 400 CPS. The coil of the tuned circuit was placed adjacent the superconductive disc. The EM in the area was monitored with a 40 Mhz scope for signatures of excess energy. No anomalous energy was detected. FOR SALE 1 - 3.25 inch superconducting disc with 1/2 hole in center. I cost me $750 from Gains superconductor and it was a leftover at reduced price. I let it go for 40% of what I paid for it. I paid $750. You can have it for $300. Do you own Tampere experiment at a reduced cost. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 14:34:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29995; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:29:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:29:00 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801021644.KAA19213 mirage.skypoint.com> References: from Rick Monteverde at "Jan 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:19:03 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"KQjQN2.0.OK7.XeMhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > Normally we wouldn't expect battery action in > capacitors, but since there are indeed > dissimilar chemical elements in all capacitors > (except vacuum insulated capacitors) tiny > spontaneous electrical potentials resulting > from minute chemical reactions should not > come as a big surprise. I'm sure that could have something to do with the generation of the signals, as well as piezo effects. But what's the external *modulator* of that signal generation? That's the real question here. Although it's hard to imagine there is one unless you see this firsthand, I'm finding it very hard not to believe there is something out there causing (modulating) this - even if it's only a tide type of gravity reaction. It could even be secondary. Perhaps the tides stressing the bulk rock around us in turn piezoelectrically raises charge which gets picked up by the caps which in themselves might not be capable of raising noticable charge from such a subtle gravitational stress. I don't know. Read that Hodowanec file (with a grain of salt, of course) if you haven't yet, and think about the issues he raises. Speculation can go on and on, but I think the answers will come from proper experiment and correlation to external influences. Either the correlation will really be there or it won't, and then I'll know if I'm seeing real pictures or just 'seeing things' in random static. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 14:35:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29978; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:28:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34ACD167.825890A4 southconn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:07:50 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"vLA3a3.0.8K7.UeMhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve/Paula - Thanks for the calculator address, I might be able to make use of it. I'm using Starry Night to check the positions of things, and it has nice guides and grids - and local sidereal time is in there somehwere. It's a graphical planetarium style program, so it's easy enough to see what's where even for me. But clearly ah needs t' ejucate m'self in these matters somewhat before I go too much further. ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 14:42:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02345; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:38:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:38:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:40:18 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss Resent-Message-ID: <"SmwI41.0.Za.EnMhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:29 PM 1/2/98, Scott Little wrote: >At 08:52 1/2/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Interestingly but not coincidentally it comes out the same if you just use >>the mass of the electrons that move from one plate to another... > >It seems completely coincidental to me, Horace. For example, consider a >0.2 farad capacitor charged to 1 volt...you've got the same 0.2 coulombs as >the 2 mfd cap charged to 10 kV but the stored energy is only 0.1 joules now >and the mass equiv of that is 2.2E-15 gm...1000 times less than the mass of >the electrons xferred. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Oh, yes, right your are! What was I thinking? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 14:42:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02013; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:35:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:35:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:38:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: superconducting experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"Pl_Ud1.0.FV.6lMhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:40 PM 1/2/98, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >I have just completed my last round of superconducting experiments. I exposed >a 3.2 inch superconducting disk to frequencies from a few CPS to 40 Mega >hertz. I did this in and out of a magnetic field, with several coil >configurations. No anomalous energy was detected. The experiment could have >detected 1/100 watt of anomalous energy. >The experiment was designed to vibrate a superconductive disk in the RF band. > >The RF source was a home made spark gap transmitter. The resonant circuit of >the transmitter was excited by a spark at 400 CPS. The coil of the tuned >circuit was placed adjacent the superconductive disc. The EM in the area was >monitored with a 40 Mhz scope for signatures of excess energy. No anomalous >energy was detected. > >FOR SALE > >1 - 3.25 inch superconducting disc with 1/2 hole in center. I cost me $750 >from Gains superconductor and it was a leftover at reduced price. I let it go >for 40% of what I paid for it. I paid $750. You can have it for $300. Do >you own Tampere experiment at a reduced cost. > >Frank Znidarsic Sold! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 14:56:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26176; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:52:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:52:14 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Another cathode material Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 22:51:25 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ad6f43.68961375 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dSlQe2.0.oO6.R-Mhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try UBe13. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 15:30:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08043; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:26:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:26:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AD7780.5262 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 18:25:52 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: superconducting experiments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7x5cg2.0.bz1.fUNhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC wrote: > No anomalous > energy was detected. > Frank, no wonder everyone on this list has been so repulsive lately - we continue to build up more and more negative results! We still love ya anyway, Frank! Keep up the good work! As a fellow crackpot, you makes me proud! (Remember how we looked on French TV!) Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 15:30:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08288; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:28:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:28:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:30:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Another cathode material Resent-Message-ID: <"C8Nlx3.0.M12.dWNhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:51 PM 1/2/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Try UBe13. Not sure what is meant. What you are driving at? Note - The chemical energy content of the Be is huge. Per volume of material oxized, it has the largest chemical energy from oxidation I have seen. You are bound to see lots of "excess heat" if you don't compensate for the consumed Be. A similar argument can be made for AL electrodes, etc. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 15:30:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA32220; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:26:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:26:51 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 23:26:11 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34af7789.71079878 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <01bd177d$097d4f40$LocalHost default> In-Reply-To: <01bd177d$097d4f40$LocalHost default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"onUBo.0.Lt7.vUNhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:50:42 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] > >You have it right. The sunlight coming in to >Jupiter will be red-shifted the same as those >comning in to Earth. The shifting occurs in the >gravity S.O.L. environment as the photons are formed. If photons travelling through a gravity gradient don't change frequency, then mass-energy conversion could theoretically be used to produce a perpetual motion device. This leads me to conclude that the R in the formula is in fact the distance from the centre of the body, and has nothing to do with its radius. This further implies that the red shift "seen" by Jupiter is greater than that seen by Earth, however don't forget that both Earth and Jupiter also add their own blue-shift to the equation (for "incoming" photons). A photon perfectly reflected from the surface of Jupiter would first be blue shifted before impact, then red-shifted after impact, so should not undergo any net change, at the same distance from the planet. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 15:31:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA32440; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:27:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:27:44 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:30:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Focus ZPE ...HH and Puthoff Q: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Resent-Message-ID: <"cf9rP1.0.mw7.lVNhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:06 PM 1/1/98, John Schnurer wrote: > Below there is mention of focussing ZPE .... how would one do this? > > > John > >On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >So there should be a column of rising air above a concave shaving >> >mirror lying face up on the table (even at night in a dark room :). >> >> If so, it would be imperceptable. Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE >> on a Cavendish ball though. Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying >> it when he is done with his other work? Congratulations John Schnurer on winning a two year free subscription to COLD FUSION TIMES! The suggested methods were (1) a concave metal lens or (2) a convex lens focuing in the x-ray range, as high a frequency as possible (I believe x-ray lenses have successfully been made out of pitch and/or wax, plastic might do) or (3) a fresnel lense made by depositing fine metal lines on a transparent substrate (maybe just a wacky idea.) I think, if feasible at all, the scale might have to be small. The "focusing ZPE" thought was just a matter of some brainstorming. Hoping to get that camel's nose in the tent. Following. once again. is the logic behind the idea: There is a big difference between a drive that requires mass and a drive that picks up its mass/energy as it goes along, even if very slowly. If picking up mass/energy from the vacuum is feasible, then superluminal travel may be feasible. Transporting by beaming energy/mass to an object is clearly sub-luminal in capability. The main problem at this point is getting the camel's nose into the tent, for if that can be accomplished it won't be long before the whole camel is in the tent. What is needed, at minimum, is a demonstration of feasibility, without regard to efficiency or cost. I believe the example I stated earlier provides just that, a demonstration of feasibility. I wrote: "OK, a variation might be to use a pair of back to back concave lenses to reflect sideways energy into focal points F1 and F2, and then divert with mirrors there to the rear of the craft. The lateral rays would all be reflected back laterallly due to symmetry. Also, if we had a ZPE lens that should work: Cross Section of Top Half of Lens/Mirror Configuration --------->---|| <--------------- ^ /||\ ^ | / || \ | | / || \ | |/ || \| --->----\-<--||-->-/------<----- F1 F2 The idea is to use convex lens || to refract ZPE from both right and left into focal points F1 and F2, and then use comparatively small mirrors to reflect the condensed ZPE to the rear of the ship. This is difficult to draw in characters. the bottom beam just slightly misses the mirrors at F1 or F2, but is then diverted by the lens into the opposing focal point mirror, and then to the rear of the craft." Following is further logic that may make the principle more understandable. Suppose we have two back-to-back concave lenses, as stated above, and small mirrors at the two focal points, F1 and F2, as stated above, but simply reflecting back at the concave mirrors: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ----<------- . . \ . . \ . . \ | . . \ |--<----->----- | . . / | F1 . . / F2 . . / . . / . . / . . . . . . . . . . . . . ------->-----> In this configuration, all forces are symmetrical and balanced. However, there is more force on the mirror at F2 from the concave mirror side than from space at the right. That is becuase the mirror focuses energy from the right onto mirror F2. The same is true in mirror image for mirror F1. Now, if we slant the mirror at F2: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ----<------- . . \ ^ . . \ | . . \ | | . .<------->--\|/-<----------- | . . / | F1 . . F2| Net . . | Thrust . . v | . . | . . . . . . . . . . . . . v The larger amount of condensed ZPE impinging on the left side of mirror F2 is then diverted upwards, more than enough to compensate for the downward thrust that results from the uncondensed radiation received from space at the right. Now, we know a mirror to deflect ZPE is possible, and that momentum is transferred to such a mirror, if it is shielded on one side by another mirror(the Casimir effect.) If a mirror is possible, then a concave mirror is possible. If a concave mirror is possible, the focusing ZPE is possible. If focusing ZPE is possible, then it can be focused onto a mirror that gains a net impulse from the ZPE momentum, due to focused energy being on one side of the mirror. Groups of 4 back-to-back laterally facing mirrors could be configured, each with the focal point mirrors facing aft. This configuration could be stacked in the axis of travel if the focalpoint mirrors are adjusted slightly outbound laterally. Have I missed something? Is the camel's nose in the tent, or not? I think the main problem with the mirror idea is that the angle of incidence is not equal to the angle of reflection for the vast majority of the radiation. The main problem is in building a true mirror, or at least an approximation, into the x-ray range. The convex lens idea might be easier. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 15:45:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09924; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:43:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:43:06 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer to (part 2) COLD FUSION TIMES cold fusion publication rate question Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 23:41:32 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b077de.71164803 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PlYV72.0.zQ2.8kNhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 14:03:32 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] > 2. What is the annual publication rate: > >Second part winner: > >John Schnurer < with his guess of 250, > >with further breakdown into peripherals, etc. John receives > >two years of COLD FUSION TIMES for the CLOSEST to our best estimate of >the > >the average number of publications per year in this field. [snip] Mitchell, What *was* your estimate of the average number of publications per year? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 15:46:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09266; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:37:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:37:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:31:27 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AuTxd2.0.gG2.KfNhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Rick Monteverde Cc: John Schnurer Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Dear Rick, You want to do a couple of things, first off: See if you can get a current reading. If you can, and it is in the micro amp region, then you can use a REGULAR raw 10 to 50 uA magnetic mechanical meter. You want to make a 'cheap and cheerful' screen [brass or copper window screen if you can get it ... aluminum second choice] covered box. One good method is to set up aquarium. Put screen on inside, all sides, and overlap out the top. Then make a top from glass or wood and screen... so when you put the top on, you have reasonable Farady cage. Take your cap and meter and wire a magnetic reed switch in series, normally open, and put reed switch on one side, meter in middle, cap on other. Tape the reed switch so it is close enough to glass to actuate it with magnet from outside. Now you can take non contact half-way shielded readings. Want to add some electronics and gain? a] Feed ANYTHING with chokes that well decoupled with at least 3 ranges of cap in parallel.... 0.001, 0.1, 1.0, 10 mF ... get the idea? Use non inverting op amp, bipolar kind, split supply. Reed switches again can be used to turn on and off the batteries and also one can be used to 'crowbar' the input to ground, for 'zero' reading. Use potentiometer as variable voltage divider to make it so your MECHANICAL meter is 3/4 way up, for some 'guesstimated' typical reading. Leave the whole get up in the Farady and test periodically. On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > John - > > > Is this meter a solid state meter? If so, a 10 > > meg resistor on same will read all kinds of > > good stuff. > > Yes, cheap Radio Shack "DMM". I'll want to check that out as well as > everything else. I forgot to say there's a ten meg in series on one of the > leads as well as across the cap load. Keeps from draining the cap too much. > Takes about 6 or 7 seconds for the read to settle, but it's not swinging > high/low or acting jumpy, just rising to where it flattens out and stops. > They're smooth solid reads and stable once they center. I believe 'em so > far, but *definitely* want to eliminate skanky instrumentation as a > possible error in this. That's why I posted early on even with the > experiment so casually run and the evidence so sparse - I want input from > you guys so I can get this right. > > Thanks! > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > There is no way for me to see your chart, unless you can get someone to put it on their www site. How about a table? Things to look for: Thermoelectric effect, dissimilar metals corrosion or input transistor acting as RF or 60 cps diode detector photo effect Use non electrolytic caps use two or three different types of dielectric, ie., poly carb, styrene, mylar measure current and voltage J > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 16:04:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03625; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:01:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:01:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980102190012.00df8030 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 19:00:12 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Answer to (part 2) COLD FUSION TIMES cold fusion publication rate question In-Reply-To: <34b077de.71164803 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eIreA3.0.Zu.3_Nhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:41 PM 1/2/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk(second closest) wrote: >What *was* your estimate of the average number of publications per >year? Here are two excerpts from the abstract which was submitted to ICCF-7. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz < ============================================================ (** not for recopy, transmission, publication, or distribution until ICCF-7, April 1998 (c)1998 METANALYSIS OF THE COLD FUSION LITERATURE Mitchell Swartz, JET Energy Technology, USA Hal Fox, Fusion Information Center, USA "Since the announcement of the discovery of cold fusion (CF) in March 1989, we have reported on CF as it has been replicated and demonstrated in laboratories in over thirty countries. This considerable effort by the scientific community has resulted in a massive and developing volume of cold fusion papers; many published in peer-reviewed journals, and others presented at technical conferences or published in technical publications. ... The annual rate of published articles in CF continues unabated in this field (mean 227 papers/year; range 100-400). We have examined this steady increase in scientific papers output in this field, and have analyzed the efforts on a country, and state, basis. The main countries contributing to cold fusion scientific effort are Japan (110,343), United States (86,930), Russia (52,198), India (28,71), Italy (13,108), France (11,41) and China (10,81), where the numbers indicate the CF experimental paper output in 1995-1996 and the cumulative scientific CF paper output from 1989 through 1996 including theoretical and peripheral papers. " (not for copy, transmission, publication, until ICCF-7, April 1998) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 16:39:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16079; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:36:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:36:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:38:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Safety issue re: Arata spillover effect Resent-Message-ID: <"XxtaH2.0.0x3._VOhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone wrote: >> By creating a hollow cathode, A&Z have produced a unique pressure >> vessel. Their deformations, coupled with the simple concepts noted >> here, should warn everyone that they are dealing with serious >> potential for injury from catastrophic wall failure. I hope they >> (and anyone who replicates the work) are and will be quite careful! At 1:37 PM 1/2/98, Mike Carrell wrote: > >Now we have a potential bomb! Not quite. Bombs require exponentially rapid >production of hot gases which produce shock waves. As Rich notes, there are >only a few watts excess energy being produced. While there may be high >temperatures inside the capsule space, augmenting the high temperatures, as >evidenced by the partial melting of the Pd-black particles, the >instantaneous heat content is small. In event of rupture, this would very >quickly be absorbed by the electrolyte. When there is over 900 atmospheres pressure in the cell the gas pressure is *already* there. There is sufficient energy there to create lethal projectiles from fragments of the Pd case, as well as from pieces of the surrounding electrolytic cell. Furthermore, such an explosion, with the presence of the incindiaries provided by Pd black particles releasing H2 (cigrette lighter effect), could initiate a secondary explosion from the hydrogen released by the cell. This is not a trivial issue. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 16:53:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17104; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:51:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:51:48 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Another cathode material Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 00:50:12 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b38963.75650146 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BCfTK.0.5B4.XkOhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:30:48 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 1:51 PM 1/2/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>Try UBe13. > >Not sure what is meant. What you are driving at? > >Note - The chemical energy content of the Be is huge. Per volume of >material oxized, it has the largest chemical energy from oxidation I have >seen. You are bound to see lots of "excess heat" if you don't compensate >for the consumed Be. A similar argument can be made for AL electrodes, etc. [snip] Apparently UBe13 is a special alloy, with a very complex cell. It also has strange conductivity changes near absolute zero. Because of the way in which I believe one form of superconductivity is related to CF, I am making an associative leap here. I think it might make a *very* interesting target material, especially at elevated temperatures (i.e. near the melting point). BTW I think all CF would proceed better at temperatures near the MP of the metal, it's just a bit difficult to achieve these in a water based electrolytic cell (molten salt may work better). In this regard, can someone point me the *seminal* paper on molten salt CF? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 16:55:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16678; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:43:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:43:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:45:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: superconducting experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"dYMsi1.0.W44.0dOhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:40 PM 1/2/98, FZNIDARSIC wrote: > >FOR SALE > >1 - 3.25 inch superconducting disc with 1/2 hole in center. I cost me $750 >from Gains superconductor and it was a leftover at reduced price. I let it go >for 40% of what I paid for it. I paid $750. You can have it for $300. Do >you own Tampere experiment at a reduced cost. > >Frank Znidarsic Frank, I have tried to reach you at , but aol rejects the messages. Could you send me a private email? Would like to get address to mail check, & make other arrangements. Thanks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 17:17:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19884; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:11:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:11:37 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Answer to (part 2) COLD FUSION TIMES cold fusion publication rate question Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 01:10:01 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b58fa8.77255559 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980102140332.00740ddc@world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980102190012.00df8030@world.std.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980102190012.00df8030 world.std.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kniUv3.0.cs4.71Phq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 19:00:12 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: [snip] > Here are two excerpts from the abstract which > >was submitted to ICCF-7. > > > Best wishes. > > Mitchell Swartz < [snip] Thanks Mitchell. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 17:17:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20071; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:13:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:13:33 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 01:11:58 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b6901c.77371345 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SDNgS3.0.Wv4.v2Phq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:07:50 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >me. But clearly ah needs t' ejucate m'self in these matters somewhat before >I go too much further. ;) Shouldn't that be "afore ah goes"? :) > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 17:19:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20534; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:16:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:16:49 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 01:15:15 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b890b2.77520999 mail.eisa.net.au> References: from Rick Monteverde at "Jan 2 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ghElW2.0.l05._5Phq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:19:03 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >I'm sure that could have something to do with the generation of the >signals, as well as piezo effects. But what's the external *modulator* of >that signal generation? That's the real question here. Although it's hard >to imagine there is one unless you see this firsthand, I'm finding it very >hard not to believe there is something out there causing (modulating) this >- even if it's only a tide type of gravity reaction. It could even be [snip] Have you measured the wall socket voltage as a function of time, and compared that graph with your capacitor graph? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 17:38:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17921; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:35:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:35:04 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:38:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"-7HhG3.0.sN4.6NPhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, Another thing that may correlate with your results is the atmospheric electrostatic field gradient. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 17:54:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23408; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:48:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:48:43 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:00:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd17da$937a0a00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rDAXc3.0.Sj5.qZPhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 4:24 PM Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. >On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 05:50:42 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >> >>You have it right. The sunlight coming in to >>Jupiter will be red-shifted the same as those >>comning in to Earth. The shifting occurs in the >>gravity S.O.L. environment as the photons are formed. > >If photons travelling through a gravity gradient don't change >frequency, then mass-energy conversion could theoretically be used to >produce a perpetual motion device. Yes Sir, Nature tends to do that,huh? >This leads me to conclude that the R in the formula is in fact the >distance from the centre of the body, and has nothing to do with its >radius. ROFL! :-) This further implies that the red shift "seen" by Jupiter is >greater than that seen by Earth, however don't forget that both Earth >and Jupiter also add their own blue-shift to the equation (for >"incoming" photons). All a matter of perspective, ain't it? If what you say is true then the photons from the Sun are Red, White, and Blue? :-) >A photon perfectly reflected from the surface of Jupiter would first >be blue shifted before impact, then red-shifted after impact, so >should not undergo any net change, at the same distance from the >planet. I'm distracted from you line of reasoning by the tune of, "Stars and Stripes Forever". :-) Regards, Frederick >[snip] > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 19:40:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03267; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:37:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:37:24 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b6901c.77371345 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:37:45 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"nBIoP.0.zo.p9Rhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > Shouldn't that be "afore ah goes"? :) It should, but I think the muse had left me by the time I got to that point. Slow typist, short attention span. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 19:46:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06261; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:43:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:43:02 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b890b2.77520999 mail.eisa.net.au> References: from Rick Monteverde at "Jan 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:42:25 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"N-lte.0.kX1.3FRhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > Have you measured the wall socket voltage as a > function of time, and compared that graph > with your capacitor graph? Nope. Good idea. As a guess though, I'd say that the pattern isn't like that of power usage, either in my house or in the city at large. There's be lots of activity earlier in the morning as people are getting up and making breakfast and getting ready for work and so forth, but that seems to be a chronically quiescent time on the caps lately. Worth checking though, thanks for the idea. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:04:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07803; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:59:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:59:12 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:58:36 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"6Ukvz1.0.nv1.EURhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Another thing that may correlate with your > results is the atmospheric electrostatic field > gradient. Yup. There's quite a host of effects that could be in themselves interesting and/or still have a remarkable source, and the caps are picking *that* up rather than detect the source of the events directly as internal dielectric activity. For instance it's hard to imagine miniscule gravity changes making obvious charge changes in the cap, but not so hard to imagine that the net piezo effect of tidal forces on the bulk rock below might cause a significant charge buildup or drain which the caps react to. I'm sure solar wind and similar things have quite an effect on the atmospehric electrical environment as well, and these may be involved here. I figure as a strategy though, looking for correlation where others have said they saw it is a pretty good bet. If it's just the sun, then foo - comes up every day and there's really no surprise to see that the sun 'does something'. But if the months pass and that main hill in the curve moves through the day to follow the time shift of Sagittarius hitting the meridian, then *that* really says something, no matter what the power line voltage or the solar wind is doing. I may just be looking for the easy way or the amusing way here, not necessarily the build-a-skeptic-proof-case-for-it approach. When I first started considering this I thought naw, no way - but then I remembered Tinsley's experiments and thought I'd try it quick and dirty. I'm just at the point where I'm quite sure there is something interesting here worth a further look. Of course I thought that about the SMOT too, so my track record's a bit shaky. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:13:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09379; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:10:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:10:26 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:10:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"6cXRy3.0.TI2.meRhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer says: > There is no way for me to see your chart, > unless you can get someone to put it on their > www site. I might get my web site up soon, so I'll put the curves up there when I get it done. I finally got all the patent papers Rob Dowse sent me all scanned to GIFs, so that's done. Thanks for the tips on the setup. I really like the magnetic reed switch idea. About shielding though, somehow I don't think it's all that critical. It seems like the right thing to do, but the curve on an unshielded cap really isn't any different that on the sheilded caps. Whatever it is, it's everywhere. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:22:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11379; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:20:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:20:43 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:23:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Focus ZPE ...HH and Puthoff Q: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Resent-Message-ID: <"Spv4k2.0.en2.QoRhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:06 PM 1/1/98, John Schnurer wrote: > Below there is mention of focussing ZPE .... how would one do this? > > > John > >On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >> >> >So there should be a column of rising air above a concave shaving >> >mirror lying face up on the table (even at night in a dark room :). >> >> If so, it would be imperceptable. Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE >> on a Cavendish ball though. Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying >> it when he is done with his other work? The suggested methods were (1) a concave metal lens or (2) a convex lens focuing in the x-ray range, as high a frequency as possible (I believe x-ray lenses have successfully been made out of pitch and/or wax, plastic might do) or (3) a fresnel lense made by depositing fine metal lines on a transparent substrate (maybe just a wacky idea.) I think, if feasible at all, the scale might have to be small. Here are a couple more: (4) use of concave superconductor as mirror and (5) arrange crystal fragments in concentric rings to make a Fresnel like lens, except working on the principle that x-rays of some frequencies tend to be emitted in the direction of the principle axes, so each crystal is aligned with a major axis pointing at the focal point. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:51:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13157; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:46:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:46:28 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ZPE variations Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 04:44:51 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bab554.86900618 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fTyoG1.0.VD3.YAShq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Suppose the ZPE exists, and is not perfectly uniform. Suppose further that mass is due to the interaction between a charge and the ZPE. >From these two, one might conclude that mass varies irregularly with time, about the average value that we measure. When this happens in the nucleus of an atom, and that nucleus is not very well balanced internally, then a momentary mass deficit or excess might "push it over the edge", and cause it to decay. Hal, please speak up if I have just reiterated something you said earlier (I have that awful feeling in the pit of my stomach that this isn't original :(. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:52:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13185; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:46:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:46:35 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BrF, Br, and HBr as hydrino formation catalysts Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 04:44:57 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bebc90.88753487 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"u6krk3.0.wD3.eAShq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 22:54:47 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >At 100% Faraday efficiency the 200 mA should only produce 0.03386 cm^2/s of >O2 + H2. (This number brought to you courtesy John Logajan's Thermodynamic >Scorecard. We now return to our regular broadcasting.) The curtain you >created sounds like there might be excess gas, but it might have been >partially CO2 and partially steam. BTW, it might be easy to do the Worse than that, there was also Fe+++ ions created in the water (brown color), from the "stainless" steel plates. >calorimetry. I have had very good luck doing boiloff experiments lately. >Basically all you have to do is preheat the cell to 100 C and insulate it >well. Weigh before and after. Seems to provide a very accurate method of >calorimetry, but you have to operate the cell at boiling - something I >consider an advantage because that's where you want to get anyway to be >practical! Agreed. In fact to be really practical you need to operate at about 200 C, and 10 Atm. This should make the CF reaction run even faster. Strange that you hear so little about this on Vortex. (Reason why I'd be interested in any results from the "Nova Resources Group" as advertised on the back cover of IE). > >Was this a while ago or just recently? I take it you used pure water prior A few months ago. >to adding the KHCO3? Wouldn't happen to have access to HBr and HF would >you? 8^) I tried both pure water, and tap water. Essentially no difference. Basically is was just another extremely amateurish null experiment. (The tap water would have contained some chlorine, and probably fluorides as well). (Note that in water both HBr and HF are largely going to disassociate into the ions, though HF somewhat less than HBr). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:53:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13218; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:46:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:46:45 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Helium as hydrino catalyst (vs molecular catalysts) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 04:45:04 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bfbf34.89429022 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m7LVK1.0.SE3.oAShq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:12:22 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >I think the reduction energy (and then some) was supplied at the time of >ionization - by the filiment. The filiment doesn't actually do the ionization. This occurs mostly when the KNOx is formed (if in fact the K ever existed as an atom, in the history of the universe). All the filiment does (if it even has anything to do with the KNOx), is separate the ions from one another, i.e. break the crystal apart (though this may require quite a bit of energy). I'm not quite sure what Mills has in mind in this regard, as this isn't the sort of thing I would normally expect to happen. In fact I even wonder if the KNOx doesn't just fall apart on it's own, after evaporation? (Perhaps if the NOx undergoes an auto-redox reaction, and partially self destructs, leaving the K+ "out in the cold" as it were). > > >>> >>> >>>Evaporation won't ionize the KNO3 very much, it will it? Even at 2000 C? >> >>I don't know whether it does or not, but it is obvious that this is >>the reason why Mills et al include it in the experiment (i.e. as a >>source of K+ ions in the gas phase). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 20:59:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14721; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:58:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:58:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:00:17 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"C264d3.0.wb3.ULShq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:58 PM 1/2/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > Another thing that may correlate with your > > results is the atmospheric electrostatic field > > gradient. > >Yup. There's quite a host of effects that could be in themselves >interesting [snip] >I may just be looking for the easy way or the amusing way here, not >necessarily the build-a-skeptic-proof-case-for-it approach. When I first >started considering this I thought naw, no way - but then I remembered >Tinsley's experiments and thought I'd try it quick and dirty. I'm just at >the point where I'm quite sure there is something interesting here worth a >further look. Of course I thought that about the SMOT too, so my track >record's a bit shaky. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Hey, looks like you got some interesting results! At least you have *something* unexplained to study! The charge curve could correlate with wind direction too, or local atmospheric ionization levels, or just ambient light in the vicinity. Another hypothesis is that increased air pressure compresses (or decompresses) the capacitor, thus increasing (decreasing) its capacitance, and creating a generator of sorts. Say, the thing should be portable. Have you considered driving around with it? Maybe take it to the top of a volcano or something. I hear Hawaii has some very exciting sprit caves ... Strange, Hawaii sounds like one of least interesting places to try a new sensor. Would be more interesting to compare results near fault lines, underground water, etc. You do have airport radars around though probably. The peaks might correspond to air traffic arrival/departure frequency. Other than that, or purely atmospheric phenomena, it almost seems like Hawaii would be a good *control* location. If you put it into a Faraday shield like John Schnurer suggests, and sealed from atmospheric changes, and light, and still get results, and if they are from *any* normally explainable source, you have pretty well linked the effect to x-rays or cosmic rays though, IMHO. If all else fails, it could be marketed as a "Love Meter". 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 21:07:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16979; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:06:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:06:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:09:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BrF, Br, and HBr as hydrino formation catalysts Resent-Message-ID: <"jbkfh3.0.B94.zSShq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:44 PM 1/2/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] > >I tried both pure water, and tap water. Essentially no difference. >Basically is was just another extremely amateurish null experiment. > Don't feel bad, I have hundreds of those to not report! The only ones that are ever promising are the ones I havn't yet checked out fully. Isn't tht strange. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 21:12:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16633; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:03:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:03:30 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 05:02:52 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34c0c2e0.90369666 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <01bd17da$937a0a00$LocalHost default> In-Reply-To: <01bd17da$937a0a00$LocalHost default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q2F6B1.0.l34.WQShq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:00:17 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >>If photons travelling through a gravity gradient don't change >>frequency, then mass-energy conversion could theoretically be used to >>produce a perpetual motion device. > >Yes Sir, Nature tends to do that,huh? Was this serious or sarcastic? > >>This leads me to conclude that the R in the formula is in fact the >>distance from the centre of the body, and has nothing to do with its >>radius. > >ROFL! :-) Conservation of energy requires that photon frequency change with the change in gravitational potential energy (i.e. the further out of a gravitational well the photon rises, the more energy it loses as it fights against the field, hence red shift). This in turn depends on distance from the centre of gravity, and has nothing to do with the size of the object in question, only on its mass, and the change in distance to the centre of that mass. > > This further implies that the red shift "seen" by Jupiter is >>greater than that seen by Earth, however don't forget that both Earth >>and Jupiter also add their own blue-shift to the equation (for >>"incoming" photons). > >All a matter of perspective, ain't it? If what >you say is true then the photons from the Sun >are Red, White, and Blue? :-) Sure, just use a prism :) > >>A photon perfectly reflected from the surface of Jupiter would first >>be blue shifted before impact, then red-shifted after impact, so >>should not undergo any net change, at the same distance from the >>planet. > >I'm distracted from you line of reasoning by >the tune of, "Stars and Stripes Forever". :-) Too much partying with the New Year? :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 21:20:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16482; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:17:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:14:37 -0900 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Resent-Message-ID: <"HgODw.0.P14.qdShq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >-----Original Message----- >From: Robin van Spaandonk [snip] > >>A photon perfectly reflected from the surface of Jupiter would first >>be blue shifted before impact, then red-shifted after impact, so >>should not undergo any net change, at the same distance from the >>planet. At 5:00 PM 1/2/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >I'm distracted from you line of reasoning by >the tune of, "Stars and Stripes Forever". :-) > The blue shift in, red shift out, idea makes sense to me. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 22:46:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26711; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:42:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:42:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:39:12 +1100 Message-Id: <199801030739.SAA22704 main.murray.net.au> X-Sender: egel mail.sa.ozland.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Geoff Egel Subject: Re: TT Brown on the Learning Channel Sunday Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id WAA26687 Resent-Message-ID: <"C5Vxo2.0.EX6.ysThq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:33 PM 1/2/98 +0100, you wrote: > > >Hi! > >On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, ralph muha wrote: > >> http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/schedule/tlc/1997/12/21.html >> >> http://www.discovery.com/diginets/smartviewer/episode/29/548067004.html >> >> > >> > Science Frontiers--Future Fantastic >> > Week >> > The Incredible Shrinking Planet >> > -------------------------------------- >> > >> > Scientists invent their own >> > high-speed flying saucers and attempt >> > the ultimate form of transport >> > teleportation. >> > >> > Air Time(s) Eastern Time: >> > >> > TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 10:00 PM >> > >> > TLC - 16 Dec 1997 - 01:00 AM >> > >> > TLC - 21 Dec 1997 - 01:00 PM >> > >> > -------------------------------------- >> > Copyright İ 1997 Discovery >> > Communications, Inc. > > > >I live in Sweden, Europe. I called Discovery in the U.K. and they >said it will never air here in Europe. WAAAAAAAAAAAAH! > >So, I wonder if anyone in the U.S. taped the show? If so, I'd like to >buy a copy of it. > > >/Mathias > > >Would like to see one myself either in Americab Ntsc or European Pal video system >Geoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 22:48:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26619; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:41:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:41:24 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:40:58 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"xsACk.0.nV6.HsThq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > At least you have > *something* unexplained to study! There ya go. SMOTs were a bust, and CF's outta my league. This requires a capacitor, a meter, and no brain. It's *perfect* for me. I'm going for my crackpot merit badge fer sure now. > Strange, Hawaii sounds like one of least > interesting places to try a new sensor. Would > be more interesting to compare results near > fault lines, underground water, etc. Phunny, Ida thunk Palmer would do nicely too. There's no big volcanoes or faults near there either, right? Come on now, don't denali it. Fault lines - now that's something we don't have around these parts (he said, as he typed on his computer at home along the line of little volcanoes on east Oahu that sprung up along a giant CRACK in the earth). ;) . . . I don't have the kind of proof yet that travels well I guess, but these results were also recorded by TTB with sealed devices in tunnels here. Now there's some people on Maui doing this stuff with different kinds of Hodowanec-type sensors and are apparently getting some nice results. They may even have some HAARP snapshots, and correlations to celestial alignments. See http://www.t-link.net/~aquarius/gwrphome/gravwave.htm. Excellent site, nice layout and links. Weird, but pretty cool as far as weird goes. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 22:52:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01541; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:48:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:48:37 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34bab554.86900618 mail.eisa.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:48:55 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: ZPE variations Resent-Message-ID: <"ex5zR2.0.wN.4zThq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > Suppose further that mass is due to the > interaction between a charge and the ZPE. > From these two, one might conclude that mass > varies irregularly with time, about the > average value that we measure. >From the story I just read (I don't know if it's true), Hodowanec was working on some sort of electronic scale when he found that the weight of his reference weights were drifting around. His circuit to zero that out in the scale became the basis for his detector. The thing is that without a better description, I don't know if his circuit zeroed out electrical drift in the circuitry of the scale, or if it zeroed out variations in the circuit values *due* to changes in the actual momentary weight of the weights. How could you differentiate the two anyway? Isn't the yardstick changing along with the thing measured? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 2 23:29:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07345; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:25:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:28:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"UXHkO.0.go1.uVUhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, Your curve may also correlate with temperature. Expanding a dielectric, or changing the electrolyte equilibrium, may change the capacitance, and create a current in any capacitor that is partially charged. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 02:17:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10667; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:14:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:14:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 01:16:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Infringement of Patents Resent-Message-ID: <"kJiik2.0.bc2.1-Whq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is some text of possible interest from the USPTO web page: 35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent. (a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent. (b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable as an infringer. (c) Whoever offers to sell or sells within the United States or imports into the United States a component of a patented machine, manufacture, combination, or composition, or a material or apparatus for use in practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted for use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, shall be liable as a contributory infringer. (d) No patent owner otherwise entitled to relief for infringement or contributory infringement of a patent shall be denied relief or deemed guilty of misuse or illegal extension of the patent right by reason of his having done one or more of the following: (1) derived revenue from acts which if performed by another without his consent would constitute contributory infringement of the patent; (2) licensed or authorized another to perform acts which if performed without his consent would constitute contributory infringement of the patent; (3) sought to enforce his patent rights against infringement or contributory infringement; (4) refused to license or use any rights to the patent; or (5) conditioned the license of any rights to the patent or the sale of the patented product on the acquisition of a license to rights in another patent or purchase of a separate product, unless, in view of the circumstances, the patent owner has market power in the relevant market for the patent or patented product on which the license or sale is conditioned. (e)(1) It shall not be an act of infringement to make, use, offer to sell, or sell within the United States or import into the United States a patented invention (other than a new animal drug or veterinary biological product (as those terms are used in the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act and the Act of March 4, 1913) which is primarily manufactured using recombinant DNA, recombinant RNA, hybridoma technology, or other processes involving site specific genetic manipulation techniques) solely for uses reasonably related to the development and submission of information under a Federal law which regulates the manufacture, use, or sale of drugs or veterinary biological products. (2) It shall be an act of infringement to submit -- (A) an application under section 505(j) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act or described in section 505(b)(2) of such Act for a drug claimed in a patent or the use of which is claimed in a patent, or (B) an application under section 512 of such Act or under the Act of March 4, 1913 (21 U.S.C. 151 - 158) for a drug or veterinary biological product which is not primarily manufactured using recombinant DNA, recombinant RNA, hybridoma technology, or other processes involving site specific genetic manipulation techniques and which is claimed in a patent or the use of which is claimed in a patent, if the purpose of such submission is to obtain approval under such Act to engage in the commercial manufacture, use, or sale of a drug or veterinary biological product claimed in a patent or the use of which is claimed in a patent before the expiration of such patent. (3) In any action for patent infringement brought under this section, no injunctive or other relief may be granted which would prohibit the making, using, offering to sell, or selling within the United States or importing into the United States of a patented invention under paragraph (1). (4) For an act of infringement described in para- graph (2)- (A) the court shall order the effective date of any approval of the drug or veterinary biological product involved in the infringement to be a date which is not earlier than the date of the expiration of the patent which has been infringed, (B) injunctive relief may be granted against an infringer to prevent the commercial manufacture, use, offer to sell, or sale within the United States or importation into the United States of an approved drug or veterinary biological product, and (C) damages or other monetary relief may be awarded against an infringer only if there has been commercial manufacture, use, offer to sell, or sale within the United States or importation into the United States of an approved drug or veterinary biological product. The remedies prescribed by subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) are the only remedies which may be granted by a court for an act of infringement described in paragraph (2), except that a court may award attorney fees under section 285. (f)(1) Whoever without authority supplies or causes to be supplied in or from the United States all or a substantial portion of the components of a patented invention, where such components are uncombined in whole or in part, in such manner as to actively induce the combination of such components outside of the United States in a manner that would infringe the patent if such combination occurred within the United States, shall be liable as an infringer. (2) Whoever without authority supplies or causes to be supplied in or from the United States any component of a patented invention that is especially made or especially adapted for use in the invention and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, where such component is uncombined in whole or in part, knowing that such component is so made or adapted and intending that such component will be combined outside of the United States in a manner that would infringe the patent if such combination occurred within the United States, shall be liable as an infringer. (g) Whoever without authority imports into the United States or offers to sell, sells, or uses within the United States a product which is made by a process patented in the United States shall be liable as an infringer, if the importation, offer to sell, sale, or use of the product occurs during the term of such process patent. In an action for infringement of a process patent, no remedy may be granted for infringement on account of the noncommercial use or retail sale of a product unless there is no adequate remedy under this title for infringement on account of the importation or other use, offer to sell, or sale of that product. A product which is made by a patented process will, for purposes of this title, not be considered to be so made after - (1) it is materially changed by subsequent processes; or (2) it becomes a trivial and nonessential component of another product. (h) As used in this section, the term ``whoever" includes any State, any instrumentality of a State, any officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity. (i) As used in this section, an "offer for sale" or an "offer to sell" by a person other than the patentee or any assignee of the patentee, is that in which the sale will occur before the expiration of the term of the patent. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 02:40:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24601; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:37:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:37:34 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 03:34:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1833$39333d60$7b83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"igYms1.0.J06.jJXhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The VLA "antenna farm" is about an hour drive from my home. I drove past/through it last summer. Seems like a good way to harness ZPE if it exists. Otherwise the 27, 85 ft diameter "dishes" could be used as "cups" for one Helluva Wind-Power machine. :-) http://www.nrao.edu/doc/vla/html/VLAintro/shtml Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 04:06:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA15649; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:01:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:01:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: VLA ZPE FARM (VLA URL error) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:48:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd183d$7d1769c0$3b93410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"VdShd3.0.Mq3.oYYhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Address GooF. http://www.nrao.edu/doc/vla/html/VLAintro.shtml slashes don't replace dots. 15 Megawatt Solar Collector? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 04:39:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18724; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:35:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:35:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34AD0BBF.7DD79F1F verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 18:46:07 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weight Loss References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"15Kpb1.0.Ta4.F2Zhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Jerry - > > > In a small isolated room it would be > > impossible, according to the Equivalence > > Principle, to tell from local measurements > > whether the room was on the surface of the > > Earth in a 1 g gravitational field or in a > > rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through > > gravity-free space. > > Actually as a practical matter, you *can* always tell. Divergence. > Acceleration doesn't have it, 'real' g-fields from mass do. But I know what > he meant anyway. > Yes (to what?), Einstein says it should be no experiment to determine the presence of the gravitational field directly, only way is measure tidal effects to see whether there is a physical gravitational source. (Of course he said it in a more comprehensib le and in a smarter form :-) ) Actually, GR is an macroscopic theory of gravity. It say simply mass/energy is source of the gravity or space-time curvature, but does not enter to detail how the gravity produced by the mass. So, one can feel free him/her self to introduce a hypothesis t o describe the mass-gravity relation in microscopic scale without contradiction with the GR. Indeed, GR gave no exclusivity to mass to be only source of the gravity, I think. So generating synthetic gravity will not violate the GR. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 05:45:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22112; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 05:42:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 05:42:16 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Weight Loss Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 06:37:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd184c$cc0b0fa0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GIfIT2.0.QP5.r0ahq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Hamdi Ucar To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 5:23 AM Subject: Re: Weight Loss > >Yes (to what?), Einstein says it should be no experiment to determine the presence of the gravitational field directly, only way is measure tidal effects to see whether there is a physical gravitational source. (Of course he said it in a more comprehensible and in a smarter form :-) ) Not really. He spent the last 30 years of his life trying to figure out what he said. :-) > >Actually, GR is an macroscopic theory of gravity. It say simply mass/energy is source of the gravity or space-time curvature, but does not enter to detail how the gravity produced by the mass. So, one can feel free him/her self to introduce a hypothesis to describe the mass-gravity relation in microscopic scale without contradiction with the GR. That is why it is called "General Relativity". > >Indeed, GR gave no exclusivity to mass to be only source of the gravity, >I think. So generating synthetic gravity will not violate the GR. I Agree. Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 07:41:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22711; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 07:36:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 07:36:38 -0800 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:35:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801031535.JAA22124 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Infringement of Patents To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"1RPxW3.0.mY5.5ibhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 1/3/97 Horace wrote below: The law quoted by Horace is obviously correct. However, it is noted a patent only conferes an affirmative property right to the owner. This means it is up to patent holder to detect the "infringement" and do something about it. The PTO or government will not automatically step in and prevent the infringement. It is the responsibility of the patent owner to step in and assume the full burden for stopping the infringer and obtaining damages. This usually a difficult task. It may ultimately require the patent owner to sue the infringer in US District Court where the infringer resides or the infringement took place. If the patent owner successfully defends his/her patent in US District court, the court may issue an injunction to desist or order damages for that district. All this litigation is extremely time consuming and very expensive. Judgements and injunctions are generally limited to a District Courts jurisdiction. It's realtively easy for an infringer to move his/her operation to another district or another country. Enforcement of a judgement maybe equally difficult and require additional litigation. Often the patent holder is awarded damages, but the infringer is insolvent. The patent holder ends up with a nice piece of paper and astronomical legal fees. But, lawyers have to make a living too. Right? RWW, Esq. ====================================================================== > >Here is some text of possible interest from the USPTO web page: > >35 U.S.C. 271 Infringement of patent. > > > > > > (a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever > >without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented > >invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States > >any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes > >the patent. > > > > (b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be > >liable as an infringer. > > > > (c) Whoever offers to sell or sells within the United States > >or imports into the United States a component of a patented machine, > >manufacture, combination, or composition, or a material or apparatus for > >use in practicing a patented process, constituting a material part of the > >invention, knowing the same to be especially made or especially adapted > >for use in an infringement of such patent, and not a staple article or > >commodity of commerce suitable for substantial noninfringing use, shall > >be liable as a contributory infringer. > > > > (d) No patent owner otherwise entitled to relief for > >infringement or contributory infringement of a patent shall be denied > >relief or deemed guilty of misuse or illegal extension of the patent > >right by reason of his having done one or more of the following: (1) > >derived revenue from acts which if performed by another without his > >consent would constitute contributory infringement of the patent; (2) > >licensed or authorized another to perform acts which if performed without > >his consent would constitute contributory infringement of the patent; > >(3) sought to enforce his patent rights > > > > > > > > > >against infringement or contributory infringement; (4) refused to license > >or use any rights to the patent; or (5) conditioned the license of any > >rights to the patent or the sale of the patented product on the > >acquisition of a license to rights in another patent or purchase of a > >separate product, unless, in view of the circumstances, the patent owner > >has market power in the relevant market for the patent or patented > >product on which the license or sale is conditioned. > > (e)(1) It shall not be an act of infringement to make, use, offer > > to sell, or sell within the United States or import into the United > >States a patented invention (other than a new animal drug or veterinary > >biological product (as those terms are used in the Federal Food, Drug, > >and Cosmetic Act and the Act of March 4, 1913) which is primarily > >manufactured using recombinant DNA, recombinant RNA, hybridoma > >technology, or other processes involving site specific genetic > >manipulation techniques) solely for uses reasonably related to the > >development and submission of information under a Federal law which > >regulates the manufacture, use, or sale of drugs or veterinary biological > >products. > > (2) It shall be an act of infringement to submit -- > > > > (A) an application under section 505(j) of the Federal Food, > >Drug, and Cosmetic Act or described in section 505(b)(2) of such Act for > >a drug claimed in a patent or the use of which is claimed in a patent, or > > > > (B) an application under section 512 of such Act or under the > >Act of March 4, 1913 (21 U.S.C. 151 - 158) for a drug or veterinary > >biological product which is not primarily manufactured using recombinant > >DNA, recombinant RNA, hybridoma technology, or other processes involving > >site specific genetic manipulation techniques and which is claimed in a > >patent or the use of which is claimed in a patent, if the purpose of such > >submission is to obtain approval under such Act to engage in the > >commercial manufacture, use, or sale of a drug or veterinary biological > >product claimed in a patent or the use of which is claimed in a patent > >before the expiration of such patent. > > > > (3) In any action for patent infringement brought under this > >section, no injunctive or other relief may be granted which would > >prohibit the making, using, offering to sell, or selling within the > >United States or importing into the United States of a patented invention > >under paragraph (1). > > > > (4) For an act of infringement described in para- > >graph (2)- > > > > (A) the court shall order the effective date of any approval > >of the drug or veterinary biological product involved in the infringement > >to be a date which is not earlier than the date of the expiration of the > >patent which has been infringed, > > > > (B) injunctive relief may be granted against an infringer to > >prevent the commercial manufacture, use, offer to sell, or sale within > >the United States or importation into the United States of an approved > >drug or veterinary biological product, and > > > > (C) damages or other monetary relief may be awarded against an > >infringer only if there has been commercial manufacture, use, offer to > >sell, or sale within the United States or importation into the United > >States of an approved drug or veterinary biological product. > > > > The remedies prescribed by subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) are the > >only remedies which may be granted by a court for an act of infringement > >described in paragraph (2), except that a court may award attorney fees > >under section 285. > > > > (f)(1) Whoever without authority supplies or causes to be > >supplied in or from the United States all or a substantial portion of the > >components of a patented invention, where such components are uncombined > >in whole or in part, in such manner as to actively induce the combination > >of such components outside of the United States in a manner that would > >infringe the patent if such combination occurred within the United > >States, shall be liable as an infringer. > > (2) Whoever without authority supplies or causes to be > >supplied in or from the United States any component of a patented > >invention that is especially made or especially adapted for use in the > >invention and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for > >substantial noninfringing use, where such component is uncombined in > >whole or in part, knowing that such component is so made or adapted and > >intending that such component will be combined outside of the United > >States in a manner that would infringe the patent if such combination > >occurred within the United States, shall be liable as an infringer. > > (g) Whoever without authority imports into the United States > >or offers to sell, sells, or uses within the United States a product > >which is made by a process patented in the United States shall be liable > >as an infringer, if the importation, offer to sell, sale, or use of the > >product occurs during the term of such process patent. In an action for > >infringement of a process patent, no remedy may be granted for > >infringement on account of the noncommercial use or retail sale of a > >product unless there is no adequate remedy under this title for > >infringement on account of the importation or other use, offer to sell, > >or sale of that product. A product which is made by a patented process > >will, for purposes of this title, not be considered to be so made after - > > (1) it is materially changed by subsequent processes; or > > (2) it becomes a trivial and nonessential component of another > >product. > > > > > > (h) As used in this section, the term ``whoever" includes any > >State, any instrumentality of a State, any officer or employee of a State > >or instrumentality of a State acting in his official capacity. Any > >State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be > >subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the > >same extent as any nongovernmental entity. > > > > (i) As used in this section, an "offer for sale" or an "offer to > >sell" by a person other than the patentee or any assignee of the > >patentee, is that in which the sale will occur before the expiration of > >the term of the patent. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 07:52:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24648; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 07:51:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 07:51:24 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:50:46 +0000 Message-ID: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Tb6hN1.0.y06.vvbhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, I was attending some training a while back and was told by a pair of technicians about always being careful to discharge capacitors that have been stored for a while. They considered it common knowledge that dangerous charges can get built up just sitting on the shelf. I tried not to display my non-belief in their words, because I knew these men were quite experienced. Now, battery activity could account for some charging, but what ambient energy source could separate substantial amounts of charges without rectification? It just makes no sense to me, unless maybe the capacitor storage area was in a steep average field gradient, in which case, orientation would make all the difference. If the charging to dangerous levels is real, then wouldn't such an effect have discermable effects on the bio-electo-chemical systems of living organisms (maybe it does, as Beck claims). Even if Rick Monteverde's curve correlates well with something like power usage in the neighborhood, that explains no mechanism of charge separation to me. Maybe it is an "old technician's tale," or maybe I was being sent on a snipe hunt. I've never made any study of it, so this is just anecdotal corroboration. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 09:11:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04431; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:08:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:08:27 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34AE6095.63BCCF3 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 11:00:21 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments References: <199801021644.KAA19213 mirage.skypoint.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------56B9CFCD3F638EA2DAC5A53" Resent-Message-ID: <"xds3t.0.651.A2dhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------56B9CFCD3F638EA2DAC5A53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="y" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="y" Rick Monteverde wrote: Does anyone remember any details of Chris' capacitor self-charging experiments? I've been running the experiment over the holidays. I used three 4700uF 35v electrolytic caps in a grounded steel toolbox. ... John Logajan wrote: Normally we wouldn't expect battery action in capacitors, but since there are indeed dissimilar chemical elements in all capacitors (except vacuum insulated capacitors) tiny spontaneous electrical potentials resulting from minute chemical reactions should not come as a big surprise. ... Robin wrote: "Suppose further that mass is due to the interaction between a charge and the ZPE. From these two, one might conclude that mass varies irregularly with time, about the average value that we measure." Rick Monteverde wrote: >From the story I just read (I don't know if it's true), Hodowanec was working on some sort of electronic scale when he found that the weight of his reference weights were drifting around. ... Hi all, I can't resist throwing in 2 cents worth on Rick's fascinating experiment, namely the curious coincidence between Woodward's experiment and a suggestion by Hodowanec (or by Jerry W. Decker?) regarding the movement of capacitors, as shown in the attached file. Jack Smith --------------56B9CFCD3F638EA2DAC5A53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" The pertinent phrases are capitalized: All About Gravitational Waves by Gregory Hodowanec Reproduced without permission from Radio-Electronics magazine April 1986 by The Trace - June 1, 1991 Abstract: Are gravitational waves the source of noise in electronic devices? The author believes so, and describes a simple circuit to detect the waves. ... While some of that charging could be attributed to a chemical reaction in the capacitor, I believe that much of it is caused by gravity-wave impulses bathing the capacitor at all times. And the means by which gravity waves transfer energy is similar to another means of energy transfer that is well known to readers of Radio- Electronics: the electric field. ... As shown in Fig. 1-a, the presence of a large mass near the plates of a capacitor causes a polarized alignment of the molecules in the capacitor, as though an external DC voltage had been applied to the capacitor, as shown in Fig. 1-b. ... If in fact the MOVEMENT OF A CAPACITOR through space will induce a charge on the plates of the capacitor, then we can see some interesting possibilities. Most important of all the direction towards a free energy device using the moving plates of a capacitor. Maybe this is the secret of the Testatika, the M-L convertor and others which use electrostatic chopping. ... Analog Science Fiction & Fact Magazine "The Alternate View" columns of John G. Cramer Antigravity Sightings, by John G. Cramer Alternate View Column AV-83 ... The first of these "sightings" was recently published by J. F. Woodward in the prominent journal Foundations of Physics Letters. ... Woodward's test of Mach's Principle works in much the same way (the old puzzle of the Juggler and the Bridge). He mounts his mass-varying bank of capacitors atop a piezoelectric motion device which MOVES THE CAPACITORS up and down. By timing the upward push of the motion device to correspond to the mass minimum of the capacitor bank, he attempts to reduce the net weight of the system, ... --------------56B9CFCD3F638EA2DAC5A53-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 10:04:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12054; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:00:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:00:46 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801031800.MAA06420 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments In-Reply-To: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> from Ed Wall at "Jan 3, 98 03:50:46 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:00:38 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"22tfx3.0.5y2.Cpdhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > I was attending some training a while back and was told by a pair of > technicians about always being careful to discharge capacitors that have > been stored for a while. They considered it common knowledge that > dangerous charges can get built up just sitting on the shelf. I tried not > to display my non-belief in their words, because I knew these men were quite > experienced. If you want to watch a capacitor recharge spontaneously, a good bet is your TV picture tube. Connect a wire to the system ground and then touch it to the HV anode connection on the side of the tube. You will see a spark. Hold the wire on the anode for a few seconds to be sure it is completely discharged. Now remove the wire and wait 10-15 minutes and repeat. You will often see another spark. What happened is that charges were not in immediate contact with the aluminized inner surface so they had to migrate. There might even be some sort of dielectric relaxation effect. Some of these sorts of things can occur in other types of capacitors. And one reason to discharge an unknown capacitor is the same reason to unload an unknown gun -- just in case. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 10:06:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13051; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:04:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:04:24 -0800 Message-ID: <34AE7DC8.91E0122A ro.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 12:04:56 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AF5F99573B3E34B74FA7F7DA" Resent-Message-ID: <"wSyRS1.0.rB3.csdhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AF5F99573B3E34B74FA7F7DA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Monteverde wrote: > Horace - > > I'm going for my > crackpot merit badge fer sure now. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Rick, Your excepshunal efforts have earned you this award. Paste and clip to yer webpage fer all the world t'see. Congratulations! /8^} -- Have a Good Day, Patrick V. 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cwEYikNoarP3il1YiVgngJmIeptniJyYgbB2hLpogkZIh4B4im7ofMcIg6bYhrOYjNAYjdI4 jdRYjdZ4jdiYjdq4jdzYjd74jeAoawEBAAA7 --------------AF5F99573B3E34B74FA7F7DA-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 11:54:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26658; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:50:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:50:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:53:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"h20lb1.0.MW6._Pfhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:00 PM 1/3/98, John Logajan wrote: [snip] > >What happened is that charges were not in immediate contact with the >aluminized inner surface so they had to migrate. There might even >be some sort of dielectric relaxation effect. [snip] This brings up another varible to track. That is the charging/discharging history. The spontaneous recharge is a time delayed, or lagging, effect. The spontaneous recharge currents in Rick's diagram may simply be a rahash of the charging history (in reverse.) Does the effect continue indefinitely without ever charging the capacitor again? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 11:57:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28152; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:55:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:55:20 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:53:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Infringement of Patents Resent-Message-ID: <"1sD-K2.0.jt6.bUfhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:35 AM 1/3/98, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: [snip] >The law quoted by Horace is obviously correct. However, it is noted a >patent only conferes an affirmative property right to the owner. [snip] > >All this litigation is extremely time consuming and very expensive. >Judgements and injunctions are generally limited to a District Courts >jurisdiction. [snip] Yes, all true. However, I think there is a more important moral issue invoved. It is important to know the law, especially the intent of the law, and, if not worthy of civil disobedience on moral grounds, to follow it. It's simply doing what is right. On a more practical note, civil suits in the US don't carry a sufficient penalty for loss of the suit, so there is a tendancy for frivilous lawsuits as well as a tendency to name in a suit everyone involved or even possibly involved in the alleged tort. It is a hunt for more pockets and deeper pockets. It is easy to get dragged into a suit, even though an innocent bystander, and, once named, you must pay to defend. Not everyone can afford to pick up and move, nor to defend himself in distric court. BTW, Richard, did you get your law degree *after* the medical degree? (That order makes a lot of sense! The doctors especially get raked over the coals by the lawyers. Better to be the raker than the rakee. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 12:24:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA32639; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:20:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:20:24 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:20:10 -0500 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Nasa's Antigravity Machine Resent-Message-ID: <"xH4Ip1.0.qz7.6sfhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Nasa's Antigravity Machine Popular Mechanics 03-JAN-98 By Jim Wilson * What goes up must come down. Well, maybe not. Later this month, NASA researchers hope to conduct an experiment that could determine if the force of gravity might someday be adjusted, like the volume of a radio. The space agency says that turning down the gravity in the immediate vicinity of a rocket would enable future spacecraft to roam the galaxy by using the tug of distant planets and stars. Scientists have historically dismissed talk of anti-gravity machines as utter nonsense. But at a rare, closed-door conference at NASA's Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio, scientists representing major universities, national weapons laboratories, defense contractors and the corporate research and development community gathered to hear a detailed account of the space agency's progress in attempting to build a machine that once seemed beyond the bounds of possibility. In a surprising departure from its, long-standing policy of openness, NASA did not invite the press to the conference. However, after, interviews with attendees, Popular Mechanics has learned that a group of researchers at NASA's Marshall Manned Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, has nearly completed building a device that could make it possible to reduce gravitational attractions in its immediate vicinity. Part of the reason for the secrecy is that the very thought of such a machine defies conventional scientific wisdom. To understand why, it's helpful to know there are two complementary but not entirely compatible explanations for gravity. Isaac Newton, the first physicist, described gravity as an attraction between two masses (see illustration at top of page). Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity suggests mass actually causes space-time to warp around it. Imagine, for instance, the indentation created by placing a bowling ball on a soft bed. Both theories explain why apples fall from trees. Scientists consider Einstein's theory superior because it explains also why light--which has no mass--appears to bend in strong gravitational fields. Light, as the theory goes, follows the mass-induced curve in space-time (see illustration on opposite page). Viewing gravity this way makes it more of a feature of the universe. It is for this reason that scientists consider the idea antigravity device preposterous. Well, most scientists, anyway. Ron Koczor, a researcher at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, who co-authored a paper on the Huntsville laboratory's gravity modification device that was presented at the conference, picks up the story. "In 1992, Dr. Eugene Podkletnov of Tampere University, Finland, published the results of his experiment with high-temperature ceramic superconductors," Koczor says. "He devised an experiment in which a disc of superconducting material was magnetically levitated and rotated at high speed, up to several thousand rpm, in the presence of an external magnetic field. In the course of the tests, Podkletnov noted that objects above the rotating disk showed a variable but measurable loss of weight, from less than .5% to about 2%. He had no explanation," explains Koczor. Podkletnov collected data from his experiments for nearly four years and compiled it in a paper that was accepted for publication in the prestigious Journal of Physics. But the paper never appeared. Several days before its scheduled publication in the fall of 1996, Podkletnov told his story to the London Sunday Telegraph. Other reporters attempting to confirm the story learned that one of Podkletnov's co-authors claimed to have never worked on the project. Podkletnov withdrew his paper and returned to the faculty of the Moscow Chemistry Science Research Centre. For many journalists, the situation was beginning to look like the cold fusion debacle. They quickly backed off from the story. Not everyone was dissuaded by Podkletnov's refusal to publish his work. Seven years earlier, Ning Li, a theorist who worked with NASA's Marshall center, had developed a theory suggesting that a superconductor rotated in a strong magnetic field could disrupt the gravitational force in its immediate vicinity. Three of her papers were subsequently published by major scientific journals. Currently a senior scientist on the research faculty of the University of Alabama in Huntsville, she has been helping to build the superconducting disc for the Marshall antigravity device for the past year. Whitt Brantley, the NASA-designated spokesman for the experiment who also is a member of the antigravity project, says the space agency's scientists decided last year to try to duplicate Podkletnov's machine by looking over his earlier research and exchanging information with him by telephone and e-mail. "Each time we contact him there seems to be more detail. It's sort of like chasing something," says Brantley. NASA isn't sure its antigravity machine, which is 90% complete, will work. At the moment, the biggest problem is building the fragile superconducting disc, which is, in fact, made of two discs, explains Brantley. One is made of metal that can be levitated in a magnetic field. On top of it is a composite made of superconducting materials. This assembly is housed in a 20-in.-dia. column that stands about 4 ft. tall. At the start of the experiment, it will be filled with liquid helium or nitrogen, which cools the apparatus to minus-400 [degrees] F. Only then is the disc set into motion. If the machine performs as Podkletnov claims, delicate instruments will show a diminution of gravity's tug. Brantley says researchers originally saw a slight gravity shielding effect when they placed instrumentation above a smaller, stationary disc. It turned out to be the result of the magnetic field. Adding ordinary 1/2-in. iron plates removed this anomaly. Some critics contend that if Podkletnov had taken a similar precaution, the effects that he observed would have likewise disappeared. Most physicists believe that when NASA flips the switch on its gravity modification experiment, absolutely nothing will happen. Then again, it could start the countdown to a bold new era in space exploration. Article Dated 02-JAN-98 COPYRIGHT 1997 Hearst Corporation. All rights reserved. Further reproduction prohibited. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 12:42:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02822; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:40:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:40:20 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34AE9246.4ABC4AF8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 14:32:22 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. References: <01bd16ea$122031a0$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"gYlmD2.0.0i.p8ghq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: ... If you know the Gravitational Potential, o* : o* = -GM/R^2 where G is the gravitational constant 6.67E-11, M is the mass of the "Star" and R is it's radius ... From this the change in local light speed c: c = c0(1 + o*/c^2) or since wavelength (lambda) equals c/f, f = f0(1 + o*/c^2). ... Going by this the Red Shift is most pronounced in small massive Stars or "Black Holes". :-) Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Conservation of energy requires that photon frequency change with the change in gravitational potential energy (i.e. the further out of a gravitational well the photon rises, the more energy it loses as it fights against the field, hence red shift). This in turn depends on distance from the centre of gravity, and has nothing to do with the size of the object in question, only on its mass, and the change in distance to the centre of that mass. ... R in the formula is in fact the distance from the centre of the body, and has nothing to do with its radius. This further implies that the red shift [of sunlight] "seen" by Jupiter is greater than that seen by Earth, Hi Frederick and Robin, Since f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), and R is the distance to a celestial object, how does one distinguish between the red shift due to the mass and distance of the celestial object and the Doppler red shift due to the velocity at which the object is supposedly moving away from the Earth? Is there something like the Doppler red shift from the Sun due to rotation? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 14:06:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14166; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:03:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:03:32 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:06:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Looking for Frank Znidarsic Resent-Message-ID: <"umV8Q3.0.GT3.pMhhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anybody know how to contact Frank Znidarsic? Thanks, Horace At 1:38 PM 1/2/98, Horace Heffner wrote: >At 4:40 PM 1/2/98, FZNIDARSIC wrote: [snip] >>FOR SALE >> >>1 - 3.25 inch superconducting disc with 1/2 hole in center. I cost me $750 >>from Gains superconductor and it was a leftover at reduced price. I let it go >>for 40% of what I paid for it. I paid $750. You can have it for $300. Do >>you own Tampere experiment at a reduced cost. >> >>Frank Znidarsic > > >Sold! > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner At 3:45 PM 1/2/98, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >Frank, > >I have tried to reach you at , but aol rejects the >messages. Could you send me a private email? Would like to get address to >mail check, & make other arrangements. Thanks. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 14:18:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16538; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:15:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:15:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34AED430.4E4A keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 16:13:36 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nasa's Antigravity Machine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cbqia2.0.G24.3Yhhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Ralpha et al! Finally, NASA is beginning to get the point....gravity is adjustable. Now let's see what approaches they take to resolving it and how much of that is shared with the public. At least its a start.....unless we beat'em to it.....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 14:25:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17176; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:18:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:18:19 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:21:25 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"bztJO1.0.BC4.gahhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:34 AM 1/3/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >To: Vortex > >The VLA "antenna farm" is about an hour drive >from my home. I drove past/through it last summer. Seems like a good way to >harness ZPE >if it exists. Otherwise the 27, 85 ft diameter >"dishes" could be used as "cups" for one Helluva Wind-Power machine. :-) > >http://www.nrao.edu/doc/vla/html/VLAintro/shtml > >Regards, Frederick Yes, those big ears on the VLA make for a good demonstration that low frequency energy from space carries very little energy. (Great for alien contact in the movies though!) Beyond that, if x-rays from space carried much energy, then ordinary photographic film would not last long. It seems there is no way to get much of a handle on ZPE, no way to focus much of it. If there is lots of it, it must be in a tenuous "virtual photon" state. So, the question is then , how do you focus, or evem interact with, virtual photons? Since virtual photons are involved with carrying the EM force, maybe the mode of interaction is through strong EM fields. (Anybody got a big capacitor handy? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 14:35:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13644; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:29:34 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:39:43 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"-ULdG2.0.wK3._khhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Does the effect continue indefinitely > without ever charging the capacitor > again? >From what I've seen, it's continuous. My reads have only been for a max of about three days, but the curves repeat. They're different each day, but basically they go again and again. See the graph of a longer term experiment at: http://www.soteria.com/brown/text/docs/graphics/tst106.jpg Also look here (the Maui people I mentioned): http://www.t-link.net/~aquarius/gwrphome/gravwave.htm for general history and some information on variants of the test circuitry for different ways of reading the changes that occur in dielectrics and even coils in one case. It seems people have been looking at this stuff for quite a while and in some detail too. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 14:35:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13688; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:29:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:29:35 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:45:07 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"NSuoG2.0.WL3.3lhhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Your curve may also correlate with > temperature. I think temperature gives them a boost - amplifying what's already there, but the basic shape of the curve is the same. I haven't done any insulated runs, but the TT Brown data is from temperature controlled natural rock 'capacitors'. The curves are there, basically the same deal. I'd like to see it insulated for myself, but I don't have any reason to doubt the data since it's not just TTB but quite a few people who have done these experiments and seen these effects. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 15:06:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18848; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE variations Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:00:39 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b000bb.106206238 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EH0Cg2.0.Pc4.lDihq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:48:55 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >>From the story I just read (I don't know if it's true), Hodowanec was >working on some sort of electronic scale when he found that the weight of >his reference weights were drifting around. His circuit to zero that out in >the scale became the basis for his detector. The thing is that without a >better description, I don't know if his circuit zeroed out electrical drift >in the circuitry of the scale, or if it zeroed out variations in the It seems that if he thought he was just zeroing out drift in the electronics, he wouldn't have called the thing a "detector". >circuit values *due* to changes in the actual momentary weight of the >weights. How could you differentiate the two anyway? If the actual weights are changing, then it would appear to be a change on a reasonable scale (i.e. at least a few cm), so if you put two otherwise identical scales next to one another, and you get a fair correlation between the changes in both scales, it's a fair bet that the cause is external to the scale. If there is little or no correlation, then it's probably just due to internal electronic drift. The more scales the better of course. It would also pay to provide electromagnetic shielding for some, but not for others, to see if this made a difference (external EM fields interfering with the electronics of the scales). >Isn't the yardstick changing along with the thing measured? I think electronic scales tend to counteract a change in weight by changing the attraction of a solenoid (change the current through the windings). If this is so, then the answer is no, I wouldn't expect both to react in the same way to the same stimulus. (i.e. gravitational and magnetic force). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 15:20:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27958; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:15:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:15:42 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:12:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd189d$0628a120$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"e0Ygw1.0.lq6.TQihq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack wrote >How do you tell the difference between >cosmological red-shift and gravitational >red-shift? Good question and a hotly debated one. :-) There are "objects" out there with red-shifts as high as 3.78 (the Sun 0.000002). Quasar 3c 273 is red-shifted 0.16 a red-shift of 0.1 means the object is moving away at about 0.1 c (18,600 mi/sec). >Does rotation of the Sun show Doppler shift? It should,but the 27 day rotation period isn't uniform for the whole body. The rotation of Venus, less than one revolution/year was determined by Doppler shift of radar signals sent from the Earth. But it's orbital velocity helped in determining this, I think. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 15:42:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24418; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:38:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:38:23 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:31:59 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b0c85a.157317630 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tzksE2.0.Sz5.klihq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:21:25 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >Since virtual photons are involved with carrying the EM force, maybe the >mode of interaction is through strong EM fields. (Anybody got a big >capacitor handy? 8^) Just suppose that there is an aether, and that it rotates about charge (i.e. the charge forms the axis about which it rotates). The larger the charge, the more aether will be swept up in the maelstrom, and the deeper the "vacuum" created. Put one of these over your head, and the aether from below will push you up, trying to get into that "vacuum" (in fact a real vacuum, not what we usually call a vacuum). Unfortunately the aether from above will also push you down for the same reason :(. So come on all you bright sparks, figure a way to make it even slightly asymmetrical. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 15:47:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25124; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:46:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:46:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:45:36 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: lauraconlon juno.com Subject: Re: Infringement of Patents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fptH93.0.U86.6tihq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: --------SNIP Lots of Legal-eeze -------- > (3) In any action for patent infringement brought under this > > section, no injunctive or other relief may be granted which would > > prohibit the making, using, offering to sell, or selling within the > > United States or importing into the United States of a patented invention > > under paragraph (1). > ---end snip--- ---GREAT News!!--- SELL that unit NOW.. with patent 4215330 It appears you have the right to MAKE & SELL as many 'Staggerd' Magnetic Inclined ramp "Permant Magnet Propulsion System (s)" (singular ramp) as you can produce!! How much $$ are they going for now?? I would probably *not* want too spend much over the cost of a 'smot i unit cost' as even THAT unit doesn't have the power of the NEW & Improved "V" stacked array design. Do you have a http://address or snail mail where I can get more spec's on the 4215330 units?? How many have you sold?? Is the original for sale?? The Design looks "solid", Is it? How long will it run for me? -------- The 4215330 Staggering of the magnets (required by the patent) is indeed UNIQUE! Very different from the Smot design is the staggering concept! (I would have thought that the left & right rocking of the ball would ADD friction).. As it's referenced 3263796 & 4074153 patents display. Thanks in advance. -=se=- P.S. I heard somewhere that the "Ball-Point Pen" is one of the MOST differently patented 'inventions' in the world... amazing -yes?? tube (with ink), spring, clicker cap (on some models). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 15:47:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA32110; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:44:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:44:23 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:43:57 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b1ca9f.157898678 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> In-Reply-To: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UFdYD1.0.Zr7.Mrihq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:50:46 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: [snip] >Now, battery activity could account for some charging, but what ambient >energy source could separate substantial amounts of charges without >rectification? [snip] I thought that if you connected an electrolytic capacitor up the wrong way, it would ruin it, due to current flowing and destroying the chemical boundary layer responsible for the capacitive action. So, suppose that only a very tiny current flows in the wrong direction, not enough to really harm the capacitor, but none flows in the other direction (the direction that normally charges the cap.). This would then seem to be a poor, but functional inherent diode. Any external source of EM radiation, of a sufficiently low frequency would charge the cap. eventually. Even EM resulting from lightning. (Broad spectrum). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 16:17:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00316; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:13:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:13:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AECE89.5406B874 tam.com.tr> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 02:49:29 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: temporary email addr. change Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YvvjH1.0.s4.zGjhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, Due to ISP problem, my primary email hamdix verisoft.com.tr is down since 2 days. I am switching to hamdix@tam.com.tr to receive vortex posting. Please use this addres for private mails and also if you had posting to vortex which should I read or reply, f orward them to my new address. hamdix tam.com.tr Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 16:18:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00860; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:16:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:16:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:11:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd18a5$52ed5d40$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Uv0Ah.0.LD.aJjhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 4:43 PM Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Robin wrote > >Just suppose that there is an aether, and that it rotates about charge >(i.e. the charge forms the axis about which it rotates). >The larger the charge, the more aether will be swept up in the >maelstrom, and the deeper the "vacuum" created. >Put one of these over your head, and the aether from below will push >you up, trying to get into that "vacuum" (in fact a real vacuum, not >what we usually call a vacuum). Unfortunately the aether from above >will also push you down for the same reason :(. >So come on all you bright sparks, figure a way to make it even >slightly asymmetrical. Rick's Capacitors are Asymmetrical. The self- polarization of the dielectric in effect creates an electrostatic diode or battery. This allows rectification of whatever fields can get into the capacitors,provided the layout isn't such that on side "bucks" the other. Que No? Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 16:21:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05328; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:17:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:17:10 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY. Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 00:16:41 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b2d3e2.160270396 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <01bd16ea$122031a0$LocalHost default> <34AE9246.4ABC4AF8@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> In-Reply-To: <34AE9246.4ABC4AF8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wBnRZ2.0.4J1.5Kjhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 14:32:22 -0500, Taylor J. Smith wrote: [snip] >Is there something like the Doppler red shift from >the Sun due to rotation? [snip] I would expect a Doppler red shift where the Sun rotates away, and a Doppler blue shift where it rotates towards us. If it aint there, I would be extremely surprised. (Though I don't know how sensitive detection equipment is). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 16:26:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06553; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:24:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:24:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:22:03 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd18a6$c856a040$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rhG943.0.Jc1.IRjhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments >On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:50:46 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: >[snip] >>Now, battery activity could account for some charging, but what ambient >>energy source could separate substantial amounts of charges without >>rectification? >[snip] >I thought that if you connected an electrolytic capacitor up the wrong >way, it would ruin it, due to current flowing and destroying the >chemical boundary layer responsible for the capacitive action. >So, suppose that only a very tiny current flows in the wrong >direction, not enough to really harm the capacitor, but none flows in >the other direction (the direction that normally charges the cap.). >This would then seem to be a poor, but functional inherent diode. >Any external source of EM radiation, of a sufficiently low frequency >would charge the cap. eventually. Even EM resulting from lightning. >(Broad spectrum). Right On, Robin. I just mailed a comment to this effect on (VLA ZPE Farm?) thread. Whether you like it or not the membranes-water (endolymph fluids)in your inner ear (cochlea) do this and can demodulate the airwaves. :-) Lots of people can be driven to distraction by this effect, if the signal levels are in the "window of effect" such that they don't override the "diode-battery" bias. Wonder what ZPE sounds like? The Taos Hum? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 16:55:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05778; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:52:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:52:21 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b1ca9f.157898678 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:51:43 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"5ZBNM.0.7Q1.2rjhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - On a batch of various electrolytic caps I tried, the accumulated voltage seems to be fairly evenly distributed between forward and 'reverse' voltage. I think Ed's question is important though, as these voltage changes aren't just in dielectrics, but apparently it applies to *all* dielectrics. If it was just a large number of 'coin tosses' from internal 1/f noise, you might expect it to either average out all the time or maybe show some of those waves that such random 50/50 trials show over time, but not the rythmic action people see here. I think the diode action is a good mystery, and might be a clue to the nature of the phenomena. TTB just sort of brushed it off as being some sort of natural internal diode rectification in the rock tests. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:03:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11697; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:58:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:58:38 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:58:57 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"-nPjq.0.ds2.ywjhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Since virtual photons are involved with > carrying the EM force, maybe the mode of > interaction is through strong EM fields. > (Anybody got a big capacitor handy? 8^) TTB had some... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:09:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06952; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:03:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:03:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:59:35 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd18ac$06b35720$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"b5JKV.0.Xi1.E_jhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The penetration depth (D)for an EM wave to be reduced to 1/2 it's space value in a material is: D = (Pi*frequency*permeability*conductivity)^-1/2. This coupled with ZPE working on the magnetic properties of RMOGs and SMOTs in a dynamic setup, might make believers out of all of us. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:15:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07431; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:10:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:10:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AEFCE0.1689 keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 19:07:12 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? References: <01bd18a5$52ed5d40$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6jXbT1.0.1q1.h5khq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Robin et al! Robin wrote > >Just suppose that there is an aether, and that it rotates about charge >(i.e. the charge forms the axis about which it rotates). >The larger the charge, the more aether will be swept up in the >maelstrom, and the deeper the "vacuum" created. >Put one of these over your head, and the aether from below will push >you up, trying to get into that "vacuum" (in fact a real vacuum, not >what we usually call a vacuum). Unfortunately the aether from above >will also push you down for the same reason :(. >So come on all you bright sparks, figure a way to make it even >slightly asymmetrical. The late Rho Sigma used a toroid, much like a smoke ring, where the spinning of the ring would suck air (or aether) through the hole and blow it out the bottom. This would give lift and thrust. >From the file http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/searl3.htm ; > The generator and craft therefore produce their own gravitation type > field. The net effect of the craft field plus the earth's gravitation > field gives rise to a condition where the ether density below the craft > is higher than that above it. The craft therefore is strongly repelled > from the planet. And to stop it from shooting off into space the field > of the craft must be intentionally PERTURBED. As with Hamel's machine, the claim is that air cannot remain at the center of the shift because of the high velocities, in fact, Hamel says his machine 'breathes' requiring vents in its construction....I've always found it interesting that a large air movement would provide extra ions that would be accumulated on the outside rim. If a static high voltage field is on this rim and the rim is rotated, it could act as a kind of ionic blade to move air and lift the craft. To move in space, it would have to move aether. High voltage seems to often be associated with free energy (Testatika, Hyde) The last I heard about Pierre Sinclair's duplication of the Hamel disk was that Hamel had provided more detail which Pierre is now incorporating into his design. The test was due in late summer 1997, now it has been postponed to allow for this upgrade. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:35:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09455; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:31:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:31:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:33:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE variations Resent-Message-ID: <"uKELT3.0.eJ2.JPkhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:00 PM 1/3/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:48:55 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >[snip] >>>From the story I just read (I don't know if it's true), Hodowanec was >>working on some sort of electronic scale when he found that the weight of >>his reference weights were drifting around. His circuit to zero that out in >>the scale became the basis for his detector. The thing is that without a >>better description, I don't know if his circuit zeroed out electrical drift >>in the circuitry of the scale, or if it zeroed out variations in the > >It seems that if he thought he was just zeroing out drift in the >electronics, he wouldn't have called the thing a "detector". > >>circuit values *due* to changes in the actual momentary weight of the >>weights. How could you differentiate the two anyway? One means is to compare results with an ordinary balance. Weights *do* change in apparent mass on a strain guage or solenoid type scale. This is due to bouyancy caused by thermal expansion, which can reduce or increase the apparent weight, depending on the coefficient of expansion vs. that of air at the weighing temperature. If you measure an item with approximately the same volume and same coefficient of thermal expansion as the balance weights, then the balance show a constant mass, while the scale will fluctuate in values depending on temperature. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:40:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17640; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:36:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:36:25 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:39:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"TikE.0.WJ4.NUkhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:31 PM 1/3/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >Just suppose that there is an aether, and that it rotates about charge >(i.e. the charge forms the axis about which it rotates). >The larger the charge, the more aether will be swept up in the >maelstrom, and the deeper the "vacuum" created. >Put one of these over your head, and the aether from below will push >you up, trying to get into that "vacuum" (in fact a real vacuum, not >what we usually call a vacuum). Unfortunately the aether from above >will also push you down for the same reason :(. >So come on all you bright sparks, figure a way to make it even >slightly asymmetrical. > Neat concept. Place these rotating charges in a strong magnetic field and they all line up. Then, the aether should be sucked in on the magnetic axis and shoved outward laterally. To make efficient would require very small structures, small towers, dendrites, extending from a thin film. The towers, immersed in an aligned magnetic field, would then suck aether from the back side of the foil and eject it sideways on the tower side of the foil. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:53:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11861; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:49:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:49:15 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 01:47:52 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b9e7e8.165396699 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <01bd18a5$52ed5d40$LocalHost default> <34AEFCE0.1689@keelynet.com> In-Reply-To: <34AEFCE0.1689 keelynet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CgN4Q3.0.Fv2.Ogkhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 03 Jan 1998 19:07:12 -0800, Jerry wrote: [snip] >The late Rho Sigma used a toroid, much like a smoke ring, where the >spinning of the ring would suck air (or aether) through the hole and blow >it out the bottom. This would give lift and thrust. [snip] Yes, a taurus has the right geometry. In fact even a simple charged ring should demonstrate the effect (If it exists :). Suggestion: | | | | | | | _ | / \ | | | | ring suspended by wires from sides \ _ / Wires are electrically shorted to ring which is conductor. Whole thing is charged to high voltage. Purpose of two wires is to prevent ring from rotating about vertical axis. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:58:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20423; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:56:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:56:47 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b0c85a.157317630 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:57:04 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"WrY7p1.0.y-4.Tnkhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > So come on all you bright sparks, figure a > way to make it even slightly asymmetrical. Did Faraday really say: "Capacitance is to Gravity as Inductance is to Magnetism"? Ancient Vedic literature makes reference to a type of vimana (general term for flying machine, some often fitting descriptions of UFOs) which operated on the basis of a hull material made of something which translates as "sound-alike". Sound-alike might mean resonant. Resonant to what? Noises in that "ocean of sound' that the ancients thought space was made of? Maybe there's a little bit of sound-alike in capacitors. Suppose that these capacitor changes discussed recently really do represent ZPE fluctuations, and things are always pulsing slightly in mass, but averaging out to some fixed value because of the jumble of waves. Now we make a circuit that detects the waves like Hodowanec did, but also selects a particularly powerful and rythmic component oriented in the direction we want to go. Then we mechanically or piezoelectrically drive a mass element back and forth in concert with these waves so that the mass is "heavy" at one direction reversal and "light" on the opposite transition. Thrust appears. This is like that patent - (forget the name) you know, making an alternating field and vibrating the mass in the field, only this is passive, tapping existing fields/waves that may be more powerful anyway. Only problem is, there has to be some compensating mass moving in the opposite direction to the vibrating target mass which is also simultaneously exposed to the same wave, so how does it keep from losing on the one hand what it gains from the target mass? Easy if something's bolted to the ground and has an attached movable target mass, but... Maybe sound-alike is also driven into vibration by these ZPE waves themselves. Even if they did, wouldn't it just be symmetrical inflation/deflation or similar mode? If capacitors are reacting to fundamental space fluctuations, then the fact that voltage appears on the plates may not be due to some steady solid state sort of diode action inherent in the chemistry (possibly indicated by the fact that the phenomena seems to be related to all dielectrics and not just select capacitor designs), but rather a dynamic action due to movement of the dielectric lattice within these wave phases, or perhaps other changes in its properties during the passage of the waves (like charge or permittivity). What appears on cap plates is assymetrical, and the persistent charge gradient thus created seems to maintain a preference to that specific assymetry. - Dull Spark, Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 17:59:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20574; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:57:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:57:56 -0800 Message-ID: <19980104015716.23966.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [130.184.14.148] From: "Chetter Hummin" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nasa's Antigravity Machine Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 17:57:15 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"R57iq.0.O15.Yokhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What if gravity is merely a ZPE pressure differential caused by the Mass (not quantity) eclipsing of ZPE, and this device merely re-directs the ZPE so that the pressure differential changes... If a conductor conducts energy, and ZPE is energy, would an imperfect conductor transmit more ZPE energy in some directions than others? Especially if the domains were aligned? (Magnetism.) And would not a superconductor rotating at high speeds be capable of re-directing the ZPE, which, if modulated properly, could counter the ZPE pressure differential we call gravity? Just a thought... ---- Hi Ralpha et al! Finally, NASA is beginning to get the point....gravity is adjustable. Now let's see what approaches they take to resolving it and how much of that is shared with the public. At least its a start.....unless we beat'em to it.....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 18:01:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12579; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:56:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:56:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:53:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd18b3$800d2680$fda6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"V1U_x2.0.T43.Ankhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 6:00 PM Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? >At 2:31 PM 1/3/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>So come on all you bright sparks, figure a way to make it even >>slightly asymmetrical. >> > >Neat concept. Place these rotating charges in a strong magnetic field and >they all line up. I think they call those rotating charges electrons. Then, the aether should be sucked in on the magnetic >axis and shoved outward laterally. Sounds "SMOTIE" to me. :-) To make efficient would require very >small structures, small towers, dendrites, extending from a thin film. Ferrite rods and steel balls do? The >towers, immersed in an aligned magnetic field, would then suck aether from >the back side of the foil and eject it sideways on the tower side of the >foil. Rolling balls do the same thing? Regards, FredericK > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 18:04:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21182; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:00:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:00:37 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 02:00:10 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34baec64.166545186 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fiM3y1.0.pA5.4rkhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:51:43 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Robin - > >On a batch of various electrolytic caps I tried, the accumulated voltage >seems to be fairly evenly distributed between forward and 'reverse' >voltage. I think Ed's question is important though, as these voltage >changes aren't just in dielectrics, but apparently it applies to *all* Was that meant to be "electrolytics"? >dielectrics. If it was just a large number of 'coin tosses' from internal Have you actually tried non-electrolytics? (Hard to find one large enough?) >1/f noise, you might expect it to either average out all the time or maybe >show some of those waves that such random 50/50 trials show over time, but >not the rythmic action people see here. I think the diode action is a good Which reminds me - I couldn't read the x-axis on those old graphs from '77. Could you tell us what it says? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 18:12:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22260; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:08:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:08:28 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b000bb.106206238 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:08:47 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: ZPE variations Resent-Message-ID: <"8k3Hu1.0.iR5.Rykhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > If the actual weights are changing, then it > would appear to be a change on a > reasonable scale (i.e. at least a few cm), so > if you put two otherwise identical scales > next to one another, and you get a fair > correlation between the changes in both > scales, it's a fair bet that the cause is > external to the scale. If there is little or no > correlation, then it's probably just due to > internal electronic drift. But the cap experiments by myself and especially others show that there tends to be good correspondence between caps ("electronic drift"), even if they are widely separated. Therefore the electronics on each scale are varying in concert - leaving open the question of whether it's really the mass or just the electronics. This assumes that both the electronic drift and a possible weight drift have the same remote, simultaneous, highly penetrating source. But if this source affects only the electronics but not really the weights, how would you know for sure if it was or was not affecting the weights? From the cap experiments we know for sure (ok, presumably, but just suppose for now) it is affecting the electronics. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 18:27:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16016; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:21:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:21:33 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34baec64.166545186 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:20:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"UlKEu2.0.9w3.h8lhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > Was that meant to be "electrolytics"? Yes, sorry. > Have you actually tried non-electrolytics? > (Hard to find one large enough?) Yes, and though they go to zero fast, you can see that there was some charge. Sometimes it was positive and sometimes negative. ;) Hey, TTB's rocks seemed to work pretty well. > Which reminds me - I couldn't read the > x-axis on those old graphs from '77. Could > you tell us what it says? The heavy lines are days. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 18:29:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17429; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:28:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:28:12 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b9e7e8.165396699 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <34AEFCE0.1689 keelynet.com> <01bd18a5$52ed5d40$LocalHost default> <34AEFCE0.1689@keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:27:28 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"asr9V3.0.EG4.tElhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > Yes, a taurus has the right geometry. In > fact even a simple charged ring should > demonstrate the effect (If it exists :). > Suggestion: > > > | | > | | > | | > | _ | > / \ > | | > | | ring suspended by > wires from sides > \ _ / LOL! that *is* a Taurus! No bull! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 18:40:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27028; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:36:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:36:53 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:37:07 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"rE-Ae1.0.7c6.3Nlhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I hope I'm not making everyone sick with this stuff, but here's my latest capacitor nonsense: I've seen the suggestion of putting caps in a centrifuge and, since I have a centrifuge in my garage (who doesn't?), I decided to amuse myself as follows: Centrifuge approx 300rpm, capacitors 4700uF taped to centrifuge, "hub" cap about three inches from hub center, "rim" cap about 30" from hub, time in minutes, volts in millivolts. Orientation is with the caps' cylindrical axis horizontal, and 90 deg. to the radial arm it's mounted on. spin start stop cap time volts volts change mv/min. hub 1 134.5 134.4 -0.1 -0.10 rim 1 100.7 100.5 -0.2 -0.20 ...and again ... hub 5.75 134.4 134.1 -0.3 -0.05 rim 5.75 100.5 99.8 -0.7 -0.12 By now I realize that the wind over the spinning 'fuge may be helping to discharge the caps, so in the following run the caps were placed inside plastic film cans. hub 6.5 134.1 134.2 0.1 0.02 rim 6.5 98.9 97 -1.9 -0.29 Now I'm tossing the film cans in the air and catching them for five minutes. Foam inside cans to keep the caps from banging around inside. A 5 134.2 134.9 0.7 0.14 B 5 95.4 94.7 -0.7 -0.14 This is all pretty ridiculous of course, except to note that the rim cap does seem to be discharged even when it's in a container. The "tossing" test proves beyond any doubt that tumbling capacitors around causes their voltage to change, sometimes even diverging symmetrically. I was hoping for some zero g effects, but it's too hard to make smooth motions and maintain the orientation. Wish I could test this on a ride on the Vomit Comet. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:07:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20020; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:51:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:51:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AEF8BD.DC2B80DC ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:49:33 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments References: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Pk8RN1.0.du4.9blhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You should try bi-polar electrolytic caps but dielectric caps are hard to get larger than about 200uf as you know.

you may want to see if other charged caps directly above or below the test cap have any effect on the charging effect, too bad this can't be done with parallel plate caps.

..
 >
~
 

Rick Monteverde wrote:

Robin -

On a batch of various electrolytic caps I tried, the accumulated voltage
seems to be fairly evenly distributed between forward and 'reverse'
voltage. I think Ed's question is important though, as these voltage
changes aren't just in dielectrics, but apparently it applies to *all*
dielectrics. If it was just a large number of 'coin tosses' from internal
1/f noise, you might expect it to either average out all the time or maybe
show some of those waves that such random 50/50 trials show over time, but
not the rythmic action people see here. I think the diode action is a good
mystery, and might be a clue to the nature of the phenomena. TTB just sort
of brushed it off as being some sort of natural internal diode
rectification in the rock tests.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:11:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA31164; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:07:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:07:40 -0800 Message-ID: <34AEFCEB.22BE interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 22:07:23 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 160 deg C drops decay rate? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pkbui3.0.sc7.wplhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is probably old news but I found it interesting in light of many recent posts: HIGH TEMPERATURE SUPPRESSES RADIOACTIVE DECAY Environmental conditions are not supposed to affect nuclear reactions in general or radioactive decay rates specifically. This is one reason why cold fusion got the cold shoulder from most physicists. Now for the "however" that is the hallmark of Science Frontiers : "Thirty years ago, Otto Reifen- schweiler was searching for a compound which could protect Geiger-Mueller tubes from damage when they are first ionised. He found the compound, which became a money-spinner for Philips, in a mixture of titanium and radioactive tritium. He also discovered that as the mixture was heated, its radioactivity declined sharply. No process known to physics could account for such a baffling phenomenon: radioactivity should be unaffected by heat. Nevertheless, as the temperature increased from 115°C to 160°C, the emission of beta particles fell by 28%." Reifenschweiler and his colleague, H. Casimir, put this discovery on the backburner and concentrated on the Geiger-Mueller tubes. The recent furor over cold fusion impelled them to resurrect the work and publish it in the January 3 issue of Physics Letters A. Is there a new phenomenon here? Is it relevant to cold fusion? It may be pertinent that some common fusion reactions also employ tritium. (Bown, William; "Ancient Experiment Turns Heat Up on Cold Fusion," New Scientist, p. 16, January 8, 1994.) Comment. How many other potential anomalies simmer neglected on backburners, while their discoverers focus upon more acceptable and profitable things? From Science Frontiers #92, MAR-APR 1994. İ 1997 William R. Corliss -----Apologies if this is stale. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:30:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24750; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:27:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:27:37 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE variations Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 03:26:12 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bbffbf.171500666 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0oJ2S3.0.d26.d6mhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:08:47 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >But the cap experiments by myself and especially others show that there >tends to be good correspondence between caps ("electronic drift"), even if >they are widely separated. Therefore the electronics on each scale are >varying in concert - leaving open the question of whether it's really the >mass or just the electronics. This assumes that both the electronic drift >and a possible weight drift have the same remote, simultaneous, highly >penetrating source. But if this source affects only the electronics but not >really the weights, how would you know for sure if it was or was not >affecting the weights? From the cap experiments we know for sure (ok, >presumably, but just suppose for now) it is affecting the electronics. [snip] If it does indeed affect both, then I guess you wouldn't know. However it seems to me that if you have tried various different forms of shielding, to no effect, then there is either way something interesting going on :). BTW I found http://www.dklabs.com fascinating, and it made me wonder just how many of the "strange" effects that crop up on vortex and free-nrg are explicable via this mechanism. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:33:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25350; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:30:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:30:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:23:47 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 160 deg C drops decay rate? In-Reply-To: <34AEFCEB.22BE interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id TAA25320 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hr6RU.0.xB6.O9mhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Temperature makes the Ti more permeable to the light atoms... so that they can escape. On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > This is probably old news but I found it interesting in light of many > recent posts: > > HIGH TEMPERATURE SUPPRESSES RADIOACTIVE DECAY > > Environmental conditions are not supposed to affect nuclear reactions in > general or > radioactive decay rates specifically. This is one reason why cold fusion > got the cold > shoulder from most physicists. Now for the "however" that is the > hallmark of Science > Frontiers : > > "Thirty years ago, Otto Reifen- schweiler was searching for a > compound > which could protect Geiger-Mueller tubes from damage when they are > first > ionised. He found the compound, which became a money-spinner for > Philips, in a mixture of titanium and radioactive tritium. He also > discovered > that as the mixture was heated, its radioactivity declined sharply. > No > process known to physics could account for such a baffling > phenomenon: Wrong. The metal permeability tells it all. > radioactivity should be unaffected by heat. Nevertheless, as the > temperature increased from 115°C to 160°C, the emission of beta > particles > fell by 28%." > > Reifenschweiler and his colleague, H. Casimir, put this discovery on the > backburner > and concentrated on the Geiger-Mueller tubes. The recent furor over cold > fusion > impelled them to resurrect the work and publish it in the January 3 > issue of Physics > Letters A. Is there a new phenomenon here? Is it relevant to cold > fusion? It may be > pertinent that some common fusion reactions also employ tritium. > > (Bown, William; "Ancient Experiment Turns Heat Up on Cold Fusion," New > Scientist, p. > 16, January 8, 1994.) > > Comment. How many other potential anomalies simmer neglected on > backburners, > while their discoverers focus upon more acceptable and profitable > things? > > From Science Frontiers #92, MAR-APR 1994. İ 1997 William R. > Corliss > > -----Apologies if this is stale. > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:35:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02090; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:32:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:32:03 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 03:31:36 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34be0249.172150203 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6SrMQ3.0.ZW.nAmhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:39:28 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >Neat concept. Place these rotating charges in a strong magnetic field and >they all line up. Then, the aether should be sucked in on the magnetic [snip] Thanks, I initially missed the alignment problem. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:37:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02369; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:33:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:33:58 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 03:33:33 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bf02b4.172257626 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <34AEFCE0.1689 keelynet.com> <01bd18a5$52ed5d40$LocalHost@default> <34AEFCE0.1689@keelynet.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nw2pf1.0.sa.aCmhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:27:28 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >LOL! that *is* a Taurus! No bull! > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > Yes, I know. What I meant was that it didn't need to be a "perfect" taurus (i.e. circular cross section). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:50:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27379; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:44:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:44:49 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 03:43:24 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34c1049c.172745713 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RHjLR.0.jh6.kMmhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:57:04 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >Ancient Vedic literature makes reference to a type of vimana (general term >for flying machine, some often fitting descriptions of UFOs) which >operated on the basis of a hull material made of something which translates >as "sound-alike". Sound-alike might mean resonant. Resonant to what? Noises >in that "ocean of sound' that the ancients thought space was made of? Maybe >there's a little bit of sound-alike in capacitors. [snip] Perhaps a "net" drift can be created, when a non-sinusoidal wave is used (e.g. saw-tooth). This in turn implies a combination of a base frequency with selected harmonics. Funny, reminds me of Keely! :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 19:51:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04892; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:47:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:47:49 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 03:47:18 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34c205d1.173054317 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7qptM1.0.MC1.ZPmhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 16:20:56 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Robin - > > > Was that meant to be "electrolytics"? > >Yes, sorry. > > > Have you actually tried non-electrolytics? > > (Hard to find one large enough?) > >Yes, and though they go to zero fast, you can see that there was some >charge. Sometimes it was positive and sometimes negative. ;) Are you careful to zero-out the meter before each measurement? (Sorry, I know it's trivial, but I have to ask). [snip] >The heavy lines are days. Thanks. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 20:05:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08976; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:01:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:01:45 -0800 Message-ID: <34AF09B2.173F interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:01:54 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 160 deg C drops decay rate? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I1juG.0.yB2.dcmhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Temperature makes the Ti more permeable to the light atoms... so > that they can escape. > I'm with you, John - I assumed these guys would guard against such things - especially with beta radiation. If they didn't, it's down the tubes! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 20:31:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12959; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:27:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:27:22 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <3cf47729.34af0e5e aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:21:48 EST To: rvanspaa eisa.net.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE question for Hal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"rBcq01.0.JA3.f-mhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/1/98 6:19:21 AM, rvanspaa eisa.net.au wrote: <> The ZPE spectrum are solutions of Maxwell's eqns, so whether standing or travelling waves, they are transverse. In that sense, no to the question. However, for waves in crystals in which EM waves interact with crystal vibrations, the combined wave system can have longitudinal components. Since such are harmonic oscillators, in quantization they are assigned the usual (1/2) X h-bar X omega energy and thus the formulas do apply. Just not in vacuum where the modes are presumably transverse. However, if longitudinal modes of some kind were to be found in vacuum, then they would be harmonic oscillators and the ZPE formulas would apply. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 20:52:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05729; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:47:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:47:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:40:45 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Artifact..... BULLETIN Re: 160 deg C drops decay rate? In-Reply-To: <34AF09B2.173F interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"STycr.0.RP1.FHnhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I have been in the science and odd science biz for years. I often see persons of people who should have 'contusions from leaping at conclusions' Not all can be faulted, some are well meaning, but have only limited knowledge, sometimes this is due to limited resources, or percieved limited resources. One really CAN find information, if they dig and do NOT depend on data bases and digital methods. Also: My self and friends have a practice we somtimes call 'casting out variables' ... we are usually fairly well versed in not only the instrumentatio, but also artifacts. We mentally use a wastebasket, usually a real one in the room... and SEARCH for effects which disprove our possible conclusion .... we have been know to spend 10 times the time and efforts of the experiment to 'fill the wastebasket'. If anyone wants to try to do this, especially in the domain of fields, magnetic, RF, electric and so on, it is well to learn the instrumentation ... and to 'live in the corner', what I call the low noise corner. Over the years I have collected from suplus buys usually things ot aid the 'corner', such as; sets of selected low noise transistors low noise circuit designs, often adapted from tube designs specialized materials These things are NOT cheap, but the results of such often exceeed the most expensive manufactured instrumentation. If any experimenters out there are serious, and have good electronics and transduction background, of assistance from someone who does, contact me off line and I may consider parting with some. My latest jealous acquisitions: 40 [that I might be willing to part with :)] selected matched U406 low noise Siliconx dual JFETS. These not only exhibit a BELIEVABLE sub 10 nanvolts root cps input referred noise, they are well matched and excel for differential work and also for matched gain control, logging and protection. Circuit and key semiconductor elements for discrete-IC hybrid Op Amp with NO popcorn noise. Electrometer can type FETS that operate easily to 100 to 400 mcps Old but UNUSED small signal germanium transistors Optical: Phosphors selective to long wave or short wave UV, ie, flouresces for one or the other Scintillation materials non linear polymers And other cool stuff no longer made. John On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > Temperature makes the Ti more permeable to the light atoms... so > > that they can escape. > > > > I'm with you, John - I assumed these guys would guard against such > things - especially with beta radiation. If they didn't, it's down > the tubes! > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 22:06:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16720; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:01:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:01:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:04:05 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Infringement of Patents Cc: lauraconlon juno.com Resent-Message-ID: <"mWEgY.0.A54.GNohq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:45 PM 1/3/98, Steve Ekwall wrote: >On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: >--------SNIP Lots of Legal-eeze -------- > >> (3) In any action for patent infringement brought under this >> >> section, no injunctive or other relief may be granted which would >> >> prohibit the making, using, offering to sell, or selling within the >> >> United States or importing into the United States of a patented invention >> >> under paragraph (1). >> ---end snip--- >---GREAT News!!--- SELL that unit NOW.. with patent 4215330 It appears Read more carefully and see the qualifications in paragraph (1) which apply to this. I think you will find you have to develop the invention through genetic manuipulation. It reads: "(e)(1) It shall not be an act of infringement to make, use, offer to sell, or sell within the United States or import into the United States a patented invention (other than a new animal drug or veterinary biological product (as those terms are used in the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act and the Act of March 4, 1913) which is primarily manufactured using recombinant DNA ..." >you have the right to MAKE & SELL as many 'Staggerd' Magnetic Inclined >ramp "Permant Magnet Propulsion System (s)" (singular ramp) as you can >produce!! How much $$ are they going for now?? I would probably *not* >want >too spend much over the cost of a 'smot i unit cost' as even THAT unit >doesn't have the power of the NEW & Improved "V" stacked array design. >Do you have a http://address or snail mail where I can get more spec's on >the 4215330 units?? How many have you sold?? Is the original for sale?? >The Design looks "solid", Is it? How long will it run for me? >-------- >The 4215330 Staggering of the magnets (required by the patent) is indeed >UNIQUE! Very different from the Smot design is the staggering concept! >(I would have thought that the left & right rocking of the ball >would ADD friction).. As it's referenced 3263796 & 4074153 patents >display. > >Thanks in advance. You seem to confusse the body of the patent with the claims. The claims determine the coverage of the patent. The body defines terms, teaches the art, and gives what is thought to be a best implementation. Many people make that mistake and focus on the drawings and body, and miss the really broad coverage provided by the claims. If you have any doubts about any of this, you should consult an attorney before manufacturing or using someone's invention. >-=se=- > >P.S. I heard somewhere that the "Ball-Point Pen" is one of the MOST >differently patented 'inventions' in the world... amazing -yes?? >tube (with ink), spring, clicker cap (on some models). There is always room for improvement. Also, it is often possible to negotiate good terms with those holding title to a superior patent so you can manufacture and sell your improvement. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 22:09:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16732; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:01:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:01:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:04:09 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"imqR41.0.L54.HNohq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:59 PM 1/3/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >To: Vortex > >The penetration depth (D)for an EM wave to >be reduced to 1/2 it's space value in a material is: > >D = (Pi*frequency*permeability*conductivity)^-1/2. > >This coupled with ZPE working on the magnetic >properties of RMOGs and SMOTs in a dynamic setup, >might make believers out of all of us. :-) > >Regards, Frederick How does this permit tapping ZPE? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 22:14:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA30407; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:09:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:09:00 -0800 Message-ID: <34AF265A.496A skylink.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 22:04:10 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments References: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mR5q-.0.xQ7.xTohq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > Now, battery activity could account for some charging, but what ambient > energy source could separate substantial amounts of charges without > rectification? It is possible to charge a capacitor by electrostatic induction. The only textbook I know which has any description of this is Jefimenko's "Electricity and Magnetism" -- see section 4-3, page 80. Someone also wrote an article about this once in Electric Spacecraft Journal. Sorry, I don't recall which edition. Anyhow, it is possible to do it. But it has always been a great puzzle to me -- where does the charge come from? How can it appear onto a capacitor without any lead connections? Bearden's article about the Fogal transistor invention, stikes me as operating in the same fashion. Charge is induced onto a capacitor from a high impedance circuit (open circuit electric potential- with no leads), and then current is switched from the inductively charged capacitor into a load in a low impedance circuit. Producing "free energy"? I think there have also been some studies of the electrical field of the earth, where the magnitude of the field has been found to have diurnal and sidereal time variations. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 22:20:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA32101; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:18:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:18:50 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:21:53 -0900 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"o0KzF.0.Ur7.9dohq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:53 PM 1/3/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Horace Heffner >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 6:00 PM >Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? > > >>At 2:31 PM 1/3/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > >>>So come on all you bright sparks, figure a way to make it even >>>slightly asymmetrical. >>> >> >>Neat concept. Place these rotating charges in a strong magnetic field and >>they all line up. > >I think they call those rotating charges electrons. You can't build structures out of electron. Fortunately, protons are rotating charges as well though. All you need then are atoms with large magnetic moment. > > Then, the aether should be sucked in on the magnetic >>axis and shoved outward laterally. > >Sounds "SMOTIE" to me. :-) Hey, I'm going along with the aether paradigm. Always brainstorm first, slash later. BTW, pleae explain SMOTIE. > > To make efficient would require very >>small structures, small towers, dendrites, extending from a thin film. > >Ferrite rods and steel balls do? One problem is the need to separate the vortex generating structures in order to get lateral breathing room for the aether. They must be of size about 10 A. Placing the purpendicular dendrites on the barrier film creates a macro level aether pressure differential across the film, while using the micro level components to vacuum the aether out from the back side of the film using nothing but atomic rotation, which is ZPE energized. > > The >>towers, immersed in an aligned magnetic field, would then suck aether from >>the back side of the foil and eject it sideways on the tower side of the >>foil. > >Rolling balls do the same thing? Not even close. Guess I am not communicating - even close. > >Regards, FredericK >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >> >> Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 3 23:29:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08220; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:20:36 -0800 Message-ID: <19980104072000.6630.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [130.184.14.151] From: "Chetter Hummin" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:19:59 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"wq8Kt.0.H02.2Xphq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What if ZPE isn't interacting with our universe as one single frequency? What would the frequency of the ZPE eminating from just one point in space? Would that be enough to hold matter together? Then how about a cubic mile? What if ZPE was a multi-frequency energy, similar to how white light is the composition of rbg? What if certain "frequencies" of ZPE caused different aspects of our universe to take form? Maybe not a frequency, but a pressure... An energy level... At this level, gravity exists... At that level, matter exists... At this level, subatomic particles exist. And so on, until you get to the point where not even time exists... Then controlling the entire Universe would be a matter of ZPE manipulations... ---- Perhaps a "net" drift can be created, when a non-sinusoidal wave is used (e.g. saw-tooth). This in turn implies a combination of a base frequency with selected harmonics. Funny, reminds me of Keely! :) ----------------- Chetter Hummin chetterhummin hotmail.com "We are always making progress in the field of Psychohistory..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 00:14:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14924; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:05:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:05:43 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:08:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Frederick J. Sparber" From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Resent-Message-ID: <"TnbuQ.0.ue3.KBqhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 6:53 PM 1/3/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >>Sounds "SMOTIE" to me. :-) At 9:21 PM 1/3/98, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >BTW, pleae explain SMOTIE. [snip] OH! Never mind! It finally dawned on me. You mean SMOTie, as in SMOT like! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 00:15:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15860; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:14:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:14:45 -0800 From: Geosas Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:09:00 EST To: monteverde WORLDNET.ATT.NET, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"f3t6D.0.kt3.qJqhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello there all - I read Rick's remarks on this with interest. I have a 16-channel 12-bit A-to-D converter card, at present in use for logging meteorological data, and could use some spare channels for long-term logging of capacitor voltages. You say that if I take a big electrolytic and use a high- impedance voltmeter (such as a CMOS-input op-amp) to log the voltage across it, there will be some correlation with sidereal time? Sidereal days are about 4 mins. shorter than solar days so logging over a long time will be required. I should point out that capacitors, especially electrolytics, are prone to relaxation effects. If you charge one up, leave it a while, discharge it, and monitor the voltage, it will rise again. Sometimes you can get a good spark off them with this effect. So a capacitor will take a long time to settle down since it was last charged, and there will still be battery-like effects going on in there. Best for '98, George. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 00:31:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01670; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:21:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:21:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:17:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd18e9$313a68c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"F2I3t3.0.-P.PQqhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 10:23 PM Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments >At 5:59 PM 1/3/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>To: Vortex >> >>The penetration depth (D)for an EM wave to >>be reduced to 1/2 it's space value in a material is: >> >>D = (Pi*frequency*permeability*conductivity)^-1/2. >> >>This coupled with ZPE working on the magnetic >>properties of RMOGs and SMOTs in a dynamic setup, >>might make believers out of all of us. :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > > >How does this permit tapping ZPE? 1, ZPE (ZERO POINT ENERGY)MUST BE AN ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVE, RIGHT? 2, IF the Wavelength is less than the atomic spacing of a material Which is mostly space anyhow, or if it follows EM RULES, it should follow the above equation. Thus, it can affect the magnetic properties of ferrimagnetic materials which have ferromagnetic properties (high permeabilities) but very low conductivities. Which means (according to the above equation) that D = (1/pi*f*k*Mu0*Mhos)^1/2 (meters) that the ZPE can penetrate the material and affect it's magnetic properties, by affecting the electron spin alignments etc. So if Greg Watson's RMOGs-SMOTs are functioning because of such ZPE interaction, Walla. GET IT? The Capacitor Effects in this Thread (which I suggested to Chris Tinsley and Hal Puthoff way back) "A Capacitive Accumulator For ZPE" could be seeing interaction, but not showing the "SWITCHING EFFECTS" that Might be showing up in the RMOGS-SMOTS. Look before you leap, Horace. Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 00:35:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17559; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:29:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:29:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34AF6414.441C keelynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 02:27:32 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Monopole Magnets References: <3.0.1.32.19980104013756.00756690 palacenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AtkGA2.0.CI4.hXqhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks! I recently was given two most peculiar magnets. They each consist of a 1" diameter piece of steel shaft in the form of two short cylinders about 1" long. What is peculiar, the inventor claims he has discovered how to make a true magnetic monopole, either South or North, your option. There is a small hole about 3/8" all the way through the center of each of these cylinder magnets. When you take these two pieces of steel and place the flat ends near each other, they attract as would happen with unlike poles N/S. If you flip one of the cylinders over the opposite flat end will also attract. The cylinders will stick to each other no matter where you touch them. There is almost imperceptible weakening in the attraction when one of the faces is brought to another, as if there is a hint of like polarity there (which would weaken the attraction by a very slight repulsion). It is most puzzling. What I would like to know, can anyone come up practical uses for a Monopole magnet since the inventor hasn't been able to find anything? Normally, N/N - repels S/S - repels N/S - attracts Normally a magnet has both a N and a S pole. These magnets appear to be one pure North pole and one pure South pole. I plan to test to see if the 3/8" hole through the center of each cylinder might be oppositely polarized to the outside surface area. The closest I have seen is a faux monopole as patented by Herb Wachspress as a toy. He places cylinder or bar magnets on the opposite ends of 3 axes, X, Y and Z so that you are using 6 magnets, all with a like polarity facing toward the center of this X,Y,Z sphere....when covered, it appears as a pure monopole on the outside of the sphere. Your constructive comments......are appreciated. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 01:24:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21486; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:15:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:15:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:18:31 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"YwOvg2.0.cF5.gCrhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:27 AM 1/4/98, Jerry wrote: >Hi Folks! > >I recently was given two most peculiar magnets. They each consist of >a 1" diameter piece of steel shaft in the form of two short cylinders >about 1" long. > >What is peculiar, the inventor claims he has discovered how to make a >true magnetic monopole, either South or North, your option. > >There is a small hole about 3/8" all the way through the center of each >of these cylinder magnets. > >When you take these two pieces of steel and place the flat ends near each >other, they attract as would happen with unlike poles N/S. If you flip >one of the cylinders over the opposite flat end will also attract. Could be one piece of steel and one magnet from what you have written. Could also be the magnetic axes are in an unusual configuration, like radial, e.g. one magnet is N on the inside of the hole and S on the outer rim, the other magnet reversed. > >The cylinders will stick to each other no matter where you touch them. Yes - sounds radial. However, I would expect some repulsion if the rim of one is stuck up against the hole of the other, say at a 90 deg. angle. > >There is almost imperceptible weakening in the attraction when one of the >faces is brought to another, as if there is a hint of like polarity there >(which would weaken the attraction by a very slight repulsion). > >It is most puzzling. What I would like to know, can anyone come up >practical uses for a Monopole magnet since the inventor hasn't been able >to find anything? > >Normally, N/N - repels S/S - repels N/S - attracts >Normally a magnet has both a N and a S pole. > >These magnets appear to be one pure North pole and one pure South pole. > >I plan to test to see if the 3/8" hole through the center of each >cylinder might be oppositely polarized to the outside surface area. > >The closest I have seen is a faux monopole as patented by Herb Wachspress >as a toy. He places cylinder or bar magnets on the opposite ends of 3 >axes, X, Y and Z so that you are using 6 magnets, all with a like >polarity facing toward the center of this X,Y,Z sphere....when covered, >it appears as a pure monopole on the outside of the sphere. > >Your constructive comments......are appreciated. [snip] The faux monopole has both outgoing and incoming filed lines (an equal number oddly enough!) Some iron filings should help clarify the picture with both the faux monopole and your friends magnets. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 01:31:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06951; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:24:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:24:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:26:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"Buq_c3.0.Xi1.4Lrhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:04 PM 1/3/98, Robert Stirniman wrote: [snip] >I think there have also been some studies of the electrical field >of the earth, where the magnitude of the field has been found to have >diurnal and sidereal time variations. There must be some daily variations due to the solar wind. If that's the cause then the variation in the polar regions should be much less than in Hawaii, and much larger everywhere during sunspot activity. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 01:50:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07643; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:43:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:43:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34c205d1.173054317 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:43:15 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"b9ghL3.0.Kt1.Ndrhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > Are you careful to zero-out the meter > before each measurement? (Sorry, I know > it's trivial, but I have to ask). No. I just turn the DMM on, set it to mv, and clip the leads (from across a resistor and through one more) to a capacitor and read. Takes a few seconds to climb up to a stable point, then I write that down and go to the next cap. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 01:52:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07887; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:49:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:49:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AF5ABA.7EED6926 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 22:47:43 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets References: <3.0.1.32.19980104013756.00756690 palacenet.net> <34AF6414.441C@keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sV9-m.0.8x1.2jrhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Place the magnet next to a wire and see if it wants to start orbiting the wire. Jerry wrote: > Hi Folks! > > I recently was given two most peculiar magnets. They each consist of > a 1" diameter piece of steel shaft in the form of two short cylinders > about 1" long. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 02:06:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25861; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:03:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:03:57 -0800 Message-ID: <34AF5E1F.43D87162 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 23:02:08 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets References: <3.0.1.32.19980104013756.00756690 palacenet.net> <34AF6414.441C@keelynet.com> <34AF5ABA.7EED6926@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1xu8E2.0.sJ6.Bwrhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: strange, accidental cross posting. oops! John Berry wrote: > Place the magnet next to a wire and see if it wants to start orbiting the > wire. > > Jerry wrote: > > > Hi Folks! > > > > I recently was given two most peculiar magnets. They each consist of > > a 1" diameter piece of steel shaft in the form of two short cylinders > > about 1" long. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 02:17:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27292; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:16:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:16:56 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:19:58 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: ZPE, Lamb's prize, VLA ZPE farm, and Hal's comments Resent-Message-ID: <"2gcT63.0.Lg6.N6shq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:01 PM 12/18/97, Puthoff wrote: > >The calculation is straightforward. Take an EM field in a cavity (The >universe is just a big cavity as a special case.) Decompose it into a >complete set of orthogonal modes (standing waves or propagating waves, your >choice). Quantize them. Assign (h-bar X omega)/2 energy to each mode in >accordance with the uncertainty principle. Multiply by the mode density (nr >of modes per unit frequency interval per unit volume that satisfy the boundary >conditions, (omega^2/pi^2 X c^3). You now have the energy per unit frequency >interval per unit volume rho = (h-bar X omega^3)/2 X pi^2 X c^3. > >This is not just my formula; it is everyone's formula. Any derivation of >Planck's formula that includes consideration of the vacuum fluctuations has >two terms; the term due to a thermal spectrum at some temperature T, and a >second term that remains even as T goes to zero. It is the term I derived >above. That is why it is called the zero-point energy term, because it >remains as T goes to zero. At 4:35 PM 12/19/97, Puthoff wrote: [snip] > >The ZPE model doesn't postulate that the vacuum has any mass. ZPE is said to >consist of "virtual photons." The statement you are probably referring to is >the one that "*if* the ZPE energy density were to be converted into mass >density via E = mc^2, it would be the *equivalent* of 10^94 g/cm^3." That is >not to say that the vacuum has mass; quite the contrary, since photons are >massless bosons. All this has me really stuggling for any kind of understanding. ZPE is a volume related effect. The universe is big. It seems like there should be too much radiation for life to continue. All we have is a dull 4 K background. I am curious as to exactly what the virtual photons can affect. The impression I am getting is that virtual photons in space are like waves on a waveless sea, which are only visible when breaking on shore. The waves mostly cancel at sea. Reminiscent of scalar EM waves, isn't it? If ZPE virtual photons account for atoms holding together, there must be a lot of energy involved. You need the right kind of beach for the waves to break? I am wondering if ZPE only acts on the field of a charged particle that is somehow distorted. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 02:19:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10296; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:17:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:17:10 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:16:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"VJcOd1.0.kW2.a6shq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George - Check out: http://www.newphys.se/elektromagnum/physics/KeelyNet/gravity/grav3.asc for the Hodowanec article, and http://www.t-link.net/~aquarius/gwrphome/gravwave.htm for a really good site with links. Be sure to follow the Townsend Brown links there to his 'petrovoltaic' stuff too. Good luck, and please post some curves or other info here if you get somethng running. I envy your automatic data acquisition. Doing it manually gets boring fast! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 03:12:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00647; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:09:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:09:35 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:12:41 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"0dPjf.0.1A.jtshq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:17 AM 1/4/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Horace Heffner [snip] >> >>How does this permit tapping ZPE? > >1, ZPE (ZERO POINT ENERGY)MUST BE AN ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVE, RIGHT? > >2, IF the Wavelength is less than the atomic >spacing of a material Which is mostly space >anyhow, or if it follows EM RULES, it >should follow the above equation. > >Thus, it can affect the magnetic properties of >ferrimagnetic materials which have ferromagnetic properties (high >permeabilities) but very low conductivities. > >Which means (according to the above equation) >that D = (1/pi*f*k*Mu0*Mhos)^1/2 (meters) >that the ZPE can penetrate the material and >affect it's magnetic properties, by affecting >the electron spin alignments etc. I don't have that understanding at all. I get the impression that ZPE is not absorbed, but is reflected by matter. If we had a way to absorb it and convert to heat - end of problem, provided there is much of it to go around. If it can not be absorbed, but can be directed by relection or refraction, then there is the potential for an inirtial drive (maybe with Isp infinity.) We can't seem to even be able to do that. > >So if Greg Watson's RMOGs-SMOTs are functioning because of such ZPE >interaction, Walla. GET IT? > >The Capacitor Effects in this Thread (which I >suggested to Chris Tinsley and Hal Puthoff way back) "A Capacitive >Accumulator For ZPE" could be seeing interaction, but not >showing the "SWITCHING EFFECTS" that Might be >showing up in the RMOGS-SMOTS. > >Look before you leap, Horace. Didn't leap, just asked the question. Always happy to leap, hop, skip, or dance in order to get a new idea though! Well, leap, hop, or skip anyway. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 03:20:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12742; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:17:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:17:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:20:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Resent-Message-ID: <"exK2X.0._63.Q_shq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:46 AM 1/1/98, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > > "At 9:14 PM 12/31/97, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > > "So there should be a column of rising air above a > concave shaving mirror lying face up on the table > (even at night in a dark room :)." > > If so, it would be imperceptable. Would be interesting > to try focusing ZPE on a Cavendish ball though. > Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying > it when he is done with his other work? > > Regards, Horace Heffner" > >Hi Horace, > >I'm definitely interested. > >Jack Smith Hi, Thanks for your interest. As you can see the idea is still going through the meat grinder. Don't know if anything will ever come out! Let's see how it goes. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 03:52:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13923; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:50:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:50:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 02:47:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Stripping by resonance Resent-Message-ID: <"_mkCD.0.SP3.BUthq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart." If this is true then it should be possible to flip the proton in the deuterium atoms, in D2O for example, using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), to achieve fission. Deuterium has a relatively low receptivity to NMR stimulation though. Flipping protons in other nuclei using NMR is not much in the way of an idea, but flipping the proton in deuterium seems very feasible. All you need is a two magnet poles, a sample of D2O in between, and a perpendicular coil with the resonant frequency. This strikes me as a really convenient way to produce neutrons. Isotope Magnetogyric NMR Frequency Ratio (MHz Relative to H) (10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1) 1H 26.7510 100.000000 2H 4.1064 15.351 Using the value 4.1064 10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1 I get 6.5355 MHz/T. It is fairly easy to get a uniform 0.1 T magnetic field using permanent magnets, so that would be a resonant frequency of 410,640 Hz in the 0.1 T field. Anything wrong with this idea? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 05:25:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09538; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 05:17:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 05:17:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980104081631.00e35cd8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 08:16:31 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: ZPE question for Hal In-Reply-To: <3cf47729.34af0e5e aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ga2xB.0.yK2.lluhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:21 PM 1/3/98 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote: > >In a message dated 1/1/98 6:19:21 AM, rvanspaa eisa.net.au wrote: > ><or travelling waves would fit equally well in you formulae. >Would this be equally true of longitudinal waves?>> > >The ZPE spectrum are solutions of Maxwell's eqns, so whether standing or >travelling waves, they are transverse. In that sense, no to the question. > >However, for waves in crystals in which EM waves interact with crystal >vibrations, the combined wave system can have longitudinal components. Since >such are harmonic oscillators, in quantization they are assigned the usual >(1/2) X h-bar X omega energy and thus the formulas do apply. Just not in >vacuum where the modes are presumably transverse. > >However, if longitudinal modes of some kind were to be found in vacuum, then >they would be harmonic oscillators and the ZPE formulas would apply. Hal: Am still trying to clarify what it is you MEAN by ZPE(vacuum)? ZPE(lattice) is real and acknowledged. Here are some questions which were never answered, yet remain important, about ZPE(vacuum). Have asked repeatedly for clarification if ZPE(vacuum) is actually just background radiation OR truly a result of the uncertainty principle. 1. If purported ZPE(vacuum) is background electromagnetic radiation penetrating through interplanetary space, then some call it "background EM radiation". Is it? 2. IF purported ZPE(vacuum) is based on the uncertainly principle, then where is the energy (and time) coming from to fill the TEM and other modes in a true vacuum? The equation when used correctly indicates a very short time, and a very small amount of energy. 3. What is ZPEc/ZPEv for 1 cm3 of matter and 1 cm3 of true vacuum? Thanks. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 07:13:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24170; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 07:10:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 07:10:36 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34AF967A.1755240 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 09:02:34 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jsJJo1.0.Nv5.fPwhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: ... Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE on a Cavendish ball though. Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying it when he is done with his other work? Jack Smith wrote: I'm definitely interested. Horace Heffner wrote: Hi, Thanks for your interest. As you can see the idea is still going through the meat grinder. Don't know if anything will ever come out! Let's see how it goes. Hi Horace, While we're kicking things around, is there some way to tie in capacitors? Rick's stuff is fascinating! I doing calibration runs with the Leybold. When I get decent results, I'll post them. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 08:26:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06248; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:21:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:21:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Lead Acid Storage Battery -ZPE Accumulator? Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:17:34 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd192c$43cb6320$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ClKyr3.0.YX1.TSxhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex For those who wish to experiment, I suggest obtaining a DRY Lead Acid Storage Battery and filling it with DRY Ethylene Glycol (Dielectric Constant 35, dipole moment, 2,28). About $5.00/gal at auto stores(TOXIC). Propylene Glycol (dielectric constant and dipole moment about the same as Prestone) but safe enough to be in your salad dressing can be used also. The arrangement of the plates in the lead-acid battery makes a good capacitor. The rest is up to the experimental expertise. Maybe, maybe not. :-) Regards, Frederick If worried From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 08:56:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12407; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:52:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:52:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34AFD8A2.6B0B keelynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 10:44:50 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets References: <3.0.1.32.19980104013756.00756690 palacenet.net> <34AF6414.441C@keelynet.com> <34AF5ABA.7EED6926@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"glRyn2.0.X13.bvxhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John! I'll try that with the magnet suspended from a string...I assume you mean the wire has a current flowing through it, DC? -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 09:43:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18780; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:40:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:40:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801041736.MAA23611 mercury.mv.net> Subject: MIT/Quaker Oats Settle Suit Date: Sun, 4 Jan 98 12:49:14 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"5dBsp2.0.Lb4.obyhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: Below is the Reuters report on a lawsuit settlement by MIT. We'll leave till early next century, if not sooner, the payment (in tarnished image) that MIT will have to make to settle the case of its abusive treatment of cold fusion. Gene Mallove (MIT Class of 1969, Aero/Astro) Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com ************************************* MIT, Quaker Oats Settle Radiation Lawsuit Copyright 1997 by Reuters ** via ClariNet ** / Wed, 31 Dec 1997 8:52:57 PST BOSTON (Reuters) - The Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Quaker Oats Co. agreed to pay $1.85 million to former students of a Massachusetts school used in radiation experiments without their knowledge 40 to 50 years ago, officials said Wednesday. The prestigious university will pay the bulk of the class-action settlement, approved by the U.S. District Court of Massachusetts Tuesday, for the controversial nutrition studies, MIT officials said. Members of the science club at the Fernald School in Waltham, Mass., were fed, without their knowledge, breakfast cereal and iron supplements contaminated with minute amounts of radiation between 1945 and 1956. Quaker Oats provided a grant to fund the research into how iron and calcium are absorbed by the human digestive system, MIT said. ``The exposures to radiation were approximately equal to the amount of natural background radiation we all receive from the environment each year,'' MIT said in a statement. ``Both a Commonwealth of Massachusetts and a federal investigation into of the studies found no discernible effects on health of study participants.'' At least 90 boys, aged 10 to 16, were used in the experiments, said Jeffrey Petrucelly, an attorney for the former students. They have only found out in the last two or three years about the radiation doses, he said. ``MIT and the school informed the parents the children would be involved in a science club learning about nutrition and science in general. In fact, they were experimented on with radioactive isotopes,'' Petrucelly said. Legal advertisements have been placed in newspapers across the state to contact former classmates of the settlement. MIT said it believes its researchers acted properly under existing standards of conduct. But the school agreed to the settlement to avoid the expense and diversion of a lengthy legal battle. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 10:01:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21493; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:58:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:58:50 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34b1ca9f.157898678 mail.eisa.net.au> <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:57:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Xmv1o2.0.kF5.Ptyhq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:51 PM -0500 1/3/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >dielectrics. If it was just a large number of 'coin tosses' from internal >1/f noise, you might expect it to either average out all the time or maybe >show some of those waves that such random 50/50 trials show over time, but >not the rythmic action people see here. I think the diode action is a good remember, the spectrum of a sawtooth wave form is 1/f. (try summing sin(nt)/n for n=1,2,3,... and see what you get). so, if you see something that looks like a sawtooth with, eg, a 24 hour period, there will be all those higher freq components. you may want to think about using an automated setup (a DVM with a PC interface) to increase the sample rate so that you can do meaningful FFT's on the data... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 10:22:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08045; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:18:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:18:44 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34c1049c.172745713 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:18:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: VLA ZPE Farm? Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"shEo9.0.cz1.2Azhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:43 PM -0500 1/3/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Perhaps a "net" drift can be created, when a non-sinusoidal wave is >used (e.g. saw-tooth). This in turn implies a combination of a base ^^^^^^^^^ >frequency with selected harmonics. Funny, reminds me of Keely! :) yes, there's the 1/f spectrum again... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 10:39:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11717; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:38:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:38:05 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:41:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: D2O NMR Reactor Resent-Message-ID: <"SJq0G1.0.ks2.BSzhq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart." If this is true then it should be possible to flip the proton in the deuterium atoms, in D2O for example, using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), to achieve fission. Deuterium has a relatively low receptivity to NMR stimulation though. Flipping protons in other nuclei using NMR is not much in the way of an idea, but flipping the proton in deuterium seems very feasible. All you need is a two magnet poles, a sample of D2O in between, and a perpendicular coil with the resonant frequency. This strikes me as a really convenient way to produce neutrons. Isotope Magnetogyric NMR Frequency Ratio (MHz Relative to H) (10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1) 1H 26.7510 100.000000 2H 4.1064 15.351 Using the value 4.1064 10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1 I get 6.5355 MHz/T. It is fairly easy to get a uniform 0.1 T magnetic field using permanent magnets, so that would be a resonant frequency of 410,640 Hz in the 0.1 T field. If nothing is wrong with the idea, then the neutron production could be used to create isotopes right in the D2O solution. For example tritium could be manufactured in this way. However, this only produces 18.6 KeV per atom, so is not good for energy production. A solution saturated in 7Li (i.e. LiOH) would produce lots of 9Li though, at 16.005 MeV per atom beta decay, and 0.84 s half life. Still this is not good for energy storage, due to the short half life of 8Li. Could produce 10Be from 9Be, but 10Be has too long a long half life (1.52 x 10^6 y) and small energy production at only 0.556 MeV. 12B production is another short half-life (24 ms) possibility with 11.71 MeV beta production. Here is a summary of some candidates: Daughter Parent Isotope Half Life Energy Cross Secion Decay modes (MeV) (Barns) 8Li 0.84 s 12.5 45 mb beta, alpha 10Be 1.52x10^6 y 0.5561 8.1 mb beta 12B 0.0202 s 13.369 5.3 mb beta, gamma 20F 11 s 7.029 9.5 mb beta, gamma 24Na 14.96 h 5.514 0.433 beta, gamma 32P 14.28 d 1.71 0.16 beta 36Cl 3.01x10^5 y 0.7083 43.7 beta, E.C.(1.142 MeV) 41Ca 1.03x10^5y 0.421 0.413 E.C. 46Sc 83.81 d 2.367 27.0? beta, gamma 52V 3.76 m 3.976 4.91 beta, gamma 56Mn 2.578 h 3.696 13.3 beta, gamma 60Co 5.271 y 2.824 58.8 beta, gamma etc. Note that none of these candidates create long term waste byproducts. Only 10Be, 36Cl, 41Ca and 60Co present storage problems, but even the intermediate half life of 60Co is very useful. From a cross section standpoint, Na, Cl, V, Mn, and Co look fairly good. A good candidate for an NMR reactor might be MnSiF6 dissolved in D2O. This would be nuclear waste free except for the structure. Use of quartz for structure and containment would help on that. Main problems are field magnets and exciter coils. Keeping a sufficient amount of water sheilding between the coils, magnets, and active resonance location should help keep activation of the coils and magnets to a minimum. SiO2 containment could be used to make a boundary between the radioactive D2O solution and sheilding H2O. It would take a fairly large reactor to be waste free for all practical purposes. The sheilding H2O would also produce D2O fuel. A Li jacket could also be used for the purpose of making both fuel and energy as with the D-T fusion reactor, but this would produce more waste unless contianment of this jacket were in quartz. A LiOH H2O solution might makje for a good contianment sheild. Regardless of all these kinds of considerations, the NMR reactor would be much cleaner than DT fusion, due to the ability to keep the reaction zone away from immediate contact with Al. The big question remains - how much neutron flux can be obtained from NMR excitement of D2O? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 11:22:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20441; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:18:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:18:01 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:18:18 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"IZhpK2.0.J_4.d1-hq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > I get the impression that ZPE is not > absorbed, but is reflected by matter. If we > had a way to absorb it and convert to heat - > end of problem, provided there is much of > it to go around. Doesn't *any* noticable interaction at all between matter and the ZPE imply the absorbtion of at least some energy? Unless of course reflections and refractions are at a perfect 100%, which never seems to be the case with 'normal' matter/energy interactions. Aren't those Casimir plates absorbing energy if they move or show real pressure effects at all? Couple of thought experiments: You have an aerostat in an atmosphere full of loud white noise. How do you engineer the device so it will sail on the sound waves? Buoyancy effects here aren't fair. Then for a second try, how would you do it again if all the materials available to you had a very near zero acoustic impedence with the surrounding gas - the sound tended to blow right through as if your machine were hardly there, merely imparting only a faint even pressure to all outer surfaces where what little impedence there is had its best shot? My guess is that in that second case, you'd try as hard as you can to engineer the impedence of your materials, and hunt for chronic discontinuities in the otherwise even background of noise. Tune to specific wavelengths and directions if you found discontinuities, as in louder noises from a certain spot. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 14:31:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25029; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:27:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:27:34 -0800 Message-ID: <34AFFF3B.5AA4 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:29:31 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Schatzkin: Farnsworth Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"LGwIt.0.t66.Kp0iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.telalink.net!usenet From: "The Perfesser" Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Farnsworth Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:51:39 -0600 Organization: Telalink Corporation, Nashville, TN, USA Message-ID: <68idcu$sfd apple.telalink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial3-dyn4-165.bna.telalink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 I invite readers of this news group learn a little more about Philo T. Farnsworth and discuss his fusion work at The Farnsworth Chronicles website http://songs.com/philo/fusion You'll find there an article from Borderlands which describes Farnsworth's very successful fusion experiments in the 1960s, as well as an extensive biography of Farnsworth's television research in the 1920's and 30's. --PS Paul Schatzkin perfessr songs.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 14:34:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04665; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:30:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:30:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:24:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith In-Reply-To: <34AF967A.1755240 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4BhG-.0.p81.Es0iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How do you focus ZPE? J On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > > ... Would be interesting to try focusing ZPE > on a Cavendish ball though. > Maybe Jack Smith would be interested in trying > it when he is done with his other work? > > Jack Smith wrote: > > I'm definitely interested. > > Horace Heffner wrote: > > Hi, Thanks for your interest. > As you can see the idea is still going through > the meat grinder. Don't know if anything will > ever come out! Let's see how it goes. > > Hi Horace, > > While we're kicking things around, is there > some way to tie in capacitors? Rick's > stuff is fascinating! > > I doing calibration runs with the Leybold. > When I get decent results, I'll post them. > > Jack Smith > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 14:36:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05181; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:33:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:33:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:35:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: What's cost of D2O these days? Resent-Message-ID: <"MSZyq2.0.pG1.8v0iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anybody know the cost of heavy water these days? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 15:20:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02393; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:16:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:16:21 -0800 Message-ID: <34B017A2.7EFF darknet.net> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 18:13:38 -0500 From: Steve Reply-To: darklord darknet.net Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner corecom.net Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7EQ0f1.0.Jb.4X1iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Anybody know the cost of heavy water these days? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Hi Horace, I work at a nuclear station in Canada, in the heavy water tech department. I'll talk to my supervisor, and see if I can find out the current cost for you tomorrow. :) ttyl -Steve -- darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 15:47:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06292; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:41:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:41:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:44:16 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: D2O NMR Reactor Resent-Message-ID: <"g6qgL2.0.9Y1.Mu1iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts Vorts! Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart." If this is true then it should be possible to flip the proton in the deuterium atoms, in D2O for example, using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR), to achieve fission. Deuterium has a relatively low receptivity to NMR stimulation though. Flipping protons in other nuclei using NMR is not much in the way of an idea, but flipping the proton in deuterium seems very feasible. All you need is a two magnet poles, a sample of D2O in between, and a perpendicular coil with the resonant frequency. This strikes me as a really convenient way to produce neutrons. Isotope Magnetogyric NMR Frequency Ratio (MHz Relative to H) (10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1) 1H 26.7510 100.000000 2H 4.1064 15.351 Using the value 4.1064 10^7 rad T^-1 s^-1 I get 6.5355 MHz/T. It is fairly easy to get a uniform 0.1 T magnetic field using permanent magnets, so that would be a resonant frequency of 410,640 Hz in the 0.1 T field. If nothing is wrong with the idea, then the neutron production could be used to create isotopes right in the D2O solution. For example tritium could be manufactured in this way. However, this only produces 18.6 KeV per atom, so is not good for energy production. A solution saturated in 7Li (i.e. LiOH) would produce lots of 8Li though, at 16.005 MeV per atom beta decay, and 0.84 s half life. Still this is not good for energy storage, due to the short half life of 8Li. Could produce 10Be from 9Be, but 10Be has too long a long half life (1.52 x 10^6 y) and small energy production at only 0.556 MeV. 12B production is another short half-life (24 ms) possibility with 11.71 MeV beta production. Here is a summary of some candidates: Daughter Parent Isotope Half Life Energy Cross Secion Decay modes (MeV) (Barns) 8Li 0.84 s 16.005 45 mb beta, alpha 10Be 1.52x10^6 y 0.5561 8.1 mb beta 12B 0.0202 s 13.369 5.3 mb beta, gamma 20F 11 s 7.029 9.5 mb beta, gamma 24Na 14.96 h 5.514 0.433 beta, gamma 32P 14.28 d 1.71 0.16 beta 36Cl 3.01x10^5 y 0.7083 43.7 beta, E.C.(1.142 MeV) 41Ca 1.03x10^5y 0.421 0.413 E.C. 46Sc 83.81 d 2.367 27.0? beta, gamma 52V 3.76 m 3.976 4.91 beta, gamma 56Mn 2.578 h 3.696 13.3 beta, gamma 60Co 5.271 y 2.824 58.8 beta, gamma etc. Note that none of these candidates create long term waste byproducts. Only 10Be, 36Cl, 41Ca and 60Co present storage problems, but even the intermediate half life of 60Co is very useful. From a cross section standpoint, Na, Cl, V, Mn, and Co look fairly good. A good candidate for an NMR reactor might be MnSiF6 dissolved in D2O. This would be nuclear waste free except for the structure. Use of quartz for structure and containment would help on that. Main problems are field magnets and exciter coils. Keeping a sufficient amount of water shielding between the coils, magnets, and active resonance location should help keep activation of the coils and magnets to a minimum. SiO2 containment could be used to make a boundary between the radioactive D2O solution and sheilding H2O. It would take a fairly large reactor to be waste free for all practical purposes. The shielding H2O would also produce D2O fuel. A Li jacket could also be used for the purpose of making both fuel and energy as with the D-T fusion reactor, but this would produce more waste unless contianment of this jacket were in quartz. Also, the neutrons from D are thermal, so the reaction n + Li7 --> Li6 + n + n is not present. A LiOH H2O solution might make for a good containment sheild. Regardless of all these kinds of considerations, the NMR reactor would be much cleaner than DT fusion, due to the ability to keep the reaction zone away from immediate contact with Al. The biggest problem in managing the neutrons in the D2O NMR Reactor design seems to be the D2 itself. The reaction: n + D --> T eats up the neutrons because D is the most common species. Fortunately the thermal neutron cross section for D is only 0.32 mb. If the water is a good mix of D2O and T2O, and even includes H2O, then it could end up being a neutron shell game, to get the neutron eventually to the target nucleus, that being Li7, Li8, Mn55, etc, the neutron plays a shell game in various reactions with various terminating ends: n + D --> T n + T --> 2 D + e- n + T --> D + n + n n + H --> D T --> He3 + e- n + He3 --> He4 + e- n + Li6 --> T + He4 It is also interesting that the reaction n + Li7 really takes shape as: N + Li7 --> Li8 --> e- + Be8 --> e- + He4 + He4 In various scenarios the final output is helium. Also of interest is the feasibility of running the reactor on only D and Li as input fuel. The suggested reactor can not multiply neutrons, is not a breader, so, assuming NMR can eventually release 100 percent of the neutrons at a low energy cost, and each neutron is worth, say, 10 MeV on average, the main issue comes down to the economics. The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use $0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy output E=(10^6 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^10 J/mol. At $2/mol the cost of the energy is 4.82x10^10 J/$. At 3600 J/KWh, we have 1.34x10^7 KWh/$. Assuming a plant efficienty of 1 percent, we still produce power at 1.34x10^5 KWh/$, which compares very favorably with present rates of appx. 10HWh/$. The rest of the economic determination depends on plant cost and that depends on the remaining question of how much neutron flux can be obtained from NMR excitement of D2O. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 15:50:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06889; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:46:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:46:57 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:50:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? Resent-Message-ID: <"SUrM03.0.Zh1.mz1iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:13 PM 1/4/98, Steve wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> Anybody know the cost of heavy water these days? >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner > >Hi Horace, > >I work at a nuclear station in Canada, in the heavy water tech >department. I'll talk to my supervisor, and see if I can find out the >current cost for you tomorrow. :) > >ttyl >-Steve >-- > darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 > DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net >Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion Wow, Thanks! Canada is the prime place to buy from I hear. UCANDO, you can do! 8^) Am personnaly interested in small quantity, say 100g, for experimenting, if you do that kind of thing, but also (mainly) in price in very large volume (i.e. Tons annually) for estimating purposes. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 15:56:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07869; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:53:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:53:37 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:56:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"onDvw.0.kw1._32iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace - > > > I get the impression that ZPE is not > > absorbed, but is reflected by matter. If we > > had a way to absorb it and convert to heat - > > end of problem, provided there is much of > > it to go around. > >Doesn't *any* noticable interaction at all between matter and the ZPE imply >the absorbtion of at least some energy? Unless of course reflections and >refractions are at a perfect 100%, which never seems to be the case with >'normal' matter/energy interactions. Aren't those Casimir plates absorbing >energy if they move or show real pressure effects at all? No, don't have to. Force is applied my momentum exchange. In fact more momentum (twice) is exchanged if there is no absorbtion. > >Couple of thought experiments: You have an aerostat in an atmosphere full >of loud white noise. How do you engineer the device so it will sail on the >sound waves? Buoyancy effects here aren't fair. Then for a second try, how >would you do it again if all the materials available to you had a very near >zero acoustic impedence with the surrounding gas - the sound tended to blow >right through as if your machine were hardly there, merely imparting only a >faint even pressure to all outer surfaces where what little impedence there >is had its best shot? Already did that I think. Focus and reflect downwards. If faint, build light. > >My guess is that in that second case, you'd try as hard as you can to >engineer the impedence of your materials, and hunt for chronic >discontinuities in the otherwise even background of noise. Tune to specific >wavelengths and directions if you found discontinuities, as in louder >noises from a certain spot. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Would also need good earplugs! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 16:05:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09448; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:00:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:00:32 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:00:11 -0500 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: zener diode oscillation and microplasma Resent-Message-ID: <"3ZHQW1.0.NJ2.TA2iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: so, I finally took the time to track down a thread, which I had heard about in sci.electronics.design, entitled "ZENER DIODE OSCILLATION." It's huge (226 messages), it started on July 10 and continued for a solid month. I haven't read the whole thing, but I did manage to grab a lot of the interesting stuff (29 messages) and put it in a file on my server (http://www.shore.net/~rmuha/physics/zenerosc.txt). It's big (181K), 67 printed pages of fascinating material. Apparently, started it out as a minor flame war [snip from "Mike" who originated the thread:] >Get off it - produce calculations, demonstrable theory, explanations that >work - or get off this newsgroup. [and later] > The people who report sightings of oscillating zeners claim it > was some time ago - before they learned much about electronics, > and before they should have learned it is highly unlikely. > > Apparently, they never did. Thus, they are unable to separate > fact from fiction, and are good candidates for theories on UFO's, > the Bermuda Triangle, and the lost city of Atlantis. > > That they do not know such a dividing line exists leave room for > doubt on the credibility of their postings. The fact they cross > the line into fantasy leaves little doubt about their competence. > > [...] > > Give me one URL, one reference, one app note, or one sample - > that's all I asked for in the beginning, and that's all I ask for > now. > > Failing that, it's a safe bet the only place oscillating zeners > exist is as power sources for UFO's. but quickly became a research project after somebody decided to try an experiment: [snip from Tony Williams:] > All those being sceptical about 1001% reliance on computer > simulation of circuitswere right.... > > I just tried it on the bench and it looks as though a zener > diode does have a negative-resistance region(s) at low > currents. > > Setup:- Variable supply, 0-28v, uAmmeter, 22k, zener. Scope > across the zener (79C10). > > Results:- Caution, the oscillations were difficult to lock > for any length of time, so I had to snatch approx > view and measurements. > > 1. 0.5uA (yes 1/2uA!) oscillation started, 60mV pk-pk, -ve > switch followed by ramp upwards. Classic relaxation > oscillator picture... volts increase to a region of > neg-R, sudden discharge, ramps back up to the neg-R region > again. > > 2. 80uA, same shape, 100mV pk-pk approx. > > 3. 100uA, difficult to see, but flat sections top and bottom, > >100mV pk-pk, going squarish maybe. > > 4. 160/170uA oscillation getting intermittant/disappearing. > > 5. >170uA no oscillation. At which point Winfield Hill, a research scientist at the Rowland Institute here in Cambridge and co-author of "The Art of Electronics," joined in. [snip from Winfield Hill:] >Below, the results of a few hours spent writing up a few minutes of > observation yesterday! > > The first zener diode I chose showed an incredibly strong relaxation- > oscillation effect, just as Tony described. It was a Motorola 1N5245B > with manufacturing code 939. This is a 15V 5% 1/2W zener with a small > opaque-grey glass body. Interestingly, the next diode in the 1N5245B > drawer showed little or no effect, so I went back to the first one for > a detailed examination. > > The amplitude of the spikes increased as I increased the current, > peaking around 50uA, where I took some more detailed measurements. > > /| 1N5245B at 50uA > 200mV FS / | > /| / | /| > /| / | /| / | /| / | /| > / | /| / | / | / | /| / | / |/ | /| _____ > | / |/ | /| / |/| / |/ | / |/ | / |/ | > |/ | / |/ |/|/ |/ | /|/ | > |/ |/ | > / > scope trace, continuous events, 10us FS 14.41 V > average value > > Spike charge and energy. At low currents, say below 5uA, this diode > seemed happy enough in its (avalanche) discharge, but at higher > currents the spike events would start, but in a curious way. > > The charge slope, which is 140mV/us, implies a circuit capacitance > (zener and cable) of about 314pF, but measuring this by adding a > 1000pF 2% cap in parallel showed an actual effective value of 217pF > (much higher than Motorola's typical values). For example, at 50uA, > apparently a steady non-event current of about 20uA is always flowing > and attempts to force higher currents through the zener are ignored, > but for no more than a hundred nanoseconds, or so. First the ignored > 30uA steadily charges the capacitance to a higher voltage. Then > suddenly some location inside the zener aggressively avalanches with > a discharge step ranging from -10 to -200mV, taking less than 10ns > (the limit of the scope I was using). > > Electrons per event. We see that the discharge suddenly grabs up to > 315pF * 205mV = 65pC from the capacitance, implying up to 6mA currents > and 400 million electrons in the event. The discharge events average > 90 million electrons, and few are less than 1/2 that. > > Spike period and statistics. The event-discharge time intervals are > quite regular for my diode, typically from 0.4 to 1.0us (0.2 to 1.5us > min/max). Observing with a 10us window, I _always_ count from 12 to > 15 events. This is 13.5 +/= 1.5 events/10us and is not at all like > the 13.5 +/- 7.2 (two sigma) we'd expect from random statistics. > This is more like a relaxation oscillator with a noisy threshold and > a noisy discharge step, and less like a chaotic or random process. > > [...] > > In their older literature, Motorola has an interesting voltage-noise > vs zener-voltage curve, which shows a strong peak near 15 to 20V, with > a noise density of 2500 uV/Hz^1/2 at 15V. Yes, 2.5mV - Hah! That works > out to 2.5V rms for a 1MHz bandwidth - I better recheck that number! [and] > >> Tony, I came across some very interesting remarks in Chapter 4 of the >> material in the Motorola TVS/Zener databook (1994 edition, page 11-18): >> >> "Between the minimum currents shown in Figure 4 and the >> leakage currents, there is the "knee" region. The avalanche >> mechanism may not occur simultaneously across the entire area >> of the P-N junction, but first at one microscopic site, then >> at an increasing number of sites as further voltage is applied. >> This action can be accounted for by the "microplasma discharge" >> theory and correlates with several breakdown characteristics. >> "An exaggerated view of the knee region is shown in Figure 5. >> As can be seen, the breakdown or avalanche current does not >> increase suddenly, but consists of smoothly rising current >> versus increments each with a sudden break point. >> "At the lowest point, the zener resistance (slope of the >> curve) would test high, but as current continues to climb, >> the resistance decreases. It is as though each discharge site >> has a high resistance with each succeeding site being in >> parallel until the total resustance is very small. >> "In addition to the resistive effects, the micro plasmas may >> act as noise generators. The exact process of manufacturing >> affects how high the noise will be, but in any event there will >> be some noise at the knee, and it will diminish considerably as >> current is allowed to increase." [and later] > > Well, the smooth curve of a zener knee is what started this > > particular thread. We all think (thought!) 'leakage' caused it. > > At this point we have an interesting picture of silicon-junction > avalanche breakdown, i.e. zener diode operation. It's an exotic > picture, not one usually put forward for our understanding of the use > of zener diodes. > > We're told in a series of papers in Physical Review by K.G. McKay, A.G. > Chenoweth, D.J. Rose, P.A. Wolff and S.L. Miller, in the mid-1950's, > that the junction current is not constant, but consists of current > through small microplasmas, turning on and off at different microscopic > locations within the junction. When on, each microplasma runs at full > strength, typically from 50 to 100uA in the junctions they used. > > Following Tony's approach of measuring current rather than voltage, I > set out to look for this in my Motorola 1N5245B test zener. Motorola > provides an extensive characterization of this series of zeners, > "general data 500mW" page 6-2 in the 1994 TVS/Zener book, including 18 > figures and 12 tables, but you won't find any information about this > very fundamental operating parameter for zener diodes. > >[...] > >It worked very well. The diode was quiet most of the time, but erupted >into microplasma discharges often enough to consume 17uA on average. > >The uniformity of microplasma currents was very apparent. For my >diode, they all were about 40uA. Therefore the total zener current, a >function how many microplasmas were running at once, was always some >multiple of 40uA. Of course, since my average supplied current was >only 17uA, the higher 40*N currents could only be sustained for a small >fraction of the time, and most of the time the diode would be off, as >expected. It's this aspect about which the average zener user is >unaware, myself included a month ago. Could this be used as a scalar detector? Running a diode in this way seems quite similar to running a neon bulb in starvation mode (isn't that another name for 'abnormal glow region'?), just at the point of turn-on. r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 16:10:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12165; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:06:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:06:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34B023C7.B1F1D30 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 13:05:27 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets References: <3.0.1.32.19980104013756.00756690 palacenet.net> <34AF6414.441C@keelynet.com> <34AF5ABA.7EED6926@ihug.co.nz> <34AFD8A2.6B0B@keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KmuQE2.0.jz2.JG2iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes a DC current, I am not sure it will work but it seems quite plausible, Also if it just orbits the wire and does not rotate it may not induce the wire. as seen from above: o -wire electrons going down (high current) N -north mono-pole (anti-clockwise orbit) Jerry wrote: > Hi John! > > I'll try that with the magnet suspended from a string...I assume you mean > the wire has a current flowing through it, DC? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 16:12:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11399; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:05:01 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:08:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Resent-Message-ID: <"8hOVu3.0.-n2.gE2iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:24 PM 1/4/98, John Schnurer wrote: > How do you focus ZPE? > > J Yes, John that is an important question. I have put forward some ideas for testing, based on the notion ZPE is ordinary photons in space. Do you have any? This *is* just a brainstoming session you know. First, it would be nice to establish if ZPE exists in a vacuum, and in enough quantity to be worth focusing, or in a form capable of being focused. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 16:19:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15729; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:17:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:17:25 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:11:51 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_Za5O1.0.br3.KQ2iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Horace, ZPE too me is as clear as Beardon's 'scalar waves' .... What I need to see if to have someone say: Something like; Take 10 inches of iron, 30 turns of copper insulated wire, a mirror, and magnet .... Put them together as so and so ... And you will see thus and such ... Hardball, nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders engineering. John On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 5:24 PM 1/4/98, John Schnurer wrote: > > How do you focus ZPE? > > > > J > > > Yes, John that is an important question. I have put forward some ideas for > testing, based on the notion ZPE is ordinary photons in space. Do you have > any? This *is* just a brainstoming session you know. > > First, it would be nice to establish if ZPE exists in a vacuum, and in > enough quantity to be worth focusing, or in a form capable of being > focused. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 16:21:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16241; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:20:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:20:28 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:14:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: zener diode oscillation and microplasma In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CPx482.0.ez3.AT2iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Zener diodes oscillate, as do many non linear and linear elements. Microplasma is exploited by noise diodes. The two anr NOT the same thing, but can be, depending on the element. In this discussion 'element' means electronic element. John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 18:04:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02139; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:00:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:00:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980104195232.0080d310 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 19:52:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BiOpl3.0.HX.cw3iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:35 PM 1/4/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >Anybody know the cost of heavy water these days? ~$400/liter for 99.9% purity from Aldrich. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 19:50:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16179; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:37:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:37:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:39:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? Resent-Message-ID: <"tdp5Q1.0.jy3.cL5iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:52 PM 1/4/98, Scott Little wrote: >At 01:35 PM 1/4/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >>Anybody know the cost of heavy water these days? > >~$400/liter for 99.9% purity from Aldrich. Great! Thanks. It's still in the 1993-94 price range then. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 20:37:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02701; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:33:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:33:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34B0621E.76DF76E4 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 17:31:27 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0zMSO.0.zf.z96iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As you can use lower purity heavy water would the price drop substantially? can you use normal water (maybe water naturally high in D20) or would that have too low a concentration? Horace Heffner wrote: > At 7:52 PM 1/4/98, Scott Little wrote: > >At 01:35 PM 1/4/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Anybody know the cost of heavy water these days? > > > >~$400/liter for 99.9% purity from Aldrich. > > Great! Thanks. It's still in the 1993-94 price range then. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 22:26:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08817; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:18:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:18:35 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:16:48 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b86dbe.21640215 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PWF5N3.0.h92.wi7iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:41:01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >If nothing is wrong with the idea, then the neutron production could be >used to create isotopes right in the D2O solution. For example tritium >could be manufactured in this way. However, this only produces 18.6 KeV >per atom, so is not good for energy production. Horace I'm finding it a bit difficult to figure out what you are using as a basis for your calculations. I get: D -> n + H - 2.2 MeV D + n -> T + 6.3 MeV -------------------- 2 x D -> T + H + 4 MeV (But even 18.6 keV sounds a lot better to me than ~1 eV that we get from chemical reactions :). >A solution saturated in >7Li (i.e. LiOH) would produce lots of 9Li though, at 16.005 MeV per atom How do you jump from 7Li to 9Li? >beta decay, and 0.84 s half life. Still this is not good for energy >storage, due to the short half life of 8Li. Could produce 10Be from 9Be, Now suddenly it's 8Li? [snip] Try 10B + n -> 4He + 7Li + 2.8 MeV (thermal neutron cross section of 10B is 3840 barns; its a real "sponge" :). Any soluble B compound would probably do the trick, and it's a nice clean reaction with stable products. Also the cross section is huge compared to the alternatives. (They use B in nuclear reactors to "damp down" the reactor). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 22:26:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27406; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:18:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:18:01 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:17:06 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b560c8.18321473 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q4uad1.0.1i6.Ni7iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:43:15 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Robin - > > > Are you careful to zero-out the meter > > before each measurement? (Sorry, I know > > it's trivial, but I have to ask). > >No. I just turn the DMM on, set it to mv, and clip the leads (from across a >resistor and through one more) to a capacitor and read. Takes a few seconds >to climb up to a stable point, then I write that down and go to the next >cap. Hi Rick, AFAIK, high impedance opamps tend to have a small but finite input capacitance. If you measure through a large resistor, then charge accumulated in the small input cap. might upset the next reading. So personally, I would be inclined to short the input between readings, to get a stable 0 reading. If this is utter nonsense, then please anyone feel free to speak up. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 22:33:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA30162; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:29:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:29:16 -0800 Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 20:11:50 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <34afd0f1.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Subject: Asti Report Resent-Message-ID: <"nxpDb3.0.9N7.vs7iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vortexers, I completely agree with Bart that the Asti Workshop was perfectly organized and was a kind of a PILOT for ICCF-7. My notes re some of the papers and posters are added. Peter Francesco Premuda: "A Unified Theory of Cold Fusion and Superconductivity" Premuda has presented his theory based on the possible formation of special zones in plasma localized in the defect places of the lattice. The ideas have been presented in a very highly mathematized manner. This paper has to be studied in extenso. An important aspect is the that of the dimensional, structural and functional characteristics of that peculiar places in the lattice; an adequate description/model has to be found. Premuda's theory is stimulating this endeavor. Vittorio Violante: "Lattice Confinement- A Possible Mechanism for Producing Collisions in Dense Matter" A theoretical study demonstrating that nuclear reactions in the lattice are possible due to the combined effects of trap force, electrostatic interaction, and non-linearity. Both the classical representation and the quantum mechanical one show an interaction effect between deuterons in the lattice. A theoretical "new wave" work, with many Italian supporters. Posters. Fulvio Frisone: "Study on the probability of interaction between the plasmons of metal and deuterons" A theoretical work; the author has studied the influence of impurity concentration on the phenomenon of fusing of deuterons, catalyzed by the "efficacious" interaction with the plasmons of the metal. The numeric calculation, conducted on different metals considering the degree of impurities present in the reticulum, shows that the probability of fusion is amplified by the impurities. This result is confirmed qualitatively by the trend of the potential gap that describes the interaction inside the metal (and by many experimental data). Lino Daddi: "On the detection of cold fusion neutrons by radioactivation" An experimental study and tutorial, describing the principle and practical application of the radioactivation method, specific for the detection of neutrons. A very important example of application of the method to the Siena experiment is presented, where gold activation was used (to be published in Il Nuovo Cimento). The method can be used for both the cases of continuous or burst- like neutron emissions. C. Cammarota, W. Collis, A. Rizzo, C. Stremmenos: "Calorimetric measurements on nickel samples charged with hydrogen"(in Italian) An experimental study, demonstrating exothermal reactions in the system (81 Mcal/mol Ni in 35 days), local melting (!), and formation of craters on the surface of the sample. New elements appear in these craters (study continuing). It is a very important achievement, because it uses flow calorimetry for successfully confirming the Piantelli et al. process. -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 22:34:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08888; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:18:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:18:59 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, VLA ZPE farm, and Hal's comments Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:17:08 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b6664a.19732214 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"slJ3N1.0.mA2.Gj7iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:19:58 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >All this has me really stuggling for any kind of understanding. It kind of keeps me going too :). I came across a statement once, to the effect that standing waves don't transport energy. So I began to think that this might be the reason why we couldn't detect them. (Although someone told me a while back that H. Hertz had done phase measurements on standing waves, and determined that the electric and magnetic components were 90 deg. out of phase.) This appears to imply that even standing waves can easily be detected, and even measured. This leads then to the inevitable question: If the ZPE has a cubic frequency distribution, then presumably some of that exists at radio frequencies, and should be easily measurable. If it can't be, then perhaps the waves are longitudinal, not transverse? The only other alternative I can see is that the waves are largely internal to sub-atomic particles, not external (Hi there FS :). Though there would still appear to be some external "leakage" to account for all the quantum interactions we see. [snip] >I am wondering if ZPE only acts on the field of a charged particle that is >somehow distorted. [snip] There seems to be a pretty strong correlation between mass and charge. (Existence not value). From this it would seem easy to infer that charge interacts directly with the EM waves of the ZPE, resulting in a localised "random walk" about an average position. The kinetic energy involved in this "walk", is the mass of the particle. (See Hal's papers for a better description of this). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 22:53:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00682; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:49:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:49:36 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 21:52:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? Resent-Message-ID: <"TZ-sp1.0.aA._98iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:31 PM 1/5/98, John Berry wrote: >As you can use lower purity heavy water would the price drop >substantially? Yes. >can you use normal water (maybe water naturally high in D20) or would >that have too low a concentration? > I don't know what the ideal percentage would be yet, but suspect that it is less than pure, and maybe even less than 50 percent. Part of a design objective would be to make the ratio of the D cross section to other cross sections as small as possible to avoid creating T. The trick is to give the neutrons as many passes at their target as possible witout disintegrating into a proton and electron, and without hitting a deuteron. The neutron hitting an H, and thus recovering the D, just gives more holding time for the neutron. There are many design options, like using mixtures of LiD and LiH, and Mn, for example. Another might be D2O, H2O, and Mn in slurry form, or maybe a D and Li, or even a D, Li, and Mn hot gass mixture. There are many possibilities. For initital tests much less than pure D2O or LiD would be fine. Ordinary water is 1/4000, and that might even be sufficient to begin some tests, but I would personally prefer more than that, as I suspect the effect might be very small, and would hate to give up when something might be detectable in a higher concentration. The first order of business is to deterimne whether NMR, or NMR in combination with stripping, might have a sufficient reaction rate to make a commercial reactor viable. Without knowing reaction rates and input energies, it is not possible to determine an ideal configuration. For all I know, an ordinary stripping reactor using D and Mn, or D and Co, or some other combination, might be commercially feasible, and missed by others (but I doubt it.) Co could certainly make for some good batteries! Another factor is the minimum magnetic field stength required for the resonance to build to an energy level sufficient to cause a D2 fission. It could possibly be well beyond the capability of permanent magnets. This could be calculated I think. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 23:24:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04887; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:19:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:19:34 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:22:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Resent-Message-ID: <"wOUiX1.0.CC1.5c8iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:16 PM 1/4/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:41:01 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >[snip] >>If nothing is wrong with the idea, then the neutron production could be >>used to create isotopes right in the D2O solution. For example tritium >>could be manufactured in this way. However, this only produces 18.6 KeV >>per atom, so is not good for energy production. > >Horace I'm finding it a bit difficult to figure out what you are using >as a basis for your calculations. > >I get: > >D -> n + H - 2.2 MeV > >D + n -> T + 6.3 MeV >-------------------- >2 x D -> T + H + 4 MeV Gee, that's right, I forgot about the D + n --> T 6.3 MeV weight loss! That's the good side. However, I dont see how D -> n + H - 2.2 MeV jives with the following: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - At 5:30 PM 12/3/97, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and >neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin >of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Maybe it is the "borrowing" part that is important, implying that a stripping collision is very important. I didn't think about the fact 2.2 MeV is being borrowed. B could be a very important ingredient for pulling off the initial stripping (borrowing) act. I don't see how it can take 2.2 MeV to flip a nucleon! > >(But even 18.6 keV sounds a lot better to me than ~1 eV that we get >from chemical reactions :). Ditto. I'm tired of wimpy things - looking for ROBUST, as are we all... 8^) > >>A solution saturated in >>7Li (i.e. LiOH) would produce lots of 9Li though, at 16.005 MeV per atom > >How do you jump from 7Li to 9Li? By hitting the wrong key. 8^) That's suposed to be 8Li, not 9Li, as is evident from the table and discussion. > >>beta decay, and 0.84 s half life. Still this is not good for energy >>storage, due to the short half life of 8Li. Could produce 10Be from 9Be, > >Now suddenly it's 8Li? See - I told you so! 9^) >[snip] > >Try 10B + n -> 4He + 7Li + 2.8 MeV >(thermal neutron cross section of 10B is 3840 barns; its a real >"sponge" :). That looks like a fast neutron reaction you are quoting. Everything is slow neutrons here. You get 10B + n -> 11B, which is OK. >Any soluble B compound would probably do the trick, and it's a nice >clean reaction with stable products. Only 10B and 11B are common isotopes of B (the only ones). One of the nifty things about all this is that things seem to work in normally available isotopic concentrations - provided the D2 fission can be carried out magically. >Also the cross section is huge compared to the alternatives. >(They use B in nuclear reactors to "damp down" the reactor). Yes. BTW all this talk makes me wonder if D2 fission is not tied into cold fusion in some manner. The borrowing D2 fission-exchange would hide the neutron transfer. Even the plain water cells (e.g Ni-H2O) have some D. Not a new thought, I know. Just need an output slightly bigger than the 2.2 MeV borrowed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 23:33:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15018; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:30:45 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? Resent-Message-ID: <"JsaMi2.0.Zg3.Sk8iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:52 PM 1/4/98, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >I don't know what the ideal percentage would be yet, but suspect that it is >less than pure, and maybe even less than 50 percent. Part of a design >objective would be to make the ratio of the D cross section to other cross >sections as small as possible to avoid creating T. The trick is to give >the neutrons as many passes at their target as possible witout >disintegrating into a proton and electron, and without hitting a deuteron. >The neutron hitting an H, and thus recovering the D, just gives more >holding time for the neutron. Well that's all wrong isn't it? Ideal is no H2O, but a lot less than pure should work fine. >There are many design options, like using >mixtures of LiD and LiH, and Mn, for example. Another might be D2O, H2O, >and Mn in slurry form, or maybe a D and Li, or even a D, Li, and Mn hot >gass mixture. There are many possibilities. [snip] Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 23:38:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA06881; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:36:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:36:00 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:35:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801050735.XAA17319 sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Nasa's Antigravity Machine Resent-Message-ID: <"kgVO12.0.Rh1.Vr8iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:13 PM 1/3/98 -0800, Jerry W. Decker wrote: >Hi Ralpha et al! > >Finally, NASA is beginning to get the point....gravity is adjustable. <...> Yeah, its even shown on video. One way for gravity control is John Hutchinson's anti-gravity work called "The Hutchinson Effect." He uses a Tesla Coil, a HV electrostatic generator and other devices tuned to resonant a crystal that then is fed to a directional antenna. Some of his 750 demonstrations on levitation since 1979 are shown on the new video "Free Energy: Race to Zero" available from Lightworks ($39.00): www.lightworksav.com The following objects are shown accelerating upward: 1. Ice cream in a plastic cup. First the ice cream levitates out in a large blob (cool!) then the plastic cup shoots upward. 2. A hand saw. 3. A metal frying pan 4. A cup with juice. As the cup rotated on its upward journey the juice did not splash around inside the cup. 5. A 9" adjustable wrench. 6. A pint milk carton. The following object is shown levitating: 1. A 70 lb. canon ball. It took some time for levitation. The ball spun several times in a slow jerky motion, like trying to find its center of mass. The following objects are shown hovering and sliding around on a plastic surface: 1. Plastic bottle. 2. Bearing cylinder. 3. Tooth brush. 4. Metal necklace. 5. Coins. On tapping the ZPE, John invented his crystal converter units that acts like a permanent battery, still pumping out 0.4 to 2.5 volts a year later. He showed several different designs and and then powers a small motor with the 2.5 volt output from one unit. He said it could be scaled up to power a several horsepower motor. The video also showed the work of Troy Reed's ou magnetic motor powering an electric car and the works of other free energy researchers. I highly recommend this video as well as Jeane Manning's new book "The Coming Energy Revolution, The Search for Free Energy". Best Regards, Michael Randall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 23:46:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16875; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:43:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:43:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980105154211.00706d18 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 15:42:11 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BGLz_3.0.b74.Ky8iq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>>Consider the following distribution of >>>masses "0" and the vertical dotted line ":" >>> >>> : >>> : >>>0 : 0 >>> > >The g component dimininshes along your proposed line in a >normal 1/r^2 fashion. Between the masses there is NO g component. If you move up along the dotted line there is SOME g component pulling back down between the masses. From none to some seems like an increase to me! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 23:49:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07754; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:39:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:42:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Resent-Message-ID: <"sSfrs1.0.4v1.Ru8iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I also left Li6 out of the mix, which has a whopping 940 barn cross section. Who needs Mn if you have Li6? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 4 23:53:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09673; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:50:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:50:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980105154948.0070bd1c cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 15:49:48 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FWPVg2.0.3N2.l29iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >By specifying the mass to be in a spherical shell you simply have defined >an internal space where g is 0. You can certainly say the you can not tell >the difference between 0 net gravitational force and 0 acceleration, but >that has little meaning in the original context of the statement of >equivalence, which applies at all accelerations. I seem to remember saying that the density of the shell should not be constant but should vary with linear displacement along an axis. ie one extreme side of the shell should be solid uranium while the opposite side solid aluminium with a smooth gradation in between. This will not produce a g field of 0 inside the shell. But I am not sure that it would produce a constant g field either - I am just guessing that it might be so. It would be easy to prove. Maybe I will get around to doing that sometime. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 03:05:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA30513; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:00:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:00:31 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:59:42 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b1b6cf.40348038 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OC0Ci.0.cS7.ErBiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:22:43 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >Maybe it is the "borrowing" part that is important, implying that a >stripping collision is very important. I didn't think about the fact 2.2 >MeV is being borrowed. B could be a very important ingredient for pulling >off the initial stripping (borrowing) act. I don't see how it can take 2.2 >MeV to flip a nucleon! Well that's the mass difference. So either Robert is wrong, or indeed the "borrowing" is important (IOW the neutron is essentially never really free, just hops across from one nucleus to the other), or 2.2 MeV has to be accumulated through resonance (seems a bit of a stretch to me though - maybe it won't really work because of this). [snip] >>Try 10B + n -> 4He + 7Li + 2.8 MeV >>(thermal neutron cross section of 10B is 3840 barns; its a real >>"sponge" :). > > >That looks like a fast neutron reaction you are quoting. Everything is >slow neutrons here. You get 10B + n -> 11B, which is OK. > >From http://necs01.dne.bnl.gov/cgi-bin/CoNquery?nuc=b10 , (n,alpha) Cross Section <----- 4He, thus also 7Li at 0.0253 eV = 3837 b <----- .02 eV is a thermal neutron Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 3400 b Resonance integral = 1719 b at 14 MeV = 48.95 mb <----- Much less at high energy Fission spectrum avg. = 435.5 mb g-factor = 1.0000 [snip] >BTW all this talk makes me wonder if D2 fission is not tied into cold >fusion in some manner. The borrowing D2 fission-exchange would hide the >neutron transfer. Even the plain water cells (e.g Ni-H2O) have some D. Sounds plausible don't it? >Not a new thought, I know. Just need an output slightly bigger than the >2.2 MeV borrowed. The 2.8 MeV from the reaction above leaves about .565 MeV / reaction. If you use 40 kWh / day in your home, then your $400 liter of heavy water (and a couple of dollars worth of Boron compound) will last you 115 years (if it hasn't all evaporated by then ;). Then again, since you are probably using a steam cycle to generate power, you can probably distil more D2O than you need, from ordinary water, in the process :]. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 03:07:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29670; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:04:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:04:24 -0800 (PST) From: Geosas Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:02:46 EST To: monteverde worldnet.att.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com Cc: Geosas aol.com Subject: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ZM8ef3.0.WF7.ruBiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick - Thanks for the Web site references - will look them up. I have a capacitor here, an Erie 6800uF/16V type KA3051T HWY which registered about 400 mV on a 10-megohm input DVM right off the shelf, where it has been for about 20 years. I now have it on chan. 2 of my A-D card and it is reading about 130 mV. The A-D card has an input impedance of 10 megs but it whacks about 100 pF across the inputs when reading, so the charge will be drained slowly. Readings are taken once per sec. and the average is logged every 15 mins. The capacitor is lying horizontally on the bench in a NE-SW direction. The A-D card is made by a British outfit called Brain Boxes in Liverpool, and includes a preamplifier which goes up to 8x gain. So with 12 bits and this gain I have 305.2 uV resolution. I can plot this on an Excel spreadsheet, don't know how I can easily distribute this other than by printing and scanning. Maybe someone can advise as I am not a spreadsheet expert. I think you wanted to know about sidereal time. This is the same as solar time at the September equinox, and gains about 4 mins. per solar day such that there are 366.25 (approx.) sidereal days per solar year. So if there is some sidereal influence, something will be observed which happens 4 min. earlier every solar day. I have some good astronomical programs if needed. All the best, George. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 03:10:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01224; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:09:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:09:30 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 11:08:43 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b2be0c.42201228 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wiB7s1.0.2J.ezBiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:42:20 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >I also left Li6 out of the mix, which has a whopping 940 barn cross >section. Who needs Mn if you have Li6? True, but this produces T which is radioactive, whereas 10B primarily produces stable products. However the reaction does produce 2.5 MeV overall excess, which certainly is an improvement on .565 MeV. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 05:17:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13392; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 05:14:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 05:14:02 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980105131521.00674f64 bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo bahnhof.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:15:21 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gudmund rapp Subject: Diamond coating Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA13371 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bk_KJ.0.6H3.PoDiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To vortex for info: In December last year Patrik Hollman at the University of Uppsala in Sweden defended his thesis: "Micro- and Nanocrystalline Diamond coatings with Extreme Wear Resistance and Ultra Low Friction". Something for RMOGs and other rotary o/u designs?? http://www.uu.se (in Swedish) According to the university´s home page Hollman´s emailadress is Patrick.Hollman material.uu.se Gudmund Rapp Phone: +4687178913; +46706820641 Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Email: grappo bahnhof.se 133 32 Saltsjobaden Sweden Web "Self-knowledge": http://www.bahnhof.se/~grappo/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 06:12:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21473; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:08:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:08:42 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 05:11:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle Resent-Message-ID: <"iC1M03.0.PF5.fbEiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>>>Consider the following distribution of >>>>masses "0" and the vertical dotted line ":" >>>> >>>> : >>>> : >>>>0 : 0 >>>> >> >>The g component dimininshes along your proposed line in a >>normal 1/r^2 fashion. > >Between the masses there is NO g component. If you move up >along the dotted line there is SOME g component pulling back >down between the masses. From none to some seems like an >increase to me! Yes, you are right. I was thinking of replacing the two masses with an equivalent mass, which only works *in the limit.* Looking at the geometry: o m /.\ F1 / . \ F2 / . \ r / Fd. \ r / | .h \ / | . \ / v . theta\ M 0-------o-------0 M D D We see: F1 = GmM (1/r^2) F2 = GmM (1/r^2) Fd = 2GmM SIN(theta)(1/r^2) but: r=h/SIN(theta) so: Fd = 2GmM SIN(theta)^3 (1/h^2) which shows in the limit as theta --> 90 deg., Fd --> 2GmM (1/h^2) If we are interested in the ratio x=h/D we have: h=x*D SIN(theta) = h/r = h/(h^2+D^2)^0.5 and substituting them in Fd = 2GmM SIN(theta)^3 (1/h^2) we have: Fd = (2GmM/D^5) x*(x^2+1)^-1.5 which has a maximum value when x = 0.707107 x*(x^2+1)^-1.5 = 0.3849 Fd = (2GmM/D^5)*0.3849 The downward force is thus maximum when h/D = 2^0.5, or H^2/D^2 = 2 Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 06:13:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15801; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:09:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:09:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 05:11:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle Resent-Message-ID: <"MGvL31.0.ls3.McEiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:49 PM 1/5/98, John Winterflood wrote: >>By specifying the mass to be in a spherical shell you simply have defined >>an internal space where g is 0. You can certainly say the you can not tell >>the difference between 0 net gravitational force and 0 acceleration, but >>that has little meaning in the original context of the statement of >>equivalence, which applies at all accelerations. > >I seem to remember saying that the density of the shell should >not be constant but should vary with linear displacement along >an axis. ie one extreme side of the shell should be solid >uranium while the opposite side solid aluminium with a smooth >gradation in between. This will not produce a g field of 0 >inside the shell. But I am not sure that it would produce a >constant g field either - I am just guessing that it might be >so. It would be easy to prove. Maybe I will get around to >doing that sometime. OH, OK, I aparently misunderstood. When you said "along a chosen axis" you meant along a specific pre-chosen axis, not any arbitrarily chosen axis. In other words you chose the axis, the axis is not *any* axis chosen, which would put everything into symmetry. At 6:36 PM 1/2/98, John Winterflood wrote: >John Winterflood wrote: >>So I would guess that supposing you started with a sphere >>of mass, and then removed a smaller sphere of that mass from >>the interior of the first sphere, but *offset to one side*. >>Then for the entire volume of the empty sphere, the >>gravitational field would be perfectly constant and >>unidirectional - impossible to pick from an accelerating >>frame even mathematically! (This is just a guess mind >>you - maybe we need negative mass or something like that >>to do the job). > >Just had a better idea:- Supposing you had a spherical >shell (any reasonable and constant thickness) of matter >and caused its density to vary linearly dependent on >displacement along a chosen axis (ie by mixing varying >proportions of uranium and aluminium for arguments sake), >then it seems to me that it would be a better contender >for giving a constant gravitational field within the >contained volume. Anyone feel like doing the simple >integration math required to check this? I think your quest to find a uniform non-zero gravitational field is interesting, but still does not apply to the discussion about GR, which works *in general*. To work in general, the equivalence principle can only apply to a point. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 07:20:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25789; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:16:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:16:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980105095631.00750220 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 09:56:31 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: ZPE(vacuum) - is it just "background radiation"? Cc: Puthoff aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"s_QvV.0.rI6.CbFiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:21 PM 1/3/98 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote: >"The ZPE spectrum are solutions of Maxwell's eqns, so whether standing or >travelling waves, they are transverse. In that sense, no to the question." Hal: This is the third request over several months trying to clarify what it is you MEAN by ZPE(vacuum). Am writing a review of this field, and hopefully since you are a major investigator of ZPE(vacuum) you would give this the attention it deserves. Perhaps some of the vortexians might benefit from the clarification as well. The ZPE(vacuum) equations are generally understood, because before their transformation for ZPE(v) they are well-known. Therefore, rather, some of the confusion comes from your public interviews on NPR and Scientific American (sorry, haven't got the Playboy issue about you which was noted here recently) claiming ZPE(vacuum) is involved in the activation of solar cells by sunlight, and also purportedly accounts for cold fusion, cavitation reactions, gravity, and other things not normally associated with EITHER background radiation, or the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. ====================================================== Here are three questions which were never answered, yet remain important, about ZPE(vacuum), if you want ZPE(vacuum) to not be ambiguously defined. ZPE(lattice) discussed below is the 1/2 h-bar omega of phonons, which appears real and acknowledged in material science. re: ZPE(vacuum) Three Still-unanswered questions: Have asked repeatedly for clarification if your ZPE(vacuum) is actually just background radiation OR truly a result of the uncertainty principle. 1. If purported ZPE(vacuum) is background electromagnetic radiation penetrating through interplanetary space, then some call it "background EM radiation". Is it? 2. IF purported ZPE(vacuum) is based on the uncertainly principle, then where is the energy (and time) coming from to fill the TEM and other modes in a true vacuum? The equation when used correctly indicates a very short time, and a very small amount of energy. 3. What is your calculations of the quantitative ratio: ZPE(lattice)/ZPE(vacuum) for 1 cm3 of matter and 1 cm3 of true vacuum? Thank you for the help in clarifying this. Perhaps though it, control and utilization of ZPE(vacuum) might be better engineered. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 09:59:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10125; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:56:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:56:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B12C0C.5D9 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:53:00 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Inertial Energy Converter claims 1000% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CYe0i2.0.4U2.d2Hiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi! Michael Danielschenko has recently posted an amazing claim by a researcher named Ewerts. He claims to have built an inertial energy converter that provides upwards of 1000% more energy than it takes to run it. There are two files posted on his website regarding this; http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/3664/ check it out...also if you aren't up on inertial drives (one version), check out; http://www.open.org/davidc seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 11:28:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18873; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:21:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:21:47 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <34e2deab.34b1329a aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:20:56 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: ZPE question for Hal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ofgOq2.0.ic4.9BJiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 1/4/98 1:25:31 PM, Mitchell Swartz asked: << 1. If purported ZPE(vacuum) is background electromagnetic radiation penetrating through interplanetary space, then some call it "background EM radiation". Is it?>> Yes, it is a form of background radiation. But is it not the 3-degree Kelvin thermal residual radiation left over from the Big Bang (the so-called microwave background), which is in addition to the zero-point energy. The term "zero-point" labels that contribution in addition to the thermal that would exist even at 0 degrees Kelvin - i.e., is independent of temperature. Again, I recommend some of my own publications wherein this issue is specifically addressed in an unambiguous way. See H. E. Puthoff, "On the source of vacuum electromagnetic zero-point energy," Phys. Rev. A, vol. 40, p. 4857, (1989); vol. 44, P. 3382 (1990). In this paper it is shown that the self-consistent field solution over cosmological space of interacting fields and matter leads to a cosmological feedback cycle (like placing a microphone by a speaker) in which quantum fluctuations of charges generate fluctuation fields, which in turn drive the charge fluctuations, with the ZPE as the consequence. Or, if you prefer other references, see, e.g., the book by W. H. Louisell, "Radiation and noise in quantum electronics," McGraw Hill (1964). In there you see calculations and text that reads "This is called the zero-point field fluctuation. Each mode of the field contributes an amount (h-bar X omega)/2; since there are an infinite number of modes... the zero-point energy is infinite. [However].. the bandwidth of the detecting instrument would be finite and so it would not detect an infinite value for these zero-point field fluctuations.... Restricting knowledge of the field to a limited region of space time has effectively placed a bandwidth limitation on the detecting instrument. The zero-point field fluctuations give rise to measurable effeects in quantum mechanics. In particular, they account for the Lamb shift... they induce spontaneous emission....are the source of quantum noise.....source of the natural linewidth of atoms." Mitchell, I don't know what more I can say. You keep saying I don't answer these questions, but I do, and, as the above shows, this is all standard textbook stuff, not just my "quirky" interpretation. Perhaps it's the "infinity" that bothers you (and used to bother all quantum field theorists in the beginning), but as you see from the above quotes we don't see it directly because of bandwidth limitations with regard to any particular detector system, so there is no paradox here. <<2. IF purported ZPE(vacuum) is based on the uncertainly principle, then where is the energy (and time) coming from to fill the TEM and other modes in a true vacuum?>> See above discussion and related textbook explications. Each mode acts as a harmonic oscillator with the uncertainty principle's amount of energy (h-bar X omega)/2. For a harmonic oscillator the uncertainty principle gives delta E X delta T = h-bar/2. Since the delta E is (h-bar X omega)/2, the uncertainty principle reduces to delta-omega X delta T = 1. This is because it takes a time 1/(delta-omega) to know you are looking at a mode with frequency delta- omega. <<3. What is ZPEc/ZPEv for 1 cm3 of matter and 1 cm3 of true vacuum?>> Formally, zero, since ZPEv is infinite. Folowing Wheeler, who gives arguments that there is a Planck cutoff ~10^44 Hz due to quantum gravitation reasons, the ZPEv is not infinite, only 10^115 ergs/cm-cubed. See his "Geometrodynamics" or "Gravitation," co-authored with Misner and Thorne for this number. Feynman suggests that, given that nuclei in essence constitute bandwidth-limited detectors (as discussed above), for all practical purposes we can limit consideration as to the "active" part of the ZPE to a density ~10^35 ergs/cm-cubed, so once again your ratio is vanishingly small. (Its exact value depends on the ZPEc for the particular matter.) That's what quantum electrodynamics tells us. It could be wrong somehow, but that is what it says, and the accuracy of its predictions is the best we have in science. I trust now that you know I have answered your question in as much detail as I can without simply quoting QED textbooks in full. Best regards, Hal From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 12:33:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05145; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:03:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:03:47 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:57:22 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34b6664a.19732214 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, VLA ZPE farm, and Physics as philosphy etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="BOUNDARY.7309.1131.139342688.1" Resent-Message-ID: <"XqOOx3.0.HG1.UoJiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Warning: This is a message in MIME format. Your mail reader does not support MIME. Some parts of this message will be readable as plain text. To see the rest, you will need to upgrade your mail reader. This message was composed on an Amiga using the YAM mailer. YAM is available at http://bitcom.ch/~mbeck/ --BOUNDARY.7309.1131.139342688.1 Content-Type: text/plain Vorts, Stuff to read in your spare time. I found some interesting papers (.pdf files) by Dr. E. J. Post at Robert Kiehns website: http://www.uh.edu/~rkiehn/carfre56.htm He makes some interesting observations re the state of physics today and provides a review (100 pages) of the last centurys discoveries. Post is not a member of the QM according to Copenhagen clique. I have also attached a text file of an application by Prof. Myron Evans to the Princeton Institute for Advanced Studies to develope non-Abelian electrodynamics. ___Ron --BOUNDARY.7309.1131.139342688.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="app1.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: http://www.europa.com/~rsc/physics/B3/evans/apple.txt APPLICATION FOR LONG TERM MEMBERSHIP OF THE PIAS.=0D PLAN OF RESEARCH=0D =0D TITLE.=0D =0D Classical Electrodynamics as a non Abelian Gauge Field Theory.=0D= =0D =0D BACKGROUND.=0D =0D There is a rapidly growing consensus of opinion that the proposal in 1992= {1} of a longitudinal, phase free, component (labelled B(3)) of vacuum r= adiation is an important development in classical electrodynamics and uni= fied field theory {2-10}. There is a cyclic, covariant, relation between = B(3) and the transverse fields B(1) =3D B(2)* in a complex circular basis= ((1), (2), (3)). This has been shown {11} to be given by a non Abelian g= auge field theory which expresses B(3) in terms of a radiated observable,= the conjugate product of complex, magnetic vector potentials, labelled A= (1) x A(2). The latter is not a physical, gauge covariant object in class= ical electrodynamics and in U(1) gauge field theory is zero by definition= {12}. Therefore its observation in magneto optics {2-10} signals the exi= stence of the B(3) field and the need for a non Abelian gauge field theor= y of electrodynamics. The latter defines:=0D =0D B(3)* :=3D - i g A(1) x A(2) ------ (1)=0D =0D in the vacuum, where g is a scalar parameter. This result of an O(3) gaug= e theory {11} implies that B(3) is a physical observable proportional dir= ectly to the PHYSICAL and gauge covariant A(1) x A(2).=0D =0D This is a key result that signals a transition from Abelian to non Abelia= n in classical electrodynamics. =0D =0D Cotemporaneously, several other indications have arisen that the CLASSICA= L vector potential is PHYSICAL and observable. Outstanding among these is= the work by Barrett {13,14} which uses an SU(2) gauge field theory for c= lassical electrodynamics, homomorphic with the O(3) gauge field theory th= at produces the B(3) field. Barrett {13,14} has argued beyond reasonable = doubt that there are several physical phenomena in existence which can be= explained only if the CLASSICAL potential four vector is physical and ob= servable. These include: the Sagnac; Ehrenberg Siday; Aharonov Bohm; topo= logical phase; de Haas van Alphen; and quantum Hall effects {13,14}. To t= hese can now be added non linear, magneto-optical effects explained by th= e conjugate product A(1) x A(2) {2-10}, and more generally, non linear ef= fects dependent on n'th order tensor products involving the vector potent= ial where n is greater than or equal to two. In other words, non Abelian = gauge field theory in general offers a means of unifying linear and non l= inear optics {2-10} from first principles, a goal of classical electrodyn= amics from Born and Infeld onwards. =0D =0D In the view of linear, classical electrodynamics advocated by Heaviside a= nd contemporaries, now known as the vector Maxwell equations {13,14}, the= potential is relegated to a subsidiary mathematical role, and so cannot = be regarded as physical or gauge covariant. It is well known that this U(= 1) gauge transformation is arbitrary, one can add to both A(1) and A(2) t= he gradient of a random scalar without affecting the curl of either. Thes= e curls are B(1) and B(2), the transverse plane wave solutions in vacuo o= f the vector Maxwell equations of Heaviside for magnetic flux density. In= the current view of linear classical electrodynamics, the magnetic flux = density B(1) =3D B(2)* is an observable, while A(1) =3D A(2)* is a mathem= atical subsidiary variable. Therefore linear classical, or U(1), electrod= ynamics, is thought to have gauge freedom in the received opinion. In fac= t, this view becomes unsustainable as soon as we observe a non linear phe= nomenon of magneto optics such as the inverse Faraday effect {2-10}, phas= e free magnetization by radiation, (and as soon as we consider the linear= phenomena analysed by Barrett {13,14}). The reason is that A(1) x A(2) i= s observed as a physical and classical quantity, which must therefore be = gauge covariant. =0D =0D There are several other indications from other leading researchers {2-10}= that linear, classical electrodynamics is incomplete, for example the wo= rk of Chubykalo and Smirnov-Rueda; Munera et al.; Recami et al., Meszaros= et al., Dvoeglazov, and Lehnert, summarized in review articles in ref. {= 10}; and more recently the work of Ciubotariu et al. {15}; Gill et al. {1= 6,17} in special relativity; Barrett {13,14} and Bearden {18}. At two rec= ent conferences {19, 20} several further indications have been given of t= he need for fundamental revision of classical and quantum electrodynamics= =2E Prof. Gill is currently working at the School of Mathematics at PIAS.= Witten at PIAS has recently summarized {21} the progress being made ther= e and elsewhere on non Abelian gauge field theories as a possible route t= o field unification. In this context the B(3) field allows a non Abelian = structure to be used for electrodynamics, which becomes a branch of the m= ore general non Abelian gauge field theory, for example the Yang Mills th= eory. One of the reprints enclosed with this application (Found. Phys. in= press) shows how the standard Gauss and Faraday Laws can be derived from= the well known Feynman Jacobi identity of non Abelian theory. Barrett ha= s used SU(2) gauge theory in several other electrodynamical contexts {13,= 14}, and in so doing makes the linear theory non linear. =0D =0D =0D =0D PLAN OF WORK=0D =0D A five year or regular membership of the PIAS would allow the extensive d= evelopment of computational methods for the direct solution of non Abelia= n and non linear gauge field equations applied to classical electrodynami= cs. These methods would generalize every fundamental equation of U(1), or= linear classical, electrodynamics, by writing the ordinary derivative as= a covariant derivative in a particular group (e.g SU(2), O(3) or SU(3)) = and by writing the field tensor quantities of U(1) electrodynamics in an = internal space, for example a Yang Mills space. The enclosed preprint is = an example of the development of the theory at a very early stage, where = a simple ansatz is used to linearize the Feynman Jacobi identity in order= to recover the Gauss and Faraday Laws under all conditions, together wit= h the fundamental O(3) field equations governing the novel B(3) component= {1-10}. The reason for this procedure is that the Gauss and Faraday Laws= are well verified experimentally under a host of conditions, but evident= ly not under all. The logic of recent development {2-10}, however, strong= ly suggests that the basic equations are non linear, and that their solut= ion in general is a highly non trivial mathematical, computational and ph= ysical problem: physical because careful control of the mathematics is ne= eded at each stage, careful comparison with data from linear and non line= ar optics {2-10}. At later stages the effect of these developments can be= explored in quantum electrodynamics. This can be done with confidence wi= thin the received view because Yang Mills theories are renormalizable at = all orders {2-10}, but the non Abelian theory as given {13,14} in high en= ergy field and particle physics also allows the incorporation of instanto= ns, solitons, vortices, degenerate vacua and topological monopoles which = do not exist in the present view of U(1), linear classical and quantum el= ectrodynamics. =0D =0D The great advantage of the key B(3) field component {1-10} is that it giv= es a solid experimental basis for the incorporation of non Abelian concep= ts such as these into classical electrodynamics. Therefore it is necessar= y to develop the classical theory first, before embarking on an extensive= re-appraisal of the quantum theory of electrodynamics. After that, the d= evelopment of novel concepts in unified field theory can begin in earnest= =2E Some of the rich variety of ideas that will surely become available h= ave been discussed already by Ciubotariu et al. {15}, who have argued for= the existence of a new metric suggested by the vacuum B(3) field, the so= called Evans Vigier field. Therefore it would be an advantage to assembl= e at PIAS a group of like minded pioneers such as Ciubotariu, a group whi= ch would reach critical mass. This would be a definite aim of my membersh= ip. =0D =0D It is already clear that non Abelian gauge field theory introduces a new = philosophy into classical electrodynamics because the scalar and vector p= otentials are regauged covariantly, as in Yang Mills theory. They are bot= h physical and observable. This means, for example, that the Lorentz cond= ition must be re-interpreted as advocated by Bearden et alia {18}. In the= received view it is an arbitrary condition on arbitrary potentials which= is used to derive the d'Alembert equation in a conveniently soluble form= =2E The latter quantizes to the wave equation of a massless particle, the= photon, and only transverse plane waves occur in vacuo. In the new view = now becoming more widely appreciated, regauging of the four potential is = covariant, a coordinate transformation as in general relativity, and the = vector and scalar components are not tied together as in the received Lor= entz gauge of U(1), linear and Abelian, classical electrodynamics. The ne= w view allows longitudinal and transverse components of both fields and v= ector potentials to co-exist under all conditions, including in vacuo. As= argued by Bearden et alia {18} for over twenty years, such ideas may lea= d to the ability to extract energy from the vacuum flux. More numbers nee= d to be put to these ideas in order to prepare the way for the electrical= engineers. In my opinion this work by Bearden et alia is well worth thin= king about very carefully, and would be an intrinsic part of my research = plan. The asymmetric regauging needed for this is certainly indicated by = standard non Abelian gauge field theory. The task at hand is to apply the= se highly developed ideas of high energy physics to classical electrodyna= mics. =0D =0D Walther Ritz {22} in a classic 1908 article translated by Fritzius {23} p= ointed out that the Maxwell Lorentz theory can be viewed equivalently as = delayed action at a distance, involving potentials without fields. Theref= ore the Heaviside school of thought runs into difficulties because delaye= d action at a distance depends directly on a classical physical potential= as argued elegantly by Ritz, but in the Heaviside view the classical pot= ential is unphysical. In the new view which I hope to be able to develop = systematically at PIAS, fundamental equations of the non Abelian gauge fi= eld theory, such as the Feynman Jacobi identity, involve physical fields = and physical potentials that co-exist from the outset within the same mat= hematical framework. Analytical and numerical solutions of these equation= s will therefore give all the information that is needed without having t= o use a Lorentz condition at all. The fields can always be eliminated alg= ebraically to give the non Abelian equivalent of the d'Alembert wave equa= tion, an equation, however, for physical and classical potentials in the = new view. Classical advanced and retarded solutions of this wave equation= (if necessary obtained by numerical solution with computers) give all th= e information available in U(1) electrodynamics plus a whole new area of = non linear, non Abelian but still CLASSICAL electrodynamics. The wave equ= ation will no longer necessarily quantize to the eigenequation of a massl= ess particle, allowing the existence of a massive photon as long argued b= y Vigier et alia {2-10}. Such a photon, however, would be deduced not fro= m the Proca wave equation in vacuo, but from its non Abelian generalizati= on. The massive photon would be a massive boson, meaning that the Wigner = little group would be the physical, non Abelian O(3) group of rotations i= n three space dimensions, not the unphysical, planar euclidean E(2) of th= e received view of the particulate photon, corresponding to waves in U(1)= , linear, Abelian and classical electrodynamics {2-10}. =0D =0D Thus, we expect solutions to emerge from this non Abelian field theory th= at will generalize those collected recently in ref. {10}. This volume sho= ws that even the received view of linear electrodynamics (based on Heavis= ide's vector equations attributed to Maxwell) allows, mathematically, lon= gitudinal field solutions in vacuo. The U(1) group on the other hand is h= omomorphic with O(2), the group of rotations in only two transverse dimen= sions. Therefore the U(1) lagrangian symmetry of the received view disall= ows longitudinal vacuum solutions. A severe internal inconsistency in the= received view of classical electrodynamics is therefore revealed, as ear= lier advocated in the elegant language of a previous generation by Ritz {= 22}. In my opinion the use of a non Abelian gauge field approach is one w= ay of repairing flaws such as this in the older view, now rapidly being s= uperceded among leading specialists. Therefore a part of my membership wo= uld be devoted to an exploration of advanced solutions from non Abelian e= lectrodynamical wave equations, and their physical interpretation in term= s of possible action at a distance. Instantaneous action at a distance, a= s advocated by Chubykalo and Smirnov-Rueda {10} might then emerge as a li= miting advanced solution of the non-Abelian wave equation. Finally these = solutions would be interpreted in terms of B(3), which is independent of = phase and any signal, superluminal or subluminal wave velocity. The Evans= Vigier field seems therefore to be a fundamental, physical, non linear a= nd observable property of light that may have a superluminal and sublumin= al interpretation as well as the standard one in terms of cross products = of plane waves propagating at c in vacuo, the signal velocity. In this co= ntext Albert Einstein corresponded from PIAS in 1954 with N. Vivian Pope = {24}, supporting the latter's view of instantaneous acton at a distance b= ased on proper time considerations. Recently, Gill et al. {16,17} at PIAS= and Howard University have argued that the parameter c of the Heaviside = Maxwell equations of linear classical dynamics must be interpreted anew, = in terms of proper time invariance, and have produced several interesting= results already. There is certainly a link between these ideas by Gill e= t al. {16,17} and by Pope {24} and the B(3) concept {1-10}, but the stage= has been reached where numbers need to be put on the ideas using some ag= reed upon non linear structure such as the Jacobi identity of non Abelian= gauge field theory derived by Feynman and described in the enclosed prep= rint. This is what I hope to do with computational methods of solution of= the general non Abelian equations, both for physical fields and physical= potentials.=0D =0D Meszaros, Molnar et al. {10} have used fundamental and completely general= thermodynamical methods to show conclusively that in general, the Planck= theory of radiation cannot be internally consistent if Planck type quant= ization were to be based on U(1) electrodynamics. A third dimension is al= ways needed, including in vacuo, and this is precisely what is indicated = by the arguments given already. Therefore it would be important to develo= p the thermodynamics as part of my proposed membership and it is appropri= ate to mention that the Alpha Foundation, of which Meszaros is the distin= guished President, has received preliminary notification of funding equiv= alent to $203,000 for work of this type. Therefore I feel that it is like= ly that the new approach will receive funding from other sources during m= y proposed membership. I would aim to use this external funding to build = a critical mass group as mentioned already.=0D =0D Owing to my training as a chemical physicist and spectroscopist, I would = aim to retain an active interest in some of the undeveloped practical spi= n offs of B(3) theory: for example inverse Faraday effect spectroscopy {2= 5} and radiation induced fermion resonance {26}. These techniques use the= interaction of B(3) with matter to give useful spectral fingerprints in = the laboratory. Both techniques depend on eqn. (1), in which B(3) is expr= essed in the vacuum through A(1) x A(2), a fundamentally non Abelian defi= nition. In terms of eqn. (1), inverse Faraday effect spectroscopy is:=0D =0D B(3) (in matter) =3D - i g' A(1) x A(2) ------- (2)= =0D =0D where g' contains the spectroscopic information {25}, in general resonanc= es which occur in a characteristic pattern for all matter, including diam= agnetic matter such as water. This spectroscopy also illustrates the exis= tence of B(3) (in matter), whose magnitude {2-10} is orders smaller than = B(3) (in the vacuum), but still observable and potentially as useful as s= ay infra red or Raman spectroscopy. Radiation induced fermion resonance {= 26} is eqn. (1) applied to one fermion, such as a proton or an electron, = causing resonance as in NMR or ESR at a frequency defined by the Dirac eq= uation. The resonance is calculated from the interaction of a Pauli matri= x component sigma(3) with A(1) x A(2), and the theory {26} needs to be te= sted in a prototypical electron or proton beam, or as an enhancement of N= MR and ESR {26}. Funding for such exploratory work is being pursued at pr= esent. =0D =0D An interesting variation on the theme of eqn. (2) is the relativistic inv= erse Faraday effect {2-10}, where relativistic corrections are incorporat= ed into the g' factor on a classical level, effectively through the non A= belian generalization of the Lorentz equation or Hamilton Jacobi equation= {2-10}, not to be confused with the Lorentz condition. Funding for this = experiment has been actively sought for some time by Jeffers et alia {2-1= 0} from the Canadian NSERC, on the grounds that the relativistic effect i= n g' isolates B(3) at order one and identifies it unequivocally as a magn= etic field, but an O(3) magnetic field. The experiment would proceed by m= easuring the inverse Faraday effect in an electron beam under the appropr= iate relativistic conditions, and is well worth pursuing. It is closely r= elated to radiation induced fermion resonance. =0D =0D Finally, there are many other contemporary developments of this kind that= space does not allow to describe in detail, but are nevertheless interes= ting and important. Over the past eighteen months an "Electronic Universi= ty" has arisen spontaneously to discuss these problems, and owing to the = generosity of Roger Cathey of the Robert Cathey Research Source of Portla= nd, Oregon, the discussion is fully recorded and webbed at:=0D =0D www.europa.com/~rsc/physics=0D =0D which currently receives about 24,000 visits a year. This is cross-webbed= to the site of the Alpha Foundation and that of the journal "Apeiron", e= dited by C. Roy Keys. =0D =0D =0D SUMMARY=0D =0D It is already clear that every equation of the linear, Abelian, classical= electrodynamics received from the great Maxwellian theory as developed b= y Heaviside and contemporaries can be developed as an equation in non Abe= lian gauge field theory. For example the homogeneous Maxwell equations be= come a Jacobi Feynman identity as described in the enclosed preprint. The= refore our aim is quite general and can be applied not only to electrodyn= amics but to unified field theory. In this view, the new non linear equat= ions of classical electrodynamics will be special cases of a non Abelian = gauge field theory similar to the type already being developed at PIAS. I= t seems that the latter is therefore ideal to assemble a critical mass of= like minded pioneers.=0D =0D =0D REFERENCES =0D =0D {1} M. W. Evans, Physica B, 182, 227, 237 (1992); 183, 103 (1992).=0D {2} M. W. Evans and S. Kielich (eds.), "Modern Nonlinear Optics" (Wiley, = New York, 1992, 1993, 1997 (paperback)). =0D {3} M. W. Evans and A. A. Hasanein, "The Photomagneton in Quantum Field T= heory" (World Scientific, Singapore, 1994). =0D {4} M. W. Evans, Found. Phys. Lett., 7, 67, 209, 379, 437, 467, 577, 591 = (1994); 8, 63, 83, 187, 253, 279, 359, 381, 459, 481, 563 (1995); 9, 61, = 175, 191 (1996); M. W. Evans and S. Jeffers, ibid., 9, 587 (1996); A. E. = Chubykalo, R. Smirnov-Rueda and M. W. Evans, ibid., 10, 93 (1997); M. W. = Evans, Found. Phys. Lett., 10, 255, 403 (1997); Sept. 1997; M. W. Evans, = Found. Phys., 24, 1519, 1671 (1994); 25, 175, 383 (1995); M. W. Evans (ed= =2E), "Apeiron", Spring 1997.=0D {5} M. W. Evans and J.-P. Vigier, "The Enigmatic Photon, Vol. One, The Fi= eld B(3)." (Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1994). =0D {6} M. W. Evans and J.-P. Vigier, "The Enigmatic Photon, Vol. Two, Non-Ab= elian Electrodynamics." (Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1995). =0D {7} M. W. Evans, J.-P. Vigier, S. Roy and S. Jeffers, "The Enigmatic Phot= on, Vol. Three, Theory and Practice of the B(3) Field." (Kluwer, Dordrech= t, 1996).=0D {8} A. E. Chubykalo and R. Smirnov-Rueda, Phys. Rev. E, 53, 5373 (1996); = H. A. Munera and O. Guzman, Found. Phys. Lett., 10, Feb. 1997; V. V. Dvoe= glazov, Found. Phys. Lett., 10, 383 (1997). =0D {9} M. W. Evans, M. Meszaros and J.-P. Vigier (eds.), "The Enigmatic Phot= on, Vol. Five, New Papers." (Kluwer, Dordrecht, in prep., 1998), a select= ion of about forty new papers. =0D {10} M. W. Evans, J.-P. Vigier, S. Roy and G. Hunter (eds.), "The Enigmat= ic Photon, Vol. Four, New Directions" (Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1997), a select= ion of original chapters and new review articles. =0D {11} M. W. Evans, Found. Phys., submitted (preprint one). =0D {12} L. H. Ryder, "Quantum Field Theory" (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1987). =0D= {13} T. W. Barrett, "Electromagnetic Phenomena not explained by Maxwell's= Equations." in A. Lakhtakia, ed., "Essays on the Formal Aspects of Elect= romagnetic Theory." (World Scientific, Singapore, 1993), pp. 6 ff.=0D =0D (references continued on second file) =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D = --BOUNDARY.7309.1131.139342688.1-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 12:35:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05678; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:06:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:06:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:08:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Weight Loss - Equivalence Principle Resent-Message-ID: <"bw_8.0.XO1.bqJiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>>>Consider the following distribution of >>>>masses "0" and the vertical dotted line ":" >>>> >>>> : >>>> : >>>>0 : 0 >>>> >> >>The g component dimininshes along your proposed line in a >>normal 1/r^2 fashion. > >Between the masses there is NO g component. If you move up >along the dotted line there is SOME g component pulling back >down between the masses. From none to some seems like an >increase to me! Yes, you are right. I was thinking of replacing the two masses with an equivalent mass, which only works *in the limit.* Looking at the geometry: o m /.\ F1 / . \ F2 / . \ r / Fd. \ r / | .h \ / | . \ / v . theta\ M 0-------o-------0 M D D We see: F1 = GmM (1/r^2) F2 = GmM (1/r^2) Fd = 2GmM SIN(theta)(1/r^2) but: h/r = SIN(theta) r = h/SIN(theta) so: Fd = 2GmM SIN(theta)^3 (1/h^2) which shows in the limit as theta --> 90 deg., Fd --> 2GmM (1/h^2) If we are interested in the ratio x=h/D we have: h=x*D SIN(theta) = h/r = h/(h^2+D^2)^0.5 = x/(D*(x^2+1)^0.5) and substituting them in Fd = 2GmM SIN(theta)^3 (1/h^2) we have: Fd = 2GmM (x^3/(D^3*(x^2+1)^3) (1/(x^2*D^2)) Fd = (2GmM/D^5) x*(x^2+1)^-1.5 which has a maximum value when x = 0.707107 x*(x^2+1)^-1.5 = 0.3849 Fd = (2GmM/D^5)*0.3849 The downward force is thus maximum when h/D = (1/2)^0.5 H^2/D^2 = 1/2 2*H^2 = D^2 Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 13:28:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15282; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:59:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:59:26 -0800 Message-ID: <19980105205831.19304.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [153.34.20.226] From: "Chetter Hummin" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:58:25 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"RX1Mu3.0.gk3.icKiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I don't think you can have a monopole magnet any more than you can have an electric circuit with only a positive or only a negative terminal. If ZPE is energy, and a magnet is merely a polarized conductor, then the ZPE flows through it in only one direction, causing lower ZPE pressure at one pole, greater ZPE pressure at another. However, the ZPE "flows" from the excess to the area of deficiency, fulfilling the ZPE balance... Which explains why magnets don't attract non magnets... However, when you have two magnets with opposite poles, the ZPE flows through them, causing the ZPE pressure on the other sides of the magnets to be greater than the attracting sides. Magnets repulse because there is naturally greater ZPE pressure coming from two ZPE conducting magnets, and when put close enough, aren't allowed to form the field which balances the pressure, and causes repulsion proportional to the linear conductivity of the magnet... ----------------- Chetter Hummin chetterhummin hotmail.com "We are always making progress in the field of Psychohistory..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 14:11:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22563; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:46:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:46:28 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:40:02 EST To: rvanspaa eisa.net.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE variations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"kfsUP.0.QW5.pILiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/3/98 4:53:38 AM, rvanspaa eisa.net.au wrote: <> I didn't say it, but given that "spontaneous" decay is in fact driven by vacuum fluctuations, the above is a good description of what happens in nuclear decay. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 14:30:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03333; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:24:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:24:16 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <9e9aa691.34b15986 aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:07:00 EST To: herman antioch-college.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ZDmE92.0.wp.GsLiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/5/98 12:21:12 AM, herman antioch-college.edu wrote: <> OK, take two surfaces........... etc. Reproduce S. K. Lamoreaux, "Demonstration of the Casimir firce in the 0.6 to 6 micrometer range," Phys Rev Lett vol 78, p. 5, Jan 1997. That coupled with Milonni's et al.'s paper "Radiation pressure from the vacuum: Physical interpretation of the Casimir force," Phys Rev A vol 38, p. 1621, Aug 1988 should nail it down about as well as any. But it will be a lot of work! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 14:37:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26912; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:19:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:19:47 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <2503f340.34b15718 aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:56:38 EST To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, VLA ZPE farm, and Hal's comments Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"l001c2.0.Qa6.1oLiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/4/98 10:17:48 AM, hheffner corecom.net wrote: <> In the Casimir effect the ZPE acts to push *uncharged* metal surfaces together, simply because of the vacuum fluctuation EM waves satisfying the boundary conditions at the surface of the conductors; this restricts the modes between the plates as compared to those outside, and therefore the associated ZPE radiation pressure pushing the plates apart is weaker thatn that pushing them together. So, although charge in the conducting surfaces might sweem to play a role, Boyer has shown in some early Phys Rev papers that even if you assume the electronic charge e -> 0, ZPE effects remain. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 15:02:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09215; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:44:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:47:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, VLA ZPE farm, and Hal's comments Resent-Message-ID: <"Kzo6m3.0.uF2.D9Miq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:56 PM 1/5/98, Puthoff wrote: >In a message dated 1/4/98 10:17:48 AM, hheffner corecom.net wrote: > ><somehow distorted.>> > >In the Casimir effect the ZPE acts to push *uncharged* metal surfaces >together, simply because of the vacuum fluctuation EM waves satisfying the >boundary conditions at the surface of the conductors; this restricts the modes >between the plates as compared to those outside, and therefore the associated >ZPE radiation pressure pushing the plates apart is weaker thatn that pushing >them together. So, although charge in the conducting surfaces might sweem to >play a role, Boyer has shown in some early Phys Rev papers that even if you >assume the electronic charge e -> 0, ZPE effects remain. > >Hal Puthoff The keyword above is meant to be "field", not "charged". The metal "surface" that does the reflecting is realy composed of fields, not particles. I suppose you could say it is composed of electrons, but the orbitals really aren't exactly equivalent to electrons. In a sense the field of the electrons involved is distorted by the fact the electron is in an orbital. It seems to me the photon interaction is really with the fields and not the particles, if that distinction can be made. In a sense, maybe that agrees with what you are saying. More important, though, is the thought of trying to manipulate the surface or lattice *field* geometry, indirectly by manuipulating the lattice, in some way in order to couple to, or non-symmetrically operate on, high frequency ZPE radiation. Normal orbitals, though theorized to be somehow coupled to ZPE in the extreme, do not make any of the energy available for practical use. My suggestion is that maybe the focus should be on manipulating the orbital *fields*, by stressing them in some way, in order to absorb or non-symmetrically reflect/refract ZPE. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 15:10:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10130; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:50:23 -0800 Message-ID: <19980105222932.16598.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [153.34.20.249] From: "Chetter Hummin" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:29:31 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"xVzZw2.0.CU2.jEMiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First of all, to access huge amounts of energy, you don't want to focus it, you want to create a ZPE vacuum in the presence of matter... First, you have to create a ZPE shield that will keep outside ZPE from entering a given space. Then, the only ZPE you will have is that which come from within that space. You also need a *SMALL* amount of matter in this space (Remember, 1g of matter = HIROSHIMA, by E=MC^2). You then use a magnetic field that intersects with the space to "suck out" much of the remaining ZPE... But beware, a reaction of any size has a proportional gravity and temperal distortion. Use with extreme caution... Of course, figuring out how to isolate ZPE is the tough part... ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:24:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com How do you focus ZPE? J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 15:21:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13397; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:03:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:03:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host server.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be server.uwindsor.ca Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:02:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: herman antioch-college.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith In-Reply-To: <9e9aa691.34b15986 aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"I6LR42.0.gG3.5RMiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re ZPE -- my big problem is that steady-state concepts are applied without due consideration to their applicability.Thus , one talks about ZPE standing waves within Casimir cells--- what time constants come in?-- since the source is fluctuation via uncertainty??Does Hal (I'm sure he does) have any thoughts here.One of the big problems in general re analysis of systems is oversimplifying ---- ' it is linear, it is steady-state' I don't doubt the Casimir effect but I need info (hence I'm ignorant) on the build-up/decay process.Perhaps here we catch the swing and only by ignoring the 'steady-state' business we get a handle.I appreciate high-freq stuff(hence super low time constants) but tapping ZPE will be IMHO statistical. Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 16:11:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11587; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:53:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:53:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980105175256.00b3e248 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 17:52:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP action! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XzMss.0.qq2.f9Niq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, Over the weekend, our BLP chamber proved itself leakfree to within the resolution of the pressure sensor. On Friday afternoon I filled the chamber with 1.8 torr of H gas. This morning it was still at 1.8 torr. This morning I vac'd it out and refilled with 2.0 torr of H gas. I then applied power to the cartridge heater automatically regulated to keep the temperature of the H gas in the chamber (sensed by the K thermocouple in there) at 200C (I'm starting conservatively...less than the 280C they used). When I finally got the regulation algorithm tuned satisfactorily, the heater power levelled off at about 27 watts. Gas temp was, of course, 200C. Chamber wall temperature (closer to the cartridge heater than the gas temp sensor) was 218C. Interestingly, the chamber pressure increased steadily from 2 torr to about 12 torr as things stabilized at the above temperatures. If the gas alone was heated to 200C, you'd only expect the pressure to rise to 1.6 times its starting value from ideal gas considerations. Clearly something else was adding to the pressure in the chamber. With things nice and stable and the water-flow calorimetry reading a respectable 26 watts out (for 27 watts in), I turned on 10 watts of power to the tungsten filament (removed from a 100 watt light bulb). Immediately the power to the cartridge heater started dropping as you would expect since it is being automatically regulated to keep Tgas constant. However, I noticed that 10 watts to the filament only got it up to ~950C (I compute the filament temp from it resistance change). I decided to turn the filament up to about 27 watts...same as the cartridge heater was. The filament temperature rose to around 1750C and, within 1 or 2 minutes, the filament burned out! Unfortunately there was not enuf time with the filament on to obtain even a hint of info about excess heat. Now, what happened!? Here are some clues and observations: 1. I checked an ordinary 75 watt light bulb's filament temp. When operating it runs at 14.2 times the room temperature resistance which corresponds to about 2350C. 2. I disassembled the chamber and observed the following: a. the KNO3 (0.3 grams initially) is virtually all gone. There is a little melted KNO3 stuck in the cracks of my pan but the rest is just gone! b. there is a black soot-like coating on the parts of the apparatus that directly faced the KNO3 pan, as if the KNO3 emitted soot somehow. It is A.C.S. 99+% KNO3. There is no obvious source of carbon in the system. c. The filament parted in the center. Under the microscope I can see that the tungsten wire gets progressively thinner and thinner as you go from the termination to the center where it broke. Initially it was a constant diameter. 3. Judging by the discoloration, the cartridge heater is getting a lot hotter than 200C. The KNO3 pan is rather close to the cartrige heater. You may wish to refresh your memory of the apparatus by looking at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html Any comments or suggstions would be greatly appreciated. Time is of the essence. I will try _something_ else tomorrow. Get your 2-bits in ASAP. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 17:50:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22747; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:48:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:48:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:44:52 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1a44$aec227e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-5wIH1.0.FZ5.frOiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 5:09 PM Subject: BLP action! >Gnorts, > >Over the weekend, our BLP chamber proved itself leakfree to within the >resolution of the pressure sensor. On Friday afternoon I filled the >chamber with 1.8 torr of H gas. This morning it was still at 1.8 torr. > >This morning I vac'd it out and refilled with 2.0 torr of H gas. I then >applied power to the cartridge heater automatically regulated to keep the >temperature of the H gas in the chamber (sensed by the K thermocouple in >there) at 200C (I'm starting conservatively...less than the 280C they >used). When I finally got the regulation algorithm tuned satisfactorily, >the heater power levelled off at about 27 watts. Gas temp was, of course, >200C. Chamber wall temperature (closer to the cartridge heater than the >gas temp sensor) was 218C. > >Interestingly, the chamber pressure increased steadily from 2 torr to about >12 torr as things stabilized at the above temperatures. If the gas alone >was heated to 200C, you'd only expect the pressure to rise to 1.6 times its >starting value from ideal gas considerations. Clearly something else was >adding to the pressure in the chamber. You sure have a potential for "artifacts" there, Scott. :-) First " the 0.3 grams of KNO3 is all gone"! 1, 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 ----> 2 KOH + N2 + 4 H2O 0.01g 0.201g no pressure change here except for vapor pressure of KOH or KNO3. 2, 3 H2 + 2 KOH ---> 2 H2O + 2 KH (unstable)goes to 2K + H2? 3, 2 KNO3 + heat ----> K2O2 + N2 + 2 O2 etc. AT 2 Torr you only had 0.24 Micrograms of Hydrogen/CM^3, No wonder the filament burned out. :-) > >With things nice and stable and the water-flow calorimetry reading a >respectable 26 watts out (for 27 watts in), I turned on 10 watts of power >to the tungsten filament (removed from a 100 watt light bulb). Immediately >the power to the cartridge heater started dropping as you would expect >since it is being automatically regulated to keep Tgas constant. However, >I noticed that 10 watts to the filament only got it up to ~950C (I compute >the filament temp from it resistance change). I decided to turn the >filament up to about 27 watts...same as the cartridge heater was. The >filament temperature rose to around 1750C and, within 1 or 2 minutes, the >filament burned out! Too much O2 from KOH vapor, KNO3 decomposition and H2O (3 H2O + W ----> WO3 + H2) Also can form K2WO4 from KOH-KNO3 vapors. Unfortunately there was not enuf time with the >filament on to obtain even a hint of info about excess heat. > >Now, what happened!? Here are some clues and observations: > >1. I checked an ordinary 75 watt light bulb's filament temp. When >operating it runs at 14.2 times the room temperature resistance which >corresponds to about 2350C. > >2. I disassembled the chamber and observed the following: > >a. the KNO3 (0.3 grams initially) is virtually all gone. There is a >little melted KNO3 stuck in the cracks of my pan but the rest is just gone! > >b. there is a black soot-like coating on the parts of the apparatus that >directly faced the KNO3 pan, as if the KNO3 emitted soot somehow. The KxOy + free K compounds can form black "metallates" (trust me on this one, Scott) even with the metals in stainless or pure nickel. It is >A.C.S. 99+% KNO3. There is no obvious source of carbon in the system. Most likey pure tungsten. Read up on the "water cycle" in light bulbs that cause the blackening of the bulb. Interesting stuff. > >c. The filament parted in the center. Under the microscope I can see that >the tungsten wire gets progressively thinner and thinner as you go from >the termination to the center where it broke. Initially it was a constant >diameter. > >3. Judging by the discoloration, the cartridge heater is getting a lot >hotter than 200C. The KNO3 pan is rather close to the cartrige heater. > >You may wish to refresh your memory of the apparatus by looking at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html > >Any comments or suggstions would be greatly appreciated. Time is of the >essence. I will try _something_ else tomorrow. Get your 2-bits in ASAP. Done. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 17:51:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21144; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:42:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:42:37 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980105175256.00b3e248 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:42:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"37VvG2.0.HA5.BmOiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some thoughts on your BLP experiment so far: >Interestingly, the chamber pressure increased steadily from 2 torr to about >12 torr as things stabilized at the above temperatures. If the gas alone >was heated to 200C, you'd only expect the pressure to rise to 1.6 times its >starting value from ideal gas considerations. Clearly something else was >adding to the pressure in the chamber. It seems clear that something is outgassing---a common plague when trying to do experimetns in vacuum. A surprising amount of water comes out of surfaces that have been exposed to air for some time. Also, vapors of oils and cleaning solvents come out, too. The solution is to bake the system at 200 C (higher is better) while under the best and cleanest steadily-pumped vacuum you can muster. Plan on many hours of baking before you you can valve off the pump and observe a steady high vacuum in the chamber. [snip] >...I decided to turn the >filament up to about 27 watts...same as the cartridge heater was. The >filament temperature rose to around 1750C and, within 1 or 2 minutes, the >filament burned out! Probably the contaminating gas had oxygen, either as O2 or in a compound that was reduced by the hot tungsten of the filament. W oxidizes, and some of its oxides are volatile at high temperatures, so the W is quickly eaten away as volatile oxide. [snip] >a. the KNO3 (0.3 grams initially) is virtually all gone. There is a >little melted KNO3 stuck in the cracks of my pan but the rest is just gone! Hmmm. Could KNO3 be a source of oxygen? I know it's not supposed to decompose at 200 C, but... Was the KNO3 well dried? Many salts are somewhat deliquescent. Outgassed water vapor would be a source of oxygen on the hot W filament. [snip] >c. The filament parted in the center. Under the microscope I can see that >the tungsten wire gets progressively thinner and thinner as you go from >the termination to the center where it broke. Initially it was a constant >diameter. Consistent (but not absolute proof) of oxidation or some other attack on the W. Once the filament diameter is slightly reduced locally, its local resistance increases; then, the local I^2 R heating increases, the locality gets hotter than the rest of the filament, the oxidation increases, and the process runs away. (This instability limits the life of incandescent lights.) Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 19:02:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08517; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:51:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:51:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:45:14 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BLP action! In-Reply-To: <01bd1a44$aec227e0$LocalHost default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ErR7e2.0.-42._mPiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: General comments: 1] complete removal-extraction-gettering of water is probably a must. Try bake out methods, flush with dry nitrogen and put in the DRY nitrate or nitrite. 2] use MUCH heavier filament. Auto dual filament tail light is good, then you have two elements... LEAVE it in its own support, just remove some or all of the glass. Add 1 or 2 extra electrodes ... use second auto lamp, but no filament, and put near first.... now you can monitor, to a degree anyway, and ionic 'bidness'. :) Get out the old electrometer amp and make sure you do some base line stuff. 3] use 3rd tail lamp to hold thermoresistance element, ie., nichrome or the like. Ballpark calibration can be done with water at ice and boiling and peanut oil in electric fry pan. 4] Primary causes of tungsten filament failure ... in no particular order; a] thermal shock.... bring stuff up slow. b] notching. A thinner spot, crystalline or other defect causes greater current draw, and so thereby greater heat, at the defect site. This then can result in a type of thermal runaway where the metal evaporates at a greater and greater rate. c] defects in the filament, the mounting and-or the filament and filament terminal bond Good hunting! J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 19:29:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13251; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:22:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:22:22 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <4141ff47.34b19f72 aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:05:19 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: BLP action! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"NQmcY.0.zE3.hDQiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Good start! Now some suggestions: (1) Run the cell with H2 and no KNO3 at first (2) Bump the filiment wattage up in steps from the initial 10 watt input and allow the temps to stabilize each time. (H2 gas in cell) Find a filiment power input that that will give the desired cell temperature without burning it out. Then, add the KNO3 and try step (2) again. Another thought: The same protocall using He. Watching with much excitement in Las Vegas. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 19:58:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17332; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:50:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199801060350.TAA32649 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"JTjAW1.0.kE4.reQiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hal, even if the early questions are not interesting to respond to, please consider carefully the final question at the bottom regarding the energy density of the quantum vacuum inside a star that is fusing mass to energy. Ross > >In a message dated 1/4/98 1:25:31 PM, Mitchell Swartz asked: > ><< 1. If purported ZPE(vacuum) is background electromagnetic radiation >penetrating through interplanetary space, then some call >it "background EM radiation". Is it?>> > >Yes, it is a form of background radiation. But is it not the 3-degree Kelvin >thermal residual radiation left over from the Big Bang (the so-called >microwave background), which is in addition to the zero-point energy. Or perhaps, the timings and geometry of the wave energy that IS the ZPE, results in the CBR, in addition to all of the other wavelengths of ZPE fluctuations (where much more energy resides). ie, the CBR is like a bunch of ZPE energy density waves propogating across the universe. The >term "zero-point" labels that contribution in addition to the thermal that >would exist even at 0 degrees Kelvin - i.e., is independent of temperature. Agreed. In my work, the ZPE and the spacetime topology are intimitely related in that spacetime is like an overall topological acoustic structure with regular nodal spacings. ZPE is the "noise" on top of that plus the spacetime wave energy itself, combined. Sound too far out there for your ideas? > >Again, I recommend some of my own publications wherein this issue is >specifically addressed in an unambiguous way. See H. E. Puthoff, "On the >source of vacuum electromagnetic zero-point energy," Phys. Rev. A, vol. 40, p. >4857, (1989); vol. 44, P. 3382 (1990). In this paper it is shown that the >self-consistent field solution over cosmological space of interacting fields >and matter leads to a cosmological feedback cycle (like placing a microphone >by a speaker) in which quantum fluctuations of charges generate fluctuation >fields, which in turn drive the charge fluctuations, with the ZPE as the >consequence. Do you allow that matter damps out the ZPE in any degree? Even if it is attenuating the noisy cosmological wave energy and re-emitting that same energy but at local spacetime oscillation frequencies (ie Planck scale E45 Hz fluctuations)? This is what I do and it appears to me to result in GR as a downward thrust due to the filtering mechanism. You can also then trace the energy density of the aether due to the increase in the number of solitons in a region and note an aether density gradient and thus a velocity of propogation differential. That in turn leads to a distortion to the spacetime topology, and you are now working with spacetime curvature and GR rather than with the filtering "Newtonian" force. The zero-point field fluctuations give rise to measurable >effeects in quantum mechanics. In particular, they account for the Lamb >shift... they induce spontaneous emission....are the source of quantum >noise.....source of the natural linewidth of atoms." If there is a source of the energy, ie cosmological distant objects, then in our local region, either that energy is conserved, or it disappears. The latter is not logical, though it is acceptable in accord with QM (which I find silly, frankly, as anything except a statistical means of experimental procedure, and not as the underlying reality of the sub atomic realm). So if the energy is conserved, then either everything is transparent, and the wave energy is not altered, or, certain regions initiate time delays in the passage of energy into and out of , some region (called a particle, or in my model, a solitonic resonance). If you have an underdamped oscillation in some region of the quantum vacuum, and in addition, you have some chaotic wave energy that is coming from afar and is not at the local spacetime frequency, then that wave energy can be attenuated at the incident frequency so long as the wave energy is again emitted at the local frequency of the oscillator performing the attenuation. Again, you get gravity from that more detailed description. To gain energy from the zpe, you would need to create some oscillation in a large amount of matter, and have that be in synchrony with some incident ZPE energy source such that you amplify the local oscillating matter by tapping into the incident energy of distant origin. Some frequencies ought to be better than others, and so the dimensions and frequencies of operation of zpe devices ought to be important. Ray Tomes would know more about which. > <<2. IF purported ZPE(vacuum) is based on the uncertainly principle, >then where is the energy (and time) coming from >to fill the TEM and other modes in a true vacuum?>> > >See above discussion and related textbook explications. Each mode acts as a >harmonic oscillator with the uncertainty principle's amount of energy (h-bar X >omega)/2. For a harmonic oscillator the uncertainty principle gives delta E X >delta T = h-bar/2. Since the delta E is (h-bar X omega)/2, the uncertainty >principle reduces to delta-omega X delta T = 1. This is because it takes a >time 1/(delta-omega) to know you are looking at a mode with frequency delta- >omega. Do you anticipate that there are frequencies at which interaction with the zpe is likely to be more energetic? ie, frequencies at which the quantum vacuum has excesses of energy density? Any with wavelengths around a micrometer? ><<3. What is ZPEc/ZPEv for 1 cm3 of matter and 1 cm3 of true vacuum?>> > >Formally, zero, since ZPEv is infinite. Folowing Wheeler, who gives arguments >that there is a Planck cutoff ~10^44 Hz due to quantum gravitation reasons, >the ZPEv is not infinite, only 10^115 ergs/cm-cubed. I came up with E111 eV/m^3 from aether condensation considerations at the Planck scale in electron muon and tauon solitons. So would agree that the energy density of the quantum vacuum is not infinite. Do you agree that the energy density of the quantum vacuum in the core of a star at density rho is greater if the core is fusing matter furiously, than it would be at the same matter density but where it is not fusing matter? Hal, this is an important question so think about it based on your model. I am convinced that aether must be conserved. And that when you work with solitonic waveforms in place of material particles, that the property we call mass, is the amount of aether associated with the local resonance in excess of what would be there if there were only, "spacetime", in that local. Thus, mass, to me, is like a storm front where the ambient local pressure is greater, and so the density of the stuff making up the ocean you are in (this case the quantum vacuum) is as well, greater. There is an observable consequence of this analysis. When stars ignite, there should be a cosmological constant like spacetime curvature directed away from the star via the path of least resistance to that flow of excess energy density. That flow will be via the axis of rotation due to the lower amount of matter to pass through along that path. When new born stars (T-tauri) first ignite, there are jets which magically come shooting outward. Then later, when the helium burning process again ignites the core after the red giant phase, we once again see anamolous jets come flying out of the stars with chemical composition indicating that the material was dredged from the inner core of the star! Any way, just think about whether or not you think that the energy density of the quantum vacuum is finite. If it is, then mass to energy conversions in the center of a star come with a price, a disruption to the balance of the energy density of the quantum vacuum!!!!!!!!!!!! That excess energy density must flow outward, and I have dozens of images showing what happens to matter when it does. Including images and papers on our very own star, the sun. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:05:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18823; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:01:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:01:52 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:58:49 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1a57$655ccf20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"QEvVQ3.0._b4.koQiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: VCockeram To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; little@eden.com Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 8:32 PM Subject: Re: BLP action! >Scott, >Good start! >Now some suggestions: >(1) Run the cell with H2 and no KNO3 at first >(2) Bump the filament wattage up in steps from > the initial 10 watt input and allow the temps > to stabilize each time. (H2 gas in cell) >Find a filament power input that that will give the >desired cell temperature without burning it out. > >Then, add the KNO3 and try step (2) again. Good ideas, Vince. But,if you don't have a high pressure of hydrogen to Dilute the H2O formed, you still have BIG PROBLEMS! > >Another thought: The same protocall using He. > >Watching with much excitement in Las Vegas. I didn't think that anyone got excited in "Vegas". :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Nevada > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:11:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17651; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:53:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:53:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: Subject: Re: BLP action! Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:49:06 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1a56$0994d3a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TXCBp2.0.dJ4.-gQiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:59 PM Subject: BLP action! > > General comments: > > > 1] complete removal-extraction-gettering of water is probably a >must. Try bake out methods, flush with dry nitrogen and put in the DRY >nitrate or nitrite. Come on. John. Potassium Nitrate is the Oxidizer for Gunpowder. :-) H2 + KNO3 or KNO2, Dryer than a Popcorn Fart is gonna make water. (which reminds me :-). Do you suggest a Magnesium wool or Titanium Sublimation "Getter"? Why use an oxide compound as a potassium "carrier" in the first place? How about Potassium Metal in a small quantity, or Potassium Cyanide (KCN)? :-). Scott may be crazy, but he ain't stupid. :-) Regards, Frederick > > J > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:18:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18291; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:56:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:56:44 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:59:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"cUmHk2.0.iT4.wjQiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:52 PM 1/5/98, Scott Little wrote: [snip] > >1. I checked an ordinary 75 watt light bulb's filament temp. When >operating it runs at 14.2 times the room temperature resistance which >corresponds to about 2350C. Maybe you need a visual on the filiment, etc. Maybe glass fibers, or a glass plug? > >2. I disassembled the chamber and observed the following: > >a. the KNO3 (0.3 grams initially) is virtually all gone. There is a >little melted KNO3 stuck in the cracks of my pan but the rest is just gone! I stuck some KNO3 on a 1.5" steel washer on a hotplate and turned it on. The KNO3 disappeared, left a big black spot on the washer, and smelled the house up with a very acrid smell I assume is K related. Maybe the KNO3 oxidizing the H2 atmosphere heated it up a lot hotter than 200 oC. Your experiment makes one wonder how BLP did this! > >b. there is a black soot-like coating on the parts of the apparatus that >directly faced the KNO3 pan, as if the KNO3 emitted soot somehow. It is >A.C.S. 99+% KNO3. There is no obvious source of carbon in the system. > >c. The filament parted in the center. Under the microscope I can see that >the tungsten wire gets progressively thinner and thinner as you go from >the termination to the center where it broke. Initially it was a constant >diameter. Fred Sparber's reduction by steam argument looks real good, doesn't it? KOH instead of KNO3 would produce less steam, less reaction heat, but it still will cause problems I think. The nitrogen isn't called out as necessary, is it?. Of course that wouldn't be replication then. > >3. Judging by the discoloration, the cartridge heater is getting a lot >hotter than 200C. The KNO3 pan is rather close to the cartrige heater. Could be K related discoloration. If you wipe with wet litmus paper - might get a strong base indication. General thought - it might be a good idea to "open up" the experiment for a bit and not worry about calorimetry - just worry about seeing and finding out what is going on inside when you go through the protocol. It would be very meaningful if you demonstrated the BLP protocol could not possibly create events according to the BLP explanation/theory. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:19:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19899; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:09:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:09:01 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:12:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Resent-Message-ID: <"JJgoc1.0.rs4.SvQiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:29 PM 1/5/98, Chetter Hummin wrote: [snip the hummin' chatter] Interesting moniker there Chetter! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:24:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22205; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:20:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:20:27 -0800 X-ROUTED: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:16:24 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <34B1B1B4.CBF526B0 southconn.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 23:23:16 -0500 From: steve/paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! References: <3.0.1.32.19980105175256.00b3e248 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZxLtW3.0.lQ5.94Riq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Looking at the apparatus on your web page, it looks to me like the filament stretched andbroke when heated....needs support, maybe lay it on a ceramic beam, and put the basket over it....steve > to the tungsten filament (removed from a 100 watt light bulb). Immediately > > Now, what happened!? Here are some clues and observations: > > > c. The filament parted in the center. Under the microscope I can see that > the tungsten wire gets progressively thinner and thinner as you go from > the termination to the center where it broke. Initially it was a constant > diameter. > > You may wish to refresh your memory of the apparatus by looking at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html > > Any comments or suggstions would be greatly appreciated. Time is of the > essence. I will try _something_ else tomorrow. Get your 2-bits in ASAP. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:33:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24565; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:30:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:30:02 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:33:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"BxA2G2.0.a_5.6DRiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:20 PM 1/5/98, Puthoff wrote: >In a message dated 1/4/98 1:25:31 PM, Mitchell Swartz asked: > ><< 1. If purported ZPE(vacuum) is background electromagnetic radiation >penetrating through interplanetary space, then some call >it "background EM radiation". Is it?>> > >Yes, it is a form of background radiation. But is it not the 3-degree Kelvin >thermal residual radiation left over from the Big Bang (the so-called >microwave background), which is in addition to the zero-point energy. The >term "zero-point" labels that contribution in addition to the thermal that >would exist even at 0 degrees Kelvin - i.e., is independent of temperature. [snip] If this is the case, that ZPE is a form of background radiation, i.e. if the vacuum creates photonic energy, why wouldn't the background temperature be measured as higher? Wouldn't the ZPE photons add to the background photons sensed by COBE or the VLA? The vacuum does not create photons except in the proximity of matter, or on its boundaries, or intercting with EM fields? If ZPE photon creation is a vacuum volume effect, it seems like we should all be crispy critters! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 20:33:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24538; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:29:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:29:57 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:33:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Cc: Resent-Message-ID: <"OqIlZ3.0.J_5.4DRiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:49 PM 1/5/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >Why use an oxide compound as a potassium "carrier" in the first place? Replication. Of exactly what is the question. 8^) > >How about Potassium Metal in >a small quantity, or Potassium Cyanide (KCN)? :-). Potassium amide (Potassamide, KNH2), would work - melts at 330 oC, sublimates at 400 oC, and still provides N. Potassium azide (KN3), might work - melts at 350 oC in a vacuum. No evaporation data available. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 21:16:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02327; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:12:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:12:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:15:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"qad6k2.0.8a.uqRiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems like there are really three important approaches that could be going on here. One is to replicate the experiment as faithfully as possible, and see if there is excess heat, regardless any theories that might be involved. If not, it is then just a matter of reporting the result. If positive, or if negative and BLP will then either explain the negative result and corrective action, or assist with the experiment, then all to the good. Another, far more difficult approach than the first, and totally open ended due to the infinite degrees of freedom, is to attempt to make the experiment work using the principles espoused in the theory. We could all work lifetimes on that. A third and independent approach is to determine if the experiment matches the conditions and requirements of the theory, regardless of results. From my lengthy discussion of the BLP experiment here on vortex with Robin van Spaandonk, I think there is already plenty of indication that the K+ ion environment required for the proposed catalysis may not be created in the cell, at least not in concentrations that can support the reported levels of excess heat. It may be that other conditions in the cell should also be examined to see if they are not as imagined or reported. It seems to me that replication should be the prime goal, and determining if the experimental environment matches the theory and reports should be a secondary goal. Attempting to "make it work", as fun as that sounds, should be a last priorty, IMHO. Well, Scott, there's some words - its your call! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 21:44:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02429; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:28:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:28:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980105232805.00819a20 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 23:28:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: <01bd1a44$aec227e0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Gmk8g3.0.sb.J4Siq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Good input! I forgot to mention that I did bake out the chamber under vacuum at 100-200C for several hours on Friday before starting any of this stuff. Fred S. thinks the KNO3 is reacting with the H2...maybe so...any other chemists out there? Mike, the books I have say that KNO3 decomposes upon heating into KNO2 and O. That would fit with the filament getting eaten away AND with the anomalous pressure rise. Fred said that K forms black stuff with metals...I forgot to mention, Fred, that the ceramic tube which contains the thermocouple leads also was coated with black stuff...just as if the black stuff was sprayed out of the KNO3 pan. Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not above a stove-top element. Vince, your suggestions are most reasonable. I'll bet that the filament never burns out when the KNO3 is gone. I don't know if I'll have the patience to try that tommorrow! Steve, there was no indication that the filament sagged. The two pieces were still quite short. I really think it was eaten away. John S. Perhaps an auto bulb filament would be better...they are much thicker. I don't particularly like going to low voltage and high current...I'm wired for lower currents right now. My comment: Maybe this "problem" with pure KNO3 is what prompted BLP to move to the other catalyst formulation...a few percent KNO3 mixed with 1%-Pd-on-graphitic-carbon. Horace I am only interested in replication at this point. Until I have demonstrated that the effect actually exists, I have almost zero interest in a theory that explains the effect. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:24:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12828; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:14:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:14:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:17:16 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"LEwrX3.0.H83.hkSiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:28 PM 1/5/98, Scott Little wrote: > >Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that >fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books >say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not >above a stove-top element. The little hot plate I used had a stove element on top. Maybe hot plate isn't the right word. Also, I really just don't know how hot it got. Also, it wasn't a pristene washer, it was a bit rusty. It was just a quick check to see what happens. I can try it again more carefully tomorrow when the house clears out of people. 8^} [snip] >John S. Perhaps an auto bulb filament would be better...they are much >thicker. I don't particularly like going to low voltage and high >current...I'm wired for lower currents right now. Seems like the main question should be: what did BLP use for a filiment? Also, where was it positioned in relation to the KNO3 may be important? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:28:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07708; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:19:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:19:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:14:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1a6a$639979a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"NHmtD2.0.Iu1.YpSiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 10:31 PM Subject: Re: BLP action! >Good input! > >I forgot to mention that I did bake out the chamber under vacuum at >100-200C for several hours on Friday before starting any of this stuff. > >Fred S. thinks the KNO3 is reacting with the H2...maybe so...any other >chemists out there? You can probably get the H2-KNO3 reaction to go at less than 100 C. :-) > >Mike, the books I have say that KNO3 decomposes upon heating into KNO2 and >O. That would fit with the filament getting eaten away AND with the >anomalous pressure rise. > >Fred said that K forms black stuff with metals...I forgot to mention, Fred, >that the ceramic tube which contains the thermocouple leads also was coated >with black stuff...just as if the black stuff was sprayed out of the KNO3 pan. H2-KNO3-pan metal decomposition products very likely. What is the pan made of? > >Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that >fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books >say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not >above a stove-top element. > >Vince, your suggestions are most reasonable. I'll bet that the filament >never burns out when the KNO3 is gone. I don't know if I'll have the >patience to try that tommorrow! I'll take a piece of that bet. :-) > >My comment: Maybe this "problem" with pure KNO3 is what prompted BLP to >move to the other catalyst formulation...a few percent KNO3 mixed with >1%-Pd-on-graphitic-carbon. Here's a quote. "Whenever any compounds containing Carbon and Nitrogen are heated with Potassium, Potassium Cyanide Results." I wasn't really kidding about the KCN in the experiment if there is any Carbon in the setup somewhere. A large excess of Hydrogen will hydrogenate the cyanide to innocuous compounds. Except in Comets. :-) SO BE CAREFUL! Regards, Frederick > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:28:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07667; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:19:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:19:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:21:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"3i-1I3.0.ft1.NpSiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:28 PM 1/5/98, Scott Little wrote: > >Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that >fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books >say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not >above a stove-top element. The little hot plate I used had a stove element on top. Maybe hot plate isn't the right word. Also, I really just don't know how hot it got. Also, it wasn't a pristene washer, it was a bit rusty. It was just a quick check to see what happens. I can try it again more carefully tomorrow when the house clears out of people. 8^} I could put the KNO3 in an oven. What temperature, or temperature steps would you like, and what metal to put the KNO3 on/near. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:29:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08630; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:26:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:26:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:28:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"7YPN31.0.m62.7wSiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:28 PM 1/5/98, Scott Little wrote: > >Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that >fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books >say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not >above a stove-top element. The little hot plate I used had a stove element on top. Maybe hot plate isn't the right word. Also, I really just don't know how hot it got. Also, it wasn't a pristene washer, it was a bit rusty. It was just a quick check to see what happens. I can try it again more carefully tomorrow when the house clears out of people. 8^} I could put the KNO3 in an oven. What temperature, or temperature steps would you like, and what metal to put the KNO3 on/near. Oh $#*^%$, that's oC not oF. My oven just doesn't cook that hot! Don't have a thermocouple either. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:50:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17379; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:47:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:47:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:47:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801060647.WAA05664 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"SEocV.0.OF4.sDTiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace said: >I could put the KNO3 in an oven. but Fred cautioned: >"Whenever any compounds containing Carbon and >Nitrogen are heated with Potassium, Potassium >Cyanide Results." peanut gallery says: Many ovens have plenty of carbon available... careful there, Horace! -Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:51:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16776; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:43:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:43:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34B1C4B2.72F0 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 23:44:18 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: "Expert" Shanahan re Carrell re Arata spillover effect References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hF7NV.0.264.p9Tiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Carrell: Expert on Arata spillover effect Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:11 -0400 (EDT) From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov To: rmforall earthlink.net Rich, Since you forwarded this vortex comment, I guess you feel it deserves a response. OK, will do, but I will note that the author doesn't seem to have understood my comments, or even the general process of scientific analysis, as he attacks my writings based on his interpretations and extensions, rather than on what I wrote. Note: "> " indicates Mike Carrel's comments. "> >" indicates my comments. Rich Murray did not add any commentary to the post at all, except the first line. Mike Carrel wrote: > Rich forwards an anonymous commentary: > > > > An expert, skilled in the art, comments: > > > > I would like to address the Arata and Zhang (A&Z) claim of excessively > > high loading inside the Pd black located inside their DS cathode. > > Let me jump to the conclusion...I don't believe the A&Z claim. > > Which claim? High loading or excess energy? We shall see. > Case in point. The title was "Expert on Arata spillover effect", the first sentence says "like to address...excessively high loading...". The caption of Figure 7 in the 1997 A&Z paper clearly states the Pd black is loaded to a different extent (higher) than the inner cathode wall. What is the confusion? How could I have been more clear? The topic is 'spillover effect' and its ramification in particular is the claimed excessively high loading of the Pd black. And I repeat for clarity, it doesn't happen. > diffusion) > > > One nice thing about the A&Z work (not just the 56 pager, but the > > rest too) is that it does give a direct measure of pressure inside the > > cathode. Unfortunately, their device was not capable of going > > higher than 900 atm., and the data clearly shows the pressure still > > rising. > > Yes! > > > In particular, note that they see the pressure increase in an empty > > cathode. > > This comment is incomplete. No it isn't. Is is a complete English sentence. It calls the pressure rise in the empty DS cathode to the reader's attention. Carrel's immediately following comments get to his real point, namely that I did not address the particle size issue, which is true. However, the lead off statement "This comment is incomplete." is an attempt at misdirection. By declaring my comments as invalid, he hopes to make his seem reasonable. Unfortunately, it simply shows that he didn't read. > Yes, the pressure rises immediately with the > empty cathode, and the run is terminate at 10 atm. What our expert does not > address is that with Pd-black present, the pressure does not rise for > hours, indicating **something else happening**. The delay is a function of > particle size. For the 4 micron particles, the pressure rise does not begin > for ~15 hours. This is the size used in the experiment, where the pressure > rises well beyond the 900 atm range of the instrumentation. The particles > are only a few thousand atoms across. OK, to address the particle size correlation. One well-known property of Pd during hydrogen (any isotope) loading and unloading is its tendency to crack. With small particulate Pd, this produces an average particle size reduction until a nominal size is reached. That nominal size is thought to be the size where the particle can sustain the induced stresses coming from the lattice swelling with loading without further cracking. This results in a unique problem in metal hydride field applications, where the metal packs down into the bottom of its vessel with repeated cycling. This in turn can cause swelling and rupture in the bottom of the vessel. Now here's the important point. After the hydride has packed down, space is freed at the vessel top, so more hydride could potentially be loaded in. Applying this to the A&Z data we can see that it is likely that more Pd MASS has been loaded into the fixed cathode inner volume with smaller particles. Why is the absolute Pd mass important? Because it will take more D to load to a given D/Pd ratio for a larger mass. Unfortunately the A&Z pressure sensor does not seem the appropriate one to observe the details of this effect. Instead we see only the end result, namely the point at which the pressure begins rising to high values. The fact is that the Pd's D2 absorbtion proceeds through an alpha to beta phase transition during the .1-.6 loading region. Like temperature in the case of ice melting, the pressure in this case remains constant during this transition region, and this is called the plateau pressure. The plateau pressure is temperature dependent, but for temps less than 120C it is less than 1 atmosphere. Examination of Figure 7 shows that the sensor seems to have no intermediate values between 0 and 1 atm. So clearly stated what I am saying is the most likely scenario to explain Figure 7 is this. Because of packing considerations, more grams of Pd can be loaded into the DS cathode with smaller base particle size Pd. The base D2 content as a function of time inside the empty DS cathode remains constant (assuming constant electrolysis rates, etc.) but the Pd black absorbs that D2 and keeps the gas pressure fixed at its plateau point. This is just the normal Pd chemistry seen with usual gas loading. Eventually the Pd loads us to the point where the beta phase is full, and then the pressure begins to rise 'normally', and the A&Z pressure sensor's lower detection limit is reached and it begins to register a signal. Note that the lack of experimental details in the A&Z paper preclude us from assessing this scenario directly. On the other hand if the authors had understood Pd chemistry, we probably never would have heard of the 'spillover effect'. A&Z try to use the observed internal pressure and Sieverts' Law to postulate some excessive loading. However, that is a strawman set up by A&Z, and it is incorrect. Sieverts' Law is for dilute D in Pd, i.e. <0.05 D/Pd ratio. At 1 atm pressure, D/Pd is near .6-.7, and Sieverts' Law has long ago ceased to be relevant. The 'extended' Sieverts' Law might be appropriate, but that is just an empirical correlation anyway, with no theoretical basis per se, so I would expect to see some deviation from the actual behavior anyway, particularly if the data range doesn't correspond exactly to the data range used to derive the correlation constant(s). To repeat the conclusion from my original note, there is an equilibrium between the Pd cathode walls and the Pd black, and both are loaded equivalently. The DS cathode is an interesting way to gas load Pd black, nothing more. > > > That observation leads directly to the Gedanken > > experiment I wrote up (see below). The point of that was to illustrate > > that if you have an internal D2 pressure, you will load Pd particles > > just like gas loading experiments. No difference. Placing the > > particles in contact with the cathode walls only provides a second path > > for loading, which will only affect how fast the Pd black reaches > > equilibrium. > > > > There are several interfaces in the A&Z cathode. Some are: > > > > - electrolyte-cathode outer wall > > - cathode inner wall and internal gas space > > - cathode inner wall and point contacts with Pd black > > - Pd black particle surfaces and internal gas space > > > > Every interface also has a surface region that can show slightly > > different behavior as well. All-in-all a very complex situation. > > But, equilibrium will eventually be established across all of them, > > and they will all end up being driven by the electrolysis > > conditions > > What this so-plausible discussion omits is the phenomena illustrated and > discussed in Fig 7 of the A&Z paper which very, very clearly shows that the > pressure is very strongly dependent on the particle size. > See above. I'm glad it is plausible (can everyone say 'ad hominem'?). > > (As an aside, A&Z in their 1994 paper in Proc. Jap. Acad. 70B claim > > the 'Spillover-effect' is actually D atoms migrating from the > > cathode to the Pd black particle _surface_ followed by rapid > > 'across-the- surface' D flow. So A&Z don't even consider bulk > > diffusion?? How would you measure that??) > > A&Z note the strong effect of particle size both in delaying the onset of > the pressure rise and its eventual magnitude. As for "bulk" diffusion, the > 4 micron particles are only a few thousand atoms across, so assumptions > about "bulk" diffusion may be irrelevant. > Again, see above. I also note that three pathways to load the Pd black and establish equilibrium exist, from the gas, from surface diffusion, and from bulk diffusion. Determining the numerical percent contribution of each is next to impossible in a single experiment. A&Z however, conclude somehow that gas and bulk diffusion loading represent 0%. I'd love to know how they do that... > > > > For the A&Z claim to be correct there have to be two unlikely > > things occurring. First, there has to be a mechanism to pump up the Pd > > black preferentially. This is unlikely because there will be an > > equivalent backflow of D at the wall contact points once a uniform > > concentration gradient is established in the Pd particle. To get a > > higher loading in the Pd black, you would have to block that diffusion, > > and since there is no reason to assume that 'left-going' D travels a > > different type of path from 'right-going' D, blocking diffusion would > > simply stop or slow down _all_ traffic. > > Once again, the anonymous author does not discuss the data shown in Fig 7, > showing a strong size-dependent effect. > Actually, I understand it far better than you apparently do. See discussion above for evidence. > > > > By creating a hollow cathode, A&Z have produced a unique pressure > > vessel. Their deformations, coupled with the simple concepts noted > > here, should warn everyone that they are dealing with serious > > potential for injury from catastrophic wall failure. I hope they > > (and anyone who replicates the work) are and will be quite careful! > > How interesting. High pressure is created inside the capsule solely by > electrolytic pressures, with no help from the strongly exothermic CF > reactions in the Pd-black? Remove the question mark and put a period there and you are right. Ditto the period after the first two words as opposed to an exclamation point. > Rich, who has been steadfastly denying the > existence of these reactions, quotes this expert as if this is an > explanation of what A&Z report. > It is, insofar as the scope of this discourse. > Now we have a potential bomb! Not quite. Bombs require exponentially rapid > production of hot gases which produce shock waves. As Rich notes, there are > only a few watts excess energy being produced. While there may be high > temperatures inside the capsule space, augmenting the high temperatures, as > evidenced by the partial melting of the Pd-black particles, the > instantaneous heat content is small. In event of rupture, this would very > quickly be absorbed by the electrolyte. > Perhaps this is ad hominem, but Carrel here has played an interesting trick. He has not bothered to quote the original text, which he does elsewhere in his note. I note this on the Internet a lot, whwever the author is trying to make an unsupported comment of a derogatory nature. Let me quote my original message: >>>By creating a hollow cathode, A&Z have produced a unique pressure >>>vessel. Their deformations, coupled with the simple concepts noted >>>here, should warn everyone that they are dealing with serious >>>potential for injury from catastrophic wall failure. I hope they >>>(and anyone who replicates the work) are and will be quite careful! Clearly what I said is you have a pressure vessel that can fail here. The failure could go a couple of ways. First a simple split might form. That would release the contained D2 in a 'jet' which might well ignite. Thus you could have a simple pressure release, or a hot flame lance coming out, depending on how much oxygen is around. Second, the vessel failure could produce fragments which would be flung out. They might have enough energy to penetrate the cell walls and strike bystanders. Yes, _in effect_ , A&Z do have a bomb. Ask McKubre about what might be the result. Carrel's misdirection attempt here is in extremely poor taste. A&Z DS cathodes have a possible problem, which could be fatal in a worst case. Denigrating my comments by omitting them AND ridiculing them is irresponsible. > particle size illustrated in Fig 7 of A&Z, and thus is not fully relevant > to the case> See discussion above. It is fully relevant. > > > What has this to do with "cold fusion"? > > > > As far as I can see, nothing. > > But what happens when the high loading is accomplished? > The same thing as when you load a normal Pd cathode. > > It is just _another_ way to load Pd electrochemically. > > Just? What about the degree of loading as a function of particle size? > > Mike Carrell > There a few more comments that need to be made here. First, A&Z seem to be typical 'cold fusioneers'. By that I mean NO RELEVANT EXPERIMENTAL DETAILS were published. That seems to imply to me that A&Z feel they have some psuedo-godlike status that means we should simply accept their pronouncements as fact. Sorry, I don't do that. Instead I look at the chemistry and physics to the limit of my ability, and evaluate the quality of the work. However, it is true that no experimental details is 'an automatic 7 point deduction from the maximum score of 10' on the quality scale. Further point deductions occur when you realize that the vaunted Figure 7 has a significant error in it. In their 1994 paper, A&Z present an amazingly similar looking figure (Fig. 6). Similar until you note the X axis units. In 1997, A&Z were developing 10 atm pressures in about 30-45 hours of running. But in 1994 they did it in 30-45 MINUTES. Of course, the knee-jeck response is to postulate a typo. I will await the erratum on the '97 paper, since ample time has passed for one to appear on the '94 work, but apparently has not. (Am I wrong? Is there an erratum?) Unfortunately, the knee-jerk response may not be correct. Depending on cell and cathode design and operating procedures, it might be possible to develop the 10 atm. pressure in just a few minutes. The lack of published details again makes it impossible to determine what the true state of affairs is. Figure 6 of the 1994 paper also presents some data for Ni powder which further supports my explanation of the 'particle-size correlation'. While Ni is a hydrideable material, it is so only at high pressures. At 25-65C, you have to apply approximately 5000 atm pressure to get any absorbtion (H/Ni reaches about 0.1 then). So, for the pressure range studied by A&Z, the Ni is inert filler. In that situation, the gas equilibrium is observed to occur even _sooner_ than with an empty cathode. Why? Because the void space is smaller, and a fixed mass of D2 will produce a higher pressure in a smaller volume (at fixed T). Same difference as comparing massive vs. small solid Pd cathodes. Finally, the last comments I would like to make revolve around the rapid ad hominem 'rebuttals' posted to Vortex when Rich had posted my comment. Mike Carrel's was the only one that even attempted to discuss issues. I have watched spf and Vortex for some time now, and one characteristic of certain posters is the vehement denial that the evidence supporting CF is weak. Since it is a 'denial' process, the arguments presented to support the 'rebuttals' are often flawed. However, attempting to engage in discourse with these people is a waste of time. Their committment to the CF idea borders on religious. As of the Carrel post, as listed in the archive, all the responses to my comments were of such a nature. I was even castigated for putting my conclusion up front for all to see (it's called an 'Executive Summary'). Further, these posters seem to feel an 'anonymous' poster is afraid, or perhaps unwilling, and most likely wrong. Well, if it matters (which it shouldn't) my name is Kirk Shanahan. I was on Vortex for awhile and I left for several reasons. Mainly the majority of the traffic was of no interest to me. But the quality of the thought on CF, which is the area I am interested in, was so poor, and the responses to my posts so emotional (when I got _any_ response), that I concluded I was wasting my time trying to discourse. So now I periodically scan the archives, skipping most of the posts, reading the CF ones, and chuckling over the entrenched and unoriginal defense of CF I see. Rich had noted earlier in a forwarded post of mine that I didn't want to participate in flame wars. In that he is right, they are a waste of time. By 'revealing' who I am, I of course now make myself open to email attacks. In preparation for that, I will say I will respond to those who seek to discuss and learn. I will not respond to flames. Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} P.S. For further (required) reading, I suggest Chapters 3 and 4 of "Hydrogen in Metals II. Application-Oriented Properties", ed. G. Alefeld and J. Volkl, Topics in Applied Physics vol 29, Springer-Verlag, 1978, ISBN 3-540-08883-0 (USA) & 0-387-08883-0 (Germany). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:51:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17540; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:48:00 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD1A34.D2B34EF0.JoeC transmutation.com> From: Joe Champion To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: BLP action! Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:20 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RO8ZH1.0.zH4.VETiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner [SMTP:hheffner corecom.net] Sent: Monday, January 05, 1998 11:21 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! At 11:28 PM 1/5/98, Scott Little wrote: > >Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that >fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books >say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not >above a stove-top element. [snip....] I could put the KNO3 in an oven. What temperature, or temperature steps would you like, and what metal to put the KNO3 on/near. KNO3 decomposes at ~400C in a "pure" state. However, there are mirages of chemical reactions that occur with an oxidizer. Placing KNO3 with Fe in an atmospheric environment can cause ignition of Fe (an associated metals) with the formation of NO(X) compounds. Check your history books, KNO3 was first recorded by Roger Bacon (an alchemist). However, it was also reported by the Chinese about 3,000 years before Bacon. Melting, boiling and sublimation temperatures deal with "absolute purity!" Joe Champion www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 22:57:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11851; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:52:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:52:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B1F021.3484 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:49:37 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Monopole Magnets References: <19980105205831.19304.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ownep3.0.1v2.wITiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts! Chetter Hummin wrote; > If ZPE is energy, and a magnet is merely a polarized conductor, then > the ZPE flows through it in only one direction, causing lower ZPE > pressure at one pole, greater ZPE pressure at another. However, the ZPE > "flows" from the excess to the area of deficiency, fulfilling the ZPE > balance... I love that new buzzword, Z P E ........ -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 5 23:39:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14251; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:21:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:21:54 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Incandescent Tungsten, Cyanides,and Hydrinos? Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:17:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1a73$244b0760$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"26sTe.0.bU3.GkTiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace, Whilst Scott is bird-dogging BLP protocol, consider reactions of K-C***N hitting the 2,000 K Tungsten filament, then boiling off the K, leaving - -C***N to react with H2 to form H-C***N and so on. Do you see any enhanced "Hydrino" formation from this? These are likely Stellar surface reactions (5,000 K) where the main ingredients are H, He, C, N, and O with a lot of the O being tied up as H2O (observed on the SUN).The H abundance is about a million against a few hundred ppm for the each C,N,and O. Have fun. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 00:06:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18234; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:03:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:03:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B1E532.1D1F gorge.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:02:58 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! References: <199801060628.WAA08931 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"up2RD2.0.pS4.rKUiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott: I am sure one or more of the other ideas expressed will solve the problem, but if not, please consider: > The wire wrapped around the ceramic tube serves only to attach > the upper end of the ceramic tube to the 6-32 stud. It may be that, as the KNO3 vaporizes, a plasma forms near the filament. Maybe that plasma has less resistance (between the middle of the filament and the "support" wire) than between the middle of the filament, and the end of the filament. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 00:05:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26348; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:01:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:01:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:04:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Incandescent Tungsten, Cyanides,and Hydrinos? Resent-Message-ID: <"2m92Z3.0.cR6.1JUiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:17 AM 1/6/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Horace, > >Whilst Scott is bird-dogging BLP protocol, >consider reactions of K-C***N hitting the >2,000 K Tungsten filament, then boiling off >the K, leaving - -C***N to react with H2 to >form H-C***N and so on. > >Do you see any enhanced "Hydrino" formation >from this? [snip] No, but here's a wild-eyed radical true believer thought for you! Maybe Scott's experiment was just starting to actually work when the W was vaporized, and ou energy was the cause of the vaporization, the site of the ou generation being the filiment surface. ANd anout the KCN I d o n'''' t see a n y problem do y o o o o o o o O X From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 00:05:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26157; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:59:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:59:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:58:25 -0500 From: Wolfram Bahmann Subject: re:Inertial Energy Converter claims 1000% Sender: Wolfram Bahmann To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199801060259_MC2-2E34-F08B compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA26129 Resent-Message-ID: <"qDWD81.0.bO6.nHUiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: to: KeelyNet JD Dear Jerry, this is a reply to your astonished note of the German Author and inventor named EWERTS. He is claiming a mechanical machine with o/u now already for some years. He also sells plans for about 300 dollars. But to my knowledge nor he or any buyer of the plans was able to successfully demonstrate any working prototype. Although some believe that his theory may show something, the more important experiment did not show up till today. - I regret that this seems to be another case of talking and talking without putting the things on the ground and demonstrate it. BTW: I'm certain about the potential of finding an approach to tap the energy sea !!! But we have to work out things seriously - have we ? Otherwise this is only some more food for our opponents. best regards, Wolfram Bahmann secretary German Association of Vacuum Field Energy From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 00:34:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19775; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:21:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:21:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:20:42 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re:Inertial Energy Converter claims 1000% In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ctL3M.0.uq4.4cUiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote: > enercy,enercy,enercy.. > "They" somehow could follow I was still talking ENERGY (of some type! :) > > to communicate with all. > -=se=- > > that could also be enerZy too! (my spelinf is questionable:) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 00:34:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19388; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:17:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:17:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:16:40 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re:Inertial Energy Converter claims 1000% In-Reply-To: <199801060259_MC2-2E34-F08B compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Rllkt1.0.kk4.KYUiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Wolfram Bahmann wrote: -snip- > to: KeelyNet JD -snip- > BTW: I'm certain about the potential of finding an approach to tap the > energy sea !!! But we have to work out things seriously - have we ? > Otherwise this is only some more food for our opponents. energy sea? and Jerry just metioned ZPEzpe! (love it!) - how 'bouts "ENERCY" for this elusive 'force/wave/power/connector?'? -- I know I got MORE listening time here at work bending an ear, then when I mention ZPE, ZPF(orce) O/U Aether... etc. "THEY" like the 'flow' -- enercy,enercy,enercy.. "They" somehow could follow I was still talking ENERGY (of some type! :) to communicate with all. -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 01:17:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01417; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:08:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:08:14 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:11:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: sulfonated polystyrene, x-ray focusing Resent-Message-ID: <"2TeJK.0.2M.yHViq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tom Miller kindly pointed out a site that deals with sulfonated polystyrene proton conductors: Polystyrene proton conductors seem to be getting more low cost and surprisingly good, with a proton conductivity of up to 0.089 S/cm. As some may remember, Patterson and CETI used sulfonated polystyrene cores in the Pd plated spheres that did so well at generating heat. Maybe I was asleep or something , but I didn't catch on that sulfonated polystyrene was a proton conductor at the time. Also some Tom pointed out some info of possible use to vorts focusing their x-ray ZPE: Thanks Tom! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 01:28:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24517; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:23:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:23:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:23:01 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [off topic] G.Washingtons.rail_gun(s) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"TKLH_3.0.y-5.TWViq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thought for tonight. ----------------------------------- "No Firearms, No Liberty" A quote from George Washington's address to the second session of the First U.S. Congress: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty, teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon and citizens' firearms are indelibly related. From the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99-100 percent of them by their silence indicate they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour." ---------------- Then our rail-guns too :) -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 01:45:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06660; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:41:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:41:36 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:44:47 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: sulfonated polystyrene, x-ray focusing Resent-Message-ID: <"iHNpB1.0.md1.DnViq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: "Also some Tom pointed out some info of possible use to vorts focusing their x-ray ZPE:" which of course should say: "Also Tom pointed out some info of possible use to vorts focusing their x-ray ZPE:" Sorry. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 01:56:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06626; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:41:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:41:31 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:44:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ZPE variations Resent-Message-ID: <"hqfOX3.0.Pd1.9nViq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:40 PM 1/5/98, Puthoff wrote: >In a message dated 1/3/98 4:53:38 AM, rvanspaa eisa.net.au wrote: > ><very well balanced internally, then a momentary mass deficit or excess >might "push it over the edge", and cause it to decay. >Hal, please speak up if I have just reiterated something you said>> > >I didn't say it, but given that "spontaneous" decay is in fact driven by >vacuum fluctuations, the above is a good description of what happens in >nuclear decay. > >Hal Puthoff Well, I just can't help it! 8^) An energetic orbital electron entering the nucleus, as they do often, seems far more likely to trigger a decay than some flea flicking wimpy little photon! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 04:35:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06206; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:27:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:27:19 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B212FB.72BD3EA9 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:18:19 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! References: <3.0.1.32.19980105175256.00b3e248 mail.eden.com> <34B1B1B4.CBF526B0@southconn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VE5hQ2.0.uW1.bCYiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You may wish to refresh your memory of the apparatus by looking at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html Hi Scott, What metal is used in the wire-mesh basket holding the KNO3? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 04:57:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07875; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:53:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 04:53:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Incandescent Tungsten, Cyanides,and Hydrinos? Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:48:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1aa1$5de3a9e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"75STa.0.ww1.HbYiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 1:06 AM Subject: Re: Incandescent Tungsten, Cyanides,and Hydrinos? >At 12:17 AM 1/6/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>Horace, >> >>Whilst Scott is bird-dogging BLP protocol, >>consider reactions of K-C***N hitting the >>2,000 K Tungsten filament, then boiling off >>the K, leaving - -C***N to react with H2 to >>form H-C***N and so on. >> >>Do you see any enhanced "Hydrino" formation >>from this? > >No, but here's a wild-eyed radical true believer thought for you! Maybe >Scott's experiment was just starting to actually work when the W was >vaporized, and ou energy was the cause of the vaporization, the site of the >ou generation being the filiment surface. > Aw Gee. And I was all set to load a Thermionic Converter with Potassium Cyanide and Hydrogen. Then heat it enough to get it started,then let it run on it's own. Can't match that 0.5 ev (mean)Solar temperature with a 0.2 ev Tungsten "plate" either, but the 1.2+ ev photons should create "Light Lepton" pairs and Hydrinos Too. :-) Don't "Drink the Hemlock" if you can't make your point. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:03:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10890; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:59:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:59:27 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:53:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Explosion ...Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5k2Dy3.0.1g2.-YZiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A] Wake up! Read about azides B] call BLP or ask someone who knows them to ... and ask about the K compounds. J On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 8:49 PM 1/5/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > [snip] > >Why use an oxide compound as a potassium "carrier" in the first place? > > Replication. Of exactly what is the question. 8^) > > > > > >How about Potassium Metal in > >a small quantity, or Potassium Cyanide (KCN)? :-). > > > > Potassium amide (Potassamide, KNH2), would work - melts at 330 oC, > sublimates at 400 oC, and still provides N. > > Potassium azide (KN3), might work - melts at 350 oC in a vacuum. No > evaporation data available. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:06:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12248; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:03:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:03:48 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:58:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: John Schnurer Subject: Yaaaa SCOTT!Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980105232805.00819a20 mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"22jmS3.0.D_2.3dZiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: a] the last line is it! b] weakest link is filament, so far. SO: use heavy or hevier filament and SUPPORT IT! J On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Scott Little wrote: > Good input! > > I forgot to mention that I did bake out the chamber under vacuum at > 100-200C for several hours on Friday before starting any of this stuff. > > Fred S. thinks the KNO3 is reacting with the H2...maybe so...any other > chemists out there? > > Mike, the books I have say that KNO3 decomposes upon heating into KNO2 and > O. That would fit with the filament getting eaten away AND with the > anomalous pressure rise. > > Fred said that K forms black stuff with metals...I forgot to mention, Fred, > that the ceramic tube which contains the thermocouple leads also was coated > with black stuff...just as if the black stuff was sprayed out of the KNO3 pan. > > Horace says his KNO3 disappeared upon heating and left a black spot...that > fits nicely. Do you have any idea how hot you got it, Horace? The books > say that it decomposes at 400C...that's above most hot plates...but not > above a stove-top element. > > Vince, your suggestions are most reasonable. I'll bet that the filament > never burns out when the KNO3 is gone. I don't know if I'll have the > patience to try that tommorrow! > > Steve, there was no indication that the filament sagged. The two pieces > were still quite short. I really think it was eaten away. > > John S. Perhaps an auto bulb filament would be better...they are much > thicker. I don't particularly like going to low voltage and high > current...I'm wired for lower currents right now. > > My comment: Maybe this "problem" with pure KNO3 is what prompted BLP to > move to the other catalyst formulation...a few percent KNO3 mixed with > 1%-Pd-on-graphitic-carbon. > > Horace I am only interested in replication at this point. ---------------------------------------- Until I have > demonstrated that the effect actually exists, Yes! I have almost zero interest > in a theory that explains the effect. > > > Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little > 1406 Old Wagon Road > Austin TX 78746 > 512-328-4071 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:14:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16651; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:11:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:11:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980106081021.0081a560 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:10:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hG-51.0.544.2kZiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:21 PM 1/5/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >I could put the KNO3 in an oven. What temperature, or temperature steps >would you like, and what metal to put the KNO3 on/near. stainless steel and 200C...then 300C...if your oven will go there. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:15:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16633; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:11:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:11:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980106080827.0082a480 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:08:27 -0600 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: <01bd1a6a$639979a0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DrrxA1.0.m34.-jZiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:14 PM 1/5/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >H2-KNO3-pan metal decomposition products very likely. What is the pan made >of? Stainless steel sheet. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:28:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17950; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:23:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:23:31 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "John Schnurer" Subject: Re: Explosion ...Re: BLP action! Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:19:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1aae$222c4440$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"M4GYH2.0.OO4.XvZiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: John Schnurer Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 6:52 AM Subject: Explosion ...Re: BLP action! > A] Wake up! Read about azides Don't have to,John. You need a Primer for the Hydrogen-KNO3 "Gunpowder". :-) If the the Cynanide "Elixir" don't get you, the explosion will. On the other hand, check out the concoctions that NASA uses for Rocket Propellants. :-) Regards, Frederick > > B] call BLP or ask someone who knows them to ... and ask about >the K compounds. > > J > > >On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: > >> At 8:49 PM 1/5/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> [snip] >> >Why use an oxide compound as a potassium "carrier" in the first place? >> >> Replication. Of exactly what is the question. 8^) >> >> >> > >> >How about Potassium Metal in >> >a small quantity, or Potassium Cyanide (KCN)? :-). >> >> >> >> Potassium amide (Potassamide, KNH2), would work - melts at 330 oC, >> sublimates at 400 oC, and still provides N. >> >> Potassium azide (KN3), might work - melts at 350 oC in a vacuum. No >> evaporation data available. >> >> Regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> >> >> > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:31:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18821; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980106082754.00828610 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:27:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: <34B212FB.72BD3EA9 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980105175256.00b3e248 mail.eden.com> <34B1B1B4.CBF526B0 southconn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KHVka2.0.ub4.N-Ziq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:18 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >You may wish to refresh your memory of the > apparatus by looking at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/prelim.html >What metal is used in the wire-mesh basket holding >the KNO3? The actual apparatus is a bit different from the photo. The stainless steel wire mesh is still there but there is a little stainless pan inside it which contains the KNO3 when it melts. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 06:41:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18566; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:36:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:36:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:33:32 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1ab0$108d3da0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tAQHR3.0.-X4.W5aiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 7:07 AM Subject: Re: BLP action! >At 11:14 PM 1/5/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>H2-KNO3-pan metal decomposition products very likely. What is the pan made >>of? > >Stainless steel sheet. 304 or 316 18-8 Chrome-Nickel I presume? These contain about 0.085 Carbon and 0.1 Nitrogen. Combine that with KNO3 + heat and Hydrogen and you WILL end up with the Black Potassium Metallates and Cyanide FOR SURE. Also the KNO3 and KOH (alkalis)against Alumina will give you the water-soluble Potassium Aluminates. Regards, Frederick > >Scott > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 07:27:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30787; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:20:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:20:13 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:15:50 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: "Expert" Shanahan . . . Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801061018_MC2-2E40-DDB8 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"j9kKP2.0.uW7.ikaiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:kirk.shanahan srs.gov Kirk Shanahan writes: A&Z however, conclude somehow that gas and bulk diffusion loading represent 0%. I'd love to know how they do that... People who would love to know such details should contact the authors directly and ask for them. There a few more comments that need to be made here. First, A&Z seem to be typical 'cold fusioneers'. By that I mean NO RELEVANT EXPERIMENTAL DETAILS were published. That seems to imply to me that A&Z feel they have some psuedo-godlike status that means we should simply accept their pronouncements as fact. . . . I have heard such statements many times from "skeptics." I do not understand this mindset. If you are not satisfied with the level of detail in a paper, you contact the author. That is why the author's name and address is printed on the first page. Journal articles are short. Most details have to be truncated. Years of work have to be boiled down to a few pages. As it happens, Arata & Zhang have published other papers with copious experimental details. Many of these papers are, of course, in Japanese, but as I mentioned Kawasaki has translated a long one. If the information Shanahan seeks is not in the earlier published papers, obviously he should ask for it directly. How else does anyone ever learn anything? If I had to rely on a single published paper alone, out of context, I would not be able to translate or review most papers. I look at the ICCF proceedings to find similar papers. If I do not have similar papers, I ask the author to fax me the referenced papers. I fax the author lists of questions. I have watched spf and Vortex for some time now, and one characteristic of certain posters is the vehement denial that the evidence supporting CF is weak. Since it is a 'denial' process, the arguments presented to support the 'rebuttals' are often flawed. . . . I disagree. I think Shanahan himself is guilty of vehement denials, sloppy thinking, and I think he left Vortex because he cannot support his own arguments. In March 1996, Shanahan proposed and proposed and proposed again the hypothesis that the Power-Gen demonstration flow rate was extremely low. I wrote an extensive, point-by-point rebuttal. He never responded. I will not burden the reader with the details, but for those who would like to do a text search for that debate, I will append the first two three paragraphs of my response. It was not a real debate. It was a typical useless exchange: the skeptic makes blunderbuss claims without quantitative analysis; someone (Logajan and I in this case) points out gross weaknesses in the skeptical case; the skeptic changes the subject and refuses to address the issues. However, attempting to engage in discourse with these people is a waste of time. We agree. So now I periodically scan the archives, skipping most of the posts, reading the CF ones, and chuckling over the entrenched and unoriginal defense of CF I see. A defense does not have to be original. It needs only be scientifically correct. The defense of cold fusion calorimetry is based upon old, long-settled experimental technique and laws, especially thermodynamics. There can be no other defense; Joule and others defined and solved the problems back in the 1840s. Cold fusion is conservative. I am conservative: I will never apologize for citing unoriginal defenses straight of 18th and 19th Century textbooks! Shanahan and the other skeptics who attack cold fusion are radicals who would trash the textbooks. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Here is the first part of my rebuttal from March 1996. I think my arguments were decisive. Since Shanahan never responded, either he agrees with me or he considers detailed, quantitative analysis beneath his dignity. The reader can unearth the archives and judge for himself who is right. Sub: Shanahan hypothesis Kirk L. Shanahan suggests that when the Power-Gen aquarium pump loop is completed, the flow rate might drop so much that the electrolysis power alone can explain the Delta T temperature: "So, to summarize, the PowerGen demo used a pump in such a condition that it was very near to the limit of its abilities to deliver flow. I believe that the flow measurement condition used by the demonstrators did not represent the flow in the closed loop. Further the electrolysis power used is very close to what it would take to reach the temperatures observed assuming a low or very low flow." Let us examine this hypothesis, step by step, in a quantitative fashion. During the 450 watt run, the electrolysis power used was 0.1 watts, and the temperature observed was 6.7 deg C. What would the flow have to be to fit Shanahan's hypothesis? He says the electrolysis power is "very close to what it would take to reach the temperatures observed." How close? How "low or very low" must the flow be? Let us work backwards, and pretend that it is a perfectly insulated cell. Okay, 0.1 watts gives 6 joules per minute or 1.4 calories. These 1.4 calories have to heat the water by 6.7 degrees, so 1.4 / 6.7 = 0.21 ml. So, in theory the flow rate must be a quarter of a milliliter per minute: a drop of water. In theory that should fit, but in practice it never would, for many reasons: 1. At such a low flow rate the device would cease to be a flow calorimeter ... * End of File * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 07:46:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04129; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:42:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:42:15 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B240DF.59A97717 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:34:07 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal References: <199801060350.TAA32649 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bxgL_3.0.O01.L3biq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: ... If you have an underdamped oscillation in some region of the quantum vacuum, and in addition, you have some chaotic wave energy that is coming from afar and is not at the local spacetime frequency, then that wave energy can be attenuated at the incident frequency so long as the wave energy is again emitted at the local frequency of the oscillator performing the attenuation. Again, you get gravity from that more detailed description. Hi Ross, Please explain your theory of gravity again to me. Jack Smith Ross Tessien wrote: ... That excess energy density must flow outward, and I have dozens of images showing what happens to matter when it does. Including images and papers on our very own star, the sun. Jack Smith writes: Do you have any of these posted at a web site? Jack From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 08:00:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07670; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:55:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:55:08 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B243ED.702EF38B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:47:09 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! References: <3.0.1.32.19980105175256.00b3e248 mail.eden.com> <34B1B1B4.CBF526B0 southconn.com> <3.0.5.32.19980106082754.00828610@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fqiIl3.0.mt1.RFbiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: The actual apparatus is a bit different from the photo. The stainless steel wire mesh is still there but there is a little stainless pan inside it which contains the KNO3 when it melts. Hi Scott, Is there any nickle in the stainless steel? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 08:30:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14125; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:27:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:27:21 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:26:40 EST To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, VLA ZPE farm, and Hal's comments Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"694TY.0.KS3.bjbiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/5/98 11:02:13 PM, hheffner corecom.net wrote: <> If you can figure out how to do it, that would be great! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 08:49:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18129; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:43:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:43:24 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <242996c4.34b25f1c aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:43:07 EST To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: ZPE question for Hal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"Kn9ui2.0.6R4.gybiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/98 4:34:29 AM, hheffner corecom.net wrote: <> The ZPE photons are absorbed and re-emitted, so are not detectable as a heat source. Sorta like sitting in a tub of water at 98.6 def F. The heat spectrum (Planck blackbody spectrum) is a complicated peaked exponential distribution sitting like a bump atop the cubic-freq ZPE spectrum. <> Absorption and re-emission in interaction with matter. Not with EM fields directly. <> Absorbed and re-emitted, so no roasting-toasting! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 08:54:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11278; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:51:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:51:23 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <118b914c.34b25c76 aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:31:47 EST To: soltis server.uwindsor.ca, vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: herman antioch-college.edu Subject: Re: Re: Re: How do you focus ZPE??? Re: sonic rocket & Jack Smith Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"NEWjU1.0.8m2.84ciq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/5/98 11:23:35 PM, soltis server.uwindsor.ca wrote: <> There are a few papers about transient Casimir effects that I hve seen by Eberlein and others (attempting to explain sonoluminescence) but I don't have the references handy. Time constants are pretty fast, if I recall (nanoseconds range). Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 09:08:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22467; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:00:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:00:34 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: "Expert" Shanahan re Carrell re Arata spillover effect Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:59:41 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980106170408450.AAA188 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"4qRtK1.0.nU5.mCciq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I thank Kirk Shanahan for his instruction and commentary on what Arata called the "spillover effect". He obviously has a much better understanding of these processes than I do, since they are well outside the range of my professional experience. It would have been helpful if he had included a bit more detail in his original post. > Case in point. What is the confusion? How could I have been more clear? The > topic is 'spillover effect' and its ramification in particular is the > claimed excessively high loading of the Pd black. And I repeat for > clarity, it doesn't happen. Point taken. > > This comment is incomplete. > > No it isn't. Is is a complete English sentence. It calls the pressure > rise in the empty DS cathode to the reader's attention. Carrel's > immediately following comments get to his real point, namely that I did > not address the particle size issue, which is true. However, the lead > off statement "This comment is incomplete." is an attempt at > misdirection. By declaring my comments as invalid, he hopes to make > his seem reasonable. Unfortunately, it simply shows that he didn't > read. Not quite, please. I wasn't attempting misdirection. I was also calling attention to the absence of a discussion of particle size. I did read, and carefully, but the absence of a discussion of particle size left open the question as to whether you had read carefully, and whether the "anonymous expert" really was speaking from deep knowledge. > OK, to address the particle size correlation. One well-known property > of Pd during hydrogen (any isotope) loading and unloading is its > tendency to crack. With small particulate Pd, this produces an > average particle size reduction until a nominal size is reached. That > nominal size is thought to be the size where the particle can sustain > the induced stresses coming from the lattice swelling with loading > without further cracking. > > This results in a unique problem in metal hydride field applications, > where the metal packs down into the bottom of its vessel with repeated > cycling. This in turn can cause swelling and rupture in the bottom of > the vessel. This is very interesting and would have been helpful in your original post. > Now here's the important point. After the hydride has packed down, > space is freed at the vessel top, so more hydride could potentially > be loaded in. Applying this to the A&Z data we can see that it is > likely that more Pd MASS has been loaded into the fixed cathode inner > volume with smaller particles. > > Why is the absolute Pd mass important? Because it will take more D to > load to a given D/Pd ratio for a larger mass. Unfortunately the A&Z > pressure sensor does not seem the appropriate one to observe the > details of this effect. Instead we see only the end result, namely > the point at which the pressure begins rising to high values. The > fact is that the Pd's D2 absorbtion proceeds through an alpha to beta > phase transition during the .1-.6 loading region. Like temperature in > the case of ice melting, the pressure in this case remains constant > during this transition region, and this is called the plateau > pressure. The plateau pressure is temperature dependent, but for > temps less than 120C it is less than 1 atmosphere. Examination of > Figure 7 shows that the sensor seems to have no intermediate values > between 0 and 1 atm. At least no points are plotted for less than 1 atm. So the plotted plateau pressure remains constant to the beta phase condition. > So clearly stated what I am saying is the most likely scenario to > explain Figure 7 is this. Because of packing considerations, more > grams of Pd can be loaded into the DS cathode with smaller base > particle size Pd. I'm not sure this is true, see comments below. The base D2 content as a function of time inside > the empty DS cathode remains constant (assuming constant electrolysis > rates, etc.) but the Pd black absorbs that D2 and keeps the gas > pressure fixed at its plateau point. Consistent with the evidence. Good. This is just the normal Pd > chemistry seen with usual gas loading. Eventually the Pd loads us to > the point where the beta phase is full, and then the pressure begins > to rise 'normally', and the A&Z pressure sensor's lower detection > limit is reached and it begins to register a signal. > Note that the lack of experimental details in the A&Z paper preclude > us from assessing this scenario directly. True. In this respect, A&Z seem to be recapitulating their argument for the special advantages of the DS cathode, which Arata has been working with for some time. On the other hand if the > authors had understood Pd chemistry, we probably never would have > heard of the 'spillover effect'. This seems an unwarranted comment about A&Z's competency. > A&Z try to use the observed internal pressure and Sieverts' Law to > postulate some excessive loading. However, that is a strawman set up > by A&Z, and it is incorrect. Sieverts' Law is for dilute D in Pd, > i.e. <0.05 D/Pd ratio. At 1 atm pressure, D/Pd is near .6-.7, and > Sieverts' Law has long ago ceased to be relevant. The 'extended' > Sieverts' Law might be appropriate, but that is just an empirical > correlation anyway, with no theoretical basis per se, so I would > expect to see some deviation from the actual behavior anyway, > particularly if the data range doesn't correspond exactly to the data > range used to derive the correlation constant(s). A&Z state Sievert's Law in quotes, suggesting that they are not applying rigor here, but continuing their argument for the better performance of their Ds cathode. > To repeat the conclusion from my original note, there is an > equilibrium between the Pd cathode walls and the Pd black, and both > are loaded equivalently. The DS cathode is an interesting way to gas > load Pd black, nothing more. This is a useful and informative commentary. You seem to say that the increased 'latency' time with decreasing particle size in Fig. 7 can be attributed to an assumption that more Pd-black of smaller particle size can be packed into the capsule than with a larger particle size, and that in each case this is what A&Z did. Let's take a closer look. The particles range from 2,000 u to 0.4 u. If they were spherical in each case, there would be gaps between the particles as illustrated schematically in Fig.. With full packing, the ratio of mass to gas is independent of the particle size until the particle sizes become an appreciable fraction of the capsule diameter. Other sources suggest this is about 1 cm (10,000 u) so there is less mass of Pd-black with 2,000 u beads than with 0.4 u beads. The 'latency' time for 2000 u and 850 u beads is about the same, and approximately doubles for the 0.4 u 'beads'. It seems reasonable that going from 2000 to 850 u beads would increase the mass of Pd-black in the capsule, but the total mass would not increase greatly with smaller particles. Indeed, since the photomicrographs of photo (a) on p40 suggest cubic crystals, the actual packing density is uncertain. This photo indicates a particle size of 0.04 u, whereas Fig. 7 goes only to 0.4 u. this difference is unexplained, and may well apply to different tests. What is very different with the decreasing particle size is the surface/mass ratio, which becomes much greater at 0.4 u as compared with 2000 u. A&Z make the point that with the large surface area of the loading can be rapid and complete. Kirk makes the interesting point that fracturing of hyrdrated metals can reduce the size to a point where the particle can withstand the loading stress. The 0.4 u particles would seem to already be in that range. What is not explained here is why the larger particles in Fig 7 show a pressure rise sooner. Is it because there is less mass present? Or that the loading and phase transition only occurs at the surface, and much more slowly into the interior of the larger particles? We are talking about gas pressure loading here, not electrolytically driven loading. So, I ask, could it be that the small particle size is indeed conducive to rapid and complete loading of the available Pd, as compared with cathode structures used by other experimenters. In this respect, the A&Z cell shares features of the Patterson cell; large surface/mass ratio, and a physical structure (spherical metal film) adapted to withstanding the loading stresses. Certainly deloading can occur, as seen in Fig 9, when the electrolysis current is turned off. > Actually, I understand it far better than you apparently do. See > discussion above for evidence. Yes, you do. Thank you for the instruction. :-) (beep bow). What I have not seen, and would appreciate, is a cogent discussion of the maximum pressure obtainable in the empty capsule if the time period of measurement were extended. Here we deal only with the driving pressure of the electrolysis, which many authors from P&F forward have indicated can be very great indeed. Would such pressure alone rupture the vessel? > > > > > > > > By creating a hollow cathode, A&Z have produced a unique pressure > > > vessel. Their deformations, coupled with the simple concepts noted > > > here, should warn everyone that they are dealing with serious > > > potential for injury from catastrophic wall failure. I hope they > > > (and anyone who replicates the work) are and will be quite careful! > > > > How interesting. High pressure is created inside the capsule solely by > > electrolytic pressures, with no help from the strongly exothermic CF > > reactions in the Pd-black? > > Remove the question mark and put a period there and you are right. > Ditto the period after the first two words as opposed to an > exclamation point. > > > Rich, who has been steadfastly denying the > > existence of these reactions, quotes this expert as if this is an > > explanation of what A&Z report. > > > > It is, insofar as the scope of this discourse. And this discourse is limited to the discussion of loading mechanisms of the Pd black. It does not touch on what happens when the loading reaches a critical level. > > > Now we have a potential bomb! Not quite. Bombs require exponentially rapid > > production of hot gases which produce shock waves. As Rich notes, there are > > only a few watts excess energy being produced. While there may be high > > temperatures inside the capsule space, augmenting the high temperatures, as > > evidenced by the partial melting of the Pd-black particles, the > > instantaneous heat content is small. In event of rupture, this would very > > quickly be absorbed by the electrolyte. > > > > Perhaps this is ad hominem, but Carrel here has played an interesting > trick. It wasn't a trick. I was off base, and have been corrected by others. But I was wondering if concerns about explosions of high pressures in small volumes are not overstated. The total energy and possible failure modes have to be considered. I should have expressed this in a more inquisitive mode, as I have admonished Rich to do. > Clearly what I said is you have a pressure vessel that can fail here. > The failure could go a couple of ways. First a simple split might > form. That would release the contained D2 in a 'jet' which might well > ignite.Thus you could have a simple pressure release, or a hot flame > lance coming out, depending on how much oxygen is around. Inside the aqueous electrolyte in a closed cell? Second, > the vessel failure could produce fragments which would be flung out. > They might have enough energy to penetrate the cell walls and strike > bystanders. > > Yes, _in effect_ , A&Z do have a bomb. Ask McKubre about what might > be the result. Carrel's misdirection attempt here is in extremely > poor taste. A&Z DS cathodes have a possible problem, which could > be fatal in a worst case. Denigrating my comments by omitting them > AND ridiculing them is irresponsible. I stand corrected. > > > What has this to do with "cold fusion"? > > > > > > As far as I can see, nothing. > > > > But what happens when the high loading is accomplished? > > > > The same thing as when you load a normal Pd cathode. > > > > It is just _another_ way to load Pd electrochemically. > > > > Just? What about the degree of loading as a function of particle size? > > > > Mike Carrell > > > > There a few more comments that need to be made here. First, A&Z seem > to be typical 'cold fusioneers'. By that I mean NO RELEVANT > EXPERIMENTAL DETAILS were published. That seems to imply to me that > A&Z feel they have some psuedo-godlike status that means we should > simply accept their pronouncements as fact. Sorry, I don't do that. > Instead I look at the chemistry and physics to the limit of my > ability, and evaluate the quality of the work. However, it is true > that no experimental details is 'an automatic 7 point deduction from > the maximum score of 10' on the quality scale. Fig 6 and 8 and the extensive discussion of the QEM measurements are not "relevant experimental details?" This discussion is about Fig 7 and Appendix 1 of a 56 page paper. Kirk's grade may be appropriate for this small section of the report. It actually has no bearing on the validity or a proper grade on the report as a whole, and the lack of detail is appropriate since the main thrust is elsewhere. > Further point deductions occur when you realize that the vaunted > Figure 7 has a significant error in it. In their 1994 paper, A&Z > present an amazingly similar looking figure (Fig. 6). Similar until > you note the X axis units. In 1997, A&Z were developing 10 atm > pressures in about 30-45 hours of running. But in 1994 they did it > in 30-45 MINUTES. Of course, the knee-jeck response is to postulate > a typo. I will await the erratum on the '97 paper, since ample time > has passed for one to appear on the '94 work, but apparently has not. > (Am I wrong? Is there an erratum?) I don't have the 1994 paper. Fig 6 in my paper refers to cell calorimetery calibration. Is the error real, or apparent? Let neither of us jump to hasty conclusions. > > Finally, the last comments I would like to make revolve around the > rapid ad hominem 'rebuttals' posted to Vortex when Rich had posted my > comment. Mike Carrel's was the only one that even attempted to > discuss issues. Thank you, I try to. > I have watched spf and Vortex for some time now, and one > characteristic of certain posters is the vehement denial that the > evidence supporting CF is weak. Since it is a 'denial' process, the > arguments presented to support the 'rebuttals' are often flawed. There is an important detail which may have escaped Kirk's notice, and Rich has not responded to it, even though I have pointed it out before. Since we are discussing Pd-black, the photomicrographs on p40 are important. The non-deuterated particles have a discrete crystalline appearance, apparently cubic. The deuterated (and processed) particles have a clear rounded appearance and apparent fusing of touching points. There is no evidence of fracturing. Since Pd melts at 1553 C, here is direct evidence of very high temperatures in the Pd black. Can this be produced by pressure loading, or does something else happen when the loading reaches a critical level? And if high temperatures are produced by "something else", could this also contribute to the pressure rise seen in the capsule, and the data of Fig 9? Is this not strong evidence of a CF reaction, in addition to sustained production of megajoules of energy and the appearance of He in the Pd black after processing? There is denial and vehemence on both sides, and quasi and literal ad hominem attacks from both sides. Kirk's statement "vehement denial that the evidence supporting CF is weak" is itself a form of the same denial of which he accuses some supporters. In this debate, there is a strong tendency for what I have termed literary criticism. The vehement critic grades the paper on the punctuation and typographical errors, or the omission of details pertaining to his specialty, or the failure to address a problem with some other paper, all the time avoiding the main issue reported on. Some vehement supporters deal with personal, hands-on evidence of macroscopic effects: the room got hot, the plane took off, circled, and landed, etc. I see the present A&Z paper as containing strong evidence supporting the association of excess heat and the appearance of 4He and 3He. Rich has raised one objection after another, mostly pertaining to conjectures about how the "noisy" data could have occurred. Even Dieter Britz has conceded that the 'noise' band is less than the 'signal', and there is something real and interesting to study. The discussion of loading, Pd-black, the DS cathode structure, possible explosions, are all beside the point of the paper. Arata has discussed the DS cathode for some time, I understand. He believes it has special advantages in obtaining rapid and complete loading. Kirk argues that it has no 'magical' properties. All this is a distraction from the main point of the paper, calorimetric evidence of sustained excess energy production associated with careful QEM measurements showing the production of nuclear ash, 4He and 3He, in the cathode material, and photomicrographic evidence of very high temperatures produced in the Pd back particles. > Rich had noted earlier in a forwarded post of mine that I didn't want > to participate in flame wars. In that he is right, they are a waste > of time. They sure are, which is why I don't read spf anymore. By 'revealing' who I am, I of course now make myself open to > email attacks. In preparation for that, I will say I will respond to > those who seek to discuss and learn. I will not respond to flames. > > Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 10:38:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11582; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:31:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:31:28 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:31:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199801061831.KAA06733 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"JGXN_.0.tq2.zXdiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ross Tessien wrote: > > ... If you have an underdamped oscillation in some region > of the quantum vacuum, and in addition, you have some chaotic > wave energy that is coming from afar and is not at the > local spacetime frequency, then that wave energy can > be attenuated at the incident frequency so long as the > wave energy is again emitted at the local frequency of the > oscillator performing the attenuation. > > Again, you get gravity from that more detailed description. > > Hi Ross, > > Please explain your theory of gravity again to me. Greetings Jack; I have done so in many archived articles in vortex and on the web, so you have thousand or so articles for background posted by me. No, I don't yet have a web site, but am currently writing a book and have about 30 illustrations for that book now, showing aether emission from stars etc., none of which are anticipated today. As well, I have the Hubble space photographs which look a lot like what one would expect if stars emit the stuff of what we call empty space, or quantum vacuum, or spacetime foam. As for gravity, the first thing you must do is to understand the notion of a spherical ball immersed in a continuous, compressible, ideal, fluid. Just imagine that ball oscillating radially in out in out continuously until all of your space around the ball is permeated by a standing wave. Now you can bring in a second ball that is also oscillating and you can now consider how two or more balls will interact. The ball diameter is at the Planck scale, E-35 meters, the wavelength of the waves is E-35 meters, the frequency of oscillation is at E45 Hz, and that structure is an electron. The question now becomes, how, via sending in wave energy, do you get that ball to move or to accelerate? And how, is that ball kept continuously buzzing. The continuous buzzing comes from what we call, spacetime and think of as a metric. It must be an acoustic manifold of standing waves if solitons are "particles". But when you get used to the notion, this makes a lot more sense that a structure of acoustic energy will be "curved" or distorted due to incident wave energy from around the universe. Thomson (Kelvin) and Bjerknes studied the standing waves in the 1870's and found that if the standing waves were in certain phase relations, you could accelerate them. ie, if their waves were at 0 degrees resonance, they would repulse and if at 180 they would attract and if at 90 or 270 they would be "neutral" to one another. I think that represents, +, - and neutral + and neutral - respectively. So if two of the pulsating spheres are at some phase angle, you can get their resonances to accelerate just like EM. This is known and proven. I have posed further questions. It turns out, I think, that the nuclear force is due to solitons coupling directly, and the EM forces are due to solitons coupling via sending out their wave energy into the surrounding spacetime structure and topology of wave energy, and then it converges back into another soliton some distance away. Those solitons are not as tightly coupled in phase and frequency and so you have a loss of effeciency in coupling the waves and thus accelerating the "particles" That is why the electric force is weaker than the nuclear force. But, there is one more way that you can induce an acceleration to soliton strucutres. By filtering out some of the incident wave energy that is out of frequency match with the solitons oscillations. Note that all of the above phenomena were phase interactions, and so you could induce either attraction or repulsion. A frequency interference means that the wave energy does not synchronize with the local solitonic oscillation. It is like placing two pendulums on a wall. If they are forced to oscillate at the same frequency, and the little gusts of air interact, they will repulse or attract one another depending on the phase angle. And if they are at different frequencies, they will attract for a while, then repulse for a while back and forth cyclicly, but with no net force being imposed. So frequency mismatch in itself cannot accelerate two resonators relative to one another. But, if the aether is a non linear medium, which is what you need in order to form solitons, then you can get an interaction of frequency mismatched wave energy. It comes from filtering out the mismatched wave energy and then re-emitting it at the local frequency. In our universe, we have a huge amount of local wave energy right here in our solar system, and our galaxy. But, there is also a huge amount of energy incident upon us from deep space. And that wave energy is frequency shifted to the red due to the Hubble flow. So, if local matter can filter out and clean up incident quantum vacuum fluctuations that are out of frequency match with the oscillations of local soliton structures, then they will receive a push away from the source of that energy. So, the earth is pushed toward us due to the wave energy it is filtering, and we are pushed toward the earth due to the wave energy we are filtering, and voila, you have gravity. Le Sage demonstrated in Newton's time that the mathematics was identical for either of these models (ie pull or push). And when you work with the soliton model with a spacetime acoustic topology, you find that the density of the aether becomes greater in regions with more mass, and so you get a medium density gradient that alters the geometry of incident wave energy. So, the topology of "spacetime" itself becomes altered, or "curved" around objects that are massive Actually, there are a few key assumptions that give rise to all of the above. First, there exist in nature, no attractive forces. When the opposing phase angle resonances interacted, it was via compression and rarefaction waves, which are increases and decreases in the amplitude of a push, but there is never any truly tensile pull. Second, Aether must be conserved. This leads to mass conservation in nuclear reactions and to the anamolous phenomena outside of all stars that are burning their nuclear fuel. These begin with jets, proceed to fog banks (red giants), then to jets and planetary nebulae, then to the cinders, which can be white dwarfs, neutron stars or black holes. Third, it turns out that aether has two states, vapor and condensate. So inside of a black hole you must have a core, and not a singularity. And you must inertially ram the core with an inflow of condensing aether or it will breach confinement and blast back out again. The inflow velocity of the spherically convergent flow is c at the event horizon. And when a radically huge ball of aether breached confinement due to a slow down in the inflow momentum, that core exploded, boiled, and the droplets that eventually became trapped in the acoustic nodes are the same droplets I discussed above as the pulsating E-35m spheres, the acoustic nodes are the "fields" around the particles, and the sum of all of the wave energy of all of the interacting buzzing particles or solitons is spacetime. Fourth, fusion is the continuation of that vaporization process, but now rather than just run away boiling as in the big bang, solitons combine together in manners that shield themselves from that incident wave energy and lead to a reduction in the amount of aether they can confine internally. So some of it shoots outward, and you have a fusion or any exothermic reaction. All exothermic reactions are aether emissive. Fifth, the geometry of the universe (ie the big bang) must also be a resonance. And the geometry is identical to the electron resonance. What that means for infinity large and infinity of the small, I don't care to attempt to figure out. But what it means for us is that there is a uniformity to geometry and structure at a lot of scales, and it means that our universe is but one of numerous components in what I call, and Omniverse. That will be the title of the book, and in a few months I hope to get a web site up on the net showing you the images. Well, got to run. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 12:07:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10856; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:01:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:01:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:03:52 -0900 To: From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! - KNO3, in oven, results Resent-Message-ID: <"qUvgk3.0.Uf2.eseiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: KNO3 in an oven at 520 oF, 271 oC, in a pile on a stainless steel spoon, in ordinary atmosphere, does nothing at all. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 12:25:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14089; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:21:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:21:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! - KNO3, in oven, results Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:18:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1ae0$30f68260$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"LZ5fb2.0.1S3.S9fiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, January 06, 1998 1:04 PM Subject: Re: BLP action! - KNO3, in oven, results >KNO3 in an oven at 520 oF, 271 oC, in a pile on a stainless steel spoon, in >ordinary atmosphere, does nothing at all. Great! Now just add a tsp of Sulfur and Lard. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 12:42:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10460; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:36:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:36:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980106153453.0083e290 post.queensu.ca> X-Sender: simonb post.queensu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 15:34:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bart Simon Subject: Accountability in Research (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X4-i91.0.DZ2.sMfiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi, A friend of mine passed this "call for papers" to me. The call is for a special issue of the journal Accountability in Research on "the supression of research". There is certainly experience of this amongst cold fusion folks so I thought maybe someone here might be interested in submitting something. I am pondering the idea of trying to write something myself... anyone want to collaborate? I include the relevant blurb below and the web site for the journal is: http://www.gbhap-us.com/journals/149/149-top.htm -------------- ---------------- >Suppressing research data > >Contributions are invited for a special issue of Accountability in Research > >There are many cases in which access to research data is restrained. This can be >at the stage of doing research, as when researchers are denied access to >archives, databases or collections. It can also be at the stage of reporting >research, as when publications are censored or blocked. Restraints of this sort >include: > * defamation threats and actions used to restrain open discussion of research >results; > * intellectual property law used to prohibit the reproduction of data; > * secrecy within organisations used to deny access to information; > * national security legislation used to control areas of research; > * organisational power used to deny researchers access to information about or >retained by organisations and their members; > * editorial power used to censor publications; > * government or corporate destruction of documents; > * individual discretion used to deny access to data. > >These and related areas provide a fruitful source of insight into struggles over >research and accountability for it. Case studies can illustrate practices that >serve to suppress research data, the rationales used to justify this, and >possible strategies to ensure accountability. > >By its nature, researching the issue of 'suppressing research data' is >difficult. Because so much of the data about this issue is itself inaccessible, >there are limits to what can be expected of any particular study. Individuals >can write about their own experiences and some generalisations can be made on >the basis of the relatively few published accounts. This special issue will >provide a starting point for further investigations. > >LENGTH: There are no specific word limits. > >DEADLINE: The final deadline is 30 June 1998, after which there will a rapid >review process. All submissions will be read by the two editors and two other >referees. > >FORMAT: Include an abstract of less than 200 words and up to six key words. For >references use the author-date system (Smith and Jones, 1981) with titles of >journals and books underlined in the following style: >Manton, K.G., Stallard, E. and Vaupel, J. (1981) Methods for comparing the >mortality experience of heterogeneous populations. Demography 18, 3:389-410. >Draper, N.R. and Smith, H. (1981) Applied Regression Analysis (2nd Edition). New >York: John Wiley. >For more details and information about figures and tables, see any issue of the >journal or contact the guest editors. > >Queries and submissions should be directed to one of the guest editors: > >Professor Mark Diesendorf >Director, Institute for Sustainable Futures >University of Technology, Sydney >PO Box 123, Broadway NSW 2007, Australia >phone: +61-2-9209 4350 >fax: +61-2-9209 4351 >email: Mark.Diesendorf uts.edu.au ===================================================== Bart Simon simonb post.queensu.ca Dept. of Sociology http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/ Queen's University Kingston, Ontario phone: 613-545-6000 x7152 K7L-3N6 fax: 613-545-2871 ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 13:13:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16730; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:03:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:03:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 15:04:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: 2nd BLP config preview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tBY_M.0.C54.umfiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's all back together and baking out at 100C under high vacuum. John Schnurer got his wish...the filament is the heavier one from a 12v auto brake lamp...MUCH heavier than the first filament. This time there's only 0.1 gram of KNO3 in the chamber and it's in a little stainless "test tube" that is as far as possible from the heat sources. I took some pictures...I'll try to get photos and further description up tonight. The run starts tomorrow morning. Thanks Horace for the oven test. Yes, Jack, the stainless has Ni in it..it's in the 18-8 family which means it is 8% Ni. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 13:23:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20267; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:21:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:21:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:24:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! - KNO3, S.S. on spoon hotplate, results Resent-Message-ID: <"Uhg_y2.0.by4.O1giq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I placed the same pile of KNO3 on the same spoon used in the oven test on the same hotplate used in with the 1.5" washer that got the unpleasant results earlier. The KNO3 melted at just a bit above "LOW". Nothing further happened even when the heat was turned to "HIGH" and left for 5 minutes. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 13:38:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22085; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:32:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:32:48 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:35:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! - KNO3, in oven, results Resent-Message-ID: <"iHIz6.0.zO5._Bgiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:18 PM 1/6/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>KNO3 in an oven at 520 oF, 271 oC, in a pile on a stainless steel spoon, in >>ordinary atmosphere, does nothing at all. > >Great! Now just add a tsp of Sulfur and Lard. :-) Guess I have a sweet tooth, so I prefer to add sugar. Gets similar results, but smells a lot more tastey - kind of like roasted marshmallows. 8^) If not mixed right it leaves a black carbon deposit as well, from leftover carbon. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 14:20:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00425; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:13:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:13:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:56:30 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Please specify binary formats Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801061659_MC2-2E4F-33D5 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"c8luM1.0.X6.Dogiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex People occasionally post messages here in binary formats. Most appear to be HTML or MIME. Graphics are posted in various formats like JPEG (JPG) or GIF format. In some cases my utilities have failed to recognize the format. I would appreciate it if authors could specify in the message header: "Graph in GIF format" or "Text from HTML web page" or what-have-you. Robert Bass dispatches huge messages saying "This is a multi-part message in MIME format." followed by a mass of gobbledegook. I am not sure what it is or how to interpret it, and it takes up a great deal of space, so I forward these messages to that great bit-bucket in the sky. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 14:24:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01502; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:19:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:19:41 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980106080827.0082a480 mail.eden.com> References: <01bd1a6a$639979a0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:19:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: BLP action! Resent-Message-ID: <"YLja_1.0.IN.xtgiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Now that you are set up, by all means do a few runs but don't expect anything other than a null result and be prepared to cut your losses short. Everything about the BLP stuff is totally preposterious. Since you are doing a low pressure experiment the highly bogus "disproportionation" effect is operative. To quote from the Technology Insights report: "With disproportionation, a hydrino atom can catalyze further collapse of another hydrino atom. At lower pressures recombination of hydrogen and hydrino atoms into molecules via collision with other atoms is less likely, thus the reaction can be more effectively sustained." The idea here is that a hydrino forms and then will catalyze a further collapse of another hydrino atom. At higher pressures it is imagined that hydrogen and hydrino recombine into a molecule and it is further imagined that the hydrogen hydrino molecule does not participate in this further collapse. The problem is that the alleged hydrino formation rate would be proportional to the density of K tines the square of the density of H. So reducing the hydrogen pressure by a factor of 1000 less than atmospheric reduces the hydrino production rate by a factor of 10^6 . But of course, we need the "disproportionation" effect which would be proportional to the two body hydrino collisions. So the "disproportionation" effect is proportional to the binary hydrino collision integral while the destruction of the effect is proportional the three body hyrdino, hydrogen, other atom triple collision integral. Now the effect of the triple collision integral in gases is fairly well known and it is only significant compared to the binary collision integral at pressures around 10,000 atmospheres. So to preserve the "disproportionation" effect the hydrino production is reduced by a factor of a million. But the destruction of this effect only occures at very high pressures on the order of 10,000 atmospheres. There is no rational argument for the use of a vacuum and the resulting drastic reduction of hydrino and therefore energy production. The only explination I see is that there is no effect and it is only imagined that the vacuum is necessary. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 14:57:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06109; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:52:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:52:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980106163346.00a43484 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 16:33:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980106080827.0082a480 mail.eden.com> <01bd1a6a$639979a0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"X8IoX.0.MV1.nMhiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 17:19 1/6/98 -0500, Larry Wharton wrote: > Now that you are set up, by all means do a few runs but don't expect >anything other than a null result and be prepared to cut your losses short. >Everything about the BLP stuff is totally preposterious. Since you are >doing a low pressure experiment the highly bogus "disproportionation" >effect is operative.... Come on, Larry! I'm trying to enjoy the "pre-glow" that occurs when you've just gotten a new experiment running and haven't actually collected any data yet... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 15:49:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16836; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:32:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:32:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:29:05 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: BLP action! Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801061831_MC2-2E50-C924 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"NulyE2.0.z64.Iyhiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Larry Wharton writes: Scott, Now that you are set up, by all means do a few runs but don't expect anything other than a null result and be prepared to cut your losses short. Everything about the BLP stuff is totally preposterous. . . . I hope that Scott does not share Wharton's attitude. I trust he does not. Anyone who thinks the experiment is "totally preposterous" or who thinks that an experiment should be "cut short" after only a few days of work should never, *ever*, consider performing the experiment in the first place. This attitude is poison. I do not think anyone can succeed in any job starting off with such a negative, grossly biased view. You could not bake a cake, and you sure as hell cannot do ground-breaking experimental science. Of course, Wharton may be right. I do not understand the technical objections he raises, which appear to be based on theory, which I would never trust in any case. I have not evaluated the BLP work, and I am not competent to judge it. So I personally would not try to replicate it. However, I trust that Scott Little has done his homework. He must have a reasonable level of confidence in the mensuration techniques at BLP, and therefore a reasonably expectation that the work is worth replicating. After a few days, I expect that Scott Little will begin to learn what he is up against and what kind of problems he will face in this project. After a few weeks he will learn to do this experiment a lot better than I ever could, or Wharton ever would. After a few months, with skilled help from BLP (we hope) and a lot of luck I suppose he might master the technique. My impression talking to the people at BLP, and talking with Mizuno and others who have done gas loading experiments is that the job is roughly as difficult as gourmet cooking or brain surgery. It is absurd to think that you can master it or dismiss it in a few days! When professionals like Mizuno set out to replicate the Pons and Fleischmann work in 1989, they did not "cut their losses short" after a few days. As I pointed out here a few weeks ago, he worked to set up his first serious run for eight months. I don't mean he ran the cell, I mean he constructed it, calibrated it, purified the electrolyte with a getter, treated the cathode and did other preparations for eight months, six days a week, 12 hours a day, before throwing the switch to begin the first live run. I do not mean he was practicing. He has been performing similar electrochemical experiments for 25 years. People who are not willing or able to bring that level of skill and dedication to the field perform a disservice. In any other profession they would be a laughingstock. If a new hire programmer came to me and claimed she could write a 100,000 program in a week; or if she dismissed an assignment the rest of the team considered reasonable as "totally preposterous;" or that we should "cut our losses" and abandon a two-year project after three days of work, she would soon be newly fired. I would NEVER allow such attitudes in a development project. Any manager who would put up with such nonsense is incompetent. He is either letting people get away with sloppy, negative laziness, or he really is assigning impossible tasks. I hope that Wharton does not treat his work at NASA in this cavalier manner. Wharton concludes: There is no rational argument for the use of a vacuum and the resulting drastic reduction of hydrino and therefore energy production. . . . Cutting edge experimental protocols are never based on rational arguments. They are based on experience, trial and error, and sometimes theory. Theory may be a good guide, or it may be irrelevant. When this experiment becomes part of textbook science and it has been replicated thousands of time (assuming it works) then a precise guide and theory will be available. But now, at this stage, Scott must flail around blindly in the dark. Rational arguments are useless; there is no basis upon which to build a rational structure. Theory is little better than speculation now. The only question Scott should ask himself is: Am I replicating every relevant detail of the original work as closely as I can? Of course, it is impossible to know whether you have accounted for every detail, or to know how closely you must meet the tolerances. For all that Scott knows, a tiny trace of contamination from the stainless steel tray he uses might be totally botching the experiment, and eliminating any possibility of success. (Of course I have no idea if that is the case. It would take me months of going back and forth from BLP to Scott's lab to find something like that.) I have seen many examples of people who thought they had nailed every detail of a CF experiment, but where it was apparent to me that they had inadvertently made gross changes to the protocol. I mean, for example, people who left half the cathode sticking out above the waterline, or people who made no effort to purify the electrolyte, even to the point of leave gross debris, waste, hairs and insects floating around. These were honest but totally misguided "replications" without one chance in a million of success. Some of them, as we all know, were at major universities and National Laboratories, done by distinguished scientists. (Distinguished in other fields of course, not electrochem -- or any chemistry!) As I have said, they remind me of South Pacific Cargo Cult replications of airfields and radar sets. People who do not like to deal with so many unknown factors, and people who do not like to flail around in the dark without a theory to guide them should not be doing cold fusion. There are many useful, socially valuable, well established areas of science and technology open to people who like to follow the rules and do everything according to the book, with rational arguments. Programming, for instance . . . or engineering. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 15:51:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17342; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:35:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:35:09 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:29:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: BLP wish Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8mfSs.0.oE4.i-hiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Scott, My REAL wish is a 120 year personal loan, with no stipulation of re payement of 182 blocks, 157 kilograms each, 99.999 fine platinum .... gold is down SO far! John Do I get it? Do I get it? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 17:02:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06739; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:57:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:57:45 -0800 From: alansch zip.com.au (Alan Schneider) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Inertial Energy Converter claims 1000% Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 00:57:31 GMT Message-ID: <34b4d2f4.10736629 mail.zip.com.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA06680 Resent-Message-ID: <"KFbqJ2.0.Cf1.7Cjiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:20:42 -0700 (MST), Steve Ekwall wrote: _>On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote: _>> enercy,enercy,enercy.. _>> "They" somehow could follow I was still talking ENERGY (of some type! :) _>> to communicate with all. _>> -=se=- _>that could also be enerZy too! (my spelinf is questionable:) Are you sure it's not the keys moving around when you're not looking? Or that strange virus which affects every piece of computing equipment ever made that uses a keyboard, regardless of CPU, operating system or software; the one which ensures that the faster you type, the more keyboard errors seem to occur. Cheers all, Alan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 17:30:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12746; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:24:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:24:35 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:27:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Looking for Frank Znidarsic Resent-Message-ID: <"6cOGi.0.x63.Hbjiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Frank, Thanks for your reply. Sorry you changed your mind for a while. 8^(. Well, I still can't email you at FZNIDARSIC aol.com for some reason, so I'll have to go through vortex. How much longer do you think you will want to use the SC Frank? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 17:39:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14903; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:36:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:36:11 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B2CC11.2D35394F mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 19:28:01 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal References: <199801060350.TAA32649 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MBFtL2.0.Xe3.7mjiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: ... So, the earth is pushed toward us due to the wave energy it is filtering, and we are pushed toward the earth due to the wave energy we are filtering, and voila, you have gravity. Le Sage demonstrated in Newton's time that the mathematics was identical for either of these models (ie pull or push). ... Hi Ross, I appreciate the explanation. Do you have any references for Le Sage? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 17:41:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16027; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:38:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:38:25 -0800 Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:37:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801070137.TAA23916 dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki ) Subject: New Energy From a Double Structured Cathode using Pd Black To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: 72240.1256 compuserve.com Resent-Message-ID: <"M7hAK2.0.rv3.Dojiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 6, 1998 To Vortex, Recently Jed Rothwell has mentioned my name in refernce to a paper that Arata released dated May 31, 1994 in Japanese. The title of the paper is the subject line above. The copy in Japanese was generously furnished by Jed from my inquiry to 'Cold Fusion Advocates' about Arata and his work. Jed was perfectly capable of undertaking the translation effort at the time if he was so inclined. He was not, being satisfied to peruse it in Japanese. So, I took up the translation effort along with my wife. Jed was kept in touch during the effort and there were inputs from him. I took the road to sticking to a literal translation as closely as possible, equation and all with their math symbols. Jed suggested a more of a reader friendly approach along the line that you may see in IE. I felt that it was not my function to 're-write' the paper in translation so I kept to the literal translation. I appreciated Jed's input. The translation was done between Dec, 23, 1994 to January 1, 1995. It was a little before Eugene Mallove's first MIT Seminar in '95 and before going to the ICCF-5 to videotape the Conference. Having translated the paper, I finally had the chance to present it to Arata personally at the ICCF-6 Conference. Other than that, and a copy sent to Jed, I have kept the effort to myself seeing that most of the interests swirled around other cf interests. Recently, Arata & Zhang's work has popped up on the Vortex. It was started by Rich Murray's critique of their work. And there were some inquiries about information sources --- unfortunately most of the work was in Japanese except for the recent publication that came out after the ICCF-6. The translation work is, as written in the disclaimer, unauthorized. And it was not meant for wide publication except subject to the authors' permission. However, if it will help the discussion on Arata & Zhang's work, I am willing to e-mail the translation as attachments to individuals upon separate requests (I hope within reson) to me. Free! No charges. The translation runs thirteen pages of text plus six graphic files containing all the graphs that the text gives reference to. Also I have two additional graphic files that diagrams out the "QMS" setup and a line drawing of the electrolytic cell that Arata used. The text was written with Wordperfect v6.1. The graphics are either in GIF or JPEG format. Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 18:19:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09206; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:15:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:15:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:13:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199801070213.SAA27026 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Jack, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"WOlQn2.0.lF2.YKkiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ross Tessien wrote: > > ... So, the earth is pushed toward us due to the wave energy > it is filtering, and we are pushed toward the earth > due to the wave energy we are filtering, and voila, > you have gravity. > > Le Sage demonstrated in Newton's time that the > mathematics was identical for either of these > models (ie pull or push). ... > >Hi Ross, > >I appreciate the explanation. Do you have >any references for Le Sage? > Greetings Jack; Le Sage was a french royal I think who got into astronomy. The era was in Newtons time of course. He considered the notion of a gravitational shielding mechanism which used a flux of particles that were I guess, really tiny so that the earth is nearly transparent to them, ie such as neutrinos. Thus, the probability of hitting anything is low. In such a case, you can work with it, and Paul Stowe and Barry Mingst have worked out such a model including the amount of heat excess that should be observed from Jupiter and Saturn. The excess is there, but claimed to be due to helium rain inside which provides gravitational heating. I am not certain that the gravitational effect will induce thermal heating, so am on the rail on that one. I read about Le Sage in "History of Aether and Electricity", by Sir Whittaker I think it was. Cambridge books if I recall. Any way, if you wanted to buy the two book set, probably around $70.00, I could look up the info. In that book set they go from early scientists up through the end of the 1800's, and then into the modern theories as a history tour. The pulsating spheres derivation of Thomson and Bjerknes are in there too, ie models of electrons and the electric force as a standing wave structure. It is a good history discussion with equations and analogies. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 18:48:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14628; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:44:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:44:28 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:13:06 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: My FTL Challenge to Vortex Cc: Jim Ostrowski Resent-Message-ID: <"1kb532.0.Na3.7mkiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski proposes three postulates re electromagnetic radiation and speed of signal propagation: > Postulate #1. > > The retardation of accelerated charged particles results from the > collapse of one field with the advance of the other . I do not see how one can speak of "one field" and "the other" field. The electromagnetic field is ONE. At any given time it extends over some part of space and is usually evolving at some rate. > This means that precoded data from the collapsing field is available > IMMEDIATELY from the advancing one . Nothing is "immediate". All changes in physics take time. I am no expert in QED, but I think that, for example, the scattered field from an incident EM wave interacting with an electron is coupled in a small region of space-time whose extent is set by the uncertainty principle. > Postulate #2 > > Either of two tuned parabolic antennas can alter the field pattern > between them with a change in it's emmissive - absorptive > characteristics. The change in the field pattern occurrs uniformely and > time - coincidentally across the distance between them. > > > energy -> > ____ / ^ | \ ____ > I __>=(-* -- <- v *-)=<__ I > ___I_I__ \ (circulating) / __I_I__ > | | | | > | "T" | | "R" | > |________| |_______| > No, the change in the field does NOT occur uniformly nor time-coincidentally across the distance between them. This postulate is clearly wrong. > Postulate #3. > > There are no qualifications to Biot's magnetic field strength law which > depend on the frequency of AC current , length of the wire , etc . The > form of Biot's law which has not been thus modified for c information > velocity limitations and stands to this day unchallenged and unrefuted > is as follows: > > The magnitude of a magnetic field around a long ,straight wire that > carries a current i is given by [snip] Biot's law is only for DC. It is a good approximation for low enough frequency AC, but strictly speaking it is a DC law. > This magnetic field strength is uniform along the entire length of > the wire at any given instant no matter what frequency of the current > or length of wire in question. Additional comments: If you put an AC source at one end of a long, straight wire, you will find a wave propagating along its length and radiating outward from the wire. It is NOT a uniform current. It's a nonuniform EM wave guided by the wire. (Such "long wire" antennas (several wavelengths) are known by antenna engineers and were used in certain situations, especially for old "short wave" transmission.) In order to make an oscillating current remain constant along the length of the wire, a infinitude of infinitessimal sources has to be installed along the wire. Even in this case with uniform I*sin(omega*t) an EM wave still exists. It is radiated radially outward from the wire. Now, even though the current is uniform and in phase all along the wire, this does not mean that information can propagate faster than c. There is no new information in a sine wave; all the oscillators along the line can be set up in proper phase once, and if they are ideally stable, the wave persists forever. More to the point, to propagate information along the wire faster than c, one or more oscillators would have to be commanded to change its phase, frequency or amplitude. In other words, there would have to be a differntly-based faster-than-light information system in parallel with the line. This begs the question. > As far as this postulate # 3 goes , I have personally verified it by > means of experiment similar to the one described in my earlier posts > (using a long wire inductance rather than an "extended capacitor" made > out of 75 ohm coax wire). I'm sorry, I seem to have missed that post. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 19:17:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12592; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:13:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:16:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Stripping and flipping Resent-Message-ID: <"FyQ2F.0.N43._Aliq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:30 PM 12/3/97, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and >neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin >of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart. > > Now throw a beam of deuterons at an appropriate target, well below the >center of mass energy needed to split the deuterons. You will get a high >incidence of cases where the proton is absorbed by the target while the >neutron sails merrily on its way. The path taken in most of these events >is that the deuteron spontaneously (and virtually) decomposes, then the >proton is absorbed by the target, releasing enough energy to more than >bring the Heisenberg books into balance. Robert, I have a real interest in what "the deuteron falls apart" means above. Does it mean fission? It doesn't seem like the energy to flip a proton relative to its bound neutron would require anywhere near the 2.3 MeV relased upon the original D formation. Since the neutron is neutral, rapidly flipping the spin of the proton sounds trivial. Is there a spin related binding energy there? It strikes me as very strange that 10-20 KeV kinetic energy could overcome the coulomb barrier between D and a heavy element nucleus, or even Li, to a sufficient depth for a sufficient duration to permit significant proton tunneling into the secondary nucleus. Has the stripping phenomenon been fully understood with conventional theory? I am interested in finding literature relating to any of the above. Any suggestions appreciated. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 19:58:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26543; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:47:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:47:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:40:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Jim Ostrowski , John Schnurer Subject: FTL Challenge Notes, from Schnurer to Vo And a little Cherry Tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"fHkO01.0.bU6.9hliq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo. , Jim and Michael, First: I love the heck out of this kind of stuff. On to the notes ..... And the Tree! On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > Jim Ostrowski proposes three postulates re electromagnetic radiation and > speed of signal propagation: > > > Postulate #1. > > > > The retardation of accelerated charged particles results from the > > collapse of one field with the advance of the other . > > I do not see how one can speak of "one field" and "the other" field. The > electromagnetic field is ONE. At any given time it extends over some part > of space and is usually evolving at some rate. Maybe Jim is saying collapse or change in electric field, which affect magnetic field, which affects electric field .... and so on. > > > This means that precoded data from the collapsing field is available > > IMMEDIATELY from the advancing one . > No I do not know waht Jim means by 'pre coded'. Now: a] I can say I know ENCODED. b] And I can say I know a little about Bo... as in Bo Diddley ... Just before Bo's European Tour in the mid 70s he played the Elizabeth Verrick [sp?] Boxing Gymnasium in Miami, Floida. I was the head of the electronics part of the sound crew, and a 'real-true-to-life' pirate, named Brother Jim, who later played a movie pirate, was the head of the muscle part of the sound. At one point a runner came over to me, when the last of the intro bands were still playing, just before Bo. The runner told me the main road guy had a big electrical problem and pointed to the head of the whole crew, across the boxing gym ... and this is a BIG place. This guy was standing at the circuit breaker box and was HOLDING A BREAKER MANUALLY in the "ON" position. I ran over and told him he couldn't DO that! He let the breaker go, it popped over, 'right sharp' and the bass player's amplifier section died. A quick current budget analysis indicated you could have 2 out of 3 : Bass, hot dogs or pocorn, the bass, hot dog cooker and popcorn cooker being the main draws and no time to re route before the show. There were 2,000 hot dogs on ice and for months, if you went by one of the promoters' house he would ask "Ya wanna hot dog?" After the show all who were involved were able to me Bo, and he was a real nice guy. c] And I can say I know a little about physics. > Nothing is "immediate". All changes in physics take time. I am no expert in > QED, but I think that, for example, the scattered field from an incident EM > wave interacting with an electron is coupled in a small region of > space-time whose extent is set by the uncertainty principle. > > > Postulate #2 > > > > Either of two tuned parabolic antennas can alter the field pattern > > between them with a change in it's emmissive - absorptive > > characteristics. The change in the field pattern occurrs uniformely and > > time - coincidentally across the distance between them. > > > > > energy -> > > ____ / ^ | \ ____ > > I __>=(-* -- <- v *-)=<__ I > > ___I_I__ \ (circulating) / __I_I__ > > | | | | > > | "T" | | "R" | > > |________| |_______| > > As Angel [pronounced An-hel] Cosme's Grand mother would say, "Dep Dep". Angel was a librarian with the NYC library and "Dep Dep" was a universal comment ... could mean good, bad, indifferent ... I never did quite figure it out, but it works. If the two antennas are nice and "stiff", and are properly matched ... and are REAL CLOSE, as in near field close, or REALLY REALLY close, as in fraction of wavelenth then there can be great interaction. > > No, the change in the field does NOT occur uniformly nor > time-coincidentally across the distance between them. This postulate is > clearly wrong. > Agreed. > > Postulate #3. > > > > There are no qualifications to Biot's magnetic field strength law which > > depend on the frequency of AC current , length of the wire , etc . The > > form of Biot's law which has not been thus modified for c information > > velocity limitations and stands to this day unchallenged and unrefuted > > is as follows: > > > > The magnitude of a magnetic field around a long ,straight wire that > > carries a current i is given by [snip] > > Biot's law is only for DC. It is a good approximation for low enough > frequency AC, but strictly speaking it is a DC law. > > > This magnetic field strength is uniform along the entire length of > > the wire at any given instant no matter what frequency of the current > > or length of wire in question. > > Additional comments: If you put an AC source at one end of a long, > straight wire, you will find a wave propagating along its length and > radiating outward from the wire. It is NOT a uniform current. It's a > nonuniform EM wave guided by the wire. (Such "long wire" antennas (several > wavelengths) are known by antenna engineers and were used in certain > situations, especially for old "short wave" transmission.) In order to make > an oscillating current remain constant along the length of the wire, a > infinitude of infinitessimal sources has to be installed along the wire. > Even in this case with uniform I*sin(omega*t) an EM wave still exists. It > is radiated radially outward from the wire. Now, even though the current is > uniform and in phase all along the wire, this does not mean that > information can propagate faster than c. There is no new information in a > sine wave; all the oscillators along the line can be set up in proper phase > once, and if they are ideally stable, the wave persists forever. More to > the point, to propagate information along the wire faster than c, one or > more oscillators would have to be commanded to change its phase, frequency > or amplitude. In other words, there would have to be a differntly-based > faster-than-light information system in parallel with the line. This begs > the question. > > > As far as this postulate # 3 goes , I have personally verified it by means of experiment similar to the one described in my earlier posts (using a long wire inductance rather than an "extended capacitor" made out of 75 ohm coax wire). Stop the car, Bob .... er, I mean Jim. Can we get an instant replay on that? Please. AND: Back to encoding: I have several related methods which can allow me to encode, say, 20 meg cps information, analog, on a carrier, for example 500 meg cps, in the RF, in the air.... but as far as the FCC is concerned the carrier will look unmodulated on a spectrum analyser, or, if poorly executed the carrier will be spread by maybe 10 kilo cps. My "non challenge": If any Vo or Vo associate can find a legitimate buyer or licensee for this new method of RF encoding .... which I ma proud to say is ANALOG! ...and related, methods I will, as a tax sink, set up a "Vo skunk works" with 15% of the proceeds, and will tax sink 5% to the parties that make it happen. JHS > > I'm sorry, I seem to have missed that post. > > Michael J. Schaffer > General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA > Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 20:25:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00784; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:19:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:19:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980106221900.00817e90 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 22:19:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP mods Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Czjdf2.0.8C.e9miq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Take a look at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun1.html You'll see what will be used in tomorrow's run. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 21:23:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05557; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:19:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:19:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34B32BF2.7F9F keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 23:17:06 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Researcher Network List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gwfZN3.0.RM1.P1niq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Folks! I get many phone calls, letters and emails from people who complain that there is no one in their area who understands or is interested in alternative science subjects. Most envy those of us who have local friends they can personally meet or work with on a regular basis. Several months ago, it seemed like a good idea to post a list that would let people provide their email, state/country, interests and city/town. This way, if you saw someone in your area who had like interests, you could email them direct to arrange a meeting. You are invited to sign up if you wish at; http://www.keelynet.htm/network.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 23:05:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24197; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:59:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:59:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:59:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: Schaffer gav.gat.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: My FTL Challenge to Vortex In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EUURY2.0.-v5.WVoiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Michael Schaffer writes : > Jim Ostrowski proposes three postulates re electromagnetic radiation > and speed of signal propagation: >> Postulate #1. >> >> The retardation of accelerated charged particles results from the >> collapse of one field with the advance of the other . > I do not see how one can speak of "one field" and "the other" field. The > electromagnetic field is ONE. At any given time it extends over some part > of space and is usually evolving at some rate. There are two fields generally recognized as being distinct (by others than perhaps yourself) . These are (1) Electric field and (2) the magnetic field. > > This means that precoded data from the collapsing field is available > > IMMEDIATELY from the advancing one . > Nothing is "immediate". Allright . How about _concurrent_ then, or, _simultaneous_? ( Those words are a better description of what I meant) There is no "instantaneos communication" anywhere per se because individual bits take a certain amount of time to form , which time is typically dependent on the frequency of the carrier . The higher the carrier frequency the higher the baud rate. This says nothing about propagation speed which is the amount of time it takes for an entire block of bits to be transmitted from point A and arrive at point B. According to "conventional" theory this time is t=r/c , r being the spatial distance that the block of bits must traverse , c= light speed. > All changes in physics take time. See the above. > I am no expert in QED, but I think that, for example, the scattered > field from an incident EM wave interacting with an electron is coupled > in a small region of space-time whose extent is set by the uncertainty > principle. So what? Let me put it this way . If you take a capacitor and an inductor and discharge the capacitor through the inductor , the rate of discharge is dependent on the values of those two components plus the damping force or series resistance. If the values of the components are known , the RATE of discharge is also known , therefore a voltage to time plot will yield a time to voltage correspondence . At a given time the voltage will be x, for example. On the other hand if during the capacitor's discharge the damping force (series resistance) is altered , let's say increased , voltage x will appear at a different point on the discharge curve later in the cycle . This effect constitutes a signal or bit of information that can be transmitted and recieved by observing the waveform at either the capacitive or inductive end simultaneously. Information about changes in the collapsing Capacitive ( electric) field is available concurrently from the advancing inductive ( magnetic) field or vice versa. If you are going to say that this is only true for lumped circuit elements , where the light travel-time distance is small compared to the frequency of oscillation, that is what my experiments have attempted to observe and measure with either an "extended capacitor" or long wire inductance configuration. These experiments show that there is no delay where a distance of 1/4 wavelength sould produce a delay (due to alleged light speed limitations) of .25 usec , easily observable with the described equipment . Earlier by private email you attempted to explain the lack of phase difference to possible ground loops conducting th 1 mhz rf back through the generators , overcoming the scope's spec'd performance characteristic of triggering on the frequency with the highest amplitude , which would be 60 hz in the case of anything leaking back through the power wiring. You ignored my argument about how far down in db any signal leaking back through EARTH GROUND compared to the signal on the wire with a TEN VOLT PEAK AMPLITUDE , for criminy sakes. >> Postulate #2 > >> >> Either of two tuned parabolic antennas can alter the field pattern >> between them with a change in it's emmissive - absorptive >> characteristics. The change in the field pattern occurrs uniformely and >> time - coincidentally across the distance between them. >> >> > energy -> >> ____ / ^ | \ ____ >> I __>=(-* -- <- v *-)=<__ I >> ___I_I__ \ (circulating) / __I_I__ >> | | | | >> | "T" | | "R" | >> |________| |_______| >> >No, the change in the field does NOT occur uniformly nor >time-coincidentally across the distance between them. This postulate is >clearly wrong. SAYS WHO AND BASED ON WHAT EXPERIMENT ? >> Postulate #3. >> >> There are no qualifications to Biot's magnetic field strength law which >> depend on the frequency of AC current , length of the wire , etc . The >> form of Biot's law which has not been thus modified for c information >> velocity limitations and stands to this day unchallenged and unrefuted >> is as follows: >> >> The magnitude of a magnetic field around a long ,straight wire that >> carries a current i is given by [snip] > Biot's law is only for DC. It is a good approximation for low enough > frequency AC, but strictly speaking it is a DC law. SAYS WHO AND BASED ON WHAT EXPERIMENT ? I'll give you that Biot is imapplicable to transmission lines , which involves a traveling lump of energy from a source to a load , however a capacitor (extended or otherwise) or an inductor (long wire or coiled) is NOT A TRANSMISSION LINE , as transmission lines are usually defined. > This magnetic field strength is uniform along the entire length of > the wire at any given instant no matter what frequency of the current > or length of wire in question. > Additional comments: If you put an AC source at one end of a long, > straight wire, you will find a wave propagating along its length and > radiating outward from the wire. It is NOT a uniform current. It's a > nonuniform EM wave guided by the wire. (Such "long wire" antennas (several > wavelengths) are known by antenna engineers and were used in certain > situations, especially for old "short wave" transmission.) In order to make > an oscillating current remain constant along the length of the wire, a > infinitude of infinitessimal sources has to be installed along the wire. This is a load of something that smells bad. It does not appear that you have ever taken a scope ,looked at what appears on one end of an antenna wire and compared it to that which appears on the other end . "An infinitude " of " Infinitesimal sources " (my a__) . ... It's so thick around here we could shovel it. >Even in this case with uniform I*sin(omega*t) an EM wave still exists. It >is radiated radially outward from the wire. Now, even though the current is >uniform and in phase all along the wire, this does not mean that >information can propagate faster than c. And here's why folks : > There is no new information in a sine wave; Except that the value of the component at the other end which contributes to the formation of the sine wave isn't changed , when it very well might be if we are attempting to communicate this way. That's why we use something called "modulation". You perhaps have heard of modulation ? > all the oscillators along the line can be set up in proper phase > once, and if they are ideally stable, the wave persists forever. Or , as long as the Duracells , take your pick. More > to the point, to propagate information along the wire faster than c, > one or more oscillators would have to be commanded to change its > phase, frequency or amplitude. There is only one oscillator . Look at my diagram. In other words, there would have to be a > differntly-based faster-than-light information system in parallel with . the line. This begs the question. Begs what question? > > As far as this postulate # 3 goes , I have personally verified it by > > means of experiment similar to the one described in my earlier posts > > (using a long wire inductance rather than an "extended capacitor" made > > out of 75 ohm coax wire). > I'm sorry, I seem to have missed that post. Guess so. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 23:16:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25328; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:12:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:14:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Resent-Message-ID: <"HhrCe1.0.eB6.Uhoiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:44 PM 1/4/98, Horace Heffner wrote: > At $2/mol the cost of the >energy is 4.82x10^10 J/$. At 3600 J/KWh, we have 1.34x10^7 KWh/$. >Assuming a plant efficienty of 1 percent, we still produce power at >1.34x10^5 KWh/$, which compares very favorably with present rates of appx. >10HWh/$. I made a miscalculation above. "At 3600 J/KWh" should have read "At 3600 J/Wh". The corrected calculation is: The suggested reactor can not multiply neutrons, is not a breader, so, assuming NMR can eventually release 100 percent of the neutrons at a low energy cost, and each neutron is worth, say, 10 MeV on average, the main issue comes down to the economics. The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use $0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy output E=(10^6 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^10 J/mol. At $2/mol the cost of the energy is 4.82x10^10 J/$. At 3600 J/KWh, we have 1.34x10^7 Wh/$, or 13,400 KWh/$. Assuming a plant efficiency of 1 percent, we still produce power at 134 KWh/$, or 0.746 cents/KWh which compares favorably with present retail electricity costs of about 10 cents/KWh and fuel costs of approximately 2 cents/KWh. This is a much more marginal situation, but still interesting. The economics of a stripping type reactor hinges almost entirely on getting plant costs down, i.e. the cost/neutron. Also, 2 MeV output per neutron might be a more realistic target than 10 MeV per neutron, which increases the D2O fuel cost to 0.0373 cents/KWh, and the cost of wholesale electricity from a 1 percent efficient plant to 3.73 cents/KWh, excluding unitized plant cost. One possibility might be to use a nuclear plant as the source of neutrons. A nuclear plant, or other neutron source, could be augmented simply and safely by runnning a LiOD in D2O solution through the external neutron flux. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 23:30:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA30085; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:27:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:27:16 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd BLP config preview Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:26:17 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b32d8f.3626978 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S0xTK.0._L7.Ivoiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 15:04:32 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >It's all back together and baking out at 100C under high vacuum. John >Schnurer got his wish...the filament is the heavier one from a 12v auto >brake lamp...MUCH heavier than the first filament. This time there's only >0.1 gram of KNO3 in the chamber and it's in a little stainless "test tube" >that is as far as possible from the heat sources. [snip] Scott, I was under the impression that the only real reason for the inclusion of the cartridge heater was to heat the KNO3. Placing it as far as possible from the heat source seems somewhat inefficient. Am I missing something? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 6 23:35:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26803; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:30:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:30:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:32:22 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: H4 decay? Resent-Message-ID: <"RiGBY.0.jY6.wxoiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looking at we get: 1-H-4 Atomic Mass: 4.0278346 +- 0.0001176 amu Excess Mass: 25927.784 +- 109.545 keV Binding Energy: 5575.154 +- 109.545 keV Beta Decay Energy: B- 23502.873 +- 109.545 keV Spin: 2- Half life: 5.42 MEV Mode of decay: Neutron emission to H-3 Decay energy: 2.980 MeV I am unsure how to interpret this. This can't mean that if a neutron is absorbed by H3 that 2.980 MeV is generated when the H4 spits the neutron back out? This violates C of E? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 00:44:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04835; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:40:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:40:04 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:43:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP mods Resent-Message-ID: <"O_fnu3.0.QB1.Zzpiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:19 PM 1/6/98, Scott Little wrote: >Take a look at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun1.html > >You'll see what will be used in tomorrow's run. Gee, you move right along Scott! Looking at the "after" photo and your discussion it appears there is a good possibility the KNO3 may have partially reacted with the H2 and then splashed up on the W filament and oxidized it, producing the black material and stains. They seem to originate high up - about where the filament would have been. Note that the top of the ceramic post appeared to get much more blackened than further down the post. I suppose that's why you put the KNO3 down low - to get it away from the filament. I hope you have good blast protection! Have an exciting day. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 01:15:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08453; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:09:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:09:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:09:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: John Schnurer cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL Challenge Notes, from Schnurer to Vo And a little Cherry Tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ysDU62.0.l32.LPqiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Scnurer wrote: > Dear Vo. , Jim and Michael, > First: I love the heck out of this kind of stuff. Oh yeah? >On to the notes ..... > And the Tree! On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > >> I do not see how one can speak of "one field" and "the other" field. The >> electromagnetic field is ONE. At any given time it extends over some part >> of space and is usually evolving at some rate. > Maybe Jim is saying collapse or change in electric field, which > affect magnetic field, which affects electric field .... and so on. John , how is it you are able to discern my arguments when they seem so obscure to the physicist Michael? > > > This means that precoded data from the collapsing field is available > > IMMEDIATELY from the advancing one . > >No I do not know waht Jim means by 'pre coded'. Ostrowski's FTL theorem # 1: "All information transfer is the result of precoding ." This just means that both ends of a communications system must , prior to the communications attempt, have identical copies of the bitmask key. This is a communication that by definition takes place outside the communications experiment. (snip of Bo Diddley concert story - what has this got to do with the subject , John? Nice diversion though.) >Now: > a] I can say I know ENCODED. Good. c] And I can say I know a little about physics. How little? > Nothing is "immediate". All changes in physics take time. I am no expert in > QED, but I think that, for example, the scattered field from an incident EM > wave interacting with an electron is coupled in a small region of > space-time whose extent is set by the uncertainty principle. > > > Postulate #2 > > > > Either of two tuned parabolic antennas can alter the field pattern > > between them with a change in it's emmissive - absorptive > > characteristics. The change in the field pattern occurrs uniformely and > > time - coincidentally across the distance between them. > > > > > energy -> > > ____ / ^ | \ ____ > > I __>=(-* -- <- v *-)=<__ I > > ___I_I__ \ (circulating) / __I_I__ > > | | | | > > | "T" | | "R" | > > |________| |_______| > > > If the two antennas are nice and "stiff", and are properly > matched ... and are REAL CLOSE, as in near field close, or REALLY REALLY > close, as in fraction of wavelenth then there can be great interaction. The idea is that you have "T" and "R" which are both active transmitters. When T "pushes" "R" pulls and vice versa. If ,at some point "T" pushes harder , "R" need not "pull" as hard to maintain the field strength between them. This effect will be observed as a lower current draw as observed by a current probe at the ground connection to the output driver of "R" . This occurrs at the same concurrent interval that T amplitude increases. If it did not , you would have a net traveling wave , inconsistent with an in - phase relaxation on one side or the other. The observable characteristic of a traveling wave is phase displacement . If you do not disturb the phase of the signal , just it's amplitude , then by definition this amplitude change must take place uniformely across the distance between the antennas in order for energy to be conserved. Please note that this config is not the typical one used where you have an active transmitter and a passive reciever antenna . > >> No, the change in the field does NOT occur uniformly nor >> time-coincidentally across the distance between them. This postulate is >> clearly wrong. > > Agreed. Unfortunately , truth is not determined by means of the majority opinion . You are BOTH WRONG. J.O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 01:42:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11742; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:39:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:39:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34B34D2F.7FD92576 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 22:38:55 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H4 decay? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v8wcU1.0.Ot2.Orqiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Why not? What is C of E? Why does it have to be correct? Who has the right to make the law of C of E a Law of Physics? Why am I starting sentences with W? Why, The whole reason for the neutrino is to explain a violation in C of E! Horace Heffner wrote: > This can't mean that if a neutron is > absorbed by H3 that 2.980 MeV is generated when the H4 spits the neutron > back out? This violates C of E? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 04:58:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21503; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:55:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:55:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:49:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: aki ix.netcom.com: Mailbox full, Please try later Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pvhmR1.0.vF5.8jtiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: herman antioch-college.edu Subject: Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later. Dear Akira, I would please like a copy of the paper, and thank you, John Schnurer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:02:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA30097; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:59:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:59:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:53:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Horace Heffner cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ??? J/KWh ??? Re: D2O NMR Reactor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MDtxR2.0.BM7.kmtiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What is J/KWh ? Do you mean Joules [watt-seconds] divided by kilowatt hours? ?? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:06:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA31386; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:05:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:05:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:01:32 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1b6c$60f181e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"qtK1j2.0.Eg7.4stiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, A possible and convenient way to release the Potassium from KNO3 or KOH without complicating things too much, is to mix Magnesium powder with the KNO3 or KOH in the tubular "boat". The reactions should be essentially "gasless" even though rather exothermic: 1, 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 ----> 2 KOH + N2 + 4 H2O 0.010g 0.202g .112 .028 .072 2, 2 KNO3 + 9 Mg ----> 6 MgO + Mg3N2 + 2 K 0.202g 0.216g .240 .100 .078 3, 2 KOH + N2 + 4 H2O + 9 Mg--> 6 MgO +Mg3N2+2K .112 .028 .072 .216 .240 .100 The MgO is very stable and refractory. Mg3N2 against H2O releases ammonia (NH3) but isn't too likely to form; 3 H2O + Mg3N2----> 3 MgO + 2 NH3 So if you want to mix Mg3N2 with KNO3 or KOH you would still be gettering the O2 while releasing the Potassium: 2 KNO3 + 2 Mg3N2 ----> 2 K + 6 MgO + 3 N2 2 KOH + Mg3N2 ----> 2 K + 2 MgO + Mg + N2 + H2 A gas generator, but it should go. In Theory. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:27:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02824; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:23:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:23:39 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:18:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Jim Ostrowski cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: #2 FTL Ch. Notes, from Schnurer to Vo And a little Cherry Tree In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qjCS91.0._h.O7uiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More notes ... On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > John Scnurer wrote: > > > Dear Vo. , Jim and Michael, > > > First: I love the heck out of this kind of stuff. > > Oh yeah? Yeah .... waves ... particles .. 'wavicles' .... don't 'zakly' know what they are, but I love it. > > >On to the notes ..... > > > And the Tree! > > On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > > > > >> I do not see how one can speak of "one field" and "the other" field. The > >> electromagnetic field is ONE. At any given time it extends over some part > >> of space and is usually evolving at some rate. > > > Maybe Jim is saying collapse or change in electric field, which > > affect magnetic field, which affects electric field .... and so on. > > John , how is it you are able to discern my arguments when they seem so > obscure to the physicist Michael? > Just fishin' This means that precoded data from the collapsing field is available IMMEDIATELY from the advancing one . > > >No I do not know what Jim means by 'pre coded'. > > Ostrowski's FTL theorem # 1: > > "All information transfer is the result of precoding ." > > This just means that both ends of a communications system must , prior to the communications attempt, have identical copies of the bitmask key. This is a communication that by definition takes place outside the communications experiment. I missed that just a little bit. > > (snip of Bo Diddley concert story - what has this got to do with the > subject , John? Nice diversion though.) It is a story....:) > >Now: > > > a] I can say I know ENCODED. > > Good. > > > c] And I can say I know a little about physics. > > How little? Depends on how one looks at things. I sometimes tend to take an oblique view. > > > > Nothing is "immediate". All changes in physics take time. I am no expert in > > QED, but I think that, for example, the scattered field from an incident EM > > wave interacting with an electron is coupled in a small region of > > space-time whose extent is set by the uncertainty principle. > > > > > Postulate #2 > > > > > > Either of two tuned parabolic antennas can alter the field pattern between them with a change in it's emmissive - absorptive characteristics. The change in the field pattern occurrs uniformely and time - coincidentally across the distance between them. > > > > > > > energy -> > > > ____ / ^ | \ ____ > > > I __>=(-* -- <- v *-)=<__ I > > > ___I_I__ \ (circulating) / __I_I__ > > > | | | | > > > | "T" | | "R" | > > > |________| |_______| > > > > > > > If the two antennas are nice and "stiff", and are properly > > matched ... and are REAL CLOSE, as in near field close, or REALLY REALLY > > close, as in fraction of wavelenth then there can be great interaction. > > > The idea is that you have "T" and "R" which are both active transmitters. OK.... how do I do this? Are the both changing T-R ... like a see-saw ...? When T "pushes" "R" pulls and vice versa. If ,at some > point "T" pushes harder , "R" need not "pull" as hard to maintain the > field strength between them. This effect will be observed as a lower > current draw as observed by a current probe at the ground connection to > the output driver of "R" . Still a little muddy.... how about a general lay out ... like maybe with transistors or triangular amplifier symbols ? > This occurrs at the same concurrent interval that T amplitude > increases. If it did not , you would have a net traveling wave , > inconsistent with an in - phase relaxation on one side or the other. > The observable characteristic of a traveling wave is phase > displacement . If you do not disturb the phase of the signal , just > it's amplitude , then by definition this amplitude change must take > place uniformely across the distance between the antennas in order for > energy to be conserved. > Please note that this config is not the typical one used where you > have an active transmitter and a passive reciever antenna . Ok.... but can you give us a general idea of the layout? > > >> No, the change in the field does NOT occur uniformly nor > >> time-coincidentally across the distance between them. This postulate is > >> clearly wrong. > > > > > Agreed. > > Unfortunately , truth is not determined by means of the majority > opinion . You are BOTH WRONG. > > > J.O. I am not, per se, agreeing or disagreeing with any postulate. In my opinion the term "uniform" ... is huge... and maybe needs just as little definition. I am not "voting" .... just blathering along in by often half baked way. Trying to get the piece in place... for example, the diagram above showed "T" and "R" ... and I took them to be more or less standard transmitters and receivers ... but I am still a little cloudy. In good faith and the spirit of understanding, which I personally have CLEARLY not reached in this discussion...which is maybe in part my fault, John "yow! I let a bunch of the $moke out of the MRF 544 final$ and prolly shoulda tuned 'em up a little better" :) Schnurer > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:29:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25721; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:26:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:26:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:20:17 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: confused ..FTL Challenge Notes , Cherry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EFgYp.0.lH6.NAuiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > John Scnurer wrote: > > > Dear Vo. , Jim and Michael, > > > First: I love the heck out of this kind of stuff. > > Oh yeah? > Unfortunately , truth is not determined by means of the majority > opinion . You are BOTH WRONG. > ==== I AM confused! > > J.O. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:39:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27188; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:37:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:37:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980107073708.00820100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:37:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: 2nd BLP config preview In-Reply-To: <34b32d8f.3626978 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kcf3D.0.je6.mKuiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:26 AM 1/7/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Scott, I was under the impression that the only real reason for the >inclusion of the cartridge heater was to heat the KNO3. Placing it as >far as possible from the heat source seems somewhat inefficient. Am I >missing something? Good question, Robin. BLP talks about using the cartridge heater more like a calibration heater. They compare the power req'd to keep the chamber at 280C with the cartridge heater to the power req'd to keep the chamber at 280C with the tungsten filament. The KNO3 will definitely still get hot where it is...but hopefully only as hot as the average gas temperature. Due to the relatively poor thermal conductivity of this system I have a feeling that the cartridge heater runs hundreds of degress hotter than the average gas temp and that may have caused the rapid disappearance of the KNO3 in the first run. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:46:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28247; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:44:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:44:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980107074332.00824c80 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:43:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering In-Reply-To: <01bd1b6c$60f181e0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7OY8R1.0.Hv6.nQuiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:01 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >A possible and convenient way to release the >Potassium from KNO3 or KOH without.... Thanks for the interesting idea, Fred. However, I think the most prudent 1st departure from the BLP recipe is to use K metal in the chamber. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 05:51:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29001; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:41 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34B38773.A2B14B9C ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:47:31 -0600 From: John Steck Reply-To: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Please specify binary formats References: <199801061659_MC2-2E4F-33D5 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2dbzP.0.257.qUuiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > People occasionally post messages here in binary formats. Most appear to be > HTML or MIME. Graphics are posted in various formats like JPEG (JPG) or GIF > format. In some cases my utilities have failed to recognize the format. I > would appreciate it if authors could specify in the message header: "Graph in > GIF format" or "Text from HTML web page" or what-have-you. > > Robert Bass dispatches huge messages saying "This is a multi-part message in > MIME format." followed by a mass of gobbledegook. I am not sure what it is or > how to interpret it, and it takes up a great deal of space, so I forward these > messages to that great bit-bucket in the sky. I too had similar problems until I started using Netscape 4's email functionality. I haven't had a bad message since. My guess is whatever you are using isn't up to date. You should find something that can dynamically and transparently handle rich text and/or html messages. Really makes a difference. Just a suggestion. 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 06:54:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17202; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:51:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:51:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:45:52 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: John Steck cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Please specify binary formats In-Reply-To: <34B38773.A2B14B9C ecg.csg.mot.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"TdtuZ.0.cC4.yPviq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear John, I got Pine! :) On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, John Steck wrote: > Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > People occasionally post messages here in binary formats. Most appear to be > > HTML or MIME. Graphics are posted in various formats like JPEG (JPG) or GIF > > format. In some cases my utilities have failed to recognize the format. I > > would appreciate it if authors could specify in the message header: "Graph in > > GIF format" or "Text from HTML web page" or what-have-you. > > > > Robert Bass dispatches huge messages saying "This is a multi-part message in > > MIME format." followed by a mass of gobbledegook. I am not sure what it is or > > how to interpret it, and it takes up a great deal of space, so I forward these > > messages to that great bit-bucket in the sky. > > > I too had similar problems until I started using Netscape 4's email > functionality. I haven't had a bad message since. My guess is whatever > you are using isn't up to date. You should find something that can > dynamically and transparently handle rich text and/or html messages. > Really makes a difference. > > Just a suggestion. 8^) > > > -- > John E. Steck > Prototype Tooling > Motorola Inc. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 07:00:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18490; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:58:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 06:58:54 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980107145813.008d643c freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:58:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Resent-Message-ID: <"4a0sE3.0.pW4.iWviq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:01 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Fred Sparber wrote: >Scott, > >A possible and convenient way to release the >Potassium from KNO3 or KOH without complicating >things too much, is to mix Magnesium powder >with the KNO3 or KOH in the tubular "boat". > >The reactions should be essentially "gasless" >even though rather exothermic: > >1, 5 H2 + 2 KNO3 ----> 2 KOH + N2 + 4 H2O > 0.010g 0.202g .112 .028 .072 > >2, 2 KNO3 + 9 Mg ----> 6 MgO + Mg3N2 + 2 K > 0.202g 0.216g .240 .100 .078 > >3, 2 KOH + N2 + 4 H2O + 9 Mg--> 6 MgO +Mg3N2+2K > .112 .028 .072 .216 .240 .100 > >The MgO is very stable and refractory. Mg3N2 >against H2O releases ammonia (NH3) but isn't >too likely to form; >3 H2O + Mg3N2----> 3 MgO + 2 NH3 > I ran a BLP type experiment with Ni supported on amorphous silica (24% by wt) and magnesium oxide (13% by wt) at 750 deg C. in a one atmosphere of slowly flowing hydrogen. Water was produced throughout the experiment. At the end of the run the volume of catalyst recovered was 6 cc compared to 10 cc at the start and the mass recovered was 7.8 g compared to 10.63 g at the start. The water collected was 2.6 g. When I switched to a Ni catalyst supported on bentonite clay (silica/alumina), the water production was eliminated. From this behavior I inferred that MgO was being reduced. Like you I thought that MgO was stable and refractory. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 08:02:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15614; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:50:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:50:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B3A40C.CE260E0F ro.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:49:32 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199801061831_MC2-2E50-C924 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gck6N3.0.up3.jGwiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > To: Vortex > > Larry Wharton writes: > > Scott, > > Now that you are set up, by all means do a few runs but don't > expect > anything other than a null result and be prepared to cut your > losses > short. Everything about the BLP stuff is totally preposterous. . > . . > > I hope that Scott does not share Wharton's attitude. I trust he does > not. > > Anyone who thinks the experiment is "totally preposterous" or who > thinks that > an experiment should be "cut short" after only a few days of work > should > never, *ever*, consider performing the experiment in the first place. > This > attitude is poison. I do not think anyone can succeed in any job > starting off > with such a negative, grossly biased view. You could not bake a cake, > and you > sure as hell cannot do ground-breaking experimental science. > > - Jed I think it was Henry Ford who once said (paraphrased),.....Believe you can or believe you can't. Either way you're right. -- Have a Good Day, Patrick V. Reavis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 08:15:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01358; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:10:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:10:34 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:08:48 EST To: tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net, jack@mail1.centuryinter.net, vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"o46NL.0.8L.uZwiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 1/7/98 1:53:25 AM, tjs11 mail.pc.centuryinter.net wrote: <> Several papers by Majorana in the 30's or 40's address the details of the Le Sage model. I don't have the references handy. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 08:38:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22985; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:31:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:31:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B3ADB3.42BA interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:30:43 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL Challenge References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TMn5J1.0.2d5.Vtwiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > (To John Schnurer and Michael Schaffer) You are BOTH WRONG. Frank Stenger says - Hey, can't we all just get along? First, Jim O. gets mad if you throw a lot of conventional physics at his experiment. Mike Schaffer is a conventional physicist who can still take a look at an interesting odd-ball effect. John Schnurer is an artist trapped in a physicist's body (you clarify John!) who will also look hard at a weird happening. Frank Stenger is an old mech. engr. who can ask stupid electronics questions without putting my manhood at stake. To Jim O.: Jim, I an looking at your scope traces and can see that there is no phase shift in the signal from "end to end" of the big wire loop. Now, I thought that your signal generator was a sine-wave generator but it looks to me like your scope trace contains a "ton" of harmonic stuff - is this right? It seems to me that if we could understand this harmonic complexity it might help clear up a common complaint about the "old" open wire test loop. For me this was that the physical layout was really a very complex system and that I couldn't see WHAT the true transmission mode was. (It's pretty easy for me not to see something!) I wonder about (I do not preach) the "standing wave" picture on a line of 1/4 wave because I see a standing wave as not transmitting any NEW information. You know I worried about your 289 m (?) loop line having both its ends on the same workbench. Please talk about the complex waveform we see on your scope. Too bad I have plenty of space (53 acres) and almost no equipment. You have some pretty good equipment and, it seems, limited space. I know that it's not easy to have two equipped test stations 289 meters apart. I have a barn about 700 ft from my house but no power to the barn. I could "go mobile" an position a car away from my house. I could also get an almost line-of-sight run of about 800 ft across my large field. However, I still only have: 1 old single trace vac. tube scope (WW2 ?) 1 camcorder to capture trace on scope (pitiful, right!) 2 radio shack DMMs, one slightly blasted by overvolts. 1 400 watt(?), 75 kHz power oscillator. 1 microwave magnetron-in-a-pile that works 1 rf signal generator that works (I think) Probably OK for 1 MHZ 1 60 kilojoule cap. bank And that's just the "good" stuff!! Any ideas? Answers to the waveform question? Is anybody out there? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 08:44:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08127; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:38:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:38:20 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <71ea22ad.34b3adc4 aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:30:58 EST To: tessien oro.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"axm8K2.0.s-1.wzwiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/6/98 3:55:03 AM, tessien oro.net wrote: <> Strictly speaking, the ZPE is defined as the cubic freq distribution, so anything that departs from this or adds to it would not be considered. Of course, to a ZPE chauvinist like myself, everything, including the CBR, might eventually trace back to a ZPR origin. :-) <> As I've said elsewhere, ZPE are solutions of Maxwell eqns, and it has been shown by Ed Kelly in a series of papers in Am Jour Phys that Maxwell's eqns can be derived by assuming an underlying fluid medium with microvortex turbulence. This provides a connection between orthodox EM theory and "ether" models. <> Generally speaking, matter absorbs and re-emits ZPE on an equilibrium basis. In some cases of interacting bodies (Casimir plates, or gravitating bodies) correlations and cancellations can take place so as to provide a reduction in an intermediate region, and that could look like damping, but in this case energy is still not absorbed by matter. In the grav application the correlation/cancellation is similar to your filtering mechanism, and the resulting density changes can be modeled as changing permittivity, vel of light, etc. of the vacuum, and from that all the curved-space effects. <> More energetic at higher freq according to the cubic freq distribution, but don't know of any "resonances" in the ZPE. Of course there are resonances in matter's interaction with the ZPE. For example, the hydrogen's electron orbit interacts resonantly (absorbing and re-emitting) with the ZPE at ~450 Angstroms. <> The energy density of the quantum vacuum is finite, but does not have a specific value, i.e., it can change. For example, in the Casimir effect, the universe with the plates far apart has a certain vacuum energy. When the plates come together, the vacuum has decayed to a lower energy state, delivering some energy to the plates's kinetic energy of travel, finally to be converted into heat when the plates collide. At the end the vacuum energy is slightly lower, while the heat energy is slightly higher, energy being conserved in the process. If nuclear fusion forces ultimately derive from the ZPE, then I would see the short range nuclear potential energy conversion as isomorphic to the short range Casimir potential energy conversion. Hal Puthoff ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from relay04a.mail.aol.com (relay04a.mail.aol.com [172.31.160.4]) by air03a.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jan 1998 22:55:02 -0500 Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49]) by relay04a.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id WAA06456; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17332; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:51:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:50:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199801060350.TAA32649 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"JTjAW1.0.kE4.reQiq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:27:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23253; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:23:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:23:20 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <56a2d947.34b3b87c aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:16:43 EST To: hheffner corecom.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: you can't connect with me Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"vKpM8.0.Ah5.6exiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Since I had my own home page or perhaps its from vortex lurkers I got included on spam lists. I get 20 spams / day. Because of this I have many sites blocked. I must have got spam from corecom in the past. Frank PS I'll unblock corecom. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:40:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26974; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:34:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:34:51 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:37:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: D2O Stripping Reactor Economics Resent-Message-ID: <"K-K2N1.0.Ob6.woxiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A stripping reactor can not multiply neutrons, is not a breader, so, one important factor is the fuel cost cost (of D2O) per neutron. We can assume 100 percent conversion of D2 to P + n for purposes of fuel cost consideration, because the D2 not so converted can be recycled. The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use $0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy output E=(10^6 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^10 J/mol. At $2/mol the fuel cost of the energy is 4.82x10^10 J/$. At 3600 J/Wh, we have 1.34x10^7 Wh/$, or 13,400 KWh/$. Assuming a plant efficiency of 1 percent, we still produce power at 134 KWh/$, or 0.746 cents/KWh which compares favorably with present retail electricity costs of about 10 cents/KWh and fuel costs of approximately 2 cents/KWh. This is a marginal situation, but still interesting. The economics of a stripping type reactor hinges almost entirely on getting plant costs down, i.e. the plant cost/neutron, and on the amount of energy spent converting each D to p + n, which can be high if a particle accelerator type approach is used. Also, 2 MeV output per neutron might be a more realistic target than 10 MeV per neutron, which increases the D2O fuel cost to 0.0373 cents/KWh, and the cost of wholesale electricity from a 1 percent efficient plant to 3.73 cents/KWh, excluding unitized plant cost. One possibility might be to use a nuclear plant as the source of neutrons. A nuclear plant, or other neutron source, could be augmented simply and safely by runnning a LiOD in D2O solution through the external neutron flux. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:41:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25821; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:31:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:31:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:31:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FTL challenge Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lqOJq3.0.KJ6.Mlxiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear vo, John Schnurer and Frank Stenger have posted some very good questions about several aspects of my experiment and the details of how a tuned pair of parabolic transmitting antennas could be config'd to perform FTL communication. I will try to answer all of these questions in turn , unfortanately for now I have a business to run ("I/O I/O it's off to work I go") so this all will take some time . Frank observed that I get "mad" when someone throws "conventional " physics at my experiment. The fact is I have little patience with strange jargon such as "an infinitude of infinitesimal " whatever , and I am not about to let anyone get away with injecting such confusing ivory tower drivel into a discussion of BASIC principles . I can keep this at the level that anyone with a ham radio licence could figure out . In the meantime , I think I've already conveyed the basics of the idea to the group in my response to John's post. Those interested can go over that stuff and discuss it between yourselves while I'm busying myself with the daily caseload. Have a nice day vo! :-) Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:42:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26992; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:34:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:34:55 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:38:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: you can't connect with me Resent-Message-ID: <"m5GkY2.0.bb6.yoxiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:16 PM 1/7/98, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >Since I had my own home page or perhaps its from vortex lurkers I got included >on spam lists. I get 20 spams / day. Because of this I have many sites >blocked. I must have got spam from corecom in the past. > >Frank > >PS I'll unblock corecom. Thanks! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:42:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28891; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:40:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:40:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:43:57 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ??? J/KWh ??? Re: D2O NMR Reactor Resent-Message-ID: <"uy_uA3.0.937.Quxiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:53 AM 1/7/98, John Schnurer wrote: > What is J/KWh ? > > Do you mean Joules [watt-seconds] divided by kilowatt hours? > > ?? Well, I really meant to say J/Wh, but J/KWh is also a perfectly good dimensionless unit. My calculation was correct, but the comment still wrong. Is that what you are referring to? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 09:43:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27534; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:36:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:36:51 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:36:47 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: My FTL Challenge to Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"Tto-R.0.-j6.nqxiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Re Jim and my recent exchange: First, I believe Maxwell's equations are strongly supported by a huge body of experiment for non-quantum situations, so I take them as my "postulates". Jim's proposed "postulates" are less fundamental than Maxwell's equations and, at least as I read and tried to understand them, are in conflict with them. So, my objections are "theoretical" in that sense, but the theory is extremely well established. Second, experiment can always overturn even the best theory. In this case, I still have trouble understanding Jim's experiment. I am an experimentalist. I have worked with oscilloscopes and many other instruments. I once worked for the antenna division of an aerospace company. There I made many measurements---far and near field. In one case where we did not understand the behavior of a particular antenna I built a device to measure the curent distribution in the antenna conductor and the surrounding ground plane. In the end the antenna was behaving normally; it's just that we hadn't been smart enough to guess the correct qualitative solution of Maxwell's equations before the measurements (this was before computers could solve realistic antenna problems.) Many years of hard experience have taught me never to trust an instrument, oscilloscope or otherwise, nor an experiment. They often do not perform as expected. One must test the experiment setup throughly in various configurations and misconfigurations. Only when I can understand them all, especially the misconfigurations, do I begin to believe that I can obtain a confident experimental result. It's a tedious and time consuming process, but it's a necessary part of experimental science. I can see potential problems with Jim's recently-posted FTL experiment. Francis Stenger did, too. Jim O. and Jim Uban and I discussed some of these privately. I do not see that Jim O.'s experiment has yet been sufficiently tested that one can draw a confident conclusion from it. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 10:01:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00406; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:50:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:50:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34B3DC01.277F keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 11:48:17 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Repost Research Net List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F361d2.0.-5.h1yiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Up WAY too late....I put keelynet.HTM instead of keelynet.COM, sorry. corrected and reposted in this one... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Folks! I get many phone calls, letters and emails from people who complain that there is no one in their area who understands or is interested in alternative science subjects. Most envy those of us who have local friends they can personally meet or work with on a regular basis. Several months ago, it seemed like a good idea to post a list that would let people provide their email, state/country, interests and city/town. This way, if you saw someone in your area who had like interests, you could email them direct to arrange a meeting. You are invited to sign up if you wish at; http://www.keelynet.com/network.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 10:06:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04453; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:00:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:00:46 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34c205d1.173054317 mail.eisa.net.au> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:42:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"4aWCL3.0.Q51.DByiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry that I don't know the details of Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiment setup. Does the setup allow the capacitors to be charged by the atmospheric field? (In other words, are the capacitors totally shielded or not?) It is a known experimental fact that the earth's atmospheric electric field, whose average value is about 100 V/m, DOES vary regularly with a 24 hour nominal period. What little I know about this subject comes from the Feynman Lectures, vol. 2, chapter 9. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 10:51:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21199; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:46:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:46:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:40:49 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1b9b$c6183d00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GZe8t1.0.1B5.Csyiq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Edwin Strojny To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 7:36 AM Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Ed Strojny wrote: >At 06:01 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Fred Sparber wrote: >>Scott, >> >>The MgO is very stable and refractory. Mg3N2 >>against H2O releases ammonia (NH3) but isn't >>too likely to form; >>3 H2O + Mg3N2----> 3 MgO + 2 NH3 >> >I ran a BLP type experiment with Ni supported on amorphous silica (24% by >wt) and magnesium oxide (13% by wt) at 750 deg C. in a one atmosphere of >slowly flowing hydrogen. Water was produced throughout the experiment. At >the end of the run the volume of catalyst recovered was 6 cc compared to 10 >cc at the start and the mass recovered was 7.8 g compared to 10.63 g at the >start. The water collected was 2.6 g. When I switched to a Ni catalyst >supported on bentonite clay (silica/alumina), the water production was >eliminated. From this behavior I inferred that MgO was being reduced. Like >you I thought that MgO was stable and refractory. Are you sure it wasn't the other way around, Ed? The low temperature-fired Bentonite clays can release water. Reduction of MgO at 750 C (1025 K)with Hydrogen would be a Miracle! MgO + H2 + E = Mg + H20 -136 Kcal + E = -54 Kcal E = 136 Kcal + (-54 Kcal) E = +82 Kcal (endothermic) Even at 1400 K the Gibbs Free Energy is -110 Kcal and H20 is less than 45 Kcal which would make it +65 Kcal. I can't figure what happened in your experiment, Ed. :-( Regards, Frederick > >Ed Strojny > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 12:24:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18123; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:09:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:09:06 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:12:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: H4 decay? Resent-Message-ID: <"atgzx3.0._Q4.V3-iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looking at we get: 1-H-4 Atomic Mass: 4.0278346 +- 0.0001176 amu Excess Mass: 25927.784 +- 109.545 keV Binding Energy: 5575.154 +- 109.545 keV Beta Decay Energy: B- 23502.873 +- 109.545 keV Spin: 2- Half life: 5.42 MEV Mode of decay: Neutron emission to H-3 Decay energy: 2.980 MeV Ooops, I see this is a beta decay that provides the 2.980 MeV. The H4 decays to He4. I notice the CRC Handbook shows the thermal neutron cross section of H3 to be less than 6 microbarns, so you wouldn't get a lot of these. H3 is just about invisible to thermal neutrons. It is curious that the mass given above, 4.0278346 amu is greater than the sum of the H3 and n masses, yet a thermal neutron cross section for H3 + n exists. I suppose the energy is borrowed until the beta emission? AMU H3 3.016050 n 1.008665 + -------- 4.024715 H4 4.027835 - -------- -0.003120 x 931.5 MeV/amu = 2.906 MeV He4 4.002602 Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 12:39:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23957; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:26:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:26:11 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:26:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL challenge Resent-Message-ID: <"hfSVJ2.0.9s5.YJ-iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim O. wrote: >.... The fact is I have little patience with strange >jargon such as "an infinitude of infinitesimal " whatever , and I am not >about to let anyone get away with injecting such confusing ivory tower >drivel into a discussion of BASIC principles . I think see what's bothering you here. I assumed the idea of "an infinitude of infinitesimal" was familiar to you and I didn't bother to explain. It's in the same spirit as "gedanken experiment." Real systems are complicated. We usually can make progress only by first focussing on one or two main features and igoring the rest. Later on we can come back to details, after we've understood the bigger issues. Some examples familiar to you (Jim) would include: "constant voltage source," "constant current source," "voltmeter," "capacitor," "inductor," ..... These are all idealizations, not attainable in reality. But we can often understand a problem by approximating a real battery or power supply as a "constant voltage source," even when it isn't, etc. The point I was trying to make is the following: If a PASSIVE long wire is AC excited at one or both ends, then (a) EM field will be wavelike, and (b) a substantial fraction of the field will be in radiation away from the wire. These consequences of Maxwell's equations. Therefore, in order to discuss your "Biot example" wherein the AC current varies only in time but is constant at any instant along the full length of the wire (which is not possible if the wire is passive), I launched (without telling you) into a gedankin experiment in which the current is uniform. But we cannot just SAY that the current is uniform, because that would violate Maxwell's equations, and setting up a system that is fundamentally flawed will probably lead to a flawed conclusion. Therefore, I used a standard technique of "constructing" my gedanken experiment in one possible, logically consistent, idealized way, even if we couldn't build it. The gedanken experiment NEEDS active energy sources all along the wire in order to keep the current constant in space, as you wish. One would need an infinitude of infinitessimal sources to accomplish this..... BTW, capcitance and inductance are idealized concepts. Formally they are defined in the limit as frequency goes to zero, that is, at an infinitessimal frequency just above zero. The reason is that at ANY higher frequency, any real component (say capacitor) has some small admixture of the other (inductor). All this is even without considering another nonideality, resistance. Of course, this does not keep us from using the concepts of captcitance and inductance at real frequencies---the idealization is often very well justified. However, C and L are NOT FUNDAMENTAL concepts in EM; they are just useful idealizations when wave effects are sufficiently unimportant to the question being discussed. I sense in some of your writing that you rest your ideas too strongly on DC and low frequency concepts, when you are really trying to address wave issues. BTW, electric and magnetic fields are not two different fields. What is electric and what is magnetic depends on the velocity of the observer. The field is ELECTROMAGNETIC. I may sound pedantic, but that's how I get when I try to get logical. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 12:40:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25839; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:32:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:32:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:27:49 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: BLP action! More weird attitudes . . . Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801071531_MC2-2E6A-CEAA compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jLJ6b1.0.fJ6.SP-iq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Patrick Reavis paraphrases Henry Ford: Believe you can or believe you can't. Either way you're right. I agree with the general sentiments, but I think that is an overstatement. I have begun many projects believing I could, only to find out later I couldn't. An experiment or development project is a calculated risk. I think Henry Ford had that attitude because he was the Bill Gates of 1908. He minimized risk. He engineered the situation and he chose his goals carefully to be sure that he could accomplish nearly everything he set out to do. His inventions were largely derivative. He followed up on other people's ideas, systematizing and improving them. (Or plagiarized them, depending on your point of view.) His designs were stodgy and behind the times. He knew which innovations were possible because he let the competition find out what works and what doesn't. He knew he was a smart cookie with the best people in the industry working for him, millions of dollars in capital, and 80% of the market. With that much going for you, anyone would say "believe, and you can do it." That's a fine way to run a company, but you cannot solve the mysteries of anomalous energy with such methods. The Japanese NHE project managers wasted $20 million trying. Wharton seems to think that Scott Little has not calculated the risk. He says the experiment is preposterous and should be abandoned forthwith. If Little agrees with that assessment (which I doubt) he should not have started in the first place. I presume -- I hope! -- he has evaluated the BLP replications carefully and talked with the people who performed the work. I would urge him to visit them in a few weeks, after he has a feel for the experiment and he can discuss it intelligently. I do not see how anyone can succeed in CF experiments without extensive, direct, hands-on guidance from experts. Whenever I spend a few hours in the labs talking to these people and looking over their shoulders, I emerge dazzled and humbled by the vast amount of knowledge they have which I totally lack. You have to realize the depth of knowledge that some people bring to this research. Most of us shrug our shoulders and think: "What is there to know? The hydrogen goes into the metal and falls into the lattice positions in a certain order, from shallower to deeper potential wells." Then you talk to someone like Fleischmann or Mizuno, and it hits you. Mizuno once spent a solid year at Texas A&M with Bockris studying just one aspect of this problem: pitting corrosion in iron triggered by chlorine. The questions he tried to address during this year of slave labor were: is the chlorine initially adsorbed onto the surface; or absorbed into the metal; and when it is adsorbed or absorbed, how far down in the metal does it penetrate, in what stages. The answers, not surprisingly, remain unclear. Bockris and Mizuno emphatically disagree about the findings. You could devote $100 billion to researching this one tiny unexplored corner of the cold fusion problem and you would not run out of mysteries, controversy or hard work. Skeptics, particularly Dick Blue, insist that metal is metal and there is no such thing as "a special condition" of metal. They claim the OCV readings that Ed Storms sees are instrument noise; Enyo's 1980 hypothesis that microscopic spots on metal surfaces may be more densely loaded than the core of a neutron star is bunk; excess heat is a delusion; replication experiments are preposterous and should be abandoned after three days (Wharton); palladium and nickel are "the same thing" (Morrison, at ICCF3); the spillover effect does not exist (Shanahan). Obviously these people reject calorimetry and thermodynamics. They have to, or their whole belief structure will collapse. But it is amazing to see how much else they reject. They casually dismiss huge chunks of established science and engineering. I doubt Shanahan ever heard the term "spillover" before learning about Arata's paper. I am sure he has not searched the literature to find out more about it. I personally know nothing about the spillover effect. Perhaps it is controversial and untested, like Enyo's 1980 hypothesis. Or perhaps it is a standard part of advanced materials science, something that Arata and his colleagues have accepted since 1950 when he first made double structured palladium cathodes for use in plasma fusion reactors. I do not know and neither does Shanahan, but based one part of one paper he dismisses the whole idea. Morrison and many other physicists have often said that deuterons in a lattice are held farther apart than they are in ordinary heavy water, so fusion is even less likely than it would be if you squeeze ice. Just squeeze heavy water ice in a pliers and bingo, you prove cold fusion does not exist, because there are no neutrons, no x-rays, no heat. Someone wrote that again on spf the other day. It sounds like a joke or a caricature of CF claims, but these people are serious. They think it is a clever observation! They think CF scientists never realized this. They imagine Mizuno will wake up, slap his forehead and abandon eight years of hard work and thousands of experimental observations of tritium, excess heat, transmutations et cetera, all because of a gedanken experiment with pliers. I have heard Morrison talk about squeezing ice many times, always with a straight face. (He says everything with straight face. He has no humor, sarcasm, subtlety or indirection.) I am not exaggerating the extent to which these people over simplify. Such attitudes remind me of this wonderful section from the beginning of Felix Franks' little book "Polywater:" Physicists claim a much better understanding of esoteric substances like liquid helium or liquid nitrogen than they have of liquid water. . . . Although a small minority of scientists had recognized that water has several unique and mysterious features which are implicated in its role as universal solvent on this planet, the prevalent view on the state of our knowledge was different. Clearly it was very much a case of familiarity breeding contempt. The general attitude was, for me, well exemplified by a chance conversation I had with a chemistry undergraduate whom I met on a train. I was returning home after giving a lecture at one of the largest industrial research laboratories in the U.K.; the student had been there for a job interview. He asked about the subject of my lecture. When I replied that I had talked about the structure of liquid water, he looked at me as though I were a lunatic and in a condescending manner informed me that water was just H2O, and that anything one needed to know about it could be found on half a page of a standard textbook on inorganic chemistry. The clear message was that I was wasting my life. (I found out later that he did not get the job.) I have long since become reconciled to the fact that people take a complete knowledge of water so much for granted that any admission of an interest in its behavior from a physical, chemical, or biological viewpoint gives rise to astonishment or mild amusement. The fact is that water offends against nearly all the criteria of normality laid down by physicists and chemists. . . . Hydride metal surfaces are terra incognito. They too offend against nearly all the criteria of normality. Bockris, Enyo or Fleischmann could have told you that back in 1970. Incidentally, squeezing heavy water ice is reportedly a lot more interesting than the skeptics realize. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 15:49:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17596; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:42:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:42:13 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:20:06 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Please specify binary formats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"G9jd63.0.sI4.KB1jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, John Schnurer wrote: , John Steck wrote: > > > Dear John, > > I got Pine! > > :) > I've got PINE too! Hard to beat ASCII and a Physics Dictionary. In PINE, 'attached' Grapics are pre-filter'd as GIF/JPG etc. with its view and save options. :) -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 16:41:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA30170; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:35:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:35:29 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <56a2d947.34b3b87c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:35:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: you can't connect with me Resent-Message-ID: <"9KuLX2.0.6N7.Fz1jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Since I had my own home page or perhaps its from vortex lurkers I got included >on spam lists. I get 20 spams / day. Because of this I have many sites >blocked. I must have got spam from corecom in the past. do you post to any usenet groups? that is where most email spam lists are collected... blocking every domain that produces spam is not a good solution. these days, most spam get relayed by innocent third parties who have their mailhosts configured to act as relays. when you get spam from a legitimate ISP (and you have to look at the headers, not the return address), just forward it to the postmaster... of course, if it is coming directly from a spammer, than that domain should be blocked... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 17:08:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24088; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:00:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:00:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:02:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: H4 decay? Resent-Message-ID: <"TrPHJ2.0.Fu5.DK2jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Looking at we get: 1-H-4 Atomic Mass: 4.0278346 +- 0.0001176 amu Excess Mass: 25927.784 +- 109.545 keV Binding Energy: 5575.154 +- 109.545 keV Beta Decay Energy: B- 23502.873 +- 109.545 keV Spin: 2- Half life: 5.42 MEV Mode of decay: Neutron emission to H-3 Decay energy: 2.980 MeV Well I *am* confused. The above is clearly *not* a beta decay. Below is cited another table giving additional information. Once again I have to say I am unsure how to interpret this. This can't mean that if a neutron is absorbed by H3 that 2.980 MeV is generated when the H4 spits the neutron back out? This violates C of E (conservation of energy)? While it is true the cross section for thermal neutron absorbtion of H3 is small, the fact this event can happen at all seems to open up doors for free energy. Am I just missing something here? Found at: : Nuclear Wallet Card - Z( 1) Isotope[1] delta T1/2 or Z El A Jpi[2] (MeV)[3] Abundance[4] Decay Mode[5] === === ==== ======= ========= ============= ===================== 1 H 1 1/2+ 7.289 99.985% 1 2 1+ 13.136 0.015% 1 3 1/2+ 14.950 12.33 y 6 B- 4 2- 26.0 5.42 MeV N Column 3, Mass Excess, Delta Mass excesses, M-A, are given in MeV with Delta(12C)=0, by definition. For isomers the values are obtained by adding the excitation energy to the Delta(g.s.) values. Wherever the excitation energy is not known, the mass excess for the next lower isomer (or g.s.) is given. The values are given to the accuracy determined by uncertainty in Delta(g.s.) (maximum of three figures after the decimal). The uncertainty is >or=9 in the last significant figure. An appended "s" denotes that the value is obtained from systematics. Column 4, T* or Abundance The half-life and the abundance (in bold face) are shown followed by their units ("%" symbol in the case of abundance) which are followed by the uncertainty, in italics,in the last significant figure. For example, 8.1 s 10 means 8.1+-1.0 s. For some very short-lived nuclei, level widths rather than half-lives are given. There also, the width is followed by units (e.g., eV, keV, or MeV) which are followed by the uncertainty in Nitalics, if known. Column 5, Decay Mode Decay modes are given in decreasing strength from left to right, followed by the percentage branching, if known ("w" indicates a weak branch). The percentage branching is omitted where there is no competing mode of decay or no other mode has been observed. The various modes of decay are given below: B- beta- decay E epsilon (electron capture), or epsilon+beta+, or beta+ decay IT isomeric transition (through gamma or conver- sion-electron decay) n, p, A, ... neutron, proton, alpha, ... decay SF spontaneous fission 2B-, 3A, ... double beta- decay (beta-beta-), decay through emission of 3 alpha's, ... B-N, B-P, delayed n, p, alpha, ... B-A, ... emission following beta- decay EP, EA, ESF, ... delayed p, alpha, SF, ... decay following epsilon or beta+ decay Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 17:22:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26434; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:14:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:14:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:08:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge In-Reply-To: <34B3ADB3.42BA interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ydG352.0.vS6.wX2jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Frank, You CAN do a simple experiment. a] run out a giant group of coax ..... and figure how long it would take light to get from A to B. b] Set up switched phase shifter. c] Run front end into one channel of o-scope and run the other into the second channel... if you only HAVE one channel, you could probably buffer and sum. d] Launch ABRUPT phase distortion. Let me know if you need more detail, John On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > > > (To John Schnurer and Michael Schaffer) > > You are BOTH WRONG. > > Frank Stenger says - Hey, can't we all just get along? > > First, Jim O. gets mad if you throw a lot of conventional physics at his > experiment. Mike Schaffer is a conventional physicist who can still > take a look at an interesting odd-ball effect. John Schnurer is an > artist trapped in a physicist's body (you clarify John!) who will also > look hard at a weird happening. Frank Stenger is an old mech. engr. > who can ask stupid electronics questions without putting my manhood at > stake. > > To Jim O.: > > Jim, I an looking at your scope traces and can see that there is no > phase shift in the signal from "end to end" of the big wire loop. > Now, I thought that your signal generator was a sine-wave generator but > it looks to me like your scope trace contains a "ton" of harmonic stuff > - is this right? It seems to me that if we could understand this > harmonic complexity it might help clear up a common complaint about > the "old" open wire test loop. For me this was that the physical > layout was really a very complex system and that I couldn't see WHAT the > true transmission mode was. (It's pretty easy for me not to see > something!) > I wonder about (I do not preach) the "standing wave" picture on a line > of 1/4 wave because I see a standing wave as not transmitting any NEW > information. > You know I worried about your 289 m (?) loop line having both its ends > on the same workbench. > Please talk about the complex waveform we see on your scope. > > Too bad I have plenty of space (53 acres) and almost no equipment. > You have some pretty good equipment and, it seems, limited space. I > know that it's not easy to have two equipped test stations 289 meters > apart. I have a barn about 700 ft from my house but no power to the > barn. I could "go mobile" an position a car away from my house. I > could also get an almost line-of-sight run of about 800 ft across my > large field. However, I still only have: > 1 old single trace vac. tube scope (WW2 ?) > 1 camcorder to capture trace on scope (pitiful, right!) > 2 radio shack DMMs, one slightly blasted by overvolts. > 1 400 watt(?), 75 kHz power oscillator. > 1 microwave magnetron-in-a-pile that works > 1 rf signal generator that works (I think) Probably OK for 1 MHZ > 1 60 kilojoule cap. bank > And that's just the "good" stuff!! > Any ideas? Answers to the waveform question? Is anybody out there? > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 17:54:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00935; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:48:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:48:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980108014620.008c521c freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 20:46:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Resent-Message-ID: <"uvbCD2.0.GE.M13jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:40 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >Are you sure it wasn't the other way around, Ed? > >The low temperature-fired Bentonite clays can release water. > >Reduction of MgO at 750 C (1025 K)with Hydrogen >would be a Miracle! > > MgO + H2 + E = Mg + H20 >-136 Kcal + E = -54 Kcal > E = 136 Kcal + (-54 Kcal) > E = +82 Kcal (endothermic) > >Even at 1400 K the Gibbs Free Energy is >-110 Kcal and H20 is less than 45 Kcal >which would make it +65 Kcal. > >I can't figure what happened in your experiment, Ed. :-( > >Regards, Frederick >> On rereading the experimental details I must stand by my observations. There was much too much water being produced. The hydrogen exit flow stopped for 4 hours before gas started to come through. My conclusion is probably wrong. The catalyst was K2SO4 deposited on Engelhard Ni 5256 E 3/64 catalyst along with some added Pd. Engelhard Ni 5256 has amorphous silica and magnesium oxide as the support. If the sulfate was reduced I certainly would have smelled hydrogen sulfide (unless K2S or MgS was formed); I did not. I will have to rerun this experiment under more carefully controlled conditions. I'll add some HCl solution to the recovered catalyst and use my analytical tool for detecting H2S. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 18:56:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29414; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:50:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:50:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:50:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199801080250.SAA19397 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"CdoNB1.0.OB7.Dy3jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hal Puthoff wrote; >In a message dated 1/6/98 3:55:03 AM, tessien oro.net wrote: > > ><results in the CBR, in addition to all of the other wavelengths of ZPE >fluctuations (where much more energy resides). ie, the CBR is like a bunch >of ZPE energy density waves propogating across the universe.>> > >Strictly speaking, the ZPE is defined as the cubic freq distribution, so >anything that departs from this or adds to it would not be considered. Of >course, to a ZPE chauvinist like myself, everything, including the CBR, might >eventually trace back to a ZPR origin. :-) To me, the distinction is like talking about Brownian motion in ocean water vs a large wave on the surface of the ocean. That large wave is formed from the tiny motions of the molecules. Likewise, the CBR or any other waveform in the ocean of aether is the macroscopic result of the microscopic ZPE, QVF, spacetime foam, aether fluctuations, or whatever you want to call it. EM fields, nuclear fields, gamma rays, electrons, these are all different geometries of waveform, or soliton, which are macroscopic versions of the ocean wave. We just have a tough time thinking about a wave where we don't have a 'surface' like on the ocean, though we are immersed in them all the time when we use vocal speech. The problem is, we fail to consider more complicated forms of vorticle waveforms and 4D structures for the most part, and so discussion of them goes awry because most people cannot imagine what one is describing. But if you treat photonic waves as smoke ring like vortices, and electrons too but where you induced a condensation in and of the aether at the innermost convergence, then the waves are vitually the same thing but with a structural difference internally that allows them to decouple from the spacetime topology in a more complete manner. > ><related in that spacetime is like an overall topological acoustic structure >with regular nodal spacings. ZPE is the "noise" on top of that plus the >spacetime wave energy itself, combined. Sound too far out there for your >ideas?>> > >As I've said elsewhere, ZPE are solutions of Maxwell eqns, and it has been >shown by Ed Kelly in a series of papers in Am Jour Phys that Maxwell's eqns >can be derived by assuming an underlying fluid medium with microvortex >turbulence. This provides a connection between orthodox EM theory and "ether" >models. Maxwell's equations produce spherical standing waves as solutions as explored by Thomson last century. They also produce the vortex sponge structure. But I don't know if you could immerse one of their standing waves into the vortex sponge structure without a non linearity in the fluid behavior. And the minute you have that, then you are working with solitons, which is what I am doing. That said, if you don't get that fine point, they are close to the same thing in appearance. I think I have found out how to construct a proton from 9 muons in a sort of donut vortex geometry by timing the muon resonances to complex phase angles, ie 0, 90, 180, 270 degrees and then combining the solitons in a sort of spiral wrapped around the donut vortex. This leads to 18 sectors of discrete wave energy dominance external to the proton or neutron, and to a single phase angle that is dominant overall at large distances. Lockyer derived the masses of proton and neutron to 9 digits of accuracy using an 18 level integration, but has no reason for the number to be truncated at that step in the process. The geometry of the waveforms may be that reason. ><> > >Generally speaking, matter absorbs and re-emits ZPE on an equilibrium basis. Agreed. I contend that matter wave structures are underdamped oscillators driven by local spacetime oscillations, ie driven by the vortex sponge resonances. Thus, any wave energy that is coming in at other timings can be absorbed, but not re-emitted until the next emission part of the wave motion. On the next expansion cycle of the electron or proton wave, the excess is emitted in phase with local spacetime wave motions. Thus, the matter is in essence filtering out the incident frequency mismatched waves, and re-emitting them in phase and frequency match with local QVF. Thus, we are less pushed away from the earths surface than we are pushed down, just like the Casimir plates as you state below. But the wavelengths of energy we are dealing with here are far below those dealt with in the Casimir exp. >In some cases of interacting bodies (Casimir plates, or gravitating bodies) >correlations and cancellations can take place so as to provide a reduction in >an intermediate region, and that could look like damping, but in this case >energy is still not absorbed by matter. In the grav application the >correlation/cancellation is similar to your filtering mechanism, and the >resulting density changes can be modeled as changing permittivity, vel of >light, etc. of the vacuum, and from that all the curved-space effects. Permittivity and permeability were originally the density and rigidity of the aether so that you could get a sound speed. I agree that a body leads to a density gradient in the aether, but the effect is secondary to the filtering and re-emission phenomena. ie, this is a bit of a chicken and egg question, but not quite. Without that shuffling of the timing of incident wave energy, there would be no compressive thrust on the filtering matter, and thus no aether density gradient. ><zpe is likely to be more energetic? ie, frequencies at which the quantum >vacuum has excesses of energy density? Any with wavelengths around a >micrometer?>> > >More energetic at higher freq according to the cubic freq distribution, but >don't know of any "resonances" in the ZPE. Of course there are resonances in >matter's interaction with the ZPE. For example, the hydrogen's electron orbit >interacts resonantly (absorbing and re-emitting) with the ZPE at ~450 >Angstroms. I have found from Ray Tomes that there must be frequencies at which there are excesses. Further, the sun is a close neighbor that is emitting aether waves because aether is released during fusion reactions (ie mass IS conserved). I have all manner of observational evidence establishing that if one looks and understands what is going on, and I have posted that previously so won't go into it again. However, we can actually see waves created on the surface of earths oceans by the interaction of the wave energy emitted by the sun. Look up VBrand Waves and Space Shuttle and Gibraltar in a search engine and you will get some good images to look at of them. Also, Stanford has established a 28 day cycle of solar pulsation, so that gives you another coupling wave that is coupled to and driving the moons orbit, and also 160 minute oscillations that are coupled to the earths rotation and are likely responsible for driving plate tectonics due to the formation of magma plumes and to coupling to the mountain ranges like handles sticking out from the nominal sphere. > ><of the quantum vacuum is finite. If it is, then mass to energy conversions >in the center of a star come with a price, a disruption to the balance of >the energy density of the quantum vacuum!!!!!!!!!!!!>> > >The energy density of the quantum vacuum is finite, but does not have a >specific value, i.e., it can change. For example, in the Casimir effect, the >universe with the plates far apart has a certain vacuum energy. When the >plates come together, the vacuum has decayed to a lower energy state, >delivering some energy to the plates's kinetic energy of travel, finally to be >converted into heat when the plates collide. At the end the vacuum energy is >slightly lower, while the heat energy is slightly higher, energy being >conserved in the process. Put in other terms, the universe is evaporating aether from high density regions called particles into low density vapor called empty space. And so in all exothermic reactions, aether is emitted from the local environment. In the case of the plates, the amount of aether confined in the standing wave structures making up the apparatus become diminished as they approach. Caloric was a correct concept, it turns out. If nuclear fusion forces ultimately derive from the >ZPE, then I would see the short range nuclear potential energy conversion as >isomorphic to the short range Casimir potential energy conversion. Agreed. Also, what must be realized is that the fusion of matter results in an emission of the aether confined in and associated with the wave structure of the "particle". It is that emission which accelerates the wave structure away from the fusion interaction region just like a rocket ship. When you come to grasp this, counter as it is to our current, incorrect equivalency interpretation, you will then come to expect that anamolous spacetime curvatures ought to manifest exterior to stars the instant they ignite. And in each and every observational case Hubble has viewed, this is indeed the case. In fact, our very own sun, in light of todays thinking, is an impossible ball of hot gases. How could our star have a surface that is hot like it is? It should have an atmosphere that extends far out from the sun getting cooler and cooler as you gain in gravitational potential energy just like happens in our atmosphere as you climb mt. Everest. Instead, for some unknown reason (according to current thinking), the temperature climbs from 6,000 K to 6,000,000 K as you GAIN in altitude up to the corona. Then, what is worse, the solar wind ACCELERATES as you head on out of our solar system!!!!!! This is still true out beyond 50 AU. If you realize that the flux of aether produces observable spacetime curvature, then you can go looking for it all over the place, and you will find it. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 19:21:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02980; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:17:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:17:03 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:06:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1b75$74137e00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Z5zjR1.0.7k.iK4jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:19 AM Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering >At 06:01 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>A possible and convenient way to release the >>Potassium from KNO3 or KOH without.... > >Thanks for the interesting idea, Fred. However, I think the most prudent >1st departure from the BLP recipe is to use K metal in the chamber. Agreed. But, after having worked with Potassium-Sodium metals, the gettering with Magnesium powder Might be easier for day-to-day use. I find the possibility of a Potassium (Alkali)Hydride reaction 2 KH <----> 2 K + 2 H against the Tungsten filament interesting, especially the Potassium on Tungsten work function lowering effects that increase the electron emission and raise the possibility of formation of Light Lepton pairs which can form Hydrinos, with no "New Physics" required. :-) Rubidium and Cesium "Hydrides" on Tungsten Might do the same thing. Good Pictures, Scott. Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 20:12:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22028; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:08:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:08:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980107234740.00a36c08 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:47:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9aB8O2.0.4O5.A55jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well... The wavefront would propagate down the cable at speed C in the cable. A much small surface mode signal will travel down the outer sheath at speed C in air; watch for this, it can be mistaken for "faster than light" inside the cable. The termination of the cable should not effect the wavespeed; as I understand it this is part of Jims argument, that a standing wave condition produces such an effect? I tried to measure this in a low frequency (300Mhz) waveguide once. It was composed of about 10 55gal drums sanded and strapped to form a tube. The lowest order mode of the cavity was TE if I'm not mistaken; the idea being to measure the longitudinal magnetic components propagation. The wavelength at that frequency was about twice C. It's very easy to synthesis any wavelength to frequency relation you like, variations in the driver would always propagate at speed C. This I attibuted to the fact that the underlying waves were TEM type waves. I also built a ripple tank to demonstrate this principle. This I would recommend to anyone contemplating radio experimentation. At 08:08 PM 1/7/98 -0500, you wrote: > > > Dear Frank, > > You CAN do a simple experiment. > > a] run out a giant group of coax ..... and figure how long it >would take light to get from A to B. > > b] Set up switched phase shifter. > > c] Run front end into one channel of o-scope and run the other >into the second channel... if you only HAVE one channel, you could >probably buffer and sum. > > d] Launch ABRUPT phase distortion. > > Let me know if you need more detail, > > > John > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 20:28:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24248; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:21:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:21:09 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:03:59 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"wAeLT1.0.mw5.mG5jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alexander Frolov wrote: (full article at http://www.soteria.com/brown/docs/longwave.htm ) > Dokutchaev's dissertation of 1970 > described some experiments: > superconductors were placed in an > electromagnetically screened box (Faraday > cage) but some signal was detected outside > of the box when current was created in > superconductor. The main conclusion is: > longitudinal waves can be created in space > (in vacuum) by means of electric energy > and such sort waves is not screened by > metal screens. Could this be our Tampere "antigravity"? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 20:31:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24173; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:21:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:21:01 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34c205d1.173054317 mail.eisa.net.au> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:36:36 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"kvFFS3.0.Lv5.TG5jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael - > Sorry that I don't know the details of Chris > Tinsley's capacitor experiment setup. Does > the setup allow the capacitors to be > charged by the atmospheric field? (In > other words, are the capacitors totally > shielded or not?) Not completely, they're in a steel toolbox, but not all sealed up or anything. Leads are clipped very short. There's no powerline/ average-frequency EMI that really stands out, but general charge from the atmosphere probably leaks in and out. > It is a known experimental fact that the > earth's atmospheric electric field, whose > average value is about 100 V/m, DOES > vary regularly with a 24 hour nominal > period. What little I know about this > subject comes from the Feynman Lectures, > vol. 2, chapter 9. I thought the waves were tide-like, but they don't seem to fit the tides very well at all. I was generally seeing a main peak rising around noon, and a smaller mimic at around midnight. There were often other features though, and it looked for a couple of days as if the moon was dragging a bulge out of the noonish peak as it transited the sun's position at around the new moon. Others who have tried this say they see a "loose' correlation to the moon, and also the galactic center. I'm interested now in trying to get answers to the following: # Are they just waves of internal random noise (almost certainly not, but...)? # Are the slow diurnal waves 'the same as' the 1/f noise, just longer? # Do they really correlate to objects other than just the sun and the moon (and therefore not just atmospheric or rock-strain 'tides')? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 21:23:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00158; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:19:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:19:28 -0800 Message-ID: <34B461EA.7DC3 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 00:19:38 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sd6LB1.0.L2.U76jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Frank, > > You CAN do a simple experiment. (snip John's kind instructions on doing FTL experiments with my meager equipment) Thanks, John! Let me digest this info and see if I think I want to follow through. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 21:23:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01429; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:22:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:22:19 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; BLP action, Potassium Metal etc. Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:18:22 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1bf4$d6de3960$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5q-xG1.0.EM.9A6jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I don't know if you buy from ESPI. (Electronic Space Products International)1-800-638-2581 But they only sell to safety-qualified buyers. www.espi-metals.com FWIW, they carry Potassium in glass Ampoules under Argon from 1 to 50 grams,and Powder,Shot,Pellets & Ingot packaged under mineral oil. Potassium HAZARDS: "Dangerous fire risk; reacts with moisture to form potassium hydroxide and hydrogen. The reaction evolves much heat causing the potassium to melt and splatter. It also ignites the hydrogen. Burning potassium is difficult to extinguish; dry powdered soda ash or graphite or special mixtures of dry chemical is recommended. It can ignite spontaneously in moist air. Moderate explosion risk by chemical reaction. Potassium metal will form the peroxide or superoxide at room temperature even when stored under mineral oil; may explode violently when handled or cut. Oxide-coated potassium should be destroyed by burning. Store in inert atmospheres, such as argon or nitrogen, or under liquids which are oxygen-free such as toluene or kerosene, or in glass capsules which have been filled under vacuum or inert atmosphere." Sounds like KNO3 IS SAFER, :-) I prefer KNO3 or KOH with Magnesium Powder as a Getter. ESPI also carries Mg3N2 (Magnesium Nitride) powder. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 21:52:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08160; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:48:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:48:15 -0800 Message-ID: <34B467E6.2527 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 00:45:10 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge References: <3.0.32.19980107234740.00a36c08 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C7Wuu2.0.J_1.TY6jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > (snip good stuff on wave propagation) > I tried to measure this in a low frequency (300Mhz) > waveguide once. It was composed of about 10 55gal > drums sanded and strapped to form a tube. The > lowest order mode of the cavity was TE if I'm not > mistaken; the idea being to measure the longitudinal > magnetic components propagation. The wavelength at > that frequency was about twice C. > This blows my mind, Keith!! I have used welded 55 gal drums for raft floats but as a waveguide! Great! > I also built a ripple tank to demonstrate this principle. > This I would recommend to anyone contemplating radio > experimentation. > If not too complicated, Keith, just how would the ripple tank be used to, say, design a horn emitter for an S-band radar feed? Another thing I wish I knew about is if a dielectric waveguide (a round plastic water pipe) could be used for S-band transmission. I wondered if a horn emitter could direct an S-band - the 2400 MHz microwave oven rf is in the S-band, right? - radar beam through the inside of a plastic pipe. The object would be to mount a ladder of antenna-diode units along the pipe to form a voltage multiplier. Sort of a radar powered Van-de-graff generator. I wouldn't want to try this unless the pipe could confine the rf pretty well. I suppose the diodes with a fast enough response time (mechanical engineer, you know) might cost a fortune even if available. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 22:23:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13441; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:20:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:20:08 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:23:26 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Resent-Message-ID: <"bqEoj3.0.xH3.N07jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] > >Good Pictures, Scott. Yes! How do you get such good shots? Do you have a digital camera? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 23:53:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28592; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:50:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:50:07 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:46:28 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1c09$879c6920$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"nWQeG2.0.c-6.iK8jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Edwin Strojny To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:36 PM Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering >At 11:40 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote: >> >> MgO + H2 + E = Mg + H20 >>-136 Kcal + E = -54 Kcal >> E = 136 Kcal + (-54 Kcal) >There was much too much water being produced. The hydrogen exit flow >stopped for 4 hours before gas started to come through. My conclusion is >probably wrong. The catalyst was K2SO4 deposited on Engelhard Ni 5256 E 3/64 >catalyst along with some added Pd. Engelhard Ni 5256 has amorphous silica >and magnesium oxide as the support. If the sulfate was reduced I certainly >would have smelled hydrogen sulfide (unless K2S or MgS was formed); I did >not. I will have to rerun this experiment under more carefully controlled >conditions. A close call, Ed: 1, K2SO4 + 4 Ni + E = K2S + 4 NiO ~ -300 Kcal -87Kcal -204 Kcal E = ~300 + (-291 Kcal) E = ~ 9 Kcal (endothermic?) 2, H2 + 4 NiO + E = 4 Ni + 4 H2O -204 Kcal -210 Kcal E = -6 Kcal (exothermic) No possiblity for H2S at these temps? Regards, Frederick > >Ed Strojny > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 23:54:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17631; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:51:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:51:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Ron L. Brodzinski" Subject: Rubber Deep Sea Submersible for Neutrino Experiments? Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:47:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1c01$47e6e060$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"0_-fM.0.OJ4.VT7jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ron, It seems that a Rubber Submersible patterned after the Goodyear "Blimp" could be used for Neutrino detection at sea. The thing could be prepped and filled with water on the surface and submersed to any desired depth and surfaced at will for instrumentation etc. This would get around the bioluminescent background problem and with depth variation get some interesting neutrino-dark matter data. How's your budget? :-) Best Regards, Fred Sparber From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 7 23:54:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29280; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:52:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:52:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980108155132.007468a8 cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 15:51:32 +0800 To: Puthoff From: John Winterflood Subject: Hal's "Ed Kelly" reference? Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <71ea22ad.34b3adc4 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"CBAE2.0.K97.VM8jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal Puthoff wrote: >As I've said elsewhere, ZPE are solutions of Maxwell eqns, and it has been >shown by Ed Kelly in a series of papers in Am Jour Phys that Maxwell's eqns >can be derived by assuming an underlying fluid medium with microvortex >turbulence. This provides a connection between orthodox EM theory and "ether" >models. Is this "Ed Kelly" an E.M. Kelly? If so it doesn't seem that he has published in Am Jour phys recently but rather in "Galilean Electrodynamics" which is a little harder to get hold of. I wonder if you could give us a better lead to this series of papers that you mention? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 00:11:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA31697; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:10:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:10:06 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: 2nd BLP config preview Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:09:38 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b9440e.13587170 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980106150432.00a4d9a0@mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980107073708.00820100@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980107073708.00820100 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8NhX32.0.9l7.Rd8jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:37:08 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >The KNO3 will definitely still get hot where it is...but hopefully only as >hot as the average gas temperature. Due to the relatively poor thermal >conductivity of this system I have a feeling that the cartridge heater runs >hundreds of degress hotter than the average gas temp and that may have >caused the rapid disappearance of the KNO3 in the first run. [snip] So by regulating the separation, you could roughly regulate the K+ supply to the reaction? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 00:11:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA31680; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:10:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:10:02 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: D2O Stripping Reactor Economics Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:09:36 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b84128.12844259 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LwgbG.0.rk7.Pd8jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:37:57 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the >price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and >purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use >$0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular >weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy >output E=(10^6 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^10 ^^^^ Should be 10^7 for 10 MeV. >J/mol. At $2/mol the fuel cost of the energy is 4.82x10^10 J/$. At 3600 >J/Wh, we have 1.34x10^7 Wh/$, or 13,400 KWh/$. Assuming a plant efficiency >of 1 percent, we still produce power at 134 KWh/$, or 0.746 cents/KWh which which makes this .0746 cents/ kWh. >compares favorably with present retail electricity costs of about 10 >cents/KWh and fuel costs of approximately 2 cents/KWh. > [snip] >is used. Also, 2 MeV output per neutron might be a more realistic target >than 10 MeV per neutron, which increases the D2O fuel cost to 0.0373 >cents/KWh, and the cost of wholesale electricity from a 1 percent efficient >plant to 3.73 cents/KWh, excluding unitized plant cost. should thus be .373 cents/kWh (still very cheap :). > >One possibility might be to use a nuclear plant as the source of neutrons. >A nuclear plant, or other neutron source, could be augmented simply and >safely by runnning a LiOD in D2O solution through the external neutron >flux. [snip] I think nuclear plants already have very cheap fuel. That's not really what drives the cost up. High costs are due to staffing levels and radiation protection measures AFAIK. I think the hidden problem with your proposal (if there is one), is the assumption of 1% plant efficiency. Presumably this includes the stripping efficiency. However a more realistic stripping efficiency might be 1/10000? I think this is what really needs investigation more than anything else. Otherwise the low cost of nuclear reaction based fuels is well known. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 00:13:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21001; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:10:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:10:57 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:09:34 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b73656.10074278 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <71ea22ad.34b3adc4 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <71ea22ad.34b3adc4 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"86eEV.0.385.Fe8jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:30:58 EST, Puthoff wrote: [snip] >conserved in the process. If nuclear fusion forces ultimately derive from the >ZPE, then I would see the short range nuclear potential energy conversion as >isomorphic to the short range Casimir potential energy conversion. > >Hal Puthoff [snip] Hal, How about a "back of the envelope" calculation of the Casimir potential energy conversion? I.e. make some rough assumptions on size and change of distance of particles involved, then see if the resulting energy is in the ballpark. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 01:17:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25360; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:13:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:13:11 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:11:58 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ba97be.16675464 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Jyhmr2.0.8C6.bY9jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:03:59 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] > > superconductors were placed in an > > electromagnetically screened box (Faraday > > cage) but some signal was detected outside I didn't think a Faraday cage would necessarily screen against plain magnetic field changes, unless it were made of a magnetic screening material. > > of the box when current was created in > > superconductor. The main conclusion is: > > longitudinal waves can be created in space > > (in vacuum) by means of electric energy > > and such sort waves is not screened by > > metal screens. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 01:18:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25093; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:10:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:10:04 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:08:21 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b996de.16451651 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <34c205d1.173054317@mail.eisa.net.au> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XhS2N3.0._76.gV9jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:36:36 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] ># Are they just waves of internal random noise (almost certainly not, but...)? > ># Are the slow diurnal waves 'the same as' the 1/f noise, just longer? > ># Do they really correlate to objects other than just the sun and the moon >(and therefore not just atmospheric or rock-strain 'tides')? This just reminded me of an experiment I saw written up in one of the physics journals, about diurnal variations in a magnetic field, that the authors attributed to a galactic magnetic field. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 01:22:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05509; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:19:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:19:13 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:17:16 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bb98f3.16984701 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.32.19980107234740.00a36c08 cnct.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980107234740.00a36c08 cnct.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FQKwP1.0.eL1.Ge9jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:47:42 -0500, Keith Nagel wrote: [snip] >magnetic components propagation. The wavelength at >that frequency was about twice C. What does this mean? (wavelength is measured in meters, C in meters/sec.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 01:37:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00246; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:34:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:34:53 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H4 decay? Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:33:45 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bd9d71.18134039 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"a6vv1.0.m3.xs9jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:02:12 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] > Spin: 2- > Half life: 5.42 MEV > Mode of decay: Neutron emission to H-3 > Decay energy: 2.980 MeV > >Well I *am* confused. The above is clearly *not* a beta decay. Below is >cited another table giving additional information. [snip] Horace, I suspect that one may need to force the formation of 4H from 3H through bombardment with energetic neutrons. The kinetic energy of the neutron would then supply the 2.98 MeV needed to form the 4H. Note that the half life is specified as a line width, indicating very short lifetime. To me this says that it decays again as soon as it is formed. I (and I suspect you too) see this sort of info as pretty useless, however the people who compile this database apparently strive to make it as complete as possible. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 01:58:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09353; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:55:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:55:18 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34b996de.16451651 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <34c205d1.173054317 mail.eisa.net.au> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"6yN5a3.0.0I2.5AAjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > This just reminded me of an experiment I > saw written up in one of the physics > journals, about diurnal variations in a > magnetic field, that the authors attributed > to a galactic magnetic field. There's a slight daily shift in the magnetic field that's supposedly driven by the sun as it drives some sort of charged winds around in the upper atmosphere. But that shouldn't affect caps in a steel box, should it? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 02:17:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10954; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:15:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:15:22 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:18:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D2O Stripping Reactor Economics Resent-Message-ID: <"jvkm93.0.1h2.uSAjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:09 PM 1/7/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I think nuclear plants already have very cheap fuel. That's not really >what drives the cost up. High costs are due to staffing levels and >radiation protection measures AFAIK. Yes, plus deferred plant cost, and waste disposal too unless you include that in safety. > >I think the hidden problem with your proposal (if there is one), is >the assumption of 1% plant efficiency. No proposal, just kicking around ideas and numbers to see if it can go anywhere here (as usual.) The stripping effect has the advantage of being well established as (1) real and (2) potentially robust, but the disadvantages of (3) having already been examined and rejected on economic grounds and (4) still producing as much radiactivity and waste as hot fusion. (No good for amateurs like me to experiment with it.) On the other hand, if we managed to soup it up here somehow, like by pre-exciting the nucleus by NMR prior to the stripping collision or some other wild idea, then the result might be certainly *no worse than hot fusion*, which relies on neutron production and Li targeting, and may be much more feasible and timely. Also, it couldn't hurt to have some ideas in the queue in the event global warming turns out to be true and in the worst possible scenario. >Presumably this includes the >stripping efficiency. However a more realistic stripping efficiency >might be 1/10000? I think this is what really needs investigation more >than anything else. Otherwise the low cost of nuclear reaction based >fuels is well known. Yes, so true. Well, here are some wild-eyed brainstorming thoughts about that: (a) one of the problems with the beam approach is achieving high beam density. This is partially due to the need for high vacuum to prevent electron back flow and arcing, etc. One remedy for this might be to operate with a very fast positive pulse designed to cut off prior to the peaking of the electron return cascade, with a delay until the cascade is quenched. Still would have to operate with a mean free path about the distance between plates, but the distance between plates would be less than by other alternatives, so gas density could be a bit higher. (b) The stellerator, or desk top fusor, or other old reactor designs might work if scaled up massively. There has been some examination of this the last few years I think. (b) Manganse is a conductor, so might be used as a plate material, or as a central ball or mesh in a fusor, etc, and thus double as an energy producer. There may be other better targets, but hopefully nothing as awful as U238. (c) Speaking of U238, it should be possible to alternate layers of Li7 and U238, using the lithium reaction to multiply neutrons, and the U238 layers to speed up the thermal neutrons form the Li7 reactions. Could wrap the layers into a spherical shape and put a fusor or other neutron source in the middle to start the ball rolling. (c) If stripping occurs at 10k, then the number of collisions per deuteron, plus the energy per collision could be stepped up by bumping the pulse up to a large value, like 3 million volts. Might get close to 100 percent strippping. All the energy lost to Brehmstahlung etc. can get recycled, so it might be possible to operate at 0.1 percent efficiency? (d) We could look for high *proton* cross section targets, as these should tend to strip the protons from the deuterons better? (e) For that matter, there is nothing wrong with the whole deuteron being swallowed either. (Some real fusion won't hurt the numbers.) (e) Could build the reactor in the form of a kind of random cyclotron, and simply let internal drifting deuterons get accelerated in opposing directions across the D gap. There would be a multiplicity of spiral paths, many colliding head-on. Collect energy from the top and bottom plates of the D's. Would need some kind of ionizing device (e.g. laser) to start the process. Doesn't sound like it would work, but it's cool anyway. Might be just as effective to apply radio frequency HV to a quartz tube with D2 inside. (f) If H3 (tritium) really does have a non-zero thermal neutron absorbtion cross section, a sufficiently large volume of H3 will perpetuate any neutron flux within it and perpetually generate energy in violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (Not holding my breath on that one.) (g) If flipping the proton with respect to the neutron works, then sending high energy deuterons through alternating magnetic fields (a wiggler) or even alternating magnetic and electrostatic fields (a quadrupole wiggler) might do the trick. It would not take any energy out of the beam, so there still would be energy recovery, plus stripping possibilities, etc., at the target. (h) Rotate the deuteron inside the atom electrostaticaly prior to the stripping collision (as per the prior electron capture discussion.) (i) Use NMR to (j) accelerate the deuterons in clumps, small ice clusters, water droplet, or H2O+ or H3O+ for example, to increase likelyhood for D-D reaction. (k) load the target with deuterium (ala Kasagi, Kamada, etc.) (l) excite a D2O steam/water interface with HV HF, one electrode in steam, the other being the water. (m) increase cost/benefit by using windmill or off-peak or sporadic energy to store energy by exciting cobalt or other intermediate isotopes with the neutrons frm stripping. Then use Co, etc., for heat generation, or in batteries, later. (n) stripping may not have been economical when analysed before. However, if we suddenly fiind ourselves in a situation where we can not burn hydrocarbons, the sky is the limit on the fuel cost. Well that's all I can think of now. Don't think there are any real winners in the bunch, but if it gets anybody thinking it was worth the typing. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 02:26:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12036; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:21:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:21:30 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:24:48 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D2O Stripping Reactor Economics Resent-Message-ID: <"djLSa.0.vx2.eYAjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:09 PM 1/7/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:37:57 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >[snip] >>The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the >>price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and >>purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use >>$0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular >>weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy >>output E=(10^6 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^10 > ^^^^ Thanks for noticing that. My attention to detail hasn't been too good lately! I better perk up, because we're doing income taxes right now in order to get college aid applications in. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 02:28:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12316; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:23:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:23:20 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:26:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H4 decay? Resent-Message-ID: <"U4ZKc2.0.M03.NaAjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:33 AM 1/8/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I suspect that one may need to force the formation of 4H from 3H >through bombardment with energetic neutrons. >The kinetic energy of the neutron would then supply the 2.98 MeV >needed to form the 4H. >Note that the half life is specified as a line width, indicating very >short lifetime. >To me this says that it decays again as soon as it is formed. >I (and I suspect you too) see this sort of info as pretty useless, >however the people who compile this database apparently strive to make >it as complete as possible. I forgot to mention that this was taken from the *Thermal Neutron Reaction Table* at the Brookhaven site. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 03:44:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24806; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:04:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:04:25 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:52:15 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b89262.15302779 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980107074332.00824c80 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980107074332.00824c80 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4bnBn3.0.S36.sP9jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:43:32 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 06:01 AM 1/7/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>A possible and convenient way to release the >>Potassium from KNO3 or KOH without.... > >Thanks for the interesting idea, Fred. However, I think the most prudent >1st departure from the BLP recipe is to use K metal in the chamber. You seem to have missed the point that if Mills is correct, then K+ (not K) is the catalyst for the reaction. Therefore placing K metal in the chamber is such a departure from the protocol, as to almost guarantee that it will *not* work. In the original Mills scenario, the K metal that forms, is only re-ionized by K++. This isn't available until after hydrino production has started, and it don't start widout de K+. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 04:03:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27002; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:29:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:29:59 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal, pls check out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:28:48 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34bc9a22.17287331 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199801080250.SAA19397 Au.oro.net> In-Reply-To: <199801080250.SAA19397 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w58jk2.0.qb6.Lo9jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:50:33 -0800, Ross Tessien wrote: [snip] >Maxwell's equations produce spherical standing waves as solutions as >explored by Thomson last century. They also produce the vortex sponge >structure. But I don't know if you could immerse one of their standing >waves into the vortex sponge structure without a non linearity in the fluid >behavior. And the minute you have that, then you are working with solitons, >which is what I am doing. > >That said, if you don't get that fine point, they are close to the same >thing in appearance. > >I think I have found out how to construct a proton from 9 muons in a sort of >donut vortex geometry by timing the muon resonances to complex phase angles, >ie 0, 90, 180, 270 degrees and then combining the solitons in a sort of >spiral wrapped around the donut vortex. I saw a program on tornados the other day, which also demonstrated the tornado machine (that makes small model tornadoes on a desk top), and you could clearly see miniature tornados forming around the base of the central one. To be expected I suppose. The wind shear at the edge is going to "spin off" other little vortices as it goes. I was reminded of this when reading the paragraph above. > >This leads to 18 sectors of discrete wave energy dominance external to the >proton or neutron, and to a single phase angle that is dominant overall at >large distances. Lockyer derived the masses of proton and neutron to 9 >digits of accuracy using an 18 level integration, but has no reason for the >number to be truncated at that step in the process. The geometry of the >waveforms may be that reason. The problem I have with Lockyer, is the introduction of his "fudge factor" (the little extra corners he adds on to get it to come out right ). [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 04:43:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27744; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:39:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:39:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34B4BB55.258E earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 05:41:09 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, JosephHRowe@compuserve.com, rollo artvark.com, lucille@telis.org Subject: Oliver Cohen: QM, relativity, time Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ShBw12.0.Pn6.iZCjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from rgate.metricom.com (rgate.ricochet.net [204.179.143.6]) by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04883 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from well.com (mg136-252.ricochet.net [204.179.136.252]) by rgate.metricom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17310; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:12:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34B3C497.89AB4DDC well.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:08:23 -0800 From: Jack Sarfatti Reply-To: sarfatti well.com Organization: Internet Science Education Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Creon Levit CC: Leon Jaroff , Leonard Susskind , Lyle Fuller , "lwilliam stars.sfsu.edu" , "Marc.G.Millis lerc.nasa.gov" , Mark Germ , Mark Pesce , Michael Ibison , Michael J Harris , Murray Gell-Mann , "Natalya V. Vdovichenko" , Nick Frank , Nick Herbert , Paul Davies , Paul Green , "Paul J. Werbos" , Paul Zielinski , Peter Holland , Physics intuition , PJ Gaenir , "Randolf M. Pacher" , "rbrtbass pahrump.com" , Rhino6 , Rich Murray , Richard Metzger , Rita Lauria , Robert Flower , Robert Wolf , Ron Anastasia , Russell Targ , Sam Sternberg , Saul Paul Sirag , "Serge N. Konyaev" , "SKEPTICMAG aol.com" , "shoup interval.com" , Stan Klein , Stan Tenen , Stanley Jeffers , Stuart Hameroff , Stuart Kauffman , Ted Rockwell , Surjit , Tony Smith , Victor J Stenger , Walter Bowart , Wes Thomas , William Church Subject: Oliver Cohen Report Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This research was partially supported by money from ISEP. OVERVIEW OF MY RESEARCH AND SOME THOUGHTS ON CURRENT PROBLEMS IN FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICS Oliver Cohen Theoretical Physics Research Unit Birkbeck College University of London Malet Street London WC1E 7HX e-mail : o.cohen physics.bbk.ac.uk Quantum nonlocality, the strange and ubiquitous property of quantum physics whereby spatially separated objects appear to be inseparably linked, has been a recurring theme in my research. How can we make sense of this property? How can we quantify it? How can we reconcile it with relativity theory, which it seems to violate? How can we quantify it? Can we put it to practical use? If so, how? These are some of the questions that have interested me. I began my research by looking at the apparent clash between on the one hand quantum nonlocality, which suggests that a kind of instantaneous communication can take place between spatially separated objects, and on the other relativity theory, the structure of which forbids faster-than-light transmission of information so that instantaneous communication is ruled out. This clash was highlighted in recent years by a number of proofs, formulated by Lucien Hardy and others, all of which claimed to show that elements of reality in quantum mechanics cannot be Lorentz invariant. The term "elements of reality" refers to physical quantities in quantum mechanics that are known or can be predicted with certainty, whilst Lorentz invariance refers to the basic transformation rule in relativity. Violation of local Lorentz invariance implies incompatibility with relativity. So the implication of the proofs of Hardy and co. is that quantum mechanics and relativity are irreconcilable. I studied these proofs and found a loophole. The problem is that they take the basic entity in quantum mechanics to be the "wave function" - a rather abstract and elusive mathematical object which encodes all the probabilities for the results of the possible measurements on a physical system. However, in a relativistic context it is more appropriate to use wave functionals rather than wave functions. Unlike the wave function, the wave functional can have many different values at a given spacetime point depending on the observer referred to. By using wave functionals, nonlocality can be made sufficiently compatible with relativity so that proofs such as Hardy's no longer work. But the price we have to pay for this compatibility is that it becomes well-nigh impossible to construct any visualizable picture of what is going on at the quantum level. For example, the well known trajectory-based model of quantum physics introduced by David Bohm becomes untenable once the wave functional is taken on board in this way. Another way to address the conflict between quantum nonlocality and relativity is to introduce a preferred relativistic reference frame in which signals can propagate instantaneously. Normally in relativity one takes all reference frames (usually described as "Lorentz frames") as having equal status. But if we modify relativity slightly by specifying a preferred Lorentz frame, in which instantaneous transmission can take place, then quantum nonlocality can be accommodated. As long as there is only one preferred frame of this kind, then the usual causal paradoxes associated with faster-than-light transmission in a relativistic framework do not arise. (When more than one Lorentz frame allows instantaneous transmission causal paradoxes do arise because it is then possible to send signals into the past so that one might, for example, contact one's parents when they were children and advise them not to meet). The preferred frame model came under threat recently when a new kind of quantum measurement technique was discovered by Yakir Aharonov and David Albert. They showed that by using nonlocally correlated apparatuses, it is possible to perform nonlocal measurements - that is, to measure quantities relating to the combined properties of different objects in spatially-separated locations, in such a way that the individual properties associated with each object remain undefined and as such have no real identity. Aharonov and Albert's analysis suggested that the very fact that nonlocal measurements of this kind can be carried out effectively rules out the feasibility of a preferred frame model and forces us to adopt a model based on wave functionals, in order to maintain any kind of consistency with relativity. However, I re-analyzed this problem and found that the preferred frame model can in fact be retained, even when nonlocal measurements are included. I was also interested in possible practical applications of nonlocal measurements - but more of this later. The general problem of reconciling quantum nonlocality with relativity had also been looked at by Lev Vaidman. Vaidman suggested that quantum mechanical elements of reality could be made Lorentz invariant (i.e. consistent with relativity) by adopting a time-symmetric variant of ordinary quantum mechanics. Standard quantum mechanics is not time-symmetric even though the Schrodinger equation, which governs the evolution of quantum systems, is time-symmetric. This is because whenever a measurement is performed irreversible changes are brought about which violate the time-symmetry. Together with Yakir Aharonov, Vaidman introduced a fully time-symmetric model of quantum processes, which involved wave functions propagating backwards in time as well as the usual forwards-in-time evolution. Vaidman then applied this approach in a relativistic framework, and produced a model which, he claimed, was both Lorentz invariant and able to accommodate quantum nonlocality. I looked at this model in detail. It turned out that Vaidman's analysis involved an erroneous use of counterfactuals - properties that relate to what might have happened in a hypothetical situation that did not arise in reality. Unfortunately, once the errors were corrected, Vaidman's model could not be made to work. However, when applied in a non-relativistic context, the time-symmetric approach had yielded a number of other interesting and surprising results, and I looked at these as well. For example, the time-symmetric quantum theory seemed to indicate that it was possible, under certain conditions, to arrange a large number of boxes, only one of which contained a particle, in such a way that whichever box we chose to open would be certain to contain the particle! I examined the analysis which led to results such as this and found that, once again, the incorrect treatment of counterfactuals led to difficulties. Some of the surprising results had to be abandoned. However, by demonstrating an equivalence between the time-symmetric quantum theory and a new interpretation of quantum mechanics formulated by Bob Griffiths called "consistent histories", I was able to introduce criteria to identify which of the surprising results arising out of Aharonov and Vaidman's time-symmetric analysis could be retained. I went on to explore the possibility of addressing the conflict between quantum nonlocality and relativity at a deeper level by searching for the root cause of the problem rather than, as it were, just dealing with the symptoms. I discovered that there are strong arguments for interpreting Lorentz invariance as a statistical feature rather than an irreducible property of physical processes as is usually assumed. By viewing Lorentz invariance as a statistical property, relativity itself becomes a statistical theory, and this gives rise to new mechanisms by which quantum nonlocality can be accommodated. I also looked at the different roles of time in quantum mechanics and relativity. In relativity theory one uses the notion of "proper" time, which is the time as measured by a standard clock in any particular reference frame. On the other hand, there is no quantum "operator" for time, which implies that, according to quantum mechanics, time is unobservable! In quantum mechanics time is just a parameter, and it cannot be straightforwardly measured. In fact it can be shown that it is impossible to construct a completely reliable clock that obeys the laws of quantum mechanics. Since proper time is central to relativity theory, whilst the idea of a standard clock is alien to quantum mechanics, difficulties inevitably arise if one attempts to unify the different concepts of time associated with the two theories. However, quantum mechanics, and its intrinsic nonlocality, can be made more amenable to a relativistic description by introducing the idea of an internal clock associated with every particle. This idea was first put forward by Louis de Broglie in his PhD thesis of 1925. By using the internal clock idea, I found that it is possible to find connections between the "anholonomies" of quantum mechanics and relativity. An anholonomy is essentially a cyclic process that gives rise to a specific transformation once the cycle is completed, which distinguishes a system that has undergone this process from a previously identical one that has not. The central anholonomy of relativity theory is the proper time anholonomy or "twin paradox" according to which a traveller embarking on a rocket journey will, on her return, be younger than her stay-at-home twin. In quantum mechanics the fundamental anholonomies are phase transformations such as can be seen in the Aharonov-Bohm effect and the Berry phase. These phase transformations are very strange, counterintuitive effects; for example, in the Aharonov-Bohm effect particles can be visibly influenced even when confined to regions where all acknowledged physical fields are zero! By introducing the concept of age anholonomy, as a link between the proper time anholonomy and the phase anholonomies, I was able to provide a unifying framework for relativistic time and quantum mechanical time. This pointed towards a new approach to constructing Lorentz-invariant elements of reality, with spacetime loops incorporating an inherent nonlocality-in-time being central to the new model. My proposal also indicated some possible new and unforeseen physical effects, such as an unexpected reduction in radioactive decay rates in certain circumstances. Returning to more practical matters, I began to investigate whether the nonlocal measurement techniques I had looked at in my earlier work might have any useful practical applications. I was particularly interested in possible applications within the new discipline of "quantum information" that had begun to emerge in the early 1990s. Quantum information theory has three main strands - quantum computation, teleportation, and quantum cryptography. Quantum computation gains its power from quantum parallelism, a strange but universal feature of quantum mechanics which makes it possible for a single object to be in a "superposition" of many mutually exclusive states - a notorious example is the case of Schrodinger's cat, which according to quantum mechanics can be in a superposition state indicating that it is simultaneously both dead and alive! By exploiting quantum parallelism it is possible in principle to implement computational algorithms that are far more powerful than anything that can be achieved with conventional computer systems. The second strand of quantum information theory, teleportation, is an exotic process that draws on the nonlocal properties of quantum mechanics to enable a quantum state - which encodes all the information relating to a particular physical system - to be transferred to a distant location, without however requiring the system itself to be physically transported. The teleported state is transferred as if by magic to a second system, in the distant location, which has never interacted with the first one! In my own explorations into the world of quantum information theory, I first focussed on its third component, namely quantum cryptography. Quantum cryptography makes use of fundamental quantum principles, such as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, to achieve levels of security in cryptographic key distribution well beyond anything previously attainable. It works by transmitting a binary key, i.e. a string of ones and zeros, between two parties in such a way that any eavesdropper who tries to listen in on the transmission will inevitably risk detection. So-called "passive" eavesdropping is impossible in quantum cryptography. I discovered, however, that by using nonlocal measurements quantum cryptography could be made even more effective. I was able to devise a number of new quantum cryptography schemes with definite advantages, particularly with regard to eavesdropper detectability, over all previous such schemes. The nonlocal aspects of quantum mechanics that I have been discussing are related to a property called "entanglement", which is a mathematical representation of the nonseparability of quantum objects. Even if two particles are spatially separated, they can still be nonseparable in the sense that they may not have distinct individual properties, but instead have properties that can be defined only with respect to the system of both particles as a whole. The mathematical criterion of entanglement has enabled physicists to quantify the degree of nonseparability of physical systems. Entanglement comes in many different guises. Usually, physicists discuss entanglement in the context of quite primitive microscopic properties such as "spin". In quantum mechanics spin is an internal variable which, for a so-called "spin-1/2" particle such as an electron, can yield one of only two possible values when it is measured. However, the nonlocal measurement techniques I had been looking at make use of much more complex forms of entanglement, involving continuous variables that can yield any of an infinite number of possible values when measured. I wanted to deepen my understanding of this continuous-variable entanglement, and so I made a detailed analysis of it. I was able to develop a number of experimental proposals designed to demonstrate explicitly the nonlocality underlying continuous-variable entanglement. I went on to examine the links between classical information and quantum information. Classical information is measured in "bits" - that is, binary digits which can have one of two possible values, 1 and 0. Quantum information is measured in "qubits" and "ebits". A qubit corresponds to a single two-state quantum system that can exist in an infinite number of possible superposition states, whilst an ebit corresponds to a unit of entanglement. I was particularly interested in the link between bits and ebits, Some quantum cryptography schemes, including the ones that I had devised, make use of the resource of entanglement to create a shared, secret, cryptographic key consisting of a series of bits. In other words, these schemes create bits from ebits. I was interested in finding out whether the reverse process was possible - can we create ebits from bits? I discovered that there are physical systems that contain no discernible entanglement - i.e., no detectable ebits - but from which entanglement can nevertheless be released if the appropriate classical information - i.e. the appropriate series of bits - is supplied. This means that we can sometimes unlock ebits with bits; we can, in other words, unlock entanglement that may be hidden in a physical system by supplying the relevant classical information. I analyzed this process in detail, and calculated how much classical information we need to unlock each unit of entanglement. For the systems I looked at, it turned out that we need at least one bit to unlock each ebit. Currently I am interested, among other things in the ongoing development of a unifying framework for classical and quantum information. Progress in this area will, I think, require a deep understanding of entropy and its relationship to classical and quantum information. The concept of entropy was introduced in the middle part of the last century, when the science of thermodynamics (now a sub-discipline of classical physics) was being developed. Entropy can be defined precisely, in physical terms, by relating it to the amount of heat that is transferred in each stage of a process in proportion to the temperature. However, with the development of classical information theory, which began only after the Second World War, entropy has acquired a separate connotation, roughly corresponding to "lack of information". The relationship between the thermodynamic and information-theoretic notions of entropy is still not properly understood, and a deeper understanding of this relationship will, I think, be essential in order to develop quantum information theory and its integration with its classical counterpart. The problem of time in physics, which I touched upon earlier, is also I think, particularly acute and pertinent as things stand currently. The discrepancy between the quantum mechanical and relativistic notions of time may well be largely responsible for the long-running failure of physicists to quantize gravity - that is, to accommodate the force of gravity (as described by Einstein's general theory of relativity) within a quantum mechanical framework. Whilst the other three fundamental physical interactions of nature - the strong and weak nuclear, and the electromagnetic - have been quantized to the satisfaction of the mainstream physics community, successful quantization of gravity still eludes physicists. Finally I feel I should mention the recent huge growth in interest in trying to understand the phenomenon of consciousness, which has occupied a number of leading physicists as well as scientists from other disciplines. The study of consciousness has a special potential relevance to the problem of understanding time in physics. Since time is arguably the most subjective and anthropocentric of physical quantities, it is possible that consciousness research may help us to develop a deeper understanding of physical time. One possibility is that we may have to supersede our current linear intuitions about time with a more sophisticated understanding, in which both the future and the past can influence the present reality, signifying an underlying wholeness and nonseparability with respect to past, present, and future realities. Details of work referred to in this article can be found in the following research papers: "Pre- and Postselected Quantum Systems, Counterfactual Measurements, and Consistent Histories", Physical Review A 51, 4373 (1995). "Re-examining the Assumption that Elements of Reality can be Lorentz Invariant", Physical Review A 52, 76 (1995). (With B. J. Hiley). "Retrodiction in Quantum Mechanics, Preferred Lorentz Frames, and Nonlocal Measurements", Foundations of Physics 25, 1669 (1995). (With B. J. Hiley). "Elements of Reality, Lorentz Invariance, and the Product Rule", Foundations of Physics 26, 1 (1996). (With B. J. Hiley). "Quantum Cryptography using Nonlocal Measurements", Helvetica Physica Acta 70, 710 (1997). "Nonlocality of the Original Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen State", Physical Review A 56, 3484 (1997). "Unlocking Hidden Entanglement with Classical Information", to be published in Physical Review Letters (9th February, 1998). "The Original EPR State, Bell Inequalities, and Realist Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics", to be published in Proceedings of International Symposium on Causality and Locality in Modern Physics (1998). "Reply to 'Validity of the Aharonov-Bergmann-Lebowitz Rule'", to be published in Physical Review A (March 1998). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 04:57:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA30476; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:56:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 04:56:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34B4BF75.8BC earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 05:58:45 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, JosephHRowe@compuserve.com, rollo artvark.com, lucille@telis.org Subject: Puthoff: re Oliver Cohen: QM, relativity, time Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"EY1_r2.0.3S7.5qCjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26760 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:38:29 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <2600ca92.34b40d58 aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:18:47 EST To: sarfatti well.com, creon@nas.nasa.gov Cc: NEONLEO aol.com, susskind@dormouse.stanford.edu, Lfuller@istar.ca, lwilliam stars.sfsu.edu, Marc.G.Millis@lerc.nasa.gov, MGerm97572 aol.com, mpesce@netcom.com, ibison@ntr.net, mjharris atl.mindspring.com, mgm@santafe.edu, vnv@history.ihst.ru, Chalice2 aol.com, quanta@cruzio.com, pdavies@physics.adelaide.edu.au, pwg nanothinc.com, pwerbos@nsf.gov, pzielins@ix.netcom.com, pr-holland wpg.uwe.ac.uk, physics@intuition.org, palyne@zmatrix.com, ranpac vom.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, Rhino6@aol.com, rmforall earthlink.net, metzger@bway.net, rmlauria@email.unc.edu, chronos enter.net, wolfr@usfca.edu, Rjon11@aol.com, rtarg espresearch.com, samster@istar.ca, sirag@pond.net, skonyaev iphras.irex.ru, SKEPTICMAG@aol.com, shoup@interval.com, klein adage.Berkeley.EDU, meru1@well.com, stanj@yorku.ca, srh ccit.arizona.edu, stu@santafe.edu, Tedrock@cpcug.org, Surjit aol.com, tsmith@innerx.net, vjs@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu, Freetht azstarnet.com, west@sonic.net, iwar@iwar.org Subject: Re: Oliver Cohen Report Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) In a message dated 1/7/98 6:31:43 PM, sarfatti well.com forwarded Oliver Cohen's comment: <> There is a nice correlation here with physical theory that emphasizes a zero- point-energy (ZPE) basis for much of physics, as I and my colleagues have done. The correlation is that Lorentz invariance is seen as simply a correlate of the cubic-frequency ZPE distribution (the only Lorentz-invariant random distribution), and, since the cubic frequency distribution is statistical in nature, it stands as a corollary that the associated Lorentz invariance is also statistical. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 06:16:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06780; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:11:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34B4D119.228C earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 07:14:01 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, aki@ix.netcom.com Subject: send 1994 Arata text as email? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tk2X5.0.nf1.ewDjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 8, 1998 Vortex, Can someone e-mail me the text file: aratapbd.wpd that Akira Kawasaki mailed as an encoded file of the text from the 1994 Arata and Zhang paper? I don't have the decoder. My Netscape 3.0 presents his many graphs very well. Thanks, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 06:20:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28873; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:17:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:17:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980108081305.0082ce40 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:13:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Re; BLP action, Potassium Metal etc. In-Reply-To: <01bd1bf4$d6de3960$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Pon0V.0.237.s_Djq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 0:18 PM 1/7/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Scott, > >I don't know if you buy from ESPI. >(Electronic Space Products International)1-800-638-2581 > >But they only sell to safety-qualified buyers. ...hmmmm!...maybe I could trick them.... Fortunately, we've already got K metal...under oil. Horace said: >Yes! How do you get such good shots? Do you have a digital camera? No. It's a fancy point-&-shoot...a Pentax Zoom 120 (~$300). It has a unique feature among point-&-shoots: Super-Macro (fixed camera-subject distance of 0.45 meters). That's how I get the close-ups. Picture quality actually isn't all that good and I find the auto-focus making errors from time to time. I shoot a roll, take it to the nearby grocery store for fast developing, pick it up on the way home, and scan the photos with my HP 5p scanner at home. Usually I have to "restrain" the scanner to 100 dpi to keep the image size and file size down to earth. I'd like a digital camera but it'd have to be a pretty fancy one, I think. I have a Super-8 video camera that has great close-up capability. Does anybody know if a video-capture card would work worth a damn? (reply privately to save Vortex bandwidth.) Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 07:31:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22149; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:26:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:26:23 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34B4EFE0.55AFD9DE ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:25:21 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: you can't connect with me References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SFIvR1.0.zP5.T0Fjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Since I had my own home page or perhaps its from vortex lurkers I got included > >on spam lists. I get 20 spams / day. Because of this I have many sites > >blocked. I must have got spam from corecom in the past. ralph muha wrote: > do you post to any usenet groups? that is where most email spam > lists are collected... Yes and no. SPAM'ers have gotten quite clever in their collection techniques. Many now employ internet 'robots' to systematically scan every page and link of a web site for email addresses (essentially search engines work the same way, but with key words instead). The major services are typically targeted, so if you have a page on AOL or any of the free web space sites, this is most likely where your address was lifted from. SPAM'ers aren't the only clever ones though. There are server based programs now that create robot quicksand pages. Basically it is a page that has randomly generated bogus email addresses with a link to itself at the bottom of the page. Each time the page is loaded 1000 or so new bogus addresses are generated. The 'bot can't verify legitimate from fictional so typically it gets caught in an endless loop, choking the the SPAM'er with a perpetual stream of useless data. Now multiply this stream by 10, 100, 1000, 10000 independently operating robots and you begin to see how effectively this approach can cripple an organization that gathers information this way. More information on combating SPAM: Quick and easy way to lock them out of your web site without too much effort is to make your "index.html" page an unlinked text message of the actual, alternate index page name to your site (like 'index2.html', or 'start.html', or blank if you don't want visitors). No hot links, no unauthorized robot activity deeper into your site. I have found this approach stops most search engines too (and subsequent random, uninvited visitors). For example my current web site : If you rather not be so unsociable, you can keep a public area AND a somewhat private area the same way. Keep your index page as is with links to data you don't mind unrestrictedly sharing, create an alternate index page with it's own cascading links to more sensitive information. Just remember, by default, browsers will grab an 'index.html' file first. Make sure you have one in your main directory and in all sub-directories if you are trying to lock out anyone from getting a directory listing and hacking there way around your defenses. Best part is a simple bookmark to the actual 'start' pages can bypass the intended automation dead ends. Getting your site 'lost in the crowd' of accessible pages on the 'net is the easiest and simplest defense to SPAM'ers and the ever present 'nut-jobs' out there. Just some suggestions. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 08:08:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29403; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:00:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:00:34 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34B4F1A5.F48DDCD7 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:32:53 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Massive black hole pinpointed at heart of Milky Way Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7zEdM2.0.EB7.VWFjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: News item this morning: "A black hole with the mass of nearly 2.6 million Suns lies at the heart of our Milky Way galaxy with a seductive force that sends stars close to it speeding by at 600 miles per second, astronomers reported Wednesday. Elsewhere in the galaxy, the astronomers told of a kind of "Old Faithful" black hole that siphons off matter from a nearby companion star, then periodically erupts in a blast of plasma. Scientists even made an audio recording of these rhythmic eruptions." See full story: -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 08:24:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18201; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:13:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:13:30 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <55e1c438.34b4f8d4 aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:03:31 EST To: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au, Puthoff@aol.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hal's "Ed Kelly" reference? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"tEYd-2.0.AS4.ciFjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 1/8/98 7:52:36 AM, jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au wrote: <<(Puthoff says) This provides a connection between orthodox EM theory and "ether" models. Is this "Ed Kelly" an E.M. Kelly?>> Yes, E. M. Kelly. The references are: E. M. Kelly, "Maxwell's eqns as properties of the vortex sponge," Am Jour Phys, vol 31, p 785, (1963) E. M. Kelly, "Electromagnetic behavior of the vortex sponge," Am Jour Phys, vol 32, p 657, (1964) E. M. Kelly, "Vacuum electromagnetics derived exclusively from the properties of an ideal fluid," Il Nuovo Cimento, vol 32B, p 117 (1976) Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:00:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07690; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:56:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:56:41 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980108165548.008e621c freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 11:55:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Powder Gettering Resent-Message-ID: <"JNGd_1.0.2u1.7LGjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:46 AM 1/8/98 -0700, Frederick Sparber wrote: > > >A close call, Ed: > >1, K2SO4 + 4 Ni + E = K2S + 4 NiO > ~ -300 Kcal -87Kcal -204 Kcal > E = ~300 + (-291 Kcal) > E = ~ 9 Kcal (endothermic?) > >2, H2 + 4 NiO + E = 4 Ni + 4 H2O > -204 Kcal -210 Kcal > E = -6 Kcal (exothermic) > >No possiblity for H2S at these temps? > >Regards, Frederick >> >>Ed Strojny >> Treating the recovered catalyst with 20% muriatic acid gives a very faint odor of H2S. I have to conclude that this is a negative result. By the way, do you get your thermodynamic data from NIST or the JANAF tables? Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:10:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25896; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:00:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:00:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:00:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: fstenger interlaced.net cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Search Results (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VPuIH.0.XK6.xOGjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by victor1.mscomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16808 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:16:46 -0800 (PST) From: LarryAtoms Message-ID: <5bf5fbcc.34b427fb aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:12:25 EST To: jimostr ctainforms.com Subject: Search Results Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Jim, I looked through Bill Beatty's files at eskimo.com. Zero. I looked through the files at lanl.gov Here's all there was: Please acknowledge receipt of this email. :-) 1. physics/9712051 [abs, src, ps, other] : Title: On Localized "X-shaped" Superluminal Solutions to Maxwell Equations Author: Erasmo Recami Comments: LaTeX; 33 pages; this is an (amply) revised version of an article originally submitted for pub. on March 1, 1996 (nineteen ninetysix), presently in press Subj-class: Optics; Special Relativity ---------------------------------------------------------- The URL for this page is: http://xxx.lanl.gov/find/physics/1/Maxwell/0/1/1/past/1/0 ----------------------------------------------------- Links to: xxx, physics, /find, /abs, /9801, ? ----------------------------------------------------- www-admin xxx.lanl.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:10:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27375; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:08:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:08:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:08:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FTL Challenge Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6jHAU2.0.eh6.IWGjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by victor1.mscomm.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21816 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:33:00 -0800 (PST) From: LarryAtoms Message-ID: <4f0f2783.34b18631 aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:17:33 EST To: jimostr ctainforms.com Subject: Your Theory is Correct! Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) > Jim O: > My theory about this is that opens up a big can of worms about the SETI > effort that holds that communication with different stellar systems would > take decades of effort due to light speed limitations. If we can contact > the stars instantly , we might not be ready for the reply we might get in > return . You're right. Some pet theories are going to fall, a lot of egos will be bruised! Perhaps the goofs of the early 20th century will be corrected early in the 21st century. Of course knowledge is power and the status quo is opposed to radical change! Vaya con Dios! Larry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:14:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09798; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:06:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:06:56 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: Scott Little Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:01:28 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980108081305.0082ce40 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: Video Capture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"K4C3p.0.0P2.lUGjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 08-Jan-98, Scott Little wrote: >I have a Super-8 video camera that has great close-up capability. Does >anybody know if a video-capture card would work worth a damn? (reply >privately to save Vortex bandwidth.) Video really provides pretty poor resolution, but at 30 frames/sec our eye sharpens it up. Look at a paused frame of video and that is what you get. Under controlled lighting conditions and going directly from camera to computer (bypass the tape) or using a digital camera sometimes gives acceptable results. Itried going the video capture route and ended up buying a HP4c scanner that provides great results. The newest top of the line kodak digital camera does an acceptable job also but seems to me too expensive. Hope this helps. Good luck with your BLP experiment. I also have been contemplating a BLP type experiment that I have most of the hardware for: Use RF to fire a Argon+Hydrogen (90%-10% or 80%-20% at 8-10 Torr) plasma tube and then monitor the spectrum of the plasma. If the H lines go away then hydrinos may be being formed? Any thoughts appriciated. If I decide to go ahed I will ask vortex-l for input. Thanks __Ron PS I am not equipped as you are with a calorimeter. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:23:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10887; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:13:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:13:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:14:34 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Search Results (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mXo2_2.0.-f2.GbGjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:12:25 EST From: LarryAtoms To: jimostr ctainforms.com Subject: Search Results Jim, I looked through Bill Beatty's files at eskimo.com. Zero. I looked through the files at lanl.gov Here's all there was: Please acknowledge receipt of this email. :-) 1. physics/9712051 [abs, src, ps, other] : Title: On Localized "X-shaped" Superluminal Solutions to Maxwell Equations Author: Erasmo Recami Comments: LaTeX; 33 pages; this is an (amply) revised version of an article originally submitted for pub. on March 1, 1996 (nineteen ninetysix), presently in press Subj-class: Optics; Special Relativity ---------------------------------------------------------- The URL for this page is: http://xxx.lanl.gov/find/physics/1/Maxwell/0/1/1/past/1/0 ----------------------------------------------------- Links to: xxx, physics, /find, /abs, /9801, ? ----------------------------------------------------- www-admin xxx.lanl.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:49:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18184; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:41:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:41:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:41:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199801081741.JAA27179 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Massive black hole pinpointed at heart of Milky Way Resent-Message-ID: <"AfYOH2.0.zR4.D_Gjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >News item this morning: > >"A black hole with the mass of nearly 2.6 million Suns lies at the heart >of our Milky Way galaxy with a seductive force that sends stars close to >it speeding by at 600 miles per second, Thanks for the report, but remember always, black holes do not pull things in with gravity. Rather, the aether fabric of our universe is flowing in and condensing, just as it is flowing out of our sun and accelerating the solar with and our planets. The mass of the sun must be double what we currently believe, because we fail to account for this effect which distorts spacetime if you wish to think of it that way. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 09:55:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15884; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:35:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:35:48 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:30:14 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: Video Capture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"UbwX21.0.1u3.ovGjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 08-Jan-98, R. Wormus wrote: >On 08-Jan-98, Scott Little wrote: >>I have a Super-8 video camera that has great close-up capability. Does >>anybody know if a video-capture card would work worth a damn? (reply >>privately to save Vortex bandwidth.) Sorry this ended up on the list. My mistake. __Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 10:09:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25039; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:05:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:05:12 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34B51540.825F94AF ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 12:04:48 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Massive black hole pinpointed at heart of Milky Way References: <199801081741.JAA27179 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MFm6r.0.976.NLHjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > Thanks for the report, but remember always, black holes do not pull things > in with gravity. Rather, the aether fabric of our universe is flowing in > and condensing, just as it is flowing out of our sun and accelerating the > solar with and our planets. The mass of the sun must be double what we > currently believe, because we fail to account for this effect which distorts > spacetime if you wish to think of it that way. Yeah, I figured that would get your attention. 8^) IMO seems to nicely correlate to one of your postulates that a large glob of aether condense (black hole) should exist at the center of every galaxy from the convergence of resonances. Look forward to reading the book. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 10:11:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18256; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:41:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:41:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:41:24 -0800 Message-Id: <199801081741.JAA27176 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"b37k22.0._R4.D_Gjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin; >>I think I have found out how to construct a proton from 9 muons in a sort of >>donut vortex geometry by timing the muon resonances to complex phase angles, >>ie 0, 90, 180, 270 degrees and then combining the solitons in a sort of >>spiral wrapped around the donut vortex. > >I saw a program on tornados the other day, which also demonstrated the >tornado machine (that makes small model tornadoes on a desk top), and >you could clearly see miniature tornados forming around the base of >the central one. To be expected I suppose. The wind shear at the edge >is going to "spin off" other little vortices as it goes. >I was reminded of this when reading the paragraph above. That you are thinking of vortices is good, but the tornados are not even close to the geometry I am working on. That is why I am writing the book, it is too difficult to describe these things because most people cannot think in 3 or 4D and conjure up the same image one is trying to carefully describe. But if you consider a compressible medium, such as air or water (yes water is compressible, sonoluminescence compresses it to 10g/cm^2!), then you can simply consider the set of concentric spherical shell waves that would surround a pulsating sphere immersed in such a fluid. If you freeze time, and then move outward along any radial line, you go past a rise then fall then rise then fall... in density and pressure. That is the base structure I work with for electrons. So a proton is a set of 9 of those in the muon rather than electron form. The difference is that the center "hard" sphere of muon is twice the diameter of electron's. And the diameter of these spheres is at the Planck scale, of E-35 meters. Those provide a non linearity to the wave propogation and a backstop against which they can reflect, thus the wave structure around them is really a standing wave of waves converging inward, then reflecting, then diverging outward. They aren't really like tornados at all. > >> >>This leads to 18 sectors of discrete wave energy dominance external to the >>proton or neutron, and to a single phase angle that is dominant overall at >>large distances. Lockyer derived the masses of proton and neutron to 9 >>digits of accuracy using an 18 level integration, but has no reason for the >>number to be truncated at that step in the process. The geometry of the >>waveforms may be that reason. > >The problem I have with Lockyer, is the introduction of his "fudge >factor" (the little extra corners he adds on to get it to come out >right ). I understand, his composition is add hoc, I agree. But my spacetime is a quadrature structure of acoustic standing waves inside of which the electron resonances are immersed, and by which they are driven. So, like in an Escher image where you transition from checkerboard tiles at the outside of a room, and slowly squash them into diamonds such that at the center of the room you begin to move outward with a set of concentric circles that are white and black, you find that you can transition from circles, outward until the circles corrugate (Rayleigh Taylor instability in an organized fashion), and become diamonds and then the checkerboard. In any case, despite Lockyers ad hoc description, it fits my model really well. But the clincher is that when I set up an interferogram in 4D with the spherical resonances, I wind up with 18 sectors of wave energy corresponding to the inner 9 spherical resonances in either a proton or neutron donut vortex structure. Each muon contributes 2 wave sectors which converge into it at smaller, ie sub nuclear, scales. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 10:21:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08239; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:09:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:09:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980108120934.007081ec mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 12:09:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"y_oFj1.0.a02.iPHjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Data and discussion of Run 2 can be viewed at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run2.html Many interesting things happened in this run...but not the one we're all looking for. Things are obviously not perfect with this system yet. I need help deciding what to do next. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 11:11:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14163; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:55:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:55:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:55:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Immediate Interstellar Communications Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"5Gn_S.0.AT3.P4Ijq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Excerpts taken from: "Immediate Interstellar Communication" Philip B. Wright University of Winnepeg , Canada Correspondence , Speculations in Science and Technology ISSN 0155-7785 Elsevier Sequoia - Lausanne , August ,1979 Volume 2 pp: 211-213 ------------------------------------------------------------------ ...A.N. Whitehead thought that dim and fragmentary as our knowledge may be , it nevertheless touches the deepest realities , that no truth lay beyond the happy glance of speculation , that at the base of things does not lie bare , arbitrary mystery. If this statement of rationalistic faith is true , then ideas which entail a necessary ignorance are false. One example is that because of the vast reaches of space and time there could be entities in the universe with which communication would be impossible in our lifetimes. A related instance is that if the sun were to vanish we wouldn't know about it for eight minutes. Fortunately , both notions stem from John Locke's dismal epistomology ; there is every reason to believe that this way of knowing is mostly wrong , and it is time once again to change our minds. Locke's theory is familiar because all our colleges and universities are organized around it. The model case is vision in which light falls on an external object , is changed in coherence , passed through space and time to the eye , focused on the retina and changed to electrochemical energy , whereupon the mid "snaps" a picture of this energy .The properties of the external object is called "primary" , while the picture in the head is a "secondary" quality. Two connected theories usually accompany this one , a materialism to account for the "real" external object , and a blank tablet to account for the mind upon which experiences write their message. -------------------- Cracks began to appear in the edifice of scientific materialism and it's associated epistomology almost 100 years ago . Attempts to find a medium for light failed ,attempts to apply the theory to living organisms failed, attempts to apply it to society failed . Physics is now a mess , for a century helpless animals have been tortured in laboratories with no results whatsoever , while medicine has yet to disclose on cause or one cure for any disease known to man. The word "space" now means one thing in psychology , another in mathematics , and a third in physics ... --------------------- ....the theory , in it's divorce of fact from value, knowledge from wisdom , and matter from mind has done it's work . The achievements are noted , the limits disclosed. --------------------- ....The first reason for rejecting the theory is the clear contradiction between it and empiricism (we learn from experience) , for if the mind's secondary qualities are all that we experience , then the existence of the primary qualities can't be experienced . Vision depends on the world's invisibility . It's a shame to put the matter so simply , but there it is . Bishop Berkeley noticed the problem , and Leibnitz noticed it , but they stood to one side of 17th century developments and were largely ignored .... --------------------- ...Another reason for rejecting the theory's adequacy is as old as Plato , and expressed in his masterpieces the Meno , Phaedo , and Theaetetus. The basic docrine is that we never learn _from_ experience but only _with_ it . The squiggles on paper and the sqeaks of a radio signal don't have meanings in themselves , but by prior agreement can become triggers to meanings. The two telegraph operators who managed to get Tolstoy's _War and Peace_ across the Atlantic Ocean at the close of the last century at paid attention to recollected combinations of dots and dashes in order to type out certain letters. Tolstoy's passion was thus shared with the western world as his good ideas came to new readers as old friends. ------------------- Transformer secondary circuits can be keyed to transmit data to thier primaries (fig. 1) Fig. 1 energy-> _________ _________________ __________| )||( o | )||( / (~) _ )||( / |__________ /| )||( o |__(A)___ )||(____/\/\/\/\_____| <-message Since the switch position is detected by the series ammeter it follows that energy and message directions are independent. Tuned parabolic antennas can alter transmitter field patterns in the same way (fig 2.) energy -> ____ / \ ____ I __>=(-* *-)=<__ I ___I_I__ \ / __I_I__ | | | | | "T" | | "R" | |________| <-message |_______| The retardation of accelerated charged particles results from the collapse of one field with the advance of the other (fig.3 ). Fig. 3 /| out < | \| ( ( ( ) ) ) ______ \ / \/ in However, this means that precoded data from the collapsing field is available immediately from the advancing one . ------------------------ end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 11:16:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02957; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:57:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:57:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:57:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FW7EG3.0.tj._5Ijq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Erwin Schroedinger (1887-1961) believed that the experimental verification of the wave nature of the electron ,was in fact a more fundamental expression of the electromagnetic variable than normally appears in Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism. These are the charge and current density field variables . Maxwell's equations do not explicitly predict the wave nature of a "matter field" (postulated by Descartes, which suggests that the `things' composing the material universe are modes of a continuous field , distinguishable as people,planets ,rocks and galaxies as are vortices in a turbulent fluid). On the other hand , this wave nature of the matter field is implicit in the source terms that predict the electric and magnetic fields of force that a radiating (emitting) mass exerts upon another (absorbing) mass. Planck had earlier discovered the discontinuity of the energy exchanged when "light" (various incoherent frequencies of EM radiation) is transferred between interacting atoms of matter. Schrodinger's contribution to the overall view was that the energy values could be described as continuous , and not discrete , when a RESONANT (coherent, single frequency) condition was met. In this view then ,it is the energy and frequency TRANSFER BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL "ATOMS" that is discrete, and not the energy values themselves. Schrodinger's arguments can be summed up as follows: If v(e) is the frequency component of an electric charge distribution at some initial time, and if v(e)' is it's frequency component after the charge distribution has transferred this frequency to some other mass, and if the corresponding frequency components of the absorbing mass are v(a)' (after absorption) and v(a) (before absorption), then the rule that relates the frequency transfer between coupled emitting and absorbing resonating elements is: eq.2 v(e) - v(e)' = v(a)' - v(a) Note that the frequencies referred to are not associated with any single particle of a system. They are rather the normal modes of oscillation of a system taken as a whole. For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum "jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the relation having to do with `energy conservation': eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) The point here is that one need not postulate a fundamental atomistic model for charged matter in order to formulate a complete theory of the interaction of resonant (mutually coupled) systems.In fact, using Schrodinger's model , one can reduce any material element to it's predetermined properties of resistance , capacitance and inductance per unit of mass to determine it's normal modes of electrical vibration most conducive to energy transfer. Keeping in mind the contributions of Schroedinger as described above to the conservation of energy considerations that must be ascribed to a resonant system of interaction between emitter and absorber , we can argue that in the Maxwellian view that the names "emitter" and "absorber" must be interchanghable according to whether one is deriving the retarded or advanced solutions. There is a symmetry implied in applying both the retarded and advanced solutions to our resonant components (an inductor and a capacitor) which are electrically adjacent but may contain energy modulating elements (such as variable resistors) situated at long distances from each other. The symmetry is this: That which is considered to be an absorber when applying the advanced solutions must SIMULTANEOUSLY be considered an emitter when applying the retarded solutions . It is this simultanaeity that results in the notion of an concurrent transfer of information about energy levels from one element of a resonant circuit to another. The energy circulates in such a system in a continuous oscillation that describes the system's ratio of energy circulating to energy used by a "load" or resistance placed in series with either one of its inductive or capacitive elements. end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 11:51:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13759; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:36:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:36:51 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34ba97be.16675464 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:37:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"jGE_u.0.sM3.HhIjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > I didn't think a Faraday cage would > necessarily screen against plain magnetic > field changes, unless it were made of a > magnetic screening material. Right. NASA says they had some effect too until they put a half inch steel plate over it, then it went away. As I recall the Tampere experiment had a thin sheet of plastic over it. Of course this doesn't cover all the aspects of the Tampere story, like the very large "column" ovre the SC. It's suspicious though. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 12:10:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19858; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:00:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:00:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:01:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: FTL solutions to the Maxwell Equations Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Lux2r2.0.6s4.j1Jjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Physics, abstract physics/9712051 From: Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:42:56 GMT (27kb) On Localized "X-shaped" Superluminal Solutions to Maxwell Equations Author: Erasmo Recami Comments: LaTeX; 33 pages; this is an (amply) revised version of an article originally submitted for pub. on March 1, 1996 (nineteen ninetysix), presently in press Subj-class: Optics; Special Relativity 2. physics/9 In this paper we extend for the case of Maxwell equations the "X-shaped" solutions previously found in the case of scalar (e.g., acoustic) wave equations. Such solutions are localized in theory, i.e., diffraction-free and particle-like (wavelets), in that they maintain their shape as they propagate. In the electromagnetic case they are particularly interesting, since they are expected to be Superluminal. We address also the problem of their practical, approximate production by finite (dynamic) radiators. Finally, we discuss the appearance of the X-shaped solutions from the purely geometric point of view of the Special Relativity theory. [PACS nos.: 03.50.De; 1.20.Jb; 03.30.+p; 03.40.Kf; 14.80.-j. Keywords: X-shaped waves; localized solutions to Maxwell equations; Superluminal waves; Bessel beams; Limited-dispersion beams; electromagnetic wavelets; Special Relativity; Extended Relativity]. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 12:12:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20156; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:02:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:02:05 -0800 Message-ID: <34B54AEA.506B bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 13:53:46 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: D2O Stripping Reactor Economics References: <34b84128.12844259@mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YBRLQ3.0.qw4.w2Jjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: [snip] > I think nuclear plants already have very cheap fuel. That's not really > what drives the cost up. High costs are due to staffing levels and > radiation protection measures AFAIK. [snip] Almost 40% of the cost of power at your home meter is in the distribution system. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 12:28:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25150; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:21:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:21:15 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:21:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199801082021.MAA10513 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Massive black hole pinpointed at heart of Milky Way Resent-Message-ID: <"tIY-H.0.f86.uKJjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Yeah, I figured that would get your attention. 8^) You bet. Have you seen the butterfly nebula, Hubble photo? This is a beautiful image of what happens when an old red giant that has been dormant (ie, red giants have a huge fog bank around them precisely because the aether wind has died out subsequent to H combustion running out. As the H fusion in the core slows down, the radius at which the aether wind can blow loosely gravitationally bound atoms away increases, and so you get a surrounding shroud of gas, just as we should expect for our sun. But our sun is burning and the aether wind is blowing away the overlying particles in the solar wind. So counter to what physicists think, red giants don't form because the hydrogen shell burning casts off the outer layers of the star. Rather, red giants form because the aether wind does NOT, blow away those outer loosely bound layers.) Anyway, after the red giant cooling phase, the helium core ignites and the aether wind stars up again. A dramatic example of this is the butterfly nebula, though the helix, cats eye, etc etc are all different versions of a similar process. The difference in shape comes from a number of factors, the major two being orientation angle and mass of the star. The greater the mass, the greater the wind that is created on second ignition after cooling. The planetary nebulae are all of the red giant overlying fog bank blown out away from the central star with high surface gravity (note, for the solar wind, it appears that the aether wind dictates the equilibrium surface gravity and therefore the diameter of the star. For our sun, the surface gravity is 600 km/s and the solar wind is 400 km/s at equatorial regions (the path of most resistance to aether flow) and 800 km/s at the polar regions (the paths of least resistance to aether flow). The surface gravity is right in between those values, and I have been contemplating how to calculate the area of wind at velocity A times that mass flow rate, and seeing if it equals the area of wind at velocity B times that mass flow rate. you can think, loosely, of the poles as being like volcanos spewing a greater percentage of the solar aether per unit area than the equator. PS, check into the butterfly pattern for the solar sun spot cycle, guess where it begins? Up near the path of least resistance, by the poles at high latitudes, and then it migrates down to the equator as the sun fluidizes to a greater degree on its 11 year solar cycle of increasing and decreasing combustion inside. The change in aether flow alters the density of particles globally, because in essence, you have a greater amount of mass flow of space flowing out of the sun. > >IMO seems to nicely correlate to one of your postulates that a large >glob of aether condense (black hole) should exist at the center of every >galaxy from the convergence of resonances. Yes. Though keep in mind that for a black hole, the flow of the aether becomes important. Both waves (normal gravity for bodies like the earth and sun), and flow (for bodies either absorbing or emitting aether (like BH's and stars respectively), curve spacetime. At the core of a BH, the aether flow rams into itself causing a spherical hydraulic jump sort of like water spilling off a dam spillway and running into the slower moving water at the bottom. The water can jump up in elevation because there is somewhere to go, the aether cannot because you are dealing with a spherical convergence. So instead, the density and pressure jump up. But they do so to such an immense degree, that they crush the aether into a more dense state sort of like a super critical fluid in thermodynamics, or like a condensate such as fog droplets and liquid water as compared to water vapor. We could have an interesting and intense linear jet shooting out into millions of light years into space from the MW BH if it ever breaches confinement, no, when it breaches confinement. This is the galactic procedure for damping out rotational momentum and allowing the galaxy to coelesce. See radio images of Centaurus A to see the jets shooting out and deep field views to see that the stars of the galaxy have been shot out along with that emission of aether, and ergo spacetime, along the axis. > >Look forward to reading the book. About 30 rough draft images of stellar evolution, nuclear interactions, the big bang, and BH's now completed. We are cranking them out as rough drafts and may put those up on the net in a month or so. Completion est. for next summer, then it is off to publisher. May try to publish a paper prior to that just to establish the notion of conservation of aether as mine. That is the one and only thing I can say that is truly at the foundation of all of the concepts. That and the notion that there exist in nature, no attractive forces (intrinsically). So you must work with acoustic wave interactions rather than "force fields", which are simply an invention to avoid the detail of the quadrature wave structure of spacetime itself. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 13:06:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02582; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:46:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:46:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B56527.56C7 bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 15:45:43 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: FTL Communications Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"agHSx1.0.Ee.LiJjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts! I was gonna stay outta this one; but. . . I have in my hands an article published in the August 1991 edition of "Microwaves & RF" by T. Koryu Ishii, professor, and George C. Giakos, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Marquette University, Milwaukee, WI, 53233; 414/288-6998. It's entitled, "Transmit Radio Messages Faster Than Light." Abstract: Radio-wave propagation speed must be increased in order to reduce time delay in deep-space satellite and spacecraft communication systems. It is known that the phase velocity of non-transverse electromagnetic (TEM)-mode radio waves is greater than the intrisic speed of light, c (3 x 10^8 m/s). The prevailing beliefs are that the phase velocity cannot be used for the transmission of radio messages unless it coincides with the group velocity and that no energy can travel faster than light. However, there is both experimental evidence and theoretical support to show that non-TEM-mode radio waves can be used to send digital radio message faster than light. It looks to me like they have demonstrated their point. Anyone wishing a copy of the article may send me their snail mail address. Just don't tell the copyright police. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 13:27:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04550; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:07:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:07:52 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980108210740.006da794 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:07:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: you can't connect with me Resent-Message-ID: <"V5jRA2.0.z61.d0Kjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck writes: >For example my current web site : > I tried your address, but it seems I have to sign up as a "Tripod" member first. Is there a more-direct address to your page that doesn't have a "Tripod" road-block in place? Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 13:32:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09066; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:20:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:20:18 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 2 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:19:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd1c7b$20515c40$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0078_01BD1C51.377B5440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"DOupo1.0.UD2.DCKjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BD1C51.377B5440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, =20 Just to state the obvious here, something is outgassing as the = temperature is increasing. In experiments of this kind it would be = desirable to bake the system under vacuum to at least the highest = temperature expected during the actual run. Hard to do here because of = the KNO3 but perhaps possible with a separate KNO3 heater. The vapor pressure of the KNO3 will tend to be limited by the lowest = temperature surface that it contacts. Heating the gas to a higher = temperature than the walls may therefore be of limited effectiveness. I think that the active catalyst cannot actually be KNO3, which would = decompose on the filament but that a sufficient vapor pressure of KNO3 = must reach the vicinity of the filament to have any possibility of = generating the (unknown) reactive compound. One more probably not yet relevant comment from my time developing gas = plasma displays. Positive ions can be drawn to the cathode (the negative = electrode) by an electric field. I have a patent on using this elevated = temperature glow discharge technique to plate mercury onto the cathodes = of DC plasma displays after assembly, resulting in more than 10 times = increase in useful life. We want the K+ ions near the filament. This is a very important experiment - keep up the good work! George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems ------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BD1C51.377B5440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott,
 
Just to state the obvious here, something is = outgassing as the=20 temperature is increasing. In experiments of this kind it would be = desirable to=20 bake the system under vacuum to at least the highest temperature = expected during=20 the actual run. Hard to do here because of the KNO3 but perhaps possible = with a=20 separate KNO3 heater. 
 
The vapor pressure of the KNO3 will tend to be = limited by the=20 lowest temperature surface that it contacts. Heating the gas to a higher = temperature than the walls may therefore be of limited=20 effectiveness.
 
 I think that the active catalyst cannot = actually be=20 KNO3, which would  decompose on the filament but that a sufficient = vapor=20 pressure of KNO3 must reach the vicinity of the filament to have any = possibility=20 of generating the (unknown) reactive compound.
 
One more probably not yet relevant = comment from=20 my time developing gas plasma displays. Positive ions can be drawn to = the=20 cathode (the negative electrode) by an electric field. I have a patent = on using=20 this elevated temperature glow discharge technique to plate mercury onto = the=20 cathodes of DC plasma displays after assembly, resulting in  more = than 10=20 times increase in useful life. We want the K+ ions near the=20 filament.
 
This is a very important experiment - keep up the = good=20 work!
 
George Holz    george@varisys.com
Varitronics = Systems
 
------=_NextPart_000_0078_01BD1C51.377B5440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 13:51:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15816; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:43:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:43:20 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34B54860.25BCAE81 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 15:42:56 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: you can't connect with me References: <1.5.4.32.19980108210740.006da794 atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1ouau2.0.ys3.tXKjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kurt Johmann wrote: > John Steck writes: > >For example my current web site : > > > > I tried your address, but it seems I have to sign up as a "Tripod" > member first. > > Is there a more-direct address to your page that doesn't have a > "Tripod" road-block in place? Not a road block, just a pain in the ass pop up page on top of your original browser window. Pisses me off too but seems to be the trend lately. Unfortunately there is no way around it other than minimizing it, member or not. If you close it, it just comes back with the next page you bring up. It is a stupid system thing on their end. Whatever. Anyway, I gave my site as an example of how a random visitor would not be able to go further than the index page. I don't have my 'projects' page up and running yet so there really is nothing for vorts to see yet. Free time to work out the bugs has been scarce and to be honest I am not really expecting it to be completely up and running until later this year. Thanks for trying though! 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 14:04:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13907; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:52:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:52:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:47:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1c7f$1521c180$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5pOMT3.0.8P3.qgKjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: >If 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into >KNO2 and O,it would raise the 140 cm^3 chamber >pressure by about 10 Torr. I think not: H2 + O ---> H2O (no pressure rise). What you got here,Scott, is your typical *Bound* Light Lepton Pair Production from the filament photons, which increases the pressure without any net energy production. :-) Now, if you could only increase their Hydrogen or Electron capture cross-section to make the energy generating Electrinos-Hydrinos. More Potassium Pressure, Perhaps? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 14:43:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26888; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:28:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:28:01 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <43480aa2.34b551fc aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:23:55 EST To: jimostr ctainforms.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions to the Maxwell Equations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"xW3Rp1.0.wZ6.lBLjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FTL solutions from Maxwell's eqns are also covered in W. A. Rodrigues and Jian-Yu Lu, "On the existence of undistorted progressive waves (UPWs) of arbitrary speeds 0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jNc7X1.0.Mf7.mULjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Tampere work showed no change in 1/1000 parts from next to device and out to 3 meters. It also went through the FLOOR to the lab above. It worked with metallic and non metallic targets. John On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Robin - > > > I didn't think a Faraday cage would > > necessarily screen against plain magnetic > > field changes, unless it were made of a > > magnetic screening material. > > Right. > > NASA says they had some effect too until they put a half inch steel plate > over it, then it went away. As I recall the Tampere experiment had a thin > sheet of plastic over it. Of course this doesn't cover all the aspects of > the Tampere story, like the very large "column" ovre the SC. It's > suspicious though. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 15:40:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28861; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:29:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:29:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:28:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801082328.PAA07779 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"poi9D3.0.t27.Q5Mjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: As John S. just reminded, the Tampere effect works (if we can assume that) on nonmagnetic materials, and the effect is seen as a vertical column *above* the device. Now, forgive me if this has been brought up before, but: if the Tampere effect is real; *and* if gravity is a net push from 'above' rather than a pull 'downward'; then doesn't that mean that the Tampere device is providing 'push'? Therefore, it wouldn't be a 'shield' - it would be a (highly directional) energy-output device? If so, that device apparently converts (I suppose) our applied 'normal' energy (the mag field, rotation, applied external exciter fields, etc) into whatever-it-is-that-gives-the-gravity-push. That would have all sorts of interesting ramifications, eh? Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 15:52:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01883; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:46:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:46:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980108174616.00b596b4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:46:16 -0600 To: "vortex-l" From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 In-Reply-To: <01bd1c7f$1521c180$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9qrw_.0.DT.PLMjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 14:47 1/8/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>If 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into >KNO2 and O,it would raise the >140 cm^3 chamber >pressure by about 10 Torr. > >I think not: H2 + O ---> H2O (no pressure rise). hmmm! probably right, Fred. Well! at the risk of taking things one step at a time , I decided to clean up the apparatus, put in a new W filament and do a test run tomorrow without any KNO3 present. It's all back together now and under high vacuum and mild heating for the same sort of "bake out" (~100C) I've given it previously. We'll see what the pressure does without the KNO3! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:03:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15918; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:55:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:55:33 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:58:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"S-iNM1.0.eu3.qTMjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:09 PM 1/8/98, Scott Little wrote: >Data and discussion of Run 2 can be viewed at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run2.html > >Many interesting things happened in this run...but not the one we're all >looking for. Things are obviously not perfect with this system yet. I >need help deciding what to do next. Your thought of running without KNO3 sure sounds like the right way to go. You can degas the cell and/or find out something about what is happening all at the same time. Changing too many variables at once creates a moving target. You may have a leak in the cell that is temperature related, maybe due to differing coefficients of thermal expansion of some components. For future runs, after the next one, multiple filaments at different loctions might be useful to help diagnose further filament failures as chemical related or not. A second filament might also avoid another burnout by better handling the wattage demand. Well, that's my 2 cents worth. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:06:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03899; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:56:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:56:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:58:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"n68b1.0.ly.bUMjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:41 AM 1/8/98, Ross Tessien wrote: [snip] >But if you consider a compressible medium, such as air or water (yes water >is compressible, sonoluminescence compresses it to 10g/cm^2!), then you can [snip] The water would then be a plasma, and thus not water, true? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:09:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17980; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:06:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:06:14 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:09:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"Zt7bQ1.0.rO4.rdMjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:47 PM 1/8/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Scott wrote: > >>If 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into >KNO2 and O,it would raise the >140 cm^3 chamber >pressure by about 10 Torr. > >I think not: H2 + O ---> H2O (no pressure rise). What about the N? 2 KNO2 + 2 H2 --> 2 K + N2 + 2 H2O Even if the K stays behind as a solid that's 2 gas molecules (2 N2) replaced by 3 gas molecules (N2 + 2 H2O). However, if NH3 forms or something like that, then the gas volume might be reduced. Another possibility is H2 --> 2 H, with the KNO3 almost completely out of the picture? It happens with Brown's gas, maybe can happen with a hot filament? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:16:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06530; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:11:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:11:30 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801090010.SAA26575 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: video capture In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980108081305.0082ce40 mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Jan 8, 98 08:13:05 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:10:25 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7hw2E1.0.xb1.liMjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > I'd like a digital camera but it'd have to be a pretty fancy one, I think. > I have a Super-8 video camera that has great close-up capability. Does > anybody know if a video-capture card would work worth a damn? (reply > privately to save Vortex bandwidth.) Being a non-conformist, I will reply publicly ... The best device for capturing *still* images from video sources is the "Snappy." I think it is $150 now and it plugs in via your printer port. You should be able to buy "Snappy" at most computer retail stores, like CompUSA, ComputerCity, etc. The trick you can do with the Snappy and a video camera is to allow the Snappy to construct the still shot from several frames, it has the capability to interpolate the picture from as many as eight frames. However, it spreads these samples over several seconds, so you have to hold the camera very very still or blurs will result. The result is most amazing. You can compare it against a single frame image and note a huge difference. However, Snappy is no good at moving video -- it is not intended for that, and it can't delivery. You can capture single frames of any video, though the precision of which frame is caputered leaves something to be desired. But you can't capture multiple frames fast enough for constructing a real-time motion video. (But you can do claymation if you want.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:16:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20432; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:14:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:14:19 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:17:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20393 Resent-Message-ID: <"G782u2.0.2_4.PlMjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:47 PM 1/8/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Scott wrote: > >>If 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into >KNO2 and O,it would raise the >140 cm^3 chamber >pressure by about 10 Torr. > >I think not: H2 + O ---> H2O (no pressure rise). I wrote: "What about the N? 2 KNO2 + 2 H2 --> 2 K + N2 + 2 H2O Even if the K stays behind as a solid that's 2 gas molecules (2 N2) replaced by 3 gas molecules (N2 + 2 H2O). However, if NH3 forms or something like that, then the gas volume might be reduced. Another possibility is H2 --> 2 H, with the KNO3 almost completely out of the picture? It happens with Brown's gas, maybe can happen with a hot filament?" I just re-read the HTML, and I now see where the response was aimed: Scott wrote: "Where is the extra gas coming from? Maybe from the KNO3Šif 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into KNO2 and O, it would raise the 140 cm3 chamber pressure by about 10 torr." Sorry. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:31:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24603; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:25:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:25:02 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980108174616.00b596b4 mail.eden.com> References: <01bd1c7f$1521c180$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:24:48 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"PM7jK.0.206.OvMjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 14:47 1/8/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>>If 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into >KNO2 and O,it would raise the >>140 cm^3 chamber >pressure by about 10 Torr. >> >>I think not: H2 + O ---> H2O (no pressure rise). > >hmmm! probably right, Fred. Wait a minute. 10 torr of O is a lot more than the original 2 torr of H2. The first O out will combine with H2 to make H2O, but after all the H is reacted, the remaining many torr of O2 will raise the chamber pressure. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:37:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09425; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:28:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:28:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:21:45 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l Subject: Bake out ....Re: BLP action! Run 2 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980108174616.00b596b4 mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JJ5aX1.0.wI2.lyMjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Please bake to at least 170 to 200 C. All bound water and many volatiles will then be gone. Go higher, if you can. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:38:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09329; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:28:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:28:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:27:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801090027.QAA15005 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"rauC33.0.MH2.OyMjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: >if gravity is a net push from 'above' rather than a pull 'downward'; >then doesn't that mean that the Tampere device is providing 'push'? >Therefore, it wouldn't be a 'shield' - it would be a (highly directional) >energy-output device? ...or another interpretation of the same assumptions could be it's acting as a _reflector_ rather than an emitter. This might be a little easier to swallow than the above, if one starts thinking of the energy/grav/mass relationships. Dan Q From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:42:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10683; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:35:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801082328.PAA07779 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:35:05 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"TWKFs3.0.rc2.f3Njq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan - > As John S. just reminded, the Tampere > effect works (if we can assume that) on > nonmagnetic materials, and the effect is > seen as a vertical column *above* the > device. I think this misses my point as it seems to assume any spurious magnetic effect must have ferromagnetic materials to act upon to produce an apparent weight change. A magnetic field would probably affect *any* material to some slight noticable degree if either the field or the sample was moving in the right way, the effect being made via eddy currents in metals and *perhaps* even by induced magnetic and electrical effects in dielectrics due to lattice movements and possible electron orbit distortions. Bottom line is that you should always shield it heavily. Assumptions about slight weight changes in unshielded atmosphere are highly suspicious. But if the boojum rays go through a half inch of steel, they're interesting enough then anyway, of course. Perhaps it's the Hooper style induced unshieldable something-or-other, and then maybe it really is gravity or antigravity or the like. Some people believe that's the connection. I'm haven't thrown in with them yet, but it's all pretty interesting. That's why I like the capacitor self-charge and petrovoltaic stuff. It's the reverse of inducing gravity with electricity, it's inducing electricity with gravity - supposedly. It might be easier to prove a positive link there due to the simpler experiments and lower energies involved as opposed to high voltage work with all its interference. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 16:55:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA31795; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:48:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:47:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199801090047.QAA05328 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"xLT8z.0.im7.3FNjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 9:41 AM 1/8/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >[snip] >>But if you consider a compressible medium, such as air or water (yes water >>is compressible, sonoluminescence compresses it to 10g/cm^2!), then you can >[snip] > > >The water would then be a plasma, and thus not water, true? > That depends on the temperature. In SL, yes, you have a plasma at the interior. And even when you apply such radical pressures you can get wierd things to manifest including super conductivity etc., depending on the matter, pressure, density, temperature...... The point is, if you work with an aether that has two states, it allows you to have a marked non linearity, and this allows you all sorts of neat solitonic strucures and standing wave structures which allows you to describe spacetime as simply an acoustic topology of waves in aether. It also allows you to form a really neat thing we call a black hole, because you can have a convergence of a large volume of aether vapor (aka empty space) into a finite region inside of which that flow's ram pressure induces condensation to the more dense state. To understand this, a simple thermodynamic example is in order. If you suspend a piston over steam with water at the bottom (ie a saturated vapor) and then you add some small amount of mass, say 1/4 the mass of the piston to the system, how far down the column will the piston descend? Say, the piston is 1 foot in diameter, and the column is 10 feet tall above the water surface. Now, many of you are going to begin working with the ideal gas law and figure out the ratio of the compression of the gas to figure out if the piston descends 2.5 feet or whatever. But it is a trick question. The answer is, the piston will descend all the way to the bottom. The reason is because the water vapor will condense rather than build up in pressure because it is in the saturated condition. The aether in the universe is a saturated vapor, and what we call particles, are like droplets of fog maintaining the saturation conditions via a process of evaporation of the droplets we call "fusion"! Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 17:09:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15473; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:01:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:01:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980108204014.00a256c0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:40:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TlMjA3.0.bn3.LRNjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ahem. This is quite correct. What I meant was that the wavelength was twice as long at the frequency given than that calcuable from C. I thought it would be clear from the rest of the post. Regardless, as I mentioned earlier this is nothing to write home about. At 09:17 AM 1/8/98 GMT, you wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:47:42 -0500, Keith Nagel wrote: >[snip] >>magnetic components propagation. The wavelength at >>that frequency was about twice C. > >What does this mean? > >(wavelength is measured in meters, C in meters/sec.) > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 17:22:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18159; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:19:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:19:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980108205837.00a256c0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:58:41 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ayWcM.0.dR4.biNjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:45 AM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: >Keith Nagel wrote: >> > >(snip good stuff on wave propagation) > >> I tried to measure this in a low frequency (300Mhz) >> waveguide once. It was composed of about 10 55gal >> drums sanded and strapped to form a tube. The >> lowest order mode of the cavity was TE if I'm not >> mistaken; the idea being to measure the longitudinal >> magnetic components propagation. The wavelength at >> that frequency was about twice C. >> > >This blows my mind, Keith!! I have used welded 55 gal drums for raft >floats but as a waveguide! Great! Yeah, my employer at the time got a big laugh out of it. But he had to agree, the logic of the thing was inescapable. You see, the problem with most experiments done with higher order modes of radiation is that the frequencies are so damned high you can't make reasonable measurements on a cycle by cycle basis. The drums were just low enough in frequency that our Lecroy 9450 could sniff it. Making things real big solves lots of problems, it becomes a question of economics then as to whether the approach is viable. > >> I also built a ripple tank to demonstrate this principle. >> This I would recommend to anyone contemplating radio >> experimentation. >> >If not too complicated, Keith, just how would the ripple tank be used >to, say, design a horn emitter for an S-band radar feed? > Well, the best problems are those that due to symmetry could be reduced to two dimensions. I would then arrange barriers in the pool to model the cavity under consideration. Then, apply a regulated oscillation to the water. I'll leave this part to your imagination as to how that can be done. The general idea was to get a gut feeling for how waves mix in space. The model obviously has shortcomings, but like I said after you play with it for a while you can look at some complex conditions and say, oh yeah, its gonna do that... >Another thing I wish I knew about is if a dielectric waveguide (a round >plastic water pipe) could be used for S-band transmission. I wondered >if a horn emitter could direct an S-band - the 2400 MHz microwave oven >rf is in the S-band, right? - radar beam through the inside of a plastic >pipe. The object would be to mount a ladder of antenna-diode units >along the pipe to form a voltage multiplier. Sort of a radar powered >Van-de-graff generator. I wouldn't want to try this unless the pipe >could confine the rf pretty well. I suppose the diodes with a fast >enough response time (mechanical engineer, you know) might cost a >fortune even if available. > >Frank Stenger > Yes, I would imagine the diodes to be the weak point. I remember trying to find really fast diodes for a project involving spak gaps; ouch! For microwave, I haven't the foggiest. The only thing I'm familiar with there are detector type diodes, I don't think they'd feel so good with all that power coursing thru them. I'll try to post more under the original thread title. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 17:38:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20273; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:34:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:34:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:30:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1c9e$2c43e720$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"K8kyP1.0.fy4.gwNjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Schaffer gav.gat.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 4:46 PM Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 >>At 14:47 1/8/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >>>>If 0.01 grams of the KNO3 dissociated into >KNO2 and O,it would raise the >>>140 cm^3 chamber >pressure by about 10 Torr. >>> >>>I think not: H2 + O ---> H2O (no pressure rise). >> >>hmmm! probably right, Fred. > >Wait a minute. 10 torr of O is a lot more than the original 2 torr of H2. >The first O out will combine with H2 to make H2O, but after all the H is >reacted, the remaining many torr of O2 will raise the chamber pressure. Not against a Hot Tungsten Filament! Yet you will ignore the VERY CRUX of the BLP Hydrino Concept, With TENS of WATTS of Photons Creating Particles MILLIONS OF TIMES LIGHTER AND LARGER THAN H2 MOLECULES? Talk about *MAYBE* "Throwing The Baby Out With The Bathwater". :-) Time will tell, won't it? Regards, Frederick > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 17:56:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13085; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:49:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:49:32 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:49:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"-fp9O3.0.NC3.h8Ojq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, >I think this misses my point as it seems to assume any spurious magnetic >effect must have ferromagnetic materials to act upon to produce an apparent >weight change. Right, I had made that erroneous assumption. >A magnetic field would probably affect *any* material to some slight >noticable degree if either the field or the sample was moving in the right >way, the effect being made via eddy currents in metals and *perhaps* even >by induced magnetic and electrical effects in dielectrics due to lattice >movements and possible electron orbit distortions. [snip] You may be right, Rick; the magnetic/electromagnetic effects you mention would be *very* slight but so is the observed effect. My post wasn't really addressing that possibility, I suppose, partially because it would be awfully difficult to differentiate between the two causes of the observation with an effect of such very small magnitude. It may not be until/unless the effect can be made more robust that we are able to make a better determination. In shielding for magnetism, we may also block the very effects we're trying to measure, if they're subtle. That half-inch steel plate is pretty massive - how does that compare with the target mass? Not to say we shouldn't attempt to control for conventional effects, but must do it very carefully. I suppose my post should have been with a different subject heading, as it was a thought-experiment based on an assumption that the thing works as advertised. Dan Q From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 17:56:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14006; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:54:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:54:43 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:57:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"0uRrb1.0.gQ3.YDOjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:47 PM 1/8/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>At 9:41 AM 1/8/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>[snip] >>>But if you consider a compressible medium, such as air or water (yes water >>>is compressible, sonoluminescence compresses it to 10g/cm^2!), then you can >>[snip] >> >> >>The water would then be a plasma, and thus not water, true? >> > >That depends on the temperature. [snip] I don't think temperature matters. Unless you are invoking sub-Bohr orbitals, it does not seem possible that you can shrink the orbitals to 22 percent of their original size and have them still be orbitals. Besides, the energy to do that is sufficent to ionize, unless of course the formation of small orbitals actually *gives up* the energy, as has been proposed by BLP, etc. The point is, if water can do this, then maybe that is evidence in itself for sub-Bohr orbitals. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:00:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23426; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:54:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:54:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:47:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Frank... you CAN ...Re: FTL Challenge In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980108205837.00a256c0 cnct.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"oX_kQ.0.xj5.5DOjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Keith Nagel wrote: > At 12:45 AM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Keith Nagel wrote: > >> > > > >(snip good stuff on wave propagation) > > > >> I tried to measure this in a low frequency (300Mhz) > >> waveguide once. It was composed of about 10 55gal > >> drums sanded and strapped to form a tube. > Yeah, my employer at the time got a big laugh out of it. > But he had to agree, the logic of the thing was inescapable. Keith: I thought only I was "cavendish" enough to do such a thing! Are you a member of LWCA? Long Wave Club of America ... 2 meg cps and down. You would like the 180 k cps rigs they do. You can send up to one watt, unlicensed.... imagine what the rigs are like! J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:00:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22776; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:51:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:51:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:44:16 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Terry Blanton cc: Vortex Subject: Re: FTL Communications In-Reply-To: <34B56527.56C7 bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3NpMW.0.hZ5.1AOjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Chop.... The prevailing beliefs are that the > phase velocity cannot be used for the transmission of radio messages ================================= > unless it coincides with the group velocity 'Dep Dep' WHY? =========== and that no energy can travel faster than light. But cannot CHANGE travel faster than light ?? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:16:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24874; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:06:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:06:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:08:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"5WMN5.0.a46.9OOjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:30 PM 1/8/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] > >Yet you will ignore the VERY CRUX of the BLP >Hydrino Concept, With TENS of WATTS of Photons >Creating Particles MILLIONS OF TIMES LIGHTER >AND LARGER THAN H2 MOLECULES? Could you explain that Fred? I must have missed something on the BLP web pages. Are they saying the hydrino is lighter and larger than hydrogen? Are you talking about your light lepton theory? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:24:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19811; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:20:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:20:42 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34B4F1A5.F48DDCD7 ecg.csg.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:20:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Massive black hole pinpointed at heart of Milky Way Resent-Message-ID: <"Zkn-A3.0.Qr4.ubOjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Elsewhere in the galaxy, the astronomers told of a kind of "Old >Faithful" black hole that siphons off matter from a nearby companion >star, then periodically erupts in a blast of plasma. Scientists even >made an audio recording of these rhythmic eruptions." right! and it's got a 30 minute period. the people with the gravity wave detectors need to increase their sampling rates. if they're only sampling once an hour, they'll never see it... [from CNN] > Another suspected black hole in our galaxy, a so-called > binary system, is apparently ``feeding'' on nearby companion > star, sucking up matter into a doughnut-like disk and then > belching it out in a 10-minute-long explosion of jets of hot > gas. > > The cycle repeats about every 30 minutes when the black hole > is in an active mood, scientists said at a briefing. > > Scientists at the National Aeronautics and Space > Administration (NASA) have dubbed this object ``Old > Faithful'' after the earthly geyser at Yellowstone National > Park, even though the suspected black hole is 40,000 light > years away and far more powerful, emitting a mass equal to a > 100 trillion ton asteroid at a speed of about 650 million > mph To illustrate these findings, a researcher at the > Massachusetts Institute of Technology put together an audio > rendition of these regular blasts -- not the actual sound > but a conversion of data into sound. It sounded a bit like a > fast human heart-beat. r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:36:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28612; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:32:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:32:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:34:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"2YQIf1.0.z-6.emOjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:57 AM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] > For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum > "jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has > to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use > the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the > relation having to do with `energy conservation': > > eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) > I don't understand how E = hv relates in any way to quantization of energy. Could you explain that? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:41:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22061; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:29:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:29:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980108220912.00a24428 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:09:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: FTL Experiment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"eElbN3.0.aO5.xjOjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings : Shortly after reading Ishii's article in Microwaves and RF, I had occasion to visit Wisconsin for a cousins wedding. As an uncle of mine is a prof. in the University of Wis. system, he was able to arrange a meeting for me. Unfortunately, the man was not what I would call congenial; I had a terrible cold as well, but we muddled through the meeting. Basically, his experiments revolve about some studies done with microwave plumbing launching TE or TM type waves into free space, he attempts to measure the group velocity with a diode type detector. As everyone knows, it's no trick to get any relation of wavelength to frequency one desires in such cavities. This is by no means FTL. At the time, I suggested to him that in order to really nail the effect down he was going to have to measure the actual waves, and not the envelope that the diode was detecting. Towards this end, I suggested using 55gal cans as waveguide tubing, which can be excited to lowest order TE modes at about 300Mhz, measurable with a decent scope. Same circuit, only !larger! so you can measure it accurately. I doubt he took this advice, but having a mess of cans around at the time and some free time, I put such a circuit together. It was quite amusing actually, like playing with those huge tinker toys they used to sell. BTW, the difficult part was getting the cans together with good electrical contact. They were coated with some sort of super tough enamel to resist the toxic crap that would have been stored in them. Anyway, I measured the actual group velocity both inside the waveguide ( where the LM wave was several times the speed of C ) and outside. Neither showed anomaly. The detector was a quarter wave antenna using a CT1 or CT2 current probe to measure base current. A pair of these led to the scope, which measured the time difference between the arrival of the first half cycle. The leading half cycle propagated as a TEM wave, which over the span of the next few cycles would "ring up" to the standing wave condition; after which the LM wave would be evident. It's like filling a bathtub with water folks. Watch it sometime; it doesn't happen all at once. :^) I'll stress here that there may still be something to this; just that the initial work I did stuck to standard theory. Still plenty of room to experiment here. I'll leave it to you to figure out my reasons; suffice it to say there is nothing out of the ordinary in generating longitudinal electric OR magnetic waves in cavities. Any good RF textbook will show you this. What this actually means is another matter. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:50:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29896; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: A&Z 1994-1997 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:39:37 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980109024515610.AAA216 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"g2_Qm3.0.2J7.HwOjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've had a chance to scan the translation of the 1994 A&Z paper and some related figures furnished by Akira Kawasaki. It makes clear that the 1997 paper discussed at length on vortex is the capstone of an investigation spanning many years. As such, the 1997 paper summarized but did not detail previous work which was reported in more detail in the 1994 paper forwarded by Akira Kawasaki. The package also includes an illustration from a published paper cited by Kirk Shanahan, with additional comments which clarify its relationship to the 1997 paper. The additional paper fills in details of the calorimetry, repeatability, and the loading advantages of the DS cathode structure, which are briefly summarized in the 1997 paper. The bulk of that paper is filled with the QMS data showing the presence of nuclear ash (4He and 3He), and a discussion of the "latticequake" mechanism as a candidate for the LENR. Rich Murray has a copy of the same information. I hope he studies it carefully, as I will. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 18:51:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25995; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:47:40 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:42:05 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? In-Reply-To: <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"223pd3.0.5M6.B_Ojq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Preface: I am in no way unhappy with the comments of vo... I am writing these notes to illustrate answers to general comments from non-vo persons in the news AND in peer reviewed published papers. Persons who should be able to read and interpret a perr reviewed published paper written by others... in this case Eugene's ... Dear Vo., Some notes... and some opinion ... On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Dan Quickert wrote: > Rick, 1] If the effect is magnetic at one meter and the effect is 2% ... and the effect is 2% at 2 meters.... how is this going to fit? > >I think this misses my point as it seems to assume any spurious magnetic effect must have ferromagnetic materials to act upon to produce an apparent weight change. > > Right, I had made that erroneous assumption. > > >A magnetic field would probably affect *any* material to some slight > >noticable degree if either the field or the sample was moving in the right way, the effect being made via eddy currents in metals and *perhaps* even by induced magnetic and electrical effects in dielectrics due to lattice movements and possible electron orbit distortions. 2] Sample is not moving ... see [1]. > [snip] > > You may be right, Rick; the magnetic/electromagnetic effects you mention > would be *very* slight but so is the observed effect. > 3] The effect in my work is a solid 2% ... and 2% is NOT slight! In the first paper the effect ranged from about +5% to -2% ... which is even LESS 'not slight'. AND .... Eugene said there were higher transients. > My post wasn't really addressing that possibility, I suppose, partially > because it would be awfully difficult to differentiate between the two > causes of the observation with an effect of such very small magnitude. See [1] It may not be until/unless the effect can be made more robust that we are able to make a better determination. See [1] In shielding for magnetism, we may also > block the very effects we're trying to measure, if they're subtle. ------------------------------------- NASA had a signal of about 'next to zip' ... or nowhere NEAR 2% ... THEN they put the plate and it dissapeared. That > half-inch steel plate is pretty massive - how does that compare with the > target mass? Not to say we shouldn't attempt to control for conventional > effects, but must do it very carefully. NASA's target mass was not one .... they had accelerometer. > > I suppose my post should have been with a different subject heading, as it > was a thought-experiment based on an assumption that the thing works as > advertised. > > Dan Q > > Suggestion: 1] Go to www.gravity.org and read ALL the papers 2] After reading the papers ... IGNORE the math and theory and cull ALL descriptions of the experimental set ups. 3] Hint: You get a reqal good idea of the experimental set up if you read ALL the papers. J PS: One of the reasons I was able to even get started was I read ALL the papers. Modanese and Podkletnov did well in describing ... but it is not all in one single paper. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 19:53:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09104; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:49:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:49:56 -0800 Message-ID: <34B65A09.225F bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:10:33 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL Experiment References: <3.0.32.19980108220912.00a24428 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sKFSj.0.5E2.ZvPjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Greetings : > > Shortly after reading Ishii's article in > Microwaves and RF, I had occasion to visit > Wisconsin for a cousins wedding. As an uncle of mine > is a prof. in the University of Wis. system, > he was able to arrange a meeting for me. Unfortunately, the > man was not what I would call congenial; I had a terrible cold > as well, but we muddled through the meeting. > > Basically, his experiments revolve about some studies done with microwave > plumbing launching TE or TM type waves into free space, he attempts to measure > the group velocity with a diode type detector. [snip] > I'll stress here that there may still be something to this; just that the > initial > work I did stuck to standard theory. Still plenty of room to experiment here. > I'll leave it to you to figure out my reasons; > suffice it to say there is nothing out of the ordinary in generating > longitudinal > electric OR magnetic waves in cavities. Any good RF textbook will show you > this. > What this actually means is another matter. > > KPN Hi Keith, I have not done any testing to verify Ishii's results; however, he presents his theoretical premise in the article and his results compare nicely to the theory. He also presents several references. Many of our more vocal members of the list have requested the article and will have copies in their hands next week to discuss the issues. As a side note, I once tried to engage Dick Blue in a discussion on this in the Science Forum on CompuServe. I could not even get him to agree to read the article although he was quick to debunk it. I don't think I have read any of his writings since (sorry, Rich). Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 19:55:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11758; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:50:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:50:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B65762.35EB bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:59:14 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL Communications References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NE72k2.0.et2.RwPjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Chop.... > > The prevailing beliefs are that the > > phase velocity cannot be used for the transmission of radio messages > ================================= > > > unless it coincides with the group velocity > > 'Dep Dep' WHY? > > =========== > > and that no energy can travel faster than light. > > But cannot CHANGE travel faster than light ?? > > J Ah! And if it is *controlled change*, then information could be transmitted FTL! Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 20:01:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10089; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:57:02 -0800 Message-ID: <34B59278.6FAE earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:59:04 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, lucille@telis.org, rollo artvark.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Werbos: dyon theory Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"NJRM33.0.XT2.C0Qjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from beta.nsf.gov (firewall-user beta.nsf.gov [206.2.78.5]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07532 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by beta.nsf.gov; id KAA22869; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailman.nsf.gov(128.150.11.2) by beta.nsf.gov via smap (3.2) id xmaa22828; Thu, 8 Jan 98 10:02:09 -0500 Received: from [128.150.140.171] (eng0162.eng.nsf.gov [128.150.140.171]) by mailman.nsf.gov (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA17706; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:01:54 -0500 X-Sender: pwerbos popsrvr.nsf.gov Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2600ca92.34b40d58 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:04:06 -0500 To: Puthoff , sarfatti@well.com, creon@nas.nasa.gov From: "Paul J. Werbos" Subject: Questions about Empirical Fit Cc: NEONLEO aol.com, susskind@dormouse.stanford.edu, Lfuller@istar.ca, lwilliam stars.sfsu.edu, Marc.G.Millis@lerc.nasa.gov, MGerm97572 aol.com, mpesce@netcom.com, ibison@ntr.net, mjharris atl.mindspring.com, mgm@santafe.edu, vnv@history.ihst.ru, Chalice2 aol.com, quanta@cruzio.com, pdavies@physics.adelaide.edu.au, pwg nanothinc.com, pzielins@ix.netcom.com, pr-holland@wpg.uwe.ac.uk, physics intuition.org, palyne@zmatrix.com, ranpac@vom.com, rbrtbass pahrump.com, Rhino6@aol.com, rmforall@earthlink.net, metzger bway.net, rmlauria@email.unc.edu, chronos@enter.net, wolfr usfca.edu, Rjon11@aol.com, rtarg@espresearch.com, samster istar.ca, sirag@pond.net, skonyaev@iphras.irex.ru, SKEPTICMAG aol.com, shoup@interval.com, klein@adage.Berkeley.EDU, meru1 well.com, stanj@yorku.ca, srh@ccit.arizona.edu, stu@santafe.edu, Tedrock cpcug.org, Surjit@aol.com, tsmith@innerx.net, vjs uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu, Freetht@azstarnet.com, west@sonic.net, iwar iwar.org Once again, I worry about the danger that all of our discussions will become truly irrelevant, unless we someday find a way of connecting to empirical results which the mainstream can register as significant (if not palatable...). It seems that Puthoff, in this email, and myself have at least raised some testable issues, which is encouraging. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK if anyone on this list knows whether there are decisive empirical facts out there ALREADY on these two points, before we proceed further. FIRST, RE Puthoff's idea************************************************************************** At 6:18 PM -0500 1/7/98, Puthoff wrote: >In a message dated 1/7/98 6:31:43 PM, sarfatti well.com forwarded Oliver >Cohen's comment: > ><arguments for interpreting Lorentz invariance as a statistical feature >rather than an irreducible property of physical processes as is usually >assumed. By viewing Lorentz invariance as a statistical property, >relativity itself becomes a statistical theory>> > >There is a nice correlation here with physical theory that emphasizes a zero- >point-energy (ZPE) basis for much of physics, as I and my colleagues have >done. The correlation is that Lorentz invariance is seen as simply a >correlate of the cubic-frequency ZPE distribution (the only Lorentz-invariant >random distribution), and, since the cubic frequency distribution is >statistical in nature, it stands as a corollary that the associated Lorentz >invariance is also statistical. > >Hal Puthoff In my own efforts at a realistic model, I have focused on the zero-noise limit, MAINLY because that allows me to get exact adherence to special relativity. (I note that there is a whole literature on "stochastic quantization" which uses background noise, to get realistic models which are exactly in harmony with relativity, but at the price of assuming six-dimensional space-time without any condensation mechanism that I can find...) I see no reason to ADD something unnecessary and unobserved to the theory (noise) , whose sole value would be to add a feature -- nonrelativistic behavior -- for which there is no empirical support. (Does it also buy particle stability? There are other ways to buy that anyway... ) The question is: isn't there a rather huge body of experiment supporting special relativity up to rather high energies? Where do you expect your beyond-cubic correction to be measurable.. and has it alreday been measured in at least some high-energy domain? I have often wondered if relativistic invariance would be something like the speed of sound for low-energy modes in a crystal -- something which would break down at higher energy levels somehow. But where would such a thing show up empirically? ********************************************************************* In terms of my own meanderings.... One question I've asked is whether it would make sense to revive Schwinger's dyon idea -- that "there is no strong interaction" (essentially Schwinger's words, from Particles, Sources and Fields 1969), that nucleons are made up of "dyons" instead of quarks, interacting on an electromagnetic basis -- BUT WITH BOSONIC dyons instead of fermionic ones, assuming that the mechanisms described by ASGoldhaber make it possible to build a fermionic baryon out of bosons. (Of course, Schwinger was not questioning the existence of pions or nuclear exchange reactions based on pions; instead, he was questioning quarks and gluons.) (A dyon is an electrically charged magnetic monopole, assuming the OLDER form of expanded Maxwell's Laws which permit monopoles without reducing to a 4-vector A field everywhere; to allow monpoles, in effect, they add an extra potential vector. This is not a Dirac-style monopole. Certainly we can believe Schwinger when he says this is consistent with quantum field theory!!!) My friends say, in effect,.. ".. but haven't we proven that quarks exist... what of the deep inelastic scattering experiments?" Today, I reviewed the few books I own dealing with that... mainly Itzykson and Zhuber, and Makhankov, Rybakov and Sanyuk... and.. as I look at the results... the deep scattering stuff mainly seems to say that nucleons are made up of SOMETHING small, but not WHAT... so far as I can tell, it could be a dyon. DOes anyone know if more modern work specifically shows that the constituents of a nucleaon (partons?) must be electrically charged and not magnetically charged? (I wonder if the scattering across a dyon has even been worked out, let alone tested.) Of course, quark theory has also reproduced hadron masses, but I suspect one could play similar combinatorial games with dyons, without too much trouble. HOWEVER: with bosonic dyons, I wonder if "color" could be avoided? The argument for color seems to be that we need it to explain a three-s baryon, the omega baryon. But if we had three bosonic dyons, we simply wouldn't need such an extraneous device. Is there other empirical data saying that we really need "color," except for what it does to the Pauli principle here? I wonder if that other "student of Schwinger" you folks cited might be able to work out some of these predictions? (I took a couple of Schwinger's courses myself, but never followed up with exercising these kinds of calculations enough for this kind of serious issue..) I haven't read the literature on what magnetic monopoles would offer for stuff like "breakthrough propulsion," but it's my impression lots of folks think they could have lots of uses, if they exist... --------------- A different angle... in a totally different approach... I've seen suggestions by Ed Witten of Princeton that baryons could be derived completely as the solitons of a BOSONIC meson theory. In the book edited by Chodos, he suggested a program for finding out if this could be done. I wonder if that program has ever been tried? If so, ... I think it would provide another approach to building a realistic theory (i.e. bosonic foundation, which we could reproduce from a neoclassical viewpoint), without any need for quarks that I can see.... Best of luck, Paul W. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 20:08:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13587; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:04:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:04:29 -0800 (PST) From: atech ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980108230335.008873f8 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 23:03:35 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: video capture Resent-Message-ID: <"6DVb93.0.3K3.67Qjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:10 PM 1/8/98 -0600, you wrote: >Scott Little wrote: >> I'd like a digital camera but it'd have to be a pretty fancy one, I think. >> I have a Super-8 video camera that has great close-up capability. Does >> anybody know if a video-capture card would work worth a damn? (reply >> privately to save Vortex bandwidth.) > >Being a non-conformist, I will reply publicly ... Here's the system I have: Pentium 200Mhz 48 Meg RAM 5 Gig EIDE Mode4 (16Mb/s) Hard Disk note: EIDE already has continuous feed feature built in. Unlike SCSI in which you must be careful about thermal recalibration data interrupt. The new Ultra EIDE is rated 33Mb/s and can do full screen capture with a little bit of compression (the motherboard or EIDE card must have Ultra feature). EIDE is also 1/2 the price of Ultra Wide SCSI (40 Mb/s) and you don't need a SCSI card. Truevision Bravado 1000 (there are better cards out there now) that came packaged with Premier (video capture editing software) and Photoshop LE. This system can do 320 x 240 video capture with 3:1 compression without dropping a frame. I think the key is having a fast enough CPU and harddisk. I later added an Adapatec 2940 SCSI card with a TEAC 4x4 CD recorder (4x takes 20 min. to record a 640 Mb CD). This came with Corel CD Creator software. I have yet to drop a frame or glitch a CD. I would like to extend my video capture/CD recording services to the participants of this list. Dennis C. Lee From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 20:37:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20534; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:31:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:31:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:30:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199801090430.UAA28585 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"fpkUi2.0.l05.hWQjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 4:47 PM 1/8/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >I don't think temperature matters. Unless you are invoking sub-Bohr >orbitals, it does not seem possible that you can shrink the orbitals to 22 >percent of their original size and have them still be orbitals. Besides, >the energy to do that is sufficent to ionize, unless of course the >formation of small orbitals actually *gives up* the energy, as has been >proposed by BLP, etc. The point is, if water can do this, then maybe that >is evidence in itself for sub-Bohr orbitals. > I never intended to get into a discussion regarding the behavior of water, and didn't intend to imply any precision in my statements about waters behavior under extreme compression. Meerly that in SL experiments, Cray computer analyses using classified bomb code predict densities of 10 g / cc, which is like the densities a bit down into the solar interior. The densities near the center get up to 100g/cc or more. But that is a plasma in all of those cases, though the water is not all plasma and is far above 1g/cc in liquid form according to the graphs. As far as the compression, remember that you are dealing with volumes, so if you compress water to 10 percent of the original size, you have only reduced molecular spacings to 46 percent, ie cube root of 0.10. Water is particularly awkward as molecules go, so I don't know what that means as far as the bohr radius etc. Remember that 10g/cc is still less than the density of mercury. The point was to use an analogy to explain what I meant by aether condensation. ie, a large non linear change in the density of the material in a given volume of absolute spacetime. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 21:21:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26713; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:11:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:11:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B5A2F4.6506 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:09:24 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Re: "Expert" Shanahan re Carrell re Arata spillover effect References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-YZwj1.0.IX6.F6Rjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Carrell: re "Expert" Shanahan re Carrell re Arata Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 12:42 -0400 (EDT) From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov To: rmforall earthlink.net Hi Rich, Could you distribute this for me? Thanks, Kirk ------------------------------------------------------------------- Before beginning the usual 'point-by-point' response, let me note the following: - Mike makes several references to the fact that the Figure 7 discussion should have been in the first post. I'll agree to that, especially in light of the way this thread went. Mea culpa. - Mike seems to have understood my mass and packing concept, he does seem to have some problems with it. - Mike and I agree that the loading mechanism seems to be unimportant, but note that A&Z are claiming something different. - Mike also again broadens the discussion to cover other aspects of the paper, and I am not quite ready to discuss those. I will defer discussion except for short comments. - I have a lot of business travel upcoming, so it will be awhile before more comments arrive. Also note that I have tacked on a response at the end of this note to Jed Rothwell's ad hominem attack. Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} [kirk.shanahan srs.gov] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote key: 1 > - most recent Carrell (2nd response) 2 > - next most recent Shanahan 3 > - 1st Carrell response - all snipped 4 > - Original forwarded Shanahan - all snipped {{big snip}} > > At least no points are plotted for less than 1 atm. Granted. However, it is probably impossible to come up with a pressure sensor that would read the 0-10 atm range with some sensitivity and then also be useable up to near 1000 atm. But if you think my explantion is possibly worthwhile, such data would be useful... On close examination, there are 1 or 2 points in the 0-1 atm region in the '94 paper's figure, and a curved line is drawn through a couple of them for the Pd filings curve, so perhaps some signal response may actually be present. We still need to see the initial Pd mass loading data, and a full range calibration of the sensor (or at least some text saying it was done and what the results were). > So the plotted plateau > pressure remains constant to the beta phase condition. > Yes, until the beta phase takes up the entire solid. {snip} > > On the other hand if the > > authors had understood Pd chemistry, we probably never would have > > heard of the 'spillover effect'. > > This seems an unwarranted comment about A&Z's competency. > I don't think it's unwarrented. It may be stark, but I believe it to be true. > > A&Z try to use the observed internal pressure and Sieverts' Law to > > postulate some excessive loading. However, that is a strawman set up > > by A&Z, and it is incorrect. Sieverts' Law is for dilute D in Pd, > > i.e. <0.05 D/Pd ratio. At 1 atm pressure, D/Pd is near .6-.7, and > > Sieverts' Law has long ago ceased to be relevant. The 'extended' > > Sieverts' Law might be appropriate, but that is just an empirical > > correlation anyway, with no theoretical basis per se, so I would > > expect to see some deviation from the actual behavior anyway, > > particularly if the data range doesn't correspond exactly to the data > > range used to derive the correlation constant(s). > > A&Z state Sievert's Law in quotes, suggesting that they are not applying rigor here, but continuing their argument for the better performance of their Ds cathode. > In the cation to Figure 7, they talk about the observed pressure being far, far less than the 100,000 atm. predicted. They say that the expanded Sieverts' Law controls, then refer in the next sentence to 'Sieverts' Law' without the 'expanded'. They list both mathematical equations in Fig. 7B. Sieverts' Law is not applicable in this case. My information suggests the 'expanded' form is just an empirical correlation. The computational results are used to support the concept that something extremely different is happening inside their DS cathode. In fact they state that when the D concentration in the cathode wall is 90% (which I take to mean D/Pd=.9), the D concentration in the Pd black is 100% (D/Pd = 1.0). My point is that that is wrong. The Pd black will load equivalently to the cathode wall, and there are real data from gas loading experiments showing H/M values nearing 1.0 with about 10-12,000 atm overpressure (in the reference text I quoted). > > To repeat the conclusion from my original note, there is an > > equilibrium between the Pd cathode walls and the Pd black, and both > > are loaded equivalently. The DS cathode is an interesting way to gas load Pd black, nothing more. > > This is a useful and informative commentary. You seem to say that the > increased 'latency' time with decreasing particle size in Fig. 7 can be attributed to an assumption that more Pd-black of smaller particle size can be packed into the capsule than with a larger particle size, and that in each case this is what A&Z did. > Make sure you realize that I said 'could'. My objection here could immediately be disposed by the actual data if available. The other very real possibility (which could be present in the A&Z data _along with_ the mass effect) is absorbtion/desorbtion kinetic rate differences arising from surface area effects and from interference of possible impurities. This could well explain the time scale differences between the '94 and '97 data. More on this below in context. > Let's take a closer look. The particles range from 2,000 u to 0.4 u. If they were spherical in each case, there would be gaps between the particles as illustrated schematically in Fig.. With full packing, the ratio of mass to gas is independent of the p article size until the particle sizes become an appreciable fraction of the capsule diameter. Other sources suggest this is about 1 cm (10,000 u) so there is less mass of Pd-black with 2,000 u beads than with 0.4 u beads. > This isn't quite clear to me. I would appreciate it if you could point me to the references you are using here, because it seems that you are rejecting my physical picture analogy. > The 'latency' time for 2000 u and 850 u beads is about the same, and > approximately doubles for the 0.4 u 'beads'. It seems reasonable that going from 2000 to 850 u beads would increase the mass of Pd-black in the capsule, but the total mass would not increase greatly with smaller > particles. Indeed, since the photomicrographs of photo (a) on p40 suggest cubic crystals, the actual packing density is uncertain. This photo indicates a particle size of 0.04 u, whereas Fig. 7 goes only to 0.4 u. This difference is unexplained, and ma y well apply to different tests. > > What is very different with the decreasing particle size is the > surface/mass ratio, which becomes much greater at 0.4 u as compared with 2000 u. > > A&Z make the point that with the large surface area of the loading can be rapid and complete. Kirk makes the interesting point that fracturing of hyrdrated metals can reduce the size to a point where the particle can withstand the loading stress. The 0. 4 u particles would seem to already be in that range. > Mike raises several good points here. Perhaps some experimental details will help. All metal hydrides seem to exhibit this decrepitation (shattering leading to average particle size reduction). The typical average size for a fully decrepitatied hydride is about 40 nanometers, or .04 microns. (No, I am NOT using the number from A&Zs paper. A&Zs observation is for me an independent confirmation of this phenomemon.) Thus the crystals shown in the SEM photo would appear to be fully decrepitatied. However, this usually takes a few load/unload cycles to achieve, at least when using low pressure loading to H/M of <.7. Figure 9 shows periods where the electrolysis was halted and the pressure decreased. Thus we clearly have load/unload cycles that would decrepitate the Pd. The extremely high loading may well accelerate the process also. While I have seen studies of Pd/H chemsitry through the first few cycles, I don't recall any where the >.85 loading regime was used. So, important missing details are where and how the Pd powders were obtained, loaded/unloaded, and prepared for analysis. Likewise, comparative gas absorbtion data may not be available. If A&Z would document their experimental protocols, that alone would be worth a paper or two. In any case, the 0.4 micron particle size powder is still capable of an approximate 10x size reduction. Here's an important point too. Even the 'non-deuterated' sample is fully decrepitated. I would say it has seen a few load/unload cycles, probably at the manufacturers. The squarish faces noted by A&Z are typical of fresh cleaved surfaces formed during fracture. We need to know the details about each and every sample/figure in the paper. There are inconsistencies that make it imperative. The other thing to note is that the kinetics of loading are quite variable on the first load/unload cycle. That is why I noted the initial likely assumption about a typo on the Figure axes between the '94 paper and the '97 paper might not be correct. If the materials used for the '97 paper was significantly contaminated or had been produced by a different manufacturing process, it is possible that the loading rates could be that different. This of course makes it difficult to trust single runs as being decisive. I would need to see all the experimental details before I could make any further conclusions. I have been tinkering (so far unsuccessfully) with how to calculate the theoretical void space for spherical particles of different base sizes packed into a fixed volume. The most efficient packing is either fcc or hcp, and both have a theoretical void space of 26% of the unit cell. As the base particle size increases, the absolute size of the void space increases, but the number of unit cells packed into a fixed volume decreases. Do they cancel out or not? I have another physical analogy which makes me think not. If I were to fill a box with bowling balls, I could pour sand into the box and it would fill the voids between the balls. Now imagine the bowling balls hydride and decrepitate. They are held in place by the sand so the space occupied by them doesn't change. In the A&Z DS cathode, packing the inner volume full of 2 mm particles would leave voids of some smaller maximum diameter. Theoretically, one could then add fine hydridable 'sand' into the voids, thereby increasing the total mass loading in the cathode. After decrepitation, all the hydride would be approximately the same size. Again, this leads me to believe that one could pack more fine particles into a fixed volume. (In the real world, you don't have spherical particles, and the packing is never perfect. We actually measure a powder property called tap density with a device that holds a known weight of sample in a graduated cylinder, and taps the cylinder at the base with a metal donut placed around the cylinder. Tapping force and time are adjustable I think. We do this because tamping can pack the powders in more tightly as well.) So, anyone know what is wrong with my ideas here, or what is right? > What is not explained here is why the larger particles in Fig 7 show a > pressure rise sooner. Is it because there is less mass present? Or that the loading and phase transition only occurs at the surface, and much more slowly into the interior of the larger particles? As I noted, there are three ways to get D into the bulk. 1.) Adsorb D2, convert it to surface D, and absorb into the bulk. 2.) Populate the surface D by surface diffusion of D from the cathode wall, followed by absorbtion into the bulk. 3.) Populate bulk D states by bulk diffusion of D through cathode wall to particle contact points. I also pointed out I couldn't say which was predominant. Material scientists and chemical engineers tend to be the researchers who address these kinds of issues, and I am not familiar with the literature on the subject. I do note that H/D/T diffusion in Pd is 'fast' when compared to other bulk impurity atoms, but I couldn't say if it was faster than a gas loading mechanism. > We are talking about gas > pressure loading here, not electrolytically driven loading. So, I ask, > could it be that the small particle size is indeed conducive to rapid and complete loading of the available Pd, as compared with cathode structures used by other experimenters. In this respect, the A&Z cell shares features of the Patterson cell; large surface/mass ratio, and a physical structure (spherical metal film) adapted to withstanding the loading stresses. > Typically, this is correct. Smaller particles load faster, as long as their surfaces are not poisoned. This poisoning works in either the gas loading or electrolytic loading case as best as I can see from the literature. (Note what has happened here Mike. You have proposed that smaller particles load faster than big, and I agreed. So for a fixed total Pd mass, the correlation in Figure 7 is backwards.) You might want to look at my spf post in response to a Dick Blue comment. I talk a little about the A&Z-PPC relationship there. {snip} > What I have not seen, and would appreciate, is a cogent discussion of the maximum pressure obtainable in the empty capsule if the time period of measurement were extended. Here we deal only with the driving pressure of the electrolysis, which many autho rs from P&F forward have indicated can be very great indeed. Would such pressure alone rupture the vessel? Gas loading data says 10-12,000 atm. give loading of .95 to .99. Resistivty ratios obtained in that case seem to agree with those done by electrochemists, so I assume that the loading is comparable. The wall-gas equilibrium will thus establish at the 10-12,000 atm. At 14.7 psi/atm that's a lot fo psi. I think a vessel needs to be carefully designed to prevent leaks and ruptures. {snip} > > And this discourse is limited to the discussion of loading mechanisms of the Pd black. It does not touch on what happens when the loading reaches a critical level. Correct. Whether CF occurs or not here is not influenced by the loading mechanism here, in my opinion. Of course, it is still unclear to me if A&Z know that they are not doing anything different. Their paper states that they have reached anomalously high loading in the Pd black. {snip} > > > Clearly what I said is you have a pressure vessel that can fail here. The failure could go a couple of ways. First a simple split might form. That would release the contained D2 in a 'jet' which might well ignite.Thus you could have a simple pressu re release, or a hot flame lance coming out, depending on how much oxygen is around. > > Inside the aqueous electrolyte in a closed cell? > Worst case SWAG. Depends on all the assumptions you make about how the failure occurs. I view my 'flame lance' is just a big cavitation jet. {snip} > > > > There a few more comments that need to be made here. First, A&Z seem to be typical 'cold fusioneers'. By that I mean NO RELEVANT > > EXPERIMENTAL DETAILS were published. That seems to imply to me that > > A&Z feel they have some psuedo-godlike status that means we should > > simply accept their pronouncements as fact. Sorry, I don't do that. > > Instead I look at the chemistry and physics to the limit of my > > ability, and evaluate the quality of the work. However, it is true > > that no experimental details is 'an automatic 7 point deduction from > > the maximum score of 10' on the quality scale. > > Fig 6 and 8 and the extensive discussion of the QEM measurements are not "relevant experimental details?" This discussion is about Fig 7 and > Appendix 1 of a 56 page paper. Kirk's grade may be appropriate for this small section of the report. It actually has no bearing on the validity or a proper grade on the report as a whole, and the lack of detail is appropriate since the main thrust is el sewhere. > Figure 6 is relevant to the functioning of their calorimeter, but doesn't relate to 'CF or no CF' in my opinion. Figures 8a and b seem pretty typical power plots. Figure 8c shows that the excess heat is limited to about 20-25% tops of the input. That's well within the usual 'recombination' error bars if faradaic efficieny is not accounted for. Technically, the experimental details I am referring to include how the experiment is conducted and sample identification details. We see only a comment that in fact different masses are being used. So yes, they are relevant, but just dealing with those two figures, we are still missing the major portion of what is the norm for experimental details. That trend holds throughout all the A&Z's papers I have looked at so far. > > Further point deductions occur when you realize that the vaunted > > Figure 7 has a significant error in it. In their 1994 paper, A&Z > > present an amazingly similar looking figure (Fig. 6). Similar until > > you note the X axis units. In 1997, A&Z were developing 10 atm > > pressures in about 30-45 hours of running. But in 1994 they did it > > in 30-45 MINUTES. Of course, the knee-jeck response is to postulate > > a typo. I will await the erratum on the '97 paper, since ample time > > has passed for one to appear on the '94 work, but apparently has not. (Am I wrong? Is there an erratum?) > > I don't have the 1994 paper. Fig 6 in my paper refers to cell calorimetery calibration. > Is the error real, or apparent? Let neither of us jump to hasty > conclusions. > Agreed. My continuing point is that A&Z don't tell us enough (even the second time around). {snip} > There is an important detail which may have escaped Kirk's notice, and Rich has not responded to it, even though I have pointed it out before. Since we are discussing Pd-black, the photomicrographs on p40 are important. The non-deuterated particles have a discrete crystalline appearance, apparently cubic. The deuterated (and processed) particles have a clear rounded appearance and apparent fusing of touching points. There is no evidence of fracturing. Since Pd melts at 1553 C, here is direct evidence of very high temperatures in the Pd black. > As to what can cause the observed necking, I can only speculate. High temperature is certainly one thing, but I don't think it takes the full melting point temperature. In short experiments, perhaps 50-75% of it might do. If you then leave it weeks or months, you might take even less heat. How much less? I don't know. The high loading could contribute. I believe the Pd lattice continues to swell, which means it might like to do a little flowing to minimize stress. How about impurities, could they assist? What is the residual atmosphere inside the cathode after loading? Could we be seeing the results of some chemistry mediated by residual gases, if present? I will gladly admit the SEM photos are intriguing. But let me throw a nasty knuckle ball here, just to remake my main point. How do you know the Pd shown didn't come out of the suppliers bottle that way? > Can this be produced by pressure loading, or does something else happen when the loading reaches a critical level? Loading D into Pd produces heat however you do it. But it is unlikely to be more than say a 50C rise (as a SWAG), and that would end when the loading did, and the heat would then diffuse out and away. If the necking occurs due to loading, it should happen really fast. I'd have to say again that the photo is highly interesting. > And if high temperatures are > produced by "something else", could this also contribute to the pressure rise seen in the capsule, and the data of Fig 9? Certainly, you would get a gas heating effect. At 10K atm, the Ideal Gas Law probably doesn't apply, but you would get some kind of pressure increase. > Is this not strong > evidence of a CF reaction, in addition to sustained production of > megajoules of energy and the appearance of He in the Pd black after > processing? > The pressure data of Figure 9 seems unexciting to me. About what you would expect I'd guess. The excess heat data are suceptible to the standard list of objections, especially since nothing but conceptual sketches are show. Do A&Z account for Faradaic Efficiency problems? The He data is very interesting too, but how do we know it wasn't in the original material? (T contamination?) Recall that the particle size of the 'non-deuterated' sample suggested to me that it had seen lots of hydrogen. The control experiments presented are just different enough in my view to leave the door open. Also, we all know that a rod of Pd is not the same as another rod where CF research is concerned. The same goes with powder. A&Z need to be very clear about what was studied when and where, and what data relates to what specific Pd. > There is denial and vehemence on both sides, and quasi and literal ad > hominem attacks from both sides. Kirk's statement "vehement denial that the evidence supporting CF is weak" is itself a form of the same denial of which he accuses some supporters. > You are correct. I get that way when people do it to me. I try to avoid doing it first, but I will defend myself when I feel it necessary. I hope you have noted in the preceeding that I have limited my comments to technical ones. I prefer to discuss the issues, one at a time, and when the discussion is done tote up the points for, against, and undetermined, and then to move on. However, what often happens is what you all saw with Jed Rothwell's response. Complete neglect of the topic, and bringing in ancillary issues to shift the focus away from the issue at hand (which I call misdirection). > In this debate, there is a strong tendency for what I have termed literary criticism. The vehement critic grades the paper on the punctuation and typographical errors, (Ouch, A&Z really bomb on that one don't they...sorry, I couldn't resist, it was a 'labor of love' to try reading that 56 pager...) > or the omission of details pertaining to his specialty, That is never a particularly valid critisism. It is valid to point out major omissions (such as the spillover effect issue), and it is likely that that will first arise from specialists in the area. Details are important when they can alter the conclusions. When a critic brings up details, that needs to be taken into account. > or the failure to address a problem with some other paper, Pointing out a sserious problem does lead to the expectation of having it addressed, either to reduce its 'seriousness level' or to tackle it head on. Some time should always be allowed for this, and if more work is required, two years is a good, average timeframe to consider. > all the time avoiding the main issue reported on. Deja vu... > Some vehement supporters deal > with personal, hands-on evidence of macroscopic effects: the room got hot, A reference to the PowerGen demo? Can you distinguish the difference between a 500watt vs. a 1500Watt heater at 20 feet in a room filled with people and equipped with an active ventillation system and a group of people with a vested interest telling you "Boy, it's getting hot in here isn't it."? > the plane took off, circled, and landed, etc. The Wright brothers I assume... > > I see the present A&Z paper as containing strong evidence supporting the association of excess heat and the appearance of 4He and 3He. Rich has raised one objection after another, mostly pertaining to conjectures about how the "noisy" data could have oc curred. Even Dieter Britz has conceded that the 'noise' band is less than the 'signal', and there is something real and interesting to study. > Probably recombination and contamination...we are in the <25% excess heat regime, and we have no information of Pd sources and history, and a SEM photo that suggests that might be important. > The discussion of loading, Pd-black, the DS cathode structure, possible explosions, are all beside the point of the paper. Arata has discussed the DS cathode for some time, I understand. He believes it has special advantages in obtaining rapid and compl ete loading. Kirk argues that it has no 'magical' properties. > > All this is a distraction from the main point of the paper, calorimetric evidence of sustained excess energy production associated with careful QEM measurements showing the production of nuclear ash, 4He and 3He, in the cathode material, and photomicrog raphic evidence of very high temperatures produced in the Pd back particles. > What we actually have is another paper where all the standard critisims of CF research are ignored. From that simple fact, it should be clear that the A&Z paper only helps to polarize the field. No issues are resolved, new issues are raised, and I am left dissatisfied... > {snip} -------------------------------------------------------------- On to Mr. Rothwell: Mr. Rothwell completely misrepresents the situation with regards to my participation in Vortex and the PPC discussions on spf and Vortex. Interestingly he dredges up an old post he made and tries to use it to discredit me, but what is so amusing is that he actually documents one of the points I was trying to get across back then, namely that the flow in the PowerGen demo was near or at zero in my opinion. It is safe to say that Mr. Rothwell and I hold diametrically opposed opinions, and neither of us shows much sign of relenting. I however do relent, and I point to the case Mr. Rothwell brings up, the Ergun equation question that John Logajan cleared up for me. I believe I showed there I could retreat with grace (I hope). I also admit to being dense in that case. It took several trys on John's part to get through, and I greatly appreciate that he kept at it. All it takes is a sound argument that I understand and can agree with, or at least not note serious flaws in. On a more general note, Mr. Rothwell thinks I should call up Prof. Arata and talk to him about all these missing details. Mr. Rothwell seems to be forgetting the original F&P situation. They made a press release, with no experimantal details in it. Scientists the world over wanted to replicate the work, but they either had to invent the techniques (and often ended up way off the F&P conditions), or they tried to call F&P like Mr. Rothwell suggests. Of course, according to the Taubes book, F&P got so many calls that took so long to answer (describing experiemnts is time consuming, especially without something written to work with) that they gave up answering the phone. Apparently Mr. Rothwell wants to subject Prof. Arata to the same phenomemon. When one writes up a scientific paper that you hope to publish in a respected journal (which is usually a peer-reviewed one), the norm is to include enough details in the paper that a skilled scientist could replicate it. This is because in fact what you are doing with a publication is two things, disseminating information and asking for replication to validate your work. When the experimental details are omitted, what you are doing is no different from a simple press release, and we all know what happens then. The application of the term 'sneer review', which is typically brought up just as soon as 'peer review' is mentioned, to denigrate the peer review process is simply an attempt to justify science by press release, or maybe more correctly science by black magic. The polywater case is a good example. Some researchers found some anomalies. Several other people replicated their work. Conferences were held where issues were openly discussed. Eventually, the anomaly was traced down to contamination from a previously unrecognized source. After that most people quit talking about polywater. The whole scientific review process worked reasonably well in that case, with the issue essentially being resolved after adequate time. In the CF case though, there seems to be no incorporation of discussions and critiques into ongoing research. Instead new things are tried and old problems remain unresolved. 'Dissidents' are barred from (or perhaps 'not invited' to) conferences, and ad hominem becomes the rule. Before I can wholeheartedly get behind CF, I need to see some issue resolution. To varying amounts, I see almost none of that in any active CF related research. Without the desire to resolve issues, the field degrads into armed camps, and no science gets done. [End of Shanahan post] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 21:21:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28445; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:16:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:16:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34B5A510.1813 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:18:24 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Carrell: 1994 Arata report References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_HUb2.0.Ny6.rARjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: A&Z 1994-1997 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:42:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:39:37 -0500 From: "Mike Carrell" To: I've had a chance to scan the translation of the 1994 A&Z paper and some related figures furnished by Akira Kawasaki. [aki ix.netcom.com] It makes clear that the 1997 paper discussed at length on vortex is the capstone of an investigation spanning many years. As such, the 1997 paper summarized but did not detail previous work which was reported in more detail in the 1994 paper forwarded by Akira Kawasaki. The package also includes an illustration from a published paper cited by Kirk Shanahan, with additional comments which clarify its relationship to the 1997 paper. The additional paper fills in details of the calorimetry, repeatability, and the loading advantages of the DS cathode structure, which are briefly summarized in the 1997 paper. The bulk of that paper is filled with the QMS data showing the presence of nuclear ash (4He and 3He), and a discussion of the "latticequake" mechanism as a candidate for the LENR. Rich Murray has a copy of the same information. I hope he studies it carefully, as I will. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 21:53:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00164; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:46:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:46:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34B5AC07.1266 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:48:07 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Chubb: Bosons In, Bosons Out? [Arata & Zhang] References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A510.1813@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xdUPY1.0.P2.5dRjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: bosons in bosons out....self-consistency, and presence of H Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:52:06 -0500 From:Scott Chubb To: blue pilot.msu.edu, rmforall@earthlink.net Dear Dick, The "bosons in and bosons out" rule applies only when to a large extent, the input ("bosons in") consists largely of proton neutron pairs (e.g. deuterons). In many cases, this rule is consistent with the experimental situation: i.e., predominant input reactants have come for electrolysis of D2O through the route D2O->D[+] + OD[-] and with residual OD[-] being generated by LiOD->Li[+] + OD[-]. In Arata's situation, however, LiOH (as opposed to LiOD) was used to facilitate electrolysis. Because LiOH subsequently may decay, the H that is present in the LiOH may also become involved in subsequent reactions. Cheers, SCOTT From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 23:31:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12657; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:16:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:16:29 -0800 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zAfJt.0.g53.AxSjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: At 10:57 AM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] >> For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum >>"jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has >> to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use >>the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the >>relation having to do with `energy conservation': > >>eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) >> > I don't understand how E = hv relates in any way to quantization of > energy. Could you explain that? > Horace Heffner According to Planck's theory , the energy E of a quantum ,or elemental unit of radiant energy is in direct proportion to the frequency v of the radiation , Thus : E = hv in which h is the constant of the direct proportion , the Planck constant . The quantum of radiant energy hv is also called a photon . Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 8 23:36:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09892; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:25:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:25:15 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:24:33 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"j6oB6.0.UQ2.Q3Tjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - > 1] If the effect is magnetic at one meter > and the effect is 2% ... and the effect is 2% > at 2 meters.... how is this going to fit? Piss poorly, but we've really got nothing here. I should have expanded on where I was coming from on this before in the thread, but I tend to prattle on too much so I try to trim it. But here goes. I read the comment somewhere (not here) that maybe the Tampere result was due to an "unknown electromagnetic effect". I got a kick out of that, because I interpreted it as the skeptopathic gymnastic act of re-writing the physics of fairly well-known and described pehnomena in order to avoid confronting the monstrosity that maybe somebody just modified gravity with a benchtop device. Then I got to thinking about that in terms of how much stuff seems to have slipped through the EM cracks, all that stuff getting discussed here about aether, FTL, scalar, Hooper fields, etc. etc., and suddenly it doesn't seem like such a far fetched idea any more. What we're looking for is really a column of effect that's unshieldable and doesn't diverge much. The 'unshieldable' part is claimed for scalar and the Hooper effect, and the non-divergence might be accomodated by a high frequency involved with that particular source if not an inherent property of that sort of energy. In my original posting, the Frolov comments were about *unshieldable* electromagnetism. If it can thumb its nose at a Faraday cage, perhaps it could go through the roof in a column as well? I wasn't making the assumption that is was only magnetic. NASA *was* able to shield something out in their experiment. But was it columnar? Did they even look? Did Gene put steel plates over his Dewar? It's an experimental mismatch. The point of all this is to get to some hardware that can duplicate the column of effect. Maybe some of these notions obout unshieldable EM effects like the Hooper coils point in that direction, towards something easier to build. Even NASA is having a hard time replicating Tampere. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 01:44:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28383; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:36:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:36:24 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:39:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"xPaKb1.0.Px6.M-Ujq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:17 PM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > >At 10:57 AM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >[snip] > >>> For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum >>>"jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has >>> to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use >>>the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the >>>relation having to do with `energy conservation': >> >>>eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) >>> > > >> I don't understand how E = hv relates in any way to quantization of >> energy. Could you explain that? > >> Horace Heffner > > According to Planck's theory , the energy E of a quantum ,or elemental > unit of radiant energy is in direct proportion to the frequency v of > the radiation , Thus : > > E = hv > > in which h is the constant of the direct proportion , the Planck > constant . The quantum of radiant energy hv is also called a photon . > > Jim O. The quantity v (i.e. nu) is a frequency, and is not an integer, nor is it necessarily any multiple of an integer, so neither is E. For hv = E to quantized, it must be so for some other reason, true? I just don't see how this equation relates to that reason, or how incorporating it in a calculation somehow quantizes the calculation. If there is no value that is necessarily an integer, then there is no quantum. The quantized nature of the photon energy comes from restrictions on v imposed by the structure of atoms, or fine structure, but Plank's equation E = hv doesn't provide any insight or direct relation to that, does it? It is true that h/2Pi is the quanta of particle angular momentum, but in E = hv, h it is only a constant. This does not place any barriers on v, which is a real number, thus E is a real number. If there is any quantizing it seems to be external to E = hv. I don't see any inherent limitations on the energy a photon can possess. It is true that Plank postulated the energy of an oscillator can only have quantized values E = (n)hv, or we can use the more modern E = (n+1/2)hv, with n an integer. However, if v is still a real value, not confined by orbital mechanics, etc., it appears to me that E is no longer quantized. The quantization of E, the setting of photon energy, depends on the selection and fixing of the frequency. Am I missing something here? Do I have something messed up in my understanding? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 01:58:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29964; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:50:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:50:18 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:53:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"HACQ2.0.1K7.PBVjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:30 PM 1/8/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >I never intended to get into a discussion regarding the behavior of water, >and didn't intend to imply any precision in my statements about waters >behavior under extreme compression. Oh, OK. >As far as the compression, remember that you are dealing with volumes, so if >you compress water to 10 percent of the original size, you have only reduced >molecular spacings to 46 percent, ie cube root of 0.10. [snip] X^3/x^3 = 10 X/x = 10^(1/3) = 2.154 x/X = 1/2.154 = 0.464 = 46.4 percent OK, I see what happened, I used the reciprocal - the bigger atoms are 215.4 percent larger than the compressed atoms. Still looks infeasible though. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 03:17:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01525; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:14:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:14:45 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 04:10:04 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1cef$23154580$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rPE8Q3.0.lN.YQWjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 6:16 PM Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 >At 6:30 PM 1/8/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >> >>Yet you will ignore the VERY CRUX of the BLP >>Hydrino Concept, With TENS of WATTS of Photons >>Creating Particles MILLIONS OF TIMES LIGHTER >>AND LARGER THAN H2 MOLECULES? > > >Could you explain that Fred? I must have missed something on the BLP web >pages. Are they saying the hydrino is lighter and larger than hydrogen? No,not they. I was trying not to be self-serving while referring to the Light Lepton-Hydrino-Electrino Hypothesis. :-( >Are you talking about your light lepton theory? Guilty. The mass of a Coupled LL Pair should be about 1.0 ev/c^2 = 1.77E-36 kg as opposed to 3.3E-27 kg, ie., about 2 billion times lighter than H2. The radius should be k*q^2/1.6E-19 = 3.0E-9 meters or about 10.0 times the radius of the H2 molecules. About enough to account for the anomalous pressure rise in Runs 1 and 2 attributed to other causes, when they literally fill the volume of the test chamber with inert particles? At 30 watts (30 joule/sec) There should be about 1.25E20 photons of 1.5 ev average energy coming off the filament each second . At 0.1% LL generation efficiency, creating about 1.2E17 coupled-inert LL pairs/second? Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 06:18:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24253; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:15:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199801091412.JAA02318 mercury.mv.net> Subject: N-RAYS -- THE UNTOLD STORY Date: Fri, 9 Jan 98 09:15:09 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"8gSCF3.0.tw5.g3Zjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: VORTEXIANS: This note comes from Dr. Marcello Truzzi. It give insight into how history can be rewritten and used as a cartoon of reality. Gene ******* I realize this may not be of direct interest to you. Someone wrote into the Skeptix line and asked for information about the "French physics fare" about N-Rays. I wrote the following response and thought you might find the references useful to have in one place, too. So, I am sending you this copy of my posting to Skeptix. If of no interest to you, just use the delete button. -- Marcello This is in response to your request for information on the N-Rays affair. The most well known version of the story is probably in William Seabrook's 1941 book DOCTOR WOOD, MODERN WIZARD OF THE LABORATORY: A BIOGRAPHY OF ROBERT W. WOOD. (Many skeptics seem not to have noticed Seabrook was the author of other books like WITCHCRAFT; ITS POWER IN THE WORLD TODAY.) The "standard" academic papers in English on the N-Ray episodes are: Irving M. Klotz, "The N-Rays Affair," SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, May 1980, 168-175 (with references on p. 186). Mary Jo Nye, "N-Rays: An Episode in the History and Psychology of Science," HISTORICAL STUDIES IN THE PHYSICAL SCIENCES. Vol. 1, No. 1 (1981), 121-156. Also noteworthy are: Robert T. Lagemann, "New Light on Old Rays: N Rays," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICS, Vol 45, No. 3 (March 1977), 281-284. Spencer Weart, "A Little More Light on N Rays," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICS, Vol. 46, No. 3 (March 1978), 306. There are, of course, other many skeptical writings on the case, but most are derivative from the above. However the important revisionist piece on this episode, which most skeptics seem unaware of but which should now be indispensible reading since (though it does not defend Blondlot or N-Rays) clearly demonstrates that Wood misrepesented his "exposure," is the excellent and fully skeptical study: Malcolm Ashmore, "The Theater of the Blind: Starring a Promethean Prankster, a Phoney Phenomenon, a Prism, a Pocket, and a Piece of Wood," SOCIAL STUDIES OF SCIENCE, Vol. 23, 1983, 67-106. Ashmore's analysis, which I find convincing, includes a pretty comprehensive bibliography for those who want more stuff on this episode. I probably should also mention that (1) Blondlot "responded" to his critics via his little known book (translated into English by J. Garcin): 'N' RAYS: A COLLECTION OF PAPERS COMMUNICATED TO THE ACADEMY OF SCIENCES WITH ADDITIONAL NOTES AND INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF PHOSPHORESCENT SCREENS (New York: Longmans, Green & Co., 1905). And (2) positive independent replications of his experiments were conducted and published in France (see Lagemann, above), but these have been mostly ignored after Wood discredited (but seems not to have really disproved) Blondlot's work via Wood's now (in)famous letter to NATURE of Sept. 29, 1904. Hope this helps. As you will see from the Ashmore piece, the "French farce" was aslso American and British. -- Marcello Truzzi From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 06:22:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24171; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:14:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:14:46 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:09:47 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Arata uses closed cell Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801090912_MC2-2EA6-154E compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"wiUPE3.0.Wv5.L3Zjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:kirk.shanahan srs.gov; >INTERNET:rmforall@earthlink.net Kirk Shanahan writes: Figure 8c shows that the excess heat is limited to about 20-25% tops of the input. That's well within the usual 'recombination' error bars if faradaic efficieny is not accounted for. The cell is closed. 100% recombination occurs within it if. If it did not, the cell would explode. Murray made this same error. In other papers, which Shanahan evidently did not read, excess much greater than 25% of input power is shown. In some cases input is zero and excess continues in heat after death beyond levels that can be accounted for by degassing. Mr. Rothwell completely misrepresents the situation with regards to my participation in Vortex and the PPC discussions on spf and Vortex. Interestingly he dredges up an old post he made and tries to use it to discredit me , but what is so amusing is that he actually documents one of the points I was trying to get across back then, namely that the flow in the PowerGen demo was near or at zero in my opinion. The post contains a long list of specific reasons demonstrating that the flow rate at PowerGen could not have been 0.21 ml per minute. This proves that Shanahan's opinion is incorrect. He never responded to this post. It does not matter how old the post is or how many time I dredge it up: facts are facts. You could not possibly record a Delta T as large as 8 to 16 degrees with such a slow flow rate. You could not see the bubbles move and hear the water flow into the reservoir if the flow rate was only one drop per minute. Since Shanahan refuses to address the issues I raised, he loses by default. I myself have never ducked or evaded any debate. It is safe to say that Mr. Rothwell and I hold diametrically opposed opinions, and neither of us shows much sign of relenting. Yes, but I present copious evidence to support my opinions, whereas Shanahan shuffles and jives and cuts and runs. He should explain how a flow of one drop per minute made all the splashing and noise shown in the ABC video closup of the PowerGen cell. That video, shown on national television, proves beyond all doubt that he is wrong. I gave a dozen other reasons, but that alone suffices. On a more general note, Mr. Rothwell thinks I should call up Prof. Arata and talk to him about all these missing details. I do not need to do that. I have read his papers in English and Japanese, and spoken to him many times at conferences. I have no open questions about his work. Issues relating to the spillover theory and loading palladium black do not concern me, and they are mostly over my head. I am only interested in his calorimetry. In my judgement it is solid. Mr. Rothwell seems to be forgetting the original F&P situation. They made a press release, with no experimental details in it. Scientists the world over wanted to replicate the work, but they either had to invent the techniques (and often ended up way off the F&P conditions), or they tried to call F&P like Mr. Rothwell suggests. Of course, according to the Taubes book, F&P got so many calls that took so long to answer (describing experiments is time consuming, especially without something written to work with) that they gave up answering the phone. Apparently Mr. Rothwell wants to subject Prof. Arata to the same phenomemon. This is evasive nonsense. It is a red herring. The situation is nothing like it was in 1989. Arata's phone is not ringing off the hook. Zhang will probably answer any serious inquiry. Perhaps she will ignore inquiries from people like Murray and Shanahan, who pay so little attention that they fail to notice the cell is closed and recombination cannot be an issue. When one writes up a scientific paper that you hope to publish in a respected journal (which is usually a peer-reviewed one), the norm is to include enough details in the paper that a skilled scientist could replicate it. A skilled scientist could replicate Arata in a couple of years of hard work. A person who does not even notice what kind of calorimeter he uses could not. What we really have here is a new and unheard of standard for science, developed by the "skeptics" for cold fusion and cold fusion alone. They want more and more detail. They demand that every paper include a 200 page tutorial on electrochemistry. Papers about hot fusion do not contain step by step instructions for building tokamak reactors. Papers describing the top quark experiment does not include enough information to build Fermilab from scratch. Papers about new semiconductors do not recapitulate every bit of knowledge needed to make a semiconductor fabrication plant. Papers describing the cloning of an adult sheep do not teach people how to do basic biology. In the CF case though, there seems to be no incorporation of discussions and critiques into ongoing research. Instead new things are tried and old problems remain unresolved. What absurd nonsense! 'Dissidents' are barred from (or perhaps 'not invited' to) conferences, and ad hominem becomes the rule. Ah, a new one! Shanahan is circulating a brand new Big Lie. No doubt he made that one up today in a moment of inspiration. As far as I know, nobody has ever been barred from attending a CF conference except the "Half Moon" review, a DoE skeptic-fest (See the Hoffman book.) In reality, conferences are announced months in advance on Internet, and advertised in our magazine. Announcements reach the widest possible audience, given the funding available for this purpose, zero dollars. Well . . . I expect Richard Blue, Rich Murray and the others will soon be parroting this new damn nonsense. The accusations will fly! "Dissidents are barred from attending conferences!" they will say. When you try to pin them down and ask who has been barred, when it happened, or who barred them, they will evade the issue, They will change the subject, and accuse you of ad hominem attacks. Shanahan is not accusing any particular person or organization, and of course he will refuse to do so. He makes a blanket allegation about a whole group of people instead, which cannot be easily disproved. After all, somebody, somewhere may once have been barred from a CF conference. It's plausible; it might have happened; we cannot prove it did not happen. This is the new standard for "attack radio," and it is perfect for Internet. You circulate as fact any damn notion that pops into your head, as long as it seems plausible and you do not attack specific people by name. Rich Murray gets to circulate it hands off. No blame attaches, because he can say hey, it wasn't me, it was Shanahan. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 08:09:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05841; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:04:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:04:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:59:05 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: VORTEX Subject: Re: N-RAYS -- THE UNTOLD STORY In-Reply-To: <199801091412.JAA02318 mercury.mv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"CLITU2.0.BR1.Pgajq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I would like to make an N ray screen... any details from the papers? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 08:09:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06324; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:07:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:07:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34B64B51.52F3 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 11:07:45 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Jim O's FTL experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"p8sk63.0.XY1.Djajq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeeze, enough theory already! By now, I would hope that Jim Ostrowski sees that the concept of FTL communication has a lot of supportive interest on Vortex-l - also plenty of QUESTIONING review of his experimental details in trying to demonstrate the effect with his benchtop rig. There are many who won't believe FTL communication is possible because of several "good old" conventional physics concepts such as Maxwell's equations, etc. SO WHAT? Well meaning controversy keeps this list alive and, for me, educational. There seem to be plenty of interesting theories around that open "cracks" in conventional views of signal transmission and there is certainly incentive to use FTL signaling if possible. End of preamble. I was going to sit down and try to lay out a really crystal clear version of what I thought Jim O's FTL experiment was all about. Then, I glanced over the chapters on transmission lines and antennas (62 pages of fine print and complex diagrams) in my 1984 edition of "The radio amateur's handbook" (I had a newer version I had forgot about, Jim). When I was done rubbing my own face in my ignorance, I just about chucked the whole thing. Then, I thought I might as well have a go at the following: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS S ___________________________________________________ S S | | S S | SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS | S S | S S | S S | S <-------- total length of 75 ohm -------> S | S S | S 59/U coax line = about S | S S | S 75 feet. S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S The coax is dressed in a big S | S S | S loop so Jim can set up his S | S S | S signal generator and dual chan. S | S S | S scope plus various circuit S | S S | S components, in one local area S | S S | S on/near his shop work bench. S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S Dual Ch Scope S | S S | S ________________ S | S S | S | | | S | S S | SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS|chan 1 |chan 2 | BBBB ___ BBBB S A---------------------- | |SSSSSSSB | \_C1 B S | SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS| | ---------------X B S | S | | |SSSSSSSB | B GGGGG | GGGGG |_______|_______| B \ B G | G | B / R-1 B G ~ G _|_ B \ B G signal gen. G ///// B | B G | G Common "bench" BBBBBB|BBBBBBB GGGGGGG|GGGGGGG ground | | _|_ _|_ ///// ///// Common ground Common ground Note: The actual length of the line in the above version is a function of what Jim needs and what Jim has on hand or can reasonably obtain. OK, the above sketch, as far as I know, IS NOT JIM'S EXPERIMENT! What it is, is a STRAW MAN circuit that I might use to try show the FTL effect that Jim concludes he is seeing in his bench-top rig he has set up in his shop. (Please modify this description as required, Jim.) Jim's original experiment used an open loop of wire dressed around his building - both ends of the wire terminated on his benchtop so he could inject a signal at one end and monitor the output at the other end. Jim also provided various components like capacitors, inductors and resistors at the ends of the line for, I think, phase adjustments and signal pickup. (input Jim?) I had trouble understanding just what was going on in such an "open" loop when its length (about 175 feet Jim?) was a "messy" big chunk of the signal's (1 MHz) wavelength. So, I propose the above circuit as my idea of a shielded test path over which to test for FTL effects. In the above sketch, I put a signal generator (to be specified by others) in a box bordered by GGGGGGGG's for generator. I connected the sig. gen. to one end of a 75 foot length of 59/U 75 ohm coax with the shield drawn as the SSSSSSSSSS's. The coax has a tee connector to feed a signal to channel 1 of the scope. The other end of the coax is terminated in a workbox bordered with the BBBBBBBBBB's. The workbox has a second coax junction to feed a test point in the box to channel 2 of the scope. The workbox may also contain termination components such as capacitors, inductors, resistors etc. to try to produce the zero phase shift result Jim noted. I have tried to enclose the entire loop circuit in shielding via the instrument cases, the workbox, or the coax shield. I would locate the "business ends" of the coax lines as far appart as I could on the workbench just in case of some signal leakage. I would hope that the only way a signal could get from tap A near the signal generator to the test tap in the workbox would be by traversing the distance defined by the length of the coax line. Now, my questions are: 1. Jim! Have I screwed up the whole idea of your experiment?? I know that I left open the details of the workbox components and the test tap. No point in details unless you feel the workbox could provide the effect you seek (and have seen in your actual setup). 2. I would feel uneasy about zero-phase-shift results IF THE SIGNAL RESULTED IN A STANDING WAVE IN THE LINE. Could the line be loaded with the char. imp. (75 ohms) in the workbox and feed the voltage across this resistor to chan. 2? 3. Could we boost the signal frequency to, say, 10 MHz to make the line longer relative to the signal? It also seems to me that if STANDING WAVES on the line are an important part of the concept, then some encoding method is required so NEW information can be recognized at both ends of the line, whether FTL or not. ??? 4. Again, is this whole exercise on my part a dumb-assed move that would destroy the whole idea? To conclude, It seems to me that FTL success with your benchtop setup would be GREAT, but its failure would in no way mean FTL communications are impossible! At the end of his line (coax)----- I'm about to lay down my hammer on this job and go out to the garage to de-mothball my old ball lightning rig. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 08:27:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03373; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:15:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:15:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B64CFA.3241 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 11:14:50 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re: Jim O's FTL experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RIqjy1.0.cq.cqajq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WOOPS!! I really screwed up that post! I pasted part of the post from NotePad and the format went crazy! Frank (sorry) Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 08:26:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08064; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:16:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199801091616.LAA04636 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: Puthoff , jimostr@ctainforms.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:01:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FTL solutions to the Maxwell Equations Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <43480aa2.34b551fc aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"UkVb_1.0.vz1.urajq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 8 Jan 98 at 17:23, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Puthoff > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:23:55 EST > > FTL solutions from Maxwell's eqns are also covered in W. A. Rodrigues and > Jian-Yu Lu, "On the existence of undistorted progressive waves (UPWs) of > arbitrary speeds 0 Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 08:36:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05819; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:33:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:33:39 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980108220912.00a24428 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:32:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"JsVTR3.0.pQ1.V5bjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Anyway, I measured the actual group velocity both inside the waveguide >(where the LM wave was several times the speed of C ) and outside. >Neither showed anomaly.....[snip].....The leading >half cycle propagated as a TEM wave, which over the span of the next few >cycles would "ring up" to the standing wave condition; after which the >LM wave would be evident..... Nice experiment, Keith! Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 09:01:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14851; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:55:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:55:10 -0800 Message-Id: <34B6507C.4E43EAB2 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:29:48 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? References: <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C1QtU2.0.wd3.jPbjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] > > The point of all this is to get to some hardware that can duplicate the > column of effect. Maybe some of these notions obout unshieldable EM effects > like the Hooper coils point in that direction, towards something easier to > build. Even NASA is having a hard time replicating Tampere. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Rick, Last month, I invented (or reinvented) a a general hypothesis on gravity which is suitable to explain directional gravitational effects and results of gravity shielding experiments. Did you look of them? (I had no critics from the list, only get comments from people having own gravitational hypothesis ...) To answer the Tamper column shielding effect: As gravity is described (on my earlier postings) a sum of randomly oriented individual vectors, but loosing its directional property by the statistical reason and become omnidirectional like pressure which is omnidirectional and does not reflect individual motion of molecules, any source or destination of gravity loosing its uniform distribution of directions may provide directional anomalies. As SC disks are Bose-Einstein condensates and atoms are loosing th eir random motions and become coherently coupled, they satisfy the above condition to provide directional gravitational effects. Isn't a compact hypothesis? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 09:09:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10402; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:03:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:03:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B6582C.1334 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 12:02:36 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Jim O's FTL Experiment, CORRECTED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qWYCY2.0.OY2.WXbjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: VORTEX: IF THIS DOESN'T COME THORUGH OK, I GIVE UP --- Frank Stenger Jeeze, enough theory already! By now, I would hope that Jim Ostrowski sees that the concept of FTL communication has a lot of supportive interest on Vortex-l - also plenty of QUESTIONING review of his experimental details in trying to demonstrate the effect with his benchtop rig. There are many who won't believe FTL communication is possible because of several "good old" conventional physics concepts such as Maxwell's equations, etc. SO WHAT? Well meaning controversy keeps this list alive and, for me, educational. There seem to be plenty of interesting theories around that open "cracks" in conventional views of signal transmission and there is certainly incentive to use FTL signaling if possible. End of preamble. I was going to sit down and try to lay out a really crystal clear version of what I thought Jim O's FTL experiment was all about. Then, I glanced over the chapters on transmission lines and antennas (62 pages of fine print and complex diagrams) in my 1984 edition of "The radio amateur's handbook" (I had a newer version I had forgot about, Jim). When I was done rubbing my own face in my ignorance, I just about chucked the whole thing. Then, I thought I might as well have a go at the following: SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS S ___________________________________________________ S S | | S S | SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS | S S | S S | S S | S <-------- total length of 75 ohm -------> S | S S | S 59/U coax line = about S | S S | S 75 feet. S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S The coax is dressed in a big S | S S | S loop so Jim can set up his S | S S | S signal generator and dual chan. S | S S | S scope plus various circuit S | S S | S components, in one local area S | S S | S on/near his shop work bench. S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S S | S Dual Ch Scope S | S S | S ________________ S | S S | S | | | S | S S | SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS|chan 1 |chan 2 | BBBB ___ BBBB S A---------------------- | |SSSSSSSB | \_C1 B S | SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS| | ---------------X B S | S | | |SSSSSSSB | B GGGGG | GGGGG |_______|_______| B \ B G | G | B / R-1 B G ~ G _|_ B \ B G signal gen. G ///// B | B G | G Common "bench" BBBBBB|BBBBBBB GGGGGGG|GGGGGGG ground | | _|_ _|_ ///// ///// Common ground Common ground Note: The actual length of the line in the above version is a function of what Jim needs and what Jim has on hand or can reasonably obtain. OK, the above sketch, as far as I know, IS NOT JIM'S EXPERIMENT! What it is, is a STRAW MAN circuit that I might use to try show the FTL effect that Jim concludes he is seeing in his bench-top rig he has set up in his shop. (Please modify this description as required, Jim.) Jim's original experiment used an open loop of wire dressed around his building - both ends of the wire terminated on his benchtop so he could inject a signal at one end and monitor the output at the other end. Jim also provided various components like capacitors, inductors and resistors at the ends of the line for, I think, phase adjustments and signal pickup. (input Jim?) I had trouble understanding just what was going on in such an "open" loop when its length (about 175 feet Jim?) was a "messy" big chunk of the signal's (1 MHz) wavelength. So, I propose the above circuit as my idea of a shielded test path over which to test for FTL effects. In the above sketch, I put a signal> generator (to be specified by others) in a box bordered by GGGGGGGG's for generator. I connected the sig. gen. to one end of a 75 foot length of 59/U 75 ohm coax with the shield drawn as the SSSSSSSSSS's. The coax has a tee connector to feed a signal to channel 1 of the scope. The other end of the coax is terminated in a workbox bordered with the BBBBBBBBBB's. The workbox has a second coax junction to feed a test point in the box to channel 2 of the scope. The workbox may also contain termination components such as capacitors, inductors, resistors etc. to try to produce the zero phase shift result Jim noted. I have tried to enclose the entire loop circuit in shielding via the instrument cases, the workbox, or the coax shield. I would locate the "business ends" of the coax lines as far appart as I could on the workbench just in case of some signal leakage. I would hope that the only way a signal could get from tap A near the signal generator to the test tap in the workbox would be by traversing the distance defined by the length of the coax line. Now, my questions are: 1. Jim! Have I screwed up the whole idea of your experiment?? I know that I left open the details of the workbox components and the test tap. No point in details unless you feel the workbox could provide the effect you seek (and have seen in your actual setup). 2. I would feel uneasy about zero-phase-shift results IF THE SIGNAL RESULTED IN A STANDING WAVE IN THE LINE. Could the line be loaded with the char. imp. (75 ohms) in the workbox and feed the voltage across this resistor to chan. 2? 3. Could we boost the signal frequency to, say, 10 MHz to make the line longer relative to the signal? It also seems to me that if STANDING WAVES on the line are an important part of the concept, then some encoding method is required so NEW information can be recognized at both ends of the line, whether FTL or not. ??? 4. Again, is this whole exercise on my part a dumb-assed move that would destroy the whole idea? To conclude, It seems to me that FTL success with your benchtop setup would be GREAT, but its failure would in no way mean FTL communications are impossible! At the end of his line (coax)----- I'm about to lay down my hammer on this job and go out to the garage to de-mothball my old ball lightning rig. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 09:13:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11379; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:09:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:09:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B65971.2CF7 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 12:08:01 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: I APOLOGIZE - I GIVE UP!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SntpU1.0.in2.ccbjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: NUFF SAID ABOUT MY JIM O. FTL POST. The next sound you hear is my !#$ @%$ computer sailing across the room!! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 09:49:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16838; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:38:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:38:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B6528A.627B earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 10:38:34 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Rothwell: Shanahan recombination mistake re Arata; Murray comment References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B2CB0A.3A7F@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2by2J3.0.y64.z1cjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Arata uses closed cell Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:09:47 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex; >INTERNET:kirk.shanahan srs.gov; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Kirk Shanahan writes: Figure 8c shows that the excess heat is limited to about 20-25% tops of the input. That's well within the usual 'recombination' error bars if faradaic efficieny is not accounted for. The cell is closed. 100% recombination occurs within it if. If it did not, the cell would explode. Murray made this same error. In other papers, which Shanahan evidently did not read, excess much greater than 25% of input power is shown. In some cases input is zero and excess continues in heat after death beyond levels that can be accounted for by degassing. Mr. Rothwell completely misrepresents the situation with regards to my participation in Vortex and the PPC discussions on spf and Vortex. Interestingly he dredges up an old post he made and tries to use it to discredit me , but what is so amusing is that he actually documents one of the points I was trying to get across back then, namely that the flow in the PowerGen demo was near or at zero in my opinion. The post contains a long list of specific reasons demonstrating that the flow rate at PowerGen could not have been 0.21 ml per minute. This proves that Shanahan's opinion is incorrect. He never responded to this post. It does not matter how old the post is or how many time I dredge it up: facts are facts. You could not possibly record a Delta T as large as 8 to 16 degrees with such a slow flow rate. You could not see the bubbles move and hear the water flow into the reservoir if the flow rate was only one drop per minute. Since Shanahan refuses to address the issues I raised, he loses by default. I myself have never ducked or evaded any debate. It is safe to say that Mr. Rothwell and I hold diametrically opposed opinions, and neither of us shows much sign of relenting. Yes, but I present copious evidence to support my opinions, whereas Shanahan shuffles and jives and cuts and runs. He should explain how a flow of one drop per minute made all the splashing and noise shown in the ABC video closup of the PowerGen cell. That video, shown on national television, proves beyond all doubt that he is wrong. I gave a dozen other reasons, but that alone suffices. On a more general note, Mr. Rothwell thinks I should call up Prof. Arata and talk to him about all these missing details. I do not need to do that. I have read his papers in English and Japanese, and spoken to him many times at conferences. I have no open questions about his work. Issues relating to the spillover theory and loading palladium black do not concern me, and they are mostly over my head. I am only interested in his calorimetry. In my judgement it is solid. Mr. Rothwell seems to be forgetting the original F&P situation. They made a press release, with no experimental details in it. Scientists the world over wanted to replicate the work, but they either had to invent the techniques (and often ended up way off the F&P conditions), or they tried to call F&P like Mr. Rothwell suggests. Of course, according to the Taubes book, F&P got so many calls that took so long to answer (describing experiments is time consuming, especially without something written to work with) that they gave up answering the phone. Apparently Mr. Rothwell wants to subject Prof. Arata to the same phenomemon. This is evasive nonsense. It is a red herring. The situation is nothing like it was in 1989. Arata's phone is not ringing off the hook. Zhang will probably answer any serious inquiry. Perhaps she will ignore inquiries from people like Murray and Shanahan, who pay so little attention that they fail to notice the cell is closed and recombination cannot be an issue. When one writes up a scientific paper that you hope to publish in a respected journal (which is usually a peer-reviewed one), the norm is to include enough details in the paper that a skilled scientist could replicate it. A skilled scientist could replicate Arata in a couple of years of hard work. A person who does not even notice what kind of calorimeter he uses could not. What we really have here is a new and unheard of standard for science, developed by the "skeptics" for cold fusion and cold fusion alone. They want more and more detail. They demand that every paper include a 200 page tutorial on electrochemistry. Papers about hot fusion do not contain step by step instructions for building tokamak reactors. Papers describing the top quark experiment does not include enough information to build Fermilab from scratch. Papers about new semiconductors do not recapitulate every bit of knowledge needed to make a semiconductor fabrication plant. Papers describing the cloning of an adult sheep do not teach people how to do basic biology. In the CF case though, there seems to be no incorporation of discussions and critiques into ongoing research. Instead new things are tried and old problems remain unresolved. What absurd nonsense! 'Dissidents' are barred from (or perhaps 'not invited' to) conferences, and ad hominem becomes the rule. Ah, a new one! Shanahan is circulating a brand new Big Lie. No doubt he made that one up today in a moment of inspiration. As far as I know, nobody has ever been barred from attending a CF conference except the "Half Moon" review, a DoE skeptic-fest (See the Hoffman book.) In reality, conferences are announced months in advance on Internet, and advertised in our magazine. Announcements reach the widest possible audience, given the funding available for this purpose, zero dollars. Well . . . I expect Richard Blue, Rich Murray and the others will soon be parroting this new damn nonsense. The accusations will fly! "Dissidents are barred from attending conferences!" they will say. When you try to pin them down and ask who has been barred, when it happened, or who barred them, they will evade the issue, They will change the subject, and accuse you of ad hominem attacks. Shanahan is not accusing any particular person or organization, and of course he will refuse to do so. He makes a blanket allegation about a whole group of people instead, which cannot be easily disproved. After all, somebody, somewhere may once have been barred from a CF conference. It's plausible; it might have happened; we cannot prove it did not happen. This is the new standard for "attack radio," and it is perfect for Internet. You circulate as fact any damn notion that pops into your head, as long as it seems plausible and you do not attack specific people by name. Rich Murray gets to circulate it hands off. No blame attaches, because he can say hey, it wasn't me, it was Shanahan. - Jed Comment by Murray: Rothwell often reminds me of the immortal James Thurbur cartoon that shows a huge, fierce bearded swordsman lopping his wan opponent's head neatly off, exclaiming, "Touche!" Trained as a psychologist, it is interesting to me how inexorably projection works: people who are entangled in a polarized controversy almost invariably engage in the same confusion that they most vehemently denounce in others. We can cooperate to deactivate this ego resonance by being quick to acknowledge any of our own mistakes, equally quick to praise any accuracy and sanity in the other, and willing to add a huge dollup of humor to the dialog. The jury of peers will form their own judgements as to who is providing helpful, balanced, trustworthy testimony as to the real facts of the case at hand. I recall that Douglas Morrison posted that he was not invited to one or more cold fusion conferences, but attended anyway. Dennis Cravens said that Zhang speaks passable English, so calling or emailing her is feasible. Russ George [rgeorge #hooked.net]] has posted that he is communicating closely with Arata and Zhang. Does anyone know if any Japanese researchers are criticizing or attempting to verify the Arata & Zhang work? Doesn't Arata claim since 1994 that his double structure cathodes always work for months and years? Wouldn't it be easy to test some of them quickly in other labs? Has this been done? It's getting to be four years... Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 09:50:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23898; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:43:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:43:06 -0800 Message-ID: <34B65404.6276 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 10:44:52 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Blue: Bosons in, Bosons out, He in Arata cell? References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"w-suH.0.Kr5.e6cjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Re: Chubb: Bosons In, Bosons Out? [Arata & Zhang] Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:53:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A Blue" To: rmforall earthlink.net Scott, Your theories appear to by quite malleable, fitting whatever the current claim may be. However, I doubt that you can actually calculate anything that connects to reality, and you have failed to note certain significant implications of the Arata experiment. Arata claims that the nuclear reaction process takes place in the powdered Pd internal to the cathode. What you fail to recognize is the degree to which the Pd black is physically isolated from the electrolysis process. If there is anything we do know about the use of a Pd wall between the electrolyte and the Pd powder it is the fact that nothing other than hydrogen isotopes diffuse into the interior of the cathode. So if all your talk of possible roles for lithium is to mean very much you must be discrediting the central assertion that Arata makes regarding the place in which the reaction occurs. If the 3He and 4He are formed only within the depths of the Pd black the lithium and other ingredients of the electrolyte clearly have no role to play! In fact it is difficult to see that electrolysis plays any significant role in the Arata process other than to generate noise with which to confuse the calorimetric measurements. As I see it the Pd black is exposed to gaseous hydrogen, possibly at high pressure. The fact that the hydrogen gas is generated via electrolysis and filtered through Pd is largely irrelevant. The degree to which you are ready to accept a significant 3He production rate as something to be explained by p + d while 4He comes from d + d remains a mystery to me. I thought from our previous conversations that the boson symmetry of the reactants was essential to the process you claimed to explain. Of course I must remind you that your earlier "theories" were explaning an experimental result that is contradicted by the Arata claims. If Arata is correct in asserting that essentially no helium is released until the Pd is heated to high temperature something must be wrong with the experiments that found most of the helium evolving with the hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolyte. If Arata's 3He/4He ratio is correct then those who found essentially no 3He have a problem, don't they? Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 10:29:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23561; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:24:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:24:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:26:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: I APOLOGIZE - I GIVE UP!! Resent-Message-ID: <"IX0bz3.0.0m5.Djcjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:08 PM 1/9/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >NUFF SAID ABOUT MY JIM O. FTL POST. > >The next sound you hear is my !#$ @%$ computer sailing across the room!! > >Frank S. If it makes you feel better it came through great on my end. I think you need to set your line width wider or change to a uniformly spaced font or something. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 10:34:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00058; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:23:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:23:16 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:26:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"kWIZW3.0.p.Iicjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:29 PM 1/9/98, Hamdi Ucar wrote: [snip] > As SC disks are Bose-Einstein condensates and atoms are loosing their >random motions and become coherently coupled, they satisfy the above >condition to provide directional gravitational effects. [snip] This is not true is it? The coherence is only in conduction band electron pairs. Only the coupled pairs may be considered bosons. The other electrons and atomic nuclei, i.e. the atoms, are not coherent. This is not to say that there is no coupling, but if there is a coupling, the coupling is not full, but only a weak second order effect at best. If the SC were to become a B-E condensate it would consist wholly of bosons and thus lose its structural integrity. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 10:43:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25220; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:38:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:38:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:38:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"saQTO.0.v96.Twcjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:17 PM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > >At 10:57 AM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >[snip] > >>> For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum >>>"jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has >>> to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use >>>the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the >>>relation having to do with `energy conservation': >> >>>eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) >>> > > >> I don't understand how E = hv relates in any way to quantization of >> energy. Could you explain that? > >> Horace Heffner > > According to Planck's theory , the energy E of a quantum ,or elemental > unit of radiant energy is in direct proportion to the frequency v of > the radiation , Thus : > > E = hv > > in which h is the constant of the direct proportion , the Planck > constant . The quantum of radiant energy hv is also called a photon . > > Jim O. > The quantity v (i.e. nu) is a frequency, and is not an integer, nor is > it necessarily any multiple of an integer, so neither is E. For hv = E > to be quantized, it must be so for some other reason, true? Yes , but the reason can be derived from the above by placing the assumed restrictions on possible energy values that are imposed by the Bohr model of the atom- NOT THAT I PERSONALLY BELIEVE SUCH RESTRICTIONS NECESSARILY EXIST . Remember I said "for those WHO FIND IT NECESSARY to believe in the idea of quantum `jumps' between individual atoms" ... which was intended for those " particle" types who insist on modeling everything this way. I think the " reason " you seek can be derived like this : Since there is a restriction on the orbiting electron which is basic to Quantum theory , the electron is confined to those orbits in which the angular momentum equals a whole number multiplied by a constant . Put into an equation , this may be expressed as mvr = nh/2pi the whole number n represents the PRINCIPAL QUANTUM NUMBER (n=1,2,3,4 etc) . h is the Planck constant. When the equations governing the force exerted on the orbital electron and the quantum restriction are combined , the energies E of the electron in the various permitted orbits may be given by E = 2pi^2 me^4 / n^2 h^2 and the radii of the corresponding orbits may be given by r =(h^2/4pi me^2)n^2 When the known values of electronic charge are inserted , along with Planck's constant h , Integer spacing of the orbits is obtained. The electron normally travels the innermost orbit (n=1) , but it may be bumped , as we know to one of the other authenticated orbits by sufficiently severe collisions between normal atoms. Bohr proposed that an atom with it's electron in one of the outer orbits will emit light (to an absorber , in my opinion , in order for energy to be conserved) as the electron jumps back to an inner orbit. To have lifted the electron to an outer orbit in the first place took an expenditure of energy , therefore , there is a liberation of energy , and this takes the form of a "light wave" or "photon" with the QUANTIZED energy E1 - E2 = hv = E where E1 and E2 represent the energies of the outer and final orbits. This energy , having been thus QUANTIZED , is called a quantum . I just don't > see how this equation relates to that reason, or how incorporating it > in a calculation somehow quantizes the calculation. If there is no > value that is necessarily an integer, then there is no quantum. The > quantized nature of the photon energy comes from restrictions on v > imposed by the structure of atoms, or fine structure, but Plank's > equation E = hv doesn't provide any insight or direct relation to that, > does it? It depends on whether or not you believe in the Bohr model of the atom and the restrictions on possible energy values placed on interactions between so called atoms , which interactions are what the rest of my post was referring to. I read something once how Bohr browbeat poor Schroedinger into accepting the atomistic model for interacting matter while S was visiting B at B's residence. I see your point however . From all this it would seem that certain frequencies of radiation could not exist ! >It is true that h/2Pi is the quanta of particle angular momentum, but in E >= hv, h it is only a constant. This does not place any barriers on v, >which is a real number, thus E is a real number. If there is any >quantizing it seems to be external to E = hv. I don't see any inherent >limitations on the energy a photon can possess. >It is true that Plank postulated the energy of an oscillator can only have >quantized values E = (n)hv, or we can use the more modern E = (n+1/2)hv, >with n an integer. However, if v is still a real value, not confined by >orbital mechanics, etc., it appears to me that E is no longer quantized. >The quantization of E, the setting of photon energy, depends on the >selection and fixing of the frequency. > Am I missing something here? Do I have something messed up in my > understanding? Look , I don't necessarily buy the Bohr model , but it's what passes as dictum and has for decades. See....I'm trying to "Reach out" to the particle guys . Particle guys ...everything is waves , DON"T YOU GET IT ? Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 10:53:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04113; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:50:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:50:08 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:50:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199801091850.KAA32126 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"f9KZb3.0.A01.V5djq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >OK, I see what happened, I used the reciprocal - the bigger atoms are 215.4 >percent larger than the compressed atoms. Still looks infeasible though. > What looks infeasible??? The density in the sun's core, for hydrogen Oxygen plasma, is on the order of 100 g/cm^3. Or are you saying that if you have neutral matter at that density it is infeasible? Even so, if the temperature cools and the pressure remains, it seems to me that you could easily accomplish this. Heck, a neutron star is far more dense than that. But you are in a sort of atom soup, and the electrons may become less well defined as "belonging" to this or that atom. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 10:59:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27177; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:55:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:55:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:55:24 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL Experiment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"o9VDu3.0.Ye6.RAdjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > >Anyway, I measured the actual group velocity both inside the waveguide > >(where the LM wave was several times the speed of C ) and outside. > >Neither showed anomaly.....[snip].....The leading > >half cycle propagated as a TEM wave, which over the span of the next few > >cycles would "ring up" to the standing wave condition; after which the > >LM wave would be evident..... > > Nice experiment, Keith! Is it "nice" because it yielded the result you expected , where mine did not ? From what I could tell , Keith's experiment was a waveguide/transmission line , where signal delays many times longer than t=r/c are often evident . There is no doubt in my mind that such delays exist for transmission lines and waveguides configured the "normal" way. More on your other comments later , Michael . Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 11:03:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26354; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:50:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:50:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:44:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I APOLOGIZE - I GIVE UP!! In-Reply-To: <34B65971.2CF7 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4Gndp3.0.eR6.L5djq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > NUFF SAID ABOUT MY JIM O. FTL POST. > > The next sound you hear is my !#$ @%$ computer sailing across the room!! > > Frank S. Frank ..Frank ...take it easy ,man . It looked pretty good when I downloaded it , enough so that I don't think you should proceed because it doesn't look like my experiment. Ill get back to you later about the discrepancies. But if your computer has already sailed across the room , I guess this message is too late. Jim O. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 11:05:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06412; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:03:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:03:55 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <513063ca.34b67376 aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:59:01 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: yuck...yuck...yuck.... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"letUD.0.5a1.PIdjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for telling me how spamers get my address. I have on the on the bottom of my home page attached links to postmasters and TOSpam of a few sites. Now when then scan in my home page they can send their spam automatically to the postmaster. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 11:05:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05411; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:57:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:57:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34B66553.47E0 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 11:58:43 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, sejones@physics1.byu.edu, Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, jaeger@eneco-usa.com Subject: Britz: The Miles Rebuttal, still missing Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"OKX6l3.0.NK1.bCdjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!206.229.87.25!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz From: "d.b" Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: The Miles Rebuttal, still missing Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:12:49 +0100 Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk A few weeks ago it was stated in this group that the rebuttal by Mel Miles to the papers by the Jones group in J. Phys. Chem, now a few years ago, was being held up by Jones himself. He was said to insist on certain changes in Miles' MS. I could not believe that, for two reasons: 1. I know Steve Jones wouldn't act like that; in particular it was he and I who persuaded the Editor (El Sayed) to reconsider his stance and give Miles another go. 2. No editor would let an author who polemicised someone, to critique that person's rebuttal (he/she might let him/her see it, for a possible re-rebuttal, that's fairly common). Well, I have checked with Steve Jones, and I was right, he certainly is not holding the rebuttal up by any demands on his part, and wouldn't think of doing so. Whatever the reason for the holdup, it does therefore not lie with Steve Jones. -- Dieter Britz. Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db NB this ^^ means chemistry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 12:11:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07196; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:04:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:04:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: PHOTON ,THE QUANTUM ,BOHR ATOM THEORIES DESTROYED! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"76aaq.0.Gm1.BBejq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear vo The existance of an "infinitude" of "infinitesimal" increments of the frequencies of EM radiation invalidates (1) the photon , a product of the (2) Bohr atom , having electron orbitals dependent on (3) Quantum Theory . This is a nice day's work , for which Horace Hefner can take most of the credit (blame?) . Thanks Horace. What / who shall we "target" next? OOOOOOH! not poor Einstein !!!!! NAH ...! Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 12:34:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11440; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:27:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:27:17 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34B6507C.4E43EAB2 verisoft.com.tr> References: <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:26:18 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"nSyee2.0.fo2.WWejq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi - > Isn't a compact hypothesis? Sure it is. And such things can be useful and have their place. But I want more experimental data. Some of these other experiments may provide a practical route to getting that. Perhaps they are generating the same or a related effect. Personally, I'd rather be totally clueless, yet have a replicable column of unshiledable effect on my benchtop, rather than have a splendid hypothesis or theory and so little experimental evidence to check it with. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 12:37:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23696; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:26:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:26:22 -0800 Message-Id: <34B68202.7275AAE9 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:01:06 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dFrNg3.0.8o5.iVejq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 7:29 PM 1/9/98, Hamdi Ucar wrote: > [snip] > > As SC disks are Bose-Einstein condensates and atoms are loosing their > >random motions and become coherently coupled, they satisfy the above > >condition to provide directional gravitational effects. > [snip] > > This is not true is it? The coherence is only in conduction band electron > pairs. Only the coupled pairs may be considered bosons. The other > electrons and atomic nuclei, i.e. the atoms, are not coherent. This is not > to say that there is no coupling, but if there is a coupling, the coupling > is not full, but only a weak second order effect at best. If the SC were to > become a B-E condensate it would consist wholly of bosons and thus lose its > structural integrity. Maybe you are right (I need to study them). SC are not truly or fully BE condensates, but a minor de-randomization of their kinetics would be enough to exhibit measurable gravitational anomalies if gravity that we experience is residual of much more stron g forces mainly cancelled by each others. It sound good to me. :-) As my idea had not yet mathematically based, I could only talk generally on concept basis, and could not dive into real stuff. Sorry for the fuzziness. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 12:41:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26921; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:38:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:38:55 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:39:07 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"SLgIq3.0.Va6.Thejq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > The other electrons and atomic nuclei, i.e. > the atoms, are not coherent. The nuclei play a major role in superconduction and also in the gravity stuff in the theories. In Li's theory, the gyrations of the nuclei are quantized and coherent, and are the cause of her theoretical magnified distortions of space properties inside the lattice to the extent that an additional and detectable gravitational field might be found outside the SC. Also, as far as I'm able to understand it anyway, more conventional theory holds that the conducting Cooper pairs wouldn't have the ability to move like they do without having corresponding motions from the quantized cooperation of the lattice ions (nuclei). - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 12:49:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29174; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:45:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:45:29 -0800 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:41:07 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Rothwell: Shanahan recombination . . . Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801091544_MC2-2EC0-95DF compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ea1I_.0.b77.cnejq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Rich Murray comments: Rothwell often reminds me of the immortal James Thurbur [sic] cartoon that shows a huge, fierce bearded swordsman lopping his wan opponent's head neatly off, exclaiming, "Touche!" Thurber cartoon character are never fierce. That is why the editor assigned this cartoon to Thurber. It was originally drawn by a realistic artist. As Thurber explained, New Yorker editors are timid and afraid of bloodshed, so they asked him to draw it again, because with a Thurber figure you expect the opponent will pick his head up, put it back on his shoulders and say "no harm done!" Trained as a psychologist, it is interesting to me how inexorably projection works: people who are entangled in a polarized controversy almost invariably engage in the same confusion that they most vehemently denounce in others. There is no confusion. The PowerGen demo was shown on national television, on ABC. Anyone who glanced at it saw instantly see that the cooling water was vigorously pumped around, fast enough to be seen and heard as it splashed back into the reservoir. There is ABSOLUTELY no way it could be moving at the rate of 0.2 ml per minute, or even 100 ml per minute. Therefore Shanahan is wrong and I am right. Shanahan and Murray will deny this. They will obfuscate. They will say this is psychological and poor old Jed is "projecting" or only imagining he saw the water flowing. They will say anything to deny the evidence. When I point to this kind of physical proof, they will talk about my mental condition instead, or accuse me of ad hominem attacks. We can cooperate to deactivate this ego resonance by being quick to acknowledge any of our own mistakes, equally quick to praise any accuracy and sanity in the other, and willing to add a huge dollup of humor to the dialog. Or we can do what Shanahan and Murray do, and spread huge dollops of nonsense, confusion, errors, baseless allegations, disinformation, and Big Lies over the Internet. Cut and run from serious, quantitative debate, and repeat the same stupid mistakes about "recombination" in a closed cell over and over again. That will permanently hamstring the debate, as Steve Jones realized years ago. We never get past square one as long as the recombination bugaboo stays with us. Above all, we should never, ever admit we are wrong, even when ABC broadcasts a video that proves it beyond any doubt. Since Murray is trained as psychologist perhaps he can examine his own psyche and explain to us why he SPAMed Sabahan's errors to so many people. Tell us Rich: you must have realized Shanahan repeated your mistake. Why did you broadcast it again, to thousands of people? If you caught a dumb mistake in one of my postings, you would surely edit it out or comment on it. Why don't you take the time to examine and correct mistakes made by skeptics? Explain your double standard. Is this projection? Are you subconsciously trying to prove that you were right even though you earlier admitted you were wrong? Are you trying to embarrass Shanahan, to take the spotlight off yourself ("See, I am not the only one who thinks recombination is an issue in a closed cell!")? Or are you simply lazy, and you never read these messages before SPAMing them? Maybe you have an irrational compulsion to propagate mistakes and confuse people. I recall that Douglas Morrison posted that he was not invited to one or more cold fusion conferences, but attended anyway. If Morrison is going around telling people he is persecuted, blacklisted or barred from anything, he is lying. Nobody gets invited to a conference. Conferences are announced and you attend or not as you please. Not only as has Morrison been free to attend, he has even been invited to lecture. This is in spite of the fact the he has never performed an experiment, never read the literature or witnessed an experiment, and he makes astoundingly stupid mistakes about every aspect of CF. He has no standing in the field. He should not be allowed to lecture. If anything, CF conference organizers are too open minded, and too laid back. No other group of scientists would allow someone like Morrison to lecture. In a mainstream gathering he would be relegated to the poster sessions with the other fruitcakes. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 13:10:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17420; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:02:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:02:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:04:16 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"ytcch1.0.0G4.81fjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:38 AM 1/9/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: >> Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] > > The quantity v (i.e. nu) is a frequency, and is not an integer, nor is > > it necessarily any multiple of an integer, so neither is E. For hv = E > > to be quantized, it must be so for some other reason, true? > > Yes , but the reason can be derived from the above by placing the > assumed restrictions on possible energy values that are imposed by the > Bohr model of the atom- NOT THAT I PERSONALLY BELIEVE SUCH RESTRICTIONS > NECESSARILY EXIST . Remember I said "for those WHO FIND IT NECESSARY > to believe in the idea of quantum `jumps' between individual atoms" ... > which was intended for those " particle" types who insist on modeling > everything this way. > > I think the " reason " you seek can be derived like this : > > Since there is a restriction on the orbiting electron which is basic to > Quantum theory , the electron is confined to those orbits in which the > angular momentum equals a whole number multiplied by a constant . No, I think you missed my main point! I often have a difficult time communicating, so please bear with me. The above is the "reason" I have already discounted. I specifically said, in three different ways, the restrictions on v comes from the structure of atoms: At 12:39 AM 1/9/98, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >The quantized nature >of the photon energy comes from restrictions on v imposed by the structure >of atoms, or fine structure, but Plank's equation E = hv doesn't provide >any insight or direct relation to that, does it? [snip] > If there is any >quantizing it seems to be external to E = hv. I don't see any inherent >limitations on the energy a photon can possess. [snip] >However, if v is still a real value, not confined by >orbital mechanics, etc., it appears to me that E is no longer quantized. >The quantization of E, the setting of photon energy, depends on the >selection and fixing of the frequency. I understand that quantization is imposed on atomic states by the Bohr magneton, i.e. by quantized angular momentum. I am saying your FTL experiment, and radio waves in general, as well as cavity radiation and Bremsstrahlung, are not subject to the mechanics of the atom, thus v has a free non-quantized reign. This could all be dead wrong, due to reasons I can not see. There could be other quantizing influences, like the quantization of time or space, but it seems to me the linkage to the atom, if any, is remote. E = hv applies to radiation not emitted by an atom, but emitted by any charged particle, including conduction band electrons moving in an antenna, protons in near collision, etc. I don't see any quantizing influences there, so applying E = hv to your equations does not in any way impose or address quantization. To make sure there is no misunderstanding, let me say explicitly that I think this is *good for your other arguments* and supports what you have said. Let me refer to your original statement for clarity: At 10:57 AM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] > > Planck had earlier discovered the discontinuity of the energy > exchanged when "light" (various incoherent frequencies of EM radiation) > is transferred between interacting atoms of matter. Schrodinger's > contribution to the overall view was that the energy values could be > described as continuous , and not discrete , when a RESONANT (coherent, > single frequency) condition was met. In this view then ,it is the > energy and frequency TRANSFER BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL "ATOMS" that is > discrete, and not the energy values themselves. Yes the energy and therefore the frequency is discrete, provided it is an atom, i.e. orbital electron, that does the emitting, the transfer. (There are even some limitations on that as well I think, like those associated with Rydberg orbitals.) The important part of the point I want to make, provided my assumptions are correct, is that the motion of conduction band electrons seems to to fall outside that quantizing restriction. E = hv still applies, but does not in any way (that I can see) impose a quantizing restriction. > > Schrodinger's arguments can be summed up as follows: > > If v(e) is the frequency component of an electric charge distribution > at some initial time, and if v(e)' is it's frequency component after > the charge distribution has transferred this frequency to some other > mass, and if the corresponding frequency components of the absorbing > mass are v(a)' (after absorption) and v(a) (before absorption), then > the rule that relates the frequency transfer between coupled emitting > and absorbing resonating elements is: > > eq.2 v(e) - v(e)' = v(a)' - v(a) > > Note that the frequencies referred to are not associated with any single > particle of a system. They are rather the normal modes of oscillation of > a system taken as a whole. Yes, this goes beyond the definition of an atom, all the way up to "any resonant system." However, as I said about that: >It is true that Plank postulated the energy of an oscillator can only have >quantized values E = (n)hv, or we can use the more modern E = (n+1/2)hv, >with n an integer. However, if v is still a real value, not confined by >orbital mechanics, etc., it appears to me that E is no longer quantized. >The quantization of E, the setting of photon energy, depends on the >selection and fixing of the frequency. You go on to say: > > For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum > "jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has > to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use > the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the > relation having to do with `energy conservation': > > eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) > > The point here is that one need not postulate a fundamental atomistic > model for charged matter in order to formulate a complete theory of the > interaction of resonant (mutually coupled) systems.In fact, using > Schrodinger's model , one can reduce any material element to it's > predetermined properties of resistance , capacitance and inductance per > unit of mass to determine it's normal modes of electrical vibration > most conducive to energy transfer. Yes. It seems to me lots of the effects of radio and electronics lay outside the energy quantizing restrictions of atomic effects, because they are based on the motion of conduction band electrons. E = hv, or even E = (n+1/2)hv, is free to take on any real value of v, and thus any real value of E, in many cases. It seems (to me personally anyway) that pinning down this issue is important and fundamental to understanding both energy and limitations, or lack of limitations, on wave mechanics. Maybe someone knows of other quantizing limitations? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 13:14:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01441; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:07:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:07:22 -0800 Message-Id: <34B68C14.A40C8A14 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:44:04 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere s uperconductor effect? References: <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rSaNk1.0.MM.86fjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Hamdi - > > > Isn't a compact hypothesis? > > Sure it is. And such things can be useful and have their place. But I want > more experimental data. Some of these other experiments may provide a > practical route to getting that. Perhaps they are generating the same or a > related effect. > Yes, current experimental date is not sufficient to be conclusive for any hypothesis. But sometimes, a thinking model or hypothesis may be useful for guiding the experiment, for helping to what to looking for, or offering a method to improve the effect. > Personally, I'd rather be totally clueless, yet have a replicable column of > unshiledable effect on my benchtop, rather than have a splendid hypothesis > or theory and so little experimental evidence to check it with. This is not like the unconfirmable ether concepts or "recoiling theory" of Bearden. For example one can question the why the gravity modification column is vertically oriented, which can not explainable directly by the shielding concept of our current gra vity model (should be a shadow cone instead of a column). But if the gravity could be modeled as vector field, this may(?) provide a more acceptable explanation. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 13:16:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01623; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:07:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:07:36 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:10:54 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: PHOTON ,THE QUANTUM ,BOHR ATOM THEORIES DESTROYED! Resent-Message-ID: <"ctc4x1.0.CP.M6fjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:04 PM 1/9/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: >Dear vo > >The existance of an "infinitude" of "infinitesimal" increments of the >frequencies of EM radiation invalidates (1) the photon , a product of the >(2) Bohr atom , having electron orbitals dependent on (3) Quantum Theory . > >This is a nice day's work , for which Horace Hefner can take most of the >credit (blame?) . Thanks Horace. > >What / who shall we "target" next? OOOOOOH! not poor Einstein !!!!! > > >NAH ...! > >Jim O. Well, the above would be an extremely satisfying accomplishment! However, I don't know we have arrived there (yet.) I just posted more comments on the above, which have not cycled through yet. Anyway, since I am just learning this stuff, anything that improves my understanding is a big plus, and satisfying in itself. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 13:17:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18802; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:11:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:11:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:07:07 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Britz: The Miles Rebuttal, still missing Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801091609_MC2-2EC0-9745 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tFNn-3.0.ab4._9fjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:britz kemi.aau.dk; >INTERNET:miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp Dieter Britz assures us that Mr. Holier-than-thou Steve Jones would never think of pulling strings and filing bogus objections to hold up the Miles paper: Well, I have checked with Steve Jones, and I was right, he certainly is not holding the rebuttal up by any demands on his part, and wouldn't think of doing so. Whatever the reason for the holdup, it does therefore not lie with Steve Jones. Oh, deary me -- of course it can't be Jones. How could I ever imagine such a thing?! Even though he snuck the original article in without telling Miles, and he wrote all those letters he later denied writing, and he has been vigorously engaged in behind-the-scenes political shenanigans . . . we can take his word for it. Gee, I guess the paper is being held up by the Vatican. Or the Trilateral Commission. Or El Nino. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 13:29:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20777; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:22:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:22:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:24:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Lockyer snip... out Q?#3 Re: ZPE question for Hal Resent-Message-ID: <"TJ24p.0.Z45.uJfjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:50 AM 1/9/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>OK, I see what happened, I used the reciprocal - the bigger atoms are 215.4 >>percent larger than the compressed atoms. Still looks infeasible though. >> > >What looks infeasible??? The density in the sun's core, for hydrogen Oxygen >plasma, is on the order of 100 g/cm^3. Or are you saying that if you have >neutral matter at that density it is infeasible? > >Even so, if the temperature cools and the pressure remains, it seems to me >that you could easily accomplish this. Heck, a neutron star is far more >dense than that. But you are in a sort of atom soup, and the electrons may >become less well defined as "belonging" to this or that atom. > >Ross Tessien No, just still saying it looks infeasible for water compressed by 42 percent, to 10 g/cm^3, to still be water. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 13:56:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09632; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:49:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:49:39 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34B69B64.A88C4DDD ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:49:24 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: OFF TOPIC - In Mac They Trust Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Mjv7x.0.LM2.njfjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Wired News posted an article today relevant to a recent thread on vortex regarding technology trends: Just an FYI for those interested. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 14:20:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17904; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:14:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:14:25 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B6914E.6A383D27 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:06:22 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 2 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bWI3n2.0.gN4._4gjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, It's a good idea to establish a baseline without the KNO3. Whatever the container for the KNO3, it will probably influence the rate at which K+ ions are produced. This is the kind of information that is usually kept secret in chemical process development. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 14:21:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19054; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:18:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:18:47 -0800 Message-ID: <34B6C7A9.2F1C bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:58:17 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FhxhC1.0.Xf4.59gjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > The nuclei play a major role in superconduction and also in the gravity > stuff in the theories. In Li's theory, the gyrations of the nuclei are > quantized and coherent, and are the cause of her theoretical magnified > distortions of space properties inside the lattice to the extent that an > additional and detectable gravitational field might be found outside the SC. True! I see you've come around to believing it to be the ion motion which is critical to Li's theory. Her theory also states that this ionic motion around the lattice points continues even at absolute zero to avoid violation of uncertainty. If this is true, this ionic vortex must be tapping the ZPF much like the zero state electron orbit! > Also, as far as I'm able to understand it anyway, more conventional theory > holds that the conducting Cooper pairs wouldn't have the ability to move > like they do without having corresponding motions from the quantized > cooperation of the lattice ions (nuclei). It is interesting that Cooper pairs are alleged to be a spin 1 boson which, if I read Hawking correctly, should be an anti-graviton. :) Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 14:27:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00809; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:21:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:21:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Light Lepton "Aether"? Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:16:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1d4c$485e46e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"aOv5s1.0.XC.hBgjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Whilst indulging myself in speculation while Scott proves that Bound Light Lepton Pairs are being produced in his BLP experiment, I think that the Vacuum of Space is permeated with Bound Light Lepton Pairs. These would have no net spin and would NOT follow the gas laws. Being Billions of times less massive than H2, and about Ten Times as large, wouldn't create much Drag. :-) Also, if they are "flat circles" made from circularized length-only Superstrings they might account for the "pressure" on the Casimir Plates. Seems that Hydrogen and heat around 500 K that produces their progenitor photons is required. ZPE, CF, Sonoluminescence, Vortex Cavitation, Hydrinos, and Transmutations all in the same basket? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 14:46:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04778; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:43:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:43:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:37:10 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Blue: Bosons in, Bosons out . . . Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801091741_MC2-2EBD-6E57 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ftUKY.0.aA1.AWgjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote a few comments on this message which I either forgot to post, or my message disappeared. This is worth noting, so let me briefly reiterate. Blue said : If Arata is correct in asserting that essentially no helium is released until the Pd is heated to high temperature something must be wrong with the experiments that found most of the helium evolving with the hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolyte. In most CF experiments the reaction occurs at the cathode surface or near surface next to the electrolyte. The helium soon escapes into the electrolyte. Arata's reaction occurs deep inside the double structured cathode where the helium cannot easily escape. It is probably absorbed by the surrounding Pd black particles. CF does sometimes occur deeper in ordinary cathodes. You can tell where it occurred after the run by looking for damage and transmutations in the cathode metal. I am speculating, but I think these deeper reactions may explain why the Italian experiments with on-line helium detection systems sometimes see the heat begin, a delay, and then a burst of helium. Bockris found helium deep in the metal, where no helium could have penetrated from outside. He saw no helium in unused Pd samples. Miles said that he suspects that in same cases when cells produce less than the usual "commensurate" amount of helium, it is being locked in the cathode. Unfortunately, he said, it will probably gradually work its way out before he could get a chance to freeze the cathode, cut it up, and look for helium the way Bockris did. If Arata's 3He/4He ratio is correct then those who found essentially no 3He have a problem, don't they? No problem. The reaction produces different products depending on unknown control factors. Sometimes it produces 3He, sometimes tritium, sometimes massive transmutations. 4He appears to be produced by every cell. Perhaps it is the final product of different complex fission reaction chains. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 14:48:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04525; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:41:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:41:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B6A77D.2739 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:41:01 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I APOLOGIZE - I GIVE UP!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4yp851.0.a61.fUgjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > If it makes you feel better it came through great on my end. I think you > need to set your line width wider or change to a uniformly spaced font or > something. > Thanks, Horace - and all! I'm just suffering from post-remodeling trauma. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 15:05:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06249; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:01:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:01:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:50:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801092250.QAA20232 dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Unsubscribed after January 6th posting on Arata To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"_jqSQ3.0.9X1.Vmgjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: January 9, 1998 Well, shortly after my posting of the Arata paper translation notice, I was somehow unsubscribed from the Vortex. On thought, I knew this is easy to do by the subscriber and realized also by anybody else if so minded. Who knows what happened. A test transmission cleared up the puzzle and I am subscribed to the Vortex again. I have been sending out the paper and graphics in five e-mails with attachments since one e-mail is too large and takes too long to send and receive. The text is sent in original Wordperfect 6.1 and also in converted Word 7 format. All graphics are in GIF format. There are thirteen GIF files that include some from the Poster put up by Arata at the ICCF-6. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 16:12:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14186; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:04:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:06:28 -0900 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Resent-Message-ID: <"llvS91.0.YT3.whhjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:10 AM 1/9/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >The mass of a Coupled LL Pair should be about 1.0 ev/c^2 = 1.77E-36 >kg as opposed >to 3.3E-27 kg, ie., about 2 billion times lighter than H2. > >The radius should be k*q^2/1.6E-19 = 3.0E-9 meters or about 10.0 times the >radius of the H2 >molecules. About enough to account for the anomalous pressure rise in Runs 1 >and 2 attributed to other causes, when they literally >fill the volume of the test chamber with inert >particles? > >At 30 watts (30 joule/sec) There should be about 1.25E20 photons of 1.5 ev >average energy coming off the filament each second . At 0.1% LL generation >efficiency, creating about 1.2E17 coupled-inert LL pairs/second? Hey! At last! An easy means to prove light lepton production - by simply filling up space! By doing it on demand, i.e. random time intervals, leaks can then be eliminated as the cause of pressure increase. It should be possible to even build a LL equivalent to a steam engine, by enclosing the LL generator inside a piston, and placing the machine inside a vacuum chamber. It would be nice then to get the LL energy back by recycling the exhaust by self annihilating the LL pairs in the exhaust. If it would be possible to annihilate them while still in the piston, then the engine would have *two* power strokes per revolution. What would you call that, a one cycle engine? One and one stroke might be more apt. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 16:14:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25421; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:45:07 -0800 Message-ID: <34B6D2CD.4E9E bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:45:49 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: FTL Communications References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9o9gO2.0.5D6.nXgjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael J. Schaffer wrote: > I don't have much confidence in T.K. Ishii. Back in 1990 I was working on a > study of how one might convert sub-millimeter and far-IR radiation from a > fusion tokamak directly into useful electrical power. The big problem was > (and still is) the lack of a rectifying device that could handle a useful > level of power at such high frequencies. Ishii had a couple of published > papers purporting to show how low frequency power diodes could be > configured to work efficiently at microwave. I studied the papers. His > conclusions were derived from a grossly flawed analysis. > > I haven't seen "Transmit Radio Messages Faster Than Light," but as I said, > I don't have much confidence in him. Yeah, I searched www.nobel.com and didn't find his name as a recipient. :) I mailed out several more copies of the article to list members today; so, next week we can all pick it apart. Too bad Sparber didn't ask for a copy, it's full of mu(zero) and epsilon(zero), his favorite Greek letters. One member insisted on an email copy. I guess he didn't want to reveal his address. So I scanned it and I have a 2.0 Mbit .zip file which expands to five .tif files of the article. I can email Monday, if anyone wants it, over the company's T1 connection but it takes about 15 min. to d/l at 28.8 kpbs. The snail mail offer still stands. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 17:22:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA32648; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:17:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:17:51 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H4 decay? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:17:01 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34b9b6e7.155400951 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"T6dVe1.0.1-7.zmijq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:26:38 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >>I suspect that one may need to force the formation of 4H from 3H >>through bombardment with energetic neutrons. [snip] >I forgot to mention that this was taken from the *Thermal Neutron Reaction >Table* at the Brookhaven site. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner In that case it might be worth getting in touch with those who maintain the table. They may have included this reaction by mistake. If they have a different explanation, I would be most interested to hear it. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 17:51:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27766; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:45:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:45:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 20:38:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Not a thing ...Re: I APOLOGIZE - I GIVE UP!! In-Reply-To: <34B6A77D.2739 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Bx4Vd1.0.fn6.UAjjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Francis, Remember: The computer is digital ... stooopid .. On... OFF ... ON ... OFF... Whereas YOU, on the other hand are a smoothly continuous, infinitely variable, variable K log, ANALOG, and so thereby ELEGANT, fully real, human bean! J On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Horace Heffner wrote: > > > > If it makes you feel better it came through great on my end. I think you > > need to set your line width wider or change to a uniformly spaced font or > > something. > > > > Thanks, Horace - and all! I'm just suffering from post-remodeling > trauma. > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 9 19:23:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12730; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:17:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:17:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B6E7FD.7A77 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 22:16:13 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Not a thing ...Re: I APOLOGIZE - I GIVE UP!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vPuY83.0.o63.hWkjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > The computer is digital ... stooopid .. On... OFF ... ON ... OFF... > > Whereas YOU, on the other hand are a smoothly continuous, > infinitely variable, variable K log, ANALOG, and so thereby ELEGANT, > fully real, human bean! > Damn, John! Now you got me feeling all mushy. And just after we got back from seeing "Good Will Hunting" too. Good movie! If you're into math and women and people in general - it'll leave you with a good feeling. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 00:43:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14709; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:40:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:40:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:42:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H4 decay? Resent-Message-ID: <"MWJFp2.0.kb3.jFpjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:17 PM 1/9/98, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:26:38 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >[snip] >>>I suspect that one may need to force the formation of 4H from 3H >>>through bombardment with energetic neutrons. >[snip] >>I forgot to mention that this was taken from the *Thermal Neutron Reaction >>Table* at the Brookhaven site. >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >In that case it might be worth getting in touch with those who >maintain the table. They may have included this reaction by mistake. >If they have a different explanation, I would be most interested to >hear it. Well, I checked into it further by revisiting the sites in preparation for writing to BNL. I discovered that once again I have confused things. (Well, at least I am consistent!) Neither: nor: were based on strictly thermal neutrons. I had confused these with: which references the Thermal Neutron Capture Gammas Tables. I got the thermal neutron cross section for H3 out of the CRC Handbook. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 00:44:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06706; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:39:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:39:59 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34B6507C.4E43EAB2 verisoft.com.tr> <199801090149.RAA23619 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:40:17 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"1ZFDZ.0.ie1.UFpjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts - This just appeared in my in-mail: > Hamdi - > > > Isn't a compact hypothesis? > > Sure it is. And such things can be useful > and have their place. But I want more > experimental data. Some of these other > experiments may provide a practical route > to getting that. Perhaps they are > generating the same or a related effect. > > Personally, I'd rather be totally clueless, > yet have a replicable column of > unshiledable effect on my benchtop, rather > than have a splendid hypothesis or theory > and so little experimental evidence to > check it with. I have no idea why this message was resent by Vortex. I had nothing to do with resending it, as far as I know. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 01:42:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10563; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:38:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:38:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34B75D27.2D01 keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:36:07 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Tesla Electric Car Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7-Fkv3.0.qa2.U6qjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! I received a phone call recently from a fellow representing a group of experimenters. They had found one of the files on the electric car that Nikola Tesla drove around the Philly area back in the 1920's and were wanting to experiment with aether/zpe tapping. On checking the files, I had only one posted though the other two were on the KeelyNet mirrors, so I posted all three them in one place if you might be interested in reading about the car demonstrations....the first file has two articles that are quite good; http://www.keelynet.com/index98.htm click on Energy Also, Bruce Perrault let me buy a copy of an audio tape he had of the late Arthur Matthews. Matthews claimed that he and Tesla worked together at Matthews farm in Canada. The tape has a short section describing the Tesla car and Matthews claims Tesla used super efficient batteries located in the trunk. Another claim is that Tesla used broadcast power and that the car was in fact receiving and using that energy, though he drove it hundreds of miles away from Philadelphia. If you recall the Colorado Springs notes, people complained of drawing +8" sparks while they and their horses walked on the ground miles away from Teslas 'Magnifying' Transmitter. To my mind, such a system put into use today would create all kinds of problems with our sensitive electronic equipment....however, if Tesla was really tapping the aether/zpe on some frequency, to make a local power supply (as did Moray in his experiments where a car was driving down the highway, yet lamps were lit from the received energy), then that's what I want...a perpetual battery that taps aether/zpe flows wherever it is, just what is necessary to run a given load or appliance, that will do just fine thanks....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 01:59:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12622; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:58:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34B761BC.418A keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:55:40 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Building a Researcher List References: <34B75D27.2D01 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S794_1.0.353.oOqjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! The Researcher Network List has 25 people since putting it online 01/07/98. The idea is for people to be able to contact like minded folk LOCALLY, to promote personal interaction in the form of discussions, experiments and general information/idea networking. Hopefully, it will seed various ideas and concepts that will be tested and the results shared with everyone via mailing lists, newsgroups, magazine articles and other networks. If you might be interested in signing on so that others in your area can know of your presence, check out; http://www.keelynet.com/network.htm The INE Contact database is also linked to this file.....Thanks... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 04:02:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA26534; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:59:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:59:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP action! Run 2 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:54:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1dbe$87624cc0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"aiAoM2.0.WU6.NAsjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: >Hey, at last! An easy means to prove >light lepton production - by filling >up space! By doing it on demand, i.e. >random time intervals, leaks can then >be eliminated as the cause of pressure >increases. Yes. You can also use a mass spectrometer setup with a 3.0 gauss magnetic field and a few kilovolts accelerating potential and a fluorescing phosphor to detect the uncoupled ones. Or watch them annihilate between a set of Casimir Plates as they come together. (pushed by the ones outside) :-) >It should be possible to even build a >LL equivalent to a steam engine, by >enclosing the LL generator inside a >piston, and placing the machine inside >a vacuum chamber. Space makes a good vacuum chamber. :-) I prefer a Thermionic Converter running at 2,000 K at about one Torr (133 Pascals) pressure with a potassium reservoir at about 600 K to get 133 Pa pressure with a hydrogen feed, or a Solar Cell that will convert the light from the annihilation photon energy to electricity also. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 04:38:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27447; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:34:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:34:55 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; BLP action! Run 2 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 05:31:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1dc3$9fe73580$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"PZy1X3.0.ni6.khsjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Try this for size, Horace. If it wasn't for the "matter" in the chamber the bound LL pairs wouldn't show any pressure! The residual matter O2, N2, Ar, and H2,etc. are restricted by the bound INERT LL "Gas". Since the "VACUUM" is 99.9% "dark matter" consisting of LLs and such, i.e., "Aether", the residual gases in a vacuum chamber are what push the Casimir Plates together. :-) Using a Thermionic Converter or a Photo-Voltaic Cell means that you will have to have a LL-Dark Matter vent to Space-Vacuum to keep the required pressure in the Converter-Cell. Just an engineering exercise? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 07:15:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08237; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:11:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:11:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Boron -Hydrino Fusion? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:07:34 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1dd9$7ba28880$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cwU3s2.0.Y02.U-ujq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Using the low pressure Borane (BxHy)gas against the hot Tungsten filament possibly with a potassium "catalyst" Might allow the reaction: Hydrino + B ----> 3 He4 + 17 Mev. Nice way to get Hot Fusion without a fuss? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 07:40:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15095; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:35:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:35:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199801101534.KAA07600 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:20:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Squeezed Light Reply-to: chronos enter.net CC: Puthoff , hheffner@corecom.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"93Qaz2.0.jh3.cKvjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 6 Jan 98 at 11:26, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/5/98 11:02:13 PM, hheffner corecom.net wrote: > > < manipulating the orbital *fields*, by stressing them in some way, in order > to absorb or non-symmetrically reflect/refract ZPE. > >> > > If you can figure out how to do it, that would be great! > Hal Puthoff Squeezed Light is known by experiment to be capable of creating a real non-symmetrical distribution in the zero-point EM radiation field. Roughly speaking, a linearly-polarized laser beam is sent through a crystal having nonlinear optical properties. The output beam is said to be "squeezed" in that its quantum fluctuations in one polarization direction (eg along the +/- x-axis) are LESS than the vacuum expectation value, while the fluctuations in the perpendicular direction (eg along the +/- y-axis) are GREATER than the vacuum value. According to Ref. 1: "Squeezing is obtained when the noise associated with a particular quadrature phase amplitude is reduced below that expected for a coherent state. Experimentally, this is observed as a noise level that goes below the shot noise level. Squeezed light cannot be predicted using standard classical radiation theory, and is hence evidence for the quantum theory of light." Squeezed Light sounds like "no free lunch", since the combined fluctuations (in both x and y directions) are usually claimed to equal or exceed that prescribed by Heisenberg's uncertainty law. HOWEVER, inquiring minds look for loopholes... Question for Dr. Puthoff: what happens when Squeezed Light is fed into the equations of stochastic electrodynamics? ------------------ [Ref. 1] "Four-Wave Mixing and Light Squeezing" by M.D. Reid. p. 413-453 in Part 3 of "Modern Nonlinear Optics", M.W. Evans and S. Keilich, editors. Wiley, 1994. ------------------ Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 07:40:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15300; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:37:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:37:22 -0800 Message-ID: <34B7FFBF.7889 itl.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:09:51 -0800 From: Nick Palmer X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7CC9B4049FE" Resent-Message-ID: <"vXtca2.0.vk3.nMvjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7CC9B4049FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sent this before but it didn't turn up on Vortex for some reason... Tom Miller wrote: > Of course, the "case of Jersey" cannot "show what lies ahead for > the rest of the world..." because the situation in Jersey cannot > possibly happen worldwide. ........ > The economies of Jersey, Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands are based > o= n an artifact (that of being a tax haven) which cannot exist in the > world as a whole. Of course the "case of Jersey" can give a warning. You are right at the moment Tom, but I was talking about the future (several decades hence). Many futurists can see a time when increasing mechanisation, the use of robots, computers etc would exactly put most humans in a supervisory role while the machines got on with the job of churning out ever more material goods. The level of material wealth would be high and people would have more time and resources on their hands for such things as child rearing (until the global store cupboard starts to run down). John Logajan wrote: >What a laugh. You've hardly made the case that your local trend is >due to anything in particular -- you've merely asserted it. You have >also failed to show that the TFR excceds 2.1, instead offering just >the GFR. In fact, I believe your numbers indicate a TFR well below >2.1. You haven't shown if local immigration accounts for the >demographic shift, nor have you shown if the local TFR was >uncharacteristically low. Laugh's on you. Both Jed and the piece you quote from (Source: World Bank, World Development Indicators 1993, and Population Reference Bureau, World Population Data Sheet 1994) gave examples where increasing wealth, literacy etc gave rise to a population boom. It is therefore obvious that the Population/"Development" graph is not a simplistic straight line. The case of Jersey merely backs this up. I wasn't trying to show or demonstrate anything to you, therefore I haven't "failed". I was reporting the views of a professional demographer in a position to know what he is talking about. He forecasts Jersey's population, due to natural growth (we also have a problem with immigration too; no-one is allowed to buy a house in Jersey unless they have been resident for 20 years or have an income in excess of =A3500,000 a= year), will reach a "zenith" in 2030 then stabilise. BTW, his first work in developmental economics was in India so he knows both sides of the = development situation too. Did you know that Sweden's TFR has been increasing? It is back up to 1.9. TFR, however is a misleading concept. I quote from John Logajan's message: >Note: Total fertility rate measures the number of children >born to a woman throughout her life at current age-specific >birth rates. Apparently Jersey is experiencing an upswing in several age specific birth rates; most significant of which is that of the career woman with a small, or no family, choosing to have children (or more) late in life. He actually described the behaviour of some of these women as "desperate". This is to be expected as the selfish yuppy/"me" generation gets its act together at last >Your case is the typical one of wildly extrapolated trends with no >basis in demonstrable fact. You obviously don't understand the Precautionary Principle. Fortunately, governments and their advisers are beginning to. Demonstrable fact or "proof" can only be had after the fact. We now know that atmospheric nuclear tests do not set off a chain reaction in the atmosphere - ***when the "3 in a million" chance was taken***, we didn't. Where the possible consequences of any particular scary thing happening *are severe enough*, the burden of proof is reversed. It is up to the arrogant merchants of complacency to give cast iron proof of safety. It is up to the naysayers to prove that something cannot happen, that something won't have dangerous consequences. The mere possibility of the scary thing is sufficient to take action to avoid it. This is real intelligence. --------------7CC9B4049FE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <34B26558.11D5 itl.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:09:44 -0800 From: Nick Palmer X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tom gorge.net Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth References: <199712282044.MAA18582 mx1.eskimo.com> <34A6E95C.1314@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Miller wrote: > Of course, the "case of Jersey" cannot "show what lies ahead for > the rest of the world..." because the situation in Jersey cannot > possibly happen worldwide. ........ > The economies of Jersey, Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands are based > o= n an artifact (that of being a tax haven) which cannot exist in the > world as a whole. = Of course the "case of Jersey" can give a warning. Yoe are right at the = moment Tom, but I was talking about the future (several decades hence). = Many futurists can see a time when increasing mechanisation, the use of = robots, computers etc would exactly put most humans in a supervisory role = while the machines got on with the job of churning out ever more material = goods. The level of material wealth would be high and people would have = more time and resources on their hands for such things as child rearing = (until the store cupboard starts to run down). John Logajan wrote: >What a laugh. You've hardly made the case that your local trend is >due to anything in particular -- you've merely asserted it. You have >also failed to show that the TFR excceds 2.1, instead offering just >the GFR. In fact, I believe your numbers indicate a TFR well below >2.1. You haven't shown if local immigration accounts for the = >demographic shift, nor have you shown if the local TFR was = >uncharacteristically low. Laugh's on you. Both Jed and the piece you quote from (Source: World = Bank, World Development Indicators 1993, and Population Reference Bureau, = World Population Data Sheet 1994) gave examples where increasing wealth, = literacy etc gave rise to a population boom. It is therefore = obvious that the Population/"Development" graph is not a simplistic = straight line. The case of Jersey merely backs this up. I wasn't trying to show or demonstrate anything to you, therefore = I haven't "failed". I was reporting the views of a professional = demographer in a position to know what he is talking about. He forecasts = Jersey's population, due to natural growth (we also have a problem with = immigration too; no-one is allowed to buy a house in Jersey unless they = have been resident for 20 years or have an income in excess of =A3500,000 a= = year), will reach a "zenith" in 2030 then stabilise. BTW, his first work = in developmental economics was in India so he knows both sides too. Did you know that Sweden's TFR has been increasing? It is back up = to 1.9. TFR, however is a misleading concept. I quote from John Logajan's = message: >Note: Total fertility rate measures the number of children >born to a woman throughout her life at current age-specific >birth rates. Apparently Jersey is experiencing an upswing in several age specific = birth rates; most significant of which is that of the career woman with a = small, or no family, choosing to have children (or more) late in life. He = actually described the behaviour of some of these women as "desperate". = This is to be expected as the foul and selfish yuppy/"me" generation gets = its act together at last >Your case is the typical one of wildly extrapolated trends with no = >basis in demonstrable fact. You obviously don't understand the Precautionary Principle. = Fortunately, governments and their advisers are beginning to. Demonstrable fact or "proof" can only be had after the fact. We = now know that atmospheric nuclear tests do not set off a chain reaction = in the atmosphere - ***when the "3 in a million" chance was taken***, we = didn't. Where the possible consequences of any particular scary thing = happening *are severe enough*, the burden of proof is reversed. It is up = to the arrogant merchants of complacency to give cast iron proof of = safety. It is up to the naysayers to prove that something cannot happen, = that something won't have dangerous consequences. The mere possibility of = the scary thing is sufficient to take action to avoid it. This is real = intelligence. --------------7CC9B4049FE-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 09:10:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30759; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:05:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:05:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:08:40 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: MORE ... Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Resent-Message-ID: <"fqosu.0.SW7.Mfwjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:39 AM 1/9/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > The other electrons and atomic nuclei, i.e. > > the atoms, are not coherent. > >The nuclei play a major role in superconduction and also in the gravity >stuff in the theories. In Li's theory, the gyrations of the nuclei are >quantized and coherent, and are the cause of her theoretical magnified >distortions of space properties inside the lattice to the extent that an >additional and detectable gravitational field might be found outside the SC. > >Also, as far as I'm able to understand it anyway, more conventional theory >holds that the conducting Cooper pairs wouldn't have the ability to move >like they do without having corresponding motions from the quantized >cooperation of the lattice ions (nuclei). Yes, true, that the lattice cooperates. The BCS theory utilizes the idea of phonon exchanges, quantized lattice motion, to maintain coherence between paired electrons with typical separations of many atomic distances. Two supercondictive lattices made of differing isotopes, for example, exhibit differing properties, like Tc, due to the involvement of the nucleus in the lattice vibration rate, and thus phonon exchange rate. However, much of the success of the BCS theory was based on it being a *mean field theory.* This provides the benefit that only pair-wise electron interactions need be considered, due to the fact that the actions of the other electrons have a net mean effect that can be averaged. The random motion of the lattice due to heat is in effect compensated for by the frequent exchange of pairs. The requirement for being paired is only equal but opposite momentum, so when a pair is disrupted by thermal action, the electrons quickly are matched (spontaneously by chance) by other electrons in the vicinity having equal but opposite momentum. In this way it is possible to understand that the lattice is capable of random thermal motion while the net effect in the superconductor is long range coherence of the pairs. Hopefully, my understanding of this is correct. In any event, the BCS theory, though the long time mainstream theory, is only one of many, including, as you mention, Li's, and I don't know anything about them, and not much about the BCS theory either. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 09:23:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00639; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:21:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:21:48 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:25:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Boron -Hydrino Fusion? Resent-Message-ID: <"SA6-f2.0.u9.guwjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:07 AM 1/10/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Using the low pressure Borane (BxHy)gas >against the hot Tungsten filament possibly >with a potassium "catalyst" Might allow the >reaction: Hydrino + B ----> 3 He4 + 17 Mev. OK, how does this work? It appears equivalent to: P + B --> 3 He4 so we have 6 neutrons and 6 protons involved total, and you are looking at the common species 11B. However, you are talking about a proton cross section, then, and I wonder if B has a huge cross section for protons. I don't know what the proton cross section looks like for B11, but since the neutron cross section is huge, I would think the proton cross section is small. However, your are talking about a LL Hydrino, so one of the He4's is a weird one, I assume, and the cross section is anybody's guess. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 09:59:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28334; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:56:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:56:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:56:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"19zpp1.0.ew6.kOxjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: > At 10:38 AM 1/9/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > >> Horace Heffner wrote: > [snip] > > > The quantity v (i.e. nu) is a frequency, and is not an integer, nor is > > > it necessarily any multiple of an integer, so neither is E. For hv = E > > > to be quantized, it must be so for some other reason, true? > > > > Yes , but the reason can be derived from the above by placing the > > assumed restrictions on possible energy values that are imposed by the > > Bohr model of the atom- NOT THAT I PERSONALLY BELIEVE SUCH RESTRICTIONS > > NECESSARILY EXIST . Remember I said "for those WHO FIND IT NECESSARY > > to believe in the idea of quantum `jumps' between individual atoms" ... > > which was intended for those " particle" types who insist on modeling > > everything this way. > > > > I think the " reason " you seek can be derived like this : > > > > Since there is a restriction on the orbiting electron which is basic to > > Quantum theory , the electron is confined to those orbits in which the > > angular momentum equals a whole number multiplied by a constant . > > > No, I think you missed my main point! I often have a difficult time > communicating, so please bear with me. The above is the "reason" I have > already discounted. I specifically said, in three different ways, the > restrictions on v comes from the structure of atoms: Sorry. It appears the problem was not your communicating skills ,but rather my inattention . > > At 12:39 AM 1/9/98, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] > > > I understand that quantization is imposed on atomic states by the Bohr > magneton, i.e. by quantized angular momentum. I am saying your FTL > experiment, and radio waves in general, as well as cavity radiation and > Bremsstrahlung, are not subject to the mechanics of the atom, thus v has a > free non-quantized reign. I didn't know that. I thought EVERYTHING was subject to the mechanics of the atom , according to the interpretations of Bohr. This could all be dead wrong, due to reasons I > can not see. There could be other quantizing influences, like the > quantization of time or space, but it seems to me the linkage to the atom, > if any, is remote. E = hv applies to radiation not emitted by an atom, but > emitted by any charged particle, including conduction band electrons moving > in an antenna, protons in near collision, etc. I don't see any quantizing > influences there, so applying E = hv to your equations does not in any way > impose or address quantization. To make sure there is no misunderstanding, > let me say explicitly that I think this is *good for your other arguments* > and supports what you have said. Let me refer to your original statement > for clarity: > > > At 10:57 AM 1/8/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > [snip] > > > > Planck had earlier discovered the discontinuity of the energy > > exchanged when "light" (various incoherent frequencies of EM radiation) > > is transferred between interacting atoms of matter. Schrodinger's > > contribution to the overall view was that the energy values could be > > described as continuous , and not discrete , when a RESONANT (coherent, > > single frequency) condition was met. In this view then ,it is the > > energy and frequency TRANSFER BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL "ATOMS" that is > > discrete, and not the energy values themselves. > > > Yes the energy and therefore the frequency is discrete, provided it is an > atom, i.e. orbital electron, that does the emitting, the transfer. (There > are even some limitations on that as well I think, like those associated > with Rydberg orbitals.) The important part of the point I want to make, > provided my assumptions are correct, is that the motion of conduction band > electrons seems to to fall outside that quantizing restriction. Don't the "conduction band electrons" have to be first associated with an atom somehow to begin with - where do conduction band electrons come from? E = hv > still applies, but does not in any way (that I can see) impose a quantizing > restriction. Well , ok . I just thought it did because "photons" of any variety result from the motion of "electrons" , which must be diplasced from their original atomic orbits with some quantity of energy value determined by the limitations Bohr placed on the atom. Maybe I'm all messed up here in my understanding of the theory which is very possible . I know mostly about Schroedinger's interpretations and not much else with regard to atomic theory. > > > > > > Schrodinger's arguments can be summed up as follows: > > > > If v(e) is the frequency component of an electric charge distribution > > at some initial time, and if v(e)' is it's frequency component after > > the charge distribution has transferred this frequency to some other > > mass, and if the corresponding frequency components of the absorbing > > mass are v(a)' (after absorption) and v(a) (before absorption), then > > the rule that relates the frequency transfer between coupled emitting > > and absorbing resonating elements is: > > > > eq.2 v(e) - v(e)' = v(a)' - v(a) > > > > Note that the frequencies referred to are not associated with any single > > particle of a system. They are rather the normal modes of oscillation of > > a system taken as a whole. > > > > Yes, this goes beyond the definition of an atom, all the way up to "any > resonant system." However, as I said about that: > > >It is true that Plank postulated the energy of an oscillator can only have > >quantized values E = (n)hv, or we can use the more modern E = (n+1/2)hv, > >with n an integer. However, if v is still a real value, not confined by > >orbital mechanics, etc., it appears to me that E is no longer quantized. > >The quantization of E, the setting of photon energy, depends on the > >selection and fixing of the frequency. > > > > You go on to say: > > > > For those who find it necessary to believe in the idea of quantum > > "jumps" between individual atoms , it is pointed out that one merely has > > to multiply both sides of the equation by Planck's constant, h ,then use > > the definition of the quantized energy ,E = hv , to arrive at the > > relation having to do with `energy conservation': > > > > eq.3 E(e) - E(e)' = E(a)' - E(a) > > > > The point here is that one need not postulate a fundamental atomistic > > model for charged matter in order to formulate a complete theory of the > > interaction of resonant (mutually coupled) systems.In fact, using > > Schrodinger's model , one can reduce any material element to it's > > predetermined properties of resistance , capacitance and inductance per > > unit of mass to determine it's normal modes of electrical vibration > > most conducive to energy transfer. > > > Yes. It seems to me lots of the effects of radio and electronics lay > outside the energy quantizing restrictions of atomic effects, because they > are based on the motion of conduction band electrons. E = hv, or even E > = (n+1/2)hv, is free to take on any real value of v, and thus any real > value of E, in many cases. > > It seems (to me personally anyway) that pinning down this issue is > important and fundamental to understanding both energy and limitations, or > lack of limitations, on wave mechanics. Maybe someone knows of other > quantizing limitations? > Would you please discuss "energy conservation" with regard to the above , Horace? This is an important cornerstone of my ideas regarding signal propagation along the longitudinal path of a CLOSED SYSTEM OF INTERACTION between a discreet capacitor and inductor. The example would be a harmonic oscillator where the series damping resistance is changed at one end, say the capacitive end . If there was a delay represented by the amount of time it would take for the "other end" to "know" about it , the energy considerations would have to be corrected for at the other end by volt amps reactive * t(delay) . What would that look like , on an oscilloscope for example monitoring both the capacitive and inductive ends? Thanks for your patience. Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 10:48:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05564; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:45:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:45:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B7C181.7785 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:44:17 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jTMPG1.0.qM1.z6yjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > (snip a dialog with Horace) > The example would be a harmonic oscillator where the series damping > resistance is changed at one end, say the capacitive end . If there was a > delay represented by the amount of time it would take for the "other end" > to "know" about it , the energy considerations would have to be > corrected for at the other end by volt amps reactive * t(delay) . > > What would that look like , on an oscilloscope for example monitoring > both the capacitive and inductive ends? > Ah, Jim, so this is the crux of your experiment! This should be chewed apart as a dog would a bone! Let's start chewing. Let's talk about various hardware configurations that might shed light on this system and choose some that facilitate test measurements. Need it be a free-space wave, a transmission "line", a lumped-parameter delay line, or something else? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 12:24:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA30792; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:19:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:19:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34B7F365.B5 keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:17:09 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Electronic Camoflage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dEtNq2.0.uW7.UVzjq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks! I need the help of the group mind (gestalt) to locate information regarding a recent TV broadcast. It is not free energy related but describes a near-Klingon visual cloaking screen. This is the description posted to me; "a TV program where they talked about a concept that would probably be used in future military camouflage...a fiber-optic screen around an object, a camera to photograph the background, and then displaying the background on the screen so that the object would blend in with the background...exactly the scope of my invention!...it might have been the Discovery Channel or some PBS program. I called the Discovery Channel but they couldn't give me any information unless I knew the day, time of day, or name of the program as this is the way their search program works. I plan to do some searching on the Discovery homepage and some PBS pages but wondered if anyone out there could provide any information on who is developing this system." Any assistance you fellows could provide would be appreciated immensely! Thanks! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 12:42:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16666; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:35:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:35:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B7DAC8.347A darknet.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:32:08 -0500 From: Steve Reply-To: darklord darknet.net Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electronic Camoflage References: <34B7F365.B5 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GP0kF2.0.E44.Ykzjq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Any assistance you fellows could provide would be appreciated immensely! > Thanks! Hi all, This sounds like something I saw on a show called Future Fantastic, on TLC. Unfortunately, I don't remember the broadcast date, and I have not seen this episode since. The example they used, was the creature from Predator. I don't know much more than this, but I hope it helps.. ttyl -Steve King -- darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 14:16:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27230; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:11:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:11:20 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Boron -Hydrino Fusion? Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:06:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1e14$06ccb4a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JD0961.0.Nf6.58_jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nope, Horace. The Hydrino should get into a Boron nucleus as easily as any other neutral particle. The 3800 Barn neutron capture cross-section for n + 5B-10----> He4 + 3 Li-7 + 2.78 Mev isn't as energetic as H* + 5B-11----> 3 He-4. Most likely Hydrinos are responsible for the Proton-Deuteron-Boron reactions that were investigated in the mid 1920s, and most likely the explosive Thermonuclear reactions. The idea of using a Borane (BxHy) in the BLP-type cell was to have it both ways. There are Potassium Borohydride-diBorane solids that can carry the potassium also; K2B2H6 and K2B5H9 etc., that could work in the low pressure hot-filament cells. Thus if you make Hydrinos and catch them with Boron, you get the best of both worlds. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 14:38:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22218; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:35:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34B81334.3C10 keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:32:52 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.sci.physics.new-theories To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electronic Camoflage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tYt271.0.rQ5.oU_jq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts and Hello! Thanks to all who responded with information about the show on electronic visual camoflage, it was indeed the Learning Channel. Amazing how fast the answer was shared.....within 30 minutes of the post....thanks again! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 14:49:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01032; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:45:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:45:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:39:55 -0500 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Electronic Camoflage Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199801101743_MC2-2EDB-2077 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"H_FDz3.0.0G.Le_jq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry said: >> I need the help of the group mind (gestalt) to locate information regarding a recent TV broadcast. It is not free energy related but describes a near-Klingon visual cloaking screen. << I've seen that demo on Brit. TV a year or so ago. I think it was BBC TV1 as an item in "Tomorrow's World", and it performed as you described, the background was displayed on the other side of the object. Too long ago to remember any more - sorry. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 15:23:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29402; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:16:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:16:34 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:19:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"25tRI3.0.BB7.G50kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:56 AM 1/10/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] > >Don't the "conduction band electrons" have to be first associated with an >atom somehow to begin with - where do conduction band electrons come from? [snip] Yes, they come from the atoms, but do not have to change energy levels, i.e. be excited by a photon, or emit a photon, to move about. In fact, the excitment they receive from the lattice, phonons, slows them down and, on balance, transfers their energy to the lattice as heat, though the phonon exchange also drags the following electrons along. Of course, at the conductor boundaries, electrons enter at the - end and leave at the + end. > >Would you please discuss "energy conservation" with regard to the above , >Horace? This is an important cornerstone of my ideas regarding signal >propagation along the longitudinal path of a CLOSED SYSTEM OF INTERACTION >between a discreet capacitor and inductor. > > >The example would be a harmonic oscillator where the series damping >resistance is changed at one end, say the capacitive end . If there was a >delay represented by the amount of time it would take for the "other end" >to "know" about it , the energy considerations would have to be >corrected for at the other end by volt amps reactive * t(delay) . See below. > >What would that look like , on an oscilloscope for example monitoring >both the capacitive and inductive ends? I think to get a full understanding you would have to monitor points in between also, in order to view the propagation. First, let me qualify my remarks. As everybody who has been here long knows, I am not qualified at all in the subjects at hand. Aside from high school physics, and one course in mechanics, I have no formal training in any of this. Almost the entirety of what I know has come from sci.physics.fusion, vortex members, and reading physics books, all learned mostly within the last few years with the soul purpose of looking for free energy. I know even much less about electronics, and 99 percent of what I know has come from reading and not doing. Your knowlege is undoubtedly far superior to mine, and the knowledge, training and experience of people here like Jim Schaffer and other vorts is the best you will find anywhere. What I do offer is the fresh and possibly knarled up perspective of a newcomer, a possibly bizarre "knowledge" based on reading a blend of science, pseudo-science, and endless speculation. I eagerly offer my comments because I learn from the corrections, but also because I believe any idea that is a fresh idea can help the creative synergy here. That said ... It sounds like in your LC "harmonic oscillator" you are now talking about tranmission of the potential change and current change transmitted in a wire, as opposed to lightspeed EM waves in a waveguide or on the surface. I consider EM waves to be a very different phenomenon from conduction. I wrote a post on this a while back, in order to define my concepts, which differ significantly from accepted theory, but also differ in a critical fashion from the views of various free energy EM people like Bearden, Frolov, etc. The delinination of these concepts was done in order to initiate a discussion of conduction in an electrolyte, but has some relevance here I think. Here is an edited version of the post to clarify some of these issues: THE MEANING OF POTENTIAL It is the intent here to portray a classical view of the nature of electrical potential and the propagation of potential in a conductor. It is an attempt to think in simple terms but in terms of first principle physics about the true nature of electrical conduction and potential. For simplicity quantum mechanical considerations must be dismissed. A quantum of charge, regardless of the form of it's quantum wave function, regardless of the psi^2 distribution of the wave function, has a mean location on a macro level, and on an atomic level. For example, it is the separation of mean location of the nucleus and the electron cloud that provides a dipole moment in an insulator in an electrostatic field for example. The charge of a particle is inextricably linked to the mass of a particle, which also has the same mean location. The mean location of mass can not move without the mean location of charge moving, and vice versa. This is so, regardless of the QM interpretation to which you subscribe. The main difference in a classical view and a QM view of conduction is in the quantized response of the lattice to charge motion, or phonons, and the nature of the conduction pathway, i.e. the conduction band. These concepts are necessary to understand resistance, but not the discussion of potential and conduction here. I do not believe these differences are important to this discussion, but perhaps they are, or there are other important differences. However, from here on the discussion is assumed to be at a classical level. It is assumed that this simplification will result in a clearer understanding of the meaning of potential in a conductor. What is the relation of net charge Q and potential V? You can not have one without the other. Charge is simply a count of the number of units of + charged particles minus the number of - charged particles times a utilitarian constant e. In other words, Q is a sum of unbalanced charges. We do not need to deal with (sufficiently locally) balanced charges in determining Q. How do we know which charges to count to determine a Q? The charges to count are typically designated by specifying the volume in which they are located. We speak of a charge on a capacitor plate, or on the spherical terminal of a van de Graff generator. Like charges repel, so in a conductor the unbalanced charges tend to repel each other out to the surface of the conductor. When talking about a static charge in a conductor, we are for the most part talking about a surface with charge distributed upon it. It is this association of charge to a quantity of volume or surface that results in the inextricable link between charge and potential. Since charge is a net value, we are always dealing with a repulsive force in determining the potential of a statically charged conductor. How is the potential derived and what does it mean in a realistic sense. Two particles of unlike charge require a force to bring them together. Work is done in bringing the unlike charges from a theoretically infinite distance to some specific distance. Work is expended bringing unlike charges into proximity, thus energy is stored when unbalanced charge is in proximity. The work done compressing the charges together is a potential energy available at some later time to do work. If there is any net repulsive force on an individual particle free to move it will accelerate in the direction opposite the force. If it is not free to move in all directions, it will move in the direction, of all the possible directions it is free to move, in which the component vector of the force is largest. For this reason, in a conductor with static charge Q>0, every individual net charge has on it a net force in a direction in which the charge is not free to move, i.e. perpendicular to some barrier, such as the edge of the conductor. It is the magnitude of this unbalanced "force at a point" which is the potential of the point. Charges in a conductor or otherwise free to move repel each other and will expend some of their potential energy doing so, in gaining the lowest potential energy possible. The charges are like a bunch of masses connected by repelling springs. Raising a static voltage in a conductor requires "compression" of additional charges into the conductor to increase the net unbalanced force on each charge in the conductor and to rearrange the charges in the conductor to a new lowest potential energy state. For example, a van de Graff generator must carry unbalanced charges on a belt up into the terminal sphere by exerting work on the charges over the distance from the brushes to the edge of the sphere. Once taken off the belt the charges mutually repel and rearrange throughout the surface of the sphere. The amount of work to bring in an incremental charge depends on the capacity of the sphere. The larger the sphere, the more distributed the charges, the less net unbalanced force on each charge, the less the potential on the surface of the sphere for a given Q. The less the potential, the less the force on the additional particles coming up the belt, the less work to add charge. The capacity of a sphere is very small. The capacitance of a sphere of diameter d in meters is given by C = d x 5.56x10^-11 Farads. A cylinder or wire has even less capacitance per unit of area. It is for this reason the energy to bring a wire not in a circuit up to a potential is ignored in EE applications, because it is nearly zero. However, it is most important to note that it is not zero! I think a failure to understand this principle leads to all kinds of ridiculous over unity ideas regarding potential and current. More importantly, it erroneously leads to a kind of amorphous ethereal concept of potential as a kind of lightspeed electrostatic field projected in space from one end of a conductor to the other. This is maybe OK as long as the charge distribution remains static. So how does a local change in potential at one end of a conductor travel from that end of the conductor to the other? Not at light's speed in a vacuum! The reason for this is that charges must move in the conductor for potential to propagate. If charges move, and their associated mass is not zero, they must be accelerated. They can not instantly jump to lightspeed. The propagation rate of potential must be less than lightspeed in a conductor. An electromagnetic field can propagate through a coaxial cable or wave guide at the speed of light, but there is no permanent charge displacement involved with such a wave. A permanent change in potential requires permanent charge displacement. The rate of propagation of such a displacement propagated by a specific species of particle, such as the electron, is proportional to the acceleration rate of the charge which, for a given change in force balance, is inversely proportional to the mass associated with the charge. The propagation is dependent on a local charge moving and changing the force balance on neighbors (dV/dT) which then accelerate to move and change (dI/dT) the charge balance on more distant neighbors, etc. So what about steady state conduction? It seems logical, especially since charge is quantized, to look at steady state conduction as the repetitive constant rate of removal of charge at one end of a conductor and steady state replacement to maintain a specific potential at the other (or vice versa). In this way it is possible to break a conductor into segments and treat the segments in a manner consistent with the whole, or vice versa. A removal of a charge at one end of a segment results in a change in potential being propagated from one end of the segment to the other, which eventually results in charge demand at the other end. Since lots of these events happen simultaneously, i.e. a conductor can be divided into many segments in both series and parallel, there is a continuous and massively parallel steady state current flow through the conductor. This is not to say that every segment conains the same charge or movement of charge. On the contrary, since charges repel, more current can be expected toward the outer surface of a conductor. As electrons travel through each segment some of their momentum and thus some of their energy is transferred to the lattice, thus they leave the segment producing less pressure on electrons in the next segment, thus potential difference between segments is a function of flow. When boundary electron flow stops, potentials equalize throughout the conductor. It is interesting that according to this concept that since moving charge has mass, it must have momentum. Charge acceleration can cause the potential to overshoot the balanced potential, then fly back, and create a rippling effect as potential equalizes. It seems logical that, even in the case of a steady current, that a specific lattice would resonate at a particular frequency when charge is flowing in it, just like water flowing in a pipe makes white noise with a characteristic frequency dominant. By these concepts it is also possible for the direction of charge motion and the direction of potential to be momentarily completely opposite due to the charge momentum, especially in very high speed events. This is a condition that has been referred to as negative power (-v*i). I don't see where it is any more negative than a pendulum on the upswing, but maybe it could fool a watt meter. It is novel to think of current as a fluid with mass. An automobile has about a pound of electrons in it. A coulomb has 6.24x10^18 electrons each weighing 9.11x10^-31 kg, or 5.69x10-12 kg/C. So a kilogram is about 1.76x10^11 coulombs, or about 5573 amp-years. So conducting the electrons in an automobile would take about 2500 years at 1 amp. A pound of protons at an amp would take about 16 months, but the electrons in the car, if they could be separated out, would still take 2500 years at an amp. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 15:27:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29276; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:16:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:16:14 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:19:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Looking for Frank Znidarsic Resent-Message-ID: <"LNwZ3.0.F97.y40kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Frank, I still can't talk to you at AOL. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 15:32:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA31905; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:30:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:30:21 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:28:27 -0900 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , "vortex-l" From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Boron -Hydrino Fusion? Resent-Message-ID: <"UncTs3.0.Ro7.CI0kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:06 PM 1/10/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Nope, Horace. The Hydrino should get into >a Boron nucleus as easily as any other >neutral particle. Well, even neutrons have a cross section! But the small neutral particle model not apply to a hydrino, as it has a strong distribution of charge near its nucleus, thus the strong force probaly can only take hold via proton tunneling, thus the smaller cross section. It strikes me the cross section should be proton like. > >The 3800 Barn neutron capture cross-section >for n + 5B-10----> He4 + 3 Li-7 + 2.78 Mev >isn't as energetic as H* + 5B-11----> 3 He-4. > >Most likely Hydrinos are responsible for the >Proton-Deuteron-Boron reactions that were >investigated in the mid 1920s, and most likely >the explosive Thermonuclear reactions. I'm not familiar with this. Sounds interesting, esp. D + B. > >The idea of using a Borane (BxHy) in the BLP-type cell was to have it both >ways. > >There are Potassium Borohydride-diBorane solids >that can carry the potassium also; K2B2H6 and >K2B5H9 etc., that could work in the low >pressure hot-filament cells. > >Thus if you make Hydrinos and catch them with >Boron, you get the best of both worlds. :-) I like cake too! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 16:32:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09812; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:28:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:28:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980110182815.00827100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:28:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ogyYp3.0.EP2.I81kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Run 3 results and discussion can be viewed at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun3.html Significant chamber pressure anomalies were observed in this run without KNO3! Please help us decide what to do next. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 17:45:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24283; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:41:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:41:29 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B81315.7AE77D2E mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:32:21 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wjiem3.0.Jx5.7D2kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: Two particles of unlike charge require a force to bring them together. Wow Horace, That was some discussion of Potential; but I don't understand the above statement. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 17:51:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25941; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:47:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:47:59 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:44:03 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1e32$660bf660$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kD6Zu3.0.9L6.BJ2kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 5:17 PM Subject: BLP run3 (no KNO3) >Run 3 results and discussion can be viewed at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun3.html > >Significant chamber pressure anomalies were observed in this run without >KNO3! Please help us decide what to do next. >From your web page data,Scott you had a net ambient pressure gain of 7 Torr. With H2O,N2, O2, Ar, or other non-condensibles that represents a few Micrograms of outgassing. A monolayer over 200 cm^2 could give you that. My Hours and Hours, And Hours of experience with high vacuum systems tells me that you need a higher bake-out temperature. What you have with your low conductance "plumbing" is a "virtual leak". If you ever used Ion gauges you will remember that when you first turn them on after a system has been up to air they will show a high pressure surge due to this outgassing. A lot more with glass or ceramics where 350 C min bake-out temperature is required. As much as I would like to see Light Leptons (Calorons?) :-) the bakeout is needed. Unless you wish to ignore this "artifact" and go ahead with a KNO3 run? Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 18:25:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01103; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:21:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:21:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:21:26 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: <34B7C181.7785 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-BVMN1.0.8H.Fo2kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > (snip a dialog with Horace) >> The example would be a harmonic oscillator where the series damping >> resistance is changed at one end, say the capacitive end . If there was a >> delay represented by the amount of time it would take for the "other end" >> to "know" about it , the energy considerations would have to be >> corrected for at the other end by volt amps reactive * t(delay) . >> >> What would that look like , on an oscilloscope for example monitoring >> both the capacitive and inductive ends? > Frank Stenger wrote: > Ah, Jim, so this is the crux of your experiment! Yes , it's one variation . It's a simple ohms law energy conservation question. You could vary the voltage as well , for a time short enough to observe the effect at either end concurrently. > This should be chewed apart as a dog would a bone! Let's start > chewing. Let's talk about various hardware configurations that might > shed light on this system and choose some that facilitate test > measurements. Need it be a free-space wave, a transmission "line", a > lumped-parameter delay line, or something else? It's a long wire antenna , Frank , observed for timing delays accross it's length . The long wire is also an inductance , if you want to equate it to a resonant system , in series with a standard capacitor of equal reactance at the frequency of the signal. If you drag out that old one channel scope , you can at least observe phase shifts with it if it has "H" (horizontal) input as well as the vertical (voltage) input. In other words, hopefully you could disable the horiz sweep some way so with 0 vac input at both vert and horiz inputs you get a stationary dot in the middle. Before we go any farther , can you disable the horiz sweep on your old scope? If not , does it by chance have an "EXT SYNC" input? Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 18:39:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02581; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:35:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:35:23 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:31:22 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1e39$020cbbc0$32a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"IAKNA2.0.Fe.f_2kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, If you want-need to go bakeout; Sheathed Thermocouples and threaded compression fittings, Conax. www.conaxbuffalo.com. Heater Tapes; www.electrothermal.com. You can fry the thing from the outside. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 18:50:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03282; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:47:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:47:05 -0800 From: atech ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980110214848.008e840c popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:48:48 +0000 To: hic world.std.com (Howard I Cohen) Subject: Re: THE AETHER HAS CAPACITANCE PROPERTIES ONLY./Scholarly reply Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"ZH7Tu2.0.7p.eA3kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Howard; Cool Howard! There were some other naysayers who kind of said that the figure was off but you may have correlated otherwise. Would you like to subscribe to the vortex-l list? Dennis At 10:41 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >> I thought that you may find the following interesting. >> >> Regards; >> Dennis Lee >> > > >Thank you. You're right, it was indeed interesting. In fact it motivated me >to do a little calculating of my own. > >By assuming that there is a definite link between electro-magnetic effects, >like a discharging capacitor exhibits, and gravity, which can interact with >e-m forces to produce a space-time warp, then using 3.42 x 10^ -24 farads >and the intrinsic impedance of free space (see the little transformer in the >back of your TV), Z =sq rt (L/C) or 377 ohms, I was successful in >calculating Young's Modulus of Elasticity, which, of course, ties back to >the elastic limit of free space as well as its impedance. > >My next attempt shall be to show that, properly applied, Schroedinger's Wave >Equation would, in fact, using Heisenberg's Uncertainly Principle - >expressed as Energy x Time, leads to the value of 3.42 x 10^ -24 farads. >BTW, 3.42 x 10^-24 farads can be denoted as 3.42 pico pico farads or 3.42 >nano femto farads. Much easier to write it this way on the the internet. > >As ever, > >Howard > >Howard I. Cohen, Director >CAD - Special Interest Group >Boston Computer Society > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 21:03:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20210; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:58:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:58:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B85152.7B12 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:57:54 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aqPLQ2.0.hx4.D65kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > It's a long wire antenna , Frank , observed for timing delays accross > it's length . > > The long wire is also an inductance , if you want to equate it to a > resonant system , in series with a standard capacitor of equal > reactance at the frequency of the signal. OK, Jim, I think it's sinking in. Your idea is that a harmonic oscillator, let's say at its fundamental frequency, is in a way "all knowing" at any instant at any point on its physical dimensions. Is this right? Further, the object of your test is to kick it in the butt at one end and listen to it jerk, instantaneously, at the other end. Is this roughly right? To me this is a fascinating concept and might have different implications at macroscopic sizes than at "atomic" sizes. No matter now - on with the macroscopic ideas. I have no problem with the objective of your test rig - only in its detailed setup. As I have mentioned, I feel that the open wire loop dressed around your building is TOO COMPLEX to characterize in a simple test. I wish a harmonic oscillator could be agreed upon that would have: 1. A clearly defined one-dimensional length, not coupled to EVERYTHING in your building. A single-wire line is like an old single wire telegraph line with earth-ground return, isn't it? It seems to me that this WOULD work if it were actually stretched out straight. 2. I am still assuming that what you want is a harmonic oscillator - if this is so, what's wrong with a half-wave length of coax? This COULD be looped around your building to centralize the electronics IF care were taken to isolate the ends of the lines so you could be sure of no crosstalk across your benchtop - which certainly must be avoided to make the results clear, right? Please talk to me about other forms of "extended" harmonic oscillators that you feel would work for your experiment. This is one of those bones that I would like to chew on for a bit. Maybe we need your resonating parabolic dishes but this seems to be difficult to work with to demonstrate the principle. > > If you drag out that old one channel scope , you can at least observe > phase shifts with it if it has "H" (horizontal) input as well as the > vertical (voltage) input. In other words, hopefully you could disable > the horiz sweep some way so with 0 vac input at both vert and horiz > inputs you get a stationary dot in the middle. > > Before we go any farther , can you disable the horiz sweep on your old > scope? If not , does it by chance have an "EXT SYNC" input? As for the scope, Jim, yes - it has vertical input, external sync., and horizontal input. The instruction book (1962) has a section on phase measurement with it. I think I see what you're getting at! I do have an rf signal generator that I think will work in the 1 MHz region. My problem remains the configuration of the harmonic oscillator. I have about 80 feet of 59/U, 75 ohm coax. Now, the center conductor is an inductor (distributed) just like your single wire. The shield conductor is very similar to your building bricks and boards and gutters, but it is nice and uniform and small and can be curved up in a loop without causing reflection chaos to cloud the results. If this idea stinks - then it is indeed a bone to chew on. Jeeze, I might learn how to use all the functions of my scope if I stick with this! By the way, how about a mechanical harmonic oscillator like a stretched slinky? The wave equations are fairly analogous, right? Slap my wrist if we are'nt talking wave equations - I have a hard time separating this stuff out. Chew away! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 21:27:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA31436; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:24:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:24:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980110232426.00829100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:24:26 -0600 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: <01bd1e32$660bf660$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PqhRn3.0.0h7.0U5kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:44 PM 1/10/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >My Hours and Hours, And Hours of experience >with high vacuum systems tells me that you need >a higher bake-out temperature. sounds right, Fred. >If you ever used Ion gauges you will remember >that when you first turn them on after a system >has been up to air they will show a high >pressure surge due to this outgassing. Right you are...it happens every time I turn it on... >If you want-need to go bakeout; Sheathed >Thermocouples and threaded compression >fittings, Conax. www.conaxbuffalo.com. Hey, I've got two heaters in there already...and a temp probe inside and one on the exterior surface. I think I just need to run it up to ~280C under vacuum and hold it there all day long or more. (max temp is limited by the Pb solder used on the feedthrus (m.p. 320C)). Point: There are some indications in the material on the BLP web page that they did not seal their chamber but instead kept the vacuum pump running and let H gas flow thru the chamber. Can anyone bring clarification to this important point? Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 22:19:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27107; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:16:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:16:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980111061502.28437.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [130.184.14.199] From: "Chetter Hummin" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:15:00 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"8MXyT.0.Rd6.2F6kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Not really. The device is focusing the ZPE energy by absorbing it (like all matter), but transmitting it in a focused direction, along polar lines (like a magnet.) The conductor placed on the top merely counteracts the effects of the ZPE focusing by absorbing and transmitting the ZPE in all directions (like normal conductors). ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:28:40 -0800 (PST) To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: Pre-Tampere superconductor effect? Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com As John S. just reminded, the Tampere effect works (if we can assume that) on nonmagnetic materials, and the effect is seen as a vertical column *above* the device. Now, forgive me if this has been brought up before, but: if the Tampere effect is real; *and* if gravity is a net push from 'above' rather than a pull 'downward'; then doesn't that mean that the Tampere device is providing 'push'? Therefore, it wouldn't be a 'shield' - it would be a (highly directional) energy-output device? If so, that device apparently converts (I suppose) our applied 'normal' energy (the mag field, rotation, applied external exciter fields, etc) into whatever-it-is-that-gives-the-gravity-push. That would have all sorts of interesting ramifications, eh? Dan Quickert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 22:20:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27023; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:16:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:16:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:11:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1e57$b9860cc0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ax8Ip1.0.5c6.aE6kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:53 PM Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) >At 06:44 PM 1/10/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>If you want-need to go bakeout; Sheathed >>Thermocouples and threaded compression >>fittings, Conax. www.conaxbuffalo.com. > >Hey, I've got two heaters in there already...and a temp probe inside and >one on the exterior surface. Yes I know. I think I just need to run it up to ~280C >under vacuum and hold it there all day long or more. (max temp is limited >by the Pb solder used on the feedthrus (m.p. 320C)). That was why I recommended the Conax (T.C.wire) feedthrough glands to get the lead out (of the system). :-) Vapor pressure Data: In Pascals; Log10 P = 5.00 + A + B*T^-1 In Atmospheres; Log10 P = A + B*T^-1 Accurate to +/- 5% A B Pb (solid) 5.643 -10143 Pb (liquid) 4.911 -9701 K (solid) 4.961 -4646 K (liquid) 4.402 -4453 > >Point: There are some indications in the material on the BLP web page that >they did not seal their chamber but instead kept the vacuum pump running >and let H gas flow thru the chamber. Sounds kind of strange that you would be sweeping out your "catalyst". :-) Can anyone bring clarification to >this important point? Regards, Frederick > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 22:54:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00368; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:51:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:51:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:51:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801110651.WAA17621 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: gravity modifiers Resent-Message-ID: <"U9LBL2.0.g5.wl6kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Okay, I see that my previous post generated a response to the part of the original that I wasn't really addressing . But the point I was trying to make got completely lost. I'm really not interested at this point in debating whether anyone's interpretations of the experimental results were valid. (for the record, I don't disbelieve Tampere or Schnurer, I rather tend to believe it's as advertised - but don't want flame from the other side either because I'm not sure I completely disbelieve the sceptics yet :-). so I'll try again with my original thought... The following is based on two assumptions. Rather than debate the merits of the assumptions, could we suspend disbelief for a moment and address whether the conclusion follows? Anyone want to comment on the following? *if* gravity is a push and not a pull, and *if* the Tampere-type devices are causing "less gravity", then would that not mean that the Tampere device is creating (or reflecting) a "push"? So it may be an *emitter* rather than a shield? I _don't_ mean an EM emitter, I mean an emitter of whatever-gives-gravity-its-push . Rick, is that the direction you're headed with talk of 'unshieldable EM effects' ? John, in September you mentioned that you wanted to turn the setup on its side and see if it made thrust - have you done that? You also said in that post that when taken as a whole, the apparatus _together with_ target will "bootstrap up". It would seem most interesting if both that *and* sideways thrust were the case. Can you comment on that? Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 23:35:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04245; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:31:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:31:25 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:27:36 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"h_Lw72.0.321.7L7kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-10 19:32:20 EST, you write: << Significant chamber pressure anomalies were observed in this run without KNO3! Please help us decide what to do next. Obviously something in the chamber is outgassing significantly, especially when the tungsten filament is operating. What could it be? >> Scott, How about running the cell with no KNO3 in vacuo, using both the cartrage heater and the filiment. One thing i noticed in the BLP reports is it seems they run a long filiment supported by four ceramic posts. Such a filiment could be cobbled up from one of those quartz heat lamps, the long thin ones. Also, I have seen these type of lamps used in laser printers and copiers. Regards, Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 10 23:44:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05610; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:43:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:43:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980111014242.00837100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:42:42 -0600 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: <01bd1e57$b9860cc0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"egY-23.0.aN1.WW7kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:11 PM 1/10/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >That was why I recommended the Conax (T.C.wire) >feedthrough glands to get the lead out >(of the system). :-) good idea! I've used similar(identical?) units from Omega in the past and they work very well. If/when this chamber gets a major overhaul I'll switch to that system and that'll give me some more temp probes inside, too. >In Atmospheres; Log10 P = A + B*T^-1 > A B >Pb (solid) 5.643 -10143 so at 300C, I should see about 7E-10 torr from my Pb!? >Sounds kind of strange that you would be sweeping out your "catalyst". :-) Yeah...but they put in 3 GRAMS of it....enough to allow continuous sweeping for many many hours I think. Also we don't know the flow rate...they could have throttled the vac pump way down so the H flow rate thru the chamber was really small...but still the chamber would get maintained at 2 torr. Along about now it would be real nice to have BLP's help on this. I'll email them again. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 00:08:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06859; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:05:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:05:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980111020510.008369b0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:05:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"e7EKt1.0.5h1.br7kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:27 AM 1/11/98 EST, VCockeram wrote: >How about running the cell with no KNO3 in vacuo, using both >the cartrage heater and the filiment. Right on, Vince. I'm going to bake all day Monday and then do another run w/o KNO3 on Tuesday.... >One thing i noticed in the BLP reports is it seems they >run a long filiment supported by four ceramic posts. >Such a filiment could be cobbled up from one of those >quartz heat lamps, the long thin ones. Yeah, I know that lamp type. They're usually hundreds of watts when white hot. I need a filament that gets white hot with only 30 watts....otherwise my chamber will get too hot. The auto brake light filament is about right, I think. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 00:10:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06956; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:06:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:06:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:09:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Resent-Message-ID: <"OrHlL1.0.ci1.Rs7kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:28 PM 1/10/98, Scott Little wrote: >Run 3 results and discussion can be viewed at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun3.html > >Significant chamber pressure anomalies were observed in this run without >KNO3! Please help us decide what to do next. Scott, if you are referring to the university replication here is the rlevent passage (I hope I'm not too late): "The cell reached an equilibrium pressure, approximately 100 Torr, and then hydrogen at 10 psig was admitted to the cell. The valve to the hydrogen source, which was a steel line 4 meters by 0.6 cm OD, was closed off by a valve in front of the regulator during admission. Moreover, it was open for only a couple of seconds in each case. This was done on three separate occasions... One other observation recorded was that the pressure decreased gradually over time, such that after about an hour the pressure returned to the original equilibrium pressure of the cell. It must also be noted that the heat production was ended deliberately in all three cases by pumping the system to 5* 10-3 Torr. It is clear 'excess heat' evolution would have continued in all eases if the system had not been evacuated." Here are some other selected quotes from BlackLight Power Home Page, Experiments and Validations, Final report for period October-December 1996, which are very relevant to prior discussions here: "In three separate trials between 10 and 20 K Joules were generated at a rate of 0.5 Watts, upon the admission of approximately 10-3 moles of hydrogen to the 20cm3 Calvet cell containing a heated platinum filament and KNO3 powder. This is equivalent to the generation of 1*107 J/mole of hydrogen, as compared to 2.5*105 J/mole of hydrogen anticipated from standard hydrogen combustion. Thus the total heats generated appear to be two orders of magnitude too large to be explained by conventional chemistry, but the results are completely consistent with the Mills' model." "RM's theory of hydrino formation requires that both K+ ions and H-atoms are present in the gas phase. In order to generate gaseous K+ ions, KNO3 is placed in a small (2cc) quartz 'boat' inside the calorimeter cell. The boat is heated, to increase the vapor concentration of KNO3, with a platinum filament, which is wound around the boat. A second function of the platinum filament is to generate H-atoms. It is well known that hydrogen molecules in contact with a heated filament will decompose, yielding a relatively high H-atom concentration in the boundary layer around the filament. Thus, according to RM's model, in a cell containing KNO3 in the boat and vapor phase hydrogen, there is a small region in the boundary layer around the heated metal filament which should contain sufficient concentrations of both H-atoms and K+ ions for hydrino formation to occur." "The calorimeter was allowed to equilibrate until a steady baseline existed. The 'hydrino formation' process was initiated by then adding gaseous hydrogen." "... significant heat evolved upon the introduction of hydrogen to the Calvet calorimeter cell. In contrast, no heat was evolved upon the admission of helium." "For these experiments the top of the calorimeter cup/reactor cell was fitted with a Conflat knife edge flange. The top element of the flange is connected to a gas supply system outside the convection oven with a 0.5 cm OD ss tube, and with two welded vacuum high current copper feedthroughs. The feedthroughs were connected on the cup side of the flange to a coiled section of 0.25 mm platinum wire approximately 18 cm in length. Fitted inside the coiled platinum was a small quartz boat into which 200 mg of powdered KN03 were placed." "A partial list of proposed additional experiments is given below: 1) A control experiment consisting of admission of hydrogen to a cell in which 10 watts of power is applied to a platinum filament, but no KNO3 is present. 2) Hydrogen is admitted to a cell containing a platinum filament and KN03 in a boat, but no power is applied to the filament. 3) The experiments are run as described in the present report, but the boat containing KNO3 is at the bottom of the cell, rather than in the center of the platinum coil. 4) The hydrogen admission experiments described above are repeated BUT continued for times sufficient to return the signal to the original baseline. In addition, modifications in the apparatus should be made. First, insulation should be added to improve the stability of the baseline. Second, a quality pressure gauge should be attached to a known volume outside the oven such that all uncertainty regarding the number of moles of hydrogen admitted to the cell can be eliminated. Third, the plumbing should be re-arranged to facilitate 'capture' of gas for analysis using gas chromatography. Fourth, provision should be made to permit pressure to be recorded as a function of time." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 00:21:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19277; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:18:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:18:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:21:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"oPQ-E.0.3j4.D18kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:32 PM 1/10/98, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > > Two particles of unlike charge require a > force to bring them together. > >Wow Horace, > >That was some discussion of Potential; >but I don't understand the above statement. > >Jack Smith Must have been a typo. There's probably plenty of them. I need to get off this free version of Eudora that I 've used for a couple years now, but I'm too cheap. Besides, that wouldn't fix all the momentary mental lapses like the above. Only some good elixer from the fountain of youth might do that! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 00:50:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10634; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:47:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:47:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980111024621.00826750 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:46:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"GaVGu3.0.4c2.AS8kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:09 PM 1/10/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >Scott, if you are referring to the university replication here is the >rlevent passage (I hope I'm not too late): You're certainly not too late, Horace. I did read about the "university" replication. It was only about 0.5 watts excess out of about 10 watts total input. Then I talked to Dr. Farrell who said that Mills et al had developed much better experiments since the university experiment that were sort of like "light bulbs". That's all he would say but, when I saw the various descriptions of the gas-phase experiments that use tungsten filaments (see section 3.3.2 "Isothermal Calorimeter" in http://www.blacklightpower.com/tinsight.html) I decided to go for the 100% excess heat effect! Something nice and big and unambiguous that I could easily measure for a change.... Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:00:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11746; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:58:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:58:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: <34B85152.7B12 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"--hm53.0.Ot2.yc8kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > >> It's a long wire antenna , Frank , observed for timing delays accross >> it's length . > >> The long wire is also an inductance , if you want to equate it to a >> resonant system , in series with a standard capacitor of equal >> reactance at the frequency of the signal. > OK, Jim, I think it's sinking in. Your idea is that a harmonic > oscillator, let's say at its fundamental frequency, is in a way > "all knowing" at any instant at any point on its physical dimensions. > Is this right? Bingo... :-) > Further, the object of your test is to kick it in the butt at one end > and listen to it jerk, instantaneously, at the other end. Is this > roughly right? Well , the acceptable objective , from the skeptical inquirer's viewpoint would be to try to observe the expected _delays_ due to alleged lightspeed limitations ....but if there aren't any we should see what you just described. > To me this is a fascinating concept and might have different > implications at macroscopic sizes than at "atomic" sizes. No matter > now - on with the macroscopic ideas. > I have no problem with the objective of your test rig - only in its > detailed setup. As I have mentioned, I feel that the open wire loop > dressed around your building is TOO COMPLEX to characterize in a simple > test. I wish a harmonic oscillator could be agreed upon that would > have: > 1. A clearly defined one-dimensional length, not coupled to EVERYTHING > in your building. A single-wire line is like an old single wire > telegraph line with earth-ground return, isn't it? It seems to me that > this WOULD work if it were actually stretched out straight. That would be the ideal config , a long , straight run of wire, so that way no one could argue that the signal was taking a shortcut somehow accross the loop , or back through the power wiring or whatever. How about this : We run out 75 feet of magnet wire in a straight line. Then cut two equal lengths of coax of 37.5 feet each and couple them to the scope probes and the opposite ends of the stretched out wire with matching transformers. ________________ | _____ | | | ~~~ | | | |_~~~_| | | Ch1 *(V) Ch2 *(H) TR1 -----|--------|- TR4 _ __ _____________ ____ | | ____ ___________ ______ | )|( COAX LINE )|( )|( COAX LINE )|( | | _)|(_____________)|(____ ____)|(___________)|(_ | | __|__ TR2 __|__ __|__ TR3 __|__ | | --- --- --- --- | | . . . . | V V *-------------------------------------------------------------------* |-------. <- 75 ft run magnet wire -> | \ | / / [device] \ \ | R2 / |------ \ (~) SS1 | __|__ 1mhz __|__ --- --- . . > 2. I am still assuming that what you want is a harmonic oscillator - > if this is so, what's wrong with a half-wave length of coax? Quarter wave will do , won't it? You got just enough. [Snip of stuff about scopes] > Jeeze, I might learn how to use all the functions of my scope if I stick > with this! By the way, how about a mechanical harmonic oscillator > like a stretched slinky? The wave equations are fairly analogous, > right? A Slinky ? How bout a good stiff automobile suspension coil with the shock absorber applying the damping force (resistance) ? Slinkies are a little too wierd . > Slap my wrist if we aren't talking wave equations - I have a > hard time separating this stuff. This is ultimately simpler than that (for me anyway) : Ohm's Law , Kirschoff's rules for current , energy conservation (watts*seconds-joules-ergs etc.) We're going to prove all that applies somehow , even with this theorized strange squiggle on the scope that represents the light speed delay in a bumped oscillator. Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:07:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12132; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:04:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:04:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:07:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"nBljc.0.Uz2.ei8kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:32 PM 1/10/98, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: > > Two particles of unlike charge require a > force to bring them together. > >Wow Horace, > >That was some discussion of Potential; >but I don't understand the above statement. > >Jack Smith Thanks for the correction. I found it. There were a several of them! I reread the post and added a number of things too, while I was at it and sent it to vortex. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:06:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01226; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:01:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:01:02 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: "Francis J. Stenger" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:59:02 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34B85152.7B12 interlaced.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"c8B2o.0.4J.Df8kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 10-Jan-98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Jim Ostrowski wrote: >> >> It's a long wire antenna , Frank , observed for timing delays accross >> it's length . >> >> The long wire is also an inductance , if you want to equate it to a >> resonant system , in series with a standard capacitor of equal >> reactance at the frequency of the signal. >OK, Jim, I think it's sinking in. Your idea is that a harmonic >oscillator, let's say at its fundamental frequency, is in a way >"all knowing" at any instant at any point on its physical dimensions. >Is this right? Further, the object of your test is to kick it in the >butt at one end and listen to it jerk, instantaneously, at the other >end. Is this roughly right? Frank, Joe, I have been very curious about the Smith(cadeucas) coil. JLN, has seemed to have done some nice work with it, for openers, http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/sclxmtr.htm and/or http://members.aol.com/overunity4/html/smithcl.htm but since my old ham gear is long gone; I have a hunch that this device(as an antenna) seems to fit your experiment? -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:06:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01241; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:01:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:01:04 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:04:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: THE MEANING OF POTENTIAL Resent-Message-ID: <"sXrX01.0.FJ.Ef8kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: THE MEANING OF POTENTIAL It is the intent here to portray a classical view of the nature of electrical potential and the propagation of potential in a conductor. It is an attempt to think in simple terms but in terms of first principle physics about the true nature of electrical conduction and potential. For simplicity quantum mechanical considerations must be dismissed. A quantum of charge, regardless of the form of it's quantum wave function, regardless of the psi^2 distribution of the wave function, has a mean location on a macro level, and on an atomic level. For example, it is the separation of mean location of the nucleus and the electron cloud that provides a dipole moment in an insulator in an electrostatic field for example. The charge of a particle is inextricably linked to the mass of a particle, which also has the same mean location. The mean location of mass can not move without the mean location of charge moving, and vice versa. This is so, regardless of the QM interpretation to which you subscribe. The main difference in a classical view and a QM view of conduction is in the quantized response of the lattice to charge motion, or phonons, and the nature of the conduction pathway, i.e. the conduction band. These concepts are necessary to understand resistance, but not the discussion of potential and conduction here. I do not believe these differences are important to this discussion, but perhaps they are, or there are other important differences. However, from here on the discussion is assumed to be at a classical level. It is assumed that this simplification will result in a clearer understanding of the meaning of potential in a conductor. What is the relation of net charge Q and potential V? You can not have one without the other. Charge is simply a count of the number of units of + charged particles minus the number of - charged particles times a utilitarian constant e. In other words, Q is a sum of unbalanced charges. We do not need to deal with (sufficiently locally) balanced charges in determining Q. How do we know which charges to count to determine a Q? The charges to count are typically designated by specifying the volume in which they are located. We speak of a charge on a capacitor plate, or on the spherical terminal of a van de Graff generator. Like charges repel, so in a conductor the unbalanced charges tend to repel each other out to the surface of the conductor. When talking about a static charge in a conductor, we are for the most part talking about a surface with charge distributed upon it. It is this association of charge to a quantity of volume or surface that results in the inextricable link between charge and potential. Since charge is a net value, we are always dealing with a repulsive force in determining the potential of a statically charged conductor. How is the potential derived and what does it mean in a realistic sense? Two particles of like charge require a force to bring them together. Work is done in bringing the like charges from a theoretically infinite distance to some specific distance. Work is expended bringing like charges into proximity, thus energy is stored when unbalanced charge is in proximity. The work done compressing the charges together is a potential energy available at some later time to do work. If there is any net repulsive force on an individual particle free to move it will accelerate in the direction opposite the force. If it is not free to move in all directions, it will move in the direction, of all the possible directions it is free to move, in which the component vector of the force is largest. For this reason, in a conductor with static charge Q>0, every individual net charge has on it a net force in a direction in which the charge is not free to move, i.e. perpendicular to some barrier, such as the edge of the conductor. It is the magnitude of this unbalanced "force at a point" which is the potential of the point. Charges in a conductor or otherwise free to move repel each other and will expend some of their potential energy doing so, in gaining the lowest potential energy possible. The charges are like a bunch of masses connected by repelling springs. The conduction band electrons in a conductor act like a compressible fluid carrying a charge. Raising a static voltage in a conductor requires "compression" of additional charges into the conductor to increase the net unbalanced force on each charge in the conductor and to rearrange the charges in the conductor to a new lowest potential energy state. For example, a van de Graff generator must carry unbalanced charges on a belt up into the terminal sphere by exerting work on the charges over the distance from the brushes to the edge of the sphere. Once taken off the belt the charges mutually repel and rearrange throughout the surface of the sphere. The amount of work to bring in an incremental charge depends on the capacity of the sphere. The larger the sphere, the more distributed the charges, the less net unbalanced force on each charge, the less the potential on the surface of the sphere for a given Q. The less the potential, the less the force on the additional particles coming up the belt, the less work to add charge. The capacity of a sphere is very small. The capacitance of a sphere of diameter d in meters is given by C = d x 5.56x10^-11 Farads. A cylinder or wire has even less capacitance per unit of area. It is for this reason the energy to bring a wire not in a circuit up to a potential is ignored in EE applications, because it is nearly zero. However, it is most important to note that it is not zero! I think a failure to understand this principle leads to all kinds of ridiculous over unity ideas regarding potential and current. More importantly, it erroneously leads to a kind of amorphous ethereal concept of potential as a kind of lightspeed electrostatic field projected in space from one end of a conductor to the other. This is maybe OK as long as the charge distribution remains static. So how does a local change in potential at one end of a conductor travel from one end of the conductor to the other? Not at light's speed in a vacuum! The reason for this is that charges must move in the conductor for potential to propagate. If charges move, and their associated mass is not zero, they must be accelerated. They can not instantly jump to lightspeed. The propagation rate of potential must be less than lightspeed in a conductor. An electromagnetic field can propagate through a coaxial cable or wave guide at the speed of light, but there is no permanent charge displacement involved with such a wave. A permanent change in potential requires permanent charge displacement. The rate of propagation of such a displacement propagated by a specific species of particle, such as the electron, is proportional to the acceleration rate of the charge which, for a given change in force balance, is inversely proportional to the mass associated with the charge. The propagation is dependent on a local charge moving and changing the force balance on neighbors (dV/dT) which then accelerate to move and change (dI/dT) the charge balance on more distant neighbors, etc. Similar arguments apply to holes, which, like phonons, can be viewed as particles with charge +e an apparent mass m*. It is im portant to note that the potential in a wire does not travel due to electrostatic force ranging across the length of a conductor. A simple test of this is to remove a small portion of the conductor, for example one tenth of a long conductor. If 1 volt is applied to one end of the conductor, that potential will not be seen on the other end of the conductor unless the missing segment is replaced. So what about steady state conduction? It seems logical, especially since charge is quantized, to look at steady state conduction as the repetitive constant rate of removal of charge at one end of a conductor and steady state replacement to maintain a specific potential at the other (or vice versa). In this way it is possible to break a conductor into segments and treat the segments in a manner consistent with the whole, or vice versa. A removal of a charge at one end of a segment results in a change in potential being propagated from one end of the segment to the other, which eventually results in charge demand at the other end. Since lots of these events happen simultaneously, i.e. a conductor can be divided into many segments in both series and parallel, there is a continuous and massively parallel steady state current flow through the conductor. This is not to say that every segment contains the same charge or movement of charge. On the contrary, since charges repel, more current can be expected toward the outer surface of a conductor. As electrons travel through each segment some of their momentum and thus some of their energy is transferred to the lattice, thus they leave any particular segment producing less pressure on electrons in the next segment, thus potential difference between segments is a function of flow. Similarly, any particular segment of a wire has its own set of properties, i.e. dimension, resistance, capacitance, and inductance, operating in series or parallel with its neighbors. When the conductor boundary electron flow stops then potentials equalize throughout the conductor. It is interesting that according to this concept that since moving charge has mass, it must have momentum. Charge acceleration can cause the potential to overshoot the balanced potential, then fly back, and create a rippling effect as potential equalizes. It seems logical that, even in the case of a steady current, that a specific lattice would resonate at a particular frequency when charge is flowing in it, just like water flowing in a pipe makes white noise with a characteristic frequency dominant. By these concepts it is also possible for the direction of charge motion and the direction of potential to be momentarily completely opposite due to the charge momentum, especially in very high speed events. This is a condition that has been referred to as negative power (-v*i). I don't see where it is any more negative than a pendulum on the upswing, but maybe it could fool a watt meter. It is novel to think of current as a fluid with mass. An automobile has about a pound of electrons in it. A coulomb has 6.24x10^18 electrons each weighing 9.11x10^-31 kg, or 5.69x10-12 kg/C. So a kilogram is about 1.76x10^11 coulombs, or about 5573 amp-years. So conducting the electrons in an automobile would take about 2500 years at 1 amp. A pound of protons at an amp would take about 16 months, but the electrons in the car, if they could be separated out, would still take 2500 years at an amp. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:20:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13143; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:17:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:17:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:19:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"6jgMz.0.GD3.eu8kq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:59 AM 1/11/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > How about this : > > We run out 75 feet of magnet wire in a straight line. Then cut two > equal lengths of coax of 37.5 feet each and couple them to the scope > probes and the opposite ends of the stretched out wire with matching > transformers. Those matching transformers will put in whopping, and possibly different, time delays won't they? Why not leave them out? Could just use a terminating resistor to avoid reflection noise? Also, triax is supposed to be best for shielding, I think, grounding middle sheath and floating exterior sheath. I'm not sure I understand what the "device" is. Is it an oscillator with a series resistance and bypass switch? -----oscillator-----R1--------R2------- | | ---Sw1----- Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:29:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03173; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:26:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:26:10 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:29:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"C6Yw51.0.Vn.n09kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:59 AM 1/11/98, Chuck Davis wrote: >On 10-Jan-98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >Frank, Joe, I have been very curious about the Smith(cadeucas) coil. >JLN, has seemed to have done some nice work with it, for openers, There was also some possibly relevant discussion here by Volodya of longitudinal transmission work by Ignatiev: "Dear electrodynamics Friends, "I would ask all you one question. Siberian person explained me how he measured the velocity of transmission of the EM energy in Tesla experiment. I have some doubt in correctness of his calculations. I hope all you know a scheme of the famous Tesla experiment on transmission of the energy between two identical installations (the radiators had the form of the ball). He performed two repeating experiments, the first one with the distance between the antennas 100 metres, and the second one with the distance 500 metres. It was detected a signal in the receiving antenna's loop exactly at the frequency of the source antenna (135 kHz). To measure the velocity of the longitudinal EM wave, he compared the phase of the received radio signal to the phase of the basic (sincronizing) signal propagating through the optical fibre from the input generator of the source antenna to the receiving antenna. Because there is a certain time spending to match the signals, he compared the difference between phases shift phi(at 100 metres) - phi(at 500 metres). Since the delaying time will be identical in both cases, he can omit that time from comsideration. Now his calculations: Phases shift at 100 metres between the basic and radio signal: phi1 = 316 degr; ... at 500 metres....: phi2 = 9 degr; Delta(phi) = phi2 - phi1 = (360+9) - 316 = 53 degr; Expected relating phases shift if the velocity of the longitudinal EM wave is c = 3*10^8 m: Delta(phi) = [deltaL*360 degr]/lambda; lambda is the wave length Delta(phi) = 400*360/2214 = 64 degr; So he concluded the velocity of EM wave is bigger than c. However, I think he didn't take into account that the basic signal propagates through the optical fibre with the velocity less than c. So the basic signal reaches the receiving antenna in time: L1/v The radio signal....: L1/c ; here, v is the velocity of the basic signal in the optical fibre. Therefore, the radio signal will reach the receiver faster than the basic signal will do and it will seem that the velocity of the longitudinal EM radiation is bigger than of transversal one. Please, estimate the above methods and if possible, answer me until tomorrow morning. I would like to discussit with siberian person. Warm regards to all, Volodya" Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 01:37:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03835; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:35:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:35:53 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:35:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199801110935.BAA06069 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: gravity modifiers Resent-Message-ID: <"sNzJ21.0.rx.u99kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >*if* gravity is a push and not a pull, and *if* the Tampere-type devices are >causing "less gravity", then would that not mean that the Tampere device is >creating (or reflecting) a "push"? So it may be an *emitter* rather than a >shield? I _don't_ mean an EM emitter, I mean an emitter of >whatever-gives-gravity-its-push . First of all, IMO, gravity is a push. It could not be anything else. Imagine that you have a small boat on the ocean. how do you push it if it is adrift? Remove wind from the example and only consider the interaction of the boat with the water. There are two ways. First, you can have a flow of water, such as would be coming out of a river into the ocean, say, the Amazon. Second, you can have waves such as are all over the ocean. If you have two boats near one another on the ocean, they will be pushed toward one another due to both filtering out wave energy, this is well known. That wave filtering mechanism is, gravity. The waves are frequency shifted waves arriving from distant locations across the universe, and the waves cannot frequency couple to our matter wave oscillations, so they can only interact via a push due to a partial filtering. The filtering takes place at the Planck scale, so even the earth is virtually transparent (ie, in the center of E-10 m diameter atoms you have a Planck scale E-35 meter region where the aether resonance undergoes a state transition and that is where the filtering originates from). As for the Tampere devices, they must be reflecting the incident waves, or, pumping the aether. Imagine the boat near the outlet of the Amazon. And the waves from the ocean pushing the boat up the Amazon delta. The wave interaction will push the boat up stream until the flow velocity offsets the wave acceleration thrust. At that point the wave push is in equilibrium with the aether flow thrust. This is more important with stars, but it applies to the Tampere experiment too. To induce anti gravity, I think you must pump the aether via an aether turbine. They either are reflecting the incident wave energy or they are pumping the aether, those are the only two possibilities. I don't yet know which it is, but I suspect reflection at this point. Time will tell. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 02:03:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05216; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:58:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:58:49 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34B887E4.57526380 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:50:44 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"prQYq3.0.PH1.OV9kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: In order to generate gaseous K+ ions, KNO3 is placed in a small (2cc) quartz 'boat' inside the calorimeter cell. Hi Scott, Not knowing the BLP secret for this part of the process, the above container is the best choice, although the right metal alloy would probably generate much more K+ per unit time. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 02:05:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05679; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:04:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:04:48 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:06:14 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"v_mTn1.0.aO1._a9kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:59 AM 1/11/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: >> How about this : >> >> We run out 75 feet of magnet wire in a straight line. Then cut two >> equal lengths of coax of 37.5 feet each and couple them to the scope >> probes and the opposite ends of the stretched out wire with matching >> transformers. > Those matching transformers will put in whopping, and possibly different, > time delays won't they? Why ? I'm more worried about the transmission line delays being equivalent . > Why not leave them out? Could just use a terminating resistor to avoid > reflection noise? Yeah , maybe . > Also, triax is supposed to be best for shielding, I think, grounding middle > sheath and floating exterior sheath. It seemed like more fun to use what we have on hand. > I'm not sure I understand what the "device" is. Is it an oscillator with a > series resistance and bypass switch? OOOPS! I just noticed I goofed on that part's location , I'll fix it here with a new drawing pasted below: ________________ | _____ | | | ~~~ | | | |_~~~_| | | Ch1 *(V) Ch2 *(H) TR1 -----|--------|- TR4 _ __ _____________ ____ | | ____ ___________ ______ | )|( COAX LINE )|( )|( COAX LINE )|( | | _)|(_____________)|(____ ____)|(___________)|(_ | | __|__ TR2 __|__ __|__ TR3 __|__ | | --- --- --- --- | | . . . . | V V *-------------------------------------------------------------------* | <- 75 ft run magnet wire -> .-----------| \ 4066 o / / R1 Cmos -> / \ \ sw o R2 / | | \ (~) SS1 ` ----------| __|__ 1mhz __|__ --- --- . . The 4066 could be triggered with a 555 timer or something. Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 03:15:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12791; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:11:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:11:48 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:13:15 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Format for ascii drawings? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0_ri7.0.n73.pZAkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts, My ascii drawings look ok from here when I see them in my newsreader , but when I put them in Write in Windows they're all obliterated on the right hand side. My old xtree file viewer displays them correctly. Windows sucks. Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 03:34:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA15940; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:33:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:33:03 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:36:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Resent-Message-ID: <"dANIo2.0.ru3.ktAkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:28 PM 1/10/98, Scott Little wrote: >Run 3 results and discussion can be viewed at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun3.html > There seems to be an error relating to the photo - at least it doesn't show up via my Mac Netscape (Release 3). Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 04:56:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22617; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:53:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 04:53:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34B8C0B1.CB3A9782 ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:53:07 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Format for ascii drawings? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vo5tJ2.0.IX5.b3Ckq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You need to do your ascii drawings in variable width font, But then it won't work for people using fixed width font. People who have a mail program in which you can choose fixed or variable width like netscape 4. can switch to fixed so it comes out right. John Berry Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Vorts, > > My ascii drawings look ok from here when I see them in my newsreader , but > when I put them in Write in Windows they're all obliterated on the right > hand side. > > My old xtree file viewer displays them correctly. > > Windows sucks. > > Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 06:51:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00925; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 06:47:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 06:47:46 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:43:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1e9f$580fb660$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"8Qv_V2.0.NE.HkDkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 12:08 AM Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) FJS wrote: >>In Atmospheres; Log10 P = A + B*T^-1 >> A B >>Pb (solid) 5.643 -10143 > >so at 300C, I should see about 7E-10 torr from my Pb!? Yes. I get 6.64E-10 Torr for 573 K, and 992 Torr at the 2023 K boiling point. Close is okay? Thats out of the "Chemical Bible (72nd ed.1991-92). In all honesty, wishful thinking aside, it just might be a LL (Caloron) Gas (Plasma-Pairs)in part. The binding energy of a pair of leptons with a rest energy of 0.5 ev or so wouldn't be much, and when I get to thinking about the Ion Gauge "surge", that is what you would expect from charges that are a million times lighter than electrons hanging on to gas molecules adsorbed on the Gauge filament when it is cold, and traveling near c when you turn on the gauge power. For a 7.0 Torr increase (about 2.5E17 particles) after hours of filament operation putting out about 1.0E19 photons/joule is not a lot of yield (and probably continuous annihilation is going on). Are we all in "Denial" of something that has been there for all time? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 07:34:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05561; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:31:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:31:11 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Light Leptons and the Nobel in Physics. Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:28:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1ea5$85e73080$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"VLatn2.0.pM1.-MEkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex For those with aspirations of picking up a Nobel Prize, it's right there for the first to isolate the Light Leptons (Calorons). No Bullshit, just accepted Standard Physics. There should be Pair Production at n*Me*Alpha^n' where Me is the rest mass of the electron. A lightbulb-simple setup, perhaps a bit of H2, and low level magnetic fields and a plate coated with a suitable Phosphor. ESPI has hundreds of Phosphors in their Catalog. www.espi-metals.com. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 08:20:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12990; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:17:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:17:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34B9B1A0.F60 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:01:04 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Format for ascii drawings? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fp-oz.0.oA3.62Fkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > Vorts, > > My ascii drawings look ok from here when I see them in my newsreader , but > when I put them in Write in Windows they're all obliterated on the right > hand side. > > My old xtree file viewer displays them correctly. > > Windows sucks. > > Jim O. Jim, Change your font in Write to courier. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 08:45:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18375; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:42:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:42:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:44:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Format for ascii drawings? Resent-Message-ID: <"EfTE72.0.-U4.SPFkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 1:53 AM 1/12/98, John Berry wrote: >You need to do your ascii drawings in variable width font, But then it won't >work for people using fixed width font. It is nearly impossible to do good drawings in variable width (proportional) fonts because the columns will not line up. Also, various proportional fonts have differing proportions, so the drawings still come out bad for some users, but *any* fixed width font will show a good drawing. Fixed is the only way to go. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 08:57:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20345; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:55:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:55:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:57:55 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Light Leptons and the Nobel in Physics. Resent-Message-ID: <"5xq172.0.nz4.3cFkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:28 AM 1/11/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >To: Vortex > >For those with aspirations of picking up a Nobel Prize, it's right there for >the first to >isolate the Light Leptons (Calorons). > >No Bullshit, just accepted Standard Physics. > >There should be Pair Production at n*Me*Alpha^n' where Me is the rest mass >of the electron. > >A lightbulb-simple setup, perhaps a bit of H2, >and low level magnetic fields and a plate coated with a suitable Phosphor. >ESPI has hundreds of Phosphors in their Catalog. > >www.espi-metals.com. > >Regards, Frederick If light leptons can fill up a vacuum, but still have charge +-e, then they should impede electrons in TV tubes, x-ray tubes etc., and should have been detected years ago in vacuum tube research? It is too bad there can not be a test that proves they do not exist, if they do not exist. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 09:00:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20671; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:58:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:58:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B8FA00.7029 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:57:36 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BpZEK1.0.t25.oeFkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > >> How about this : > >> > >> We run out 75 feet of magnet wire in a straight line. Then cut two > >> equal lengths of coax of 37.5 feet each and couple them to the scope > >> probes and the opposite ends of the stretched out wire with matching > >> transformers. > On ascii drawings - I have similar trouble, Jim. (I am now set for variable width font in my Netscape 3 Mail system - thanks for the info, John Berry!) Your drawing was jumbled in my mail "read" window , Jim, but looked good in my mail "send" window). OK, I like the evolution of the circuit you show with the 75 ft run of straight wire, but...... First, I hate to cut our coax in half if we don't need to! Let me get clear on your focus on the open single-wire line. Do you think we need a line with air dielectric to show your effect? I think that even a single-wire, earth ground line will have a velocity factor less than 1, right? The handbook says our coax has a velocity factor of 0.66 - which I checked with: signal velocity = 1 / sqr(L * C) , which checked fine. The single wire line has a distributed inductance (as does the coax) which is probably fairly uniform. To get a uniform distributed capacitance, we would need to watch the dressing of the line relative to the surroundings. For a 75 foot run I guess you could just stretch the wire with no supports except at its ends, right? But we are still left with the problem (for me) that the single- wire line WILL be a fairly good radiator which will tend to fog up the signal transmission path. Your setup with the equal-length coaxs and identical (adressing Horace's point) matching xformers sounds OK to a signal dummy like me. IF!!!!! the FTL effect would be expected for transmission in the coax dielectric (where c_line is 0.66 c_vac) just as it would for xmission in the air-single-wire line (where c_line is > than 0.9 but < 1.0 c_vac) , then I would think we loop the coax, shield the instruments and let the signals roar back and fourth thru the coax - FTL and all. We need to discuss this whole area more, I think. Moving ahead here, to something common to both lines: If we pick an electrical 1/2 wave length of either type of line, we could try to excite so the current had a node at each end and the voltage had a loop at each end. The end voltages would be 180 deg out of phase - a voltage node would be at the center of the line. This seems messy to have the end voltages 180 out of phase although I know we could invert the signal if necessary. A full-wave line would have the voltage loops in phase at the line ends with a current node in the center and both ends. If we drive the line at the ends (HELP) do we need some kind of matching components between the signal generator and the line so we don't mess up the line's free oscillation?? Since we have voltage loops at the line ends, don't we need to MIMIMIZE the loading of the line at both ends to keep the fundamental strong? OK, the scopes have high input impedance so that's good, right? Now, either type of line (single-wire or coax) both have distributed inductance AND capacitance - that's why they form harmonic oscillators. So, why do we need to add any components (lumped capacitors, etc.) to one end - doesn't this just mess up our nice harmonic oscillator? Isn't all we need provided by keeping the "far" end of the line open (except for the very light scope load) and then kicking it by a quick load to ground thru the 4066 switch and a resistor to ground - this resistor still being large enough to just "pip" the system (>>> larger than the characteristic imp. of the line) and not load the line enough to upset the standing oscillation? I seem to have left the 1/4 wave line in the dust somewhere - please bring it back on line with a general discussion of my points of confusion above. Chewing away--------- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 09:08:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19156; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:01:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:01:28 -0800 Message-ID: <34B8FAF9.41C56A2A ro.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:01:45 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Format for ascii drawings? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cL2931.0.9h4.dhFkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Vorts, > > My ascii drawings look ok from here when I see them in my newsreader , > but > when I put them in Write in Windows they're all obliterated on the > right > hand side. > > My old xtree file viewer displays them correctly. > > Windows sucks. > > Jim O. Jim, If you'll click on "Edit" then click on "Select all" then change the font to "courier new" ( a fixed-width font), your ascii art should look right. If this doesn't completely solve the problem, try setting your page margins a bit wider as well. Good luck! -- Have a Good Day, Patrick V. Reavis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 09:10:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21850; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:07:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:07:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B8FB04.5B87 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:01:56 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Format for ascii drawings? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fLdjR3.0.EL5.SnFkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > *any* fixed width font will > show a good drawing. > > Fixed is the only way to go. > Thanks, Horace - fixed it is! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 09:10:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19441; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:03:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:03:21 -0800 Message-Id: <34B8F5DA.4236C3AC verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:39:54 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity modifiers References: <199801110651.WAA17621 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rrzUK3.0.hl4.OjFkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: [snip] > *if* gravity is a push and not a pull, and *if* the Tampere-type devices are > causing "less gravity", then would that not mean that the Tampere device is > creating (or reflecting) a "push"? So it may be an *emitter* rather than a > shield? I _don't_ mean an EM emitter, I mean an emitter of > whatever-gives-gravity-its-push . The same difficulty is exist with the "push-gravity" as the "pull gravity" to explain why the modification area is a column instead of a cone. It is almost impossible to thought the SC create a cylenderic beam by reflecting the "push" coming from any dir ection. Reflection model is also failing to explain why the SC setup is not pushed down and even getting lighter with the F. N. Rounds experiment. If this column effect is real and the modification is precisely gravitational, we need a new, radical model for the gravity. This effect could not be explain with models (pull or push) which explain other gravitational interactions. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 09:13:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21177; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:12:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:12:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34B8FD71.FB10ED82 ro.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:12:17 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Format for ascii drawings? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EH3NF1.0.pA5.WrFkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Vorts, > > My ascii drawings look ok from here when I see them in my newsreader , > but > when I put them in Write in Windows they're all obliterated on the > right > hand side. > > My old xtree file viewer displays them correctly. > > Windows sucks. > > Jim O. Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition (And my apologies to Bill Gates /;^}> ) -- Have a Good Day, Patrick V. Reavis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 09:19:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22201; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:17:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:17:58 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Light Leptons and the Nobel in Physics. Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:14:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1eb4$70be2ce0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2j6aR1.0.nQ5.4xFkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 9:18 AM Subject: Re: Light Leptons and the Nobel in Physics. >At 8:28 AM 1/11/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>To: Vortex >> >>For those with aspirations of picking up a Nobel Prize, it's right there for >>the first to >>isolate the Light Leptons (Calorons). >> >>No Bullshit, just accepted Standard Physics. >> >>There should be Pair Production at n*Me*Alpha^n' where Me is the rest mass >>of the electron. >> >>A lightbulb-simple setup, perhaps a bit of H2, >>and low level magnetic fields and a plate coated with a suitable Phosphor. >>ESPI has hundreds of Phosphors in their Catalog. >> >>www.espi-metals.com. >> >>Regards, Frederick > > >If light leptons can fill up a vacuum, but still have charge +-e, then they >should impede electrons in TV tubes, x-ray tubes etc., Tell what,Horace, stand out in front of something moving at millions meters/second or more weighing a million times as much as you do, and see how much YOU IMPEDE IT! Ever though about getting a job as a speed-bump at Wal-mart? :-) and should have >been detected years ago in vacuum tube research? > >It is too bad there can not be a test that proves they do not exist, if >they do not exist. There is a SIMPLE TEST. wake up. FJS > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 10:32:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01280; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:30:59 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"P4L4r2.0.vJ.HzGkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:57 AM 1/11/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >Your setup with the equal-length coaxs >and identical (adressing Horace's point) matching xformers sounds OK >to a signal dummy like me. [snip] One reason I brought up that objection was that even two calibrated scope probes of different kinds but same length, of about 6 feet, can produce a time delay difference. Maybe one way to check the arrangement is to simply connect the far ends of the cables together on a bench and put a test signal in at different frequencies and look at the x-y phase plot to see that it is linear? Could do similar test on final configuration, by just putting two ends of coax to same point. Am curious as to why you are using ground and not a return cable? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 11:52:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16183; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:48:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:48:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980111134903.00834b80 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:49:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7mS6y3.0.ny3.f8Ikq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:36 AM 1/11/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >>Run 3 results and discussion can be viewed at: >> >>http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun3.html >There seems to be an error relating to the photo - at least it doesn't show >up via my Mac Netscape (Release 3). It doesn't show up at all!? Try it again now...I made a subtle change that makes it work better on Netscape. I would like to hear privately from other Vortexers as to whether or not the image at the above address looks "right" or not. For example, it should have dotted gridlines running both horizontally and vertically in the graph area. I myself am having a little trouble with Netscape mis-interpreting the .gif file and leaving out some of the details. Curiously when choose "View Image (run3.gif)" from the right mouse button menu (condolences to the Mac-ites) the image comes in fine....it's just when it's integrated into the page that it looks "ragged". Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 11:52:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16169; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:48:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:48:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980111133653.008274d0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:36:53 -0600 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: <01bd1e9f$580fb660$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QCIUD.0.Qy3.c8Ikq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:43 AM 1/11/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >In all honesty, wishful thinking aside, it just >might be a LL (Caloron) Gas (Plasma-Pairs)in part. Considering the near-certainty that El Nino is caused by a tenuous plasma of light leptons floating out over the Pacific ocean, I'm sure you are right about LL's causing the pressure increase in my chamber.... Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 12:22:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21210; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:18:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:18:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980111151639.0078052c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:16:39 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980111134903.00834b80 mail.eden.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sA_0n2.0.KB5.LaIkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your problem pic is jpg, whereas the graph sucessfully which Netscape shows is gif. Might try converting. Mitchell Swartz At 01:49 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 02:36 AM 1/11/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>>Run 3 results and discussion can be viewed at: >>> >>>http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/blprun3.html > >>There seems to be an error relating to the photo - at least it doesn't show >>up via my Mac Netscape (Release 3). > >It doesn't show up at all!? Try it again now...I made a subtle change that >makes it work better on Netscape. > >I would like to hear privately from other Vortexers as to whether or not >the image at the above address looks "right" or not. For example, it >should have dotted gridlines running both horizontally and vertically in >the graph area. I myself am having a little trouble with Netscape >mis-interpreting the .gif file and leaving out some of the details. >Curiously when choose "View Image (run3.gif)" from the right mouse button >menu (condolences to the Mac-ites) the image comes in fine....it's just >when it's integrated into the page that it looks "ragged". > > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 12:32:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24337; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:31:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:31:15 -0800 Message-ID: <34B92C50.6F32 gorge.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:32:16 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) References: <199801111257.EAA22821 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kMT7j3.0.8y5.HmIkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > A second function of the platinum > filament is to generate H-atoms. It is well known that hydrogen molecules > in contact with a heated filament will decompose, yielding a relatively > high H-atom concentration in the boundary layer around the filament. Maybe we are seeing H2 = H + H, in addition to outgassing. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 12:48:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20031; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:45:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:45:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:38:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Gravity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tA8Zn3.0.tu4.KzIkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., In no particular order : a] I, for one, do NOT know what gravity is. b] The gravity research has severly hurt me financially, I cannot even pay the back rent on the dewar. We have not 'turned it on its side' yet. Even to do a run I have to arrange to borrow a scale. We have reproducible results. Many have SAID, even in 'public' on Vo, the can put their hands on big dollars, right away if we can show reproducible results, but this has not happened, even though we captured it on video tape and this was aired on German Educational TV several times. I have paid to have PAL format converted to NTSC. I could send one to any party which can deliver, but I am not holding my breath. So no more on this except I know I am not alone, and I am not crying 'poor boy', the work costs money, and those with disposable liquid income or funds do not generally spend for primary work. One or two notable examples on Vo have made contribution to this effort, for which I am grateful. Bottom line, it goes slow, it is like owning a boat or airplane ... it will continuously sink money. There are others who have posted to Vo, or written to me, who have spent more on investigating 'Vo stuff' such as energy related. This method will NOT do O/U, as far as I know... it requires energy to run, far more than you can get out by turning a wheel or moving a fluid. c] One MODEL ... and analog, if you will, but NOT an explanation is to think of the earth as a transluscent hollow sphere. There is a light on the inside. If this 'Light' shines on something then there is gravitational attraction. If the YBCO disk is like a neutral density filter then it casts a 'pale shadow' .... of about a 2% reduction in the magnitude of gravity. I have asked "does dark [or darkeness] fall off with the square of the distance?" In my opinion this is in NO WAY what happens .... but is is a fair, and by fair I mean 'just OK as opposed to grand and perfect' type of a "picture model" .... not a model of what happens, but a model to describe observed effects only. d] in closing [for now :) ...] I do not know if gravity pushes out or in. In charge could be exhibited as radial coherent effect, then a 'transluscent neutral density 2% filter' would exhibit a maybe similar empirical effect on two attracting charged spheres. Wish I could help more.... but I don't KNOW more. e] The immediate marketable application of a 2% modification is for satellite station keeping. This has a good chance of success from observation so far. But there is a LONG way to go and negative funds to spend on it. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 14:12:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03168; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:07:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:07:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B9424D.29F3 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:06:05 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ItB8f3.0.Pn.0AKkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Your snipped suggestions sound good to me, Horace. > > Am curious as to why you are using ground and not a return cable? > I'm not sure I understand which point you're asking about, Horace. For myself, I would define the test path with a length of coax line acting as a "standing wave container", shielded from the outside world. As I meant to show on my ascii "loop" sketch, I would hold all shields, instrument cases, etc. at local "building ground" if I could. Then, I would feel OK with bending the coax into a gentle loop so the ends could be located close together near the electronic "complex" deployed along a work bench. It seems to me that the well-shielded coax configuration would act just fine as an extended harmonic oscillator - which I think is what Jim wants to test. I like it because I would feel the only communication path from one end to the other would be along the length of the coax. This is assuming that the signal generator talks TO ONLY ONE END OF THE COAX and that the scope pickups have negligible effect on the standing wave on the coax. This leaves, then, the problem of "pinging" one end of the line with a short pulse - much faster than the standing wave but within scope range- and catching the time delay (CONVENTIONAL VIEW) or NO TIME DELAY (I THINK, JIM'S VIEW). This may mean that the scope channels would need to be triggered to sweep and capture the wave forms at both ends of the line during the pulse event. (This might be a pulse load to ground through a fast switch in series with a non-reactive resistor. This is not what Jim shows in his schematic, but whatever would work would be OK. My gut feeling is that there WOULD be a delay due to the SOL limitation but I'm trying to make a real focused "suspension of belief" here because of Jim's description of his initial "open wire loop" result. Also, this is Jim's baby and, with my greenhorn status with electronics, unless Jim agrees with the setup, any test will miss the mark. I have asked Jim to discuss the detail of why the single-line system might be preferred over my pet coax system. If he feels there is some kind of FTL communication going on ONLY IN CERTAIN transmission systems - then this would be a reason to object to a major modification like I suggested. I guess the straight line would work if done with great care and cross checks on the scope taps - as you suggest. It still seems, to me, to be a sort of messy way to do the job. The thing that gets me - and something I know nothing about - is how all this might tie in with the ideas on non-locality we hear about in relation to quantum mechanics. Another thing that fascinates me is just what the universe looks like from a reference frame moving with a photon? In that reference frame is the universe of zero size? Is a photon "everywhere" at once? Maybe this provides a loophole for FTL communication. Maybe I should remember my "interested amateur" status and let Jim define the test. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 14:22:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05804; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980111161954.0083e530 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:19:54 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 - photo prob In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"l0el6.0.bQ1.-MKkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:36 AM 1/11/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >There seems to be an error relating to the photo.... Oh!...the _photo_! Seems I forgot to upload that one...no wonder you couldn't read it. It's up there now. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 14:23:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05977; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:21:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:21:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34B93E7A.AB08503A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:49:46 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: OFF TOPIC: Mars Face on 191st meeting of AAS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1A_LK3.0.IT1.WNKkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. Tom Van Flandern had presented his hypotesis on Planet V, Mars and its connection to Cydonia artfacts on 191st national meeting of American Astronomical Society at 7 Jan 1998. Session 27 - Planets. Oral session, Wednesday, January 07 Lincoln, [27.04] New Evidence of an Artificial Origin for Cydonia on Mars T. Van Flandern (Meta Research and Univ. of Maryland) at http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v29n5/aas191/abs/S027004.html Its full article is found online at http://www.metaresearch.org/mrb/cydonia/homepage.htm Must read. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 14:22:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17455; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:18:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:18:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:18:33 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Used electromagnet for the hauling (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"siBoz1.0.YG4.zKKkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forwarded from physics teaching discussion. The 12" probably refers to the pole size. Therefor the entire device is probably many hundreds of pounds. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:34:48 -0600 (CST) From: "David A. Cornell" Reply-To: phys-l atlantis.uwf.edu To: phys-l atlantis.uwf.edu Subject: Used electromagnet for the hauling Harvey-Wells Magnion 12-inch electromagnet, 3-inch gap, Model HSR-1365B Power Supply, modified (1985) for series current regulation. Need to move to make place for another magnet and spectrometer for 60 MHz pulsed proton NMR work. Used, as is, yours for the hauling. Contact David Cornell, Physics Department Principia College, Elsah, IL 62028, E-mail: dcorn prin.edu (not the listserv!), or phone 618-374-5293. ****************************************************************************** David A. Cornell Chair, Physics Department Professor of physics Society of Physics Students Principia College Chapter Advisor Elsah, IL 62028 USA Zone Eight Councilor Tel: 618-374-5293 (office) FAX: 618-374-5122 618-374-1006 (home) e-mail: dcorn prin.edu ****************************************************************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 15:11:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27282; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:02:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:02:56 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:52:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1edb$2cbd0c60$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"3ClOQ.0.ef6.U-Kkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 12:16 PM Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) >At 07:43 AM 1/11/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>In all honesty, wishful thinking aside, it just >>might be a LL (Caloron) Gas (Plasma-Pairs)in part. > >Considering the near-certainty that El Nino is caused by a tenuous plasma >of light leptons floating out over the Pacific ocean, I'm sure you are >right about LL's causing the pressure increase in my chamber.... Don't be so sure that the LLs are not involved in atmospheric electrical effects, say like an afternoon thunderstorm etc. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Scott > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 15:16:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13283; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:10:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:10:16 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP run3 - photo prob Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:06:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1ee5$8163fe40$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"KopqA3.0.PF3.J5Lkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 3:01 PM Subject: Re: BLP run3 - photo prob >At 02:36 AM 1/11/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>There seems to be an error relating to the photo.... > >Oh!...the _photo_! Seems I forgot to upload that one...no wonder you >couldn't read it. It's up there now. What you see is what you you get? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 15:37:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16693; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:32:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:32:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B955F4.A74AC1BC ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:29:56 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) References: <01bd1edb$2cbd0c60$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"unmT61.0.l44.rPLkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please excuse my ignorance on the subject but what is a light lepton?Does it mean Light as radiation or as of little weight? If it means of little weight that means you are saying light lepton and lepton means 'little one' anyway! Do you include all leptons? (electron, muon, tau, and neutrinos?) Is this related to soft electron or soft particle theories? Where is the experimental evidence for light leptons? Thanks, John Berry > >>In all honesty, wishful thinking aside, it just > >>might be a LL (Caloron) Gas (Plasma-Pairs)in part. > > > >Considering the near-certainty that El Nino is caused by a tenuous plasma > >of light leptons floating out over the Pacific ocean, I'm sure you are > >right about LL's causing the pressure increase in my chamber.... > > Don't be so sure that the LLs are not involved in atmospheric electrical > effects, say like an afternoon thunderstorm etc. :-) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 16:16:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09033; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:13:55 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:08:17 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: 30 year lamp In-Reply-To: <01bd1eec$f94c8a60$LocalHost default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wEOxX2.0._C2.11Mkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Was this the same flourescent tube in use for 30 years? !!! J On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Berry > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 3:54 PM > Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) > > > >Please excuse my ignorance on the subject but what is a light lepton?Does > it > >mean Light as radiation or as of little weight? > >If it means of little weight that means you are saying light lepton and > lepton > >means 'little one' anyway! > >Do you include all leptons? (electron, muon, tau, and neutrinos?) > > Yes. All spin 1/2 particles that obey Fermi-Dirac statistics in the unbound > state. The neutrino is the puzzling exception, but Might > be a bound LL pair with net spin 1/2. > > But, I really don't know if anyone has actually measured the spin of a > neutrino, so I'm betting > on it being a bound LL pair with net spin zero. :-) > > I changed a pair of 15 watt fluorescent bulbs > in a 3/4 bath that had been in use for 30 years > to a new less-red spectrum. Up until that time > you could always expect an electric shock when > going from th e "potty" to the sink faucet. > > With the new fluorescents, zip after months. > > Regards, Frederick > > >Is this related to soft electron or soft particle theories? > >Where is the experimental evidence for light leptons? > > > > > >Thanks, John Berry > > > >> >>In all honesty, wishful thinking aside, it just > >> >>might be a LL (Caloron) Gas (Plasma-Pairs)in part. > >> > > >> >Considering the near-certainty that El Nino is caused by a tenuous > plasma > >> >of light leptons floating out over the Pacific ocean, I'm sure you are > >> >right about LL's causing the pressure increase in my chamber.... > >> > >> Don't be so sure that the LLs are not involved in atmospheric electrical > >> effects, say like an afternoon thunderstorm etc. :-) > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 16:19:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09798; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:17:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:17:00 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:16:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199801120016.QAA11606 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: gravity modifiers Resent-Message-ID: <"hkKsL.0.qO2.V3Mkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dan Quickert wrote: >[snip] > >> *if* gravity is a push and not a pull, and *if* the Tampere-type devices are >> causing "less gravity", then would that not mean that the Tampere device is >> creating (or reflecting) a "push"? So it may be an *emitter* rather than a >> shield? I _don't_ mean an EM emitter, I mean an emitter of >> whatever-gives-gravity-its-push . > >The same difficulty is exist with the "push-gravity" as the "pull gravity" to explain why the modification area is a column instead of a cone. It is almost impossible to thought the SC create a cylenderic beam by reflecting the "push" coming from any direction. Reflection model is also failing to explain why the SC setup is not pushed down and even getting lighter with the F. N. Rounds experiment. > >If this column effect is real and the modification is precisely gravitational, we need a new, radical model for the gravity. This effect could not be explain with models (pull or push) which explain other gravitational interactions. >hamdi ucar Greetings Hamdi; No, you don't need a radical new model for gravity, you just need the correct one. The columnar effect may be proof that the phenomena is indeed, an aether pump rather than aether wave reflections. The reflections should affect gravitation at all angles, but an aether pump should work exactly the same way as it does at the surface of the sun when aether breaches out of large emissions, observed with SOHO instruments. That phenomena leads to the formation of an aether vortex, sort of like a fountain, or a smoke ring. The column is centered on the fountain column. They should also find that there is a magnetic field associated with that fountain with the pole directed along the column axis. They built the first aether propulsion system, a form of jet turbine that will be common place in the distant future, just as Otto cycle motors are today (though now called automobiles!) the problem is, they don't understand what it was that they did to acheive the phenomena or how to work with aether vortices to amplify the effect. It is all very comical to me. But then I am just a lunatic in the mountains and matter consists of particles and force fields, and behaves according to magical and mysterious quantum mechanical "Laws". We know this to be the case, because we have acheived tremendous accuracy in our measurements, just as had Ptolemy centuries ago when he could magically predict eclipses and the onset of retrograde motions of the planets!!!!!! Neither of those theories were based on understanding, but rather assertions that were absurd. Yet their prowess in predictive efficacy fooled everyone into believing that nature was unpredictable and magical. Matter does not alter its behavior due to our gaze, the instruments we use to gaze with do when the blast electrons with high energy photons to see which slit they went through. And gravity is not a pull, as there are no strings attached to my matter. It is a wave filtering phenomena and I am a bundle of waves! Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 16:24:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09310; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:15:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:15:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980111191313.00786e70 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:13:13 +0000 To: Scott Little From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980111163408.00829770 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980111151639.0078052c world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19980111134903.00834b80 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ex6lx2.0.9H2.A2Mkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott: At 04:34 PM 1/11/98 -0600, you wrote: >How do you like the latest run? I captured a decent baseline before and >after the actual power input period. The calibration is too short for starters. It should be half of the time scale, or a reasonable fraction thereabout. Take a look at one of our excess energy runs at http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html =============== >I continue to be very pleased with the performance of this particular >calorimeter. I have used it on a variety of experiments and it always >seems to get within 2 percent, or +/- 1 watt (whichever is larger). In the >next 2-3 months I will be writing some reports which will include a >detailed description of this calorimeter and some of the work I've done >with it. > You might not be able to deconvolve the physics and material and nuclear science unless you get a serious handle on the baseline AND then move methodically to investigate what is going on in ANY of the expts which you do. In summary, suggest doing one (1) thing each run, and after an adequate baseline. Realize that this is time consuming, and requires patience, but it might deserve consideration. Good luck in any case. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 17:14:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29676; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:03:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:03:14 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Fw: 30 year lamp Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:49:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1ef4$01883880$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5eO3_.0.WF7.ElMkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 5:13 PM Subject: 30 year lamp > > > > Was this the same flourescent tube in use for 30 years? !!! Yes,John. The 3/4 "utility bath" didn't get used all that much and the starters needed replacing so I went ahead and changed out the bulbs. They are now in a landfill. Some of the 14, 4 ft.Two-tube 40 watt fluorescents that are in my basement are still in use after 35 years. Regards, Frederick > > > J > >On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Berry >> To: vortex-l eskimo.com >> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 3:54 PM >> Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) >> >> >> >Please excuse my ignorance on the subject but what is a light lepton?Does >> it >> >mean Light as radiation or as of little weight? >> >If it means of little weight that means you are saying light lepton and >> lepton >> >means 'little one' anyway! >> >Do you include all leptons? (electron, muon, tau, and neutrinos?) >> >> Yes. All spin 1/2 particles that obey Fermi-Dirac statistics in the unbound >> state. The neutrino is the puzzling exception, but Might >> be a bound LL pair with net spin 1/2. >> >> But, I really don't know if anyone has actually measured the spin of a >> neutrino, so I'm betting >> on it being a bound LL pair with net spin zero. :-) >> >> I changed a pair of 15 watt fluorescent bulbs >> in a 3/4 bath that had been in use for 30 years >> to a new less-red spectrum. Up until that time >> you could always expect an electric shock when >> going from th e "potty" to the sink faucet. >> >> With the new fluorescents, zip after months. >> >> Regards, Frederick >> >> >Is this related to soft electron or soft particle theories? >> >Where is the experimental evidence for light leptons? >> > >> > >> >Thanks, John Berry >> > >> >> >>In all honesty, wishful thinking aside, it just >> >> >>might be a LL (Caloron) Gas (Plasma-Pairs)in part. >> >> > >> >> >Considering the near-certainty that El Nino is caused by a tenuous >> plasma >> >> >of light leptons floating out over the Pacific ocean, I'm sure you are >> >> >right about LL's causing the pressure increase in my chamber.... >> >> >> >> Don't be so sure that the LLs are not involved in atmospheric electrical >> >> effects, say like an afternoon thunderstorm etc. :-) >> > >> > >> > >> >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 17:40:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27147; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:34:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:37:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"q7AAM.0.5e6.XCNkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:06 PM 1/11/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> > >Your snipped suggestions sound good to me, Horace. > >> >> Am curious as to why you are using ground and not a return cable? >> > >I'm not sure I understand which point you're asking about, Horace. >For myself, I would define the test path with a length of coax line Sorry, I was referring to Jim's diagram, which shows the wire grounded at either end. I was really asking Jim I guess. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 18:27:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06663; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:22:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:22:24 -0800 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:24:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ys-ew3.0.0e1.VvNkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Frank , Horace and others interested in the long wire experiment; I have a few prefacing remarks about the underlying concepts of this experiment which I think should be aired before deciding on the exact setup config we want to use . I am open to suggestions about the best way to make our long signal path the ONLY AVAILABLE PATH for transmitted information . To me this suggests a straight line rather than a loop between monitored nodes . For any suggested setup , we should try to think of ways the signal could shortcut somehow between the two inputs to the scope ,and if there is a possible path , test for it before proceding. This involves CONTROL EXPERIMENT(S). Frank , If you want to get re-acquainted with phase shift observations on your x/y input scope you could do a version of the following with capacitor values you have on hand and I will try to verify your results with my scope(s) . If you need more info about how to convert ellipse dimensional ratios to phase readings let me know . Control Experiment - expected reactance phase shift measurements: 1. Known value capacitance delays _________________________________ Channel A (trigger) | > -scope SS1(~)-*--\/\/\/ ______________ Channel B | TP1 ^ | | |_____________* TP2 | | | ----- | ----- Cap value: _463 pf_ __|__ __|__ SS1 freq : _1 mhz_ / / / / / / Ohms Delay between adjacent peaks 7.7 (not measurable) 60 .027 usec 128 .061 usec 260 .106 usec 520 .171 usec 1040 .196 usec --------------------------------------------------------------------- _ MY PROBLEM_ Basics of Mechanical Analogy Problem The idea of a mechanical analogy (mass-spring system) as suggested by Frank is helpful in visualizing what is supposed to happen and what we are trying to observe in the electrical harmonic oscillator case. How would someone send a message between opposite ends of a driven damped mass - spring system ? What came to mind for me was making a variable damping force . For the stiff automobile suspension coil system , this would be the equivalent of putting a closable hole in one end of the shock absorber which would result in the desired relaxation of damping effect when open (it would let the air inside the shock escape a little) . My problem with this analogy has always been , "how could a relaxation of the damping force in a mass spring system not effect the oscillation at both ends simultaneously?" This is the same problem I have with the electrical model for a damped oscillator . If there was a delay due to light speed limitations , you would have the vibration relaxing at one end somehow but not at the other end for a time = t=r/c , where r/c = the circuit dimensions relative to the velocity of light . No matter how small or how big this number is , you end up with with a +/- net amount of energy expressible in terms of VARS (volt - amps reactive) that I have never found a way to account for. But my math skills are limited , so experiment was the only way I could hope to see how this worked ,exactly. For those of you possesing better math skills than me (Frank , I'm sure that's you ,if not most of the remainder of the vortex list as well) as well, here are the analogous variables and constants: Mechanical System Electrical System ----------------------------------|------------------------------------- Displacement x Charge q Driving force f Driving Voltage V Mass M Inductance L Damping force constant b Resistance R Spring constant k Reciprocal of Capacitance 1/C Resonant frequency SQRT (k/m) Resonant Frequency 1/SQRT(LC) Resonance width y = b/m Resonance width y = R/L Potential Energy 1/2 kx^2 Energy of Static Charge (1/2 q^2)/ C Kinetic Energy: Electromagnetic energy of moving Chg: 1/2m(dx/dt)^2 = 1/2 mv^2 1/2L(dq/dt)2 = 1/2 Li^2 Power absorbed at Resonance : Power absorbed at Resonance : Fo ^2 / 2b Vo^2 / 2R ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 18:54:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15514; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:45:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:45:31 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801110651.WAA17621 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:44:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: gravity modifiers Resent-Message-ID: <"P8LzS1.0.Ko3.AFOkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan - > Rick, is that the direction you're headed > with talk of 'unshieldable EM effects' ? Yes. If it's shieldable by conventional means, then of course it isn't gravity. If it *isn't* shieldable, then maybe it's still hard-to-shield EM, something else interesting, or maybe gravity. But that's the first rough cut. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 20:18:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA30485; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:14:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:14:00 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:17:20 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Light lepton detector Resent-Message-ID: <"HcO0v3.0.9S7.6YPkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well, Fred, here is an idea for a light lepton detector! One variation of the idea hinges on light leptons being able to conduct like ordinary electrons. If they can, then the rest should work. There is no reason to think light leptons can not conduct, because the wavelength of an electron is much bigger than an atom, but electrons manage to move along through some much smaller spaced lattices very well, especially semiconductor lattices. The idea is to use a tunnel diode as a detector. Light leptons at a given thermal energy will have a much larger wavelength lambda = h/(mv) due to the smaller mass. Therefore, light leptons should be able to tunnel across a much larger tunnel diode junction, and should have a larger tunneling rate at a fixed voltage and barrier size than electrons. One problem with this idea is that electrons move glacially slow in conductors. It may take a very long time to draw the ll's into the tunneling diode, making the measurement time less than utilitarian. Since ll's have a much bigger size than electrons, it should be possible to custom make a probe with a very thin nonconductive coating just a bit too thick for ordinary electrons to tunnel. This might be achieved by coating a metal or semiconductor probe with its own oxide coating. The coating should have a high dielectric strength, plus not break down at a high voltage. Maybe SiO2 on a doped N-type semiconductor would work. There would be an advantage to using a high voltage gradient at the probe surface, thus an ionizing capability. The probe could then strip light leptons from their environments, making the detector more generally useful and sensitive. Detecting the ll's then amounts to detecting a DC current component present. Moving the probe around would generate an AC signal due to changing capacitance between the probe and the surrounds. However, a steady DC component to the probe current would indicate tunneling, and thus light leptons. The probe would best be used in a light lepton producing environment The ionizing energy for a light lepton hydrino should be small, so it would be possible to make a probe by simply making a gap: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ---------> XPPPPPPPPPPPPP-------- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X - oxide coating --> - conducting electrode at high voltage PPP - LL probe body Such a probe could obviously be used in a vacuum environment. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 20:32:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27796; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:25:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:25:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:22:38 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Light lepton detector Resent-Message-ID: <"4mQNo.0.Do6.eiPkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, Fred, here is an idea for a light lepton detector! One variation of the idea hinges on light leptons being able to conduct like ordinary electrons. If they can, then the rest should work. There is no reason to think light leptons can not conduct, because the wavelength of an electron is much bigger than an atom, but electrons manage to move along through some much smaller spaced lattices very well, especially semiconductor lattices. The idea is to use a tunnel diode as a detector. Light leptons at a given thermal energy will have a much larger wavelength lambda = h/(mv) due to the smaller mass. Therefore, light leptons should be able to tunnel across a much larger tunnel diode junction, and should have a larger tunneling rate at a fixed voltage and barrier size than electrons. One problem with this idea is that electrons move glacially slow in conductors. It may take a very long time to draw the ll's into the tunneling diode, making the measurement time less than utilitarian. Since ll's have a much bigger size than electrons, it should be possible to custom make a probe with a very thin nonconductive coating just a bit too thick for ordinary electrons to tunnel. This might be achieved by coating a metal or semiconductor probe with its own oxide coating. The coating should have a high dielectric strength, plus not break down at a high voltage. Maybe SiO2 on a doped N-type semiconductor would work. There would be an advantage to using a high voltage gradient at the probe surface, thus an ionizing capability. The probe could then strip light leptons from their environments, making the detector more generally useful and sensitive. Detecting the ll's then amounts to detecting a DC current component present. Moving the probe around would generate an AC signal due to changing capacitance between the probe and the surrounds. However, a steady DC component to the probe current would indicate tunneling, and thus light leptons. The probe would best be used in a light lepton producing environment The ionizing energy for a light lepton hydrino should be small, so it would be possible to make a probe by simply making a gap: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ---------> XPPPPPPPPPPPPP-------- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X - oxide coating --> - conducting electrode at high voltage and/or hot filament PPP - LL probe body Such a probe could obviously be used in a vacuum environment. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 21:56:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17299; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:52:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:52:48 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; Light Lepton Detector Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:10:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1f18$75bdefa0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"PX15Z1.0.-D4.h-Qkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for the input, Horace, But why make a simple experiment so complicated? :-) A suitable vacuum chamber 10E-6 Torr or so, a hot tungsten filament (and since the Lamb Shift experiments and Julian Schwinger's theories indicate that hydrogen transitions of a few ev might create the resonant condition)a bit of hydrogen gas might be required in the system. An extractor-accelerator electrode at about 5 kilovolts +/- and a Phosphor-coated plate should get the LLs up to near c. A simple set of magnet coils 4 inches in diameter capable of producing about 3 gauss (72 ampere-turns) will cause the LLs to sweep a radius of about 2 inches where they can hit the phosphor. The Regular electrons will sweep a radius of about 32 inches. A variac and d.c supply for the mag field, the 5 kv power supply need only be capable of a few microamps. A darkened room and maybe a rifle scope for viewing the phosphor. Not much to it, is there? I think by the time the BLP "dust" settles, these will be the particles that form the Hydrinos. Regards, Frederick a hydrogen transition From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 21:57:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17029; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:52:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP action! Filament Erosion- Water Cycle Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:29:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1f12$b71c4ec0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_rv6I2.0.y94.G-Qkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott noted in Run 3 that the tungsten filament seemed to be losing cross-section. This is to be expected in the presence of O2, and particularly if there is H2 present. The O2 reacts to form WO3 which is quite volatile at 1700-2000 K filament temperatures. Also 3 H2O + W = 3 H2 + Wo3. The WO3 condenses on the cooler parts of the system, where it reacts with the H2; 3 H2 + WO3 ---> H2O + W thus leaving the reduced tungsten on the cooler parts. In higher vacuum light bulbs this is known as "the water cycle" that leaves the tungsten on the bulb. Nowadays with pressurization of bulbs to 2/3 Atm Argon-Nitrogen and better degassing, this is less common. This cycle should occur in the BLP experiments with the KNO3 present. This speaks well for using heavier tungsten filaments. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 11 22:20:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21445; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:16:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:16:29 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980112061742.009d1ea4 mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:17:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: Re: Used electromagnet for the hauling (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"x4OAg3.0.tE5.wKRkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Could look something like this: http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/images/electmag.jpg Gary Hawkins At 02:18 PM 1/11/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Forwarded from physics teaching discussion. The 12" probably refers to >the pole size. Therefor the entire device is probably many hundreds of >pounds. > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:34:48 -0600 (CST) >From: "David A. Cornell" >Reply-To: phys-l atlantis.uwf.edu >To: phys-l atlantis.uwf.edu >Subject: Used electromagnet for the hauling > >Harvey-Wells Magnion 12-inch electromagnet, 3-inch gap, Model HSR-1365B >Power Supply, modified (1985) for series current regulation. Need to move >to make place for another magnet and spectrometer for 60 MHz pulsed proton >NMR work. Used, as is, yours for the hauling. > >Contact David Cornell, Physics Department Principia College, Elsah, IL 62028, >E-mail: dcorn prin.edu (not the listserv!), or phone 618-374-5293. >****************************************************************************** >David A. Cornell Chair, Physics Department >Professor of physics Society of Physics Students >Principia College Chapter Advisor >Elsah, IL 62028 USA Zone Eight Councilor >Tel: 618-374-5293 (office) FAX: 618-374-5122 > 618-374-1006 (home) e-mail: dcorn prin.edu >****************************************************************************** > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 00:21:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23663; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:11:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:11:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:14:06 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Re; Light Lepton Detector Resent-Message-ID: <"yCec33.0.fn5._0Tkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:10 PM 1/11/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] > >A suitable vacuum chamber 10E-6 Torr or so, a hot tungsten filament (and >since the Lamb Shift >experiments and Julian Schwinger's theories indicate that hydrogen >transitions of a few ev >might create the resonant condition)a bit of hydrogen gas might be required >in the system. > >An extractor-accelerator electrode at about 5 kilovolts +/- and a >Phosphor-coated plate >should get the LLs up to near c. > >A simple set of magnet coils 4 inches in >diameter capable of producing about 3 gauss >(72 ampere-turns) will cause the LLs to sweep >a radius of about 2 inches where they can hit the phosphor. The Regular >electrons will >sweep a radius of about 32 inches. > >A variac and d.c supply for the mag field, the 5 kv power supply need only >be capable of a few microamps. A darkened room and maybe a rifle scope for >viewing the phosphor. > >Not much to it, is there? > Well, then, Fred, why haven't you done it? I hear the Nobel Prize includes over a million bucks these days. 8^) Personally, I prefer the probe idea. That way every time you think there might be light leptons somewhere it's just a matter of putting the probe there to find out! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 01:26:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10334; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:59:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:59:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:02:46 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Heavy Water Import Resent-Message-ID: <"qf4rM2.0.HX2._jTkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does anyone know of any regulations, restrictions, or difficulties involved in importing heavy water (D2O) to the USA, or purchasing it or possesing it in the USA? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 03:08:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA04806; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:04:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:04:28 -0800 (PST) From: Geosas Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:03:16 EST To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, Puthoff@aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: Geosas aol.com Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Spam on AOL Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"uKdjq3.0._A1.vYVkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi there fellow-AOL members - I see from Vortex that you are having problems with spam on AOL. According to one Web site I have seen, it is one of the worst providers for this. I am in the U.K. and have been receiving up to 20 spam messages per day. It is now possible for me to exclude specified domains - I have done this with hotmail.com and juno.com and some others. This has helped a bit. Now, I have been receiving a lot (mostly porn adverts) from addresses such as nnnnnnnn aol.com where nnnnnnnn is an 8-digit number. In the "Headers" section you can see that it originates from hotmail.com, usually an address of the form xxxx_60.hotmail.com where xxxx is a short word. Most of these are not addressed to me personally - the "To:" line has something like "To: friend aol.com". I am forwarding all this stuff to COSMAIL1,COSMAIL2,COSUK (all aol.com) and sometimes get automatic messages back telling me not to do so. If I keep on doing it I might get a human response. If and when this happens, I will tell them that I would like the following: Messages without "geosas" in the "To:" line; Messages with "hotmail.com" or any other ASCII strings that I may specify in the "Headings" section; Other conditions which I will think of in due course; These to be dumped to the great bit bucket in the sky. That would cut out 90% of it. I forward spam from other sources to postmaster and sometimes get a polite message of thanks back, more often not, or else it bounces. Also, it should be possible to give phoney email addresses in postings to newsgroups, as some others seem able to do. I can then put my true email address in a form which the 'harvesters' will not recognise as an email address. I have an alternate one which I can give as: golf mike three juliet zulu kilo at amsat period org and if the harvesters can recognise that as an email address I shall be impressed. It is my ham radio callsign. I would be grateful if you could help by putting pressure on AOL to implement these measures. In particular, sending stuff to COSUK seems to provoke some response. It is an ongoing cybernetic battle; now I am getting spam telling me how to make money out of trying to stop spam! ("Just send $19.95 ...") All the best, George. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 03:58:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA07993; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:47:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:47:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:46:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199801121146.DAA23842 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: gravity modifiers Resent-Message-ID: <"qhpMG2.0.gy1.dBWkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Dan - > > > Rick, is that the direction you're headed > > with talk of 'unshieldable EM effects' ? > >Yes. If it's shieldable by conventional means, then of course it isn't >gravity. If it *isn't* shieldable, then maybe it's still hard-to-shield EM, >something else interesting, or maybe gravity. But that's the first rough >cut. EM is the interconnection of the wave emissions of acoustic solitonic resonances which interact from the "particle" to "spacetime" and back into the "particle again. Nuclear forces are the interaction of soliton aka "particle" to soliton again without spacetime in between. Gravity is due to the direct interaction of filtering wave energy at the Planck scale, E-35 meters, directly with the photon, but wave energy that is arriving from other solitons across the universe and doppler shifted relative to local spacetime oscillation frequency. There is no shielding wave energy at that wavelength, the entire earth and indeed, even a neutron star would be virtually as clear as a crystal ball there is so little density to the aether at the nuclear scale. At the innermost convergence of solitonic resonances, the energy density is on the order of E111 eV/m^3. The nuclear and EM energy densities are far lower and the wavelengths far longer. Shielding isn't going to get it precisely because your sheilds are made up of normal atoms, and not the guts of black holes cores. A BH core could shield you from wave energy arriving on the opposite side of the core, coming from the universe. But the wave energy coming in from behind you smashing you into the BH core would hurt a lot! Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 05:33:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08178; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:28:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:28:26 -0800 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:22:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Light lepton detector In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"RmG0J1.0.i_1.vfXkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HH, How are you going to "Draw the LL inot the detector?" J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 05:41:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20500; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:35:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:35:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:25:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: news (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2aUIZ.0.B05.vmXkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >THE YEAR'S BEST TRUE HEADLINES > >Include Your Children when Baking Cookies > >Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says > >Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers > >Drunk Gets Nine Months in Violin Case > >Iraqi Head Seeks Arms > >Prostitutes Appeal to Pope > >Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over > >British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands > >Teacher Strikes Idle Kids > >Clinton Wins on Budget, But More Lies Ahead > >Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told > >Miners Refuse to Work after Death > >Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant > >Stolen Painting Found by Tree > >Two Sisters Reunited After 18 Years in Checkout Counter > >Never Withhold Herpes Infection from Loved One > >War Dims Hope for Peace > >If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While > >Cold Wave Linked to Temperatures > >Enfields Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide > >Red Tape Holds Up New Bridges > >Typhoon Rips Through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead > >Man Struck By Lightning Faces Battery Charge > >New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group > >Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft > >Kids Make Nutritious Snacks > >Chef Throws His Heart into Helping Feed Needy > >Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half > >New Vaccine May Contain Rabies From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 06:24:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16158; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:20:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:20:12 -0800 Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BA25F3.CE683DBB ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:17:23 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity modifiers References: <199801110651.WAA17621 pop1.ucdavis.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3AljF1.0.My3.QQYkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dan Quickert wrote: > *if* gravity is a push and not a pull, and *if* the Tampere-type devices are > causing "less gravity", then would that not mean that the Tampere device is > creating (or reflecting) a "push"? > ...in September you mentioned that you wanted to turn the setup on its > side and see if it made thrust - have you done that? So many theories at stake here.... hee hee. I think this is an excellent idea. Directionally specific action with regard to gravity modification would be a major step forward in the understanding of what exactly we are dealing with IMO. I would be very interested to hear of the results of such an experiment. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 06:33:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19335; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:31:50 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BA2947.64A818AE ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:31:35 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electronic Camoflage References: <34B7F365.B5 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JKcly3.0.1k4.KbYkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jerry wrote: > "a TV program where they talked about a concept that would probably be > used in future military camouflage...a fiber-optic screen around > an object, a camera to photograph the background, and then displaying > the background on the screen so that the object would blend in with > the background... Ever see a flounder do this over a black and white checker board? Amazing natural ability. Almost unbelievable. Good thing nature had a chance to get diverse before we got here. Where else would we get some of our best ideas? ha ha ha -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 06:52:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22092; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:48:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:48:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:51:28 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Light lepton detector Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"YUfNY3.0.6P5.hqYkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:22 AM 1/12/98, John Schnurer wrote: > HH, > > How are you going to "Draw the LL into the detector?" > > > J If you make your own probe by making a very thin oxide tunneling barrier, then the ll's are drawn in by maintaining a DC field below threshold of distruction of the insulating tunneling barrier layer. You can chose which kind of light lepton you are looking for, positive or negative, by chosing the opposite polarity of the sensor electrode behind the tunneling layer. This seems by far the best method, but you have to make just the right kind of layer. An ionizing point electrode or a hot filament opposite the sensing probe may help draw the ll's lose from anything to which they may have attached. If you use a tunnel diode then the device is not as general, and may not work, but easier to construct. You need to suppy a HV bias to draw the ll's into the diode from a sampling point *very* near the diode. The ll's could possibly move at electron speed in a metal, which is *very* slow, and, even if they exist, it is not known if they can move through metal. Assuming they get into the sampling metal probe, use a small DC current to draw some of the ll's into the tunnel diode by using the voltage gradient from the diode's current loop. Here is an example using a tunnel diode: HV - D1 V2 ---> X---|<|-----------R1------- | | | | | | ----|\ Op. Amp. | | V1| ----|/|----o A |V4 | | | | | |--R2----------R3------| | | V3 | | | | | |--B1----------R4------- | | - + HV | | | | | ----------| | G A - ll sensor probe output B1 - battery HV - high voltage supply used to draw/push negative leptons into sampler wire at X Op. Amp. - differential op amp used to sense change in V2-V3 D1 - tunnel diode operating in tunneling, but positive slope, region (lowest current region) R1 - devides voltage V1 - V4 with D1 R2,R3 - trim pot to set zero point, V2=V3. R4 - bias resistor, value chosen so V1-V2 puts D1 in right voltage range -> - point electrode or hot filament (heater circuit not shown) If light leptons are drawn into circuit at X, then eventually some should reach D1, and D1 should conduct them much better, thus resistance drops and V2 goes higher with respect to V3. Hope I got all that right. 8^) This is a basic concept design. One of the problems with this may be thermal drift. Since it takes so long for the ll's to show up (days), there are zeroing and temperature control problems. There's lots of room for improvement, but I think the effort is better placed on building a purely tunneling based probe. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 07:01:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00671; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:57:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:57:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "John Schnurer" Subject: Re: 30 year Fluorescent Bulbs Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:52:06 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1f69$a6e514e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-8XIw1.0.OA._yYkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John S. Asks: >Where do you live? South of Albuquerque, New Mexico, John. Was out in the country,but now just 5 blocks from a Wal-Mart "Superstore". :-) Elevation, 4,850 ft. and dry except when it rains or the evaporative cooler is running in the summer months. I think you Might find bound and unbound Light Leptons in the fluorescent bulbs. The "drop" of Hg and Argon and 950 C filaments should produce them inside the bulb. You will note that as the bulbs age there is a short zone that doesn't illuminate, possibly due to LL gas buildup? On the other hand the binding energy of a 1.5 ev (or so)LL pair shouldn't be over a fraction of an ev, but being neutral they shouldn't be very reactive. I think I have six or eight still working ok. Since the phosphor absorbs the shorter wavelength uv 254 nm (and other)mercury photons and converts a lot of it into the 700+ nm there should be lots of LLs created in the bulbs. But, you ain't gonna get me to look for them. That's Horace's job for checking out his solid-state LL detector. :-) Regards, Frederick Regards, From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 07:08:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26391; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:06:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:06:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Light Lepton Detector Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:03:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1f6b$3f7f21e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2eIys3.0.FS6.u5Zkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John S. Asks: >How are you going to extract them? If they are unbound bound they will carry the same charge +/- as the positron or electron. Thus with the proper electron optics they can be handled with something similar to the electron "gun" in a cathode ray tube. I think if you take a close look at the Edison Effect you will find that he not only saw negative electrons coming off the light bulb filament, but positive charges thought to be positive ions coming off as well, when the "collector" plate was made negative with respect to the filament. These may be LL+ charges that only a mass spectrometer could determine which. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 07:14:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27258; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:10:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:10:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:11:13 -0500 (EST) From: Todd Heywood To: " minnie.nic.kingston.ibm.com":@minnie.nic.kingston.ibm.com:vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: bob lazar Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tDL7P.0.lf6.t9Zkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Transmutation, anti-gravity, "alien technology", etc. http://www.boblazar.com Even if you don't believe it, the depth and detail is really something, and fun. todd From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 07:20:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29273; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:18:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:18:37 -0800 Message-Id: <34BA2C92.A06A1AAE verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:45:38 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity modifiers References: <199801120016.QAA11606 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bGWBZ3.0.J97.BHZkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: [snip] > > Greetings Hamdi; > > No, you don't need a radical new model for gravity, you just need the > correct one. The columnar effect may be proof that the phenomena is indeed, > an aether pump rather than aether wave reflections. The reflections should > affect gravitation at all angles, but an aether pump should work exactly the > same way as it does at the surface of the sun when aether breaches out of > large emissions, observed with SOHO instruments. > > That phenomena leads to the formation of an aether vortex, sort of like a > fountain, or a smoke ring. The column is centered on the fountain column. > > They should also find that there is a magnetic field associated with that > fountain with the pole directed along the column axis. Ross, Aether pumping in a beam ... , could you tell me why its direction is vertical? Or what the physical requirement which make this beam vertical? Regards, hamdi ucar > > They built the first aether propulsion system, a form of jet turbine that > will be common place in the distant future, just as Otto cycle motors are > today (though now called automobiles!) > > the problem is, they don't understand what it was that they did to acheive > the phenomena or how to work with aether vortices to amplify the effect. It > is all very comical to me. But then I am just a lunatic in the mountains > and matter consists of particles and force fields, and behaves according to > magical and mysterious quantum mechanical "Laws". We know this to be the > case, because we have acheived tremendous accuracy in our measurements, just > as had Ptolemy centuries ago when he could magically predict eclipses and > the onset of retrograde motions of the planets!!!!!! Neither of those > theories were based on understanding, but rather assertions that were > absurd. Yet their prowess in predictive efficacy fooled everyone into > believing that nature was unpredictable and magical. > > Matter does not alter its behavior due to our gaze, the instruments we use > to gaze with do when the blast electrons with high energy photons to see > which slit they went through. And gravity is not a pull, as there are no > strings attached to my matter. It is a wave filtering phenomena and I am a > bundle of waves! > > Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 08:05:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10510; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:01:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:01:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:02:39 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re[2]: Format for ascii drawings? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"24rJ2.0.6a2.ovZkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:15:59 -0800 From: KIRK OSTROWSKI To: Jim Ostrowski Subject: Re[2]: Format for ascii drawings? (fwd) Hey dad, It's fun to witness old timers whining about windows and how great their fossilized applications are. Anyhow, I'm in Korea and I can't believe how many beautiful women are here. [snip] -kirk o Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Vorts, > > My ascii drawings look ok from here when I see them in my newsreader , > but > when I put them in Write in Windows they're all obliterated on the > right > hand side. > > My old xtree file viewer displays them correctly. > > Windows sucks. > > Jim O. Windows 95: n. 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition (And my apologies to Bill Gates /;^}> ) -- Have a Good Day, Patrick V. Reavis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 08:57:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15108; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:52:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:52:27 -0800 Message-ID: <34BA4A53.A643586E ro.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:52:35 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.1.32.19980111151639.0078052c@world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IaLT83.0.wh3.8fakq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >I would like to hear privately from other Vortexers as to whether or > not > >the image at the above address looks "right" or not. For example, it > > >should have dotted gridlines running both horizontally and vertically > in > >the graph area. I myself am having a little trouble with Netscape > >mis-interpreting the .gif file and leaving out some of the details. > >Curiously when choose "View Image (run3.gif)" from the right mouse > button > >menu (condolences to the Mac-ites) the image comes in fine....it's > just > >when it's integrated into the page that it looks "ragged". > > > > > > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little > >1406 Old Wagon Road > >Austin TX 78746 > >512-328-4071 > > > > Scott and Stephanie, check to see if the graphic is located in the same directory as the rest of the page. (on your ISP server of course). If the image looks goofy, try setting the image size to "Original Size". Keep up the exciting work! -- Have a Good Day, Patrick V. Reavis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 09:17:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20092; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:11:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:11:00 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <8561e4df.34ba4d2b aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:04:42 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, fstenger interlaced.net, RVargo1062@aol.com, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bssimon@helix.ucsd.edu, halfox slkc.uswest.net Subject: added sound to Yusmar amimation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"E4ikX2.0.ov4.Vwakq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I added the sound of a kettle drum to my Yusmar animation. You love it. yusmar.html at members.aol.com Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 09:34:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26068; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:29:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:29:27 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:22:20 EST To: chronos mail.enter.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: hheffner corecom.net Subject: Re: Squeezed Light Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"RpabA.0.8N6.rBbkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/10/98 9:41:29 AM, chronos mail.enter.net wrote: <> Certainly worth some thought. Off the top of my head, it would simply mean that forces due to each polarization would need to be calculated independently, though I suspect that , e.g., in the Casimir effect the final result would be the same. It would be wonderful if by a combination of squeezed ZPF and polarization-sensitive boundary conditions one could obtain an asymmetrical force. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 09:38:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24114; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:33:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:33:43 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BA5381.DF28579A ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:31:45 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yusmar References: <8561e4df.34ba4d2b aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"25f-42.0.fu5.qFbkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC wrote: > I added the sound of a kettle drum to my Yusmar animation. You love it. > Hmmm. I could be misunderstanding your setup, but wouldn't the illustrated thermodynamic pinch cool the stream, not super heat it? Just my first impression. Is this the existing setup? or the next try? -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 09:46:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25117; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:39:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:39:23 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980110182815.00827100 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:38:10 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Resent-Message-ID: <"IZmjU.0.L86.6Lbkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >Significant chamber pressure anomalies were observed in this run without >KNO3! Please help us decide what to do next. Sorry I'm responding late to your Run 3. I still suspect conventional outgassing. Every time you raise temperature, there is outgassing of surfaces in a vacuum chamber, even from metal and ceramic. I, too, recommend baking for many hours at a temperature at least a little greater than planned operation of your experiment while you pump as much as you can. (BTW, I didn't notice what kind of vacuum pump you have.) The W filament is also an outgas source. That 5 torr or so pressure rise when you turn the filament on for the first time is almost surely outgas from the filament. So, while you are baking the chamber to about 300 C, you also need to run your filament, eventually all the way up to your planned operating temperature while still heating the rest of the chamber and pumping. Otherwise, all the filament's crud ends up condensed on your other surfaces and can cause you problems later. As I am sure you know, H2 is a surprisingly stable molecule, and the filament doesn't produce much dissociation and atomic H until it is about as hot as you can get it. WRT flowing vs. isolated H2 in the chamber, who knows. Conceptually, from what I understand of Mills' ideas, it shouldn't make much difference. Blacklight seems to avoid details in their postings... Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 10:11:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01818; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:03:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:03:21 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:03:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"TYkRT.0.9S.dhbkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since I've been involved in this discussion, I will offer some of my recommendations for an experiment, based on Jim's layout (nice ascii drawing, Jim): ________________ | _____ | | | ~~~ | | | |_~~~_| | | Ch1 *(V) Ch2 *(H) TR1 -----|--------|- TR4 _ __ _____________ ____ | | ____ ___________ ______ | )|( COAX LINE )|( )|( COAX LINE )|( | | _)|(_____________)|(____ ____)|(___________)|(_ | | __|__ TR2 __|__ __|__ TR3 __|__ | | --- --- --- --- | | . . . . | V V *-------------------------------------------------------------------* | <- 75 ft run magnet wire -> .-----------| \ 4066 o / / R1 Cmos -> / \ \ sw o R2 / | | \ (~) SS1 ` ----------| __|__ 1mhz __|__ --- --- . . Eliminate the transformers. Real transformers have dispersion (ie., their delay varies with frequency). Instead, use voltage dividers and terminated coax lines to 'scope: Terminate each coax at the scope with its characteristic impedance, 50 or 75 ohm, as appropriate. This makes the coax look like a pure resistance at the other end, no matter what its length. Now make a voltage divider. For example, a 7500 ohm resistor in series with the signal input end of a 75 ohm coax would give a 101:1 divider. The exact value of the division is not important. It should be large enough not to load your experimental circuit too much, but not so large that you cannot read the divided signals well at the 'scope. The long wire will radiate. Consider making the long wire run a two-wire transmission line instead, like in the old radio days, if it is consistnet with your experiment. Get the 'scope physically far from the line. Make the two coax lines longer than half the length of the long wire, so the scope is at the apex of an isoceles triangle far from the wire. 75 ohm coax is cheap, because it's used so much for TV cables. You can buy 30 m (100 foot) lengths at eg. Radio Shack; might need connector adaptors to go between F and BNC. Run the coax on the surface of the ground as much as possible, to minimize propagation along the outside of the coax. I worry about alternate paths via the 60 Hz power lines. Just because one sees no evidence of a 60 Hz ground loop does not prove that one has no RF ground loop. I recommend using local power at the generator and another local power source at the 'scope. Either a portable gasoline powered generator or storage battery and DC-AC invertor would do. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 11:03:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07659; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:51:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:51:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980112125105.00a68724 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:51:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980110182815.00827100 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tEu4L.0.Xt1.cOckq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:38 1/12/98 -0800, Michael S wrote: >I still suspect conventional outgassing. Every time you raise temperature, >there is outgassing of surfaces in a vacuum chamber, even from metal and >ceramic. I, too, recommend baking for many hours at a temperature at least >a little greater than planned operation of your experiment while you pump >as much as you can. (BTW, I didn't notice what kind of vacuum pump you >have.) I'm baking at full temp with both the filament and the heater going right now. Vacuum system is a Balzers 330 l/s turbo (the old twin-rotor style) backed by a big Welch 1397 with a molecular sieve in between. Conductance to the experiment chamber isn't great but I've made it as big as possible consistent with the necessary thermal isolation for the calorimetry. The main bottle-neck is a 8" long tube that is 0.4" ID. >The W filament is also an outgas source. That 5 torr or so pressure rise >when you turn the filament on for the first time is almost surely outgas >from the filament. Yeah, the filament definitely lost some W during Run 3. This morning it's cold resistance was 0.70 ohms compared to 0.45 ohms initially. But the major part of the outgassing is not W atoms because the extra 5 torr of pressure remains after the system cools back down to room temperature. It's got to be something that is a gas at room temp and yet is locked up in/on the apparatus when the experiment starts. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 12:41:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09252; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:35:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:35:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; BLP- Hot Fusion Cocktail? Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:48:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1f93$07e147e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cPNHd3.0.xF2.7wdkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott's cell set-up would make for an interesting experiment using the Deutero-Boranes, DxBy and Potassium Borohydride KBH4 along with D2 gas. If, the LLs are being formed they should be taken up by the deuterium, causing release of the neutron from the Deuterium which is probably what's occurring in the "1.0 ev stripping" plasmas. The released neutron can react with the B-10 (about 20% in Boron) n + 5 B-10 ---> He4 + Li-7 plus 2.78 Mev. This can be used in space propulsion engines as a nuclear propellant with a fairly decent Specific Impulse. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 13:15:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26968; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:52:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:52:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Modified Fluorescent Bulb Hydrino Experiment Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:47:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1f9b$44698580$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"yYktW3.0.Ib6.i9ekq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Seems that Injecting a small amount of Hydrogen and possibly a bit of KOH or such into a standard fluorescent light fixture (6 to 10 microns cold pressure)might give some interesting energy effects. With the ballast already "sized" a few extra microns of hydrogen-potassium pressure shouldn't throw things off much. One could always go to quartz tubes with a metal jacket or Nichrome coating on the outside and leave out the phosphor. Call it a heat lamp? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 13:58:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29667; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:45:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:48:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Light lepton detector Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"X8iyA1.0.TF7.cxekq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The more I think about the tunnel diode light lepton (ll) detector (call it a type 1 detector) the worse it seems. The tunnel diode is designed to tunnel electrons. The ll signal could just be noise over the electron flow over the tunneling barrier. This fact, combined with the very long conduction times in copper, pretty much indicate that if such a probe worked it would be very fortunate and also that the light leptons would have to be very abundant. Looking now at the other alternative (a type 2 detector), if any current crosses a much wider custom built tunneling barrier, one over 137 angstroms (up to maybe 400 angstroms) thick, then that current, except for a minimal constant leakage, would be 100 percent signal. Further, the lower eV (lighter) ll's could tunnel a barrier 137 times that of the first order ll's. There is no conductor on the sensing side of the barrier to cause delay. Such a (type 2) sensor should give an immediate and reliable yes/no reading. There still is the problem of filtering out purely capacitive linkage transients to changing surroundings near the probe. That might be handled by comparing the signal across the tunneling gap to the signal across a nearby capacitor with a similar capacitance and leakage, but smaller area and larger gap width. A lot of amplification can be used because so much of the current is signal. However, if it is carried to the extreme of getting down to single event detection, then thermal noise and cosmic ray background start to play a role. If ll's exist and can fill up the volume of a light bulb or the BLP test cell, then getting down to single events is not anywhere near necessary. The type 2 detector is really the only way to go to obtain a negative result. A type 1 detector might give a positive reading though, and, if all measurment errors could be ruled out, that would be a nearly miraculous thing - to achieve the detection of light leptons. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 14:08:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07474; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:58:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:58:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:51:06 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: news (fwd) Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801121652_MC2-2F08-CABB compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"YJSE61.0.hq1.C8fkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex John Schnurer posted some blooper headlines like "Drunk Gets Nine Months in Violin Case." This one, and many others, appear in a hilarious little book from the Columbia University School of Journalism, titled: "Squad Helps Dog Bite Victim," (Doubleday, 1980). - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 15:12:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18999; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:00:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:00:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:02:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Quarupole deuteron neutron stripping device Resent-Message-ID: <"46etu.0.ce4.B2gkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The energy value of neutrons lies in the fact that thermal neutron induced reactions in suitable low nuclear waste targets release from 2 to 10 MeV. In addition, a neutron beam with suitable kinetic energy can multiply neutron counts by low waste producing reactions like: n + 7Li --> 6Li + 2 n n + 10Be --> 2 He4 + 3 n The isotope 10Be does not occur naturally, is unstable, and has a half life of 1.52x10^6 y. However, it can be made from 9Be which is a good stripping target. Though 10Be would constitute a nulcear waste, if discarded, but there is no need to discard it because it would constitute a primary part of the fuel, and its concentration in a stripping reactor target material would reach equilibrium, neither requiring enrichment nor being depleted, as the eventual adding of Be9 to the target material as it is depleted would correspond to the neutron flux produced, thus eventually maintaining the concentration equilibrium. In addition, a Be layer preceeding a Li layer would provide structural integrity to preserve the beam chamber vacuum. It was suggested by Robert Eachus that flipping the spin of the proton in a deuteron could induce fission in the D2 nucleus. The problem then, it seems, is finding the strongest possible method for flipping the spin of the proton relative to the neutron. Earlier I suggested using a quadrupole wiggler. The idea behind this is (1) the kinetic energy of the beam exceeds the binding energy of the deuteron and (2) the spin flipping can not be made to happen any faster than in such a device, due to the near light speed of the deuteron when moving through alternating magnetic poles of the wiggler, and (3) a constant electrostatic force relative to the beam aligns all the protons to one side and places acceleration induced stress on the proton-neutron bond simultaneous to the magnetic field induced proton flipping. There is no limit to the magnetic field strength that could be applied to such a beam, so the maximum flipping effect is really a matter of balancing the field strength of the wiggler magnets with the proximity of the field reversal points obtainable. It would also seem benficial to place the target in a place of maximum magnetic and electrostaic stress on the deuteron. Possibly a charged target oblique to the beam is indicated. Sending deutrons through a wiggler will generate photon emission, but that emission is in the direction of beam travel, so such photons will still hit the target. The kinetic energy of the deuteron, less binding energy possibly absorbed from the deuteron fission, is exhausted in the target, so all the energy put into the beam formation, less deuteron binding energy absorbed, eventually ends up in the target material. Therefore it is simply a matter of obtaining an average of more than the binding energy of the deuteron from each neutron released to obtain energy (theoretical breakeven) from the device. The energy released by reactions from the stripped neutrons must also be sufficient to overcome the energy lost converting the heat back into electrical energy and then into beam energy to obtain true breakeven. A stripping reactor can not endlessly multiply neutrons, is not a breader, so, one important factor is the fuel cost cost (say of D2O) per neutron. We can assume 100 percent conversion of D2 to P + n for purposes of fuel cost consideration, because the D2 not so converted can be recycled. The 1993-94 edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics gives the price for D2O as varying from $0.06/g to $1.00/g, depending on quantity and purity. Since purity is no issue, and volume would be large, we can use $0.10/g for a first estimate of cost in volume. Using 20 as the molecular weight for D2O we have a cost/mol of $2.00/mol. So, we have an energy output E=(10^7 eV/atom)(6.02x10^23 atoms/mol)(1.6x10^-19J/ev)=9.64x10^11 J/mol. At $2/mol the fuel cost of the energy is 4.82x10^11 J/$. At 3600 J/Wh, we have 1.34x10^8 Wh/$, or 134,000 KWh/$. Assuming a plant efficiency of 1 percent, we still produce power at 1340 KWh/$, or 0.0746 cents/KWh which compares favorably with present retail electricity costs of about 10 cents/KWh and fuel costs of approximately 2 cents/KWh. This is a marginal situation, but still interesting. The economics of a stripping type reactor hinges almost entirely on getting plant costs down, i.e. the plant cost/neutron, and on the amount of energy spent converting each D to p + n, which can be high if a particle accelerator type approach is used. Also, 2 MeV output per neutron might be a more realistic target than 10 MeV per neutron, which increases the D2O fuel cost to 0.00373 cents/KWh, and the cost of wholesale electricity from a 1 percent efficient plant to .373 cents/KWh, excluding unitized plant cost. If about 2 MeV is put into each neutron prior to the stripping, then the target neutron multiplication factor is a major player in the economics, and a target neutron multipliction factor of about 2 is required. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 15:59:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27060; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:46:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:46:54 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <2229fc91.34baa84a aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:33:29 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yusmar Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ExsFC2.0.ec6.Ujgkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That was the last try. The temp is adjusted to 160F and the water flashed to steam in the low pressure venturi. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 16:04:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29375; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:59:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:59:08 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <4350951c.34baad22 aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:54:09 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jayneg@grove.iup.edu Subject: electron Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"6b5M_2.0.uA7.7vgkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Two electrons were walking down the road. The one said to the other, "I've lost an electron!" The other replied, "Are you sure?" The first answered, "Yes I'm positive!" Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 16:42:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08505; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:37:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:37:54 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <75f7d1a5.34bab20f aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:15:10 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: the ether has capacitance properties only Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"AauWJ.0.p42.WThkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My next attempt shall be to show that, properly applied, Schroedinger's Wave >Equation would, in fact, using Heisenberg's Uncertainly Principle - >expressed as Energy x Time, leads to the value of 3.42 x 10^ -24 farads. >BTW, 3.42 x 10^-24 farads can be denoted as 3.42 pico pico farads or 3.42 >nano femto farads. Much easier to write it this way on the the internet. > >As ever, > >Howard > >Howard I. Cohen, Director >CAD - Special Interest Group >Boston Computer Society > >............................................................................. .... Good work Howard. I agreed with the idea but not with the value. You have now calculated the same value as I have. That value can be used to derive the compton wavelength of the electron. The first derivative of that value can be used to calculate the Bohr magneton. The whole story is on my book on a disk 2 MB. To much to talk about here. I glad to see that two people now have come to what I believe is the correct conclusion. Free space has an elestic limit. When the wavelength of a lepton wave has a capacitance that approaches the quantum limit reflections are produced. These reflections confine the zero point energy of matter. Reflections produce force..force produces gravity....a big step in our understanding. The Source of Inertial and Grav. Mass ........... Frank Znidarsic > ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 16:45:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09144; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:41:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:41:29 -0800 Message-ID: <34BAB802.C3D5E417 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:40:34 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Quarupole deuteron neutron stripping device References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pUX832.0.oE2.uWhkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think it is quite possible that the plant could be allot more than 1 percent efficient, What reason do you have for giving such a low efficiency? Still like the idea! John Berry Horace Heffner wrote: > Assuming a plant efficiency of 1 percent, we still produce power at 1340 > KWh/$, or 0.0746 cents/KWh which compares favorably with present retail > electricity costs of > about 10 cents/KWh and fuel costs of approximately 2 cents/KWh. > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 16:48:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05686; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:42:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:42:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:44:21 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Neutron stripping reactor helps DC transmission? Resent-Message-ID: <"LyWns3.0.fO1.MXhkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If a beam like stripping reactor, driven by 3 MV DC were effective, then it might be useful for not only the transmission of energy via HV DC powerline, but also for amplifying it. One problem with the idea is power lost to electron conduction due to electron emission from the hot target, and cascading effects. Possibly this could be partially eliminated by the strong magnetic fields of the wiggler by diverting the electrons to side plates, and converting their energy directly to electricity. Just some more half baked ideas. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:08:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07999; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:55:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:55:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BAD6C2.DC5 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:51:46 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Water as Fuel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uLEvz1.0.oy1.8khkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Folks! Finally got around to posting the 1935 Garrett patent with full details describing the demonstration of a 4 cylinder auto, operated solely from water taken from White Rock Lake in Dallas in 1934. There is much additional information in the file along with the 4 drawings showing its construction. Another file on a commercial unit that uses ultrasonics and water to provide oxygen also pertains. If you might be interested in such information, files are available at; http://www.keelynet/energy/ultraoxy.htm http://www.keelynet/energy/garrett.htm http://www.keelynet/energy/docx.htm or the master list; http://www.keelynet.htm/files.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:10:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14867; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:03:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:03:44 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:07:10 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Be9 - good news and bad news? Resent-Message-ID: <"Vqbx41.0.4e3.jrhkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Be9 has some chock full of goodies reactions, lots of neutron amplifying possibilities, but the elastic scattering cross section certainly is large. Maybe that is good for stripping? Total Cross Section at 0.0253 eV = 6.159 b Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 6.158 b at 14 MeV = 1.494 b Fission spectrum avg. = 2.834 b g-factor = 1.1282 Elastic Scattering Cross Section at 0.0253 eV = 6.151 b Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 6.151 b at 14 MeV = 959.3 mb Fission spectrum avg. = 2.673 b g-factor = 1.1284 Total Inelastic Cross Section at 14 MeV = 22.90 mb Fission spectrum avg. = 38.95 micro barn (n,2n) Cross Section at 14 MeV = 269.1 mb Fission spectrum avg. = 53.83 mb (n,2n) alpha-p Cross Section at 14 MeV = 17.49 mb Fission spectrum avg. = 4.938 mb Radiative Capture Cross Section at 0.0253 eV = 7.600 mb Maxwell avg. at 0.0253 eV = 6.735 mb Resonance integral = 3.419 mb at 14 MeV = 0.3231 micro barn Fission spectrum avg. = 1.156 micro barn g-factor = 1.0000 (n,alpha) Cross Section at 14 MeV = 9.419 mb Fission spectrum avg. = 35.65 mb Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:13:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09375; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:04:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:04:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:07:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Quarupole deuteron neutron stripping device Resent-Message-ID: <"LiDwh2.0.OI2.hshkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:40 PM 1/13/98, John Berry wrote: >I think it is quite possible that the plant could be allot more than 1 percent >efficient, What reason do you have for giving such a low efficiency? [snip] Conservatism. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:14:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15301; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:04:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:04:52 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:08:17 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Quarupole deuteron neutron stripping device Resent-Message-ID: <"lZEOl3.0.zk3.pshkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:40 PM 1/13/98, John Berry wrote: >I think it is quite possible that the plant could be allot more than 1 percent >efficient, What reason do you have for giving such a low efficiency? [snip] Others might say gross optimism! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:25:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12386; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:21:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:21:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BAC11D.745A keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:19:25 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Water as Fuel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uGVaP1.0.O13.L6ikq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks! Finally got around to posting the 1935 Garrett patent with full details describing the demonstration of a 4 cylinder auto, operated solely from water taken from White Rock Lake in Dallas in 1934. There is much additional information in the file along with the 4 drawings showing its construction. Another file on a commercial unit that uses ultrasonics and water to provide oxygen also pertains. If you might be interested in such information, files are available at; http://www.keelynet/energy/ultraoxy.htm http://www.keelynet/energy/garrett.htm http://www.keelynet/energy/docx.htm or the master list; http://www.keelynet.htm/files.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:27:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21586; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:24:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:24:53 -0800 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:24:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199801130124.RAA21231 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Be9 - good news and bad news? Resent-Message-ID: <"c4ira3.0.7H5.Y9ikq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Be9 has some chock full of goodies reactions, lots of neutron amplifying >possibilities, but the elastic scattering cross section certainly is large. >Maybe that is good for stripping? Also, few machine shops will want to machine anything with Be in it for you due to the extreme health hazard associated with it. And if they do, they will charge a premium. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 17:38:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13069; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:25:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:25:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:24:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199801130124.RAA21236 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: gravity modifiers Resent-Message-ID: <"fP6ry2.0.3C3.ZAikq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ever taken a ride on a jet turbine airplane? ;-) RT From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 18:23:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06237; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:17:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:17:18 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980112201646.0082c310 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:16:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP progress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mdX4l.0.EX1.iwikq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Today I baked the chamber at ~250C under high vacuum for 8 hours with the filament at 15 watts and the cartridge heater at 15 watts. I then filled it with 2 torr of H gas and sealed it off leaving the heater powers steady. Pressure rose to 3 torr over a 10 minute period (due to the gas warming up fully?) and then stayed constant for over an hour. At that time, I turned off the cartridge heater and increased the filament power to 30 watts. The pressure stayed constant at 3 torr for the next hour (then I had to shut down for the evening). This looks much better. Tomorrow I'll take everything apart, put the KNO3 vial back in, put in a new filament, and bake the system out similarly before filling with H gas. (I'll try to take a close-up picture of this filament with my new Snappy video-computer interface and post it on our web page.) Stay tuned. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 19:13:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26977; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:08:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:08:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BADA2A.9822AC89 ihug.co.nz> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:06:18 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water as Fuel References: <34BAD6C2.DC5 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IrXym3.0.Nb6.Rgjkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: May I suggest that you copy and paste url's so you have no errors. Jerry wrote: > Hi Folks! > > http://www.keelynet/energy/ultraoxy.htm > http://www.keelynet/energy/garrett.htm > http://www.keelynet/energy/docx.htm > > or the master list; http://www.keelynet.htm/files.htm > -- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 20:24:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA31795; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:12:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:12:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980112235232.00a1efe8 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:52:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"E99Un3.0.dm7.Wckkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:03 AM 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >Since I've been involved in this discussion, I will offer some of my >recommendations for an experiment, based on Jim's layout (nice ascii >drawing, Jim): > > ________________ > | _____ | > | | ~~~ | | > | |_~~~_| | > | Ch1 *(V) Ch2 *(H) > TR1 -----|--------|- TR4 > _ __ _____________ ____ | | ____ ___________ ______ > | )|( COAX LINE )|( )|( COAX LINE )|( | > | _)|(_____________)|(____ ____)|(___________)|(_ | > | __|__ TR2 __|__ __|__ TR3 __|__ | > | --- --- --- --- | > | . . . . | > V V > *-------------------------------------------------------------------* > | <- 75 ft run magnet wire -> .-----------| > \ 4066 o / > / R1 Cmos -> / \ > \ sw o R2 / > | | \ > (~) SS1 ` ----------| > __|__ 1mhz __|__ > --- --- > . . > >Eliminate the transformers. Real transformers have dispersion (ie., their >delay varies with frequency). Instead, use voltage dividers and terminated >coax lines to 'scope: Terminate each coax at the scope with its >characteristic impedance, 50 or 75 ohm, as appropriate. This makes the coax >look like a pure resistance at the other end, no matter what its length. >Now make a voltage divider. For example, a 7500 ohm resistor in series with >the signal input end of a 75 ohm coax would give a 101:1 divider. The exact >value of the division is not important. It should be large enough not to >load your experimental circuit too much, but not so large that you cannot >read the divided signals well at the 'scope. Excellent suggestion. The bandwidth to the scope will exceed DC-1GHZ easily, providing the potential to resolve a foot long length of electrical signal. If your scope can see it, anyway... > >The long wire will radiate. Consider making the long wire run a two-wire >transmission line instead, like in the old radio days, if it is consistnet >with your experiment. > Oddly, I found this not to be the case. Having a good low impedence ground connection made the resulting RF cavity Q quite high, as Jim will discover if he rings up the line. Personally, I'd use aluminum foil. Alot of it. Get the heavy kind, it'll last longer. >Get the 'scope physically far from the line. Make the two coax lines longer >than half the length of the long wire, so the scope is at the apex of an >isoceles triangle far from the wire. 75 ohm coax is cheap, because it's >used so much for TV cables. You can buy 30 m (100 foot) lengths at eg. >Radio Shack; might need connector adaptors to go between F and BNC. Run the >coax on the surface of the ground as much as possible, to minimize >propagation along the outside of the coax. > This mode is called a surface wave, and travels at speed C along the outer shielding of the coax. It will appear as a common mode signal on the scope...watch for this. It will become more apparent as you make the legs of the triangle longer and longer. >I worry about alternate paths via the 60 Hz power lines. Just because one >sees no evidence of a 60 Hz ground loop does not prove that one has no RF >ground loop. I recommend using local power at the generator and another >local power source at the 'scope. Either a portable gasoline powered >generator or storage battery and DC-AC invertor would do. > I'd leave the scope on the 60hz and battery power the oscillator and chopper, you'll likely end up building these units anyway. I assume R1 and R2 are the same value, say 1 ohm? So long as you're measuring the same thing on either end. Also make sure the transition occurs in a reasonably short time, say a few nanoseconds. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 21:06:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12436; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:58:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:58:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34BB0FD9.23B8 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:55:21 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Repost Water as Fuel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ReWAb1.0.323.VHlkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts! Can't believe it, didn't check before sending and sure enough, left off the .com from keelynet...giving up generic drugs...so here it is again; Hi Folks! Finally got around to posting the 1935 Garrett patent with full details describing the demonstration of a 4 cylinder auto, operated solely from water taken from White Rock Lake in Dallas in 1934. There is much additional information in the file along with the 4 drawings showing its construction. Another file on a commercial unit that uses ultrasonics and water to provide oxygen also pertains. If you might be interested in such information, files are available at; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ultraoxy.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/docx.htm or the master list; http://www.keelynet.com/files.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 21:20:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16461; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:17:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:17:51 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:04:53 -0800 Subject: Re: electron Message-ID: <19980112.210456.3606.1.tv juno.com> References: <4350951c.34baad22 aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-14 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"sWlCC3.0.614.zZlkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:54:09 EST FZNIDARSIC writes: >Two electrons were walking down the road. The one said to the other, >"I've lost an electron!" The other replied, "Are you sure?" The first >answered, "Yes I'm positive!" > >Frank Z Good one frank, but shouldn't that be two atoms (or ions) ? Tim Vaughan ( tv juno.com ) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 21:39:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14099; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:33:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:33:50 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP progress Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:29:06 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd1fe4$2aeb2520$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"UEOPC.0.CS3.yolkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 7:21 PM Subject: BLP progress >Today I baked the chamber at ~250C under high vacuum for 8 hours with the >filament at 15 watts and the cartridge heater at 15 watts. I then filled >it with 2 torr of H gas and sealed it off leaving the heater powers steady. > Pressure rose to 3 torr over a 10 minute period (due to the gas warming up >fully?) and then stayed constant for over an hour. This is the number that I'm impressed with,Scott. Your H2 "scrubber" should act as a porous plug and since the H2 is above the 205 deg K inversion temperature, the Joule-Thomson Effect says the H2 should increase in temperature upon expansion into the 150 cm^3 chamber meaning nil heat-up time beyond that provided as you bled the H2 in. With about 1.0E19 H2 molecules in the chamber where did the addional 0.5E19 molecules come from? No pressure gain from 2 H2 + O2. The Light Lepton-Hydrino theory would attribute these as LLs generated by interaction of H2 and the tungsten filament, without which the BLP o.u. effects are down the tube. Now lets see if the Potassium "catalyst" will couple these to hydrogen to release the Hydrino (o.u.) energy. :-) > >At that time, I turned >off the cartridge heater and increased the filament power to 30 watts. The >pressure stayed constant at 3 torr for the next hour (then I had to shut >down for the evening). Saturation, or lower yield at higher filament temperature? > >This looks much better. Tomorrow I'll take everything apart, put the KNO3 >vial back in, put in a new filament, and bake the system out similarly >before filling with H gas. Looking Good, Scott. Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 21:53:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20523; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:41:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:41:52 -0800 Message-ID: <34BB1A18.2176 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:39:04 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water as Fuel References: <34BAD6C2.DC5 keelynet.com> <34BADA2A.9822AC89@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TTtr-3.0.X05.Twlkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts John et al! John Berry wrote; > May I suggest that you copy and paste url's so you have no errors. I'll never 'have NO errors'....., but better yet, send it to myself first to recheck....when I post a new file on the website, I always check to make sure the URL works, caught quite a few that way, but mail is slower to get back...... I keep forgetting to add the report from our local machinist friend Ron Moore where he used an aircraft spark plug to put out a helluva spark to explode fuel. He said it would put out a 1" spark underwater...he got his plugs from a local aircraft surplus dealer. Perhaps the Doc X experiment using an aircraft sparkplug sending out a high intensity 42.8khz burst would explode water in a cylinder chamber to drive a piston.....this was Dale Ponds idea (based on Keely's water dissociation frequency of 42.8khz) that was ripped off by Stan Meyer. It is an excellent idea, but probably dangerous....with Doc X, the standing wave was what kept the energy contained before exploding. Keely reported 3 drops yielded 29,000 psi. Perhaps a standing wave could be injected into a single drop for a less powerful explosion, but still enough to drive a piston. Seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 22:10:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17594; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:58:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:58:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BB0238.B660C569 microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:27:12 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: UpDate 13th Jan, 1998 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3Yo9F2.0.hI4.TAmkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Looks like the possible patent infringments of SMOT may be too big of a problem for a future Dmec device. Seems like the suits think I am NUTs for the open disclosure approach I have adopted. I have suggested that the first item of business for Dmec will be to remove the SMOT device from the agreement between Dmec and my family trust. I have verbal agreement on this and may be able to ship the SMOTs in about 3 weeks. Anyone interested in manufacturing? Best Regards, Greg Watson PS: Suggest you review Hal Puthoff's work on ZPF, Inertia & the Casimir effect. ZPF & domain alignment tie in. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 22:48:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20377; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:24:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:24:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BAFAA6.799A earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:24:54 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Shanahan: Rothwell: recombination mistake References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B2CB0A.3A7F@earthlink.net> <34B6528A.627B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H0DvK2.0.J-4.OYmkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: I was wrong! (on one point at least) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:14 -0400 (EDT) From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov To: rmforall earthlink.net Rich, One more please... Thanks. Kirk -------------------------------------------------------- Jed Rothwell wrote: >Kirk Shanahan writes: > > Figure 8c shows that the excess heat is limited to about 20-25% tops of > the input. That's well within the usual 'recombination' error bars if > faradaic efficieny is not accounted for. > >The cell is closed. 100% recombination occurs within it if. If it did not, the >cell would explode. YES! I messed up! I admit it! Thank you for pointing it out! Does it change my basic level of concern regarding Prof. Arata's work. Slightly, in that I still don't have a good alternate explanation for how you can get excess heat in a closed cell configuration. Since I don't, I can't reject the data interpretation. But, I am thinking about it...I certainly will let you know if I come up with what I consider a viable alternative explanation. > Murray made this same error. The point being...? >In other papers, which Shanahan evidently did not read, excess much greater >than 25% of input power is shown. In some cases input is zero and excess >continues in heat after death beyond levels that can be accounted for by >degassing. > > Mind pointing to the specific refs. for my benefit? > Mr. Rothwell completely misrepresents the situation with regards to my > participation in Vortex and the PPC discussions on spf and Vortex. > Interestingly he dredges up an old post he made and tries to use it to > discredit me , but what is so amusing is that he actually documents one > of the points I was trying to get across back then, namely that the flow > in the PowerGen demo was near or at zero in my opinion. > >The post contains a long list of specific reasons demonstrating that the flow >rate at PowerGen could not have been 0.21 ml per minute. This proves that >Shanahan's opinion is incorrect. He never responded to this post. I will defer on this until I return from my travel. I do note that I usually stop responding when I can't seem to make my point, or when as I suggested, my correspondent makes my point as well. I will also state that in '96, I concluded that the Patterson Power Cell was subject to a systemic error leading to the false assumption that the measured delta T represents the true average mass temperature. I recommended redundant temperature readings to resolve the issue. To my knowledge no one has done this so far on a PPC that is showing excess energy. I will also state that I noted a second, probably critical, problem with the PowerGen demo PPC, namely that the pump used to circulate the fluid was inadequate. I pointed out my concerns and suggested what needed to be done to address them, but again nothing of that sort was done. > It does not >matter how old the post is or how many time I dredge it up: facts are facts. >You could not possibly record a Delta T as large as 8 to 16 degrees with such >a slow flow rate. Sorry Jed, but no flow is just static calorimetry, and you can read any temperature at all depending on what is happening in the cell. With no flow, you are just back to a modified F&P-type cell, and with recombination you could theoretically get up to a nominal 100% excess (all the power in returned). > You could not see the bubbles move and hear the water flow >into the reservoir if the flow rate was only one drop per minute. > The bubbles are produced by the electrolysis, and move based on several factors such as rate of gas production, buoyancy, flow restrictions, etc. The liquid flow represents a secondary modification to gas flow rate only. Gas flow will occur as long as electrolysis proceeds. In '96' I allowed that your aural data indicated that the flow was not absolutely stopped. I hope you are not trying to tell me you can measure flow rate by ear... >Since Shanahan refuses to address the issues I raised, he loses by default. I >myself have never ducked or evaded any debate. > Sorry again Jed, but you can make as many arguments as you like, and I can get so upset that I drop dead from a heart attack. You can turn blue in the face and scream at the top of your lungs. But an invalid argument is invalid, whoever makes it, irregardless of that person's pedigree and qualifications. The fact that arguments continue simply indicates insufficient data has been presented to resolve the issues. A scientist recognizes this. If that scientist is in a position to experiment, he or she does so in the hopes of generating conclusive data. If not, he or she simply has to be content with presenting his/her case as clearly as possible. Anything beyond that is hot air. > > It is safe to say that Mr. Rothwell and I hold diametrically opposed > opinions, and neither of us shows much sign of relenting. > >Yes, but I present copious evidence to support my opinions, whereas Shanahan >shuffles and jives and cuts and runs. Sorry, you present other people's 'evidence', which most of us have already seen. You typically draw more conclusions from it that I feel is warranted, and you never accept any alternative explanation that doesn't require CF to be present. By the way, I'm glad you feel I'm such a good 'player'. I feel that a person should remain flexible and changeable, simply because no one is perfect. I make mistakes, and admit them when others point them out to me. On the other hand, I am not a wimp that quits just because somebody shouts, "You're wrong!". > He should explain how a flow of one >drop per minute made all the splashing and noise shown in the ABC video >closup of the PowerGen cell. That video, shown on national television, proves >beyond all doubt that he is wrong. I gave a dozen other reasons, but that >alone suffices. Since you keep harping on this point, I guess you must think it is a particularly bothersome one. I agree. The fact that you can hear fluid flowing is not too significant in and of itself. The pump might well have been working. So what? Is it the same pump that was used at PowerGen? Are all the conditions the same? The real problem is whether the measurements and the calculations leading to a claimed excess heat are valid or not. I have proposed a mechanism regarding how they might not be valid. > On a more general note, Mr. Rothwell thinks I should call up Prof. Arata > and talk to him about all these missing details. >I do not need to do that. I have read his papers in English and Japanese, and >spoken to him many times at conferences. I have no open questions about his >work. Umm Jed, we are taking about _me_ calling him up, not you. You said I should call him up for details. I was simply pointing out that the norm is to put enough detail in your publications so that researchers who wish to replicate the work can _without_ getting on a plane to visit you. Believe me, traveling is a pain, and trying to decide why your replication attempt failed over the phone is a nightmare. > Issues relating to the spillover theory and loading palladium black do >not concern me, and they are mostly over my head. I am only interested in his >calorimetry. In my judgement it is solid. I am also glad you realize you are judging here. When I judge a scientific publication, I look at the conclusions drawn, and the data and interpretations used to support those conclusions. When I find a conclusion (such as that 'spillover' occurs) that seems to be clearly wrong, it does affect the degree to which I readily accept the rest of the author's conclusions. Sometimes, a single false conclusion is not that important, and it might be that the 'spillover effect' is a case in point. Other times, it is an integral part of the whole scenario that seems wrong. > Mr. Rothwell seems to be forgetting the original F&P situation. They > made a press release, with no experimental details in it. Scientists > the world over wanted to replicate the work, but they either had to > invent the techniques (and often ended up way off the F&P conditions), > or they tried to call F&P like Mr. Rothwell suggests. Of course, > according to the Taubes book, F&P got so many calls that took so long to > answer (describing experiments is time consuming, especially without > something written to work with) that they gave up answering the phone. > Apparently Mr. Rothwell wants to subject Prof. Arata to the same > phenomemon. >This is evasive nonsense. It is a red herring. The situation is nothing like >it was in 1989. Arata's phone is not ringing off the hook. Yep, and neither do I feel the need to rush right out and duplicate the experiment as people did in '89. Again, so what? I was commenting about your suggestion to me and attempting to illustrate why that approach isn't necessarily what I would do. The _normal_ assumption a would-be author should make when writing a publication is that he or she should include enough detail to allow a person skilled in the art to replicate the experiments. If that sounds a lot like a patent, you are right, the only difference is whether the author feels there is intellectual property to protect with a patent. Perhaps I should just stop trying to explain how science is done to you, and simply say I'm not interested enough. However, I will say (again) that if you publish without the experimental details, you might as well have sent an article to the Wall Street Journal. > Zhang will probably >answer any serious inquiry. Perhaps she will ignore inquiries from people like >Murray and Shanahan, who pay so little attention that they fail to notice the >cell is closed and recombination cannot be an issue. I hope the other readers of this notice what is happening. Mr. Rothwell found a mistake I made. So...obviously the rest of what I say is wrong too. Obviously I have no skills worth applying here, and I should probably go try ditch digging as a job. Sorry Jed, I don't agree. So I made a mistake. I never claimed to be perfect, just to have some relevant thoughts for others to consider. I still do. > When one writes up a scientific paper that you hope to publish in a > respected journal (which is usually a peer-reviewed one), the norm is to > include enough details in the paper that a skilled scientist could > replicate it. >A skilled scientist could replicate Arata in a couple of years of hard work. A >person who does not even notice what kind of calorimeter he uses could not. I doubt it. With the details as they stand now, it would be like trying to replicate F&P. On the other hand, if A&Z conformed to the scientific norm, it would probably take less than 6 months for experts in the field(s) to replicate (assuming A&Z are correct). >What we really have here is a new and unheard of standard for science, >developed by the "skeptics" for cold fusion and cold fusion alone. They want >more and more detail. They demand that every paper include a 200 page tutorial >on electrochemistry. Papers about hot fusion do not contain step by step >instructions for building tokamak reactors. Papers describing the top quark >experiment does not include enough information to build Fermilab from scratch. >Papers about new semiconductors do not recapitulate every bit of knowledge >needed to make a semiconductor fabrication plant. Papers describing the >cloning of an adult sheep do not teach people how to do basic biology. I forget what the polite term for this tactic is. The impolite on is 'a lot of BS'. No experimental details is no experimental details. Where did I ask for the textbook that Mr. Rothwell suggests? That is Jed's invention, and it is a typical illogical strawman. The standards are simple. Publish enough to allow others to replicate, help resolve the issues found during those attempts. That is particularly important when it comes to recognizing mistakes in your own work. > In the CF case though, there seems to be no incorporation of discussions > and critiques into ongoing research. Instead new things are tried and > old problems remain unresolved. >What absurd nonsense! Typical. Show me a CF researcher who claims CF is present in their open cell who is dynamically measuring Faradaic efficiency. Show me the replication of any one CF research groups results by another's. > 'Dissidents' are barred from (or perhaps 'not invited' to) conferences, > and ad hominem becomes the rule. >Ah, a new one! Shanahan is circulating a brand new Big Lie. No doubt he made >that one up today in a moment of inspiration. As far as I know, nobody has >ever been barred from attending a CF conference except the "Half Moon" review, >a DoE skeptic-fest (See the Hoffman book.) In reality, conferences are >announced months in advance on Internet, and advertised in our magazine. >Announcements reach the widest possible audience, given the funding available >for this purpose, zero dollars. Not a new one from me. The talk of the Internet prior to ICCF5 was that all the 'skeptics' who had presented at ICCF4 weren't even invited to ICCF5. The words were that 'negativism' was 'detrimental' to the field. Most of them took the brickbat hint and didn't come. >Well . . . I expect Richard Blue, Rich Murray and the others will soon be >parroting this new damn nonsense. Of course they will, because they saw it too back then! > The accusations will fly! "Dissidents are >barred from attending conferences!" they will say. When you try to pin them >down and ask who has been barred, when it happened, or who barred them, they >will evade the issue, They will change the subject, and accuse you of ad >hominem attacks. Shanahan is not accusing any particular person or >organization, and of course he will refuse to do so. Note above. I explained what I was referring to. The other evidence of the 'circling the CF wagons' phenomemon is Arata's 'apparent' refusal to read about Pd chemistry, while doing chemical experiments that supposedly shake the foundations of nuclear physics. Check any recent (post '91 say) CF paper and see how many non-CF papers they reference in a good or even neutral light. Another part of good science is drawing from related research to support (or refute) your ideas. (The basic idea being that what is determine from one area can apply in the right situations to other areas.) > He makes a blanket >allegation about a whole group of people instead, which cannot be easily >disproved. OK, so did you get that above...the organizers of ICCF5 deliberately did not request the participation of anyone who attended the prior ICCFs if they had presented 'negative' results, according to the open discussions on the Internet at the time. I didn't go to ICCF5, I didn't write the supposedly 'banned' people, but all I claim is that I noted the pre- and post-ICCF5 reports. For a specific example, check Douglas Morrison's report on ICCF5 currently found on John Logajan's web page. The first paragraph clearly states that he did not receive an invite, yet he _was_ a presenter at prior conferences. Morrison also suggests that others were 'neglected', but I couldn't say if he has 'proof'. The funny thing is that I had no particular reason to do more than pay attention to the goings on. On the other had, Mr. Rothwell, you are the reporter. Why didn't you follow-up on this? Did you ask Jones and Hansen if they were invited? How about the Bose group? They had publications originating from that time frame, surely they would have wanted to make a presentation. In fat the Jones and Hansen paper you love to hate was presaged by an ICCF4 (or maybe 3) presentation. What you choose to ignore and what you don't is interesting. > After all, somebody, somewhere may once have been barred from a CF >conference. It's plausible; it might have happened; we cannot prove it did not >happen. This is the new standard for "attack radio," and it is perfect for >Internet. You circulate as fact any damn notion that pops into your head, as >long as it seems plausible and you do not attack specific people by name. Rich >Murray gets to circulate it hands off. No blame attaches, because he can say >hey, it wasn't me, it was Shanahan. >- Jed Looks like I'm going to have to sign back on to Vortex to relieve Rich of middleman duties. For the other readers of this, I know very few 'facts', and most of them can be gleaned from reading textbooks, like I referenced for some background on Pd chemistry. Take a look at my sig, and realize I am expressing my opinion. You can take it or leave it as you wish, but if you comment about what I say, I reserve the right to respond. Either to admit my mistakes, ask for clarification, or point out what I see as flaws in your argument. As long as I am learning I won't get bored. Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 22:59:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23404; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:47:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:47:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BB0033.2502 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:48:35 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Chubb: re Bosons in, Bosons out References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B2CB0A.3A7F@earthlink.net> <34B6528A.627B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BQExq3.0.bj5.Fumkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: "bosons in and bosons out" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:05:34 -0500 From: Scott Chubb To: blue pilot.msu.edu, rmforall@earthlink.net To: blue pilot.msu.edu Subj: Re: bosons in bosons out....self-consistency, and presence of H Hi Dick, I agree that the Arata set-up isolates the Pd black from the electrolyte and this provides a means in principle for eliminating Li and other unwanted impurities. However, the set-up does allow for the dissociation and eventual diffusion of both H and D. In fact, just as the D may occupy ion bands, the H may occupy ion band states. The accompanying scenario is of the form D+[band] +D+[band]->4He++[band] or D+[band] +H+[band]->3He++[band]. In the earlier papers, we did not emphasize the point that the "bosons in and bosons out" rule is not and if and only if statement; in particular, "not bosons out" means "not bosons in". All of these rules are tied to a very specific picture; one in which the solid, as a whole, maintains periodic order through coherent resonant processes. This limit becomes rigorous in the extreme low temperature case. And it leads to the rule that the final states are always within band states in bulk regions; these band states may reversibly fluctuate with the initial states, which are also in band states within the bulk. Energy release then occurs at the boundaries through changes in the logarithmic derivatives of the band state ions of both the initial and final states. With respect to your comments about the pressure, it might interest you to know that Talbot (my uncle) in fact has designed a scheme in which increased pressure is used to induce the reactions. So, there are some people who have already thought about your idea. I am glad to see you're thinking about this! I inadvertently erased the message that you forwarded through Rich Murray where you said something about Li. I would appreciate getting a copy from you. It looked interesting. I should point out that there is a problem with having either Li or He (for that matter) occurring in a band state, initially. It seems implausible at best for either of these species to occupy ion band states because of the large energy required to effectively ionize either of these species. In the case of H and D, however, independent information exists that suggests these two nuclei will occupy ion band states. CHEERS, SCOTT From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 23:08:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04912; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:04:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:04:27 -0800 Message-ID: <34BB0462.2F6B earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:06:26 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, lucille@telis.org, rollo artvark.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil Subject: Josephson: QM including mind References: <34B59278.6FAE earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dmuyQ.0.bC1.u7nkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: questions about empirical fit Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:37:41 -0800 From: Jack Sarfatti Organization: Internet Science Education Project To: bdj10 cam.ac.uk References: 1 Brian Josephson wrote: > --On Fri, Jan 9, 1998 10:00 am -0800 "Jack Sarfatti" > wrote: > > > Yes, that is the conjecture. If consciousness is a Q* effect on a large > > scale, > > I understand what Q and B are (I think) but I was probably in a 'right, > let's delete all this lot to get some room to breathe' mood when Q* > surfaced. Can you say what it is exactly? Q is defined in Bohm and Hiley's The Undivided Universe from the Schrodinger equation in polar-form. The part of the Schrodinger equation that corresponds to the extension of the classical mechanical Hamilton-Jacobi equation has Q added to the classical V. V is preassigned and form-independent/intensity-dependent to use Bohm's terms. In contrast, Q is not preassigned and is form-dependent and intensity-independent. I use Stapp's "rocklike" to denote pre-assigned classical coupling, form-independence and "thoughtlike" to denote not-classically pre-assigned, form-dependent / intensity-independent. Consider an extended complex many-point particle system, e.g., toy model for a quantum computer or brain. The classical potential V, can have instantaneous Coulomb-like dependence between the source and field points, where each point particle is a test-particle at the field point as well as being a source of field. Although there can be many-particle classical potentials in configuration space, this is generally not the case e.g. Coulomb force. So in this sense, we can say that the timelike classical potential acts locally in ordinary space on the test-particle at the field point. Similarly, the vector potential A (spacelike part of the special relativistic 4-potential) responsible for motional Lorentz-force acts locally in the ordinary space of the test charge at the classical field point. This is in contrast to the quantum potential Q, which in the presence of nonlocal entanglements, acts directly in the configuration space of the entangled point particles making interesting nonclassical nonlocal and form-dependent effects, that, I say, are prerequisite for any physical theory of thought. Furthermore, there is a clear conflict between classical special relativity and this nonlocal quantum feature spelled out by Bohm, Hiley, Vigier and most recently by Oliver Cohen who got his Ph.D. with Hiley at Birkbeck. *You should hire Oliver (even part-time) if you have any money. He has a first-class theoretical mind. If you send me a proposal for money for your Mind-Matter Unification Project at Cambridge University, I will try to raise something. Even small amounts are better than nothing. In addition to the problem of the conflict between classical special relativity and quantum nonlocality seen in the requirement of a preferred frame of absolute rest, that is operationally defined in terms of classical general relativity solutions (Hubble flow), we have the fact noticed by Bohm, that unlike any classical force field, psi, from which Q derives, has no direct or "self-sources". For example, a non-relativistic particle does not directly generate any part of its guiding Q. Q, from the boundary conditions on psi, and the classical forces, in which it is a passive test-particle, come entirely from other particles in the environment. In fact, Bohm shows that conservation of probability current in configuration space of the beable B depends on this assumption. Michael Ibison, also a former student of Hiley's, independently recognized the relevance of this fact in formulating a physical theory of thought influencing matter, quite similar to my idea. So what I mean by Q* is the post-quantum extension of Bohm's Q to include this direct self-dependence. Peter Holland in his book, The Quantum Theory of Motion, has also noted this possibility, but has not developed its consequences mathematically. Bohm and Hiley show that this idea is a way of explaining the objective spontaneous reduction of psi in the Ghirardi-Rimini-Weber (GRW) post-quantum model. Q* corresponds to a kind of universal objective "quantum friction" according to Dimitri Nanopoulos. Bohm and Hiley, also explain Eberhard's theorem, i.e., impossibility of nonlocal communication, in terms of the "fragility" of Q. This "fragility" means the "one-way" guidance influence of Q on its attached beable B that I picture as "Q -> B" in a kind of chemical notation. Adding the post-quantum "direct back-action" of B on its guiding Q generates Q*, i.e., Q* <- B. Probability current is no longer conserved. This post-quantum theory is "nonunitary" fundamentally. Stuart Kauffman's ideas of biological "spontaneous self-organization" with "fitness landscapes" makes sense when Q* <->B. Q* forms a fitness landscape in B's configuration space. The <-> feedback-control loop between Q* and B implies that Q* and B co-evolve, pumped by the classical environmental force couplings and the dynamic boundary conditions on psi, which together account from Kauffman's "natural selection pressures" from the environment leading to "environmental decoherence" of the post-quantum density matrix (distinct from intrinsic self-organizing "quantum friction"). So I thinkm of Q* as the physical field of thought or "mind", with the beable B as "matter". Q* -> B is how the field of thought, in the configuration space of the extended brain B, changes that brain configuration. The back-action Q* <- B is how classical sensory information is imprinted on the field of thought to generate qualia of all kinds. This seems a natural additional axiom to make. It removes the mystery of mind-matter in a testable way. It is compatible with Penrose, Stapp and your own ideas, but adds a new intuitive dimension enabling visualization, and connecting it to Stuart Kauffman's new biology IMHO. > > > > > > Spacetime, matter and energy are all at the rocklike beable B level. > > This level is > > classical and Einstein's relativity works there when one can neglect the > > intrusion > > of the thoughtlike Q. So you made a mistake about where you placed > > "spacetime". > > Relativity is the four-dimensional geometry of classical spacetime which > > is itself > > on the B (beable) side of Nature's dualistic divide between the > > thoughtlike and > > the rocklike properties of natural physical reality IMHO. > > > > I have a way of thinking about this which agrees with that: mind creates > and stablilises space for it to act as an arena where it can do things like > hold things apart in a well-defined way. > > Brian > > -------- > > Brian D. Josephson > voice: +44(0) 1223 337260 > fax: +44(0) 1223 337356 > WWW: http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 12 23:34:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27296; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:14:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:14:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:17:03 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Be9 - good news and bad news? Resent-Message-ID: <"xAdmV2.0.Lg6.SHnkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:24 PM 1/12/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>Be9 has some chock full of goodies reactions, lots of neutron amplifying >>possibilities, but the elastic scattering cross section certainly is large. >>Maybe that is good for stripping? > >Also, few machine shops will want to machine anything with Be in it for you >due to the extreme health hazard associated with it. And if they do, they >will charge a premium. > >Later, Ross Tessien There is no way I would ever personally attempt to produce massive amounts of neutrons! One or two now and then from a CF experiment ... well that's another matter. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 01:07:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06064; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:57:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:57:44 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 Message-ID: <321d8bd3.34bb2c41 aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 03:56:32 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Electrogravitics Motor experiment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"D_4sc.0.eU1.6ookq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear All, I have updated my web site with an intersting document about a motor which uses the electrogravitics effect, this device has been built by Patrick Cornille and his team and we have conducted this experiment and the test recently, I hope that this will interest you. You will find this document at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/elecmtr.htm Happy new year 98, Sincerely, ( This mail has been sent at 0815 GMT on January 13, 1998 ) Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+1 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 01:41:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22939; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:24:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:24:54 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:28:23 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: WAS LOOKING FOR FRANK ZNIDARSIK Resent-Message-ID: <"A2_pk3.0.Gc5.aBpkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Frank, I still can't reach you at AOL.com, but that's OK. Since you have decided to keep the SC a while I withdraw my offer. I have a number of other experiments in the queue, so have decided to pursue them instead with the few bucks I have left. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 04:27:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18186; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 04:15:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 04:15:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BB7621.62B4 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:11:45 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Challenge to Time Travellers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IW-Ac1.0.vR4.Zhrkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts and Howdy! Recently, I removed some files purporting to be from some 'time travellers'. In 'retaliation' they posted a file with half-truths and repeating their claims. To my view, Time Travel should be something that can be proven, whether physical or mental. Really quite easily. I posted one method and am looking for other ways someone who claims to be able to traverse time could be tested, irrefutably. If you have some ideas, please read and post them; http://keelynet.com/time/proof.htm I remember a couple of years ago, there was a fellow spamming the various newsgroups with an email asking; "if anyone from the future reads this and time travel has been discovered, could they come back to this time and provide him with the winning lottery numbers so he could invest in the discovery of time travel that would let them traverse time in the first place." This will be fun, the dog will either hunt or it won't. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 05:25:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15011; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:17:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:17:15 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34BB5967.6C516129 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:09:11 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water as Fuel References: <34BAC11D.745A keelynet.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------386DA93EF1D5C0B4DD42FD7" Resent-Message-ID: <"cdf6W.0.Tg3.Qbskq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------386DA93EF1D5C0B4DD42FD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, The correct url's for Jerry's reference are attached. Jack Smith --------------386DA93EF1D5C0B4DD42FD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Hi Folks! Finally got around to posting the 1935 Garrett patent with full details describing the demonstration of a 4 cylinder auto, operated solely from water taken from White Rock Lake in Dallas in 1934. There is much additional information in the file along with the 4 drawings showing its construction. Another file on a commercial unit that uses ultrasonics and water to provide oxygen also pertains. If you might be interested in such information, files are available at; http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ultraoxy.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/docx.htm or the master list; http://www.keelynet.com/files.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://www.keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 --------------386DA93EF1D5C0B4DD42FD7-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 05:29:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14846; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:15:21 -0800 Message-ID: <001401bd2025$21b598f0$a142ddcf craig.ix.netcom.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: UpDate 13th Jan, 1998 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:14:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"-l-y_3.0.sd3.eZskq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Greg Watson >Hi All, > >Looks like the possible patent infringments of SMOT may be too big of a >problem for a future Dmec device. Hello Greg! Just sell the SMOT and if someone complains, keep a good chunk of the money as a pay-off. Or, just make an agreement ahead of time with the holders of the Hartman patent if you're convinced that you're work is derived from it. Craig Haynie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 06:01:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29945; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:56:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:56:14 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BB7173.50955D46 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:51:47 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yusmar References: <2229fc91.34baa84a aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fR4rJ1.0.nJ7.w9tkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC wrote: > That was the last try. The temp is adjusted to 160F and the water flashed to > steam in the low pressure venturi. OK. I see what is going on now. Thanks. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 06:11:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22005; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:07:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:07:01 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BB74BF.E98C55E0 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:05:51 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Water as Fuel References: <34BAD6C2.DC5 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F68Db2.0.eN5.3Ktkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/14999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry wrote: > http://www.keelynet/energy/ultraoxy.htm > http://www.keelynet/energy/garrett.htm > http://www.keelynet/energy/docx.htm > > or the master list; http://www.keelynet.htm/files.htm Jerry- You are missing some characters in above addresses: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ultraoxy.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/docx.htm http://www.keelynet.com/files.htm Thanks for posting the information. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 06:27:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24462; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:24:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:24:57 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:16:09 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Shanahan vrs reality Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801130919_MC2-2F1A-1D4C compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"YcT801.0.7-5.tatkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net; >INTERNET:kirk.shanahan@srs.gov Kirk Shanahan practices more fancy two-step evasions, and he deliberately twists my words. I promise I will not respond again, but I cannot let this pass. He writes: The fact that you can hear fluid flowing is not too significant in and of itself. The pump might well have been working. So what? Is it the same pump that was used at PowerGen? Are all the conditions the same? I wrote that I could hear it *and see it*. That was true at PowerGen and on the ABC broadcast. The tubes and the pump reservoir are transparent plastic. You can see the water flowing through the tubes, you can see entrained bubbles moving rapidly, you can see the water dropping back into the reservoir, and you can hear it splash. There is NOT WAY the flow rate could be only a fraction of a milliliter per minute, so Shanahan's hypothesis is wrong. There is something strange going on when a scientific debate becomes stalled over issues like this. The question boils down to this: Can an ordinary person watch water move through tubes and splash back into a plastic reservoir and tell whether he is seeing a drop every minute or a liter per minute? Can we seriously question the ability of a sane human being to make such an observation?!? It is like questioning my ability to stir 200 ml of water and measure the temperature with three thermometers: I am not going to get it wrong by 17 degrees Celsius. It is like debating whether an observer 20 meters from the road on a sunny day can tell whether a car is moving at ~5 mph or ~100 miles per hour. For Shanahan's hypothesis to be true, George Miley, Dennis Cravens, Akira Kawasaki, Michael Guillen, me and many other observers who saw the water flowing rapidly would have to be blind, deaf, delusional, drunk, or the boldest liars in history. CETI would have had to arrange a fantastic optical and audio illusion to fool Guillen and millions of television viewers. (Guillen is a PhD physicist who understands the basis of the claims.) I expect Shanahan sincerely believes that we could be fooled and it is possible to make one drop look like one liter, but I find that hypothesis impossibly far-fetched, and utterly divorced from everyday reality and common sense. I cannot fathom Shanahan's thought processes. I cannot imagine how any person with scientific training or experience in the real world could take that idea seriously and repeatedly promote it on Internet. Frankly, the people who believe in UFO abductions pay more attention to common sense observations than extremist "skeptics" like Shanahan. Period, full stop. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 07:09:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29088; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:46:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:46:41 -0800 Message-ID: <34BBA1F8.75B2 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:18:48 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrogravitics Motor experiment References: <321d8bd3.34bb2c41 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b8V_P2.0.O67.Fvtkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 wrote: > > Dear All, > > I have updated my web site with an intersting document about a motor which > uses the electrogravitics effect, this device has been built by Patrick > Cornille and his team and we have conducted this experiment and the test > recently, I hope that this will interest you. Bonjour, Jean-Louis! I have a question; but, not about electrogravitics. Your name is mentioned on the web site: http://www.open.org/davidc/index.htm regarding testing of an inertial drive mechanism. It looks like an interesting construction project. Did you ever build one; and, if so, did it work? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 08:25:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10412; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:18:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:18:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:18:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Spam hints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yBKxE3.0.SY2.0Fvkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Geosas wrote: It is sometimes possible to get spammers shut down (although it usually only works with the stupid ones.) Determine the spammer's Internet Service Provider, then send a complaint to the "abuse" and "postmaster" address at that service. To find the ISP address, list the entire message with all headers, not just the FROM:, TO:, etc. For example, a message that looks like this: Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:02:49 -0500 (EST) From: Jenny To: Subject: GREAT NEW SITE!!! ... in reality has a header like this: Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14113 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:02:52 -0800 Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.8)) id RAA01092; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:02:50 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from bklimek (ts015d37.lap-ca.concentric.net [206.173.172.241]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id RAA24850; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:02:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:02:49 -0500 (EST) From: Jenny To: Message-Id: <18161.235798.58489097 billb eskimo.com> Subject: GREAT NEW SITE!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do whatever is necessary to obtain the whole message header. In PINE, I save it to a new folder, then exit pine and print that folder. In other mail programs there might be a "full headers" menu selection. Only the first "received" cannot be faked. In the above message, the "Jenny usa.net" is almost certainly fake, so ignore it. "From" headers are easy to fake. This spam was sent using CONCENTRIC.NET. Therefor, send your complaint to two addresses: postmaster concentric.net, and abuse@concentric.net, and attach the spam message with its complete headers. This can have two effects: if the concentric.net people can determine the message origin, they can remove the offending account. Secondly, some ISPs have unprotected email servers which forward any message (and can be used to hide the origin of spammers.) If these ISPs get lots of complaints, they will change their server to plug the spammers hole. (This actually does happen.) If you have access to UNIX, there is something else you can try. If the spam message contains a webpage URL, you can use the unix WHOIS command to determine the actual provider who rents space to that webpage, then complain to that provider. For example, the message body from the above spam was this: Hey Sexy, Think The Holidays Are Over, Well They Are Still Going At http://www.sexlimit.com Check Out http://www.sexpicsforfree.com For Use the last two words of a webpage addr with "whois" like this: whois sexlimit.com This gives the following result: Knierim, Terry (SEXLIMIT-DOM) 900 Las Pavadas ave San Rafael, CA 94903 Domain Name: SEXLIMIT.COM Administrative Contact: Knierim, Terry (TK2810) blahblah29 HOTMAIL.COM 415-472-1749 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Hostmaster, WebCom (WH513) hostmaster WEBCOM.COM (408) 457-9671 Billing Contact: Knierim, Terry (TK2810) blahblah29 HOTMAIL.COM 415-472-1749 Record last updated on 15-Dec-97. Record created on 15-Dec-97. Database last updated on 13-Jan-98 04:06:07 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS.WEBCOM.COM 209.1.28.62 NS2.WEBCOM.COM 209.1.28.35 In the above addresses I would ignore the "hotmail" addresses, since it's one of those cheap email sites, and the owner's name is the same as the owner of the spamming site. (If you send your complaint to the spammer, at the very least they will know that your address is good, and can be sold to other spammers!) But WEBCOM.COM, that's different. WEBCOM.COM is also listed as the domain name server at the bottom, so it is probably a professional site. Check out webcom by looking at http://www.webcom.com. If it doesn't look like a spammer's server (no ads for "bulk email hosting), then it's worthwhile to complain. Forward the offending spam message to hostmaster webcom.com, abuse webcom.com, postmaster@webcom.com, and billing@webcom.com. This should get you noticed. I've been doing this for awhile, and have received numerous messages saying "customer's account was terminated. It actually worked TOO well: once I complained about spam, but found out later that some fool at a legitimate company had hired a spammer to do their internet advertizing, and their ISP kicked their website off the net! One last thing: never send a message to a suggested "remove" address. Spammers use this trick to "harvest" known-good email addresses, which they then put on CDROM and sell to other spammers. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 09:35:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23647; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:21:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:21:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34BBCDD8.6ED1 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:26:00 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Re: Spam hints References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M4-V_2.0.On5.dAwkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Geosas wrote: > > It is sometimes possible to get spammers shut down (although it usually > only works with the stupid ones.) Determine the spammer's Internet > Service Provider, then send a complaint to the "abuse" and "postmaster" > address at that service. [snip] > If you have access to UNIX, there is something else you can try. If the > spam message contains a webpage URL, you can use the unix WHOIS command to > determine the actual provider who rents space to that webpage, then > complain to that provider. [snip] Great advice, Bill! I'll archive this one. BTW, you don't need UNIX to get the domain information. You can go to: http://www.checkdomain.com/ and they will give you that information free of charge. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 09:41:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28176; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:26:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:26:54 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34BAC11D.745A keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:25:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Water as Fuel Resent-Message-ID: <"xeaah.0.4u6.LFwkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hi Folks! > >Finally got around to posting the 1935 Garrett patent with full details >describing the demonstration of a 4 cylinder auto, operated solely from >water taken from White Rock Lake in Dallas in 1934. > >There is much additional information in the file along with the 4 >drawings showing its construction. Another file on a commercial unit >that uses ultrasonics and water to provide oxygen also pertains. If you >might be interested in such information, files are available at; > > http://www.keelynet/energy/ultraoxy.htm > http://www.keelynet/energy/garrett.htm > http://www.keelynet/energy/docx.htm It might work better with: http://www.keelynet.com/energy/ultraoxy.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/garrett.htm http://www.keelynet.com/energy/docx.htm Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 09:47:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29510; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:38:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:38:08 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Davis To: William Beaty Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:37:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Spam hints MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"fN-vG.0.-C7.xPwkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 13-Jan-98, William Beaty wrote: >One last thing: never send a message to a suggested "remove" address. >Spammers use this trick to "harvest" known-good email addresses, which >they then put on CDROM and sell to other spammers. Oh boy, I've really been a sap on this one :( -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 09:58:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02991; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:54:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:54:44 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980112201646.0082c310 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:53:46 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP progress Resent-Message-ID: <"LqfKQ3.0.fk.Yfwkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Today I baked the chamber at ~250C under high vacuum for 8 hours with the >filament at 15 watts and the cartridge heater at 15 watts. I then filled >it with 2 torr of H gas and sealed it off leaving the heater powers steady. > Pressure rose to 3 torr over a 10 minute period (due to the gas warming up >fully?) and then stayed constant for over an hour. At that time, I turned >off the cartridge heater and increased the filament power to 30 watts. The >pressure stayed constant at 3 torr for the next hour (then I had to shut >down for the evening). Good work. Looks like the pressure rise was indeed outgassing. BTW, your vacuum pump looks good, too. My "read between the lines" of BLP pages is that they probably use a simple forepump for vacuum. They clearly flow H2 in some of their experiments. Flowing hydrogen at high enough temperature is a good way to reduce contaminants like oxygen that might be on the walls or outgas from the filament or backstream from the pump. Hot H2 can also hydrogenate heavy hydrocarbon contaminants into more volatile, pumpable hydrocarbons. I don't know if these reactions with H2 go at an appreciable rate at a couple of hundred C. However, when the filament is hot, there is some atomic H. Atomic H is much more reactive than H2, both as to its thermodynamic free energy and its reaction rate. One further thought. If atomic hydrogen in BLP's flowing experiments reacts with cell contaminants, this will release unexpected heat that would be accounted as excess energy. However, the total amount of contaminant mass is limited, and such a processs could not explain a large total excess energy. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 10:03:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02251; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:58:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:58:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199801131758.MAA29998 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:46:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Spam hints Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34BBCDD8.6ED1 bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"7Sh61.0.2Z.Vjwkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 13 Jan 98 at 12:26, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: Terry Blanton > > BTW, you don't need UNIX to get the domain information. You can go to: > > http://www.checkdomain.com/ Thanks Bill B. and Terry Blanton for anti-SPAM tips. The web interface to the InterNIC WHOIS database is: http://rs.internic.net/cgi-bin/whois This gives complete info, but is sometimes a bit slow. - Bob F. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 10:14:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05537; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:11:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:11:27 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:11:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199801131811.KAA19343 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Be9 - good news and bad news? Resent-Message-ID: <"L7Bv8.0.JM1.Cvwkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 5:24 PM 1/12/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>Also, few machine shops will want to machine anything with Be in it for you >>due to the extreme health hazard associated with it. And if they do, they >>will charge a premium. >> >>Later, Ross Tessien > > >There is no way I would ever personally attempt to produce massive amounts >of neutrons! One or two now and then from a CF experiment ... well that's >another matter. 8^) I'm not referring to neutron production, machinists haven't a clue about that. Be is a very dangerous carcinigen, so they won't touch it. I own machine shop, so I know! Berrylium Copper is a fairly common material, and machining it is undesireable from a health safety point of view. Grinding is plain stupid. And that only has a tiny percentage of Be in it. Pure Be is something that only a hazardous materials equipped shop will be able to tackle. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 10:39:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10746; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:33:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:33:21 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801130919_MC2-2F1A-1D4C compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:33:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Shanahan vrs reality Resent-Message-ID: <"dQCUq.0.pd2.lDxkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell's claim on water flow: > > The fact that you can hear fluid flowing is not too significant in and > of itself. The pump might well have been working. So what? Is it the > same pump that was used at PowerGen? Are all the conditions the same? > >I wrote that I could hear it *and see it*. That was true at PowerGen and on >the ABC broadcast. The tubes and the pump reservoir are transparent plastic. >You can see the water flowing through the tubes, you can see entrained bubbles >moving rapidly, you can see the water dropping back into the reservoir, and >you can hear it splash. There is NOT WAY the flow rate could be only a >fraction of a milliliter per minute, so Shanahan's hypothesis is wrong. is clearly valid and there is no point in debating it. The flow is about the claimed liter/minute. >There is something strange going on when a scientific debate becomes stalled >over issues like this. The question boils down to this: Can an ordinary person >watch water move through tubes and splash back into a plastic reservoir and >tell whether he is seeing a drop every minute or a liter per minute? Can we >seriously question the ability of a sane human being to make such an >observation?!? It is like questioning my ability to stir 200 ml of water and >measure the temperature with three thermometers: I am not going to get it >wrong by 17 degrees Celsius. Here Jed is right also, the temperature change certaintly was about the claimed 17 degrees. I think it is beyond doubt that a valid measurment of heat output has been made. Now the energy, E, is given by E = Q + U with Q the heat and U the internal energy. So what are the measurments of U? Exactly zero. There are no measurments of U. It is simply assumed, without any crediable basis, that U flowing into the cell is the same as U flowing out of the cell. I do not think that there are any cf advocates that are so ignorant that they do not know that there are two kinds of energy, kinnetic, as represented by Q, and potential, as represented by U and that potential and kinnetic energy may be interchanged. If one parks his car on top of a high hill and then lets it coast down to the bottom and brake to a stop he will find that the brakes have heated up. The engine need not be running so the energy input is zero. The heat observed is not claimed to be "excess heat" and attributed to cf energy production because we know that potential energy is simply being converted into heat. It has been two years since I discussed this effect and gave my simple procedure for detecting it. I gave my comments following the PowerGen 95 CETI and predicted at the time that this would be the end of the large "excess heat" claims in combined flow calorimetry systems and my prediction has basically been validated. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 10:41:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08576; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:34:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Be9 - good news and bad news? Resent-Message-ID: <"D_CBj1.0.t52.3Dxkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:11 AM 1/13/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>At 5:24 PM 1/12/98, Ross Tessien wrote: > >>>Also, few machine shops will want to machine anything with Be in it for you >>>due to the extreme health hazard associated with it. And if they do, they >>>will charge a premium. >>> >>>Later, Ross Tessien >> >> >>There is no way I would ever personally attempt to produce massive amounts >>of neutrons! One or two now and then from a CF experiment ... well that's >>another matter. 8^) > >I'm not referring to neutron production, machinists haven't a clue about >that. Be is a very dangerous carcinigen, so they won't touch it. I own >machine shop, so I know! Berrylium Copper is a fairly common material, and >machining it is undesireable from a health safety point of view. Grinding >is plain stupid. And that only has a tiny percentage of Be in it. Pure Be >is something that only a hazardous materials equipped shop will be able to >tackle. > >Ross Tessien Somehow I am not communicating. I do not intend to personally attempt to generate massive amount of neutrons, therefore I do not intend to do anything with Be. *Neither* generating massive neutrons nor working with Be is something for an amateur. However, if there is no need to generate neutrons there is no need for Be. Generating a small neutron count from a sonoluminecence or D-Pd cold fusion experiment is another matter - not a safety risk. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 10:58:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12436; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:54:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:54:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980113125425.00a6e6b0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:54:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP filament Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mZlFY2.0.E23.tXxkq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/fil3.html shows the filament after Run 3 and yesterday's 8-hour vacuum bakeout with the filament operating. There's an interesting gray deposit around the filament as if it is evaporating significantly. The photo was made with our new Snappy. Thanks, John L. et al for recommending this nice device. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 11:12:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19576; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:02:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:02:52 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:02:46 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980112235232.00a1efe8 cnct.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3sN1s1.0.jn4.Rfxkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:03 AM 1/12/98 -0800, Michael Schaffer wrote: >>Since I've been involved in this discussion, I will offer some of my >>recommendations for an experiment, based on Jim's layout (nice ascii >>drawing, Jim): >> >> ________________ >> | _____ | >> | | ~~~ | | >> | |_~~~_| | >> | Ch1 *(V) Ch2 *(H) >> TR1 -----|--------|- TR4 >> _ __ _____________ ____ | | ____ ___________ ______ >> | )|( COAX LINE )|( )|( COAX LINE )|( | >> | _)|(_____________)|(____ ____)|(___________)|(_ | >> | __|__ TR2 __|__ __|__ TR3 __|__ | >> | --- --- --- --- | >> | . . . . | >> V V >> *-------------------------------------------------------------------* >> | <- 75 ft run magnet wire -> .-----------| >> \ 4066 o / >> / R1 Cmos -> / \ >> \ sw o R2 / >> | | \ >> (~) SS1 ` ----------| >> __|__ 1mhz __|__ >> --- --- >> . . >> >>Eliminate the transformers. Real transformers have dispersion (ie., their >>delay varies with frequency). Instead, use voltage dividers and terminated >>coax lines to 'scope: Terminate each coax at the scope with its >>characteristic impedance, 50 or 75 ohm, as appropriate. This makes the coax >>look like a pure resistance at the other end, no matter what its length. >>Now make a voltage divider. For example, a 7500 ohm resistor in series with >>the signal input end of a 75 ohm coax would give a 101:1 divider. The exact >>value of the division is not important. It should be large enough not to >>load your experimental circuit too much, but not so large that you cannot >>read the divided signals well at the 'scope. Keith Nagel replied: >Excellent suggestion. The bandwidth to the scope will exceed DC-1GHZ easily, >providing the potential to resolve a foot long length of electrical >signal. If your scope can see it, anyway... I think Michael's suggestions are good ones , and I will probably do as he says above. But the best of my two scopes has only 100 mhz bw . However we're dealing with a signal bit duration of .25 usec across the same lightspeed propagation pathlength. I figure if the signal bit is delayed by the amount t(delay) = r/c , then the input signal bit (at the chopper end) should lead the output signal bit (at the generator end) by .25 usec. (75 ft = .25 usec approximately. However if the input and output variations of 1/4 cycle amplitudes are in phase , then we have zero time delay , which would be FTL. If you disagree with this conclusion , please discuss your considerations. > >>The long wire will radiate. Consider making the long wire run a two-wire >>transmission line instead, like in the old radio days, if it is consistnet >>with your experiment. > >Oddly, I found this not to be the case. What does the "this" in your statement above refer to , Keith? Are you saying the wire won't radiate or that a transmission line isn't consistent with the experiment ? Or something else? > Having a good low impedence >ground connection made the resulting RF cavity Q quite high, as >Jim will discover if he rings up the line. Personally, I'd use >aluminum foil. Alot of it. Get the heavy kind, it'll last longer. I'm confused here . What do I do exactly with the aluminum foil ? The single wire length is not , repeat NOT a transmission line as most radio types normally define transmission line. Radio people would be more likely to call the single wire length an ANTENNA. The antenna is _supposed_ to radiate in order to perform as I expect it to. The idea is to try to observe signal modulation delays across a signal pathlength which is a significant fraction of or equivalent to the bit duration time . >>Get the 'scope physically far from the line. Make the two coax lines longer >>than half the length of the long wire, so the scope is at the apex of an >>isoceles triangle far from the wire. 75 ohm coax is cheap, because it's >>used so much for TV cables. You can buy 30 m (100 foot) lengths at eg. >>Radio Shack; might need connector adaptors to go between F and BNC. Run the >>coax on the surface of the ground as much as possible, to minimize >>propagation along the outside of the coax. > >This mode is called a surface wave, and travels at speed C along >the outer shielding of the coax. It will appear as a common mode >signal on the scope...watch for this. It will become more apparent >as you make the legs of the triangle longer and longer. What if we earth ground the outer shield of the coax ? How would we see this surface wave then ? I'm interested in how I can eliminate the effects of radiation from the long wire shortcutting the signal path somehow . I thought grounding the coax outer shield (not actually shown in the diagram) would do this . >>I worry about alternate paths via the 60 Hz power lines. Just because one >>sees no evidence of a 60 Hz ground loop does not prove that one has no RF >>ground loop. I recommend using local power at the generator and another >>local power source at the 'scope. Either a portable gasoline powered >>generator or storage battery and DC-AC invertor would do. >> >I'd leave the scope on the 60hz and battery power the oscillator >and chopper, you'll likely end up building these units anyway. Yes , more than likely . > I assume R1 and R2 are the same value, say 1 ohm? Haven't decided on the values yet. > So long as you're measuring the same thing on either end. Also make > sure the transition occurs in a reasonably short time, say a few > nanoseconds. I'm not sure what the spec is for the 4066 , however I equate in phase amplitude variations of the 1 mhz signal with a input to output zero time delay. Let's clear this point up before I proceed . Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:10:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19261; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:36:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:36:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:35:07 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: freenrg-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Challenge to Time Travellers In-Reply-To: <34BB7621.62B4 keelynet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vO3FW1.0.si4.f8ykq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Jerry wrote: -snip- > Recently, I removed some files purporting to be from some 'time > travellers'. In 'retaliation' they posted a file with > half-truths and repeating their claims. -snip- > > To my view, Time Travel should be something that can be proven, whether > physical or mental. Really quite easily. Who won the 1998 Super-Bowl (Greenbay 13-14 points (per vagas) over Denver) .. should be easy enough? -=se=- :) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:19:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21255; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:50:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:50:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:49:01 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior Reply-To: Martin Sevior To: List Server Vortex Cc: gwatson microtronics.com.au Subject: Re: UpDate 13th Jan, 1998 In-Reply-To: <34BB0238.B660C569 microtronics.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XZ6tB1.0.0C5.lLykq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Greg Watson wrote: > > Anyone interested in manufacturing? > If you can ship me a working device, I will arrange to have the workshops at the University of Melbourne to replicate the device and ship at cost + 40%. Interested? Cheers! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:29:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25584; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:12:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:12:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:08:19 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Wharton versus thermodynamics Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801131511_MC2-2F28-1AE1 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"IlUNh.0.gF6.8hykq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Larry Wharton writes: Here Jed is right also, the temperature change certainly was about the claimed 17 degrees. I think it is beyond doubt that a valid measurment of heat output has been made. Now the energy, E, is given by E = Q + U with Q the heat and U the internal energy. So what are the measurments of U? Exactly zero. There are no measurments of U. That is incorrect. All energy inputs were measured at two points: the single AC connection to the wall which powered all components, and at the individual components. Total input to the system never exceeded 50 watts. Output ranged from 300 to 1200 watts. Components were: 1. Pump, rated 35 watts maximum, as I recall 2. Aux heaters to pre-heat electrolyte, up to 50 watts, but they were turned off during runs 3. Meters and thermocouples, less than 1 watt 4. Electrolysis, less than 2 watts, with a Radio Shack power supply rated at 5 watts The cell and all components were much warmer than the surroundings, so no part of it could have been acting as a heat pump heat sink. That would violate the Second Law. Therefore, all inputs must originate in the form of A/C electricity. It is simply assumed, without any crediable basis, that U flowing into the cell is the same as U flowing out of the cell. An AC ammeter and individual power meters on every component is as credible as you can get! Electricity is the cleanest, easiest form of energy to account for. I do not think that there are any cf advocates that are so ignorant that they do not know that there are two kinds of energy, kinnetic [sic], as represented by Q, and potential, as represented by U and that potential and kinnetic energy may be interchanged. Hey, we may be so ignorant and we probably could not spell "kinetic" on our own, but at least we know where the spell-check button is. All energy inputs to the system, potential and kinetic, originate as electricity. There is never any significant stored chemical energy anywhere in the system. There is some negative potential chemical energy when the cell is first fabricated. The cell absorbs energy during initial loading of the beads to form a tiny amount of nickel hydride. A fraction of that energy might be recovered after electrolysis terminates, when some of the gas comes out of the nickel, but with less than a gram of nickel we are talking about minute amounts of energy. Even if the pump could somehow generate chemical fuel which it injects into the cell (Wharton's hypothesis), it could not continuously put 10 or 100 times more energy into the fuel than it draws as electricity. It could not do this for weeks, adding up to gigajoules of energy. That would be a gross violation of the First Law. If one parks his car on top of a high hill and then lets it coast down to the bottom and brake to a stop he will find that the brakes have heated up. The engine need not be running so the energy input is zero. The heat observed is not claimed to be "excess heat" and attributed to cf energy production because we know that potential energy is simply being converted into heat. I repeat, there are no significant sources of potential energy in the cell, either theoretical or actually observed. It ran for weeks before the thin film dissolved. Later models have run much longer. It has been two years since I discussed this effect and gave my simple procedure for detecting it. I gave my comments following the PowerGen 95 CETI and predicted at the time that this would be the end of the large "excess heat" claims in combined flow calorimetry systems and my prediction has basically been validated. Nothing has been validated because CETI has not retracted their claims, including their later nuclear transmutation claims; I have not retracted my observations; and CETI is now manufacturing more effective long-lived cells that produce better power density. Unfortunately, they keep these secret. This claim cannot be validated without first overthrowing the most fundamental, holiest of holy laws of physics. Wharton's hypothesis is far more radical than any nuclear hypothesis offered to explain CF. If Wharton could prove this to the satisfaction of the scientific community he would become the most famous physicist in the world. Unfortunately, even if he does prove that CF cells violate thermodynamics, he still has not explained CF because it also produces transmutations, radioactive isotopes, unnatural isotopic distribution, x-rays, and other nuclear effects. Cold fusion may not be fusion. It may be mostly fission, or ZPE or some totally unknown source of energy. I have no idea what it is or where to look for the answer, but the very last explanation I would consider is Wharton's: a gross violation of thermodynamics. He does not even try to grapple with the nuclear effects, which the ZPE and shrinking hydrogen advocates are willing to take a crack at. I have no idea whether Mills' explanation for isotope shifts and x-rays is correct but at least the man is trying to account for the totality of the evidence. Wharton is pretending that most evidence does not exist! He says "I think it is beyond doubt that a valid measurement of heat output has been made." It is equally beyond doubt that some cathodes produce x-rays, and that Tom Claytor and Fritz Will produced tritium. Helium and some host metal transmutations are, by their nature, more difficult to establish with confidence, so a theorist might be forgiven for ignoring these. But a person who believes the calorimetry while rejecting Claytor's tritium is just as irrational as a person who throws out all evidence. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:31:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23538; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:04:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:04:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior To: William Beaty Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spam hints In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kNbRV.0.il5.MZykq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Bill for some excellent SPAM hints. > > Do whatever is necessary to obtain the whole message header. In PINE, I > save it to a new folder, then exit pine and print that folder. In other > mail programs there might be a "full headers" menu selection. I run pine on Unix. In my version this is not neccessary. Just press "h" for header while in the mailer. Cheers Martin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:35:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12818; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:28:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:28:48 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:28:43 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: Martin Sevior cc: List Server Vortex , gwatson@microtronics.com.au Subject: Re: UpDate 13th Jan, 1998 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_0fWL2.0.B83.-vykq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Martin Sevior wrote: > > > On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Greg Watson wrote: > > > > > Anyone interested in manufacturing? > > > > If you can ship me a working device, I will arrange to have the workshops > at the University of Melbourne to replicate the device and ship at cost + > 40%. > > Interested? > > Cheers! > > Martin Sevior > > > Martin, THAT may be the Best Idea of ALL that I've heard. I know it is a lot harder to 'sue a government' or a UNIVERSITY! especially, if it is on the cutting edges of technology research!! +40% (humm$) whatever, that should let it fly through administration as a fund raiser for U of M too! Everybody should be happy with 'that research'. Best to you & yours -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:58:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19253; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:51:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:51:45 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "Puthoff" , "Scott Little" Subject: Hydrino Energy Conjecture Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:53:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2022$370b3460$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"n_sCi2.0.Ci4.QFzkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Going by the anomalous pressure buildup (1.0 Torr)that Scott measured on the BLP cell replication-protocol: 5E18 H2 molecules in the cell and 2.5E18 "Anomalous" molecules (LLs), if 1% of these formed a hydrino (2.81E-15 meter radius)releasing 0.255 Mev each second, there could be something like: 0.01*2.5E18*2.55E5*1.6E-19 = 1.0 Kilowatts of power output from the cell. Not Bad for about 100 watts TOTAL energy input. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 12:58:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20197; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:53:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:53:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP filament Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:24:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2061$335ea880$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"DW1lF3.0.Bx4.zGzkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 12:01 PM Subject: BLP filament >Gnorts, > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/fil3.html > >shows the filament after Run 3 and yesterday's 8-hour vacuum bakeout with >the filament operating. There's an interesting gray deposit around the >filament as if it is evaporating significantly. Great Picture, Scott. You might as well get used to seeing broken tungsten after a run. They get very brittle and break at the slightest touch. The deposit is what you should expect from the "water cycle":W + 1.5 O2 = WO3 (volatile at 800 K or more)deposits on the insulator, Then 3 H2 + WO3 = 3 H2O + W (on the insulator) :-) note how clean the tungsten is. :-) Regards, Frederick > >The photo was made with our new Snappy. Thanks, John L. et al for >recommending this nice device. > Fantastic! > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 13:00:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19512; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:52:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "Puthoff" , "Scott Little" Subject: BLP, Potassium Catalysis Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd202b$6e954200$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pPloO1.0.xl4.sFzkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The alkali metals will ionize upon contact with a Hot Tungsten Filament. This is well known and exploited for lowering the space charge in Thermionic Converters used in the Space Program. Assuming generation of Light Lepton Pairs upon contact of H2 with the Hot Filament(possibly aided with the lower work function of the Potassium-Tungsten surface): K+ + H2 <----> KH + H+, Then LL- + H+ = Hydrino + energy (about 2.55E5 ev if the "orbit" of the LL- is at 2.81E-15 meters) or 2.81 Fermi, the "field boundary" of the Proton (H+). The LL+ Might couple at 5.29E-11 meters radius with the electron forming an "Electrino" and releasing about 1.86 kev also. Regards, Frederick a From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 13:46:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28177; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:35:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:35:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980113153535.00a7055c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:35:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: what's happening to my Cu? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IE17k3.0.Bu6.Vuzkq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Changing the filament in our BLP apparatus involves uncrimping the heavy Cu lead wires and recrimping them onto the new filament. This time, the bent piece broke off...no big deal, I'd cycled it a few times. So I bent over the end of the remaining Cu lead...a section that had never been bent before. It broke incredibly easily...before I had even begun to form a tight fold. The metal was no stronger than a rotten twig of the same size. The Cu metal has been severely affected by the "treatment" given it in the BLP apparatus. I continued to break off pieces easily until I got well away from the filament area and then the Cu became normal again. So it's a heat-induced phenomena apparently. hydrogen embrittlement? some kind of vacuum + heat problem with Cu? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 14:46:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07896; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:39:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:39:49 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:40:28 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd2074$3f1ef310$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0077_01BD204A.5648EB10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"u4J9H3.0.vw1.oq-kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BD204A.5648EB10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, I have seen a similar copper phenomena when wires in a core memory were overheated. The inside of the wires did not look oxidized but they became very weak, brittle, and had a distinct = crystalline appearance.=20 Perhaps only heat is required to damage copper in this manner. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BD204A.5648EB10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scott, 
I have seen a=20 similar copper phenomena  when wires in a core
memory were overheated. The inside of = the wires=20 did not look 
oxidized but they became very weak, = brittle, and=20 had a distinct crystalline appearance.
Perhaps only heat is required to = damage=20 copper in this manner.
 
George = Holz    george@varisys.com
Varitronics = Systems
 
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BD204A.5648EB10-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 15:36:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17200; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:25:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:25:29 -0800 Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:25:20 -0800 (PST) From: Barry Merriman Message-Id: <199801132325.PAA18753 joshua.math.ucla.edu> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: UpDate 13th Jan, 1998 Resent-Message-ID: <"e2Ulr3.0.gC4.eV_kq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Anyone interested in manufacturing? I suggest to just ship the SMOTs to the people on your list---if they work even remotely as claimed, even if by mundane priciples, I'm sure that will generate plenty of interest in manufacturing. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 17:50:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30415; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:45:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:45:49 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980113153535.00a7055c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:46:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? Resent-Message-ID: <"SpoAh.0._Q7.BZ1lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Changing the filament in our BLP apparatus involves uncrimping the heavy Cu >lead wires and recrimping them onto the new filament. > >This time, the bent piece broke off...no big deal, I'd cycled it a few times. > >So I bent over the end of the remaining Cu lead...a section that had never >been bent before. > >It broke incredibly easily...before I had even begun to form a tight fold. >The metal was no stronger than a rotten twig of the same size. The Cu >metal has been severely affected by the "treatment" given it in the BLP >apparatus. I continued to break off pieces easily until I got well away >from the filament area and then the Cu became normal again. So it's a >heat-induced phenomena apparently. > >hydrogen embrittlement? > >some kind of vacuum + heat problem with Cu? Copper anneals at high enough temperature; it comes out really soft weak and easy to bend. I don't knjow its anneal temperature, but it is fairly high (guess greater than 500 C). Therefore, I don't think much of your copper could have annealed. Copper can be annealed and its surface simultaneously cleaned of oxide residue in a hydrogen-atmosphere furnace. Unfortunately, I don't remember the temperature. I am thinking that this would mean that H2 plus heat alone ought not embrittle the Cu. I also think that Cu does not readily take up hydrogen. My guess right now, and I repeat that it is only a guess, is that _atomic_ hydrogen might be reactive enough to enter Cu and that maybe CuHx is brittle. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 18:26:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20363; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:05:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:05:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Fw: what's happening to my Cu? Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:00:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2090$2d771400$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"F3jcU3.0.2-4.cr1lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: George Holz To: vortex-L Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:50 PM Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? Scott, I have seen a similar copper phenomena when wires in a core memory were overheated. The inside of the wires did not look oxidized but they became very weak, brittle, and had a distinct crystalline appearance. Perhaps only heat is required to damage copper in this manner. Sounds like "Hydrogen Embrittlement", George. If you don't use OFHC {Oxygen Free High Conductivity) copper this happens a lot. Regards, Frederick George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 18:27:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20215; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:04:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:04:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980113214359.00a2b5c8 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:44:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ut1PA2.0.lx4.qq1lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:02 AM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: > I think Michael's suggestions are good ones , and I will probably > do as he says above. > > But the best of my two scopes has only 100 mhz bw . However we're > dealing with a signal bit duration of .25 usec across the same > lightspeed propagation pathlength. > > I figure if the signal bit is delayed by the amount t(delay) = r/c , > then the input signal bit (at the chopper end) should lead the output > signal bit (at the generator end) by .25 usec. (75 ft = .25 usec > approximately. > > However if the input and output variations of 1/4 cycle amplitudes are > in phase , then we have zero time delay , which would be FTL. > > If you disagree with this conclusion , please discuss your > considerations. Yes, how are you getting 250 nanoseconds for a 75 foot run of wire? Try Length_of_wire/Speed_of_light_in_vacuum. A good rule of thumb here, 1 nanosecond per foot. This is suprisingly accurate. I would expect the delay to be just that, 75 ns. Another rule of thumb, experiment should have an order of magnitude more resolution than the thing you're measuring. So you need to be able to see down to 5ns per division on the scope. 10 if you're going to just eyeball things. Your 100MHz unit might be game... > >> >>>The long wire will radiate. Consider making the long wire run a two-wire >>>transmission line instead, like in the old radio days, if it is consistnet >>>with your experiment. >> > >>Oddly, I found this not to be the case. > > What does the "this" in your statement above refer to , Keith? > > Are you saying the wire won't radiate or that a transmission line isn't > consistent with the experiment ? Or something else? > I'm saying that the transmission line composed of the single wire and ground plane will make a suprisingly poor radiator. You would think that with the characteristic impedence of this structure being close to the free space impedence that the energy would just piss off of the thing; but such is not the case. Well, anyway, it surprised me. The two wire unit will be an even poorer radiator, again I would think this is just what you're after, to resonate the line. Why is radiation important? > >> Having a good low impedence >>ground connection made the resulting RF cavity Q quite high, as >>Jim will discover if he rings up the line. Personally, I'd use >>aluminum foil. Alot of it. Get the heavy kind, it'll last longer. > > I'm confused here . What do I do exactly with the aluminum foil ? That's what you use to make a good ground plane. Driving stakes in the ground, etc, is not a good idea. The foil can be used to provide a common ground plane for all points in the circuit. > > The single wire length is not , repeat NOT a transmission line as most > radio types normally define transmission line. Radio people would be > more likely to call the single wire length an ANTENNA. The antenna is > _supposed_ to radiate in order to perform as I expect it to. Er, it is both. You will find it's characteristic impedence to be about 400 ohms. > > The idea is to try to observe signal modulation delays across a signal > pathlength which is a significant fraction of or equivalent to the bit > duration time . > > >>>Get the 'scope physically far from the line. Make the two coax lines longer >>>than half the length of the long wire, so the scope is at the apex of an >>>isoceles triangle far from the wire. 75 ohm coax is cheap, because it's >>>used so much for TV cables. You can buy 30 m (100 foot) lengths at eg. >>>Radio Shack; might need connector adaptors to go between F and BNC. Run the >>>coax on the surface of the ground as much as possible, to minimize >>>propagation along the outside of the coax. >> > >>This mode is called a surface wave, and travels at speed C along >>the outer shielding of the coax. It will appear as a common mode >>signal on the scope...watch for this. It will become more apparent >>as you make the legs of the triangle longer and longer. > > What if we earth ground the outer shield of the coax ? How would we > see this surface wave then ? > > I'm interested in how I can eliminate the effects of radiation from the > long wire shortcutting the signal path somehow . I thought grounding > the coax outer shield (not actually shown in the diagram) would do > this . Sort of. You see, ordinary coax uses braided outer conductor. This allows leakage of the surface wave signal into the inner conductor. You'll see this as a precursor signal leading the 70%c signal travelling inside the coax. This signal will be quite small. I used solid outer conductor for these types of experiments, with air core centers. Then the leading edge signal was not affected. Besides, ground to what? The scope? The dirt? ahhh, the foil :^) > >> I assume R1 and R2 are the same value, say 1 ohm? > > Haven't decided on the values yet. Whatever they are, make them equal. I'd give you more advice here but it sounds like you should put the experiment together as is, and actually start playing with it. Alot more of what I and MJS are saying will make sense. By the way, the choice of these resistors will in part determine the resonant mode of the cavity. > > > So long as you're measuring the same thing on either end. Also make > > sure the transition occurs in a reasonably short time, say a few > > nanoseconds. > > I'm not sure what the spec is for the 4066 , however I equate in phase > amplitude variations of the 1 mhz signal with a input to output zero time > delay. Let's clear this point up before I proceed . > > Jim O. Now I'm confused Jim, please elaborate on this last point. KPN PS: A while back you posted on an experiment involving a chopped laser and a pair of pockells cells. What became of this? Was anything published? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 18:54:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11371; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:38:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:38:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980113213256.006c9b30 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:32:56 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? Cc: Scott Little In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980113153535.00a7055c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JHJWK.0.an2.UK2lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:35 PM 1/13/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Changing the filament in our BLP apparatus involves uncrimping the heavy Cu >lead wires and recrimping them onto the new filament. > >This time, the bent piece broke off...no big deal, I'd cycled it a few times. > >So I bent over the end of the remaining Cu lead...a section that had never >been bent before. > >It broke incredibly easily...before I had even begun to form a tight fold. >The metal was no stronger than a rotten twig of the same size. The Cu >metal has been severely affected by the "treatment" given it in the BLP >apparatus. I continued to break off pieces easily until I got well away >from the filament area and then the Cu became normal again. So it's a >heat-induced phenomena apparently. > >hydrogen embrittlement? > >some kind of vacuum + heat problem with Cu? Maybe not. Here is my hypothesis, based upon conventional corrosion engineering: Hydrogen disease of copper. The changes may be a metachronous reaction of hydrogen with dissolved oxygen. Phase I: Copper oxidizes in air to form a films of Cu2O, which is overlaid by a superficial CuO film for temps higher than 260C. Phase II: This tendency for copper to dissolve oxygen this way leads to rupture of metal - along grain boundaries - after subsequent heating in hydrogen through the formation of steam. The damage by hydrogen happens at temps as low as 400C. Summary: This is called "hydrogen disease" of copper. Cast tough-pitch copper is very sensitive. Oxygen-free coppers are not. There are alloys that resist it, and heat treatments if in appropriate conditions may generate the 111 orientation to decrease the oxidation rate which helps. Check H. Uhlig "Corrosion and Corrosion Control", for example. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 19:44:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06037; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:39:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:39:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Scott Little" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: More Rugged Filament Materials Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:34:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd209d$53787740$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ESEE9.0.BU1.JD3lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: Frederick J. Sparber Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 2:43 PM Subject: Re: More Rugged Filament Materials >At 13:49 1/13/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks...W is an awfully unductile metal, isn't it. Check out my latest >post on Vortex about the Cu deterioration....?> No surprises there, Scott. Copper is prone to hydrogen embrittlement. It actually combines with oxygen tied up in the copper as CuOx and forms interstitial water. It can make the copper as brittle as tungsten. :-) Not much one can do other than using OFHC (Oxygen Free High Conductivity) copper. I was using molten copper for copper ion implantation in materials (up to 60 kev) in the early 60s. The copper in the electron-bombardment heated tantalum crucibles out-gassed something fierce even though it was supposed to be 4-nines pure. :-) Bare copper wires used in the vacuum system for hook-up occasionally gave the same problems that you are alluding to. You can de-oxidize it by "poling" the molten metal with Spruce. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 19:57:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA31778; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:47:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:47:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:47:06 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: Martin Sevior cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spam hints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3DTme1.0.Mm7.NL3lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Martin Sevior wrote: > I run pine on Unix. In my version this is not neccessary. Just press "h" > for header while in the mailer. I was going to say "yeah, that lets you SEE the headers, but when you forward the message, it still strips the headers." But then I tried forwarding a message while in "H" mode and... it didn't strip headers! Wow, pine feature I didn't know! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 20:10:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02719; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:03:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:03:44 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <9a74f8e3.34bc38b3 aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:01:53 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"QMS_8.0.Pg.Va3lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-13 16:42:44 EST, you write: > some kind of vacuum + heat problem with Cu? Scott, Maybe use stainless steel wire to support the filiment? Or use the original supports from the auto lamp? With due care I think if the wires are cut out of the lamp close to the glass post these would make a dandy support. I have done this to make ignitors for model rockets. Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 20:15:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10890; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:04:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:04:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:02:14 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Shanahan: TOUCHE! hot H2 bubble in CETI cell?: Wharton; Rothwell; Murray References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MY8fA1.0.4g2.ta3lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Subject: Re: CETI cells Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:54 -0400 (EDT) From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov To: rmforall earthlink.net Jed continues his diatribe with: > > Kirk Shanahan practices more fancy two-step evasions, and he deliberately > twists my words. I promise I will not respond again, but I cannot let this > pass. Really and truly? You mean I can say _whatever_ I want now and you won't respond? (A likely story...) > He writes: > > The fact that you can hear fluid flowing is not too significant in and of itself. The pump might well have been working. So what? Is it the same pump that was used at PowerGen? Are all the conditions the same? > > I wrote that I could hear it *and see it*. That was true at PowerGen and on > the ABC broadcast. The tubes and the pump reservoir are transparent plastic. > You can see the water flowing through the tubes, you can see entrained bubbles> moving rapidly, you can see the water dropping back into the reservoir, and > you can hear it splash. There is NOT WAY the flow rate could be only a > fraction of a milliliter per minute, so Shanahan's hypothesis is wrong. > Which hypothesis is that Jed, the one I invented or the one you claim I invented? The basic problem is that you never read my hypotheses without interjecting your own variants and then proving how your variants are wrong. _Since I have a separate request_, I will explain my hypothesis again here. You have my permission to break your word above and respond, if you keep it focused to how my proposal here is shown to be wrong by the available data. (I keep thinking about the camel's nose thing...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The "Shanahan" explanation of the PPC -------------------------------------- The best way to start is to suspend belief in CF for a few minutes. I know it's hard, but try. Next, we step back and look at a PPC from a chemical engineer's point of view. The CE's view ------------- We see a pump circulating a liquid through some tubing into a 'cell' and back out into the pump's reservoir. Looking more closely at the 'cell' we see a bed of packed beads (look metallic don't they) blocking the flow path of the liquid. Hmmm...looks exactly like a filter used to remove unwanted particulates! Sure enough, when we watch the cell run, we see metal flakes in the liquid (wonder where they came from?) being trapped on the filter. That probably means a limited filter life due to blinding... (What's 'blinding'? It is the phenomenon where the holes in the filter that the liquid flows through are slowly blocked by the filtered particles. Eventually all flow is stopped, although usually filters are changed long before that. You all may want to stop a minute and go back to the PowerGen demo descriptions and discussions and note what happened to the control cell.) Now some guy steps up and turns on a power supply connected to wires going into the cell. Suddenly, bubbles start forming and leaving the cell. Ok, so the key point now is that we have a two-phase system! (What does that mean? In a two-phase gas/liquid system, the gas and liquid flow rates are totally independent. In the PPC the pump and flow resistances control the liquid flow rate, the power supply, via electrolysis rate, and flow resistances control the gas flow. If electrolysis continues and the pump is turned off, you would still have attempts to get gas flow. It might be possible that without the help of the fluid flow, the gas would simply build up right at the cell, push all electrolyte out, and shut down the electrolysis. Otherwise the gas would still make it over to the vent point in the reservoir and exit the system.) We note the gas flow is discontinuous, meaning we see discrete bubbles. Looking closer to see where the bubbles come from, we note that the 'cell' is in fact a special electrolysis cell, and that H2 is produced at the cathode (metallic beads) and O2 at the anode. The O2 is produced near the top of the beads, and would seem to exit the cell quickly that way. The H2 however, seems to be produced deep in the bead bed, although now we notice the anode grid is separated from the cathode beads by other, plastic beads. The H2 is being formed at the metallic beads. We also note that there appear to be two protrusions into the cell, one on each side of the bead and we wonder what effect they might have on the system. We trace the wires back from something inserted into the protrusions and find they are thermocouple wells (well..maybe thermistor or Pt resistance thermometers or some such). We watch the system run awhile, and notice that the operator suddenly gets excited over one of his output traces. We ask about it and he says "It's EXCESS HEAT!" We are a little suspicious of that, so we go look closely at the cell and see...The TRUE Shanahan hypothesis The Shanahan Hypothesis ----------------------- I propose what we would see is that the central core of the bead bed is filled with trapped bubbles (which probably coalesce into one big one). I expect they grew in place from the electrolysis and were just never dislodged. The fluid flow battles with the bubbles for flow paths, and in order to get a positive delta T (with no CF now), would have to be forced towards the cylinder walls. The bubble of hydrogen is being consumed at the Pt anode by O2, and produces a hot spot at the exit thermocouple well. It is even possible that the H2 bubble extends up to and covers the well, especially if it is positioned close to the Pt grid. What does the available data say? --------------------------------- - Thin beds produce less heat than thick. Because it is harder to trap bubbles in it. Once the thick bed gets occluded the flow redirects around the primary bubble. This is called 'channeling' in the CE literature. There probably isn't enough bed depth to produce a solidly trapped central core bubble in thin cells. - Flow is harder to get through thick beds. Static mixers used by CETI prior to the cell in early designs were removed because they restricted flow too much. Wonder why? - 'Failed' replication attempts suggest that perhaps the anode is important. Merriman and Little couldn't reproduce the PPC. But Scott told me he normally used only a Pt ring anode because he had problems with the flow (due to bubbles) when using a grid like Merriman did. Unfortunately the structural details of relevance (well-grid distance, grid spacing, wall-beads packing, other possible flow restrictions) are missing from all reports, primarily I suppose because every one was trying to do cold fusion, and not trap bubbles. I also note that Schaffer said on Vortex that his well was clearly placed at a point where mixing had occurred. (Tsk, tsk Mike, how could you see excess heat _that_ way?) So, the scientific core of my hypothesis is that the delta T measured in PPCs can easily NOT be the delta T that should be used in the power output calculation, for two reasons. The primary one is that the well can be located at (or even form) a hot spot. A second (and quite possibly not important) one is that the flow past the well is two-phase and I don't know what the true heat capacity of the mixed fluid is. I do know most people use the one for the liquid alone, which is an implicit assumption, just like assuming the measured delta T represents the fluid's delta T. A precise proposal such as this is easily testable, and I pointed this out back in either late '95 or early '96. Use redundant temperature measurements that are expected to show a known difference. Scott Little does this in his calorimeter. Anyone else could do it by placing a second thermometer elsewhere in the system and calibrating it along with the first to account for heat losses. The only data that was inconsistent with this picture that I can recall is Jed Rothwell's temperature measurements on the reservoir temperatures. I don't recall the details but I know that his reports would discredit my hypothesis. However, you all have seen his responses to me now. He did the same back then. I simply ask someone else to replicate the experimental results. If someone can show my ideas are not correct, I certainly will back down, but I do require quality data and reporting to make me do so. As should be, there are other things one can try to test my hypothesis. Turn the cell so that the flow is not vertical. Perhaps the buoyant forces of the bubbles will cause the central core I postulate to never form. In that case a cell showing excess would stop, but would resume when placed back in the vertical. A caution is that a preexisting bubble core might not be dislodged. I think you would need to start clean. However, righting a cell should allow a new bubble to grow in. You could also xray the cell before, during, and after. Density differences between air-only, liquid-only, normal electrolysis conditions, and a central core should show up. You might have to use densitometry though. This might be particularly interesting with the newer (post-96) designs. They all seem to have large cavities between beds, perfect for bubble trapping. BTW, the 'heat-after-death' (to borrow the F&P term) shown in the recent patents is probably just slow consumption of the gas bubbles, which are nothing but 'reservoirs' of fuel. That brings up another possible test. When the electrolysis is turned off in a 'h-a-d' cell, the burning can continue due to dissolved O2 from the air. Flush the system with inert gas and deareate the electrolyte, and as soon as the O2 from the electrolysis is consumed, the 'h-a-d' should stop. Resupplying O2 (from air) should restart it if you don't blow all the H2 out. Someone who has a non-functioning PPC could try to increase the 'bubble retention' power of it. One possible way would be to use two Pt grids rotated with respect to each other stacked in a sandwich as the anode. That should help trap bubbles. However, a 'failure' to detect excess heat might not be conclusive. END of the Shanahan Explanation ------------------------------------------------------------------- Resume self-imposed Rothwell ban on continued commentary...(please!) > There is something strange going on when a scientific debate becomes stalled > over issues like this. The question boils down to this: Can an ordinary person> watch water move through tubes and splash back into a plastic reservoir and > tellwhether he i s seeing a drop every minute or a liter per minute? Can we > seriously question the ability of a sane human being to make such an >observation?!? It is > like questioning my ability to stir 200 ml of water and measure the >temperature > with three thermometers: I am not going to get it wrong by 17 degrees Celsius.> It is like debating whether an observer 20 meters from the road on a sunny day> can tell whether a car is moving at ~5 mph or ~100 miles per hour. > If you had read and bothered to understand what I was saying back then Jed, you would have noticed a) I never completely disavowed the flow, I granted that your ears worked for that. I simply suggested you couldn't aurally distinguish .1 cc/min and 250 cc/min. (Flame! I feel a flame!) Note also that there _is_ some expected heating of the electrolyte, exactly unity or slightly less of the input power. But you also would have noticed that b) I said the liquid flow rate was irrelevant because the delta T measured didn't apply to the fluid. So, go prove me wrong someone... > For Shanahan's hypothesis to be true, George Miley, Dennis Cravens, Akira > Kawasaki, Michael Guillen, me and many other observers who saw the water > flowing rapidly would have to be blind, deaf, delusional, drunk, or the > boldest liars in history. No comment... > CETI would have had to arrange a fantastic optical > and audio illusion to fool Guillen and millions of television viewers. > (Guillen is a PhD physicist who understands the basis of the claims.) Have the CETI claims ever include flow restrictions and hot spots? > I expect > Shanahan sincerely believes that we could be fooled I'm not trying to 'fool' anyone. I am trying to behave as a scientist by proposing hypothesis that explain the data and requesting counters to what I say. Your commentaries never address my comments directly. You always bring up ancillary issues and misdirect the follow-up. (ah, ah, ah, remember your promise! ;-) ) > and it is possible to make > one drop look like one liter, but I find that hypothesis impossibly > far-fetched, and utterly divorced from everyday reality and common sense. Note all of above. Is the attempt to distort what I propose to your strawman and then killing it and claiming you have addressed the issues a demonstration of 'feet-on-the-ground' reality and everyday common sense? > I cannot fathom Shanahan's thought processes. Try opening your mind to the 'mundane' for a bit. > I cannot imagine how any person > with scientific training or experience in the real world could take that idea > seriously and repeatedly promote it on Internet. We don't. Why don't you stop promoting it? > Frankly, the people who > believe in UFO abductions pay more attention to common sense observations than> extremist "skeptics" like Shanahan. > Ah! The TRUTH comes out! The PPC is from a UFO! > Period, full stop. Thank God! > > - Jed > Kirk Shanahan {{my opinions...noone else's}} Oh yeah! Resume belief in CF...if you like. P.S. I was almost ready to bow out of this debate, because Mr. Rothwell is a Master of Misdirection and has never apparently been wrong in his life. As such his mind is untouchable by the likes of me. His promise not to respond really caused the horns and tail to pop out though... I will actually not respond any further to Mr. Rothwell. If there is something one of you want to ask me about, you have my email...I always reserve the right to refuse service. Subject: Re: Shanahan vrs reality Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:33:21 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:33:00 -0500 From: Larry Wharton Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Jed Rothwell's claim on water flow: > > The fact that you can hear fluid flowing is not too significant in and of itself. The pump might well have been working. So what? Is it the same pump that was used at PowerGen? Are all the conditions the same? > >I wrote that I could hear it *and see it*. That was true at PowerGen and on >the ABC broadcast. The tubes and the pump reservoir are transparent plastic. >You can see the water flowing through the tubes, you can see entrained bubbles >moving rapidly, you can see the water dropping back into the reservoir, and >you can hear it splash. There is NOT WAY the flow rate could be only a >fraction of a milliliter per minute, so Shanahan's hypothesis is wrong. is clearly valid and there is no point in debating it. The flow is about the claimed liter/minute. >There is something strange going on when a scientific debate becomes stalled >over issues like this. The question boils down to this: Can an ordinary person >watch water move through tubes and splash back into a plastic reservoir and >tell whether he is seeing a drop every minute or a liter per minute? Can we >seriously question the ability of a sane human being to make such an >observation?!? It is like questioning my ability to stir 200 ml of water and >measure the temperature with three thermometers: I am not going to get it >wrong by 17 degrees Celsius. Here Jed is right also, the temperature change certaintly was about the claimed 17 degrees. I think it is beyond doubt that a valid measurment of heat output has been made. Now the energy, E, is given by E = Q + U with Q the heat and U the internal energy. So what are the measurments of U? Exactly zero. There are no measurments of U. It is simply assumed, without any crediable basis, that U flowing into the cell is the same as U flowing out of the cell. I do not think that there are any cf advocates that are so ignorant that they do not know that there are two kinds of energy, kinnetic, as represented by Q, and potential, as represented by U and that potential and kinnetic energy may be interchanged. If one parks his car on top of a high hill and then lets it coast down to the bottom and brake to a stop he will find that the brakes have heated up. The engine need not be running so the energy input is zero. The heat observed is not claimed to be "excess heat" and attributed to cf energy production because we know that potential energy is simply being converted into heat. It has been two years since I discussed this effect and gave my simple procedure for detecting it. I gave my comments following the PowerGen 95 CETI and predicted at the time that this would be the end of the large "excess heat" claims in combined flow calorimetry systems and my prediction has basically been validated. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov Subject: Wharton versus thermodynamics Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:12:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:08:19 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex Larry Wharton writes: Here Jed is right also, the temperature change certainly was about the claimed 17 degrees. I think it is beyond doubt that a valid measurment of heat output has been made. Now the energy, E, is given by E = Q + U with Q the heat and U the internal energy. So what are the measurments of U? Exactly zero. There are no measurments of U. That is incorrect. All energy inputs were measured at two points: the single AC connection to the wall which powered all components, and at the individual components. Total input to the system never exceeded 50 watts. Output ranged from 300 to 1200 watts. Components were: 1. Pump, rated 35 watts maximum, as I recall 2. Aux heaters to pre-heat electrolyte, up to 50 watts, but they were turned off during runs 3. Meters and thermocouples, less than 1 watt 4. Electrolysis, less than 2 watts, with a Radio Shack power supply rated at 5 watts The cell and all components were much warmer than the surroundings, so no part of it could have been acting as a heat pump heat sink. That would violate the Second Law. Therefore, all inputs must originate in the form of A/C electricity. It is simply assumed, without any crediable basis, that U flowing into the cell is the same as U flowing out of the cell. An AC ammeter and individual power meters on every component is as credible as you can get! Electricity is the cleanest, easiest form of energy to account for. I do not think that there are any cf advocates that are so ignorant that they do not know that there are two kinds of energy, kinnetic [sic], as represented by Q, and potential, as represented by U and that potential and kinnetic energy may be interchanged. Hey, we may be so ignorant and we probably could not spell "kinetic" on our own, but at least we know where the spell-check button is. All energy inputs to the system, potential and kinetic, originate as electricity. There is never any significant stored chemical energy anywhere in the system. There is some negative potential chemical energy when the cell is The cell absorbs energy during initial loading of the beads to form a tiny amount of nickel hydride. A fraction of that energy might be recovered after electrolysis terminates, when some of the gas comes out of the nickel, but with less than a gram of nickel we are talking about minute amounts of energy. Even if the pump could somehow generate chemical fuel which it injects into the cell (Wharton's hypothesis), it could not continuously put 10 or 100 times more energy into the fuel than it draws as electricity. It could not do this for weeks, adding up to gigajoules of energy. That would be a gross violation of the First Law. If one parks his car on top of a high hill and then lets it coast down to the bottom and brake to a stop he will find that the brakes have heated up. The engine need not be running so the energy input is zero. The heat observed is not claimed to be "excess heat" and attributed to cf energy production because we know that potential energy is simply being converted into heat. I repeat, there are no significant sources of potential energy in the cell, either theoretical or actually observed. It ran for weeks before the thin film dissolved. Later models have run much longer. It has been two years since I discussed this effect and gave my simple procedure for detecting it. I gave my comments following the PowerGen 95 CETI and predicted at the time that this would be the end of the large "excess heat" claims in combined flow calorimetry systems and my prediction has basically been validated. Nothing has been validated because CETI has not retracted their claims, including their later nuclear transmutation claims; I have not retracted my observations; and CETI is now manufacturing more effective long-lived cells that produce better power density. Unfortunately, they keep these secret. This claim cannot be validated without first overthrowing the most fundamental, holiest of holy laws of physics. Wharton's hypothesis is far more radical than any nuclear hypothesis offered to explain CF. If Wharton could prove this to the satisfaction of the scientific community he would become the most famous physicist in the world. Unfortunately, even if he does prove that CF cells violate thermodynamics, he still has not explained CF because it also produces transmutations, radioactive isotopes, unnatural isotopic distribution, x-rays, and other nuclear effects. Cold fusion may not be fusion. It may be mostly fission, or ZPE or some totally unknown source of energy. I have no idea what it is or where to look for the answer, but the very last explanation I would consider is Wharton's: a gross violation of thermodynamics. He does not even try to grapple with the nuclear effects, which the ZPE and shrinking hydrogen advocates are willing to take a crack at. I have no idea whether Mills' explanation for isotope shifts and x-rays is correct but at least the man is trying to account for the totality of the evidence. Wharton is pretending that most evidence does not exist! He says "I think it is beyond doubt that a valid measurement of heat output has been made." It is equally beyond doubt that some cathodes produce x-rays, and that Tom Claytor and Fritz Will produced tritium. Helium and some host metal transmutations are, by their nature, more difficult to establish with confidence, so a theorist might be forgiven for ignoring these. But a person who believes the calorimetry while rejecting Claytor's tritium is just as irrational as a person who throws out all evidence. - Jed [Comments by Murray] Shanahan's hot H2 bubble hypothesis is a very cogent proposal. Was it debated or tested years ago? During a four-hour talk with Dennis Cravens [dennis wazoo.com] in Los Alamos on Friday, Nov. 14, 1997, Cravens, as I recall, made clear points to me about the PowerGen 95 CETI cell: It was an "demo", not an "experiment". A lot of people ran all kinds of measurements and tests on it in a rather chaotic way, deriving high excess heat values that Cravens did not bother to dispute or support. Measurements that seemed to indicate very high power outputs were of transient heating effects and did not measure the long-term equilibrium situation. After 1995, Cravens, supported as a researcher by CETI, has not continued experimenting with bead cells. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 20:59:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16299; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:49:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:49:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980113224811.00831100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:48:11 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980113213256.006c9b30 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980113153535.00a7055c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lNL2b1.0.X-3.0F4lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:32 PM 1/13/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >This is called "hydrogen disease" of copper. >Cast tough-pitch copper is very sensitive. Oxygen-free coppers are not. That is certainly an appropriate name for it! The copper in question came from standard 4 ga stranded Cu wire (commonly used in heavy residential wiring). Isn't that certain to be the OFHC stuff? Vince said, >Maybe use stainless steel wire to support the filiment? We think alike. When I discovered the Cu problem, I made new supports from SS304 wire only to find that it was so hard that I could not crimp it onto the tungsten filament satisfactorily. I went back to new Cu leads. >Or use the original supports from the auto lamp? I considered that! They look good...I may go to them next time. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 13 21:05:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17427; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:55:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:55:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BC36BC.CB5 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:53:32 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i9W_61.0.5G4.bK4lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan. 13, 1998 Wow! Kirk Shanahan [kirk.shahahan srs.gov], I sure wish I had heard of your hypothesis two years ago. I don't recall any hint about it from anyone. Were there any posted discussions or tests? I suppose it would be possible to set up a bead bed in a cell with four flat sides, two somewhat wider, and shine a light through the thin dimension, recording bubble formation with a video camera. Would this be worth a few days of your time, Scott Little [little eden.com]? Perhaps, accumulated H2 in large bubbles, suds, foams, and froth well spontaneously combusts erraticly with O2 at the anode, the top of the electrolyte, or at the outlet tube, generating a persistent, local hot spot in proximity to the outlet temperature measuring station, as a common artifact in many apparent excess heat systems, including the Arata and Zhang cells. Fierce fluctuations in the froth well would produce the notably wide variations in dramatic apparent excessive heat, up, down, slow, fast, shown in Arata's months of data. Such a H2 froth well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady recombination. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 00:18:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09180; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:14:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:14:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Scott Little" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP action! Magnesium Wool "Gettering" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:09:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd20c3$bb30efe0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1iwtB3.0.JF2.UF7lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, If you have any magnesium barstock or such, you can turn off some "wool" on the lathe if you keep it cool, or have a tank of argon and a hood fashioned out of plastic film over the cutting tool. Aluminum "wool" will do also. Frank Stenger has some aluminum barstock in his Garage, but he won't part with it. :-) If you put this someplace in the chamber it should getter the Oxygen and Nitrogen (Magnesium will form Mg3N2 at about 300 C and MgO from H2O also)from the KNO3 without throwing off the energy heat-balance-protocol? Otherwise the "water cycle" is going to transport the tungsten from the filament to all over everything in the chamber leaving you without any idea of how much power is actually going into the filament. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 01:30:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14398; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:26:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:26:13 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Scott Little" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP action! Aluminum Foil "Gettering" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:16:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd20cd$10c878c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"jlF0S1.0.rW3.nI8lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I just remembered a problem that cropped up with using aluminum for water heat pipes even at 100 C. The water kept working on the aluminum forming Aluminum Hydroxide Al(OH)3: 6 H2O + 2 Al ----> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2. The non-condensable H2 gas messed up the heat pipe operation. So,cut some strips of Reynolds Wrap and use them as a getter in the cell. Other than that one could try some Fine Clean steel wool. This gets Frank Stenger off the hook too. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 02:12:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18600; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:08:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:08:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Beer-Can Hydrogen Generator Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:04:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd20d3$bf6b23e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tBFNS2.0.XY4.sw8lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Aluminum cans will "dissolve" in a warm water solution of lye, (NaOH or KOH) releasing Hydrogen. The lye forms an alkali aluminate catalyst that effects the reaction: 2 Al + 6 H2O = 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2 As long as the water-catalyst (in a steel pan) is kept at about 80 F or so, all you need to do is add Beer or Soda Pop cans and water. A medium sized car can get by on 25 beer cans/mile,about what you can collect along the highway on a payday night. The good news is that out of every cubic inch of water consumed you get about a standard cubic centimeter of Deuterium (D2). Thus when Cold Fusion is State-Of-The-Art you can go BEER-CAN NUCLEAR! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 02:58:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA31410; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:55:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:55:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD09C2.13F2 itl.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:53:54 -0800 From: Nick Palmer X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: test - ignore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BbjOC.0.ig7.kc9lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: testing only From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 05:54:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20569; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:50:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:50:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980114084855.010b7ce0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:48:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980113224811.00831100 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980113213256.006c9b30 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980113153535.00a7055c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zKjdK1.0.E15.yAClq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:48 PM 1/13/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >At 09:32 PM 1/13/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > >>This is called "hydrogen disease" of copper. >>Cast tough-pitch copper is very sensitive. Oxygen-free coppers are not. > >That is certainly an appropriate name for it! The copper in question came >from standard 4 ga stranded Cu wire (commonly used in heavy residential >wiring). Isn't that certain to be the OFHC stuff? > Why? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 06:50:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA30710; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:46:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:46:16 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:45:02 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980114145049785.AAA150 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"QngE02.0.hV7.s-Clq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rich attempts to apply a hypothesis of Kirk Shanahan to the A&Z experiment. He is equating a hypothesis about the Patterson cell and the data about the A&Z cell because they both use flow calorimetry, ignoring fundamental differences in the construction and operation between the two cells. This is not good science. > Subject: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 10:53 PM > > Jan. 13, 1998 > > Wow! Kirk Shanahan [kirk.shahahan srs.gov], I sure wish I had heard of > your hypothesis two years ago. > Perhaps, accumulated H2 in large bubbles, suds, foams, and froth well > spontaneously combusts erraticly with O2 at the anode, the top of the > electrolyte, or at the outlet tube, generating a persistent, local hot > spot in proximity to the outlet temperature measuring station, as a > common artifact in many apparent excess heat systems, including the > Arata and Zhang cells. Inapplicable. Kirk is discussing readings of sensors immersed in the electrolyte flow above and below the bead bed, where local heating might occur by the presumed mechanism. In A&Z, the input and outlet temperatures measured are those of a stream of water in a helical coil, immersed in the electrolyte pool within the cell. Heat generated at any local hot spots on the cathode, and there may be some, is distributed and diffused by the pool of electrolyte. Fierce fluctuations in the froth well would > produce the notably wide variations in dramatic apparent excessive heat, > up, down, slow, fast, shown in Arata's months of data. Not so. See above. Such a H2 froth > well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination > catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady > recombination. This is pure conjecture, stated as a fact by a twist of rhetoric. The O and D gases from the anode and cathode do not spontaneously combine. It takes ignition, or the presence of the catalyst which is there for that specific purpose, to induce steady, quiet recombination of the evolved gases. I have another ongoing discussion with Kirk about the phenomena in the Pd black, but I haven't time to discuss it now. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 06:57:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA32414; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:51:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:51:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980114085234.00b70be0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:52:34 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980114084855.010b7ce0 world.std.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980113224811.00831100 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980113213256.006c9b30 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980113153535.00a7055c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Yms_y1.0.Kw7.44Dlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:48 1/14/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >>Isn't that certain to be the OFHC stuff? > Why? Good call, Mitchell. Apparently most wire is made from tough-pitch...with 0.03% oxygen. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 08:32:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24642; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:24:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:24:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BCD90A.2388 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:26:02 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Smith: re BLP tests Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"eolcK1.0.s06.JRElq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from mail1.centuryinter.net (mail1.centuryinter.net [207.17.135.251]) by slovakia.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA25488 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from jack.jack.org (anx1p3.lr.centuryinter.net [206.65.178.86]) by mail1.centuryinter.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12119 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:22:47 -0600 (CST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34BCAC38.286BB9D9 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:14:48 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net Subject: Re: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich Murray wrote: Jan. 13, 1998 Wow! Kirk Shanahan [kirk.shahahan srs.gov], I sure wish I had heard of your hypothesis two years ago. ... Such a H2 froth well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady recombination. Rich Murray Hi Scott, Does BLP use a tungsten filament? The presence of metals at any point in this process presents an opportunity for "trade secret" technology. This includes the walls of the reactor. What is the surface-to-volume ratio that BLP uses for the KNO3. Are they spreading it as a thin film? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 08:31:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17308; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:22:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:22:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:22:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: This is getting out of hand again In-Reply-To: <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-cF-r1.0.KE4.XPElq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The flames are creeping in... On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Rich Murray wrote: > Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:54 -0400 (EDT) > From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov > > Jed continues his diatribe with: > > > > Kirk Shanahan practices more fancy two-step evasions, and he deliberately > twists my words. I promise I will not respond again, but I cannot let this > pass. > > Really and truly? You mean I can say _whatever_ I want now and you > won't respond? (A likely story...) > Resume self-imposed Rothwell ban on continued commentary...(please!) > P.S. I was almost ready to bow out of this debate, because Mr. > Rothwell is a Master of Misdirection and has never apparently been > wrong in his life. As such his mind is untouchable by the likes of > me. His promise not to respond really caused the horns and tail to > pop out though... I will actually not respond any further to Mr. > Rothwell. If there is something one of you want to ask me about, you > have my email...I always reserve the right to refuse service. Jed gets nasty, Shanahan gets nastier. The only trouble is, Shanahan has under no obligation to follow the rules of this forum! Rich, this message from Kirk is not at all "squeaky clean." I don't think I want to send any more warnings about crossposting flames. Unless a large number of vortex-L subscribers have objections, I'm going to call a halt to this type of crossposting to vortex-L. It brings non-members into the forum for ongoing discussions, but the non-members have no reason to obey the forum rules. I can't yell at Kirk, he didn't post the message. Rich doesn't recognize the flames and edit the messages. If Kirk Shanahan, Dick Blue, etc., wish to join vortex-L and participate in a totally civilized, NON-SPF-LIKE debate, they are very welcome to do so? So why don't they? Subscribing and unsubscribing can be done it a moment, if a person wishes to duck in for a few days to discuss something, there's no technical reason stopping them ( lots of non-tech reasons though, I would imagine!) So, how many here would like to see these crossposts to vortex-L continue? If most would, then that's OK. If only a few would, then perhaps those members should have Rich add them to his CC: list. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 08:47:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27290; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:41:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:41:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BCDCAF.A1B earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:41:35 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass pahrump.com, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Carrell, Blue: re Shanahan hot H2 froth References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JDX7N3.0.Ig6.RgElq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:46:16 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:45:02 -0500 From: "Mike Carrell" To: Rich attempts to apply a hypothesis of Kirk Shanahan to the A&Z experiment. He is equating a hypothesis about the Patterson cell and the data about the A&Z cell because they both use flow calorimetry, ignoring fundamental differences in the construction and operation between the two cells. This is not good science. > Subject: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 10:53 PM > > Jan. 13, 1998 > > Wow! Kirk Shanahan [kirk.shahahan srs.gov], I sure wish I had heard of > your hypothesis two years ago. > Perhaps, accumulated H2 in large bubbles, suds, foams, and froth well > spontaneously combusts erraticly with O2 at the anode, the top of the > electrolyte, or at the outlet tube, generating a persistent, local hot > spot in proximity to the outlet temperature measuring station, as a > common artifact in many apparent excess heat systems, including the > Arata and Zhang cells. Inapplicable. Kirk is discussing readings of sensors immersed in the electrolyte flow above and below the bead bed, where local heating might occur by the presumed mechanism. In A&Z, the input and outlet temperatures measured are those of a stream of water in a helical coil, immersed in the electrolyte pool within the cell. Heat generated at any local hot spots on the cathode, and there may be some, is distributed and diffused by the pool of electrolyte. Fierce fluctuations in the froth well would > produce the notably wide variations in dramatic apparent excessive heat, > up, down, slow, fast, shown in Arata's months of data. Not so. See above. Such a H2 froth > well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination > catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady > recombination. This is pure conjecture, stated as a fact by a twist of rhetoric. The O and D gases from the anode and cathode do not spontaneously combine. It takes ignition, or the presence of the catalyst which is there for that specific purpose, to induce steady, quiet recombination of the evolved gases. I have another ongoing discussion with Kirk about the phenomena in the Pd black, but I haven't time to discuss it now. Mike Carrell Subject: Re: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:26:02 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A Blue" To: rmforall earthlink.net Rich, Kirk is certainly touching on a weak point with all the CF calorimetry -- that known heat sources within the calorimetry may be relocated in arbitrary ways that are not well matched from calibration to running conditions. The fact that heat production rates are commonly "noisey" during the runs that are said to show the "CF effect" is also an observation that some have taken as an indication that CF occurs in bursts. So if you have no bursts in heat output there frequently is no net excess heat. Isn't it just possible that the noisey signal is an indication that the calorimeter is in a mode which invalidates the calibrations? Several experimenters have commented on the effects of relocating temperature probes, and it seems to me relocating heat sources as Kirk suggests has equal potential for introducing systematic error. I certainly don't see the Arata-Zhang calorimetry as being bullet proof when it comes to the effects Kirk suggests. Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 08:47:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27474; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:42:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:42:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:38:53 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Hot froth nonsense Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801141140_MC2-2F4C-8876 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"lxCL43.0.Bj6.DiElq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Rich Murray will instantly buy any hand waving fairy tail invented by a "skeptic." He questions to death rock solid positive evidence. But when someone comes up with a contrived melange of ad hoc nonsense to challenge these claims, he throws away all doubts and becomes an instant true believer. It is pathetic. In his latest leap of faith, he writes: Wow! Kirk Shanahan [kirk.shahahan srs.gov], I sure wish I had heard of your hypothesis two years ago. I don't recall any hint about it from anyone. Wow indeed. I have heard identical hot air and hot froth dozens of times. Not just hints: loud cries, a constant drumbeat for weeks despite the fact that Logjan, I and many others explained why this is nonsense. We are sick of repeating ourselves but for Murray's sake I shall reiterate some of the points we made. The heating could not have been local around the vicinity of the outlet thermistor. I verified that by taking large samples of water, stirring them, and measuring the temperature. My 200 ml samples contained much more water than you can fit in the cell, the mixers, and the compartments holding the thermistor. In other words, all of the water in the entire cell was replaced several times as I took the sample, so if only the fraction of a milliliter of water surrounding the thermistor was hot, the other 199.5 ml would cool it down to the reservoir temperature. Logajan and I pointed this out many times during the original "local heating debate." I repeat it here only for Murray's edification; Shanahan will never listen. I also proved there is no local heating by putting my hand on the cell and observing that it was much warmer than anything else in the room. You couldn't miss it. The heating was not confined to one small location. Incidentally, Shanahan's claim that the mixers were removed is incorrect. They are readily visible in the ABC video. His continued claims that people cannot tell when water is flowing out of the end of a hose are crazy! One final note about that, which I may have neglected to mention. When Cravens was trying to eliminate bubbles by holding the return hose out of the reservoir up in the air, someone accidentally turned on the pump and the water gushed all over his shirt. That would not happen at a flow rate of 1 drop per minute. The hose impedance was slightly higher than normal because he was holding it up. Perhaps, accumulated H2 in large bubbles, suds, foams, and froth well spontaneously combusts erratically with O2 at the anode, the top of the electrolyte, or at the outlet tube, generating a persistent, local hot spot in proximity to the outlet temperature measuring station, as a common artifact in many apparent excess heat systems, including the Arata and Zhang cells. Oh come on Rich! For crying out loud! How many times are you going to make that same mistake?! How many times do we have to tell you? In the Arata cell ONLY PURE COOLING WATER CIRCULATES!!! Shanahan's imaginary suds, foam and froth would be in the cell. The inlet and outlet thermistors are outside the cell. The cooling water would pass through the imaginary suds and exit the cell as pure as it was going in. It would not carry the suds anywhere near the thermistor. Heat excursions in the cell from recombination would not be focused on the outlet thermistor any more than heat excursions from joule heater calibration pulses, electrolysis or other sources would be. Furthermore -- and this is even more important -- the Arata cell generate continuous, positive heat excursions sometimes adding up to many megajoules. One graph, which includes only part of a continuous burst, shows more than 50 megajoules! That is more energy than you get from burning a kilogram of gasoline, one of the most energy dense chemicals known to man. The cell is too small to hold a kilogram of any chemical. If you split every gram of water in the cell into oxygen and hydrogen gas that would still not be enough to store 50 MJ. And obviously, if the recombiner failed and potential chemical energy began building up in the form of suds or gas, the cell would explode from pressure long, long, LONG before it could build up this much potential energy. Heat excursions from recombiner performance can be seen in data from closed cell experiments with highly sensitive calorimeters. Mizuno and McKubre have showed clear examples. These bursts produce far less than a 1 joule; power levels are on the order of ~10 mW. The whole point of the CF literature -- the single most important concept! -- is that the cells produce thousands and sometimes millions of times more energy than a chemical system of equivalent mass would be capable of. Murray totally fails to understand this. Fierce fluctuations in the froth well would produce the notably wide variations in dramatic apparent excessive heat, up, down, slow, fast, shown in Arata's months of data. Such a H2 froth well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady recombination. This hypothesis is wrong by six to nine orders of magnitude. The largest observed build up in real experiments is far less than 1 joule. Those "fierce fluctuations" are so small they are invisible to most calorimeters. Let me repeat: the bursts are 500 million to 1 billion times less than Arata's larger heat excursions. Murray is apparently incapable of doing the most basic quantitative analysis. When the SRI recombiner failed, causing the fatal accident on January 2, 1992, the total estimated internal energy of the gas was 39,700 joules. That's 1,300 times less than Arata. Pressure from built-up gas in the SRI cell before the accident was estimated at 300 atm. (See ICCF3 Proc., p. 143, 144.) This was in a large, heavy cell designed for high pressure operation, which is nothing like Arata's cell. It would be physically impossible for Arata's cell to build up more than a tiny fraction the SRI cell pressure. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 08:51:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22290; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:46:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:46:07 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801141645.KAA05651 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again In-Reply-To: from William Beaty at "Jan 14, 98 08:22:51 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:45:55 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HzCud2.0.0S5.BlElq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William J. Beaty wrote > The flames are creeping in... > So, how many here would like to see these crossposts to vortex-L continue? These mailing list groups can be much more strictly governed. As far as I can tell, there are no restrictions on any scientific content -- mainstream to fringe. So no one can complain that they are being suppresed. We just have a couple of restrictions -- no insults being the one I remember. Let's enforce it. Doesn't matter if it is x-posted or direct, newcomer or old timer. The demise of the internet is due to the proliferation of an permanent insult oriented class of posters. Let's keep that weed from taking root here. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:11:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27205; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:05:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:05:06 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Hot froth nonsense Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:01:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd210e$1914e360$bc91410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_ORC22.0.se6._0Flq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 9:20 AM Subject: Hot froth nonsense Jed wrote: > > Perhaps, accumulated H2 in large bubbles, suds, foams, and froth well > >Fierce fluctuations in the froth well > > >- Jed (fRothwell)? And at the mouth too? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:17:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01118; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:05:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:05:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BCF013.50D2 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:04:19 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again References: <199801141645.KAA05651 mirage.skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4k0PE.0.OH.21Flq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > > Let's enforce it. Doesn't matter if it is x-posted or direct, newcomer > or old timer. The demise of the internet is due to the proliferation > of an permanent insult oriented class of posters. Let's keep that > weed from taking root here. > I'm with you, John! When one's motive becomes DOMINATION as opposed to COMMUNICATION, one should get dumped. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:28:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30770; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:17:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:17:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:13:13 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: SRI pressure was 30 --> 300 atm Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801141216_MC2-2F42-ADF6 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Wj54t1.0.NW7.qCFlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex In a previous message I wrote: "Pressure from built-up gas in the SRI cell before the accident was estimated at 300 atm." I misread that (ICCF3 Proc., p. 143.) Pressure was 30 atm, but pressure during detonation "was taken to be 10 times the gas pressure before detonation or one half the Chapman-Jouget pressure." So they estimate 300 atm during the explosion. My other comment stands. This was in a large, heavy cell designed for high pressure operation, nothing like Arata's cell. You see the build-up of negative enthalpy in the graph on p. 147, about 1 watt for 48 hours, peaking at -3.5 watts. It is spooky! If the Arata cell was gradually storing up energy, enough to make a huge sustained 50 MJ burst, you would see a similar 50 MJ deficit, earlier in the data. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:52:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08061; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:45:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:45:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:47:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: D2 Stripping and Flipping Questions Resent-Message-ID: <"N5zPg1.0.rz1.acFlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Since I have no understanding of the nucleus, the following are all really questions. Is any of this correct? If flipping the relative spins of the proton and neutron in the deuterium nucleus can result in fission of the D nucleus, then the implication seems to be that the magnetic binding energy for the D nucleus exceeds (and, if reversed, can overcome) the strong force binding energy for D. Looking at the binding energy for D we get: n 1.0087 1H 1.0080 + ====== 2.0167 2H 2.0140 - ====== .0027 AMU x (931.5 MeV/AMU) = 2.5 MeV Looking at magnetic moments we have: p 2.792 muN n -1.913 muN The p and n have similar magnetic strengths. If we let N--S designate a proton and NS a neutron (because the proton has a stronger magnetic dipole) then we could expect an H2 nucleus to be capable of orbiting like so: N | S | N S Fig. 1 or if more excited like so: N | S | N S Fig. 2 One can orbit the other based solely on magnetic attraction. It is also reasonable to assume the H2 nucleus might periodically superposition as: N S N S Fig. 3 One thing of interest about this configuration is that it is not symmetrical with regard to deformation by combined electrostatic and inirtial forces. The nucleus should be deformable much more laterally then vertically. This is because the configurations in Figs 1-3 is attractive while the following configuration is repulsive: S N N | | S Fig. 4 The implication is that a very short event capable of overcoming the binding energy of the D nucleus would have a higher probability of separating the nucleus if the collision occurs in the direction of magnetic field alignment (vertically in Fig. 4 above.) That is because a very short event could create the Fig. 4 configuration from a Fig. 3 configuration. Another implication is that a nearly inconcievably strong magnetic field could spontaneously flip the spins and separate the D nucleus. On a more practical note, though, any magnetic field should tend to destablize the D nucleus by creating a natural inclination to the p and n: ^ | B N | S | N S Fig. 5 Such an angle could be exaggerated by applying NMR. Note further that the unstable situation depicted in Fig. 5 below should create a flipping event: ^ | B N | | S N S Fig. 5 That is because the neutron, having been rotated and drawn into the low position in Fig. 5, is magnetically attracted to a superpostition as in Fig. 3, but with the poles reversed. A flip could be expected to result. What happens to the binding force momentarily dring this transaction is a matter of dynamics, depending on the speed with which the superpostion occurs. It would appear that applying a resonant lateral oscillating B field (NMR) to enhance the relative maxnetic axial rotation, and also applying an oscillating electrostatic field in the B direction, or atomic collisions in the B directions, would enhance the likelyhood of these flipping events. It is not implied that the flipping events so generated would be sufficient to cause D fission, because the flip during superposition never creates a fully repulsive configuration. However, it should momentarily weaken the binding energy. Another strategy for reducing the magnetic binding energy might be to involve a high speed electron. If an electron with sufficient speed that its wavelength were about the size of the proton were to superposition with the proton then the magnetic portion of the binding energy would essentially disappear. Eliminating the magnetic binding energy should permit fission at 1.25 MeV vs the 2.5 MeV normally required. However, if a flipping situation is also concurrently involved, much less energy may be required. Another strategy for achieving D fission might be to apply the necessary energy with photons. Using a combinaton of superpositioned flips (or at least NMR destablized nucleii) and 1.25 to 2.5 MeV photons, might achieve a good D fission rate. If a large percentage (say 50 percent) of photons generated could be absorbed by D nucleii, then converting each resulting neutron to 10 MeV would produce a very usable COP. One of the problems with attempting to pump energy into the nucleii with NMR is that, as the nucleii begin to precess, they radiate away the very energy that is desirable for them to keep. It may be helpful to set up a resonating cavity to re-utilize the radiated energy. Still, it seems impossible to pump even 1/10 the needed 2.5 MeV per nucleus into the nucleii in this fashion. If a gas x-ray laser could be made, however, then diluting the gas (probably xenon) with some D might be a feasible way to generate neutrons. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:53:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07593; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:43:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:43:05 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BCF8D0.5BDE36F2 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:41:36 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HE1SW.0.Zs1.eaFlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > So, how many here would like to see these crossposts to vortex-L continue? I think my opinion on this is clearly on record. Intentional cross posting is an abuse of this list's subscriber's good faith participation, financial sponsorship, valuable time, and available resources. It is outrageous IMO to see this practice continue unchallenged. No brainer if you ask me, it's already the in rules: Cease and Desist. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:55:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03173; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:38:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:38:57 -0800 Message-Id: <34BCF26D.E5B1FAF8 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:14:21 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: gravity modifiers References: <199801130124.RAA21236 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1UBIc3.0.Tn.lWFlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > > Ever taken a ride on a jet turbine airplane? ;-) > > RT If this question (answer) is belong me: Yes, I did not found a direct relation with the acceleration of SC disk against the gravity of the Earth and its aether pumping direction. If the direction of the beam is solely determined by its acceleration, a SC accelerated on arbitrary direction will pump the aether on this direction. Even if this will be observed, I did not found anything on your theory to predict this. Otherwise, if the direction is determined by the gravitational interaction of the Earth, how this will affect the SC to emit aether on this direction, as a don dispersive beam? (Assuming in your model, earth is an amorph object which attenuate isotropic a ether pressure without a preferred direction). How we can imagine aether emission, what its propagation properties? If it is obeying wave mechanics, which constraints make it a beam? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 09:56:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03987; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:41:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:41:16 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:35:15 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"BzDuU1.0.A-.xYFlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-13 23:52:45 EST, you write: > I made new supports from SS304 wire only to >find that it was so hard that I could not crimp it ... Yeah, 303 and 304 SS is hard/brittle for sure. I have some what I think is stainless steel wire (at least it showed no rust or corrosion hanging in my damp New York basement for 20 years) that is .040 diameter and very mallable. Let me know if you want and I'll lop off a five foot piece and send it to you. Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 10:06:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06406; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:52:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:52:26 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:48:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2114$aeaa49a0$bc91410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"SWJNd3.0._Z1.OjFlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 9:46 AM Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again Frank S. wrote: > >I'm with you, John! When one's motive becomes DOMINATION as opposed >to COMMUNICATION, one should get dumped. It will pass, Frank. A Jan 12 Full Moon Pulse of Millimeter-Micron-Infrared to the old Pineal especially during the low Sun illumination of winter has the Melatonin-Serotonin balance a bit awry. Even old Saddamn is up to aggressive nonsense again. Regards, Frederick > >Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 10:56:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17493; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:39:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:39:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:35:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd211b$2b9a2d80$c883410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Bekk3.0.6H4.HPGlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Steck To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 10:55 AM Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again >William Beaty wrote: > >> So, how many here would like to see these crossposts to vortex-L continue? > >I think my opinion on this is clearly on record. Intentional cross >posting is an abuse of this list's subscriber's good faith >participation, financial sponsorship, valuable time, and available >resources. It is outrageous IMO to see this practice continue >unchallenged. > >No brainer if you ask me, it's already the in rules: Cease and Desist. I Agree, John. As I said before Someone seems to have an Attention Deficit Disorder, or such. Regards, Frederick > > >-- >John E. Steck >Prototype Tooling >Motorola Inc. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >You don't stop playing because you get old, >you get old because you stop playing. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 11:02:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18774; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:50:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:50:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: MMA, VLA Competitor? Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:46:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd211c$bfc1ec40$c883410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"YVnfp3.0.Gb4.BaGlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The proposed 350 Micron to 10 Millimeter, Millimeter Array (MMA) to be set up at 16,400 ft on a mountain in Chile. Is to extend the National Radio Astronomical Observatory, NRAO "eyes" almost to the Infrared. Web site for pix etc. http://www.nrao.edu/mma Now that will give us a shot of EM-Bio interaction, Full Moon and All. :-) Some great technical challenges to get to 875 GigaHertz Heterodyne action oscillators though. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 11:32:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26811; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:15:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:15:48 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801131511_MC2-2F28-1AE1 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:15:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Wharton versus thermodynamics Resent-Message-ID: <"hUuZj3.0.gY6.WxGlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex In Jed Rothwell's posting there appears to be massive misunderstanding: > Now the energy, E, is given by > > E = Q + U > > with Q the heat and U the internal energy. So what are the measurments > of U? Exactly zero. There are no measurments of U. > >That is incorrect. All energy inputs were measured at two points: the single >AC connection to the wall which powered all components, and at the individual >components. Total input to the system never exceeded 50 watts. Output ranged >from 300 to 1200 watts. I was referring to the output measurements. Of course, the energy input is the A/C electricity, I agree with that and accept the given value of 50 Watts. So we have: Power in = AC power in = 50 Watts Power out = d/dt [ Qout - Qin + Uout - Uin ] It is imagined in cf true believer lore that the difference between potential energy flow out and in to the cell or Uout - Uin is zero. There is no measurement of this, it is simply imagined to be so. So the cf TB Power output is given by: TB Power out = d/dt [ Qout - Qin ] In all reported cf combined flow calorimetry experiments only the TB Power out has been measured and no attempt has ever been made to measure potential energy changes in the flow across the cell. I say "reported" experiments here because after I gave my simple procedure to test for potential energy changes, I think it is near certain that investigators with working cells, like Miley, Cravens and Patterson did this test but never reported on it. And it does not take much imagination to guess why they did not disclose the results. There is no valid excuse to refuse implementing my simple test procedure. To review it, there are two steps: 1. A filter should be placed in line with the cell outflow and before the temperature measurement. The filter in the cell inflow line ensures that the inflow electrolyte is crystal free and similarly, a filter in the outflow line will ensure that the outflow electrolyte is crystal free. 2. The cell outflow should be diverted into an insulated container, allowed to stand for a time about equal to the complete transit time of the electrolyte through the system, and then the temperature should be measured. All the TBs I have talked to, some of which had first hand experience in observing a working Patterson cell, have thought that test 1 is a good idea. Since crystal formation has a heat of fusion associated with it, ensuring a crystal free flow in both input and output is appropriate. Test 2 has actually been done to a certain extent by a number of TBs including Jed. Any perturbation in the chemical potential of the electrolyte forced by the cell would have to relax back to equilibrium in a complete transit time. Otherwise, the cell inflow would have about the same chemical potential as the outflow. The transit time in the PowerGen 95 demo was about 1.5 minute so we are talking about a fairly short time. When this test has been done there always seemed to be a rush to measure the temperature as it would be cooling off and more rapidly than would be expected in the absence of a chemical potential relaxation effect. To quote Jed: "I confirmed the outlet thermocouple reading by taking a 250 ml sample of water from the outlet pipe during a flow test and immediately measuring the temperature before the sample cooled significantly." >The cell and all components were much warmer than the surroundings, so no part >of it could have been acting as a heat pump heat sink. That would violate the >Second Law. Therefore, all inputs must originate in the form of A/C >electricity. This argument is only valid if the actual heat transferred to the environment exceeds the power input. If that is not the case, no section of the experiment is required to be cold. Take my example of an in line ice maker enclosed in a cell with flowing water. The output would be water mixed with ice. The water temperature would be increased by the transfer of the heat of fusion of the ice formation plus the heating from the electrical power. If the water was kept in a good thermal insulator, like plastic tubing, the ice would melt giving a final temperature increased by the power input only. No part of this system would be cold if the total heat transferred to the environment did not exceed the ice maker power input. Of course Jed would argue that the heat transferred to the environment in the PowerGen demo exceeded 50 watts. The prime justification of this is his "hand measurement" in which he placed his hand over the cooling tower and found the air to be "palpable hot". So just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, cf excess heat is in the hand of the TB. > It is simply assumed, without any crediable basis, that U flowing into > the cell is the same as U flowing out of the cell. > >An AC ammeter and individual power meters on every component is as credible as >you can get! Electricity is the cleanest, easiest form of energy to account Once again I was referring to the chemical potential in the electrolyte inflow verses the outflow. The AC electricity input is the power in. The power output is determined by measuring the change across the cell of only one (the heat) of the two basic components of energy. The change in chemical potential is ignored. > Even if the pump could somehow generate chemical fuel which >it injects into the cell (Wharton's hypothesis), it could not continuously put >10 or 100 times more energy into the fuel than it draws as electricity. This is not my hypothesis. No fuel is being generated. My hypothesis has the cell forcing an exchange between kinetic and potential energy which we know can be done. In the in line ice maker analogy is chemical fuel being generated? No it is just moving heat from the ice formed to the water. If one were very foolish he could measure only the temperature of the water flow in this example and conclude that there were an "excess heat". The error would be ignoring the potential energy change associated with the phase change. > It has been two years since I discussed this effect and gave my simple > procedure for detecting it. I gave my comments following the PowerGen > 95 CETI and predicted at the time that this would be the end of the > large "excess heat" claims in combined flow calorimetry systems and my > prediction has basically been validated. > >Nothing has been validated because CETI has not retracted their claims, >including their later nuclear transmutation claims; I have not retracted my >observations; and CETI is now manufacturing more effective long-lived cells >that produce better power density. Unfortunately, they keep these secret. I think my claim has been validated by the subsequent absence of any further evidence of the excess energy claims. CETI gave no more high power demos. They were planning to sell heat generating kits but instead sold transmutation kits which produced no excess heat. They came out with their hot water heater that was 1.2 to 1 instead of 1000 to 1. The hot water heater was not a combined flow calorimeter because the electrolyte could not be mixed with the hot water flow. It would not be practical to be taking a shower with water mixed with Lithium Sulfate. Then George Miley decided not to publish a paper on the excess heat because he found it to be uncertain. This is another validation. >This claim cannot be validated without first overthrowing the most >fundamental, holiest of holy laws of physics. Wharton's hypothesis is far more >radical than any nuclear hypothesis offered to explain CF. If Wharton could >prove this to the satisfaction of the scientific community he would become the >most famous physicist in the world. Nothing is radical about my hypothesis if the Carnot cycle efficiency is not exceeded. The first run at 17 degrees delta T had several problems and the second run at 6.7 delta T should be used. The Carnot limit would then be a factor of 44.7 . Times the pump power of 35 Watts gives 1560 Watts. Thus about one third of the pump power would have to be delivered to the cell. That may be possible, we don't know for sure. > Unfortunately, even if he does prove that >CF cells violate thermodynamics, he still has not explained CF because it also >produces transmutations, radioactive isotopes, unnatural isotopic >distribution, x-rays, and other nuclear effects. This other evidence is important and should be looked at. The x-rays could simply be produced by something like micro quakes and have nothing to do with nuclear effects. Claytor's tritium production might be significant. Of course care must be taken so as not to confuse it with a P-D molecule. The massive transmutation evidence is very questionable. It is hard to believe that such massive nuclear transmutations may occur without an accompanying massive heat effect, either heating or cooling. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 11:33:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24958; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:10:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:10:00 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Carrell, Blue: re Shanahan hot H2 froth Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:07:57 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980114191413770.AAA258 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"56prs2.0.s56.6sGlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Rich, > > Kirk is certainly touching on a weak point with all A blanket, non-specific claim not supported by specific discussion of any one of a variety of structures. > the CF calorimetry -- that known heat sources within the > calorimetry may be relocated in arbitrary ways that are > not well matched from calibration to running conditions. Now a conjecture, not a discussion of specific experiments. > The fact that heat production rates are commonly "noisey" > during the runs that are said to show the "CF effect" is > also an observation that some have taken as an indication > that CF occurs in bursts. So if you have no bursts in > heat output there frequently is no net excess heat. Specifics, please? Details of the CF process are unknown and uncontrolled. That does not mean they do not exist. In the A&Z case, there are extended periods -- tens of hours -- of sustained excess heat production with variations of the same magnitude as calibration runs with Pt cathodes. Blue's argument does not apply so far to A&Z. > Isn't it just possible that the noisey signal is an indication that > the calorimeter is in a mode which invalidates the calibrations? Conjecture. Let's discuss A&Z, if you please. Blue does not indicate what experiment he is talking about. > Several experimenters have commented on the effects of relocating > temperature probes, and it seems to me relocating heat sources > as Kirk suggests has equal potential for introducing systematic > error. Let's separate A&Z from other structures. Point temperature probes inside a cell do not measure the same as probes in clean water circulating through a cooling coil submerged in the cell, as in A&Z. Point temperature probes in the Patterson cell are not the same as liquid diverted into a cup, stirred and measured with a bulb thermometer as Jed did at PowerGen. Let's have a discussion of specifics from Dick. > I certainly don't see the Arata-Zhang calorimetry as being > bullet proof when it comes to the effects Kirk suggests. Specifics, please, exactly what mechanism does Dick suggest to support this assertion? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 11:34:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27070; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:16:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:16:51 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:10:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"YiNkI1.0.kc6.XyGlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14-Jan-98, VCockeram wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-13 23:52:45 EST, you write: >> I made new supports from SS304 wire only to >>find that it was so hard that I could not crimp it ... >Yeah, 303 and 304 SS is hard/brittle for sure. I have some >what I think is stainless steel wire (at least it showed no >rust or corrosion hanging in my damp New York basement >for 20 years) that is .040 diameter and very mallable. Let >me know if you want and I'll lop off a five foot piece >and send it to you. Stainless aircraft safety wire should work fine and it is readily available ___ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 11:36:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28425; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:21:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:21:04 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:16:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2120$f6f89c00$c883410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"oUukF2.0._x6.U0Hlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The 80 degree F temperature area is over the "Pacific Rim" of undersea volcanic activity Howcome if it is Solar (Global Warming) you don't see it anywhere else? Like say, The Bermuda Triangle? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 11:57:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28572; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:48:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:48:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:51:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again Resent-Message-ID: <"MKsvt.0.L-6.TQHlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:41 AM 1/14/98, John Steck wrote: >William Beaty wrote: > >> So, how many here would like to see these crossposts to vortex-L continue? > >I think my opinion on this is clearly on record. Intentional cross >posting is an abuse of this list's subscriber's good faith >participation, financial sponsorship, valuable time, and available >resources. It is outrageous IMO to see this practice continue >unchallenged. > >No brainer if you ask me, it's already the in rules: Cease and Desist. Yes, but too bad it doesn't look like it's going to work out. It was nice to see some CF discussion, but unpleasant rehashes of old spf debates and the validity of old experiments doesn't seem to go anywhere useful. BTW John, the book on H2 electrolysis you recommended has finally been shipped to me from Amazon, according to notice I just received: Your order #7960-7997853-144823 (received November 15 1997 05:54 PST) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Ordered Title Price Shipped Subtotal ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 Fuel from Water : Energy Indep 24.95 1 24.95 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Subtotal: 24.95 Shipping & Handling: 3.95 Total: 28.90 Only took two months to ship! Also, Scott already sent some Ni electodes. So, I look forward to some experiments. Will post. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 12:07:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00487; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:59:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:59:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:02:02 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? Resent-Message-ID: <"s9Vxx3.0.W7.YaHlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:16 PM 1/14/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >The 80 degree F temperature area is over >the "Pacific Rim" of undersea volcanic activity >Howcome if it is Solar (Global Warming) you >don't see it anywhere else? Like say, The Bermuda Triangle? :-) > >Regards, Frederick Could be volcanic activity is affected by thermal expansion of the earth's crust? Would take a long time to reach much depth. Could be related to warming at turn of the century? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 12:43:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11876; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:27:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:27:26 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BD1F7C.68EDD60 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:26:36 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"g6MN51.0.Ov2.i-Hlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Yes, but too bad it doesn't look like it's going to work out. It was nice > to see some CF discussion, but unpleasant rehashes of old spf debates and > the validity of old experiments doesn't seem to go anywhere useful. I agree. I was sure others were languishing in silence as well, but it's nice to hear it's not just me being grumpy again. 8^) > BTW John, the book on H2 electrolysis you recommended has finally been > shipped to me from Amazon, according to notice I just received: > Only took two months to ship! Also, Scott already sent some Ni electodes. > So, I look forward to some experiments. Will post. Great! I picked up a couple of "Brown's" Gas manuals since our last discussion to check out the cooling reports. Haven't had the chance to go over them yet, but if anything jumps out at me I will let you know. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 12:52:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13540; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:36:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:36:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD3D1E.36DD keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:33:02 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: billb eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KBbsx1.0.OJ3.M7Ilq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill! For my money, I don't think crossposting from emails of nonsubscribers is fair. If someone wants to participate, fine, sign on, otherwise what they have to say about discussions here are irrelevant. It makes much more sense for people to just speak for themselves to those here who can (and will) actively respond. There does seem to be a lot of arguing. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 12:53:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12923; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:34:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:34:11 -0800 Message-Id: <34BD0C21.CB59D78E verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:04:01 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Electrogravitics Motor experiment References: <321d8bd3.34bb2c41 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BtjM42.0.r93.15Ilq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 wrote: > > Dear All, > > I have updated my web site with an intersting document about a motor which > uses the electrogravitics effect, this device has been built by Patrick > Cornille and his team and we have conducted this experiment and the test > recently, I hope that this will interest you. [snip] Happy new year too you. Did you made a smoke test to see how the ionized air is moving / accelerating in the area? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 12:57:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14857; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:42:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:42:03 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:41:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980112235232.00a1efe8 cnct.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vn9jR.0.-d3.PCIlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:02 AM 1/13/98 -0800, you wrote: > I think Michael's suggestions are good ones , and I will probably > do as he says above. > >> But the best of my two scopes has only 100 mhz bw . However we're >> dealing with a signal bit duration of .25 usec across the same >> lightspeed propagation pathlength. >> >> I figure if the signal bit is delayed by the amount t(delay) = r/c , >> then the input signal bit (at the chopper end) should lead the output >> signal bit (at the generator end) by .25 usec. (75 ft = .25 usec >> approximately. >> >> However if the input and output variations of 1/4 cycle amplitudes are >> in phase , then we have zero time delay , which would be FTL. >> >> If you disagree with this conclusion , please discuss your >> considerations. > Yes, how are you getting 250 nanoseconds for a 75 foot run of > wire? By means of cryptology . For example , when I say 75 feet , I really mean 75 meters...... Sorry ! > Try Length_of_wire/Speed_of_light_in_vacuum. Hmmm....how innovative! :-) > A good rule of thumb here, 1 nanosecond per foot. This is suprisingly > accurate. I would expect the delay to be just that, 75 ns. Yes ...but you are not familiar with my unusual mathematical methods, are you? I use cryptology to make everything I postulate look ridiculous .... that's for the benefit of those outside my "inner circle" of "entered apprentices". >Another rule of thumb, experiment should have an order of magnitude >more resolution than the thing you're measuring. So you need to be able >to see down to 5ns per division on the scope. 10 if you're going to >just eyeball things. Your 100MHz unit might be game... OK ... back to being serious . This needs a detailed discussion of the modulation scheme . What I guess some of your comment is based on though is my mistaken 75 foot length of wire spec. However it goes an order of magnitude beyond even THAT . If we're dealing with a 1 mhz "carrier" frequency , why would we need to resolve down to the 10ns level ..? >>>>The long wire will radiate. Consider making the long wire run a two-wire >>>>transmission line instead, like in the old radio days, if it is consistnet >>>>with your experiment. >> > >>>Oddly, I found this not to be the case. > >>What does the "this" in your statement above refer to , Keith? > >> Are you saying the wire won't radiate or that a transmission line isn't >> consistent with the experiment ? Or something else? > >I'm saying that the transmission line composed of the single wire >and ground plane will make a suprisingly poor radiator. You would >think that with the characteristic impedence of this structure being >close to the free space impedence that the energy would just piss >off of the thing; but such is not the case. Well, anyway, it surprised >me. The two wire unit will be an even poorer radiator, again I >would think this is just what you're after, to resonate the line. >Why is radiation important? Radiation perpedicular to the wire length would indicate that the line is behaving more like an antenna or pure inductor instead of a transmission line . This is is an important central feature that the whole idea hinges on. Transmission lines necessarily involve delays which are what I am trying to circumvent . > >>> Having a good low impedence >>> ground connection made the resulting RF cavity Q quite high, as >>> Jim will discover if he rings up the line. Personally, I'd use >>> aluminum foil. Alot of it. Get the heavy kind, it'll last longer. > >> I'm confused here . What do I do exactly with the aluminum foil ? > That's what you use to make a good ground plane. Driving stakes > in the ground, etc, is not a good idea. The foil can be used to > provide a common ground plane for all points in the circuit. > >> The single wire length is not , repeat NOT a transmission line as most >> radio types normally define transmission line. Radio people would be >> more likely to call the single wire length an ANTENNA. The antenna is >> _supposed_ to radiate in order to perform as I expect it to. >> Er, it is both. You will find it's characteristic impedence to be >> about 400 ohms. Could you show me the process you used to arrive at that conclusion ? I believe you but , I'm trying to figure out how to make the overall effect appear more "antenna - like " rather than "xmission line - like". Unfortunately , since I do not have a tower the plane of polarization will have to be horizontal. >> I'm not sure what the spec is for the 4066 , however I equate in phase >> amplitude variations of the 1 mhz signal with a input to output zero time > delay. Let's clear this point up before I proceed . > >> Jim O.. >Now I'm confused Jim, please elaborate on this last point. Ok , here's where the whole FTL idea gets down to definitions of "what is a signal?" . We have to start off with a premise that you may question if you wish. It's another one of my "postulates" presented as "givens" . If you agree with the premise then the rest of the idea should make sense to you. The premise is "all data transfer is the result of precoding". This means that "beings" at both ends of a communication xmit-rcv device must agree on the meaning of transferred "data bits". If there is no prior agreement about this then what is transferred cannot be called "data bits" to begin with . The other way of saying this is that both ends must have identical copies of the bitmasking key. This mutual possession of the bitmasking key is a communication between the participants that occurrs outside the communications experiment. This way , "new" information , previously unknown to the rcv side can be transferred from the xmt side. These data bits all have pre agreed upon characteristics , such as bit duration time . No communication can take place "instantaneously" because data bits have to be "accumulated" over time. There has to be an agreement between the parties about the duration of the data bit rise , sustain , and fall times, PLUS the "meaning" of delay times before a new bit can be recognized. This means applying the bitmasking key previously agreed upon. In the diagram I made , the "chopper" 4066 device provides only an initializing event which is intended only to _begin_ the bit formation process which should be completed within the pre-agreed bit duration time . The 4066 does not provide a complete signal as such because the remainder of the signal has to be provided by the other parts of the signalling mechanism - the oscillator . The oscillator will allow a "baud rate" which is dependent on it's frequency . This baud rate involves a bit duration time which should not be confused with signal propagation time across the spatial distance between xmt - rcv. So we have to agree about how this communication scheme is supposed to work , for one thing . Let's begin with a mechanical analogy , the driven (from one of the ends ) damped mass - spring system . This would resemble the stiff automobile suspension coil with the shock absorber providing the damping force (resistance). How could one send a message from one end of this expanding - contracting coil arrangement to the other end? Let me try another ascii diagram : ^ | [Oscillating Force F] | V MMMMMMM <- mass m MMMMMMM ----o---- ---|-|--- ---|-|--- <- coil damped by shock absorber --|---|-- --|-*h|-- <- h representing closable hole at bottom end -- o -- of shock absorber ---------------^---------------- The result of opening the hole in the shock absorber will allow air to altenately escape or enter , reducing the damping effect . Opening or closing the hole does not affect the frequency of the oscillation , just the amount of driving force required to keep the oscillation going . If this hole is open for a short time relative to the duty cycle of the driving force , the energy of the oscillation occuring over the time of the entire cycle will increase in direct proportion to the size of the hole and the amount of time it is open. From the point of view of the driving force , the "message" that the damping force has been reduced can be derived by observing the magnitude of the free oscillation occurring after the hole opens. If one knows the size of the hole , the duration of its open state can be derived , if desired. This observation will take at least a quarter cycle in order to measure, but that is a function of the baud rate , NOT the spatial signal propagation speed up the length of the coil ! My argument is that both ends "know" that the hole is open or closed simultaneously because a mass - spring system consumes a known amount of energy per unit of mass within it's entire volume . This knowing is dependent on precoding - both ends know the size of the hole , the mass M (analog of inductance) Driving force F (analog of voltage) , damping force (resistance) etc etc . Thus : Opening the hole _immediately_ reduces the damping force in proportion to the amount of time it is open . However we are not sending "data" based on directly observing this hole opening duration, just the _RESULTING_ reduction in the damping force which must be derived by observing the behaviour of the oscillator taken as a whole over 1/4 or 1/2 of it's cycle. So what I'm saying is that I do not expect to observe the opening and closing of the cmos switch directly with my scope , however I will be able to derive its duty cycle immediately from the resulting increase or decrease of the energy of the free oscillation which results from the action of the switch. Here I will paste a complete analog table of Mechanical - Electrical oscillators with discussion following: Mechanical System Electrical System ----------------------------------|------------------------------------- Displacement x Charge q Driving force f Driving Voltage V Mass M Inductance L Damping force constant b Resistance R Spring constant k Reciprocal of Capacitance 1/C Resonant frequency SQRT (k/m) Resonant Frequency 1/SQRT(LC) Resonance width y = b/m Resonance width y = R/L Potential Energy 1/2 kx^2 Energy of Static Charge (1/2 q^2)/ C Kinetic Energy: Electromagnetic energy of moving Chg: 1/2m(dx/dt)^2 = 1/2 mv^2 1/2L(dq/dt)2 = 1/2 Li^2 Power absorbed at Resonance : Power absorbed at Resonance : Fo ^2 / 2b Vo^2 / 2R ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Basics of Mechanical Analogy Problem The idea of a mechanical analogy (mass-spring system) as suggested by Frank is helpful in visualizing what is supposed to happen and what we are trying to observe in the electrical harmonic oscillator case. How would someone send a message between opposite ends of a driven damped mass - spring system ? What came to mind for me was making a variable damping force . For the stiff automobile suspension coil system , this would be the equivalent of putting a closable hole in one end of the shock absorber which would result in the desired relaxation of damping effect when open (it would let the air inside the shock escape or ,alternately , enter by a small amount ) . My problem with this analogy has always been , "how could a relaxation of the damping force in a mass spring system not effect the oscillation at both ends simultaneously?" This is the same problem I have with the electrical model for a damped oscillator . If there was a delay due to light speed limitations , you would have the free oscillations becoming more or less energetic at one end somehow but not at the other end for a time = t=r/c , where r/c = the circuit dimensions relative to the velocity of light . No matter how small or how big this number is , you end up with with a +/- net amount of energy expressible in terms of VARS (volt - amps reactive) that I have never found a way to account for. >PS: A while back you posted on an experiment involving a chopped >laser and a pair of pockells cells. What became of this? Was anything >published? Sorry ... I don't feel at liberty to discuss that anymore since it involves a patentable interest belonging to Sansbury . When I do ,I'll post my comments here on vortex. Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 13:21:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09198; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:05:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:05:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:03:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199801142103.NAA29698 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? Resent-Message-ID: <"xY7Sj1.0.eF2.zXIlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 12:16 PM 1/14/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>The 80 degree F temperature area is over >>the "Pacific Rim" of undersea volcanic activity >>Howcome if it is Solar (Global Warming) you >>don't see it anywhere else? Like say, The Bermuda Triangle? :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > > >Could be volcanic activity is affected by thermal expansion of the earth's >crust? Would take a long time to reach much depth. Could be related to >warming at turn of the century? > The time profiles are wrong for volcanoes, they are not regular on an annual basis. The sun is coupled to the earth via acoustic pulsations of the aether. This alters the angular momentum of the earth annually as the earth increases and decreases it's radius (elliptical orbit), and thus red shifts and blue shifts the pulsations from the sun. The change in angular velocity is well known, but currently is blamed on leaf growth in the northern hemisphere. In spring, the earth is moving away from the sun and the pulsations are red shifted and the earths rotation slows down, in the fall the earth moves closer to the sun, the solar pulsations are blue shifted, and the earth speeds up. Warm water is lighter than cold water, and so it floats. Put a helium balloon in your car, step on the gas and accelerate forward, which way does the helium balloon move if free to float around? Answer, it accelerates FORWARD, not backward. This is counterintuitive because we are used to working with things that are heavy, and they are thrown backward. But it is the air in the car cab that is thrown backward and that forces the lighter than air helium balloon forward. The same thing happens on the earth as the earths rotation velocity increases. The colder ocean water is thrown backward toward Austrailia and Indonesia, and the warmer water is thrown forward toward the America's. The angular momentum also throws the warmer water outward, which means toward the equator. So you have a focusing of the warm water toward Central America where you have a nice land mass blocking the advance. So the water backs up away from the coast, and voila, El Nino. the acceleration of the water as indicated above occurs over 6 months from solstice to solstice, and the maximum acceleration ought to occur about in Sept Oct after the earth has coasted past the nominal equilibrium position. This is called libration when applied to the moon. For the moon, this notion is easier to understand because we know that the moon always points toward the earth. But the fact is, it oscillates back and forth a bit and exposes about 5 degrees of additional area now and then. that back and forth motion is libration (don't think it was libation but then a tipsy person is like the tipsy motion of the moon??? :-) Any way, the earth is doing the same thing with the sun's pulsations of aether outflow, except that the earth is phase locked to the sun's pulsations via connection to the land masses such as mountain ranges wich protrude outward from the nominal radius. Thus, the earth librates back and forth between exact phase match with the suns impetus. This accounts for the variability in the intensity of El Nino because some years the acceleration of the angular velocity is greater than others due to the magnitude of the deviation from nominal. The same phenomena also causes the fault along the Pacific to creek a bit. It is known that near Parkfield, the quake probability is greatest during the fall, when the solar action is accelerating the earth. Local to the Pacific, the "handles" that are coupling to the solar waves are the Sierras and the Rockies, which are on the North American plate. So the earth is being accelerated by pushing on those features. That opens up the crack along the San Andreas and allows weakened locations to slip more easily, thus the propensity for quakes in Sept. Oct. This is also seen at Mount St. Helens. Here, we have a propensity for eruptions and quakes in both the spring and fall months due to the stretching and compressing of the fault region under the mountain where the Pacific plate subducts under the N.A. plate. So you get a periodic pressure fluctuation under the mountain. Quakes are a non linear phenomena so it is hard to take that data and run with it, but there is a definite variation in the probability for quakes depending on the month of the year. As for a view of some of the waves formed on the seas, see ; http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/CAMPAIGN_DOCS/OCDST/shuttle_oceanography_web/oss_8 8.html ^ Don't forget that last l when you copy it see; http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/CAMPAIGN_DOCS/OCDST/shuttle_oceanography_web/oss_7 0.html for some more images from different angles at different times. These are VBrand waves, they have a 10 km crest to crest period, move at 8 km/hr and they are only about 4 to 10 cm in height. ie, you won't see them from the surface of the ocean because the deviation in height is too gradual. These images were obtained from the space shuttle. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 14:28:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06640; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:19:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:19:08 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801142218.QAA11816 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? In-Reply-To: <199801142103.NAA29698 Au.oro.net> from Ross Tessien at "Jan 14, 98 01:03:42 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:18:36 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QkK-V3.0.xc1.KdJlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > But it is the air in the car cab that is thrown backward > and that forces the lighter than air helium balloon forward. Yes. > The same thing happens on the earth as the earths rotation velocity > increases. I don't think this is correct. You have to be careful when mixing body acting forces and surface acting forces. Gravity and inertia are body acting forces. That is, they act on the whole body at the same time. Surface forces are applied on one surface of the object and have to be transmitted throught the object by compression or rarefaction waves. A dropped egg experiences a body force that accelerates it toward the ground but its internal state is absent surface forces (neglecting air resistance, and "ringing" from being let go.) This is same thing those junior astronauts feel when they dive in the Vomit Comet. When the dropped egg hits the ground, it suddenly feels the surface forces of contact. But it now has the body force of gravity and the body force of its built up inertia also acting in opposition to the collisional surface forces. Smash. Your balloon is also a combination of inertial body forces (the inertia of the heavier air versus the lighter helium) and the surface forces transmitted up from the wheels to the body of the car. There are no surface forces involved in planetary orbits, however. It is just the balance of two body forces, gravity and inertia, so you don't get the same effect as you would with a mix of surface and body forces. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 14:38:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12293; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:34:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:34:11 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:37:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? Resent-Message-ID: <"TCZmy1.0.w_2.YrJlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:03 PM 1/14/98, Ross Tessien wrote: >>At 12:16 PM 1/14/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>>The 80 degree F temperature area is over >>>the "Pacific Rim" of undersea volcanic activity >>>Howcome if it is Solar (Global Warming) you >>>don't see it anywhere else? Like say, The Bermuda Triangle? :-) >>> >>>Regards, Frederick >> >> >>Could be volcanic activity is affected by thermal expansion of the earth's >>crust? Would take a long time to reach much depth. Could be related to >>warming at turn of the century? >> > >The time profiles are wrong for volcanoes, they are not regular on an annual >basis. > [snip] I think it is the peaking of the El Nino that is in question. Annular variations can be attributed to annual weather patterns. It is the magnitude that is varying from year to year. Non-annual variations in deap sea volcanism in the separating Pacfic floor could contribute an underlying signal to the annual El Nino cycle. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 14:55:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15977; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:48:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:48:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:43:44 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Wharton versus thermodynamics Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801141747_MC2-2F4C-AD44 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"9-gUQ.0.Wv3.Y2Klq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Larry Wharton writes: In all reported cf combined flow calorimetry experiments only the TB Power out has been measured and no attempt has ever been made to measure potential energy changes in the flow across the cell. That is completely false. Many Pd and Ni experiments aside from CETI's have been done with ordinary cells over long periods using both water-based calorimetry and Seebeck thermoelectric calorimeters. I trust even Wharton will agree that his hypothesis does not apply to such cells. It only works with moving electrolyte experiments. Even if crystals were formed in one part of an ordinary cell, like McKubre's, and used up at the cathode, this would produce no net excess heat from the cell as a whole. In point of fact, CETI cells have also been extensively tested in non-flow calorimeters by CETI, Motorola and others, as I have pointed out dozens of times. The data is mostly unpublished. We showed a sample of the Motorola data in our magazine. So really, this entire argument is moot. 1. A filter should be placed in line with the cell outflow and before the temperature measurement. The filter in the cell inflow line ensures that the inflow electrolyte is crystal free and similarly, a filter in the outflow line will ensure that the outflow electrolyte is crystal free. Yes, we know, but these crystals could only be formed as a result of a chemical process driven by the power from the pump. You say the energy is scavenged from water inside that reservoir. That would cool the water, which *must* cool the surroundings. The reservoir and tubes are poorly insulated. You couldn't stop the thing from acting as a refrigerator! You cannot remove energy from the water at a rate of hundreds of watts or even 50 watts yet somehow prevent the water, in turn, from removing energy from the surroundings. A cold spot would develop corresponding to the warm spot at the cathode and heat exchanger. It would be easy to spot. The plastic surface would covered with condensation and it would be cold to the touch. If that is not the case, no section of the experiment is required to be cold. Take my example of an in line ice maker enclosed in a cell with flowing water. The output would be water mixed with ice. This is where you go off the track. It must act as an ordinary refrigerator, getting heat from outside the reservoir and tube, whether you want it to or not. There could be no balance because all components are known to leak heat like a sieve. The cell and the heat exchanger got hot when the reaction occurred. They did not get hot when it did not occur. The reservoir, on the other hand, stayed about the same under all conditions: when the cell was turned off, and during calibration with a joule heater, which lasted for weeks. The cell and heat exchanger radiated very different levels of heat, but the reservoir and pump outlet tube did not, so there was no balance. If the tube, reservoir, cell and heat exchanger had all been well insulated your hypothesis might have merit. Or, if nobody had ever tested cells in ordinary calorimeters, without flowing electrolyte it might be plausible. This is exactly the test you demand: put the whole thing, "refrigerator" and all in a box and test the entire box for net output. As I said, it has been done, but of course you will ignore this point -- and ignore it and ignore it as you have done for years! You will continue to assert that it has not been done. Meaning, I suppose, McKubre, Mizuno, Pons and Fleischmann, Oriani and the others must be a figment of my imagination . . . Of course Jed would argue that the heat transferred to the environment in the PowerGen demo exceeded 50 watts. The prime justification of this is his "hand measurement" in which he placed his hand over the cooling tower and found the air to be "palpable hot". So just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, cf excess heat is in the hand of the TB. It was *not* palpably hot when the cell was turned off and the calorimetry showed no excess heat. Neither was the cell. A similar cooling tower built by an independent observer easily shed hundreds of watts. How can you prevent the tower from working?!? It works willy-nilly. You cannot stop a blower from cooling off hot water any more than you can stop an uninsulated tube of cold water from attracting condensation. I think my claim has been validated by the subsequent absence of any further evidence of the excess energy claims. CETI gave no more high power demos. They were planning to sell heat generating kits but instead sold transmutation kits which produced no excess heat. They came out with their hot water heater that was 1.2 to 1 instead of 1000 to 1. That is incorrect. They never came out with a hot water heater. They want keep the heaters secret. Their heaters continue to produce thousands of time more input than output, and in heat after death, infinitely more output than input. Furthermore, as I said CETI, Motorola and other companies have tested the cells have used non-flow calorimeters. Then George Miley decided not to publish a paper on the excess heat because he found it to be uncertain. This is another validation. This is incorrect. He has never found it uncertain. I have discussed this issue with him many times. He has not investigated it in detail because he is unwilling to spend months putting together a calorimetry paper and rebuilding his cells to improve calorimetry. That would introduce contamination and hurt the main purpose of the experiments. Claytor's tritium production might be significant. Of course care must be taken so as not to confuse it with a P-D molecule. P-D molecules are not radioactive! The massive transmutation evidence is very questionable. Some is questionable, but some is solid. The Texas A&M transmutation products were radioactive, and they were verified by at least two major universities, at EPRI's request. It is hard to believe that such massive nuclear transmutations may occur without an accompanying massive heat effect, either heating or cooling. Whether it is hard for you to believe or not is irrelevant. Your difficulty believing is a reflection of your mindset, culture and background. An engineer from the year 1960 would have terrible difficulty believing that my computer has 32 MB of RAM and executes a hundred million instructions per second. Julian Schwinger believed these results; you don't. So what? In point of fact, as I understand the theorists, your sentence sums up the situation nicely: "massive nuclear transmutations occur without an accompanying massive heat effect, either heating or cooling." Right! Everything has to (nearly) balance. The exothermic nuclear reactions drive the endothermic ones. The endothermic ones never happen by themselves, so no CF cathode ever acts as a microscopic refrigerator or energy black-hole. Nothing in nature does, as far as I know. When there are no positive energy releases, the lattice cannot transfer energy and there are no accompanying endothermic reactions. Occasionally, a exothermic reaction does not trigger a corresponding endothermic reaction, and we get a slight temperature rise. The ratio of transmutations to heat exceeds that of conventional nuclear power sources like uranium fuel rods. CF is highly inefficient. It simultaneously fissions and fuses the nuclear fuel much faster than other nuclear devices, producing much less usable energy. It is kind of like a microscopic tokamak which uses up most of its energy to keep itself going. That's my understanding of the theories, anyway. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 15:50:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA31478; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:44:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:44:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980114184233.006ba95c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:42:33 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Wharton versus thermodynamics In-Reply-To: References: <199801131511_MC2-2F28-1AE1 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nVGEi.0.lh7.gtKlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:15 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Lawrence E. Wharton wrote: > Power in = AC power in = 50 Watts > Power out = d/dt [ Qout - Qin + Uout - Uin ] > Is this your definition of power out? That it depends upon the input heat in the definition? ---------------------------------------------------- > All the TBs I have talked to, some of which had first hand experience in >observing a working Patterson cell, have thought that test 1 is a good >idea. Since crystal formation has a heat of fusion associated with it, >ensuring a crystal free flow in both input and output is appropriate. Test >2 has actually been done to a certain extent by a number of TBs including >Jed. Any perturbation in the chemical potential of the electrolyte forced >by the cell would have to relax back to equilibrium in a complete transit >time. If the incoming cold water has crystals in it, will not the increased heat supply that heat of fusion, thus LOWERING the apparent observed heat. Seems, as pointed out several years ago, that there may be a minus sign error here for some types of crystals. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 16:03:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03099; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:55:58 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980114175227.00b77ccc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:52:27 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mDZsr3.0.Cm.C2Llq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The report is available at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run4.html This run was a mess...but not without value. The outgassing problem has been solved. Filament life is now the biggest problem. Fred, do you really think the Mg getter will fix it? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 16:03:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03169; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:56:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:56:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980114175428.00b7c910 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:54:28 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: what's happening to my Cu? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_yhtG.0.zm.J2Llq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:10 1/14/98 -0700, R. Wormus wrote: >Stainless aircraft safety wire should work fine and it is readily >available That's what I was using, Ron....you're right it is ductile...it's just a lot harder than annealed Cu. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 16:42:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13161; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:30:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:30:24 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, cwells@marshill.com, leet2@ibm.net From: Ed Wall Subject: John Shurer's Gravity Videotape Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:28:22 +0000 Message-ID: <19980115002809.AAA27847 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"6FOBP3.0.WD3.NYLlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John & Vortex, I, for one, would pay money to get a copy of this tape that was aired on German Educational TV, with English text (or a substitute clearly showing the anomalous gravitational behavior). I don't find it hard to believe that reputations being as valuable as they are and risk being what it is, that people might have the good intention of investing in the possibility of real O/U or gravity modification, until they think about the fact that what they find convincing will not convince everyone and may not convince that many people, people being married to their beliefs and fearing ridicule. It is much easier to let others take the risk and then try to gain from the knowledge for which they sacrifice to achieve. I admit that I fall into this class at present, but not because I would not like to try some replication work. It will take a real zinger of a demo to overcome mass paradigm paralysis. Ed Wall John Shnurer wrote: >Many have SAID, even in 'public' on Vo, the can put >their hands on big dollars, right away if we can show reproducible >results, but this has not happened, even though we captured it on video >tape and this was aired on German Educational TV several times From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 17:02:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20842; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:51:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:51:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199801150051.TAA00348 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:39:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again Reply-to: chronos enter.net CC: William Beaty Priority: normal References: <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"OuqUY2.0.U55.PsLlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 14 Jan 98 at 8:22, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > From: William Beaty > Subject: This is getting out of hand again > > Unless a large number of vortex-L subscribers have objections, I'm going > to call a halt to this type of crossposting to vortex-L. Excellent idea. > It brings > non-members into the forum for ongoing discussions, but the non-members > have no reason to obey the forum rules. This should make clear to those doing the cross-posting that their ideas are not being censored for content. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 17:14:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25184; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:06:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:06:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:00:33 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Video Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ehqOW.0.P96.14Mlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have just written the producer of the tape and have asked is it OK to send out tapes. Let you know when I do. On the front: We also have what looks like at least one, genuine viable non cryogenic effect. Even works from inside Faraday cage. We are just beginning so hold off on peppering me with questions until I know more! J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 17:26:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30584; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:22:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:22:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:21:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199801150121.RAA27099 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? Resent-Message-ID: <"vjlzC1.0.mT7.wIMlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >> The same thing happens on the earth as the earths rotation velocity >> increases. > >I don't think this is correct. > >You have to be careful when mixing body acting forces and surface >acting forces. I understand completely, and have been extremely careful. I think the statement is correct as it stands. The earth has mountainous protrusions to which the gravitational oscillations from the sun could couple. They can also couple to the water, but in so doing they only induce a current, they dont spin up the velocity of the earth. By gently rocking the earth like a jellyfish in the ocean, the assymetries of the earth will tend to phase lock to the rocking motion. The water cannot do this because it has no "handles" for gravity to grab on to and force the earth to accelerate. > >Gravity and inertia are body acting forces. That is, they act on the whole >body at the same time. Surface forces are applied on one surface of the >object and have to be transmitted throught the object by compression >or rarefaction waves. Correct. but if you grab onto the body of a fluid, you cannot induce action on the entire structure. If you have a lopsided sphere, and you gently rock it back and forth at a period that the sphere is rotating at, the protrusions will phase synchronize with the rocking motion. The moon does this already and remains phase locked to the earth. If the earth is composed of aether solitons, and it resides in an ocean of aether, then the property mass represents the amount of aether associated with the solitons being considered. That leads to the requirement that in the soliton universe, aether must be conserved and so the notion of "Equivalency" of mass and energy must be incorrect. And that leads to variations in the form of waves of aether headed out from the sun due to fusion reactions in the core. Those waves are composed of the same aether as the solitons making up the earth, and so the entire earth is rocked gently toward and away from the sun. But, the mountains are rigid structures. So you can forget the entire interior of the earth because that is virtually a uniform sphere. You can forget the water because that is nearly uniform and a fluid anyway. That leaves only the mountains that are assymetrical. So if you have a 160 minute period for the solar rocking, as we know we do, then the earth could phase and frequency lock to that wave energy, as we know that value divides evenly into 24 hours. Thus, sort of like a flywheel with lobes poking out, the earth is being driven by the solar rocking motion. Thus, you can accelerate the crust relative to the ocean even though the gravitational waves are body phenomena. The body is not symmetrical and so if your timings are correct, you can couple to the assymetry. > >A dropped egg experiences a body force that accelerates it toward the >ground but its internal state is absent surface forces (neglecting >air resistance, and "ringing" from being let go.) This is same thing >those junior astronauts feel when they dive in the Vomit Comet. > >When the dropped egg hits the ground, it suddenly feels the surface >forces of contact. But it now has the body force of gravity and the >body force of its built up inertia also acting in opposition to the >collisional surface forces. Smash. > >Your balloon is also a combination of inertial body forces (the inertia >of the heavier air versus the lighter helium) and the surface forces >transmitted up from the wheels to the body of the car. > >There are no surface forces involved in planetary orbits, however. >It is just the balance of two body forces, gravity and inertia, so >you don't get the same effect as you would with a mix of surface >and body forces. > - John Logajan I agree with your comments above. I didn't state otherwise in my example. You just didn't get the example. Take an egg, and tape it to a bicycle tire. Or use a weight. You now have an imbalance in the tire. The earth is not perfectly balanced due to the mountains and density gradients. Now, orient the tire in a horizontal plane and start it spinning a bit. Finally, add a motor to push the tire horizontally back and forth, in time with the imbalance passing the near and far side. The input impetus of the motor will act on all of the mass if the connection is via gravitation (rather than the axle). But the imbalance will still allow an assymetric coupling to the system and will allow the input gravitational waves to accelerate or decelerate the earths rotation just like the wheels rotation. That explain it better? Once you see that the gravitational waves can couple to the crustal assymetries, then it is clear that the water will slosh back and forth depending on whether you accelerate or decelerate the earths rotation. That established, it is just a question of whether or not the amplitude of the acceleration of the earths rotation is sufficient to induce El Nino or not. And btw, yes, there is a cold version of El nino that is 6 months away and also there is a "pooling" of cold water over in Indonesia during El Nino itself, which is the opposite effect of the warming near the S. America coast. It makes a lot of sense to me that this tendency is in the correct direction. Whether the amplitude of the effect of changing the earths rotational velocity is enough to induce it is another question. The answer to that would depend on how long it takes for the currents to transit the Pacific to allow the pooling of the warmer water. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 19:30:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10339; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:23:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:21:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: brush archives at case western reserve Resent-Message-ID: <"NvoGY.0.TX2.M4Olq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Charles F. Brush Collection at Case Western Reserve University http://www.cwru.edu/UL/SpecColl/Brush/Brush.htm they have a complete index of their archives, as well as photos of Brush and his laboratories... some snips from the list of publications: > "Changes in Density of the Ether and Some Optical Effects of Changes in > Ether Density" (1908) > "Discussion of a Kinetic Theory of Gravitation" (1914) > "Spontaneous Generation of Heat in Recently Hardened Steel" With R. A. > Hadfield (1917) > "Development of Magnetic Susceptibility in Manganese Steel by Prolonged > Heat Treatment" (1918) > "Some New Experiments in Gravitation: Fourth Paper" (1924) > "Some New Experiments in Gravitation: Changes in Weight of Metals under > Strain: Fifth Paper" (1925) > "Discussion of a Kinetic Theory of Gravitation III; Some Experimental > Evidence Supporting Theory; Continual Generation of Heat in Some > Igneous Rocks and Minerals, Relation of this to the Internal Heat of > the Earth and Presumably of the Sun" (1926) > "Persistent Generation of Heat in Some Rocks and Minerals; and Its > Probably Significance" Second Paper (1927) > "Discussion of the Kinetic Theory of Gravitation IV; Correlation of > Continual Generation of Heat in Some Substances, and Impairment of > Their Gravitational Acceleration" (1928) and from the list of laboratory notes: > "Hardened Steel" experiments, 1917-1919 > Free fall experiments, 1921-1929 > Change of Weight Experiments, 1924-1929 > Generation of heat by Gravitational waves experiment, 1925-1929 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 20:47:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21645; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:38:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:38:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BDAE0A.2EAA keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:34:50 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Video References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dpzlo.0.6I5.QBPlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts John et al! That is a great idea, videotape your successful experiments, maybe showing construction, operation, caveats and whatever else might be useful, then sell the tapes.....like Richard Hull is doing.....for $25 shipping including and all prepaid by check... I've had private tapes commercially duplicated for as little as $12 each in groups of 25...of course, the more you have copied, the cheaper per unit cost....I had to make the labels, but its easy nowadays.... Ok, so $5.00 for shipping, $10 for a copy (with box), sell it for $30.00, you get 50% to help pay for your hardware and effort....neat idea, clean, simple, gets the information out and inspires others by showing how they too can do it... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 21:08:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24752; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:01:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:01:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980115004108.00a45a10 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:41:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"M8QpM3.0.b26.nWPlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:41 PM 1/14/98 -0800, you wrote: > > By means of cryptology . For example , when I say 75 feet , I really > mean 75 meters...... Sorry ! Oh. Ok. > > > Try Length_of_wire/Speed_of_light_in_vacuum. > > Hmmm....how innovative! :-) > Ok, maybe I was a little sarcastic... > > A good rule of thumb here, 1 nanosecond per foot. This is suprisingly > > accurate. I would expect the delay to be just that, 75 ns. > > Yes ...but you are not familiar with my unusual mathematical methods, > are you? I use cryptology to make everything I postulate look > ridiculous .... that's for the benefit of those outside my "inner > circle" of "entered apprentices". > > >Another rule of thumb, experiment should have an order of magnitude > >more resolution than the thing you're measuring. So you need to be able > >to see down to 5ns per division on the scope. 10 if you're going to > >just eyeball things. Your 100MHz unit might be game... > > OK ... back to being serious . This needs a detailed discussion of the > modulation scheme . > > What I guess some of your comment is based on though is my mistaken > 75 foot length of wire spec. However it goes an order of magnitude > beyond even THAT . If we're dealing with a 1 mhz "carrier" frequency , > why would we need to resolve down to the 10ns level ..? > This thing is kind of, err, big. I'd hop to a 10 MHz oscillator, still in the full range of the scope and the circuit will be down in size a factor of ten. I mean, your going to want to look at the thing for awhile...You live near a football field? > > Radiation perpedicular to the wire length would indicate that the line > is behaving more like an antenna or pure inductor instead of a > transmission line . This is is an important central feature that > the whole idea hinges on. Transmission lines necessarily involve delays > which are what I am trying to circumvent . I see. > > Could you show me the process you used to arrive at that conclusion ? I > believe you but , I'm trying to figure out how to make the overall > effect appear more "antenna - like " rather than "xmission line - > like". Unfortunately , since I do not have a tower the plane of > polarization will have to be horizontal. By measurement. To make something more antenna like, check out books on antenna theory. Extensive literature here... > > >>Now I'm confused Jim, please elaborate on this last point. > > Ok , here's where the whole FTL idea gets down to definitions of "what > is a signal?" . > > We have to start off with a premise that you may question if you wish. > It's another one of my "postulates" presented as "givens" . If you > agree with the premise then the rest of the idea should make sense to > you. > > Quite large snip > Jim O. I'm a little clearer on the idea now. I'd advise, best heat up the soldering iron and start constructing. I think you have enough for a first cut. Whatever you do, try for a smaller size. It's much nicer to do these thing indoors, especially in January. By the way, have you ever heard of the term "storage field"??? I believe this term comes from quantum optics? KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 21:16:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25941; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:08:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:08:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BD8BF4.310E earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:09:24 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tnmnA2.0.DL6.vcPlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan. 14, 1998 Bill Beaty, Oh my God! You're absolutely right. I plumb forgot all about editting any messages carefully for any hints of flaming before crossposting to Vortex-L! I apologize. Partly, I was lazy about doing the editing. Partly, I was taking sides. As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 21:25:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02177; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:17:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:17:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD8D06.4485 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:13:58 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Blue: Chubb: bosons in band states References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kKKdy.0.uX.nlPlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Re: Chubb: re Bosons in, Bosons out Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:32:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A Blue" To: rmforall earthlink.net Response to Scott Chubb, Your theory is just too adaptable. You can explain anything by assuming band states. It is important to remember, however, that you are ASSUMING the existance of all these states. I have not seen anything like a calculation to show that states of this sort actually exist and have the energies you assume they do. What the Arata-Zhang cathode form does do, I think, is to make it clear that the electrolyte with assorted impurities plays no significant role in the process. I agree that both hydrogen and deuterium pass through the cell wall to become available for loading the Pd black. However, I am at a loss to understand how it is that this mixed loading does not have some influence on the conditions you assume for the formation of band states. Do we not have to consider the hydrogen as an an impurity in the deuterium lattice and conversely the deuterium as an impurity in any equivalent hydrogen lattice. They simply are not identical particles anymore. Let's assume something like a 50:50 mix, for example, with random populations of either a proton or a deuteron at each lattice point. I don't think your band states can exist as you have described them under those condtions. Of course the obvious experiment would be to connect production rates of 3He and 4He to the relative concentration of p and d in the lattice. And if Arata would follow my advice and go to direct pressurization from gasses one should be able to quickly determine reaction rate dependences. However, I think it's a safe bet to say that more definitive measurements are not on the horizon. By the way, would you care to predict what would result if a little tritium were added to the mix of hydrogen isotopes? Of course we know it likely is already there! Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 21:56:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10522; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:50:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:50:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD961C.CA7 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:52:44 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, bockris acs.tamu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Rothwell, Murray re H2 froth References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3jhl-2.0.Ea2.oEQlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Hot froth nonsense Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:38:53 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Rich Murray will instantly buy any hand waving fairy tail invented by a "skeptic." He questions to death rock solid positive evidence. But when someone comes up with a contrived melange of ad hoc nonsense to challenge these claims, he throws away all doubts and becomes an instant true believer. It is pathetic. In his latest leap of faith, he writes: Wow! Kirk Shanahan [kirk.shahahan srs.gov], I sure wish I had heard of your hypothesis two years ago. I don't recall any hint about it from anyone. Wow indeed. I have heard identical hot air and hot froth dozens of times. Not just hints: loud cries, a constant drumbeat for weeks despite the fact that Logjan, I and many others explained why this is nonsense. We are sick of repeating ourselves but for Murray's sake I shall reiterate some of the points we made. The heating could not have been local around the vicinity of the outlet thermistor. I verified that by taking large samples of water, stirring them, and measuring the temperature. My 200 ml samples contained much more water than you can fit in the cell, the mixers, and the compartments holding the thermistor. In other words, all of the water in the entire cell was replaced several times as I took the sample, so if only the fraction of a milliliter of water surrounding the thermistor was hot, the other 199.5 ml would cool it down to the reservoir temperature. Logajan and I pointed this out many times during the original "local heating debate." I repeat it here only for Murray's edification; Shanahan will never listen. I also proved there is no local heating by putting my hand on the cell and observing that it was much warmer than anything else in the room. You couldn't miss it. The heating was not confined to one small location. Incidentally, Shanahan's claim that the mixers were removed is incorrect. They are readily visible in the ABC video. His continued claims that people cannot tell when water is flowing out of the end of a hose are crazy! One final note about that, which I may have neglected to mention. When Cravens was trying to eliminate bubbles by holding the return hose out of the reservoir up in the air, someone accidentally turned on the pump and the water gushed all over his shirt. That would not happen at a flow rate of 1 drop per minute. The hose impedance was slightly higher than normal because he was holding it up. Perhaps, accumulated H2 in large bubbles, suds, foams, and froth well spontaneously combusts erratically with O2 at the anode, the top of the electrolyte, or at the outlet tube, generating a persistent, local hot spot in proximity to the outlet temperature measuring station, as a common artifact in many apparent excess heat systems, including the Arata and Zhang cells. Oh come on Rich! For crying out loud! How many times are you going to make that same mistake?! How many times do we have to tell you? In the Arata cell ONLY PURE COOLING WATER CIRCULATES!!! Shanahan's imaginary suds, foam and froth would be in the cell. The inlet and outlet thermistors are outside the cell. The cooling water would pass through the imaginary suds and exit the cell as pure as it was going in. It would not carry the suds anywhere near the thermistor. Heat excursions in the cell from recombination would not be focused on the outlet thermistor any more than heat excursions from joule heater calibration pulses, electrolysis or other sources would be. Furthermore -- and this is even more important -- the Arata cell generate continuous, positive heat excursions sometimes adding up to many megajoules. One graph, which includes only part of a continuous burst, shows more than 50 megajoules! That is more energy than you get from burning a kilogram of gasoline, one of the most energy dense chemicals known to man. The cell is too small to hold a kilogram of any chemical. If you split every gram of water in the cell into oxygen and hydrogen gas that would still not be enough to store 50 MJ. And obviously, if the recombiner failed and potential chemical energy began building up in the form of suds or gas, the cell would explode from pressure long, long, LONG before it could build up this much potential energy. Heat excursions from recombiner performance can be seen in data from closed cell experiments with highly sensitive calorimeters. Mizuno and McKubre have showed clear examples. These bursts produce far less than a 1 joule; power levels are on the order of ~10 mW. The whole point of the CF literature -- the single most important concept! -- is that the cells produce thousands and sometimes millions of times more energy than a chemical system of equivalent mass would be capable of. Murray totally fails to understand this. Fierce fluctuations in the froth well would produce the notably wide variations in dramatic apparent excessive heat, up, down, slow, fast, shown in Arata's months of data. Such a H2 froth well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady recombination. This hypothesis is wrong by six to nine orders of magnitude. The largest observed build up in real experiments is far less than 1 joule. Those "fierce fluctuations" are so small they are invisible to most calorimeters. Let me repeat: the bursts are 500 million to 1 billion times less than Arata's larger heat excursions. Murray is apparently incapable of doing the most basic quantitative analysis. When the SRI recombiner failed, causing the fatal accident on January 2, 1992, the total estimated internal energy of the gas was 39,700 joules. That's 1,300 times less than Arata. Pressure from built-up gas in the SRI cell before the accident was estimated at 300 atm. (See ICCF3 Proc., p. 143, 144.) This was in a large, heavy cell designed for high pressure operation, which is nothing like Arata's cell. It would be physically impossible for Arata's cell to build up more than a tiny fraction the SRI cell pressure. - Jed [Comments by Rich Murray, rmforall earthlink.net] Jan. 14, 1998 I did indeed remember that the Arata cell uses a closed cooling loop of fairly clean water. Over months of operation, the water might collect dissolved impurities, like silica from glass, as is well known by reports by McKubre, Storms, and others, and thus possibly develop increased viscosity, flow reducing deposits, and froth. There is a chance that leaks might expose the cooling water to the electrolyte. My main vision was that froth in the cell allows the H2 to be stored for a while at the top of the cell and at other sticking points, such as the recombiner, so that reaction with O2 could generate transient local hot spots, close enough to the outlet temperature station to perhaps generate spurious excess heats. I am perfectly willing to be shown that this specific artifact can not or does not operate in any particular CF cell. It is the task of the objective, creative skeptic to imagine any possible artifacts that might be available to explain the sometimes impressively large apparent excess heats in many reports. A major issue is always, is the delta-T actually representative of the true average temperature change between inlet and outlet flows? I am skeptical about past claims, dating from late 1995, of remarkable excess heats from CETI cells, because no publicly available and independently testable CETI cell exists in 1997, to my knowledge, that exhibits any excess heat whatsoever. If uranium ore everywhere in 1898 failed to fog photographic plates, then Becquerel's 1896 report would be filed in trash cans. I am glad Jed Rothwell has provided details about some of the measurements on the PowerGen CETI "demo", the term that Dennis Cravens emphasized to me in our long talk. I was convinced that Cravens was disavowing any support on his part for huge excess energy output in that cell. And certainly, Cravens can not be dismissed as an uninformed, obdurant skeptic. I also notice that remarkable excess heat of up to 500% was claimed for the Ragland cell in 1995, but zero excess heat was found by two labs in 1997, with no explanation proved for the discrepancy. Naturally, any careful evaluator would want to see a promising cell confirmed by several independent labs. Is this an actual reality, as we start into 1998, for any CF cell? As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 22:06:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02666; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:59:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:59:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BD97DD.DDE earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:00:13 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass pahrump.com, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Blue: divergent CF results References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hkXDv.0.Xf.mMQlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan. 14, 1998 Where Jed sees no problems with the highly variable results claimed for various CF experiments I see big problems. I suppose it's equivalent to not counting the number of miracles that must be invoked as being a significant parameter for the experiment. If you believe in such miracles one is no more disturbing than 50 in a row. Unfortunately, the laws of probabilities generally raises its ugly head when we attempt to string together too many unlikely events. Jed's picture of the CF processes seems to be that something of unknown complexity occurs in a poorly controlled way with the final outcome being the result of some minor perturbation incidental to the experimental set-up. Today it may be 3He trapped in the solid, but tommorow we have massive nuclear transmutations. Well, Jed, I just don't live in that kind of a universe. If the multibody reactions resulting in a wide assortment of reaction products is characteristic of Miley's CF experimentation then anything dramatically different as the Arata-Zhang result is not part of the same, or even a similar, process. To leave the difference as just a minor whim is another one of the obvious absurdities of CF research. The likely explanation for such diverse results is that they are both artifacts! Dick Blue From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 22:15:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04102; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:05:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:05:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BD994E.19D3 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:06:22 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass pahrump.com, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Schaffer: Shanahan hot H2 froth References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OTXz53.0.z_.0TQlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Shanahan hot H2 froth hypothesis for CF cells Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:20:32 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com To: rmforall earthlink.net References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 Re bubbles in Patterson cells: 1. When we were first developing our experimental apparatus and proceedures to try to replicate Patterson/CETI results, we operated a transparent cell with no thermal insulation enclosing it. We indeed saw many of the small bubbles coalesce into a large bubble. Therefore, under at least some conditions it is possible that a large bubble exists in Patterson cells. 2. Bubble variations can indeed lead to fluctuations in cell voltage and temperature readings. However, I think that most experimenters average their data from many samples. 3. Bubble variations have minor effects on temperature readings taken in the exit tube above a good mixer. This is the technique that I used. Patterson's patents always picture his original cell, which is inadequate for calorimetry. Cravens told me about mixing and measuring in the inlet and exit tubes at the first CETI public display at ICCF-5 (Monaco), so CETI certainly knows what should be done. (Of course, I do not know the actual layout of their cells.) 4. CETI always calculates their power ratios as (thermal power out)/(gross electrical power in = IV). They do not take any credit for electrolysis power. Stated another way, CETI assumes the most conservative case---100% recombination in their cells, even though the measured recombination is typically < 10%. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 22:18:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16255; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:10:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:10:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD9AC3.31D4 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:12:35 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, jac@ibms46.scri.fsu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass pahrump.com, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Carrell: Blue: re Shanahan hot H2 froth References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DA5P21.0.oz3.WXQlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Carrell, Blue: re Shanahan hot H2 froth Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:10:00 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:07:57 -0500 From: "Mike Carrell" To: > Rich, > > Kirk is certainly touching on a weak point with all A blanket, non-specific claim not supported by specific discussion of any one of a variety of structures. > the CF calorimetry -- that known heat sources within the > calorimetry may be relocated in arbitrary ways that are > not well matched from calibration to running conditions. Now a conjecture, not a discussion of specific experiments. > The fact that heat production rates are commonly "noisey" > during the runs that are said to show the "CF effect" is > also an observation that some have taken as an indication > that CF occurs in bursts. So if you have no bursts in > heat output there frequently is no net excess heat. Specifics, please? Details of the CF process are unknown and uncontrolled. That does not mean they do not exist. In the A&Z case, there are extended periods -- tens of hours -- of sustained excess heat production with variations of the same magnitude as calibration runs with Pt cathodes. Blue's argument does not apply so far to A&Z. > Isn't it just possible that the noisey signal is an indication that > the calorimeter is in a mode which invalidates the calibrations? Conjecture. Let's discuss A&Z, if you please. Blue does not indicate what experiment he is talking about. > Several experimenters have commented on the effects of relocating > temperature probes, and it seems to me relocating heat sources > as Kirk suggests has equal potential for introducing systematic > error. Let's separate A&Z from other structures. Point temperature probes inside a cell do not measure the same as probes in clean water circulating through a cooling coil submerged in the cell, as in A&Z. Point temperature probes in the Patterson cell are not the same as liquid diverted into a cup, stirred and measured with a bulb thermometer as Jed did at PowerGen. Let's have a discussion of specifics from Dick. > I certainly don't see the Arata-Zhang calorimetry as being > bullet proof when it comes to the effects Kirk suggests. Specifics, please, exactly what mechanism does Dick suggest to support this assertion? Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 14 23:01:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28187; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:57:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 4 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:34:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd217f$9f2f91e0$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CiHgD3.0.5u6.KDRlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 5:02 PM Subject: BLP Run 4 >The report is available at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run4.html > >This run was a mess...but not without value. The outgassing problem has >been solved. Filament life is now the biggest problem. Fred, do you >really think the Mg getter will fix it? Scott, I know full well that you wouldn't "light" your ion gauge above 50 microns. Tungsten reacts with the gases, Oxygen and Nitrogen with a collision rate/unit area: 0.25*(N/V)* v where N/V is the number of atoms/molecules/unit volume and v is the average velocity of the atoms/molecules. You could increase the hydrogen pressure by orders of magnitude and play a numbers game with the oxidation rate (O2 or water cycle). The Mg (or Al foil) should spare the filament if you hold off heating the filament, until after the system including the KNO3 "vial" and the getter is baked out. Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 00:05:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16780; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:02:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:02:22 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 Message-ID: <55f06b66.34bdc243 aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 03:01:05 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: hamdix verisoft.com.tr Subject: Re : Re: Electrogravitics Motor experiment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"3hLFO.0.664.DASlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 14/01/1998 22:50:58 , hamdi ucar wrote: << Happy new year too you. Did you made a smoke test to see how the ionized air is moving / accelerating in the area? Regards, hamdi ucar >> Dear Hamdi, Sorry, I am not a smoker... :-) Today, I don't have checked myself the action of the ionized air on smoke particles around the rotating motor. For your information each cylinder has a weight of 9.5 Kg, and we have used 8 units....I don't think that ionized particles can break the rotation of this motor significantly.... Thanks for your comments, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 00:31:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08949; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:28:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:28:07 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980114184233.006ba95c world.std.com> References: <199801131511_MC2-2F28-1AE1 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:27:36 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Wharton versus thermodynamics Resent-Message-ID: <"sj4Tf.0.gB2.MYSlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: RE: "crystals" appearing in CF plumbing and providing excess heat in the equivalent of "a kilogram of gasoline" - I think I heard this story before somewhere, so I might be taking a risk by asking, but... Where can I buy a bag of these crystals? I'm tired of "parking my car at the top of a hill" so it will run the next time I want to use it, and this looks like a perfect solution. With a Patterson carburetor, I could fill my tank with water, toss in a spoonful of the magic crystals, and drive across the country - er, island. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 01:22:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13713; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:19:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:19:17 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 00:22:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"t7IGE.0.BM3.KITlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:41 PM 1/14/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] > ^ > | > [Oscillating Force F] > | > V > MMMMMMM <- mass m > MMMMMMM > ----o---- > ---|-|--- > ---|-|--- <- coil damped by shock absorber > --|---|-- > --|-*h|-- <- h representing closable hole at bottom end > -- o -- of shock absorber > ---------------^---------------- > > The result of opening the hole in the shock absorber will allow air to > altenately escape or enter , reducing the damping effect . > [snip] > Thus : Opening the hole _immediately_ reduces the damping force in > proportion to the amount of time it is open . This is fallacious. It is not known immdiately. It is not known any faster than the rate of pressure (sound) propagation through the individual media involved in the transmission (via the shortest path.) to the point of observation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 01:27:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23326; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:23:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:23:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Scott Little" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP Run 4 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:18:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2196$8c177340$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9oH1T3.0.Oi5.CMTlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Taking a different view I think your only error was to valve off the chamber with the filament on, before pressurizing with H2. This allowed the KNO3 vapors to chew up the filament: 2 KNO3 + 2 W ---> 2 WO3 + N2 + 2 K, for instance. The Hydrogen could "heal" the tungsten: 6 H2 + 2 WO3 ----> 2 W + 6 H2O keeping the filament intact (at the right temperature) especially if there was a good ratio of Hydrogen to Oxygen in the system which will be determined by the initial partial pressure of KNO3 and quantity etc. As stated earlier the KNO3 vapor will be reduced by the H2 also: 6 H2 + 2 KNO3 ----> 2 K + N2 + 6 H2O A tricky kinetics problem,but with a suitable H2/H2O-KNO3 ratio the filament integrity should be maintained. In Run #1 you had the KNO3 "boat" directly under the hot filament with a lot of exposed surface area and most likely hit the melting and/or a high sublimation temperature fast. There is still 4 K + 12 H2O to account for in the system and at the filament with the "excess" H2-W to watch. A real head scratcher. The H2O could be gettered with Mg or Al at 280 C, but you lose out on following the protocol. Fortunately, with High Vacuum work you have plenty of time to ponder these things as the system is being outgassed. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 03:12:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00881; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 03:07:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 03:07:46 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34BDDDCE.4FD351CF mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:58:38 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: brush archives at case western reserve References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8zWNM1.0.hD.1uUlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ralph muha wrote: The Charles F. Brush Collection at Case Western Reserve University http://www.cwru.edu/UL/SpecColl/Brush/Brush.htm ... Hi Ralph, Thanks for this reference and the list. At the moment I can't access it; hopefully the server will soon come back on line. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 06:55:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21514; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:40:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:40:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:24:47 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Murray, Blue comments Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801150927_MC2-2F6D-B31D compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"xJSGd1.0.-F5.2_Xlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Rich Murray writes: I was convinced that Cravens was disavowing any support on his part for huge excess energy output in that cell. I have talked to Cravens dozens of times and spent two or three days working with him. I have spoken with many people who have been to his lab, as recently as last month. He has never retracted his CETI results or expressed doubts about them. Earlier, Murray reported here that George Miley does not believe his own published excess heat results. That was an outrageous misrepresentation of Miles' views. If Miles had retracted any part of his findings, he would have published a formal statement in I.E. Again, I am sure these are his views because I have communicated with him directly, in person, and at length about this issue. I spoke with him while we prepared his paper for publication, at PowerGen, and again when he and I traveled around Japan and visited Hokkaido University. If Murray wants to believe that calorimetry does not work that is his business. He should not put his words into other people's mouths. Let him speak for himself! He should not claim that authoritative scientists like Cravens and Miley agree. Their formal publications, lectures and private communications make it clear they believe the excess heat is real. I also notice that remarkable excess heat of up to 500% was claimed for the Ragland cell in 1995, but zero excess heat was found by two labs in 1997, with no explanation proved for the discrepancy. Presumably this refers to Little and Merriman. I explained the discrepancy time after time after time, ad nauseam, here and in the pages of I.E. This was discussed here, and I remember it in detail because I helped pay for the beads. I will repeat myself again for Murray's benefit, although I am sure he will ignore me and repeat this nonsense. These experiments failed because the beads did not meet the specifications. They shed the thin film immediately, which means they lacked structural integrity and could never be loaded. The beads were fabricated by a person who has never seen the patent and has no experience in and no knowledge of cold fusion. The patent was deliberately withheld from him because CETI threatened a lawsuit, because they want to keep the technology secret. Under those circumstances it would have been a miracle if the beads had worked. Patterson has been making similar catalysis beads for decades. He is one of the world's leading experts in that field. But it took him years of hard work and trial & error before he succeeded. It is unthinkable than an untutored expert could achieve the same results in a few days in his first attempt. These experiments take months of effort. Dick Blue is quoted: By the way, would you care to predict what would result if a little tritium were added to the mix of hydrogen isotopes? [In the Arata cell.] Of course we know it likely is already there! We know nothing of the sort. They check for tritium and other radioactive contamination before beginning the experiment. Without a baseline the outcome would be meaningless. This is the same claim made repeatedly by Taubes. It is totally without foundation. It is obnoxious and libelous. Taubes made it up, Random House published it, and in any field other than cold fusion they would both be up to their eyebrows in court fees an libel judgements by now. In other professional fields of science, business, education, or medicine you would not get away with publishing false and damaging accusations of professional misconduct. I think Blue, like Taubes, is implying that Arata deliberately and surreptitiously added tritium. It would have to be surreptitious because Arata did not report adding tritium, which would be a vital detail. Murray is deliberately spamming this on Internet. He may point the finger at Blue and disavow the statements. He will claim he is "encouraging open dialog." I don't buy it. Blue's statements like "Of course we know it likely is already there!" are not dialog. They are calculated attacks on people's reputations. They are intended to confuse the issue, sow doubts where no legitimate doubts exist, and hamstring serious scientific research. So are Murray's "critiques," which have been disproved and discredited in every important detail, in rebuttals by Miley, Carrell, me and others. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 07:18:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26169; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:12:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:12:22 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BE2706.9D3053D6 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:11:02 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off Topic; Is El Nino Solar or Geothermally Heated? References: <199801150121.RAA27099 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XJfyh.0.pO6.JTYlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > Now, orient the tire in a horizontal plane and start it spinning a bit. > Finally, add a motor to push the tire horizontally back and forth, in time > with the imbalance passing the near and far side. > > The input impetus of the motor will act on all of the mass if the connection > is via gravitation (rather than the axle). But the imbalance will still > allow an assymetric coupling to the system and will allow the input > gravitational waves to accelerate or decelerate the earths rotation just > like the wheels rotation. Very interesting perspective. Basically you propose a celestial inertial drive mechanism to induce a 'flywheel' type rotation in orbiting bodies. How do you account for biased rotational direction? If these pulses are spherical, and uniformly tangential to a planet surface, wouldn't counter rotation, or zero rotation of some planets be just as likely? Have you analyzed the rotations other planets in our solar system with respect to this cycle (what about uniform gas giants)? The rotation of the solar system with respect to the Milky Way cycle (elliptical orbits as the imbalance system)? Sorry for all the questions. Seems to be mental quicksand for me this morning. The implications are far reaching! 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 08:02:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10150; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:52:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:52:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:52:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accountability in Research (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y3HOg3.0.PU2.93Zlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: bounced message, forwareded below ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:58:52 -0800 (PST) From: Frank Hartman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Accountability in Research (fwd) wjy not go inside the profession. See Candace Perts "Molecules Of emotion" and Dr. Beckers Cross Currents. The one's inside the profession are the best. talk to the superconductivity pioneers and the quark guy whose name slipped my mind. None of them coul d get their papers poblished. Bart Simon wrote: > Hi, > > A friend of mine passed this "call for papers" to me. The call is for a special issue of the journal Accountability in Research on "the supression of research". There is certainly experience of this amongst cold fusion folks so I thought maybe someone h ere might be interested in submitting something. I am pondering the idea of trying to write something myself... anyone want to collaborate? > > I include the relevant blurb below and the web site for the journal is: > > http://www.gbhap-us.com/journals/149/149-top.htm > > -------------- > ---------------- > >Suppressing research data > > > >Contributions are invited for a special issue of Accountability in Research > > > >There are many cases in which access to research data is restrained. This can be > >at the stage of doing research, as when researchers are denied access to > >archives, databases or collections. It can also be at the stage of reporting > >research, as when publications are censored or blocked. Restraints of this sort > >include: > > * defamation threats and actions used to restrain open discussion of research > >results; > > * intellectual property law used to prohibit the reproduction of data; > > * secrecy within organisations used to deny access to information; > > * national security legislation used to control areas of research; > > * organisational power used to deny researchers access to information about or > >retained by organisations and their members; > > * editorial power used to censor publications; > > * government or corporate destruction of documents; > > * individual discretion used to deny access to data. > > > >These and related areas provide a fruitful source of insight into struggles over > >research and accountability for it. Case studies can illustrate practices that > >serve to suppress research data, the rationales used to justify this, and > >possible strategies to ensure accountability. > > > >By its nature, researching the issue of 'suppressing research data' is > >difficult. Because so much of the data about this issue is itself inaccessible, > >there are limits to what can be expected of any particular study. Individuals > >can write about their own experiences and some generalisations can be made on > >the basis of the relatively few published accounts. This special issue will > >provide a starting point for further investigations. > > > >LENGTH: There are no specific word limits. > > > >DEADLINE: The final deadline is 30 June 1998, after which there will a rapid > >review process. All submissions will be read by the two editors and two other > >referees. > > > >FORMAT: Include an abstract of less than 200 words and up to six key words. For > >references use the author-date system (Smith and Jones, 1981) with titles of > >journals and books underlined in the following style: > >Manton, K.G., Stallard, E. and Vaupel, J. (1981) Methods for comparing the > >mortality experience of heterogeneous populations. Demography 18, 3:389-410. > >Draper, N.R. and Smith, H. (1981) Applied Regression Analysis (2nd Edition). New > >York: John Wiley. > >For more details and information about figures and tables, see any issue of the > >journal or contact the guest editors. > > > >Queries and submissions should be directed to one of the guest editors: > > > >Professor Mark Diesendorf > >Director, Institute for Sustainable Futures > >University of Technology, Sydney > >PO Box 123, Broadway NSW 2007, Australia > >phone: +61-2-9209 4350 > >fax: +61-2-9209 4351 > >email: Mark.Diesendorf uts.edu.au > > ===================================================== > Bart Simon simonb post.queensu.ca > Dept. of Sociology http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/ > Queen's University > Kingston, Ontario phone: 613-545-6000 x7152 > K7L-3N6 fax: 613-545-2871 > ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 08:22:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16394; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:15:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:15:21 -0800 Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34BE3604.2FEAA38C ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:15:00 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Re: This is getting out of hand again References: <34BD8BF4.310E@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"988l43.0.404.NOZlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rich Murray wrote: > Bill Beaty, Oh my God! You're absolutely right. I plumb forgot all > about editting any messages carefully for any hints of flaming before > crossposting to Vortex-L! I apologize. Partly, I was lazy about doing > the editing. Partly, I was taking sides. Daunting task, editing and censoring content from multiple persons of varying backgrounds, educations, and philosophies but still maintaining fair, open, and unbiased communication. Thank you, but sanitized cross posts are even less relevant on vortex IMO. What is the point if your target audience is not even interested enough to get on the SAME LIST! Since you already have the email addresses of people you really want involved, why not just email to them and leave the rest of us out of it? I don't know if you realized this yet, but debating specific elements or errors of past experiments or challenging qualified or unqualified personal opinions wont ever conclusively prove or disprove anything to anyone. Only overwhelming evidence will do that. You want to really help CF become a reality, stop talking about it and start GENERATING the evidence, start CREATING applications. Pretty simple if you think about it. Just a suggestion. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 08:28:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16964; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:19:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:19:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115101957.00a73324 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:19:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: what are they? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"H1jDx.0.z84.xRZlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Howdy Vorts, Take a look at http://www.eden.com/~little/what.jpg It's my crude effort at "research art"...but can you guess what the components are? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 09:33:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18265; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:24:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:24:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115112441.00b7017c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:24:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: near real-time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"234J1.0.JT4.bPalq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Take a look at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/overall.jpg It's a photo taken about 15 minutes ago...during Run 5. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 09:52:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06710; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:45:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:45:54 -0800 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801151745.LAA24187 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: what are they? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980115101957.00a73324 mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Jan 15, 98 10:19:57 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:45:43 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZB9pT3.0.he1.Gjalq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > http://www.eden.com/~little/what.jpg > It's my crude effort at "research art"...but can you guess what the > components are? Looks like copper crush gaskets to me. What do I win? -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 10:00:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10633; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:57:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:57:11 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: what are they? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:53:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd21de$8992d680$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"LLR0S1.0.2c2.stalq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Logajan To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 10:48 AM Subject: Re: what are they? >> http://www.eden.com/~little/what.jpg >> It's my crude effort at "research art"...but can you guess what the >> components are? > >Looks like copper crush gaskets to me. What do I win? How about a gross of copper crush gaskets? :-) Might be worth more than gold? Regards, Frederick > > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 10:24:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16548; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:14:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:14:26 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115131422.00b28100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:14:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Hollow Body Gravitation Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3470ac23.17566518 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rBQEg1.0.B24.08blq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:43 AM 11/17/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Perhaps the first step is to determine if in fact gravitational >considerations did play any role in early moon landing failures, and >if so, exactly what corrections were introduced to overcome them. >Any one have contacts at NASA? Yes, but not anything like what is being discussed here. First of all several probes had failures near the surface that had nothing to do with gravity. But there was one Ranger mission which just plain hit too hard. The lunar maria are denser than the underlying rock, and the rock in the highlands. As a result the gravitational differences from point to point on the lunar surface are much greater than on earth. (On earth, the gravitation pull does vary locally, but since everything is floating on the athenosphere anomalies are very localized. (The crust under mountain ranges like the Himalayas is very much thicker than under the oceans. If it wasn't, the mountains would sink.) Since the heaviest mascons (mass concentrations) are under the smoothest areas of the maria, it takes a few tries to get smart. In any case, if you remember the Apollo program, Apollo 10 was originally supposed to be the first lunar landing, but was rescheduled as basically a gravitimetric mission. The descended to within a couple miles of the surface, and the gravitational data on the mascons was used in picking a landing site for Apollo 11, and figuring a trajectory. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 10:36:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00600; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:26:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:26:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:25:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2KcIQ3.0.E9.MJblq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:41 PM 1/14/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] >> ^ >> | >> [Oscillating Force F] >> | >> V >> MMMMMMM <- mass m >> MMMMMMM >> ----o---- >> ---|-|--- >> ---|-|--- <- coil damped by shock absorber >> --|---|-- >> --|-*h|-- <- h representing closable hole at bottom end >> -- o -- of shock absorber >> ---------------^---------------- >> >> The result of opening the hole in the shock absorber will allow air to >> altenately escape or enter , reducing the damping effect . > [snip] >> Thus : Opening the hole _immediately_ reduces the damping force in >> proportion to the amount of time it is open . Horace Heffner wrote: > This is fallacious. It is not known immdiately. It is not known any > faster than the rate of pressure (sound) propagation through the individual > media involved in the transmission (via the shortest path.) to the point of > observation. Ah ! Now we're getting to the point . Your assumption here is that the air pressure has some unidirectional quality in the delay of it's effect (reduction or increase) being "detected" at one end after being "transmitted" from the other. But which end is the transmitting end ? Which end is the detecting end? From the point of view of the hole , the transmitting end of air pressure information is the oscillating force acting on the mass M at the "other end" .... but at the same time , from the point of view of the mass M, air pressure information seems to be "transmitted" from the hole. Which direction do you assume that this information travelling , Horace , in that it is subject to a time " delay" factor that also has a unidirectional meaning? Hint: The speed of sound in air is dependent on air pressure. Regards, Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 11:13:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07013; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:02:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:02:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115130146.00b7bae8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:01:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: what are they? In-Reply-To: <199801151745.LAA24187 mirage.skypoint.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980115101957.00a73324 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dDlBr3.0.Rj1.bqblq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:45 1/15/98 -0600, John L wrote: >Looks like copper crush gaskets to me. What do I win? Right you are....2-3/4" Conflat gaskets to be precise. And the little silvery things in the centers are nickel 1/4" Cajon VCR gaskets. I have to discard one of each every time I open up the BLP chamber. hmmmm! I hadn't thought about a prize.... Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 12:08:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13301; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:46:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:46:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115144104.006ab584 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:41:04 +0000 To: Scott Little From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP run3 (no KNO3) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980111234800.0083b6e0 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980111191313.00786e70 world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19980111163408.00829770 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980111151639.0078052c world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19980111134903.00834b80 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DeyMs.0.iF3.7Uclq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:48 PM 1/11/98 -0600, Scott wrote: >> The calibration is too short for starters. It should be half of >>the time scale, or a reasonable fraction thereabout. > >It was. Run 3 lasted ~24 hours...the input power was off for 14 hours and >on for 10. > There seem to be other changes occuring as your graph indicates. Good luck on your efforts and investigations. --------------------------------------------------- >>Take a look at one of our excess energy runs at >>http://world.std.com/~mica/jet.html > >You do have an impressively quiet calorimeter...only a few milliwatts of >noise and still able to handle a several-watt input level. > Thanks. --------------------------------------------------- >I'm curious about the temporal behavior of the excess heat signals in the >run you referred me to. It seems to "turn on" immediately with no loading >or charging period. > Please take a closer look as that is not what the graph shows. The input power preceeds (the black thick line) the detected output power, which is the thinner line, the same as for the noise shown on the lower left of the graphic. There is a lag, although compared to conventional Pd-D2O systems, it is relatively rapid. That is because of redistribution in the palladium electrodes of the isotopic fuel. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 12:12:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16889; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:01:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:01:39 -0800 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:01:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980115004108.00a45a10 cnct.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UOlTz.0.i74.Xiclq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > This thing is kind of, err, big. I'd hop to a 10 MHz oscillator, still > in the full range of the scope and the circuit will be down in size a > factor of ten. I mean, your going to want to look at the thing for > awhile...You live near a football field? I live near a very large desert , the Mojave in California , USA. Where do you live? > >> Could you show me the process you used to arrive at that conclusion ? > By measurement. Hmmm ... Thank you for this incredibly detailed explanation ! :-) >> I believe you but, I'm trying to figure out how to make the overall >> effect appear more "antenna - like " rather than "xmission line - >> like". Unfortunately , since I do not have a tower the plane of >> polarization will have to be horizontal. > To make something more antenna like, check out books on antenna theory. > Extensive literature here... Excellent suggestion . Thanks. > I'm a little clearer on the idea now. I'd advise, best heat > up the soldering iron and start constructing. I think you > have enough for a first cut. Not quite . I need : (1) an antenna like inductive wire config . (2) a 10 mhz oscillator (to Radio Shack I go!) (3) a 4066 chip and power source (1) will take some time to figure out after I get the antenna literature you suggested . > Whatever you do, try for a smaller size. It's much nicer to do these > things indoors, especially in January. Yes ... > By the way, have you ever heard of the term "storage field"??? > I believe this term comes from quantum optics? Not as it might relate to "Quantum" or "optics" . You can store energy in a Magnetic field though ... I once had a job working in the magnetic field . My boss would ask my co-workers "Where's Jim?" and they would reply "he's out in the field......" And he would say "Oh!" . But never once would he go into the field himself to try to find me . Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 12:22:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19791; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:15:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:15:34 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:19:07 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: near real-time Resent-Message-ID: <"I4xDJ.0.1r4.avclq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:24 AM 1/15/98, Scott Little wrote: >Take a look at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/overall.jpg > >It's a photo taken about 15 minutes ago...during Run 5. The quality of that photo isn't nearly as good as your scanned image is it? Still neat to see things in near real time. Pretty good sized punch-down block you have there. Network? Notice you have a help wanted sign. Assume that is "devine help" you need to make the BLP experiment produce energy? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 13:00:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA31758; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:44:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:44:06 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115144453.00a75f24 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:44:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: near real-time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4YvRf.0.8m7.LKdlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:19 1/15/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >The quality of that photo isn't nearly as good as your scanned image is it? I guess not. >Pretty good sized punch-down block you have there. Network? no just a lot of phone lines >Notice you have a help wanted sign. Assume that is "devine help" you need >to make the BLP experiment produce energy? Any source of help would be satisfactory... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 13:08:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28545; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:57:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:57:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115155623.009a9bb0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:56:23 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Off topic] Back to Basics Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199711191835.MAA13268 mirage.skypoint.com> References: <347303BC.2263 math.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uI7_M1.0.xz6.qWdlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:35 PM 11/19/97 -0600, John Logajan wrote: >Barry Merriman wrote: >> As I understand it, the black death was a boon to those >> who survived. They inherited the wealth of the dead, >> and set Europe forever on a course in enhanced personal >> prosperity. > >This seems counter-intuitive. If we assume that the black death >was indescriminate in its victims, then the average productivity >of the human population should not have changed. I'll put on my economist hat for a minute. First, tools increase productivity. This is usually expressed in terms of capital investment showing up as increased productivity. But in Europe during the black death, net capital investment per employee went way up as the available stock of workers disappeared. Let's relate this to farming. Say you have 100 farmers in a valley growing an average of 6 bushels of wheat per acre (remember this is the middle ages), on 1000 acres. But some of the land is providing up to 10 bushels per acre, over half only 4. Now 60 of the farmers die. The remaining 40, since they inherit better tools can now tend 12.5 acres each, so 500 acres are under cultivation. But these are the best acres, eliminating those producing just four bushels. 6000-2000 = 4000. So we now have 40 farmers producing 4000 bushels, increasing productivity from 60 to 100 bushels per farmer. The improvement is even greater for say a sheepfarmers, or dairy herders, where the investment is in the flock or herd more than the land. By culling the flock, you increase production, and also have meat to sell. ;-) There is another factor which should not be lost. Death due to the bubonic plague was not random. It was much more likely to kill people living in squalid conditions. The rich were by no means safe, but in the countryside, it missed one village and completely eliminate the next. If the cats and dogs kept the rat population low, the town had a chance. So the plague did select to some extent against poor communities. When it came to individuals, remember, many survived the plague, but those who survived were those in the best physical condition. Put all three (four) factors together: increased wealth per person, availability of land, selection against poor communities, and selection in favor of the young and healthy, you get about a doubling of net productivity. Yes it was a disaster, but the burst of wealth created the industrial age. (You don't need machines if people are available cheap, but after the plague that was not the case for about 150 years.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 13:10:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25960; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:47:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:47:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:46:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: hheffner corecom.net cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"tQ_DE3.0.WL6.FNdlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > > Which direction do you assume that this information travelling , > Horace , in that it is subject to a time " delay" factor that also has > a unidirectional meaning? Typo ....left out the "is" btw information and travelling . Gotta be precise here. Another way of putting this is " what is the absolute ordering in a time like direction of "cause" (transmit) and "effect" (rcv) ? Think about it ... Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 13:12:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27443; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:52:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:52:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115145239.00a76d64 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:52:39 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: temporal In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980115144104.006ab584 world.std.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980111234800.0083b6e0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980111191313.00786e70 world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19980111163408.00829770 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980111151639.0078052c world.std.com> <3.0.5.32.19980111134903.00834b80 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"iT8OJ2.0.di6.XSdlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 14:41 1/15/98 +0000, you wrote: > Please take a closer look as that is not what the graph shows. >The input power preceeds (the black thick line) the detected output power, >which is the thinner line, the same as for the noise shown on the lower >left of the graphic. There is a lag, although compared to conventional >Pd-D2O systems, it is relatively rapid. That is because of redistribution >in the palladium electrodes of the isotopic fuel. Yes I see it now. Thanks. BTW, I am co-hosting a workshop on calorimetry at ICCF-7. I would like to study details of your multi-ring calorimeter in preparation for that session. I have read "Consistency of the BiPhasic Nature of Excess Enthalpy In Solid-State Anomalous Phenomena with the Quasi...etc" but that is all so far. Do you go into further detail describing the calorimeter hardware in any of your other papers? Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 13:24:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19565; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:18:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:18:20 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:21:33 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Stagewise deuteron excitement Resent-Message-ID: <"nY9iP3.0.Vn4.Pqdlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems like the most effective method of stripping a neutron from the deutrium nucleus must involve electron collisions with the nucleus. The rational and implications for this follows: (1) about .5 MeV extra energy is momentarily added to the electron impinging the nucleus during a collision by the electrostatic potential between the electron and proton (2) the electrostatic force to some extent guides the electron to the nucleus (3) even a near miss will exite the nucleus to some degree (4) on a direct hit the electron and proton, or electron and neutron for that matter, can superposition, thus eliminating the magnetic attraction between the proton and neutron, reducing the binding energy to 1.25 MeV. (5) A strong magnetic field would tend to prealign the nucleii and the electron prior to collision (6) The implication of (4) and (5) is that significant neutron stripping should begin to appear with electron energies of only 0.75 MeV (7) Since a near miss of a nucleus by an electron, or a hit by an insufficiently energetic electron, would tend to excite the D nucleus, it is reasonable to think a series of two or more such interactions, provided they were separated by short enough duration, would be additive in effect. This implies that less than 0.75 MeV, possibly much less, could achieve the stripping of the neutron by stagewise excitement. (8) The presence of a strong magnetic field should amplify the effects of stagewise excitement by increasing the spin angle between the proton and neutron. (9) The implication of (8) is that the electron current density, thus the frequency of collision, can greatly affect the minimum electron energy required to strip the neutron (10) A fusor type device should be operated in a strong magnetic field and the frequency should match the nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) frequency for the field strength employed. If the goal is to maximize neutron production then the spherical electrode should be beryllium. (11) A DC type deuteron linear accelerator device at 0.75 MeV or above may produce significant stripping if the target is in a strong magnetic field. (12) An electron linear accelerator with a LiD target might produce significant neutron strippping, especially if the electrons could be delivered in a strong pulse, i.e. high density. The problem with using electrons is that the D freed from the target ruins the vacuum. Possibly Al or Be electrodes at either end of a linear accelerator tube with 0.75 MeV AC pulses applied would work. Each target would alternately be bombarded with electrons and then D nucleii. The D nucleii would then imbed in the target. Strong magnetic fields could surround the targets to maximize the stripping. Neutrons generated would tend to be directional away from the target ends, which is very good for managing incidental waste production like contamination of the magnet material or coils. Suitably designed concave targets could generate xrays which would also be of use in exciting the deutrium nucleii. (13) This raises the question of whether a tokamak or stellerator type device can be made to operate in an AC mode designed to maximize relative deutron/electron motion and electron current density, and achieve anywhere near 0.75 MeV electron energy? Is this a much more difficult goal than 0.020 MeV relative deuteron energy? At least ignition would not be a goal. The only goal would be to achieve about 2 MeV per neutron output. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 14:48:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04535; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:38:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:38:41 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19980115004108.00a45a10 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:38:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"X_mHP2.0.n61.m_elq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim O. wrote: > Not quite . I need : (1) an antenna like inductive wire config... A long wire, SHORTED at the far end, looks inductive if is is less than one quarter wave long. An open end makes it look capacitive. As I think I perceive your aim, you want a wire less than 1/4 wave long. You want it terminated by a low impedance to ground at the far end. You want to switch an impedance in and out of that end short to change the oscillating mode. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 15:19:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14013; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:13:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34BE980D.1464 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:13:17 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Bd-Dm1.0.oQ3.4Wflq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: > (snip) > Hint: The speed of sound in air is dependent on air pressure. > Not much, Jim. It's mostly a function of absolute temperature in the range where air acts like a perfect gas. Hey, I'm still tied up on my domestic chore right now so I don't have much time. However, I have to ask why you think an automotive spring- mass-shock absorber is such a great analog for your concept? This is about as messy an almost-lumped-parameter system I can think of! For gosh sakes, why not use a DISTRIBUTED PARAMETER model since we are going to need to bring DISTANCE into the thing for any FTL discussion. Why not use a simple vibrating string stretched between two points undergoing a fundamental 1/2 wave oscillation - like a piano string? It's a lightly damped , distributed parameter, standing wave mechanical system that seems more to the point. Why is the damping so important as long as it is not too great? I can't see how it enters into your concept. As I recall, the parameters for the string are the mass-per- unit-length, the tension force, and the distance between ends. The damping is there but involves non-linear air drag so is not easy to quantify. If the damping is small, it doesn't have much effect. You can modulate such a system just by tapping one end with an object to input a pulse. I guess the point is - does the far end "know" about the tap "right away" or is it delayed by the wave velocity on the string? Have to go. Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 16:22:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26803; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:07:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:07:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980115180715.00a77de8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:07:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZN04P3.0.gY6.0Jglq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's up: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run5.html Despite a relatively short bakeout and a filament that was in good condition going in to the H2 gas part of the experiment, we suffered a very rapid erosion of the filament again! I'm having a hard time believing the problem is due to contaminant gases...we've gotten rid of most of those and the erosion rate is still super fast. It's starting to look like a direct reaction between the W and the H. If you've already proposed such a reaction, propose it again, please. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 16:34:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29841; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:29:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:31:44 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"wuHjo3.0.8I7.Pdglq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim, I think you have correctly focused on the question of the direction of information flow in the cyclinder with piston at one end and a valve at the other end, as the rest of the mechanism is not directly relevant. Again I suggest that a change of state in the condition of the valve is not known any faster than the rate of pressure (sound) propagation through the individual media involved in the transmission (via the shortest path) to the point of observation. I suspect this example is only confusing you because the rate of sound travel is generally very fast compared to the rate a piston can move. Suppose for a minute the piston could withstand a sudden (for all practical porposes) infinite force and could travel at way above the speed of sound, say at the speed of light. The molecules of gas in the cylinder would simply deposit on the front of the cylinder in the form of a shock wave. An observer at the valve would not know the piston were coming at him at this suddenly accelerated velocity until it arrived. This example makes it clear that the initial source of information flow is from the incremental movement of the piston, dx, in a small interval of time dt. The piston is acting like a radar transmitter. Lets now assume the piston is moving in very fast increments, and slightly less than the speed of sound. It is then sending out pulses in the air. We can say that each of these pulses has its own pressure that is characteristic of the pressure directly in front of the piston, and that the separation between the pulses, i.e. the sound wavelength, is many times shorter than the length of the piston. If the piston moves for a while and then the valve is closed, these pulses are already on the way to the valve before it is closed. These pressure waves reflect from the valve end of the cylinder with more pressure if the valve is closed than if it is open. Therefore, an observer at the piston end will see a pressure increase (the returning sound wave) when the return pulse reaches the piston. Therefore, even though the piston motion dx initiated the information transfer, the delay is only based on the return trip. This gives a false impression of faster than sound information transfer. Taking this process to the limit, i.e. taking the limit as dt-->0, produces the continuous result, which involves the same amont of time for the information transfer, i.e. the time it takes for the return pressure wave from the valve. A radar can know the changed status, e.g. reflectivity, of a target in less time than it takes for the pulse to reach the target and come back. That is because the pulse was sent in advance of the change in target status. No need of information about the target status is needed to do this. The advance pulse is sent regadless of whether the target changes status or not. Looking at this in the more continuous form of your proposed oscillator, the waveform is sent from the transmitting end. Even if, due to resonance, the majority of the energy coming from the transmitting end (similar to the piston end) *is reflected* back towards the recieving end (similar to the valve end), it still is coming from the transmitting end and its prior history can be ignored. This is evident because if you terminated the transmitting end, or suddenly infinitely elongated the wire, the wave would not be re-transmitted plus transmitted (enhanced), and the oscillation would stop. So, a continuous wave of various electomagnetic "pressures" is transmitted from the transmitting end, *needed or not* for the information transfer from the opposite end. The information is appended at the receiving end. The information about the terminating resistor at the recieving end then returns in the time it takes for the *return path only.* However, this is not superluminal transfer of information. The information could more simply be transmitted from the recieving end, terminating resistor end of the wire, directly. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 16:40:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03248; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:32:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:32:47 -0800 Message-Id: <34BEA4B9.1A27DAC4 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:07:21 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Off topic(?): Could planets explode? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"91ir03.0.do.jgglq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, After reading the report of Tom Van Flandern on Exploded Planets Hypothesis (EPH) (see my previous posting) which claim planet explosions are not so uncommon to our solar system, a question to be answered is "When a planet explode?" Could a planet explode as a result of its internal dynamics? or planets could be assumed absolute stable systems including fission reactions occurring in its outer and inner layers and only be exploded by external events as collisions and tidal effect of binary systems? If there are conditions to makes planets unstable primary under nuclear reactions, could we talk about life of planets like life of the stars? For example if the nuclear reactions inside of a planet are regulated and balanced by thermal convection and keep the concentration of material under fission below a critical density of chain reaction, degradation of this convection system or progressive enrichment of neutron rich isotopes inside a layer of a planet may cause instabilities and even global reactions leads to explosions? Anyway, there is no reason to believe that planets have naturally infinite life while stars have finite life. As the final stages of dying stars are mostly enough to wipeout anything on its orbits, finite lifetime of planet concept could have dramatic effects (for its habitants) if planet life are shorter than their host stars. Of course there is already a very effective hypothesis encountered often on newsgroups on this subject. I could not finish this posting without mentioning it: Black Hole at the center of the Earth! :-) Have good weekend :3) hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 16:54:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01303; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:37:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:37:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:40:00 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"ffV582.0.7K.Dlglq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:13 PM 1/15/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] > As I recall, the parameters for the string are the mass-per- >unit-length, the tension force, and the distance between ends. The >damping is there but involves non-linear air drag so is not easy to >quantify. If the damping is small, it doesn't have much effect. >You can modulate such a system just by tapping one end with an object >to input a pulse. I guess the point is - does the far end "know" about >the tap "right away" or is it delayed by the wave velocity on the >string? Wow, much better model. I just wrote a long winded post about the cylinder/piston/valve model, but this is much more to the point! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 17:42:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10133; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:27:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:27:33 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex" Subject: Re: Off topic(?): Could planets explode? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:41:29 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2217$7c291020$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CGG3c3.0.AU2.0Uhlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Hamdi Ucar To: vortex Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 5:36 PM Subject: Off topic(?): Could planets explode? > >Of course there is already a very effective hypothesis encountered often on newsgroups on this subject. I could not finish this posting without mentioning it: Black Hole at the center of the Earth! :-) > Those are Coal Mines, Hamdi. And Coal Mine explosions are quite frequent. :-) Regards, Frederick > >hamdi ucar > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 18:52:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06894; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:41:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:41:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980115222213.00a57010 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:22:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RU7a61.0.Zh1.WZilq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>> Could you show me the process you used to arrive at that conclusion ? > > > By measurement. > > Hmmm ... Thank you for this incredibly detailed explanation ! :-) Well, the method was time domain reflectometry. Also by direct measure of V and I at points on the line when in various resonance conditions. The latter being by far the more difficult. By these means I came to know the field surrounding transmission lines. One means to the end of a radiator in the current circuit configuration would be to terminate the end of the line in the characteristic impedence of the line. Now you have what is referred to as a traveling wave antenna. Think about how this differs from the resonant condition... KPN NYC USA From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 19:06:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10709; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:57:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:57:54 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:53:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2229$f8433700$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"mS0G32.0.Dd2.noilq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 5:57 PM Subject: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science >It's up: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run5.html > >Despite a relatively short bakeout and a filament that was in good >condition going in to the H2 gas part of the experiment, we suffered a very >rapid erosion of the filament again! > >I'm having a hard time believing the problem is due to contaminant >gases...we've gotten rid of most of those and the erosion rate is still >super fast. It's starting to look like a direct reaction between the W and >the H. > >If you've already proposed such a reaction, propose it again, please. Hells Bells,Scott! Hydrogen Thyratrons as big as a 55 gallon drum with ponds of white hot Tungsten filaments have been used for Decades. Sodium vapor lamps use plasma temperature sodium 30 ev against hot tungsten and last 30,000 hours or more in your Wal-Mart parking lot. Add some Hydrogen and make Hydrinos? :-) Get Rid of the Damn Oxygen or hang it up! Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 20:07:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20674; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:50:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:50:23 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:46:04 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2231$456300e0$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"KkwDe.0.s25.yZjlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 5:57 PM Subject: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science >It's up: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run5.html > >Despite a relatively short bakeout and a filament that was in good >condition going in to the H2 gas part of the experiment, we suffered a very >rapid erosion of the filament again! > >I'm having a hard time believing the problem is due to contaminant >gases...we've gotten rid of most of those and the erosion rate is still >super fast. It's starting to look like a direct reaction between the W and >the H. > >If you've already proposed such a reaction, propose it again, please. If you want to stay with the KNO3,increase the H2 Pressure to where you get at least 270 H2 molecules per Oxygen Atom. From this you can probably calculate the useful life of the Tungsten filament to within a couple of hours at a given temperature. The light bulb manufacturers do this every day. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 21:21:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07597; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:16:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:16:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:16:31 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Please cease crossposts In-Reply-To: <34BD8BF4.310E earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UNBGg.0.cs1.qqklq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Rich Murray wrote: > Bill Beaty, Oh my God! You're absolutely right. I plumb forgot all > about editting any messages carefully for any hints of flaming before > crossposting to Vortex-L! I apologize. Partly, I was lazy about doing > the editing. Partly, I was taking sides. Rich, your manually-posted messages really are a full-blown discussion forum, and one that I think could be beneficial. SPF is unmoderated and nasty, and there are no other CF-only email lists as far as I know. The vortex-L rule against crossposts was made mostly to limit the confusion caused by invisible responses to one list server with occasional crossposts to the other. Another irritant was the doubled messages we all receive. I agree that there is yet another reason to expand the rule: problems arise from differing sets of rules between two forums, and from antagonistic belief systems between two subscriberships. I don't intend to prevent people from OCCASIONALLY posting interesting tidbits from other sources, therefor a total ban on crossposts is detrimental. But continual crossposts are just not working out. So, please remove vortex-L from the "TO:" line of your manually-operated CF discussion group. Also, please do not forward constant messages to vortex-L from non-subscribers. Occasional messages are OK (like once or twice a month.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You might consider looking for a host system with listserver software to ease your personal labor. In essence you are maintaining the "CF-L" discussion group, so why not make it official? With fairly rapid message turnaround I'm sure your subscribership and message traffic would grow. An email feature: if anyone on Rich's list would rather not see the huge "To:" line of fellow subscribers' email addresses, Rich could move that list of addresses to the "Bcc:" line of the message header. "Blind cc" allows you to post to multiple recipients without those addresses appearing in the outgoing message. Most email programs have this feature, although it might not be obvious, and would be hidden in some "expanded headers" menu somewhere. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 21:47:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17029; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:34:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:34:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BEF151.394A interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:34:09 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science References: <01bd2229$f8433700$0683410c default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qo0Rd2.0.z94.z5llq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Get Rid of the Damn Oxygen or hang it up! I hate it when Fred minces words! Hey, Scott, what kind of hydrogen do you use? Is it from the normal 2000 psi type tanks? If so, how is it compressed? The compression may involve exposure to H2O. I remember in the old days at NASA we had to worry about N2 being "water pumped" or not. The best source for the H2 would be from cryogenic boiloff but I do not know the spects on bottled H2 gas. Have you checked your H2 for moisture? Perhaps a good dryer would help if that's a problem. A good dryer, Fred....? Just a thought> Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 21:51:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19023; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:48:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:48:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980115234744.00833140 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:47:44 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science In-Reply-To: <01bd2231$456300e0$0683410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ry3y53.0.9f4.iIllq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:46 PM 1/15/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Get Rid of the Damn Oxygen or hang it up! OK, I'm hard-headed. >If you want to stay with the KNO3,increase >the H2 Pressure to where you get at least 270 >H2 molecules per Oxygen Atom. Hmmmm. To first order, I'm not decomposing the KNO3 anymore. I put it in a cooler place in the chamber and I've weighed it each time the chamber comes apart and it hasn't lost even 0.01 grams yet (...but maybe that's still enuf?). My outgassing procedure was so successful that the chamber pressure does NOT rise anymore when I operate the filament in the hydrogen atmosphere. In fact it definitely declines slightly but steadily while the filament is operating...as if the H was being consumed in the reaction. I wonder if I should try it without the KNO3 aqain using my latest bakeout protocol to see if that fixes the filament erosion problem...? Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 21:55:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19529; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:52:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:52:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980115235151.0084ab20 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:51:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science In-Reply-To: <34BEF151.394A interlaced.net> References: <01bd2229$f8433700$0683410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bo1qm1.0._m4.ZMllq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:34 AM 1/16/98 -0500, Frank S wrote: >Hey, Scott, what kind of hydrogen do you use? Is it from the normal >2000 psi type tanks? Well, it comes from one of those tanks BUT it passes through a Pd/Ag membrane before entering the chamber. This "hydrogen purifier" eliminates all other gases . The contaminants that enter the chamber are the molecules clinging to the walls of the piping on the clean side of the purifier. Should be in the ppb range of total contaminants. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 15 23:56:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00226; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:50:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:50:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116024837.006a7d24 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:48:37 +0000 To: Scott Little From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Little to teach calorimetry Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980115145411.00a77550 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NeQMd2.0.S3.K5nlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:54 PM 1/15/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >"BTW, I am co-hosting a workshop on calorimetry at ICCF-7." Congratulations. First, what are planning to teach about calorimetry? Understand you are bringing hardware up for your workshop; which? Second: No doubt despite this, we will continue to hear false, and sometimes silly, dysinformation about how skeptics are purportedly not invited to, or welcome at, cold fusion meetings. Mitchell Swartz ======================================================= "Furnished as all Europe now is with Academies of Science, with nice instruments and the spirit of experiment, the progress of human knowledge will be rapid and discoveries made of which we have at present no conception. I begin to be almost sorry I was born so soon, since I cannot have the happiness of knowing what will be known a hundred years hence." Benjamin Franklin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 00:20:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05626; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:16:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:16:45 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:15:54 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Strange rock & capacitor behavior Resent-Message-ID: <"lIFJs3.0.lN1.eTnlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Gnorts - I've got some foil taped over a rock right now, about 6" x 8" x 1.5" in size. The rock is a piece of densely layered volcanic ash from the side of Koko Head, the big cinder cone in this picture: http://www.aloha.net/~hknb-1/html/tour.htm (my house is in the picture somewhere near the left by the base of the mountain) This rock is what a metal detector user calls a "hot" rock. They blast your ear when you get near them like they were beer cans or something. I never thought about why they were "hot" before - just assumed it was minerals, but maybe it's because they make so much voltage! I've left a megohm across it, and the voltage has been hovering at around 15mv or so on the average, but the thing sometimes meanders around by a few millivolts while I sit there watching it. The capacitors never did anything like that, and with the spacing of the foil 'plates' on this rock, it's not even really much of a capacitor at all, just a clump of piezoelectric-dielectric with who-knows-what going on inside it. Why should there be a distinct voltage differential across it at all? How thin could it be sliced and still be hard to drain with a megohm resistor? Would different thickness matter, as in resonance to certain wavelengths? Would shape focus or otherwise manipulate the charge appearing at one point or another? All the caps up to and including the 4700uF I measured all run down fast with that much resistance across them. Not the rock. Like TTB said, it's more of a 'battery' than a capacitor. But at around .015 microamps, I think Energizer Bunny is safe for now. If I wrapped that entire volcano with Reynolds Wrap, I might be able to get an entire amp at 120v out of it. The trick seems to be to measure variations in capacitance over time. The dielectric tide that shifts all the boats together is the signal I want to see. I'll watch this rock for a bit before trying something with it like setting up auto recording or amps. It makes caps look pretty boring by comparison. Even TTB's graphs show the difference between rocks and caps, with real rocks looking *much* more lively. Maybe the piezo quality amplifying the signals. If I put the rock on the scope (no op amp or anything), I see the 60hz interference as a wide wavy stripe carring all the RF junk on it as the width of the line. As I continue to watch the trace, the whole thing will jitter and drift about slightly, even after the scope's well warmed up. Whenever I've seen this before, I've always just assumed it was simply something internal to the scope. Probably all it really is, but I'm not quite so certain now. It seems to correspond with the more integrating and slow-to-respond readings on the DMM while it's happening. One quick question: where do you get conductive paint? Not found in Mouser and such. I know jewelers/electroplaters use it to coat non-conductive items before plating. (Remember all those 'parsley' rings from the 80's? Your mom still has one.) Anybody have a jeweler's supply catalog? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 00:54:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08933; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:50:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:50:20 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:50:58 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AIMJJ2.0.VB2.Aznlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jim, >I think you have correctly focused on the question of the direction of >information flow in the cyclinder with piston at one end and a valve at the >other end, as the rest of the mechanism is not directly relevant. I never said that the rest of the mechanism was not directly relevant. I asked you a question . It was : Within the cylinder , which direction(s) do you assume that a unit of information (about air presssure) is travelling, in that it is subject to a time " delay" factor that also has a unidirectional meaning along a time line (past to future). (1) valve to Mass end (2) Mass to valve end (3) Both directions concurrently (4) None of the above (5) I Don't Know Is there within the cylinder an absolute ordering in a time like direction of "cause" (transmit) and "effect" (rcv) ? [A] Yes [B] No [C] I Don't Know I don't need a monograph here , Horace . If you don't know , it doesn't matter . There are lots of things I don't know . Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 02:11:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14149; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:04:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:04:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:06:53 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations Resent-Message-ID: <"VrCbY2.0.zS3.Y2plq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:50 AM 1/16/98, Jim Ostrowski wrote: >>Jim, > >>I think you have correctly focused on the question of the direction of >>information flow in the cyclinder with piston at one end and a valve at the >>other end, as the rest of the mechanism is not directly relevant. > > I never said that the rest of the mechanism was not directly relevant. Sorry, I got the impression you were focusing on the cylinder, valve and piston, which I think is the right place to focus attention. I think the other parts are not relevant to understanding the main issue, which is communication of the valve status to the piston. > > I asked you a question . > > It was : > > Within the cylinder , which direction(s) do you assume that a unit of > information (about air presssure) is travelling, in that it is subject > to a time " delay" factor that also has a unidirectional meaning along > a time line (past to future). > > (1) valve to Mass end > (2) Mass to valve end > (3) Both directions concurrently > (4) None of the above > (5) I Don't Know (3) Pressure at each point is a function of every other point in the cylinder with time lag based on distance. > > Is there within the cylinder an absolute ordering in a time like > direction of "cause" (transmit) and "effect" (rcv) ? > > [A] Yes > [B] No > [C] I Don't Know [A] > > I don't need a monograph here , Horace . If you don't know , it doesn't > matter . There are lots of things I don't know . > > Jim O. You seem to be spending a lot of time on FTL system design based on something that seems nonsensical to me. If true that it is nonsensical, I though it would be worth some of my time to explain in detail why. I hoped it would be more effective than a lot of out of context questions or remarks and protracted nonsensical debate, something that is much more appropriate or normal to the freenrg list (which is why I no longer subscribe there.) This is not to say FTL communications is not possible. On the contrary, I feel it most likely is possible and probably in some form will be implemented. It is meant to say an attempt to even do FTS commmunications with your piston model, or the string, appears destined to failure for the reasons I think I have fully explained. I suspect nothing but experimentation will convince you one way or the other, and there is much to be said for that, so encourage you to experiment. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 04:21:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA31558; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:13:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:13:48 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 05:09:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2277$a1f9d7c0$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"c5MhK3.0.-i7.wxqlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 10:40 PM Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Frank S. wrote: > >Hey, Scott, what kind of hydrogen do you use? Is it from the normal >2000 psi type tanks? If so, how is it compressed? The compression >may involve exposure to H2O. I remember in the old days at NASA we >had to worry about N2 being "water pumped" or not. The best source >for the H2 would be from cryogenic boiloff but I do not know the spects >on bottled H2 gas. Have you checked your H2 for moisture? Perhaps >a good dryer would help if that's a problem. A good dryer, Fred....? A Very Good Point, Frank. Sparging the H2 through H2SO4 is one way. Lithium Chloride,Ethylene Glycol,Desiccants like silica gel, or the montmorillonite clays etc. But, once a small amount of H2O gets in the system the water cycle: 2 H2O + W ----> 2 H2 + WO2, the WO2 Gets on the cooler parts and reacts with the H2: 2 H2 + WO2 ----> 2 H2O + W all over the cooler parts and the cycle is completed when this 2 H2O hits the hot filament again forming 2 H2 + WO2 and on and on literally transporting the tungsten from the filament to the cooler parts of the chamber. An Inefficient but Effective "CVD" transport means, probably enhanced with a potassium catalyst. The other choice is to getter it with Mg or Al. Regards, Frederick >Just a thought> > >Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 04:35:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00522; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:29:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:29:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199801161229.MAA23544 mail.iol.ie> Reply-To: < iol.ie> From: "Noel Whitney" To: Subject: overload Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:24:39 -0000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e0UnD.0.48.rArlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A HELP HELP i,m drowning , can any one tell me ( Simply) how to put some form of censor on my incoming mail from the group? . Im getting some 1200 messages per 3 /4 day period and cannot cope with it ??. Can I specify the areas I am interested in ??. rgds Noel Whitney PS - Site adresses given by Gerry Decker Jan13 -98) and John Steck Jan 13 -98) for "Garrett" are not coming up thru my server , are they correct ??. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 04:39:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25319; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:30:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:30:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 05:25:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2279$ca6efb20$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"v4PF12.0.XB6.MBrlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Then again there is always platinum wire that can be run in H2 & O2 up to it's melting point of 2045 K. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 05:59:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12546; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 05:55:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 05:55:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5 the trenches of science Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:51:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2285$e3221ba0$0683410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"NW5W_2.0.t33.bRslq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An iteration: Assume 0.01 grams of KNO3 "evaporates" from the vial and is in the 100 cm^3 cell void volume when hydrogen is admitted. 0.01/101*1.66E-24 = 5.96E19 KNO3 molecules or about 5.6E17 molecules of KNO3/cm^3. Then about 2/760*2.69E19 = 7E16 molecules/cm^3 of H2 are bled in to bring the pressure to 2 torr. The number of molecules/cm^2*second striking the filament: 0.25*(N/V)*v 0.25*6.3E16* 6.3E17*(kT/.5M)^1/2 ~= 5E20 molecules are striking a cm^2 of the filament each second oxidizing it to WOx which boils off depositing on the cell parts. How long will it last if 5E20 W atoms (about 0.15 grams) are removed as WOx each second? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 06:07:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05588; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:03:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:03:24 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34BF5868.40F40DCA mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:54:00 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic(?): Could planets explode? References: <34BEA4B9.1A27DAC4 verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2287DE7441F262EC7E1F69E6" Resent-Message-ID: <"ipsPC3.0.EN1.gYslq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2287DE7441F262EC7E1F69E6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hamdi Ucar wrote: Hi, After reading the report of Tom Van Flandern on Exploded Planets Hypothesis (EPH) (see my previous posting) which claim planet explosions are not so uncommon to our solar system, ... Could a planet explode as a result of its internal dynamics? ... hamdi ucar Hi Hamdi, I'm attaching a file because it illustrates the pitfalls of design equations, and because of my interest in the following passage from that file: "This Bode-factor is a New Natural Constant, like pi or e or Euler's constant, which is INDEPENDENT of the Newton-Cavendish parameter G or the ratios of the masses of the small bodies to that of the central body! ..." Jack Smith --------------2287DE7441F262EC7E1F69E6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" ... the JPL paper referenced by Tom Van Flandern ... Assume the paper concerned an 8-body problem. If there was formerly (within past 5,000 years) a planet in the asteroid belt which exploded, then the JPL result establishes nothing. What was put in the asteroid belt in the JPL work? Nothing, I'll bet! But Michael Ovenden's work using the "Principle of Least Interaction-Action" (anticipated by me in print by many years, as acknowledged in print by Ovenden in one of his last papers, & as also mentioned by Archie Roy in the second & third Editions of his "Orbital Motion" book (of which the final two pages of his chapter on Stability of the Solar System consist of [with specific acknowledgement to Bass] near-verbatim quotes out of my papers in Pensee re Velikovsky), the Solar System is NOT near a Resonant Equilibrium defined by that conjectured [by Ovenden] "principle" unless there WAS in the past a planet where we now see only Asteroids. (Ovenden's time-scale for computing "when" is partly heuristic & debatable.) Secondly, unless the 8-body problem studied happened to have Orbital Stability (highly unlikely!) then the claimed results flatly CONTRADICT rigorously proved results in Mathematical Celestial Mechanics, specifically the KAM theory. Most experts think the Kolmogorov-Arnold-Moser theory is the biggest advance in Celestial Mechanics since Poincare introduced qualitative methods in the late nineteenth century. But, as exposited by (former Princeton math faculty member) and recognized Chaos expert Ralph Abraham, in his fascinating book "Chaos, Gaia, Eros," the typical situation in n-body problems is that there are what Poincare called "wild motions" which are [in 8 X 6 = 48-dimensional State Space] _arbitrarily close_ to periodic/multiply-periodic/almost-periodic sedately-repititous motions. [Recall the definition of "chaos:" it was discovered that many differential equations of the evolution in time of natural phenomena, like weather or planetary motion, are so incredibly sensitive to minute changes in the initial conditions or boundary conditions that "a butterfly flapping its wings in South America can cause a tornado in North America." Jack Wisdom has published papers showing chaos in planetary motion.] The JPL work, which integrated the 48 by 48 matrix solution of the Equations of Variation of the 8-body problem along with the Newtonian Equations of motion simply creates a 48-dimensional "tube" which runs from a 48-dimensional "ball" around the assumed present state of the bodies and goes backwards in time for 5,000 years to another 48-dimensional "ball" around the retro-computed state 5,000 years ago, and the "tube" will have a 47-dimensional boundary curvilinear "cylinder" into which no other state-space paths can penetrate. So (omitting the highly unlikely case of Orbital Stability) there must be "wild motions" which penetrate the tube and come arbitrarily close to the central state-space orbit. Where are they? Unless their time-scale of divergence is the "millions of years" favored by Dynamical Astronomers (which former President of the Am. Astr'l Soc. E.W. Brown explicitly admitted in the 1930's is a mere "prejudice" [because, as demonstrated in the 1950's in his book by W.M Smart, "reader" in Dynamical Astronomy at the U of Glasgow, the usual Perturbation Equations cannot be trusted for more than 150 years at a time]) then the JPL work missed the most striking feature of the situation! I once spoke on the phone with Jack Wisdom, supposedly the world-champion of Retrocalculation (with special-purpose machines) and challenged him to send me his papers and I would point out by page and line a fatal flaw; he declined. He said that "tidal forces" are "TOO SMALL" to have any noticeable effect which is a mere prejudice that completely ignores the phonomenon of Resonance. In nuclear physics, the Breit-Wigner formula shows that resonance is so important that a mere change of velocity in the _hundredth_ decimal place can cause the capture cross-section to enlarge by a FACTOR of 10^10!!! Likewise my (unpublished) work shows that Resonance has a similarly unsuspected importance in mathematically rigorous Celestial Mechanics. ... By starting in the 3-body problem with two small point-particle masses in coplanar concentric orbits around a massive central body (as the two masses approach zero, giving what Poincare called "generating solutions") I have proved rigorously that unless the initial radii of the generating solutions have the ratio Bode-factor = 1/[(3/2)^{2/3} - 1 ]^(1/2) = 1.794980... then the resonances between the inner orbit and the outer orbit will be mutually destabilizing!!! (This Bode-factor is a New Natural Constant, like pi or e or Euler's constant, which is INDEPENDENT of the Newton-Cavendish parameter G or the ratios of the masses of the small bodies to that of the central body!) But my 1995 New Natural Constant agrees to _FOUR_ decimal places with a best-fitting (in sense of Gaussian least squares) Bode factor of 1.795 to Sun plus all 9 planets [11 bodies including Ovenden's Aztex] derived by Prof. C.D. Johnson's doctoral student S. Addington in 1992 (long before I had a rigorous theory). Was the JPL result sufficiently sensitive to have found something as fundamental as my New Natural Constant? This has been a mystery to dynamical astronomers since Titius & Bode some 230 years ago, but my new _rigorous_ results regarding the 3-body problem appears to "explain" it. ... that all 8 bodies have been in the present orbits for 5,000 years ... is a flawed result (based on finite-word-length digital computers rather than infinite precision pure math) that omitted many physically important effects (Tidal Forces, Resonance) and was NOT based on a rigorous Numerical Analysis of what difference there could be between the digital computer's finite-precision arithmetical APPROXIMATION and mathematically rigorous Newtonian point-particle/flexible-body dynamics. As E.W. Brown said in his Presidential Address "In my field [Dynamical Astronomy] many results have obtained currency" which are mere prejudices rather than well-established probabilities. I studied Celestial Mechanics under most of the world's acknowledged masters of rigorous nonlinear ordinary differential equations (D.C. Lewis, Carl Ludwig Siegel, Aurel Wintner, Philip Hartman, and Solomon Lefschetz), and before I go back to the aerospace industry for the next 6 years I am going to mail out 20 copies of my "Dynamical Derivation of Bode's Law" to those active in the field and challenge them to find a mathematical error in my derivation of a New Natural Constant. If they cannot, then they will have to admit that my intuitions & prejudices may be just as likely as theirs to be correct, and I have never seen any result which was "intellectually coercive" in ruling out planetary near-collisions in historical times. (The initial conditions required may be so sensitive that variation in the thousandth decimal place would not lead to the presently-observed configuration, but I am dead-sure that God can play billiards better than anybody at JPL!) ... I am including in my paper the following Acknowledgment: ... "For primary encouragement, which led to my first foray [39] into this subject, and for help in generation of Table 1 by extensive calculations, I am deeply indebted to Dr. C.D. Johnson and to his former student Dr. Stuart Addington. "Also I am indebted to Dr. Miklos Farkas [15], to Dr. John E. Chambers [33], and to Dr. Philip Morrison [32], for their interest and for valuable literature references." ..., Have you read P. Morrison's "Doing the Poincare Shuffle," in Scientific American, January, 1997 (based on work by Rasio & Ford at MIT, Science, 8 Nov. 1996, pp. 954-956)? Except for their time-scale (millions of years rather than my open-mindedness about possible thousands of years) what they are saying is _qualitatively_ exactly what I have been saying ... Au Revoir (for 6 years). [New snail-mail address below.] Bob Bass Robert W. Bass [until January 28, 1998:] P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739 Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213; e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com AFTER FEBRUARY 2, 1998: Dr. Robert W. Bass 45960 Indian Way (Apt. 612) Lexington Park, MD 20653 --------------2287DE7441F262EC7E1F69E6-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 06:06:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13844; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:02:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:02:25 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <533509a9.34bf685e aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:02:04 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: overload Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"7Y8Gd1.0.9O3.mXslq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I to am having the same problem. I delete half of the stuff before I read it. We need titles like...experiment....theory...aether theroy....news...etc... I usually only read all mail from someone doing an experiment like Scott Little is doing now. I'm working on a C++ program that will scan downloaded mail. I will block all mail with keywords such as sex.. $$$... or any other spam related mail. It can also limit any vortex members mail to one e-mail/day. I'm taking C++ next term... I hope to do this as a class progect. If and when I get it done I will post it. AOL will download email into a file. My program will operate on this file. Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 06:19:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07811; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:17:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:17:34 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34BF5BBD.3D51D483 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:08:13 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science References: <3.0.1.32.19980115180715.00a77de8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"onzdR2.0.wv1.wlslq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: ... It's starting to look like a direct reaction between the W and the H. Hi Scott, Nice quiz; it's a relief from the tension. Why are you using a tungsten filament? Unless you have knowledge of what BLP is actually doing, you are probably better off picking a filament from the stainless family. How about nichrome wire? It's widely available; and it would make your experiment more easily reproducible by others if you hit paydirt. You could set up an array of stainless filaments. Your might serendipitously discover some important activation-energy- lowering effects. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 07:08:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13190; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:03:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:03:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:02:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Strange rock & capacitor behavior Resent-Message-ID: <"ayQfu2.0.0E3.KRtlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >One quick question: where do you get conductive paint? Not found in Mouser >and such. I know jewelers/electroplaters use it to coat non-conductive stewart-macdonald (800-848-2273) sells conductive paint for shielding the insides of guitar bodies (item #29), but it costs a fortune ($25.74 for a half-pint). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 07:50:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03500; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:42:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:42:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:42:23 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Vortex-L Subject: Re: Strange rock & capacitor behavior In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8M00F3.0.Ws.b_tlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > One quick question: where do you get conductive paint? Not found in Mouser > and such. I know jewelers/electroplaters use it to coat non-conductive > items before plating. (Remember all those 'parsley' rings from the 80's? > Your mom still has one.) Anybody have a jeweler's supply catalog? Search the www? I immediately found "EFS super-brite conductive paint". It's an electroplating supplier. Also search "silver paint" and "conductive epoxy." Here's a possible test for your rock. Monitor the output voltage, then put it in a sealed box with a large amount of silica gel dessicant. If the effect is from conventional electrochemistry, removing the moisture should kill the effect, no? This test would probably work faster if you could break off a small chunk. Maybe amplify the DC output to make it more easily measurable. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 07:57:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05293; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:53:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:53:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:53:05 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: Vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: overload In-Reply-To: <199801161229.MAA23544 mail.iol.ie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"VNKHL3.0.XI1.d9ulq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Noel Whitney wrote: > HELP HELP i,m drowning , can any one tell me ( Simply) how to put some form > of censor on my incoming mail from the group? The first step is to set up automatic folders in your email program, so everything from vortex-L goes into its own inbox. If vortex-L messages came to my main inbox, I'd never have the time to sort them out from other stuff! Once vortex-L is sorted out, its easy to zip through and delete messages with uninteresting subject headings. A second possibility: subscribe to vortex-digest instead of vortex-L. For those who lack a current copy, below is the vortex-L "welcome" message. Check out the part about "digest." (Hint: create a mail folder called "lists", and save this and other "welcome" messages there. That way you'll always have a copy of the instructions from any list server you join.) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L KEEP A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE IN A SAFE PLACE. IT CONTAINS INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE VORTEX-L DISCUSSION GROUP. ***************************************************************************** WELCOME TO VORTEX-L ***************************************************************************** WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES BELOW! The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Please see the rules below. This is a public, lightly-moderated list. Interested parties are welcome to subscribe. PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING. There is no charge, but donations towards expenses are accepted (see rules below for suggested donation.) Admin addr: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Mail addr: vortex-L eskimo.com Webpage: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html Moderator: billb eskimo.com William J. Beaty 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 206-781-3320 USA ************************************************************************* Vortex-L subscription instructions: To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. No quotes around "subscribe," of course. You will get an automatic greeting message in response. Once subscribed, send your email to vortex-L eskimo.com. Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortex-L-request eskimo.com with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line. Vortex-L digest mode: If you prefer "digest" mode messages, collections of messages up to 40K total or every 2 days, then subscribe to the vortex-digest instead of to vortex-L. Send a blank message to: vortex-digest-request eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. Vortex-L forwards each received message within minutes or hours of receipt. Vortex-digest collects messages, then sends them as single large chunks. Vortex-L and Vortex-digest are two separate lists. It is possible to subscribe to one or the other, or both. Help: To obtain a copy of this file, send a blank email with the word "help" in the subject line. Send it to vortex-L-request eskimo.com Address Changes: If your email address changes, you can email billb eskimo.com to fix things. Or, you can simply send a "subscribe" command while using your new account. When your old account is turned off, the vortex-L bounce detector will unsubscribe it. If you still have access to the older account address, you can unsubscribe yourself using that address. ************************************************************************* WARNING: THE "UNSUBSCRIBER" MIGHT GET YOU Vortex-L software contains a mechanism which might automatically unsubscribe you. This will happen if your email address starts bouncing all vortex-L email for several days. This is done in order to stop possible email-loops, and to prevent the eskimo.com software from being overwhelmed by email-bounce warning messages. When the Unsubscriber takes you off, it sends you a message explaining its action. Unfortunately this message will usually bounce also. From your viewpoint the message traffic from Vortex-L will suddenly cease. If the email server on your internet service has a habit of overloading or crashing for several days at at time, you will probably encounter the Unsubscriber. If vortex-L traffic seems to suddenly stop, or if your messages to the group are returned with warnings that you are not subscribed, simply resubscribe to Vortex-L. Missed messages are available as textfiles on the Vortex-L webpage. ************************************************************************** Vortex-L Rules: 1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses. If you cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway. If you would like to give more, please do! Direct your check to the moderator, address above. Any help you can give is sincerely appreciated. 2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open, hop on board! Help us test "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away. (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on CLOSEMINDED SCIENCE page.) 3. Small email files please. The limit is set to 40K right now, those exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty. If you wish to start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL IMMEDIATELY. Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for received email. Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing. 4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the ENTIRE message in your reply. Always edit it a bit and delete something. The more you delete, the less traffic overload. The entire message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point reply to many parts of a message. Many vortex users must pay by the kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant messages are irritating and expensive. So, when including a quoted message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better. 5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC line of your messages to vortex-L. In the past this has caused thread leakage between different list and redundant messages as replies from subscribers go to both lists. It's OK to manually forward mail from other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line has only vortex-L and no other list. 6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated. While not illegal yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the Unwritten Rules of the Internet. Anyone who spams vortex-L with junkmail will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team. ;) Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is acceptable. - Bill B. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 08:10:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06820; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:01:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:01:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:01:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: PART I Interview with Mills (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yld282.0.Og1.7Hulq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's something found by Peter Glueck ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From: Mark Graffis <ab758 virgin.usvi.net> Date: 1998/01/09 Message-ID: <695s8t$vca$1 news.missouri.edu> Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive (Excerpted for Radio). FOUR INTERVIEWS WITH DR. RANDELL MILLS ON NEW ENERGY, NEW PHYSICS by Art Rosenblum, Aquarian Research Foundation, Philadelphia. artr juno.com, 215-849-1259 or 215-849-3237 day/eve. INTRODUCTION For Radio For Peace International Abundant, clean, safe energy has been a goal of humanity for centuries. Finally dawns a new millennium and with it a positive solution to this problem. For decades, scientists have falsely assumed that hydrogen (which burns to form water vapor) has no additional energy to give us except by burning. Hydrogen is a major component of oil and gas. Dr. Randell Mills, a Harvard medical doctor with training in physics and engineering, holding over a dozen patents, has discovered that hydrogen atoms can also release a tremendous amount of energy without burning. This happens safely in a small container without any radiation or pollution. The cost will be lower by far than solar or wind energy and is a real solution to our global warming crisis, ending world dependence on fossil fuels. This new system is suitable not only for vehicles of all kinds but also for every village in the world to have its own electric power to pump and purify water, provide light, heat and energy for electronic educational systems that could bring together all the peoples of the world, and water as a source of hydrogen is the only fuel required. Here are excerpts from four interviews with Dr. Mills, but the full text (in English) of these interviews is also available for people with scientific background. In addition, they can see Dr. Mills' own web site and communicate with his organization directly at www.blacklightpower.com where he lists a book in which all the information on these new discoveries are published. The January issue of Infinite Energy Magazine will also carry the full text as well as Dr. Mills' patent and biographical information. For information write: Infinite Energy Magazine, P.O. Box 2816, Concord, New Hampshire 03302 U.S.A. Hydrogen is the simplest atom; one electron revolving around one proton. Imagine an atom of hydrogen enlarged so much that the proton is as big as a golf ball and you'd find the circling electron three hundred yards away ! Dr. Mills' amazing discovery is that hydrogen's electron orbit can collapse, becoming a much smaller circle. When this happens, a tremendous amount of energy is released and the new atoms (which he's dubbed "hydrinos") form an inert gas that does not burn to make water or combine with any other atoms except one other hydrino. The energy released in this safe process is 1,000 times greater than we use to obtain hydrogen from water. A common element, potassium is a catalyst in the process. A catalyst makes a change possible but is not changed itself and so is not used up. Here are excerpts of interviews by Art Rosenblum with Dr. Randell Mills: AR: Dr Mills, this is Art Rosenblum, in Philadelphia. I'm with the Aquarian Research Foundation. We've been doing research on the future of the planet since 1970, a small, tax exempt nonprofit, and I'm extremely interested in your breakthroughs in energy. RM: OK. In very layman's terms, we're catalyzing hydrogen to go to a lower energy state. It's stable, and it explains an enormous number of things that physicists haven't been able to describe or reconcile . It came about from when I was working at MIT. We have people very eager to commercialize this and we've been able to make independent validated energy cells that produce a thousand times the energy of burning hydrogen. AR: I see. Now what happens with the hydrinos? They, from what I read, go off into space but would they also combine with oxygen and form water? RM: No, they can't burn. It turns out there's a long-standing mystery about the sun. Scientists don't know why the gases around the sun are two million degrees and the surface is only six thousand. Usually heat flows from a hot body to a cold body, if the energy is being produced in the core of the sun, how is the gas around the sun hotter? Well, it turns out that the sun has a very, very large number of spectral lines that can't be identified and they correspond to the energy transitions of this new lower energy hydrogen. And the power from the intensity of those lines matches the amount of power that can't be explained by nuclear reactions occurring in the sun. And the other thing that is a very big problem in astrophysics is, that if you look at the Milky Way galaxy, it's rotating a lot faster than it can possibly rotate and be stable, it should fly apart because there's not enough gravity to hold it together and that's why they propose some other, unknown, element holding the galaxy together and they call it dark matter. I don't know whether you have heard that. AR: I've heard it, yes. RM: And it could represent up to 95% of the mass of the universe. It turns out that scientists have looked at the extreme UV region of the spectrum that's much higher energy than visible light, and every one of the spectral lines in order of energy for these lower energy transitions of hydrogen appear in that spectrum. In fact, this lower energy hydrogen is this missing mass, this dark matter. AR: Aha. RM: And that shouldn't be of surprise, because most of the visible matter, about 95% of the visible matter is, in fact, hydrogen. So, it turns out that the electric field between the proton and the electron has a lot of energy stored in it. AR: OK. Tell me one simple thing. Say the world was producing a tremendous amount of power this way, all over the world, there would be this huge number of hydrinos going off. What would be the effect of that? RM: Actually, it's very, very little because there's very, very little mass balance because, in other words, low mass flow because you get a tremendous amount of energy. I mean we have independently validated now a thousand times the energy of burning hydrogen, so you'd use very, very little material. I mean if you look at a car application. A two hundred horsepower car going 60 mph using this process will go a hundred thousand miles on a tank of water. AR: Aha. RM: With no pollution because what you form is a lower chemical energy form of molecular hydrogen that does not react. In fact, you can look at the spectrum of the sun and you can see the spectrum of this lower energy molecular hydrogen, and it's stable at 2 million degrees. It won't even react or fall apart at 2 million degrees. AR: I see. RM: It's lighter than air so it goes out into space. And if you are worried about a gas, it's non reactive, I mean, you can breathe helium, you can breathe argon, you can breathe neon. Every time you breathe, 80% of the air you are breathing is nitrogen that doesn't react with anything in your body. AR: Exactly. RM: This is much more stable than nitrogen. Much, much more stable. In fact, you couldn't even keep it in your body, you couldn't even keep it in the atmosphere, it would just diffuse out into space because it's very, very light and it travels through containers very easily. AR: Could it be kept in balloons? RM: Well it would be very difficult, you could probably keep it in a mylar balloon for some period of time but it would be difficult. AR: I see. So much more difficult than ordinary hydrogen? RM: Oh, much more difficult to store than normal hydrogen. AR: You don't think it would have an effect on the ionosphere? RM: If anything, it would absorb cosmic rays, which would be a good thing and it would revert back to normal hydrogen which, again, is lighter than air and will end up in space anyhow. So if anything it would be a preventative, you know, it would be like replenishing the ozone layer: it would have some screening effect. But there would be so little of it would be negligible. It would have no impact on anything. AR: Well it sounds extremely interesting. Do you have fuel cells at your laboratory presently producing, or capable of producing energy from, say, hydrogen or water? RM: We have cells running here that produced a thousand times the energy of burning hydrogen running now. We are doing some tests with Atlantic Electric and, we're not unreasonable about showing that, but - there's independent validation reports that we've put out on the web if you needed some validation of it. So, and there's a summary of reports from MIT Lincoln Labs, Idaho National Engineering Lab, Atomic Energy Canada, Limited, Lehigh University, Brookhaven National Labs, NASA, Lewis, a whole bunch of labs are on the Net if you needed other validation. AR: Why do you think that this information is not published in daily papers and the New York Times? RM: Oh, it will be. We've kept it all very secret while we worked it out. Dr. Mills then told us how the energy can be produced in a vacuum in a one gallon stainless steel container. An accident to the container would simply stop the energy production. RM: Now it doesn't take a genius to figure out if you're getting a thousand times burning you can use a fraction of the electrical output to make the hydrogen. AR: Of course. RM: And you're running very low pressures 100 millitorrs so it's safe and reliable, if you punched a hole in it, it would just suck air in and shut it down immediately. But because it's very low pressure you can control the hydrogen gas and the catalyst pressures and you can get very, very exquisite control on it. The mass balance is very, very low because of the tremendous amount of energy per atom and the product is a lower energy chemical form of hydrogen that doesn't burn, that's lighter than air. So it's very environmentally friendly and it turns out that the capital cost is very low for the equipment also. And you can use existing power conversion equipment, because it runs at very very high power densities and very, very high temperature. So it's like the ultimate power source. AR: Right. Well, it sounds extremely interesting and has a lot to do with the future of the planet as I see it, because a major part of our planetary problems is fighting over oil. So how close are we to actually producing a fuel cell working with this system that would - RM: Yes, that's right, just call it a gas power cell, hydrogen power cell. How close are we? Well, the theory's all worked out, the validations are worked out, the lower energy hydrogen's been identified, that is a product, and we have power densities equivalent to many electrical power plants and running at temperatures comparable to many electrical power plants. And we're getting validated energy balance of a thousand times the energy of burning hydrogen. So we know the process works and now it's just the time it takes to retro-fit that into existing technology. We don't have to invent anything new, we're using vacuum furnaces and we're going to use external combustor gas turbines, so it's just a matter of retro-fitting it into existing technology. AR: And if this is so then, in the next few years, systems will be developed as you spoke of, that cars that can run on practically nothing for energy. Energy will be the cheapest thing in the world, not as cheap as water but that we won't have a big problem with it. RM: Fuel will be cheap. I wouldn't say energy would be, it's going to cost something because of capital equipment to create electricity or to create motive power from the fuel is still going to - it will vary. We have to convert thermal energy into either motor power or electrical power, and that requires a piece of hardware and we're using existing hardware, namely gas turbines and steam turbines which are reasonably expensive. Compared to the fuel that the vehicle or the fuel that a power plant would use, or the right kind of power plant, the fuel outweighs the cost of the capital equipment, but albeit capital equipment is still a major cost. AR: Yeah, but that can come down. How would you say it compares with solar energy? RM: Oh solar energy is very expensive because the capital equipment costs are so unbelievably high. So you understand the basic process. We're taking hydrogen and making another chemical. AR: Alright, now I don't know if anything is still secret if you are applying for a patent, presumably you reveal the secret, right? RM: Yes. AR: And so you've already got one in Australia, I understand? RM: Yes. AR: So the secret, there's no secret any more? RM: No secret. AR: How then do you convert the hydrogen at low pressure, and I don't know what temperature, to hydrinos and you've got the power. I know you have potassium as a catalyst but what exactly do you feed into the chamber that makes this happen? RM: Well we need atomic hydrogen. AR: Which means separate from molecular hydrogen? [ At normal temperatures, two hydrogen atoms combine to form a hydrogen molecule, but when enough heat is applied, the atoms separate and then they can give up their energy to the catalyst which gets so hot that the process continues by itself]. A hot filament could be used to start the process. Dr. Mills says: ] RM: Tungsten filament in a bulb will do it perfectly fine. The tungsten filament in a bulb is in a vacuum and if you introduce low pressure hydrogen in there, a certain fraction of the hydrogen in that bulb will be atomic hydrogen. AR: I got it. OK, and then what happens? RM: Then we take the potassium and you have to have it run very hot. So we run potassium ions, you need potassium plus ions - RM: You can think of it as a combustion chamber when you think of a gaseous reaction like inside the cylinder of a car, but this would be much lower pressure, and be very hot right after the ignition inside the cylinder, so you have vaporised catalyst, then hydrogen atoms that have formed because there's a refractory metal like a tungsten film and it's very hot, breaks the molecules into atoms, they contact the catalyst and by contacting the atoms with the catalyst, energy is transferred from the hydrogen to the potassium just as when you contact hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms you get combustion. Here if you contact potassium ions and hydrogen atoms you get hydrogen going to a lower energy state - AR: And the potassium getting hotter? RM: The potassium takes away part of the energy - Oh, it gets hotter in the sense that it goes to a higher energy state, gives off that energy to the system and returns back to potassium ions, so it serves as a catalyst. AR: In the vacuum, how does the hydrino then go off, or does it stay until you somehow take it out? [ Dr. Mills then explains that the size of an atom is the circle of electrons going around the nucleus, not the nucleus itself, and that the hydrinos are so small that they can go right through the spaces between the atoms of any other material. ] RM: Right through the container as if it's much smaller than helium and it'll go right through the container and out into space. RM: Just as if you had a balloon and if you fill it with helium after a while the gas will leak out of the balloon. Because the helium is small and it's neutrally charged so eventually it leaks out. AR: I get it, so the orbital size of a hydrino is much smaller than that of a hydrogen atom? RM: Half the size, yes. And then if you go to one third, it's one third the size, one fourth, the lower and lower you go in energy it gets to be a fractional size of normal hydrogen. AR: So the container that you have, the stainless steel container RM: You can use stainless steel, yes. You can use molybdenum, or tungsten or stainless steel. You have to run this at very high temperatures, so you need something that will run to high temperatures. Stainless steel is pretty good. AR: That's what aircraft exhaust systems are made of. RM: Oh, it would work for some of our cells, it would melt under the conditions that other of our cells work at. AR: And so, does it happen that the container heats up to temperatures like 3,000 degrees? RM: The container runs at - the ones we have run - we had center line of 2,000 degrees C and the outer stainless steel part of it was 850 degrees centigrade. With the one we're designing now, the container wall itself will be at 2,000 degrees. AR: I see. and then, that heat is taken off by - RM: Heat exchangers and then it can be used in a gas turbine. And the gas turbine can be used to turn a generator, or generate motor power. Standard conversion. AR: OK, if you've got heat, there are ways to produce electricity. RM: Yes, this is a cheap way of making heat. AR: You continue to feed in hydrogen and does all the hydrogen you feed in at a controlled rate, no doubt, change to hydrinos or just a fraction of it? RM: A pretty large percentage of it. AR: But the rest would tend to fill up the chamber, right? RM: No. What we feed in there - we've done batch studies where you put in hydrogen and leave it in there till the reaction stops. So all the hydrogen in that cell is eventually consumed to make hydrinos. AR: I see. And you just let the hydrinos go ... RM: They diffuse out eventually, yes. AR: Eventually, can the process run continuously? RM: It can run continuously, also. We've done that. Where you feed in new hydrogen. AR: Right. At a controlled rate, just as fast as it's needed? RM: Yes. So you have very low mass because you get a tremendous amount of energy per atom so you don't need very many atoms. AR: Right, I understand. Then the next step is just efficient use of the heat that's produced and engineers have worked at that for a long, long time. RM: That's correct, we are working on that now. And there's are a lot of very interesting technologies to which this lends itself. One of the things we're looking at, we're looking at a couple of scenarios, of course, there is retro-fit of central power plants where you just take an existing boiler and you just put in our gaseous reactor that converts hydrogen to lower energy hydrogen and generates power on a large scale and either turns a gas turbine or a steam turbine to make electricity. The other scenario is that we would look at distributive power, or we make maybe 1 megawatt units and we put the little power generators out at the locations where you have sub-stations today and they would generate power for, say, 200 homes or several businesses. AR: Assuming, water is available, does the water have to be specially pure? RM: No, any kind of water will do. As long as it's water that has hydrogen in it. AR: I lived 12 years in Paraguay and I've been in other countries, Cuba for instance, which is more advanced than Paraguay. RM: Yes, I'd say so, they're kind of having some economic problems right now, but you'd know more about that. AR: They had severe economic problems three or four years ago, they are pretty well over that. RM: That's good news. AR: It's great and everybody is educated. RM: That's a good point. AR: Everybody can read and they would jump on this energy system. RM: They're probably in need of energy, especially since the Russians kind of cut back on their supplies. AR: Right, they've been thinking of finishing this nuclear power plant that was started by the Russians RM: Probably don't have the technology. AR: They found some oil, but it's not the best quality. They do need energy and they have energy but nowhere near what they need and I don't know if you'd be, at what point, maybe not now, but at some point, you would be willing to allow Cuban scientists to come here and RM: Well, I'd have to look into that. I think there's some export restrictions still. AR: Oh yes, export you can't RM: On a scientific basis, I could talk to them. Export I think there's still restrictions. AR: I've got the Government restrictions here, I've got the Treasury Department stuff and there's huge loopholes, you know you could fly a Cessna through the loopholes. What's prohibited is doing business. Every other country can do business with Cuba but we can't. RM: So you could probably do business through the other companies in other countries. AR: If you are established with any other country you have no problem. But scientists, Cuban scientists can come here and learn everything and do the work there, but maybe not be able to pay you. That might be the problem. RM: Yes, I don't think we have problems with Cuba anyhow, I don't think they're PCT signatories. Have you got any more questions? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 08:13:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07243; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:03:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:03:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:02:58 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: PART II - Interview with Mills (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kpdDj1.0.1n1.tIulq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Second half... ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L AR: Yes, I have lots of questions. The thing that surprises me greatly is that the military of this country hasn't come down on you and said: "This is a military secret." Later I learned that Dr. Mills process is already patented in Australia, and since his book is also published, the invention cannot be taken as a "military secret". There is no secret anymore. RM: Well, I think it's still controversial, I think in time the military will see some applications, to it, but right now we aren't working with the military or contemplate it at any time in the near future, we're just working on developing it as a new civilian type of energy source, From a business perspective. AR: Right. And from what I understand, from what you've already told me, when the patent is published here, presumably anybody could do what you are doing? RM: That's correct. Under license they could. AR: But the information would be out there and if they chose to do it illegally you couldn't stop them except by suing them. RM: That's correct. AR: But, at the same time, it's clear that ultimately it will be possible for the people to have it, whether big corporations do or not? RM: Well, we're working on these two distributive power schemes. There'd be personal units. You'd have one for your home, you'd have one for business and office and the other one is clustered, what they call distributive power and that is when you have a unit, say at the sub-station, which may feed 20 businesses or 200 homes, this is the megawatt unit which will feed up to 200 homes. And then the other form of individualized power that I like the best, for the long term, is that an automobile, if it had a generator, it would generate about 100 kW electric and there are 10 million new vehicles made a year which would give you a thousand billion watts. Now the total electrical generating capacity of the United States is only 600 billion watts. So every year you have new cars coming off the assembly line, and when you park your vehicle you would plug the wire into the grid and it would generate 100kW electricity and you'd be paid for the electricity. AR: And what that means to me, and it would me, having lived in other countries is that one vehicle in a village could supply power for the whole village. RM: The whole village, that's correct. In fact, 100 kW is a lot. 100 kW could heat would be about 20 homes, American homes. AR: Then it means that you'd have a mobile power station and one could drive to every village in every country of the world. AR: One other question. Say you have a power plant in a car. How long will that power plant hold up, before the tungsten or the other parts deteriorate from the heat and have to be replaced? RM: Well, that's a good question. Those questions are things we have to answer. There aren't any moving parts, so it should be possible that that shouldn't be the weak link. Now, if you do look at the next weak link, the turbine, turbines of the air bearing kind, those mini-turbines, they will run a phenomenally long time. At least for motor power applications. Capstan, for example, is looking into putting turbines in to replace internal combustion engines using fossil fuel. And, those turbines should last a lifetime. Turbines are run for an extremely long time. Your next question was about electric motors. Well, electric motors are very, very resilient also. AR: My question is your generating system for producing the heat, how long will that hold up? RM: We don't see any problems with it being a weak link in the technology, so that's really good. AR: That answers my question. Stainless steel, for instance which is the cheapest that you've mentioned, could hold out a lifetime and not get burned out, corroded... RM: Well, we're working on that but we don't see any problems with that at the time being. AR: OK, so that's a developed field that would hold up? RM: And there's no moving parts in that. AR: I understand, there's no moving parts. RM: You have the heat exchanger, the vacuum vessel. Then we have the electrolyser but for the amount of hydrogen that would have to electrolyse for example a tank of water with a thousand times the energy of burning hydrogen. Which we are seeing in the lab now and we have that independently validated. A tank of water for a 200 hp automobile going 60 mph., that tank would take you 100,000 miles. [ By "electrolyser" Dr. Mills means a container in which an electric current is passed through water causing the water molecules to break apart and release the oxygen and hydrogen of which water is composed. It takes as much energy to separate hydrogen and oxygen as you can possibly get by burning the hydrogen to form water again, but since this new process gets far more energy from the hydrogen itself, only a tiny fraction of that energy is required to obtain the hydrogen from water.] RM: So the electrolyser doesn't look like that's going to be a weak link either, because it doesn't use very much hydrogen. AR: I'm interested in how airplanes would work on this? RM: Well, probably use a turbine engine, but you'd have to make a very high powered and very compact heat exchanger and you'd pull the air in, and the same way the gas turbine would work in the automobile you'd have a gas turbine in the airplane. AR: This is just a total revolution for the planet. RM: It is, it represents an unbelievable - if you are going to design an energy source, you couldn't design anything better. AR: Exactly. RM: Because the planet is essentially made out of water, and the amount you would use up would take thousands and thousands of years just to remove the water from the biosphere that burning fossil fuels put in the atmosphere in the first place. AR: We wouldn't have to worry about the water situation. RM: No there's billions and billions - inexhaustible. We then talked for a bit about the work of Aquarian Research which has been a tax exempt nonprofit organization since 1970. Our work is finding ways this planet could have a really positive future. We have no corporate or government funding so we are free to look at all possibilities, and we have searched for new energy systems for decades. This discovery of Randell Mills appears to be the answer to our years of searching, and could reduce the huge inequality between the rich and poor on our planet without the need for war or violent revolutions. Aquarian Research also looks at health and spiritual issues and happier lifestyles for humanity and reports the findings in our newsletter, Aquarian Alternatives which is sent to all who send tax deductible contributions. AR: My operation is a shoestring operation. I just depend on the lord. Somehow if I work for the universe, the universe works for me. I have an income, presently from a trust my mother left of about $12,000 a year RM: OK. AR: And we have a family of four; that supports us well enough and people ask how can you own an airplane on that income. Well, people donate, you know we got a twelve hundred dollar radio in the airplane just recently donated by Icom. RM: How nice. AR: And I'm looking forward to a donation of good GPS and there are various things they hear what I'm doing, when they read about this, they're gonna donate more. RM: Could be. AR: This is beyond everything. RM: Yeah, a pile of information from us. AR: I'm serving the planet in ways that they are not able to do at this time; some are in some way and people appreciate it and they help me. [ OK, that's about the end of the personal interview, we then went and took some pictures and now here's another phone call with Dr Mills ] After the personal interview, I called Randy Mills again: RM: Oh, how are you doing, Art ? AR: Better and better, except I just learned that there's an airworthiness directive on my old Cessna and that's going to cost me over a thousand dollars. RM: Oh, God I hate that. AR: Do you fly ? RM: No, I was just being facetous. AR: The reason I'm calling you is to try to get you to just tell me the story of how you discovered this new form of energy. RM: OK, I was working on the theory, you know that theory, I gave you that book, and I applied that non-radiative boundary constraint to the hydrogen atom. AR: What led you to work on a new theory? RM: Well, 'cause I knew the old theory was wrong. It doesn't work. It causes a division between classical, you know, the large scale physics and atomic physics. And Bohr, back in the early 19th century said he couldn't get the theories to work out and be in agreement with classical theories, so he just said it just obeys different physics which was a very bad move. And we've inherited that ever since. So what I said is physics has to apply on all scales because everything is made out of atoms and the laws that apply on the large scale must apply on the atomic scale since they did not solve the equations correctly. AR: What you are saying is that you started out then from the mathematical point of view? RM: A very sensible theory derived the solution to the atom, it predicted these other states of hydrogen and how to make these transitions occur, that is I had to use a catalyst that will absorb the exact amount of energy 27.2 eV and I looked in the literature and said, Oh, look, potassium has a reaction that can absorb that amount of energy and then I ran the reaction. Simple as that, it's all from theory. AR: I see. You started out to be a medical doctor, is that right? RM: Yeah, but I invented a lot of cutting edge technologies and I was always in the high-tech end of things and I took an electrical engineering program at MIT. AR: We know that I see that from your biography. AR: So, you started out as a medical doctor working at the high- tech end of inventing new medical procedures. RM: Not procedures, new medical technologies. Pharmaceutical technologies and medical imaging technologies, things of that nature. And I was working on theory to predict new technologies and I went back and I reworked atomic theory correctly and it predicted this new source of energy by making a form of hydrogen that exists in nature but no one knew how to make it or was aware of its existence. AR: So hydrinos do exist naturally? RM: Yes, they make up dark the matter and they - it accounts for part of the energy, about 40% of the energy coming from our Sun, for example. It accounts for the flares that you see in the Sun. AR: Flares? RM: Solar flares. The mechanism behind that is these lower energy hydrogen transitions. AR: So, you were working at inventions having to do with medicine and healing and you came upon - you started working on the mathematics RM: Of atomic theory AR: Of atomic theory, and finding that the theory was evidently wrong. RM: Yes. AR: And it's not only your discovery but other people have seen so many inconsistencies. RM: That's correct. AR: That you had to say there must be something wrong with this whole mess. Einstein saw that. RM: Yes, Einstein saw right through that at the very beginning. AR: And he said that his theory was, at least, not complete. RM: He was correct though. His part of it was correct and his intuition was correct, but he couldn't finish it. I think I've finished what Einstein's dream was. AR: Right. And yet - but people seem to doubt - so many other scientists seem to doubt that hydrogen could have a lower energy than what they call the ground state. RM: Well then that's OK because this - you know - is something that's really quite new and it's been ingrained in them that there is something called the ground state, and the reason they're ingrained with that ground state because that's a postulate of quantum mechanics in order to solve the hydrogen atom. In other words, the theory - they invented the theory to match what their conception of the hydrogen atom was; it dates back to 1886. 'Cause they had some data that said here's a hydrogen goes this lower state, so we'll make a wave function that has that as it's lowest state but it didn't have any physics built into it, it wasn't based on physics, it was just a mathematical model. It didn't have to do with physics. 'Cause remember they said that physics was different on the atomic scale. AR: Right. RM: .... They just proclaimed that. Didn't have anything to do with physics, just proclaimed: "That is the ground state". And what I did, is I said, "No, it's physics. If you go back and solve the problem from the principles of PHYSICS, the electron can, in fact, go to low energy levels and you just haven't FOUND it yet." You have these other states that you can cause to happen by a non-radiative mechanism and that's what I did, I solved that and I went into a lab and tested it and it made energy and then I did some experiments that showed that this new form of hydrogen exists and then I looked in the literature and alas there is a ton of data in the literature that supports the existence of this new form of hydrogen and explains many, many problems that before could not be explained. AR: You say there's a ton of data in the literature? RM: That's correct. AR: But have you got specific literature in mind. RM: Look on the web page, there's a ton of it, there's things from solar flares there's light from interstellar media, there's transitions in the solar corona, there's microwave background from deep space, there's been nuclear hyperfine transitions, there's proton atom scattering, that shows a back-scattered electron peak that has the characteristic feature of being caused by a one to one half fractional hydrogen transition. There's a lot. - but look, my wife's waiting on me. I got to run home now. Well, ring tomorrow if you want to talk some more. [ Our last interview took place by telephone on June 14, 1997: ] AR: I want to ask you a bit about your life and what led you to take on the career that you took on ? RM: I'll have to think about that. AR: Naw, you really know it all. RM: Yeah, sure. AR: I mean you might want to think about what you tell me - sort of informal - I don't want a whole bunch of details or anything. RM: OK AR: Tell me a little bit about how you came to be in that situation. I wanted to be an inventor too, but when I was a teenager I discovered that most of my inventions would be used by the military, or something - RM: Well, I just decided that's what I wanted to do, and I just stuck with it and did it, to put it succinctly. You know, like a person would want to be a doctor , or a lawyer, or a dentist. You just work through all the issues, and just keep focussed and do it. AR: What led you to want to be in that field? RM: I enjoy it. It's like anything. If you try tennis and you like it, you try and do it as much as you can, and I decided I wanted to do it as a business. AR: Did you have any medical problems in the family or things that led you to go into that? RM: Not really. I just decided that was what I was interested in. AR: As an inventor, or as a healer? RM: All of it's the same to me, whether you're inventing medical or inventing energy. To me there's no such thing as a specific discipline. I think that's kind of an artifact, just the way the educational system is. But I don't see any sharp boundaries between medicine and energy and physics and electronics or anything. I think they're all interrelated. AR: All healing is a matter of healing the planet. RM: Everything's interrelated. Sure, I mean the chemistry that goes on in molecular biology - some of the concepts can be applied to atomic physics to cosmology. I mean, they're all basically working with similar types of reasoning processes. AR: How old were you when you first decided that you wanted to be an inventor? RM: I started working when I was, like, six. AR: Really? RM: Yeah, pretty young. AR: With what kind of things? RM: I wouldn't want to mention;\ - they were pretty far out. I think we ought to stick to the things we actually got working. AR: I see. Someone wrote the following: "For the sake of argument, let's accept that this is true (meaning Blacklight Power works). What are the plans for this wonderful new energy source? Is it to be held in the hands of Dr. Mills, who would surely become the richest man in the world overnight, if it were, or, is Dr. Mills beholden to some corporation or consortium, or, are there plans to make such wonders available to all, like the air and sunlight that surround us as a right of mankind?" RM: Ah, well, that's kind of a Utopian dream, but the realities are, when you commercialize something, someone's got to pay for the hundreds of millions in development costs, the infrastructure changes, and it's got to be organized as a business. You know, penicillin wasn't developed, except by the military, because it was "given" to the world and then, no one could get patent rights on it, so no one wanted to spend the money to develop it, because they couldn't derive any revenue from it. So, I've got shareholders I have to answer to, and corporate investors and the like. But, if you believe in the free market system, if it's the best energy source, everybody's gonna get it at the cheapest price. That's basically the way the system works. And I think it is competitive to coal and gas and nuclear power. And, in time, you're gonna see everyone's standard of living come up and the environmental issues improve as a consequence of the introduction of this technology and adoptation of it. AR: Right. RM: If you're asking, I've got about 160 shareholders. It's a private corporation but we're intending to take it public which means that anybody can buy ownership in the company, in other words anybody off the street could own shares in it if they had the money to buy the share price, and the units it will be in, it will be relatively affordable to anybody. AR: Any idea when that might go public ? RM: We're trying to get it done in 18 months. I mean that's kind of the business plan, but we can't guarantee anything. AR: Right, but in the meantime do you expect to have a powerplant running ? RM We're working on prototypes, you know, on the cell itself and also on - prototypes on the cell - we're looking at conversion equipment right now. We're trying to do some research into that, what would be the most effective conversion equipment. AR: To convert the heat to electricity ? RM: Yeah, it looks like maybe turbo generators look like to be the forerunner right now, but that could change. AR: And are you working at all on mobile systems yet ? RM: Sure. Yeah, as a matter of fact there's some real good synergies between the mobile and distributive applications equipment required so there could be shared development costs and increased mnarkets, that type of thing. AR: What about the poor countries - presently poor countries of the world - where they have no electricity ? Would you see this as being made available at a price people could afford in those places ? RM: It's probably the only thing that would really work for those countries 'cause they don't have the infrastructure for fuel and they don't have any central grid, and they don't have the economy to put any of that in. So deriving the hydrogen from water with part of the energy of the process, and then having a small compact unit that's relatively simple, is probably the only solution for them. In a lot of countries I think this would be very, very beneficial. AR: Right, I can see that. I've lived 12 years in the jungles of Paraguay and the remarkable thing is - RM: You don't have any fuel, you don't have any wires you don't have any engineers there, so if you can just drop in, parachute in a self-contained unit that's relatively simple - you know the advantages of that. AR: Where I came to was a Christian cooperative community of 600 people and they had a couple engineers, and they had steam engines after 8 years there, and they had electric light all through the village, whereas the Mennonites who'd been there for thirty years already, could not do it because they would have had to have electric meters in every house. And the cooperative community didn't have to worry about that because nobody paid nothing. They had electric light. It was a very impressive sight, the night that a Mennonite brought me first to his home a few miles away and I looked in the direction we were going and there was a glow in the sky which wasn't the moon, and I said "what's that ?". He said "Oh, that's Primavera. They have electric light". RM: Wow ! AR: It was very impressive ! RM: Yeah, AR: So, I got there and they had these ancient steam engines, and the newest one was from 1913, the German Wolfe, but the old one was from 1898, and still running. And we built a charcoal gas engine system to do it a bit safer. I was trying to understand how there could be so much high energy hydrogen in the water and oil of our planet, our glowing sun, and stars and throughout the universe. Why was hydrogen normally in a high energy state instead of the low energy state where we'd expect to find it ? So I asked Dr. Mills to explain that. RM: Everybody that I talk to has missed that. That's such a common question. You know, well, 95% of the matter that we see is hydrogen. Why isn't it in a lower energy state? Then you gotta point out to people that the 95% of the matter that you can see, that's hydrogen, that only represents 5% of the total mass of the universe, from what gravitational measurements have been made. So, what's this other 95% of all the matter in the universe? What is that? Well, that's lower energy hydrogen, also. I mean, that's hydrogen, but it's in a lower energy state. So, there is a lot of it, there is an awful lot of it in the universe in this lower energy state. You know what I mean, you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg. AR: Right, so, is it also present in our atmosphere and everything? RM: No, it's lighter than air, so it's not in our atmosphere, but it does make up a very large constituent of the mass in the universe, and there's a lot of it in the sun. It's being produced in the sun. And that's where a major fraction of the energy is coming from, by this transition reaction occurring in the sun. And that's seen from the sun. It's seen from interstellar media; it's seen from solar flares, etc. So, it's just a matter of misidentification or lack of making the connection between spectra, a very large constituent of matter that could not be identified, and lower energy hydrogen. If they had made that connection, then they wouldn't ask that question. But, not till now has anyone done that. [ Dr. Mills is not the only scientist working on new forms of energy. A few years ago we heard a lot about "cold fusion" which claimed a low temperature nuclear reaction proven by the appearance of tritium, a radioactive hydrogen produced by nuclear reactions. Cold fusion still has many adherents who seem to be making some progress. Some of them say that Dr. Mills must be using a similar process. When Dr. Mills denies that, some say he is being secretive, so I asked him about that. ] RM: Right, I'm not secretive. And I published three papers; and I'm working with a lot of companies. It's just I'm not working with them, and I think they always put their spin on stuff to try to promote what they're doing. I don't put much confidence in what they're doing as really real. AR: Well, I mean if you published this whole book that explains everything, it's hardly secretive. RM: It's not secretive. You made a good point. they do try to put their spin on things. AR: When they have no answer, they say it's secretive. RM: Right. There, if I'm disagreeing with them, and I'm saying I'm not making a nuclear reaction, (and who would even want a nuclear reaction - they act like a nuclear reaction is a great thing). And I say, no, it's not a nuclear reaction, and then, because I'm not going along with them, they say, "He's secretive". Like it is a nuclear reaction, but he's not telling you. I think that's what they're implying. And that's absolutely not true. AR: Right. And tritium production is one of the most dangerous things on the planet. RM: Dangerous. Gets incorporated in your DNA, for example. AR: Right, and it's impossible to contain it forever. RM: Right. It leaks out, permeates through metals. It's a very dangerous stuff; gets in your water supply, and then you're stuck. AR: That's what I'm hearing, too. I like what you're doing, because it doesn't involve that. RM: Yeah, They say: "Oh, we're producing harmless tritium. And without radiation, nuclear reactions, and we have no radiation, We have no nuclear products. "Well, I tell them, that's like saying that Sun Oil Company is cold fusion. There's a reaction that makes heat with no nuclear products, right, so that's cold fusion. AR: Well, yes, anyway, I really appreciate your telling me all this, and I think that's really what I wanted to know. RM; OK, well good luck with your story. AR: OK RM: Talk you later, good bye. [ THAT IS END OF OUR INTERVIEWS WITH DR. MILLS as shortened for this radio broadcast. For more information about these and other new discoveries leading to a positive future for our planet you may subscribe to Aquarian Alternatives, newsletter of the Aquarian Research Foundation in Philadelphia. Sample issues are available for any donation. Write to Aquarian, 5620 Morton St., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19144. U.S.A. ] Peace and love, Art Rosenblum Aquarian Research Foundation (Finding ways to a positive future for the earth since 1969) 5620 Morton St., Philadelphia, PA 19144-1330 (215) 849-1259 or 849-3237 day/eve. -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 08:43:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24486; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:34:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980115235151.0084ab20 mail.eden.com> References: <34BEF151.394A interlaced.net> <01bd2229$f8433700$0683410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:33:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Resent-Message-ID: <"sbHPQ1.0.W-5.0mulq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 12:34 AM 1/16/98 -0500, Frank S wrote: > >>Hey, Scott, what kind of hydrogen do you use? Is it from the normal >>2000 psi type tanks? > >Well, it comes from one of those tanks BUT it passes through a Pd/Ag >membrane before entering the chamber. This "hydrogen purifier" eliminates >all other gases . The contaminants that enter the chamber are the >molecules clinging to the walls of the piping on the clean side of the >purifier. Should be in the ppb range of total contaminants. I was going to suggest H2O in the H2, too, but now that looks unlikely. Last night I looked up what I could on H2 and W. All info agreed that W absorbs only a little H, and that the H is not harmful to the W. In fact, one book on techniques for radio tube construction shows a furnace design used to bake out tube components (to remove oxygen from them) at up to 1800 C (above the melting point of most metals); the heater coil of this furnace is W wire, because it is unaffected by H at this temperature. I did not find any mention of H and W at higher temperatures. That book on radio tube construction did point out that W is rapidly destroyed by H2 with even small amounts of water. It seems that the W steals O from the H2O, and tungsten oxides are volatile at a few hundred C, thereby transporting W to condense on cooler surfaces of the system. The book recommended that the H2 should have a dew point of -50 C or lower. Sounds like dry ice, and certainly liquid N2, cooling of the supply side would get rid of any H2O. However, with your Pd purifier on the supply side and a turbopump on the exhaust, I find it hard to imagine how you could have enough H2O in your system to cause problems. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 09:12:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25049; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:57:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:57:36 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:57:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Strange rock & capacitor behavior Resent-Message-ID: <"AoFUE3.0.C76.-5vlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde worte: ... >This rock is what a metal detector user calls a "hot" rock. They blast your >ear when you get near them like they were beer cans or something. Have you chekced its electrical conductivity? Common metal detectors work by sensing conductivity in the range of an AC magnetic field, made by that coil thingy. [snip] >I've left a megohm across >it, and the voltage has been hovering at around 15mv or so on the average, >but the thing sometimes meanders around by a few millivolts while I sit >there watching it. The capacitors never did anything like that, and with >the spacing of the foil 'plates' on this rock, it's not even really much of >a capacitor at all, just a clump of piezoelectric-dielectric with >who-knows-what going on inside it. Why should there be a distinct voltage >differential across it at all? Seems like electrochemical potential to me. We normally think of a wet electrolyte and dissimilar metal electrodes, but other combinations produce electrochemical potential differences, too, especially small ones. The metal detector response identifies this roch as somewhat electrically conducting. This might be the mineral matrix itself (solid electrolyte), but more likely it is water in the rock. You can check this by drying the rock thoroughly in an oven. Next, even if the electrical contacts (electrodes) yu are using are identical material, the rock probably has variations of concentration of ions between the points you contact. Concentration gradients generate potential differences, too, though they are usually small, right in the range of what you are measuring. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 09:54:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05934; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:50:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:50:01 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:53:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Resent-Message-ID: <"jksSd3.0.XS1.6tvlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Possibly there is a hole or leak in the Pd purifier? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 10:12:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05979; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:50:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:50:09 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:53:30 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Resent-Message-ID: <"NQ5GL2.0.KT1.Ftvlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott: >From the really amzing interview (much thanks to Peter Gluck B. Beaty!) with R. Mills: "RM: And you're running very low pressures 100 millitorrs so it's safe and reliable, if you punched a hole in it, it would just suck air in and shut it down immediately. " That sounds like a lower H2 pressure? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:01:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23037; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:56:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:56:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116124429.00a7d93c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:44:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little to teach calorimetry In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980116024837.006a7d24 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980115145411.00a77550 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6xFHE1.0.hd5.qrwlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:48 1/16/98 +0000, Mitchell posted to Vortex: >>"BTW, I am co-hosting a workshop on calorimetry at ICCF-7." > > Congratulations. Thanks. > First, what are planning to teach about calorimetry? Fran Tanzella (SRI) & I have only decided upon an overall goal thus far: workshop attendees should take away with them new ideas applicable to their next calorimetric measurements or to the interpretation of present calorimetric measurements. I would like to present an overview of the many different types of calorimeter that have been devised. That's why I asked you for further details about your multi-ring calorimeter. For part of the session we will serve as moderators in an open discussion of calorimetric measurement problems. I am expecting Ed Storms, for example, to present new evidence of problems with isoperibolic calorimetry that he has been observing in his new dual-method calorimeter. I am open to suggestions for the workshop content. >Understand you are bringing hardware up for your workshop; >which? This has not been finalized. Actual hardware would provide a focal point for some of the discussions but it might not be worth the time it would consume. I would probably bring the low-power water-flow system originally designed for the Ragland triode cell...it's the most portable calorimeter we have. > Second: No doubt despite this, we will continue to >hear false, and sometimes silly, dysinformation about how >skeptics are purportedly not invited to, or welcome at, >cold fusion meetings. Yeah, I'm just the Token Skeptic for ICCF-7.... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:02:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23130; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:57:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:57:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116125735.00a8580c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:57:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UUcpi3.0.se5.yrwlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:53 1/16/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >"RM: And you're running very low pressures 100 millitorrs so >it's safe and reliable, if you punched a hole in it, it >would just suck air in and shut it down immediately. " > >That sounds like a lower H2 pressure? Indeed....20 times lower than I'm using right now....hmmmm! Could it be that Mills revealed a secret detail inadvertently in the interview!? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:03:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22982; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:56:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:56:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116105643.00a80394 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:56:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science In-Reply-To: <34BF5BBD.3D51D483 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980115180715.00a77de8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"keORw.0.-c5.jrwlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:08 1/16/98 -0500, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Why are you using a tungsten filament? BLP reports using W in their latest work. The U. of Penn work that was done used a Pt filament...as Fred says that might be a lot better. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:10:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17143; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:57:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:57:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116111222.00a7f30c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:12:22 -0600 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 5 the trenches of science In-Reply-To: <01bd2285$e3221ba0$0683410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ynyj3.0.nB4.iswlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:51 1/16/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >How long will it last if 5E20 W atoms (about 0.15 grams) are removed as WOx >each second? :-) About 0.04 seconds :( Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:11:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26374; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:05:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:05:53 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: SPAM! Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:01:45 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd22b1$318382e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"lKRfy3.0.0S6.F-wlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Only Frank Z. could Spam himself. ROFL. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:14:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17975; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:04:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:04:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116130348.00a84f8c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:03:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 6 - underway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"aAA683.0.nO4.4zwlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Run 6 is underway with 1%Pd-on-activated-carbon in the catalyst holder instead of KNO3. Also, I'm going to spend some time pumping out the pure side of the hydrogen purifier during the bakeout and I'll heat the piping with a heat gun to drive off any adsorbed H2O so the H will be as clean as possible when it enters the chamber. Run 6 results should be up this evening. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:15:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18896; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:11:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:11:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BFB0A0.3A84 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:10:24 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: OPP's read this one References: <847755e9.34bf9b01 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9OqLX3.0.6d4.I3xlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC wrote: > Instead of screening SPAM I made SPAM. Good thing > I'm retraining. That's OK, Frank - we still love ya! When I saw that long string of "ZNIDARSIC's" in my mail I thought you had overdosed on strong coffee! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 11:29:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20533; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:22:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:22:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "Scott Little" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:18:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd22b3$803529a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"zk9E23.0.l05.sDxlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 12:01 PM Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science >At 08:53 1/16/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>"RM: And you're running very low pressures 100 millitorrs so >>it's safe and reliable, if you punched a hole in it, it >>would just suck air in and shut it down immediately. " >> >>That sounds like a lower H2 pressure? > >Indeed....20 times lower than I'm using right now....hmmmm! Could it be >that Mills revealed a secret detail inadvertently in the interview!? Interesting. I was once evaluating some low amperage electrical fuses that were a fine Palladium-Jacketed Aluminum wire, that the manufacturer claimed had an exothermic reaction between the Pd and Al when heated above the current. I put a bunch of them in a chamber pumped down to 50 microns (50 millitorr) and ran a current through them. They glowed red hot like a lightbulb for months. :-) At the same current in air at atmosperic pressure they went like a flashbulb in millisecs. Seems that the aluminum core when heated by the "overcurrent" fractured the Pd jacket and did oxidize exothermally if the O2 was available. Might try 50 microns, Scott. Regards, Frederick >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 12:27:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11719; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:22:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:22:01 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:22:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: FTL solutions of the Maxwell Equations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wApOM.0.ys2.d5ylq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear vo For the benefit of those following this thread I'm going to post here a detailed summary of my thesis , and thereafter discontinue my public discussion of the issues on the vortex forum. Horace is correct , no amount of theoretical musings is going to settle the question , experiment is the only way . But I just wanted everyone interested to understand the theoretical basis which underlies the experiment. If anyone wishes to continue the discussion with me by private email - I will be happy to continue the dialog that way. Since the title of this thread suggests a discussion of possible FTL solutions of the Maxwell equations , it's about time we suggested some at least in the context of the issues that Horace and I have discussed thus far. Jim wrote: > > Within the cylinder , which direction(s) do you assume that a unit of > information (about air presssure) is travelling, in that it is subject > to a time " delay" factor that also has a unidirectional meaning along > a time line (past to future). > > (1) valve to Mass end > (2) Mass to valve end > (3) Both directions concurrently > (4) None of the above > (5) I Don't Know Horace replied: (3) Pressure at each point is a function of every other point in the cylinder with time lag based on distance. Rejoinder by Jim : I think you are correct in your choice of (3) ,both directions conncurrently , but if that's true then you can't really call the duration of time in both directions a time "lag" representing a retarded effect from a single cause. One or the other would have to be viewed as a "time advanced effect" depending on which end one is calling the "cause" (xmit) and which end one is calling the "effect" (rcv). Another way of saying this is that if there was a time lag based on distance , and there was a concurrent flow of 1 unit of information in both directions simultaneously (concurrently ) the signs of the time "lags" going in both directions would have to be opposite . That is, from the point of view of an observer at the valve end , the unit of information that is concurrently available to the other end (the mass end) about air pressure must have moved in the direction valve to mass in a time reversed manner if the valve is still to be perceived as the "cause" of the air pressure change. > Jim asked: > Is there within the cylinder an absolute ordering in a time like > direction of "cause" (transmit) and "effect" (rcv) ? > > [A] Yes > [B] No > [C] I Don't Know Horace replied: [A] (yes) Thank you for this unequivocal ,neat , simple answer , Horace . At this point I'll paste a snip from Mendel Sachs "General Relativity and Matter " chapter 5 "The Electromagnetic Field Equations" For the sake of relating what Sachs has to say to our discussion , I'm going to substitute the word "transmitter" for "emitter" and "reciever" for "absorber" . These words will appear in brackets [ ] where this was done. "...in particle theories , the admission of the `advanced' solutions seems to violate causality -implying that the effect precedes the cause. But this implication is model dependent as it is based on a particular view of the system in terms of absolute particles, where time also has an absolute unidirectional meaning. The latter holds in classical, nonrelativistic theories. But in relativity theory the time parameter is only a subjective element in the description. That is, from the reference frame of the [transmitter] , the [reciever] must respond to it at some time _later than_ the emission of it's signal. On the other hand, either end of the interaction may be called the [transmitter] without altering the overall mathematical description of the interaction. Thus , the view one must take of the interaction in this theory , if we are to represent it in terms of the names [transmitter] and [receiver] , is in terms of the SIMULTANEOUS [emphasis added - j.o.] emissions of signals from each end of a mutual interaction , later to be absorbed by the `other end'. That is , the terms `later' and `earlier' are only defined subjectively , depending on which part of an interaction one refers to as [transmitter] or [receiver]. This follows from the feature of relativity that there is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ no absolute time measure , as there would be in classical physics, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ where one might identify a time sequence with the absolute ordering of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ `cause' and `effect'." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In another part of this chapter , Sachs shows how this relates to the application of Maxwell's equations to the question I asked Horace. "....there is a technical argument to support the delayed action at a distance concept according to the full meaning of the theory of relativity. This is the argument that the principle of relativity requires the elemantarity of the interaction relation, rather than the elementarity of the particle of matter. The objectivity of the laws of nature [covariance] requires that the full description of the interaction should be should be independent of whether it is represented from the frame of reference of _one_ of the participants - say the `emitter' or that of the other - the `absorber'. Thus to remain fully covariant the names `emitter' and `absorber' must be interchangeable without altering the total objective description of the interaction relation. In this case , the electromagnetic interaction between emitter and absorber must also be invariant with respect to interchanging the `retarded' and `advanced' solutions of the field equations . This implies that the solutions of the field equations must be expressible as a symetric sum of retarded and advanced solutions..." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- OK - if you have followed this up to this point I'll just repost my mathematical argument that the introduction of a resistance to an oscillating (resonant) system of electrical interaction has a mutually time cancelling effect summing to t(delay) = 0. This is only for the benefit of those who missed it way back when I posted it originally in a discussion with Michael Schaffer . With this ,I will rest my case : Accounting Delays at Resonance First, let us consider the free oscillations,ignoring for the moment any dissipative process associated with the electrical resistance. To begin with ,let's describe the electrical behaviour of the individual components. The capacitor is a device for storing electrical charge and the associated electrostatic potential energy. It's capacitance C is defined as the measure of charge q applied to the capacitor plates divided by the measure of the voltage potential difference that this charge produces.: C = q/Vc eq. 4 Therefore: eq. 5 Vc = q/C The action of the coil needs a little more detail in it's description. Under DC conditions the coil offers no opposition to the flow of current (remember were ignoring damping resistance R for now). But if the current is changing with time it is found that the inductor acts to oppose that change (Lenz's Law). Under these circumstances there is a voltage difference Vl between the ends of the inductor and this voltage is proportional to the rate of change of the current i. The inductance L is defined by the relation Vl = L di/dt eq. 6 This equation says that a voltage Vl must be applied to the ends of the inductor in order to make the current change at the rate di/dt. In a circuit made up of just these two components, , the sum Vl and Vc must be zero , because an imaginary journey through the capacitor and then the inductor brings us back to the same point in the circuit , thus we have q/C + L di/dt = 0 eq. 7 Now there is an intimate connection between q and i ,because the current in the circuit is just the rate of flow of charge past any point. A current i flowing for a time dt in the wire connected to a cpacitor plate will increase the charge on that plate by the amount dq = i dt , so we have i = dq/dt eq. 8 di/dt = d^2 q / dt^2 So eq 8 can be written: L * d^2q/dt^2 + 1/C * q = 0 But this is just like the differential equation for a mass-spring ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ system ,with q playing the role of x ,L appearing in the place of m ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and 1/C replacing the spring constant k. We can confidently assume the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ existence of free electrical oscillations such that Wo = 1/sqrt LC eq 6 NOW let's consider the effect of introducing a resistor of resistance R as in figure 1(a). At current i it is necessary have a voltage V across the resistor (=iR)...( Ohm's Law ) Let's look at this statement of zero net voltage drop in in one complete tour of the circuit as follows: fig 1 (a) i ---> C ________||____________ | || | | +q -q | Capacitor ,inductor and | \ | resistor in series | / | i | R \ | | / V | \ |____ L _____| UUUUUUUUUUUUU <--- i (b) i ---> C ________||____________ | || | o +q -q | ^ \ | capacitor ,inductor and Vo cos wt / | i resistor in series ,driven R \ | by a sinusoidal voltage v / V o \ |____ L _____| UUUUUUUUUUUUU <--- i q/C + iR + (L* di/dt) = 0 i.e. , (L * d^2/q /dt^2) + (R * dq/dt) + 1/C q = 0 OR d^2q/dt^2 + R/L dq/dt + (1/LC)*q = 0 Therefore , all delays and voltage drops sum to zero in the resonant system. Jim Ostrowski ---------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 12:56:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01392; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:46:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:46:00 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5..the trenches of science Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:45:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd22bf$a946cf90$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"wYncU3.0.gL.5Sylq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott, How about this for the optimistic approach, you burned out the filament by keeping the input power to it constant! You have to reduce power to the filament as the exothermic hydrino reaction starts in its immediate vicinity. Perhaps the higher filament resistance was actually higher temperature and not erosion of the filament, at least until it evaporated. This also explains the small Pout increase. No explanation is too good to be true! George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:01:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02556; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:57:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:57:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Thermal Spectra and LL-Hydrino Production Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:52:01 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd22c0$982b9460$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"gUuTW.0.nd.Qcylq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex The most prominent spectra in the near-red for Sodium, Potassium, and Hydrogen. Wavelength A Energy ev Transition Probability K 7664.9 1.617 0.387 7699.0 1.610 0.382 Na 5890.0 2.10 0.622 5895.9 2.09 0.618 8194.8 1.513 0.540 8183.0 1.516 0.453 Hydrogen (not given in this CRC table) H 6562.72 1.890 very high Which one will make the most Light Lepton (LL pairs) and subsequently Hydrinos, with hydrogen in contact with a hot metal or a Pd-Hydrogen CF cell cathode or sonoluminescent "bubbles" etc.,? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:03:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02740; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:57:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:57:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:50:55 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Whittaker Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bYwGl3.0.fg.3dylq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I happen to have, for a brief time, Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 0f Whittaker's "History of Theories of Aether and Electricity" ... at my disposal. If you have anything you want me to look up, within reason, sing out. Interesting work. John PS: I looks as though we have a bonafide non cryogenic non Rex Schlicher thruster which works via non high voltage, but yes electronic. We are close to running it up and doing so with it in a Faraday cage.... so as to thereby discount electrostatic or ion wind type stuff. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:06:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03011; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:59:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:59:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116145536.006b15f0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:55:36 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Little to teach calorimetry In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980116124429.00a7d93c mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980116024837.006a7d24 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980115145411.00a77550 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oM4ka1.0.yk.keylq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:44 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >> First, what are planning to teach about calorimetry? > >Fran Tanzella (SRI) & I have only decided upon an overall goal thus far: >workshop attendees should take away with them new ideas applicable to their >next calorimetric measurements or to the interpretation of present >calorimetric measurements. What new ideas of yours will you be presenting, Scott? ------------------------------------------------------------- >For part of the session we will serve as moderators in an open discussion >of calorimetric measurement problems. I am expecting Ed Storms, for >example, to present new evidence of problems with isoperibolic calorimetry >that he has been observing in his new dual-method calorimeter. > What new evidence is that? What is the problem? Is there an abstract/preprint/paper on this? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:44:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26333; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:35:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:35:10 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:31:04 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: I confused Ragland, CETI Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801161634_MC2-2F9C-302C compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"S2AiH.0.IR6.CAzlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex In a critique of Rich Murray's message, I mixed up two unrelated sets of experiments. He wrote: I also notice that remarkable excess heat of up to 500% was claimed for the Ragland cell in 1995, but zero excess heat was found by two labs in 1997, with no explanation proved for the discrepancy. I got mixed up and I thought he was referring the Little and Merriman's replications of CETI. Let me clarify, and bring people up to date a little. The 500% Ragland claims have never been independently replicated or observed, so they are much less solid than CETI's claims. CETI has been independently tested and replicated from scratch by Cravens, Miley, and various corporate labs including Motorola. Ragland is the only person who has seen own cell work, and his calorimetry is not very good. Ours was much better. Claims that have not yet passed independent replication and verification are always highly suspect. Of course we must take them seriously, and try to replicate them, because otherwise no claim would get past the first hurdle! I might add that until Arata has been independently replicated I will have reservations about his work. Getting back to Ragland, there have been two independent tests of his claims by Tinsley and Little. Both were inconclusive. Chris Tinsley was only able to do one solid test of the Ragland cell. It takes many weeks to set up and calibrate one run, although the next can sometimes be done in less time, say 2 to 4 weeks. Chris planned to do another one but he never had a chance. You cannot draw any conclusions from one run, except to say it did not work as well as Ragland and we had hoped it would. You need a data base of 10 or 20 or even 100 test runs to decide whether this technique significantly improves CF reproducibility. We have sent one of our Ragland cells to someone who is working with Ragland. We may someday get enough funding and free time to run the other on in Bow, New Hampshire. That remains to be seen. We have other priorities, like the Griggs machine, the magazine, ICCF7, and so on. I do not know enough about Scott Little's tests or his conclusions to comment on them. I do not know how many runs he made, or what significant difference there may be been between his cells and Ragland's. Before Scott Little himself draws a conclusion, I would urge him to spend a few days in direct, face-to-face communication with Ragland in the lab, and to use components fabricated by or approved by Ragland. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:45:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26839; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:36:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:36:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:31:21 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: More froth & contamination Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801161634_MC2-2F9C-302E compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"IxnCw2.0.GZ6.mBzlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Rich Murray writes: I did indeed remember that the Arata cell uses a closed cooling loop of fairly clean water. It is not "fairly clean." It is very clean. Laboratories use distilled water which is filtered and changed out frequently to prevent clogging and the growth of bacteria in warm water. Adding these weasel word "fairly clean" is a typical Murray Maneuver, like his earlier claim that Arata uses obsolete equipment. Suddenly, for no reason, we are led to suspect that Osaka National University laboratories are substandard. The people there use "fairly clean" water. Why wouldn't they use clean water?!? Who doesn't? I have never seen Arata's equipment, but I have seen two other calorimeters at Osaka National U., and a dozen more in various Japanese national and university laboratories. They have been up the usual standards. The cooling water is much cleaner than ordinary tap water. In the experiments I have witnessed and read about in detail, people spend weeks cleaning and testing glassware, tubes, connectors, pumps and other components. They rinse equipment over and over in hot distilled water. I once watched an electrochemist spend six hours purifying, testing and preparing two liters of water, albeit for electrolyte, not cooling fluid. Mizuno spent months pressure testing a cell at 150 deg C, 50 atm, for an experiment that required only 100 deg C, 10 atm. That is what you must do to prevent contamination. If you don't, the numbers fly all over the place, the changes are bigger and more random than real transmutation (real helium or isotope shifts.) People think that transmutation data can come from contamination, but they never tried to prove it. It is terribly diffiult to introduce controlled levels of one contaminant and not others. It is like "spiking" with tritium. People who have tried to do that cannot reproduce the curves from real tritium generation. Over months of operation, the water might collect dissolved impurities, like silica from glass, as is well known by reports by McKubre . . . Arata observed the effect turn on within a week or two in most cases. With a previously used, highly loaded cell it turns on again in a day or two. There is a chance that leaks might expose the cooling water to the electrolyte. No, there isn't the slightest chance of that. The cells are sealed and tested exhaustively to prevent helium contamination, which requires far higher standards than ordinary plumbing. A leak big enough to contaminate the cooling water would throw readings for the elements in the cell like helium thousands of times out of kilter. Believe me, you couldn't miss it. My main vision was that froth in the cell allows the H2 to be stored for a while at the top of the cell and at other sticking points, such as the recombiner, so that reaction with O2 could generate transient local hot spots . . . I repeat, the heat events continue for months. They are not "transient." I repeat, in real data, from real cells, transient recombination heat bursts are 50 million to 1 billion times smaller than the heat releases Arata observed. . . . close enough to the outlet temperature station to perhaps generate spurious excess heats. The outlet thermistors are nowhere near to cell. That would be a stupid place to put them. I am perfectly willing to be shown that this specific artifact can not or does not operate in any particular CF cell. Good! Show yourself. Do some arithmetic, a.k.a. quantitative analysis of data from real experiments based on the real laws of physics. Please note, 1<>1,000,000,000. It is the task of the objective, creative skeptic to imagine any possible artifacts that might be available to explain the sometimes impressively large apparent excess heats in many reports. I am sorry Rich, but I do not think these are "possible artifacts." They make about as much sense as the notion that we could launch a Boeing 747 with the energy from a single D cell battery. Yes, you are that far off! This is not "objective, creative" science, it is fantasy, without rigor, quantitative analysis, without backing from textbook theory or experimental data. You are defeated by basic observations in the report, like the fact that the heat turned on in a week or two. You are defeated by commonsense knowledge that a closed cell for a helium analysis experiment must be carefully protected against cooling water and other sources of contamination. You are not objective or skeptical. A skeptic examines *his own ideas* first. You never do. Instead, you post a barrage of uninformed, unfiltered, fantastic, half-baked notions, like the idea that ordinary water can develop a 1 to 4 deg C delta T after being used as cooling fluid for a week. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 13:53:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29344; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:47:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:47:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:41:11 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l Subject: Re: SPAM! In-Reply-To: <01bd22b1$318382e0$LocalHost default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vhct51.0.PA7.NLzlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I could SPAM myself.... but I would have to learn to write code first.... but I am SURE I could do it.... I am not afraid of trying new things. John On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Only Frank Z. could Spam himself. ROFL. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:00:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA31101; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:54:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:54:38 -0800 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD628 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: SPAM! Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:53:58 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"0ublS3.0.kb7.RSzlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Spam is particularly good if coated with a mixture of brown sugar and mustard, and heated to 275 oF for 30 minutes in an atmosphere of 80% N2 and 20% O2. Hank > ---------- > From: John Schnurer[SMTP:herman antioch-college.edu] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 1:41 PM > To: Frederick J. Sparber > Cc: vortex-l > Subject: Re: SPAM! > > > > I could SPAM myself.... but I would have to learn to write code > first.... but I am SURE I could do it.... I am not afraid of trying > new > things. > > > John > > On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > > Only Frank Z. could Spam himself. ROFL. :-) > > > > Regards, Frederick > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:04:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11466; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:02:29 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Resent-Message-ID: <"d9Q-O2.0.-o2.ZXzlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:57 PM 1/16/98, Scott Little wrote: >At 08:53 1/16/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>"RM: And you're running very low pressures 100 millitorrs so >>it's safe and reliable, if you punched a hole in it, it >>would just suck air in and shut it down immediately. " >> >>That sounds like a lower H2 pressure? > >Indeed....20 times lower than I'm using right now....hmmmm! Could it be >that Mills revealed a secret detail inadvertently in the interview!? My thoughts exactly! BTW, he now has a book out and an Australian patent. Any vorts in OZ have acces to it, or have a means of searching out the number? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:13:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12177; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:07 -0800 (PST) From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199801162201.AA07445 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 14:49:17 -0500 To: Subject: Re: New Anti-G? - WAS:Whittaker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3xF2E3.0.6-2.Nazlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John S [presume John Schnurer] scribed >PS: I looks as though we have a bonafide non cryogenic non Rex >Schlicher thruster which works via non high voltage, but yes >electronic. We are close to running it up and doing so with it in a >Faraday cage.... so as to thereby discount electrostatic or ion wind >type stuff. Please tell us more about the 'propulsion device'. Let's see....Propulsion with no electrostatic or ionic interactions would imply -- room temp, low voltage, electronic anti-gravity device! Or perhaps an Aether propellor? Please John.....Do tell us more!! Anton Rager Denver, CO arager McGraw-Hill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:18:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03888; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:11:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:11:00 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:14:36 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 - underway Resent-Message-ID: <"LhD6W.0.gy.ohzlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:03 PM 1/16/98, Scott Little wrote: >Run 6 is underway with 1%Pd-on-activated-carbon in the catalyst holder >instead of KNO3. > >Also, I'm going to spend some time pumping out the pure side of the >hydrogen purifier during the bakeout and I'll heat the piping with a heat >gun to drive off any adsorbed H2O so the H will be as clean as possible >when it enters the chamber. > >Run 6 results should be up this evening. When you opened the cell there should have been signs of WO somewhere, or at least W. Did you see where the W went? Also, C should react with H to produce CH3 or CH2. Any chance of an explosion? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:31:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07589; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:23:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:23:52 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:24:01 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Strange rock & capacitor behavior Resent-Message-ID: <"h5e11.0.Ps1.rtzlq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty wrote: > Search the www? [for conductive paint] Doh-h! Forgot to! Otay, thanks. As to the dryness of the rock and electrochemical effects - I'll dry out a rock sample in an oven after I get conductive paint and get set up right. But I think the main thing is to see if the strange diurnal waves are there again through logging values over time. If they are, I think their existence tends to override the other questions somewhat, even though they do continue to hang around. Publication quality work would require that I bake the rock in vacuum, then seal it, place it in a large cobalt steel vault, etc. etc. I think that given the changes seen in the electrolytic capacitors, there's obviously an external influence of some sort here, and that influence might be capable of creating the continuous charge seen on the rocks through a piezo effect which is nowhere near as prominent in the bulk dielectric used in manufactured caps. IOW the piezo effect might be helping to amplify the signal. Just a guess. As to the "hot rock" question, the metal detectors can be either the Transmit/Receive (TR) type, or even the newer Pulse Induction (PI) type. PI sees mush better around hot rocks, but the *nasty* hot rocks, like this cinder rock, will drive even the PIs crazy. It could just be mineralization, but it's the same whether they are on the surface in the sun and rather dry, or completely submerged in seawater. Eventually I'll compare their results against "quieter" basalts and other rocks we have here, like "beachrock" (fused or fossilized coraline sand) which is characteristically transparent to the metal detectors. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:33:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15597; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:28:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:28:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116162758.00a7676c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:27:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little to teach calorimetry In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980116145536.006b15f0 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980116124429.00a7d93c mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980116024837.006a7d24 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980115145411.00a77550 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"u8wRi2.0.Wp3.Byzlq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 14:55 1/16/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: > What new ideas of yours will you be presenting, Scott? We haven't worked up a presentation yet. I'll probably spend some time presenting a collection of the techniques I have developed to obtain acceptable calorimetric measurements with modest investment of time and money. Fran's experience complements mine...he can hold forth on the design and construction of super-high-accuracy calorimeters. I might also work in something about the advantages and practicality of constructing custom calorimeters to fit the particular experiment. ---------------- >What new evidence is that? What is the problem? Is there an >abstract/preprint/paper on this? I should let Ed speak for himself here. I believe he's still gathering data and drawing conclusions, etc. He just asked for some time to present his observations. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:42:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17332; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:35:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:35:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116163501.00a79d6c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:35:01 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 - underway In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HqMCj1.0.cE4.T2-lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:14 1/16/98 -0900, Horace wrote: >When you opened the cell there should have been signs of WO somewhere, or >at least W. Did you see where the W went? It's all over the stuff immediately around the filament location...a dark grey coating. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 14:47:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11093; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:35:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:35:10 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 5..the trenches of science Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:35:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd22ce$fbd48c20$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"iTqq51.0.8j2.R2-lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, The Randall Mills book has been out for at least 6 months. I and several others on the list have a copy. The book is strong on theory but my impression is that there is more practical experimental information in the more recent postings on the BLP web site. Remember that the 100 milli torr pressure mentioned in the interview was associated with 2000+ C gas temperatures. I don't think Scott wants a meltdown. It looks like BLP is heading toward lower gas pressure and 2000 C wall temperatures in their newer designs. This makes sense in terms of Mills theories of hydrino disproportination reactions and keeping high K vapor pressure. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 15:25:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19648; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:04:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:04:38 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:00:33 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: What we'll do to the tax collector Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801161803_MC2-2F9C-6B66 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"qRtvl2.0.wo4.4U-lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Soo wants to know about our tax laws: Just want to confirm that the leather thigh-boots, whips, chains and 3-phase calculator can be offset against taxes as a corporate expense. I hope they turn us down, and call us in for an audit. There has been a lot of talk in the papers about unfair tactics at the IRS, and quotas, and the fact that they devote 80% of their resources going after individual taxpayers, whereas corporations owe 95% of the disputed money. In England they recently investigated tax auditors and revealed similar abuses. So if we get audited, let's hope it is a meek, mousy little gray man with inkstains on his fingers and ketchup on his tie. Here's what we'll do. They abuse us, we abuse them. They get tough with us, we get tough with them. We send in Soo with her big leather bag of "books" and "tapes" and her "pencil sharpener." We demand a private interview. Fully private, with a full, revealing, meticulous examination of the paperwork! Yeah, up close, in your face, mister taxman! Ooo! Alas, in real life I was audited last year by a middle-aged black lady in a tiny cubicle with a 20 year old computer. She could not have been more polite, brisk & businesslike. We were through in ten minutes, she asked me to mail copies of some telephone bills, and that was that. Nothing to complain about. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 15:25:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21608; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:11:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:11:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:10:43 -0800 Message-Id: <199801162310.PAA31751 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Whittaker Resent-Message-ID: <"odbya1.0.XH5.6a-lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > Dear Vo., > > I happen to have, for a brief time, Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 0f Whittaker's > "History of Theories of Aether and Electricity" ... at my disposal. > > If you have anything you want me to look up, within reason, sing out. > > I own the set, so if you send yours back and need info, I have it too. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 15:53:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29432; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:44:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:44:00 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980116174450.00a827e8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:44:50 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 6 results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZA0nZ.0.jB7._2_lq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Take a look at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run6.html The filament situation is becoming about as clear as mud. I think we did make a crude "electron valve" however. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 16:05:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29726; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:00:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:00:46 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199801162359.RAA17810 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 - underway In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980116163501.00a79d6c mail.eden.com> from Scott Little at "Jan 16, 98 04:35:01 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:59:33 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-NIuQ3.0.OG7.hI_lq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >When you opened the cell there should have been signs of WO somewhere, or > >at least W. Did you see where the W went? > > It's all over the stuff immediately around the filament location...a dark > grey coating. Maybe H is just a good solvent for hot W. W does tend to migrate even in regular light bulbs, which I believe was the motivation for the strange chemistry of halogen which ends up redepositing the W on the filament. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 17:52:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28362; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:47:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:47:46 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:51:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"tuEUX2.0.-w6.0t0mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:44 PM 1/16/98, Scott Little wrote: >Take a look at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run6.html > >The filament situation is becoming about as clear as mud. I think we did >make a crude "electron valve" however. One possibility might be that the filament is eroding in an arc like fashion. This would not likely happen in a good vacuum without something to strike the arc. However, once the H2 cam in and partially ionized at the surface, an arc might be made (would be nice to have a visual!) If so, then rectifying the filament current with a fullwave bridge and making it negative should give it some cathodic protection. Might need to provide some shielding for your temp probe, etc. This may or may not reflect on the accuracy of replication depending on what kind of filament current BLP used - which I don't think we know, do we? The work function of W is between 4.3 and 5.25 so maybe your voltage is into this range, and thus the arc could form? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 17:58:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29472; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:54:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:54:56 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:58:31 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"E9Gpq.0.PC7.kz0mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If the filament is arcing it might actually be useful in providing K+ ions. One possibility might be to provide a grounding point for the arc, which could be made of something with a higher work function, like Mo, or a bigh chunk of W. If there was an arc it might help explain the Cu embrittlement also - it was at a higher temperature than estimated. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 18:13:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14584; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:10:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:10:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:12:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"W7jHC1.0.oZ3.0C1mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would suggest *two* filaments with a DC bias between them. However, when I was a teenager I made a jocobs ladder, with a friend, with a 7500 V neon sign transformer. In an effort to get a longer arc we made the ladder out of nichrome filaments, stretched between bow shaped metal supports, heated through an isolation transformer. Everything worked normally before turning on the filament transformer. With the filaments glowing red I started the HV arc going and within about 1 second it burned through one of the filaments, which was under a slight tension, thus causing it to whip out and hit my forearm. I could feel the arcs in the heals of my shoes going through the nails and into the basement concrete floor. After eventually getting up, I later took my shoes off and verified the arcing by the burn marks around the tiny holes through the leather heal. One moral to the story: arcs burn through hot filaments much faster than you would expect. There are obviously other morals too! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 19:30:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21728; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:24:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:24:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:17:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: def (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KoRAD2.0.OJ5.UH2mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:15:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer Subject: def HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive car parts not far from the object we are trying to hit. MECHANIC'S KNIFE: Used to open and slice through the contents of cardboard cartons delivered to your front door; works particularly well on boxes containing convertible tops or tonneau covers. ELECTRIC HAND DRILL: Normally used for spinning steel Pop rivets in their holes until you die of old age, but it also works great for drilling rollbar mounting holes in the floor of a sports car just above the brake line that goes to the rear axle. HACKSAW: One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle. It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes. VISE-GRIPS: Used to round off bolt heads. If nothing else is available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to the palm of your hand. OXYACETYLENE TORCH: Used almost entirely for lighting those stale garage cigarettes you keep hidden in the back of the Whitworth socket drawer (What wife would think to look in _there_?) because you can never remember to buy lighter fluid for the Zippo lighter you got from the PX at Fort Campbell. ZIPPO LIGHTER: See oxyacetylene torch. WHITWORTH SOCKETS: Once used for working on older British cars and motorcycles, they are now used mainly for hiding six-month old Salems from the sort of person who would throw them away for no good reason. DRILL PRESS: A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat metal bar stock out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest and flings your beer across the room, splattering it against the Rolling Stones poster over the bench grinder. WIRE WHEEL: Cleans rust off old bolts and then throws them somewhere under the workbench with the speed of light. Also removes fingerprint whorls and hard-earned guitar callouses in about the time it takes you to say, "Django Reinhardt". HYDRAULIC FLOOR JACK: Used for lowering a Mustang to the ground after you have installed a set of Ford Motorsports lowered road springs, trapping the jack handle firmly under the front air dam. EIGHT-FOOT LONG DOUGLAS FIR 2X4: Used for levering a car upward off a hydraulic jack. TWEEZERS: A tool for removing wood splinters. PHONE: Tool for calling your neighbor Chris to see if he has another hydraulic floor jack. SNAP-ON GASKET SCRAPER: Theoretically useful as a sandwich tool for spreading mayonnaise; used mainly for getting dog-doo off your boot. E-Z OUT BOLT AND STUD EXTRACTOR: A tool that snaps off in bolt holes and is ten times harder than any known drill bit. TIMING LIGHT: A stroboscopic instrument for illuminating grease buildup on crankshaft pulleys. TWO-TON HYDRAULIC ENGINE HOIST: A handy tool for testing the tensile strength of ground straps and hydraulic clutch lines you may have forgotten to disconnect. CRAFTSMAN 1/2 x 16-INCH SCREWDRIVER: A large motor mount prying tool that inexplicably has an accurately machined screwdriver tip on the end without the handle. BATTERY ELECTROLYTE TESTER: A handy tool for transferring sulfuric acid from car battery to the inside of your toolbox after determining that your battery is dead as a doornail, just as you thought. AVIATION METAL SNIPS: See hacksaw. TROUBLE LIGHT: The mechanic's own tanning booth. Sometimes called a drop light, it is a good source of vitamin D, "the sunshine vitamin", which is not otherwise found under cars at night. Health benefits aside, its main purpose is to consume 40-watt light bulbs at about the same rate that 105-mm howitzer shells might be used during, say, the first few hours of the Battle of the Bulge. More often dark than light, its name is somewhat misleading. PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER: Normally used to stab the lids of old-style paper-and-tin oil cans and splash oil on your shirt; can also be used, as the name implies, to round off Phillips screw heads. AIR COMPRESSOR: A machine that takes energy produced in a coal-burning power plant 200 miles away and transforms it into compressed air that travels by hose to a Chicago Pneumatic impact wrench that grips rusty suspension bolts last tightened 40 years ago by someone in Abingdon, Oxfordshire, and rounds them off. Found on: the JediHawk JokeList. To subscribe, happily send email to 'jedihawk mail.com' \\|// (o o) ORACLE SERVICE HUMOR MAILING LIST ------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------------------------- HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE? NEED A HUMAN RESPONSE? It's free! Just send a message to Relax! Send Steve a note at oracle-list-subscribe synapse.net oracle@synapse.net WHERE DO I SEND JOKES? UNSUBSCRIBING? OTHER QUESTIONS? oracle-humor synapse.net oracle-list-help@synapse.net WHERE'S THE WEBSITE? http://www.synapse.net/~oracle/Contents/HumorArch.html LEGAL STUFF: Steven Willoughby is not the author of this piece, and does not claim to own any copyright privileges to it. The work was submitted to him as an item for the mailing list, and it was posted solely on the basis of its quality. This list is nonprofit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 19:35:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17743; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:30:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:30:56 -0800 Message-ID: <19980117033011.26380.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [153.35.180.124] From: "Chetter Hummin" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:30:09 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"pehAW2.0.3L4.mN2mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You have to stop looking at gravity as a field but instead a byproduct of the ZPE pressure differentials caused by the absorbtion and redirection of ZPE by matter... Then you see that the ZPE must exist anywhere for matter to exist, so that ZPE exists wherever the potential of matter exists... ie, everywhere... ----Original Message Follows---- From: FZNIDARSIC Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:22:46 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com But if the energy density is uniform in all directions, then there is > no net gravitational spacetime curvature induced, anywhere. This is > like air pressure, gage pressure, and absolute pressure. The force on > the front of your body right now is about 10,000 pounds of force, but > it is balanced on all sides so you probably don't know you are being > crushed together! > > Ross Tessien .............................................. Hamdi!! good comments Ross you got it wrong. The age of the universe is limited by its mass density. The currently accepeted age is 15 billion years + - a factor of 3. If all of this zero point energy existed the weight of this energy would result in a short lived universe. The argument as to if the universe is closed of open hings on the weight of the mass energy of the universe. The best minds (John Gribben "The Omega Point") tell us that the is expanding on the line between open and closed. The know the energy density of the universe within a factor of 3. .............................................................................. ............................ Hubble's constant not only tells of of the expansion of the univese but also gives a deceleration constant. If massive qunatities of ZPE exist the expansion of the universe would be decelerating rapidly. Again not the case. ........................................................................... In a closed zero energy universe the gravitational potential lost by an object falling into the universe equals it rest energy. Ref to my article in IE Dec 95. If more mass energy exists than one proton of ordinary matter and 10 protons of dark matter per cubic meter this would not be the case. .............................................................................. ..................... Verna Ruba determined the energy density of Galaxies and found that ten times the mass of the galaxy is composed of dark matter....A 100,000 fold mass of ZPE was not found. .............................................................................. ................. Time slows in a gravitational field. Time would slow to a stop in the huge gravitational field produced by ZPE. .............................................................................. .......... I could go on but the weight of the proposed enormous quantity of ZPE energy would have detectable gravitational effects. Frank Znidarsic ----------------- Chetter Hummin chetterhummin hotmail.com "We are always making progress in the field of Psychohistory..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 20:12:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24632; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:05:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:05:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:51:49 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd22ea$79e0a8e0$d3a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FVyyZ2.0.C06.Du2mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 4:45 PM Subject: BLP Run 6 results >Take a look at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run6.html > >The filament situation is becoming about as clear as mud. I think we did >make a crude "electron valve" however. Oh,Boy. I sometimes think that BLP is putting out more blind alley decoys than Saddamn. :-) Activated Carbon has probably a surface area of 10,000 square meters/gram, and is a veritable gas cylinder full of O2, N2, Ar, CO2 and whatever else Scott is Sniffing. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 20:29:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAB28990; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:27:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980116222719.008371a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:27:19 -0600 To: From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results In-Reply-To: <01bd22ea$79e0a8e0$d3a6410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K_fML.0.u47.LC3mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:51 PM 1/16/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Activated Carbon has probably a surface area >of 10,000 square meters/gram, and is a veritable gas cylinder full of O2, >N2, Ar, CO2... Granted...but the activated carbon was in the chamber for the 250C bakeout and towards the end the bakeout, the vacuum system achieved 1x10^-7 torr which is indicative of a real low outgas rate in the experiment chamber. I'd be tempted to guess that the carbon was not holding on to much gas anymore. Of course, now that you've raised this issue...combined with the fact that there isn't any other hypothesis for the W consumption around...I'n tentatively planning to make Run 7 another blank run with no catalyst at all in the chamber... Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 22:22:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12156; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:13:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:13:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:08:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd230e$4f91a020$d3a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1O55e2.0.pz2.2m4mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 9:32 PM Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results >At 06:51 PM 1/16/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>Activated Carbon has probably a surface area >>of 10,000 square meters/gram, and is a veritable gas cylinder full of O2, >>N2, Ar, CO2... The surface area should be 500 to 1,500 square meters/gram one about 1/8 to 3/8 acres/gram. :-) Makes gas-masks quite effective too. > >Granted...but the activated carbon was in the chamber for the 250C bakeout >and >towards the end the bakeout, the vacuum system achieved 1x10^-7 torr which >is indicative of a real low outgas rate in the experiment chamber. Yes, and your low conductance constriction is not telling you what the chamber pressure was, is it? I mentioned a "virtual leak" . If there ever was one Activated Charcoal that can absorb it's weight in reactive gasses, is it. :-) I'd be >tempted to guess that the carbon was not holding on to much gas anymore. I'd be tempted to do a bit of wagering on that. :-) > >Of course, now that you've raised this issue...combined with the fact that >there isn't any other hypothesis for the W consumption around...I'n >tentatively planning to make Run 7 another blank run with no catalyst at >all in the chamber... Agreed, too many variable changes going on (in a great first cut). Mills has been at it for almost a dozen years. :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 22:23:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15256; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:19:21 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:11:08 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: BLP Replication experiments Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ekYEP2.0.Ck3.dr4mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Just thinking out loud here: The idea is to get atomic hydrogen (H), to react with K+ and K++ ions, right? Will passing H2 gas through an electric arc bust up H2? A DC arc? AC? Frequency,maybe some harmonic resonant to H2? Now where do we get the K ions? Hmm...arc electrode(s) made up of K? An alloy? Hollow electrodes fed with H2? Trying here to get around the eroding filiment problem. Platinum filiment yeah, but $$$$. I wonder if the industrial tool, the atomic hydrogen torch (sometimes referred to as a plasma torch) was ever tested in a calorimeter? . Have a good weekend all Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 22:27:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16588; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:23:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:23:56 -0800 Message-ID: <34C040C7.6A10 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:25:27 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Bass: CG tests References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8pCH83.0.q24.uv4mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Wager (Lunch in DC) re RR Accepted!!! Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:59:12 -0800 From: "Robert Bass" To: "Bennett.Miller" CC: "Joe.Maguire" , "Martha.Krebs" , , , , , , , Subject: Your Proffered BET about the reality of the CG's LENT Process for Radwaste Remediation (RR) Dear Bennett, Although I have been for 24 months in the shadow of the world's premier Gambling Establishment, I have _never_ gambled personally (if you don't count handing my daughter some quarters & grimacing while she played). Being a professional mathematician, I can compute odds! However, I am delighted to accept your proffered Bet ("Lunch in D.C., winner's choice"), if you will (as in the famous publicly-known bet between Stephen Hawking [Cambridge] and Kip Thorne [Caltech]) place a time-limit on it. I suggest 6 years, because (as a result of my obligations to creditors & heirs) I will have to give up all interest in Science for the Sake of Science (i.e. pure science) for the next 6 years and go back to the aerospace industry (an hour's drive from D.C.). I am willing to leave it to YOU to decide which conjectured viewpoint "won." Thanks for correcting any misleading implications in my words re your Final Report to the DOE's OER. Actually, you and I are far closer in our views & attitudes than some polarized proponents might assume. I _agree_ with you that there is no [in my words] "intellectually coercive" evidence _yet_ published that Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations [LENT] are real and replicable at will (potentially useful to mankind), e.g. for Power or RR. (However a member of the Board of Directors of Nevada Power has ordered and paid for a LENT-1 Reactor to be tested in Nevada in the near future as soon as Hal Fox in Salt Lake City, UT gets his new Gamma-Ray Spectroscope ready for use by the retired guru of GRS at LANL who has now moved to Provo, UT and will advise the [cold] Fusion Info Center.) Also you are right in having reservations about "science by e-Mail." Moreover, I am a sufficiently "objective" person/scientist that if in the next 6 years there has not been "mass replication of LENT at will" then I will accept that the CG's apparent "divine revelations" were a false alarm. This will be painful to me because when I asked YHWH whether or not the CG's revelations were from God or the Devil I got an unmistakeable answer (Isaiah 64: 2) "As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make Thy name known to Thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at Thy presence!" Of the 350,000 verses in the Holy Bible (KJV transl'n), there is only ONE [Isaiah 64:2] which is a dead-nuts bulls-eye REPLY to my plea for an answer! What are the odds that my hand would unerringly find that one verse, instantly, eyes closed, playing Bible Roulette? If my heart were pure when I asked, why would YHWH permit The Adversary to give me a false answer? If you accept my veracity, then this was a Paranormal Experience however you want to explain it (ESP, Clairvoyance, Psycho-Kinesis, or New Age "channeling" or whatever). [Maybe an ET orbiting the earth in an invisible Flying Saucer guided my hand by telepathy -- but if the ET was not YHWH, why bother to so claim?] If your conjectured position prevails in our Bet, I will have to admit that I am as "gullible" as my brother George [Distinguished Prof. of Anthropology at TAMU] thinks I am, and I was "listening to the Wrong Voice." Of course this will have profound effects on my personal Weltanschauung. (However, [in a moment of weakness?] several years ago, George surprised me by spontaneously exclaiming, "If Cold Fusion turns out to be true, I am going to start going to church!") I totally agree with you that only Peer Review & "time will tell." The sole qualification that I would suggest regarding your otherwise sound and, by me, "wise" remarks [appended below] is that whether or not the CG's LENT Process for RR is real or a false-alarm will only make 'a ripple' in the grand scheme of things. Your exact words were: ."And if CG is right and France supports their claims it will be barely a ripple in the grand scheme of things." I submit that the "size of the ripple" depends upon which end of the telescope one is looking through! From where I sit in Nevada it will be the Most Important Discovery since Nevada gained statehood, because there are literally _tens of thousands_ of people living here who are willing to engage [non-violently] in a new Civil War and force the DOE and Federal Government to KILL us all before we will allow the nation's high-level Radioactive Wastes to be "dumped on us" and stored in Yucca Mountain in what our Governor and both our Senators call the "screw Nevada bill." There are many Public Officials and also Private Citizens here [Environmentalists, Native Americans, Nevada Patriots who care about their grandchildren] who have publicly VOWED to "lie down in the road ahead of the DOE trucks carrying the waste" (as did Gandhi in peacefully forcing the British tanks to leave India) and sacrifice their lives to federal bullying before we will acquiesce in the multi-millennial Pollution of our state. Are you aware that some DOE scientists have ADMITTED that they have tracked Plutonium migrating _one mile_ through solid rock in 30 years, whereas the Geologists _HAD_ assured us that Yucca Mountain will be Radwaste-Tight for 100,000 years? Do you know the passages in the Book of Revelations of Saint John the Divine (echoing similar prophecies in the Books of Daniel & Isaiah) that "in the Last Days" the Angel of Pollution will "pour out the vial of the wrath of God" and "the name of the Angel is WORMWOOD!" Do you know why they re-opened 65,000 churches in the former USSR and Ukraine and renamed Leningrad as "Saint Peter's Burg"? Ask any expert in the Ukrainian language [where they had the meltdown that caused unspeakable Birth Defects in thousands of babies] what is the word for Wormwood and he will tell you: "CHERNOBYL!!!" I have a book PRINTED in 1946 which says that in 1917 three first-grade peasant children told their Priest to tell the Pope that Saint Mary had appeared to them and said "Russia will spread its errors over the world for a little while, but eventually return" to being a God-fearing nation. What is the most startling event in our lifetime? No expert would have seen this as recently as the mid 1980's but a 7-year old Portugese girl told the Pope not to worry about Marxian Communism in 1917!!! (God-fearing communalism goes back to the Pythagoreans 500 years BCE, and [according to Josephus] the Judaic-Pythagorean Essenes, who withdrew from the Pharisees & Sadducees about 100 BCE and whose discliplines [pacifism, no-red-meat, communal ownership, and 3 years Probation before admission (which even St. Paul abided by!)] were, according to the Book of Acts of the New Testament, accepted by the "first 500 Judaic Christians" (who doubtless took note of the fact that YHWH struck dead a couple who "lied to the Holy Spirit" and secretly held back a portion of the money they got from selling their properties as a prerequisite to joining the Commune). ) {For massive documentation from the most ancient original sources, see the astounding evidences in "The Vegetarianism of Jesus Christ," by Charles P. Vaclavik, M.D., Kaweah Pub. Co, P.O. Box 745, Three Rivers, CA 93271, 352 pages, $19.95 in Seventh Day Adventist bookstores.} I told a Jehovah's Witness friend, "I am leaving Nevada for 6 years and not coming back until I can 'really' retire," and he replied, "there may not _be_ any Nevada six years from now!" Here's to our Agreement that only "time will tell!" Au Revoir, Bob Bass P.S. I'll add my new snail-mail address at bottom below my .SIG file. -----Original Message----- From: Bennett.Miller To: rbrtbass pahrump.com Cc: Joe.Maguire ; Martha.Krebs ; rl_brodzinski@ccmail.pnl.gov ; claytor_t_n@lanl.gov ; phaneuf physics.unr.edu ; nj_olson@pnl.gov ; gdd@lanl.gov ; baker plasma-mail.lanl.gov ; Storms@ix.netcom.com Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:20 AM Subject: Re: "CG not Wright brothers" >Dear Dr. Bass: > > 1) I did not back-track on the Japanese "fiasco." I simply >acknowledged >that there MIGHT be other than science problems at work. > > 2) Furthermore, I said in the original draft version of my final report >that: > > "Basically, I am convinced that interesting work remains to be done on >the >physics of deuterium embedded in the lattice of another material and >subjected >to electrochemical or other relatively low energy stimuli...there are good >things to be done in this arena. New ground to be broken. New discoveries >to >be made. New industries created." > > I said the same thing in my revised final report of October 9. I >changed >not a whit of my opinion regarding the possibility of interesting physics. >My >final report went EXACTLY AS FAR as my original draft viewpoint. > > 3) In re independent verification of CG claims by independent third >parties, I simply will not engage in science by e-mail. I will not do so >for >two reasons. First, I have no intention of devoting the time and energy >required to be a reliable commentator on CF/LENT progress at this point in >my >life; nor do I have the experimental facilities to do so at my disposal, nor >do >I have the resources to mount a credible effort even if I had the facilities >at >my disposal (you may want to query Dave Nagel of NRL on his views on what it >would take to do some such analysis). I simply wish to devote my time and >energy to other things. It is a personal choice. There is no right or wrong >about it. It just is. Second, in my report to you, I challenged the >CF/LENT >advocates to pursue science by peer review and not science by e-mail. You >accepted and endorsed that viewpoint as I recall. Yet we are back to >science by >e-mail. If what you say is true about CG's claims being taken up by the >French >AEC, that is wonderful for CG. What is your problem with that? If it is >not >done in the US, so what? Science respects no such boundaries. The SSC was >terminated and now the high-energy physics community in the US is >suppporting >CERN's effort to build the LHC. High energy physics in the US didnt stop. >It >regrouped and moved on. I would have rather seen the SSC completed here, >but >its not the end of the world. Similarly for the US fusion effort. Where >once >we were the undisputed leader in the world-wide effort to build a fusion >power >reactor, we are now simply one of the pack. Again, so what? Am I worried >that >these examples of the US relinguishing leadership in some areas of science >to >others may be harbingers of some endemic, national scientific malaise? >Hardly! >There are many areas of science where other countries lead the parade. >Wonderful! That's the way it should be. Yet, as a nation, we are and we >will >continue to be the strongest, most aggressive, and best supporters of >science >and technology in the world. Nobody really comes close. And if CG is right >and >France supports their claims it will be barely a ripple in the grand scheme >of >things, though please count me as a confirmed sceptic regarding that ever >happening. I'll bet you lunch here in DC (winner's choice) that any French >effort will end up like the Japanese effort at NHE -- another fiasco (your >word) >that will be explained away by disappointed proponents as being due to >government bungling. Time will tell. It always does. > >With best regards for success in your new adventure, I am >Sincerely yours, >Bennett Miller >___________________________________________________________________________ __ >__ >Subject: "CG not Wright brothers" >From: rbrtbass pahrump.com_at_internet at X400PO >Date: 1/15/98 6:46 AM > >========================== >-----------Private Communication------- >========================== > >Bennett, > I am NOT sending a copy of this message to anyone other >than you, the DOE-OER, Ron Brodzinski & Norm Olson at PNNL, >Tom Claytor & Gary Doolen & Don Baker & Ed Storms at LANL, >and a UNR physicist who was formerly at ORNL. As your Au Revoir >message before departing the Internet tomorrow, I would sure like to >know how the following strikes you! > On October 10 you wrote to me: > >=============================== >I for one, as you already know, do not think >anything is going to come of CG's efforts. The CG folks are not the Wright >brothers. Let us simply agree to disagree on that point. >=============================== > > I will of course agree that you are correct if no independent >replication of _any_ of the CG's hundreds of LENT processes is >ever published by any reputable third party. However, I hope >that your exposure to the LENT business (and your back-tracking >after the Japanese fiasco -- 3 months earlier you said you would >"probably" conclude that "there is _real physics_ buried in this >CF/LENR business" -- whereas your Final Report did not go that >far) has left you equipped to recognize when the evidence becomes >sufficiently overwhelming as to be "intellectually coercive." > I wish that things had moved along a little faster; day after >tomorrow Prof. Elwood Brooks, an electrochemist, is going to >attempt for the 3rd time [the first two times he got evidence that >Na disappeared and 18 new elements appeared from nowhere, but >the results cannot be claimed to be conclusive or publishable because >both times the cell leaked] to perform a "conclusive" demonstration >of LENT with results confirmed by Mass Spectroscopy that the >elements into which the Sodium has been transmuted have >non-natural Isotopic Abundance Ratios (precluding error by >contamination). The before- & after-processed solutions will be >sent to France to be analyzed by the French Atomic Energy >Commission (which has already announced that France has >"replicated" the F&P boil-off demo). If confirmed, the CG will >be invited to France to work with the French Government. > Tonight I saw a PBS documentary about the Wright >brothers. They were totally disbelieved in the USA (the >New York times published articles that claims about >them were fraud or delusion, even after _hundreds_ of >eye-witnesses had been interviewed by NY Times reporters, >whose reportage was rejected by their incredulous superiors) >until they went to France and flew for 2 hours (when the >best European efforts were measured in minutes). Only >after stupendous public acclaim in France did the US >government pay any attention and offer the Wright brothers >a contract! > I am beginning to suspect that my parallel between the >CG and the Wright brothers may turn out to be complete! > Hal Fox has just transmuted ONE-HALF a GRAM >of Thorium in a modified CG LENT-reactor, in which _all_ of the >stainless steel has been eliminated, so no one can claim that the >Copper which the CG published was "contamination from the >SS" [as implied by Ron Brodzinski]; the chemical assay of >Th in the before-processed solution was 4300 ppm whereas >the after-processed solution had only 9.5 ppm (a reduction >of 99.8 percent); more importantly, the solution was NEVER >in contact with anything that had any measureable amount >of Cu in it, but the after-processed solution [like the case >which the CG put on their Website in color] contained >"21 milligrams of Cu"! Where did the FOUR PERCENT Copper >come from, if not transmutation? > Au Revoir, > Bob > > ======================================================= Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins] Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics, BYU, 1971-81] Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending Innoventech, Inc. Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g. Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000 See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/ through January 27, 1998: P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739 Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213; e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com After FEBRUARY 2, 1998: Dr. Robert W. Bass 45960 Indian Way (Apt. 612) Lexington Park, MD 20653 ============================================================ ============================================================ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 16 22:37:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17880; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:28:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:28:20 -0800 Message-ID: <34C041FD.5559 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:30:37 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Beaty CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Please cease crossposts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"olPvn1.0.9N4.3-4mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jan. 16, 1998 OK, Bill Beaty, I'll limit the crossposts to Vortex-L to the most valuable, and expand my private list to include a few Vortex-L members who I think might be more interested than most-- I always agree to delete anyone from my list upon their request. I've stopped posting to sci.physics.fusion, as there is very little there of interest to me. Thanks for you very reasonable approach. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 00:30:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24330; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:27:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:27:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980117032322.006c9848 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:23:22 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Cc: db kemi.aau.dk, Scott Little In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980116174450.00a827e8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5lRXG2.0.4y5.kj6mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:44 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Take a look at: >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run6.html > >The filament situation is becoming about as clear as mud. I think we did >make a crude "electron valve" however. > > Scott: 1. Here is my hypothesis based upon limited personal experience with tungsten corrosion, an lack of familiarity with your particular setup. Your tungsten degradation (the following stated with no observation of the material which hereafter should be a sine qua non) may be due to it being amphoteric. If memory serves the Pd-C materials may be high in water, since some of them are actually kept wet for safety reasons. Was yours? If there is water and relatively electrochemically anodic material coupled to it, such electrochemical couple could yield alkali locally and secondary amphoteric degradation. Did you get the references I suggested last time re Uhlig's books? I am sending a copy of this post to Dieter Britz who may have considerable to add if he has time on amphotericity of tungsten which might be similar to what is seen more commonly between Mg and Al (the Al is also amphoteric). 2. You may be having "crosstalk" with your thermocouple. Is it definitively ruled out? 3. BTW, your expts never seem to equilibrate (e.g. with respect to power out). sometimes not even one subexpt appears to achieve equilibrium before you begin another. BTW there is still inadequate intial baseline, and settling time between various changes to fully evaluate. Hope that helps. Best wishes. Mitchell Swartz < From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 00:53:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05239; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:49:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:49:54 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:53:32 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"uJonp.0.nH1.o27mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:27 PM 1/16/98, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Of course, now that you've raised this issue...combined with the fact that >there isn't any other hypothesis for the W consumption around...I'n >tentatively planning to make Run 7 another blank run with no catalyst at >all in the chamber... Uh... I suggested a hypothesis: the W was consumed by an arc. You don't believe that could be the problem? I'm not sure either, but you might be able to find out with a DMM tomorrow, or a clamp on current probe. I suggested biasing the filament negatively to provide "cathodic protection." However, if it were biased positively, then the arc may not form at all. The work function of W is between 4.3 and 5.25 so maybe your filament voltage is into this range, and thus the arc could form? Providing a grounded electrode near the filament may help protect the thermocouple - but the thermocouple should be shielded anyway. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 01:02:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05954; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:00:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:00:41 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:04:15 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"2_a4X1.0.xS1.uC7mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:27 PM 1/16/98, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Of course, now that you've raised this issue...combined with the fact that >there isn't any other hypothesis for the W consumption around...I'n >tentatively planning to make Run 7 another blank run with no catalyst at >all in the chamber... Uh... I suggested a hypothesis: the W was consumed by an arc. You don't believe that could be the problem? I'm not sure either, but you might be able to find out with a DMM tomorrow, or a clamp on current probe. My experience is that arcs can vaporize red hot filaments at an amazing speed. I suggested biasing the filament negatively to provide "cathodic protection." However, if it were biased positively, then the arc may not form at all. The work function of W is between 4.3 and 5.25 V, so maybe your filament voltage is beyond this range, and thus the arc could form. Providing a grounded electrode near the filament may help protect the thermocouple - but the thermocouple should be shielded anyway. The grounded electrode could be a large sacrificial chunck of W, or a high work function metal like Mo. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 03:12:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA16105; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:08:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:08:22 -0800 From: Geosas Message-ID: <39395200.34c09109 aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:07:51 EST To: vortex-L eskimo.com, mwhitten@cyllene.uwa.edu.au, viv@ictus.demon.co.uk, bracewell nova.stanford.edu, jmb@cs.su.oz.au, sturrock flare.stanford.edu, nigel.bankfarm@pipemedia.co.uk, g-miley uiuc.edu, jlogajan@mirage.skypoint.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com Subject: Erosion of scientific freedom Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"lLBwU1.0.Ux3.b49mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: \AOL30IA\DOWNLOAD\EROSFREE.TXT scanned by geosas aol.com 17 Jan 1998 From: Freedom Today, pub. by The Freedom Association, 35 Westminster Bridge Road, London SE1 7JB tel. +44 (0)171-928-9925 fax -928-9524 Issue 6 Vol. 22 back cover, Dec. 1997. geosas comment: this refers to BSE and CJD, but is equally applicable to other fields. ---------------------------------------------------------- EROSION OF FREEDOM IN THE SCIENTIFIC WORLD By Janie Axelrad ------------------ Bureaucratic control and politically inspired suppression of dissenting evidence are over-riding scientific integrity and preventing a truly scientific evaluation of all the evidence on BSE and CJD, says Janie Axelrad. ------------------ WE WOULD all expect scientists to have total freedom. Without freedom we might never have discovered penicillin, aspirin or vaccines. But the truth is that scientific freedom is dead. It has been killed by a combination of media manipulation, money and bureaucracy. The latest scare story to hit the headlines is the advent of BSE and its links to human CJD. You may think that the risks justify the panic, the slaughter of millions of healthy cattle and the near destruction of small farms, but do you really know the facts? When BSE was discovered, few scientists were studying spongiform diseases; those that turn the brain into a sponge. Because of this, the government consulted those working on scrapie, a similar disease that has affected sheep for over 200 years yet has never caused human health problems. It was easy to hypothesise that scrapie had crossed the species barrier into cows, and could possibly do the same in humans. At this time, the CJD Surveillance Unit, set up to monitor the disease that affected only one person in a million, was under threat of closure. After announcing the possibility of BSE infecting humans, however, the unit fortunately discovered the new variant of CJD among younger victims. The unit and the jobs of its staff were saved. Prediction not realised Despite the predicted 'epidemic of biblical proportions' proving unfounded, these scientists were elevated to positions as 'experts', and were repeatedly interviewed by the media. It was a great scare story, and the 'celebrity scientists' wallowed in the attention, while pushing their vision of the truth in every newspaper and TV programme. The same scientists were placed on every committee investigating the problem, including funding bodies. It was easy to deprive dissenters of the funds to prove their case. Anyone finding independent finance to investigate other reasons for BSE is quickly discredited. The EU then stepped in, with a grant of approx 100 million pounds ($160m.) to investigate BSE. All is directed at the 'infected feed' theory. This 'generous' gift of taxpayers' money allowed the EU to control what was initially a British problem. The [European] Commission banned British beef exports, although we were still allowed to eat our own beef. Dissenting scientific evidence was ignored as increasing restrictions were placed on our beef industry. None of the regulations seemed to apply to the rest of the EU. The blame for the epidemic was placed on changes in the way our meat was rendered, supposedly allowing the 'infective prion' into feed which was fed back to our animals. The same processes were used in other countries without problems. The fact that we exported enormous quantities worldwide where there is no BSE problem is ignored, as is the discovery that earlier rendering methods would not have inactivated the protein. In the Republic of Ireland the numbers of BSE cases are increasing each year, coinciding with a fall in British cases. So great is the problem that Russia, their main export market, is considering a total ban on imports. The next largest market for Irish beef is the UK. We are allowed to consume beef that the Russians won't touch. Ireland is a net recipient of EU money, so the lack of action is not surprising. Even more disturbing is the discovery of BSE in the Irish government's research herd, the last place expected to have fed illegal animal protein to its animals. This herd is partly maintained by the EU. Significantly, the EU also banned beef from Switzerland, the only other country at the time to have any significant BSE cases. The numbers that caused the ban on Swiss beef have been surpassed in Ireland without comment. Recently, changes were made to general scientific funding which have completely eliminated innovative study. To receive funding, scientists now must prove collaboration with groups in at least one other EU country. This hardly encourages original thinking, yet most of the greatest discoveries have been by single-minded pursuit of controversial ideas. Expense not justified The taxpayer supports this unaccountable research. With regard to BSE, apart from the EU research grant and the maintenance of the CJD Surveillance Unit, costing millions each year, over 2 billion pounds ($3.2 billion) has subsidised culling healthy cows for no reason except to appease Brussels. If the scientists are wrong, we can't ask for our money back. The use of money has been seen to suppress dissenting views in other areas. AIDS research commands billions of dollars. Yet dissenters to the theory that the HIV virus alone causes AIDS have been repressed by media blackouts, funding withdrawal and character assassination. Evidence that may have prevented many of the thalidomide cases in the 1960s was similarly suppressed, with disastrous consequences. We have learnt nothing since then. The corruption of science has led to stagnation in research. Only when financial control is removed from those with vested interests will scientists regain their freedom. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Inside civilised society, politicians are a major problem. In courting popularity for self advancement, politicians almost invariably break the rules of contract bv offering what they do not own at a price which does not reflect the real cost of the resources. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The author, Janie Axelrad, is a biology graduate and experienced toxicologist. She is about to embark on formal studies of alternative causes of BSE as the subject for a PhD thesis. ******************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 06:31:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29682; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:28:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:28:42 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980117142829.00904438 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:28:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"LbOZG1.0.hF7.P0Cmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:44 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Take a look at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run6.html > >The filament situation is becoming about as clear as mud. I think we did >make a crude "electron valve" however. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > In previous posts, discussion of water reacting with tungsten ensued. KNO3 is a strong oxidizing agent, much moreso than H2O. In addition, it decomposes to K2O and NO2 at temperatures above 450 deg C. NO2 is also a strong oxidizing agent, oxidizing metals readily at much lower temperatures than those being used in your cell. A switch to some other potassium salt would be my approach. Which one? K2O is my first choice, followed by KCl if Pt or Pd are not being used also (The halides are poisons to Pt-like catalysts used in hydrogenation reactions). The low pressure mentioned in the Mills interview might have as an explanation: An optimum K+/H atom ratio is required in which the concentration of the ratio in the gas phase is high. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 06:53:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11326; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:49:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:49:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Arc ... shoes ...Re: BLP Run 6 results In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ji1N-.0.um2.aJCmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: DANG! I see many posts where people want to make HV 'anything' .... and unless you have been there this can be very dangerous. I have been there. In my case it was several hundred Joules, two inch path... the palm of my right hand. You don't need a conductor all the time for HV it will just "Reach out and touch someone" My experience may be used by some to explain my 'oblique' view of the world.... except I had this quirk long before the HV event. On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: > I would suggest *two* filaments with a DC bias between them. However, when > I was a teenager I made a jocobs ladder, with a friend, with a 7500 V neon > sign transformer. In an effort to get a longer arc we made the ladder out > of nichrome filaments, stretched between bow shaped metal supports, heated > through an isolation transformer. Everything worked normally before > turning on the filament transformer. With the filaments glowing red I > started the HV arc going and within about 1 second it burned through one of > the filaments, which was under a slight tension, thus causing it to whip > out and hit my forearm. I could feel the arcs in the heals of my shoes > going through the nails and into the basement concrete floor. After > eventually getting up, I later took my shoes off and verified the arcing by > the burn marks around the tiny holes through the leather heal. > > One moral to the story: arcs burn through hot filaments much faster than > you would expect. There are obviously other morals too! > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 06:58:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA32172; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:55:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:55:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980117085558.00870b40 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:55:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980117032322.006c9848 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980116174450.00a827e8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"53CGM2.0.bs7.lPCmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:23 AM 1/17/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: If memory serves the Pd-C materials may be high in water, since some of them are actually kept wet for safety reasons. Was yours? <<<<<<<< No it's nominally dry...with the precaution to "store under nitrogen". >>>> Did you get the references I suggested last time re Uhlig's books? <<<<<<<< not yet....going to the library next week. >>>> 2. You may be having "crosstalk" with your thermocouple. Is it definitively ruled out? <<<<<<<< not ruled out at all...in fact I now think that is what is affecting the Tgas signal. >>>> 3. BTW, your expts never seem to equilibrate (e.g. with respect to power out). sometimes not even one subexpt appears to achieve equilibrium before you begin another. BTW there is still inadequate intial baseline, and settling time between various changes to fully evaluate. <<<<<<<< I am in "search mode" right now looking for an indication of excess heat. I am satisfied that the baseline is stable and I am deliberately keeping the input power constant over the duration of the run, which does include some subexperiments, so that it will reach near-equilibrium at the end of the run when the conditions are right for excess heat generation. This allows me to complete the experiment within one day. At the end of Run 6, the Pout trace is virtually flat and very closely approaching the Pin trace. This clearly says "no significant excess heat". You can rest assured that, if I find it, I'll do some "textbook" runs to show off the calorimeter performance and the excess heat signal in the same run. Thanks Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 06:59:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA32369; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:57:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:57:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980117085800.00874d40 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:58:00 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tss0R.0.cv7.aRCmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:04 AM 1/17/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >Uh... I suggested a hypothesis: the W was consumed by an arc. You don't >believe that could be the problem? I'm not sure either, but you might be >able to find out with a DMM tomorrow, or a clamp on current probe. hmmm! How can I detect an arc? One end of the filament is grounded inside the chamber. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 08:05:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06611; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:00:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:00:15 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980117105342.006c0398 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:53:42 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Cc: Scott Little In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980117085558.00870b40 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980117032322.006c9848 world.std.com> <3.0.1.32.19980116174450.00a827e8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cA3An1.0.Bd1.DMDmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:55 AM 1/17/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >>>> At 03:23 AM 1/17/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: If memory serves the Pd-C materials may be high in water, since some of them are actually kept wet for safety reasons. Was yours? <<<<<<<< No it's nominally dry...with the precaution to "store under nitrogen". >>>> Did you get the references I suggested last time re Uhlig's books? <<<<<<<< not yet....going to the library next week. <<<<<<<< Examining the literature is usually of prime import. Given your repeated problems, you might consider actually buying a book on that subject. >>>> 3. BTW, your expts never seem to equilibrate (e.g. with respect to power out). sometimes not even one subexpt appears to achieve equilibrium before you begin another. BTW there is still inadequate intial baseline, and settling time between various changes to fully evaluate. <<<<<<<< I am in "search mode" right now looking for an indication of excess heat. I am satisfied that the baseline is stable and I am deliberately keeping the input power constant over the duration of the run, which does include some subexperiments, so that it will reach near-equilibrium at the end of the run when the conditions are right for excess heat generation. This allows me to complete the experiment within one day. At the end of Run 6, the Pout trace is virtually flat and very closely approaching the Pin trace. This clearly says "no significant excess heat". You can rest assured that, if I find it, I'll do some "textbook" runs to show off the calorimeter performance and the excess heat signal in the same run. Sorry to hear that you wont do clear science where parameters are clearly separated out and investigated one at a time, allowing equilibrium, and clear investigation. Sometimes it helps those of us not as smart as you to see what is going on. BTW, the baselines which you state are "stable" to your satisfacton have yet to be shown in your posted graphs. Perhaps you will eventually show them at ICCF-7? Scott, have you submitted any calorimetry/experimental papers for peer review? or have they been published already? Some of your efforts at Earthtech remind me of some up here in the Northeast who drive without clearing off their windshields, now laden with snow. < Perhaps having the paper in hand will clarify and further explain. Good luck. Mitchell Swartz < From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 08:33:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10814; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:30:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:30:05 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <210cf31.34c0dc62 aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:29:20 EST To: little eden.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Subject: BLP and Yusmar Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"mXBty1.0.pe2.CoDmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Your input output curve looks much like the heat up curve we obtained for the Yusmar. We also concluded no excess energy. The curve is an exponential with the decay constant proportional to the thermal mass. For review and comparison. YUSMAR TESTS The only thing I ever saw that really worked was CETI's device at the Power Gen Demo. Frank Znidarsic PS I did some fancy math on the exponential heat up curve deriving it from the thermal mass and vice versa. This math correlated the work done on the Yusmar at Lanl using a heat up method and my method using flow calorimetry. If I find it I will send a copy. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 08:51:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14052; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:50:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:50:14 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:53:50 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"3HDKO1.0.HR3.45Emq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:58 AM 1/17/98, Scott Little wrote: >At 12:04 AM 1/17/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Uh... I suggested a hypothesis: the W was consumed by an arc. You don't >>believe that could be the problem? I'm not sure either, but you might be >>able to find out with a DMM tomorrow, or a clamp on current probe. > >hmmm! How can I detect an arc? One end of the filament is grounded inside >the chamber. Unground it. Put both filament leads in current probe, or the thermocouple and ground leads in current probe. However, the fat one end is grounded may preclude the possibility there was an arc, because the filament should break towards the ungrounded end. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 08:54:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21999; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:49:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:49:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:51:43 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"SZIvY.0.fN5.A4Emq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:58 AM 1/17/98, Scott Little wrote: >At 12:04 AM 1/17/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>Uh... I suggested a hypothesis: the W was consumed by an arc. You don't >>believe that could be the problem? I'm not sure either, but you might be >>able to find out with a DMM tomorrow, or a clamp on current probe. > >hmmm! How can I detect an arc? One end of the filament is grounded inside >the chamber. Unground it. Put both filament leads in current probe, or the thermocouple and ground leads in current probe. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 08:59:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23273; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:57:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:57:11 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <603a2bbc.34c0e1e8 aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:52:53 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com, Puthoff@aol.com Subject: BLP Yusmar...flow vers heat up math Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"X6Qa4.0.Yh5.aBEmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott your heat up curve looks like the Yusamr curve...no excess energy.. The Yusmar was tested at LanL by a heat up method. The specific heat of the Yusmar was calc by Ron McFee by the weight and the specfic heat of the steel and water. Not such an accurate way considering the Yusmar was complex made of numerous materials each with its own specific heat. We added a heat exchanger in Johnstown and did flow calorimetry. A better method since the specific heat of the cooling water is well know. I did some fancy math to compare the methods. Scott you may be interested it for your conference. The math showed both testing methods to be in agreement. FANCY MATH......................... Yusmar temp calculations. This calc can be used to find the specific heat or the temp curve on a system that energy is added to as a heat exchanger removes energy. .............................................................................. ..................................................... GIVEN T = Temp rise degF = (Tf - Ti) t = time in seconds y = specific heat of the system, Yusmar measured with cooling water off = .45deg/kw-min h =specific heat of cooling water = 6.9 deg-gal/kw-min p = 1/h = .145 kw-min/deg-gal E = KW Ein = 5KW electrical for Yusmar F = flow of cooling water through the heat exchanger in gal/min = for test .357GPM .............................................................................. .......................................... dT/dt = (Ein - Eout ) y dT/dt = (5 - pFT)y .............................................................................. .......................................... pFT = the heat carried away by the heat exchanger. Heat exchange efficiency at low flows = 100%, the temp out of the heat exc = temp Yusmar pFT= (.145kw-min/deg-gal)(Fgal/min) T = (.145F kw/deg)( T deg) .............................................................................. ................... dT/dt = 5y - .145FTy rearranging terms dT/dt +.145FTy = 5y multiplying by an integrating factor (e**.145Fty)dt dT (e**.145Fty) + .145FTy (e**.145Fty)dt = 5y(e**.145Fty)dt left-integrating by parts, right-setting up to integrate / / |d( T(e**.145Fty) ) = 5y (.145Fy/.145Fy)| (e**.145Fty) dt / / integrating ( T ) (e**.145Fty) = (5/.145F)(e**.145Fty) + C (T ) (e**.145Fty) = (97)(e**.145Fty) + C simplifing T = 97 + C (e**-.145Fty) At t = 0, T = 0 therefore. C = -97 T = 97 [1 - e **-.145Fty] .............................................................................. ................................... The specific heat of the Yusmar y as determined with the heat exchanger off was 34deg/5KW-15min = .45deg/KW-min time constant = .145Fy = [.145KW-min/deg-gal](.357gal/min)[.45deg/KW-min] = .023/min Temp init = Ti = 60 deg F .............................................................................. .......................... Tf = 97[1 - 1/e**.023t] + T1 Tf = 97[1 - 1/e**.023t] + 60 Equation final The graph obtained from the Yumsar was a simple heat in heat out calculation The graph is approx by Equation Final equation above. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 10:05:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26331; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:00:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:00:37 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:04:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results Resent-Message-ID: <"1uRkI.0.HR6.37Fmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:53 AM 1/17/98, Horace Heffner wrote: >However, the fat one end is grounded may preclude the possibility there was >an arc, because the filament should break towards the ungrounded end. Hopefully it was apparent "fat" above should have read "fact". 8^) I checked photo , which is a pretty good tribute to the snappy, and can see the filament is clearly broken at the grounded end, which would be enough to end the idea of arc vaporization. However, the text in the html says it may have been broken there at disassembly, and is not thinned. Looking at the photo, there is the impression that there is some thinning at the other end of the filament, which would be consistent with the arc hypothesis, but which could simply be due to a difference in coil tightness from one end to the other. Also noteworthy, if there was an arc, it appears it would have been primarily between the filament and the heater case. After looking at the photos more closely I can see there is no separate lead into the chamber for the grounded end of the filament, which makes it tough to figure out if there is an arc - as you pointed out. However, it just dawned on me that the resistance goes up when the H2 is added! That is a sure sign there is no arc, because an arc would make the resistance go down. Didn't mean for all these words to be just noise background, but it appears that's what they are! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 10:22:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02267; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:18:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:18:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801171817.MAA00557 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:11:25 (-050 Subject: Re: Strange rock & capacitor behavior Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"7gaGj2.0.KZ.1OFmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > stewart-macdonald (800-848-2273) sells conductive paint for shielding > the insides of guitar bodies (item #29), but it costs a fortune > ($25.74 for a half-pint). Most electronic stores carry 2 oz bottles of a conductive nickel paint for shielding. It's about $5 or so. I've used it to shield computers that have plastic front covers and it seems to work well. -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 11:26:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03664; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:21:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:21:52 -0800 Message-ID: <34C104DE.3CAB interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:22:06 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 6 results References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qxCEK1.0.7v.EJGmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Unground it. Put both filament leads in current probe, or the thermocouple > and ground leads in current probe. > > However, the fat one end is grounded may preclude the possibility there was > an arc, because the filament should break towards the ungrounded end. > One point on this, Horace and Scott: Years ago when I worked in a "fixit" shop, we often worked on battery chargers for chargeng batteries in series strings at fairly high voltage (70 - 80 volts, etc.) This was before modern science and the chargers used a "Tungar" gas filled diode with a W filiment and a graphite anode. These things ran in an "arc" mode all the time and thus were subject to arc erosion at both + and - conditions. I think they would last hundreds of hours before the W filiments went - and in these things you could SEE a very vigorous arc - too bright to look at very long. Just something to consider. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 13:21:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18072; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:16:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:16:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980117161433.006b61a8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:14:33 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: BLP Yusmar...flow vers heat up math In-Reply-To: <603a2bbc.34c0e1e8 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"19O8K2.0.FQ4.0_Hmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:52 AM 1/17/98 EST, Frank Znidarsic wrote: >Scott your heat up curve looks like the Yusamr curve...no excess energy.. It is extremely unlikely that anything of significance in a complicated non-linear, coupled, and probably non-equilibrium system can be learned definitively from a heat up curve. It would be like attempting to determine the fish populations below the oceans' surface by an analysis of the waves thereupon. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ============================================================= "Controversy is only dreaded by the advocates of error." Dr. Benjamin Rush (1745-1813) U.S. physician, patriot From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 15:40:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20677; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:34:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:34:02 -0800 Message-ID: <34C13EB1.2C34 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:28:49 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: New Articles In Electrogravitics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="EGarticles.txt" Resent-Message-ID: <"snK7E1.0.w25.f_Jmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Abstracts of new articles about electro-gravitics, published in 1997. These can be found in their entirety at the American Physical Society preprint server: http://publish.aps.org/eprint/ Farewell to General Relativity By: Dalton, Kenneth [kldalton cs.clemson.edu] Posted 10-01-1997 by kldalton cs.clemson.edu The kinematical successes of general relativity are legendary: the perihelion precession, the gravitational red-shift, the bending of light. However, at the level of dynamics, relativity is faced with insurmountable difficulties. It has failed to define the energy, momentum, and stress of the gravitational field. Moreover, it offers no expression of energy-momentum transfer to or from thegravitational field. These are symptoms of a far graver malady: general relativity violates the principle of energy conservation. (6 pages) Physics under Gravity By: R.L. Collins, retired, e-mail rlcasa shelley.dbstech.com or rlcasa aol.com or rlcasa@onlinecol.com Posted 09-10-1997 by rlcasa shelley.dbstech.com The tug of gravity on a photon's apparent mass (by SR, "m"=E/c^2), gives the correct answer for the increase of energy of a falling photon but only explains half the deflection of starlight. This enigma has been resolved by recognizing that gravity slows c, c*= c/[1+GM/rc^2]. The missing half of the deflection arises from refraction, the index of refraction in a vacuum being n=c/c*. Accepting c*=c/[], and the energy of a photon under gravity E*=E[], there are consequences forphysics. Linear momentum is conserved under gravity, p*=p. The product of mu and epsilon is 1/c^2, hence mu*= mu[] and epsilon*= epsilon[]. The clock rate under gravity, (nu*=c*/L=nu/[]), slows, and Planck's constant increases, h*=h[]. The de Broglie relations for photons and particles is lambda* has to be re-defined as []^(-2)h*/p*=lambda/[]. Maxwell's equations are unaffected. The fact that mu* is defined as exactly 4pix10^(-7) is troubling, since it ties EM quantities to "earth normal gravity" instead of free space. The "capture" radius of a gravitational concentration, for particles, is GM/(sqrt2-1)c^2, or 120% the Schwarzschild radius, 2GM/c^2.Light, however, cannot be trapped. Hence, no black holes. (4 pages) On the Equivalence of Inertial and Gravitational Mass By: Petkov, Vesselin [(Physics Dept, Concordia University)] [] Posted 07-02-1997 by vpetkov alcor.concordia.ca The equivalence of inertial and (passive) gravitational mass of a body can be naturally explained if it is assumed that both masses have the same origin - the electric self-force acting upon each non-inertial elementary charged particle of the body. The main consequences of this hypothesis are: (i) both inertial and gravitational mass are of entirely electromagnetic nature; (ii) as there is no mass, but only charges, it is these charges that represent a body's active gravitational mass, and (iii) they cause the anisotropy in the speed of electromagnetic interaction in its vicinity which turns out to be the very curvature of space- time. The proposed hypothesis makes an experimental test possible and opens up the possibility of (at least partly) controlling inertia and gravitation even if one considers the mass not to be entirely electromagnetic (as presently believed). (19 pages) The Longest Range Electric Field, and Gravity By: Collins, R. L., retired, e-mail rlcasa shelley.dbstech.com or rlcasa aol.com Posted 06-30-1997 by rlcasa shelley.dbstech.com The vector potential is A=(mu/4pi)qv/r, from which B=curl A. Upon any acceleration of the charge, one finds a long range electric field, E=-dA/dt. The range of this 1/r field far exceeds that from a charge, which goes as 1/r^2 or a dipole which goes as 1/r^3. This E field differs from Hertz' solution for an oscillating charge. Hertz' finding of TEM waves from an oscillating charge is flawed by the implicit Galilean transformation of "retarded time", t'=t-r/v. By relating all time to a clock sited at the source, the need for retarded time at the observer is avoided and one finds an E wave solution. The waves which result involve E and B fields, but only the E field is long range (1/r). These are classical waves which remain tied to the source, and carry away no energy. The electric field affects neutral bodies by the Stark effect, exchanging energy and leading to a weak force of attraction very like gravity. This suggests that gravity is founded in the electromagnetic force, and is not fundamental. (4 pages) Is Gravity Electromagnetic? By: R.L. Collins, retired, e-mail rlcasa shelley.dbstech.com or rlcasa aol.com Posted 04-15-1997 by rlcasa shelley.dbstech.com Gravity is usually listed as one of four fundamental forces. This study suggests that energy is exchanged between neutral masses, via a long range elec tromagnetic force, and that this exchange of energy reproduces the effects of gravity. The mechanism involves transient electric fields, ever present in neutral atoms in consequence of the dynamic equilibrium of the charges, which create, through the vector potential, long range (1/r) electric fields. This leads to an exchange of energy via the Stark effect, of magnitude sufficient to account for gravitational forces. Exchange of energy is basic to force laws in physics. T he lowering of the potential energy goes as 1/r, is additive and non-saturating, is very weak, and leads to a force which is always attractive. (12 pages) A Connection between Gravitation and Electromagnetism By: Douglas M. Snyder Posted 04-14-1997 by dsnyder earthlink.net It is argued that there is a connection between the fundamental forces of electromagnetism and gravitation. This connection occurs because of: 1) the fundamental significance of the finite and invariant velocity of light in inertial reference frames in the special theory, and 2) the reliance of the general theory of relativity upon the special theory of relativity locally in spacetime. The connection between the fundamental forces of electromagnetism and gravitation follows immediately from these two points. Because this connection has not been acknowledged, a brief review is provided of: 1) the role of the finite and invariant velocity of light in inertial reference frames in the special theory, and 2) certain fundamental concepts of the general theory, including its reliance on the special theory locally. (13 pages) Theory of the sustentation of matter. By: Carvajal, Mario R [None] [carvajal uio.telconet.net] Posted 03-29-1997 by carvajal uio.telconet.net This theory postulates that atoms, like all active systems, require and receive a continuous supply of energy to maintain their activity. It conjectures that this energy comes isotropically from space, and from these premises it deduces: the mechanism of gravitational "attraction", the origin of kinetic energy and, through some experiments with elastic collisions, the fallacy of the work-energy theorem. (11 pages) Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 15:57:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02005; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:50:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:50:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:43:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: OR ....Re: BLP Run 6 results In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nvFiH1.0.EV.jEKmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Horace Heffner wrote: OR: > At 7:53 AM 1/17/98, Horace Heffner wrote: > >However, the fat one end The fat one's end .... is grounded may preclude the possibility there was > >an arc, because the filament should break towards the ungrounded end. > > Hopefully it was apparent "fat" above should have read "fact". 8^) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 20:24:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00049; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:15:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:15:27 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Blue's questions about Arata Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:14:05 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980118041914950.AAA172 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"nvKQY.0.f.U7Omq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rich posts some questions from Dick Blue about A&Z, since I have been defending their case. I am pleased that Dick is settling down to actually reading the papers. I will answer as best I can. First, I want to note that Arata is a senior scientist, highly honored in Japan, so I can take on faith that most things were properly done. In the CF context, as in financial advice, "past performance is no guarantee of future performance" and even the most experienced scientists can make mistakes, as George Miley has said (but not about the specific mistakes Rich thought he saw). That said, I proceed to Dick's questions. > Mike Carrol wants to limit the discussion to Arata and Zhang. > Fine! Let's discuss some of the details of Arata and Zhang. > Perhaps Mike can save me some time by clearing up a few questions > that I did not find answers to in my first read of the AZ paper > from the high temperature journal. > > PRESSURE. > It is not clear to me just how Arata and Zhang determined the pressure > in their cell and what measurements were made with what experimental > configuration. > They indicate that some cells were equipped with a "pressure gauge". > I would like to know specifically what that means and how the pressure > gauge was integrated into the calorimeter. I have the vision of a > pressure tube exiting the thermal boundaries of the calorimeter and > extending into a region of uncontrolled temperatures where it connects > to a giant bourdon tube gauge. Tell me it isn't so. As I read more of A&Z papers, covering years of work, it becomes apparent that the 1997 paper contains summaries of work done previously and discussed in more detail in the previous papers. The 1994 paper translated by Akira Kawasaki and posted to Vortex is a case in point. This seems to be the case with the pressure experiments. The diagrams are only schematic. What you visualize may well be correct, but the gauge probably was equipped for automatic recording, and may or may not have had a bourdon tube sensor. We don't know. What is being discussed in the context of Fig 9 and Fig 7 is a summary of Arata's findings with respect to the special performance of his DS cathode structure. I have a separate discussion going with Kirk Shanahan about its virtues. Kirk sees only mundane performance, Arata sees a mechanism for achieving rapid, high loading in the Pd black. Because the tube leading to the pressure sensor is a thermal conduction path leading outside the calorimeter, measurements of heat production are not as accurate as with a totally closed cell. However, the tube can be quite thin, and any heat conducted away from the measurement path would decrease, not increase the indication of excess heat production in the cathode. As I write this it also occurs to me that there are a number of solid state pressures sensors with very small internal volumes which could be immersed in the electrolyte, and the heat loss would be only that through the wiring. Such sensors could be coated with insulating material so as to be neutral so far as any chemical processes in the cell are concerned. The measurements of Fig 7 and Fig 9 are not from the experiments whose results are given in Fig 8, and which is related to the claims for 4He and 3He in the cathode. > Then there are some cells that are "closed", i.e. not equipped with > any sort of pressure transducer. In this case there is mention, > I believe, of an estimation of pressures achieved based on deformation > of the cell (?). Again I really don't want to believe that anyone would > put something like that in print in a serious scientific paper. I'm > hoping I am just not understanding what is written. Can you help on > that one, Mike? I don't see why it is not proper. It is an observation of an effect, not quantified. You are using "closed" in two contexts. A "closed" cell is one in which effluent gases from the electrolysis are recombined by means of a catalyst, which is the case here. The cathode capsule is *sealed* in the runs whose results are shown in Fig 8. All that is said is that the measurements in the experiments depicted in Figs 7 & 9 indicate that very high pressures can develop in the capsule, and that in other runs with sealed capsules, deformations have been seen, which indicate that high pressures exist in those capsules as well, although quantitative pressure measurements were not made with those specific capsules. This is supported by the photomicrographs of the Pd back before and after processing, as seen on p40, which strongly suggest partial melting of the processed particles. > I also am eager to learn more details about the construction of these > cells. The cell construction shown in Fig 5 is schematic, of course, with some details omitted. It does show that it is closed, fully insulated, with cooling effected by circulation of clean water through a cooling coil and temperature measurements made in the entering and exiting streams. Flow rates are indicated in the 1994 paper provided by Akira. It also shows that a substantial pool of electrolyte comprises a thermal buffer between the capsule and cooling coil, allowing for convective as well as bubbling mixing of the fluid. Thus there is no question of the critical input and output temperature measurements being affected by local "hot spots". > I have had my hands on enough palladium, before and after it > has been saturated with hydrogen, to be curious about fabrication > techniques of a cell designed to withstand high pressures. Let's say > they start with a bit of tubing to which they must attach end caps > and, in some cases, a pressure port. The picture indicates a > reentrant well for a thermocouple. Let's guess that the assembly is > welded. I count a number of delicate welds on what I believe is > difficult material to work with. No doubt the material is difficult to work with. My tentative reading of the 1994 paper translated by Akira is that the capsules were machined out of solid bar stock, with a lid presumably welded in place. (I looked more carefully at the illustrations in the 1994 paper, which suggest a Pd rod with a hole bored in it, then closed with a circular plug, presumeably welded in place. A&Z refer to "packing" the capsule and vacuum filling. How the welding was done is not stated. > > I don't think you can just do this welding in an uncontrolled > atmosphere. > Examples I know off that might be similar involve the use of electron > beam welding in vacuum. It's very trickey business. Suppose they > don't have access to such technology and use TIG welding instead. > By the way the I in TIG may stand for helium! > > Can you clear up any of these points for me? Arata's address is Arata Hall, Osaka University. Zhang's is at the Welding Research Institute, Osaka University. I believe that Arata founded the Welding Research Institute. I think it reasonable to assume that A&Z have access to the best welding technology around. Having worked with this cathode structure for years, I can only assume that they have learned to get it right, despite any inherent difficulties with the metal itself. I believe argon is also used in TIG welding. The QMS runs were on Pd black powder removed from the capsule after heat runs. One ciritcal point is that He does not permeate metals readily. Thus any He found as the Pd black is heated comes from within the Pd black, not contamination, nor any casual introduction incidntal to TIG welding, which is only conjecture and incosistent with other information. > Dick Blue In other postings, you seemed to say that A&Z claimed production of tritium, 3H. Read carefully, and you will see that the claims are for isotopes of He, 4He and 3He. Their QMS setup is closed, with a molecular pump and a getter chamber. Basically, they seal the system with the Pd-black in one chamber, and pump the system down with the molecular pump; that is sealed off. The sample is heated, and the dual QMS tuned on. Residual organics evaporate, and are captured by the getter (perhaps the molecular pump is still operating at this point). Once the organics are gone, the real measurement begins. Deuterium and He isotopes are driven from the Pd black and enter the QMS. As time passes, the Deuterium is captured by the getter, being chemically active (isotope of hydrogen). The He, chemically neutral, remains in the system. The early presence and continuing traces of D in the system provide a continuing calibration of the QMS as it sweeps across the mass spectrum. The He peak grows stronger with passing time. Any tritium in the system, being an isotope of hydrogen and chemically active, would be captured by the getter. Again, they are not claiming tritium production. Others have, in different experiments. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 20:25:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA32556; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:14:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:14:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34C181E5.49D8 gorge.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:15:33 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP run 6 results References: <199801171605.IAA07442 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CHOHQ3.0.Sy7.96Omq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: 1. Since you are now using a filament from an automobile taillight, perhaps you could consider ~12 volt DC, for which it is designed. A variable resistance for voltage control. 2. If you are still using the copper wires as terminals for the filament, THEY may be the source for Oxygen (extracted by H2 from the hot wires), unless you have changed to low oxygen copper. Maybe using the mounting already in the bulb, less glass bulb and brass base, would be more efficient/inexpensive. 3. I am of the opinion that Potassium carbonate will cause less problems. No nitrates. Hope this helps. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 20:31:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01627; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:25:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 20:25:11 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <26166637.34c1832c aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:20:58 EST To: chetterhummin hotmail.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"QPyd-3.0.KP.bGOmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/16/98 9:34:44 PM, chetterhummin hotmail.com wrote: <> For the ZPE researchers the above is thought not to be the case. It is an assumption, not a proven fact, by many cosmologists that the ZPE should be included on the RHS of Einstein's eqns as a driving term and thus curl up the metric. However, the literature is full of alternative explanations, including the (observable) fact that the ZPE does not curve space. Rather, the stress-energy tensor on the RHS of Einstein's eqns is the stress-energy of the departure from a homogeneous isotropic ZPE distribution. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 21:13:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04832; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:08:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:08:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980117230726.0083d5f0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:07:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 7 plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ED0Nt.0.QB1.vuOmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to all for constructive discussion and suggestions. Especially to Fred S. who has been hammering away at me to accept the fact that there must be some agent, probably either H2O or O, present in my system which is attacking the W filament. I am presently planning to remove the catalyst container, clean up the chamber to remove any remaining traces of catalyst, and perform Run 7 with (1) no catalyst and (2) the high-temp bakeout. If the W filament still erodes rapidly, we will have proof that something residual (probably H2O since a little of it can cause a continual erosion via the water cycle) in the system is attacking it. We can then start adding getters to the chamber in an attempt to eliminate the problem. Right about now, I'm wishing our vacuum system had a residual gas analyzer. I've been thinking about getting one for some time and it would be extremely useful right now as it would provide positive identification and semi-quantization of the gases present in the chamber. Further comments and suggestions for Run 7 would be greatly appreciated. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 21:45:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06846; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:33:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:33:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C193EF.6DA4 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:32:31 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! References: <26166637.34c1832c aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7ldT12.0.tg1.SGPmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Puthoff wrote: > However, the literature is full of alternative explanations, > including the (observable) fact that the ZPE does not curve space. Rather, > the stress-energy tensor on the RHS of Einstein's eqns is the stress-energy of > the departure from a homogeneous isotropic ZPE distribution. > I told my wife this, Hal, and she just sneered with contempt! Seriously, I thought the curvature of space was still an open question. (flat, spherical, hyperbolic, etc.) Wouldn't normal matter and radiation act like ZPE, gravitationally, if they (norm. matter + rad.) had a "homogeneous isotropic <> distribution"? I keep thinking of the "radiation era" folowing the big-bang when the universe was fairly smooth and, I thought, expanding in opposition to its own gravity. Frank Stenger (I'd better look through my copy of "The Big Bang" by Silk) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 23:18:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19849; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:11:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:11:52 -0800 Message-ID: <34C1AC4A.CB1 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:16:26 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Buried by Vortex mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-w8wq3.0.2s4.tiQmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Fellow Vorts: I have been very busy since the holidays, but finally had a chance to logon to the Email account where I read Vortex mail, and found 779 messages queued since Christmas. This amount was so large that I had to free up 20 Mbytes of disk space before my mail reader would let me see them. It took 15 minutes or so to download, even over my ISDN line. The volume is so high that I am sadly thinking of unsubscribing. But first, I would like to see if there is anything that can be done. I like the idea of Vortex very much. This format creates an international community and provides a way to get to know others that would be lost if we went to another format. I analyzed the mail to look at the distribution by sender, and found that well over half the volume was sent by the top 7 senders: 158 Horace Heffner 75 Frederic Sparber 55 Robin van Spaandonk 44 Rich Murray 39 Rick Monteverde 34 Jerry Decker 33 John Schnurer ___ 438/779 Sorry to list people by name, but this would not come as any great surprise to anyone who reads Vortex. These seven, and the many others who post about as frequently, often have interesting things to say, and I would certainly not want to keep them from sending messages. It just seems a tad excessive, especially when someone posts multiple messages the same day (I think Horace holds the record for this survey with 13 messages last Sunday). On most mail systems, it takes nearly twice as long to download two short messages as it does to download one double-size message. Would it be possible for people to consolidate comments into at most one or two messages a day? This would help quite a bit in reducing the volume. If all the rest of you like the current situation, fine. I will just unsubscribe. If not, maybe we can find some way to reduce the volume to a manageable level. There might be other options, like adding a separate chat group for those who want more real-time interaction. I hope nothing earthshattering is contained in those 779 messages. With no hope of reading all of them in the near future, I will just delete most of them. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 17 23:59:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23586; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:51:21 -0800 Message-ID: <34C1CFD6.329A keelynet.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:48:06 -0800 From: Jerry Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail References: <34C1AC4A.CB1 loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hmMUJ3.0.Sm5.uHRmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Bob et al! You wrote; > 158 Horace Heffner > 75 Frederic Sparber > 55 Robin van Spaandonk > 44 Rich Murray > 39 Rick Monteverde > 34 Jerry Decker > 33 John Schnurer > ___ > 438/779 Thanks for compiling that list, it is most revealing and I am surprised to be on it. Just didn't think there were that many posts, unless it was during the 'Cagle Tribulations'. In future, I will greatly restrict my posts to vortex and instead post them on the KeelyNet-L lists.kz mailing list (which I started 01/16/98). This list will be more specifically directed to my primary interests of overunity, gravity control and electronic health methods. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention, the volume on my part was quite unintentional and I apologize to all on the group for being so vocal, that will now change. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 00:15:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19493; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:12:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:12:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:15:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: piezo behavior - experiment report Resent-Message-ID: <"gRxH63.0.Um4.gbRmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In an effort to check out Rick Monteverde's hypothesis regarding a piezo effect related to his rock experiments, I examined a large piezo crystal to see if there were similar effects. The piezo used was a tube appx. 155 mm long, 85 mm OD., 7.6 mm ID, with the piezo about 9 mm thick. It was part #P-XTAL, $27.00, used, 7 lbs shipping, obtained from Fair Radio Sales, PO Box 1105, Lima, Ohio, 45802, 419-223-2196. It has a metallic coating inside and out, with well insulated wires attached. The inside appeared to have significant cavitation damage, and the inside foil or plated coating appeared to be warn back about 1 cm from the edge, or it could have been made nearly that way. The outside was covered with fiberglass, with loose fibers sticking out (messy), so the outer electrode was not visible. The piezo is said to be from a sub sonar. It is said to have a peak response at 12 KHz (3500 ohm impedence) and a peak at 17 KHz (230 ohm). A scope probe was connected to the piezo leads and picked up typical ambient noise, so the piezo was placed into a large steel cookie tin, with lid. The probe was hooked up to the inside wire of the piezo, the ground lead hooked up to the outside piezo lead and placed in contact with the tin. A second identical probe was placed in a polyethylene bag in the tin also, as a control. Things quickly settled down to about a 7 mV RMS noise, but the noise on the trace from the piezo probe was floating on top of a DC potential of about 3 mV. Many readings in various configurations were taken, crystal prone and vertical, with 10 Meg shorting resistor, and without, with microammeter and without. No current was measured directly. A DMM registered the 7 mV background, fluctuating a bit. The bias dropped at least half, when the 10 meg. resistor was used, and sometimes it appeared that if you waited long enough the DC bias would almost totally disappear when the resistor was in place across the piezo leads. It was necessary to use signal averaging to get good background measurements. The DC bias seemed to come and go, and to change its setpoint for no apparent reason. In the course of measuring various things, it was noted that the backgound noise did not increase when the lid was off the tin that was acting as a Faraday cage, so the lid was left off most of the time. It was then noticed that when my hand approached the the piezo, within 10 cm or so, the scope the voltage would slowly drift positive. It drifted upwards to about 100 mV when my hand was brought within about 1 cm of the piezo in a cupped position, to maximize surface coupling at 1 cm. The scope was set at 5 seconds/cm for the x axis. The slow drift upwards had a time constant of about 6 seconds, as did the downward drift when my hand was pulled away. By placing two hands in a cupped position and then placing them both right up near the piezo, but without contact, the voltage quickly rose to 250 mV. Direct contact with one hand produced 650 mV. An aluminum foil substitute was made for the hand. When placed in the same position as the hand, cupped around the piezo, nothing changed. It was not EM noise causing the DC rise. It was then noticed that the basline was drifting. When shorted out the voltage dropped to zero. When unshorted, the voltage rose up to its setpoint voltage with the 6 second time constant. Over long periods of 20 inutes or so, the setpoint drifted. The scope scan was varied 5 sec/cm to 5 ns/cm and the noise appeared fairly random. One odd thing of special interest was 2-3 ns pulses, about 10-12 ns apart, height about twice the setpoint level, which appeared to be rectified, i.e. were positive only. My wife stuck her hand into the tin and got a bigger response than I did. This indicated the DC bias was not due to some kind of antenna effect, because my much larger size makes for a better antenna. It was also noted later in the evening that the setpoint went to a negative 30 mV. A DMM was placed across the piezo leads in place of the oscilloscope. It worked fine, matching the scope values, and provided some portability. Due to the fact the background noise of 7 mV was so small compared to the 100 mV plus signal obtained from my hand, use of the scope was discontinued in favor of the DMM. To determine if the large negative change in setpoint that occured in the evening was due to evening cooling, a container of boiling water was then placed about 1 cm from the piezo. The DC bias shot up to over 1 V with the familiar 6 sec time constant. The boiling water was removed and replaced with ice water. The voltage quickly dropped to below -140 mV. This experiment in part simply confirms the well known fact that piezos produce voltage and current when subjected to temperature changes - due to thermal expansion or contraction. What seems strange is the change in the setpoint. When the leads are shorted out, then released, the voltage simply returns to the setpoint. One thing nice about the piezo setpoint effect is that it can be measured with the DMM or scope attached. The DMM or scope impedence is not sufficiently low to drain the voltage. At first it appeared the setpoint was not due to the rate of thermal expansion, thus energy was being tapped from somewhere besides the piezo expansion. This is because if the hand remains at a constant distance, the setpoint does not move. It the setpoint were due to a constant rate of expansion, then when the hand remains fixed, the voltage should eventually decline as the temperature of the piezo reaches equilibrium, which did not happen over a couple minutes. It appeared at first the only time constant involved was about 6 seconds. A longer term measurement was then made by placing my hand on the piezo until it equilized at 570 mV from a setpoint of -30 mV. Over a period of 11 minutes the voltage dropped to about 192 mV , giving a time constant of 11 minutes. When the voltage got to 170 mV my hand was released and the setpoint fell down to about -200 mV in about 30 seconds. It then began increasing slowly, probably with a time constant of about 11 minutes again. The results appear to be fully consitent with the hypothesis that the energy for maintaining the voltage "setpoint" comes from quickly equalized thermal expansion/contraction, with slow re-equalizing of the potential due mostly to the large impedence of the the instrumentation. The much longer 11 minute discharge time constant is easily missed due to the short 6 second time constant for local thermal equilibrium. It appears the elimination of the discharge resistance between measurements, by leaving an open ciruit, as Rick has done, permits the setpoint voltage to adjust up and down as the temperature changes - without 11 minute time constant discharge decline experienced here. Comments? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 01:17:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29473; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:10:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:10:12 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:13:51 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail Resent-Message-ID: <"r8RAI3.0.MC7.pRSmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I had no idea I was such a huge bandwidth hog. My apologies. However, it wouldn't suprize me to find out half my posts were made just to correct my prior ones! Maybe that explains about half the volume. I get too riled up and enthusiastic. Besides, right now I have a raaaaging case of cabin fever! tends to make me a bit manic. Since I appear to be 20 percent of the problem, I can take care of 20 percent of the posting problem by unsubscibing for a while. This would be especially good for me as I have too much to do as it is. Also, it is just too tempting for me to comment when I read the posts here. I unsubscribed for a couple months a while back, and then signed on "just to read" for a while, and now look whats happened! Also, I suspect it is time to subscribe to cable again to get CNN - which I haven't seen since the end of the last gulf war. Never know what might happen these coming days. I'd like to have a ringside seat like last time. Bye for now, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 05:47:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05275; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:43:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:43:22 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34C1F6C4.32CE70B7 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:34:12 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"l2MHQ2.0.LI1.uRWmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: ... Since I appear to be 20 percent of the problem, I can take care of 20 percent of the posting problem by unsubscibing for a while. ... Hi Horace, PLEASE do not unsuscribe. You have become one of my "favorite authors", and I read all of your posts. I like your correction of errors since it makes the thought process clearer to me. There are measures that others can take to move rapidly through their "mailboxes". I download my email into a single ascii file once or twice a day. Then I search on "tjs"; and rarely see spam -- I probably have megs of it in my archives; but I don't care. A quick look at "From:" and "Subject:" before going to the next instance of "tjs" tells me if I want to spend time. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 07:59:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01040; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:54:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:54:14 -0800 Message-Id: <34C2203A.A1875718 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:31:06 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 plans References: <3.0.5.32.19980117230726.0083d5f0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"p051U.0.5G.bMYmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Further comments and suggestions for Run 7 would be greatly appreciated. Hi Scott, Apologize first if the suggestion below are already said. - Do you have a sensor to see EUV or visible light is generated inside the cell? I suggest to insert two heat resistant glass rods or fibers trough the wall of the cell, one of this painted by a EUV sensible florescent powder at inside part, other left as it. A 5-10 mm diameter rods could be suitable for this purpose. A sensible light sensor with broad band spectrum could monitor photonic activities inside the cell. This could be significant, because a BLP reactions could be too low for detecting the extra he at, but could be easily seen by photometric methods. - Listen the cell; A contact microphone could any noise coming trough the cell. An electronic method could be used to compare the outside noise and the coming from the contact. - If the W filament have also a heating purpose, you can switch this job to a conventional heater and apply lower power to W filament. Even you can apply short pulses to lengthen the life of the W. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 08:58:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18478; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:51:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:51:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34C22CFF.2139E508 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:25:35 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! References: <26166637.34c1832c aol.com> <34C193EF.6DA4@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qyzxC3.0.bW4.WCZmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15225 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Puthoff wrote: > However, the literature is full of alternative explanations, > including the (observable) fact that the ZPE does not curve space. Rather, > the stress-energy tensor on the RHS of Einstein's eqns is the stress-energy of > the departure from a homogeneous isotropic ZPE distribution. Hi Hall, This afternoon I studied a bit a introduction of GR, to able use the tensor concept and see my novel hypothesis on gravity how be described with tensors or not be applicable. I had not yet able fully cover the tensor concept, and not answered these quest ions. My hypothesis divers from GR in two points: 1) matter curve the spacetime directionally in microscopic scale 2) given direction is determined my the kinetics of the matter or dependent how the energy is flowing 3) Statistical summation of these deformations gives non-vanishing curvature of spacetime macroscopically as described on GR. Probable results: - Curvature of space to mass ratio (gravitational constant) is a special case for ordinary matter, by its (random) distribution of it microscopic effects. Non-random structures of matter or of energy could curve space-time on different ratios and differen t manner. So ZPE could affect or not affect the spacetime not as thought conventionally. - Equivalence principle may need be revised. Two days ago, a related paper (I think) was published on lanl archive. I had no time to announced it. Maybe you will examine it: General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract gr-qc/9801051 From: S. Antoci Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:29:21 GMT (23kb) Microscopic Fields and Macroscopic Averages in Einstein's Unified Field Theory Authors: S. Antoci Comments: 22 pages, plain TeX Journal-ref: Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie, Vol. 21, 11-38 (1996) The relation between microscopic and macroscopic entities in the generally covariant theories is considered, and it is argued that a sensible definition of the macroscopic averages requires a restriction of the allowed transformations of coordinates. Spacetime averages of the geometric objects of Einstein's unified field theory are then defined, and the reconstruction of some features of macroscopic reality from hypothetic microscopic structures is attempted. It is shown how a fluctuating microscopic behaviour of the metric field can rule the constitutive relation for electromagnetism both in vacuo and in nondispersive material media. Moreover, if both the metric and the skew tensor density that represents the electric displacement and the magnetic field are assumed to possess a wavy microscopic structure, nonvanishing generalized force densities can appear in the continuum. They originate from a resonance process, in which at least three waves need to be involved. This process only occurs if the wavevectors fulfil the three-wave resonance condition, so ubiquitous in quantum physics. The wavy behaviour of the metric is essential for the occurrence of this resonance phenomenon. If you interested more in my hypothesis I can repost you previous posting to vortex in this subject. Ironically, as originally claimed there should be upper limit of ZPE density for cosmological reason if ZPE should be compatible with GR, this time I opened a way to remove this limit as you also mentioned. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 09:15:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13815; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:10:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:10:48 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 plans Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:06:36 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2433$703e3920$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4Zyna3.0.mN3.MUZmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15226 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I think the best course would be to use an inert gas He, Ne, or Ar for the first gas pressurization. A few cycles of these vs H2 with a careful monitoring of heat and pressure would be very interesting. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 10:05:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21086; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:59:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:59:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:00:31 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Off Topic] Starfield Sim Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"G35wY2.0.O95.mBamq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15227 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts- There is an excellent shareware starfield simulation IBM DOS program available for download from a mirror site accessible from: http://home.pacbell.net/wolton/ The thing features some tubular wormholes , galactic fly-by's , hyperspace jumps (tricky) and numerous other eye-candy. Don't try running it under Windows. Happy space-trails! Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 10:23:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26987; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:13:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:13:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980118135341.00a66908 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:53:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: re: Buried by Vortex Mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VBL7m3.0.Wb6.VPamq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15228 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:16 PM 1/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >Fellow Vorts: > > >I analyzed the mail to look at the distribution by sender, and found >that well over half the volume was sent by the top 7 senders: > >158 Horace Heffner >75 Frederic Sparber >55 Robin van Spaandonk >44 Rich Murray >39 Rick Monteverde >34 Jerry Decker >33 John Schnurer There is a simple solution Bob, subscribe to the digest version of this list. Check Will B's web site for info on how to do this. You'll get a few really big pieces of mail then... Frankly I like to see a large volume of mail; that's what the listserv is all about, people communicating! And thanks to those listed above for helping build community here. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 10:29:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27977; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:23:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:23:35 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Back to Vortex Agenda Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:18:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd243d$7b0a00a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CDXtU3.0._q6.bYamq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15229 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I plead guilty to submitting 10% of the Vortex posts (78 of 790 since Xmas). For the most part they are intentionally brief and on topic, in the hopes of getting information (in and out)relevant to the original intent of the Vortex List, as opposed to swimming in the "Cess-Pool of Knowledge" that people promoting their web pages that belong over on the "Encounters" Forum of CIS, flood this List with. As stated before I truly believe that there is a "common denominator" in all of the CF-Related over-unity effects and it would expedite things if one didn't have to shout (above the noise)back and forth to others seeking answers based on SANE SCIENCE as opposed extolling the virtues of every crackpot idea they come across. My grandchildren are looking at a future with the World Population DOUBLING from over Five BILLION to OVER 10 BILLION in less than 30 YEARS. They DON"T NEED Faster than Light travel or antigravity skate boards, or "o/u" devices that work like the C.O.P. of refrigerators. The World Wide Web and it's World Wide Brain capability holds the promise of solving the problems ahead, as long as it DOESN'T GO INSANE. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 10:36:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26725; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:27:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:27:03 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:21:15 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: page John Steck Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vJBO92.0.VX6.sbamq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15230 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear John, Please write me a letter, off line. Thanks, John Schnurer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 10:41:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27837; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:33:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:33:49 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:28:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Large mail Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sb34u1.0.ro6.Biamq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15231 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey! I made the list! I post because I: a] try to convey information b] am a busy body c] incite unrest and comment I will TRY to be more judicious. I have tried other groups, but Vo takes the award for low: GQ ... 'Goofy quotient' interesting stuff .... with the exception of long winded CF redundancies Suggestion: Many many letters start with: Re: fast Eddie's car brake experiment But really are certain aspects of the experiment or digressions. ALMOST Everytime I decide "I don't want to see anymore of 'fast Eddie' ..." But look at the post ANYWAY, I find something of interest. So the suggestion is to add to the subject line to identify a sub thread, ie., Re: Fast Eddie ..cute trick with antigravity John From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 11:06:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02538; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:51:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:51:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C31074.7906 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:36:04 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail References: <34C1AC4A.CB1 loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"akInn2.0.Yd.Kyamq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15232 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob Horst wrote: > > Fellow Vorts: > > I have been very busy since the holidays, but finally had a chance to > logon to the Email account where I read Vortex mail, and found 779 > messages queued since Christmas. Very large snip. Ahem. I don't know you, Bob; however, I think it is very RUDE of you to have made the comments you have made. There are several ways to filter email with today's software. One way is to sort your mail by topic and delete whole threads which do not concern you. I think all or Horace and Jerry's post have substance and regret that your post might prevent us from sharing their thoughts. I read six listservers every day which easily exceeds over 200 messages per day; but, I make good use of the delete key. I think you owe an apology to the members of this list, particularly those who you mentioned by name. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 11:41:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07365; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:37:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:37:09 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C31074.7906 bellsouth.net> References: <34C1AC4A.CB1 loc1.tandem.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:36:20 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail Resent-Message-ID: <"yCcC-1.0._o1.Zdbmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15233 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: R: Bob Horst's complaint: I'm having a problem with the math here. If the top posters stopped posting, wouldn't the next lower set of posters just get a promotion? And if *they* unplugged their keyboards, then the next, and so on. So what's the point of statistics like that? If anyone has a problem with my posts (and who could blame you, really?), put this in your e-mail filter: Header contains: "From: Rick Monteverde" Action: "delete message" And we're cool. Ok? #5, Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 12:16:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11681; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:09:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:09:33 -0800 Message-Id: <34C25C21.4549BAEE verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:46:41 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xzTkS.0.Js2.x5cmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15234 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, I think Vortex is very precious and effective list, revolutionary, a great community. Who have contribution to the list know well its worth. Yes, its cover a large area if interest, and have not a small volume. But, information its cover is mostly relevant and address their readers(?). Ideas offered here are precious, there will be no attempt to restrict postings numbers to contribute to redu ce the volume. Instead, everyone will feel free himself to write on it on its usual context as they think they find their readers. There is no obligation that a postings should be in scope of interest of major of readers. Yes, there are other lists having very narrow scope, but on vortex, I think everyone here are less or more enjoying the divergence of subjects and profit existence of these variety of contributors offering a solution, ideas or information when just it needed. I have many area of interest, but due the shortage of the time I could not enter some of discussions as "FTL solution of Maxwell equations". This is my complaint but, the solution is NOT to request from contributors to write less and does not discuss thes e items because I am in time shortage. :-) Downloading and scanning headers and even take a look to all coming postings does not take a great time. Most of time goes to read full of a letter, understanding the claim or experimental description and reply them. Who does not involve this second part of the activities may complain the volume of the postings. Maybe the digest mode will solve their problems. For example, when I announce a new released scientific paper, I think most of list readers are not interested on it. But if there is only one reader who profit from this postings, I think its worth to do it. I know the top seven people had got negative feeling from the issue. Due a construction activities in my house, I had restricted time and I failed to enter to top list. Next month I promise to enter to it. :-) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 12:18:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11759; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:09:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:09:49 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:10:01 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: piezo behavior - experiment report Resent-Message-ID: <"MAelC3.0.et2.B6cmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15235 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > It appears the elimination of the discharge > resistance between measurements, by > leaving an open ciruit, as Rick has done, > permits the setpoint voltage to adjust up > and down as the temperature changes - > without 11 minute time constant discharge > decline experienced here. > > Comments? The capacitor experiments I did showed a set of daily waves with odd characteristics that don't really match daily temperature changes. It does look like the temperature boosted the amplitude, but the shape is there, especially with the smaller daily midnight bumps I saw. More importantly, TTB did experiments under closely controlled temperature conditions and still recorded these characteristic waves, commenting also that the amplitude was reduced. There is a strong temperature correlation with dielectrics and piezos as would be expected, but I still think the evidence suggests the odd daily curves have their origins in other events, even if those events themselves are driven by temperature changes. By that I mean something like field strength increases due to heating of the earth surrounding the experiment. (But what does that at midnight?) I just did a test on a piece of granite while recording temperature, and there was essentially no major change in the average 60mV output during the day. There were drifts to 57 or 63 or so over several seconds or minutes, but it basically stayed centered on 60. This was with a 10megohm short and the DMM hooked in and turned on the whole time. TTB got a similar no-wave result in a shunted test on a capacitor: http://www.soteria.com/brown/docs/test104.htm I (or you or anyone) need to try this with a capacitor and a natural rock concurrently, shunted then unshunted, all thermally insulated or at least with good temperature recording. That should help sort this out, at least to the next level. Thanks for taking an interest in this and doing an experiment! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 13:02:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17683; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:49:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:49:07 -0800 Message-ID: <34C22A5B.64DF interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:14:19 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail References: <34C1AC4A.CB1 loc1.tandem.com> <34C1CFD6.329A@keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dbS4v3.0.DK4.2hcmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15236 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry wrote: > I apologize to all on the group for being so > vocal, that will now change. > -- I hope not, Jerry. And Bob - why don't you just "unsubscribe" during those times when you can't cull the list on a frequent schedule? I find I must do this from time to time. Horace also seems to use this technique. Come back on when you're ready and many of us would be happy to provide a brief fill-in on things you may have missed. For details, there's always the archives to scan. It would take me less time to unsubscribe or to subscribe than it takes to boot my computer. And, Bob, you make "unsubscribe" sound so ... well, final! I hope not! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 13:04:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19236; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:57:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:57:22 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34C25CC2.6D18411C mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:49:22 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: where's the fallacy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"SG3dd.0.Ti4.nocmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15237 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace, Please take a look at the following reference brought to our attention by Robert Stirniman: http://publish.aps.org/eprint/gateway/epget/aps1997mar29_001/main.html Theory of the sustentation of matter. (11 pages) Carvajal, Mario R [carvajal uio.telconet.net] Gravitation Where's the fallacy? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 13:07:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19953; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:01:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:01:56 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <8af7709.34c26d18 aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:59:02 EST To: fstenger interlaced.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"PgwRG1.0.ct4.2tcmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15238 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/17/98 11:42:48 PM, fstenger interlaced.net wrote: < distribution"?>> This is the standard view, and the reason cosmologists are skeptical of a high ZPE density. There are, however, alternatives, as I've said. One, for example, is that fermions contribute a negative contribution to the "cosmological constant" to cancel the ZPE boson positive contribution, even though both homogeneously and isotropically fill space. Another, for the stochastic model I and my ZPE colleagues favor, the apparent curvature of space derives from long-range van der Waals type correlations between elements of matter's quantum motions which are themselves driven by the ZPE, but the ZPE does not contribute directly; it only acts as a mediator. And ther are several other hypotheses on the table, none of which have resulted in broad agreement as of yet. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 13:21:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18849; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:16:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:16:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:10:21 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Priority: normal In-reply-to: <8af7709.34c26d18 aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"joxIl1.0.Pc4.u4dmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15239 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This is the standard view, and the reason cosmologists are skeptical of a high > ZPE density. There are, however, alternatives, as I've said. One, for > example, is that fermions contribute a negative contribution to the > "cosmological constant" to cancel the ZPE boson positive contribution, even > though both homogeneously and isotropically fill space. Another, for the > stochastic model I and my ZPE colleagues favor, the apparent curvature of > space derives from long-range van der Waals type correlations between elements > of matter's quantum motions which are themselves driven by the ZPE, but the > ZPE does not contribute directly; it only acts as a mediator. And ther are > several other hypotheses on the table, none of which have resulted in broad > agreement as of yet. > > Hal Puthoff Gnorts Hal, Does the ZPE model of gravity proposed by you reproduce the slowing down of time in a gravitational field as predicted by general relativity? If so, by what mechanism? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 14:45:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28936; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:31:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:31:04 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Acidic Yusmar? Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:26:01 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2460$0ed76760$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"B80cR1.0.147.dAemq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15240 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex MHSO4 ionizes in water (where M is Potassium or Sodium): M+ + HSO4- . The HSO4- ionization constant is about 1.2E-2, still fairly acidic which means that HSO4- <---> H+ + SO4^2- providing the proton and the K+ or Na+. NaHSO4 is used in toilet bowl cleaner stocked in stores and may be leached with water and added to the Yusmar system in quantities that may not attack the metals too badly. Otherwise, a mix of dilute H2SO4 and K2CO3 or KOH in the right quantities will accomplish the same result. A pH around 4.0, or so, of this mix ran through a Yusmar, or Griggs Pump, or, a wet (water)metal-to-glass or metal-to-metal friction heat experiment,or in a sonoluminescent set-up, might make for an interesting Hydrino-type experiment. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 16:36:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27746; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:26:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:26:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Pickle-Jar Experiment Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2470$45b70000$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYvT61.0.Pn6.-sfmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex A small jar (of the size that Scott can use his calorimetry on) with water acidified with H2SO4 and KOH to about a pH of 3 to 4, dyed with food coloring to as deep a dark-red as possible. (food coloring?) and an a 12 volt high wattage lightbulb (tail-light) should make another interesting Hydrino-Type experiment. Remember the the exploding pickle jars (in Sunlight) on a window sill in Russia last fall? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 18:19:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17737; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:12:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:12:57 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <22375202.34c2b64e aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:11:24 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"hEost.0.yK4.dQhmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/18/98 3:19:24 PM, oslo wrote: <> Yes. The flip side of the field ZPE approach is the particle virtual electron-positron plasma. This constitutes a polarizable medium, with the vacuum dielectric permittivity and magnetic permeability variable. Changes in these "constants," associated with nearby mass, charge, etc., lead to changes in the metric, space curvature, etc., and corollary changes in temporal rate and spatial extension. In preparation for publication, but not yet published. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 19:53:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01871; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:47:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:47:03 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C25CC2.6D18411C mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:50:25 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: where's the fallacy Resent-Message-ID: <"KRriN2.0.xS.roimq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack - > Where's the fallacy? I don't know, but it must be the same one that makes people think there's an unbalanced force on those gizmos with balls rolling around inside a circular track having rail spacing tapered on one side. The ball goes slow on one side, fast on the other. There's a web site on it, someone might know the URL. But do they really work? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 20:02:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05099; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:59:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:59:36 -0800 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:59:33 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: link working? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mGR673.0.WF1.d-imq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Butch, Your link works under "LYNX - ascii" and is 'very close' to being accessable... I'll grab what I found and send it to you. Appears you have an index.html in BOTH subdirectory's AND missing the html command "Body" and "/Body" which is stopping the graphic Browser out there.. Will send you other info off-list to avoid band width! -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 21:17:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18730; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:13:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:13:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C2E0C0.6FCE interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:12:32 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PIvvX3.0.aa4.l3kmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > Bye for now, > But Horace, WE LOVE YA, MAN! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 21:55:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25935; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:48:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:48:09 -0800 From: HLafonte Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:45:03 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: link working? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"9n3V-.0.7L6.Oakmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve, Thanks, Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 23:08:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05197; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:57:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:57:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199801190657.BAA11717 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 02:46:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Buried by Vortex mail Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34C25C21.4549BAEE verisoft.com.tr> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"UbaXL3.0.6H1.Yblmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex-L is a great list IMHO! If volume is a problem, use a volume control! I mean, a good e-mail client for sorting incoming mail. An excellent source for no-nonsense info on e-mail and all other net applications is: Stroud's List of Consumate Winsock Applications, at URL: http://cws.internet.com/ The 16-bit e-mail clients are listed at: http://cws.internet.com/16mail.html and 32-bit e-mail clients are listed at: http://cws.internet.com/32mail.html Stroud's top pick is Pegasus Mail. It's free for download from: ftp://risc.ua.edu/pub/network/pegasus/winpm255.exe I've used it intensively for over a year with no problems or limitations. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 23:16:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07814; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:11:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:11:31 -0800 Message-Id: <199801190711.CAA12630 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: Hamdi Ucar , vortex Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:00:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34C25C21.4549BAEE verisoft.com.tr> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"N-TCu.0.xv1.Yolmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 18 Jan 98 at 22:46, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:46:41 +0300 > From: Hamdi Ucar > For example, when I announce a new released scientific paper, I > think most of list readers are not interested on it. But if there > is only one reader who profit from this postings, I think its > worth to do it. Hamdi, I really appreciate your to-the-point announcements of new scientific papers. I also don't have as much time as I'd like to follow and digest all of the threads on Vortex, but I don't mind if the flow goes on... Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 18 23:32:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02301; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:25:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:25:46 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:37:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd249c$4d7d5740$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9SXVU1.0.pZ.r_lmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 18, 1998 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail >Horace Heffner wrote: > >> Bye for now, >> > >But Horace, WE LOVE YA, MAN! AGREED!! But, a "Hi Oh Silver Awaay",with the tow-head lad shouting after him, Shame! Come Back,Shame! as he emptied both barrels of the chrome-plated 12 gage at the horse's-ass fading into the Sunset,over the head of his mom lying by a cactus with her long blonde curls embracing her heaving,expectant,bosom.....! Where's your imagination, Frank? :-) Regards, Frederick > >Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 05:46:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19366; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 05:41:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 05:41:34 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:14:50 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <34c2a914.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Vortex is vortex after all! Resent-Message-ID: <"YPPeO3.0.Vk4.CWrmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear true vortexers, Can please somebody from this brotherhood get the following true vortex paper: M. Goldshtik, F. Hussain, R J Rao: The vortex liquid piston machine and some other vortex technologies. In: Sadhana--Academy Proceedings in Engineering Sciences 22: Part 3 (JUN 1997) pp 323-367 The authors are from Univ. Houston, Dept. Mech. Eng, Houston, from a unit called VORTEX CENTER. It could be interesting. Thank you in advance, Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 07:35:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03417; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:26:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:26:15 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:20:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: They work ...Re: where's the fallacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aDysm3.0.Ir.M2tmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: These things work because, as the rails get farther apart the center of gravity of the ball is LOWER. So you can incline the rails slightly and it APPEARS the ball is going up hill... but is really is going lower and lower down hill and the rails become wider. Everyone get it? J On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Jack - > > > Where's the fallacy? > > I don't know, but it must be the same one that makes people think there's > an unbalanced force on those gizmos with balls rolling around inside a > circular track having rail spacing tapered on one side. The ball goes slow > on one side, fast on the other. There's a web site on it, someone might > know the URL. > > But do they really work? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 08:09:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08780; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:02:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:02:13 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C378FA.81A7CB15 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:02:02 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Re: Buried by Vortex mail References: <34C1AC4A.CB1 loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OC8ZX3.0.092.3atmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob Horst wrote: > I analyzed the mail to look at the distribution by sender, and found > that well over half the volume was sent by the top 7 senders: > > 158 Horace Heffner > 75 Frederic Sparber > 55 Robin van Spaandonk > 44 Rich Murray > 39 Rick Monteverde > 34 Jerry Decker > 33 John Schnurer > ___ > 438/779 Fellow vorts- I don't see this as a problem (apart from one obvious privilege abuser IMO). I send my sincere congratulations and unending thanks to six of the seven all star content contributors listed above. Replies of unsubscribing and reduced participation in response to this post are alarming and quite disheartening to me. I was just beginning to see things as relatively 'back to normal' after the last brain drain. BY ALL MEANS POSSIBLE PLEASE CONTINUE TO PARTICIPATE AT WHAT EVER LEVEL YOU FEEL APPROPRIATE !!!! ( within the rules of course ) Good content is hard to find. A well rounded and open minded group to dynamically share it with is that much harder. We have something unique here. Let us do our best to keep it alive as innovation is never where you look for it. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 08:28:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17989; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:24:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:24:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD62A xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: BLP Run 7 plans Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:23:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"kUS8u.0._O4.Nvtmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott I would think a couple of runs, starting with a minimal system, such as a vacuum only filament-on run, followed by a run in which you release as pure as possible H2 gas, but no catalyst, etc. where you change one thing at a time between runs. You seem to be heading this way. Hank > ---------- > From: Scott Little[SMTP:little eden.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, January 17, 1998 9:07 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: BLP Run 7 plans > > Thanks to all for constructive discussion and suggestions. Especially > to > Fred S. who has been hammering away at me to accept the fact that > there > must be some agent, probably either H2O or O, present in my system > which is > attacking the W filament. > > I am presently planning to remove the catalyst container, clean up the > chamber to remove any remaining traces of catalyst, and perform Run 7 > with > (1) no catalyst and (2) the high-temp bakeout. If the W filament > still > erodes rapidly, we will have proof that something residual (probably > H2O > since a little of it can cause a continual erosion via the water > cycle) in > the system is attacking it. We can then start adding getters to the > chamber in an attempt to eliminate the problem. > > Right about now, I'm wishing our vacuum system had a residual gas > analyzer. > I've been thinking about getting one for some time and it would be > extremely useful right now as it would provide positive identification > and > semi-quantization of the gases present in the chamber. > > Further comments and suggestions for Run 7 would be greatly > appreciated. > > > Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little > 1406 Old Wagon Road > Austin TX 78746 > 512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 09:16:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22016; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:08:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:08:46 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:03:46 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Buried by Vortex mail Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801191207_MC2-2FE2-9C43 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ssTUF.0.pN5.TYumq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex >From time to time people complain about the volume of information available on Internet and the number of messages in discussion groups. I do not understand why. You can ignore or delete messages as easily as you turn the page of newspaper. I do not feel oppressed by the weight of unread columns in my daily New York Times and Yomiuri newspapers. The county recycles the newsprint, so what harm? Bob Horst said he left the messages unread for a few weeks and it took "15 minutes or so to download, even over my ISDN line." Before I go on vacation I put a stop order on the newspapers and e-mail. But, in any case, so what if the computer was busy for 15 minutes? Computers don't care how hard they work. I hope that Bob's e-mail service provider is not charging him by the minute! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 09:19:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24033; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:10:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:10:04 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <311ace55.34c386e0 aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:01:18 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: fuel savings Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"XaBeh1.0.Pt5.dZumq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here is a risky but potentially explosive Penny stock. The company is BAT international (BAAT) They have technology for diesel engines that will produse 80 MPG in a diesel car with just "bolt on" modifications. They test run their first car last week and it got 92 mpg but the test was stopped short due to an oil leek in the engine. The stock went from 9 cents to 49 cents, but then back down to 25 cents when the test wasn't successful 100%, but they did get 92 mpg. You can look them up under Yahoo quotes then go to the news section, for the whole story and picture of the GEO car they used. I bought a small amount Friday when the price fell, and I'm probably going to buy more before the price goes back up. BAAT also has technology for electric cars Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 09:22:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25203; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:16:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:16:28 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980117230726.0083d5f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:15:25 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"IQ6Cw3.0.j96.ffumq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Some thoughts: 1. A long shot: Do these filaments come from "conventional" incandescent bulbs, or might they be "halogen" bulbs? If halogen, then the W filament might have some tungsten halide on it. However, I would expect any W halide to evaporate away during your bakeout. 2. Can you do X-ray fluorescence on the material deposited near your filament? I don't know what is the sensitivity of XRF to oxygen, F, Cl, Br, I, etc. An identification of some element other than W in the deposit might give us a clue to what's going on. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 09:30:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24373; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:19:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:19:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980119112043.00a7e7b4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:20:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Run 8 - underway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZbFfZ2.0.ly5.siumq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Hamdi, Fred, Hank, Tom, John S, Frank, etc. for constructive suggestions. Fred's latest won out and I am set up to fill the chamber with Ar gas instead of H for this run. If the filament still erodes, am I safe in concluding that the water cycle is my nemesis? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 09:41:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26829; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:27:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:27:44 -0800 Message-ID: <34C37F94.59AF earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:30:12 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp Subject: Britz: The Miles Rebuttal, still missing Content-Type: message/news Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"sytIX1.0.0Z6.Fqumq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Path: nntp.earthlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!wnfeed!worldnet.att.net!205.252.116.205!howland.erols.net!recycled.news.erols.com!news.net.uni-c.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!kemi.aau.dk!britz From: "d.b" Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion Subject: Re: The Miles Rebuttal, still missing Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:12:27 +0100 Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. at Aarhus University Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: kemi.aau.dk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: britz kemi.aau.dk In-Reply-To: On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, d.b wrote: > A few weeks ago it was stated in this group that the rebuttal by Mel > Miles to the papers by the Jones group in J. Phys. Chem, now a few > years ago, was being held up by Jones himself. He was said to insist > on certain changes in Miles' MS. I could not believe that, for two reasons: > 1. I know Steve Jones wouldn't act like that; in particular it was he and I > who persuaded the Editor (El Sayed) to reconsider his stance and give Miles > another go. > 2. No editor would let an author who polemicised someone, to critique that > person's rebuttal (he/she might let him/her see it, for a possible > re-rebuttal, that's fairly common). > > Well, I have checked with Steve Jones, and I was right, he certainly > is not holding the rebuttal up by any demands on his part, and > wouldn't think of doing so. Whatever the reason for the holdup, it > does therefore not lie with Steve Jones. There has been a bit of reaction to this, I am not sure where but the person concerned, a certain CNF enthusiast, waxed somewhat sarcastic on the above. I can now qualify what I wrote earlier, having had some email correspondence with the editor of the journal, Dr. El-Sayed. It is true that Steve Jones is not trying to change Miles' MS, but it is also true that there may be a re-rebuttal by Jones, and therefore he has been given the rebuttal to read. This is perfectly normal and in fact necessary. It has been argued that Miles was not given this courtesy in the first place, but this is not true; the Jones et al papers were given to a colleague of Miles, who did not pass them on to Miles straight away; you can't blame Jones for that. Personally, I don't see the need for a re-rebuttal by Jones, it is only delaying the rebuttal by Miles and I doubt that El-Sayed will be keen on another response by Miles. But I am not calling the tune here. -- Dieter Britz. Visit me at http://www.kemi.aau.dk/~db NB this ^^ means chemistry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 09:55:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27968; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:31:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:31:51 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C38DB7.3FDF3630 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:30:31 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SXglu1.0.vq6.3uumq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > WHAT SHOULD BE THE OFFICIAL SUBJECT AREAS OF VORTEXB-L? > > VortexB commands of course are just like Vortex-L's, but of course with > the option of unsubscribing from vortexB without affecting our vortex-L > subscriptions. To leave vortexB, send your unsubscribe command to > vortexb-L-request eskimo.com, or, if using the digest, > vortexb-digest-request eskimo.com The only thing I see wrong with this approach is how will one effectively and reliably decide relevance? I look forward to the odd *subscribed* bystander that notices a *fundamental* problem that no one else directly involved can. I think this is one of the strengths of this particular list. Segregating results discussions to another list defeats this advantage IMO and I think in time would erode into excessive cross posts. I see most subscribing to both lists anyway, so what would be the advantage? Semantics? I see most of the problems coming from lack of self discretion and lack of consideration of others, how would a new list change that? It wont. Is the effort worthwhile then? No. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 10:08:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03654; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:03:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:03:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801191803.KAA03623 mx2.eskimo.com> Date: 19 Jan 1998 12:57 EST Sender: "Gene Batten" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Gene Batten" Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! Resent-Message-ID: <"3cuii3.0._u.oLvmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why have another vortex? This one is working pretty good. Yes, we get a little "off track" occasionally, but then someone eventually "speaks up" and things are brought back in-line. Such is the normal "ebb and flow" human interactions. No matter how many "lists" are provided, the bandwith will expand to fill it, just like junk in my basement. I vote for one Vortex. Leave it to subscribers to manage their own e-mail inbox. ...Gene Batten In message "Message from vortex B !": > William Beaty wrote: > > > WHAT SHOULD BE THE OFFICIAL SUBJECT AREAS OF VORTEXB-L? > > > > VortexB commands of course are just like Vortex-L's, but of course with > > the option of unsubscribing from vortexB without affecting our vortex-L > > subscriptions. To leave vortexB, send your unsubscribe command to > > vortexb-L-request eskimo.com, or, if using the digest, > > vortexb-digest-request eskimo.com > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 10:12:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00691; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:51:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:51:55 -0800 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD62B xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:50:48 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"RbQge.0.AA.sAvmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi I have just signed up for a course on the internet on General Relativity. It is through Montana State University. The text it uses is "Scouting for Black Holes", by Taylor and Wheeler, and it seems quite good. I have read the first chapter so far, the course starts next monday. Check out http://www.montana.edu/wwwxs Hank > ---------- > From: Hamdi Ucar[SMTP:hamdix verisoft.com.tr] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Sunday, January 18, 1998 8:25 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: re ZPE Hamdi has the correct idea! > > Puthoff wrote: > > However, the literature is full of alternative explanations, > > including the (observable) fact that the ZPE does not curve space. > Rather, > > the stress-energy tensor on the RHS of Einstein's eqns is the > stress-energy of > > the departure from a homogeneous isotropic ZPE distribution. > > Hi Hall, > > This afternoon I studied a bit a introduction of GR, to able use the > tensor concept and see my novel hypothesis on gravity how be > described with tensors or not be applicable. I had not yet able fully > cover the tensor concept, and not answered these questions. > > My hypothesis divers from GR in two points: > > 1) matter curve the spacetime directionally in microscopic scale > > 2) given direction is determined my the kinetics of the matter or > dependent how the energy is flowing > > 3) Statistical summation of these deformations gives non-vanishing > curvature of spacetime macroscopically as described on GR. > > Probable results: > > - Curvature of space to mass ratio (gravitational constant) is a > special case for ordinary matter, by its (random) distribution of it > microscopic effects. Non-random structures of matter or of energy > could curve space-time on different ratios and different manner. So > ZPE could affect or not affect the spacetime not as thought > conventionally. > > - Equivalence principle may need be revised. > > > Two days ago, a related paper (I think) was published on lanl archive. > I had no time to announced it. Maybe you will examine it: > > > > > General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, > abstract > gr-qc/9801051 > > From: S. Antoci > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:29:21 GMT (23kb) > > Microscopic Fields and Macroscopic Averages in Einstein's Unified > Field Theory > > Authors: S. Antoci > Comments: 22 pages, plain TeX > Journal-ref: Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie, Vol. 21, 11-38 > (1996) > > The relation between microscopic and macroscopic entities in the > generally covariant theories is > considered, and it is argued that a sensible definition of the > macroscopic averages requires a restriction > of the allowed transformations of coordinates. Spacetime averages > of the geometric objects of Einstein's > unified field theory are then defined, and the reconstruction of > some features of macroscopic reality from > hypothetic microscopic structures is attempted. It is shown how a > fluctuating microscopic behaviour of the > metric field can rule the constitutive relation for > electromagnetism both in vacuo and in nondispersive > material media. Moreover, if both the metric and the skew tensor > density that represents the electric > displacement and the magnetic field are assumed to possess a wavy > microscopic structure, nonvanishing > generalized force densities can appear in the continuum. They > originate from a resonance process, in > which at least three waves need to be involved. This process only > occurs if the wavevectors fulfil the > three-wave resonance condition, so ubiquitous in quantum physics. > The wavy behaviour of the metric is > essential for the occurrence of this resonance phenomenon. > > > > If you interested more in my hypothesis I can repost you previous > posting to vortex in this subject. > > Ironically, as originally claimed there should be upper limit of ZPE > density for cosmological reason if ZPE should be compatible with GR, > this time I opened a way to remove this limit as you also mentioned. > > > Regards, > > hamdi ucar > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 10:22:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08418; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:14:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:14:05 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:08:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Vo B Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qvhwq2.0.F32.hVvmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., My suggestions for Vo-B .... these are not to be thought of a 'restrictions' ... but rather as features or inclusions, or areas to be encouraged: a] hardball, nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders engineering b] a 'sister www site' so people can put up pictures c] if you use some magic term like :SCALAR WAVES: ... then you also ought to be able to put up SOMETHING that removes it from the vapor ware category. For YEARS I called Tom Beardon on the phone and asked for the hardball. I NEVER got it. I have not called him in at least three years. d] if you can, a kit would be nice JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 10:27:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06654; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:15:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:15:56 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <452d88e0.34c3945c aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:58:50 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Subject: the gravity associated with ZP energy. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"nvSZa2.0.pd1.JXvmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hal, I'm glad you engaged in a discussion about my ZP energy comments. How would you detect ZPE? If ZPE is not subject to the week, strong, electromagnetic, and other forces the only means to detect it would be from its gravity. As you mentioned the curvature space time metric does not allow for enormous amounts of ordinary energy. So we must conclude that ZP energy has no gravity. This is where our ideas begin to differ, however, we are close. We agree that the positive energy of the universe is balanced by a negative gravitational potential. We have concluded that the energy of the universe is zero. If there is no "negative" energy there cannot be any postive energy. Otherwise energy would not have been conserved at the moment of creation. Postitive energy must be accompanied by an equivalent amount of negative gravitational potential. ref. Znidarsic the zero energy universe on Elektromagnum Index Page, created July 1 So it appears that free space contains 'incomplete:" ZP energy. It has the potential to become real energy its just missing a gravitational field. This is were our ideas become very close. We agree here. I now ask why does all energy have gravity and a monentum energy relationship of E/c? I have concluded that there is a symmetry between force and gravity. To have gravity we must have force and vice verse. As photons (energy) travels at light speed c, the photons experience a force as they accelerate through Hubble's constant. This force produces a gravitational field of the correct magnitude. The math is at: The Source of Inertial and Grav. Mass So it appears that if zero point energy has no gravity it must not be moving. If we attach a gravitational field the ZPE become real energy and moves away at c. The energy now experiences a force that produces the gravitational field associated with all postive energy. I believe that this is profound link. This is why I am conducting superconductive experiments. I believe energy can spring from nothingness. As you said Hal, "It happened once." The genesis process conserves energy. It does not, however, conserve angular momentum. A spin two graviton and a spin one photon must me simultaneously emitted. Extra angular momentum can be supplied by phonons with a superconductor. There is a profound link between superconductivity, cold fusion, and zero point energy extraction. It sounds so simple but, sorry to say, my ZP energy experiments have not produced any anomalous. Nor have Hal's and Little's. At times the whole thing becomes quite discouraging. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 10:49:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16289; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:37:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:37:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:37:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199801191837.KAA13594 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: the gravity associated with ZP energy. Resent-Message-ID: <"8NdW_3.0.I-3.Vrvmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Hal, I'm glad you engaged in a discussion about my ZP energy comments. How >would you detect ZPE? If ZPE is not subject to the week, strong, >electromagnetic, and other forces the only means to detect it would be from >its gravity. > >As you mentioned the curvature space time metric does not allow for enormous >amounts of ordinary energy. This is only true if you think that gravity "attracts" energy to energy. If instead, you think that gravity is the result of the interaction of wave energy nearby with wave energy arriving from afar that is frequency interfering, then there is no limit to the energy density on that count. G, then, is not a measure of how hard this rock pulls on this earth. It is a measure of the mass of the balance of the universe because you are measuring how hard the waves emitted by all of that mass are pushing on the matter here locally due to frequency interference and filtering. This is why the universe is so near flat, and yet is slightly open. The initial conditions to do that with attractive gravity are extremely sensitive to divergence. That is why cosmologists think the universe is perfectly flat. If it were not, then we live in a special time, IF, gravity is attractive. Also, note that G, measured by three excellent labs came out to be different values in the different labs, with different view factors to deep space. And, their error boxes did not mutually contain their respective measurements. ie, either theory is incorrect, or they underestimated their error boxes. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 11:08:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20772; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:52:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:52:41 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: John Steck Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34C38DB7.3FDF3630 ecg.csg.mot.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"J22X21.0.T45.u3wmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 19-Jan-98, John Steck wrote: I agree with John. I don't think we need VortexB. If someone doesn't have time to read all the messages he can be his own best filter. No amount of reorginazition will solve an individuals time problem. I am sorry Horace left as his "stream of conscienceness" posts, while long, often present some new way of looking at things. I say leave vortex-l as is. ___Ron >The only thing I see wrong with this approach is how will one >effectively and reliably decide relevance? I look forward to the odd >*subscribed* bystander that notices a *fundamental* problem that no one >else directly involved can. I think this is one of the strengths of >this particular list. Segregating results discussions to another list >defeats this advantage IMO and I think in time would erode into >excessive cross posts. >I see most subscribing to both lists anyway, so what would be the >advantage? Semantics? >I see most of the problems coming from lack of self discretion and lack >of consideration of others, how would a new list change that? It wont. >Is the effort worthwhile then? No. >-- >John E. Steck >Prototype Tooling >Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 11:12:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20431; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:51:21 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:49:25 -0700 From: Lynn Kurtz Subject: A solution to the mail volume "problem". X-Sender: kurtz imap2.asu.edu (Unverified) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Message-id: <199801191850.LAA13151 smtp1.asu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"---AU1.0.5_4.c2wmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I posted about this a day or so ago and I haven't seen it so I apologize ahead of time if it is a repeat. I haven't seen anyone point out that one easy solution to the "download" problem is to use the IMAP protocol instead of POP protocol in your email client. Some clients that come to mind that will do this are: Netscape communicator 4 Eudora Pro 4 Simeon Pine I am sure there are others. What IMAP offers is the capability to just download the subject line headers while leaving the message body and any attachments on the server. You can then select which ones you want to read and selectively download them. The others can be marked as read and deleted from the server without ever downloading them. --Lynn From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 11:42:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19832; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:38:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:38:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C3AB94.48DA interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:37:56 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! References: <34C38DB7.3FDF3630@ecg.csg.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VSh7i2.0.lr4.2lwmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > Is the effort worthwhile then? No. > I agree, John! Everyone active in vortex-l is interested in fresh new energy ideas. IMHO, if we all retract into specialized "pigeon holes" valuable idea exchange will suffer at least a bit. Look what naturally happens on V-l anyway - as soon as a "meaty" experimental effort gets underway, most eyes turn that way. The BLP runs by Scott is a good example. Look at the traffic during the SMOT era - the list was consumed by the idea (may it rest in peace!). Also, note the bandwidth devoted to Jim O's FTL tests and Rick and Horaces' "quickie" experiments. I think GOOD THINGS happen on this list if we just follow Bill's reasonable rules. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 12:00:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02138; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:42:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:42:47 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:42:32 GMT Message-Id: <199801191942.TAA14236 popmail.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dominic Murphy Subject: Re: Gravity Resent-Message-ID: <"AleJe1.0.FX.rowmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I know how you feel, man. At 15:38 11/01/98 -0500, you wrote: > > Dear Vo., > > In no particular order : > > a] I, for one, do NOT know what gravity is. > b] The gravity research has severly hurt me financially, I cannot >even pay the back rent on the dewar. We have not 'turned it on its side' >yet. Even to do a run I have to arrange to borrow a scale. We have >reproducible results. Many have SAID, even in 'public' on Vo, the can put >their hands on big dollars, right away if we can show reproducible >results, but this has not happened, even though we captured it on video >tape and this was aired on German Educational TV several times. I have >paid to have PAL format converted to NTSC. I could send one to any party >which can deliver, but I am not holding my breath. So no more on this >except I know I am not alone, and I am not crying 'poor boy', the work >costs money, and those with disposable liquid income or funds do not >generally spend for primary work. One or two notable examples on Vo have >made contribution to this effort, for which I am grateful. Bottom line, >it goes slow, it is like owning a boat or airplane ... it will >continuously sink money. There are others who have posted to Vo, or >written to me, who have spent more on investigating 'Vo stuff' such as >energy related. This method will NOT do O/U, as far as I know... it >requires energy to run, far more than you can get out by turning a wheel >or moving a fluid. > c] One MODEL ... and analog, if you will, but NOT an explanation >is to think of the earth as a transluscent hollow sphere. There is a >light on the inside. If this 'Light' shines on something then there is >gravitational attraction. If the YBCO disk is like a neutral density >filter then it casts a 'pale shadow' .... of about a 2% reduction in the >magnitude of gravity. I have asked "does dark [or darkeness] fall off >with the square of the distance?" > In my opinion this is in NO WAY what happens .... but is is a >fair, and by fair I mean 'just OK as opposed to grand and perfect' type >of a "picture model" .... not a model of what happens, but a model to >describe observed effects only. > d] in closing [for now :) ...] I do not know if gravity pushes >out or in. In charge could be exhibited as radial coherent effect, then >a 'transluscent neutral density 2% filter' would exhibit a maybe similar >empirical effect on two attracting charged spheres. > > Wish I could help more.... but I don't KNOW more. > > e] The immediate marketable application of a 2% modification is for >satellite station keeping. This has a good chance of success from >observation so far. But there is a LONG way to go and negative funds to >spend on it. > > > JHS > > > Dominic Murphy 44+ (0)181 580 2715 0973 886770 (mobile) dominic dircon.co.uk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 13:00:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18248; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:53:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:53:37 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:53:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! Priority: normal References: <199801190657.BAA11717 mail.enter.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"_zI1U3.0.mS4.Drxmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > WHAT SHOULD BE THE OFFICIAL SUBJECT AREAS OF VORTEXB-L? > > VortexB commands of course are just like Vortex-L's, but of course with > the option of unsubscribing from vortexB without affecting our vortex-L > subscriptions. To leave vortexB, send your unsubscribe command to > vortexb-L-request eskimo.com, or, if using the digest, > vortexb-digest-request eskimo.com > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website How about having vortex be more devoted to "OU" types of discussions and having vortexB be devoted to any new and interesting physics, even if there are no potential OU benefits. Things like cold fusion would be a vortex issue, and things like "gravity modification" experiments would be mainly a vortexB issue. Anyone like this suggestion? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 14:24:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03204; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:15:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:15:47 -0800 Message-ID: <34C4F8E1.2932 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:20:01 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! References: <199801190657.BAA11717 mail.enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"U0FH-1.0.vn.G2zmq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jay Olson wrote: > How about having vortex be more devoted to "OU" types of discussions > and having vortexB be devoted to any new and interesting physics, > even if there are no potential OU benefits. Things like cold fusion > would be a vortex issue, and things like "gravity modification" > experiments would be mainly a vortexB issue. Anyone like this > suggestion? > > JAY OLSON Or, better still, name it VortexBS and let it be the off-topic and humor section. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 14:30:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13740; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:14:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:14:36 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C3CFBF.5A2F48A4 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:12:15 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! References: <199801190657.BAA11717 mail.enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9kcae3.0.bM3.91zmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jay Olson wrote: > How about having vortex be more devoted to "OU" types of discussions > and having vortexB be devoted to any new and interesting physics, > even if there are no potential OU benefits. Things like cold fusion > would be a vortex issue, and things like "gravity modification" > experiments would be mainly a vortexB issue. Anyone like this > suggestion? Hmmm. Any chance they are inter-related? O/U seems to be a general term to describe things we don't understand that do more than what they are supposed too. It generally stops being refered to as O/U when we finally understand where the perceived O/U is coming from. Yes? In the small likelihood the same mechanism is at work for all, don't you think is somewhat rash to assume they are not related? I don't take the varied topics discussed here lightly. I don't think it is coincidence that they are discussed here at all. Are CF effects caused by hydrinos? leptons? localized gravity? resonance structures? ZPE? micro plasmoids? energy vortexes? Do you see my point? When does one end and another begin? 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 15:17:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19467; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:47:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:47:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801192245.RAA24641 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:35:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: VortexBS Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34C4F8E1.2932 bellsouth.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"BCYO3.0.3m4.pVzmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 20 Jan 98 at 11:20, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > "Terry J. Blanton" wrote: > > Or, better still, name it VortexBS and let it be the off-topic and humor > section. Well, I like the name -- but I like more the occasional spice of humour in the regular Vortex stew. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 15:18:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21630; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:03:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:03:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C3F6E0.6F22 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:59:12 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! References: <199801191803.KAA03623 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"F03oM.0.sH5.9lzmq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! Since a vote was requested, I don't feel guilty for posting a response....... I agree with Gene Batten when he wrote; > No matter how many "lists" are provided, the bandwith will expand to > fill it, just like junk in my basement. > I vote for one Vortex. Leave it to subscribers to manage their own > e-mail inbox. here, here....I 2nd that opinion.....the nuggets would be that much harder to find if spread out over many lists....one saving grace of multiple lists is people who cross post good info so that others won't miss it. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 15:45:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17436; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:40:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:40:31 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 plans Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:11:01 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2505$99646680$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"FoO4a3.0.5G4.kH-mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Schaffer gav.gat.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 10:24 AM Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 plans >Some thoughts: > >1. A long shot: Do these filaments come from "conventional" incandescent >bulbs, or might they be "halogen" bulbs? If halogen, then the W filament >might have some tungsten halide on it. However, I would expect any W halide >to evaporate away during your bakeout. A Good Point, Michael. The Halide WX6 would do the same as the water cycle: 3 H2 + WX6 -----> 6HX + W on the cooler reducing surfaces, then 6HX + W on the hot filament -----> volitile WX6 + 3 H2. repeating the cycle transporting the tungsten from the filament. Great for CVD! :-) Regards, Frederick > >2. Can you do X-ray fluorescence on the material deposited near your >filament? I don't know what is the sensitivity of XRF to oxygen, F, Cl, Br, >I, etc. An identification of some element other than W in the deposit >might give us a clue to what's going on. > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 15:45:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17761; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:40:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:40:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: The Halogen Cycle Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:18:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd250f$04189920$23a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0154_01BD24D4.702E6F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kt7EV2.0.5L4.0I-mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01BD24D4.702E6F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rprusk/htmls/HalogenCycle.html ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01BD24D4.702E6F80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Halogen Cycle.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Halogen Cycle.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rprusk/htmls/HalogenCycle.html Modified=40ACA9EA0E25BD0170 ------=_NextPart_000_0154_01BD24D4.702E6F80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 16:06:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23453; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:59:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:59:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980119180033.00b90870 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:00:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 7 - results are in Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3VyrB1.0.Lk5.nZ-mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Forget what I said earlier about Run 8...we aren't there yet. But Run 7 is complete and here are the results: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run7.html Things are still not very clear. I am surprised the filament is so "perfect" when running under the initial vacuum conditions. If there was residual water in the chamber, it should start attacking the filament even when we're just pumping on the chamber. What is it about closing off the chamber and filling it with gas that kicks the erosion into high gear? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 16:09:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24968; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:03:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:03:37 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34C3D9DE.226EE10C mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:55:27 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: the gravity associated with ZP energy. References: <199801191837.KAA13594 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vNNc21.0.266.Od-mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: ... Also, note that G, measured by three excellent labs came out to be different values in the different labs, with different view factors to deep space. And, their error boxes did not mutually contain their respective measurements. ie, either theory is incorrect, or they underestimated their error boxes. Hi Ross, I'd like to look at the numbers. Could you give me the references? It would be great if this information were posted somewhere. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 16:09:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25697; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:05:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:05:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980119180505.00a952b4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:05:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 plans In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980117230726.0083d5f0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YeIXy2.0.AH6.Jf-mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:15 1/19/98 -0800, Mike S wrote: >1. A long shot: Do these filaments come from "conventional" incandescent >bulbs... Yes...cheap automotive brake lamps. >2. Can you do X-ray fluorescence on the material deposited near your >filament? I don't know what is the sensitivity of XRF to oxygen, F, Cl, Br, >I, etc. The type I have access to is good for Cl, Br, I....not good for O, F, and other very light elements. Such an analysis could be quite revealing. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 16:28:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29369; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:19:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:19:43 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:19:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199801200019.QAA15201 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: the gravity associated with ZP energy. Resent-Message-ID: <"dHyIT2.0.kA7.Ts-mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ross Tessien wrote: > > ... > > Also, note that G, measured by three excellent labs > came out to be different values in the different labs, > with different view factors to deep space. > And, their error boxes did not mutually contain their > respective measurements. ie, either theory is incorrect, > or they underestimated their error boxes. > >Hi Ross, > >I'd like to look at the numbers. Could you give >me the references? It would be great if this >information were posted somewhere. > >Jack Smith The results were posted in the spring of 95 I think it was now! time flies. Any way, I think the universities were Wuppertal or something like that in Germany, Upper Hut in New Zealand, and another in Germany. Science News, Scientific American, and several other technical journals had articles, ie probably Nature. Search out "Big G" "gravitational constant" on the net and you ought to get it. Use Upper Hut too, or just search out that university to get links to the other researchers. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:30:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11645; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:15:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:15:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C3FA73.183CDAE6 ro.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:14:28 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: Re: VortexBS X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199801192245.RAA24641 mail.enter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"TVnL2.0.tr2.xg_mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh, how wonderfully ironic that a post complaining about the large volume of generated e-mail should itself generate enough responses to bog down my system! Now this is *true* replication! ;^} -- Patrick V. Reavis Student at Large /\ / \ / G \ ~~~~~~~~ DELTA-G From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:31:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11025; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:17:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:17:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:12:08 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 - results are in In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980119180033.00b90870 mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yAuLj1.0.Bi2.xi_mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Are you SCRUPULOUSLY drying all the gasses? filament temp up SLOW ... while monitoring current? If you monitor current you should be able to see some effect of corrosion. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:32:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13612; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:26:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:26:14 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: SGTE homepage Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:15:34 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2540$e8b124e0$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2506.3C524CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"jfXhU2.0.WK3.lq_mq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2506.3C524CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://klara.met.kth.se/sgte/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2506.3C524CE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="SGTE homepage.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SGTE homepage.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://klara.met.kth.se/sgte/ Modified=80333ED54025BD01E9 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2506.3C524CE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:38:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14027; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:25:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:25:08 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: SGTE Phase diagram collection Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:19:27 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2541$73a902c0$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2506.C74A2AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"gHpVd1.0.2R3.op_mq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2506.C74A2AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.met.kth.se/tc/pd/ ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2506.C74A2AC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="SGTE Phase diagram collection.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SGTE Phase diagram collection.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.met.kth.se/tc/pd/ Modified=4090CF674125BD012A ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2506.C74A2AC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:42:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17855; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:13 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 - results are in Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:38:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd2544$1289b360$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"67YYV2.0.qM4.400nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday, January 19, 1998 7:54 PM Scott Little wrote: :Things are still not very clear. I am surprised the filament is so :"perfect" when running under the initial vacuum conditions. If there was :residual water in the chamber, it should start attacking the filament even :when we're just pumping on the chamber. What is it about closing off the :chamber and filling it with gas that kicks the erosion into high gear? Some thoughts: -The filament was at 15 watts earlier in the run. -30 watts seems pretty high power input for an automotive brake lamp, what is the published rating for the bulb? -You can usually tell if a bulb is a halogen type by the high temperature construction, the entire internal surface must run at a temperature high enough to prevent the tungsten-halogen compound from condensing on the glass. I don't think most brake lamps are halogen but ?? - Even if you are within the normal lamp specs, the lamp may be designed for operation in the presence of the inert filler gas used in many lamps. - Try operating the lamp at 30 watts earlier in the run i.e. before the gas fill introduces additional variables. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:43:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17895; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: databases Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:33:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2543$6f54b1e0$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2508.C2F5D9E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"54k_92.0.XN4.D00nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2508.C2F5D9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.met.kth.se/tc/tdb/ ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2508.C2F5D9E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="databases.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="databases.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.met.kth.se/tc/tdb/ Modified=00D1485A4325BD0199 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2508.C2F5D9E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 17:50:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16123; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:39:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:39:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Thermo Calc Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:34:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2543$923ab740$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD2508.E5DBDF40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"uMz9Q.0.qx3.E10nq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD2508.E5DBDF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.met.kth.se/tc/ ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD2508.E5DBDF40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Thermo Calc.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Thermo Calc.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.met.kth.se/tc/ Modified=206CD8824325BD010C ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD2508.E5DBDF40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 18:06:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22378; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:53:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:53:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 - results are in Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:49:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2545$b808d680$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"r3D6t2.0.YT5.RE0nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 5:03 PM Subject: BLP Run 7 - results are in >Forget what I said earlier about Run 8...we aren't there yet. But Run 7 is >complete and here are the results: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run7.html > >Things are still not very clear. I am surprised the filament is so >"perfect" when running under the initial vacuum conditions. If there was >residual water in the chamber, it should start attacking the filament even >when we're just pumping on the chamber. What is it about closing off the >chamber and filling it with gas that kicks the erosion into high gear? A leak perhaps, that you can stay ahead of whilst pumping? Don't get hung up on the water cycle and ignore O2. Every ordinary incandescent household lightbulb is filled with about 2/3 atmospheres of Argon, they come up to atmospheric pressure at operating temperature. If you don't believe me, stick one in the microwave oven and BE PREPARED for an EXPLOSION! One approach for purging with the argon is fill to 5-10 torr, pump, fill again etc. in short cycles. This might help if you don't have a leak. Also don't think that because the taillight bulbs are cheap that they are not halogen filled. Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 18:08:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22679; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:54:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:54:47 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:49:10 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Listen to George.. BLP Run 7 - results In-Reply-To: <01bd2544$1289b360$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EgToF3.0.BY5.cF0nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, George Holz wrote: > On Monday, January 19, 1998 7:54 PM Scott Little wrote: > > :Things are still not very clear. I am surprised the filament is so ............cut........ > - Try operating the lamp at 30 watts earlier in the run i.e. before the > gas fill introduces additional variables. > > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems > A men! Bench press the lamp in vacuum.... 5 watts. AND: All it has to do is probably get to red! AND: Punch an extra hole... and use a piece of quartz rod as window... use solder glass robbed from lamp, CRT or vacuum tube ... to hold in place CRC has table on the thermal expansion co. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 19:05:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28753; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:52:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:52:31 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP Run 7 - results are in Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:47:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd254d$b6dba780$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9ZmyX2.0.317.f51nq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, Using the equation for the number of molecules striking a given area at a given pressure: N/area * time = .25*(N/V)*(2kT/M)^1/2*sec With a pomp-out tube area you can approximate the leak rate of air (or out-gassing)with the indicated 1.0E-7 torr pump rate. Then W + O2 = WO2 0.0184gr 0.0032gr (6.03E19 molecules) It doesn't take much to eat up a filament. A very expensive, time consuming leak detector. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 19:29:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04400; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:24:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:24:49 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; BLP Run 7 reults Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:19:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2552$3ec53720$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"0dvWy.0.d41.-Z1nq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, The "welding grade" Argon O2 Content? Since Ar is about 1% in air and it is gotten from LN2-LOX plants, it could be quite high in O2. You could getter it on the fill line with a hot tube containing Mg or Al. You could even heat the tube (SS) with a torch. Cheaper than buying Reagent Grade Argon. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 22:15:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03602; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:09:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:09:47 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Davis To: John Steck Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:09:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34C378FA.81A7CB15 ecg.csg.mot.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Art Bell repeating on free energy, tonight! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"0j9v_.0.7u.e-3nq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 19 22:25:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24598; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:21:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:21:58 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: Frank Chilton CC: mind-l aquathought.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, rife-list@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:22:22 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34C37EA3.6B59 pacbell.net> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: Believe it or not (fwd) --- I BELIEVE IT IS POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"I3x8V2.0.406.4A4nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 19-Jan-98, Frank Chilton wrote: >It is nice that people feel so creative. But they may be chancing much >more risk than they think. A short from the coil to the body could be >harmful or fatal. >Having invented, studied and spent a lot of time on magnetoanesthesia, >using pulsed magnetic fields, on monkeys --- I wonder if those willing >self-subjects had any idea how hard it is to control the induced >currents which flow from the changing magnetic fields? Putting coils >around the heart is particularly unwise. >Your right Chuck, I found it interesting.Frank Well, I don't think this comment sould stop with me ;) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 01:45:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21854; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:40:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:40:14 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C3CFBF.5A2F48A4 ecg.csg.mot.com> References: <199801190657.BAA11717 mail.enter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:40:28 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! Resent-Message-ID: <"9K1WT2.0.OL5.z37nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts - Just a quick vote of agreement with the comments posted against splitting the list. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 01:59:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24954; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:58:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:58:51 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Copper-Hydrogen Arc, too easy? Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:54:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2589$708d5620$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"XP5OX2.0.k56.QL7nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To:Vortex A low pressure arc in a quartz or ceramic tube containing copper and hydrogen may make Hydrinos, releasing O.U. energy. The unstable copper hydride formed at 400-500 C should facilitate: Cu+ + H2 <----> CuH + H+ and Cu++ + H2 <----> CuH+ + H+ . The 1083 C M.P. and 2567 C B.P. should make it easy to handle. A suitable ballasted power supply should handle the arc. Quartz or ceramic tubes can be water-cooled with a water-jacket, making it simple to do the calorimetry. This might explain the anomalous behavior between copper and hydrogen that C. G. (Guy) Suits noticed in the experiments that he described and published photos of, in the Physics literature in the early-mid 1930's. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 02:06:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25080; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:03:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:03:37 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Fw: Apologies Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 02:59:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd258a$0dc3eb20$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"orGPU.0.o76.tP7nq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: Francis J. Stenger Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 2:03 AM Subject: Re: Apologies >At 9:29 PM 1/19/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>Dear Horace, >> >>If my episode of self-indulgent humor offended you, you have my heartfelt >>apologies. > >I'm not sure what you are talking about? I enjoyed your sense of humor. >I've always emjoyed the banter with the two FJS's. There are no apologies >due me from anyone on vortex. > > >>I think that vortex is (for the most part) one >>of the most gentle groups on the internet. > >That's for sure! > >> >>Your input is an essential part of the of the forum and regardless of the >>moment of insensitivity expressed by any member/members of the group I don't >>think any malice was intended. > >My posting has been going steadily down hill since I don't have the proper >time to give to it. The same is true of my time given (not given) to my >family of late. I was facing the need to bail out for a while anyway, and >the statistics posted only confirmed how much I needed to get away for a >while. > >> >>For me, or for any of us, there are reflections of our mood at any moment >>transmitted and without any ill intent it can be troublesome to others. > >No ill intent perceived. I do think it is fair to say that many are not >happy with the volume of my posting, and the numbers bear out that it was >excesive. I just don't have time or motivation now for quality posts. > >> >>I think you should reconsider coming back to >>participate in the group when your time allows. >> >>With Warmest Regards, Fred Sparber > > >I miss vortex already, but I have overdue house maintenance, income tax >filing, university and scholarship applications to help my son file, water >corp. business (still the only one stupid enough to volunteer for >President), and stacks of unread material, including books with a $32 fine >now owing. I am just plain buried. It is also cabin fever time, and I >suffer from a good case of SAD this time of year, so my productivity drops >as well. I just need a break. Also, I would like to get cable in, as >there's some big things happening in the Middle East I don't want to miss. >Now that I've had time to look at all the things that I haven't been doing >I'm not sure I can afford the time for that either. > >Thanks for the kind words and thoughts. They are much appreciated. > >Feel free to post any of this you want. It is incovenient for me to post >since I unsubscribed a couple days ago. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 03:47:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03327; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:44:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:44:31 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Copper Hydride Literature Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:25:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2596$110e16a0$0e83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD255B.64AF3EA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"iF6GD1.0.up.Uu8nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD255B.64AF3EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://sbchem.sunysb.edu/brochure/faculty/herley.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD255B.64AF3EA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Patrick Herley.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Patrick Herley.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://sbchem.sunysb.edu/brochure/faculty/herley.html Modified=C08A45EB9525BD01F2 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD255B.64AF3EA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 05:08:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13218; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:05:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:05:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120080227.006b65a0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:02:27 +0000 To: rmforall earthlink.net From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Question for Murray ignored Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34C439DD.75C8 earthlink.net> References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9 earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6 earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1 earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8 earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0 earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506 earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276 earthlink.net> <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5 earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4 earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Z86HM1.0.RE3.y3Anq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:45 PM 1/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >Jan. 19, 1998 > >Dear all, If anyone sent me email Monday, Jan. 19, Mr. Murray, I asked a question about the accuracy of your postings. The date was 1/17. One would not want to preliminary assume that you have no interest in accuracy of your posts. Thus, could you please address that matter. I have received email that there are others who are also interested. A duplicate copy is below. If having an answer requires a direct email answer than please add me to whatever list requires said accurate answer. Thank you. Mitchell Swartz ----- copy of 1/17 letter ----------------- At 12:13 AM 1/17/98 -0600, Rich Murray wrote: >Subject: Re: Arata publications -Reply -Reply -Forwarded > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:21:28 -0700 > From: Lee HANSEN > To: rmforall earthlink.net > >Thought you might like to see this exchange between me and Shanahan. > >I strongly suspect the Arata work is very similar to the report from >Kyoto about 4-5 years ago that turned out to be nothing more than a >corroding thermocouple. A small temperature error multiplied by a large >flow rate integrated over a long time easily produces MJ that were never >there. > >Lee Hansen > Regarding the purported corroding thermocouple yielding an Arata-like effect in Kyoto: Exactly which thermocouple corroded yielding an effect similar to the Arata work? (type (e.g. "E", "K", custom, make, material, conditions) Exactly which/whose data from Kyoto is suspect from said corroding thermocouple? Is there a published paper, or other documentation, of this claim regarding the not yet defined work/paper? Thanks. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 07:31:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03161; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:25:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:25:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120092023.006baa44 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:20:23 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 8 plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7EJVA.0.8n.r7Cnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Time to take a break and examine what we've done and where we're going. George Holz points out a problem area: >-30 watts seems pretty high power input for an automotive brake lamp, >what is the published rating for the bulb? Here is some data I collected from a new bulb with R20 (the resistance at 20C) = 0.48 ohms: V i P R R/R20 T (C) 10.91 1.916 20.9 5.69 11.86 2030 12.04 2.011 24.2 5.99 12.47 2150 13.5 2.142 28.9 6.3 13.1 2250 15.1 2.27 34.3 6.65 13.85 2380 The temperatures are based upon the R/R20 ratio and the published resistivity vs T data for W. The main reason I've been running the filament so hot is to get the gas up to the BLP value of 280C. I now think my high filament power is a major source of trouble, especially once the filament begins to thin out a bit. The gas temp reading is rather arbitrary...it is highly dependent upon the location of the probe w.r.t the filament. BLP says the filament needs to be at 2000K, which is only ~1730C. Perhaps I should use that temperature as a limit for the filament power and take other measures to get the gas temp up to 280C (i.e. improve the insulation around the chamber, or use the cartridge heater in conjunction with the filament)...or just live with the knowledge that somewhere near the 1730C filament the gas temp will be 280C...? John S asks: >Are you SCRUPULOUSLY drying all the gasses? The hydrogen gets dried by passing thru the Pd/Ag membrane which only passes H/D atoms. There could be some residual H2O on the walls of the piping after the purifier. On the last hydrogen run (Run 6) I heated that piping mildly with a hot air gun while baking out the chamber...it didn't help a lot. I made no effort to dry the Ar in Run 7. Fred asked, "The "welding grade" Argon O2 Content?" I called the supplier and they say it's 0.9 ppm O2, 0.4 ppm total HC, and 0.1 ppm H2O. For a 0.01 gram filament, a 140cm^3 chamber, T=250C, and p=2torr, I calc 6.3 times more W atoms than O2 molecules...not a very reassuring ratio when you consider that the filament usually burns out due to a fairly localized thinning that occurs in the hottest spot. Halogen: We're talking $0.79-for-a-package-of-two, automotive brake lamps that look IDENTICAL to the ones that Detroit started using in the 50's and 60's. Brass base, Pb-solder on the dual contacts, etc. These are NOT modern high-temp-envelope halogen lamps. I have been thinking about getters and dryers. When valved off, most of the chamber volume is heated to ~250C by the filament and cartridge heater. However there is also a portion of the chamber volume (the pipes that lead out of the calorimeter enclosure to the valves) that is not hot. Perhaps this is where I should locate the getters. At the risk of departure from the BLP recipe, it seems like a little cup of molten K metal in the chamber might be a good way to clean up the vacuum AND provide the necessary K atoms/ions in the vapor state. --- adrift on the Sea of Choices - Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 07:42:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05949; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:39:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:39:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120103706.00c3f5b0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:37:06 -0500 To: rmforall earthlink.net From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Blue: Neutrons from arc welders Cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34743003.455C earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HnDaU3.0.pS1.YKCnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:41 AM 11/20/97 -0600, Rich Murray wrote: >One more fact to bear in mind. Certain types of welding rods are >actually doped with an alpha-emitting radioactive material. You >can, in fact, detect said activity with an ordinary geiger counter. >It just does not have anything to do with neutron emission from the >arc. In particular thorium. The low intensity ionizing radiation helps "strike" the arc by creating a conducting path for the current to avalance through. This is most needed for welding metals that form a thin oxide coating that is electrically insulating, in particular aluminium and magnesium. Note that boron is often used in fluxes for welding aluminium. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 09:04:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25049; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:59:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:59:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Clinton Rawls" To: Subject: Secrets of the Vortex Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:00:29 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980120165709.AAA4045 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"MK81P3.0.G76.CVDnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have been a Vort for several weeks now and I have watching for messages that refer specifically to the vortex phenomenon but I have not seen a single one out of many hundreds of messages. While I am very interested in and can appreciate all the messages on other new energy sources such as BLP and other non-vortex related energy sources, I am most interested in new energy from the secrets of the vortex. The shear number of messages on these other energy sources warrants the creation of new e-mail lists such as BLP-L or ZPE-L or Water-L. Is there anyone out there aware of or are working on technology that taps into the power of the vortex? If so, please validate the name of this e-mail list and share with the rest of us what your latest developments or findings are. Thanks to everyone! Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 09:17:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27628; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:11:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:11:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120105837.00a7f30c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:58:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: post Run 7 photo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1Dc6R3.0.al6.AhDnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You can get a virtual sense of the sights and smells of a BLP run by looking at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/burned.jpg Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 09:19:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27846; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:13:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:13:08 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <2922459a.34c4da2e aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:08:59 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, sarfatti@well.com, nids@anv.net Subject: Nice Quote about Vacuum from Physics Today Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"uc_O-3.0.vo6.PiDnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Hal Puthoff January 1998 *Physics Today* has a nice quote on p. 13 by Frank Wilczek of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton concerning the vacuum: "In the modern theory of elementary particles, we learn that empty space - the vacuum - is in reality a richly structured, though highly symmetrical, medium. Dirac's sea was an early indication of this feature, which is deeply embedded in quantum field theory and the Standard Model. Because the vacuum is a complicated material governed by locality and symmetry, one can learn how to analyze it by studying other such materials - that is, condensed matter. I believe that the upwardly heritable principles of locality and symmetry, together with the quasimaterial nature of apparently empty space, together underlie most and possibly all of the remarkable modern analogies between our theories of microcosmos and macrocosmos." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:22:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10721; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:16:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:16:25 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980120092023.006baa44 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:05:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"CEZVQ1.0.Md2.ldEnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To add my thoughts: 13.5 volt, for which you calculate 2250 C, is about the voltage of an automobile electrical system when the battery is charging, which is the normal running condition. Since brake lights operate only intermittently, it's probably true that the light will not have a long life (such as a thousand hours), but it might have about 100 hours of normal life. Your operation in vacuum, followed by rapid degradation after gas is admitted, points to gas being the source of the problem. However, 2250 C might be high for long life. I sort of recall that old photographic lamps, where they want highest possible filament temperature to make truer white light, are limited to something like 2250 K (that's K, not C!) for tens of hours. Argon is (or used to be, back when I was current with such things) the normal filling gas in ordinary incadescent light bulbs. Therefore, it is puzzling that your run with Ar experienced severe erosion. Maybe your temperature is a bit too high. Or, maybe W erosion is extremely sensitive to even low concentrations of impurities carried by the gas. What is your pressure gauge? Could it be a source of contamination? If BLP operates at only 2000 K, as they say, they aren't making much atomic hydrogen. That's just one of the reasons I'm inclined to doubt either their results or the correctness of their descriptions of their protocols. However, hot tungsten at 2000 K ionizes potassium vapor upon contact. It is called "contact ionization", and it occurrs because the work function of W is slightly greater than the ionization potential of K. The outermost electron hops from the K atom into the W. The high temperature is needed to slow recombination of K+ + e- back to neutral K, a competing process at cold surfaces. This is certainly a good way to make some K+ ions as called for by Mills' theory. Some possible things to try: Start with lower filament temperature. Gradually increase temperature. See if there is a temperature at which you can operate for a long time. Run at lower gas pressure. At least this will slow the erosion rate (if nature is not too perverse this year!). Also, BLP sometimes seems to say that low pressure is better, so it seems to me that pressure variation is within the protocol. (Other times BLP says high pressure is better!) Flow the gas continuously. BLP did this in some of their reported experiments. Continuous fow has the advantage that the pump is also on continuously, which pumps out contaminants as well as primary gas. Connect a small cold trap to your chamber. This can be nothing more than a length of metal tubing teed off on the chamber side of your pump line. Bake the trap while baking your chamber. (Heater tapes are good for this. Buy a heater tape and wrap it around the cold trap, pumpout line and gas fill line. Run the tape from a Variac or, more cheaply, an incadescent lamp electronic dimmer.) Then put a container with dry ice or liquid N2 around the trap tube. before you admit the gas. Don't let the trap get warm during the experiment, or the condensed crud will flow back into your system. Liq. N2 condenses most gases, but not N2, H2, Ar, He, CH4 nor CO. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:23:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05095; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:18:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:18:28 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980120175454.008fda24 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:54:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"fYPjN.0.FF1.pfEnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:20 AM 1/20/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Time to take a break and examine what we've done and where we're going. > >BLP says the filament needs to be at 2000K, which is only ~1730C. Perhaps >I should use that temperature as a limit for the filament power and take >other measures to get the gas temp up to 280C (i.e. improve the insulation >around the chamber, or use the cartridge heater in conjunction with the >filament)...or just live with the knowledge that somewhere near the 1730C >filament the gas temp will be 280C...? If 1730 deg C is your goal, why not use a Pt filament which melts at 1772 deg C? This way you avoid the proplems encountered by using W and you can still test BLP claims. >At the risk of departure from the BLP recipe, it seems like a little cup of >molten K metal in the chamber might be a good way to clean up the vacuum >AND provide the necessary K atoms/ions in the vapor state. > >--- adrift on the Sea of Choices - Scott > The use of K as a getter is an excellent choice. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:23:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05419; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:18:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:18:57 -0800 Message-ID: <34C4D0E6.6A9E earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:29:26 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Murray: private list for CF criticism Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ahyzG3.0.nJ1.BgEnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust215.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.215]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAB29492; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:42:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C439DD.75C8 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:45:01 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rmforall@earthlink.net, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall@ix.netcom.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Murray: private list for CF criticism References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan. 19, 1998 Dear all, If anyone sent me email Monday, Jan. 19, please resend it to me, as my box was not functional. Akira Kawasaki, don't try to resend the long posts for the Arata translation-- I did get them. This list I am starting to use as a private list for posts in the arena of objective CF criticism, CG, CETI, Arata, any interesting excess energy and transmutation evidence, escecially attempts at replication. I will delete any names upon request. So, I'll focus on this list, instead of posting frequently to Vortex-L. I'm abandoning sci.physics.fusion, as there is a very low rate of discussion of experiments. Anyone can use this list-- in Netscape Navigator, just call up the previous post, hit Reply to All under Message, and put in the subject and post you want. Remove Vortex-L eskimo.com, if you don't want to post there. As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:25:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06017; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:19:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:19:57 -0800 From: "Clinton Rawls" To: Subject: Re: Message from vortex B ! Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:34:12 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980120173032.AAA434 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"F6pxI2.0.2T1.4hEnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > WHAT SHOULD BE THE OFFICIAL SUBJECT AREAS OF VORTEXB-L? > > VortexB commands of course are just like Vortex-L's, but of course with > the option of unsubscribing from vortexB without affecting our vortex-L > subscriptions. To leave vortexB, send your unsubscribe command to > vortexb-L-request eskimo.com, or, if using the digest, > vortexb-digest-request eskimo.com To amend my earlier message... I think one vortex list is best but since at least two already exist maybe one of them could be for OU messages and the other one be for non-OU messages. I'll just have to get a copy of some software that will help me to do a better job of scanning the lists for vortex specific information. Thanks! Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:26:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06072; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:20:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:20:02 -0800 Message-ID: <34C4CD74.3F22 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:14:44 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Question for Murray ignored Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"oQpKg2.0.NT1.5hEnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19978 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:04:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA29152; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mica (world.std.com) by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA22710; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:04:43 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120080227.006b65a0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:02:27 +0000 To: rmforall earthlink.net From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Question for Murray ignored Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34C439DD.75C8 earthlink.net> References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9 earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6 earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1 earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8 earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0 earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506 earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276 earthlink.net> <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5 earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4 earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:45 PM 1/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >Jan. 19, 1998 > >Dear all, If anyone sent me email Monday, Jan. 19, Mr. Murray, I asked a question about the accuracy of your postings. The date was 1/17. One would not want to preliminary assume that you have no interest in accuracy of your posts. Thus, could you please address that matter. I have received email that there are others who are also interested. A duplicate copy is below. If having an answer requires a direct email answer than please add me to whatever list requires said accurate answer. Thank you. Mitchell Swartz ----- copy of 1/17 letter ----------------- At 12:13 AM 1/17/98 -0600, Rich Murray wrote: >Subject: Re: Arata publications -Reply -Reply -Forwarded > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:21:28 -0700 > From: Lee HANSEN > To: rmforall earthlink.net > >Thought you might like to see this exchange between me and Shanahan. > >I strongly suspect the Arata work is very similar to the report from >Kyoto about 4-5 years ago that turned out to be nothing more than a >corroding thermocouple. A small temperature error multiplied by a large >flow rate integrated over a long time easily produces MJ that were never >there. > >Lee Hansen > Regarding the purported corroding thermocouple yielding an Arata-like effect in Kyoto: Exactly which thermocouple corroded yielding an effect similar to the Arata work? (type (e.g. "E", "K", custom, make, material, conditions) Exactly which/whose data from Kyoto is suspect from said corroding thermocouple? Is there a published paper, or other documentation, of this claim regarding the not yet defined work/paper? Thanks. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:39:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09438; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:26:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:26:24 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: BLP Run 8 plans Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd25d0$4fc55680$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"mVSFo1.0.9J2.CnEnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm a bit confused on the radiated heat loss from the filament and the resulting temperature. The radiated power to a 293 K glass enclosure should be 2.404E5 watts/meter^2 at 2,000 K: W = 5.7E-8(e1*T^4 - e2*T^4) watts/meter^2 If the heat isn't being dumped by the chamber walls the filament has to overheat, doesn't it? Pure tungsten at 2,000 K should emit 1.0 ampere of electrons/meter^2. Use the Edison Effect to get a handle on the filament temperature? A battery with a microammeter between the filament and the chamber or a nearby post, if the filament input leads are "floating"? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:42:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11531; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:30:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:30:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:36:54 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: looking for dead inventors (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"dVjCo1.0.pp2.uqEnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's someone looking for obscure inventors. I've already sent him some Tesla stuff. Anyone know of "local heroes" he should know about? (Reply to john screenhouse.co.uk, he's not on vortex) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:46:23 -0000 From: John Francas To: billb eskimo.com Subject: dead inventors Now down to business - we make a TV show in the U.K. called Local Heroes, which is about the lives of unsung pioneers of science and invention (who are all dead!). We uncover unknown stories about famous inventors around the U.K. (like faraday, Wheatstone, Stephenson etc) and we discover inventors that history has forgotten. A good example is Gladstone Adams. He invented the windscreen wiper a good eight years BEFORE the American who is credited with inventing it. Anyway, we are now doing some special programmes for the BBC from abroad and we would like to know about any unsung Russian, Chinese or American heroes of science and invention. If you know any names that we should cover, please reply. My new e-mail is john screenhouse.co.uk Thanks. John Francas Screenhouse Productions From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 10:59:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21333; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:51:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:51:53 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980120092023.006baa44 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:51:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"VfXSE2.0.mC5.49Fnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More thoughts: Float your filament, so you can bias it. Bias filament negatively, from ten to about 50 volt. The mildly accelerated electrons will break up H2 atoms. As bias increases, you also ionize hydrogen. Ionization rate peaks at about 50 eV electrons. You probably don'd actually want much hydrogen inonzation, so maybe 10 V is better. Now we should get some atomic hydrogen, but the filament temperature can be reduced, though it still must be hot enough to emit enough electrons to do something useful. The local filament voltage is a combination of any applied bias and the resistively divided heating voltage. So, present operation up to 13 or 14 VAC RMS actually means peak voltage is near 20 V. You probably already have enough electrons to make atomic H AND some ions, too. Maybe this is how BLP gets atomic H at 2000 K (though BLP has no even hinted that they have means to measure atomic H concentration). Maybe this explains the erosion. 20 V is not enough to initiate an arc, but it could sustain an arc initiated by some other means. However, I'm thinking along less violent lines. 20 V electrons make ions. Not all the ions recombine when the voltage drops in its sinusiodal swing, though most will. When the filament goes negative, it attracts the remaining ions and is bombarded by them. Normally, bombardment by 20 eV H+ ions would be pretty inconsequential to W, but maybe W is more susceptible to bombardment damage at high temperature. Maybe this contributes to erosion. Just a guess. Anyway, under this hypothesis, you should heat your one-side-grounded filament with positive DC, so it emits electrons and repells ions. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 11:05:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20001; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:59:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:59:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: looking for dead inventors (fwd) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:54:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd25d4$d93a1a00$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"99OLT.0.Ou4.5GFnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, January 20, 1998 11:33 AM Subject: looking for dead inventors (fwd) > >Here's someone looking for obscure inventors. I've already sent him some >Tesla stuff. Anyone know of "local heroes" he should know about? (Reply >to john screenhouse.co.uk, he's not on vortex) Does anyone give Eve credit for making Adam's Banana Stand? :-) Regards, Frederick > >((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) >William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb >EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science >Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:46:23 -0000 >From: John Francas >To: billb eskimo.com >Subject: dead inventors > >Now down to business - we make a TV show in the U.K. called Local Heroes, >which is about the lives of unsung pioneers of science and invention (who >are all dead!). We uncover unknown stories about famous inventors around >the U.K. (like faraday, Wheatstone, Stephenson etc) and we discover >inventors that history has forgotten. A good example is Gladstone Adams. He >invented the windscreen wiper a good eight years BEFORE the American who is >credited with inventing it. > >Anyway, we are now doing some special programmes for the BBC from abroad >and we would like to know about any unsung Russian, Chinese or American >heroes of science and invention. If you know any names that we should >cover, please reply. My new e-mail is john screenhouse.co.uk > >Thanks. > >John Francas >Screenhouse Productions > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 12:54:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11779; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:48:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:48:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:43:41 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Titanic movie Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801201547_MC2-3006-E21 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"GShjq3.0.jt2.osGnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I saw the Titanic movie the other day. It was pretty good. The love story was a little contrived, but the acting wasn't bad and the girl is a dish. The special effects were not overdone or intrusive. The portrayal of the disaster was the most realistic and detailed one ever presented on film. I have seen a number of movies about the Titanic. The others have been mostly fantasy. This one showed the panic, confusion, and some of the dreadful mistakes, like the fact that the lookouts on the crow's nest were not issued binoculars, and the lifeboats were only half-filled. I am a stickler for details, especially maritime details, and this movie filled the bill. I quibbled with several details. For example, when the lookouts called the bridge the officers responded instantly; there was no delay. I think the incident in which an officer committed suicide is a myth. Most important, there is no solid evidence that the gates between third class and the boat deck were closed. Afterwards people suspected they might have been because the casualty rate was so much higher in third class, so this issue was raised repeatedly during the U.S. and British official enquiries. One steerage passenger testified that a gate had been closed briefly early on, but it was soon opened. Others said there was no barrier at any time. (See W.C. Wade, pp. 275 - 278.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 13:09:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA32434; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:04:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:04:26 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:04:19 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980120092023.006baa44 mail.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Zhd6A3.0.iw7.P5Hnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Scott Little wrote: > Time to take a break and examine what we've done and where we're going. > > George Holz points out a problem area: > > >-30 watts seems pretty high power input for an automotive brake lamp, > >what is the published rating for the bulb? > > Here is some data I collected from a new bulb with R20 (the resistance at > 20C) = 0.48 ohms: > > V i P R R/R20 T (C) > 10.91 1.916 20.9 5.69 11.86 2030 > 12.04 2.011 24.2 5.99 12.47 2150 > 13.5 2.142 28.9 6.3 13.1 2250 > 15.1 2.27 34.3 6.65 13.85 2380 > > The temperatures are based upon the R/R20 ratio and the published > resistivity vs T data for W. > > The main reason I've been running the filament so hot is to get the gas up > to the BLP value of 280C. I now think my high filament power is a major > source of trouble, especially once the filament begins to thin out a bit. > The gas temp reading is rather arbitrary...it is highly dependent upon the > location of the probe w.r.t the filament. This is a very good point. You may be simply vapourizing the filament. It was probably designed to operate in inert gas at atmospheric temperature. Running in an effective vacuum you reduce the rate that heat can be transfered from the filament via convective processes. That combined with the over-power operation may be the simple cause of your problem. Is it worth asking BLP what they use for filaments? Cheers Martin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 13:43:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06952; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:34:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120163459.054462b0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:34:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <348695d8.27907009 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lMtkc1.0.Ti1.vXHnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (Sorry not to answer this sooner, between Christmas and work related travel, I've fallen way behind.) At 09:46 PM 12/4/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Surely the only D lost is that which actually undergoes a reaction, as >with a little engineering, the non-reacted D can be recycled. So I >find the cost of D as a reason for not following through, a bit weak. >You also mention "net energy production". Lack thereof seems a more >probable reason. No, you convert a lot of the deuterium into ordinary hydrogen. Done right, you can strip a thousand neutrons from deuterium for every energy generating event, but realistic plans call for 30 to 100 such "wasted" deuterons. It gets expensive enough that other techniques, such as Be11-p, get interesting. >I am also curious exactly how significant. Presumably by "runaways", >you mean the very tail end of the distribution? Well, sort of. If you have a plasma in an accellerating electric field, most of the positive ions will be slowed by collisions with other particles. But the probability of collisions goes down as the speed goes up, so some particles are "runaways" that get accellerated to several keV. The field that does the accelerating can be an unstable pinch in the plasma confinement, or an externally supplied field. Most of the stripping I have seen was with a Z-pinch. (Probably most that you have seen as well, if you went to the GE exhibit at the 1964 World's Fair. GE manufactures High Voltage capacitors, and at the time they were trying to shed the image of a stodgy old appliance maker. Throwing a few hundred kiloJoules into a deuterium plasma surrounded by energetic particle detectors let them demonstrate "fusion power." Even though most of the particles detected were from stripping.) >If so, guesstimate >says there would be very few of these indeed in a plasma with a 1 eV >average temp. So is "significant" perhaps more significant than would >appear at first blush? No, the number of runaway particles at any one time while small in relation to the entire plasma is such that with any sort of confinement, all particles are runaways several times per second. The important thing to know is that you have a two-humped distribution, not a bell curve. >I.e. is there a somewhat anomalous reaction taking place here (even if >not AE)? It is very anomalous, and I wish someone would do real research on it. The problem is not that stripping happens, it is that it doesn't seem to fit the (now) classical nuclear model. I tried to come up with a model that said that stipping occured because one of the nucleons flipped spin and see if it fit reality better, but no one--at that time--wanted to be associated with stripping research. The whole fusion program had gotten badly burned by not recognizing it for what it was, and they just wanted it to go away. But deuterons seem to be easier to break apart than the binding energy indicates. It is simplistic to think that the reaction that occurs is spontaneous decay of the neutron, (d --> p + p + e + antineutrino) since the signature of stripping is lots of low to moderate energy neutrons. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 15:44:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07542; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:39:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:39:59 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:33:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Rich Murray cc: ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: confused ..? I sure am!Re: Question for Murray ignored In-Reply-To: <34C4CD74.3F22 earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Tv6Qs1.0.kr1.DNJnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., See notes in text below ... some cuts too.. On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Rich Murray wrote: > Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) > by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19978 > To: rmforall earthlink.net > From: Mitchell Swartz > Subject: Question for Murray ignored > Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com > > > >Dear all, If anyone sent me email Monday, Jan. 19, -------------- Looks like Mitchell asked a question ... Right? ---- > > Mr. Murray, I asked a question about the accuracy of > your postings. The date was 1/17. > > One would not want to preliminary assume that you have no > interest in accuracy of your posts. > Thus, could you please address that matter. I have received > email that there are others who are also interested. > > A duplicate copy is below. > If having an answer requires a direct email answer than > please add me to whatever list requires said accurate answer. > > Thank you. > > Mitchell Swartz > > > ----- copy of 1/17 letter ----------------- > > At 12:13 AM 1/17/98 -0600, Rich Murray wrote: > >Subject: Re: Arata publications -Reply -Reply -Forwarded > > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:21:28 -0700 > > From: Lee HANSEN > > To: rmforall earthlink.net > > > >Thought you might like to see this exchange between me and Shanahan. > > > >I strongly suspect the Arata work is very similar to the report from > >Kyoto about 4-5 years ago that turned out to be nothing more than a > >corroding thermocouple. A small temperature error multiplied by a large > >flow rate integrated over a long time easily produces MJ that were never > >there. > > > >Lee Hansen > > Regarding the purported corroding thermocouple yielding an Arata-like > effect in Kyoto: > > Exactly which thermocouple corroded yielding an effect similar to > the Arata work? (type (e.g. "E", "K", custom, make, material, conditions) > > Exactly which/whose data from Kyoto is suspect from said > corroding thermocouple? > > Is there a published paper, or other documentation, > of this claim regarding the not yet defined work/paper? > > Thanks. > Mitchell Swartz > And it looks like ... from the header .... this contribution is from Rich .... Right? But I don't see the answer .... It looks just like the original question .... Did I miss something? JH Schnurer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 15:44:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07494; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:39:53 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C535BF.F735F8E5 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:39:43 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Titanic movie References: <199801201547_MC2-3006-E21 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4XBFm2.0.dq1.7NJnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > I saw the Titanic movie the other day. It was pretty good. I enjoyed it too. Just a suggestion, don't get the super-size drink with the pop corn. ouch. Stupid Movie Trivia: In the beginning of the movie, while one main character is talking the other main character out off jumping off the ship, a mention of falling through the ice on a lake up by Chippawa Falls Wisconsin was made. The lake mentioned is actually man-made and did not exist at the time. oops! A friend from that area caught that slip. We don't hold it against him though.... being from that area that is..... hee hee hee. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 15:47:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09184; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:44:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:44:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:38:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans... and some non fact.. [opinion] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mrBj_.0.NF2.VRJnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: More stuff from Schnurer: a] insulate the heck out of the systen so you don't have to run everything so hard to get it hot enough. b] Opinion: At first, just see if you can get it to run up there... my understaning is you do not need 12 digits of accuracy to see the BLP effect, and that it is pretty strong. c] Once you get it to 'cook along' THEN go for exact figures. Example: Many times when I start doing anything...gravity included .... I just kind of 'rough it' ... then when I see results I go for the harder numbers. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 15:55:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13193; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120174820.00a81d3c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:48:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: incandescent W vs gases, Run 8 plans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dp1lu2.0.0E3.FVJnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: **** Big post warning **** I found some info in Scientific Foundations of Vacuum Practice, 2nd edition, Saul Dushman. He quotes Irving Langmuir's series of papers from J. Am. Chem. Soc. 37, 417, (1915): "The water vapor coming into contact with the filament is decomposed, the oxygen combining with the tungsten and the hydrogen being evolved. The oxide distils to the bulb, where it is subsequently reduced to metallic tungsten by atomic hydrogen given off by the filament, water vapor being simulataneously produced." The last part about the atomic hydrogen being responsible for the reduction of the tungsten oxide finally makes the water cycle plausible for me. I just couldn't see the oxide "coming apart" all by itself on the colder wall of the chamber. An interesting statement by Dushman concerns the thermal behavior of the atomic hydrogen: "At temperatures above 2000K, this dissociation of gas in contact with the filament causes the absorption of a very large quantity of heat. The atomic hydrogen produced diffuses out and recombines at the walls to form molecules with liberation of heat. This explains the observation that the energy loss from a tungsten wire heated in hydrogen is many times greater than it should be on the assumption that the heat loss is due exclusively to themal conduction by the gas." Such behavior will make it difficult to compare heat results with hydrogen and helium as BLP has attempted to do with their "isothermal" calorimetry. OK, now to the discussion: Mike Schaeffer says some really good things: >What is your pressure gauge? Could it be a source of contamination? It's an Omega thing: PX74-0.3DV on p. B-15 in Vol 29 "Pressure & Strain" They don't give wetted mat'l but I asked and they said silicon and gold...sounds pretty good and clean. There's also a Bourdon-tube gauge in the experiment volume but it is SS316 throughout and is welded in. >Start with lower filament temperature. Gradually increase temperature. See >if there is a temperature at which you can operate for a long time. I think this is my most promising strategy. >Flow the gas continuously. BLP did this in some of their reported >experiments. I'd have to rework the plumbing to get the flow to go THRU the chamber but I'm starting to warm up to this idea. >Connect a small cold trap to your chamber. This can be nothing more than a >length of metal tubing teed off on the chamber side of your pump line. This sounds like an excellent plan. One worry: What will happen when the trap is at LN2 temp and the lines are full of H2 at 2 torr (i.e. the target operating conditions)? Will the gas conduct heat into the trap at an undesirably high rate? >you should heat your >one-side-grounded filament with positive DC, so it emits electrons and >repells ions. I'll try this one on the next run. BLP doesn't specify so it fits right in... Fred S wrote: >If the heat isn't being dumped by the chamber >walls the filament has to overheat, doesn't it? Yes...but the chamber walls are definitely receiving all the filament power. That can be seen from the way the Pout trace approaches Pin at the end of the runs. Martin writes: >Is it worth asking BLP what they use for filaments? First, they say on their web page that they used Pt in the first experiments and then switched to W. About 1.5 weeks ago I sent Dr. Mills an announcement of our efforts and an invitation to look over the growing data on our web page. I also told him that, if we succeeded in our replication efforts, we would gladly stand beside him in whatever capacity (testimonial, joint development, etc) he desired. Judging by his lack of response (and his lack of response to a number of attempts at communication in recent months by both Puthoff and myself) he must want our experiment to be the first _truly_ independent replication of his effects!... Ed Strojny wrote: >If 1730 deg C is your goal, why not use a Pt filament which melts at 1772 >deg C? This way you avoid the proplems encountered by using W and you can >still test BLP claims. This would be fitting for a replication of the U of Penn experiments but they only saw about 5% excess heat in those experiments. I've set my sights on the 50-100% excess they report for the W filaments. and >The use of K as a getter is an excellent choice. OK, good. But, until I see some sign of the BLP excess heat effect, I feel that it is vital that I not stray significantly from their protocol. Of course, you can argue that I don't have their protocol...just a loose collection of tidbits that they chose to include in their web-page hype. I'll get some K metal just so it'll be handy. Thanks to all for the very constructive discussions. I'm going to let the experiment sit for another day or two while these ideas stew around (and I take care of some report writing). Keep thinking! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 16:19:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15463; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:15:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:15:15 -0800 From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199801210015.QAA15368 mx1.eskimo.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 17:00:16 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: Need MU-Metal Info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pmzLP.0.Tn3.GuJnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello All, Anyone have good specs on MU-Metal and it's shielding properties? Wondering if it could block effects of strong [neodymium/alinco] magnets on other metals/each other? From a O/U, F/E perspective, would sliding MU-Metal shielding between a magnetic field need extra energy to break thru/shield the magnetic lines of force...or would it be a fairly transparent process? [in other words, would a piece of already moving MU-Metal require extra energy to pass thru an existing magnetic field?] Any ideas what other effects it might have? Thanks in advance, Anton Rager Denver, CO arager McGraw-Hill.com [WK] arager idcomm.com [HM] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 16:51:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24684; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:44:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:44:57 -0800 Message-ID: <34C53780.1022 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:47:12 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Question for Murray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9L3sL1.0.I16.5KKnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 20. 1998 Hi all, I originally quoted a post from ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu to kirk.shanahan srs.gov, suggesting that a corroded thermocouple could have produced the Arata apparent excess heat data, based on some experiment reported years ago in Kyoto. Mica world.std.com (Mitchell Swartz) wanted to know the details, so the ball is in Prof. Hansen's court. As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:00:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22982; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:52:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:52:26 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:48:22 EST To: VORTEX-L eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Subject: THE GRAVITY ASSOCIATED WITH ZP ENERGY Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"TWSEz2.0.0d5.8RKnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: PUTHOFF WRITES in quantum field theory and the Standard Model. Because the vacuum is a complicated material governed by locality and symmetry, one can learn how to analyze it by studying other such materials - that is, condensed matter. I believe that the upwardly heritable principles of locality and symmetry, .............................................................................. ... I like that comment. I feel the big and obvious symmmetry that no one but me seems to care about is the one between force and gravity. force = mg gravity = G(force)/ccr Other symmetries include.................................... electric / magnetic strong nuclear / nuclear spin orbit Don't sit on me about the strong nuclear/ nuclear spin orbit. It's a known relationship that exists within the nucleus. It tends to couple nucleons pair wise into stable configurations. It's electromagnetic in formulation but NOT in origin. The constants are very large as compaired to the electromagnetic. Within an electron condensation each of these symmetries suffers the same fate. The RANGE of the interaction changes. ref ZPE paper Elektromagnum Index Page, created July 1 Gravity and electromagnetism do NOT begin to interact. The symmetries remain separate, however, the range through which the the symmetries interact greatly changes. This results in the cold fusion, Tampere, and Meissner effects. This is another reason that I believe that the best place to convert ZPE into electricity is within a superconductor. I believe that the change in the range of the interaction is key to extraction of ZP energy. I believe that "The Downshifting of the Frequencies" theory being developed at Marshall is going to be a key. Low frequency implies longer range. They are saying in different words what I have been preaching for years. ........................................................................ Locality. I like this comment. How are distant regions of the universe connected to local space? I believe that the link is through a quantum of capacitance or material elastic limit of free space. Once a capacitor is constructed and the plates lay in the light cone of each other the capacitance between the plates is fixed. Look into the night sky and see the stars. You are within their light cone. You are immediately capacitively linked to these stars. The capacitance function does not contain an element of time. It takes time to place a charge on a capacitor but the capacitance remains constant and independent of distance. Remote regions of space determine the elastic limit of local space. (The isotropic capacitance of a point) I like to think of this a the Znidarsic derivation of Mach's principle. There is an immediate link. It effects all the symmetries even the non-electromagnetic ones. This link sets the Compton wavelengths and results in reflections that confine the ZPE within matter. These reflections produce a force that generates gravity. The Source of Inertial and Grav. Mass .................................................................. Frank Znidarsic PS...No physics this term...I getting tried of the real stuff....I taking several computer science courses...I'm 1/3 of the way towards a masters in electronics... One year of real physics training has convinced me that real physicists do not think about these matters at all. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:13:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25621; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:06:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199712120756.XAA02076 norway.it.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"74Ckg2.0.8G6.EfKnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:56 PM 12/11/97 EST, you wrote: >>Does anyone have information (or where I can get info) on >>a device known as the atomic hydrogen torch? >> >>My web searches have turned up nothing. Atomic hydrogen is also known as monoatomic hydrogen, hydrogen atoms not in molecules. One of the weirdest phenomena in science is that it is stable as a liquid (at about 17 degrees K) but burns to form H2 at the hottest temperature of any purely chemical reaction. Atomic hydrogen torches usually use an electric arc to disassociate normal hydrogen gas into a plasma, which then recombines to get hotter still. (SAFETY WARNING: An atomic hydrogen torch in air, or for that matter any plasma torch in air will create HCN--hydrogen cyanide. Use a hood and bubble the air through a mild lye solution. This also removes NOx before you vent outside.) I've never understood the facination with atomic hydrogen torches. In my experience any plasma torch can reach fifteen or twenty thousand degrees Kelvin, using hydrogen as a working gas only raises the final temperature by a few per cent. Since anything you hit with a plasma torch decomposes into atoms, then recombines in nasty ways, why not just keep it clean and use Argon? (I definitely recommend against nitrogen on safety grounds, and atomic oxygen has its own nastiness.) One last note, with one of these things anything in its path is either well cooled highly conductive metal, or you are breathing it. Don't use asbestos or ceramics on any exposed surface. Graphite is safe but doesn't last long, and I have cut through 1/2 inch steel plates by accident. (Cooling water pump broke, and there was a hole in the plate before we got the torch shut down.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:14:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30482; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:09:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:09:52 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <2d20197d.34c548af aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:00:28 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: incandescent W vs gases, Run 8 plans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ieinW2.0.CS7.VhKnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-20 18:53:02 EST, you write: > Thanks to all for the very constructive discussions. I'm going to let the > experiment sit for another day or two while these ideas stew around (and I > take care of some report writing). Keep thinking! Scott, The BLP site mentions that hydrino reactions take place in the suns corona. Does anyony know what are the supposed conditions are in the corona? Pressure? Yes, I know that getting to the 11,000,000 deg C in the corona would be kind of tough but was thinking that the high temperature (2,000C) reactor that Mills mentioned may be possible, although not with the present equipment you are using. Regards, Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:22:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA32013; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:17:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:17:59 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:01:23 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Yusmar - cavitation - atomization - Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"QNQYX2.0.1q7.5pKnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robbin Spanndonk writes .......................................... Long ago on Vortex, I suggested that perhaps that device worked by precisely that mechanism. I.e. that the water flashed to steam in the venturi, then later in the outlet tube, condensed in very fine droplets as the pressure increased again. The point being, that ................................... During the tests at Lanl L and Johnstown we heard much cavitation. THE SOUND OF THE YUSAMR 9/96 I smiled and gave Yuri the tumbs up when I heard the sound. Yuri, however, did not like it. He said the cavitation bubbles were much to large. He keep on adjusting the orifice (tuning the Yusmar) in an effort to reduce the cavitation sound. Yuri told me that hunderds of thousands of very tiny cavitation sites are required in a properly adjusted Yusmar. These tiny sites make no cavitation sound. John Barron and I considered redesigning the venturi on the Yusmar to make it like a perfume atomizer. We never did this. We are also limited in resources. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:30:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02462; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:27:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:27:46 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:27:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801210127.TAA27532 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"JuJ0M1.0.Oc.HyKnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You wrote: snip > >But deuterons seem to be easier to break apart than the >binding energy indicates. It is simplistic to think that the reaction >that occurs is spontaneous decay of the neutron, (d --> p + p + e + >antineutrino) since the signature of stripping is lots of low to >moderate energy neutrons. > > Robert I. Eachus Robert, How do you explain He3 and He4 reaction products produced in the Farnsworth/Hirsch fusor by your stripping mechanism? RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:35:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02804; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:29:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:29:58 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:24:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Puthoff aol.com Subject: Real physicists ...Re: THE GRAVITY ASSOCIATED WITH ZP ENERGY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"H4-CW.0.ih.L-Knq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Frank, I am a physicist. I do the work for a living. I think about Gravity, Force ... and a lot of other things. Really. I also work with, and teach ... and teach myself other disciplines in addition to Physics ... these include, but are not limited to; chemistry human factors the history and ethics of science sensors electronics instrumentation hydraulics and fluidics molecular and cell biology and biochemistry this, above, is the short list. Many who have dealing with will tell you, "Yes, John really does this stuff".... AND: I have big fun at it.... and sometimes make enough to make ends meet.... BUT: I try not to make sweeping genralizations ... ESPECIALLY about people .... like: All house painters smoke a lot of cigarettes If you are male and have hair growing out of your ears, drive REAL slow and wear a baseball or 'gimme hat' ... you are OLD All hill billys are stupid [on the contrary "bubba" engineers are often VERY sharp ... especially LADY "bubba" engineers!] I have met you. I like you OK. You should scan the "famous picture of the "bubba and non bubba" engineers and physcists you took at WSU and put it up on Jerry's and Bill's www sites! A little human factors editorial from John "knwoledgeable is a word that should have been clubber to death years ago when it started crawling about like the late Lon Cheney" Schnurer PS: in good spirit J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 17:58:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02402; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:44:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:42:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199801210142.RAA30407 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Nice Quote about Vacuum from Physics Today Resent-Message-ID: <"8Su8T.0.Qb.fBLnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >>From Hal Puthoff > >January 1998 *Physics Today* has a nice quote on p. 13 by Frank Wilczek of the >Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton concerning the vacuum: > >"In the modern theory of elementary particles, we learn that empty space - the >vacuum - is in reality a richly structured, though highly symmetrical, medium. >Dirac's sea was an early indication of this feature, which is deeply embedded >in quantum field theory and the Standard Model. Because the vacuum is a >complicated material governed by locality and symmetry, one can learn how to >analyze it by studying other such materials - that is, condensed matter. Yeah, and some day when we get our heads out of the sand and understand that we are fish in an ocean, then we will expect that mass is not "equivalent", but rather conserved. And when we do that, we will know to seek out phenomena where the earth is being gently distorted, periodically, by the waves of mass being emitted by our very own sun. And when we start searching for these waves, we will learn why Venus' atmosphere sloshes around the planet every four days, why the moon has the period it does, why the earth's rotation varies from spring to fall due to the red then blue shifting of that wave energy respectively, why plate tectonics are driven by the solar rocking motion, why VBrand waves manifest, and on and on and on. And when we learn that that aether can condense, then we will understand the true nature of particles, as solitons with a quantum vacuum state change at the Planck scale about which the solitonic wave energy converges and reflects. It is so easy that it would be better to teach the kids in grammar school, because we old farts tend not to listen to new ideas when they rattle our cages. And we are so used to the idea of the empty vacuum, we are not able to conceive of ourselves as fish. Though that is what we are, fish in a huge ocean we call empty space. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 18:11:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06418; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:02:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:02:36 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2d20197d.34c548af aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:01:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: incandescent W vs gases, Run 8 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"gNFib2.0.4a1.tSLnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince asked: >Does anyony know what are the supposed >conditions are in the corona? Pressure? >Yes, I know that getting to the 11,000,000 deg C in the >corona would be kind of tough but was thinking that the high >temperature (2,000C) reactor that Mills mentioned may be >possible, although not with the present equipment >you are using. I know a bit. Of course, the solar corona is not uniform. Corona temperature ranges between 1 and 2 million Kelvin. Pressure is low, I think it is somewhere around 10^-7 bar. While the details of coronal heating are not well understood, the general outline is that the roiling visible surface of the sun and below whips magnetic flux tubes extending far up into the corona, and these "stir up" the coronal ions, which get to high temperatures, much greater than the visible at about 5770 K. Mills is in error when he asserts that high coronal temperature is a mystery. The heating processes are similar to ones we can produce on much smaller scale in the lab and simulate on computers. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 18:16:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06567; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:03:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:03:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C55751.E49C18B2 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:03:01 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex References: <19980120165709.AAA4045 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RhfSZ1.0.Wc1.kTLnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If a message is off topic, [OFF TOPIC] is put at the start of the subject line, So why doesn't Bill Beaty and or people on the list come up with headers like: [experimental] actual experimentation or [exp] [vortex] for fluid dynamics or [vort] [CF] for cold fusion [nuclear] anything nuclear [nuke] [chemical] or [chem] [free-energy] or [freenrg] (this header should be for a device that should have been posted on freenrg) - Like the SMOT posts 'rip' [news] news of interest to list members [antigravity] or [antigrav] [FTL] [ZPE] [scalar] [aether] ZPE, scalar, aether should maybe go under [theory] The above are just ideas, but the idea is that someone knows what the thread is and if they are not interested in say cold fusion they can set there mail program to delete [CF] or in the case of Clinton Rawls he could have all the emails from vortex deleted unless it has the [vortex] at the start of the subject line. So rather than vortex B mailing list just have [vortex-B] in the subject. I think that before this happens there should be set rules posted on the vortex page, as to use of more that one header e.g... [CF] [experiment] my cold fusion results It may be better to have just one header [experiment] my cold fusion results. I believe that this idea should be properly investigated. John Berry Clinton Rawls wrote: > I have been a Vort for several weeks now and I have watching for messages > that refer specifically to the vortex phenomenon but I have not seen a > single one out of many hundreds of messages. While I am very interested in > and can appreciate all the messages on other new energy sources such as BLP > and other non-vortex related energy sources, I am most interested in new > energy from the secrets of the vortex. The shear number of messages on > these other energy sources warrants the creation of new e-mail lists such > as BLP-L or ZPE-L or Water-L. Is there anyone out there aware of or are > working on technology that taps into the power of the vortex? If so, > please validate the name of this e-mail list and share with the rest of us > what your latest developments or findings are. Thanks to everyone! > > Best Wishes, > > Clinton Rawls From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 18:33:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09915; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:29:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:29:21 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:27:52 -0500 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: email from smithsonian about tesla Resent-Message-ID: <"VZ2ia.0.rQ2.-rLnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: So, a while back I sent some email to the Smithsonian concerning their lack of good information about Tesla. (There is a grade school teacher in the midwest with a web site that encourages this.) Finally, I got a reply from Barney Finn, curator of the "Electrical Collections." Most of it was the text of a letter sent to Wayne Green. If you're interested, the file is at http://www.shore.net/~rmuha/physics/tesla-si.txt r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 20:23:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01517; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:16:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:16:19 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <67f33250.34c57378 aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:03:02 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: Nice Quote about Vacuum from Physics Today Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"rC9L81.0.dN.IQNnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/20/98 8:07:27 PM, Ross wrote: <> Nicely stated! Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 20:52:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07923; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:49:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:49:49 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:49:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199801210449.UAA17155 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Re: Nice Quote about Vacuum from Physics Today Resent-Message-ID: <"fcCaU2.0.dx1.ivNnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >In a message dated 1/20/98 8:07:27 PM, Ross wrote: > ><huge ocean we call empty space.>> > >Nicely stated! Thanks. BTW, I just posted an article I worked out dealing with plate tectonics from the standpoint that the earth is a rotationally coupled oscillator tied to the solar acoustic oscillations and emissions of aether. Those aether waves are pouring out of the sun. ie, the solar oscillations groups don't monitor the action imposed by matter on matter, but rather the action imposed by aether pouring out of the sun, on matter (where matter are nothing more or less complex than solitonic waveforms in that very aether). When you work out the rotation of the earth, the ellipticity of the earth, and the tilt of the earth, you find that in order for the earth to be coupled to the solar oscillations that the following should be true: 1) The earths rotational velocity should slow down from winter solstice to summer solstice. Fact: It does. 2) That the spacings of intense volcanism and earthquakes and plate boundaries ought to have an abnormal propensity to be positioned in locations that are 30 degrees from one another, if you maintain the same latitude. Fact: They do. 3) That the plate boundary lines should be weakened, ie exist, along lines going from south east toward the north west (you need to consider that the earth is doppler shifted relative to the incident solar wave energy as it moves around it's elliptical orbit, and then you have to consider the tilt of the earth and the precession of the acousticly coupled nodes and libration of the phase relation to get this. Check out the post if you are interested, in sci.physics.new theories, also in the earthquake, and the astro groups. Fact: They are. Additionally as I have stated in the past, we have VBrand waves, Internal Spiral Eddies, etc. which I have identified as being due to the acoustic rocking motions. I am currently trying to find information about vortices that are shed by islands in the middle of oceans on the lee sides. These vortices shed off in a periodic fashion, and I think that the period is going to match another solar acoustic period. Also, keep in mind the recent findings of the solar neutrino flux variation on the ~28 day cycle as this implicates the sun in forcing the period of the lunar orbit. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 21:26:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16268; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:24:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:24:27 -0800 Message-ID: <34C578C0.1C32 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:25:36 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, rmforall@earthlink.net, Schaffer gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall@ix.netcom.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Hideo Kozima at Shizuoka University References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E2Wrk3.0.5-3.AQOnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 20, 1998 Dear all, Wayne Green's Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion) magazine publishes many articles by Hideo Kozima, Dept. of Physics, Faculty of Science, Shizuoka University, 836 Oya, Shizuoka 422, Japan and he has a home page in Japanese only [found by an Alta Vista search] http://www.sci.shizuoka.ac.jp/~phys/kozima/kozi/kozi.html and email address Hideo Kozima / sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp I would like to know if anyone knows of an English language connection to him and his associates-- I'd like to engage them in our dialogues. As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 21:53:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25086; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:49:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:49:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:49:41 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mills in error? In-Reply-To: References: <2d20197d.34c548af aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KZv4W3.0.c76.anOnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:01 PM 1/20/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >Mills is in error when he asserts that high >coronal temperature is a mystery. The heating processes are similar to ones >we can produce on much smaller scale in the lab and simulate on computers. What about his postulation that hydrinos are a stable lower-energy form of hydrogen atoms? Considering everything that the matter which constitutes the Earth has been through since the Big Bang, I'd say it's a certainty that most/all of our terrestrial hydrogen would already be in the hydrino state...if such a state existed. If even a little of our hydrogen was naturally in the hydrino state, we would surely already know all about it. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 23:47:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24884; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:44:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:44:34 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:42:28 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Re: Run 8 plans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"0pxXG1.0.j46.UTQnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-20 18:53:02 EST, you write: > Keep thinking! Scott, At the BLP website in the News/Applications section, there are figures showing possible turbo generators. I noticed they show a seperate "Catylist Container" , to use their definition, feeding into the H2 feed line just as it enters the reactor chamber. Now I know these are not "plans" (blueprints) but maybe they show how he works it. In the website Mills discusses "careful metering of the catylist", and a seperate feed as shown would do the trick. Regards Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 23:47:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25209; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:46:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:46:29 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <3e07d31b.34c5a6e7 aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:42:29 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"uT6jo.0.i96.HVQnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15336 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-20 20:37:15 EST, you write: > Atomic hydrogen torches usually use an electric arc to disassociate > normal hydrogen gas into a plasma, By plasma do you mean H+ ions? Would all (or most) of the H atoms be ions? >which then recombines to get hotter still. >(SAFETY WARNING: An atomic hydrogen torch in air, or for that > matter any plasma torch in air will create HCN--hydrogen cyanide. Does the HCN get the C from the atmospheric CO2? Thanks for your answer. It's been doggone tough to find info on this. My arc would be in pure H2 atmosphere and was looking for a way to supply LOTS of atomic H for Mills' theorized hydrino reaction. Hmm...now how do I feed a catylist into this torch.....maybe an arc in H2(ac or dc?) with one of the electrodes K metal or a K alloy....hollow tungsten for the other and H2 feed... Back to thinking... BTW, I'm thinking of small scale, milliamp arc, <1mhz, maybe some harmonic of H2 resonance. Also valving the H2 supply will for safety concerns, be very conservative. (but I'll still mind the HCN) Thanks very much for that one! Regards, Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 20 23:56:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11556; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:53:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:53:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:36:49 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <34c4eef4.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: "'Hideo Kozima'" , "Peter Glueck" Subject: Re: Hideo Kozima at Shizuoka University Resent-Message-ID: <"jBKHq1.0.Uq2.YbQnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:24:27 -0800, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Hideo Kozima / sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp > > I would like to know if anyone knows of an English language connection > to him and his associates-- I'd like to engage them in our dialogues. > > As one, Rich Murray Dear Rich, I am a good friend of Hideo, who is a great scientist and a very nice man. He has a quite busy schedule, teaching, experimenting, writing. His theory is quite remarkable and in full development. In my personal opinion it is not efficient for him to engage in long discussions re. the works of other people, given that this discussions are not always constructive. A very bad example is the the statement of Lee Hansen about the Arata work...nasty calumny without support. A shame. Otherwise, I think that it is useless to continue the discussion on Arata if you do not get in touch with the authors directly. Best wishes, Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 00:08:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27053; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:04:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:04:00 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <6909d360.34c5aa68 aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:57:26 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills in error? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ZbCsK3.0.Zc6.klQnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-21 01:35:35 EST, you write: > I'd say it's a certainty that most/all of our terrestrial hydrogen >would already be in the hydrino state... > Scott Little I believe Mills says that as the hydrinos fall into the suns gravity well they are "pumped" back to the "normal ground state". Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 03:02:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08459; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:58:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:58:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:57:34 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [OFF TOPIC] nasa NEAR to eros (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uo8uH3.0.542.ZJTnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FYI incoming ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:49:45 -0500 (EST) From: NASANews hq.nasa.gov To: ekwall2 diac.com Subject: Earth Swingby Puts NEAR Spacecraft on Final Approach to Eros Donald Savage Headquarters, Washington, DC January 20, 1998 (Phone: 202/358-1547) Helen Worth The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, MD (Phone: 301/953-5113) RELEASE: 98-9 EARTH SWINGBY PUTS NEAR SPACECRAFT ON FINAL APPROACH TO EROS NASA's Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR) spacecraft, built by The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL) in Laurel, MD, will become the first interplanetary spacecraft that can possibly be seen with the naked eye when it swings by Earth Jan. 22-23. The spacecraft's solar panels will reflect the Sun's rays onto the Earth in a greeting as it flies by for an adjustment of its trajectory to correctly align the spacecraft for a rendezvous with asteroid 433 Eros, its mission target. Launched Feb. 17, 1996, NEAR completed a flyby of the asteroid Mathilde in June 1997 and is now on its way back to Earth. Late Thursday, Jan. 22, the spacecraft will approach Earth over the Pacific Ocean traveling at about 20,000 mph. Because the United States will be in darkness as NEAR approaches, if there is no cloud cover, several geographic areas will be able to see the Sun reflecting off the spacecraft's solar panels, which will act as large mirrors. These sunglints will be visible on the East Coast, Friday, Jan. 23, at about 1:30 a.m. EST and the West Coast at about 1:45 a.m. EST (Thursday, 10:45 p.m. PST). The spacecraft then swings around the Aleutian Islands and over Siberia before reaching its closest point to Earth, about 336 miles above Ahvaz in southwest Iran, Friday, Jan. 23, at 11:23 a.m. local time (2:23 a.m. EST), traveling at about 29,000 mph, its fastest speed for the swingby. Although NEAR will be close to Earth at this time, daylight may obscure its image. The spacecraft then swings over Africa and on to Antarctica before pulling away from the Earth at a speed of about 15,000 mph. The swingby will have changed NEAR's trajectory to approximately 11 degrees south of the Earth's ecliptic plane, the orbital path the Earth takes as it circles the Sun, and put the spacecraft on target for its Jan. 10, 1999, rendezvous with Eros. NEAR scientists and engineers are using the swingby as an opportunity to test performance and calibration of the spacecraft's six instruments and to practice coordinated multi- instrument observations of the type that will be used at Eros. The Multispectral Imager, a visible light camera that will help determine the physical characteristics of Eros, and the NEAR- Infrared Spectrograph, used to study surface minerals, will be calibrated by comparing their readings of geological features with proven measurements of the same areas. These instruments will also be used to take images of the Earth along the spacecraft's path. NEAR's Magnetometer will be calibrated by comparing swingby data with known measurements of the Earth's magnetic field. Other activities during the swingby will include using the X-Ray/Gamma-Ray Spectrometer to observe celestial gamma ray bursts and to collect data on gamma ray and X-ray backgrounds. These data are needed so scientists can better remove background impurities from the measurements to be made at Eros. NEAR is expected to capture its first images of Eros, a 25- mile-long near-Earth asteroid, a few months prior to the 100th anniversary of the asteroid's discovery on Aug. 13, 1898. After reaching Eros, the spacecraft will start its orbit about 600 miles above the asteroid's surface, descending to 200 miles by February and coming as close as 10 miles during its yearlong study. Scientists will thoroughly map Eros and will examine its surface composition and physical properties. On Feb. 6, 2000, the mission is expected to end with a controlled descent onto the asteroid, sending dozens of high-resolution pictures as the spacecraft closes in on Eros. The NEAR mission will be the first close-up study of an asteroid. APL, the first non-NASA center to conduct a NASA planetary mission, is managing the mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, DC. Information on the NEAR mission, including a list of areas most likely to see NEAR's sunglint and how to find NEAR as it swings by Earth, is available on the Internet at: http://sd-www.jhuapl.edu/NEAR/ - end - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 04:17:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13225; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:15 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Off the wall Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:12:56 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cc6033.100523430 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QNq2E1.0.TE3.HQUnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is it possible that neutrinos are the "particle" side of a wave particle duality, in which the waves are longitudinal? Just as photons are the particle side of transverse waves. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 04:18:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13264; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:21 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: the gravity associated with ZP energy. Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:13:00 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ce6520.101783948 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <452d88e0.34c3945c aol.com> In-Reply-To: <452d88e0.34c3945c aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_DYbw1.0.6F3.QQUnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:58:50 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: [snip] >So it appears that if zero point energy has no gravity it must not be moving. As would perhaps be the case for stationary waves as opposed to travelling waves? > >If we attach a gravitational field the ZPE become real energy and moves away >at c. The energy now experiences a force that produces the gravitational >field associated with all postive energy. I believe that this is profound >link. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 04:18:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13216; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Stagewise deuteron excitement Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:12:53 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cb5e94.100107823 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"65kZv1.0.NE3.HQUnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:21:33 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >(10) A fusor type device should be operated in a strong magnetic field and >the frequency should match the nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) frequency >for the field strength employed. If the goal is to maximize neutron [snip] Isn't the NMR frequency, the frequency at which the entire nucleus "flips" in the magnetic field? And isn't the effect you are trying to achieve (in the case of D), the flipping of only the P or the N, without the other particle? Wouldn't this lead to a different frequency? >(12) An electron linear accelerator with a LiD target might produce >significant neutron strippping, especially if the electrons could be >delivered in a strong pulse, i.e. high density. The problem with using Sounds like a job for Ken Shoulders' EVs. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 04:19:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13308; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:14:34 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:13:06 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34d17d7e.108022903 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971107211237.00a28620@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971203173000.00af04e0@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120163459.054462 b0 spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980120163459.054462b0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1QTYr1.0.jF3.ZQUnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:34:59 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] >At 09:46 PM 12/4/97 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Surely the only D lost is that which actually undergoes a reaction, as >>with a little engineering, the non-reacted D can be recycled. So I >>find the cost of D as a reason for not following through, a bit weak. >>You also mention "net energy production". Lack thereof seems a more >>probable reason. > > No, you convert a lot of the deuterium into ordinary hydrogen. Done >right, you can strip a thousand neutrons from deuterium for every energy >generating event, but realistic plans call for 30 to 100 such "wasted" >deuterons. It gets expensive enough that other techniques, such as Be11-p, >get interesting. Surely, when deuterium is converted to ordinary hydrogen, free neutrons are left over. It seems that if you surround the container with enough neutron absorbing material, eventually almost every one of those free neutrons will be absorbed by another nucleus, releasing energy (just what we want). IOW no deuterium is lost, that doesn't eventually result in a larger energy release / neutron than was required to strip that neutron in the first place. (Of course much energy will be spent in wasted collisions that don't result in stripped neutrons, but once again, this is wasted energy, not wasted deuterium). > >>I am also curious exactly how significant. Presumably by "runaways", >>you mean the very tail end of the distribution? > > Well, sort of. If you have a plasma in an accellerating electric field, >most of the positive ions will be slowed by collisions with other >particles. But the probability of collisions goes down as the speed goes >up, so some particles are "runaways" that get accellerated to several keV. I don't see why the probability of collision would go down, as the speed goes up, unless it has to do with the dependance of the nuclear cross section on the DeBroglie wavelength (Breit-Wigner). [snip] >Most of the stripping I have >seen was with a Z-pinch. (Probably most that you have seen as well, if you I know you have previously done a calculation here, on the mag. field strength in a Z-pinch, but I have forgotten. Could you give me a quick order of magnitude estimate? [snip] > No, the number of runaway particles at any one time while small in >relation to the entire plasma is such that with any sort of confinement, >all particles are runaways several times per second. The important thing >to know is that you have a two-humped distribution, not a bell curve. Sorry, what distribution are you talking about here? [snip] >binding energy indicates. It is simplistic to think that the reaction that >occurs is spontaneous decay of the neutron, (d --> p + p + e + >antineutrino) since the signature of stripping is lots of low to moderate >energy neutrons. I didn't think that anyway. But you are obviously referring to some particular explanation, that I am unaware of. Could you post a few refs.? [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 04:18:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09640; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:13:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:13:14 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: the gravity associated with ZP energy. Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:13:03 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cf65e9.101985720 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199801200019.QAA15201 Au.oro.net> In-Reply-To: <199801200019.QAA15201 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-r-tS1.0.TM2.PPUnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: [snip] >>I'd like to look at the numbers. Could you give >>me the references? It would be great if this >>information were posted somewhere. >> >>Jack Smith [snip] There is an article on this in the latest edition of New Scientist: NS - 17 Jan. 1998 No2117 page 38. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 04:30:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA15880; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:28:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 04:28:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Mills in error? Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:25:59 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980121123159804.AAB211 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"6hhKb3.0.1u3.8eUnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott says: > Considering everything that the matter which constitutes > the Earth has been through since the Big Bang, I'd say it's a certainty > that most/all of our terrestrial hydrogen would already be in the hydrino > state...if such a state existed. If even a little of our hydrogen was > naturally in the hydrino state, we would surely already know all about it. I don't think so. Hydrogen is chemically active, and gets bound into all kinds of compounds where it does not participate in the very specific catalysis Mills postulates. The hydrino state doesn't respond to easy ionization, so it does not show up in normal spectroscopy, and doesn't enter into normal chemical reactions. Thus Mills' argument for hydrinos being the 'dark matter' eluding the cosmologists. Even in experiments specifically designed to detect hydrinos, the signature is a bit fuzzy and you could argue 'artifact', as CF critics are fond of doing with very much clearer signatures. Hydrinos can be pumped back to normal matter, but it takes photon energy comparable to what was given up in the transition, and that is in the EUV, where measurement is very difficult. I'm not claiming Mills is right -- I don't know. I'm just arguing from what I understand of his position. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 07:13:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05867; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:09:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:09:14 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <52b1b774.34c60eea aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:06:15 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: the range of force interaction Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ktjoH3.0.bR1.P-Wnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robbin S. I have read you home page at. http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa ............................... You are almost correct. I said almost the same thing during a priviate follow up meeting at. Event at Wright State Univ You are missing one key point. The nuclear force does not leave the nucleus. It stays within a fermi or two of the nucleus reguardless of the size of the nucleus. It does not leave the nucleus because free space is not permeabile the the nuclear force. Electron condensations effect the permeability of free space to the various forces. For example the electric field goes on forever....it does not saturate. The electric field remains confined within a superconductor do to its infinate conductivity. From the point of view of the superconductor free space is impermeable to the electric field. Superconductors are permeable to the strong nuclear. This is what increases the range, not a longer DeBroglie wavelength. Superocnductors expell the gravitomagnetic field...the Tampere Effect. The concepts here go beyond nuclear and extend to the gravitational as well. While at ANS in Orlando I asked Geroge Miley, "Do the daughter nucleos tend to cluster around the magic numbers." Geroge responded that the clustering of the daughters around the magic numbers was "STRIKING!" This imples that the spin orbit force is at work. It tends to cluster nucleons parwise into staple configurations. This coupling results in the formation of stable daughter with nucleon numbers at the magic level. I belive that the electron condensation is permeable to the spin orbit force. This force is the equivalent of the magnetic force. It is sort of a "nuclear megnetic force" Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 07:27:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10167; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:24:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:24:45 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Copper-Hydrogen Discharge Device Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:20:32 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2680$1d870820$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"E7-wE2.0.aU2.xCXnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex A Copper-Hydrogen Discharge Device patterned after the H-6 Mercury Discharge Lamp might produce LLs-Hydrinos-Electrinos: 1.5 inch long Quartz or Ceramic Tube, 0.25 inches diameter with 0.094 inch bore with tungsten leads protruding into the bore filled with H2 and Cu and/or K. The pressure can safely build up to 110 atmospheres (1620 psi)with the brightness approximately 1/5 that of the Sun (if uncovered). A circulating water or NaK cooling jacket must be used to remove the kilowatts of heat produced and facilitate O/U calorimetry. A suitable transformer with 120,240 volt A.C. primary and 860 volt 1.5 ampere secondary (1200 volts open circuit)can be used. WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER (in case it POPS)! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 08:17:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16948; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:05:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:05:38 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C61C7D.3389FA39 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:04:13 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Nice Quote about Vacuum from Physics Today References: <199801210449.UAA17155 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lQ-Fo3.0.j84.FpXnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > Also, keep in mind the recent findings of the solar neutrino flux variation > on the ~28 day cycle as this implicates the sun in forcing the period of the > lunar orbit. You've stated this once before. Does this observation hold true for the other planets and their moons in our solar system? Illustrating those relationships would go a long way towards wider attention to your theories. I recall asking a similar question in an earlier post, but never saw a reply. ~~~~~~ Thu, 15 Jan 1998 Ross Tessien wrote: > Now, orient the tire in a horizontal plane and start it spinning a bit. > Finally, add a motor to push the tire horizontally back and forth, in time > with the imbalance passing the near and far side. > > The input impetus of the motor will act on all of the mass if the connection > is via gravitation (rather than the axle). But the imbalance will still > allow an assymetric coupling to the system and will allow the input > gravitational waves to accelerate or decelerate the earths rotation just > like the wheels rotation. Very interesting perspective. Basically you propose a celestial inertial drive mechanism to induce a 'flywheel' type rotation in orbiting bodies. How do you account for biased rotational direction? If these pulses are spherical, and uniformly tangential to a planet surface, wouldn't counter rotation, or zero rotation of some planets be just as likely? Have you analyzed the rotations other planets in our solar system with respect to this cycle (what about uniform gas giants)? The rotation of the solar system with respect to the Milky Way cycle (elliptical orbits as the imbalance system)? ~~~~~~ Did I miss your reply? -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 08:50:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24125; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:41:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:41:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , Subject: Re: Mills in error? Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:36:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd268a$b705e0c0$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"A-Bbw1.0.ru5.YKYnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 5:35 AM Subject: Re: Mills in error? >Scott says: > >> Considering everything that the matter which constitutes >> the Earth has been through since the Big Bang, I'd say it's a certainty >> that most/all of our terrestrial hydrogen would already be in the hydrino >> state...if such a state existed. If even a little of our hydrogen was >> naturally in the hydrino state, we would surely already know all about >it. How many of those 1.0E10 neutrinos/cm^2 going through us and our porridge EVERY SECOND, do we surely already know about. :-) > >I don't think so. Hydrogen is chemically active, and gets bound into all >kinds of compounds where it does not participate in the very specific >catalysis Mills postulates. Hydrogen the MOST Abundant ELEMENT in the Universe has to be stripped BARE (H+ or D+)to form the Hydrino-Deutrino which along with other bound neutral particles including neutrinos makes up the DARK MATTER that is over 90% of the mass of the Universe, and is extremely hard to detect because of it's lack of charge, and thus it's virtully undectectable interaction with "normal" matter. >Thus Mills' argument for hydrinos >being the 'dark matter' eluding the cosmologists. Even in experiments >specifically designed to detect hydrinos, the signature is a bit fuzzy and >you could argue 'artifact', as CF critics are fond of doing with very much >clearer signatures. I Think that although the Hydrino interaction cross-section is low as seen with the CF-Related O/U effects and transmutations, things will be more clear-cut as time goes by, as is seen with the neutrino (the lightest DARK MATTER)detection technology. > >Hydrinos can be pumped back to normal matter, but it takes photon energy >comparable to what was given up in the transition, and that is in the EUV, >where measurement is very difficult. Sounds right, but I think you are talking photons (x-ray-gamma)of 0.255 Mev or better. Lots of these on the Sun's surface-Corona. > >I'm not claiming Mills is right -- I don't know. I'm just arguing from what >I understand of his position. A valid argument. Without the Hydrino Effect, one ev to a few kev thermonuclear reactions attained in the laboratory (D-D, D-T, D-He3, P-Li7, P-B etc.) WOULD NOT be possible. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Mike Carrell > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 09:40:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17511; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:35:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:35:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199801211730.MAA26751 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Infinte Energy on Oprah Winfrey Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 12:36:03 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"ReITw2.0.XH4.r7Znq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: It has come to our attention that the Infinite Energy magazine web site will be mentioned publicly by Gerald Celente today on the Oprah Winfrey show -- airs 4:00 pm eastern US time. The program was pre-taped, according to Celente. Gerald is the author of Trends 2000, a book that is selling very well these days -- it is in paperback edition. It gives a very welcome and highly effective plug for Infinite Energy. The Oprah program today has the general theme of "how to make a million in the new millennium." Best -- Gene Mallove Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 10:28:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30161; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:24:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:23:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801211823.MAA23547 dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Infinte Energy on Oprah Winfrey To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: editor infinite-energy.com Resent-Message-ID: <"vCs6Y1.0.4N7.ArZnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 21, 19998 'Gene, you wrote: > >It has come to our attention that the Infinite Energy magazine web >site will be mentioned publicly by Gerald Celente today on the Oprah >Winfrey show -- airs 4:00 pm eastern US time. The program was >pre-taped, according to Celente. Gerald is the author of Trends 2000, >a book that is selling very well these days -- it is in paperback >edition. It gives a very welcome and highly effective plug for >Infinite Energy. > >The Oprah program today has the general theme of "how to make a >million in the new millennium." A few days ago, Art Bell gave an interview to Celente on his Trends 2,000 book and his Trend 2,000 Journal newsletter. In the interview, Celente gave a positive plug for cold fusion as the inexorable energy source for the future as well ZPE possibilities. He mentioned "Mallove's Infinite Energy" contacting the media about the CETI coverage on ABC and nobody took up the notice. There was another repeat of Bell's interview with you some time ago on cold fusion --- a repeat to cover for his bout with the flu. It was interesting listening to parts of it again. I picked up your mention of Mitchell Swartz also looking over the MIT results and finding even more of the 'fudging' of the results than you first found. Have you two ever gotten together and compared notes on this? -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 10:42:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01301; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:37:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:37:59 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980121133810.0549e3e0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:38:10 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Quantum Teleportation Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199712131344.HAA09983 dsm7.dsmnet.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19971212125335.00a7b8a0 spectre.mitre.org> <199712112257_MC2-2BAF-55E7 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UVXEX.0.9K.52anq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:44 AM 12/13/97, Dean T. Miller wrote: >This thread isn't off topic -- it's dead on the topics of this list. I left the header there because I do think it is off topic, but not too far. Quantum Teleportation doesn't really have to do with energy sources, but it reaffirms that whatever we do must agree with quantum mechanics and QCD, but that doesn't seem to be much of a limitation! >The reason it's on-topic is that a 'teleported' particle is really either >a transmuted particle or a particle created from energy. Since we've >talked a lot about transmutation, I'd think that teleporting is an >extreme case of transmutation (or transmutation is a subset of >teleporting/replicating). QT duplicates the quantum properities of one particle, right now a photon, but conceptually it could be an atom, in another particle which never interacts directly with the first. Entangle two photons A and B, then take A over to M and entangle them. Do it right, and B which has never come near M, is indistinguishable in a quantum sense, from M. Action at a very spooky and instantaneous distance. >I don't see replication on the subatomic scale as being likely in the >next few years (or centuries?). Right. It was first accomplished in the laboratory before you wrote that, but I had only seen preprints. ;-) (The public splash was about Christmas.) Yes, QT is just a first step toward the Star Trek transporter, but the rest is "just" engineering. Note that hidden variable theories are now stone cold dead. If you can copy the variables, they aren't hidden. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 10:50:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14378; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:38:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:38:00 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980120174820.00a81d3c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:37:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: incandescent W vs gases, Run 8 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"R4axL3.0.YW3.42anq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: [snip] >"The water vapor coming into contact with the filament is decomposed, the >oxygen combining with the tungsten and the hydrogen being evolved. The >oxide distils to the bulb, where it is subsequently reduced to metallic >tungsten by atomic hydrogen given off by the filament, water vapor being >simulataneously produced." > >The last part about the atomic hydrogen being responsible for the reduction >of the tungsten oxide finally makes the water cycle plausible for me. I >just couldn't see the oxide "coming apart" all by itself on the colder wall >of the chamber. > >An interesting statement by Dushman concerns the thermal behavior of the >atomic hydrogen: > >"At temperatures above 2000K, this dissociation of gas in contact with the >filament causes the absorption of a very large quantity of heat. The >atomic hydrogen produced diffuses out and recombines at the walls to form >molecules with liberation of heat. This explains the observation that the >energy loss from a tungsten wire heated in hydrogen is many times greater >than it should be on the assumption that the heat loss is due exclusively >to themal conduction by the gas." This all makes a lot of sense to me. I want to add that stainless steel walls (and most other metals) have an oxide film. This film does not go away by baking. Because atomic hydrogen is very reactive (H2 --> 2 H - about 100 kcal/mole), the atomic H reduces some of this oxide, thereby starting the water cycle. (With stainless stee, atomic H reduces the Fe and Ni oxides, but not the Cr oxides. It is the tough, adherent Cr oxide film that protects stainless steesl from corrosion.) If wall oxide is the source of your filiment erosion in BLP replications, then the only solution might indeed be to getter or cold trap the water vapor. Getters getter H2 as well as many contaminant gases. I think that getters are incompatible with your experiment. I suggested connecting a small cold trap to your chamber previously. Scott responded: >What will happen when the >trap is at LN2 temp and the lines are full of H2 at 2 torr (i.e. the target >operating conditions)? Will the gas conduct heat into the trap at an >undesirably high rate? Not necessarily. First, you already have conduction through H2 gas in your pumpout tube, at least out to your isolation valve. The temperature difference between hot gas in your chamber at 280 C = 550 K and lab ambient air at about 300 K is 250 K. Compare this with the difference between ambient air and liquid nitrogen, 300 K - 80 K = 220 K. If the length and crossection of the tube to the cold trap are equal to those of the pump tube, you will have no steeper temperature gradient than you already have. Actually, heat from your chamber conducts through the pumpout line, H2 gas, wires for filament, etc. to lab ambient. Hydrogen is a good thermal conductor, for a gas, but Cu wires to the filament are better. Anyway, back to the cold trap. Make the cold trap from a length of stainless steel tubing. Stainless is a very poor thermal conductor, less than 0.15 W/(m K), about 30 times less than Cu. Thin wall tubing reduces thermal conduction. I am thinking that you can Tee the cold trap tube off of your vacuum pump tube. Run the trap tube vertically downward. Keep about 10 cm of this tube open to room air, above the cooled end of the tube. This upper length of tube will be near air temperature, and it will help isolate your cold trap from your chamber. This is consistent with my comment above about keeping the thermal gradient seen by H2 no steeper than it already is. The thermal gradient, with hot on top and cold at the bottom, is stable against ocnvection. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 10:58:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17027; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:54:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:54:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34C63EB9.734D70BF verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:30:17 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Horace's dream is realized ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SDQi23.0.y94.OHanq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Condensed Matter, abstract cond-mat/9801187 From: Jorge O. Sofo Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:30:28 GMT (40kb) Multilayer Thermionic Refrigerator and Generator Authors: G.D. Mahan, J.O. Sofo, M. Bartkowiak Comments: 17 pages with 5 postscript figures, submitted to J. Appl. Phys Report-no: Report CNEA-CAB 34-01-98 A new method of refrigeration is proposed. Cooling is obtained by thermionic emission of electrons over periodic barriers in a multilayer geometry. These could be either Schottky barriers between metals and semiconductors or else barriers in a semiconductor superlattice. The same device is an efficient power generator. A complete theory is provided. Anounced yesterday, available from http://xxx.lanl.gov (already posted to Horace) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 11:01:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17589; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:57:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:57:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980121135346.009e2490 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:53:46 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Dangers of potassium Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com, viv@ictus.demon.co.uk, bracewell@nova.stanford.edu, Spelve aol.com, jmb@cs.su.oz.au, mwhitten@cyllene.uwa.edu.au In-Reply-To: <66193cab.3493da11 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jq6gl1.0.kI4.AKanq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:07 AM 12/14/97 EST, Geosas wrote: >Thanks to Frederick Sparber for the info on carbon 14. We >have no means of knowing whether the carbon in my K2CO3 >is ancient or modern. I tried a 56-gram lump of coal on my >alpha window and got 37.9 cpm with coal, 35.7 without, over >10-min. periods. This is not significant, the standard deviation >being about 2 cpm. This is ancient carbon with the C14 long gone, >but there may be other radionuclides in there. If I had some >barbecue charcoal (modern C) I could try this, but it would also >contain potassium. Burning coal reduces the average radioactivity of the air, as the CO2 produced is nearly pure C12, with very minor amounts of (non-radioactive) C13. Any C14 in the original organic material decayed millions of years ago. But burning coal does add radioactivity to the air also. In fact one coal burning power plant puts more radioactive material in the air in one year than all the nuclear plants ever built ever emitted. Of course, the bulk of the radioactive material is potassium K40 in the fly ash, and the rate of radioactivity is very low. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 11:44:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18018; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:38:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:38:51 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:19:12 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Copper-Hydrogen Discharge Device Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"qWrNg.0.QP4.9xanq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-21 10:28:26 EST, you write: > A suitable transformer with 120,240 volt A.C. > primary and 860 volt 1.5 ampere secondary (1200 volts open circuit)can >be used. > > WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER (in case it POPS)! > > Regards, Frederick I think that old microwave transformer power supply that has been gathering dust in my garage may work. Thanks. Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 12:07:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24218; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:03:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:03:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:03:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199801212003.MAA02211 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: the gravity associated with ZP energy. Resent-Message-ID: <"bEtiz1.0.8w5.EIbnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:58:50 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >[snip] >>So it appears that if zero point energy has no gravity it must not be moving. > >As would perhaps be the case for stationary waves as opposed to >travelling waves? > >> >>If we attach a gravitational field the ZPE become real energy and moves away >>at c. The energy now experiences a force Think carefully about what you say when you use the term, "Force". All you are doing is tacitly stating without knowing it, "I don't know how the action is communicated, but this thing accelerates like this relative to that." When you first begin to wonder how the thing over there knew to accelerate in such and such direction, then you realize that there indeed must be some structure of standing waves permeating the entire universe. In the 1800's, at the end, they discovered this. They called it a vortex sponge. And yes, spacetime and zpe are one and the same acoustic standing wave structure. ' What is better, you can trace out interactions of waves of aether, you would say zpe, as they slosh the earth around on their way away from the sun. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 13:24:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14269; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:18:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:18:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980121161738.054b7540 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:17:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Podkletnov effect and correction for density issues Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jRzF92.0.mU3.9Ocnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >At 1:52 PM 12/16/97, Mitchell Swartz wrote: >Vorts: > > The following URL > >http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/dpb.html > >discusses an interesting issue which had not noticed mentioned >in this matter previously... Horace Heffner added: >Interesting - two hypotheses for sources of error easily fixed by measuring >temperature in the vicinity of the lightened object. One says the >temperature there is lowered, the other says it is raised. This makes some of the accusations of gross negligence in CF look polite and well thought out! Think! The whole thing started when smoke from a pipe was notice to rise over the apparatus. This is very strange over a container of liquid nitrogen, as we all know that cold air is denser and flows downward. Now if someone was proposing that the Potkletnov effect was due to heating the air through some unspecified mechanism, that could be tested, lets see, I know! by making measurements in the room above the apparatus. But the effect was detected there also, according to Podkletnov. The Podkletnov effect may be experimental error or some such, but this is certainly not it. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 13:53:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15035; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:46:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:46:29 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C55751.E49C18B2 ihug.co.nz> References: <19980120165709.AAA4045 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:44:42 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"5SYtD3.0.Vg3.gocnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Clinton Rawls wrote: > > I have been a Vort for several weeks now and I have watching for messages > that refer specifically to the vortex phenomenon but I have not seen a > single one out of many hundreds of messages. Clinton, The secrets of the vortex is a story of discovery, undiscovery and my present efforts of rediscovery. In the old days, the days before computers, there was a concept in dynamical meteorology known as negative viscosity. It worked quite well in describing meteorological phenomena like high and low pressure cells, hurricanes and tornados. The basis of negative viscosity was only empirical. There always was a theoretical bias against it and it was only used because it seemed to work when applied to tropospheric dynamics. With the advent of computers came the development of artificial computer rigging in computer models and negative viscosity was dropped and replaced by artificial computer rigging. Also about 20 years ago there was a well respected investigator in meteorology who thought that the known higher order corrections in molecular transport theory should have a counterpart in eddy transport (another name for turbulence) theory. Because of his high status and position his papers on this theory were published. However his theory was ignored by other investigators in the field and it was thought that the person had become too old and senile and had crackpotted out. His previous status of great influence rapidly eroded after the publication of his theory. In my work I have found that higher order eddy transport theory actually gives negative viscosity. So not only had the empirical basis of negative viscosity been established, but the theoretical basis from which it could have been derived had been proposed 20 years ago. This was all rejected in favor of artificial computer rigging. So the secret of the vortex, according to my work and some old work in meteorology, is negative viscosity. Negative viscosity is a wonderful thing. Just as positive viscosity works against us by wasting energy, negative viscosity may be used to create energy. It is what allows tornados to continue rotating without damping down. There is great interest in this discussion group in using the secret of the vortex to produce free or nearly free energy. There are some discussions here of machines developed by people such as Huffman, Clem and others which possibly may do this. You don't actually need a vortex to take advantage of the secret of the vortex, you just need negative viscosity. The two essential ingredients necessary are high turbulence and high velocity shear. So a machine can take advantage of the secret of the vortex without actually containing a vortex. It just has to generate negative viscosity. One of the many machines discussed here in which there is considerable interest is the Patterson Power Cell (PPC). It has many small spheres with water flowing past them. The design causes both velocity shear and turbulence so you have both ingredients required for negative viscosity. Around these spheres there can be chemical reactions occurring with the chemical molecules formed having an attraction toward the sphere surface. If there is enough negative viscosity it could rip these chemical molecules free from the sphere. Thus the negative viscosity would be doing work against a chemical potential. The PPC, which is being developed by a company called CETI, is well designed to harness the secret of the vortex. We have a very cranky and angry person here by the name of Jed Rothwell who insists that any energy produced by this cell is due to nuclear fusion even though the expected products, such as neutrons, have never been observed. If you want to learn about the secret of the vortex it is best to ignore everything from this person and others like him as they are only cold nuclear fusion advocates. There is an old textbook on negative viscosity that you could read but I don't think it would be much help. This probably is the best place to learn about the vortex, you just to go through a lot of non-vortex stuff to get to a small amount of actual vortex stuff. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 14:09:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17143; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:59:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:59:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C68AA1.6F41 keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:54:09 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Testatika Observations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tQ8FI.0.jB4.U-cnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks! Terry Bastian posted this list of claims/observations he has compiled on the Testatika...pieces of the puzzle....Terry can be contacted at tbastian dmv.com. ------------------------------ After some research on electrostatic machines and the earths field Ive come up with some ideas for a M-L machine..... Any inputs, additions or anything that I might of overlooked to get a machine functional...... Some of the listing may seem familiar due to the fact that I heard them from other sources..... Some of my notes of a possible working TESTATIKA (SWISS ML) MACHINE Each sector is an accumulator of the earths electric field charging over a longer period of time than the discharge time into the collector(magnatron) The charge time is dependent upon the most efficent rate the earth's field can support without loading it down or shorting it to ground (impedance match) Earth's electrostatic impedance can be possibily determined by the voltage gradient and the resistance of the atmosphere within the gradient and the overall current flow (Ohm's Law) The central corona motor can be excited by a pulsing high voltage potential at a frequency that would match the rotatonal mechanical resonance of the collector disks to promote sustained rotation with minimum effort once set in motion Using the so-called 'Poggendorf Effect' is intriguing, using slanted electrodes to provide a driving force to the disks when the electrodes discharged in rapid bursts.....possibly making it self-running Use self contained magnetic bearings and enclose system within a airtight case with a reduced pressure of air or helium (reduce drag and decrease arcing) Use high dielectric factor materials for the dual counter rotating sector disks to promote higher capcitance and electrostatic fields per sector accumulator The horseshoe shaped coils are part of a frequency generating stabilization system (to maintain a mechanical and electrical resonance), the inductance fields generated are kept to a minimum (similar to torroid) or perhaps the fields become more directive and controllable from the open end The sector charge transfer is done thru non contact mainly a series of rough (textured)needles on the sectors and collectors that pass by one another thru the small spaces between the needles to transfer the charge (meshing no friction, like 2 hair combs passing each other thru the spacing between teeth) Each grid sector is made of a lightweight screen not solid material or is perhaps electricaly/chemicaly plated to the sector disk (lightweight) Output power is directly related to the size of the rotor disks and sectors, also speed of disc rotation Coating of some of the collectors with a alpha particle substance to enhance the "electron grounding/polarising" effect, perhaps to allow more of the atmospheric energy to be drawn for output power ---------------------------------------- And I agree with Chris, the arguing about cult status or not is irrelevant and has no future....let's stick with details (as much as is available) and productive discussions that will lead to experiments....Jerry -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 15:57:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05170; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:53:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:53:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:46:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Frank Chilton , mind-l@aquathought.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, rife-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Believe it or not (fwd) --- I BELIEVE IT IS POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8jn2B3.0.XG1.xfenq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I am guessing this subject matter is involving the intense fields caused by capacitor discharge through a reasonably low impedance coil for the purposes of magnetic stimulation. Correct? If so, this is VERY damaging and dangerous. I will be happy to elaborate if you wish. The pulsed magnetic stimulation desribed above can abd has, when applied to the head, cause both temporary and permanent blindness. And it can be worse. JHS On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Chuck Davis wrote: > On 19-Jan-98, Frank Chilton wrote: > >It is nice that people feel so creative. But they may be chancing much > >more risk than they think. A short from the coil to the body could be > >harmful or fatal. > >Having invented, studied and spent a lot of time on magnetoanesthesia, > >using pulsed magnetic fields, on monkeys --- I wonder if those willing > >self-subjects had any idea how hard it is to control the induced > >currents which flow from the changing magnetic fields? Putting coils > >around the heart is particularly unwise. > >Your right Chuck, I found it interesting.Frank > > Well, I don't think this comment sould stop with me ;) > -- > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ > -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' > http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 17:43:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23335; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:37:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:37:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000901bd2673$089f6400$6cefd4cf natvita.ihug.co.nz> From: "natvita" To: Subject: Re: anyone? Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:46:51 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"_cZKS.0.Pi5.bBgnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, can anyone help me trace address for Seoul based Kee-Bang Lee? regards all, Robert Beasley From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 17:52:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30810; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:49:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:49:36 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Yusmar - cavitation - atomization - Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:49:19 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ca91fc.178826364 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Prf_h2.0.8X7.jMgnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:01:23 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: [snip] >I smiled and gave Yuri the tumbs up when I heard the sound. Yuri, however, >did not like it. He said the cavitation bubbles were much to large. He keep >on adjusting the orifice (tuning the Yusmar) in an effort to reduce the >cavitation sound. Yuri told me that hunderds of thousands of very tiny >cavitation sites are required in a properly adjusted Yusmar. These tiny sites >make no cavitation sound. John Barron and I considered redesigning the >venturi on the Yusmar to make it like a perfume atomizer. We never did this. >We are also limited in resources. [snip] Yuri's response makes sense. Because the most energy is represented by the shortest wavelengths, the change in energy content is greatest when either the bubble or droplet is smallest. It is also a double edged sword. Small bubbles represent more energy per bubble, and there are also more of them. The size of the bubbles/droplets (it may not matter which path you follow), will have a very strong influence on the energy output, e.g. kW's for micro bubbles, micro-watts for macro-bubbles. Because energy output will go with the inverse radius, but energy expended will go with the volume, the ratio of output energy to input will go with the inverse 4th power of the radius. (Hal please feel free to correct me on this). IOW halving the size of the bubbles will 16 fold the ratio of output power to input power. >From this you can also immediately see that bubbles don't have to get too large, before any apparent output power disappears below the detection threshold. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 17:52:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30838; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:49:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:49:40 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills in error? Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:49:22 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cb9d79.181767985 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <2d20197d.34c548af aol.com> <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tRmvT3.0.bX7.mMgnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:49:41 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >What about his postulation that hydrinos are a stable lower-energy form of >hydrogen atoms? Considering everything that the matter which constitutes >the Earth has been through since the Big Bang, I'd say it's a certainty >that most/all of our terrestrial hydrogen would already be in the hydrino >state...if such a state existed. If even a little of our hydrogen was >naturally in the hydrino state, we would surely already know all about it. [snip] As well as the arguments against this already put forward by others, don't forget Mills' own point that these tiny, unreactive molecules rapidly leave the earth's atmosphere once formed, ending up in outer space (because they are lighter than air). So don't expect to find many of them on the Earth's surface (though perhaps there may be a few in our sources of Helium?) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 18:14:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27096; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:04:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:04:03 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <750e2a71.34c6a4c5 aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:45:39 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: off topic win 95 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"B8hrI.0.Gd6.Eagnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If your are thinking of upgrading to win 95 I've just done it and it took 5 hrs. I had to. Add more memory Run Scandisk/all and delete *.chk files remove the anti virus that came with the computer from the bios remove the IBM anti virus that I installed by editing the autoexec.bat to remove imav Run memaker to remove "scan upper area aggressively" close file manager five hrs later its up and running and my modem speed is still 38.8 not 56 Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 18:13:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00605; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:01:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:01:49 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:01:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Believe it or not (fwd) --- I BELIEVE IT IS POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS Resent-Message-ID: <"8Vj6N3.0.M9.CYgnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > I am guessing this subject matter is involving the intense fields >caused by capacitor discharge through a reasonably low impedance coil for >the purposes of magnetic stimulation. > > Correct? > > If so, this is VERY damaging and dangerous. I will be happy to >elaborate if you wish. The pulsed magnetic stimulation desribed above >can abd has, when applied to the head, cause both temporary and permanent >blindness. And it can be worse. > > > JHS not necessarily. this is from Science News, Vol. 153, 1/3/98, page 11: >Magnetic Mood Brightener > >Magnetic stimulation of the brain shows promise as a treatment for >depression, a pilot study finds. > >A team headed by Mark S. George, a psychiatrist at the Medical University >of South Carolina in Charleston, administered transcranial magnetic >stimulation for 10 days over a 2-week period to 12 adults suffering from >major depression or manic depression. An electromagnet placed over the >scalp delivered pulses to the front of the brain's left side, possibly >halting neural communication in that area temporarily. The volunteers were >assigned at random to receive either the active treatment or stimulation >that did not reach the brain. > >Only the transcranial procedure markedly lifted mood, George's group >reports in the December 1997 American Journal Of Psychiatry. If longer >trials confirm this effect and illuminate how the technique works, it may >provide an alternative to antidepressant drugs, the scientists say. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 19:46:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA31249; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:44:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:44:23 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:29:36 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"d2tLc2.0.2e7.L2inq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-21 16:50:17 EST, you write: > We have a very cranky and angry person here by the name of Jed Rothwell > who insists that any energy produced by this cell is due to nuclear fusion > even though the expected products, such as neutrons, have never been > observed. > > Lawrence E. Wharton Larry, I have never seen Jed Rothwell insist that nuclear fusion is the source of the energy produced by this cell. Do you have a specific reference where/when he did so state that? Thanks. Regards, Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:02:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01580; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:55:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:55:26 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <44417ee9.34c6bf47 aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:38:45 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"z7GE.0.ZO.hCinq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-21 21:11:04 EST, you write: > five hrs later its up and running and my modem speed is still 38.8 not 56 > Frank Znidarsic Frank, did you go into the AOL setup and change the modem speed setting? If you set it to 57600 it will try to run at the highest speed the connection will support. Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:12:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04150; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:03:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:03:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:58:13 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: About your brain .... In general Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_UQxw2.0.m01.kKinq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., For nearly 10 years my principle responsibilty for Armstrong Aerospace Medical Research Labs was to work with the human system. More specifically the human brain. I designed and built real world intrumentation that had to work under less than idea conditions, in less than ideal environments. I looked at the work from many standpoints: molecular biology cell biology molecular biochemistry physiology signal acquisition and processing as a 'hardball, nuts and bolts, belt and suspenders engineering' view. I not only did a LOT of primary work, I learned a LOT and did then, and do now, often make statments which offend the purveyors of the 'staus quo'. I ask questions which are equally offensive to some, or worse. Some things I have learned about signals from the brain, both magnetic and electrical, follow. Some of this is approximation, and this is REQUIRED because the human system does not fit into a nice neat box, and the brain is worse! 1] about 10,000 to maybe 3,000,000 cells in the brain all come to some approximately equivalent cell wall differential potential, in the time domain, at ROUGHLY the same time in order to generate a signal of about 1 microvolt at the scalp. 2] to even SEE this potential in a half baked way, presuming you are not going to drill a hole, scalp electrodes are used. Some of these electrodes themselves are OK... some are not. The method of applying the electrodes and the preparation of the skin is also important. 3] one scalp electrode type and application and preparation protocol which works well is as follows; a] the scalp is gently abraded with a usually pumice based compound to remove some of the excess loose epidermal cell covering b] a mild detergent is used to remove some of the natural oils and other oils or cosmetic residue. We often have asked subjects to not use hair care products, other than mild baby shampoo and certainly no "conditioner". c] a medical grade alcohol is used to finish the cleaning and to slightly dry the skin. d] a calcium salts based conductive electrode cream is applied to the prepared site. We use a BUNCH ... about what would be the same as you would see on a tooth paste commercial.. to entice you to use a lot of tooth paste, or the full length of the brush. e] a similar amount of cream is placed in what is called a "cup electrode". The cup electrode is cup shaped and about 3/8 of an inch in diameter and is made of solid silver with heavy gold plate. This goopy thing is "mashed into" the goopy site. 4] if properly done on a mid percentile adult the impeance as measured at 30 cps is between 2,000 and 4,500 ohms. The goopy site is more or less protected by a 1 inch square of gauze. 5] all our proceedure and the signal equipment has to conform to Human Use Review Committee, or HURC. They examine any procedure and any new equipment or protocol. As an incidental I buildt quite a lot of custom signal equipment. See May 1994 Discover "Brain Powered" for a not-too-bad lay treatment of the USAF lab and several others around the world. I prided myself on exceeding the regulations, mostly because I respect the human system. For example leakage current from equipment to DP and L... or Dayton Power and Light, had to be less than the open heart specification at the time, which was 10 micro amperes. All but one of my set ups measured less than 1 micro amp. One measured 1.2 microamps, Iwas not happy. NOW: I really wanted... we really wanted to not only get a nice clean signal, we wanted to know, as far as we could, where is came from and how it got to us. Why? This was a grand time, primary research. You see I designed and built a system which made enough sense out of one aspect of EEG that it allowed the used to control machinery with the resultant. The term for this, which I coined, is Brain Actuated Control. I wrote and am first author on the seminal paper of this method. Some dozen more bear my name. We did everything from using Neural Circuitry to sense mental state, ie., Eyes Open, Eyes Closed and Eyes Closed while Visualizing your Surroundings to using BAC to establish a second path way from the brain to FES, or Functional Electrical Stimulation of muscles, leg muscles, so a para or quadra palegic could move their leg muscles by command from THEIR brain. Respect. Learning. OK: Back to the brain ... the maybe 100,000 or so cells all kind of "Get Together" ... and we see this TINY signal. The brain is VERY complex, miraculous, a wonder. This tiny signal was best described by analogy, in my opinion, by Maris Vicmanis: You have a microprocessor, and it is operating. You are allowed to monitor the amount of current the power supply pin is drawing. What can you tell from this? That few or many computations are taking place, or perhaps they are taking place in a rhythmic fashion. Or maybe a complex computation is being undertaken. You CANNOT tell what is being computed, what algorithms are being used, what the input and output data are or if the computations are correct or not. This TINY signal maybe comes from near the surface of the brain, or maybe deeper in. No matter where it comes from it is "smeared" by the non uniform tissues of the surrounding brain material and then is must pass through tissue layers, fatty tissue layers, the dura mater, a tough sac like membrane, the skull, the scalp.... and THEN we get the 2 to 15 micro amps. Briefly, on the magnetic front, the discipline is called MEG, or Magneto Encephalography. A super conducting Josephson Junction based Gradiometer is used. On a REAL GOOD DAY, in a shielded room, actually two rooms, one within the other, of carefully de gaussed and carefully annealed nickle iron alloy, called mu metal, the noise floor of the instrument is 20 E minus 15 Tesla, with one Tesla equal to 10,000 gauss. A "hot" brain signal might be 30 to 90 E minus 15 Tesla. The huge signal from the beating healthy adult heart might be 500 E minus 15 Tesla. A primary difference is in a magnetic acquisition the magnitude falls off with the cube of the distance and the brain and other tissues are, for all intents and purposes, transparent to the field, with the notable exception of signals with very fast transient properties, which do not, per se, originate, as far as we can tell, from within the brain. Electrical signals are "smeared" by the partially conducting tissues and brain material. I will say, in my educated opinion we do not know a whole bunch about the true operation of the brain and the signals involved are very small. Gee folks.... why did Schnurer go on so long about this? Well... I did NOT. What you just read is the "two cent tour". WHY: I have a deep and abiding respect and a partial knowledge of the brain. I have a real bad personal feeling about some types of work involving the brain. I will give two examples, One from the "New Age Quack Gadgeteers"... NAQG One from the "Legitimate Funded Research Community" ... LFRC NAQG: There is a gizmo you can buy, mail order, and is some NAQG boutiques which purports to "tune" your brain. The "well known" model was tested at AAAMRL/WPAFB and we took it a apart after we did the measures. In a nutshell it was a transformer, miniature audio output type, 8 ohms to 1,000 ohms driven by a bipolar 555 series times, with the time driving the 8 ohm winding. A nine volt battery was the supply. Two electrodes, to be soaked in salt water and applied, variously, to say the temples, or neck or forehead quite adequately delivered 30 to 80 volts pulses into a 2,000 ohm load at various rates, user adjustable. Remember a 20 micro volt surface signal. LFRC: Magnetic stimulation was used to induce "phosphenes" or the little bright spots of light, such as you might briefly get from a sharp blow to the head. This was accomplished by a magnetic stimulation unit, the development of which was funded so as to do a good job of this. The stimulator basically was the same as magnetic MUSCLE stimultors which we evaluated at AAMRL. It is a coil of 50 to 250 turns of fairly heavy copper wire, often 16 to 14 AWG, with a 2.5 to 3.5 inside diameter. This is connected to a bank of capacitors which are charged by a DC to DC convertor designed for the purpose. The style, number, type and ERS, or Equivalent Series Resistance of the capacitor bank varies from manufacturer to manufacuturer, and from research group to research group. There is little if any regulation of regard to same. In this device one of our in house "informal" tests was as follows, and we found others in the community had similar tests, which, if the unit passed, it was deemed "good " .... You put the coil flat on a non conducting and non magnetic surface, make sure the caps are topped off to spec, it takes a minute or so in some units. You put a quarter on the table and if it flips it up into the air .... if you get it right, and it is a "real good" unit, it will stick the quarter into the acoustical tile. The second test is to place the unit on the forearm and is the muscle is driven briefly in to tetany and there is a sharp pain, such as you get from the electrical stimulation used to measure nerve conduction rate, usually a constant current source with a rapid and defined rise time, then it is a "good' unit. And, in fact, it is doing what it is supposed to do. Back to the LFRC study. These folks wanted to magnetically induce the phosphenes to demonstrate that magnetic brain stimulation was as effective and electrical brain stimulation, just as the magnetic muscle stimulators are purported to be as effective and the electric ones. It is, however, generally agree the magnetic stimulators are are less specific spatially. In any even the subjects were in a dimly lit room and were asked to look at a neutral screen and tell the investigators what they saw. Some of the experiment involved images on the screen and questions as to if the images were altered. The coil was placed near the visual cortex, which is actually in a fold in the brain and really you can only put surface electrodes near it on the rounded part of the back of the skull. From the peer reviewed paper "In some subjects blindness was induced but fortunately the blindness was not permanent and lasted no longer than 45 minutes." Ionizing radiation is worse. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:21:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09879; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:19:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:19:02 -0800 Message-ID: <34C6C8A5.3039ECAA ro.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:18:46 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <750e2a71.34c6a4c5 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kxJYP3.0.GQ2.qYinq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC wrote: > If your are thinking of upgrading to win 95 I've just done it and it > took 5 > hrs. I had to. > > Add more memory > > Run Scandisk/all and delete *.chk files > > remove the anti virus that came with the computer from the bios > > remove the IBM anti virus that I installed by editing the autoexec.bat > to > remove imav > > Run memaker to remove "scan upper area aggressively" > > close file manager > > five hrs later its up and running and my modem speed is still 38.8 not > 56 > > Frank Znidarsic Frank, you have my sympathies. I, too, have just upgraded an old computer to win95. Only, now the modem refuses to work at all. You may have to download a recent driver from the manufacturer's webpage to obtain 56K speed. Good luck... -- Patrick V. Reavis Student at Large /\ / \ / G \ ~~~~~~~~ DELTA-G From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:28:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11996; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:25:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:21:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd26ed$2f976ec0$b393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"oVlO6.0.Ex2.xeinq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: >There is great interest in this discussion group >in using the secret of the vortex to produce free >energy or nearly free energy. >The two essential ingredients necessary are high >turbulence and high velocity shear. Add to this, water (or other hydrogenous material) and the creation of Light Leptons from the infrared photons involved and subsequent Hydrino formation with the release of EUV energy even from the water vapor in the atmosphere (you don't see many Dry tornadoes or hurricanes do you)? Or the Hurricanes petering out over land when the water content drops. In the quasi-static Pons and Fleischmann cells there is a lot of viscous interaction at the cathode as well as photon-releasing chemical reactions. In the Griggs Pump (and others) the high shear rates can create infrared-photons-Light Lepton Pairs-Hydrinos in the same manner. Likewise in the sonoluminescence and microcavitation phenomena. Try getting sonoluminescence in some materials like liquid SO2 or mercury or such that don't contain Hydrogen. Watch the atmospheric effects of "afternoon" thunderstorms after a hot sunny-humid morning as opposed to the winter months when the infrared solar insolation angle reduces this effect. There may be "negative viscosity" but, the energy "primer" involved is either Solar-Fossil, Nuclear,or Wave-Tidal, or ZPE in origin. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:54:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18886; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:52:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:52:46 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:52:26 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34d1ca73.193285938 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <34c205d1.173054317@mail.eisa.net.au> <19980103155044.AAA7324@HOME> <19980103155044.AAA732 4 HOME> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"76XrX3.0.Mc4.L2jnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:55:37 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >There's a slight daily shift in the magnetic field that's supposedly driven >by the sun as it drives some sort of charged winds around in the upper >atmosphere. But that shouldn't affect caps in a steel box, should it? [snip] I guess that depends on just how good the shielding of the box is. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:54:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18806; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:52:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:52:33 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: the range of force interaction Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:52:18 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cdbdd9.190059033 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <52b1b774.34c60eea aol.com> In-Reply-To: <52b1b774.34c60eea aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NVfO21.0.lb4.G2jnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:06:15 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: [snip] >Robbin S. I have read you home page at. > >http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa > >............................... >You are almost correct. I said almost the same thing during a priviate follow >up meeting at. That's funny Frank, those were precisely my thoughts on several occasions when I have read some of your posts ;). > > Event at Wright State >Univ > >You are missing one key point. The nuclear force does not leave the nucleus. >It stays within a fermi or two of the nucleus reguardless of the size of the >nucleus. It does not leave the nucleus because free space is not permeabile >the the nuclear force. > >Electron condensations effect the permeability of free space to the various >forces. For example the electric field goes on forever....it does not If this is so, then why wouldn't condensations of other charged particles also affect the permeability of free space? And what exactly is it, do you think that allows electrons to condense (and under what conditions)? And if electrons can condense, then why not other charged particles? >saturate. The electric field remains confined within a superconductor do to >its infinate conductivity. From the point of view of the superconductor free >space is impermeable to the electric field. Superconductors are permeable to >the strong nuclear. Are you suggesting that within a superconductor, no electrostatic repulsion can exist, so that only nuclear attractive forces remain? (I don't believe this, as then a superconductor would collapse physically). >This is what increases the range, not a longer DeBroglie >wavelength. Here is where we part company for sure. I think the longer DeBroglie wavelength is responsible for electron condensation in EVs, and also for a huge increase in tunnelling probability that I suspect occurs when the DeBroglie wavelength exceeds the actual distance between nuclei. (Or possibly when h-stripe/p exceeds it). P is of course smaller (and consequently the DeBroglie wavelength larger), for lighter nuclei such as D and H, so one might reasonably expect D + D fusion to occur before D + M. H + H being highly unlikely (weak force interaction), means that with H, only D + H or H + M occur to any meaningful degree. >Superocnductors expell the gravitomagnetic field...the Tampere >Effect. The concepts here go beyond nuclear and extend to the gravitational >as well. I tend to agree with this point, though that doesn't mean much. > >While at ANS in Orlando I asked Geroge Miley, "Do the daughter nucleos tend >to cluster around the magic numbers." Geroge responded that the clustering of >the daughters around the magic numbers was "STRIKING!" > >This imples that the spin orbit force is at work. It tends to cluster >nucleons parwise into staple configurations. This coupling results in the >formation of stable daughter with nucleon numbers at the magic level. This force is always at work, irrespective of the mechanism that brings about the nuclear reaction. In simple uranium fission, the daughter products also tend to cluster around the magic numbers. > >I belive that the electron condensation is permeable to the spin orbit force. >This force is the equivalent of the magnetic force. It is sort of a "nuclear >megnetic force" I think it more likely that *nuclear* condensation is "permeable to the spin orbit force", and that said nuclear condensation happens when the nuclei involved enter into the quantum realm, and can be treated as waves rather than particles. > >Frank Znidarsic > Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:55:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18843; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:52:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:52:38 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 5...the trenches of science Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:52:25 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cfc91c.192942382 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Sq8e33.0.Gc4.K2jnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:02:29 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] >BTW, he now has a book out and an Australian patent. Any vorts in OZ have >acces to it, or have a means of searching out the number? [snip] Have written a request to Dr. Farrell for the Aus. patent number. If he replies favourably, I will look it up and scan it for vortex. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 20:56:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23394; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:53:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:53:39 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:52:21 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cec569.191995639 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h8eBY3.0.Mj5.F3jnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:06:35 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] > Atomic hydrogen is also known as monoatomic hydrogen, hydrogen atoms not >in molecules. One of the weirdest phenomena in science is that it is >stable as a liquid (at about 17 degrees K) but burns to form H2 at the >hottest temperature of any purely chemical reaction. [snip] Mills points out that the H + H -> H2 reaction is one of those reactions that cannot happen spontaneously. It requires the intervention of a third body to happen at an appreciable rate, such that momentum can be distributed (the right hand side only has one particle ISO two or more). (I suspect that this is something akin to nuclear decay, where emission of a gamma-ray happens on a much longer time scale than multi-particle decay). (I wonder if this means that H + H -> H2 + UV photon can happen, but on incredibly long time scales due to the "low" energy of the photon involved?) Getting back to the third particle... this generally means that you need to have either a three body collision in the gas, or a collision with a wall (also three body BTW), to allow a reaction to occur. All of which makes sense out or your observations above. It also tends to explain why a stoichiometric mixture of H and O might be relatively stable, i.e. reactions of the type H + O -> HO are also not possible without a third body, unlike reactions such as H2 + O -> HO + H and H + O2 -> HO + O. IOW if either H2 or O2 is present, then you have a real bomb on your hands, but the unlikelihood of three body collisions prevents the pure monatomics from reacting. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 21:38:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29998; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:34:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:34:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980121231955.00849570 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:19:55 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mills in error? In-Reply-To: <34cb9d79.181767985 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700 mail.eden.com> <2d20197d.34c548af aol.com> <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYcwR1.0.cK7.Gfjnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:49 AM 1/22/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >As well as the arguments against this already put forward by others, >don't forget Mills' own point that these tiny, unreactive molecules >rapidly leave the earth's atmosphere once formed, ending up in outer >space (because they are lighter than air). Do you think hydrinos would leave faster than normal hydrogen? The atmosphere is approximately 0.5 ppm by volume hydrogen. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 21:52:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02894; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:50:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:50:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801220549.XAA27979 dsm7.dsmnet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dean T. Miller" To: eachus mitre.org Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:50:08 (-050 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [WA-A-Y OFF TOPIC] Quantum Teleportation CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980121133810.0549e3e0 spectre.mitre.org> References: <199712131344.HAA09983 dsm7.dsmnet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"OKP842.0.5j.dujnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robert, > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:38:10 -0500 > From: "Robert I. Eachus" Just so I don't clutter up the Vortex list: > At 07:44 AM 12/13/97, Dean T. Miller wrote: > QT duplicates the quantum properities of one particle, right now a > photon, but conceptually it could be an atom, in another particle which > never interacts directly with the first. Conceptually, maybe. But what I read didn't imply that all attributes were duplicated. When I see an announcement that an electron is duplicated, then I'll accept it. > >I don't see replication on the subatomic scale as being likely in the > >next few years (or centuries?). > > Right. It was first accomplished in the laboratory before you wrote > that, but I had only seen preprints. ;-) (The public splash was about > Christmas.) Yes, QT is just a first step toward the Star Trek transporter, > but the rest is "just" engineering. I haven't read the paper, just a summary with lots of hand-waving. If the claim (with evidence) is made that the full electromagnetic properties of the photon was exactly duplicated, then I'll accept that we're closer to replication than I had thought. -- Dean -- from Des Moines (KB0ZDF) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 22:04:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04783; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:02:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:02:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:01:04 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 In-Reply-To: <34C6C8A5.3039ECAA ro.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qj-vv.0.eA1.d3knq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Patrick V. Reavis wrote: > FZNIDARSIC wrote: > > If your are thinking of upgrading to win 95 I've just done it and it > > took 5hrs. I had to. > > Frank, > you have my sympathies. I, too, have just upgraded an old computer to > win95. Only, now the modem refuses to work at all. > You may have to download a recent driver from the manufacturer's webpage > to obtain 56K speed. > Good luck... > Patrick V. Reavis weird coincindence, I'm being told to uggrade my old system here by the wife. "TONIGHT" she bought a 133mhz 1+g hard 16 mg Ram so I would quite cussing every night about winDOZE95 and its demand for mor more more memory and space space space full of sloppy code.... well, she found a deal at $200.00 (SOLD! in a tower yet, no monitor (present will fit)) She said "Here, It come with WinDOZE 95 Built in!", get use to it. Question.. WHY are we "having to do this?" uggrade to windoze95?? I'm thinking this new (old/used faster) would easily handle unix now. free up the space (less win95) and set up a server! sigh, slowly being dragged along ... doesn't anyone remember the SPEED and little space a well tightly written program code uses? Where are our programmers? Not the "let's Add this game for fun on log-out here" crew. I don't mind faster, IF we really go FASTER! Are we going to miss 10 seconds from dead-cold OFF to dialing modem, and checking mail within another 30 seconds Good-by Good-night ->OFF again! 1 minute in cybertime is really Aethric vapor vs the good old 1 minute on my (pre MShour-glass) watch. maybe that's it, my watch is the problem.. It needs to be wound ... hasn't needed a battery for 17 years now.. but, thats not ou either (sigh) must need MORE annual power bat.consumption. best put this auto-wind water-proof +-2sec/yr puppy to bed. ------------------ ok, sorry to blow vapor95 here, I'm UPgrading tomorrow to the new & improved(?) system as it *IS* much faster & larger HD. It's the software killing us out here! :we will all go together when we go: -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 21 22:03:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04751; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:02:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:02:20 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:01:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: muon storage tank for fusion reactions Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: Resent-Message-ID: <"FFeil3.0.9A1.h3knq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts vorts, Suppose we have a 1D box of the "particle in a box" variety designed to hold electrons and muons. If we start putting electrons into this box, and they fall to their lowest energy level, we will begin to see that the electrons rapidly increase in energy level, since the energy states of a particle in a 1D box increase by a factor of n^2. We can continue putting electrons in this box until the energy of the highest state electrons are on the order of 100MeV -- the mass energy of muons. Now, if we put some muons into the system, they will not have the energy to decay since the resulting electron would need more energy than is available to it in the decay process. So essentially we have a box designed to keep muons from decaying. Now, inject some deuterons and the muons may catalyze a fusion reaction! And all without needing a constant supply of muons because of decay. Does anyone see why this shouldn't work in principle? So... Does anyone know how to make a box able to hold a bunch of 100MeV electrons? Regards, JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 02:59:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11110; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:52:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:52:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Jupiter's Great Red Spot , The Mother of All Vortexes! Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 03:48:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2723$47f63ba0$b393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BD26E8.9B9763A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"00q6j3.0.Wj2.ZJonq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BD26E8.9B9763A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should be Buckets of Hydrinos in here. Note anomalous energy generation. Regards, Frederick http://www.windows.umich.edu/jupiter/atmosphere/clouds/J_GRS.html ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BD26E8.9B9763A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Jupiter's Great Red Spot.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Jupiter's Great Red Spot.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.windows.umich.edu/jupiter/atmosphere/clouds/J_GRS.html Modified=402DF6B62227BD0120 ------=_NextPart_000_00E3_01BD26E8.9B9763A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 04:27:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22392; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:23:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:23:40 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1326662208==_============" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:11:20 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: [IMAGE] DELTAVT.GIF Resent-Message-ID: <"Rmt0h1.0.MT5.7fpnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1326662208==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" File DELTAVT.GIF, showing voltage change rate and temperature change rate on a slowly draining 4700uF capacitor. Rate is taken as the difference between the present and adjacent previous values at each sampling, versus the time interval since that previous reading. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI --============_-1326662208==_============ Content-Type: image/gif; name="DELTAVT.GIF" ; x-mac-type="47494666" ; x-mac-creator="474B4F4E" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DELTAVT.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlh3AEhAfEAAP///90AAAAA3QAAACwAAAAA3AEhAUAC/5yPqcvtD6OctNqLs968 +w+GIgSU5omm6sq27gvH8kzX9o3n+s73/g8MsgzCovGI/BFNy9OyWTzcGKnnIJrMal9X HnQLDotpVGeXeUaXmgizFPBFteFptMIsr9PX5zn/Hbc25tWn11dzCKM3tTjo+AgZKZnV OGkZU0mWecnZ6fk5tgnqKYpZOoqaqrracsr66OoSqBSXaMv0WhIQsLKb+2sZ65gIh1t8 3JUs6OTVM5srrLXLmzINfA2L3Rm98vzKnWRd7fsjjmI+Tq29zs7q7d7pS34yPY8Oc78z 387fH/m+o9GtZcRUgBMij9c+AAtV5GPYsMhDfxQrBgGo6qBEcv8cJ7KIGMajxZEkZWBM pTEkSFYrS7p8qaZbglEpYW5UZzMnyWd3pjD74yZoK51bBBg9YVTAjHo6WhJ9CsRbTS1T oSJViiMpVnwT8zm1ChZRVUhjKWpNGuaoEZH07rENW1HqFXAFjyEzVlcOXBNoOfVN9XYv 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Resent-Message-ID: <"IIavK1.0.1T5.6fpnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1326662392==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gnorts - Well I hope you don't mind too much if I hog up a little bandwidth with these image files I've posted, but I've found these experiments kind of interesting, and I hope some of you do too. If not, don't worry - I going into semi-lurk mode after this for a while, perhaps I'll get caught up on some work. Total combined size of the two Excel graphs and one JPEG illustration is only about 17k, but it comes in at a bit more because of BINHEX'ing for e-mail transfer. First of all, Horace was right! They *are* temperature driven curves, but not the way I thought. The file attached here is CURVS.GIF, and it shows a 4700uF capacitor slowly discharging for several hours throughout the day through 30 megohms and a constantly hooked up CRSJ* DMM across the resistors. The cap is in a metal cabinet in my home office, and a CRSJ thermometer is set up with the remote probe close by the capacitor. Samples are mostly about every 20 minutes to an hour apart. Doesn't look like voltage relates all that much to temperature, does it? Now look at the message titled "DELTAVT.GIF" to see the curves of the rate of change in voltage versus the rate of change in temperature. Ignore that thrashing at the start, that's just me taking samples too close together and aliasing the data. But look at how the two curves fit together. You can't miss it. That lower voltage curve with only a few slight distortions would fit right into the temperature curve. The thick little capacitor-can takes longer to soak up the thermal changes than the probe, so the voltage changes lag the thermal changes. Due to the reports by T. Townsend Brown that the characteristic curves are still apparent even when the capacitors are sealed inside a constant temperature chamber, I think it's probable that there are secondary electrical effects triggered by temperature that a capacitor can react to even under those conditions. Notice that the discharging curves turn positive at around 10am. To a glider pilot, that's known as "take-off time". It's when the thermals start popping. Even though the temperature rises all morning, things bust loose in late morning from pockets of air near the ground around buildings and trees and so forth, probably moving quite bit of charge around with it. Other temperature driven events may be expected from both the ground and the atmosphere. Plenty of sources for secondary effects, but clearly all driven by daily temperature. Then it gets really weird. It took me a few minutes to see it at first. It might have been subconscious, because I found myself thinking of the coastlines of eastern South America and western Africa as I noticed how the curves fit and the dim little light bulb first went on. Then it went on again a second time, and I tilted my head 90 degrees to the left to see something else. What I noticed is illustrated in the file CURVFIT.JPG. And I *swear* I'm not making this up! That's the real data, without any alterations or distortions whatsoever besides the 90 degree rotation of the graph. Don't ever let anyone tell you that curve fitting and correlations aren't shaky business. That blue voltage curve fits the other thing there just about as well if not better than it does the red temperature line, thereby proving definitively that the ancient Egyptians communicated electrostatically with civilizations in South America through giant capacitors cleverly disguised as their mutually enormous religious and funerary monuments. Ok kids, don't hang out on the I'net too long; someone in the "real world" loves you - even if it's only that darned cat! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI P.S. Frederick, could you forward parts or all of this to Horace? I don't have his e-mail address, and I wanted to confirm his comments on this stuff. Thanks! *(Cheap Radio Shack Junk) --============_-1326662392==_============ Content-Type: image/gif; name="CURVS.GIF" ; x-mac-type="47494666" ; x-mac-creator="474B4F4E" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CURVS.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhvwFgAfEAAP///90AAAAA3QAAACwAAAAAvwFgAUAC/5yPqcvtD6OctNqLs968 +w+GEUCW5omm6sq27gvH8kzX9o3n+s73/s8yAIfEovGITCqXzGZN6IxKp9Sq9YoFQn+D 08H0JXXF29Y4i06r18nzKgxIiEvwYpltxuv3/P7bj3LH43Y25uZF9yIgALgX8PioAhnQ WHl0CChYObZoqQSJBOo5GrOgUjiXmqhKpNmICbDISEozuSZKmxs36ppDuKoAtpqnIzvL JhtZY3ys67wE29frFx1lzCNLolyU/eztU41IJ4hqNH1zWFc3Hi78jbLd1PlOP9OOd853 P4pb1V0PMMU+cKyeDMRHL56afwHrHSwXaFircAxe/EoFUdW+g/98FPaZ19Abxx4jBZZM cxJNv1EgQ9JK6UsOjXwI1sCs4tFZS5ebmpgyGCSOTHvpthTKV7AjJZc7eeqzeEoj0pi5 bjbJGbKpU5tShKSk6QvYn6QCHWHdqnVrFqs2LhIN8nOtmpVqVTCsWyVuVHfidr0ZKmMq witn8a5IazgKW4NdBINZXIpMzWEUg/WYRDexZpE+9ZaCPOUk5s2kDT/U2Bf0KdV/CWla N9ZE5tK0SbOGdtsngNm1e9vmlZtJcN/Eq1p0DQu2luGUUfPdWDx6b+bmqCOxLj37HuxD 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Resent-Message-ID: <"p6zYo1.0.gT5.9fpnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: --============_-1326662186==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" JPEG image CURVFIT.JPG. Shows what curve fitting can do to a person's head. It's not pretty, but then neither is alt.binaries.pictures.tastless and you looked at that, didn't you? ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI --============_-1326662186==_============ Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="CURVFIT.JPG" ; x-mac-type="4A504547" ; x-mac-creator="474B4F4E" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CURVFIT.JPG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wBDABALDA4MChAODQ4SERATGCgaGBYWGDEjJR0o OjM9PDkzODdASFxOQERXRTc4UG1RV19iZ2hnPk1xeXBkeFxlZ2P/2wBDARESEhgVGC8a Gi9jQjhCY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2NjY2Nj Y2NjY2P/wgARCADxAMwDASIAAhEBAxEB/8QAGgAAAwEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQG Bf/EABgBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAwEE/9oADAMBAAIQAxAAAAHv3w2w2M3pphZZ cgDgAByo6zCzQ4+ksAE0oHM2ufr5O5o1lOd5dMarRPTzWCbMmTQSKEiiQoihkUNZ6Oy6 JtYb5Rca5xWKvDWs93hv2LTlspbKikOaBJsi0zPWUZ9EXOgBzqy1xmhpzWeXSb+HE3ot OWpUWAAACc0AAJrnWBOgALLXGaYnNTpx67eLTLVxvqwvgJdmiOWudp8/r60acdAgHxud e05+jgAFjtjNjTntc+pr5Rp5+rZNXmCrpOXWaz2O8mufVywOdzpTytBneSrCObsx5M0n 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(8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27632; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:49:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 04:49:06 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: incandescent W vs gases, Run 8 plans Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 05:44:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2733$876069e0$b393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pYxje.0.gl6.11qnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: >"The water vapor coming into contact with the filament >is decomposed,the oxygen combining with the tungsten >and the hydrogen being evolved. The oxide distills to >the bulb,where it is subsequently reduced to metallic >tungsten by atomic hydrogen given off by the filament, >water vapor being simultaneously produced." >I just couldn't see the oxide "coming apart" all by >itself on the colder wall of the chamber. > Not "by itself", Scott, By interaction of the copious quantity of photons given off by the hot tungsten filament. The H-H bond energy is 436 Kilojoules/mole or 4.526 ev per bond. TWO PHOTONS of 1/2 that energy or more about 5,478 angstroms can do the same thing as the filament on the "colder wall" of the chamber creating the H free radicals which can then react with the WOx forming water. The science of photochemistry-photolysis is well developed and without these types of photochemical reactions (aided by Chlorophyll catalysis) Photosynthesis would be impossible. The same type of reaction can occur in Hydrino formation and if followed by; M+ + H = M + H+ and LL- capture which forms the hydrino with up to 0.255 Mev energy release. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 06:30:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19338; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:26:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:26:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980122142351.00917348 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:23:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Resent-Message-ID: <"rwcx52.0.4k4.VSrnq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:52 AM 1/22/98 GMT, Robin Van Spaandonk wrote: snip Query: Can hydrogen atoms be generated by an electric spark such as given off in a spark plug in an atmosphere of hydrogen? Ed Strojny >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 07:11:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26596; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:06:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:06:03 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980122150743.00697818 bahnhof.se> X-Sender: grappo bahnhof.se (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:07:43 +0100 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: gudmund rapp Subject: Re: off topic win 95 Resent-Message-ID: <"d3G9g.0.7V6.I1snq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A word of warning! I installed MS Explorer 4 on my computor at home and all went well. But when I tried to do the same on an other it would not work. I uninstalled. Then tried to install Netscape 3 Navigator Gold. It was impossible to start the program and some silly remarks came from Windows 95 like the computor has some connected equipment that does not function. The same happened when I tried to install Eudora 3.0. Then I tried to install MS Explorer 3 and believe it or not it worked!!!?? I got some advise from someone who knows this stuff better than I: if you install MS Explorer 4 and it does not work, do not uninstall it because it has made changes in the original Win95 installation. Gudmund At 20.45 1998-01-21 EST, you wrote: >If your are thinking of upgrading to win 95 I've just done it and it took 5 >hrs. I had to. > >Add more memory > >Run Scandisk/all and delete *.chk files > >remove the anti virus that came with the computer from the bios > >remove the IBM anti virus that I installed by editing the autoexec.bat to >remove imav > >Run memaker to remove "scan upper area aggressively" > >close file manager > >five hrs later its up and running and my modem speed is still 38.8 not 56 > >Frank Znidarsic > > Gudmund Rapp Phone: +4687178913; +46706820641 Vinterbrinksvagen 7 Email: grappo bahnhof.se 133 32 Saltsjobaden Sweden Web "Self-knowledge": http://www.bahnhof.se/~grappo/index.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 08:45:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05590; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:43:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:43:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980122101449.00a85098 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:14:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: atomic H vs oxides In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980120174820.00a81d3c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IgIOU.0.tM1.gStnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:37 1/21/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >I want to add that stainless steel >walls (and most other metals) have an oxide film. This film does not go >away by baking. Because atomic hydrogen is very reactive (H2 --> 2 H - >about 100 kcal/mole), the atomic H reduces some of this oxide, thereby >starting the water cycle. Good thinking, Michael. That must surely be happening in our chamber at least to some degree. Your description of the little cold trap is exactly as I had imagined it. I'm probably going to try limiting the filament temp to 2000K first...just to see how long it lasts then. Fred S wrote about the water cycle: >Not "by itself", Scott, By interaction of the copious >quantity of photons given off by the hot tungsten filament. >The H-H bond energy is 436 Kilojoules/mole or 4.526 ev per >bond. TWO PHOTONS of 1/2 that energy or more about 5,478 >angstroms can do the same thing as the filament on the >"colder wall" of the chamber creating the H free radicals >which can then react with the WOx forming water. Thanks for politely saying everything at least twice to me, Fred! I'm slowly absorbing it all... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 09:54:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04949; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:51:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:51:35 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:53:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Vwhno2.0._C1.aSunq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Steve Ekwall wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Patrick V. Reavis wrote: > > FZNIDARSIC wrote: > sigh, slowly being dragged along ... doesn't anyone remember the SPEED > and > little space a well tightly written program code uses? I'll race anyone using winDoze 3.1 OR 95 from dead cold off to finding a file ,and being setup to edit via Xtree, or begin running any application for that matter. . XtreePro occupies about 170k in my hd . Windows :about 13 meg . FirstAid for Windows - about 10 meg. My autoexec.bat file still boots into Dos 6 . XT [enter] brings up xtree in about 3 seconds consumed by looking at 51 meg worth of occupied hd space and displaying it . I use windows to run Arcade for entertainment value for myself and my guests, and that's about it. Oh , yeah , Paintbrush , I got the old Zsoft version which works better , and runs under Dos. I dunno , I think running windows as just another application under DOS works fine . WHAT is the big deal that everyone thinks they HAVE to upgrade to Win 95 - I don't get it. Where are our > programmers? I can do some spiffy tricks with GWBASIC ! :-) Jim O. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 10:48:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26253; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:43:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:43:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:43:38 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980122150743.00697818 bahnhof.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2zAaQ3.0.5Q6.VDvnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, gudmund rapp wrote: > A word of warning! > > I got some advise from someone who knows this stuff better than I: if you > install MS Explorer 4 and it does not work, do not uninstall it because it > has made changes in the original Win95 installation. What do you expect from Microsoft? It serves you right for putting on Explorer in the first place. Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 11:02:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00814; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:00:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:00:40 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <223f2ccb.34c7963b aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:55:53 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"AI9MP.0.SC.GTvnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-22 09:29:26 EST, you write: > Query: > > Can hydrogen atoms be generated by an electric spark such as given off in a > spark plug in an atmosphere of hydrogen? > > Ed Strojny > Ed, I mentioned this a few days ago in message: >Subj: BLP Replication experiments >Date: 98-01-17 01:22:56 EST >From: VCockeram aol.com (VCockeram) >Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com >To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com >All, >Just thinking out loud here: The idea is to get atomic hydrogen (H), >to react with K+ and K++ ions, right? Will passing H2 gas through >an electric arc bust up H2? A DC arc? AC? Frequency,maybe >some harmonic resonant to H2? Now where do we get the K ions? >Hmm...arc electrode(s) made up of K? An alloy? Hollow >electrodes fed with H2? Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 12:28:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01413; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:25:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:25:41 -0800 Message-ID: <34C7AB29.4C9C darknet.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:25:13 -0500 From: Steve Reply-To: darklord darknet.net Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz Subject: interesting patent that might be useful.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"A5Gkb1.0.nL.2jwnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, Yesterday I was asked about a patent I knew of that was for a room temperature superconductor.. I looked it up, and decided to post the address here in case anyone would have a use for room temp SCs for experiments.. http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4325795 ttyl -Steve King -- darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 13:20:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18331; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:11:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:11:01 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980122205913.00906d20 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:59:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Resent-Message-ID: <"8DJIf2.0.xT4.ZNxnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:55 PM 1/22/98 EST, Vince wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-22 09:29:26 EST, you write: > >> Query: >> >> Can hydrogen atoms be generated by an electric spark such as given off in a >> spark plug in an atmosphere of hydrogen? >> >> Ed Strojny >> >Ed, >I mentioned this a few days ago in message: > > >Vince >Las Vegas > Thank you Vince. I now recall that message. When spring comes I'll try some experiments using an arc. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 13:25:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19478; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:00 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Plasma AND Sterilizer in 76-98 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:09:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd277a$15d4c180$b393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0180_01BD273F.7ECE15A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"p2G8A1.0.5m4.KQxnq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0180_01BD273F.7ECE15A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested in how a mix of 2% H2 and O2 is used in modern high-tech sterilization. The plasma contains the free radicals H and OH etc., That chew up bacteria and viruses. Regards, Frederick http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/bool_srch4?INDEX+0 ------=_NextPart_000_0180_01BD273F.7ECE15A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" Plasma AND Sterilizer in 76-98.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" Plasma AND Sterilizer in 76-98.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://patents.uspto.gov/cgi-bin/bool_srch4?INDEX+0 Modified=60AEF36B7927BD01CA ------=_NextPart_000_0180_01BD273F.7ECE15A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 14:18:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09171; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:11:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:11:12 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C4DEC1.139D41C0 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:28:33 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex References: <19980120165709.AAA4045 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LPSO32.0.xE2.yFynq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Clinton Rawls wrote: > I have been a Vort for several weeks now and I have watching for messages > that refer specifically to the vortex phenomenon but I have not seen a > single one out of many hundreds of messages. While I am very interested in > and can appreciate all the messages on other new energy sources such as BLP > and other non-vortex related energy sources, I am most interested in new > energy from the secrets of the vortex. The shear number of messages on > these other energy sources warrants the creation of new e-mail lists such > as BLP-L or ZPE-L or Water-L. Is there anyone out there aware of or are > working on technology that taps into the power of the vortex? If so, > please validate the name of this e-mail list and share with the rest of us > what your latest developments or findings are. Thanks to everyone! Clinton- Welcome aboard! Content is the responsibility of all members. If there is something specific you are looking for please speak up. Discussions tend to migrate towards activities going on at the moment. If you have an experiment or an idea for an experiment please share! -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 14:46:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22058; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:42:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:42:14 -0800 Message-Id: <199801222241.RAA00242 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:33:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"IkLtv2.0.XO5.4jynq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 20 Jan 98 at 11:28, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Clinton Rawls wrote: > > > I have been a Vort for several weeks now and I have watching for messages > > that refer specifically to the vortex phenomenon but I have not seen a > > single one out of many hundreds of messages. While I am very interested in > > and can appreciate all the messages on other new energy sources such as BLP > > and other non-vortex related energy sources, I am most interested in new > > energy from the secrets of the vortex. Hi Clinton, The home page of Vortex Technology Center at Univ. Houston http://www.ifdt.uh.edu/vtc/home.html has some info. No "secrets" and no "new energy" AFAIK, but not a bad place to start. They deal with vortex behavior in fluids. A lot more interesting vortex effects occur in electromagnetic fields and plasmas. Bob F. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 17:09:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07397; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:04:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:04:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34C7EC9F.8549A7FE ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:04:32 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 References: <1.5.4.32.19980122150743.00697818 bahnhof.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h4w4J2.0.Up1.Bo-nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can't uninstall IE4 as they released a pre-release that did not uninstall! I can't even install newer versions! Every time I turn on the computer I get a message that it has expired and can't do anything about it! I believe that there must be lots of people having problems with IE4 and bill gates, How about a "I hate bill gates and IE4" mail list. John Berry gudmund rapp wrote: > A word of warning! > I installed MS Explorer 4 on my computor at home and all went well. But when > I tried to do the same on an other it would not work. I uninstalled. Then > tried to install Netscape 3 Navigator Gold. It was impossible to start the > program and some silly remarks came from Windows 95 like the computor has > some connected equipment that does not function. The same happened when I > tried to install Eudora 3.0. > > Then I tried to install MS Explorer 3 and believe it or not it worked!!!?? > > I got some advise from someone who knows this stuff better than I: if you > install MS Explorer 4 and it does not work, do not uninstall it because it > has made changes in the original Win95 installation. > Gudmund From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 17:16:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12013; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:08:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:08:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:07:06 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 In-Reply-To: <34C7EC9F.8549A7FE ihug.co.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-WUq83.0.Zx2.8s-nq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, John Berry wrote: > > I believe that there must be lots of people having problems with IE4 and bill > gates, How about a "I hate bill gates and IE4" mail list. > > Now that Netscape is free there is no need to let MS screw with your system. Cheers martin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 18:26:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA31570; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:19:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:19:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980122220048.00aaa910 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:00:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Capacitor curves - mystery solved?! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Czo6r1.0.Bj7.vu_nq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 PM 1/21/98 -1000, you wrote: >Gnorts - > >First of all, Horace was right! They *are* temperature driven curves, but >not the way I thought. The file attached here is CURVS.GIF, and it shows a >4700uF capacitor slowly discharging for several hours throughout the day >through 30 megohms and a constantly hooked up CRSJ* DMM across the >resistors. The cap is in a metal cabinet in my home office, and a CRSJ >thermometer is set up with the remote probe close by the capacitor. Samples >are mostly about every 20 minutes to an hour apart. Doesn't look like >voltage relates all that much to temperature, does it? > Well. You are now at the foothills of the mountain. There it is, quite a large one. The first step is clear. Getting to the top 'snot so easy.. KPN Remove the effects of temperature. What remains? Now remove the next artifact... Either this process stops at an unknown or you just get to a point where you null to zero ( at least by the measure of the instrument ). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 18:36:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28105; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:32:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:32:02 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34C7EC9F.8549A7FE ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:30:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: off topic win 95 Resent-Message-ID: <"NIX663.0.2t6.W40oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been ignoring this thread (mostly), so somebody might have already mentioned this. Anybody who is dissatisfied with Windows or DOS should consider running Linux (Redhat 4.2 recommended, http://www.redhat.com). Simplest thing is to add another disk (otherwise, you'll have to partition your hard drive and reinstall Windows), install Linux and setup a dual boot system; you boot DOS or Linux, and when running Linux, you'll be able to mount your DOS drive as a file system. The installation is highly automated. The new modular kernel does a good job of recognizing various hardware. You may not need to build a custom kernel, unless you have very special requirements. The performance of older systems (you need a 386 or better) will improve; high-end Pentium machines will act like expensive Unix workstations. And there is a surprising amount of good software available (see the Scientific Applications on Linux page at http://sal.kachinatech.com/). A lot of it is free, from schools, universities and instititutions. For example, Vis5D, from the Space Science and Engineering Center of the University of Wisconsin (see http://sal.kachinatech.com/D/1/VIS5D.html), is "a system for interactive visualization of large 5-D gridded data sets such as those made by numeric weather models. One can make isosurfaces, contour line slices, etc., of data in a 3-D grid, then rotate and animate the image in real time." (I've downloaded this; it's big but the demo is worth it.) Combine that with Emu/fdtd, a "3D Maxwell Solver" from Brunel University, UK, (http://sal.kachinatech.com/Z/4/EMUFTDT.html), "which is ideal for investigating electric and magnetic fields," and you've got a great mechanism for studying EM... (The demo stuff includes a rather scary picture of EM from a cell phone propagating thru a human brain.) r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 18:40:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03137; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:36:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:36:35 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980122220048.00aaa910 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:36:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: Capacitor curves - mystery solved?! Resent-Message-ID: <"fzzga2.0.wm.n80oq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: you've shown a correlation, but does that imply that temperature is the cause? couldn't it be an effect of the capacitors charging inside the box? you'd also need to monitor the ambient temperature outside the box, to show a real correlation... or perhaps a run (monitoring temp only) with the caps shorted? r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 18:59:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02313; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:55:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:55:10 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills in error? Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:53:45 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ca0389.273460444 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700 mail.eden.com> <2d20197d.34c548af@aol.com> <3.0.5.32.19980120234941.00856700@mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980121231955.00849570@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980121231955.00849570 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RAnH-.0.xZ.AQ0oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:19:55 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >Do you think hydrinos would leave faster than normal hydrogen? The >atmosphere is approximately 0.5 ppm by volume hydrogen. [snip] Dihydrinos (hydrino molecules) weigh the same as hydrogen of course (well almost), however hydrinos (atoms) only weigh half as much. However don't forget that at least part of the hydrogen normally found in the atmosphere is produced there due to the interaction of sunlight with water and hydrocarbons also in the atmosphere. So it's difficult to say what part of normal hydrogen is in the atmosphere because it "just hangs around", and what part was just freshly generated from other substances. Because the hydrinos etc. are unreactive, generation from other substances is much less likely (not much K+ floating around in the atmosphere, and even less H). (Note: I would expect some K+ above the oceans due to salt spray, but very little H; the chances of a three body collision between two K+ ions and an H under those conditions are truly minuscule). Add to this the fact that even if hydrinos were produced under these circumstances, no one would find them, as no one is looking. After all, who believes in hydrinos anyway? ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 21:14:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22911; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:09:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:09:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C81845.58E4 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:10:45 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Don Baker on list Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"OIoSt3.0.ub5.5O2oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust104.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.104]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21038; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:54:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C7EAEC.AC6 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:57:16 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, mconnolly@grainsystems.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall@ix.netcom.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Don Baker on list References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan. 22, 1998 Hi Don, I am very glad to add you to my private list, and will duely forward a long string of critical posts. I hope we can also talk on the phone or get together. What is your research now and past at LANL? I heard from CETI executives in November that LANL failed to prove any positives with a CG throrium transmutation cell-- have you heard anything? If you ever want to tell me anything in confidentiality, I have disciplined myself to maintain absolute confidentiality when asked, and so have developed some illuminating dialogues with some of the CF players. As an undereducated, inexperienced, unqualified, and naive generalist, I have been examining CF carefully, report by report, searching out internal lacks and inconsistencies, and attracting both opprobrium, respect, and helpful feadback from others. I want the miracle of CF to be real, but am perfectly willing to discover that it is so far a tissue of errors. I feel I have contributed to a willingness in the CF network to engage in objective criticism, without polarizing or posturing. The outstanding issue for me is that I know of no currently successful experiment that is being independently replicated. How do you evaluate Claytor's experiment? This list I am starting to use as a private list for posts in the arena of objective CF criticism, CG, CETI, Arata, any interesting excess energy and transmutation evidence, escecially attempts at replication. I will delete any names upon request. So, I'll focus on this list, instead of posting frequently to Vortex-L. I'm abandoning sci.physics.fusion, as there is a very low rate of discussion of experiments. Anyone can use this list-- in Netscape Navigator, just call up the previous post, hit Reply to All under Message, and put in the subject and post you want. Remove Vortex-L eskimo.com, if you don't want to post there. As one, Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 rmforall earthlink.net 505-986-9103 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 21:18:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09557; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:14:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:14:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:57:31 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] In defense (?!) of Win95 Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801230000_MC2-305E-6113 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"p3lJ51.0.9L2.HT2oq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I do not embrace novelty for its own sake. I have rotary phone service, a manual transmission in my car, and for e-mail I use the 1991 version of Procomm, because it is fast. I am not burdened by gadgets. I have no camera, and the VCR has been broken for months. I think Microsoft is and always has been a stodgy, uncreative, me-too company. Having said that, I think the criticism of Microsoft and Win 95 are one sided. Stodgy companies like IBM and Microsoft do well for a good reason. Customers are not fools. During the marathon IBM anti-trust trial, it was revealed again and again that customers seldom bothered to look at competing products. In 1965 nobody forced people to buy Big Blue. Given the limitations of the technology at that time, and the need for quick, expert support, IBM was the smartest choice for most people. When the minis and micros came out, and IBM's competitive advantages declined, customers left in droves. The same thing will happen to Microsoft someday, when the technology shifts and they fall behind. There is an lot to be said for Win95 and MS Explorer. I'd like to say a little of it: Win 95 is *far* more stable and reliable than Win 3.1. The long filenames alone are worth the price of admission. People who have thousand of files to look after must have this feature. Of course you could have had them years ago on the Mac, but you could not have had the specialized software I need. The improvements over DOS and Win 3.1 are real, substantial, and -- to people who need the features for specific purposes -- vitally important. I, for example, am able to do things I could never have dreamed of with any previous OS. I run a full featured version of the Japanese premier word processor Ichitaro 6.1, a Japanese - English dictionary, Word Perfect, Encyclopedia Britannica, and various DOS programs like Procomm and GREP. Of course, it crashes several times a week, but I know how to avoid losing data. Computers used to crash several times a day. Macs reportedly crash too. Unreliability and extreme complexity are the price we pay for backwards compatibility. Most of us are willing to pay it. MS Explorer 4 is reportedly a bear. I'll give them a few years to wring out the bugs. But for MS Explorer 3.02 you can download Japanese language extensions for free, which allow you to read the Japanese web pages. You can download dozens of other language extensions, including various obscure dialects. Again, that's a marvelous feature for those of us who need it, even though it makes no difference to the 99.999% of the users. I doubt it is available for the Mac or for programs with a smaller market share. A well run company like Microsoft knows how take advantage of a large customer base by creating advantages for small groups of users. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 21:46:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14725; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:41:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:41:08 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: Jed Rothwell Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:35:18 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199801230000_MC2-305E-6113 compuserve.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] In defense (?!) of Win95 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"h7pqk2.0._b3.pr2oq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 22-Jan-98, Jed Rothwell wrote: ___Snip___A lot of praise for MS and Win95 Obviously Jed has never used a really good operating system. ___Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 22 22:06:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00655; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:56:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:56:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C822AB.5B9B earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:55:07 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rmforall@earthlink.net, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, mconnolly@grainsystems.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall@ix.netcom.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Four new members of The Order of the Tortoise References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zFwc02.0.2A.L43oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 22, 1998 Dear all, Four new members of the Order of the Tortoise [experts who want to believe in cold fusion, ect., but are not yet convinced by the evidence available so far.]: [http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/tortoise/members.html] 15.Dr. John R. McBride , Chemistry Department, Hofstra University, Hempstead, NY. (chmjrm vaxc.hofstra.edu) 16.Mike C. Simmons BSME, University of Texas, Austin, 1998; Graduate student in Materials Science, University of Houston, beginning fall 1998. Coop work in Robotics at NASA. 17.< HREF = "http://www.adsul.com/gulfspecimen/books.htm"> Jack Rudloe, naturalist, marine science author and researcher; author of the book Search for the Great Turtle Mother, listed as among the best of science and technology books in 1995 by the Library Journal. 18.Dr. Paul Finlayson, Phd, Mechanical Engineering, University of Utah, Salt Lake City. Staff Scientist, Deskin Research Group, Santa Clara, CA. (finlay slkc.uswest.net) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 00:09:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13426; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:06:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:06:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:41:51 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <34c83bbb.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "'Dieter Britz'" Subject: Rich Murray: Jones critique, please. Resent-Message-ID: <"pjQfz1.0.iH3.kz4oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Rich, dear Vortexians, The latest addition to Dieter Britz's bibliography is: Shelton D S, Hansen L D, Thorne J M, Jones S E "An assessment of claims of 'excess heat' in CF calorimetry" Thermochimica Acta 297, 1997, 7 It should be useful if you (Rich, but other colleagues too) would analyze thoroughly and objectively this paper, which claims to demonstrate that the F & P calorimetry is wrong, and write a Critique no x. The same treatment has to applied for all publications, isn't it? Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 02:20:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21708; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:15:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:15:47 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19980122220048.00aaa910 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:15:55 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Capacitor curves - mystery solved?! Resent-Message-ID: <"HRmKf.0.yI5.Ht6oq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ralph - > [...] you'd also need to monitor the ambient > temperature outside the box, to show a > real correlation... That pretty much was the ambient temperature. The cap was in a big cabinet with the sliding metal door open about a half an inch for the wires to come out to the DMM and thermometer on top of the cabinet. The voltage correlated very well to both *changes* in temperature as well as the east coast of South America. But seriously, there's no doubt in my mind that temperature changes are the overwhelming cause of the variable charge or drain rate seen in the capacitors. If there are other effects, and I believe there probably are, they're well masked behind the temperature driven changes, perhaps even if the caps are held at constant temperature. IOW, those curves in the TTB constant temperature data are probably temperature driven electrical effects. I can't even imagine how to filter that signal out if it's from secondary electrical effects. You could try to do it electronically or numerically, but how would you know exactly how much weighting to use? Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, at least for the very long wave events. Hodowanec and similar detectors for much faster events would still work fine, since the temperature driven effects would just be a very slow offset drift. I think. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 03:38:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25129; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:02:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:02:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Potassium-Boron-Hydrogen Salt High Pressure Discharge Tube Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:57:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd27ed$a3116300$b393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ThwnA1.0.Z86._Y7oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince C., If you have your 860 volt, 1.5 amp transformer set up, you might put a mixture of Boric Acid H3BO3 and KOH in the high pressure (~1600 psi)capillary tube (Quartz or Ceramic). The 240-480 volt 60 Hz line might do if you use a ballast. H3BO3 + KOH ----> KBO3 + H2O + H2 in the discharge. 0.062gr 0.056gr The boric acid discharge gives a very bright greenish-white glow.With Boron capable of nuclear reactions,perhaps: Hydrino + B11 ----> 3 He4 + 18 Mev, or Hydrino + B10 ---> He4 + Li7 + 2.78 Mev, it might get interesting. Nickel or SS leads protruding into the 5/16 inch diameter 3/32 inch (or less) bore, 2 inch long, Quartz or Ceramic capillary tube, suitably sealed should do it. A VERITABLE BOMB,SAFETY FIRST! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 03:45:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28418; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:43:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:43:07 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34C8720B.53EAB0B2 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:33:47 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 References: <34C7EC9F.8549A7FE ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Meg9q2.0.yx6.898oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ralph muha wrote: I've been ignoring this thread (mostly), so somebody might have already mentioned this. Anybody who is dissatisfied with Windows or DOS should consider running Linux (Redhat 4.2 recommended, http://www.redhat.com). Jack Smith writes: Get System Commander from V Communications. http://www.v-com.com This allows you your choice of boots. I can come up in Linux (which I usually do) or Dos 6.22 (win31 or the OS-9 emulator), Win95, or WinNT. So your access to applications is almost unlimited. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 04:09:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA01062; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:05:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:05:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Distillation Calorimeter? Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:00:23 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd27f6$7c7c4940$b393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TWf7G.0.WG.aU8oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Seems that one could use various liquids-liquid metals circulating through a flash chamber and measure the amount of material distilled over into a condensing chamber and measure the weight or volume of transported material in a given time as a fairly accurate calorimeter? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 04:14:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA01591; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:11:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 04:11:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:09:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801231209.GAA22357 dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Cold Fusion in a new textbook To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"rSUVS.0.iO.kZ8oq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: January 23, 1998 Vortex, Just recently I purchased a new book by Adamson and Gast on "Physical Chemistry of Surfaces", Sixth Edition, 1997, John Wiley & Sons. At the last part of their book, there is mention of cold fusion as the ultimate catalysis. Chapter 18, Mechanisms of Catalyzed Reaction, section 9, Mechanisms of a Few Catalyzed Reactions, page 729. They feel it is possible theoritcally in principle but currently still scientifically marginal yet. Their reference list gives reference to P&F (proclaimed), explained (C. Walling & J. Simmons), denied (R. Dagani), but re-proclaimed (E. Mallove). I feel looking over their references gives a small insight to how much the authors have read or have a background on before they wrote their own text. Reading Adamson & Gast's refernces to cold fusion, I find that they have not really gone in too deeply into cf despite their saying it was the ultimate catalysis. Adamson is at USC. Gast is at Stanford. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 05:35:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12069; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:31:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:31:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123082833.006d3504 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:28:33 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"u9N7p2.0.Vy2.Tk9oq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:29 PM 1/21/98 EST, Lawrence E. Wharton wrote: >In a message dated 98-01-21 16:50:17 EST, you write: > >> We have a very cranky and angry person here by the name of Jed Rothwell >> who insists that any energy produced by this cell is due to nuclear fusion >> even though the expected products, such as neutrons, have never been >> observed. >> >> Lawrence E. Wharton This is scientifically inaccurate as regards neutrons as being a sine qua non. The channel to neutrons is located far above (at room temperature) the energy level of the first excited nuclear state of helium. Therefore, neutrons are NOT expected. Mitchell Swartz < From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 06:19:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16640; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:15:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:15:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:08:54 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Long term ..: Capacitor curves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EIlyR2.0.v34.9OAoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See notes in text, some cuts; On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Ralph - > > > [...] you'd also need to monitor the ambient > > temperature outside the box, to show a > > real correlation... > > But seriously, there's no doubt in my mind that temperature changes are the > overwhelming cause of the variable charge or drain rate seen in the > capacitors. If there are other effects, and I believe there probably are, > they're well masked behind the temperature driven changes, perhaps even if > the caps are held at constant temperature. IOW, those curves in the TTB > constant temperature data are probably temperature driven electrical > effects. I can't even imagine how to filter that signal out if it's from > secondary electrical effects. ---- You could try to do it electronically or > numerically, but how would you know exactly how much weighting to use? > Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, at least for the very long wave events. > Hodowanec and similar detectors for much faster events would still work > fine, since the temperature driven effects would just be a very slow offset > drift. I think. > ----------------- I think the first step, or one first step is to see if the measurement is COMING from the instrument.... The front end of your meter may be: op amp transistor switched capacitor Any of the can and do contribute their own currents, bias, charge injection from switching or other... --------------------- > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 06:18:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21437; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:14:23 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C8A561.40A8EA1C ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:12:49 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] In defense (?!) of Win95 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"frPH42.0.mE5.zMAoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: R. Wormus wrote: > On 22-Jan-98, Jed Rothwell wrote: > ___Snip___A lot of praise for MS and Win95 > > Obviously Jed has never used a really good operating system. This is an old inflammatory argument based mostly on opinion. An OS is only as good as the software you want to run on it. Each has it's own specialty. To say one is better than another and not take into consideration what the user is trying to do or what the user is comfortable with is silly. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 06:21:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22224; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:16:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:16:39 -0800 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:54:42 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] In defense (?!) of Win95 Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801230858_MC2-3069-42B8 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"sYS_s3.0.8R5.5PAoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Ron writes: "Obviously Jed has never used a really good operating system." Actually, since 1965 Jed has used operating systems ranging from good to bad to outlandish. But this is a misunderstanding. I define "really good" on a purely functional basis. If it does what I need, it's good. I don't care how badly the software is written or how slow it goes, I need it to run a Japanese and an English word processor at the same time, and I need to be able to look up the melting point of aluminum (660 deg C) quickly without losing my train of thought. Linux may be the most elegant, compact, speedy, reliable code ever written, but if there is no state of the art Japanese word processor available for it, and no Encyclopedia Britannica, I cannot use it. People who make and sell products for a living must try to understand the customer's point of view. The customer thinks: Product does what I need = Good. Doesn't do it = Bad. The engineering details under the hood make no difference. Good internal design is irrelevant. Speed does matter unless the applications are so slow they interfere with productivity. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 08:09:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04594; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:59:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:59:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C8B094.6977 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:00:36 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rmforall@earthlink.net, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn ctc.org, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, mconnolly@grainsystems.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Shelton, Hansen, Thorne, Jones CF critique: Murray summary References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9088y.0.h71.yvBoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan 23, 1998 [Murray: I lost some of the critical responses to my summary on Dec. 20, 1997 of this important paper on CF calorimetry, so if the writers resend them to me, I will repost them.] Subject: Rich Murray: Jones critique, please. Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:06:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:41:51 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: "vortex" CC: "'Dieter Britz'" Dear Rich, dear Vortexians, The latest addition to Dieter Britz's bibliography is: Shelton D S, Hansen L D, Thorne J M, Jones S E "An assessment of claims of 'excess heat' in CF calorimetry" Thermochimica Acta 297, 1997, 7 It should be useful if you (Rich, but other colleagues too) would analyze thoroughly and objectively this paper, which claims to demonstrate that the F & P calorimetry is wrong, and write a Critique no x. The same treatment has to applied for all publications, isn't it? Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro [Post by Murray] Dec. 5, 1997 Dear all, As in any field of science, cold fusion research can make no progress without competent, compassionate critical work that is both produced and received in an atmosphere of at least grudging mutual respect in a community of mutually acknowledged peers-- actually a very deep expression of democratic process. Democratic process has swept the planet in this century, proving by its success its practical and moral superiority. Our race has achieved its greatest pleasure and most multifaceted creative evolution via democratic process. Vital ingredients are a free press, vigorous and open debate, active willingness to hear opposing points of view, the commitment to pragmatic compromise, prohibition of censorship, and near prohibition of demonization, the immature and dangerous tactic of casting out opponents as evil, incompetent, and worthless. To those of you who need to hear this, I command thee, by the authority of the one, to listen intently and deeply, not only to these words and the following excellent critical offering, but to the quieter comprehension within. "An assessment of claims of 'excess heat' in "cold fusion' calorimetry," D.S. Shelton, L.D. Hansen, J.M. Thorne, S.E. Jones, Dept. of Chemistry and Physics, Brigham Young University, Provo. UT 84602, received Feb. 4, 1997, accepted April 4, 1997, Thermochimica Acta 297 (Aug., 1997), 7-15. Write Lee D. Hanson, [Lee_Hanson byu.edu], 801-378-2040. Steven E. Jones [sejones physics1.byu.edu] "Abstract: Claims of 'excess heat' from measurements of the heat of electrolysis at several watts of power are largely based on use of poorly characterized, isoperibol, heat-conduction calorimeters with single-point temperature sensors. This paper describes construction, testing, and calibration of a calorimeter of similar design. Heat-conduction calorimeters with single-point temperature sensing and inadequate mixing are subject to large systematic errors resulting from non-uniform heat distribution within the system. Confirmation of electric-heater calibration by a chemical reaction with a well-known enthalpy change is a minimum requirement to insure accuracy. Improper or incomplete calibration is a probable cause for many claims of 'excess heat' in 'cold fusion' experiments. copyright 1997 Elsevier Science B.V." "Continuing claims of excess heat and the untested and poorly characterized calorimeter designs used to generate these claims became the reason for us to reluctantly enter this arena in a effort to determine the validity of observations of 'excess heat'...For work at higher power, EPRI provided a small grant to construct a calorimeter which would fit in our neutron detectors and could accurately measure heat rates up to several watts. Because of its potential utility in other applications, development of this calorimeter has continued even though EPRI withheld further support after being informed of the results of the work done at low power. [For shame! This shows that not just cold fusion supporters experience funding cut-off.] Obtaining accurate heat rates from the high power calorimeter proved to be a challenge because of the subtle, but large systematic erors associated with mixing and single-point temperature sensing in the calorimeter." E. Calvet, fifty years ago, described the principles of good calorimetry: The thermal conductivity of all heat paths from the cell and environment must be constant, and both paths and conductivity must be the same during experiment as during calibration. The measured delta T must be the actual value. The time constant to reach thermal equilibrium must be very small. The delta T should not change very quickly. The typical cold fusion calorimeter violates these principles: The cell is a Dewar flask or insulated vessel that causes the thermal time constant to be large. This guarantees jumpy, erratic, lively, interesting, inaccurate, poorly understood results. [my language] Shelton calculates in detail that Dewer flasks can have as much heat loss from conduction along the glass and silver, as from radiation, which are two quite differently behaved heat paths. There is usually much poorly understood heat loss out the lid of the cell, with its leads and tubes. "...untested assumption...accurately represented by the temperatures measured at single points in each. Any thermal gradients present in the solution or the surroundings could greatly influence the results. This systematic error may also be the basis for claims of 'excess heat' in flow calorimeters such as those of McKubre and Patterson...[delta T], the accuracy of which could easily suffer from the presence of temperature gradients and unaccounted-for thermal paths...Such isoperibol, temperature-rise flow calorimeters have not proven to be generally useful because of such problems." "A minimum requirement to establish the accuracy of a calorimeter is verification of electrical calibration with a known chemical reaction...it is also necessary to show the the calibration constant is independent of the location of the calibration heater and temperature sensors in the vessel...With the 'cold fusion' type heat-conduction calorimeter constructed in this study, when stirring was inadequate, we were able to repeatedly produce apparent 'excess heat' (either positive or negative) with a well-known chemical reaction, simply by changing the position of the heater or temperature sensors." A compact brass jacket isoperibol, heat-conduction calorimeter, 3.8 cm i.d. and 17.8 cm long, had seven inlet holes at the top for water from the distant constant temperature bath, maintained within +-0.2mK [that's 2/1000 degree K], which is discharged through brass tubes into the bottom of the cell, while seven outlet holes at the top let the water return to the bath. Two more tubes from the top to near the bottom are sealed at their bottom ends, kept filled with water to improve thermal conductance, and serve to hold temperature sensors. Water is circulated at over 5 liters per min from the distant bath through the 14 flexible tubes, which caused the cell to be named, "The Octupus". Inside the brass jacket is a pyrex test tube, .2 cm by 13.5 cm, holding 27.5 ml solution and a rotary stirrer at the bottom, specially adapted to properly stir the tall, narrow cell. Multiple temperatures taken every 22 second are: thermister bridge from cell to jacket, thermocouple pair from cell to jacket, thermocouple pair from cell to exterior ice bath. "If the calorimeter is working properly all three sensors should record equivalent responses to a heat effect." "...observing the mixing of dye injections. Visually, stirring appeared to be very rapid, at 1000 rpm (<1 s)." The cell measured very accurately the heat generated by precisely measured chemicals. The time constant was found to be about .5 min. The calibration constant was found in two ways. "Because the volume changes during the experiment, the calorimeter was calibrated at various liquid volumes." The change was about 2% per ml at 0.8 W power. The cell showed a persistent 8% greater thermister temperature change from the electical calibration heater, compared to chemical heating. "It was apparent that large systematic errors were present...Moving the calibration heater gave a different calibration constant at each new position. The results with position were random, ie. the lowest position (one-third of the way up the vessel) gave a constant ca. 18% high, while the highest position (two-thirds of the way up the vessel) gave a constant in agreement with the chemical reaction heats, and an intermediate position (middle of the vessel) gave a constant ca. 18% low. We concluded that the point temperature sensors were not measuring the average solution temperature. This source of systematic error probably accounts for many of the reports of 'excess heat' and much of the irreproducibility of 'cold fusion' calorimetry." "The influence of the stirrer was investigated by changing the stirrer motor from 1000 to 600 and 200 rpm. 'Excess heat' increased as the rpm was reduced, from ca. 8% at 1000 rpm to ca. 11% at 600 rpm to ca. 40% at 200 rpm. Despite visual indications, using dye injection, that stirring was adequate, these results show that it was not." An improved stirrer was used. "Difference between response to the calibration heater and a chemical reaction was < 1% (Table 4). The calorimeter was retested at various liquid volumes." Again, the change was < 2% per ml volume change at 0.8 W power. "Stability and repeatibility are not sufficient verification of the accuracy of a calorimeter. A chemical reaction with a known heat effect should always be used to verify electrical calibration...accuracy...with point temperature sensors can be significantly affected by inadequate mixing. The time constant of mixing must be much smaller than the time constant of heat transfer to the surroundings, otherwise the rate of heat transfer measured by point sensors will depend on the location of the sensors. Even when mixing appears to be rapid, electrical heating can produce calibration constants with large errors. Up to a 40% different response (i.e. 'excess heat') between the heater and a chemical reaction was observed in thes study...Problems in 'cold fusion' calorimeters include inadequate stirring, unstable heat paths, and inadequate calibration to validate use of point temperature sensors." The stirrer at low speeds could have created a stable vortex, possibly generating a Ranque-Hilsch tube effect, with the vortex warmer on its perimeter and cooler in its center. Would anyone like this post, or the entire report, to be published in Infinite Energy or Cold Fusion Times? Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 08:25:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15109; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:19:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:19:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123111916.00b72e90 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:19:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: pressure Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <33e94d5b.349d319b aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BH7Wt1.0.vh3.tBCoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:11 AM 12/21/97 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >About 100,000 Atm at best. If the lattice can take it. With a quick look at the back of an envelope, DD fusion should become significant at depths over 100 miles in the earth's crust. Surface rock gets pushed much lower in subduction zones, and these feed continental rim volcanos. So the dectection of tritium associated with some volcanos is explained. Also, has anyone tried putting heavy water (or deuterium, but water is probably an easier choice) in a diamond anvil? Should get significant neutrons to be detectable. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 09:03:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14573; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:51:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:51:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123114607.00a9bec0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:46:07 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Cosmology ( was Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BE9cA1.0.dZ3.ggCoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:46 PM 12/21/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >How'd we get outa there? We didn't. Most modern cosmologies recognize/assume that the universe is at the limit of closure--i.e. if the universe contained just a little less mass, it would not be closed, and if it were significantly more massive, it would not be expanding at all. Next look at modern theories of black hole formation. There is a rebound effect when the black hole forms. In a rotating black hole, this can briefly (in time exterior to the black hole) expose the contents of the ergosphere. In other words, the forming black hole is not in an equilibrium state. Now for inflation. I am in no sense an expert on inflation, but we can see the effects around us. Very early in the history of the universe, it expanded faster than the speed of light. The result of this, visible (or is it invisible?) now, is that only a small part of the universe is visible to us. This is best illustrated by the apparent conflict in the age of the universe. The oldest light we see is about eight billion years old, but there are visible stars that are older than that. The trick is that the current expansion of the universe is such that most objects nine billion light years away are travelling away from us faster than the speed of light, so light from them never reaches us. (Other theories say that space is expanding, and if two objects are far enough apart, light from one can never reach the other, as the distance between the objects is increasing faster than the speed of light, even though the objects are moving slowly in their own frame of reference. As far as I am concerned, those two views are really identical. However, there is current evidence that there is a unique inertial frame of reference associated with space. If so, you need the second model.) But if you want really strange, there are models which say that the energy required to create additional mass in the universe is exactly balanced by the additional energy represented by the mass being in the gravitational potential well of the universe. In these models, the net mass, charge, and spin of the universe is zero--everything started from a random vacuum fluctuation. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 09:16:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27204; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:07:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:07:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123120727.00bb69f0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:07:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971222072511.006c5c14 world.std.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_wWsM1.0.-e6.yuCoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:25 AM 12/22/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: If these virtual energies exist, they are vanishingly small and have not been proven to account for any of the serious much larger-magnitude phenomena discussed in vortex, or s.p.f., or involved in cold fusion, photoelectricity, etc. Unlike cold fusion where energy arises from the contraction of an excited ash-nucleus to its lowest energy level, and unlike photoelectricity where the energy arises from the field energies in the impinging photons, it remains unclear where the purported ZPE(vacuum) comes from. Uh, do you exist? The nuclear binding energy (strong force) that holds the nucleii of all atoms other than hydrogen together is carried by pi mesons (pions). But there are no pions in the nucleus, so how does the strong force get carried? It is carried by the virtual pions created by the quantum foam. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle gives us the distance that these virtual pions can travel, and that determines the maxiumum size of a nucleus. The energy density of the vacuum, on the other hand, determines how many virtual pions are created in a given area, and therefore the strength of the strong force. (Hint, look at the name of the force. ;-) So the vacuum energy is real, or you wouldn't be here. However, the vacuum energy can't be easily used, because it is the minimum level of energy possible in empty space. If you can extract this energy, you basically are destroying space. (The Casmir effect, or any matter for that matter, does just that. The properties of empty space are changed by the presence of matter. If you want to think of these distortions as gravity, there are theories that do just that...) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 09:42:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03210; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:38:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:38:05 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: Jed Rothwell Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:32:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199801230858_MC2-3069-42B8 compuserve.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] In defense (?!) of Win95 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"LzUV53.0.zn.xLDoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 23-Jan-98, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Why he needs Win95. Fair enough, everyone should use what works best for them. But isn't it amazing that it took until Win95 for you to get long file names. One would think that with their dominant market position that MS could produce good product. However, Win95 is purchased mostly because it is the defacto standard not because it is best OS and MS therefore has no incentative to improve the product. I see this is as problem with a marketing driven economy in that resources spent on advertising are more effective than devoting resources to product development. I am glad I don't have to use Win95 or any MS products. ___Ron From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 09:49:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22728; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:44:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:44:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:31:40 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Baloney from Shelton, Hansen, Thorne . . Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801231233_MC2-3070-A0E7 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"D06if2.0.2Z5.5SDoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Rich Murray, who believes anything the "skeptics" tell him, writes: To those of you who need to hear this, I command thee, by the authority of the one, to listen intently and deeply, not only to these words and the following excellent critical offering, but to the quieter comprehension within. Oh Give Us A Break! What quiet comprehension? The paper is put-up job. It is a string of mistakes, misinformation, obfuscation, and B.S. Let's look at the Abstract and skip the rest: Abstract: Claims of 'excess heat' from measurements of the heat of electrolysis at several watts of power are largely based on use of poorly characterized, isoperibol, heat-conduction calorimeters with single-point temperature sensors. Incorrect. Multiple sensors are common. The copper wall technique that Jones thinks he invented was used by Miles and many others. Pons & Fleischmann and the French AEC base their measurements on the heat of vaporization of water. Pons now uses multiple point static calorimetry. Jones later cites CETI (Cravens) as an example of one-point measuring. The Cravens paper published in I.E. and my critique of it in the same issue clearly state that multiple temperature sensors were used simultaneously: thermocouples, thermistors and a mercury thermometer. Three points were measured in the outlet stream (two on inlet) using three different types of temperature sensors based on three different physical principles. Two methods of stirring were employed (stirring and dripping). What more can anyone ask for? Nothing will ever satisfy the skeptics. When I used multiple thermistors and thermometers and I physically stirred a 200 ml sample in a beaker, they *still* claimed I could not be sure the outlet sample was 17 degrees hotter than the inlet water! That's taking scepticism past the point of insanity. Heat-conduction calorimeters with single-point temperature sensing and inadequate mixing are subject to large systematic errors resulting from non-uniform heat distribution within the system. At what power levels? In which cells? McKubre uses three different stirring techniques simultaneously. Experimenters are careful to prove that stirring is adequate. Jones runs at power levels and in performance domains 10 to 1000 times lower or higher than anyone else. His conclusions do not apply. Confirmation of electric-heater calibration by a chemical reaction with a well-known enthalpy change is a minimum requirement to insure accuracy. This is ALWAYS done, in ever paper! The well known chemical reaction is, of course, electrolysis with a blank cell, usually with a Pt cathode. Improper or incomplete calibration is a probable cause for many claims of 'excess heat' in 'cold fusion' experiments. This is a critique of a ghost paper. There is no direct object. Who improperly calibrated? When, where, in which paper? In the major papers calibration has been exhaustive. Noise levels have been confirmed over and over again before, during, and after the run. Rich asks: Would anyone like this post, or the entire report, to be published in Infinite Energy or Cold Fusion Times? Absolutely not! I suggest you submit it to Scientific American, Nature, New Scientist or the National Enquirer. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 09:53:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21840; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: CHiPR Home Page (Robert Eachus' Diamond Anvil) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:35:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2825$53f04c40$dda6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD27EA.A7917440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"uRTCs3.0.4L5.bODoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD27EA.A7917440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.chipr.sunysb.edu/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD27EA.A7917440 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CHiPR Home Page.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CHiPR Home Page.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.chipr.sunysb.edu/ Modified=408D561B2528BD0149 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD27EA.A7917440-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 10:08:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08744; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:00:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:00:42 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: pressure Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:56:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2828$32fa28a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"gPdit1.0.M82.7hDoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robert I. Eachus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 9:27 AM Subject: Re: pressure >At 10:11 AM 12/21/97 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >>About 100,000 Atm at best. If the lattice can take it. > >With a quick look at the back of an envelope, DD fusion should become >significant at depths over 100 miles in the earth's crust. Surface rock >gets pushed much lower in subduction zones, and these feed continental rim >volcanos. So the dectection of tritium associated with some volcanos is >explained. > >Also, has anyone tried putting heavy water (or deuterium, but water is >probably an easier choice) in a diamond anvil? Should get significant >neutrons to be detectable. I'm sure that the researchers at Carnegie Institute of Washington looked at that, Robert. The CHiPR link I sent might show what has been done in that area. Megabars with Hydrogen has been done with the diamond anvils. No O/U either. :-) Regards, Frederick > > > Robert I. Eachus > >with Standard_Disclaimer; >use Standard_Disclaimer; >function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 10:23:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12466; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:11:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:11:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:11:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199801231811.KAA27149 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Cosmology ( was Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium) Resent-Message-ID: <"N4H-M.0.Y23.hrDoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 06:46 PM 12/21/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: > >>How'd we get outa there? > > We didn't. Most modern cosmologies recognize/assume that the universe is >at the limit of closure--i.e. if the universe contained just a little less >mass, it would not be closed, and if it were significantly more massive, it >would not be expanding at all. If gravitation is a ZPE effect of compressing matter toward other nearby matter with which it is in good frequency match of its oscillations, due to interference with Doppler shifted wave energy from distant matter (ie like the Casimir effect), then, gravitation is NOT a pulling force intrinsicly induced by the local matter on other local matter. It is rather a push away from energy arriving from out there. In such a cosmology, it will always look like the universe is nearly flat, but open just a bit (as it does). AND, it will never close due to "gravity" pulling stuff together. The entire statement above is based on the assumption that gravitation is a pulling mechanism for transferance of action. That has NEVER been established, it is assumed. > Next look at modern theories of black hole formation. There is a rebound >effect when the black hole forms. In a rotating black hole, this can >briefly (in time exterior to the black hole) expose the contents of the >ergosphere. In other words, the forming black hole is not in an >equilibrium state. The rebound effect is external to the event horizon, agreed with that. But when you say "look at..." what you ought to look at is that modern theories break down at the singularity, THEREFORE, they are incorrect in some substantial way. See papers by Carlip UCD last fall regarding super-exponential build up in energy density creating what he calls new states in the quantum vacuum. All that is, is a fancy way of saying, the quantum vacuum can condense. If so, they inside the event horizon you have a core of aether condensate, aka quantum vacuum with more states than our normal spacetime. That formation of more states leads to a cooling despite the convergence. So, with an inertially confined core forced to stay there via ram pressure and a tremendous hydraulic jump and condensation due to the spherical convergence, you would then expect that given too much angular momentum that the core would breach confinement and shoot out into space. Now, Go see Alan Bridles quasar page with radio images of the jets, and go read about Arp and Burbidge and non velocity red shifts, and see the 3CR catalogue of QSO's to see radio images of hundreds of the thousands of these jet structures that have been found. > > Now for inflation. What goes in, must come out. Ergo, when the core inside the event horizon meets the event horizon due to the ram pressure momentum slowing down near the end of the convergence phase of our universe, (our universe is a region in the very much larger Omniverse which is oscillating), then the entire core breaches confinement and boils. That is inflation. When the boiling droplets all phase and frequency lock together, you have then formed spacetime, and, matter. I am in no sense an expert on inflation, but we can >see the effects around us. Very early in the history of the universe, it >expanded faster than the speed of light. The result of this, visible (or >is it invisible?) now, is that only a small part of the universe is visible >to us. We don't know whether we see a small part, or a large part, of the universe. This is because we don't know if we are near the leading edge of the expansion, or right dab in the middle. And, it is because we don't know what the inflation value was. If there was a lot of inflation, then odds are we are way in the middle and can see only a tiny fraction of the real total universe, like a dime sized circle on a meter sized circle. But, if inflation was only moderate, then we may actuall be able to see out to galaxies that were ramed by our expansion and were tattered as the shock front passed them (this is according to my theory now). Hubble's deep field found lots of tattered blue galaxies. Those are either the early formation of galaxies out of matter created inside our universe, or, they are galaxies that were headed into the previous universe sized black hole that gave birth to our universe. This is best illustrated by the apparent conflict in the age of the >universe. The oldest light we see is about eight billion years old, but >there are visible stars that are older than that. The trick is that the >current expansion of the universe is such that most objects nine billion >light years away are travelling away from us faster than the speed of >light, so light from them never reaches us. Are you certain of the 9 billion year figure? How long after the big bang was it that the afterglow CBR originated? ie, the CBR is due to the transition from radiation dominated universe to matter dominated universe, and I had it in mind that that occured in the first million years or so. That would mean that in principle we can see back to virtually the birth of the universe. Inflation, however, still leads to that radius limit potentially being a tiny part of the total universe as inflation happened prior to matter condensing out. In fact, the condensation of matter is what shut down the inflationary period. > But if you want really strange, there are models which say that the >energy required to create additional mass in the universe is exactly >balanced by the additional energy represented by the mass being in the >gravitational potential well of the universe. In these models, the net >mass, charge, and spin of the universe is zero--everything started from a >random vacuum fluctuation. Actually this is an important point. If the universe was born from a singularity, then there should be no angular momentum associated with it. BUT, if it was born when the core inside of the event horizon of a huge black hole breached confinement and boiled, then that expansion should still have the angular momentum of the black hole, but watered down like the CBR. Recently, some researchers have found that there is a residual signature assymetry to the rotational polarization of light along an axis of the universe. The results have been challenged, so we need to wait and see. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 10:39:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19214; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:28:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:28:30 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123132847.00bbbb40 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:28:47 -0500 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Farnsworth - Miley device Cc: , In-Reply-To: <01bd0efe$0414dc80$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FUC0K1.0.4i4.C5Eoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:21 AM 12/22/97 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >This is similar to a cylinrical magnetron type device patented by W.Gow at >Lawrence Berkely Labs in the 1950's. ... >I'm very familiar with this approach because I >Re-invented it in 1985. :-) Gee, I re-invented it in the early sixties, and actually made some improvements to it. Unfortunately, to produce usable energy would require a unit the size of a Saturn 5 to produce a couple net kilowatts. Tried to get one built just for experimental reasons though... The improvement was to replace the interior electrode with an electron beam. Using a beam meant that the plasma itself could be kept at a high positive charge which reduced the energy radiation and loss from free electrons in the plasma itself. Unfortunately, for this to work puts a limit on the plasma density. Fortunately, the plasma concentrates near the beam--actually the orbits of all positively charged particles pass near the beam, and the deuterons are moving at their fastest near the beam--but even that isn't enough to make high power densities possible. (You don't lose much energy to the electron beam, because you "cool" it and reuse it.) A few years later along came the tokamak, which does have a central current and looked like a variation on the same principle. However, in most tokamaks, the central current is allowed to get diffuse. I've often wondered how a tokamak would work if the central beam was cooled to get it down to a few millimeters in diameter. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 11:45:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12997; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:37:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:37:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:36:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: RE: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PFA-w2.0.wA3.Y5Foq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:08 PM 12/22/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >That's only a theory isn't it? (Could be true, I'll admit, just doesn't >jive in my amateur's brain). It is based on the idea that >particle-antiparticle pairs near the boundary of the Schwarzchild radius >separate, thus creating matter from the vaccum, is it not? This is >nonsense to me, as annihilation inside a black hole can not diminish its >mass due to the fact the photons from the annihilation must carry the >corresponding mass, and they can not escape any more than the other mass >can. Not how it works. Imagine a pair of virtual particles created near the event horizon for the black hole, the closer one falls in, and its anti-particle cannot now recombine with it. The particle that falls into the black hole is accelerated, which takes energy from the black hole--just enough to replace that used in creating the virtual particle that escaped. The end result is a particle appearing from "nowhere" near the event horizon, and the black hole losing a corresponding amount of energy. For ordinary black holes (formed from stars) in the universe, infalling light more than makes up for the small loss from this effect. But there could be "quantum black holes" containing about the mass of less than our moon. These would evaporate. The effective temperature of the black hole is inversely relate to its mass--as the black hole gets smaller, it gets hotter, until at the end it is radiating more energy than a star. Once Hawking came to this conclusion, astronomers started looking for the characteristic signature of an evaporating black hole. Some gamma ray bursts detected do seem to match the profile. (But not all of them. The one thing about gamma ray bursts is that seems to come in all sizes shapes and profiles. This would indicate that there may be many different soures for gamma ray bursts.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 12:01:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16120; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:55:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:55:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123145439.00bbd210 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:54:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Shermer's *Weird Things* Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <971222221331_-285388404 mrin54> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zuqBM2.0.ix3.qMFoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:13 PM 12/22/97 -0500, Tstolper aol.com wrote: >Zener cards? What are those? Maybe Robert I. Eachus would know. The "standard" test deck for ESP experiments consists of five cards of five different symbols, with each symbol in a different color. It has been a long while, but let me see. I see some lines, parallel wavy lines, they are blue. Next I see a star, yes that's it a yellow five pointed star... The other three were a hollow square, a circle, and a plus-sign shaped cross, but I can't remember which color went with which object, just that the other colors were red, green, and black. The average, assuming complete guessing would be to get five right out of 25. The Rhine Institute kept cumulative logs, and the averages were over six correct for all tests given. BUT, most of those tests were done without replacement, and if you can get a clue from the tester as to whether a guess was right, then there is an advantage to guessing some other symbol next. There were also some very good runs in there where the subject was able to tell the investigator how they had done it. For example one woman got the blue wavy lines right 3/4ths of the time. She wasn't mostly guessing blue, but the investigator's eyes seemed to pick up the blue from those cards. (That caused the institute to switch from a half-height divider on the table to one where the investigator was completely invisible.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 12:24:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16128; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:18:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:18:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123141921.00a8a404 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:19:21 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Distillation Calorimeter? In-Reply-To: <01bd27f6$7c7c4940$b393410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"AqwLp1.0.tx3.EiFoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:00 1/23/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Seems that one could use various liquids-liquid metals circulating through a >flash chamber and measure the amount of material distilled over into a >condensing chamber and measure the weight or volume of transported material >in a given time as a fairly accurate calorimeter? Not only is that possible, it has been explored in depth by many of the early workers in calorimetery (Lavoisier, Bunsen, etc.) and the technique is given the formal name "Compensation of the Thermal Effect by a Phase Transition" by Hemminger and Hohne in "Calorimetry: Fundamentals & Practice". Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 12:24:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16344; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:19:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Farnsworth - Miley device Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:14:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd283b$7ff3af60$e391410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"lY_jZ2.0.8_3.wiFoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: >Gee, I re-invented it in the early sixties, and actually >made some improvements to it. Unfortunately, to produce >usable energy would require a unit the size of a >Saturn 5 to produce a couple net kilowatts. Par for the course,Robert. It seems that the wheel is Re-invented and improved (?)about every decade or two. My "business partner" on this was a retired Chief Patent Counsel for "Big W". He ran the scrap between Maiman and Weider on the Ruby Laser patent ownership. Interesting fellow, Major in Army Intelligence in WWII. Did the Sitka investigation of the Resonant Cavity Radar stuff, and the Explosive Balloons that were sent over from Japan ca. 1943. A story in itself. But, somehow we missed the Gow patents in a search and couldn't get around it even with the Boron liner in the unit that was supposed to scavenge the "stripped" neutrons. Here we are talking millions of miles of particle travel to get a nuclear reaction collision and the Farnsworth-Miley are talking centimeters? Now, one wants to put in infrared light and potassium to turn it into a Cylindrical Magnetron Hydrino Reactor. CMHR sounds impressive enough, don't it? At 12,000 mile/sec the deuterons circling the center "Electron Beam Electrode" that you suggest, collides with a Hydrino formed from a D+ and LL- and a collision of this with a deuterium atom or molecule might get the size down to that of a Railroad Tank Car. Which would be a good way to make it "Portable" too. One car for the "primer" power, One for the reactor. and one to generate the electrical power and put it on-line at the nearest substation.Shining Time Station? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 12:37:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20738; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:25:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:25:21 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123132847.00bbbb40 spectre.mitre.org> References: <01bd0efe$0414dc80$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:24:28 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Farnsworth - Miley device Resent-Message-ID: <"U6oq-.0.v35.joFoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Eachus wrote: > A few years later along came the tokamak, which does have a central >current and looked like a variation on the same principle. However, in most >tokamaks, the central current is allowed to get diffuse. The tokamak idea developed out of the plasma pinch, in order to better contain hot plasma in a magnetic field. The simple pinch, also called Z-pinch and Bennett pinch, is a pinch where the plasma is a straight, curcular column or cylinder in shape, electric current flows along the column, and the encircling magnetic field exerts inward pressure (pinch) to confine the plasma. This pinch is extremely unstable. People quickly figured out that some of the instabilities could be eliminated by adding an magnetic field component in the axial direction, along the column. Usually there were still some bad instabilities remaining. Also, people realized that the plasma column had to be bent around to close upon itself, in order to keep plasma from streaming rapidly out the ends. This gave a plasma in the geometry of a toroid. All this went on in the early and mid 1950s. A Russian group led by Artsimovich took a brute force approach and increased the axial (now toroidally directed component) magnetic field to a high value. They had sound theoretical reasons to believe that this would eliminate most of the instabilities, and it did. However, the engineering cost of the high strength toroidal magnetic field is also very high, why other fusion research groups had decided against this route. It took Artsimovich's group about 10 years to get a lot of other details good enough, but by the late 1960s they were getting the best hot plasmas in the world. This is when the tokamak migrated to the rest of the world. If you want to do thermonuclear fusion, you need hot plasma... > ....... I've often >wondered how a tokamak would work if the central beam was cooled to get it >down to a few millimeters in diameter. Tokamaks and other magnetically confined hot plasmas are fundamentally different from Farnsworth and related devices. Farnsworth, etc. devices are collections of charged particles; the densities of electrons and ions are substantially unequal, and the net electric charge generates large electric fields. The electric fields play a major role in confining the energetic ions. Tokamaks are _plasma_ devices. By definition, plasmas have nearly equal densities of positive and negative electric charge, and electric fields within them are relatively small. Tokamak plasmas are confined magnetically. That toroidal current makes poloidal (wrapping around the plasma from its outer rim and through the central hole) magnetic field, which plays a necessary role in confining the plasma against escaping. It is the remnant of the pinching field. However, Robert is prescient. There is some electric field in tokamak plasmas. For years it was treated as a curiosity. In the last few years, however, it has been learned that the electric field can be manipulated and used to improve plasma confinement by reducing turbulence. There is a possible connection here, too, with Larry Wharton's negative viscosity in non-plasma fluids. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 12:51:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22746; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:42:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:42:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123154128.00aa7730 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:41:28 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34A6CEA1.6DF7 interlaced.net> References: <199712282051.OAA23982 mirage.skypoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2DyYy1.0.IZ5.a2Goq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:11 PM 12/28/97 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > ...IOW, In the rich countries >is it the under-educated groups that bare the most children... I suspect that bare children are more often found in tropical climates. ;-) However, the relationship between education, birth rate, and poverty is most of what the book "The Bell Curve" is about. Today, the highest birth rates are at the extremes of the spectrum, the underclass and the rich. In the area in between, the richer population segments have a higher rate of childbirth. Statisticians are not sure whether this is an artifact of how the statistics are gathered or not. For example, the highest correlation in anything you look at in this area is between birth of the second child and buying a house. So if you use "owns own home" vs. "rents" as an indicator of socioeconomic status, you will find that parents with three children are much better off than those with one. The same goes for educational level of parents--it is higher for later children, guess why--income, etc. So if you adjust data to compensate for these easily understood effects, the data left is very soft. In "The Bell Curve," most of the data is from longitudinal studies, taking a large group of children all the same age, and following them through decades of life. By eliminating age as a variable, all the interactions between age and education, number of children, income. etc., go away, and the raw data becomes much more useful. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 14:54:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25082; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:50:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:50:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:50:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801232250.QAA12154 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Question for Robert I. Eachus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"pTQ1L.0.o76.8xHoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert, You have consistantly posted that the Farnsworth/Hirsch fusor produces neutrons by deuterium stripping rather than true fusion. >>But deuterons seem to be easier to break apart than the >>binding energy indicates. It is simplistic to think that the >>reaction that occurs is spontaneous decay of the neutron, (d --> p + >>p + e + antineutrino) since the signature of stripping is lots of low >>to moderate energy neutrons. Robert I. Eachus How do you explain He3 and He4 reaction products produced in the Farnsworth/Hirsch fusor by your stripping mechanism? RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 14:57:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26047; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:53:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:53:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123175337.00b4c790 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:53:37 -0500 To: rmforall earthlink.net From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Stephens: Farnsworth, Miley's table top fusion thing Cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, rhull richmond.infi.net In-Reply-To: <34A9BBEE.36EA earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nbs0U1.0.oM6.-zHoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:28 PM 12/30/97 -0600, Rich Murray wrote: >Nobody who is truely familiar with these devices >harbors ANY reservations that they do classical hot fusion. As long as you accept that "classical" hot fusion involves both fission and fusion, I don't harbor any such reservations. But stripping is one of those dirty little secrets that anyone getting their hands dirty with real plasmas containing deuterium needs to understand. At best, it is a problematical fuel leak, and at worst it kills you from overexposure to radiation in an otherwise non-radioactive experiment. >If Mr. Eachus cares to take well known and accepted numbers for fusion >crossections out of the book, and apply conventional electrostatics >and plasma mechanics, he should easily be able to prove to himself >that the Fusor is a straight-forward fusion machine, based entirely on >well-established principles of nuclear science and conventional >physics. I am in the process of finishing an article for _Analog_ >magazine, in which I am suggesting that lower-voltage Fusors would >make a nice high-school science project. They are THAT SIMPLE! >Surely, if he can motivate himself to take a fair look, Mr. Eachus is >sufficiently knowledgable to do better than a high school science >nerd. Been there, done that, built some similar machines. But if you have deuterium in your plasma and depend on neutron detection as evidence of fusion, you are seriously misleading yourself. Now some of the neutrons from stripping will react with other atoms to cause apparent (real?) fusion, and in many cases the proton will be directly absorbed followed by beta decay. It depends on your plasma mix. And as I said in the message which was quoted, to say that stripping is not a viable energy source would be flat wrong. Stripping and self-targeting are artifacts of high temperature plasmas, and especially electrostatically accelerated plasmas. You break the deuteron apart, and, if you do it right, more energy comes out than went in by the time you are finished. If not, you can put all your energy into turning deuterium into ordinary hydrogen. >Having said all this, the obvious question is -- why has the design >not been pursued? The answer is that Fusors suffer from grid losses >-- the ions which fail to fuse on a given pass do not recirclate >enough times to assure reaction. The Farnsworth/Hirsch design misses >breakeven by a factor of about 10,000. Also, Fusors must operate at a >sufficiently low density to achieve a mean free path adequate to >assure the particles meet primarily in the central convergent focus >region or immediately adjacent mantle region (lower density but very >high rate of head-on collisions and at full particle energy), which >puts an upper limit on their power density. The early researchers, >though delighted with how easily the machines made fusion, could >easily see the limitations. We think they gave up too easily. Go read the Project Sherwood archives. Hirsch was just one of many who thought fusion was easy, then ran afoul of stripping. You can engineer around it, but if you go knocking deuterons together at high speeds, most of your energy will go into stripping. And incidently now you know why "they gave up", and I don't think it was too easily. It is easy to accelerate deuterons to 10 keV, 100 keV or higher. But if you want decent power output, you have to stay at 10 keV or lower. Otherwise, you get too much stripping. (The web is a wonderful thing 23-hits on Project Sherwood, including a historical page at http://fusion.gat.com/DNT/DNT26.htm which says: By the late 50's, the initial optimism had worn off a bit. The first experiments in the U.S., in England, and in the Soviet Union indicated that a plasma in a magnetic field was a much more complicated beast than had originally been anticipated (D. J. Rose referred to the problem as trying to confine Jello with rubber bands). Although 14 MeV neutrons were produced in early experiments (counting neutrons was a favorite occupation of experimentalists), it turned out that most of them resulted from high energy deuterons being accelerated by instabilities and hitting the walls of the devices. I also found the following reference, which I have a copy of somewhere around the house: CALL #: QC789.S5B5 CATNO: 63500 YEAR: 1958 STATUS: Author: Bishop, Amasa S. Title: Project Sherwood ; the U.S. program in controlled fusion. Series: Addison-Wesley books in nuclear science and metallurgy Publ: Reading, Mass., Addison-Wesley Pub. Co. [1958] End of digression.) This incidently is why d-Li6 is unlikely to ever be a useful fusion power source. It ain't clean (aneutronic) due to stripping, and you lose lots of energy that way. On the other hand, p-Li7 and p-B11 look much more difficult on paper, but stripping is not an issue. There are, on the other hand, mixes where most of the stripped deuterons result in either a neutron or proton being absorbed by a moderate Z atom and releasing about 10 MeV. Fusion-fission designs with high Z atoms like U238 or Th232, as I said, can give you several hundred MeV per neutron absorbed. Such plants would be dirty, but wouldn't require any enrichment of the uranium or thorium and wouldn't have a critical mass requirement. As I said before, this might make a great power source for spacecraft. I can explain in detail the politics that squelched any further research in this area, but I think you can see where came from. A small neutron rich energy source that has Plutonium 239 as a by-product gives arms control types nightmares. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 15:22:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17576; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:02:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:02:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123180131.00a99910 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:01:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Stripping by resonance Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ugJ5o.0.XI4.t5Ioq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:03 PM 12/30/97 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to >indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very loosly >bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, the deuteron >falls apart." >If this is true then it should be possible to flip the proton in the >deuterium atoms, in D2O for example, using nuclear magnetic resonance >(NMR), to achieve fission. Deuterium has a relatively low receptivity to >NMR stimulation though, but other another prospect might be 7Li. This also >leads to speculation about the prospects of achieving NMR induced fission >in N, F, and B. I can just see the headlines, "scientist discovers new process for turning gold into lead!" Yes, you might be able do it (split deuterium), but why? (If you did a really good job, I guess you might be able to produce neutrons in a dt mix, and draw net energy from the process, but there are much easier neutron sources.) You take a relatively rare commodity--priced higher than gold last I checked--and spend energy to turn it into the most common thing in the universe. As for the others, they are not that loosely bound. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 15:24:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19747; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:15:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:15:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980123181454.00b3c720 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:14:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Weight Loss Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34ACA6FC.4AED keelynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ZCYCD3.0.Sq4.XIIoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:36 AM 1/2/98 -0800, Jerry wrote: > In a small isolated room it would be impossible, >according to the Equivalence Principle, to tell from local measurements >whether the room was on the surface of the Earth in a 1 g gravitational >field or in a rocket ship accelerating at 1 g through gravity-free space. >The Equivalence Principle is now generally accepted in physics... I thought the Equivalence Principle was now dead? Or at least in need of restating. Recent experiments say that you can determine your velocity with regard to local space, and therefore determine if you are being accelerated. While this doesn't directly impact the equivalence of gravitation and inertia, it kills the original source of the name for relativity. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 15:25:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA31021; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:14:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:14:12 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:13:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general Resent-Message-ID: <"PG6Q03.0.ca7.2HIoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: so, John, do you have an opinion on cell-phone safety? I stopped using mine, was getting headaches after a few minutes. Even short calls made my ears feel tingly... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 15:31:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAB00251; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:20:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:20:12 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: protech frii.com To: John Schnurer Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:14:14 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Your Brain (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"PVAlB1.0.i3.hMIoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: *** Forwarded message, originally written by viijaksarananda on 23-Jan-98 *** John, I forwarded your general comments on Brain and received the following request which I am forwarding. Reply to: viijaksarananda Thanks. ___Ron Hi,Ron with greatest interest I read the forwarded material on the brain electric and magnetic research. I am very impressed by the researchers sensitivity and awareness about the complexity and subtlety of our biological structure. Is there a possibility to get further in touch with him?? I am working on the application of lowfrequency magnetic fields at the strength of pico Tesla for the treatment of neurological disorders.His technical and research experience could be of great help. Thank you very much With best wishes and regards Dada Viijaksarananda Microvita Research Lab From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 16:11:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04456; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:32:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:32:51 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: rmills blacklightpower.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Australian Patent Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:32:24 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34c92374.608447 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--=_34c92888190892109a98b09.MFSBCHJLHS" Resent-Message-ID: <"2_ixW1.0.X51.XYIoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ----=_34c92888190892109a98b09.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Dr. Mills, I wrote Dr. Farrell asking about your Australian patent number, because I never get a reply from you. He said that you wished me to get in touch with you regarding this. I am now doing this. I had been my intent to get a copy of your patent, and make it available to the vortex-l listserver group. As you may, or may not, be aware, there is considerable interest on that group at the moment for your process. One of the group members - Scott Little (associated with the Institute for advanced studies in Austin Texas), is attempting a replication of one of your experiments. The listserver is free for anyone to join, and in case you are interested in following the progress and discussions, I have attached a copy of the confirmation email, which shows how to join. You would be a most welcome member. I think it is fair to say that all of the active members of the list fear for the future of the human race, if it continues on its present course, and consequently all attempt to do their bit to seek viable alternatives. I have also posted a copy of this email to the list. I would like to post your response to this email to the list also, with your permission. Otherwise, I will just post a message of my own, with some indication of what you said. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk ----=_34c92888190892109a98b09.MFSBCHJLHS Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline X-POP3-Rcpt: rvanspaa mail Return-Path: Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (smartlst mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49]) by mail.eisa.net.au (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id JAA14249 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:33:13 +1000 From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA15352 for rvanspaa@eisa.net.au; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707252334.QAA15352 mx2.eskimo.com> To: rvanspaa eisa.net.au Subject: Re: subscribe References: <334fe3d3.212648 mail.eisa.net.au> <199704101302.GAA11841@mx2.eskimo.com> <33e2377d.4615563@mail.eisa.net.au> In-Reply-To: <33e2377d.4615563 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com You have been added to the subscriber list of: vortex-l eskimo.com the following mail address: rvanspaa eisa.net.au By default, copies of your own submissions will be returned. KEEP A COPY OF THIS MESSAGE IN A SAFE PLACE. IT CONTAINS INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THE VORTEX-L DISCUSSION GROUP. This is an automated subscription mechanism. For your verification, a transcript of the original subscription request is included below. If the wrong address has been subscribed and you seem to be unable to fix it yourself, reply to this message now (quoting it entirely (for diagnostic purposes), and of course adding any comments you see fit). ***************************************************************************** WELCOME TO VORTEX-L ***************************************************************************** WARNING: AT LEAST READ THE RULES BELOW! The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaffer, Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Skeptics beware, the topics also wander to any anomalous physics such as "Cold Fusion," reports of excess energy in "free energy" devices, chemical transmutation, gravity generation and detection, and all sorts of supposedly crackpot claims. Please see the rules below. This is a public, lightly-moderated list. Interested parties are welcome to subscribe. PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE SUBSCRIBING. There is no charge, but donations towards expenses are accepted (see rules below for suggested donation.) Admin addr: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Mail addr: vortex-L eskimo.com Webpage: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/wvort.html Moderator: billb eskimo.com William J. Beaty 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 206-781-3320 USA ************************************************************************* Vortex-L subscription instructions: To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. 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From your viewpoint the message traffic from Vortex-L will suddenly cease. If the email server on your internet service has a habit of overloading or crashing for several days at at time, you will probably encounter the Unsubscriber. If vortex-L traffic seems to suddenly stop, or if your messages to the group are returned with warnings that you are not subscribed, simply resubscribe to Vortex-L. Missed messages are available as textfiles on the Vortex-L webpage. ************************************************************************** Vortex-L Rules: 1. If VORTEX-L proves very useful or interesting to you, please consider making a $10US/yr donation to help cover operating expenses. If you cannot afford this, please feel free to participate anyway. If you would like to give more, please do! Direct your check to the moderator, address above. Any help you can give is sincerely appreciated. 2. This is not the sci.physics.fusion newsgroup; ridicule, debunkery, and namecalling between believers and skeptics are forbidden. The tone should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open, hop on board! Help us test "crazy" claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away. (For a good analysis of the negative aspects of skepticism, see ZEN AND THE ART OF DEBUNKERY by D. Drasin, on WEIRD SCIENCE page.) 3. Small email files please. The limit is set to 40K right now, those exceeding the limit will be forwarded to Bill Beaty. If you wish to start extremely off-topic discussions, please feel free to exchange initial messages on vortex-L, but MOVE THE DISCUSSION TO PRIVATE MAIL IMMEDIATELY. Some members are on limited service, or have to pay for received email. Diagrams and graphics can be mailed to me or John Logajan and posted on our webpages for viewing. 4. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE: when you reply to a message DON'T include the ENTIRE message in your reply. Always edit it a bit and delete something. The more you delete, the less traffic overload. The entire message should really only be included if: (A) you are replying to a message that is many days old, or (B) you are doing a point-by-point reply to many parts of a message. Many vortex users must pay by the kilobyte for receiving message traffic, and large amounts of redundant messages are irritating and expensive. So, when including a quoted message in your reply, ALWAYS DELETE SOMETHING, the more the better. 5. Please do not include any other email list in the TO line or the CC line of your messages to vortex-L. In the past this has caused thread leakage between different list and redundant messages as replies from subscribers go to both lists. It's OK to manually forward mail from other lists to vortex-L, as long as the TO line and CC line has only vortex-L and no other list. 6. "Junkmail" email advertizing will not be tolerated. While not illegal yet, widecasting of junk-email ads to listservers is against the Unwritten Rules of the Internet. Anyone who spams vortex-L with junkmail will be referred to the Internet Vigilante Justice team. ;) Occasional on-topic advertizing by long-time vortex-L users is acceptable. - Bill B. >From rvanspaa eisa.net.au Fri Jul 25 16:33:56 1997 >Received: from mail.eisa.net.au (root mail.eisa.net.au [203.63.152.11]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA15304 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:33:54 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from ppp3-63.eisa.net.au (ppp3-63.eisa.net.au [203.63.233.163]) by mail.eisa.net.au (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA14228 for ; Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:32:48 +1000 >From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) >To: vortex-l-request eskimo.com >Subject: subscribe >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:32:32 GMT >Organization: Improving >Message-ID: <33e2377d.4615563 mail.eisa.net.au> >References: <334fe3d3.212648 mail.eisa.net.au> <199704101302.GAA11841@mx2.eskimo.com> >X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ----=_34c92888190892109a98b09.MFSBCHJLHS-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 16:58:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06452; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:51:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:50:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Science News: The Z-Machine Resent-Message-ID: <"Hd80U.0.ha1.iiJoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: from Science News, Vol. 153, Jan 17, 98, pages 46-47: "The surprising revival of a venerable, nearly abandoned technique for creating a hot, dense plasma of ionized gas has produced a new contender in the effort to achieve sustainable nuclear fusion. "Located at the Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, the Z machine sends an enourmous blast of electricity through an array of parallel wires a few centimeters across, vaporizing the strands and generating a powerful magnetic field that dramatically compresses the resulting plasma. The pinched plasma, in turn, emits a burst of high-energy X rays. "In less than 2 years, researchers have increased the machine's output of X rays from 40 terawatts fo more than 210 terrawatts. Temperatures at the core of the compressed plasma have reached at least 1.5 million kelvins." The article is about a page of text (not available on-line) and the accompanying half-page photo, "Electric discharges illuminate the surface of the Z machine," is spectacular... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 17:41:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04097; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:36:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:36:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199801240131.UAA21832 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Full Mills Australian Patent in IE#17 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 20:36:40 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA04065 Resent-Message-ID: <"sCzCN1.0.s_.MMKoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: Robin wrote to Dr. Mills and Dr. Farrell re the BlackLight Australian patent. You should know that it appears in *FULL* in Infinite Energy #17, which is now at the printer and will be coming off the press (96 pages!) this coming Monday. Subscribers to Inf inite Energy will be receiving not only this patent very soon, but also a very lengthy interview with Dr. Mills by a Mr. Art Rosenblum. Rosenblum obtained the patent from Dr. Mills. Since I will be on travel to the Fiji Islands (on business and pleasure) for the next week beginning in a few hours, I will not be able to respond to replies to this e-mail. Following is the table of contents of Issue #17 of IE ( IE #17 will be sent out by our new full-time managing Editor Barbara A.F. DelloRusso and Jeremy Slayton, here in New Hampshire, while I am away): Contenst of Infinite Energy #17, December 1997-January 1998. Breaking Through, Editorial 3 New Physics, Life Saving, and Philanthropy Letters to the Editor 6 Hopes and Dreams ‹ Dr. Dennis Cravens 9 New Energy Partners Advances 10 Œ97 Asti, Italy Cold Fusion Conference: Reports William Collis, Dr. Peter Glück, and Bart Simon 13 An Interview with Dr. Randell L. Mills of BlackLight Power, Inc. Randell Mills and Art Rosenblum 21 TWA Magazine Profile of Eugene Mallove Bennett Daviss 36 Cold Fusion Comix‹A New Feature! 39 The Marinov Motor: A Brief History of Mine Jeffery Kooistra 40 Demystifying the Marinov Motor Dr. Thomas E. Phipps, Jr. 43 Letter to Scientific American‹Dr. Puthoff 48 Heretical Verities: Mathematical Themes in Physical Description A review of Thomas Phippsı Book by Jeffery Kooistra 49 More Evidence Supports Bulk Transmutation The Cincinnati Group, Trenergy, Inc. 52 ICCF7 NEWS and Plans/ Calendar 55 BRIEFS €TRENDS 2000 Book Promotes CF and Free Energy € ³Watch Hydrogen!² € Cold Fusion License Plate € Russian Cold Nuclear Transmutation Conference € Washington Politics of Nuclear Waste, Transmutation and Cold Fusion € 59 Jed Rothwell on new Japanese CF Book 62 Small is Profitable‹Rocky Mountain Institute 65 Randell Mills Hydrino Patent in Australia 67 Randell MIlls, Hydrinos, and Cold Fusion A Comment by Eugene Mallove 72 Metallographic & Excess Energy Density Studies of LGENTM Cathodes Subject to PAGD Regime Dr. Paul and Alexandra Correa 73 Hydrogen from the Vacuum?...and More.... Dr. Paul Rowe 79 More on Early Twentieth Century Alchemy Robert Nelson 86 Excess Heat Versus Transmutation David Moon 91 Another Piece of the Puzzle; Unity Engine Graham Toquer; Ken Rauen 93 Infinite Energy Highlights & ORDER FORM 94 Best wishes, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 18:18:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20355; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:13:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:13:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:06:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AfQG5.0.zz4.wuKoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., and Ralph, The 'accepted' level of RF irradiation USED to be 0.5 watts/kg of body weight. This level was specified, in general, because the only 'accepted' danger is tissue heating. Personally I think all cell phone antennas should be configured so as to NOT radiate toward the head. I will look up some articles this past year from Wireless System Design and RF Design, I subscribe to both. pp 66 Sept WSD, ... [paraphrased ...] interaction with ~ 20% of pacemakers .... In 80% of the tests with hearing aid users..there was no interference if the phone was 1 meter away.... I Wonder if they could hear the phone! Figure how much your head weighs. Figure maybe 1/2 watt ... one of you cell phone types can maybe tell us the output of the standard cell phone. NOW: IF it is 1/2 watt ... and it is RIGHT next to your head... and IF you think tissue heating is the ONLY POSSIBLE drawback of irradiation at ~ 900 m cps to ~ 1.2 g cps [is that right?] THEN ... in an area RIGHT next to the antenna ... you are probably over the limit. Me? Personally? No, not, no and not! -------------------- !!!!! I think the cell phone is a grand thing and has and will save many many lives. !!! ----------------------------------------- In one recent article the editor of a well read RF magazine said .. [and I will look up the article[s]] [paraphrased] ..... We should consider ways to cause the RF to NOT be directed at the head... but we don't know how to do that ... The editorial goes on to say someone will probably figure out a way to do this, the fear card will be played, and they will do well in the market. Well, it CAN be done, and I know of at least 8 design methods that are manufacturable ... and if anyone [manufacturer] wants to take me up on it we [the mfg and I] will be the 'first on the block' and will probably make a good piece of change. All the RF NOT absorbed by the head... it stands to reason ... will be radiated for , hopefully, improved communications. On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, ralph muha wrote: > so, John, do you have an opinion on cell-phone safety? > I stopped using mine, was getting headaches after a few > minutes. Even short calls made my ears feel tingly... > > r > > > My 35 cents. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 18:49:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25911; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:38:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:38:55 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34C953ED.7E4993F ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:37:33 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eLusu3.0.lK6.rGLoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ralph muha wrote: > so, John, do you have an opinion on cell-phone safety? > I stopped using mine, was getting headaches after a few > minutes. Even short calls made my ears feel tingly... I am assuming you are addressing me. 8^) I don't see it, but I wont dismiss your symptoms. You may be of a select few that are hypersensitive to electromagnetic fields, even small ones. If you have a problem, listen to your body. I personally can not walk through the perfume section of a department store without getting a debilitating sinus attack. I am sure many of our 'habits' in this modern age are not particularly good for us. The secret, IMO, is moderation in all things. Most new phones are only 3 watts, some are down to 1.5. Even if you still have a pre-1990 brick phone you are only up to 6 watts. Realistically you will get higher exposure facing your computer screen or riding in a cab with an illegal signal boosted CB. If you suspect you are having a problem, try other electrical appliances to see if you get the same symptoms. Your sensitivity may not be to electromagnetic fields, but high range audio fequencies. I find it ironic that as signal strength on cell phones has decreased over time, reports of suspected problems have increased. To me it seems to be an odd correlation that causes me to not want to believe cell phones are the smoking gun. Just MY opinion, not necessarily that of my employer. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 19:09:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00258; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:05:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:05:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:58:13 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Shermer's *Weird Things* In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123145439.00bbd210 spectre.mitre.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hz6P5.0.k3.WfLoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Cut-------- On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Robert I. Eachus wrote: > At 10:13 PM 12/22/97 -0500, Tstolper aol.com wrote: > > blue, but the investigator's eyes seemed to pick up the blue from those > cards. (That caused the institute to switch from a half-height divider on > the table to one !!!! where the investigator was completely invisible. !!!! YEAH! Now THAT is REALLY cool! > > > Robert I. Eachus > > with Standard_Disclaimer; > use Standard_Disclaimer; > function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 19:14:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20922; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:10:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:10:09 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34C95B87.17B math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:09:59 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: pressure References: <3.0.1.32.19980123111916.00b72e90 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VXBaN3.0.p65.GkLoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > So the dectection of tritium associated with some volcanos is > explained. A Theory put forth by Steve Jones et al prior to the 1989 CF press conference. > > Also, has anyone tried putting heavy water (or deuterium, but water is > probably an easier choice) in a diamond anvil? Should get significant > neutrons to be detectable. > Steve Jones did this several years ago, found no neutrons. ---- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 19:18:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22678; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:15:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:15:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199801240315.WAA09161 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:07:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Microwaves on the Brain [was: About your brain ....] Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34C953ED.7E4993F ecg.csg.mot.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"XnvYz.0.AY5.IpLoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 23 Jan 98 at 20:37, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:37:33 -0600 > From: John Steck > Organization: Motorola Inc. > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > I don't see it, but I wont dismiss your symptoms. You may be of a > select few that are hypersensitive to electromagnetic fields, even small > ones. If you have a problem, listen to your body. Right. Hypersensitivity to EM fields is a known clinical disorder in Scandanavian countries. In Britian, from a group of 2000 patients with extreme allergy symptoms, the cause in approx. 200 cases was found to be environmental EM fields (power lines, radio transmissions, etc.). Solution: move out of town, and install shielded house wiring. The possibility of adverse health effects from "exotic" EM fields that some here are experimenting with, should not be ignored. ----------------- Websites with info on EMF health effects: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/bridlewood-emfinfo/ http://infoventures.microserve.com/emf/ http://www.microwavenews.com/ http://safeemf.iroe.fi.cnr.it/safeemf/emfref2.htm http://www.mcw.edu/gcrc/cop/cell-phone-health-FAQ/toc.html Messages below are from the mail-list: EMFLDS-L LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ----------------- Date sent: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:12:30 -0500 Send reply to: afrey uu.net From: Allan Frey Subject: cell phones and headaches To: EMFLDS-L LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU A paper I wrote on cell phones and headaches has now been published by the journal online and will appear in the print journal soon. Following is the abstract and citation information. The full article can be downloaded during the next few days from the journal site free of charge even if one is not a subscriber to the journal. Published in Environmental Health Perspectives: a journal published by the National Institutes of Health. Frey AH. Headaches from cellular telephones: are they real and what are the implications? Environ Health Perspect 106:101-103 (1998). [Online January 22 1998] http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1998/106p101-103/frey/abstract.http Headaches from Cellular Telephones: Are They Real and What Are the Implications? Allan H. Frey Randomline, Inc., Potomac, MD 20854 USA (afrey uu.net) ABSTRACT There have been numerous recent reports of headaches occurring in association with the use of hand-held cellular telephones. Are these reported headaches real? Are they due to emissions from telephones? There is reason to believe that the answer is "yes" to both questions. There are several lines of evidence to support this conclusion. First, headaches as a consequence of exposure to low intensity microwaves were reported in the literature 30 years ago. These were observed during the course of microwave hearing research before there were cellular telephones. Second, the blood-brain barrier appears to be involved in headaches, and low intensity microwave energy exposure affects the barrier. Third, the dopamine-opiate systems of the brain appear to be involved in headaches, and low intensity electromagnetic energy exposure affects those systems. In all three lines of research, the microwave energy used was approximately the same-in frequencies, modulations, and incident energies-as those emitted by present day cellular telephones. Could the current reports of headaches be the canary in the coal mine, warning of biologically significant effects? Key words: brain, cellular telephones, electromagnetic fields, eye, hazards, headaches. -- Allan H. Frey Email: afrey uu.net 11049 Seven Hill Lane Voice: 301.299.5181 Potomac, MD 20854, USA --------------------- Date sent: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:34:51 -0800 Send reply to: "Electromagnetics in Medicine, Science & Comunications" From: Daniel Weinberg Subject: Re: cellulars Wireless Technology Research, 1711 N Street, NW, Suite 200, Washington, DC 20036 sponsors investigation of biological effects of EMF from communications devices. They sponsored a preliminary study of cellular phones and now have detailed studies underway. Their home page is: http://www.WTRLLC.com. I have not visited it but it should have good information for you. They suggest you use Netscape to view it. Dan Weinberg -- Tel. (408) 723-1486 1844 Schooldale Drive, San Jose, CA 95124-1136 Please address future mail to bardan aya.yale.edu ----------------- http://www.microwavenews.com/FDA_Workshop_Abstracts.html Physical Characteristics and Possible Biological Effects of Microwaves Applied in Wireless Communication Workshop held in Rockville, MD, February 7, 1997 Spontaneous and chemically induced brain tumors in rats chronically exposed to digital Cellular phone fields; a possible balance between damage and repair In molecular regulation of cell growth. Ross Adey, VA Medical Center, Loma Linda CA 92357 We have reported (Proc. Bioelectromagnetic Soc., 18th Annual Meeting, 1996) incidence of spontaneous and chemically initiated brain tumors in Fischer rats, chronically exposed to cellular telephone fields conforming to the North American Digital Cellular (NADC) standard (carrier frequency 836.55 MHz, near field density at skin surface 1.0 mW/cm2, 3:1 multiplexed TDMA (Time-Division-Multiple-Access) modulation, 33% duty cycle) Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 19:31:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23453; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:53 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C953ED.7E4993F ecg.csg.mot.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:21:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general Resent-Message-ID: <"W3AcN1.0.Mk5.FvLoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I don't see it, but I wont dismiss your symptoms. You may be of a >select few that are hypersensitive to electromagnetic fields, even small >ones. If you have a problem, listen to your body. I personally can not I'm a software engineer, I've been living in front of computer screens for well over 20 years. The only time I ever registered any physical effects was in the late 70's when I was working on a Tektronix 4014. Every time I hit the screen erase key, my facial hairs would twitch... r From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 20:06:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29843; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:02:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:02:50 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Shelton, Hansen, Thorne, Jones CF critique: Murray summary Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:00:01 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980124040639027.AAA194 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"1MgFQ3.0.7I7.fVMoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For those with short memories, this has been posted before and as I recall I critiqued it before with respect to the A&Z paper and showed that its presumptions are inapplicable. It is truly a straw man argument, not even good science. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 21:54:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04302; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:53:34 -0800 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:47:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: TEK ...Re: About your brain .... In general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"a507V.0.831.DFNoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If I remember ... and, Ralph, correct me if I am wrong, This Tek is a storage scope. And how it worked is it had a sort of an additional acceleration set of grigs and potentials. The fronts of these things, as many CRTs will exhibit a reasonable level steady state field, electrostatic in nature as far as your hairs are concerned. Most CRTs just hang out, and when you turn off the power the decay of the field is relatively slow. This thing, when you hit the 'erase' button, abruptly cleared the storage potential, might even has induced a momentary counter bias... In any event it would cause an ABRUPT change in the electrostatic field. Remember ... Benjamin Franklin invented electricity by rubbing two cats backward ... If you could 'abruptly turn off a cat' you might have the same effect. I will have to say your hairs DID twitch ... physically! The rapid change of state of electrostaic fields, and basic electrostatic field work has been one of my areas for years and I have a couple of patents, provisional and formal applied for, in the area. The things that happen when you start making the abrupt changes happen is in and of itself the fodder for a number of really interesting stories. Example: I had a 40 KV field set up that I caused to go on and off REAL abruptly. If one of the field source plates was near the side of a wooden table, and vertical, the changing field would cause a small but rapid lift on loose 8 1/2 by 11 inch papers... since the plates was at one edge of the table this would cause the loose paper, on a dry day, to lift up, maybe 0.5 mm ... and 'scootch over' ... along the table. Now if the chop rate was 10 cps... this would make a noise... and you could SEE it. If higher, maybe 2 to 3 k ips [interruptions per second] then the paper would sort of glide across the table. Another effect was it would deposit charge on any conducting insulated thing.... like a HUMAN with insulating soles .. and a charge pump effect would obtain ... with some losses included, every interruption would 'hop up the charge' to the tune of 20 to 100 V per go, and the people standing around would just go up. One visitor saw the paper move ... stare at it... became decided it was time to leave ... there was a nice 'snap' to the door knob on the way out. I got yelled at an had to put up signs! Big fun.... On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, ralph muha wrote: > >I don't see it, but I wont dismiss your symptoms. You may be of a > >select few that are hypersensitive to electromagnetic fields, even small > >ones. If you have a problem, listen to your body. I personally can not > > I'm a software engineer, I've been living in front of computer screens > for well over 20 years. The only time I ever registered any physical > effects was in the late 70's when I was working on a Tektronix 4014. > Every time I hit the screen erase key, my facial hairs would twitch... > > r > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 21:58:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04523; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:55:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:55:34 -0800 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:49:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Harvard Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"skLsy2.0.b61.5HNoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., If anyone has contacts at Harvard: I am trying to get in touch with, by E mail hopefully, Stephen Jay Gould, Author and teacher, Antioch College Alum. Thanks, John Herman Schnurer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 22:00:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20068; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:57:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:57:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C9730F.45E5 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:50:23 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Population and wealth References: <199712282051.OAA23982 mirage.skypoint.com> <3.0.1.32.19980123154128.00aa7730@spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5xKag.0.Uv4.GBOoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > > At 05:11 PM 12/28/97 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > ...IOW, In the rich countries > >is it the under-educated groups that bare the most children... > > I suspect that bare children are more often found in tropical climates. > ;-) Ooooh, ya got me, Robert! My sweet wife (the college girl) bore 5 bare children and she thought the process was a bear. A New Year's resolution - stop philosophizing about world population when I are one! > Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 23 23:19:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29786; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:15:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:15:22 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 07:14:06 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cd7a14.22788043 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370 spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Gjq131.0.GH7.7KPoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:36:14 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] > Not how it works. Imagine a pair of virtual particles created near the >event horizon for the black hole, the closer one falls in, and its >anti-particle cannot now recombine with it. The particle that falls into >the black hole is accelerated, which takes energy from the black hole--just >enough to replace that used in creating the virtual particle that escaped. [snip] It's the last bit that hides the magic. Exactly how does energy get out of the black hole to turn the virtual particle into a real one? (I.e. to repay Heisenberg :). Even light can't escape, and that's the fastest form of energy transfer that we know about. So either a faster form of energy transfer exists, or this truly creates energy from the vacuum, which in turn implies that the black hole doesn't in fact evaporate. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 03:15:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12469; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:12:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:12:53 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Weight Loss Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:11:32 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34d9cbbe.43703118 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123181454.00b3c720 spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123181454.00b3c720 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9LsoC.0.j23.poSoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:14:54 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] > I thought the Equivalence Principle was now dead? Or at least in need >of restating. Recent experiments say that you can determine your velocity >with regard to local space, and therefore determine if you are being >accelerated. I would love a reference for this (preferably on-line :). >While this doesn't directly impact the equivalence of >gravitation and inertia, it kills the original source of the name for >relativity. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 05:26:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23131; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 05:23:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 05:23:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 07:21:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801241321.HAA21015 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Stripping by resonance Cc: aki ix.netcom.com To: eachus mitre.org Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"pkmSr2.0.Hf5.9jUoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 24, 1998 Robert, you wrote: >Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to >indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very >loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, >the deuteron falls apart." Very interesting. If you would, please let me know the source publication about the 'loosely bound' proton and neutron in deuterium. Thanking you in advance, =Akira- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 08:08:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10554; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:05:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:05:39 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <6f0e1b17.34ca10ae aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:02:52 EST To: rvanspaa eisa.net.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"ScEYx2.0.qa2.H5Xoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/24/98 1:16:13 AM, rvanspaa eisa.net.au wrote: <> Another (similar to black hole) creation of energy from the vacuum is discussed in the Scientific American article "Decay of the Vacuum," Dec 1979 issue. Here a supercharged nucleus derived from heavy particle collision causes electron-positron pairs to emerge (for free) from the vacuum as a result of the potential energy associated with the supercharged nucleus. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 08:29:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10647; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:26:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:26:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CB3D62.6A79 bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 05:25:55 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general References: <34C953ED.7E4993F@ecg.csg.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q4pzv1.0.Fc2.xOXoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Steck wrote: > I find it ironic that as signal strength on cell phones has decreased > over time, reports of suspected problems have increased. To me it seems > to be an odd correlation that causes me to not want to believe cell > phones are the smoking gun. > > Just MY opinion, not necessarily that of my employer. > > -- > John E. Steck > Prototype Tooling > Motorola Inc. John, When I was a system engineer for Motorola Communications in the late seventies, there was a concern about the field strength levels posed by hand-held radios and especially the speaker/microphone/antenna combination often worn by law enforcement officers. It was easily demonstrated that these levels fell below the recommended safe levels by OSHA (now NIOSH). However, opponents often pointed out that the then Soviet Union's standards for non-ionizing radiation were 1,000 times more restrictive than in the US. What was not addressed was the concern of how detrimental effects varied with frequency. The radios in our systems were typically in the UHF band (~500 MHz); however, the new PCS radios (digital cellular) operate in the 2 GHz band. I fear that any effects will become more pronounced as higher frequency fields are employed and we approach the resonant frequencies of our "precious bodily fluids". Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 08:38:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10622; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:26:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:26:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CB39EF.236E bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 05:11:11 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gSLvz3.0.ub2.rOXoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: [snip] > In one recent article the editor of a well read RF > magazine said .. [and I will look up the article[s]] [paraphrased] > ..... We should consider ways to cause the RF to NOT be directed at the > head... but we don't know how to do that ... [snip] I find that my tin-foil hat is quite effective in shielding this and the government's mind control signals. Don't forget the grounding straps running down to BOTH heels. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 08:46:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12303; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:43:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:43:34 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:38:10 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd28e6$75176ae0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"lIKwz1.0.703.qeXoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Terry J. Blanton To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 9:08 AM Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general >John Schnurer wrote: > >[snip] > >> ..... We should consider ways to cause the RF to NOT be directed at the >> head... but we don't know how to do that ... > >[snip] > >I find that my tin-foil hat is quite effective in shielding this and the >government's mind control signals. Don't forget the grounding straps >running down to BOTH heels. I think that you will find helmets and body armor like they wore in the movie EL Cid most fitting, so to speak. Superconducting alloys will give it the modern high-tech touch. Avoid insulating soles though, or your complaints will be groundless. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Terry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 09:27:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21024; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:24:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:24:03 -0800 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:23:55 -0800 Message-Id: <199801241723.JAA17948 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Stripping by resonance Resent-Message-ID: <"MAN1h3.0.Q85.oEYoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >January 24, 1998 > >Robert, you wrote: > >>Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to >>indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very >>loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, >>the deuteron falls apart." > > Very interesting. If you would, please let me know the source >publication about the 'loosely bound' proton and neutron in deuterium. > See Sci Am bio on Oppenheimer, or other comment by him regarding making radioactive isotopes via neutron stripping. "The most useful element there is for making radio-isotopes". Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 10:09:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20770; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:01:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:01:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:54:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RF exposure ...Re: About your brain .... In general In-Reply-To: <01bd28e6$75176ae0$LocalHost default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"bqBGG2.0.S45.hnYoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., Reducing Radio Frequency Exposure to Human body The contributions of various Vos about shields, comical and not so comical was to be expected. The reduction of RF exposure probably cannot HURT you. There are in use now, and proposed, and certainly will in the future be: a] new RF bands, frequencies b] varied power levels c] varied transmission methods which cause the RF to be on for periods and off for periods, and, in O-O PS, or On-Off per second, these can be 10 ot 11 PPS to 50 or 60 PPS... and there will certainly be others. My post on limiting the RF exposure is a very real thing. There are benefits to the new methods of limiting the RF beyond the reduction of exposure. These include but are not limited to; a] possible reduced power requirement and increased RF communication distance b] power the same, but longer range c] possible reduced size. d] economic benefit to first manufacturers The main point is I read many many journals and follow many lines of research. When I see what I call a hole, I try to fill it. In most cases "a hole" is a often a statement such as "there is no way to sense helicopter rotor blade icing." So I fill holes in many areas, cell phone and other personal RF applications and the reductions of RF exposure is one. Some people have a hard time with this. Some say "You can not do this, you can not be up to speed in many areas." What some of these people mean is that anyone who claims this MUST be blowing smoke. No one has a problem with people memorizing sports or other trivia, or people in buyers' positions that have, at their "mental finger tips" information from background to specifics, prices, histories and manufacturers, on a wide products.... or some stock and commodities brokers with an even wider range of seemingly disparate facts, from hogs, to weather, to gold to dgold mining methods. I just choose science over stocks or sports. And limiting the RF without "very cool RF porkpies" ... this is another hole! And big fun! J On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry J. Blanton > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general > > > >John Schnurer wrote: > > > >[snip] > > > >> ..... We should consider ways to cause the RF to NOT be directed at the > >> head... but we don't know how to do that ... > > > >[snip] > > > >I find that my tin-foil hat is quite effective in shielding this and the > >government's mind control signals. Don't forget the grounding straps > >running down to BOTH heels. > > I think that you will find helmets and body > armor like they wore in the movie EL Cid most > fitting, so to speak. Superconducting alloys > will give it the modern high-tech touch. Avoid insulating soles though, or > your complaints > will be groundless. :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > >Terry > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 10:44:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31565; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:39:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:39:18 -0800 X-Sender: rmuha mail Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34CB3D62.6A79 bellsouth.net> References: <34C953ED.7E4993F ecg.csg.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:38:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: ralph muha Subject: Re: About your brain .... In general Resent-Message-ID: <"kSj7e3.0.7j7.KLZoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: visit the URL to see the picture... http://www.brunel.ac.uk:8080/depts/fdtd/public_html/emu/cost244.html > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Emu/fdtd: example results > > This (sadly degraded) image is from a movie I produced using matlab. > It shows the electric field from a mobile 'phone propagating through a > simulated human head. The antenna is on the right. You can see the > amplitude of the waves decreasing in the direction of propagation as > energy is dissipated in the brain tissue. > > [Image] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 11:03:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25810; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:46:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:46:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "John Schnurer" Cc: Subject: Re: RF exposure ...Re: About your brain .... In general Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:41:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd28f7$ad71ee40$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"YF9xa3.0.6J6.TSZoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 11:00 AM Subject: RF exposure ...Re: About your brain .... In general > Dear Vo., > > Reducing Radio Frequency Exposure to Human body > > The contributions of various Vos about shields, comical and not >so comical was to be expected. Tell you what wasn't comical, John. In May of 1981 there was a "Superpower" UHF station (Channel 14, 170-476 Megahz > One Megawatt ERP)that went on the air on a mountain peak a mile above Albuquerque (10,600 ft above sea level. All the sudden I was noticing a high pitched squeal in my ears and went to the clinic for tinnitus testing. When I got in the soundproof electrically-grounded test booth the squeal stopped. The squeal turned out to be the 15,750 synch pulses on the tv transmission signal. I could even tell when the signal was transmitting the color-burst sub-carrier. The Sh*T hit the fan with the FCC and they passed the buck to the EPA. That channel is no longer on the air. And now instead of brute force power, the tv broacasters are using dozens of translators all over their coverage area. Unfortunately for some residents of Taos a few year back some of the folks were detecting a hum which is down at the 30 HZ Frame rate. With additional local translators and more em transmission in this remote area this effect seems to have dimenished. The low frequency hearing and Cochlear Demodulation biophysics that can do this is being heavily researched. I build a double-blind "faraday" experiment for Paramount a few years ago for some experiments at Taos, unfortunatly the the driver (a former CNN reporter-F16 qualified pilot fresh from the Gulf War) left the tailgate of the pickup down after a press interview in Santa Fe and when he got up 45 mph the thing slide on the slick bedliner and landed in the middle of a busy 4-lane highway. He about went deaf trying to hammer the dents out of the very expensive test chamber! Don't preach to this old preacher about what is or isn't funny. :-) > > The reduction of RF exposure probably cannot HURT you. There are >in use now, and proposed, and certainly will in the future be: > > a] new RF bands, frequencies > b] varied power levels > c] varied transmission methods which cause the RF to be on for >periods and off for periods, and, in O-O PS, or On-Off per second, these >can be 10 ot 11 PPS to 50 or 60 PPS... and there will certainly be others. > > > My post on limiting the RF exposure is a very real thing. There >are benefits to the new methods of limiting the RF beyond the reduction >of exposure. These include but are not limited to; > > a] possible reduced power requirement and increased RF >communication distance > b] power the same, but longer range > c] possible reduced size. > d] economic benefit to first manufacturers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 11:18:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05805; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:15:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:15:17 -0800 Message-ID: <34CA3DC6.1246 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:15:18 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: LarryAtoms aol.com, jimostr@ctainforms.com Subject: Reading material Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zMt0X2.0.dQ1.3tZoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To vortexers with time on their hands: If we ever think we vortexers have a "lock" on way-out anomalous ideas, check out the title index of the Interstellar Propulsion Society at: http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/TITIDX/titleidx.html Too bad all of these are not on-line! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 17:51:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28191; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:48:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:48:02 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD28F9.2A4FEA10.JoeC transmutation.com> From: Joe Champion To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Transmutation program Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:52:04 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8ainM2.0.Gu6.Gdfoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: During the past years I have worked on numerous nuclear profiles as to predict the outcome of an experiment. Some of the results have been posted on this forum. I cannot guarantee if the information is of value, however the program that generated this information is now available for "free" at: http://www.transmutation.com/download.htm It is very flexible and allows one to set minimum and maximums on energy and natural abundance. My thanks to Jim Uban (a vortexian) for his assistance in development of the software. Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 19:49:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12437; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:25:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:25:22 -0800 Message-ID: <34CAB0A3.3598 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:25:23 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SL fusion monkey wrench?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XhVnB.0.D23.W2hoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Does this throw a monkey wrench into SL fusion? Or is it a "so what?"? "THE DURATION OF SONOLUMINESCENCE (SL) PULSES has been determined" See >> http://www.aip.org/enews/latest/physnews.htm Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 21:39:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10319; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:29:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:29:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980124232845.0085c160 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:28:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: low energy x-ray tube? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7lMba2.0.9X2.rsioq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm looking for a photon source with maximum intensity in the 15-30 eV range. That's roughly 400 - 800 A ...i.e. extreme UV or soft x-rays. Does anybody know of anything that emits in this wavelength/energy range? How about an x-ray tube operated at 30-50 volts (vacuum path from tube to target of course)? Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 22:12:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07019; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:58:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:58:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: SL Fusion Monkey-Wrench? Producing single-bubble sonoluminescence Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:54:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2955$bcadaee0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01BD291B.104ED6E0" Resent-Message-ID: <"PiXn4.0.bj1.BIjoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BD291B.104ED6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a web page goodie by Hiller at UCLA, mentioned in Frank Stenger's aip reference. http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~hiller/sl/makingSL.html ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BD291B.104ED6E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Producing single-bubble sonoluminescence.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Producing single-bubble sonoluminescence.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~hiller/sl/makingSL.html Modified=E08515D95429BD018E ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BD291B.104ED6E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 24 22:35:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09956; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:21:08 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:17:28 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2958$e95eb1c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"68Q5I2.0.UR2.Idjoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 10:34 PM Subject: low energy x-ray tube? >I'm looking for a photon source with maximum intensity in the 15-30 eV >range. That's roughly 400 - 800 A ...i.e. extreme UV or soft x-rays. Does >anybody know of anything that emits in this wavelength/energy range? How >about an x-ray tube operated at 30-50 volts (vacuum path from tube to >target of course)? The Free Electron Laser (FEL)work at White Sands and Thomas Jefferson Labs (formerly The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerater Facility, CEBAF in Hampton Virginia) Use electron beams of up to 4 Gigavolts running over a "magnetic speed bump". to get monochromatic UV in this range. :-) They effort is to get monochromatic photons with this wavelength for making very high density printed circuits etc. I think the CEBAF (Jefferson Labs) work in this area lost funding recently. Seems that 4 Gev electrons (relativistic mass equal to a helium atom) are expensive. :-) Some guy at WSMR figured out a way to capture some of the deceleration energy of the relativistic electrons after they generated the UV in the "speed bump". Other than that Vacuum Arcs of Hydrogen will produce 91 nm UV. And vacuum Helium Arcs will produce a mix of the rest. But, getting them through something is a bit of a problem. The Orbiting Solar Observatory (OSO) class satellites measure these from the Sun. This was the data source that I and a Cohort at Hanford used when pursuing the "Quasi-Neutron" in the early 80s, or what Mills calls the Hydrino. :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 00:17:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19269; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:04:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:04:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:59:36 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2967$2e209720$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"z6F5z.0.ji4.s7loq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott asks >I'm looking for a photon source with maximum >intensity in the 15 - 30 ev range. >Thats roughly 400 - 800 A ...i.e. extreme UV or soft >x-rays. >How about an x-ray tube operated at 30-50 volts >(vacuum path from tube to target of course)? Scott the x-ray or EUV wavelength of a 12,400 volt photon is one angstrom...i.e. 1.0E-10 meters. The x-ray efficiency e = 1.1E-9*ZV . The photon (x-ray-euv) given off by the first hydrogenic electron is 13.6*Z^2. Thus for Beryllium 13.6*4^2 = 218 ev, and Boron =340 ev. All of the other x-ray-EUV spectra 15-30 ev will come out of this. Since any of the metals (since you want to use low voltage) will give a spectrum below 13.6*Z^2, and you want to keep the efficiency 1.1E-9*ZV as high as possible, Beryllium foil or alloy-foils of Be (handling precautions)would be a choice. Next above Boron would be a Graphite "paper" commercially available in thin sheets. 13.6*6^2= 490 electron volt photons and under. Since the soft x-ray-EUV eff.= 1.1E-9*VZ, SUPER-THIN Gold foil with a few hundred volts (or less) electron bombardment 1.1E-9*500*79*input joules = 5.2E-5*input joules, worth of photons, would probably be as good as it gets. A vacuum arc holds offers a more promising yield in the range you want. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 01:25:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA31204; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:14:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:14:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 02:10:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2971$06cd4100$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"KLUuB2.0.Ud7.j9moq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW,Scott The use of a "vacuum" lithium vapor at microns pressure and an automotive ignition coil-capacitor and spark plug should give the 400-800 angstrom x-ray-EUV. With a pulser and electronic ignition setup you should be able to fire a standard automotive sparkplug in the low pressure lithium vapor at several hundred pulses/second. The vapor pressure of lithium at 600 C is about 100 microns, and would probably be the "cleanest" source of 400-800 angstrom photons attainable by the spark-spectra technique. Regards, Frederick pulses/second From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 05:29:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07721; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 05:23:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 05:23:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801251322.IAA28794 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:13:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Baez on Randall Mills' "New Atomic Theory" Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"-vrEs3.0.Zu1.9ppoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Reposted (with appeal for Moderator's indulgence!) from the moderated newsgroup sci.physics.research. This is a good newsgroup, and Baez is a smart math guy. -------------------------- Newsgroups: sci.physics.research From: baez math.ucr.edu (john baez) Subject: Re: Dr. Randall Mills' Grand Unified Theory "Paul A. Scott" wrote: >Has there been any independent confirmation of Dr. Mills' GUT? Doug Natelson (natelson embezzle.stanford.edu) wrote: >For reasons I won't get into, I was asked to read this book and offer >my opinion on its merits/problems. For reasons that I won't get into either, I was also asked to study Mills' theory. I was given a manuscript written by Randell L. Mills and John J. Farrell, entitled "A New Atomic Theory". Their theory seemed nutty, but it had one feature which made me willing to spend a little time on it: it made a nontrivial testable prediction. Namely, it gave a simple formula for the first ionization energy of an ion with only 2 electrons --- that is, the energy it takes to ionize the first electron. In ordinary quantum mechanics, computing this energy requires solving the 3-body problem, which can only be done numerically: one does not expect a simple closed-form answer. The formula of Mills and Farrell is as follows. Let Z be the number of protons. Then they obtain: Ionization energy = E_{coulombic} + E_{magnetic} if Z = 2 (helium) and Ionization energy = E_{coulombic} - E_{magnetic}/Z if Z > 2. Here E_{coulombic} = (Z-1) e^2 ---------------- 8 pi epsilon r E_{magnetic} = 2 pi mu e^2 hbar^2 ---------------------- Z m^2 r^3 where e = electron charge m = electron mass epsilon = permittivity of the vacuum mu = permeability of the vacuum r = "atomic radius" = a (1/(Z-1) - sqrt(s(s+1))/Z(Z-1)) and s = spin of electron = 1/2 a = Bohr radius = 4 pi epsilon hbar^2 ------------------- e^2 m These predictions match experiment up to 3 significant figures at least up to Z = 9 (fluorine). This is pretty darn good if Mills claims to be ignoring relativistic effects, which are of order alpha = 1/137. I don't know what he thinks about relativity or whether he proposes a way to correct his theory to give exact results. If his theory cannot be souped up to give results of arbitrary accuracy, it is, of course, wrong. It's interesting to compare his ideas to standard ideas regarding the first ionization energy of helium. The experimental result is .90360 Hartrees. (Don't ask me why people use Hartrees when discussing this question. I'm surprised that I ever mastered the maze of units involved in this seemingly innocent subject. A Hartree is 2 Rydbergs, and a Rydberg is about 13.6058 eV - the ionization energy of hydrogen as computed using Schrodinger's equation.) The Hartree-Fock approximation gives .861679 Hartrees. The elaborate calculation of Hylleras using trial wavefunctions gave .90324 Hartrees, and the still more elaborate calculation of Kinoshita gave .9037245 Hartrees. The above formula of Mills gives .90371 Hartrees. Mills and Farrell give a derivation of their formula starting from some rather strange physics; I'm curious as to whether some approximation method starting with Schrodinger's equation also leads to the same formula. -------------------------- Bob F. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 07:36:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25943; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:21:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:21:07 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:13:49 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980125152434783.AAA142 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"NyxkM2.0.CL6.YXroq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott is looking for a low-energy X ray source. To the best of my knowledge, and anyone here with better knowledge can correct me, EM radiation is generated whenever electrons hit an anode. I don't know if there is a lower threshold for generation, merging from EUV to gammas in a continuous spectrum. Color TV tubes generate soft x-rays with 27 kV accelerating potentials. The glass faceplate is loaded with lead to block it.Your friendly oscilloscope on the benchtop will generate x-rays, but too little to penetrate the glass. Radio tubes operated at kV plate potentials in transmitters will generate x-rays. Mills is going to great lengths to measure the 300 A radiation expected from his vapor phase reactor. The experiment is difficult because there is no window material transparent at that wavelength, and you don't want the spectrophotometer guts exposed to the reaction chamber, yet there can be no solid in the way (he does it with pinhole apertures and a pumped buffer chamber). So if you want really soft x-rays, the problem may not be in generating them, but in getting them out of the generating chamber to wherever you want them to be effective. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 07:52:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28594; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:41:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:41:08 -0800 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:44:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199801251544.QAA18161 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: biberian Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? Resent-Message-ID: <"4d_YR1.0.h-6.Jqroq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, it is a standard method in UV photo emission spectroscopy to produce UV light with a glow discharge in a low pressure helium atmosphere. However because of the wavelength you cannot find windows with a material transparent to it. Therefore people use differential pumping with two vacuum pumps separated by a diaphragm. There are several manufacturers of such equipments, but it is rather expensive. Works well. I do not think there is any simple technique to do that other than synchrotron radiation.... If you do not need a monochromated beam, and with low intensity, you might use the Bremschtralung effect as in a standard X-ray source. ******************************** Jean-Paul Biberian E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr tel (33) 660 14 04 85 ******************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 09:55:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04354; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:52:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:52:08 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:46:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd29b9$1a82a4e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ae_b3.0.u31.6ltoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Paul mentioned synchrotron radiation as a source of soft x-rays (15 - 30 ev or 800 - 400 angstroms). The synchrotron radiation can be attained with electrons "orbiting" a thin hot tungsten filament at a radius of about 2.0E-3 meters at velocity (v)in an axial magnetic field (B)with a Voltage (V): ~10,000 Volts; w = 5.645E-54*[(2*e^2*B*V)/(m^2*v)]^2 Don't think it would be "monochromatic" though. Perhaps rapidly switching the voltage (V) would be similar to an orbital transition in an atom? Let George solve for V and B. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 12:11:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19949; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:05:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:05:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34CB9104.ECCA77FE verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:22:45 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reading material References: <34CA3DC6.1246 interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k6npx2.0.Wt4.jhvoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > To vortexers with time on their hands: > > If we ever think we vortexers have a "lock" on way-out anomalous ideas, > check out the title index of the Interstellar Propulsion Society at: > > http://www.tyrian.com/IPS/TITIDX/titleidx.html > > Too bad all of these are not on-line! > > Frank Stenger Is there anything online here? It appears that all these indexes are dummies. What is the purpose of this web page? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 12:32:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06903; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:17:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:17:33 -0800 Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:17:08 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199801252017.MAA04718 slave1.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Resent-Message-ID: <"ODzfS2.0.nh1.Rtvoq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 1/20/98, Robert Eachus wrote: > Atomic hydrogen is also known as monoatomic hydrogen, hydrogen atoms not >in molecules. One of the weirdest phenomena in science is that it is >stable as a liquid (at about 17 degrees K) but burns to form H2 at the >hottest temperature of any purely chemical reaction. Bob, If this was such a well known fact in science, 1.)What was the big fuss about the sublimation of tungsten when using Brown's Gas (or Rhodes Gas or whatever). It seems to me that this would have been pointed out fairly quickly to those who were claiming "magic". 2.) How can monoatomic hydrogen be condensed into a liquid without first forming H2? > > Atomic hydrogen torches usually use an electric arc to disassociate >normal hydrogen gas into a plasma, which then recombines to get hotter >still. (SAFETY WARNING: An atomic hydrogen torch in air, or for that >matter any plasma torch in air will create HCN--hydrogen cyanide. Use a >hood and bubble the air through a mild lye solution. This also removes NOx >before you vent outside.) I've never understood the facination with atomic >hydrogen torches. In my experience any plasma torch can reach fifteen or >twenty thousand degrees Kelvin, using hydrogen as a working gas only raises >the final temperature by a few per cent. Since anything you hit with a >plasma torch decomposes into atoms, then recombines in nasty ways, why not >just keep it clean and use Argon? (I definitely recommend against nitrogen >on safety grounds, and atomic oxygen has its own nastiness.) Is it possible that this could also explain the sonoluminescence, cavitation, and "Casimir Force" phenomena which are also claiming to be OU? Is it possible that the Casimir Force in a vacuum is just the last remnants of interstitial lattice, monoatomic hydrogen from one plate or bubble wall recombining with the same in the other? > One last note, with one of these things anything in its path is either >well cooled highly conductive metal, or you are breathing it. Don't use >asbestos or ceramics on any exposed surface. Graphite is safe but doesn't >last long, and I have cut through 1/2 inch steel plates by accident. >(Cooling water pump broke, and there was a hole in the plate before we got >the torch shut down.) I used to know a welder that went by the name of "Luke Skywelder", that had a plasma torch. He never used it on any of the jobs that we worked on together, so I never did get to see the thing in action, but he did go on and on about the fourth state of matter, etc., etc.. Since he used to weld on hot days without a shirt, and would just swear alot when the slag hit him, I figured that he that he was just plain nuts. "Safety Precautions?!? Aww #$%^! Those are for GIRLS!!" he would yell as he would strike his arc. He was a total anarchist, 49 years old, with a 22-year-old, drop-dead-gorgeous-blonde girlfriend, a great big black sheepdog, and they all lived together on this 24 foot sailing boat that he would sail up to Alaska every summer to work (that's when they weren't sailing around Puget Sound totally nude in the winter). My kinda guy. I haven't seen him in a few years, but I just might have to look him up, and check out that plasma torch. -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 13:15:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27221; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:55:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:55:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:49:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd29d2$c800ab80$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"0YT4V.0.Ff6.yQwoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Michael T Huffman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch > >I used to know a welder that went by the name of "Luke Skywelder", that had >a plasma torch. He never used it on any of the jobs that we worked on >together, so I never did get to see the thing in action, but he did go on >and on about the fourth state of matter, etc., etc.. Since he used to weld >on hot days without a shirt, and would just swear alot when the slag hit >him, I figured that he that he was just plain nuts. "Safety Precautions?!? >Aww #$%^! Those are for GIRLS!!" he would yell as he would strike his arc. >He was a total anarchist, 49 years old, with a 22-year-old, >drop-dead-gorgeous-blonde girlfriend, a great big black sheepdog, and they >all lived together on this 24 foot sailing boat that he would sail up to >Alaska every summer to work (that's when they weren't sailing around Puget >Sound totally nude in the winter). My kinda guy. I haven't seen him in a >few years, but I just might have to look him up, and check out that plasma >torch. You check out the plasma torch, and I'm for checking out that 22 year-old Blonde Torch, if Bill Clinton doesn't beat me to it! :-) Regards, Frederick -Knuke > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 16:00:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17355; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:53:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:53:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CBD042.3FA7 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:52:34 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Reading material References: <34CA3DC6.1246 interlaced.net> <34CB9104.ECCA77FE@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qIKoX.0.1F4.y1zoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > (snip) > > Is there anything online here? It appears that all these indexes are dummies. What is the purpose of this web page? > Yes, Hamdi, I was disapointed with the page - it seems to be only a reference list - which might be of interest in looking up some of the items in a library if one is available. I would like to see many of them - too bad. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 16:36:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21459; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:31:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:31:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980126002930.008ee440 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:29:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans Resent-Message-ID: <"6IMUn.0.DF5.7bzoq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:20 AM 1/20/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: Scott, Browsing for possible high temperature, oxidation resistant filament candidates, I see that iridium melts at 2450 deg C (vs 3410 deg C for W and 1774 deg C for Pt) which is above your target temperature of 2000 deg C. Ir is more resistant to oxidation than Pt. Ir is, however, very expensive; $70 for a 10-cm, .15mm dia. wire. To replicate Mills' observations and reach your high OU objective, use of Ir could bypass the problems you have with W. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 18:52:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05655; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:34:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:34:50 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD29C8.D1CAD190.JoeC transmutation.com> From: Joe Champion To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: My start in transmutation Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:38:31 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"U8_b1.0.HO1.9P_oq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: With the assistance of the Internet, I decided to post the technical papers that peaked my interest in transmutation in 1989. The height was letters from a professor within the University of Washington during the 1960's. All is posted at: http://www.transmutation.com/history1.htm and http://www.transmutation.com/history2.htm Don't forget that the transmutation daughter particle program is available at: http://www.transmutation.com/download.htm Joe Champion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 20:10:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13668; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:55:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:55:45 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex Subject: Re: Baez on Randall Mills' "New Atomic Theory" Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:54:20 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ccd6af.177612380 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199801251322.IAA28794 mail.enter.net> In-Reply-To: <199801251322.IAA28794 mail.enter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7mIPh2.0.UL3.0b0pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:13:57 -0500, Robert G. Flower wrote: [snip] >It's interesting to compare his ideas to standard ideas regarding the >first ionization energy of helium. The experimental result is .90360 >Hartrees. (Don't ask me why people use Hartrees when discussing this >question. I'm surprised that I ever mastered the maze of units >involved in this seemingly innocent subject. A Hartree is 2 Rydbergs, >and a Rydberg is about 13.6058 eV - the ionization energy of hydrogen >as computed using Schrodinger's equation.) The Hartree-Fock >approximation gives .861679 Hartrees. The elaborate calculation of >Hylleras using trial wavefunctions gave .90324 Hartrees, and the still >more elaborate calculation of Kinoshita gave .9037245 Hartrees. The >above formula of Mills gives .90371 Hartrees. [snip] In his book "The Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum Mechanics", Mills gives a calculated value of 24.59 eV for the ionisation energy of Helium. Using your value of 27.212 eV for a Hartree, yields an ionisation energy of .90366 hartree. I have redone his calculation, using the most accurate info I have available, and I get .90491 hartree. I have also noticed that there appear to be various different values for the ionisation energy of hydrogen. A program I downloaded from the web gives 13.5984 eV You give a Rydberg as about 13.6058 eV I calculate 13.605698. Mills uses the value 13.589 eV (note 8 and 9 transposed) in at least two places. http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/web-elements/index-fr.html gives 13.59811 eV. So everyone seems to agree that it's about 13.6, but much more accurate seems to be a bit of a problem :). In fact, in general it appears that the measured value is somewhat less than the calculated value, with the difference being approximately 1/1800 times the energy. Could this mean that a centre of mass correction is needed (which takes into account the fact that the nucleus is not infinitely massive)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Jan 25 21:26:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23268; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:18:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:18:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:12:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2a18$f6cc2e80$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"d5aVg2.0.Nh5.vo1pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The x-ray production "efficiency" 1.1E-9*V*Z is promising for using gold at 50 volts(4.345E-6). The foremost advantage of using gold is that it can easily be thinned down to translucent sheets about 100 Angstroms thick. A 1,240 volt x-ray will only penetrate 5.0E-4 cm into aluminum before losing 1/2 of the initial intensity. For copper 1/2 intensity is lost in 7.0E-5 centimeters.Since the attenuation is proportional to the ratios of the densities of the materials, and orders of magnitude proportion to energy ratios,one would need to work with targets gossamer thin. Or Less. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 02:56:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14802; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:54:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:54:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: FEL Overview Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:31:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2a45$87fa9be0$7a83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2A0A.DB9BC3E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"2e40l2.0.Ad3.hj6pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2A0A.DB9BC3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cebaf.gov/FEL/overview.html ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2A0A.DB9BC3E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="FEL Overview.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="FEL Overview.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cebaf.gov/FEL/overview.html Modified=C077B27D452ABD0193 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD2A0A.DB9BC3E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 03:05:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA32367; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:53:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:53:31 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Free Electron Laser Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2a47$b379f200$7a83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2A0D.071B1A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Aq06y.0.fv7.gi6pq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2A0D.071B1A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://sbfel3.ucsb.edu/www/vl_fel.html ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2A0D.071B1A00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" Free Electron Laser.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" Free Electron Laser.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://sbfel3.ucsb.edu/www/vl_fel.html Modified=C01011A7472ABD01B7 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD2A0D.071B1A00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 03:06:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA32347; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:53:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:53:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Science and Technology Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:25:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2a44$c1310580$7a83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A0A.14D22D80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rUiAo3.0.Lv7.ci6pq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A0A.14D22D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cebaf.gov/scitech_text.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A0A.14D22D80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Science and Technology.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Science and Technology.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cebaf.gov/scitech_text.html Modified=A0E89FAE442ABD0101 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A0A.14D22D80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 03:09:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA15821; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:06:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:06:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:05:25 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199801261105.DAA08996 slave1.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"ZwB5t1.0.7t3.2v6pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 1/26/98 Larry Warton wrote: > The secrets of the vortex is a story of discovery, undiscovery and my >present efforts of rediscovery. In the old days, the days before >computers, there was a concept in dynamical meteorology known as negative >viscosity. -snip- Also about 20 years ago there was a well >respected investigator in meteorology who thought that the known higher >order corrections in molecular transport theory should have a counterpart >in eddy transport (another name for turbulence) theory. -snip- > Negative viscosity is a wonderful thing. Just as positive viscosity >works against us by wasting energy, negative viscosity may be used to >create energy. It is what allows tornados to continue rotating without >damping down. There is great interest in this discussion group in using >the secret of the vortex to produce free or nearly free energy. There are >some discussions here of machines developed by people such as Huffman, Clem >and others which possibly may do this. You don't actually need a vortex to >take advantage of the secret of the vortex, you just need negative >viscosity. The two essential ingredients necessary are high turbulence and >high velocity shear. > So a machine can take advantage of the secret of the vortex without >actually containing a vortex. It just has to generate negative viscosity. -snip- There is an old textbook on negative >viscosity that you could read but I don't think it would be much help. >This probably is the best place to learn about the vortex, you just to go >through a lot of non-vortex stuff to get to a small amount of actual vortex >stuff. -------------- Hi Larry, I would be interested in finding this textbook, the name of this well respected researcher, and any other references that may be pertinant to this subject. I was talking to a friend of mine who is a certified naturalist working in the marine eco-tourism industry, and he told me that he knew of some marine biology studies where certain marine species were tagged and tracked over the length of their migratory journey. He said that marine scientists were extremely puzzled by the speed at which these creatures could cover large distances. In fact, when computing their body mass, geometry, and drag resistance, they found that it would be simply impossible for these creatures to get from point A to point B in the amount of time that they were actually recorded to be doing it. Tidal currents and all of that were factored in, so they knew that that was not the cause of the increased speed. In another study that I heard about, certain sharks who were known to have this kind of travel speed were filmed, and the researchers found that the shark would open it's mouth while doing this high-speed, long distance swimming. The researchers postulated that perhaps due to the shape of the sharks' mouth (severe overbite), and the positioning of the shark's upper teeth (severe malocclusion), that the water passing over the gazillion teeth was creating a turbulent water sheet, possibly containing cavitation bubbles, that would subsequently run under the shark's lower body, reducing the drag, and allowing the shark to swim faster than normally thought possible. If this negative viscosity idea has any merit to it, it would seem to me that it would have some major applications in ships', submarines', and torpedoes' hull design, as well as the energy producing possibilities. It also seems that some studies using Schlieren photograghy would be able to tell if this was the case. I don't know if Schlieren photography was available when you were doing your studies, but it is now. There could be applications in the aeronautics and aerospace industry as well. This area of science may seem to be a bit pedestrian these days in light of some of the teleportation/antigravity/magnetic findings, but it is something that could have immediate, beneficial uses, and it is something that is fairly easy for engineers to grasp. I would think that it would also be very inexpensive to implement as well. BTW, I caught a shark once with a cane pole. I looked into it's eyes, and saw pure, stone-aged, hatred and evil. I'll never forget that look as long as I live. I got it out of the water and up along side of the boat, and while I was trying to decide whether or not I wanted that thing in the boat with me, the shark chewed through the line and got away. That was fine by me. -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 04:41:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA12602; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:26:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:26:55 -0800 Message-ID: <34CC9C32.2216 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:22:42 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex References: <199801261105.DAA08996 slave1.aa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sQF9B.0.q43.D48pq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Knuke, Larry et al! Larry Wharton wrote; > Negative viscosity is a wonderful thing. Just as positive viscosity > works against us by wasting energy, negative viscosity may be used to > create energy. It is what allows tornados to continue rotating without > damping down. Intriguing, much like Beardens description of the 'negative resistor'. The Richard Clem engine is based on an effect he witnessed while working for the city of Dallas. He noticed when a hot asphalt sprayer was shut down, that it would continue to operate for up to 30 minutes. Since asphalt at ambient temperatures is a solid, but when heated, becomes liquid, the hotter, the more liquid, thus the lessening of the viscosity...based on his observations, Clem basically copied the design and substitued cooking oil for the fluid, because it was cheap and would not break down at high temperaturs. I think this lessening of viscosity and the correlation with tornadic activity is brilliant! Good stuff Larry and Knuke! If you want to read the Clem info, it is posted at; http://keelynet.com/energy/clem1.htm and updated with http://keelynet.com/energy/clem2.htm -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 04:54:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA14818; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:40:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:40:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34CC9F55.E0B keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:36:05 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex References: <199801261105.DAA08996 slave1.aa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G-BxI3.0.Md3.tG8pq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Knuke, Larry et al! Knuke wrote; > I was talking to a friend of mine who is a certified > naturalist working in the marine eco-tourism industry, and he told me > that he knew of some marine biology studies where certain marine > species were tagged and tracked over the length of their migratory > journey. He said that marine scientists were extremely puzzled by the > speed at which these creatures could cover large distances. In fact, > when computing their body mass, geometry... Has anyone here heard of Schaubergers' 'Fish Motor'?? Walter Baumgartner has built several models and reports it to be orders of magnitude (well, maybe not that high) faster in water than any outboard or inboard motor known. It was based on how fish swim and created a kind of negative pressure that required very little energy for forward motion. Walter has now moved to Australia but I've seen the model, though not working. I'll see if I can pull out anymore information about it...there are some excellent drawings... Another thing, I can't recall the guys' name, but there was a scientist who created these flying machines that hovered around his lab...he called them 'AeroDynes'....the principle was basically in inverted teardrop, where the pointed tip faced downward and the spherical end was at the top. A high velocity fan was mounted on the top so that air was blown down over the hemisphere surface and was entrained through boundary layer drag to follow the surface, so it came off the tip in a spiral. I used to have a bad photocopy of this thing hovering behind the scientist....at the time, I was truly astounded....and guess I still am....forgot about that one....it sounds simple enough to test.... Well, guess this is a hint to pull out all that Schauberger material...Walter made the most beautiful detailed drawings and I have a few that might be worth posting on the KeelyNet site... This is an excellent thread....thanks guys, you got me going, and jaded as I am, that takes some doing.....seeya! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 05:07:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26322; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:01:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:01:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980126070104.0085f5a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:01:04 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 plans In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980126002930.008ee440 freeway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MZu_c.0.CR6.1b8pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:29 PM 1/25/98 -0500, Edwin Strojny wrote: >To replicate Mills' observations and reach >your high OU objective, use of Ir could bypass the problems you have with W. But, with Ir, it wouldn't be a replication, Ed. It's a good idea but it seems like I should continue to try to observe the Mills' effect with an experiment that is as close to his apparatus as I can make it. Of course, I have made some hopefully insignificant changes already....such as using a smaller chamber than Mills did. Also, with the sketchy information we have (and Mills continuing to ignore us!) we have no choice but to make up some of the details. The next run is going to be another hydrogen run (I don't have an Ar purifier/dryer) with no catalyst present. I will heat the filament only to 2000K as Mills says. The balance of the ~30 watts required to maintain a constant input power will come from the cartridge heater. We'll see how long it lasts then. Should happen tomorrow. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 05:09:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26632; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:04:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:04:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CCA4CE.34A0 keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:59:26 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Earth Energy Taps Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KzyuL.0.1W6.Xd8pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The following was posted on the KeelyNet-L discussion list; ----------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ken et al! Agreed. I loved your Freudian slip with this quote; > This is the proper way research projects should go... theory, > HYPNOSIS, experiment and results - then loop back around for > revisions. Precisely, HYPNOSIS, like the chickens hypnotized by the snake, we let ourselves get drawn by claims and cons; down into confusion until our time, efforts and in some cases, finances are beyond recovery. NO MORE !!! FOCUS! Take a stand and by god stick with it! Ok, I hesitated posting what some of us are planning until I could get these files posted, but they are now done. Check out; http://keelynet.com/energy/aethrtap.htm http://keelynet.com/energy/prentice.htm No one, to my knowledge has EVER tried to duplicate the Prentice patent. He clearly tells you his experiments and his results, claiming you could create a type of circulating earth current that could power a load. Remember Nathan Stubblefield....in his case, he buried dissimilar metal plates, facing each other, separated by distance. I am unclear at this moment if he strung connecting insulating wires over the distance, possibly not, though Prentice says you must (using his system). A few of us will do this project this summer. Notice he says you need a high voltage source to initialize the circulating current. We have several people in our Roundtable who have large areas of land that would let us do either 1/2 mile or 1 mile....we will videotape it and report fully on our failure...woops, damned hypnosis, SUCCESS!!! Onward and upward, we have work to do before the next millenium. --- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 05:17:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA17047; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:00:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 05:00:54 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980126065048.00860990 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:50:48 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? In-Reply-To: <199801251544.QAA18161 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"IcRdc.0.GA4.5a8pq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Fred, Mike, & Jean-Paul for suggestions. Fred, you said "The x-ray efficiency e = 1.1E-9*ZV" Is that the overall efficiency, energy-wise, of an x-ray tube operating at voltage V with anode target atomic number Z? If so, then by using 50 volts and a W target, I can get 4.1E-6 overall efficiency, which at 1 watt of electron current should then produce 1.7E12 photons/sec (if the average photon energy is ~15 eV). This sounds pretty good. The helium glow discharge is a nice idea...but it would require some doing to get the correct pressure conditions for the discharge and have a no-window path from there to the high-vacuum chamber where the target is located. Fed, why do I need thin targets for the x-ray tube? Ordinarily you let the electrons hit the surface of the anode target material and the resultant x-rays (brem) are taken off the surface. The anode target can be infinitely thick. BTW, my goal is to excite hydrogen atoms to get them to emit the Balmer and Lyman lines (which I would call L and K x-rays respectively). BTW2, it will be necessary to use photons for the excitation in this case. Our ultimate goal is an experiment to prove that the ZPF is responsible for the stability of the hydrogen ground state. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 07:14:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09352; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:57:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 06:57:12 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <2f33c398.34cca351 aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:53:00 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, little@eden.com Subject: Mills - superconductive? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"lA1862.0.rH2.6HApq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If my hypothesis is correct and cold fusion does occurs only in room temperature superconductors it seems unlikey that anything as hot as as Mills device is could be superconductive. My guess..its way to hot to be superconductive and way way to cold to invoke normal fusion. Again I state..we need to focus on superconductive processes. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 08:01:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17280; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:52:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:52:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126094915.00a9d76c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:49:15 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: OFF TOPIC - rust Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dimsx3.0.iD4.n4Bpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In my perusal of Uhlig's "Corrosion and Corrosion Control" I happened upon something that may be of interest to some...an explanation of the accelerating action that water has upon the rusting of iron. We are all familiar with the voltaic cell in which dissimilar electrodes are place in a common electrolyte. Less familiar is the "concentration cell" in which identical electrodes are placed in an electrolyte with a concentration gradient between the electrodes. A drop of water on an iron surface forms just such a cell. The two electrodes are the iron around the edge of the drop and the iron in the center of the drop...and they are shorted electrically together. The concentration gradient occurs due to differential aeration of the water. Near the edge of the drop, where the water is thin, atmospheric oxygen raises the oxygen content of the water w.r.t to the center of the drop. This creates an electrolytic cell in which the central iron is the anode and the surrounding iron is the cathode. Once started in this manner, the electrolytic action oxidizes the central iron, which shields that iron from the dissolved oxygen, further increasing the oxygen concentration gradient in the cell. The central iron continues to be oxidized by the anodic conditions and erodes away resulting in the familiar rust pit. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 08:03:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20105; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:46:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:46:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34CCAF64.1D59 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:44:36 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? References: <3.0.5.32.19980126065048.00860990 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lRL-F3.0.xv4.v-Apq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > > BTW, my goal is to excite hydrogen atoms to get them to emit the Balmer and > Lyman lines (which I would call L and K x-rays respectively). BTW2, it > will be necessary to use photons for the excitation in this case. Our > ultimate goal is an experiment to prove that the ZPF is responsible for the > stability of the hydrogen ground state. > How critical is the "target" H2 vacuum level, Scott? After reading Fred's and Jean-Paul's input it would seem to me that the most practical setup would be: target H2 easy-change H2 arc region orifice station station | | | vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv v | to v H2 target | H2 arc/dis vacuum v | pump->> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv |<------cold-trap region---->| Use an H2 arc or glow discharge in the right end of rig. A controlled H2 "leak" just downstream of the orifice plate could keep a slow sweep of clean H2 flowing to move contaminants to the pump. You could cold-trap the whole region downstream of the orifice with LN2 if that would help with the arc junk. Now, the closer you could run the arc leg pressure (vacuum) to the target pressure the bigger the orifice window. Maybe an rf discharge would be useful to limit the electrode erosion in the arc. The trick would be to get the H2 pressure for the photon path low enough for good transfer from arc to target. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 09:03:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02433; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:46:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126114627.00aa52c0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:46:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19980103155044.AAA7324 HOME> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"oVFaZ3.0.vb.PtBpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:50 PM 1/3/98 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: >I was attending some training a while back and was told by a pair of >technicians about always being careful to discharge capacitors that have >been stored for a while. They considered it common knowledge that >dangerous charges can get built up just sitting on the shelf. I tried not >to display my non-belief in their words, because I knew these men were >quite experienced. I have seen 2.5 Kv, 24 mfd. caps with a one ot three hundred volt charge on a regular basis. In fact looking for caps that wouldn't create or hold a charge was one way to find units that had been damaged in shipping. >Now, battery activity could account for some charging, but what ambient >energy source could separate substantial amounts of charges without >rectification? Ever seen an electret? If not get yourself some wax and make one. It's a fun device. The relevance here is that most "large" capacitors act like electrets. In effect, the movement of charged particles in the air past the terminals is converted into a charge. The longer that a cap has been charged in a particular direction, the greater the effect. >Maybe it is an "old technician's tale," or maybe I was being sent on a >snipe hunt. I've never made any study of it, so this is just anecdotal >corroboration. Anyone who has worked with high voltage capacitor banks will tell you the same thing. I had one flash tube setup where, when you removed the "crowbar" short--always store big capacitors shorted--you could see the needle on the attached voltmeter move. Some experimentation determined that if we put a barrier between the caps and the cooling fans for the flashtube, they charged much slower. (This was a 4 kV, 25 kJ bank...) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 09:09:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01944; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:44:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:44:14 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:39:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2a78$fe5d2040$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"8zoIf.0.BU.QrBpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 6:17 AM Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? > >Fred, you said "The x-ray efficiency e = 1.1E-9*ZV" Is that the overall >efficiency, energy-wise, of an x-ray tube operating at voltage V with anode >target atomic number Z? If so, then by using 50 volts and a W target, I >can get 4.1E-6 overall efficiency, which at 1 watt of electron current >should then produce 1.7E12 photons/sec (if the average photon energy is ~15 >eV). This sounds pretty good. That is the efficiency stated. The volts*amps energy into the anode only. The 1.1E-9 value was established with kilovolt x-rays, I don't know how well it applies at lower energies. > >Fred, why do I need thin targets for the x-ray tube? Ordinarily you let the >electrons hit the surface of the anode target material and the resultant >x-rays (brem) are taken off the surface. The anode target can be >infinitely thick. Yes. But you need a "window" for the x-rays to get into the next gas-containing chamber. With gold 100 Angstroms thick you are thinner than the wavelength of the soft (800 - 400 A) photons. :-) So why not use the window as the anode? > >BTW, my goal is to excite hydrogen atoms to get them to emit the Balmer and >Lyman lines (which I would call L and K x-rays respectively). In-u-window? :-) BTW2, it >will be necessary to use photons for the excitation in this case. Our >ultimate goal is an experiment to prove that the ZPF is responsible for the >stability of the hydrogen ground state. Interesting! Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 10:15:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18894; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:45:56 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126124554.00b8bbf0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:45:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FOehR1.0.7d4.IlCpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:52 PM 1/4/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >I don't know what the ideal percentage would be yet, but suspect that it is >less than pure, and maybe even less than 50 percent. Hmmm. You are on a slightly different track from the ones followed in the past. The idea then was to fire d+ at a bulk target (usually through a bore hole so that all neutrons were used), and to recover the energy used in accelerating the deuterons, plus the energy released by the neutron absorption, as heat. The key numbers for a non-uranium based system are: Efficiency in splitting the deuterons. Thermal efficiency of the plant. Total energy released per neutron. Neutron absorption efficiency. It is quite easy to come up with designs where the last three numbers are 25%, ~10 Mev, and 90%. The trick is to get the stipping up over 50%, without pouring a lot of energy in. > Part of a design >objective would be to make the ratio of the D cross section to other cross >sections as small as possible to avoid creating T. The trick is to give >the neutrons as many passes at their target as possible witout >disintegrating into a proton and electron, and without hitting a deuteron. For the easiest way to do this see above. The problem is "self targeting." The surface of the target gets coated with deuterium gas, and thus your primary interaction is d + d. It seems silly to find that the holy grail of hot fusion is considered a problem but it is. Deuterium deuterium reactions are in the (net) 4 MeV range, and you want at least 10. One of the best solutions I have seen was to use a liquid (molten salt) and spin it to create a depression to fire the deuterons into. The surface constantly renews itself. >The neutron hitting an H, and thus recovering the D, just gives more >holding time for the neutron. There are many design options, like using >mixtures of LiD and LiH, and Mn, for example. Another might be D2O, H2O, >and Mn in slurry form, or maybe a D and Li, or even a D, Li, and Mn hot >gass mixture. There are many possibilities. For recovering the energy you want a target that stays solid (possibly liquid, but in any case with a low vapor pressure) at high temperatures. Candidates include Lithium and other oxides. I don't know about LiF. (The oxygen is basically inert to neutrons.) >For initital tests much less than pure D2O or LiD would be fine. Don't even think it. Hydrogen is basically a poison in such a process, since it absorbs otherwise usable neutrons. But as I have said, the most work done in this area involved sub-critical fission reactors. If you use Thorium or Uranium as your target, you can get 200 MeV plus per neutron. Makes the energetics so much easier. Basically the only thing keeping these off the market is the regulatory process. (You get exactly the same licensing requirements for a 40 kW prototype as for a commerical 1300 MWe plant.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 10:38:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA32623; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:32:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:32:30 -0800 Message-ID: <34CCD6B2.4035 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:32:18 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? References: <3.0.5.32.19980126065048.00860990 mail.eden.com> <34CCAF64.1D59@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nI24x3.0.Ez7.xQDpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Earlier I wrote: > How critical is the "target" H2 vacuum level, Scott? > After reading Fred's and Jean-Paul's input it would seem to me that > the most practical setup would be: > target H2 easy-change H2 arc > region orifice station station > | | | > vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv > v | to > v H2 target | H2 arc/dis vacuum > v | pump->> > vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv > |<------cold-trap region---->| > A controlled > H2 "leak" just downstream of the orifice plate could keep a slow sweep > of clean H2 flowing to move contaminants to the pump. After a bit of lunch, I see that the controlled leak would probably need to be just UPSTREAM of the window orifice - right? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 11:38:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18476; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:36:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:36:27 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:28:55 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: went back to college and got into this. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"XiRtd1.0.EW4.rMEpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Professor Tom Cunningham Janurary 1998 From: Student: Frank Znidarsic Subject: Take home examinations Attached you will find a copy your take home examination and a copy of the Academic Integrity Policy that you requested. You will find that the examination was returned uncompleted. On January 20, 1998 you assigned, to this student, a take home examination with the question, "Who was Lorraine E. Hanna" . In an effort to complete this examination, this student spent 3 hours researching various data bases at the Stapelton Library . This student also incurred online expenses researching the issue on his at home on line account. This student also incurred transportation expenses traveling the Greater Johnstown Library researching the matter. This first examination was returned with a list of the resources that this student employed in an effort to complete the examination. On January 19, you also assigned that each class member must turn in a signed copy of the Academic Integrity Policy. I have noted that policy states that students shall not employ unauthorized assistance in the completion of take home examinations. On January 22, 1998 you assigned this student a second take home examination. This examination contained two questions, "Who was Lorraine E. Hanna?" and "What was the cause of Lorraine E. Hanna's Death?" The reason for Lorraine's death is clearly not relevant to the subject material of this course, programming in C++. It is apparent to the most naive that these exams are some sort of test to determine if students are communicating with each other. This student has also noted that the Academic Integrity Policy also refers to the "Falsifying of information" and questions the teaching of integrity by this method. I cannot expend any additional resources investigating this area. I expect that my refusal to complete this take home "examination" will not impact my grade. Frank Znidarsic cc continuing education From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 11:42:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14487; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:23:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:23:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126132416.00aa8088 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:24:16 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? In-Reply-To: <34CCD6B2.4035 interlaced.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980126065048.00860990 mail.eden.com> <34CCAF64.1D59 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"huEMW2.0.CY3.kAEpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:32 1/26/98 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >> target H2 easy-change H2 arc >> region orifice station station >> | | | >> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv >> v | to >> v H2 target | H2 arc/dis vacuum >> v | pump->> >> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv >> |<------cold-trap region---->| >> Something like this might work well. But I might have to have He for the discharge since it actually has emission lines in the desired energy range. H emission lines won't suffice to excite H atoms....hmmmm! maybe we could do something with an absorbtion measurement.... Thanks for the ideas, Vorts. This will have to incubate a while. I'll let you know when/if we get anything going. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 11:44:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19799; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:29:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:29:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126142826.00bd3920 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:28:26 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34b1b6cf.40348038 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RUQKd1.0.Gr4.DGEpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:59 AM 1/5/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Well that's the mass difference. So either Robert is wrong, or indeed >the "borrowing" is important (IOW the neutron is essentially never >really free, just hops across from one nucleus to the other), or 2.2 >MeV has to be accumulated through resonance (seems a bit of a stretch >to me though - maybe it won't really work because of this). I didn't invent it, but I have observed it. Deuterium ought to act like most other stable nucleii, but whenever you start moving them, they fall apart all over the place. Ten kilovolt deuterons is more than enough to want film badges on everyone. And again, I am not an expert on it, just enough to know when to buy more parafin blocks. But apparently the "normal" reaction is for the proton to be absorbed by a high-Z species, often in a (p,n) reaction, where the nucleii retains its atomic weight, but gets bumped one up on the periodic table. Anyway, in the early days of fusion research, an increase in neutrons was often an indication of contamination of the plasma, and a neutron burst always accompanied a catastrophic loss of containment. Note that the combination means that stripping often produces one thermal neutron, and one very high energy (order of 10 MeV) neutron. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 12:01:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24226; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:54:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:54:12 -0800 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:47:42 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: (NOT SO) OFF TOPIC - rust Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801261451_MC2-30B9-630A compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"7B3kW.0.Nw5.XdEpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little points out that rust is an electrochemical phenomenon. Bockris and Mizuno are experts on this topic. Here are few lines from the Mizuno book, Chapter 1: Bockris is an expert in corrosion and corrosion prevention, the conversion of light to electricity (photovoltaics), organic battery chemistry, and many other areas. . . . During my post doc research Bockris and I could not agree how to interpret my data, so I ended up writing a paper which came to a completely unanticipated conclusion. The subject was pitting corrosion in iron, a form of corrosion triggered by chlorine. The issues were: is the chlorine initially adsorbed onto the surface, or absorbed into the metal; and when it is adsorbed or absorbed, how far down in the metal does it penetrate. In the end, our discussion broke down, we could not agree on anything. To study the effects of corrosion, Mizuno and other researchers speed it up using powered electrolysis, that is, ordinary DC power, as opposed to the small, naturally occurring current described by Scott from the Uhlig book. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 12:08:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25911; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:04:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:37:37 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: (NOT SO) OFF TOPIC - rust Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801261441_MC2-30BD-60CD compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ZFgY5.0.eK6.7nEpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little points out that rust is an electrochemical phenomenon. Bockris and Mizuno are experts on this topic. Here are few lines from the Mizuno book, Chapter 1: Bockris is an expert in corrosion and corrosion prevention, the conversion of light to electricity (photovoltaics), organic battery chemistry, and many other areas. . . . During my post doc research Bockris and I could not agree how to interpret my data, so I ended up writing a paper which came to a completely unanticipated conclusion. The subject was pitting corrosion in iron, a form of corrosion triggered by chlorine. The issues were: is the chlorine initially adsorbed onto the surface, or absorbed into the metal; and when it is adsorbed or absorbed, how far down in the metal does it penetrate. In the end, our discussion broke down, we could not agree on anything. To study the effects of corrosion, Mizuno and other researchers speed it up using powered electrolysis, that is, ordinary DC power, as opposed to the small, naturally occurring current described by Scott from the Uhlig book. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 13:43:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07500; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:15:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:15:06 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801261105.DAA08996 slave1.aa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:13:39 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"FrlKk1.0.4r1.NpFpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In response to Michael Huffman's question: > > I would be interested in finding this textbook, the name of this >well respected researcher, and any other references that may be pertinant to >this subject. The negative viscosity book is: Physics of negative viscosity phenomena, by Victor P. Starr New York, McGraw-Hill [1968] QC189.S78 , LCCN: 68022768 I don't know the ISBN. I would guess it would be very hard to find it. I am sorry to say that I do not know any of the references for the controversy about applying molecular higher order transport theory to turbulence theory. I have been looking for them and have not yet found them. I just know of this controversy by talking to a number of semi-oldtimers in meteorology. They remember the controversy to be about 20 years ago and involving an investigator by the name of Mason but they were not sure. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 14:07:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21814; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:59:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:59:34 -0800 Message-ID: <34CD0713.226E interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:58:43 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What's cost of D2O these days? References: <3.0.1.32.19980126124554.00b8bbf0 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qX8aj.0.jK5.5TGpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > (snip) If you use Thorium or Uranium as your > target, you can get 200 MeV plus per neutron. Makes the energetics so much > easier. Basically the only thing keeping these off the market is the > regulatory process. (You get exactly the same licensing requirements for a > 40 kW prototype as for a commerical 1300 MWe plant.) > So, in summary, we humans: 1. Are half-frozen, wimpy life forms made from galactic trace elements existing at a mere 300 deg K on chemical processes involving a handfull of electron volt energy changes. 2. We would like to have unlimited energy sources that have absolutely no effect on us or our environment - even though we were created by and are sustained by an energy source free for the taking. (Call this God if you wish.) 3. We want these energy sources to have ZERO side effects even though our original source bathes us in cancer-causing radiation every day, but we have learned to live with it. 4. We would like these energy sources in order to attain even more god-like control over our environment than we already have - even though many of the best candidate systems are rejected because we feel ourselves too unstable to control them. OK, I'll buy into this but we humans are really a piece of work! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 14:07:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22699; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:02:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:02:09 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:57:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2aa5$6af8c2a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TSgYv.0.KY5.RVGpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A suitable Alpha particle (ionized helium)source can be used on one side of a window in a chamber containing H2. The alphas need not pass through the window,but only provide the required photons (15 - 30 ev) out the hydrogen side. Absorption and scattering of the (delta rays) up to 2 kev in the window material and recombination excitation in the material(66,000/cm/alpha in air)should provide the required number of photons for the H2 experiments. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 14:37:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01761; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:33:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:33:57 -0800 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:33:45 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199801262233.OAA24390 slave2.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Secrets of the Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"iO81l1.0.QR.IzGpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Larry for the info. As you may be able to tell, I am about five days behind in the e-mail reading, and I've been jumping back and forth depending on the subject topics. I know that there are resources on the net that specialize in finding out of print material, so I will try there. As for the rest, I'll do do searches once I get familiar with the terminology. Perhaps there are some people who are doing this research today in other fields who are just using slightly different terms. This happens all the time. Thanks again -Knuke > > Physics of negative viscosity phenomena, by Victor P. Starr > New York, McGraw-Hill [1968] > QC189.S78 , LCCN: 68022768 > >I don't know the ISBN. I would guess it would be very hard to find it. I >am sorry to say that I do not know any of the references for the >controversy about applying molecular higher order transport theory to >turbulence theory. I have been looking for them and have not yet found >them. I just know of this controversy by talking to a number of >semi-oldtimers in meteorology. They remember the controversy to be about >20 years ago and involving an investigator by the name of Mason but they >were not sure. > >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 15:31:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00650; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:24:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:24:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126172353.00aa4ec4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:23:53 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? In-Reply-To: <01bd2aa5$6af8c2a0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ktb2c2.0.y9.LiHpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 14:57 1/26/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >A suitable Alpha particle (ionized helium)source can be used on one side of >a window in a chamber containing H2. Fred, you have the most ingenious ideas! Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 15:32:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29978; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:21:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:21:09 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:10:32 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Maybe I can put diversity at work for me not against me! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"7yzVo.0.CK7.TfHpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Human Resources Department Jan. 26, 1998 NASA Marshall Spaceflight Center Huntsville Alabama 35812 Greetings: I am interested an a temporary intern position at the Marshall Spaceflight center. I am particularly interested in the work that is going on at the Advanced Concepts Office. I believe that their gravitational project will result in the development of new sources of energy. I am currently registered a part time post graduate student. During the past year I have completed or am currently enroled in: nuclear physics, modern physics, optics, thermo physics, programming C++, and programming Java. I am over 40 years old and come out of industry not out of academia. I have also published papers in the field of gravitational energy extraction. I believe that my age and background would add to the diversity of your programs. My resume is attached. Please consider me. Frank Znidarsic PE 481 Boyer St. Johnstown, Pa. 15906 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 15:41:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20294; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:37:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:37:03 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126173758.00a9c398 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:37:58 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: negative viscosity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5UElY2.0.xy4.TuHpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry, In electric arcs it is often said that they have negative resistance characteristics but this refers only to a negative slope in the i-V plot that occurs at certain current levels. The actual value of the arc resistance always is positive...it's just that over a narrow range of currents, increasing current causes a decreasing arc voltage. I was wondering if your negative viscosity phenomena was similar. ...or have folks actually observed TRUE negative values for viscosity!? That would mean that instead of a drag force that retarded the motion of an object thru the viscous media, you would have a PUSHing force that helped the object along thru the viscous media!!!!! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 15:44:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02578; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:35:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:35:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CD1D70.73D5 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:34:08 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? References: <3.0.5.32.19980126065048.00860990 mail.eden.com> <34CCAF64.1D59 interlaced.net> <3.0.1.32.19980126132416.00aa8088@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PxbRC.0.3e.hsHpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 13:32 1/26/98 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > >> target H2 easy-change H2 arc > >> region orifice station station > >> | | | > >> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv > >> v | to > >> v H2 target | H2 arc/dis vacuum > >> v | pump->> > >> vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv|vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv > >> |<------cold-trap region---->| > >> > > Something like this might work well. But I might have to have He for the > discharge since it actually has emission lines in the desired energy range. > H emission lines won't suffice to excite H atoms....hmmmm! maybe we could > do something with an absorbtion measurement.... > I see your point, Scott, but a higher energy process in the source region need not be limited to H2 emission frequency - bremschtralung effects as mentioned by Jean-Paul might not be too hard to get. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 16:44:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04903; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:40:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:40:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126194034.00b606b0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:40:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Stripping and flipping Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yIbvO3.0.MC1.xpIpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: (While writing this article, I found a neat paper on the proposed uses of high-powered linacs: http://www.cern.ch/Linac96/Proceedings/Monday/MO102/Paper.html among other things it discusses using deuterons to create neutrons, and sub-critical nuclear reactors. If you guys are serious about following up on this stuff, here is hardware that you can build in your basement. ;-) That should really be a half-smiley, the front-ends of the high energy accellerators are basement sized projects, and would generate about a 100 keV beam. I said: >> Even though the numbers seem to indicate otherwise, the proton and >>neutron in deuterium are very loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin >>of one of the nucleons, the deuteron falls apart. At 06:16 PM 1/6/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >I have a real interest in what "the deuteron falls apart" means above. >Does it mean fission? It doesn't seem like the energy to flip a proton >relative to its bound neutron would require anywhere near the 2.3 MeV >relased upon the original D formation. Since the neutron is neutral, >rapidly flipping the spin of the proton sounds trivial. Is there a spin >related binding energy there? Deuterium has spin 1, since if the two bosons have unaligned spins, the total binding energy is (slightly) negative. That is what I meant by falls apart, the particles are unbound. >It strikes me as very strange that 10-20 KeV kinetic energy could overcome >the coulomb barrier between D and a heavy element nucleus, or even Li, to a >sufficient depth for a sufficient duration to permit significant proton >tunneling into the secondary nucleus. Has the stripping phenomenon been >fully understood with conventional theory? Define "conventional" in this context. When I was learning this stuff, it was still being discovered. It agrees with the S-matrix model of how the strong force works, but to understand what happens you have to look at the quark model of deuterium. The deuterium nucleus looks like a dumbbell, containing six quarks, three up and three down. But the pion exchanges which bind the nucleus together change which end of the dumbbell contains the proton. (Or the better way to look at it, how the charge is distributed in the nucleus.) What apparently happens is that the uncharged end of the dumbbell can get very close to another nucleus--it is attracted both by second order coulomb effects and by the strong force. If and when the bond breaks though, it is often the neutron that breaks free, and the proton is absorbed. But again, the wrong way to look at it--pion exchanges with the target nucleus both cause the breakup and determine the makeup of the unabsorbed particle. So you need both the physical model of the deuterium nucleus--one of the largest, but only in one dimension--and the quark/pion model which says that any charged pion interaction between a deuteron and another nucleii must cause the deuteron to decompose. >I am interested in finding literature relating to any of the above. Any >suggestions appreciated. Lots of literature, but lots of it is sort of underground or in passing in other articles. Physics journals, for that matter all scientific journals do not like to publish what they regard as negative results. Most of the good documentation of what happens when you intentionally or accidently bombard a target with deuterons, I saw in "hoped to be published" preprints that never showed up in referred journals, or in retractions. With the web, that problem should stop happening, and it is great for finding data. Here are stripping/self-targeting events with a 25 kV deuteron beam: # Zelenskii VF, Rybalko VF, Morozov AN, Tolstolutskaya GD, Kulish VG, Pistryak SV, Martynov IS; Vopr. At. Nauki Tekh., Ser.: Fiz. Radiats. Povrezhdenii Radiats. Materialoved. 1990(1)(52) 65. (in Russian). "Experiments on cold nuclear fusion in Pd and Ti saturated with deuterium by ion implantation". ** Pd and Ti targets were loaded with deuterium by means of a D2+ ion beam at 25 keV, 30-40 microamp, at 100K. The loaded targets were then warmed up to 1200-1300K and emissions monitored: neutrons by a boron-containing detector, charged particles (cp's) by a surface barrier detector, and gas emissions with masses 1..6 by a mass spectrometer (MS), to detect possible production of (3)He, T, protons. Another neutron monitor was placed at 4 m from the experiment, to monitor the background. Neutron emission intensity depended on the temperature: for Pd, they were max. at 100-400K and 900-1300K, for Ti at 100-300K and 600-1200K, with highs up to twice background, meaning about 100 n/s. Cp's were observed only during charging, i.e. these must have been from self-targeting. MS detected no masses in the range 1..6 during warming up. The authors conclude that dd-fusion occurred and point to fractofusion as the likely mechanism. Note that fractofusion is another version of the same deuterium song. And incidently, remember all the "cluster fusion" hoopla that turned out to be self-targeting of deuterium? The results only looked anomalous to someone with no experience with deuteron beams: Beuhler RJ, Friedlander G, Friedman L; Phys. Rev. Lett. 68 (1992) 2108. Erratum: "Cluster-impact fusion". ** This erratum retracts the authors' 1989 claim of cluster impact fusion. A number of others have pointed out that the results are likely due to contamination with smaller clusters and therefore higher energies, but until this erratum the present authors have claimed to have excluded such contamination. They did however, check this possibility and now find it true. Therefore, they revise the CIF rate downward by at least 2 orders of magnitude. Further work is in progress. ------------------------- Beuhler RJ, Friedlander G, Friedman L; Phys. Rev. Lett. 63 (1989) 1292. "Cluster-impact fusion". ** Singly-(+)-charged clusters of D2O of from 25-1300 molecules in size were shot at TiD with an energy of 325 keV and some fusion was observed. The primary signature of the fusion was protons at 3.0 MeV from the reaction D + D --> H + T, the best yield being from clusters of about 200 molecules. The fusion is assumed to be due to compressional heating of the top 10 or so layers of TiD. "Cold fusion" is not mentioned but Jones + Koonin (Nature) is cited, a bit free of context. This paper may contribute to clearing up what is (?) happening within the micro-cracks assumed in the fracto-theory. ------------------------- Carraro C, Chen BQ, Schramm S, Koonin SE; Phys. Rev. A42 (1990) 1379. "Estimates of cluster-impact fusion yields". ** Cluster impact fusion has some strange properties, such as a constant rate with varying cluster size between 100 and 300 D2O's, at constant cluster energy. This means, after all, a decreasing energy per D atom in the whole cluster. The authors address the questions of thick-target yield, knock-on effects, and thermal spikes. They also attempt to simulate the process. Each model fails by many orders of magnitude. The authors consider that the effect may be due to experimental artifacts such as, e.g., single-molecule impurity in the beam. The effect itself is not doubted. Jan-90/Aug-90 Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 17:14:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18300; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:07:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:07:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:05:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801270105.TAA14126 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: low energy x-ray tube? To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"MdM8M.0.rT4.BDJpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 28, 1998 Scott, you wrote: > >I'm looking for a photon source with maximum intensity in the 15-30 eV >range. That's roughly 400 - 800 A ...i.e. extreme UV or soft x-rays. Does >anybody know of anything that emits in this wavelength/energy range? I noticed some time ago that shutting off fluorescent lighting left a faint light haze on an unused green phospher monitor screen that gradually faded in a dark room. On your question, I looked up fluorescent lighting on a hunch. The fluorescent tube emits excited mercury radiation of 253.7 nanometers which lights up the phospers in the tube. Enough radiation leaves the tubes and were strong enough to excite the green phospers in the shut off monitor behind the glass face. Perhaps jiggling with a fluorescent tube type (or a neon tube type) design sans phosphers and another emitter beside mercury and varied voltages should give you what you need at low cost. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 17:37:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21527; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:30:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:30:47 -0800 (PST) From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <34CE047D.7581 pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:59:57 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic win 95 References: <1.5.4.32.19980122150743.00697818 bahnhof.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n6Djf1.0.DG5.4ZJpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Get a Mac! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 17:40:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17434; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:34:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:34:27 -0800 Message-Id: <01BD2B0F.F3D57B80 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp> From: Melvin Miles To: "'Vortex'" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:40:13 +-900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA17398 Resent-Message-ID: <"1j-7b1.0.KG4.YcJpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is the latest episode in my efforts to have my reply to Jones and Hansen published by the J. Physical Chemistry. Also emailed January 27, 1998 Dr. Melvin H. Miles The Institute of Applied Energy New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory 3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan 81-11-898-6391 - Phone 81-11-898-6390 - Fax miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - E-mail Fax Cover Sheet DATE: January 27, 1998 TIME: 9:30 a.m. TO: Dr. Mostafa A. El-Sayed PHONE: 404-894-0293 Editor-in-Chief FAX: 404-894-0294 The Journal of Physical Chemistry FROM: Dr. Melvin H. Miles RE: JP 961751 (Miles) Number of pages including cover sheet: 1 Message: Dr. El-Sayed: I really thought that this matter concerning my manuscript (JP 961751J) was settled when I left for Japan last October. I do not even have a copy of this manuscript or the disk with me here in Japan. I can see no valid reason for your request for a new manuscript since there are no changes. I simply wanted a few comments added as a final response to the new comments by Jones and Hansen. There surely must be a simpler way to do this. My half page should follow the new comments by Jones and Hansen rath er than being a footnote to my paper. However, I am willing to have it published either way, but I cannot send you a new manuscript. I hope this can be resolved without undo further delays to the publication of my manuscript. It would not be easy for me to track down my manuscript and the disk in California while I am still in Japan. Furthermore, my time is very limited here at the N HE Laboratory, hence I want to concentrate fully on my new cold fusion experiments. Sincerely, Dr. Melvin H. Miles Guest Researcher, NHE - NEDO From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 18:09:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23367; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:06:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:06:59 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Radiation Absorption and Shielding. Bragg-Kleeman Rule etc. Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:03:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2ac7$b7473e80$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0092_01BD2A8D.0AE86680" Resent-Message-ID: <"PRS7-3.0.zi5.15Kpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01BD2A8D.0AE86680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www-chne.unm.edu/chne/HLTHPHYS/RADABSOR.HTM ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01BD2A8D.0AE86680 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Radiation Absorption and Shielding.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Radiation Absorption and Shielding.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www-chne.unm.edu/chne/HLTHPHYS/RADABSOR.HTM Modified=40DDEF73C72ABD012E ------=_NextPart_000_0092_01BD2A8D.0AE86680-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 18:28:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00455; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:23:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:23:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980126212212.00b6d260 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:22:12 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: D2O Stripping Reactor Economics Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5kIax3.0.07.2KKpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:18 AM 1/8/98 -0900, Horace Heffner wrote: >>I think the hidden problem with your proposal (if there is one), is >>the assumption of 1% plant efficiency. Not a problem, but a trade-off with beam energy... >No proposal, just kicking around ideas and numbers to see if it can go >anywhere here (as usual.) The stripping effect has the advantage of being >well established as (1) real and (2) potentially robust, but the >disadvantages of (3) having already been examined and rejected on economic >grounds and (4) still producing as much radiactivity and waste as hot >fusion. (No good for amateurs like me to experiment with it.) On the other >hand, if we managed to soup it up here somehow, like by pre-exciting the >nucleus by NMR prior to the stripping collision or some other wild idea, >then the result might be certainly *no worse than hot fusion*, which relies >on neutron production and Li targeting, and may be much more feasible and >timely. Anything has to be better than what the tokamak mafia are currently proposing! Seriously, dt fusion results in one 14 MeV neutron per reaction producing 17 MeV. This is ten times nuclear fission plants. We are talking here about one neutron absorbed per 10+ MeV produced. Even if there is a 10% leakage, we are at fission levels. >Well, here are some wild-eyed brainstorming thoughts about that: > >(a) one of the problems with the beam approach is achieving high beam >density. This is partially due to the need for high vacuum to prevent >electron back flow and arcing, etc. One remedy for this might be to >operate with a very fast positive pulse designed to cut off prior to the >peaking of the electron return cascade, with a delay until the cascade is >quenched. Still would have to operate with a mean free path about the >distance between plates, but the distance between plates would be less than >by other alternatives, so gas density could be a bit higher. I don't understand this, but 100 mA at 100 kV is routine... >(b) The stellerator, or desk top fusor, or other old reactor designs might >work if scaled up massively. There has been some examination of this the >last few years I think. Actually, scaling up magnetic mirrors is the right approach. Most of their loss is through the end caps, so scaling linearly reduces losses linearly. >(b) Manganse is a conductor, so might be used as a plate material, or as a >central ball or mesh in a fusor, etc, and thus double as an energy >producer. There may be other better targets, but hopefully nothing as >awful as U238. If you really think U238 is awful, then go with Th232. More stable, and less daughter neutrons. You either get fission from high energy neutrons or you get energy from the n, double beta transition to U233, which can then be fissioned by thermal neutrons. But the whole idea is to have a neutron economy which eats neutrons, unlike a conventional fission plant. >(c) Speaking of U238, it should be possible to alternate layers of Li7 and >U238, using the lithium reaction to multiply neutrons, and the U238 layers >to speed up the thermal neutrons form the Li7 reactions. Could wrap the >layers into a spherical shape and put a fusor or other neutron source in >the middle to start the ball rolling. These are referred to either as thermonuclear devices or H-bombs. They are very efficient energy producers, but should be reserved for circumstances where you need lots of radiant energy in a short pulse. ;-) >(c) If stripping occurs at 10k, then the number of collisions per deuteron, >plus the energy per collision could be stepped up by bumping the pulse up >to a large value, like 3 million volts. Might get close to 100 percent >strippping. All the energy lost to Brehmstahlung etc. can get recycled, so >it might be possible to operate at 0.1 percent efficiency? Correct. I think that various projects came out a little higher when U238 was the planned target, around 8 MeV for most efficient results, but it has been a while. >(d) We could look for high *proton* cross section targets, as these should >tend to strip the protons from the deuterons better? Al27 + p --> Si28 is the one I have seen suggested. There are others that are better at lower energy, the advantage of this one is that an aluminium target is great for heat conduction and low vapor pressure. >(e) For that matter, there is nothing wrong with the whole deuteron being >swallowed either. (Some real fusion won't hurt the numbers.) > >(e) Could build the reactor in the form of a kind of random cyclotron, and >simply let internal drifting deuterons get accelerated in opposing >directions across the D gap. There would be a multiplicity of spiral paths, >many colliding head-on. Collect energy from the top and bottom plates of >the D's. Would need some kind of ionizing device (e.g. laser) to start the >process. Doesn't sound like it would work, but it's cool anyway. Might be >just as effective to apply radio frequency HV to a quartz tube with D2 >inside. This is pretty much the Migma design. >(f) If H3 (tritium) really does have a non-zero thermal neutron absorbtion >cross section, a sufficiently large volume of H3 will perpetuate any >neutron flux within it and perpetually generate energy in violation of the >first law of thermodynamics. (Not holding my breath on that one.) Neither am I, since even if it were a real energy source, it would be dominated by d + t --> He4 + n or n + t --> He4 + e-, both of which do produce energy. >(g) If flipping the proton with respect to the neutron works, then sending >high energy deuterons through alternating magnetic fields (a wiggler) or >even alternating magnetic and electrostatic fields (a quadrupole wiggler) >might do the trick. It would not take any energy out of the beam, so there >still would be energy recovery, plus stripping possibilities, etc., at the >target. I don't know about this one. The stripping and self-targeting reactions have high cross sections because deuterium just doesn't want to exist. But you have to cover that energy loss. >(h) Rotate the deuteron inside the atom electrostaticaly prior to the >stripping collision (as per the prior electron capture discussion.) Easiest is to allow for a spin-exchange reaction between the deuteron and nucleii. If you can capture the neutron or proton and flip the spin in one strong force action, you increase the cross section. >(i) Use NMR to > >(j) accelerate the deuterons in clumps, small ice clusters, water droplet, >or H2O+ or H3O+ for example, to increase likelyhood for D-D reaction. Oh, no, not cluster fusion again!!! ;-) >(k) load the target with deuterium (ala Kasagi, Kamada, etc.) Then what do you shoot with? Not a dumb question, self-targeting d-d reactions may sound like what the doctor ordered, but it is impossible to get a working energy budget that way. Using tritium as either source or target helps, especially if you can handle those fast neutrons reasonably. >(l) excite a D2O steam/water interface with HV HF, one electrode in steam, >the other being the water. > >(m) increase cost/benefit by using windmill or off-peak or sporadic energy >to store energy by exciting cobalt or other intermediate isotopes with the >neutrons frm stripping. Then use Co, etc., for heat generation, or in >batteries, later. Why bother? This is one of those baby with the bath water problems. Think of all those "high-level radioactive wastes" sitting in pools at nuclear power plants. Real separation techniques can split out the few medium life species responsible for 99% of the radiation after say 10 years, and the remaining "waste" can be reused as fuel. The problem with this approach is the fanaticism about Pu239. The simple solution is to ensure the presence of enough Pu240 by high burn-up rates. Separating Pu239 from Pu240 is much harder than separating U235 from U238. But mining nuclear waste for say Strontium-90 can produce nice nuclear batteries. Sr90 decays by emitting a half MeV beta particle (electron), with a half life of 28+ years. Perfect for powering consumer electronics... >(n) stripping may not have been economical when analysed before. However, >if we suddenly fiind ourselves in a situation where we can not burn >hydrocarbons, the sky is the limit on the fuel cost. It ALWAYS comes out as a good choice compared to hydrocarbons. Government policy is what decides between sub-critical nuclear plants of one kind or another, pie-in-the-sky fusion, and various kinds of fission plants. (MSRs are much better than HTGRs which are better than BWRs which are slightly better than PWRs. About half the nuclear plants in this country are PWRs, half BWRs, with I think one HTGR still running (Fort St. Vrain). LMFBRs are disasters, and fortunately none were ever built here. The French have some. The last graphite reactor in this country was shut down after Chernobyl...) >Well that's all I can think of now. Don't think there are any real winners >in the bunch, but if it gets anybody thinking it was worth the typing. When nuclear power is needed in space, we will see what happens then. My guess is that one sort or another of sub-critical reactor will be the big win. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 18:34:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27145; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:33:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:33:08 -0800 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:32:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801270232.UAA00934 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: off topic(?) Re: About your brain .... In general To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: herman antioch-college.edu Resent-Message-ID: <"IQwql3.0.-d6.YTKpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 28, 1998 John, & Vortex, In my student days, I have thought about this teaching - learning process that one goes through each generation to carry foward and to add to the knowledge base that supposedly characterises 'civilizations'. It took too much time just to get to an uneven basic level for an individual to become half-way competant to survive. I felt that this learning process, always through the bottleneck of the five senses, was a waste. Generally, is it not more efficient if an appropriate knowledge-base, formatted in the brain's "language" and acceptably retained in memory, can be inputted directly to the brain by apropriate electrical impulses through an interface that simulate the five senses? Perhaps in less than a month, or less, an individual picks up knowledge what it takes twenty years of current schooling schedule to learn. Nice, efficient, economical. Plenty of time to digest and pick up more and enjoy a perpective on life. All this before puberty, not just before senescence. Have there been any research done along this line in your work? -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 19:11:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06222; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:01:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:01:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Reflection and Transmission by Colloidal Metals Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:49:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2ace$31ca1a00$bfa6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A93.856B4200" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"SXE9C1.0.8X1.HuKpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A93.856B4200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.sst.ph.ic.ac.uk/photonics/EELS/ref.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A93.856B4200 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Reflection and Transmission by Colloidal Metals.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Reflection and Transmission by Colloidal Metals.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.sst.ph.ic.ac.uk/photonics/EELS/ref.html Modified=E0405B21CE2ABD0152 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD2A93.856B4200-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 19:32:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10361; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:28:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:28:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: EUV Satellite Probe, 70 to 720 Angstroms (17.22 ev to 177.14 ev) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:23:29 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2ad2$f02e3220$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BD2A98.43CF5A20" Resent-Message-ID: <"DN_9i2.0.nX2.PHLpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BD2A98.43CF5A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://alcatraz.cea.berkeley.edu/~science/data/ps/papers/sci_archive_pubs_pa pers_721_721.txt ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BD2A98.43CF5A20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="sci_archive_pubs_papers_721_721.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="sci_archive_pubs_papers_721_721.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://alcatraz.cea.berkeley.edu/~science/data/ps/papers/sci_archiv= e_pubs_papers_721_721.txt Modified=3D0053B9FBD12ABD01C0 ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BD2A98.43CF5A20-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 20:01:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12120; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:40:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:40:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Teaching.. off topic(?) your brain In-Reply-To: <199801270232.UAA00934 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"PbLa.0.Iz2.tSLpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Akira and Vo., This whole area has been a big part of my life. Both myself and my father have taught, he professionally. See notes; Again this is, necessarily, brief: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > January 28, 1998 > > John, & Vortex, > > In my student days, I have thought about this teaching - learning > process that one goes through each generation to carry foward and to > add to the knowledge base that supposedly characterises > 'civilizations'. The MAIN key to teaching is the TEACHER! > appropriate knowledge-base, formatted in the brain's "language" and > acceptably retained in memory, can be inputted directly to the brain by > apropriate electrical impulses through an interface that simulate the > five senses? This is a fallacy. There is no more powerful sorter and pattern recognition system than the brain. > Have there been any research done along this line in your work? Many have looked for a 'short cut'. This is a bass-ackwards way to look at it. Teaching one's self to learn is paramount, and teachers to teach this are few and far between in 'formal schools'. Many non formal schools work toward this. Some of my work, and work I have followed: Extracting information FROM the brain to see what is going on. We can determine, for example, by the use of EEG methods, and not the usual medical methods, some of the following: Rate of processing Some types of tasks, ie., the subject is doing one of 4 previously identified tasks All of these are mental tasks; a] rotating visualization of solid object b] counting backward by 3s from 1,000 c] writing a letter to Grandmother d] singing a song Some of what I have done: Input by different than classical sensory methods so the deaf can head and the blind read. No one seems to care enough to fund legitimate body of work, although I and others have quite clear routes of exploratory mapped out. Allow two humans to link via Visually Evoked cortical Response ... or VER, for short. There! I finally said it in public forum. There is every clear evidence such a link can serve as 'training wheels' and then the electrooptical 'tool' can be removed... and it is possible a link can remain. This work has been limping along for over 10 years. The key and ques for human perception are rich and varied. The APPLICATION of them is, as far as published and popular work goes, horribly bothched. One example: This requires a knowledge and willingness to understand some of the history and ethics of science, and in this case the 'end product' of the science is the acquistion and interpretation of human biological signals from the brain. This is a very brief run down of one example: The accepted premise: it is a given in the literature the bandwidth for carrying information of human EEG is 1 to 1.5 cycles per second. Really?!? a] 1920 or so electronics and amplification by vacuum tubes and subsequent recording by means of pen traces is 'not too bad' b] engineers and others let physiologists know there are new tools they can use to analyse EEG. c] now we don't have to count signal traces by hand, we can use FILTERS to separate them out into 'little pots' or groups. d] phyisos say "How grand" e] 1920 to 1950 the filters and amplifiers grow, mature. A typical EEG filter might have a 'Q' of 10. For a rough rule you can say after a signal of 10 cycles per second, cps, of say 10 volts AC, peak to peak, or p-p, is REMOVED from a higher order band pass filter, it will take about 10 periods to fall to zero. One second ... Hmm! f] The DIGITAL age comes to us. The software and the digital folks say "Hey look, why mess around with 'finicky and uncooperative ANALOG components and circuits'? We will do the method or process DIGITALLY!" The physios and analysts say "Great.... what do we need to do this?" g] The S and Ds say "Let us know the MATHMATICAL transfer function of the filter... and we will cast it is code." So all parties go for this and LOW and BEHOLD ... The basic transfer function ... 10 cycle decay time ... is faithfully reproduced. We now have a precision screwdriver to hammer in the nails. It is now nearly the year 2,000 ... and the accepted BW for information is .... 1 to 1.5 cps!! Amazing! The foregoing is the tip of the iceberg. To make the VER based Brain Actuated Control work one of the main keys was to speed up the analysis. The bottle neck was a low pass filter which exhibited 90 minus phase shift, or phase lag, and -6 dBel roll off. I said "So we need a fast low pass filter.. right?" To make a long story short the basic stock answer was "You cannot have faster roll off and less lag because these are mathmatically exclusive terms." I made such a filter and the two key PhDs said, respectively "You are dangerous, don't touch a thing and put it in the system." "You are cheating." I felt I had done well. I try my best to be a dangerous cheater. J > > -AK- > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 20:03:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15634; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:00:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:00:15 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <2248cb4a.34cd596e aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:50:04 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: capacitors Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"s8_Ub3.0.1q3.5lLpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anyone who has worked with high voltage capacitor banks will tell you the same thing. I had one flash tube setup where, when you removed the "crowbar" short--always store big capacitors shorted--you could see the needle on the attached voltmeter move. Some experimentation determined that if we put a barrier between the caps and the cooling fans for the flashtube, they charged much slower. (This was a 4 kV, 25 kJ bank...) Robert I. Eachus ............................................... I have worked with may capacitors. None tend to build a charge from nothing. Most will RECOVER some charge after being discharged. This charge leaks out of the dielectric back onto the plates. This effect was of some concern in the utility industry. Long high voltage insulated cables tend also to recover some charge after being disconnected and discharged. I can't remember but I believe that some one some where was killed by this recovered charge. From a cable on a reel if my memory serves me correctly. Nothing OU here just charge leakage. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 20:39:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19968; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:29:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:29:17 -0800 (PST) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:12:13 -0800 Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Message-ID: <19980126.201223.12158.4.tv juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980126114627.00aa52c0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4,6,8-14,17-22,24-26,28-32 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"l18451.0.wt4.RAMpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:46:27 -0500 "Robert I. Eachus" writes: >Robert I. Eachus said: > Ever seen an electret? If not get yourself some wax and make one. >It's a fun device. The relevance here is that most "large" capacitors >act like electrets. In effect, the movement of charged particles in the >air past the terminals is converted into a charge. The longer that a cap >has been charged in a particular direction, the greater the effect. What is the best material and method for creating an electret ? Would plexiglass work as well or better than wax ? Are you saying that an electret with metal plates on both sides would buid up charge and then could be discharched repeatedly ? What is the source of energy ? > Anyone who has worked with high voltage capacitor banks will tell >you the same thing. I had one flash tube setup where, when you removed >the "crowbar" short--always store big capacitors shorted--you could see >the needle on the attached voltmeter move. Some experimentation >determined that if we put a barrier between the caps and the cooling fans for the >flashtube, they charged much slower. (This was a 4 kV, 25 kJ bank...) Why do you think the barrier had this effect ? Air movement ? Magnetic field ? Was this fan on at the time ? Tim Vaughan ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 20:54:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA30336; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:46:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:46:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34CD5912.3A6 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:48:34 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Brodzinski, Bass, Fox, Jin: testing CG thorium transmutation Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------201130005BFD" Resent-Message-ID: <"LRpqX1.0.sP7.HQMpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------201130005BFD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: LANL "LENT-nix" Self-Deception? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:56:05 -0800 From: rl_brodzinski ccmail.pnl.gov (Ronald L Brodzinski) To: "Thomas N. Claytor" , Scott Little , Robert Bass CC: Flavio Fontana , Peter Glueck , Rich Murray The method of GRS you describe will not produce any quantitative results. It is NOT an appropriate procedure to use here. I absolutely fail to understand how you can completely disregard logical scientific approaches and results whenever they don't suit your purpose. Your conclusion that the chemical analysis of the thorium in the before and after solution negates the gamma-ray spectroscopy results is a non-sequitur. It's apples and oranges. There is no relationship between the two different results. --------------201130005BFD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from pahrump.com (root pahrump.com [205.226.146.2]) by slovakia.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12866 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from rbrtbass.pahrump.com (digital04.pahrump.com [205.226.146.153]) by pahrump.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA03004; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:29:56 -0800 From: "Robert Bass" To: "Thomas N. Claytor" , "Ronald Brodzinski" , "Scott Little" Cc: "Flavio Fontana" , "Peter Glueck" , "Rich Murray" Subject: LANL "LENT-nix" Self-Deception? Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:23:58 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd2ab1$7aaedca0$9c92e2cd rbrtbass.pahrump.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD2A6F.3AB1A8E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD2A6F.3AB1A8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: LANL "LENT-nix" Self-Deception? A. Is rumor that Dr. Thomas N. Claytor of LANL tested the CG's LENT-1 reactor and concluded that "nothing happened" correct? B. Is his verbal comment that Gamma Ray Spectroscopy of undissolved Thorium Nitrate (before dissolving and processing) and the dried-out precipitate of the post-processing solution were "identical" really indicative that "nothing happened"? Comment by Bob Bass: Normally I would consider it unethical to comment on an unpublished "report." However, Rich Murray has posted the comment that Dr. Claytor at Los Alamos National Lab (LANL) had tested the Cincinnati Group (CG) Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) process in one of their LENT-1 Reactor Kits and found that "nothing happened." Although I had earlier discussed this on the phone with Dr. Claytor at length, I had advised him to continue to get to the bottom of the matter by "a complete Mass Balance" study, including quantitative chemical assays, mass spectroscopy, neutron activation analysis (to discriminate between different isotopes of the same element), etc. Dr. Claytor had told me that he would "eventually" produce a written report, but sounded non-committal as to whether or not the mass-spec etc. would be done. Rich Murray has never heard ONE WORD from me about anything at LANL done by Dr. Claytor!!! Therefore, Dr. Claytor must have told someone else who told Murray, because this posted rumor certainly did not come from me! I hope that it is not true that Dr. Claytor has jumped prematurely to a conclusion based upon inadequate data or upon a misinterpretation of Gamma Ray Spectroscopy (GRS), because I have just learned some facts about GRS which makes me believe that if LANL has concluded that "nothing happened" it could be accidental Self-Deception! I certainly do not know nearly as much about GRS as either Dr. Ron Brodzinski at PNNL or even Scott Little at the Austin IAS (who came out with a plausible idea for definitive detection of Th_232 by GRS that was soon shown _quantitatively_ by Ron Brodzinski to be overly optimistic and actually unfeasible). I shall send copies of this to both Ron Brodzinski, Tom Claytor and Scott Little in hopes of being corrected if I say anything that is mistaken. However, it appears now that I have something VERY SIGNIFICANT to report! Hal Fox and his collaborator Dr. Shang-Xian Jin (who, I am told, wrote the leading Plasma Physics text currently used in the leading Chinese universities) have sent me a message which I did not understand but is appended below. I phoned Hal to ask him to clarify various points which I (as a non-experimentalist who has never seen how GRS works) was puzzled about. I will now attempt to pass on my "enlightened" understanding [?], which IMHO shows how the alleged "null result at LANL" could have been pure Self-Deception. Hal says that Dr. Jin set the GRS "software" to make the same number of counts (say 10,000); but if the sample size was different, or if the isotopes in the sample were different, the PERIOD of counting would vary (although this was not what is measured). What is measured is the DISTRIBUTION of the counts in the various different Energy Channels. (The conclusion as to what elements are responsible is merely an _inference_, not a direct measurement.) Hal agreed [?] with the following analogy. Say that you have a certain number of marbles (e.g. 10,000). Then you can put them into different bins. There are many different ways that the 10,000 marbles can be distributed in the different bins. But if the number of marbles is FIXED, all that the result shows is the RELATIVE _DISTRIBUTION_ of the number of marbles in each bin, NOT anything absolute (such as total amount of any element). Now Hal says that if you use GRS on ANY ONE of the following three things you get an IDENTICAL result: (1) the thorium nitrate powder before dissolvement; (2) the pre-processed solution; (3) the solid precipitate remaining after the processed solution has been dried by evaporation of all the water. From this a _NAIVE_ CONCLUSION would be that "nothing interesting happened." In fact, the IDENTITY of GRS spectrum for (1) and (3) is what caused Tom Claytor of LANL to tell me verbally that he was disappointed that it seemed that "nothing interesting had happened." BUT I urged him not to omit going ahead with many further tests to get a complete Mass Balance (whose results I have not yet heard). HOWEVER, Dr. Jin got a chemical assay done on his before- and after-processed solutions, and this assay reported that 97% (NINETY SEVEN PERCENT!) of the Thorium had disappeared, and only at most 3% (THREE PERCENT!) remained. This shows that the GRS results are deceptive!!! All the GRS results show is that the RELATIVE RATIOS of the Th_228 and its various daughters are the same in the untransmuted portion of the powder and in the solid precipitate remaining after processing! It says absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER about whether or not the ABSOLUTE AMOUNT of Thorium in the before-processing solution and the post-processing solution is the same!!! This is why I remain unconvinced by the reports that I have heard from PNNL and LANL so far that the "tests" were really sufficiently exhaustively thorough to have shown that "nothing interesting happened" and why I desperately HOPE & PRAY that the forthcoming test to be conducted at a University in Milan for the R&D Dept. of Pirelli will NOT rely exclusively on GRS but will instead depend on a COMPLETE MASS-BALANCE ANALYSIS. Sincerely, Bob Bass =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Letter from H. Fox & S.-X. Jin to P. Glueck & R. Bass: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dear Peter, Dr. Jin has just completed an excellent type of analysis. He has taken a sample of the thorium nitrate solution and set the software for the sodium-iodide gamma-ray detector to read a specified number of COUNTS. Next he used the same concept and made measurements WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF COUNTS of the spent solution, the disk electrode, and the precipitates. You will remember that we do have some thorium in the precipitates, therefore, we would expect the daughter products to be present in about the same ratio to the thorium-232 as it would be in the original solution. The concept is that by using the same number of counts for each of the various components, one should be able to find differences in the unprocessed thorium and the processed thorium. Also you understand that the gamma-ray from the thorium-232 is weak and is very difficult to observe with the relatively inexpensive equipmentthat we are using. THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT MEASURING CHANGES IN THORIUM-232 BUT IN ITS DAUGHTER PRODUCTS. The results are quite dramatic. The number of counts for Pb-212 (the most prominent of counts from the thorium solution) is considerably reduced in the after processing samples of the solution and of the disk electrode. However, with the same number of counts from the precipitates, there is little difference between the initial solution and the precipitates. Our preliminary explanation is the following: 1. At least some of the thorium daughter products have been removed from the processed solution in the same manner that the thorium has been removed from the solution. The remaining spectrum is not consistent with the initial spectrum. 2. The disk electrode shows no evidence of "plating out" of the thorium daughter products. The disk electrode spectrum shows a strongly diminished lead-212 count (as does the post-processed solution). This finding is consistent with the concept that the thorium AND ITS DAUGHTER PRODUCTS have not plated out onto the disk electrode. 3. From a chemical analysis we know that the precipitates do contain some thorium. We would expect that the precipitates would also contain a proportional amount of the daughter products. The spectrum shows that this is the case. There is little essential observable difference between the precipitate spectrum and the original thorium spectrum. Although we are encumbered with the use of relatively inexpensive equipment, I suggest that this approach, used by Dr. S-X Jin, supports the following hypothesis: In a LENT-1 reactor, using proper protocols, the processing of a weak solution of thorium nitrate will transmute most of the thorium and its daughter products into stable elements. It is hypothesized that the neutron-rich thorium will produce nuclear fragments that decay to stable elements by beta-emission and that such INITIALLY UNSTABLE elements will produce measurable amounts of radioactivity during the beta-emission stabilization processes. It is further hypothesized that a continuation of the reactor processes AFTER THE THORIUM HAS BEEN ESSENTIALLY REMOVED FROM SOLUTION will continue to produce nuclear reactions. It is hypothesized that these nuclear reactions involve elements that are bound to the electrodes, elements from the electrolyte, and the zirconium from the electrodes. For this last hypothesis, the strong increase in alpha emissions from the disk electrode and the rapid decrease of the alpha emissions over a period of a few hours is an important but not fully understood experimental fact. I hope that this latest information will be of value to you, my friend. Best personal regards,=20 Hal Fox and S-X Jin =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D forwarded by: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins] Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics, BYU, 1971-81] Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending Innoventech, Inc. Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g. Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000 See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/ P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739 Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213; e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD2A6F.3AB1A8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: LANL "LENT-nix"=20 Self-Deception?
 
A. Is rumor that Dr. Thomas N. = Claytor of=20 LANL
tested the CG's LENT-1 reactor and concluded 
that "nothing happened"=20 correct?
 
B. Is his verbal comment that Gamma = Ray=20 Spectroscopy
of undissolved Thorium Nitrate (before dissolving
and = processing) and the dried-out precipitate of
the post-processing = solution=20 were "identical"
really indicative that "nothing=20 happened"? 
 
Comment by Bob Bass:
 
          &nbs= p;     =20 Normally I would consider it unethical to
comment on an unpublished=20 "report."  However, Rich
Murray has posted the comment = that=20 Dr. Claytor at
Los Alamos National Lab (LANL) had tested = the
Cincinnati=20 Group (CG) Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation
(LENT) process in one of = their=20 LENT-1 Reactor Kits
and found that "nothing = happened." =20 Although I had
earlier discussed this on the phone with Dr. = Claytor
at=20 length, I had advised him to continue to get to the
bottom of the = matter by=20 "a complete Mass Balance" study,
including quantitative = chemical=20 assays, mass spectroscopy,
neutron activation analysis (to = discriminate=20 between
different isotopes of the same element), etc.  Dr.=20 Claytor
had told me that he would "eventually" produce a=20 written
report, but sounded non-committal as to whether or not
the = mass-spec etc. would be done. 

      = Rich Murray=20 has never heard ONE WORD from me
about anything at LANL done by Dr.=20 Claytor!!!  Therefore,
Dr. Claytor must have told someone else = who told=20 Murray,
because this posted rumor certainly did not come from=20 me!
           =      =20 I hope that it is not true that Dr. Claytor has
jumped prematurely to = a=20 conclusion based upon inadequate
data or upon a misinterpretation of = Gamma=20 Ray Spectroscopy
(GRS), because I have just learned some facts about=20 GRS
which makes me believe that if LANL has concluded = that
"nothing=20 happened" it could be accidental=20 Self-Deception!
         =        =20 I certainly do not know nearly as much about
GRS as either Dr. Ron = Brodzinski=20 at PNNL or even Scott
Little at the Austin IAS (who came out with a=20 plausible
idea for definitive detection of Th_232 by GRS that = was
soon=20 shown _quantitatively_ by Ron Brodzinski to be
overly optimistic and = actually=20 unfeasible).  I shall send
copies of this to both Ron = Brodzinski, Tom=20 Claytor and
Scott Little in hopes of being corrected if I say=20 anything
that is=20 mistaken.
          =  =20 However, it appears now that I have something
VERY SIGNIFICANT to=20 report!
           = Hal Fox=20 and his collaborator Dr. Shang-Xian Jin
(who, I am told, wrote the = leading=20 Plasma Physics text
currently used in the leading Chinese = universities)=20 have
sent me a message which I did not understand but is
appended=20 below.
           I = phoned=20 Hal to ask him to clarify various points
which I (as a = non-experimentalist=20 who has never seen how
GRS works) was puzzled=20 about.
           I = will=20 now attempt to pass on my "enlightened"
understanding [?], = which=20 IMHO shows how the alleged
"null result at LANL" could have = been=20 pure=20 Self-Deception.
         =  =20 Hal says that Dr. Jin set the GRS "software" to
make the = same=20 number of counts (say 10,000); but if the
sample size was different, = or if=20 the isotopes in the
sample were different, the PERIOD of counting = would=20 vary
(although this was not what is measured).  What = is
measured is=20 the DISTRIBUTION of the counts in the various
different Energy=20 Channels.  (The conclusion as to what
elements are responsible = is merely=20 an _inference_, not
a direct=20 measurement.)
       Hal agreed [?] = with the=20 following analogy.  Say
that you have a certain number of = marbles (e.g.=20 10,000).
Then you can put them into different bins.  There = are
many=20 different ways that the 10,000 marbles can be
distributed in the = different=20 bins.  But if the number of
marbles is FIXED, all that the = result shows=20 is the
RELATIVE _DISTRIBUTION_ of the number of = marbles 
in each bin, NOT anything absolute = (such as=20 total
amount of any=20 element).
          = Now=20 Hal says that if you use GRS on ANY ONE
of the following three things = you get=20 an IDENTICAL result:
(1) the thorium nitrate powder before=20 dissolvement;
(2) the pre-processed solution;
(3) the solid = precipitate=20 remaining after the processed
solution has been dried by evaporation = of all=20 the=20 water.
          &nb= sp;  =20 >From this a _NAIVE_ CONCLUSION would be that
"nothing = interesting=20 happened."  In fact, the IDENTITY
of GRS spectrum for (1) = and (3)=20 is what caused Tom Claytor
of LANL to tell me verbally that he was=20 disappointed that
it seemed that "nothing interesting had=20 happened."
         =     =20 BUT I urged him not to omit going ahead with
many further tests to = get a=20 complete Mass Balance (whose
results I have not yet=20 heard).
           = HOWEVER,=20 Dr. Jin got a chemical assay done on his
before- and after-processed=20 solutions, and this assay
reported that 97% (NINETY SEVEN PERCENT!) = of the=20 Thorium
had disappeared, and only at most 3% (THREE=20 PERCENT!)
remained.
        = ;    =20 This shows that the GRS results are deceptive!!!
All the GRS results = show is=20 that the RELATIVE RATIOS of
the Th_228 and its various daughters are = the same=20 in the
untransmuted portion of the powder and in the = solid
precipitate=20 remaining after processing!  It says absolutely
NOTHING = WHATSOEVER about=20 whether or not the ABSOLUTE
AMOUNT of Thorium in the = before-processing=20 solution and
the post-processing solution is the=20 same!!!
          &n= bsp;=20 This is why I remain unconvinced by the reports
that I have heard = from PNNL=20 and LANL so far that the
"tests" were really sufficiently=20 exhaustively thorough
to have shown that "nothing interesting=20 happened" and
why I desperately HOPE & PRAY that the = forthcoming=20 test
to be conducted at a University in Milan for the = R&D
Dept. of=20 Pirelli will NOT rely exclusively on GRS but
will instead depend on a = COMPLETE MASS-BALANCE 
ANALYSIS.
        &nb= sp;          =20 Sincerely,
          = ;            =             &= nbsp;     =20 Bob Bass 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Letter from H.=20 Fox & S.-X. Jin to P. Glueck & R.=20 Bass:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 
Dear Peter,
Dr. Jin has just completed an = excellent type of=20 analysis.
He has taken a sample of the thorium = nitrate=20 solution
and set the software for the sodium-iodide = gamma-ray
detector to=20 read a specified number of COUNTS. 
Next he used the same concept and = made=20 measurements WITH
THE SAME NUMBER OF COUNTS of the spent solution,=20 the
disk electrode, and the precipitates. 
You will remember that we do have = some thorium=20 in the
precipitates, therefore, we would expect the = daughter
products to=20 be present in about the same ratio to the
thorium-232 as it would be = in the=20 original solution. 
The concept is that by using the = same number of=20 counts
for each of the various components, one should be able
to = find=20 differences in the unprocessed thorium and
the processed = thorium.  Also=20 you understand that the
gamma-ray from the thorium-232 is weak and is = very
difficult to observe with the relatively = inexpensive
equipmentthat we=20 are using.  THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT
MEASURING CHANGES IN = THORIUM-232 BUT=20 IN ITS 
DAUGHTER PRODUCTS.
The results are quite = dramatic.  The number=20 of counts
for Pb-212 (the most prominent of counts from = the
thorium=20 solution) is considerably reduced in the after
processing samples of = the=20 solution and of the disk
electrode.  However, with the same = number of=20 counts from
the precipitates, there is little difference between=20 the
initial solution and the precipitates. 
Our preliminary explanation is the=20 following:
1.  At least some of the = thorium daughter=20 products have
been removed from the processed solution in the = same
manner=20 that the thorium has been removed from the
solution.  The = remaining=20 spectrum is not consistent with
the initial = spectrum. 
2.  The disk electrode shows no = evidence of=20 "plating out"
of the thorium daughter products.  The = disk=20 electrode
spectrum shows a strongly diminished lead-212 count
(as = does the=20 post-processed solution).  This finding is
consistent with the = concept=20 that the thorium AND ITS
DAUGHTER PRODUCTS have not plated out onto = the=20 disk
electrode. 
3.  From a chemical analysis we = know that=20 the precipitates
do contain some thorium. We would expect that=20 the
precipitates would also contain a proportional amount of
the = daughter=20 products.  The spectrum shows that this is
the case.  There = is=20 little essential observable difference
between the precipitate = spectrum and=20 the original thorium
spectrum. 
Although we are encumbered with the = use of=20 relatively
inexpensive equipment, I suggest that this = approach,
used by=20 Dr. S-X Jin, supports the following hypothesis: 
In a LENT-1 reactor, using proper = protocols,=20 the
processing of a weak solution of thorium nitrate = will
transmute most=20 of the thorium and its daughter products
into stable elements.  = It is=20 hypothesized that the
neutron-rich thorium will produce nuclear = fragments=20 that
decay to stable elements by beta-emission and that = such
INITIALLY=20 UNSTABLE elements will produce measurable
amounts of radioactivity = during the=20 beta-emission
stabilization processes. 
It is further hypothesized that a = continuation=20 of the
reactor processes AFTER THE THORIUM HAS = BEEN 
ESSENTIALLY REMOVED FROM SOLUTION=20 will
continue to produce nuclear = reactions.  It=20 is
hypothesized that these = nuclear
reactions=20 involve elements that are bound to the
electrodes, elements from the=20 electrolyte, and the
zirconium from the = electrodes. 
For this last hypothesis, the strong = increase in=20 alpha
emissions from the disk electrode and the rapid decrease
of = the=20 alpha emissions over a period of a few hours is
an important but not = fully=20 understood experimental fact. 
I hope that this latest information = will be of=20 value
to you, my friend. 
    Best personal = regards,=20
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 Hal Fox and S-X=20 Jin
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&nb= sp;
forwarded = by:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Robert W.=20 Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins]
  =20 Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics, BYU, = 1971-81]
Inventor:=20 Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion,=20 pending
          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  =20 Innoventech, Inc.
Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear = Transmutation=20 (LENT) for
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------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BD2A6F.3AB1A8E0-- --------------201130005BFD-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 21:10:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02310; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:06:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:06:58 -0800 Message-Id: <01BD2B2D.AA710C20 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp> From: Melvin Miles To: "'Vortex'" Subject: Miles' Reply To Jones/Hansen Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:12:55 +-900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA02290 Resent-Message-ID: <"PUHnJ1.0.0a.njMpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is my latest effort to get my rebuttal to Jones/Hansen published by the Journal of Physical Chemistry. Dr. Melvin H. Miles The Institute of Applied Energy New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory 3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan 81-11-898-6391 - Phone 81-11-898-6390 - Fax miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - E-mail Fax Cover Sheet DATE: January 27, 1998 TIME: 9:30 a.m. TO: Dr. Mostafa A. El-Sayed PHONE: 404-894-0293 Editor-in-Chief FAX: 404-894-0294 The Journal of Physical Chemistry FROM: Dr. Melvin H. Miles RE: JP 961751 (Miles) Number of pages including cover sheet: 1 Message: Dr. El-Sayed: I really thought that this matter concerning my manuscript (JP 961751J) was settled when I left for Japan last October. I do not even have a copy of this manuscript or the disk with me here in Japan. I can see no valid reason for your request for a new manuscript since there are no changes. I simply wanted a few comments added as a final response to the new comments by Jones and Hansen. There surely must be a simpler way to do this. My half page should follow the new comments by Jones and Hansen rath er than being a footnote to my paper. However, I am willing to have it published either way, but I cannot send you a new manuscript. I hope this can be resolved without undo further delays to the publication of my manuscript. It would not be easy for me to track down my manuscript and the disk in California while I am still in Japan. Furthermore, my time is very limited here at the N HE Laboratory, hence I want to concentrate fully on my new cold fusion experiments. Sincerely, Dr. Melvin H. Miles Guest Researcher, NHE - NEDO From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 21:20:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27428; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:16:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:16:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CD5FE6.7530 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:17:42 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, jdecker@keelynet.com Subject: Aerodynes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FJ1GT2.0.Ni6.XsMpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 26, 1998 Hey, Jerry, I'd like to have that photo of the Aerodyne hovering device-- hope you can remember who and when about it. I've been mulling over for years ideas about spinning shapes that would fly by throwing off the air boundary layer to generate lift. A simple such shape would be a spinning upside down thin plastic bowl. I spun one on an electric motor, and it noiselessly threw off a nice breeze, generating some lift with minimal turbulence, which I visualized with incense smoke. A related concept is the Tesla turbine, which is presented on some web pages. As one, Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 21:27:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29113; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:26:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:26:06 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: D2O NMR Reactor Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:24:46 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cf41fb.270644467 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980126142826.00bd3920@spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980126142826.00bd3920 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YzVWj.0.j67.g_Mpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:28:26 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >At 10:59 AM 1/5/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > >>Well that's the mass difference. So either Robert is wrong, or indeed >>the "borrowing" is important (IOW the neutron is essentially never >>really free, just hops across from one nucleus to the other), or 2.2 >>MeV has to be accumulated through resonance (seems a bit of a stretch >>to me though - maybe it won't really work because of this). Guess I forgot about proton hopping as well. > > I didn't invent it, but I have observed it. Deuterium ought to act like >most other stable nucleii, but whenever you start moving them, they fall >apart all over the place. Ten kilovolt deuterons is more than enough to >want film badges on everyone. Doesn't this qualify it as hot fusion (or is it cold?), but then of the type D + M rather than D + D? > > And again, I am not an expert on it, just enough to know when to buy >more parafin blocks. But apparently the "normal" reaction is for the proton >to be absorbed by a high-Z species, often in a (p,n) reaction, where the >nucleii retains its atomic weight, but gets bumped one up on the periodic >table. Question: Does this only happen when the high-Z species forms part of a lattice? >Anyway, in the early days of fusion research, an increase in >neutrons was often an indication of contamination of the plasma, and a >neutron burst always accompanied a catastrophic loss of containment. > > Note that the combination means that stripping often produces one >thermal neutron, and one very high energy (order of 10 MeV) neutron. Presumably the thermal neutron is left over from the stripping, and the energetic neutron results from the excited state of the resultant nucleus. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 21:31:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06110; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:24:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:24:56 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills - superconductive? Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:24:44 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ce3c3f.269175263 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <2f33c398.34cca351 aol.com> In-Reply-To: <2f33c398.34cca351 aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3uSrh.0.NV1.d-Mpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:53:00 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >If my hypothesis is correct and cold fusion does occurs only in room >temperature superconductors it seems unlikey that anything as hot as as Mills >device is could be superconductive. > >My guess..its way to hot to be superconductive and way way to cold to invoke >normal fusion. > >Again I state..we need to focus on superconductive processes. > >Frank Znidarsic > The cause of resistance in metals is due to random thermal motion of atoms interfering with the flow of electrons, and scattering them. If all the atoms of a material could be made to vibrate only in parallel planes, then electrons could pass through the lattice between the planes, without scattering. This would allow for both high temperature (atoms still vibrating madly), and superconductivity. But it would be superconductivity based on single electrons, not electron pairs. The way to achieve this ordered vibration of atoms, is to ensure that the conductor has a triclinic lattice structure, and is heated to near its melting point. Under these conditions, it becomes superconducting in the direction of the shortest distance between atoms. While difficult to achieve in a mass of metal overall, it shouldn't be difficult for individual crystals. So Frank, this is where you get your high temp. superconductor. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 22:03:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02899; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:53:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:53:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980127135204.006c12ec cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:52:04 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Mills - superconductive? In-Reply-To: <34ce3c3f.269175263 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <2f33c398.34cca351 aol.com> <2f33c398.34cca351 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bV8QY3.0.Cj.XPNpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin wrote: > >The way to achieve this ordered vibration of atoms, is to ensure that >the conductor has a triclinic lattice structure, and is heated to near >its melting point. Under these conditions, it becomes superconducting >in the direction of the shortest distance between atoms. >While difficult to achieve in a mass of metal overall, it shouldn't be >difficult for individual crystals. Do you have a reference on this Robin? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 22:17:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05520; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:14:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:14:34 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Pyroelectric Effect & Chis Tinsleys Capacitor Experiments Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:09:36 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2aea$256f31c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_012F_01BD2AAF.791059C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Oqh3V.0.8M1.7jNpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012F_01BD2AAF.791059C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Abstract TDEI -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Pyroelectric Polymer Electrets=20 S. Bauer, S. B. Lang=20 Pyroelectricity is the electrical response of a material to a change in = temperature. It exists in polymers which contain spontaneous or frozen = polarization resulting from oriented dipoles. This review describes the = physical basis for the existence of the pyroelectric effect and = discusses its behavior in a number of amorphous, semicrystalline, = crystalline and liquid crystalline polymers. Some of the techniques for = measurement of the pyroelectric effect are presented and its use in = pyroelectric relaxation spectroscopy and thermal analysis is described. = The spatial distribution of polarization and space charge through the = thickness of polymer films can be determined by several thermal = pyroelectric techniques. Recent developments in the integration of = pyroelectric polymer infrared detectors with solid-state silicon devices = are described. One of the most important recent applications of polymers = is in photopyroelectric spectroscopy which can be used for the = determination of a number of thermal and optical properties of = materials. Finally, some miscellaneous applications in physics, = chemistry and biology are presented. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Published: IEEE Trans. DEI, Vol. 3 pp. 647-676, 1996. Paper Identification number: 566 Category: PAPER -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Note: To see any math constructions perfectly, run the file through TeX; = currently the WWW browsers are still not up to par for math notations = and various letter accents. It is the main reason that the complete = papers are not yet available on line. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Back to Transactions Home Page or to Index page=20 ------=_NextPart_000_012F_01BD2AAF.791059C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Transactions on Dielectrics and = Electrical Insulation TDEI, Abstract of
 


Abstract TDEI

Pyroelectric Polymer Electrets
S. Bauer, S. B. Lang=20


Pyroelectricity is the electrical response of a material = to a=20 change in temperature. It exists in polymers which contain spontaneous = or frozen=20 polarization resulting from oriented dipoles. This review describes the = physical=20 basis for the existence of the pyroelectric effect and discusses its = behavior in=20 a number of amorphous, semicrystalline, crystalline and liquid = crystalline=20 polymers. Some of the techniques for measurement of the pyroelectric = effect are=20 presented and its use in pyroelectric relaxation spectroscopy and = thermal=20 analysis is described. The spatial distribution of polarization and = space charge=20 through the thickness of polymer films can be determined by several = thermal=20 pyroelectric techniques. Recent developments in the integration of = pyroelectric=20 polymer infrared detectors with solid-state silicon devices are = described. One=20 of the most important recent applications of polymers is in = photopyroelectric=20 spectroscopy which can be used for the determination of a number of = thermal and=20 optical properties of materials. Finally, some miscellaneous = applications in=20 physics, chemistry and biology are presented.
Published: IEEE Trans. DEI, Vol. 3 pp. 647-676, 1996.
Paper = Identification=20 number: 566
Category: PAPER
Note: To see any math constructions perfectly, run the file through TeX; = currently the WWW browsers are still not up to par for math notations = and=20 various letter accents. It is the main reason that the complete papers = are not=20 yet available on line.
Back to Transactions Home Page or to Index page=20 ------=_NextPart_000_012F_01BD2AAF.791059C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Jan 26 23:26:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13705; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:21:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:21:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Pyroelectric Effects & Chris Tinsley's Capacitor Experiments Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:15:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2af3$5eac1f80$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"uggrP3.0.3M3.ehOpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Working with the older radio-TV and radar sub-assemblies from 1946 on, it is noticed that heat affected the older capacitors enough to shift critical circuits out of proper operating mode. I once took the aluminized paper from a cigarette package and rolled up two sheets and heated the "capacitor" while watching the output on an ohmmeter. Surprisingly there was a large change on the meter. Later I "fried" a tantalum oxide capacitor with a small flame from an acetylene torch,and got a good output that we thought was a thermoelectric effect. It turns out that paper (cellulose crystals) show a pronounced pyroelectric effect. :-) >From this,it is no surprise that the dielectrics of capacitors are affected by heat and "relax" in a manner that puts charge on capacitors after they have been stressed during operation. A web search on the Pyroelectric Effect, shows some heavy research in this area with some very exotic materials. No ZPE Charging, I Think? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 02:21:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25619; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:19:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:19:00 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills - superconductive? Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:17:40 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34d2b36b.27067027 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <2f33c398.34cca351 aol.com> <2f33c398.34cca351@aol.com> <3.0.1.32.19980127135204.006c12ec@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980127135204.006c12ec cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D484-1.0.AG6.HIRpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:52:04 +0800, John Winterflood wrote: >Robin wrote: >> >>The way to achieve this ordered vibration of atoms, is to ensure that >>the conductor has a triclinic lattice structure, and is heated to near >>its melting point. Under these conditions, it becomes superconducting >>in the direction of the shortest distance between atoms. >>While difficult to achieve in a mass of metal overall, it shouldn't be >>difficult for individual crystals. > >Do you have a reference on this Robin? > Yes, me :). Though I state it as fact, it's really just conjecture. Nevertheless, I think someone ought to try it out. If you are interested, I can give you a lengthier explanation by private email, so as not to bore everyone else on the list, who have all heard it all before. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 02:58:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28253; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:55:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:55:14 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bd2af3$5eac1f80$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:53:57 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Pyroelectric Effects & Chris Tinsley's Capacitor Experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"6UzVx1.0.Mv6.GqRpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick - Thanks for the items on pyroelectric effects. One little tidbit about Tinsley's experiment that I haven't figured out: the different charge rates on caps in different orientations. When I had a set of three caps oriented differently, they were still fairly close together and their leads weren't insulated from one another except by two or three inches of still air. On the graphs of voltage, I could see that sometimes two caps would "pair off", and their voltage changes would track exactly for several sample points. Then there might be a switch, and one of the pair would 'attach' itself to the other cap for a while. There would be slight divergences between them otherwise. It was as if a little river of faintly ionized air flow off the leads would connect to caps together, then get flipped off to the other cap. This was during the experiment when I'd open the toolbox to take a reading, completely disturbing the air around the caps each time. They were taped to fixed positions on a piece of foam board though. The other thing I noticed was that when I put the caps in the centrifuge, sealing a cap in a film can made a big difference in the charge rate. The conclusion I make from all this is that external ion transfer activity seems to count for something in the gross effects, not just the internal dielectric relaxation. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 02:58:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12032; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:53:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:53:59 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980126.201223.12158.4.tv juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980126114627.00aa52c0 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:53:52 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"q2dWr1.0.qx2.5pRpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tim - > What is the best material and method for > creating an electret ? I know that epoxy and urethanes have a somewhat high dielectric constant, and might be polarized by curing between charged plates. That commercial scar-tissue-healing bandage electret is silicone rubber, so presumably that would work well too. > Would plexiglass work as well or better > than wax ? Wax is certainly cheap and easy to cast, and silicone rubber is readily available as silicone caulk. > Are you saying that an electret with metal > plates on both sides would buid up charge > and then could be discharched repeatedly ? > What is the source of energy ? Presumably from available ions arriving on the plates from nearby? In an electret microphone for instance, sound waves provide the energy. This has me thinking too. I bet the trick might be simply providing the plates with access to lots of passing ions to resupply charge to the plates to balance that of the dielectric/electret. IOW, maybe a comblike antenna in the air, and a large contact area conductor (big metal plate) in the ground, that sort of thing. The posts by Jerry about that patent on tapping earth energy remind me of the tethered satellite experiments. There may be *lots* of available electrical energy lurking nearby if you can figure out a way to organize it. I'd be careful about tapping too much earth energy though if this really worked and began to catch on. Wouldn't want to imminentize the eschaton any more than we already have, right? Look what happened to that poor satellite! There's also the issue of resonance in reference to that earth tapping thing. I don't know what would be resonant here. I'm not sure it would just be the earth's electricity as suggested in that patent, as it might also have to do with ionization around the above-ground wire as well as the below-ground parts. In the recent experiments I did, one of the things that got in the way of making readings I wanted to make was the tendency of the capacitor's charge to oscillate slowly after the leads were opened again after being shorted for some time. With one of the rocks I tried, this effect was quite pronounced and had a period of some few minutes. This wasn't just a return up to some set point like a capacitor charging on a battery through a resistor, but rather a nice smooth oscillation to peaks way above and below the eventual equilibrium setpoint. The granite floor piece I looked at seemed to have a stable point at 40mV even while being slightly drained by 30 megohms and a constantly hooked up DMM. The temperature driven waves I saw in the caps were not evident at all. This rock wanted to just sit quietly at 40mV all day, but after initially being hooked up after shorting it would swing slowly back and forth for a while in a damped oscillation by as much as 200mV above and below that 40mV point before slowly settling in. I'd guess to optimize this you'd want to get a situation where the period was very fast (not to mention large capacity) and then tap it on the peaks for greater power than found at just the set point. And to get even more ionization for collecting charge? Radium. Works for Bruce P., doesn't it? ;) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 03:00:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28138; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:55:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:55:02 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2248cb4a.34cd596e aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:53:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: capacitors Resent-Message-ID: <"LPU_j3.0.Qt6.2qRpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Nothing OU here just charge leakage. Are you sure? That hasn't been my experience lately. Even if it is just temperature in exposed capacitors, some experiments have shown that even in constant temperature storage the voltage rises and falls with time and external events. Either way, the source of energy is external. Also, I wonder if you couldn't use an electret in a capacitor to force a rather high set point. Couldn't you then discharge it repeatedly, and each time it would tend to spring back to that set point - provided the leads had easy access to a reservoir of charge like you usually have in the air of ordinary environments? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 03:45:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA18072; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 03:39:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 03:39:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Pyroelectric Effects & Chris Tinsley's Capacitor Experiments Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 04:34:47 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2b17$92bddb00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"upI112.0.AQ4.jTSpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: Vortex-L Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 3:56 AM Subject: Re: Pyroelectric Effects & Chris Tinsley's Capacitor Experiments >Frederick - > >Thanks for the items on pyroelectric effects. > >One little tidbit about Tinsley's experiment that I haven't figured out: >the different charge rates on caps in different orientations. Having accumulated years of experience with manipulating TV "Rabbit Ear" antennas which seem to work best if you stand on your head facing North by Northwest, orientation could be an unknown quantity. :-) Regards, Frederick > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 08:04:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02767; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:57:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:57:40 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19980126.201223.12158.4.tv juno.com> <3.0.1.32.19980126114627.00aa52c0 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:56:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"3qr3L3.0.7h.lFWpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Just two comments for Rick M: 1. You should check the input resistance of the DVM you are using. Typically this is 10 Mohm, and this goes in parallel with whatever else is in the system you are measuring. 2. You chould check the stability of your DVM ofer time and in response to ambient temperature changes. Test the meter both open and short circuited (though open circuited is probably more relevant to your measurements, it is important to establish the characteristics of your instruments in any scientific experiment.) Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 09:17:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04993; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:09:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:09:13 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980126173758.00a9c398 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:08:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: negative viscosity Resent-Message-ID: <"JJRCe.0.qD1.tIXpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, >...or have folks actually observed TRUE negative values for viscosity!? >That would mean that instead of a drag force that retarded the motion of an >object thru the viscous media, you would have a PUSHing force that helped >the object along thru the viscous media!!!!! The negative viscosity is actually true negative viscosity. It has been observed in the case of turbulence but it occurs in the presence of rotation so you cannot take something like a balloon floating in air and have it move through the air without any on its own. Molecular negative viscosity has not been very well researched. I don't know of anyone other than myself looking into it. You don't need rotation for molecular negative viscosity. You just need a force that is strong enough so that the spatial length scales are on the order of the particle mean free path. In the Earth's upper atmosphere this condition would occur when the gravitational scale height is equal to the mean free path. This would be about 350 kilometers and defines the base of the exosphere. There is evidence here of negative viscosity and I have presented some of it at conferences. The reaction I got from investigators in the field was that the data or my analysis of the data was wrong and I should go back and fix it up. A balloon in this region still would not do very much. That is because the viscosity is dependent on the spatial orientation. It would be positive above the balloon and negative below it and the positive value would be larger than the negative value. So viscosity here is no longer a scalar coefficient effect. If we had an air tight sphere here enclosing the Earth and we got rid of atmosphere above it, then it should start to rotate on its own. The negative viscosity below it would be pushing it along and there would be no positive viscosity above it to retard it. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 10:26:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23405; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:19:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:19:50 -0800 From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:19:02 EST To: wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: negative viscosity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"z-XSj3.0.bj5.4LYpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 1/27/98 11:16:53 AM, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov wrote: <> If a negative viscoty situation could be set up in the lab, wouldn't it as described constitute a perpetual motion machine? Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 11:23:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08287; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:19:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:19:06 -0800 Message-ID: <34CE31D4.6521 skylink.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:13:24 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pyroelectric Effects & Chris Tinsley's Capacitor Experiments References: <01bd2af3$5eac1f80$LocalHost default> <34CE2FEB.27BD@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eF08-.0.N12.eCZpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > No ZPE Charging, I Think? :-) Something else occurs, which may not be explainable by the pyroelectric effect. Odd things happen even when no dielectric is used. A capacitor with a vacuum dielectric when placed in an electric field in a vacuum can become charged via electrostatic induction. One might ask, since we generally regard all electric charges as being attached to some type of physical particle -- where does the induced charge come > from and how can it be passed throuh a vacuum? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:06:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20175; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:00:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:00:12 -0800 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:59:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801271959.NAA29923 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Asking Miles on NHE Lab's future disposition update To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: miles nhelab.iae.or.jp Resent-Message-ID: <"CYsyo2.0.5x4.BpZpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 27, 1998 Dr. Miles, I hope your differences with Dr. El-Sayed, re. Jones/Hansen matter becomes resolved soon. Since you are still there at the NHE laboratory that is scheduled to be closed down as we heard in the U.S., I wonder if you could favor us with an update on the situation. The area of LENR (nuclear transmutation and remediation) seems to be picking up steam just as the excess energy studies are reaching a plateau for now. Is it possible that the NHE facilities be recommissioned to study the area of LENR as a larger part and parcel of a new budget with a redirection of their studies on cold fusion? (wouldn't hurt to make the recommendation :)) Radioactive remediation of waste fission products would be most valuable to a Japan trying to develop energy self suficiency through nuclear energy (fission type right now but actually anything). And if this is not to be, what is the future disposition of the facilities, as the rumor mill has it? Thanking you in advance, Sincerely, Akira Kawasaki From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 12:22:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25143; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:18:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980127151902.00bd4830 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:19:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199801210127.TAA27532 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yXJFU3.0.d86.b4apq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:27 PM 1/20/98 -0600, Richard Wayne Wall wrote: >How do you explain He3 and He4 reaction products produced in the >Farnsworth/Hirsch fusor by your stripping mechanism? This is a problem? If you are producing neutrons from d ---> p + n, then d + n ---> t, t --> He3 + e- (beta decay) and t + n ---> h4, h4 ---> He4 + e-. You will, of course, get some He3 from d + d ---> He3 + n, and it is just a matter of nomenclature in a beam fusor whether this counts as intended operation or self-targeting. (In "true" hot fusion experiments, the difference between thermal and beam deuterons is crucial.) However, the alphas are more likely from X --->(p,alpha) Y or X --->(n,alpha) Z for some high Z nucleus X. If He4 productions goes up, it will usually indicate contamination (often by carbon or nitrogen) rather than the result of d + t fusion. Unless, of course, you are adding tritium to the plasma. We used to joke that these early (in the process) neutrons were a warning to check the shielding carefully. But 40 years later, that rings pretty hollow. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 13:33:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23294; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:56:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:56:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980127155547.00ace2e0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:55:47 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3e07d31b.34c5a6e7 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Q2urB.0.uh5.6eapq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:42 AM 1/21/98 EST, VCockeram wrote: >By plasma do you mean H+ ions? Would all (or most) of the H atoms >be ions? Depends on the temperature of the plasma. You can get as low as 5% ions, and as high as 100%. >Does the HCN get the C from the atmospheric CO2? Or from fingerprints on the electrode, or a spot of grease or a fly in the wrong place, etc. We thought a "pure" N2 plasma arc would be safe, as long as we avoided contamination. We found out that in a plasma, the only way to avoid contamination is to bake it all out, over days. The important thing to know is that CN- is the most stable compound at high temperatures. It survives at temperatures where N2, O2, CO--, HF, etc. are all dissociated. This means that if there is carbon and nitrogen in your arc, most of it will end up as cyanide. >Thanks for your answer. It's been doggone tough to >find info on this. My arc would be in pure H2 atmosphere and >was looking for a way to supply LOTS of atomic H for Mills' >theorized hydrino reaction. Hmm...now how do I feed a catylist >into this torch.....maybe an arc in H2(ac or dc?) with one of the >electrodes K metal or a K alloy....hollow tungsten for the other >and H2 feed... >Back to thinking... > >BTW, I'm thinking of small scale, milliamp arc, <1mhz, maybe >some harmonic of H2 resonance. >Also valving the H2 supply will for safety concerns, be very conservative. >(but I'll still mind the HCN) >Thanks very much for that one! You talk like making one small enough will give you a toy to play with. Forget it! You might be able to do what you want with an abnormal glow discharge, but read all the problems Scott Little has been having getting a 2 Torr hydrogen atmosphere in a test container. Atomic hydrogen makes molten sodium look tame. This is the most potent reducing agent possible. An atomic hydrogen torch, or any plasma torch is a big snarling beast. To do it right you need a good nozzle, the lowest gas flow at which the nozzle can be run, and the minimum current to sustain an arc. When I was playing with one, the main goal was to get the power consumption DOWN to 10 KW. We got it down from 40 KW to around 14 before running into other problems with using one as a light source. (Talk about burning your candle at both ends...) You wouldn't have to worry about keeping the arc where it was very visible, but still, plan on blowing a few fuses, unless you use batteries, which is not a bad idea. You want real fun? Supercool the output of an atomic hydrogen torch, and you can form liquid or solid monatomic hydrogen. (Blow the arc through a cooled expansion nozzle with a large expansion ratio on to hydrogen slush.) You now have the ultimate rocket fuel. The only problem is that is a monopropellant which decomposes rapidly above a few degrees K, but it gives such a beautiful light. ;-) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 13:48:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28195; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:32:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:32:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:30:54 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34cec569.191995639 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JzHOw.0.Pu6.O9bpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:52 AM 1/22/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Mills points out that the H + H -> H2 reaction is one of those >reactions that cannot happen spontaneously. It requires the >intervention of a third body to happen at an appreciable rate, such >that momentum can be distributed (the right hand side only has one >particle ISO two or more). However, and it is a big however, there is a reaction pathway: h + energy ---> p+ + e- p+ + h- ---> h2+ + energy h2+ + h --> h2 + p+ + energy Let one little cosmic ray into your tank of single-H gas, and you have a very large explosion. I can't remember for sure, but I think that the second step doesn't happen in a liquid, making it relatively stable. >Getting back to the third particle... this generally means that you >need to have either a three body collision in the gas, or a collision >with a wall (also three body BTW), to allow a reaction to occur. >All of which makes sense out or your observations above. >It also tends to explain why a stoichiometric mixture of H and O might >be relatively stable, i.e. reactions of the type H + O -> HO are also >not possible without a third body, unlike reactions such as H2 + O -> >HO + H and H + O2 -> HO + O. IOW if either H2 or O2 is present, then >you have a real bomb on your hands, but the unlikelihood of three body >collisions prevents the pure monatomics from reacting. Neffer hoppen GI! Monoatomic oxygen is not stable under any circumstances I know of. The similar key to the one above is O + O --> O2+ + e-, and it will happen. However diatomic H2 and O2 can be mixed without problem--in a dark room. UV light is enough to start a chain reaction, but if you are careful, you can avoid an explosion! Each ion created starts a single chain, and if the gasses are cool enough, chains die out faster than they can be started. The closest you can come to monoatomic oxygen other than in an electrolytic solution is Xenon trioxide. It makes monoatomic hydrogen look well behaved. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 15:03:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01637; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:54:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:54:35 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:54:11 -0500 To: Puthoff , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: negative viscosity Resent-Message-ID: <"UYDCH.0.UP.fMcpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >In a message dated 1/27/98 11:16:53 AM, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov wrote: > ><there would be no positive viscosity above it to retard it. >>> > >If a negative viscoty situation could be set up in the lab, wouldn't it as >described constitute a perpetual motion machine? > >Hal Puthoff Yes that is exactly right. In my upcomming paper I will actually come out and state something to that effect. When it is ready I think I will put it on my home page. In a previous version of the paper I took a low key approach and did not make any radical claims. Still the NASA management saw the potential controversy and they sent my paper out for an internal review. The internal reviewer agreed that my entropy conservation equation was correct but suggested that I take out the few comments about the second law that I put in becasuse we all know that everything works out there. Since my main objective is to show that the second law does not work in higher order, I am forced to actually argue my case or to say nothing. So I will be going with the radical route. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 15:44:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11485; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:39:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:39:21 -0800 Message-ID: <34CE7031.191A interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:39:29 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: negative viscosity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9j7Qs2.0.Mp2.d0dpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Larry Wharton wrote: > > Since my main objective is to show that the second law does not work in > higher order, I am forced to actually argue my case or to say nothing. So > I will be going with the radical route. > Gee, Larry, before you stick your NASA neck out too far, isn't there some benchtop way to confirm your theory? How about some kind of trick with the old ball-suspended-in-the-exhaust-of-a-shopvac-effect? Is that flow "higher order turbulance" enough to show the effect? If not, any simple ideas? If the second law is a mathematical-statistical sort of thing, does your theory just show that the statistics break down for certain turbulant flows? Only a BS in ME with no PhD ------ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 17:38:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05253; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:28:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:28:08 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34CE79A9.67CA88D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:19:53 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scott's BLP experiments References: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00@spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1KTcL2.0.-H1.ccepq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Getting back to the third particle... this generally means that you need to have either a three body collision in the gas, or a collision with a wall (also three body BTW), to allow a reaction to occur. Hi Scott, I can't resist giving the old drum a few more whacks. Maybe the reaction is happening at the walls and the tungsten filament is just window dressing. How does your (wall surface)/(reactor volume) ratio compare with that used by BLP? Or, regardless of this ratio, are we looking at a thin film reaction because of the way the H2 is flowing? Is the wall flow turbulent or laminar. It's possible that the BLP conditions won't scale, either up or down, and that "duplicating" BLP means making an exact copy. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 18:49:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17857; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:42:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:42:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:40:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801280240.UAA12905 dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Tabletop Fusion Experiment To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"LLI2d1.0.rM4.Hifpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robert Eachus wrote: snip >This is a problem? If you are producing neutrons from d ---> p + n, >then d + n ---> t, t --> He3 + e- (beta decay) and t + n ---> h4, >h4 ---> He4 + e-. You will, of course, get some He3 from >d + d ---> He3 + n, and it is just a matter of nomenclature in a beam >fusor whether this counts as intended operation or self-targeting. >(In "true" hot fusion experiments, the difference between thermal and >beam deuterons is crucial.) snip Robert I. Eachus Without the need to undergo the contortions above (which in themselves rely heavily on fusion reactions), please consider the simple well established and well studied fusion reactions. They are simple and to the point. The deuteron-deuteron reaction, D(d,n), is: d + d --> He3 + n + 3.29 MeV. The neutron energy is about 2.5 MeV. The tritium-deuteron reaction, T(d,n), is: t + d --> He4 + n + 17.6 MeV. The neutron energy is about 14 MeV. These are the major reactions that occur in the Farnsworth/Hirsch fusor. The reaction signatures bear out these reactions. Deuterium is consumed and the He3 and He4 reaction products are produced as the primary reaction products. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 20:11:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14499; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:05:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:05:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:59:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Interesting exercise Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"L_nnT3.0.NY3.ovgpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., This is an interesting exercise for all you analog folks: Breadboard a simple op amp amplifier, non inverting ... give it some gain. Use battry power. Take your DVM and connect it to the input of the op amp. Change for different settings. Investigate all of scales that do not measure resistance. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 21:29:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10889; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:25:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:25:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980127232138.007f2aa0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:21:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Scott's BLP experiments In-Reply-To: <34CE79A9.67CA88D mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HmQfm3.0._f2.r4ipq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:19 PM 1/27/98 -0500, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > How does > your (wall surface)/(reactor volume) ratio compare > with that used by BLP? Mine is substantially larger than theirs...maybe 5 times more surface area per unit volume. > Or, regardless of this ratio, > are we looking at a thin film reaction because of the > way the H2 is flowing? The H2 isn't flowing in my case. I evac the chamber, bake it out good, and then fill it to 2 torr of H2 and close it off. > It's possible that the BLP conditions won't > scale, either up or down, and that "duplicating" BLP > means making an exact copy. That is always a possibility. However, one of the main reasons we chose this experiment is that the BLP web page presents a variety of gas-phase experiments which differ substantially in physical parameters but all are reported to make hydrinos and excess heat. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 22:19:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13254; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:15:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:15:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:15:08 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: negative viscosity In-Reply-To: <34CE7031.191A interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Amr_B1.0.0F3.opipq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Gee, Larry, before you stick your NASA neck out too far, isn't there > some benchtop way to confirm your theory? How about some kind of trick > with the old ball-suspended-in-the-exhaust-of-a-shopvac-effect? Or maybe something involving a centrifuge? You could generate an "L-5 colony" radial pressure gradient, with near-vacuum in the center. Any suspicion that the Ranke/Hilsch tube harnesses negative viscosity effects? ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Jan 27 22:59:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21889; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:53:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:53:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CEEFA1.219F keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:43:13 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting exercise References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oZeo4.0.qL5.fNjpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts John et al! John Schnurer wrote; > Take your DVM and connect it to the input of the op amp. Change > for different settings. Investigate all of scales that do not > measure resistance.---------------------- Reminds me of some fellows who spoke at a Tesla conference several years ago. Their talk was for the last slot on Sunday, about 5PM. Usually at conferences, people start leaving early to fly back home on Sunday so they can be back to work on Monday. I had taken off that Monday so I could stay. These guys said they had found that by injecting various frequencies in wire or into cooling conductive materials, that paths were setup which would have unusually low resistances. They said even overunity was possible but would not say onstage that they had succeeded. Later, I cornered a couple of them and asked a few questions. They would give no further details, so I figured if I gave them some info, they might 'trade out' in exchange...so I started talking about Keely's idea of graduation to produce this 'harmonizing' effect...a kind of low order Bose Einstein Condensate, where all atoms and molecules of a mass are 'biased' or polarized in the same direction, kind of like inducing a crystalline lattice structure on the molecular level. They looked at me very suspiciously, like I had read their private papers or something, and ran away...I called Dan the next day and told him he'd missed this most interesting presentation....although the presenters would give no further details they did say they were working on patents. Something else that makes this interesting....the idea of having an AC supply that is 'tuned' to the load might be further improved if the wire was tuned to further lower resistance, inductance and capacitance. When capacitive reactance = inductive reactance, we have resonance, so electric resistance and magnetic resistance cancel out at that frequency. Alexander Frolov speaks of this and the use of an Avramenko plug so that only one wire is needed for power transmission. For more detail, see; http://keelynet.com/energy/frolov1.txt -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 01:28:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07946; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:24:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:24:04 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: negative viscosity Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:22:34 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cef63d.109728868 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BPa8K2.0.3y1.kalpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:08:51 -0500, Larry Wharton wrote: [snip] >scalar coefficient effect. If we had an air tight sphere here enclosing the >Earth and we got rid of atmosphere above it, then it should start to rotate >on its own. The negative viscosity below it would be pushing it along and >there would be no positive viscosity above it to retard it. [snip] So how about an evacuated box, with one wall replaced by a cylinder free to rotate, that formed an airtight seal with the walls of the box? (Then connect the cylinder shaft to a generator). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 01:28:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07966; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:24:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:24:06 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: negative viscosity Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:22:36 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34cff76b.110030796 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nboQG3.0.Ky1.nalpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:19:02 EST, Puthoff wrote: [snip] >If a negative viscoty situation could be set up in the lab, wouldn't it as >described constitute a perpetual motion machine? > >Hal Puthoff > Isn't the implication just that the second law is broken, not the first? (I.e. the energy is derived from the kinetic energy of the molecules, which presumably results in a lowering of temperature if you make the boundaries of your "system" large enough.) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 02:14:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10767; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:12:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 02:12:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801281010.FAA00101 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Larry Wharton Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 06:04:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: negative viscosity Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"am7fH1.0.9e2.yHmpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 27 Jan 98 at 17:54, vortex-l eskimo.com wrote: > To: Puthoff , vortex-l@eskimo.com > From: Larry Wharton > Subject: Re: negative viscosity > Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com > >In a message dated 1/27/98 11:16:53 AM, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov wrote: > > > >< >there would be no positive viscosity above it to retard it. > >>> > > > >If a negative viscoty situation could be set up in the lab, wouldn't it as > >described constitute a perpetual motion machine? > > > >Hal Puthoff > > Yes that is exactly right. In my upcomming paper I will actually come out > and state something to that effect. When it is ready I think I will put it > on my home page. In a previous version of the paper I took a low key > approach and did not make any radical claims. Still the NASA management > saw the potential controversy and they sent my paper out for an internal > review. The internal reviewer agreed that my entropy conservation equation > was correct but suggested that I take out the few comments about the second > law that I put in becasuse we all know that everything works out there. > Since my main objective is to show that the second law does not work in > higher order, I am forced to actually argue my case or to say nothing. So > I will be going with the radical route. Comment: With _positive_ (normal) viscosity, the mechanical energy ( rho * v^2 / 2) of the macroscopic flow stream "cascades down" into smaller and smaller eddy-currents and vortices, ultimately ending up, at the molecular scale, as _heat_. Positive viscosity represents a sink of energy and a source of entropy (disorder). _Negative_ viscosity would be the reverse of this. In other words, negative viscosity would mean a flow of energy _from_ the random thermal motion of molecules into larger and larger eddy-currents and vortices, ultimately ending up as macroscopic fluid motion that would "push along" a solid object immersed in the flow. Negative viscosity would thus be a source of energy and a sink of entropy. In other words, negative viscosity would be able to convert heat into mechanical motion. Therefore, negative viscosity cannot be called a "perpetual motion machine" because we have discovered its hidden energy source, namely heat. Also: The 2nd Law supposedly forbids negative-viscosity, because it would mean that a state of high disorder could spontaneously organize itself into a state of high order. The current Doctrine of the 2nd Law is that _local_ violations are allowed, but _global_ violations over a large enough control volume are forbidden. (Kinda like politics in Washington.) This _appears_ to rule out the possibility of a self-contained continuously-running machine producing free energy via negative-viscosity. Entropy-balance calculations in fluid mechanics are dangerous because of the _large range of scales_ over which coherent patterns of motion (ie, "eddies") must be considered -- everything from the size of molecules up to macroscopic. The N-S equations are nonlinear, and closed-form solutions for turbulent flow are unknown. Therefore, assumptions must be made to simplify the problem enough to calculate an answer. The pitfall is that the simplifications can introduce artifacts. If Larry Wharton's result survives these pitfalls, it will be a wonderful tool to extract free energy from not just viscosity, but from all the dissipative processes of Nature -- electrical resistance, chemical mixing, etc. Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 04:39:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27399; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:31:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:31:45 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "George" , "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Order of The Tortoise T- Shirts Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 05:27:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2be8$11718020$9291410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"No-FH2.0.0i6.mKopq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry, With Ground-Hog Day near and Spring just around the corner, I think we should be considering the Order of The Tortoise "Turtle-Neck" T-Shirts that you indicated that you would procure? I have a 15 neck size that diminishes to 3 when I stick my neck out. And the Turtle-Neck "stocking" extends out to about a meter or so. If you can line up a supplier {sole source okay) we can display "Harriet" with pride and honor, etc. P.S. No Velcro Please. Best Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 05:34:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00481; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 05:29:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 05:29:41 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34CF22B7.286B945F mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:21:11 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Scott's BLP experiments References: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.5.32.19980127232138.007f2aa0@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"2dPe63.0.R7.4Bppq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack Smith wrote: How does your (wall surface)/(reactor volume) ratio compare with that used by BLP? Scott Little wrote: Mine is substantially larger than theirs...maybe 5 times more surface area per unit volume. ... one of the main reasons we chose this experiment is that the BLP web page presents a variety of gas-phase experiments which differ substantially in physical parameters but all are reported to make hydrinos and excess heat. Hi Scott, Given your surface-to-volume ratio, why don't you abandon the tungsten filament, heat the walls, and see what happens? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 07:54:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13979; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:50:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:50:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128104922.00bfeb80 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:49:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34cd7a14.22788043 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JL5_q1.0.IQ3.mErpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:14 AM 1/24/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >It's the last bit that hides the magic. Exactly how does energy get >out of the black hole to turn the virtual particle into a real one? >(I.e. to repay Heisenberg :). Think for a moment, and you will see it. The particles are twinned. Right? Right. So changes to one particle can affect the quantum state of the other. If you want to say that the energy is delivered by quantum teleportation, or that the Heisenberg energy bank has branches inside and outside the black hole, and the two particles have a joint account, all those ways of visualizing it work. The view I like to use is the Heisenberg bank. Until you pay off the loan, neither particle can be detected, except as a beggar. (You can always give energy to virtual particles until their account is paid, and the accounts are always joint.) A good example are the anniliation radiation gammas from certain processes. The electron of an electron-positron virtual pair is involved in a high-energy process, and now the positron is free to anniliate any handy electon. >Even light can't escape, and that's the fastest form of energy >transfer that we know about. So either a faster form of energy >transfer exists, or this truly creates energy from the vacuum, which >in turn implies that the black hole doesn't in fact evaporate. Huh? Quantum tunnelling is not limited by light speed, and that is a fact verified by experiment. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 09:00:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23724; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:55:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:55:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128115452.00c01cf0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:54:52 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Weight Loss Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34d9cbbe.43703118 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123181454.00b3c720 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980123181454.00b3c720 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"h4O4-1.0.Yo5.FCspq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:11 AM 1/24/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >I would love a reference for this (preferably on-line :). It is a consequence of the emerging picture of the universe. The speed at which you are travelling determines which parts of the universe you can see, and more importantly the age of the parts you see. The temperature of the residue of the big bang can be used as a clock. This has allowed the velocity of our galaxy with respect to the universe as a whole to be determined, and we are travelling toward an area called the great attractor. See: http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/html/fluct.html The dipole anisotropy is the name given to the shift in the cosmic background radiation due to our motion relative to the universe. As you can see from the above illustration, it is pretty large, mostly due to the motion of the galaxy toward the Great Attractor. (The motion of the earth around the sun--66 miles/sec--and that of the sun toward Vega--12 miles/sec --are small by comparison.) http://msowww.anu.edu.au/~heron/Mould/html/mould_heron.html is a good starting point for more detail. Don't you just love the net? Now I alluded to a more important result. Basically, that shut up in a box (elevator per Einstein) the frame of reference of the universe still has meaning. We are back to the ZPE. If it is entirely photons, then moving relative to the ZPE doesn't affect how you see it. Or does it? The same ansiotropy that can be seen in the cosmic background should be detectable in the ZPE. However, the effect will be more difficult to detect. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 09:05:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07631; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:59:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:59:05 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <18193b0c.34cf632f aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:56:13 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: viscosity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"lbgRH2.0.zs1.NFspq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: L Warton writes The negative viscosity is actually true negative viscosity. It has been observed in the case of turbulence but it occurs in the presence of rotation so you cannot take something like a balloon floating in air and have it move through the air without any on its own. Molecular negative viscosity has not been very well researched. I don't know of anyone other ................................. I to believe that viscosity is important and can tell us a lot. Superfluid helium has a very low viscosity..almost if not zero. When passed through a small oriface it cools. This cooling is indicative of a entropy reduction. This effect is, I believe, one of the indicators of the gravitational effects with condensed systems. See the ZPE interaction Znidarsic on Electromagnum. Elektromagnum Index Page, created July 1 Superfluid helium tends to climb the walls of vessels. How does it acquire the energy to overcome the force of gravity? Again I believe that more is going on here than meets the eye. I believe that the gravitational, nuclear, and electromagnetic relationships change at distances within a few millimeters within a superfluid. I have developed a relationship bertween force and gravity. The Source of Inertial and Grav. Mass When climbing superfluid helium is exerting negative pressure. It also exerts negative pressure in a small tube. My analysis of the force gravity/relationship and the negative pressure tells me that entropy can decrease in superfluid systems. The decrease in entropy is compensated for by the induction of a gravitational field. This field goes on to increase the entropy of the rest of the universe. It's a long story but something is going on and it's related to viscosity. Frank Znidarsic Frank Znidarsic. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 09:06:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23861; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199801281655.AA27998 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 09:49:16 -0500 To: Subject: Re: Interesting exercise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5o5zy2.0.eq5.uCspq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John S scribed, >This is an interesting exercise for all you analog folks: > > >Breadboard a simple op amp amplifier, non inverting >.... give it some gain. Use battry power. > >Take your DVM and connect it to the input of the op amp. Change >for different settings. Investigate all of scales that do not measure >resistance. What are we looking for John?? I happen to have a breadboard already setup with a pair of dual ops...[supposed to be a Hodowanec Detector]. What am I looking for -- op amp leakage back to input....aether/ionic pumping? How much gain? I'll hook up the DMM to the input side.....My DMM can check for AC/DC volt/amp, Freq to 15Mhz, capacitance, TTL, diodes, and resistance -- Should I check all of those? Anton Rager Denver, CO arager McGraw-Hill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 09:30:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15411; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:26:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:26:09 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128112707.00a3ca2c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:27:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 8 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"PdMbQ3.0.bm3.lespq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The data for BLP Run 8 is at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run8.html To me, this run demonstrates an imperfect but workable platform for seeking the hydrino excess heat effect. I would like some comments on this issue before proceeding with "live" runs. Mike Shaeffer, I continue to favor your suggestion that the atomic H makes it's own water from Cr and Fe oxides it finds on the stainless steel chamber walls. It certainly explains what I'm seeing. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 09:33:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16470; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:28:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:28:49 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128122834.00bfeb10 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:28:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Stripping by resonance Cc: eachus mitre.org, aki@ix.netcom.com In-Reply-To: <199801241321.HAA21015 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YxVCI2.0.414.Bhspq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:21 AM 1/24/98 -0600, Akira Kawasaki wrote: >>Rich Murray quotes Robert I. Eachus: "Even though the numbers seem to >>indicate otherwise, the proton and neutron in deuterium are very >>loosly bound. In fact, if you flip the spin of one of the nucleons, >>the deuteron falls apart." > Very interesting. If you would, please let me know the source >publication about the 'loosely bound' proton and neutron in deuterium. I don't know of a reference as such. Look for data on the shape and size of the deuterium nucleus. For the experimental data, any search on "self-targeting" should turn up loads of data, mostly red faces from experimenters who relied on the book figure (2224.573 keV) for binding energy. Deuterium can decay to p + p + e- directly (~1.5 MeV), but the real difference from all other nucleii is that the effective distance between the two bosons, and the low electric charge makes it, as I said, effectively loosely bound. Heisenberg's door is open wide enough for weak and EM interactions to supply the missing energy for a "spontaneous" decay. In any case, experience has shown that any paper that assumes that fissioning deuterium requires MeV level center of mass energies is wrong. If you don't believe me, aim a 20 keV beam of deuterons at a metal target, count the neutrons. You don't have to worry about 3 sigma over background, you'll be closer to 3000 sigma. Of course, you will probably up the background by neutron activation--select your target carefully. Don't forget to use plenty of paraffin blocks and wear your film badge. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 10:31:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30502; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:26 -0800 From: tv juno.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:07 -0800 Subject: testatika and capacitor anomolies Message-ID: <19980128.102308.3454.0.tv juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 43,49-51,55-56,63-64,75-78,81-82,85-86,88-89,100, 103-104,107-108,113-114,117-120 Resent-Message-ID: <"fCEWR3.0.RS7.SUtpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:53:48 -1000 Rick Monteverde writes:>Also, I wonder if you couldn't use an electret in a capacitor to force a>rather high set point. Couldn't you then discharge it repeatedly, and >each time it would tend to spring back to that set point - provided the >leads had easy access to a reservoir of charge like you usually have in the >air of ordinary environments?>>- Rick Monteverde>Honolulu, HIHi Rick,This is what intrigues me about the Testatika machine. How about a Wimhurst generator to stimulate the creation of a some extra air ions ?Dr. Pappas, a friend of Stephan Marinov seemed to think that electrets were involved in the testatika machine. Other sources such have said that the alternating plates of what looks like perforated aluminum and copper are used in the large leyden jars and in the between the blocks of what looks like plexiglass between the poles of two horse shoe magnets. See the web page:< http://members.tripod.com/~kilowattfree/ >for some good pictures and diagrams.According to the author of this page, an experiment was shown to a visitor by Paul Baumann the inventor of the Testatika and leader of the Christian community Methernitha. The experiment is basically to place a block of plexiglass or some other clear plastic with a piece of aluminum on one side and copper (or brass) on the other. This capacitor was between the poles of a horse-shoe magnet. When a DVM was connected across the plates it showed 700 volts. The magnet had a coil on it also. Paul Baumann reportedly told the visitor that if you could understand this experiment you would have the key to the testatika. It seems likely that the plastic block was an electret. Seems like an easy experiment to try. Hmmm, It might be worthwhile to use a high voltage power supply to try making some electrets. What do you think Rick ? Your rock experiments might we be related to this.I reserve some skepticism for testatika but I think it is well worth further investigation. Some interesting facts related to testatika that can be found on the internet:The inventor claimed he first started work on its principle 20 years before 1989. I presume 1969.The inventor and other members involved, claim testatika works by the same principle as gives rise to lightning in a rain storm. They claim it works by drawing charges from ions in the surrounding air.( I know that rain drops are charged, because when it start to rain my long wire antennas really put out some sparks. I fried a radio this way. There was no lightning at the time and the coax cable just kept sparking. I know that this is not a smart to build antennas, I did this on purpose for an experiment ala Dr. Moray)One disk of the testatika Wimhurst generator is called cloud and the other is called ground.The leyden jars use perforated sheet metal or screens and appear to be made of aluminum and copper.Some say there are transformers inside the large leyden jars. Stepdown I presume.But this is not certain. There are at least two small and simpler testatika machine that are about the size of a breadbox and produce ( it is claimed) 300 watts. The most famous machine is larger ( 70 cm wide by 40 cm deep by 60 cm tall) and is claimed to produce 3000 watts continuously. There also pictures of a 10 kw and 30 kw version. See web page above and also search with < www.hotbot.com > with keyword "TESTATIKA". The testatika puts out more power on dry days than humid days. The testatika is said to cool the air around it when it is operating. To me this suggests that it is cohering thermal fluctuation energy from the surrounding air molecules. Perhaps it is robbing kinetic energy from charged ions. Unfortunately, there is a lack of details when it come to testing. Both the late Stephan Marinov and a fellow named Albert Hauser from Denmark who sent me some pictures and drawing he made, said they tested the testatika and were convinced that it was really was a free energy (perpetual motion machine). I know that the testatika would like up 1000 watt light bulbs and so forth, but for how long ? Some tests of 5 hours are mentioned but testing details are sparce. Some things that do NOT lend credibility to testatika are the facts that Paul Baumann was in jail for 5 years on charges of having sex with underage girls. A charge that Stephan Marinov, a member of the commune said was a false accusation as do other members of the commune. Also Stephan Marinov did commit suicide by jumping off the second story of a library. He left a letter, called his "Last Scientific Testament" that made it clear that it was not a homicide as some have conjectured. Apparently, Stephan was despondent over the fact that his theory of electrodynamics was proven wrong by an experiment that he himself helped conduct with another physicist. He also apparently suffered from depression. see the web page: < www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_5_5_2.html > for details on this. Did Stephan Marinov really test the testatika well enough to establish that there was no possibility of hidden batteries or other power sources ? If any one has a copy of Stephan Marinov's book, "The Thorny Way of Truth, Vol.6 ", I would very much like to know what it says about the testatika. I think it would be interesting and worthwhile to visit Linden and Methernitha. It would probably be interesting to talk to the locals. Apparently the Methernitha have not shown testatika since late 1980's. This also does not bode well for it's credibility, however I have a copy of a letter that might also explain this without discrediting testatika. A letter from Hans Nieper, a german doctor famous for his unconventional cancer treatments and interest in exotic technology, to Don Kelly, dated June 18, 1989 said "It is, however correct that the Methernitha people have invited several directors of leading Swiss banks to inspect the running and functioning technologies of the converter (testatika). This has resulted in major concerns on the swiss bank levels since it makes nuclear and also fossil energy energy outdated - somewhen, but it will happen." and in another letter Nieper says that as a result of these meetings consequences will surely follow. It makes me wonder if the "bankers" gave Methernitha and Paul Baumann an "offer they could'nt refuse." Perhaps the principle of testatika is the same as the "radiant energy device" of Dr. T H Moray. It also produced ozone, "ran cool", used ionized gasses, and used very high voltages. If the testatika is really what Methernitha claims, the underlying principle is probably simple and obvious (after you understand it), but the practical application becomes somewhat more complicated in the same way that "burning and expanding gasses can push on things" is the principle of an internal combustion engine. Is there anyone in this group or otherwise that has actually seen the testatika and tested it ? I would be very interested in your additional comments. Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 10:54:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11449; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:48:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:48:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re; BLP Run 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:42:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2c1c$7f330b40$9291410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vFG0A1.0.lo2.ortpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice Going, Scott If the water cycle is the culprit responsible for the accelerated filament erosion, a shot or two of H2 during cartridge heater bakeout might buy some extra filament time? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 11:47:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19722; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:41:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:41:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128144150.00c0c890 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:41:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199801252017.MAA04718 slave1.aa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lPK6T2.0.1q4.ldupq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:17 PM 1/25/98 -0800, Michael T Huffman wrote: >On 1/20/98, Robert Eachus wrote: >> Atomic hydrogen is also known as monoatomic hydrogen, hydrogen atoms not >>in molecules. One of the weirdest phenomena in science is that it is >>stable as a liquid (at about 17 degrees K) but burns to form H2 at the >>hottest temperature of any purely chemical reaction. > >Bob, If this was such a well known fact in science, 1.)What was the big >fuss about the sublimation of tungsten when using Brown's Gas (or Rhodes Gas >or whatever). It seems to me that this would have been pointed out fairly >quickly to those who were claiming "magic". But Brown's gas whatever it is, contains oxygen. The temperature you can get from a oxy/hydrogen torch is limited by the disassociation of water at high temperatures. In fact, there is almost no water in the Space Shuttle main engine exhaust until well downstream, just OH-, H+, and H2 with a little H3+ for flavor. (In fact, I looked into boosting the efficiency of the S4B Saturn stage by using ozone instead of oxygen. Expensive, but doable for about a 3% boost in Isp. But the boost comes entirely from lower average molecular weight, the mass flow and temperature stay the same.) > 2.) How can monoatomic hydrogen >be condensed into a liquid without first forming H2? Dunno, literally, don't think it can. The formula for creating it, and with only a few percent yield, is to condense it on hydrogen slush at low pressure. You then separate the liguid to get pure mono-H. (Anyone who has the equipment to try this already knows more than I can write here about safety.) >Is it possible that this could also explain the sonoluminescence, >cavitation, and "Casimir Force" phenomena which are also claiming to be OU? >Is it possible that the Casimir Force in a vacuum is just the last remnants >of interstitial lattice, monoatomic hydrogen from one plate or bubble wall >recombining with the same in the other? Definitely not. > Since he used to weld >on hot days without a shirt, and would just swear alot when the slag hit >him, I figured that he that he was just plain nuts. "Safety Precautions?!? >Aww #$%^! Those are for GIRLS!!" he would yell as he would strike his arc. He might not be as nuts as you think. I found anything other than leather to be negative protection when welding. (Other than welder's mask of course.) But if he didn't wear leather gloves and boots, he was crazy. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:07:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26394; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:03:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:03:48 -0800 Message-ID: <34CF8F26.746A interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:03:50 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re; BLP Run 8 References: <01bd2c1c$7f330b40$9291410c default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vJyQM2.0.CS6.Yyupq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Nice Going, Scott > > If the water cycle is the culprit responsible > for the accelerated filament erosion, a shot > or two of H2 during cartridge heater bakeout might buy some extra filament > time? > Fred, isn't there some kind of glow-discharge cleaning that Scott could use during the period you refered to above? I suppose it might mean inserting an extra electrode/filiment insulated for a few kilovolts above ground. I guess I'm thinking of filling the whole darn chamber with a nice H2 glow discharge during bake-out and pump down. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:29:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27209; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:24:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:24:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128152333.00adfc30 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:23:33 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: capacitors Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <2248cb4a.34cd596e aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"fgu8J.0.0f6.oFvpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:50 PM 1/26/98 EST, FZNIDARSIC wrote: >I have worked with may capacitors. None tend to build a charge from nothing. >Most will RECOVER some charge after being discharged. This charge leaks out >of the dielectric back onto the plates. This effect was of some concern in >the utility industry. Long high voltage insulated cables tend also to recover >some charge after being disconnected and discharged. I can't remember but I >believe that some one some where was killed by this recovered charge. From a >cable on a reel if my memory serves me correctly. Nothing OU here just >charge leakage. Did I say anything about OU? More seriously, I have seen the recovered charge effect you talk about, and I have also seen "overrun" where a discharged capacitor bank gains an opposite charge usually from inductance in the circut causing ringing, and the circut being interrupted when the current reaches zero. But the effect I was talking about is usually the same one that you feel when you touch the doorknob on a winter's day--electrostatic generation. In the case I mentioned, though, it was a neat space charge effect, once we sorted it out. The bank had, due to the way it was connected/designed wires leading up from one side of the caps. These connected with the physical crowbar circut, when it was engaged. But blow air over them, and electrons streaming off the tips generated a charge. We joked about getting bigger fans and eliminating the charging circut, but instead threaded the wire ends and put ball shaped cap nuts on to eliminate the problem. (The reason for designing things this way was that the individual capacitors each had a knife switch to allow us to switch it into or out of the bank. We wanted the crowbar to pyhsically short all the capacitors. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:50:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29753; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:45:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:45:01 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:43:34 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd2c2d$66e62070$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5u_28.0.nG7.BZvpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wednesday, January 28, 1998 12:46 PM Scott Little wrote: :Mike Shaeffer, I continue to favor your suggestion that the atomic H makes :it's own water from Cr and Fe oxides it finds on the stainless steel :chamber walls. It certainly explains what I'm seeing. This seems to make sense. The BLP implementation shows a quartz tube around the active elements (the At-Mar Glass Lamp). Would SiO2 be immune to decomposition by hydrogen atoms ? There are various methods for coating the inside stainless surfaces with a thin coating of SiO2. SiO2 coatings are used in many plasma display devices to inhibit glass decomposition. The BLP drawings also show the catalyst placed quite near the filament. A remaining problem may be providing adequate catalyst concentration. A separate heater for the catalyst would provide better control of catalyst availability. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 12:54:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00410; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:49:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:49:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980128154753.00c0c290 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:47:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19980126.201223.12158.4.tv juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980126114627.00aa52c0 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"z8dIn3.0.H6.scvpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:12 PM 1/26/98 -0800, Tim D Vaughan wrote: >What is the best material and method for creating an electret ? Don't know, I've only used a high melting point wax. You have to hold a charge on the plates while the wax solidifies. There was an article in SciAm in the Amateur Scientist many years back on how to make them. >Would plexiglass work as well or better than wax ? I guess it might, but you would have to melt it. And as I remember plexiglass, that is not fun. >Are you saying that an electret with metal plates on both sides would >buid up charge and then could be discharched repeatedly ? Almost by definition. Electrets are popular in headphones and microphones, since they are lighter than magnets. > What is the source of energy ? The source of energy is the movement of the screwdriver (or whatever you use to complete the circut) in the electric field. No magic here, just classic physics. This is one reason why some large oil-filled capacitors are so dangerous, especially in cold weather. If the oil has solidified or jelled with a memory of a charge, the capacitor can read zero volts but close the circut the wrong way and get knocked on your can. > Why do you think the barrier had this effect ? Air movement ? Magnetic > field ? Air movement. I remembered that someone determined later that the real culprit was sharp points on the contacts for the crowbar, and dry air. Blow air over a needle, and it will gain a negative charge.... Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 14:07:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24122; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:00:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:00:25 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980128112707.00a3ca2c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:00:41 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 Resent-Message-ID: <"TJxp41.0.pu5.tfwpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stenger suggested: Fred, isn't there some kind of glow-discharge cleaning that Scott could use during the period you refered to above? I suppose it might mean inserting an extra electrode/filiment insulated for a few kilovolts above ground. I guess I'm thinking of filling the whole darn chamber with a nice H2 glow discharge during bake-out and pump down. Yes, glow discharge cleaning is a known technique---actually a set of techniques, because it depends on what one is trying to clean and for what end. In this case, one would run the chamber wall (and everything inside connected elected electrically to it) as the cathode. Tt would be best to insert a separate anode; it only has to be a few % of the cathode area. First pump and bake the system; you don't want to run the glow until it is pretty clean, because a glow discharge IMPLANTS ions into the cathode, and you don't want it to implant the same surface crud it is knocking off. Start the glow with gas at a pressure that makes starting easy, probably between 1 and 10 torr. Then, reduce pressure until the glow expands and covers all the cathode (wall). This is the so-called 'abnormal' glow regime. If you can't see the glow, reduce pressure until the anode-cathode voltage rises substantially, say by about 100 V, but not so low pressure that the glow goes out. For operating stability, you need a constant current DC supply, or a high voltagae supply of about 1 kV with a large ballast resistor between it and the anode. Keep gas flowing slowly and the pump running and the bake temperature up---you want to get the water vapor _out_ of the system. I don't know the best recipe. I would use high purity Ar or He first, because the heavier ions are more effective at knocking stuff off the cathode surface. If one can afford to be scientific, one uses a mass spectrometer in the exhaust line to watch the various molecular and molecular fragment mass concentrations decrease. You don't want to continue this so long that you knock off many metal wall atoms, though, because they will coat parts of yiour apparatus. Next, I would switch to hydrogen to get as much oxygen as possible off the surface, as H2O. Incidently, at this stage it is not so much the hydrogen ions that do the work but the incidental H atoms produced in the gas by the discharge. As we all know, H atoms are quite reactive. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 14:42:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05965; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:37:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:37:53 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34CFB33A.8754A5BD ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:37:46 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: viscosity References: <18193b0c.34cf632f aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i8RBK3.0.2T1._Cxpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: FZNIDARSIC wrote: > When climbing superfluid helium is exerting negative pressure. It also exerts > negative pressure in a small tube. My analysis of the force > gravity/relationship and the negative pressure tells me that entropy can > decrease in superfluid systems. The decrease in entropy is compensated for by > the induction of a gravitational field. This field goes on to increase the > entropy of the rest of the universe. It's a long story but something is going > on and it's related to viscosity. WARNING! Dangerous speculation ahead, fasten safety belts....... 8^) The spinning disk gravity modification experiments used super-cooling too. Perhaps extreme energy states are the common denominator in the "negative pressure" events in both instances. These super-fluid, super-conducting, and/or super-cooled states may only be vehicles or facilitators. Consider a super-cooled object as negative energy volume (massive heat energy removed). The naturally induced influx of thermal energy to equalize the large temperature gradient between the object and the environment may be dragging more energy in with it similar in principle to molecular adhesion. Energy adhesion? The unnatural excess or super-saturation causing the observed behaviors. Given this model, as the temperature equalizes and influx slows down, containment is lost and so is the effect. Temporary, localized, limited, entropy reversal with no 1st or 2nd law violations. Energy is sloshed around, but ultimately conserved. Negative viscosity? Sure would look like it. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 14:56:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09749; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:49:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:49:29 -0800 From: tv juno.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:41:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Chris Tinsley's capacitor experiments Message-ID: <19980128.144148.3454.3.tv juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980126114627.00aa52c0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980128154753.00c0c290 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,9-15,17-21,23-24,28-29,31-34,36-37,40-45,47-48,50-53 Resent-Message-ID: <"J0UZu.0.rN2.qNxpq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Tim ( tv juno.com ) >At 08:12 PM 1/26/98 -0800, Tim D Vaughan wrote: >>Are you saying that an electret with metal plates on both sides would >>buid up charge and then could be discharched repeatedly ? > On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:47:53 -0500 "Robert I. Eachus" writes: > Almost by definition. Electrets are popular in headphones and >microphones, since they are lighter than magnets. > >> What is the source of energy ? > > The source of energy is the movement of the screwdriver (or >whatever you use to complete the circut) in the electric field. No magic here, >just classic physics. > Robert I. Eachus > It is possible to build a switch that requires very little energy to close. However, I would think by conventional physical wisdom that the only way you could use a an electret to produce current pulse would be to charge capacitor plates by induction. In other words do the following operations: 1. Move the capacitor plates close to the charged surfaces of the electret on opposite sides of the electret. (The elecret will pull the plate toward it due to induced charge) 2. Connect the plates to a source of charge, such as the earth and or an antenna. 3. Pull the plates away from the charged surface (this requires work because the plates are attracted to the surfaces of the electret, even more than before) 4. Discharge the plates and utilize the energy gained. 5. Start the cycle over again. Classicly, this is not a free energy scheme. it converts mechanical work to electrical energy. However, what if electric fields on metals could extract energy from the kinetic energy of ions ? Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 15:32:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29101; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:21:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:21:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Dino" To: Subject: food free radical sterilisation Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:43:30 +1030 Message-ID: <01bd2b25$5cb9b2a0$64ee38cb default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD2B7D.5F47F6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"cxiK9.0.W67.-rxpq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD2B7D.5F47F6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can any one help wuith information and links for this topic ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD2B7D.5F47F6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can any one help wuith information = and links for=20 this topic
------=_NextPart_000_0050_01BD2B7D.5F47F6A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 16:42:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00904; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:35:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:35:29 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Re; BLP Run 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 14:16:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2c32$01091000$4f83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"__sFC2.0.PD.9xypq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, January 28, 1998 1:24 PM Subject: Re: Re; BLP Run 8 >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >> Nice Going, Scott >> >> If the water cycle is the culprit responsible >> for the accelerated filament erosion, a shot >> or two of H2 during cartridge heater bakeout might buy some extra filament >> time? >> > >Fred, isn't there some kind of glow-discharge cleaning that Scott >could use during the period you refered to above? I suppose it might >mean inserting an extra electrode/filiment insulated for a few kilovolts >above ground. I guess I'm thinking of filling the whole darn chamber >with a nice H2 glow discharge during bake-out and pump down. Good idea, Frank. The ceramic thermocouple post and wires would probably do it. A couple of kilovolts or less at a milliamp or less (current limiting resistor)at 2 torr or so should make a a nice hydrogen glow discharge if the thermocouple wires are disconnected from ground and made the anode. This gives H+ ions and H a chance to clean things up. Stainless steels "passivate" as Michael says by a buildup of surface oxygen-MOx these go to pot when hydrogen enters the picture. The passivation oxygen for pure iron is about 20 angstroms (3E-7 grams/cm^2). Nickel at 200 C runs about the same. most likely the 18-8s with 70% iron are loaded with O2 that the hydrogen can react with. These things have been quantified using vacuum-gas microbalances for gas reaction studies. My experience was with pure Ni-NiOx with Hydrogen reduction for potassium heat pipes that ran at 600 C or less. Fun stuff. Let in Hydrogen and you"re gonna "make water". :-) The Hydrogen "Purge" might do it though. Regards, Frederick > >Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 16:43:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01007; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:35:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:35:40 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:01:01 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2c38$38d4c1e0$4f83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9f7z_.0._E.Mxypq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Mills used a Hydrogen purge before turning on the filament. This would react with the "available"Oxygen on the SS walls: xH2 + SSOx = SS + x H2O, and reduce the KNO3: 7 H2 + 2 KNO3 ---> 2 KH + N2 + 6 H2O This would leave the unstable KH <---> 2 K + H2 to do what he wanted it to do after the H2O was pumped out of the system: K + W (hot) ---> K+ then K+ + H2 <----> KH + H+. Not sure, but it would explain the 45 hour test run. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 18:12:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23796; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:57:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:57:28 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <989158f7.34cfe1a2 aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:55:44 EST To: eachus mitre.org, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re: Weight Loss Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Resent-Message-ID: <"6LL0O3.0.Zp5.08-pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 1/28/98 11:12:04 AM, eachus mitre.org wrote: <> Motion through the ZPE at constant velocity is not detectable, since the ZPE is Lorentz invariant. However, acceleration thru the ZPE is detectable, the resulting distortion of the spectral distribution leading to the Davies-Unruh effect (acceleration thru the ZPE causes a temperature component to emerge). Also, in the work of myself and co-workers Haisch and Rueda, a drag force (inertia) is another consequence of acceleration thru the ZPE (Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff, Phys Rev A, vol 49, p. 678, 1994). Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 18:26:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28881; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:19:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:19:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: Free Radical Sterilization Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:11:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2c5b$473d7ce0$8093410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"sF2mB1.0.537.cS-pq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dino, The Vapor Hydrogen Peroxide (VHP) sterilizer works better than liquid Hydrogen Peroxide because the HO-OH molecule is broken releasing the two OH free radicals. The breaking of the HO-OH bond is accomplished by impinging a H2O2-water solution on a hot surface in a sterilizing chamber that is pressurized at 10 torr or less and about 100 deg F, so the Radicals have a decent lifetime and can reach and destroy the pathogens if concentrated to 1,000 ppm or so. It is very effective and can be used to sterilize Box-Car loads of medical materials. I think a modified Brown's Gas Generator could do about the same thing, possibly cheaper. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 18:52:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02167; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:44:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 18:44:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:37:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting exercise In-Reply-To: <199801281655.AA27998 interlock.mgh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hYque3.0.nX.8q-pq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You are looking for: bias current of meter FROM the meter and if you use scope /.... AC FROM the meter Electronic meters are SOURCES of noise and currents... or can be. See notes... On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 arager mcgraw-hill.com wrote: > > > > John S scribed, > >This is an interesting exercise for all you analog folks: > > > > > >Breadboard a simple op amp amplifier, non inverting > >.... give it some gain. Use battry power. > > > >Take your DVM and connect it to the input of the op amp. Change > >for different settings. Investigate all of scales that do not measure > >resistance. > > What are we looking for John?? I happen to have a breadboard already setup > with a pair of dual ops...[supposed to be a Hodowanec Detector]. What am I > looking for -- op amp leakage back to input....aether/ionic pumping? What the heck is this Aether pumping... ?!? You are looking to see if you electronic DVM MAKES NOISE or contributes currents.... Even if it had a REAL GOOD FET as the front end... it would make currents. Swap the leads.... try different ranges... and all the while watch the output of the op amps. Try gains of 1, 5, 10 ,50 ,100 and so on... How > much gain? I'll hook up the DMM to the input side.....My DMM can check for > AC/DC volt/amp, Freq to 15Mhz, capacitance, TTL, diodes, and resistance -- > Should I check all of those? YEP!!! And if you have a 'cheapo' one ... do it too. > You are not using the meter to make a measurement.... you are measuring the METER!!! Look at the output of the op amps with scope.... or another meter. > Anton Rager > Denver, CO > arager McGraw-Hill.com > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 21:36:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28045; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:31:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:31:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D01178.5A59 skylink.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: capacitors (Electrets) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KSG2S3.0.1s6.lG1qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Also, I wonder if you couldn't use an electret in a capacitor to force a > rather high set point. Couldn't you then discharge it repeatedly, and each > time it would tend to spring back to that set point - provided the leads > had easy access to a reservoir of charge like you usually have in the air > of ordinary environments? Just as you can get free energy once with a permanent magnet -- in order for one time picking up of a magnetic object or for charging a magnetic air gap, in the direct electric/magnetic analogy it is the same thing with an electret. But there may be some important and possibly useful differences in the electret-magnet analogy. The formula for permeance of an air gap in a magnetic circuit, meausured in units of magnetic charge per ampere (webers per mmf), is (mu0)(A)/(L). It has exactly the same form and is directly analogous to the capacitance of an air gap in an electric circuit, measured in units of coulombs per volt, and having the formula (epsilon0)(A)/(L). We don't normally think of a good magnetic material, (having a very high value of permeability which in simple problems is often set equal to infinity), as a being a magnetic circuit conductor. Because of the limited magnetic flux capacity (saturation) of magnetic materials, in practice we have to build them big and thick. Hence they do not look much like circuit conductor wires. Nor are we much used to the idea of thinking of the electrical flux capacity, or polarizability of a copper wire, which has essentially an infinite electrical permittivity and unlimited capacity to carry electric flux. In addition to the limited flux capacity (saturation) of magnetic circuit conductors compared with the nearly infinite flux capacity of electrical circuit conductors. There are some other important differences in the electret/magnet circuit analogy. One difference, as Rick points out above, is the relative ready abundance of electric charge carriers, and the nearly complete non-availability of magnetic charge carriers. Another difference is that it is relatively easy to de-magnetize a permanent magnet, and nearly impossible to de-electrify an electret. Some interesting things may happen when an electret is moving or spinning. There is a European patent, which was discussed on this list previously, for an antigravity device based on rapidly spinning one plate of a capcitor having an electret (permanently charged) dielectric. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 22:36:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07388; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:32:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:32:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D03D46.329C keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:26:46 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz CC: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: BAT Info X-URL: http://internetstockmarket.com/news/index.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"605Al.0.Ip1.g92qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Folks! Recently, someone posted a note about BAAT Corporation successfully achieving 92 mpg from a bolt on engine modification. I haven't seen anyone post any further info, so here is a short description that includes the URL for their homepage... ~ PUBLIC OFFERINGS ~ CAPITAL REQUESTS IN EXCESS OF $250 MILLION ~ BAT Battery Automated Transportation $ 10,000,000.00 Contact: Bill Wason or Mike Jensen both of BAT International, tel Burbank, California 001 818 565-5555. This URL has a short description and includes the BAAT URL http://www.internetstockexchange.net/corpprof/b/baat.html -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Jan 28 22:41:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21079; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:37:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:37:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34D0163D.95 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:40:13 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Chubb: Amer Phys Soc abstract concerning Aneutronic, Radiationless Fusion Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"HcZYL3.0.B95.qE2qq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil (ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil [132.250.112.13]) by holland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA03139 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil; id AA13982; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:00:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:00:57 -0500 From: Scott Chubb Message-Id: <9801281500.AA13982 ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil> To: rmforall earthlink.net Subject: Amer Phys Soc abstract concerning Aneutronic, Radiationless Fusion From: Scott Chubb To: Please distribute to interested parties Subj: APS March Meeting/WEB information concerning aneutronic radiationless fusion 1. At the March Meeting, Russ George will present important evidence, not available in 1989, of aneutronic, radiationless nuclear fusion through a process in which cavitating bubbles collide with a metal substrate. 2. The underlying physics associated with this finding, which seems to be tied to the requirement of high D-Loading in a metal lattice, supports the ideas of alternative forms of fusion, including those suggested by Fleischmann and Pons, and Arata and Zhang, in which no high energy by-products are observed in the governing reactions. 3. You can view George's abstact and the associated links to his own homepage, either directly, at "http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonof.html" or through the hypertext links in his abstract "http://aps.org/BAPSMAR98/abs/S4170002.html" as it is listed in the on-line version of the March Meeting Bulletin of the APS. (You can also find this reference simply by going to the APS homepage, and using the hypertext links to find the March Meeting Bulletin, followed by the link to George.) 4. His talk is scheduled for Thursday morning, 19 March, session U26.02. 5. I hope that you and your colleagues will look at Russ George's homepage and/or attend his talk. 6. Talbot Chubb and I have submitted abstracts that provide a theoretical framework (associated with cooperative phenomena) for understanding Russ George's results. These abstracts and George's talk are simultaneously listed in the on-line version of the Bulletin. 7. Clearly, in view of George's results, the kinds of observations made by Arata and Zhang and others (including Fleischmann and Pons) of excess heat and 4He should be taken more seriously. And as objective scientists, we should attempt to change the present pyrhia-like climate concerning positive Cold Fusion-like results. 8. Talbot Chubb and I will be giving invited talks concerning Aneutronic, Radiationless Nuclear Fusion in Metal Deuterides at the June meeting of the American Nuclear Society. I am including a copy of my abstract immediately below. Aneutronic, Radiationless Nuclear Fusion in Metal Deuterides at Absolute Zero Scott R. Chubb, Talbot A. Chubb, Oakton International Corporation, Arlington, VA, USA We argue that much of the debate concerning "Cold Fusion" (CF) has resulted from the misguided assumption that CF somehow must mimic a colder version of conventional fusion. Instead we suggest that CF is the result of phenomena that are most intense at absolute temperature T equal to zero, and that these effects persist at room temperature. This alternative approach makes good physical sense because it is unreasonable to believe that particle-particle collisions can provide a mechanism for over-coming the conventional "Coulomb Barrier" at room temperature as many have assumed1. Instead, we suggest that the possible avenues to fusion are the result of coherent, many-body effects that are tied to the underlying, well-known rules of solid-state physics as they apply to periodically ordered lattices. In particular, solids are distinctly different from plasma's or high temperature environments that are usually associated with conventional fusion. Solids, at room temperature, "do not like" disruption. High temperature plasma's (HTP's) "like" disruption. Periodically ordered solids can coherently absorb momentum, all at once at a point, discontinuously, and through recoil processes in which the solid, as a whole, moves in response to a collision at an isolated location. As a result, in ordered solids, very often not only is the initial momentum of "colliding" particles not conserved by the particles during "collisions," but at low/intermediate temperatures, these kinds of "collisions" play a dominant role in the following important effects: 1. the conduction of heat and electricity[2], 2. diffraction of neutrons, electrons and X-rays[3], and 3. the Mossbauer effect[4]. Because the idealized limit of stoichiometric PdD is periodically ordered, not only is there reason to believe, as we have discussed previously[5], that further D-loading will result in the occupation of ion band states by D-nuclei, it is probable that the potential nuclear reactions and transport of ion band state D will be dominated by these kinds of interactions. When these non-momentum conserving processes involve indistinguishable particles (as in the case of D) and occur completely elastically, distinctly quantum mechanical forms of coherent interaction become possible in which periodic order is preserved, and it can become "virtually" impossible to identify both the location of the interaction and the participating entities involved with the resulting release of energy[5,6,7]. The paper provides a brief tutorial that summarizes the origin of this interaction, using well-known examples cited from solid state physics, and an overview of the predictions of the associated Lattice Induced Nuclear Chemistry (LINC) theory of Cold Fusion[6]. Because in the LINC theory6 of Pons-Fleischmann Cold Fusion (PFCF), deuterium nuclei occupy ion band states, analogous to the band states occupied by electrons, many of the low temperature anomalies that electrons exhibit have counterparts in LINC. For example, just as electrons in ordered metals always exhibit superconductivity at T=0, LINC predicts that the ion band state (IBS) deuterons D+ exhibit superconductivity. Similarly, just as the mean free paths that are associated with heat transport and quantum diffusion of electrons become infinite, the comparable IBS D+ mean free paths also become infinite. Also, a number of important results of the LINC theory6 of PFCF become rigorous7 in the limit of absolute zero temperature (T=0). These include: 1. the bosons-in and bosons-out rule[7] and its generalization[8] (which states that in PFCF only ground-state to ground-state nuclear transitions are allowed), and 2. the requirement that energy and by-product release occur at the crystal boundaries. Although considerable modification in the design of PFCF types of experiments is necessary as T->0, a number of potentially important, additional coherent effects are predicted by LINC that should be observable in this regime. To prove the reality of PFCF-related phenomena, as a consequence, it may be useful to consider conducting modified, PFCF-like experiments at low T. In particular, the many-body ion band state D and 4He populations, which are both bosonic, could both exhibit coherent effects associated with the required super-conducting (SC) behavior that occurs at T=0. Because the concentrations of these species are small, it may not be possible to identify direct effects on conductivity from the SC phases of these species. (It should be noted, however, that these kinds of effects could explain the known isotopic anomaly that occurs when D is substituted for H in PdH and the SC transition temperature Tc increases from 9.5oK to 11.5o K 10.) On the other hand, SC-induced magnetic phenomena (Meissner and Josephson effects) could be pronounced. Optimal crystal sizes (involving ~109 unit cells) for supporting coherent effects are predicted by the theory9. As discussed in a second abstract11, it is also possible for coherent interaction to extend beyond the boundaries of individual crystals. These results suggest that optimal geometries consisting of arrays of small crystallites could be used to enhance the magnetic effects, and because D is magnetic, magnetic effects from SC behavior could be anisotropic. An overview of these and other "really Cold, Cold Fusion effects" is presented. [1]D. Lindley, "The Embarassment of Cold Fusion," NATURE, 344, 376 (1989). [2]N.W. Ashkroft and N.D. Mermin, Solid State Physics,(Harcourt Brace, Orlando, 1976), chapter 26. [3] ibid, pp 364-366. ibid, pp 470-480. [4]J. Schwinger, Trans Fusion Tech 26, xvi (1994). [5]T. A. and S. R. Chubb , Fusion Technology, 20, 93, (1991). [6]S.R. Chubb and T.A. Chubb, Bull of the APS, 42, #1, 678 (1997). [7]S. R. and T. A. Chubb, Fusion Technology, 24, 403, (1993). [8]S. R. and T. A. Chubb, in The Sixth International Conference on Cold Fusion Proceedings,(ed. Okakamoto, NHE Program, Institute of Applied Energy, MITI, Tokyo, 1997), pp 315-318. [9]T. A. and S. R. Chubb, ibid, pp 417-424. [10]Wicke, E. and Brodowsky, H., in Hydrogen in Metals II (eds Alefeld, G. and Vlkl, J.) 73 (Springer, Berlin, 1978). [11]T. A. and S. R. Chubb, "Arguments for Pressure-Controlled Deuterium Induced Nuclear Fusion Tests," abstract this meeting. -- Dr. Scott Chubb Code 7252 Naval Research Laboratory Washington, DC 20375-5351 PHONE: 202-767-5270, FAX: 202-767-3303 EMAIL: chubb ccf.nrl.navy.mil or chubb@neptune.nrl.navy.mil From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 04:12:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA14211; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 04:08:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 04:08:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D07122.982C81DD ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:08:10 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz Subject: I need a switch can you help? IMPORTANT! X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-nG2w.0.qT3.F57qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I need a *switching device sometimes called a "chopper" that has low resistance that can take more that 1 amp (I really need about 10 amps) and an adjustable frequency, I would like a range of at least 50>100hz but I am flexible and I really need an adjustable pulse width or one that is open about half the time. This is a very important part of a promising experiment I am trying, If you know of a place that makes such a switching device or of a model number ot anything please respond, I need a current that seems far to high for a 555 circuit or anything that I know like it and so I am expecting a rotating switch is what I will find. If you have any ideas of how I could make one, know were I should look or what I should by please respond. * A component of a circuit that will make and break the circuit so that a pulsed DC will result from a constant voltage source. Thank you in advance, John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 05:14:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25893; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 05:08:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 05:08:18 -0800 (PST) From: aki ix.netcom.com Message-ID: <34D07E77.887 ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 05:04:55 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I need a switch can you help? IMPORTANT! References: <34D07122.982C81DD ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_hTYj.0.SK6._y7qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > I need a *switching device sometimes called a "chopper" that has low > resistance that can take more that 1 amp (I really need about 10 amps) > and an adjustable frequency, I would like a range of at least 50>100hz > but I am flexible and I really need an adjustable pulse width or one > that is open about half the time. Quick and dirty and temporary: Well, you might try feeding appropriate AC power across the DC coil that runs a mechanical relay switch. You probably can find it at Radio Shack or some electronic supply shop. The switch contacts can be found for ten amp capacities. -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 05:52:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03080; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 05:48:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 05:48:52 -0800 (PST) From: Tstolper aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:47:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980129084707_-995286197 mrin53> To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Farewell Resent-Message-ID: <"i9SF4.0.0m.1Z8qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Participating in Vortex-L has been interesting and educational, but I'm getting too snowed under with various matters to continue, at least for now. Good luck. We can all use it. Signing Off, Tom Stolper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 06:25:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09106; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 06:18:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 06:18:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801291414.JAA12251 gateway.minimal.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:14:04 -0500 From: rmuha minimal.com (ralph muha) To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: [from s.p.r] Gravity with quaternions Organization: minimal, limited Resent-Message-ID: <"5FG2n1.0.7E2.y-8qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: : From: sweetser world.std.com (Doug B Sweetser) : Newsgroups: sci.physics.research : Subject: Gravity with quaternions : Date: 28 Jan 1998 18:52:07 -0800 : : Hello: : : In this post, I will propose a new theory of gravity based on : quaternion operators and potentials. Because the constraints on any : theory of gravity are so tight, I feel I have no choices to make, just : tight spots to slip through. Some of the consequences will be : examined that make this proposal different from general relativity : even in the classical region (good-bye dark matter??). : : A proposal for gravity should satisfy the following three constraints: : : 1. For a classical point mass, reduces to Newton's : law of gravity, F = - G m m'/r^2. : 2. The form should be manifestly covariant under a Lorentz : transformation. : 3. The law should work with quantum mechanics. : : Electromagnetism can pass through classical, relativistic, and : quantum constraints. Therefore, to achieve similar goals, a theory of : gravity could clone the structure of electromagnetic theory to the : letter. The laws governing electromagnetism--the Lorentz force and : the Maxwell equations--can be written as operators acting on the : same 4-potential. : : The Lorentz force : : F = e ([d/dt, Del]* (phi, A)* (g, gb)* - (g, gb)* [d/dt, Del](phi, A))/2 : ------------ ------- ------- ----------- : : = e (-gb.dA/dt - gb.Del phi, -g dA/dt - g Del phi + gbx(DelxA)) : : : The Maxwell equations : : [(d/dt, Del)^2 + (d/dt, Del)*^2] (phi, A)/2 : -------------------------------- : : = (d^2 phi/dt^2 - Del^2 phi - Del.(DelxA), : d^2 A /dt^2 + Delx(DelxA) - Del(Del.A) + Delx(Del phi)) : : = (d^2 phi/dt^2 - Del^2 phi, d^2 A/dt^2 - Del^2 A) : : = (rho, J) c = 1 : : If the underlined operators act on a different potential, then : equations with the same properties would be created that apply to : that different potential. : : A potential for gravity should satisfy the following three constraints. : : 1. Apply to all particles, including light, reducing to : mass in the classical limit. : 2. Be unidirectional. : 3. Involve curvature in some way. : : Every particle has a 4-momentum, composed of the scalar energy E : and the 3-momentum P. The mass of a particle in flat spacetime is : the scalar part of the 4-momentum squared. : : (E, P)^2 = (E^2 - P^2, 2 E P) : : Define flat spacetime operationally: when the scalar of the square of : a quaternion--scalar(q^2)--is the scalar squared minus the 3-vector : squared--scalar(q)^2 - vector(q)^2--then spacetime is flat. In flat : spacetime, the mass of two particles is the sum. : : (E, P)^2 + (E', P')^2 = (E^2 - P^2, 2 E P) + (E'^2 - P'^2, 2 E' P') : : = (m^2 + m'^2, 2 (E P + E' P')) : : If we want to be consistent in calculating the mass, add the two 4- : momenta together first and then square. : : (E + E', P + P')^2 = (E^2 - P^2 + E'^2 - P'^2 + 2(E E' - P P'), : 2 (E P + E' P' + E P' + P E' + PxP') : : = (m^2 + m'^2 + 2(E E' - P P'), 2 (E P + E' P' + E P' + P E' + PxP')) : -------------- ------------------ : : The underlined scalar term indicates that spacetime containing two : particles in it is no longer flat. The scalar term is unidirectional. : : for real particles, E > P and E' > P', so : : E E' - P P' > 0 : : If E >> P and E' >> P', then E E' - P P' ~= m m'. Thus the field : : 2 (E E' - P P', E P' + P E' + PxP') : : has the three properties required of a gravitational field. : : Generate the quaternion laws of gravity by having the operators act : on the gravitational field. : : the Lorentz gravitational force : : F = [d/dt, Del]* (E E' - P P', E P' + P E' + PxP')* (g, gb)* : - (g, gb)* [d/dt, Del] (E E' - P P', E P' + P E' + PxP') : : = (-gb.d(E P' + P E' + PxP')/dt - gb.Del (E E' - P P'), : : -g d(E P' + P E' + PxP')/dt - g Del (E E' - P P') : : + gbx(Delx(E P' + P E' + PxP'))) : : : the Maxwell gravitational wave equations : : [(d/dt, Del)^2 + (d/dt, Del)*^2] (E E' - P P', E P' + P E' + PxP') : : = (d^2 (E E' - P P')/dt^2 - Del^2 (E E' - P P') : : - Del.(Delx(E P' + P E' + PxP')), : : d^2 (E P' + P E' + PxP') /dt^2 + Delx(Delx(E P' + P E' + PxP')) : : - Del(Del.(E P' + P E' + PxP')) + Delx(Del (E E' - P P'))) : : = (d^2 (E E' - P P')/dt^2 - Del^2 (E E' - P P'), : : d^2 (E P' + P E' + PxP')/dt^2 - Del^2 (E P' + P E' + PxP')) : : = (mass density, mass flow) : : Looks complicated, but it was only an exercise in cutting and pasting : new fields into the Lorentz force and the Maxwell equations. : : The key question is how well this proposal fits the data. : : Newton's law of gravity works well, but where exactly is it hiding in : that collection of symbols? Let electromagnetic theory be the guide. : Coulomb's law is found in the covariant Lorentz force law if : beta = A = 0 and the scalar potential for a point charge is q/r. For : the Lorentz gravitational force, beta = P = P' = 0, so E E' ~= m m', and : the scalar potential for a point mass is m m'/r. : : F = [d/dt, Del]* (m m'/r, 0)* (1, 0)* : - (1, 0)* [d/dt, Del] (m m'/r, 0) : : = (0, -Del(m m'/r)) = (0, m m'/r^2) : : Multiply by -G, and that is Newton's law. : : Newton's law describes a 3-vector. How does one "repair" the law so : that it gets along with the 4-force formulations of special relativity? : This seemingly small job actually involves general relativity (see : Misner, Thorne and Wheeler, chapter 7). No repairs are required for : the Lorentz gravitational force law, since its form is every bit as : covariant as the Lorentz force of electromagnetism. For a point : source, the law becomes: : : F = [d/dt, Del]* ((E E' - P P')/r, 0)* (g, gb)* : - (g, gb)* [d/dt, Del] ((E E' - P P')/r, 0) : : = (-gb.Del ((E E' - P P')/r), -g Del ((E E' - P P')/r)) : : = (gb.(E E' - P P')/r^2, g (E E' - P P')/r^2) : : I do not know yet whether this form of the Lorentz gravitational force : is consistent with the experimental tests designed for the Schwarzschild : metric of general relativity, but I do have high hopes :-) : : Here's a subtle but fundamental distinction between electromagnetism : and gravity. For the Lorentz force of electromagnetism, the test charge : q is independent of the 4-potential. Varying q does nothing to the 4- : potential. For gravity, there is no way to separate the two momentum : 4-vectors that together compose the gravitational source. Varying a : test mass varies the 4-potential. This may play a similar function to the : non-linearity seen in general relativity. : : Now to the big difference: what is gravitational analogue of magnetism? : : Magnetism involves moving electric charges. The gravitational : analogue must involve moving pairs of masses. Consider a spiral galaxy : spinning around an axis. These equations predict a force generated by : moving pairs of masses that cannot be accounted for by a scalar : potential. The velocity profile of spiral galaxies is flat (V(r) = k) as seen : using neutral atomic hydrogen spectral lines. That is the data. : Newton's law predicts a Keplerian decline, V(r) = (k M(r)/r)^.5. Since : this equation fails, people have proposed the dark matter hypothesis, : where most of the matter in the universe is composed of "no-see-'ems", : a type of bug that cannot be seen, but leaves a bite from its visit. : : The B field is generated by DelxA. The gravitational analogue, let's call : it the ME field since that sounds like B and implies the non-linearity, is : Delx(E P' + P E' + PxP'). Do I know how to use the ME field to predict the : velocity profile of a spiral galaxy? No. I will start playing with : electromagnetic analogies, specifically electric charges on disks. : : There is a small amount of data about gravity waves. Some of the data : is based on the rate of decay of signals from binary pulsars due to : energy emitted as gravity waves. The Maxwell gravitational wave : equation also predicts such waves. I have yet to start doing calculations : with this set of equations. One point I can make is that there are no ME : field monopoles, just as there are no B field monopoles. However, the : ME field is really more analogous to a dipole since it necessarily : involves two 4-momenta. Therefore there are no ME field dipoles. : Gravity waves may require a quadrupole source for this reason. : General relativity makes a similar statement. : : I have not broached the topic of quantum mechanics, yet the topic is : critical for a modern gravitational theory. Here again, I must be brief : since I am still formulating how to think about quantum mechanics : with quaternions. My hope is to clone quantum electrodynamics, : creating quantum gravitational dynamics, since the equations have : identical forms. That sounds like a reasonable, though unsupported, : line of logic. : : What has been accomplished? I have generated two equations for : gravity--the Lorentz gravitational force and the Maxwell gravitational : wave equation--with as many implications as their electromagnetic : counterparts. The only solid connection to data has involved Newton's : law of gravity. A link to the experimental tests of general relativity is : merely a hope. A connection to quantum mechanics is more tenuous. : The proof for this proposal, if it ever comes, will involve the ability to : explain the velocity profiles of systems with masses in motion. : : : Doug : http://world.com/~sweetser From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 07:06:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07399; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:04:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:04:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:04:19 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Safety Issue In-Reply-To: <199801291427.AA06467 gateway1.srs.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"StozG2.0.Wp1.uf9qq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Comment from a non-subscriber ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 kirk.shanahan srs.gov wrote: > Mr Beaty, > > I know I am not a formal member of Vortex-L, but I have noted a > serious error on the part of one of your list members that needs to be > corrected. I hope you will post this to alert your readers to the > problem. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:38:53 -0500 , Jed Rothwell > <72240.1256 compuserve.com> wrote regarding "Hot froth nonsense": > > {snip} > > > When the SRI recombiner failed, causing the fatal accident on January > > 2, 1992, the total estimated internal energy of the gas was 39,700 > > joules. That's 1,300 times less than Arata. Pressure from built-up > > gas in the SRI cell before the accident was estimated at 300 atm. > > (See ICCF3 Proc., p. 143, 144.) This was in a large, heavy cell > > designed for high pressure operation, which is nothing like Arata's > > cell. It would be physically impossible for Arata's cell to build up > > more than a tiny fraction the SRI cell pressure. > > And on Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:13:13 -0500, Jed Rothwell > <72240.1256 compuserve.com> amended that with "SRI pressure was > 30 --> 300 atm" : > > > In a previous message I wrote: > > > "Pressure from built-up gas in the SRI cell before the accident was > > estimated at 300 atm." > > > I misread that (ICCF3 Proc., p. 143.) Pressure was 30 atm, but > > pressure during detonation "was taken to be 10 times the gas pressure > > before detonation or one half the Chapman-Jouget pressure." So they > > estimate 300 atm during the explosion. My other comment stands. This > > was in a large, heavy cell designed for high pressure operation, > > nothing like Arata's cell. > > > Unfortunately, the Arata and Zhang paper in J. High Temp. Soc., 1997, clearly > shows their internal cathode pressure to approach and perhaps exceed 900 > atmospheres. > > If A&Z's cell/cathode is not designed for that fact, A&Z and anyone who > replicates their work should cease now in light of the poor safety status of the > experiment. My position is that the A&Z report of cell deformation is cause for > concern, particularly when you realize that the interior of the cell should > reach somewhere between 3-12 thousand atmospheres of pressure. > > Further I note that the cell itself is a classic closed electrolysis cell, and I > see no reason why the same pressures experienced by McKubre would not be > possible in the A&Z experiments. If the A&Z cell is _less_ massive than > McKubre's as suggested by your member, there is even _more_ cause for concern. > I see no reason to presume the A&Z cell will produce so different a chemistry > that the accidental excursion encountered at SRI will not happen. > > It is a shame that your member's disinformation which suggested that the A&Z > cell was safer than McKubre's was allowed to stand unchallenged for two weeks. > > Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 07:25:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11055; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:17:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:17:54 -0800 Message-ID: <34D09DAA.7C51 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:18:02 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: I need a switch can you help? IMPORTANT! References: <34D07122.982C81DD ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"okiWo.0.Zi2.Ws9qq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > > I need a *switching device sometimes called a "chopper" that has low > resistance that can take more that 1 amp (I really need about 10 amps) > and an adjustable frequency, I would like a range of at least 50>100hz > but I am flexible and I really need an adjustable pulse width or one > that is open about half the time. > > This is a very important part of a promising experiment I am trying, If > you know of a place that makes such a switching device or of a model > number ot anything please respond, I need a current that seems far to > high for a 555 circuit or anything that I know like it and so I am > expecting a rotating switch is what I will find. > > If you have any ideas of how I could make one, know were I should look > or what I should by please respond. > > * A component of a circuit that will make and break the circuit so that > a pulsed DC will result from a constant voltage source. > > Thank you in advance, John Berry John, check out the circuit at: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/5322/fbt2.htm Here, the author uses a variable frequency 555 circuit to pulse a 2N2222 buffer. The 2N2222 then fires the MOSFET IRF510 to pulse the primary of a flyback transformer. I HAVE NOT TRIED THIS CIRCUIT but it may work for you. I think that it is not too hard to PARALLEL MOSFETs so you could do so until your current requirement is met. I also do not know of frequency limits for this approach. The author says the components are "Radio Shack" available. Since you want 50 to 100 Hz, you can probably use a relaxation oscillator to trigger the MOSFET. Use the "back" button at the above page to check out other pulse-generating ideas. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 08:55:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03368; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:47:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:47:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D0A4D9.2D5B earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:48:41 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: raven roadrunner.com, Vortex-L@eskimo.com Subject: Fuel cells, large & small, Hockaday at Los Alamos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6Y-1z3.0.Wq.PABqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 29, 1998 http://www.gaiabooks.co.uk/fuelcells.html FUEL CELLS POWER TIMES SQUARE ADS & CELL PHONES Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 NEW YORK, New York, January 21, 1998 (ENS) - Fuel cells have been used for a long time on space missions, and a variety of companies are racing to develop fuel cells to power automobiles. Now fuel cells large and small, are finding new applications from building signage to replacements for cell phone batteries. Fuel cells use an electrochemical process to directly convert chemical energy into electricity and hot water. The chemical energy normally comes from hydrogen contained in natural gas, methane or gasoline, but these chemicals are not burned, so the fuel cells operate virtually pollution free. They are expected to pay dividends in reduced greenhouse gas emissions, power savings and reductions in hazardous waste. Fuel cells will soon be used to power the advertising signage on the new Durst building going up at 4 Times Square in New York City. The two fuel cells, which together will generate 400 kilowatts of electricity, are part of the Durst Organization's plan to present itself as an environmentally friendly real estate developer by creating an environmental showcase building at 4 Times Square. In addition to electricity, the fuel cells produce hot water that will be used for the building's thermal heat. "The fuel cells also will allow us to maintain a significant portion of the building's power requirements even if there is a local grid blackout," said Jody Durst, executive vice president of The Durst Organization. "We want this building to be a showpiece, inside and out. The ONSI fuel cells will aid The Durst Organization in creating the world's most environmentally friendly speculative office building. We hope that other developers, using the research and development knowledge gained, will eclipse the standards set at 4 Times Square." "The Durst's building at 4 Times Square is truly a 'Green Building,'" said Ashok Gupta, senior energy economist for the Natural Resources Defense Council in New York. "The use of fuel cells for this building should serve as a significant example to developers everywhere. Fiscal decisions do not have to be separate from environmental consideration." Fuel cells are supplying an ever greater percentage of the world's energy needs as their practicality and reliability become known. They are a very reliable power source, says Michael London, spokesperson for the ONSI Corporation. "One ONSI unit installed by the Tokyo Gas Co. set a world record for any fuel cell by operating continuously for 9,500 hours when it was shut down for routine maintenance in May of 1997." The relatively large fuel cells used in buildings and in space will soon be complemented by miniature fuel cells that could replace batteries. Today Los Alamos, New Mexico scientist and entrepreneur Robert Hockaday received funding to develop the miniature fuel cell he designed in his basement - a miniature fuel cell that he believes will make cellular phone batteries a thing of the past. In fact, Hockaday thinks it will not be long before batteries for many small, portable electronics, such as lap-top computers will be replaced by fuel cells. Hockaday's miniature fuel cell is environmentally safe and will allow cellular phones to remain powered up on stand-by for over 40 days instead of the one day common to current cell phones. When powered by fuel cells the phones would have a talk time of 100 hours compared to 2 hours for conventional batteries. Instead of recharging, a tiny squirt of methanol restores power instantly. In a ceremony today in Los Alamos, attended by U.S. Senator Jeff Bingaman, a New Mexico Democrat, Hockaday's company, Energy Related Devices Inc., received $500,000 of the $1 million in research development funding that Manhattan Scientifics, Inc. committed to complete the miniature fuel cell technology that Hockaday began developing in his basement 10 years ago. While working at Los Alamos National Laboratory, Hockaday came up with the idea of micro-engineering fuel cells and employing the same type of miniaturization and materials technology that transformed computers from huge boxes to silicon chips. He took an entrepreneurial leave of absence and is designing a method by which the fuel cells can be manufactured inexpensively using a printing process similar to the manufacture of computer chips. "To go out and risk your family's income and your whole identity as a working scientist is really tough, but I want others to know it can be done," Hockaday said. "Now, with the backing of Manhattan Scientifics my plan is that I will be able to deliver a working prototype of the Micro-Fuel Cell by year-end and gear up for commercial production in '99." reposted with permission from The Environment News Service From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 09:03:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04400; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:58:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:58:54 -0800 Message-ID: <34D0A7D5.7445 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:01:25 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, raven@roadrunner.com Subject: Hockaday May 20, 1997 micro fuel cell patent, text Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IHPdS1.0.g41.DLBqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 29, 1998 http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5631099 View Images | Order Patent | Vote 5631099 : Surface replica fuel cell INVENTORS: Hockaday; Robert G., Los Alamos, NM 87544 ASSIGNEES: none ISSUED: May 20, 1997 FILED: Sep. 21, 1995 SERIAL NUMBER: 531378 MAINT. STATUS: INTL. CLASS (Ed. 6): H01M 008/10; U.S. CLASS: 429/030; 429/042; 427/105; 427/115; 427/238; 502/101; FIELD OF SEARCH: 429-30,35,42 ; 427-105,115,230,238,307 ; 501-101 ; ABSTRACT: A compact, surface replica fuel cell has a fiber reinforced, porous central membrane and two porous outer membranes. Thin film catalyst and metal electrode materials are deposited on both sides of the central membrane. The electrodes are deposited using a variety of techniques, including ion or light bombardment, etching and vacuum thin film deposition. For compound fuels, two catalysts are deposited. The first catalyst forms the interior surface replica electrode. The second catalyst is positioned on the interior of the pores to scavenge hydrogen before the hydrogen is diffused out of the electrode and electrolyte. A hydrophobic film is deposited over the electrode films to control electrolyte positioning and to strengthen the electrodes. Catalyst surface active area is maximized by separating the catalyst film from the porous, non-electrolyte substrate and filling the voids between the substrate and the catalyst film with an electrolyte. The fuel cell operates by supplying fuel gas to one electrode and an oxidizer gas to the other electrode. The cell may also function as an electrolysis cell for generating reactant gases from the electrolyte. During operation of the present invention, water is captured on cooler outer gas manifold surfaces of the cell and recirculated through electrode vias. Water content is regulated by a coating on the outer porous membranes. U.S. REFERENCES: (No patents reference this one) Patent Inventor Issued Title 4138510 Koziol et al. 2 /1979 Metal anode for electrochemical processing and method of making same 4243508 Dankese 1 /1981 Electrochemical apparatus 4252868 Bohm et al. 2 /1981 Fuel cell construction and method of manufacturing a fuel cell 4421579 Covitch et al. 12 /1983 Method of making solid polymer electrolytes and electrode bonded with hydrophyllic fluorocopolymers 4623415 Kahara et al. 11 /1986 Method of making fuel cell 4661423 Ueno et al. 4 /1987 Fuel cell electrolyte matrix and method for manufacturing the same 4666579 Beaver et al. 5 /1987 Structural frame for a solid polymer electrolyte electrochemical cell 4673624 Hockaday 6 /1987 Fuel cell 4769297 Reiser et al. 9 /1988 Solid polymer electrolyte fuel cell stack water management system 4804449 Sweeney 2 /1989 Electrolytic cell 4818637 Molter et al. 4 /1989 Hydrogen/halogen fuel cell with improved water management system 4824741 Kunz 4 /1989 Solid polymer electrolyte fuel cell system with porous plate evaporative cooling 4826554 McIntyre et al. 5 /1989 Method for making an improved solid polymer electrolyte electrode using a binder 4865925 Ludwig et al. 9 /1989 Gas permeable electrode for electrochemical system 4931168 Watanabe et al. 6 /1990 Gas permeable electrode 5084144 Reddy et al. 1 /1992 High utilization supported catalytic metal-containing gas-diffusion electrode, process for making it, and cells utilizing it 5108849 Watkins et al. 4 /1992 Fuel cell fluid flow field plate 5173166 Tomantschger et al. 12 /1992 Electrochemical gas sensor cells 5187025 Kelland et al. 2 /1993 Unitized fuel cell structure 5234777 Wilson 8 /1993 Membrane catalyst layer for fuel cells 5240786 Ong et al. 8 /1993 Laminated fuel cell components 5242764 Dhar 9 /1993 Near ambient, unhumidified solid polymer fuel cell 5252410 Wilkinson et al. 10 /1993 Lightweight fuel cell membrane electrode assembly with integral reactant flow passages 5262250 Watanabe 11 /1993 Structure of electrochemical cell for wetting diaphragm of solid polymer electrolyte 5264299 Krasij et al. 11 /1993 Proton exchange membrane fuel cell support plate and an assembly including the same 5266421 Townsend et al. 11 /1993 Enhanced membrane-electrode interface 5290323 Okuyama et al. 3 /1994 Manufacturing method for solid-electrolyte fuel cell 5316871 Swathirajan et al. 5 /1994 Method of making membrane-electrode assemblies for electrochemical cells and assemblies made thereby EXEMPLARY CLAIM(s): Show all 41 claims I claim: 1. A fuel cell apparatus comprising a first, central fiber-reinforced membrane having an oxygen side and a hydrogen side, electrodes positioned on the hydrogen side and the oxygen side of the membrane, each electrode comprising a first catalyst film layer deposited on the central membrane, the catalyst film layers separated from the central membrane by voids, metal film layers deposited over the catalyst film layers, and hydrophobic film layers positioned on the metal film layers, electrolyte disposed in voids between the catalyst film layers through the central membrane, a first water circulating and regulating membrane positioned above the hydrogen side electrode, a fuel channel flow manifold positioned above the first water circulating and regulating membrane and sealed to the hydrogen side electrode, a fuel inlet connected to the fuel manifold for delivering fuel to a region between the fuel manifold and the first water circulating and regulating membrane, a second water circulating and regulating membrane positioned below the oxygen side electrode, an oxidizer gas manifold positioned below the second water circulating and regulating membrane and sealed to the oxygen side electrode, an oxidizer gas inlet connected to the oxidizer gas manifold for delivering oxidizer gas to a region between the oxidizer gas manifold and the second water circulating and regulating membrane, a first electrical contact connected to the hydrogen electrode and a second electrical contact connected to the oxygen electrode, and a sealing rim extending around and connected to outer edges of the cell. RELATED U.S. APPLICATIONS: none FOREIGN APPLICATION PRIORITY DATA: none FOREIGN REFERENCES: Document No. Country Date Intl. Class 239169 EPO 9 /1987 60-33284 Japan 2 /1985 874283 United Kingdom 8 /1961 2139110 United Kingdom 11 /1984 2268619 United Kingdom 1 /1994 OTHER REFERENCES: Abbott et al., "Manipulation of the Wettability of Surfaces . . . ", Science, vol. 257, pp. 1380-1382 (Sep. 4, 1992). J.S. Batzold, "Thin Film Cell Electrodes", From Electrocatalysts To Fuel Cells, Ed. by G. Sanstede, pp. 224-229, Jun. 8, 1972. B.D. Cahan, "Tge Mechanism of Electrodic Reactions of Porous Surfaces", Ph.D. Disseration, 1968. Robert G. Hockaday, "Develop & Modeling of the Homoporous . . . ", Masters Thesis, New Mexico State University, Dec., 1984. Leddy et al., "Composite Ion Exchange . . . ", Abstract of an oral presentation, Journal of Electroch. Sty, vol. 135, No. 3, p. 139C, Mar. 1988. Narayanan et al., "Electrochemical Characteristics of Carbon-Supported . . .", 1992 Fuel Cell Seminar, Tucson, AZ, Nov. 29-Dec. 2, 1992, pp. 233-236. Naylor et al., "A Novel Anode System . . . ", 1992 Fuel Cell Seminar, Tucson, AZ, Nov. 29-Dec. 2, 192, pp. 575-578. Sarangapani et al., "Advanced Corrosion-Resistant Coatings . . . ", 1992 Fuel Cell Seminar, Tucson, AZ, pp. 167-170. Srinivasan et al., "Fundamental Equations of Electrochemical Kinetics . . . ", J. Chem. Phys., vol; 46, pp. 3108-3122, Apr. 15, 1967. Wolf Vielstich, "Fuel Cells: Modern Processes for the Electrochemical . . . ", Verlag Chemie, GmbH, 1967 (translated by D.J.G. Ives 1970), pp. 68-76, 184-189. ATTORNEY, AGENT, or FIRM: Wray; James Creighton; PRIMARY/ASSISTANT EXAMINERS: Kalafut; Stephen; Patent Number Search | Boolean Text Search | Advanced Text Search Home | Help | Search | Order Form | Guestbook | Legal | IBM From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 09:55:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14627; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:45:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:45:53 -0800 (PST) From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199801291744.AA09275 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 10:40:55 -0500 To: Subject: Re[2]: Interesting exercise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vkw3w.0.Sa3.D1Cqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John S. scribed, >You are looking for: > >bias current of meter FROM the meter >and if you use scope /.... AC FROM the meter > >Electronic meters are SOURCES of noise and currents... or can be. > >You are looking for: > >bias current of meter FROM the meter >and if you use scope /.... AC FROM the meter > >Electronic meters are SOURCES of noise and currents... or can be. Ohh...... Gocha.....wasn't clear in the original message. Understand now....so the rest of my dialog was useless rambling trying to figure out what you meant. I thought you were trying to say that the DVM would pick up voltage across the input side. Would you be able to hear this bias on the other side of the amp as well? Very good point. esp with the capacitor measuring stuff. Anton Rager Denver, CO arager McGraw-Hill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 10:23:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19329; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:16:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:14:15 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior To: Rich Murray Cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fuel cells, large & small, Hockaday at Los Alamos In-Reply-To: <34D0A4D9.2D5B earthlink.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4-5jJ2.0.nj4.gTCqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Rich Murray wrote: > Jan. 29, 1998 > > http://www.gaiabooks.co.uk/fuelcells.html > > FUEL CELLS POWER TIMES SQUARE ADS & CELL PHONES > > Today Los Alamos, New Mexico scientist and entrepreneur Robert Hockaday > received funding to > develop the miniature fuel cell he designed in his basement - a > miniature fuel cell that he believes will > make cellular phone batteries a thing of the past. In fact, Hockaday > thinks it will not be long before > batteries for many small, portable electronics, such as lap-top > computers will be replaced by fuel > cells. > > Hockaday's miniature fuel cell is environmentally safe and will allow > cellular phones to remain > powered up on stand-by for over 40 days instead of the one day common to > current cell phones. > When powered by fuel cells the phones would have a talk time of 100 > hours compared to 2 hours > for conventional batteries. Instead of recharging, a tiny squirt of > methanol restores power instantly. > Cool! Soon we'll have gasoline powered computers :-)! Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 10:44:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06107; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:36:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:36:25 -0800 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Sevior To: Rich Murray Cc: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chubb: Amer Phys Soc abstract concerning Aneutronic, Radiationless Fusion In-Reply-To: <34D0163D.95 earthlink.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ntu5u2.0.HV1.emCqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Rich Murray wrote: Information about Russ George's presentation to the APS March Meeting. I looked it up in the APS proceedings. He has been lumped in with the crazies that show up at every APS meeting. Contrary to what some here might believe, the APS allows anyone to a make a presentation. Generally those thought to be crazy are all put together in one session. I doubt that many serious Physicists will attend his presentation. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 14:27:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04019; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:22:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:22:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:09:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Soltis James Dr." To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [from s.p.r] Gravity with quaternions In-Reply-To: <199801291414.JAA12251 gateway.minimal.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"g_4rT3.0.X-.R4Gqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Quaternions are ( I think) regarded by the avant-garde physics people as OK but a sort of non-extensible screw-up-- replaced by Clifford algebras. Lots of geometry here for those so inclined. Jim Soltis From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 14:34:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29596; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:24:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:24:54 -0800 (PST) From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <34D1E2E2.26DA pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:25:38 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic(?) Re: About your brain .... In general References: <199801270232.UAA00934 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SxyoX3.0.HE7.n6Gqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The key to this area lies in learning the brain's code. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 15:31:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11461; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:25:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:25:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:18:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic(?) Re: About your brain .... In general In-Reply-To: <34D1E2E2.26DA pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qTohk.0._o2.i_Gqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear H., Let me in on it. and let me know, in clear and unambibuous terms; a] how to decode it b] how to encode c] how to get these signals into or out from the brain. My opinion: The human system is a wonderful and complex systems. No simple rule fits all. A single sentence does not fix or answer the questions of learning. Learning is NOT the same for everyone, nor are everyone's perceptions of a given simple physical event the same. Things become much more complex, and much more quickly is we talk about presentation, perception and communication ....Now let us add individuality, culture, mental state at any given instant, environment and so on. Example: Describe the following as you percieve it: A doorbell. I invite all of vo., who care to participate to describe and-or define a doorbell. Then I will erect some 'human factors' around it. As questions. JHS On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 ehammond pacbell.net wrote: > The key to this area lies in learning the brain's code. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 15:32:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12091; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:28:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:28:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:21:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: off topic(?) Re: About your brain .... In general In-Reply-To: <34D1E2E2.26DA pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"dkm982.0.ry2.J2Hqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 ehammond pacbell.net wrote: > The key to this area lies in learning the brain's code. A] All round things are on cars and make them go, these are called tires. Or is it wheels. Or maybe bearings. Or cylinders. Or are we talking about a Wankle engine? Or a turbine? Are oxygen atoms round? Are spark plugs? ?????????????? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 18:41:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16522; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:29:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:29:22 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980130022829.008e71ac freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:28:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: off topic(?) Re: About your brain .... In general Resent-Message-ID: <"7a29G3.0.j14.zhJqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:18 PM 1/29/98 -0500, Joh Schnurer wrote: > > Example: > > Describe the following as you percieve it: > > > A doorbell. > > > I invite all of vo., who care to participate to describe and-or >define a doorbell. Then I will erect some 'human factors' around it. >As questions. A doorbell is a small bell on a hanger next to an entrance to a dwelling. A string is attached to the bell which is pulled by a person to alert an occupant of the dwelling that someone is at the door that wishes to converse with the resident or may wish to gain access (e.g. a resident of the dwelling who forgot their key). Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 18:50:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23319; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:43:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:43:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:43:26 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Amazing report in Sochi (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA23297 Resent-Message-ID: <"0er3j1.0.Di5.JvJqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See below (bounced msg, Dr. Sapogin is not a vtx subscriber) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:59:39 -0800 From: "Lev G. Sapogin" To: vortex-L-request eskimo.com Subject: Amazing report in Sochi He all, In Russian city Sochi were Conference ġCNF and Nuclear Transmutationĉ (October 1997). In this Conference was AMAZING report Dr.Swe-Kai Chena ( from Matherial Science Center, National Tsing Hua University, Hsinchu,30043 Taiwan,R.O.C.). If it is a correct then very much theories can be mistake). Please all questions to Dr.Swe Kai-Chen, E-mail:skchen msk.nthu.edu.tw. Please short summary: ********** Evidence for inverse electrochemically induced solid state D(d,gamma)He4 nuclear reactions and a possible powerful method for cooling a physics system. ġA large heat absorption effect was observed in an open type electrochemically loaded deuterium - palladium system. The heat absorption is believed to be an interrupted phenomenon during electrolytic loading of deuterium and to be associated with inverse d-d reactions, which is characterized by a high speed of temperature drop 19 C /3 minutes) in 350c.c. D2O+0.1M LiOD solution with 0.3c.c. Pd cathode and with current density of 2500 mA/cm2. Compared with the faster heat drop , the heavy recovery was slower (19 C/8 minutes) in a temperature drop event. (See file base64). There were five iterative events of large temperature drop in 2500 minutes, with a time period of 8 to 10 hours. The heat absorption effect has nothing to do with the addition of cooler (25 C) fresh heavy water because the supplement of fresh heavy water was continuously added (about 0.7 ml/min) and the temperature drops occurred simultaneously at different points in the cell. The reaction is believed to be a nuclear origin because of the existence of the excess heat effect in the electrolyses (about 30%). The excess heat and the corresponding amount of nuclear product were also observed by other investigators, e.g. Arata and Zhang D(d,gamma)He4 reaction, but no observations on this kind of heat absorption have been made before. Recently in a low energy (less than 15 keV or 150keV) d beam bombardment in d-loaded Ti targets, a three-body (d+d+d) nuclear reaction was proposed to explain the nuclear products (p+n+alpha) of the reactions [2]. In[2] the d atoms in solid Ti were assumed at rest as d-d pairs. Among the above three cases, if considering the possibility of the inverse D(d,gamma)He4 reaction and applying it to explain the large heat absorption in figure (fail base 64), one is able to expect that a powerful cooling system can be obtained by this kind of inverse D(d,gamma)He4 reaction, i.e. by nuclear cooling methodĉ References 1.Y.Arata and Y.Zhang,J.High Temperature Soc., Japan,23,1, (1997). 2.e.r.,H.Yuky, T.Satoh and all.Proc.ICCF6, vol.1,p.259,Japan,(1996).ĉ ******* I think that it research is FIRST evidence for Crematorium solution at Unitary Quantum Theory. For more information see 1.L.G.Sapogin ,ĉOn one of Energy Generation Mechanism in Unitary Quantum Theoryĉ. Proc. ICCF5,page 361,Monte Carlo,1995 2.L.G.Sapogin,ĉEnergy Generation Processes and CNF in terms of Schredinger Equation. Chinese journal of Nuclear Physics vol.19,#2, page 115,1997 and Proc.IFCC6,vol.2,p.595,Japan, 1996. Professor Lev G.Sapogin Head Physics Department Technical University (MADI) Leningradsky pr.64, A-319, 125829,GSP,Moscow,Russia. phone 07-095-1550492 (office) 07-095-1550390 (secretary) 07-095-1510331 (fax) 07-095-5931610 (home, after voice also fax) E-mail:sapogin cnf.madi.msk.su begin 666 chenvor.gif M1TE&.#=A `+@`8```/___P```"P`````@`+@`0`"_X2/J?#Z@#QB(!T$W:'B( M&.'V%] (F&A3"#E)">5XB2E9F:2YZ?F)DBD*QP9:UFF:^D4WVNK:IAJ+&JLT M._B:2:M;8[M;U(LDAXL;YVLL!'QEI/TY^I-0THY+ SJU@K&4BGX2FSZ]^D2J-)%6 M/U!EV!6KV",CPZ;XNM"LAVQJQ_K;R:%LI(=/2X:U^:_72[=[TH*T>S,P3[3+ MMA(^:+=KH;*-2(H\2 GNU%EP4>*]\GA$)ZW/HEH^7!#FR+KW&K<K>1T^?/;[RH\[@F\%JSQPR8YGJ#/?F*IEFYF*+ M>4O_MU\=>^E]-PU._KWG!WH*0C=88MW=MAUK>0V%8$8-)O=7.UK=)N`PZ`'X MWX,1U =A>!E>59I+$QV'U$Y[C2-<@`2BII.(UVD"3'_V&)3?/''`$EM\/WWT M57PG?: 3AYTM6".0LC#]V..-S-RJ7 ME&)#[G< DNN%F.&:&A[7(STMM19E`\4A-J(L9H7DG005@I@+9`>29^1<.8G' MT 9,ZKQ)!N&)B;J%9E&F;K>"SW"J$A"DC5) M*G&7IK8<7\%IAVN7HTW:(GRY)=AJH*)2Z&00Z#3E$(XN_^[J`F ";8F&K#(R_OB4[Q-!4*_BQU_5X MMFYUWM(IGWV]SBPI0D];BAA^:"W;(7_1> M<&VE(_,X>!YB&XU:KTAN5)FM(O_ ?3F(`7U[>#",[YTY:2%3V?9O.SYN^0PV MACQ>8*`3/>?KH2WWZ]0KR)YZLVD:!C6+J,,^YN^:"6^.36Q.E;LE$Q#YR+G! 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MF7T-V'EI5I+$AQS96#,"LH0`PD9C)56;XY*39">T!)*E-H+TUV6-MU+B_T,L MF511=O14+QD^-M(I&`F,MJ14\)B43-$^2Z)4-B.6JZ0UI%)46$F4AX07?M-( MHY-+5_)87E&U,61,@0K%?1W#ZDHH6D1R*).:D5V.827,5(HAEF8X@1=,DESBLF/ M/O YQ"F9E6(A/5>:*&*<-6E6>/*<`H23*?B9EE.=5$=BH=1\Y$AN-"F=]+&3 MVPF>]R>>](AOU^F1YUF<*`[BF`FO^W>+E9;/9)D>G9>CB8AOQY M;W;GC0(*F 0ZD@;ZE2A(FRRFH%ZT@_'9A`WZH)G#H`5:H2%IFU5!H1E:*M%Y MBAX*CAL*%ATJHAU0GRAJHFAWH Y&HBO7HE$&HJ+9GC&*E/YYF[!GHUKWHFFQ MHPN*HR3XHP>Z)?,XI)[4HPHAH4>Z%C/ZG]T72$PJD$%*CT%E>2DJI4V:I`1Q M5FN)DEG:>U2: 58Z.%@*IE>TI5QJ:6:YI"=JIHX2<['2IFX:H2OJ=L1X7F>* M=1=Z:):T/"AII_SYI C5IS5Z2SBBIW;'IQ.HD*!X05:3J,2UJ..I7Z08J.`Y MJ"9UJ24&I401J6$JIC3_^JD\BJ#'.:H3.JG<=ZIG4*<8NJI/EZHA^JJL6JJ4 M.JL/&*JW>:LZ4ZNJNJM(ZJ03^*O3EZL4,:?#RGJ39GLZBJR<6JP#X8_-BG3/ M6J+26H)K:*K6RJ*IN*E%JJTTYZRV^JV(EYVQEZ#>%Z7CBGF]^J2X044VJ*XS MZ*TWR)B5U*WD6(3'2G?U&F[Q^GOY>J_S6B_LZ:\=EW7Z"JZ>IU"9JJT`6Z"A M-&L%:Z[L.J;PLDX1*[$*=+`!RWYQ1[!_F+&S0ZWY2%5^22X(ZZ$;FY^7]U0A MRVX4VZ<`6E4N^[(CJZ0ZXTVW0V&S<\VV8P*ZQ`BZW6F*U$V[-&*ZY( M_XMGM>"J3`N)3KNS4/M]2NNK5$M.4GNT6%M07K>L0L>U8*BUJNB>/N!?IMJ.+N- M^1J&"L:7ADN-B,N&MU4VC,N,CKN8M-*: *NI@BNDEONEF(LX;%NY_W!UGGMO MY9I7AII-N$>ZFJ>+ZEES; 6RJTMUN6BZW/.G)BN[?TJ[PQ&Z'G.HPUJ%NRN\ MD4.O3056=*HQPRN\:V,W*-M6,:J\T:M(TRBOW :!THN]_Y%I]\AED@L*V0N^ MXM`\G[B][&B^`'1:X:N^X=,MU#=J77B-1K6^?4B#I/\WMZ5FO>J8&?([O]B8 MD]E(O8IGL&]1,WF+J\S;OPD<(-OWCY%E=/L&.QG$B#+RCE6Q5DFHP&:H,KTH MFA^ZD?T4+U#)'`Q[9::9P`C-G ,NXD6QN\9 M2&BLJ4:UF?!ZR!43NXYJE1C_:VT9\<'[55R0[&[;I$]6G`N'H5?#LL60B\": M&2\`5<67O#2)2,+&"G"*$J4F:\,[VLR^-,$]4R59C$?U.\CUTE!WM"?N M\TA![$C?C&;I-9C,(W'WHF[&KW-#$ADI-5)5PU-&T ;J^>]+;%IAG M;,7#_Q?/NG?%M?RY14W`:.DBA*K48 G238G(4(V^4MVHW3R4!6Q26IV^E`G6 M8OU\]";/9JW6:\W6;>W6;PW7<2W7:W7>\W7?>W7?PW8 2W8 M TW8A6W8AXW8B:W8B\W8C>W8CPW9D2W9DTW9E6W9EXW9F:W9F\W9G>W9GPW: MH2W:HTW:I6W:IXW:J:W:J\W:K>W:KPW;L2W;LTW;M6W;MXW;N:W;N\W;O>W; MOPWWW=WPW>X2W>XTW>Y6W>YXW>Z:W>Z\W>[>W>[PW?\2W?\WU-W_5MW_>-W_FM MW_O-W_WMW_\-X`$NX`-.X`5NX`>.X`FNX`O.X`WNX`\.X1$NX1-.X15NX1>. MX1FNX1O.X1WNX1\.XB$NXB-.XB5NXB>.XBFNXBO.XBWNXB\.XS$NXS-.XS5N ;XS>.XSFNXSO.XSWNXS\.Y$$NY$-.Y!Q0```[ ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 21:59:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12109; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:55:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:55:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D16B39.27B1B24D ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:55:05 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: I need a switch can you help? Thanks! References: <34D07122.982C81DD ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f3RiM1.0.0z2.QjMqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To everyone on KeelyNet-L Vortex-L and Freenrg-L Thankyou, because I know it was not on topic. And especially to those who answered my question Thank's. John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 22:12:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14247; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:09:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:09:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D1894A.2 keelynet.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:03:22 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Gravity Car Proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zINRc.0.XU3.xvMqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts! Dan Davidson sent in a proposal for a gravity car based on the weight loss he and Joe Parr have measured in pyramidal structures. The description is at; http://keelynet.com/davidson/gravcar.htm Other associated information that details the gravity centrifuge experiments and related info at; http://keelynet.com/davidson.htm If you are interested. Sounds like a neat thing to try. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-8741 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 22:33:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09597; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:28:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:28:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:28:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"plLp-3.0.nL2.5CNqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Run 9 is a live attempt to see the BLP excess heat effect. It can be viewed at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run9.html Something interesting occurred during this run, which looked like a small excess heat for a while. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Jan 29 23:06:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18064; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:59:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:59:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34D16CE7.570A earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 00:02:15 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Hockaday cellular phone fuel cell, Los Alamos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_o7L2.0.AQ4.QfNqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jan. 29, 1998 http://www.abcnews.com/sections/scitech/dye40/index.html Special to ABCNEWS.com Bob Hockaday believes he is on the brink of revolutionizing the consumer electronics industry with tiny fuel cells that could power our gadgets for weeks without “recharging.” But there was a time when he stood at the edge of a precipice. As an inquisitive high school student a quarter-century ago, he scavenged up some spare parts and built his first fuel cell. “It caught on fire in my mother’s oven,” he says. Undaunted, and apparently undiscouraged by a very understanding mom, Hockaday continued to pursue what many regarded as a foolish dream. He was intrigued by the fact that fuel cells—which produce electricity by electrochemically combining hydrogen and oxygen without combustion—have almost 100 percent efficiency. They are at the forefront of science today because any believe they could power pollution-free cars of the future. A fuel cell is not a battery, which stores electrical energy and has a relatively short lifetime. A fuel cell contains chemical energy, which is converted to electricity, and the cell remains viable as long as fuel is supplied. Thinking Small What set Hockaday apart from the mainstream research is his quest for a fuel cell so small it could fit into a cellular phone, and so efficient it could run the phone for 50 times longer than a conventional battery. The problem was, nobody knew how to make a fuel cell that small. Fuel cells convert chemical energy in a fuel, such as methanol or alcohol, to electrical energy by creating a circuit through which electrons in the fuel travel from a negative to a positive electrode. The rate at which the fuel flows is critical to the performance of the cell, so some sort of mechanical device that controls the flow is essential. And that, so everyone thought, meant you had to have a substantial piece of equipment. Years after the incident in his mother’s kitchen, Hockaday returned to the problem while writing his master’s thesis in mechanical engineering. What if it were possible to etch microscopic pores in thin films of plastic that could control the rate of flow in a tiny cell? He thought it was a great idea, but everybody has to make a living, so Hockaday began working in diagnostic physics at Los Alamos National Laboratory in the mountains of New Mexico. Fortunately, his wife, who is also a physicist at the lab, turned out to be as understanding as his mother, because she soon found the floor of their apartment littered with stuff as Hockaday pursued his dream on his own time. Medicine to the Rescue The breakthrough, he says, came from the world of medicine. “It started out with a material called nuclear pore,” he says. “It’s actually used to filter blood through very precise pores made by irradiating plastic.” The process used to manufacture that material, Hockaday realized, would allow him to “etch” pores into plastic that would be exactly the right size to control the flow of fuel through a miniature cell. “I said, ‘Hey, that’s pretty nice,’ ” he says. “I can control the flow down to a microscopic level.” Visions of his own manufacturing plant that would turn out tons of plastic film with microscopic pores at a cheap price danced through his head. That could lead to fuel cells that could allow a person to talk on a cellular phone for 200 hours instead of two, and the user could “recharge” the device by simply inserting a small canister of new fuel. His supervisors at Los Alamos were so intrigued by his extracurricular work that they gave him a leave of absence to pursue his dream. Little Interest in Small Battery But there was a problem, he says. When he went out to major manufacturing companies, he always got the same reaction. “They said, ‘You don’t build fuel cells that way,’ ” he says. It seems everybody was thinking in terms of large fuel cells that could power automobiles, and Hockaday’s breakthrough was viewed as “radical technology.” So Hockaday started his own one-man company, Energy Related Devices, Inc., and evicted his three kids from their playroom in the basement of their home to make room for expansion. But he knew he could never make a go of it without outside help. Guerrilla Benefactor As luck would have it, Marvin Maslow, president of Manhattan Scientifics, Inc., of New York, happened to drop by the Los Alamos lab. Maslow, a former banker who practices what he calls “guerrilla entrepreneurship,” had helped about a dozen enterprises get started, and he was intrigued when scientists at the lab told him about Hockaday’s research. A few days ago, with witnesses including brass from the lab and even a U.S. senator, Maslow presented Hockaday with a check for $500,000—half of his company’s commitment to the fuel cell project. Hockaday, who has put nearly everything he has earned into the project while his family lived off his wife’s income, is now moving out of his kids playroom and will soon begin hiring others to make his dream come true. They will have a long ways to go, but Hockaday says he has “no doubt at all that we can do it.” Cutting It Down to Size His prototype produces only enough electricity to keep a battery charged. Making it smaller and more powerful, he says, is only a matter of scale. “We will do it through brutal engineering,” he quipped. “We know exactly where we want to hammer.” Hockaday’s work has been endorsed by the Los Alamos lab, one of the nation’s leading research centers, which brokered the agreement between Hockaday and Maslow. Hockaday distinguished himself in the lab’s weapons program, and he won two Awards of Excellence and a Distinguished Performance Award for his work on lab projects. With two patents to his name and a third on the way, Hockaday hopes to have fuel cells available to power all sorts of portable devices within a couple of years. That will free people of the need to recharge their batteries every couple of hours or so, he says, and he believes it will revolutionize consumer electronics. Of course, it also could mean that the batteries in urban boom boxes will never run down. Science writer Lee Dye’s column appears Wednesdays on ABCNEWS.com. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 01:45:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02960; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:42:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:42:40 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: letters newscientist.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, pr@borealis.com Subject: Cheap solar pannels? Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:40:19 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34d33661.52574416 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"65nzh3.0.6k.E2Qqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The article "Boiling Fridges" in the 24 Jan issue of NS (page 30 http://www.nsplus.com/ns/980124/features1.html) set me thinking about the following. Where a voltage differential will produce a cooling effect, a temperature differential should produce a voltage. Perhaps these "chips" manufactured in a form analogous to aluminium foil could be used as solar panels? Sheets of differing materials bonded in a vacuum with insulating mesh in between as separators. One of the sheets would be an electride or alkalide, the other a simple conductor such as aluminium. The electride (e.g.) would be exposed to sun-light, the aluminium (with a matt black surface) would be in the shade. Various series-parallel combinations would provide the desired voltage and current characteristics. A clear plastic film on the outside of the electride would protect it from the atmosphere. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 01:45:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03334; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:42:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 01:42:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:05:31 GMT From: "Peter Glueck" Message-ID: <34d197e3.itim itim.org.soroscj.ro> To: "vortex" Cc: "Peter Glueck" Subject: Websites Resent-Message-ID: <"KilR21.0.0q.H2Qqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexers, a) Does somebody know the reason why CETI's website http://www.ceti.net seems to be inoperant this year? b) An interesting site is: http://members.aol.com/AquaFuel/index.html Thank you for any information re. a), puzzling! Peter -- dr. Peter Gluck Institute of Isotopic and Molecular Technology Fax:064-420042 Cluj-Napoca, str. Donath 65-103, P.O.Box 700 Tel:064-184037/144 Cluj 5, 3400 Romania Home: 064-174976 E-mail: peter itim.org.soroscj.ro , peterg@oc1.itim-cj.ro From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 05:57:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03885; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 05:55:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 05:55:32 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34D1CBD0.6E36CCA8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:47:12 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f6p6-.0.dy.IlTqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote (in run9.html): Despite the problems we had in this run, there was no sign of the large excess heat signal reported by BLP under similar conditions. Hi Scott, I don't understand the above statement. Shouldn't the word "Despite" be replaced with "Because of"? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 06:05:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05726; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:04:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:04:02 -0800 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:00:33 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Fuel cell liability Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801300903_MC2-313F-335B compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"olxDz3.0.HP1.GtTqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex An ABC News article posted here describes "tiny fuel cells that could power our gadgets for weeks without recharging." Fuel cells are marvelous devices in many ways, but they are not a good replacement for batteries in every application. I think they are ideal for co-generation applications like the power supply in the building Times Square, which I presume would be powered by natural gas. (Japanese fuel cell generators are.) Gene Mallove told me about a fuel cell developed by a major power tool company (Craftsman?). It was powered by a module about the size of a cigarette lighter. It was never marketed because the corporate managers became concerned over the potential danger from explosions. Our society has gone litigation crazy and I normally dismiss such worries, but in this case I have to agree. It might not be a good idea to put a cigarette lighter directly inside a power tool. I have abused drills and saws to make them catch, grind, and smoke. Sparks fly, the metal gets hot. Petrochemicals produce an awesome amount of energy, which is why they are good for this application. Squirt a little lighter fluid on a paper napkin and throw it on to the grill to see what I mean. Throwing a full lighter on the grill would be suicidal. Looking at other applications, I presume the amount of explosive fuel in a portable cell phone fuel cell would be too small to constitute a threat. It might work well in a portable video camera. I do not think I would want a chemically fueled pacemaker or other implanted device. A portable computer takes a considerable amount of energy and thus, a fairly large fuel supply. I suppose it would be on the cigarette lighter scale, maybe a little smaller. I don't know if I would want to be on an airplane with 50 people running portable computers powered in this fashion. I have personally witnessed four computers catch fire internally (a mini, a desktop and two portables), because of short circuits or improperly installed boards. I have seen many computers and other office machines overheat when customers place papers, manuals and assorted junk in front of the cooling vents. I do not know that I would want to see a plastic vial of petrochemical fuel near a computer power supply. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 06:18:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08121; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:17:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:17:21 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34D1E0E6.289F5CB4 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:17:10 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cheap solar pannels? References: <34d33661.52574416 mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jK2Lq1.0.i-1.m3Uqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > Where a voltage differential will produce a cooling effect, a > temperature differential should produce a voltage. Yes. The basic principle behind a Peltier junction: One of several reasons why I am beginning to suspect the interaction of energy state extremes as the key to understanding recent gravity modification experiments and what is now affectionately referred to as 'negative viscosity'. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 06:22:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08730; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:19:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:19:37 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980130081952.00867410 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:19:52 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! In-Reply-To: <34D1CBD0.6E36CCA8 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"57fHD3.0.K82.u5Uqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:47 AM 1/30/98 -0500, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Scott Little wrote (in run9.html): > > Despite the problems we had in this run, > there was no sign of the large > excess heat signal reported by BLP under > similar conditions. > >Hi Scott, > >I don't understand the above statement. Shouldn't >the word "Despite" be replaced with "Because of"? Hi Jack, You've got my attention! Please tell me which of the problems strikes you as being responsible for the lack of excess heat!? I was referring mainly to the input power measurement error, which introduced a 2 watt uncertainty into our power balance measurement. I fullly expected this run to show the excess heat effect. We had the KNO3 catalyst, the 2 torr of H gas, the 280C gas temperature, and the 2000K tungsten filament. ...but no sign of the factor-of-two excess heat signal reported by BLP. Yes our filament only lasted 1 hour but that's about equal to our calorimeter's time constant. If the purported 2X excess heat signal were present, the Pout trace would have soared up to 50 watts or so in that hour! Again, I hope you can help me identify what aspect of this latest run could be preventing the excess heat signal. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 09:14:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23978; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:09:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:09:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D20648.3BDE flash.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:56:40 -0600 From: George Marklin Reply-To: marklin flash.net Organization: Internet Physics Academy X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex mailing list Subject: A ZPE Force Generator Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="zpegen" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="zpegen" Resent-Message-ID: <"j7Cva2.0.Zs5.8bWqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A ZPE FORCE GENERATOR =========================== * | * * | * * | * * | Lens * * Perfectly conducting disc * * | with hole in center * * | * * | * | =========================== Cylindrical tube The lens is placed so that the focal point is at the center of the hole in the disc. Light impinging from the left will be focused onto the hole and pass through it. Light impinging from the right will reflect off the disc - except for a small fraction that hits the hole. Hence, if this device is placed in a bath of visible radiation it will experience a net force pushing it to the left. Let's try to estimate the force that would be exerted by the ZPE. [Hal - please check my math] The energy density (pressure) of the ZPE is hbar / P = ---------- | w^3 dw 2 pi^2 c^3 / The integral extends to the maximun frequency that the lens will refract and the disc will reflect. Let's call this fmax = 10^15 Hz - slightly beyond the visible. Them use w = 2 pi f to get 2 pi^2 hbar fmax^4 P = ------------------ c^3 Plugging in fmax = 10^15 Hz, hbar = 10^-34 J-s, and c = 3 10^8 m/s, I find P = about 100 pascals So if the area were 1 square meter, the force would be 100 Newtons - or about 20 pounds! Of course, I have neglected the fact that only radiation which is nearly on-axis will contribute to this force. Most radiation will be too far off-axis to be focused onto the hole, so this force must be reduced by some geometrical factor amounting to the ratio of the solid angle of the rays which will be focused onto the hole divided by 2 pi. But my guess is that this would still leave enough force to be measured. Physics questions: 1. Will the conducting disc reflect the ZPE? I think it has to - otherwise the Casimir force experiments would not have worked. 2. Will the lens refract the ZPE? I'm not sure about this, but I think it will because no absorption is required. Loosely speaking, the ZPE should do everything that light will do except get absorbed - because it does not have enough amplitude to reach the quantum interaction threshold of one photon. Any of you experimental types want to build one? George Marklin marklin flash.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 09:55:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21616; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:43:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:43:03 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:43:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! Resent-Message-ID: <"dgW3C3.0.SH5.c4Xqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Run 9 [snip] >Something interesting occurred during this run, which looked like a small >excess heat for a while.... ...but the apparent excess heat was an instrumentation problem. Good work, Scott. I have always had the impression that you are an excellent experimentalist. This confirms my belief. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:14:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03039; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:07:14 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980128112707.00a3ca2c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:06:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 8 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q-Fiq3.0.Ll.ERXqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I recently wrote about how Scott Little might use glow discharges to try to rid his BLP replication chamber of oxygen. The recipe suggested use of hydrogen gas for the final phase of the glow cleaning. The main drawback of hydrogen glow for Scott's experiments, and the reason I did not suggest it earlier, is that the glow itself generates lots of atomic hydrogen, so the BLP experiment begins as soon as the hydrogen glow cleaning begins. This is not in any of the BLP proceedures I have read. We might consider instead trying to clean the chamber and most of its components very well before the BLP experiment. For example, run the Ar or He glow for a long time, then H glow for a long time, then repeat these at least a few times. The idea is to get rid of as much of the surface films as possible, by alternating sputtering (Ar or He) with chemical reaction (H). Next, the system has to be opened to install the final components for the experiment. Blank off the main chamber and keep it pumped while working on the flange with the experiment components. Although the chamber gets exposed to oxygen, it will form only a few atomic layers of oxide, instead of its (probable) tens or hundreds of atomic layers. Of course, the new components that go in will still be a big source of oxygen, but at least we will have reduced the oxygen source considerably. I worry that when KNO3 vapor decomposes, as it must when it gets hot enough at the filament to release atomic K as required by BLP, we will still see a persistent filament erosion problem. Therefore, after a good initial cleanup of the chamber, maybe the getter idea (Fred Sparber's?) needs to be implemented. However, atomic H reduces most oxides, including common getters like Ba. In order that the getter capture and hold on to oxygen, the getter surface must be shielded from most of the atomic H, whose source is the filament. I suggest installing a shield plate in the chamber somewhere between the filament and the wall, and flashing the getter between the wall and the shield plate. Usually one needs fresh getter surface, since heavily oxidized "getter" surfaces scavenge gases only slowly. Of course, BLP says nothing about any of this. Hmmmm.... Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:19:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29181; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:17:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:17:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:09:49 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Fuel cell liability Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801301313_MC2-3143-6B86 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"rRGHX2.0.X77.9bXqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: ". . . fuel cell developed by a major power tool company (Craftsman?)." Can't be. Craftsman is the Sears brand name. Maybe it was Black and Decker. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:23:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28637; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:16:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:16:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:10:07 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801301313_MC2-3143-6B87 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tLb-c1.0.I_6.OaXqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: Hi Jack, You've got my attention! Please tell me which of the problems strikes you as being responsible for the lack of excess heat!? . . . Again, I hope you can help me identify what aspect of this latest run could be preventing the excess heat signal. I am sorry to say this again, but I think that Scott's approach, as exemplified by these questions, is a futile waste of time. Jack Smith may be a smart fellow, talented and experienced in many ways, but he cannot know why this experiment has failed. This is unreplicated, cutting edge new science. Nobody knows why it fails. Nobody can be sure it worked in the first place! There are only a few people in the world who could tell Scott where to look and what may have gone wrong: the people at BLP, and others who have replicated the experiment. All other experts are disqualified. Jack Smith and the other people here can kibitz. They can make valuable suggestions about chemistry and vanishing tungsten heaters and other peripheral issues. But they have no direct, in depth experience with a successful BLP experiment so they cannot get to the heart of the matter. I know this is true because the BLP people themselves struggled long and hard to make the thing work. If the people who have supposedly mastered this experiment do not assist Scott directly, one on one, in person, then I think it is extremely unlikely he can make it work. And even if he does make the thing go off once, I doubt he can make it readily reproducible. This is NOT a criticism of Scott's abilities. I do not think anyone on earth could do it without spending nearly as much time as the BLP people themselves spent. I know this is true of other CF experiments because *every single expert* who replicated the effect has told me so. Bockris, Mizuno, Fleischmann or Miles would never try to debug a electrochemical experiment based on a few fragmented e-mail descriptions. They would never comment on such work, or presume they could make serious recommendations. At conferences I have asked them what they thought of this or that paper. They usually say there is not enough information. When they are interested in learning the details, they speak directly with the authors. I cannot follow these discussions, but I have read and translated enough electrochemistry to know that they are on the level of a PhD graduate oral exam: Serious Nitty-Gritty Science. Again, let me point out that Mizuno and his assistant spent eight months preparing for one experiment. They were extremely busy the whole time. They plugged leaks and finally redesigned the cell to prevent the leaks. They purified electrolyte, prepared the 'getter' electrodes and the palladium cathode, they did hundreds of other tasks. Suppose Scott Little were to read the BARC translations of Mizuno's 1991 and 1992 papers (which I have found handy for cribbing the details in Chapters 4 and 5). Suppose Scott attempted to replicate that experiment based on those papers alone. In my opinion, his chances of success on a scale of 1 to 10 would be somewhere down around ten to the minus eight. Why? Because in 30 years Mizuno learned a lot about how to do electrochemistry. He worked with people Enyo and Bockris for 12 hours a day for months on end. He could not package his know-how in two journal papers, or 10 journal papers, or 100 papers. He wrote a paper outlining a small but critical aspect of the work: how he determined the depth of deuterium penetration, both experimentally and theoretically, by etching and bombarding the sample with an accelerator beam. During the 8 months of preparation that Scott would have to devote to this experiment, if he made one tiny unnoticed mistake -- something most of us would never imagine could makes a difference -- the experiment would go awry. We know it would because Mizuno himself often failed to make it work, and he does not know why. He can list a dozen potential problems that he considers worth investigating, but that isn't the same as knowing why it failed. In other words, he can outline a research program that would take a team of twenty experts a decade to complete. I know he can because I have asked him to do just that. If millions of dollars and hundreds of man-years are devoted to this research, someday an expert will sit down and write a textbook codifying the techniques and teaching what to look out for. That will make the BLP cell as easy to make as a Nicad battery or CD-ROM controller or some other high-tech contraption. For now, however, asking the readers of this forum what might have gone wrong is about as effective as asking a programmer to diagnose a bug in program he did not write with source code he as never seen. Science and technology are not guessing games. These experiments are nothing like the classic 18th and 19th century experiments that a conscientious person could replicate without specialized PhD level knowledge and experience. To be sure, some interesting anomalous energy related experiments that do fall in this category. The Marinov motor described in this issue of I.E. is supposedly simple. The Griggs machine may not be difficult to replicate, although it is bear to operate in the steam mode. Harold Aspden has described some elegant and remarkably simple experiments. But BLP and CF experimenters say their work is anything but simple. Perhaps they are exaggerating the difficulties to discourage competition, but after watching the field for eight years I do not think so. I have not seen a paper, patent, or conference presentation that struck me as "easy." Martin Fleischmann has said all along it is difficult and he does not have a handle on the control parameters. I think he means it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:25:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31510; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:22:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:22:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34D219E5.1CC8 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:20:21 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n3hxe1.0.0i7.pfXqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > > Good work, Scott. I have always had the impression that you are an > excellent experimentalist. This confirms my belief. > Indeed! Hey, Scott - how about a quick(?) side experiment? Take a clear, 110 volt light bulb - maybe 300 watt. Could you rig up a rubber vacuum hose connection to the whole base? It would be neat to evacuate the hose, break off the vacuum tit of the bulb, and backfill the bulb with a "test run" level of H2 and see how long the filiment lasted. The idea here being almost no metal inside except for the W and supports. One complication - the filiment wires need some outfeeds through the vacuum wall. Any interest? (SAFETY SHIELDS, OF COURSE!!) Scratch this if a bulb implosion would ruin your vacuum system! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 10:27:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04933; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:17:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:17:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:10:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2daa$5b3da9e0$8093410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"A10rX2.0._C1.aaXqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It looks like the "Bull in The China Shop" experimental approach isn't doing too good,is it? The 2,000 K tungsten filament is putting out a nice bell-curve of energy peaked at 1.6 microns (0.78 ev) with a tail at 0.5 microns (2.48 ev) and out to 4 microns (0.31 ev). The adsorbed oxygen on all of the surfaces is reacting with the fresh H2 with "photo-catalysis" and hitting the hot tungsten and oxidizing it to WOx which is setting up the water cycle that chews up the filament in an hour or less, making a day's work worthless except for seeing how fast you can ruin a filament and how good/bad your equipment is running. :-) This could be circumvented by purging with H2 several times during bakeout (before lighting the filament)to rid the system of oxygen so as to get some stable reference runs before adding the potassium/-carriers. Expensive Infrared "Heater", isn't it? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 11:27:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14400; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:20:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:20:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980130142102.00ad05c0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:21:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Amazing report in Sochi (fwd) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id LAA14375 Resent-Message-ID: <"7Moz3.0.tW3.6WYqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 06:43 PM 1/29/98 -0800, William Beaty wrote: >Evidence for inverse electrochemically induced solid state D(d,gamma)He4 >nuclear reactions and a possible powerful method for cooling a physics >system. > >ġA large heat absorption effect was observed in an open type >electrochemically loaded deuterium - palladium system. The heat absorption >is believed to be an interrupted phenomenon during electrolytic loading of >deuterium and to be associated with inverse d-d reactions, which is >characterized by a high speed of temperature drop 19 C /3 minutes) in >350c.c. Others, especially those who have worked with PdD systems may want to comment, however, the above seems consistant with outgassing events that Tom Droghe observed. Most of the cooling Tom saw came from the expansion of the released gas. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 11:40:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16066; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D2284C.18F6 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:21:48 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game References: <199801301313_MC2-3143-6B87 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dzG2K3.0.uw3.9cYqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > (snip) > I am sorry to say this again, but I think that Scott's approach, as > exemplified by these questions, is a futile waste of time. (snip) > There are only a few people in the world who could tell Scott where to look > and what may have gone wrong: the people at BLP, and others who have > replicated the experiment. All other experts are disqualified. Perhaps, Jed. But I can't recall seeing a better defense of a "priesthood" than your words in this post. This priesthood thing relative to conventional science is just what I keep endlessly hearing harangues about on vortex. How does one gain twenty years of experience without doing the first week's work? If we feel that Scott will fail and quit after a few months effort - so what? With the secretive and crass commercial approach these outfits flaunt their "priestly" inside knowledge, I'm sure a few negative results by the unwashed masses won't derail their journey to riches and fame (if their ideas are worth a damn in the first place!). As for Scott's tests, with input from the likes of Mike Schaffer, Fred Sparber, etc., I feel I'm learning way more than required to justify my tuning in. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 14:18:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13472; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:05:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:05:48 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <1debbd7c.34d24bea aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:53:44 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"2kGZZ.0.OI3.wwaqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15620 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-01-30 13:24:33 EST, you write: > One complication - the filiment wires need some outfeeds > through the vacuum wall. Any interest? (SAFETY SHIELDS, OF COURSE!!) > Scratch this if a bulb implosion would ruin your vacuum system! > Frank Stenger Would not the bulb filiment leads still be sealed thru the glass lamp base? This sounds interesting Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 14:45:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11742; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:40:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:40:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:34:21 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199801301737_MC2-3153-4561 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ykvoN1.0.Ot2.NRbqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Francis J. Stenger writes: As for Scott's tests, with input from the likes of Mike Schaffer, Fred Sparber, etc., I feel I'm learning way more than required to justify my tuning in. Me too! It is marvelous stuff, and educational, but it does not appear to serve any practical purpose. If -- as seems likely -- Scott fails to replicate, I will make two points: 1. It will prove nothing. 2. He will have wasted his time when he should have gone to BLP and *asked for help*. No. 2 is my substantive point. Has he approached them, and if not, why not? Perhaps I missed that part of the story. Perhaps BLP refuses to talk to him? They do not talk to me often. If they will not share their technology Scott is left in the position of trying to reverse engineer it from inadequate and incomplete information. That, I submit, is a fool's game. I said that all other experts but the BLP people are disqualified, and I pointed out that Fleischmann and the others have been sayings since day 1 that these experiments are difficult and unpredictable. Stenger responds: Perhaps, Jed. But I can't recall seeing a better defense of a "priesthood" than your words in this post. This priesthood thing relative to conventional science is just what I keep endlessly hearing harangues about on vortex. You do not hear them from me. "Priesthood" is a loaded word, but I think this model does, in fact, describe how the modern world works, whether we like it or not. People have romantic notions about independence and our ability to master our technology, but frankly, I think it is bunk. We *are* dependent upon experts and their increasingly rarified knowledge. Most of us would die without them. We need the experts who manufacture Intel processors, run the air traffic control system, install fiber-optic lines, keep the sewers working, and do a million other jobs that take years to master. These jobs are more complex than they were a generation ago when linemen strung copper wires and sewage was dumped into the environment from a much smaller population. Look, nobody here would dispute that it takes experts to manufacture things like computer chips, high performance alkaline batteries, or LCD screens. If Scott announced he is trying to make a working copy of a Pentium chip in his basement we would all agree he is nuts. Of course a CF device is easier than a Pentium, but based on my discussions with Mizuno and Scott Little, I conclude it is much harder than Scott believes, and that he is missing gobs of information. I know I am! Maybe Scott will get lucky, or maybe it isn't as hard as Mizuno thinks, but after 8 years I have watched many people like Scott and Tom Droege fail, and I am forced to agree with Mizuno. Scott has said he could demonstrate the basic principals of alkaline batteries, transistors and whatnot, so he ought to be able to crank out a crude CF device (or BLP device). I think he is wrong. I believe there a many objects he could not demonstrate even in principle, like LCDs (I think); fission bombs (I know - even if we gave him materials); or the 1705 Newcomen engine. Anyone can make *a* steam engine (I have a cute toy one), but replicating that particular one without killing yourself is difficult, according to the British professor who did it. How does one gain twenty years of experience without doing the first week's work? I would start by taking graduate courses in electrochemistry. If we feel that Scott will fail and quit after a few months effort - so what? So he has wasted his time and he has contributed to the myth that cold fusion cannot be replicated. With the secretive and crass commercial approach these outfits flaunt their "priestly" inside knowledge . . . I do not see them that way. I think this is an unfair characterization. Everyone knows that I have no love to spare for CETI or BLP but I acknowledge that they are profit making businesses, and that most people would consider it BLP's fiduciary responsibility to guard their secrets. I believe that under these unique & extraordinary circumstances, this is a misguided business strategy. They disagree with me. Perhaps they are right. Certainly, nobody can fault them for doing the conventional thing and following policies they believe are correct. . . . I'm sure a few negative results by the unwashed masses won't derail their journey to riches and fame (if their ideas are worth a damn in the first place!). The unwashed Scott Little will have no effect if he fails. That's the problem! I want him to take steps that will increase his chances of success. I want him to make a positive difference. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 15:21:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15288; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:08:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:08:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D25673.45C interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:38:43 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! References: <1debbd7c.34d24bea aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1c2Ee1.0.dk3.zrbqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > Would not the bulb filiment leads still be sealed thru the glass lamp base? > This sounds interesting I see what you mean, Vince. I wasn't sure you could get a vacuum hose on the small part of the bulb fill boss. If you could, then the lead wires could be outside the vacuum and there would be no problem. I'll have to tear open a bulb to refresh my memory on the details. I was thinking it would be nice to break the bulb tit under vacuum (some kind of probe thru a rubber-hose flex connection) if possible to keep O2 out entirely. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 15:25:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA30087; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:22:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:22:16 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:21:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd2dd5$d00da100$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Fof1u1.0.uL7.b2cqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > >I am sorry to say this again, but I think that Scott's approach, as >exemplified by these questions, is a futile waste of time. Jack Smith may be a >smart fellow, talented and experienced in many ways, but he cannot know why >this experiment has failed. This is unreplicated, cutting edge new science. >Nobody knows why it fails. Nobody can be sure it worked in the first place! > Come on Jed, Scott has a chance to make this work. These 300 C vacuum experiments are not all that exotic and BLP is telling enough of the details to at least make a reasonable attempt. It's too bad that they have so far chosen to be uncooperative. Perhaps you could ask them about this when you are able to contact them again. Scott, how about a quartz tube around the filament with the catalyst inside in close proximity as shown by BLP. This should limit H2O generation by limiting atomic H interaction with the stainless steel surfaces. A very small amount of catalyst would limit the KNO3 oxygen / H2O damage to the filament. Your proposal of moving the KNO3 closer to the filament is definitely a reasonable next step. Keep up the great work Scott! George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 15:58:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22544; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:54:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:54:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D267EB.2687 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:53:15 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game References: <199801301737_MC2-3153-4561 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"VF-Af.0.7W5.dWcqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Scott Little will have no effect if he fails. That's the problem! > I want him to take steps that will increase his chances of success. I want him > to make a positive difference. > OK, Jed, but my bottom line here is that I feel this project of Scott's fits this list really well! Scott is out in the open on the project and I just don't see how we can fail to learn something by joining in. I must say that I'm amazed at the manhours Scott is finding to put on the job, but, I'm not inclined to look the gift horse ITM. I'm retired so I work cheap (as the value of my comments would indicate!). Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 16:15:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10270; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:07:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:07:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:07:07 +1100 Message-Id: <199801310107.MAA10312 main.murray.net.au> X-Sender: egel mail.sa.ozland.net.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Geoff Egel Subject: Re: testatika and capacitor anomolies Resent-Message-ID: <"us5ZD.0.LW2.-icqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:23 AM 1/28/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:53:48 -1000 Rick Monteverde > writes:>Also, I wonder if you couldn't use >an electret in a capacitor to force a>rather high set point. Couldn't you >then discharge it repeatedly, and >each time it would tend to spring back >to that set point - provided the >leads had easy access to a reservoir of >charge like you usually have in the >air of ordinary environments?>>- >Rick Monteverde>Honolulu, HIHi Rick,This is what intrigues me about the >Testatika machine. How about a Wimhurst generator to stimulate the For those that are interested I have put forth this theory at my web page http://geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/1135 I believe I have the most detailed Swiss Ml page to date will be putting some additional info shortly. Geoff Egel From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 18:06:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09037; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:57:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:57:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:50:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: George Marklin cc: Vortex mailing list Subject: Re: A ZPE Force Generator In-Reply-To: <34D20648.3BDE flash.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"YELkh.0.7D2.hJeqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If this was so most space borne telescopes would be moved by it. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 19:18:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19481; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:10:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:10:16 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:08:48 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34da90b4.141258343 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00@spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"phJrn3.0.Em4.JOfqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:30:54 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: [snip] > However, and it is a big however, there is a reaction pathway: > > h + energy ---> p+ + e- h + 13.6 eV ---> p+ + e- > p+ + h- ---> h2+ + energy The charge in this reaction doesn't balance. Did you mean: p+ + h- --> h2+ + e- + 1.85 eV, or perhaps p+ + h --> h2+ + 2.65 eV ? Of these two, the latter results in only a single particle, which makes it improbable as part of a chain reaction. The former requires a prior step of h + e- --> h- (presumably with photon emission). I'm not sure how fast such a reaction takes place. > h2+ + h --> h2 + p+ + energy h2+ + h --> h2 + p+ + 1.826 eV > > > Let one little cosmic ray into your tank of single-H gas, and you have >a very large explosion. I can't remember for sure, but I think that the >second step doesn't happen in a liquid, making it relatively stable. > [snip] > > Neffer hoppen GI! Monoatomic oxygen is not stable under any >circumstances I know of. The similar key to the one above is >O + O --> O2+ + e-, and it will happen. This reaction is as far as I can determine endothermic. I.e. O + O --> O2+ + e- -6.954 eV So I suspect that it won't happen without help. What sort of help did you have in mind? >However diatomic H2 and O2 can be >mixed without problem--in a dark room. UV light is enough to start a chain >reaction, but if you are careful, you can avoid an explosion! Each ion >created starts a single chain, and if the gasses are cool enough, chains >die out faster than they can be started. The closest you can come to >monoatomic oxygen other than in an electrolytic solution is Xenon trioxide. > It makes monoatomic hydrogen look well behaved. [snip] If you have never seen monatomic oxygen *in isolation*, then how do you know that it is so difficult to handle? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 19:20:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19458; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:10:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:10:09 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:08:45 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34d98f8e.140964488 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980123143614.00bbe370@spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980128104922.00bfeb80@spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980128104922.00bfeb80 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xX3Jv3.0.ul4.FOfqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:49:22 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >At 07:14 AM 1/24/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>It's the last bit that hides the magic. Exactly how does energy get >>out of the black hole to turn the virtual particle into a real one? >>(I.e. to repay Heisenberg :). > > Think for a moment, and you will see it. The particles are twinned. Well that does it for me right there. I have no faith in "twinning" anyway. (I suspect the whole lot is based on faulty assumptions). [snip] > Huh? Quantum tunnelling is not limited by light speed, and that is a >fact verified by experiment. Except that I suspect these people drew the wrong conclusions from their experiments, due to faulty assumptions. But is all honesty, I haven't really looked into it very deeply. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 19:41:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25252; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:37:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:37:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Kirk Shanahan on A&Z and 'froth" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:06:06 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980131034027957.AAA153 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"-wfLk3.0.TA6.onfqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rich posted some comments by Kirk, with some of his own. The post is long, so I will quote only those portions pertaining to A&Z. -------------- This is Rich talking: > Fierce fluctuations in the froth well would >produce the notably wide variations in dramatic apparent excessive heat, >up, down, slow, fast, shown in Arata's months of data. Such a H2 froth >well reacts in complicated, unpredictable ways with the recombination >catalyst, producing notable heat excursions instead of steady >recombination. This is, of course, conjecture. The diagram of Fig 5 shows a small capsule at the bottom of a pool of electrolyte and an air space separating it from the recombination catalyst. What Rich totally ignores is that there is calibration data using exactly the same physical configuration with a Pt cathode instead of the DS cathode. The calibration data show no evidence of "froth". Rich is thus logically confronted that something about the DS cathode produces these dramatic effects. That something also produces 4He and 3He inside the cathode. There is no reason to suppose that the reactions inside the DS cathode have to be steady. Now Kirk Shanahan speaks: kkkkkkkkkk In principle, use of a recombination catalyst is a very good idea. It takes all the chemically stored energy and returns it back to the cell. As long as the calibration is done right, the cell should work. But of course, I am suggesting a way simple calibration can be inadequate. If the recombination is not 100%, pressure should build up in the cell (but might be offset by recombination at the electrodes), so any excursions should be lower output heat combined with increased internal pressure. Given that all we have in the A&Z case is an 'artist's sketch', we have to guess that their drawing reflects reality. If so, their major point of heat transfer from the cell to the cooling coil is near the cathodes. That is an optimum setup for the effect I am proposing. The calibration conducted when no significant recombination at the electrodes was active would reflect the insulating properties of the gas phase which separates the recombiner from the electrolyte. Turn on recombination at the cathode and suddenly a greater fraction of heat gets to the coil and is observed. It's just speculation though, a good paper might have had enough detail in it to evaluate my proposal more critically, but of course A&Z don't bother with details. kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk MC: This is complete conjecture. Fig 5 does not indicate that the capsule is "near" the cooling coil. In fact it is above the cathode capsule and the anode cylinder is also within the cooling coil. This setup encourages a strong convection plume up the center, mixed with evolved D2 gas, and returning down outside the coil, thoroughly mixed. Further mixing is provided by O2 gas evolving from the anode cylinder. The statement that "A&Z don't bother with details" only reflects a lack of study of the available data, which are sufficient to show that Kirk's conjecture is without merit. MC: He offers no rationale as to why the purported recombination at the electrodes -- which are evolving gas under electrolytic action -- would not be present during calibration with a Pt cathode, but would "turn on" with the DS cathode. kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk The underlying hypothesis here and in most of my thinking on CF is that there are catalytic sites on the Pd that have to grow in with time by an unknown process. Those sites are particularly effective at recombination. Also, I feel they have a finite lifetime, i.e. they slowly go away, which is why the 'CF effect' turns off and on sporadically. kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk MC: No doubt there are catalytic sites involved in CF an we don't understand them. In a 1994 paper translated by Akiri Kawasaki, A&Z clearly state that they had a DS capsule which give strong excess heat over long runs, and was repeatedly turned on and off, restarting each time, even after a year's idle time. This is robust performance. Kirk should base his arguments on strong experiments, not weak ones. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 21:05:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10908; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:00:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:00:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980130225531.0086aa50 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:55:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game In-Reply-To: <199801301737_MC2-3153-4561 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"25IgI2.0.Lg2.z_gqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: First, we would love to have BLP's cooperation and assistance. We have asked them several times in writing for cooperation and there has never been any response. First thing next week I intend to print out all our BLP run reports and include them in a letter to Mills asking again for help and offering our cooperation and support for development of his technology. One of the main reasons we chose this gas-phase experiment is the relatively wide range of parameters and configurations that will generate hydrinos, according to BLP. In the several experiments they describe, there are only three ingredients: 1. hydrogen gas 2. hot filament 3. K catalyst and two critical parameters: 1. pressure 2. temperature Maybe it took them years to find the necessary combinations of these ingredients and parameters but, with that information in hand, we should be able to replicate their experiment in a very short time. Our investment in this experiment is definitely a gamble. If we succeed in seeing the excess heat effect, it will pay off big. If we fail, it will only prove that our particular recipes don't work. Thanks for all the excellent suggestions for cleaning up this experiment and the supportive words. We'll keep flogging away at it a while longer...and give Mills another good chance to see that helping us replicate his experiment would be beneficial for him. Scott Little EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Jan 30 22:53:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16896; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:49:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:49:32 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP Runs & Tungsten Trivia Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:34:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2df9$18e661a0$9093410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kgfjE2.0.t74.vbiqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Thoriated Tungsten filaments are made by mixing 1% to 2% thoria (ThO2, m.p 3500 K)into the tungsten. At about 2500 K the surface thoria loses it's oxygen to the tungsten forming WOx which boils of leaving a monolayer of thorium with about 70% coverage of the tungsten. The more electropositive W attracts the electrons in the thorium which creates a positive charge on the thorium surface which increases the electron emission of the thoriated tungsten to about 5E5 amperes/meter^2 at 2,000 K as opposed to 10 amperes/meter^2 for pure tungsten at 2,000 K. In addition to this the thorium layer can retard rapid oxidation of the filament. An ancillary treatment of the thoriated tungsten is to decompose a hydrocarbon (CH4) on the heated filament which forms a tungsten carbide coating which also retards oxidation and evaporation. The H2 is pulled out of the system with the vacuum pump. Electron Work Functions and Ionization Potentials (ev) and Pauling Negativity: K 2.22 4.34 0.82 W 4.54 7.98 2.36 Th 3.40 6.08 1.30 It is well known that the potassium will ionize upon contact with the hot tungsten (the above numbers give a reason why). However, the presence of an oxide (WOx)on the filament could cause formation of KOx and nix the formation of K+ ions. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 05:35:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25119; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 05:33:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 05:33:31 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34D3182D.712ACBC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:25:17 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980130081952.00867410@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2b8lp2.0.K86.gWoqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: Hi Jack, You've got my attention! Please tell me which of the problems strikes you as being responsible for the lack of excess heat!? Hi Scott, My guess is the main problem is the presence of the tungsten filament. I suggest that you run with a continuous H2 bleed, analogous to a cstr (continuous stirred tank reactor), holding the H2 partial pressure at 2 torr. At first you must get the walls as hot as possible to cook off the tungsten residues, possibly activating the surface nickle. In subsequent runs, you could lower the temperature to 300 C and look at the effect of (large) changes in Reynolds number. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 07:09:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA00486; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:05:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:05:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199801311505.KAA19672 gateway.minimal.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:05:37 -0500 From: rmuha minimal.com (ralph muha) To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [from s.p.r] The Schrodinger equation and quaternions Organization: minimal, limited Resent-Message-ID: <"UAACq.0.O7.Jtpqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: : From: Doug Sweetser : Newsgroups: sci.physics.research : Subject: The Schrodinger equation and quaternions : Date: 28 Jan 1998 21:46:46 -0500 : : Hello: : : In this post I will write the Schrodinger equation using quaternions. : Along the way, the mystery of first quantization--where energy and : momentum get treated as operators instead of numbers--will be : explained. A few of the consequences of this approach will be : discussed. : : The Schrodinger equation gives the kinetic energy plus the potential : (this sum is also known as the Hamiltonian H) of a wave function psi, : which contains all the dynamic information about a system. Psi is a : scalar function that takes on complex values. : : E psi = KE (P^2/2m psi) + V psi : H psi = - i hbar d psi/dt = - hbar^2/2 m Del^2 psi + V(0, X) psi : : In the time-independent case, energy is the operator - i hbar d/dt. : Momentum is also written as an operator, not a number. Given : the potential V(0, X) and suitable boundary conditions, solving this : equation generates a wave function psi which contains all the : properties of that system. : : My hypothesis is that the total wave function Y is the following : combination of quaternion operators and fields. : : Y = [cos, V/||V|| sin]((w, K)(t, X) + ((w, K)(t, X))*)/2 : : w is the angular frequency scalar K is the wave 3-vector : t is the time, a scalar X is the position 3-vector : cos and sin act on scalars V is a phase 3-vector : ||V|| = (V* V)^.5, a scalar : : Doesn't look like quantum mechanics, does it? That's the fun of this : sport: start from a seemingly irrelevant collection of operators and : fields, then play math games until it looks like familiar physics. : : Now to deconstruct that definition. : : (q + q*)/2 = (scalar(q), 0) : : ((w, K)(t, X) + ((w, K)(t, X))*)/2 = (wt - K.X, 0) : : The trig operators act on this scalar. : : Y = [cos, V/||V|| sin](wt - K.X, 0) : : = (cos(wt - K.X), V/||V|| sin(wt - K.X)) : : The phase 3-vector V/||V|| is similar to the imaginary number i, : except that two phases do not necessarily commute. : : i^2 = -1 (V/||V||)^2 = -1 : i* i = 1 (V/||V||)* V/||V|| = 1 : : Let me define phase 3-vector as capital I = V/||V||. The total wave : function as defined here is always normalized. : : Y* Y = (cos^2 (wt - K.X) + I* I sin^2 (wt - K.X), 0) : : = (1, 0) : : Extend Euler's formula--Exp(i theta) = cos(theta) + i sin(theta)--to : quaternions, with theta = wt - K.X and i -> I. : : Y = Exp(I (wt - K.X)) : : According to my hypothesis, the total wave function Y is a : normalized quaternion exponential with a phase 3-vector I and an : angle determined by the scalar wt - K.X. The angular frequency w is : related to the Energy E by Einstein's photon hypothesis, E = h nu : : w = 2 pi nu = 2 pi E/h = E/hbar : : The wave 3-vector K maps to the momentum 3-vector P by de Broglie's : wavelength equation, P = h/lambda. : : K = 2 pi/lambda = 2 pi P/h = P/hbar : : Substitute for the angular frequency w and the wave 3-vector K into : the total wave function Y : : Y = Exp(I (Et - P.X)/hbar) : : This is starting to look like physics, specifically the plane wave : solution for a free particle. Take the partial time derivative. : : dY/dt = I/hbar (E + t dE/dt - d(P.X)/dt) Y + (Et - P.X)/hbar dI/dt Y : : Multiply both sides by I^-1 hbar = -I hbar (Why does the inverse of : the phase equal its negative? The inverse of any quaternion is the : transpose divided by the norm. The transpose of a 3-vector is the : negative of the 3-vector. The norm is one. Voila.) : : - I hbar dY/dt = (E + t dE/dt - d(P.X)/dt) Y : : In the time-independent case, E, P and X are not functions of time so : : - I hbar d psi/dt = E psi Y -> psi for time-indep. : : Thus : : - I hbar d/dt = E : : For the time-independent wave function psi, energy is identical to : the operator -I hbar d/dt! The equivalence of energy and this : operator is known as the first quantization. : : Repeat this process for the spatial derivative of the total wave : function. : : Del Y = I/hbar (-P - X Del.P + Del Et) Y + (Et - P.X)/hbar DelxI Y : : If Y is time-independent, then Del Et = 0. I'm not sure why this is so, : but set X Del.P = 0. Multiply through by -I hbar to give: : : - I hbar Del psi = - P psi : : Momentum is equivalent to the operator I hbar Del. This operator : can be squared to yield : : - hbar^2 Del^2 psi = P^2 psi : : Define the kinetic energy in terms of this momentum. : : KE = m v^2/2 = (mv)^2/2 m = P^2/2 m = - hbar^2/2 m Del^2 : : The Hamiltonian of a system is the sum of the kinetic energy and the : potential energy. Write out the Hamiltonian of the the wave function Psi. : : H Psi = - I hbar d Psi/dt = - hbar^2/2 m Del^2 Psi + V(0, X) Psi : : This is the Schrodinger wave equation written as a quaternion. One : change involves the imaginary number i being replaced by the : noncommuting phase 3-vector I. Even more importantly, the wave : function Psi is not a quaternion, just like every other object in the : equation, including the operators. By choosing different potentials : V(0, X), it should be possible to solve the standard collection of : problems that confront the Schrodinger equation using quaternions : (but I've yet to do the work :-) : : What has been accomplished? We ended up very close to the : Schrodinger equation, one difference involving the commutativity of : i. There is probably a paper out there dealing with this topic, if I : could only find it :-) A subtle difference with subtle consequences? : That will have to await further work. : : The lesson of first quantization--that energy and momentum are : operators--holds only under the assumption of time-independence. : When E, P and X are functions of time, other terms in the partial time : derivative of the total wave function survive. : : What is most interesting about this line of work is not where I end : up--someplace familiar like with Schrodinger--but where I start, : often one step back from more typical approaches. At the center of : the total wave function is the scalar, wt - K.X. This scalar gets : packaged into a polar form to ease analysis. There are a number of : equivalent ways to write the scalar. : : (Et - P.X)/hbar = wt - K.X = 2 pi (nu t - 1/lambda . X) : : = 2 pi (t/t' - 1/X' . X) : : There is no difference among these four ways of writing this scalar : which is at the heart of the wave function so is the focus of the : Schrodinger equation. I find the last way the most suggestive: : : if (t/t' - 1/X' . X) is : an integer "n" a half integer "n/2" : Y = (cos(2 pi n), I sin(2 pi n) Y = (cos(pi n), I sin(pi n)) : = (1, 0) = (1, 0) or (0, +/- I) : : I still don't quite understand this message, but it keeps me wondering. : : : Doug : http://world.com/~sweetser : : Pushing physics backwards, : listening for the source of mathematics of nature. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 07:29:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19348; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:27:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:27:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980131092437.0085e9c0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:24:37 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! In-Reply-To: <34D3182D.712ACBC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980130081952.00867410 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3PvXR.0.8k4.vBqqq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:25 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Taylor J. Smith wrote: >Hi Scott, > >My guess is the main problem is the presence of >the tungsten filament. It's not the _presence_ of the W filament. BLP uses a W filament. >I suggest that you run >with a continuous H2 bleed... At the right flow rate, that should eliminate the water cycle problem...all the atomic H would leave the chamber before it could reach the walls, grab O, and return to the filament. I'd have to reconfigure the gas plumbing to get a flow thru the chamber....sigh. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 12:13:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15190; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:06:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:06:13 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Re: BLP--Tungsten, Potassium, Hydrogen ,Thoughts Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:00:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2e82$ef275380$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"YlZn3.0.Gj3.pGuqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The hot tungsten can ionize potassium or other alkali metals as is well known and exploited in Thermionic Converters: K + HOT W ---> K+ The splitting of H2 against hot tungsten to 2 H is also known. The Electronegativity ("the power of an atom of a molecule to attract an electron") of tungsten 2.36 vs K 0.82 (not to be confused with electron affinity)possibly with the aid of a photon from the hot filament, or work function differences, can explain this. Then A Miracle Happens, a Light Lepton Pair allows the K+ to sequester the LL- forming K*. Contact of K* with H2 effects transfer of the LL- to one of the hydrogen atoms, forming the Hydrino. For Charge Balance a LL+ Must couple to an electron forming an Electrino releasing energy also. Thus the need for Hot Tungsten, Potassium,And Hydrogen at the proper Temperature and Pressure in the BLP experiments. K+ and H+ (or H)in other O/U systems that can produce the LL pairs should form Hydrinos and Electrinos also. The Laws of Physics that allow pair production at energies of; n*Ee/alpha^n' or n*Ee*alpha^n' (where Ee is the electron pair progenitor photon energy, 1.02 Mev or more) show no conflict with this possibility. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 14:22:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03139; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:19:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:19:15 -0800 From: "Paul Brown" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:18:29 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2e96$28525b60$30a99bcf isonix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JvtEz.0.zm.XDwqq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have come in late, and I have no idea what the BLP is. Where do I find a description of this BLP work? It appears to be a vacuum tube rather than a cold fusion device. I would like someone to point me in the right direction just so that I may understand this BLP discussion. Thanks, Paul Brown -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 8:37 AM Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 19:13:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29505; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:04:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:04:22 -0800 (PST) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:47:41 -0800 Subject: Re: BLP Run 9 - tantalizing! Message-ID: <19980131.184748.4414.0.tv juno.com> References: <01bd2e96$28525b60$30a99bcf isonix> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-8,11-15,17-18,20,22-26 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"gwszQ.0.xC7.pO-qq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Paul, Check out www.blacklightpower.com lots of info about it there. (Except the most important details, I suppose) Basically, Dr. Mills believes that hydrogen atoms can be catalyzed to shrink below ground state to what he calls "hydrinos". Releasing great amounts of energy in the process. Tim Vaughan ( tv juno.com ) On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:18:29 -0700 "Paul Brown" writes: >I have come in late, and I have no idea what the BLP is. Where do I >find a description of this BLP work? It appears to be a vacuum tube rather >than a cold fusion device. I would like someone to point me in the right >direction just so that I may understand this BLP discussion. >Thanks, >Paul Brown _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 20:46:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14038; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:38:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:38:41 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: A&Z papers, 1994, -6,-7 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:34:51 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980201044251367.AAA202 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"aN26x1.0.3R3.Dn_qq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have reviewed the above papers. The first is the translation by Akira Kawasaki, the second two are from Proceedings of the Japan Academy. It is apparent now that the 56 page 1997 paper discussed here is a compilation of earlier work, brought together in what might be called a commemorative issue. The earlier papers contain details sought by Rich Murray and Kirk Shanahan, which effectively nullify conjectures which they have made in the past weeks. I will discuss previous postings by Kirk and Rich in the light of these details in future posts, but for now I will cite essential features gleaned from these reports. Capsule dimensions 5.0 cm long x 2.0 cm dia. for 1994 experiments, indicated range 5-12 cm long, 1-2 cm OD.. Interior Cavity 4-8 mm. ID Fill - 0.1 mole, packed, in vacuum. Packing density unspecified, will be <1. 0.1 mole = 10.6 gm. Pd sp.gr.=12.2; Packed volume 10.6/12.2 ~ 0.9 cc. If cavity is 4 cm long, d ~ .5 cm, consistent with diameter range given. Particle size. Two sizes are given, 0.4 and 0.04 u. The former is in the 1994 paper and carried over to the 1997 paper in Fig.7 The latter is in the 1996 paper, carried over to 1997 in the photomicrographs. Apparently there were two series of experiments. Operating capsule temperatures in the range of 30 C, with interior ~ 1 deg C warmer than outside. No boiling, no "hot froth". This is not inconsistent with photomicrographs showing partial melting of Pd black particles at the 0.04 u scale, for these are extremely localized. Incubation time of ~ 250 hours in a fresh cathode before heat production begins, During this time a graph shows that Q out closely tracks Q in, with very little "noise". This is a cross check on the calibration runs with Pt cathodes and verifies the low "noise" in the calorimetry. When heat production begins, it begins abruptly and remains 50-100% higher than the input power. A cell was tuned on and off, restarting within 10 minutes and rising to full output in one hour after power off 70 min. The cell was idled for a year and successfully restarted, with essentially the same performance as before. This is robust performance. Water flow is in the range of 350 ml/min, inlet-outlet delta T in the range of 2-3 C. When water flow is turned down , delta T rises a degree with no effect on excess heat. The "noise" in the delta T is of the order of +/- 0.5 C. In most of the plots, data points are at hour intervals. In one plot where the surface temperature of the capsule is measured, there is evidence of a cyclic variation in temperature with a period of 3-5 hours and a p-p amplitude of about 1 deg. C. Such variations, sampled and plotted at hour intervals, can give a jagged plot. . **Conjecture:** I have been puzzling about a possible source of such quasi-periodic variations. The recombiner may be a spongelike structure of Pt which the evolved gases can enter and form D2O2, releasing heat which is at that moment in the accumulating water, not in the electrolyte pool below. When enough fluid develops, the liquid may abruptly dump into the electrolyte pool below, introducing a heat pulse which will appear in the output measurement. Ideally, the return should be a steady drip, but perhaps it isn't. These dumps are probably quasi-periodic and when sampled at hourly intervals will give the appearance of irregularity. These variations are thus not indications of any flaw in the process or measurement. This is consistent with the observed facts. Perhaps someone in the group with actual experience can confirm or correct this conjecture. Cell voltage in the range of 2 -2.6 V. When cell input power is lowered, excess heat is lowered also. In one experiment, a capsule of stainless steel was packed with Pd black and equipped with an inlet capillary, then placed in the cell. The temperature of the electrolyte, capsule exterior, and capsule interior were monitored. Deuterium gas was admitted to the Pd black inside. Within 20+ minutes, the internal temperature rose from 23 to ~ 30 C, with the capsule somewhat less, but by 60 minutes, the capsule had cooled to the electrolyte temperature. This demonstrates that the Pd black readily absorbs the D gas and the reaction starts but then stops as no new deuterium is migrating through the wall of the stainless steel capsule. In the 1994 paper, details on the spillover effect are given. Measurements of the interior pressure of a capsule were taken under different circumstances. When the capsule is empty, there is an incubation period between the application of electrolysis power and the pressure rise in the capsule, indicative of the time required for D+ to migrate through the wall. Both the incubation period and the rate of pressure rise are clear functions of the cell current. For 640 ma, the incubation period is ~ 0.8 hr. and rate of rise 2.5 atm/hr. For 100 ma, the incubation period is ~ 2.9 hr and the rate of rise is 0.8 atm/hr. With the cell packed, at 640 ma, the incubation period is 4 hr and the rate of rise 1.8 atm/hr. More importantly, if the power is switched off when the pressure rises to 4 atm: Empty capsule pressure falls at 0.25 atm/hr Packed capsule pressure falls at 0.083 atm/hr. If the packed Pd black were simply filling space, there would be little difference. Instead the increased incubation time and greatly reduced release rate both indicate very strong sorption of the D by the Pd black. I will discuss possible detailed mechanisms in another post. There are reasons to believe that D+ ions emerging from the inner surface of the active cathode shell will preferentially migrate over the touching surfaces of the Pd black particles until those surfaces are saturated before any D2 gas can evolve to register on a pressure gauge. The slow release of D2 gas from the Pd black is an indication of a strong asymmetry between the migration of D+ over the surface of the Pd black, and diffusion into the host lattice, and the release of D2 from the surface. This asymmetry is a chemical potential which participates in the loading of the host lattice. The loading/deloading is not symmetrical as Kirk Shanahan has suggested. Kirk has also posted warnings about possible explosions of the capsule, based on indications of very high pressure in the active sealed capsule and a note of capsule deformation. In this connection, there are clear indications that the capsule is packed under vacuum conditions. In 1994, 0.1 mole (~10 gm) is specified; in the 1997 paper, Pd loadings of 3 and 5 gm are mentioned. We don't know the packing factor, but following the DS concept, the cavity size and packing would be chosen so the cavity is essentially filled and contact between the Pd black and the interior wall is as complete as possible; in other words, no intentional voids will be left. This places a different aspect on the possibility of explosive hazards as postulated by Kirk. The 900+ atmosphere is the pressure of a very small amount of gas, <<1 ml. This is not 900 cc of gas compressed to 1 cc, nor 900 cc produced by burning fuel. This pressure seems contradicted by the measurement of the temperature probe in the capsule, which indicates in the range of 30 C. However, the internal pressure rise is driven by the electrolytic forces which continue to pump D+ into the capsule, which has very little void space. Thus small absolute quantities of D+, converting to D2, can produce large indicated gas pressure. The partial melting of particles indicates highly localized intense heating, not a general meltdown of the Pd black. Other tests with a capsule loaded with Pd filings -- not colloidal Pd black -- behave much like and empty capsule with reduced interior volume. The surface area and small particle size do make a difference. The 1996 and 1997 papers contain great detail about the reaction pathways and the QMS measurements. It is very clear that 3T, tritium was not produced, as assumed by Dick Blue. This is a test of the conventional Rutherford reactions, which produce 3T as well as 4He, 3He and radiation. Only heat, 4He and 3He were found, and indication of non-Rutherford reaction pathways. The various compounds of D and H were anticipated as contaminants and excluded by procedures I won't detail here. In retrospect, it is clear that A&Z have indeed been detailed and thorough in their work, and essential data has been published in a series of papers spanning a period of years. In the summary paper of 1997 which we have discussed here, summary results were given with details covered in earlier papers left out. We just didn't realize we were expecting too much of a summary. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Jan 31 23:40:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27122; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:27:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:27:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:25:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802010725.BAA24310 dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Stripping by resonance To: eachus mitre.org Cc: aki ix.netcom.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"2gQUH2.0.gd6.lF2rq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 31, 1998 Robert, Thank you for responding. Subsequently, I found in "Sourcebook of Atomic Energy" written by Samuel Glasstone (2nd ed. 1958) the mention of deuterons as a source for neutrons by "stripping". It mentions 2 mev needed to cause stripping of deuterons. You mention a value of approximately a tenth of that to produce neutrons from a target. Sure would like to trace down the original experimental source (your paper?). It would help rationalize the behavior of deuterium separate from hydrogen. In the meantime, I will keep your post for reference, if you do not mind. -ak- > In any case, experience has shown that any paper that assumes that >fissioning deuterium requires MeV level center of mass energies is >wrong. If you don't believe me, aim a 20 keV beam of deuterons at a >metal target, count the neutrons. You don't have to worry about 3 >sigma over background, you'll be closer to 3000 sigma. Of course, you >will probably up the background by neutron activation--select your >target carefully. Don't forget to use plenty of paraffin blocks and >wear your film badge.