From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 00:39:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12162; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:36:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:36:17 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <9c3a5afa.34d433db aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:35:37 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: The "Magnetic Paradox" experiment.... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"NUA3G1.0.yz2.0G3rq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have updated my web site with a very interesting experiment...This is the "Magnetic Paradox" experiment. You will find a very simple experiment about Electrodynamics that anyone can try. This experiment will show you that if you apply a "conventional" reasoning, many of you can't explain this "crazy" result.....Try this simple experiment, you will see what appends by yourself... Lets go, now, I shall explain you the problem : - Imagine a black box which has two connectors A and B on each opposite side. - Take one high impedance static millivoltmeter or better an oscilloscope. - Firstly, measure the voltage V1 on the left side of this Black Box between the points A and B. - Secondly, measure the voltage V2 on the right side of this Black Box between the points A and B.. What do you think about the voltages measured ? Is V1 measured potential the same as V2 or are they different ? Think for a few minutes about this, then see the solution at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/mpbbx.htm I hope that this will interest you, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin 02/01/98 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 03:54:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11935; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:51:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:51:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34D45BFB.8BAA360 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 14:26:51 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex , Horace Heffner Subject: Aperion new issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eOOHe1.0.Ow2.M76rq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This issue contain excellent articles. Covers many discussions subjects on the vortex. Not forget to read also the " issue". http://www.vif.com/users/apeiron/current.htm Volume 5 Numbers 1-2 (January-April 1998) Contents Covers (front and back) . R.H. Dishington: The Conservation Law . Jiang Chun-xuan: On the Limit for the Periodic Table of the Elements . Marcel Luttgens: Newton vs. Einstein . Jacques Moret-Bailly: Can Astronomers Observe a Difference between a Doppler Effect and Coherent Parametric Raman Scattering? . Héctor A. Múnera: Michelson-Morley Experiments Revisited: Systematic Errors, Consistency Among Different Experiments, and Compatibility with Absolute Space . V.N. Strel’tsov: Nonconservation of Charge and Energy as Consequences of Contracted Length Noncovariance . K.B. Ranger: Arbitrary Motion of a Viscous Incompressible Fluid . V.V. Dvoeglazov: Historical Note on Relativistic Theories of Electromagnetism . Ephemeris: J.P. Wesley: Induction Produces Aharonov-Bohm Effect; . P. Hillion: Review of Retardation and Relativity by Oleg D. Jefimenko . issue Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 03:53:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00021; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:50:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 03:50:32 -0800 Message-Id: <34D44F80.97BE7976 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 13:33:36 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Magnetic Paradox" experiment.... References: <9c3a5afa.34d433db aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wNJz82.0.F.766rq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi All, [snip] > > - Imagine a black box which has two connectors A and B on each opposite side. > - Take one high impedance static millivoltmeter or better an oscilloscope. > - Firstly, measure the voltage V1 on the left side of this Black Box between > the points A and B. > - Secondly, measure the voltage V2 on the right side of this Black Box between > the points A and B.. > > What do you think about the voltages measured ? > Is V1 measured potential the same as V2 or are they different ? > Are these voltages are AC or DC? (DC measurement or AC measurement do you suggest?) This only make sense (a controversial result) if you obtain different *DC* voltages by passing probe cables on different paths. Otherwise any variable magnetic field present around induce different emf on different loops normally. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 05:23:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06699; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:19:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 05:19:42 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <786914ac.34d47666 aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:19:32 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: hamdix verisoft.com.tr, ddameron@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re : Re: The "Magnetic Paradox" experiment.... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"hjt8f3.0.ae1.jP7rq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 01/02/1998 13:53:21 , you Hamdi Ucar : << Are these voltages are AC or DC? (DC measurement or AC measurement do you suggest?) This only make sense (a controversial result) if you obtain different *DC* voltages by passing probe cables on different paths. Otherwise any variable magnetic field present around induce different emf on different loops normally. Regards, hamdi ucar >> Hi Hamdi, I have measured AC voltage (V1,V2) between A and B. I have also used twisted pairs of wires for canceling some EM induction along the cables ( see the picture of this in my web site), and the scope cable is coaxial shielded cable. I have presented this experiment with the purpose for demonstrating that some "conventional" reasoning may give some false idea of the reality.... In this experiment the "black box" device alone is not sufficient for proving anything concerning the measures. All experiments must include the lab equipement in the frame reference during the test, and the device tested MUST include also the equipment (probe, cable and scope).....Don't forget that the energy (S-Flow) flows between the source and the load in major part through the space ouside the circuit in EM form..... I let you to conclude yourself about this very educative experiment, :-) Thank you very much for your comments.... Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 08:20:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10040; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:09:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:09:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D49DEF.700B interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:08:15 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Magnetic Paradox" experiment.... References: <9c3a5afa.34d433db aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"numA7.0.nS2.lu9rq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > Hi All, > (snip) > What do you think about the voltages measured ? > Is V1 measured potential the same as V2 or are they different ? > Hi, Jean-Louis. You have set up a very COMPLEX experiment it seems to me and there is not enough information to do a conventional analysis. 1. Such a coil with a soft iron core is a strong near-field transmitter at 50 Hz. 2. Is the core solid, or laminated? If laminated, what are the orientations of the laminations? If the core is solid, the eddy-current paths in the core might be vary complex due to non-uniform grain structure of the soft steel (how it was made - cast, rolled, etc.) If laminated, the insulation between laminations would be important to the details of eddy currents. I would think a good core for this type of experiment would be a random mix of insulated iron wires packed into a machined dielectric tube. Also, the coil should be machine-wound on a precision form for uniformity. 3. You have set up a complex large-field variation and I do not know the precision of the components or their locations. 4. Is the field of the core really axially symmetric or is it slightly "off axis"? Since the near-field varies as 1/r^3 I think this is very important. 5. In an experiment like this, I think you should first MAP the field around the coil to check for uniformity. This mapping should be done with a single, directional probe and would be very time consumming. 6. What is your scope case, your bench top, all other structure near the coil made of? 7. I agree, if the scope input impedance is megohms, it would seem that the resistors of 1 K and 10 K would make no difference. However, are the small areas of the loops formed by the pick-up wires at the coil exactly the same? This would be important if the field is not exactly axially symmetric. In summary, Jean-Louis, it seems to me that I know far too little about your experimental details to do a "conventional" analysis of the results. What do yo think the answer is? And Jean-Louis, if you want to give me a "cyber-space" punch in the nose for being so "picky"(critical) - you may go ahead and do it. Your page is VERY well done! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 10:24:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21867; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <14f44f87.34d4b836 aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:00:19 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: CLEAN ENERGY Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_886356020_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"WonZ03.0.aL5.8eBrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_886356020_boundary Content-ID: <0_886356020 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_886356020_boundary Content-ID: <0_886356020 inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: RVargo1062 aol.com Return-path: To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Subject: CLEAN ENERGY Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:45:20 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Pres. Clinton announced today 6.3B in incentives for clean energy research. Funding present. Check out AOL news headlines. --part0_886356020_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 10:33:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23737; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <3c261490.34d4bd27 aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:21:25 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: More money for energy research Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"lq0Kz3.0.po5.urBrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WASHINGTON (AP) - President Clinton disclosed a five-year, $6.3 billion package of tax incentives and research Saturday to spur development of ultra fuel-efficient automobiles and other energy-saving technologies. Promising to ``mobilize cutting-edge technology in the fight against global warming,'' Clinton said the program will show that the United States can curb heat-trapping greenhouse gases by conserving energy while preserving economic growth. ``Working together we will overcome the challenge of global climate change and create new avenues of growth for our economy,'' Clinton said in highlighting the proposal in his weekly radio address. A cornerstone of the program would give tax credits of $3,000 to $4,000 to buyers of the next generation of fuel-efficient cars to boost development of the vehicles expected to be up to three times as fuel efficient as today's models. Many auto makers have said they plan to have cars in showrooms within seven years that run 50 to 70 miles on a gallon of gasoline. The climate-change package, an early step to comply with the global warming treaty agreed in December in Kyoto, Japan, will be included in Clinton's fiscal 1999 budget to be announced Monday. Both the tax cuts and new spending must be approved by Congress. Some Republicans have greeted the package with skepticism. Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., one of the Kyoto treaty's sharpest critics, said Clinton's proposed incentives should be put on hold until the Senate decides whether to ratify the treaty. He accused the president of trying ``to mold the behavior of U.S. businesses to conform with the global warming ideology.'' The climate treaty, unlikely to come up for Senate ratification this year, specifies that the United States reduce greenhouse emissions - mainly carbon dioxide - to 7 percent below 1990 levels by 2008-2012. Clinton's climate package includes $3.6 billion worth of tax credits and $2.7 billion in additional spending over five years, beginning in 1999, on research related to the prevention of climatic change. ``We want to provide an incentive for the auto industry and the American consumer to produce and purchase the cars of the future,'' said Gene Sperling, the president's chief economic adviser. ``Our goal is to provide an incentive.'' Starting in 2000, a tax credit of $3,000 would apply to vehicles that get double the current mileage for their class. For example a midsize car that now gets 25 miles per gallon would have to achieve 50 mpg to qualify. The credit would be expanded to $4000 by 2004 for vehicles getting three times current models. Auto makers are stepping up development of such cars. A program involving fuel-cell technology is underway by Ford and Daimler-Benz, with an expectation of having 100,000 ultra fuel-efficient cars on the road by 2004. So-called ``hybrid'' electric-fossil fuel-powered vehicles are within a few years of U.S. showrooms, industry executives say. ``We have a goal of developing a midsize car that gets 80 mpg,'' said Energy Secretary Federico Pena. In his radio address, Clinton said he is ``committed to making it not only wiser but actually cheaper to buy highly efficient cars.'' Other key parts of the package would: Provide tax credits of $1,000 to $2,000 to homeowners and businesses that install solar rooftop panels. A 20 percent tax credit for installation of ultraefficient heating and cooling systems and water heaters. A $2,000 credit for purchasing a home that is twice as efficient as the current efficiency standards. The administration also will ask Congress to spend increase spending by almost 60 percent, from $819 million this year to almost $1.3 billion in fiscal 1999, for climate change technologies. Most of that involves research into energy efficiency and renewable energy. ``The funding increases and tax incentives will accelerate the development of innovative technologies, save consumers and businesses billions of dollars and reduce pollution,'' said Howard Geller, executive director of the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. David Nemtzow, director of the private advocacy group Alliance to Save Energy, said he expects the Clinton package will get a favorable reception in Congress despite controversy over the Kyoto treaty. ``It's got bipartisan appeal even among those who are skeptical about the climate treaty. Who can be against giving homeowners lower costs and a tax break.'' AP-NY-02-01-98 0735EST From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 11:35:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00951; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 11:23:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 11:23:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D4CB95.3864 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 14:23:01 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ibmQL3.0.nE.ClCrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, vortexians! This is probably a question I should ask an electronics list about, but I'm not on one. So here goes: I have a vacuum triode based oscillator that supplies about 6000 volts peak-to-peak to a capacitor-diode ladder voltage multiplier. The multiplier works great and puts out a nice 100,000 VDC at several hundred watts (300 - 400 maybe). The oscillator works at about 72 kHz - is a push-pull tank circuit type similar to a tesla coil driver. The oscillator is made from junk-box parts and weighs a "ton". I would like to make a nice compact solid-state, 6000 PTP volt, 50 to 70 kHz driver for the multiplier. I have on hand some large fly-back type ferite cores, several pie-wound rf choke coils that I can fit over the core for a secondary winding - I think I have the transformer in hand. My thing is, I have about 40 darlington transistors, 2N6386, I GOT FREE! These darlingtons have NO internal diodes from emitter-to-collector. If I use a 28 VDC power supply, each darlington can probably switch about 5 amps (I'm not sure I could get away with 28 volts!) Roughly speaking (that's the way an ME does electronics!) my power supply load would need to be about 20 amps to represent, say, 560 watts into the transformer. I thought I could parallel maybe 4 to 6 darlingtons on each side of a push-pull fly-back type oscillator. I would like to stay above 50 kHz to keep the impedance of the ladder capacitors low. Bottom line - how do you parallel darlingtons in such a circuit driving a push-pull inductive load. Would I just series a small stabilizing resistor with each units collector? -- or, would I need some diodes somewhere with each unit? Lost in electronic detail land, ------ Frank Stenger PS: Any good web sites on such things? Many thanks in advance! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 12:25:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23866; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:09:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:09:31 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:05:21 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: BLP Run 9 Guessing Game Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802011508_MC2-3171-FAFE compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"4lBJg2.0.kq5.vPDrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little write: First, we would love to have BLP's cooperation and assistance. We have asked them several times in writing for cooperation and there has never been any response. Oh, dear. I am sorry to hear that, although not surprised. First thing next week I intend to print out all our BLP run reports and include them in a letter to Mills asking again for help and offering our cooperation and support for development of his technology. That sounds like a good idea. It will demonstrate sincerity and competence. Good! (By the way, don't mention my name and don't tell them I think it is a good idea. I suppose my recommendation would be the kiss of death.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 13:17:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03525; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:07:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:07:31 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34D4CB95.3864 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION Resent-Message-ID: <"PTsb_1.0._s.HGErq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank - > I have on hand some large fly-back type > ferite cores, several pie-wound rf choke > coils that I can fit over the core for a > secondary winding - I think I have the > transformer in hand. I made one of those from one of the "Information Unlimited" books. Uses a 12v power circuit. The feedback to two 2N3055's was from just a few wraps of wire around the primary of the flyback. The 3055's kept burning out though, so I went to some other T0-3 cased transistor from RadioShack - MJ2955 I think. They didn't burn out with 4 to 6 stage ladders. I was going for the 100kV output with a 12 stage ladder in an oil filled tube, but the thing's now in my "finish this someday" pile. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 14:02:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20556; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:53:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:53:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:46:24 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION In-Reply-To: <34D4CB95.3864 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"gf2J_.0.015.gxErq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank, Just start out with neon sign transformer ... and if you need more boot use oil burner transformer... one of the old heavy ones. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 16:39:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11669; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:33:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:33:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:32:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Comb Demo: Phase & Group Velocity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"02mez2.0.Bs2.4HHrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: From: Physics Demonstration Experiments Harry F Meiners ,(c)1970 , Ronald Press Experiment # 18-8.9 pp 480-481 The difference between phase velocity and group velocity can be demonstrated with two combs having slightly different tooth spacing. The demonstration is most effective if the width of a tooth is nearly equal to the width of the spacing between the teeth. If the tooth is considered to be the maximum in some kind in some type of traveling wave and the adjoining space is considered to be the minimum, then the speed at which the comb is displaced in a direction perpendicular to the teeth can be considered to be the phase velocity or wavefront velocity. When the two combs are superimposed on the stage of an overhead projector, light and dark sections are seen where the teeth overlap. The light sections correspond to regions of constructive interference and the dark sections correspond to regions of destructive interference. When both combs are moved at the same velocity, the phase and group velocities are equal and the dark regions do not move with respect to the combs. If the comb having the longer "wavelength" is moved faster than the other one , the wave groups move backward with respect to the combs, but with a speed slower than their forward motion, hence , the group velocity is less than the phase velocity. If the comb having the shorter wavelength is moved faster than the other one , the wave groups move forward and thus the group velocity is greater than the phase velocity. It is helpful to use combs of different colors (in this demo). +++ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 17:40:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05572; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:34:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:34:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:28:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The "Magnetic Paradox" experiment.... In-Reply-To: <34D49DEF.700B interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"jq1xz3.0.jM1.LAIrq" mx1> To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Is the coil electrically connected? Is it open...? Shorted to itself? A little detail on the impedance of the source would help. Nice page.... But then I have always thought that. JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 18:26:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10453; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:08:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: <34D51CDA.4E43 earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:09:46 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, sevior@kosal0.triumf.ca, ell lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, gravitics1@aol.com, sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion transmutation.com, aki.@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, mconnolly grainsystems.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst loc1.tandem.com, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: ICCF-7: >135 Accepted Abstracts References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Tkyeo.0.EZ2.TgIrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 1, 1998 [Comments by Rich Murray: This is an impressively long list of over 135 abstracts, with many contributors unknown to me, surely a rather vigorous expression for an "undead" field (to use Bart Simon's memorable term). It is noteworthy that the famed Cincinatti Group transmutation claims, presented at the November conference in Asti, Italy, are not in sight, nor the Ragland triode cell, nor any reports from the BlackLight Power camp. Of the 24 abstracts selected for oral presentation, I myself have posted detailed, challenging critiques of recent reports by Miley, Ohmori, Swartz, and Dash. Not much will come of ICCF-7, in terms of acceptance by the wider scientific community, unless there is present replication of a specific heat, radiation, and/or transmutation anomaly. Scott Little and Hal Puthoff of EarthTech [little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com] will competently undertake this, paid out of their own pocket, with access to extensive funding upon confirming success. Those accepted speakers who are confident of their experimental protocols, such as Swartz, Storms, Iwamura, Dash, Cain, McKubre, Stringham, Claytor, Ohmori, Oriani, and Karabut should seriously consider taking this opportunity to be the first to be publicly and quickly replicated, instantly resurrecting the field from "undead" to alive sharable cooperative scientific process. The field additionally needs active, vigorous, speedy, specific critical appraisal. Those experimenters who are aware of this need might do well to quickly post their reports as soon as possible on Vortex-L or their web sites or ICCF-7 web site, and invite critical appraisal, publicly posted, publicly answered. How else do science? "Infinite Energy" and "Cold Fusion Times" would greatly expedite this essential progress by publishing these critical dialogues. Questions: Forsley-- testing Cincinatti Group or CETI cells? Kim-- building on Scott Chubb's band state fusion theory? Longchampt-- testing CETI type beads? Ueda-- testing Arata experiment?] http://www.ICCF-7.org/ January 27, 1998 Greetings: Final plans for ICCF-7 [Vancouver, April 19-24] are rapidly taking shape and there are many new and interesting papers to be presented. The Local Organizing Committee, under the direction of Professor George Miley, has completed its evaluation of over 135 abstracts, and has selected 24 papers for oral presentation per the enclosed list. Authors and titles of all accepted abstracts are posted on the conference website at http://www.ICCF-7.org. The ICCF-7 audience will directly select an additional "Top Ten" posters for oral presentations in Vancouver. ACCEPTED ABSTRACTS IMPORTANT DATES September 26, 1997 -- Official call for one page abstracts. November 1, 1997 -- Deadline for submission of abstracts and registration for presenters. January 1, 1998 -- Registration fees increase to $500. January 15, 1998 -- Official notification for oral or poster status. Apri1 19, 1998 -- Deadline for submission of final papers for inclusion in the published ICCF-7 Proceedings (to be distributed summer of '98). April 19-24, 1998 -- ICCF-7 conference in Vancouver, Canada. ACCEPTED ABSTRACTS FOR ICCF-7 AUTHOR TITLE Akbar Iron from Carbon and Oxygen Under Electro-Discharge Andermann Nuclear Electron Capture & Entrapment As Precursors for Nuclear Transformation Events with deuterated Metals Andermann Rationalization of Cold Fusion Transmutations Via Thermal Absorption of Complex Neutron Aggregates Andermann Unified Theory for Cold Fusion Phenomena Andermann Excess Heat in Cold Fusion Via Dineutron Models Asami On the Material Behavior of Highly Deuterated Palladium Barashenkov A New Strategy of Electronuclear Technology Bazhutov Influence of Spin & Parity Preservation Laws on Erzion Model Predictions in Cold Fusion Experiment Bazhutov Neutron Generation at Ultrasonic Cavitation of Some Liquids Bertolotti Nondestructive Evaluation of The Thermal Properties of Palladium-Hydrogen Compounds by Photothermal Techniques Biberian Excess Heat in Solid State Electrolytes Botta Correlated Measurements of D2 Loading and 4He Production in Pd Lattice Bush, B Methods of Generating Excess Heat with the Pons and Fleischmann Effect Bush, R Consequences of Lattice Occupational Symmetry for Cold Fusion Bush, R. Cold Fusion/Cold Fission Reactions to Explain Mizuno's Electrolytic Experiment Employing a PD Cathode and PT Anode Cain Electrical Resistance & Morphology of Palladium Thin-Films during Hydrogen Loading Cain Thermal Power Produced Using Thin-Film Palladium Cathodes in a Concentrated Lithium Salt Electrolyte Celani The Effect of -ƒ Phases Interface on H (D) /Pd Overloading Chen Observations of Cell Temperature Drops and High Vapor Temperatures in D2O Chernov Nuclear Reactions in Layer Structures at Deuterium Charge Chernov Change of Isotopic Composition of Metals at Deuterium Charge Chicea About Deuterium Nuclear Reaction Rate in Condensed Matter Chicea The Role of the Energy Fluctuations in the Possibility of Nuclear Reactions in Condensed Matter Chubb, S Periodic Order, Symmetry, and Coherence in Cold Fusion Chubb, S Really Cold, Cold Fusion Chubb, T Deuteride Induced Strong Force Claytor In-Situ Measurement of Tritium Concentration Variations During Plasma Excitation of Deuterium Loaded Palladium and Palladium Alloys Collis ENSAP- A Software Tool to Analyze Nuclear Reactions Dalun X-Ray in Glow Discharge De Ninno Material Science Studies Aimed to The Excess Heat Experiments Reproducibility Improvement De Ninno Cold Fusion at Enea Frascati: Progress Report Dominguez Dynamics of Pd-D(H) Phase Formation Monitored Using Synchrotron-Wiggler Radiation Dufour Formation & Properties of HYDREX and DEUTEX Filimonov Self-Organization Processes Under Metals Loading by Hydrogen Isotopes - Materials Science Basis for Cold Fusion and Transmutation Technologies Filimonov Nuclear Transmutation & Scalar Fields Generation Under Chemical Detonation of Solids Filimonov Dynamical Model of the Synergetic Activation for Cold Fusion and The Novel concept for the Free Energy "Generation" Fisher Liquid Drop Model for Extremely Neutron-rich Nuclei Fisher The Role of Polyneutrons in Cold Nuclear Reactions Fleischmann Cold Fusion: Past, Present, & Future Forsley Analyzing Nuclear Ash from the Electrocatalytic Reduction of Radioactivity in Uranium and Thorium Fox High-Density Charge Cluster Gruber Economic Effects of Space Energy Technologies (SET) on Individuals and Society Gruber Economic Effects of NEW Energy Technologies (NET) Hagelstein Models for Anomalous Energy Transfer Hagelstein A Search for V-D Anomolies Hora Nuclear Shall Magic Numbers Agree With Measured Transmutation By Low-Energy Reactions Hrashovetz Integer-Linked Elementary Particle Charges and the Theoretical role of Neutrino Oscillation I Nucleon- Loaded Metal, Anomalies Isobe Simultaneous Measurements of Neutrons, X-rays, Excess Heat and Loading Ratio Using Opened D2O electrolysis System Iwamura Detection of Anomalous Elements, X-ray and Excess Heat Induced By Continuous Diffusion of Deuterium Through Multi-layer Cathode (Pd/CaO/Pd) Jiang Electrochemical Noise, Pitting Corrosion, And Cold Fusion Jiang Tip-Effect and Nuclear-Active Site Jiang Anomalous Element Production Induced By Carbon Arcing Under Water Jiang Anomalous of Elemental Distribution At The Surface Of Palladium Cathode Kamada Anomalous Heat Generation of Deuteron-Implanted Aluminum Upon Electron Bombardment II Karabut Excess heat Registration (Up to 200 W) in D2 and H2 High Current Density Glow discharge with Various Cathode Materials Karabut Registration of Impurity Elements Production with Changed Isotopes and Natural Ratio in Current Density Glow Discharge Karabut Research of Penetrating Radiation in Current Density Glow Discharge Kim Bose-Einstein Condensation Mechanism for Anomalous Ultra-Low Energy Nuclear Reaction in a Condensed Matter Kim Role of Continuum Electrons in Ultra-Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Klopfensten Thermal Imaging During Electrolysis of Heavy Water with a Ti Cathode Komaki The Observations on the Non-Radioactive Biological Cold Fusion, Using Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Kozima The TNCF Model for the Cold Fusion Phenomenon Li New Measurement of Excess Heat In A Gas-Loading D/PD System Li Selective Resonant Tunneling Model For Low-Energy Induced Nuclear Reaction In solids Lipson Nuclear Emissions in Au/Pd/PdO:D(x) System Induced By Exothermic Deuterium Desorption Lipson Change in Thermal Neutron Cross - Section For Pd And Cu - Cathodes During the Electrolysis Under Irradiation By A Weak Thermal Neutron Flux Lonchampt Excess Heat in Palladium Cathodes at Boiling Lonchampt Excess Heat and Nuclear Ashes in Nickel Palladium Beads Lu Some Problems in Solar Physics And Astrophysics Lu Where does the Excess Heat Come From In The "Cold Fusion" Experiment? Mallove Hydro-Nuclear Reactions and Electro-Alchemy Mastromatteo Nickel Submicron Thick Layers Heated Over Curie Temperature Show High Temperature Spots If Exposed To Hydrogen Atmosphere Matsui Excess Heat Measurements and Nuclear Detection Experiments in the NHE Program Matsumoto Mechanisms of Electro-Nuclear Collapse Matsumoto Carbon Tubes and Films Produced In A Pb Electrode Matsumoto Feasible Schemes of Electro-Nuclear Transmutation In Compressed Hydrogen Clusters McKubre Materials Issues of Loading Deuterium into Palladium, and the Association with Excess Heat Production Miles Radiation Measurements at China Lake Miley Energetics of Nuclear Transmutations During Thin-Film Electrolysis Miley Quantification of Isotopes Using Combined Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry and Neutron Activation Analysis Mo The Confirmation of Nuclear Transmutation Phenomenon In A Gas-Loading H/PD System Using NAA(Neutron Activation Analysis) Monti Nuclear Transmutation Processes of Lead, Silver, Thorium, Uranium Notoya Products of Nuclear Processes Caused by Electrolysis on Nickel and Platinum Electrodes in Solutions of Alkali-Metallic Ions Ochiai Measurement of High-Energetic Particles from Titanium Sheet Implanted with Deuteron Beam Ohmori Observation of the Product Elements of Nuclear Transmutation Reaction on/in Several Metal Electrodes by the Cathodic Electrolysis in Light Water Solutions Okamoto Material Conditions to Replicate the Generation of Excess Energy and the Emission of Excess Neutrons Oriani Anomalous Heavy Atomic Masses Produced by Electrolysis Ota Heat Measurement During the Heavy Water Electrolysis Using Pd Cathode Oya A Role of Alkaline Ions for Dynamic Movement of Hydrogen Isotopes in PD Passell Search for Nuclear Reaction Products in Heat Producing Palladium Qiao Nuclear Products in a Gas-Loading D/PD And H/PD System Qingfu The Crystal Structure Transition of Ti-cathode Owing To The Electrolysis in Water Qingquan Cold Fusion Mechanism & Cold Fusion Materials Romodanov High-Temperature Nuclear Reactions In Condensed Media Romodanov Tritium Generation in Metal By Thermal Activation Romodanov Nuclear Reactions in Condensed Media and X-Ray Rotegard The Case for "New Energy" Technology Roussetski Observation of (DD)-Fusion Reaction Products In Electrolytically Deuterized PDO-PD-Structures Samgin An Explanation for Positive and Negative Results Concerning Anomalous Effects in Superionic Crystals Sanchez Neutron Emissions From the Titanium-Deuterium System Savvatimova The Heat Effect Comparative Analysis in Ion Irradiated Various Cathode Materials Glow Discharge Savvatimova Transmutation Effects on Glow Discharge Cathode. Nuclear Phenomena Or Ion Irradiation Results? Silver Surface Studies of Palladium Sioda Hot-Spot Mechanism of Hypothetic "Cold Fusion" Phenomena Stoppini Nuclear Processes in Hydrogen Loaded Metals Storms Use of Loading Efficiency, D/PD Limit, Deloading Rate, and Excess volume to Judge the Value of Palladium for Use in cold Fusion Studies Storms Relationship Between Open-Circuit-Voltage and Heat Production in a Pons-Fleischmann Cell Stringham Cavitation in D20 w/Metal Targets Produces Predictable Excess Heat Sugiura Calorimetric Analyses of the Excess Heat Generated From Pd:D And Pd:H By The 'In-Vacuo' Method Swartz Comparative Notch [Optimal Operating Point] Characteristics of Solid State Nuclear Systems Swartz Vacancy-Phase Nickel Cathodes Swartz Metanalysis of the Cold Fusion Literature Tadahiko Measurements of Transmutation Elements on Several Metals by Strong Cathodic Electrolysis in Heavy Water Solution Takahashi, A Results of Experimental Studies on Excess Heat vs. Nuclear Products Correlation and Conceivable Reaction Model Takahashi, R Excess Heat Caused by Electrolysis For Drilled Charcoal Cathode And Heat Without Power Input By Immersion Of charcoal In Heavy Or Light Water At Elevated Temperatures Takahashi, R Proposal of Microdrop-In-Bubble Model For Cold Fusion And Related Phenomena Tanzella Methods for Observing Anomalous energy Transfer in Solids Tsvetkov Thermal Effects at the Titanium Anode in Molten (LiCI-KCI) + LiD Mixtures During Electrolysis Tsvetkov Experimental Data for Initiation of Cold Fusion By Oxygen Tsvetkov Necessary Conditions of Cold Fusion Ueda Study of Excess Heat and Nuclear Products with Closed Electrolysis System and Quadrupole Mass Spectrometer Vigier Interpretation of "Cold Fusion" in terms of New Bohr Orbits resulting from Spin-Spin and Spin-Orbit Couplings in External Magnetic Fields. Theorectical and Experimental Evidence. Violante Extended Analysis of the Lattice Ion Trap As Possible Collision Mechanism Between Nucleous In Condensed Matter Waisman Practical Application of X-Heat Wang Nuclear and Atomic Cluster Effect of Deuterium Molecular Ions (D3) Implanted Into Palladium Wang Study of Possible Indirect Fusion Reaction In Solids Wang Anomalous Radiation Induced By 1-100 Kev Deuteron Ion Beam Implantation On Palladium Yabuuchi Low-Temperature Nuclear Fusion Outside of Solids Yamaguchi Progress Report on the Study Of Excess Heat and Nuclear Products by the 'In-Vacuo' Method Run at IMRA Europe Zhang, W Kinetics of Pd/H Electrode. Zhang, W Irreproducibility Problem in Cold Fusion --- A Point of View of Material Science Zhang, Z A Right Calorimetric System Needed In the Studying Electrolysis System In The "Cold Fusion" Field Zhang, Z Examination of the "Excess Heat" Generated During Electrolysis of D2O And H2O on a New Type Calorimetric System ICCF-7 Secretariat c/o ENECO 391-B Chipeta Way Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 USA Last Updated 01/28/98 For information about this website contact: jaeger eneco-usa.com ICCF-7 c/o ENECO, 391-B Chipeta Way Salt Lake City, Utah 84108 USA Phone (801) 583-2000 - Fax (801) 583-6245 Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 19:08:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29296; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:56:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:56:50 -0800 (PST) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:09:24 -0800 Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION Message-ID: <19980201.183551.11070.5.tv juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-12,16-17,20-21,25-30 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"NX6Vw2.0.e97.kNJrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I made one of those from one of the "Information Unlimited" books. Uses a >12v power circuit. The feedback to two 2N3055's was from just a few wraps >of wire around the primary of the flyback. The 3055's kept burning out >though, so I went to some other T0-3 cased transistor from RadioShack - >MJ2955 I think. They didn't burn out with 4 to 6 stage ladders. >I was going for the 100kV output with a 12 stage ladder in an oil filled >tube, but the thing's now in my "finish this someday" pile. Hey Rick, I built the the same "Information Unlimited" high voltage power supply with 12 stage multiplier. It worked great until the 3055 transistors burned out. The 3055 circuit is a a self oscillating design. It puts too much stress on the transistor. I was just fishing it out of the garage today. I am going to try a mosfet driver run by 555 oscillator circuit. Should be easier to control and more stable. When the thing was running it shure put out the static. A Weller soldering station about 2 feet away "blew up" in a rather spectacular way when the neon light became a dead short across the 115 volts. The rocker switch that housed the neon light was a melted blob. Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 21:20:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14908; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:11:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:11:57 -0800 Message-ID: <34D54BB2.2D0D interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:29:38 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wyl0H2.0.qe3.RMLrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > I made one of those from one of the "Information Unlimited" books. I have the same book, Rick - it's really full of great tips and projects! Uses a > 12v power circuit. The feedback to two 2N3055's was from just a few wraps > of wire around the primary of the flyback. The 3055's kept burning out > though, so I went to some other T0-3 cased transistor from RadioShack - > MJ2955 I think. They didn't burn out with 4 to 6 stage ladders. > > I was going for the 100kV output with a 12 stage ladder in an oil filled > tube, but the thing's now in my "finish this someday" pile. I have a 20 stage multiplier I built inside a 6 inch dia. PVC pipe. on the outside of the pipe in 12 kv steps I put a band of aluminum for an equi-potential ring. I can take the power off the multiplier in 12 kv increments up to about 100 kv open circuit. I used one of my sweet wife's stainless mixing bouls for the top cap. The triode driver oscillator uses 6 world war II ventage signal core triodes in a push-pull circuit. The multiplier will deliver about 6 milliamps at 80,000 volts thru a 15 meg ohm power resistor limiter. The multiplier weighs about 3 pounds but the triode driver and associated junk weigh about 200 lbs. That's the incentive for the solid-state driver. I do have two 2N3055's but I hoped to tap into this 40 unit inventory of free darlingtons if it makes sense to do so. The unit as is works great, but it could have served as an anchor for Titanic. Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 21:21:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17843; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:13:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:13:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D5527F.234 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:58:39 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YKl792.0.jM4.aNLrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > > Just start out with neon sign transformer ... and if you need > more boot use oil burner transformer... one of the old heavy ones. > I got you, John. But 6 kv, 60 hz transformer sees too much impedance in the ladder's long series string of about 20, 0.0022 MFD capacitors. At the present 72 kHz feed, the rf power runs up the ladder like the devil. I figured I could get pretty good results if I can get 50 kHz or so feed frequency. It's just that I would like to shrink the driver oscillator as much as I can so I can mount the setup in a hand-carryable package. Also, the present air core transformer is wound on a 5-gallon plastic bucket - very open and unshielded - I figure I'm broadcasting 72 kHz ELF waves all over the neighborhood when I turn it on! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 1 23:17:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27356; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:00:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:00:34 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <71294f60.34d56e6f aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 01:57:49 EST To: herman antioch-college.edu, ce3cwf@cmet.net, antigrav@ihug.co.nz, ddameron earthlink.net, fstenger@interlaced.net, natanael@swipnet.se, hamdix verisoft.com.tr, little@eden.com, VCockeram@aol.com, mrandall earthlink.net, segeorge@gte.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: The "Magnetic Paradox", the most "probable" explanation.... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"XoqQ51.0.Mh6.GyMrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 02/02/1998 03:39:56 , herman antioch-college.edu a wrote: << Is the coil electrically connected? Is it open...? Shorted to itself? A little detail on the impedance of the source would help. >> Dear John and ALL, In my latest setup I have connected the coil directly to the grid line power 220V/50Hz, In this experiment the coil impedance has no importance and it is used only for generating a variable B-Field. The most important thing is the impedance of the voltmeter connected, I have used an oscilloscope with high impedance probes (10Mohms/11pF) and twisted pairs of wires. In this very "instructive" experiment, the interesting thing is the frame reference used by the experimenter. The lab equipment, also the oscilloscope/voltmeter cables must be included in the "black box" reference and not kept outside the system reference. So, by this way, if you include the left and right frame created by the probes connections you will see a totaly different circuit..... The left wired frame and the right wired frame are completly different. One has the coil outside the closed surface, and the other has the coil inside the closed surface, thus the resulting flux induced is different.... :-) Many of us has already found this explanation which seems the most probable answer (today....) to this paradox. The thinking is always open, lets me know if you have more ideas about this and all suggestions are welcome. Thank you very much to all of you for your "active" help about this experiment, I am always glad to share with you the feed back of my experiments..... Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin (France) 02/02/98 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 02:49:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11540; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:43:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:43:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D5A1D9.653B skylink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 02:37:13 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The "Magnetic Paradox", the most "probable" explanation.... References: <71294f60.34d56e6f aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7rZ7Q2.0.Cq2.fDQrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > In this very "instructive" experiment, the interesting thing is the frame > reference used by the experimenter. Jean. You have used twisted-pair wiring, and presumably located the measuring instrument fairly far away from the field of the coil. Hence there should be no effect from induced voltages in the measuring loop. Also, the argument that the coil itself is in the measuring circuit when the measurement is made from one side, and not in the loop when measured from the other side is not geometrically satisfied. I think that the apparent paradox results from our tendency to to want to view a copper wire conductor as an equipotential surface -- a valid model in most circuit theory and in static electrodyanmics, but not valid in this problem. The emf is induced, and therefore the potential is multi-valued -- continually increasing around the loop. The current is of course identical at all points around the loop. For purposes of example, let us say that there is 11 volts emf induced around the entire loop. You will find the voltage on the 10K resistor to be 10 times the voltage on the 1K resistor -- in our example 10 volts compared with 1 volt. The voltage on the 1K resistor will be opposite in phase compared with the voltage on the 10K resistor (with the scope probe attached to the "top" of each respective resistor). If you could somehow properly measure the emf on the wire loop, and if the length of each resistor was neglible compared with the length of the wire loop, you would also find approximately a 5.5 volt difference on the wire between each of the resistors. You are not able to see this voltage because you must split your wire-pair probe lead apart to make the connection across the circuit. From the point of view of your measuring instrument, the voltage induced on the split out parts of the wire-pair probe exactly cancels the voltage induced in the coil wire. The induced voltage on the wire between, and across each resistor can also be viewed as caused by surface charges which are built up on the resistors. A good article discussing this is: Surface Charges on Circuit Wires and Resistors Play Three Roles, J.D. Jackson, American Journal of Physics, Vol 64 No 7, page 855. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 04:28:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA32590; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:25:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:25:39 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:20:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd2fd5$00bbf760$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pJ2Ad.0.8z7.2jRrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 10:22 PM Subject: Re: (Off topic) ELECTRONICS QUESTION Frank Stenger wrote: >Also, the present air core transformer is wound on a 5-gallon >plastic bucket - very open and unshielded - I figure I'm broadcasting >72 kHz ELF waves all over the neighborhood when I turn it on! Five gallons,sounds about right for capacitance. The 72 kHz ELF should rouse every Ground-Hog in Northeastern Ohio this morning. If you have a good Ground. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Frank S. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 04:38:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16278; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:36:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:36:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:33:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Cheap experiment to show 2nd law wanting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xdTjd.0.G-3.rsRrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, It's been a long time messing about trying to find something that would yield an easy robust experiment. Remember, I'm trying to form vesicles with a hygroscopic substance inside in gel or true solution form. In essence, the approach is this: imagine you have a hygroscopic substance and you place it in a humid environment, it takes up water diluting itself until the vapour pressure of the solution is equal to the atmosphere surrounding it. If you were to put the hygro. subs. in a rigid walled enclosing vessel permeable to water and water vapour, water vapour could ingress but the hygro. sub could never dilute; further, because the solution is very incompressible, a pressure must build up which pushes the condensed water out. In short, the vessel contents would remain hygroscopic; not even the osmotic pressure from water ingress into it (the hygro. subs is some kind of salt) would raise the vapour pressure as the vp of a soln changes very little with pressure applied to it. All the analysis of these vesicles has been carried out, and it's quite simple leading to the paradox: 1) The weighted vapour pressure of the vesicles plus the water surrounding them must equal the vapour pressure of the atmosphere above the suspension, so a 'free water volume'. This presents a problem for the second law: the device acts as a 'phase changing catalyst', so spontaneous temp. rise on condensation of water and potential energy from the density change if water condensed at height. Or 2) The hygroscopic vesicles just sit there with a lowered vapour pressure in an atmosphere with a higher vapour pressure violating the law of stable equilibrium which (2nd law again). In other words: if it works, it violates the 2nd law; if it doesn't work it violates the second law. Now about the experiment and some background:- Lots of time wasted trying to form vesicles with phospholipid bilayer vesicles. Got background to PL structures; very labile and more tailored to other uses. PL approach could work but requires a lot of research in crosslinking the wall material to withstand the osmotic pressures. Costs for this too high. New approach: glass vesicles or 'cenospheres' and sodium salt of polyacrylic acid. All materials dirt cheap. You can get the glass vesicles from the PQ corporation where they are marketted as 'Extendospheres' used typically as fillers. They give huge amounts of free samples. Etch them with sodium hydroxide so they become porous. Wash them. Let ZInc acrylate solution, propargyl alcohol (to act as crosslinker to form gel) and a little methyl blue (polymerisation initiator) diffuse in. Collect the vesicles from the reagent mix and suspend them in paraffin oil, this is so that when polymerisation occurs, one mass of gel and vesicles won't be formed. Now the polymerisation step to form the hygroscopic gel inside the vesicles. Shine light. Wash in Sodium hydroxide to form Na salt of polyacrylic acid which is very hygroscopic. All the details of quantities and times will be worked out but that is the method I shall use. I'm expecting results in a few weeks. Sorry if you haven't been following this thread and you're probably confused as to what I'm up to, I shall prepare a paper (I hate writing and preparing web pages, sorry). Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 08:30:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11231; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:20:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:20:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34D5E39A.4B46 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:21:23 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, sevior@kosal0.triumf.ca, ell lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, gravitics1@aol.com, sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion transmutation.com, aki.@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, mconnolly grainsystems.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst loc1.tandem.com, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Rothwell: an error in ICCF-7: >135 Accepted Abstracts References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mTamI.0.Ol2.E9Vrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: ERROR in ICCF-7: Accepted Abstracts Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:44:40 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net; >INTERNET:jaeger@eneco-usa.com This item: Tadahiko Measurements of Transmutation Elements on Several Metals by Strong Cathodic Electrolysis in Heavy Water Solution . . . should be listed under: Mizuno Tadahiko is his first name. I presume this is Mizuno; I do not know any other Japanese CF scientists by that name. Tadahiko is definitely a first name only. Mizuno is submitting another abstract: Neutron and Heat Generation Induced Electric Discharge I am correcting the English in it this morning. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 09:45:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA30403; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:40:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:40:04 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980202114029.00ab0470 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 11:40:29 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: new BLP info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ReswE3.0.tQ7.oJWrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: BLP fans should look at Section III of the "New Fractional Quantum Energy Levels of Hydrogen" that appears in the "Experiments and Validations" section of the BLP web page (www.blacklightpower.com). It contains a much more detailed description of the experiment we are trying to replicate. Some key facts I have gleaned from it: 1. They are using KNO2 potassium nitrite....not KNO3. I thought this was a typo in the original description but there's no question about it now. 2. Their tungsten filament is huge: 200 cm long 0.1mm diameter. This would have a cold resistance of about 13 ohms and would weigh about .3 grams. My auto brake lamp filaments are 0.46 ohms and weigh maybe 0.01 grams. 3. They do not flow hydrogen thru the cell. "The cell was operated in a static condition, all valves were closed once 2000 millitorr hydrogen was established." 4. They use a thermocouple gauge to measure the H pressure. I wonder if they know that a scale reading of 2000 millitorr corresponds to a H2 pressure significantly lower (about half) than that due to H's higher thermal conductivity? 5. I do not see the value of the performance graphs they present. They show only the temperature variations in the nominally isothermal cell as a function of time. There is no graph of Pout and Pin vs time. 6. With a more detailed description of the apparatus, I continue to be concerned over their calorimetry. They judge the experiment to be producing excess heat only because it takes less filament power to keep the temp sensor at 280C than cartridge heater power. As Dushman says, "at temperatures above 2000K, this dissociation of the gas in contact with the filament causes the absorption of a very large quantity of heat. The atomic hydrogen produced diffuses out and recombines at the walls to form molecules with the liberation of heat". The drawings show the temperature sensor to be located near the filament thus it would be a prime site for this hydrogen recombination. Of course, this is just speculation. However, I would feel much better about their excess heat results if they had the whole experiment surrounded by a heat-flux sensing calorimeter. BTW, I have made a new attempt at contacting BlackLight Power for assistance. Through John Farrell (one of Mills' professors who keeps up with his activities) I have learned of Bill Good at BLP. Bill apparently is their primary experimentalist. I have emailed him with an appeal for assistance in our replication effort. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 11:04:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10871; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:52:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:52:22 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34CE7031.191A interlaced.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:51:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: negative viscosity Resent-Message-ID: <"gp01Z2.0.mf2.aNXrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There were lots of good perceptive questions about negative viscosity. I hope that I got them all here. If not please let me know. Franscis Stenger writes: >Gee, Larry, before you stick your NASA neck out too far, isn't there >some benchtop way to confirm your theory? How about some kind of trick >with the old ball-suspended-in-the-exhaust-of-a-shopvac-effect? Is >that flow "higher order turbulance" enough to show the effect? If not, >any simple ideas? If the second law is a mathematical-statistical >sort of thing, does your theory just show that the statistics break >down for certain turbulant flows? There is no problem with sticking my neck out. If the management does not approve of my theory then permission to publish will be denied. We have highly competent people in the relevant field here who would do an internal review and there probably would not be a problem with getting a fair and valid internal review. Universities are different. There investigators usually do not need to get management approval to submit a paper for publication. Then the problems come after the publication of a theory which is thought to be bogus by the management. At NASA the problems only come if you publish without getting permission and then usually only if the work is thought to be bogus. There was a person working for NASA who had a theory like that of Lou Frank with the small comets. He was put on as a coauthor on a paper about it without approval for publication and as a result he was shown the way to early retirement. A test would be good. For turbulent flow, which should work just as well as the molecular transport case, a good test would be the establishing of a stable vortex structure. However, turbulent transport would not give any free energy and a mixture of hot and cold air would be required to provide the energy to the vortex structure. For molecular transport there is a possibility of free energy and two tests here would be a gas centrifuge with velocity shear and a "cold fusion" cell with flowing electrolyte. In both cases there would be a large force in the presence of a velocity shear. William J. Beaty writes: >Or maybe something involving a centrifuge? You could generate an "L-5 >colony" radial pressure gradient, with near-vacuum in the center. >Any suspicion that the Ranke/Hilsch tube harnesses negative viscosity >effects? Yes a centrifuge would be an important test device. The Ranke/Hilsch tube could harness negative viscosity. But it would just be used to spin up the gas near the center of the tube. There would be no free energy produced. Robin van Spaandonk writes: >So how about an evacuated box, with one wall replaced by a cylinder >free to rotate, that formed an airtight seal with the walls of the >box? (Then connect the cylinder shaft to a generator). >Isn't the implication just that the second law is broken, not the >first? (I.e. the energy is derived from the kinetic energy of the molecules, >which presumably results in a lowering of temperature if you make the >boundaries of your "system" large enough.) A rotating cylinder would be fine for testing but the energy produced would be too small. Only a cf cell could give a useable amount of free energy. No energy would be created so the second law but not first law is broken. Of course a cf cell that is acting as a heat pump would have some parts that are cold if enough heat is extracted from the hot part. We have heard many rantings here from Jed Rothwell that this cold part has never been observed and therefore my theory is wrong. My view is that the cold part has now been well observed but just not reported. Robert Flower writes: >_Negative_ viscosity would be the reverse of this. In other words, >negative viscosity would mean a flow of energy _from_ the random >thermal motion of molecules into larger and larger eddy-currents and >vortices, ultimately ending up as macroscopic fluid motion that would >"push along" a solid object immersed in the flow. Negative viscosity >would thus be a source of energy and a sink of entropy. In other >words, negative viscosity would be able to convert heat into >mechanical motion. Negative viscosity could convert heat into machanical motion to the violation of the second law but only through molecular transport. For turbulant transport the entropy production is always positive at all points in space and time and nothing can reverse the "cascading down" into smaller and smaller eddy-currents and vortices, ultimately ending up, at the molecular scale, as _heat_. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 11:19:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15097; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:08:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:08:14 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: <6e88252e.34d6198e aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:07:56 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: New design, this might work! LaFonte home page Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Resent-Message-ID: <"pKejP3.0.hh3.RcXrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, Please take a look at my new design and tell me what you think. This might work! Thanks, Butch LaFonte http://members.aol.com/HLafonte/LaFonteGenerator4.html LaFonte Generator Home Page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 12:29:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24933; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:20:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:20:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:18:41 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199802022018.MAA10502 slave1.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: negative viscosity Resent-Message-ID: <"z4nOf2.0.V56.rfYrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Larry, Have you looked at the Schlieren (sp?)photography angle for a good visualiztion of flows? -Knuke >There were lots of good perceptive questions about negative viscosity. I >hope that I got them all here. If not please let me know. >Negative viscosity could convert heat into machanical motion to the >violation of the second law but only through molecular transport. For >turbulant transport the entropy production is always positive at all points >in space and time and nothing can reverse the "cascading down" into >smaller and smaller eddy-currents and vortices, ultimately ending up, at >the molecular scale, as _heat_. > > > >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 12:30:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07798; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:10:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:10:37 -0800 From: "Paul Brown" To: Subject: Re: new BLP info Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:09:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3016$8630c9c0$8ca89bcf isonix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"E1ySZ3.0.kv1.yWYrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 12:32 PM Subject: new BLP info >2. Their tungsten filament is huge: 200 cm long 0.1mm diameter. This >would have a cold resistance of about 13 ohms and would weigh about .3 >grams. My auto brake lamp filaments are 0.46 ohms and weigh maybe 0.01 grams. > Scott, Where are the tungsten filaments commercially available from? >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:03:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00585; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:51:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:51:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980202145057.00ab9ba8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 14:50:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP response! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Tjysw3.0.39.37Zrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Oh boy! They're finally talking to me.... >We want to acknowlege receiving your mail and assure you that it has been >passed on to the appropriate person. Personal response time will vary >depending on the request and avaliblity . We are sorry if this causes you >any inconvenience. > >Thank you for your interest in our company, and for contacting BlackLight >Power, Inc.. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:11:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02487; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:04:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:04:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D6332C.5A89 skylink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 12:57:16 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: More about Magnetic Paradox Puzzle References: <9c3a5afa.34d433db aol.com> <34D60D2F.59C0@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iMTVx2.0.jc.zIZrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jean and List. A couple more thoughts about the magnetic paradox puzzle. If you want to clearly see what is happening, move either of the scope probes through a vertical position and watch the voltage change. It will go to zero and exhibit a phase reversal as you pass through vertical, and then will begin to build up to the voltage on the other side. It also occurs to me, that much of the apparent "paradox" results because the experiment consists of a single turn coil. In measurements this causes the potential in the coil to be directly countered by the potential induced in the probe leads. If you set up a similar experiment with two different resistors on opposite sides of an un-insulated multi-turn coil, you would be able to physically see the voltage changing as you move the probes to attach to different parts of the multi-turn coil. Regards, Robert Stirnim From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:13:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22848; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:08:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:08:55 -0800 Message-ID: <34D635D9.73DD interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:08:41 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new BLP info References: <3.0.1.32.19980202114029.00ab0470 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vnPRt2.0.wa5.cNZrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > > 2. Their tungsten filament is huge: 200 cm long 0.1mm diameter. This > would have a cold resistance of about 13 ohms and would weigh about .3 > grams. My auto brake lamp filaments are 0.46 ohms and weigh maybe 0.01 grams. > My gosh, Scott, I wonder what filiment voltage they use. I have a 300 watt halogen lamp bulb with a cold resistance of 3.1 ohms. The coiled portion of the filiment is 5.5 cm long (about 1 cm of straight on each end for contacts) which would indicate a voltage gradient along the coiled portion of about 120/5.5 = 21.8 volts/cm. At BLP pressure levels, maybe their filiments run with even more voltage gradient and, thus, an appreciable ionic/electron by-pass current flow - like the arc question Horace was speculating about. Maybe this IS a big source of H?? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:17:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23534; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:11:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:11:25 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: <6e887b2e.34d63524 aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:05:38 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BLP response! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Resent-Message-ID: <"u6HL73.0.cl5.xPZrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-02 16:02:11 EST, you write: << Oh boy! They're finally talking to me. >> ?????????????? Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:23:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24258; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:13:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:13:29 -0800 Message-ID: <34D63701.73C9 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:13:37 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP response! References: <3.0.1.32.19980202145057.00ab9ba8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bdT1A3.0.ow5.tRZrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Oh boy! They're finally talking to me.... > I hope this is good news, Scott - but it sounds about like the response you would get if you sent the same letter to the White House. With fingers crossed ----- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:32:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29699; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:25:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:25:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980202152646.00ab75fc mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:26:46 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: new BLP info In-Reply-To: <34D635D9.73DD interlaced.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980202114029.00ab0470 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3IYnb2.0.hF7.NdZrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 16:08 2/2/98 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >My gosh, Scott, I wonder what filiment voltage they use. we can figure that out. The max fil power is 41 watts and the temp is 2000K. At 2000K, R is about 10x Rcold....i.e. about 130 ohm. So V is 73 volts. >thus, an appreciable ionic/electron by-pass current flow - could be happening, I suppose...but 73 volts is pretty low for that kind of stuff. Paul Brown asks: >Where are the tungsten filaments commercially available from? I found one place: Midwest Tungsten www.tungsten.com and Fred S. sent me another link a while back that I lost. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 13:38:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA31364; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:28:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:28:31 -0800 From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199802022128.AA07856 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 14:23:15 -0500 To: Subject: Re: BLP response! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Fy7ng.0.tf7.ufZrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >We want............ > >Thank you for your interest in our company, and for contacting BlackLight >Power, Inc.. Can you say "AutoResponder"! 5 min and PERL and you too can generate useless email! Hope they actually read stuff from that accound and not just forward it to /dev/null...... Anton Rager Denver, CO arager McGraw-Hill.com [WK] arager idcomm.com [HM] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 15:00:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18967; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:46:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:46:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980202174536.00b36b10 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:45:36 -0500 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: BLP Runs & Tungsten Trivia Cc: "vortex-l" In-Reply-To: <01bd2df9$18e661a0$9093410c default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ASqiF2.0.Ee4.toarq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:34 PM 1/30/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >The Thoriated Tungsten filaments are made by... Hmmm... The electodes for most Xenon lamps and flashtubes use thoriated tungsten for a different reason. The emitted alpha particles keep the gas in the tube slightly ionized. Those ions are needed to start the avalanche in the flash. If the electrodes are not thoriated, and you store a flashtube in a dark/red light only environment for several days, they won't fire... Of course, the reason that this is important to Scott is that I would be very suspicious of any results using thoriated electrodes that didn't show excess heat--from the decay of the thorium. Of course the amount used may fall below the sensitivity of the aparatus, but with electrodes, it may be difficult to determine how much gets deposited on the walls. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 15:34:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15429; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:23:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:23:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D646FF.73BF interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:21:51 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new BLP info References: <3.0.1.32.19980202114029.00ab0470 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980202152646.00ab75fc@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gyiks1.0.um3.sTarq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > At 16:08 2/2/98 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > >My gosh, Scott, I wonder what filiment voltage they use. > > we can figure that out. The max fil power is 41 watts and the temp is > 2000K. At 2000K, R is about 10x Rcold....i.e. about 130 ohm. So V is 73 > volts. Wait a minute, Scott - you use about 10 watts and they use 4 times as much power. But, their filiment is *30* times more massive and 100 or 200 times longer than yours??? Man, are they using a different thermodynamics than we are? I realize the weight ratio says little about the surface area ratio for heat emission - but still - it seems a bit "off". Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 17:47:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01644; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:41:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:41:03 -0800 From: "Mike McDonald" Organization: AR School for Math & Science To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:34:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Banked Curves&Orbital Velocities Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <18AAC92ED4 asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us> Resent-Message-ID: <"Zt-GM.0.ZP.jMdrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm currently involved in research relating banked curve velocities to orbital velocities. This mathematically comes from the assumption of gravitational distortion and an imaginary tangential plane at any point. If anyone has any input, please email me. What did the Narcissist say to Einstein??? ME=MC^2 Micheal P. McDonald Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences Rm. 1324 100 Whittington Avenue Hot Springs, AR 71901 McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 17:50:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01204; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:39:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:39:35 -0800 From: "Mike McDonald" Organization: AR School for Math & Science To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:33:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: EMAIL CHESS Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: <18A3A938AB asms1x.dsc.k12.ar.us> Resent-Message-ID: <"9btYc1.0.jI.LLdrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Would anyone be interested in a game of email chess? It is quite similar to chess by mail, but quicker. Let me know What did the Narcissist say to Einstein??? ME=MC^2 Micheal P. McDonald Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences Rm. 1324 100 Whittington Avenue Hot Springs, AR 71901 McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 17:59:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03775; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:52:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:52:06 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: , , , , , , , , , , <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <76002.1473 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , Cc: Subject: Re: Blue: three Arata papers Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:48:19 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980203014824488.AAA164 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"oaOsn.0.qw.4Xdrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Thanks, to Mike Carrell for digging out and presenting some > of the significant details missing from the 56 page paper by > Arata and Zhang. I believe some questions still remain, however. Your'e welcome > As to cell construction, the sketches in the 56-page version > indicate a more complex design than the plan cylinder MiKe > describes. In particular the indicated reentrant well for > a temperature probe and a port for connection to some unspecified > pressure transducer ought to be explained. Seeing the new papers now available, it is apparent that the Fig 5 diagram is a kind of schematic composite which illustrates the physical arrangements used, rather than a literal depiction of a specific experiment. Thus the 1994 papers show measurements of the temperature inside the capsule and of the external capsule wall, but these probes were probably not in place for the long runs of Fig 8 in the 1997 paper; at least, data from those probes (if still there) were not used in the calorimetry. I also would like > to know how the cell is sealed off after filling with Pd black. > As I ask earlier is there any welding (I should think there must be.) > involved in the fabrication and/or sealing, and precisely what > welding technique is employed. I'd like to know too. I can only assume they know what they are doing and have the technical resources at hand. Seems like a good trick. > The cell, as Mike describes it, has "thick" walls. I don't think > that one can overlook the fact that this means that most of > the Pd loaded with deuterium is ordinary solid metal and NOT > Pd black. For the dimensions I chose, this could seem so. However, D+ can diffuse through the walls, and there is measurement evidence that it does so. Once through the walls, it can form D2 molecules if enough energy is present, or it can migrate over the surface of the Pd black (spillover). The forces encouraging this migration are strong, and the distance into the individual particles short, so it could well be that D+ is only passing through the capsule walls and accumulates in the Pd black as a "sink", reaching the critical loading for initiation of the CF reaction. The concentration of D+ in the capsule walls may thus be low. Now how does one determine that it is the Pd black > that is the site of any heat source within this cell? It seems > to me the experimental evidence is rather weak on this point. The heat can come from any place where the local conditions are right, whether in the capsule walls or in the Pd black. Heat has been observed in solid cathodes in many experiments from F&P onward. A&Z's DS cathode is a way of increasing the surface/mass ratio -- as is the Patterson cell -- so the loading can be faster. In both cases internal stresses as the loading increases can cause micro-fractures, resulting in de-loading. Patterson uses a thin film on a spherical bead, which handles the stresses well. A&Z used Pd black, in which the particles are so small, a few thousand atoms across, that loading stresses should not matter. There is strong evidence of heating of the Pd black. Page 40 of the 1997 report shows evidence of partial melting of the particles, and the QMS measurements of gases evolved from the heated Pd black show the presence of 4He and 3He, ash of nuclear reactions releasing heat. > Now back to the pressure questions I have raised before. I am > confused about the wide range of pressures that are discussed > as being involved here. Is it 4 atm or 900,000 atm that > correlates with loading of the Pd black. It's 900 atm, not 900,000. 900 atm is mentioned in the 1997 paper as the saturation point of a pressure gauge used to measure internal pressure of the capsule as depicted in Fig 9 of the 1997 paper. Fig 7 of that report, and the text, indicates that A&Z believe the actual pressure may have been well above 1000 atm. The 4 atm pressure is an arbitrary one chosen in another experiment described in the 1994 paper. Here again, you are at a disadvantage not having the paper before you. It was posted by Akiri Kawasaki on Vortex, perhaps Rich Murray could send it to you. The 1994 paper discusses the properties of the Pd black at length, and one bit of evidence for the efficacy of the Pd black is that if you pressurize a capsule by electrolysis, turn the current off, and then let the pressure decay by diffusion out of the capsule, the decay rate is much slower if the capsule is packed with Pd black. A pressure of 4 atm was chosen as the "off" point in both cases. This choice is, I think, somewhat arbitrary, for convenience in the experiment or instrumentation. > I think there is some confusion here concerning the direct transport > of deuterium from the inner wall of the cell to the grains of > Pd black. Is this supposed to occur via some form of surface > creep with a surface density of deuterium that is somehow > disconnected from the gas density? I'd like to see a real > solid discussion of that phenomena. It sounds fishy to me. What you are referring to is "spillover", or surface migration. Indeed, many in the chemical community doubted this phenomenon, and the first international symposium was not held until 1983, and third and latest in 1993. You can find a discussion of spillover in Curtis and Falconer, "Spillover in Heterogeneous Catalysts", Chemical Review, 1995, 95, 759-788. I have puzzled over this myself and have some recent correspondence with Jean-Paul Beberian, a surface chemist, trying to grasp it better. Kirk Shanahan has also commented in this area. I plan another post on this subject. This is surface chemistry, an area of forbidding complexity. It is D+ which migrates through the walls of the capsule and preferentially migrates across the touching surfaces of the Pd black particles. > If the the use of Pd black is especially significant because > it has such a high surface-to-volume ratio then there is lots > of surface available to exchange atoms with the surrounding > space. And if the energy is available at that surface the > pressure should show a rather rapid response to an increase > of the surface density of deuterium. So we are supposed to > have a heat source here, perhaps hot enough to "melt" the > Pd. So tell us, Mike, what keeps the deuterium stuck to > the surface to any special degree? See my comment above. Basically it is that D+ can interact with the electron clouds surrounding the host Pd atoms at the surface, forming a quasi-chemical bond. D+ diffusing into the crystal lattice experiences balanced attraction (first approximation) and can diffuse through the lattice. To escape, however, two D+ must find each other at the surface, grab electrons, and form a D2 molecule which will be electrically neutral. This is endothermic but can occur when the surface population of D+ gets great enough and the internal temperature of the lattice becomes great enough. > I am also still waiting for a clarification of the role that > "deformation" plays in a determination of the interior > pressure of a cell. Please continue to wait. Patience will be required. As I stated previously, the "deformation" is mentioned in passing, is not quantified, and thus plays no part in the "determination of the interior pressure of the cell". This was done with cells prepared with proper instrumentation, which may not have been the same as used in the runs depicted in Fig 8 of the 1997 report. > As for my comments concerning tritium, let's start with the > fact that commercial heavy water contains detectable amounts > of tritium. You have to pay through the nose to have the > tritium concentration reduced if that is important to your > application. Do the A&Z papers address the question of > tritium contamination of the electrolyte? Not to my knowledge, and I think it irrelevant. The 1997 paper from the Proceedings of the Japan Academy (not the 56 page paper) makes it emphatically clear that 3T was not found in the Pd black by the closed QMS tests, clearly excluding the Rutherford reaction. The QMS measurements were made on Pd black removed from the capsule after a heat run was completed. There is no contact between the electrolyte and the Pd black, as should be clear from Fig. 5 of the 56 page report. > In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the prudent assumption > must be that there is some tritium available to participate in > the loading of the Pd. One should note that this tritium is a > potential source of a number of ion species that could (perhaps > should) show up in the mass spec scans. Is the 3He signal possibly > tritium instead? Unfortunately A&Z show us only truncated mass > scans so we don't really know what the entire ion spectrum looks like. > Who knows what secrets lie outside the range of the scan? I suppose it is possible that 3T in the electrolyte could migrate through the capsule walls as well as D or H, and participate in whatever reactions occur. Since it is rare, it seems very doubtful that 3T would contribute significantly to any of the QMS data given. The above-cited 1997 paper is extremely detailed in its treatment of possible contaminants which have mass numbers in the range of interest, such as HD, etc. One way of distinguishing them is by manipulation of the ionization potential. I have not studied this well enough to make a capsule summary. > Perhaps the tritium concentration has, indeed, been lowered to > insignificance for the mass spec scans, but that does not totally > remove it from further possible influence on the experimental > outcome. It all harks back to the sensitivity for neutron detection > that is available as a diagnostic tool for this type of experimentation. > When you have factors of billions to throw away in the relative > sensitivity for detecting nuclear processes, neutron detection has > alot to recommend it when compare to calorimetry. > > So my question is, given the types of reaction mechanisms that A&Z > dream up out of thin air, what happens when you include tritium > in the fuel mix? I claim the tritium is there! A&Z are quite emphatic on the point. Two distinct issues are at stake. The well-known Rutherford DD reaction has 3T as one of its end products, and its presence in the Pd black, along with 4He and 3He, would be a signature of the standard reaction seen in plasmas. Its absence is an indication that the reaction is *not* the Rutherford, along with the absence of gamma and neutron flux. You argue for 3T entering the Pd black from the electrolyte. If so, then its presence in the Pd black (none was found) would not be an indication of the Rutherfrod reaction. I am a bit puzzled in that A&Z use a sealed, gettered, QMS system. The getter should scavenge 3T and its compounds along with D. However, the removal of D is gradual and in the early part of a run there would be time to manipulate the ionization potential to detect any 3T and compounds that may be present. > While on the subject, I must say that I can not comprehend how serious > people can continue to propose a wild assortment of multibody reaction > processes with no thought being given to how probabilities combine in > complex events. The multibody reactions are complex and no one has a supercomputer budget to compute probabilities. CF advocates can't justify any enhancement in the rate > for a simple 2-body fusion process so they jump to 57-body processes > as being more likely to occur. Get real! A basic point of contention is the insistence by CF critics that the only possible nuclear reaction is the Rutherford because it has been so well studied in plasmas and in mathematical models of 2-body systems. These are examples of reductionism in full cry; they are studied so well because they are mathematically tractable. It is simply an assumption, a hopeful assumption, that particles behave in a periodic lattice in the same way they behave in a plasma. Julian Schwinger nailed this point very early in the game, I believe. We have in the A&Z experiments clear evidence that nuclear reactions occur, but they are not those described by Rutherford. There are other, ample examples, that Nature does not truncate mathematical series because the calculations become inconvenient. The 'discovery' of deterministic chaos is one example. it took a specialized computer orrey to discover the chaotic motions in the supposedly well-ordered motions of the planets in the solar system. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 19:14:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00779; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:05:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:05:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980202220448.00b4b840 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:04:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Atomic Hydrogen Torch Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34da90b4.141258343 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980120200635.00cf05d0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980127163054.00be5c00 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jGFdw.0.4C.qberq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:08 AM 1/31/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:30:54 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >> p+ + h- ---> h2+ + energy > > The charge in this reaction doesn't balance. > Did you mean: p+ + h- --> h2+ + e- + 1.85 eV, or > perhaps p+ + h --> h2+ + 2.65 eV ? Ooops, the later. >Of these two, the latter results in only a single particle, which >makes it improbable as part of a chain reaction. Quite right, and I think that is why it is not a problem in liquid. Also, as you can see, impurities can do very nasty things as catalysts. Actually, the container you use has to be one that won't adsorb the hydrogen, and act as a catalyst that way. >>O + O --> O2+ + e-, and it will happen. > >This reaction is as far as I can determine endothermic. I.e. > > O + O --> O2+ + e- -6.954 eV > >So I suspect that it won't happen without help. What sort of help did >you have in mind? That looks like way too much (negative) energy, and I can't believe I wrote O2+. I think it is: O + e- ---> O- O- + O ---> O2 + e- In any case, the form is a reaction catalyzed by an electron that releases more electrons from high energy collisions. As in one free electron and boom. In any case, the practical result is that O2, H2O2, HNO3, and O3 are all good rocket fuel oxidizers, single H makes a good fuel all by itself, and no one has succeeded in making a stable form of atomic oxygen. However, when you do electrolysis, you can form "nacent oxygen" which will oxidize just about anything, inlcuding clorine. (ClO2 is stable, but is not as good as LOx as a rocket fuel, and much harder to handle. You can also make OF2, the only compound where oxygen is oxidized, but again not as good as O2 as an oxidizer for most fuels, and much harder to deal with. The best known oxidizer for hydrogen is actually LO3--liquid ozone. ;-) >>The closest you can come to monoatomic oxygen other than in an >>electrolytic solution is Xenon trioxide. >> It makes monoatomic hydrogen look well behaved. >If you have never seen monatomic oxygen *in isolation*, then how do >you know that it is so difficult to handle? Wrong referent. XeO3 makes monoatomic hydrogen look... XeO3 is stable in (water) solution, but as a solid if you even look at it funny it blows up. Very, very, violently. I had to do some experiments with it--back to those Xenon tubes, trying to understand the chemistry at the (thoriated tungsten) electrode. Turned out the principle reaction was to form XeW04 (not sure about the 4, it has been a while). Of course, it turned out that when you dissolved it in water you got XeO3. Fortunately, I knew about the risk and worked with milligram quantities, and still destroyed a lot of lab equipment. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 19:36:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25416; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:23:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:23:50 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <5d036785.34d68c8c aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:18:33 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: new BLP info Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"MMNJZ.0.0D6.4terq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-02 12:44:29 EST, you write: > 1. They are using KNO2 potassium nitrite....not KNO3. I thought this was > a typo in the original description but there's no question about it now. > 3. They do not flow hydrogen thru the cell. "The cell was operated in a > static condition, all valves were closed once 2000 millitorr hydrogen was > established." > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. Scott, The above is true for Section 3 of New Fractional Quantum Energy Levels of Hydrogen but in the preceding section 2 (page 4) of the same report is mentioned that they (BLP) used " 40% by weight potassium nitrate (KNO3) on graphitic carbon powder with 5% by weight 1% Pd on graphitic carbon powder" as a catalyst agent. (yes this is a very different experiment) Now for the really strange, page 5 same section: ....."The red curve of figure 3 shows the thermal output of switch over from helium to hydrogen to 25 hours for *FLOWING HYDROGEN* at a rate of 10 ml/min. with a pressure of *40 PSI* in the presence of ionic hydrogen spillover catalytic material: 40% by weight potassium nitrate (KNO3) on graphitic carbon powder with 5% by weight 1%-Pd-on-graphitic carbon." <* my emphisis> "Flowing H2" and "40 PSI".... Oh boy, many are the twists and turns on this road ! I see this particular experiment was run a long time with "flowing helium". Maybe that is the secret to getting the filiment to last. Bakeout with flowing He at 10 ml/minute. And, just another kicker. In the section 3 writeup nowhere do I see a catalyst container/holder. Just dumped in the bottom of the cell? I guess that would work but somewhat of a mess. Regards, Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 20:58:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12659; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:53:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:53:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980202225238.008698d0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:52:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: new BLP info In-Reply-To: <5d036785.34d68c8c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xBSjk.0.Y53.7Bgrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:18 PM 2/2/98 EST, VCockeram aol.com wrote: >...in the preceding section 2....KNO3 on graphitic carbon powder >...at a rate of 10 ml/min. with a pressure of *40 PSI* The two experiments are VERY different indeed. This is more support for my hope that this hydrino formation is a very robust effect that happens any time you get hydrogen, K, and hot filaments together...except, of course, in our apparatus!... >And, just another kicker. In the section 3 writeup nowhere do I see >a catalyst container/holder. Just dumped in the bottom of the cell? Good point. That detail has been conspicuously absent from all descriptions of this particular experiment. I think it could be very important. The KNO2 must be heated just right to get it to vaporize sufficiently and not decompose excessively. Frank S points out that their filament power density is quite different than ours. The auto brake lamp filaments are tightly coiled from 0.1mm wire (same wire dia as the BLP filament) and I'd guess that the total length is maybe 5 cm. So we have only 1/40th the length but we're putting at least 1/4 the power to it!....AND ours is coiled (which makes it run hotter) and theirs is not! Dang, Frank, you're right. Compared to them we're overdriving our little filament! It did occur to me that maybe the 200cm was supposed to be 200mm. If you look at the drawing, it looks more like 200mm, no? That would put us fairly even on filament power density. BTW, today I ordered some 0.1mm W wire and some KNO2. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 21:58:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24911; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:55:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:55:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D6A346.5E02 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:55:34 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, sevior@kosal0.triumf.ca, ell lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, gravitics1@aol.com, sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion transmutation.com, aki.@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, mconnolly grainsystems.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst loc1.tandem.com, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Shanahan: critique of 1997 Arata QMS References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"i1ea91.0.456.q4hrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Some comments on Arata&Zhang's mass spectrometry Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:22 -0400 (EDT) From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov To: rmforall earthlink.net Rich, After having carefully studied the 56-page 1997 Arata and Zhang paper (A&Z), and specifically here the mass spectrometry sections, I find myself less impressed than I initially was. The use of the high resolution quadrupole spectrometer to develop the 'coupled spectra' was initially intriguing and visually attractive. However, I now recognize this technique as being a somewhat useful adaptation of the more normal technique of temperature programmed desorption (TPD). In fact, Figures 17 ('limited' QMS), 22-[II], and 22-[VI] (and the replot on 22-[VII]) ('closed QMS') are direct examples of TPD spectra. The immediate issue at hand being addressed by the QMS work is whether or not 3-He and 4-He are present. As usual, even if these species are detected their origin must also be identified, as 3-He is a normal decay product of tritium, and 4-He is a constituent of the atmosphere. So the issue is not just detecting the He isotopes, but correctly assigning their origin as well. A&Z note that 'normal QMS' was shown to have a 4-He inleakage problem. Thus they first developed 'limited QMS', followed by 'closed QMS' to solve that problem. They present copious data showing the coupled mass 4 spectra which are resolved into 4-He and D2, and make the claim that it is all from cold fusion. The question now becomes does the data support their claim. I draw your attention now to Figure 17 of the '97 paper. What we see are overlays of the various unresolved unit mass traces from a deuterated and a non-deuterated sample acquired with 'limited QMS'. Please note the mass 4 traces. Both sample show abnormal mass 4 characteristics when compared to the rest of the traces. Specifically, we see an increase with time, while all other traces decrease with time. This indicates mass 4 is growing in as time progresses. For the deuterated sample, this might be a suggestion of 4-He from cold fusion, but where does it come from in the non-deuterated sample?? My conclusion is that the 'limited QMS' technique has not solved the 4-He inleakage problem noted in 'normal QMS'. Thus I discount all 4-He 'limited QMS' data based claims for cold fusion. No information is given as to the details of how 'closed QMS' is conducted (I am referring to sample mount and chamber design here), other than to note that the sample is heated in a closed chamber, and then the evolved gases are allowed to expand stepwise into a second chamber that contains the QMS instruments and an unspecified hydrogen getter pump. If the source of the 4-He in the 'limited QMS' case is still present in the 'closed QMS' case, then we would expect the same signal to be present in the 'closed QMS' spectra. This needs to be remembered when interpreting the 'closed QMS' data. Moving on to Figure 22-[VI] now, we see that there are some differences between the deuterated and non-deuterated samples (emphasized by Figure 22-[VII]). However we also not that the valving protocols were different. That could be important considering the baseline shift problem I note below. In the case of the non-deuterated sample, we again note the apparent significant mass 4 peak. What is it? 4-He? We also note the more intense signals in the mass 3 and mass 2 traces. Again, where does mass 3 come from? This sample was supposed to be non-deuterated, why doesn't the trace remain in the baseline like the mass 5, 6, and 7 traces? Considering that no signal should be present in masses 3 and 4 in the non-deuterated sample, the _differences_ between the deuterated and non-deuterated samples are seen to be reasonably small, and could well be considered to be sample-to-sample variation of the same material. I will stipulate that many of the coupled spectra from the 'closed QMS' case show the presence of 4-He, with a minor caveat noted below. However, it is completely unclear to me if the inleakage problem described for the 'normal QMS' problem has been removed or not. Thus, I conclude that the evidence does not clearly support the conclusion that cold fusion is active in the Pd black. As an aside, look at Figure 22-[II]. We see a coupled spectrum of masses 3 and 4 from a 'closed QMS' run. The Figure labeling says "4-He-2>>D2". But if that is true, why do we not see the clear 4-He peak as we see the mass 3 peak? The mass-4 peak shows an amorphous character that is incongruous with the 'coupled spectrum' approach. I believe we can understand this when we note the sloping background of the mass 3 peak, and then go to any one of several 'coupled spectra'. Let's choose Figure 22-[II]-[A]. Note what happens to the background at Qs, an abrubt amorphous hump develops. Clearly the baseline of the spectrometer is being affected by pressure. This has the effect of making interpretation of the TPD-like spectra (Figs. 17, 22-[II], and 22-[VI]) very difficult because now a 'peak' in those Figures could simply be a pressure rise due to some other gasses, not the desired specific mass gas. Figure 17 shows considerable H2 and water present. Both these species would be pumped to some extent by a normal metallic getter (such as Ti, which I am guessing is what A&Z use). Thus the baseline change in Figure 22-[II] might simply be a pumping away of water evolved from the sample during heating. Only if Figures 17, etc. are produced by extracting resolved peak intensities from the background can we trust the implied quantitative information shown in those Figures. Without a mention of how the data in those Figures is produced, I assume the simplest approach, which is to fix the spectrometer at that mass and watch the time evolution of the signal. Note that the sketch of the system does imply the use of two spectrometers, but clearly there is some 'multiplexing' going on, where a computer acquires several mass traces at once (otherwise the Figures represent several runs combined on single Figures). So what _was_ the actual data workup protocol? Was baseline shift corrected for or not? What was the algorithm used to compute peak intensity on a sloping baseline? Furthermore I have detected another minor problem. Look at the bottommost coupled spectrum of Figure 20. Starting at the wavy lines past the 6 minute mark, and working backwards, I can see a pattern replicated almost every time three peaks are viewed together as a triplet. As a function of increasing time, the peak intensities go high-low-intermediate. Out of 12 triplets occurring after the Imax point (and doing some adjusting for the sloping background) I see 7 triplets that show this pattern. Most of the others only diverge slightly. This indicates to me at least some kind of electronic interference on a periodic basis, partially masked by normal noise. This 'triplet' effect can be noted in many spectra, not just the one I point out. The cause seems to come and go, unless the time sequencing of the data collection would resolve the issue. The authors need to go back and clean up their electronics a bit. This opens quite a can of worms. If an electronic interference can be observed, what else might be present? How much of the double peaks in the couple spectra are real? Note that there is no real calibration of the technique presented. A single spectrum is presented in the Appendix taken from a prepared gas mixture, but it seems to be at about an order of magnitude greater intensity. Does the QMS produce a strictly linear pressure-intensity relationship, especially as the pressure drops to lower orders of magnitude? At some point the answer will be 'no', but where is that point? Thus considering the mass 4 traces of Figure 17, the pressure-induced baseline shifts, and the other minor difficulties noted, I cannot conclude with certainty the 4-He observed in the 'closed QMS' case in fact can be attributed solely to the proposed cold fusion reaction. In theory A&Z's approach could work, but the difficulties listed above and the lack of experimental details demonstrating a control over the 'effect' make the differentiation into 'CF' or 'non-CF' case impossible. Considering the 3-He vs. 3-H (T) issue now. The first problem is that these species are unresolvable by mass spectrometry. Thus we can only use the gettering behavior of the mass 3 traces to indicate the lack of T (no change => no T), or perhaps the 'V-I effect' experiments. There is only one coupled spectrum presented that deals with the mass 3 region, Figure 22-[III]-[B]-b (which relates back to Figure 22-[II]). I feel that the spectrum presented in Fig 22-[III] is at such low intensity that we cannot be sure the 'peaks' shown are not just a single peak broadened and affected by baseline noise. But A&Z claim they have detected 3-He, so for the sake of argument, I will assume that is true. Again, the only mass spectral Figures dealing with the time dependence of the mass 3 trace are Figures 17, 22-[II], and 22-[VI] (and [VII]). In Figure 22-[VI] it is clear that pressure steps are being used, and I feel the minor baseline drifts can not be conclusively attributed to the generic pressure effect on the spectral baseline as opposed to any specific gettering effect. The mass 3 traces in Figure 17 also seem ambiguous. In the non-deuterated sample the mass 4 peak is increasing. Does this tail over into the mass 3 trace late in the spectrum? We have an anomalous mass 6 hump also for the non-deuterated sample. Is this released T2, which would cause a concomitant peak in mass 3? (Note that if T2 is released into an environment rich with H2, it will exchange on metal surfaces (especially hot ones) and make HT, mass 4. Is that why the mass 4 line keeps sloping up? Gettering might resolve that question, so we look at Figure 22-[VI] again, but we see no noticeable gettering, even though the time span is much longer! This actually might be good! It suggests the peaks are He isotopes. But, now we turn to the 'VI-effect' plots shown theoretically in Figure 22-[IV], and in reality in 22-[V]. We note the theoretical presentation is reasonable, one 'transition step' per 'extra' ionizable species (i.e. 2 species gives 1 step). And we observe 3 steps in the mass 3 trace, and two in the mass 2 trace. Mass 4 shows no steps, indicating one species present, probably 4-He based on the coupled spectra work. So now we ask, what are the 4 species indicated in the mass 3 trace? Possibly 3-He, DH, and T, but we need one more. Can DH ionize in two populations, with the electron loss occurring at the D and the H atom at slightly different energies? I do not know. However, I do know that the traces shown in Figure 22-[V] support the conclusion that more than two species are present. Thus I fail to see how T can be eliminated from consideration. To me the case is indeterminate again. If T was present in the sample, 3-He will be present also. The relative amounts will involve when and how much T2 the sample saw. Of course, we have _no_ historical data on the samples. So we are left with insufficient information once again. I've run out of time and energy on this issue, so to recap the basic points: - It seems that the 'limited QMS' configuration is still leaky, as the non-deuterated sample shows anomalous mass 3 and 4 traces. - The 'VI-effect' plots imply multiple mass 3 species present, and do not exclude T as one of them, thus confounding the 3-He peak's origin. - The interferences in the coupled mass spectral technique make interpretation of the TPD-like plots ambiguous, and the coupled spectra presented are not easily visually interpreted (because of interferences) quantitatively. - Because the 'mundane' sources of 3-He and 4-He do not seem to be excluded, no pro-CF conclusion can be drawn. Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 22:28:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18745; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:21:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:21:12 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34D6A939.1F05 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:20:57 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new BLP info References: <3.0.1.32.19980202114029.00ab0470 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EO8ws3.0.Za4.5bgrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > I continue to be > concerned over their calorimetry. They judge the experiment to be > producing excess heat only because it takes less filament > power to keep the temp sensor at 280C than cartridge heater power. > As Dushman says, "at temperatures above 2000K, this dissociation > of the gas in contact with the filament causes the absorption of a > very large quantity of heat. The atomic hydrogen produced > diffuses out and recombines at the walls to form > molecules with the liberation of heat". > Of course, this is just speculation. Yes, but a potentially important effect. Most of my work on hot fusion was in modeling plasma-wall interactions, and there the energy deposited on the walls by recombination is important to wall heating, wall damage etc. H+ + e recombo generates about as much energy deposition there as H + H, but it definitely happens. In a plasma, sheath potential effects enhance this even more, since ions at temp T in the plasma are accelerated up to temps around 3T by the electrostatic potential layers that form on materials in contact with plasmas. One could almost certainly set up a system where this could be used to generate an erroneous temperature measurements..... Hey---forget BLP, this gives us a great idea for a plasma device that can generate massive bogus excess heat results... lets start a company, and start looking for suck...er, investors! :-) --- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 22:32:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07690; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:25:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:25:49 -0800 Message-ID: <34D6AAF8.2222 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 23:28:24 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP response! References: <3.0.1.32.19980202145057.00ab9ba8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0qwiB2.0.xt1.hXhrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Feb. 2, 1998 Yeah, Scott, that's the only response I ever got from BLP, so after months of trying, I gave up on them. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 2 22:41:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11512; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:38:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:38:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34D6BB7F.3B18 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 01:38:55 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new BLP info References: <3.0.5.32.19980202225238.008698d0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0Sx2-1.0.np2.rjhrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > (snip) > It did occur to me that maybe the 200cm was supposed to be 200mm. If you > look at the drawing, it looks more like 200mm, no? That would put us > fairly even on filament power density. > I think you have it nailed, Scott! 200 mm = about 8 inches 200 cm = about 80 inches!! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 05:16:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10486; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:13:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:13:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Grease-Gun Cold Fusion? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:08:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd30a4$d3b0efc0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"P9wLs.0.mZ2.dVnrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The number of Hydrogen atoms/gram: molecules/cm^3 pressure (atm)* (psig)* Solid Hydrogen 2.608E22 970 14,254 Solid Deuterium 1.304E22 485 7,126 Tap water 3.35E22 1,244 18,288 D2O 3.31E22 1,232 18,106 Pd/H (1:1) 6.7E22 1,244 18,288 * pressure to compress the gas to the same density. Conclusion: The hydrogen in tap-water is just as dense as that in the Palladium-Hydrogen at 1:1 Pd/Hydrogen. Thus tapwater should be undergoing CF at the spigot. :-) So, a cheap grease-gun easily capable of 20,000 psi with a "cheater" pipe on the handle and a cap on the outlet (1/8" mpt)can provide the heat to push the temperature up to O/U levels. Perhaps a Pd-black catalyst? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 05:41:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16135; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:35:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 05:35:32 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <1cf3e0e8.34d71d17 aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:35:17 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: How to build the Testatica and more.... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"Oh28V3.0.-x3.Yqnrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I have updated my web site with some intresting news... After the crazy "Magnetic Paradox...", today, you will find : - The complete detail for building the "Testatica" generator and the process explained for converting electrostatic energy into electrodynamic power (by courtesy of Nelson Camus), - Many informations about Nelson Camus' technologies : - The "Nithium" Cold Fusion reactor, - The "Nithium" Turbo-Battery, - and the personal biography of Nelson Camus.... More to come very soon.... All these informations may be found at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/nelson/nelson.htm I hope that this will interest you, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+1 ) ( This mail has been sent at 1315 GMT on February 3, 1998 ) Email : JNaudin509 aol.com my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 10:20:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22671; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:12:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: BLP info Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:09:28 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd30ce$de6af670$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_tl7l3.0.5Y5.Hurrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The following URL contains some interesting pictures & diagrams. http://blacklightpower.com/cgi/byteserver.pl/blp93-116.pdf p107 (left side) may be the reactor that Scott is trying to reproduce. p108 other reactor photos? p109 is a diagram of a proposed(?) 1500C reactor. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 12:43:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06000; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:36:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:36:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:36:17 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Came to me while commuting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"WGAIZ.0.fT1.7_trq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: HOW TO CLIMB A MOUNTAIN (w/thanx to T.S. Kuhn and M. Planck) Rush briefly upwards while stepping on the hands and faces of colleagues. Build a well-defended base camp. Attack anyone who tries to proceed upwards past you. Convince yourself that the rest of the mountain doesn't exist. After decades finally die, which leaves your camp undefended. Other mountaineers repeat the process. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 14:15:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28984; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:04:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:04:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Paul Brown" To: Subject: Re: Stripping and flipping Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:02:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd30ef$783b2160$69a89bcf isonix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"bL34l3.0.i47.yHvrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robert I. Eachus To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, January 26, 1998 6:51 PM Subject: Re: Stripping and flipping >(While writing this article, I found a neat paper on the proposed uses of >high-powered linacs: > > http://www.cern.ch/Linac96/Proceedings/Monday/MO102/Paper.html > > among other things it discusses using deuterons to create neutrons, and >sub-critical nuclear reactors. If you guys are serious about following up >on this stuff, here is hardware that you can build in your basement. ;-) >That should really be a half-smiley, the front-ends of the high energy >accellerators are basement sized projects, and would generate about a 100 >keV beam. > Robert, I am interested. Tell me more of what you have in mind for a small linear accelerator. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 14:42:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05622; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:36:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:36:11 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Alkali Hydrinostat Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:45:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd30ed$022fa060$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GFKGV2.0.jN1.Nlvrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stuff Needed: KOH and H2O, 2mm I.D. x 8mm O.D. x 100mm QUARTZ Tubing Solid State Light Dimmer-Switch 120 V.A.C. 50-60 Hz 15 amp outlet. Solid copper wire; drawn to 2mm O.D. Tightly pack one end of tube with a lead plug about 20mm from end of tube. Put in H20-KOH "slurry" about 60mm length. Tightly pack lead plug in other end of tube. Install solid copper wire in each end and seal with epoxy. Place set-up BEHIND BLAST SHIELD! Apply power Gradually! WITH SAFETY DISCLAIMER! Regards, Frederick Hook to light dimmer switch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 14:42:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05601; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:36:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:36:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: GMASSOC CFQ Tubing and Rod Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:29:21 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd30ea$cad55120$2383410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD30B0.1E767920" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"GeHcV3.0.QN1.Jlvrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD30B0.1E767920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.gmassoc.com/tubing.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD30B0.1E767920 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="GMASSOC CFQ Tubing and Rod.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="GMASSOC CFQ Tubing and Rod.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.gmassoc.com/tubing.htm Modified=E047F0B7EA30BD01A6 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD30B0.1E767920-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 15:35:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15738; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:21:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:21:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980203181245.0152dc7c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:12:45 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Control conference session devoted to Dr. Robert Bass' achievements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rqiEp1.0.or3.WPwrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15693 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear vorts: It is a pleasure to bring to your attention the fact that our Robert Bass has achieved such distinguished milestones in control theory that there is an entire session at the ACC conference devoted to his studies. Well done, Bob. Mitchell Swartz < ============================================================= The 1998 American Control Conference 24-26 June, 1998 The Adam Mark Hotel Philadephia, PA ACC Home Page website 0000,0000,fefehttp://www.rpi.edu/~bequeb/ACC98 0000,0000,fefehttp://www.ece.nwu.edu/~cdc/acc98/sessions/WA16 Session WA16 (Wednesday, June 24) The influence of Bob Bass in mathematical system theory Chair: Johnson, C.D. /Univ. of Alabama at Huntsville Chair: Morgan, Jr., Bernard S. / Teledyne Brown Engineering 10:00 Looking back 43 years: the critical period in the development of mathematical system theory and the impetus of ideas of R. W. Bass on Math. Systems Kalman, R. E. / ETH Swiss Fed. Inst. of Tech. 10:20 Seminal contributions of Bob Bass to control Bucy, R. S. / Univ. of Southern California Lo, J.T. / Univ. of Maryland 10:40 Robustness analysis: from Bass (1956) through 1998 Doyle, John C. / California Inst. of Tech. 11:00 Sensitivity of control computations Hewer, Gary / Naval Air Warfare Center Kenney, C. / Univ. of California at Santa Barbara Laub, Alan J. / Univ. of California at Davis 11:20 R.W. Bass: mathematician/mentor Schwartz, Larry / Hughes Aircraft Corp MS Sans Serif11:40 Some little-known results of Bob Bass in mathematical system theory Johnson, C. D. / Univ. of Alabama at Huntsville Morgan, Jr, Bernard S. / Teledyne Brown Eng., Huntsville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 17:28:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05358; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:22:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:22:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD632 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Banked Curves&Orbital Velocities Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:20:20 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"nLVny1.0.eJ1.3Byrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15695 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike I am currently taking a course in general relativity at Montana State University. I would be interested in knowing more about your project Hank Scudder > ---------- > From: Mike McDonald[SMTP:McDonalM asms1X.dsc.k12.ar.us] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, February 02, 1998 5:34 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Banked Curves&Orbital Velocities > > I'm currently involved in research relating banked curve velocities > to orbital velocities. This mathematically comes from the assumption > of gravitational distortion and an imaginary tangential plane at any > point. > > If anyone has any input, please email me. > > > What did the Narcissist say to Einstein??? ME=MC^2 > Micheal P. McDonald > Arkansas School for Mathematics and Sciences > Rm. 1324 100 Whittington Avenue > Hot Springs, AR 71901 > McDonalM ASMS1x.dsc.k12.ar.us > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 17:28:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21441; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:20:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:20:03 -0800 From: "Paul Brown" To: Cc: Subject: Fw: Radium Chloride Wanted. Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:19:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd310a$ebaa9160$e2a89bcf isonix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JirBU3.0.iE5.09yrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Paul Brown To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Radium Chloride Wanted. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dave >To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz >Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 5:52 PM >Subject: Radium Chloride Wanted. > > >>Where can Radium Chloride be purchased from? >> >>Dave. >> >It requires a license. Depending upon where you live, the license is either >issued by the State Health Department or the NRC (National Regulatory >Commission). The rules have changed in this country greatly since the 1930's >when radium chloride was used in luminous paints as well as medicinal uses. >Today, it is highly controlled and very hard to get ahold of. One of the >conditions of the license is that you provide financial assurance or a bond >for the disposal costs involved relative to your possession of the material. > >Radium is also a Radon generator. The first daughter product is radon which >is a gas and easily inhaled. With a 1600 year half-life, your body burden >with radium is very high. That is, you will keep it with you for a very long >time. I am not saying that radium can not be handled safely, just that the >potential for harm is substantial. I reccomend further investigation into >the claims before anyone goes out and tries to get radium. > >A further factor is the costs involved. Radium is very expensive in any >quantity. It takes some 40 tons of uranium ore to yield only one gram of >pure radium metal. Radium chloride is much cheaper to produce but still >costs about $30,000 per gram. > >I can provide a great many more details, if it is of value. I just wanted to >post the warning before anyone goes and hurts themselves. My experience and >life work has been with the conversion of radioactive decay to electricity. >This is something that I know-handling of radioactive materials. > >Paul Brown > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 18:02:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12971; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:56:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:56:20 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: For electron tubes, medical, imaging, x-ray, CW microwave, radar, broadcast & p Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:38:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd310d$a068cac0$d7a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD30D2.F409F2C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"olL_73.0.VA3._gyrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD30D2.F409F2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 =20 Phototubes Richardson Electronics, Ltd. is the leading manufacturer of gas and = vacuum phototubes in the U.S.. Richardson's technical and manufacturing = competence is reflected by the broad spectrum of devices available for = industrial or military specifications. These devices are available with = S1, S4, S5, S10 and bialkali photocathodes. =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 =20 Quote RELL Home Catalog Locations Feedback Search Employment =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =A9 Copyright 1996, Richardson Electronics, Ltd.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD30D2.F409F2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For electron tubes, medical, imaging, = x-ray, CW microwave, radar, broadcast & pulse power = products
 

3D"Electron =


3D"Industrial

Phototubes

Richardson Electronics, Ltd. is the leading manufacturer of = gas=20 and vacuum phototubes in the U.S.. Richardson's technical = and=20 manufacturing competence is reflected by the broad spectrum = of=20 devices available for industrial or military specifications. = These=20 devices are available with S1, S4, S5, S10 and bialkali=20 photocathodes.

3D1-800-348-5580
3DQuote 3D"RELL 3DLocations=20 3DFeedback 3DSearch 3DSearch=20
Quote = RELL Home = Catalog Locations=20 Feedback = Search = Employment=20

© = Copyright=20 1996, Richardson Electronics, Ltd.=20
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BD30D2.F409F2C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 18:03:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01270; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:54:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:54:55 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Vacuum Phototubes and Photomultipliers Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:25:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd310b$cfe2f200$d7a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD30D4.A8E4AA40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"AnVWN3.0.kJ.kfyrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD30D4.A8E4AA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vacuum Phototubes and Photomultipliers -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- A vacuum phototube is a type of photoelectric detector made of a = cylindrical shaped cathode and a wire anode encased in a transparent = evacuated envelope. The cathode is coated with a photoemissive material = that emits electrons when it is irradiated. When a potential is applied = accross the elecrodes, the electrons flow to the anode producing a = photocurrent which is easily amplified. As the current is increased a = greater fraction of the electrons will reach the anode until the = saturation potential is reached. At this point the current becomes = independent of potential and is directly proportional to the radiant = power. The photomultiplier works similarly to the vacuum phototube. This device = contains additional electrodes called dynodes each at a potential = greater than the previous dynode. The potential must be greater that the = saturation potential. When the cathode is irradiated, electrons are = emitted and are accelerated toward the first dynode which is at a = greater potential. Upon striking the first dynode, more electrons are = emitted and accelerated towards the second dynode which is at a greater = potential than dynode 1. This is continued until the cascade is finally = collected at the anode and the resultant current is amplified. With a = photomultiplier tube consisting of 9 dynodes there can be 10^6 to 10^7 = electrons formed for each photon. There are three main characteristics of the photomultiplier tube. They = are sensitivity, gain and risetime. Sensitivity is directly related to = the type of emissive material coated on the cathode. There are four = general types of photocathodes. The first is the highly sensitive which = is of the bialkali types (K-Cs-Sb). The second is the red response which = is of the the multialkali type (N-K-Cs-Sb). These give responses in the = lower energy red region. The third type is the UV response. Any type of = cathode coupled with the appropiate transparent envelope works well for = the ultraviolet region. Fused silica is usually used. The last type is = the flat response which is of the RCA Ga-As series. The second characteristic is gain which is defined by the formula G =3D = delta^n where delta is the average number of electrons ejected at each = dynode and n is the number of dynodes. Gain can be coupled with = sensitivity to calculate the exact magnitude of an electrical output for = a given input giving researchers the means to choose a photomultiplier = specific for a particular experiment. The last characteristic is risetime which is the spread of arrival times = of the avalaunced electrons produced by simultaneously triggered cathode = events. Manufacturers have tried different designs and employed = different techniques to reduce risetimes. Some of these techniques are = using a geometry based on electrostatic focusing, using a high delta = dynode material, imposing high electric field strengths at dynode = surfaces so that the initial velocity distribution of the electrons = becomes less important and using crossed electric and magnetic fields to = eliminate transit time differences due to the speed variations of the = particles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Chemistry 551 Home Page University of Virginia Analytical Chemistry Home = Page=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD30D4.A8E4AA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Vacuum Phototubes and = Photomultipliers
 

Vacuum Phototubes and Photomultipliers

A vacuum phototube is a type of photoelectric detector made of a = cylindrical=20 shaped cathode and a wire anode encased in a transparent evacuated = envelope. The=20 cathode is coated with a photoemissive material that emits electrons = when it is=20 irradiated. When a potential is applied accross the elecrodes, the = electrons=20 flow to the anode producing a photocurrent which is easily amplified. As = the=20 current is increased a greater fraction of the electrons will reach the = anode=20 until the saturation potential is reached. At this point the current = becomes=20 independent of potential and is directly proportional to the radiant = power.

The photomultiplier works similarly to the vacuum phototube. This = device=20 contains additional electrodes called dynodes each at a potential = greater than=20 the previous dynode. The potential must be greater that the saturation=20 potential. When the cathode is irradiated, electrons are emitted and are = accelerated toward the first dynode which is at a greater potential. = Upon=20 striking the first dynode, more electrons are emitted and accelerated = towards=20 the second dynode which is at a greater potential than dynode 1. This is = continued until the cascade is finally collected at the anode and the = resultant=20 current is amplified. With a photomultiplier tube consisting of 9 = dynodes there=20 can be 10^6 to 10^7 electrons formed for each photon.

There are three main characteristics of the photomultiplier tube. = They are=20 sensitivity, gain and risetime. Sensitivity is directly related to the = type of=20 emissive material coated on the cathode. There are four general types of = photocathodes. The first is the highly sensitive which is of the = bialkali types=20 (K-Cs-Sb). The second is the red response which is of the the = multialkali type=20 (N-K-Cs-Sb). These give responses in the lower energy red region. The = third type=20 is the UV response. Any type of cathode coupled with the appropiate = transparent=20 envelope works well for the ultraviolet region. Fused silica is usually = used.=20 The last type is the flat response which is of the RCA Ga-As series.

The second characteristic is gain which is defined by the formula = G =3D=20 delta^n where delta is the average number of electrons = ejected at=20 each dynode and n is the number of dynodes. Gain can be coupled = with=20 sensitivity to calculate the exact magnitude of an electrical output for = a given=20 input giving researchers the means to choose a photomultiplier specific = for a=20 particular experiment.

The last characteristic is risetime which is the spread of arrival = times of=20 the avalaunced electrons produced by simultaneously triggered cathode = events.=20 Manufacturers have tried different designs and employed different = techniques to=20 reduce risetimes. Some of these techniques are using a geometry based on = electrostatic focusing, using a high delta dynode material, imposing = high=20 electric field strengths at dynode surfaces so that the initial velocity = distribution of the electrons becomes less important and using crossed = electric=20 and magnetic fields to eliminate transit time differences due to the = speed=20 variations of the particles.

Chemistry 551 Home Page University of Virginia Analytical Chemistry Home = Page ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD30D4.A8E4AA40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 18:06:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01325; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:55:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:55:04 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: Vacuum Phototube Light Lepton Detector? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:50:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd310f$4da3e8e0$d7a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Cj4LL.0.bK.sfyrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If Anode of a High Vacuum Phototube is made NEGATIVE, then a photocathode should serve as a site for Light Lepton Pair Production under irradiation by light of the required wavelength. The Positive Light Lepton should be attracted to the NEGATIVE ANODE and distinguishable from any stray positive ions. A couple of Vacuum Phototube items have been posted. Who has a vacuum phototube in their stash, and a good electrometer? I'm leaning toward the di-alkali K-Cs-Sb or the tri-alkali Na-K-Cs on Sb photocathode. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 18:09:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03001; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:01:18 -0800 From: "Paul Brown" To: Subject: Re: How to build the Testatica and more.... Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:00:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3110$ad7055a0$e2a89bcf isonix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"C3Ypu.0.lk.jlyrq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >- The complete detail for building the "Testatica" generator and the process explained for converting electrostatic energy into electrodynamic power (by courtesy of Nelson Camus), >All these informations may be found at : >http://members.aol.com/overunity2/nelson/nelson.htm >I hope that this will interest you, >Sincerely, >Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+1 ) > Hi Jean-Louis, Has Nelson Camus actually built this device or is this his theory of operation? Paul Brown From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 18:41:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19776; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:34:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:34:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "vortex-l" Subject: The Phototube Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:28:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3114$a6176560$54a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30D9.F9B88D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kfQSS3.0.nq4.vEzrq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30D9.F9B88D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Phototube The photoelectric cell, or vacuum phototube, has two electrodes: an = anode and a cathode. The anode is a thin nickel wire next to the = cathode. The phototube's cathode is a cylindrical piece of copper or = silver, coated with cesium, sodium, lithium or potassium oxide. The = oxides release electrons when light hits them, allowing electrons (and = current) to flow from the cathode to the anode -- the photovoltaic = effect.=20 The oxide(s) may be sensitive to varying intensities of red light, blue = light or different light frequencies, depending upon the tube's intended = use within a circuit.=20 Inside the gas phototube, the gas ionizes; positive ions neutralize the = space charge, making it more sensitive than the vacuum phototube by = increasing its current. The gas phototube may contain helium, neon or = argon gas.=20 Phototubes were used in light-sensitive applications. They came into = greater use when television and the movie industry began in the 1920s. = In 1927, the Movietone system for "talkies" used photoelectric cells, = enabling sound to come from film. They were later used in TV cameras. = The phototube was a precursor to the solar cell, which converts sunlight = into electricity.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Back to The Tube History Page ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30D9.F9B88D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Phototube
 

The Phototube

The photoelectric cell, or vacuum=20 phototube, has two electrodes: an anode=20 and a cathode. The anode is a thin nickel = wire next to=20 the cathode. The phototube's cathode is a cylindrical piece of copper or = silver,=20 coated with cesium, sodium, lithium or potassium oxide. The oxides = release electrons when light hits them, = allowing=20 electrons (and current) to flow from the cathode to the anode -- the photovoltaic effect.=20

The oxide(s) may be sensitive to varying intensities of red light, = blue light=20 or different light frequencies, depending upon the tube's intended use = within a=20 circuit.=20

Inside the gas phototube, the gas ionizes; positive ions neutralize = the space charge, making it more sensitive = than the=20 vacuum phototube by increasing its current. The gas phototube may = contain=20 helium, neon or argon gas.=20

Phototubes were used in light-sensitive applications. They came into = greater=20 use when television and the movie industry began in the 1920s. In 1927, = the=20 Movietone system for "talkies" used photoelectric cells, = enabling=20 sound to come from film. They were later used in TV cameras. The = phototube was a=20 precursor to the solar cell, which converts sunlight into electricity.=20

Back to The Tube History = Page

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD30D9.F9B88D60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 3 21:28:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13572; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:24:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:24:47 -0800 Message-ID: <34D7FAA3.740F interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 00:20:35 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vacuum Phototube Light Lepton Detector? References: <01bd310f$4da3e8e0$d7a6410c default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wvPuK2.0.-J3.Uk_rq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Who has a vacuum phototube in their stash, and a good > electrometer? > > I'm leaning toward the di-alkali K-Cs-Sb or the tri-alkali > Na-K-Cs on Sb photocathode. > Fred, along with my free supply of darlington transistors, I also received a supply of surplus photomultiplier tubes. Do any of these grab your attention? I have 7 tubes, one of which looks "shopworn". I can only provide the numbers on the tube labels as follows: HAMAMATSU R268-02 5059 AB 12/82 (Mfg date?) Two of these on hand. another R268-02 AC 7781 (This is the shopworn one) One on hand These look just like the HAMAMATSU tubes but there is no name on label: model No. PMT 502-01 Serial Nos. 8422909AD , 843443AD(86), 8434986AD (97) and 8458113AD (95) These 4 on hand. All 7 tubes are painted black, except on the end window and the pin base. The tubes are roughly like: |<-------- 11.3 cm long ---------------->| ________________________________________ __ | | 14 pins __ | < black paint on side wall> | <--clear disk --> __ | | optical __ | | window |________________________________________| about 2.8 cm dia. cylinder There is also a "Genalex" octal-base vac tube - with a top-cap electrode that may have something to do with a power supply for the tubes? A2426 8112 Z Made in England by the M-O Valve Co. Ltd. If any of these look interesting, let me know. My brother-in-law source for these tubes used to work for a lithography outfit. They had some fancy photo-copy equipment and these tubes may have something to do with the old red-yellow-blue color kind of thing. I guess there is no heated filiment in such tubes so they are probably good if their vacuum is good. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 00:11:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28194; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:09:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:09:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Francis J. Stenger" Cc: Subject: Re: Vacuum Phototube Light Lepton Detector? Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3143$4c1d4b40$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"XpmcK2.0.Mu6.S82sq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 10:24 PM Subject: Re: Vacuum Phototube Light Lepton Detector? You Wrote: >> > >Fred, along with my free supply of darlington transistors, I also >received a supply of surplus photomultiplier tubes. Do any of these >grab your attention? They certainly do, Frank. If one could work the biasing between the transparent photocathode and the first dynode in such a way that a LL+ could hit the first dynode with a kinetic energy 1/2*Mr*c^2 equal to a 20 ev proton or helium (or heavier) ion, this should release an electron from the first dynode allowing the rest of the dynodes to multiply as in normal photomultiplier operation, thus giving 5 to 7 orders of magnitude "amplification". I have 7 tubes, one of which looks "shopworn". >I can only provide the numbers on the tube labels as follows: > > HAMAMATSU R268-02 5059 AB 12/82 (Mfg date?) > Two of these on hand. > > another R268-02 AC 7781 (This is the shopworn one) > One on hand > > These look just like > the HAMAMATSU tubes but there is no name on label: > > model No. PMT 502-01 > Serial Nos. 8422909AD , 843443AD(86), 8434986AD (97) > and 8458113AD (95) These 4 on hand. > >All 7 tubes are painted black, except on the end window and the pin >base. The tubes are roughly like: > > |<-------- 11.3 cm long ---------------->| > ________________________________________ > __ | | > 14 pins __ | < black paint on side wall> | <--clear disk > --> __ | | optical > __ | | window > |________________________________________| > about 2.8 cm dia. cylinder The pin-out with 11 pins could be 10 dynodes and a collector anode. I'm not sure. The tie between the photocathode, focusing electrode and first dynode may be capacitive-leakage through the tube walls. I don't know. Need some advice from the initiated on this one.The dynodes should work off a series string resistor voltage divider that gives tens to hundreds of volts per stage to get the required secondary electron emission/stage. > >There is also a "Genalex" octal-base vac tube - with a top-cap electrode >that may have something to do with a power supply for the tubes? > A2426 > 8112 Z > Made in England by the M-O Valve Co. Ltd. > >If any of these look interesting, let me know. They sure do. Can they be back-engineered for seeing if the LL pairs are created in the photocathode? Regards, Frederick > > >Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 06:12:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23039; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:02:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:02:32 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34D864AF.647F711C mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:53:03 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: mass gain References: <01bd310a$ebaa9160$e2a89bcf isonix> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4CBE8C3846B69C727C4DA77A" Resent-Message-ID: <"e_7mv1.0.vd5.qJ7sq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4CBE8C3846B69C727C4DA77A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Brown wrote: [Some good information on radium chloride] --------------4CBE8C3846B69C727C4DA77A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Hi Paul, Your article, "An Alternate Interpretation Of Mass-Gain At Near Light Velocities," Infinite Energy, Vol. 3, No. 13 and No. 14, 1997, pages 52-53, is very interesting. I would like to obtain your articles on this subject which you reference in this article. Can they be obtained online? Jack Smith --------------4CBE8C3846B69C727C4DA77A-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 07:19:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03295; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:16:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:16:21 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Francis J. Stenger" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: Photomultiplier Tubes Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:08:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd317e$c62389a0$eca6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3144.19C4B1A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"V7DFi1.0.Dp._O8sq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3144.19C4B1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 Next: Scintillation Counter System Up: Scintillation Counters Previous: = The Phosphor=20 Photomultiplier Tubes -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- The photomultiplier has a light sensitive electrode called the = photocathode which emits electrons when photons strike it. These = electrons are accelerated by a series of electrodes , called dynodes , = towards a collector (or anode ). The electrons produce several secondary = electrons each time they strike a dynode resulting in a multiplication = of their number as they approach the anode. Fig. shows a = photomultiplier tube. An external resistor chain connected to a stable = power supply is used to produce the voltages which are applied to the = dynodes.=20 =20 Figure: Photomultiplier Tube =20 Typically, each electron which strikes a dynode will produce about = four secondary electrons . This means that if one electron is released = from the photocathode , a phototube with 10 dynodes will deliver = electrons to the collector. This gain, of about one million, is = critically dependent upon the dynode voltages which necessitates a very = stable power supply.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Noel Giffin=20 Tue Feb 6 17:15:32 PST 1996=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3144.19C4B1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Photomultiplier Tubes
 


3Dnext 3Dup 3Dprevious 3Dnext=20
Next: Scintillation Counter System = Up:=20 Scintillation Counters=20 Previous: The = Phosphor=20

Photomultiplier = Tubes

The photomultiplier has a light sensitive electrode called the = photocathode  which emits electrons  when = photons=20 strike it. These electrons are accelerated by a series of electrodes , called dynodes  , towards = a collector=20 (or anode ). The electrons produce several = secondary=20 electrons  each time they strike a dynode = resulting in a=20 multiplication of their number as they approach the anode. Fig. 3Dgif=20 = shows a=20 photomultiplier tube. An external resistor chain connected to a stable = power=20 supply is used to produce the voltages which are applied to the dynodes. =

  3Dfigure292
Figure: = Photomultiplier  Tube  

Typically, each electron  which strikes a = dynode   will produce about four secondary electrons . This means that if one electron is released from = the=20 photocathode , a phototube with 10 dynodes will = deliver=20 3Dtex2html_wrap_inline816 electrons to the collector. This gain, of about one million, = is=20 critically dependent upon the dynode voltages which necessitates a very = stable=20 power supply.=20


Noel Giffin
Tue Feb 6 17:15:32 PST 1996=20
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3144.19C4B1A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 08:08:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10393; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:58:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:58:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Francis J. Stenger" Cc: "vortex-l" Subject: About Cooling Photomultipliers - Products for Research Inc Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:52:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3184$db326900$2091410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD314A.2ED39100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CKMdz3.0.JY2.h09sq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD314A.2ED39100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Products for Research Inc. =20 CONTENTS (HOME) Marked PHOTOCOOL Cross Reference Archive Cross Reference Ambient Housing Cross Reference About PMT Housings=20 TO COOL OR NOT TO COOL Figure 1: Photocathode Dark Current vs. = Temperature Figure 2: Photocathode Responsivity vs. Temperature Figure 3: Cooler Temperature Performance Guide=20 The question is often raised whether or not a cooled photomultiplier = housing is necessary. Armed with certain information, even the casual = user of photomultipliers can answer this question and in fact determine = the optimum operating temperature for the tube in the user's = application.=20 The first bit of information necessary is the spectral = region being observed. This will frequently dictate the tube to be used = or at least minimize the number of choices to be made. All tube = manufacturers publish spectral response curves for the wide variety of = tubes they make, thereby making the photocathode selection fairly = straightforward.=20 =20 The second bit of information required relates to signal = level. Simply stated the question is "Will the expected signal level = exceed the expected dark current at room temperature?" The answer may = come through experiment, past experience, or any of a number of other = sources. Once answered, however, this question leads to the decision to = cool or not to cool.=20 If the choice is to cool, the next question is how much = cooling is the optimum. To answer this, two items must be considered. = The first is the effect of cooling on dark current. The second is the = effect of cooling on spectral response in relation to the region being = observed.=20 =20 =20 Figure 1 gives typical cathode dark current density as a function of = cathode temperature for some of the more common photocathode materials. = To find the approximate anode dark current to be expected, multiply the = current density by the cathode area and then by the overall gain at = which the tube is being run. =20 =20 =20 CATHODE DARK CURRENT DENSITY vs. CATHODE TEMPERATURE Figure 2 or BACK TO TOP Figure 2 is from studies done at Products for Research which show the = effect of cooling on spectral response and give information that will = aid in determining whether a specific amount of cooling will enhance or = degrade a particular region of the spectral response curve. This = information is available on request, and is included in the latest = Catalog. =20 =20 =20 RELATIVE PHOTOCATHODE RESPONSIVITY AS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE Figure 3 or BACK TO TOP Figure 3 is a reference table indicating the approximate typical = temperatures at the photocathode of a tube being cooled by housings in = the various series' of Products for Research PMT coolers. =20 =20 =20 Cooler Temperature Performance Guide with links to POWER Index=20 Typical Cathode Temperature at 20 =B0C Ambient Air or Liquid Cooler Series=20 0 =B0C T.E. Convection=20 -20 =B0C T.E. Air=20 -25 =B0C T.E. Liquid=20 -30 =B0C T.E.Air Econo Multi-Stage=20 -35 =B0C T.E. Liquid Econo Multi-Stage=20 =20 =20 Typical Cathode Temperature at 20 =B0C Ambient Air or Liquid Cooler Series=20 -35 =B0C T.E.Air Multi-Stage=20 -40 =B0C T.E. Liquid Multi-Stage=20 -50 =B0C T.E. Liquid Enhanced Multi-Stage=20 -50 =B0C Compressor=20 -75 =B0C Dry-ice=20 ambient to -100 =B0C LN2=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 BACK TO TOP =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Return to CONTENTS Return to ARCHIVE CROSS REFERENCE=20 Return to Marked, PHOTOCOOL CROSS REFERENCE GUIDE Ambient Housing Cross Reference Return to ABOUT PHOTOMULTIPLIER HOUSINGS e-mail pfr photocool.com =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD314A.2ED39100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About Cooling Photomultipliers - = Products for Research Inc.
 
 =20
3D"PFR=20

Products for Research Inc.
CONTENTS (HOME)
3DCE Marked = PHOTOCOOL
Cross=20 Reference
Archive Cross Reference
Ambient Housing Cross Reference
About PMT Housings

TO COOL OR NOT TO COOL

 Figure 1: Photocathode = Dark=20 Current vs. Temperature
Figure = 2:=20 Photocathode Responsivity vs. Temperature
Figure 3: Cooler Temperature Performance = Guide
The question is often raised = whether or not=20 a cooled photomultiplier housing is necessary. Armed with = certain=20 information, even the casual user of photomultipliers can = answer=20 this question and in fact determine the optimum operating=20 temperature for the tube in the user's application.=20

The first bit of information necessary is the spectral = region=20 being observed. This will frequently dictate the tube to be = used or=20 at least minimize the number of choices to be made. All tube = manufacturers publish spectral response curves for the wide = variety=20 of tubes they make, thereby making the photocathode = selection fairly=20 straightforward.=20

The second bit of information = required=20 relates to signal level. Simply stated the question is = "Will=20 the expected signal level exceed the expected dark current = at room=20 temperature?" The answer may come through experiment, = past=20 experience, or any of a number of other sources. Once = answered,=20 however, this question leads to the decision to cool or not = to cool.=20 =20

If the choice is to cool, the next question is how much = cooling=20 is the optimum. To answer this, two items must be = considered. The=20 first is the effect of cooling on dark current. The second = is the=20 effect of cooling on spectral response in relation to the = region=20 being observed.=20

Figure = 1 gives typical cathode dark current = density as a=20 function of cathode temperature for some of the more common=20 photocathode materials. To find the approximate anode dark = current=20 to be expected, multiply the current density by the cathode = area and=20 then by the overall gain at which the tube is being run.


CATHODE DARK CURRENT DENSITY vs. CATHODE=20 TEMPERATURE

3D"Graph

Figure 2 or BACK TO=20 TOP



Figure 2=20 is from studies done at Products for = Research=20 which show the effect of cooling on spectral response and = give=20 information that will aid in determining whether a specific = amount=20 of cooling will enhance or degrade a particular region of = the=20 spectral response curve. This information is available on = request,=20 and is included in the latest Catalog.


RELATIVE PHOTOCATHODE RESPONSIVITY AS A FUNCTION OF=20 TEMPERATURE

3D"Graph

Figure 3 or BACK TO=20 TOP



Figure 3=20 is a reference table indicating the approximate typical=20 temperatures at the photocathode of a tube being cooled by = housings=20 in the various series' of Products for = Research PMT=20 coolers.

Cooler Temperature = Performance=20 Guide with links to POWER Index
Typical Cathode Temperature
at 20 °C = Ambient=20 Air or Liquid		 Cooler Series
0 °C T.E.=20 Convection
-20 °C T.E.=20 Air
-25 °C T.E.=20 Liquid
-30 °C T.E.Air = Econo=20 Multi-Stage
-35 °C T.E. Liquid = Econo=20 Multi-Stage
   

 
Typical Cathode Temperature
at 20 °C = Ambient=20 Air or Liquid		 Cooler Series
-35 °C T.E.Air=20 Multi-Stage
-40 °C T.E. Liquid=20 Multi-Stage
-50 °C T.E. Liquid = Enhanced=20 Multi-Stage
-50 °C Compressor
-75 °C Dry-ice
ambient to -100=20 °C LN2
=




BACK=20 TO TOP

 

3D"NEW

 

3D"PFR=20 Return=20 to CONTENTS
Return to = ARCHIVE CROSS=20 REFERENCE
Return to 3DCE=20 Marked, PHOTOCOOL CROSS = REFERENCE=20 GUIDE
Ambient Housing Cross=20 Reference
Return to = ABOUT=20 PHOTOMULTIPLIER HOUSINGS
e-mail pfr@photocool.com
3D"PFR =
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD314A.2ED39100-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 08:14:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12809; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:11:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:11:40 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:05:50 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Testatika and Overunity..... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"fi1eH1.0.183.sC9sq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear All, You will find in my web site, two very interesting documents written by Cyril Smith: The first document is about "Testatika and Overunity" at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/testacmt.htm The second document is about the "Magnetic paradox" solution detailled at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/mpsolved.htm I think that this will interest you, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin 02/04/98 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 10:25:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05028; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:21:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:21:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D8B165.34BC interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 13:20:21 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vacuum Phototube Light Lepton Detector? References: <01bd3143$4c1d4b40$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"amM-Q1.0.TE1.g6Bsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > (snip photomultiplier list, etc.) > The pin-out with 11 pins could be 10 dynodes > and a collector anode. I'm not sure. The tie > between the photocathode, focusing electrode > and first dynode may be capacitive-leakage through the tube walls. I don't > know. > > Need some advice from the initiated on this one.The dynodes should work off > a series string resistor voltage divider that gives tens to hundreds of > volts per stage to get the required secondary electron emission/stage. > More details on the PM tubes, Fred. The one I called "shopworn" I see had been partially scraped clean on the outside. The base pin assembly is a 15 pin circle with one of the pins snipped off on the outside (enough sticks out to touch with a probe). I also see a fine, partial crack in the tube wall - probably the reason the tube went bad. Considering the envelope structure of the tube first: 1. There's the 15 pin base with the pins plus the vacuum tit - one pin snipped off externally. 2. The window end is a nice "optical" looking disk window that could be fused into the body cylinder. This makes me wonder if the window is a "special" glass with selected transmission qualities? 3. Starting at the window end, the INSIDE of the envelope is silvered or aluminized in a cylindrical band for a distance of 3 cm from the window. Now for the pinout I can see so far. I'll lay the pins out straight, look at the pin end of the tube, and go clockwise from the snipped off pin:(I have removed the glass envelope at this stage.) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ snipped| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 pin 13: This pin has a lead inside the tube that extends to the first structure in the window end of the tube. This structure is a cupped disk 1 inch in dia (This Japanese designer was educated at MIT before the metric conversion?) with a cup side 5mm high - concave toward the window, ~2 cm from the window. So, pin 13 contacts this disk and, there's a sneaky little wire dressed along the OUTSIDE of the envelope, under the black covering, connected to pin 13 externally and ending on the outside surface with about a 2 cm overlap of the internal silvering. The disk structure has spring clips that appear to support the window end of the dynode assembly and make contact with the internal silvering. pins 1 and the snipped-off pin seem to dress up to a tiny "gettering" kind of bead inside the disk structure on the window side (inside the shallow cup) and off to one side of what must be the rectangular "view port" for the photons. This port is about 10 mm by 8 mm. Just thru the open "port" a photon would first pass thru a metal grid and then hit the curved inside of what must be the photocathode. Imagine you're sitting in the seat of a front-end loader with a 1/4 cylinder scoop bucket mounted. Now, if the cutter-edge of the bucket were on the ground, imagine a horizontal grid covering the top of the 1/4 cylinder. If it were raining, the drops would pass thru the grid and splash off of the inside 1/4 cyl. wall and go outward in front of the bucket. The rain is photons - the splash is electrons. This electrode is hooked to: >>> pin 14 pin 12 must be the first dynode 1/4 cyl. bucket. pin 2 = the 2nd dynode. pin 11 = dynode 3 pin 3 = dynode 4 pin 10 = dynode 5 pin 4 = dynode 6 pin 9 = dynode 7 and what looks like another gettering disk. Also, pin 9 connects with what seems to be a U-shaped metal shield around the bottom and two sides of the lower dynodes (8 & 9) and the collector anode. pin 5 = dynode 8 pin 8 = dynode 9 pin 6 is connected to a tub-shaped electrode with the open side down toward the pins - maybe this should be thought of as the final dynode 10? This tub-shaped electrode has a rectangular hole (port) similar to the window-end photon port. Just inside this tub window there is a "collector grid" (anode?) connected to: pin 7. I just noticed that the tub has a cover across the bottom and the pin 7 lead dresses thru a small ceramic(?) bushing thru this cover. So, the final collector grid is really inside the tub volume - I suppose in a low-electric-field region? This end of the tube seems a bit electrostatically complex and I don't understand all the details. I pulled dynode 9 out of the array and could then see that ALL the dynodes have a grid on the ENTRANCE side of the dynode. I suppose this shapes the electric field between dynodes for a uniform spred of accelerated electrons. One strange thing, Fred - all the intact tubes seem to have a faint "amber" color when you look into the window end. The damaged tube seemed clear thru the window (before I smashed it apart to take a look). Could the good tubes contain some "gas" or, perhaps, there was some faint amber surface coat that was removed after exposure to air? All pins present and accounted for, Fred! I posted this detail to Vortex but I will go off-list for any further stuff like this unless there is a wide interest in such! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 10:55:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12614; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:53:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:53:34 -0800 From: Chuck Davis To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: mind-l aquathought.com, rife-list@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:53:39 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: HandHeld Hall Device Magnetometer? (typos edited) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"pXQnb2.0.q43.gaBsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm looking for such a device and my catalog do _not_ appear to show one. Is there such a URL or catalog, to which one can steer me? Thanx, -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 11:02:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08104; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:44:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:44:13 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Davis To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: mind-l aquathought.com, rife-list@eskimo.com Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 10:43:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: HandHeld Hall Device Magnetometer? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"RQwc02.0.M-1.rRBsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm lookig for such a device and my catalog do appear to show one. Is there a URL or catalog, to which one can steer me? Thanx, -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 11:22:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18077; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:17:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:17:12 -0800 From: tv juno.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:15:16 -0800 Subject: radioactive testatika Message-ID: <19980204.111518.3398.2.tv juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7-8,10-11,13-14,17-21 Resent-Message-ID: <"vu9JZ1.0.2Q4.qwBsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It maybe dangerous, but I am quite sure the Nelson Camus' explanation for the testatika of putting Ra inside capacitor could be made to work in a high voltage oscillating circuit. As the radioactive capacitors would become charged, the alpha emissions would start to depolarize the dielectric which would decrease the dielectric constant. This would have the same effect as pulling the capacitor plates apart while they are charged which requires work and would add energy to the circuit. I have heard a rumor that one visitor smuggled a miniature russian geiger counter with him to see a demonstration of testatika. It was hot ! Also, where else might one be able find old stocks of glow in the dark watch dial paint than Switzerland ! However, in order to get that much power from radium seems anomolous to me in any case just based on simple "particle power" calculations from the CRC physics and chemistry handbook. Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 12:42:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10700; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:39:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:39:20 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: HandHeld Hall Device Magnetometer? Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:29:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd31ab$9c212b30$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_du381.0.3d2.r7Dsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Chuck, A portable Hall effect digital gaussmeter with axial and transverse probes is available for $210 from: Alphalab Inc. 1280 South 300 West Salt Lake City, UT 84101 Call them for a free catalog 1-800-769-3754 or 801-487-9492 George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 13:10:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01124; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:53:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:53:28 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Davis To: George Holz Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:52:11 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <01bd31ab$9c212b30$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: HandHeld Hall Device Magnetometer? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"TGRuC.0.OH.0LDsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 04-Feb-98, George Holz wrote: >Hi Chuck, >A portable Hall effect digital gaussmeter with axial and >transverse probes is available for $210 from: >Alphalab Inc. >1280 South 300 West >Salt Lake City, UT 84101 >Call them for a free catalog >1-800-769-3754 or 801-487-9492 >George Holz george varisys.com >Varitronics Systems Thanx, George, I'll give you a call, shortly :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 4 21:18:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21991; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:02:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:02:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D943F9.388D t-link.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:45:45 -1000 From: Alastair Couper Reply-To: aquarius t-link, net@t-link.net Organization: aquarian electronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Plasma tube experiment References: <199802031317.FAA11517 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OpJhY.0.XN5.hVKsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings All, This is an initial posting. I have been working with the Hodowanec/ Brown Gravity Wave measuring phenomena for the last few years. Some of you have seen my results at http://www.t-link.net/~aquarius/aquarian.htm. In the last short while people (Quinney for one) have independantly ask me about directional gravity detectors. The capacitor style sensor seems not to be at all directional, as though it were actually measuring a scalar value. I am at the moment looking at an interesting plasma tube, and am needing some ideas about how it works. It would seem to fit the bill for a true non-mechanical gravity direction device. The tube is oval in shape, about 1" diameter, 3" long, with standard neon sign type electrodes at the ends of the long axis. It is filled with a high pressure of argon, about 200 torr. (Neon also shows the effects.) As one increases the pressure in a plasma tube, the beam of light starts out diffuse as in a familiar neon sign, but eventually comes to form a very dense thread of light, in this case concentrated to about .1" across or less. The thread of light does not follow a straight line from electrode to electrode, but curves upward to within .25" of the glass and then back down, forming a smoothly arching path. If the tube is held with the long axis horizontal, and rotated about this axis (ie rotated about the electrodes) the arc will always counter-rotate to remain at the top of the tube. A telling sign is that, if allowed to sit for a minute, the glass at the top of the tube nearest the arc is warm, due I'd guess to dielectric losses, while the glass on the bottom is cool. It appears to be that the densely packed arc is hotter than the remainder of the gas in the tube, and so rises. If the tube is moved side to side, the gases inside slosh back and forth with the consistency of water, clearly showing inertial effects. The heavier gas at the bottom of the tube lags behind the sidewards motion, and the lighter gas in the arc is therefore forced to actually lead the sidewards motion. One question: what would likely be the percentage of gas actually participating in the light producing arc, and what percentage is just along for the ride? Could the resonant frquency of the sloshing effect noted be used to indicate that ratio? (Like a pendulum.) What would be the temperature difference between the lit and unlit gas? Another question: is this useful? What say? Reagards, Alastair Couper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 04:36:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA10568; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 04:27:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 04:27:25 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34D99FD9.6C1350EE mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 06:17:45 -0500 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 1.2.13 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: filaments at BLP References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980130081952.00867410@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"TSKs_1.0.0b2.h0Rsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To those who are following Scott's BLP experiments: The following are excerpts from some files currently on the BLP web site in which filaments are discussed. Jack Smith ureport.html, line 37: Tests for heat production associated with hydrino formation were carried out with two types of calorimeters during the period October-December 1996. Experiments carried out in a modified Calvet system yielded extremely exciting results. Specifically, initial results are apparently completely consistent with the Mills' Hydrino formation hypothesis. In three separate trials between 10 and 20 K Joules were generated at a rate of 0.5 Watts, upon the admission of approximately 10-3 moles of hydrogen to the 20cm3 Calvet cell containing a heated platinum FILAMENT and KNO3 powder. ... INTRODUCTION: Experiments were conducted to test the hypothesis that in the gas phase potassium ions will catalyze the conversion of hydrogen atoms to hydrino atoms. These experiments were initially carried out in a Calvet cell as this type of calorimeter is highly sensitive and accurate. Moreover, the conditions of the calorimeter are controlled. RM's theory of hydrino formation requires that both K+ ions and H-atoms are present in the gas phase. In order to generate gaseous K+ ions, KNO3 is placed in a small (2cc) quartz 'boat' inside the calorimeter cell. The boat is heated, to increase the vapor concentration of KNO3, with a platinum FILAMENT, which is wound around the boat. A second function of the platinum FILAMENT is to generate H-atoms. ... Reaction cell. For these experiments the top of the calorimeter cup/reactor cell was fitted with a Conflat knife edge flange. The top element of the flange is connected to a gas supply system outside the convection oven with a 0.5 cm OD ss tube, and with two welded vacuum high current copper feedthroughs. The feedthroughs were connected on the cup side of the flange to a coiled section of 0.25 mm platinum wire approximately 18 cm in length. Fitted inside the coiled platinum was a small quartz boat into which 200 mg of powdered KN03 were placed. ... Control Studies. Helium was admitted, approximately 10 psig, to the cell to test the impact of a change in pressure, and heat transfer characteristics on the response of the cell. The helium was admitted after the cell had been isolated from the pump for a considerable time and a steady pressure (approximately 100 Torr) achieved. As can be seen in http:blacklightpower.com/cgi/byteserver.pl/ufigure2a.pdf, the response was a short-lived small increase in output signal, followed by a relatively short time period during which the signal gradually returns to the original baseline. Within an hour the signal returned to the original baseline, with some drift evident. The response of the system is expected. The helium increases the rate of heat transfer away from the platinum FILAMENT and heated boat. ... Hydrogen Admission. Hydrogen admission was carried out in much the same fashion as helium admission. The cell reached an equilibrium pressure, approximately 100 Torr, and then hydrogen at 10 psig was admitted to the cell. The valve to the hydrogen source, which was a steel line 4 meters by 0.6 cm OD, was closed off by a valve in front of the regulator during admission. Moreover, it was open for only a couple of seconds in each case. This was done on three separate occasions, and the signal that evolved in response to these three processes is recorded in http:blacklightpower.com/cgi/byteserver.pl/ufigure3.pdf, ufigure4.pdf, and ufigure5.pdf. One other observation recorded was that the pressure decreased gradually over time, such that after about an hour the pressure returned to the original equilibrium pressure of the cell. It must also be noted that the heat production was ended deliberately in all three cases by pumping the system to 5* 10-3 Torr. It is clear 'excess heat' evolution would have continued in all eases if the system had not been evacuated. ... DISCUSSION The evidence presented in this report clearly suggests that an extraordinary phenomenon takes place upon the admission of hydrogen to a cell containing a heated platinum FILAMENT and KNO3. This phenomenon appears to generate a tremendous amount of 'excess' heat. .... tinsight.html, line 471: As of July, 1996, several variants of vapor phase cells have been constructed and operated at HPC and most recently at Penn State University. In most cases, they have consisted of a vessel containing a powered metal FILAMENT to dissociate hydrogen molecules, a compound to produce catalyst atoms at the desired vapor pressure and operating temperature, an attached vacuum pump to provide for initial purging of contaminants and to achieve and maintain the desired operating pressure, and a source of hydrogen gas. For control experiments, provisions may also be included for a non-dissociating heat source (e.g., cartridge heater) in addition to a metal FILAMENT, and provision for introducing neutral gas (e.g., helium) and non-catalytic compounds (e.g., sodium compounds). A recent variant utilizes a metal powder for dissociation of hydrogen molecules in conjunction with an external heater to achieve desired operating conditions. HPC reports that excess power is being observed in all of the vapor phase variants. A brief description of the devices and a summary of recent results is provided in the following subsections. 3.3.1 At-Mar Glass Lamp: A small gas vapor cell referred to by HPC as an At-Mar Glass Lamp is shown in Fig. 3-2. In this device, a vacuum pump is used to evacuate the cell and bake out impurities, then the cell is filled with hydrogen at a low pressure (~1 torr). Hydrogen atoms are produced by dissociation of hydrogen molecules by the high temperature FILAMENT (typically tungsten). A small tube of a catalyst compound (e.g., KNO3) is placed alongside the FILAMENT to serve as a source of catalyst atoms. The device is placed in an insulated container partially filled with water kept at a uniform temperature by a stirring device and brought to an initial equilibrium temperature. Power is applied to the FILAMENT and the temperature of the water is monitored by two thermocouples to determine the rate of increase of water temperature at a constant, measured level of input power. The cell heating coefficient (T/t/Power, deg C/Watt-second) is determined for a set of control cases for comparison with cases where conditions supporting low energy hydrogen production are present. For some of the runs, the internal surface of the quartz tube was plated with silver to reduce radiant heat loss and thus increase the operating temperature of the cell. HPC has conducted a series of experiments using the At-Mar Glass Lamp device to investigate the production of excess energy. A set of control cases were operated with hydrogen and power to the FILAMENT, and compared with a set of active cases in which a potassium catalyst compound was added. The results are shown in Fig.3-3. A considerable scatter in the results is present, with average values for the heating coefficient (10-4 deg C/Watt-second) of 1.91 (+ or -) 0.19 for the control cases and 2.37 (+ or -) 0.35 for the active cases. Calculating the excess power ratio as the ratio of the heating coefficient for the active cases over the control cases, excess power would be about 20% of input, or about 2 watts on average. 3.3.2 Isothermal Calorimeter: A schematic diagram for a larger (2.5 liter volume) HPC vapor phase cell operating on the same principle as the At-Mar Glass lamp, and designated the Isothermal Calorimeter is shown in Figure 3-4. The Isothermal Calorimeter Cell has been operated in a combination of control and active experiments to study the effect of key parameters (i.e., presence of catalyst and hydrogen gas, means for dissociation of hydrogen molecules). In a typical experiment, the vessel is pumped down and baked out to remove contaminants, then the desired conditions are established and the temperature is monitored until equilibrium is reached. For example, a control experiment might use the cartridge heater instead of the FILAMENT to heat the vessel without dissociation of hydrogen gas. A series of experiments reaching equilibrium at about the same temperature was conducted with various combinations of the key parameters, while noting the input power required to achieve the target temperature. Assuming the heat loss from the cell is the same in all cases, the excess power generated in the cell would be the difference between the input power in the control cases and the input power in an active case. Data from a series of runs performed at HPC during June, 1996 at 260 to 290 deg C were analyzed assuming vessel heat loss is linearly proportional to indicated temperature, with results as shown in Figures 3-5a and 3-5b. tinsight.html, line 571: Another concept pursued by HPC involves the use of hydrided metal as a hydrogen source (Figure 3-7). In these devices, nickel wire which had been used as a cathode in an electrolytic cell is used as a FILAMENT in a gas cell. The nickel wire is wrapped around a quartz tube or alumina rod mandrel, electrical leads are attached, and the assembly is placed inside a larger quartz tube. The larger tube is epoxied into a large water container, the ends are sealed, the larger tube is evacuated, and power is applied to the FILAMENT. As the FILAMENT temperature increases, hydrogen stored in the nickel during earlier electrolytic cell operation is released along with potassium which had plated out or dried on the surface. The released potassium serves as the catalyst in some experiments, while others include additional catalyst compound which is vaporized as the cell reaches operating temperature. The water in the container is stirred as power is applied to the cell, and energy input to the water (output power from the cell) is determined from the rate of temperature rise. Additional control experiments have been conducted to improve the accuracy of the determination of cell output power. HPC reported that early tests which relied on potassium plated out on the nickel wire as the source of catalyst atoms were erratic in their performance, and it was concluded that a separate source of catalyst should be added to the cell. Thus a quartz capillary containing a catalyst compound was placed inside the inner quartz tube for a series of tests. Testing of the nickel hydride gas cell concept was conducted by varying input power over a range of approximately 400 to 800 watts. For these runs, measured excess power ranged from 40 to 120 watts (6 to 17% of input power). A test series was begun in late July using two metal hydride cells and conducting multiple tests with a range of configurations and results as shown in the following table (tab31.gif): Based on earlier test results, HPC had thought the increased power from the metal hydride cells may have been a result of a disproportionation reaction supported by hydrino atoms produced in the electrolytic cell and released from the nickel wire upon heatup. However, the production of excess heat in number 3 above indicates that the dominant mechanism is from the catalysis of hydrogen atoms released by the FILAMENT, since no hydrinos would have been present in the FILAMENT taken from a Na2CO3 electrolytic cell. HPC believes their earlier gas cells were limited by the hydrogen atom densities in the cells, and have evolved their devices to provide adequate hydrogen atom density. They feel that current results are being limited by catalyst atom density, and are directing device design and operation to address this limit. tinsight.html, line 1135: The Metal Hydride Cell has produced the highest power and the highest power density of any of the approaches to date. Measurements of cell pressure response as power is applied to the FILAMENT has confirmed the effectiveness of the hydrided wire as a source of hydrogen. This approach is an effective means for obtaining adequate hydrogen atom concentrations for testing and also for improving the understanding of the reaction process. It would not be a preferred process for general commercial application because of limits on the amount of hydrogen that can be stored and the resulting need to periodically replace metal hydride components as opposed to a CONTINUOUS FEED of hydrogen gas, and it could also exhibit performance degradation as the stored hydrogen is depleted. However, it could have commercial potential in limited operation situations such as backup power applications. In the near term, it could serve an important role as a means of providing a convincing demonstration of excess power production. The results produced in August, as summarized in Table 3-1, were recast in a format similar to the Isothermal Calorimeter results of Figure 4-1, and are shown in Figure 4-2. The correlation of excess heat production with conditions required by the HPC theory, and the magnitude of the excess heat production present a particularly strong case for validation of the theoretical predictions of energy release. 3.3.5 Tungsten Powder Cell: Another gas cell concept being pursued by HPC is the use of tungsten powder rather than a tungsten FILAMENT for hydrogen dissociation. In this concept, as depicted in schematic form in Fig. 3-8, the reaction chamber is a quartz tube containing tungsten powder and a catalyst compound. The tube is surrounded by a heating FILAMENT to achieve the required temperatures to dissociate hydrogen on the tungsten. The Tungsten Powder Cell is being developed as a means of obtaining high hydrogen atom concentration throughout the reaction cell volume. The tungsten powder provides a large surface area which can serve to dissociate hydrogen molecules when operating at elevated temperatures. Initial results were reported by HPC as indicating about 10 watts of excess power (about 10% of input power) from the device illustrated in Fig. 3-8 using 2.1 cubic centimeters of tungsten powder and operating at about 550 deg C. This concept is at a very early stage of development, and significant refinements and revisions to the device can be expected. For example, the initial device allowed communication between the outer region containing the heating element and the inner region containing the tungsten powder and catalyst compound. This raises a question as to where the reaction is taking place, since hydrogen around the FILAMENT will be dissociating and catalyst atoms could be present in the outer region. The device is being modified to seal off the inner region and provide a hydrogen and catalyst supply directly to the tungsten powder section of the inner region. With vibratory compacted powder as currently used, diffusion of hydrogen molecules and atoms, and of catalyst atoms through the powder may limit the power density. However, the use of a dispersed high surface area matrix of material which supports hydrogen dissociation when operated at elevated temperature is a likely avenue for development of an energy cell which could operate at sufficient power density and without electrical input to support commercial applications. comphist.html, line 122: As hydrogen atoms are normally found bound together as molecules, the Company uses a hot tungsten FILAMENT to break hydrogen molecules into individual hydrogen atoms. A vaporized inorganic catalyst then causes the normal hydrogen atoms to collapse to smaller than normal hydrogen atoms by stimulating their electrons to fall to smaller radii around the nucleus. introbkg.html, line 26: Take a small vacuum-tight metal container with an electrical FILAMENT suspended inside, add a gram or so of a common chemical compound, heat to about 250 degrees (Centigrade, that is), pump down to a near vacuum, turn on the FILAMENT, add a small amount of hydrogen, and what do you get? If you know what you're doing, you can get an energy release 1000 times greater than you would get from burning the hydrogen, a clean and limitless source of power, introbkg.html, line 82: Sun In A Can: A look inside an experimental BlackLight Power gas cell is surprising because of its simplicity. Like a metal light bulb, the stainless steel vessel contains little more than a FILAMENT that is heated to begin the process. A small amount of powdered catalyst is placed in the cell, which is put under vacuum. Other impressive features of the process are its safety and characteristic lack of harmful byproducts or emissions. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 07:12:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19932; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:04:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:04:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34D9D0B8.A16 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:46:16 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: filaments at BLP References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980130081952.00867410@mail.eden.com> <34D99FD9.6C1350EE@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EFaJj2.0.It4.fJTsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Taylor J. Smith wrote: > > To those who are following Scott's BLP experiments: > > The following are excerpts from some files currently > on the BLP web site in which filaments are discussed. > > Jack Smith > (snip interesting and confusing stuff) Thanks for the post, Jack! It strikes me that BLP has mastered the art of "confusing protocol". If these are the ways they achieve excess energy, then Scott should be able to reproduce! He can wander around as well as they can. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 09:24:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18188; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:11:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:11:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D9E50B.46AB earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:12:59 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Gleeson: Murray: Bass: simple Zr cell gives transmutations Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"3dmC92.0.1S4.-AVsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by ukraine.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA21344 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:11:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from smap localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA00346; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:10:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from intrepid-240.fuse.net(208.16.149.240) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029932; Thu Feb 5 10:08:27 1998 From: "Stan Gleeson" To: , , , , , , , , <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <76002.1473@compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , Subject: Re: Bass: simple Zr cell gives transmutations Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:04:55 -0600 Message-ID: <01bd3258$2ea4b920$f09510d0 cincygrp.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Bob, Rich and all. To answer your questions I went to the Corning Co. at www.corninglabware.com and I also talked to the Lab there myself. The makeup of Pyrex is Si02 80.6%-B203 13%-Na20 4.1%-Al203 2.3% The people that I talked to there assured me that boiling water will leach zero PPB from a Pyrex beaker. Even if they don't know what they are talking about. It would be reasonable to expect the major 'leach' product to be Si, that was not the case. As for the instrument used for this analysis, it is a Perkin Elmer Optima 3000XL ICP Optical Emissions Spectrometer. This instrument is calibrated and used daily for analysis of samples for state and Federal Governments. The PPM numbers given in this report are only the numbers that the operator of the instrument was sure of and they are well above the detection limits of the instrument. There is only one exception, that being the Ag. There is a Zr line that may interfere. For the question about 'lab dust' I would say that since the beakers were all in the same place, and the processed samples had steam coming out of the beakers it would seem that there would more 'lab dust' in the before than the processed. Best regards, Stan P.S. Polycarbonate is (COOC6H5C(CH3)2C6H5O)n. -----Original Message----- From: Rich Murray To: rmforall earthlink.net ; ell@lanl.gov ; Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com ; sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp ; knuke@aa.net ; jdunn@ctc.org ; bakealamos@juno.com ; Schaffer@gav.gat.com ; 76570.2270 compuserve.com <76570.2270@compuserve.com>; barry@math.ucla.edu ; mikec@snip.net ; mica@world.std.com ; little@eden.com ; puthoff@aol.com ; peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro ; jchampion transmutation.com ; aki. ix.netcom.com ; claytor_t_n@lanl.gov ; dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu ; g-miley uiuc.edu ; mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp ; ceti@msn.com ; design73 aol.com ; mconnolly@grainsystems.com ; mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov ; bhorst loc1.tandem.com ; wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov ; mike_mckubre qm.sri.com ; sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su ; shellied sage.dri.edu ; droege@fnal.gov ; tchubb@aol.com ; chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil ; yekim physics.purdue.edu ; jaeger@eneco-usa.com ; cincygrp@ix.netcom.com ; nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil ; jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu ; simonb@post.queensu.ca ; norm.olson pnl.gov ; miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp ; shkedi@bose.com ; z@ccyber.com ; ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu ; 76002.1473 compuserve.com <76002.1473@compuserve.com>; wolfy2@erols.com ; rwall@ix.netcom.com ; zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil ; kirk.shanahan@srs.gov ; schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il ; blue@pilot.msu.edu ; sejones physics1.byu.edu ; terry4@llnl.gov ; rbrtbass@pahrump.com ; wireless amigo.net Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 5:43 PM Subject: Bass: simple Zr cell gives transmutations >Feb. 4, 1998 [Comments by Rich Murray: How much leaching of >impurities from the glass beaker and the polycarbonate separator would >occur during the 30 minute run, with 25 minutes of boiling? The >Unprocessed solution had 3.19 ppm Si, due to the added Na2SiO3, while >the Processed solution had 3.11 ppm Si, a loss of 3 %. Was Si added to >the surface of the glass beaker or the Zr electrodes by the run, or lost >as sediments? How about tests on the performance of ICP MS with >precisely known complex solutions? Were more than one ICP MS data runs >made on the Unprocessed and Processed solutions, to check the >reliability of the measurement? How much would laboratory dust settling >out of the air add impurities?] > >Subject: LENT: W => Ag, Fe, Ba, Sn, Cr, etc.!!! > Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:55:57 -0800 > From: "Robert Bass" > To: "David Goodstein" > CC: "Douglas Morrison" > >David Goodstein >Prof. of Physics >Caltech > cc: Douglas R. O. Morrison, CERN > >Dear Dr. Goodstein, > Here is a recipe for a "modern alchemy demo" which >can be done trivially in any high-school level lab. It was >published in New Energy News (NEN) newsletter last >month and posted on the Inst. for New Energy (INE) >website by Dr. Patrick Bailey, their President. (Ph.D., MIT), >and I am sending it to you in case anyone at Caltech >would like to try it. > There is only one thing that we would like to >quasi-retract: the "newly created Silver (Ag)" may >_in part_ be a spurious Mass Spectroscopy result >because Ag and Zr can "interfere" so that we >need to have our commercial Mass Spec provider >reconsider the figures regarding Ag. However, >all the other elements seem to have appeared >from "nowhere" under low-energy electrolysis! > Sincerely, > Bob Bass >======================================================= >Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins] > Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics, BYU, 1971-81] >Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending > > Innoventech, Inc. >Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for > Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g. > Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000 > See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/ > >P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739 >Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213; e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com >============================================================ >============================================================ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert Bass >To: Scott Little >Cc: Hal Puthoff ; Stan Gleeson >Date: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 7:42 PM >Subject: LENT: W => Ag, Fe, Ba, Sn, Cr, etc.!!! > >======================================== >Pre-Vu: Embargoed News Release: NOT [yet] FOR PUBLICATION! >============================================ >Scott, > I am "leaking" to you (by permission of the CG) an "advance >copy" of Stan's new Protocol for producing assured Transmutation of >Tungsten. > I am going to attach 3 differently formatted versions of this >report: > alchmW01.wpd is a WordPerfect Document. > alchmW01.doc is an MSWord document. > alchmW01.txt is an ASCII text document with fewer than 70 >characters/line. > I will also paste the text-file document below. > Have at it, and let me know if you replicate and confirm or >disconfirm the CG's claim of LENT of Tungsten! >============================================ > >LENT: Tungsten into Silver, Iron, Barium, Tin, Chromium, etc > Simple Macroscopic Alchemy Demonstration > Silver Increased by a Factor of 164 Times! > by Robert W. Bass, Ph.D. > >This demonstration of elemental Low Energy Nuclear >Transmutation (LENT) was performed by Stan Gleeson of the >Cincinnati Group (CG) on October 21, 1997. There are 11 items >of required Materials & Equipment, and 13 steps in the Protocol >of the process. > ELEVEN ITEMS of REQUIRED MATERIALS & EQUIPMENT > 1. One piece of Aluminum [Al] 9 inches ["] square & 1" >thick, used as a Heat Sink to prevent excessive boil-off during >electrolysis. >2. Two Zirconium [Zr] Electrodes, each 10" long by 1" wide >by 0.093" thick. The Zr stock used should be of highest purity >available. According to a catalog, the major impurities are >Hafnium and Titanium [Ti]; the Titanium is present at 3000 parts >per billion [ppb] or 3 parts per million [ppm]. The fact that >before-&-after processed solutions showed Ti present at only >0.001 ppm & 0.002 ppm, respectively, is taken to be hard evidence >that during processing only a negligible amount of impurities >leached from the electrodes. Moreover, the catalog-specified >purity of the Zr stock was independently verified by a nationally >recognized commercial quantitative-analysis service provider >(DataChem, Inc.) to have been perfectly correct. The surface of >the electrodes will be covered initially with pickling. The >electrodes must be prepared to have scarred, pickling-free >surfaces 1" down from the top and 3" up from bottom, by grinding >on both sides with a hardened steel rasp (file), and subsequent >rinsing in pure water. >3. One (at least) 520-Watt [W] Alternating Current [AC] >Power Supply capable of Voltage Regulation and able to supply (at >least) up to 1.3 Amperes [A] at 400 Volts [V]. >4. At least 700 milliliters [ml] of pure (distilled) >Water, plus sufficient additional pure water to rinse thoroughly >all beakers, parts, and tools, to minimize contamination [assumed >done]. >5. One 600 ml glass Beaker, 4.5" tall and of 3.5" diameter. >6. Attachable Conducting Leads from the Power Supply to >each Electrode. >7. One gram of pure (reagant grade) Sodium Metasilicate >[SMS], namely Na_2SiO_3. >8. One-half gram of pure (reagant grade) Tungsten [W] >Tri-Oxide, namely WO_3. >9. Standard Stirring & Siphoning tools & extra beakers >for preparing & mixing. >10. Means for external Heating of 400 ml solution to 75 >degrees Centigrade. >11. One piece of clean polycarbonate Separator 5" long by >1" wide by 1/2" thick. > THIRTEEN-STEP PROTOCOL > 1. Prepare a Mother Solution as follows: > 1.1 Begin with 400 ml of pure Water. > 1.2 Add SMS to Water, stir until dissolved. > 1.3 Add Tungsten Tri-Oxide and heat solution to 75 > degrees C while stirring. > 1.4 Let solution settle for one hour. >2. Draw off 10 ml of Mother Solution from the top of the >settled solution, and pour into the 600 ml Beaker half-filled with >300 ml of pure Water, making a 310 ml volume in the Beaker. >3. Insert Electrodes into solution and stir gently. >4. Lay polycarbonate Separator diametrically across mouth >of beaker. >5. Place Electrodes on edge, facing each other & spaced >apart 1" by Separator, such that in a side-view projection only one >electrode's silhouette can be seen, measuring 10" long by 1" wide, >with bottom end near bottom right-hand corner of Beaker's profile, >and with top end's edge resting on upper left-hand corner of >beaker's profile, and with horizontal overhang of the top part of >the Electrode 1.5" beyond the beaker's lip. The purpose of the >projection of the Electrodes beyond the Beaker's lip is to ensure >that no contamination falls into the Beaker during the attachment >of the Conducting Leads from the Power Supply to the Electrodes. >With electrodes in place the solution will rise to about the 350 ml >level of the Beaker. The wetted side-view projection of the part >of an electrode immersed in the solution would consist of a >horizontal line intersected by two parallel lines 1" apart, the >upper being of length 2.25" and the lower being of 2.75" length. >6. Attach Conducting Leads from the Power Supply to the >Electrodes. >7. Place Beaker upon Heat Sink. >8. Measuring time in minutes, adjust AC current Voltage, >measured in V, while observing current flow, measured in milliAmperes >[mA], according to the following schedule, during which the mixture >will begin to boil, and the amount of liquid lost as steam is noted >as Loss in ml: > SCHEDULE >Time [min] Voltage [V] Current [mA] Loss [ml] >0 400 980 >1 403 1200 >2 402 1280 >5 402 1300 [Boiling] >10 406 700 >15 407 605 >20 407 575 50 >25 407 560 100 >30 405 530 125 > 9. Turn off power and disconnect Electrodes. >10. Keeping bottom ends of Electrodes below the surface, >scrape each Electrode's end clean by scraping against each other. >All four 1"-wide faces must be scraped. >11. Remove Electrodes. >12. Note liquid's level at 175 ml, i.e. total loss of 135 >ml of Water to Steam. >13. Add 135 ml of pure Water to bring fluid volume back >to original 310 ml. > RESULTS of QUANTITATIVE ANALYSIS > The before-processed Mother Solution and the after-processed >solution were analyzed by Robert Liversage of DataChem using a >freshly-calibrated ICP. >The symbol U will denote the unprocessed solution, and the >symbol P will denote the processed solution. The increase in >measured quantity of Tungsten [W] is because more of the W got >dissolved as a result of the heat generated during the electrolysis. >The quantitative analysis of U and P will be recorded in ppm, and >the increase-or-decrease difference D = 100.([P/U] - 1) will be in >percentage [%]. Table 1 is complete, and Table 2 is a condensed >summary. (Elements whose D was less than 1,000% in magnitude have >been omitted from Table 2 for clarity.) > TABLE 1 >Element P [ppm] U [ppm] D [%] >Ag 0.0001 0.0164 16,300% >Al 0.009 0.016 78% >B 0.005 0.035 666% >Ba 0.007 0.250 3,471% >Ca 0.188 0.299 59% >Cr 0.001 0.025 2,400% >Cu 0.002 0.010 400% >Fe 0.017 0.827 4,765% >K 0.020 0.101 405% >Mg 0.057 0.088 54% >Mn 0.001 0.011 1,000% >Ni 0.0005 0.0156 3,020% >Pb 0.005 0.003 -67% >Pt 0.007 0.003 -133% >S 0.078 0.135 73% >Si 3.19 3.11 -3% >Sn 0.0007 0.020 2,757% >Ti 0.001 0.002 100% >V 0.0011 0.0001 -1,000% >W 1.27 3.04 139% >Zn 0.008 0.018 125% >Zr 0.014 02.08 14,757% > TABLE 2 >Element P [ppm] U [ppm] D [%] >Ag 0.0001 0.0164 16,300% >Ba 0.007 0.250 3,471% >Cr 0.001 0.025 2,400% >Fe 0.017 0.827 4,765% >Mn 0.001 0.011 1,000% >Ni 0.0005 0.0156 3,020% >Sn 0.0007 0.020 2,757% >V 0.0011 0.0001 -1,000% >Zr 0.014 02.08 14,757% > CONCLUSIONS > Those who do not believe in the possibility of LENT will >have to claim that somehow the processed solution got contaminated. >But if so, where did the contamination come from? Both the catalog >specification of the Zr electrodes and the CG's independent >verification of this specification by an independently performed >quantitative Mass Spectroscopy analysis show that there is not >enough of the elements which were dramatically increased in >quantity to account for any putative "contamination" by leaching. >As a variation on the preceding experiment, instead of use >of a Heat Sink, the beaker was placed inside of a coolant apparatus >containing a bath of ethylene glycol and dry ice, and maintained at >near 0 degrees C. Before that, twice as much of the Mother Solution >[namely 20 ml] had been used in Step 2, and the resultant solution >had been microwave-heated to dissolve more of the Tungsten; this >worked, in that the new before-&-after processed W measurements >were 13.3 ppm and 22.8 ppm, respectively, showing that 10.5 times >more W had been dissolved successfully in this experiment than in >the prior one. (The remainder was dispersed throughout the solution >in the form of a colloidal gel, which further dissolved during the >electrolysis, thereby accounting for the increase in measured W from >13.3 to 22.8 ppm.) Consequently, if contamination were the cause of >the measured appearance of Ag, etc. then there should have been up >to 10 times more alleged "contamination" appearing, but (as >explained below) this did not happen! >Furthermore, in this second case, much more total energy >was put into the electrolysis, in that the Voltage went up to 456 V >and the Current never went below 0.9 A and after 2 minutes was at >1.4 A, and after 30 minutes was at 1.1 A. However, the increases >in elements formerly not present were far less dramatic. In this >"cooled" case, the Zr impurity increased only by 3,840% and the >only differences D over 450% in magnitude were a decrease in Zinc >[Zn] by -1,264% and increases in Aluminum [Al] by 1,229% and in >Silver [Ag] by 8,100%. However, there is not enough Silver in the >Zr electrodes to account for such a vast increase in Silver. >Accordingly, both experiments can be viewed as Transmutation of >Tungsten into "Silver, etc." with the non-cooled experiment >providing twice as much transmutation [namely 164 times versus 81 >times as much Silver as originally present] as did the cooled >experiment, which is consistent with the fact that in the cooled >experiment all transmutations were radically diminished. >The cooled experiment not only serves as a control on >possible contamination, but actually provides new, additional >evidence to rule out any level of contamination sufficient to >explain the dramatic appearance of Silver not originally present >(because, for example, in the cooled experiment the level of Ti >contamination in the before and after processed solution remained >absolutely the same [D = 0%], while the Silver increased by a >factor of 81). If the Silver were contamination from the Electrodes, >then why did not the vastly predominant contaminant Ti increase by >any quantitatively measurable amount? >The only remaining logical possibility is that Low Energy >Nuclear Transmutations (LENT) have indeed taken place. >======================================================= >Robert W. Bass, M.A. Oxon [Rhodes Scholar]; Ph.D. [Johns Hopkins] > Registered Patent Agent # 29,130 [ex-Prof Physics, BYU, 1971-81] >Inventor: Topolotron, Plasmasphere, issued; QRT Cold Fusion, pending > > Innoventech, Inc. >Authorized Distributor, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT) for > Radwaste Remediation (RR) Money-Back Guaranteed Systems, e.g. > Cincinnati Group (CG) LENT-1^[tm] Kit, Price $3,000 > See http://web.gcis.net/cincygrp/ > >P.O. Box 1238, Pahrump NV 89041-1238; phone/FAX: (702) 751-0932/0739 >Voice-Mail: (702) 387-7213; e-Mail: rbrtbass pahrump.com >============================================================ >============================================================ > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 09:27:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18787; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:08:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:08:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980205110603.00abfa50 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:06:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 10 underway In-Reply-To: <34D9D0B8.A16 interlaced.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980130002835.00856de0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980130081952.00867410 mail.eden.com> <34D99FD9.6C1350EE mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BAv301.0.Tb4.m7Vsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Run 10 has just started. It has the same old auto brake lamp W filament but this time we're using KNO2 for the catalyst....not KNO3. The KNO2 we got is noticeably wet as it comes out of the bottle...very hygroscopic. Upon disassembly of the apparatus after Run 9, a pale yellow-greenish powder was observed atop the cylindrical cartridge heater well...just under the filament. Judging by the color, this powder is likely to be WO3. This is the first time we've ever observed such powder after a run!? Also, it is interesting to note that the KNO3 present in the chamber during Run 9 melted into a solid cake in the catalyst vial (mp 333C). The was 0.20 grams of KNO3 initially and, after the run, we also measure 0.20 grams...i.e. no detectable loss due to vaporization. Thanks, Jack, for the filament references. BTW, we didn't opt for the Pt filament experiment because BLP (U of Penn actually) only saw about 5% excess heat in that one. Curious, isn't it, that the lower excess heat figure goes with the better calorimetry (U of Penn used a Calvet calorimeter for their work). While we're on the subject, Robin pointed out to us that, in the Technology Insights report, BLP claims as much as 540 watts of excess heat for the "metal-hydride" experiment! The input power was apparently 186 watts...nearly 3:1 o-u! In this experiment a Ni wire that has been a cathode in a K2CO3 electrolytic cell is used as a filament. They claim the hydrided wire is the source of the hydrogen...but the drawing of this experiment shows ports for hydrogen gas and vacuum pumps as if there was a flow of hydrogen as well. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 10:11:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30490; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:03:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:03:53 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980205130422.00b30670 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:04:22 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Stripping and flipping Cc: In-Reply-To: <01bd30ef$783b2160$69a89bcf isonix> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"urWMH.0.3S7.7yVsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:02 PM 2/3/98 -0700, Paul Brown wrote: >I am interested. Tell me more of what you have in mind for a small linear >accelerator. I don't have anything in mind right now. I was just pointing out that, using deuterium, it is pretty easy to build a neutron source. My intrest in this years ago, and maybe someone wants to try to get NASA interested again, is as a source of high-Isp propulsion. Use the neutrons to generate enough power (with a little left over) for creating the neutron beam, and you have as a byproduct a very high Isp thrust. Useful only for very long duration missions though. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 11:18:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16824; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:16:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:16:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34D95DFA.3534 t-link.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 20:36:42 -1000 From: Alastair Couper Reply-To: aquarius t-link, net@t-link.net Organization: aquarian electronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Plasma tube experiment Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------626115C43B0" Resent-Message-ID: <"olfRH2.0.o64.w_Wsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------626115C43B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is a .gif giving a better idea of my previous posting......Alastair --------------626115C43B0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="Jertube.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Jertube.gif" R0lGODdhgALgAfAAAAAAAP///ywAAAAAWwE/AQAC/4yPqcvtD6OctNqLs968+w+G4kiW5omm 6sq27gvH8kzX9o3n+s73/g8MCofEovGITCqXzKbzCY1Kp9Sq9YrNarfcrvcLDovH5LL5jE6r 1+y2+w2Py+f0uv2Oz+v3/L7/DxgoOEhYaEgCkJiIsFjSeAhp8jgJIFkZiSnyaNC4mfn549l5 GaCoyGiKeqpAuYrqMJrKWXm6uOoKiuaZMPpaSto7y3pJyUv6+7oZCxwrnKt7PMwQbPxAPc18 sOuMW+z8bNZ6/Xu7iytNDktcbszui/wNTma+rk1teoy/IB7N7Z4OT1S2ePLA1PN1jV6/c/BU 7aPFqaGyg/YqEizYZeCsg/8TH3qshq7dOm/+QErsh1FLtFYlLXoj6VKjyYY0x5HclvIKSn0U eY6cyPBk0HgCa9FaqRFnTiool3rAp9RkVAlD1zR12qEjBJgXpqa5ipWDwK0yu4L9GtYR0o3l UtmKKoscQ6gVXcWNcjathrFahV5s+Vfr3XFN8urN0FeqTHrvvAZMbJhI5MNm9YlMmm9hZovY /v11MpmyBaX/YDLmjNPd2CmhRVdIvflbYqJlaRN0bKS1awqwGy/W7PsjYKKFd6vFFtw2utnK T+MOZRzRVZ/2jr4TOVPVW5rVde/wHj18A/DiyzMyjx4D+fTi17OP7v6906bx5dOoz2Sn/eJj Fu7/B90fL/89gR8S+QwIxXN4aYOgFAVKFtFnDebmBURVTXjEg0HchSGBXCjYYREahgBViSae CGKIQ4w4AYopUuWiigaiYCIPNcoYyoN0LbEjjjmsZ5kVQfo4Q2hDVsghkSyclWQ4Fyo5gmYv htEklJrIxUeVVm7wZB5dbkkWMIZ8CaZDrEBCppVTTVkHmw2myaJVbsr3YpxszFlemvtMQ4ie 6OEZoYBj2lkQoOcJeoihOSmKaKBoEhoJo3sy+ImkmUDqUgwuYioDp4BYak0pam1K6ok8eroH qBEAimI6Rh0Fq6tvwdqjEKr6QeiF5JXKa6+8rniYp7WKCmMtohobq4Wz/256rKvH2iLXrU+F Ja01uPmKrbXYMvsdqm94qx5dr8paYpStjjtsDeBa1cO26bbgbrW8ySNvuMnOGm29o7mFr1E2 6KtLt+6umO19lerQb8J+IizusuueGemPvrJWapFo4uDWs7GqlPHGMDy8BcgPVYxkjB/3+e+9 tIqcssois8yUur862eoLMDt4n8LcneETRC7cnGCRpMJRM7y4dsovrXSga3MfL3Nrh6lLZvmx hbJmya/RXlZdtNPvSrL1zy73ud0KQGdos9SFlKvC2SKKTS4my6bgNoRhztzZ14OW7UjUd6tM 7spMg8N3vr2GurS2gKOLN73IINus1ZJP16Y6i//rXK51S0EreeSeK8tn4sgxfnnX832Oeuea N0q05aXHrTZWqqdO+zZ1Q9cZ7JhvB3DUs/+eun9yUE667iuLxnntyvt8aBXxDlx89LerAXz1 nwsPtqYfEL976dN/ZX34Gj8fr/bT5i795a6Jzz720nW6/XjGz6/l5uwvT2zz75uflTr0Y76b +4XPfVGy2Pny9j/ABRB/A5xU3+B3QD6lL3DwEaDyIPZA/vXPfxM0VniSZ0Hm6Q8RBowg+rq3 swCG0HMOzODJ4reqiaUHhAwkDY1KuMEyjad8sLghBGGoQ7PRDYc5DOIQfajBIhrxBJyC2Yi+ 96a2EVGJSyzgEZNowir/ggBVTiShFkk0tR+C8YtbDCMWgWiQI7EFKVLaofO0dkY0fggoyXnc ZnrDmp9NsYxIQo6j7tGTnUBRLHoUoxXhFSR8baQm3fCYbAgDGEBehhkd8dfCmNg0Qx6ybbEZ zEhiUp1H1oUiCBkIV5pDyVQi7IVxHGPVFsmZx5RylrLc2U0CKRzB0PFHrZTiFc0mi9UMJyEc KeZMXlKbk9Aylv/SJByRSKNgCLOWwzQmNbmDTGaKEpTXUdcezfjL43AzlsREZUmYk83A/OY2 dbtZF5cEKV0ek5Tl9IcjbWfKZJqGlClMmzedCU1NdBI4AKFmXxzTm0rSZ6DM7J38mgnQgJIo /2v4XB2WyJkZJtVqLnARRzcd2kKDRTSaDHuKGql3u3f20p+5+J5KV8rEZF7sO99EpKbqR7Z2 1RRuSgLpa3aaSRwNcoSFxNhQsWYroN50Qj5FjFKR9p+m7uWpQnuPVLlE1ZwdFXxb7eFIu6VC /sBUYGm5pI2yCtZFdfWnX93QVcVgViC89FRrzc9bJfpM0NyVKXsNZ1EdFFeeBRZtbS3MYDNy 2CTMFQs4pVJi84NWvDRWSJP9UGSdV1klnJRnl82C3giW2Xl0tmSb1WppW1fYO5lMoKajWmrv QL7YRey1ZAzZaAXR14DR9lGrldttB8FPwv0Wt2YS7m4TNbJnLLZQlv872HGRay3fPndMxYLu WJ3botwuaLprs1cglsvcvdRVrsMNlnZnxF3jPPYL4H3TeTdU3vaMV6TXRdB6hRTfGb4XY/m1 6n7py8ol/re+5hpwSw0MTkRatIr3JSxPJRTEBgOLpRAW8HypyMlu1haWnn2lNjccSp14uMIg lvANnkZiEH8YsjdFcAUv7FUVGwjGIZWxcW3MJU9aYsRYxbF4UZMrkBmKxupdSz/tmkXp2GWj CkHMaaPVDg0fGbMg4UdGgYLP7kznHEnSMYYFOs5qKHRfGfWjMk85ZYr5j5HbPKUkl5PPZQ75 l5BMZ5qz82GGDmfFVHbjR7K85jUdiM2EnrP/TVNo52kaFJJVjvM5sezi7GqZnW0ZBlia4ed5 mvPLO84XkLfZ0NWVTdBtDmRw70wwOIeYH9oR5KRDcp16GppuSx7nm5MjzVN/+tGxNjKBjFzP 4oZYwxwVzjUZPZoHyxmXimkJsg/6E01LWbNlPrarYa1OWNNz2ylelbJtzWxcWxOPu+YQZIi8 ZoDI2tG2DPeyN41qbx+60eD2SDoLR+w4n5vPdvUgq5dx5WtDGYHasXRsCAnNTrxbmdLQpSOl fO91dntLTWR3Mcacu2lnWsyYgfeGheVJLjd5h20sVsh7XegnU5y0kdYhun3MYpgrV+Y3pjl2 bX4pnIPi5Tp/W9pa/95zTnca6EGf6rzjXXTFKpvoSU/20WML9ahLfepUr7rVr451ksFT402H 7cG77rWJg314Jh672c+O9rSrfe1sb7vb3w73uMt97nSvu93vjve8633vfO+73/8O+MALfvCE L7zhD4/4xCt+8YxvvOMfD/nIS37ylPdvIqeH0HjyXNKgNjOb3ITmE+vZqDGMacg6nu7PA0mm KeN4SclievbuavY/Fvu3+cbkWlday5emDig5mnndK4T1j+nSkXQscuFTdC0OE3nePOo63g2f x3aEN6ZV8/VcDpTbaUYm94NdfQjf8pHhvjW+cc/Pji4z055Bdqf3HOZd95PUHgc/tutffv9d GxujHpf/m8dfYfsUXfgnNpd3GRzmf2xEfym3fh1FUNVkT8UUGcUWZphWR/+Het0ncew3eki3 PQu1aqmUgSyhgfyXcp81cAzITcEkgn/De8FmgKVWb52nfVzHcBEYWiblR+hkftzHgQ2of9pC gMJADIh2LYzGg/k3SvIXfqmXfSEhT1X1Z0+4aBWoUSYYhWYxhBdVJc+BhFTYg0vYefhWg/x2 g9dEfVYog2sYgNsHS9DmhMqBhvsmfiP4fRb3GwdXFKUXf2UIaiBFbr4XgzfoeyQXSr0AfF4x iIx0GpSmiOYWF9BWa4dYbbRBSdXFFtV1bmWHeExXeTDyiZIVign/snmjaIqniIqpaCtBqIW2 52TgEnqw52RmmGEDuEsFxVeuOIAeOIsPNiWgR3zAJIsCyFh2AojuBB7ASIu0JovSRjGag4jQ V3CehmXJ4IAiKEjQuDE7wheCo2jWWBaQZh2JCI529Em8t2L+Yo5qg3zSaI4Ghx1icY7LAIR/ iIe6Zn8xEW220Y3xRxq5hmckmIWReH13OIXuNpCNRH7Wx4rNWEsKWYHl1oGNeIZYqH4MB4BT lpB+aG0ImJH0Jm3EeIIop4IRwhy8oWfT9IVqSGgkaYTr12ps+JHa5m5MuG7N5ojBtZE2mX4T eWonyXnOpoAs6HkGqU1wSJMXgX0zWJEh66lPEncjwnRL1kSSIhmVQ9l+P8k24UJL3/gZdtaR zghoewaHH0mGYrlgPPmVvgaWhLGTNBhqZoaGurhxADltyiCR9YiWxmYTeihq67SAZwaC/ReX bDiXb9mU7CSXCUGXfraUOFmFMgmGPthoPdlrfhllR9mXW2aCGMmW7DaXxTeGmNluLBmZvJhc dnmA00iJrNmS8chn6jh8f/l1S/aEiiRslvaai0iILXiWV3OGRYFmi1iNMYkr3gKUu5iKvcMq pUhGsWguWeGctaVyW1QfnqiK2amd28md3emd3wme4Sme40me5Wme5zkHBQAAOw== --------------626115C43B0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 16:12:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20986; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:57:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:57:38 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980205175807.0073544c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 17:58:07 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Run 10 results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1LjlL3.0.j75.k7bsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Take a look at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run10.html Executive summary: The new catalyst, KNO2, made no difference at all. Maybe we're not getting the catalyst hot enough. I cannot detect a significant amount of vaporization (weighing before and after)...but it is melting. The filament lasted about an hour again this time but, before the H2 went it, the filament ran for >3 hours in vacuum with little or no sign of deterioration. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 16:46:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27461; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:40:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:40:10 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Run 10 results Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3296$e6d8e820$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"uBO3Q1.0.-i6.dlbsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, February 05, 1998 5:06 PM Subject: Run 10 results >Take a look at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run10.html > >Executive summary: The new catalyst, KNO2, made no difference at all. That's no surprise. :-) > >Maybe we're not getting the catalyst hot enough. Betcha if you do, the filament will burn out like a flashbulb. I cannot detect a >significant amount of vaporization (weighing before and after)...but it is >melting. How much does 1.0E15 atoms of oxygen weigh? :-) The filament lasted about an hour again this time but, before the >H2 went it, the filament ran for >3 hours in vacuum with little or no sign >of deterioration. Right. Lightbulbs last for thousands of hours at 2,000 K. Get rid of the Oxygen or forget it, Scott. Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 18:19:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07799; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:40:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:40:23 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: A different Hydrino Protocol to follow Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:34:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd329f$657b2500$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"EDfZJ2.0.gv1.1ecsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For the venturesome: Immerse a 1mm diameter carbon-graphite rod (like those used for heating the solder cups of electrical contacts)in lightweight SAE 10 motor oil containing some KOH or K2CO3.Provide for venting the carbon oxides, hydrogen, and volatile hydrocarbons (you can always burn these) :-) coming off. Apply enough power to heat it white hot and do some calorimetry. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 18:49:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14705; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:23:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:23:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DA73DA.7D86 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 21:22:18 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 10 results References: <3.0.1.32.19980205175807.0073544c mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vuEnP3.0.hb3.OGdsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Take a look at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run10.html > > Executive summary: The new catalyst, KNO2, made no difference at all. > I know you have some close "BLP protocol" things to try yet, but, before you throw in the towel, it might be interesting to try glow discharge generation of the H atoms. A few kilovolt DC driven glow discharge would still be fairly easy to meter and record for power, you could keep the W surface if desired, and there would be no damn 2000 deg C filiment to burn out. (I know, it's not BLP - I'm talking last resort.) Diligent work, Scott! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 20:06:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17927; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:00:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:00:42 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980205234259.00b08a78 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 23:43:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UrUnT3.0.vN4.fhesq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Check out the following URL http://redshift.vif.com/V05N1EPH.pdf no HTML as of yet, sorry... Wesley claims that the Aharonov Bohm effect cab be explained by a force produced by motional induction; motion thru the spacially varying A field. I found this idea intriguing, I wondered what the rest of you thought of it. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 5 22:14:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13253; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:07:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:07:48 -0800 Message-ID: <34DAA880.926 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 01:06:56 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980205234259.00b08a78 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IV5ie.0.-E3.pYgsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > Check out the following URL > > http://redshift.vif.com/V05N1EPH.pdf > > no HTML as of yet, sorry... > > Wesley claims that the Aharonov Bohm effect cab be explained by > a force produced by motional induction; motion thru the spacially > varying A field. I found this idea intriguing, I wondered what > the rest of you thought of it. Most of this paper is way beyond me, Keith, but I assume the theory considers that neither A nor curl A really goes to ZERO in the near-field of a FINITE skinny solenoid - they just get very small. Isn't this indicated by equation (1) in the paper? I assume Bohm considered this weak field in analyzing his results. It seems to this non-physicist that neither the flux gradient nor curl A (= B) in equation (3) VANISH - again, they just get very small, right? Of course, maybe Bohm used a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY skinny solenoid!! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 01:30:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA06095; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:23:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:23:55 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34D95DFA.3534 t-link.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:22:51 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Plasma tube experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"UzFYi1.0.9V1.fQjsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Alastair - RE: hot plasma tube arc rising towards the top of the tube... What would this do that a bubble level wouldn't? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 03:14:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29065; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:12:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 03:12:47 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Off Topic; Ash Wednesday and LENT Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:07:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd32ef$77863aa0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"TstEC2.0.367.l0lsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Bass is embracing Catholicism and moving to Baltimore! If his itinerary includes The Vatican, I'm going to renew my IE subscription! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 04:15:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17499; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:14:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:14:02 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:12:39 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re : Re: Plasma tube experiment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"cz-Sy.0.GH4.7wlsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 06/02/1998 11:27:30 , Rick Monteverde wrote : << Alastair - RE: hot plasma tube arc rising towards the top of the tube... What would this do that a bubble level wouldn't? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI >> You can do "The Jacob Ladder" experiment, this works also well in the air.... Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 06:25:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01560; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:22:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:22:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:21:25 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980206222402.1c6f9aa8 po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Vortex From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: A bit of space Resent-Message-ID: <"xMVE72.0.HO.vonsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings to fellow whatever-we-ares. Looks like I need to find a piece of real estate to indulge myself. Any Vortexers out there with any idea where I can rent ((cheaply) a calm quiet place to build one of my grander illusions ? Please let me know. My default is to return to the Rockies, but I despair over the difficulties and delays of procuring parts and supplies there. Currently existing in Singapore (nothing quiet or remote), I am considering NZ where an unsuspecting (work) colleague has a place to live (work). It probably wouldn't be fair (to him), as what I intend to do is simply too bizarre, but the location is quite advantageous, being closer to the southern pole as it is. Further north would be all right, as long as I wouldn't need to fend off paparazzi, UFO-wacko's, government busy-bodies, or any other similarly warped personalities. But at the moment Nzed is all I can see as my next destination. Unless someone has a better idea ?? Cheers From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 07:14:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01705; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:09:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:09:36 -0800 Message-ID: <34DB27B4.472 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 10:09:40 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Re : Re: Plasma tube experiment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RJZPj2.0.YQ.lUosq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > > On 06/02/1998 11:27:30 , Rick Monteverde wrote : > > << Alastair - > > RE: hot plasma tube arc rising towards the top of the tube... > > What would this do that a bubble level wouldn't? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI >> > > You can do "The Jacob Ladder" experiment, this works also well in the air.... > > Jean-Louis Naudin Yes! Rick and Jean-Louis - and all together now......"WHY DOES BALL LIGHTNING OFTEN FALL TO THE GROUND AND BOUNCE?? What the devil is this stuff? (I just had to slip that in - being a major BLN - BLnut.) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 07:27:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10672; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:23:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:23:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DB2A29.2B0D interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 10:20:09 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A bit of space References: <2.2.16.19980206222402.1c6f9aa8 po.pacific.net.sg> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G8_se2.0.ec2.Zhosq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mpowers Consultants wrote: > > Looks like I need to find a piece of real estate to indulge myself. > > Further north would be all right, as long as I wouldn't need to fend off > paparazzi, UFO-wacko's, government busy-bodies, or any other similarly > warped personalities. > Well, that pretty much rules out planet Earth, ...... hmmmmm, the Moon, .... now Mars, ..... I think you're out of luck, Mpowers. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 08:23:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16083; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:18:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:18:52 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34DA73DA.7D86 interlaced.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980205175807.0073544c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:19:22 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 10 results Resent-Message-ID: <"9xZ0v3.0.7x3.gVpsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger wrote: >I know you have some close "BLP protocol" things to try yet, but, before >you throw in the towel, it might be interesting to try glow discharge >generation of the H atoms. A few kilovolt DC driven glow discharge >would still be fairly easy to meter and record for power, you could keep >the W surface if desired, and there would be no damn 2000 deg C filiment >to burn out. (I know, it's not BLP - I'm talking last resort.) I was going to suggest a glow, too, as a last resort. A glow discharge makes on the order of 10 H atoms for every ion, though the exact number varies with discharge conditions. I just want to point out that a glow in hydrogen runs at about 300 VDC, not kV. It usually takes a few hundred more volts to initiate the discharge, though. Still, we must be doing something wrong with that W filament. In the dregs of my mind I remember those old _hydrogen_ thyratron tubes with filaments inside. Among other thngs, they were used to switch the high voltage from the pulse forming network to the magnetron in old radar sets. Perhaps I am mixing up memories---maybe they didn't contain hydrogen afterall. But if there was such a thing, then hydrogen and _some_ kind of thermionic filament coexisted for hundreds or thousands of hours. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 08:39:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21890; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:34:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:34:18 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:33:34 -0800 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Re: Plasma tube experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"e3ame.0.wL5.7kpsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alastair Couper asked: >One question: what would likely be the percentage of gas actually >participating in the light producing arc, and what percentage is just >along for the ride? It's hard to say precisely without lots more information, but the ball park answer is that only a tiny percentage of the gas in the plasma column is ionized. Almost all of the gas is still just gas, though it is heated by the plasma. If you increase the electric current, the voltage across the tube will not change much, but, of course, the power and total heating will increase with the product VI. This power input gets divided between electrode heating and heating in the plasma column. >Could the resonant frquency of the sloshing effect >noted be used to indicate that ratio? (Like a pendulum.) There is a resonance, called the "plasma frequency". More correctly, it is a cutoff, which is harder to measure. It is likely to be in the microwave range, above 1 GHz. One standard technique is to place the plasma tube inside a resonant microwave cavity and measure the cavity resonant frequency with and without the discharge lit. One can calculate the plasma electron density form the difference in frequency and the geometry of the setup. Ion density equals electron density (one electron per ion; this plasma is too cold to produce multiply ionized ions). >What would be >the temperature difference between the lit and unlit gas? This depends greatly on details, but probably on the order of 100 deg C. >Another question: is this useful? Depends on what you want. Your interpretation of the motion of the plasma column as due to its bouyancy relative to the cooler gas in the tube sounds correct to me. An anology is a helium-filled balloon inside a car. PS: This message was returned by e-postmaster, who couldn't find either aquarius t-link or net@t-link. So, I am posting it to vortex-l, in the hope that Couper gets it. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 08:52:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25111; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:50:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:50:10 -0800 From: Puthoff aol.com Message-ID: <382e4831.34db3f20 aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:49:33 EST To: knagel cnct.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"S9zYP.0.B86.1zpsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Two additional papers that classify the Aharonov-Bohm as having a classical interpretation are: O'Raifeartaigh and Straumann, "On the origin of the Aharonov -Bohm effect," Comments Nucl. Part. Phys., vol 20, p.15 (1991) Boyer, "Classical electromagnetic deflections...............related to the Aharonov-Bohm effect," Phys Rev D. vol 8, p. 1679, 1973. The hbottom line is quoted in the first paper above: "...the AB effect is seen as a classical effect that can only be measured by quantum-mechanical means...." Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 08:56:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25711; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:53:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:53:46 -0800 From: Puthoff aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:52:17 EST To: knagel cnct.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena: P.S. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"6rwwT3.0.eH6.P0qsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: P.S. I meant also to include the reference: R. M. Herman, "Classical origins of the Aharonov-Bohm effect," Found. Phys., vol 22, p. 713 (1992). Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 09:35:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00192; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:32:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:32:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DB48F7.4726 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:31:35 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 10 results References: <3.0.1.32.19980205175807.0073544c mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_r72a1.0.v2.naqsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > > In the dregs > of my mind I remember those old _hydrogen_ thyratron tubes with filaments > inside. Among other thngs, they were used to switch the high voltage from > the pulse forming network to the magnetron in old radar sets. Perhaps I am > mixing up memories---maybe they didn't contain hydrogen afterall. Michael, I quote from my little book "ABC'S OF RADAR" - vintage 1961 - "The soft-tube modulator is also known as a line or a line-pulsing type. Hydrogen thyratrons are usually used because they require less triggering voltage and give a longer tube life. Also, the hydrogen ionizes and deionizes faster than either argon or mercury....." Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 09:44:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00621; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:34:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:34:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Clinton Rawls" To: Subject: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:35:39 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980206173259.AAA13995 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"EPhbD3.0.d9.vcqsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Can anyone provide an answer for the following puzzle? Let's say we have 1 cubic foot of an ideal gas in a cylinder chamber pressing against a piston at 200 psi (and there is 0 psi behind the piston). The gas is then allowed to accelerate the piston overcoming its inertia undergoing adiabatic expansion. Upon reaching a point where the gas has doubled its volume (2 cu ft). Would the gas pressure at that point in time be the same regardless of initial temperature or would a higher temperature gas at the same initial 200 psi suffer less pressure loss once its volume has doubled? (Obviously, in order to have the same pressure at a higher temperature, there would have to be less gas in the setup.) I have some ideas about some vortex experiments but I need an answer to this question before I can proceed. Thanks to all! Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 09:51:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02056; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:43:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:43:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: , , , , , , , , , , , <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <76002.1473 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , Cc: Subject: Re: Shanahan: critique of 1997 Arata QMS Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:36:54 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980206174050190.AAA188 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"o5REe.0.yV.9lqsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is my commentary on Kirk Shanahan's review of the A&Z mass spectrometry. It is now apparent that the High Temperature Society (HTS) A&Z paper is a compilation of earlier work extending from before 1994 onward. Thus important graphs and comments from earlier papers are pieced together with very terse commentary and at best careful reading is necessary to place things in the proper contexts. It is easy to miss important contexts, for relevant data may be in different parts of the document. Thus there has been misunderstandings and conclusion jumping (good exercise, though). Mass spectrometry is not my field and I have spent many hours picking through the data in the A&Z papers, looking for clues for the proper fit of the pieces. ------------------ > The immediate issue at hand being addressed by the QMS work is > whether or not 3-He and 4-He are present. As usual, even if these > species are detected their origin must also be identified, as 3-He is a > normal decay product of tritium, and 4-He is a constituent of the > atmosphere. So the issue is not just detecting the He isotopes, but > correctly assigning their origin as well. True, and the paper addresses these issues in detail. > A&Z note that 'normal QMS' was shown to have a 4-He in-leakage > problem. What they said was that normal QMS requires flowing gas, which could easily be contaminated by 'mundane' sources of He at the level of interest. Therefore, no measurements purporting to show He from a CF test would be credible. This is a familiar problem. > Thus they first developed 'limited QMS', followed by 'closed > QMS' to solve that problem. They present copious data showing the > coupled mass 4 spectra which are resolved into 4-He and D2, and make the > claim that it is all from cold fusion. The question now becomes does > the data support their claim. Yes > I draw your attention now to Figure 17 of the '97 paper. What we > see are overlays of the various unresolved unit mass traces from a > deuterated and a non-deuterated sample acquired with 'limited QMS'. > Please note the mass 4 traces. Both sample show abnormal mass 4 > characteristics when compared to the rest of the traces. Specifically, > we see an increase with time, while all other traces decrease with time. > This indicates mass 4 is growing in as time progresses. > For the deuterated sample, this might be a suggestion of 4-He from > cold fusion, but where does it come from in the non-deuterated > sample?? My conclusion is that the 'limited QMS' technique has not > solved the 4-He in-leakage problem noted in 'normal QMS'. You make an assumption that the mass 4 signal is leaked He. A&Z identify the mass 4 for the non-deuterated case as D2, and for the deuterated case, D2 + 4He. In the legend for Fig 22[VIII] Note 1, it is stated that the Pd black sample "is sticked strongly with several to ten atomic layer whose volume corresponds to around a tenth of Pd-black. Such surface pollutant is removed by only "Sample-Heating" with high temperature (>1000 C) and released as a large amount of pollutant..." In Note 2, it is pointed out that the same 'pollutants' can exist on the surface and in the interior of the sample, the difference being the quantify. Note that the mass 2 signal, probably H2, is very large and D2 four orders of magnitude lower, the natural proportion of D2 to H2 in nature. D2 and H2 can be sorbed on the walls of the sample chamber and the sample itself. A&Z state that pollutants sorbed on the walls of the system remain there, for heating is required to drive them off. This could account for D2 seen and its continuing evolution as the sample and chamber are heated. Note also that with the deuterated sample the mass 4 signal is some 10 times greater, indicating evolution of D2 and possible He from a more abundant source in the sample particles. I am uncertain of the basis for Fig 17 and its cousin Fig 22. The time base is long, the vertical scale compressed, and fine details suppressed. These plots could be produced by a computer program from primary data, such as appears in Fig 15, 16 and 21, or they could be replanted by hand. The linkage between the data sets for Fig 17 and 22 and those for Figs 15, 16, and 21 is not obvious to me. It is important to note that for Fig 17 the ionization potential is probably 70 V and for Fig 22[VI] it is 25 V. The latter is not explicitly stated in the 1997 HTS paper, but is given for the same figure in a 1997 A&Z paper in the Proceedings of the Japan Academy. >Thus I discount all 4-He 'limited QMS' data based claims for cold fusion I think this conclusion hasty, as the non-deuterated mass 4 signal can be from expected pollutants, as noted above. I invite your study of Fig 15 A&Z, which show in great detail the mass 4 spectra from a series of samples over a period of time, in comparison with a non-deuterated sample. All shows bursts of gas as the heat is increased in steps. In the non-deuterated case, this signal quickly subsides to background level at mass 4, while the deuterated samples continue to produce D and 4He signals for many minutes. Portions of these traces are shown on p14. These traces have the same aspect as those from the closed QMS system in Fig 21, so I don't think your conclusion is well supported. A reading of the text on p10 onward indicates awareness of the pollution problem and steps to remedy it. The discussion pertaining to Fig 17 centers on the existence of tritium in the samples as evidence of a Rutherford reaction which produces 3T and 3He as primary products. 3T should be present in compounds of Mass 5,6,7 etc. These are at the same levels in the dueuterated and non-deuterated samples, therefore 3T is not produced and the Rutherford reaction is not present. I am a bit puzzled by "limited QMS". Reference is made to a needle valve, back pressure from the molecular pump, and the pump lubricants being a source of He contamination. I conjecture the following: if the pump pulls against a hard vacuum, it is possible for some molecules to migrate upstream through the pump and back into the chamber. This can be avoided by providing a continuous stream of gas at the inlet of the pump which will continually sweep any internally generated contaminants to the exhaust of the pump. The injected gas flow has to be small with respect to the pump capacity. This apparently worked well enough for them to see the 'coupled spectra', and to see that the presence of species with mass of 5,6,7, etc. are the same with and without deuteration, thus indicating against the presence of the Rutherford reaction and the compounds of 3T in the deuterated samples. > No information is given as to the details of how 'closed QMS' is > conducted (I am referring to sample mount and chamber design here), On p16 is a statement that the closed QMS system is all stainless steel with metal packing, Figs 18 and 19 show the configuration and operational sequence schematically. The legend for Fig 22[IV] is explicit, but requires careful reading. > other than to note that the sample is heated in a closed chamber, and > then the evolved gases are allowed to expand stepwise into a second > chamber that contains the QMS instruments and an unspecified hydrogen > getter pump. If the source of the 4-He in the 'limited QMS' case is > still present in the 'closed QMS' case, then we would expect the same > signal to be present in the 'closed QMS' spectra. This needs to be > remembered when interpreting the 'closed QMS' data. Fig 18, which has to be studied carefully, shows that the system is pumped down with the molecular pump for 5 to 15 hours to a pressure below 10^-8 Torr with valves to the sample, getter and the two QMS open. Then the pump is valved off and the sample heating cycle begun. Water and similar contaminants will have long since evaporated and no leakage can come from the pumping system. There is only the sample and whatever remains sorbed on the walls of the system. > Moving on to Figure 22-[VI] now, we see that there are some > differences between the deuterated and non-deuterated samples > (emphasized by Figure 22-[VII]). However we also not [note?] that the valving > protocols were different. That could be important considering the > baseline shift problem I note below. There is no change in valving protocols with respect to the deuterated and non-deuterated samples, although they are different from the 'limited QMS' protocols. What is shown as different pressures at different stages in the legend of Fig 22(VI) are different responses of different samples to nominally the same program of increased heater power for both samples, in different experiments. > In the case of the non-deuterated sample, we again note the apparent > significant mass 4 peak. What is it? 4-He? There is no mass 4 "peak" in the non-deuterated samples in Fig 22[VI]. There is a gradual evolution of mass 4, identified as D2, which is in its proper proportion to H2 as a sorbed atmospheric contaminant. Note again that the mass 4 signal from the deuterated sample is ten times greater as it now carries D2 from the electrolysis and spillover. He and D are distinguished in the high resolution scans as H isotopes are sorbed by the getter, leaving He isotopes in the system. It is important to note that the data of Fig 22[VI] were obtained with an ionization potential of 25 V, which does not ionize the He series. Thus only the H series is present, and mass 5,6 (which are tags of 3T compounds) are the same for the non-deuterated and deuterated cases, indicating that 3T was not produced. We also note the more > intense signals in the mass 3 and mass 2 traces. Again, where does > mass 3 come from? Mass 3 can be the DH molecule, as clearly indicated in Fig 22(VI), and can be an atmospheric contaminant sorbed on the Pd-black. See prior notes.. This sample was supposed to be non-deuterated, why > doesn't the trace remain in the baseline like the mass 5, 6, and 7 > traces? See comment above. Considering that no signal should be present in masses 3 and 4 > in the non-deuterated sample, the _differences_ between the > deuterated and non-deuterated samples are seen to be reasonably small, > and could well be considered to be sample-to-sample variation of the > same material. An assumption, the attribution of sources is given in the figure. Pd readily sorbs H and D and both are present in the atmosphere. It does not sorb He. See notes above. > I will stipulate that many of the coupled spectra from the 'closed > QMS' case show the presence of 4-He, with a minor caveat noted below. > However, it is completely unclear to me if the in-leakage problem > described for the 'normal QMS' problem has been removed or not. It is clearly stated (last complete sentence on p16) that the closed QMS consists of stainless steel with metal packing, the standard construction for a high vacuum system. A molecular pump (backed by a standard positive displacement pump, standard practice, not mentioned) is a standard way of producing the stated high initial vacuum. I don't think the difference could be any more clearly stated. The "normal" QMS involved flowing gases, open to contamination. The is sealed and isolated during operation. Thus, I > conclude that the evidence does not clearly support the conclusion that > cold fusion is active in the Pd black. This conclusion is based on the assumption that the closed QMS vacuum system leaks, with no evidence given that it does. No leaks, the previous statement holds: coupled-spectra show 4He. > As an aside, look at Figure 22-[II]. We see a coupled spectrum of > masses 3 and 4 from a 'closed QMS' run. The Figure labeling says > "4-He-2>>D2". But if that is true, why do we not see the clear 4-He > peak as we see the mass 3 peak? The mass-4 peak shows an amorphous > character that is incongruous with the 'coupled spectrum' approach. See my earlier comments about how Figs 17 and 22[IV} may be derived. The 'amorphous character' of the mass 4 peak is just a compression of scale from Fig 22[III]. Note that in this test the heating is not continued, but shut off and the system allowed to cool to room temperature before the data of Fig 22[III]B is taken. Fig 22(II) is an overview of the whole QMS run, out to 4015 sec (~67 hours). Mass 3 is principally DH, as clearly stated. There is no incongruity, one just has to look at Fig 22(III). > I believe we can understand this when we note the sloping background of > the mass 3 peak, and then go to any one of several 'coupled > spectra'. > Let's choose Figure 22-[II]-[A]. Note what happens to the > background at Qs, an abrupt amorphous hump develops. Clearly the > baseline of the spectrometer is being affected by pressure. This has > the effect of making interpretation of the TPD-like spectra (Figs. 17, > 22-[II], and 22-[VI]) very difficult because now a 'peak' in those > Figures could simply be a pressure rise due to some other gasses, not > the desired specific mass gas. I interpret the legend of Fig 22[II]A as stating that the step-wise heating occurs from Qs to Qt, releasing an initial burst of gases before the getter takes effect. We seem to be seeing plots of selected mass numbers and it is conceivable that the QMS might be temporarily saturated. However, this is not supported by Fig 22[III] which clearly shows this initial hump at Qs with 4He and D2 peaks resolved. The critical 'coupled spectra' data are taken 67 hours later, as clearly stated in Fig 22[II]A and depicted in Fig 22{III}B. Surely the QMS are not saturated now. > Figure 17 shows considerable H2 and water present. Large amounts of H2 are also present in the closed QMS. > Both these > species would be pumped to some extent by a normal metallic getter (such > as Ti, which I am guessing is what A&Z use). Thus the baseline change > in Figure 22-[II] might simply be a pumping away of water evolved from > the sample during heating. > Only if Figures 17, etc. are produced by > extracting resolved peak intensities from the background can we trust > the implied quantitative information shown in those Figures. Without > a mention of how the data in those Figures is produced, I assume the > simplest approach, which is to fix the spectrometer at that mass and > watch the time evolution of the signal. > Note that the sketch of the > system does imply the use of two spectrometers, but clearly there is > some 'multiplexing' going on, where a computer acquires several mass > traces at once (otherwise the Figures represent several runs combined > on single Figures). The evidence suggests to me that the spectrometers repetitively scanned the mass range of interest, and the various plots were extracted from the recorded data. This is probably why there are two QMS, for Fig 17 and its cousins include a wide range of mass numbers, perhaps more than can be accommodated by a single instrument. > So what _was_ the actual data workup protocol? Was baseline shift > corrected for or not? Fig 22[III]A shows the 'baseline' shift in the first minute following Qs, with the resolution of the D2 peaks clearly present. No correction necessary. The weaker coupled spectra for 3He and DH are not shown in Fig 22[III]B until the end of the 67 hour period. What was the algorithm used to compute peak > intensity on a sloping baseline? Irrelevant, I think. I believe that Kirk is being misled by the appearance of Fig 17 and its cousins. See my earlier comments. The detail of Fig 22[III]A is roughly rendered as an 'amorphous peak'. > Furthermore I have detected another minor problem. Look at the > bottommost coupled spectrum of Figure 20. Starting at the wavy lines > past the 6 minute mark, and working backwards, I can see a pattern > replicated almost every time three peaks are viewed together as a > triplet. As a function of increasing time, the peak intensities go > high-low-intermediate. Out of 12 triplets occurring after the Imax > point (and doing some adjusting for the sloping background) I see 7 > triplets that show this pattern. Most of the others only diverge > slightly. This indicates to me at least some kind of electronic > interference on a periodic basis, partially masked by normal noise. > > This 'triplet' effect can be noted in many spectra, not just the one I > point out. The cause seems to come and go, unless the time sequencing > of the data collection would resolve the issue. The authors need to > go back and clean up their electronics a bit. Well, perhaps there is some interfering signal present. However, its effect is small compared to the signals of interest which shows a distinctive repeated pattern superimposed on system noise and the variations one might expect from repetitive measurements of a time-dependent process. > This opens quite a can of worms. If an electronic interference can be > observed, what else might be present? How much of the double peaks in > the couple spectra are real? Note that there is no real calibration > of the technique presented. The technique is essentially self-calibrating. The dominant process, and the point of the whole exercise, is the gradual sorption of the hydrogen isotopes by the getter in this sealed, isolated system at room temperature. Gradually the D2 is removed, leaving 4He, Meanwhile its presence provides a continuing calibration of the QMS over a period of hours. The fact that it is removed indicates that it is D2, not 4He, which is not sorbed by the getter as it is not chemically active. A single spectrum is presented in the > Appendix taken from a prepared gas mixture, but it seems to be at > about an order of magnitude greater intensity. Does the QMS produce a > strictly linear pressure-intensity relationship, especially as the > pressure drops to lower orders of magnitude? At some point the answer > will be 'no', but where is that point? Fig 17 shows data plotted on a logarithmic scale spanning many orders of magnitude. The output of a QMS is a measured current, which can be linear over a very large range of magnitude. > Thus considering the mass 4 traces of Figure 17, the pressure-induced > baseline shifts, These are probably not 'baseline shifts' but artifacts of replotting of data. See previous comments. > and the other minor difficulties noted, I cannot > conclude with certainty the 4-He observed in the 'closed QMS' case in > fact can be attributed solely to the proposed cold fusion reaction. I think Kirk needs to study the report more closely. I find that this document requires very close scrutiny to properly piece together the data presented. It is, in fact, a compilation of many years of work described in more detail in other papers. It takes work, and time, to properly understand it. Otherwise it is very easy to make facile conjectures which actually are not supported by the evidence at hand. > In theory A&Z's approach could work, but the difficulties listed above > and the lack of experimental details demonstrating a control over the > 'effect' make the differentiation into 'CF' or 'non-CF' case > impossible. As I indicated above, the approach does work. I now have earlier papers, from 1994, 6, and 7 which give supporting detail which confirm the quality of their work. > Considering the 3-He vs. 3-H (T) issue now. The first problem is that > these species are unresolvable by mass spectrometry. A&Z agree on this. Thus we can only > use the gettering behavior of the mass 3 traces to indicate the lack > of T (no change => no T), or perhaps the 'V-I effect' experiments. Which is why the ionization potential experiments (Vi effect). > There is only one coupled spectrum presented that deals with the mass > 3 region, Figure 22-[III]-[B]-b (which relates back to Figure > 22-[II]). I feel that the spectrum presented in Fig 22-[III] is at > such low intensity that we cannot be sure the 'peaks' shown are not > just a single peak broadened and affected by baseline noise. The QMS calibrations of Fig D(b), p49, clearly show the capability to distinguish between DH and 3He/3T. The 'coupled spectra' of Fig 22[III]B are above the noise floor by a factor of at least 3 and each shows peaks at a constant separation. The relatively thick lines in the photocopy obscure some detail that would be more satisfying if the scale were different. A superposition and autocorrelation of these features would, I think, show a very distinct signal. I thinks Kirk's position is not supported by general knowledge of how reliable data can be extracted from noise by statistical methods. >But A&Z claim they have detected 3-He, so for the sake of argument, I will > assume that is true. I think this is the reasonable position. > Again, the only mass spectral Figures dealing with the time dependence > of the mass 3 trace are Figures 17, 22-[II], and 22-[VI] (and [VII]). > In Figure 22-[VI] it is clear that pressure steps are being used, and > I feel the minor baseline drifts can not be conclusively attributed to > the generic pressure effect on the spectral baseline as opposed to any > specific gettering effect. The 'pressure steps' are due to increased heater power, driving more gases from the surface and from within the samples. In Fig 22[VI], [VII] the ionization potential is 25 V and only the H series is ionized. In Fig 22[II] it must be 70 V to ionize the He series. The coupled spectra plots resolving the mass numbers are taken hours after the stepwise heating is done and the system cooled to room temperature. The gettering effect continues for hours. > The mass 3 traces in Figure 17 also seem ambiguous. See earlier comments about sorbed 'pollutants' on the surface of the Pd-black. Ionization potential is (probably) 70 V. > In the non-deuterated sample the mass 4 peak is increasing. Does this tail > over into the mass 3 trace late in the spectrum? Why should it? The plot is of the intensity of different mass numbers. We do not have all the raw data from the QMS, but what is presented does not show saturation effects. > We have an anomalous > mass 6 hump also for the non-deuterated sample. Is this released T2, > which would cause a concomitant peak in mass 3? It is identified as C++. (Note that if T2 is > released into an environment rich with H2, it will exchange on metal > surfaces (especially hot ones) and make HT, mass 4. Is that why the > mass 4 line keeps sloping up? It is probably sorbed D2 evolving. See earlier comments. > Gettering might resolve that question, so we look at Figure 22-[VI] > again, but we see no noticeable gettering, even though the time span > is much longer! This actually might be good! It suggests the peaks > are He isotopes. The gettering shows up in the raw data, the 'coupled spectrum' plots, not these summary plots. > But, now we turn to the 'VI-effect' plots shown theoretically in > Figure 22-[IV], and in reality in 22-[V]. We note the theoretical > presentation is reasonable, one 'transition step' per 'extra' > ionizable species (i.e. 2 species gives 1 step). And we observe 3 > steps in the mass 3 trace, and two in the mass 2 trace. Mass 4 shows > no steps, indicating one species present, probably 4-He based on the > coupled spectra work. > > So now we ask, what are the 4 species indicated in the mass 3 trace? > Possibly 3-He, DH, and T, but we need one more. Can DH ionize in two > populations, with the electron loss occurring at the D and the H atom > at slightly different energies? I do not know. This is an interesting conjecture and seems plausible. However, I do know > that the traces shown in Figure 22-[V] support the conclusion that > more than two species are present. Thus I fail to see how T can be > eliminated from consideration. To me the case is indeterminate again. Possibly. But return to Fig 17, where the discussion is centered on the tritium issue. If the Rutherford reaction is present, large amounts of tritium should be produced, which can form a long list of compounds of mass 5, 6,7, etc. These are listed in Fig 17 and "Xed" out. This population of compounds is listed in detail in Fig 11, along with precise mass numbers. The argument at this point is that the Rutherford reaction is not present, else large amounts of 3T and its compounds would be present, and the compounds are not. Now if 3T is an atmospheric contaminant, it is itself rare, much more rare than D, and would be hardly visible in the given experiment. Further, 3T is a hydrogen isotope and would be scavenged by the getter. The preponderance of the evidence is, then, that 3T is not among the gases evolved from the heated cathode material and the reaction is not the Rutherford. > If T was present in the sample, 3-He will be present also. The > relative amounts will involve when and how much T2 the sample saw. Of > course, we have _no_ historical data on the samples. Participation in a reaction producing megajoules of excess energy, then transfer to the QMS is not significant historical information? So we are left > with insufficient information once again. Assuming a) atmospheric contamination, or b) the Rutherford reaction. But Fig 22[III]B shows a 4He concentration some four times greater than the 3He concentration, whereas the Rutherford reaction yields 3He and 3T as primary products and 4He as secondary products. Thus the data supports a non-Rutherford nuclear reaction as shown in Fig 3. > I've run out of time and energy on this issue, so to recap the basic > points: > > - It seems that the 'limited QMS' configuration is still leaky, as the > non-deuterated sample shows anomalous mass 3 and 4 traces. The significant data are from the 'closed QMS", which does not leak. The mass 3 and 4 traces for non-deuterated samples are in natural proportion to H2 and are sorbed surface pollutants, as noted, driven off by heating. For the deuterated samples, additional D and He come from within the samples. > - The 'VI-effect' plots imply multiple mass 3 species present, and do > not exclude T as one of them, thus confounding the 3-He peak's origin. The exclusion of T is also supported by the 'limited QMS' data, which show an absence of T compounds. > - The interferences in the coupled mass spectral technique make > interpretation of the TPD-like plots ambiguous, and the coupled spectra > presented are not easily visually interpreted (because of > interferences) quantitatively. It is only and inference that interference sufficient to mask significant data is present. I do not see such an inference as being supported by the appearance of the data. > - Because the 'mundane' sources of 3-He and 4-He do not seem to be > excluded, no pro-CF conclusion can be drawn. Mundane 3He is atmospheric pollution or produce by a Rutherford reaction which also produces 3T as a primary product. Expected compounds of 3T are absent. 3He is resolved from DH by ionization potential and 'coupled spectra'. I'm tired too. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 10:03:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03303; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:52:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:52:19 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: , , , , , , , , <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <76002.1473 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , Cc: Subject: Re: Shanahan: Carrell: Blue: Arata spillover Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:40:13 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980206174050190.AAB188 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"GhN053.0.Qp.Dtqsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: My new comments, which I will preface with [mc]: > > Seeing the new papers now available, it is apparent that the Fig 5 diagram > > is a kind of schematic composite which illustrates the physical > > arrangements used, rather than a literal depiction of a specific > > experiment. > > So the 56-page paper's Figure _is_ just a sketch then...I guess we all > are forced to 'speculate' to develop 'conjectures' that explain the > data then. (Sorry about the implied sarcasm, but the point is that > when faced with insufficient experimental details, that's all we can > do!) [mc] Not quite, not quite. Fig 5 of A&Z-HTS isn't an engineering drawing, and Russ George told me that what he saw in Arata's lab wasn't quite like the sketch. The diagrams accompanying the Kawasaki translation of the 1994 paper give ranges of dimensions for the external and internal dimensions of the capsule. Fig 5 is adequate for determining the configuration and disposition of elements of the experimental cell. As I've said before, the HTS paper is a summary and careful digging is required. > > > The cell, as Mike describes it, has "thick" walls. I don't think > > > that one can overlook the fact that this means that most of > > > the Pd loaded with deuterium is ordinary solid metal and NOT > > > Pd black. > > > > For the dimensions I chose, this could seem so. However, D+ can diffuse > > through the walls, and there is measurement evidence that it does so. Once > > through the walls, it can form D2 molecules if enough energy is present, or > > it can migrate over the surface of the Pd black (spillover). The forces > > encouraging this migration are strong, and the distance into the individual > > particles short, so it could well be that D+ is only passing through the > > capsule walls and accumulates in the Pd black as a "sink", reaching the > > critical loading for initiation of the CF reaction. The concentration of D+ > > in the capsule walls may thus be low. > > > > No, no, no. If the Pd black gets loaded, it will also start > unloading! The unloading will be the reverse reactions of the gas > phase path, the surface diffusion path, and the unmentioned bulk > diffusion path. Because those paths are available, the D > concentration in the wall will be the same as that in the Pd black, > because it will also have all absorbtion/desorbtion pathways available > to it. The observed D2 pressure inside the cathode will reflect the > equilibrium concentration, and its rate of rise will reflect the > slowest of the possible reactions (including the electrolysis itself, > which produces the D from D2O that starts it all off). [mc] Yes, yes, yes. The loading/deloading is asymmetrical. I have discussed this point with Jean-Paul Biberion, who is a surface chemist. What gets through the outer walls is D+. What is at the surface of the Pd, inner wall or particles, is a cloud of e- bound to the host atoms but able to interact with and attract the D+. For D to escape as a gas, two D+ must find each other and then combine to form D2, which is not as strongly attracted to the surface. This is an endothermic process. D+ on the surface of the lattice can move into it, wherein the attractive forces are reduced and it can diffuse as a gas within the lattice. There must be some preferred locations in the lattice, but apparently the D+ are not tightly bound there. [mc] It is easier for the D+ to migrate over the inner surface of the capsule and the very extended connecting surfaces of the Pd-black than immediately combine to the gas state. This 'spillover', or surface migration, was once a doubtful subject in chemical circles, but there have now been three international conferences and a survey paper "Spillover in Heterogeneous Catalysts, Conner & Falconer, Chem Rev, 1995, 95, 759-788. [mc] The 1994 A&Z paper shows very clearly the time for D+ to pass through the wall of the capsule, and the further delay of internal pressure rise until the spillover migration is complete. > > > > Now how does one determine that it is the Pd black > > > that is the site of any heat source within this cell? It seems > > > to me the experimental evidence is rather weak on this point. > > > > The heat can come from any place where the local conditions are right, > > whether in the capsule walls or in the Pd black. Heat has been observed in > > solid cathodes in many experiments from F&P onward. A&Z's DS cathode is a > > way of increasing the surface/mass ratio -- as is the Patterson cell -- so > > the loading can be faster. > > Remember that the outer walls represent the largest mass, and the > loading will proceed primarily based on how fast the D is produced at > the cathode-electrolyte interface. D2 gas will be formed on the > inside as fast as it can. [mc] Not quite. It is D+ that migrates through the capsule walls and the formation of D2 at the inner surface is endothermic. > The D2 will reabsorb into the Pd black. [mc] No, the least energy path is surface migration, or spillover onto the large Pd black surface. > Also, we have the surface and bulk diffusion of the D atoms to > add in as well. Basically, the speed of loading should be controlled > by the electrolysis rate, as electrochemical loading is considered to > be a 'slow' way to load as opposed to a gas loading approach. Slow, perhaps, but it generates large effective pressures due to the electrical forces at the electrolyte/cathode interface. The use > of Pd black inside the cathode does nothing but add void space inside > the cathode, and possibly induce new impurities arising from a > separate source of Pd now in the experiment. [mc] Not so. It adds enormous surface area and reduces the distance D+ have to travel to produce high loading densities at many, many locations. > > In both cases internal stresses as the loading > > increases can cause micro-fractures, resulting in de-loading. With Pd black particles only 40 NM across, it is hard to visualize micro-fractures. De-loading is endothermic as mentioned above. > I believe in a 'normal' F&P-type experiment, the cathode being solid, > these cracks produce local regions where the fields are not conducive > to high loading, i.e. the local chemical potential is not high enough > to approximate high pressure loading conditions. It also forms local > spots where bubbles can form, which also assists in unloading, as the > electrolyte necessary to establish the double layer (which produces > the chemical potential approximating high pressure environments) is > excluded from the cathode surface by the gas bubble. Thus it is hard > to get into the high loading regime (D/Pd > .85), where CF is supposed > to occur. [mc] We are not discussing large solid electrodes, which A&Z abandoned at the start, in 1989. The A&Z case will do likewise of course, and may only be > different in details due to reequilibration between the void gas, the > Pd black, and the cathode wall. [mc] Hardly. In the A&Z case the details are vitally important and make the difference between an experiment with very clear results (when carefully studied) and one with ambiguous results. > >Patterson > > uses a thin film on a spherical bead, which handles the stresses well. > > I posted to spf that it is unlikely that the stresses are that > extensive. [mc] In a conversation with Pattersonn at the ANS meeting in Washington, he directly told me that an important advantage of the spherical films is the ability to handle stress. It is well known that bulk cathodes swell when loaded, and may develop microcracks, as mentioned above. > _Extremely_ optimistic assumptions (read 'unrealistic') must be made > to get film strengths that would keep the films from popping like a > balloon for CF-level loadings. [mc] this is in direct contradiction to statement above that 'unlikely that stresses are that extensive'. I estimate using optimistic but > rational assumptions that you would get a few hundred atmospheres at > best. The question then becomes how CF can be claimed when the Pd > loading is well below 'established' requirements (>.85 D/Pd). [mc] Details in this thread of reasoning are missing. > A dynamic, non-equilibrium state > would be established with an internal flux of H or D in one bead and > out another. (The H or D would get from bead to bead the same way it > gets from particle to particle in the A&Z Pd black, but gaseous D2 > forming in the bubble now has a chance to be lost out of the cell.) [mc] I'm not sure that surface migration, or spillover, operates at an aqueous interface. > > used Pd black, in which the particles are so small, a few thousand atoms > > across, that loading stresses should not matter. > > > > There is strong evidence of heating of the Pd black. Page 40 of the 1997 > > report shows evidence of partial melting of the particles, and the QMS > > measurements of gases evolved from the heated Pd black show the presence of > > 4He and 3He, ash of nuclear reactions releasing heat. > > > > See my comments on the QMS work that Rich passed on. I have a comment > in the works on the SEM data, but to 'jump the gun' a bit, you can get > structural changes in Pd without going to excessively high (near the > melting point) temperatures if you have high H2 overpressures. Heat > is not the only way to get the SEM result. > > {{snip}} > > > > The 4 atm pressure is an arbitrary one chosen in another experiment > > described in the 1994 paper. Here again, you are at a disadvantage not > > having the paper before you. It was posted by Akiri Kawasaki on Vortex, > > perhaps Rich Murray could send it to you. The 1994 paper discusses the > > properties of the Pd black at length, and one bit of evidence for the > > efficacy of the Pd black is that if you pressurize a capsule by > > electrolysis, turn the current off, and then let the pressure decay by > > diffusion out of the capsule, the decay rate is much slower if the capsule > > is packed with Pd black. A pressure of 4 atm was chosen as the "off" point > > in both cases. This choice is, I think, somewhat arbitrary, for convenience > > in the experiment or instrumentation. > > > > Of course, more mass in the cathode means more D storage in total, > which means it will take longer to unload for a fixed kinetic rate... > Are the unloading rates mass normalized? [mc] The rate of pressure drop with the _empty_ capsule is 3 times greater than for the packed capsule. Total capsule volume ~15 cc, cavity volume ~ 0.9 cc. Conjecture unsupported. > > > I think there is some confusion here concerning the direct transport > > > of deuterium from the inner wall of the cell to the grains of > > > Pd black. Is this supposed to occur via some form of surface > > > creep with a surface density of deuterium that is somehow > > > disconnected from the gas density? I'd like to see a real > > > solid discussion of that phenomena. It sounds fishy to me. > > > > Dick, there are three reversible pathways available to load the Pd > black. The surface diffusion of D, the bulk diffusion of D, and the > recombination of D to D2, followed by gas phase diffusion, followed by > readsorbtion. What the relative ratios are next to impossible to > determine in a reproducible fashion, because surface area on a > sample-to-sample basis is so hard to control. Diffusion in a bulk > metal is even hard to do because diffusion through the bulk vs. > diffusion along grain boundaries is very hard to separate. > > > What you are referring to is "spillover", or surface migration. Indeed, > > many in the chemical community doubted this phenomenon, and the first > > international symposium was not held until 1983, and third and latest in > > 1993. You can find a discussion of spillover in Curtis and Falconer, > > "Spillover in Heterogeneous Catalysts", Chemical Review, 1995, 95, 759-788. > > I have puzzled over this myself and have some recent correspondence with > > Jean-Paul Beberian, a surface chemist, trying to grasp it better. Kirk > > Shanahan has also commented in this area. I plan another post on this > > subject. This is surface chemistry, an area of forbidding complexity. It is > > D+ which migrates through the walls of the capsule and preferentially > > migrates across the touching surfaces of the Pd black particles. > > > > The 'spillover effect' is also invoked in hydride chemistry. I am > still looking into this, but you can check Susic and Maricic in J. > Material Sci., 28 (1993) 3161-3167, and references therein if you want > to follow up this lead. Note that my critique of the 'spillover > effect' as used by A&Z is _not_ that it doesn't occur, but that it > leads to a higher loading in the Pd black, which is supposed to result > in CF in the Pd black. The system will equilibrate to the _same_ > loading in the Pd black as in the cathode, and thus the net effect of > the A&Z cathode as compared to other closed cell work should be zero. > Of course, that then leads to my study of A&Z's work, and my > commentaries. > > > > If the the use of Pd black is especially significant because > > > it has such a high surface-to-volume ratio then there is lots > > > of surface available to exchange atoms with the surrounding > > > space. And if the energy is available at that surface the > > > pressure should show a rather rapid response to an increase > > > of the surface density of deuterium. So we are supposed to > > > have a heat source here, perhaps hot enough to "melt" the > > > Pd. So tell us, Mike, what keeps the deuterium stuck to > > > the surface to any special degree? > > > > See my comment above. Basically it is that D+ can interact with the > > electron clouds surrounding the host Pd atoms at the surface, forming a > > quasi-chemical bond. D+ diffusing into the crystal lattice experiences > > balanced attraction (first approximation) and can diffuse through the > > lattice. To escape, however, two D+ must find each other at the surface, > > grab electrons, and form a D2 molecule which will be electrically neutral. > > This is endothermic but can occur when the surface population of D+ gets > > great enough and the internal temperature of the lattice becomes great > > enough. > > > > This is all basically true, but don't forget the following points. > Chemical reactions will continue even though the reaction is at > equilibrium. The thermodynamic parameters such as enthalpy and > entropy are state variables and are determined from bulk properties. > Yes, you have to heat Pd hydride to get the equilibrium to shift to > less H in the Pd, but even at equilibrium, adsorbtion-dissociation- > dissolution-recombination-desorbtion reactions are still ongoing. The > system is just balanced so that no _net_ concentration changes are > happening. [mc] After the Pd black surface is saturated with D+ by spillover migration. > > > I am also still waiting for a clarification of the role that > > > "deformation" plays in a determination of the interior > > > pressure of a cell. > > > > Please continue to wait. Patience will be required. As I stated previously, > > the "deformation" is mentioned in passing, is not quantified, and thus > > plays no part in the "determination of the interior pressure of the cell". > > This was done with cells prepared with proper instrumentation, which may > > not have been the same as used in the runs depicted in Fig 8 of the 1997 > > report. > > > > And don't forget that hydriding Pd causes the Pd to swell. That > induces its own deformation. To relate deformation back to pressure, > you have to know a lot of things, only one of which is how the > swelling affected the shape. > > > > As for my comments concerning tritium, let's start with the > > > fact that commercial heavy water contains detectable amounts > > > of tritium. You have to pay through the nose to have the > > > tritium concentration reduced if that is important to your > > > application. Do the A&Z papers address the question of > > > tritium contamination of the electrolyte? > > > > Not to my knowledge, and I think it irrelevant. The 1997 paper from the > > Proceedings of the Japan Academy (not the 56 page paper) makes it > > emphatically clear that 3T was not found in the Pd black by the closed QMS > > tests, clearly excluding the Rutherford reaction. The QMS measurements were > > made on Pd black removed from the capsule after a heat run was completed. > > There is no contact between the electrolyte and the Pd black, as should be > > clear from Fig. 5 of the 56 page report. > > > > Of course, I disagree with that conclusion. I see possible evidence > for the presence of T. More work/discussion is needed to clear the > issue up. [mc] I am ready to post my response to other comments by Kirk which deals with 3T. I am truncating the remainder of this composite post from Rich to save bandwidth as it contains material already in other posts. With this reply I am also posting a detailed discussion of mass spectrometry issues raised by Kirk. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 10:07:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09281; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:03:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:03:18 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: NLCX1140 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:11:12 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3322$3a0bd300$8291410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD32E7.8DACFB00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"VwkYY.0.fG2.Y1rsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD32E7.8DACFB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NLCX1140 Hydrogen Thyratron (tetrode) The CX1140 is Hydrogen Thyratron capable of blocking 25Kv peak and pulsed anode currents of 1000A I have no pin out data but I have the specs below configuration - Tetrode peak anode current - 1000A average anode current - 1.25A peak forward voltage - 25kV peak output power - 12.5 MW heating factor - 9x10^9 heater voltage - 6.3V heater current - 22A "Suitable for use at high pulse repetition rates, in parallel for higher powers, or for switching longer pulses. Hydrogen reservoir operating from the cathode heater supply is incorporated." Peak forward anode V =3D 25kV max Peak anode current =3D 1000A max Average anode current =3D 1.25A max Rate of rise of anode current =3D 5kA/us max Cathode connected to mid-point of heater Heater V =3D 6.3V Heater I =3D 21.5A Cathode heating time =3D 5 minutes NOTE: "X-rays are emitted by cx1140 from the region of the anode , but the radiation is usually reduced to a safe level by the metal panels of the equipment in which the tube operates." 1: Heater 2: Cathode 3: Grid1 4: Grid2 5: Heater Cap: Anode ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD32E7.8DACFB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NLCX1140
 

NLCX1140 Hydrogen Thyratron (tetrode)

The CX1140 is Hydrogen Thyratron capable of blocking 25Kv peak and
pulsed anode currents of 1000A
I have no pin out data but I have the specs below

configuration - Tetrode
peak anode current - 1000A
average anode current - 1.25A
peak forward voltage - 25kV
peak output power - 12.5 MW
heating factor - 9x10^9
heater voltage - 6.3V
heater current - 22A


"Suitable for use at high pulse repetition rates, in parallel for
 higher powers, or for switching longer pulses. Hydrogen reservoir
 operating from the cathode heater supply is incorporated."

Peak forward anode V =3D 25kV max
Peak anode current =3D 1000A max
Average anode current =3D 1.25A max
Rate of rise of anode current =3D 5kA/us max

Cathode connected to mid-point of heater
Heater V =3D 6.3V
Heater I =3D 21.5A
Cathode heating time =3D 5 minutes

NOTE: "X-rays are emitted by cx1140 from the region of the anode , =
but
the radiation is usually reduced to a safe level by the metal panels
of the equipment in which the tube operates."


1: Heater
2: Cathode
3: Grid1
4: Grid2
5: Heater
Cap: Anode
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD32E7.8DACFB00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 10:09:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05339; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:04:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:04:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Nike Radars Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:41:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3326$6db82380$8291410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD32EB.C1594B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"OB-xK2.0.LJ1.r2rsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD32EB.C1594B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.wp.com/ethelen/radars.html ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD32EB.C1594B80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Nike Radars.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Nike Radars.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.wp.com/ethelen/radars.html Modified=0085DA552633BD01CB ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD32EB.C1594B80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 10:11:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09423; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:03:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:03:38 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: A Real Hydrogen Thyratron for Scott (to build?) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:56:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3328$9c44b9a0$8291410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD32ED.EFE5E1A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tSZ2_3.0.0J2.u1rsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD32ED.EFE5E1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://tempest.ece.ucdavis.edu/atri/lisa/lisa.html ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD32ED.EFE5E1A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="DoD Multidisciplinary University Research Initiative (MURI).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DoD Multidisciplinary University Research Initiative (MURI).url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://tempest.ece.ucdavis.edu/atri/lisa/lisa.html Modified=C03003562833BD0162 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD32ED.EFE5E1A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 10:19:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07546; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:16:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:16:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:14:31 -0800 Message-Id: <199802061814.KAA26496 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle Resent-Message-ID: <"jgAI_.0.or1.SDrsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Can anyone provide an answer for the following puzzle? > >Let's say we have 1 cubic foot of an ideal gas in a cylinder chamber >pressing against a piston at 200 psi (and there is 0 psi behind the >piston). The gas is then allowed to accelerate the piston overcoming its >inertia undergoing adiabatic expansion. Upon reaching a point where the >gas has doubled its volume (2 cu ft). Would the gas pressure at that point >in time be the same regardless of initial temperature or would a higher >temperature gas at the same initial 200 psi suffer less pressure loss once >its volume has doubled? (Obviously, in order to have the same pressure at >a higher temperature, there would have to be less gas in the setup.) > There are simple answers, and complicated answers, depends on how far into the nitty gritty you want to go. ie, the temperature of the gas is changing over the interval, so the wall temperature is a factor in any real expeeriment as it will be heating or cooling the gas depending on their relative temp. Also, you will develop a temperature and pressure gradient in the accelerating gas, similar to the cooling effect with altitude of our atmosphere. But the short answer would be that the higher temperature system is always the more efficient for thermodynamics. ie, real gas is not perfectly ideal. Aside from that, if you say "ideal" and mean it, and we ignore temperature transfer, then the only thing to wonder about is the gradient in density because the situation is dynamic. But I think the two cases will be the same, ie follow the same density profile, but with different density values. Again, only true if "ideal gas" is held to. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 10:31:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16500; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:26:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:26:34 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34DB5553.C8339F10 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:24:19 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle References: <19980206173259.AAA13995 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rFRtV.0.c14.ONrsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clinton Rawls wrote: > Let's say we have 1 cubic foot of an ideal gas ... Perfect Gas Law: PV=nRT P = pressure in atmospheres V = volume in liters n = number of moles R = Gas Constant (0.0821) T = temperature in degrees K -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 11:10:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16663; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:07:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:07:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980206130708.01282bf4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 13:07:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Run 10 results In-Reply-To: References: <34DA73DA.7D86 interlaced.net> <3.0.1.32.19980205175807.0073544c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QA4pk2.0.F44.Yzrsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm still on Schaeffer's idea that the H atoms are making their own water by drifting to the chamber walls and reducing the metal oxides they find there. Maybe this is the reason that Mills chamber is so big. With the filament in the center of a big chamber, the H atoms might recombine into H2 molecules before they can drift to the chamber walls. Another thing that would affect the mean free path of the H atom is the gas pressure. Does anybody know what pressure is typically used in the H thyratrons? Maybe I should conduct a filament life experiment with a relatively high H gas pressure and see if that makes it last a lot longer...? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 11:32:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01528; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:29:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:29:40 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:28:46 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: free energy is fun but don't forget V day Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"3rFr22.0.mN.ZIssq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I didn't valentine Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 11:37:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21985; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:33:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:33:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DB645D.47A7 t-link.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:28:29 -1000 From: Alastair Couper Reply-To: aquarius t-link.net Organization: aquarian electronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Plasma tube experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HTlZj3.0.RN5.aMssq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to all for the insights. >What would this do that a bubble level wouldn't? >- Rick Monteverde Apparently, not much! Although a small tube has a much quicker time constant than a bubble level. I have looked at some other argon tubes in which I was able to excite, through careful waveshaping, various beading effects that showed group behavior, like some sort of acoustic mode. This tube also shows some beading as well, and I wanted to find out if there was any connection with the rising arc behavior, but it is clear that is not so. Thanks, and I'm glad to be reading along with these other exploits.. (Also- thanks for pointing out the typo in my "Reply To" field) Regards, Alastair Couper Maui, Hawaii From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 11:55:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22865; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:38:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:38:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DB6677.43A6 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 14:37:27 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle References: <19980206173259.AAA13995 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b5cdd3.0.3b5.sQssq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clinton Rawls wrote: > > Can anyone provide an answer for the following puzzle? > > Let's say we have 1 cubic foot of an ideal gas in a cylinder chamber > pressing against a piston at 200 psi (and there is 0 psi behind the > piston). The gas is then allowed to accelerate the piston overcoming its > inertia undergoing adiabatic expansion. Upon reaching a point where the > gas has doubled its volume (2 cu ft). Would the gas pressure at that point > in time be the same regardless of initial temperature or would a higher > temperature gas at the same initial 200 psi suffer less pressure loss once > its volume has doubled? Man, is my thermo rusty, Clinton! However, for your case, it we assume a REVERSIBLE ADIABATIC PROCESS IN A PERFECT GAS: You have given the initial pressure, P1, and volume, V1. If the mass of the gas in the volume doesn't change (no leaks!) then you can use P1 times V1(raised to the k power) = a constant. Here, k is the ratio of specific heats (C_p/C_v) and is equal to 1.4 for gasses such as air, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, CO and ,roughly, other perfect gases with two atoms per molecule. So, we could write your problem as: P1 * V1^k = P2 * V2^k where P2 and V2 are the after-expansion values. So, if we want to know P2, we could use: P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^k . Since you said V2 was 2 * V1, we can write: P2 = P1 * (1/2)^1.4 = P1 * 0.379, or, about 38 percent of the initial pressure. Notice that the temperatures were not required- the pressure ratio is the same for any initial temperature, as long as the gas is in the near-perfect-gas region of its properties. If you want to know the temperatures involved, use the perfect gas law that John Steck posted a while ago. You may be able to look in an old engineering thermo book and find some units you like better. If you can't find any, "come back" and I might be able to rig up your preferred units. Now, if I screwed this up, it will just go to show you how long I have been out of school and away from rocket engines! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 14:09:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15233; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:54:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:54:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DB85DD.5D1 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:51:25 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle References: <19980206173259.AAA13995 default> <34DB6677.43A6@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ySEMy1.0.sj3.OQusq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just wrote: > Man, is my thermo rusty, Clinton! However, for your case, it we assume > a REVERSIBLE ADIABATIC PROCESS IN A PERFECT GAS: > > You have given the initial pressure, P1, and volume, V1. If the mass > of the gas in the volume doesn't change (no leaks!) then you can use > > P1 times V1(raised to the k power) = a constant. > > Here, k is the ratio of specific heats (C_p/C_v) and is equal to 1.4 > for gasses such as air, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, CO and ,roughly, > other perfect gases with two atoms per molecule. > > So, we could write your problem as: > > P1 * V1^k = P2 * V2^k > > where P2 and V2 are the after-expansion values. So, if we want to > know P2, we could use: > > P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^k . > > Since you said V2 was 2 * V1, we can write: > > P2 = P1 * (1/2)^1.4 = P1 * 0.379, or, about 38 percent of > > the initial pressure. Notice that the temperatures were not required- > the pressure ratio is the same for any initial temperature, as long as > the gas is in the near-perfect-gas region of its properties. > > If you want to know the temperatures involved, use the perfect gas > law that John Steck posted a while ago. You may be able to look in > an old engineering thermo book and find some units you like better. > If you can't find any, "come back" and I might be able to rig up your > preferred units. Clinton, I went on and combined the perfect gas law with the reversible adiabatic case and got: If you know the initial temperature, T1 and volume, V1, and the final volume, V2, then the final temperature, T2 would be: T2 = T1 * (V1/V2)^(k-1) (that's the volume ratio raised to the k-1 power). So, if V2 = 2 * V1, T2 = T1 * (1/2)^0.4 = T1 * 0.758 , or, about 76 percent of T1 Just rememember, USE ABSOLUTE PRESSURES AND TEMPERATURES!! (Like, pounds per inch^2 absolute and degrees Rankine or, newtons per meter^2 (pascals) absolute and degrees Kelvin.) ---and the right "k" value for your particular gas! Someone better check me on this, I'm still brushing cobwebs off my face from wherever I pulled this stuff from! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 14:45:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21137; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:39:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:39:49 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19980206222402.1c6f9aa8 po.pacific.net.sg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:39:47 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: A bit of space Resent-Message-ID: <"1xGhb2.0.4A5.o4vsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MPowers wrote: > But at the moment Nzed is all I can see as > my next destination. Unless someone has a > better idea ?? Greetings, and welcome back. How about the Big Island? Some fairly inexpensive land (you like lava, right?), nice microclimate choices, deep harbor for inbound shipments, excellent coffee. Plus, I can come over from time to time to peek at what you're building. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 14:54:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29478; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:48:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:48:54 -0800 From: "Clinton Rawls" To: Subject: Vortex behavior... Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:50:40 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980206224813.AAA16268 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"_dXuR1.0.HC7.LDvsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings all! Here's a test of your knowledge of vortex behavior. What happens when you heat the outside of a vortex generation chamber. We all know that the gases at the core of the chamber will experience an increase in temps but does it also experience a sustained increase in tangential velocity at the core for as long as heat is applied? If not, why not? If so, why? Is the pressure of the gas leaving the chamber at the core higher than when heat is not applied even though no increase in pressure occurs at the periphery? Explain. Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 15:02:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24004; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:48:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:48:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34DB645D.47A7 t-link.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:47:42 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Plasma tube experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"y7reK1.0.ss5.HDvsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alastair - > I have looked at some other argon tubes in > which I was able to excite, through careful > waveshaping, various beading effects that > showed group behavior, like some sort of > acoustic mode. There is (or was) a large arched plasma tube display at the Exploratorium in San Francisco that shows this banding effect quite distinctly. I assume it's driven by HVAC (possibly built by Robert Dollard? - Tesla coil gugu...) Fantastic display - multicolored discharges in a tube maybe 8" or more in diameter, several feet long, and arching up 6' or so in an inverted 'U'. You can put your hands on it and move the discharges around a little bit. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 15:10:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26467; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:01:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:01:26 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:00:21 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Alastair's g-wave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"lXU923.0.RT6.5Pvsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have a basic question about the Hodowanec and similar attempts to detect gravity waves. How does one separate the signals which are possibly of distant and/or gravitational origin from those arising out of heat in the detector element (dielectric) at room temperature? I'd feel a little better about the chances of that if the detector was down as close as you can get to absolute zero, but even that leaves questions of noise generated in the leads going to the first opamp. I read claims that the signals known as 1/f noise aren't properly explained. But isn't that really just the sound of the electrically sensitive matter randomly jiggling about from heat? I've done an experiment reading capacitor charge with the cap temperature held closer to constant than the outside ambient temperature as the day progressed, and the charge curve wants to follow the *outside* temperature changes more than the ones directly experienced by the capacitor over the interval. There's something ferroelectric or piezoelectric (from mechanical stress due to heating and cooling) about the surrounding area that apparently creates a field that charges the cap. With heat driven changes so overwhelmingly involved not only directly but also indirectly, how can anything 'interesting' be sifted out from behind all this noise at room temperature? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 15:34:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08903; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:23:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:23:54 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:23:56 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Laithwaite gyro questions Resent-Message-ID: <"ceX0e3.0.vA2.8kvsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts - Can anyone help me clear up a some points of (my) confusion regarding the claims that the gyro setup designed by Eric Laithwaite loses weight? I understand that the gyros are spun around and they rise up on movable arms mounted to a central shaft or hub, then they are forced back down again by tracks or cams to repeat as they continue to rotate. My question is, when is the weight loss alleged to appear? Is it during the time the arms are rising up, or only when they are being forced back down in opposition to their tendency to rise? I'm assuming it isn't in the constant case, because then the movable arms would be superfluous. And does the weight of the assembly supposedly increase for part of the cycle so that the net over multiple cycles of raising and lowering is zero, or is there supposedly a net loss over multiple cycles? Thanks, - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 16:22:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25698; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:19:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:19:12 -0800 Message-ID: <19980207001814.25552.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.209] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net Subject: What happened to America? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:18:14 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"zvDEV.0.SH6.-Xwsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello all, Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. Does anyone know how practical and effective this technology is? I would like to build such a device as a procaution against such police-state tactics. Any advice wiuld be appreciated. Peter Aldo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 16:44:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10422; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:35:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:35:42 -0800 (PST) From: alansch zip.com.au (Alan Schneider) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 00:34:07 GMT Message-ID: <34dbb5a2.9859476 mail.zip.com.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA10365 Resent-Message-ID: <"wkEoV1.0.lY2.Qnwsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:00:21 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >I have a basic question about the Hodowanec and similar attempts to detect >gravity waves. How does one separate the signals which are possibly of >distant and/or gravitational origin from those arising out of heat in the >detector element (dielectric) at room temperature? I'd feel a little better >about the chances of that if the detector was down as close as you can get >to absolute zero, but even that leaves questions of noise generated in the >leads going to the first opamp. I read claims that the signals known as 1/f >noise aren't properly explained. But isn't that really just the sound of >the electrically sensitive matter randomly jiggling about from heat? >I've done an experiment reading capacitor charge with the cap temperature >held closer to constant than the outside ambient temperature as the day >progressed, and the charge curve wants to follow the *outside* temperature >changes more than the ones directly experienced by the capacitor over the >interval. There's something ferroelectric or piezoelectric (from mechanical >stress due to heating and cooling) about the surrounding area that >apparently creates a field that charges the cap. With heat driven changes >so overwhelmingly involved not only directly but also indirectly, how can >anything 'interesting' be sifted out from behind all this noise at room >temperature? Could it simply be thermal drift in your measuring circuitry (which is presumably *outside* of the box) that you are seeing? As far as noise generated in the leads and preamp; why not cool them down *with* the capacitor and just have a high level signal lead (and power supply) coming out into ambient. As an initial test, just heave the whole lot (cap and amps) into your fridge freezer and leave it to reach thermal equilibrium for a few hours before you start measuring. That should be just as well shielded as your metal toolbox as well as being at (relatively) constant and low temperature. Then, if that works, you can start playing around with liquid N2 and other such exotica. BTW if the cap voltage is following external ambient temperature changes even though thoroughly isolated from same and other sources of error have been ruled out, that is an interesting phenomenon in its own right which just begs for a rational explanation! As far as the 1/f noise being thermal in origin, hasn't someone theorised somewhere (Hodowanec ???) that it may in fact arise from gravitational fluctuations? or something else? Cheers, Alan Schneider From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:11:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02175; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:58:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:58:17 -0800 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:52:30 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Vortex-L Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BfzpJ1.0.rX.d6xsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How much contribution does the meter make? Bias current if buffered, charge injection due to switched cap from end if not. There are other charge sources possible from an electronic meter, those are just two. Suggestion: Use a mechanical microammeter. J On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > I have a basic question about the Hodowanec and similar attempts to detect > gravity waves. How does one separate the signals which are possibly of > distant and/or gravitational origin from those arising out of heat in the > detector element (dielectric) at room temperature? I'd feel a little better > about the chances of that if the detector was down as close as you can get > to absolute zero, but even that leaves questions of noise generated in the > leads going to the first opamp. I read claims that the signals known as 1/f > noise aren't properly explained. But isn't that really just the sound of > the electrically sensitive matter randomly jiggling about from heat? > > I've done an experiment reading capacitor charge with the cap temperature > held closer to constant than the outside ambient temperature as the day > progressed, and the charge curve wants to follow the *outside* temperature > changes more than the ones directly experienced by the capacitor over the > interval. There's something ferroelectric or piezoelectric (from mechanical > stress due to heating and cooling) about the surrounding area that > apparently creates a field that charges the cap. With heat driven changes > so overwhelmingly involved not only directly but also indirectly, how can > anything 'interesting' be sifted out from behind all this noise at room > temperature? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:40:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12250; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:36:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:36:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34DBBB4A.1A7C gorge.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:39:22 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 10 results References: <199802062335.PAA11827 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fZu5J2.0.K_2.vgxsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > I'm still on Schaeffer's idea that the H atoms are making their own water > by drifting to the chamber walls and reducing the metal oxides they find > there. > Perhaps the filament problem should be solved first. As two others have already suggested, why not bring the chamber to operating temperature, using the heater, (with the filament COLD) then run hydrogen through as a "getter" for the oxides on the walls. (all this without KNO3, KNO2, or other active ingredient) This relates to a (much) earlier discussion re hydrogen "cleaning" by NASA. Once cleaning is thoroughly completed, all "dirty" hydrogen could be pumped out, clean hydrogen let in, and then heat the filament. If the filamant didn't burn out, then you could try the catalyst. If that doesn't work, how about a tungsten rod, or thick wire. Tungsten welding rod maybe? The key issues seem to be: 1. Hot (incandescent?) tungsten -- to get hydrogen atoms from H2. 2. Potassium vapor -- to catalyse hydrino formation. 3. very low pressure hydrogen. I haven't seen any reason for the nitrate, or nitrite. Why not a tungsten rod, heating potassium *metal* to vaporization? Hope this helps. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:40:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10669; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:30:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:30:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34DBB93A.40721511 ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 14:30:34 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What happened to America? References: <19980207001814.25552.qmail hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f6k2K1.0.Uc2.daxsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Try to find "Secrets of Cold War Technology - Project HAARP and BEYOND" by Gerry Vassilatos On the back cover ISBN 0-945685-20-3 and another number inside the front cover ISBN 0-934685-17-3 published by BSRF http://www.borderlands.com/index.htm John Berry Peter Aldo wrote: > Hello all, > Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of > America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their > cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in > order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. > Does anyone know how practical and effective this technology is? > I would like to build such a device as a procaution against such > police-state tactics. > Any advice wiuld be appreciated. > > Peter Aldo > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:47:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19590; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:15 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34dbb5a2.9859476 mail.zip.com.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:36:07 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"RNTax3.0.zn4.8hxsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Alan - > BTW if the cap voltage is following > external ambient temperature changes > even though thoroughly isolated from same > and other sources of error have been ruled > out, that is an interesting phenomenon in > its own right which just begs for a > rational explanation! Well my experiment wasn't so rigorous as to rule out possible errors like having the test equipment at the same temperature as the caps, EMI, etc. That would be an obvoius thing to try. I'm not sure the thermal error induced in the DMM would be enough to account for the changes I read. Other experiments by T.T. Brown were run in a tunnel of some sort, a steel EMI shield chamber, etc. Those results still showed a daily wave, but the exterior temperature wasn't given along with the voltage graphs. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:57:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16322; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:52:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:52:29 -0800 From: alansch zip.com.au (Alan Schneider) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 01:52:07 GMT Message-ID: <34e1bd7d.14813272 mail.zip.com.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA16301 Resent-Message-ID: <"kGSD.0.x-3.Svxsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:36:07 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Alan - > > > BTW if the cap voltage is following > > external ambient temperature changes > > even though thoroughly isolated from same > > and other sources of error have been ruled > > out, that is an interesting phenomenon in > > its own right which just begs for a > > rational explanation! > >Well my experiment wasn't so rigorous as to rule out possible errors like >having the test equipment at the same temperature as the caps, EMI, etc. >That would be an obvoius thing to try. I'm not sure the thermal error >induced in the DMM would be enough to account for the changes I read. Other >experiments by T.T. Brown were run in a tunnel of some sort, a steel EMI >shield chamber, etc. Those results still showed a daily wave, but the >exterior temperature wasn't given along with the voltage graphs. Damn shame that. Just had another thought though; These babies are said/thought/suspected to respond to gravitational waves/changes. How about tides. Is it not possible or even likely that Solar/lunar tides would give a diurnal variation which may well appear to closely track ambient temperature. Looking at T.T Brown's results, is there any sign of a superimposed periodicity on the "daily" wave which could correspond to lunar tides? Cheers, Alan From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:59:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21937; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:16 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980207001814.25552.qmail hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:54:12 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: [off topic] What happened to America? Resent-Message-ID: <"DbsOY2.0.dM5.2yxsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter - > I would like to build such a device as a > procaution against such police-state > tactics. As the getaway vehicle on your next job, use an older model car which doesn't use a computer. ;) I'm sure the victims of accidents during high speed police chases would disagree with you that putting the ability to remotely disable a vehicle in the hands of the police isn't a good idea. I'm all for this and other non-violent or non-lethal means of bringing down suspected criminals. What would be the legitimate objection to the police having a 'gun' that would only 'kill' cars? They already have guns for use against people, and that's a far more grim reality than having an electronic car-stopper. Just the other day here a crazed fellow with a couple of kitchen knives was gunned down as he approached a group of police officers. The police kept shooting as the suspect fell to his knees after being struck by the first few rounds - "to make sure the threat to us was stopped". This horrible incident that has pitted Honolulu citizens and our police against each other could have turned out very differently if the police had been armed with and trained in the use of effective non-lethal weapons. As it was, all they seemed to have at their disposal for their legitimate protection were lethal weapons - their guns. I think the right technology can allow us to have it both ways: stop the bad guys non-lethally while protecting the rights of citizens generally. That's wouldn't be an indicator of a "police state", but rather of a civilized and compassionate society. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 18:11:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17469; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:57:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:57:21 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:56:36 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: What happened to America? New world of crime? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Resent-Message-ID: <"o4r1h2.0.hG4.zzxsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. Does anyone know how practical and effective this technology is? I would like to build such a device as a procaution against such police-state tactics. Any advice wiuld be appreciated. Peter, I can see that technology geting into the wrong hands and opening up a whole new world of crime! Just think, a sicko could go riding at night, find a good looking girl, wait till he followed her to a part of the road where there were no people around and then disable her car with the push of a button! That device could be used for countless crimes. It could be aimed at low flying aircraft also. I hope it does not get developed. Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 19:48:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03991; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:35:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:35:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980206231624.00b17d58 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:16:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NRp2M3.0.C-.fPzsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:00 PM 2/6/98 -1000, you wrote: >I've done an experiment reading capacitor charge with the cap temperature >held closer to constant than the outside ambient temperature as the day >progressed, and the charge curve wants to follow the *outside* temperature >changes more than the ones directly experienced by the capacitor over the >interval. There's something ferroelectric or piezoelectric (from mechanical >stress due to heating and cooling) about the surrounding area that >apparently creates a field that charges the cap. With heat driven changes >so overwhelmingly involved not only directly but also indirectly, how can >anything 'interesting' be sifted out from behind all this noise at room >temperature? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > I imagine both people were influenced by Charles Brush's experiments with complex minerals. He would do calorimetry on the rocks and measures self heating effects. This was supposed to be due to the effects of gravity... Someone a few thousand messages ago posted an URL to Brush's papers. Have fun digging. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 20:02:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05700; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:49:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:49:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980207034806.008eff74 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:48:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: [off topic] What happened to America? Resent-Message-ID: <"nimfM.0.zO1.-czsq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wouldn't this fry all cars in the vicinity including that of the frier? Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 20:06:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11095; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:02:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:02:08 -0800 From: HLafonte aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:01:56 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [off topic] What happened to America? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Resent-Message-ID: <"kK0at1.0.Gj2._ozsq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-06 22:55:04 EST, you write: << Wouldn't this fry all cars in the vicinity including that of the frier? Ed Strojny >> It must be extremely directional, straight line. Butch From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 21:08:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18869; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:05:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:05:13 -0800 Message-ID: <34DBEA91.6743 t-link.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 19:01:05 -1000 From: Alastair Couper Reply-To: aquarius t-link.net Organization: aquarian electronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Alastair's Gwave experiments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x7j-P2.0.lc4.9k-sq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rick, >William Blake wrote: >If a fool persists in his folly, he will become wise. I agree that thermal effects are definately a part of the capacitor sensing technique. First I want to be plain about the fact that I don't have a better term for what is being measured than "gravity", but I am convinced it is not just noise. I simply use that term as the effects are not shielded out by anything that I can do, so I assume that it is akin to gravity. The basic facts are 1) an electrolytic capacitor makes a very small voltage into a high resistance external load. 2)that voltage goes up with temperature 3) the capacitor's uF value generally goes up (at room values) with temperature 4) the higher the microfarad rating of the cap, the higher the voltage generated, given that it is a decent unit and has very low leakage 5)the leakage goes up with temperature. All capacitors show this small voltage regardless of material, but the electrolytics were easiest to use for starters. The physical size of the cap is not a direct factor. I used a temperature controlled box of heavy steel, in which was placed an insulated box of steel, in which was placed an insulated box of aluminum that contained whatever was being measured. A temp probe showed a tenth of a degree change inside with a 20 degree change in lab temp. I saw variations which had no correlation to temperature, but there were at times periods where a diurnal variation was seen which did vaguely track the temperature outside, but then the pattern would change the next week. T.T. Brown did essentially this at three places- UNC, Berkely tunnels, and U of H, and showed the same thing. If this is a thermal effect, then we have too limited a view of temperature as being strictly a measure of disorder. My background in college days was in signals and noise, and later on I spent time at both Fluke and Tektronix designing instrument frontends. I'm no whiz to be sure, but I have a feeling for this, and I am convinced there is signal to measured. Most of my work was done using the capacitors in a circuit which would allow for shorter period measurements- from 1 sec to several minutes. I used spectral analysis to watch the changing patterns, and again couldn't find a way that random thermal effects could account for what I saw. And there were those times when some real major fluctuations occured which made me jump for the zeroing knob on the chart recorder- there was a big "something or other" that reccured three times over several hours in a very regular pattern, and again a few days later. This was during a period when there were tests of both HAARP and the Navy megawatt sonar monstosity. It must also be pointed out that eddy currents in the plates of the capacitors are part of this as well, being excited by ELF E/M waves. They are only partially shieldable. But it all must end up as fodder for the Journal Of Irreproducible Results, as there is no control over the inputs, so no experiments can be repeated. My efforts at affecting the state of the equipment by means of various coils from outside the shield were unsuccessful. I'm concentrating on other experiments at the moment, keeping this line on the back burner until it seems to answer a more pressing need. For now, aloha, Alastair Couper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 21:30:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21947; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:25:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980206232547.0086dd10 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:25:47 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Run 10 results In-Reply-To: <34DBBB4A.1A7C gorge.net> References: <199802062335.PAA11827 mx1.eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yNiV43.0.mM5.41_sq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:39 PM 2/6/98 -0800, Tom Miller wrote: >why not bring the chamber to operating temperature, >using the heater, (with the filament COLD) then run hydrogen through >as a "getter" for the oxides on the walls. I am willing to try this idea but, if Schaeffer's model is correct, it won't work. Only atomic H is active enuf to get oxygen off the walls. Only the hot filament makes atomic H. It's a catch-22. But here's the real issue: Why try to make the filament last longer when there is no sign of the purported excess heat during the hour or so that it does last? In other words, does anybody seriously think that our relatively short-lived filament is preventing the excess heat effect from occurring? Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 23:28:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18496; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:23:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:23:47 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP info Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:23:26 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34dfdfbe.146672534 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <01bd30ce$de6af670$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> In-Reply-To: <01bd30ce$de6af670$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vqdaV2.0.wW4.2m0tq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:09:28 -0500, George Holz wrote: >The following URL contains some interesting pictures & diagrams. > >http://blacklightpower.com/cgi/byteserver.pl/blp93-116.pdf > >p107 (left side) may be the reactor that Scott is trying to reproduce. > >p108 other reactor photos? > >p109 is a diagram of a proposed(?) 1500C reactor. > >George Holz george varisys.com >Varitronics Systems > I note in this document also on page "98", in the table under space/process heating, that they have 20 hp - 1200 kW thermal. This must be a typo. (20 hp = 14.9 kW not 1200), so something is amiss, even taking (conversion?) efficiencies into account. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 00:20:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10076; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:16:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:16:29 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34e1bd7d.14813272 mail.zip.com.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:15:24 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"1Yqy9.0.MT2.RX1tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Alan - > Looking at T.T Brown's results, is there > any sign of a superimposed periodicity on > the "daily" wave which could correspond to > lunar tides? I made up a tide chart for a few of the days of one of the TTB Honolulu experiment charts, and saw a good match to the tides for about three days, then it veered off. This is kind of what TTB wrote, that it looked like lunar and other celestial correlation, but then it would fail in the long run leaving him perplexed as to what was really happening. There's these notions that it isn't just having the gravitational source directly pulling on the dielectric and surroundings, but that it has something to do with various angles between the earth and the other bodies, almost like astrology. There's more on this on Alastair's web site. This is frustrating to me. I think that there might be something interesting lurking in this somewhere, but I don't know what steps to take now to ferret it out. It seems like heat just swamps everything. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 00:46:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13249; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:40:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:40:22 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34DBEA91.6743 t-link.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:39:25 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Alastair's Gwave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"Yw-fB.0.wE3.qt1tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Alastair - > If this is a thermal effect, then we have too > limited a view of temperature as being > strictly a measure of disorder. Along the lines that the temperature outside might be causing electrical fields to appear for various reasons, then other factors that move charge around might come into play too, like local winds, precipitation, dust/vapor/pollution clouds, etc. Perhaps these things could produce the kinds of divergence we see from a straight tracking of simple outside temperature. > [...] I have a feeling for this, and I am > convinced there is signal to measured. I'm encouraged to see you say that with your background in electronics and measurement. I think there's something there too, but I'm less sure about how to get it to stand out cleanly from the interference, and how to positively correlate it to something. > My efforts at affecting the state of the > equipment by means of various coils from > outside the shield were unsuccessful. Did you or anyone try 'static' DC generators to spoof heavily shielded caps? > I'm concentrating on other experiments at > the moment, keeping this line on the back > burner until it seems to answer a more > pressing need. Hodowanec type detectors? What do you think about 'heat noise' within a resistive or dielectric material? How can we be sure that that isn't all a Hodowanec picks up? I was fooling around with superconductors a while ago, and read somebody's piece about the "roar" that can be heard inside ordinary materials dropping down to a whisper when the temperature gets very very low. I'd like to pursue the Hodowanec approach more if I thought it would lead to some distinctly non-noise not-EMI results. Do you have good reason to believe that it does? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 00:49:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13868; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:45:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:45:03 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:43:57 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: What happened to America? New world of crime? Resent-Message-ID: <"Fca4T2.0.YO3.By1tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Butch - > I can see that technology geting into the > wrong hands and opening up a whole new > world of crime! Same could be said for guns. Is said, in fact. But I still think it's wrong. I think this is the kind of thing that will save many lives and you won't really hear about that, but you *will* hear about the novelty and the horror of when someone finally does use it to commit a road rape, robbery, etc. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 01:18:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16791; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:10:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 01:10:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DC2360.4819 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 01:03:28 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980205234259.00b08a78 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GlKzn3.0.H64.xJ2tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Check out the following URL > http://redshift.vif.com/V05N1EPH.pdf Re: Induction Produces Aharanov Bohm Effect J.P. Wesley, Apeiron Vol 5, No 1-2, Jan-Apr 1988 Firstly, the thought experiment presented in this paper is not the Aharanov-Bohm effect. The A-B effect deals with the phase shift of the wave function along dual paths for a single electron. This experiment deals with the paths of two separate particles. Secondly, the author primarily considers the momentum and energy of the mass of the particle, and only indirectly considers the momentum and energy in the electromagnetic field. Total momemtum = mv + qA -- where qA is momentum in the EM field. Total energy = (mv^2)/2 + (qv)dot(A) -- where (qv)dot(A) is the potential energy in the EM field. An electron shot into this field will in no case follow the path shown in figure 1, unless acted on by an outside force -- presumably some kind of mechanical force. If an electron is made to follow the path of figure 1, the math in the paper correctly demonstrates the work done (by or on) the outside forces which must have been applied to create the path. The paths chosen by the author are instructive. In the second and third quadrants of figure 1, changes in momentum only result from changes in the momentum in the EM field (qA). In the first and fourth quadrants changes in the total momentum only result from changes in the mechanical momemtum of the particle. The time rate of change of the electromagnetic momentum, in quadrants 2 and 3 of figure 1, is properly given by equation 15. However, it could be more clearly stated, if one of the factors of r in the denominator of equation 15 is included in the factor K of equation 16 -- in which case K is the magnitude of momentum in the field. (Also, some confusion may result due to use of phi in equation 15 as a direction vector, and use of phi in equation 16 as the total flux in the coil). If the path is not broken into the separate parts shown in figure 1, the math becomes unduly complicated. But you can by graphical and numerical methods begin to see what would happen to an electron shot into this field, if the electron is not acted on by outside forces. If the mehanical momentum (mv) is relativley much larger than the electromagnetic momentum (qA), the electron upon entering the field will begin to slow down slightly and will dip slightly in toward the coil. Upon passing the coil the electron will speed up and will dip back out -- leaving the field with the same y axis position and velocity in the x direction with which it entered. If the electromagnetic momentum (qA) is relatively much larger than the mechanical momentum, the electron upon entering the field will slow down quickly and will dip further in toward the coil and come to a complete stop at a point on the x equal zero axis, where qA is exactly equal to mv. This is a point of unstable equilibrium. A slight perturbation toward the positive x direction will cause it to accelerate out of the field, and it will leave with the same y position and x direction velocity with which it entered. In any case, no work is ever done by this field. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 05:13:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08881; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 05:10:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 05:10:32 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34DC06AD.6337965B mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 07:01:01 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 10 results References: <199802062335.PAA11827 mx1.eskimo.com> <3.0.5.32.19980206232547.0086dd10@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H6bXY.0.bA2.4r5tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: ... In other words, does anybody seriously think that our relatively short-lived filament is preventing the excess heat effect from occurring? Hi Scott, There is a good chance that this is exactly what is happening. What "atmosphere" surrounds the filament in your apparatus? Moreover, where does hydrino formation occur -- at the filament, on the walls, in the vapor phase far from the filament? A better apparatus for this experiment would be a long stainless-steel tube which can be assembled (and heated) in sections. The source of K+ ions can be located some distance from the inlet so that it is hit by hot H2. Then where should the filament be located, before or after the K+ ion source? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 06:21:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18514; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:18:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:18:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Fw: Searching for Ultralight Electrons Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:12:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd33d2$7d8ec820$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"eQhvg3.0.CX4.iq6tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >There is a possibility that Nature allows production of Ultralight >Electron/Positron Pairs with charge +/- 1.602E-19 Coulombs and a rest >mass/energy of 0.5 to 1.5 electron volts. > >Under acceleration of a potential V the relativistic mass Mrel = >Mo[(eV/Mo*c^2)+1]which >would make them hard to spot in day-to-day electronics work. > >It is thought that R.A. Millikan observed these >in his early charge measurement experiments. > >Such particles tend to explain the "Cold Fusion" and related effects. > >The point is that light in a wavelength of about a micron (1.24 ev) out to >0.62 microns >or so,shining on a Cs-K-Sb or Na-Cs-K-Sb photocathode MIGHT produce these >Light Lepton (LL +/-) pairs, and suitable experiments might >allow one to isolate the positive one, that at >present may be mistaken for a positive ion. > >Quantum mechanics allows pair production at >n*Me*alpha^n^' or n*Me/alpha^n' where alpha is the fine structure constant >0.00729729, and Me is the rest mass of the electron,as can be seen from >studying the particles observed in high energy physics. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 07:21:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27492; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:10:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:10:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980207150927.008e8468 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 10:09:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Run 10 results Resent-Message-ID: <"oeQ5-.0.Pj6.nb7tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:07 PM 2/6/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: > >Maybe I should conduct a filament life experiment with a relatively high H >gas pressure and see if that makes it last a lot longer...? > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > Lower your target expectations (>50% OU) and use a more rugged filament (Pt or Ir). I would be ecstatic to get 5% OU at this stage. Once you get OU verified, then you can work on the filament life for tungsten. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 07:55:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05705; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:50:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:50:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Clinton Rawls" To: "John Steck" , Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:50:03 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980207154822.AAA17132 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"8IXOR.0.1P1.sA8tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks John! I knew there was a formula for such things but it has been many years since I had seen it. It turns out that the answer to my question is that temperature makes no difference. I used the formula as follows. By changing the number of moles to force the initial pressure to be 200 for both temperatures, I was able to determine that when the volume doubled, the pressure was reduced by half. This is true for all temperatures at least for an ideal gas. I would guess that results would be very similar for real gases as long as the range of values were far above the boiling point of the gas. Perfect Gas Law: PV=nRT P=nRT/V P = pressure in atmospheres 200 100 V = volume in liters 1 2 n = number of moles 8.1202 8.1202 R = Gas Constant (0.0821) 0.0821 0.0821 T = temperature in degrees K 300 300 n=PV/RT P 200 100 V 1 2 n 7.3820 7.382 R 0.0821 0.0821 T 330 330 Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls ---------- | From: John Steck | To: vortex-l eskimo.com | Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle | Date: Friday, February 06, 1998 12:24 PM | | Clinton Rawls wrote: | | > Let's say we have 1 cubic foot of an ideal gas ... | | Perfect Gas Law: | PV=nRT | | P = pressure in atmospheres | V = volume in liters | n = number of moles | R = Gas Constant (0.0821) | T = temperature in degrees K | | | -- | John E. Steck | Prototype Tooling | Motorola Inc. | From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 09:21:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21980; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:08:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:08:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DC8C73.703C interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:31:47 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle References: <19980207154822.AAA17132 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3GUET1.0.JN5.-J9tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clinton Rawls wrote: > I was able to determine that when the volume > doubled, the pressure was reduced by half. This is true for all > temperatures at least for an ideal gas. Sure it does, Clinton - FOR AN ISOTHERMAL PROCESS!! I thought you wanted an ADIABATIC PROCESS?? For an adiabatic process the gas will cool from the expansion. P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^k and, T2 = T1 * (V1/V2)^(k-1) where k = c_p/c_v ----- the ratio of specific heats--- = 1.4 for air. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 09:44:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28080; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:38:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:38:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Clinton Rawls" To: "Francis J. Stenger" , "John Steck" , Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:38:01 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980207173620.AAA25090 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"j4DxW3.0.fs6.3m9tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Frank! It looks like you spent some time on this and after thinking about it a little I realized that John's Perfect Gas Law formula may not be representing a reversible adiabatic expansion. But something like is what I was looking for because it allows me to keep the initial pressure and volume constant when using different temperatures by giving me the option of having a variable mass. As I showed in my latest post, when using that formula, the answer turned out to be that the resulting pressure change is exactly the inverse of the volume change. This tells me that no work was performed leaving the expanded gas with the same amount of enthalpy as before expansion which constitutes a free expansion and not adiabatic. Is there a formula that can give me adiabatic results that includes mass in the equation? Thanks John and Frank! Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls ---------- | From: Francis J. Stenger | To: vortex-l eskimo.com | Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle | Date: Friday, February 06, 1998 3:51 PM | | I just wrote: | | > Man, is my thermo rusty, Clinton! However, for your case, it we assume | > a REVERSIBLE ADIABATIC PROCESS IN A PERFECT GAS: | > | > You have given the initial pressure, P1, and volume, V1. If the mass | > of the gas in the volume doesn't change (no leaks!) then you can use | > | > P1 times V1(raised to the k power) = a constant. | > | > Here, k is the ratio of specific heats (C_p/C_v) and is equal to 1.4 | > for gasses such as air, nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, CO and ,roughly, | > other perfect gases with two atoms per molecule. | > | > So, we could write your problem as: | > | > P1 * V1^k = P2 * V2^k | > | > where P2 and V2 are the after-expansion values. So, if we want to | > know P2, we could use: | > | > P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^k . | > | > Since you said V2 was 2 * V1, we can write: | > | > P2 = P1 * (1/2)^1.4 = P1 * 0.379, or, about 38 percent of | > | > the initial pressure. Notice that the temperatures were not required- | > the pressure ratio is the same for any initial temperature, as long as | > the gas is in the near-perfect-gas region of its properties. | > | > If you want to know the temperatures involved, use the perfect gas | > law that John Steck posted a while ago. You may be able to look in | > an old engineering thermo book and find some units you like better. | > If you can't find any, "come back" and I might be able to rig up your | > preferred units. | | Clinton, I went on and combined the perfect gas law with the reversible | adiabatic case and got: | | If you know the initial temperature, T1 and volume, V1, and the final | volume, V2, then the final temperature, T2 would be: | | T2 = T1 * (V1/V2)^(k-1) (that's the volume ratio raised to | the k-1 power). | | So, if V2 = 2 * V1, | | T2 = T1 * (1/2)^0.4 = T1 * 0.758 , or, about 76 percent of T1 | | Just rememember, USE ABSOLUTE PRESSURES AND TEMPERATURES!! | | (Like, pounds per inch^2 absolute and degrees Rankine or, | newtons per meter^2 (pascals) absolute and degrees Kelvin.) | ---and the right "k" value for your particular gas! | | Someone better check me on this, I'm still brushing cobwebs off my face | from wherever I pulled this stuff from! | | Frank Stenger | From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 10:44:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13316; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:38:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:38:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980207133428.00b07d98 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:34:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"psDd51.0.zF3.TeAtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:06 AM 2/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >Most of this paper is way beyond me, Keith, but I assume the theory >considers that neither A nor curl A really goes to ZERO in the >near-field of a FINITE skinny solenoid - they just get very small. >Isn't this indicated by equation (1) in the paper? I assume Bohm >considered this weak field in analyzing his results. It seems to this >non-physicist that neither the flux gradient nor curl A (= B) in >equation (3) VANISH - again, they just get very small, right? >Of course, maybe Bohm used a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY skinny solenoid!! > >Frank Stenger > Being a practical sort of guy, I'm sure you can convince yourself of the fact that one could achieve a high enough level of cancellation of the B field at points outside a solenoid ( particularly if a torroid is wound ) that for all intents and purposes there is no magnetic coupling. One could confirm this with a Hall type probe. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 11:02:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17774; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:55:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:55:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:49:31 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Run 10 results Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802071353_MC2-325A-2BA1 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"5SI86.0.aL4.KuAtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little wrote: ... In other words, does anybody seriously think that our relatively short-lived filament is preventing the excess heat effect from occurring? Sure! That's a definite maybe. I presume the filament is short lived because it is oxidizing or boiling away. The tungsten has to be going somewhere. It is contamination, and if there is oxygen that's even worse. I don't know about the BLP experiments, but all other CF experiments are extremely sensitive to contamination. Taylor Smith points out that the contamination is worst around the filament, which may be the locus of the purported hydrino formation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 11:05:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17735; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:55:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:55:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:49:48 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] What happened to America? Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802071353_MC2-325A-2BA2 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"jKvJa2.0.zK4.EuAtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Peter Aldo writes: Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. . . . I would like to build such a device as a precaution against such police-state tactics. For the life of me I cannot understand why this tactic is any worse than shooting out tires, or dropping sharp objects on the road, or parking a pair bulldozers in the middle of the highway as in the movie "Vanishing Point." Why is a high tech method more of an abuse of power??! High tech methods are no more or less threatening than old-fashioned methods. Tapping an Internet transmission is no worse than surreptitiously steaming open a hand written letter. An too-powerful government unrestrained by law is a threat to society, but it is not the only threat. I know what it like to see close friends and relatives smashed to a pulp by a drunken driver. Any advice would be appreciated. Get a horse. Walk. A highway is a public space, like a railway platform or an airport. Highways are by far the most dangerous and poorly controlled spaces in our society. More Americans have been killed in highway carnage than in all the wars in our history. I think highways should be monitored 24 hours a day and tightly controlled by the police. The major highways in Atlanta are out of control. People routinely drive 75 to 85 mph in some of the heaviest traffic east of L.A. They swerve in and out of lanes without signaling, they curse and threaten other drivers. I have seen drivers in the next lane guzzling whisky, or reading a newspaper while drinking coffee and gabbing on a cell phone. The Atlanta Journal recommended we establish a "Mabeline - Kamikaze Award" for women caught driving at 85 mph while looking in the rear view mirror to put on makeup -- a common sight! There has been a police crackdown lately, and I welcome it! Such insane behavior would not have been allowed in earlier eras. The "wild west" was mostly a myth. In the distant future automobiles will be fully automatic, that is, they will be driven by computers at precisely mandated speed limits and distances from other vehicles. Highway deaths will be reduced from tens of thousands to a few dozen per year. Every death will be a major event. It will be a serious offense to operate a car manually on a public road. (See Clarke's "Imperial Earth.") Before we reach that state of grace, we will invent many vital improvements along those lines, like radar proximity warning systems. In Europe, trucks carry on-board data recorders to monitor their speed, and the drivers are fined for exceeding speed limits and maximum daily hours of operation. I would welcome such innovations in the U.S. I would be very pleased to see every automobile and especially every heavy truck equipped with a tamper-proof on-board computer that automatically senses the local speed limit from roadside transponders. When you exceed the speed limit by 5 mph, it would log the speed and number of minutes. Data could be read out of the computers during annual safety inspections, or automatically when the vehicle passes a checkpoint. People who routinely speed should be fined thousands of dollars a year. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 11:15:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21285; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:10:47 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:08:08 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, RVargo1062@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: energy stock Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"I2diP1.0.TC5.k6Btq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A few weeks ago I posted a comment about the technology of BAAT Corp. They have an auto that gets 90 MPG. ref www.baat.com The price of the stock has shot up from 25 cents/share to over $3.00 / share since the time I posted. .. A 12 fold increase. What do you think? Is it real or is it another Galtek. I lost $5K in Galtek. My friend Ted K. loaded up with $20K of Batt at 25 cents a share. He told me to do so also. He is a bit nutz. I posted this and what Ted was doing on the vortex. I didn't follow through. My Galtex experience held me back. Ted feels good about the sock but, never the less, he is selling 1/2 to lock in his profits. Ted is now sitting on a quarter of million dollars from this deal. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 11:39:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26495; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:26:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, RVargo1062@aol.com Subject: Re: energy stock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"W9V4-3.0.bT6.FSBtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., and Frank, Went to the page. It does not say what BAAT technology IS!!! Are there patents or any tech infos? JHS Looks like it may be a gas-electric hybrid ... right? On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > A few weeks ago I posted a comment about the technology of BAAT Corp. They > have an auto that gets 90 MPG. ref www.baat.com > > The price of the stock has shot up from 25 cents/share to over $3.00 / share > since the time I posted. .. A 12 fold increase. What do you think? Is it > real or is it another Galtek. I lost $5K in Galtek. My friend Ted K. loaded > up with $20K of Batt at 25 cents a share. He told me to do so also. He is a > bit nutz. I posted this and what Ted was doing on the vortex. I didn't > follow through. My Galtex experience held me back. Ted feels good about the > sock but, never the less, he is selling 1/2 to lock in his profits. > > Ted is now sitting on a quarter of million dollars from this deal. > > Frank Znidarsic > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 12:15:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01691; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:57:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:57:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DCB93E.7ADF t-link.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:42:55 -1000 From: Alastair Couper Reply-To: aquarius t-link.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Capacitors as sensors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OJQjb.0.KQ.RoBtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, >What do you think about 'heat noise' within a resistive or dielectric >material? How can we be sure that that isn't all a Hodowanec picks up? I >was fooling around with superconductors a while ago, and read somebody's >piece about the "roar" that can be heard inside ordinary materials dropping >down to a whisper when the temperature gets very very low. There is no way to be sure at the moment. We have simply a device which shows changing output. Those output variations are correlated, to varying degrees, with things happening in the environment, that word also including the space around the planet and beyond. I saw correlations to planetary motion, but then that was what I wanted to see %} . If the natural environment is also correlated to these things, we have a "chicken and egg" problem. For example, when I was discussing this with Drs. Suiji Inomata and Brian O'Leary over here, SI mentioned that he found his (rather small and inefficient) N machine test bed would produce less power in Japan's hot, humid summer days than in drier periods. A problem with freezing capacitors is that the dielectrics get hard and they plummet in uF value. The fact that a very large high voltage oil cap makes very little voltage compared to a small chip tantalum leads me to suspect that, what ever is happening, it is in the dielectric and not in the mass of leads, plates, wires and their thermal jitterbugging. One reference I've seen (in Moray King's Tapping the Zero Point Energy) mentions that travelling waves in the actual permittivity of space (epsilon zero) would be able to pass through shielding. This would require that epsilon zero was not a "fundamental constant", but depend on other conditions. Since a cap's uF value is epsilon zero * K, this would enable an amplification of this wave. The K value of air is perhaps implicated. (My feeling is that everything depends on something else! Thus all is changing, all is flux, no "fundamentals".) So it could be that some form of heat was causing a voltage to appear on these caps, but that their uF value could be also changing due to other influences. Bill Ramsay's work (which I duplicated) uses a free running oscillator which is measured for frequency shifts. And indeed it does do so in a way not correlated with temp. The fact that resistors show variations of similar nature to the caps says that heat is likely a factor. And the fact that we have persistant folklore of various devices that are able to induce negative entropy in the surroundings, and so get cooler while producing electricity (Aspden's refrigerator for one) says to me that the chaos of so called random processes like heat contain order in them which contains information, and even energy. Curiouser and curiouser, Alastair Couper From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:22:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15989; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:08:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:08:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DCC0D4.A0 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:15:16 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle References: <19980207173620.AAA25090 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SXe481.0.fv3.wqCtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clinton Rawls wrote: > But something like is what > I was looking for because it allows me to keep the initial pressure and > volume constant when using different temperatures by giving me the option > of having a variable mass. Yes, Clinton, this is what the standard form of the perfect gas law is good for - for a GIVEN STATE IN EQUILIBRIUM, if you know three of the 4 variables (P, V, M, T) you can solve for the other one. > As I showed in my latest post, when using that > formula, the answer turned out to be that the resulting pressure > change is exactly the inverse of the volume change. That's because you held temperature constant and used the expression: PV = MRT = constant. (since R is a universal constant and M is a constant in a "batch process" like yours where the mass is constant.) > This tells me that no work was > performed leaving the expanded gas with the same amount of enthalpy as > before expansion which constitutes a free expansion and not adiabatic. Clinton, the perfect gas law is AN EQUATION OF STATE. It holds at one state or condition of the gas. IT TELLS YOU NOTHING OF THE WORK DONE IN CHANGING FROM ONE STATE TO ANOTHER! > Is > there a formula that can give me adiabatic results that includes mass in > the equation? Thanks John and Frank! > Sure there is, Clinton. Usually, problems in thermodynamics engineering can be either "batch processes", where you work with a fixed mass of substance - or, they can deal with "flow processes" where a flow of fluid (like gas) moves continually from one state to another. A good example of a batch process is the gas in the cylinder of a piston engine. A good flow process example is the gas flowing out through a rocket nozzle. Your process sounds like a "batch process". Here you take a fixed mass of gas and see what happens to it when you change its state from one condition to another VIA SOME KIND OF RESTRICTED PATH. Some restrictions would be: 1. isothermal --------constant temperature 2. adiabatic ---------no heat transfer across system boundary 3. isentropic --------no change in entropy 4. isenthalpic--------no change in enthalpy 5. etc....... For your BATCH process, pick some P1, V1, M, T1 that suits you. Now, KEEP M CONSTANT. This is your mass. You know it. You don't need to worry about it for the rest of your batch problem. You probably used PV = MRT to make your choices. Now, deside on your process - like an adiabatic change from P1, V1, T1 to a new state P2, V2, T2. (the mass won't change!) Use P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^k and T2 = T1 * (V1/V2)^(k-1) to calculate the new values, P2 and T2 ---- you had to provide V2 to define the expansion, so you already know it. You now know P2, V2, M, T2 - so you know the final state of the gas. Now, evaluating the work done during the REVERSIBLE change is a bit more complicated. The work in a reversible, adiabatic process in a perfect gas is either: (W is work) 1. W = c_v(T1 - T2)M c_v = specific heat, constant volume or, 2. W = (P1V1 - P2V2)/(k - 1). where k = specific heat ratio, c_p/c_v If we had used "specific volume" v1 and v2 in cubic length units per unit mass, then we would get work, W, in joules per unit mass and we would need to multiply the work by M to get the total work for the mass, M, that we actually had. For more info, Clinton, get an older book on undergraduate thermodynamics and it should discuss this kind of thing at a level you may be able to use without making a detailed study of the subject. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:23:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15971; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:08:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:08:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DCC2C7.55FC interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:23:35 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] What happened to America? References: <199802071353_MC2-325A-2BA2 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ri8Q.0.Rv3.tqCtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > For the life of me I cannot understand why this tactic is any worse than > shooting out tires, or dropping sharp objects on the road, or parking a pair > bulldozers in the middle of the highway as in the movie "Vanishing Point." Hear, Hear, Jed!! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:23:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15940; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:08:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:08:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DCB807.3F91 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 14:37:43 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980207133428.00b07d98 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"j7Fwa.0.yu3.oqCtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > I'm sure you can convince yourself > of the fact that one could achieve a high enough level of cancellation > of the B field at points outside a solenoid ( particularly if a > torroid is wound ) Roger on the torroid, Keith!! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 13:41:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21493; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:35:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:35:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34DD1661.EC44B792 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 05:20:17 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Spanish scientists claim to extract energy from water Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E11605747B5AFD0DFD7CC68F" Resent-Message-ID: <"vIYGI1.0.lF5.NEDtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E11605747B5AFD0DFD7CC68F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is a today's new. http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/health/020798/health16_26793_body.html Regards, hamdi ucar --------------E11605747B5AFD0DFD7CC68F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="health16_26793_body.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="health16_26793_body.html" Content-Base: "http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/heal th/020798/health16_26793_body.html" Spanish scientists claim to extract energy from water

Spanish scientists claim to extract energy from water


Copyright © 1998 Nando.net
Copyright © 1998 Agence France-Presse

MADRID (February 7, 1998 10:08 a.m. EST http://www.nando.net) - Two scientists at the university of Valencia, eastern Spain, claim to have found a low-cost means of extracting hydrogen from water, creating a possible substitute for petrol, press reports said Saturday.

Spanish daily newspapers El Pais and La Vanguardia reported that the researchers Antonio Cervilla and Elisa Llopis have perfected a catalytic converter capable of separating oxygen and hydrogen molecules in water at a low cost.

The method, which uses a chemical product derived from molybdenum but not electricity, could yield hydrogen suitable for use as an alternative fuel to petrol, claim the researchers.

"Hydrogen extracted from a half-litre of water can fuel a car from Bilbao to Valencia," or 390 miles, El Pais quoted Cervilla as saying.

But several experts consulted about the apparent discovery remain sceptical about whether such a method, if feasible, would be really cost-efficient.

Other methods already exist to separate oxygen from hydrogen in water, but all need electricity and are too costly for wider use, state the experts.

 --------------E11605747B5AFD0DFD7CC68F-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 14:45:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19434; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:25:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:25:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34DCC579.1678 gorge.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:35:05 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 10 results References: <199802071744.JAA29429 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HpdK61.0.al4.WzDtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > But here's the real issue: Why try to make the filament last longer when > there is no sign of the purported excess heat during the hour or so that it > does last? > > In other words, does anybody seriously think that our relatively > short-lived filament is preventing the excess heat effect from occurring? > Well, yes, but probably not directly. That is to say, a short lived filament is obviously not an intentional part of BLP's process. So, whatever is causing the destruction of the filament is almost certainly interfering with the intended function of the experiment. The problem, as I see it, lies in intentional misdirection by BLP. They have, presumably by demonstration of their process, managed to persuade people (and at least one large corporation) to give them *millions* of dollars. This leads to one of these two conclusions: 1. The BLP process can produce (on command) dramatic, unambiguous, results. OR 2. The BLP people have committed a dramatic, unambiguous FRAUD. There doesn't appear to be any room for ambiguity, or misinterpretation of the results of an experiment. Also, BLP's intention seems to be market domination by reason of having developed, or "matured" the technology. They haven't even gotten a patent (at least in America). My conclusion is that the process will be found to be relatively easy to duplicate. If this is true, the only logical conclusion is that all information (about experiments) on the BLP website is INTENDED to mislead experimenters, so that no one will be successful before BLP has developed its infrastructure. The problem is to know what is accurate information, and what is misdirection. For instance, what pressure to use? BLP states that excess pressure extinguishes the process. Maybe they gave a pressure a little too high, which causes the filament to deteriorate. Hope this helps. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 14:57:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26752; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:47:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:47:19 -0800 From: "Clinton Rawls" To: "Francis J. Stenger" , Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:47:10 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980207224639.AAA9020 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"uLlMO2.0.wX6.rHEtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You're right, Frank. I wanted an adiabatic process and I thought I made that clear in my original request so when John sent me the Perfect Gas Law formula, I assumed it was for such. After using it and seeing the results, I replied before I realized it was isothermal, which was immediately thereafter. What I needed is a formula like yours and when I got it, I realized that even that was independent of temperature. This answered my original question of how temperature would affect an adiabatic expansion of an ideal gas (or real gas in the region of properties near that of an ideal gas). Adiabatic or isothermal... temperature plays no role. Thanks Frank and John! ...and Ross too, for his kind input! Best Wishes, Clinton Rawls ---------- | From: Francis J. Stenger | To: vortex-l eskimo.com | Subject: Re: Pressure, Volume, Temperature Puzzle | Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 10:31 AM | | Clinton Rawls wrote: | > | I was able to determine that when the volume | > doubled, the pressure was reduced by half. This is true for all | > temperatures at least for an ideal gas. | | Sure it does, Clinton - FOR AN ISOTHERMAL PROCESS!! | I thought you wanted an ADIABATIC PROCESS?? | | For an adiabatic process the gas will cool from the expansion. | P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^k | and, T2 = T1 * (V1/V2)^(k-1) | | where k = c_p/c_v ----- the ratio of specific heats--- = 1.4 for air. | | Frank Stenger | From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 15:36:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07202; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:17:32 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <4b49855f.34dceb10 aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:15:26 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, RVargo1062@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: BAAT Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_886893326_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"vM_pC1.0.Fm1.8kEtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_886893326_boundary Content-ID: <0_886893326 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Many times in the past I has lost money on impulsive moves and hot tips on the stock market. I really don't understand all of the company reports and how this fits into the big picture. I have now employed the services of independent analysist Robert Vargo. Bob is semi retired and watches the market all day long every day. It is his life. He also studies companies. I have found my broker pushes his products and doesn't look into what I want. I now pay R Vargo $20 to check a stock before I leap. This has, believe me, saved me once or twice much more than $20. If you ask him he will do the same for you. rvargo1062 aol.com. I am pleased with his service. He told me to lighten up on technology in September. This helped. Here is his $20 report on BAAT technologies. .............................................................................. ... --part0_886893326_boundary Content-ID: <0_886893326 inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: RVargo1062 aol.com Return-path: To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Subject: BAAT Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:52:34 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I looked at the company news, and was able to get a chart downloaded.The following is my analysis. Company Background-----Hybrid engine design for autos.Latest news indicates that prwvious testing of concept, technlogy was successful. Witnessed test conducted 1/15/98.No information available on financial condition or history. Price Action--------------------Trading range indicates that last upmove started 1/19/98 with greatest movement happening since the beginning of Feb. 98.Appears that since 1/19/98 the stock has been under accumulation in anticipation of reported events. Tech. Condition---------------Given the recent price movement indicators are positive but since no long term trading history is evident this should only be purchased with the recognition that total loss of capital is a possibility. If purchase is being considered then a short term downmove is a possibility on 2/9/98 with a price of accumulation around 1.25-1.375 a good point of purchase.Next event is the retest of the companies hybrid engine on 2/10/98. If successful then further price gains of a dramatic nature should be evident. --part0_886893326_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 16:17:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13785; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:03:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:03:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980207235922.3008.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.165] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] What happened to America? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 15:59:20 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"dBn1G2.0.JN3.pOFtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 6 17:57:22 1998 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21937; > Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:16 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:16 -0800 (PST) >X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net >Message-Id: >In-Reply-To: <19980207001814.25552.qmail hotmail.com> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:54:12 -1000 >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >From: Rick Monteverde >Subject: [off topic] What happened to America? >Resent-Message-ID: <"DbsOY2.0.dM5.2yxsq" mx2> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15762 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >Peter - > > > I would like to build such a device as a > > procaution against such police-state > > tactics. > >As the getaway vehicle on your next job, use an older model car which >doesn't use a computer. ;) First of all, I'm not a criminal. >I'm sure the victims of accidents during high speed police chases would >disagree with you that putting the ability to remotely disable a vehicle in >the hands of the police isn't a good idea. I agree with this if the police are indeed chasing someone who they KNOW commited a crime against HUMANITY. I'm all for this and other >non-violent or non-lethal means of bringing down suspected criminals. What >would be the legitimate objection to the police having a 'gun' that would >only 'kill' cars? The problem here is your use of SUSPECTED criminals. I still believe in innocence until guilt is proven. Also I believe that many crimes that people are punished for are not crimes at all. For instance, cruising through a stop sign if no cars are around and therefore no danger is present. People are not stupid. They have minds that can judge whether a law is applicable or not in specific cases. The reason for stopping at a stop sign is to prevent accidents. If there are clearly no cars in site, then this law should not apply because there are no cars around to cause an accident. People should have the responsibility to decide this for themselves instead of big brother taking away all our responsibility. It is a crime for the police to punish someone for not causing harm to anyone. People have to take back their responsibility. America was founded on the right of people to challenge unjust rulers. If cops have technology that can possibly be used unjustly, then there is no reason why we the people of America shouldn't arm ouselves with similar technology to prevent unjust actions against us. I'd personally love to fry a cop car that was pulling me over for some harmless traffic violation that would end up costing me wasted time and money. They already have guns for use against people, and that's >a far more grim reality than having an electronic car-stopper. > >Just the other day here a crazed fellow with a couple of kitchen knives was >gunned down as he approached a group of police officers. The police kept >shooting as the suspect fell to his knees after being struck by the first >few rounds - "to make sure the threat to us was stopped". This horrible >incident that has pitted Honolulu citizens and our police against each >other could have turned out very differently if the police had been armed >with and trained in the use of effective non-lethal weapons. As it was, all >they seemed to have at their disposal for their legitimate protection were >lethal weapons - their guns. > >I think the right technology can allow us to have it both ways: stop the >bad guys non-lethally while protecting the rights of citizens generally. >That's wouldn't be an indicator of a "police state", but rather of a >civilized and compassionate society. I agree, however, we have to make sure the bad guys are really bad guys and not innocent people being punished for thinking for themselves. Peter Aldo > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 16:29:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15809; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:17:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:17:10 -0800 (PST) From: alansch zip.com.au (Alan Schneider) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 00:15:37 GMT Message-ID: <34dba611.169553 mail.zip.com.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id QAA15776 Resent-Message-ID: <"slkNX3.0.rs3.3cFtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:15:24 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Alan - > > > Looking at T.T Brown's results, is there > > any sign of a superimposed periodicity on > > the "daily" wave which could correspond to > > lunar tides? > >I made up a tide chart for a few of the days of one of the TTB Honolulu >experiment charts, and saw a good match to the tides for about three days, >then it veered off. This is kind of what TTB wrote, that it looked like >lunar and other celestial correlation, but then it would fail in the long >run leaving him perplexed as to what was really happening. There's these >notions that it isn't just having the gravitational source directly pulling >on the dielectric and surroundings, but that it has something to do with >various angles between the earth and the other bodies, almost like >astrology. There's more on this on Alastair's web site. Well there must be one or more factors not being considered here. How many times have you tried doing the correlation with tide charts? Do they always match up at the beginning of the run and then veer off? If so, that would almost tend to indicate the experiment is somehow "poisoning" the ability of the sensor to detect whatever influence it is detecting!???????? Do results vs tide chart ever *not* match at the start then sort of "drift" into alignment later in the run, then drift out again? Or just happen to drift into alignment at the very end of the run? >This is frustrating to me. I think that there might be something >interesting lurking in this somewhere, but I don't know what steps to take >now to ferret it out. It seems like heat just swamps everything. Okay, well the first thing would be to eliminate (or at least minimise) the thermal influence. Try breadboarding a small, low noise signal preamplifier with a good stiff, well filtered supply and turf that, together with your capacitor, into your freezer. Chart the results. If you've got a spare temp probe you can chart the freezer temperature as well to make sure it is relatively constant. If the variation with ambient temp is still there you may be looking at some other phenomenon. Hope this helps. Cheers, Alan. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 16:30:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15874; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:17:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:17:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980208001249.1575.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.165] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] What happened to America? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 16:12:48 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"upLxK1.0.tt3.DcFtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 10:59:39 1998 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17735; > Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:55:18 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:55:18 -0800 (PST) >Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:49:48 -0500 >From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> >Subject: [OFF TOPIC] What happened to America? >Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> >To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com >Message-ID: <199802071353_MC2-325A-2BA2 compuserve.com> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Disposition: inline >Resent-Message-ID: <"jKvJa2.0.zK4.EuAtq" mx2> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15781 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >To: Vortex > >Peter Aldo writes: > > Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of > America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their > cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in > order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. . . . I would > like to build such a device as a precaution against such police-state > tactics. > >For the life of me I cannot understand why this tactic is any worse than >shooting out tires, or dropping sharp objects on the road, or parking a pair >bulldozers in the middle of the highway as in the movie "Vanishing Point." Why >is a high tech method more of an abuse of power??! High tech methods are no >more or less threatening than old-fashioned methods. Tapping an Internet >transmission is no worse than surreptitiously steaming open a hand written >letter. > >An too-powerful government unrestrained by law is a threat to society, but it >is not the only threat. I know what it like to see close friends and relatives >smashed to a pulp by a drunken driver. > > > Any advice would be appreciated. > >Get a horse. Walk. A highway is a public space, like a railway platform or an >airport. Highways are by far the most dangerous and poorly controlled spaces >in our society. More Americans have been killed in highway carnage than in all >the wars in our history. I think highways should be monitored 24 hours a day >and tightly controlled by the police. The major highways in Atlanta are out of >control. People routinely drive 75 to 85 mph in some of the heaviest traffic >east of L.A. They swerve in and out of lanes without signaling, they curse and >threaten other drivers. I have seen drivers in the next lane guzzling whisky, >or reading a newspaper while drinking coffee and gabbing on a cell phone. The >Atlanta Journal recommended we establish a "Mabeline - Kamikaze Award" for >women caught driving at 85 mph while looking in the rear view mirror to put on >makeup -- a common sight! There has been a police crackdown lately, and I >welcome it! Such insane behavior would not have been allowed in earlier eras. >The "wild west" was mostly a myth. > >In the distant future automobiles will be fully automatic, that is, they will >be driven by computers at precisely mandated speed limits and distances from >other vehicles. Highway deaths will be reduced from tens of thousands to a few >dozen per year. Every death will be a major event. It will be a serious >offense to operate a car manually on a public road. (See Clarke's "Imperial >Earth.") Before we reach that state of grace, we will invent many vital >improvements along those lines, like radar proximity warning systems. In >Europe, trucks carry on-board data recorders to monitor their speed, and the >drivers are fined for exceeding speed limits and maximum daily hours of >operation. I would welcome such innovations in the U.S. I would be very >pleased to see every automobile and especially every heavy truck equipped with >a tamper-proof on-board computer that automatically senses the local speed >limit from roadside transponders. When you exceed the speed limit by 5 mph, it >would log the speed and number of minutes. Data could be read out of the >computers during annual safety inspections, or automatically when the vehicle >passes a checkpoint. People who routinely speed should be fined thousands of >dollars a year. > >- Jed > > So you want complete control, a bunch of mindless robots controlled by a higher power- tracked and continually monitored. Sorry, I'll choose FREEDOM. No reduction in deaths is worth the price of freedom. When you give up freedom, and accept control....guess what.... you are no longer free. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 17:17:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24342; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:12:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:12:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DC96BD.81371C9F mail.idt.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 17:16:08 +0000 From: Jones Beene Reply-To: jonesb9 cwnet.com Organization: IdeaWorks Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Run 10 results References: <199802071744.JAA29429 mx2.eskimo.com> <34DCC579.1678@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ub1Cr2.0.5y5.oPGtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Scott Little wrote: > > > But here's the real issue: Why try to make the filament last longer when > > there is no sign of the purported excess heat during the hour or so that it > > does last? > > In other words, does anybody seriously think that our relatively > > short-lived filament is preventing the excess heat effect from occurring? > Tom Miller wrote: > Well, yes, but probably not directly. That is to say, a short lived filament > is obviously not an intentional part of BLP's process. So, whatever is > causing the destruction of the filament is almost certainly interfering > with the intended function of the experiment. In light of these and other recent posts, there is one other possibility to consider. Admittedly the following observation suggests only a VERY remote likelihood of factuality, but because nothing else seems to explain the lack of success in the BLP replication effort and also because there is an indirect tie-in to "cold fusion" phenomenon, consider this: 1.) BLP reportedly uses a much more robust tungsten filament. Could it be true that, knowingly or unknowingly, they have demonstrated that the inevitable accumulation of tungsten oxide on the filament figures into the picture in a positive way? For this to happen, the story gets even more convoluted. To wit: 2.) There is a very recent report (today) of splitting water using molybdenum compounds as catalyst. Notwithstanding the unlikelihood of this being report being accurate, there is indeed another recent and more respectable report on the net (Stefan Adams, Goettingen University: sorry, can't find the URL) that indicates molybdenum bronze, i.e. molybdenum oxide, is a good proton conductor - but not in the same way as paladium. Molybdenum oxide apparently conduct protons only along two axes. 3.) Molybdenum and tungsten are similar, both being refractory metals in the same periodic table column, and with similar oxidation states. Could tungsten oxide also be a proton conductor? If it were, then an accumulation of surface oxide would serve the same purpose as does paladium in the P/F electrolysis cell. Taken together, all this gives a twinkling of possibility that what BLP is doing is just another replication of cold fusion, but using a different proton conductor - and furthermore that all their emphasis on the role of potassium is little more than a smokescreen. A final happenstance - which could make this whole episode very bizarre is that it might be possible that Mills' hydrino theory, or most likely some offshoot of it, explains both phenomena. Scott, I applaud your efforts and your openess in this BLP replication attempt, however frustrating it must appear to you at the moment. It's a pity that there aren't more (reported) efforts by others along these lines, given the great significance to society as a whole of a positive result. But please take the above specualtion about filaments with a grain of salt. It is an extremely unlikely alternative explanation for the present state of affairs. However, like Joe Leaphorn, I don't like to believe in coincidences :-) Jones Beene From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 17:21:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24639; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:14:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:14:04 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's Gwave experiments Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 01:12:39 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ec05b5.221947950 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Idddj2.0.v06.PRGtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:39:25 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Alastair - > > > If this is a thermal effect, then we have too > > limited a view of temperature as being > > strictly a measure of disorder. > >Along the lines that the temperature outside might be causing electrical >fields to appear for various reasons, then other factors that move charge >around might come into play too, like local winds, precipitation, >dust/vapor/pollution clouds, etc. Perhaps these things could produce the >kinds of divergence we see from a straight tracking of simple outside >temperature. [snip] Hi Rick, You might like to take a look at http://www.dklabs.com/dkl.htm . I have a feeling it may be related to your capacitor measurements. Note especially the fact that the effect is unshieldable. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 17:42:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27512; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:38:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:38:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:37:06 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: SMOT ping1 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Ub4Au.0.nj6.doGtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- -* P I N G *- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- www.microtronics.com.au/~ Greg Watson, are you still here (monitoring) the LIST? [Y] [N] [lurking] Thanks in advance for your /any reply. :) -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 17:51:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28702; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:46:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:46:54 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Run 10 results Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:40:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3432$9072e560$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rRaBj3.0.N07.BwGtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Tom Miller To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Run 10 results >Scott Little wrote: >> >> In other words, does anybody seriously think that our relatively >> short-lived filament is preventing the excess heat effect from occurring? >> > >Well, yes, but probably not directly. That is to say, a short lived >filament >is obviously not an intentional part of BLP's process. So, whatever is >causing the destruction of the filament is almost certainly interfering >with the intended function of the experiment. > >The problem, as I see it, lies in intentional misdirection by BLP. Now we are getting somewhere! To the uninitiated in vacuum technology, the rapid oxidation of tungsten in the presence of O2 or "easy oxygen donors" like water,KNOx, etc., BLP is going to look inept. :-) >They have, presumably by demonstration of their process, managed to >persuade people (and at least one large corporation) to give them >*millions* of dollars. This leads to one of these two conclusions: > > 1. The BLP process can produce (on command) dramatic, > unambiguous, results. Most likely, if Hot Tungsten, Potassium or other Alkali metals, and H2 are used "dry". As I posted earlier a standard Thermionic Converter using Cesium or Potassium with Hydrogen added, might very well be ready to produce power. It could be that simple. > > OR > > 2. The BLP people have committed a dramatic, unambiguous FRAUD. They couldn't be that stupid, could they? :-) > >Also, BLP's intention seems to be market domination by reason of having >developed, or "matured" the technology. They haven't even gotten a >patent > (at least in America). They could be in a tight squeeze in getting good claims over Thermionic Converter Patents. My conclusion is that the process will be found >to >be relatively easy to duplicate. Almost too easy with the initial market being the Aerospace Industry. If this is true, the only logical >conclusion is that all information (about experiments) on the BLP >website is INTENDED to mislead experimenters, so that no one will be >successful before BLP has developed its infrastructure. Exactly. If you can't nail down a tight"Basic" Patent, you would be wise to cover your bets with trivial (application)ones. >The problem is to know what is accurate information, and what is >misdirection. You won't get that from the info on their Web-Site. > >For instance, what pressure to use? Thermionic converters operate best at around 133 Pascals or about 1 Torr and 2,000 K more or less. Regards, Frederick > >Tom Miller > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 18:33:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14563; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:18:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:18:36 -0800 Message-ID: <34DD149E.4F27 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:12:46 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980207133428.00b07d98 cnct.com> <34DCB807.3F91@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6e9xQ.0.SZ3.uNHtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Keith Nagel wrote: >> I'm sure you can convince yourself > > of the fact that one could achieve a high enough level of cancellation > > of the B field at points outside a solenoid ( particularly if a > > torroid is wound ) > > Roger on the torroid, Keith!! You can also achieve a completely cancelled B field, equivalent to a long length solenoid without any leakage inductance, or need for any return current path, by using a long length coaxial capacitor. Charge the capacitor, and then mechanical spin one of the plates, or you could spin both plates in opposite directions. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 18:43:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11168; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:00:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:00:46 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Bburchett1@aol.com, rleinweb@lcc.net, BZERBOB@aol.com, cwells marshill.com, david.wallman@kktv.com, GREGORY_BARKER MMACMAIL.JCCBI.GOV, frascone@flash.net, ltatham@ibm.net From: Ed Wall Subject: [Off-Topic]Re: What happened to America? New world of crime? Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:59:54 +0000 Message-ID: <19980208015949.AAA8439 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"wYmv.0.Ok2.C7Htq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I agree with Jed and others that using a high-tech means to disable a car being used in a crime is better than bullets. On the flip side, a crime victim's car could be stopped now by a gun with a silencer fired into a tire or radiator, so the fear that a person could be more easily victimized is superfluous. Besides, I think criminals usually stick to low-tech. This raises an issue that was recently posted on an FAA bulletin board about a Russian company that is selling a small electronic device for the express purpose of jamming GPS signals. Since FAA is, somewhat schizophrenically, approaching the replacement of various navigational aids and even long-range primary radar with GPS, this should be brought to the attention of those wielding budget axes and those who control them (that 's supposed to be us!). I hesitate to bring this up, but I am sure I am not the first to consider that fact that jamming beacon, a.k.a. secondary, radar could be done fairly easily and with little risk of detection, yet no one has done it yet, that I am aware. For this reason, I wonder if the domestic terrorism threat is seriously overblown to the point where it will cause individuals to commit such acts as a form of defiance. In other words, in their zeal to possess unlimited power, politicians and others often vilify strawmen to justify taking extreme precautions and abrogating rights. Such tricks can feed the dreaded object. The results of jamming secondary radar in busy airspace would be quite terrifying, disruptive, expensive and maybe deadly, as well as causing early medical retirements for the air-traffic controllers and pilots). The time required to locate and disable the jamming devices could be considerable. Finding a mobile intermittant jammer would be extremely difficult. Quickly locating multiple stationary intermittant jammers would also be a nightmare. It could be a small device on a boat that could be scuttled if approached by authorities. Just in case any government people are reading this, I am not suggesting such an act. Quite the contrary, I am stating that elimination of primary radar as suggested by some, would make such a terrorist act extremely effective and perhaps increase its likelihood. While jamming of primary radar is a real possibility, this would require beaming a signal directly at the radar antenna, and for low-powered devices, would only result in jamming along a narrow range of azimuth. Loss of primary radar is normally not much of a problem, since separation of airplanes is maintained with secondary radar. Primary radar, in spite of its name, is really a backup to secondary radar and provides no identity or altitude information. Trying to use primary radar for control would be unbelievably cumbersome and dangerous. Jamming of secondary radar could be done with an omnidirectional antenna transmitting as little as 50 dBm peak pulses from anywhere at a frequency received by the airplane's transponders in order to interrogate them. Such interrogations would typically generate replies that would be eliminated as FRUIT (False Returns Unsynchronized In Time) in the radar's receiver. However, if the interrogations were continuous with a high repitition rate, the ability of the transponders to reply would be severely impaired and the planes would drop off the screen. On-board collision avoidance systems use the transponders, so they would also be impaired. So, in conclusion, I am stating that when a government engages in acts that undermine citizen control of government (psychological or otherwise), some citizens do reciprocate with terrorism, and some with protest, both of which Thomas Jefferson would presumably agree and encourage. Terrorism is not necessary. No amount of state control can eliminate it, particularly with a population so well armed and technologically aware. The best way to 'protect' ourselves from terrorists is to keep the government from alienating citizens. This is done by causing government officials to be held accountable for their actions. At 08:56 PM 2/6/98 EST, you wrote: >Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of >America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their >cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in >order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. > Does anyone know how practical and effective this technology is? >I would like to build such a device as a procaution against such >police-state tactics. > Any advice wiuld be appreciated. > >Peter, >I can see that technology geting into the wrong hands and opening up a whole >new world of crime! Just think, a sicko could go riding at night, find a good >looking girl, wait till he followed her to a part of the road where there were >no people around and then disable her car with the push of a button! That >device could be used for countless crimes. It could be aimed at low flying >aircraft also. I hope it does not get developed. >Butch > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 18:47:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18129; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:34:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:34:20 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34dba611.169553 mail.zip.com.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:34:20 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"HOrhD2.0.4R4.gcHtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Alan - > How many times have you tried doing the > correlation with tide charts? Once. > Do they always match up at the beginning > of the run and then veer off? Yes. > [...] and turf that, together with your > capacitor, into your freezer. I watched the temperature in the fridge for a while with a remote probe without opening the door, and it varies too much to be useful. Didn't try the freezer though, that's an idea. With the frozen masses in there it might be more constant. I was thinking of using just a big cooler with a large thermal mass of cold water and ice, with the caps and probe floating on top in a pan. I could even put the DMM in there and view all through a temporary top board with a plexi window on it as a replacement for the lid. Thanks for the ideas. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 18:48:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18965; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:40:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:40:08 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34ec05b5.221947950 mail.eisa.net.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:40:10 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Alastair's Gwave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"S9Nkb.0.Be4.6iHtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin - > You might like to take a look at > http://www.dklabs.com/dkl.htm . I have a > feeling it may be related to your capacitor > measurements. Note especially the fact > that the effect is unshieldable. Thanks Robin, I did look at that page. Seems interesting, but then it turns out that the main guy has been involved for some time in "radionics". That's dowsing, and the sale of *very* expensive 'electronic dowsing rods' with fancy electronic circuits, flashing lights, bells and whistles - all of which do nothing, according to most people not directly involved with selling these things or rationalizing them after having bought one. So I don't know if that DK Labs stuff is real or not, but the electronic dowsing connection got my BS warning flags snapping right smartly in the breeze. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:05:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07266; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:57:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:57:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 21:51:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GVHWT.0.Rn1.qyHtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Again: What is the charge contribution of the MEASURING devices? I just put my Tenma 72-6255 ... DVM, L R C meter on the scope. It puts out a chop at 0.3 milliseconds of about 2 millivolts. SO: Measure the METER!!! BTW: This is NOT a cheap meter. On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Alan - > > > How many times have you tried doing the > > correlation with tide charts? > > Once. > > > Do they always match up at the beginning > > of the run and then veer off? > > Yes. > > > [...] and turf that, together with your > > capacitor, into your freezer. > > I watched the temperature in the fridge for a while with a remote probe > without opening the door, and it varies too much to be useful. Didn't try > the freezer though, that's an idea. With the frozen masses in there it > might be more constant. I was thinking of using just a big cooler with a > large thermal mass of cold water and ice, with the caps and probe floating > on top in a pan. I could even put the DMM in there and view all through a > temporary top board with a plexi window on it as a replacement for the lid. > > Thanks for the ideas. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:06:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06363; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re; BLP Run 10 , Note The Russian-Topaz Expert Staff Member Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:48:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd343b$fd2f6b20$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3401.50D09320" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"VpkkP2.0.LZ1.ouHtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3401.50D09320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www1.che.ufl.edu/meeting/1996/annual/session/197/a/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3401.50D09320 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" a.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" a.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www1.che.ufl.edu/meeting/1996/annual/session/197/a/index.html Modified=400D5BB53B34BD018A ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3401.50D09320-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:11:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18903; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:39:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:39:43 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: What happened to America? Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:33:43 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980208023902531.AAA342 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"TKERJ1.0.Hd4.jhHtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- > From: Peter Aldo > Hello all, > Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of > America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their > cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in > order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. > Does anyone know how practical and effective this technology is? > I would like to build such a device as a procaution against such > police-state tactics. > Any advice wiuld be appreciated. To which I say, balderdash and nonsense. Whoever wrote this hasn't the foggiest notion of electronics and what is feasible. The automotive engine compartment is one of the most hostile of places to put electronics -- it is hot, vibrating, and has a high voltage spark system operating nearby. Electronics which can function there isn't going to be fried by a microwave beam from any patrol car unless that beam is so intense as to be a lethal hazard to those using it and everything else around. This is a leftover from a '30s Saturday afternoon movie serial. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:11:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23546; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:05:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:05:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980207224826.00b1b5a0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 22:48:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Sejso1.0.ql5.H4Itq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:12 PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote: >Francis J. Stenger wrote: >> >> Keith Nagel wrote: >>> I'm sure you can convince yourself >> > of the fact that one could achieve a high enough level of cancellation >> > of the B field at points outside a solenoid ( particularly if a >> > torroid is wound ) >> >> Roger on the torroid, Keith!! > >You can also achieve a completely cancelled B field, equivalent to >a long length solenoid without any leakage inductance, or need >for any return current path, by using a long length coaxial capacitor. >Charge the capacitor, and then mechanical spin one of the plates, or >you could spin both plates in opposite directions. > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman > What an interesting notion. Have you constructed such a device? If so, what would be some basic design relations...Like how large a voltage and how fast to rotate before reasonable levels of A field are produced. It's far and away easier to generate and control huge currents than voltages, hence the appeal of a current based generator. Figure a reasonable rotation rate to be that of a dremel drill. (15,000-30000rpm) Nice, off the shelf sort of thing. Plus the fittings can match the pipe exactly. A nice length for 1/4" or 1/2" tubing perhaps 1 foot. What do you think? KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:11:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23198; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:04:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:04:39 -0800 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 21:58:51 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's Gwave experiments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XnTXn1.0.Eg5.53Itq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: DKL does not answer letters and their page does not say what their gizmo is or does. Or this was the case when I first looked at them. AND: A good dowser can do the job with just about anything at hand! J On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Robin - > > > You might like to take a look at > > http://www.dklabs.com/dkl.htm . I have a > > feeling it may be related to your capacitor > > measurements. Note especially the fact > > that the effect is unshieldable. > > Thanks Robin, I did look at that page. Seems interesting, but then it turns > out that the main guy has been involved for some time in "radionics". > That's dowsing, and the sale of *very* expensive 'electronic dowsing rods' > with fancy electronic circuits, flashing lights, bells and whistles - all > of which do nothing, according to most people not directly involved with > selling these things or rationalizing them after having bought one. So I > don't know if that DK Labs stuff is real or not, but the electronic > dowsing connection got my BS warning flags snapping right smartly in the > breeze. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:27:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22538; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:00:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:00:17 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re; BLP Science and Thermionic Converter Connection Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:55:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd343c$fc4f9d00$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD3402.6BF773C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"sDiou2.0.3W5._-Htq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD3402.6BF773C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Thermionic Thermionic devices consist of evacuated or plasma-filled cells in which = electrons are boiled out of a hot cathode and collected at the cooler = anode. In 1883 the American inventor Thomas A. Edison applied for a = patent on a direct-conversion device that employed thermionic emission, = although at the time he was not aware of the physical principles of the = device. The Edison tube, which proved very inefficient, was essentially = a carbon-filament light bulb into which an extra electrodes had been = inserted. No systematic effort was made to develop practical thermionic = converters until the mid-1950s, at which time the impetus of space = exploration awakened considerable interest in their potential. = Thermionic converters seem particularly well suited as an = electrical-power source for deep-space probes and various other space = vehicles. Unlike conventional heat-power devices (e.g., Rankine and = Stirling cycle power plants), they have no rotating or reciprocating = components, thereby eliminating the need for frequent maintenance. = Moreover, heat for thermionic devices may come from any convenient = source; it may be solar, chemical, or nuclear in origin. Other = advantages include low system weight and the ability to withstand = acceleration higher than 30 times the force of gravity. In addition, = their high efficiency makes them suitable energy sources for use in = low-power radio transmitters and for other applications in remote and = hostile terrestrial environments (e.g., undersea operations).=20 There are two principal types of thermionic devices--the vacuum = converter and the gas-filled converter. The first variety has a vacuum = gap of about 0.025 mm (0.001 inch) or less between the component = electrodes. After the electron gas has been boiled out of the heated = cathode (at temperatures from 1,000 to 2,500 K), it is passed through = this gap to the comparatively cool anode, where it is condensed. The = electron gas then passes through an external circuit and back to the = cathode side to deliver electric power. The vacuum converter has only = had limited practical applications.=20 The second type of thermionic converter is filled with the vapour of = such metals as cesium, rubidium, or potassium. Those containing cesium = are the most efficient because cesium has a particularly low ionization = potential (3.87 electron volts). As soon as electrons escape from the = cathode, they are accelerated by the potential generated by cesium ions = immediately outside of that electrodes. A few of the electrons help to = produce ions, but most of them flow through the almost neutral plasma to = the anode, with negligible energy loss.=20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD3402.6BF773C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thermionic

 
=

Thermionic


Thermionic devices = consist of=20 evacuated or plasma-filled cells in which electrons are boiled out of a = hot cathode and collected at the cooler anode. In 1883 the American inventor Thomas A. Edison applied for a patent = on a=20 direct-conversion device that employed thermionic emission, although at = the time=20 he was not aware of the physical principles of the device. The Edison = tube,=20 which proved very inefficient, was essentially a carbon-filament light = bulb into=20 which an extra electrodes had been = inserted. No=20 systematic effort was made to develop practical thermionic converters = until the=20 mid-1950s, at which time the impetus of space exploration awakened = considerable=20 interest in their potential. Thermionic converters seem particularly = well suited=20 as an electrical-power source for deep-space probes and various other = space=20 vehicles. Unlike conventional heat-power devices (e.g., Rankine and = Stirling=20 cycle power plants), they have no rotating or reciprocating components, = thereby=20 eliminating the need for frequent maintenance. Moreover, heat for = thermionic=20 devices may come from any convenient source; it may be solar, chemical, = or=20 nuclear in origin. Other advantages include low system weight and the = ability to=20 withstand acceleration higher than 30 times the force of gravity. In = addition,=20 their high efficiency makes them suitable energy sources for use in = low-power=20 radio transmitters and for other applications in remote and hostile = terrestrial=20 environments (e.g., undersea operations).

There are two = principal types=20 of thermionic devices--the vacuum converter and the gas-filled = converter. The=20 first variety has a vacuum gap of about 0.025 mm (0.001 inch) or less = between=20 the component electrodes. = After the=20 electron gas has been boiled out of the heated cathode (at temperatures from 1,000 to 2,500 = K), it is=20 passed through this gap to the comparatively cool anode, where it is = condensed.=20 The electron gas then passes through an external circuit and back to the = cathode side to deliver electric power. The = vacuum=20 converter has only had limited practical applications.

The = second type=20 of thermionic converter is filled with the vapour of such metals as = cesium,=20 rubidium, or potassium. Those containing cesium are the most efficient = because=20 cesium has a particularly low ionization potential (3.87 electron = volts). As=20 soon as electrons escape from the cathode, = they are=20 accelerated by the potential generated by cesium ions immediately = outside of=20 that electrodes. A few of the electrons = help to=20 produce ions, but most of them flow through the almost neutral plasma to = the=20 anode, with negligible energy loss.

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BD3402.6BF773C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:34:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11397; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:23:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:23:44 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:22:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"X5nkH3.0.tn2.xKItq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - > SO: Measure the METER!!! Arrgh. I only have one meter, and a reall sloppy scope that *might* resolve down to .01 volt without amplifying the inpot signal first. The meter might be charging the cap, but the charge gain rates I see are essentially the same whether I leave the thing connected all the time, or only briefly to take a reading. Either way, if I keep the meter at the same constant temp as the caps, this effect if any should null out. Right? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:39:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25003; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:12:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:12:37 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980207235922.3008.qmail hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:12:41 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [off topic] What happened to America? Resent-Message-ID: <"VG0XV2.0.b66.ZAItq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peter - > First of all, I'm not a criminal. Er, a sense of humor might be appropriate here. It's just a discussion list, not a courtroom. > The problem here is your use of > SUSPECTED criminals. I still believe in > innocence until guilt is proven. WHAT PROBLEM?! The use of "suspected" MEANS presumption of innocence! That's what the term means! Why do you think it's used there? Some car peels away from the scene of a robbery, and victim and bystanders are pointing at the car. That's the one we want the cops to chase after and stop as quickly and as safely as they can. You don't schedule a trial first to see if they should chase them. That car is being driven by *suspected* criminals. We won't know if they're really guilty of anything until a trial, if necessary. Maybe they were also just bystanders trying to get away from danger and it's a case of mistaken ID. Then so what? All they have to do when the cops flash their lights is pull over immediately! What's the problem? > For instance, cruising through a stop sign > if no cars are around and therefore no > danger [...] Agggghhhhh...ok. Major mindset schism here. If you have somehow identified American "freedom" as essentially equating to: The freedom to try to escape police pursuit in your car whenever you feel like it or if you think you're not guilty of anything. ...well then, you just jump in your 'ol 'Robert E. Lee' and show that 'ol Boss Hog whatchyur really made of, son. http://www.depraved.com/~DeathM/dukes.html Later. ***Much*** later. And hopefully *never* on the road! Geez. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:44:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25430; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:14:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:14:16 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , Subject: Re: What happened to America? Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:09:54 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd343f$07c24c80$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"l5hCF2.0.FD6.6CItq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Mike Carrell To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 7:46 PM Subject: Re: What happened to America? >---------- >> From: Peter Aldo >> Hello all, >> Recently I've read that the police in our so-called free country of >> America are looking into installing microwave beam emitters in their >> cars for the purpose of frying the computer systems in automobiles in >> order to stop what they think are offenders of justice. >> Does anyone know how practical and effective this technology is? >> I would like to build such a device as a procaution against such >> police-state tactics. >> Any advice wiuld be appreciated. > >To which I say, balderdash and nonsense. Whoever wrote this hasn't the >foggiest notion of electronics and what is feasible. Balder-Balderdash, Mike. :-) The depth penetration in a metal: 1/(pi)*frequency*Mu*Conductivity for 1/2 attenuation says that the millions already spent on equipping Police Helicopters around the country, says you are right about microwaves but wrong about strong low frequency stuff? Great for wiping out mine-fields also. Regards, Frederick The automotive engine >compartment is one of the most hostile of places to put electronics -- it >is hot, vibrating, and has a high voltage spark system operating nearby. >Electronics which can function there isn't going to be fried by a microwave >beam from any patrol car unless that beam is so intense as to be a lethal >hazard to those using it and everything else around. This is a leftover >from a '30s Saturday afternoon movie serial. > >Mike Carrell > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 19:45:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA30644; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:43:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:43:14 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Water Fuel Discovery Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:43:02 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ef29ae.231159441 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <34DC9F49.2557 keelynet.com> In-Reply-To: <34DC9F49.2557 keelynet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3kmSK3.0.jU7.HdItq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:52:09 -0800, Jerry W. Decker wrote: >Hi Folks! > >A new method of converting water to gas, if you are interested, check >out; http://keelynet.com/energy/valhyd.htm >-- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 > Note that the third ionisation potential of molybdenum is 27.16 volts, making it a possible catalyst in a Mills hydrino type reaction. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 20:19:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02671; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:03:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:03:49 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: New Water Fuel Discovery Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:59:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3445$f35a2180$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7UIk32.0.Yf.awItq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, February 07, 1998 8:47 PM Subject: Re: New Water Fuel Discovery >On Sat, 07 Feb 1998 09:52:09 -0800, Jerry W. Decker wrote: > >>Hi Folks! >> >>A new method of converting water to gas, if you are interested, check >>out; http://keelynet.com/energy/valhyd.htm >>-- >> Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com >> http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" >> Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 >> KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 >> >Note that the third ionisation potential of molybdenum is 27.16 volts, >making it a possible catalyst in a Mills hydrino type reaction. Now that IS BALDERDASH, Robin! Where on God's Green Earth are you going to get 315,000+ degree temperatures in a BLP Cell? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Regards, > >Robin van Spaandonk >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on >temperature. >"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." >PS - no SPAM thanks! >-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 20:52:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20786; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:47:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:47:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:40:11 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's g-wave experiments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6JAkc3.0.h45.BZJtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nope. It the temp co of the meter AND the caps are the same... and the same goes for metal-metal junctions... and a host of other things like aliasing any ... and I do mean ANY other signals ... I would astounded. Tell you what ... find some good headphones, or better yet one of the old crytal 'in-the-ear' earphones... and put on the 'phones and listen up' to the meter.... change ranges... Find old microammeter from surplus.... Try the scope ... And run up battery op amp amplifier ... or tie meter to input of audio amp... J On Sat, 7 Feb 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > John - > > > SO: Measure the METER!!! > > Arrgh. I only have one meter, and a reall sloppy scope that *might* resolve > down to .01 volt without amplifying the inpot signal first. > > The meter might be charging the cap, but the charge gain rates I see are > essentially the same whether I leave the thing connected all the time, or > only briefly to take a reading. Either way, if I keep the meter at the same > constant temp as the caps, this effect if any should null out. Right? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 21:09:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13160; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:59:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 20:59:56 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Alastair's Gwave experiments Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 04:59:43 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f43b8c.235734283 mail.eisa.net.au> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QAP-y2.0.DD3.AlJtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:40:10 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >Thanks Robin, I did look at that page. Seems interesting, but then it turns >out that the main guy has been involved for some time in "radionics". >That's dowsing, and the sale of *very* expensive 'electronic dowsing rods' >with fancy electronic circuits, flashing lights, bells and whistles - all >of which do nothing, according to most people not directly involved with >selling these things or rationalizing them after having bought one. So I >don't know if that DK Labs stuff is real or not, but the electronic >dowsing connection got my BS warning flags snapping right smartly in the >breeze. [snip] Do you think the Pohl reference is worth checking? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 7 23:47:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA31922; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:42:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 23:42:24 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 01:42:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP filament issues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"k2nqN1.0.ho7.U7Mtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for all the feedback...I guess we're going to have to fix the filament problem. To recap, our tungsten filament works great in the best vacuum we can make....but erodes rapidly when we fill the stainless steel chamber with 2 torr of very pure hydrogen gas, even when there is no KNO3/KNO2 in the chamber. We also got a similar erosion rate in one test using Ar instead of H...but the Ar was straight out of the bottle...not purified. Since our filament works OK in vacuum, it stands to reason that our vacuum quality is OK. When the chamber is at 250C and the pumps are running we see a pressure of 10^-7 near the inlet of the turbopump. I'm guessing it's 10^-6 or 10^-5 in the chamber. As far as I can tell, BLP does not have such a good vacuum. According to Part 3 of the New Fractional Quantum Levels of Hydrogen info, they use a Kinney KTC 21 which is an oil-filled roughing pump like our Welch 1397. It probably gets their chamber only down to 10^-3 (if they're taking good care of the pump). BLP's filament is not really more "robust" than ours. It's only a longer piece of the same diameter wire...0.1mm diameter. Ed S. writes: >Lower your target expectations (>50% OU) and use a more rugged filament (Pt >or Ir). I would be ecstatic to get 5% OU at this stage. 5% o-u would amount to 1.5 watts excess out of our nominal 30 watt input. We have the stability to see such a signal in this calorimeter but just barely. I am definitely considering a Pt filament in the near future and have already ordered some 0.005" diameter Pt wire. Meanwhile, back to the tungsten: I am open to suggestions for solving our present filament problem. Should I try the glow discharge cleaning method for the walls of the chamber? Do we need to change to a glass chamber to get rid of the metal-oxide coated walls? a bigger chamber? Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 00:44:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05190; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:40:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:40:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980208033554.006d9468 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:35:54 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC - rust In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980126094915.00a9d76c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-k9kC.0.wG1.WzMtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:49 AM 1/26/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >In my perusal of Uhlig's "Corrosion and Corrosion Control" I happened upon >something that may be of interest to some...an explanation of the >accelerating action that water has upon the rusting of iron. A good start getting that book. >We are all familiar with the voltaic cell in which dissimilar electrodes >are place in a common electrolyte. Less familiar is the "concentration >cell" in which identical electrodes are placed in an electrolyte with a >concentration gradient between the electrodes. > >A drop of water on an iron surface forms just such a cell. The two >electrodes are the iron around the edge of the drop and the iron in the >center of the drop...and they are shorted electrically together. The >concentration gradient occurs due to differential aeration of the water. >Near the edge of the drop, where the water is thin, atmospheric oxygen >raises the oxygen content of the water w.r.t to the center of the drop. >This creates an electrolytic cell in which the central iron is the anode >and the surrounding iron is the cathode. >Once started in this manner, the electrolytic action oxidizes the central >iron, which shields that iron from the dissolved oxygen, further increasing >the oxygen concentration gradient in the cell. The central iron continues >to be oxidized by the anodic conditions and erodes away resulting in the >familiar rust pit. Now what is familiar about a rust pit? And how is it off topic anyway since corrosion might contribute to some of the effects as noted in the cavitation devices? Nature is again more complicated when more closely examined -- The red is Fe2O3, (like much of Mars' surface), but beneath it is Fe3O4 (black, ferrimagnetic), and FeO white. Lavoisier measured the specific heat of venous AND arterial blood and calculating the difference, and noting that the red color of "rust" which is similar to the oxides (ie. red) of mercury, lead, and iron, he concluded blood binds oxygen. Now THAT is calorimetry. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 00:46:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05255; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:40:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:40:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980208033635.006d8874 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:36:35 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: pressure In-Reply-To: <34C95B87.17B math.ucla.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123111916.00b72e90 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_8tqx3.0.1I1.8-Mtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:09 PM 1/23/98 -0800, Barry Merriman wrote: >Robert I. Eachus wrote: >> Also, has anyone tried putting heavy water (or deuterium, but water is >> probably an easier choice) in a diamond anvil? Should get significant >> neutrons to be detectable. >> >Steve Jones did this several years ago, found no neutrons. Given the lessons learned in cold fusion, future investigators should not rule this out based upon material/nuclear factors and the signal chosen again to follow the putative reactions. 1. Also, neutrons may have been the WRONG signal to even look for. Where is the proof that neutrons were appropriate in the condensed state? 2. Therefore, exactly what were the pressure, time, volume achieved? Issues of loading, containment, etc. were most likely not considered seriously in the attempt to "disprove" what may be shown to be a real phenomenon. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 00:50:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09797; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:45:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 00:45:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980208033940.006ddd8c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 03:39:40 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Correction to Shanahan: Carrell: Blue: Arata spillover In-Reply-To: <34D9D680.4B88 earthlink.net> References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9 earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6 earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1 earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8 earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0 earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506 earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276 earthlink.net> <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5 earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4 earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8 earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32 earthlink.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6 earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977 earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4 earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014 earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A earthlink.net> <34D3163E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260 earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43 earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46 earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02 earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4 earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vatDY2.0._O2.f2Ntq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:10 AM 2/5/98 -0600, Kirk Shanahan wrote in response to the following: >> For the dimensions I chose, this could seem so. However, D+ can diffuse >> through the walls, and there is measurement evidence that it does so. Once >> through the walls, it can form D2 molecules if enough energy is present, or >> it can migrate over the surface of the Pd black (spillover). The forces >> encouraging this migration are strong, and the distance into the individual >> particles short, so it could well be that D+ is only passing through the >> capsule walls and accumulates in the Pd black as a "sink", reaching the >> critical loading for initiation of the CF reaction. The concentration of D+ >> in the capsule walls may thus be low. >> > Kirk Shanahan: >No, no, no. If the Pd black gets loaded, it will also start >unloading! The unloading will be the reverse reactions of the gas >phase path, the surface diffusion path, and the unmentioned bulk >diffusion path. Because those paths are available, the D >concentration in the wall will be the same as that in the Pd black, >because it will also have all absorbtion/desorbtion pathways available >to it. No, not "concentration .. will be the same". The activities will be the same. There may be traps, and other compartments which act to increase the total content (ie. concentation). Gendanken expt for proof: Consider two troughs of identical volume, one of hemoglobin solution (which binds oxygen) and the other of the solution without hemoglobin, and both at equilibrium with the atmosphere. They are also separated by a barrier permeable to molecular oxygen. At equilibrium: In the hemoglobin solution there is BOTH solvated and physically bound oxygen. At equilibrium, are the concentrations (ie. content) in the two containers equal? or are the activities equal? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 02:04:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09464; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:01:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:01:12 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP filament issues Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:56:45 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3477$dd9c4300$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"gyg5n.0.oJ2.c9Otq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 12:45 AM Subject: BLP filament issues > >To recap, our tungsten filament works great in the best vacuum we can >make....but erodes rapidly when we fill the stainless steel chamber with 2 >torr of very pure hydrogen gas, even when there is no KNO3/KNO2 in the >chamber. First things first. Let in hydrogen gas any time after the chamber is at whatever temperature and pressure is attained with the cartridge heater at 30 watts for 20 minutes or so. Exhaust this fill after about 10 minutes. Repeat these steps a few times, pull down to a good vacuum, and light the filament while pumping for another 20 minutes or so, then let in the hydrogen. This should have gotten rid of the oxygen-water in the chamber. We also got a similar erosion rate in one test using Ar instead >of H...but the Ar was straight out of the bottle...not purified. Wall-parts collisions of the Ar loosening-liberating adsorbed oxygen-H2O could explain this. > >Since our filament works OK in vacuum, it stands to reason that our vacuum >quality is OK. When the chamber is at 250C and the pumps are running we >see a pressure of 10^-7 near the inlet of the turbopump. I'm guessing it's >10^-6 or 10^-5 in the chamber. >As far as I can tell, BLP does not have >such a good vacuum. According to Part 3 of the New Fractional Quantum >Levels of Hydrogen info, they use a Kinney KTC 21 which is an oil-filled >roughing pump like our Welch 1397. It probably gets their chamber only >down to 10^-3 (if they're taking good care of the pump). > >BLP's filament is not really more "robust" than ours. It's only a longer >piece of the same diameter wire...0.1mm diameter. > >Ed S. writes: > >>Lower your target expectations (>50% OU) and use a more rugged filament (Pt >>or Ir). I would be ecstatic to get 5% OU at this stage. > >5% o-u would amount to 1.5 watts excess out of our nominal 30 watt input. >We have the stability to see such a signal in this calorimeter but just >barely. I am definitely considering a Pt filament in the near future and >have already ordered some 0.005" diameter Pt wire. About the only way to to get around the tungsten oxidation problem. > >Meanwhile, back to the tungsten: I am open to suggestions for solving our >present filament problem. >Should I try the glow discharge cleaning method >for the walls of the chamber? If the H2 molecule hydrogen purge steps don't do it, then the discharge (which will create H+ and H atoms might be the only way to scour the chamber and the parts inside of it. Do we need to change to a glass chamber to >get rid of the metal-oxide coated walls? a bigger chamber? NO! Glass is torture to degas (water vapor loves it)and seal. The chamber size,is fine. Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 02:19:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14302; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:16:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 02:16:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:14:42 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980208181724.219fcd7e po.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: mpowers8 po.pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mpowers Consultants Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Resent-Message-ID: <"SgjS82.0.KV3.YNOtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel posted the following (edited for brevity) at 22:48 1998.02.07 -0500: >At 06:12 PM 2/7/98 -0800, you wrote: > >>You can also achieve a completely cancelled B field, equivalent to >>a long length solenoid without any leakage inductance, or need >>for any return current path, by using a long length coaxial capacitor. >>Charge the capacitor, and then mechanical spin one of the plates, or >>you could spin both plates in opposite directions. >> >>Regards, >>Robert Stirniman >> > >What an interesting notion. Have you constructed such a device? >If so, what would be some basic design relations...Like how >large a voltage and how fast to rotate before reasonable levels >of A field are produced. It's far and away easier to generate >and control huge currents than voltages, hence the appeal of a >current based generator. > >Figure a reasonable rotation rate to be that of a dremel drill. >(15,000-30000rpm) Nice, off the shelf sort of thing. Plus the >fittings can match the pipe exactly. A nice length for 1/4" or >1/2" tubing perhaps 1 foot. What do you think? > >KPN I tried it using a Dremel at ~ 400 rps (~24000 rpm) Nothing to show for it. Perhaps needed higher voltage, bigger metal mass, different reality, idunno... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 03:43:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21016; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 03:38:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 03:38:46 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: What happened to America? Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:32:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3485$442c71a0$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"CyAJp.0.I85.4bPtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike C wrote: >Balderdash and Nonsense. The Great Gildersleeve ca. 1940, Mike? :-) With your near 70 years and my 65 years of experience we both should know that the average "Tin Lizzy" with miles of wiring running from the tail-lights to the headlights and through the cowl and console to the computer,isn't "Hardened" against high field Electromagnetic Pulse energy EMP. I guess a Sherman Tank or a Brinks or Wells Fargo Armored vehicle might fare better.That gives me an idea when they pick up and deliver at the Wal-Mart Superstore 5 blocks down the road. :-) A lot of folks like to drive up to the Sandia Crest mountain peak (10,600 ft elevation about a mile above Albuquerque)to take in the view. There is an "antenna farm" there that serves over 300 broadcast users. Many drivers are perplexed that their auto burglar alarms can't be silenced when they get within a mile or less from the "antenna farm", others have to call for a tow because their computers shut down. :-) Such is life in the age of "Electronic Warfare". :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 04:05:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23984; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:02:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:02:16 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: What happened to America? Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 04:57:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3488$b58c2860$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"6mWz2.0.bs5.7xPtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: BTW, Mike I once "Nuked" a good metal-cased digital wristwatch in a microwave oven for about 3 seconds. It ran for a couple of years before it finally gave out. It was never over 12 hours or 6 days off either. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 06:15:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02825; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 06:10:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 06:10:36 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34DD6641.108FF48 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 08:01:05 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP filament issues References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xwPMY3.0.3i.QpRtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: Thanks for all the feedback... I guess we're going to have to fix the filament problem. ... Meanwhile, back to the tungsten: I am open to suggestions for solving our present filament problem. Should I try the glow discharge cleaning method for the walls of the chamber? Do we need to change to a glass chamber to get rid of the metal-oxide coated walls? a bigger chamber? Hi Scott, Despite Jones Beene's fascinating speculations about the catalytic possibilities of tungsten (the molybdenum analogy), my best guess is that tungsten is a BLP red herring. In the batch reaction mode, things change from second to second from start to burnout. If any sense is to be made of the data, it will be necessary to achieve some rough steady state. So again I suggest an H2 bleed. Any "cleaning" which goes on, at least for the first experiment, will be part of the run itself. Take my recommendation with a grain of salt because, as you know, I'm prejudiced toward the use of a filament from the stainless family -- nickel would be good, whether hydrided or not. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 07:45:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14107; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 07:36:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 07:36:04 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: What happened to America?(zapping cars) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:34:37 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980208153534658.AAA167 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"1gyqc.0.ES3.Y3Ttq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- > From: Frederick J. Sparber > To: mikec snip.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: What happened to America? > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Carrell > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > >---------- > >To which I say, balderdash and nonsense. Whoever wrote this hasn't the > >foggiest notion of electronics and what is feasible. >From fred Sparber: > Balder-Balderdash, Mike. :-) > > The depth penetration in a metal: > > 1/(pi)*frequency*Mu*Conductivity for 1/2 attenuation says that the millions > already spent on equipping Police Helicopters around > the country, says you are right about microwaves but wrong about strong low > frequency > stuff? Great for wiping out mine-fields also. Sorry, no again. Engine computers operate in an electrically hostile environment and there has to be shielding and filtering everywhere from DC on up. The virtue of microwaves is that the waves are micro, meaning short, and can be focused by relatively small structures. A mirror or lens has to be at least a wavelength in diameter to anything much, and this includes getting sound to the front of the loudspeaker instead of spilling all over the room. Low frequency RF energy spills all over unless the structures are huge, meaning football field size. Mines react to pressure, contact, and in the case of submarine mines, magnetic (not electromagnetic) fields. They can be detected but not exploded by radar technologies at short range. As for the notion of jamming GPS signals to aircraft, not so easy. The signals are in the centimeter band and antennas mounted on top of an aircraft are shielded from a jamming transmitter on the ground. I'm sure the military thought of this and there should be some jam-resistance built into the system. The use of GPS and computer based terrain maps to warn of collisions is not a bad idea at all. Someone trying to jam is putting out a very easily tracked beacon which EM surveillance aircraft are well equipped to spot. All this stuff looks great in the hi tech adventure films, but it ain't easy in real life. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 07:49:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10197; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 07:41:35 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 07:41:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DDD1EF.2E14 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:40:31 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: What happened to America? References: <01bd3488$b58c2860$d9a6410c default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BJ1-E.0.FV2.j8Ttq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > > I once "Nuked" a good metal-cased digital wristwatch > in a microwave oven for about 3 seconds. It ran for a couple of years before > it finally gave out. > > It was never over 12 hours or 6 days off either. :-) > Well, I got back at the microwaves, Fred - I started up my 100 kv beast power supply in my basement and blew out the control board of our microwave upstairs in the kitchen. Replaced that solid-state stuff with a souped-up electro-mechanical timer from an old GE electric range. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 07:53:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16535; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 07:51:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 07:51:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34DDD47A.12A6 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 10:51:22 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP filament issues References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BQeQ4.0.B24.6ITtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Should I try the glow discharge cleaning method > for the walls of the chamber? Do we need to change to a glass chamber to > get rid of the metal-oxide coated walls? a bigger chamber? > Start with Fred's protocol, then try the next easier stuff, then glow discharge - if you try glow discharge in a glass chamber at least you'll have a pretty "plasma globe" to photograph for EarthTech PR, Scott. Going along with the disinformation theory -- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 09:12:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17428; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 08:58:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 08:58:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980208115307.006b705c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:53:07 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: What happened to America?(zapping cars) Cc: , In-Reply-To: <19980208153534658.AAA167 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ad0Fx2.0.CG4.3HUtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike and Fred at it over skin-depth in metals. At 11:34 AM 2/8/98 -0500, Mike wrote: >> From: Frederick J. Sparber >quoted by Peter Aldo> >> >To which I say, balderdash and nonsense. Whoever wrote this hasn't the >> >foggiest notion of electronics and what is feasible. > >>From fred Sparber: >> Balder-Balderdash, Mike. :-) >> >> The depth penetration in a metal: >> >> 1/(pi)*frequency*Mu*Conductivity for 1/2 attenuation says that the >millions already spent on equipping Police Helicopters around >> the country, says you are right about microwaves but wrong about strong >low frequency stuff? Great for wiping out mine-fields also. Accuracy might help with an analysis of this (and other) equation(s). ;-)X The skin depth in a highly conducting (electrical) medium is - the depth at which the electrical current density at depth is about ~36.9% (i.e. 1/e) of the electrical current at the surface - square root( 1/[pi*frequency*Mu*conductivity] ) ^^^^^^^^^^^ The origin stems from the dielectric relaxation time, the wavenumber, k, and its approximation in complex space. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 09:57:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23777; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:48:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:48:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980208114726.008ae560 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:47:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP filament strategy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"0mCPk2.0.Np5.d_Utq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, we'll try Fred's cleaning procedure Monday...with no catalyst present in the chamber. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 10:16:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26805; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <3636da2.34ddf4bd aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:08:58 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: america Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"9Ogvl1.0.lY6.gKVtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >To which I say, balderdash and nonsense. Whoever wrote this hasn't the > >foggiest notion of electronics and what is feasible. >From fred Sparber: ..................................... Not so I saw it on a TV special. I little rocket powered tram shoots out in front of the police car. Once under the energine is beams a pulse of microwaves up. The burst blew the ignition system electronics in the test shown on TV. ................................................. When I was in grade school the teachers told us something about Russia. They said in Russia party spies are everywhere. You have to watch what you say and to whom. These spies probe into your private life. They will tape record your conversations and get you thrown in jail. In America we are free, these goverment sponsored probes into your privite life do not happen. Now I read about our president and the tape recording his supposid young lady freind. I say put the special prosecutor Star in jail. I wonder, is he reading my E- mail...yet, I'll bet he would like to. Did I move to old Russia or did the regime come here? Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 10:23:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27552; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:16:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:16:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , "Mitchell Swartz" Cc: Subject: Re: What happened to America?(zapping cars) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:10:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd34bc$e2496a00$d9a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7xetV.0.Mk6.qPVtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Mitchell Swartz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: mikec snip.net ; frederick.sparber@worldnet.att.net Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 9:57 AM Subject: Re: What happened to America?(zapping cars) > > Mike and Fred at it over skin-depth in metals. > >At 11:34 AM 2/8/98 -0500, Mike wrote: > >>> From: Frederick J. Sparber >>>quoted by Peter Aldo> >>> >To which I say, balderdash and nonsense. Whoever wrote this hasn't the >>> >foggiest notion of electronics and what is feasible. >> >>>From fred Sparber: >>> Balder-Balderdash, Mike. :-) >>> >>> The depth penetration in a metal: >>> >>> 1/(pi)*frequency*Mu*Conductivity for 1/2 attenuation says that the >>millions already spent on equipping Police Helicopters around >>> the country, says you are right about microwaves but wrong about strong >>low frequency stuff? Great for wiping out mine-fields also. > > > Accuracy might help with an analysis of this (and other) equation(s). ;-)X > > The skin depth in a highly conducting (electrical) medium is > - the depth at which the electrical current density at depth >is about ~36.9% (i.e. 1/e) of the electrical current at the surface - > > square root( 1/[pi*frequency*Mu*conductivity] ) Yep, forgot to put the square root thingie on. > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > > The origin stems from the dielectric relaxation time, the wavenumber, k, >and its approximation in complex space. What is the dielectric constant of sheet-metal, when according to Stratton*, Velocity in the metal: V = c/sqrt(0.5*k*(sqrt(1+(1.04305E18/(k*f))**2)+1))? where k = the relative dielectric constant of copper. * Stratton,Electromagnetic Theory,1941, page 276 Regards, Frederick > > Mitchell Swartz > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 10:37:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10825; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:29:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:29:32 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:12:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"i2L23.0.2f2.AcVtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:14 PM 2/8/98 +0800, you wrote: >I tried it using a Dremel at ~ 400 rps (~24000 rpm) >Nothing to show for it. > >Perhaps needed higher voltage, bigger metal mass, >different reality, idunno... > Well, it begs the question "what were you looking for?". It's no trick to generate large fields of this nature. Detecting said fields is another matter altogether. I am more interested in the theory underlying the device than an improved A field generator. I'm having a hard time convincing myself that this type of circuit would indeed produce an A field. Would there be a back torque on the motor as the cylinders came up to speed? I assume there would be none once a constant rotational rate is reached. Likely I'm just being lazy here, but perhaps Robert can help me out. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 10:58:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00808; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:49:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:49:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980208143054.00b207b8 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:30:57 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: america Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vkkqI.0.WC.quVtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:08 PM 2/8/98 EST, you wrote: >Not so I saw it on a TV special. I little rocket powered tram shoots out in >front of the police car. Once under the energine is beams a pulse of >microwaves up. The burst blew the ignition system electronics in the test >shown on TV. My god, what a really really stupid idea. This makes SDI look reasonable. I mean, can you see some high speed chase where the cop is trying to launch a rocket powered tram right under the speeding, lane changing car ahead? Not to mention the fact that 50 cents worth of chicken wire under the car would effectively render the system useless. You know, as someone losing 1/3 of my income to taxes, I really question the defacto welfare state which exists for government contract work. I could probably pay for half of the unwed mother in NYC for the cost of this piece of foolishness. We have met the enemy, and he is us. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 11:31:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20741; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:19:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:19:04 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: america Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:14:30 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd34c5$c82c73c0$7f83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"g8XoI1.0.l35.bKWtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 12:02 PM Subject: Re: america >At 01:08 PM 2/8/98 EST, you wrote: >>Not so I saw it on a TV special. I little rocket powered tram shoots out in >>front of the police car. Once under the energine is beams a pulse of >>microwaves up. The burst blew the ignition system electronics in the test >>shown on TV. > >My god, what a really really stupid idea. This makes SDI look >reasonable. I mean, can you see some high speed chase where >the cop is trying to launch a rocket powered tram right under >the speeding, lane changing car ahead? Not to mention the >fact that 50 cents worth of chicken wire under the car >would effectively render the system useless. ROFL! I don't know where Johnstown Pa. gets their Tv signal from, But is Frank Z is tuned to the Dizzy Channel? :-) They are putting EMP automotive-disabling equipment on multimillion dollar police helicopters in the major cities,but I don't think that they are using the "trolley-dolly" that Frank Z saw. :-) I think a cop-on-a-creeper with a monkey wrench would be much more cost-effective. :-) Now I know where the "Keystone Cops" got their start. I knew it was somewhere in Pennsylvania. Please, no more, I think I'm getting a Hernia. Regards, Frederick > >You know, as someone losing 1/3 of my income to taxes, >I really question the defacto welfare state which exists >for government contract work. I could probably pay for >half of the unwed mother in NYC for the cost of this >piece of foolishness. > >We have met the enemy, and he is us. > >KPN > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 12:45:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00556; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:34:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:34:34 -0800 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:32:19 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Future transportation system Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802081533_MC2-327A-360 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"6w5Br.0.c8.PRXtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:prospector85 hotmail.com Peter Aldo writes: So you want complete control, a bunch of mindless robots controlled by a higher power- tracked and continually monitored. Exactly! Just like airplanes, trains and ships. A hundred years ago, all high speed ground transportation was by railroad and streetcar under centralized control. It was efficient, reliable, safe and economical. The problem was it lacked flexibility and convenience. I want to combine the best features of old fashioned transport with the best of today's. People think that we have reached the end of history and we are stuck with our present transportation nightmare, but I see enormous room for progress. Eventually, I hope we have individual unscheduled mass air transport. (Unscheduled, but not uncontrolled.) Goods will go from factory to shopping mall by unmanned, robot air transport. Individuals and families will have their own small aircraft. Unlimited clean energy, VTOL craft (vertical take-off and landing), improved GPS navigation and automatic ground control will make it possible. The only problem will be noise. Sorry, I'll choose FREEDOM. No reduction in deaths is worth the price of freedom. I don't get it. We are talking about optimizing the transportation system. What does that have to do with political freedom? The goal is to get people to their destination as swiftly and conveniently as possible, at a low cost, with the least harm to passengers and the environment. We want FREEDOM from traffic jams and wasted time. We want 12 year old kids, disabled people, blind or old people to hop into a vehicle by themselves, tell the computer where to go, and visit their friends or go to the movies or work -- by themselves, without imposing on family or friends. That's maximum freedom and maximum independence for everyone! If we could demonstrate such a transportation system in a major city every American would clamor for it. Nobody would talk about "the price of freedom." Another advantage will be that you can get as drunk as you like at a bar or your friend's house, sleep the whole way home, and the computer will wake you at your doorstep. (The house maid/butler robot will meet the car and help you through the door, too.) When you give up freedom, and accept control....guess what.... you are no longer free. >From 1820 to 1920 everyone in the U.S. rode centrally controlled railroads for long distance travel and for most commuting, with no threat to people's rights. I am sure my grandfather never considered the Long Island Railroad a threat to his freedom! In the late 21st century people will no more want to operate an automobile than you or I would want to pump our own water, or weave our clothes by hand, or turn a crank to raise the escalator in a shopping mall. Manually operated high speed transport just isn't good enough. The error rate per passenger mile is orders of magnitude too high. People should never do a job that machines can do better. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 13:51:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22502; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:39:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:39:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:38:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Future transportation system Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199802081533_MC2-327A-360 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <29C1F51626 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"-Noas2.0.NV5.TOYtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In the late 21st century people will no more want to > operate an automobile than you or I would want to pump our own water, or weave > our clothes by hand, or turn a crank to raise the escalator in a shopping > mall. Manually operated high speed transport just isn't good enough. The error > rate per passenger mile is orders of magnitude too high. People should never > do a job that machines can do better. > > - Jed Are you kidding, Jed? Automatic transmission is too much automated control for a lot of people -- myself included! Unless you enact laws that make driving for yourself illegal ("Imperial Earth" once again! only this time not so attractive), there will be millions of car enthusiasts who would never use such a computer controlled system. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 14:42:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06963; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:26:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:26:38 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:26:45 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Depleted Uranium Resent-Message-ID: <"Kev742.0.ai1.S4Ztq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Is depleted uranium classed as "unobtanium"? Is this stuff as dangerous as radium? Can it be obtained legally by private citizens? My purpose wouldn't be to cut, sand, or mill it - just play with it's electrical properties in bulk form. I hear Hutchison might have or at one time have had a piece for similar purposes. This stuff was strewn all over the gulf war battlefields, and as far as I know wasn't supposed to be dangerous unless it had hit already hit something and would have therefore left the distinctly unhealthy tiny fragments, powders, vapor, etc. in the immediate area. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:10:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21747; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:00:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:00:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: E=SOL (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hYHsR2.0.jJ5._Ratq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message from non-subscriber, re: evidence for CF or o/u physics. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:57:26 -0800 (PST) From: John Allan To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Eugene Mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com> Subject: E=SOL Dear Sirs, I run a small independent campaign in the UK called Energy Solutions promoting ethical and environmental solutions, particularly those within the New Energy Technology field as defined by the INE. I have recently been approached by Commander KEA Shattock, C.Eng, ( retired ) of the Royal Navy and been presented with an opportunity to raise such matters with John Battle MP Minister for Science, Energy and Industry. In a letter letter the MP has stated a view that " no verifiable evidence has been presented practically or through patents to support [ innovators ] claims to have discovered, in effect, a phenomenon unknown to science, whereby more energy was available from the [ fuel source ] than had been used in making it ". He goes on to say, " While it may well be unwise to say that anything is absolutely impossible in science... [ a ] straightforward measurement of energy input [ and output ] would suffice to prove the point and show whether the known laws of physics and chemistry needed to be amended ". He quotes an independent Department of Energy report dated 1991 that I have not seen and it should be noted that the Minister's father was a leading light in the UK Nuclear Programme. I thought someone in your community may be able to provide supportative evidence to suggest the contrary and would appreciate any support especially in the form of reliable scientific references. Your sincerely, John Allan Energy Solutions, London From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:18:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23674; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:10:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:10:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34DE3C0A.610B earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 17:13:14 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Future transportation system References: <199802081533_MC2-327A-360 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KGVU82.0.qn5.mbatq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feb. 8, 1998 Dear all, Jed Rothwell is absolutely, comprehensively, eloquently right and right on about the desirability of individualized, automatized mass flying systems. As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:20:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15453; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:11:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:11:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980208181020.00885580 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 18:10:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"RwTz83.0.Mn3.Ycatq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:26 PM 2/8/98 -1000, Rick wrote: >Is depleted uranium classed as "unobtanium"? nope....anybody can have even natural U up to some modest limit like 20 pounds. It's called "source material" in regulatory circles and a general license exists to allow possession by anyone. Alfa sells powder and turnings at http://www.alfa.com. I'm pretty sure it's a LOT less dangerous than an equivalent weight of radium. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:24:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24913; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:16:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:16:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34DE4AA1.E38 gold.globalcafe.co.uk> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:15:29 +0000 From: energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk (John Allan) Reply-To: energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk Organization: Energy Solutions X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: E=SOL/1/98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tWWT61.0.156.fhatq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Sirs, I run a small independent campaign in the UK called Energy Solutions promoting ethical and environmental solutions, particularly those within the New Energy Technology field as defined by the INE. I have recently been approached by Commander KEA Shattock, C.Eng, ( retired ) of the Royal Navy and been presented with an opportunity to raise such matters with John Battle MP Minister for Science, Energy and Industry. In a letter letter the MP has stated a view that " no verifiable evidence has been presented practically or through patents to support [ innovators ] claims to have discovered, in effect, a phenomenon unknown to science, whereby more energy was available from the [ fuel source ] than had been used in making it ". He goes on to say, " While it may well be unwise to say that anything is absolutely impossible in science... [ a ] straightforward measurement of energy input [ and output ] would suffice to prove the point and show whether the known laws of physics and chemistry needed to be amended ". He quotes an independent Department of Energy report dated 1991 that I have not seen and it should be noted that the Minister's father was a leading light in the UK Nuclear Programme. I thought someone in your community may be able to provide supportative evidence to suggest the contrary and would appreciate any support especially in the form of reliable scientific references. Your sincerely, John Allan Energy Solutions, London From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:29:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17487; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:22:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:22:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DE4C19.459A interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 19:21:45 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: america References: <01bd34c5$c82c73c0$7f83410c default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"07KYa.0.7H4.Inatq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > > ROFL! I don't know where Johnstown Pa. gets their Tv signal from, But is > Frank Z is tuned to the Dizzy Channel? :-) > Now, Fred, quit maligning us Franks!! I saw the same bit on TV here in Ashtabula, OH. Dammit, man, we get a higher class of programming here than you cowboys out west! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 16:50:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29165; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:42:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:42:13 -0800 Message-ID: <34DE4F6F.6485 gold.globalcafe.co.uk> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 00:35:59 +0000 From: energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk (John Allan) Reply-To: energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk Organization: Energy Solutions X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: E=SOL3/98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA29123 Resent-Message-ID: <"8w1q33.0.W77.Z3btq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sirs, One of our campaigns is raising people's awareness of " The Energy Aparthied ", the political and economical implications of undemocratic energy policy decisions. Having just received this, I enclose useful extract that cross relates to you areas of interest. If anyone has a specific interest in global energy policies and the developing nations, I welcome their support. Regards, John Allan ENERGY POLICIES FUEL GLOBAL POVERTY By Mark Thompson LONDON (Reuter) - The developing world's fight against poverty stands little chance of success without a major overhaul of the global energy market, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) said Friday. Massive subsidies for conventional sources of energy such as oil and gas, inefficient consumption and daunting capital investment requirements hit the poorest hardest and cause serious environmental damage, the UNDP said. '`The needs for energy in the growing economies of the developing world will increase dramatically in the next 20 years,'' said Anders Wijkman, UNDP deputy administrator and one of the authors of the report entitled 'Energy after Rio — Prospects and Challenges'. ``Implementing sustainable energy strategies is one of the most important levers human kind has for creating a sustainable world,'' he said. The UNDP said energy sector investments account for more than a quarter of all fixed capital spending. By the year 2020, if current trends persist, investment in energy production and distribution will reach nearly $750 billion a year from the current $450 billion. ``We think that for many of the poorest developing countries this capital will not be available,'' Wijkman told Reuters. ``And the poorest of the poor hardly benefit anyway because companies mainly aim for areas where there are lots of people who can pay.'' Wijkman said renewable technologies such as wind and solar power, fuel cells and biofuel could provide cheaper, cleaner and more efficient sources of energy than traditional hydrocarbons and electricity. ``For many countries their oil import bill is more of a problem than debt servicing. Even if the costs(of alternatives) are considerable, most can be developed nationally and are labor intensive,'' he said. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 17:41:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04298; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 17:20:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 17:20:13 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: america Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:14:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd34f8$240ff040$7f83410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"XUvCx2.0.431.Cdbtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, February 08, 1998 5:26 PM Subject: Re: america >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >> >> ROFL! I don't know where Johnstown Pa. gets their Tv signal from, But is >> Frank Z is tuned to the Dizzy Channel? :-) >> > >Now, Fred, quit maligning us Franks!! I saw the same bit on TV here >in Ashtabula, OH. Dammit, man, we get a higher class of programming >here than you cowboys out west! I'll have you know, Frank, that my grandfather, John Frederick Sparber (namesake, as I was born on his birthday)was a police officer in Pittsburgh Pa. in the latter part of the 1800s. He joined after a train on the Pennsylvania railroad, on which he was a conductor, was nearly wiped out on a bridge during the Johnstown Flood. I have to admit that his photographs, in full police regallia, handlebar mustache and all,bear a striking resmblance to the Keystone Cops. The photos evoke hidden snicker expressions from my grandchildren. The photo of Great-Great Grandpap in uniform, standing next to his Model T Ford, will be held back until they gain a little respect for their Keystone-State ancestor. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 18:15:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16288; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:13:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:13:06 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Lord Rayleigh's Experiments with Active Nitrogen Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 02:12:50 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34de44af.2513433 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bPZ_b.0.O-3.mOctq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having just read this article in IE Vol. 3 #17 page 89, I notice that the energies per molecule are of the right order of size to be "Mills" energies. This may be early evidence of not only shrunken hydrogen, but oxygen and nitrogen as well. Also of course, multiply shrunken states could give rise to nuclear reactions. Both the consequent new elements, and various shrunken states themselves, may help to explain the hitherto unexplained spectral lines (from other experiments). I note also that best results were obtained at pressures as low as 0.01 torr (Scott!). (BTW the oxygen and nitrogen energies mentioned in the table don't appear to agree with those mentioned in the text. I.e. the two gasses appear to have been swapped). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 19:31:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11803; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:25:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DE7767.5E41 gorge.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 19:26:31 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP filament issue (wall cleaning) References: <199802081931.LAA23686 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xZzSf3.0.Ku2.VSdtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Too bad Larry Wharton isn't on the list any more. He could tell us exactly how to clean those walls with hydrogen: > It has been standard practice for decades at NASA to place heaters in > electric probes to clean them. It has been demonstrated to work well both > in the lab and in spaceflight. The heating cycle that we go through is > very similar to the cycle that the supposed gas phase cf devices are put > through. There this cycle is imagined to be a hydrogen loading cycle but > most likely is just a cleaning cycle. For the electric probes the cleaning > effect is measured through a reduction of the electrical resistance of the > probe. The cleaner probe allows more electrons to pass through the surface > for a given electric potential. We never paid much attention to the lab or > spaceflight data for the probe temperature but I am sure that inspection of > it would show that the probe, with the heater on, was hotter when it was > cleaned. These probes were finely polished, just as the alleged gas phase > cf surfaces are required to be, and when cleaned would be good IR > reflectors and hence poor IR radiators (emissivity = 1 - reflectivity). > So it could be said that NASA was the first to discover gas phase cf. > However, not being knowledgeable in the miracles of cf, we just thought > that we were cleaning the probes. There is most likely nothing of any > interest in gas phase cf and I think that it should be clearly stated. > There is something of interest going on in CETI style cf although it is not > fusion. There should be no linkage made between a purely bogus field (gas > phase cf) and a field with a real artifact demonstrated (CETI style > something). Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 20:13:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17307; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:04:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:04:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980208181020.00885580 mail.eden.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 18:03:45 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium Resent-Message-ID: <"Vwf3V1.0.HE4.c1etq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - <<<< Is depleted uranium classed as <<<< "unobtanium"? > nope....anybody can have even natural U up > to some modest limit like 20 pounds. It's > called "source material" in regulatory > circles and a general license exists to allow > possession by anyone. > > Alfa sells powder and turnings at > http://www.alfa.com. > > I'm pretty sure it's a LOT less dangerous > than an equivalent weight of radium. Well, now I can't remember which material has the very high dielectric constant. Was it a metal or one of the compounds? I think it was the metal. It's also listed on Alfa as "Substance is listed in Toxic Substance Control Act (TSCA) inventory", which is certainly no surprise. Wonder what that means in terms of availability. Thanks for the tip on Alfa. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 20:25:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18786; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:16:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:16:06 -0800 (PST) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199802090414.WAA03275 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: america In-Reply-To: <3636da2.34ddf4bd aol.com> from "FZNIDARSIC@aol.com" at "Feb 8, 98 01:08:58 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:14:46 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aN3Gw2.0.Sb4.4Cetq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Znidarsic wrote: > Now I read about our president and the tape recording his supposid young lady > freind. > > I say put the special prosecutor Star in jail. I wonder, is he reading my E- > mail...yet, I'll bet he would like to. Being a Libertarian, I believe that everyone has the right to tape their own conversations. Being a realist, I expect that when someone stumbles upon the story of a lifetime, recordings will be made. It is human nature. I believe that simultaneously justifies and explains Linda Tripp's actions. Once she presented this credible evidence of perjury, suborning perjury, obstruction of justice and conspiracy, as an officer of the law Starr had little choice but to either investigate it himself or turn it over to the justice department. Since it involved covered persons (Clinton) under the independent counsel act, Reno and the three judge appeals court panel quickly gave it back to Starr with expanded authority. Clearly Monica Lewinsky was urging Linda Tripp to conspire to commit perjury and obstruct justice (lie to the civil court re the Paula Jones matter.) As I say, I am a Libertarian, and thus always mindful of the potential for abuse of police powers. I just don't see it in this case. Lewinksy is in trouble because she blabbed conflicting stories to too many people. Then she signed a sworn affidavit and urged her friend to lie in her own affidavit. Unless you want falsely sworn affidavits to go unpunished (and thereby render affidavits worthless) I don't see what choice the prosecutors have in turning a blind eye to it. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 21:31:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18363; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:22:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:22:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34DE9141.849 skylink.net> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:16:49 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"S_rpx1.0.rU4.OAftq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > Well, it begs the question "what were you looking for?". Exactly. Problematically, if you do succeed in producing a curl free A field, theoretically there is no classical way to detect it. So how do you know you have it and what purpose is it anyway? The importance of J.P Wesley's article in Apeiron, is that there may be a classical way to detect a curl free A field. An electron shot into the field on one side of the coil should exit the field sooner (or later) than an electron shot with the same velocity into the field on the opposite side of the coil. Yet, remarkably each electron must emerge from the field with no change in momentum (no work done by the field). If this is true, it is a profound breaking of time symmetry. Beta decay would have nothing on this. If you can produce an externally symmetric, or otherwise well defined curl free A field, you could fairly easily conduct the experiment. Can the field be produced? An infinite solenoid without any leakage flux between turns would come close. But the external B field is not quite zero because there must always be a single turn of transverse current -- down the coil and back the return path. Also it may prove difficult to find enough material and time to construct the coil. And unfortunately, after you spend an infinite time making it, you must spend another infinite amount of time and energy charging it with current. The coaxial capacitor with spinning plates suggested earlier, would solve two problems -- no leakage flux, and no need for a return (transverse) current path. But unfortunately, all magnetic flux moves in closed loops, and just as with the linear coil, unless you build it infinitely long, you must inevitably have return flux (external B field). One way to eliminate the need for return flux outside the coild is to use a toroidal coil. This solves the return flux problem, but does not avoid the small external B field from the transvere component of current (single-turn of axial current). You also create an asymmetrical A field, which may or may not disturb the symmetry breaking property mentioned above. Besides, why would anyone want to build a time machine? Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 22:18:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29186; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:12:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:12:12 -0800 Message-ID: <19980209043746.16543.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.229] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Future transportation system Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 20:37:42 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"6NE921.0.y77.xuftq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Peter Aldo writes: > > So you want complete control, a bunch of mindless robots controlled by a > higher power- tracked and continually monitored. > >Exactly! Just like airplanes, trains and ships. A hundred years ago, all high >speed ground transportation was by railroad and streetcar under centralized >control. It was efficient, reliable, safe and economical. The problem was it >lacked flexibility and convenience. I want to combine the best features of old >fashioned transport with the best of today's. People think that we have >reached the end of history and we are stuck with our present transportation >nightmare, but I see enormous room for progress. Eventually, I hope we have >individual unscheduled mass air transport. (Unscheduled, but not >uncontrolled.) Goods will go from factory to shopping mall by unmanned, robot >air transport. Individuals and families will have their own small aircraft. >Unlimited clean energy, VTOL craft (vertical take-off and landing), improved >GPS navigation and automatic ground control will make it possible. The only >problem will be noise. > > > Sorry, I'll choose FREEDOM. No reduction in deaths is worth the price of > freedom. > >I don't get it. We are talking about optimizing the transportation system. >What does that have to do with political freedom? The goal is to get people to >their destination as swiftly and conveniently as possible, at a low cost, with >the least harm to passengers and the environment. We want FREEDOM from traffic >jams and wasted time. We want 12 year old kids, disabled people, blind or old >people to hop into a vehicle by themselves, tell the computer where to go, and >visit their friends or go to the movies or work -- by themselves, without >imposing on family or friends. That's maximum freedom and maximum independence >for everyone! If we could demonstrate such a transportation system in a major >city every American would clamor for it. Nobody would talk about "the price of >freedom." > >Another advantage will be that you can get as drunk as you like at a bar or >your friend's house, sleep the whole way home, and the computer will wake you >at your doorstep. (The house maid/butler robot will meet the car and help >you through the door, too.) > > > When you give up freedom, and accept control....guess what.... you are > no longer free. > >From 1820 to 1920 everyone in the U.S. rode centrally controlled railroads for >long distance travel and for most commuting, with no threat to people's >rights. I am sure my grandfather never considered the Long Island Railroad a >threat to his freedom! In the late 21st century people will no more want to >operate an automobile than you or I would want to pump our own water, or weave >our clothes by hand, or turn a crank to raise the escalator in a shopping >mall. Manually operated high speed transport just isn't good enough. The error >rate per passenger mile is orders of magnitude too high. People should never >do a job that machines can do better. > >- Jed > > Increased controlled public transportation would be a good idea for decreasing dangerously overcrowded highways.However, there is a big difference between controlled public transportation and privaely owned vehicles being centrally controlled by big brother. One's whereabouts could easily be monitored. One doesn't have to be a criminal to worry about such things. If someone doesn't agree with God Government's policies, then they shouldn't live in fear of being monitored and tracked down. Things are bad enough as they are for a lot of people who aren't harming anyone, but just want to be left alone- to be free. Peter Aldo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 22:26:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06299; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:18:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:18:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 01:13:29 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802090116_MC2-3286-B581 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"ghyYb.0.KY1.x-ftq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Peter Aldo writes: More controlled public transportation would definitely be a good thing and would cut down on the dangerous problem of overcrowded highways. However, there is a big difference between public transportation and privately owned vehicles being centrally controlled by big brother. One's whereabouts could easily be tracked and monitored in such a system as you propose. . . . I hate to say this, but your whereabouts can already be tracked by the telephone and credit card companies. Every time you log on to Internet, place a credit card call, buy gas or groceries with a cash card, or ride in an airplane you can be located. In the telephone and data communications business (which is what I do for a living) everyone knew that twenty years ago. We do not need highway implanted transponders to keep track of people; we can do it today. Really, the only question is, are we going to let the telephone company do it and make use of the information any way they like. Or do we make sure that only authorized government agents, who can be held accountable, are allowed to track people with a proper warrant. In any case, I think the difference between public and private transportation is meaningless. An automobile is a small component in the public transport highway system. Without pavement and traffic lights an automobile is useless. It is like a computer on the Internet: the network makes it work. Public highways are presently paid for out of gasoline taxes, but with CF (or some other form of zero cost energy) that will not work. There will have to be a large annual fee, or transponder based system that collects tolls on every road from every passing car. I would favor the latter, because that way people who drive the most pay the most. Also, we can start charging $5.00 or $10.00 per trip for every car that enters downtown Atlanta or New York, which will solve the traffic problem overnight. People who drive cars should pay more than subway commuters. Cars cause more damage, noise and expense, and they require more infrastructure. I really do not think it would be an issue, but if people objected to being followed by the transponders, they could have anonymous prepaid "cash cards" like the ones VISA introduced two years ago that went nowhere. A useless, mismarketed product! If someone disagrees about God Government's policies, they are not going to want to be in fear of being hunted down. As I said, it is already easy to track down people. Unless you give up credit cards and the like . . . We can even track down the most talented computer and teleco switch hackers, who are masters at evasion. Things are bad enough for a lot of people who aren't harming anyone, but just want to be left alone. Things will only get worse! You must pay a price for living in a high tech society. People who insist on being left alone will have to give up the benefits of high tech, cash-free living and telecommunications. Some people do, of course. While I am on the subject of telecom laws and practices, let me point out something about a statement that John Logajan made: Being a Libertarian, I believe that everyone has the right to tape their own conversations. . . . If this is a statement of John's beliefs its fine, but readers should be cautioned that in the U.S. it is strictly against the law to tape record a conversation on the telephone or in person without permission from the person you are recording. It's a violation of wire tap laws. It is also against the law to listen in on a telephone conversation on a party line, extension, or PABX line or operator console. When corporations wish to record they had to inform the person, ask permission, and sound an audible tone periodically. ("Beep!") I have known cases where bosses at corporations got in trouble for eavesdropping on employees. Whether this pertains to e-mail transmission or not is an issue that the courts and Congress have not yet decided. Private wire taps are also against State laws in Maryland, Virginia and Washington D.C., where the incidents in question occurred. One other minor legal point. The affidavit in question has been ruled ineligible as evidence in the civil trial it was originally intended for. Therefore, according to some well-informed lawyers I know, it is null and void, and Lewinsky cannot be held liable for perjury, and even if the President or others advised her to lie they also cannot be held liable, because no damage was done, because the document is void. That is how it works with civil cases. I do not know about criminal law. In any case, it is unheard of for the government to pursue a perjury case in a civil suit of this nature. It is human nature. I believe that simultaneously justifies and explains Linda Tripp's actions. Not legally, it doesn't. If her target was an ordinary citizen, instead of the President, she would probably be arrested for wiretapping and blackmail, according to my Legal Beagles. Getting back to automated transport, Jay Olson, who may not have read Clarke's book, wrote: Are you kidding, Jed? Automatic transmission is too much automated control for a lot of people -- myself included! Unless you enact laws that make driving for yourself illegal ("Imperial Earth" once again! only this time not so attractive), there will be millions of car enthusiasts who would never use such a computer controlled system. Yes. The fellow told his off-planet guest "it hasn't been legal to drive on the public road for centuries." But you miss the point, Jay. By the time this happens people will not even know what an automatic transmission is. Highways today have signs saying "no bicycles or pedestrians" and of course you are not allowed to ride a horse either. Back in 1898, if you had proposed banning horses from the public highways, people would have said you are crazy, we will never give up horses, cars are too fast as it is, laws banning horses would be draconian, they would violate of my right to travel anywhere I like, what is the world coming to, millions of horse enthusiasts will never use these newfangled automobiles, it's Un-American, etc., etc. In other words, they would have reacted the same way people like Jay Olson and Peter Aldo do today. They did! They tried to ban automobiles. They set speed limits at 6 mph. And, in fact, they were right. Automobiles *have* usurped many of our rights, and destroyed our cities. Horse enthusiasts and pedestrians have been pushed aside. It is the price of progress. The majority of us decided we preferred a different transportation system. We found it was not compatible with the old: mixing horses and cars just isn't safe. Someday, our great grandchildren will decide that mixing automatic vehicles with manually operated ones just isn't safe, and since the automatic cars will be vastly superior, faster, safer, easier, and cheaper -- just as cars are faster and safer than horses -- the new technology will push the old aside. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 8 23:31:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04270; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:28:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:28:03 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:27:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199802090116_MC2-3286-B581 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3395937B14 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"ulmJ81.0.a21.20htq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote, > Yes. The fellow told his off-planet guest "it hasn't been legal to drive on > the public road for centuries." But you miss the point, Jay. By the time this > happens people will not even know what an automatic transmission is. Don't be so sure. Technology is advancing in this area much faster than you think. It is very concievable that computer guided transportation will become the norm within our lifetimes. Existing automobiles need only be equipped with the appropriate sensors and computers, and the roads fitted with magnets or some other way to let the car know where it is. It has already been done on test roads, in fact. I believe there is an article in this month's "Road and Track" magazine about it. Perhaps I am analagous to the horseman who saw his first "no bicycles or pedestrians" sign 100 years ago. The technology will arive (and wouldn't it be ironic if I helped to develop it!) but it will be a sad day for me. I will resist the transition as long as I can -- not on the basis of the technological superiority of the driver, but for emotional reasons. There's just nothing like hundereds of horsepower at the touch of the accelerator and the feel of the road in your hands. :-) JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 05:09:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05776; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:04:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:04:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:57:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd355a$4527b1c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"pbhBo3.0.6Q1.0xltq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jay Olson To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, February 09, 1998 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Jay Olson wrote: The technology will arive (and wouldn't it be ironic if I helped to develop it!) but it will be a sad day for me. I will resist the transition as long as I can -- not on the basis of the technological superiority of the driver, but for emotional reasons. There's just nothing like hundereds of horsepower at the touch of the accelerator and the feel of the road in your hands. :-) I think you would be ecstatic riding on the back of an elephant, Jay. The acceleration isn't too great but the horsepower is impressive, and they run on peanuts. :-) Regards, Frederick JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 05:57:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11451; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:53:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 05:53:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980209134615.6557.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.194] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 05:46:10 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"VCUJS.0.fo2.3fmtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Peter Aldo writes: > > More controlled public transportation would definitely be a good > thing and would cut down on the dangerous problem of overcrowded > highways. However, there is a big difference between public > transportation and privately owned vehicles being centrally controlled > by big brother. One's whereabouts could easily be tracked and monitored > in such a system as you propose. . . . > > I hate to say this, but your whereabouts can already be tracked by the >telephone and credit card companies. Every time you log on to Internet, place >a credit card call, buy gas or groceries with a cash card, or ride in an >airplane you can be located. In the telephone and data communications business >(which is what I do for a living) everyone knew that twenty years ago. We do >not need highway implanted transponders to keep track of people; we can do it >today. Yes, this is a large part of the problem- our freedom is jeopardized by the fact that we can be put under surveillance so easily. Its something that should be changed, not made worse. >Really, the only question is, are we going to let the telephone >company >do it and make use of the information any way they like. Or do we make sure >that only authorized government agents, who can be held accountable, are >allowed to track people with a proper warrant. Unfortunately, and I am far from the only one who knows this, but the government and police agencies cannot be held accountable for anything if they choose not to be. The reason for this is that they hold the supreme power in this country, not the people like it is supposed to be. I have studied many cases of improper searches of peoples houses and cars being made while the police get off scott free. >I really do not think it would be an issue, but if people objected to being >followed by the transponders, they could have anonymous prepaid "cash cards" >like the ones VISA introduced two years ago that went nowhere. A useless, >mismarketed product! It may not be an issue for someone who is happy with going along with the current system, but that is getting less common these days. The majority of the people I talk to are completely disilusioned by our corrupt government. Pre-paid phone cards are a huge success. I don't see why pre-paid cash cards went nowhere-maybe someone didn't like them because too much freedom was involved. > > If someone disagrees about God Government's policies, they are not going > to want to be in fear of being hunted down. > >Things will only get worse! You must pay a price for living in a high tech >society. People who insist on being left alone will have to give up the >benefits of high tech, cash-free living and telecommunications. Some people >do, of course. Giviing up the right to personal freedom is the price for a technological society? I truly hope this doesn't have to be the case. I see no need to give out personal information in order to benefit from societies advancements. Peter Aldo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 06:13:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10061; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:00:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:00:34 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:56:35 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: What is E=SOL/1/98? Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802090859_MC2-3292-9183 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"F3ISR1.0.7T2.1mmtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk John Allan, of Energy Solutions, writes: I have recently been approached by Commander KEA Shattock, C.Eng, (retired ) of the Royal Navy and been presented with an opportunity to raise such matters with John Battle MP Minister for Science, Energy and Industry. What is this in reference to? Which energy systems are you talking about? Which patents, which claims? In a letter the MP has stated a view that " no verifiable evidence has been presented practically or through patents to support [innovators] claims to have discovered, in effect, a phenomenon unknown to science, whereby more energy was available from the [fuel source ] than had been used in making it ". I do not understand the last sentence. It is true yet not true. It is not true in the sense that all energy systems from coal mines to breeder reactors produce far more energy than the equipment "used in making it." (That is, in extracting it.) On the other hand it is true because no energy system violates C. of E. None claims to as far as I know. As for the term "phenomena unknown to science," I sometimes wonder if anything is known to science. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 06:42:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16553; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:28:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:28:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34DEBBE0.4AE98525 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 08:18:40 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Stress Field Detector? References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="pinn1.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="pinn1.txt" Resent-Message-ID: <"8eX-E2.0.Z24.z9ntq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Does anyone know anything about the below material? Jack Smith Pinnacle Oil International Inc. [According to Barron's, the President is R. Dirk Stinson] is an oil and gas exploration and development company with exclusive rights to the Stress Field Detector (SFD). [According to Barron's, the CEO is George Liszicasz, who is the inventor of the SFD and who is said to have studied physics and electronics in Hungary.] The SFD technology is based upon a quantum phenomenon and has been proven to be an accurate device for petroleum exploration. The SFD affords a capability to carry out 'wide-area exploration' far more rapidly than any traditional methods thus offering an unparalleled opportunity to locate new highly productive oil fields at the fraction of the cost of conventional methods. Unlike seismic, the processed data of the SFD indicates fractured zones, major mineralization, large underground water tables, reservoir fluid types and 'commercial viability' - and performs this in a fast moving vehicle 'in real time'. The Company's Common Stock currently trades on the OTC Bulletin Board under the symbol PSFD. The operating strategy of Pinnacle Oil International Inc. is to engage in the exploration, discovery, financing and development of hydrocarbon deposits. Management believes that by utilizing the SFD, it has a substantial competitive edge over other oil and gas companies in discovering new highly productive oil fields. The SFD can be defined as a "wildcat hunter" able to find even difficult prospects such as pinnacle reefs at a very low cost. During the autumn of 1996, an independent geologist performed an extensive evaluation of the SFD in Alberta, Canada. An abstract of the evaluation report is included. Evaluation of Stress Field Detector Technology Implications for Oil and Gas Exploration in Western Canada Rod Morris, P. Geologist September 30,1996 Abstract A field evaluation of Pinnacle Oil International Inc.'s Stress Field Detector technology (SFD) was conducted in southern Alberta between September 16 - 28th , 1996. A complete and detailed copy of the report may be obtained by contacting Pinnacle Oil at invest pinnacleoil.com The evaluation involved over 1000 miles and 27 hours of SFD recordings. Field tests were designed to assess the applicability and reliability of the SFD technology in detecting significant oil and gas accumulations over a variety of hydrocarbon trap types and reservoirs. Discussions with Mr. George Liszicasz regarding performance of the SFD indicated that the technology is currently more conclusive when looking for hydrocarbons in limestone and dolostone reservoirs. Therefore, for the purposes of these field tests, SFD Profiles were specifically directed at Mississippian and Devonian age carbonate reservoirs. During the course the field trips a number of Cretaceous clastic reservoirs were traversed. Although they were not intended to be evaluated in this report, one traverse is included as an example. Six oil and gas trap types representing the primary hydrocarbon trapping mechanisms of Mississippian and Devonian reservoirs in central Alberta were evaluated by selecting and traversing 20 specific oil and gas pools. During the evaluations the vehicle used to transport the SFD was driven by the author. The SFD operator did not have any prior notice of the intended route nor the oil and gas accumulations that were traversed. Several observations were made during the field evaluations: * The SFD records an anomalous response over known oil and gas accumulations; * The SFD appears to become more definitive in proportion to the size and quality of the hydrocarbon accumulation; * Pools within the boundaries of larger regional hydrocarbon reservoirs were detected substantiating the ability of the SFD to detect multiple horizon oil and gas accumulations; * Oil versus gas accumulations can be successfully differentiated as experience is gained in an area; * Existing boundaries of the fully developed pools were be delineated with accuracy's approaching several hundred meters; * The SFD becomes saturated with signal over large pools which can extend their apparent size. Multiple traverses from opposing directions must be conducted to minimize this effect;. * Signal saturation appears to be cumulative, decreasing instrument sensitivity during extended use; The field tests were directed at the Devonian Leduc, Nisku and Wabamun formations; and the Mississippian Pekisko and Elkton formations. Oil pools evaluated ranged in size from 6.6 million to 88 million barrels in place and from 0.25 to 6 square miles in aerial extent at depths ranging from 5200 to 7300 ft. Gas pools evaluated ranged in size from 25 billion to 1.9 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in place and 2 to 112 sq. miles in aerial extent at depths ranging from 5,000 to 11,700 feet. Anomalous SFD responses were recorded over 19 of the 20 targeted known pools and all of the six trap types surveyed. These responses clearly demonstrate the effectiveness of the SFD to detect significant hydrocarbon accumulations. Although SFD technology is in its infancy, it will add an entirely new dimension to oil and gas exploration. This technology compliments and significantly enhances the conventional tools of seismic, subsurface geology and airborne geophysical surveys that are currently in widespread use by the oil and gas industry world wide. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 06:54:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17021; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:48:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:48:42 -0800 Message-ID: <19980209144745.5668.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [194.73.204.2] From: "Rob King" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: PMOD Project Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 06:47:45 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"JzQGo1.0.n94.8Tntq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi to everyone, I have bought the parts to build the PMOD project as detailed in Greg Watson's Web site. Has anyone done any work on these high frequency one-way-tranformers yet? The PMOD looks just like that device in the Manual of Free Energy vol 2, the one with the 6 secondary cores vertically arranged around a central primary core. I suspect that unless you continue the pulse for a few cycles the initial power consumed for the first pulse will be far greater than the power collected from the secondary windings. But if you start cycling +ve and -ve then the drive circuit becomes more complex. I notice that nobody has mentioned any research to do with Greg for quite some time. Was it an April fool joke that went on a bit long or what? So Greg, how are you progressing with this 10kw domestic generator? If the PMOD project does work it may explain where Stan Meyer got his excess hydrogen/oxygen from, but then again he couldn't prove it in a court of law and this would make him a liar or something. I wonder how the BAT-mobile (90 MPG) is getting on. Or...how Jean-Claude Naudin is doing with his research on the RQM device. Rob King (remember me? I did the project on the motor/generator with the magnets and coils, that didnt work.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 06:59:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18874; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:57:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:57:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199802091457.GAA18836 mx1.eskimo.com> Date: 09 Feb 1998 09:09 EST Sender: "Gene Batten" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Gene Batten" Subject: re:Fwd: BAAT Resent-Message-ID: <"Zx2Jp2.0.kc4.Mbntq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for posting the following report about BAAT. Unfortunately, I was unable to read the attached file. Could you please e-mail it directly to me. I my give R. Vargo a try. Thanks, Gene Batten mdleb nortel.ca In message "Fwd: BAAT", you write: > Many times in the past I has lost money on impulsive moves and hot tips on the > stock market. I really don't understand all of the company reports and how > this fits into the big picture. I have now employed the services of > independent analysist Robert Vargo. Bob is semi retired and watches the > market all day long every day. It is his life. He also studies companies. > I have found my broker pushes his products and doesn't look into what I want. > I now pay R Vargo $20 to check a stock before I leap. This has, believe me, > saved me once or twice much more than $20. If you ask him he will do the same > for you. rvargo1062 aol.com. I > am pleased with his service. He told me to lighten up on technology in > September. This helped. Here is his $20 report on BAAT technologies. > .............................................................................. > ... > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 07:30:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23034; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:21:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:21:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Cell Clean-up (Number Crunching) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:15:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd356d$8d058ae0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"nfuk93.0.pd5.1yntq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: N = Number of Molecules/cm^3 = 2.69E19*P*To/Po*T P = 2 Torr, T = 550 K Po = 760 Torr, To = 300 K N = 2.69E19*2*300/760*550 = 3.86E16 Molecules/cm^3 M.F.P. = Mean Free Path = 1/(pi)*N*molecular radius^2 ~= 0.01 cm Wall collision rate, Molecules/cm^2/sec = 0.25*N*v v = (kT/0.5M)^1/2, For H2 ~= 2.1E5 cm/sec Thus 0.25*N*v ~= 2.0E21 molecule-wall collisions/cm^2/sec That's a lot of collisions and would indicate that the molecules adsorbed on the innards of the cell should mix in or react with the H2 in a short time? The M.F.P. indicates that lower pressures may be more effective in clean-up? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 07:40:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24163; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:29:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:29:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980209232836.006e624c cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Sender: jwinter cyllene.uwa.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 23:28:36 +0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: John Winterflood Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena In-Reply-To: <34DE9141.849 skylink.net> References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gSacE2.0.Sv5.13otq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: >One way to eliminate the need for return flux outside the coild is to >use a toroidal coil. This solves the return flux problem, but does not >avoid the small external B field from the transvere component of current >(single-turn of axial current). ... The single turn of axial current is easy to avoid in practice - just continue winding a second layer but reverse the direction of progression to go back over the first layer thereby undoing the axial turn. I believe the A-B effect was measured on a completely curl-free A-field simply by using a miniature toroid of permanent magnet material (ie no coil at all) and coating it all over with a superconducting layer. On reducing the temperature below the superconducting threshold, all the B-field is very well trapped inside the material of the little toroid and none is left outside. Of course using a toroid is asymmetrical since some electrons are sent throught the hole and some around the edge, but if you wanted to be so fussy you could make it in the shape of a figure eight and then fire electrons through each hole. One of the main problems of the electron diffraction A-B type experiments is managing to make a magnetic coil or core so microscopically thin that the electrons are close enough to interfere when they reach the other side. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 07:45:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24819; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:32:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:32:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DF2165.6E4C interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:31:49 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people References: <3395937B14 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"64beX2.0.i36.W6otq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jay Olson wrote: (snip) > There's just nothing like hundereds of horsepower at the > touch of the accelerator and the feel of the road in your hands. :-) > ...and the heft of your lance as the charging mastodon lunges thru the narrow gorge - your fellow tribesmen poised with their stony blades at the ready... :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 10:07:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15859; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:56:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:56:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:55:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34DF2165.6E4C interlaced.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <3E0ACC4749 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"1s0w13.0.it3.5Dqtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > There's just nothing like hundereds of horsepower at the > > touch of the accelerator and the feel of the road in your hands. :-) > > > ...and the heft of your lance as the charging mastodon lunges thru > the narrow gorge - your fellow tribesmen poised with their stony blades > at the ready... :-) > > Frank Stenger >I think you would be ecstatic riding on the back of an elephant, >Jay. The acceleration isn't too great but the horsepower is >impressive, and they run on peanuts. :-) > >Regards, Frederick As general George S. Patton once said (at least in the movie) "God, how I hate the 20th century." Now I gotta go do my particle physics homework... :) JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 10:15:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25061; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:58:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:58:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199802091754.MAA08164 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Kevin L. Wolf - Dead Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 12:59:15 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"G3D0J3.0.K76.EFqtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: One of the big names in cold fusion in the early days was Dr. Kevin L. Wolf at Texas A&M -- he got tritium and neutrons then and spoke of them and published widely. I have just learned that Dr. Wolf died recently -- I was reading the ACS Division of Nuclear Chemistry and Technology newsletter (Fall, 1997) about a symposium in "memory" of him. I then called Prof. Bockris, who confirmed that Wolf had died suddenly -- he did not know of what cause, I'm not sure the Texas papers mentioned it. Wolf was about age 51. The very tragic aspect about Wolf was that subsequent to his uncalled-for renouncing of his tritium measurements (during the Gary Taubes Inquisition of 1990), Wolf was paid by that nasty character Tom Schneider of EPRI to DISPROVE cold fusion! Well, Wolf did nothing of the kind: he immediately found elevated neutron counts from P&F experiments -- in 1992. He also got some of the "hottest" (in a radiation sense) Pd rods in the history of cold fusion. The rods had numerous transmutations apparent within them that were confirmed by gamma ray analysis -- see Issue #2 of Infinite Energy ("Alchemy Nightmare: Skeptic Finds Heavy Element Transmutations in Cold Fusion Experiment!", pp.30-32). Wolf was set to give a keynote talk about these at ICCF4, but Tom Schneider dissuaded him and he never showed. He was going to present the data -- of which he was totally convinced. However, he did not think that the Pd rods had become radioactive due to "cold fusion" but rather due to some kind of cosmic WIMP particles that just happend to be passing by while he was doing his CF experiments!! Talk about trashing Occam's Razor -- no better example could be found. Well, poor Wolf, the man who egged on Taubes and who by keeping his mouht shut helped the TAMU inquisition against Bockris, has died with much good work to his name in cold fusion. But Wolf is a man who became a traitor to the cause of scientific truth -- at least as regards cold fusion phenomena. Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 10:21:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27452; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:08:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:08:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:04:49 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802091308_MC2-3292-AEFE compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tP3z2.0.si6.vOqtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Well this really is getting off topic, but what harm? Regarding the ability of credit card and telephone companies to monitor our lives, Peter Aldo writes: Yes, this is a large part of the problem- our freedom is jeopardized by the fact that we can be put under surveillance so easily. Its something that should be changed, not made worse. I agree! This does jeopardize our freedom. Unfortunately, it is done for a good reason, and it will probably get worse. I do not see good technical solutions. (And it is an important part of my job to look for them!) People want the convenience of credit card shopping. They do not want to carry cash. They do not want to pay a huge surcharge to cover the cost of credit card theft. Therefore, the credit companies must perform on-line checks of every transaction, and they must keep close track of who is spending money where, in what patterns. This inevitably leads to abuses. Frankly, I think carefully written regulations and rigorous enforcement by the police are the only way to ameliorate the problem. Unfortunately, and I am far from the only one who knows this, but the government and police agencies cannot be held accountable for anything if they choose not to be. The reason for this is that they hold the supreme power in this country . . . Hmmm. . . . this is an interesting perspective. I have spent many hours, days . . . weeks, actually, in telephone equipment rooms watching the data course through the networks. I used to deal with telco and interconnect people daily. I have never seen a law enforcement agent or government official abuse privacy or threaten liberty. What I have seen many times is telephone installers, billing people, and credit organizations breaking into private communications, playing peeping tom, disseminating data they should not have had access to in the first place, screwing up billing and credit records, tapping confidential information, etc., etc. Look at the small print in your telephone book and you will learn about the loopholes in wire tap laws that allow telecos to spy on you, supposedly "to ensure the quality of the connection." In real life, in my experience over 20 years, unregulated private industry is a greater threat to your freedom than the government. Of course that might change someday. Government and police can be investigated and voted out of office. When a credit rating company screws you, you have cannot do much about it. Any person in the world, including a violent ex-husband, can look up a name and address on the World Wide Web. Medical records are scandalously easy to retrieve. I have studied many cases of improper searches of peoples houses and cars being made while the police get off scot free. No doubt! And I have personally witnessed similar abuses of power by private industry. Pre-paid phone cards are a huge success. Using cash in a pay telephone is a nuisance. This is a narrow market niche. I don't see why pre-paid cash cards went nowhere-maybe someone didn't like them because too much freedom was involved. Nope. No conspiracy. Nothing like that. VISA spent millions of dollars promoting them in Atlanta during the Olympics. They set up card readers in Chick Filet and other fast food restaurants, and put the card vending machines in many locations. Today they are gone. People did not bother with them. For most transactions, they had all of the disadvantages of cash: you can lose them; they run out after only $100; you have to keep going back to the teller/vending machines. Plus they had the disadvantages of a credit card: they are slow and complicated. They had no apparent advantages. Giving up the right to personal freedom is the price for a technological society? I truly hope this doesn't have to be the case. This is incorrectly phrased. We do not *give up* personal freedom by depending on electronic credit and communications, we jeopardize it. We run the risk that the government or TRW will learn about our private lives in detail. I am truly sorry but that is the case. Like it or not, that is how society works. We should face facts and deal with the risks. We cannot turn back the clock. Ignoring the problem or railing against it with simplistic right-wing rhetoric will not make it go away. Blaming the government will not help: we, ourselves, devised this system to fill our needs, and we depend upon it. We can reduce risks by devising good software and by helping Congress draft good legislation. Smart, technically savvy people must warn society of the risks and help develop solutions. Issues like Internet web site "cookies" must be taken seriously. That is our social responsibility. People who do not want to run the risks must drop out of society, and cancel credit cards, telephone connections, e-mail accounts, bank accounts, and keep their money under a mattress. This too is risky behavior. I see no need to give out personal information in order to benefit from societies advancements. The need is manifest. You must give out the information with every credit transaction or people will steal credit cards and throw our economy into chaos. I see no alternative. You have a better idea? In real life, I am sanguine about these threats to freedom. I know a lot about them. I have first hand, on-the-job exposure to them. In a place like Singapore I would be terrified by the power the information networks give the government. But in the U.S. I am not so worried. From my perspective, living in the Deep South, people in the U.S. today have more liberty than ever before. We are more secure in our homes. We are safe against abuses by the government, and -- more importantly -- we are safe against terrorists organizations like the Klu Klux Klan and the Mafia, and abusive corporations. Forty years ago half the population of Georgia could not vote! Citizens who tried to vote were butchered by the Klan not ten miles from where I live. Local governments and police were in cahoots with the Klan. It was awful! At the turn of the century crowds of Klansmen rioted, burned down neighborhoods, and killed dozens of people while the police looked the other way. In the very spot where I live, literally outside my door, you will find spent bullets and roadside markers from Civil War encampments. That war was the most serious threat to liberty in our history. It took the lives of 600,000 Federal Troops to suppress it. Every day you live in the Deep South you thank God they succeeded. (That is, you thank God if you are black or married to, related to, or good friends with black people - as I am. Some white folks feel resentful.) I do not understand why people worry about the government using violence against citizens. The only time it happened here was in 1864 when the Feds burned down the city and slaughtered thousands of rebelious citizens. (See "Gone with the Wind.") I, for one, am very glad they did it! I am *glad* the government has tanks and heavy weapons. If the dire, inescapable need ever arises again, as it did here in 1864, I hope they use them against Americans quickly and decisively. Better that than another Antietam, another Gettysburg . . . It is a shame the Feds waited until 1963 to come back and finish the job by enforcing integration and the Voting Rights Act with bayonets. So far, every major violent act by the U.S. Government has brought liberty, light, justice and prosperity to this formerly benighted region. Given this background, it is no wonder that people like me have little fear of the Federal Government, whereas we are terrified of "militia groups" and others who would take the law into their own hands. They look like the Klan to me. I suppose it is a matter of personal experience and perspective. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 10:42:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22387; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:32:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:32:10 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:31:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP filament issues Resent-Message-ID: <"nTk5b2.0.gT5.Xkqtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little asks: > Should I try the glow discharge cleaning method >for the walls of the chamber? Do we need to change to a glass chamber to >get rid of the metal-oxide coated walls? I say, "No." Glass is a solution of oxides. In the presence of atomic H, glass is probably also reduced, and it is a much bigger source of oxygen, until one fully reduces the glass surface to its constituent cations, Si, Ca, Na, etc. I vote for the filament improvement ideas: either a Pt filament or a W filament with more mass (eg. a longer filament at about the same diameter). There is only a limited amount of reducible oxygen on the walls, and once it is tied up in W oxide, filament erosion ought to decrease markedly. Another thought: have two filaments, one sacrificial, the other for the experimental run. Also, Scott wrote: > As far as I can tell, BLP does not have such a good vacuum. I agree. Not only do dthe not have as low a base pressure as you, they must have lots of oil vapor, too. Maybe oil vapor protects the W filament??? It wrenches my experimental plasma physicist soul to suggest that you to do a run using only your forepump (:<() Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 10:55:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24306; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:43:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:43:10 -0800 (PST) From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199802091841.AA05653 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 98 11:37:17 -0500 To: Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QaWCU.0.ix5.yuqtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Being a Libertarian, I believe that everyone has the right to tape their >own >conversations. . . . >If this is a statement of John's beliefs its fine, but readers should be >cautioned that in the U.S. it is strictly against the law to tape record a >conversation on the telephone or in person without permission from the person >you are recording. It's a violation of wire tap laws. It is also against the >law to listen in on a telephone conversation on a party line, extension, or >PABX line or operator console. When corporations wish to record they had to >inform the person, ask permission, and sound an audible tone periodically. >("Beep!") I have known cases where bosses at corporations got in trouble for >eavesdropping on employees. Whether this pertains to e-mail transmission or >not is an issue that the courts and Congress have not yet decided. Private >wire taps are also against State laws in Maryland, Virginia and Washington >D.C., where the incidents in question occurred. This was on the news last nite [Denver] -- basically they said that it is perfectly legal for one party to record conversations and not inform the other party they are being recorded....in most states. There were only a handful of states that it was illegal in [5 or 6]. This is not considered a wiretap though.....I thought a wiretap/phonetap was recording without either party knowing......and that is illegal, if you get caught. And with the corporation issue -- That would be considered a wiretap, but falls into a legal "grey area"....Corporations are not public telephone carriers......Much of your "personal" privacy is invaded in ways that we would never tolerate in other arenas. What's the legalty of email, URL, or sniffer monitoring? BTW -- I'm not a legal expert. Just saw conflicting info on the news. Anton Rager arager McGraw-Hill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 11:06:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05834; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:53:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:53:48 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34DE9141.849 skylink.net> References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:54:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Resent-Message-ID: <"cFwLZ.0.-Q1.x2rtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Robert Stirniman wrote: >An infinite solenoid without any leakage flux between turns would come >close. But the external B field is not quite zero because there must >always be a single turn of transverse current -- down the coil and back >the return path. You can avoid the "single turn of transverse current" by using a two-layer winding. The second windings must come back over to the first with _exactly_ the same number of turns. Another advantage: the two leads are now right next to each other, so there is little stray magnetic field from the current feeds. Actually, any _even_ number of winding layers has the same good properties. Infinite, or very long, solenoids are very inconvenient. One alternative is to use an iron core instead. The typical transformer core, with two windows, has considerable symmetry. The Fe core will automatically give a fairly low transverse field in the two windows. However, the stray field will not be exactly zero. The strays can be reduced by distributing the winding suitably around the iron path. The correct distribution depends on geometry and properties of the core and is not easy to calculate. One could approach the minimal stray state via extensive trial and error and a good gaussmeter. One can avoid the iron core by not building a solenoid, but by designing a coil with a somewhat solenoidal-like central "column" and suitably distributed turns far outside to guide the return flux around. (We solve this design problem every time we design a modern tokamak.) The A-B experiment must be mounted within the space between the "column" and the return coils. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 11:49:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15489; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:32:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:32:20 -0800 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD63D xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:31:12 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"2QZ8x1.0.xn3.2drtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank You Hank > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:72240.1256 compuserve.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, February 09, 1998 10:04 AM > To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com > Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people > > To: Vortex > > Well this really is getting off topic, but what harm? Regarding the > ability of > credit card and telephone companies to monitor our lives, Peter Aldo > writes: > > Yes, this is a large part of the problem- our freedom is > jeopardized by > the fact that we can be put under surveillance so easily. Its > something > that should be changed, not made worse. > > I agree! This does jeopardize our freedom. Unfortunately, it is done > for a > good reason, and it will probably get worse. I do not see good > technical > solutions. (And it is an important part of my job to look for them!) > People > want the convenience of credit card shopping. They do not want to > carry cash. > They do not want to pay a huge surcharge to cover the cost of credit > card > theft. Therefore, the credit companies must perform on-line checks of > every > transaction, and they must keep close track of who is spending money > where, in > what patterns. This inevitably leads to abuses. Frankly, I think > carefully > written regulations and rigorous enforcement by the police are the > only way to > ameliorate the problem. > > > Unfortunately, and I am far from the only one who knows this, but > the > government and police agencies cannot be held accountable for > anything > if they choose not to be. The reason for this is that they hold > the > supreme power in this country . . . > > Hmmm. . . . this is an interesting perspective. I have spent many > hours, days > . . . weeks, actually, in telephone equipment rooms watching the data > course > through the networks. I used to deal with telco and interconnect > people daily. > I have never seen a law enforcement agent or government official abuse > privacy > or threaten liberty. What I have seen many times is telephone > installers, > billing people, and credit organizations breaking into private > communications, > playing peeping tom, disseminating data they should not have had > access to in > the first place, screwing up billing and credit records, tapping > confidential > information, etc., etc. Look at the small print in your telephone book > and you > will learn about the loopholes in wire tap laws that allow telecos to > spy on > you, supposedly "to ensure the quality of the connection." In real > life, in my > experience over 20 years, unregulated private industry is a greater > threat to > your freedom than the government. Of course that might change someday. > > Government and police can be investigated and voted out of office. > When a > credit rating company screws you, you have cannot do much about it. > Any person > in the world, including a violent ex-husband, can look up a name and > address > on the World Wide Web. Medical records are scandalously easy to > retrieve. > > > I have studied many cases of improper searches of peoples houses > and > cars being made while the police get off scot free. > > No doubt! And I have personally witnessed similar abuses of power by > private > industry. > > > Pre-paid phone cards are a huge success. > > Using cash in a pay telephone is a nuisance. This is a narrow market > niche. > > > I don't see why pre-paid cash cards went nowhere-maybe someone > didn't > like them because too much freedom was involved. > > Nope. No conspiracy. Nothing like that. VISA spent millions of > dollars > promoting them in Atlanta during the Olympics. They set up card > readers in > Chick Filet and other fast food restaurants, and put the card vending > machines > in many locations. Today they are gone. People did not bother with > them. For > most transactions, they had all of the disadvantages of cash: you can > lose > them; they run out after only $100; you have to keep going back to the > teller/vending machines. Plus they had the disadvantages of a credit > card: > they are slow and complicated. They had no apparent advantages. > > > Giving up the right to personal freedom is the price for a > technological > society? I truly hope this doesn't have to be the case. > > This is incorrectly phrased. We do not *give up* personal freedom by > depending > on electronic credit and communications, we jeopardize it. We run the > risk > that the government or TRW will learn about our private lives in > detail. I am > truly sorry but that is the case. Like it or not, that is how society > works. > We should face facts and deal with the risks. We cannot turn back the > clock. > Ignoring the problem or railing against it with simplistic right-wing > rhetoric > will not make it go away. Blaming the government will not help: we, > ourselves, > devised this system to fill our needs, and we depend upon it. We can > reduce > risks by devising good software and by helping Congress draft good > legislation. Smart, technically savvy people must warn society of the > risks > and help develop solutions. Issues like Internet web site "cookies" > must be > taken seriously. That is our social responsibility. > > People who do not want to run the risks must drop out of society, and > cancel > credit cards, telephone connections, e-mail accounts, bank accounts, > and keep > their money under a mattress. This too is risky behavior. > > > I see no need to give out personal information in order to > benefit from > societies advancements. > > The need is manifest. You must give out the information with every > credit > transaction or people will steal credit cards and throw our economy > into > chaos. I see no alternative. You have a better idea? > > In real life, I am sanguine about these threats to freedom. I know a > lot about > them. I have first hand, on-the-job exposure to them. In a place like > Singapore I would be terrified by the power the information networks > give the > government. But in the U.S. I am not so worried. From my perspective, > living > in the Deep South, people in the U.S. today have more liberty than > ever > before. We are more secure in our homes. We are safe against abuses by > the > government, and -- more importantly -- we are safe against terrorists > organizations like the Klu Klux Klan and the Mafia, and abusive > corporations. > Forty years ago half the population of Georgia could not vote! > Citizens who > tried to vote were butchered by the Klan not ten miles from where I > live. > Local governments and police were in cahoots with the Klan. It was > awful! At > the turn of the century crowds of Klansmen rioted, burned down > neighborhoods, > and killed dozens of people while the police looked the other way. In > the very > spot where I live, literally outside my door, you will find spent > bullets and > roadside markers from Civil War encampments. That war was the most > serious > threat to liberty in our history. It took the lives of 600,000 Federal > Troops > to suppress it. Every day you live in the Deep South you thank God > they > succeeded. (That is, you thank God if you are black or married to, > related to, > or good friends with black people - as I am. Some white folks feel > resentful.) > I do not understand why people worry about the government using > violence > against citizens. The only time it happened here was in 1864 when the > Feds > burned down the city and slaughtered thousands of rebelious citizens. > (See > "Gone with the Wind.") I, for one, am very glad they did it! I am > *glad* the > government has tanks and heavy weapons. If the dire, inescapable need > ever > arises again, as it did here in 1864, I hope they use them against > Americans > quickly and decisively. Better that than another Antietam, another > Gettysburg . . . > > It is a shame the Feds waited until 1963 to come back and finish the > job by > enforcing integration and the Voting Rights Act with bayonets. So far, > every > major violent act by the U.S. Government has brought liberty, light, > justice > and prosperity to this formerly benighted region. Given this > background, it is > no wonder that people like me have little fear of the Federal > Government, > whereas we are terrified of "militia groups" and others who would take > the law > into their own hands. They look like the Klan to me. I suppose it is a > matter > of personal experience and perspective. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 12:29:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27820; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:15:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:15:13 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980209144745.5668.qmail hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:15:16 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: PMOD Project Resent-Message-ID: <"9439.0.co6.GFstq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Rob - > Was it an April fool joke that > went on a bit long or what? That's about right. I think Greg has discredited himself over the SMOT affair, and it would probably not be a useful expenditure of time to try to duplicate any of his ideas at this point until he himself shows proof that *he* can duplicate any of them. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 13:12:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17211; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:02:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:02:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:57:43 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802091600_MC2-32A3-D1AE compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"1Iqbn.0.nC4.Axstq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Anton Rager writes: This was on the news last nite [Denver] -- basically they said that it is perfectly legal for one party to record conversations and not inform the other party they are being recorded....in most states. There were only a handful of states that it was illegal in [5 or 6]. Oh really?!? Every telephone engineer and news reporter I know says it is seriously illegal. (And I have been in switch rooms all over the country.) This is not considered a wiretap though.....I thought a wiretap/phonetap was recording without either party knowing...... Definitely not. Not in Georgia fer' sure. I knew a teleconnect engineer who got into a heap o' trouble for knowingly facilitating this arrangement, called the "silent-camp on feature." Grey areas in the law include situations where a boss watches and listens in on employees with video surveillance cameras without their knowledge. I believe -- but I am not sure -- the employee has to be told the camera is in place. He never knows when it is turned on. That is the rule nowadays for customers in department stores. A sign on the door warns you may be watched "for your protection" (Ha, ha. Hint: it's for *their* protection.) . . . and that is illegal, if you get caught. Ha! Hahahahahahahah . . . It is illegal even if you don't get caught! Unless you believe in the "Stop Sign Rule:" no cop, no stop :-} And with the corporation issue -- That would be considered a wiretap, but falls into a legal "grey area"....Corporations are not public telephone carriers...... They have to warn you, and cut in a circuit. I mean, for example, when you call an insurance company to report a claim, after a while clerk tells you "we will now record this information. Today's date is such-and-such. Please state your name and policy number . . ." He has to tell you before he begins recording. BTW -- I'm not a legal expert. Neither am I and I might be wrong on this, but everyone in the phone business assumes these are the rules. Plus, as I said, I have talked to telcom lawyers and seen written policies for PABX engineers cautioning against this sort of thing. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 13:34:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21378; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:25:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:25:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DF8ED7.68AC keelynet.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:18:47 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people References: <199802091600_MC2-32A3-D1AE compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fzJwY.0.oD5.zGttq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Folks! I don't know if anyone else is wondering what is happening here, but what do these discussions about america, phone taps, people tracking etc., have to do with vortex topics? IMHO, such subjects more properly go to a conspiracy or legal issues forum, not one which I thought was designed to deal with vortex and related issues, and for which I subscribed. I have greatly refrained from making posts here because of the 'volume complaint', not to mention the remarks about 'promoting website's' (that just happens to be where the info resides). It is getting a bit old receiving junk information that I have to delete out of my system....can people please get back on track unless there have been some new guidelines posted that I missed. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 13:45:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23349; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:35:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:35:54 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Whats happening to America (zapping cars) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:29:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35a1$c4667e20$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rkfbU.0.li5.uQttq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Pete Aldo seems a bit angry at public interest authority. Seems that this is not unique. A case in point was a couple of rowdies tied a tow cable around the rear axle of a State Police patrol car parked at a donut shop. The other end of the cable was tied to a large tree nearby. They did a couple of antics in the parking lot that brought the officer out and into the patrol car in peel-out pursuit siren blaring. By the time the the patrol car reached the highway it was literally dragging-ass! :-) DISCLAIMER. Do Not Try This In Southeastern Ohio, Pete. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 14:19:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27724; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:03:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:03:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980209220037.14469.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.193] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:00:36 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"-0vhQ2.0._m6.Xqttq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > Giving up the right to personal freedom is the price for a technological > society? I truly hope this doesn't have to be the case. >This is incorrectly phrased. We do not *give up* personal freedom by depending >on electronic credit and communications, we jeopardize it. We run the risk >that the government or TRW will learn about our private lives in detail. I am >truly sorry but that is the case. Like it or not, that is how society works. Yes, this is how society works and when enough people get threatened about it, then there will be changes. Going back in time or ignoring the problem is not the solution. Going forward with social advancement is the solution. > I see no need to give out personal information in order to benefit from societies advancements. >The need is manifest. You must give out the information with every credit >transaction or people will steal credit cards and throw our economy into >chaos. I see no alternative. You have a better idea? Pay in cash, money order, pre-paid credit cards. Small disadvantage for the benefits gained...depending on who you are. > We are more secure in our homes. We are safe against abuses by the >government, and -- more importantly -- we are safe against terrorists >organizations like the Klu Klux Klan and the Mafia, and abusive corporations. True, but that doesn't mean things can't get better. maybe I'm too much of an an idealist. Unfortunately, not all people are like you. I'm not going to get into the details of my personal life, but my family, many friends, and myself have had such things as land, liberty, and not to mention the pursuit of happiness taken away from by the federal government...none of which were due to criminal reasons. As the grip of control tightens, this will happen to more and more people. >whereas we are terrified of "militia groups" and others who would take the law >into their own hands. They look like the Klan to me. I suppose it is a matter >of personal experience and perspective. Who do you think freed themselves from the tyranny of Britiain in the Revolutionary war... a militia group who called themselves Americans. According to our Constitution, there is not supposed to be a standing army. The people of America gave themselves the right to bear arms and defend themselves from tyranny. Militia groups have no master plan. They are the ones terrified by loss of freedom. Its a reaction to what is going on. I hope this is not the case, but someday your freedoms may be taken away by the government. It is a matter of personal experience, and when a critical mass of people feel the weight, there will changes. I don't want to go back in time, just forward. Peter Aldo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 14:30:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01467; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:26:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:26:14 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP filament issues Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:24:46 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34df7d58.82575666 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7m0w63.0.pM.3Autq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 08 Feb 1998 01:42:35 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >Thanks for all the feedback...I guess we're going to have to fix the >filament problem. > >To recap, our tungsten filament works great in the best vacuum we can >make....but erodes rapidly when we fill the stainless steel chamber with 2 >torr of very pure hydrogen gas, even when there is no KNO3/KNO2 in the >chamber. We also got a similar erosion rate in one test using Ar instead >of H...but the Ar was straight out of the bottle...not purified. [snip] I'm not sure how hot the hottest part of cartridge heater gets, but how about attaching a piece of sacrificial tungsten to it, that you can use to clean up the cell before the filament is turned on? BTW I suspect that BLP moving to a tungsten or molybdenum cell with walls at 2000 C, may be their way of dealing with filament burn out problems ;). Mo has the added advantage that its third ionisation potential makes it a catalyst, just like K+ (or perhaps more accurately, like Rb+). Furthermore, when Mo++ at the wall acts as a catalyst, then that is where the reaction (if any) is likely to take place, making for very efficient transfer of reaction energy to the coolant fluid in contact with the outside of the wall. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 14:56:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04334; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:50:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:50:45 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:44:56 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: [Fwd: GM And Bill Gates] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FIgi31.0.d31.3Xutq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the > computer industry with the auto industry and stated "If GM had kept up with > technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving > twenty-five dollar cars that got 1000 mi/gal." > > Recently General Motors addressed this comment by releasing the statement > "Yes, but would you want your car to crash twice a day?" > > 1. Every time they repainted the lines on the road you would have to buy a > new car. > > 2. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you > would just accept this, restart and drive on. > > 3. Occasionally, executing a maneuver would cause your car to stop and fail > and you would have to re-install the engine. For some strange reason, you > would accept this too. > 4. You could only have one person in the car at a time, unless you bought > "Car95" or "CarNT". But, then you would have to buy more seats. > 5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, > five times as fast, twice as easy to drive, but would only run on five > percent of the roads. > 6. The Macintosh car owners would get expensive Microsoft upgrades to their > cars, which would make their cars run much slower. > 7. The oil, gas and alternator warning lights would be replaced by a single > "general car default" warning light. > 8. New seats would force everyone to have the same size butt. > 9. The airbag system would say "are you sure?" before going off. > > 10. If you were involved in a crash, you would have no idea what happened. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 15:16:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11948; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:12:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:12:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34DFB78C.BEF bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:12:28 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people References: <199802091600_MC2-32A3-D1AE compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KMsND3.0.Zw2.Frutq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > Neither am I and I might be wrong on this, but everyone in the phone business > assumes these are the rules. Plus, as I said, I have talked to telcom lawyers > and seen written policies for PABX engineers cautioning against this sort of > thing. Jed, The laws have changed regarding communications privacy. IANAL, but, as the revised laws were explained to me: You may record any conversation, openly or clandestinely, of which you are a party. You may display that recording to any third party. You may assign an agent to do the recording for you. Businesses may record conversations on their public lines without the requisite, periodic "beep" if so licensed by the authority having jurisdiction in the state (in GA it's the PSC). Phone numbers with these recording devices are indicated in the phone book. Federal agencies are not subject to this license but must be indicated as being recorded in the phone book. You may monitor and record other conversations of which you are not a party; however, you cannot discuss the conversation nor display this recording to any party not involved in the conversation unless the recording was made under court order. (This seems to protect the telephone company employees and supervisors in telephone marketing firms.) There are states which have passed laws in contrary to the above; however, they may be subject to federal judicial review. Check the first few pages of your local phone directory for laws in your particular state. Terry Blanton, PE Communications Engineer From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 16:13:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23505; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:08:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:08:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980209180908.007397c8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:09:08 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 11 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QZaAv1.0.5l5.ffvtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, sports fans, it's up at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run11.html Executive summary: the hydrogen scavenging cycles did not help at all. Mike Schaeffer says: >Glass is a solution of oxides.... oh dear, I've got a significant piece of ceramic tubing in the chamber which supports the thermocouple wires. Also, I've got Ceramaseal metal-ceramic seals for the electrical feedthrus. I would imagine that hydrogen thyratrons also have to have some kind of insulators in them as well...? >I vote for the filament improvement ideas: either a Pt filament or a W >filament with more mass (eg. a longer filament at about the same diameter). we'll be able to try both in a couple of days. >Maybe oil vapor protects the W filament??? It >wrenches my experimental plasma physicist soul to suggest that you to do a >run using only your forepump (:<() Mike, I've worked so hard to get the high-vac side of my system oil-free that I can't even hear that suggestion!... Robin wrote: >I'm not sure how hot the hottest part of cartridge heater gets, but >how about attaching a piece of sacrificial tungsten to it, That just might work. I think the cartridge heater runs well into the red hot region because it radiates so much. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 16:22:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18964; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:12:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:12:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:10:49 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: PMOD Project In-Reply-To: <19980209144745.5668.qmail hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mjHRa3.0.De4.njvtq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Rob King wrote: -snip- > I notice that nobody has mentioned any research to do with Greg for > quite some time. > Was it an April fool joke that went on a bit long or what? > > So Greg, how are you progressing with this 10kw domestic generator? > If the PMOD project does work it may explain where Stan Meyer got his > excess hydrogen/oxygen from, but then again he couldn't prove it in a > court of law and this would make him a liar or something. > -snip- Rob, I sent out a 'SMOT Ping1' subject header here this last week-end to Greg, and got back a personal e-mail quote as follows: " [lurking] <--My ? for still on line (y/n/lurking?) I CAN"T Comment " ---- The above quoted message is 100% the entire reply (LESS header) ---- Sounded like (with the capitalized double-quote CAN"T) legal observance on his part is being maintained to the letter. I will respect that and the fact that when he previously stated that when he could say something, it would be here FIRST on the v-list. -=se=- saddly, 'nuff said, i guess by all. hope this is the Best/Fastest way for all the world to benefit. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 18:07:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16756; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:03:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:03:55 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP run 11 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:59:32 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35c7$87f0a120$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"WI3Eo.0.j54.9Mxtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nice going, Scott. A bit disappointing, but, the higher pressure lower M.F.P. could keep the adsorbed oxygen-H2O on the walls/parts. This "trapping effect" is shown in the operation of the thermocouple vacuum gauges, and is why they are not worth much above 1 torr, i.e., "beta layer" trapping. Also the reason the Crookes Radiometer develops maximum force at about 0.1 torr. Second when the hot filament starts throwing off photons with energy up to almost 3 ev that bounce all over the chamber walls/parts the H2 + MOx ----> M + xH2O reactions are going to happen about as favorably as they would be under very high temperatures or a gas discharge. :-) The initial pressure buildup after letting in H2 could've been from wall/parts H20-release adsorbed and absorbed in grain boundaries etc. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 18:22:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20928; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:19:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:19:08 -0800 Message-ID: <34DFB8CF.8A91210E microtronics.com.au> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:47:51 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Vortex , List Server Newman Subject: Re: PMOD Project References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NJMsF3.0.s65.Qaxtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Steve Ekwall wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Rob King wrote: > -snip- > > I notice that nobody has mentioned any research to do with Greg for > > quite some time. > > Was it an April fool joke that went on a bit long or what? > > > > So Greg, how are you progressing with this 10kw domestic generator? > > If the PMOD project does work it may explain where Stan Meyer got his > > excess hydrogen/oxygen from, but then again he couldn't prove it in a > > court of law and this would make him a liar or something. > > > -snip- > > Rob, > I sent out a 'SMOT Ping1' subject header here this last week-end to Greg, > and got back a personal e-mail quote as follows: > > " [lurking] <--My ? for still on line (y/n/lurking?) > > I CAN"T Comment " > > ---- > The above quoted message is 100% the entire reply (LESS header) > ---- > Sounded like (with the capitalized double-quote CAN"T) legal observance on > his part is being maintained to the letter. > > I will respect that and the fact that when he previously stated that when > he could say something, it would be here FIRST on the v-list. > > -=se=- > saddly, > 'nuff said, i guess by all. > hope this is the Best/Fastest way for all the world to benefit. Hi All, I am currently restrained from ANY comments on ANYTHING even close to my research. In the meantime, I would suggest you check out : 1) US patent 4,897,592 Http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4897592 2) Tapping Zero-Point Energy Http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/free/zpe3.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 18:54:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30360; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:47:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:47:47 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980209223027.00ab4218 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 22:30:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gYpRP1.0.4Q7.G_xtq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I believe the A-B effect was measured on a completely curl-free >A-field simply by using a miniature toroid of permanent magnet >material (ie no coil at all) and coating it all over with a >superconducting layer. On reducing the temperature below the >superconducting threshold, all the B-field is very well trapped >inside the material of the little toroid and none is left >outside. > >One of the main problems of the electron diffraction A-B type >experiments is managing to make a magnetic coil or core >so microscopically thin that the electrons are close enough >to interfere when they reach the other side. > Right on the old nostrils there John. In fact, be sure to check out work done by Akira Tonomura; he did work on electron holography for hitachi in the mid 80's and demonstrated the AB effect quite conclusively. Try Phys. Rev. Lett. 56, 792 (1986) The torroid used for the experiment was more or less as John described, a micromachined torroid of permalloy with a SiO sheath, surrounded by Nb. OD on the torroid was ~6 micrometers. More remarkable, he was able to image individual quanta of flux on a superconductor. They look like little tornados, oddly enough. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 19:34:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06896; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:30:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:30:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980209231313.00ac3758 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 23:13:17 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"hVj_W2.0.fh1.Ldytq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:16 PM 2/8/98 -0800, R.S wrote: > >The importance of J.P Wesley's article in Apeiron, is that there may be >a classical way to detect a curl free A field. An electron shot into >the field on one side of the coil should exit the field sooner (or later) >than an electron shot with the same velocity into the field on the >opposite side of the coil. Yet, remarkably each electron must emerge >from the field with no change in momentum (no work done by the field). >If this is true, it is a profound breaking of time symmetry. >Beta decay would have nothing on this. > >If you can produce an externally symmetric, or otherwise well defined >curl free A field, you could fairly easily conduct the experiment. >Can the field be produced? SNIP > >One way to eliminate the need for return flux outside the coild is to >use a toroidal coil. This solves the return flux problem, but does not >avoid the small external B field from the transvere component of current >(single-turn of axial current). You also create an asymmetrical A field, >which may or may not disturb the symmetry breaking property mentioned >above. > >Besides, why would anyone want to build a time machine? > >Regards, >Robert Stirniman Jeez Robert, what a come on. Seriously, the point about time asymmetry is well taken. When dealing with traveling EM waves one can engineer any velocity variation desired, for example consider a piece of 50ohm air core coaxial cable coupled to a 50ohm poly cored cable. No impedence mismatch, and instant reduction in velocity. No energy lost or gained. I can't help but press this feeble thought to the problem at hand. I'd have to kick back and think about the fact that what we're talking about here is the phase of the electron wave function, which really is another kind of animal from an EM wave. Still, this is what appealed to me about Wesley's article. Perhaps someone can explain to me what the "impedence" means for an electron wave? Also, it goes without saying that I don't have the hardware to build the Tonomura type detector. I'm sure we're all painfully aware of the Gelinas patents; by the way has he published anything else of recent? Last paper I have of his was something published in the ITS proceedings back in '86. Here we are in 1998, there's got to be something closer to off-the-shelf at this point? On the other hand, I can fabricate all kinds of exotic RF and pulse type circuits. And as mentioned earlier, it's no trick to make big A field generators ( thanks M. Schaffer for posting some of the usual suspects :^) Detectors, anyone? KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 19:45:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08724; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:41:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:41:02 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, ltatham@ibm.net From: Ed Wall Subject: [off-topic]Re: america Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:40:21 +0000 Message-ID: <19980210034015.AAB5309 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"Tolge2.0.682.Bnytq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Johnb Logajan wrote: >Clearly Monica Lewinsky was urging Linda Tripp to conspire to commit >perjury and obstruct justice (lie to the civil court re the Paula >Jones matter.) > I haven't seen or heard directly anything from the tapes. I am much inclined to agree with you, but I do not know the evidence. >As I say, I am a Libertarian, and thus always mindful of the potential >for abuse of police powers. I just don't see it in this case. Lewinksy >is in trouble because she blabbed conflicting stories to too many people. >Then she signed a sworn affidavit and urged her friend to lie in her >own affidavit. > >Unless you want falsely sworn affidavits to go unpunished (and thereby >render affidavits worthless) I don't see what choice the prosecutors >have in turning a blind eye to it. Touche' Perhaps the most fascinating thing about this whole legal/moral/political issue is the consummate spinning (lying). Now, for some reason, leaking (which, in political investigations, is about as common as dust in Midland, TX) is a crime greater than perjury. If the polls are even close to an accurate reflection of public opinion, the strategy is a winner. The loser is the careful consideration of the truth. This is about perjury, obstruction of justice and intimidating witnesses being business and politics as usual for this administration. It's not just the government in crisis, it's the state of our country that is imperiled. But I suppose when the tail starts wagging the dog in Iraq soon, this will be quickly be a blurred memory. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 19:48:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08762; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:41:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:41:07 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Transport & tracking people Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:40:27 +0000 Message-ID: <19980210034015.AAD5309 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"i97GR3.0.m82.Hnytq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >readers should be >cautioned that in the U.S. it is strictly against the law to tape record a >conversation on the telephone or in person without permission from the person >you are recording. I would like to know the source of your information. What I have been told by numerous people and heard on radio programs is that such taping is legal if one person knows that a tape is being made, i.e. the one doing the taping. This applies in most states, with some states, such as Maryland, where the Tripp tapes were made, as exceptions. My employer, the federal government, has created regulation that specifically bans such recording for employees, which would seem unnecessary if it were a national or universal state law. The Lewinsky tapes, according to Starr, and the PBS (I think) story I heard, are admissable in a federal investigation, although not usable in a Maryland court. If they were useless to Starr's investigation, we would not even be aware of this as anything more than typical viscious gossip. If it poses some kind of a threat, why would such phone recording paraphenalia at every Radio Shack be tolerated? The fact is that evesdropping is very difficult to prosecute and is a lot more common than we tend to realize. It may be a sad fact, but, on a positive note, it should cause us to be careful what we communicate, always considering a possible wider audience. I think it ironic that government made encryption of phone conversations illegal, so that wiretaps would not be neutralized by certain criminal elements. They make themselves the legal lawbreakers, as was done in the CIA's dealings with criminals in foreign countries. The common theme is the end justifying the means. In the end, we are left with the means. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 19:51:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28078; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:42:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:42:18 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Kevin L. Wolf - Dead Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:40:24 +0000 Message-ID: <19980210034015.AAC5309 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"zkz-V3.0.cs6.Loytq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gene Mallove wrote: >One of the big names in cold fusion in the early days was Dr. Kevin L. >Wolf at Texas A&M -- he got tritium and neutrons then and spoke of them >and published widely. I have just learned that Dr. Wolf died recently -- >I was reading the ACS Division of Nuclear Chemistry and Technology >newsletter (Fall, 1997) about a symposium in "memory" of him. I then >called Prof. Bockris, who confirmed that Wolf had died suddenly -- he did >not know of what cause, I'm not sure the Texas papers mentioned it. Wolf >was about age 51. > A clearer case of intimidation overriding fact in the pursuit of respectability and reputation would be hard to find. >However, he did not think that the Pd >rods had become radioactive due to "cold fusion" but rather due to some >kind of cosmic WIMP particles that just happend to be passing by while he >was doing his CF experiments!! Talk about trashing Occam's Razor -- no >better example could be found. He took the easy way out of a controversy because he replaced one anomaly that might be tested with another that could not be tested, just to avoid the heat. What a legacy. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 20:36:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20940; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:34:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:34:17 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <4548651b.34dfd8b4 aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:33:54 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"SoxIw2.0.075.8Zztq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-09 19:13:04 EST, you write: > Robin wrote: > > >I'm not sure how hot the hottest part of cartridge heater gets, but > >how about attaching a piece of sacrificial tungsten to it, > Scott: > That just might work. I think the cartridge heater runs well into the red > hot region because it radiates so much. > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Scott, yes I like that. How about wrapping the heater with a filiment removed from one of those long quartz heater lamps? Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 20:37:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20325; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:31:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:31:41 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP run 11 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:26:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35dc$1fc31dc0$f7a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-EuJU.0.Uz4.iWztq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A thought, Putting one of the unmodified lightbulbs in series or parallel with the bare filament unit so as to get the power input and photons without the exposure to the hostile environment??? I'm going to go watch Al Bundy fight the system. At least he knows when he's beat. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 21:04:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12013; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:53:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:53:44 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <6ca460a2.34dfdce6 aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:51:48 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"1i9Xe3.0.cx2.Lrztq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-09 19:13:04 EST, you write: > Date: 98-02-09 19:13:04 EST > From: little eden.com (Scott Little) > Reply-to: vortex-l eskimo.com > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > OK, sports fans, it's up at: ...... Scott, Could you try _reducing_ the power to the filiment as soon as tfil starts it's rapid climb, so as to keep the tfil level? Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 21:04:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27024; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:57:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 20:57:15 -0800 Message-Id: <199802100453.XAA02822 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: [off-topic]Re: america Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 23:58:13 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"AB7H-1.0.9c6.guztq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote of the Clinton/Lewinsky/Starr affair: > This is about perjury, >obstruction of justice and intimidating witnesses being business and >politics as usual for this administration. It's not just the government in >crisis, it's the state of our country that is imperiled. Well put. I don't much care whether Slick Willie stays or goes. I detest Gore -- so maybe we should keep a damaged Billy Boy around to fester. All I care about is having the truth come out about lying and obstruction -- if it was/is lying, as seems likely. That will be justice enough for Mr. Clinton, his sycophants, and Lewinsky. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 21:56:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05356; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:53:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:53:24 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP run 11 Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:48:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35e7$940dece0$a691410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"kzIVp1.0.cJ1.Jj-tq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If one wants to stay with tungsten so that the H2 + W = 2 H and K = hot W = K+ + e- then a tungsten-sheathed cartridge heater with a tungsten heater wire packed in MgO made on special order from Watlow or such would be the way to go. This would allow power heater control independent of the attack of the tungsten or other sheath material, and might allow restoration of the sheath by vapor deposition or electroplating, or actually slipping a tungsten, molybdenum, or tantalum,replacement sleeve on the heater unit. A 20 watt heater element could heat a ton of tungsten this way. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 22:11:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24491; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:01:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:01:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DFED0A.33A interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 01:00:42 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980209180908.007397c8@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mH5YD2.0.U-5.8r-tq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Executive summary: the hydrogen scavenging cycles did not help at all. Scott, an idea for a "brute force" solution for extended run time. When you get your tungsten wire, how about installing multiple filaments in parallel across the support-feeds. I don't remember the the filament resistances (cold) of your runs, but say you use 2 ohm, 4 ohm, 8 ohm ...etc. as far as it makes sense to go. Then, bring up the filament voltage enough to bring the 2 ohm up to 2000 deg. Then, at or near burnout, bring up the voltage to raise the 4 ohm to 2000 deg - it would already be hot but, hopefully, not enough to be near failure yet. Then, etc., etc.... with the other higher resistance filaments. If you had multiple support leads, you could just install multiple filaments. I guess a problem would be trying to calculate the temperature of a parallel, stepped array of filaments. Does your computer do simultaneous equations?? I know this keeps changing the filament geometry but then, the single filament already changes geometry anyway during a run! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 23:28:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05055; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:22:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:22:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Thick Tungsten Coatings by Chemical Vapor Deposition Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:53:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35f0$a1187640$7393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD35B5.F4B99E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"PQQe62.0.vE1.e00uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD35B5.F4B99E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.ed-phys.fr/articles/jp3/abs/1995/08/jp30802/jp30802.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD35B5.F4B99E40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" Mass Transport Modelling and Experiments.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" Mass Transport Modelling and Experiments.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.ed-phys.fr/articles/jp3/abs/1995/08/jp30802/jp30802.html Modified=A04D2D78F035BD0175 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD35B5.F4B99E40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 23:28:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18428; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:21:08 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Tungsten and other refractory coatings Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:57:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35f1$1decf1a0$7393410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD35B6.718E19A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5y6u-3.0.lV4.Y__tq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD35B6.718E19A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.ultramet.com/13.html ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD35B6.718E19A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Oxidation and Extreme Environmental Protection.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Oxidation and Extreme Environmental Protection.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.ultramet.com/13.html Modified=E01BCCFCF035BD01A6 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD35B6.718E19A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 9 23:29:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05080; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:22:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:22:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Volume 6, Number 2 of JTST Plasma spraying of Tungsten and Molybdenum Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 00:15:29 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd35f3$aaba40e0$a691410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0" Resent-Message-ID: <"Bn-_-1.0.IF1.j00uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003A_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0" ------=_NextPart_001_003A_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Molybdenum and Tungsten Coatings for X-Ray Targets Obtained through the = Low-Pressure Plasma Spraying Process A.A. Khan, J.C. Labbe, A. Grimaud, and P. Fauchais 228=20 Low-pressure plasma spraying under an argon atmosphere was employed = to deposit molybdenum and tungsten coatings on different metallic, = ceramic, and composite substrates. Molybdenum coatings obtained through = this technique presented a homogeneous structure with an average = porosity of about 17%. These coatings exhibited adhesion greater than 40 = MPa on molybdenum and grey cast iron (FT25) substrates. No adhesion was = observed on an AlN surface regardless of the preheating temperature = and/or surface preparation. Adhesion on AlN-Mo (AM25) composite = substrate, containing 25% dispersed metallic phase by volume, showed = intermediate results. Tungsten coatings exhibited porosity between 10 to = 12% and a typical lamellar structure. The adhesion of tungsten coatings = on molybdenum and FT25 substrates was around 40 MPa. =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Back to JTST Archives=20 ------=_NextPart_001_003A_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Volume 6, Number 2 of = JTST
Molybdenum and Tungsten Coatings for X-Ray Targets Obtained=20 through the Low-Pressure Plasma Spraying = Process
A.A. Khan,=20 J.C. Labbe, A. Grimaud, and P. Fauchais 228
Low-pressure plasma spraying under an argon atmosphere was = employed to=20 deposit molybdenum and tungsten coatings on different metallic, = ceramic, and=20 composite substrates. Molybdenum coatings obtained through this = technique=20 presented a homogeneous structure with an average porosity of about = 17%.=20 These coatings exhibited adhesion greater than 40 MPa on molybdenum = and grey=20 cast iron (FT25) substrates. No adhesion was observed on an AlN = surface=20 regardless of the preheating temperature and/or surface preparation. = Adhesion on AlN-Mo (AM25) composite substrate, containing 25% = dispersed=20 metallic phase by volume, showed intermediate results. Tungsten = coatings=20 exhibited porosity between 10 to 12% and a typical lamellar = structure. The=20 adhesion of tungsten coatings on molybdenum and FT25 substrates was = around=20 40 MPa.
Back to JTST Archives=20

------=_NextPart_001_003A_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <003101bd35f3$aa87e640$a691410c default> R0lGODdhKAAeANUAAP////fv59bOxv/WnGM5ADkhAKVjAHtKAFIxAPfnzv/WlPfOjPe1Su+tQv+t If+lEPecAO+UAN6MAMZ7AGtCAEIpAMa9rf/nvf/WjNatY//GWv+9Sve1Qu+tOcaMIf+tGLV7EN6U EL17CO+cAM6EAIxaAFo5AP/vzv/ntf/WhP/Oa/e9Sv+9Od6lMe+lEOecAK1zAHtSAEoxAPfv3v/e lPfWjP/We+etMWtKAP/nrf/WczkpAP/ehP/33v//9wAAACwAAAAAKAAeAAAG/0CAcEgsGo/IpHKJ TASYUOVJ0YhZothhr8ZxSXCVa5Y55YwiEJKpIhOPjz3FyhUZjSAThGzvfgt7A2ZndncwMmx8fgAn NQyEj3cGiHttWT6MgoR1gyMlk3qVUJicm5t3EQeTlKFJW4KmdrAQX6qgrEUnCw0RL7y+vcC8LyNq n6u3QigbH8zNzs/MDi+HtpSgfUKXOQo2KSnd397g4Ck6IKrHyEQ+PTkYNvDx8vEpPCGHMqC22Egn 7vMAu7VYk05dEnYo3gWEh6EDgR36Er3pgYJbQAwsDkBcxQ8LQoXyMGgoUYCjonUULcIrZ6CkxJMo E67UIQJRR5hCTlSs5+Elzhkj7C4MuGHi5s8iMzIIOMq0qdOnUKNKzRIEADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BD35B8.FE5B68E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 03:55:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24507; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:52:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:52:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E03DD6.20AA skylink.net> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:45:26 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980209231313.00ac3758 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4aJWT1.0.p-5.qz3uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: >>Besides, why would anyone want to build a time machine? > Jeez Robert, what a come on. Sorry. Maybe too much Wilbert Smith, or H.G. Wells, or something. Wilbert Smith, was a talented and well respected electrical engineer, and also a UFO buff. Towards the end of his career he wrote some very odd stuff, supposedly sourced by extra-terrestrials. Some things he wrote about "tempic" fields is uncannily similar to the vortex-free A-field of a toroidal coil. Also, I saw the movie "Ransom" a few days ago. The kidnapper tells an analogy about the Eloi and Morlocks. Maybe I've got time machines on my tempic lobe. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 05:37:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26340; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 05:32:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 05:32:44 -0800 From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <3b5c21ef.34e056d4 aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:32:01 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: ddameron earthlink.net, mrandall@earthlink.net, jlagarde@cyberaccess.fr, HLafonte aol.com, WBahmann@compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Interesting motor design..... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"HO8Tn1.0.UR6.xR5uq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, I have updated my web site with an interesting motor design. This motor is based on the diagram below, courtesy of Nelson Camus. Nelson Camus has said to me that : "This motor is able to run by itself and give FreeNRG from the magnets when the aluminium sheets are removed from the blocking position (between the magnets). After they are removed, the motor starts itself without stopping, like a real perpertual motion motor. The coils 1,2,3,4 are used only for tapping the magnetic energy and convert it into useable electrical power........" You will find all informations and diagrams at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qmmv8.htm I think that this will interest you, Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin 02/10/98 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 06:14:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07766; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:09:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:09:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980210140749.12335.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [194.73.204.2] From: "Rob King" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting motor design..... Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:07:48 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"Gqr6H2.0.Fv1.X-5uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Lois, This looks very interesting, does the prototype you have built work? Will it run on its own, and how can I build one like it? How is your research with RQM progressing? Speak to you soon Rob King >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 05:36:49 1998 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26340; > Tue, 10 Feb 1998 05:32:44 -0800 >Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 05:32:44 -0800 >From: JNaudin509 aol.com >Message-ID: <3b5c21ef.34e056d4 aol.com> >Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:32:01 EST >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Cc: ddameron earthlink.net, mrandall@earthlink.net, jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, > HLafonte aol.com, WBahmann@compuserve.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: Interesting motor design..... >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 >Resent-Message-ID: <"HO8Tn1.0.UR6.xR5uq" mx1> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15897 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > >Hi All, > >I have updated my web site with an interesting motor design. > >This motor is based on the diagram below, courtesy of Nelson Camus. > >Nelson Camus has said to me that : > >"This motor is able to run by itself and give FreeNRG from the magnets when >the aluminium sheets are removed from the blocking position (between the >magnets). After they are removed, the motor starts itself without stopping, >like a real perpertual motion motor. The coils 1,2,3,4 are used only for >tapping the magnetic energy and convert it into useable electrical >power........" > >You will find all informations and diagrams at : > >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qmmv8.htm > >I think that this will interest you, > >Sincerely, > >Jean-Louis Naudin >02/10/98 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 06:52:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15441; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:47:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:47:14 -0800 (PST) X-ROUTED: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:42:02 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <34E0658D.E3A3A84E southconn.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:34:54 -0500 From: paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting motor design..... References: <3b5c21ef.34e056d4 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3o2xr1.0.7n3.kX6uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Louis....took a look at this on your website...could not get the real audio to work.... Do not see how this motor could work...if you have it working could you please supply an explanation....thank you....steven opelc JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > Hi All, > > I have updated my web site with an interesting motor design. > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qmmv8.htm > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 07:47:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28647; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:41:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:41:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:36:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, ddameron@earthlink.net, mrandall@earthlink.net, jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, HLafonte@aol.com, WBahmann@compuserve.com Subject: Re: Interesting motor design..... In-Reply-To: <3b5c21ef.34e056d4 aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"btkpF2.0.W_6.3L7uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Jean, Grand to see you building up these machines. Q: It reads "Quantum Motor...." ..... What is "quantum" about it ? Why not just say "motor"? or "prime mover"? Q: What is aluminum supposed to 'block'? J On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 JNaudin509 aol.com wrote: > Hi All, > > I have updated my web site with an interesting motor design. > > This motor is based on the diagram below, courtesy of Nelson Camus. > > Nelson Camus has said to me that : > > "This motor is able to run by itself and give FreeNRG from the magnets when > the aluminium sheets are removed from the blocking position (between the > magnets). After they are removed, the motor starts itself without stopping, > like a real perpertual motion motor. The coils 1,2,3,4 are used only for > tapping the magnetic energy and convert it into useable electrical > power........" > > You will find all informations and diagrams at : > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qmmv8.htm > > I think that this will interest you, > > Sincerely, > > Jean-Louis Naudin > 02/10/98 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:08:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02105; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:58:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:58:05 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Message-ID: <8b6c28be.34e07886 aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:55:48 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Interesting motor design..... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"DBlrx3.0.kW.3a7uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Louis, Do you have any reason to believe that the motor truly runs as described, or is it just the inventor's claim? Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:22:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05298; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:13:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:13:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:06:02 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Wiretap rules Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802101109_MC2-32C5-626A compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"kPFjy1.0.dI1.ao7uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Terry Blanton posted a helpful up-to-date summary of the wiretap rules, which, as he says, have changed considerably since I learned about them: You may record any conversation, openly or clandestinely, of which you are a party. You may display that recording to any third party. You may assign an agent to do the recording for you. That's a huge change! I do not like it. I presume this applies to Georgia and other BellSouth territory, where Terry works. Anyway, according to news reports in the Washington DC area the old rules are still in effect. Ed Wall asks: If it [recording] poses some kind of a threat, why would such phone recording paraphernalia at every Radio Shack be tolerated? Because these machines have legitimate uses. They are like kitchen knives. It is okay to buy one to cut up vegetables but not people. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:27:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06755; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:20:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:20:52 -0800 (PST) From: JNaudin509 aol.com Message-ID: <4f45ea14.34e07dff aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:19:09 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Puthoff aol.com, harti@harti.com, herman@antioch-college.edu, paula southconn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re : Re: Interesting motor design..... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"h8UhW2.0.Of1.Uv7uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On 10/02/1998 18:06:28 , Hal wrote : << Do you have any reason to believe that the motor truly runs as described, or is it just the inventor's claim? Hal Puthoff >> Hi Hal, Today this is ONLY the inventor's claim (Nelson Camus), today my purpose is to CHECK this claim. This is the reason why I am currently testing this device. Tests are not yet finished..... Today the motor does not run self-powered, I need to send short pulses with an external electronic circuit. BUT the interesting thing is that the magnetic repulsive force seems to vanish as the speed increases ( >500RPM)... More to come about my tests feedback, soon..... Ps: I have also added some pictures about Magnetic motors that I am currently testing in my labs.... You will find it at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/qmmalbum.htm I am also interested by all magnetic motors proposals for testing.... Nice to speak with you soon and share my feedback experiments.... Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin 02/10/98 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 08:47:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09410; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:32:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:32:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:06:16 -0500 From: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com, Ed Wall " <72240.1256@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Kevin L. Wolf - Dead Sender: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com, Ed Wall " <72240.1256@compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802101109_MC2-32C5-626B compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"8vDZo2.0.uI2.B48uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Ed Wall wrote: A clearer case of intimidation overriding fact in the pursuit of respectability and reputation would be hard to find. [Wolf] took the easy way out of a controversy because he replaced one anomaly that might be tested with another that could not be tested, just to avoid the heat. I never met Wolf, but I think Bockris told me he was an assertive and ambitious person. He was not fazed by Taubes or anyone else. He did not bend to pressure. I think he sincerely believed the changes in the palladium were caused by a WIMP particle. He was trying to "avoid the heat" of cold fusion, not the heat of controversy. Like most mainstream scientists, he despised CF. He did not want to see it so he went looking for some other hypothesis. I don't know . . . maybe he was a wimp with WIMP particles. He repeatedly signed up for ICCF conferences and then ducked out at the last minute. McKubre told me he was upset with Wolf's attitude. He thinks Wolf's results are the clearest evidence yet found that CF is a nuclear effect. (Nuclear as opposed to some other anomalous energy like ZPE.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 09:16:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09201; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:06:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:06:29 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980209180908.007397c8 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:06:39 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 Resent-Message-ID: <"MIluL3.0.6F2.Da8uq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >oh dear, I've got a significant piece of ceramic tubing in the chamber >which supports the thermocouple wires. Also, I've got Ceramaseal >metal-ceramic seals for the electrical feedthrus. Hmmm. I suggest removing the internal thermocouple and its associated ceramic tubing. This tubing is pretty close to your atomic H zone. I don't think your thermocouple is supplying any important data, anyway. It's reading is too influenced by other ambient conditions. Besides, the gas temperature has to be very nearly equilibrated with the wall temperature near the wall and with the filament and cartridge near them, respectively. IOW, the gas has large temperature gradients and has no unique temperature. The ceramic seals might be far enough away from the atomic H to not be a problem. If worst comes to worst, they could be partially shielded by eg. thin metal shim stock. > I would imagine that hydrogen thyratrons also have to have some kind of >insulators in them as well...? Good point. I never had one open to take a look. Small ones probably had glass envelopes and mica (more oxides) electrode spacers! I wonder if they used an oxide coated cathode instead of pure W? Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 10:01:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27142; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:48:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:48:32 -0800 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C0AD641 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:47:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"JFUqj2.0.Qd6.eB9uq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert As I'm sure you know, building a time machine to go to the future is relatively easy if not practical. Just go somewhere at nearly the speed of light, turn around, and come back again. It will be as far in the future as you like when you get back, and if you go fast enough, you won't have aged hardly at all. Hank > ---------- > From: Robert Stirniman[SMTP:robert skylink.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 1998 3:45 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena > > Keith Nagel wrote: > >>Besides, why would anyone want to build a time machine? > > > Jeez Robert, what a come on. > > Sorry. Maybe too much Wilbert Smith, or H.G. Wells, or something. > Wilbert Smith, was a talented and well respected electrical > engineer, and also a UFO buff. Towards the end of his career > he wrote some very odd stuff, supposedly sourced by > extra-terrestrials. > Some things he wrote about "tempic" fields is uncannily similar to > the vortex-free A-field of a toroidal coil. Also, I saw the movie > "Ransom" a few days ago. The kidnapper tells an analogy about the > Eloi and Morlocks. > > Maybe I've got time machines on my tempic lobe. > > Regards, > Robert Stirniman > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 11:07:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19718; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:57:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:57:34 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:52:34 -0500 From: Attila the Hun <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Test - Make War not Peace Sender: Attila the Hun <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802101355_MC2-32C5-7740 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tZ3HZ3.0.kp4.KCAuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Hmmm . . . . I accidentally sent a message with a "From" line and it came out asigned to Ed Wall. I wonder if I can impersonate others with this hidden CompuServe Mail feature. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 11:28:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27652; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:23:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:23:37 -0800 From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199802101923.AA11120 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 98 12:11:32 -0500 To: Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Test - Make War not Peace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"nPxAh.0.vl6.uaAuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >To: Vortex > >Hmmm . . . . I accidentally sent a message with a "From" line and it >came out asigned to Ed Wall. I wonder if I can impersonate others >with this hidden CompuServe Mail feature. > >- Jed Welcome to the woolly internet -- you never really know who a message came from. That from: line can be faked, as can many other things. It's not a CIS feature......Contact me offline if you want more info -- no need to clutter the list BTW -- sorry folks. I would have replied directly, but my mailer is stripping headers. Could folks put their reply-to address in their sig info? Anton Rager arager McGraw-Hill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 11:39:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11489; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:33:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:33:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980210193059.20459.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [209.48.94.231] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Explanation for RMOG behavior (not O.U.) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:30:58 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"z9gLX.0.Lp2.ejAuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello all, For more than three years, I've been working on a generator, the Permanent Magnet force Alternator, which is similar to Greg Watson's RMOG , and finally believe I have found explanation for what resembles anti-Lenzian behavior. As many of you know, this generator requires less mechanical energy to spin it when under load as compared to the no load condition. This claim is true. My Permanent Magnet force Alternator does this as well as Greg Watson's DNMEC effect. (I'm not talking about a self running RMOG which I have signficant doubts about). Here's the explanation: 1. When the generator is operating in the no-load condition, there are great hysterisis losses due to the ferromagnetic material that completes the magnetic circuit between the wire-wound ferrite rod and the permanent magnet (see greg Watsons picture on his DMNEC Theory page). In my generator, the magnetic circuit is closed by steel plates on the back of the magnets. The RMOG also has steel connecting the magnetic flux paths. The use of steel is a cause for great hysterisis losses as well as eddy current losses. Heat is produced as a result. Energy from the drive motor is needed to account for the energy losses due to hysterisis and eddy currents. 2.. Now here's why less drive motor energy is needed to spin the generator when it is loaded or shorted: When the generator is put under load, the coil sets up a magnetic field which opposes the changes in magnetic flux in the magnetic circuit. THE OPPOSING OF THE MAGNETIC FLUX BY THE MAGNETIC FIELD OF THE COIL GREATLY REDUCES HYSTERISIS AND EDDY CURRENT LOSSES IN THE STEEL PARTS OF THE MAGNETIC CIRCUIT. THIS RESULTS IN A DECRESE IN THE ENERGY NEEDED TO OPERATE THE DRIVE MOTOR. It looks like a violation of Lenz's law, but its not. Oh well, back to the drawing board. If anyone has any comments regarding the validity of this explanation, please let me know. Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 12:15:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09985; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:09:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:09:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:03:58 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Subject: AT .... Call home ..Re: [OFF TOPIC] Test - Make War not Peace In-Reply-To: <199802101355_MC2-32C5-7740 compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mQX6r.0.vR2.DGBuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now let's see... Does this mean Jed is AT Hun? Or Ed is AT Hun? Or AT sent message to Ed.... or Jed ...? Or Jed or Ed sent message to AT AT .... Call Home .... If you already have one glass case with toads and moss in it ... and you get a second one the you DO know the second one is an Extra Terrarium. ------------------------------------- J On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Attila the Hun wrote: > To: Vortex > > Hmmm . . . . I accidentally sent a message with a "From" line and it came > out asigned to Ed Wall. I wonder if I can impersonate others with this > hidden CompuServe Mail feature. > > - Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 15:20:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05733; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:17:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:17:44 -0800 Message-Id: <34E0A223.B5CFC788 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:53:23 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Rrmx-1.0.GP1.L0Euq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I am not convinced that an infinite long coil or a toroidal coil have not magnetic field outside. Specially, at closer of windings field strength should be same on inside and outside. Only outer field should weaken quickly by the distance. could anyone prove mathematically that such a coil have no field outside? Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 15:45:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12977; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:38:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:38:47 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:39:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd367d$1eac1d50$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5o20U3.0.eA3.5KEuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Scott Little wrote: >oh dear, I've got a significant piece of ceramic tubing in the chamber >which supports the thermocouple wires. Also, I've got Ceramaseal >metal-ceramic seals for the electrical feedthrus. Unfortunately I have no direct experience with atomic hydrogen reduction of vacuum materials. In plasma display tubes the reduction of materials by plasma reactions is often a problem. The plasma breaks down the oxides and the oxygen is gettered by the clean metal electrode surfaces. The key to avoiding these reactions is to use materials that are not easily reduced. Low melting point soda and lead glasses are very easily reduced but borosilicate glass is better and quartz is quite resistant. SiO2 coatings were often used to avoid this problem. Another problem is removal of water from the material. Soda glass ( common window glass) needs to be held under vacuum at about 410 C to remove sufficient surface and bulk water to build stable plasma displays. Ceramic materials come in a very wide range of compositions, some of which are excellent stable vacuum materials while others hold large amounts of water which outgasses easily. The ceramics you are using are probably reasonable from the outgassing point of view, since the filament operates properly until hydrogen is admitted. The surface resistance to reduction should depend upon the ceramic composition. Ceramics composed of MgO (fosterite), Al2O3, or SiO2 should be quite resistant to reduction while alkali metal oxides and lead oxide should be avoided. The two options which seem most viable at this point would be enclosing the filament in an atomic hydrogen reduction resistant tube (with the catalyst also inside) or reducing the internal surfaces with the glow discharge cleaning procedure in hydrogen as previously suggested. A very thin coating ( a few atomic layers )of reduced or resistant material is probably all that is required. Materials are available which upon firing in air leave thin SiO2 coatings on surfaces. Spray on, burn off -> SiO2 coating. If you do any cleaning with Ar and H2 watch for any possible XSH as Ar+ is reported by BLP to be a hydrino catalyst and the discharge will create atomic H. This reaction would have such obvious advantages that its efficiency is probably low or BLP would be using it . George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 16:49:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA30416; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:43:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:43:46 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210193900.006b92b4 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:39:00 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: What is E=SOL/1/98? Cc: energy gold.globalcafe.co.uk (John Allan) In-Reply-To: <199802090859_MC2-3292-9183 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ISCEj1.0.5R7.0HFuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 08:56 AM 2/9/98 -0500, Jed wrote: > In a letter the MP has stated a view that " no verifiable evidence has > been presented practically or through patents to support [innovators] > claims to have discovered, in effect, a phenomenon unknown to science, > whereby more energy was available from the [fuel source ] than had been > used in making it ". > >I do not understand the last sentence. It is true yet not true. It is not true >in the sense that all energy systems from coal mines to breeder reactors >produce far more energy than the equipment "used in making it." (That is, in >extracting it.) On the other hand it is true because no energy system violates >C. of E. None claims to as far as I know. As for the term "phenomena unknown >to science," I sometimes wonder if anything is known to science. First, many thanks to John Allan for bring up this subject. Second, Jed is correct. The question is flawed; it reads: > " ... no verifiable evidence has > been presented practically or through patents to support [innovators] > claims to have discovered, in effect, a phenomenon unknown to science, > whereby more energy was available from the [fuel source ] than had been > used in making it ". Perhaps it should be: Is there verifiable evidence to support the existence of a phenomenon whereby more energy is available from the [fuel source] than is normally chemically available, and is used to derive that energy? Yes, cold fusion, and fission. At this time, muon fusion and hot fusion appear to require more energy to control, or generate their actions, then is obtained. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 17:15:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18700; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:10:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:10:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E0F9CC.6352 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:07:24 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oWiyW2.0.2a4.PgFuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Hi, > > I am not convinced that an infinite long coil or a toroidal coil have not magnetic field outside. Specially, at closer of windings field strength should be same on inside and outside. Only outer field should weaken quickly by the distance. > > could anyone prove mathematically that such a coil have no field outside? > Hamdi, if I am not mistaken, for this to be rigorously true, we must consider the current to flow in "current sheets" rather than wire windings. For a toroid, the current would flow only around the small diameter of the toroid and have zero component around the large way. Given this, my physics book then applies Ampere's law in the form: Line integral of(B dot dL) = mu_0 * i where dL is an element of length of the path of integration, L B dot dL is the component of B parallel to L i is the total current threading through the surface formed by the closed path, L mu_0 is the permeability of space (assuming an air core toroid) If you choose L to be a path around the large diameter of the toroid, just outside the current sheet, You can see that the total current through the path L is zero since as much flows "in" the surface of L as flows "out" of it - adding to zero. The rest is believing in the symmetry of the problem. This according to my physics book! Of course, the same argument holds for a path, L, inside the hole of the toroid. I think this nearly true for "real" toroidal coils wound with small wire and/or in two layers, wound in opposite directions as explained in a recent post by Mike Schaffer. That's about as mathematical as I can get. Hope I didn't make a mistake! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 17:24:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06058; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:20:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:20:53 -0800 Message-ID: <19980211012010.11671.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [194.88.91.170] From: "John Allan" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: E=SOL3/98 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:20:09 PST Resent-Message-ID: <"rk8m-3.0.UU1.opFuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you Dr Swartz for your reply with regards my request for reliable reference material, We are reviewing the literature presented for the public by the Joint European Torus project in the light of the validate claims being made in the CF, LNER or NET field. As you will know one of the largest Tokomak type reactors in being developed in the UK at considerable cost to the public. I believe in excess of £350m. Experts in the field are suggesting that their estimates of $20bn funding over the next 50 years should be seen as " modest " despite the lack of hard evidence that they will actually be able to deliver at the end of this time. They are proud to announce a " world record " of 65% efficiency. With regards to the calculated world energy demands, incomplete and unequal as any I have seen are, this would pose an extremely insecure technological safety net for our future. I was spoken recently with a pioneer in this field and he stated that in his opinion, of the 50 or so methods of producing nuclear energy, the Tokomak would rate about 48th. But that the technological fields it was being developed within did have interesting military applications. Can anyone elucidate on what those might be without breaching Nation Security? I would also be interested to know why it was decided to pursue what is basically a post war technology. Please appreciate we have purely ethical aims. Sincerely, John Allan My personal access email is: ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 10 19:24:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04399; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:16:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:16:48 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: , , , , , , , , , , , <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <76002.1473@compuserve.com>, , , , , , , , , , Cc: Subject: A&Z, Cathodes, Pd Black & Spillover Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:13:19 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980211031433852.AAA217 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"Du7wj2.0.a41.UWHuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This essay is in response to comments by Kirk Shanahan and Dick Blue about the role of 'spillover' in the DS cathodes used by A&Z in their experiments. All agree that this discussion is peripheral to the central issue of their work, the coupling of massive energy release with the appearance of He isotopes and absence of 3T compounds in the processed Pd black. The mechanisms operating in the DS cathode are interesting in their own right. A&Z assert that the DS cathode -- a palladium capsule machined from a solid rod, with a sealed cavity containing Pd black -- has special properties with respect to loading of D in the Pd black which make it specially suitable for CF experiments. Kirk and Dick have disputed this, citing essentially conventional mechanisms of diffusion and equilibrium between the solid, surface, and gas regions of the cell. I confess no special expertise in these matters, but I have become curious about what may be going on and have pieced together a scenario which is consistent with data from A&Z papers in 1994 and the High Temperature Society publication in 1997 (HTS 1997) As a starting point: Capsule dimensions 5.0 cm long x 2.0 cm dia. for 1994 experiments, indicated range 5-12 cm long, 1-2 cm OD.. Interior Cavity 4-8 mm. ID Fill - 0.1 mole, packed, in vacuum. Packing density unspecified, will be <1. 0.1 mole = 10.6 gm. Pd sp.gr.=12.2; Packed volume 10.6/12.2 ~ 0.9 cc. If cavity is 4 cm long, d ~ 0.5 cm, consistent with diameter range given. Since the packing factor will not be perfect, I will choose a cavity volume of 1.0 cc for convenience. Volume of capsule ~15 cc Cavity is ~6% of total volume Mass of capsule, less cavity ~170 gm These numbers will be useful as we examine the data in the 1994 reports. There are two, one in English published by the Japan Academy, and a second translated from the Japanese by Akira Kawasaki. They cover essentially the same material, with some differences in illustrations. I will refer to these as 1994(E) and 1994(J) Fig C(a) of 1994(J) shows measurements of the internal pressure of an empty DS cathode (no Pd black) in a A&Z cell as a function of time, with different cathode currents. Of interest is the incubation time -- the time from start ot electrolysis to the beginning of a pressure rise in the capsule -- and the rate of rise. The curves a linear, summarized below: Current Incubation, hr. Rate of rise, atm/hr 480 ma ~0.8 2.5 400 ~1.3 1.72 300 ~1.6 1.33 200 ~1.9 1.0 100 ~2.8 0.8 This is the time required for D+ to migrate through the walls of the capsule and form D2 gas within the 1 cc interior space. It is notably shorter than the times cited for loading a solid body of Pd to the 0.85 level often cited as the threshold for initiation of the CF reaction. I can't cite precise numbers here, but my impression is that perhaps days of loading would be required for a solid mass of Pd this size. I make a point of this, for Kirk and Dick have stated that the Pd black will not load to a given level until the capsule is also loaded to the same level, yet D+ reaches the inner surface in ~0.8 hr with 480 ma of electrolysis current. Fig 6(b) of 1994 shows a plot of capsule pressure as a function of time with the capsule empty, and with different fillings. If filled with Ni black powder (20 nm), the incubation period is negligible and the pressure rises initially faster because the effective cavity volume is less. Ni does not sorb the D+. If the cavity is filled with Pd filings, coarse particles, there is a delayed but gradual pressure rise. If filled with 400 nm Pd black, the incubation period is extended to ~18 hr before the rise begins. Fig 7 of HTS 1997 recapitulates this data, with incubation periods for larger Pd black particles. To summarize, D+ enters the empty capsule and forms D2 gas in about 0.8 hrs with 480 ma electrolytic current. When packed with 40 nm Pd black, the pressure rise is delayed for 18 hours, a marked difference. This is not a matter of added mass, for the Pd black volume and mass are ~6% of the total cathode mass. Some other process is at work to delay the pressure rise. This is 'spillover', wherein the D+ preferentially migrates over the surface of the Pd black, and possibly diffusing into the particles, before escaping from the surface as a gas. Fig 6(a) of 1994(E) shows what happens when the electrolysis current is removed. Two sets of data are given, for an empty capsule and one loaded with Pd black. The pressure was allowed to rise to 4 atm after the incubation period in each case, then the current shut off and the rate of pressure decrease noted. The results: Capsule Incubation, hr. Rate of pressure increase/decrease, atm/hr Empty ~0.8 1.6/0.25 Filled ~4.0 1.8/0.083 Thus the empty capsule pressure started to rise in 0.8 hr, and fell at 0.25 atm/hr after power off. The filled capsule pressure did not start to rise for 4 hr, and fell at a rate about 30% of the empty capsule. Note again that the mass of the "filling" is much less than that of the capsule body. Therefore the surface area is of substantial importance. Spillover is not a fiction invented by A&Z for their convenience. A survey paper "Spillover in Heterogeneous Catalysis", by Conner and Falconer, was published in Chemical Review, 1995, 95, 759-788 (thanks to Peter Glueck for bringing it to my attention). There have been three international conferences on the topic, the latest in 1993. "...Movement across the surfaces can take place by forming equivalent bonds with similar neighboring surface atoms...some dramatic examples of spillover over millimeter of centimeter distances have been reported." In an exchange with Scott Little, Jean-Paul Biberien said: "If one takes a vessel filled with deuterium (hydrogen) and palladium metal, at equilibrium, the chemical potential between pressure and loading is attained: the higher the pressure, the higher the concentration in the metal lattice. However, things are not that simple, because the gas phase is molecular, whereas the absorbed element is atomic, even ionic. Also you cannot have direct access to the bulk of the palladium. There is a third player, the surface of the palladium. Hydrogen there is not molecular, but atomic. Therefore there is an equilibrium between the gas phase, the surface with the deuterium atoms adsorbed, and the bulk with deuterium atoms or deuterons absorbed. "All this could be fine in there was reversibility. This is not the case. Actually, for the deuterium to leave the bulk palladium, it must first get to the surface, then find another neighboring deuterium atom to form a molecule, and then go into the gas phase... "However all this being said, Arata is doing another trick. He directly gets atoms, not molecules that diffuse from the cylinder to the surface of the palladium black, without going into the gas phase. Therefore he does not get the high pressure expected. He has a high chemical potential at the surface, this produces high loading in the palladium. Because of what I mentioned before, he does not have the expected high pressure." This was the starting point for my study. I have run my thoughts past Jean-Paul with generally approving responses, but I don't claim his endorsement for what follows. The first interface of interest is between the electrolyte and the capsule exterior. It is negatively charged, ready to give up electrons to replace those shared by D+ in D2O, releasing the D+ to a) form D2 gas which bubbles up to the recombiner or b) becomes bonded to the surface electron clouds of the lattice Pd atoms. There is an energy gradient present, which drives some fraction of the D+ into the lattice. In terms of V/m, the gradient can be quite large, the equivalent of a considerable pressure of D2 gas necessary to produce the same inward diffusion. A D+ can migrate across the surface, with little energy exchange, from atom to atom (perhaps swinging like George of the Jungle on vines, but missing the trees like Tarzan did). A D+ can also diffuse into the lattice, perhaps with the help of a local defect. Once in the lattice, it sees an essentially uniform sea of charge in all directions, with local points of possible equilibria at certain positions in the lattice, but perhaps not tightly bound. Thus diffusion can continue into the vacuum of the capsule cavity without a necessity of achieving a high packing density within the capsule shell before pressure begins to build in the cavity. Reaching the inner surface of the cavity, a D+ is not yet a gas. As Biberien noted, another D+ and extra electrons must be found for molecular gas to be formed. Since the capsule is negative, plenty of electrons are available for this essentially endothermic process. However, with the capsule packed with 40 or 400 nm Pd black, there are Pd particles in contact with nearly all the inner cavity wall area, so the D+ can migrate over the touching surfaces of the Pd black particles and D2 does not form for as long as 18 hours. When the Pd black surface is saturated with D+, D2 can form. In this time, some of the D+ will also diffuse into the particles, from all directions. I noted above that the diffusion should be essentially gas-like inside the lattice. However the lattice is only a few hundred (40 nm particle) to a few thousand (400 nm particle) across, so D+ going this-a-way with soon encounter others going that-a-way and all will settle into packing positions and the LENR --whatever they are -- can ignite. The energy release will of course facilitate the production of D2 and drive the capsule pressure up as observed. This is in addition to the pressure produced by the electrolytic process itself. A&Z are not the only ones to observe pressure within a Pd cathode. Bockris drilled a hole in a solid cathode and observed pressure buildup in the presence of overpotential. Now all of this can be described in terms of equilibria of states and energy levels and I'm fairly sure my simplistic model won't stand too-close inspection so I should do some hand-waving of my own (or didn't you notice?). The A&Z data clearly indicate that the Pd black changes the way the cathode pressure behaves, and it is a function of the material and the particle size, which is consistent with the spillover phenomenon. In the 1996 papers, A&Z state that they had been working with Pd black cathodes before F&P, but shifted to electrolysis. They soon realized that surfaces are important, both in terms of surface conditions and having lots of it, so they developed the DS cathode and were able to report excess energy in 1990. Many have noted the problems with hydrated metals; swelling, cracking etc. One solution is colloidal metal -- Pd black, with particles so fine, only a few hundreds or thousands of atoms across, that loading stresses are unimportant. And there is also the suggestion that LENR requires catalytic conditions -- gradients of some kind, whether of structure, concentration, or excitation -- for the LENR to operate. Colloidal metals have lots of gradients of all kinds. All these factors have apparently contributed to the success the A&Z have had with their experiments. A puzzle in all this is the role of incidental surface contamination of the Pd-black. We get colloidal metals by precipitation out of a solution in a chemical reaction, which gives ample opportunity for surface contamination. Peter Glueck tells me that cleaning by hot argon is done, but there may be other processes involved. Yet, it seems doubtful (lacking further information) that the Pd-black surfaces are pristine, especially with ordinary laboratory handling. A&Z state that there can be a buildup of contaminants as much as ten atoms deep, and Jean-Paul tells me essentially the same. Thus the surfaces may already be crowded when the D+ come migrating, so the picture is much muddled. Yet, the expected extension in the incubation period is there in the data. When it comes to the QMS data, the surface contaminants yield a rich burst of material as they are initially baked off in the first few minutes, before the gases trapped within the Pd-black crystals emerge. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 04:15:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00292; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:14:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:14:13 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Cc: Subject: Re: E=SOL3/98 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:29:23 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980211121321006.AAA244 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"Q5ZrE2.0.P4.KOPuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Allan said, > I was spoken recently with a pioneer in this field and he stated that in > his opinion, of the 50 or so methods of producing nuclear energy, the > Tokomak would rate about 48th. But that the technological fields it was > being developed within did have interesting military applications. Can > anyone elucidate on what those might be without breaching Nation > Security? I would also be interested to know why it was decided to > pursue what is basically a post war technology. The Tokomak involves high energy plasmas and powerful magnetic fields. Both have some potential in the development of energy beam weapons, as with the very powerful lasers in the inertial confinement approaches to fusion energy. In a sense, the promise of fusion energy is but a publicly acceptable mask for the huge expenditures with another motive, which may be equally remote. There is also the immense institutional investment of careers, prestige, influence and all the rest in the plasma fusion programs. It would be a real embarrassment if the ostensible purpose -- domestic energy production -- were better served by electrochemical ("cold fusion") cells than the giant Tokomaks. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 06:08:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16748; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:06:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:06:11 -0800 Message-Id: <199802111401.JAA06134 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Conf: Objectivity and Rationality in Physics Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 09:06:50 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"-6A622.0.b54.I1Ruq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Voretexians: Below is news of a Conference in Phiadelphia at the time of the AIAA meeting. I will probably be there -- great grist for our mill -- and an MIT connection, no less! Also, couldn't hurt to raise havoc with some of the AAAS people. best, Gene Mallove ****** You are cordially inuited to attend... THE SEARCH FOR REALITY: TOWARDS OBJECTIVITY AND RATIONALITY IN PHYSICS a Conference in Honor of the late Prof. Parry Moon of M.I.T., on the 100th Anniversary of his Birth, Saturday, February 14, 1998 Blauvelt Theater, at Friends Select School, downtown Philadelphia 17th Street and Benjamin Franklin Parkway, northeast corner from 8:00 a.m. to 11:20 a.m, and from 12:30 p.m. to 6:15 p.m. Prof. Parry Moon (1898-1988) was for seueral decades one of the most brilliant and prolific critics of 20th-century electrodynamic theory, developing alternative ideas in the authoritative tradition of K F. Gauss and Wilhelm Weber. This centennial conference will continue in his spirit of constructive criticism, giving particular attention to the many flaws in, and proposed replacements for, Einstein's special relativity theory. Speakers, in order of presentation: Prof. Domina Eberle Spencer (Mathematics, Univ. of Connecticut; wife and longtime scientific collaborator of Parry Moon; and Vice-Pres., Natural Philosophy Alliance); Dr. Tom Van Flandern (Meta Research; Physics, Univ. of Maryland); Francisco J. Muller (Miami, Florida; President, Natural Philosophy AUiance); Dr. Delbert J. Larson (Integrated Accelerator Technologies, DeSoto, Texas); Dr. John E. Chappell, Jr. (San Luis Obispo, Calif; Director and Secretary, Natural Philosophy Alliance); S. Richard Hazelett (Colchester, Vermont; Co-Editor, The Einstein Myth and the Ives Papers) ...[Lunch]... Chappell; Dr. Cynthia K Whitney,, (Electro-Optics Technology Center, Tufts Univ.; Editor, Galilean Electrodynamics); Muller; Dr. Uma Y. Shama (Mathematics, Bridgewater State Col., Mass.); Curtis E. Renshaw (Tele-Consultants, Alpharetta, Georgia); Robert S. Fritzius (Shade Tree Physics, Starkuille, Miss.); Spencer; Prof. Mahmoud A. Meleby (Electrical and Systems Engineering, Univ. of Connecticut). Presented by THE NATURAL PHILOSOPHY ALLIANCE, P. O. Box 14014, San Luia Obiapo, CA 93406. Thsa is the world'a largestt organization--with membera in 21 countries--devoted to criticizing unsound concepts in modern physics and to developing realistic alternatives. The NPA and othera have held many aimilar meetinga, moatly in Eumpe, aince the 19808. Theae meeting are necesaitated by decades of refusal to allow such fundamental criticism in eatablishment meetings and journals. Co-sponaored by THE CENTER FOR FRONTIER SCIENCES at Temple Univ., Philadelphia This conference will occur during the 150th anniversary meeting of the American Associ- ation for the Advancement of Sience (Feb. 12-17), and only about five blocks west of it. Parking will be available on the premises of Friends Select School. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 06:21:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19371; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:17:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 06:17:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199802111413.JAA08005 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Kevin Wolf Obit. Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 09:18:29 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"LPbp13.0.Yk4.CCRuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: I obtained this obit from the Brayn-College Station Eagle Newspaper: Kevin Leroy Wolf March 29, 1942 - Sept. 11, 1997 A memorial service for Kevin Leroy Wolf, 55, of College Station is set for 2 p.m. Monday at Southwood Funeral Home. Dr. Robert Leslie of First Presbyterian Church will officiate. Visitation is from 4 to 6 p.m. this Sunday at the funeral home. Mr. Wolf died Thursday afternoon at home. He was born in Logansport, Ind. and lived in College Station for 15 years. He was a chemistry professor at Texas A&M University and conducted research in nuclear physics at the Cyclotron Institute at A&M. Survivors include his wife, Barbara Wolf of College Station, and a daughter, Jennifer Wolf of College Station. Memorials may be made to the children's section of the new College Station Library. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 08:18:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06561; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:12:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:12:47 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:11:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3707$a91d2440$62a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36CC.FCBE4C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JJdPH3.0.Qc1.ytSuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36CC.FCBE4C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.spie.org/web/abstracts/2200/2259.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36CC.FCBE4C40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.spie.org/web/abstracts/2200/2259.html Modified=C02D37790737BD0199 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36CC.FCBE4C40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 08:50:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12173; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:47:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:47:06 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: ISI Thermocouple Reference Information Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:45:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd370c$7b3d6bc0$62a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD36D1.CEDE93C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"PD06B.0.3-2.8OTuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD36D1.CEDE93C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.isi-seal.inter.net/Technical_Info/Tech_Thermocouple.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD36D1.CEDE93C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ISI Thermocouple Reference Information.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ISI Thermocouple Reference Information.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.isi-seal.inter.net/Technical_Info/Tech_Thermocouple.htm Modified=A0FCB15E0C37BD01AC ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BD36D1.CEDE93C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 09:20:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17503; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:17:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:17:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E1DCAF.3756 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:15:27 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! References: <01bd3707$a91d2440$62a6410c default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"P8MBK2.0.NH4.hqTuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred, these guys are doing all the fun stuff!!! I may as well spend my summer picking berries in the field. Sigh!!! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 10:27:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27713; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:14:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:14:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:12:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3718$8d4cb800$c4a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-KuDO.0.qm6.DgUuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 10:55 AM Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! >Fred, these guys are doing all the fun stuff!!! > >I may as well spend my summer picking berries in the field. Sigh!!! Hang Tough,Frank. You can always pick potatoes or apples this fall, after you've made a socially-redeeming breakthrough. If it turns out to be unlimited,cheap-free energy you may be visited by Three Wise-Guys from The East, smoking Camels and smelling of Old Spice. :-) Who knows, Maybe even Jed and Gene will be with them. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Frank S. > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 12:17:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04948; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:11:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:11:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34E205C3.86D dbis.ns.ca> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:10:43 -0400 From: Squirrel Reply-To: squirrel dbis.ns.ca Organization: Squirrel Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0T4F-.0.2D1.dNWuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I am not convinced that an infinite long coil or a toroidal coil have not magnetic field outside. Specially, at closer of windings field strength should be same on inside and outside. Only outer field should weaken quickly by the distance. > > > > could anyone prove mathematically that such a coil have no field outside? > > > > Hamdi, if I am not mistaken, for this to be rigorously true, we must > consider the current to flow in "current sheets" rather than wire > windings. For a toroid, the current would flow only around the small > diameter of the toroid and have zero component around the large way. > > Given this, my physics book then applies Ampere's law in the form: > > Line integral of(B dot dL) = mu_0 * i > > where dL is an element of length of the path of integration, L > > B dot dL is the component of B parallel to L > > i is the total current threading through the surface formed > by the closed path, L > > mu_0 is the permeability of space (assuming an air core toroid) > > If you choose L to be a path around the large diameter of the toroid, > just outside the current sheet, You can see that the total current > through the path L is zero since as much flows "in" the surface of L > as flows "out" of it - adding to zero. The rest is believing in the > symmetry of the problem. This according to my physics book! > > Of course, the same argument holds for a path, L, inside the hole of > the toroid. > > I think this nearly true for "real" toroidal coils wound with small > wire and/or in two layers, wound in opposite directions as explained > in a recent post by Mike Schaffer. > > That's about as mathematical as I can get. Hope I didn't make a > mistake! > > Frank Stenger Excuse my ignorance but it seems you are describing wave-guide theory as it applies to radar etc..... .............Steve........... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 12:30:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15540; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:12:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:12:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211141220.006c0010 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:12:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Mills letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6m-rw1.0.fo3.sOWuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ...sent today via Fedex: Dr. Randall Mills BLACKLIGHT POWER, Inc. Great Valley Corporate Center 41 Great Valley Parkway Malvern PA 19355 Dear Dr. Mills, We are devoted to finding a practical new energy source for the human race. In addition to our own research we frequently make efforts to evaluate the devices and claims of other researchers in this field. Recently we embarked upon an effort to replicate one of your gas-phase hydrino experiments, specifically the observation of excess heat from an experiment involving hydrogen gas, a K catalyst, and a hot filament. Our efforts are chronicled in the attached documents. Included are photos of the apparatus we have constructed. As you will see, we have yet to see any sign of the large excess heat effect you reported. However, we have some obvious problems that could well be preventing the desired reactions. For example, our tungsten filament will not last more than 1 hour when operating in a hydrogen atmosphere. We suspect that atomic hydrogen produced by the hot filament is reducing surface oxides in the chamber making H2O, which starts the "water cycle", which rapidly erodes the filament. We would like to obtain your assistance in making this experiment work. If that can be accomplished, we would be most interested in cooperating with you to further the development of this technology. Our sponsor is capable of contributing significantly (well beyond your present financing) to such development. Scott R. Little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 12:42:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12059; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:38:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:38:37 -0800 From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <34E2EDCB.724 pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:40:43 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tDyTV.0.Ey2.AnWuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Put a scalar coil in the chamber and see if there is any effect on heat at various current levels. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 13:05:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15519; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:55:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:55:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211145635.00bd9794 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:56:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Run 12 aborts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"uTxYY2.0.Ko3.-0Xuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks again for all the good suggestions and discussion. It is very helpful to see other's viewpoints and interpretations. Run 12 was going to happen today but cockpit trouble aborted it. For Run 12 I decided to get rid of the ceramic tube which supports the "gas" thermocouple. As Mike S says, it's not measuring any meaningful temperature anyway. The tube is a possible source of trouble as it is made out of Omegatite 200 (80% Mullite - 20% Glass) see p. A-85 in the Temperature Handbook Vol 29. I smashed the tube to bits to remove it from the thermocouple and then strapped the junction to the cartridge heater with a length of 0.010" dia Chromel wire. I also decided to try the sacrificial tungsten idea and wound about 4" of tightly-coiled heavy tungsten filament from a 1500 watt halogen bulb around the cartridge heater (right on top of the thermocouple junction). I had everything all sealed up, pumped down (I thought), and running smoothly when I applied power to the filament to bake it out in vacuum. It burned out in seconds. The main valve between the vacuum system and the chamber was CLOSED! The chamber was full of air! :( Now I'm setting everything up for the same run tomorrow. If you've got any suggestions, get them posted tonight. I'll check Vortex in the morning and then start Run 12. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 13:09:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23191; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:00:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:00:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211145851.00bd929c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:58:51 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 In-Reply-To: <34E2EDCB.724 pacbell.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980208014235.00878100 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ECdmD3.0.Gg5._5Xuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:40 2/12/98 +0000, you wrote: >Put a scalar coil in the chamber and see if there is any effect on heat >at various current levels. Please elaborate: What is a scalar coil? Does it need to be driven? Or is it passive? Why should it affect things? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 13:46:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26574; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:39:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:39:34 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: MCEL Publications (Los Alamos Labs) Transmutation Stuff Too Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:39:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3735$80877fc0$d8a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36FA.D428A7C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4qQVQ1.0.6V6.LgXuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36FA.D428A7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://macrsl.mst.lanl.gov/PDF-Publications/Aqueous-index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36FA.D428A7C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="MCEL Publications.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="MCEL Publications.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://macrsl.mst.lanl.gov/PDF-Publications/Aqueous-index.html Modified=E0E23C433537BD016B ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD36FA.D428A7C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 14:11:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01455; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:07:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:07:14 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:02:36 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: E=SOL3/98 Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802111706_MC2-32ED-68ED compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"eYzus3.0.eM.G4Yuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:energy_solutions hotmail.com I am still wondering what this mysterious moniker "E=SOL3/98" means. Anyway, I gather the question pertains to Tokamak reactor research. I recommend an excellent paper about this subject by a team of top experts from Los Alamos: R. A. Krakowski et al., "Lessons Learned from the Tokamak Advanced Reactor Innovation and Evaluation Study (ARIES)," Fusion Technology, Vol. 26, November 1994 There is also a 64 page book with the same title but a longer abstract and more detail. It was published by Los Alamos National Laboratory, LU-UR-93-4217, December 8, 1993. The project was supported by the US DOE, Office of Fusion Energy. Read all about it! John Allan wrote: I [spoke] recently with a pioneer in this field and he stated that in his opinion, of the 50 or so methods of producing nuclear energy, the Tokamak would rate about 48th. Ha! Who was that? Robert Hirsch? Do tell! But that the technological fields it was being developed within did have interesting military applications. Can anyone elucidate on what those might be without breaching Nation Security? This is common knowledge. I do not know any national security, but everyone knows that inertial confinement program is mostly about developing thermonuclear bombs. Why they want to develop more o' them things I can't imagine. Here we are spending millions trashing most of our stock of bombs, and helping the Russians get rid of theirs. We are not producing any new ones and as far as I know we do not plan to. But for some reason the DoE and the Pentagon want to spend billions of dollars designing new ones! I don't get it. But I never did understand Washington's spending priories. I hate to be cynical, but I have a sneaking suspicion this might be a pork barrel project for those fine, upstanding, patriotic military industrial contractors. The hot fusion program has nothing to do with energy. It has no support from the energy industry. Price is not the issue. The Tokamak program is not expensive by industry standards. The electric power industry spends far more on R&D, maintenance, environmental clean up, fuel, etc. If there was a realistic chance the Tokamak would work, EPRI would be happy to pay for it. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 14:16:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03505; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:13:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:13:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34E22235.7AED06FB microtronics.com.au> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:42:05 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg , List Server Newman , List Server Vortex Subject: Suggested Research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GRfKs2.0.Es.3AYuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I am currently restrained from ANY comments on ANYTHING even close to my research. However I can still point you in a direction of something that is parallel and very interesting. Hyde claims in the body of the patent that his device produces 10 times more output than input. This is the strongest OU statement I have encountered in a US patent. My crude but developing, understanding of ZP fields suggests that his device might work. Jean-Louis has done work with electrostatics and should be able to build a test device. Please note that the claimed OU effect ONLY occurs at high rpm with very short duration electrostatic pulses which push past the NORMAL reaction time of the device. This is where a tie to my PMOD research comes in. Pushing systems past their reaction envelope (where, for a short time, cause & effect breaks down) may be what opens the door to a balancing energy input from the ZP field. Here are the links : 1) US patent 4,897,592 Http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4897592 2) Tapping Zero-Point Energy (Last half contains an analysis of the Hyde device) Http://www.livelinks.com/sumeria/free/zpe3.html Best Regards, Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 15:23:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15954; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:13:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:13:37 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34E22FC3.8C2FDAAD ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:09:55 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: [Fwd: BATT TEST RUN --OK] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9dXS92.0.8v3.Q2Zuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Those interested and Frank Z.- An associate has been watching the BATT stock since Frank Z's alert. This news was forwarded to me today: > BAAT RAN IT'S TEST RUN YESTERDAY---3 TRIAL RUNS--THEY > GOT 91.5---94.5--AND 95 MILES PER GALLON. HOWEVER, THEIR > STOCK OPENED TODAY AT $1.46 AND CLOSED AT $1.01. REALLY > HARD TO FIGURE THIS ONE OUT BUT WILL CONTINUE TO WATCH. Just an FYI. Rather interesting market reaction to such great test results. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 15:23:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16542; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:18:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:18:18 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: BLP RUN 12? How Bulbs and Halogen Lamps Work Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:15:14 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3742$e927a2a0$85a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BD3708.3CC8CAA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-dr7Q1.0.E24.m6Zuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BD3708.3CC8CAA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And why does Scott use a Filament from one of these with Hydrogen around? :-) http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~lightfx/Halogbulbs.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BD3708.3CC8CAA0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="How Bulbs and Halogen Lamps Work.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="How Bulbs and Halogen Lamps Work.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~lightfx/Halogbulbs.htm Modified=C02805934237BD01B7 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BD3708.3CC8CAA0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 15:37:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26026; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:32:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:32:30 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34E23506.34BE math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:32:22 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills letter References: <3.0.1.32.19980211141220.006c0010 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MZUBa.0.ZM6.DKZuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > [To Mills of BLP] > Our sponsor is capable > of contributing significantly (well beyond your present financing) > to such development. That does raise one option: if you really think they are on to something, your sponsor could buy a minority share in their company. A few mill $$ would make someone a pretty major partner there. Or, perhaps fork them a few $100k to act as consultants, to get your experiment working.... Money talks. (Of course, a fool and his money are soon parted, so a fool's money can only speak for a short time :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 15:44:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29583; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:42:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:36:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! In-Reply-To: <01bd3718$8d4cb800$c4a6410c default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"AxLot2.0.9E7.QTZuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y From what tree do you pick potatoes? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 15:56:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01382; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:53:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:53:20 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:53:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3748$346a5a00$c4a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"eYYHZ3.0.TL.kdZuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, February 11, 1998 4:42 PM Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! >y > > From what tree do you pick potatoes? Same one that you pick your nose from? :-) FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 16:05:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22550; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:55:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:55:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:50:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802112350.RAA02034 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: BLP experiment replication effort To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"xMKNr1.0.BW5.SfZuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 11, 1998 Scott, Haven't followed your BLP effort too much so I visited the EarthTech website for a light review. It started to bother me that you were having so much filament problems. Your effort reminded me of electronic vacuum tube technology where tungsten filaments were long used. I had a hunch that what you needed was to use a "Getter" after you high heated the tungsten in a high vacuum ---- same process used to make vacuum tubes. Only after then is hydrogen is introduced for your BLP experiment. Reference: Fundementals of Vacuum Tubes, Austen V. Eastman, MS, 1949, McGraw Hill, Pages 33-35 (Evacuation of Vacuum Tubes, and Getter), page 115 (Tungar Tubes). Radio Physics Course, Alfred A. Girhardi, E.E., 1933, Radio & Technical Pub. Co., page 483-487 (section 325 (vacuum tube construction), 326 (Manufacture of vacuum tubes), 327(Effect of gas in a vacuum tube). -AK- ps: If the books are not available in your library, let me know if you need details. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 16:28:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01383; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:25:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:25:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211182103.00ad7354 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:21:03 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Mills letter In-Reply-To: <34E23506.34BE math.ucla.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.19980211141220.006c0010 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TjoX91.0.SL.36auq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 15:32 2/11/98 -0800, Barry Merriman wrote: >That does raise one option: if you really think they are on to >something, your sponsor could buy a minority share in their >company. Here's what we have offered others and would be glad to offer BLP: Before hashing out any agreements (except a ND agreement if They insist), we test the device/claim here at EarthTech for free. If the device works, we sit down and attempt to negotiate a deal. NOTE that They hold all the cards at this table. We are convinced it works because we tested it ourselves. They don't have to sell their technology at all. We are already drooling. If the device doesn't work, we call it quits. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 17:45:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10474; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:42:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:42:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:35:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 11 In-Reply-To: <34E2EDCB.724 pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mqmc33.0.YZ2.hDbuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Do tell us what a 'scalar coil' is, please. And tell us how it works and why the 'scalar coil' is scalar. What is being sensed and how? J On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 ehammond pacbell.net wrote: > Put a scalar coil in the chamber and see if there is any effect on heat > at various current levels. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 20:40:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13733; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:38:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:38:45 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 12, Gettering Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:38:45 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3770$1aa61a00$dba6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"jcXVN2.0.TM3.Jpduq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With Tungsten: 2 H2O + W <---> 2 H2 + WO2,not much to be gained there. With a couple of 1/4" strips of Reynolds Wrap placed in the chamber: 3 H2O + 2 Al (250 deg C) ----> Al2O3 + 3 H2 or 2 Al + 1.5 O2 ----> Al2O3 The ONLY WAY that the Oxygen can be gotten off the Al2O3 at less than white heat is with the Hall electrolytic process. That is why even scrap aluminum is expensive. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 11 23:37:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04747; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:34:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:34:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E2A664.3FF8 gorge.net> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:36:04 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP runs--"Off the Wall"" idea References: <199802112211.OAA02832 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"I2O_I3.0.3A1.MOguq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Consider: 1. All filaments (so far) have burned out. 2. Not in fairly hard vacuum. 3. Always in hydrogen atmosphere catalyst or no. 4. Oxygen is *presumably* involved. 5. Atomic hydrogen plus atomic oxygen (AKA "Brown's gas") combustion is claimed to "vaporize" or "sublimate" Tungsten. What if--the brown's gas reaction is taking place on, or next to the tungsten filament. Atomic H is derived from H2 by the hot tungsten. O presumably comes from the wall, but will probably also come from breakdown of nitrate, or nitrite in the catalyst. What if--BLP was able to make the brown's gas reaction take place ON THE WALLs of the reaction chamber. The vastly greater surface area and mass of the walls, (relative to the filament) would show as temperature increase, not meltdown--provided the total number of reactions was kept within reason. If memory serves, cold platinum catalyzes H+H+O=H2O. What if--the walls were sputtered with platinum. This *might* make the BG reaction happen on the wall, instead of the filament. What if--Molybdenum actually does catalyze H2O=H2+O. Then Molybdenum sputtered on the walls (in addition to the platinum) could catalyze a "re-cycling" of the H and O, back to the filament. I hope someone can demonstrate that this idea is wrong. I have been counting on Hydrino formation in attempting to make sense of the universe. Then again, what if the claimed brown's gas phenomenon is caused by the formation of hydrinos??? Hope this helps. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 00:13:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07461; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:05:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:05:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E2AB89.D3A skylink.net> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:58:01 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qa5Qc.0.Vq1.lqguq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It seems we've concluded that a properly wound toroid can be used to generate a curl-free A field. Can we make one that might give a demonstrably large time delay to a passing electron? Here's a possible construction for an experiment. Visualize the magnetic toroidal core stretched out axially into a long length, to where it looks like a cylindrical sheet of magnetic material. Wind a one turn coil of copper sheet around the core. It now looks like a cylindrical sheet of magnetic material with a coating of copper on the inside, which is connected on one end all around to a coating of copper on the outside. Now we have just what we need -- no leakage inductance, and no component of current in the circular direction around the core. To get a relatively large A field. Make the whole thing with a copper pipe, placed inside a larger copper pipe, with both pipes brazed together on one end with a flat copper ring. Fill the material between the pipes with magnetic material -- maybe use a stack of toroidal steel cores between the copper pipes. For purposes of example, it might be built with the following size materials. Two copper pipes 10 meters long. The diameter of the inside pipe (area inside the tube) does not directly enter the calculation for the value of A. Use an outer copper pipe with a radius of 0.1 meter larger than the inside pipe. If the area between the pipes is completely filled with magnetic material this distance will also be the length (thickness) of the magnetic core. The total cross sectional area of magnetic core material required to fill a 10 meter length is 1 square meter. Use a magnetic material that saturates at about 10 thousand gauss (1 weber/sqaure-meter). Charge the one-turn loop made by the two copper pipes with enough current to saturate the core material. When the magnetic core is energized to saturation (10 thousand gauss) a curl-free A field with a value of about 0.1 weber/meter will be established inside the pipe. The A-field will have a constant value at all points inside the pipe. An electric charge in an A field has an EM momentum equal to (q)(A). In a field of 0.1 weber per meter, the momentum of the charge of an electron is 1.6E-20 (Kg)(m/sec). Because the mechanical mass of the electron is very small, this corresponds to a (non-relativistic) change in electron mechanical velocity of about 1.8E10 m/sec. If the A field does in fact cause a time delay in propagation of an electron through the tube, by controlling the A field with the amount of current in the coil to match the energy of the incoming electron, some very large delay times might be developed. Mabye seconds, minutes, hours, days? Note: You can get the same value of A field with this construction by using the same size magnetic core and any shorter length of copper pipe. End effects may become more pronounced, but at least you might be able to completly close the garage door. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 00:50:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11364; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:47:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:47:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 02:44:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802120844.CAA19360 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"2XGrk3.0.Qn2.HShuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 12, 1998 Scott & vortex, In vacuum tube technology, several "getter" materials are used to absorb (react with) occluded material given off by heated materials as the devices are used. They are: Magnesium, calcium, strontium, barium, phosphorous, carbon, mercury, Mischmetal, aluminum, barium, and zirconium. Zirconium wire (MP 1852 C )is heated along with the heater at 1300 to 1800 K. It is used in x-ray tubes where 'hard' vacuum is desired to be maintained. It absorbs everything except inert gases. In your cell, you might want to 'blow' the zirconium connection just prior to introducing hydrogen. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 05:13:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01730; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:11:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:11:25 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: BEWARE of SQUIRRELS! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:10:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd37b7$8d49aa80$dba6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7hrtW1.0.yQ.xJluq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Full Moon Last Night. Ain't nobody can tell me that there isn't a positive correlation with NUTTY Behavior. Just check the posts on the Internet. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 06:01:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05509; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:53:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 05:53:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: MELATONIN BEWARE of SQUIRRELS! Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:52:23 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd37bd$71f6fac0$dba6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3782.C59822C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"L9D6f2.0.zL1.mxluq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3782.C59822C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MELATONIN MADNESS! Melatonin. . .the focus of a media blitz from Good Morning America to = Newsweek magazine to articles in our daily newspapers, and even 90 = Minutes. Books and articles on the subject explode onto the scene almost = weekly. Just what's all the hype about?=20 Cellular biologist Dr. Russell J. Reiter of the University of Texas = Health Science Center in San Antonio, Texas, can tell you. He has been = researching melatonin for thirty years. His studies have led him to the = conclusion that melatonin stands as the most powerful antioxidant = molecule to be discovered yet a hormone that can preset the body's aging = clock, turning back the ravages of time."(1) Scientitsts may be on the = verge of discovering the real "Fountain of Youth" that Ponce de Leon = only dreamed about.=20 The way it's being talked about, melatonin sounds like the "medical = miracle" of the century. Judging by research findings on this hormone of = the pineal gland, it just may be. Benefits range from its use as a = gentle, effective sleeping aid to future birth control pills with no = adverse side effects.(1) That is more than can be said about any = medication.=20 THE PINEAL GLAND AND MELATONIN Scientists once thought of the pineal gland as the "appendix of the = brain," having little use in the neuroendocrine system. Then in the = 1960s and 1970s, scientists such as Dr. Reiter began to unravel its = mystery as the "biological clock" of the body.(2)=20 The Hindus referred to the pineal gland as the body's "third eye." = Interestingly, it is a light-sensitive vestigial remnant of what = actually was a third eye in lower animals.(3,4) Situated deep within the = brain and connected by a direct pathway to the eyes, the pea-sized = pineal gland controls our sleep/wake cycle, which scientists refer to as = circadian rhythm.(4) It secretes almost undetectable amounts of the = hormone melatonin in response to periods of light and darkness. The = pineal gland produces melatonin only during darkness, while production = is suppressed by bright light.(2,3,5) Melatonin establishes the = biological rhythm of every cell in the body. The presence of adequate = amounts of melatonin induces sleep and may reduce anxiety, panic = disorders and migraines.(5) Aruption of routine such as shift work, = travel across more than three time zones (get lag?, or even an erratic = daily schedule can reduce meltonin levels and desynchronize the body's = internal biological clock.=20 Melatonin production rises sharply from almost nothing at birth and = peaks in late childhood, falling dramatically just before puberty and = declining more gradually into old age.(6) This accounts for the = increased incidence of insomnia among the elderly.=20 Today, melatonin ranks as one of the most important hormones, possibly = even the "master hormone" stimulating the release of a wide variety of = other hormones from the pituitary gland.(2,4)=20 FREE-RADICAL FIGHTER Researchers have discovered melatonin to have the most powerful = antioxidant properties of any free-radical fighter. Cellular oxidative = damage by free radicals has been linked to formation of cataracts as = well as other degenerative conditions.(4,7,8) Melatonin scavenges and = neutralizes the most damaging free redical, the hydroxyl radical, five = times better than gluathione, and is twice as effective in deactivating = the peroxyl radical as vitamin E. It also stimulates glutathione = peroxidase activity and inhibits nitric oxide synthase, thereby reducing = the production of the highly toxic hydroxyl and nitric oxide free = radicals.(7) These findings point to the anti-aging role of melatonin = and its relationship to prevention of age-related diseases such as = Alzheimer's, cancer, and heart disease.=20 IMMUNE ENHANCER Melatonin also boosts immune function through both its antioxidant = action and its relationship with the thymus gland.(4) When melatonin was = added to the night-time drinking water of older mice, it not only = significantly extended their life span, but also kept them disease-free = by improving their immune response. Melatonin increased thymus size and = cellular activity, strengthening the immune system.(4) Other studies = have demonstrated melatonin's immune-enhancing ability in strengthening = antibody response, knocking out viruses, moderating the effects of = corticosteroid overproduction in response to stress, and rejuvenating = thyroid function which influences T-cell production. Transplanting = pineal glands from young to older mice also restored youthful zinc = levels which are essential for immune function.(4)=20 MELATONIN/CANCER CONNECTION Recent research has shown that melatonin may have a powerful effect on = protection against and treatment of cancer, including breast, cervical = and prostate cancers.(11,12) Low melatonin levels seem to parallel = cancer growth.(2,4,13) Melatonin is a potent oncostatic agent, = preventing both the initiation and promotion of cancer.(14) Exposure to = electromagnetic fields has been shown to increase the risk of breast = cancer, not directly but as a result of suppressing the nocturnal rise = in melatonin levels.(4) Melatonin (10 mg./night) has also been proven to = amplify the immune effects of interleukin 2 (IL-2) treatment for cancer = and to significantly reduce its toxicity and side effects.(4, 15)=20 NATURE'S SLEEPING PILL Low melatonin levels have been correlated with sleep disturbances and = insomnia, particularly in the elderly.(2,4,9) Since the FDA banned = L-tryptophan supplements several years ago, many insomniacs have = resorted to either over- the-counter or prescription drugs as sleeping = aids. However, these drugs interfere with the REM phase of sleep, often = leaving the person unrested even after hours of sleep. They may help you = fall asleep, but they prevent you from having the right kind of = sleep.(2) Other drugs (such as alpha- and beta-blockers, NSAIDs, = sedatives, some tranquilizers, and anti-psychotic drugs) can actually = reduce melatonin levels as well.(2,3) The patient may then find that he = has entered a vicious cycle where he requires more medication to promote = sleep. Endogenous melatonin, on the other hand, is naturally derived = from tryptophan and serotonin.(10) This most likely is the reason that = melatonin supplements assist in achieving good quality sleep patterns, = without the "drugged" feeling of sleeping medications. Jet lag, a = sleep/wake disturbance caused by travel across more than three time = zones, responds successfully to melatonin supplementation. The traveler = should take the supplement before bedtime at the new location and also = avoid bright light, as well as caffeine and alcohol intake, at that = time.(2,4)=20 MELATONIN AND SAD Patients with Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) have an abnormal = seasonal variation and suppression of melatonin by light.(15) During = winter, the decreased duration of daylight somehow alters the circannual = rhythm of SAD patients. Light therapy and melatonin supplementation have = proved beneficial in many cases.(4)=20 ANTI-AGING MIRACLE After cross-transplantation (switching) the pineal glands of young and = older mice, Lesnikov and Pierpaoli demonstrated that the pineal gland is = indeed the body's "aging clock." Within five months, it extended the = life span and enlarged the thymus glands of the older mice given the = young pineal glands, while significantly aging the younger mice with the = older pineal glands. In a series of repeated experiments, one group of = old mice was given melatonin in their night-time water while the other = group did not receive extra melatonin. Evidence of melatonin=92s effect = on the treated mice showed up as thick, shiny coats of hair, = cataract-free eyes, improved digestion, and increased strength, energy = and muscle tone with behavior of mice half their age.(4) Most of the = untreated mice developed all the expected signs and symptoms of old age = and died of cancer significantly earlier than the treated mice, none of = which suffered from cancer. In addition, the treated mice displayed = sexual interest and capacity until their death, which was the human = equivalent of adding 25 extrayears to their life span!(4)=20 RECOMMENDATIONS A diet rich in fresh fruits, vegetables and tryptophan-containing foods, = as well as supplemental antioxidants will help support the immune = system. Eating regular meals and following a regular schedule will = strengthen melatonin ryhthms.(2) Recommendations for melatonin = supplementation vary from 1 mg. (age 40) to 5 mg. (over age 75) at = bedtime, or the amount necessary for a good night's rest.(4)=20 REFERENCES 1. Cowley, Geoffrey. "Melatonin." Newsweek, August 7, 1995, 46-49. 2. Bock, Steven J., M.D. and Boyette, Michael. Stay Young the Melatonin = Way. New York: Dutton (Penguin=20 Group), 1995. 3. Guyton, Arthur C., M.D., and Hall, John E., Ph.D. Textbook of Medical = Physiology, 9th ed. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Co., 1995, 1015-1016. 4. Pierpaoli, Walter, M.D., Ph.D., and Regelson, William, M. D. New = York: Simon & Schuster, 1995. 5. Burton Goldberg Group. Alternative Medicine: The Defnitive Guide. = Puyallup, WA: Future Medicine Publishing, Inc., 1993. 6. Graph by Russell Reiter, Ph.D. in "Melatonin." Newsweek, August 7, = 1995, 48. 7. Reiter, Russel J., Ph.D., et. al. A review of the evidence supporting = melatonin's role as a nantioxidant. Jour. of Pineal Research 18:1-11, = 1995. 8. Reiter, Russel J., Ph.D. The pineal gland and melatonin in relation = to aging: A summary of the theories and of the data. Experimental = Gerontology 30 (3,4): 199-212, 1995. 9. Haimov, I., et.al. Sleep disorders and melatonin rhythms in elderly = people. British Medical Journal 309:167, 1994. 10. Jan, J.E., et. al. The treatment of sleep disorders with melatonin. = Developmental Medicine and Child Neurology 36:91-107, 1994. 11. Massion, A.O., et. al. Med. Hypotheses 44(1):39-46, 1995. 12. Chen, L.D., et.al. Cancer Letter 91(2): 153-59, 1995.=20 13. Praast,G., et. al. Experientia 51(4):349-55, April 15, 1995. 14. Reiter, J.J. Rev. Environ. Health 10(3,4):171-86, Jul-Dec., 1994. 15. Brakowski, R., et. al. Jour. Biol. Regul. Homeost. Agents = 8(3):77-80, July-Sep, 1994.=20 Return to Index=20 Return to Home Page=20 =A9:A.C.C.M., All Rights Reserved.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3782.C59822C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MELATONIN
 

MELATONIN MADNESS!

Melatonin. . .the focus of a media blitz from Good Morning America to = Newsweek magazine to articles in our daily newspapers, and even 90 = Minutes.=20 Books and articles on the subject explode onto the scene almost weekly. = Just=20 what's all the hype about?=20

Cellular biologist Dr. Russell J. Reiter of the University of Texas = Health=20 Science Center in San Antonio, Texas, can tell you. He has been = researching=20 melatonin for thirty years. His studies have led him to the conclusion = that=20 melatonin stands as the most powerful antioxidant molecule to be = discovered yet=20 a hormone that can preset the body's aging clock, turning back the = ravages of=20 time."(1) Scientitsts may be on the verge of discovering the real=20 "Fountain of Youth" that Ponce de Leon only dreamed about.=20

The way it's being talked about, melatonin sounds like the = "medical=20 miracle" of the century. Judging by research findings on this = hormone of=20 the pineal gland, it just may be. Benefits range from its use as a = gentle,=20 effective sleeping aid to future birth control pills with no adverse = side=20 effects.(1) That is more than can be said about any medication.=20

THE PINEAL GLAND AND MELATONIN

Scientists once thought of the pineal gland as the "appendix of = the=20 brain," having little use in the neuroendocrine system. Then in the = 1960s=20 and 1970s, scientists such as Dr. Reiter began to unravel its mystery as = the=20 "biological clock" of the body.(2)=20

The Hindus referred to the pineal gland as the body's = "third=20 eye." Interestingly, it is a light-sensitive vestigial = remnant of=20 what actually was a third eye in lower animals.(3,4) Situated deep = within the=20 brain and connected by a direct pathway to the eyes, the pea-sized = pineal gland=20 controls our sleep/wake cycle, which scientists refer to as circadian = rhythm.(4)=20 It secretes almost undetectable amounts of the hormone melatonin in = response to=20 periods of light and darkness. The pineal gland produces melatonin only = during=20 darkness, while production is suppressed by bright light.(2,3,5) = Melatonin=20 establishes the biological rhythm of every cell in the body. The = presence of=20 adequate amounts of melatonin induces sleep and may reduce anxiety, = panic=20 disorders and migraines.(5) Aruption of routine such as shift work, = travel=20 across more than three time zones (get lag?, or even an erratic daily = schedule=20 can reduce meltonin levels and desynchronize the body's internal = biological=20 clock.=20

Melatonin production rises sharply from almost nothing at birth and = peaks in=20 late childhood, falling dramatically just before puberty and declining = more=20 gradually into old age.(6) This accounts for the increased incidence of = insomnia=20 among the elderly.=20

Today, melatonin ranks as one of the most important hormones, = possibly even=20 the "master hormone" stimulating the release of a wide variety = of=20 other hormones from the pituitary gland.(2,4)=20

FREE-RADICAL FIGHTER

Researchers have discovered melatonin to have the most powerful = antioxidant=20 properties of any free-radical fighter. Cellular oxidative damage by = free=20 radicals has been linked to formation of cataracts as well as other = degenerative=20 conditions.(4,7,8) Melatonin scavenges and neutralizes the most damaging = free=20 redical, the hydroxyl radical, five times better than gluathione, and is = twice=20 as effective in deactivating the peroxyl radical as vitamin E. It also=20 stimulates glutathione peroxidase activity and inhibits nitric oxide = synthase,=20 thereby reducing the production of the highly toxic hydroxyl and nitric = oxide=20 free radicals.(7) These findings point to the anti-aging role of = melatonin and=20 its relationship to prevention of age-related diseases such as = Alzheimer's,=20 cancer, and heart disease.=20

IMMUNE ENHANCER

Melatonin also boosts immune function through both its antioxidant = action and=20 its relationship with the thymus gland.(4) When melatonin was added to = the=20 night-time drinking water of older mice, it not only significantly = extended=20 their life span, but also kept them disease-free by improving their = immune=20 response. Melatonin increased thymus size and cellular activity, = strengthening=20 the immune system.(4) Other studies have demonstrated melatonin's=20 immune-enhancing ability in strengthening antibody response, knocking = out=20 viruses, moderating the effects of corticosteroid overproduction in = response to=20 stress, and rejuvenating thyroid function which influences T-cell = production.=20 Transplanting pineal glands from young to older mice also restored = youthful zinc=20 levels which are essential for immune function.(4)=20

MELATONIN/CANCER CONNECTION

Recent research has shown that melatonin may have a powerful effect = on=20 protection against and treatment of cancer, including breast, cervical = and=20 prostate cancers.(11,12) Low melatonin levels seem to parallel cancer=20 growth.(2,4,13) Melatonin is a potent oncostatic agent, preventing both = the=20 initiation and promotion of cancer.(14) Exposure to electromagnetic = fields has=20 been shown to increase the risk of breast cancer, not directly but as a = result=20 of suppressing the nocturnal rise in melatonin levels.(4) Melatonin (10=20 mg./night) has also been proven to amplify the immune effects of = interleukin 2=20 (IL-2) treatment for cancer and to significantly reduce its toxicity and = side=20 effects.(4, 15)=20

NATURE'S SLEEPING PILL

Low melatonin levels have been correlated with sleep disturbances and = insomnia, particularly in the elderly.(2,4,9) Since the FDA banned = L-tryptophan=20 supplements several years ago, many insomniacs have resorted to either = over-=20 the-counter or prescription drugs as sleeping aids. However, these drugs = interfere with the REM phase of sleep, often leaving the person unrested = even=20 after hours of sleep. They may help you fall asleep, but they prevent = you from=20 having the right kind of sleep.(2) Other drugs (such as alpha- and=20 beta-blockers, NSAIDs, sedatives, some tranquilizers, and anti-psychotic = drugs)=20 can actually reduce melatonin levels as well.(2,3) The patient may then = find=20 that he has entered a vicious cycle where he requires more medication to = promote=20 sleep. Endogenous melatonin, on the other hand, is naturally derived = from=20 tryptophan and serotonin.(10) This most likely is the reason that = melatonin=20 supplements assist in achieving good quality sleep patterns, without the = "drugged" feeling of sleeping medications. Jet lag, a = sleep/wake=20 disturbance caused by travel across more than three time zones, responds = successfully to melatonin supplementation. The traveler should take the=20 supplement before bedtime at the new location and also avoid bright = light, as=20 well as caffeine and alcohol intake, at that time.(2,4)=20

MELATONIN AND SAD

Patients with Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) have an abnormal = seasonal=20 variation and suppression of melatonin by light.(15) During winter, the=20 decreased duration of daylight somehow alters the circannual rhythm of = SAD=20 patients. Light therapy and melatonin supplementation have proved = beneficial in=20 many cases.(4)=20

ANTI-AGING MIRACLE

After cross-transplantation (switching) the pineal glands of young = and older=20 mice, Lesnikov and Pierpaoli demonstrated that the pineal gland is = indeed the=20 body's "aging clock." Within five months, it extended the life = span=20 and enlarged the thymus glands of the older mice given the young pineal = glands,=20 while significantly aging the younger mice with the older pineal glands. = In a=20 series of repeated experiments, one group of old mice was given = melatonin in=20 their night-time water while the other group did not receive extra = melatonin.=20 Evidence of melatonin’s effect on the treated mice showed up as = thick,=20 shiny coats of hair, cataract-free eyes, improved digestion, and = increased=20 strength, energy and muscle tone with behavior of mice half their = age.(4) Most=20 of the untreated mice developed all the expected signs and symptoms of = old age=20 and died of cancer significantly earlier than the treated mice, none of = which=20 suffered from cancer. In addition, the treated mice displayed sexual = interest=20 and capacity until their death, which was the human equivalent of adding = 25=20 extrayears to their life span!(4)=20

RECOMMENDATIONS

A diet rich in fresh fruits, vegetables and tryptophan-containing = foods, as=20 well as supplemental antioxidants will help support the immune system. = Eating=20 regular meals and following a regular schedule will strengthen melatonin = ryhthms.(2) Recommendations for melatonin supplementation vary from 1 = mg. (age=20 40) to 5 mg. (over age 75) at bedtime, or the amount necessary for a = good=20 night's rest.(4)=20

REFERENCES

1. Cowley, Geoffrey. "Melatonin." Newsweek, August 7, 1995, = 46-49.
2. Bock, Steven J., M.D. and Boyette, Michael. Stay Young the=20 Melatonin Way. New York: Dutton (Penguin
Group), 1995.
3. Guyton, = Arthur=20 C., M.D., and Hall, John E., Ph.D. Textbook of Medical Physiology, 9th = ed.=20 Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Co., 1995, 1015-1016.
4. Pierpaoli, = Walter, M.D.,=20 Ph.D., and Regelson, William, M. D. New York: Simon & Schuster, = 1995.
5.=20 Burton Goldberg Group. Alternative Medicine: The Defnitive Guide. = Puyallup, WA:=20 Future Medicine Publishing, Inc., 1993.
6. Graph by Russell Reiter, = Ph.D. in=20 "Melatonin." Newsweek, August 7, 1995, 48.
7. Reiter, = Russel J.,=20 Ph.D., et. al. A review of the evidence supporting melatonin's role as a = nantioxidant. Jour. of Pineal Research 18:1-11, 1995.
8. Reiter, = Russel J.,=20 Ph.D. The pineal gland and melatonin in relation to aging: A summary of = the=20 theories and of the data. Experimental Gerontology 30 (3,4): 199-212,=20 1995.
9. Haimov, I., et.al. Sleep disorders and melatonin rhythms in = elderly=20 people. British Medical Journal 309:167, 1994.
10. Jan, J.E., et. al. = The=20 treatment of sleep disorders with melatonin. Developmental Medicine and = Child=20 Neurology 36:91-107, 1994.
11. Massion, A.O., et. al. Med. Hypotheses = 44(1):39-46, 1995.
12. Chen, L.D., et.al. Cancer Letter 91(2): = 153-59, 1995.=20
13. Praast,G., et. al. Experientia 51(4):349-55, April 15, = 1995.
14.=20 Reiter, J.J. Rev. Environ. Health 10(3,4):171-86, Jul-Dec., 1994.
15. = Brakowski, R., et. al. Jour. Biol. Regul. Homeost. Agents 8(3):77-80, = July-Sep,=20 1994.=20

Return to Index=20

Return to Home Page=20

©:A.C.C.M., All Rights Reserved.=20

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3782.C59822C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 06:32:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10152; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:27:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:27:26 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: BEWARE of SQUIRRELS! The LUNAR-PINEAL CONNECTION Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:25:29 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd37c2$1222de20$dba6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"v2h_B3.0.YU2.CRmuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Every 28-29 days the night-time reflection of of Solar Energy by the moon peaks. The 300 K blackbody reflector contains a spectrum rich in Infrared to Millimeter wavelength electromagnetic energy that can penetrate most structures (less through water vapor-clouds in the atmosphere)and indications are that this radiation can and does affect the Pineal Body and alters it's release of melatonin and the control-balance of the endocrine system. All perfectly natural, but much to learn yet. FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 08:11:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA30261; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:01:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:01:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980212100256.00ad94b0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:02:56 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Run 12 underway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"TifAN3.0.cO7.npnuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Run 12 is on the road! (driver more alert this time, hopefully). Thanks to Fred's suggestion, I put in a strip of Al foil wrapped around the cartridge heater and the 6-32 stud. The heavy W filament is also wrapped around the heater: Double-Whammy getter. With the thermocouple strapped to the heater as well, we see ~550C surface temp at 30 watts in vacuum. That should activate the Al! Run 12 plan: Bake out with the heater mostly, adding filament power briefly near the end of the bakeout to degas the filament. Turn off the filament, leave the heater on and admit the hydrogen at 15 torr. Leave that for a while, watch pressure, evac and refill to 15 torr. Leave that for a while, evac and refill to 2 torr. Apply power to the filament. Remember, my hydrogen gas is really clean. I'm thinking the flush cycle may remove some remnants in the chamber. The real command performance for the getters will occur when the filament lights up. If they can get the H2O and O2 faster than the filament does, we should see a longer life for this run. BTW, this is the maiden voyage of a new DC amplifier that should clean up the Pressure signal nicely. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 08:23:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27874; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:18:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:18:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:10:28 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: Vortex-L Subject: Re: SPIE Proceedings Vol. 2259 (Stuff that Frank S. Needs in His Cellar! In-Reply-To: <01bd3748$346a5a00$c4a6410c default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"mliJf2.0.Rp6.y2ouq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > > From what tree do you pick potatoes? > > Same one that you pick your nose from? :-) > > FJS Dep Dep.... Nose tree? > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 09:47:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12886; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:38:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:38:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:33:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802121733.LAA21957 dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum To: Mitchell Swartz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"wAqzT1.0.F93.yDpuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 12, 1998 Mitch, you asked:(took the liberty to post it on vortex since it adds to an earlier post) > Are you sure that these are not used during the evacuation process >rather than during use of the tube as your post implied? No. The manufacturing process involves heating the tube's inner metal structure to red hot heat, for a period of time in high vacuum, either by induction heating (for glass envelopes) or gas heating (for metal envelopes). After sealing, the getter is flashed to absorb residual gases that may be left. You can see the metal flash on an isolated spot on tubes. The 'getter' material is active during the life of the tube. This is needed to capture furthur occluded material that boil out from the filament during use. I guess it took a lot of study to figure out this need (to extend the life of tungsten filaments) back when vacuum tubes were being developed. Just high vacuum was not enough. Break a glass vacum tube and you will see an instantneous oxidation of that flashing spot from a metal shine to a white spot. It was instructive to see how much trouble Scott had with his tungsten filaments. > Often barium (usually), ca, mg, Na, or P are used at lower >lower temps (~700C) obtained by induction heating, and generate >vaporized getter deposits upon the walls of the tube. >There residual molecules react and the vacuum is thereby improved. That's right, but for vacuum tubes, maintaining a vacuum was an active thing because the heater not only boiled out electrons but gases still occluded. Zirconium was used for x-ray tubes because the higher vapor pressures of other materials did not make them suitable. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 10:21:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29466; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:19:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:19:04 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802121733.LAA21957 dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:19:08 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum Resent-Message-ID: <"FbunE3.0.-B7.Jqpuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira, Do your books say anything about _hydrogen_ thyratrons? I haven't been able to find anything in books readily available to me without spend lots of time to search. Most thyratrons used Hg or inert gases, but hydrogen was used for high speed applications. Thinking about it, I do not know how long life was achieved in hydrogen thyratrons. They have hydrogen, oxygen sources, hot filament---just like Scott's BLP replication chamber. I don't think getters are the solution, unless there is a getter that traps oxygen, but not hydrogen. Furthermore, since oxides in the tube, like glass and mica, are continually bombarded by atomic hydrogen from the tube operation, I would expect H2O to be generated continuously. In order for the tube to have a long life, the getter would have to release the H (so as not to deplete it) and bind the O. That's a lot of O over the life of the tube. That means a lot of getter volume. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 10:30:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31478; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:26:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:26:03 -0800 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:25:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199802121825.KAA05900 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: ROSS:[OFF TOPIC] Shock Wave Sheds New Light on Fading Supernova (fwd) Resent-Message-ID: <"CHC35.0.Zh7.uwpuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >FYI new sighting / hubble : supportive aether Tidal-waves > Thanks, but I don't think we are seeing the aether waves in this instance. We are seeing the solitons slamming into the other solitons emitted previously by the profuse outpouring of aether which flings the solar wind out there. If you read carefully, they know that the super nova debris are slamming into the previously ejected matter. But what they cannot yet explain is how the previous matter had been ejected. Think about this for a minute. Why can we see our sun? If a particle gains in gravitational potential energy, and in so doing, exchanges KE for PE, then it's velocity should be reduced. Therefore, as you gain in altitude above our sun the temperature of matter should get colder just as does our atmosphere here on earth. Some savy ones of you will point out that indeed, our ionosphere gets hot way up there. But you must realize that our ionosphere has an external heat source, our sun, while the sun does not have an external heat source so these are not the same. The solar atmosphere ought to get progressively cooler, but it doesn't. The solar wind accelerates right on out of our solar system. At 50 AU, ie 50 times the radius of earth's orbit, way way out there, the solar wind is still speeding up even though it is so far that there is no more photonic heating to speak of. Photonic pressure would not accelerate the solar wind beyond the corona if I recall. The heat source is trivial by the time you get to earth because it is so sparse. But fancy that, when a main sequence star runs out of hydrogen to burn, it bloats up into a huge red giant star, where as we should always expect, the temperature of the gas indeed gets cooler with increasing altitude. But then on goes the furnace again when helium ignites, and blammo, you cast off all of those outer layers and expose a white dwarf inside as the final cinder. Other stars go the super nova or black hole route. That is because heavy nuclei above iron confine a greater amount of aether inside. So when they run out of fuel and begin to convergently collapse after burning up to heavier elements, the run past iron and further crunching no longer releases more aether to add to the gravitational buoyancy. So that sets up a convergent flow of aether toward the center of that collapsing star, from the rest of the surrounding universe. If that convergence is great enough, then you set up a sort of standing hydraulic jump where you are literally condensing empty space into aether condensate inside of the event horizon. If you look at some of the nebulai in Bruce Ballick's web site about planetary nebulae, you will see some of the emission sequences that preceeded SN1987A. I think that the beautiful Butterfly nebula and another one I forget the name now, demonstrate the effect of aether blasting out of a really massive star, where hourglass shaped nebulae are formed. Hubble APOD web site has beautiful ones of these. Thanks again, Ross From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 10:40:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01830; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:37:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:37:11 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34E34143.375272AA ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:36:51 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Xudgl2.0.WS.L5quq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > Do your books say anything about _hydrogen_ thyratrons? I haven't been able > to find anything in books readily available to me without spend lots of > time to search. This page may be of interest: Pulse Power Switching Devices - An Overview -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 11:28:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00508; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:22:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:22:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34E34B81.4F2A interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:20:33 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> <34E2AB89.D3A@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FpsrB.0.m7.klquq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > > It seems we've concluded that a properly wound > toroid can be used to generate a curl-free A field. > Can we make one that might give a demonstrably large > time delay to a passing electron? Here's a possible > construction for an experiment. > (snip Robert's interesting development of what seems to be a hollow- center-conductor, shorted coax line, with the dielectric replaced by a core material of some sort (iron?).) OK, I have been grasping for an "engineer's view" of this Aharonov- Bohm effect and my thoughts go as follows: Engineers all know that toroidal transformers work just fine, and that we shouldn't worry that we can't see any B flux in the hole of the (smooth, continous windings) toroid. Now, let us say we have a toroidal winding and core and we fire an electron (or a larger blob of charge) thru the hole parallel to the axis. Won't this look like an alternating (one pulse) current flowing in a "one-turn-winding" through the toroid hole? By induction, we engineers would expect to see emf and counter emf forces act in the windings of the toroid AND on the passing charge - right? (Stenger asks with a hint of uncertainty in his mind!). Now, let's hop on the charge and change to a reference frame moving with the charge. We now see this toroidal magnetic field zooming toward us AND, we know that (because Richard Becker, may he rest in peace, told me so) the magnetic field moving normal to its direction of magnitization has an electric field associated with it in the direction of the velocity vector crossed with the magnitization vector. I'll not be too quantitative here because I'm not sure I have all my ducks in a row on this. Anyway, again, as the toroid zooms by and around us, we are not surprized to feel the tug of the electric field on our charge. Now, does not either view tend to support the fact that conventional induction can produce the A-B effect? Another point. Suppose our toroid coil had no core AND had no magnetic field inside. Suppose the toroid winding was shorted. When the electron (or larger charge blob) sails through the hole, won't a current pulse be induced in the shorted toroid winding and if the winding has resistive losses, won't there be a retardation of the moving charge? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 13:27:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA32212; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:23:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:23:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:22:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802122122.PAA04186 dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"5AEbz.0.Bt7.KXsuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 12, 1998 Michael & vortex, John Steck posted a relavent webpage to visit: > This page may be of interest: > Pulse Power Switching Devices - An Overview > The page lists Thyratrons of the hydrogen and deuterium types. Better yet, you could probably contact the author of the page, John Pasley, for more detailed information at the U. of Alberta. I'll look around in the meanwhile. So far, what I have is of the mercury and inert gas variety. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 14:15:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24090; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:01:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:01:57 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Origin of the Dynamic Growth of Vapor Bubbles Associated with Vapor Explosions Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:58:00 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3801$48fe73c0$97a6410c default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD37C6.9C9F9BC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"V2Jua.0.Hu5.B5tuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD37C6.9C9F9BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~merte/vgrl/vbe.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD37C6.9C9F9BC0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Origin of the Dynamic Growth of Vapor Bubbles Associated with Vapor Explosions.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Origin of the Dynamic Growth of Vapor Bubbles Associated with Vapor Explosions.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~merte/vgrl/vbe.html Modified=A07E76360138BD01C1 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD37C6.9C9F9BC0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 14:27:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25101; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:08:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E371F5.3A5FAD6 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:34:37 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Suggested Research References: <3a44e9fe.34e26705 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"op7kv3.0.686.PBtuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puthoff aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/11/98 4:07:32 PM, gwatson microtronics.com.au wrote: > > < more output than input. >> > > A very knowledgeable experimenter I know built the Hyde device with great > attention to detail and it did not work. Even Moray King, who first brought > the Hyde device to everyone's attention several years ago, has not been able > to verify that it works. So I would not take this as a solid stake in the > ground. > > Hal Puthoff Hi Hal, Are details of his replication available? My recent experience of working with high inductance, high resistance coils suggests the Hyde device should work. Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 14:54:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00618; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:44:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:44:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:41:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802122241.QAA28338 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: Schaffer gav.gat.com Resent-Message-ID: <"Lv9L8.0.R9.-ituq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Februasry 12, 1998 You wrote: >Thinking about it, I do not know how long life was achieved in >hydrogen thyratrons. They have hydrogen, oxygen sources, hot >filament---just like Scott's BLP replication chamber. I don't think >getters are the solution, unless there is a getter that traps oxygen, >but not hydrogen. Furthermore, since oxides in the tube, like glass >and mica, are continually bombarded by atomic hydrogen from the tube >operation, I would expect H2O to be generated continuously. In order >for the tube to have a long life, the getter would have to release the >H (so as not to deplete it) and bind the O. That's a lot of O over the >life of the tube. That means a lot of getter volume. There used be listed in the CRC and Lange's an Electromotive Force list of metals. It was not a complete list. This list named elements that were the most active relative to hydrogen and below. Lithium topped the list. For silicon reacting with H2O gave SiO2 + 4H+ + 4e, there is an oxidation potential of +0.86. I take this to mean that hydrogen is not about to attack glass, free up silicon and combine with oxygen. This also applies to other oxides tied in materials used in thyratrons. For thyratrons of the mercury and inert gas types, a magnesium getter was used to "capture any active gas" such as oxygen that may be present or released later with use. This should be true for hydrogen, deuterium thyratrons. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 15:07:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00777; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:45:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:45:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E37ADD.3E074C31 microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:12:37 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Re: Suggested Research References: <3.0.1.32.19980212163055.006d8e40 pd.uwa.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Yb_QI.0.3C.xjtuq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Winterflood wrote: > > Hal Puthoff wrote: > > > >A very knowledgeable experimenter I know built the Hyde device with great > >attention to detail and it did not work. Even Moray King, who first brought > >the Hyde device to everyone's attention several years ago, has not been able > >to verify that it works. So I would not take this as a solid stake in the > >ground. > > Thanks Hal. That is the sort of information we need to save wasting > everybodies time. If Moray King has not been able to verify it one > wonders where he gets the "private communication" references from > (see end of his "Tapping Zero Point Energy" paper). I suppose > he just took Mr Hyde at his word. I wonder if there is a second > witness anywhere else in the world willing to back up Mr Hyde's > word? Anyone know? > > I seem to remember someone important saying something about truth > being established "at the mouth of two or three (independent) > witnesses". That is what we badly need for these overunity claims. > If there was a second witness to Greg's rollaround it would be > wonderful but I failed to find one (I tried Epitaxy but he never > responded). One would think that it would have been so simple > for some independent person who lived near to have dropped by > to be able to say "no wires, nowhere really to hide a battery, > and yes it goes around and around!" I can't understand why Greg > got shirty when it was suggested that someone else took a look. > But then neither could many of us understand why he was apparently > so open about it in the first place. Altogether a strange chapter > in the book of FE. While Epitaxy was the only rollaround verification, there are several rollaway verifications. As to my getting shity, that is not the case. To achieve a very large capital injection, I approached 3 local people who I thought I knew and could work with. A letter of agreement was created and signed to form the first link in a series of events which would result on the formation of a Non-Profit Research company (DMEC). I believed the process would only take a few weeks. To make a now long story short, things haven't gone well. My goals and those of the investors are not working out the same. DMEC still hasn't been formed and I have been told I will get a restraining order placed on me if I break the terms of the agreement. The agreement becomes void in May. If DMEC moves ahead, the SMOTs will ship, if not, they will ship in May and Hal's will be delivered in person. > Incidentally if you take a look at the Hyde patent and the circuit > supposedly for "multiplying current conducted .. while reducing > potentials" then it seems he didn't have much of a clue about how > diodes and capacitors work when interconnected. Unless there is > some accidental stray inductance having some effect of which he > seems unaware, then I would guess that he could have replaced his > 12 diodes and 6 capacitors per stator plate pair (~2000 capacitors > and diodes according to King) with a bridge rectifier per pair and > a single capacitor for the whole lot. Believe that would eliminate the effect King discusses in his paper. > This is not something that > inspires my confidence in Mr Hyde's prowess! So what if Hyde is not a electrical engineer or maybe he found that the circuit worked better than a bridge for his needs. My point in bringing up the device was to show a direction of research which runs parallel to the nanosecond PMOD and ties into Newman with his very large inductance coils with their many seconds of CRT. Two way energy conversions systems have what I call a CRT (Critical Reaction Time). This I define as the time it takes for the system to reflect a change in the load condition back to the source and for the source to react and resupply the load with more / less power. This time is finite and varies with the dynamics of the system. It appears that when you push a two way conversion system beyond its CRT (in most cases, you have to design for this to happen) you may open the door to balancing energy input from the ZP field as cause and effect breakdown. > Thanks again Hal, I have asked Hal for details of the Hyde replication. Sometimes when we replicate, we improve. > John Winterflood Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 15:53:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08434; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:48:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:48:48 -0800 Message-ID: <34E38A1A.465EABCD microtronics.com.au> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:17:38 +1030 From: Greg Watson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Server Freenrg CC: List Server Vortex Subject: Simple Experiment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DQJhg.0.f32.Vfuuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Here is a real simple experiment. You will need : 1) Large inductance air core inductor with high resistance (Borrow a large coil of fine wire). 2) Small Battery. 3) 100 Ohm resistor. 4) Ferrite / Steel Rod. 5) Some hookup wire. 6) Switch. 7) Foam pad. Setup : 1) Place foam pad on bench with coil on top and hole upward. 2) Connect battery, switch, resistor and coil in series, in this order. 3) Connect free battery terminal to free coil terminal. 4) Connect a short length of hookup wire from one of the coil connections to near the other to allow the coil to be shorted. What to do : Test 1 1) Connect battery to coil (no rod) through resistor for 30 seconds. 2) Short coil together and observe size and duration of spark. Test 2 3) Repeat step 1. 4) Drop the rod into the centre of the coil. 5) At the instant the rod hits bottom, short coil and observe size and duration of spark. Test 3 6) Repeat step 1. 7) Short the coil. 8) Repeat step 4. 9) At the instant the rod hits bottom, release coil short and observe size and duration of spark. If you think that the size and duration of the spark is the same in all of the 3 tests, YOU should really do this test. If you have a Hall effect sensor handy, watch what happens to the flux density. Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 16:21:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17543; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:18:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:18:00 -0800 From: Puthoff aol.com Message-ID: <2f3da550.34e3910c aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:17:14 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Suggested Research Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"1QJ0e1.0.tH4.q4vuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greg, You said <> It wasn't published, but I'll see if I can get any details to pass on. Hal From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 16:39:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22401; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:34:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:34:25 -0800 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:27:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802130027.SAA24168 dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Run 12 underway To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"CUfJe2.0.pT5.FKvuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 12, 1998 Scott, >Run 12 is on the road! (driver more alert this time, hopefully). >I put in a strip of Al foil wrapped around the >cartridge heater and the 6-32 stud. The heavy W filament is also >wrapped around the heater: Double-Whammy getter. > >With the thermocouple strapped to the heater as well, we see ~550C surface >temp at 30 watts in vacuum. That should activate the Al! Good luck Commercial home use Al foil has some coatings that should be baked out prior to use to expose the metal surface. Hand handling of the foil will add extra contaminants like oils. Also aluminum retains its metallic surface because it is protected by its oxide film. So I hope you have something to suck out the smoke emitted from heated foil before introducing your hydrogen. At least that's what I think will happen. If that doesn't happen, good. >Run 12 plan: > >Bake out with the heater mostly, adding filament power briefly near >the end of the bakeout to degas the filament. I do not think that is enough to degas the filament. For vacuum tubes, the 'bake-out' involves red-hot heat of the entire assembly for a period of time, then a getter is used for what comes out of the filament. Well anyway, good luck. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 18:20:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18386; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:08:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:08:43 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980212215130.00ad9008 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:51:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BCcUD.0.CV4.eiwuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:58 PM 2/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >It seems we've concluded that a properly wound >toroid can be used to generate a curl-free A field. >Can we make one that might give a demonstrably large >time delay to a passing electron? Here's a possible >construction for an experiment. Large snip >Regards, >Robert Stirniman > Interesting thought. I'd be more inclined to study a system where electrons were oscillating and a resonance achieved. Two such systems would be measured differentially; one in the enviroment of the large A field. Such would present a very sensitive test. Hell, the kitchen would do just fine :^) It really begs the question as to why this field is associated with time. I'm not sure I'm buying Wesleys arguments; does anyone else make such a claim? Hal P. was kind enough to provide some references last week, haven't followed up yet. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 18:21:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18689; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:09:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:09:58 -0800 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802122241.QAA28338 dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:35:13 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum Resent-Message-ID: <"OR4YF2.0.mZ4.pjwuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Akira Kawasaki replied, re materials in hydrogen thyratrons: >There used be listed in the CRC and Lange's an Electromotive Force list >of metals. It was not a complete list. This list named elements that >were the most active relative to hydrogen and below. Lithium topped the >list. For silicon reacting with H2O gave SiO2 + 4H+ + 4e, there is an >oxidation potential of +0.86. I take this to mean that hydrogen is not >about to attack glass, free up silicon and combine with oxygen. This >also applies to other oxides tied in materials used in thyratrons. For >thyratrons of the mercury and inert gas types, a magnesium getter was >used to "capture any active gas" such as oxygen that may be present or >released later with use. This should be true for hydrogen, deuterium >thyratrons. This list is for aqueous chemistry. In thyratrons we deal with atomic hydrogen mixed with molecular hydrogen. I think the ordering is somewhat different. However, it might still hold that SiO2 is resistant. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 18:54:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29278; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:51:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:51:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:34:00 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"dKJIJ2.0.L97.IKxuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:20 PM 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >Now, let us say we have a toroidal winding and core and we fire an >electron (or a larger blob of charge) thru the hole parallel to the >axis. Won't this look like an alternating (one pulse) current flowing >in a "one-turn-winding" through the toroid hole? By induction, we >engineers would expect to see emf and counter emf forces act in the >windings of the toroid AND on the passing charge - right? (Stenger asks >with a hint of uncertainty in his mind!). Snip >Frank Stenger > This was the discussion awhile back concerning those magnet experiments of JLNaudin. Basically, the fact of the matter is that induction can occur despite there being no local B field in the vicinity of the conductor. Hal P. remarked to me as well in the same vein as you Frank. I don't have any problem with this, as I think it is necessary to view induction as a field phenomena having little to do with the actual value of B at the wire surface. Induction is literally the storage of energy in space. Hal's attitude was the time rate of change of A field was the agent of induction. (sorry if I'm simplifing your view Hal, please jump in and correct me). He seemed troubled by the notion of the contained flux affecting the external turn. Not disparate views; but some difference here. The real AB effect is more of a steady state field thing; if you run DC thru the coil will the electron blob be affected as it passes thru the hole? KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 19:36:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07800; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:31:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:31:22 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:30:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd37cb$19e70060$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9tcKa.0.fv1.5wxuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Schaffer gav.gat.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 7:26 PM Subject: Re: Getter materials used to maintain high vacuum Re: materials in Hydrogen Thyratrons Michael Schaffer wrote: >In thyratrons we deal with atomic >hydrogen mixed with molecular hydrogen. I think the ordering is somewhat >different. However, it might still hold that SiO2 is resistant. It takes temperatures at or above the melting temperature of Silicon (~1400 C) to reduce SiO2 (Mp ~1610 C)with Carbon or Magnesium: SiO2 + 2 C ----> Si + 2 CO SiO2 + 2 Mg ----> Si + 2 MGO It is highly unlikely that H2 or the H Free Radical could do this to hard glass or quartz: 2 H2 + SiO2 -----> Si + 2 H2O -205 kcal -104 kcal except on a star or supernova. :-) Barium is used as a getter in vacuum tubes because it forms other compounds as well as the oxide. For the BLP experiments Aluminum or Magnesium that form extremely stable oxides that can't possibly be reduced by Hydrogen should be more than adequate. The 25 Megwatt Hydrogen Thyratrons (in Hard Glass about 6" diameter x 30" tall) with 150 watt tungsten filaments (15 minute filament warmup required), do very well. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 19:54:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12672; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:51:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:51:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:50:24 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: little eden.com Subject: Re: Run 12 underway In-Reply-To: <199802130027.SAA24168 dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wiKA03.0.p53.jCyuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > February 12, 1998 > Scott, > > Commercial home use Al foil has some coatings that should be baked out > prior to use to expose the metal surface. Hand handling of the foil > will add extra contaminants like oils. Also aluminum retains its > metallic surface because it is protected by its oxide film. So I hope > you have something to suck out the smoke emitted from heated foil > before introducing your hydrogen. At least that's what I think will > happen. If that doesn't happen, good. I always wondered why "one side was Shinier than the other" -thanks- :) -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 19:59:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11024; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:45:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:45:47 -0800 Message-ID: <34E3C181.4A88 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:44:01 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZYzMk1.0.6i2.f7yuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Keith Nagel wrote: > > At 02:20 PM 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Now, let us say we have a toroidal winding and core and we fire an > >electron (or a larger blob of charge) thru the hole parallel to the > >axis. Won't this look like an alternating (one pulse) current flowing > >in a "one-turn-winding" through the toroid hole? By induction, we > >engineers would expect to see emf and counter emf forces act in the > >windings of the toroid AND on the passing charge - right? (Stenger asks > >with a hint of uncertainty in his mind!). > > Snip > > >Frank Stenger > > Keith said: (snip) > The real AB effect is more of a steady state field thing; if > you run DC thru the coil will the electron blob be affected as > it passes thru the hole? Let it be a superconducting coil with a circulating current. Now, moving with the electron blob, we see only its electric field, right? But, in the frame of the toroid, we will see that the region around the charge blob is surrounded by a "halo" of magnetic induction (B), I guess shaped like that around the clasic "differential current element" in the differential form of Biot's law. How can this time- varying magnetic field avoid interacting with ANY conductor loop(s) in planes parallel to its velocity vector? Now that I think of it, if an electron speeds past a nearby superconducting surface, doesn't this associated magnetic field tend to make the electron "surf" away from the surface? Plenty questions - no answers ----------- Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 20:17:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17879; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:11:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:11:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980212235354.00acde70 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:53:58 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"A2vqR.0.FN4.rVyuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:44 PM 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote: >Let it be a superconducting coil with a circulating current. Now, >moving with the electron blob, we see only its electric field, right? >But, in the frame of the toroid, we will see that the region around >the charge blob is surrounded by a "halo" of magnetic induction (B), >I guess shaped like that around the clasic "differential current >element" in the differential form of Biot's law. How can this time- >varying magnetic field avoid interacting with ANY conductor loop(s) >in planes parallel to its velocity vector? Now that I think of it, if >an electron speeds past a nearby superconducting surface, doesn't >this associated magnetic field tend to make the electron "surf" away >from the surface? > >Plenty questions - no answers ----------- Frank Stenger > Yep, no need for the supercoductor either. The effect you describe would be just as intense with no current at all in the torroid. Point being that mutual induction is just that. When one talks about the coupling between the single turn and the torroid the field that is shared is the relevent quantity. Another crucial factor is the time rate of change of the field. Remembers, transformers don't pass DC. It would be quite remarkable if the electron veered off more if a steady current flowed in the torroidal coil. Think about it. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 21:10:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA30317; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:06:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:06:51 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:06:33 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, jayneg@grove.iup.edu, DennTKD@aol.com, jurgolites gpu.com, rgagich@gpu.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Judiciary has run amuck in the United States! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"hDqFW.0.cP7.fJzuq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I did time in the Cambria County Prison on Wednesday Feb the 11th. To begin, I didn't do anything illegal. It was my friend Mr X who had done the drunk driving. I was not even there! Mr. X got busted with .2% alcohol in his blood. Pennsylvania required him to attend their ARD program or do time. One requirement of that program is a visit to the jail, and he MUST bring a friend with him or spend 30 days in jail. He called and asked, "Will you go with me?" Of course I said, "Yes". We both watched a tape about drunk driving. I, remember, didn't do any drunk driving. Then we went to the prison. They ran us though a metal detector searched me with a wand and brought a prisoner to talk with us. The prisoner told us that the the food was real bad and that they stab each other with ink pens in the cells. They told us the next time we do any drunk driving we are going to do time here. Remember, I never did any drunk driving! Then they locked me an Mr. X in the cell to get a feel of it, clink went the door. After about one minute, I started banging on door and said, "I want out!" My friend said, "Shut up!" They left us in there for about 10 minutes. One woman in the next cell started crying and, It was her husband who did the drunk driving! I think the judiciary in this country has really run amuck at all levels. Bugging the private conversation of Monica Lowinsky and Pennsylvania's bring a friend to jail program. I was planning to do my computer programming homework that night and it did not get done. What was the point of this? It didn't help me, I got a zero on my homework! It might of helped Mr. X but he could have done this by himself. Frank Znidarsic  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 22:56:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19288; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:49:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:49:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980213004825.00885a10 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:48:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 12 results Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lrSsz1.0.Ej4.Bq-uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: They're at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run12.html Executive summary: the new changes didn't help a lot...if any. The filament last 1 hour and 20 minutes this time. I'm going to look up some detailed information on hydrogen thyratrons at the UT library. I'll also check out the books that Aki mentioned about tube mfg. Meanwhile, the Pt wire should be here real soon...that may be the next filament. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 12 23:55:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24762; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:50:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:50:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980213014930.00888dc0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:49:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980212215130.00ad9008 cnct.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"7P8rl1.0.p26.1j_uq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 11:58 PM 2/11/98 -0800, Robert S wrote: >>It seems we've concluded that a properly wound >>toroid can be used to generate a curl-free A field. >>Can we make one that might give a demonstrably large >>time delay to a passing electron? Here's a possible >>construction for an experiment. I've been on the fringes of this discussion, so forgive me: It's not the speed of the electron that affected by an A field is it? It's only the phase of the electron's wave function...a relatively immaterial attribute requiring, for example, unaffected electrons in an interference arrangement to detect. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 03:21:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA20760; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:15:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Filament temp? Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:14:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd380c$0164fb00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dc1Ak1.0.I45.Oj2vq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2,049 K and an emissivity of unity a filament will radiate 100 watts/cm^2 to space at absolute zero. In a chamber at 550 C (873 K) only 2.62 watts/cm^2 can be radiated. In a glass-enclosed Hydrogen Thyratron the radiated power to a 293 K environment would be 5.672E-12*(2,049^4 - 293^4) = 100 - 0.042 = 99.958 watts/cm^2. A 25 watt, 12 volt bulb : P = 25 = 12^2/R then R = 5.76 ohms, and the bulb is radiating 25 watts to say a 300 K environment. Thus it's temp has to be 1,449 K or it's area has to be a lot less than one cm^2. :-) The point, How hot is that filament getting in the chamber that is looking like a heat sink somewhere between 600 - 900 K? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 03:53:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24326; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:47:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:47:53 -0800 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:47:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: quick update Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JuBam3.0.xx5.dB3vq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, Having a little trouble with making the polyelectrolyte, though not much. Zinc Acrylate and a little bit of crosslinker (1,2 Butyn-diol) do form a lovely creamy gel when I heat them in a beaker in a water bath (near 100C) exposed to light as a test. Trouble is that I need to guarrantee high molecular weight so that the end product stays behind those glass beads I etched. I get a suspension when I put the gel in water susgesting that the polymer is of the order of a micron, the beads are 10-100 micron and the polymer should fit snuggly inside. Going to ditch the autopolymerisation and use a free radical (or as my old chemistry teacher who was well rightwing used to put it 'fee wadical' :) initiator, sodium acrylate and crosslinker. Polymerisation is a bit of an art the experts tell me, things have to very clean and done at low temperatures to achieve high molecular weight. Sorry I can't join in the fray more, I'm a bit busy and away from college where I email. Scanned your emails, yep I think we're all agreed that the mark of a civilised society is repsect for: freedom, property and wealth acquistion, privacy. It is this space which allows thinkers to create rather than the central planning approach. I'd say there is a conspricay by collectivists (be they facists or socialists) to control other people's life and wealth. The mass fear the free thinker and he (she) is mobbed. The fashion today if you want to break someone, to make them crumble, for what ever reason or vested interest they have is the personal slur. The fact that it happens to the Clintons or Blair cabinets is justice to me. Whilst in opposition, that was the game they played, now it comes round to haunt them. They, the left wing intelligencia, lowered the standard of discourse - check our universities - PC, the Dead White Male slur, revisonist history, muck raking biographies of Heroes and Heroines. Anyway, they're socialists playing the base populist card with your money to keep themselves in power (humanitarian? BS!). What goes around, comes around. Play the game, play it fair, *never* lose you cool, never yield to anything but objectivity. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 04:33:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18886; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:24:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:24:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Data, Bottom Line Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:22:43 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3815$80c36680$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vPLHL.0.0d4.Nk3vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With the possibility of Order of Magnitude changes in the resistance of the heater units, no matter how good the calorimeter, without voltage and amperage,and/or resistance determination of power input, the calorimetry is useless. IMHO. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 04:46:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22009; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:42:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:42:41 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34E3E91B.5401544A mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:32:59 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 results References: <3.0.5.32.19980213004825.00885a10 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aoXlD2.0.pN5._-3vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: ... Executive summary: the new changes didn't help a lot...if any. The filament lasted 1 hour and 20 minutes this time. ... Hi Scott, I think a fair executive summary is: Given a reactor geometry with 5 times the surface-to-volume ratio as BLP, a filament-to-wall radius (probably) much less than BLP, a batch reaction mode of operation, AND a tungsten filament, no excess heat is observed. Negative design data is important, but you should wait for the platinum filament before investing any more effort. Getters, sacrificial tungsten, etc. would have to used in some miraculous combination to go beyond the clear message of the data. Your work is very important. Please do not be discouraged. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 06:12:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11063; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:08:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:08:04 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: Simple Experiment Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:01:18 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980213140720004.AAA168 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"z3jKX3.0.ji2.2F5vq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With respect to Greg's simple experiment: I believe this would be very familiar to Joseph Newman, who does something very much like this in his Energy Machines. Mike Carrell ------------------------Greg writes, > Hi All, > > Here is a real simple experiment. > > You will need : > > 1) Large inductance air core inductor with high resistance (Borrow a > large coil of fine wire). > > 2) Small Battery. > > 3) 100 Ohm resistor. > > 4) Ferrite / Steel Rod. > > 5) Some hookup wire. > > 6) Switch. > > 7) Foam pad. > > > Setup : > > 1) Place foam pad on bench with coil on top and hole upward. > > 2) Connect battery, switch, resistor and coil in series, in this order. > > 3) Connect free battery terminal to free coil terminal. > > 4) Connect a short length of hookup wire from one of the coil > connections to near the other to allow the coil to be shorted. > > > What to do : > > Test 1 > > 1) Connect battery to coil (no rod) through resistor for 30 seconds. > > 2) Short coil together and observe size and duration of spark. > > > Test 2 > > 3) Repeat step 1. > > 4) Drop the rod into the centre of the coil. > > 5) At the instant the rod hits bottom, short coil and observe size and > duration of spark. > > > Test 3 > > 6) Repeat step 1. > > 7) Short the coil. > > 8) Repeat step 4. > > 9) At the instant the rod hits bottom, release coil short and observe > size and duration of spark. > > > If you think that the size and duration of the spark is the same in all > of the 3 tests, YOU should really do this test. > > If you have a Hall effect sensor handy, watch what happens to the flux > density. > > Greg From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 06:39:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15135; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:27:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:27:17 -0800 Message-ID: <34E456C2.7DA6 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:20:50 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Filament temp? References: <01bd380c$0164fb00$LocalHost default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gsaZc1.0.Ki3.4X5vq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > > The point, How hot is that filament getting in the chamber that is looking > like a heat sink somewhere between 600 - 900 K? > Good point, Fred! If Scott had a small window in the chamber, he might be able to use a color reference filament to estimate temp. Run a reference bulb outside and to one side of the window. Look at the filaments with a "partial reflection" setup - glass sheets at an angle for partial reflection. Might this work? I remember a test in high school physics - come to think about it, the lights were at opposite ends of a meter stick on clamps. The mirrors were two pieces of glass at a 45 deg angle. When you looked from the side into the outside corner angle, the two filaments appeared side-by-side for close color match. Of course, "big bucks" Scott may want to use an optical pyrometer - wimp's way out! :-). Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 06:56:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06556; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:46:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:46:24 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <3f472e30.34e45c4e aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:44:28 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, TCVFRANK@aol.com, RVargo1062@aol.com, jewel@sgi.net, jayneg grove.iup.edu, DennTKD@aol.com, rgagich@gpu.com, Jrtnztjftk aol.com, jurgolites@gpu.com, djacoby@gpu.com, jbarron gpu.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Brian Rickens Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"k05Kp2.0.Jc1.-o5vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One Saturday Feb 7 I and Mr Denntkd (on this address list) went out to a local Night Club Yesterday's party. I was dancing with a friend to my favorite oldies band Still Water. About 4 feet in front of my a man, Brian Rickens, fell on the dance floor. My response was to go up to him and say, "Hey You!" At first, I thought he was going to get up. I then saw that he looked real bad, he was shaking and his eyes were rolled up. I thought he was having a seizure. More people quickly congregated around Mr. Rickens. The band stopped and said, "May we have the house lights Please!" A very attractive young lady, Jenette, ran over and started administering CPR. She motioned for her boy friend to help. (I find out later that they had a fight, She was angry because he would not help, and he was angry because he didn't want her pressing her mouth against Mr. Rickens.) A fireman in the crowd quickly came over to help Jenette. The ambulance arrived within a few minutes. They gave Brian, right where he fell, two big shots, zaped him with a zapper while staying, "Clear!", and placed him on squeeze ventilator. This went on for about 20 minutes. Then they carted Mr Rickens out. I was told, "He is dead!" Brian Rickens age 38, security guard, single, degree in accounting, and gulf prow, gone. I later find out that the autopsy revealed that Brian had choked on a chicken bone. No-one knew this, including myself. I never gave this much thought but we should all know the universal symbol for choking. Grab yourself by the neck or grab someone near by the neck to get their attention. This may have saved Brian's life. Frank Znidarsic  From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 07:17:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08516; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:59:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 06:59:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213085947.00adf784 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:59:47 -0600 To: "Vortex-L" From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Filament temp? In-Reply-To: <01bd380c$0164fb00$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"K72ko2.0.-42.a_5vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 16:14 2/12/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >At 2,049 K and an emissivity of unity a filament will radiate 100 watts/cm^2 Our walls are about 500K (227C). Using the radiation eqn we can solve for the apparent area of our filament using the observed temps during the 10 watt bakeout in vacuum. Tfil = ~1780C = 2050K Twall = ~230C = 500K P = 10 watts With the assumption of unity emissivity, this yields an area of 0.1 cm^2...which seems quite reasonable. In fact, the filament is a little tight coil that measure 0.076 cm dia by .74 cm long. The surface area of such a cylinder is 0.18 cm^2 but, of course, the filament is just a wire wound into that shape and would have a smaller effective radiating area. Fred also said: >With the possibility of Order of Magnitude changes in the resistance of the >heater units, >no matter how good the calorimeter, without >voltage and amperage,and/or resistance determination of power input, the >calorimetry >is useless. IMHO. :-) But of course! This is why we have been monitoring both voltage and current on the filament and on the cartridge heater from the beginning. If you like I could do a plot of any of the BLP runs with all those traces on it. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 09:18:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29116; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:55:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802131655.KAA15664 dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 To: little eden.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"wnFkc2.0.o67.cm7vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 13, 1998 Scott & Vortex, While talking about getters, a small thought bugged me: Incandescent light bulbs do not have getters. Looking up bulbs to confirm what I remembered, light bulbs are made either with straight vacuum or usually contain either nitrogen or a combination of argon and nitrogen gases under light pressure. The presense of the gases helps in stength requirements of the bulb and in the extending the life of the filament with cooling by heat transfer to the bulb wall along with radiation. Whether the presense of those gases along with your hydrogen affects results, I do not know. The requirement for degassing the setup still applies. To quote: "The metal parts are frequently baked in a hydrogen atmosphere, to remove oxygen from the pores of the metal." Even after that, getters are used in vacuum tubes to catch "considerable imbedded gases which is certain to be liberated when the tube is in use, resulting in gassy tubes". For this reason, the book (Ghiradi) recommends use of molybdnum for wires and supports rather than nickel other metals when costs are secondary. You know, it might be faster and cheaper if you get a 5U4 power rectifier tube (still available pretty cheap and of fair size), strip the bakelite base and introduce your hydrogen into the tube through the sealed evacuating nipple. Careful with the technique. All the degassing has been done for you, with getters included. The tube contains a thoriated flat ribbon (probably heftier than the auto lamps) tungsten filament used also as a cathode and large anode plates around them. I would try to use the whole thing without breaking the envelope otherwise, the same problems returns. I can send you some, no costs, if you want just to fool around. Think about it. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 10:21:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10458; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:08:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:08:49 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 results Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:05:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd38a9$e9ec5510$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"F2U-D2.0.HZ2.fm8vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >Executive summary: the new changes didn't help a lot...if any. The >filament last 1 hour and 20 minutes this time. This is about what I would expect. Some fraction of the H2O generated by atomic H at the metal surfaces was gettered during filament operation, but a lot still got back to the filament. It would be much better if you prevent the atomic H from reacting with materials where it can liberate water in the first place. Surround the filament with a quartz or alumina tube and much less atomic H will ever get to the walls. The ends of the tube can be partially obstructed or a smaller diameter tube can be used to improve matters. Atomic H has a limited lifetime in the gas, if it cannot reach a surface that can be reduced by its available energy no H2O will be produced. A higher pressure would also help but would put you further from BLP conditions. I have designed hundreds of experiments with reactive plasmas, and this kind of trick has been very useful. No hydrogen, but ionized helium is very energetic and reacts to decompose many materials. The only phosphor I ever found that could remain functional in direct contact with the plasma as an ac discharge anode/cathode was zinc orthosilicate. SiO2 should resist decomposition. It was surprising to realize how much of the operation of our "noble gas" devices was actually dictated by chemistry. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 10:33:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13846; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:27:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:27:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213122730.00ad5848 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:27:30 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 In-Reply-To: <199802131655.KAA15664 dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gBDPp1.0.AO3.O29vq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:55 2/13/98 -0600, Akira Kawasaki wrote: >You know, it might be faster and cheaper if you get a 5U4 power >rectifier tube.... How could I get the necessary K catalyst into the tube without spoiling all the nice outgassing, etc? George Holz wrote: >>>> Surround the filament with a quartz or alumina tube and much less atomic H will ever get to the walls. <<<<<<<< This sounds like a workable idea. The tube then serves as a baffle to retard circulation in the immediate vicinity of the filament? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 10:41:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23093; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:36:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:36:05 -0800 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:34:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802131834.MAA26968 dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 To: little eden.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"MazP-.0.We5.IA9vq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Senduing this second time since it did not show up on vortex February 13, 1998 Scott & Vortex, While talking about getters, a small thought bugged me: Incandescent light bulbs do not have getters. Looking up bulbs to confirm what I remembered, light bulbs are made either with straight vacuum or usually contain either nitrogen or a combination of argon and nitrogen gases under light pressure. The presense of the gases helps in stength requirements of the bulb and in the extending the life of the filament with cooling by heat transfer to the bulb wall along with radiation. Whether the presense of those gases along with your hydrogen affects results, I do not know. The requirement for degassing the setup still applies. To quote: "The metal parts are frequently baked in a hydrogen atmosphere, to remove oxygen from the pores of the metal." Even after that, getters are used in vacuum tubes to catch "considerable imbedded gases which is certain to be liberated when the tube is in use, resulting in gassy tubes". For this reason, the book (Ghiradi) recommends use of molybdnum for wires and supports rather than nickel other metals when costs are secondary. You know, it might be faster and cheaper if you get a 5U4 power rectifier tube (still available pretty cheap and of fair size), strip the bakelite base and introduce your hydrogen into the tube through the sealed evacuating nipple. Careful with the technique. All the degassing has been done for you, with getters included. The tube contains a flat ribbon (probably heftier than the auto lamps) tungsten filament (maybe thoriated) used also as a cathode and large anode plates around them. I would try to use the whole thing without breaking the envelope, otherwise, the same problems returns. I can send you some, no costs, if you want just to fool around. Think about it. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 13:30:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08716; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:22:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:22:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:17:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802132117.PAA20728 dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"OYkkK1.0.082.JcBvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: January 13, 1998 Scott & vortex, > >How could I get the necessary K catalyst into the tube without >spoiling all the nice outgassing, etc? When you examine the tube base, you will see an evacuation tube exntending down ending with a sealed tip. With a suitable breakoff setup figured out, the potassium nitrite powder can be vacuum sucked into the tube along with the clean, pure hydrogen being introduced. The original outgassed condition is replaced with what you introduce. You shouldn't have to worry about what to outgass before. Adjust for proper hydrogen pressure, seal, and with the potassium nitrite powder in the tube, just "Shake and Bake". Sounds faceteous but that's what it is. Shake the tube so that the powder gets on the tungsten. Then turn on the filament to heat everything to see if you get the BLP effect or whatever happens inside the tube. I visited your website again and printed out the BLP section. What I see is BLP's claim for excess heat just from heating KNO2 in the presense of hydrogen. And this gets excess heat beyond input from whatever reaction that is suppose to happen in BLP's setup? The diagram shows a choice of hydrogen or helium. Has any thought been given to using helium as a second choice? I would have thought BLP would have welcomed your effort at replication with detailed help. And, if necessary, a non disclosure agreement. Myself, I wonder about the hydrino concept being sound. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 14:04:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21514; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:52:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:52:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E4BEDB.5E52 skylink.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:44:59 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tgTwh2.0.uF5.D2Cvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger has presented the idea that the the A-B effect on a passing electron is due to classical magnetic induction. I agree. It is induction and it is a classical effect. But what kind of induction and what kind of effect? The title of the Wesley paper in Apeiron is: Induction Produces Aharonov-Bohm Effect. The "new" thing is Wesley's paper is an interpretation of induction as a full time derivative of the A field (Eulerian derivative), compared with the Maxwell equation partial time derivative. If all current flow in a system exists only in closed loops, (v.del)(A) related components of the full derivative cancel out around the loop, and a partial derivative and Maxwell's induction equation works just fine. But if a convection current exists due to mechanical motion of charges, it may be necessary to use a full time derivative to completely describe induction. Note that the factor (v.del)(A) depends on the relative spacial rate of change of v and A, and has the dimensions of dA/dt. In any case, putting aside the question of induction, the important issue is whether the A-B effect can be shown to occur in a classical sense. Wesley suggests that it can. But not by measuring the momentum or energy of the electron upon exiting the A field. It must leave in the same classical state as it enters. But Wesley suggests that a time delay may occur between entering and leaving the A field, This is a classical measurement, which could be found in one direction of motion compared with the opposite direction, or compared with the time it takes the electron to transverse the distance of the field area when the field is not present. One thing for sure is, there is an identified component of momentum of the electron charge when the electron is in the A field -- amounting to (q)(A). Assuming conservation of momentum is not violated, this momentum must be accounted for either in a change of mechanical velocity of the electron or in a change in motion of the experimental apparatus (the coil). In either case it is a plus and minus impulse change, with one direction as the electron enters and the opposite direction as the electron leaves, and no net change. One of the references Hal put up a few days ago discusses this, (Classical Origins of the Aharanov-Bohm Effect, R.M. Herman, Foundations of Physics, Vol 22 No 5, p 713). Herman argues that there is a magnetic force caused by the induced magnetic field of the passing electron acting with the magnetic field inside the coil -- resulting in a momentum transfer to the coil. There are other discussions about this in the book: Lecture Notes on Physics #340, The Aharonov-Bohm Effect, M. Peshkin and A. Tonomura, Springer Verlag 1989. I don't believe the momentum can be properly accounted for by soley looking at the induced magnetic force on the coil. The induced magnetic field (dipole field) of the passing electron decreases as the distance cubed. While in the tubular A-field generator described eariler, or in the basic toroid, the value of the A field in the tube or in the center of the toroid does not depend at all on the diameter of the tube or the toroid. The magnitude of the A field depends only on the amount of flux surrounding the tube. The value of EM field momentum change, (q)(A), does not depend on the distance to the coil, yet the value of magnetic induction and the induced force on the coil drops off by a factor of distance cubed. Some mechanical momentum change is inevitably imparted to the coil. But with a relative large diameter coil, it must be a small amount compared with the mechanical momentum change in the passing electron. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 18:35:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08479; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:21:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:21:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:14:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 results In-Reply-To: <01bd38a9$e9ec5510$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"FH3fH1.0.O42.n-Fvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: DUH! Why not use SiC element? Or Kanthal - D ... or the like! I feel such a fool! JHS On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, George Holz wrote: > Scott Little wrote: > > >Executive summary: the new changes didn't help a lot...if any. The > >filament last 1 hour and 20 minutes this time. > > This is about what I would expect. Some fraction of the H2O > generated by atomic H at the metal surfaces was gettered during > filament operation, but a lot still got back to the filament. It would > be much better if you prevent the atomic H from reacting with > materials where it can liberate water in the first place. Surround the > filament with a quartz or alumina tube and much less atomic H > will ever get to the walls. The ends of the tube can be partially > obstructed or a smaller diameter tube can be used to improve matters. > Atomic H has a limited lifetime in the gas, if it cannot reach a surface > that can be reduced by its available energy no H2O will be produced. > A higher pressure would also help but would put you further from BLP > conditions. > > I have designed hundreds of experiments with reactive plasmas, and > this kind of trick has been very useful. No hydrogen, but ionized helium > is very energetic and reacts to decompose many materials. The only phosphor > I ever found that could remain functional in direct contact with the > plasma as an ac discharge anode/cathode was zinc orthosilicate. SiO2 > should resist decomposition. It was surprising to realize how > much of the operation of our "noble gas" devices was actually dictated > by chemistry. > > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 18:38:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04748; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:33:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:33:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Scott Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6xbY93.0.0A1.q9Gvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: One way to estimate filament temp/color is to rig bridge resistance monitoring circuit. Read lamp filament in good lamp, set power supply to make it glow, say, dull red, measure on the filiment you will use... and then use same set up in your rig. AND: Just run the thing cooler! Or use MUCH bigger filament! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 20:04:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23821; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:58:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:58:32 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: [off-topic]Re: Judiciary has run amuck in the United States! Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 03:55:59 +0000 Message-ID: <19980214035540.AAC5732 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"xkA001.0.7q5.aPHvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Bugging the > private conversation of Monica Lowinsky and Pennsylvania's bring > a friend to jail program. > Frank Znidarsic When did you find this standard investigation procedure to become reprehensible? Do you think that the president should be beyond official suspicion and investigation? I really don't have a fascination with presidential penis activities, but I am concerned about overt corruption, for which there certainly seems to be tremendous anectodal and considerable hard evidence. How did you feel about the widespread condemnation of Newt Gingrich in the media for fairly obscure violations (he was talking damage control for the punishment meted out to him for admittedly making some kind of mistake like not consulting with a lawyer when it was required) learned about through an illegal taping of a cellular phone conversation? I remember no outrage in the media for the illegal wiretapping, but the transgression was made to seem dire. Could there be a media bias? Sorry about the zero. This buddy system is probably designed to bring some measure of accountability into the personal life of the violator. He would have to have a pretty good friend to share the punishment for a deed not committed. Every time he thinks of you or about drinking, it is likely to have some effect. As to whether it works or not, well... I defend the practice of posting politically inspired comments on Vortex because I believe that something with the politically fundamentally overwhelming aspects of the usual discourse on this list should be viewed in a political context from time to time, although few people of a scientific bent seem to concern themselves much with politics to any depth. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 20:21:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24024; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:02:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:02:35 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: "Rich Murray" , Cc: Subject: Re: A final response Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:00:23 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980214040102268.AAA157 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"7yBhw1.0.It5.PTHvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kirk wrote: > I was disappointed to read your latest essay on the A&Z claims of cold > fusion in a 'DS-cathode'. After all the notes back and forth on this > it was disheartening to see that everything I had said was ignored. > The only good thing was that our exchanges remained civil. I will > respond this one last time, but I think I am past the point of > diminishing returns, so I will make this my last one. I am sorry for any disappointment. I appreciate the time and thought you have taken and the civility of the discourse. It has been valuable to me, for I would not have studied so intently if it were not to meet your challenges. I now realize that I had not given proper attention to all the nuances of what you were saying, partly because I am on unfamiliar ground and climbing up my own learning curve. I did not have 1994(E), which contains essential information. I have carefully studied your current post and looked again and again at the A&Z material, and have discovered two errors, each of which invalidate the analysis of Fig 7 1997 HTS, but not necessarily your basic position. I became entangled in your line of reasoning and it took quite a bit of time to spot them, but once seen, they are obvious. I have reviewed your earlier posts as well as still more careful study of the A&Z material, and find that the area of disagreement is rather small. A&Z make much of the special qualities of the DS cathode and Pd-black as keys to their early and continuing success in CF. There is merit in this position. You point out that D is readily absorbed by Pd up to D/Pd = 0.65 in a pressure vessel before pressure rise is seen, and this is consistent with 'incubation' time shown in A&Z graphs, without invoking the 'spillover' phenomenon as a special property of Pd-black. There are some specific data which illuminate this area, which center on 1994(E) Fig 6(B). This warrants more careful attention than either of us gave it at first. You noted a discrepancy in the time scale between this and other pressure-time curves, including Fig 7 of 1997 HTS, and were led to conclude that Fig 7 was in error (it is not), which led to a flawed numerical analysis which contained another error which I will come to later. Fig 6(B) is for measurements made in a stainless steel pressure vessel, "DS-Vessel", described on p108 of 1994(E). It is not a cathode, and its time scale is not that of cathodes. D2 is introduced through a leak and pressure rise measured with various fillings. There is no incubation period for an empty cavity. When filled with Ni "powder" of unspecified particle size, the pressure rises initially faster and then parallels that of the empty cavity. The empty space is smaller than an unfilled cavity, so for a given leak rate the rate of rise (from a vacuum) will be greater, slowing down as the gas density increases in the powder. The cavity pressure is always higher than the empty cavity. When filled with Pd filings, coarse particles, the initial pressure rise from vacuum is like that with the Ni powder, but it falls again to near zero in about five minutes as absorption matches the inlet flow, then gradually rises to match the rate for the Ni powder and the empty cavity. Here, clearly, is absorption from the gas phase at work, for the cavity pressure remains substantially less than for the empty cavity. For the case of Pd-black, there is no pressure rise for about 18 min, then it abruptly assumes the same rate of rise as the empty cavity. Here is the combination of surface migration, spillover, at work, in addition to the very large surface area. The pressure is always less than for the other conditions, indicating that a larger volume of gas has been absorbed. One might assume this is because more mass of Pd-black than filings can be put in the cavity. However, the pressure difference is consistently 1.5 atm, suggesting that more than a mass difference (between filings and Pd-black) is at work. Now in both cases, the cavity is packed -- perhaps not rammed, but not loose either. Incoming gas diffuses through this powder and viscous flow phenomena will be present (viscous flow of air through a pore is a very strong function of the diameter, as I recall). We don't know the path length between inlet and outlet in this case, but presumably they are at the same end of the cavity, with a few mm separating them. Deuterium will diffuse through the packed filings, perhaps coating the surface and entering the lattice, gradually reaching an equilibrium with the incoming gas. This corresponds to Kirk's expectations. But with the Pd-black, the pores for gas diffusion will be much smaller, and one would expect still slower response -- the gas pressure would stay higher earlier. This isn't what happens. It goes low instantly and stays low until saturation is reached, then abruptly saturates and the pressure rise matches that of the empty capsule. This behavior is due to surface migration, or 'spillover'. Entering D2 molecules apparently dissociate into D+ and rapidly migrate over the connecting surfaces as claimed by A&Z. A&Z do state that this process rapidly brings the D+ concentration in the Pd-black into equilibrium with the concentration in the capsule walls, by virtue of surface migration going both ways, not necessarily via the gas phase, although that also occurs. This is also as Kirk expects. Thus it is possible for D+ to cover the Pd-black by surface migration 'spillover' and to then enter the lattice via "intercalation or lattice imperfection". This route does not involve going in and out of the gas phase. Since it is possible for D+ to get from the capsule shell into a Pd-black particle by a route less energetic than escaping the surface as D2 gas, there is a energetic preference for loading the lattice. Therefore, one could expect that the DS cathode would achieve substantial loading easily in the Pd-black, as A&Z maintain. Loading/deloading equilibrium will eventually be manifested, as Kirk maintains, but there is a D+ > D2 energy gradient which will favor loading of the lattice to a level perhaps higher that D/Pd = 0.65. Turning now to a detailed response to your post: > Mike wrote: > > "The A&Z data clearly indicate that the Pd black changes the way > the cathode pressure behaves, and it is a function of the material and > the particle size, which is consistent with the spillover phenomenon." > > He also went into a lot of speculative discussion prior to that > statement. Unfortunately, that discussion is either untestable or > irrelevant. Let me summarize the A&Z case as I see it: > They claim CF in a DS-cathode Yes, and show evidence for it. > (implying that plain Pd-black won't do it.) No, you misread the papers. They see CF as a 'surface' effect and solid cathodes with lots of problems, so they go to the maximum surface, Pd-black, but have to put it in something to make contact in solution. They had arrived at that structure from other experiments with fusion when the F&P announcement was made, and they shifted direction. > They claim mechanisms for achieving fusion inside their Pd > black. They show evidence that they interpret as supporting their > claims. > > As Dick Blue has noted, their fusion-inducing mechanisms are unusual > and subject to solid criticisms based on 'establishment' physics. True. The data are unusual, and the proposed mechanisms are targets for Dick's "solid criticism", but theoretical criticism does not make experimental results go away. Theory always yields to experimental evidence, and Dick has not offered a mundane explanation for the experimental evidence, to my knowledge. . > I have pointed out that their chemical mechanisms do not support their > subsequent conclusion of a loading in the Pd-black exceeding that of > the cathode wall material. I don't think they assert this directly, but I think it may be so by some measure. See my opening comments above. > I have also questioned enough aspects of > their direct evidence (data) to make the blanket acceptance of it > impossible for me. I had hoped I had described my misgivings well > enough to have illustrated that to the readers of these exchanges, > but apparently not so. It seems the misgivings were based on an expectation that the A&Z DS structure is of no special merit, and the misreading of 1994(E) Fig 6(B) as noted above. > Mike spends a good bit of space in discussing the pressure buildup > rates in the DS-cathode. I now direct your attention to Figure 7A in > the 1997 HTS A&Z paper. Using a ruler and a drawing triangle, it is > easy to see that the rate of pressure rise is the same for all cases > shown, and I measure it as 7 atm/ 21 hrs., or .333 atm/hr. (quite a > bit below those listed by Mike BTW). There are different cathodes in different experiments. It can be a bit perplexing, but the papers, especially 1997 HTS, are not tutorial documents. Nor is it documentation of characterization tests. > The empty cathode has no > 'incubation period', the smallest particles have a 15 hr. period > (count the dots on the x axis, 1 per hr it seems). On the scale plotted, an incubation period of 0.8 hr (reported for another instance) would hardly be seen. > You may recall I pointed out a unit discrepancy between the '97 and > '94 papers. This is in error. See my opening comment above. > If the units on the x axis of the '97 paper's figure are > minutes instead of hours, the rate of rise is now .333 atm/min or 20 > atm/hr. This has become irrelevant speculation. > Still quite different, but using 'hours' caused some really > ridiculous numbers to pop out of the following calculations. But the units on the X axis are hours, period. > A&Z do mention that they use both 3 and 5 gram samples of Pd black in > the caption of Figure 8. Pd's atomic weight is 106.4 grams/mole (or > 106.4 mgrams/mmole), and I have contended that a pressure rise will > not be observed until the alpha-beta phase transition is complete > which occurs at about D/Pd ratio of 0.65. For my information, could you define the alpha and beta phases? Is there a change in the configuration of the Pd atoms in the (face centered lattice?) or the distribution of D+ within the lattice sites? What is the gamma phase I have seen reference to? > 5 grams represents about 47 > mmoles of Pd, and .65 loading ratio implies 30.55 mmoles of D, or 15.3 > mmoles of D2 absorbed. > In a 1 cc volume at 50C, that amount of > gaseous D2 would produce 404.8 atmospheres of pressure! (You now see > the magic of metal hydrides, they take up tremendous equivalent > pressures of hydrogen and pack it into a very small volume.) Amen! I have seen references to a plastic which has a hydrogen absorption capacity comparable to the metal hydrides, with considerably less weight and cost. There may be hope for hydrogen-powered vehicles yet. Kirk implies reciprocity here. 15.3 mmoles produces ~405 atm. pressure as gas; if the 1 cc is pressurized to that level with D2, it will be absorbed, but he does not indicate how fast. Biberien has indicated that absorption is as D or D+, and exothermic process (cigarette lighters?) In Fig 2 of 1994(E), a pronounced temperature rise is seen in the ***DS-Vessel*** when packed with Pd-black and D2 is introduced, due to a chemical reaction. > Using > the 20 atm/hr loading rate, that calculates to 20.2 hours > 'incubation', where the pressure will remain at the plateau level of > .02-.03 atm. (The time is 12.1 hrs. for the 3 gram sample.) (If these > numbers seem ridiculous to you, the reason the pressures I calculate > are so large is that the volume is so small! If the same 5 gr. Pd > were exposed to D2 in a 500cc volume, which is typical in gas loading > experiments, it would cause a pressure drop of less than 1 atm.) >This seems very realistic, and now, WE SEE THAT IF WE ASSUME 'MINUTES' > WE ARE CLOSE TO AGREEING WITH THE REAL DATA, WHERE THE SMALLEST > PARTICLE SIZE MATERIAL (WHICH HAS THE LARGEST PACKED MASS) HAS A 15 > HOUR TIME PERIOD BEFORE REGISTERING A PRESSURE RISE. So at 4.04 > hours/gram, that implies the mass in that DS-cathode was about 3.7 > grams. ****Wait a "minute". Second error!!**** Kirk just (arbitrarily) changed the time scale factor of Fig 7 to minutes, now he cites the incubation time delay for 400 nm Pd-black as 15 hours. He is changing the time scale in mid-calculation. He can't have it both ways. His reasoning has just imploded. Further, the assumption of 'minutes' is invalid from the beginning. > So, what evidence do A&Z offer to convince me that their Pd black is > excessively loaded? See my introductory remarks. A&Z consider CF to be a "surface" effect, but don't define how thick a "surface" might be. Their candidate for the reaction mechanism requires a lattice substantially filled with deuterons in a nano-region. Such concentrations could be achieved near a surface. For 40 nm Pd-black, it is practically all surface!! > Not much, mostly just hand-waving about how the > spillover effect is supposed to work. If their contention were true, > the pressure should have stayed low for a much longer time. I'm not sure who is doing the hand-waving here. See my opening discussion. Fig 6(B) of 1994(E) shows clear evidence of spillover at work, as well as measurements with DS cathodes. In this context 1994(E) Fig A1 and A2 are of great interest. These show, from point A to B, that the interior and exterior capsule temperatures are the same for ~275 hours of incubation time the first time a capsule is used. After that, the turn-on time is greatly reduced. Now ~275 hours of incubation time before 'ignition' is much greater than the 'incubation time' required to distribute D+ over the Pd-black surface and to see a pressure rise in the capsule as we have discussed. What happens in that time, and why it takes so long, is not said. But it is an important clue to something which is outside the scope of this discussion. > How long? > Depends on what the loading level is. Mike used .85, so that is > .85/.65 times more D, and thus that is 15*.85/.65 = 19.6 hours. If > D/Pd = 1, then we have 23 hours. If the sample size is larger than > 3.71 grams we also have a longer time on the baseline. If the sample > size is smaller, say 3 grams, we would predict an 'incubation period' > of 12.1 hours. Remember I suggested larger particle size meant less > mass in the cathode? And this is all without invoking any of the > known cleanliness/activation complications that normally slow down > loading of fresh hydride materials. I used 0.85, a value used based on a variety of solid-cathode CF experiments. the calculations which follow are now largely irrelevant in the argument about the efficacy of Pd-black, for the time for surface saturation and pressure rise is much, much greater. > My point for those who missed it is: The A&Z pressure-time data are > completely understandable from a conventional viewpoint. See my opening remarks. > No significant evidence is offered to support their contention that the > Pd black loads to a different level than the cathode walls. They state that an equilibrium is achieved by the surface migration 'spillover' route, not by gas phase. This is discussed in 1994(J), p10, next-to-last paragraph. "...And quickly, in a short while, the inner cathode concentration of Deuterium reaches close to Th. the outer cathode concentration d*." > Thus, the > A&Z configuration is just the same as a usual F&P cathode with a lot > of internal void space (which Storms says is very bad for CF of > course). Not quite, not quite. The capsules are definitely vacuum packed, and the actual void space minimal. It is not explicitly stated, but reasonable that the capsule cavities are dimensioned to sustain packing of whatever quantity of Pd-black is chosen; perhaps this is adjusted by the dimensions of the end plug. The Storms comment is irrelevant here. The DS cathode is not a "usual" F&P cathode, even though it uses the same chemistry. But the evidence in the papers, A&Z achieved earlier, stronger, and more robust excess heat production than most other researchers in the field. The DS structure avoids some of the known pitfalls in the solid cathodes. -------------- I think we can conclude the discussion of spillover and incubation here. I want again to thank Kirk for his patience in discussing this with me, for I have gained and I think our area of disagreement is now quite small. -------------- > Mike also wrote: > > "When it comes to the QMS data, the surface contaminants yield a rich > burst of material as they are initially baked off in the first few > minutes, before the gases trapped within the Pd-black crystals > emerge." > > This was his only reference to the QMS work in this note, but he did > challenge me in another one. Let me state that I have reexamined the > 'limited QMS' data, and I have decided I could interpret Fig. 17 > differently, but it would also be unfavorable to A&Z. So to save > space, I will simply say I don't think the QMS data are conclusive, > particularly when you realize the issue is NOT "Is 3-He and 4-He > present?" but IS "Where do the detected 3-He and 4-He come from?" > That is an order of magnitude more difficult problem to address, and > A&Z don't do that well. They offer an explanation, the CF reactions. It is the effort to find alternatives that becomes increasingly difficult. You give A&Z demerits for not finding a mundane explanation for the He isotopes when the 1997 HTS paper goes to great lengths to discuss possible contaminants and means taken to exclude them. This reminds me of Dick Blue's contention that there are always alternative hypotheses, without stating what these are, other than attempts to discredit the evidence detail by detail. The issue of Fig 17 of 1997 HTS is more important, and I am interested in Kirk's new interpretation of it. > > 'Skeptics' like me tend to get labeled by CF proponents. Those people > say that 'us skeptics' have different sets of standards for CF work. > (Normally we are supposed to be tougher on CF, extending to displaying > pathological behavior.) I completely disagree. In our separate email > communication, Mike and I have agreed that multiple sets of data > pointing the same way mutually support one another and make for a > firmer conclusion. BUT, all those sets of data must be acceptable. Here rises the selection of data to define the universe of discourse, which is the hidden arbitrary in a seemingly rational process. I have seen one or two blemishes, even when explained and corrected, used to summarily reject a body of work. To say ALL is to demand impeccable work in all places. The sense of our agreement was that the peripheral, but commonly-pointing data could be of less quality, provided they point in the same direction. Now Kirk has upped the requirements for the supporting data. > If one study or set is clearly bogus, what rational person would use > it in their defense? So the question is always, does the data support > the conclusions as presented? If Kirk is referring to his analysis of Fig 7 above, he should reconsider what is "bogus". This is why I have been engaging Kirk in a detailed discussion of the QMS data. > I think the feeling that CF gets unfair treatment comes from people > who don't understand that the 'multiple sets reinforcing each other' > concept is double-edged. In a typical R&D paper, the authors present > the 'establishment view' (EV) and then their results, and they usually > then proceed to show how their results fit with the 'EV'. Sometimes > they will actually have discovered something new and unique, and they > will spend a proportionate amount of time on that aspect. The EV is > supposed to be established via critical review of the _prior_ > publications from which the EV is developed coupled with replication > by others, and thus represents the accumulation of other scientist's > work. > > When an author invokes similarity to the 'EV', because of the > 'multiple...' concept, he or she gains a measure of believability, > i.e., "my work is essentially the same as X's." In the CF case > however, the precedents and accumulated experience of the scientific > community point _away_ from the desired conclusion, so now the authors > receive the back edge of the 'multiple...' effect. They now not only > have to present what normally would be considered adequate evidence > when similarity could safely be invoked, they also have to effectively > discredit prior work that established the antagonistic 'EV' or show > clearly how the 'EV' is not applicable. This will usually require recourse to theory, which is unfortunately unavailable, and everyone knows it. Inventive critics can go into denial, blocking the added effort necessary to reconcile what is known with what is new. > So are the standards different? Superficially perhaps, but only > because the person making that judgment refuses to recognize that > precedents establish the norm. Anomalies go against the norm, and > thus have to be defended more vigorously because acceptance cannot be > gained by invoking similarity to prior accepted work. > That's just a fact of scientific life. Yes, it is, unfortunately. Thus entrepreneurs will not wait for "scientific" acceptance, which may lag long behind the accomplishment of a commercially feasible process. To use a tired but true example, the Wright brothers flew in the face of academic denial. > > In fact is it is easy to present a paper that presents a very good set > of data, and then proceed to a 'revolutionary' conclusion based on it. > As soon as an 'EV'-compliant explanation is proposed however, the > believability of the conclusion is _more_ suspect than one that might > have been a minor modification to the 'EV'. > > I started this note off by restating the A&Z basic conclusions in an > abstract form. My examination of their data had led me to consider > other more common explanations, and to decide that inadequate evidence > was presented to convince me that they have detected a true anomaly. > Until such evidence is presented, I will remain in the conservative > group that suspects CF is an accumulation of experimental errors and > unrecognized (or unacknowledged) chemistry. > > Kirk Shanahan {{My opinions...noone else's}} I think the above is a very cogent essay on the nature of scientific discourse. The custom of citing received opinion and then defining the relationship of the new contribution serves well in the orderly accumulation of knowledge. It is an age-hallowed tradition. The CF/LENR/LENT arena is so charged with emotional and institutional associations that all the problems are thrown into high relief. I thank Krik for his extended and civil dialogue on this matter as we retreat to our respective corners. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 20:32:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA30062; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:22:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:22:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213231808.006b9854 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:18:08 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Brian Rickens In-Reply-To: <3f472e30.34e45c4e aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qqWoA.0.cL7.ImHvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank: Sorry to hear about this. If the poor fellow was unable to SPEAK, that is THE important sign to consider giving the correct procedure which in this case may have been the relatively simple Heimlich manoever, and which via the production of a transient large intrathoracic pressure might have expelled the foreign object. Dr. Mitchell Swartz ================================================================= At 09:44 AM 2/13/98 EST, you wrote: > > One Saturday Feb 7 I and Mr Denntkd (on this address list) > went out to a local Night Club Yesterday's > party. I was dancing with a friend to my favorite oldies band > Still Water. About 4 feet in front of my a man, Brian Rickens, > fell on the dance floor. My response was to go up to him and > say, "Hey You!" At first, I thought he was going to get up. I then saw > that he looked real bad, he was shaking and his eyes were rolled up. > I thought he was having a seizure. More people quickly > congregated around Mr. Rickens. The band stopped and said, "May > we have the house lights Please!" A very attractive young lady, > Jenette, ran over and started administering CPR. She motioned > for her boy friend to help. (I find out later that they had a > fight, She was angry because he would not help, and he was angry > because he didn't want her pressing her mouth against Mr. > Rickens.) A fireman in the crowd quickly came over to help > Jenette. The ambulance arrived within a few minutes. They gave > Brian, right where he fell, two big shots, zaped him with a > zapper while staying, "Clear!", and placed him on squeeze > ventilator. This went on for about 20 minutes. Then they > carted Mr Rickens out. I was told, "He is dead!" Brian Rickens > age 38, security guard, single, degree in accounting, and gulf > prow, gone. I later find out that the autopsy revealed that > Brian had choked on a chicken bone. No-one knew this, including > myself. I never gave this much thought but we should all know the > universal symbol for choking. Grab yourself by the neck or grab > someone near by the neck to get their attention. This may have saved >Brian's > life. > > > Frank Znidarsic >  > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 20:38:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28444; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E51CBF.6DF3 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:25:35 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> <34E4BEDB.5E52@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UgkuT1.0.Hy6.xpHvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > (snip) > The induced magnetic field (dipole field) of the passing > electron decreases as the distance cubed. Robert, I was reviewing some aspects of the Biot-Savart law in regard to this discussion. First, in Richard Becker's "Electromagnetic Fields and Interactions" Becker confirms that the magnetic field of a charged particle in motion (uniform motion, much less than c) looks just like the field set up by the differential current element in the differential form of the Biot law. This being the case, the NON-VECTOR form of the law in my physics book is given as: dB = k' * (i * dl) * sin(theta) / r^2 where db is the differential element of B at a point P a distance r from dl along a line from dl to P at an angle theta to the flow line of i. Now, the group (i * dl) can be thought of as a charge moving at some velocity (i.e., coulombs * meters/sec). (k' is a constant to suit your units) My point is, it would appear that the B field around the charge is NOT a dipole - rather a field of circular lines of flux with B a function of 1/r^2 rather than 1/r^3. I notice that the VECTOR form of the law involves the quotient R/r^3 where R is the VECTOR from dl to P. Notice that the VECTOR R may be written as r*e_r where r is the scalar length of r and e_r is a unit vector in its direction. So, the result of (r * e_r)/r^3 is e_r/r^2 which agrees with the non-vector form. To conclude this note, it seems that the magnetic field of a slowly moving charge is a field of circular lines of flux, maximum in a plane perpendicular to the velocity and containing the charge. the field is zero on the velocity vector in front of and behind the charge. The intensity seems to drop as 1/r^2 with distance from the velocity vector - not 1/r^3 as for a dipole! If this right, it is fascinating to me! I had not realized this! Please check this - anyone - consider as part of Stenger's continuing education. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 20:41:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28797; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:29:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:29:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213232203.006b9854 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:22:03 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980123120727.00bb69f0 spectre.mitre.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19971222072511.006c5c14 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sbo_n.0.q17.usHvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:07 PM 1/23/98 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >>>> At 07:25 AM 12/22/97 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: If these virtual energies exist, they are vanishingly small and have not been proven to account for any of the serious much larger-magnitude phenomena discussed in vortex, or s.p.f., or involved in cold fusion, photoelectricity, etc. Unlike cold fusion where energy arises from the contraction of an excited ash-nucleus to its lowest energy level, and unlike photoelectricity where the energy arises from the field energies in the impinging photons, it remains unclear where the purported ZPE(vacuum) comes from. Uh, do you exist? The nuclear binding energy (strong force) that holds the nucleii of all atoms other than hydrogen together is carried by pi mesons (pions). But there are no pions in the nucleus, so how does the strong force get carried? It is carried by the virtual pions created by the quantum foam. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle gives us the distance that these virtual pions can travel, and that determines the maxiumum size of a nucleus. The energy density of the vacuum, on the other hand, determines how many virtual pions are created in a given area, and therefore the strength of the strong force. (Hint, look at the name of the force. ;-) So the vacuum energy is real, or you wouldn't be here. However, the vacuum energy can't be easily used, because it is the minimum level of energy possible in empty space. If you can extract this energy, you basically are destroying space. (The Casmir effect, or any matter for that matter, does just that. The properties of empty space are changed by the presence of matter. If you want to think of these distortions as gravity, there are theories that do just that...) <<<<<<<< Robert: Over the size of an atom, yes, special relativity and the uncertainty principle will hold as described. But when claims are invoked over interplanetary distances -- or other very large macroscopic distance -- to purportedly balance and "hold up" an energy level of a hydrogen atom, then based upon simple causality (special relativity) it seems this has been needlessly pushed back to a Ptolemic system of "wheels within wheels". Mitchell Swartz < From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 21:00:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00122; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:31:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:31:36 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213232410.006bb1dc world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:24:10 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Hansen, Shanahan on Arata artifacts - Questions on "corroding thermocouple" Cc: Lee HANSEN , barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec snip.net, 76570.2247@compuserve.com, mica@world.std.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, aki.@ix.netcom.com, 72240.1256 compuserve.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, simonb post.queensu.ca, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, db@kemi.aau.dk, rbrtbass pahrump.com, wireless@amigo.net, Rich Murray In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9NJJD.0.e1.cuHvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: update on purported role of corroded thermocouple: At 09:21 AM 1/20/98 -0700, Lee Hansen wrote in response to the following: > Regarding the purported corroding thermocouple yielding an Arata-like >effect in Kyoto: > > Exactly which thermocouple corroded yielding an effect similar to >the Arata work? (type (e.g. "E", "K", custom, make, material, conditions) > > Exactly which/whose data from Kyoto is suspect from said >corroding thermocouple? > > Is there a published paper, or other documentation, >of this claim regarding the not yet defined work/paper? Lee HANSEN : >When I looked up the reference it was Osaka and not Kyoto, sorry. The >reference is Takahashi, et al. , Anomalous Excess Heat by D2O/Pd Cell >under L-H Mode Electrolysis, page 79 in Frontiers of Cold Fusion, H. >Ikegami, editor, 1993. (Proceedings of the Nagoya Conference). >Immediately after the conference, Steve Jones and I visited the lab in >Osaka and examined their "calorimeter". It is not reported in their paper >anywhere, but the thermocouple used to obtain the "positive" data >reported failed shortly after the experiment because the junction >corroded completely and the wires parted. No effort was made to check >the (apparent) several degree temperature rise with a second >thermometer of any kind. The corroded thermocouple was replaced with >a thermocouple in a glass sheath and no further "positive" results have >been obtained. Although Takahashi et al. have never retracted the >original data, my conclusion was that the data were simply a spurious >signal caused by corrosion of the thermocouple and there was thus >never any excess heat. >Lee Hansen > > Thank you for beginning to clarify this. A few of the various Dr. Takahashi's papers are listed below, and they appear to extend over several years. Which Takahashi was this to whom you refer? Was he associated with any of those papers? You did not mention which type of thermocouple corrodes under cf experimental conditions. Could you please comment more on this? Do you have any evidence that said corrosion existed during the measurements? Are you claiming that all his work is void in your opinion because of your finding and beliefs? BTW, has Dr. Takahashi agreed with you? Mitchell Swartz ------------------------------------------------------------- ==== partial references of Drs. Takahashi to follow, subset from Prof Britz's bibliography: ===================================================== Takahashi A, Iida T, Maekawa F, Sugimoto H, Yoshida S; Fusion Technol. 19 (1991) 380. "Windows of cold nuclear fusion and pulsed electrolysis experiments". ** A hypothetical excitation-screening model is proposed as a possible mechanism for nuclear heating, and some experiments to confirm it, are reported. The model rules out cold fusion under stationary conditions, so nonstationary conditions are examined as well. Pd is unusual with its 10 valence electrons. An incoming deuteron will be surrounded by many free electrons, resulting in strong screening. As more and more d comes in, the probablity of a d-d meeting increases, while electron screening decreases. At a certain loading, the fusion rate will be at a maximum. At full charging, screening is very weak; no more fusion. This might explain some of the observed results. Some rough estimations using the excitation model indicate the feasibility of observed fusion rates. An experiment using biased pulsed electrolysis current was then run, involving two different neutron detectors (a Bonner (3)He thermal neutron detector, and a NE-213 one) and simple cell temperature measurement. No definite emissions were detected, although there were some slight increases over the background. Nevertheless, the authors say that cold fusion exists, and encourage further work, including that with "crazy ideas". Dec-89/Mar-91 # Takahashi A, Iida T, Miyamaru H, Fukuhara M; Fusion Technol. 27 (1995) 71. "Multibody fusion model to explain experimental results". ** Theory, multibody, res+ The authors address the main problems posed by experimental evidence of CNF: weak neutron emission; some proton emission; some tritium but not sufficient to match excess heat; high levels of 4He, in line with excess heat; high levels of excess heat. These are linked, and may be explained by clusters of 2, 3 or 4 deuterons, fusing as such and leading to excited 4He, 5Li, 6Li, 7Be, etc. Such clusters would have enhanced fusion cross sections. The paper then discusses expected decay channels at length. Finally, some experimental support is mentioned. The clusters are thought to form by transients acting on deuterons getting close to each other at tetra- and octahedral sites in highly loaded PdDx. Sep-93/Jan-95 # Takahashi A, Iida T, Takeuchi T, Mega A; Int. J. Appl. Electromagn. Mater. 3 (1992) 221. "Excess heat and nuclear products by D2O/Pd electrolysis and multibody fusion". ** A detailed description of a series of electrolysis experiments, in which both cell temperature and neutron emission were monitored, cell temp. by a single thermistor between the cathode and a cooling coil, and neutrons by an method described elsewhere. The cathodes were Pd plates, 25*25 mm**2 by 1 mm thick, mounted between two polyethylene insulators, which was wound with the Pt anode at a pitch of 5 mm. This allowed a loading of close to 1, believe the authors. The cell temperature (mixing) time constant was measured at about 15 min, and a rough calibration of power output vs cell temperature was made. The applied (controlled) current was either ramped or pulsed at around 1A/cm**2, for long periods, with topping up of D2O every 4-8 days. Several anomalous excess heat events were observed, in one instance an accumulated excess of 160 MJ over a week. Some neutron events were seen, but correlated somewhat negatively with excess heat events. Neutron flux was generally higher for high current, however. Also, neutron flux remained low for 1-2 days after one D2O topping up. The authors present their theory to explain the dearth of neutrons. At high loadings, 3-body and 4-body fusions might take place, some producing no neutrons or tritons, but alpha particles instead. May-92/? # Takahashi A; J. Nucl. Sci. Technol. 26 (1989) 558. "Opening possibility of deuteron-catalyzed cascade fusion channel in PdD under D2O electrolysis". ** Suggests that under the conditions of cold fusion in PdD, the predominant reactions would be d+d-->(4)He* and (4)He*+d-->(6)Li*-->(4)He+d+23.8MeV. This cascade would explain the FPH results, giving fusion rates of up to 1E-13 f/s per D atom. April-17-89/May-89 # Takahashi A, Takeuchi T, Iida T, Watanabe M; J. Nucl. Sci. Technol. 27 (1990) 663. "Emission of 2.45 MeV and higher energy neutrons from D2O-Pd cell under biased-pulse electrolysis". ** The authors update an earlier report, submitted to Fusion Technol., of positive cold fusion results; here, they obtained neutron emissions at 2.45 MeV and at higher energies 3-7 MeV, from biased-pulse electrolysis of 0.2-0.4 M LiOD in D2O, with a Pd cathode. Biased-pulse means alternating higher with lower current densities, e.g. 0.8A with 0.5A at about 2 cm**2, each level for a couple of minutes or so. Light irradiation simultaneous with either the high- or the low-level currents was also tried. Water temperature was measured with a thermocouple, neutrons by a cross-checking system of a (3)He with a NE213 detector, and tritium in aliquots taken from the electrolyte (to be reported later). The emissions at higher energies cannot be explained by hitherto known fusion reactions. May-90/Jul-90 # Takahashi A; Oyo Butsuri 62 (1993) 707 (In Japanese). "Production of neutron, tritium and excess heat". ** Chemical Abstracts (119:280105) calls this a review but it is limited in this respect, with only 11 refs. largely to Japanese work. Storms. The figures are taken from Takahashi's own work, and show neutron counts going up with electrolysis current, a neutron peak at 2.5 MeV, a figure with a large number of points showing excess heat increasing with D/Pd loading. Mar-93/? # Takahashi A; Kaku Yugo Kenkyu 68(4) (1992) 360 (in Japanese, English abstr.). "Cold fusion research: Recent progress". ** Review of three years' accumulated cold fusion work, observing weak neutron emission, tritium generation with anomalous n/t ratios, charged particle emission with anomalies, (4)He generation, excess heat, and anomalous D/Pd loading. Some of these suggest a nuclear process, but the relationship between excess heat and nuclear products is not yet clear. 14 refs. Jul-92/? # Takahashi A; Koon Gakkaishi 19(5) (1993) 179 (in Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 120:87961 (1993). ** CA: "A review with 11 refs. is presented with the emphasis on the important exptl. results and theor. model". The review seems to be up to date to the symposium ICCF3, and shows the familiar graphs of the dependence of excess heat on the D/Pd loading and on current density, mentiosn surface layers, radiation measurements, He detection. # Takahashi A; Suiso Enerugi Shisutemu 21 (1996) 39 (in Japanese, Eng. abstr.). "Recent results and activities on the new hydrogen energy ("cold fusion")". ** Sm. review. This is a smallish roundup with only 11 references, most of them to conference proceedings. From the abstract it is clear that the author believes that CNF has been demonstrated, excess heat found but without fusion taking place; and that some unconfirmed reports claim helium-4 and should be repeated. The key is to pin down the nuclear or chemical origin of excess heat. # Takahashi H; J. Fusion Energy 9 (1991) 441. "Dynamical screening of potential by mobile deuteron and fusion rate of accelerated deuteron in PdDx". ** Like the Tajima et al work, this paper stresses that deuterons under motion are better than stationary d's. In fact, d-d screening is not only done by electrons but by moving deuterons as well. Takahashi develops his previous model further and finds that, for accelerated deuterons, fusion might occur at observed rates. The acceleration might be provided by the joint movement of groups of deuterons, creating a sort of whip, or surfing, effect. ?/Dec-90 # Takahashi Y; Kagaku Kogaku 53 (1989) 608. (In Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 111:122093 (1989). "Present status and future problems of cold nuclear fusion" ** Chem. Abstr. says "Discussion with 3 references". # Takahashi Y; Gendai Kagaku 223 (1989) 48 (in Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 111:220288 (1989). "Room temperature nuclear fusion". ** Review, with no references (huh?) of the FPH and Jones+ experiments, as well as the non-electrochemical Italian work. # Takahashi Y; Kagaku (Kyoto) 45 (1990) 54. (In Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 112:146653 (1990). "After effects of the cold nuclear fusion experiments". ** A survey of the papers following those of FPH and Jones+ (10 references). No paper reports the excess heat of FPH although some do report some neutrons or protons. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 22:49:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15021; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:45:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:45:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E53BF5.6DFC skylink.net> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:38:45 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> <34E4BEDB.5E52@skylink.net> <34E51CBF.6DF3@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"itrWA.0.bg3.SsJvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > The intensity seems to drop as 1/r^2 with distance from the velocity > vector - not 1/r^3 as for a dipole! > If this right, it is fascinating to me! I had not realized this! > Please check this - anyone - consider as part of Stenger's continuing > education. Frank, I don't know about your continuing education, but you do seem to find mistakes right quick. Yes, the magnetic field of a moving charge is the same as the field of an isolated current element -- not a dipole field. The field drops off as one over r-squared, and is strongest in the direction perpendicular to motion and declines to zero as you angle toward the direction of motion. Still it doesn't change the earlier argument that this field can not possibly impart enough momentum to the coil to account for the change in EM momentum. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 13 23:13:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26977; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:10:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:10:23 -0800 Message-Id: <199802140711.VAA19052 ranger.t-link.net> From: "Alastair Couper" Organization: Aquarian Electronics To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:06:41 +10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Hyde's invention Reply-to: aquarius t-link.net Priority: normal Resent-Message-ID: <"EVCnA3.0.Mb6.TDKvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings Greg, Hal, et. al., I too attempted a replication of the Hyde device, and was not able to see anything interesting as a result. It did certainly make for some excellent whining sounds, however. In correspondence with Moray King, it seemed as though the most important part of the device was the selection of the diodes in the output circuit. Whenever I read a patent, I always try to notice that aspect of the device which is described least, or glossed over almost entirely, as this is what is generally the most revolutionary part, and is what the author is trying to keep hidden. In the Hyde patent, this aspect was the exact nature of the diodes used. Moray said that these were cheap, off the shelf diodes. The output circuit needs to be understood not from an AC, lowfrequency rectification model, bu moret from a high frequency, transmission line point of viewl. The claim was made that the output pulses from the charge pump (which is fairly conventional, but pushed to its rpm limit) are on the order of pico-coulombs, but at a many kilovolt potential. There is a minimum pulse energy used in rating the capacity of typical diodes for pulse service. Below this level, the diode will be filling its barrier region but won't conduct, regardless of the potential of the source. One would guess that the diodes used by Hyde (assuming he isn't pulling our legs) are of a comparatively low voltage rating, but are not damaged by the pulses due to their low total energy. Apparently this high voltage pulse is processed in the silicon of the diodes in a different manner than simple rectifier. Maybe he is using something off the wall, like tunnel diodes? The crux of the matter, as Moray mentioned, was that the high voltage pulses on the stator plates requires great care in even being measured, much less used. And that was where my interest gave out. Also, I had no intention of dealing with anything that spun at 6000 rpm. Silence is golden, after all. Regards, Alastair Couper aquarius t-link.net Aquarian Electronics Maui,Hawaii http://www.t-link.net/~aquarius/aquarian.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 00:01:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21376; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:58:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:58:51 -0800 (PST) From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <34E63001.54DD pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:00:01 +0000 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> <34E4BEDB.5E52@skylink.net> <34E51CBF.6DF3@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yQLGL.0.wD5.wwKvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I think that you must use the quantum approach with A before you have any of the meat of interest to this group. This means QED,etc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 08:11:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26501; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:04:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:04:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E5BFD2.7F3B interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:01:22 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> <34E4BEDB.5E52@skylink.net> <34E51CBF.6DF3@interlaced.net> <34E63001.54DD@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jf7lx1.0.wT6.32Svq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ehammond pacbell.net wrote: > > I think that you must use the quantum approach with A before you have > any of the meat of interest to this group. This means QED,etc. I'm sure this is right. But, I'm learning a lot about clasical EM just from this "elbow rubbing". Is "A" a real thing or just a mathematical fiction? Can't all the basic clasical EM equations be written in terms of E and H (or B), without using A? The energy at a space point of steady magnetic induction is proportional to B^2. Saying that the energy at the point is (curl A)^2 isn't quite enough, is it? The electric scalar potential inside the 1 million-volt van de graff terminal is (neglect the charging operation - belts, etc.) 1 million volts, but the E is zero. The electrostatic energy density (it's mass as it were) of a space element (assume vacuum) inside the terminal is zero, isn't it? As long as we are isolated within the metal sphere, the potential means nothing to us. Only when we carry a charge over a long path of integration from outside to inside the sphere does the 1-million volt potential mean anything to us. My question this time is, does "A" have any real meaning at a point in space, or is it a mathematical "fiction" defined by B = curl A? Does "A" exert a force on anything or is it "B"? Does "V" exert a force on a charge or is it "E"? Even if B is zero in a space element, couldn't "A" have any arbitrary value there if we properly chose the external environment? Maybe what I'm asking is, can a "path function" ever exert a force, or does it take a "point function" to do the job? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 08:21:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27583; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:17:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:17:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E5C34A.3D99 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:16:10 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> <34E4BEDB.5E52@skylink.net> <34E51CBF.6DF3@interlaced.net> <34E53BF5.6DFC@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Avf_e3.0.tk6.3ESvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > Yes, the magnetic field of a moving charge is > the same as the field of an isolated current element -- not a dipole > field. The field drops off as one over r-squared, and is strongest in > the direction perpendicular to motion and declines to zero as you angle > toward the direction of motion. Still it doesn't change the earlier > argument that this field can not possibly impart enough momentum to > the coil to account for the change in EM momentum. > OK, Robert, I'm really not knowledgeable of the A-B effect or QED enough to comment in detail, but it still seems to me that a charge passing thru the hole of a toroid wound with lossy "real" windings would cause a current pulse in the windings and thus give up energy and momentum to the coil. If the toroid were coated with a superconductor it seems the charge would be deflected from its path. Since momentum is a vector quantity, wouldn't this be a momentum change? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 08:49:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA31113; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:44:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:44:33 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD3935.4AE7D840 pm3-157.gpt.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: ZPE Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:42:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA31096 Resent-Message-ID: <"PB9r-3.0.3c7.ldSvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings: I've been reading posts that claim either: 1. Zero Point energy doesn't exist, 2. Zero point energy is so small that tapping it destroys space, OR 3. Zero point energy is infinite at all places. My views on this are that no.1 has been disproven; Steve Lamoreaux detected it using a casimir chamber. No. 2 has been disproven; If tapping ZPE destroys space, then the casimir chamber would likely be destroyed completely, and a host of very observable effects would be observed. (bad effects, most likely) No. 3 I'm skeptical about. I don't see how anything can be infinite. But I could be wrong. The question I ask myself is: Do we want to tap ZPE? I constantly worry about the possible military uses of it, or the prospect of destabilizing the vacuum if it is used wrong. In short, be careful. Kyle Randall Mcallister Email: stk sunherald.infi.net Phone: 228-875-0629 Fax: 228-872-5837 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 10:11:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09220; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:02:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:02:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214125643.01409124 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:56:43 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: ZPE In-Reply-To: <01BD3935.4AE7D840 pm3-157.gpt.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9iXmW.0.yF2.kmTvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:42 AM 2/14/98 -0600, Kyle Randall Mcallister wrote: >I've been reading posts that claim either: > >1. Zero Point energy doesn't exist, >2. Zero point energy is so small that tapping it destroys space, >OR >3. Zero point energy is infinite at all places. > >My views on this are that no.1 has been disproven; Steve Lamoreaux detected it using a casimir chamber. >No. 2 has been disproven; If tapping ZPE destroys space, then the casimir chamber would likely be destroyed completely, and a host of very observable effects would be observed. (bad effects, most likely) >No. 3 I'm skeptical about. I don't see how anything can be infinite. But I could be wrong. > >The question I ask myself is: Do we want to tap ZPE? I constantly worry about the possible military uses of it, or the prospect of destabilizing the vacuum if it is used wrong. In short, be careful. > Worse, there appear to be two zero point energies. One is generally accepted, is very low energy (half vibration), and does not destroy matter, but RESULTS from matter when it forms a lattice capable of sustaining vibrations. The other is disputed except for the tiniest evanescent amount arising from the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, and is solely based upon possibly questionable calculations and the interpretation of the casimir experiment, and the interpretation of other data. I once attempted to separate, and clarify, the two into ZPE(lattice) and ZPE(vacuum). The former is well known in all material science and nuclear physics texts. The latter is defended by dense theoretical arguments which for yourself you should work out thoroughly as to their origin, and the arguments used to claim ZPE(vacuum) exists. If ZPE(vacuum) is real beyond the evanescent miniscule amounts permitted by the uncertainty principle, then it will be confirmed as has ZPE(lattice), cold fusion, and superconductivity. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 10:25:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12977; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:17:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:17:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:17:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hansen, Shanahan on Arata artifacts - Questions on"corroding thermocouple" -Reply (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nXAgZ.0.aA3.M_Tvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message from non-subscriber, see below ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:54:09 -0800 (PST) From: Lee HANSEN To: vortex-l eskimo.com, mica@world.std.com Cc: wireless amigo.net, tchubb@aol.com, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, 76570.2247 compuserve.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rmforall earthlink.net, droege@fnal.gov, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, aki. ix.netcom.com, db@kemi.aau.dk, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, barry math.ucla.edu, miles@nhelab.iae.or.jp, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, simonb post.queensu.ca, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, mikec snip.net, g-miley@uiuc.edu Subject: Re: Hansen, Shanahan on Arata artifacts - Questions on"corroding thermocouple" -Reply >>> Mitchell Swartz 02/13/98 04:24pm >>> update on purported role of corroded thermocouple: At 09:21 AM 1/20/98 -0700, Lee Hansen wrote in response to the following: > Regarding the purported corroding thermocouple yielding an Arata-like >effect in Kyoto: > > Exactly which thermocouple corroded yielding an effect similar to >the Arata work? (type (e.g. "E", "K", custom, make, material, conditions) > > Exactly which/whose data from Kyoto is suspect from said >corroding thermocouple? > > Is there a published paper, or other documentation, >of this claim regarding the not yet defined work/paper? Lee HANSEN : >When I looked up the reference it was Osaka and not Kyoto, sorry. The >reference is Takahashi, et al. , Anomalous Excess Heat by D2O/Pd Cell >under L-H Mode Electrolysis, page 79 in Frontiers of Cold Fusion, H. >Ikegami, editor, 1993. (Proceedings of the Nagoya Conference). >Immediately after the conference, Steve Jones and I visited the lab in >Osaka and examined their "calorimeter". It is not reported in their paper >anywhere, but the thermocouple used to obtain the "positive" data >reported failed shortly after the experiment because the junction >corroded completely and the wires parted. No effort was made to check >the (apparent) several degree temperature rise with a second >thermometer of any kind. The corroded thermocouple was replaced with >a thermocouple in a glass sheath and no further "positive" results have >been obtained. Although Takahashi et al. have never retracted the >original data, my conclusion was that the data were simply a spurious >signal caused by corrosion of the thermocouple and there was thus >never any excess heat. >Lee Hansen > > Thank you for beginning to clarify this. A few of the various Dr. Takahashi's papers are listed below, and they appear to extend over several years. Which Takahashi was this to whom you refer? Was he associated with any of those papers? I do not know, but you could determine that by obtaining the authors affiliations from the papers. You did not mention which type of thermocouple corrodes under cf experimental conditions. Could you please comment more on this? It does not matter what the thermocouple was made of, they are all subject to effects of corrosion and stray currents from electrochemical reactions. Do you have any evidence that said corrosion existed during the measurements? Yes, as I said, the thermocouple junction parted during the experiment. Furthermore, when isolated from the solution, the corrosion apparently stopped. I did not personally observe any of this, it was reported to us during the visit to the lab. Are you claiming that all his work is void in your opinion because of your finding and beliefs? No, only the one report referenced in my reply. It should have been retracted. As for later work, I can only make the judgement that the work reported was done very poorly and reported with an obvious bias. Therefore, in my opinion future work from the same lab must be regarded with suspicion. BTW, has Dr. Takahashi agreed with you? Who or what is BTW? I have not spoken directly with him since our visit. Nor during the visit did we wish to insult him publicly by being too blunt. We also wished to have some time to think about and evaluate what we had seen before we said anything. During the visit, we restricted ourselves to asking questions and obtaining information. Conclusions were drawn later. Like most of the CF "calorimetry" Takahashi's method of heat measurement was very poorly designed, subject to large errors, and never properly calibrated or tested. Lee Hansen Mitchell Swartz ------------------------------------------------------------- ==== partial references of Drs. Takahashi to follow, subset from Prof Britz's bibliography: ===================================================== Takahashi A, Iida T, Maekawa F, Sugimoto H, Yoshida S; Fusion Technol. 19 (1991) 380. "Windows of cold nuclear fusion and pulsed electrolysis experiments". ** A hypothetical excitation-screening model is proposed as a possible mechanism for nuclear heating, and some experiments to confirm it, are reported. The model rules out cold fusion under stationary conditions, so nonstationary conditions are examined as well. Pd is unusual with its 10 valence electrons. An incoming deuteron will be surrounded by many free electrons, resulting in strong screening. As more and more d comes in, the probablity of a d-d meeting increases, while electron screening decreases. At a certain loading, the fusion rate will be at a maximum. At full charging, screening is very weak; no more fusion. This might explain some of the observed results. Some rough estimations using the excitation model indicate the feasibility of observed fusion rates. An experiment using biased pulsed electrolysis current was then run, involving two different neutron detectors (a Bonner (3)He thermal neutron detector, and a NE-213 one) and simple cell temperature measurement. No definite emissions were detected, although there were some slight increases over the background. Nevertheless, the authors say that cold fusion exists, and encourage further work, including that with "crazy ideas". Dec-89/Mar-91 # Takahashi A, Iida T, Miyamaru H, Fukuhara M; Fusion Technol. 27 (1995) 71. "Multibody fusion model to explain experimental results". ** Theory, multibody, res+ The authors address the main problems posed by experimental evidence of CNF: weak neutron emission; some proton emission; some tritium but not sufficient to match excess heat; high levels of 4He, in line with excess heat; high levels of excess heat. These are linked, and may be explained by clusters of 2, 3 or 4 deuterons, fusing as such and leading to excited 4He, 5Li, 6Li, 7Be, etc. Such clusters would have enhanced fusion cross sections. The paper then discusses expected decay channels at length. Finally, some experimental support is mentioned. The clusters are thought to form by transients acting on deuterons getting close to each other at tetra- and octahedral sites in highly loaded PdDx. Sep-93/Jan-95 # Takahashi A, Iida T, Takeuchi T, Mega A; Int. J. Appl. Electromagn. Mater. 3 (1992) 221. "Excess heat and nuclear products by D2O/Pd electrolysis and multibody fusion". ** A detailed description of a series of electrolysis experiments, in which both cell temperature and neutron emission were monitored, cell temp. by a single thermistor between the cathode and a cooling coil, and neutrons by an method described elsewhere. The cathodes were Pd plates, 25*25 mm**2 by 1 mm thick, mounted between two polyethylene insulators, which was wound with the Pt anode at a pitch of 5 mm. This allowed a loading of close to 1, believe the authors. The cell temperature (mixing) time constant was measured at about 15 min, and a rough calibration of power output vs cell temperature was made. The applied (controlled) current was either ramped or pulsed at around 1A/cm**2, for long periods, with topping up of D2O every 4-8 days. Several anomalous excess heat events were observed, in one instance an accumulated excess of 160 MJ over a week. Some neutron events were seen, but correlated somewhat negatively with excess heat events. Neutron flux was generally higher for high current, however. Also, neutron flux remained low for 1-2 days after one D2O topping up. The authors present their theory to explain the dearth of neutrons. At high loadings, 3-body and 4-body fusions might take place, some producing no neutrons or tritons, but alpha particles instead. May-92/? # Takahashi A; J. Nucl. Sci. Technol. 26 (1989) 558. "Opening possibility of deuteron-catalyzed cascade fusion channel in PdD under D2O electrolysis". ** Suggests that under the conditions of cold fusion in PdD, the predominant reactions would be d+d-->(4)He* and (4)He*+d-->(6)Li*-->(4)He+d+23.8MeV. This cascade would explain the FPH results, giving fusion rates of up to 1E-13 f/s per D atom. April-17-89/May-89 # Takahashi A, Takeuchi T, Iida T, Watanabe M; J. Nucl. Sci. Technol. 27 (1990) 663. "Emission of 2.45 MeV and higher energy neutrons from D2O-Pd cell under biased-pulse electrolysis". ** The authors update an earlier report, submitted to Fusion Technol., of positive cold fusion results; here, they obtained neutron emissions at 2.45 MeV and at higher energies 3-7 MeV, from biased-pulse electrolysis of 0.2-0.4 M LiOD in D2O, with a Pd cathode. Biased-pulse means alternating higher with lower current densities, e.g. 0.8A with 0.5A at about 2 cm**2, each level for a couple of minutes or so. Light irradiation simultaneous with either the high- or the low-level currents was also tried. Water temperature was measured with a thermocouple, neutrons by a cross-checking system of a (3)He with a NE213 detector, and tritium in aliquots taken from the electrolyte (to be reported later). The emissions at higher energies cannot be explained by hitherto known fusion reactions. May-90/Jul-90 # Takahashi A; Oyo Butsuri 62 (1993) 707 (In Japanese). "Production of neutron, tritium and excess heat". ** Chemical Abstracts (119:280105) calls this a review but it is limited in this respect, with only 11 refs. largely to Japanese work. Storms. The figures are taken from Takahashi's own work, and show neutron counts going up with electrolysis current, a neutron peak at 2.5 MeV, a figure with a large number of points showing excess heat increasing with D/Pd loading. Mar-93/? # Takahashi A; Kaku Yugo Kenkyu 68(4) (1992) 360 (in Japanese, English abstr.). "Cold fusion research: Recent progress". ** Review of three years' accumulated cold fusion work, observing weak neutron emission, tritium generation with anomalous n/t ratios, charged particle emission with anomalies, (4)He generation, excess heat, and anomalous D/Pd loading. Some of these suggest a nuclear process, but the relationship between excess heat and nuclear products is not yet clear. 14 refs. Jul-92/? # Takahashi A; Koon Gakkaishi 19(5) (1993) 179 (in Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 120:87961 (1993). ** CA: "A review with 11 refs. is presented with the emphasis on the important exptl. results and theor. model". The review seems to be up to date to the symposium ICCF3, and shows the familiar graphs of the dependence of excess heat on the D/Pd loading and on current density, mentiosn surface layers, radiation measurements, He detection. # Takahashi A; Suiso Enerugi Shisutemu 21 (1996) 39 (in Japanese, Eng. abstr.). "Recent results and activities on the new hydrogen energy ("cold fusion")". ** Sm. review. This is a smallish roundup with only 11 references, most of them to conference proceedings. From the abstract it is clear that the author believes that CNF has been demonstrated, excess heat found but without fusion taking place; and that some unconfirmed reports claim helium-4 and should be repeated. The key is to pin down the nuclear or chemical origin of excess heat. # Takahashi H; J. Fusion Energy 9 (1991) 441. "Dynamical screening of potential by mobile deuteron and fusion rate of accelerated deuteron in PdDx". ** Like the Tajima et al work, this paper stresses that deuterons under motion are better than stationary d's. In fact, d-d screening is not only done by electrons but by moving deuterons as well. Takahashi develops his previous model further and finds that, for accelerated deuterons, fusion might occur at observed rates. The acceleration might be provided by the joint movement of groups of deuterons, creating a sort of whip, or surfing, effect. ?/Dec-90 # Takahashi Y; Kagaku Kogaku 53 (1989) 608. (In Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 111:122093 (1989). "Present status and future problems of cold nuclear fusion" ** Chem. Abstr. says "Discussion with 3 references". # Takahashi Y; Gendai Kagaku 223 (1989) 48 (in Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 111:220288 (1989). "Room temperature nuclear fusion". ** Review, with no references (huh?) of the FPH and Jones+ experiments, as well as the non-electrochemical Italian work. # Takahashi Y; Kagaku (Kyoto) 45 (1990) 54. (In Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 112:146653 (1990). "After effects of the cold nuclear fusion experiments". ** A survey of the papers following those of FPH and Jones+ (10 references). No paper reports the excess heat of FPH although some do report some neutrons or protons. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 14:53:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25505; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:21:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:21:21 -0800 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:18:09 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Takahashi's TC troubles Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802141720_MC2-334D-C035 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"wBC0w.0.RE6.VZXvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Lee HANSEN , who thinks he invented the technique of measuring heat at the cell wall also believes he was the first to notice that Takahashi had problems with his thermocouples. He writes: I have not spoken directly with him since our visit. Nor during the visit did we wish to insult him publicly by being too blunt. We also wished to have some time to think about and evaluate what we had seen before we said anything. During the visit, we restricted ourselves to asking questions and obtaining information. Conclusions were drawn later. This polite reticence was hardly necessary. There was no need to wait to draw conclusions "later;" everyone who saw it, including Takahashi and me, drew that same conclusion instantly. Before Hansen visited Takahashi and reported these problems Takahashi himself described them in detail in his lecture at MIT and Texas A&M, and in various interviews published in the Yomiuri newspaper and the Japanese edition of Playboy, and published by me. As Takahashi said during the lectures, the calorimetry was "garbage." Not only did the TC fail completely after the experiment, it failed during the experiment, and had to be recalibrated. Actually, Hanson's claim that "we did not want to publicly insult him" is bullshit, and fairly hilarious bullshit at that, because soon after he left Takahashi's lab Steve Jones went on National Television (NHK) in Japan and claimed that "Takahashi did not calibrate." This came as a shock to Takahashi, Ikegami and other CF scientists who saw the broadcast. Indeed it would have shocked anyone who attended Takahashi's lecture or visited the lab, because his calibration curves are quite prominently displayed -- you couldn't miss 'em! I think what Hansen means is that he Jones are will stab people in the back and lie about them in the mass media, but they do not have the guts to lie to Takahashi in his face. Like most of the CF "calorimetry" . . . This was not calorimetry, and it never was intended to be. The TC was installed merely to keep tabs on the cell, as a way of double checking the power measurements. It was never seriously intended to measure excess heat. It was used for that purpose in a pinch when massive excess heat developed, partly as a safety measure. Takahashi's method of heat measurement was very poorly designed, subject to large errors, and never properly calibrated or tested. As I said, it was calibrated, and the calibration curves were shown during the lectures and to all visitors at the lab. It was tested extensively after it began to show anomalous heat, and again when it broke. Takahashi did not pursue electrochemical CF much after the first experiment. He said the results convinced him the effect is real, and as far as he is concerned electrochemical loading is the worst possible way to achieve the CF effect. He implants deuterons into metal with a powerful ion beam, because that method always works, and it takes only a few seconds to achieve massive loading. After the sample is loaded, the beam is turned off and neutrons are observed for about a half-hour I think. His research has been focused exclusively on conventional nuclear effects like neutrons. It would be impossible to measure excess heat with this arrangement. There is a pattern to Hansen's reports. He focuses exclusively on problems in early experiments which everyone knows existed, and which the experimenter themselves readily admitted at the time. He pretends that he has discovered that mixing is crucial, that multiple TCs are recommended, that measuring at the cell wall is a good technique, and so on, which is common knowledge and has been described in the literature extensively. The literature is full of examples of experiments meeting the most rigorous tests for good calorimetry, but Hansen pretends they do not exist, just as he pretends that Takahashi did not show calibration curves during his lectures. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 15:21:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21127; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:12:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:12:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980214185352.00ae81d8 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:53:56 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Quantum Tunnelling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qQZOT3.0.u95.zIYvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Perhaps you might find this of interest http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/9802126 In light of the recent dicussion of AB effect. KPN Calling all Italian list members... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 14 17:47:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28208; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:32:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:32:26 -0800 Message-ID: <34E6444B.49B3 skylink.net> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:26:35 -0800 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980212223356.00ad62c8 cnct.com> <34E3C181.4A88@interlaced.net> <34E4BEDB.5E52@skylink.net> <34E51CBF.6DF3@interlaced.net> <34E63001.54DD@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QP6Bm3.0.du6.eMavq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ehammond pacbell.net wrote: > I think that you must use the quantum approach with A before you have > any of the meat of interest to this group. This means QED,etc. The momentum of an electric charge is (q)(A), classical, QED, or any other way you want to look at it. Mother Nature does the math. It is a classical experiment, and a relatively simple experiment. You do something, and you do or you do not get any measurable result. QED theory now predicts that you can not get any measurable result. If the theory is inconsistent or incomplete to begin with, perhaps using the foundations of the theory to express the result of the experiment, will only result in a circular argument -- it does not work, therefore it can not work, therefore it does not work. Maybe it doesn't work, but based on the classical arguments that have been presented here, it surely seems that it must. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 01:54:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23033; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:52:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:52:15 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mills letter Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:50:19 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ec6766.100094415 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19980211141220.006c0010 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980211182103.00ad7354@mail.eden.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980211182103.00ad7354 mail.eden.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"idhvc1.0.od5.Dhhvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:21:03 -0600, Scott Little wrote: [snip] >If the device works, we sit down and attempt to negotiate a deal. NOTE >that They hold all the cards at this table. We are convinced it works [snip] Sounds like they are playing solitaire ;^). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 01:54:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26954; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:50:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:50:54 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:50:13 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34ea48c2.92249157 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> In-Reply-To: <34E0F9CC.6352 interlaced.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e9SwV2.0.4b6.-fhvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:07:24 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >Hamdi, if I am not mistaken, for this to be rigorously true, we must >consider the current to flow in "current sheets" rather than wire >windings. For a toroid, the current would flow only around the small >diameter of the toroid and have zero component around the large way. > >Given this, my physics book then applies Ampere's law in the form: > > Line integral of(B dot dL) = mu_0 * i > >where dL is an element of length of the path of integration, L > > B dot dL is the component of B parallel to L > > i is the total current threading through the surface formed > by the closed path, L > > mu_0 is the permeability of space (assuming an air core toroid) The formula as presented here would produce a simple square well function for the field as a function of distance from C. For a moment, let's take a look at this for a single wire carrying a current i. If the wire is straight, and the return feed is very far away, then the field lines around the wire will be circular by good approximation. So at a distance r from the wire, the B field will be a constant and can be removed from the integral. This leaves a simple integral of L around a circle, equal to 2*PI*r. So in this case we have B*2*PI*r = mu_0 * i, or B = (mu_0 * i)/(2*PI*r). This shows a simple 1/r dependence for B. Now let's look down on top of our torus with "o" representing current coming out of the page, and "x" representing current going into the page. "P" will be a point on L outside of the torus. "C" is the centre of the torus. All the points are chosen to lie on a straight line passing through P and C. o1 x2 C x3 o4 P Now it seems to me that the field in B should be the sum of the fields due to "wires" passing through o1,x2,x3,and o4. Note that since these are really just different points on the same wire, the magnitude of the current through all points is the same. For the sum I would then get Bt = B1 - B2 - B3 + B4. With the formula above this combines to: ((mu_0 * i)/(2*PI))*(1/r1 - 1/r2 - 1/r3 + 1/r4), in which r1 = distance from o1 to P r2 = " " x2 to P r3 = " " x3 to P r4 = " " o4 to P. Note that for P a long way from the torus, the sum of these 1/r terms approaches zero, so the total field also approaches zero. This is of course, going to be wrong ;). It completely neglects the field contributions of all the other wires around the torus. However it does point to a problem. The problem is that it probably isn't allowable to simply algebraically add all the current components, when these are not all at the same distance from the line segment dL that is under consideration. This is because to do so ignores that fact that B depends on distance from i. > >If you choose L to be a path around the large diameter of the toroid, >just outside the current sheet, You can see that the total current >through the path L is zero since as much flows "in" the surface of L >as flows "out" of it - adding to zero. The rest is believing in the So this "addition" isn't really valid. >symmetry of the problem. This according to my physics book! [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 03:55:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28408; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:52:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 03:52:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 05:45:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802151145.FAA04751 dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 To: Scott Little Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"V7aii3.0.nx6.ESjvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 15, 1998 Scott, Just remembered from years back, the days I worked at a parking lot. The lot used a series of lighting poles that used (GE) incandecent 1 KW light bulbs. It is an oversized clear glass light bulb. The bulb had about 3 liters capacity, relatively thick glass, and the uncoated coiled tugsten filament in there was large. Imagine a Mazda lamp enlarged ten times, screw base and all. I think they still sell them for replacements. It has a sealed tube access at the bottom so you could introduce the KNO2 and hydrogen in there. This gets close, in size, to the BLP setup. You might want to look into it. Maybe those stadium lights might be even larger. I kept one as a novelty to hang from the ceiling (never did) to simulate the cartoon where a bare bulb lights up when you get a bright idea. The size tickled me. :) -AK- -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 06:46:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09468; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 06:42:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 06:42:53 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Photo-Hydrinolator Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 07:38:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3a1f$66584520$188cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"e9iWO3.0.sJ2.gxlvq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Stuff needed, 12 volt automotive light-bulb 0-12 volt D.C. power supply Insulated cup or thermos bottle Battery acid (Dilute H2SO4) KOH or K2CO3 (wood-ash leach okay) Glass thermometer & Ph paper Attach wires to light-bulb, (seal in paraffin wax) Mix H2SO4 and KOH-K2CO3 to get Ph of 2-3 (KHSO4aq)----> K+ + H+ + SO4^2- Immerse bulb in a measured weight of "electrolyte" in thermos. Apply power and measure temperature rise of "electrolyte". If the unit goes O/U, notify Nobel Committee. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 08:24:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA31235; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 08:17:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 08:17:20 -0800 Message-ID: <34E7151A.5950 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:17:30 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> <34ea48c2.92249157@mail.eisa.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G3LCO.0.zd7.EKnvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robin van Spaandonk wrote: > (large snip) Frank wrote: > >If you choose L to be a path around the large diameter of the toroid, > >just outside the current sheet, You can see that the total current > >through the path L is zero since as much flows "in" the surface of L > >as flows "out" of it - adding to zero. The rest is believing in the symmetry of the problem. Robin wrote: > So this "addition" isn't really valid. > Gee, Robin, the toroidal coil, I think, is the ONLY FINITE GEOMETRICAL SHAPE of coil and associated magnetic field that IS SIMPLE ENOUGH to solve as a quick example for basic physics texts. The whole thing depends on using the beautiful symmetry of the device. The above approach is also used in my "Halliday and Resnick" book to find the field inside of an infinitely long solenoid. I guess we could find the field of the toroid by taking it to be a large number of circular turns of current going around the "small" way. The equation for the field of a single circular turn of current would take several lines of ascii BASIC notation on this page and require evaluation of the elliptic integrals of the 1st and 2nd kind. Then, we use a computer program to rotate each turn through a small angle, calculate the increment of the field at our point P, and add up all these increments from the turns around the toroid. I happen to have written such a program to map the field of FINITE straight solenoids (axial symmetry) for a special interest I have. Hamdi asked for a mathematical proof of zero field outside the toroid and I just took the one right out of Halliday and Resnick. All I can do is recommend any college physics book for a similar example! I have no reason to doubt the approach. Any other is just too complex. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 09:30:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07749; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:26:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:26:39 -0800 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:12:44 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: More about Takahashi Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802151216_MC2-335C-2FF7 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Ugwky.0._u1.ELovq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Yesterday I wrote that the TC in A. Takahashi's cell was placed there to "keep tabs" on the cell, and not to do calorimetry. Let me clarify. The main reason he put a TC in there, he told me, was to be sure that heat did not affect the neutron detector. When he said the calorimetry was "garbage" he meant that the method is crude, calibrated at only 5 points, and it has a wide error margin because, for example, the cell was not insulated -- because that might have interfered with neutron detection. He never expected to see excess heat and he did not plan for it. However, he observed that the cell was producing massive excess heat. He couldn't miss seeing it! The cell was boiling at input levels where it had previous been far below boiling. As Takahashi said, no matter how bad the calorimetry may have been, there is no doubt that the excess heat was real. When excess heat developed, Takahashi used the TC in place to account for it as best he could. He was concerned about safety, and about what might happen if it boiled off completely. Jones & Hanson claimed on NHK national news and on e-mail that the cell was not calibrated. Although cooling water was circulated through the cell to keep the temperature low, this was static calorimetry, based on electrolyte temperature only. You cannot do static calorimetry without first calibrating. The temperature has no meaning. (Only Pons and Fleischmann have published a first principle analysis of a static calorimeter, and of course they did not depend on it, they also did extensive calibration.) The purpose was to keep track of temperature artifacts on the neutron detector, but you still need to know where the temperature should be at a given power level. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 09:37:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09814; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:33:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:33:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980216003455.0075fe20 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:34:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: More about Takahashi In-Reply-To: <199802151216_MC2-335C-2FF7 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"OEUVI3.0.xO2.vRovq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:12 PM 2/15/98 -0500, Jed wrote: >Yesterday I wrote that the TC in A. Takahashi's cell was placed there to "keep >tabs" on the cell, and not to do calorimetry. Let me clarify. The main reason >he put a TC in there, he told me, was to be sure that heat did not affect the >neutron detector. When he said the calorimetry was "garbage" he meant that the >method is crude, calibrated at only 5 points, and it has a wide error margin >because, for example, the cell was not insulated -- because that might have >interfered with neutron detection. Thank you, Jed, for clarifying this further, and for explaining the parallel temp system used. And also for specifying which Takahashi was involved. After this are some of A. Takahashi's other abstracts. Mitchell Swartz ==== partial references of Dr. A. Takahashi to follow, subset from Prof Britz's bibliography: ===================================================== Takahashi A, Iida T, Maekawa F, Sugimoto H, Yoshida S; Fusion Technol. 19 (1991) 380. "Windows of cold nuclear fusion and pulsed electrolysis experiments". ** A hypothetical excitation-screening model is proposed as a possible mechanism for nuclear heating, and some experiments to confirm it, are reported. The model rules out cold fusion under stationary conditions, so nonstationary conditions are examined as well. Pd is unusual with its 10 valence electrons. An incoming deuteron will be surrounded by many free electrons, resulting in strong screening. As more and more d comes in, the probablity of a d-d meeting increases, while electron screening decreases. At a certain loading, the fusion rate will be at a maximum. At full charging, screening is very weak; no more fusion. This might explain some of the observed results. Some rough estimations using the excitation model indicate the feasibility of observed fusion rates. An experiment using biased pulsed electrolysis current was then run, involving two different neutron detectors (a Bonner (3)He thermal neutron detector, and a NE-213 one) and simple cell temperature measurement. No definite emissions were detected, although there were some slight increases over the background. Nevertheless, the authors say that cold fusion exists, and encourage further work, including that with "crazy ideas". Dec-89/Mar-91 # Takahashi A, Iida T, Miyamaru H, Fukuhara M; Fusion Technol. 27 (1995) 71. "Multibody fusion model to explain experimental results". ** Theory, multibody, res+ The authors address the main problems posed by experimental evidence of CNF: weak neutron emission; some proton emission; some tritium but not sufficient to match excess heat; high levels of 4He, in line with excess heat; high levels of excess heat. These are linked, and may be explained by clusters of 2, 3 or 4 deuterons, fusing as such and leading to excited 4He, 5Li, 6Li, 7Be, etc. Such clusters would have enhanced fusion cross sections. The paper then discusses expected decay channels at length. Finally, some experimental support is mentioned. The clusters are thought to form by transients acting on deuterons getting close to each other at tetra- and octahedral sites in highly loaded PdDx. Sep-93/Jan-95 # Takahashi A, Iida T, Takeuchi T, Mega A; Int. J. Appl. Electromagn. Mater. 3 (1992) 221. "Excess heat and nuclear products by D2O/Pd electrolysis and multibody fusion". ** A detailed description of a series of electrolysis experiments, in which both cell temperature and neutron emission were monitored, cell temp. by a single thermistor between the cathode and a cooling coil, and neutrons by an method described elsewhere. The cathodes were Pd plates, 25*25 mm**2 by 1 mm thick, mounted between two polyethylene insulators, which was wound with the Pt anode at a pitch of 5 mm. This allowed a loading of close to 1, believe the authors. The cell temperature (mixing) time constant was measured at about 15 min, and a rough calibration of power output vs cell temperature was made. The applied (controlled) current was either ramped or pulsed at around 1A/cm**2, for long periods, with topping up of D2O every 4-8 days. Several anomalous excess heat events were observed, in one instance an accumulated excess of 160 MJ over a week. Some neutron events were seen, but correlated somewhat negatively with excess heat events. Neutron flux was generally higher for high current, however. Also, neutron flux remained low for 1-2 days after one D2O topping up. The authors present their theory to explain the dearth of neutrons. At high loadings, 3-body and 4-body fusions might take place, some producing no neutrons or tritons, but alpha particles instead. May-92/? # Takahashi A; J. Nucl. Sci. Technol. 26 (1989) 558. "Opening possibility of deuteron-catalyzed cascade fusion channel in PdD under D2O electrolysis". ** Suggests that under the conditions of cold fusion in PdD, the predominant reactions would be d+d-->(4)He* and (4)He*+d-->(6)Li*-->(4)He+d+23.8MeV. This cascade would explain the FPH results, giving fusion rates of up to 1E-13 f/s per D atom. April-17-89/May-89 # Takahashi A, Takeuchi T, Iida T, Watanabe M; J. Nucl. Sci. Technol. 27 (1990) 663. "Emission of 2.45 MeV and higher energy neutrons from D2O-Pd cell under biased-pulse electrolysis". ** The authors update an earlier report, submitted to Fusion Technol., of positive cold fusion results; here, they obtained neutron emissions at 2.45 MeV and at higher energies 3-7 MeV, from biased-pulse electrolysis of 0.2-0.4 M LiOD in D2O, with a Pd cathode. Biased-pulse means alternating higher with lower current densities, e.g. 0.8A with 0.5A at about 2 cm**2, each level for a couple of minutes or so. Light irradiation simultaneous with either the high- or the low-level currents was also tried. Water temperature was measured with a thermocouple, neutrons by a cross-checking system of a (3)He with a NE213 detector, and tritium in aliquots taken from the electrolyte (to be reported later). The emissions at higher energies cannot be explained by hitherto known fusion reactions. May-90/Jul-90 # Takahashi A; Oyo Butsuri 62 (1993) 707 (In Japanese). "Production of neutron, tritium and excess heat". ** Chemical Abstracts (119:280105) calls this a review but it is limited in this respect, with only 11 refs. largely to Japanese work. Storms. The figures are taken from Takahashi's own work, and show neutron counts going up with electrolysis current, a neutron peak at 2.5 MeV, a figure with a large number of points showing excess heat increasing with D/Pd loading. Mar-93/? # Takahashi A; Kaku Yugo Kenkyu 68(4) (1992) 360 (in Japanese, English abstr.). "Cold fusion research: Recent progress". ** Review of three years' accumulated cold fusion work, observing weak neutron emission, tritium generation with anomalous n/t ratios, charged particle emission with anomalies, (4)He generation, excess heat, and anomalous D/Pd loading. Some of these suggest a nuclear process, but the relationship between excess heat and nuclear products is not yet clear. 14 refs. Jul-92/? # Takahashi A; Koon Gakkaishi 19(5) (1993) 179 (in Japanese). Cited in Chem. Abstr. 120:87961 (1993). ** CA: "A review with 11 refs. is presented with the emphasis on the important exptl. results and theor. model". The review seems to be up to date to the symposium ICCF3, and shows the familiar graphs of the dependence of excess heat on the D/Pd loading and on current density, mentiosn surface layers, radiation measurements, He detection. # Takahashi A; Suiso Enerugi Shisutemu 21 (1996) 39 (in Japanese, Eng. abstr.). "Recent results and activities on the new hydrogen energy ("cold fusion")". ** Sm. review. This is a smallish roundup with only 11 references, most of them to conference proceedings. From the abstract it is clear that the author believes that CNF has been demonstrated, excess heat found but without fusion taking place; and that some unconfirmed reports claim helium-4 and should be repeated. The key is to pin down the nuclear or chemical origin of excess heat. # From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 11:26:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28740; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:21:22 -0800 To: mikec snip.net Cc: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:17:38 -0800 Subject: Re: A final response Message-ID: <19980215.111849.12222.2.tv juno.com> References: <19980214040102268.AAA157 default> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"UGeE51.0.y07.m0qvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, has there been any news about the Correa's and the PAGD technology ? Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 15 18:24:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11227; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:19:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:19:01 -0800 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34E74BAF.1A9539ED mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:10:23 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 results References: <3.0.5.32.19980213004825.00885a10 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YG3v21.0.Gl2.J8wvq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: Executive summary: ... Hi Scott, Based on the interview with Randall Mills in "Infinite Energy", Vol.3, No.17, there is something you could try with your present setup: H2 at or below 100 millitorr and reactor walls at 850 C or higher. Given your reactor geometry, you should probably run at about 20 millitorr to minimize the disrupting reactions with oxygen. Since you could go 3 hours in vacuum before filament burnout, this long shot might be worth a try. Randall Mills' picture of hydrinos diffusing through the walls of a stainless steel reactor like helium through a rubber balloon is enchanting. I really like his idea that hydrinos make up the "dark matter." It's far more convincing than wimps or neutrinos. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 03:46:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14847; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:42:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:42:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Filament Temp? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:39:31 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3acf$8be62900$188cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZuqX63.0.sd3.gO2wq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Radiated Power (watts/cm^2) emissivity 1600 K 2000 K 2400 K 1.0 37.00 90.00 188.00 0.26** 9.62 23.4 49.00 Evap. (gr/cm^2) sec 1.76E-13 4.26E-10 ** published total emissivity for W at these temps. By the time one plugs in an area factor (0.1?)plus a radiative shape factor (0.5?) there isn't much left of a filament after a short time with 10 watts going into it,is there? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 04:36:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17948; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:25:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:25:38 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RIFEX Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:25:15 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f12cdc.43002468 mail.eisa.net.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n7JGr.0.MO4.113wq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, Is your RIFEX experiment still running, or has it concluded, and if so do you have any results? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 05:35:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09832; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 05:27:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 05:27:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Filament Temp? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:23:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3ade$1088e680$188cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"BL3BX2.0.VP2.Bx3wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With radiation of about 25 watts/cm^2 at 2,000K, it looks like a 0.01" (0.0254 cm)diameter filament 5.0" (13 cm)long would last a bit,if there is no oxidation.About 4 coils a centimeter in diameter. At 2,000 K rho = 5.667E-5 ohm-cm. R = rho*length/area = 5.667E-5*13/(pi)*(1.27E-2)^2 = 1.45 ohms. About 6 volts at 4 amps for 25 watts. How's that for Monday Morning Wisdom? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 06:30:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15168; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:19:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:19:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Experiment Suggestion Box Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:14:22 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3ae5$2dca5b00$188cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rrHTx1.0.si3.ch4wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: If KNO3 or KOH is "painted" as a water slurry onto Aluminum foil or mixed with shredded Al foil in a small Al foil "boat" and heated, there should be a reaction: 2 KNO3 + 4 Al ---> 2 K + 2 Al2O3 + N2 or 3 KOH + 2 Al ----> 3 K + Al2O3 + 1.5 H2 This might keep the Oxygen off the filament. Coarse Aluminum filings would work also. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 06:47:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05204; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:42:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:42:20 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980216084331.00ae3f64 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:43:31 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX In-Reply-To: <34f12cdc.43002468 mail.eisa.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HYo5K3.0.AH1.A15wq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:25 2/16/98 GMT, Robin wrote: >Scott, > >Is your RIFEX experiment still running, or has it concluded, and if so >do you have any results? The work is finished...at least for now. As we speak, Miley is studying our final report. Our conclusions are quite different from his and we are giving him a chance to point out errors on our part before going public with the report. I expect to have the report posted on our web page within 2 weeks. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 07:36:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10602; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:20:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:20:00 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980216151937.0069c7f8 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:19:37 -0500 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP Experiment Suggestion Box Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"DVyEz.0.ab2.Ua5wq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:14 AM 2/16/98 -0700, Fred Sparber wrote: >If KNO3 or KOH is "painted" as a water slurry onto Aluminum foil or mixed >with shredded Al foil in a small Al foil "boat" and heated, there should be >a reaction: >2 KNO3 + 4 Al ---> 2 K + 2 Al2O3 + N2 or > >3 KOH + 2 Al ----> 3 K + Al2O3 + 1.5 H2 > >This might keep the Oxygen off the filament. > >Coarse Aluminum filings would work also. > >Regards, Frederick > To balance the reaction between KNO3 and Al can be a little tricky because not all the N is necessarily reduced to neutral N2 but I doubt even then that you would get metallic K. With regard to the second reaction I get a balanced reaction: 3KOH + Al -------> K3AlO3 + 1.5 H2 again no metallic K. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 08:28:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01018; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:16:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:16:55 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Edwin Strojny" Cc: Subject: Re: BLP Experiment Suggestion Box Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:11:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3af5$9b22f580$188cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"bfi-a3.0.qF.sP6wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Edwin Strojny To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 12:19 AM Subject: Re: BLP Experiment Suggestion Box >At 07:14 AM 2/16/98 -0700, Fred Sparber wrote: >>If KNO3 or KOH is "painted" as a water slurry onto Aluminum foil or mixed >>with shredded Al foil in a small Al foil "boat" and heated, there should be >>a reaction: >>2 KNO3 + 4 Al ---> 2 K + 2 Al2O3 + N2 or >> >>3 KOH + 2 Al ----> 3 K + Al2O3 + 1.5 H2 >> >>This might keep the Oxygen off the filament. >> >>Coarse Aluminum filings would work also. >> >>Regards, Frederick >> > >To balance the reaction between KNO3 and Al can be a little tricky because >not all the N is necessarily reduced to neutral N2 but I doubt even then >that you would get metallic K. With regard to the second reaction I get a >balanced reaction: > > 3KOH + Al -------> K3AlO3 + 1.5 H2 > >again no metallic K. To the contrary, Ed. The alkali aluminates only will use one or 2 alkali metals M-AlO2 or M2-Al2O4. You will still have excess alkali from the reactions. Also 2 NOx against excess Aluminum will go to N2 plus Aluminum oxide. The M2-Al2O4 is unstable against heat and will also react with the excess aluminum as KOx + Al giving free potassium. Any Bets? Regards, Frederick > >Ed Strojny > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 09:04:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06457; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:57:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:57:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:48:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802161648.KAA15175 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Use of KNO3 & KNO2 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"RzmAe1.0.la1.Q_6wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: February 16, 1998 Scott & Vortex, Finally found chemical characteristics of KNO3 & KNO2 in Chemistry Dictionary. Not much detail in CRC of compounds. This applies to both: Hazard: Dangerous fire and explosion risk when schocked or heated, or in contact with organic materials; strong oxidizing agent. (KNO3 is part of an explosive mix) On KNO3: Decomposes at 400 Centigrade On KNO2: Explodes at 1000 Fahrenheit (537.8 C) In a way, the tungsten filament was doing you a favor by oxidizing out. Although your container looks sturdy enough, I don't know what pressures could have been generated to possibly blow out the feed-throughs. Using platinum won't give you that factor. Who knows, you might get 'excess energy' with a blast. -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 09:16:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08337; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:09:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:09:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980216120848.00b762c0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:08:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: ZPE, Lamb's prize, and helium Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980213232203.006b9854 world.std.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980123120727.00bb69f0 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19971222072511.006c5c14 world.std.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4d7i7.0.922.uA7wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:22 PM 2/13/98 +0000, Mitchell Swartz wrote: Over the size of an atom, yes, special relativity and the uncertainty principle will hold as described. But when claims are invoked over interplanetary distances -- or other very large macroscopic distance -- to purportedly balance and "hold up" an energy level of a hydrogen atom, then based upon simple causality (special relativity) it seems this has been needlessly pushed back to a Ptolemic system of "wheels within wheels". I find it much easier to believe that the vacuum energy exists at every scale, than to conjecture that it only exists in the nucleus of atoms. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 11:50:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01704; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:37:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:37:43 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:27:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3b10$f04ebf10$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-gEG33.0.SQ.2M9wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >This sounds like a workable idea. The tube then serves as a baffle to >retard circulation in the immediate vicinity of the filament? Yes, that is the idea. The path to the nearest metal surface can be made long enough to reduce the probability of metal reduction. John Schnurer wrote: >Why not use SiC element? Or Kanthal - D ... or the like! This is an excellent suggestion. Hydrocarbons or CO2 formed on initial exposure of the filament to hydrogen could be pumped away, leaving an SiO2 layer on the filament that may be resistant to further H2O attack. Can these materials be used in the required power - size - temperature range for this experiment? How high a filament temperature be used with these materials? The downside here is that this is getting further from the BLP conditions, and immunity to contamination does not eliminate the possible effects of the contamination on "hydrino" formation. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 11:56:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03596; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:46:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:46:43 -0800 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:40:48 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 In-Reply-To: <01bd3b10$f04ebf10$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"xAqZz3.0.4u.WU9wq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., and Scott ... and George, of course; See notes below: On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, George Holz wrote: > > Scott Little wrote: > > >This sounds like a workable idea. The tube then serves as a baffle to > >retard circulation in the immediate vicinity of the filament? > > > Yes, that is the idea. The path to the nearest metal surface can be made > long enough to reduce the probability of metal reduction. > > John Schnurer wrote: > > >Why not use SiC element? Or Kanthal - D ... or the like! > > This is an excellent suggestion. Hydrocarbons or CO2 formed on > initial exposure of the filament to hydrogen could be pumped away, > leaving an SiO2 layer on the filament that may be resistant to > further H2O attack. > > Can these materials be used in the required power - size - > temperature range for this experiment? As my brother Paul would say "BAR .. big and real" These types of elements are used for high temp ovens. SiC will run at over 2000 C. > How high a filament temperature be used with these materials? > > The downside here is that this is getting further from the BLP > conditions, and immunity to contamination does not eliminate > the possible effects of the contamination on "hydrino" formation. > > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems > > Opinion: I think some 'black art' may have been left out ... It is high time to tinker! a] use heavy element, ie nickle .... b] use bridge to determine heat, not computation c] slowly bring H pressure up until anomaly is sensed ... d] sensing should be manifold ... do NOT depend on one metric e] do NOT worry about precision "to 1 X 10 minus 6 power gnat's eye ball That is uGEB, or micro GEB. Just get it to run first. f] do NOT thermally load your tank ... JHS > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 12:26:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08527; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:14:49 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:14:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980216141432.00ae5b50 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:14:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 In-Reply-To: References: <01bd3b10$f04ebf10$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"SJ2HE3.0.652.ru9wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've been soaking up all the BLP suggestions, wondering about why my filament seems to radiate more power than Fred's figures indicate it should, considering putting the filament in a quartz tube as George suggested, hoping that the experiment will explode as Aki mentioned, and preparing to perform the first run with a Pt filament (the wire got here today) when John S writes: > a] use heavy element, ie nickle .... use a Ni filament? why? melting point is only 1455C. > b] use bridge to determine heat, not computation please explain further. heat output? filament temperature? > c] slowly bring H pressure up until anomaly is sensed ... good idea. I've now got a pressure sensor with a wider range which will let me go up to 15 psi absolute. Beyond that I could start to use the Bourdon tube gauge that's a permanent part of the system (0-200 psi). > d] sensing should be manifold ... do NOT depend on one metric besides measuring the heat produced by the experiment, what else would you suggest? > e] do NOT worry about precision "to 1 X 10 minus 6 power > gnat's eye ball I assure you, my measurements are satisfactorily crude.... > f] do NOT thermally load your tank ... It's presently insulated all around with about 1" thick fiberglass batting. That is sufficient to allow a 30 watt input to raise the chamber temp to about 250C while the exterior of the fiberglass batting is held at ~40C by the water-flow calorimetry. Does that seem "too loaded" to you?...or have I misunderstood "load your tank"? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 12:40:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13271; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:31:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:31:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980216152845.008d3790 helix.ucsd.edu> X-Sender: bssimon helix.ucsd.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:28:45 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bart Simon Subject: Dept of Energy Right-to-Know sign-on letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <"2qvvz2.0.FF3.T8Awq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This might be of interest to some here.... bart >Subject: EIA Sign-on Letter > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Public Citizen's=20 >Critical Mass Energy Project >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DThe Department of=20 >Energy's Energy Information Agency currently collects >electric utility data on ownership, fuel consumption, financial costs, >capacity, reliability, load management, pollution >control, pollutant emissions, and other important of electric power plant >and utility operation. The EIA announced on January 13, 1998 in the >Federal Register (vol. 63, no. 8, page 1960) its intent to change its >confidentiality treatment of this data. > >Public Citizen is concerned that the EIA is responding to attempts by the >electric utility industry to make it harder for the public to track the >industry's: > >1) progress towards real competition >2) ability to comply with the Clean Air Act >3) progress towards incorporating renewable and alternative energy sources >in its energy mix, and >4) true energy generation & fuel costs and ability to determine if= consumers >are being gouged. > >Critical Mass worked with Calvert Group, Natural Resources Defense= Council, >the Project for Sustainable FERC Energy Policy, and the Working Group on >Community Right-to-Know to prepare the letter that follows. > >Please sign-on and circulate the letter to your member and affiliate >organizations. > >We also encourage you to send your own organization's formal comments to: >John Colligan >USDOE-EIA >1000 Independence Avenue, SW Room EI-524 >Washington, DC 20585-0650 > >Please provide us with the following information when you sign on: > >Your Name, Your Title >Your Organization >Mailing Address >Phone, Fax & Email > >Note that no individual names will be added to this letter *unless* the >individual is an academic--academics will be designated as such in the >letter. Sign-ons will be divided into 3 sections: National,= State/Regional, >& Academic. Please specify what category your group falls into. > >The last day to sign on is FRIDAY, MARCH 6, 1998. > >*********************************************************** >February 13, 1998 > >Jay Hakes >Director, Energy Information Administration >U.S. Department of Energy >1000 Independence Avenue, SW >Washington, DC 20585 > >RE: Right-to-Know Energy Information > >Dear Mr. Hakes: > >We, the undersigned organizations, are seriously concerned that a recent >notice by the Energy Information Administration (EIA) could lead to >restriction of public access to important data on the environmental, >economic and social aspects of electricity generation. We represent a wide >range of data users, including citizen groups, energy consumers, >environmental groups, investors, and researchers. > >EIA recently requested comment on the public availability of electric >industry data collected by the agency (data reported on EIA Forms 411, 412, >417R, 759, 767, 826, 860, 861, 867 and 900). Aside from current benefits= to >regulators, these forms provide the public with data on ownership, fuel >consumption, financial costs, capacity, reliability, load management, >pollution control, pollutant emissions, and other important aspects of >electric power plants and utilities. > >Disclosure of this EIA data serves the public interest by making= transparent >important economic and environmental information that is widely known to= the >industry, but is not otherwise generally available to the public. Such >information is essential for consumers and regulators alike to determine if >industry restructuring is benefiting consumers and the environment. >Efficient operation of the new electricity market will require public >information that is reliable, relevant and comparable. The public's >right-to-know should not be the first casualty of electric industry >deregulation. > >As you noted before the Committee on Science at the U.S. House of >Representatives on February 4, 1998, EIA is, "charged with providing >objective, timely, and relevant data, analysis, and projections for the use >of the Department, the Congress, and the public." Because we value this >role, we speak forcefully against attempts by the electric utility industry >and other electric generators to restrict public access to such important >data. We contend that even if a preponderance of industry responses favor >data confidentiality, this should not outweigh the assumption that >nonconfidentiality is in the public interest. Making EIA data broadly >available to the public should enhance, rather than impair, competition. >Therefore, we urge EIA to treat as nonconfidential comparable data from >utility and nonutility generators in order to establish a level playing >field across the industry. > >With regard to paperwork reduction, while it may be possible to eliminate >duplication in some areas, we argue: > > * in favor of electronic reporting and Internet posting, as a means of >facilitating dissemination of EIA data, and reducing reporting burdens; and > > * that concealing reported information does not reduce the reporting >burden, but rather reduces the value of reported information. > >Electric generating facilities have major environmental, economic and= social >impacts. They account for most domestic fossil fuel use, including 89 >percent of domestic coal consumption, and significant emissions of major= air >pollutants, including two-thirds of sulfur dioxide emissions and 35 percent >of carbon dioxide emissions. > >An important aspect of the EIA data is emissions of air pollutants. The >data obtained from agencies such as EPA and DOE is an invaluable component >of analysis of corporate environmental performance. For example, through >analysis of DOE's EIA Form 767 data, researchers can compare electric >generators' production-adjusted emissions of carbon dioxide, oxides of >nitrogen and sulfur dioxide. Confidentiality of such data would contravene >President Clinton's and Vice President Gore's efforts to expand the= public's >right to know about pollution. > >EIA notes that, under current policy, certain financial and operational >information from nonregulated generators is not disclosed and seeks= comments >on that policy. Our position is that comprehensive disclosure of all >currently collected data from electric generators, both regulated and >non-regulated, is essential. This information is needed to evaluate the >consumer and environmental impacts of electric industry restructuring. > >Annualized information on costs and revenues associated with operating >various types of power plants is essential for a number of public policy >purposes, including the evaluation of deregulation proposals by states, >regions and the federal government, as well as monitoring green power and >other marketing claims. Because the information is annualized from the= year >before, it will not hurt competition. Instead, it will help consumers know >whether competition is working. > >Thank you for your consideration of these concerns. A number of the >undersigned groups also intend to submit more specific comments on the >proposal. However, we want to convey our collective, general interest in >nonconfidentiality of EIA data and urge you to adopt a policy of full >disclosure of EIA data across the industry. We look forward to your >response. > >Sincerely, > >NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS >Calvert Group (Bethesda, MD), by Kenneth Scott >Public Citizen (Washington, DC), by Wenonah Hauter and Jessica Vallette >Natural Resources Defense Council (Washington, DC), by David Hawkins >Working Group on Community Right-to-Know (Washington, DC), by Paul Orum >Project for Sustainable FERC Energy Policy (Alexandria, VA), by Terry Black > >STATE/REGIONAL > >ACADEMICS > >cc: Federico F. Pe=A4a, Secretary of Energy > Elizabeth A. Moler, Deputy Secretary of Energy > Carol Browner, Administrator, Environmental Protection Agency > Katie McGinty, Chair, Council on Environmental Quality > John G. Colligan, Energy Information Agency > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DDirect your comments=20 >or questions: >Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project >215 Pennsylvania Ave., SE phone: 202-546-4996 >Washington, DC 20003 fax: 202-547-7392 >E-mail: cmep citizen.org >HomePage: www.citizen.org/cmep > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Bart Simon simonb post.queensu.ca Dept. of Sociology http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/ Queen's University Kingston, Ontario phone: 613-545-6000 x7152 K7L-3N6 fax: 613-545-2871 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 13:26:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17438; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:13:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:13:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:08:57 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3b1f$18783d00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ab6rm2.0.MG4.flAwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 5:20 AM Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 >considering putting the filament in a quartz tube as George NO! You will not get the H2 + W ----> 2 H effect or the K + W ---> K+ + e- either. On top of that K aginst silica (quartz) forms low melting akali silicates. You can take a hint from the filament size that Mills used, and see that the radiation/unit area was less than 45 watts/cm^2. >preparing to perform the first run with a Pt filament (the wire got here >today). It you don't get the watts/cm^2 down to balance the heat absorption/flow of you cell for the platinum you can kiss it goodbye too. :-) > >> b] use bridge to determine heat, not computation Computation is cheaper if you listen to what it is telling you. :-) > > >> c] slowly bring H pressure up until anomaly is sensed ... Change that to slowly bring filament power up. >I assure you, my measurements are satisfactorily crude.... Agreed, but light bulb technology has been around for trillions of units that are designed to radiate light.When you pen that light up in this arrangement you just make allowances for that difference. >f] do NOT thermally load your tank ... >It's presently insulated all around with about 1" thick fiberglass batting. > That is sufficient to allow a 30 watt input to raise the chamber temp to >about 250C while the exterior of the fiberglass batting is held at ~40C by >the water-flow calorimetry. Interesting. If the calorimeter is heat sinking while you are bringing up the filament power it should find an equilibrium point. I have fought this battle (and have the scars to show for it) but with electron bombardment heaters you just bring the W filament up to the required current and use a mag amp or SCR contoller to hold it there. If you floated the filament as Mike Schaffer and I suggested and used the emitted electrons as a temperature safety you wouldn't be in this mess. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 20:23:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06597; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:13:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:13:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <01BD3B97.34391AA0 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp> From: Melvin Miles To: "'Vortex'" Subject: JONES/HANSEN Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:28:42 +-900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id UAA06375 Resent-Message-ID: <"JRbPw1.0.zc1.kvGwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: e-mail 02/17/98 To: Vortex I agree completely with Jed Rothwell's comments concerning Jones and Hansen (see Takahashi's TC troubles). I attended Dr. Takahashi's seminar at Texas A & M and totally support Jed's comments. Dr. Takahashi's large excess heat effect continued for many days and cannot be explained away by a thermocouple problem in spite of Hansen's delusions. It is obvious that Jones and Hansen have minds set in concrete against any possibility for valid excess heat measurements. They are experts at trashing any scien tific work reporting excess heat and specialize in distortions and misrepresentations. Dr. Reiko Notoya of Hokkaido University has encountered similar problems with Jones and Hansen regarding false statements about her experiments. The following letter illustrates my viewpoint on this subject. Email and Letter 02/17/98 Dr. Melvin H. Miles The Institute of Applied Energy New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory 3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan 81-11-898-6391 - Phone 81-11-898-6390 - Fax miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - work February 17, 1998 Dr. Steven E. Jones Department of Physics and Astronomy Brigham Young University Provo, Utah 84602-5700 Dear Dr. Jones: I don't really understand how you can expect peace between us following your relentless attacks against my cold fusion results for the past six or seven years. I especially don't like the way this all began when you invited me to give a seminar at BYU in 1991. Instead of the normal seminar that I expected, this became a 3-hour inquisition by you and your co-workers. This was shortly followed by your distribution of written criticisms of my work based on my seminar. This was all highly improper conduct for a representative of a university towards an invited guest. Since I am also a member of the LDS church, I am disturbed by your calling as a Mormon Bishop. How can you be an example for religious standards when you indulge in scientific distortions and outright dishonesty? I know you try to present yourself as a very nice person, but your actions show a totally different character. It is really a shame that cold fusion had such a bad beginning. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons obviously needed much more time to check their results, yet you insisted on going public with your sloppy experiments that reported measurements of a few neutrons. This forced Fleischmann and Pons into that 1989 premature press conference. You were never able to reproduce your results, hence you became an aggressive critic of this field. It seems that you first wanted to claim credit for this discovery. When that failed, you then sought fame as a major cold fusion critic. In contrast to your activities in this field, I have simply tried to honestly report whatever results I obtained. In fact, my first publication covering six months of research reported no excess heat or any other anomalous effects. My early work was eve n cited in the notorious Energy Research Advisory Board (ERAB) report along with Cal Tech, MIT, and Harwell as a laboratory reporting no cold fusion effects. This was in 1989 during the same time period when you were claiming neutrons in your Nature publi cation. Cold fusion is a very difficult research field, but I am convinced that excess heat and nuclear products are present in some experiments. Because of your activities along with the vigorous opposition to cold fusion by many other critics, I am co ncerned that cold fusion research will dwindle away and that this potential new energy source will have to wait for future generations. Sincerely, Dr. Melvin H. Miles Guest Researcher - NHE Laboratory cc: President, Brigham Young University cc: Dr. Lee D. Hansen, Brigham Young University From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 22:24:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10008; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:13:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:13:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34E8CD5D.7940 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:35:57 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Hansen: Rothwell; Takahashi calorimetry References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E2 7F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hVSyv3.0.0S2.UgIwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >>> Rich Murray 02/15/98 08:43am >>> Subject: Takahashi's TC troubles Resent-Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:21:20 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:18:09 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex Hansen answers Rothwell re Takahashi electrochemistry Lee HANSEN , who thinks he invented the technique of measuring heat at the cell wall [Hansen: No, that was probably Lavoisier.] also believes he was the first to notice that Takahashi had problems with his thermocouples. [Hansen: No, that was obviously Takahashi or one of his coworkers.] He writes: > I have not spoken directly with him since our visit. Nor during the visit did we wish to insult him publicly by being too blunt. We also wished to have some time to think about and evaluate what we had seen before we said anything. During the visit, we restricted ourselves to asking questions and obtaining information. Conclusions were drawn later. [Hansen: I might also add, it gave Takahashi time to retract the report.] This polite reticence was hardly necessary. There was no need to wait to draw conclusions "later;" everyone who saw it, including Takahashi and me, drew that same conclusion instantly. Before Hansen visited Takahashi and reported these problems Takahashi himself described them in detail in his lecture at MIT and Texas A&M, and in various interviews published in the Yomiuri newspaper and the Japanese edition of Playboy, and published by me. [Hansen: If he instantly understood the problem, why did he report it as valid data at the meeting in Nagoya just before our visit?] As Takahashi said during the lectures, the calorimetry was "garbage." Not only did the TC fail completely after the experiment, it failed during the experiment, and had to be recalibrated. Actually, Hanson's claim that "we did not want to publicly insult him" is bullshit, and fairly hilarious bullshit at that, because soon after he left Takahashi's lab Steve Jones went on National Television (NHK) in Japan and claimed that "Takahashi did not calibrate." This came as a shock to Takahashi, Ikegami and other CF scientists who saw the broadcast. Indeed it would have shocked anyone who attended Takahashi's lecture or visited the lab, because his calibration curves are quite prominently displayed -- you couldn't miss 'em! [Hansen: As I have said before, there is a wide difference of what you mean by calibration and what I mean by calibration. My definition includes proof that the calorimetric system is accurate, not just precise.] I think what Hansen means is that he and Jones are will stab people in the back and lie about them in the mass media, but they do not have the guts to lie to Takahashi in his face. [Hansen: Are you having a bad day? Attacking the messenger may make you feel better, but does little to change the message.] Like most of the CF "calorimetry" . . . This was not calorimetry, and it never was intended to be. [Hansen: Then why was it used to report the amount of "excess heat"?] The TC was installed merely to keep tabs on the cell, as a way of double checking the power measurements. It was never seriously intended to measure excess heat. It was used for that purpose in a pinch when massive excess heat developed, [Hansen: I thought we agreed the "excess heat" never existed, it was only an artifact of a bad thermocouple.] partly as a safety measure. > Takahashi's method of heat measurement was very poorly designed, subject to large errors, and never properly calibrated or tested. As I said, it was calibrated, and the calibration curves were shown during the lectures and to all visitors at the lab. It was tested extensively after it began to show anomalous heat, and again when it broke. [Hansen: The point is that Takahashi's apparatus was incapable of being accurately calibrated, or of making meaningful measurements of heat.] Takahashi did not pursue electrochemical CF much after the first experiment. He said the results convinced him the effect is real, and as far as he is concerned electrochemical loading is the worst possible way to achieve the CF effect. [Hansen: Why not, if it truly showed the massive effects claimed?] He implants deuterons into metal with a powerful ion beam, because that method always works, and it takes only a few seconds to achieve massive loading. After the sample is loaded, the beam is turned off and neutrons are observed for about a half-hour I think. His research has been focused exclusively on conventional nuclear effects like neutrons. It would be impossible to measure excess heat with this arrangement. [Hansen: Why not? Especially if the effect is as large as claimed.] There is a pattern to Hansen's reports. He focuses exclusively on problems in early experiments which everyone knows existed, and which the experimenter themselves readily admitted at the time. [Hansen: Then why haven't these articles been retracted, and why are they still widely quoted as "proof" of CF?] He pretends that he has discovered that mixing is crucial, [Hansen: No, if you read the Thermochim. Acta paper, you will find that Tian and Calvet are credited with that.] that multiple TCs are recommended, that measuring at the cell wall is a good technique, and so on, which is common knowledge and has been described in the literature extensively. The literature is full of examples of experiments meeting the most rigorous tests for good calorimetry, [Hansen: And none of them have reported excess heat.] but Hansen pretends they do not exist, just as he pretends that Takahashi did not show calibration curves during his lectures. - Jed [Lee Hansen] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 16 22:36:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05732; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:29:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:29:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E8CF46.E2A earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:44:06 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Claytor: re LANL "LENT-nix" self-deception Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"iIRs92.0.UP1.puIwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust37.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.37]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA10911; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:05:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E8C6F7.51DB earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:08:39 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, koonin@caltech.edu, dg@cco.caltech.edu, collis netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion transmutation.com, aki.@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net Subject: Claytor: re LANL "LENT-nix" self-deception References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthlin! k.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E27F3 6.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Re[2]: LANL "LENT-nix" Self-Deception? Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:59:41 -0700 From: "Thomas N. Claytor" To: rl_brodzinski ccmail.pnl.gov (Ronald L Brodzinski) CC: Scott Little , Robert Bass , Flavio Fontana , Peter Glueck , Rich Murray To all, The problem as I see it is that the closed cell does not have the same geometry before and after running since the isotopes have migrated to the walls and the center electrode. The other significant problem, that Ron mentions, preventing accurate mass balance is collecting all the thorium from the inside of the cell. Tom. > The proper quantitative gamma-ray spectroscopic procedure is the > simplest one and the one we used here. 1) Close up the cell and count > it with a high-resolution germanium diode gamma-ray spectrometer for a > day or so to get good statistical accuracy. Use an easily and > accurately reproducible geometry. Determine the net photopeak area of > each thorium progeny gamma ray in the spectrum using any one of a > number of quality commercial gamma-ray spectral reduction codes > available. 2) Run the cell. 3) Recount the closed cell in exactly > the same geometry and compare the data. > > This will give you a quantitative measure of any change in all > daughter products of Th-232. It will not give you a measure of any > change in Th-232 itself. The thorium-232, which physically is > essentially all the thorium, must be mass balanced chemically. This > can be done by mass spec, wet chemistry, or other techniques. The > hard part is getting it all back since I believe it has been very well > demonstrated that 100% of the thorium does not remain in the solution. > As you know, after the fact when we started to mass balance the Th-232 > here, we had made some irreversible mistakes (like wiping some of it > out of the cell with tissues and losing it) and only recovered a > little over 60% of the starting thorium. However, we did demonstrate > that there was absolutely no change in any of the thorium > gamma-emitting progeny between the before and after measurements. > Ideally, the entire cell would be solubilized after operation, and the > thorium content could then be accurately quantified. In practice, > this is not practical, and a careful recovery process for thorium in > all forms on and in all surfaces and solutions should be preplanned to > quantify the thorium after reaction. Of most importance, the same > analytical procedure must be applied to the "before" and "after" > components to be able to compare the results. > > http://www.nde.lanl.gov/staff/claytor/claytor.htm Thomas N. Claytor Claytor_t_n lanl.gov Los Alamos National Laboratory ESA-MT, MS C914 Los Alamos NM, 87545 505-667-6216 voice 505-665-7176 fax From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 00:30:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24238; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:27:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:27:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:54:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ZPE Priority: normal In-reply-to: <01BD3935.4AE7D840 pm3-157.gpt.infi.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <4646BA03FD hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"6FQM2.0.Tw5.vdKwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > Greetings: > > I've been reading posts that claim either: > > 1. Zero Point energy doesn't exist, > 2. Zero point energy is so small that tapping it destroys space, > OR > 3. Zero point energy is infinite at all places. I think you are right to say that claim #1 has been disproven, but I too am confused about 2 and 3. There have been some points made about the huge energy in the quantum vacuum curving space to the extent that the universe as we know it could not exist. Others have said that the nature of the ZPE would not curve space. This brings up interesting ideas! Suppose that the ZPE does not, in fact, curve space like normal mass or energy. However, if there was a way to use the ZPE to perform large amounts of work, one could say confidently that this extracted energy would, in fact, curve space. This doesn't seem very beautifull scientifically, especially if we live in an "open" universe. All we would need to do would be to extract enough energy from the vacuum and PRESTO! we would live in a closed and finite universe. So it seems to me that there are again three possibilites: 1. That the ZPE is too weak to curve space in the grand scheme of things. 2. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities but does not curve spacetime and it is not possible to use it to do any usefull work, in keeping with a kind of "conservation of total spacetime curvature" (C of E) 3. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities and can be extracted in huge quantities, and thus the very nature of the universe can be modified based on what we "mere mortals" do in the lab. As I said, this possibility doesn't seem too attractive. (to me anyway) Any thoughts? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 02:57:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04996; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:54:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:54:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34E915C4.3864 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:44:52 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Miles: Hansen, Jones References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E2 7F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PZBpV3.0.zD1.nnMwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: JONES/HANSEN Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:13:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:28:42 +-900 From: Melvin Miles Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: "'Vortex'" e-mail 02/17/98 To: Vortex I agree completely with Jed Rothwell's comments concerning Jones and Hansen (see Takahashi's TC troubles). I attended Dr. Takahashi's seminar at Texas A & M and totally support Jed's comments. Dr. Takahashi's large excess heat effect continued for many days and cannot be explained away by a thermocouple problem in spite of Hansen's delusions. It is obvious that Jones and Hansen have minds set in concrete against any possibility for valid excess heat measurements. They are experts at trashing any scientific work reporting excess heat and specialize in distortions and misrepresentations. Dr. Reiko Notoya of Hokkaido University has encountered similar problems with Jones and Hansen regarding false statements about her experiments. The following letter illustrates my viewpoint on this subject. Email and Letter 02/17/98 Dr. Melvin H. Miles The Institute of Applied Energy New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory 3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan 81-11-898-6391 - Phone 81-11-898-6390 - Fax miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - work February 17, 1998 Dr. Steven E. Jones Department of Physics and Astronomy Brigham Young University Provo, Utah 84602-5700 Dear Dr. Jones: I don't really understand how you can expect peace between us following your relentless attacks against my cold fusion results for the past six or seven years. I especially don't like the way this all began when you invited me to give a seminar at BYU in 1991. Instead of the normal seminar that I expected, this became a 3-hour inquisition by you and your co-workers. This was shortly followed by your distribution of written criticisms of my work based on my seminar. This was all highly improper conduct for a representative of a university towards an invited guest. Since I am also a member of the LDS church, I am disturbed by your calling as a Mormon Bishop. How can you be an example for religious standards when you indulge in scientific distortions and outright dishonesty? I know you try to present yourself as a very nice person, but your actions show a totally different character. It is really a shame that cold fusion had such a bad beginning. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons obviously needed much more time to check their results, yet you insisted on going public with your sloppy experiments that reported measurements of a few neutrons. This forced Fleischmann and Pons into that 1989 premature press conference. You were never able to reproduce your results, hence you became an aggressive critic of this field. It seems that you first wanted to claim credit for this discovery. When that failed, you then sought fame as a major cold fusion critic. In contrast to your activities in this field, I have simply tried to honestly report whatever results I obtained. In fact, my first publication covering six months of research reported no excess heat or any other anomalous effects. My early work was even cited in the notorious Energy Research Advisory Board (ERAB) report along with Cal Tech, MIT, and Harwell as a laboratory reporting no cold fusion effects. This was in 1989 during the same time period when you were claiming neutrons in your Nature publication. Cold fusion is a very difficult research field, but I am convinced that excess heat and nuclear products are present in some experiments. Because of your activities along with the vigorous opposition to cold fusion by many other critics, I am concerned that cold fusion research will dwindle away and that this potential new energy source will have to wait for future generations. Sincerely, Dr. Melvin H. Miles Guest Researcher - NHE Laboratory cc: President, Brigham Young University cc: Dr. Lee D. Hansen, Brigham Young University From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 04:41:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18593; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 04:37:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 04:37:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Experiment Suggestion Box Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 05:34:27 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3ba0$632028a0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZiBSh.0.JY4.5IOwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1750 K the space charge limited emission current from tungsten is 1.0E-4 amperes/cm^2. At 2000k 1.0E-3 amp/cm^2, and at 2,250 K 1.3E-2 amperes/cm^2. By placing a nickel wire (anode)through the center of a filament coil and monitoring the current at some voltage V a good indication of the temperature of the filament can be attained and used for power control. The Langmuir-Childs Law sets the current at about 1.5E-5*V^1.5 amperes at a given filament temperature. Although this requires an insulated feedthru for the "anode" or a floated filament supply, it also makes a good setup for gas discharge cleanup of the chamber, etc. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 11:04:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00490; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:52:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:52:05 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3bd5$1c0da110$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZZk_C.0.R7.InTwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >>considering putting the filament in a quartz tube as George suggested and Frederick Sparber replied: >NO! You will not get the H2 + W ----> 2 H effect or the K + W ---> K+ + e- >either. On top of that K aginst silica (quartz) forms >low melting akali silicates. Frederick, I'm not proposing that the filament would be in contact with the quartz tube, it would probably crack as well as giving the problems you suggest. It is only present to help keep the 2 H away from the metal oxide surfaces that are easily reduced. I agree that catalyst placement is a problem but perhaps the low melting alkali silicates would provide appropriate K vapor pressure. Frederick also wrote: >You can take a hint from the filament size that Mills used, and see that >the radiation/unit area was less than 45 watts/cm^2. >It you don't get the watts/cm^2 down to balance the heat absorption/flow of >you cell for the platinum you can kiss it goodbye too. :-) > Isn't it true that the filament running without problems when under vacuum shows that heat absorption/flow is not a problem. Scott wrote: > >>I assure you, my measurements are satisfactorily crude.... > In my student days at MIT RLE we used to say: You have to realize that this is only a first crude experiment- we can always follow up with more crude experiments. :-) George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 11:39:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09695; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:13 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Hot Filament (Ion) Gauges Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:31:29 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bda$a5835980$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007B_01BD3B9F.F9248180" Resent-Message-ID: <"CDsWW3.0.MN2.pOUwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BD3B9F.F9248180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.lesker.com/docs/lhot.html ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BD3B9F.F9248180 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Hot Filament (Ion) Gauges.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Hot Filament (Ion) Gauges.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.lesker.com/docs/lhot.html Modified=C0C48A02DA3BBD01E3 ------=_NextPart_000_007B_01BD3B9F.F9248180-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 11:43:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14941; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:35:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:35:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: ORBITER CURRENT AND VOLTAGE EXPERIMENTS Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:30:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bda$77e8d9a0$418cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD3B9F.CB8A01A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7mNdW3.0.Kf3.2QUwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD3B9F.CB8A01A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.cass.usu.edu/cass/aiaa_93/aiaa.html ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD3B9F.CB8A01A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=" ORBITER CURRENT AND VOLTAGE EXPERIMENTS.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=" ORBITER CURRENT AND VOLTAGE EXPERIMENTS.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cass.usu.edu/cass/aiaa_93/aiaa.html Modified=803F2569DA3BBD0120 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD3B9F.CB8A01A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 11:43:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09734; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:21 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: pryor-apl-68-1802 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:21:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bd9$3694b7e0$418cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0081_01BD3BA0.01C166A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"eZ0JH3.0.PN2.pOUwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01BD3BA0.01C166A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Data for reference pryor-apl-68-1802 Carbon-doped boron nitride cold cathodes RW Pryor=20 Applied Physics Letters 68(13), 1802 (1996). These results reflect what is believed to be the first observation of = electron emission from carbon-doped boron nitride (BN). The n-type BN = films were synthesized on n-type polycrystalline diamond on (100)Si = using reactive laser ablation. The electron emission current density = measured at room temperature shows a power law dependence. Emission = currents as high as 60 mA cm^-2 have been measured from 150 nm thick = n-type BN films on a 24 micron n-type polycrystalline diamond film on a = (100)Si substrate. These films show a current density/applied field = behavior indicative of negative electron affinity. Contributed by Roger W. Pryor from diamond1.physics.wayne.edu. on = Friday, April 26, 1996 1:44:34 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- If you are a registered user, and would like to help the journal improve = its references database, you can help by adding data to the database. = The author list may be incomplete; the abstract or title may be missing, = and the list of references cited by the article is probably absent or = incomplete.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- last updated September 9, 1997 9:32:32 PM. =A9 1996 The Materials Research Society=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01BD3BA0.01C166A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable pryor-apl-68-1802
 
Data for reference pryor-apl-68-1802

Carbon-doped boron nitride cold cathodes

RW Pryor=20

Applied Physics Letters 68(13), 1802 (1996).

These results reflect what is believed to be the first observation of = electron emission from carbon-doped boron nitride (BN). The n-type BN = films were=20 synthesized on n-type polycrystalline diamond on (100)Si using reactive = laser=20 ablation. The electron emission current density measured at room = temperature=20 shows a power law dependence. Emission currents as high as 60 mA cm^-2 = have been=20 measured from 150 nm thick n-type BN films on a 24 micron n-type = polycrystalline=20 diamond film on a (100)Si substrate. These films show a current = density/applied=20 field behavior indicative of negative electron affinity.

Contributed by Roger W. Pryor from diamond1.physics.wayne.edu. on = Friday,=20 April 26, 1996 1:44:34 PM

If you are a registered user, and would like to help the journal improve = its=20 references database, you can help by adding data to the database. The = author=20 list may be incomplete; the abstract or title may be missing, and the = list of=20 references cited by the article is probably absent or incomplete.=20
=20

last updated September 9, 1997 9:32:32 PM.

© 1996 The Materials Research Society

------=_NextPart_000_0081_01BD3BA0.01C166A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 11:53:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17162; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:47:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:47:27 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:43:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bdc$58807760$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"g0btY3.0.4C4.CbUwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: George Holz To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 4:02 AM Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 >Scott Little wrote: >>>considering putting the filament in a quartz tube as George suggested > >and Frederick Sparber replied: >>NO! You will not get the H2 + W ----> 2 H effect or the K + W ---> K+ + e- >>either. On top of that K aginst silica (quartz) forms >>low melting akali silicates. > >Frederick, >I'm not proposing that the filament would be in contact with >the quartz tube, it would probably crack as well as giving the >problems you suggest. As tough as quartz is (very low thermal expansion) it won't crack. It is a matter of trying to stay as close as possible to the BLP Protocol, with as few "artifacts" to contend with as possible. > It is only present to help keep the >2 H away from the metal oxide surfaces that are easily reduced. A good point, George, but the problem seems to be more one of keeping the filament from evaporating away as opposed to oxidation as first thought. >I agree that catalyst placement is a problem but perhaps the >low melting alkali silicates would provide appropriate K vapor >pressure. I think that Scott's plan of going to metallic Potassium after getting the filament life up to par is the best bet. >Frederick also wrote: >>You can take a hint from the filament size that Mills used, and see that >>the radiation/unit area was less than 45 watts/cm^2. >>It you don't get the watts/cm^2 down to balance the heat absorption/flow of >>you cell for the platinum you can kiss it goodbye too. :-) >> >Isn't it true that the filament running without problems when >under vacuum shows that heat absorption/flow is not a problem. I don't remember seeing the filament being ran alone or with reduced cartridge heater power, under vacuum at least for any time. >Scott wrote: >> >>>I assure you, my measurements are satisfactorily crude.... >> >In my student days at MIT RLE we used to say: >You have to realize that this is only a first crude experiment- >we can always follow up with more crude experiments. :-) I'll buy that. :-) Regards, Frederick > >George Holz george varisys.com >Varitronics Systems > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 12:59:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28471; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:52:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:52:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980217145105.0074480c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:51:05 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: hydrogen thyratrons Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"x781s3.0.ny6.CYVwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A In "Pulse Generators", G. N. Glasoe, 1948 in an article entitled "The Hydrogen Thyratron" by K.J. Germeshausen, I found: "A serious problem connected with the use of hydrogen in thyratrons is gas cleanup, or the disappearance of the gas during operation. Gas cleanup is caused mainly by the great chemical activity of hydrogen, which combines readily with many substances including, under certain conditions, the oxide cathode. Since the reducing action of hydrogen on the oxide cathode becomes serious at temperatures of about 900C, it is necessary to maintain the cathode temperature well below this value." Unfortunately the book does not say why oxide cathodes were used instead of tungsten. Judging by the high level of development the hydrogen thyratron had reached by 1948, I think we can assume that tungsten had been tried as a cathode and discarded in favor of the oxide cathode. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 13:12:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00998; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:05:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:05:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980217150538.00aead2c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:05:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: tungsten Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3UpqF1.0.UF.YkVwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I may have posted this before but it has caught my attention again: "At incandescence tungsten reacts with all gases, including nitrogen, but excepting the noble gases helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon." --from the 1970 Britannica article on tungsten. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 14:18:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11280; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:09:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:09:15 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Thermocouples Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:50:52 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bee$1e73c240$658cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3BB3.7214EA40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kw_D83.0.8m2.7gWwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3BB3.7214EA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.scruz.net/~jimnel/thermo.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3BB3.7214EA40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Thermocouples.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Thermocouples.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.scruz.net/~jimnel/thermo.html Modified=008A9907EE3BBD0111 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD3BB3.7214EA40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 14:27:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14412; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:19:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:19:18 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:15:40 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3bf1$94b5ee30$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"oXmV61.0.5X3.apWwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 2/17/98 at 2:20 PM I wrote: >>Isn't it true that the filament running without problems when >>under vacuum shows that heat absorption/flow is not a problem. > and Frederick Sparber replied: >I don't remember seeing the filament being ran alone or with reduced >cartridge heater power, under vacuum at least for any time. Hi Frederick, In run 10 the filament ran under vacuum for three hours with no resistance change at the same filament temperature that produced rapid resistance increase as soon as H2 was admitted. Similar but shorter periods are present in many runs including 11 and 12. When the filament was running at 30 watts its vacuum life was probably quite limited, that does not seem to be the case now. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 14:41:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19374; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:35:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:35:04 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Still Looking For TUNGSTEN HYDRIDES! :-) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:32:12 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bf3$e46a37e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0100_01BD3BB9.380B5FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"XncpB2.0.Wk4.M2Xwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BD3BB9.380B5FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TUNGSTEN COMPOUNDS Narrower Terms:=20 CALCIUM TUNGSTATES=20 LEAD TUNGSTATES=20 SCHEELITE=20 TUNGSTATES=20 TUNGSTEN CARBIDES=20 TUNGSTEN CHLORIDES=20 TUNGSTEN FLUORIDES=20 TUNGSTEN HALIDES=20 TUNGSTEN OXIDES=20 ZINC TUNGSTATES=20 Related Terms:=20 CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS=20 GROUP 6B COMPOUNDS=20 METAL COMPOUNDS=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BD3BB9.380B5FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 

TUNGSTEN COMPOUNDS

Narrower Terms:

CALCIUM TUNGSTATES=20
LEAD TUNGSTATES=20
SCHEELITE=20
TUNGSTATES=20
TUNGSTEN CARBIDES=20
TUNGSTEN CHLORIDES=20
TUNGSTEN FLUORIDES=20
TUNGSTEN HALIDES=20
TUNGSTEN OXIDES=20
ZINC TUNGSTATES=20

Related Terms:

CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS=20
GROUP 6B COMPOUNDS=20
METAL COMPOUNDS =
------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BD3BB9.380B5FE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 14:58:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23404; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:51:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:51:05 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:47:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3bf6$0eac2c00$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"3QzJI1.0.Uj5.NHXwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: George Holz To: vortex-L Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 7:25 AM Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 > >Hi Frederick, > >In run 10 the filament ran under vacuum for three hours with no >resistance change at the same filament temperature that produced rapid >resistance increase as soon as H2 was admitted. Similar but >shorter periods are present in many runs including 11 and 12. > >When the filament was running at 30 watts its vacuum life was >probably quite limited, that does not seem to be the case now. You got me stumped. All of the Manufacturers of Tungsten-Tungsten-Rhenium Thermopcouples that operate up to 3,000 Deg K say to "Use Hydrogen or Other Reducing Gases to Protect Them". All Of The Tungsten CVD processes use Hydrogen. I think Scott has created a Monster that eats Tungsten for Breakfast! :-) Regards, Frederick > >George Holz george varisys.com >Varitronics Systems > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 15:08:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18735; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:01:15 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:33:11 -0500 To: rmforall earthlink.net, koonin@caltech.edu, dg@cco.caltech.edu, collis netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, ationsphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, barry math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter@itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion transmutation.com, aki.@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF Resent-Message-ID: <"qn4hZ3.0.ba4.rQXwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob Bass has given a reexplaination of his QM CF theory. There are two points that I would bring up in addition to the fact that his theory, as is the case with all his Physics theories, appears to me to be total nonsense. The very large reduction of the Quantum Mechanical leaking time is obtained with a zpe calculation, >However, >I have rebutted this by including the ZPE uncertainty of the >position of the bound deuterons, and then repeating the >Bohm calculation, and get the leaking-time to be pico- >seconds!!! The problem here is that as far as I know Bob Bass has never done a valid second quantization calculation of anything and I see not even the slightest indication that he has any idea about how to do such a calculation. He uses non-standard Physics which totally invalidates the results of his theory. If he insists on using Physics radically different from the accepted version, then the first step would be to argue that he has developed a new physics and give the justifications and arguments for accepting his version over the traditional version. In addition, an important part of his calculation involves the "Madelung forces". I do not see any reason to believe that such forces are anything other pure fiction. Throughout his career of developing new Physics he has often invoked the "Madelung forces" as an explain all force and used it much the same as Joe Newman has used his gyroscopic particles to explain everything in Nature. I recall reading over his paper on the "Pyrosphere" many years ago. The Pyrosphere is just a ball lighting plasma. The Madelung force played an all important role in his theory. I did not have to read very far before it was obvious to me that his work was total nonsense. I could be wrong, but I see no reason to believe that Bob Bass' Physics work serves any useful purpose other than an incompetency indicator. If you think that there is anything valid there then you are incompetent in Physics. I would like to hear if there are any opinions to the contrary from anyone who sees themselves as competent in Physics. Any discussion of this should include comparing and contrasting his extensive "Madelung forces" work with the work of other innovators such as Joe Newman and his gyroscopic particles. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 15:31:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA32669; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:25:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:25:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34EA1C77.19C7 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:25:43 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FRamU1.0.M-7.hnXwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > (snip) I could be wrong, but I see no reason to believe that Bob Bass' Physics > work serves any useful purpose other than an incompetency indicator. If > you think that there is anything valid there then you are incompetent in > Physics. Well, golly, Larry, - if you put it that way, then I don't believe a thing about Bass' physics! :-) Frank Stenger PS: (And I don't even know what the theories are!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 16:05:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07935; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:53:23 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: hydrogen thyratrons Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:53:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3bff$35fec430$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"d4_-u3.0.qx1.nBYwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: >In "Pulse Generators", G. N. Glasoe, 1948 in an article entitled "The >Hydrogen Thyratron" by K.J. Germeshausen, I found: Ken Germeshausen is the first G of EG&G, a company well known for flash tubes, thyratrons and many other high tech devices. >"A serious problem connected with the use of hydrogen in thyratrons is gas >cleanup, or the disappearance of the gas during operation. Gas cleanup is >caused mainly by the great chemical activity of hydrogen, which combines >readily with many substances including, under certain conditions, the oxide >cathode. Since the reducing action of hydrogen on the oxide cathode >becomes serious at temperatures of about 900C, it is necessary to maintain >the cathode temperature well below this value." >Unfortunately the book does not say why oxide cathodes were used instead of >tungsten. Judging by the high level of development the hydrogen thyratron >had reached by 1948, I think we can assume that tungsten had been tried as >a cathode and discarded in favor of the oxide cathode. The oxide cathode is used for its low work function surface which provides the required electron emission currents at lower power/temperature than straight tungsten. For this reason it is used in almost all hot cathode tubes and many cold cathode/gas filled tubes.These cathodes are quite reactive chemically and are easily poisoned by contamination. I have a book titled " The Oxide Coated Cathode" if you are interested. The coatings usually consist of a mixture of alkali metal oxides formed in situ by thermal decomposition of the corresponding carbonates. In gas tubes they were often referred to as triple carbonate cathodes. The reaction with H2 at 900C is not surprising but should not be a problem for tungsten. It was probably easier to keep the cathode temperature low and use oxide cathodes than to waste the power required on a high temperature tungsten filament. Usually a tungsten filament would still be present in these tubes to heat the oxide coated cathode. The electrical separation from the filament was also sometimes convenient. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 16:16:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29454; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:04:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:04:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EA2542.4F39 interlaced.net> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:03:14 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: tungsten References: <3.0.1.32.19980217150538.00aead2c mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5Z6pf2.0.7C7.7MYwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > I may have posted this before but it has caught my attention again: > > "At incandescence tungsten reacts with all gases, including nitrogen, but > excepting the noble gases helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon." > > --from the 1970 Britannica article on tungsten. Well, Scott, what can we learn from the NASA NERVA nuclear rocket program: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Solid Core Nuclear Rockets--Rover/NERVA The US government began the Rover program in 1956 at the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory to develop a nuclear reactor suitable for operation as a nuclear rocket. In 1963, the Nuclear Engine for Rocket Vehicle Applications, NERVA, program was started to take the graphite based reactor built at Los Alamos and create a functioning rocket engine. The programs ran in parallel and involved Los Alamos, Westinghouse, Aerojet, and other industrial partners. The final engine tested used a core made of graphite rods 54 inches long, hexagonal in cross section with 0.75 inches across the flats, and with 19 holes running the full length of the rod. Click here (110K) for a schematic of a fuel element. The rod was a mixture of uranium/zirconium/carbide in a graphite matrix. Each flow hole was independently orificed to match the heat generation levels. During the years from 1956 to termination in 1971, the programs accomplished the following records: 1) Highest power - 4500 megawatts thermal power 2) 5500 degress Fahrenheit exhaust temperature 3) 250,000 pounds thrust 4) 850 seconds of specific impulse 5) 90 minutes of burn time 6) thrust to weight ratios of 3 to 4 In all, 23 tests were conducted at the Nevada Test Site at the Nuclear Rocket Development Station, NRDS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The propellant in the reactor was liquid-to-gas hydrogen. Too bad NASA didn't mix a bit of K into the fuel matrix - They might have had an "OU" nuclear reactor on their hands. :-) I wonder how graphite would perform as an H2 filament? If you have a constant-current power supply to handle the negative temp-resistance coefficient, you could check it out! Hey, secrete weapon - a quarter-million pound thrust hydrino jet! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 16:41:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03645; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:29:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:29:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EA1D9E.2872 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:30:38 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Hansen: Re: Miles: Hansen, Jones References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E 27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mtqZx1.0.tu.tjYwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Miles: Hansen, Jones -Reply Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:07:34 -0700 From: Lee HANSEN To: rmforall earthlink.net >>> Rich Murray 02/16/98 09:44pm >>> Subject: JONES/HANSEN Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:13:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:28:42 +-900 From: Melvin Miles Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: "'Vortex'" e-mail 02/17/98 To: Vortex I agree completely with Jed Rothwell's comments concerning Jones and Hansen (see Takahashi's TC troubles). I attended Dr. Takahashi's seminar at Texas A & M and totally support Jed's comments. Dr. Takahashi's large excess heat effect continued for many days and cannot be explained away by a thermocouple problem in spite of Hansen's delusions. [How about a thermocouple problem and poor stirring in the "calorimeter"?] It is obvious that Jones and Hansen have minds set in concrete against any possibility for valid excess heat measurements. [No, it is just that the only valid measurements that I know give zero excess heat.] They are experts at trashing any scientific work reporting excess heat [No, only unscientific work reporting excess heat.] and specialize in distortions and misrepresentations. [References? Details?] Dr. Reiko Notoya of Hokkaido University has encountered similar problems with Jones and Hansen regarding false statements about her experiments. [What are the details? References?] The following letter illustrates my viewpoint on this subject. Email and Letter 02/17/98 Dr. Melvin H. Miles The Institute of Applied Energy New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory 3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan 81-11-898-6391 - Phone 81-11-898-6390 - Fax miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - work February 17, 1998 Dr. Steven E. Jones Department of Physics and Astronomy Brigham Young University Provo, Utah 84602-5700 Dear Dr. Jones: I don't really understand how you can expect peace between us following your relentless attacks against my cold fusion results for the past six or seven years. I especially don't like the way this all began when you invited me to give a seminar at BYU in 1991. Instead of the normal seminar that I expected, this became a 3-hour inquisition by you and your co-workers. This was shortly followed by your distribution of written criticisms of my work based on my seminar. This was all highly improper conduct for a representative of a university towards an invited guest. Since I am also a member of the LDS church, I am disturbed by your calling as a Mormon Bishop. How can you be an example for religious standards when you indulge in scientific distortions and outright dishonesty? I know you try to present yourself as a very nice person, but your actions show a totally different character. It is really a shame that cold fusion had such a bad beginning. [I agree, but for different reasons.] Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons obviously needed much more time to check their results, [I agree.] yet you insisted on going public with your sloppy experiments that reported measurements of a few neutrons. This forced Fleischmann and Pons into that 1989 premature press conference. [I think it was actually the other way around.] You were never able to reproduce your results, hence you became an aggressive critic of this field. It seems that you first wanted to claim credit for this discovery. When that failed, you then sought fame as a major cold fusion critic. [I doubt that anyone will gain anything but a lot of email by being a critic of cold fusion.] In contrast to your activities in this field, I have simply tried to honestly report whatever results I obtained. In fact, my first publication covering six months of research reported no excess heat or any other anomalous effects. My early work was even cited in the notorious Energy Research Advisory Board (ERAB) report along with Cal Tech, MIT, and Harwell as a laboratory reporting no cold fusion effects. This was in 1989 during the same time period when you were claiming neutrons in your Nature publication. Cold fusion is a very difficult research field, but I am convinced that excess heat and nuclear products are present in some experiments. [I am not convinced of "excess heat" by any of the experiments I have seen, and remain a sceptic (that is different than an unbeliever) of those I have not seen because the presence of real excess heat would require a violation of the second law of thermodynamics or some new form of nuclear reaction.] Because of your activities along with the vigorous opposition to cold fusion by many other critics, I am concerned that cold fusion research will dwindle away and that this potential new energy source will have to wait for future generations. Sincerely, Dr. Melvin H. Miles Guest Researcher - NHE Laboratory cc: President, Brigham Young University cc: Dr. Lee D. Hansen, Brigham Young University [So that you are aware of it, I have asked the Chair of the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry to place a copy of this and your previous letter to the editor of J. Phys. Chem. in your application file for a faculty position in the department.] [Lee Hansen] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 17:09:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08565; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:04:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:04:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:56:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: tungsten In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980217150538.00aead2c mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-c_3B3.0.f52.5EZwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SO: run it cooler!!!! Carbon is not a bad idea.... On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Scott Little wrote: > I may have posted this before but it has caught my attention again: > > "At incandescence tungsten reacts with all gases, including nitrogen, but > excepting the noble gases helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon." > > --from the 1970 Britannica article on tungsten. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 17:09:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23176; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:02:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:02:31 -0800 From: "R. Wormus" Reply-To: "R. Wormus" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:55:35 -0700 Message-ID: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [040] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ProTech Subject: Entertainment: Darwin Awards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"CL_362.0.1g5.bCZwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Darwin Award nominees for 1997: NOMINEE #1: [San Jose Mercury News] An unidentified man, using a shotgun like a club to break a former girlfriend's windshield, accidentally shot himself to death when the gun discharged, blowing a hole in his gut. NOMINEE #2: [Kalamazoo Gazette] James Burns, 34, of Alamo, Mich., was killed in March as he was trying to repair what police described as a "farm-type truck." Burns got a friend to drive the truck on a highway while Burns hung underneath so that he could ascertain the source of a troubling noise. Burns' clothes caught on something, however, and the other man found Burns "wrapped in the drive shaft." NOMINEE #3: [Reuters, Mississauga, Ontario] A man cleaning a bird feeder on his balcony of his condominium apartment in this Toronto suburb slipped and fell 23 stories to his death, police said Monday. Stefan Macko, 55, was standing on a wheeled chair Sunday when the accident occurred, said Inspector D'Arcy Honer of the Peel regional police. "It appears the chair moved and he went over the balcony," Honer said. "It's one of those freakaccidents. No foul play is suspected." [pdm note: ya mean the bird was not even a suspect!!!] NOMINEE #4: [Hickory Daily Record] Ken Charles Barger, 47, accidentally shot himself to death in December in Newton, N.C., when, awakening to thesound of a ringing telephone beside his bed, he reached for the phone but grabbed instead a Smith & Wesson 38 Special, which discharged when he drew it to his ear. [pdm note: a clear argument for gun control, or at least stupidity testing.] NOMINEE #5: [UPI, Toronto] Police said a lawyer demonstrating thesafety of windows in a downtown Toronto skyscraper crashed through a pane with his shoulder and plunged 24 floors to his death. A police spokesman said Garry Hoy, 39, fell into the courtyard of the Toronto Dominion Bank Tower early Friday evening as he was explaining the strength of the building's windows to visiting law students. Hoy previously had conducted demonstrations of window strength according to police reports. Peter Lauwers, managing partner of the firm Holden Day Wilson, told the Toronto Sun newspaper that Hoy was "one of the best and brightest" members of the 200-man association. NOMINEE #6: [Bloomburg News Service] A terrible diet and a room with no ventilation are being blamed for the death of a man who was killed by his own gas. There was no mark on his body but autopsy showed large amounts of methane gas in his system. His diet had consisted primarily of beans and cabbage (and a couple of other things). It was just the right combination of foods. It appears that the man died in his sleep from breathing from the poisonous cloud that was hanging over his bed. Had he been outside or had his windows been opened, it wouldn't have been fatal. But the man was shut up in his near airtight bedroom. He was "... a big man with a huge capacity for creating [this deadly gas]." Three of the rescuers got sick and one was hospitalized. NOMINEE #7: [San Jose Mercury News] A 24-year-old salesman from Hialeah, Fla., was killed near Lantana, Fla., in March when his car smashed into a pole in the median strip of Interstate 95 in the middle of the afternoon. Police said that the man was traveling at 80 MPH and, judging by the sales manual that was found open and clutched to his chest, had been busy reading. NOMINEE #8: ["The Indianapolis Star"]. A Jay County man using a cigarette lighter to check the barrel of a muzzleloader was killed Monday night when the weapon discharged in his face, sheriff's investigators said. [The 19 year old man] died in his parents' rural Dunkirk home [while] cleaning a54-caliber muzzleloader that had not been firing properly. He was using thelighter to look into the barrel when the gunpowder ignited. NOMINEE #9: [Reuters, Warsaw, Poland] A poacher electrocuting fish in a lake in central Poland fell into the water and suffered the same fate a his quarry, police said Thursday. The 24-year-old man was one of four who went fishing with a cable, one end of which they attached to a net and the other to a high-voltage electricity supply line, the PAPnews agency quoted a police official as saying. "For a while everything went according to the poachers' plan and they had fish in their bags. But at a certain moment the man holding the net tripped and fell into the water," the agency said. NOMINEE #10: [AP, St. Louis] Robert Puelo, 32, was apparently being disorderly in a St. Louis market. When the clerk threatened to call police, Puelo grabbed a hot dog, shoved it in his mouth, and walked out without paying for it. Police found him [lying] in front of the store: paramedics removed the six-inch wiener from his throat, where it had choked him to death. NOMINEE #11: [Unknown] The poacher Marino Malerba, who shot a stag standing above him on an overhanging rock and was killed instantly when it fell on him. NOMINEE #12: [Fort Worth Star-Telegram] Three men attempting to steal copper wire off live electrical lines for resale were electrocuted. Copper wiring is a valuable scrap metal in Texas but is usually stolen from electric cables not being used. Here are some people that may be future nominees/winners, but still haven't made it to the "Big Leagues" (i.e., still in the gene pool): [ note: edited these to keep them brief.] [UPI, Portland, OR] Doctors at Portland's University Hospital said Wednesday that an Oregon man shot through the skull by a hunting arrow is lucky to be alive. Tony Roberts, 25, lost his right eye last weekend during an initiation into a men's rafting club Mountain Men Anonymous. A friend tried to shoot a beer can off his head, but the arrow entered Roberts' right eye. Roberts admitted afterwards that he and his friends had been drinking that afternoon. Said Roberts, "I feel so dumb about this." [Associated Press, Kincaid, W. VA] A man at a party popped a blasting cap into his mouth and bit down, triggering an explosion that blew off his lips, teeth and tongue, state police said Wednesday. Jerry Stromyer, 24, of Kincaid, bit the blasting cap as a prank during a party late Tuesday night, aid Cpl. M.D. Payne. "Another man had it in an aquarium, hooked to a battery, and was trying to explode it, "Payne said. "It wouldn't go off and this guy said, 'I'll show you how to set it off.'" [Arkansas Democrat Gazette, July 25, 1996] Two local men were seriously injured when their pickup truck left the road and struck a tree. The accident occurred as the two men were returning to Des Arc after a frog gigging trip. On an overcast Sunday night, the pick-up truck headlights malfunctioned. The two men concluded that the headlight fuse on the older model truck had burned out. As a replacement fuse was not available, the passenger noticed that a .22 caliber bullet from his pistol fit perfectly into the fusebox next to the steering wheel column. Upon inserting the bullet, the headlights again began to operate properly. After traveling approximately 20 miles and just before crossing a bridge, the bullet apparently overheated, discharged and struck the driver in the right testicle. The vehicle swerved sharply to the right exiting the pavement and striking a tree. The driver suffered only minor cuts and abrasions from the accident, but will require surgery to repair the other wound. The passenger sustained a broken clavicle. After being released he stated, "Thank God we weren't on that bridge when Thurston shot his nuts off or we might both be dead." And now, for this year's illustrious winner(s): ... drum roll... John Pernicky and friend Sal Hawkins, of the great state of Washington, decided to attend a local Metallica concert at the Amphitheater at Gorge, Washington. Having no tickets (but 18 beers among them) they sat in the parking lot, and after finishing the beer, decided that it would be easy enough to hop over the nine-foot high fence and sneak into the show. The two friends pulled their pickup truck over to the fence and the plan was for John--100 pounds heavier than Sal-to hop over, and then assist his friend over the fence. Unfortunately for John, there was a 30 foot drop on the other side of the fence. Having heaved himself over, he found himself crashing through a tree. His fall was abruptly halted by a large branch, which snagged him by his shorts. Dangling from the tree, with one arm broken, John looked down and saw a group of bushes below him. Figuring the bushes would break his fall, John removed his pocket knife and proceeded to cut away his shorts to free himself from the tree. When finally free, John crashed below into Holly bushes. The sharp leaves scratched his entire body and now being without his shorts, he was the unwilling victim of a holly branch penetrating his rectal cavity. To make matters worse, his pocket knife proceeded to fall with him and landed three inches into his left thigh. Seeing his friend in considerable pain and agony, Sal decided to throw him a rope and pull him to safety. However, weighing about 100 pounds less, he decided the best course of action would be to tie the rope to the pickup truck. This is when things went from bad to worse. In his drunken state, Sal put the truck into the wrong gear, pressed on the gas, and crashed through the fence, landing on and killing his friend. Sal was thrown from the truck, suffered massive internal injuries and also died at the scene. Police arrived to find a pickup truck with its driver thrown 100 feet from the vehicle and upon moving the truck, a half naked man, with numerous scratches, a holly stick up his butt, a knife in his thigh, and a pair of shorts dangling from the tree branches 25 feet in the air. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 17:11:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24577; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:07:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:07:47 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re; BLP Run 12 at 30 watts Filament Power? Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:04:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c09$23b245e0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"aLvMc3.0.e_5.THZwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Going by an emissivity of 0.265 and a surface area of 0.1 cm^2 at 30 watts input power: T = [30/(0.1*0.265*5.672E-12)]^0.25 = 3759 K! Tungsten melts at 3680 K. But does it run? :-) So figuring 20% conduction and emitted electron evaporation heat loss = 24 watts to radiate: T = [24/(0.1*0.265*5.672E-12)]^0.25 = 3555 K That puts the resistance at 20 times room temp or about 10 ohms. The emitted electron current at about 25 amperes and the evaporation loss at about 7.5E-4 grams/second. Small wonder that the filament doesn't last long when hydrogen is admitted and brings some oxygen of the walls to finish it off. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 18:10:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04787; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:05:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:05:10 -0800 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:59:59 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Hiring policy violation Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802172103_MC2-33B6-DAAC compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"fS0cG1.0.cA1.J7awq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net; >INTERNET:miles nhelab.iae.or.jp True to form, Lee Hanson wrote: So that you [Melvin Miles] are aware of it, I have asked the Chair of the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry to place a copy of this and your previous letter to the editor of J. Phys. Chem. in your application file for a faculty position in the department. Apparently, Hansen has deliberately revealed to the general public that Miles applied for a faculty position, which is a gross violation of privacy. Either that or his he is circulating a falsehood, which would be libelous. I do not know the policies at the BYU, but in private industry or the Federal government this would be a serious matter. People who are allowed access to employment application files, salary and other personnel information are supposed to keep such information strictly private. Rich Murray is also acting irresponsibly when he mindlessly spams this kind of garbage. Murray never pauses to ask himself whether the skeptical bullshit he circulates has any scientific merit. He will instantly post any allegation of cheating made by Dick Blue. Now we see that he is blind to common decency and business ethics. Elsewhere, Hanson writes: No, it is just that the only valid measurements that I know give zero excess heat. Here, Hansen admits that he has not read the cold fusion literature. (Not "admits;" I should say he brags.) He knows nothing about the work of people like McKubre, Storms or Miles. He refuses to look at the evidence and then he claims that he has not seen it. He will look at personnel files, and blab about them, but he cannot bring himself to read the peer-reviewed scientific literature. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 19:45:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19346; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:39:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:39:39 -0800 From: "Paul Brown" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:38:10 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c1e$a2396dc0$8aa89bcf isonix> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"LIHhi3.0.3k4.sVbwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: May be of help? If you consider the problem of producing beams of hydrogen atoms in borosilicate glass using electrodeless radiofrequency discharge sources for atomic beam experiments. Very poor dissociation (on the order of 10%) is achieved if you put moderately clean H2 into a clean vessel. However, if you add a few percent O2 to the gas the dissociation improves (to the order of 50%). Further, if you remove the H2 altogether and runs a discharge in O2 for a few minutes, then remove the O2 and replace it with H2, the dissociation fraction commonly reaches 90% or more and the source continues to operate for up to several hours at high dissociation (Chemical Reactions in Electrical Discharges, 1969, p. 14). Although you are using a metal enclosure, possibly the same conditioning would apply. Paul Brown From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 20:07:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21940; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:47:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:47:50 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD3BED.6A723740 pm3-145.gpt.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: ZPE Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:42:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD3BED.6A830020" Resent-Message-ID: <"ODxKs2.0.aM5.Zdbwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD3BED.6A830020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Jay Olson [SMTP:olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu] Sent: Monday, February 16, 1998 9:54 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ZPE >Any thoughts? >JAY OLSON Has anyone thought of this: Maybe ZPF (zero point flux) doesn't warp = spacetime, because maybe, just maybe, ZPF IS spacetime. If so, that = would explain a great many things (such as inertia, centrifugal force = (or pseudogravity), magnetic fields warping space (strange but true), = and frame dragging) quite simply. Maybe we can't tap ZPE to run things, = but maybe we can warp it (or spacetime) to allow antigravity or 'space = drives'. That I am very interested in. Kyle R. Mcallister ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD3BED.6A830020 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjMDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAoAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABQAAAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAIB 918BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20AU01U UAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAC CVYBBIABAAgAAABSRTogWlBFAOABAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcCABEAEQAqABMAAgA4AQEggAMADgAAAM4H AgARABEAIQAsAAIASAEBCYABACEAAAA3OTE5MEQ0MkJDQTdEMTExQTc1RUU4RTAwQUMxMDAwMAAR BwEDkAYAOAYAACEAAAALAAIAAQAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2 AAAAAABAADkAoH3Br/07vQEeAHAAAQAAAAgAAABSRTogWlBFAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG9O/2vsEIN GXqnvBHRp17o4ArBAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAXAAAAc3RrQHN1bmhl cmFsZC5pbmZpLm5ldAAAAwAGEK0l/sYDAAcQIQIAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAC0tLS0tT1JJR0lOQUxN RVNTQUdFLS0tLS1GUk9NOkpBWU9MU09OU01UUDpPTFNPMzU2MkBOT1ZFTExVSURBSE9FRFVTRU5U Ok1PTkRBWSxGRUJSVUFSWTE2LDE5OTg5OjU0UE0AAAAAAgEJEAEAAAAsAwAAKAMAAH0EAABMWkZ1 GkdQDgMACgByY3BnMTI1FjIA+Atgbg4QMDMznQH3IAKkA+MCAGNoCsDgc2V0MCAHEwKDAFChEHZw cnEyEXZ9CoDZCMggOwlvDjA1AoAKgex1YwBQCwNjEhILxQqxhwqECoQLMGxpMzYBQFcWkBcxA2B0 BZB0EgQxqDYgLRoCTwUQZwuAhwdABdAHkHNhZ2UaAx8XRhkUFzMLMRkWaS0xjDQ0AUAYYDE4MAFA owzQHaNiIEYDYToMgwJiEWBKYXkgT2wCcwIgIFtTTVRQBjoG8CAgMzU2MkAAbm92ZWxsLnVAaWRh aG8uCYB1vl0XRR7QBmACMB83TQIgCSHgeSwe4GVicnUPCsAf4BnQJDAxOTk4ACA5OjU0IFBNKSJ3 VG8fN3YJEWV46C1sQAeQawdwIhAFoGJtInh1YmoZQR83UsBlOiBaUEUbrxy6zxhkFtwWkirGID4Y uhFwCm4f4HQiAHVnaHQccz8XSy1vLnhKQVlhH/BMU09OMKsXSkhWYQQgAHB5AiBlL0YgXG9mL0EE ACoATR/QYkM1ECogRiAoegSQbzggcG8LgAVADvB1eJApIGRvB5BuJwVAoncKwHAgcwqwYxFARwdx JDA2cGNhdREwIPcAwDZhJDBqOcAFQDoFNqL2SQXwONcuO2A1wCAgJDCNL1BhOGEIYGxkICdg+wtT NLAgCcE84QOBLzILgNJnBCAocxYAaDSwBCD3C4AEkDkgYSQwOQACMAaBdy+AGrECEHI5ADbQBbFw DREwdTgACcBhdml0bHkpJDAAwGc1ADkgY/83kAiQPUAEIDiCPuE4xD8h50CADxE1EGJ1BUBAgApQ 70KBAHA9UANQYQeAN/BCIOpnGoFnN+BxIcAZMDjA2wdwC1B5PDA2RHc1EDmg/zhCAZA4sCohL0A3 ICSAA6D/PsQ5YUUxOgNIRTh0QlBBY/841zfgSWEHQAkAB+AAcDkgt0IVNaAFwCdENEZwaSFwVHMn PDBUPNJJNLBt/ycQBJAf4DdhBJAHkBkwPVBFC4AuF0pLeWw1EFL/R9E5oCGQBABQYRi7F1kTgQIA VMADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwANt5fPw7vQFAAAgwANt5fPw7vQELAACACCAG AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAA AwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAALcNAAADAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAB hQAAAAAAAB4AE4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAALABeACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAGIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAa gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeACmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAA AQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAqgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AK4AI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMA DTT9NwAAnVw= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD3BED.6A830020-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 20:34:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28759; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:09:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:09:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:03:40 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: RE: ZPE In-Reply-To: <01BD3BED.6A723740 pm3-145.gpt.infi.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"cEcWA2.0.C17.3ybwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Please see flagged note, below in text; On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jay Olson [SMTP:olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu] > Sent: Monday, February 16, 1998 9:54 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: ZPE > > >Any thoughts? > > >JAY OLSON > > Has anyone thought of this: Maybe ZPF (zero point flux) doesn't warp = > spacetime, because maybe, just maybe, ZPF IS spacetime. If so, that = > would explain a great many things (such as inertia, centrifugal force = > (or pseudogravity), -------------------- FLAG: magnetic fields warping space (strange but true), Why is this stange? --------------------------------- AND: Make me up a 2 gram vial of ZPF or ZPE, please.... With all the myriad things it is claimed to do, we could probably sell it! -------------------------- = > and frame dragging) quite simply. Maybe we can't tap ZPE to run things, = > but maybe we can warp it (or spacetime) to allow antigravity or 'space = > drives'. That I am very interested in. > > Kyle R. Mcallister > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 21:33:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12965; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:18:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:18:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: freenrg-L eskimo.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:13:27 -0800 Subject: Re: ZPE Message-ID: <19980217.211330.12038.5.tv juno.com> References: <01BD3BED.6A723740 pm3-145.gpt.infi.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-5,7-9,11-15 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"XOb-G1.0.EA3.Kycwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Kyle R. Mcallister said: >Maybe we can't tap ZPE to run things, = but maybe we can warp it (or spacetime) to >allow antigravity or 'space = drives'. And then again, maybe we can do both ! How about a ZPE powered spacecraft with a ZPE reaction field (or space warp) drive ? I wouldn't be surprised if they already exist. I will christen my first one the U.S.S. Hal Puthoff. : ) Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 21:44:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17589; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:37:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:37:28 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:37:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: ZPE Priority: normal References: <01BD3BED.6A723740 pm3-145.gpt.infi.net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <60023B5208 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"0w09v1.0.jI4.NEdwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > > Has anyone thought of this: Maybe ZPF (zero point flux) doesn't warp > > spacetime, because maybe, just maybe, ZPF IS spacetime. If so, that > > would explain a great many things (such as inertia, centrifugal force > > (or pseudogravity), magnetic fields warping space (strange but true), > > and frame dragging) quite simply. Maybe we can't tap ZPE to run things, > > but maybe we can warp it (or spacetime) to allow antigravity or 'space > > drives'. That I am very interested in. > > > > Kyle R. Mcallister There's no problem with warping spacetime. I'm firmly planted in my chair because of it. The problem seems to be that spacetime only curves for you when you have huge amounts of mass or energy. Perhaps these "antigravity superconductor" experiments will spell the end of the general relativity model of gravitation and you can get by with only small amounts of mass and energy. But it seems to me that these experiments are the late 20th century equivalent of the photoelectric effect. We see something but don't know how to explain it. We know that what we are seeing shouldn't be allowed by the existing theory. What we really need is Einstein with a nice little equation like E=hf. :-) JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 22:04:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23272; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:55:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:55:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980217235410.008887d0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:54:10 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run 12 at 30 watts Filament Power? In-Reply-To: <01bd3c09$23b245e0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"WJTo6.0.Xh5.rUdwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:04 PM 2/17/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Going by an emissivity of 0.265 and a surface area of 0.1 cm^2 at 30 watts >input power: > >T = [30/(0.1*0.265*5.672E-12)]^0.25 = 3759 K! Actual filament power is 10 watts (see Run 12 description). Actual resistance ratio is in the neighborhood of 10...i.e. a mean filament temp of 1800C (until the erosion sets in). Filament is a 0.030" OD coil of 0.005" dia wire, about 30 turns closely spaced...perhaps one wire diameter spacing between turns. About 2 inches of wire in all. Room temperature resistance is about 0.46 ohms. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 17 23:35:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03735; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:21:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:21:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980218072016.006ad92c atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:20:16 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: John Schnurer Receives Unflattering Coverage in Wired Article Resent-Message-ID: <"hgeQT2.0.Hw.7mewq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Check the latest issue of Wired (March 1998). The article begins on page 171: "Breaking the Law of Gravity" by Charles Platt. If John would like to comment, I'd like to hear his side. In John's defense, it does seem clear from the rest of the article that the article's author, Platt, has a habit of describing almost everything, even inanimate objects, in very negative terms. But even so, John seems to get the overall worst treatment, being allegedly debunked as a deluded True Believer by a mere photographer who accompanied Platt for the meeting with John. Dr. Noever at Nasa gets better treatment in the article, even though he seems to have also gotten some positive results regarding the Podkletnov effect. I guess the difference is that Noever has a PhD and a position at Nasa, whereas John has neither, which makes him an easier target for those looking for a target. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 00:51:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10632; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:45:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 00:45:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 01:45:02 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Butch - Anton - Greg/RMOG/SMOT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"byzcx1.0.zb2.s-fwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Butch & Anton (et al...) Making a blue-hole where you want it, making it Double in strength, or cutting it's effect in 1/2 (depending on what your doing). in the round! The recent simple experiment that greg just ran by us, concerning dropping a steel rod - through a coil - on top of the foam pad got me to thinking too about your quest in rotary design. Up & down of the rod dropping through the one coil = changed to two coils (side to side) with one rod :) ------ note: there is an engine called a 'sterling' or silver EXTERNAL combustion engine that i think may even be in use by nasa, (will check on that).. anyway it is two (2) balanced chambers with one (1) piston going back and forth (using the sun if i recall for power! someone out there, I'm sure will update me or correct this.) ------ This seems like an ideal design for full coil load / or STORAGE / for both of your designs. Out of the way of the magnet OR the cuircut back feed. The interesting thing here is that the Null point or Blue-Hole would be in the dead-CENTER at all times, and the movement of the piston/or rod/or armature would have the advantage of the full swinging effect or STRENGTH of a pendulum. While most balanced systems will NOT work, (eventually seeking zero/center), the sterling or silver (whatever) just uses the least bit of heat to offset the rod stroke. (in your cases, the least bit of electrical coil differential). power stored in each end. So, I guess I suggesting something like a BMW motercycle Left/Right piston effect (or Left/Right Coil on/off), while you both pursue your rotary designs. This would NOT need super-quick switches to handle the coil feeds, as the momentum of the rod stroke would have the KE to move past the Center Null area. (full stroke power at blue-hole area / instead of area to overcome )o/u(. so trouble area(s) go FROM end to end as in "*N--------S*" this stops all balanced systems. TO a simplier (in the middle) single spot ie "N----*----S" where "*" is the null-point (true null point again) ^\ ascii (sigh) would be 180 degrees of rotation "N----*----S" \ v this should always Double (or 1/2) any balanced flux argument; the Blue-hole or release would either totally be (N or S) or in the left/or/right coil! of course, this still looks pretty balanced, but I hear the sterling design does work. thoughts? (just one of mine - hope it will fit in what your doing) -=se=- ekwall2 diac.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 04:51:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04654; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:47:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:47:25 -0800 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:47:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF In-Reply-To: <34EA1C77.19C7 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"trV7w3.0.d81.RXjwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Er, Vo, > Larry Wharton wrote: > > > (snip) > > I could be wrong, but I see no reason to believe that Bob Bass' Physics > > work serves any useful purpose other than an incompetency indicator. If > > you think that there is anything valid there then you are incompetent in > > Physics. > 'Incontinent in physics' to coin an expression. Heh, heh, heh. Mischeviously, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 05:45:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29020; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:19:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:19:51 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 at 30 watts Filament Power? Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:50:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c63$58fc4ac0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-LKtO3.0.H57.r_jwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 3:01 PM Subject: BLP Run 12 at 30 watts Filament Power? >At 06:04 PM 2/17/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>Going by an emissivity of 0.265 and a surface area of 0.1 cm^2 at 30 watts >>input power: >> >>T = [30/(0.1*0.265*5.672E-12)]^0.25 = 3759 K! > >Actual filament power is 10 watts (see Run 12 description). Yes. Then the temp should be: T = [10/(0.5*0.265*5.672E-12)]^0.25 = 1910 K that's close enough. :-) >Actual >resistance ratio is in the neighborhood of 10...i.e. a mean filament temp >of 1800C (until the erosion sets in). The erosion should be about 1.76E-13 g/cm^2 sec at 2000 K. The actual resistance for pure W at 2000 K based on 2" long by 0.005" dia wire: R = rho*L/area = 2.27 ohms, indicating a resistance ratio of 5 rather than 10, giving one pause to wonder if the filaments being used are a W alloy that is susceptible to vigorous reaction with Hydrogen? Filament is a 0.030" OD coil of >0.005" dia wire, about 30 turns closely spaced...perhaps one wire diameter >spacing between turns. About 2 inches of wire in all. I get about 1/2 cm^2 radiation surface area, at least from this. Room temperature >resistance is about 0.46 ohms. Then it should be 4.6 ohms at 2000 K, but,it calculates out to 2.27 ohms based on the wire dimensions given (2" long x 0.005" dia)? A tungsten-molybdenum alloy or such, that H2 attacks? Regards, Frederick > > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 >512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) >little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 05:57:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02742; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:49:51 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:49:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:46:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802181346.HAA24948 dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: little eden.com Resent-Message-ID: <"a9Ey93.0.jg.yRkwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, you wrote in part: >--- wondering about why my filament seems to radiate more power than >Fred's figures indicate it should, --- A suggestion: The filament, while oxidizing at the same time, was undergoing an exothermic reaction that added to Fred's figures, -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 06:22:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23231; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:17:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:17:13 -0800 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:11:21 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: John Schnurer Receives Unflattering Coverage in Wired Article In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980218072016.006ad92c atlantic.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GKxQR2.0.rg5.crkwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., I defend Charles' Platt's right to carefully research and report his findings. Please read ALL of the papers on www.gravity.org AND the papers on Pete Skegg's gravity site, there is a link. Then re read the article. I would then please ask anyone who has done this to comment. On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Kurt Johmann wrote: > Check the latest issue of Wired (March 1998). The article begins on page > 171: "Breaking the Law of Gravity" by Charles Platt. > > If John would like to comment, I'd like to hear his side. > > In John's defense, it does seem clear from the rest of the article that > the article's author, Platt, has a habit of describing almost everything, > even inanimate objects, in very negative terms. But even so, John seems > to get the overall worst treatment, being allegedly debunked as a deluded > True Believer by a mere photographer who accompanied Platt for the > meeting with John. > > Dr. Noever at Nasa gets better treatment in the article, even though he > seems to have also gotten some positive results regarding the Podkletnov > effect. I guess the difference is that Noever has a PhD and a position > at Nasa, whereas John has neither, which makes him an easier target for > those looking for a target. > > > Kurt Johmann > -- > > JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 06:24:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08209; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:12:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:12:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EADEA7.1CF3 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:14:15 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues, tournament of replication References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34 E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G8qcR1.0.B02.ankwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Feb. 18, 1998 [Comment by Rich Murray: I am reposting this, since Rothwell has raised a valid issue of ethics, which didn't even occur to me when I reposted Hansen's post. I apologize to Dr. Miles, and to the network. My policy has been to facilitate debate by posting rather uncritically posts by both extremes of the debate, trusting in the overall competence of the network to sort out the helpful from the partisan verbiage and the occasional back and forth bouts of portrayal by tar brush-- also a basically unethical, making objective assessment very difficult. The best model of civil deportment has been exemplified by the Arata debate among Carrell, Shanahan, and Murray. Let's adhere to a high standard of civility. In my book, it's OK to say, "I think you're in error on this specific point," or, "My opinion is that you're prejudiced, and here is a specific comment by you that shows this." But to demonize the other, even if that is your private projection, lowers the practical utility of the debate. The real issue can only be decided on the tournament field of independent replication. If Miles, McKubre, Storms, Swartz, Bush, Arata, CETI, BLP, and many others in fact are confident that they are achieveing excess heat and transmutation in specific, currently operating cells, then arrange to have Scott Little and Hal Puthoff test them. [little eden.com, puthoff@aol.com] Their calorimetry and tests are available to all, virtually on a daily basis, on their web page. [http://www.eden.com/~little/] This is the level of openness that would allow a rapid cooperative scientific process to sort out the wheat from the chaff in this field. Without essentially real-time replication, there can be no scientific progress in this field. It will continue to be "undead", a dull and dismal limbo of verbiage. Any knights lined up for this joist?] Subject: Hiring policy violation Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:59:59 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net; >INTERNET:miles nhelab.iae.or.jp True to form, Lee Hanson wrote: So that you [Melvin Miles] are aware of it, I have asked the Chair of the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry to place a copy of this and your previous letter to the editor of J. Phys. Chem. in your application file for a faculty position in the department. Apparently, Hansen has deliberately revealed to the general public that Miles applied for a faculty position, which is a gross violation of privacy. Either that or his he is circulating a falsehood, which would be libelous. I do not know the policies at the BYU, but in private industry or the Federal government this would be a serious matter. People who are allowed access to employment application files, salary and other personnel information are supposed to keep such information strictly private. Rich Murray is also acting irresponsibly when he mindlessly spams this kind of garbage. Murray never pauses to ask himself whether the skeptical bullshit he circulates has any scientific merit. He will instantly post any allegation of cheating made by Dick Blue. Now we see that he is blind to common decency and business ethics. Elsewhere, Hanson writes: No, it is just that the only valid measurements that I know give zero excess heat. Here, Hansen admits that he has not read the cold fusion literature. (Not "admits;" I should say he brags.) He knows nothing about the work of people like McKubre, Storms or Miles. He refuses to look at the evidence and then he claims that he has not seen it. He will look at personnel files, and blab about them, but he cannot bring himself to read the peer-reviewed scientific literature. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:17:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14914; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:13:46 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:13:46 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Cryogenic Targets Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:01:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c7e$07d53100$728cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01BD3C44.99727620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"c6Oyy2.0.ye3.eglwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BD3C44.99727620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Titanium hydride is evil, nasty shit and I'll never work with it again! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- --- Prof. N.R. Roberson (Duke U.), paraphrasing Dr. W. Heeringa = (Karlsruhe).=20 ckeith iucf.indiana.edu=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BD3C44.99727620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cryogenic Targets
 

Titanium hydride is evil, nasty shit and I'll never work with it = again!

--- Prof. N.R. Roberson (Duke U.), paraphrasing Dr. W. Heeringa = (Karlsruhe).=20
ckeith iucf.indiana.edu
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BD3C44.99727620-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:19:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14881; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:13:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: AEE - TITANIUM HYDRIDE TiH2 49 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:55:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c7d$493301a0$728cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C42.9CD429A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q9TFZ.0.Oe3.Wglwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C42.9CD429A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A B C D E F G H I K L M N O P R S T U V X Y Z Order Frames OFF / ON Periodic Table =20 AEE Home Page Phone 800 486-2436 Fax 201 387-0291 =20 =20 =20 TITANIUM HYDRIDE TiH2 49.90 =20 CAS=20 7704-98-5 =20 Melting Point =B0C=20 600 =20 Density G/Cm3=20 3.9 =20 Ti %=20 95.95 =20 H %=20 4.05 =20 *UN 1871, Class 4.1, Flammable Solid, PG II =20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Catalog Product Description Purity Particle Cost Per Pound =20 No. =20 % Size 1-2 3-10=20 11-25 26-100 =20 TI-251* titanium hydride powder 99.7 -200 mesh 66.00 45.54 42.35 40.23 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C42.9CD429A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AEE - TITANIUM HYDRIDE TiH2 = 49
 

A=20 B = C D E F G H I K L M N O P R S T U V X Y Z

Order

Frames=20 OFF / = ON

Periodic=20 Table

AEE = Home=20 Page

Phone 800 486-2436

Fax 201 = 387-0291

 

TITANIUM=20 HYDRIDE   TiH2=20 49.90

CAS

7704-98-5

Melting Point °C

600

Density G/Cm3

3.9

Ti %

95.95

H %

4.05

*UN 1871, Class 4.1, = Flammable=20 Solid, PG II

 

Catalog

Product Description

Purity

Particle

Cost Per Pound

No.

 

%

Size

1-2

3-10

11-25

26-100

TI-251*

titanium hydride powder

99.7

-200 mesh

66.00

45.54

42.35

40.23

 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C42.9CD429A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:26:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16481; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:20:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:20:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Themo-Calc Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:44:59 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c6b$06746320$628cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BD3C30.702658E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"DDHDQ3.0.P14.Onlwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BD3C30.702658E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.met.kth.se/cgi-bin/tc-eq ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BD3C30.702658E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Themo-Calc.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Themo-Calc.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.met.kth.se/cgi-bin/tc-eq Modified=409D1FF26A3CBD0152 ------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01BD3C30.702658E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 07:48:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19503; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Titanium - from Goodfellow Cambridge Limited, Catalogue Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3c77$4c5d4e40$418cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C3C.9FFE7640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"tAA4Q2.0.em4.a0mwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C3C.9FFE7640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tungsten/Titanium W 95/Ti 5=20 Click here for more information: Metals, alloys, compounds, ceramics, polymers, and composites for research, design and industry =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Physical Properties=20 Melting Point 3300 =B0C=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Magnetic Properties=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Electrical Properties=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Thermal Properties=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Mechanical Properties=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- See products available in these standard forms: Powder=20 =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Goodfellow Cambridge Limited Cambridge Science Park Cambridge GB-CB4 4DJ England =20 info goodfellow.com =20 Catalogue build 1/9/98 4:57:53 PM Goodfellow GmbH Postfach 13 43 D-61213 Bad Nauheim Germany Goodfellow Corporation 800 Lancaster Avenue Berwyn, PA 19312-1780 USA =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C3C.9FFE7640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tungsten/Titanium - from Goodfellow = Cambridge Limited, Catalogue
 

Tungsten/Titanium

W 95/Ti 5

3DGoodfellow=20

Click=20 here for more information:

Metals, alloys, compounds, ceramics, polymers,
and = composites=20 for research, design and = industry

Physical=20 Properties
Melting=20 Point 3300=20 °C
Magnetic=20 Properties
Electrical=20 Properties
Thermal=20 Properties
Mechanical=20 Properties

See products available in these standard=20 forms:

Powder
3D"Metals,

Goodfellow Cambridge=20 Limited
Cambridge Science = Park
Cambridge
GB-CB4=20 4DJ
England

info@goodfellow.com

Catalogue= =20 build
1/9/98 4:57:53 PM

Goodfellow GmbH
Postfach = 13=20 43
D-61213 Bad Nauheim
Germany

Goodfellow = Corporation
800=20 Lancaster Avenue
Berwyn, PA=20 19312-1780
USA

 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD3C3C.9FFE7640-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 10:32:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05575; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:27:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:27:23 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980218122825.00aee2c8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:28:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Run 13 - Pt filament Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ki7DY3.0.oM1.7Wowq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, sports fans, read all about Run 13 at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run13.html The good news: Pt is not attacked by hydrogen. The bad news: Still no excess heat. Thanks for all the insightful observations, suggestions, calculations, and references. This is fun. It would be a LOT of fun if the experiment would start producing excess heat! Randall Mills is apparently stonewalling us. There has been no response to the FEDEX package containing color printouts of all our runs and the letter I posted here last week. Now I am going to contact Dr. Farrell again at Franklin & Mary. He DOES respond to me and appears to have some contact with Mills. I will ask him to appeal our case. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 11:25:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15467; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:19:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:19:49 -0800 Message-ID: <34EB3462.6476 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:20:02 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament References: <3.0.1.32.19980218122825.00aee2c8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1HM882.0.Yn3.JHpwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > OK, sports fans, read all about Run 13 at: > > http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run13.html > > The good news: Pt is not attacked by hydrogen. > The bad news: Still no excess heat. > Nice work, Scott! I wonder is there is any easy way to confirm that the Pt filament is actually generating H atoms in its vicinity? Fred, Oh Fred ... Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 12:01:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22386; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:54:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:54:28 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980218145520.00b69100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:55:20 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: ZPE Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4646BA03FD hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> References: <01BD3935.4AE7D840 pm3-157.gpt.infi.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"J9dsn1.0.dT5.pnpwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:54 PM 2/16/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: > 3. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities and can be >extracted in huge quantities, and thus the very nature of the >universe can be modified based on what we "mere mortals" do in the >lab. As I said, this possibility doesn't seem too attractive. (to me >anyway) Welcome to reality... Whether or not you believe that net energy can be extracted from the ZPE in huge quantities, human activities change the amount of ZPE in our vicinity. Convert a mass of metal into vapor. You increase the amount of ZPE. Condense the vapor, and you regain that energy. Now look at what happens when a star goes supernova. The change in ZPE from that makes the chnage in density from vaporizing aluminium look insigificant, and a supernova changes the ZPE levels over a volume light years in diameter. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From 72240.1256 compuserve.com Wed Feb 18 09:31:03 1998 Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com (hil-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.177.135]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07551 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mailgate localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id MAA29811; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:28:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:22:59 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: An important study Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802181228_MC2-33D0-B0FE compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Status: RO X-Status: THE ETIOLOGY & TREATMENT OF CHILDHOOD Jordan W. Smoller University of Pennsylvania Childhood is a syndrome which has only recently begun to receive serious attention from clinicians. The syndrome itself, however, is not at all recent. As early as the 8th century, the Persian historian Kidnom made references to "short, noisy creatures," who may well have been what we now call "children." The treatment of children, however, was unknown until this century, when so-called "child psychologists" and "child psychiatrists" became common. Despite this history of clinical neglect, it has been estimated that well over half of all Americans alive today have experienced childhood directly (Suess, 1983). In fact, the actual numbers are probably much higher, since these data are based on self-reports which may be subject to social desirability biases and retrospective distortion. The growing acceptance of childhood as a distinct phenomenon is reflected in the proposed inclusion of the syndrome in the upcoming Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, or DSM-IV, of the American Psychiatric Association (1990). Clinicians are still in disagreement about the significant clinical features of childhood, but the proposed DSM-IV will almost certainly include the following core features: 1. Congenital onset 2. Dwarfism 3. Emotional lability and immaturity 4. Knowledge deficits 5. Legume anorexia Clinical Features of Childhood Although the focus of this paper is on the efficacy of conventional treatment of childhood, the five clinical markers mentioned above merit further discussion for those unfamiliar with this patient population. CONGENITAL ONSET In one of the few existing literature reviews on childhood, Temple- Black (1982) has noted that childhood is almost always present at birth, although it may go undetected for years or even remain subclinical indefinitely. This observation has led some investigators to speculate on a biological contribution to childhood. As one psychologist has put it, "we may soon be in a position to distinguish organic childhood from functional childhood" (Rogers, 1979). DWARFISM This is certainly the most familiar marker of childhood. It is widely known that children are physically short relative to the population at large. Indeed, common clinical wisdom suggests that the treatment of the so-called "small child" (or "tot") is particularly difficult. These children are known to exhibit infantile behavior and display a startling lack of insight (Tom and Jerry, 1967). EMOTIONAL LABILITY AND IMMATURITY This aspect of childhood is often the only basis for a clinician's diagnosis. As a result, many otherwise normal adults are misdiagnosed as children and must suffer the unnecessary social stigma of being labelled a "child" by professionals and friends alike. KNOWLEDGE DEFICITS While many children have IQ's with or even above the norm, almost all will manifest knowledge deficits. Anyone who has known a real child has experienced the frustration of trying to discuss any topic that requires some general knowledge. Children seem to have little knowledge about the world they live in. Politics, art, and science -- children are largely ignorant of these. Perhaps it is because of this ignorance, but the sad fact is that most children have few friends who are not, themselves, children. LEGUME ANOREXIA This last identifying feature is perhaps the most unexpected. Folk wisdom is supported by empirical observation -- children will rarely eat their vegetables (see Popeye, 1957, for review). Causes of Childhood Now that we know what it is, what can we say about the causes of childhood? Recent years have seen a flurry of theory and speculation from a number of perspectives. Some of the most prominent are reviewed below. Sociological Model Emile Durkind was perhaps the first to speculate about sociological causes of childhood. He points out two key observations about children: 1) the vast majority of children are unemployed, and 2) children represent one of the least educated segments of our society. In fact, it has been estimated that less than 20% of children have had more than fourth grade education. Clearly, children are an "out-group." Because of their intellectual handicap, children are even denied the right to vote. From the sociologist's perspective, treatment should be aimed at helping assimilate children into mainstream society. Unfortunately, some victims are so incapacitated by their childhood that they are simply not competent to work. One promising rehabilitation program (Spanky and Alfalfa, 1978) has trained victims of severe childhood to sell lemonade. Biological Model The observation that childhood is usually present from birth has led some to speculate on a biological contribution. An early investigation by Flintstone and Jetson (1939) indicated that childhood runs in families. Their survey of over 8,000 American families revealed that over half contained more than one child. Further investigation revealed that even most non-child family members had experienced childhood at some point. Cross-cultural studies (e.g., Mowgli & Din, 1950) indicate that family childhood is even more prevalent in the Far East. For example, in Indian and Chinese families, as many as three out of four family members may have childhood. Impressive evidence of a genetic component of childhood comes from a large-scale twin study by Brady and Partridge (1972). These authors studied over 106 pairs of twins, looking at concordance rates for childhood. Among identical or monozygotic twins, concordance was unusually high (0.92), i.e., when one twin was diagnosed with childhood, the other twin was almost always a child as well. Psychological Models A considerable number of psychologically-based theories of the development of childhood exist. They are too numerous to review here. Among the more familiar models are Seligman's "learned childishness" model. According to this model, individuals who are treated like children eventually give up and become children. As a counterpoint to such theories, some experts have claimed that childhood does not really exist. Szasz (1980) has called "childhood" an expedient label. In seeking conformity, we handicap those whom we find unruly or too short to deal with by labelling them "children." Treatment of Childhood Efforts to treat childhood are as old as the syndrome itself. Only in modern times, however, have humane and systematic treatment protocols been applied. In part, this increased attention to the problem may be due to the sheer number of individuals suffering from childhood. Government statistics (DHHS) reveal that there are more children alive today than at any time in our history. To paraphrase P.T. Barnum: "There's a child born every minute." The overwhelming number of children has made government intervention inevitable. The nineteenth century saw the institution of what remains the largest single program for the treatment of childhood -- so-called "public schools." Under this colossal program, individuals are placed into treatment groups based on the severity of their condition. For example, those most severely afflicted may be placed in a "kindergarten" program. Patients at this level are typically short, unruly, emotionally immature,and intellectually deficient. Given this type of individual, therapy is essentially one of patient management and of helping the child master basic skills (e.g. finger-painting). Unfortunately, the "school" system has been largely ineffective. Not only is the program a massive tax burden, but it has failed even to slow down the rising incidence of childhood. Faced with this failure and the growing epidemic of childhood, mental health professionals are devoting increasing attention to the treatment of childhood. Given a theoretical framework by Freud's landmark treatises on childhood, child psychiatrists and psychologists claimed great successes in their clinical interventions. By the 1950's, however, the clinicians' optimism had waned. Even after years of costly analysis, many victims remained children. The following case (taken from Gumbie & Poke, 1957) is typical. Billy J., age 8, was brought to treatment by his parents. Billy's affliction was painfully obvious. He stood only 4'3" high and weighed a scant 70 lbs., despite the fact that he ate voraciously. Billy presented a variety of troubling symptoms. His voice was noticeably high for a man. He displayed legume anorexia, and, according to his parents, often refused to bathe. His intellectual functioning was also below normal -- he had little general knowledge and could barely write a structured sentence. Social skills were also deficient. He often spoke inappropriately and exhibited "whining behaviour." His sexual experience was non-existent. Indeed, Billy considered women "icky." His parents reported that his condition had been present from birth, improving gradually after he was placed in a school at age 5. The diagnosis was "primary childhood." After years of painstaking treatment, Billy improved gradually. At age 11, his height and weight have increased, his social skills are broader, and he is now functional enough to hold down a "paper route." After years of this kind of frustration, startling new evidence has come to light which suggests that the prognosis in cases of childhood may not be all gloom. A critical review by Fudd (1972) noted that studies of the childhood syndrome tend to lack careful follow-up. Acting on this observation, Moe, Larrie, and Kirly (1974) began a large-scale longitudinal study. These investigators studied two groups. The first group consisted of 34 children currently engaged in a long-term conventional treatment program. The second was a group of 42 children receiving no treatment. All subjects had been diagnosed as children at least 4 years previously, with a mean duration of childhood of 6.4 years. At the end of one year, the results confirmed the clinical wisdom that childhood is a refractory disorder -- virtually all symptoms persisted and the treatment group was only slightly better off than the controls. The results, however, of a careful 10-year follow-up were startling. The investigators (Moe, Larrie, Kirly & Shemp, 1984) assessed the original cohort on a variety of measures. General knowledge and emotional maturity were assessed with standard measures. Height was assessed by the "metric system" (see Ruler, 1923), and legume appetite by the Vegetable Appetite Test (VAT) designed by Popeye (1968). Moe et al. found that subjects improved uniformly on all measures. Indeed, in most cases, the subjects appeared to be symptom-free. Moe et al. report a spontaneous remission rate of 95%, a finding which is certain to revolutionize the clinical approach to childhood. These recent results suggests that the prognosis for victims of childhood may not be so bad as we have feared. We must not, however, become too complacent. Despite its apparently high spontaneous remission rate, childhood remains one of the most serious and rapidly growing disorders facing mental health professional today. And, beyond the psychological pain it brings, childhood has recently been linked to a number of physical disorders. Twenty years ago, Howdi, Doodi, and Beauzeau (1965) demonstrated a six-fold increased risk of chicken pox, measles, and mumps among children as compared with normal controls. Later, Barby and Kenn (1971) linked childhood to an elevated risk of accidents -- compared with normal adults, victims of childhood were much more likely to scrape their knees, lose their teeth, and fall off their bikes. Clearly, much more research is needed before we can give any real hope to the millions of victims wracked by this insidious disorder. REFERENCES American Psychiatric Association (1990). The diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, 4th edition: A preliminary report. Washington, D.C.; APA. Barby, B., & Kenn, K. (1971). The plasticity of behaviour. In B. Barby & K. Kenn (Eds.), Psychotherapies R Us. Detroit: Ronco press. Brady, C.., & Partridge, S. (1972). My dads bigger than your dad. Acta Eur. Age, 9, 123-126. Flintstone, F., & Jetson, G. (1939). Cognitive mediation of labour disputes. Industrial Psychology Today, 2, 23-35. Fudd, E.J. (1972). Locus of control and shoe-size. Journal of Footwear Psychology, 78, 345-356. Gumbie, G., & Pokey, P. (1957). A cognitive theory of iron-smelting. Journal of Abnormal Metallurgy, 45, 235-239. Howdi, C., Doodi, C., & Beauzeau, C. (1965). Western civilization: A review of the literature. Reader's digest, 60, 23-25. Moe, R., Larrie, T., & Kirly, Q. (1974). State childhood vs. trait childhood. TV guide, May 12-19, 1-3. Moe, R., Larrie, T., Kirly, Q., & Shemp, C. (1984). Spontaneous remission of childhood In W.C. Fields (Ed.), New hope for children and animals. Hollywood: Acme Press. Popeye, T.S.M. (1957). The use of spinach in extreme circumstances. Journal of Vegetable Science, 58, 530-538. Popeye, T.S.M. (1968). Spinach: A phenomenological perspective. Existential botany, 35, 908-813. Rogers, F. (1979). Becoming my neighbour. New York:Soft press. Ruler, Y. (1923). Assessing measurements protocols by the multi-method multiple regression index for the psychometric analysis of factorial interaction. Annals of Boredom, 67, 1190-1260. Spanky, D., & Alfalfa, Q. (1978). Coping with puberty. Sears catalogue, 45-46. Suess, D.R. (1983). A psychometric analysis of green eggs with and without ham. Journal of clinical cuisine, 245, 567-578. Temple-Black, S. (1982). Childhood: an ever-so sad disorder. Journal of precocity, 3, 129-134. Tom, C., & Jerry, M. (1967). Human behaviour as a model for understanding the rat. In M. de Sade (Ed.). The rewards of Punishment. Paris:Bench press. FURTHER READINGS Christ, J.H. (1980). Grandiosity in children. Journal of applied theology, 1, 1-1000. Joe, G.I. (1965). Aggressive fantasy as wish fulfilment. Archives of General MacArthur, 5, 23-45. Leary, T. (1969). Pharmacotherapy for childhood. Annals of astrological Science, 67, 456-459. Kissoff, K.G.B. (1975). Extinction of learnt behaviour. Paper presented to the Siberian Psychological Association, 38th annual Annual meeting, Kamchatka. Smythe, C., & Barnes, T. (1979). Behaviour therapy prevents tooth decay. Journal of behavioral Orthodontics, 5, 79-89. Potash, S., & Hoser, B. (1980). A failure to replicate the results of Smythe and Barnes. Journal of dental psychiatry, 34, 678-680. Smythe, C., & Barnes, T. (1980). Your study was poorly done: A reply to Potash and Hoser. Annual review of Aquatic psychiatry, 10, 123-156. Potash, S., & Hoser, B. (1981). Your mother wears army boots: A further reply to Smythe and Barnes. Archives of invective research, 56, 5-9. Smythe, C., & Barnes, T. (1982). Embarrassing moments in the sex lives of Potash and Hoser: A further reply. National Enquirer, May 16. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 12:30:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27313; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:23:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:23:57 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980218142357.00b7c210 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:23:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 12 at 30 watts Filament Power? In-Reply-To: <01bd3c63$58fc4ac0$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ibPXV1.0.gg6.RDqwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:50 2/18/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber noticed a problem: >The actual resistance for pure W at 2000 K based on 2" long by 0.005" dia >wire: >R = rho*L/area = 2.27 ohms, indicating a resistance ratio of 5 rather than >10... I made better measurements on a new filament: wire diameter: 0.004" no of coils: 32 od of coils: 0.029" straight leads on each end: 0.12" This works out to a length of 2.75" and, with the reduced diameter gives a calculated R of 0.48 ohms at room temp. I measured one with my Keithley 4-wire ohmmeter and got 0.40 ohms... not terribly close...maybe it's the length calculation...the coil is awfully tight. I then took a piece of my new 0.005" certified pure W wire (which I have not used in the BLP experiment yet) and used the Keithley to measure a 2" long section of it: 0.235 ohms. Calculated room temp resistance of such a wire 0.227 ohms...pretty close. This pretty much resolves the discrepancy you noted, Fred. Thanks Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 13:01:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13167; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:55:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:55:23 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <34EAF418.20E04893 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:45:44 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament References: <3.0.1.32.19980218122825.00aee2c8 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"ffB1X3.0.fD3.ugqwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: OK, sports fans, read all about Run 13 at: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run13.html The good news: Pt is not attacked by hydrogen. The bad news: Still no excess heat. run13.html: Upon disassembly of the chamber we found that the catalyst vial weighs maybe 0.01 grams less than it did before the run (our balance has 0.01g resolution). Since the KNO2 is visibly moist, this could easily be water loss. Thus, we continue to observe little or no catalyst consumption, even at a catalyst temp of 300° C. Hi Scott, The survival of the platinum filament is very good news; but, probably, there will be no hydrinos made unless there are K+ ions somewhere in your reactor outside of the catalyst vial. We still do not know if hydrinos are formed on the filament, on the walls, or in the vapor phase; but you will have to get some K+ "out there." Maybe you should run higher than 300 C? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 13:05:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13675; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: noble metal hydrogenation catalysts For Frank S. Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:55:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3caf$831b7500$4b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"0VC093.0.UL3.gkqwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0074_01BD3C74.D6C43E20" ------=_NextPart_001_0074_01BD3C74.D6C43E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable T Development of sulfur tolerant supported noble metal hydrogenation = catalysts =20 =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Titel van het onderzoek Development of sulfur tolerant supported noble metal hydrogenation = catalysts (UCH3787).=20 Omschrijving van het onderzoek In the framework of this project we wish to develop new sulfur resistant = Pt and Pd based catalysts, characterize these materials and test their = catalytic properties. We aim to understand the ways in which Pt(Pd) = supported on/in zeolites interacts with its environment and how this = interaction contributes to the sulfur resistance of these catalysts in = hydrogenation reactions.=20 In the first phase of the project we explore the role of the acid/base = properties of the molecular sieve and of the promotion of the noble = metal by the base metals Ni, Co and Fe upon the catalytic properties of = supported platinum and palladium catalysts. We will concentrate on the = relation of the solid state chemistry of the developed catalysts and = their catalytic properties (especially in respect to the sulfur = tolerance of the noble metal). The testing of the catalytic properties = will include the competitive hydrogenation of benzene/toluene (sensitive = to the acidity/basicity of the catalyst) and neopentane = hydrogenolysis/isomerization (sensitive to the metal particle size and = to the support). The sulfur resistance will be probed by adding various = sulfur compounds (H2S, thiophene) to the feed and monitoring the effect = upon probe reactions.=20 In the second phase, the best catalysts identified in the first stage = will be further improved by fine tuning their catalytic properties which = were found to be crucial for a better catalytic performance of the = catalysts. In order to do this, it is essential to characterize the = working catalyst by in situ spectroscopy and to determine in parallel = the microkinetics of the reactions involved. It will be of special = importance to study and optimize the catalyst properties in the presence = of increasing concentrations of sulfur in the feed stream. At the end of = phase two, the best catalyst will be identified and eventually compared = to a commercial catalyst.=20 In the third phase, the focus will be on the fine tuning of the = preparation of a prototype catalyst and the elaborate testing, of this = catalyst. The macro- and microkinetics for a mixed hydrocarbon/aromatics = mixture will be determined in the presence of increasing concentrations = of the sulfur containing compounds. The catalytic activity, stability = and the performance after catalyst regeneration will be investigated.=20 Resultaten van het onderzoek Nog geen resultaten bekend=20 Gebruikers Vijf bedrijven.=20 Projectleider Prof.dr.ir. D.C. Koningsberger Rijksuniversiteit Utrecht Faculteit der Scheikunde Debye Instituut Laboratorium Anorganische Chemie Postbus 80.083 3508 TB UTRECHT. =20 =20 Status van het project Gestart : 01/02/1996 =20 Einddatum : 15/07/1999 =20 =20 Trefwoorden P Katalyse, scheikunde, anorganische chemie, scheikundige technologie, = sulfide, metalen, fysische chemie, metalen, platina, palladium, zeoliet, = zuur/base, vaste stof, hydrogenatie, hydreren, katalysator.=20 Meer informatie ? Indien u meer informatie wenst m.b.t. dit project, kunt u contact = opnemen met de KNA/STW Helpdesk. Telefoon : Telefax : E-mail : 030 6001 307 030 6014 408 kna stw.nl=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =A9 STW, 1997 Laatste wijziging: Fri May 23 08:55:51 GMT = 1997 Reakties over deze pagina naar: Webmaster =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0074_01BD3C74.D6C43E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Development of sulfur tolerant = supported noble metal hydrogenation catalysts
T

3D[KNA]=20

Development of sulfur tolerant supported noble metal=20 hydrogenation catalysts

3Dlogo =

Titel van het onderzoek

Development of sulfur tolerant supported = noble=20 metal hydrogenation catalysts (UCH3787).=20

Omschrijving van het onderzoek

In the framework of this project = we wish=20 to develop new sulfur resistant Pt and Pd based catalysts, characterize = these=20 materials and test their catalytic properties. We aim to understand the = ways in=20 which Pt(Pd) supported on/in zeolites interacts with its environment and = how=20 this interaction contributes to the sulfur resistance of these catalysts = in=20 hydrogenation reactions.=20

In the first phase of the project we explore the role of the = acid/base=20 properties of the molecular sieve and of the promotion of the noble = metal by the=20 base metals Ni, Co and Fe upon the catalytic properties of supported = platinum=20 and palladium catalysts. We will concentrate on the relation of the = solid state=20 chemistry of the developed catalysts and their catalytic properties = (especially=20 in respect to the sulfur tolerance of the noble metal). The testing of = the=20 catalytic properties will include the competitive hydrogenation of=20 benzene/toluene (sensitive to the acidity/basicity of the catalyst) and=20 neopentane hydrogenolysis/isomerization (sensitive to the metal particle = size=20 and to the support). The sulfur resistance will be probed by adding = various=20 sulfur compounds (H2S, thiophene) to the feed and monitoring = the=20 effect upon probe reactions.=20

In the second phase, the best catalysts identified in the first stage = will be=20 further improved by fine tuning their catalytic properties which were = found to=20 be crucial for a better catalytic performance of the catalysts. In order = to do=20 this, it is essential to characterize the working catalyst by in situ=20 spectroscopy and to determine in parallel the microkinetics of the = reactions=20 involved. It will be of special importance to study and optimize the = catalyst=20 properties in the presence of increasing concentrations of sulfur in the = feed=20 stream. At the end of phase two, the best catalyst will be identified = and=20 eventually compared to a commercial catalyst.=20

In the third phase, the focus will be on the fine tuning of the = preparation=20 of a prototype catalyst and the elaborate testing, of this catalyst. The = macro-=20 and microkinetics for a mixed hydrocarbon/aromatics mixture will be = determined=20 in the presence of increasing concentrations of the sulfur containing = compounds.=20 The catalytic activity, stability and the performance after catalyst=20 regeneration will be investigated.=20

Resultaten van het onderzoek

Nog geen resultaten bekend=20

Gebruikers

Vijf bedrijven.=20

Projectleider

Prof.dr.ir. D.C. Koningsberger=20 Rijksuniversiteit Utrecht
Faculteit der=20 Scheikunde
Debye Instituut
Laboratorium Anorganische = Chemie=20 		Postbus 80.083
3508 TB UTRECHT. =

Status van het project

Gestart=20 : 01/02/1996=20
Einddatum=20 : 15/07/1999

Trefwoorden

P Katalyse, scheikunde, anorganische chemie, = scheikundige=20 technologie, sulfide, metalen, fysische chemie, metalen, platina, = palladium,=20 zeoliet, zuur/base, vaste stof, hydrogenatie, hydreren, katalysator.=20

Meer informatie ?

Indien u meer informatie wenst = m.b.t. dit=20 project, kunt u contact opnemen met de KNA/STW = Helpdesk. Telefoon :
Telefax :
E-mail = :		 030 6001 307
030 6014 408
kna@stw.nl
3D[TOP]
© = STW, 1997=20 		Laatste = wijziging: Fri=20 May 23 08:55:51 GMT 1997
Reakties over deze pagina naar: = Webmaster=20
------=_NextPart_001_0074_01BD3C74.D6C43E20-- ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005b01bd3caf$82846520$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODdhKwAUAMQAAMDAwP//AMz/M8z/AJn/Zpn/M5nMZmb//2bMmWbMZjPMzDPMmQDM/wDMzACZ /wCZzABm/wBmmQAz/wAA/wAAMwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAA KwAUAAAF4SBzjGRpnmh6MqLqvirFOnRt19AkSRN0/0AaRcYI3nK7nnHpGM6YDiQPanQWoVIl9We1 QXiTsDicHIchRXCNp+5Gxbu4HPKVqx1idE6naxJpYlF2cXR2X0pweHwTQn97DmBmZJFwZItgbEVd Z2B0nodJEnRnY4eWjI0zpIwMOYdZDix7mGU9YTWboj2yOjxZaCyne79XXYadpLq9o71wyjabkj1I kNNjScy3vtB/g4W3rWSConurgdyq0uCx5aVjb2dXqUXqErE1aZLD9Lc3ThEAAwocSLCgQYFDDipc yJBCCAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005d01bd3caf$82952e00$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODlhKAAUAPf/AP//////AMz/M8z/AJn/Zpn/M5nMZmb//2bMmWbMZjPMzDPMmQDM/wDMzACZ /wCZzABmmQAAMwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAUAEAI/wAZHBhI sKDBgwgTEmTAwIFDBwICLBgQYMCDhw4CaAygAKLEhxEJIAhQ4GGECAwxqlzJsuXKkykxLljw8MHM jjY7PpypUgFPkygbOiwQwIDDBRobOEzqYKTGBEs3SqXpAKZQl1izYrSKcaQABw8ochz69GiArw+J aqRaNejOjREDXHRooGgDjQoqgiwaFWjMjAFkrs2I1oFasIMfJiDpECaEx5AjS55MuTIEqwoza0bo VqtnrFwf5g0MVmzHxXIdjsb4YKPOtn8dECgatqJSh2JJ1zXq8C5Jvo07RxXL26yA2SU1vpWLtHBo B6hLhtxLk2LEkg6QVhQQ9/Zziq+v9ytFjLep8oezeYduYACBygRGFxhgq6C9g/pQMbJ3D/vq5/9b RWDZgARaFkFAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <005f01bd3caf$829ccf20$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODlhTQBLAMT/AP/////GMcDAwPcQAO/v5+/OWu+9Kd7e3r29vb29tb2UIaWtpZSMjJSESpRz IYxrIYSEe3tze3tjGGtjSmNSKVJCGEpCQjkxMTEpECEYEBgQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEA AAIALAAAAABNAEsAQAX/oCCOZGmeaKqubCsakrhtohYEWp7fjq5JOJ8NJxNNbhrXSogUDoNP3S04 3TWtPaGjGckpSc/HQ/iY4szotPoJzZV5vq/zra4HNgOAfr/f2OtOOiIZNCVeAoFMfzd4A46PjgB+ i1WJNSpeSYhSZj6Un2iKlYdfAhcZNVGeV6NNla1XnG2XpSZWFRepNk4BWZyKOQldO6S1xihWgQHH zF+nRCPJGgAL0qkYARgWzcfEWrHgbbHWAhs5haUKiVZtqlVTD1tUruHjqyoUGBg062w32KD+yOvU z5+tRAHRNHrER1JCUIZ00CEo6mHARBOnVJiAjN0YJwNlsfOXho2sdqug/ym5QYjjpiGKPqqCyUmm hjc6AAjhxkJakpGrilmAwrNoRHtNjCodMQUdIqQqBWB7UGQpikIZkOi6YZOmz69SBBltwEgXWDg+ YYmLJUOeJjnTdIr04RZolZBAoIxiB4WBnmIpZlTYS1ctu8GhpgwMMlHZDQlxTmTY9jJlrIwWS2pY 7EvQzogn4TnOvMhyqMgpCvK1s7Chnkl1uqo+gZD0HUgMX5dWHehgIMxcgQeoMGMDBkf7ZgBUI8GB 8HYCLDgdYYA3SQq2T2uejUmWbILZ5/UCqRh199rtXtE7g8SwjpCezbsACxSLXVb1HItlpsF4KqhB eQLMgIBZ5YA5G+RC3/84SOWQAQI+NGBVT7scIg0C1Hjz1gUVFDDhhyCGSFsSKP0kYlEZYLAVDhEA kEAyJGyAyolKALFPfzUAeMgkM9JYgorl+AdEDC+NAwQvRCAoAjYiajDYW5swGMuRAb7l1YdAevVL lVoSRpMM/nGTzyD/oRQOl1JmIYIFOQzGH4yipLTlTKPURcYVtSCZXn7u0OOLl5X4RUCBHWmAAIRy JhrSO4zqVU87EOggIQsKBCDbXHyRxNV6M5k0GqEkXGDBBdh5eZN6PIBCx2p6QtdCRXdOUapFeT3q 6ksnXLABZRiZ8dFzFmWwWIm9mVBpANUVBGx4pq6GRC6ghXaaplNk0N//tQhea4ezFO2X2joJNeKa bqD0E6pv1knbFCSuwUZJulAK0IAD9A6b2UK5kWvbZvE4R1W06f6BL7sO2XFpb5nEC8ZooAyMm7vl OjECZQBTuyclGFi8nQ61ljQDtCTIk2w/yzLbLMcSxOMhaNG0CoW9++YwLGSfgXqJJifFegNimfFs 5hQ0e4uMOZ7qnGlmObcq9AmVHtxpJ6vC02h9m508hDGY1odqn45evJ/NtBVC9Vdb07lWiWxhPcSM iWqNH5daBtgMIf0pOERnXa7V9ldyIWIUtFagAreUhf0MNjc7SDADrxUO3s4WOiD6ZYgTECL2l3PC eAmeS9PoU5RQHBBWDwlHdO4jbWUqo/DprC8VAgA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <006101bd3caf$82b6bfc0$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODlhKAAUAPf/AP//////AMz/M8z/AJn/Zpn/M5nMZmb//2bMmWbMZjPMzDPMmQDM/wDMzACZ /wCZzABmmQAAMwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAKAAUAEAI+AAZHBhI sKDBgwgTEmTAwIFDBwYCOEwQ4IHDBQEURHQoQKJDBAFChnzoMEIEhiRTqlS5QIBLlwQIFHjp0oFJ lCtz6vzoMeXNhg83OlTQMUABi0IfghTJtOfPnVCjPnwKsamDpSEVVBVJgCRWlVQdCgWp9WqABhEX LGigtOnIqSeBSl2J1e3bmxDy6t3Lt6/fvxB+KhxMGGHcuXPL+jzsoIHaxw4fqH3oWC3blAMCIADL WKzHBkYfNMhclWNPB5lDbiYZtrRrBxgXRBSZ4GFqkatLdnb9IMCABSAFvLZtN3drxCRvu119HDlq u0w3N3cu1STg69gBRwgIADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <006301bd3caf$82c788a0$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODdhAgBwF9UAAP////+9vf+trf9SUv8AAL0AAP8YAL0YAP9SAP+tUr17AP+tAP+9AP//vf// rf//Uv//Sv//AL29AL33AL33vQD3AAC9AAB7AAAYAAD3vQC9vQB7ve/3/3ut/6XG/87e/0qE/wBS /wAYvQAAvf+t/717vf9S/70Yvf8A/70Avf8Avb29vf8Yvf8Arf9Srf97vf8AUgAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAAgBwFwAG/8CQcEgsGo/IpHLJ bCZBRGhIKqSCpNjsVHvNXrddcHdMLpvP5c5YDWJf2R34G66Ot+N1vH7P7/vjHnqBHYOFHoaEh4mB h42Oj5CRhx+TjR+UHpeUm5yXmZqgoaKiHJelpqanHKqrpa2vsLGrALO0HAC4ubq7vL2+v8DBwsPE xcbHyMnKy8zNzs/Q0dLT1NXW19jZ2tvc3d7f4OHi4+Tl5ufo6err7O3u7/Dx8vP09fb3+Pn6+/z9 /v8AAwocSLCgwYMIEypcyLChw4cQI0qcSLGixYsYM2rcyLGjx48gQ4ocSbKkyZMoU6pcybKly5cw Y8qcSbOmzZs4c+rcybOnzxOfQIMKHUq0qNGjSJMqXcq0acUgADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0073_01BD3C74.D6BC9D00-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 13:11:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13687; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:29 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:29 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Yes Frank, There Should be H radicals at the Pt Surface. :-) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:53:38 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3caf$49f24740$4b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"0lfB32.0.bL3.hkqwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003D_01BD3C74.9D936F40" ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Fat Hydrogenation Group Hydrogenation catalysts >From literature a number of metals are known to be active as = hydrogenation catalysts. Most important are Nickel, Palladium and = Platinum. In the early days of fat hydrogenation pure nickel was used. A = porous structure was obtained by a specific production method. Nowadays = the active metals are combined with carrier particles, either by = impregnation or precipitation.=20 The particles have a high porosity, a high internal surface and = therefore a high activity. Particle sizes vary in the range 10 to 100 = microns.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- More information: bouma chem.rug.nl=20 html by:=20 ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hydrogenation of Edible Oils: = catalyst
 
=20

3Dfoh-logo=20 Fat Hydrogenation = Group

Hydrogenation catalysts

From literature a number of metals are known to be active as = hydrogenation=20 catalysts. Most important are Nickel, Palladium and Platinum. In the = early days=20 of fat hydrogenation pure nickel was used. A porous structure was = obtained by a=20 specific production method. Nowadays the active metals are combined with = carrier=20 particles, either by impregnation or precipitation.=20

The particles have a high porosity, a high internal surface and = therefore a=20 high activity. Particle sizes vary in the range 10 to 100 microns.=20

More information: bouma@chem.rug.nl<= /EM>

html by: ------=_NextPart_001_003D_01BD3C74.9D936F40-- ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002401bd3caf$49074b00$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODdhFgIJAIQAAP9pSf+KbaowJP9ZSf99bf95SapRSVUoJKpBJFUYAP9JJFU4JFVJSaocAAAA AFUIACQkACQAAFUoAKowAP9ZJKoQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAA FgIJAAAF/iAQAMJAAkRhHAAiJIY4rIKyAqY7L8RcBApAQXAgCIgGAxHALB4ChxViliBCW7cEAdEi kBDQ12BwBDyjBYRTEQWLDi8DGAYfu1PkETRAfh4HAQl7cAJ8L0wjSQRRCSRKB4B1DAkNDg8xLGYI MQIPDy9niwQGDw5daCtXMwdqciwMcAgPXEEHcF4PMA5GqwcMCASWDlcGfHIBlgbBBhCLsAOyCVUP EGUBLg8mpmq+ZlECOAAOrAwFTKUNneMCiwcQBiYmCWPwI+IPQQ4CEZj8Bg4OBuirNUvCgVIDEuhj MOCAAwacjJRiRgACw3sDDUQoGAGjQgkQTjRUIBBgNhf//hKQdAhw40MICAc8OOhQwD8EpgCC+ycQ JksAnpgEBJhMAECHm/4JIwFQgQIG4yJABaAAIFOiJnM6wKmUaFUECmdcLQWwFasZ4IAdiQLnyZtr RBYhacFiiwIjSOCg4OLHihMaJViIVbJlLgAYVVgQumIDzIwAAWwqCERAC1szXhoo1mzmCisbAlAi ULOlygRWmcysUEljE7cAFBw1CmIEgDIjEpwOkKDGNgsFD07MJAKLlIRPwEOFlgUg3YRasKAcl2XE Fqwewy39uQ4BmQIYnRRDYvB9SkAnJaBCo8F2tDiFTMYwMDOAAUzz4ubDuf4bhxx48ARTSmWfbPGL XtrF/kANLAgAB4xMISFgHzJymDFLAq5RI444BAQhAAOFbJKTQABYhMIupsjEjg0p/oJFEBIaFYUC RonjgEV3PSSMCSUa4cUAIUECDgw4PYRTPqUYVMo5psQ2lBn6UBXlUVvps2QJJDFRZDATEPUJTvbd 6JU+AP0DzzgBxbAICeDs0QQ4Ws4wGluLyGGEHOB4sVODbl1BAiRF2AQNOwN0aIA5hcSyQgNcDJBO GIk2OEIcfhzThnOoSRGEFpMFUKcKNh12gEHXmLCEEm+UAI8tpwXCGxMxmDEBE/MAYlMRsB7WwkzX 2bSVTQl8wlArnYSnmqdPyOTJGB+Wah8+wWXDhDNg/jkAj7C2fPjgFvSt0ExIlgAV7CMBQOBQKeiq 0Z0tAbFJijsQqTHcPOOsywoOKOkjoS1RAGVJsBbRpGB4LszXICyh4TALkBhOkm429pFDVKymNANO M5ZoM0MwEJn0Tyc+UeNAVUQBSZU4R8xkJVAQSkvWTEYAlEAmJXFy465KfcKSVh/L4UAEWKmM4obr QEWWMNSIrBNWDFk5WhBkWAtMkeNU6ASxrfxpAI1nXMNtv1CY4IVcm7AjJIBq3dBvaDkcMKsXSkCh ZqiHgN1WKpGyFRcFSwg27RRnTCCAZnYyosYAWbKZgzQKwkgcAZ6N68W+GE5AyVORFQL5ZNKAZwQs /raYQdXYvvTAgjR82SJHgxKQEKwgvvAlui5ZT9GlOAbwbeKd0jhg0MxqzliZ4DvJqaDvogIZGhD4 RHYYM690IosDVWTeHVBpfWKQdUwAZ8ldoe0+1DJBxoASkmZI1cwYlmxSRDN0UbWkLRY79M+GbLyj P3JGoYkJjwFBFwAMYgqjBcshY4DAaLywlQ2BK4AQUElWtraIyBBFIb7YBRe2IiKFjCw/E9MKlRRI tZyMxxQkE8jWqgYQgfQPSigkU2AOdQRL4Y0yYpnCHgBRAJJcowEzUIZtCkUn29gDHvGIxCAmhZjQ qE0OMxtAAaqQBBcIgXAl8M0UKqiAVuHqWHFw/kEXWcEOFyCmQRMAg95w0ActdYMIEtCGFD7UFt5I QwKJucEqUCINm5hDBA8wlCeiYL5gzAyPmFEUWBIwHRuQMQAxOCAyMDMDjF0iG5BRnRNK4RQ8BXF4 uwBHAVghiqVsA15nmUWHnichFKzNFH+ghjtIFB45MCACtugB7vQREjM0I1hDe0pUftGgUkwBIgKA wKusFQOpKCECrSPRUviVBKMs6SFXIRO6qgKUd/Bjep+4WQQI0JFkoCtj1rpHKXThENAJo0rg2IUJ OlItA2iBHy1MZ1UEUqiyNNCfKRrHJfSRBDL94yAZaQlGVmAVGV0ThgDhAxB6YLl0AIACXKDB/gAs t0UFaGYRXDjMdw4jtzekYgYedd9OSDAGy1hKdIVoTqBKAAXe4eOkmSmBIMaIAz2BBx+iM1XcDsCo NNIUDtl43WHyQoSZ5OILiklELoLFt1UQQSZbyEUF6Kg6YAaCbU1gwCCfoypbbCKQwAkkC64qh1JU IB/zAcA4m2OKRlgrUPaRH4Z05JBg1MhBapPrMjaoEfigwBOeCEg1RvUnE1RFZ7bBwTfucQQ4degB FJgICfjRAqkkFl3lRACOONQJOpAzFyYBRyUxQr1zBuMAOcLJ0VIkvar8gywdwSeZMEoSnGwkAvyc Zgm+VJV8dAkgAlIHVqxoBsnMREow8dfI/qySIpR5CUnsy2eRjBJPrGxFIA2AAOK28jEbUMC7u8iH jXbBEk6YYAR3ocRlouCoITUgG23Zg03gZJsj7CEBE7DVoeQ2hGIB8auh8kILGtAIQWyCLhUgaife IEXSeALAiJNsD8awVey572COuotMXKmaYMljWXXowXDPsQJIQBIoE0hqFT9UgGyQwSgNwYwyHhBj p/KrMgfp0ieeq4DfqQNdSoBBoZR832sBCjOfAMcLisymUtSgB+SUQATmYc9K9Jgd82hEiDd0kDSw AzlLakJfHZAOiZj4Ab/FCLQYijKocegwv9XlUszYA4UIbmRwLohMBAOtwwBDE1aOJz6o/iuQbAi5 rjO5H1Jw3BKrJLYFElBGC5cUNWupcGT9I5MwJKCP/l2TuiTTSTDKJBARUY+6oh6KjBYhUKwgqWxW MgULmjIoXYiaK1FpQdDKZIz4KIHBF92JE0gwPL49uAyDmwwFeqA2L0T4MGtiBRce0AAAzKo3hTk2 gBusUT094UIrqJMIUECJjX5GCfbMnLeN8OwEr2JaZ1ZQI2bRBjkMgAINYJEma1DRgwRHb51YluDG pglk5IIMMGMpVGQBLVqQQKz4IJFikhkZp44sAXFlQQQq0ZBgjKAH5NmnAsDSDgmV08raYQJVFHLb UFknAkBQwoCuF4AIJJN4Q+ECAfim/g4LWeIg/kKXOiRVBN9thWRskF9HaCQMwhF20Y3ehsfJgtBZ LMl7rV66TRrUlFN7zyhKKUFokF6maeJk6EuShalJ8k7tfKldnV503XFClf4FyujrbSgJIj04Gelj C/l8NVGEEuqmpJYoREVoOsR0qxpcscFXXvsxSMIjeGCBFVogg60SKYbZ1ENvjTiITDAEhh9AQiUi qELlxQUEwcktVkxgMHzRUMMaKKACjbhVbwIJA63dy2pCBlYNd+31+kyxCJwwQzpucOhKZOMTgmuI IoZ73we4Pq5dXNZzCRUWbmesIeWoAY8mrP0idCSQKTrkEcZnrYOvAB/BIFo64kjOkayHQwCkdgAv BxzQAAhb9hCkUHWWsGWOdBguk3+7QQrgEE4aEWgdsVEnckqxAkzWtAv84BJWwRztlIBZMSB8gRPS ZC1logwbNV1WATRbgU/QMjJ8MRGOJxAH8TFEoVxmgyGkJg5jQDQ/YyNVYVerpoABkWr3UBMlsQ0l 5CU5QRY3NltKcVAkY4M4sINWkg9YEQIAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002601bd3caf$49320480$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODlhhgBXAMIAAP///wAAAP//AP8oUABQ/wAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAACGAFcAAAP+ CLrc/jDKGKoNM+vNu/+VII5kaZLVp64sG55wLItpa99qMO/oy9O4oHCh210ssWPxhxo6PUsTkqaM lpBT5vXJhZyqr6lVGsomj6dud0ytjpTGSxz+VQelPXSeftXLwD5pditkgW+GbXKFAnx9PmaIgx0w fodseYuMil+BkGYikhMojp+bmmGIgJenmIkxoQ5LpTqmpqeVlo2OrbeHW7AAe7uzY7hznKiPnZ+h sras0G1a04V+m8+MdsLIfIjU043X3iNdmVmqWhUD6+zt65/p5/AlTmxglunu+usK+/rj1VztELIq HEAa/hIO6Kdw36po2OrYmPFsXICGChlgVPj+MOIrFjw8vtmYsQFJhZTmzSD0Q6WIkyUVEFgAM2Ex kVJAMKlYMyaBmQx7+gu4s8PDLyaE+vwJFIDShGSmTfo24mlCBkx/0rS6jyqJDV4Z8QtqFWtWrWTL MgwrIEPYdg+eLmC6jqlGoXHZHf0jYS8lfRNOzqVbF61TwRG6UpVA9apMuw5iAiDMDvJhfxAsQ138 oPHSs01Njn1MYJ9mdg9AG8b4DYODbxsHqzac+qe/rBFmn2ZN7TU1xJNtVwbdgLJp2sFBDw99kprr Bb+BJz+uu6Hu0vosX97olx6RaT3NYk94dmN58rubS4WeLzzp8VxrpofZWwF4pbLhxze/Wmn+d3L2 7aTWdPuRpJ1V690nl2wFYoRbWj39l017+BUnXIO3IceVVFrglVlWGFKH3FY1cciEdOIpF6KID+aF kYTBnOhYbSquaOBsEHCUTofu5KaajfHh6GI7O8r4YY1ArihkZAMU+QNqNJ6XJIZLitbkTjwCFiWI U/ZU5V3uwJjljBYi2WV2qg3pj5gyopgfl0l+SeJGJv4xUoVl6qekdnOWqEWMKfkQn3hnDtAiVxK2 Feg5AxJY6IFPgQPATbYsSFqh7UAaoS8rBZjIOHjCiemhQuXyEHu3YHNRTfmZd6OeaPZH3x6rfCeN PFXBRGiGUqL3I3Vg0lkNGw28QWsg0hn+V9h11qE1mzuaNlSQLcUuaghJDC7bYqu8blnli6beA0S1 pJRRAkZvnjWBsstpoFuf/xzbyAPOWNPJjOrmCFe2mc43mgOkKhZuql95kcsu52opk75kGhewZAzr Ze1H9HKKcMJQRozue+1CGNuQ5RJsgigUoYIxkx4mV1q0eDoVhbiVPBdBybq4VmCK/m44jCLMaHCG G1I0iDO8CGbSCxUF+2ytMifc/B7RQhUjDT4SgTVsyEFzNViwSiEzNdVNeID1sUkM2JRV05ZhSCos gR3uQWK5x/VJl8iBhTxjtHAFN7d2xCrUNv2Bht1AJw2S4MrQghMVDQH+TkvdJFNKEGnZF0G4MSEd MSnmZ3y6DNO/UM6354Wz1drltrjUFhdEoS6QLqYj/Skp24yshhWAHI16RXCPArZBa7MtybCK38Mz 3uKg83XppQgCiz1vJ9NK7qneLX3fL6suMzCIU+1J8fV+bSpE1x/tPDDk1i7G5+aXK7nalourCQzo k9yH9+zj+jb268t/fv2MWdTrrHew6sUPfOU7CAChkIToDbB8+OufERZ4OMR9D3ykO+DrBkLBGyQq gwfUg/4o0sF6OOduGaSBpEp4u9iZbnssHMQH2QLDGC5whnyxIQASAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002801bd3caf$494146c0$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODlhHQAiAPcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgMDAwMDcwKTI8FUAAKoAANUAAAArAFUr AIArAKorANUrAP8rAABVAFVVAIBVAKpVANVVAP9VAFWAAKqAANWAAP+AAACqAFWqAICqAKqqANWq AP+qAADVAFXVAIDVAKrVANXVAP/VAFX/AID/AKr/ANX/AAAAVVUAVYAAVaoAVdUAVf8AVQArVVUr VYArVaorVdUrVf8rVQBVVVVVVYBVVapVVdVVVf9VVQCAVVWAVYCAVaqAVdWAVf+AVQCqVVWqVYCq VaqqVdWqVf+qVQDVVVXVVYDVVarVVdXVVf/VVQD/VVX/VYD/Var/VdX/Vf//VVUAgKoAgNUAgP8A gAArgFUrgIArgKorgNUrgP8rgABVgFVVgIBVgKpVgNVVgP9VgFWAgKqAgNWAgP+AgACqgFWqgICq gKqqgNWqgP+qgADVgFXVgIDVgKrVgNXVgP/VgAD/gFX/gID/gKr/gNX/gP//gAAAqlUAqoAAqqoA qtUAqv8AqgArqlUrqoArqqorqtUrqv8rqgBVqlVVqoBVqqpVqtVVqv9VqgCAqlWAqoCAqqqAqtWA qv+AqgCqqlWqqoCqqqqqqtWqqv+qqgDVqlXVqoDVqqrVqtXVqv+AIAD/qlX/qoD/qqr/qtX/qv// qgAA1VUA1YAA1aoA1dUA1f8A1QAr1VUr1YAr1aor1dUr1f8r1QBV1VVV1YBV1apV1dVV1f9V1QCA 1VWA1YCA1aqA1dWA1f+A1QCq1VWq1YCq1aqq1dWq1f+q1QDV1VXV1YDV1arV1dXV1f/V1QD/1VX/ 1YD/1ar/1dX/1f//1VUA/4AA/6oA/9UA/wAr/1Ur/4Ar/6or/9Ur//8r/wBV/1VV/4BV/6pV/9VV //9V/wCA/1WA/4CA/6qA/9WA//+A/wCq/1Wq/4Cq/6qq/9Wq//+q/wDV/1XV/4DV/6rV/9XV///V /1X//4D//6r////78KCgpICAgP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD//////yH5BAEAAAcALAAAAAAdACIA AAj+AA8IHEiwoMGDBwEoVIiwYUGGAvHhg+gwIb5/BSVSrDgQAMaPBDUC4CgQwL9///6BxChQJEcA //79+/fv3z+QA10iBPDx379///79WzlQ58MDK//9+/fv3z+QA42WJPrx379//4gyxAeAIICCK//9 +/fv3z+MAPAdwHcAH4COJQHgG7jy379//wDgO4DvAL4DAOACzqcQn0CqgA/gAwwAH+CSJfMRVohv IEgAB/AB1ogPQMmS+SYvxCfwIwB8B/ABEIgPIoCS+QgfwLcQAL4DGAEcwHcAH4B/+FyXBCBbIL6F APABxncAH+B/+FwDEIhv4wF8wvEdwAcYAD4AXgGYOMRXEt8BfAfwHcAH2KB19wfwHcB3AN8BfAB2 AmgIAN8BfAfgcwA+gPH3HmAH4HMAPgfgAxgA/A0wgHUA4HMAPgfgc6BXEk5IEQAH4AMYACQB0KFC +DAEAD4bJnQiPgDgsxAAJHEooUL4tFgRAC8CgA8ANbp3IgD46OgQAD3iA0CQD50IAD5GVnQjPgDg AwCT+uGD5ZYIBQQAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002a01bd3caf$495b3760$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODdhRwAdAMIAAOjo6Hh4eMjIyAAAgP////8AAAAAAAAAACwAAAAARwAdAAAD/gi63P4wyskC vTjnYIH4YCiOZGmeqMAp4OC+cCzPdG3Xq5fu5u3jHR7KVXIRjsikcsl05YQnIulHjT2hxUF2xuwu ncGPVDQWwFraV6jKHlzNWjF6DhdLx+3qG0/Hx8t3eTEFBTJvdWp+MXZrfy+EeZBWYYxpdYwjgI4u kmydL4dnanRkcZgwn4OEnZKdh5ewmGayigOpnIW4j4W8ua9+maNwZ2i6Mqy5tq2+lFhCuzOfyNBu zc471KrZ0sws18/G2srJ02De39jhqLzK28mv6D24q+XIq5Pn8VGCPvD6wfxs+PvXKCCQcwYTChpI sGEJhg4jgljBoaLFixgzatzICrGjx48gQ4rEmAAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <002c01bd3caf$496c0040$4b8cbfa8 default> R0lGODdhgABUAPIAAP///9O2jqr///+q/7bvtr7T7//vnv/PmiwAAAAAgABUAAAD/liwK2sMwBEV BRcqBt19gMOIX3RRwmctBPOJRrlcG1PXUbBsYgMcmNAOoENRBq1NS2bjYEiuSIjZY+hGMwawstgK g1FrVqABKCBDDPr8k04NHlMaswxDieGabkMpl9AoTTg+YC0eDmhYYHIULUMdcoeLc2ZSiFIXPSKO bleFQSkRW1WgQWxHEiI4MgoHIncFaF6xcYlJEm5eKm9hbZOmEVWkAz19QZxSgyUUV7GVWWNuArpN ky+Zgb9fpSakT1kf2clyQJfBk3FukGqLjolXiXyEIN6eYBeOJz5emHBSV83GfdGXZc2Mdc9WfHEE 5IKraudK1Bhg8B+XZ96eXWFC/syNhD8v5sTpsaHVtgbhoAHgJJEdnpfR2IDhoU6ML0uEBs30oeNO MGM1Ej0LAuSUogkeF2wklOmmxaG+5J1ciiuDSjmVxBV5mU1GOSwhKwEhkCFUmxqq0sToxg1ER6gR mbrp+BDMMKbIzKZaFOerqJ9Y50kRKowbk79mZbTUuakggzraMHGTCY1HymlzcUmFlnJwls1XKZ1E GjhNODRxlDR1SsNHGaVzyfr8mu2Ql7XfVh5b7WiD0C6K9IYWrSjy0LtJQb0tJU6LtNwZSZYOxI+g 85ONsCjwZO9jj3gHZ3gwoGADtcywn6X01HlX1AeBWp+0G4R86V7ucawo86rN/p3vQpBxTHLIJIVa chDNs0oIicwmHUwXCTQHaUxwsiB20r0wSxrOfHAgK9d1UcwU50S4oScU4lKJJzgEdI8M7KnETFw+ HPaSVGjY80F36CXokXssoCQZN4Ut1yIhyPlCAiRvrfZWRoLZhVtVFVQEF2BjHBiGQ/XZBNUHo2RH o2PiMMGHA/xEw9wXmPUSgT/pyQfMjCLY019gNHXm45VeNdDQkMKh6UY+xZlBWhBGqsijC+AtZYSX aYJAohx5ETJKUmhx0FEJejVXFGBJ4gTbDZkJWqiaEwnxKWcqpTNIRaspsmo1ICXTIK1nWTLjkZOy OAQZcippkYAjOuFjmiCq/rSFAppIFspWLp5EVk2bZmaPlsXtWBpyxBwqpFvTPhZajFMUGCFMwfrK hX3JccmLToqFl80gJQW5pm6rJckRglEQOhQ2mkVIk5unSnIrcFj9lhtWwiGhJiYCPrOFwwt2QNEQ 4UI5pAxmhfuoC65KMW1a0AByanUwfPPacz49mKDDqOD2lZUQfiJFpHtimkaxIxwmDxR8KOxLk00I hQJ/UQ45HKe5MLxItOTkDMaHb+Jaol9yKMMqMLoNJMRSIsyaac0r1+xJWivjU/IX9eL6M8KvUMBs lB1vza9OP8plWs9Kw8gWZ7+xuI5f8b2EFEAhligiO9lc2tIvbe+lcwcm/isiXzoE/4VYnD2WOKN8 y2FeUChCESo0QTw2xS5x1pD8Szo+VdKbSPRVzXNdtT/8lh7nzmAu0cZy8EqaTFIiVZ7p+eBbq9ro NLfuiS+SCW4jCpdUKJ3m7QgUifjjbdM72REeeonY6I25nZOaXbAXXFHnHBR8JU9ID8lzxaUqGjMc 3qugiblUy/nWoGLTCVEFyyN5wlxYIEaJkFjlMR5SmkeKFakNUCVvOHFX2H6luZ7koBIxGIn0JPU+ aPDsbwiakoQulpxAJQ9y7VJTH2wkpn1N0Gk0FEhYHHY9bfAQDBtS0TyaI8ToNEVPyYudEPnlmecw kV824pf1eqE1AZ4t/jjJuZAz3LAZEkDJhqUZWKzsprmkIFFtU0OUGZ/YKy6mEB1mgqKbcFBCG22l P9iyhvBCU4UAZk5ci5iYR/xixCb28VRwhMoGH4U/0VSRSrpCUBQLpTGcReyJ36uJBCUElykKMGEY MQ4GrbM0rBxmkgPT4wNEV0Z0sXE4wRviJ534OCYKhyUvXOKp1NY2VvIELIr7Iy9euUSNOQVvUURi DxoZBn8V4xJIDBFhwufGi7iPlDibVCv5EqtixYt10OjOYYTmyRhmkph+vGHSMkcKvNHKXFucjzb1 UoUqziuGlgNnLnOZKlNayV+GQgcs5TVKSRHzJjrJ5jkneTA4bXKS/r2AQjmFiZVFBROKxRJd7Jhw noU5DTIB+whwJirPTfZuoChlJdOuQsSqfTAwsSuMS3tkjlRq0mcIGwhyDnYVb9QShdvIQHNANwaI PkphQNqmSVUohBLoyImhcSfcBAa+zBnVBbMrlRMvedFYGtRSSUmdCe9jD784o3omQN+VAoO+w7SJ qqEpQZqkKgQ4mE8b5OrFOXMnRQx27pQlsulTvFbOaFYLJ3StWXjq6RSTiq9zbEzqVBNHkt8I7RkG ySMnJckBhXxhK2xExjJE8cWbYQlnq5tD5F5mTFKWtKmiGk6xCgTQFqL0oJAkTT8LpL9UqVWukf3j aE/Vz7+Fg2cT/tELY4xxQpBxNpL3iYCFovsloM5zrFANTbh6B1hvbCcKhxSIXYs6U8kNxphrMxY0 8cTEgJTvrQhsLBuNaTTIXmglHhqjdbKBIo4tbm9dXR9uz0C6n8Iutt+8SlDAGyWOaCyKnnRZNumi My8p9oBfy241E+y0tIJRQIV7pISQuUaKOlZpZmGMSF8a3mrm5oCXDaZb4aNhlUjVwQYaMb9SizuP IER87nKlV5knx6HkSGSZizFlkAzRyHCra055ZoXx6SbvRqLKZAzMcH05jCUVrUasi+LyfjFGC5u4 OUyFn0csCgbQOmG4X8gmduUbDKbCuYcIkvP1eLpZ9CqIPl1htNNLVctEodijrIFhM1MyAppq1VfH bkpwmpkoFVi8ssmJqZprH3vSIVEPPa4boWj8K1I/C/S2Lm6rvS7yGw0WugpCS61KtgtR/dgSvFe9 sl/TCaXxyEirfUWQrb8qjQei+iZSpgdB0Mce0XUmI2oD7H1i/OuHiYeJT2LClMpsWBWV8E6NRB5s 2So1Bq9TlOi2ce/SxLNQiVJ/bdEmtYHXIx6N1yOEwuWqhR0GL5j6AWfiawkSAAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BD3C74.9D936F40-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 14:06:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22645; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:56:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:56:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980218165551.00b69670 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:55:51 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: tungsten Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980217150538.00aead2c mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jiWR81.0.lX5.0arwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:05 PM 2/17/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >"At incandescence tungsten reacts with all gases, including nitrogen, but >excepting the noble gases helium, neon, argon, krypton, and xenon." > >--from the 1970 Britannica article on tungsten. Actually, I know from experience that this is not true. Tungsten reacts with Xenon to form a metastable compound which will react with quartz to form WXeO3, tungsten xenate. We put a lot of effort into finding how the oxygen was getting in the tubes and to the electrodes, and finally found that it wasn't. Had to open a tube in a vacuum remove the a sample of the deposits, and run it through a mass spectrometer. The mixture of silicon and WXeO3 between them reacted with just about anything. And a lot of tests ended up creating XeO3, Xenon trioxide, which makes nitroglycerine look like a nice plaything. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 14:26:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26246; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:16:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:16:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:15:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ZPE Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980218145520.00b69100 spectre.mitre.org> References: <4646BA03FD hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <70A37F1E5C hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"Da_9g1.0.0Q6.jsrwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > At 07:54 PM 2/16/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: > > 3. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities and can be > >extracted in huge quantities, and thus the very nature of the > >universe can be modified based on what we "mere mortals" do in the > >lab. As I said, this possibility doesn't seem too attractive. (to me > >anyway) > > Welcome to reality... Whether or not you believe that net energy can > be extracted from the ZPE in huge quantities, human activities change the > amount of ZPE in our vicinity. Convert a mass of metal into vapor. You > increase the amount of ZPE. Condense the vapor, and you regain that energy. Yes, but this is typical of ANY conservative force. If I vaporize the aluminum, I have more gravitational potential energy too. Condense it back into a solid lump and I regain it in the form of heat (probably). Potential energy should curve spacetime as much as mass energy or any other form of energy you want to talk about. This is where ZPE is strange. If the ZPE is infinite or at least very very large, then spacetime should be drastically curved -- but it is not. So if I extract a bunch of energy from the vacuum, (energy that will now curve space) the total amount of curvature of the universe should actually change! This would not happen with other conservative forces such as electric, magnetic, or nuclear forces and should not happen if we are talking about ZPE as a conservative force (as in your aluminum example). The weird consequences only come in if it turns out that you can extract big quantities of the ZPE. > Now look at what happens when a star goes supernova. The change in ZPE > from that makes the chnage in density from vaporizing aluminium look > insigificant, and a supernova changes the ZPE levels over a volume light > years in diameter. Yes, it certainly is on a much grander scale than the aluminum experiment, but once again we are talking about the ZPE as a conservative force and therefore no strange, universe altering effects should come into play. > > Robert I. Eachus JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 14:54:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02215; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:48:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:48:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:42:51 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Need help with QM Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802181746_MC2-33DC-815C compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"FCv5w2.0.WY.MLswq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Greetings one and all. I could use a little assistance with the Mizuno book translation from someone who understands quantum mechanics (QM). Chapter 7 has an elementary three page introduction to QM as it pertains to cold fusion according to the theories of E. Conte. It includes 16 equations. It's elementary, but not elementary enough for me, I am sorry to say. With a little help from Encyclopedia Britannica I have translated it, but I honestly cannot tell whether I have made errors. My usual sources of help, Gene and Mizuno himself, are busy. The person who assists in this matter should have the following job qualifications: 1. Have WordPerfect or possibly Microsoft Word (yuch!) in order to read these equations I have laboriously typed in. Translation to RTF format does not work well. I just discovered that HTML works surprisingly well, preserving superscripts, subscripts and whatnot. HTML appears to be the up and coming lingua franca for document exchange . . . but I digress . . . 2. Be willing to work for free. That is, at no charge; without recompense, compensation, remittance, salary, wages, or even a pat on the head and/or back. Possibly Gene might be willing to part with a free copy of the book in return for this help, but you never know, he is something of a skinflint. 3. (Mind you, this is the important qualification.) Know something about QM. Familiarity with the CF paper by Emilo Conte might be a help. I can e-mail you a copy. It is: New Interactions Explaining The Cold Fusion Phenomenologies E. Conte - Centro Studi Radioattivit Bari via D. Alighieri 256, Italia . . . and don't ask me what it's about. The person or persons willing and able to undertake this task should please contact me directly. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 15:56:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12249; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:48:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:48:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34EB4647.2598814A verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:36:23 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: eprint: cond-mat/9802162. (Re:Quantum Tunnelling by Keith Nagel) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0OmGC.0.H_2.-Ctwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Below paper is also include a review of paper announced by Keith Nagel. > Perhaps you might find this of interest > > http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/cond-mat/9802126 > > In light of the recent dicussion of AB effect. > > KPN > > Calling all Italian list members... > Do not mix numbers! cond-mat/9802162 vs cond-mat/9802126. :-) Regards, hamdi ucar cond-mat/9802162 From: Erasmo.Recami mi.infn.it Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:32:02 GMT (37kb) Tunneling Times and "Superluminal" Tunneling: A brief Review Authors: Vladislav S. Olkhovsky, Erasmo Recami Comments: LaTeX; 39 pages; this is the electronic (corrected) version of material appeared in print in Physics Reports (1992) and in J. de Physique-I (1995). The 8 figures will be sent separately (or faxed after request) In the First Part of this paper [that was submitted for pub. in 1991 and appeared in print in Phys. Reports 214 (1992) 339] we critically review the main theoretical definitions and calculations of the sub-barrier tunnelling and reflection times. Moreover, within conventional QM, we propose a new definition of such durations, on the basis of a recent general formalism of ours. At last, we discuss a surprising result: that QM predicts tunnelling through opaque barriers to take place with Superluminal group-velocities. In the Second Part [that appeared in print later, in J. de Physique-I 5 (1995) 1351] we, e.g., present the results of some numerical calculations (based on our equations) on the penetration and return times during tunnelling INSIDE a rectangular potential barrier, and set forth suitable definitions also of the variances, or dispersions, for the transmission and reflection time-durations. The numerical evaluations confirm that our approach implied, and implies, the existence of Superluminal tunnelling (that we called "Hartman effect"): an effect that in these days is receiving ---at Cologne, Berkeley, Florence and Vienna--- indirect, but interesting, experimental verifications. More detailed reviews of the same topics are in the LANL Archive cond-mat/9802126 (and in an Appendix to physics/9712051, where the data are summarized of the experiments that --in four different sectors of physics-- seem to indicate the existence of Superluminal motions). From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 15:56:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12278; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34EB47FF.3C01D732 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:43:43 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm effect as classical phenomena References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kRqly.0.l_2.6Dtwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis, Thanks for the feedback. I seem I found a proof for supporting my claim. May be it is too easy. Am I wrong? : If a coil have no interaction outside, how conventional transformers works? It seems even two coaxial very long coils could work effectively as transformer. Only reservation is Aharonov-Bohm effect is DC based and xformers are AC based. Existence of elect ron's magnetic moment may help this problem. (Due to magnetic moment, displacement of electron could not be idealized as simple displacement of charge or a current) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 16:01:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08587; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:40:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:40:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:21:16 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Larry Wharton , rmforall@earthlink.net, koonin caltech.edu, dg@cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, ationsphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, gene mallove <76570.2270 compuserve.com>, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec snip.net, mica@world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LRU_N3.0.Y52.n5twq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Larry Wharton wrote: ... > I could be wrong, but I see no reason to believe that Bob Bass' Physics > work serves any useful purpose other than an incompetency indicator. If > you think that there is anything valid there then you are incompetent in > Physics. > > I would like to hear if there are any opinions to the contrary > from anyone who sees themselves as competent in Physics. Any discussion of > this should include comparing and contrasting his extensive "Madelung > forces" work with the work of other innovators such as Joe Newman and his > gyroscopic particles. I realize that this distribution list doesn't seem to have set standards of conduct, but since the messages are being cross-posted to VORTEX-L, I'm going to make a comment anyway. No, I'm not competent in physics. Larry, when you point out flaws in Dr. Bass' work, you damage his reputation, but when you attack his reputation directly, using insults like "incompetent" and making veiled accusations about his possible crackpottery, you instead make yourself look bad. Why not maintain high standards of behavior, avoid using insults, and pursue scientific arguments only? Aren't they sufficient? Other than by discovering mathematical flaws, it's difficult to argue against a theory on theoretical grounds alone. Revolutionary physics usually resembles crackpot physics when first proposed, so none of us can entirely trust our judgment regarding "crazy" ideas. Cognitive dissonance is a serious problem in the world of science, and be they wrong or right, "dissonant" ideas tempt us to hurl ridicule. This implies unkind things about we who ridicule, but says little about the ideas in question. Rather than requiring years of psychotherapy and sociological/historical studies of anyone who wishes to pursue physics, I think it's better to habitually ignore our untrustworthy gut responses and instead endeavor to ram the new theory up against the real world and see what happens. So, do Dr. Bass's theories... 1. ...explain phenomena which conventional physics cannot? 2. ...predict unexpected phenomena which, when an investigation is made, are found to actually occur? 3. ...predict novel phenomena which do NOT occur? 4. ...fail to predict real, well-known phenomena which ARE predicted by more conventional theory? #1 is usually not enough. If a new theory explains ball lightning and cold fusion but also (here proposing a random example) predicts that liquid water will undergo spontaneous fusion, then a serious problem is exposed. Peculiar physics is not wrong because it's peculiar, and no amount of derisive comments will convince people otherwise. I would follow the lead Einstein gave when presented with a document entitled "100 against Einstein". He said something along the lines of "One would be sufficient." To burst a balloon, a pinprick often works better than a megaphone. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 16:04:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11204; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:47:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:47:06 -0800 Message-Id: <34EB4703.FD4EB088 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:39:31 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: eprints: physics/9802030, physics/9802031, physics/9802033 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0S81N1.0.nk2.uBtwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Three interesting new papers(probably, more than interesting for who can follow equations :-) ): Avalable from xxx.lanl.gov Regards, hamdi ucar physics/9802030 From: Bernhard Haisch Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:29:44 GMT (41kb) Contribution to inertial mass by reaction of the vacuum to accelerated motion Authors: Alfonso Rueda, Bernhard Haisch Comments: See also the companion paper physics/9802031 Report-no: SAL-97-12 We present an approach to the origin of inertia involving the electromagnetic component of the quantum vacuum and propose this as an alternative to Mach's principle. Preliminary analysis of the momentum flux of the classical zero-point radiation impinging on accelerated objects as viewed by an inertial observer suggests that the resistance to acceleration attributed to inertia may be at least in part a force of opposition originating in the vacuum. This analysis avoids the ad hoc modeling of particle-field interaction dynamics used previously to derive a similar result. This present approach is not dependent upon what happens at the particle point, but on how an external observer assesses the kinematical characteristics of the zero-point radiation impinging on the accelerated object. A relativistic form of the equation of motion results from the present analysis. Its covariant form yields a simple result that may be interpreted as a contribution to inertial mass. Our approach is related by the principle of equivalence to Sakharov's conjecture of a connection between Einstein action and the vacuum. The argument presented may thus be construed as a descendant of Sakharov's conjecture by which we attempt to attribute a mass-giving property to the electromagnetic component -- and possibly other components-- of the vacuum. In this view the physical momentum of an object is related to the radiative momentum flux of the vacuum instantaneously contained in the characteristic proper volume of the object. The interaction process between the accelerated object and the vacuum (akin to absorption or scattering of electromagnetic radiation) appears to generate a physical resistance (reaction force) to acceleration suggestive of what has been historically known as inertia. physics/9802031 From: Bernhard Haisch Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:47:13 GMT (16kb) Inertia as reaction of the vacuum to accelerated motion Authors: Alfonso Rueda, Bernhard Haisch Comments: Physics Letters A, in press. See also companion paper physics/9802030 Report-no: SAL-98-01 It was proposed by Haisch, Rueda and Puthoff (Phys. Rev. A, 49, 678, 1994) that the inertia of matter could be interpreted at least in part as a reaction force originating in interactions between the electromagnetic zero-point field (ZPF) and the elementary charged consitutents (quarks and electrons) of matter. Within the limited context of that analysis, it appeared that Newton's equation of motion, f=ma, could be inferred from Maxwell's equations as applied to the ZPF, i.e. the stochastic electrodynamics (SED) version of the quantum vacuum. We report on a new approach which avoids the ad hoc particle-field interaction model (Planck oscillator) of that analysis, as well as its concomitant formulational complexity. Instead, it is shown that a non-zero ZPF momentum flux arises naturally in accelerating coordinate frames from the standard relativistic transformations of electromagnetic fields. Scattering of this ZPF momentum flux by an object will yield a reaction force that may be interpreted as a contribution to the object's inertia. This new formulation is properly covariant yielding the relativistic equation of motion. Our approach is related by the principle of equivalence to Sakharov's conjecture of a connection between Einstein action and the vacuum. If correct, this concept would substitute for Mach's principle and imply that no further mass-giving Higgs-type fields may be required to explain the inertia of material objects, although extensions to include the zero-point fields of the other fundamental interactions may be necessary for a complete theory of inertia. Electromagnetic Waves in the Vacuum with Torsion and Spin Authors: R. M. Kiehn Comments: SW-20 latex2e 6 pages Report-no: rmkuh298 Exact radiative wave solutions to the classical homogeneous Maxwell equations in the vacuum have been found that are not transverse, exhibit both torsion and spin, and for which the second Poincare invariant, E.B, is not zero. Two four component rank 3 tensors of spin current and torsion are constructed on topological grounds. The divergence of each pseudo vector generates the Poincare invariants of the electromagnetic system. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 16:07:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18885; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:04:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:04:45 -0800 Message-ID: <34EB772B.9E2EF0D6 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:04:59 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Webpages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MekeQ2.0.gc4.QStwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Can everyone who has a webpage generally on-topic for this mailing list please post their url now rather than tell us to go to their webpage but not give the url or like some just inform us that the webpage was there just when it is coming down. John Berry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 16:22:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16696; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:13:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:13:42 -0800 (PST) From: arager mcgraw-hill.com Message-Id: <199802190012.AA14239 interlock.mgh.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 17:05:15 -0500 To: Subject: Re: Butch - Anton - Greg/RMOG/SMOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HVuNP.0.n44.oatwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Steve/All, >note: there is an engine called a 'sterling' or silver EXTERNAL >combustion engine that i think may even be in use by nasa, (will >check on that).. anyway it is two (2) balanced chambers with one (1) >piston going back and forth (using the sun if i recall for power! >someone out there, I'm sure will update me or correct this.) If I remember correctly, the Stirling engine is a heat engine. It uses a piston and expanding gases to produce torque. I don't remember it being related to magnetics. Seem to remember seeing a guy who was using a small candle to power his Stirling motor.....really cool. >So, I guess I suggesting something like a BMW motercycle Left/Right >piston effect (or Left/Right Coil on/off), while you both pursue your >rotary designs. This would NOT need super-quick switches to handle >the coil feeds, as the momentum of the rod stroke would have the KE >to move past the Center Null area. (full stroke power at blue-hole >area / instead of area to overcome )o/u(. Not sure I follow. Are you suggesting using a coil for both magnetic propulsion and gas expansion [heat] as a helper for getting the ferrous piston thru the opposing permanent magnet fields [and back to an imbalanced state]? Not sure the coil will produce enough heat to be usefull in a Stirling....... New slant -- Will think about it a bit more. Keep brainstorming, Anton Rager arager McGraw-Hill.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 16:51:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21506; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:38:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:38:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EB7F45.339E gorge.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:39:33 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament References: <199802182105.NAA14710 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LvuIP2.0.tF5.jxtwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > Since the KNO2 is visibly moist, this could > easily be water loss. Water evaporation could be the cause of the "excess" gas pressure noted. If, the KNO2 was "visibly moist," both before and after heating, it makes me think that the catalyst never reached 300 deg. C. If it had, shouldn't *ALL* oof the "moisture" have vaporized? Maybe the KNO2 could be baked dry, before being placed in the chamber. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 18:23:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22902; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:14:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:14:41 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980218215804.00af9e68 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:58:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: eprint: cond-mat/9802162. (Re:Quantum Tunnelling by Keith Nagel) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"z37-g2.0.kb5.FMvwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:36 PM 2/18/98 +0300, you wrote: >Do not mix numbers! cond-mat/9802162 vs cond-mat/9802126. :-) > >Regards, > >hamdi ucar > >cond-mat/9802162 >Tunneling Times and "Superluminal" Tunneling: A brief Review > > More detailed reviews of the same topics are in the LANL Archive > cond-mat/9802126 (and in an Appendix to physics/9712051, where the data are summarized of the > experiments that --in four different sectors of physics-- seem to indicate the existence of Superluminal > motions). Well, at the time I posted 9802126 was the only guy on the block, as you can see. Thanks for the tip on 62... BTW, does anyone have a translation of 26? It's the experiments I'm interested in. Frankly, this stuff is starting to remind me of arguments during the middle ages over the number of angels that can sit on a pinhead. Doesn't anyone care about what actually happens in the physical world anymore? Crankier than my age permits, KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 18:27:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07798; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:22:03 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:22:03 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:17:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3cdc$7aa75420$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"WYQA91.0.iv1.8Tvwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16090 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Tom Miller To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament >Scott Little wrote: >> Since the KNO2 is visibly moist, this could >> easily be water loss. The Hydrogen reacting with KNO2 is going to make water: 2 H2 + 2 KNO2 ----> 2 H2O + K2O + N2O or such, then H2O + K2O ----> 2 KOH (M.P. 360 C) KOH requires a temperature of 720 deg C to have a vapor pressure of 1 Torr. The N2O Nitrous Oxide (laughing gas)could account for the pressure rise. :-) The Platinum Filament at 1400 C should form the K+ + e- if there was any K getting there as the oxide KOx or KOH. > >Water evaporation could be the cause of the "excess" gas pressure >noted. If, the KNO2 was "visibly moist," both before and after >heating, it makes me think that the catalyst never reached 300 deg. C. >If it had, shouldn't *ALL* oof the "moisture" have vaporized? No, The nitrates make good drying agents. > >Maybe the KNO2 could be baked dry, before being placed in the chamber. Wouldn't buy you anything, Tom, it's not hurting anything with the platinum filament. The trick is going to be getting enough vapor pressure into the potassium compounds to carry enough of them to the filament. Regards, Frederick > >Tom Miller > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 19:43:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22990; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:38:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:38:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re; BLP Run 13 - Pt filament Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:33:01 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3ce7$14f11de0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"xZeNZ3.0.xc5.Mawwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: With Hydrogen and Oxygen available in the system, which is why the Pt filament is used,the potassium compound that is invariably ended up with is KOH. The Nitrate KNO3 and the nitrite KNO2 will be reduced to water, NOx and KOH, no matter what the intermediates are. The NOx will eventually end up as water and N2 also. It looks like Mills recognized this and opted for the Nitrate-Nitrites as good a K source as any. They decompose rather violently at about 400 C,whereas KOH which melts at about 360 C and has to be at 720 C to get a vapor pressure of one Torr. At 260 C the vapor pressure, at a guess would be in the micro-torr range, which would give something like 2.7E13 KOH or KNOx molecules/cm^3 and deliver about 1.0E15/cm^2 sec to the filament? Unlike the "dry" Tungsten-H2-K setup there is no way to reduce a K compound to get the Potassium metal, as anything you do will end up as KOH and H2. :-) A look-see at the vapor pressure of KOH-KNOx at 260 C or on top of the cartridge heater would be worthwhile, otherwise a heated iron "boat" of sorts for KOH would be the best option. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 21:08:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05674; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:56:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:56:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EBADA5.2E37 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:57:25 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Hansen: Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues, tournament of replication References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <3 4E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EADEA7.1CF3@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"x4-fP3.0.WO1.njxwq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16092 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Feb. 18, 1998 Lee Hansen [ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu]: [For the record: I have not seen Miles application. It is common knowledge that he, like most of our former graduates, has a file with the department. Since he is willing to publicly call me a liar and send letters to the university president stating the same, I do not think it inappropriate to publicly let him know that such statements are being made a part of his file. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused for Rich Murray. Beyond that, Rothwell's comments are not worth a response. Lee Hansen] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 21:11:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA32650; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:04:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:04:50 -0800 Message-ID: <34EBB001.824 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:07:29 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Jones: Miles: Hansen, Jones References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <3 4E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EADEA7.1CF3@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"4u0FH1.0.rz7.mrxwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16093 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: Re: Miles: Hansen, Jones Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:07:41 MST7MDT From: "STEVE JONES" Organization: BYU Dept. of Physics and Astronomy To: rmforall earthlink.net Gentlemen, While I retain some interest in "cold fusion" (outside of muon-catalyzed fusion), my major hope for a large fraction of humanity is, rather, solar energy. As some of you already know, I have developed with students here an inexpensive yet highly effective solar cooker, which involves no electricity or moving parts. This "Solar Funnel Cooker" is safe and has been sent to the Altiplano in Bolivia and to a village in Guatemala (January 1998) for testing. In both cases, the cooker was well-received. Fully half the world's population relies on burning wood, dung or other biomass for cooking their meals at present. This device costs a fraction of the solar box cooker, yet outperforms it in tests here and in Bolivia. This is my hope for the future. Nevertheless, since a recent post contains several errors in fact, I feel duty-bound to try to set the record straight. Mel Miles writes: Subject: JONES/HANSEN Resent-Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:13:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:28:42 +-900 From: Melvin Miles Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: "'Vortex'" e-mail 02/17/98 To: Vortex I agree completely with Jed Rothwell's comments concerning Jones and Hansen (see Takahashi's TC troubles). I attended Dr. Takahashi's seminar at Texas A & M and totally support Jed's comments. Dr. Takahashi's large excess heat effect continued for many days and cannot be explained away by a thermocouple problem in spite of Hansen's delusions. It is obvious that Jones and Hansen have minds set in concrete against any possibility for valid excess heat measurements. JONES: My judgement in this matter is influenced by years of experiments, which reveal no excess heat in fact. Our results have been published, and discussed on this e-mail service of Rich Murray's. But, no, my mind is not set "against any possibility for valid heat measurements." Indeed, we have a standing invitation to researchers to come here and show us their excess heat -- or neutrons or gammas or charged particles. We are open to such demonstrations. Miles: They are experts at trashing any scientific work reporting excess heat and specialize in distortions and misrepresentations. Dr. Reiko Notoya of Hokkaido University has encountered similar problems with Jones and Hansen regarding false statements about her experiments. JONES: BYU Graduate Student David Beuhler took measurements on the Notoya demonstration years ago at the Nagoya Conference. These measurements were the basis of our concluding that she had not in fact demonstrated excess heat in a light-water cell as she claimed -- and we have published our findings. Just what statements does Miles claim are false? Does he ever substantiate such accusations? The following letter illustrates my viewpoint on this subject. MILES: Email and Letter 02/17/98 Dr. Melvin H. Miles The Institute of Applied Energy New Hydrogen Energy Laboratory 3-5 Techno Park 2-Chome, Shimonopporo Atsubetsu-ku, Sapporo-004, Japan 81-11-898-6391 - Phone 81-11-898-6390 - Fax miles nhelab.iae.or.jp - work February 17, 1998 Dr. Steven E. Jones Department of Physics and Astronomy Brigham Young University Provo, Utah 84602-5700 Dear Dr. Jones: I don't really understand how you can expect peace between us following your relentless attacks against my cold fusion results for the past six or seven years. JONES: Several years ago, Dr. Miles challenged me to express my scientific objections to his publications in print. I accepted that challenge, and published my scientific objections in: J. Phys. Chem. 99:6973-6979, May 1995. I encouraged the editor of this journal to publish Miles' response, which I understand is forthcoming. This is the way science ought to be conducted, and I asked Mel to cease his unrelenting ad hominem attacks. Alas, he declined this request to discuss our differing viewpoints without personal attacks (as we shall see in his following remarks recently made public). MILES: I especially don't like the way this all began when you invited me to give a seminar at BYU in 1991. Instead of the normal seminar that I expected, this became a 3-hour inquisition by you and your co-workers. This was shortly followed by your distribution of written criticisms of my work based on my seminar. This was all highly improper conduct for a representative of a university towards an invited guest. JONES: Mel's statements are exaggerated. Having talked to people who were in attendance at Mel's seminar, and having been there myself, I can say that the seminar went from 4 p.m. to about 5:30 p.m., which is not at all uncommon for seminars in our department. Yes, we posed some tough questions and found Miles' answers wanting. However, this was hardly an "inquisition", as we parted cordially that early evening. I remember that clearly. My written criticisms were posted on s.p.f., based on Miles et al.'s publications and on Mel's comments on s.p.f. MILES: Since I am also a member of the LDS church, I am disturbed by your calling as a Mormon Bishop. How can you be an example for religious standards when you indulge in scientific distortions and outright dishonesty? I know you try to present yourself as a very nice person, but your actions show a totally different character. JONES: These are ad hominem attacks, without substantiation. This is just the sort of attack which I asked Mel to repent of. Now I ask Dr. Miles to substantiate his claims of "scientific distortions and outright dishonesty," or to offer an apology as public as his unsubstantiated accusations. MILES: It is really a shame that cold fusion had such a bad beginning. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons obviously needed much more time to check their results, yet you insisted on going public with your sloppy experiments that reported measurements of a few neutrons. This forced Fleischmann and Pons into that 1989 premature press conference. JONES: Oh, so the "premature press conference" of P&F is now my fault!! No, I decline responsibility for their press conference. They are big boys, responsible for this. Indeed, I objected to it vehemently as did others here -- as soon as we heard of it (a day or two before it took place, over our strong objections). Nor did I insist on going public with "sloppy experiments" as Mel here claims. First, our experiments began in the spring of 1986, were supported by the DOE, and our results published following peer review in NATURE in April 1989. Second, University of Utah Pres. Peterson came to BYU in March of 1989 with P&F, and it was Peterson who insisted that we submit papers within a few weeks, jointly. This was not my idea! P&F submitted there paper, alone, without informing us, to J. Electroanal. Chem. then had their infamous press conference -- all this before the agreed on date for joint submission of our two papers to Nature. MILES: You were never able to reproduce your results, hence you became an aggressive critic of this field. It seems that you first wanted to claim credit for this discovery. When that failed, you then sought fame as a major cold fusion critic. JONES: We reproduced our results at Los Alamos working with Howard Menlove, and published these results in the Journal of Fusion Energy. Some of those results have since been retracted (due to electrical breakdown in the LANL detectors). What discovery? Certainly not the claims of excess heat due to cold fusion! (Yes, we thought we had discovered, independently and before P&F, evidence for neutron emissions.) Can you substantiate your claim that I sought fame as a major CF critic? I know of myself that I did not seek this. MILES:: In contrast to your activities in this field, I have simply tried to honestly report whatever results I obtained. JONES: That is what I have tried to do, including a published retraction. But then what are we to make of your repeated, unsubstantiated ad hominem attacks? MILES: In fact, my first publication covering six months of research reported no excess heat or any other anomalous effects. My early work was even cited in the notorious Energy Research Advisory Board (ERAB) report along with Cal Tech, MIT, and Harwell as a laboratory reporting no cold fusion effects. This was in 1989 during the same time period when you were claiming neutrons in your Nature publication. Cold fusion is a very difficult research field, but I am convinced that excess heat and nuclear products are present in some experiments. Because of your activities along with the vigorous opposition to cold fusion by many other critics, I am concerned that cold fusion research will dwindle away and that this potential new energy source will have to wait for future generations. JONES: My own experiments in this area (J. Phys. Chem. 99: 6966-6972, and Thermochimica Acta 297: 7-15, etc.) lead me to a different conclusion. As a scientist, I am duty bound to report my results in the scientific literature. You do the same -- I have encouraged publication of your rebuttal to one of our papers, for instance. This process -- not ad hominem attacks -- is the path to a new energy source. However, my hope for this rides with the Solar Cooker at the present time. Sincerely, Dr. Melvin H. Miles Guest Researcher - NHE Laboratory cc: President, Brigham Young University cc: Dr. Lee D. Hansen, Brigham Young University JONES: Why did Miles "cc" this letter, to the President of Brigham Young University? I would really like to know. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 18 21:11:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00340; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:06:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:06:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34EBBE0B.927A5D85 ro.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:07:23 -0600 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Webpages X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <34EB772B.9E2EF0D6 ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dZdYo.0.55.2txwq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16094 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Berry wrote: > Can everyone who has a webpage generally on-topic for this mailing > list > please post their url now rather than tell us to go to their webpage > but > > not give the url or like some just inform us that the webpage was > there > just when it is coming down. > > John Berry http://ro.com/~preavis/Delta-G/Delta-G.htm -- Patrick V. Reavis Student at Large /\ / \ / G \ ~~~~~~~~ DELTA-G From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 00:04:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00863; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:00:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:00:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:58:22 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november Reply-To: Steve Ekwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Butch - Anton - Greg/RMOD/SMOT In-Reply-To: <199802190012.AA14239 interlock.mgh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zRzXv.0.PD.KQ-wq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16095 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 arager mcgraw-hill.com wrote: snip > If I remember correctly, the Stirling engine is a heat engine. It > uses a piston and expanding gases to produce torque. I don't remember > it being related to magnetics. Seem to remember seeing a guy who was > using a small candle to power his Stirling motor.....really cool. > > >So, I guess I suggesting something like a BMW motercycle Left/Right > >piston effect (or Left/Right Coil on/off), while you both pursue your > >rotary designs. This would NOT need super-quick switches to handle > >the coil feeds, as the momentum of the rod stroke would have the KE > >to move past the Center Null area. (full stroke power at blue-hole > >area / instead of area to overcome )o/u(. > > Not sure I follow. Are you suggesting using a coil for both magnetic > propulsion and gas expansion [heat] as a helper for getting the ferrous > piston thru the opposing permanent magnet fields [and back to an imbalanced > state]? Not sure the coil will produce enough heat to be usefull in a > Stirling....... > > > New slant -- Will think about it a bit more. > > Keep brainstorming, > > > Anton Rager > arager McGraw-Hill.com > Sorry that wasn't clear, No Heat in my last idea, just twin-opposing coils with the null point in the center of the left or right charging coil. This should double or 1/2 (your choice) the blue-hole potential. this is a 3D / 4D(if we add zpe) design going laterally to tourque of center null-point... I'll see if I can get a gif back to you as ascii just won't handle it. this is not a heated-piston effect, (although thanks for the 'Stirling' reminder with the candle - that was the idea) WE, Greg et all.. need MINIMUM effect coil change at the point of MAXIMUM (blue-hole) exiting, at the blue-hole area. (little coil power - max stroke or turn). this "machine" is getting more complex (linear to rotary) before we can even control the blue-hole. -=se=- "What is a man but his passions?" -- Robert Penn Warren, American author, poet and critic (1905-1989). go-go-go :) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 03:59:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28152; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:56:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:56:45 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:53:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3d2c$f6bd5320$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"h0mIA2.0.mt6.xt1xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16096 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vapor Pressure Microns Hg vs T deg K 1000 10000 40000 100000 KOH 992 1136 1249 1337 NaOH 1012 1170 1290 1384 KNO3 ? :-) :-( KNO2 ? :-) :-( Never could extrapolate very well. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 04:26:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17924; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:24:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:24:16 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34EC241C.568453B3 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:22:52 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SXwDQ1.0.-N4.kH2xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16097 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: William Beaty wrote: > I realize that this distribution list doesn't seem to have set standards > of conduct, but since the messages are being cross-posted to VORTEX-L, I'm > going to make a comment anyway. Gee, I thought Rich started his own list so this sort of thing would STOP. Hmm, I thought he was told to stop too. I must be mistaken. Grrrrr. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 05:11:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22024; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 05:08:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 05:08:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980219130654.00697fc4 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:06:54 -0500 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"dPAAE3.0.2O5.Ix2xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16099 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:53 AM 2/19/98 -0700, you wrote: > Vapor Pressure Microns Hg vs T deg K > > 1000 10000 40000 100000 > >KOH 992 1136 1249 1337 > >NaOH 1012 1170 1290 1384 > >KNO3 ? :-) :-( > >KNO2 ? :-) :-( > >Never could extrapolate very well. :-) > >Regards, Frederick > What are the vapor pressures of KCl, KBr, KI and any other high temperature stable K+ salts? Since Scott is not using Pd or Pt catalysts to assist formation of H atoms could he not use one of the potassium halides if the vapor pressure is more favorable than KOH or K2O? (The halides "poison" the catalytic activity of Pd and Pt.) Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 05:20:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21959; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 05:08:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 05:08:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980219070725.00893600 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:07:25 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) In-Reply-To: <01bd3d2c$f6bd5320$LocalHost default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ym4mC2.0.xM5.xw2xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16098 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:53 AM 2/19/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Vapor Pressure Microns Hg vs T deg K > 1000 10000 40000 100000 >KOH 992 1136 1249 1337 This is a joke, right? 100,000 K? I've been thinking about three things: 1. It's no wonder that EG&G decided to use their initials for the name of their company (thanks, George). 2. Maybe I need to have another heater in the system specifically for the catalyst vial so I can control the catalyst temp as needed to obtain vaporization/decompostion. 3. I think I'll try the metallic K next. It's not strict BLP...but it sounds good. We might even see a little excitement around the lab...if I manage to start a fire with it. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 06:23:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00216; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:14:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:14:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:10:00 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3d40$10e6bbc0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"Sfx8t2.0.I3.pu3xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16100 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 10:18 PM Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) >At 04:53 AM 2/19/98 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> Vapor Pressure Microns Hg vs T deg K > >> 1000 10000 40000 100000 >>KOH 992 1136 1249 1337 > >This is a joke, right? 100,000 K? No, Scott that is the pressure in MICRONS ie. 100 torr it just makes the extrapolation easier for me. :-) A rough estimate of Vapor pressure: Log10 P = - 0.05223a/T + b Torr a = 136,000 b = 7.33 makes the vapor pressure for KOH about 2.2E-6 Torr at 550 Kelvin. That is (2.2E-6/760)* 2.69E19 or 7.8E10 molecules/cm^3 ie, about 7.8E14 collisions/cm^2 of the filament/second. But, these are diluted by the other molecules by a factor of E6 or so. Thus if you got any excess heat under these conditions it would be remarkable. > >I've been thinking about three things: > >1. It's no wonder that EG&G decided to use their initials for the name of >their company (thanks, George). "Doc" Edgerton wrote the book on strobe light photography "egg" has built quite an empire over the last 40 years. >2. Maybe I need to have another heater in the system specifically for the >catalyst vial so I can control the catalyst temp as needed to obtain >vaporization/decompostion. It looks that way if you want to get the Potassium-Potassium-carrier up to meaningful numbers. > >3. I think I'll try the metallic K next. It's not strict BLP...but it >sounds good. If you put it in the H2-H2O environment it will react with H2O to make KOH + H2 anyhow, then what? We might even see a little excitement around the lab...if I >manage to start a fire with it. Keep some sand and wet rags around. Works great. Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 06:23:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17456; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:13:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:13:27 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Edwin Strojny" Cc: Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:47:40 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3d3c$f226c0c0$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"1_AEj.0.eG4.5u3xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16101 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Edwin Strojny To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 10:07 PM Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) >At 04:53 AM 2/19/98 -0700, you wrote: >> Vapor Pressure Microns Hg vs T deg K >> >> 1000 10000 40000 100000 >> >>KOH 992 1136 1249 1337 >> >>NaOH 1012 1170 1290 1384 >> >>KNO3 ? :-) :-( >> >>KNO2 ? :-) :-( >> >>Never could extrapolate very well. :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick >> >What are the vapor pressures of KCl, KBr, KI and any other high temperature >stable K+ salts? Since Scott is not using Pd or Pt catalysts to assist >formation of H atoms could he not use one of the potassium halides if the >vapor pressure is more favorable than KOH or K2O? (The halides "poison" the >catalytic activity of Pd and Pt.) You wouldn't want the halogens around platinum, Ed, it would ruin it in a hurry! Regards, Frederick > >Ed Strojny > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 08:23:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19879; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:15:47 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Message-ID: <77533e5b.34ec5a49 aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:13:56 EST To: eachus mitre.org, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: ZPE Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"fDFXY1.0.Vs4.mg5xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16102 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/18/98 2:01:22 PM, eachus mitre.org wrote: <<3. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities and can be >extracted in huge quantities, and thus the very nature of the >universe can be modified based on what we "mere mortals" do in the >lab. As I said, this possibility doesn't seem too attractive. (to me >anyway)>> Frank Znidarsic would probably say, "no problemo." Any ZPE turned into useful positive energy would be accompanied by an equal amount of associated negative gravitational energy, and so no net change in the universe would occur. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 08:25:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20940; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:21:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:21:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980219232111.006b71ec world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:21:11 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Re: ZPE In-Reply-To: <77533e5b.34ec5a49 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4vO-d3.0.375.Hm5xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16103 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:13 AM 2/19/98 EST, Hal Puthoff wrote: > >In a message dated 2/18/98 2:01:22 PM, eachus mitre.org wrote: > ><<3. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities and can be >>extracted in huge quantities, and thus the very nature of the >>universe can be modified based on what we "mere mortals" do in the >>lab. As I said, this possibility doesn't seem too attractive. (to me >>anyway)>> > >Frank Znidarsic would probably say, "no problemo." Any ZPE turned into useful >positive energy would be accompanied by an equal amount of associated negative >gravitational energy, and so no net change in the universe would occur. > Exactly, in clear English - if possible - what is "negative gravitational energy"? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 09:25:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04497; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:18:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:18:43 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980219171812.00693984 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:18:12 -0500 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"mYRXN2.0.b51.jb6xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16104 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:47 AM 2/19/98 -0700, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Edwin Strojny >To: Frederick J. Sparber >Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com >Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 10:07 PM >Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) > > >>At 04:53 AM 2/19/98 -0700, you wrote: >>What are the vapor pressures of KCl, KBr, KI and any other high temperature >>stable K+ salts? Since Scott is not using Pd or Pt catalysts to assist >>formation of H atoms could he not use one of the potassium halides if the >>vapor pressure is more favorable than KOH or K2O? (The halides "poison" the >>catalytic activity of Pd and Pt.) > >You wouldn't want the halogens around platinum, Ed, it would ruin it in a >hurry! > >Regards, Frederick >> >>Ed Strojny >> What is the product from the reaction of KCl with Pt? If it is a K-Pt salt then why not use that as the catalyst? How about some other K+ salts such as KBO2, KCN, K2SiO3, K4P2O7, KCN, K2SO4? Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 10:05:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18705; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:00:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:00:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34EC7324.60CF interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:00:04 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Aharonov Bohm --Hamdi References: <3.0.32.19980208141209.00b1b188 cnct.com> <34E0A223.B5CFC788@verisoft.com.tr> <34E0F9CC.6352@interlaced.net> <34EB47FF.3C01D732@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oFLv7.0.mZ4.QC7xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16105 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > Francis, > > Thanks for the feedback. I seem I found a proof for supporting my claim. May be it is too easy. Am I wrong? : > > If a coil have no interaction outside, how conventional transformers works? It seems even two coaxial very long coils could work effectively as transformer. Only reservation is Aharonov-Bohm effect is DC based and xformers are AC based. Existence of ele ctron's magnetic moment may help this problem. (Due to magnetic moment, displacement of electron could not be idealized as simple displacement of charge or a current) > Yes, transformers work even without detectable external flux from the primary. To me it seems like magic! :-) In regard to the electron in motion, the moving charge effect is like the Biot-law field - it falls like 1/r^2 from the electron while, the dipole moment falls like 1/r^3, right? So, in a macroscopic experiment it seems that the 1/r^2 field would have stronger range and would predominate. Does this make sense? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 10:22:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12805; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:14:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:14:08 -0800 (PST) From: Puthoff aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:10:48 EST To: mica world.std.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Re: ZPE Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"3fp_c1.0.-73.eP7xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16106 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/19/98 10:23:32 AM, mica world.std.com wrote: << Exactly, in clear English - if possible - what is "negative gravitational energy"?>> Attractive forces have associated negative potential energies or "wells," (gravity, nuclear, coulomb attraction). That's why we say we are at the bottom of the earth's "gravity well." It takes positive energy expenditure (e.g., from a rocket) to get out, that is, to overcome the negative potential energy associated with the earth's attractive gravitational force. (For gravity the attractive newtonian force F = -GMm/r^2 between a mass m and the earth's mass M can be derived from the associated negative potential of the earth U = - GM/r by F = -m grad V, and the associated potential energy of the mass m is then V = - GmM/r.) The total energy (kinetic plus potential) of a satellite in orbit, for example, is given by E = T + V = (1/2)mv^2 - GmM/r; the negative sign in from of the potential energy magnitude is what leads to the expression "negative gravitational energy." Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 11:14:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20343; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:52:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:52:22 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender johnste ecg.csg.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <34EC7E90.699D9682 ecg.csg.mot.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:48:48 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Discusion Group Subject: Engineering Reference Site Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------20510DE40E58811E2D093772" Resent-Message-ID: <"Sjrzd2.0.iz4.Tz7xq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16107 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------20510DE40E58811E2D093772 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not sure if this site is known to everyone here. I was sifting through my book marks and actually forgot I had this this gem. Thought I would share: -- John E. Steck Prototype Tooling Motorola Inc. --------------20510DE40E58811E2D093772 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1; name="www.designinfo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="www.designinfo.com" Content-Base: "http://www.designinfo.com" = DesignInfo - Searchable Engineering Catalogs on the Net
3D""3D"*Home"3D""3D""3D"Feedback"3D""3D"= 3D""
3D"Welcome 3D"=3D"=3D"Abou=
3D"=
3D""
3D""
3D"www.designinfo.com"
The DesignInfo Advantage... Spec Searchtm Links Engineers to = Products Instantly!

If you're an engineer, researcher, ma= nager, or buyer responsible for testing, inspection, measurement, evaluation, fabrication, or design then= this site is for you!

Search hundred= s of online catalogs
using your specifications in one easy step!
Start your Sea= rch Now

Something to think about...

If you only keep adding little by little, it will soon become a big heap.=
- Hesiod (ca. 700 B.C.)

About = DesignInfo: Who we are, What we do, Our audience


= Start Spec Searchtm
Sele= ct a product area to begin your search. Click on "Help!" at the top of t= he page to get oriented.
Sensors, Instruments, Gauges, Meters:
Accelerometers / Vibration<= /A>
Flow
Force/Load
Gas Sensors
Humidity / Dew-Point /=
   Moisture=
Level Sensors
Magnetic Field
Pressure
Tilt Sensors
Torque
Velocity

Temperature:
Temperature (Contact)<= BR> Non-Contact Temperature
RTD Elements
Thermistor Elements


Linear Position:
All Linear Position Cable Extension
Capacitance
Eddy Current
Fiber Optic
Inductive
Linear Encoders
LVDTs
Optical Triangulation Ultrasonic

Rotary Position:
Rotary Encoders
Rotary (Angular)
   Position=

Proximity/Presence:
Inductive Proximity Ultrasonic Proximity Photoelectric "Presence"
   Detector= s

Video/Imaging & Optics:
Frame Grabbers
Video Cameras
Fiberoptic Light Guides

 Lab & Test Equipment,
Data Acquisiti= on:
Data Acquisition
Dataloggers
Chart Recorders / Strip
   Charts
Scopes / Oscilloscopes=
Signal Conditioning

Controllers:
Motion Control

Motors:
AC Motors
DC Motors
Linear Motors
Stepper Motors

Positioning Stages:
Linear Stages
Rotary Stages

Mechanical Components:
Ball Bearings
Roller Bearings
Flexible Couplings
=

Coming Soon...
Linear Bearings, Clutches & Brakes, More Couplings

We welcome your comments and suggestions=
DesignInfo, 1223 Peoples Ave, Troy, NY, 12180; (518) 785-9849
Copyright © 1996, 1997, 1998 DesignInfotm - All rights re= served

--------------20510DE40E58811E2D093772-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 12:02:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00496; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:55:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:55:25 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980219133543.0073e954 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:35:43 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: scanner = close-up camera Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"l5FZX.0.U7.hu8xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16108 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: We got a Mustek 1200 III EP scanner and it serves nicely as a close-up camera for relatively flat subjects. Check out: http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/newfil.jpg which is a picture of a new tungsten filament, the kind we've been using in the BLP experiments, sitting next to a ruler with marks every 1/2 mm. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 12:04:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01845; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:57:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:57:51 -0800 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:29:37 -0500 To: rmforall earthlink.net, koonin@caltech.edu, dg@cco.caltech.edu, collis netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, knuke aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, wireless amigo.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF Resent-Message-ID: <"qU1F61.0.dS.zw8xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16109 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill Beaty has made some good comments to which I would like to respond. >Other than by discovering mathematical flaws, it's difficult to argue >against a theory on theoretical grounds alone. Here you are assuming the normal technique whereby one begins with accepted basic Physics and through mathematical analysis derives some result. Then the only question is the validity of the mathematics. In the case of Dr. Bass' work, he assumes a new force, the "Madelung forces", which is in no way any part of accepted physics. >So, do Dr. Bass's theories... > > 1. ...explain phenomena which conventional physics cannot? > > 2. ...predict unexpected phenomena which, when an investigation is > made, are found to actually occur? > > 3. ...predict novel phenomena which do NOT occur? > > 4. ...fail to predict real, well-known phenomena which ARE predicted by > more conventional theory? Since only Dr. Bass does "Madelung forces" calculations, all we have is that which he provides and that is just number 1. There is no doubt that Dr. Bass has explained phenomena which conventional physics cannot. The problem is that he has done so through the assumption of an imaginary new force. Most physicists like to see just the four basic forces: gravitational, electric, strong and weak. If a new force or a modification of an existing force is hypothesized then the basic experiments to test it should be devised and performed. That is the procedure accepted by almost all physicists both conventional and non-conventional. The problem of ball lightning is still unsolved. Since they do not tend to sink or rise, it is assumed that their density is about that of air. But with that being the case, the internal pressure should be very high because the temperature is very high and we assume that the pressure is proportional to the temperature times the density. So the question is what holds ball lightning together? Dr. Bass has fully answered this question when he demonstrated, with all the appropriate and correct mathematics, that the Madelung force holds them together. The problem here is that no scientist other than himself believes in this force. I have never heard any ball lightning investigator, even among the fringe types, credit Dr. Bass with a viable ball lightning theory. If there is a need for some new force or theory then the first step is to justify it through showing the consistency with other known theory and experimental evidence. This step is taken by almost all innovators. For example, the Graneaus and Dr. Mills have done this. Dr. Bass has skipped this step and as a result I believe all interested investigators, both traditional and non-traditional, will continue to ignore his results. I would expect that even the cf believers would object to Dr. Bass' theory. That is because he has to introduce an imaginary force, the Madelung force, in order to get it to work. If this force does not exist then cf does not work. So in reality, Dr. Bass is working in support of the cf skeptics. One just has to remove an imaginary force from his theory and the result, that cf does not work, is obtained. My prediction is that Dr. Bass' cf theory will achieve the same level of acceptance as his ball lightning theory. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 12:23:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10441; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:18:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:18:17 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:14:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Re: ZPE Priority: normal In-reply-to: <77533e5b.34ec5a49 aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <86B01C2AC2 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"OffnL2.0.vY2.6E9xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16110 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > <<3. That the ZPE does exist in huge quantities and can be > >extracted in huge quantities, and thus the very nature of the > >universe can be modified based on what we "mere mortals" do in the > >lab. As I said, this possibility doesn't seem too attractive. (to me > >anyway)>> > > Frank Znidarsic would probably say, "no problemo." Any ZPE turned into useful > positive energy would be accompanied by an equal amount of associated negative > gravitational energy, and so no net change in the universe would occur. > > Hal Puthoff But that is exactly the problem I have with this idea. It is assumed that the universe is either open or closed or in an exact balance between the two (based on how much energy there is in the universe). If you take a bunch of energy from the vacuum, you are changing the final destiny of the universe! This is the consequence of conservation of energy and you can't get around it (as you said). Take the energy from the vacuum and you force spacetime to be more curved (negative gravitational energy). Maybe it really is possible to get all this energy from the vacuum, but it just blows my mind that you can screw around with the universe like that! JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 13:00:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22774; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:53:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:53:02 -0800 Message-ID: <34EC9BAC.1FB interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:53:00 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: scanner = close-up camera References: <3.0.1.32.19980219133543.0073e954 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YcxK_.0.JZ5.ck9xq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16111 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > We got a Mustek 1200 III EP scanner and it serves nicely as a close-up > camera for relatively flat subjects. > Hey, that's cool, Scott! When you find the "bugs" in the BLP experiment, make a scan of those for us too, OK? :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 13:28:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA31458; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:18:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:18:59 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <23194f07.34eca191 aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:18:07 EST To: Puthoff aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, mica@world.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: zpe Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"rJxFY.0.Ch7._6Axq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16112 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 2/19/98 10:23:32 AM, mica world.std.com wrote: << Exactly, in clear English - if possible - what is "negative gravitational energy"?>> ..................................... Preprint posted at Electromagnum.. Later published in IE. The story of ZPE, gravity, and the universe. genesis-of-and-zero-point-energy at www.newph... Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 18:33:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00610; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:21:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:21:19 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980220091916.00761148 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:19:16 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Cold Fusion Technical Information available In-Reply-To: <19980210205223.10161.qmail hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3-3I9.0.M9.TYExq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16113 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Have received several inquiries about cf, so here are facts. Cold fusion is real. The world literature discussing the nuclear, metallurgical, and material science and engineering continues at a significant rate, although much of the literature is difficult to obtain in that the journals are not generally available in all libraries. Cold fusion is also consistent with conventional physics. More information is available at http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Dr. Mitchell Swartz (mica world.std.com) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 20:42:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07358; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:37:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:37:30 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34ED0879.1400 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:37:13 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"um_wL3.0.co1.6YGxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16114 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > > My prediction is that > Dr. Bass' cf theory will achieve the same level of > acceptance as his ball lightning theory. > Just to interject a bit of scientific criticism: I have read through and reviewed Bass's theory in detail. I don't have a strong objection to his use of Magdelung forces, which as I gather simply mean summing up the coulomb forces of all the elctrons and ions in the lattice. Of course, one could debate his precise model for the summation, which makes a few simlifying assumptions, but the general approach seesm valid. And there is no question that resonant barrier penetration is real and does have attainable resonant energies near a few eV, which are therefore not too large to be attained ions caught in the lattice. But, in a simple "magdelung force" theory these resonance energies are too narrowly defined to be attained, i.e. you must match the resonant energy to so many decimal places that the uncertianty principle dE dt > h says the energy cannot be so narrowly defined in a lattice that exists unidisturbed for a time of only sseconds, hours, days or years, even. The next step of Bass's argument is to get around the dE problem by saying the thermal motion of the lattice broadens the resonant energy bands to the point where they can be hit by the energies of the ions moving in the lattice. This argument is less rigorous than his basic model, but again does not seem beyond the realm of physical likelyhood. I.e., line broadening due to thermal fluctuations is real, and its not too much of a stretch to apply it here. So, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, as far as plasiblity goes. But, still, according to my calculations the fundamental penetration times themselves are just way to long, and Bass's theory at the time did not address it. I.e., I'll give him the beneift of the doubt as far as for deriving a reasonable set of resonant energies with his model, and showing ther uncertainty priciple does not preclude achieving these energies. But nowhere did he actually estimate the time it takes resoant penetration to occur, which is in fact a very very long time if the energy barriers are high and/or thick. My crude, back of the envelope times showed that you should definitely not hold your breath waiting for it to occur (like 10^50 seconds, or so....don't recall exactly). So, I challend his model mainly on the simple question of how long it takes the penetration to occur, ignoring the precise validity of his model, becasue I think that is the more major issue, and what really prevents on from observing resonant penetration. Now, in his defense, bass counters by saying that my estimate of barrier thickness is way too big (I assume the thickness of the barrier is on the order of the width of the single ion coulomb barrier at E above a few KeV or so, since we are talking penetration by ions of a few tens of eV), and claims that his effective magdelung potential in fact is much steeper than this basic coulomb potential---making a barrier so thin that the penetration time is short, even though the barrier is very high, around a few MeV. I don't believe this, but it was not evident when I reviewed his paper, and I have not had the oppurtunity to go back and check to make sure. So we have a disagreement to clear up. I suspect the source of this may be that his magdelung potential is thin at energies of a few MeV---but he is neglecting that it is still much thicker at energies of kEV, so that the ions cannot even penetrate this medium energy part of the barrier, and thus they never even get to the high energy part (that may indeed be thinner than the single atom coulomb barrier at high E). My present opinion---which I should verify by one more go round with the details of his model---is that he had never correctly computed the time of penetration, which is fundamentally and unavolidably long, precisely because penetration of wide, high energy barriers is slow, no matter how you cut it. Resonant penetration is not a free lucch---the particles can get through, but you have to wait forever. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 22:11:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16391; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:02:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:02:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34ED1CC5.337A gorge.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:03:49 -0800 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament References: <199802190804.AAA01270 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id WAA16367 Resent-Message-ID: <"RDNz22.0.004.knHxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16115 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So, the water all evaporates, but is then reabsorbed upon cooling? OK. What I find most interesting is that both kinds of fialments (W and Pt) seem to have the same response to hydrogen. Both filaments show a catastrophic failure, after about the same time in the H2 atmosphere. > At hour 7.5 we decided to try a higher H2 pressure: 10 torr. The increased H2 pressure allowed us to raise the filament power > considerably and still stay in the 1200° -1300° C "safe" range. We raised the filament power to 20 watts and lowered the > cartridge heater power correspondingly. These conditions persisted for 3.5 hours until hour 11, when the filament suddenly > melted open. During this period there also was no sign of excess heat…but there was a noticeable decline of the Pout trace DIFFERENCES: 1. Pressure was increased to 10 torr. 2. Filament resistance/ temperature was lower (necessarily--lower M.P.) for Pt. 3. Pt filament did not exhibit increasing resistance (hence temp.) over time before meltdown. Maybe, in the special case of this reactor vessel, filament resistance varies for other reasons than simply filament temperature, or filament diameter. Increasing the H2 pressure did not increase the resistance of the Pt filament, so, it was inferred that the temperature was not increased, so the power was increased. Is the increasing resistance of the W filament caused by the loss of W atoms? Or is it an increase in temperature, mimicking a narrowing of the filament? Whichever of the above, or both, why does the same process not occur in the Pt filament? Is it because the Pt doesn't enter into the same water cycle as does the W? Or is it that the filament temp was lower, so that the H2=H+H didn't occur? A "brown's gas hypothesis" would suggest that the temp was too low for the atomic hydrogen to form in significant amounts. It would suggest that a small portion of the Pt filament had more resistance than the remainder, (contamination, mechanical damage, ??) that this locus obtained a higher temp, sufficient to produce a few H atoms. the incandescent Pt immediately catalyzed these H atoms with available O2, at the hottest site. This would increase the local heat, which would produce more H atoms, more BG reactions, in a "runaway" cycle, until meltdown occurred. Any other ideas as to why Pt and W acted the same, but differently? Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 22:46:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24450; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:35:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:35:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34ED1648.168C earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:36:08 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: McKubre: Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues, tournament of replication References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <3 4E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EADEA7.1CF3@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1dFTm2.0.yz5.VGIxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16116 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: Re: Rothwell, Murray- ethica Date: 18 Feb 1998 16:25:37 U From: "Mike McKubre" To: rmforall earthlink.net CC: "Jed Rothwell" <72240.1256 CompuServe.com> RE>Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues,... 2/18/98 Rich - Since my name was mentioned explicitly, I will respond, and you may disseminate this response. First, a preamble and disclaimer. I have scanned the dialogue (or serial monologue) that you (Rich) have directed to me. You are to be commended for your tenacity and noble objective. The debate, however, seems to have foundered on issues considered and largely resolved in late 1989 and 1990 (so-called recombination, temperature gradients, corroding thermocouples, etc). Until the struggle moves forward (and the quickest way is for participants to read and understand the literature) I cannot justify the time to contribute to the debate in this forum. There are some points, however, which cannot go unchallenged: 1) You have invited me, and others, to submit our procedures to the scrutiny of EarthTech. While I have had little direct contact with Scott Little, and none with Hal Puthoff, I have tremendous respect for them both - Scott for his technical practicality and Hal for his imagination and genius. I could use their help but several factors prevent me from accepting your offer of their facilities: a) I am not free to disseminate the technology and know-how that we have developed at SRI; it belongs to the people who paid for it [mostly EPRI]. b) The calorimetry that we perform here operates in a purpose-designed laboratory, with total investment (hardware and manpower) of many millions of dollars. Hal and Scott do not have the resources, time or (I suspect) patience to attempt to replicate what we have done c) We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments. We have generated more null results and hours of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h) than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons. Nevertheless, the existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with our own hands. We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of all critical parameters. You should be skeptical, and remain so until we supply proof. d) I see little incremental benefit in achieving a positive result at EarthTech, and it would require a huge investment of my time, and theirs, with no guarantee of success. Until the effect can be replicated at will (whether it is real or a subtle artifact) we cannot make an experimental proof. 2) As was Jed Rothwell, I was appalled at the willful misconduct practiced by Hansen and, perhaps unwittingly, propagated by you, in respect of Mel Miles. Hansen knowingly transmitted confidential information; a clear breach of professional ethics. He also saw fit to annotate and publish a private letter from Miles to Jones. Why? Ostensibly to support a technical argument. This is out of line. Worse, it introduces to the debate a character so sullied that none who treasure their reputation, will willingly contribute. 3) Much has been made in your forum (well, a little has been made with much repetition) from the mischievous little paper of which Hansen is the lead author. This paper leads us down the following logical path [the comments in square brackets are my assessment of each step]: -Based on capable and careful calorimetry [true] -an error has been found which can manifest apparent excess heat [true] -which has not previously been recognized [false] -and is due to oxygen-hydrogen recombination [wrong]. -Although small [sub mW in Hansen...Jones' exquisitely sensitive calorimeter], the error may scale to explain excess heat in larger open cells [quantitatively wrong]. -Since an unrecognized [wrong] calorimetric error was found in one form of calorimeter, all "cold fusion" calorimetry may be in error [logically ridiculous]. I will not discuss this issue further, with anyone, until they can demonstrate that they have read and understood the paper by Fritz Will in JEAC which illuminates the electrochemically obvious mistakes and errors of logic in the Hansen...Jones paper. 4) It is stated, in the Hansen...Jones paper, that, as a result of their calorimetric findings, EPRI withdrew their funding support. I had thought this point laughable - EPRI is an honest and (occasionally) farsighted Institution employing contract managers of high integrity - but one of your correspondents picked up this point and accepted it as truth. I am not empowered to defend EPRI, but I am familiar with the circumstances. The reason stated by Hansen...Jones for EPRI not to provide them with further funding, is blatantly untrue. If a breach in ethics occurred, it was not on the part of EPRI or an EPRI Program Manager. Mike McKubre -------------------------------------- Date: 2/18/98 6:37 AM To: Mike McKubre From: rmforall earthlink.net Received: by QM with SMTP;18 Feb 1998 06:21:15 -0800 Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust122.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.122]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07194; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:11:03 -0800 (PST) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 19 23:30:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01974; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:25:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:25:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980220142437.006b4690 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:24:37 +0000 To: kirk.shanahan srs.gov From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Shanahan: final final response, re Carrell, re Arata Cc: Rich Murray , vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34ED1AB2.2F56 earthlink.net> References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9 earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6 earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1 earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8 earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0 earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506 earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276 earthlink.net> <34BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5 earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4 earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8 earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32 earthlink.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6 earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977 earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4 earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014 earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A earthlink.net> <34D3163E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260 earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43 earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46 earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02 earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4 earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88 earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206 earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3 earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6 earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227 earthlink.net> <34E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940 earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864 earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872 earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MKtFI.0.mU.O_Ixq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16117 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:54 PM 2/19/98 -0600, Kirk wrote: >The alpha phase is a low concentration, unordered solution of H(D) in >Pd. Once the H concentration starts to increase, H-H interactions >start to have influence, and an ordered beta phase starts to form. >This is just like ice forming in water, with the beta phase slowly >spreading out to encompass the whole sample. The H(D) goes into the >octahedral holes in the fcc structure, and a lattice swelling occurs, >but the basic fcc structure stays intact. Although the writeup is good, the analogy with water-ice should probably point to a better example. It is unlikely that water forming ice-1h is a good analogy for the following reasons. Very few hydrogen bonds are broken in the ice -> transition. This can be seen by taking the ratio 80 -------------------------- 80 + 100 + 560 + (.5*15) which indicates the fractional number of H-bonds broken when ice melts. The numerator is the heat of melting, and the denominator are the heats of melting, the heat to bring to 100C, and the heat of vaporization. The last number in the denominator refers to the surface of ice which does not total solidify to about -15C (and the fact that the specific heat is about 0.5 cal/gm-degC in that temp range). An alternate derivation compares the energy per H-bond which is 4.5 kc/mole, to kB*T. Whichever route, the stereoconstellation of Ice-1h remains in water to a great degree, with clusters, and other ordered structure, and filling of the c-axis channels. This fact can be discerned experimentally, as well, by various spectroscopies including neutron and dielectric. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 02:33:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09822; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:20:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:20:26 -0800 Message-Id: <34ECC6D4.4CAFBA85 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:57:08 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: JHS paper is updated on xxx.lanl.gov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yUjFo1.0.IP2.eZLxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16118 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: gr-qc/9612022 From: Modanese Giovanni Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:25:46 +0100 (MET) (77kb) Date (revised): Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:23:08 +0100 (MET) Date (revised): Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:28:32 GMT Date (revised): Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:31:43 GMT Possible quantum gravity effects in a charged Bose condensate under variable e.m. field Authors: G. Modanese, J. Schnurer Comments: 24 pages, LaTeX, 7 PostScript figures. Experimental and phenomenological Sections updated Report-no: UTF-391/96 Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 05:08:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25489; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 05:00:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 05:00:16 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980220130003.0069988c freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:00:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament Resent-Message-ID: <"YGBQp.0.BE6.WvNxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16119 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:28 PM 2/18/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >OK, sports fans, read all about Run 13 at: > >http://www.eden.com/~little/blp/run13.html > >The good news: Pt is not attacked by hydrogen. >The bad news: Still no excess heat. > >Thanks for all the insightful observations, suggestions, calculations, and >references. This is fun. It would be a LOT of fun if the experiment would >start producing excess heat! > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > You mention that there was a slight increase in pressure during the run which you did not know the cause of. Could this increase in pressure be explained by the production of H atoms? For the same volume at the same temperature and pressure, by increasing the total number of molecules and atoms the pressure should increase. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 06:27:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10646; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:22:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:22:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802201417.JAA06840 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Valone to DOE's Pena Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 09:22:13 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ra4nX.0.Ec2.q6Pxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16120 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FROM: Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com Votexians: My USPTO contact and subscriber to Infinite Energy, Tom Valone (of the Integrity Research Institute (IRI) in Washington, DC had a public exchange with US Dept. of Energy Secretary Pena on Feburary 19, 1998 at a public forum. This is his report (my only criticism is that he mentioned the discredited Stanly Meyer): Subject: DOE Testimony, 2/19/98 Sent: 2/19/98 7:24 PM Received: 2/20/98 8:34 AM From: Thomas.Valone USPTO.GOV To: Marc.Whitford USPTO.GOV CC: editor infinite-energy.com usa-tesla usa.net newenergy acad4newenergy.com iri erols.com nshuddleston juno.com I went to the DOE hearing today in DC and gave a 5 min. testimony requesting the establishment of an "Office of Emerging Technologies." I was surpised to see that the panel was headed by the DOE Secretary of Energy Frederico Pena so I was able to talk directly to him and also hand over a bunch of great patents with the IRI catalog and my ZPE paper. I described each of the Patterson cold fusion cell, Meyers hydrogen conversion for the automobile, Bell Labs nuclear battery lasting 25 years, Mead's zero point energy patent, and Correa's vacuum arc discharge. The assistants actually took a few notes as I called for Dr. Storms or Dr. Mallove to head the committee, council, or office. I repeated the fact that it has to be entitled "emerging technologies" to draw the inventors out and directed by someone not beholding to a bureaucratic organization. I even told them that the science has been called non-conventional energy, new energy, and free energy and then mentioned the two-hour documentary "Free Energy: The Race to Zero Point" which explains a lot of this new technology that is barely understood by mainstream physicists. Please send in the "Public Comment Form" at the web site below with similar suggestions and try to get others to do the same. You may also simply forward this email to anyone old enough to read and write! << :-) -Tom Valone http://www.eren.doe.gov/cnes/ From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 06:50:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14028; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:41:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:41:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:35:31 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: McKubre speaks. LISTEN UP! Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802200939_MC2-3415-D5EF compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"1rn-M1.0.6R3.UOPxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16121 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Dear All, Rich Murray posted the following message from Mike McKubre here, but Murray's formatting makes messages difficult to read. He has the line break set somewhere between characters 72 and 74; most messages come in lines up to 80 characters long, thanks to Herman Hollerith. It is best to set your line break at 79 characters. This is important, so I'd like to post it again in the original format (which McKubre copied to me). McKubre seldom writes or lectures. That is a shame because he is one of the best speakers I know in any field. He has a gift for explaining complex subjects understandably, without oversimplifying. He has encyclopedic knowledge of electrochemistry and the cold fusion literature. I would like to draw your attention to the following key points in his message: * The cold fusion debate has "foundered on issues considered and largely resolved in late 1989 and 1990." * It is essential for participants to read and understand the literature. This cannot be emphasized too much. Critiques by people like Hansen, Jones, Murray and Shanahan have no scientific merit. Every claim they make is incorrect or absurd. This is because they refuse to do their homework and *read the literature*. * Hansen is guilty of "willful misconduct" in "a clear breach of professional ethics." I do not want to overstate this. He has not broken any laws. The real harm he does is to the progress of science. Hansen and Jones aim to squelch discussion, hurt people's reputations, and frighten people away from this field. This is dirty politics. (Hansen's excuse for his behavior, published here, is hilarious. He says his claims are "common knowledge," and he does not have access to the personnel files, so he's off the hook. When you realize that someone passed you a counterfeit $100 bill, it is not okay to pass it on at the grocery store just because it didn't come off of your printing press. I don't care how many file clerks and professors at BYU trample professional ethics: they are all guilty.) * People like Scott Little cannot hope to replicate SRI style Pd - D2O CF because the experiments are too difficult, the equipment is too expensive, and it would take too long. As I have often said, it would be like trying to replicate a Pentium chip in your basement. On the other hand Ed Storms has, in fact, replicated Pd - D2O CF in his basement, and Ohmori is doing Au - H2O by himself. McKubre believes it takes millions of dollars. Looking at Storms and Ohmori I would say that experience and knowledge are more important, and can substitute for money to some extent. * The "mischievous little paper" by Hansen and Jones is quantitatively wrong and the conclusion it reaches is logically ridiculous. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: 19-Feb-98 02:43 EST From: "Mike McKubre" > INTERNET:Mike_McKubre qm.sri.com Subj: Re: Rothwell, Murray- ethical issues To: rmforall earthlink.net Cc: "Jed Rothwell" <72240.1256 CompuServe.com> RE> Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues,... 2/18/98 Rich - Since my name was mentioned explicitly, I will respond, and you may disseminate this response. First, a preamble and disclaimer. I have scanned the dialogue (or serial monologue) that you (Rich) have directed to me. You are to be commended for your tenacity and noble objective. The debate, however, seems to have foundered on issues considered and largely resolved in late 1989 and 1990 (so-called recombination, temperature gradients, corroding thermocouples, etc). Until the struggle moves forward (and the quickest way is for participants to read and understand the literature) I cannot justify the time to contribute to the debate in this forum. There are some points, however, which cannot go unchallenged: 1) You have invited me, and others, to submit our procedures to the scrutiny of EarthTech. While I have had little direct contact with Scott Little, and none with Hal Puthoff, I have tremendous respect for them both - Scott for his technical practicality and Hal for his imagination and genius. I could use their help but several factors prevent me from accepting your offer of their facilities: a) I am not free to disseminate the technology and know-how that we have developed at SRI; it belongs to the people who paid for it [mostly EPRI]. b) The calorimetry that we perform here operates in a purpose-designed laboratory, with total investment (hardware and manpower) of many millions of dollars. Hal and Scott do not have the resources, time or (I suspect) patience to attempt to replicate what we have done c) We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments. We have generated more null results and hours of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h) than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons. Nevertheless, the existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with our own hands. We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of all critical parameters. You should be skeptical, and remain so until we supply proof. d) I see little incremental benefit in achieving a positive result at EarthTech, and it would require a huge investment of my time, and theirs, with no guarantee of success. Until the effect can be replicated at will (whether it is real or a subtle artifact) we cannot make an experimental proof. 2) As was Jed Rothwell, I was appalled at the willful misconduct practiced by Hansen and, perhaps unwittingly, propagated by you, in respect of Mel Miles. Hansen knowingly transmitted confidential information; a clear breach of professional ethics. He also saw fit to annotate and publish a private letter from Miles to Jones. Why? Ostensibly to support a technical argument. This is out of line. Worse, it introduces to the debate a character so sullied that none who treasure their reputation, will willingly contribute. 3) Much has been made in your forum (well, a little has been made with much repetition) from the mischievous little paper of which Hansen is the lead author. This paper leads us down the following logical path [the comments in square brackets are my assessment of each step]: -Based on capable and careful calorimetry [true] -an error has been found which can manifest apparent excess heat [true] -which has not previously been recognized [false] -and is due to oxygen-hydrogen recombination [wrong]. -Although small [sub mW in Hansen...Jones' exquisitely sensitive calorimeter], the error may scale to explain excess heat in larger open cells [quantitatively wrong]. -Since an unrecognized [wrong] calorimetric error was found in one form of calorimeter, all "cold fusion" calorimetry may be in error [logically ridiculous]. I will not discuss this issue further, with anyone, until they can demonstrate that they have read and understood the paper by Fritz Will in JEAC which illuminates the electrochemically obvious mistakes and errors of logic in the Hansen...Jones paper. 4) It is stated, in the Hansen...Jones paper, that, as a result of their calorimetric findings, EPRI withdrew their funding support. I had thought this point laughable - EPRI is an honest and (occasionally) farsighted Institution employing contract managers of high integrity - but one of your correspondents picked up this point and accepted it as truth. I am not empowered to defend EPRI, but I am familiar with the circumstances. The reason stated by Hansen...Jones for EPRI not to provide them with further funding, is blatantly untrue. If a breach in ethics occurred, it was not on the part of EPRI or an EPRI Program Manager. Mike McKubre From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 07:42:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21849; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:34:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:34:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980220223359.006c8194 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:33:59 +0000 To: "VORTEX" From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF Cc: Barry Merriman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jbBlr2.0.FL5.HAQxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16122 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Three cheers to Barry Merriman for his scientific response below. Nice analysis and write up. It is a quite refreshing change after the blistering ad hominems posted extensively by Larry Wharton in Message-Id: <<"qn4hZ3.0.ba4.rQXwq" mx2>. Robert Bass' theory may be right or wrong, but it probably does not deserve Larry's ascientific attacks on him, and certainly not on vortex where it was agreed such venomous non-science is inappropriate. If more took the time like Barry, or Mike, to actually consider and work out the issues, much of the kneejerk criticism might well actually improve in quality. Mitchell ================================================== At 08:37 PM 2/19/98 -0800, you wrote: >Larry Wharton wrote: >> My prediction is that >> Dr. Bass' cf theory will achieve the same level of >> acceptance as his ball lightning theory. >> > >Just to interject a bit of scientific criticism: I have >read through and reviewed Bass's theory in detail. >I don't have a strong objection to his use of Magdelung >forces, which as I gather simply mean summing up the coulomb >forces of all the elctrons and ions in the lattice. Of >course, one could debate his precise model for the summation, >which makes a few simlifying assumptions, >but the general approach seesm valid. > .... zip to decrease bandwidth >My present opinion---which I should verify by one more go round >with the details of his model---is that he had never correctly >computed the time of penetration, which is fundamentally >and unavolidably long, precisely because penetration of >wide, high energy barriers is slow, no matter how you >cut it. Resonant penetration is not a free lucch---the particles >can get through, but you have to wait forever. > > > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 08:23:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27574; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:10:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:10:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980220100920.00aea888 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:09:20 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, "Mike McKubre" From: Scott Little Subject: McKubre's wisdom Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"xSD5Z.0.mk6.UhQxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16123 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ATTENTION CF BELIEVERS: Please READ & UNDERSTAND the following part of McKubre's wonderfully rational statement: > c) We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments. We have generated >more null results and hours of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h) >than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons. Nevertheless, the >existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to >them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with >our own hands. We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of all >critical parameters. You should be skeptical, and remain so until we supply >proof. There are two possible explanations for the situation described in the first two sentences: 1. They are attempting to observe a real phenomenon without adequate control over the critical parameters. 2. Their calorimeters have occasionally exhibited significant, persistent errors for presently unknown reasons. Based upon my own experiences, I feel that #2 is at least a possibility. Calorimetry excels above all other metrologies in providing a fertile medium for the spawning and nurturing of subtle and insidious systematic errors. However, I am also humbly aware of my own shortcomings. I stand in awe of the nearly incredible accomplishments that have been made by others in the field of calorimetry. I am sure that McKubre's calorimetry is MUCH closer to ideal than my own. Therefore I can only ask point-blank: Dr. McKubre, what probability would you assign to #2 above? He went on to say: > d) I see little incremental benefit in achieving a positive result at >EarthTech, and it would require a huge investment of my time, and theirs, with >no guarantee of success. Until the effect can be replicated at will (whether >it is real or a subtle artifact) we cannot make an experimental proof. I agree with this position entirely. At the present "hit rate" (a few positive runs out of every 100,000 hours of experimentation) we cannot afford to do fundamental research on the P&F effect. However, we can continue to serve as an independent confirmation of supposedly robust excess heat effects. I also agree with another of McKubre's points: Let's quit arguing over corroded thermocouples and the like. We can hash over old results until we're blue in the face and it gets us precisely NOWHERE. Instead, we should devote our energies to finding current experiments that are generating excess heat and to getting such experiments replicated in multiple labs around the world. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 08:35:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28460; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:11:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:11:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34ED9D8E.608 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:13:18 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Rothwell: McKubre: Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues, tournament of replication; Murray Ohmori critique References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> < 34E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EADEA7.1CF3@earthlink.net> <34ED1648.168C@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"K1R8q2.0.Wy6.ZiQxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16124 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Subject: McKubre speaks. LISTEN UP! Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:41:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:35:31 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Reply-To vortex-l eskimo.com To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex Dear All, Rich Murray posted the following message from Mike McKubre here, but Murray's formatting makes messages difficult to read. He has the line break set somewhere between characters 72 and 74; most messages come in lines up to 80 characters long, thanks to Herman Hollerith. It is best to set your line break at 79 characters. [Murray: In Netscape Navigator 3.0, how do I reset the line break for the copy {ctrl C} and paste {ctrl V} functions {Notepad} ?] This is important, so I'd like to post it again in the original format (which McKubre copied to me). McKubre seldom writes or lectures. That is a shame because he is one of the best speakers I know in any field. He has a gift for explaining complex subjects understandably, without oversimplifying. He has encyclopedic knowledge of electrochemistry and the cold fusion literature. I would like to draw your attention to the following key points in his message: * The cold fusion debate has "floundered on issues considered and largely resolved in late 1989 and 1990." * It is essential for participants to read and understand the literature. This cannot be emphasized too much. Critiques by people like Hansen, Jones, Murray and Shanahan have no scientific merit. Every claim they make is incorrect or absurd. [Murray: Rothwell has repeated this "every claim" many times. Does anyone agree?] This is because they refuse to do their homework and *read the literature*. * Hansen is guilty of "willful misconduct" in "a clear breach of professional ethics." I do not want to overstate this. He has not broken any laws. The real harm he does is to the progress of science. Hansen and Jones aim to squelch discussion, hurt people's reputations, and frighten people away from this field. [Murray: I think this is Rothwell's aim. Does anyone agree?] This is dirty politics. (Hansen's excuse for his behavior, published here, is hilarious. He says his claims are "common knowledge," and he does not have access to the personnel files, so he's off the hook. When you realize that someone passed you a counterfeit $100 bill, it is not okay to pass it on at the grocery store just because it didn't come off of your printing press. I don't care how many file clerks and professors at BYU trample professional ethics: they are all guilty.) * People like Scott Little cannot hope to replicate SRI style Pd - D2O CF because the experiments are too difficult, the equipment is too expensive, and it would take too long. As I have often said, it would be like trying to replicate a Pentium chip in your basement. On the other hand Ed Storms has, in fact, replicated Pd - D2O CF in his basement, and Ohmori is doing Au - H2O by himself. [Murray: Ohmori's experiment seems very simple. He makes no claims that special materials or delicate adjustments are needed, and seems to claim that his experiment is highly repeatable. His SEM photos of microscopic lily volcano foam structures have been published since fall, 1996, along with his claim of transmutation products. Certainly, this experiment deserves independent repliction. Has anyone tried? However, see below for my critique of a recent paper by Ohmori, Mizuno, and Enyo.] McKubre believes it takes millions of dollars. Looking at Storms and Ohmori I would say that experience and knowledge are more important, and can substitute for money to some extent. * The "mischievous little paper" by Hansen and Jones is quantitatively wrong and the conclusion it reaches is logically ridiculous. - Jed [Rich Murray] October 19, 1997 Dear all, A number of remarkable electrolytic transmutation reports have been given by a group of researchers at Hokkaido University. I will examine these by focussing on a recent work by T Ohmori, M Enyo, T. Mizuno, Y Nodasaka, and H Minagawa, "Transmutation in the Electrolysis of Light Water-- Excess Energy and Iron Production in a Gold Electrode," Fusion Technology, March, 1997, 31, p. 210-218. It derives from earlier work, T Ohmori and M Enyo, "Excess Heat Evolution During Electrolysis of H2O With Nickel, Gold, Silver, and Tin Cathodes," Fusion Technology, Nov., 1993, 24, p. 293-295. I will call these "Transmutation" and "Excess". I spent some days picking over "Excess" in November, 1995, five years ago, finding so many flaws that I left a message on Ed Storms' answering machine suggesting that it might be a deliberate hoax. Even the abstract has a typo, confusing K2CO3 as K2SO4. Apparent excess heats were claimed from 0.2 to 26%. No attempts were made to determine the loading, if any, in the unusual cathode metals. With a low current density of 8.3 to 25 mA/cm2, the runs fall into the range thoroughly debunked by Zvi Shkedi et al, Bose Corp., "Calorimetry, Excess Heat, and Farady Efficiency in Ni-H2O Electrolytic Cells, Fusion Technology, Nov., 1995, 28, p. 1720-31. They did not even bother to cite "Excess" in their 15 references. Shkedi ran four light-water Ni cells at 180 to 600 mA for up to 4 days a run with an average power accuracy of 0.6 mW. All released H2 and O2 were carefully recombined and returned to the cells. Assuming 100 % Faraday efficiency, as did most studies of this reaction, he found apparent excess power of 15 to 37 %, reduced to zero when the actual recombination efficiency was factored in. Shkedi also ran, but did not describe in detail, 154 palladium D2O cells, with the same null results. Confirming was a report by JE Jones et all at Brigham Young U., "Faradaic Efficiencies Less Than 100 % during Electrolysis of Water Can Account for Reports of Excess Heat in "Cold Fusion" Cells," J. Physical Chem., 1995, 99, p. 6973-79. They also did not cite "Excess" in their 20 references. They used low current densities of 1-2 mA/cm2. "Excess", as did other similar studies, seemed to find more excess heat with K2CO3 than with Na2CO3. Jones wrote on page 6978: "In agreement with a recent report (20) showing that different electrolytes produce differing bubble sizes in aqueous solution, our experiments show that the difference between NaCO3 and K2CO3 as electrolytes probably is due to differences in interfacial properties of the solutions at the electrodes. The H2 bubbles were smaller when K2CO3 was the electrolyte than when Na2CO3 was the electrolyte in the same cell. Smaller bubbles allow better mobility of gases in the electrolyte and contact between the electrolyte and the electrode surface, thus allowing more frequent reaction of dissolved gases. When detergent was aded to the Na2CO3 electrolyte, the bubbles became much smaller, did not adhere to the electrode, and resulted in about the same rate of apparent excess heat as was observed with the K2CO3 electrolyte." This shows how subtle and unexpected the artifacts can be in these deceptively simple experiments. "Transmutation", submitted Jan. 29,1996, blindly builds on this sandy foundation. Five fused quartz (SiO2) cells were run a week at 1 A between Pt mesh anode and Au cathodes, 5 or 10 cm2 area, with Na2So4, K2CO3, KOH, K2SO4, or H2SO4 electrolytes, a current density of 100-200 mA/cm2. Page 211, "The counter electrode was a 1 X 7 cm 80-mesh platinum net...The working and the counter electrodes were placed at the bottom of the cell to minimize the temperature gradient in the electrolyte solution by vigorously stirring with H2 and O2 bubbles evolved from these electrodes." Hardly a more ideal set-up for promoting recombination and reducing Faradaic efficiency could hardly be devised. Of course, they found apparent excess heats of 4 to 22%. Page 212, "Measurement of the current efficiency was made repeatedly at a given time during the electrolysis, the result of which was 100.6, 100.1, and 101.1%. This fact shows that there is no conceivable possibility of the recombination of H2 and O2 as another cause of the excess energy production." Interestingly, they found about the same results for Na2SO4 and K2CO3, I suppose, because of the "vigorously stirring". More exciting, they found, (abstract) "In every case, a notable amount of iron atoms in the range of 1.0 X 10exp16 to 1.8 X 10exp17 atom/cm2 (true area) are detected together with the generation of a certain amount of excess energy evolution." AES was with 3.0 keV electron beam energy at 2.5 A current. One of the 12 runs with Na2SO4 was graphed twice, showing one O, two Pt, and three Fe peaks. They estimated Fe atoms occupied 44% of the top surface, about 100 Au layers, exposed by 5 minutes of Ar+ ion bombardment time. An EPMA image, scale not given, shows the Fe was distributed uniformly over the entire electrode. They estimated the Fe on this electrode was ~17 micrograms. On page 214, "Figure 8 shows the relationship between the total amount of iron atoms and the mean Rex [excess heat] obtained in every electrode/electrolyte system. Although the data were rather scattered, there seemed to be a linear relationship between these two parameters. This strongly supports the notion that iron atom production is related to excess energy evolution." This seems to me a good case of attempting to extract correlations from random fluctuations. One of the highest heat values has one of the lowest values of Fe atoms. The straight lines drawn through the points seem very arbitrary, and for the cathode areas 5 and 10 cm2, are given the same slope, although the input energy density is obviously half for the larger area, implying half the slope. Moreover, so much is left undone. Why not a simple chemical extraction and assey to determine the exact microgram amounts of Fe on each gold plate? Why not introduce controlled trace amounts of Fe into the electrolyte to study deposition patterns and the accuracy of the measurements? What is the precision and sensitivity of AES in this setting? What might be the estimated errors of all the numbers claimed? Why not collect evolved H2 and O2 and recombine them to settle the Faradaic efficiency issue? Now, we come to the Holy Grail of cold fusion transmutation research-- isotopic anomaly-- put in the singular, since only Fe-57, normally 2.1% is the most substantial claim, 14.5%, seemingly a 7-fold increase. The usual ratio of Fe-57 to Fe-56 is 0.023 . SIMS is used with a 12 keV, 100 nA O2+ primary beam. Page 214, "The SIMS measurement was made with an electrode after the electrolysis in the Na2So4 solution...spectra of Na+, Al+, Si+, K+, Ca+, Ti+, and Cr+...Fe+. This is probably due to the high sensitivity of SIMS for these elements. The spectrum of Cs+ is attributed to a trace of cesium that remained in the vacuum chamber itself." So, it is not clear if this data refers to the same electrode studied by AES. It is not said whether SIMS was done on other plates, and whether any such data was comparable. Also, we know from the EPMA image that the Fe distribution is in tiny spots. Since SIMS operates by vaporizing micron size areas, it is crucial to know how many spots were studied, how they were selected, and how varied were the resulting data sets, 1 to 200 amu. So, clearly, we are being served a generous portion of data stew. Page 216, "The isotopic content of magnesium, silicon, potassium, calcium, titanium, chromium, and iron...Table 3...As one can see, the isotopic contents of the elements other than iron are in agreement with these natural isotopic abundances within the limits of error. Therefore, these elements can be regarded as the impurities accumulated from the electrolyte solution." Well, in that case, why doesn't the Fe have the same source? They argue that the Fe produced is "at least one to two orders of magnitude" greater than all Fe sources in the solution and the electrodes. However, this production data is highly suspect, based on estimates from AES data, not based on direct chemical extraction and physical weighing, not checked by adding controlled Fe sources to the electrolyte, not qualified by error estimates, and with no pre-run SIMS scan of the cathode. Furthermore, a huge source of impurities, including Fe, is totally ignored, the SiO2 cells in which electrolysis operates for a week. Jed Rothwell in Infinite Energy #11, Nov-Dec., 1996, in a long, detailed review of McKubre's EPRI Final Report, page 64, in the box "Fifty Sigma Results" quotes McKubre's EPRI Perspective, "The conditions in the successful cells were not entirely under experimental control because the closed cells slowly leach silica and other materials from the anode and the cathode and its supports as well as from the cell walls..," and, from the box, "Overkill Example," "Other solid parts are Al2O3, SiO2, and PTFE [Teflon], which are considered in this analysis to be nonreactive." Nonreactive? So, indeed, in "Transmutations", the actual Fe present can readily be accounted for by obvious impurity sources. In a feeble way, the issue is mentioned, page 215, "The content of the particles with mass number 54 is also increased to some extent-- perhaps because of the mixing of Cr-54." Table III has a footnote about Ni-58 in Fe-58. The argument is pressed that the ratios of FeO for mass 73 and 72 confirm the ratio of mass 57 and 56, in Fig 11. "Although the plots are scattered, these two ratios can be seen on the whole to be in agreement. Therefore...not due to FeH+ formation. From this fact, one may safely say that "heavy iron" was produced and that its production was the result of some nuclear transmutation ocurring by the light water electrolysis." Whew! We just barely got by that one! Now, "Transmutations" does contain a veritable pot of data stew, Fig. 9, the entire SIMS spectrum of the uppermost layers of the gold after electrolysis in the Na2SO4 solution. Suitably doubled by zerox, it is a wonderful sight, a Himalayan vista, the main reason I selected this work for study. Prominent peaks, with notes: Na-23 100,000 intensity counts. Cs-133 10,000 (Ni-58)2OH? (SiO)3H? The Cincinatti Group's four ICP/MS scans by Robert Liversage offer no clues. >1,000 counts Al, Si, K, Ca, Ti, Cr, Fe-56, TiO. Could Fe-56 be (Si-28)2 or CaO? >100 counts Mg, "Fe-57", FeO, ZrO (106), Au, some others. Could Fe-57 be (Si-28)2H or CaOH? ~50 counts O2, Zr-90, Rh, In, Br, Kr, Pd, Xe, Gd ?? Why isn't there more S-32 from the Na2SO4? Given all the possibilites for diatomic molecules, hydrides, nitrides, and oxides, there is plenty of room to prove just about anything. That's why data stew is so seductively tasty. Hey, experts, since we have O2, why not Si2? That'd explain away a lot of Fe! "Transmutation" establishes to my mind the amount of attention we should pay to the other recent papers by this team on transmutation. In the Cincinnati Group's ICP/MS data, Infinite Energy #13-14, we can sip some more data stew. In the four scans, we find the computer program in the first two scans assigns to mass 57 in large part 5,052 counts and then in small part 24,390 counts as ArOH, while in the last two runs, it gives mass 57 as in huge part an unknown with 2,882,095 counts and then also in huge part 446 counts. Ar is very plentiful, since it is the carrier gas in the apparatus. Should we not leap at this as more proof of the transmutation production of Fe-57? Clearly, the computer data analysis program is overwhelmed even by the simplest scan, #1 the unprocessed reagent blank, listing large unknown counts for these masses: 30 2,216,930 35 288,002 42 45,836 74 43,215 238 738,673 I spent hours today fooling around with all that data, getting nowhere, and that itself is the significant result. George Miley's famous report, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," 1996, has a "Typical low resultion SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers in the cell)," which after doubling via zerox, indicates a ratio of mass 57 to 56 of about 200 to 3,000, about .075, far more than the original 0.023. R Bush and R Eagleton, "Evidence for Electrolytically Induced Transmutation and Radioactivity Correlated with Excess Heat in Electrolytic Cells with Light Water Rubidium Salt Electrolytes," Trans. Fusion Technology, Dec., 1994, 26, p. 344-54, has a more adaquate pyrex closed cell with an internal platinum black recombiner, at 1.0 mA/cm2, but gives no data about the run history, except to say that the total excess heat for Cell 53 is (4.0 +- 0.8) X 10exp19 MeV. He does give four SIMS graphs: for mass 57 vs 56 we, after the obligatory doubling of the graphs via zerox, find pre-run values, about 60,000 to 300,000, ratio .2, and post-run, 200 to 6,000, ratio .03. So, the pre-run ratio is many times more anomalous than the post-run. Now, that's efficient research! No need to even run the electrolysis! This is a much more significant result than the claimed transmutation of rubidium to strontium, eh? This proves that it is essential to publish pre-run SIMS data. In my surveys, I have not noticed any evidence as to the actual loading achieved in nickel or gold. But nor have I found any claims that null results are due to using inferior sources of nickel. The experiments are simple. No secret recipes are invoked. Yet, there are no independent replications, and it's getting to be years. So, at this point, after all this hassle, there seems to me to be no convincing evidence that low energy nuclear transmutations exist. Wayne Green's Elemental Energy (Cold Fusion) # 23, Sept., 1997, has an abstract by Prof. Hiroshi Yamada, Dept. Electrical Engineering, Iwate U., Morioka 020, Japan: "Products on Gold-plate Cathode in Water Electrolysis System (poster presentation) In an Au/H2O electrolysis system with an Na2SO4 solution, the electrolysis was carried out for 16-40 days with a current density of 0.5 A/cm2. The elements on the gold-pate cathode were identified by means of secondary ion mass spectrometry and X-ray photo-electron spectroscopy. A large amount of carbon and iron were observed to have been deposited on the gold-plate." Any takers? Rich Murray rmforall earthlink.net Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 08:49:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02424; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:35:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:35:30 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34ED0879.1400 math.ucla.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:33:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: Bass: reexplains QM theory of CF Resent-Message-ID: <"4O5NE1.0.ob.E3Rxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16125 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It is good to see some support some support for Bob Bass' Magdelung forces work coming from Barry Merriman: > >Just to interject a bit of scientific criticism: I have >read through and reviewed Bass's theory in detail. >I don't have a strong objection to his use of Magdelung >forces, which as I gather simply mean summing up the coulomb >forces of all the elctrons and ions in the lattice. Of >course, one could debate his precise model for the summation, >which makes a few simlifying assumptions, >but the general approach seesm valid. > I would suggest that Barry, a hot fusion person, look over Dr. Bass' previous work in the hot fusion field. Sure he claims that his Magdelung forces come from summing up the coulomb forces but that is just his claim. There is no acceptable justification of the force and the effects of this force are totally preposterous. First of all, standard plasma physics already properly includes the coulomb force and there is no need for an additional Magdelung force. Secondly, this force provides all the necessary force for the self confinement of a plasma. This is a totally ridiculous concept. While normal hot fusion work involves some confinement mechanism, like magnetic or inertial confinement, the Bob Bass hot fusion concept involves no confinement technique. His plasma just holds itself together through the Magdelung force. So the plasma just sits there in a stable configuration (therefore no inertial confinement) with no external forces to hold it together whatsoever. Now the plasma is electrically neutral but still there is an electric force that holds it together. This violates the virial theorem as well as basic common sense. So if Barry believes in this, it seems to me that he should become an advocate of this new and innovative confinement technique. We don't need that big, expensive and cumbersome magnetic confinement, nor do we need the transient and ineffective inertial confinement. Instead we can use the Magdelung force self confinement. There are no big magnets, no lasers, and no anything except a ball of plasma and the Magdelung force to hold it together. It amazes me that Dr. Bass includes "inventor of the Pyrosphere" in his e-mail signature. Not only is he admitting to this nonsense but he seems proud of it. Maybe Dr. Bass will do better with his Magdelung forces in a solid lattice. I don't know how one would apply the virial theorem to a solid, so that cannot be held against him. And the coulomb force in solid state theory is not as well treated as in plasma theory. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 09:30:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07408; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:12:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:12:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EDABA9.6071 earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:13:29 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, vortex-L@eskimo.com, koonin@caltech.edu, dg cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke@aa.net, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki. ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, bhorst@loc1.tandem.com, wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, shkedi@bose.com, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall ix.netcom.com, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, schultr ashur.cc.biu.ac.il, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: Hansen: McKubre: Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E27F36.156 earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EADEA7.1CF3@earthlink.net> <34ED1648.168C@earthlink.net> <34ED9D8E.608@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8w0Vx1.0.Zp1.qbRxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16126 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: McKubre: Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues, tournament of replication -Reply Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:58:47 -0700 From: Lee HANSEN To: rmforall earthlink.net [There are some items in this message that I cannot leave unchallenged because they are incorrect. Lee Hansen] >>> Rich Murray 02/19/98 10:36pm >>> Subject: Re: Rothwell, Murray- ethica Date: 18 Feb 1998 16:25:37 U From: "Mike McKubre" To: rmforall earthlink.net CC: "Jed Rothwell" <72240.1256 CompuServe.com> RE>Rothwell, Murray: ethical issues,... 2/18/98 Mike McKubre: Rich - Since my name was mentioned explicitly, I will respond, and you may disseminate this response. First, a preamble and disclaimer. I have scanned the dialogue (or serial monologue) that you (Rich) have directed to me. You are to be commended for your tenacity and noble objective. The debate, however, seems to have floundered on issues considered and largely resolved in late 1989 and 1990 (so-called recombination, temperature gradients, corroding thermocouples, etc). Until the struggle moves forward (and the quickest way is for participants to read and understand the literature) I cannot justify the time to contribute to the debate in this forum. There are some points, however, which cannot go unchallenged: 1) You have invited me, and others, to submit our procedures to the scrutiny of EarthTech. While I have had little direct contact with Scott Little, and none with Hal Puthoff, I have tremendous respect for them both - Scott for his technical practicality and Hal for his imagination and genius. I could use their help but several factors prevent me from accepting your offer of their facilities: a) I am not free to disseminate the technology and know-how that we have developed at SRI; it belongs to the people who paid for it [mostly EPRI]. b) The calorimetry that we perform here operates in a purpose-designed laboratory, with total investment (hardware and manpower) of many millions of dollars. Hal and Scott do not have the resources, time or (I suspect) patience to attempt to replicate what we have done c) We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments. We have generated more null results and hours of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h) than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons. Nevertheless, the existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with our own hands. We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of all critical parameters. You should be skeptical, and remain so until we supply proof. d) I see little incremental benefit in achieving a positive result at EarthTech, and it would require a huge investment of my time, and theirs, with no guarantee of success. Until the effect can be replicated at will (whether it is real or a subtle artifact) we cannot make an experimental proof. 2) As was Jed Rothwell, I was appalled at the willful misconduct practiced by Hansen and, perhaps unwittingly, propagated by you, in respect of Mel Miles. Hansen knowingly transmitted confidential information; a clear breach of professional ethics. He also saw fit to annotate and publish a private letter from Miles to Jones. Why? Ostensibly to support a technical argument. This is out of line. Worse, it introduces to the debate a character so sullied that none who treasure their reputation, will willingly contribute. [To call what I did "willful misconduct" demonstrates a willingness to make judgments without having all the information. I did not "transmit any confidential information" since I had no confidential information. The information was public knowledge. The letter from Miles was also public information. Miles submitted it to Vortex.] 3) Much has been made in your forum (well, a little has been made with much repetition) from the mischievous little paper of which Hansen is the lead author. This paper leads us down the following logical path [The comments in square brackets are my assessment of each step]: -Based on capable and careful calorimetry [true] -an error has been found which can manifest apparent excess heat [true] -which has not previously been recognized [false] [If it was so generally well-known previously, why were there no previous reports in the literature? Why were reports of "excess heat" due to recombination still being published at the time?] -and is due to oxygen-hydrogen recombination [wrong] [Calling this statement wrong is pure semantics. The mechanism is otherwise, but the result is the same]. -Although small [sub mW in Hansen...Jones' exquisitely sensitive calorimeter], the error may scale to explain excess heat in larger open cells [quantitatively wrong]. [I agree that conclusion has since been shown to probably be wrong.] -Since an unrecognized [wrong] calorimetric error was found in one form of calorimeter, all "cold fusion" calorimetry may be in error [logically ridiculous]. [That is not what was said in the article.] I will not discuss this issue further, with anyone, until they can demonstrate that they have read and understood the paper by Fritz Will in JEAC [I have read it an understood it.] which illuminates the electrochemically obvious mistakes and errors of logic in the Hansen...Jones paper.[The JEAC paper is completely based on the data we published. How can it therefore "illuminate the mistakes and errors in our work?] 4) It is stated, in the Hansen...Jones paper, that, as a result of their calorimetric findings, EPRI withdrew their funding support.[That is exactly what happened. We stand by what we published.] I had thought this point laughable - EPRI is an honest and (occasionally) farsighted institution employing contract managers of high integrity - but one of your correspondents picked up this point and accepted it as truth. I am not empowered to defend EPRI, but I am familiar with the circumstances. The reason stated by Hansen...Jones for EPRI not to provide them with further funding, is blatantly untrue. [I am getting very tired of being called a liar by people who do not have any basis to do so, and then being preached to about ethics.] If a breach in ethics occurred, it was not on the part of EPRI or an EPRI Program Manager. [We never said there was a breach in ethics on the part of EPRI.] Mike McKubre -------------------------------------- Date: 2/18/98 6:37 AM To: Mike McKubre From: rmforall earthlink.net Received: by QM with SMTP;18 Feb 1998 06:21:15 -0800 Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust122.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.122]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA07194; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:11:03 -0800 (PST) [I must say I am very disappointed that you would accept Rothwell's conclusions as fact. I think it shows a clear bias on your part, both personally and in your science.] Lee Hansen From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 10:05:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16319; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:56:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:56:58 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Watlow Home Page . BLP Experiments? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:52:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3e28$5a02f880$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD3DED.ADA42080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"OZolY1.0.o-3.dFSxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16128 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD3DED.ADA42080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Watlow also makes high temperature refractory heater units on special order. http://www.watlow.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD3DED.ADA42080 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Watlow Home Page.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Watlow Home Page.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.watlow.com/ Modified=A03F6A0E283EBD017B ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BD3DED.ADA42080-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 10:14:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16257; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:56:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:56:49 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Conax of Buffalo -- www.conaxbuffalo.com --. BLP Experiments? Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:53:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3e28$7ba0ed80$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3DED.CF421580" Resent-Message-ID: <"fGruG1.0.nz3.UFSxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16127 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3DED.CF421580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Conax is equipped to provide tungsten heaters packed in MgO and sheathed in various materials. Catalog available on request. A 20 watt heater capable of 2500 K is availble by special order. http://www.conaxbuffalo.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3DED.CF421580 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Conax of Buffalo -- www.conaxbuffalo.com --.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Conax of Buffalo -- www.conaxbuffalo.com --.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.conaxbuffalo.com/ Modified=80CD074F273EBD01C6 ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BD3DED.CF421580-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 10:38:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23869; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:31:50 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Off Topic. Nike Radar Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:28:35 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3e2d$5aca4de0$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"xKbNl3.0.rq5.KmSxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16129 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: While on temporary assignment at a defense Radar site Feb-March 1957. A Craft flying at 70,000 ft or more was spotted. The radar had a range of several hundred miles and the Height-Finder could look up to 100,000 feet or more. Yes, Scott there was a Hydrogen Thyratron used that was about 4" diameter and 24" high. :-) It was quite some time before Powers' U2 was shot down over Russia, and we found out what that "UFO" was. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 10:52:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22439; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:40:58 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: BLP Run 13 (KOH Vapor Pressure) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:04:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3d36$ee934880$LocalHost default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"h4vzX1.0.XU5.uuSxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16130 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mp.(K) Vapor Pressure Microns Hg vs T deg K 1000 10000 40000 10000 MW KOH 633 992 1136 1249 1337 56 NaOH 592 1012 1170 1290 1384 40 KNO2 713 ? 85 KNO3 607 ? 101 NaNO2 544 ? 53 NaNO3 580 ? 85 All that is needed is the V.P. at 0.1 - 1000 microns. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 11:21:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA30971; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:10:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:10:11 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Refractory -Sheathed Heaters for the BLP Experiments. Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:06:58 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3e32$b7ed21a0$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"-sxaO.0.oZ7.GKTxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16131 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I for one would gladly ante up $50.00 toward the cost of refractory sheathed "cartridge" heaters for the BLP experiments that Scott is running. The platinum sheaths on a MgO-packed tungsten heater could get a bit expensive. The other choices such as Tantalum, Molybdenum or Tungsten shouldn't be as costly. 20-30 watts spread over the surface of a 1/8-3/16" O.D. sheathed heater with about 2" heated length wouldn't be too bad. The threaded LAVA compression feedthru's that will screw into the conflat flange would help things also. Like the Govt,you give'em a few bucks then you can tell them how to do it, Right? :-) What say you, Scott? Others? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 11:28:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28216; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:12:10 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:12:10 -0800 (PST) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980218122825.00aee2c8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:10:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament Resent-Message-ID: <"2DAKs3.0.ou6.3MTxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16132 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Pt filament doesn't reach a very high temperature, from the point of view of decomposing H2 molecules. I couldn't find a reliable value for the Pt work function. It might or might not be high enough to decompose H2 gas molecules by a hot Pt surface. I suggest you consider biasing the Pt filament negatively about 10 volts. This would extract some electrons with enough energy to break up H2. It might be a way to get some (or more) atomic H in your chamber. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 12:40:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10559; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:26:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:26:22 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:21:02 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3e3d$10c4c4e0$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"rG1Xn2.0.ua2.fRUxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16133 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Schaffer gav.gat.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 4:21 AM Subject: Re: Run 13 - Pt filament >The Pt filament doesn't reach a very high temperature, from the point of >view of decomposing H2 molecules. I couldn't find a reliable value for the >Pt work function. It might or might not be high enough to decompose H2 gas >molecules by a hot Pt surface. > >I suggest you consider biasing the Pt filament negatively about 10 volts. >This would extract some electrons with enough energy to break up H2. It >might be a way to get some (or more) atomic H in your chamber. Back-of-the-envelope: Jo = R*T^2*exp (ew/kT) amperes/m^2 at T (K) Electron work function w Ta Mo W Pt Ni (mp. 1725 K) 4.1 4.2 4.52 5.32 5.0 R (amp/m^2-K^2)*1.0E-6 0.5 0.55 0.6 0.32 0.45 Very Roughly; 6.0E-11 amperes/cm^ for Pt at 1500 K and 9.0E-9 amperes/cm^2 for Ni at 1500 K. Regards, Frederick > >Michael J. Schaffer >General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA >Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 12:48:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12576; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:39:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:39:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EDE9D4.77E4 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:38:44 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Refractory -Sheathed Heaters for the BLP Experiments. References: <01bd3e32$b7ed21a0$1b8cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tZuqc3.0.J43.LeUxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16134 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > (snip Fred's blatant plan to gain complete control of Scott's BLP experiment) I may be stupid (I know that because my wife calls me that all the time.) but as the electrons fall into the lower states (BLP), shouldn't you see X-ray emission? I probably missed the details of this along with 99.99... percent of other human knowledge. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 13:04:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21617; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:56:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:56:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:50:39 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: Scott Little , vortex Subject: Indirectly heated. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"9tNKH2.0.hH5.ztUxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16135 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: An indirectly heated cathode might work very well. The cathode can then be biased to try to do the hydrogen thing. Maybe this is part of the art. Example; Tungsten in whatever.... with the whatever being electrically connected outside of chamber. Tungsten is electrically floating ... Tung and 'what' are close to electrical ground and some part of the set up can then be positive to the required amount. Or RF could be used. Also: If the idea is to heat stuff up, then why not just establish arc in chamber, and keep excitation and heat that way? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 13:13:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17494; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:05:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:05:32 -0800 (PST) From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-L" Subject: Re: Refractory -Sheathed Heaters for the BLP Experiments. Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:03:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3e42$f9f3a5a0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"_rxql3.0.FH4.M0Vxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16137 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick Sparber wrote: >The platinum sheaths on a MgO-packed tungsten heater could get a bit >expensive. The other choices such as Tantalum, Molybdenum or Tungsten >shouldn't be as costly. > >20-30 watts spread over the surface of a 1/8-3/16" O.D. sheathed heater with >about 2" heated length wouldn't be too bad. The threaded LAVA >compression feedthru's that will screw into the conflat flange would help >things also. > >What say you, Scott? Others? > Seems like an interesting idea, the tungsten would be the same material as BLP but with enough bulk to survive the H. Seems to me that with the increased surface area the power input to achieve high enough surface temperatures might be excessive. Got any spare envelope backs Frederick ? George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 13:23:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16960; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:02:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:02:42 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Mike Carrell" To: "Rich Murray" , , Subject: Re: Re[2]: A final response Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:44:31 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980220205932892.AAA259 default> Resent-Message-ID: <"sz4u21.0.Z84.azUxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16136 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kirk has made a very useful response and I have few increasingly trivial comments to round out the discussion. > Mike Carrell has spotted two errors on my part, a) not spotting the > 'DS-vessel' notation on Fig. 6(B) in the '94 paper, and b) using a 15 > hr incubation time when I had just assumed the true time axis was in > minutes. He is correct on both counts. Thank you. > Recalling that this is all sort of a 'tempest-in-a-teapot' type of > discussion anyway since the spillover mechanism details don't seem to > be crucial to the CF arguments , I still find myself in the state > where I bang my head against the wall and pull out what little of my > hair is left. Why? Because now almost nothing makes any sense. > For those brave of heart I will explain... I like to think of our discussion as a Vortex in a teapot. I don't have much hair to lose at my stage of life. > Since the time axis of Figure 7 is hours, the rate of pressure rise > would then be 7 atm in 21 hours (as opposed to minutes)(=1/3 atm/hr). > A 15 hour incubation period implies that a pressure of 5 atm would > have developed in the empty cathode. That only requires about 66 > mgrams Pd at D/Pd = .65 to completely absorb it (assuming the 1cc > volume). That represents an unreasonably small amount of Pd for the > total cathode contents (in fact, it is 2.2% of a nominal 3 gram > sample). So what 'happened' to the 3 or 5 gram sample? Here is our mutual frustration with the 1997 HTS report. The dots aren't necessarily connected and Figs 7 & 9 seem to belong to different experiments that Fig 8. So the 3 and 5 gram loadings may not apply. Previously, I had conjectured that D+ could simply diffuse through the capsule walls in a alpha phase, which Kirk describes as an unordered solution -- and to follow the metaphor -- drains into a sink in the cavity without necessarily reaching beta phase in the solid capsule. > Now I make an interesting observation. Mike has calculated that the > total cathode weight is about 170 grams of Pd. To load the whole > cathode to the point where its equilibrium pressure would reach 1 atm > (say D/Pd=.65 for argument) would take .65*(170/106.4)= 1.04 moles of > D, which we can round to 1 mole of D. This D has to be produced by > electrolysis, and the simplest way is to use the half-reaction: D2O + > e- -> D(ads) + OH- , which F&P used in their original '89 publication. > The point is that to get 1 mole of D you need 1 mole of electrons to > have flowed and reacted. Note above, the whole capsule does not have to load to beta phase for the loading of the Pd-black to commence. > Yet, the pressure rise in the empty cathode begins almost immediately > as shown in Figure 7 of the '97 paper. I think this is a plotting error. > In the '94(E) paper, Figure > 6(A) shows schematically what happens for the DS-cathode (6(B) is the > one for the stainless steel vessel), and 6(A) shows an incubation time > of about 30 minutes. The text also make clear that the electrolysis > current is 640 mA/sq. cm. So using Mike's dimensions I calculated a > cathode surface area of about 37.7 sq. cm., which implies a total > current of 24.1 A was flowing. This is not inconsistent with other data which indicate power levels of 100 W+ and cell voltages of 20 V+ -- we're looking at 480 W here, based on some fragments of data and assumptions. A&Z don't tell us the pertinent parameters for Fig 7. > The definition of a Coulomb is the amount of current it takes to > deposit 0.0011180 grams of silver from a silver nitrate solution. At > 107.868 grams Ag per mole, and 1 electron to plate out a silver atom, > that means a Coulomb is 1.03645e-5 moles of electrons. To form 1 mole > of D then we need 9.6483e4 Coulombs. At 24.1A (=C/sec) that means we > had to run for 1.11 hours before the Pd cathode was loaded to D/Pd of > .65, at which point the cavity's internal pressure would start to > noticeably rise. Is it really true that the capsule body has to be loaded to the beta phase before D+ passes into the cavity? I don't see this as a necessity. Kirk described the transition from alpha to beta being mediated by a condition where the density of D+ is such that they begin to interact with each other (and the lattice, I suppose), finding the positions of equilibrium in the beta phase. In CF cells, the anode surrounds the cathode, forcing D+ in from all directions and loading from alpha to beta phase proceeds as noted. In 1994(J), which Kirk doesn't have, referring to Fig C(a) which I summarized in a earlier post, A&Z say "where the electrolysis current density is at I = 640 ma/cm^2, the average time it takes for the Deuterium atom to pass through the B zone [capsule wall] and enter the C zone [cavity] is tc = Ao [intercept with X axis]" This is ~0.8 hours incubation time. > This also optimistically assumes that no D is lost > to the reaction: D + D -> D2(g), i.e. no bubbles of D2. (I believe > that in fact the fraction of D going into the bulk will decrease as > the Pd cathode loads, and the back reaction to form D2 commences. > This will extend the time to get to .65, and make my following > comments more severe.) But the Pd-black is a sink for D+, and if nuclear reactions are going on "consuming" the D+, it may be some time before the capsule has to load to beta phase. > So we have a bit of a measurement error problem here. Figure 7 > seems to show zero lag time. The points are connected in what seems > to be a 'dot-to-dot' fashion, and it looks like the line from the > second point goes right to the origin, implying something less than > 1/4 hr lag time? That's quite different from 1.1 hrs (or greater). > Figure 6(A) of the '94 paper seems to be a schematic, but it > extrapolates back to what seems to be about 1/2 hour, still less than > 1.1. The figure is schematic to the extent that many points have been left out, but I find no reason to suppose that it does not reflect real data. > Note that to make the apparent data fit the loading requirement which > I am _assuming_ is active (i.e. D/Pd=.65 throughout), the current or > electrode surface area would have to be 2-4X greater than I have > calculated. I used Mike's data for the '94 case, but it might be true > that the actual cathode dimensions are needed (and we are back to > wishing for a full experimental description). I wish we had full description too. It would save a lot of pushing and shoving looking for fits between conjecture and data. > > In any case, adding 3 grams or even 5 grams to the 170 will extend the > load time proportionately (3% for 5g), assuming good contact between > the Pd black and the cathode wall. If good contact doesn't exist, > then neither surface or bulk diffusion would easily occur. The lag > evidenced by the Pd black runs is _well_ above that amount. Yet the > estimated difference in D2 produced is minuscule in comparison to the > major bulk loading going on. > > At this point I have to throw up my hands and admit to a lack of ideas > as to why there seems to be the correlation between particle size and > 'incubation period'. It no longer seems to be related to the loading > concerns I was proposing before. The cathode, and by inference the Pd > black, seems to load much faster than I initially expected, and that > makes my earlier proposal moot. However, the apparently large time > differences noted by A&Z translate into very small D and Pd mass > differences, so I am fundamentally concerned about reproducibility and > accuracy. Might it be possible that 2-3% of the Pd black is _not_ in > good contact with the rest, and thus would show the slower gas loading > behavior (i.e. my Gedanken Expt. with the Pd-in-a-bottle)?? I think we are looking at different cases without the specific parameters for each case. I think this is a good-faith position, where the general aspect of the papers shows good work and care over a long period. The documentation could be much better, as we both agree. > A potential alternative is that we are dealing with a non-equilibrium > condition, where the pressure rise inside the cathode cannot be > predicted from the equilibrium data. However, that is another > fundamentally more difficult experimental situation that requires a > lot more data than presented. Also, trying to guess how that might > occur is a worthless exercise without data to compare to. Quite so. We just don't have the data. > In fairness, we might reconsider A&Z's version of the spillover > process, but my lack of creativity in finding a 'mundane' explanation > does not automatically mean my objections to A&Z's mechanism are null > and void. These are clearly separable things. Of course. You are working from data and concepts you have confidence in, testing for consistency as indicators of good/sloppy work. > A&Z do clearly state that the Pd black is loaded to a greater extent > than the cathode wall in the '97 paper. In the '94 paper they state > that the CF reaction takes place in the Pd black. The whole idea of > having to heat the sample to drive out the He, and the latticequake > model, implies a belief on the author's part that the _bulk_ is > important. Unless some magic has been conducted on the Pd black > (which would be Nobel prize work), the spillover D coming from the > walls will migrate across the Pd black surface _AND_ enter its bulk, > and the bulk and surface backflow plus the gas pathway will assure > equivalent loading. So I restate my conclusion that I can't see that > this approach, while having interesting side issues, has any > significant differences from a standard solid Pd cathode in a closed > cell with respect to how and why CF might occur. Stated that way, there isn't a distinction. The CF reaction occurs when condition X is reached, whether on a "surface" in "bulk" or at catalytic zones of undefined properties. The differences are in what can be called the engineering aspects -- how stable is it, how repeatable, how large is the effect, how clear the signatures. A&Z were showing 200% excess heat at the hundreds of KJ/hr level, maintained over hundreds of hours in 1993 [1994(E)], Fig A2. They could turn the reaction on and off, etc. Stated _this_ way, there is a distinction between the solid cathodes, though perhaps not in a scientific sense. Before we leave this, I have dug up some interesting information about Pd-black, thanks to some pointers from Peter Glueck. Assuming the 40 nm particles are cubes, I estimate 1.3(10^15) particles with an area of 8300 square meters per gram. That's a _lot_ of area. J-M quote a Pd powder with an area of 20 square meters/gram with impurities in the range of 1500 ppm. Method of preparation unknown. A company called Argonide makes metal powders by exploding wires with high current surges in an argon atmosphere. Their Pd powder has particles in the 20-200 nm range. Fred Tepper, the president, told me that powder prepared this way has zero porosity, but the internal structure of the particles is highly disordered. When heated below the melting point, exothermic reactions occur. We don't know how A&Z powders are prepared, it can be done electrochemically as well. The exothermic re-ordering that Tepper mentions might be involved in the apparent melting, but in no way will it account for the sustained heat release A&Z report. > I also repeat my general complaints: Not enough experimental details > to allow a valid replication attempt, That is true, certainly. I'm not sure what would be enough for replication. > no significant calibration data > being presented to allow assessment of the various techniques > reliability, and what I consider reasonable mundane explanations for > most of the data that supposedly 'proves' CF has occurred. Here we disagree. The energy release is not mundane at all, and there is adequate calibration of the calorimeter in 1997 HTS Fig 6 and in 1994(E) Fig A2. The latter shows coincidence between input and output power until the CF reaction ignites. The other half of the data is the mass spectrometry, for which you find room for mundane explanations of some of the data. > ------------------ > > Mike has a few comments about the 'DS-vessel' experiments regarding > pressure and temperature time profiles. The 'EV' on that is this: > As you hydride Pd, heat is released which raises the Pd temperature. > Depending on the thermal conductivity between Pd and SS (stainless > steel) and between individual Pd particles, and between the powder and > the thermocouple well (assuming the thermocouple well is in the > powder), the actual temperature rise can be quite variable. One needs > to do full calorimetry on the amount a water bath was heated to avoid > thermal path problems. Detailed interpretation of the temperature > rise requires that you believe you have got all the variables under > control. Inserting a well into a powder sample does not do this. Once again, it is the DS-Vessel, not a DS cathode. All that A&Z are attempting to do is to establish a reference point for the heat release in hydrating the Pd-black. The principle is old. Early in the F&P affair, some critics claimed that the heat release seen by F&P was simply that of hydrating the Pd. This experiment was simply to show that the released energy was soon absorbed by the bath, in contrast with the sustained heat release of the CF reaction. > With the electrolyte temperature remaining essentially unchanged the > heating effect would be greatest inside the cathode (or SS vessel), > and less so in the near-surface region where the electrolyte would > start to cool it off rapidly. > > The brief pressure rise seen with the Pd filings which is followed by > a drop and a subsequent rise is an example of what is known as > 'activation'. Basically the idea is that the raw sample has surface > contaminants that block D2 absorbtion significantly. However enough > absorbtion does occur to lead to subsequent reactions that either > clean off the surface, or fracture the material (because of swelling) > producing fresh clean surface. Having to 'activate' virgin hydride > material is a standard procedure. > > I didn't see anything unexpected in either of these cases. There isn't, nor do A&Z claim that there is. they simply demonstrate the mundane reaction in the same context as their experiments to emphasize the non-mundane character of their energy release. > ------------------------------------- > > Mike asked about the alpha, beta, and gamma phases. > > There are several books on this subject, including the Alefeld and > Volkl one I've referenced before. Also you can see Fukai, "The > Metal-Hydrogen System, Basic Bulk Properties" (1993) ISBN > 3-540-55637-0. > > My understanding is this: > > The alpha phase is a low concentration, unordered solution of H(D) in > Pd. Once the H concentration starts to increase, H-H interactions > start to have influence, and an ordered beta phase starts to form. > This is just like ice forming in water, with the beta phase slowly > spreading out to encompass the whole sample. The H(D) goes into the > octahedral holes in the fcc structure, and a lattice swelling occurs, > but the basic fcc structure stays intact. > > I know less about the gamma phase. It was invoked by Fleischman I > believe to explain some CF results, and is supposed to be a new > high loading phase. The question is exactly what Fleischman meant by > 'gamma'. The usual phase diagram of fcc metal-H systems doesn't show > a gamma phase unless the material forms a dihydride (PdH2). I don't > believe Pd is thought to do this, but perhaps that's what F. was > proposing... The gamma phase is supposed to be of the fluorite > structure, which specifies the H locations as the tetrahedral holes. > Normally the tetrahedral holes are about 1/2 the size of the > octahedral ones, but in a highly loaded and swollen lattice the hole > size may have increased enough to allow H in. > > The final problem here is that different authors use different > terminology to describe the phases. While I use "beta", you will find > phase diagrams in Fukai that show that phase as "alpha'". So, you > always have to be careful not to get accidentally confused between one > set of 'customary' designations vs. another. The "gamma" might be > such an instance. > > I'm not expert enough to go much further than this, check some books > for more details. > Thanks, that is very helpful. > -------------------------------------------- > > Mike refers to Figures 'A1 and A2' of the '94 paper, which I believe > are Figure 1, series A (A1, A2, and A3), and equates the ~275 hour > period before excess heat is detected as the 'incubation period' That is indeed what I said, but it wasn't what I thought or meant. I was aware that the ~275 hour period is not incubation time, but is well beyond incubation time, but my fingers didn't quite keep up with my intent. > My only comment is that it isn't clear to me the 275 hour time period > is related to the internal cell Pd black's 'incubation period' at all. > It seems to simply be the usual time delay before observing CF events > most authors have. As I noted above Fig 6(A) of that paper suggests > the incubation period is a few (<10) hours. Quite so, we agree. The ~275 hour period is a validation of the calorimetry. It is the operating cell configuration and the calorimetery clearly shows not significant noise or variation until the reaction ignites. I don't see how one could ask for better validation of the calorimtetry. > -------------------------------------------- > > Mike dislikes my invocation of the Storms flavor of CF, but I stand by > my comments that the A&Z cathode, excepting possible impurities on the > Pd black, is not significantly different from a high void volume > 'solid' cathode, which Storms rejects for CF use. What can I say? If the Pd-black is packed, the "voids" are exceedingly small. I don't know what Storms means by a 'void'. In normal usage, one might imagine that in casting a rod of Pd that trapped bubbles could occur, forming 'voids'. In this case one might see these as the A&Z cavity fragmented and scattered, but nonetheless as being sinks into which D+ in the alpha phase can accumulate, delaying or preventing the appearance of the beta phase or higher. Thus in this case I would agree with Storms. In which case, the two cases are really not comparable. > > -------------------------------------------- > > At this point, I want to return to the 'quote-and-response' approach. > Picking up late in the note... > > Mike wrote: > > > > They offer an explanation, the CF reactions. > > Yes, but their arguments are lacking IMHO. That was the point of most > of my writings. Sure. We each have a threshold of acceptance, and A&Z don't cross yours. > > It is the effort to find > > alternatives that becomes increasingly difficult. > > Particularly when inadequate experimental detail is presented. I find > myself constantly second guessing A&Z, trying to make sure my guesses > are consistent, and then finding out they aren't. So, I give up, it > isn't worth my time anymore. There is life beyond A&Z for both of us. Thanks for the dialogue. > > You give A&Z demerits for > > not finding a mundane explanation for the He isotopes when the 1997 HTS > > paper goes to great lengths to discuss possible contaminants and means > > taken to exclude them. > > Let's get this straight. They say they found He leaks in the normal > QMS. It isn't just A&Z, the normal QMS uses flowing gas and if you are looking for traces of anomalous He, it isn't the way to go. > They say that the limited QMS and closed QMS configurations > fixed it. But I can't confirm or deny that as the magnitude of the > leak was never displayed to begin with. See above, I think you are misreading "leak". I mentioned before that I believe a weakness of the turbomolecular and other vacuum pumps is that at low pressures, contaminants can migrate (not 'leak') from the pump back into the test chamber. A&Z's 'limited' QMS, I believe, deliberately introduced a "leak" near the pump inlet to allow a gas flow which would sweep vagrant molecules of pump lubricant out of the system. In the closed system these factors are simply nonexistent. It is all metal, the molecular pump is valved off during the critical period, the getter eventually absorbs all the chemically active species, leaving only He. I can look at their data and > see how leaks could explain their 4-He data, and I default to the > conservative position that they have not solved the problem. I think you are not looking at the closed QMS structure correctly. See above. > A&Z do > present lots of graphs, all of which do not resolve the issue. They > do discuss these graphs, but don't address why the observed 4-He > cannot come from a leak, only how it is 'clear' evidence of CF. A leak from where? The atmosphere? That would show other gases as well. The "leak" hypothesis does not explain the presence of 3He and the concentration ratio to 4He. 3He is not a common isotope of He. I don't think A&Z discuss it because a well-built stainless steel vacuum system doesn't leak. In some cases, critical measurements were made 67 hours after the sample was heated. The 'leak' hypothesis simply doesn't hold up. > I don't call that going to 'great lengths to discuss', I call it going > to 'great lengths to convince'. There is a difference. The discussion includes the many charts, which simply show that similar results were obtained for many runs, so they are not reporting a one-time fluke. Figs 2, 11, and others are part of a layout of alternatives to show that they have studied possible reactions and molecules which can appear. Their discussion hasn't been as extensive as ours, perhaps, but we have focused on narrow issues. > > This reminds me of Dick Blue's contention that there > > are always alternative hypotheses, without stating what these are, other > > than attempts to discredit the evidence detail by detail. > > > > In principle, as long as someone can think, there could be > alternatives. The trick for the critic is to come up with rational > and probable ones, which is a value judgment and thus often the > source of endless debate. Yes, indeed. And so we do. And it is the job of the advocate to ferret out flaws in the critical arguments and present constructs which fit the facts better than the critic's alternatives. Here the selection of data rears its ugly head. > The trick for authors is to conclusively show their work is of high > quality and to show the value of their view (which usually means > establishing a predictive value for their 'theories' of their data). Yes, of course. But there is a distinction between experimental evidence and a predictive theory. The test of theory is prediction. Here the Rutherford reaction does not predict the experimental results, so one is faulty, and we can choose up sides. A&Z offer a theory which is probably incomplete, as it may not predict the outcome of other experiments. It is just an offering, not a proclamation. > It is unusual to just present data. Most researchers like to try to > interpret it. The process of interpreting the data leads to > extensions of the 'EV', and in revolutionary cases, a major > modification of the 'EV'. > > > The issue of Fig 17 of 1997 HTS is more important, and I am interested in > > Kirk's new interpretation of it. > > Basically, I get very confused separating the background from the > sample. There are lots of water and hydrogen present, all of which > can lead to scrambling reaction with the D2 that can show clear > kinetic dependencies on the time scale of the experiment. The idea is > that the signal is being swamped by interferences, which is not a good > experimental situation. I think this was a stage in their experimental work, and they express some dissatisfaction with it. They say, however, that they were able to see the "coupled spectra" with the "limited QMS" system, and Figs. 14-16 amply show this. This gave them confidence they were on the right track. Fig 14 is a preliminary result with lots of background noise. Figs 15-16 show data that isn't being swamped. > One fundamental problem with the use of the 'non-deuterated' sample as > a control is that the deuterated sample is expected to have a high > residual D content. It has just been freshly loaded and unloaded > (which has to happen to get the vacuum in the chamber), but the > question is how much D was left. Nominally, the nonD'd sample would > have _no_ residual H isotopes in it, but the fact is that it might > because of low level absorbtion from the vacuum chamber background > itself. Let's review the purpose of Fig 17. The discussion centers on the search for 3T. It is acknowledged that the QMS resolution is not sufficient to distinguish 3T from 3He (thinking about it, I don't see how it could). Therefore, it is necessary to look for compounds. The Rutherford reaction produces equal quantities of 3He and 3T, and it is reasonable to assume that 3T produced in, and driven out, of the sample would form compounds with H and D. 3He will not. form compounds. Fig 17 compares the quantities of deuterated and non-deuterated samples for the mass numbers (5,6,7) associated with the 3T compounds, and they are equal. It is hard to maintain, then, that the released energy is coming from the Rutherford reaction. Kirk is concerned with the apparently anomalous behavior of the mass 4 and mass 3 traces for the deuterated and non-deuterated samples. There is indeed lots of H and H20 around, which will contain 0.01% of D, which is just what is shown. In this context I want to quote from the legend for 1997 HTS Fig 22[VII]..." Under such super-vacuum, ...surface pollutant of Pd-black as "atomic cluster" is sticked strongly with several to ten atomic layer whose volume corresponds to around a tenth of Pd-black." This is rather remarkable. It is compatible with my estimate of the 40 nm particles being a few hundred atoms across. It is not surprising that D2 would be driven off of the non-deuterated samples, and interesting that the deuterated samples would show ten times the D2. It is, one might say, mundane. > A better control IMO is a Pd black sample that has been gas loaded > with D to 'normal' levels of .5-.7 D/Pd, and then unloaded just as the > 'CF' Pd black. Then, the residual amount should be more similar, both > in quantity and isotopic composition. This would be interesting. But as I mentioned above, the point of Fig 17 is the absence of 3T. other traces are side issues. > > > > Here rises the selection of data to define the universe of discourse, which > > is the hidden arbitrary in a seemingly rational process. I have seen one or > > two blemishes, even when explained and corrected, used to summarily reject > > a body of work. To say ALL is to demand impeccable work in all places. The > > sense of our agreement was that the peripheral, but commonly-pointing data > > could be of less quality, provided they point in the same direction. Now > > Kirk has upped the requirements for the supporting data. > > > > Nope, I haven't changed. I expect every individual piece of data to > be of acceptable quality. (Judgment of data's quality is also an > invocation of the 'EV', and is also subject to some flexibility based > on circumstances.) If the specific conclusion drawn from that > data cannot invoke the 'EV' in its support, then it necessarily needs > to be better. When an author uses 7 sets of data to draw 7 > sub-conclusions which then are used to form 3 prime conclusions, I > first examine the 7 subsidiary ones. If numbers 2,4,and 5 for example > don't hold up, I see if that kills prime conclusions 1, 2, or 3. It's > all a house of cards that starts at the measurement quality and works > up to the global scientific principles. That's why I don't like to > read other people's critiques first, and that's why I spend so much > time studying the data. If the data are bogus, then any conclusion > drawn from them are also. Note that this means nothing as to whether > something exists or not. In the face of insufficient or uncompelling > data, the conclusion is always: "We can't say "no" for sure ever, but > there is no evidence for "yes"." I quite agree, really. We are quite together on this one point:..."Note that this means nothing as to whether something exists or not". Much hurt feelings could be avoided in these discussions if the 'critics' could credit honest observation that something anomalous was observed which warrants patient and continuing study. There might be progress. One always looks for the mundane, but should be willing to consider the case for the exceptional. I think the experimenter and theorist are at odds. The experimenter sees an effect and may build an industry on it, but the theorist must guard the accumulated knowledge against the niggling suspicion that it is a house of cards. > > > If one study or set is clearly bogus, what rational person would use > > > it in their defense? So the question is always, does the data support > > > the conclusions as presented? > > > > If Kirk is referring to his analysis of Fig 7 above, he should reconsider > > what is "bogus". This is why I have been engaging Kirk in a detailed > > discussion of the QMS data. > > > > Touching on ad hominem here. I've lost track of what Mike is > referring to but I can say that all my speculations are just that, and > I have no problem in eliminating them when they are shown to be > error-laden. I'd hope I'd do the same with published work. The remark was a blemish on the spirit of our conversation, and uncalled-for. But Kirk was using "bogus' in a general way, and he had gone to great lengths, in shouting capitals, to find apparent errors in Fig 7. Yet his own analysis was flawed, so in a sense his work was "bogus", not A&Z's. > > That doesn't change the point I was making, that using data and/or > studies that you (generically) know are bogus to defend a position is > not good logic. Well, of course. > > This will usually require recourse to theory, which is unfortunately > > unavailable, and everyone knows it. Inventive critics can go into denial, > > blocking the added effort necessary to reconcile what is known with what is > > new. > > > > Theory always comes from high quality data. If a theory is really > good, it suggests other work that can be done to verify it. To > discredit the 'EV', first high quality data is needed, followed by a > good theory that incorporates both the new data _and_ the old, or that > shows why the old data that led to the 'EV' were misinterpreted. > > You don't just dump other people's work because you don't like it, > except as a temporary measure when you feel sure you know what is > going on and want to proceed. Then you proceed and get the data that > solidifies your position (and maybe helps explain the data you didn't > like). At some point though you will always need to incorporate or > explain conflicting results, or else simply live with the fact that > _your_ theory isn't all-encompassing either. > > Is there a good theory of CF now? I don't think so, because the data > is usually contradictory when compared to other CF work. That > situation always suggests unclear experiments, and the need to clean > them up. You can't dump the 'EV' based on bad data _or_ bad theory. I don't think anyone, me included, wants to dump existing theory. It is the summation of too much good work. But there are those on the 'EV' side which reject the accumulating body of evidence because of a lack of encompassing theory. This is a mistake. What we will see, eventually, is a new understanding which will reduce all the discordant findings to illustrations of some general principle which we don't see yet. Once again, I thank Kirk for a valuable and extended discussion. Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 13:27:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18344; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:10:54 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:10:54 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Indirectly heated. Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:06:34 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3e43$6d21bb20$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"JjuZV1.0.MU4.M5Vxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16138 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Scott Little ; vortex Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 6:02 AM Subject: Indirectly heated. > > An indirectly heated cathode might work very well. The cathode >can then be biased to try to do the hydrogen thing. Maybe this is part >of the art. Example; Tungsten in whatever.... with the whatever being >electrically connected outside of chamber. Tungsten is electrically >floating ... > > Tung and 'what' are close to electrical ground and some part of >the set up can then be positive to the required amount. Or RF could be >used. > > Also: If the idea is to heat stuff up, then why not just >establish arc in chamber, and keep excitation and heat that way? Because then it would be Correa instead of BLP, John> :-) Regards, Frederick > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 14:35:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02739; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:14:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:14:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34EE2A6F.1FFA bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:14:23 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Refractory -Sheathed Heaters for the BLP Experiments. References: <01bd3e32$b7ed21a0$1b8cbfa8 default> <34EDE9D4.77E4@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tdzJM3.0.ig.51Wxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16139 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > I may be stupid (I know that because my wife calls me that all the > time.) but as the electrons fall into the lower states (BLP), shouldn't > you see X-ray emission? Frank, as my wife explained it to me, all men lose 50 IQ points once they say "I do". I claim saying "I do" proves we never had the points. The emission is claimed to be in the UV range but the energy is alleged to be mysteriously transferred to the K atom where it is emitted. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 14:49:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07100; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:40:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:40:55 -0800 Message-ID: <19980220223747.13950.rocketmail send1d.yahoomail.com> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:37:46 -0800 (PST) From: Anton Rager Subject: test ignore To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"uomD73.0.nk1.pPWxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16140 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: test message from new account == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 15:00:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02922; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:46:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:46:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:41:02 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: McKubre's wisdom / Little's experience I Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802201744_MC2-3418-444A compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"J2X67.0.Tj.EVWxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16141 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex [I may have posted another version of this message earlier. It did not come back to me. I apologize if this is a duplicate posting.] Scott Little writes: ATTENTION CF BELIEVERS: Please READ & UNDERSTAND the following part of McKubre's wonderfully rational statement: . . . There are two possible explanations for the situation described in the first two sentences: 1. They are attempting to observe a real phenomenon without adequate control over the critical parameters. 2. Their calorimeters have occasionally exhibited significant, persistent errors for presently unknown reasons. Based upon my own experiences, I feel that #2 is at least a possibility. . . . I am sure that McKubre's calorimetry is MUCH closer to ideal than my own The ideal instrument is one that good enough to achieve high sigma results and flexible enough to adapt easily to different experiments. Many people feel that McKubre's calorimeter is too complicated and inflexible. A scientist who worked with it described it as "a great white elephant." The term "ideal instrument" has no absolute meaning. It does not always refer to the instrument with the most precision, the highest power, the most stable signal. A magnifying glass is the ideal instrument to determine the species of a beetle; a scanning electron microscope would be overkill. . . . Therefore I can only ask point-blank: Dr. McKubre, what probability would you assign to #2 above? McKubre will hedge on this, because he is that kind of person. He hedges where he should not when he writes: "you should be skeptical." Here is *my* answer, and Fleischmann's answer, which Scott should please READ & UNDERSTAND. If such widely replicated results, at such high sigma, might be "persistent errors for presently unknown reasons" then experimental science means nothing and we should toss out knowledge going back to Isaac Newton. Get real Scott! We are talking Sigma 90 data, seen in more than 40 experiments at SRI alone, and in hundreds of other experiments elsewhere, many of them at much higher power levels under better control than SRI ever achieved. Pons and Fleischmann and the French AEC boil off experiments are good examples. If this is not rock solid scientific proof, nothing is. McKubre is a wonderful scientist in many ways, but he is wrong about some things: 1. It does NOT take millions of dollars to do Pd - D2O. People like Ohmori, Mizuno and Storms got better results than McKubre for $50,000 to $100,000. That's not hay, but it ain't millions. I do not like to be harsh, but I believe that if McKubre would pay more attention to material science considerations discussed by Fleischmann, Storms and Cravens, he would achieve greater control and more consistent success. Fleischmann, Storms and Cravens think so to. As far as I know, Scott Little has never considered these recommendations or implemented these techniques, so his chances of success are virtually nil. He writes "based upon my own experiences, I feel that #2 . . ." Scott Little has no relevant experience. He has made no effort to replicate these experiments. Scott Little is eminently qualified to talk about calorimetry based on his experience. But calorimetry and cold fusion are two different subjects. Scott knows how to build the piano (the calorimeter). He is not qualified to play Beethoven at Carnegie Hall. CF is what you do with the calorimeter, with materials that you select, prepare and electrolyze. That's the hard part. It calls for involved electrochemical knowledge and techniques described in papers like this one by Enyo from 1972: "Change of mechanism of the hydrogen-electrode reaction with overpotential -- part 1. Distribution of the reaction affinity among constituent steps." Master that, and then tell us about your experience. Scott Little can critique CF on the same basis I do, based on book learning, conferences, visits to people's laboratories, etc., not experience. 2. Experimental proof does not require good reproducibility or control. It does not require any control. Sunspots, earthquakes and supernova are beyond our control, but we know they are real because they are readily observable. The boiling cells at the French AEC are also readily observable. The fact that only half the cells boil is irrelevant. The fact that it takes months of effort and megadollars to set up the AEC experiments is irrelevant. When a cell does boil, there is no rational reason to doubt the excess energy. Scott Little cannot suggest one! The Japanese NHE scientists tried their best to debunk it, but they know as well as I do that their "explanation" is 5 orders of magnitude off. It takes months of effort and many attempts to create a single top quark, but nobody claims this low reproducibility is, of itself, a reason to doubt the existence of the top quark. There is no connection between reproducibility and confirmation. There is no tradition equating the two; the equation was never part of science until now. It was invented in 1989, and it has been applied exclusively to cold fusion, along with other half-baked conceits like "pathological science" and "regionalization of results." Reproducibility is an important issue, but it has little to do with confirmation except as a way of filtering out human frailty like incompetence, delusion and fraud. Confirmation is defined by the signal to noise ratio. Sometimes, a single unreplicated test proves the issue, as with the top quark, the airplane, or the atom bomb. The latter two were quintessential scientific tests. Revisionary assertions that they were "mere engineering runs" are ahistorical and incorrect. Oppenheimer and the others considered the atom bomb test an experiment. They were *not* sure it would work. In my opinion, a single boil-off test at the French AEC confirms the IMRA claims by eliminating the possibility of incompetence, delusion or fraud at IMRA. Therefore this test proves the issue as dramatically as the atom bomb test, and nothing can "unprove" it. Nothing can touch it. No other experiments or "experiences" are relevant -- not Scott Little's, or McKubre's, or anyone else's. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 15:11:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09957; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:56:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:56:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:51:00 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Murray Ohmori critique Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802201755_MC2-3423-11E3 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"6jqnq2.0.PR2.ueWxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16142 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Sigh . . . I should not bother to address this stuff. Nobody else will. Scientists like Mizuno, Bockris or Ohmori will not bother. This may give readers the impression that scientists acquiesce, when actually they dismiss Murray. Shkedi ran four light-water Ni cells at 180 to 600 mA for up to 4 days a run with an average power accuracy of 0.6 mW. All released H2 and O2 were carefully recombined and returned to the cells. That's a fine technique, but it isn't necessary. Ohmori and most other electrochemists accomplish the same thing, with equal precision, by keeping track of how much make-up water they add to the cell. If Murray (or Shkedi or Jones for that matter) had ever asked an electrochemist they would know this. They would realize that these claims about recombination are bunk. They have wasted years on this empty, foolish, non-issue that anyone with a syringe and a little common sense can deal with. Confirming was a report by JE Jones et all at Brigham Young U. . . . They used low current densities of 1-2 mA/cm2. This does not apply to Ohmori or anyone else who uses a thousand times more power than Jones et al. Please note: Ohmori's 1 to 3 amps <> 1 to 2 milliamps. Apples <> oranges. This shows how subtle and unexpected the artifacts can be in these deceptively simple experiments. Right. Subtle and unexpected differences like a thousand times less power. Hardly a more ideal set-up for promoting recombination and reducing Faradaic efficiency could hardly be devised. Of course, they found apparent excess heats of 4 to 22%. . . . And of course, there was no measurable recombination. Moreover, so much is left undone. Why not a simple chemical extraction and assay to determine the exact microgram amounts of Fe on each gold plate? Why not introduce controlled trace amounts of Fe into the electrolyte to study deposition patterns and the accuracy of the measurements? . . . Murray is so sure he knows how to do this experiment! He should do it himself. It is oh-so-easy to dream up a laundry list of things that I would do if I ran the zoo (as Dr. Suess put it). And how does he know this has *not* been done? Does he think Ohmori buys gold samples at a pawnshop? The stuff comes with an exhaustive listing of impurities. What is the precision and sensitivity of AES in this setting? What might be the estimated errors of all the numbers claimed? Why not ask the authors and the four laboratories that did the independent analyses? Call Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Meidensha. A person who is seriously interested in learning such details would ask. Ohmori has 500+ pages of data. How much of it has Murray requested? Why not collect evolved H2 and O2 and recombine them to settle the Faradaic efficiency issue? Not necessary; see above. So, it is not clear if this data refers to the same electrode studied by AES. It is not said whether SIMS was done on other plates, and whether any such data was comparable. All samples were investigated with all four types of instrument, at four independent labs, in blind tests. That is, tests in which the labs were not told whether they were looking at unused cathodes, cathodes that produced heat, or cathodes that produced no heat. The same results were reported by all four labs, and seen by Ohmori and Mizuno with their in-house instruments. Quoting Ohmori: "The isotopic content of magnesium, silicon, potassium, calcium, titanium chromium, and iron...Table 3...As one can see, the isotopic contents of the elements other than iron are in agreement with these natural isotopic abundances within the limits of error. Therefore, these elements can be regarded as the impurities accumulated from the electrolyte solution." Well, in that case, why doesn't the Fe have the same source? They just stated the reason! The isotopes were not shifted! The iron isotopes were. Furthermore there was massive, macroscopic, visible quantities of iron precipitated to the bottom of the cell, but only microscopic amounts of impurities. I saw gold samples that had been electrolyzed for months. To the naked eye they looked as clean as the unused samples, which demonstrates Ohmori's astounding skill in electrochemistry. If Murray or I tried this experiment, the cathodes would be filthy in a few days. The iron formed on the gold and fell to the bottom of the test tube. They argue that the Fe produced is "at least one to two orders of magnitude" greater than all Fe sources in the solution and the electrodes. Yes, it was. However, this production data is highly suspect, based on estimates from AES data, not based on direct chemical extraction and physical weighing . . . And how would Murray know this? How many days did he spend in the lab with Ohmori? How many times has he observed this experiment. How many times has he done it himself? . . . not checked by adding controlled Fe sources to the electrolyte Another laundry list suggestion! . . . with no pre-run SIMS scan of the cathode. As I said, all four instruments were used on pre- and post-run samples, in blind tests, by independent labs. Now that detail may not have been mentioned in the paper that Murray read, but no paper ever describes all details. Let's talk about how a responsible person writes news reports, a critiques, a review, or some other factual article. When he was writing this critique, something occurred to Murray. It popped into his mind: "Hey, maybe they never did a pre-run SIMS scan . . ." When that happens to you . . . lean to STOP. Okay? HOLD IT RIGHT THERE!!! You should not assume that everything that pops into your head is automatically true. It isn't good form to publish unfounded assertions in a belligerent "critique" without first checking. You should ASK, damn it -- ASK FIRST! Investigate! Get the facts, visit the lab, phone or fax. Scientists like Ohmori ignore Murray because he makes these infuriating unfunded assertions. Furthermore, a huge source of impurities, including Fe, is totally ignored . . . Nonsense! There was nothing made of iron in the cell. Yet when the experiment ended there was so much enough iron precipitate I could see it. Jed Rothwell in Infinite Energy #11, Nov-Dec., 1996, in a long, detailed review of McKubre's EPRI Final Report, page 64, in the box "Fifty Sigma Results" quotes McKubre's EPRI Perspective, "The conditions in the successful cells were not entirely under experimental control because the closed cells slowly leach silica and other materials from the anode and the cathode and its supports as well as from the cell walls..," Good Grief! Talk about mixing apples and oranges! Talk about a meaningless data stew! Please note: 1. This is a different experiment performed in a different kind of cell made of different materials. 2. McKubre did not find macroscopic levels of impurities lying on the bottom of his cell, for goodness sake! We are talking about orders of magnitude more iron than all other contamination. These are very clean cells, they take weeks to purify and prepare. (Both McKubre's and Ohmori's.) . . . and, from the box, "Overkill Example," "Other solid parts are Al2O3, SiO2, and PTFE [Teflon], which are considered in this analysis to be nonreactive." Nonreactive? Yes, nonreactive. Aluminum and silicon are not iron, and Teflon is famous for being non-reactive. See the Encyclopedia Britannica: "[Teflon] is distinguished by its complete indifference to attack by almost all chemicals and by its slippery surface; it retains its physical properties over a wide temperature range (-270 to 250 C, or -450 to 480 F). These qualities suit polytetrafluoroethylene to uses in gaskets, bearings, linings for containers and pipes, and parts for valves and pumps that must operate in corrosive environments and for protective coatings on cooking utensils, saw blades, and other articles." But what does this have to do with Ohmori? His cell is quartz (SiO2), not Teflon. Murray mixes a data stew by grabbing one irrelevant fact from one experiment in one lab, and throwing into the pot with another experiment thousands of miles away. So, indeed, in "Transmutations", the actual Fe present can readily be accounted for by obvious impurity sources. This is incredible. Murray waved his hand and came up with this assertion, and instantly he converts it to a fact. This is the Dick Blue technique: write down an statement and hey presto, it transmogrifies into a fact. Talk about transmutation! Murray has never seen the test apparatus. He has no earthly notion what these "obvious sources" might be. He could not list one to save his life, and he did not try. We are talking about a source of iron contamination so massive it can seen with the naked eye. So, Murray waves his hand and with boundless confidence and not one microgram of evidence or knowledge or facts, he assures us there are "obvious impurity sources." Where? Quartz is not iron. Gold is not iron. There is no iron, steel or iron alloy components in the cell. You would not put iron components in the cell when the purpose of the experiment is to find out if iron is being transmuted. The iron precipitate on the test tube bottom is heavily mixed with gold. Does Murray think that gold-plus-iron flakes are routinely found on floors and table tops at Hokkaido U.? The rest of the message is an incoherent data stew of statements about Ohmori mixed up with statements made about other, unrelated experiments from the Cincinnati group. Ah, and a hilarious claim that the experiments "should be simple." Yeah, sure: simple. You can take Murray's word for it. Gosh, he's done more electrochemical experiments than he can remember and he's visited dozens of labs. Hey, it sounds simple in the paper, right? The paper is only five pages long. Just because a guy like Mizuno spent eight months setting up one experiment, it can't be anything Murray couldn't Master by Monday, right? Elsewhere in this data stew I spy statements about mass-spectrography, a subject about which Murray probably knows even less than I do. Unlike Murray, I know my limits, so I will not challenge this mish-mash. I note that Murray's previous "critiques" on spectrography were dead wrong and without merit, as Miley and others pointed out. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 20 21:41:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25691; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:32:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:32:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980220232557.00896860 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:25:57 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP stuff In-Reply-To: <34EE2A6F.1FFA bellsouth.net> References: <01bd3e32$b7ed21a0$1b8cbfa8 default> <34EDE9D4.77E4 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"rkqnS2.0.LH6.KRcxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16143 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: >...as the electrons fall into the lower states (BLP), shouldn't > you see X-ray emission? Really soft x-rays, since we're talking about hydrogen. In fact, BLP predicts the emission of such and is apparently working on an experiment to detect them. Check out "Extreme UV Spectroscopy Proposal" (or something like that) on their web page. Ed Strojny wrote: >You mention that there was a slight increase in pressure during the run >which you did not know the cause of. Could this increase in pressure be >explained by the production of H atoms? I doubt it because I think the atomic H lifetime is really short, resulting in a rather low equilibrium conc of atomic H in the chamber. I don't know for sure. It would be nice to directly detect the atomic H to confirm its presence. As Mike S said, the Pt filament is not very hot. Any ideas for an atomic H detector? Also, Horace communicated with me privately and suggested that I run the filament on +DC to eliminate any possibility of electron emission from the filament. I've got to go out of town for most of next week so we'll have a while to stew on all these ideas...AND for Dr Mills to decide to help us! (hey, I still need to email Dr. Farrell!) Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 05:44:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23395; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 05:41:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 05:41:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802211336.IAA06531 mercury.mv.net> Subject: More from Tom Valone Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 08:41:22 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"0665w2.0.Oj5.Ncjxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16144 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: From: Valone, Thomas Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 1998 1:01 PM To: 'editor infinite-energy.com' Cc: 'iri erols.com' Subject: Dept. of Energy NES Input Before 2/27 Gene: I hope you can take advantage of this opportunity to influence the DOE's National Energy Strategy by filling out the NES form which is at this web site. By getting as many people as possible to voice an opinion in support of infinite energy, new energy, free energy before 2/27, we may be able to get cold fusion, nuclear battery, GEET, PAGD and ZPE attention for the future NES. -TV http://www.eren.doe.gov/cnes/comments.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 07:16:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27993; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:14:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:14:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980221221441.006e1cc8 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:14:41 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Little's wisdom Cc: little mail.eden.com, "Mike McKubre" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980220100920.00aea888 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YnFNH.0.Jr6.Uzkxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16146 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:09 AM 2/20/98 -0600, Scott Little wrote: >ATTENTION CF BELIEVERS: Please READ & UNDERSTAND the following part of >McKubre's wonderfully rational statement: > >> c) We do not know how to reproduce our own experiments. We have generated >>more null results and hours of beautiful calorimetric balance (>100,000h) >>than anyone on the planet except Fleischmann and Pons. Nevertheless, the >>existence of a thermal anomaly in the D/Pd system is clear to me, as it is to >>them, because we have seen the effect with our own eyes and modulated it with >>our own hands. We cannot prove it to you because we are not in control of >all >>critical parameters. You should be skeptical, and remain so until we supply >>proof. > >There are two possible explanations for the situation described in the >first two sentences: > >1. They are attempting to observe a real phenomenon without adequate >control over the critical parameters. > >2. Their calorimeters have occasionally exhibited significant, persistent >errors for presently unknown reasons. > >Based upon my own experiences, I feel that #2 is at least a possibility. >Calorimetry excels above all other metrologies in providing a fertile >medium for the spawning and nurturing of subtle and insidious systematic >errors. > Number 1 sounds correct. Also, a number 3 (and 4) should be considered (vide infra). Consider a gendanken thought; Galileo meets "Lord of the Flies" (Golding, methinks). The latter is a book about shipwrecked boys and their puerile interactions when left alone on marooned an island. Suppose Galileo attempts to point out Jupiter's moons, to the little pudgy boy with thick, scratched, greasy obstructed glasses, but the boy refuses to use the telescope because he simply, wrongly, but willfully does not want to part with his scratched greasy dirty glasses. It is obvious the boy would have no hope of seeing the moons. Would that invalidate Galileo's observations? How about if the all the boys on the island INSISTED that only by the pudgy little boy himself seeing the moons and through his opacified scratched thick glasses and without a serious telescope, would there - nay, could there - be even the possibility of the EXISTENCE of Jupiter's moons? Would that make Jupiter's moons any less real? Now suppose, Galileo said exactly where the Jupiter and its moons were in the sky, but the boys insisted it was at a different location. One of the boys grabs the telescope and looks at a locus far from Jupiter and says that because it is not there, then Galileo was wrong. Would Galileo be wrong, if the group looked at the wrong location? Should Galileo be imprisoned under house arrest because of the myopic tyke and his unwashed friends? Moral of the story: S/N and the scientific method both matter too. Investigators who don't pay attention may be like the little boy with the scratched thick greasy glasses. So, IMO, perhaps there are a few more options to Scott Little's suggestions of possibilities. Here are two more. Number 3 - Noise analysis and the use of the scientific method remain important. Number 4 - There may be processes which quench the desired phenomena for which there is less than good understanding. Mitchell Swartz < From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 07:16:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27020; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:06:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:06:32 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Dilemma? Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:03:09 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3ed9$d278cf40$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"vtpgE.0.6c6.trkxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16145 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: While filling out the Energy Policy form that Gene brought to our attention, I noticed a repetitiousness in the questionnaire. To save time and space I wanted to refer to Cold Fusion and Related Phenomena. In Bureaucratise this would be the Acronym CFARP. However, Cold Fusion and Related Technologies, CFART had a better Ring to it. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 07:44:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02373; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:40:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:40:02 -0800 Message-ID: <34EEF560.1B3F interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:40:16 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP stuff References: <01bd3e32$b7ed21a0$1b8cbfa8 default> <34EDE9D4.77E4 interlaced.net> <3.0.5.32.19980220232557.00896860@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"U1h2S1.0.-a.GLlxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16147 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > (BLP stuff) OK, Scott, perhaps it is yet premature but: 1. As I understand it, BLP theory says that H is catalized by K to form hydrinos. 2. So far, W, K, and H2 using your form of their protocol has failed to produce excess heat in hot W runs of an hour or more. 3. The use of a glow discharge against a boat containing K metal (if desired, with a W mass nearby) in an H2 environment at various pressures WE KNOW will produce copious H, K, (W, if desired) atoms in the vicinity of the boat. 4. There should be no critical "life" problems with the system "3" above. A DC glow discharge should be as easy to instrument as the W filament. 5. If you can get ANY positive results, then you could worry about which "inventor" to deal with. 6. If you can,t get excess heat - then, SAVE ME BEFORE I SMOT AGAIN!! If none of these or *your* best ideas give results, then let BLP stew in their own ambiguous juice until they bless us with commercial devices incorporating their theories. Frank (impatient) Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 07:48:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03873; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:46:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:46:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34EEF6F7.2F4C interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:47:03 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Dilemma? References: <01bd3ed9$d278cf40$1b8cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HB9Ir3.0.Jy.fRlxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16148 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > (snip) > However, Cold Fusion and Related Technologies, > CFART had a better Ring to it. :-) > That comment should reach Jed FTLOT - (Faster-Than-Light-Odor-Transmission) Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 08:56:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12999; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:48:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:48:35 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Frank Stenger's BLP Stuff. Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:45:07 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3ee8$114dfb60$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"96dpQ.0.1B3.YLmxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16149 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well Frank, your suggestion that a DC discharge should do all of the things that the BLP W-H2-K or Pt-H2-KNOx-KOH does, is right on target. The Correa-Correa PAGD is essentially what you suggest. The 1930's work of C.G. (Guy) Suits (later V.P. of General Electric Research Labs we exchanged notes in the 1970's) with Hydrogen discharges and the earlier work of Lotz in Germany with discharges in Steam points in this direction. All you need to do is run the discharge in Hydrogen with a liquid Potassium self-healing cathode. Or you can go to high pressure Alkali lamps with Hydrogen added, or a Thermionic Converter with Hydrogen-Potassium and possibly get direct hydrino conversion, if not O/U at least enough to lower the required energy input whether solar, fossil fuel, or radioisotopes. I did the experiments with a low current, high voltage discharge to a pool of water saturated with LiOH in the mid-70's and got some surprising fast pressure excursions. Thats what precipitated the conversations with Guy Suits who had recently retired from G.E. The Hydrinos could explain the effect, sans fusion reactions-products. Might even work in standard low pressure fluorescent lamps with H2-Potassium added. See what you started, Frank? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 09:23:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17677; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:15:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:15:07 -0800 Message-ID: <34EF0BA8.4308 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:15:20 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Frank Stenger's BLP Stuff.] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"lf6XN2.0.7K4.Qkmxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16150 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: <34EF0A97.47D8 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:10:47 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" Subject: Re: Frank Stenger's BLP Stuff. References: <01bd3ee8$114dfb60$1b8cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > (snip) > I did the experiments with a low current, high voltage discharge to a pool > of water saturated with LiOH in the mid-70's and got some surprising fast > pressure excursions. Damn, Fred, you've had more experience than a New Orleans street walker! When you're in an outgoing mood, how about giving us an outline of your past escapades (cleaned up for Vortex, of course!). That way we could show you the respect you deserve. :-) Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 12:59:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18821; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:54:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:54:42 -0800 Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Frank Stenger's BLP Stuff Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:51:10 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd3f0a$70b0cde0$1b8cbfa8 default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7YS6R3.0._b4.Hypxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16151 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From what I can glean from the Correa-Correa PAGD there is an inference of pair production, but at the 1.02 Mev level of electron-positron pair production. There should be Light Positron-Electron Pairs produced from photons of n*1.02E6*0.00729729^n' energy, which should be at about 1.5 ev, 54.4 ev. and 3760 ev. For particles above 1.02E6 ev; ev = n*1.02E6/0.00729729^n'. The radius of these string-circle particles will be: 1.438E-9/ev meters. The BLP setup indicates that W + K = K+ + e- which can "hold" a LL- until a collision with H formed from H2 + Hot Tungsten: K* + H ---> Hydrino + K , The LL+ is captured by the e- releasing energy also,thus forming an Electrino. The energy given off during Electrino-Hydrino formation is the Larmor Synchrotron Radiation, which can actually create photons from a few ev to kev, some of which can form more LL Pairs at any of the three "resonance" points. This may be occurring in the PF cells in bursts and in the Ceti-Piantelli experiments as well as the Sonoluminescent phenomena. I'm heading for New Orleans, sometime Frank, only to look. Sheri North is getting along in years too. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 13:03:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19857; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:59:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:59:22 -0800 From: VCockeram aol.com Message-ID: <20e6c01e.34ef4007 aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:58:45 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: BLP stuff Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"zODak3.0.5s4.f0qxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16152 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-21 10:43:57 EST, you write: > 3. The use of a glow discharge against a boat containing K > metal (if desired, with a W mass nearby) in an H2 > environment at various pressures WE KNOW will produce > copious H, K, (W, if desired) atoms in the vicinity of > the boat. > Frank (impatient) Stenger Frank, I like that idea a lot and would also add trying both AC ond DC for the discharge power supply. Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 13:50:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26595; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:43:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:43:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34EF4A88.7A2D interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:43:36 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP stuff References: <20e6c01e.34ef4007 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LZ1-X.0.SV6.xfqxq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16153 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-02-21 10:43:57 EST, you write: > > > 3. The use of a glow discharge against a boat containing K > > metal (if desired, with a W mass nearby) in an H2 > > environment at various pressures WE KNOW will produce > > copious H, K, (W, if desired) atoms in the vicinity of > > the boat. > > Frank, > I like that idea a lot and would also add trying both AC ond DC for > the discharge power supply. > Why not, Vince. As long as Scott can get an accurate meter of the discharge power to use in the heat calculations. If a 1000 volt 1 ma discharge would do the job, this would represent a 1 watt heat input - I'll bet a much more efficient H generator than hot W. This might up the signal-to-noise ratio for the calorimeter too! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 16:41:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05252; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:38:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:38:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980221193544.008fe630 post.queensu.ca> X-Sender: simonb post.queensu.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:35:44 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Bart Simon Subject: Podkletnov in Wired Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ytuVm3.0.wH1.JEtxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16154 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, The March issue of "Wired" has an article on the gravity-reduction/negation stuff - the author (Charles Platt??) interviewed Podkletnov, Schnurer and Noever (brief mention of CF as bogus but what can you do). Interesting story for undead science fans, I just wish the author could have been a bit more thoughtful. Even still it made me think that "Wired" might be an interesting venue for an article on cold fusion since it has a huge circulation. cheers, Bart ===================================================== Bart Simon simonb post.queensu.ca Dept. of Sociology http://post.queensu.ca/~simonb/ Queen's University Kingston, Ontario phone: 613-545-6000 x7152 K7L-3N6 fax: 613-545-2871 ===================================================== From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 21 16:46:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05727; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:41:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:41:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34EF755D.410B loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:46:21 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little's experience References: <199802201744_MC2-3418-444A compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iACBv1.0.JP1.3Htxq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16155 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > > Scott Little is eminently qualified to talk about calorimetry based on his > experience. But calorimetry and cold fusion are two different subjects. Scott > knows how to build the piano (the calorimeter). He is not qualified to play > Beethoven at Carnegie Hall. CF is what you do with the calorimeter, with > materials that you select, prepare and electrolyze. That's the hard part. It > calls for involved electrochemical knowledge and techniques described in > papers like this one by Enyo from 1972: "Change of mechanism of the > hydrogen-electrode reaction with overpotential -- part 1. Distribution of the > reaction affinity among constituent steps." Master that, and then tell us > about your experience. Scott Little can critique CF on the same basis I do, > based on book learning, conferences, visits to people's laboratories, etc., > not experience. > > Jed, I think Scott deserves a lot more credit than this. He has tried to replicate many different supposedly robust experiments, but all have come up blank. He has put in many hours of sweat and toil trying to replicate these experiments in the lab. But maybe I see Scott's role in a different way. To many, when he successfully replicates an experiment, it will signify moving on to a new stage of CF development. It will show that an experiment is sufficiently robust that many others might think about trying it. At the moment, it is tough to know which experiment to replicate, and the low odds of success will discourage most from even trying. To use a different analogy than your piano example, I think of the field like a cheap Sci-Fi movie. The first stage is when a handful of scientists are convinced that a meteor/monster/alien/earthquake/hurricane/mutant is a real threat, but their screams are ignored by everyone else. The second stage is when some big event convinces people that the phenomenon is real, and everyone begins to prepare for the inevitable. With CF, I feel like we have been stuck in stage one for the past 9 years. Maybe FrankenScott will finally convince everyone that the field is alive. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 14:27:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26871; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:19:57 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:19:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <34EC5B93.41AD3FDC verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:19:31 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: 19 Feb Nature summary on Aharonov-Bohm effect Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GbuzW.0.lZ6.AIAyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16156 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This from this week www.nature.com. I post the summary because a cumbersome registration is required for the access. A-B effect is getting very popular this year. Regards, hamdi ucar [Contents] [News and Views] 19 February 1998 Summaries of some of this week's stories Magneto-electric Aharonov-Bohm effect in metal rings The quantum-mechanical phase of the wavefunction of an electron can be changed by electromagnetic potentials, as was predicted by Aharonov and Bohm in 1959. Experiments on propagating electron waves in vacuum have revealed both the magnetic and electrostatic Aharonov-Bohm effect. Surprisingly, the magnetic effect was also observed in micrometre-sized metal rings, demonstrating that electrons keep their phase coherence in such samples despite their diffusive motion. The search for the electrostatic contribution to the electron phase in these metal rings, was hindered by the high conductivity of metal, which makes it difficult to apply a well defined voltage difference across the ring. Here the authors report measurements of quantum interference of electrons in metal rings that are interrupted by two small tunnel junctions. In these systems, a well defined voltage difference between the two parts of the ring can be applied. Using these rings they simultaneously explore the influence of magnetic and electrostatic potentials on the Aharonov-Bohm quantum-interference effect, and they demonstrate that these two potentials play interchangeable roles. A van Oudenaarden, M H Devoret, Yu V Nazarov & J E Mooij Magneto-electric Aharanov-Bohm effect in metal rings (Letter to Nature) Nature 391, 768 (1998) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 17:25:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19861; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:22:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:22:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000501bd3ff8$ec0790c0$568cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Light Lepton Electrinos-Hydrinos vs Mills' Theory Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:17:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q2ubC1.0.Es4.1zCyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16157 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Larmor Synchrotron radiation, W = 0.66*k*q^2*a^2/c^3 (a = v^2/R)is emitted when an electron accelerates,"falls" closer to a nucleus to a quantized non-radiating (ZPE supported?)orbit of potential V = ke/R and energy W = k*q^2/R. k = 1/4(pi)eo. This would indicate that the energy has to be divided between potential and orbital-kinetic. Thus for a regular electron requiring more than the potential energy to compensate for relativistic mass increase. On the other hand for the Light Leptons they would gain relativistic mass Mrel = Mo[(q*V/Mo*c^2)+1]as they fall though potential V and limit out at a relativistic mass at the most equal to the rest mass of the regular electron. There is an interesting similarity between quantized orbital states and the predicted particle pair progenitor photon energy w = n*1.02E6*alpha^n' (n'= 0,1,2,3,etc.) (1.5 ev, 54.4 ev, and 7444 ev) for pairs lighter than the electron-positron and n*1.02E6/alpha^n' which matches many of the observed particles heavier than the electrons-positrons. Which is it going to be? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 17:34:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25915; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:31:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:31:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980222211533.00533ba0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:15:37 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: 19 Feb Nature summary on Aharonov-Bohm effect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mzwao.0.eK6.46Dyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16158 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:19 PM 2/19/98 +0300, you wrote: >This from this week www.nature.com. I post the summary because a cumbersome registration is required for the access. A-B effect is getting very popular this year. > >Regards, >hamdi ucar > Thanks. I bothered to register; but all that was present was the summary. Oh well. Now I'll be spammed into oblivion... The things we do for science :^) Anyone out there subscribe and be willing to give us a cap? This sounds like a nice sensor design. KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 18:40:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03088; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:37:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:37:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <01BD4050.3A311B20 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp> From: Melvin Miles To: "'Vortex'" Subject: HANSEN/CONFIDENTIAL FILE Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:43:09 +-900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id SAA03043 Resent-Message-ID: <"4Yh5z.0.8m.q3Eyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16159 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: E-mail 02/23/98 To Vortex: I never expected Hansen/Murray to publicize my job application to BYU. I certainly thought this was confidential information. I am not sure why Lee Hansen wanted to place my recent letters in my application file except, I guess, to teach me a lesson abo ut criticizing BYU professors. I do not believe Lee Hansen's explanation for this episode any more than I believe his anti-cold fusion publications. I did not have an application on file at BYU until a few months ago (October 31, 1997). I graduated from BYU over 35 years ago (1962). Therefore, it certainly was not "common knowledge" that I had a file with the department! I hope that this distribution of confidential information by Hansen/Murray will not affect my position with the Navy when I return to the U.S. I already have enough problems with my supervisors there due to my interest in cold fusion. For the past two y ears, they have not allowed me to work on cold fusion or even to attend meetings relating to this topic. This is basically why I am now in Japan. My Navy support for cold fusion ended shortly after the J. Phys. Chem. publication (1995) by Jones/Hansen c riticizing my work. Dr. Melvin H. Miles From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Feb 22 23:29:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03668; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:17:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:17:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bd402a$cf0d4780$238cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Quantum Electrodynamics and Pair Production. Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:01:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"xq3Hh.0.Ev.cAIyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16160 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fact Per QED: "A photon whether Real or Virtual may spontaneously create an electron-positron pair, so long as the limits imposed by the uncertainty principle are satisfied." The virtual photon may exist by the mere interaction of charges; dx <= c*dt or dE = hbar/dt. Interpretation based on those conditions imply that a fluid moving over a surface where surface charges are involved could cause the creation of Lepton Pairs and subsequent Electrino-Hydrino production, and energy release. Sound familiar? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 04:26:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04634; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 04:24:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 04:24:05 -0800 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:22:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: update, acrylic acid Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8ZRKM2.0.J81.YfMyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16161 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vo, still having trouble with achieving high molecular weight of the polyelectrolyte. I believed that scavengers were terminating the free radicals, such as metal ions (I was using tap water); changed to ultra pure water - no difference. I believe that the elevated temp. was causing termination on water molecules. So rather than use Zn Acrylate at high temp and let it autopolymerise, I used a rather nasty free radical initiator which I have to be very careful with, otherwise I might die and that would be very sad (go on laugh you b*stards!) This didn't work. I believe that it is the Zn Ac self radicalisig that is generating too many radicals by the heat and lighting conditions. So I'm going to use acrylic acid (had no joy with Na salt for some reason). This stuff is truely foul - lachrimator and prone to explosive self polym. if its initiator is taken away. May have to go to the experts for proper facilities. There are the bold, there are the old, but no old bold. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 05:46:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16509; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:45:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:45:03 -0800 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:39:07 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: update, acrylic acid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"p-ppl.0.k14.TrNyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16162 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Remi, There are acrylics used in the optical and medical industry which which polymerize on exposure to UV radiation. Call on Dow, GE, Monsanto, BASF ... or any of the other biggies, if you get a good tech, and they DON'T make it they will often tell you who does. J On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Remi Cornwall wrote: > Vo, > > still having trouble with achieving high molecular weight of the > polyelectrolyte. I believed that scavengers were terminating the free > radicals, such as metal ions (I was using tap water); changed to ultra > pure water - no difference. > > I believe that the elevated temp. was causing termination on water > molecules. So rather than use Zn Acrylate at high temp and let it > autopolymerise, I used a rather nasty free radical initiator which I have > to be very careful with, otherwise I might die and that would be very sad > (go on laugh you b*stards!) This didn't work. > > I believe that it is the Zn Ac self radicalisig that is generating too > many radicals by the heat and lighting conditions. So I'm going to use > acrylic acid (had no joy with Na salt for some reason). This stuff is > truely foul - lachrimator and prone to explosive self polym. if its > initiator is taken away. May have to go to the experts for proper > facilities. There are the bold, there are the old, but no old bold. > > Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 09:45:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03089; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:40:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:40:58 -0800 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:40:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Remi Cornwall To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: update, acrylic acid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4_yo_1.0.Bm.fIRyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16163 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Thanks John, > Dear Remi, > > There are acrylics used in the optical and medical industry which > which polymerize on exposure to UV radiation. > > Call on Dow, GE, Monsanto, BASF ... or any of the other biggies, > if you get a good tech, and they DON'T make it they will often tell you > who does. > Yes, medical uses, I've got contacts at London School of Pharmacy. Terrific place, excellent buzz about. Pharmacy is very multi-displinary (phys, chem, math, eng, med) many people there are doing more than a little work related to pharmacy 'cos there's so much equipment and money swimming around. That's how I like my Science, well funded and eclectic! (not just one gargantuan approach swallowing all the funds). I had a look at some of your webpages about quantum gravity. I really think you guys are onto something BIG. We'll probably see the long awaited GUT coming from your direction, why? 'cos its backed up with real, macroscopic and repeatable experimental data, not transient blips in a detector. (Oh shoot! More polictics!) By the way, sort of related to anti-gravity (from the aerodynamics point of view) what happened to that Russian chap who somehow used microwaves to render supersonic flight much easier? I could do a search on New Scientist to get the article - about 3-4 years ago. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 16:48:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27856; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:45:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:45:53 -0800 Message-Id: <01BD4109.F495A1C0 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp> From: Melvin Miles To: "'Vortex'" Subject: MILES/BYU SEMINAR Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:52:43 +-900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA27798 Resent-Message-ID: <"6a0x7.0.3p6.-WXyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16164 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: e-mail 02/23/98 To Vortex: I readily accept Dr. Jones' request for me to substantiate my claims of his scientific distortions and outright dishonesty and will have this ready in a few days. Today, I simply want to correct his statements about my BYU seminar. Dr. Jones either has a poor memory or he is once again distorting the facts. This is an important point, because if he distorts the facts about my seminar, then why should anyone belie ve anything else that he has to say. I remember the details of that seminar very clearly. Dr. Doug Bennion (now deceased - airplane crash) flew his private plane to St. George, Utah where I was visiting relatives and flew both me and my daughter to Provo, Utah. We met Steve Jones, Lee Hans en and others at lunch on the BYU campus. My seminar began shortly after lunch. After about one hour, I was concerned that I was only about a third of the way through my seminar due to the many questions. I noticed that some people were leaving since t hey had only expected a one-hour seminar. This then left me alone with the Jones gang and their numerous probing questions. I had nothing to hide and tried to answer each question. I had no idea that my answers would later be used in a critic of my wor k. It took nearly three hours for me to complete this one-hour seminar. In retrospect, this seemed more like an inquisition than a seminar. It bothered me that the questions were probing for mistakes rather than for an understanding of my experiments. We only parted cordially because I was hiding my true feelings about this bad experience. Furthermore, my friend, Doug Bennion of BYU was with me. I remember the time well, because I was concerned about Doug Bennion flying my daughter and I back to St. George, Utah. We had to leave for the airport immediately and left Provo at about 5 p.m. Dr. Melvin H. Miles From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 06:03:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24241; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:02:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:02:26 -0800 Message-ID: <001201bd412c$73cfb300$5f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Wet Friction Hydrinolater Experiment Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:59:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Csxjb2.0.ew5.nBjyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16165 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Stuff Needed Drill press with set RPMs. Insulated cup set on a ratable platform Flat drill bit or a disk Block of metal or ceramic (a rock) Torque linkage with suitable electrical transducer for torque readout. Water and a thermometer Rotate drill bit or disk against the ratable cup hooked to the torque-measuring linkage. Calculate energy input as the product of torque and revs/minute. Measure heat into the cup-bit-rock-water. The wet friction may cause Hydrino formation and O/U heat release. Or a lot of Noise. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 09:48:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25736; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:44:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980224174236.0069fdf4 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:42:36 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: A reminder Resent-Message-ID: <"rOvhU.0.0I6.ZRmyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16166 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians, To those who support Bill Beaty's maintainence of Vortex-L, it is a little past time to contribute to that support. I just reminded myself this morning that it is already close to the third month of the year and I forgot to contribute. Thank you Bill Beaty, Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 13:30:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06447; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34F36539.376B bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:26:33 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: A reminder References: <1.5.4.32.19980224174236.0069fdf4 freeway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tnGUS2.0.da1.ggpyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16167 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Edwin Strojny wrote: > > Vortexians, > > To those who support Bill Beaty's maintainence of Vortex-L, it is a little > past time to contribute to that support. I just reminded myself this > morning that it is already close to the third month of the year and I forgot > to contribute. > > Thank you Bill Beaty, > > Ed Strojny Thanks, Ed. Best damn $12 I ever spent. Could you post the address? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 13:51:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13890; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:48:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:48:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:48:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802242148.NAA10348 pop1.ucdavis.edu> X-Sender: szdanq peseta.ucdavis.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dan Quickert Subject: Re: A reminder Resent-Message-ID: <"ehEHH1.0.mO3.n0qyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16168 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry Blanton wrote: >Thanks, Ed. Best damn $12 I ever spent. Could you post the address? from his website self-description page (http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/billb.html): Bill Beaty 7040 22nd Ave NW Seattle, WA 98117 -Dan Quickert From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 17:54:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08783; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:49:25 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:49:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <01BD41DB.C8B6AC20 miles.nhelab.iae.or.jp> From: Melvin Miles To: "'Vortex'" Subject: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:39 +-900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id RAA08724 Resent-Message-ID: <"O9WnP3.0.592.XYtyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16169 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: E-mail 02/25/98 To Vortex: I could readily use the published critic of my work by Jones and Hansen (J. Phys. Chem., Vol. 99, pp. 6966-72, 1995) for examples that document my claims of their scientific distortions and outright dishonesty, but I still hope to have my reply published by that Journal. Hence I will use the recent publication by Jones, Hansen et. al, "An Assessment of Claims of 'Excess Heat' in Cold Fusion Calorimetry", in Thermochimica Acta, Vol. 297, pp. 7-15, 1997. False Statement #1 (Abstract) "Claims of excess heat ---- are largely based on use of ---- calorimeters with single-point temperature sensors." Jones and Hansen heard my seminar, asked many questions, and published a detailed critic of my work, hence they obviously know that I used two thermistors in my calorimeter. Is it then not dishonest of Jones and Hansen to make this statement concerning s ingle-point temperature sensors? I have also worked with Fleischmann / Pons cells here at NHE. Their calorimeters also use two thermistors in each cell. These two thermistors are located at completely different positions, yet they give almost identical results. False Statement #2 (Abstract) "Improper or incomplete calibration is a probable cause for many claims of 'excess heat'----." There are no better calibrations than the many electrolysis experiments that produce no excess heat. The chemical and electrical heating calibration by Jones and Hansen do not reproduce the effect of the electrolysis gases leaving the cell or the change with time of the electrolyte volume during actual electrolysis. These effects must be considered in the calorimetric equations. False Statement #3 (Introduction) "Claims of nuclear products ---- have largely been discredited." The citing of their own two publications along with the notorious ERAB report in 1989 does not justify Jones/Hansen to make this statement. The ERAB report was published before I reported any evidence for helium-4. In fact, this report uses my early wor k to support arguments for no cold fusion effects. False Statement #4 (Introduction) "Many claims of 'excess heat' ---- were the results of assuming 100% Faradaic efficiency---." The studies by Jones et. al were done at very low current densities (0.5 to 4 mA/cm2) where recombination effects are much more likely. Why not toss in platinum or palladium powder to show ever larger recombination effects? However, these are not the co nditions for cold fusion experiments that require high current densities of 100mA/cm2 or larger. Fleischmann, Pons et. al made it very clear in their 1990 publication (J. Electroanal. Chem., Vol. 287, pp. 293-348, 1990) that a threshold current density o f 100 mA/cm2 is required for the excess heat effect. Is it not dishonest of Jones to perform experiments in the wrong ballpark (low current densities) and then extrapolate these results to cold fusion experiments? F. G. Will has clearly shown the errors of Jones et. al with respect to low Faradaic efficiencies (recombination) when they extrapolate their low current results to the high currents of cold fusion experiments. This is found in J. Electroanal. Chem., Vol . 426, pp. 177-184, 1997. Cold fusion scientists are not stupid. Recombination is the first thing we check before reporting excess heat. I keep a complete record of D2O additions in every experiment, and always find that the D2O consumption is in accord with Faraday's Law under normal conditions. (solid palladium rods are used that are kept completely submerged in the D2O. All lead wires are covered with shrink Teflon). In fact, there is always a slightly larger loss of D2O than calculated by Faraday's Law due to the evaporati ve loss of heavy water. Low Faradaic efficiencies (recombination) would result in less heavy water consumption than expected. False Statement #5 (Introduction) "EPRI withheld further support after being informed of the results of the work done at low power." Mike McKubre has recently commented on this false statement. I find this to be a strange statement to place in a scientific paper. I really don't know any details but let me guess. Jones et. al were working at very low current densities (low power) where recombination is much more likely despite the fact that cold fusion studies require high currents. EPRI then realized that Jones et. al were designing experiments to support their own agenda that excess heat is due to errors - rather than doing real research with an open mind. I would have also withheld further support under those conditions. False Statement #6 (Introduction) "Fig. 1 A. Schematic of Typical 'Cold Fusion' Calorimeter." Jones et. al depict a short, fat cell design with a single thermometer. This design is not used by anybody in cold fusion that I know. This short and fat "typical" cell is ridiculous and makes cold fusion experimenters appear incompetent. Mixing would c ertainly be a serious problem with such a design. My calorimeter design looks nothing like this, neither does the design of Fleischmann and Pons. Is it not dishonest of Jones to call this a "typical cold fusion calorimeter"? I could go on but Fig. 1 A alone proves my point. Who were the reviewers of this paper? Why didn't they do their job and check the facts? It is really a scientific shame that the anti-cold fusion papers by Jones et. al are so readily accepted by J. Phys. Chem. and Thermochimica Acta. Dr. Melvin H. Miles From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 19:46:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA31407; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:40:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:40:31 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:39:50 +0000 Message-ID: <19980225033940.AAB2765 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"wUVUw1.0.Rg7.jAvyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16170 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dr. Miles, Thank you for your dispassionate defense of your work. While Jed Rothwell has presented the same information, it is good to get it from the source. It is, as you wrote, a 'scientific shame' that a defense on such basic points is made necessary by the failure of the reviewers to treat the science as the significant event. They remain apparently unpersuaded by fact, from what has been revealed on Vortex. Might we see a retort from Jones, Hansen or the editors of the Journal of Physical Chemistry? Not likely! Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 20:21:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02867; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:17:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:17:59 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: <6f6cdc35.34f39b00 aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:15:13 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com, 76570.2270@compuserve.com, RVargo1062@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Mickferson UFO story Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"HwxwV3.0.ii.rjvyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16171 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I saw the video of the Mickfearson UFO abduction on TV last night...www.org.com. This was supposedly a home move shot by the family as it was being abducted. The family was never heard from since and the video was found later. Several comments: Reasons I believe it was fake: .................................................................. 1. The UFO's fleld turned the gas stove on. Rule 1 the laws of physics are invariant. There is no way gas could leak past a closed mechanical valve in any frame of reference without destroying or opening the valve. The woman closed the valve and the stove stayed on. Not likely. 2. The field of the UFO turned the TV on. It was running, the video showed the rolling vertical hold frames. In order to do this the UFO would have had to induce a 60 hz 120VAC field in the power line. Most probably any transient would be of the wrong frequency and voltage and would have destroyed (not turned on) the TV. 3. The transformer blew on the pole. I saw a few transformers blow in my time. There is usually an inrush of current that results in a quick explosion or boof. The disconnects quickly open and the event is over. The transformer that blew in the show looked more like small fireworks. The event lasted to long was to small.. It was not the quick major single boof that I would expect. 4. It was to much, overdone, with to many events. Why didn't they all just run for it? If an alien was in my attic I would be outside making tracks. .................................................................... Reasons I believe the event could be real: 1. The device the alien was employing to dissect the cow looked like the beam of a neon helium laser. It looked like a red laser beam. When it was shot at the camera I overloaded the cammera as an intense light would do. I have a laser of this type so I know how they act. Red sparks were coming off of the cow where the laser hit. The power of the lasor would have to be many Kilowatts to make sparks like this. I don't know of any held units exist in this power range. Could you even purchase such a unit to make a film? 2. I have a friend Bernie who told me the same kind of strange story about 20 years ago. I don't know what to make of it. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 21:02:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09118; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F3A3A9.F36E3F48 ihug.co.nz> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:52:58 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story References: <6f6cdc35.34f39b00 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WBg1x.0.LE2.oFwyq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16172 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'll give you some much better reasons why it is a fake (other than the fact that there is no other alien abduction claim like it) http://www.duluthnews.com/dnt/news/alien3.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~tvmedia/credits.html http://home.earthlink.net/~tvmedia/ http://exosci.com/ufo/discuss/messages/8555.html It was faked by UPN! It's "McPhersons" not "Mickfearson" John Berry FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > I saw the video of the Mickfearson UFO abduction on TV last > night...www.org.com. > This was supposedly a home move shot by the family as it was being abducted. > The family was never heard from since and the video was found later. > > Several comments: > > Reasons I believe it was fake: > .................................................................. > > 1. The UFO's fleld turned the gas stove on. Rule 1 the laws of physics are > invariant. There is no way gas could leak past a closed mechanical valve in > any frame of reference without destroying or opening the valve. The woman > closed the valve and the stove stayed on. Not likely. > > 2. The field of the UFO turned the TV on. It was running, the video showed > the rolling vertical hold frames. In order to do this the UFO would have had > to induce a 60 hz 120VAC field in the power line. Most probably any transient > would be of the wrong frequency and voltage and would have destroyed (not > turned on) the TV. > > 3. The transformer blew on the pole. I saw a few transformers blow in my > time. There is usually an inrush of current that results in a quick explosion > or boof. The disconnects quickly open and the event is over. The transformer > that blew in the show looked more like small fireworks. The event lasted to > long was to small.. It was not the quick major single boof that I would > expect. > > 4. It was to much, overdone, with to many events. Why didn't they all just > run for it? If an alien was in my attic I would be outside making tracks. > .................................................................... > > Reasons I believe the event could be real: > > 1. The device the alien was employing to dissect the cow looked like the beam > of a neon helium laser. It looked like a red laser beam. When it was shot at > the camera I overloaded the cammera as an intense light would do. I have a > laser of this type so I know how they act. Red sparks were coming off of the > cow where the laser hit. The power of the lasor would have to be many > Kilowatts to make sparks like this. I don't know of any held units exist in > this power range. Could you even purchase such a unit to make a film? > > 2. I have a friend Bernie who told me the same kind of strange story about 20 > years ago. I don't know what to make of it. > > Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Feb 24 22:08:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA31676; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:04:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:04:26 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01bd41b2$991c6140$488cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: LLs-Electrios-Hydrinos in Flames? Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:59:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"xax0S3.0.jk7.dHxyq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16173 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The measurement of the conductivity of flames dates back to the 1500s-1600s. Arrhenius conducted experiments using "salts" in the 1890s. The conductivity varied from 5E-7 mhos/cm to 2.0E-4 mhos/cm with alcohol at 2050 K and 7.6E14 Na atoms/cm^3. According to Arrhenius: 1, All salts of the same metal in equivalent concentrations conduct current equally well,indicating a common negative carrier independent of the anion. LL-? 2,The conductivity of a given salt is proportional to the square root of the concentration of the salt used. The conduction is ascribed to the ionization of the alkali metals used, ie., Na, K, Rb, etc. with possible enhancement from Mg, Ca, and Ba salts. The temperature dependence is thought to confirm to the Saha Equation: Log10 (ni/no)= -5040*vi/T + 3/2 Log10T+ 15.385 where ni is the number of ions and vi is the ionization potential, T = deg K. Low temperature combustion of a hydrogenous material such as a candle (CxHy)without any alkali salts present? Biomass contains potassium and calcium and maybe Sr90. :-) Combustion of Hydrogen or Brown's Gas as opposed to non-hydrogenous gases like CO, or metal powders like Al or Mg? MHD combustion generators tapping into Hydrino energy? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 04:48:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21122; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 04:46:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 04:46:30 -0800 Message-ID: <004401bd41ea$ffe089a0$488cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Light Leptons, Electrinos-Hydrinos and Hot Fusion Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:42:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"t2Xu32.0.s95.aA1zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16174 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It doesn't require much stretch of the imagination to see how the "squeeze-heat" from a fission trigger with pair production from Real or Virtual photons in a thermonuclear device facilitates "quantum mechanical tunneling" and an explosive release of energy,does it? The difference between CF and HF is only a matter of degree? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 06:04:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02164; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:00:17 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:00:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980225135752.27222.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: Anton Rager Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ng28R1.0.QX.ZF2zq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16175 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello All, While this is _not_ vortex related, I think a comment needs to be made. First let me make it clear -- I am not a UFO buff, nor am I an advocate for any of the claims by UFO folks. I have never seen flying objects that I cannot identify, nor have I been visited by otherworldly entities. I am not a 'believer'. I am not a sceptic. I have also not seen the video described..... I do however think that Frank's analysis of this off-topic event sheds some light onto how some of us approach/analyze events........think about this analysis and apply it to the CF, FE, or other 'fringe' science endeavors. Seems like Frank's reaction is very similar to the same reaction that 'traditional science' beleivers give to claims from the 'alternative science ' researchers. Frank -- your analysis of the film is really biased to our understanding of physical properties and known technologies. A - Why would an alien society also have the same type of lasers that you do? I'd be suprised if they could even 'see' in the same spectrums that we do. The fact that lasers in that w/l are easily obtained would actually make me lean towards the fake scenario. B - Transformer blowing -- you are thinking only of currently known/accepted theories of energy/matter interaction......What would a huge scalar burst do to a transformer.........Or other energy forms for that matter. C - TV on/off -- see above. Same idea. Perhaps something other than 60hz power could be at work. D - Stove lighting......not sure I can explain it either, but another culture -- that has the technology to visit our tiny little rock from somewhere else in the universe....that probably has some sort of anti-g and advanced power technology would probably have many things that we just can't grasp. C - Those 'laws' of physics you refer to -- they are only localized rules that we have observed in fixed conditions.....If I had an anti-G device....I bet I could really 'break' those 'laws'......... Not trying to insult you Frank -- just an observation. == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 06:06:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02166; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:03:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:03:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34F42457.4B3DE390 compassnet.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:01:59 -0600 From: "R. Stiffler" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story References: <6f6cdc35.34f39b00 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z8OE7.0.mX.8J2zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16176 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > I saw the video of the Mickfearson UFO abduction on TV last > night...www.org.com. > > Several comments: > > Reasons I believe it was fake: > .................................................................. Did you also notice how the mother never let go of her ever filling glass of wine ? A number of times she was outside of the home and on one shot the glass was almost empty, the next shot showed its near full again. Where was she getting the refills ? > 2. The field of the UFO turned the TV on. It was running, the video showed This is very unlikely even if the induced field were 60hz. We are not talking about a field of directional intensity but rather a somewhat consistent density per meter and that does not conform well to transformer action. Now in the newer TV's that uses direct AC conversion in the power supplies I really doubt this as it would destroy components at once. > 3. The transformer blew on the pole. I saw a few transformers blow in my > time. There is usually an inrush of current that results in a quick explosion Don't forget what the transformer is filled with and what happens during a catastrophic explosion in which the case is ruptured. I have seen continued arcing until all connections ar burned open, seconds, and continued in a case where the current would not blow the fuse and the pole was wet. In this case small fires and some small arcs can be seen, but as you stated not the same as here. > 4. It was to much, overdone, with to many events. Why didn't they all just > run for it? If an alien was in my attic I would be outside making tracks. > A continued viewing and close observation of the actors will show some do not react until queued. In fact about the second time through on viewing you see clearly how this is being done and they wait up to two or more seconds to react. Also note some camera movement during the possible queue periods. This is key (camera movement) boy this guy was hooked on documentation. The laser, guess I need to see some multi kwatt units to see how they react with a water base cow. If a small laser tends to vaporize the flesh, then what is the source of the sparks? Also it is very hard on 2D to see angles, but does not the angle of the sparks seem strange in respect to the beam of light? It is possible in America for individuals to make and keep for long periods of time, new identities (some for life), but it is very uncommon and extremely difficult for whole families to do so, UNLESS uncle has something to do with it. For whatever reason how better to cover a whole family dropping out of sight than the alien thing, then throw in a small amount of disbelief to indicated that maybe they are really hiding from something. The disbelief being the crudness that this was all done with. When one thinks how well uncle could have done it, does it not make sense to make it look like a hoax? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 06:13:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03628; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:10:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:10:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34F425ED.D82C26F1 compassnet.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:08:45 -0600 From: "R. Stiffler" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story References: <6f6cdc35.34f39b00 aol.com> <34F3A3A9.F36E3F48@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UmeZ_1.0.bu.SP2zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16177 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Berry wrote: > I'll give you some much better reasons why it is a fake (other than the fact that > there is no other alien abduction claim like it) > > http://www.duluthnews.com/dnt/news/alien3.htm > http://home.earthlink.net/~tvmedia/credits.html > http://home.earthlink.net/~tvmedia/ > http://exosci.com/ufo/discuss/messages/8555.html > > It was faked by UPN! > > It's "McPhersons" not "Mickfearson" > Or is the last laugh on UPN, were they mislead? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 06:53:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09385; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:49:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:49:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980225213719.006d9ef0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:37:19 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story In-Reply-To: <19980225135752.27222.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Lf2y-1.0.PI2.Vz2zq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16178 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:57 AM 2/25/98 -0800, Anton Rager wrote: >Hello All, > >While this is _not_ vortex related, I think a comment needs to be made. > >First let me make it clear -- I am not a UFO buff, nor am I an >advocate for any of the claims by UFO folks. I have never seen flying >objects that I cannot identify, nor have I been visited by >otherworldly entities. I am not a 'believer'. I am not a sceptic. I >have also not seen the video described..... > >I do however think that Frank's analysis of this off-topic event sheds >some light onto how some of us approach/analyze events........think >about this analysis and apply it to the CF, FE, or other 'fringe' >science endeavors. Seems like Frank's reaction is very similar to the >same reaction that 'traditional science' beleivers give to claims from > the 'alternative science ' researchers. > Good point. The movie which Frank saw is a fake. It is obviously a fake. Unfortunately some of the people interviewed were "taken", and their credibility may suffer. Like some of the silly ZPE(vacuum) claims, and the unlikely (most charitable)o/u devices, the movie is not real. Cold fusion, muon, Pd/D2O, and Ni/H(various), on the other hand is real, and should be explored with science. Perhaps a little wisdom is in order. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 09:07:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01403; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:00:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:00:40 -0800 Message-ID: <34F4609C.443D bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:19:08 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story References: <3.0.1.32.19980225213719.006d9ef0 world.std.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ykiba2.0.YL.pu4zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16179 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The movie which Frank saw is a fake. Indeed! If you saw the credits at the end, it was a Dick Clark production; and, they even gave the names of the actors. The production was first shown a few weeks back and it enraged UFO researchers because there was no disclaimer given. Also, Stanton Friedman, et.al. were interviewed without being aware that their comments would be appended to this production. The director's original story portrayed an alleged incident in 1983 in Connecticut, far removed from Lake County, MN. The poor sheriff of the real Lake County has fended off tons of phone calls since. Anything for a buck, I guess. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 09:12:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02651; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:03:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:03:24 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:59:05 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802251201_MC2-349C-3F47 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Y4Jeg1.0.Df.Qx4zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16180 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Ed Wall writes: Dr. Miles, Thank you for your dispassionate defense of your work. While Jed Rothwell has presented the same information, it is good to get it from the source. Hear, hear. And I hope I have made it clear that *I* get this information from the source. (I would not want to take credit for it.) I do not have to pester Miles or Fleischmann often. Most of this information is in their papers, especially: M. Miles, B. Bush, D. Stilwell, "Calorimetric Principles and Problems in Measurements of Excess Power during Pd-D2O electrolysis," J. Physical Chemistry, 1994, 98, 1948-1952 I'd like to comment on some of the points Miles made. This is what I have explained to Murray: Recombination is the first thing we check before reporting excess heat. I keep a complete record of D2O additions in every experiment, and always find that the D2O consumption is in accord with Faraday's Law under normal conditions. (solid palladium rods are used that are kept completely submerged in the D2O. All lead wires are covered with shrink Teflon). In fact, there is always a slightly larger loss of D2O than calculated by Faraday's Law due to the evaporative loss of heavy water. This, as I said, is a reliable way to track recombination. Two other methods are: 1. Recombine and replace water, as McKubre, Mizuno, Shkedi and many others have done. 2. Measure the gas flow. Method 1 can be tricky and it sometimes introduces contamination. Method 2 requires highly precise, finicky and expensive instruments, because only minuscule quantities of water are lost per minute. You replace the water only once a day, so these minuscule losses add up to an easily measured quantity. Method 1 has an advantage that is sometimes overlooked. The cells are shown airtight for many days in high pressure leak tests. When electrolysis begins, the cathode absorbs a lot of hydrogen, but the anode does not absorb much oxygen, so free oxygen collects in the head space, which raises pressure. You measure the pressure to determine how much hydrogen has been absorbed and how high average loading is. This method is remarkably accurate. Some say it is better than measuring cathode resistivity. Miles lists important ways to prevent recombination: the cathode should be completely submerged, lead wires covered with Teflon. It is also important to mount the anode and cathode vertically side-by-side, rather than horizontally with one above the other. In CETI cells, hydrogen bubbles off the cathode directly onto the anode, where I expect much of it must recombine. This does not matter. It causes no harm and CETI computes excess energy conservatively, assuming 100% recombination. However, if you turn a CETI cell upside down or reverse the flow of electrolyte to carry oxygen to the anode beads, the thin film is destroyed within hours or days. The cells last for months normally, which proves that there is virtually no circulating gas. (Another reason to discount the "magic crystal hypothesis.") I mention this because I have seen skeptics deliberately place the cathode and anode horizontally in order to "prove" the recombination hypothesis. Steve Jones deliberately selected a test tube with the wrong shape, a power level a thousand times too low, and a temperature probe arrangement that nobody employs. The low power guarantees recombination and prevents mixing. These tests prove that when you deliberately set out to do the experiment wrong, it fails. This is not a revelation. It isn't even science. Jones did a caricature, not a replication. As Miles says, "why not toss in platinum or palladium powder to show ever larger recombination effects?" He is not exaggerating. The configuration and protocols selected by Jones are *every bit as preposterous* as tossing in platinum powder would be. From an electrochemist's point of view, the Jones experiment is like a flight test of an airplane with the wings removed, or a test of a computer software package after twenty randomly selected files are deleted. Jones deliberately sabotaged his own experiment with methods so blatant that even I saw through them instantly, although I have no training in electrochemistry. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 09:13:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05079; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:08:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:08:18 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:01:55 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Tom & Ray explain why things go wrong Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802251205_MC2-349C-6D89 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"u591o1.0.uE1.z_4zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16181 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Why do things sometimes go so terribly wrong that civilization itself teeters at the brink of destruction? The Tuchman - Tinsley - Rothwell theory has it that the driving force behind these periodic upheavals is stupidity. See B. Tuchman's classic study "The March of Folly - From Troy to Vietnam," (Alfred A. Knopf, 1984). Folly is the most potent force in human affairs. This quote from a "Car Talk" column is a wonderful example of small-scale folly. - Jed February 21, 1998 "Car Talk" column Light says 'Service car,' not 'Don't fix anything' Dear Tom and Ray: I was traveling in my 1994 Pontiac Trans Sport. Suddenly, the "Service Engine Soon" light came on. I drove about 10 minutes to the next exit, turned off the engine and waited. After a while, I turned the engine back on, and the light had gone off. But next time I drove on the highway, the same thing happened. I took it to Pontiac, and they say I need a new EGR valve for $250 plus another $200 labor. That sounded like a lot for a part I never heard of. So I looked it up one your Web site and found out what it is! Now the question is, do I have to fix it? I've been driving for weeks now with the light coming on. -- Michael Tom: I can tell from your letter that you're a complete and unmitigated cheapskate. And even though I support your frugality in general, Michael, I think you should spend the money and fix this problem. After all, the light says "Service Engine Soon." It doesn't say "Ignore This Light"' or "Don't Fix Anything," does it? Ray: The EGR valve is the exhaust gas recirculation valve. It takes a small amount of exhaust gas and feeds it back into the cylinders in ordeal to cool the fuel/air mixture. Cooling the mixture helps reduce engine pinging and cuts down only the engine's nitrous oxide emissions. And you may be disturbing the global economic balance. If you don't give the guy at Pontiac $450 to fix this, he won't go out and buy presents for his kids. Then the toy store will cut back its inventory, the U.S. trade deficit will balloon and the currencies in various Asian countries may struggle and collapse. Tom and Ray Magliozzi http://cartalk.com Jed's all time favorite Tom & Ray comment: It is a known fact that if you take apart a Volkswagen carburetor and put it back together, and you repeat that again enough times, eventually you will enough parts left over to assemble another carburetor. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 09:34:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18608; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:31:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:31:21 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:30:33 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: McPhersons Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"Tsj7p2.0.CY4.dL5zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16182 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you John Berry. I know my question was off topic but that show bothered me. I didn't see the credits. I didn't believe that Stan Freedman could be duped like that. Whow, this was presented like a television special. Someone should be given a beating for this. Last night I was awake thinking, "Who was holding the cammera as young McPherson was being pulled away by the alien?" You all on vortex know everything. Being on the vortex is better than having a crystal ball. Oh gosch, poor Stan Freedman was really sucked in. He said that "These kind of special effects could not be made with a 8 MM cammera. I agreed and ether the thing was real or a bigger production company was behind it. They really suckered Stan in. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 10:21:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23879; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:18:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:18:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:11:51 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] In defense of UFOs, SHC, cos Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E1F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Ueloj3.0.0r5.L16zq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16184 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Mitchell Swartz writes: Like some of the silly ZPE(vacuum) claims, and the unlikely (most charitable)o/u devices, the movie is not real. Cold fusion, muon, Pd/D2O, and Ni/H(various), on the other hand is real, and should be explored with science. Perhaps a little wisdom is in order. Wisdom, caution, and a sliding set of standards are called for. I did not see this movie so I cannot judge it. I have seen various documentaries about UFOs, spontaneous human combustion (SHC), sea serpents and various other weird phenomena. This sort of thing fascinates Arthur Clarke, although he is fed up with UFO claims. I enjoy episodes of his "Amazing World" television series. I think it is worth investigating these things, and speculating about them. I think these things "should be explored with science" (as Swartz puts it) even though science is inadequate to the task. It is poor tool, but we have no other. I find it peculiar that some scientists denigrate weird phenomena like SHC and sea serpents. They should be denigrating their own limitations! It isn't the sea serpent's fault that we seldom catch up with them. (By the way, based on the photos and videos of the rotting sea serpent that Japanese fishing boat crew hauled aboard, I think it is nearly certain that large, undiscovered creatures similar to extinct marine dinosaurs do exist. It is a terrible shame the Japanese sailors decided to chuck the thing overboard because it stank. They were such idiots they did not realize the specimen was worth more than a whole fleet of fishing boats.) A sliding set of values are called for because these claims cannot meet the rigorous level of proof we demand for ZPE or CF. You cannot recreate a UFO or SHC event in the laboratory under controlled conditions with instruments. You cannot calibrate in advance. You have no control over these phenomena. You can never tell where they will reoccur, or when. You can investigate them is by examining fragmentary evidence and eyewitness reports. This is most unsatisfactory. Perhaps it would better not to investigate them at all, at the risk of overlooking valuable knowledge. Other phenomena are beyond our control, but they reoccur at fairly predictable times and places, like earthquakes and hurricanes. Some phenomena frustrate us because we seldom catch the onset. Examples include tornados, supernova explosions, and heart attacks. Critical information may be lost in the first few seconds after onset before the instruments can be brought to bear. (Before the telescopes can be pointed to the supernova, or the EKG hooked to the patient). In cosmology, the study of the origin of the universe can never be observed or recreated, except partially in miniature. String theory deals with particles far beyond the limits of observation. Again, proof in these fields cannot be as rigorous as we might wish. But I think it would be a mistake to abandon them. Peculiar o/u devices like perpetual motion machines and Greg Watson's SMOT should, of course, be held to highest standards of proof. The term "scientific proof" can mean practically anything, at any level of confidence, depending on the field and the state of the art. It can mean McKubre's high sigma test data repeated 40 times. Or it might be one disputed smear in a data trace seen once after months of work. Or the Antarctic rock from Mars, or global warming. All of these things constitute "proof" to some people and utter bilge to others. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 10:21:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05094; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:16:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:16:31 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:12:03 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] T & R quote again Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E20 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"mMcDG2.0.TF1.w_5zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16183 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I left out a word here. That's a shame, 'cause it is such a hilarious comment. It was on the radio so I do not have the exact wording. I heard it while driving on Peachtree road and I laughed so hard I nearly drove off the road. - Jed Jed's all time favorite Tom & Ray comment: It is a known fact that if you take apart a Volkswagen carburetor and put it back together, and you repeat that again enough times, eventually you will have enough parts left over to assemble another carburetor. - Tom and Ray Magliozzi From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 10:46:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27292; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:36:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:36:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:30:42 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS erratum Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802251334_MC2-34AB-6A62 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"zP0pb.0.Hg6.yI6zq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16185 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I wrote: However, if you turn a CETI cell upside down or reverse the flow of electrolyte to carry oxygen to the anode beads . . . . . . should be cathode beads. I heard that with some early CETI fragile thin films, oxidation destroyed the beads within minutes when the flow was reversed. Also, I said I expect that much of the hydrogen is recombined. On the other hand much of it is not, because you can see many bubbles emerging in the flow of water. The free gas bleeds off at a gas splitter (gas trap). Cravens often runs with a gas flowmeter at the gas splitter outlet. He must know out how much recombination occurs. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 12:25:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25035; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:09:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199802252009.PAA28796 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Infiltrate the USPTO! Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 15:10:37 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA24971 Resent-Message-ID: <"7US3h3.0._66.Bg7zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16186 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The job notice below was sent to me by USPTO staffer, Tom Valone. He gave me permission to post this electronically. Sincerely, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com NOTICE: JOB OPPORTUNITY U S. Patent & Trademark Office Hiring 600! All able-bodied Infnite Energy technologists are invited to infiltrate the U.S. PTO immediately. Due-to the expansion into Industrial Sectors, the Patent Office needs to hire at least 600 engineers, physicists, and computer scientists in the next few mont hs (possibly other disciplines also) as Patent Examiners. The Office has a new motto: "Help Our Customers Get Patents.² All training and moving expenses are covered. Even the starting salary has been increased to attract all of the new employees needed: G S 7, Step 10 = $39,700 for the first year with step increases each year and grade advances based upon performance. In addition, a bonus of 10% ($3970) is being paid to any Electrical/Electronic Engineer (EE degree) Computer Scientist (CS degree) hired! Being at the Patent Office as an insider for almost two years I, Tom Valone, invite those who believe in the philosophy expounded by Tesla, Moray, etc. to join me. Together we can make policy changes happen slowty within the system. Our goal is to help ob tain patent protection for new emerging technology that may be regarded as "inoperable² by those without your backgound. Only a bachelor¹s degree is needed! In addition, our goal is to research existing records of energy and propulsion technology which ha ve been sitting unrecognized in the stacks and abandoned cases. (As an insider, you will have the privilege to examine any present or past patent application, such as Newman's, Moray¹s, Puharich's, etc., within security limits, even if it is an abandoned case.) Futhermore, you will have at your desk, the most advenced search software available which allows an examiner to use ANY key word or phrase to find lists of patents and look at their images instantly. The Patent Library is as well-stocked as most unversit y libraries and journal-search, services (Dialog, etc) are available. You are also allowed to compile collections of your favorite patents as you learn The actual examing that you do is not under any quota for the first year! All training in patent proced ure is during work hours, at the Patent Academy, and most examiners receive their own private office. Also, two Fitness Centers are available, one of which has a swimming pool. Lastly, if you speak English as your first language, you will have a hiring advantage over many applicants. (All patent applications are in English of course.) However, many have been hired who do not have a great command of English since the Patent Offi ce needs examiners. You may send your application to the Human Resources Dept. at the Patent and Trademark Office, Washington, DC 20231 or you may call them at 703-305-8231. Also, if you like, many insiders like myself are able to hand-carry resumes to ou r supervisors. Therefore, I will aIso accept resumes sent to Integrity Research Institute, 1422 K Street NW, Suite 204, Washington, DC 20005 and pass them on to my PTO supervisor or thc appropriate PTO art unit supervisor if possible. Retirement, health i nsurance, and a govcrnment assisted thrift savings plan are some of the benefits. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 13:15:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08678; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:02:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:02:46 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bd4230$4bec9060$2e8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: C.G. Suits' Hydrogen Arc Article 1939 Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:58:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"lyx2J2.0.U72.qR8zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16187 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Suits ran the hydrogen discharges between carbon and tungsten electrodes(Journal of Applied Physics Vol 10, pgs 203, and 648-650 Sept., 1939). "With pure carbon electrodes and 1,500 volts D.C. it was impossible to obtain electrical data satisfactory for measurement purposes in the 1-10 ampere range at pressures above atmospheric. At one atmosphere the hydrogen arc with a thermionic cathode has satisfactory stability." Suits' References: G.M.J. Mackay and C.V. Ferguson,J. Franklin Inst. 181, 209 (1916). I. Langmuir, General Electric Rev. 29, 153 (1926). R.A.Weinman and I. Langmuir, Gen. Elec. Rev. 29, 160 (1926). P. Alexander,Gen. Elec. Rev 29, 169 (1926). A Lotz, Zeits, f. tech. Physik, 15, 187 (1934) (Water Vapor Arcs) H. Thomas and L. Heer, Zeits f. tech. Physik 14, 385 (1933). E. Kiessling, Zeits, f, Physik 96, 365, (1935). It took a trip to the University of New Mexico Engineering Library to dig this out.Sure hard to find a parking spot. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 14:57:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11699; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:51:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:51:44 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] T & R quote again Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:50:01 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f69f55.43782703 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E20 compuserve.com> In-Reply-To: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E20 compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7ZUTs2.0.bs2.y1Azq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16188 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:12:03 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >Jed's all time favorite Tom & Ray comment: It is a known fact that if you take >apart a Volkswagen carburetor and put it back together, and you repeat that >again enough times, eventually you will have enough parts left over to >assemble another carburetor. [snip] Actually this is true. Every time you leave something out, what you have left doesn't work, so you have to pull it apart and start again. If you leave out something every time, then eventually you will only have a heap of spare parts. Just enough in fact to build one complete carburetor if assembled correctly ;). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 15:19:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11343; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:06:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:06:20 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:06:01 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f7a28f.44609786 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199802251201_MC2-349C-3F47 compuserve.com> In-Reply-To: <199802251201_MC2-349C-3F47 compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"A7UM72.0.ym2.eFAzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16189 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:59:05 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >I'd like to comment on some of the points Miles made. This is what I have >explained to Murray: > > Recombination is the first thing we check before reporting excess heat. > I keep a complete record of D2O additions in every experiment, and > always find that the D2O consumption is in accord with Faraday's Law > under normal conditions. (solid palladium rods are used that are kept > completely submerged in the D2O. All lead wires are covered with shrink > Teflon). In fact, there is always a slightly larger loss of D2O than > calculated by Faraday's Law due to the evaporative loss of heavy water. > >This, as I said, is a reliable way to track recombination. Two other methods [snip] This bothers me somewhat. It appears that recombination tends to reduce water loss, while evaporation increases it. So how does one determine how much of each has taken place? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 16:14:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24573; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:04:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:04:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:02:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802260002.SAA05779 dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> From: rwall ix.netcom.com (Richard Wayne Wall) Subject: Re: Mickferson UFO story To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"azvh_1.0.t_5.u5Bzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16190 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You wrote: snip >Reasons I believe the event could be real: > >1. The device the alien was employing to dissect the cow looked like >the beam of a neon helium laser. It looked like a red laser beam. >When it was shot at the camera I overloaded the cammera as an intense >light would do. I have a laser of this type so I know how they act. >Red sparks were coming off of the cow where the laser hit. The power >of the lasor would have to be many Kilowatts to make sparks like this. > I don't know of any held units exist in this power range. Could you >even purchase such a unit to make a film? snip >Frank Znidarsic Frank, In medicine we often use CO2 lasers (invisible) combined with a HeNe (visible) spotting beam. The HeNe beam is pulsed very fast and appears to the eye to be a continous red beam. When the beam strikes tissue it gives off red sparks as it vaporizes the tissue. These lasers are very common and use far less than a kilowatt of power. RWW From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 16:28:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27625; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:21:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:21:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F4B48E.20938560 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:17:19 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: McPhersons References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bE4Rp2.0.Zl6.lLBzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16191 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote: > Thank you John Berry. > > I didn't believe that Stan Freedman could be duped like that. Whow, > this was presented like a television special. > > Oh gosch, poor Stan Freedman was really sucked in. He said > that "These kind of special effects could not be made with a 8 MM cammera. I > agreed and ether the thing was real or a bigger production company was behind > it. They really suckered Stan in. > > Frank Znidarsic Not quite "The only authentic people in the entire production were three well-known researchers: Stanton Friedman, Yvonne Smith and Derrel Sims. CNI News has contacted all three since the show aired and has learned that none of them were ever shown the "abduction" videotape prior to being interviewed for the show. Nor were they given a clear idea of what the show would be like. They were asked general questions on abduction, and their comments were edited, where possible, to sound as if they were commenting on the events portrayed in the program. This again was manipulative, exploitive and deceitful on UPN's part. These three researchers inadvertently gave this program a measure of undeserved credibility. They were shamefully used and exploited." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 17:28:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08700; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:20:33 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:18:28 +0000 Message-ID: <19980226011824.AAB27806 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"L585j1.0.p72.UDCzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16192 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: >> >>This, as I said, is a reliable way to track recombination. Two other methods >[snip] Robin wrote: >This bothers me somewhat. It appears that recombination tends to >reduce water loss, while evaporation increases it. So how does one >determine how much of each has taken place? Melvin Miles wrote: In fact, there is always a slightly larger loss of D2O than calculated by Faraday's Law due to the evaporative loss of heavy water. Ed Wall writes: Can it be safe to assume this simple method for monitoring recombination is accurate, provided electrolytic calibration (as opposed to heater calibration) runs are done in very similar circumstances of room temperature, lighting and humidity (the determining factors for evaporation, beside electrolyte temperature)? So, it seems that evaporation is a minor effect compared to dissociation losses and evaporation losses are predictable / repeatable. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 17:36:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21891; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:24:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:24:52 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS errata Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:24:10 +0000 Message-ID: <19980226012408.AAA3683 HOME> Resent-Message-ID: <"ElkOF3.0.tL5.XHCzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16193 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote: When, in fact, that was Jed repeating what he wrote to Murray. Hey, it happens... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 19:53:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25430; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:48:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:48:35 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bd4268$ff8e74c0$2c8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos. Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:44:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"xa8Sl.0.AD6.HOEzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16194 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ye olde Soap Shoppe might make a form of candle from a soap kettle that is boiling animal fat and wood ashes leached with water and reacted with lime [CaOH)2] to form KOH. This will make a mix of: C3H5(OOCR)3 + 3 KOH ----> 3 KOOCR + C3H5(OH)3 (glycerin) This will make a water-alcohol soluble Soap that can be mixed with wax and burned as a candle. The K should ionize and do the BLP thing in the Flame. Sodium lye would work, but the 5.14 ev ionization potential for Sodium as opposed to the 4.34 ev ionization potential for Potassium throws the Saha Equation: Log10 (ni/no) = -5040*vi/T + 3/2 Log10 T + 15.385 for ion population in a flame at a given T too low. O/U CANDLES FOR SALE? Do you buy it, Robin? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 20:48:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02822; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:45:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:45:45 -0800 Message-ID: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:42:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"hbLiD2.0.0i.uDFzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16195 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On second thought, Robin, Tyson foods and "The Colonel" has a problem of disposing of their chicken fat and the manures (which are loaded with potassium). A mix of the potassium soap-glycerin with KNO3 or H2O2 as an oxidizer might make a great Rocket Fuel, if the Electrino-Hydrino reaction kicks in (orders of magnitude boost). Have to check this out with Robert Eachus and Frank Stenger to see what the projected Isp would be. This way you would be killing three birds with one stone, so to speak. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 21:19:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18285; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:15:20 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:15:20 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos. Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 05:13:46 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f6f955.20800158 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <000201bd4268$ff8e74c0$2c8cbfa8 default> In-Reply-To: <000201bd4268$ff8e74c0$2c8cbfa8 default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cPVWW.0.cT4.cfFzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16196 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:44:36 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >O/U CANDLES FOR SALE? Do you buy it, Robin? :-) [snip] Trying to burn the candle at both ends again Frederick? :). Not sure how much monatomic H is created during candle combustion, but it might be worth examining the UV spectrum of such a candle. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 21:23:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19542; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:20:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:20:22 -0800 (PST) From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 05:18:25 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f8fb18.21251998 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> In-Reply-To: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"of6fo3.0.Bn4.AkFzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16197 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:42:40 -0700, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >On second thought, Robin, Tyson foods and "The Colonel" has a problem of >disposing of their chicken fat and the manures (which are loaded with >potassium). A mix of the potassium soap-glycerin with KNO3 or H2O2 as an >oxidizer might make a great Rocket Fuel, if the Electrino-Hydrino reaction >kicks in (orders of magnitude boost). > >Have to check this out with Robert Eachus and Frank Stenger >to see what the projected Isp would be. > >This way you would be killing three birds with one stone, so to speak. :-) Sure, but can't you just imagine the comments from the journo's at the cape? :>. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 21:45:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18620; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:40:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:40:45 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980225223822.007a7100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:38:22 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS In-Reply-To: <34f7a28f.44609786 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199802251201_MC2-349C-3F47 compuserve.com> <199802251201_MC2-349C-3F47 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"YbinR2.0.nY4.R1Gzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16198 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:06 PM 2/25/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >This bothers me somewhat. It appears that recombination tends to >reduce water loss, while evaporation increases it. So how does one >determine how much of each has taken place? I have observed this "evaporation increase" during gas flow measurements from cells in which I believe zero recombination was occurring. It inflates the expected gas yield only by a few percent. If desired, you could separate the water vapor from the hydrogen and oxygen by flowing the gas through a cold trap. Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Feb 25 22:20:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25573; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:19:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:19:30 -0800 Message-ID: <34F50980.D72 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:19:44 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos References: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ZCtat2.0.VF6.nbGzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16199 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Fred Sparber wrote: > > Have to check this out with Robert Eachus and Frank Stenger > to see what the projected Isp would be. I can't speak for Robert, Fred, but as for me - I'm completely "over" Isp as a limit on space launches. I see a giant publicity effort sponsored by "you know who" to construct a 100-mile-high golden arch between Jefferson city, Missouri and an area near Flora, Illinois. The arch would be fabricated of reinforced kevlar fabric, inflated with H2 for support. The west side of the arch would sport a 150 mile-long coil-gun mass driver to insert shuttle-sized payloads into low earth orbit - moving west-to-east. The east side of the arch would have a mirror-image decelerator to bring the capsules back down. Perhaps a second "twin" arch would be needed to ease launch-capture schedule conflicts. The residents of St. Louis would see only a relatively straight band extending west to east overhead, but, since they have their own local arch to view, they wouldn't mind (would they?). The arch(s) would be financially self-supporting from the vertical-lift cable car ride which could carry sight-seeing tours aloft in pressurized, giant chicken McCapsules at $437 a pop. I might be available for the detailed engineering of the job. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 01:19:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10732; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:17:02 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:17:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:41:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] T & R quote again Priority: normal In-reply-to: <34f69f55.43782703 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E20 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <24B4943D3 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"vyYnp1.0.Wd2.ACJzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16200 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Jed's all time favorite Tom & Ray comment: It is a known fact that if you take > >apart a Volkswagen carburetor and put it back together, and you repeat that > >again enough times, eventually you will have enough parts left over to > >assemble another carburetor. > [snip] > Actually this is true. Every time you leave something out, what you > have left doesn't work, so you have to pull it apart and start again. > If you leave out something every time, then eventually you will only > have a heap of spare parts. Just enough in fact to build one complete > carburetor if assembled correctly ;). > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk Excellent observation! I propose a new scientific law. The total number of VW carburetors in the universe is constant (except of course in very, very small time intervals where the number is uncertain). Volkswagen, however, with the use of brilliant engineers has found a way to harness the vacuum in order to create new carburetors (but this does not violate the fundamental law presented above, since buyers of new VWs will allow their old ones to rust away, thus keeping the total number constant). JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 03:30:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14058; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 03:27:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 03:27:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:54:21 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199802260954.KAA01086 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> X-Sender: biberian mccir3.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: biberian Subject: Recombination Resent-Message-ID: <"9w-UT3.0.YR3.V6Lzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16201 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, we are working with CETI type cells, and we measure everyday the recombination under various conditions. It is interesting to note that it depends on the flow rate, and on the intensity. For small XSH it is absolutely necessary to measure it. However in F&P type experiments there is no recombination since we constantly measure the water loss due to the electrolysis, and the Faraday law applies perfectly well. This recombination issue is not an issue. It just needs to be checked under the various experimental conditions. ******************************** Jean-Paul Biberian E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr tel (33) 660 14 04 85 ******************************** From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 06:26:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA31292; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:21:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:21:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980226212042.006eb0ec world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:20:42 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Recombination Cc: biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr In-Reply-To: <199802260954.KAA01086 crmsrv.crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sSxkZ.0.ne7.pfNzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16202 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 AM 2/26/98 +0100, Jean-Paul Biberian wrote: >Jed, > >we are working with CETI type cells, and we measure everyday the >recombination under various conditions. >It is interesting to note that it depends on the flow rate, and on the >intensity. For small XSH it is absolutely necessary to measure it. Jean-Paul, In a flow calorimetric system where there is contact between the electrolysis cell to permit mass transfer of gas to the fluid flow there may removal of one (or both) evolved gas(es) depending upon mixing, diffusivity, and solubility. Is there such contact in your system? Intensity of what? Do you mean input electrical current intensity, or irradiant electromagnetic radiation? Thanks. Mitchell Swartz >However in F&P type experiments there is no recombination since we >constantly measure the water loss due to the electrolysis, and the Faraday >law applies perfectly well. > >This recombination issue is not an issue. It just needs to be checked under >the various experimental conditions. > >******************************** >Jean-Paul Biberian >E-mail : biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr >tel (33) 660 14 04 85 >******************************** > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 06:27:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA31428; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:22:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:22:51 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980226212312.006d86a0 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:23:12 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Comments re Jed's "In defense of UFOs, SHC, cos" In-Reply-To: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E1F compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"sl7xq.0.-g7.vgNzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16203 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:11 PM 2/25/98 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex >Mitchell Swartz writes: > > Like some of the silly ZPE(vacuum) claims, and the unlikely (most > charitable)o/u devices, the movie is not real. > > Cold fusion, muon, Pd/D2O, and Ni/H(various), on the other hand is real, > and should be explored with science. > > Perhaps a little wisdom is in order. > >Wisdom, caution, and a sliding set of standards are called for. One standard. Examined by the scientific method. =================================================== >I did not see this movie so I cannot judge it. I have seen various documentaries about UFOs, >spontaneous human combustion (SHC), sea serpents and various other weird >phenomena. .... Like the TB-skeptics in cold fusion (see s.p.f.), it would be good, if Jed might actually see what is being spoken of. It certainly was creative fiction flick. =================================================== > This sort of thing fascinates Arthur Clarke, although he is fed up >with UFO claims. I enjoy episodes of his "Amazing World" television series. I >think it is worth investigating these things, and speculating about them. I >think these things "should be explored with science" (as Swartz puts it) even >though science is inadequate to the task. Agree about Dr. Clarke. But, science is NOT inadequate to the task. The scientific method will deliver answers. The failure to teach it to children in the United States, along with mathematics other than integers, may contribute to the dismal failure of US high school teachers when judged by the measured competance of their students against worldwide standards (confer even yesterday's news). =================================================== >It is poor tool, but we have no other. It is a very good too - and there are others. Data collection without hypothesis and followup expt, for example. =================================================== >I find it peculiar that some scientists denigrate weird phenomena like >SHC and sea serpents. They should be denigrating their own limitations! It >isn't the sea serpent's fault that we seldom catch up with them. (By the way, >based on the photos and videos of the rotting sea serpent that Japanese >fishing boat crew hauled aboard, I think it is nearly certain that large, >undiscovered creatures similar to extinct marine dinosaurs do exist. It is a >terrible shame the Japanese sailors decided to chuck the thing overboard >because it stank. They were such idiots they did not realize the specimen was >worth more than a whole fleet of fishing boats.) Many scientists have looked for putative lifeforms, including my acquaintance and past teacher (too many years ago to remember), Robert Rines. We have looked for the cretacious barrier-iridium layer, and other natural, but difficult to find, aspects of Nature. Scientists lead. =================================================== >A sliding set of values are called for because these claims cannot meet the >rigorous level of proof we demand for ZPE or CF. You cannot recreate a UFO or >SHC event in the laboratory under controlled conditions with instruments. You >cannot calibrate in advance. You have no control over these phenomena. You can >never tell where they will reoccur, or when. You can investigate them is by >examining fragmentary evidence and eyewitness reports. This is most >unsatisfactory. Perhaps it would better not to investigate them at all, at the >risk of overlooking valuable knowledge. This is not true. There are investigators who actively go out, collect data, and some even experiment. And in even more diverse fields than mentioned above. =================================================== >Other phenomena are beyond our control, but they reoccur at fairly predictable >times and places, like earthquakes and hurricanes. Predictable is not a word which I would use with earthquakes. Hurricanes are hardly "predicted" (in the archaic sense of the word), when someone has two aerospace satellite weather IR and visible maps (showing dynamic change, i.e. velocity), and a ruler. =================================================== >Some phenomena frustrate us >because we seldom catch the onset. Examples include tornados, supernova >explosions, and heart attacks. Critical information may be lost in the first >few seconds after onset before the instruments can be brought to bear. (Before >the telescopes can be pointed to the supernova, or the EKG hooked to the >patient). Not sure about the first three, but with myocardial infarctions, many are documented both with ambulatory EKG recorders, and in-hospital because more than half are saved, and a fraction of them may have new (often recorded) perturbations. Again science can be, and is, used, if planning is done. =================================================== >In cosmology, the study of the origin of the universe can never be observed or >recreated, except partially in miniature. The Hubble appears to be able to look back through space and time, and see creation in real time. Doubt it is minature, even though small pictures of this are. =================================================== >Peculiar o/u devices like perpetual motion machines and Greg Watson's SMOT >should, of course, be held to highest standards of proof. There is no sliding scale, and there have already been investigators attacked by members of this group, and IMO inappropriately for some because purportedly they would not give an interview. =================================================== >The term "scientific proof" can mean practically anything, at any level of >confidence, depending on the field and the state of the art. Jed appears to confuse the 'scientific method', with proofs which can be either at levels of statistical significance, or only at the level of clinical significance. =================================================== >It can mean McKubre's high sigma test data repeated 40 times. Yes, this is statistical evidence. =================================================== >Or it might be one disputed >smear in a data trace seen once after months of work. A smear, like a cigar, is sometimes just a smear (cigar). =================================================== >Or the Antarctic rock from Mars, or global warming. >All of these things constitute "proof" to some people >and utter bilge to others. >- Jed Dont think so, although agree as to the impact. These are only labels for complex matters issues, of which data should be examined, and the scientific method followed. Agree with the fact that there is divergence as to the interpretation of the data in each of these subjects, however. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 06:34:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00290; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:30:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:30:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:26:59 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Recombination Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802260929_MC2-34BB-B9E7 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"_-qvW.0.K4.lnNzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16204 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Jean-Paul Biberian writes: It is interesting to note that it depends on the flow rate, and on the intensity. What do you mean by "intensity"? Power density? For small XSH it is absolutely necessary to measure it. Of course! - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 07:08:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08231; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:05:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:05:07 -0800 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:01:03 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Recombination / evaporation problem Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802261004_MC2-34BD-C0E compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"fpcLa1.0.E02.VIOzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16205 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Robin van Spaandonk wrote: This bothers me somewhat. It appears that recombination tends to reduce water loss, while evaporation increases it. So how does one determine how much of each has taken place? I know three methods: 1. What Scott Little said: you could separate the water vapor from the hydrogen and oxygen by flowing the gas through a cold trap. You can have the condensed water fall back into the cell. In my experience, you can channel the gas though 10 cm of thin tube held above the cell in the air. That will be enough to condense the water. You can see the beads of water collecting in the tube. Free O2 and H2 gas do not condense. Another method of measuring recombination that I did not mention yesterday is to recombine the gas stream externally in another vessel and measure the water every day. This keeps the recombiner from contaminating the electrolyte. 2. Measure evaporation using a joule heater to make electrolyte temperature the same as it is during the experiment. You can do this before or after the run. 3. Look it up! Chemistry textbooks say how much water evaporates at a given temperature. Pons and Fleischmann worked this out from first principles. It is not linear. Evaporation increases rapidly at temperatures above 80 deg C (hot coffee temperature). As Scott said, evaporation usually "inflates the expected gas yield only by a few percent." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 08:10:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27946; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:07:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:07:03 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bd42d0$2abb7140$1f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: test Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:26:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"rNWzM3.0.zp6.YCPzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16206 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: testing From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 14:48:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02051; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:40:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:40:53 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34F5EF66.782 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:40:38 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] In defense of UFOs, SHC, cos References: <199802251315_MC2-34A6-E1F compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FkhLX2.0.nV.pzUzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16207 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > (By the way, based on the photos and videos of the rotting > sea serpent that Japanese fishing boat crew hauled aboard, > I think it is nearly certain that large, undiscovered > creatures similar to extinct marine dinosaurs do exist. It is a > terrible shame the Japanese sailors decided to chuck the > thing overboard because it stank. They were such idiots > they did not realize the specimen was > worth more than a whole fleet of fishing boats.) > I would not be so hasty here, Jed. One thing you have to remember whenever you have to ask yourself when you see such "evidence" for monsters, etc, is: who is telling me about this and why? Usually, the answer is: the popular mass media, and they are trying to entertain me enough to get my money. In particular, regarding these pictures of "sea monsters" on japanese fishing boats: I don't know that you are talking about exactly the same ones as I have seen, but there are some classics (one in an old Time/Life book on the unexplained, comes to mind; Arthur Clark may have shown some of tese on his show) that look like indisputable classic sea monsters. What these sources don't tell you is that these are just the rotting remains of basking sharks. When they die, their jaw drops off, leaving a tiny skull, and the flesh is eaten away near the neck/gills, exposing a long backbone, and their dorsal fin drops off, and you are left with something that looks like a classic "loch ness" monster. In particular, in the case of the photo in the Time Life book, samples from the critter were later anayzed and it was ID'd as a basking shark, though Time/Life uh "forgot" to mention this in their book, preferring to have it reman "Unexplained", soi as to beter fit their theme. So, I am not saying that there are no sea "monsters" left out there. But, I am saying that there are specific cases of fisherman hauling in things that look exactly like sea monsters (even to them!), but icthyologists recognize these as carcasses of basking sharks, visually, and in some cases the tissue has even been saved and ID'd as such. Morals: (a) don't jump to conclusions, no matter how "obvious" (b) question your sources. A little bit of (b) would have also prevented anyone from believing the recent "Mcphersons" UFO abduction home video, conveniently broadcast as a TV show on commercial network. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 15:13:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10739; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:07:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:07:05 -0800 (PST) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <34F5F52F.7E76 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:05:19 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Infiltrate the USPTO! References: <199802252009.PAA28796 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-mFDf1.0.dd2.HMVzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16208 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: E.F. Mallove wrote: > > The job notice below was sent to me by USPTO staffer, Tom Valone. He gave me permission to post this electronically. > > Tom wrote: > All able-bodied Infnite Energy technologists are > invited to infiltrate the U.S. PTO immediately. I predict that Tom Valone will not have a job at the patent office too much longer, if he is trying to use his official authority to push his own unorthodox ideas about what should be patented. If these "infinite energy" devices really worked, the patent office would be irrelevant. You cannot simply proclaim (patent) into existence whatever technologies you wish were real. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 15:37:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13683; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:22:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:22:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:18:31 -0800 Message-Id: <199802262318.PAA07396 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Infiltrate the USPTO! Resent-Message-ID: <"ucNF2.0.cL3.LaVzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16209 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I predict that Tom Valone will not have a job at the patent >office too much longer, if he is trying to use his official >authority to push his own unorthodox ideas about what >should be patented. > >If these "infinite energy" devices really worked, the >patent office would be irrelevant. You cannot simply >proclaim (patent) into existence whatever technologies >you wish were real. >Barry Merriman The PTO ought not to be as "prudent" as they are being regarding these devices. They ought to let the patents issue if the devices are plausible, or at a minimum, allow the advocates of the patents to word them in a manner that allows the devices to be patented under a sub catagory clause where the PTO does not guarantee that these devices work. That way, inventors can gain protection, investors can be forwarned that these are fringe devices and not guaranteed to work. But it is absurd that people can patent things in foreign countries and gain protection, yet in the US we cannot gain equal protection. The net is, if any of these devices are eventually found to actually work, they will be part of the existing prior art in the US and not patentable, whereas foreign companies or large companies able to apply in foreign countries for patents will be the only ones with protection. The government, aka pto ought to butt out on this one and just create a catagory for "perpetual motion like machines", and issue patents protecting even these nonsense machines. If the inventors want to spend the money, why should the pto preclude them from protection? But I agree you need to protect investors and make a clear catagory for these devices, separate from existing utility patents. The only distinction should be the confidence afforded by the PTO, but the legal protection of the device technology ought to be identical to normal utility patents. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 20:34:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01882; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:31:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:31:11 -0800 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <92c431b8.34f6415a aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:30:15 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: The End of SPF Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"BKcq21.0.jS.A6azq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16210 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: All, Well it looks like SPF is going down in flames. Sigh...it was a pretty informative group for a while but now has devolved into spam wars. I have subscribed since March 1989 and am sorry to see what it has come to. May Archie the PU and all the rest of the peanut gallery enjoy the putrid swamp it has become. RIP SPF Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Feb 26 22:55:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05806; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:53:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:53:41 -0800 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:30:14 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: JONES/SCIENTIFIC DISTORTIONS erratum In-Reply-To: <199802251334_MC2-34AB-6A62 compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EIuOp.0.eQ1.pBczq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16211 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 25 Feb 1998, Jed Rothwell wrote: > To: Vortex > > I wrote: > > However, if you turn a CETI cell upside down or > reverse the flow of electrolyte to carry oxygen to the anode beads . . . > > . . . should be cathode beads. > > I heard that with some early CETI fragile thin films, oxidation destroyed the > beads within minutes when the flow was reversed. > > Also, I said I expect that much of the hydrogen is recombined. On the other > hand much of it is not, because you can see many bubbles emerging in the flow > of water. The free gas bleeds off at a gas splitter (gas trap). Cravens often > runs with a gas flowmeter at the gas splitter outlet. He must know out how > much recombination occurs. > > - Jed > > *THANKS* "Nothing has more lives than an error you refuse to correct." -- O.A. Battista, Canadian-born author-scientist you've "done" Good! ---------- anode /or/ cathode : (I've almost lost a hand on this error with HV experiments). thanks again for the correction to all. -=se=- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 05:38:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04753; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 05:35:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 05:35:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002501bd4383$f8991280$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: BLP, Dissociation and Ionization of Alkai Metals-Compounds Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:30:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"7TKMJ2.0.AA1.N4izq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16212 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Saha Equation: Log10(ni/no)= -5040(Vi/T) + Log10 T + 15.385 can be applied (with caution)to the breaking of the bonds of the Alkali Metals with Oxygen and the H-H and H-OH bonds. The Alkali metal(M)bonds such as; M-O-M and M-O-CO-O-M as in K2CO3 are in the range of 3.0-5.2 ev,as are the ionization energies of the alkali metals. >From this one might substitute the dissociation energy Vd for the ionization energy Vi in the Saha Equation. These energies are still substantially below the 12-14 ev ionization potentials required for ionization of Hydrogen or Water in a "plasma", thus the "catalyst" effect of the alkali metals in the BLP experiments: K + Hot Tungsten ---> K+ + e- and H2 + Hot Tungsten ---> 2 H Then Light Lepton (LL-) + K+ ----> K* which only holds the LL- in the outer "shell" due to the 18 electrons still on the potassium atom. Contact of K* with an H leads to an electron and LL- exchange; K* + H ---> Hydrino + K with possibly as much as 255 kev energy release. In a flame the Hydrogen and/or water are not ionized to any extent but the alkali metals can break bonding with oxygen and ionize thus catalyzing the hydrino reactions. According to the Saha equation,above about 2700K it makes little difference which alkali metal is present, but potassium seems to be the best choice at the 1800-2275 temperatures. It is used in MHD plasmas and is present in biomass-fossil fuels. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 06:17:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25202; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:16:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:16:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199802271415.JAA22675 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Infiltrate the USPTO! Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 09:17:15 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"JO3ni1.0.h96.lgizq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16213 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: >I predict that Tom Valone will not have a job at the patent >office too much longer, if he is trying to use his official >authority to push his own unorthodox ideas about what >should be patented. I think he'll be fine. It was his supervisor who asked him to go very public. The USPTO is seriously in need of new people. Tom is well respected there, so I trust he will be left alone. The person who should be fired (and prosecuted) is Harvey Behrend -- the lone wolf who obstructed the P&F patent into near oblivion. > >If these "infinite energy" devices really worked, the >patent office would be irrelevant. You cannot simply >proclaim (patent) into existence whatever technologies >you wish were real. Barry, of course we all realize that! There are several infinite energy devices that DO work (e.g. CETI's and Correas') and these have patent protection. There are other devices that are patented and may or may not work. There are still others that clearly do work for which the patent office has refused to grant patents -- e.g. to P&F -- due to the criminal obstruction by the patent examiners involved and their use of fraudulent anti-PF data (the MIT PFC calorimentry) and bogus media stories from 1989. I agree that the first priority is to have working devices as widely disseminated as possible, but it is still true that many upstart companies need patent protection -- or THINK they need patent protection to move forward. Many people offering investment money require patent coverage or solid patent applications before investing. Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 07:19:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01231; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:14:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:14:41 -0800 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:10:42 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Sea serpents Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199802271013_MC2-34ED-B144 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Xm3Lv.0.3J.WXjzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16214 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Barry Merriman writes: I would not be so hasty here, Jed. I am never hasty. Ask Gene how long it takes to convince me of anything. One thing you have to remember whenever you have to ask yourself when you see such "evidence" for monsters, etc, is: who is telling me about this and why? Usually, the answer is: the popular mass media, and they are trying to entertain me enough to get my money. In the example I cited my source is Arthur C. Clarke and his research staff. Why? Because he is interested in it, and because he wants to make money selling his television series. He has tons of credibility with me. In particular, regarding these pictures of "sea monsters" on Japanese fishing boats: I don't know that you are talking about exactly the same ones as I have seen . . . But you did not see the Japanese one, so you cannot judge it. Right? (Just making sure.) . . . but there are some classics (one in an old Time/Life book on the unexplained, comes to mind; Arthur Clark may have shown some of these on his show) that look like indisputable classic sea monsters. Yup, they showed a number things that look like sea monsters but are not. What these sources don't tell you is that these are just the rotting remains of basking sharks. When they die, their jaw drops off, leaving a tiny skull, and the flesh is eaten away near the neck/gills, exposing a long backbone . . . Clarke did say that. The film showed gruesome photos and pictures of that sort of thing. They had an expert discussing the bones of basking shark that were the basis of an 18th century sea monster report. The bones had been preserved in a museum. So, I am not saying that there are no sea "monsters" left out there. But, I am saying that there are specific cases of fisherman hauling in things that look exactly like sea monsters (even to them!), but ichthyologists recognize these as carcasses of basking sharks, visually . . . But in this case, a Japanese ichthyologist working with the remaining photos and video evidence says the creature looks unlike anything else alive today. He was interviewed in the program. Of course, as I said, this is only fragmentary evidence. The real proof was chucked overboard. A Japanese television crew boarded the boat from a helicopter and took videos of the corpse. You'd think they would have told the captain to dump the catch and preserve the monster. They should have offered a giant reward. (a) don't jump to conclusions, no matter how "obvious" I never jump to conclusions. (b) question your sources. Sir Arthur NEVER, EVER jumps to conclusions. I have been trying to convince him of certain CF evidence for years. He is one of the most skeptical scientists I know. As he says, "I have sat on the fence so long, the iron has entered my soul." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 10:57:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12021; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:54:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:54:19 -0800 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Cosmology Article Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:53:37 +0000 Message-ID: <19980227185326.AAB20196 HOME> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA11989 Resent-Message-ID: <"GqjxA.0.ix2.Plmzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16215 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Astronomers Find Antigravity Force By Paul Recer AP Science Writer Thursday, February 26, 1998; 6:02 p.m. EST WASHINGTON (AP) -- Scientists studying exploding stars more than 7 billion light-years away have found evidence of a mysterious antigravity force that is causing the universe to expand at an accelerating rate. The finding supports a concept first proposed by Albert Einstein, who later discarded the idea and called it his biggest blunder. ``It is such a strange result we are still wondering if there is some other sneaky little effect climbing in there,'' Adam Riess, an astronomer at the University of California, Berkeley, said Thursday. He said he and the others in the 15-member international team that made the discovery ``have looked hard for errors,'' but found none. The findings were discussed last month at a meeting of scientists in Los Angeles and reported in the journal Science. Using the Hubble Space Telescope and ground-based telescopes in Hawaii, Australia and Chile, the astronomers analyzed the light arriving from 14 supernovae, or exploding stars, that are 7 billion to 10 billion light-years from Earth. A light-year is the distance that light travels in one year -- about 6 trillion miles. Riess said these stars are seen the way they were when the universe was only about half its present age. By repeatedly observing the objects and analyzing how their motion stretched the light, the astronomers were able to measure the speed at which the stars are moving away. This rate was then compared with the motion of supernovae much closer to the Earth. What they expected to find was that the expansion of the universe was slowing slightly from the effect of gravity, said team member Robert Kirshner of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. ``What people thought is that the universe was just coasting'' from the force of the Big Bang, he said. ``Instead, we found it is actually speeding up.'' Kirshner said this acceleration will continue and within billions of years many of the stars now seen will be gone from view. ``The universe will be a very different place to look at,'' he said. ``It will be very lonely.'' Rocky Kolb, a University of Chicago astronomer, said in Science that the finding is so startling ``I think everyone should reserve judgment.'' Kirshner said that the conclusion will go through an intensive review by many astronomers before the results are accepted, although he noted that preliminary results from a parallel study by another astronomy group are in agreement. If the universe is accelerating, it could solve one problem for astronomers. Some measurements have put the age of the universe at about 10 billion years. This is younger than the measured ages of some stars, a dilemma that has confounded astronomers. With the acceleration of the universe factored in, said Riess, the universe would have to be about 14 billion years old, some 2 billion years older than the oldest star. ``That would no longer make the daughter older than the mother,'' said Riess. Riess illustrated the acceleration force by comparing it to how a jet airplane is launched from an aircraft carrier. A catapult slings the aircraft from the deck, but once it is airborne, the jet's engines take over and the craft speeds up. The Big Bang, the theoretical beginning of the universe, started the motion of the universe, just as the catapult starts the jet moving. But after that, the expulsive force causes the universe to speed up, just as the jet's engine causes the airplane to go faster. ``We're seeing the universe take off,'' said Riess. Riess said the ``cosmological constant'' first proposed by Einstein is ``the only explanation we have'' for the acceleration. He described the constant as ``a repulsive force that is a property of vacuum in space and time.'' ``Our everyday experience tells us that a vacuum is empty, that there is nothing in it, but that might not be true,'' he said. ``There may be an energy, a force, associated with a vacuum.'' Over short distances, said Riess, this repulsive force can't be detected, but over distances of 7 billion to 10 billion light-years, ``this force becomes something to reckon with, and is strong enough to overcome gravity and cause the universe to accelerate.'' © Copyright 1998 The Associated Press From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 12:15:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06413; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:03:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199802272003.MAA31074 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Cosmology Article Resent-Message-ID: <"3Vf6u2.0.4a1.Npnzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16216 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Riess illustrated the acceleration force by comparing it to how a jet >airplane is launched from an aircraft carrier. A catapult slings the >aircraft from the deck, but once it is airborne, the jet's engines take over >and the craft speeds up. > >The Big Bang, the theoretical beginning of the universe, started the motion >of the universe, just as the catapult starts the jet moving. But after that, >the expulsive force causes the universe to speed up, just as the jet's >engine causes the airplane to go faster. Well well. Gee, do you mean mass must be conserved, and that stars are acting like jet engines blowing out aether and accelerating the expansion of the universe? Who could have thought of that whacko idea, uh, aether theorists I guess. ;-) The entire thing is so simple it is silly. To think that empty space is empty, yet can distort is just dumb. To think that we need to invent yet another force called a cosmological constant to explain this is equally as silly as Ptolemy's believing that the earth was at the center of the universe. Today, physicists and most of you on vortex believe that "particles" are the center of their universes. Thus, you have to invent "forces" to explain why different particles interact. If you replace that with an ocean of aether, and solitonic resonances in aether, then you don't need to study forces, you study how waves in a single medium, interact with solitonic waveforms in that very same medium. "Forces" then become nothing more complex than the different kinds of wave interactions. Soliton to soliton (strong), soliton exchange in composite solitonic structures (weak), soliton to spacetime to soliton (electric) ((the above all being phase angle interactions, ie interferences)) And you get soliton to spacetime to soliton frequency interference and filtering because of the non linear index of refraction of the aether, ergo the ability to form solitons (gravitation where you filter incident energy from far away galaxies and spacetime waves that are red shifted relative to local spacetime wave topology) But this article deals with the fact that fusion reactions, where mass is "lost" must be due to aether emission from the solitonic structures involved. Aether conservation leads to aether emission from stars, and a plethora of mysterious inertial phenomena. The cosmological constant is a result of the aether emission, and thus the continuing expansion of the universe. > >``We're seeing the universe take off,'' said Riess. > >Riess said the ``cosmological constant'' first proposed by Einstein is ``the >only explanation we have'' for the acceleration. > >He described the constant as ``a repulsive force that is a property of >vacuum in space and time.'' > >``Our everyday experience tells us that a vacuum is empty, that there is >nothing in it, but that might not be true,'' he said. ``There may be an >energy, a force, associated with a vacuum.'' Well, we know the vacuum is NOT empty. But when are we going to learn that it is substantive and all that there is to work with?????????????? Here is what a fusion reaction IS. It is two, composite solitonic structures, such as DD, combining and splintering into a new set of solitonic forms, say He3 and n, such that the amount of aether confined in those standing wave structures is reduced, and the excess is shot out of the paths of least confinement via jets. The **action** from those jets, accelerates the remaining solitonic waveforms to a new value E, given by the amount of aether emitted, m, times the velocity of emission squared, c^2. The net effect is that fusion, PUSHES THE REST OF THE UNIVERSE AWAY FROM THAT REGION OF THE QUANTUM VACUUM, DUE TO THE EMISSION OF MORE OF THE AETHER OF THE QUANTUM VACUUM. The only reason there is "quantization" is because "spacetime", is a topology of waves, with a fundamental frequency at the Planck frequency, ~E45 Hz. If you think about it carefully, you will realize how silly it is to keep on adding a new force everytime we find that the universe causes matter to accelerate in some new manner. It is exactly like finding another planet, and applying Ptolemaic principles to that new planet to define the ways that it moves, including it's peculiar retrograde motions. The most recent such "inventions" have been the nuclear strong, weak, gluon forces, and now, cosmological force where up to now we haven't placed much credence in it. But these recent findings seem to add weight to the notion that there is a positive expansive thrust component to the inertial interactions. It is naive to think that you can have particles, forces, spacetime as seperate, independent structures within a single universe. How can a "particle" interact with a "field", unless particle and field are one and the same underlying structure, and medium? Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 14:24:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16856; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:17:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:17:22 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980227171808.00ba6950 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:18:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos Cc: "Vortex-L" In-Reply-To: <34f8fb18.21251998 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"XWr3l1.0.874.kjpzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16217 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 05:18 AM 2/26/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >Have to check this out with Robert Eachus and Frank Stenger >to see what the projected Isp would be. You just think you are joking... The solid fuel developed for the Polaris program was a mix of hydrocarbons (basically rubber), ammonium and potassium (later lithium) perclorate, and aluminium. (The shuttle boosters use basically the same mix.) The mix turned out to do much better than anticipated (higher Isp), and as the aluminum content was pushed, the performance continued to improve. I think the end result was to triple the amount of aluminum compared to the expected ratios. The original belief was that the "extra" energy was from AlO++ radicals in the exhaust stream combining with atmospheric oxygen. The later explanation was that the oxygen bound to the Aluminum instead of the hydrogen, and the average molecular weight of the exhaust was not a good approximation--you had to look at the thrust from each component separately. On the other hand it could be that the more free hydrogen available, the more hydrinos created. ;-) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 14:50:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22486; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:36:33 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980227173734.00bb5c90 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:37:34 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34F50980.D72 interlaced.net> References: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5Gy9R2.0.8V5.l_pzq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16218 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:19 AM 2/26/98 -0500, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >I can't speak for Robert, Fred, but as for me - I'm completely "over" >Isp as a limit on space launches. I see a giant publicity effort >sponsored by "you know who" to construct a 100-mile-high golden arch >between Jefferson city, Missouri and an area near Flora, Illinois. >The arch would be fabricated of reinforced kevlar fabric, inflated with >H2 for support. The west side of the arch would sport a 150 mile-long >coil-gun mass driver to insert shuttle-sized payloads into low earth >orbit - moving west-to-east. The east side of the arch would have a >mirror-image decelerator to bring the capsules back down. Perhaps a >second "twin" arch would be needed to ease launch-capture schedule >conflicts. The residents of St. Louis would see only a relatively >straight band extending west to east overhead, but, since they have >their own local arch to view, they wouldn't mind (would they?). >The arch(s) would be financially self-supporting from the vertical-lift >cable car ride which could carry sight-seeing tours aloft in >pressurized, giant chicken McCapsules at $437 a pop. >I might be available for the detailed engineering of the job. Keith Henson published a plan something like this several years ago called a "launch loop," but it was supported by separate balloons. Sounds like a refinement--I'll have to ask him. But there is an even more elegant solution, if you have the hubris. Build one vertical tube (or if you prefer, several), pull a vaccuum in the tube and shoot steel projectiles from an ground-based electromagetic rail gun up the tube at better than escape velocity. Your spaceship catches the projectiles, turns them around and throws them back to the rail gun. (If you are familiar with the old steel banding used on shipping crates, think of the projectiles as a half-meter long pieces.) Thrust is transmitted directly from bedrock to the spaceship--with a delay determined by the distance. If you do out the numbers, you will find that that during a launch you have several thousand tons of steel going back and forth. If the spaceship explodes, the steel all continues out into interplanetary space, perhaps to return someday as meteors. But if the returning stream gets deflected through the side of the tube, whoops! Note that the vaccuum channel does a lot more than hold the air out. It has to steer any straying projectiles, and can accelerate descending or decelerate ascending projectiles to support itself. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 17:43:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28749; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:39:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:39:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F76AA1.3B99 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:38:41 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos References: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> <3.0.1.32.19980227173734.00bb5c90@spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rKy4s.0.317.dhszq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16219 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: > (snip vacuum tube details) > Note that the vaccuum channel does a lot more than hold the air out. > It has to steer any straying projectiles, and can accelerate descending or > decelerate ascending projectiles to support itself. > Yes, Robert, I'm fascinated by such giant space-launch machines. Years ago I ran some calcs. on a "sky-hook" system using a variable cross-section kevlar cable, extending from earth-surface to and past a mass in synchronous orbit. The cable inside the synchronous radius (SR) would be at sub-orbital velocity so there would need to be a "counter mass" extending beyond SR to provide a modest net tensile force in the cable. Electric cargo capsules could traverse the cable at a rate such that a photovoltaic-powered ion thruster or electric H2 plasma thruster could station-keep against the tangential cable force needed to accelerate the capsules to orbital speed. Perhaps returning capsules could do this job if a two-track cable could be used. At the time, it seemed that kevlar just failed to make the idea feasible but that if even stronger materials could be found - it might work. Neat part - the cable would be stationary relative to earth atmosphere - except for wind forces of course (jet stream, etc.). If such a strength/weight ratio material were avaiable, it's interesting to come up with a workable deployment scheme. Big problem - the cable would be a "sitting duck" for orbital material inside SR. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 18:58:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11993; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:55:21 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:55:21 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:53:08 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"hkn7w3.0.Fx2.Lotzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16220 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-02-27 20:40:41 EST, you write: > Years ago I ran some calcs. on a "sky-hook" system using a variable > cross-section kevlar cable, extending from earth-surface to and past > a mass in synchronous orbit. <> > Frank Stenger An interesting novel, The Fountains of Paradise by Arthur Clarke deals with the physics and politics of building such a project. Good read. Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Feb 27 19:50:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20190; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:47:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:47:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001401bd43fa$f80f9e20$4c8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Rocket Fuels and Hydrinos Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:42:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ldl5v.0.Ox4.5Zuzq" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16221 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert I. Eachus wrote: Snip >The solid fuel for the Polaris program was a mix of >hydrocarbons (basically rubber)ammonium and potassium >(later lithium) perchlorate, and aluminum.(the shuttle >boosters use basically the same mix). >The mix turned out to be better than anticipated (higher Isp), and as the aluminum content was pushed, >the performance continued to improve. >On the other hand it could be that the more free hydrogen >available, the more Hydrinos created. ;-) At 1573 K (well above the melting point of aluminum)the Saha Equation predicts 25% of the aluminum vapor will be ionized to Al+ (5.986 ev). Whether an LL-/LL+ pairs (produced from the "burn")couples and an H exchanges: LL- + Al+ ---> Al*, then Al* + H ---> Hydrino + Al, and an LL+ couples with an electron,or Mills' mechanism kicks in, the net result is Hydrino energy multiplication. :-) It's getting to look like Hydrinos/Electrinos show up in combustion processes as well as in the other O/U effects, doesn't it? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 03:48:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25128; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 03:46:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 03:46:57 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01bd443e$2d2c9700$4c8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: BLP Hydrinos and Pressure Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 04:43:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"GCDH23.0.T86.la_zq" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16222 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: According to M.N. Saha (1920), because of the rate of recombination of ions (M <---> M+ + e-) at high pressure vs the rate of production, his equation: Log10 (ni/no) = -5040*Vi/T + Log 10 T + 15.385 is corrected for the recombination rate by lowering the pressure which reduces the rate of recombination leaving the rate of ionization unchanged. For Ca+ (6.113 ev) at 5273 K: Pressure(atm) 1.0E-1 1.0E-2 1.0E-3 1.0E-4 1.0E-5 1.0E-6 % ionized 6.5 20.2 54.5 90 99 (100) Kind of supports the BLP results that low pressure and high temperatures produce the most Hydrinos, doesn't it? Can't produce Hydrinos in the Stellar interior? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 06:07:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08567; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 05:56:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 05:56:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34F81778.72C interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:56:08 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"H2DPO3.0.V52.KU1-q" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16223 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > An interesting novel, The Fountains of Paradise by Arthur Clarke > deals with the physics and politics of building such a project. > Good read. > Thanks for the info, Vince. Shows you how out-of-touch I am with the literature of my youth. I know Arthur invented the sync. sat. - figures he would write about variations. I wonder how the new "spider web" materials research might impact this idea? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Feb 28 16:17:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13078; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:15:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:15:16 -0800 From: rvanspaa eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Chicken Fat for Soft Soaping Electrinos-Hydrinos Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 00:14:56 GMT Organization: Improving Message-ID: <34f8b552.65631469 mail.eisa.net.au> References: <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8 default> <001501bd4270$fc5a7940$2c8cbfa8@default> <3.0.1.32.19980227171808.00ba6950@spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980227171808.00ba6950 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lolx5.0.9C3.IYA-q" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/16224 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:18:08 -0500, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >At 05:18 AM 2/26/98 GMT, Robin van Spaandonk wrote: >>Have to check this out with Robert Eachus and Frank Stenger >>to see what the projected Isp would be. Actually, I didn't write that, Frederick did. My comment (which followed), was about the journo's, and I was referring to the smell. (Though in reality at those temps. there probably wouldn't be any). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on temperature. "....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..." PS - no SPAM thanks! -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*