From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 01:08:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01569; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:39:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:39:53 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:38:04 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"vwZ7L1.0.QO.MrV8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17241 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: -snip- > I've been > obsessed with a nasty little problem I'm having with some urethane resin > that's crucial to a project that's crucial, etc. etc. Last night at one > point I was *wearing* the resin like a honey-glazed ham after a little boo > boo involving a jar of resin and some nitrogen I was trying to squirt on it > from the valve of a high pressure tank without a regulator on it. :( > :):):) Couldn't resist this one, this reminds me of how "Hobie" (of surfboard fame) once tried applying resin to his boards, but it was from his scuba tank (air) , not nitrogen.. your NOT SuRfInG 'on the side' are you? steve (surf's up in denver -yea right) ekwall :) -=se=- ekwall2 diac.com PAU! ("wipe-out" in local-tounge:) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 02:03:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00472; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 02:00:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 02:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3521D79E.4BD6 interlaced.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:58:13 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Resent-Message-ID: <"cl_Gm3.0.I7.h0X8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17242 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - >> >Horace Heffner wrote: >> > >> > >> > BTW, how much current are you using Rick? Oops, forgot to respond to that question. I think I'm getting around 150 amps or so out of a large battery charger. I haven't popped the 15A breaker on the 120v side yet, so it's probably not much more than that at 12v or so. The meter on the machine pegs past 200, but I don't trust it. 16th inch aluminum alloy (Allstate 31) 1075deg. brazing rods reach melting within 15 seconds or so, so I don't run for more than a few seconds at a time before letting things cool down. > These radial current components then lead to Lorentz > pinch-related forces that are LONGITUDINAL in > direction - as if we needed anything else to complicate > the situation! I thought we wanted longitudinal force. Geez, I just realized I'm not even clear about what this LF is supposed to be if it's real at all. Are we looking for Ampere tension - that's what the Graneaus have been hunting for I think, or something else? That Lorentz hook or magnetic pinch could lead to the Ampere tension, couldn't it? Anytime a current path veers from the straight line down a wire these forces come into play, like at the connection between brush and ring in the Marinov motor. Do electrons ever take a straight path through any normal conductor at room temperature? If they're meandering through the material in crooked paths, then it seems like they should be summing up all their little Lorentzian hooks from their meanderings, and at most it should add up to the force equivalent of half the magnetic force from the normal forward current flow over a given conductor segment. If there's anything to this, it's an effect that only exists within matter; free electrons flying straighter paths wouldn't generate thes forces. By the way, did anyone see my post about the solder pool and aluminum floating ring rotating? I got an echo of the post, but the list seems to have been acting funny today, maybe AT&Ts hiccup at my end, I don't know. Nobody responded as far as I could tell. What's the deal - everyone busy writing up their big April Fools thesis or something? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 02:14:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05842; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 02:12:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 02:12:50 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 03:11:08 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"M6qFS.0.CR1.XCX8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17243 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: >-snip- > By the way, did anyone see my post about the solder pool and aluminum > floating ring rotating? I got an echo of the post, but the list seems to > have been acting funny today, maybe AT&Ts hiccup at my end, I don't know. > Nobody responded as far as I could tell. What's the deal - everyone busy > writing up their big April Fools thesis or something? > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > Started last week+, eg: I might send a message, and get 2-3 replies THEN I get the message (original) final back, sometimes upto 8-12 hours delay. {weird} thought it was local server at first.. now I'm watching answers come in for others before the question gets here..hummm... That should help continuity of comments.. is 'someone' delaying something ??? -=se=- no fooling but, they do 'finally' all get here... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 05:49:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24633; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:45:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:45:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 04:50:11 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Bingo again Resent-Message-ID: <"B_rUP3.0.i06.kJa8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17244 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:41 PM 3/31/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >Hank, I have given up on my pet "torque couple" theory involving >radial Lorentz forces. However, this still leaves the question of >the mysterious longitudinal force. [snip] Frank, Don't give up on the torque couple yet. I still like the Bingo variation. (Did I say Bingo enough yet? 8^) If there is a steel plate over the joint between the magnets then the forces on the magnet from the currents in the brush quadrants are unbalanced, and many of the small element vectors are not through the center, especially if the magnet is square. If the forces on the magnets are off center and unbalanced, then they must also be so on the ring. This appears to me to work with the Biot, and the Magnetic pressure forms of analysis. I don't see it with Lorentz though (yet.) The counter forces preventing your ring from turning appear to me to be coming from the top and bottom of the ring, i.e. from the quadrants away from the brushes. Steel plates blocking flux from reaching the ring in those quadrants will eliminate the counterbalance. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 05:56:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26258; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:50:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:50:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 04:54:49 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Resent-Message-ID: <"BnNp42.0.6Q6.JOa8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17245 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:58 PM 3/31/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: > >By the way, did anyone see my post about the solder pool and aluminum >floating ring rotating? I got an echo of the post, but the list seems to >have been acting funny today, maybe AT&Ts hiccup at my end, I don't know. >Nobody responded as far as I could tell. What's the deal - everyone busy >writing up their big April Fools thesis or something? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Rick, This is neat but just a repeat of the Marinov floating ring thing - which can't prove anything due to susceptability to MHD forces. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 06:17:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00829; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:12:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:12:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35223DC8.691E earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:14:48 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: CF: Baudette: address 04/01/98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XX-N22.0.tC.5ja8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17246 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Charles G. Baudette 162 Tuttle Road Cumberland Center, ME 04021-9319 207-829-3872 cgbaudett aol.com Beaudette is hard at work, finishing a book on cold fusion, and tells me he is not active on Vortex-L. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 06:22:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02582; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:18:52 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:18:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35223F2E.6F96 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:20:46 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com CC: beaudett aol.com Subject: CF: Murray: correct Beaudette address 04/01/98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BaFSH3.0.7e.1pa8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17247 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: CF: Beaudette: address 04/01/98 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:14:48 -0600 From: Rich Murray Organization: Room For All To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Charles G. Beaudette 162 Tuttle Road Cumberland Center, ME 04021-9319 207-829-3872 cgbeaudett aol.com Beaudette is hard at work, finishing a book on cold fusion, and tells me he is not active on Vortex-L. Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 06:45:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07003; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:41:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:41:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005d01bd5d7b$905b3920$478cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Particles From Particle Collisions? Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:35:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"rKt9E.0.5j1.h7b8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17248 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Quantum Mechanics and Feynman's "World Lines" show that particles of opposite charge in collision can create Virtual Photons and these can create Particle Pairs. It seems that an electron colliding with a proton creates the neutrino-antineutrino pair by this mechanism. Given that the proton and electron are "Electromagnetic Energy Loops" with radius: R = kq^2/E and frequency, f = 1/[2(pi)*(4(pi)^2*R^2*eo*uo)^1/2]the pair production is somewhat akin to transformer action during the electron-proton collision. Apparently the neutrino-antineutrino pair oscillation is also phase-shifted 90 and 270 degrees from the oscillations of the electron (or a muon) and the proton. The interaction energy: dE = hbar/dt and dx = c*dt sets the rest energy of the created pair at about 1.0 ev or so,and the mass-energy provided by the proton-electron in energy sharing in keeping mvr constant for the group [electron-neutrino pair-proton]ie., [-(+*-*)+] does the rest. To deep for me. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 09:03:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15082; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:01:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:01:38 -0800 Message-ID: <35225A39.5D98 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:16:09 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7Q_lA2.0.Th3.lBd8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17250 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > I thought we wanted longitudinal force. Well, sure, Rick! - But not if it's a "fake" one, right? Of course, when you're standing around holding a ladel of smokin hot melted solder, with a jumper cable in each hand and a boiling RV battery at your back, suffering from a bad case of brass-foundrymans-ague, I guess you'll take any damn longitudinal force you can get! Right? Do electrons ever > take a straight path through any normal conductor at room temperature? If > they're meandering through the material in crooked paths, then it seems > like they should be summing up all their little Lorentzian hooks from their > meanderings, and at most it should add up to the force equivalent of half > the magnetic force from the normal forward current flow over a given > conductor segment. If there's anything to this, it's an effect that only > exists within matter; free electrons flying straighter paths wouldn't > generate thes forces. There you go, Rick, making my head hurt again! Horace, now Rick's trying to tie this all in to the electron-cyclotron-violation-of-the- second-law. I'll NEVER smile again :-( > > By the way, did anyone see my post about the solder pool and aluminum > floating ring rotating? Yes, I agree with Horace, I think the MHD forces get too complicated in this setup. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 09:05:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15056; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:01:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:01:34 -0800 Message-ID: <35225B97.42E9 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:21:59 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Bingo again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7HhUq2.0.3h3.hBd8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17249 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > (snip) > Don't give up on the torque couple yet. I still like the Bingo variation. OK, Horace, I'll keep it on one of the back burners. Maybe I should try my little ball-bearing-cart-with-magnets-trick on the region opposite the brush contact? I didn't try that one! Also, try some steel plates? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 09:25:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10667; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:21:56 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:21:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:26:37 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Bingo again Resent-Message-ID: <"dldPY1.0.Zc2.mUd8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17251 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:21 AM 4/1/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >(snip) > >> Don't give up on the torque couple yet. I still like the Bingo variation. > >OK, Horace, I'll keep it on one of the back burners. Maybe I should >try my little ball-bearing-cart-with-magnets-trick on the region >opposite the brush contact? >I didn't try that one! Sounds like a lot of trouble. > Also, try some >steel plates? Definitely. This sounds fairly quick, and should make your motor hummin. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 10:52:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25696; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:45:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:45:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:44:18 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-ZkqP1.0.OH6.Fje8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17252 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Marinov fans: I wanted to do some "loose ends" tests for Marinov forces using my ball-bearing wheeled cart. The tests used the following setup: (+) about 600 amp total feed current | | V | <-------300 A------------O-------------300 A----------> |-------------| | N | <-- My typical stack of 4 | | Radio Shack cer. mags. |-------------| <------------- |3/4" wood | The gap from N magnet Cart scoots to left with | spacer | to the horz. line is N pole as shown |-------------| about 1/4 " | | | S | Cart scoots right when S |-------------| magnet is on top. My ball-bearing cart rolls on a glass plate - very low rolling resistance, but at 600 total amps this is not critical. As noted, the magnets on the cart SCOOT off the glass plate when current flows. I should say that the above circuit is intended to simulate the Marinov motor with + current contact at the N magnet. The above magnets are seen from the pole ends so the fringe field of the N magnet stack goes into the page in the region of the vertical current feed. Note that the Lorentz force between the vertical feed and the local fringe field would predict a left force on the magnet and a right force on the feed wire. This, of course confirms the radial force theory of ring rotation IF YOU CAN CONFIRM the radial current existing in the ring brush region. Since my motor gives no sign of rotation, I can't say much about this point. For thick rings, with obvious radial current at the brushes, this would confirm CW ring rotation for the polarity shown above. I confirmed that THERE IS NO CART MOVEMENT IF THE MAGNETS ARE ROTATED 90 DEGREES IN EITHER DIRECTION. (N or S to the left or right) These are also the zero magnet torque directions for the setup. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 12:01:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05419; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:57:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:57:59 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:04:12 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"1tNqZ1.0.aK1.5nf8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17253 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:44 PM 4/1/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Marinov fans: > > This, of course confirms the radial force >theory of ring rotation IF YOU CAN CONFIRM the radial current existing >in the ring brush region. This is a cool test, but due to the Lorentz force on the brush supply, it doesn't prove anything. The force could be purely between the magnets and the power supply line preceeding the split point. >Since my motor gives no sign of rotation, I can't say much about this >point. >For thick rings, with obvious radial current at the brushes, this would >confirm CW ring rotation for the polarity shown above. > >I confirmed that THERE IS NO CART MOVEMENT IF THE MAGNETS ARE ROTATED >90 DEGREES IN EITHER DIRECTION. (N or S to the left or right) >These are also the zero magnet torque directions for the setup. Yes, that further confirms Test 5 interpretation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 12:15:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08159; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:12:02 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:18:27 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"SQv2J2.0.K_1.G-f8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17254 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:44 PM 4/1/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >Marinov fans: > > This, of course confirms the radial force >theory of ring rotation IF YOU CAN CONFIRM the radial current existing >in the ring brush region. Sorry, should have said: This is a cool test, but due to the Lorentz force on the brush supply, it doesn't prove anything. The force could be purely between the magnets and the power supply line preceeding the split point - or not. It doesn't say anything about the force on the wires after the split point. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 12:33:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16397; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:26:28 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:26:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199804012024.PAA04313 mail.enter.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Robert G. Flower" Organization: Applied Science Associates To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:59:41 -0500 Subject: new journals online Reply-to: chronos enter.net Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Resent-Message-ID: <"CXtlz2.0.704.oBg8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17255 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To All Vortexians: Important note: two new peer reviewed electronic journals. Scientifica Rejecta Acta This journal will publish refereed papers in all fields of science. To be eligible for publication papers must have been rejected from at least three other journals. Rejection by referees must have been unanimous and papers from which referees comments are insulting or abusive are particularly well regarded. Journal of Wild Speculation and Hand Waving This journal will publish papers in all fields of science. To be eligible for publication papers authors must have demonstrated an ability in their work to reach unwarranted conclusions based on fragmented and incomplete research. Papers on cosmology are most welcome. More information on Scient. Rej. Acta and J. Wild Spec. Hand Wav. will be available shortly at the website: http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/8569/ Best regards, Bob Flower ============================================= Robert G. Flower - Applied Science Associates > Scientific Software & Instrumentation < > Quality Control Engineering < ============================================= From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 13:40:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03432; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:35:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:35:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3522B318.215F interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:35:20 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Z1JbU.0.Xr.5Ch8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17256 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > This is a cool test, but due to the Lorentz force on the brush supply, it > doesn't prove anything. The force could be purely between the magnets and > the power supply line preceeding the split point - or not. It doesn't say > anything about the force on the wires after the split point. Quite true, Horace! All I can say, from the old cart tests, is that when the cart is well to the right of the split, the "rolling" force fades and the wire repels the cart. To the left of the split, the rolling force fades and the wire attracts the cart - both expected from "normal" analysis. Your tests with Hg will be very interesting! Meanwhile, I'm toying with suspensions for the ring that would permit direct contact and a sensitive torque indication. Don't hold your breath! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 14:38:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08538; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:33:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:33:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:38:42 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"PmSEg.0.J52.I3i8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17257 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> This is a cool test, but due to the Lorentz force on the brush supply, it >> doesn't prove anything. The force could be purely between the magnets and >> the power supply line preceeding the split point - or not. It doesn't say >> anything about the force on the wires after the split point. > >Quite true, Horace! >All I can say, from the old cart tests, is that when the cart is well to >the right of the split, the "rolling" force fades and the wire repels >the cart. To the left of the split, the rolling force fades and the >wire attracts the cart - both expected from "normal" analysis. >Your tests with Hg will be very interesting! >Meanwhile, I'm toying with suspensions for the ring that would permit >direct contact and a sensitive torque indication. Don't hold your >breath! > >Frank Stenger OK, but I'm already holding my breath for two pieces of steel slapped on the sides of of your magnets. Turning Blue, Horace From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 14:52:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21688; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:48:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:48:42 -0800 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: April 1st humor Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:53:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd5dc0$eeb53940$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"jcNiG1.0.jI5.8Hi8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17258 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Disney buys MIT, see a very detailed report at: http://web.mit.edu George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 14:52:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21733; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:48:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:48:57 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3522C44A.4D7B math.ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:48:42 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: more from the Tribune References: <3.0.5.32.19980331222542.008e0100 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rTQDI3.0.UJ5.NHi8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17259 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: [From a SLC Tribune article] ---- The observation [Cold Fusion] was without a scientifically established base of understanding, as is the usual practice in science. For example, in 1911, H.K. Onnes observed (discovered) superconductivity, but science, 87 years later, still does not know or understand the mechanism whereby electrical conduction without resistance is possible; Charles Beaudette, a retired electrical engineering consultant, is currently working on a book about cold fusion. ---- Mr. Beaudette would serve his argument better if he did not make gross mistatements. The superconductivity observed by Onnes is at presently pretty well understood at a theoretical (and intuitive) level, and has been since the BCS theory in the 1950's. Not so for Hi TC superconductivity, but that is a different kettle of fish, and a discovery that is only 10 years old. (Of course, his example further undermines his case in that Hi TC wa discovered the year before "cold fusion", and has had a remarkably succeful replication record, contrary to "cold fusion".) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 15:32:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA32423; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:29:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:29:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3522CDD7.1A9C interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 18:29:27 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sUa0M1.0.Xw7.5ti8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17260 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > OK, but I'm already holding my breath for two pieces of steel slapped on > the sides of of your magnets. > > Turning Blue, OK, OK, Horace - you shamed me into doing it! I'll go see if it has any effect. (Sheesh, what a slave driver, huh, Rick?) :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 16:01:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05893; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:58:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:58:08 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:04:19 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Resent-Message-ID: <"FVPY72.0.-R1.DIj8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17261 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:58 AM 4/1/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >I can't believe we're still trying to figure this out! Horace, have >you made any headway on your program yet? > >Frank Stenger OK, OK, I stopped my high voltage stuff and started on the program this afternoon. (Sheesh, what a slave driver, huh, Rick?) :-) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 16:10:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08710; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:08:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:08:02 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:07:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199804020007.QAA29113 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Longitudinal force Hg rail gun, here you go; Resent-Message-ID: <"YLKac1.0.Z72.WRj8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17262 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: So there is a bunch of debate about longitudinal forces etc., and it is hard to figure out how to set up an experiment to probe what is really going on. How about this one: make a track consisting of two shallow grooves spaced close together. Fill the grooves with Hg as "rails". Fabricate a sort of "pontoon boat" like a rail gun clip to short circuit across the Hg rails such that the boat is shaped like an H, where the center bridge of the H goes from one rail to the other, and the two vertical lines of the H ride on top of the two Hg rails. The Hg will form into an approximately cylindrical shape due to surface tension (arrgh), so make the shape of the H riding on top a sort of semi circle pointing down over the Hg bead. Then, pump current in and across and back down the rails like in any rail gun. By driving a large fast current, the directions the Hg splatters ought to tell you about the directions of the forces imposed on it. Don't do this in a residence or in a place that is inherently poorly ventilated as Hg splatters are going to occur, and while the vapor pressure is low, it is not zero (though miners used to boil off Hg on rainy days when they couldn't work the gold mines, and yes, they did it in their tents to keep out of the rain! Not to say it didn't drive them "Mad as a Hatter", as another example of Hg poisoning if I recall) Have fun. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 16:24:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10314; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:13:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:13:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3522CAF4.44A7 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:17:08 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: CF: Murray: Eighth Miley Critique: Summary of First & Fifth 09/10/97 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"h8OUV1.0.1X2.KWj8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17263 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust164.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.164]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00065; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:09:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C818A6.5273 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:12:23 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bakealamos juno.com Subject: Eighth Miley Critique: Summary of First and Fifth Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust45.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.45]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20917; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:45:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C67B1B.AF2 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:47:55 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp Subject: Eighth Miley Critique: Summary of First and Fifth Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------69EB54D7F02" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------69EB54D7F02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan. 21, 1998 Dear Prof. Kozima, Dr. Peter Glueck today sent me a very warm and highly positive post about you and your work, and suggested you may be too busy to pay attention to some of the cold fusion debates this year on the Internet. I will take the liberty of sending you a few lenghly posts from the debate. I regard Miley's claims as extremely weak, so it may not be to your advantage to be using your theory to explain his results, as I noticed in Wayne Green's "Elemental Energy" yesterday. Of course, if you don't want any of these critical posts, just let me know. Do you know of anyone in Japan who would be interested? Thank you for your attention, Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net --------------69EB54D7F02 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mx2.eskimo.com (smartlst mx2.eskimo.com [204.122.16.49]) by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21447; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA15354; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34176915.5688 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:44:21 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse astro.byu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, storms ix.netcom.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, rdeagleton csupomona.com, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, design73@aol.com, dennis wazoo.com, ceti@onramp.net, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, wireless rmii.com, perkin3@llnl.gov Subject: [Fwd: Eighth Miley Critique: Summary of First and Fifth] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7BF131AEE7" Resent-Message-ID: <"TJE3x2.0.ml3.wPt5q" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/10724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7BF131AEE7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sept.10, 1997 Dear all, Since Dr. Miley has just posted on Vortex-L a good rejoiner to this Critique, I make bold to repost it for the convenience of those who hadn't seen it, or lost it in the mists of recent time, along with his reply. Miley makes a convincing case that there is not much deposition from layer to layer of beads, and his data is not from obvious local reaction spots. Looking over the tabulated data in my Critique just now, I have to agree that the data for Ag is, on the face of it, anomalous, uncluttered by neighboring elements, and substantial enough to be the focus of attempts at replication. I still am hoping to have the complete before and after data for the other five runs, to do the same kind of tabulated analysis. At least, what is the before and after data for Ag in these runs? Was this specific configuration, run # 8, run again? Also, if new sets of 10 beads were taken from the before and after beads of Run # 8, and analyzed in the same way, then that would be another way to check the analysis-- but expensive. It may be a very cogent suggestion that outgassing in solid electrodes produces the noticable "volcanos" imaged by other researchers. Rich Murray, rmforall earthlink.net Here is Miley's post: Subject: Murray's "Miley Critique" # 8 Resent-Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:14:53 -0700 Resent-From: Vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:18:03 -0500 From: "George H. Miley" Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com To: vortex-L eskimo.com, Richard Thomas Murray CC: g-miley uiuc.edu In his eighth "Miley Critique," Murray brings out several important new issues that I wish to address. First he questions the sampling technique for bead analysis. In the initial experiments, I took beads from the top of the bed due to the accessibility of lower layers. By the time of ICCF-6 I had developed a technique to sample the distribution as a function of bed height. This involved sample lots of roughly a hundred beads, each lot being taken from a different height. Variations for the "9 NAA elements" were less than 30%, and generally less that 10%. No trends indicating significant element migration as a function of height were found. Thus, I do not believe that migration of elements during the runs play a significant role in the results. (More recently we have also used ICP-MS analysis of lots from different heights and found similar results.) Second, Murray questions whether the SIMS measurements are representative since they may be focused on local spots on the "lips" of volcanoes, etc. such as observed by Mizuno, Ohmori, and Dash. An important distinction between the present thin-film electrolysis and the solid electrodes that other researchers have used is the lack of observable surface disruptions like the volcanoes, pits, etc. with the thin films. The SEM photograph of a surface shown in the Texas AM paper is typical. As seen in that photo, the surface is roughened, but not locally ruptured by the formation of new structures. SIMS scans across a bead surface do show some gentle variations in element concentration (probably due to locations where bead surfaces touch and due to uneven flow patterns), but no local "hot spots" or "volcanoes" appear. My guess is that pressure buildup due to absorbed H/D plus any product gases causes disruptions in the case of solid electrodes, whereas gas diffusion prevents excessive buildup with the thin films. This phenomena clearly needs more study, but again does not seen to play a key role in the thin-film experiments and their analyses. The long table of isotope yields repeated by Murray in critique # 8 is interesting, but again fails to account properly the use of SIMS vs. NAA for isotopic ratios. Since this issue was addressed in my earlier response to critique #7, I will not elaborate here. I am pleased, however, that despite these continued differences in interpretation, Murray now acknowledges that some of the isotope shifts formerly questioned may be valid. I only want to repeat one of my earlier comments here-- it is not necessay to prove all 70+ isotopes observed have anomalous shifts-- if only one element exhibits a significant "yield" and an anomalous isotope ratio, that data alone provides a strong case that chemically assisted transmutations can occur-- which is the fundamental issue the experiment was designed to study. As stated before, both Cu and Ag plus several other elements clearly seem fall into this category for the Ni run (#8). Other researchers have measured "transmuted" isotopes and anomalous isotope ratios, but I seem to be the first to attempt measurement of quantitative yield and production rate values. I believe this data will be very valuable for theorists wishing to understand the phenomena. If impurities are responsible, then isotope transport and diffusion rates in the electrolyte and films must be consistent with the measured yield/rate data-- but, according to my estimates of these rates, there are large discrepancies vs the data. On the other hand, if nuclear reactions are occurring, among other things, the corresponding energy balances must agree with the observed excess heat. As noted in the papers, the balance, found by taking the product yields times their binding energies less the same for the reactants (Ni and p for Run #8, with conservation of nucleons assumed), does give reasonable agreement. This observation is not proof of one interpretation vs. another, but it does provide added "feasibility" to the data interpretation that low energy nuclear reactions were indeed occurring. The key issues that could change this conclusion are, in my opinion, the discovery of a yet unidentified impurity source or of a systematic error in the analyses of the isotopes. Ultimately, these issues will be further checked by others who try to duplicate the experiments. --------------7BF131AEE7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by belize.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12781; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (1Cust109.Max2.Albuquerque.NM.MS.UU.NET [153.34.14.109]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00769; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33D448C9.54B2 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:44:41 -0700 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, 72240.1256@compuserve.com, 76570.2270 compuserve.com, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, bssimon helix.ucsd.edu, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, wireless rmii.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@onramp.net, design73@aol.com, blue pilot.msu.edu, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, halfox@slkc.uswest.net, dennis wazoo.com, ine@padrak.com, little@eden.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, britz@kemi.aau.dk, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, bockris@chemvx.chem.tamu.edu, ghlin greenoil.chem.tamu.edu, drom@vxcern.cern.ch, kennel nhelab.iae.or.jp, david@iceland.it.earthlink.net, k@suba.com, shellied sage.dri.edu, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mil, rmills blacklightpower.com, wrgood@earthlink.net, yekim physics.perdue.edu, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, nagel dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton@csupomona.edu, tchubb@aol.com, perkins3 llnl.gov, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com Subject: Eighth Miley Critique: Summary of First and Fifth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit B.S. in history and physics, M.I.T., 1964, M.A. in psychology, Boston U. Graduate School, 1967. My life has been devoted to a private exploration of expanded states of consciousness. For the past eight years, I have supported myself as a home hospice worker. Maintaining a keen interest in science, I have perused every issue of Scientific American, Science, Physics Today, and Speptical Inquirer. I've followed the cold fusion field closely for eight years, subscribed to Vortex-L discussion group since January, 1996, and attended the September Low Energy Nuclear Reactions Conference. Some critical posts on Vortex-L led me to examine Miley's first two Preprints carefully. I found plenty of nits to pick, got on my high horse, and sent a long, detailed, rude post to Vortex-L early in December. Being a little tenacious at times, I've written a total of seven Miley Critiques. This one I will call for convenience, the Eighth Critique. Responding to Miley's post of July 20, I have given up some skeptical claims, and added more analysis of the data. I will take the space here to reiterate my after/before ratios in my First Miley Critique, [posted Dec 7, 1996, on George H. Miley, "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis," "Infinite Energy" magazine, # 9, July-August, 1996] calculated from his own data in Table 3 in his First Preprint, based on NAA analysis, given accuracy by him of +- 2 to 4 % in his July 20 post: [I have arranged the data by element, in order, and calculated the ratio, after/before. When helpful, I added natural abundance, the estimated SIMS count from a double-scale zerox of Fig. 3b., and possible same-mass interferences. Fig. 3b is labeled, "Typical low resolution SIMS scan after the run (average of microspheres in 3 layers in the cell).] I have added for the less common isotopes a second line with three abundance ratios, compared to the most common isotope: official, before, and after, along with the percentage change from official. #atoms per microsphere ratio, after/before before after 23-V50 3.54E10 70.1E10 19.8 23-Cr50? 399r 407r = + 2 % 408r = + 2 % 23-V51 1.44E13 28.6E13 19.9 24-Cr50 omitted, 4.4%, SIMS=~500, 23-V50? 24-Cr52 5.63E14 1070E14 190. 24-Cr53 6.27E13 1360E13 217. 8.82r 8.98r = + 2 % 7.87r = - 11 % 24-Cr54 1.53E13 255E15 167. 35.4r 36.8r = + 4 % 42.0r = + 20 % 26-Fe54 2.82E15 17.8E15 6.31 15.2r 15.2r = 0 % 15.2r = 0 % 26-Fe56 4.29E16 27.0E16 6.29 26-Fe57 1.01E15 14.1E15 14.0 42.5r 42.5r = 0 % 19.2r = - 55 % 26-Fe58 omitted, 0.28 %, SIMS=~1000, 28-Ni58? 27-Co59 1.23E14 19.9E14 16.2 100% 29-Cu63 3.57E15 116E15 32.5 29-Cu65 1.54E15 49.7E15 32.3 2.24r 2.30r = + 2.6 % 2.33r = 4.2 % 30-Zn64 1.42E15 16.7E15 11.8 28-Ni64? 30-Zn66 7.82E14 92.2E14 11.8 1.74r 1.82r = + 6.2 % 1.81r = + 4.1 % 30-Zn67 1.14E14 21.6E14 19.0 4.1%, SIMS=~10 11.9r 12.5r = + 7.4 % 7.73r = - 35 % 30-Zn68 5.08E14 130E14 25.6 18.8%, SIMS=~11 2.64r 2.80r = + 5.9 % 1.29r = -51 % 30-Zn70 1.64E13 124E13 75.6 0.6%, SIMS=~1, 32-Ge70? 81r 86.6r = +6.9 % 13.5r = - 83 % 47-Ag107 7.32E15 76.1E15 10.4 47-Ag109 6.68E15 61.4E15 9.2 1.07r 1.10r = +3 % 1.24r = + 17 % Of these 7 NAA elements, the V pair is typical, with after/before ratios astonishingly close at 19.8 and 19.9, giving absolutely no hint of changes in isotopic abundances, but suggesting strongly a 20-fold transfer of metal from one measured set of ten beads to another within the cell. This is obviously the same for Cu, while there is provocative data for Cr, Ag, and the specific isotopes: Fe57, Zn67, Zn68, and Zn70, considering the +- 2 to 4 % precision of NAA, given by Miley in his July 20 post. The most out-of-line isotope is 30-Zn70, with ratio 75.6, has only 0.6 % natural abundance, making its measurement more susceptible to dust contamination, and, shall we say, random glitches, as well possible interferences from 32-Ge70. Also, the SIMS count for 30-Zn-70 in Fig. 3b is about 1. The remarkably close match of some of the isotope pairs for V, Fe, Cu, Zn, and Ag is surprising and gratifying, and gives us more faith in the NAA measurements. The before isotopic ratio changes, compared to official values, range from 0 to + 7.4 %, largely confirming Miley's estimates in his post of July 20. The after ratios, compared to official values, range from 0 to + 20 to - 83 %. This data does not suggest isotopic shifts for V and Cu, but provides grounds for spirited debate about Cr, Fe, Zn, and Ag. Table 4a in First Preprint shows that the cells contain l91 micrograms V in the two Ti electrodes: if 1 % somehow dissolved out, then that would roughly equal the 1.52 micrograms of V that Miley measured as added to the beads. At any rate, there seems to be no evidence of isotope shift for V. If we had the specific before and after data for the other five runs, then more of this simple analysis could be done. Zn-68, with an estimated SIMS count of ~11, was listed as enhanced 15.84 % in First Preprint. Here is Miley's data from Table 3 for three isotopes of Si, a non-NAA element, so the data is from SIMS only: Atoms per microsphere Mass No. Fresh Reacted After/Before SIMS counts, from Fig. 3b 28 8.14E+16 3.02E+17 3.7 ~300 29 0 2.04E+16 ? ~ 30 30 0 1.02E+16 ? ~ 10 Again, the poverty of raw data precludes any claims about isotopic shifts, especially to four-digit accuracy! Miley's Table 3 claims Si 30 has a +14.66 % shift, based on a raw data SIMS count of about 10. Presumably, Fig. 3b presents Miley's best raw data-- why else would he publish it? By the way, why is the after data for Si 29 twice that for Si 30 ? My first five Miley Critiques present plenty of data from Miley's first two Preprints that show massive transfer of Ni from some beads to other beads within the thousand beads in a cell. So, since much of the Ni is dissolved from some beads and redeposited on other beads, any trace elements will be liberated and redeposited, perhaps as concentrated spots, which would then be likely to be noticed and measured by the micron-scale SIMS scans on the few spots on the about 10 or so beads selected for study out of the thousand in a cell. Only a thorough, detailed, exact, expensive inventory of cell contents and products, including gunk, gases, and grit, could determine if transmutation or transfer is the model to be applied to the data. Since SIMS on before beads would be on smooth, unremarkable locations of pure metal, while SIMS on after beads would presumably be on interesting, noticable specific reaction sites, like the pits, bubbles, and volcanos imaged by Mizuno, Ohmori, and Dash, then it is conceivable that 18-Kev oxygen ion bombardment on such concentrations of impurities or products, vaporizing them, could produce even more nuclear transmutations, if they are already possible under the very mild conditions of electrolysis. I will provide by email or mail copies of my Critiques. Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 rmforall earthlink.net 505-986-9103 --------------7BF131AEE7-- --------------69EB54D7F02-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 16:27:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28768; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:19:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:19:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3522CC11.41D1 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:21:53 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: CF: Murray: re Eighth Miley critique; Bush SIMS Fe-57 anomaly; Merriman praise; Rothwell apology 11/24/97 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"TCQ-o.0.I17.Gcj8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17264 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust164.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.164]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00690; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:10:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C818EA.7D77 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:13:30 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bakealamos juno.com Subject: Murray: Eighth Miley critique; Bush SIMS Fe-57 anomaly; Merriman praise; Rothwell apology Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust45.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.45]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22563; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:47:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C67B9D.38C3 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:50:05 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sphkoji sci.shizuoka.ac.jp Subject: Murray: Eighth Miley critique; Bush SIMS Fe-57 anomaly; Merriman praise; Rothwell apology.] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from rmforall.earthlink.net (1Cust232.tnt23.dfw5.da.uu.net [208.254.197.232]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA25627; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:49:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <347A5926.6334 earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:50:46 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-L eskimo.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, rbrtbass pahrump.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, storms ix.netcom, dashj@sbii.sb2.pdx.edu, jdunn@ctc.org, wireless rmii.com, bhorst@loc100.tandem.com, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, jlagarde cyberaccess.fr, blue@pilot.msu.edu, jonesse@astro.byu.edu, drom vxcern.cern.ch, droege@fnal.gov, dennis@wazoo.com, halfox slkc.uswest.net, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, mike_mckubre@qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied@sage.dri.edu, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, tchubb@aol.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, jaeger eneaco-usa.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, rdeagleton csupomona.edu, 76002.1473@compuserve.com, biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr, Bennett.Miller@mailgw.er.doe.gov, bockris acs.tamu.edu, jjones@ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, JNaudin509 aol.com, nick7@itl.net, shkedi@bose.com, rooster mail.utexas.edu, lentin@imaginet.fr, ceti_gcollins@msn.com Subject: Murray: Eighth Miley critique; Bush SIMS Fe-57 anomaly; Merriman praise; Rothwell apology. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nov. 24, 1997 Hi Mike Carrell, I've been writing my critiques seriously, and am sure that they are largely correct, and comprise a invaluable contribution, if the cold fusion field is ever going to make any substantial progress. I'm asking you to to consider seriously that my many critiques have considerable merit, so I'm sending you this Eighth Miley Critique of Sept. 10, which presents only a fraction of the many problems I found in the two Miley preprints. My simple, obvious analysis of his prerun data shows the actual accuracy of his isotopic measurements, close to his claimed accuracy. Note that I did not bring up the issues of H and D compounds in the postrun data, which surely would invalidate any claims that actual isotopic anomalies are involved: this was a major oversight on my part, because it was the debate on the Cincinnati Group data that first made me aware how common hydride interferences were, especially in postrun data on loaded metals. I made only one major concession: that there might be an anomaly for Ag-- but the Ag data for the other five runs are scattered over a wide range of values, with no pattern I can easily discern, with one value that is actually negative, indicating Ag removal! Can anyone provide independent confirmation of the exciting news that Russ George [rgeorge hooked.net] is collaborating with Arata and Zhang, and that both their He production results have been and are being confirmed at a major laboratory? This critique of a famous Bush and Eagleton report mentions prerun SIMS data that shows a strong Fe-57 anomaly, as does Miley's postrun SIMS data: surely this is a hydride interference in both cases. R Bush and R Eagleton, "Evidence for Electrolytically Induced Transmutation and Radioactivity Correlated with Excess Heat in Electrolytic Cells with Light Water Rubidium Salt Electrolytes," Trans. Fusion Technology, Dec., 1994, 26, p. 344-54, has a more adaquate pyrex closed cell with an internal platinum black recombiner, at 1.0 mA/cm2, but gives no data about the run history, except to say that the total excess heat for Cell 53 is (4.0 +- 0.8) X 10exp19 MeV. He does give four SIMS graphs: for mass 57 vs 56 we, after the obligatory doubling of the graphs via zerox, find pre-run values, about 60,000 to 300,000, ratio .2, and post-run, 200 to 6,000, ratio .03. So, the pre-run ratio is many times more anomalous than the post-run. Now, that's efficient research! No need to even run the electrolysis! This is a much more significant result than the claimed transmutation of rubidium to strontium, eh? Subject: Re: Murray: 1993 CETI cells; Order of the Tortoise Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 11:14:36 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics To: rmforall earthlink.net References: 1 Rich: I also find your critiques interesting, and like the little information gems you pluck from s.p.f and the web. I'd like to keep receiving them. You should also get a web site set up and maintain your own collection of CF related info. -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Subject: Apology to Rich Murray Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:47:42 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net; >INTERNET:mica world.std.com For once, Rich Murray caught me making a mistake. This is the first time, and it won't happen again. I am deeply embarrassed! Murray correctly points out that flow rates in one of the Patterson patents is absurdly low. I was looked at earlier data with static calorimetry, and at a later patent, #5,672,259 (Sept. 30, 1997). This is for radioactive deactivation. The flow rate is 10 ml/min. All of the Cravens data for small cells that I know of has a rate of 14.3 ml/min. This convenient number makes 1 deg C = 1 watt. 10 to 14 ml/min is still too low for good mixing. I recommend 24.6 ml/min (0.5 deg C = 1 watt). The very low flow rates will cause many problems, as Murray and Swartz have pointed out. For all I know, they may invite the "Bernard Instabilities" Swartz talks about. I have never tested a flow calorimeter at this extreme; I have no idea how well it calibrates or what it would do if you turned it sideways. My objections to Swartz's hypothesis were based on data from conventional flow rates, 10 to 60 ml/min (and, as I said, 10 ml is too low), or kilowatt cells at a liter per minute. When you push an instrument to extremes far outside the standard limits, factors which are normally insignificant sometimes come to the fore and dominate. Miles showed that with high precision static calorimeters where total output power is in the 10s of milliwatts, fluctuations from bubble formation and heat loss from the top of the cell begin to play a large role. At conventional power levels (0.5 to 10 watts) these factors are in the noise. Perhaps at extremely low flow rates Bernard Instabilities make a huge difference. I wouldn't know about that. I have only studied systems at conventional flow rates. Steve Jones pushed Ni cells in static calorimeters to extremes by running at power levels 1000 times lower than Mills. He demonstrated nearly 100% recombination, which is expected. He then extrapolated from these extreme conditions to make statements about performance at normal power levels, which is a no-no. You cannot scale something up or down a thousand times beyond conventional, well-understood levels and then draw conclusions from it. If Patterson's only data came from these low flow rates, I would not believe his results. Fortunately we have Cravens' data in ICCF4 and I.E. Patterson could not have measured anything at these low flow rates with his earlier configuration. He must have insulated the cell and the outlet tube and put the thermocouple close to the outlet. Why he would publish such marginal, questionable data is beyond me. I have heard that people do this sort of thing to get a patent without alerting the competition to the importance of the invention. You publish your least impressive data. Patterson himself once mentioned that technique. I must admit this raises Rich Murray's score. He was zero in 200 before, he now got something right. Mea culpa. Jed. Subject: Re: Apology to Rich Murray Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:36:50 -0600 From: Rich Murray Organization: Room For All To: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> References: 1 Nov. 24, 1997 Dear all, and especially Jed Rothwell, Apology happily accepted! You can keep your gun and horse to resume farming back home. I enjoyed your discussion of technical details about flow calorimetry-- that is very helpful. I appreciate being alerted to the patent tactic of publicizing one's least informative measurements. As one, Rich Subject: 1993 CETI cell flow calorimetry Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:12:43 -0800 Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:13:44 -0600 From: Rich Murray Organization: Room For All To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, rbrtbass@pahrump.com, ceti@msn.com, ceti_gcollins msn.com, g-miley@uiuc.edu, storms ix.netcom.com, dennis@wazoo.com Nov. 23, 1997 Dear all, I completely overlooked how tiny the 1993 CETI cell flow rates were-- my mind automatically kept thinking in terms of 10-15 ml/min flow rates. The cells clearly were run as electrolytic flow calorimetry, as Heat Out was calculated by "(delta T X FR)". So I was right about "flow dependent artifacts", but probably wrong that those results cast major asperations on other CF results involving flow. As one, Rich Murray From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 17:19:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24986; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:15:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:15:40 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:13:55 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Longitudinal force Hg rail gun, here you go; In-Reply-To: <199804020007.QAA29113 Au.oro.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lgIjK3.0.K66.wQk8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17265 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Ross Tessien wrote: -snip- > So there is a bunch of debate about longitudinal forces etc., and it is hard > to figure out how to set up an experiment to probe what is really going on. > How about this one: > > make a track consisting of two shallow grooves spaced close together. Fill > the grooves with Hg as "rails". Fabricate a sort of "pontoon boat" like a > rail gun clip to short circuit across the Hg rails such that the boat is > shaped like an H, where the center bridge of the H goes from one rail to the > other, and the two vertical lines of the H ride on top of the two Hg rails. > > The Hg will form into an approximately cylindrical shape due to surface > tension (arrgh), so make the shape of the H riding on top a sort of semi > circle pointing down over the Hg bead. > speaking of your (arrgh) surface tension... (see below) :) Tessien's Tension Trouble To Talk-about :) > > Then, pump current in and across and back down the rails like in any rail > gun. By driving a large fast current, the directions the Hg splatters ought > to tell you about the directions of the forces imposed on it. > > Don't do this in a residence or in a place that is inherently poorly > ventilated as Hg splatters are going to occur, and while the vapor pressure > is low, it is not zero (though miners used to boil off Hg on rainy days when > they couldn't work the gold mines, and yes, they did it in their tents to > keep out of the rain! Not to say it didn't drive them "Mad as a Hatter", as > another example of Hg poisoning if I recall) > > Have fun. Ross Tessien > > Ross, Is THE Longitudinal force 'exposed' (as it were) when the current is on? I'm trying to see your Aetric Wave bombardment on the Hg and trying to visualize the 'swell in the Hg'.. doesn't this mean all electrical propagation is 'stronger' than any incoming aethric wave.. (wave or tensil). ? If not, where could one look for an ANTI-Aethric 'swelling' /'dipping' where solitons WIN out all the time. #1 understood the Oceans surface is a 'classic example', but, can you invision a way to bring that to the work-bench?? This might be converted to an o/u pumping system. Would/Could this advance one of your promotions of aethric solitons? ------- Finally, besides spilling Hg (slosh/direction noted for experiment), Maybe Deeper groves or higher sides, I assume you 'predict' that "H" boat with curved skids will go round & round. Like a Fluid-Motor Rotor :) -FMR- :) Is this right?? (or left depending on +-) -=se=- p.s. Did you get to call/speak to art-bell yet? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 18:15:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17578; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:07:53 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:07:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:05:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199804020205.SAA09509 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Longitudinal force Hg rail gun, here you go; Resent-Message-ID: <"Tbcop.0.XI4.rBl8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17266 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve; > Is THE Longitudinal force 'exposed' (as it were) when the current is >on? I'm trying to see your Aetric Wave bombardment on the Hg and >trying to visualize the 'swell in the Hg'.. doesn't this mean all >electrical propagation is 'stronger' than any incoming aethric wave.. >(wave or tensil). ? If not, where could one look for an ANTI-Aethric >'swelling' /'dipping' where solitons WIN out all the time. #1 understood >the Oceans >surface is a 'classic example', but, can you invision a way to bring that >to the work-bench?? first of all, the wave energy of the aether aka spacetime, results in the strong nuclear forces as well as all forces. So I don't think in terms of some whispy medium that is only for propagation of light. Matter itself, is composed of waves in and of aether. Aether is all there is my friend! The difference between the various forces is as follows: Soliton to soliton = strong soliton exchange in / out, for composite solitonic structures = weak Soliton to spacetime to soliton = electric soliton to soliton across universe where waves are Doppler frequency shifted along the way = gravitation aether emission from fusion, ie exothermy, = aether flow = cosmological constant the first three are phase effects in local spacetime, all at the same spacetime frequency ~E45 hz, Planck scale. Phase interactions can lead to attractions, =phase opposition; or repulsions, = phase coherency (ie dislike charges attract and like charges repulse. Charge, is just a measure of phase angle relative to spacetimes undulations. gravitation is a filtering of incident wave energy coming from very far away where the matter in distant galaxies is moving away from us. Frequency mismatch can only be filtered out, and thus only imposes a thrust away from the source. But the sources are distant galaxies, not nearby planets or stars. So we are thrust toward other nearby objects with which we are in frequency match. And the cosmological constant (recently validated via SN observations), is due to bulk flow, ergo my threads, "Aether Tectonics" in the new theories news group. With the longitudinal force, you are dealing with the electric field. ie, soliton wave exchanges from soliton to spacetime to soliton, in local spacetime, ie all of the solitons are frequency coupled to local spacetime wave energy. But, "spacetime" is the power weighted sum of all wave energy incident upon a given region of the universe (ie your wires are a region in the universe). Most of the power is coming from matter throughout the earth, sun, MW etc. But some small amount of power is coming from the electrons in your apparatus, and so they in essence, curve spacetime locally. Yes, EM is also a spacetime curvature in a very real sense. When the electrons are accelerating, the waves from them are expanding and converging back in again at c. And while the balance of the universe is all happy, the electrons are experiencing an acceleration due to interaction with waves from the power source. So they are accelerated away from the incident wave energy down the length of the Hg conductor, across the H and back down the length of the other rail of Hg. the change in velocity of the electrons ought to, I think, impose a change in location of the spacetime nodes in the vicinity of the acceleration. That negative charge is accelerating creates a sort of precession of the spacetime nodes at 0 and 180 degrees, positive and negative respectively. Other electrons along the line of motion don't experience the rotation of the nodes as do other solitons moving orthogonal to the conductor. But, there should be an effective compression of the wave fronts ahead of the accelerating electrons. And this should, it seems to me, accelerate the other electrons ahead of the accelerating electrons in the same direction. But it may well be that the positive charges are accelerated backwards, thus offsetting the effect on the electrons and leading to a net zero longitudinal thrust. One might be able to separate positive and negative charge in a plasma though, such that e accelerates one way and protons accelerate the opposite way and at a reduced velocity so that the KE is the same for each. I have been trying to figure out the geometry of spacetime. Without that, it is hard to predict how the timing of arrival of wave fronts will work out in the longitudinal direction. I am working with 3 dimensional shapes, spheres donut tori, arranged in geometric patterns which are known from sphere packing and the Platonic solids. But the shapes I have to work with are dynamic, so I am trying to tile spacetime with dynamic compressible shapes. This might be converted to an o/u pumping system. > Would/Could this advance one of your promotions of aethric solitons? As I have said many times in the past, I highly doubt that ou is viable. When we confuse energy with mass, it becomes just a name without precise meaning. We can let our imaginations run wild with ou stuff. And I think this is a good thing, but for every million hours of wild ideas, there is one hour of thought that comes up with something radically new and useful. IMO, energy is aether in motion. We tend to think of energy as being either particles in motion, or mass, which is thought of as bottled up energy. If you work with a soliton, then mass is a measure of the density amplification of the soliton in a region of the universe. a swell on the ocean is the same thing. It is composed of lots of molecules all bashing about, and none particularly caring about the motions or trajectories of the others. It is the net group behavior that leads to the swell precessing across the ocean. Same thing for solitons and for particles and for mass. You see, like the swell, you cannot cut a soliton out of the ocean of aether. It is a density amplification locally. Therefore, to get some solitons accelerated so that you can slam them into something else and drive an impellor or a generator, what you have to do is to emit, or curve, the flow of aether. Fusion emits aether and the resulting solitons shoot out the excess aether and are accelerated. But to curve the flow of aether is another story I don't know yet if it is possible. I gave you the way to do it a while ago, but the technology is not easy to come by. >------- > Finally, besides spilling Hg (slosh/direction noted for >experiment), Maybe Deeper groves or higher sides, I >assume >you 'predict' that "H" boat with curved skids will go round & round. > Like a Fluid-Motor Rotor :) -FMR- :) > >Is this right?? (or left depending on +-) By curved, what I meant was like a pontoon boat, slice the pontoons in half along a horizontal line, throw away the bottom half and you have a half cylinder open downward. Thus, such a cylinder will couple nicely to the mercury bead giving the boat locational and directional stability despite being on a fluid. But the two beads of mercury cannot be touching one another except via the short of the boat. Otherwise, the current is not forced to travel down one bead, across the boat, and back up the other bead. That is how a rail gun works. The question is, will the bead of Hg experience a longitudinal force or not? And these are single shot experiments, not continusously operating ones. So these are potentially good for proving theory, but I expect worthless as far as ou is concerned. If the individual particles, nuclei and electrons each experience a longitudinal thrust, but in opposite directions, the Hg may appear not to demonstrate any longitudinal thrust. Did you get to call/speak to art-bell yet? Not yet. Did he actually send you the email, or was that an error and the email had just been returned to you unsent???? Anyway, keep on sending the email to him and sooner or later he will have me on. I figure as soon as I get the drafts of the book ready I can drive down there to meet with him as it is just a day away in NV. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 18:36:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22013; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:33:27 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:33:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3522F8A4.573B interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:32:04 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: BINGO TEST- MARINOV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d6y872.0.pN5.nZl8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17267 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK, Horace, here's what I could do: To save work I won't draw the 3.1" dia. copper ring (even as a square!). _________ __|_________|__<---- typ. 2 places, 3/8" | | | | thick x 1 1/2" wide | |W| | steel side caps | N |O| S | (+)---->-----| |O| |---------> 35 to 40 amp | |D| | | | | | |______|_|______| |_________| Still no sign of torque, Horace! I remeasured the brush break-loose torque at about 29 gm-cm. It has run-in a bit since last time. Just for kicks, I removed one steel cap and tried that - still no sign of torque. In case it was lost in the noise, the original configuration had 1/4" steel caps on the magnet surfaces parallel to this page. No run. While I'm here Horace, have you - or anyone - thought of any schemes we could try using coils of wire to get large amp-turns of current without large supply currents? It wouldn't be too hard to wind a hoop coil integral with 2 slip rings to feed in the current. How does 1000 turns at 1 amp - or even 0.1 amp hit you? What if we just put the coil around a bar magnet - would we see any LF in the coil? I think Robert S., and perhaps others, mentioned rings of batteries? An octagon of AA nickel-cad batteries might be interesting. Any configuration with a high current feed in and out seems to cloud the picture. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 18:46:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24071; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:42:09 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:42:09 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:39:56 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vortex Charter In-Reply-To: <199803311713.JAA32725 slave2.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"g3OKV3.0.wt5.yhl8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17268 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Michael T Huffman wrote: > never mentioned it. Schaeffer's name is spelled incorrectly. It's not a > real big deal, and I'm pretty terrible when it comes even to remembering > names, let alone spelling them correctly. Nobody's ever discussed Schaeffer > except me, and besides Jed, Gene, Bill and myself, (maybe Scott remembers > him) I don't think anyone on this list even knows who he was. He does have > surviving family members, however, and out of respect to his family, I would > like to see the charter corrected. -Knuke Done. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 18:55:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12505; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:52:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:52:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3522FD07.41C8 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:50:47 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Longitudinal force Hg rail gun, here you go; References: <199804020007.QAA29113 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zG-Bz2.0.F33.brl8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17269 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > > The Hg will form into an approximately cylindrical shape due to surface > tension (arrgh), so make the shape of the H riding on top a sort of semi > circle pointing down over the Hg bead. Darn, Ross, I like this rail "boat"! It would probably go really nice with just 100 amps or so from what I've seen from my Marinov tinkering. Would make a neat toy - too bad Hg is so toxic. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 18:57:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13293; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:55:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:55:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:55:21 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: William Beaty Subject: The End Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"l9oPf3.0.JF3.Vul8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17270 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The liquid bismuth nonlinear homopolar quadrature wave acoustic device I've been working on in secret for years is finally putting out 137watts of excess energy per hour. The financial sources I've been dealing with insist that I discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE HOBBYIST off the web to maintain a low profile. Say your goodbyes quick, it's all over at midnight PST. Happy 4/1 ! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 19:03:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27688; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:59:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:59:42 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:57:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Takahashi: beam on this time (forwarded) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1QVFb.0.Em6.Myl8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17271 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:20:43 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Sub: Takahashi: beam on this time I posted incorrect information about the recent experiments reported by A. Takahashi. In his previous experiments he looked for neutrons. He turned the beam off and then looked, to avoid detecting neutrons from conventional d-d fusion, which occurs when an incoming deuteron slams into one already in the lattice. In the present experiments, however, he is looking for charged particles, which do not have this problem. He explained to me: . . . the beam was turned on during the entire run of charged-particle spectroscopy. We did not show the data after turning off the beam, but the count rate after beam-off was as small as 1 count/hour and negligibly small level compared to the rate (1 count/sec) of "anomalous events" during beam-on. We did not touch the problem after beam-off in the papers. By the way, we did not measure neutrons this time. Silicon Surface Barrier Detectors (SSBD) are almost insensitive to 2.45MeV neutrons by d-d reactions . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 19:10:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15636; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:05:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:05:05 -0800 From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 03:00:58 GMT Message-ID: <3528ff4c.15620357 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_rtjb2.0.8q3.U1m8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17273 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:55:21 -0800 (PST), William Beaty wrote: >The liquid bismuth nonlinear homopolar quadrature wave acoustic device >I've been working on in secret for years is finally putting out 137watts >of excess energy per hour. The financial sources I've been dealing with >insist that I discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE >HOBBYIST off the web to maintain a low profile. > >Say your goodbyes quick, it's all over at midnight PST. Bill, That would be 137.036watts I guess :-) -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 19:11:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29641; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:05:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:05:30 -0800 (PST) From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The End Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:59:34 GMT Message-ID: <3527fe69.15392663 kcbbs.gen.nz> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X73kU3.0.tE7.o1m8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17272 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Assuming that Bill's email is not an April Fool's joke (which I strongly suspect that it is) then I suggest all moving to KeelyNet-L lists.kz Hey! What about moving anyway and the joke will be on Bill :-) Hey Bill, it is already April 2nd here! -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 19:31:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04419; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:26:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:26:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:18:32 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: William Beaty Subject: LBNHQWAD......Re: The End In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"eNX901.0.n41.rLm8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17274 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Adding the vowels .... Lob Neah Qi Wald Yeah? J On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, William Beaty wrote: > > The liquid bismuth nonlinear homopolar quadrature wave acoustic device > I've been working on in secret for years is finally putting out 137watts > of excess energy per hour. The financial sources I've been dealing with > insist that I discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE > HOBBYIST off the web to maintain a low profile. > > Say your goodbyes quick, it's all over at midnight PST. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Happy 4/1 ! > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 20:13:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00333; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:10:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:10:14 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <006e01bd5dec$c53e4760$428cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Jet Impingement O/U & Luminescence Effects? Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:06:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"qvrxV2.0.x4.Z-m8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17275 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A small diameter jet of water, hydrogen,or other hydrogenous materials impinging at high velocity on a glass plate, may show luminescence and possible O/U effects. Roughly for water: velocity = (2gh)^1/2 (ft/sec) and Q = A(2gh)^1/2 (ft^3/sec). 2,000 psig from a gas cylinder pressurizing a small vessel of water with a small orifice would save the cost of a hydraulic pump.Then again a $12.00 grease gun might serve the purpose.Beware of "Road Rage" while you're pushing your shopping cart around K-Mart. :-) SAFETY WARNING:Either should give a jet velocity of around 500 ft/sec, that could put out an eye or fill ones veins with a lethal dose of the liquid or gas. They use a water jet at around 50,000 psi to cut through several inches of steel.Clean as a whistle,too. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 20:26:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03523; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:23:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:23:08 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35225A39.5D98 interlaced.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:10:18 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Resent-Message-ID: <"3ApMM2.0.Es.k9n8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17277 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Well, sure, Rick! - But not if it's > a "fake" one, right? If a fake-out is what's leading people to believe there's a longitudinal force, and there really isn't a longitudinal force, then I think that's what we want. I want a UFO drive as badly as the next Fringie. But I want a real one, or none at all. > [...]suffering from a bad case of > brass-foundrymans-ague [...] LOL - pretty accurate image Frank! Add urethane resin to what's left of my hair, and you've got it. > Horace, now Rick's trying to tie this all in to the > electron-cyclotron-violation-of-the- second-law. I know, I'm sorry; it was an irristible notion. That one seemed to jump right out at me. In the ordering of crud posts infecting lists like this, right behind spam and flames, comes these *long* pieces about "what a photon really is", or "what goes on inside a black hole" by some zit faced little 4-eyed plebe who just smoked his first joint and for a second there thought he might have had a thought. Mea culpa (-zits, -joint, +coffee). If Tinsley were here he'd be making me feel about this " tall right now, and I'd deserve it. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 20:26:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03544; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:23:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:23:08 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:47:22 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"JFrkw2.0._s.3An8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17278 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > This is a cool test, but due to the Lorentz force on the > brush supply, it doesn't prove anything. The force > could be purely between the magnets and the power > supply line preceeding the split point - or not. It > doesn't say anything about the force on the wires after > the split point. Ok...here a side view of a setup. Supply lines might be set up vertical from table, rod sits on v-rollers like model train wheels on the ends of the supply line (I'd try to use small solder cups if I physically tried this). ____ | N | end of bar magnet, fringe field N |____| going through connection. ________________________________________ wire rod free to roll left or right. o o | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | + - Which way does the wire rod slide? It should also be pushed down against the roller wheel on top of the '+' supply, but is constrained to only left or right motion anyway. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 20:26:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03484; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:23:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:23:10 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:02:34 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"lGQf22.0.yr.h9n8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17276 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - Now that's getting us somewhere. There's a thin wire with *no* significant radial currents at all, as far as I can tell from your setup. > This, of course confirms the radial force theory of > ring rotation IF YOU CAN CONFIRM the radial current > existing in the ring brush region. Why do we even need radial current as long as we have the magnetic fields superimposing to make a field shaped 'as if' there were some radial currents? Consider the simple cross-rod rail gun analogy where there's a conductive roller lying across two supply rails connected to "+" and "-". The current takes a 90 degree turn where it goes from a supply rail to the roller. The field around the supply rail is a straight tube of circular flux, and the flux around the roller piece likewise, but turned 90 degrees. There's no significant 'radial' components of the current involved with the roller where the current takes a sharp square turn. The supply rod is pure 'radial' current here, but it's fixed and unmovable; we're interested in the force on the roller. Where the two flux tubes surrounding these two conductors merge, the fields superimpose to create a 'new' field, one having components that repel both the roller and the rail at a 45 degree angle - at the left corner pushing the rail to the left and backwards, the roller to the right and forwards. The side forces on the roller are cancelled by the other rail, but the longitudinal forces combine and push the roller down the rails. In the Marinov motor, the back-to-back angles at the brush connection oppose and cancel each other. But when you have that other magnet there to warp and unbalance the formerly symmetrical and static situation, there goes the ring - or your cart. It's the forward/backward forces that we like for rail guns, the left/right forces we like for Marinov motors. In either case you do net a longitudinal force, and yet it's perfectly conventional. And again taking the risk here, can you see how a large number of very tiny versions of such forces in a single piece of straight conductor could account for the phenomena which sends people off on a quest for some missing longitudinal component of EM? You're right. Maybe I should try decaf. It's beginning to look to me like there may be no Longitudinal Force, but there clearly are longitudinal forces. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 21:23:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18170; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:21:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:21:27 -0800 Message-ID: <35233A1D.3798 keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:11:25 -0800 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End References: <3527fe69.15392663 kcbbs.gen.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0WU6E.0.mR4.L1o8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17279 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Gnorts Ray et al! Ray Tomes wrote; > I suggest all moving to KeelyNet-L lists.kz God forbid, couldn't handle the traffic and vortex would be sorely missed.....Bill was funnin' Ray, tis the season and all that... I can't imagine Bill selling out that easily despite the tongue-in-cheeck Watsonian comment of; > The financial sources I've been dealing with insist that I > discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE HOBBYIST > off the web to maintain a low profile. If that happens, one of my icons would surely have fallen........ -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 21:27:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28199; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:25:14 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:25:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35232EFD.5D76BD76 ihug.co.nz> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:23:58 +1200 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"b6JGY2.0.Xu6.u4o8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17280 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April fools was yesterday! It is already the 2nd of april over here (NZ) and been that way for 17 hours. William Beaty wrote: > The liquid bismuth nonlinear homopolar quadrature wave acoustic device > I've been working on in secret for years is finally putting out 137watts > of excess energy per hour. The financial sources I've been dealing with > insist that I discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE > HOBBYIST off the web to maintain a low profile. > > Say your goodbyes quick, it's all over at midnight PST. > > Happy 4/1 ! > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 21:36:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20402; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:34:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:34:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980401232633.008f9e60 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:26:33 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: RIFEX report! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zP3D31.0.h-4.aDo8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17281 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: We have finally released our RIFEX kit report. My apologies for the interminable delay. We have made substantial changes to the report in response to Dr. Miley's valuable critique. It is now up on our web page (in the Experiments, Reports Section) , as a PKzipped Word 97 .doc file. If you've got a PC with Word 97 and a Laserjet printer, you're in. Same rig with an inkjet printer will work probably just as well but there might just be one or two awkward paginations. Joe Champion offered to make a .pdf file and I'll post that ASAP. That should allow the Mac enthusiasts to get the report, too. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 1 23:43:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08848; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:42:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:42:03 -0800 From: atech ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980402024255.00c18094 popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: atech popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:42:55 +0000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End Resent-Message-ID: <"HpSaf2.0.5A2.A5q8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17282 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill & Jerry; Do you think it might be possible to label the messages so that they would be easier to sort? Regards; Dennis At 11:11 PM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote: >Gnorts Ray et al! > >Ray Tomes wrote; >> I suggest all moving to KeelyNet-L lists.kz > >God forbid, couldn't handle the traffic and vortex would be sorely >missed.....Bill was funnin' Ray, tis the season and all that... > >I can't imagine Bill selling out that easily despite the tongue-in-cheeck >Watsonian comment of; > >> The financial sources I've been dealing with insist that I >> discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE HOBBYIST >> off the web to maintain a low profile. > >If that happens, one of my icons would surely have fallen........ >-- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 00:11:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13351; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:10:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:10:17 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 01:08:33 -0700 (MST) From: Steve Ekwall X-Sender: ekwall2 november To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Longitudinal force Hg rail gun, here you go; In-Reply-To: <199804020205.SAA09509 Au.oro.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6meec.0.XG3.dVq8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17283 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Ross Tessien wrote: >> I wrote: >> Did you get to call/speak to art-bell yet? > > Not yet. Did he actually send you the email, or was that an error and the > email had just been returned to you unsent???? > Yep, "HE" actually sent me that email request, short and simple about sending him a contact number for "YOU". I wouldn't presume to be a contact for you with him .. so I HOPED you would've use the same header and just given him (only) your voice number... most guest are interviewed over the telephone line... (not in studio as it were)... he's an old ham radio operator and lives in a trailer in the middle of no-where if you listen to him describe it.. So, I just Fowarded it to you to let you know that HE wants YOUR contact number!! (Must've been my brilliant description in the body of the message of your push-gravity and aethric wave solitons that got his attention, .. hope the fact that /imighthavementionedthat youwouldmakeeinsteinlooklikechildsplay is ok? :} but, he did send that reply for your #. oh, imighthavesaidsomeotherthingstoo,buti'msureyoucan handleitok..it'saprettywild&openforum..hey,yourtheonewhosaidbulkwritehim:):):):):) Good book promo's to you, -=se=- steve (looking foward to you on his show SOON:) ekwall ekwall2 diac.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 02:30:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28476; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:27:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 02:27:28 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00d901bd5e21$69b456c0$428cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Jerry W. Decker" Cc: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Jet Impingement O/U & Luminescence Effects? Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 03:22:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"CxALx.0.ky6.FWs8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17284 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jerry W. Decker To: Frederick J. Sparber Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Jet Impingement O/U & Luminescence Effects? Jerry Decker wrote: >Hi Frederick! > >There is an experiment called the 'wasserfadden' (water fountain) which >requires water streaming at greater than 90psi through a small needle. >The water is directed downward into an insulated bucket. > >The forced separation of the water produces high voltage (Lenard effect) >that ionizes the water and causes a levitating orbiting mist of water >that orbits around the nozzle and glows pale blue in a dark room. > >In this particular experiment, the glow is simple ionization and should >not be mistaken for true sonoluminscence. I'm not so sure about that explanation, Jerry. It requires almost 13 ev to ionize water and the streaming potential are usually in the millivolt range. I cooked up this approach because I see this as a way to shove electrons in close to the hydrogen nucleus to create Quasi-Neutrons (or Hydrinos)which should cause energy release of up to 2.0 Kev or so, some of which should be visible as a "blue glow". > >I've seen this done by Walter Baumgartner in LA and had a bad photocopy >of the orbiting ring. The healthier the water (higher the zeta >potential, i.e. ability to hold electrical charge), the more vivid and >intense the effect. > >Water knives, which use water projected at 40,000 psi and higher, have to >use grounding cables to pull off the high voltage that accumulates at the >nozzle. > >In the late 1900's, this effect was used to easily produce high voltage. Thanks Jerry. Would that be now? :-) Regards, Frederick >-- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 06:09:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26163; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:05:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:05:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 05:10:18 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Resent-Message-ID: <"poRBr1.0.iO6.fiv8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17286 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:10 AM 4/1/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >Mea culpa (-zits, -joint, +coffee). > >If Tinsley were here he'd be making me feel about this " tall right now, >and I'd deserve it. Take it easy! Don't for get this was one of Chris' favorite topics. I think he would have loved your experiments! Rick, it sounds like you are about as burned out on this stuff as I am. I don't now about you but I'm going to give it a rest for a bit. Time to regroup and do some careful figuring. Also, my son has been accepted at some more universities, and is due to hear more very shortly. The college crazies are soon about to come to an end for us when he decides where he is going to school, but this is an important time for the family. Bailing out longitudinally, Horace From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 06:10:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26146; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:05:36 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:05:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 05:10:14 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: BINGO TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"JKIGV1.0.GO6.civ8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17285 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:32 PM 4/1/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >OK, Horace, here's what I could do: > >To save work I won't draw the 3.1" dia. copper ring (even as a square!). > > _________ > __|_________|__<---- typ. 2 places, 3/8" > | | | | thick x 1 1/2" wide > | |W| | steel side caps > | N |O| S | > (+)---->-----| |O| |---------> 35 to 40 amp > | |D| | > | | | | > |______|_|______| > |_________| > >Still no sign of torque, Horace! I remeasured the brush break-loose >torque at about 29 gm-cm. It has run-in a bit since last time. >Just for kicks, I removed one steel cap and tried that - still no sign >of torque. >In case it was lost in the noise, the original configuration had 1/4" >steel caps on the magnet surfaces parallel to this page. No run. This is disappointing, and creates a lot of doubts in a number of areas for me. However, I think it is really important information. Thanks, for your efforts. With some quantitative brackets on performance, this test alone, replicated, might be sufficient to put an end to the Ampere-Biot vs Lorentz controversy. The only thing I can think of to salvage this, other than stronger magnets, is revving up the rpm's artificially, powering up to "breakeven". Real long shot either of those things will work. I might have actually bet money (a rarity) that those plates would work. Now I am wondering about how Jeff Koositra does it. I seem to have lost my I.E. #17, assuming it arrived, which I now think maybe it did, so I don't even know what he published. I've been looking all over the house for it. The important thing here is getting quantitative estimates of exactly what we should be seeing. I really need to take some time to focus on the Biot FEA progam. > >While I'm here Horace, have you - or anyone - thought of any schemes >we could try using coils of wire to get large amp-turns of current >without large supply currents? Yes, I posted one idea, but it involved a permanent magnet armature and current switching, or magnet flipping. No dependence on a longitudinal force. No other ideas at the moment. I'm bailing out on discussion for a while to do some code. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 06:43:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04647; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:39:48 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:39:48 -0800 (PST) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <35b1155d.3523a294 aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:37:06 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"fX_sd2.0.U81.eCw8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17287 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Nothing much to report. I visited the gas supplier yesterday morning but the hydrogen regulator is still not in. Got the argon tank and it's regulator so I thinking maybe to start the thermistor calibration runs this weekend using just the argon. I want to see how hot the tube wall gets with an arc: (1) with just vacuum (2) with argon at various pressures (3) with hydrogen at various pressures before I introduce any potassium into the system. At least I can get started on the boring part of the experiment, the calibration, but it has to be done. It's frustrating waiting around for the needed supplies. I did find and fix a small but bad vacuum leak in the plumbing. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 08:33:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26717; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:23:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:23:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:00:13 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End In-Reply-To: <35233A1D.3798 keelynet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sZHcq3.0.LX6.ljx8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17290 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Jerry W. Decker wrote: > I can't imagine Bill selling out that easily despite the tongue-in-cheeck > Watsonian comment of; > > > The financial sources I've been dealing with insist that I > > discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE HOBBYIST > > off the web to maintain a low profile. Not Watsonian in particular, since ALL overunity projects seem always to end that way (well, those that don't are rare.) Hubbard coil, Hendershot device, Sweet VTA, MRA, even CETI, etc. After all, Secrets Must Be Kept, right? Recall the following... ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:11:40 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Prometheus game (fwd) On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Zack Widup wrote: > "Entering research to tap the zero-point energy is playing > what I call the Prometheus game. In mythology, Prometheus gave > fire to man, and for this the Gods punished him for eternity. An > inventor who believes he alone is giving 'free energy' to mankind > is a pawn in this game. If his invention is successful, he will > find himself under attack and ridicule. How can one safely play > and win the game?" > > "The answer lies within your higher self. Ask yourself > the following question: If you were an angel who had the knowledge > to seed the discovery of free energy on planet earth, would you love > this planet and its beings enough to share your gift without any > reward or recognition? If you can answer yes, then you are a master > of the Prometheus game and you will find, as I have, that wonderful, > synchronistic events and experiences accrue that yield inspiration > and guidance. For in actuality you ARE that angel." ... Excellent quote! The "free energy" arena is like no other. The forces arrayed against its development create a set of rules which is very different than those of a mature field where new discoveries are logical extentions of earlier ones. "Free energy" work is more akin to the discovery of human flight than to the creation of useful products. If we look at the details of the history of the Wrights, we find that their discovery was ALMOST suppressed. Numerous other inventors were building devices, but they were based on some faulty wing research and none of them worked well. At the same time, mainstream science was sneering at all these obviously ignorant flying machine inventors. Claims of success were met with accusations of hoax and refusal to inspect evidence. The Wrights spent more than a year testing their device in an open field near highways and rail lines, yet the local papers published nothing, refused to send reporters to check the story, and treated the many questioning letters from the public as a nusiance. The Scientific American and NY Herald rejected the Wrights' claims as hoaxes, saying that, if their claims were real, it would already be in all the papers.(!) Scientists turned away, referring to Newcomb's science paper which proved that flight was impossible using known power supplies. What broke the barriers? Breaking of secrecy, for one. The Wrights published their early glider designs in a flying-machine inventor's magazine. Numerous hobbyists, mostly in France, started building boxkite-winged machines based on the articles and on their early glider patent, and making straight line flights of many hundreds of feet. The presence of this crude, simple competition forced the Wrights to finally take their plane before the public in France, which caused a worldwide uproar and opened the floodgates. They became famous beyond their wildest dreams, but financially they only did well, and did not attain fabulous riches. I'm fairly convinced that, had the Wrights stayed secretive, pursued riches, and never published, they probably would have taken their secrets to the grave. The barriers against new discoveries are that strong. Many modern inventors would say that the Wrights made a mistake, they should have kept their secret, that screwed-up mankind didn't deserve to attain flight if inventors are not paid for their work. But this just plays into the hands of the closeminded forces and destroys the dream. The way I see it, there are several options for a free energy inventor: 1. Demand payment before releasing secrets. Attract ridicule and derision. Finally die, safe with the knowledge that no one stole your hard-won discoveries. 2. Demand payment before releasing secrets. Sell your secrets to those who want to prevent their release, or to those whose greed makes them incompetent at developing the ideas. You've got your money, and the world will never benefit from your discovery. 3. Fight for inventor's rights. But this is a losing proposition in regards to your invention, since winning this battle takes more than one lifetime. If you have an amazing discovery yourself, your energies are split, and the conflict of interest may lose you both the fight for rights and the fight to sell your works. Better to go into patent politics fulltime. 4. Release detailed instructions for reproducing your discoveries. But people will mostly ignore you: witness all the patents which now gather dust in the archives. The few who attempt to duplicate your device will most likely make a mistake, fail, and assume that the invention was bogus to begin with. More is needed. Spend all your time developing simple kits which can be built by anyone, which always work, and which demonstrate obvious phenomena which cannot be explained away by skeptics. Then SELL the kits. Write construction articles and get them published in hobbyist magazines. Spread your articles and instructions all over internet. Give personal help to any who try building your devices. Tunnel under the walls of skepticism and collapse them, rather than attacking them at their strongest points as is done in 1, 2, and 3. Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are that good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. - Howard Aiken .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-781-3320 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/ Seattle, WA 98117 billb eskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 08:39:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26417; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:22:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:22:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:17:46 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End In-Reply-To: <35233A1D.3798 keelynet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"egqOO3.0.aS6.pix8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17289 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Jerry W. Decker wrote: > Gnorts Ray et al! > > Ray Tomes wrote; > > I suggest all moving to KeelyNet-L lists.kz > > God forbid, couldn't handle the traffic and vortex would be sorely > missed.....Bill was funnin' Ray, tis the season and all that... Jeeze, what would have happened if I replaced my site with "THIS SITE IS SHUT DOWN IN ACCORD WITH SECRECY ORDER 31415926" :) Seems that our international subscribers missed the reference to Pacific Standard Time. There were still hours and hours of "fool" left here in Seattle. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 08:56:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19345; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:51:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:51:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:49:18 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End In-Reply-To: <3528ff4c.15620357 kcbbs.gen.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Xlvid3.0.Ak4.XFx8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17288 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Ray Tomes wrote: > Bill, That would be 137.036watts I guess :-) Yes... per hour! ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 09:21:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05998; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:03:42 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:03:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3523A7D2.2383 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:59:30 -0500 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BINGO TEST- MARINOV References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pM9wC3.0.TT1.GJy8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17291 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > > I'm bailing out on discussion for a while to do some code. > Me too, Horace - let the solder pots cool down Rick! I'll post any new stuff I stumble over in the dark! Good luck with the university business, Horace. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 10:24:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21941; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:10:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:10:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3523C6B3.6AEA earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:11:15 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmforall earthlink.net, Vortex-L@eskimo.com, yekim@physics.purdue.edu, storms ix.netcom.com, cgbeaudett@aol.com, akito@nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp, szpak nosc.mil, bossp@nosc.mil, dashj@psu4.pdx.edu, jstanly mse.ogi.edu, dg@cco.caltech.edu, collis@netcity.it, ell lanl.gov, Flavio.Fontana@pirelli.com, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, knuke aa.net, jdunn@ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, editor infinite-energy.com, barry@math.ucla.edu, mikec@snip.net, mica world.std.com, little@eden.com, puthoff@aol.com, peter itim.org.soroscj.ro, jchampion@transmutation.com, aki ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n@lanl.gov, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno athena.qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73@aol.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov@srdlan.npi.msu.su, shellied sage.dri.edu, droege@fnal.gov, tchubb@aol.com, chubb ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, jaeger@eneco-usa.com, cincygrp ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall@ix.netcom.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.ln.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net Subject: CF: Little: CETI RIFEX transmutation abstract 04/02/98 References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earthlink.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6@earthli nk.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E27F36.156@earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EADEA7.1CF3@earthlink.net> <34ED164 8.168C earthlink.net> <34EDE6E0.5C23@earthlink.net> <34EE024C.3E82@earthlink.net> <34F1946E.4897@earthlink.net> <34F237E4.7DF5@earthlink.net> <34F36D92.7482@earthlink.net> <34F6F61E.7D86@earthlink.net> <34F6F8AA.1837@earthlink.net> <34F73CC1.437D@earthlin k.net> <34F73E74.655 earthlink.net> <34F8C76A.74D0@earthlink.net> <34FEFD1A.5D33@earthlink.net> <3501CB77.7E3@earthlink.net> <3501CC8C.1074@earthlink.net> <350200D5.F6E@earthlink.net> <3504077A.4714@earthlink.net> <35048733.! 2BD4 earthlink.net> <3507265A.6688@earthlink..net> <3507E849..71E9@earthlink..net> <3507F075.5FAF@earthlink.net> <3509754E.71A@earthlink.net> <350B46CB.738D@earthlink.net> <350D875E.5C59@earthlink.net> <350DAD0F.535F@earthlink.net> <350EF2C0.638F@earthli nk.net> <350F1C98.6C7C earthlink.net> <350FE66B.74C2@earthlink.net> <3511F4E8.12B5@earthlink.net> <35129B81.6DB7@earthlink.net> <3512DE75.2B4E@earthlink.net> <3513C4D6.207D@earthlink.net> <351467AE.524F@earthlink.net> <35146962.45DB@earthlink.net> <351516 76.330F earthlink.net> <3515D3D7.4EEF@earthlink.net> <3515FDDC.3919@earthlink.net> <35166389.35FD@earthlink.net> <3516808F.7FAD@earthlink.net> <35168284.325A@earthlink.net> <35173624.F60@earthlink.net> <35173888.2F66@earthlink.net> <3517D0D2.576B@earthlin k.net> <3517D8AC.15FE earthlink.net> <35191A32.79D0@earthlink.net> <35192280.59F7@earthlink.net> <351927C2.1C1C@earthlink.net> <35197EE9.6774@earthlink.net> <351983F1.52DC@earthlink.net> <351A738A.59CE@earthlink.net> <351A74! 6E.67E9 earthlink.net> <351ADCAD.78D2@earthlink.net> <351BAFC3.7B8B@ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dPfF02.0.YM5.BIz8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17292 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: March 2, 1998 abstract only [33 pages in report] http://www.eden.com/~little/new.htm We have finally released our RIFEX kit report. My apologies for the interminable delay. We have made substantial changes to the report in response to Dr. Miley's valuable critique. It is now up on our web page (in the Experiments, Reports Section) , as a PKzipped Word 97 .doc file. If you've got a PC with Word 97 and a Laserjet printer, you're in. Same rig with an inkjet printer will work probably just as well, but there might just be one or two awkward paginations. Joe Champion offered to make a .pdf file and I'll post that ASAP. That should allow the Mac enthusiasts to get the report, too. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little Search for Evidence of Nuclear Transmutations in the CETI RIFEX Kit Scott Little and H. E. Puthoff, Ph.D., EarthTech International, Inc 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin, TX 78759 Abstract A series of experiments has been performed with the CETI RIFEX kit. In each experiment an electrolytic cell with a cathode composed of metal-coated plastic beads was operated for two weeks. The cathode beads were then analyzed by x-ray fluorescence for evidence of nuclear transmutations. Several elements were observed to appear in the reacted beads. Analyses of the electrolyte and other components of the system in contact with the electrolyte are not conclusive but suggest to us that these elements were present in the system initially. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 10:36:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14072; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:33:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:33:10 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste css.mot.com Message-Id: <3523D9C0.655D7699 css.mot.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 12:32:32 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX report! References: <3.0.5.32.19980401232633.008f9e60 mail.eden.com> <3523B4E7.65FF1402@css.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"oUxo41.0.lR3.Zdz8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17293 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > It is now up on our web page (in the Experiments, Reports Section) , as a > > PKzipped Word 97 .doc file. If you've got a PC with Word 97 and a Laserjet > > printer, you're in. Same rig with an inkjet printer will work probably > > just as well but there might just be one or two awkward paginations. Scott, If you already have the report in Word97, why don't you just save it in HTML format instead of DOC format?? It is my favorite new option in the 'save as' menu. Word97 does all the work for you including translating images into GIF format. Why go to PDF or risk transferring macro viruses if you don't have to? Just a suggestion. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tool Engineering Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 11:11:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25038; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:08:09 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:07:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Resent-Message-ID: <"8-piF.0.376.O8-8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17294 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Rick, it sounds like you are about as burned out on this > stuff as I am. I don't now about you but I'm going to > give it a rest for a bit. Yup, you're right. Gotta do taxes, gotta go work for the $ to pay 'em, and neither thing happens when I sit here chatting with you folks on Vortex, much as I enjoy it though! It's back to the salt mines then, until the next intriguing little widget comes up. By the way, I'm hearing that a number of people have built that GIT inertial drive gizmo and it really works... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 11:58:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02497; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:55:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:55:19 -0800 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F088E xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:54:38 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"eR28z3.0.wc.bq-8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17295 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick UNFAIR! what is a GIT inertial device? Hank > ---------- > From: Rick Monteverde[SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 1998 11:07 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) > > Horace - > > > Rick, it sounds like you are about as burned out on this > > stuff as I am. I don't now about you but I'm going to > > give it a rest for a bit. > > Yup, you're right. Gotta do taxes, gotta go work for the $ to pay 'em, > and > neither thing happens when I sit here chatting with you folks on > Vortex, > much as I enjoy it though! It's back to the salt mines then, until the > next > intriguing little widget comes up. > > By the way, I'm hearing that a number of people have built that GIT > inertial drive gizmo and it really works... > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 12:34:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19424; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:30:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:30:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:27:10 -0500 From: Soo Subject: Re: MARINOV: test for Horace V1.1 (correction) Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804021527_MC2-38C7-EF09 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id MAA19363 Resent-Message-ID: <"QHZLW2.0.Ll4.IL_8r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17296 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I can vouch for that. I recall he was mightily impressed when he saw a message from Mr Monteverde describing some high voltage gizmo or other he was working on which necessitated Rick utilising an earth strap to protect his "delicate" areas. And it took a lot to impress that man. -Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 12:50:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11638; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:47:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:47:48 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001901bd5e78$3e723340$348cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Listening to Lightning (http://www.abcnews.com/sections/science/DailyNews/dye49 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:44:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD5E3D.865B7A80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"vUhb.0.lr2.pb_8r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17297 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD5E3D.865B7A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.abcnews.com/sections/science/DailyNews/dye49.html ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD5E3D.865B7A80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Listening to Lightning.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Listening to Lightning.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.abcnews.com/sections/science/DailyNews/dye49.html Modified=60A80B1A785EBD01C1 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BD5E3D.865B7A80-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 14:06:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04282; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:59:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:59:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <352433C7.1BDA bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 16:56:39 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: MGS to image "The Face" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"27JeG2.0.f21.le09r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17298 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, Vorts! MGS will image the Cydonia region Sunday. Too bad Chris did not live to see this. Mars Global Surveyor Imaging Schedule First opportunity Date Time (UTC/Pacific) Orbit Number Target Approximate Internet Posting 4-3-98 09:58/1:58 a.m. 216 Viking Lander 1 April 6 4-3-98 21:37/1:37 p.m. 217 Viking Lander 2 April 7 4-4-98 09:16/1:16 a.m. 218 Mars Pathfinder April 7 4-5-98 08:33/12:33 a.m. 220 Cydonia April 6 (mid-a.m.) It should be on the inet early morning Monday. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 14:13:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA30370; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:07:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:07:17 -0800 Message-ID: <352435F1.7ECF bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:05:53 -0800 From: "Terry J. Blanton" Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: MGS to image "The Face" References: <352433C7.1BDA bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ymTtc3.0.OQ7.Jm09r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17299 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry J. Blanton wrote: > > Gnorts, Vorts! > > MGS will image the Cydonia region Sunday. Too bad Chris did not live to > see this. > > Mars Global Surveyor Imaging Schedule > > First opportunity > Date Time > (UTC/Pacific) Orbit > Number Target Approximate > Internet > Posting > 4-3-98 09:58/1:58 a.m. 216 Viking Lander 1 April 6 > 4-3-98 21:37/1:37 p.m. 217 Viking Lander 2 April 7 > 4-4-98 09:16/1:16 a.m. 218 Mars Pathfinder April 7 > 4-5-98 08:33/12:33 a.m. 220 Cydonia April 6 (mid-a.m.) > > It should be on the inet early morning Monday. > > Terry That should have read "early Monday". PS You might also want to catch a "special" video on UPN Monday evening. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 14:22:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06545; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:10:41 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:10:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> From: "Mike Carrell" To: Subject: Re: RIFEX report! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:06:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"6ks6y3.0.5c1.Op09r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17300 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, I have Word 7 and WinZip. The unzipped file is not read by Word 7. Can you point me to a reference that gives an overview of the various analysis techniques used by Miley, their capabilities and pitfalls? I will be at ICCF-7 Mike Carrell From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 14:32:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05014; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:27:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:27:16 -0800 Message-ID: <003101bd5e87$35ed1e10$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: Download problem of RIFEX report! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:32:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"V7k511.0.4E1.3319r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17301 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell I Word 7 will not read office 97 documents. I converted a copy of the Rifex report into RIFEX.rtf You will not have a problem opening it with any MSWord or other processing program (including MAC's). To download it, go to: ftp://champion.goodnet.com Hope this helps. I will have the RIFEX.pdf in a couple of days. Joe Champion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 15:11:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00406; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:06:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:06:44 -0800 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980402230645.0067daa8 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:06:45 -0500 To: vortex-L eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: RIFEX report! Resent-Message-ID: <"ee8PH3.0.96.2e19r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17302 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That is a beautiful 33-page report, Scott. With Netscape, NetZIP, Word 97 and an HP Deskjet 600 printer the report came through letter perfect, diagram perfect, table perfect, and figure perfect. Only the pagination did not print (small detail!). Marvels of Internet communication! Now to eagerly read and study the report. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 15:24:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03330; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:20:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:20:22 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste css.mot.com Message-Id: <35241CDB.534B62A2 css.mot.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:18:51 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: GIT Inertial Drive References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F088E xch-cpc-02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"90A4j2.0.wp.qq19r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17303 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scudder, Henry J wrote: > UNFAIR! what is a GIT inertial device? -- John E. Steck Prototype Tool Engineering Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 16:19:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16018; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:15:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:15:57 -0800 Message-ID: <35242901.1B1F keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 18:10:41 -0600 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M4XIi3.0.1w3.we29r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17304 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill! I think it would have been TOTALLY HILARIOUS, no doubt spawning ALL KINDS OF CONSPIRACY STORIES, both via InterNet and in the printed media....who knows, this might get you on national news...... You shoulda done it....hey, I thought we were going to do something like that....I plumb forgot....it would have been great if INE, You, Tesla, Borderlands, TT.Brown, Infinite Energy, Nexus, KeelyNet and a few others all JOINTLY CONSPIRED to post something like that saying we had all been shut down on some bogus secrecy order and your cookies have now identified you as a co-conspirator.... Well, maybe drop the cookies part as some would never come back......or worse, just pull up, quit their jobs and disappear... But the page thing would have been hilarious...hind sight....god, this would have been a classic...maybe next year.... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 16:33:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21981; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:28:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:28:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The End In-Reply-To: <3523FD33.332DFE71 pathcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Zf0Jt.0.JN5.-q29r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17306 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Priede wrote: > William Beaty wrote: > > The liquid bismuth nonlinear homopolar quadrature wave acoustic device > > I've been working on in secret for years is finally putting out 137watts > > of excess energy per hour. The financial sources I've been dealing with > > insist that I discontinue vortex-L and freenrg-L, and pull SCIENCE > > HOBBYIST off the web to maintain a low profile. > :) Funny! As I was reading this I didn't realize it was April 1st... I apologize to those who read this on 4/2 and had less reason to be suspicious. I wish I had done as John Schnurer pointed out: encode a message in the first letters of the purported "device". With family and internet addiction and all, I think the halls of science are safe from Bill Beaty coming up with any earthshaking inventions. Unless I discover them while staring into the weeds next to the sidewalk (or car hoods, or something.) The Bismuth "device" came out of my fingers as I typed. But now that I think about it, metals are dense plasma. If a metal contains two 90deg sound waves in quadrature phase relationship, its atoms describe tiny circles during each cycle of sound. If the sound is high frequency and intense, what nonlinear plasma effects would arise in the "rotating" metal? Deadly beams of torsion radiation? Overunity "Keely Explosions?" If a field from a permanent magnet is also applied, we whould form an AC homopolar generator and find immense AC currents inside the metal with interesting geometrical and phase relationships with the sound vibrations. Like Tesla's Earthquake machine, but it tweaks the spacetime instead of the bedrock. Liquid metal cannot support transverse acoustic waves like solid metal can, so effects might be different for a liquid metal (besides invoking mercury-based UFO engines, and Graneau's Amperian metal-pumping forces.) Use bismuth for the Art-Bell-ness, also a low melting temperature I think, also poorly-understood diamagnetism, possibly electrogravity. Mix it all together for maximum silliness. And yet... If you build one, be sure to avoid thinking negative thoughts during its operation. Otherwise it might open a "montauk" portal mouth which will suck up all your expensive lab equipment and drop it into the Philadelphia naval yard in 1945. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 16:35:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04479; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:27:00 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:27:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F088F xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: RIFEX report! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:24:27 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"lkQBQ2.0.n51.7p29r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17305 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike I used pkunzip under DOS to expand the .zip file. It then became a .doc file and worked fine under Word 97. Hank > ---------- > From: Mike Carrell[SMTP:mikec snip.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 1998 3:06 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: RIFEX report! > > Scott, I have Word 7 and WinZip. The unzipped file is not read by Word > 7. > > > Can you point me to a reference that gives an overview of the various > analysis techniques used by Miley, their capabilities and pitfalls? > I will be at ICCF-7 > > Mike Carrell > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 16:47:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08239; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:42:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:42:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000601bd5e99$cc6ee9b0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: RIFEX report! Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:45:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"kmfMW.0.e02.K139r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17307 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I zipped up the RIFEX.rtf and it can be found at: ftp://champion.goodnet.com 462kb file titled: RIFEX_rtf.zip Joe Champion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 20:11:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12008; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:06:18 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:06:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980402220235.008e56a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 22:02:35 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: msg from Jed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QKemu2.0.Vx2.p069r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17308 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed is having probs with posting to Vortex so I am forwarding this on his behalf: T: Vortex Sub: Test message . . . RIFEX report! Testing 1, 2, 3 . . . I have been unable to get through to Vortex lately. I thank Bill Beaty for forwarding my Takahashi Correction. It is a shame he plans to close Vortex and disappear down the rabbit hole with the other inventors, but that is how the o-u energy game is played. It is like "sardines;" reverse hide-and-go-seek. The person who is "it" hides in a closet. The other players split up, find him (or better her, when played in high school), and squeeze into the closet. When all players but one disappears from view the game is over and the remaining person is "it." This is a lot of fun. With o-u, the most popular hiding place is the grave, to which Meyer recently repaired. Scott Little says his report is "now up on our web page (in the Experiments, Reports Section) , as a PKzipped Word 97 .doc file." Ahem . . . I plan to download a free utility from Corel to convert Word97 files into WordPerfect format, but I have not got around to it and I can't remember the web page address. In the meanwhile, Scott, could you possibly convert the file to RTF format and e-mail it to me, or post it again? RTF is a good lingua franca. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 20:15:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12045; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:06:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:06:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980402220338.008f0d20 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 22:03:38 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: more from Jed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wYxPN2.0.5y2.x069r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17309 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Another forwarded msg: T: Vortex Sub: Prometheus game Bill Beaty posted this masterful summary of the inventor's dilemma. The problems he described are not unique to 'free energy.' Innovations in many other fields cannot be patented or effectively protected, for many reasons: the technology may change too quickly, the innovation may not be significant enough to merit a patent, the inventor may not have the money, or patents may not be allowed, as with computer software. A few software patents have been granted, but in general the older legal precedents barring them are still in force. Microsoft and others rely on the frail protection of copyrights instead. This has not prevented Bill Gates from becoming the richest man on earth. Mainly, software developers rely on their own skill and their ability to keep running. Successful developers stay ahead of the competition and make skilled use of their customer base. Nothing is more valuable to a business than satisfied customers. Actually I do not know any software developers who favor software patents. I do not think they would bother applying for them. Beaty's suggestion, that the inventor sell demo kits, is right on the mark. This is what I have been advocating for years. I have been working vigorously behind the scenes to make it happen. I may yet succeed. The Cincinnati Group are the only ones who have offered kits at a reasonable cost. Unfortunately, their device does not produce energy. It reportedly remediates radioactivity. This is an important process, but it is not easy to test. We do not want people fooling around with thorium in their basements. I'd like to pick a few nits in Bill's review of the Wright brother's work. What broke the barriers? Breaking of secrecy, for one. The Wrights published their early glider designs in a flying-machine inventor's magazine. The publication in the French magazine was not detailed. More information was available in Wilbur's 1901 address to the Western Society of Engineers, published in their proceedings. The 1906 patent was the best source of information. It should be noted that the Wrights had no trouble getting a patent, unlike today's free energy inventors. We should not exaggerate the strength of the opposition they faced. Like the CF scientists, they were widely ridiculed, but they were also allowed into the mainstream of science & engineering, just as McKubre and Fleischmann have published in major journals. The Western Society of Engineers was a prestigious organization, and Wilbur made a good impression on them. He was recommended by Octave Chanute, one of the top engineers and entrepreneurs of that era. In late 1906 the Charles Flint Company sent an agent to make a deal with the Wrights, to represent them. This was one of the most successful turn-of-the-century venture capital investment companies. Flint helped start IBM and other prominent companies. He sold U.S. manufactured machine guns, warships and major armaments worldwide. At first, Flint & Co. made the same mistakes the Wrights had made, keeping the airplane confidential. Even after Flint and the French investors realized that demonstrations were necessary, it took them a year to draw Wilbur and Orville out of their shells. Bill says that after 1908: They became famous beyond their wildest dreams, but financially they only did well, and did not attain fabulous riches. They soon earned more than a million dollars, which is worth $10 or $20 million adjusted for inflation, depending on the commodity. They did not try very hard to attain fabulous wealth, and the steps they took were inept. Wilbur worked himself to an early death in 1912 defending patents, but I get a sense he was fighting for the principle more than the money, because he passed up many easy opportunities. Orville took little interest in business after his brother died. He soon sold off his shares and spent the rest of his life happily tinkering. After they became famous the Wrights passed up many opportunities to cash in. They became friends with rich and influential people, especially Lord Northcliff, publisher of the London Daily Mail. After WWI he wrote, "I never knew a more simple, unaffected trio than Wilbur, Orville, and Katherine . . . Their heads were not in the least turned by the various attentions bestowed on them, nor by the many great financial offers given them to make demonstrations." He said they could have been far wealthier if they had wanted to. I get the same impression reading the Wright's letters. They did not care much about money once they made a decent pile of it. I'm fairly convinced that, had the Wrights stayed secretive, pursued riches, and never published, they probably would have taken their secrets to the grave. The barriers against new discoveries are that strong. I think the airplane would have been invented within 20 years. This is the consensus of opinion in serious books about early aviation. This invention was too obvious to be missed. Anyone could see that birds fly. Sooner or later, competent engineers would have tackled the problem. Indeed, after 1908 many scientists and historians of science wondered what took so long, and why so many capable people ignored the potential of aviation. I do not think that other could have solved the problem as quickly, as elegantly or in as much detail as the Wrights did. More lives would have been lost, and a great deal more money would have been wasted, but the breakthroughs would have come eventually. They would not have come in time for the First World War. Allied air superiority was crucial; Germany probably would have won. In a sense, the Wright brothers saved civilization. (After 1908 the Wrights invented the wing flap "spoilers" that made dive bombing possible, so indirectly they saved thousands of American lives at the Battle of Midway and beyond. The U.S. depended on dive bombers. The Japanese had decent torpedoes, whereas U.S. torpedoes in 1942 were so unreliable that when one went off "it was an event to write home about.") Once it became generally known that flight was possible using a propellor and fixed wings, other people did manage to re-invent the airplane more-or-less independently, a few of them without the benefit of the patent or detailed descriptions. Most of these people killed themselves naturally, but a few isolated geniuses like Sikorsky succeeded. By 1914 Sikorsky was building incredibly advanced machines, capable of flying hundreds of miles with a dozen passengers. This is the worst nightmare of the Free Energy inventor: that he will reveal the secret and within months someone like Sikorsky will take it and run, and make gigantic improvements. I think this will happen. It cannot be avoided. One type of person is good at inventing. Another type is good at improving, making things practical, and commercializing. William Shockly never became a titan of semiconductors. The Wright designs were obsolete by 1909. They paid little attention to other people's innovations after 1908, they never tried to catch up. Their intellectual independence was a strength in the early days, but after the field took off it became a weakness. I think a Free Energy inventor could make billions of dollars by getting a patent after the fact. I advise inventors to apply for a patent even though it will be automatically rejected. (The rules bar perceptual motion machine patent applications, and cold fusion patents are summarily rejected by custom.) It is useless to fight the government or to spend money in the patent application process. You must make the application and let it lapse. You go on record as the inventor. Later, when you become world famous, you will be invited to address a Joint Session of Congress. You say: "thank you for the gold medal and the applause. I would like to ask for a favor. Not money; no special rights. I want a patent, the same that would be granted to any other inventor, for any other invention. The Patent Office thought this machine is impossible, so they set a rule and they summarily rejected my application. This was a reasonable rule based on the knowledge then available, but the knowledge was flawed. I ask that this rule be abolished retroactively." I think Congress would pass a law by acclamation within a week. The President would invite you to the White House, sign the bill, and hand you your patent. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 20:19:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00511; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:16:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:16:14 -0800 Message-ID: <000d01bd5eb7$ef395520$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: RIFEX formats -- Word Perfect and Word for MAC Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:21:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"g94I02.0.Z7.5A69r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17310 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have included conversion of the RIFEX report to Word for MAC and Word Perfect for DOS. They can be downnloaded at: ftp://champion.goodnet.com Joe Champion Only one to go! Yelp... that damn .pdf file From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 2 20:22:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15117; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980402221732.00930460 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 22:17:32 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX report! In-Reply-To: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"utZCB3.0.1i3.UC69r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17311 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:06 PM 4/2/98 -0500, Mike Carrell wrote: >Scott, I have Word 7 and WinZip. The unzipped file is not read by Word 7. Right, you need Word 97. Joe C has posted a zipped .rtf file...try that. >Can you point me to a reference that gives an overview of the various >analysis techniques used by Miley, their capabilities and pitfalls? The only one I can help you with right now is the SIMS. Charles Evans Associates has a good web site: http://www.cea.com/tutorial.htm >I will be at ICCF-7 Good....look forward to meeting you there. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 01:19:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11398; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:15:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 01:15:37 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980402221732.00930460 mail.eden.com> References: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:13:06 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! Resent-Message-ID: <"9o0lG.0.yn2.sYA9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17312 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: RE: > Word 7 and WinZip. ... > The unzipped file is not read by Word 7. ... > Joe C has posted a zipped .rtf file...try that. ... ... etc. etc. & mounds of similar computer geek dementia about file types and formatting, and then finally: > That is a beautiful 33-page report, Scott. With > Netscape, NetZIP, Word 97 and an HP Deskjet 600 > printer the report came through letter perfect, > diagram perfect, table perfect, and figure perfect. Am I all alone out here in wondering about the CONTENT of the report?! Would it be too much to ask for someone to post to Vortex a very brief *plain text* summary including an answer to the following: Did it work or not??? . . . Ahem - sorry if I've offended anyone, could be a little solder vapor still clinging to my nerve endings. :) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 02:06:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17229; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:04:01 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:04:01 -0800 (PST) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <004501bd5ee7$356f8800$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: John Deere 9000 Series Tractors (http://www.deere.com/ag/tractors/9000/9knew.ht Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:59:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD5EAC.7B2EEA60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"XG-Ls.0.7D4.FGB9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17313 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD5EAC.7B2EEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The ULTIMATE RV for vortex-L members! Also used for lawn&garden and pulling children around in their Radio-Flyer wagons. http://www.deere.com/ag/tractors/9000/9knew.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD5EAC.7B2EEA60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="John Deere 9000 Series Tractors.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="John Deere 9000 Series Tractors.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.deere.com/ag/tractors/9000/9knew.htm Modified=80608978E65EBD01E3 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD5EAC.7B2EEA60-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 02:24:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19419; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:22:44 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:22:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 02:21:01 -0800 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804031021.CAA09498 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: The End Resent-Message-ID: <"ndWNY1.0.Fl4.nXB9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17314 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A billb wrote: >Seems that our international subscribers missed the reference to Pacific >Standard Time. There were still hours and hours of "fool" left here in >Seattle. Hi Bill, Fear not! As long as I am in Seattle, there will be no shortage of "fool". In fact, I'm thinking of making the Huffman Technology motto: Where Everyday is April Fools Day. I read Jerry Decker's post about putting an egg upsidedown in a stream of water, and I was thinking about ways of raising capital at the same time. I was thinking of doing like Frank Z., and try selling a book on a disk, when the idea hit me. A Book on an Egg. Not about an egg, but actually writing a book on an egg. If I started at the top of the fat part of the egg, and I wrote real small and in a spiral fashion, you could just turn the egg round and round as you read it. When you were done, you will have focused your conscious energy in a spiral, egg-shaped geometry, which in turn, should cause the formation a kind of "consciousness cavity" in the center of egg. Maybe even a "consciousness vortex street" underneath the egg. It might even levitate, but of course, if it didn't, then the yoke would be on you! Ha! Ha! -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 05:08:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11860; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:04:13 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:04:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980403070302.0092a100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:03:02 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980402221732.00930460 mail.eden.com> <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zzUc82.0.Dv2.9vD9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17315 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:13 PM 4/2/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Would it be too much to ask for someone to post to Vortex a very brief >*plain text* summary including an answer to the following: Did it work or >not??? I wish it were that simple, Rick. Here's the abstract: >A series of experiments has been performed with the CETI RIFEX kit. In >each experiment an electrolytic cell with a cathode composed of >metal-coated plastic beads was operated for two weeks. The cathode >beads were then analyzed by x-ray fluorescence for evidence of nuclear >transmutations. Several elements were observed to appear in the reacted >beads. Analyses of the electrolyte and other components of the system >in contact with the electrolyte are not conclusive but suggest to us >that these elements were present in the system initially. The RIFEX experiment produces a complex set of results which would require a Herculean analytical investigation to resolve completely. We mounted a serious effort to track a few selected elements that appeared in relatively large quantities in the reacted beads...and we came pretty close to identifying matching quantities of those elements that were present within the RIFEX electrolyte circuit at the start of the runs. However, things didn't match exactly. Does this mean that nuclear reactions supplied the additional element...or that analytical errors are responsible for the mismatch? At present there is no hard answer to this question. You can only study what we have done, what Miley has done, and form your own opinion...and wait for additional research to be done. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 05:09:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12488; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:07:47 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 05:07:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:59:50 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"DZke53.0.033.XyD9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17316 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks Rick... for you sanity in the matter. A simple overview would help a lot. On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > RE: > > > Word 7 and WinZip. > ... > > The unzipped file is not read by Word 7. > ... > > Joe C has posted a zipped .rtf file...try that. > ... > > ... etc. etc. & mounds of similar computer geek dementia about file types > and formatting, and then finally: > > > That is a beautiful 33-page report, Scott. With > > Netscape, NetZIP, Word 97 and an HP Deskjet 600 > > printer the report came through letter perfect, > > diagram perfect, table perfect, and figure perfect. > > > > Am I all alone out here in wondering about the CONTENT of the report?! > Would it be too much to ask for someone to post to Vortex a very brief > *plain text* summary including an answer to the following: Did it work or > not??? > > . . . > > > Ahem - sorry if I've offended anyone, could be a little solder vapor still > clinging to my nerve endings. :) > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 06:53:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09614; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:49:50 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 06:49:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980403084940.00b73fd4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:49:40 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: RIFEX - geek report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2T30N.0.3M2.3SF9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17317 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to Kirk Shannahan we now have a .pdf format file on our web site. Some of the formatting was distorted in the conversion but the report is generally readable in the .pdf form. Also, thanks to a tip from Joe Champion, there is a PKzipped Rich Text Format version. When I saved the rifex.doc file in Rich Text format, it swelled to 3.5 megs in size...but PKzip whittled it back down to ~500 kbytes. When Word 97 opens the .rtf file it looks perfect...but then Word 97 made the .rtf file...others may not be so lucky. Later today, I'll post the report on our calorimetric study, which is referenced in the main report. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 09:25:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05592; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:21:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:21:02 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980403091249.00b75af8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:12:49 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: RIFEX - real info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tAocQ.0.KM1.pfH9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17321 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed writes: >I have still not had a chance to download the report, and I still cannot >communicate with Vortex. I have seen the Abstract. Anyway, Scott, I have two >quick questions: > >1. What about isotope shifts? Did you see any? If not, I suppose the elements >on the bead surface were probably contamination. Unfortunately, we did not perform any isotopic measurements because we don't have ready access to mass spectrometry. In the report we rationalize this deficiency as follows: >>>> XRF [the analytical method we used] does not distinguish between the different isotopes of an element. It is sensitive only to total elemental concentrations. In some respects this can be considered beneficial for an initial investigation because it eliminates a complex set of variables from the analytical puzzle. If we can first confirm that new elements are indeed being created then additional studies to investigate isotopic distributions are certainly warranted. <<<<<<<< >2. Perhaps I misunderstood, but sources tell me that you may have opened the >cell and tested it in another calorimeter before running the RIFEX test. The RIFEX kit was supplied with the beads in small vials stored under a NH4OH soln and the cell fully disassembled. The first steps of the RIFEX protocol were to assemble the cell and load the beads into it. >This would allow in significant contamination. Only if you allowed significant quantities of foreign material to enter the cell during assembly. We were EXTREMELY careful and the procedure went very well. >Did you follow the instructions exactly? Yes. >Did you do anything with the cell before or after running the RIFEX >procedures? We assembled the cell before the run. We disassembled the cell after the run to collect the beads for analysis. Our calorimetric study was performed on fresh beads in a cell of our own design, which is remarkably similar to the RIFEX cell. We did not attempt to reuse those beads for the transmutation study. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 09:25:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05110; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:20:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:20:11 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980403103145.00b4a0a4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:31:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: RIFEX - Calorimetric Study Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-3PzA.0.VE1.ueH9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17320 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I have just posted the 2nd paper, "Calorimetric Study of Pd/Ni Beads From the CETI RIFEX Kit" on our web site. It's available in .doc and .rtf form, both PKzipped. HTML enthusiasts: I have tried the Save As HTML option and numerous graphics are mysteriously missing from the result. Try to use the downloadable files for now. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 09:26:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04379; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:18:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:18:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:48:48 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Egg In-Reply-To: <199804031021.CAA09498 slave3.aa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"_iVq31.0.341.rdH9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17319 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Michael T Huffman wrote: > Where Everyday is April Fools Day. > > I read Jerry Decker's post about putting an egg upsidedown in a > stream of water, and I was thinking about ways of raising capital at the > same time. I was thinking of doing like Frank Z., and try selling a book on > a disk, when the idea hit me. A Book on an Egg. Not about an egg, but > actually writing a book on an egg. If I started at the top of the fat part > of the egg, and I wrote real small and in a spiral fashion, you could just > turn the egg round and round as you read it. When you were done, you will > have focused your conscious energy in a spiral, egg-shaped geometry, which > in turn, should cause the formation a kind of "consciousness cavity" in the > center of egg. Maybe even a "consciousness vortex street" underneath the > egg. It might even levitate, but of course, if it didn't, then the yoke > would be on you! Ha! Ha! -Knuke Or write it on a fully-inflated egg-shaped water balloon. Write really tiny, so you can cram the entire book onto it, and then when you let the water out, not only will you have an excellent elixir for treating houseplants, but your consciousness will also contract to the pointlike object so much pursued by certain Eastern philosophies. More fun than a barrel of prayer-wheels. :) ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 09:28:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03404; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:17:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:17:00 -0800 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:15:24 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: good by Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"q5d_b1.0.wq.9cH9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17318 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I have just read that Bill Beaty is pulling the plug. I would like to say good by to all. Perhaps this is not so bad. The postings on Vortex have gone up to an out of sight level. I just delete most of it anyway. I'm looking for a news group with less traffic, more experiments, and off topic discussions feed off into privite discussion rooms. I hope Gene Mallove can make something like this happen. Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 10:02:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01138; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:53:37 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:53:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:01:12 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: No mickey take intended Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"nciTI1.0.fH.T8I9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17322 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortex, I try to get people interested in new technology, CF, etc. They keep coming back with the, 'if it works, why isn't on the national grid?' Well what of it? Is this glib, does this piss you off? Just what do you guys have that works consistently? As for me, my desalination device won't really be a large energy producer because the energy density is low, so lots of real estate needed. I still think I should model just how much water there will be before doing experiments. If too little I'll have trouble making it flow and the device will need a substantial head on it (supplied by the potential energy of the condensing vapour of course :) Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 10:02:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02032; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:57:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:57:16 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste css.mot.com Message-Id: <352504A4.C6F6044 css.mot.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:47:48 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! References: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bvfDR1.0.aV.gBI9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17323 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Would it be too much to ask for someone to post to Vortex a very brief > *plain text* summary including an answer to the following: Did it work or > not??? How about a quick and dirty conversion to HTML? Figure 1 (the cell cross section) would not convert to GIF and some of the resolution dropped out on the SIMS graph, but for the sake of discussion here, not bad for just hitting the "save as HTML" button and doing nothing else. Takes up less space too. 8^) Unless Scott objects, it will be posted through the weekend at: Monday it's off my site so get it while you can. Later. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tool Engineering Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 10:24:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07476; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:20:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:20:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:32:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199804031532.JAA01823 dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"l_qmq2.0.gq1.dXI9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17325 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Apri l3, 1998 Roick, you wrote: >Would it be too much to ask for someone to post to Vortex a very brief >*plain text* summary including an answer to the following: Did it work >or not??? Yes, it did work but not (it seems). Ah that smell of rosin stirs --- -ak- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 10:29:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07375; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:19:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:19:55 -0800 (PST) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:17:31 EST To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: published again Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"dK1Zs3.0.4p1.7XI9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17324 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Letter From Frank Znidarsic: Znidarsic Tells... Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 10:32:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30148; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:25:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:25:25 -0800 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste css.mot.com Message-Id: <3525292C.29DDBC86 css.mot.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 12:23:40 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX - Calorimetric Study References: <3.0.1.32.19980403103145.00b4a0a4 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hclqK3.0.zM7.KcI9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17326 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > HTML enthusiasts: I have tried the Save As HTML option and numerous > graphics are mysteriously missing from the result. Try to use the > downloadable files for now. FYI, when I converted your first report I noticed Word97 saved the resulting graphic names in lowercase but referenced them in the HTML with a leading capital. If you are getting no graphics at all, this might be the cause. Try changing the first letter of the GIF file names to a capital. If you are only getting one or two dropping out, Word97 is running in conversion problems. If you are able to convert your images to GIF or JPG prior to dropping them into your document you shouldn't lose anything. 8^) Either way, thanks for posting the info. -- John E. Steck Prototype Tool Engineering Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 11:01:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13942; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:51:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:51:24 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:41:35 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: good by Resent-Message-ID: <"GNYRg2.0.eP3.a-I9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17327 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank - > I have just read that Bill Beaty is pulling the plug. I > would like to say good by to all. Frank, Noooo.... It was just a joke. The list stays up, and I promise not to post too much unless I'm doing some actual experiments behind the issues. Please stay. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 11:01:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05212; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:54:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:54:45 -0800 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980403070302.0092a100 mail.eden.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980402221732.00930460 mail.eden.com> <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:54:15 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! Resent-Message-ID: <"mSpXa3.0.6H1.o1J9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17328 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott - Hope you could easily see through my 'slightly' abrasive humor to the fact that I really respect and appreciate the work you are doing on things like the RIFEX kit, and that you take the time to post completely detailed reports on them, in whatever file format. . I just found it pretty amusing that I could go through the entire "RIFEX" thread in anticipation of the importance of the results, and find nothing but format discussions. Thanks for the brief recap (I'll get those .pdf files), and sorry too that you didn't come up with anything definitive. I know you have been trying for some time to get some solid experimental data from CF and derivatives, and it must be frustrating. Please keep up your good work. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 11:01:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05883; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:55:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:55:49 -0800 Message-ID: <35250487.2F2D earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:47:19 -0600 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Murray: Carrell: SIMS sites 04/03/98 References: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9YDDL3.0.XR1.o2J9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17329 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 3, 1998 http://www.asu.edu/clas/csss/SIMS/ http://www-sims.nist.gov/ http://www.cea.com/ http://www.cea.com/resource.htm http://www.cea.com/table.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 11:04:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07017; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:59:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:59:44 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980403130126.00b6b264 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 13:01:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! In-Reply-To: <352504A4.C6F6044 css.mot.com> References: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"tdNqv.0.Pj1.U6J9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17330 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:47 4/3/98 -0600, John Steck wrote: >Unless Scott objects, it will be posted through the weekend at: > No objection, John. I see that you also lost Figs 3,4,5 & 6, which is what happened to me, too!....but I didn't lose Fig 1. Go figure (so to speak)! Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 11:10:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10676; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:07:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:07:29 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980403191105.0095deac mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 11:11:05 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Gary Hawkins Subject: elements 97 and 115, etc Resent-Message-ID: <"4hxSG1.0.kc2.lDJ9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17331 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Someone in the Seattle area would like to locate a chemist who would have some idea on how to predict some of the qualities of elements that are not previously quantified officially. In other words, if he can make an element through transmutation, how will he know when he has made it? If you know how to ball-park estimate some of the qualities of the elements based on their location in the periodic table, please email me privately and I can put you in contact with this person. Thanks, Gary Hawkins -------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/ Seattle, WA -------------------------------------------------------------- >Gary >What I am after is any therorathcal data and or real data on elements Uup 115 and >Bk 97... info like : boiling point, melting pt, density, atomic weight, oxidation >states, acid-base properties, electronegativity, heat of fusion and vaporization, >electrical and thermal conductivity, specific heat, 1st 2nd--- ionization potentials, >atomic volume and radius, covalent radius, crystal structure, isotopes of, also >stablablity, effect of air, water, acids, bases, what’s it does at S.T.P.,, and maybe >some ideas on refining the stuff.... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 13:13:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08805; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:08:12 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:08:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:04:43 -0500 From: Soo Subject: Re: The Egg Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804031604_MC2-38EC-A3AE compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA08755 Resent-Message-ID: <"XYzjp2.0.Q92.v-K9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17334 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Bill Possibly. I'm doing a low-level experiment (the only kind I'm really capable of) based on Schauberger's theories of "energisation" of water. I've planted four sets of seedlings. One lot get tap water, the second get "energised" water a la Schauberger, the third lot (following a recommendation from Jim Day) get carbonated spring water in an attempt to disprove that aeration alone makes a difference and the last lot are on D2O. Just thought I'd share that with you guys. I'll let you know what happens...............whether you want to know or not -Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 13:14:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08619; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:07:16 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:07:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:04:43 -0500 From: Soo Subject: good by Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804031604_MC2-38EC-A3AF compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA08577 Resent-Message-ID: <"xLVE12.0.X62.0-K9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17332 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frank < The postings on Vortex have gone up to an out of sight level.> What do you mean? Have they gone all "traditionalist" and inhibited on us?? Well, there ain't much Gene Mallove can't do, but I'd stick with the Old Bill for now eh? He was teasing, Frank. Why look elsewhere.....complain to the old beggar......he's clearly very creative and adaptable, or there'd be no Vortex list, right? Regards Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 13:15:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08653; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:07:24 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:07:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:04:45 -0500 From: Soo Subject: Re: good by Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804031604_MC2-38EC-A3B1 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id NAA08615 Resent-Message-ID: <"QqYD1.0.472.9-K9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17333 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And there was little me thinking I'd already trashed the joint just by joining. -Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 13:31:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12079; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:25:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:25:23 -0800 (PST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste css.mot.com Message-Id: <35255301.DBAF8384 css.mot.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:22:09 -0600 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! References: <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> <3.0.1.32.19980403130126.00b6b264@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------17E9F64B2F15A3A0B9F102CB" Resent-Message-ID: <"w-n0B2.0.fy2.1FL9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17335 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------17E9F64B2F15A3A0B9F102CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott Little wrote: > No objection, John. I see that you also lost Figs 3,4,5 & 6, which is what > happened to me, too!....but I didn't lose Fig 1. Go figure (so to speak)! You would know at first glance better than I. I got 8 GIFs numbered 2-9 in the conversion. I only got an error on the first figure so I ASSumed I had everything. I guess that's my lesson for the day on why is good not to shoot your mouth off before running some tests first. Doh! Oh well. Apologies up and down the line........ 8^) -- John E. 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X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Remi, Could you email me directly please? I can't make head or tail of the net garbage which precedes vortex messages. -Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 14:06:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15418; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:48:39 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:48:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980403154845.00b76c00 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:48:45 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Vortex-L From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX: stop it, you geeks! In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980403070302.0092a100 mail.eden.com> <3.0.5.32.19980402221732.00930460 mail.eden.com> <003b01bd5e8c$2e908ee0$d741d3d0 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"3Xr4k1.0.om3.paL9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17337 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:54 4/3/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Hope you could easily see through my 'slightly' abrasive humor.... I've been laughing at "Stop it, you geeks!" all day! Thanks for the humor and the kudos. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 16:02:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16755; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:58:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:58:57 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <352577B8.C3B math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:58:48 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: good by References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5ZX0W2.0.e54.0VN9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17338 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > > Frank - > > > I have just read that Bill Beaty is pulling the plug. I > > would like to say good by to all. > > Frank, Noooo.... > > It was just a joke. The gullibility of some folks never ceases to amaze me. It would be hard to ever give much credence to their beliefs.... -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 16:13:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19840; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:10:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:10:54 -0800 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:11:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: D2O sonoluminescence question Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <2A4F210F5B hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"d6Zzk3.0.sr4.CgN9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17340 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts everyone, I was talking to a prof. in our physics department who is planning to set up a sonoluminescence experiment and we were discussing all the variables that must be right in order for the experiment to work (too little or too much gas in the water, etc.). One question that was brought up was the effect of using heavy water instead of the usual purified and degassed tap water. Does anyone know off hand if this experiment has been done, and if so, what were the results? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 16:13:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19703; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:09:50 -0800 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <35257A3D.2D39 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:09:33 -0800 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: good by References: <352577B8.C3B@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bvJYf2.0.lp4.CfN9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17339 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Barry Merriman wrote: > > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > > Frank - > > > > > I have just read that Bill Beaty is pulling the plug. I > > > would like to say good by to all. > > > > Frank, Noooo.... > > > > It was just a joke. > > The gullibility of some folks never ceases to amaze me. It > would be hard to ever give much credence to their beliefs.... > (Of course, perhaps Frank was the one making the joke :-) -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 21:24:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12149; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:23:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:23:01 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980403232226.0091e620 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:22:26 -0600 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: D2O sonoluminescence question In-Reply-To: <2A4F210F5B hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"bBZXQ3.0.fz2.oES9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17342 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:11 PM 4/3/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: >planning to set up a sonoluminescence experiment >the effect of using heavy water instead of the usual purified and degassed tap >water? I haven't observed sonoluminesce in D2O, only in H2O, and then only barely. But I have operated an ultrasonic xducer immersed in D2O making intense cavitation for extended periods of time. Nothing unusual (i.e. different from H2O) happened. Have you asked Seth Putterman, leading sonoluminescence researcher? Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 21:27:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27088; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:24:32 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:24:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:16:43 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: good by In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"t-1eo3.0.9d6.EGS9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17341 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear vo.,... and Frank, I have been on the net since kermit-vaxx .... and have looked at discussion groups, news groups and the emerging www.... BAR NONE Vo has the lowest GQ, or goofy quotient... Maybe one of you watchers will give us an experiment VS non experiment ratio .... as far as I know it is FAR higher than any other avenue I have ever seen. Big fun too! There are folks on vo who talk it... but don't walk it... BUT ... there are a bunch who will walk ANYTHING ... provided they have the resources and if they don't they will find them. I have done this for years, some of the gravity experiment techniques did not exist before I started. They do now! J On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, FZNIDARSIC wrote: > I have just read that Bill Beaty is pulling the plug. I would like to say > good by to all. > > Perhaps this is not so bad. The postings on Vortex have gone up to an out of > sight level. > I just delete most of it anyway. I'm looking for a news group with less > traffic, more experiments, and off topic discussions feed off into privite > discussion rooms. > > I hope Gene Mallove can make something like this happen. > > Frank Znidarsic > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 21:48:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29636; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:41:11 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:41:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980404053959.008df364 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:39:59 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: "The Saint" on HBO Resent-Message-ID: <"na-6F1.0.vE7.mVS9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17343 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "The Saint" is playing on HBO-E (G5-15) on Saturday, April 4 at 8 P.M. EST. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 3 23:33:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11598; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:31:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:31:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:36:01 -0900 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: D2O sonoluminescence question Resent-Message-ID: <"GNeop3.0.4r2.t6U9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17344 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:11 PM 4/3/98, Jay Olson wrote: >Gnorts everyone, > >I was talking to a prof. in our physics department who is planning >to set up a sonoluminescence experiment and we were discussing all >the variables that must be right in order for the experiment to work >(too little or too much gas in the water, etc.). One question that >was brought up was the effect of using heavy water instead of the >usual purified and degassed tap water. Does anyone know off hand if >this experiment has been done, and if so, what were the results? > >JAY OLSON Here is some info posted by Peter Gluck (see ref. to D2O at bottom): At 5:21 PM 10/26/95, Peter Gluck wrote: >Re: Sonoluminescence. > >In my opinion excess heat effects can be triggered both by >catalysis and cavitation; the catalytic centres and the cavitation >bubbles are the loci where some special phenomena take place >due to a common quantum-size effect. >For both catalysis and cavitation, these effects are supported by >related effects, also bound to quantum size: >For catalysis- the Reifenschweiler effect- decreased radioactivity >of tritium absorbed in nanometric Ti particles; >For cavitation-sonoluminescence.. >I have got today interesting news re. sonoluminescence and I am >using this opportunity to continue my bibliography on this subject. >Some of the papers could be useful for us. > >1. T. J. Matula, R. A. Roy, P. D Mourad (U. of Washington) >Comparison of multibubble and single-bubble Sonoluminescence. >Physical Review Letters,75:13 (SEP 28, 1995) p 2602-2605 > >2. M. M. Chivate, A. B. Pandit (U. of Bombay) >Quantification of cavitation intensity in fluid bulk. >Ultrasonics, Sonochemistry 2 : 1 (May 1995) S19-S25 > >3. R. A. Roy : Physical aspects of sonoluminescence from >acoustic cavitation. >Ultrasonics, Sonochemistry 1 :2 Sep 1994 87-90 > >4. H. Johari : Chemically reactive vortex rings. >Physics of Fluids 7, 10, OCT 1995 2420-7 > > This info has arrived this morning. > >PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE >The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Physics News >Number 246 October 25, 1995 by Phillip F. Schewe and Ben Stein > >ISOTOPE EFFECTS IN SONOLUMINESCENCE have been >observed by Seth Putterman and Robert Hiller at UCLA. >Sonoluminescence (SL) is a mysterious phenomenon in which acoustic >energy is transduced into light energy; high frequency sound waves >are absorbed by tiny bubbles in water. The bubbles, oscillating >wildly, re-emit the energy in the form of tiny, focused light bursts. >Many things about SL are still unknown, such as the nature of the >light-emitting process or why the light pulses are so short. The >UCLA work has established one new fact: substituting heavy water >(D2O) for ordinary water (H2O) as the liquid medium causes the SL >spectrum to dramatically shift from ultraviolet toward red >wavelengths. This result seems to represent yet a new mystery. >According to the researchers, "The shift is remarkably large, >especially in view of the small difference in chemical and elastic >properties between light and heavy water." (Robert A. Hiller and >Seth Putterman, upcoming article in Physical Review Letters; >journalists can obtain copies from AIP Public Information, >physnews aip.org) > >I am studying now Hal Fox's report re. PPC at SOFE, it is the >most complete document on the subject till now. >Best regards, >Peter Gluck Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 01:39:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05486; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:38:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:38:34 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000101bd5fac$fe6b4b20$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Less is Potentially More? Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 02:34:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"DrCLE1.0.eL1.P-V9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17345 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Capacitance C of Space, 8.84E-12 Farads/Meter,the Potential V, Time T and Length L, seem to be the only Four properties required to establish a Material Universe. Energy, W = 1/2 CV^2 Charge, Q = CV (a constant) C = eo*L as L ie., C goes to zero V becomes infinite and vice versa. As a "line" oscillates in Length in Simple Harmonic motion with a period T or it's reciprocal, a Frequency F. <-----> <----> <---> <--> <--> <-> <> <-> <--> <---> <----> <----->, Are Particles just "Lines" oscillating in length in SHM , that can be interpreted as a point moving in a circle as a sine or cosine function? F = 1/T thus as T goes to zero F becomes infinite as does Energy. LESS IS MORE! In a Vortex, r*L/T = a constant, (L/T = v) which means that as r goes to zero L/T (v)becomes infinite or stops at the speed of light c? Conclusion: Space has no "Physical' properties, only Capacitance and Potential. A large volume of Space has lots of Capacitance, but very little Potential,ie., Singularities and Vortexes,have it all. Simple, isn't it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 02:56:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11147; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 02:55:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 02:55:39 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <002d01bd5fb7$c7c87920$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Off Topic, Gopher Wars Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 03:52:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZOys_1.0.5k2.g6X9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17346 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Got it! A Six Cubic yard Front-End Loader (about 300 horsepower) at $60.00/hour,will stay ahead of your average gopher. We moved about 500 yards of good soil to a depth of 2 feet yesterday. This was to restore what those little suckers moved in a couple of years, back to it's original site. The Colorado Experiment using a modified Street Vacuum was tried in the Rio Grande Valley of New Mexico. Sucked up to THREE gophers in TWO WEEKS! :-) Phase 2 will entail screening the dirt through a 1" mesh sieve to separate out said gophers. They will be for sale at $2,000 each, so that the $60.00/hour cost of the Loader and screening will be defrayed. Make Checks or Money Orders Payable TO: Gopher Inc, P.O. Box 7, Gopher Hole, NM 870007-4498-3 Visa, Mastercard, American Express and Socony Vacuum Credit Cards Honored (but not accepted) No C.O.D. orders Please. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 06:41:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28936; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:39:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 06:39:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:39:40 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: good by In-Reply-To: <35257A3D.2D39 math.ucla.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"l8M6M2.0.147.wOa9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17347 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Barry Merriman wrote: > > > > Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > > > > Frank - > > > > > > > I have just read that Bill Beaty is pulling the plug. I > > > > would like to say good by to all. > > > > > > Frank, Noooo.... > > > > > > It was just a joke. > > > > The gullibility of some folks never ceases to amaze me. It > > would be hard to ever give much credence to their beliefs.... > > > > (Of course, perhaps Frank was the one making the joke :-) > > -- Perhaps the whole list is one big joke. Has anyone won your 100K bet? What is it now?, 9 years, >$200million spent, top labs, top experimentalists. No mickey take intended. It's a free world, easy to silence one 'prophet' perhaps, but with the internet and easy disemination of info. why isn't it on tv, stocks, public chatter on the underground. Oh there's a massive conspiracy by OPEC, CIA, Mossad, MI6, KGB, La Cosa Nostra, Spectre, The Misterons, Ming the Merciless... (add your favourite group). Faraday, Edison, Tesla, Wright Brothers, Marconi all managed to do it without our IT infrastructure. Those ideas weren't nipped in the bud. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 07:26:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01232; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:19:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:19:34 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <004701bd5fdc$a826c980$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: good by Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:15:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"cKrSp3.0.5J.5-a9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17348 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Cornwall RO To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, April 04, 1998 7:40 AM Subject: Re: good by Remi wrote: > >Perhaps the whole list is one big joke. Has anyone won your 100K bet? >What is it now?, 9 years, >$200million spent, top labs, top >experimentalists. No mickey take intended. It's a free world, easy to >silence one 'prophet' perhaps, but with the internet and easy >disemination of info. why isn't it on tv, stocks, public chatter on the >underground. Oh there's a massive conspiracy by OPEC, CIA, Mossad, MI6, >KGB, La Cosa Nostra, Spectre, The Misterons, Ming the Merciless... (add >your >favourite group). Boy Scouts of America, The Order of The Tortoise, Bill's Auto Sales, and to get in a plug for Gopher Inc., in Gopher Hole, New Mexico USA. Guidance and Counseling at 1-900-GOPHER BROKE at just $10.00/minute (U.S). :-) >Faraday, Edison, Tesla, Wright Brothers, Marconi all managed to do it >without our IT infrastructure. Those ideas weren't nipped in the bud. Regards, Frederick >Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 08:35:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22000; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:31:38 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:31:38 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 17:29:43 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: good by In-Reply-To: <004701bd5fdc$a826c980$318cbfa8 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7xMuT.0.gN5.e1c9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17349 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > Boy Scouts of America, The Order of The Tortoise, Bill's Auto Sales, and to > get in a plug for Gopher Inc., in Gopher Hole, New Mexico USA. Guidance and > Counseling at 1-900-GOPHER BROKE at just $10.00/minute (U.S). :-) > Amazing what putting a few letters before/after a name or title does to the image eg: INC, LTD, Dr, PhD. I was almost tempted to 'subscribe' to Gopher Inc.'s output. No con tricks, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 08:58:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24685; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:48:45 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:48:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:46:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199804041646.IAA29781 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: D2O sonoluminescence question Resent-Message-ID: <"M2qGI1.0.c16.hHc9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17350 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 04:11 PM 4/3/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: > >>planning to set up a sonoluminescence experiment > >>the effect of using heavy water instead of the usual purified and degassed >tap >water? Yes. You can make SL with D2O. See Gaitan's home page, search for Gaitan plus sonoluminescence. Nothing really wierd happens but the light intensity is less and the spectrum shifted. Each fluid tried, such as ethanol oils etc behave differently. Most do not produce SL. H2O is pretty ideal for SL research. One of the key things found is that doping the gas with a bit of argon or other noble gases tends to increase the intensity of the light. And bubbles without these impurities at about 1 percent, in water, fail to produce SL light. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 09:27:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20412; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:24:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:24:35 -0800 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000401bd5fee$2e6d1d80$5c8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: good by Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:21:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"PlpdP.0.q-4.Hpc9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17351 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Cornwall RO To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, April 04, 1998 9:31 AM Subject: Re: good by Remi wrote: >On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> Boy Scouts of America, The Order of The Tortoise, Bill's Auto Sales, and to >> get in a plug for Gopher Inc., in Gopher Hole, New Mexico USA. Guidance and >> Counseling at 1-900-GOPHER BROKE at just $10.00/minute (U.S). :-) >> > >Amazing what putting a few letters before/after a name or title does to >the image eg: INC, LTD, Dr, PhD. I was almost tempted to 'subscribe' to >Gopher Inc.'s output. > >No con tricks, Ain't that the truth? That "Attorney at Law" title is into me for $125.00/hour on a Real Estate transaction. I can move at lot more Real Estate for a lot less with that $60.00/hour Pay-Loader. Regards, Frederick J. Sparber (SMM.WASASE.TY) (send me money with a self-addressed stamped envelope,thank you) :-) >Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 19:08:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25197; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:58:22 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:58:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:50:30 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Papers (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-q7bT2.0.b96.CDl9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17352 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., From time to time I have mentioned work I have done with EEG. In 1986 I reduced to practice a system which ... in general ... can be said to make sense of one aspect of the human EEG. I designed and built the system with my own two hands. This resulted in much work, many papers and some popular press. Below is a partial listing of the papers and press. I will flag the seminal paper and one of the best lay treatments of the work. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:23:41 -0500 (EST) From: John Schnurer To: John Schnurer Subject: Papers Junker, A.M., Downey, C.W., Schnurer, J.H., and Ingle, D.F. Loop-closure of the visual-cortical Response, Proceedings of the 1988 NAECON , 1523-1529, 1988.  Junker, A.M., Ingle, D.F., Schnurer, J.H., and Downey, C.W. Resource measurement using a closed-loop EEG control system. Proceedings of the 1988 NAECON , 1519-1522, 1988. Junker, A.M., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., and Downey, C.W. Brain actuated control of a roll axis tracking simulator. Proceedings of the 1989 NAECON, 714-717, 1989. Junker, A.M., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., and Downey, C.W. Loop-Closure of the Visual-Cortical Response. Armstrong Aerospace Medical Research Laboratories, Human Systems Division, Air Force Systems Command, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, AAMRL- TR-88-014, 1988. Junker, A.M., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., and Downey, C.W. Steady state evoked potentials possibilities for mental state estimation. Proceedings of the 1987 NASA Mental State Estimation Conference , 1 , 131-154, 1987. ------------ Junker, A.M., Tumey, D.M., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., and Downey, C.W. Brain actuated control of a motion base simulator. Proceedings of the 1989 NAECON, 750-751, 1989. ------------------------ Main paper describing the method. Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., Downey, C.W., and Junker, A.M. A real time frequency analysis methodology for evoked potential loop-closure. Proceedings of the NAECON , 1530-1535, 1988. -------------------- Nasman, V.T., Ingle, D. and Schnurer, J. (1994). Differential hemispheric activation as a possible mechanism for SSVER self-regulation. Psychophysiology, 31, S71. (abstract) ----------------------------------------------- FES is the actual leg muscle stimulation. Calhoun, G.L., McMillan, G.R., Morton, P.E., Middendorf, M.S., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F., Glaser, R.M., & Figoni, S.F. (1995). Control of functional electrical stimulation with a direct brain interface. Proceedings of the RESNA 18th Annual Conference, 696-698. ----------------------- McMillan, G.R., Calhoun, G.L., Middendorf, M.S., Schnurer, J.H., Ingle, D.F. & Nasman, V.T. (1995). Direct brain interface utilizing self-regulation of the steady state visual evoked response. Proceedings of the RESNA 18th Annual Conference, 693-698. This one was very cool. We showed how to take a direct brain signal and be able to use it to allow a quad to move leg muscles. ---------------- POPULAR PRESS: *Mind over Matter.* Discover, p. 16, August 1990. Whitaker, Robert, *Mind Games: Devices give new dimension to power of the brain.* Times Union, Albany New York, , pp. A-1, A-8, August 8, 1993. Whitaker, Robert, *Mind Control: A thought can move computers to action.* The Boston Globe, pp. 25-26, August 16, 1993. *Just give it some thought.* Skywrighter: for the Wright-Patterson Community, pg. 5, October 22, 1993. Williams, Lisa, *Brain Over Matter: New Virtual reality technolgoy enables people to operate machine simplay by thinking about it.* Skywrighter: for the Wright-Patterson Community, Vol. 34, No. 43, pps 1, 6, October 29, 1993. Oliveri, Frank, *Flying with Brain Waves*, a side bar in *Virtual Warriers*, Air Force Magazine, pg. 33, January 1994. ---------------------------- Daviss, Bennett, *Brain Powered*. Discover, pp 58-65, May 1994. Best lay treatment. ------------------ Hitchens, Theresa, *For the USAF, It*s the Thought That Counts: Service Experiments With Human Brain Waves to Control Fighter Cockpits*. Defense News, pg. 12, August 15-21, 1994. (Correction printed Defense News, pg. 4, August 29-September 4, 1994.) *Nervenimpulse steuern Computer: Forscher zapfen das Gehirn an auf der Suche nach neuen Kommunikationskanalen*. Focus, Nr. 28, pp. 104-112, Juli 1994. [German] Scott, William, *Neurotechnologies Linked to Performance Gains.* Aviation Week and Space Technolgoy, pp 55-56, August 15, 1994. Daviss, Bennett, *Thinking It Through*, Air and Space, Vol. 9, No. 3, p. 10, August/September, 1994, *Pilot steuert Maschine mit seinem Geist*, P.M.: Peter Moosleitners interessantes Magazin, Nr. 10, p. 26, 23 Septeber 1994. [German] Shine, Jerry, *Mind Games: Thanks to brain-actuated control, the phrase *Look Ma, no hands* may take on a whole new meaning.* Sky magazine, Delta Air Lines, Volume 23, No. 10, pp. 120-127, October 1994. Shine, Jerry, *Control by Thought: Think and it*s done! Electrodes can now monitor brain waves and convert them into electronic signals that turn off the light or move a computer*s cursor.* The World and I, The Washington Times Corporation, Vol. 9, No. 10, pp. 194-201, October 1994. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 4 21:57:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA31438; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:50:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 21:50:27 -0800 Message-ID: <35271A7C.674C keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 23:45:32 -0600 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: $61 Russian Geiger Counter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jYz3h.0.8h7.Xkn9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17353 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! Thought some of you guys might be interested in buying one of these, I have ordered one to add to my equipment list. Here is the description from the Borderlands article by Gerry Vassilatos (3rd quarter 1997) about the Russian Geiger Counter for $65.... Borderlan Sciences - PO BOX 220 - Bayside, CA - 95524 $25.00 yearly subscription - Voice: (707) 825-7733 - FAX: (707) 825-7779 Note: the article it came from was 'Induced Radioactivity by Solar Light' Very accurate measurements can be obtained with a handheld Russian-made Geiger Counter, the BELBAR RKSB (MIKON-104). This counter was purchased from David Shannon Minerals (1-602-985-0557) at a more reasonable price ($61.00 with shipping). Most equivalent American models are exhorbitant in price and far less accurate. The unit is small (6 X 3 X 1 inches) and lightweight, making for an easy means by which numerous field readings may be made in a short time period. The reliable performance of this convenient and remarkably inexpensive unit provides well-calibrated readings in either alpha, beta or gamma radiations. As described in the translated instruction brochure, a few simple modifications of DIP switches on the back panel permit threshold sensitization to specific rays. The removal of its molded plastic back panel exposes the Geiger Tubes to any radiation source and, once set to do so, counts individual events. Radiation counts from two internal 3 inch Geiger tubes are amplified by solid state electronics and displayed on a large black and gray LCD. Automatic interpolations can be obtained by appropriate switch assignments, and an interpolated hourly exposure in MicroRoentgens is then displayed. The MIKON-104 mad measurements more convenient than my RADIAC equipment, a bulky military unit. Originally manufactured for use in the Soviet nuclear industry, the MIKON unit is provided with an extensively documented passport (1992 validation). This documentation was stamped and signed by Soviet technical officials before release from the manufacturer, an admirable quality-control feature. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 10:04:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17612; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804051655.MAA06242 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Guillen Hammers Park Date: Sun, 5 Apr 98 11:59:16 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"1BwJk3.0.xI4.bXx9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17354 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: ABC Television's Dr. Michael Guillen, who has given very appropriate coverage to cold fusion, has eloquently put down the APS's Big Mouthpiece, science bigot Dr. Robert L. Park -- see below. We are still waiting for Park to show up at an international cold fusion conference or to scientifically discuss the literature in that field -- rather than perenially pissing on the field from his exalted postion as chief propagandist for the physics establishment. Gene Mallove Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com >From What's New by Robert Park (which can be found at www.aps.org) Friday, 23 January 98 Washington, DC 1. MICHAEL GUILLEN RESPONDS TO OCTOBER 3rd "WHAT'S NEW" ITEM: Good Morning America's series Fringe or Frontier did not tout ESP, psychokinesis or the astrology-like Mars Effect. Rather, it featured the experiments of serious-minded scientists at reputable institutions (Princeton, Universities of Nevada, Gottingen and Edinburgh) attempting to apply the rigorous scientific method to those three subjects. It also featured the opinions of Doubting Thomases (though not of Believers) and I personally maintained my skepticism throughout. In my ten years at ABC-TV, furthermore, I have presented nearly a thousand stories on major mainstream scientific developments. Yet Mr. Park chooses only to harp on those fewer than a dozen that he considers unworthy of the public's attention. He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but I cannot allow it to censor the work of people with whom he disagrees. Also, with regard to Mr. Park's observation that I am "uniquely positioned to help millions of viewers understand that they live in a rational universe," I see my responsibility very differently. As a journalist (or physicist and teacher for that matter) I am not in the business of espousing any one philosophical world-view or of disabusing viewers of their alleged superstitions, either Mr. Park's or anyone else's. My goal is to report accurately and open-mindedly any interesting and credible goings-on within science, be they orthodox or iconoclastic. Mr. Park has publicly complained: "The problem is that he treats them as open and important scientific questions that must be taken seriously." Unless Mr. Park knows something I don't, the questions we entertained are exactly that. They're open, as evidenced by the continuing disagreement among intelligent, well-educated people. They're important, as evidenced by the attention millions of people pay to them and by the existence of publications such as the Skeptical Inquirer. And if we don't consider them scientific questions, then we relinquish the responsibility of settling them once-and -for-all to the quacks and extremists on both sides who have traditionally dominated the discussion. (Note: Back issues of WN can be accessed and searched from the APS homepage, www.aps.org.) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 12:22:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20916; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:12:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001801bd60c5$e1303a60$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Superstring Circles-Vortex Limits Etc. Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:05:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"KoguQ2.0.c65.JUz9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17355 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: For a vortex in a plane, the product of the radius times the tangential velocity (v*r) is a constant, and the tangential velocity varies inversely as the radius, ie., v = 1/r * a constant. Taken in this context, for the spin on a particle: mvr = hbar, v = 137*c and 137*c*r = hbar/m. Is hbar/m the "constant" for the "vortex" of a Superstring Circle particle? Then since c*r = hbar/(137*m) = hbar*alpha/m the "fine structure constant" alpha equals m*c*r/hbar or spin/hbar so that "particle vortexes" can only exist at quantized particle energies? For the Particle Radius-Energy: q = CV = (+/-) 1.602E-19 (coulombs) E = mc^2 = 1/2 C*V^2 (joules) C = 0.5*q^2/E (farads) R = 0.5*q^2/(2(pi)*eo*E (meters) or, R = k*q^2/E (meters) (eo = 8.84E-12 farads/meter) (c = 2.997925E8 meters/second) Any "Vortex Limit" for a Black Hole? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 12:36:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25442; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980405152748.0070a240 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 15:27:48 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Cold Fusion Times web site updated Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"c69Pd2.0.KD6.znz9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17356 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 5, '98 Cold Fusion Times vol 6 number 2 (Spring '98) is on its way to subscribers' hands. The cover page is obtainable at the web site located at URL http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html The Spring 1998 issue (vol 6, num 2) of the COLD FUSION TIMES focuses on the increasing number of conference papers and technical journals which carry cold fusion articles, on the Italian ASTI conference and the American Physical Society. More than a score of papers are reviewed in this issue. Cold Fusion Results in France, China, Italy, USA, and elsewhere Utah U Officially Ends Maintainance of F+P CF Patent Several other CF patents issue Other Engineering and Research Updates Summary review, and excerpts, of selected papers Analysis of ASTI CF Conference CF & the American Physical Society meeting Materials Issues of Loading Deuterium into Palladium and the Association with Excess Heat Production More Thermal, Nuclear, and Metallurgical Events More on Codeposition and other cold fusion advanced systems More Investigations of Cold Fusion Isotopic Anomalies Additional info on Theory, Calorimetry, and Electrochemistry Gas Loading, Solid State, Electrolysis Systems Impact of and results from Nickel and Palladium Systems Possible Theoretical Consequences of 'Cold Fusion' Experiments Nuclear physics and Material Science in the 'Cold Fusion' Effect ESD, EMI Issues U.S. Air Force CF Insight Tribute to Cold Fusioneer Kevin Wolf Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 13:01:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01515; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804051915.PAA21253 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Italian Testing of CG Cell -- positive results Date: Sun, 5 Apr 98 14:19:33 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"EHHay2.0.UN.g7-9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17357 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Vortexians: Good news.... I have just received a telephone report that a major Italian nuclear labroatory (CISE near Milano) has confirmed that the Cincinnati Group's cell transmutes thorium. A complete report will be given at ICCF-7 in Vancouver, BC -- April 19-24th. (I was told that the CISE lab was the first major laboratory in Italy set up for nuclear measurements after WWII) Preliminary figures -- as best I could get them through Dr. F. Celani's thick accent over the phone: * Test started with 250 mg of hydrated thorium nitrate. * The Th content of this was 102 mg Th * After slightly modified protocol (and the Italian 50 Hz grid difference), 24 mg of thorium had been transmuted -- was no longer chemically present. 78 mg Th remained. * Other elements that emerged were: 3.2 mg boron 1 to 1.5 mg copper (with non-natural isotope ratio) 0.2 mg cesium 0.16 mg mercury Al, V, Cr, Ni, Zn, Pb, Mn -- amounts not gotten over the phone Celani emphasized that the testing results were confirmed by two independent methods: Mass spectroscopy and ICP photometry. The tests have been done several times with similar results. I suggest we wait for a complete report at ICCF7 before the critiques begin. Further ICCF7 news: Matsui will present evidencs of large amounts of helium found in the Pd wire of Celani's electromigration experiment that was run at the NHE lab. I believe the He-4 was 100X background level. Needless to say, we will have a full report in Issue #19 of Infintie Energy -- out in late May. Issue #18 is in the process of being sent out bulk mail right now. Contents are posted on our WWW site. Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 14:43:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16082; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:54 -0700 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Resent-Message-ID: <"_aAI_3.0.7x3.nc_9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17358 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am posting this to vortex simply because if this event is real, it is a once in a lifetime event. Further, if we observe any quasars ejected from this galaxy, our understanding of the universe is going to be set upside down on it's head. This would prove that it is possible to red shift light from other than velocity means, and our understanding of distance measurement in the cosmos would be radically scrutinized. I clipped the full article, which was posted to sci.physics.research, and am posting here my response which I posted to sci.astro Ross Tessien In article <6g8pm5$q2t$1 agate.berkeley.edu>, baez@phys.psu.edu says... > >Is anyone here familiar with the recent observations of the Seyfert >galaxy IRAS 18325-5926 which could be interpreted as indicating a >massive black hole binary system that would merge on or before April >31st? > >Apparently in December 1997 researchers observed X-ray emissions with >a period of 11 hours, significantly shorter than those seen previously >in March 1997, and this February they saw a periodicity of 7.8 hours. >They regard it as a priori "very unlikely" to stumble like this upon >in-spiralling black holes right before they collide, but they raise >the possibility because it would be very interesting if true. >From the sounds of this post from John, there is not a lot of time to sit back and then try to say after the fact that certain ideas had already been thought of in advance. So here is a train of ideas I hope will be of interest to researchers studying this object. Steve Carlip, in papers published last fall demonstrates that if you have a super exponential amplification to the energy density that the quantum vacuum may form more states rather than getting hotter, to use a thermodynamic analogy. Thus, more energy could be packed into a smaller volume. Geoffrey Burbidge, in "The Universe at large, key issues in astronomy and cosmology" points out that despite numerous attempts to prove incorrect the associations discovered and first reported by Halton Arp, of quasars apparently being associated with nearby galaxies, that the statistics continues to point toward associations. Numerous papers are cited in that text. But there exists today, no known way for an object to red shift light other than velocity of recession from the observer. Another objection to the idea that quasars are ejecta from galaxies comes from the fact that qso's are not observed with large blue shifts, from being ejected toward us, they all are red shifted. So there would have to be some non velocity means of red shifting light photons IF, QSO's are indeed associated with nearby galaxies as several papers seem to indicate. Today, we think of gravity as an attractive force. We say that gravity is not really best thought of as an attraction force and instead, that we should think of gravity as a curvature of spacetime as described by General Relativity. However, when you read the literature, over and over again you will find when black holes are described, that the author and indeed, virtually if not all physicists consider that a black hole "PULLS" everything inward. That the spacetime is curved such that objects spiral inward is one thing we can conclusively state. That the action derives from a PULL, is something we absolutely cannot state because we do not know, today, the means with which any force whatever transfers action. We know the math describing what will happen, but not HOW. This point is so subtle that most people fail to understand the distinction. Le Sage, in Newton's time, pointed out that gravitation could be a push downward rather than a pull downward. He showed that the mathematics were the same in either case, push or pull. When we change over to Einsteinian gravitation, GR, this distinction becomes lost in the idea of spacetime curvature. If Carlip's work is telling us that the quantum vacuum can take on more than one state, given sufficient impetus to induce a super-exponential amplification of the energy density, then it might be possible that inside of the event horizon, black holes form a core rather than a singularity. The difference in expectations one has are phenomenal. A singularity is pulling inward on itself, and all of the energy confined inside. And yet we know for a fact that our equations fail before we get to the state of a singularity, so it is to me amazing that papers which would challenge the very notion of a singularity inside of a black holes event horizon are deemed controversial. If the equations used to predict a singularity fail where the singularity is formed, then there is no logical reason to support the idea that a singularity actually exists except that we have no superior idea with which to replace this notion, and no superior equations which successfully treat the nature of a singularity such that we can become comfortable that our equations predict, and describe, such an object. For the core, there is no manner for such a thing to remain permanently stable. We have seen this before in Einstein's admission of a cosmological constant because he couldn't believe the universe to be static. A core, maintained by convergent super exponential ramming of the quantum vacuum which forms more states rather than getting hotter, must be continuously confined or it will boil back out to larger dimensions. Note that statement carefully, and think in terms of the big bang inflationary period. If two singularities merge, we should expect fireworks from the matter external to the event horizons slamming into one another. But the singularities inside should remain intact. If two black holes confining intensely pressurized cores inside of their event horizons merge, we should expect that the inflow of the quantum vacuum maintaining their confinement will be disrupted, and thus reduce the rate of amplification of energy density amplification. If this amplification falls below super exponential, then the core should boil out of that weakness in the confinement mechanism. The region of least inflow of the quantum vacuum will be approximately along a line joining the two black holes (though due to the inward spiralling nature, the weakest inflow ramming the core will be to the lee side of the core). Thus, if one or the other of the black hole cores breach confinement, an intense jet of boiling "quantum vacuum" should be shot back out and should accelerate the core away from the merger. It may well be that at least some quasars are due to this process. And if this merger is a real event, and if black holes conceal a core inside, rather than a singularity, then BH mergers should be really violent events and capable of ejecting the cores from the region of the center of the galaxy merger. A black hole core, away from the center of it's host galaxy that had provided the inward ram pressure, could become a white hole, and would be boiling away the contents that had previously flowed in. I cannot say that I expect that this potential BH merger "must" produce a QSO ejection. But I can say that I will not be surprised if we observe the formation of a brand new QSO arise from this merger. So I certainly hope that we already have documented the red shift locations of these galaxies so that if their red shift positions change, we will have observed this change as it occured. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 14:48:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22171; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 17:39:46 -0400 From: Soo Subject: Guillen Hammers Park Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804051740_MC2-390B-2730 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA22151 Resent-Message-ID: <"WgIt53.0.KQ5.Uj_9r" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17359 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene Nice alliteration. love Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 14:50:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18480; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:47:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:47:23 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <004601bd60dc$02dab080$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Faster-Than-Light Vortexes? Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 15:43:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"otnBi2.0.dW4.fl_9r" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17360 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Snell's Law for total internal reflection of a wave: Sin theta critical = (e2/e1)^1/2 Where e2 is the permittivity of space, 8.84E-12 farad/meter, and e1 is the permittivity of a material medium. However, if the permittivity (Capacitance) of a Vortex in space is less than e2, this would account for the faster than speed-of-light c ie., 137*c spin velocity of the electron etc. Or is it a "phase velocity"? Then c' = 1/(u1*e1)^1/2 = 137*c and e1 = e2/137^2 or e2*(alpha)^2. FTL "wormholes" in space? Tachyons? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 18:50:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26215; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <006301bd60fc$4db9f6e0$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:34:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ufI2O1.0.XP6.0A3Ar" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17361 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Momentarily distracted from reading Paul Tibbets' book; Enola Gay, it seems that since the Vortex created by the particles is opening Space to a radius R = kq^2/E with the 137*c "Phase Velocity", one might auger through this man-made EM "Time Tunnel". One might consider generating a circular wave that does this out to a radius large enough to let a spacecraft through. The inertia of the circular "auger wave" m = E/c^2 could be used to develop thrust for the craft. The theory relating to "Twistors" is along similar lines. What time is it,anyhow? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 18:53:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02935; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:49:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:49:39 -0700 Message-ID: <35283304.221C skylink.net> Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:42:28 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park References: <199804051655.MAA06242 mercury.mv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LMhcF2.0.fj.nI3Ar" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17362 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: E.F. Mallove wrote: > ABC Television's Dr. Michael Guillen, who has given very appropriate > coverage to cold fusion, has eloquently put down the APS's Big > Mouthpiece, science bigot Dr. Robert L. Park -- see below. We are still > waiting for Park to show up at an international cold fusion conference or > rather than perenially pissing on the field from his exalted postion as > chief propagandist for the physics establishment. Gene. Please don't be bashful. Tell us what you really think. Ya gotta love it. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 19:33:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12733; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:26:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:26:32 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <1461aefa.35283d2a aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:25:45 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: CETI just updated home page Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"DdSNr3.0.p63.Nr3Ar" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17363 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: see ceti Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 20:16:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09643; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 20:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 20:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352847AE.6069 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 23:10:38 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? References: <006301bd60fc$4db9f6e0$458cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IRDjC2.0.YM2.DW4Ar" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17364 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > To Vortex: > > Momentarily distracted from reading Paul Tibbets' book; Enola Gay, it seems > that since > the Vortex created by the particles is opening Space to a radius R = kq^2/E > with the 137*c "Phase Velocity", one might auger through this man-made EM > "Time Tunnel". > > One might consider generating a circular wave that does this out to a radius > large enough to let a spacecraft through. OK, that's it, Fred! - I want a set of PLANS! If I can't get ball lightning in my garage, well, a man-sized worm hole might take my mind off the pain. I might be able to warp out west to see you, catch some sun, and be back before my wife missed me. Come to think of it, I probably have at least a week before the gargage needs to be set out again. I could fly United and do that! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 20:16:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23052; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 20:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 20:12:30 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00a201bd6109$7010efc0$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: cetitalk2 website2 (http://biz.onramp.net/ceti/page4.html) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:09:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD60D7.17F047A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"rSVXB1.0.Td5.SW4Ar" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17365 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD60D7.17F047A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://biz.onramp.net/ceti/page4.html ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD60D7.17F047A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="cetitalk2 website2.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="cetitalk2 website2.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://biz.onramp.net/ceti/page4.html Modified=C05CB04F0961BD0143 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD60D7.17F047A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 5 22:11:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28824; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:08:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804060506.AAA21115 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Italian Testing of CG Cell -- positive results In-Reply-To: <199804051915.PAA21253 mercury.mv.net> from "E.F. Mallove" at "Apr 5, 98 02:19:33 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:06:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Eh08T.0.F27.BD6Ar" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17366 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > I have just received a telephone report that a major Italian nuclear > labroatory (CISE near Milano) has confirmed that the Cincinnati Group's > cell transmutes thorium. > I suggest we wait for a complete report at ICCF7 before the critiques > begin. I can't. :-) > [before] The Th content of this was 102 mg Th > [after] 24 mg of thorium had been transmuted -- was no longer > chemically present. 78 mg Th remained. > > * Other elements that emerged were: > > 3.2 mg boron > 1 to 1.5 mg copper (with non-natural isotope ratio) > 0.2 mg cesium > 0.16 mg mercury > > Al, V, Cr, Ni, Zn, Pb, Mn -- amounts not gotten over the phone I sure hope there are 19mg's of "other stuff" somewhere. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 02:55:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18618; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 02:54:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 02:54:20 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00ea01bd6141$8a63b280$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 03:50:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"tKMgY.0.pY4.BPAAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17367 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? Frank Stenger wrote: > >OK, that's it, Fred! - I want a set of PLANS! >If I can't get ball lightning in my garage, well, a man-sized worm >hole might take my mind off the pain. Sorry that you were interrupted just when you were not getting anywhere with your lightning balls, Frank. Robert "The Wizard of Wendover" Golka had rented the B-29 Hangar that was used for out-fitting the Enola Gay, from the Air Force for $1.00/year. He had set up Tesla's experiment in the Hangar in his ball lightning quest and explained all of this to me when he was a house guest some 20 years back. Seems that the Lightning Bolt creates microwave "Vortex Streets"? that can go through dielectrics and seemingly carry the plasma of ionized gas-air right through a thick glass or a brick wall. :-) I think that the more efficient microwave pulse generators would give a better yield of "ball lightning". Then when you get really good at this, you can use some circular reasoning to build the "Twistor Field Generator" needed for the Time Tunnel field. :-) I might be able to warp out >west to see you, catch some sun, and be back before my wife missed me. Would she? :-) >Come to think of it, I probably have at least a week before the garbage >needs to be set out again. I could fly United and do that! United beats Disjointed, Frank. Best Regards, Frederick > >Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 04:10:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26720; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 04:08:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 04:08:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:07:51 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: VORTEX Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park In-Reply-To: <199804051655.MAA06242 mercury.mv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"MzOSf.0.LX6.SUBAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17368 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eugene, You're a clever chap, MIT right?, I don't doubt you integrity, but why after all these years don't you have something that works 100% of the time? It doesn't have to be practical, that's left to engineering. Surely after >$200million dollars of reasearch you'd have some gadget. Mainstream might be bigotted and closed minded but if you have something that works, they must publish. Or maybe with all this endeavour you'd be selling kits and real people would be gaining real rewards from their use - sod what the establishment says. I really can't accept the conspiracy line - it's a free world, you'd have to try very hard to silence a cast of thousands. What say you? What's your quote on the stock market? Have you ever read Rumplestilkin or the Emperor's new clothes? I'd really like to believe you because I'd buy shares, devices, learn about their engineering etc. It's easy to get delusional when you've got so much invested. So, once again, . Stock market quote, . People's reduced fuel bills, . The entry in McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Technology . Oh, and a device setup and running in a UK university so that this Doubting Thomas can be converted and invest time and money studying it. Remi. (I don't mean to sound polemical) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 04:48:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA31513; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 04:45:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 04:45:28 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00f401bd6151$0a485640$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 05:41:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"PFgWx.0.Ii7.N1CAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17369 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go,Frank S., while you sip your coffee and spoon feed yourself with porridge. The "UFO" gyrations that seem to defy physics with instantaneous direction change that would crush any ship or occupant,could be time warp that to one in a different reference frame would see as seemingly impossible maneuvers. This could "fool" RADAR into thinking nothing was there or moving at enormous speeds, as well as make it a bit difficult for pursuit. :-) Think about it, when you get the Time. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 06:31:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11294; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804061318.JAA17939 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park Date: Mon, 6 Apr 98 08:22:19 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"gyl9X.0.Om2.-RDAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17370 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi wrote: >Eugene, > >You're a clever chap, MIT right?, I don't doubt you integrity, but why >after all these years don't you have something that works 100% of the >time? It doesn't have to be practical, that's left to engineering. MIT background is irrelevant. It took me years to realize what bullshit the "Tech is Hell", "we are better than everybody" MIT aura is. Students are great, many profs are too. But overall, MIT is a bastion of frontier-science-killing, money-sucking bureaucracy..Liars and thieves are rewarded. Frontier scientists are suppressed. Assholes like Nobel laureate Henry Kendall (of the UCS) are glorified. These hot cells DO exist! They are in a handfull -- about six labs/companies. I tested one such device recently and there was no doubt about it -- definitely and wonderfully O/U in the 100 watt plus range (but I'm on NDA with them - too bad). These folks have a VERY LOW priority on selling anything! Go figure! We have screamed at them for demo units and they DON'T GET IT. They WANT to he secretive. This allows the fence straddlers to straddle indefinitely and the critics to piss endlessley. But the bad news for some of these folks is this: Once we get one very solid and massively large O/U device from someone else -- oh, that blessed day! -- their stuff may look rather pale by comparison, because we WILL demo it permanently and do our best to help get ti to market. > Surely >after >$200million dollars of reasearch you'd have some gadget. Jed, Chris, and I never had $200 million! We had and have far less than Little and Puthoff to work with right now. If we had had it, this war would have been over years ago. Most of the do-gooder philanthropists are funding solar power, windmills, and the Onion (Union) of Concerned Scientists -- not CF and New Energy. But that is changing... Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 06:37:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11988; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804061330.JAA20100 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park Date: Mon, 6 Apr 98 08:34:09 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"m2REc2.0.Ex2.4dDAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17371 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Striniman wrtoe: >Gene. Please don't be bashful. >Tell us what you really think. > >Ya gotta love it. Robert, What I REALLY think of Park is not printable! :) Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 07:46:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28607; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 07:43:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 07:43:24 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:42:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: VORTEX Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park In-Reply-To: <199804061318.JAA17939 mercury.mv.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ngm1.0.q-6.AeEAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17372 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene write: > > These hot cells DO exist! They are in a handfull -- about six > labs/companies. I tested one such device recently and there was no doubt > about it -- definitely and wonderfully O/U in the 100 watt plus range > (but I'm on NDA with them - too bad). These folks have a VERY LOW > priority on selling anything! > Gotta be CETI. Just a guess! Cheers Martin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 08:10:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA32703; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:01:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:01:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:00:39 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: VORTEX Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park In-Reply-To: <199804061318.JAA17939 mercury.mv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aTZ4P2.0.n-7.quEAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17373 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gene, Don't take this to heart, I'm not suggesting it applies to CF but people see CF as delusional, or fraudulent. 'It's become another lobby' is what they say. > These hot cells DO exist! They are in a handfull -- about six Well, sell some. > about it -- definitely and wonderfully O/U in the 100 watt plus range 100 Watt? Should be darn easy to measure. > priority on selling anything! Go figure! We have screamed at them for > demo units and they DON'T GET IT. They WANT to he secretive. This allows Why be secretive? They award patents to software, clockwork radios...(er, that's a clockwork mechanism connected to a dynamo, I'm sure both were invented way back). If I had a device that prod. 100W o/u I'd be kicking down the door of Phys. Rev., the whitehouse, the UN. 100W excess even if it was the size of a house would be hard to miss - and useful. > Once we get one very solid and massively large O/U device from someone > else -- oh, that blessed day! -- their stuff may look rather pale by > comparison, because we WILL demo it permanently and do our best to help > get ti to market. Read an account of the development of reverse osmosis water desalination. In its early days it was called evokcatively 'surface skimming' as it was viewed as collecting the preferential adsorption of water at a surface over the salt. The early experiments got a ml of water - this was enough to get the supervising prof. to jump out of his sick bed and realise it could be engineered. Lots of openness, lots of funding, lots of credibility. > > Surely > >after >$200million dollars of reasearch you'd have some gadget. > > Jed, Chris, and I never had $200 million! We had and have far less than > Little and Puthoff to work with right now. If we had had it, this war > would have been over years ago. The Japanese, the French? Correct me if I'm wrong. Seems odd to me that more money is spent disproving something than proving it. One should be dispassioned, no? Little seems reasonable and very competent. I haven't seen Puthoff's contribution, his time's on zpe. > Most of the do-gooder philanthropists are funding solar power, windmills, > and the Onion (Union) of Concerned Scientists -- not CF and New Energy. > But that is changing... I agree, if they can spend 100's million on a film about a sinking ship they can be persuaded to fund something more worthy - then make the film - who'd play you? Kind regards, Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 08:12:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00985; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:06:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:06:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3528EF91.5959 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:06:57 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? References: <00ea01bd6141$8a63b280$458cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Cn4ie.0.DF.3-EAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17375 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Sorry that you were interrupted just when you were not getting anywhere... Gee, Fred, I thought that was a requirement for getting on Vortex!?!? > > Robert "The Wizard of Wendover" Golka had rented the B-29 Hangar that was > used for out-fitting the Enola Gay, from the Air Force for $1.00/year. > > He had set up Tesla's experiment in the Hangar > in his ball lightning quest and explained all of this to me when he was a > house guest some 20 years back. > > Seems that the Lightning Bolt creates microwave > "Vortex Streets"? Filled with vortex street walkers, I assume? - sounds "hot"! :-) ...that can go through dielectrics and seemingly carry the > plasma of ionized gas-air right through a thick glass or > a brick wall. :-) > > I think that the more efficient microwave pulse generators would give a > better yield of "ball > lightning" Err, like the ones I make in the microwave? > > Then when you get really good at this, you can use some circular reasoning > to build the "Twistor Field Generator" needed for the Time Tunnel field. > :-) You're just a big tease, Fred! Frank S. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 08:14:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26221; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35291943.50E9 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:04:51 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: Pena to leave DOE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KS6-k3.0.TP6.2_EAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17374 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Our local radio station just announced that Frederico Pena will announce his resignation as head of the DOE today. No reason was given. Too innovative? Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 09:04:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06061; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804061557.LAA21383 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Stan Gleeson in Hospital Date: Mon, 6 Apr 98 11:01:15 -0500 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"SCrNZ.0.aU1._mFAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17376 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vortexians: I have the sad news to report that Stan Gleeson of the Cincinnati Group has been admitted to a hospital. He has been diagnosed with a treatable form of leukemia and is now undergoing chemotherapy and vitamin A treatment. He is expected to be released within about three weeks. Those wishing to send him cards or messages may do so at: Attn: Stan Gleeson Good Samaritan Hospital 375 Dixmyth Avenue Cincinnati, OH 45220 The malady was discovered at a dentist's appointment. He thought he had an abscessed tooth, but the dentist discovered otherwise and he was taken by ambulence to the hospital. Best, Gene Mallove Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 09:50:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09628; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:43:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:43:38 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <015101bd617a$b4fe21e0$458cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Energy Secretary Pena Resigns (http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/DailyNews/pen Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:40:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD6148.6152D540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"vrkrs.0.MM2.uOGAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17377 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD6148.6152D540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/DailyNews/pena980406.html ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD6148.6152D540 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Energy Secretary Pena Resigns.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Energy Secretary Pena Resigns.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/DailyNews/pena980406.html Modified=002151987A61BD01A3 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BD6148.6152D540-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 10:59:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31023; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:56:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:56:21 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980406135320.0070f25c world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:53:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Re: Guillen Hammers Park Cc: Cornwall RO In-Reply-To: References: <199804051655.MAA06242 mercury.mv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"e8tjC.0.Ua7.3THAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17378 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi: At 12:07 PM 4/6/98 +0100, you wrote: > Surely >after >$200million dollars of research you'd have some gadget. Where did this number come from? Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 12:01:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10715; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:54:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:54:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:51:42 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Messages disappear Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804061453_MC2-391F-AC2F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"iO1NP3.0.Jd2.qJIAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17379 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-L eskimo.com Testing Vortex connection . . . Messages I have sent over the last two weeks vanished without a trace. They did not bounce. It must be the Bermuda Triangle! Or the Trilateral Commission. Or El Nino . . . - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:00:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23303; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:51:18 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Cydonia image available Resent-Message-ID: <"kQ2yR3.0.0i5.fAJAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17380 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Mars Observer image of the Cydonia area on Mars is now available on: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/index.html The face is clearly visable with higher resolution than the previous image and it still is a perfect image of a face. Also now all sides of the DM pyramid is visable and the perfect symmetry structure is preserved. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:21:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23751; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:15:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:15:31 -0700 Message-ID: <001e01bd6198$2714cdc0$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: Cydonia image available Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:10:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"lknZQ3.0.lo5.VVJAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17381 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ha! You had me going there for a second... Craig -----Original Message----- From: Larry Wharton To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 2:58 PM Subject: Cydonia image available > The Mars Observer image of the Cydonia area on Mars is now available on: > >http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/index.html > >The face is clearly visable with higher resolution than the previous image >and it still is a perfect image of a face. Also now all sides of the DM >pyramid is visable and the perfect symmetry structure is preserved. > >Lawrence E. Wharton >NASA/GSFC code 913 >Greenbelt MD 20771 >(301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:23:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24025; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:17:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:17:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:14:40 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Old Vortex address defunct Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804061616_MC2-391F-B2DC compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"1W0-W3.0.Dt5.2XJAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17382 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com My e-mail interface converted the abbreviation "Vortex" into vortex-l mail.eskimo.com. Apparently this is defunct, or non-functional. The correct address is vortex-l eskimo.com. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:27:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26264; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:22:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:22:10 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:14:28 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Cydonia image now blacked out! Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804061616_MC2-391F-B2DB compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"aKRLJ3.0.HQ6.lbJAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17383 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com; >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov Larry Wharton wrote what I thought might be a late April Fool Joke: The Mars Observer image of the Cydonia area on Mars is now available on: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/index.html The face is clearly visible with higher resolution than the previous image and it still is a perfect image of a face. Also now all sides of the DM pyramid is visible and the perfect symmetry structure is preserved. I just tuned into that web page. The three images (low, med and hi res) are all uniformly blacked out. There are no details at all. Larry: I hope you got a hi-res copy, because the original data is gone now. This message is emphatically *not* an April Fool joke. I begin to believe in conspiracy theories. If anyone else tunes in and finds the images intact, I would appreciate a copy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:34:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29274; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:29:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:29:14 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:14:55 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Little's RIFEX experiment misguided Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804061618_MC2-391F-7E69 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Ma_ho2.0.A97.NiJAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17384 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com I have read Scott Little's paper about his RIFEX experiment several times. I agree with his conclusions: the device did not produce heat, and it probably did not produce transmutations. He concluded that it would be better to look for heat first, rather than transmutations: In our opinion further investigation into the possibility of nuclear reactions in the RIFEX kit should be contingent upon confirmation of the excess heat phenomenon. I agree, because heat is easier to detect with confidence. It is much cheaper to investigate. Perhaps Scott thinks that transmutations never happen in the first place unless you get heat. Six months ago I would have agreed, but Mizuno and others make a good case endothermic reactions may produce transmutations without significant heat. The evidence for this is growing. The paper demonstrates that Scott worked hard and did an excellent, highly professional job. The trouble is . . . he did the wrong job. He was not able to investigate isotope shifts, which are the only convincing evidence of transmutations with the RIFEX system. Therefore, I am sorry to say this, but in my opinion this experiment was a waste of time. If he was not set up to look at isotopes, he should not have taken the assignment. U. Illinois looked at some beads after the experiment, and saw weak evidence for a mercury anomaly. This is nothing like the massive transmutations observed in U. Illinois own bead, or the macroscopic transmutations in Ohmori and Mizuno's cathodes, which were confirmed independently by four corporate laboratories. The mercury is at the limits of detection, whereas Ohmori produced so much iron you can see it with the naked eye. The amount of iron in Ohmori's cell is in the same order of magnitude as *all of the original nickel* in the RIFEX cell. The mass of iron is orders of magnitude greater than the mass of all measured contamination of all elements. And the iron isotopes are massively shifted: more than half the sample is Fe-57, which is normally only 2%. The RIFEX cathode has only tiny amounts of thin film nickel to begin with (40 mg, I think), so transmutation would produce only microscopic changes at best. When you look for elements and not isotopes, you can always make a convincing case that apparent microscopic changes come from contamination galvanized on to the bead surface. Scott believes that is what he saw, and I concur, but suppose it wasn't. Suppose this really was transmutation. How would we know? You cannot distinguish tiny amounts of contamination from transmutated metal except by isotope shifts. And there is no way to get isotope shifts except by transmutation. So the shifts are necessary and sufficient proof, unless you believe the hypothesis that electrolysis acts as a fantastically efficient isotope separation mechanism, millions of times better than conventional separation techniques. (That would be a remarkable discovery in its own right.) The CETI circulating electrolyte design is complicated. Its has many components, nooks and crannies which make it prone to contamination, as Scott demonstrated. You can control contamination more easily with a simple test-tube shaped cell made of quartz glass in which all of the component elements have been inventoried. Scott did the wrong experiment superbly well. His work reminds of the NHE, which expended fantastic effort, care and precision in pursuit of the wrong goals, in experiments that anyone familiar with the literature in 1985 could have told them would fail. Fleischmann and others did tell them. This also reminds me of the new IBM Lexington Kentucky printer factory circa 1984. It was the most highly automated printer factory in the world, with $350 million in robotic automation. It cranked out printers with fewer man-hours of labor than any other U.S. or Japanese factory. There were two problems with this arrangement: 1. Assembly line labor costs were only ~2% of total costs. 2. The factory produced obsolete dot matrix printers at a time when laser printers were rapidly growing in popularity. It was a superb solution to the wrong problem. See P. Carroll, "Big Blues," (Crown, 1993), p. 134. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:53:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01397; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:42:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:42:59 -0700 Message-ID: <35293E5B.29E0 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 16:43:07 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: TESTS - MARINOV RELATED References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7oDG1.0.kL.HvJAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17385 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > (snip) > But is it complete? Still looks like a compass needle in a wire's field to > me. It will stabilize and stop in one position though, and resist further > motion there. I don't see what keeps it going (magnet assembly as spinning > armature here, ring as stator). Rick, it was my understanding that even the Marinov fans don't think the magnet assembly should keep rotating if the ring is fixed. I believe the relation of the ring feed points to the magnet orientation must remain fixed as in the brushed-rotating-ring case. For the magnets to rotate continuously, I believe the contacts must "chase" the magnets around the ring to hold this preferred orientation - or, the current must be turned on and off to produce one-way torque. Marinov fans - is this right?? My tests indicate such a rotating magnet motor with switched feed current WOULD WORK - but my rotating ring failed to give me any hint of torque as best I could sort out from my brush drag. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 13:54:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02154; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:45:47 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01bd619c$a40eaea0$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: Cydonia image now blacked out! Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:43:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Um-Iv3.0.TX.txJAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17386 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, I believe you're looking at the unprocessed image. I can't get any contrast to come out in my copy of the image, either. The raw Viking images were pretty bad, too, but the contrast could be brought out. I don't know what to make of these. I think Larry was kidding around. Craig -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 3:26 PM Subject: Cydonia image now blacked out! >To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com; >>INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov > >Larry Wharton wrote what I thought might be a late April Fool Joke: > > The Mars Observer image of the Cydonia area on Mars is now available on: > > http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/index.html > > The face is clearly visible with higher resolution than the previous > image and it still is a perfect image of a face. Also now all sides of > the DM pyramid is visible and the perfect symmetry structure is > preserved. > >I just tuned into that web page. The three images (low, med and hi res) are >all uniformly blacked out. There are no details at all. Larry: I hope you got >a hi-res copy, because the original data is gone now. > >This message is emphatically *not* an April Fool joke. I begin to believe in >conspiracy theories. > >If anyone else tunes in and finds the images intact, I would appreciate a >copy. > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 14:12:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02704; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F0892 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Cydonia image now blacked out! Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:45:48 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"P05ou3.0.8g.U_JAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17387 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed I just downloaded the medium resolution image. It has very little contrast, but if I turn my office lights off, I can see the image. Not very impressive, but more or less a face. Hank > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:72240.1256 compuserve.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, April 06, 1998 1:14 PM > To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com > Subject: Cydonia image now blacked out! > > To: >INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com; > >INTERNET:wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov > > Larry Wharton wrote what I thought might be a late April Fool Joke: > > The Mars Observer image of the Cydonia area on Mars is now > available on: > > http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/target/CYD1/index.html > > The face is clearly visible with higher resolution than the > previous > image and it still is a perfect image of a face. Also now all > sides of > the DM pyramid is visible and the perfect symmetry structure is > preserved. > > I just tuned into that web page. The three images (low, med and hi > res) are > all uniformly blacked out. There are no details at all. Larry: I hope > you got > a hi-res copy, because the original data is gone now. > > This message is emphatically *not* an April Fool joke. I begin to > believe in > conspiracy theories. > > If anyone else tunes in and finds the images intact, I would > appreciate a > copy. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 14:48:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16115; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:39:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:39:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3529757C.5196 bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:38:20 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cydonia image now blacked out! References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F0892 xch-cpc-02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"X2G2d.0.Xx3.yjKAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17388 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scudder, Henry J wrote: > > Jed > I just downloaded the medium resolution image. It has very > little contrast, but if I turn my office lights off, I can see the > image. Not very impressive, but more or less a face. > Hank I dunno, Hank. It looks considerably less like a face to me. See: http://www.artbell.com/space3.html If this is the same area of Mars, t'aint no face. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 15:56:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00360; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:52:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:52:05 -0700 From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:47:45 GMT Message-ID: <352c5417.6766399 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> In-Reply-To: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rG8jY2.0.V5.JoLAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:43 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: >In article <6g8pm5$q2t$1 agate.berkeley.edu>, baez@phys.psu.edu says... >>Is anyone here familiar with the recent observations of the Seyfert >>galaxy IRAS 18325-5926 which could be interpreted as indicating a >>massive black hole binary system that would merge on or before April >>31st? >>Apparently in December 1997 researchers observed X-ray emissions with >>a period of 11 hours, significantly shorter than those seen previously >>in March 1997, and this February they saw a periodicity of 7.8 hours. >>They regard it as a priori "very unlikely" to stumble like this upon >>in-spiralling black holes right before they collide, but they raise >>the possibility because it would be very interesting if true. >Geoffrey Burbidge, in "The Universe at large, key issues in astronomy and >cosmology" points out that despite numerous attempts to prove incorrect the >associations discovered and first reported by Halton Arp, of quasars >apparently being associated with nearby galaxies, that the statistics >continues to point toward associations. Numerous papers are cited in that >text. Ross, is this Burbidge reference a book or a journal article or what? Arp believes that mass increases with time (as do I) and that it happens in various quantised steps. I have calculated a detailed list of the redshift quanta expected by the harmonics theory and later discovered that W G Tifft had already (in 1978) observed a set of quanta that matched my list extremely closely (at the p~=10^-18 level). In its most general form my equation is (1+z)^h=n where z is the redshift quantum and h is one of my powerful harmonic numbers (these are numbers with very many ways of being factorised). The value n is also a harmonic number, but is mostly 2 for small scales in the universe. All the galaxy redshift quanta are related to n=2 but the quasar redshift quanta fit n=12. Some quanta that I predict based on (1+z)^h=2 are: h z zc (km/s) .... (many larger quanta omitted) 1440 .000481352 144.306 2880 .000240676 72.1529 * (* items are stronger) 5760 .000120338 36.0764 8640 .0000802253 24.0510 11520 .0000601690 18.0382 17280 .0000401126 12.0255 23040 .0000300845 9.01911 34560 .0000200563 6.01274 * 51840 .0000133709 4.00849 69120 .0000100281 3.00637 * Tifft and Arp have reported all of these quanta (except maybe 4 km/s). The 72 km/s and 6 and 3 km/s values that I predict as stronger are also reported more commonly. Tifft has reported galaxies changing redshift by amounts of 6 and 3 km/s over a 22 year period between surveys. This is real proof that mass and frequency do change with time because it has actually been observed to happen. With (1+z)^12=12 we find (1+z)=1.230^x where x is any integer. This pattern of quasars at ratios of 1.23 in (1+z) has been reported by Arp. I think that the key thing of interest to this group is that mass of particles is not an absolute. It depends on the prevailing energy density conditions which vary over astronomical time periods. However these conditions can also be altered in the laboratory by extreme energy concentrations as in accelerators or sonofusion and suchlike devices. I predict that if a redshift change occurs in the astronomical object that you mentioned that it will fit the equation that I have listed here for some strong harmonic (all listed in my web pages). -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 16:06:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28371; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:57:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:55:35 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Antigravity] Cydonia Image (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"UuK4D2.0.Dx6.GtLAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17390 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From Antigravity list (see below)... ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:22:18 -0700 From: "R. Dan Woolman" To: In Search Of , iso-politics , "blackvault mylist.net" , iso-religare , iso-antigravity Subject: [Antigravity] Cydonia Image We are "In Search Of . . ." answers together. Each posting must reflect personal respect, integrity, honesty, and full disclosure of information. ---------- Hi all, Before we all go criticizing NASA/JPL let's take a look at a 'Processed' image of Cydonia. Okay? A processed image is now up at: http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/events/mgs_index_nf.shtml ... and damn... it sure looks like a rock! Dano -- In Search of: http://www.in-search-of.com/index.shtml For questions e-mailto:Ask-Dr.Dan in-search-of.com or: http://www.in-search-of.com/ask-dr.dan.shtml ---------- TO LEAVE THE LIST, send a message to: majordomo primenet.com with the one line message of: unsubscribe antigravity From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 16:39:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05485; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804061616_MC2-391F-B2DB compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:53:02 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Cydonia image now blacked out! Resent-Message-ID: <"dVi87.0.OL1.tMMAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17392 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed wrote: >I just tuned into that web page. The three images (low, med and hi res) are >all uniformly blacked out. There are no details at all. Larry: I hope you got >a hi-res copy, because the original data is gone now. > >This message is emphatically *not* an April Fool joke. I begin to believe in >conspiracy theories. > >If anyone else tunes in and finds the images intact, I would appreciate a >copy. > >- Jed The raw images lack contrast. I copied the high res image and pulled it up in Photoshop, and tweaked the RGB levels curves until I could see the image. It's all there in detail, and to me is clearly a natural landform. Now the processed images are out, and are very close to what I got from Photoshop. I also compared the new image to the older image, and using selection outlines, I was able to selectively darken areas of the new image after the manner of the old, to see where the shadows and high points conspired in the old images to make it look so much like a face. One Carlotto and the others they got right: there is a node of some sort in the area of shadow that became the right eye (on our left looking at the image), and the node makes it look like an eyeball. The 'teeth' aren't, and the whole thing is just a worn down mesa or thrust-block or whatever - you know what I mean if you actually know your geology. Too bad, I really wanted it to be artificial. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:06:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11236; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980406231914.20719.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:19:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Anton Rager Subject: Re: [Antigravity] Cydonia Image (fwd) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"ADLAH.0.Ol2.xnMAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17394 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello All, Took a close look at both images on ArtBell and NASA. Couple points: 1 - the camera angle seems to be at a much different angle from the original Viking photos. Picture seems to be taken at about a 45-50deg angle to the structure instead of the 80-85deg angle from the Viking photos. 2 - it's still a really unusual looking 'structure'. The upper portion doesn't look very natural to me. Doesn't look like a face either [from this angle], but there seems to be some symetry in the upper regions. What sort of volcano/meteor would cause this? 3 - Richard Hoagland hasn't had enough time to run his massive filtering stuff on it yet ;) No telling what he will see in this picture [I'm reminded of the Pathfinder mission.....] > Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:22:18 -0700 > From: "R. Dan Woolman" > To: In Search Of , > iso-politics , > "blackvault mylist.net" , > iso-religare , > iso-antigravity > Subject: [Antigravity] Cydonia Image > > http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/events/mgs_index_nf.shtml > > ... and damn... it sure looks like a rock! > > Dano > -- All for now, == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:05:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11829; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:59:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:59:30 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980406200107.0066a5e0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:01:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Cydonia image now blacked out! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"vicXU1.0.iu2.XnMAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17395 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jed wrote: > >>I just tuned into that web page. The three images (low, med and hi res) are >>all uniformly blacked out. There are no details at all. Larry: I hope you got >>a hi-res copy, because the original data is gone now. >> >>This message is emphatically *not* an April Fool joke. I begin to believe in >>conspiracy theories. >> >>If anyone else tunes in and finds the images intact, I would appreciate a >>copy. >> >>- Jed > Jeez, just wait a few minutes. You and a million others are all hitting on that image right now... Smoke must be coming out of that poor server. :^) Anyway, I'm looking at it now. Perhaps one of you kind souls can clip the area in question to match the artbell photo, say. Cause all I see are rocks... I'm looking at the contrast TIF image. I'm pretty sure I'm looking at the right spot, but it hardly seems to match the original. What was done to the images to get the detail seen on the originals? Its going to be imaged again, perhaps these will be more revealing? KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:06:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10970; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:50:59 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: GSM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8zaQc1.0.8h2.9nMAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17393 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., Anyone know the GSM communications protocols? J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:05:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12073; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:00:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:00:04 -0700 Message-ID: <001401bd61b7$ecb7a650$cb4addcf craig> Reply-To: "Craig Haynie" From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: Cydonia image now blacked out! Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:58:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"GJiWl3.0.Yy2.2oMAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17396 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I also compared the new image to the older image, and using selection >outlines, I was able to selectively darken areas of the new image after the >manner of the old, to see where the shadows and high points conspired in >the old images to make it look so much like a face. One Carlotto and the >others they got right: there is a node of some sort in the area of shadow >that became the right eye (on our left looking at the image), and the node >makes it look like an eyeball. The 'teeth' aren't, and the whole thing is >just a worn down mesa or thrust-block or whatever - you know what I mean if >you actually know your geology. > >Too bad, I really wanted it to be artificial. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI I agree. I looked at this image pretty thoroughly about 10 years ago, and I can see all of the features from the original. MSNBC has the image that NASA released to the press, and the image is reversed from the original, so for reference, the face's right side (our left side) is highlighted in the old image and is STILL the side from whence the newer image is taken, though the lighting is now morning light and is coming from the SouthEast, which is the lower right corner of the new image. This alone makes the face look a bit weird, as faces usually do when they're lit from below, so this is the main reason the new face's right side (our left side), looks so different than it did originally. I am impressed with the amount of detail that Carlotto did bring out from the old. He was able to accurately detect the ridges at the top of the mesa, and along the sides. He did accurately bring out those rocks that appear to have fallen from the nose and lie along the cheeckbone. And, as mentioned, the eyeball does appear to be there. What is different is the debris on the bottom right corner of the picture. I did not expect so much garbage there, and I can't see the image of the face's left eye (our right). Craig From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:05:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14499; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:03:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:03:02 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000c01bd61b8$288dcba0$228cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:00:14 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"mYxra1.0.QY3.qqMAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17397 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Ray Tomes To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, April 06, 1998 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's >On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:43 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: > >>In article <6g8pm5$q2t$1 agate.berkeley.edu>, baez@phys.psu.edu says... >>>Is anyone here familiar with the recent observations of the Seyfert >>>galaxy IRAS 18325-5926 which could be interpreted as indicating a >>>massive black hole binary system that would merge on or before April >>>31st? > Is April 31st a Friday or Saturday? :-) FJS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:24:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00360; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:52:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:52:05 -0700 From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:47:45 GMT Message-ID: <352c5417.6766399 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> In-Reply-To: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rG8jY2.0.V5.JoLAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17389 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:43 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: >In article <6g8pm5$q2t$1 agate.berkeley.edu>, baez@phys.psu.edu says... >>Is anyone here familiar with the recent observations of the Seyfert >>galaxy IRAS 18325-5926 which could be interpreted as indicating a >>massive black hole binary system that would merge on or before April >>31st? >>Apparently in December 1997 researchers observed X-ray emissions with >>a period of 11 hours, significantly shorter than those seen previously >>in March 1997, and this February they saw a periodicity of 7.8 hours. >>They regard it as a priori "very unlikely" to stumble like this upon >>in-spiralling black holes right before they collide, but they raise >>the possibility because it would be very interesting if true. >Geoffrey Burbidge, in "The Universe at large, key issues in astronomy and >cosmology" points out that despite numerous attempts to prove incorrect the >associations discovered and first reported by Halton Arp, of quasars >apparently being associated with nearby galaxies, that the statistics >continues to point toward associations. Numerous papers are cited in that >text. Ross, is this Burbidge reference a book or a journal article or what? Arp believes that mass increases with time (as do I) and that it happens in various quantised steps. I have calculated a detailed list of the redshift quanta expected by the harmonics theory and later discovered that W G Tifft had already (in 1978) observed a set of quanta that matched my list extremely closely (at the p~=10^-18 level). In its most general form my equation is (1+z)^h=n where z is the redshift quantum and h is one of my powerful harmonic numbers (these are numbers with very many ways of being factorised). The value n is also a harmonic number, but is mostly 2 for small scales in the universe. All the galaxy redshift quanta are related to n=2 but the quasar redshift quanta fit n=12. Some quanta that I predict based on (1+z)^h=2 are: h z zc (km/s) .... (many larger quanta omitted) 1440 .000481352 144.306 2880 .000240676 72.1529 * (* items are stronger) 5760 .000120338 36.0764 8640 .0000802253 24.0510 11520 .0000601690 18.0382 17280 .0000401126 12.0255 23040 .0000300845 9.01911 34560 .0000200563 6.01274 * 51840 .0000133709 4.00849 69120 .0000100281 3.00637 * Tifft and Arp have reported all of these quanta (except maybe 4 km/s). The 72 km/s and 6 and 3 km/s values that I predict as stronger are also reported more commonly. Tifft has reported galaxies changing redshift by amounts of 6 and 3 km/s over a 22 year period between surveys. This is real proof that mass and frequency do change with time because it has actually been observed to happen. With (1+z)^12=12 we find (1+z)=1.230^x where x is any integer. This pattern of quasars at ratios of 1.23 in (1+z) has been reported by Arp. I think that the key thing of interest to this group is that mass of particles is not an absolute. It depends on the prevailing energy density conditions which vary over astronomical time periods. However these conditions can also be altered in the laboratory by extreme energy concentrations as in accelerators or sonofusion and suchlike devices. I predict that if a redshift change occurs in the astronomical object that you mentioned that it will fit the equation that I have listed here for some strong harmonic (all listed in my web pages). -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:30:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21281; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:24:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:24:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:24:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199804070024.RAA09213 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Resent-Message-ID: <"LglCQ3.0.CC5.J9NAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17398 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 14:37:43 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: > >>Geoffrey Burbidge, in "The Universe at large, key issues in astronomy and >>cosmology" points out that despite numerous attempts to prove incorrect the >>associations discovered and first reported by Halton Arp, of quasars >>apparently being associated with nearby galaxies, that the statistics >>continues to point toward associations. Numerous papers are cited in that >>text. > >Ross, is this Burbidge reference a book or a journal article or what? It is a book from a symposium. Basically, the book theme was to list the key issues based on the opinions of a dozen or so leading astro physicists like Burbidge, G; Burbidge E.M., Longair, Lynden-Bell, Novikov, Osterbrock, Pagel, Rees, Reeves, Sandage, Sunyaev. Ok, there are the authors. A symposium was held but basically to present the papers for the book as the final goal. They have really good Q&A sessions. Cambridge press. >Arp believes that mass increases with time (as do I) and that it happens >in various quantised steps. As you know, I think that our interpretation of mass is presently incorrect. We think in terms of some "property" rather than "some stuff". To me it is clear that mass is a measure of how much aether is associated with a standing wave. Now, it may be that the amount of aether associated with standing waves changes with time, that I wouldn't challenge at this point. Thus, the "rest mass" associated with a given kind of "particle" might change with time. All I know, is that mass, is a measure of how much aether is associated with the solitonic density amplification of the ocean of aether that soliton is in. So when mass "disappears", what really happened is that it was shot out at the sound speed of the fluid and caused the soliton to accelerate through the ocean. (ie, precess faster through spacetime's nodal topology). >In its most general form my equation is (1+z)^h=n where z is the >redshift quantum and h is one of my powerful harmonic numbers (these are >numbers with very many ways of being factorised). The value n is also a >harmonic number, but is mostly 2 for small scales in the universe. All >the galaxy redshift quanta are related to n=2 but the quasar redshift >quanta fit n=12. Have you tried to fit to the golden ratio, 1.618 and 0.618? >Tifft has reported galaxies changing redshift by amounts of 6 and 3 km/s >over a 22 year period between surveys. This is real proof that mass and >frequency do change with time because it has actually been observed to >happen. Sounds more like noise and observational technique to me without knowing that the observations were made with the identical equipment. That is a huge change over that short a period. Multiply that by 12 billion years over 22 years and you are going to have a radical red shift I would find hard to swallow. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:47:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25602; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:43:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:43:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:43:28 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804070043.RAA01832 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Cavitation College Update #2 Resent-Message-ID: <"cwotK.0.yF6.tQNAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17399 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Cavitation College is a free educational service of the Huffman Technology Company, a Seattle, Washington USA manufacturer of fine cavitators. The Cavitation College is an Internet virtual resource tool for the cavitation research community, the cavitation industry, and the general public. Visit the Huffman Technology Website by pointing your browser to: http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Update #2 - April 5, 1998 Fellow Bubbleheads, Well, there's a little something for everyone in this update. I'm starting to get the hang of this webpage thing, and construction of the Cavitation College is coming right along at a much better pace. I think that I can safely say that it is currently the most comprehensive treatment of the subject available on the web. The following is a list of new features. I'm still adding large chunks of material at a time, so there is too much to editorialize on or even list. Just check it out - there's big fun in there, and remember to hit the page reload button if your cache is large to get the latest versions of the pages. -Knuke Michael T. Huffman 1825 Nagle Place #210 Seattle, WA 98122 (206)325-2461 knuke aa.net http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:53:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26159; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:47:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:47:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3529790A.3332 LCIA.COM> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:53:30 -0400 From: B25B LCIA.COM (RON BRENNEN) Reply-To: B25B LCIA.COM X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bismuth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"q-0bg2.0.QO6.AUNAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17401 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi everybody, I need bismuth for an experiment. Can anyone tell me where I can buy a pound? Thanks. Ron Brennen From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 17:57:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22856; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:46:52 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804070046.RAA12527 slave2.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: D2O sonoluminescence question Resent-Message-ID: <"DywMC1.0.za5.fVNAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17400 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott L. wrote: >I haven't observed sonoluminesce in D2O, only in H2O, and then only barely. > But I have operated an ultrasonic xducer immersed in D2O making intense >cavitation for extended periods of time. Nothing unusual (i.e. different >from H2O) happened. Hi Scott, This is the most common misunderstanding regarding the ultrasonic cavitation technologies. People see a bunch of fine steam coming out of a bowl of water, and they think that they are cavitating the water. They are not. Submerging a transducer in water will simply trigger "in situ vaccuum boiling", but does not, in and of itself, cavitate the water. You have to collapse the bubbles, which requires very precise pressurization of the cell. Too much pressure, and you inhibit the vacuum boiling, too little, and you don't get adequate bubble collapse. It's still not an easy thing to get right, but some labs are doing it. I've got most of the equipment gathered to do these experiments myself, and plan to try this. >Have you asked Seth Putterman, leading sonoluminescence researcher? Have you read his latest patent yet? It'll rock your world if it's true.-Knuke Michael T. Huffman 1825 Nagle Place #210 Seattle, WA 98122 (206)325-2461 knuke aa.net http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 19:06:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11468; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:01:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:01:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:01:37 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804070201.TAA04354 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Messages disappear Resent-Message-ID: <"Ei8RV.0.1p2.7aOAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17402 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: And Jed Wrote (sorry no red letters yet): >Messages I have sent over the last two weeks vanished without a trace. >They did not bounce. It must be the Bermuda Triangle! Or the Trilateral >Commission. Or El Nino . . . Jed, I remember a few messages from you, but you are right, it did seem unusually quiet of late. If you were responding to a message from either rmforall or Fred Sparber, then you probably did the same thing I did recently, which was to reply _directly_ or privately to them by mistake. They have their return addresses "confuggered funny" (old UNIX term I think). You have to address replies to those two's messages manually to the Vortex List. The price of freedom is being a lert. Your favorite lert, -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 19:17:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09402; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:06:29 -0700 (PDT) From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 02:00:19 GMT Message-ID: <353487ff.18941368 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <199804070024.RAA09213 Au.oro.net> In-Reply-To: <199804070024.RAA09213 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"rDU2W2.0.hI2.UeOAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17403 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross, thanks for the further details on Burbidge etc. On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:24:21 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: >As you know, I think that our interpretation of mass is presently incorrect. >We think in terms of some "property" rather than "some stuff". To me it is >clear that mass is a measure of how much aether is associated with a >standing wave. I think it is how much aether is NOT associated with the wave (i.e. the amount or rarefaction) :-) I think that this applies regardless of whether the aether is tensile or fluid. A higher density region cannot be sustained against the pressure of that region. A low density region can be sustained by rotational and centrifugal forces. I wrote: >>In its most general form my equation is (1+z)^h=n where z is the >>redshift quantum and h is one of my powerful harmonic numbers (these are >>numbers with very many ways of being factorised). The value n is also a >>harmonic number, but is mostly 2 for small scales in the universe. All >>the galaxy redshift quanta are related to n=2 but the quasar redshift >>quanta fit n=12. >Have you tried to fit to the golden ratio, 1.618 and 0.618? It won't fit. I don't see any evidence that the golden ratio is relevant in cosmology, physics or anywhere except in plants (not planets). >>Tifft has reported galaxies changing redshift by amounts of 6 and 3 km/s >>over a 22 year period between surveys. This is real proof that mass and >>frequency do change with time because it has actually been observed to >>happen. >Sounds more like noise and observational technique to me without knowing >that the observations were made with the identical equipment. That is a >huge change over that short a period. Multiply that by 12 billion years >over 22 years and you are going to have a radical red shift I would find >hard to swallow. Most galaxies did not change at all over the 22 years, so you cannot just multiply up. However even allowing for this the rate of change is quite a bit higher than it should be (that is the only odd thing about the result to me). It is definitely not noise or observational technique. They have shown that independent surveys agree to better than 0.8 km/s and the distribution of redshift changes over 22 years has a major peak at 0 (as expected) and two minor peaks at 3 and 6 km/s change. The sharpness of the peaks shows that the measurements really are accurate to 0.8 km/s. These are facts. The fact that most scientists don't know about them or don't accept them has nothing to do with the solidity of the evidence. It has everything to do with their inability to assimilate these facts into their pre-existing belief system. * Redshifts are quantised * Frequencies of matter change with TIME not light wavelengths with distance. -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 20:10:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22872; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <35299788.EF1 math.ucla.edu> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:03:36 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new/old mars face comparison References: <001401bd61b7$ecb7a650$cb4addcf craig> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"d6Uj72.0.Db5._VPAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17404 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: for a side by side shot, check out: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/marsface/ -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 20:34:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03767; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:32:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:32:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3529A00D.14EF loc1.tandem.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:39:57 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: more from Jed (patents) References: <3.0.5.32.19980402220338.008f0d20 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FR-IQ3.0.fw._uPAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17405 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little forwarded a message from Jed. He wrote: > > > Actually I do not know any software developers who favor software patents. I > do not think they would bother applying for them. Software patents are now becoming much more important, especially at large software companies where the number of software patent applications has been skyrocketing. They are becoming very important for defensive purposes. But Jed is right that most programmers would rather write software than worry about patents. And that is probably as it should be. > (snip interesting info on inventor kits and the Wright brothers)> > > I think a Free Energy inventor could make billions of dollars by getting a > patent after the fact. I advise inventors to apply for a patent even though it > will be automatically rejected. (The rules bar perceptual motion machine > patent applications, and cold fusion patents are summarily rejected by > custom.) It is useless to fight the government or to spend money in the patent > application process. Here I disagree. A good patent lawyer can get a patent on nearly anything. If the application is written properly, it does not have to scream out "perpetual motion." All that is required is a good description of the apparatus, that the apparatus is unique and nonobvious, and that it have some use. You could take the CETI device and claim that it is a way to collect crud off of the beads. Or the BLP device and say that you could fry eggs on top of it. Nowhere does the application have to claim over unity. As long as the key idea is embodied inside a patentable device, the claims can be crafted to protect that idea. Of course you will always get a rejection the first time. That is the way the game is played. You have to argue with the examiner and make some concessions in the claims before it will be issued. Even for patents that are clearly allowable and in non-controversial fields, we have sometimes had to go many rounds with the examiner. The patent is actually more valuable if it is issued after a few rejections. It shows the examiner was careful, and the file history later helps to more clearly define the terms and limitations of the patent. It is harder for a private inventor because he may not have the money to hire a good attorney or the patience to wait out the patent process. But I do think that the inventors need to be more worried about making a useful invention than about getting the patent. Very few people get rich by getting a patent and then finding someone else to develop the idea and put it into production; but many get rich by building a company that sells a product, even if they do not obtain any fundamental patents on the technology involved. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 21:07:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03609; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3529B26A.3F94 macsrule.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:58:19 -0700 From: "Mark A. Collins" Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new/old mars face comparison References: <001401bd61b7$ecb7a650$cb4addcf craig> <35299788.EF1@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RilKV2.0.Gu.YIQAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17406 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is rediculous! Those are even of the same site/scale! The face on the left is a much greater zoom, with a distinct pattern of rocks & dust around it. The picture on the right is nothing! The only way it could be of the same area is if it is a 100x lower zoom power than the other one... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 21:12:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04600; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3529B366.EB macsrule.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:02:30 -0700 From: "Mark A. Collins" Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: more from Jed (patents) References: <3.0.5.32.19980402220338.008f0d20 mail.eden.com> <3529A00D.14EF@loc1.tandem.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"e3ZnZ.0.o71.KMQAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17407 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I've personally copywrited a program, and my attourney said that it's mainly a formality. It is very tough to patent/copyright software (design, code, whatever.) The best precaution you have in terms of software protection is to have a complete listing of the code, design, etc. of the software, and have it court registered as you possessing this at a specified date. A good way to do that is to mail a hardcopy to yourself and keep it in a safe. Copyright and patents may or may not help, but if you can undoubtedly prove that you had the code/design first, you will usually win. Mark Anthony Collins "The MAC Man" themacman macsrule.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 21:56:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17870; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:54:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:54:25 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980406235443.0091a6e0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 23:54:43 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: D2O sonoluminescence question In-Reply-To: <199804070046.RAA12527 slave2.aa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"2dSXY2.0.3N4.06RAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17408 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 05:46 PM 4/6/98 -0700, Michael T Huffman wrote: > This is the most common misunderstanding regarding the ultrasonic >cavitation technologies. People see a bunch of fine steam coming out of a >bowl of water, and they think that they are cavitating the water. They are >not. Submerging a transducer in water will simply trigger "in situ vaccuum >boiling", but does not, in and of itself, cavitate the water. Hi Mike, I'm not sure what you're talking about here but my apparatus (a piezo xducer with an amplitude-increasing horn) does produce cavitation. This is confirmed by the relatively severe damage inflicted upon metal parts in the vicinity of the horn's tip and the tip itself (which is made of Ti). In fact, my apparatus is very similar to that prescribed by the ASTM procedure for measuring the resistance of materials to cavitation damage. >>Have you asked Seth Putterman, leading sonoluminescence researcher? > >Have you read his latest patent yet? It'll rock your world if it's true.- Could you post the patent number please? Thanks Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 22:07:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14606; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:02:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199804070502.WAA11959 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Resent-Message-ID: <"QPxTj1.0.7a3.3FRAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17410 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >I think that the key thing of interest to this group is that mass of >particles is not an absolute. It depends on the prevailing energy >density conditions which vary over astronomical time periods. However >these conditions can also be altered in the laboratory by extreme energy >concentrations as in accelerators or sonofusion and suchlike devices. > I am not satisfied that this is the case. I have another means of red shifting photons via aether emission from galaxy BH cores if they breach confinement. This is the same thing as during the big bang in my model, and it is demanded that BH's that have the inflow of aether interupted, must explode outward because they don't have a singularity pulling everything in, and instead, they are being rammed by an inflow of aether flowing in. That core condenses, as I showed in the golden ratio in the other post. The gist is, if the ideas I am working on are correct, then fusion, and indeed all exothermy, are very easily understood. They are just a continuation of the boiling of the big bang! But now, because the remaining densifications are trapped in the acoustic nodes (aka spacetime, and fields), the only way they can boil away is via fusion and other chemical reactions. This means that the ocean of aether is in essence, a saturated vapor. Therefore, the pressure is NOT presently changing, and will not change until the majority of fusing stars are depleted. This is not going to occur for many tens of billions of years. In any case, the constant pressure conditions of a saturated vapor tend to lean toward a constant particle mass. As the universe expands, the velocity of aether flow out of galaxies may lead to a slow decline in the ambient pressure intermediate to galaxies and galaxy clusters, and thus to a slow change in the particle masses in some region as compared to another. But this is another story, and probably a fraction of a fraction. As for the changes, I still want to know why you think they mean anything as far as particles masses are concerned since ALL galaxies at a given red shift are NOT changing. But I do want to learn more about their results ;-) Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 22:08:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14594; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:02:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199804070502.WAA11955 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Resent-Message-ID: <"7wya71.0.yZ3.1FRAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17409 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Ross, thanks for the further details on Burbidge etc. > >On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:24:21 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: >>As you know, I think that our interpretation of mass is presently incorrect. >>We think in terms of some "property" rather than "some stuff". To me it is >>clear that mass is a measure of how much aether is associated with a >>standing wave. > >I think it is how much aether is NOT associated with the wave (i.e. the >amount or rarefaction) :-) 40 years from now, we will likely still have these identical opinions. Maybe that says something about the problem? I think that this applies regardless of >whether the aether is tensile or fluid. A higher density region cannot >be sustained against the pressure of that region. A low density region >can be sustained by rotational and centrifugal forces. The minute you say that something is sustained by a "force", you are just saying that something is happening I cannot explain, ie something is accelerating, and I am thus going to blame it on a force. That is the nature of saying that something reaches out, grabs onto something else **across a void** and pulls. With fluid, the fluid rams into other components of the same fluid, action begets action, and it is all simple and clear. As for high pressure vortices, we know about lots of versions of them. The Great Red Spot is a high pressure cyclone. It is about 500 years old, at least by now. Further, you do not yet define the nature of "spacetime" in your tensile aether;-) In mine, it is a structure of wave energy. So, I have wave energy to drive my oscillations and sustain their coherency. Wave convergence, reflection, divergence. But I have been studying the nature of the change in topology from spacetime (a quadrature structure of acoustic nodes, into "particle", a spherical structure of concentric standing wave energy. Apparently, as I work on the topology, the orthogonal phases are knotting up and reflecting. The gist is, the velocity of propogation of wave energy through the interior region of a particle behaves in an interesting way as you transition from spacetime into the "field" topology. The quadrature structure becomes concentric spherical shells, and so it takes less time for waves to transit even though their velocity is slower. In spacetime, the waves are always moving in an awkward, slow, side to side motion from node to node. This allows solitons to precess through spacetime in any direction, a good thing. but it slows down the process and makes all wave communication effectively transverse. I think Paul and Barry are correct in that the velocity of wave front propogation is sqrt 3 * c, and not c itself. I have been laying out the paths of wave motion for a moving electron and this seems to be necessary. > >I wrote: >>>In its most general form my equation is (1+z)^h=n where z is the >>>redshift quantum and h is one of my powerful harmonic numbers (these are >>>numbers with very many ways of being factorised). The value n is also a >>>harmonic number, but is mostly 2 for small scales in the universe. All >>>the galaxy redshift quanta are related to n=2 but the quasar redshift >>>quanta fit n=12. > >>Have you tried to fit to the golden ratio, 1.618 and 0.618? > >It won't fit. I don't see any evidence that the golden ratio is >relevant in cosmology, physics or anywhere except in plants (not >planets). I am finding it in spacetime, and in particle topology. Consider spherical vortices for electrons. Then, you get a cubic for the next larger waveform, and a fourth power for the energy density amplification. Then, 0.511 MeV * 2^7 = 65.408 Mass muon = 105.8 (old reference, Feynman's QED) the ratio of those results is 105.8/65.408 = 1.6175 ~= 1.618034 That is a ratio of 0.9997. Not too bad! Anyway, that is the condensation I have been talking about. I can't find my particle physics book with a better value for muon mass right now but will look later. > >>>Tifft has reported galaxies changing redshift by amounts of 6 and 3 km/s >>>over a 22 year period between surveys. This is real proof that mass and >>>frequency do change with time because it has actually been observed to >>>happen. > > >Most galaxies did not change at all over the 22 years, so you cannot >just multiply up. However even allowing for this the rate of change is >quite a bit higher than it should be (that is the only odd thing about >the result to me). It is definitely not noise or observational >technique. They have shown that independent surveys agree to better >than 0.8 km/s and the distribution of redshift changes over 22 years has >a major peak at 0 (as expected) and two minor peaks at 3 and 6 km/s >change. The sharpness of the peaks shows that the measurements really >are accurate to 0.8 km/s. OK, this is great. I accept it now that I know the results have been cross correlated, and verified via multiple techniques, and especially, due to the majority of galaxies not changing. Now, let's get into the nitty gritty because what you just opened was a heaping pile of worms aimed right at vindicating Arp. first question; you mention a major peak at zero, fine. Then, 3 and 6 km/s. Are these an increase in the red shift or a decrease in the red shift, or both (ie two peaks on either side of zero?) ie, is the change one sided or not? I have been looking for evidence of red shift changes due to aether emission from quasars (white holes), running "dry" so to speak. But these things I think ought to blue shift with time as the aether emission from the boiling BH core breach bleeds down and cannot red shift the light as intensely. Second, have they performed this on quasars? And if so, do they tend to have greater changes than "normal" galaxies? >* Redshifts are quantised > >* Frequencies of matter change with TIME not light wavelengths with >distance. But if only a small number of galaxies, at all red shifts are changing, then you cannot say this because if this is so, they all ought to change by the same amount!!!!!!!!????????????// si yes no? Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 22:52:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25912; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:47:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:47:52 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980407054722.006b4fe4 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 01:47:22 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: new/old mars face comparison Resent-Message-ID: <"nNMCA3.0.mK6.6uRAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17411 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I'm glad we finally have a new picture of the alleged Face on Mars. As I said months ago when this issue was last discussed on vortex, we need better pictures to resolve the face, and their aquisition should have top priority. As it turns out, we needed only a single picture: the face isn't. End of story. Good job, NASA, for listening to the public's interest regarding this unresolved question and giving the Face a high priority so that it was imaged ahead of schedule. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 6 23:05:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28063; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:02:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:02:48 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804070602.BAA13600 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: new/old mars face comparison In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980407054722.006b4fe4 atlantic.net> from Kurt Johmann at "Apr 7, 98 01:47:22 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 01:02:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wqXZN3.0.Ks6.76SAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17412 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kurt Johmann wrote: > As I said months ago when this issue was last discussed on vortex, we > need better pictures to resolve the face, and their aquisition should > have top priority. > > As it turns out, we needed only a single picture: the face isn't. > > End of story. How naive. :-) Even as we speak, number crunching algorithms are being run and discarded until one happens to "fit" the image data -- thus "proving" intelligent artifacts. Just as random shadows often cause apparent "unnatural" images, so to do random mathematical algorithms produce unlikely patterns out of the "noise." The spoof is out there. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 04:46:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21596; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:39:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:39:43 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980407113851.006bed28 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 07:38:51 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Some Final Thoughts about the Face Resent-Message-ID: <"qijew2.0.MH5.z1XAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17413 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: One thing that was rarely discussed in the Face literature, was the question as to why a large face that can't be seen from the ground would be built. IOW, why create something that can't be seen by the creators? This consideration tends to rule out the possibility that the monument was made by some native civilization. After all, are there any large face monuments on Earth that are only visible from the air? No. The closest thing that comes to mind are the Nazac (sp?) line figures in Peru, but even though these outlined figures can't be seen visually from the ground, they can be seen mentally by someone who walks the outline and translates that walk into a mental image. If the face monument were real, then one might tend to conclude that the intended viewers were above the ground: either space gods (like the beings who fly around in UFOs) or anyone on planet Earth. If the intended viewers were space gods, then it is hard to see why the image presented to those gods would be someone's face. In fact, it sounds like a hostile gesture (staring at the gods), instead of some act of worship. Thus, IMO, it seems more likely that the intended viewer would be the inhabitants of Earth. Now, in this case there are three possible builders of the face monument: 1) Martian natives (assuming for the moment that they existed) 2) space gods (non-human and non-martian) 3) Humans (who colonized Mars in the remote past during some long-lost technical civilization) Case 1) can be ruled out, because the Martians can't know the Earth is inhabited without themselves first attaining a high technical civilization, in which case there is no reason to "communicate" by building a huge face. Case 2) is weak, IMO, because the space gods are already here (all the UFO reports: some are bogus, like Roswell, but many are real, IMO). Assuming the UFOs are real, then they could certainly fly to Mars and carve a giant face on a hill -- but why bother? At best I can imagine some kind of 2001 scenario: instead of a slab buried on the moon, the aliens carve a face on Mars. But since the aliens are already here, and apparently like to remain incognito, it is really hard to justify this. Case 3) is also weak, although not quite as weak as it would be if modern man were only 100,000 years old as currently alleged by establishment science. But as I was surprised to find out by recently reading the excellent book "The Hidden History of the Human Race" (Michael Cremo and Richard Thomas, 1994), the actual physical evidence is that anatomically modern man has been on this planet for many millions of years (I know how absurd this sounds, but read the book and you will understand). Anyway, with a much older human history, it becomes more possible that a high-technology civilization existed in the very remote past which sent a colony to Mars. However, even if this happened, why would the colonists build the face? The only possibility that comes to mind is that the Earth home was lost to the colony (as a result of a civilization-destroying meteor or comet impact), and the colony, faced with their own impending doom, left a face monument to attract the attention of some future human civilization. However, besides this scenario being quite a stretch, it would seem more likely that such a doomed colony would conserve its energy and equipment resources to lengthen its term of survival, and not waste them on something as fanciful as a giant face. conclusion: As it turns out, the face is false, so the question as to why it is there, and who made it, no longer applies. And as the above analysis shows, a giant face that is not visible from the ground is not a likely artifact from anyone: martian, human, or space god. With the face now false, sales of current Mars Face books should go flat-line. But I'd like to mention the book "The Case for the Face" (edited by Stan McDaniel and Monica Paxson, 1998), which I bought and read about a month ago. This book is now, obviously, obsolete, but I'd like to mention the fact that I found the article by our own Dr. Mitchell Swartz, "Mars as an Abode of Life" (pp 124-135), to be the single best and most informative article in the book (this is perhaps to be expected from a man who has an EE PhD from MIT and an MD from Harvard: wow, confronted with these very impressive credentials an ordinary PhD like myself is just a monkey swinging in a tree :-). However, now matter how good any of our minds are, we can all draw erroneous conclusions when the data we work with is either false or incomplete. The story of the Mars Face and its many advocates is a good example of erroneous conclusions resulting from incomplete data. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 07:02:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11730; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <3529D98B.5C3822FC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 07:45:15 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's References: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> <352c5417.6766399@kcbbs.gen.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="z" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="z" Resent-Message-ID: <"5VkCK1.0.6t2.J1ZAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17414 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ray Tomes wrote: * Redshifts are quantised * Frequencies of matter change with TIME not light wavelengths with distance. Hi Ray, I'm enjoying the exchange between you and Ross. I also like your web site, and maybe I could find the answer to my question if I explored it more thoroughly. Assuming the following is correct: If you know the Gravitational Potential, o* : o* = -GM/R^2 where G is the gravitational constant 6.67E-11, M is the mass of the "Star" and R is it's radius ... From this the change in local light speed c: c = c0(1 + o*/c^2) or since wavelength (lambda) equals c/f, f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), one may conclude that: Conservation of energy requires that photon frequency change with the change in gravitational potential energy (i.e. the further out of a gravitational well the photon rises, the more energy it loses as it fights against the field, hence red shift). This in turn depends on distance from the centre of gravity, and has nothing to do with the size of the object in question, only on its mass, and the change in distance to the centre of that mass. ... R in the formula is in fact the distance from the centre of the body, and has nothing to do with its radius. This further implies that the red shift [of sunlight] "seen" by Jupiter is greater than that seen by Earth. So here is my question: Since f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), and R is the distance to a celestial object, how does one distinguish between the red shift due to the mass and distance of the celestial object and the Doppler red shift due to the velocity at which the object is supposedly moving away from the Earth? Jack Smith P. S. Ray Tomes wrote: Arp believes that mass increases with time (as do I) and that it happens in various quantised steps. I have calculated a detailed list of the redshift quanta expected by the harmonics theory and later discovered that W G Tifft had already (in 1978) observed a set of quanta that matched my list extremely closely (at the p~=10^-18 level). In its most general form my equation is (1+z)^h=n where z is the redshift quantum and h is one of my powerful harmonic numbers (these are numbers with very many ways of being factorised). Hello again, Ray, This leads to another question: How does (1+z)^h=n relate to the gravitational red shift calculated above? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 07:23:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16355; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980407091219.00c81f6c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 09:12:19 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Little's RIFEX experiment misguided In-Reply-To: <199804061618_MC2-391F-7E69 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yKgC73.0.Q_3.aLZAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17415 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 16:14 4/6/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote a summary of our RIFEX study that was really very complimentary, especially considering the results we got. Thank you, Jed. He also said: >The trouble is . . . he did the wrong job. He was not able >to investigate isotope shifts, which are the only convincing evidence of >transmutations with the RIFEX system. It's true that isotopic shifts would constitute convincing evidence of transmutations...but so would the appearance of new elements in quantities much greater than any possible contamination could explain. Miley reported observing new elements on his reacted beads at levels greater than 10 times any contamination sources he could identify (Miley, Patterson "Nuclear Transmutations in Thin-Film Nickel Coatings Undergoing Electrolysis"). In hindsight, with the near-balance we observed between elements on the beads and identified contamination sources, isotopic measurements DO look awfully attractive. But that doesn't mean we did the wrong job. The fact is simply this: Our results did not match Miley's. If they had, XRF would have been a fine tool for the job. BTW, Miley (Gokul Narne, actually) did perform an isotopic ratio measurement/calculation on our Run 3 beads during the SIMS analysis discussed in the Epilog of our report. On the vast majority of elements, the ratios were normal. A few were slightly anomalous and another few were really anomalous (e.g. 32S/34S). We spent some time investigating these results, including consultations with SIMS experts at Charles Evans Associates, and came up with plausible explanations for most of the apparent anomalies (e.g. LiAl molecular inteference on the 34S channel). In other words, we found nothing in the SIMS isotopic ratio measurements to change our minds about the outcome of our RIFEX experiments. In the end, however, Miley correctly pointed out that we were wandering outside our field of expertise and that the SIMS isotopic ratios had been determined only with a "low-resolution scan". He suggested that we drop that section of the Epilog and we complied. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 07:27:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17291; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:16:53 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Some Final Thoughts about the Face Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804071019_MC2-3933-D192 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"tyZ1B2.0.4E4.BQZAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17416 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Kurt Johmann writes: One thing that was rarely discussed in the Face literature, was the question as to why a large face that can't be seen from the ground would be built. IOW, why create something that can't be seen by the creators? This consideration tends to rule out the possibility that the monument was made by some native civilization. After all, are there any large face monuments on Earth that are only visible from the air? No. Oh yes there are. There are many faces and figures in the U.S. Southwest. These are pre-Columbian artifacts. There are similar giant formations produced by advanced civilizations for no practical purpose. These range from animal shapes, to mazes, to abstract mathematical figures. A good example of the latter is the street layout of Washington, DC. It is beautiful from the air, but confusing from the ground. Interesting, but confusing. It was designed in 1791 by L'Enfant. There are no mountains or high hills around Washington from which you can observe the city layout. (The closest thing is the view from the top of the National Cathedral, a beautiful place.) The first manned hot air balloon flight was in 1783, so I doubt L'Enfant was thinking of the pleasure the view would give to future air travelers. The closest thing that comes to mind are the Nazac (sp?) line figures in Peru . . . Nazca. These are giant animal forms. . . . even though these outlined figures can't be seen visually from the ground, they can be seen mentally by someone who walks the outline and translates that walk into a mental image. Exactly. And that would be reason enough for any civilization to build such a structure. Especially an air or space born civilization. We cannot rule out the possibility that Mars once supported a native or extraterrestrial civilization, although it seems unlikely. However, now matter how good any of our minds are, we can all draw erroneous conclusions when the data we work with is either false or incomplete. The story of the Mars Face and its many advocates is a good example of erroneous conclusions resulting from incomplete data. A person who concludes that we now know there was never civilization on Mars is jumping to conclusions, based on false and incomplete data. We do not know. I have seen areas in the U.S. where 19th century towns and buildings stood, including a large factory complex in Atlanta destroyed during the Civil War. You can barely find an intact brick. There no way you could identify this as the site of civilization at the scale of the Mars photographs. You can barely tell when you stand on the ground 20 meters from the building foundations. These structures were intact 150 years ago. In 10,000 years, or 10 million, the damage would be immeasurably greater. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 08:00:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24023; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:44:07 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Some Final Thoughts about the Face Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804071046_MC2-3933-D3E5 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"aMM9m.0.5t5.ypZAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17417 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex [Sorry if this is a duplicate posting.] Kurt Johmann writes: One thing that was rarely discussed in the Face literature, was the question as to why a large face that can't be seen from the ground would be built. IOW, why create something that can't be seen by the creators? This consideration tends to rule out the possibility that the monument was made by some native civilization. After all, are there any large face monuments on Earth that are only visible from the air? No. Oh yes there are. There are many faces and figures in the U.S. Southwest. These are pre-Columbian artifacts. There are similar giant formations produced by advanced civilizations for no practical purpose. These range from animal shapes, to mazes, to abstract mathematical figures. A good example of the latter is the street layout of Washington, DC. It is beautiful from the air, but confusing from the ground. Interesting, but confusing. It was designed in 1791 by L'Enfant. There are no mountains or high hills around Washington from which you can observe the city layout. (The closest thing is the view from the top of the National Cathedral, a beautiful place.) The first manned hot air balloon flight was in 1783, so I doubt L'Enfant was thinking of the pleasure the view would give to future air travelers. The closest thing that comes to mind are the Nazac (sp?) line figures in Peru . . . Nazca. These are giant animal forms. . . . even though these outlined figures can't be seen visually from the ground, they can be seen mentally by someone who walks the outline and translates that walk into a mental image. Exactly. And that would be reason enough for any civilization to build such a structure. Especially an air or space born civilization. We cannot rule out the possibility that Mars once supported a native or extraterrestrial civilization, although it seems unlikely. However, now matter how good any of our minds are, we can all draw erroneous conclusions when the data we work with is either false or incomplete. The story of the Mars Face and its many advocates is a good example of erroneous conclusions resulting from incomplete data. A person who concludes that we now know there was never civilization on Mars is jumping to conclusions, based on false and incomplete data. We do not know. I have seen areas in the U.S. where 19th century towns and buildings stood, including a large factory complex in Atlanta destroyed during the Civil War. You can barely find an intact brick. There no way you could identify this as the site of civilization at the scale of the Mars photographs. You can barely tell when you stand on the ground 20 meters from the building foundations. These structures were intact 150 years ago. In 10,000 years, or 10 million, the damage would be immeasurably greater. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 09:49:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19996; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804071513.LAA24885 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Aspden Patent Granted for Cold Fusion Date: Tue, 7 Apr 98 11:18:04 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"HeFeg2.0.Gu4.dVbAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17418 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Just received from Dr. Harold Aspden: GRANT OF US PATENT 5,734,122: On March 31, 1998 a U.S. patent having relevance to cold fusion was granted to Dr. Harold Aspden of Southampton in England. Dr. Aspden has posted a copy of this patent on his Web site . The patent is a continuation-in-part of an application for a patent on the cold fusion theme filed at the U.S. Patent Office on February 16, 1990 with the benefit of the priority date of a U.K. Patent Application filed on April 15, 1989, within a month of the Utah announcement that began the cold fusion saga. The examining section of the US Patent Office which is charged with processing cold fusion inventions has obstructed attempts to secure patents in this field, but Dr. Aspden has struggled relentlessly in confronting such opposition. Even though three of Dr. Aspden's such patent applications in the US Patent Office, all linked to that initial application, have not weathered the storm, he still has kept a fourth alive and pending, and the struggle is ongoing. He tells the story of all this in his Web pages as "Cold Fusion: My Story: Parts I and II". Part II is a record of a blow-for-blow account of the struggle. The success now, in securing the grant of U.S. Patent 5,734,122 emerges because Dr. Aspden filed his application as a 'Thermoelectric Energy Conversion Apparatus' . The point of special interest is that Dr. Aspden included in the specification a very substantial Appendix concerning cold fusion. The overall message is clear. As with the Patterson invention, if you are lucky enough to have your U.S. patent application classified for examination by a group other than that specializing in rejecting cold fusion then you may secure patent grant! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 10:03:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21789; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352A43A0.3A4A1DDA crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:17:52 +0200 From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Little's RIFEX experiment misguided References: <3.0.1.32.19980407091219.00c81f6c mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_QfR3.0.KK5.BdbAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17419 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, We have access to an ICP-MS, so if you wish, give me some of your samples, and we will do an isotopic analysis. ICP-MS is much better than SIMS regarding intereferences between elements. If this is fine with you bring them at the conference in Vancouver. Jean-Paul Biberian From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 10:58:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04674; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <352A6633.CCD math.ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:45:23 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: burchard pobox.com Subject: Improved images of ``the face'' References: <1.5.4.32.19980407113851.006bed28 atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JEQ4O3.0.y81.UQcAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17420 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some much better enhancements of ``the (non) face'' have been released; check out http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/marsface/ -- Barry Merriman Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 11:39:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11587; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:22:15 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: RIFEX versus Miley Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804071423_MC2-393D-8900 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"SPlBu.0.qq2.h_cAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17421 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little wrote: It's true that isotopic shifts would constitute convincing evidence of transmutations...but so would the appearance of new elements in quantities much greater than any possible contamination could explain. Miley reported observing new elements on his reacted beads at levels greater than 10 times any contamination sources he could identify . . . Yes, but . . . he might have missed a source of contamination. As I pointed out -- and Little demonstrated -- the flowing electrolyte system has many nooks and crannies where contamination can hide. Furthermore, as I said, the amount of host metal available to transmute is smaller than in other cells. Miley's thin films are thinner than CETI's. Ohmori has as much transmuted iron as Miley has nickel. Without the isotope shifts Miley's results would not be convincing. Little says: "Our results did not match Miley's. If they had, XRF would have been a fine tool for the job." I do not think the XRF alone would have worked for Miley. People have questioned Miley's ability to identify isotopes. They say the isotope shift data itself may be suspect, leaving only the elements -- a weak reed. Rich Murray says Miley might have calibrated incorrectly, or mixed up single elements with compounds. I know little about EDX, EPMA and SIMS devices, but I have spoken with experts who say the standard techniques eliminate such errors. They say Murray does not know what he is talking about. I made the mistake of wading in too deep the other day when I asked Mizuno how the EDX converts atomic percentages to a quantitative analysis. He tried to explain the ZAF method, barraging me with references to D.M. Poole and P.M.Thomas, J. Inst. Metals, 90, 228 (1994). P. Duncumb and S.J.B. Reed, Proc. Seminar on "Quantitative Electron Micranalysis" (1968), and W.J.M. Slater,"A Manual of Quantitative Electron Probe Microanalysis", Structural Publications. Ltd, (1970). In his book, Mizuno pretends to be a neophyte when it comes to detecting low levels of neutrons and isotope shifts. Then in chapter 6 he casually mentions that he repaired the high voltage circuits and the power supply of a 20 year old EDX. I do not necessarily believe the textbooks, but it does appear the experts have given these issues a lot of thought, and I doubt that Rich Murray has found giant errors in 50-year-old textbook techniques. BTW, Miley (Gokul Narne, actually) did perform an isotopic ratio measurement/calculation on our Run 3 beads during the SIMS analysis discussed in the Epilog of our report. On the vast majority of elements, the ratios were normal. That's good but not sufficient. When I say the project should have focused on isotopes as well as elements, I had in mind rigorous, repeated, independently confirmed observations. One check of one run is not enough. I would not launch a RIFEX test unless I had first prepared: 1. At least two in-house spectrometers of different design, say SIMS and EDX. 2. Autoradiographs and gamma detectors. 3. The spectroanalysis should done on every set of beads and on all other cell components before and after the run. It might be done during the run sometimes, by interrupting the run and carefully removing one bead. 4. Independent, blind testing by other labs to confirm results. The blind tests should include unused and dud cathodes. Miley does not have independent testing as far as I know, which is a shame. He did have the autoradiograph performed independently. Obviously this would cost a great deal of money and a fantastic amount of effort -- even more than Scott Little expended. More than I could devote to it! It is a pity this research is so expensive but I see no point in trying to do it cheaply. You will not prove anything. A cold fusion experiment requires fanatical attention to detail and long preparation. Mizuno described his monumental six-month struggle to make a closed cell. He wrote: The reason I was obsessed with excluding contamination will become clear later, when I describe my efforts to substantiate the occurrence of a large scale nuclear reaction by detecting transmuted reaction products. To succeed in chemistry, you must pay meticulous attention to every detail at ever stage. It may seem like a nuisance, but it is impossible to do valid research without precise preparation. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 11:39:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26516; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:30:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:30:59 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000401bd6252$cd077420$498cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Improved images of ``the face'' Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:27:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"GewVa.0.yT6.W3dAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17422 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Barry Merriman To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: burchard pobox.com Date: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 11:50 AM Subject: Improved images of ``the face'' >Some much better enhancements of ``the (non) face'' have been released; >check out Good "shots", Barry. But is the "3" on there something that the "Class Of 2003" put there? :-) Regards, Frederick > >http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry/marsface/ > > > >-- >Barry Merriman >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 18:53:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23740; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352AD646.2116 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:43:34 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Some Final Thoughts about the Face References: <1.5.4.32.19980407113851.006bed28 atlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UX6631.0.qo5.3VjAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17423 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Kurt et al! To other Gnorts, I don't mean to un-vortex here, just responding to Kurts' well thought out post. Try the opposite; Mars developed intelligent life first. They achieved space travel and colonized earth, thus the full blown form of man from out of nowhere. Note: 1) man is the only warm blooded mammal on the planet who does not have a penile bone, even a vestigial bone, thus indicating we did not naturally evolve here 2) man, when placed in an environment protected from outside light, like in underground caves, will revert to a 25 hour day, a Mars day is about 25.1 hours as opposed to the 'natural' Earth day of 24 hours. The root civilization of Mars polluted their planet to such a degree that they HAD to colonize earth. The Martian race either went underground or became extinct due to pollution or war. Now, we are doing the same, trashing our environment (the premise for Lost in Space). The cool thing, IMHO, most people that I know think certain ancient continents, (3 that I won't mention the name of) sank......there are reports that the earth was once shrouded in a water jacket....when this jacket was caused to precipitate, the water produced filled in the valleys of the earth to create the oceans and seas at 'sea level'....thus these 'sunken continents' were flooded rather than destroyed by sinking. The Bimini underwater roads that lead down into the sea are one indication and there are various reports of no stars in the night sky before the flood, etc.... Way too out of place for vortex but interesting nonetheless. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 21:24:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01751; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:19:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:19:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407231931.009199a0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 23:19:31 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: RIFEX: ICP-MS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Eqn7k1.0.7R.hhlAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17424 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thank you Jean-Paul for your offer to perform ICP-MS analysis on our RIFEX beads. Assuming I can get the Run 3 beads back from Miley, I gratefully accept your offer. I am concerned about the small quantity of sample. The total weight of the coating on the 1 cc of reacted beads is around 1 milligram. Each element that comprises the coating is therefore present in fractional milligram quantities. That is the total sample available for analysis! Isn't it necessary to scan for extended periods of time to obtain the high-resolution mass spectra needed for isotopic ratio determinations? How much information can be obtained from a 1 mg sample? If the small sample quantity is a limiting factor, perhaps we could select one or two apparent anomalies, like the S32/S34 ratio, to investigate in detail. Presumably we must dissolve the coatings off the beads to make a solution to feed into the ICP-MS. Right? I look forward to the answers to all these questions. Thanks again. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 22:17:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25266; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980408051309.006b8160 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:13:09 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: Some Final Thoughts about the Face Resent-Message-ID: <"cmRgV3.0.iA6.9VmAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17425 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Jerry W. Decker" writes: >Gnorts Kurt et al! > >To other Gnorts, I don't mean to un-vortex here, just responding to >Kurts' well thought out post. Try the opposite; > >Mars developed intelligent life first. They achieved space travel and >colonized earth, thus the full blown form of man from out of nowhere. > >Note: 1) man is the only warm blooded mammal on the planet who does > not have a penile bone, even a vestigial bone, thus > indicating we did not naturally evolve here > 2) man, when placed in an environment protected from outside > light, like in underground caves, will revert to a 25 hour > day, a Mars day is about 25.1 hours as opposed to the > 'natural' Earth day of 24 hours. Regarding 1), man is the only *talking* warm blooded mammal, so does that mean "we did not naturally evolve here". My point is that the conclusion you make does not follow the fact you give. Regarding 2), when people are free of any fixed schedule, they do tend to fall asleep one hour later each night. The Mars explanation is something to consider, but an alternative explanation, for example, is that when people are allowed to sleep as much as they want, they have enough energy to last longer than the remainder of the day (in other words, the system has a built-in safety margin, kind of like getting fat). >The root civilization of Mars polluted their planet to such a degree >that they HAD to colonize earth. The Martian race either went >underground or became extinct due to pollution or war. > >Now, we are doing the same, trashing our environment (the premise for >Lost in Space). Maybe Mars did once have an ancient civilization. The fact that we are here on Earth means that similar organic-embodied beings could have been on Mars, IMO, as long as it was sufficiently wet, warm, and oxygenated. However, I think the current scientific opinion regarding Mars is that it lost its surface water a very, very long time ago. >The cool thing, IMHO, most people that I know think certain ancient >continents, (3 that I won't mention the name of) sank......there are >reports that the earth was once shrouded in a water jacket....when this >jacket was caused to precipitate, the water produced filled in the >valleys of the earth to create the oceans and seas at 'sea >level'....thus these 'sunken continents' were flooded rather than >destroyed by sinking. > >The Bimini underwater roads that lead down into the sea are one >indication and there are various reports of no stars in the night sky >before the flood, etc.... > >Way too out of place for vortex but interesting nonetheless. Atlantis, Mu, and ... it's been too long since I've read that kind of stuff. The Bimini underwater roads are in shallow water. The oceans rose roughly 100 feet when all the ice-age ice melted, so the Bimini artifacts probably date from that time, along with the flood stories, etc. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 22:30:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27023; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001701bd62af$ba347200$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:32:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"hWLHa2.0.7c6.AimAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17426 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >If the small sample quantity is a limiting factor, perhaps we could select >one or two apparent anomalies, like the S32/S34 ratio, to investigate in >detail. > >Presumably we must dissolve the coatings off the beads to make a solution >to feed into the ICP-MS. Right? > Scott, You will have problems with the ICP-MS 1 -- with only a milligram you are dealing with small quantities. 2 -- an ICP-MS is a destructive analysis 3 -- What happens if you use an organic or inorganic acid that does not dissolve the metal; of interest? For example, nitric will dissolve Ag but not Al! In my opinion (with a vast experience in nebulizing MS) you have problems. 1.0 mg dissolved in 10 ml of solution gives you a 100 ppm limit. This is GREAT! However, most ICP-MS systems will suck the solution at a rate of 0.4ml/sec. So you have a 25 sec shot -- no reruns, no peer review, you have to accept the reality of the one and only reading. This is complicated! Sorry, but there is problems with modern technology. ICP-MS is loaded with "false signals." This includes the additives of oxides, nitrides, chlorides, fluorides, bromides, hydrides and others (this is only to name a few). So one must accept the software algorithms of the computer or try to calculate the possibilities. IT CAN BE DONE, but not shooting the sample one time. The above was presented as the opinion of the writer. Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 7 23:29:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20667; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:27:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:27:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:27:18 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804080627.XAA22347 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: D2O sonoluminescence question Resent-Message-ID: <"JzQ0D.0.q25.EZnAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17427 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott L. wrote: >I'm not sure what you're talking about here but my apparatus (a piezo >xducer with an amplitude-increasing horn) does produce cavitation. Hi Scott, I'm not really sure what I'm talking about most of the time either, but I do it anyway. Bats have been found to emit sonic waves, and then sense the reflection of those waves off of solid objects as a means of navigation. I've talked to blind people who have told me that they do the same thing. Maybe that's what I'm doing too, I don't know. I have certainly spent enough time in the dark, bouncing sound waves off of solid objects. You are undoubtedly correct about your apparatus producing cavitation, but explaining what I mean will take a day or two for me to write. >>>Have you asked Seth Putterman, leading sonoluminescence researcher? >> >>Have you read his latest patent yet? It'll rock your world if it's true.- > >Could you post the patent number please? http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5659173 Sure, there it is, I think AKI posted it here around the first of the year. When I first took a look at the drawings, it was like a lightening bolt struck me. Putterman has all the makings of an old-fashioned, locomotive type steam engine except that it can be powered by (according to the claims) cold fusion. And it all fits on a tabletop. Reading through the text of the patent, you will find all kinds of great theoretical mumbo-jumbo, very intelligently written, which will be a treat for many of you, but for me, the drawings were the cupcake. It's an excellent approach from an engineering standpoint, and as a scientific testbed, it will enable researchers to get the much needed "real-life data", with fewer working materials. I have been gathering materials to do a replication myself, and hope to do some experimenting here shortly. One of the prime drawbacks of the CETI and CG technology test efforts, IMHO, is the fact that neither the RIFEX kit, nor the CG kit were designed to show excess heat, they were both meant to show transmutation or isotope shifts. Because of the high number of materials in both kits, and the fact that both kits will, because of the nature of the respective methods employed, transfer parts of the materials around to different parts of the test system (some of the material will even escape the systems), looking for isotope shifts is difficult. It's a question of funding priorities really, and I think that your tests, the Battelle lab efforts, and Miley's results combined have been good "triage" efforts to determine whether or not these methods deserve a closer look. In my opinion, they do deserve a closer look, even in spite of some of the negative results and speculations. You and I have had this discussion before in private with regards to the testing of my own device, and it remains that any test system that includes flowing liquids, gases, and 40 different materials of construction, will have to be completely contained, and the entire system (all the hardware, working fluids, and resulting gasses) will have to be collected, the hardware ground into a powder, and everything, the gases, liquids, and powder will have to be analysed by the *appropriate* methods to determine if there has been any transmutation. Since you can't do "before and after" analysis if you use this method of testing, you will have to do this with several separate control systems as well. All of the systems will have to be of the same materials of construction, and the materials themselves will even have to come from the same production batches or runs. The same goes for the working materials. You will have to test these systems ten or twenty times (ten or twenty separate systems), and get similar data each time before you will even begin to have an idea of what may be occurring. That effort alone would cost several million dollars, and take a couple of years, if properly done. Just designing the test should involve the expert opinion of a large body of individuals coming from numerous disciplines and backrounds to avoid any chance of spending all that time and money, and then finding out there is a glaring systematic error in the test design. Do I think that this extensive of an effort should be made? Yes, I do. It should be made for every proposed approach to the energy/pollution problem. The Putterman approach and the approach used by most of the SBSL crowd is to put the xducer on the outside of the working cell. Not only does this produce a nondestructive form of cavitation with much lower driving power requirements, it also makes it easier and much less expensive to test the system for isotope shifts. The working fluids are in contact only with the quartz glass, the gasses are easier to collect, and all you have to grind down into a powder is the glass. For most of the SBSL configurations, there are no messy proprietary hassles or NDA's either. That's where the I run into the majority of my headaches, and it makes the engineering hassles look trivial by comparison. You can do your experimentation on a public domain configuration, publish your findings, and not worry about it. You can do alot of useful science with those setups as well. I gotta go, -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 00:38:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29635; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:37:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:37:36 -0700 Message-ID: <352B29B5.86175CB4 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:39:34 +0200 From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS References: <3.0.5.32.19980407231931.009199a0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"7f7mX3.0.vE7._aoAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17428 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, we have access to a brand new ICP-MS from HP, which can easily detect 10 ppb. I believe we should see something regarding the isotopic ratio. Yes the sample has to be in a liquid form, I guess you can dissolve the beads in nitric acid. And I also agree with Joe Champion that dissolving is not that easy because some elements do not react with nitric acid. It is free, and simple, so why not give it a chance. Jean-Paul Biberian From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 01:56:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03642; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:55:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:55:27 -0700 From: JNaudin509 Message-ID: <94dcba65.352b3b55 aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 04:54:43 EDT To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: A Vortex in a Bottle, a very simple experiment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"fJx853.0.mu.-jpAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17429 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vortexians... You will find very simple and "recreative" experiment about the generation of a Vortex...You will see with this experiment how a bidirectional flow (water/air) share the small 9 mm hole between the two plastic soda bottles...Very amazing and instructive for the knowledge of vortexes..... See at : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/vtxbottle.htm Have fun, Jean-Louis Naudin 04-08-98 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 05:15:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22715; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:14:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:14:44 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <004101bd62e7$8964e460$608cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Twistors and Time Tunneling Through Space? Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:11:17 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"e6Bl3.0.pY5.pesAr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17430 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A Circularly Polarized EM Wave "attached" to a spaceship should "Auger" through the "Aether" by creating a vortex in it: \ \ "Aether" \ \ \ ---->________ ________| > maximum mass-energy-point of vortex / / / / / The maximum mass-energy-point (mep) will attract the ship with a "gravitational pull" or gravity warp. Since CV is constant Capacitance (C) will approach Zero at the point, and Potential V will approach infinity (E = 1/2 CV^2). The ship velocity under these "rarefied aether" conditions can approach infinity,thus circumventing the relativistic mass increase imposed by the aether. This FTL approach will also result in a "Time Warp" even with local flight maneuvers. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 09:06:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07215; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980408095938.00b8247c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:59:38 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS In-Reply-To: <352B29B5.86175CB4 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> References: <3.0.5.32.19980407231931.009199a0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JA_l43.0.em1.vxvAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17431 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:39 4/8/98 +0200, Jean-Paul wrote: >It is free, and simple, so why not give it a chance. and Joe Champion wrote: >So you have a 25 sec shot -- no reruns, no peer review, you have to accept >the reality of the one and only reading. Yikes! Jean-Paul, let's focus on the S32/S34 ratio measurement. Please look at the mass spectra shown at: http://www.cea.com/cai/simstheo/isoratio.htm It shows what kind of resolution is required to separate S32 from the O16 molecule. I'm guessing that spectra was acquired with a m/dm setting of about 10,000 (my guess...if anyone knows better please speak up). If you set your ICP-MS that tightly, and feed it 10 ml of solution that is ~20 ppm S, how many counts will you get in the mass range that includes the S32 and S34 peaks by the time the entire sample has been consumed? In other words, what is the throughput in counts/sec/ppm for this mass range when the resolution is set to 10,000? Also, do you concur with Joe's estimate that the sample will be consumed at 0.4 ml/sec by the analyzer? Since we have only one irreplacable sample, it is necessary to explore all these issues in depth before the analysis. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 13:01:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24439; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:57:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <94dcba65.352b3b55 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:55:28 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: A Vortex in a Bottle, (and a GIT test) Resent-Message-ID: <"JD_6S1.0.iz5.kQzAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17432 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Louis: Thanks for reminding us of that neat soda bottle demonstration. My girlfriend is a kindergarten teacher, and her kids love it. On another subject, could you confirm that you have successfully built and tested a 'J' ramp and hollow ball arrangement related to the Gravitational Inertial Thruster, or "GIT"? I understand the rails of the 'J' track spread apart so the angular momentum of the ball is higher during one part of the track and lower on the other, and that you can start the ball off on the short end of the 'J' and it will end up at a higher point on the long end of the 'J'. If this is indeed what happens, what's to prevent you from connecting a few 'J' ramps in a more or less circular fashion, and getting continuous rollarounds - like a working SMOT but with no magnets? I have visited the web site or the GIT, and I know that they make the claim there that the ball does end up at a higher point than the starting point on such a ramp, and this is given as a proof that the basic GIT mechanism violates the laws of physics as we currently know them, and that the equations related to the total momentum of the ball going from gravitational potential energy to translational and angular momentum must be wrong. Could you post anything on this so that some of us here might try to follow up on that 'J' ramp thing? Also, do you have any ideas what the correct equations are for calculating the momentum of the ball so that it can be shown that it will rise up the 'J' ramp to a level higher than the one from which it was released? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 14:33:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12043; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352BDDFE.6B34 earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:28:46 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: CF: Reding: CETI RIFEX (tm) Research Kit 04/08/98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_gl_33.0.3y2.Xn-Ar" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17433 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subject: CETI RIFEX(tm) RESEARCH KIT Date: Wed, 8 Apr 98 18:27:45 UT From: "James Reding" To: little eden.com, letters@csicop.org, editors@sciam.com, sarfatti well.com, rmforall earthlink.net, droege@wwa.com, koonin@caltech.edu, ahu vvtp.tn.tudelft.nl, rbspiel worldnet.att.net, bward@ix.netcom.com, msevior liszt.ph.unimelb, jchampion transmutation.com, aki@ix.netcom.com, claytor_t_n lanl.gov, g-miley uiuc.edu, mizuno@qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti@msn.com, design73 aol.com, mcfee xdiv.lanl.gov, wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, sukhanov srdlan.npi.msu.su, zettsjs@ml.wpafb.af.mill, kirk.shanahan srs.gov, blue pilot.msu.edu, sejones@physics1.ln.byu.edu, terry4 llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net, mokuniewsk aol.com, dennis@wazoo.com Greetings Everyone, We are pleased with the recent distribution of the RIFEX(tm) research kit results from Scott Little of Earthtech International. A special thanks for all of Scott's investigative work in bringing about the conclusion of this program. The detailed materials analysis provided in this report may suggest areas for further improvement in future transmutation studies. Many researchers in the field have watched with intense interest, and their patience is appreciated. The results of this study are all but conclusive, and may provide more questions than answers for the emerging field of low energy nuclear reactions(LENR). A formal response from Dr. James Patterson of CETI and Dr. George Miley of the University of Illinois will follow in coming weeks. Additional informal discussions are anticipated at the upcoming ICCF-7 meeting in Vancouver, April 19-24, 1998. The RIFEX(tm) kit was designed to study low energy nuclear reactions and their subsequent transmutation products. Hands-on training and protocols provided at the University of Illinois were developed to instruct kit recipients as to operation of the system, and to discuss various analytical techniques for examining post-run experimental materials. The instructional presentation and kit apparatus were not designed to produce thermal energy. Rather, the RIFEX(tm) kit utilizes a specific Cetisphere(tm ) bead configuration, which is optimized for transmutation studies as opposed to thermal energy production. In any case, the investigator elected to conduct thermal studies with the apparatus with the understanding that CETI did not expect the excess heat phenomena would be observed. As expected, calorimetric studies conducted with the research kit report an absence of excess thermal energy. The present data report observations of new elements within the experimental materials. The basis for the production of these elements remains the central question in these studies. The investigator's interpretation of the data reports that these elements were already present within the system, and were the result of conventional chemical processes. Notably, this interpretation is in contrast with a variety of other studies conducted on this technology. Other LENR verifications in a variety of corporate and independent laboratories provide a context in which the present results may be considered. A more detailed technical examination of the present report and response will follow shortly. Thank you for your interest in Clean Energy Technologies, Inc. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 14:42:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06148; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:36:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:36:17 -0700 Message-ID: <352BEE52.D4250BA7 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:38:26 +0200 From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS References: <3.0.5.32.19980407231931.009199a0 mail.eden.com> <3.0.1.32.19980408095938.00b8247c@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OdIC1.0.dV1.Dt-Ar" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17434 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, You cannot compare ICP-MS and SIMS. In ICP-MS, for the reason that you have much less intereference. Beacause of the high temperature of the plasma, you break up the molecules into its atom constituants, therefore you analyse only atoms, not molecules.The O2, S interference disappears. As a matter of fact SIMS utilizes either magnetic or Time of Flight mass spectrometers, whereas ICP-MS utilizes quadrupole analysers, which are a lot simpler. I have to tell that this is new to me, and that we are doing some experiments with our own beads, but I am not sure I will have the results for ICCF7. But it will be very close anyway. I will check with experts regarding the possibility of an interference between O2 and S. Jean-Paul Biberian From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 16:33:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05077; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980408232801.4884.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [132.235.9.22] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Easy to make cold "fussion" cell Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:28:01 PDT Resent-Message-ID: <"setEh.0.8F1.GY0Br" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17435 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello, I have recently obtained plans for a "cold fussion" cell from a company called Underground Electronics Unlimited. Yes, they call it "fussion" instead of fusion because they say it is not technically fusion. The cell consists of a heavy glass container with a piece of nickel sheet metal laying on the botton to serve as the cathode. Nickel or platinum beads are placed on top of the nickel plate which fill the container half way. On top of the beads is placed a sheet of non-conducting plastic. Over this plastic is placed the honeycomb interior of an automoble catalytic converter that has been cut in half. The catalytic converter serves as the anode. A water and sodium carbonate electrolyte is poured into the container halfway up the catalytic converter. Supposedly, when the anode and cathode are hooked up to a 27 volt power supply, the cell will at first draw much amps until it heats up and then the power to run it will be less than the energy output (in the form of heat and hydrogen gas). This cell seems almost too simple. Does anyone have an idea if this is possible. It similar to the Patterson cell but much simpler. Peter ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 22:34:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24250; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <005601bd6378$e4b93410$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:32:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"KG4eW.0.qw5.9o5Br" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17436 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Yikes! > >Jean-Paul, let's focus on the S32/S34 ratio measurement. Please look at >the mass spectra shown at: > Scott, I can only speak with authority on the Perkin Elmer Elan 7000 series (latest model) ICP-MS. However, this technology covers the average modern ICP-MS. There are numerous problems below mass 44. Depending if the sample is dissolved by a mineral acid such as HCl there are problems up to near mass 80 First off, window separation is+/- 0.2 amu. It will not disseminate between O2 and S32. For example: O and O2 = 16 and 32 N and N2 = 14 and 28 Ar and Ar2 = 20 and 40 (this one is a true bitch, for it is a standard carrier gas) Cl and Cl2 = 35 and 70 35 and 72 37 and 74 If you are looking at S, you have to rely on the computer algorithms. What is does is look for S34 and then it calculates the counts for S32 based on natural abundance. It applies the remainder counts to O2. Guess what the difference is? The same goes with Si, Ca and numerous other lighter elements. Scott, you and I have been around the horn a few times on analytical techniques. Even with modern technology, the bottom line is -- the facts of the numbers are based on human interpretation, not on a computer based program design around natural abundance's. Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 23:00:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29901; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:56:08 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980409005627.008f1dc0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 00:56:27 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS In-Reply-To: <005601bd6378$e4b93410$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"HA1yc2.0.7J7.tB6Br" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17437 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:32 PM 4/8/98 -0700, JoeC wrote: >Scott, I can only speak with authority on the Perkin Elmer Elan 7000 series >First off, window separation is+/- 0.2 amu. It will not disseminate between >O2 and S32. Can't you adjust the mass resolution to relatively high levels if you're willing to put up with lower thruput? hmmmm, I just looked at both Perkin-Elmer's web page and HP's. HP has a nice explanation at: http://chem.external.hp.com/cag/products/icpmstec.htm#Introduction but neither of them state the mass resolution thay can attain! Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 23:20:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01612; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <007e01bd637f$d40b2ae0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:22:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"_SqAy.0.2P.kW6Br" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17438 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: >Can't you adjust the mass resolution to relatively high levels if you're >willing to put up with lower thruput? > >hmmmm, I just looked at both Perkin-Elmer's web page and HP's. HP has a >nice explanation at: > >http://chem.external.hp.com/cag/products/icpmstec.htm#Introduction > >but neither of them state the mass resolution thay can attain! > Scott, Your logic is, as always, great. However, if the information display parameters are not calibrated for higher resolutions (amu separation) you are redesigning the wheel. For example, Perkin Elmer does not like to report (receive data from the detectors) 14 ==> 18, 20,21 40, 41 and a few others. The reason being the detector is at saturation of normal monatomic (monatomic due to the plasma temperature) and the normal diatomic state of most gases. These gases are found in most all aqueous samples (in some cases only as dissolved gases). Joe Champion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 8 23:45:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03926; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:44:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:44:28 -0700 From: JNaudin509 Message-ID: <28a03b02.352c6e22 aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:43:44 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com, monteverde@worldnet.att.net Cc: davidc open.org, harti@harti.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re : Re: A Vortex in a Bottle, (and a GIT test) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"rDt2L3.0.Gz.Bv6Br" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17439 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rick, On 08/04/1998 21:58:15 , monteverde worldnet.att.net wrote : << On another subject, could you confirm that you have successfully built and tested a 'J' ramp and hollow ball arrangement related to the Gravitational Inertial Thruster, or "GIT"?>> Yes, I can confirm that I have build the J ramp as showed in David Cowlishaw web site. I have built three models: -the first one (V1.00) made with plywood. I have put antistrip rubbers on the J ramp and used hollow ball. -and two next models was made with a simple cardboard sheet (the v1.01 and the v1.02), the latest (the v1.02) demonstrate clearly the main effect claimed by David Cowlishaw. In all cases, it is recommended to use an HOLLOW BALL. Today, I have updated my web site with all diagrams, pictures and videos about my GIT (linear version) experiment that I have conducted in June 97, at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/git102.htm Sincerely, Jean-Louis Naudin >> From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 00:41:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10730; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352C742F.92530B19 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:09:35 +0200 From: "Jean - Paul Bibérian" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS References: <3.0.5.32.19980409005627.008f1dc0 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"fyQ1O1.0.ad2.gh7Br" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17440 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott, with a quadrupole, you can only look at integer masses. It is impossible to separate isotopes. however the computer calculations are notsophisticated at all. You can do the corrections easily with pen and paper. However I agree that in some cases one cannot conclude, and therefore we must be extremely cautious. I was not impressed by the data given by Cincinnati group. I could not even check the blanck. There were isotopic anomalies there which I believe are impossible by definition. I think, but I am not sure they used a bar graph, then if the calibration is not correct, you can miss part of a peak. The way to go is to make a full detailed spectrum, and to integrate under the peak. I don't think CG did it. Jean-Paul From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 02:08:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19974; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:07:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:07:55 -0700 From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:03:17 GMT Message-ID: <352c8a48.8838044 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <199804052137.OAA15188 Au.oro.net> <352c5417.6766399@kcbbs.gen.nz> <3529D98B.5C3822FC@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> In-Reply-To: <3529D98B.5C3822FC mail.pc.centuryinter.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"_JSRH.0.xt4.d_8Br" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17442 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 07 Apr 1998 07:45:15 +0000, "Taylor J. Smith" wrote: >If you know the Gravitational Potential, o* : > > o* = -GM/R^2 *** I don't think you want the ^2 here >where G is the gravitational constant 6.67E-11, >M is the mass of the "Star" and R is it's radius > >... From this the change in local light speed c: > >c = c0(1 + o*/c^2) > >or since wavelength (lambda) equals c/f, > >f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), > >one may conclude that: >... R in the formula is in fact the distance >from the centre of the body, and has nothing >to do with its radius. It does have to do with the radius if the light is emitted at the surface. If emitted at R1 and observed at R2 then the effect is GM/R1-GM/R2. >This further implies that >the red shift [of sunlight] "seen" by Jupiter >is greater than that seen by Earth. The change is proportional to the change in 1/R between the sun's surface and either Earth distance or Jupiter distance (wrongly ignoring the effect of the planets gravity for the moment). Given that 1/R for the sun's surface is 1.437*10^-6/km and for earth and jupiter's distances from the sun are 0.007*10^-6/km and 0.001*10^-6/km you can see that the difference between 1.430 and 1.436 is not much. >So here is my question: > >Since f = f0(1 + o*/c^2), and R is the distance to >a celestial object, how does one distinguish between >the red shift due to the mass and distance of the >celestial object and the Doppler red shift due to >the velocity at which the object is supposedly >moving away from the Earth? Once the distance from an object is say 1000 times the radius of the object then the gravitational redshift is effectively constant. Also, for stars the gravitational redshift amounts to typically 1 to 5 parts in a million and so is very small. For the sun it is equivalent to 0.6 km/s velocity. Even for whole galaxies it is of a similar order of magnitude. Only for pulsars and (near) black holes is it substantial. Most of the redshifts that are measured are at least 99.9% attributable to cosmological factors rather than gravity. -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 02:09:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19956; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:07:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 02:07:50 -0700 From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Merging Black Holes, will they form QSO's Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:03:20 GMT Message-ID: <352d8cce.9484893 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <199804070502.WAA11955 Au.oro.net> In-Reply-To: <199804070502.WAA11955 Au.oro.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JLXvY.0.gt4.a_8Br" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17441 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:02:18 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) wrote: I (Ray) wrote: >>I think that this applies regardless of >>whether the aether is tensile or fluid. A higher density region cannot >>be sustained against the pressure of that region. A low density region >>can be sustained by rotational and centrifugal forces. >The minute you say that something is sustained by a "force", you are just >saying that something is happening I cannot explain, ie something is >accelerating, and I am thus going to blame it on a force. That is the >nature of saying that something reaches out, grabs onto something else >**across a void** and pulls. With fluid, the fluid rams into other >components of the same fluid, action begets action, and it is all simple and >clear. I think that you are nit-picking here Ross. You can leave out the word force if you want, but the answer is the same. The pressure in a high density region must push outwards removing the anomaly. In a low density region an anomolous density can be maintained by rotation. >As for high pressure vortices, we know about lots of versions of them. The >Great Red Spot is a high pressure cyclone. How do you arrive at this? >Consider spherical vortices for electrons. Then, you get a cubic for the >next larger waveform, and a fourth power for the energy density amplification. > >Then, 0.511 MeV * 2^7 = 65.408 > >Mass muon = 105.8 (old reference, Feynman's QED) > >the ratio of those results is 105.8/65.408 = 1.6175 ~= 1.618034 > >That is a ratio of 0.9997. Not too bad! I don't find this convincing. If you can make some predictions that other people cannot from it and they turn out correct then it becomes more interesting. >Now, let's get into the nitty gritty because what you just opened was a >heaping pile of worms aimed right at vindicating Arp. > >first question; you mention a major peak at zero, fine. Then, 3 and 6 >km/s. Are these an increase in the red shift or a decrease in the red >shift, or both (ie two peaks on either side of zero?) Only on one side, and from memory the change is by -3 and -6 km/s to the recession velocity. I will try and find the relevant Tifft paper. >Second, have they performed this on quasars? And if so, do they tend to >have greater changes than "normal" galaxies? I am not aware of any work of this type on quasars. >>* Frequencies of matter change with TIME not light wavelengths with >>distance. > >But if only a small number of galaxies, at all red shifts are changing, then >you cannot say this because if this is so, they all ought to change by the >same amount!!!!!!!!????????????// si yes no? Even if all galaxies changed at the same instant (which they probably don't) we would see them change at different time intervals depending on their distance. -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 10:43:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00610; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:38:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:38:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980409123815.00b6c3ec mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 12:38:15 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS In-Reply-To: <352C742F.92530B19 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> References: <3.0.5.32.19980409005627.008f1dc0 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id KAA00551 Resent-Message-ID: <"X1tIu3.0.E9.OUGBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17443 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:09 4/9/98 +0200, Jean - Paul Bibérian wrote: >with a quadrupole, you can only look at integer masses. OK, then the key issue becomes molecular interferences. You indicated that the plasma makes everything monoatomic. But Joe C's comments indicate otherwise, I think. How about it Joe, is everything going into the quadrupole truly monoatomic...or do some molecules get in as well? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 14:40:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18930; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:37:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:37:31 -0700 Message-ID: <009701bd6400$73def0d0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: RIFEX: ICP-MS Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:42:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"2I21e2.0.cd4.P-JBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17444 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: > >How about it Joe, is everything going into the quadrupole truly >monoatomic...or do some molecules get in as well? > Scott, I can only discuss the older systems and Perkin Elmers newest generation. The answer is large quantities of diatomics enter the quadrupole! I am between production runs at this time so I though I would give you a quick response. Later this evening, I will post on the Internet Perkin Elmer data from actual runs of my material. You can judge from there. Joe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 15:50:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03207; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:44:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:44:31 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00b301bd6408$9f57f6a0$608cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Speed of Light,Through a Vacuum Vortex? Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:40:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"5mHNp.0.0o.DzKBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17445 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A long glass tube with a hard vacuum in a circularly polarized EM field that should create a vortex in the vacuum, then measurement of the S.O.L. through the length of the vortex. Anything less than 3.335640 nanoseconds/meter would be of interest. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 18:23:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09699; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:13:26 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: GIT: hunting-impaired canine? Resent-Message-ID: <"lyjXQ3.0.RN2.yCNBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17446 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jean-Louis wrote: > Yes, I can confirm that I have build the J > ramp as showed in David Cowlishaw web site. [snip] > [...]the latest (the v1.02) demonstrate clearly > the main effect claimed by David Cowlishaw. The laws of physics don't usually yield quite so easily, and it seems this dog don't hunt either, as they say. Many people might think it a silly waste of time to even try something like this, but for some of us, it can be a useful learning experience. It seems that the conservation of momentum, friction, and common sense dictate that the ramp does NOT perform as David Cowlishaw says it does, and therefore the device based on this 'principle' is very likely not to work either. I built a neoprene rubber rimmed plywood ramp as described, and tested it with a hollow glass fishing float. Perhaps the illusion here that folks are fooling themselves with is that the ball does in fact roll to a point further along the track when started from one end than it does the other. Viewed from above as in the diagrams on Jean-Louis' web page on the GIT ramp experiment, you can see that the ball does go further. But compelling illusion notwithstanding, the key point is that the ball does not rise *higher* than its starting point in any case. The track spreads apart and the ball does go further when viewed from the top, but its center of mass ends up just a tad lower as would be expected under ordinary circumstances. This is very simple, and I wanted to see for myself what it was that had a number of people going. No offense intended to anyone, but the GIT goes into my 'negative' bin, based on actual experience. If Jean-Louis or anyone can correct me and show (preferably with level reference lines visible behind the track when viewed from the side) that in fact the ball DOES rise higher than its starting point, I would be so pleased you just wouldn't know! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 9 20:53:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29811; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:49:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:49:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:42:55 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Vortex-L Subject: Old toy...Re: GIT: hunting-impaired canine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"A90Do.0.iH7.sQPBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17447 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Hey Rick! I have not been following this GIT thing closely. Let me know if what I describe is the GIT ramp: There is an old science demonstration, also sold as a toy. It is a ball, usually steel, of, say, 1.5" diameter. A track made from two straight rails slopes gently upward. The rails also diverge. The two factors are so set up as to have, for example, the center of the ball descend ~3/4 of an inch and the rails get wider. The upward slope of the rails might be ~1/2 inch, from one end of a 6" track to the other. The rails-tracks visibly slope upward... it is quite clear ... but the sphere has actually descended by ~1/4 inch. I remember at least two magazine ads, one in Popular Science and one in an educational magazine. We made them as school students. J On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Jean-Louis wrote: > > > Yes, I can confirm that I have build the J > > ramp as showed in David Cowlishaw web site. > > [snip] > > > [...]the latest (the v1.02) demonstrate clearly > > the main effect claimed by David Cowlishaw. > > The laws of physics don't usually yield quite so easily, and it seems this > dog don't hunt either, as they say. Many people might think it a silly > waste of time to even try something like this, but for some of us, it can > be a useful learning experience. It seems that the conservation of > momentum, friction, and common sense dictate that the ramp does NOT perform > as David Cowlishaw says it does, and therefore the device based on this > 'principle' is very likely not to work either. I built a neoprene rubber > rimmed plywood ramp as described, and tested it with a hollow glass fishing > float. > > Perhaps the illusion here that folks are fooling themselves with is that > the ball does in fact roll to a point further along the track when started > from one end than it does the other. Viewed from above as in the diagrams > on Jean-Louis' web page on the GIT ramp experiment, you can see that the > ball does go further. But compelling illusion notwithstanding, the key > point is that the ball does not rise *higher* than its starting point in > any case. The track spreads apart and the ball does go further when viewed > from the top, but its center of mass ends up just a tad lower as would be > expected under ordinary circumstances. > > This is very simple, and I wanted to see for myself what it was that had a > number of people going. No offense intended to anyone, but the GIT goes > into my 'negative' bin, based on actual experience. If Jean-Louis or anyone > can correct me and show (preferably with level reference lines visible > behind the track when viewed from the side) that in fact the ball DOES rise > higher than its starting point, I would be so pleased you just wouldn't > know! > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 00:45:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13262; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:42:39 -0700 (PDT) From: JNaudin509 Message-ID: <28a20a5b.352dcce4 aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:40:18 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com, davidc@open.org Cc: monteverde worldnet.att.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re : GIT: hunting-impaired canine? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 116 Resent-Message-ID: <"IQs3U3.0.4F3.jrSBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17448 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 10/04/1998 03:20:19 , monteverde worldnet.att.net you wrote : << If Jean-Louis or anyone can correct me and show (preferably with level reference lines visible behind the track when viewed from the side) that in fact the ball DOES rise higher than its starting point, I would be so pleased you just wouldn't know! >> Hi Rick, I have never said that the GIT is a free energy device, this is an Inertial propulsion device,. The only fact really noticed is that the major LINEAR KINETIC ENERGY IS CONVERTED INTO ROTATIONAL ENERGY. This device consume energy but generate a thrust like a propeler. This is the main principle used in the rotating version of the David Colishaw device. By this way a UNIDIRECTIONAL thrust can be generated because in one way the centrifugal force is greater than the centrifugal force in opposite way due to this linear speed conversion. This effect is observed in many others device like the Dean drive, the Cook (CIP) drive, the Laskowith drive, the Nowlin drive, the Matyas drive, the Cuff drive, the Thornson drive..... the GIT drive is one of the many devices which prove that it is possible to violate the principle of action/reaction....This is not a free energy generator but an Inertial Thruster. Sinecerly, Jean-Louis Naudin From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 03:20:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22550; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:15:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <28a20a5b.352dcce4 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:13:04 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re : GIT: hunting-impaired canine? Resent-Message-ID: <"iXs0b3.0.GW5.i4VBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17449 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jean-Louis: > I have never said that the GIT is a free energy > device, this is an Inertial propulsion device,. > The only fact really noticed is that the major > LINEAR KINETIC ENERGY IS CONVERTED INTO > ROTATIONAL ENERGY. This device consume > energy but generate a thrust like a propeler. I understand the claims that Cowlishaw makes, and I wish they were true. But here is a quote from his website regarding the J-ramp: > Since the contact path is no longer forcing the > ball back into the same spin geometry, the > energy acquired on the spin side now only has > to lift the ordinary mass (rather than turn > the ring) as a point mass up the other side, > and thus can go even higher up the other side! It's the "higher up the other side" thing that's causing me some problem. If it's just to demo how the variable width races work, fine. But the claim seems to be that you can release the ball from a level on the wide side, and it will rise up higher on the other side. I was not able to see this effect, nor even really any difference between starting it from one side or the other. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 03:53:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13033; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:52:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:52:17 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00d701bd646e$3b0363e0$608cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:47:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"FkGas3.0.ZB3.WdVBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17450 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: In circularly polarized EM waves, the tip of the electric vector describes a circular helix of constant amplitude about the propagation direction (axis). The frequency of rotation is equal to the frequency of the wave. The literature claims that circularly polarized light will tend to rotate a thin sheet of mica as it passes through it. How much of a vortex (in the aether) will a 2.45 Gigahertz wave out of a kilowatt microwave oven create down a 0.04 meter (1.6")diameter tube evacuated to 1.0E-8 Torr? (more or less) Will a plastic "rod" acting as a waveguide achieve the circular polarization? And, will a beam of light traverse the long axis of this vortex at a velocity greater than the S.O.L.? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 05:36:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03193; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 05:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 05:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <352DBB12.5E59E61A mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:24:18 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Local Geophysical Resonances References: <352D9A29.5404 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"va5nR3.0.nn.X7XBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17451 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry W. Decker quoted: "... For these purposes ICIC uses new scientific approach to the analysis and forecasting of catastrophes, based on a principle of A LOCAL GEOPHYSICAL RESONANCE ( LGR ). LGR is an unknown earlier fundamental phenomenon, reflecting a property of physical (cosmic) space. It is displayed in the form of an excitation of the physical space on a microlevel as a result of the planets interaction of the Sun's system. This excitation renders a strong influence on crystal and molecular structures of physical objects - natural and technical, the effect also occurs in living organisms. ...." Hi Jerry, Do you think that LGR may have anything to do with the capacitor results obtained by Rick Monteverde? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 06:55:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20005; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352E23B7.632F interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:50:47 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves References: <00d701bd646e$3b0363e0$608cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Dbg3T.0.Ou4.5HYBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17452 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > How much of a vortex (in the aether) will a 2.45 Gigahertz wave out of a > kilowatt microwave oven create down a 0.04 meter (1.6")diameter tube > evacuated to 1.0E-8 Torr? (more or less) > > Will a plastic "rod" acting as a waveguide achieve the circular > polarization? > Fred, will a cylindrical metal waveguide pass a Transverse-Electric wave? If so, the axial symmetry of the cylinder would have no preferential orientation effect on the wave - right? Then, if you inserted a twisted, flat ribbon of teflon down the length of the circular waveguide, would a horn antenna at the guide's end emit a circularly polarized EM wave? And, if you pointed this EM beam straight up towards the base of a thunderstorm on a warm Ohio day in July, would the EM beam start the air rotating into a vortex - thus triggering (CCW from the top, of course!) a level 5 twister that would proceed to eliminate any trace of the researcher and his/her apparatus from the vicinity of the effect? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 08:47:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17482; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: ?? ICIC ???Re: Local Geophysical Resonances In-Reply-To: <352DBB12.5E59E61A mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"27e-F3.0.4H4.BvZBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17453 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Folks, Any idea what ICIC is? Any idea how these resonances are measured? J On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Taylor J. Smith wrote: > Jerry W. Decker quoted: > > "... For these purposes ICIC uses new scientific > approach to the analysis and forecasting of catastrophes, > based on a principle of A LOCAL GEOPHYSICAL RESONANCE ( LGR ). > > LGR is an unknown earlier fundamental phenomenon, reflecting a property > of physical (cosmic) space. It is displayed in the form of an > excitation of the physical space on a microlevel as a result of the > planets interaction of the Sun's system. > > This excitation renders a strong influence on crystal and molecular > structures of physical objects - natural and technical, the effect also > occurs in living organisms. ...." > > Hi Jerry, > > Do you think that LGR may have anything to do with the capacitor > results obtained by Rick Monteverde? > > Jack Smith > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 11:03:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15749; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:00:12 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804101758.MAA25383 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves In-Reply-To: <00d701bd646e$3b0363e0$608cbfa8 default> from "Frederick J. Sparber" at "Apr 10, 98 04:47:59 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:58:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"GkY2a.0.wr3.gubBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17454 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Frederick wrote: > In circularly polarized EM waves, the tip of the electric vector describes a > circular helix of constant amplitude about the propagation direction (axis). > The frequency of rotation is equal to the frequency of the wave. I don't follow most of these threads, so if this has already been mentioned, my apologies ... But, it takes pairs of photons to create the illusion of circular polarization. One photon is orthognal (at right angles) in polarization from the other photon *and* one photon is 90 lagging or leading in phase of the other photon. If the pairs aren't quite at right angles, or the phases aren't quite 90 degrees apart, then you get some sort of elliptical polarization. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 11:22:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26507; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:21:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:21:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980410132053.00b85794 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:20:53 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves In-Reply-To: <352E23B7.632F interlaced.net> References: <00d701bd646e$3b0363e0$608cbfa8 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8bby2.0.5U6.ECcBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17455 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:50 4/10/98 -0400, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >a level 5 twister that would proceed to eliminate any trace of the >researcher and his/her apparatus from the vicinity of the effect? Wow, Frank. Since a positive result from this experiment completely erases any evidence that the experiment has been performed, we are free to speculate as to how many times this experiment has been successfully conducted. I say 42! Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 11:36:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29587; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:34:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:34:32 -0700 Message-ID: <352E6649.537D interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:34:49 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves References: <00d701bd646e$3b0363e0$608cbfa8 default> <3.0.1.32.19980410132053.00b85794@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WJ8hg.0.BE7.qOcBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17457 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott Little wrote: > > Wow, Frank. Since a positive result from this experiment completely erases > any evidence that the experiment has been performed, we are free to > speculate as to how many times this experiment has been successfully > conducted. I say 42! Good estimate, Scott. I was just thinking, though, after the other night in Alabama, maybe I should avoid twister jokes! Frank From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 11:38:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28980; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:30:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:30:03 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001001bd64ae$27ed6b80$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" , "George" , "John Logajan" Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:26:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"sTHLr.0.k47.fKcBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17456 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Logajan To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves >Frederick wrote: >> In circularly polarized EM waves, the tip of the electric vector describes a >> circular helix of constant amplitude about the propagation direction (axis). >> The frequency of rotation is equal to the frequency of the wave. > >I don't follow most of these threads, so if this has already been mentioned, >my apologies ... > >But, it takes pairs of photons to create the illusion of circular >polarization. One photon is orthogonal (at right angles) in polarization >from the other photon *and* one photon is 90 lagging or leading in phase >of the other photon. > >If the pairs aren't quite at right angles, or the phases aren't quite >90 degrees apart, then you get some sort of elliptical polarization. True John, But ANY EM WAVE can be CIRCULARLY POLARIZED. As a matter of fact reflection of EM waves off the ionosphere can create A PAIR of circularly polarized EM WAVES as though it were PARTICLE PAIR PRODUCTION! The Vortex in the AETHER should produce enormous amounts of ENERGY, W = 1/2 CV^2 or W = kq^2/R where R is the RADIUS of the VORTEX. This is the same as a FUNDAMENTAL PARTICLE with a CHARGE q = CV and "SPIN" v*r = hbar*alpha/m. If a circularized wave can create a vortex, then tapping what is thought to be "ZPE" is a piece of cake. NO ONE has figured out where the energy in a tornado is coming from after air currents start the cyclonic action. Or why the Hydrogenous (water vapor) material collected over the ocean or from humid air feeds the cyclonic engine. Regards, Frederick > >-- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 11:47:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA32697; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:44:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:44:53 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001e01bd64b0$569b9360$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" , "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:41:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"_RCe41.0.n-7.YYcBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17459 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves >Scott Little wrote: >> > >> Wow, Frank. Since a positive result from this experiment completely erases >> any evidence that the experiment has been performed, we are free to >> speculate as to how many times this experiment has been successfully >> conducted. I say 42! > >Good estimate, Scott. I was just thinking, though, after the other >night in Alabama, maybe I should avoid twister jokes! No jokes,Frank. One has to scratch the head to figure how a couple of tons of air picked up the amount of Kinetic Energy required to obliterate those homes and snuff out the lives of over 40 people in a few minutes. Regards, Frederick >Frank > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 11:49:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31213; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:38:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:38:28 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001501bd64af$5cc7e320$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:34:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"hUs2J3.0.Yd7.YScBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17458 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves >At 09:50 4/10/98 -0400, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > >>a level 5 twister that would proceed to eliminate any trace of the >>researcher and his/her apparatus from the vicinity of the effect? > >Wow, Frank. Since a positive result from this experiment completely erases >any evidence that the experiment has been performed, we are free to >speculate as to how many times this experiment has been successfully >conducted. I say 42! 42, Scott? Dominos or Doug Adam's "Trilogy"? :-) BTW. I plugged 42 into my Britannica CD ROM search engine. It came up with an answer in about two minutes. Something about articles in the Lutheran-Anglican Theology. As far as I know Adams' "Restaurant at The End of the Universe" super-computer is still workin on "what is 42?". :-) I'll have to check with that little fish in my ear to see how much progress has been made. Regards, Frederick > >Scott > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 12:06:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04441; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:02:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:02:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:56:37 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves In-Reply-To: <199804101758.MAA25383 mirage.skypoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"yf69r3.0.J51.QpcBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17460 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Vo., Please read standard antenna and optics texts.... In the mica reference the MICA does not rotate! It is a retarder, that when used with a linear polarizer, can exhibit a circularly polarized wave. On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, John Logajan wrote: > Frederick wrote: > > In circularly polarized EM waves, the tip of the electric vector describes a > > circular helix of constant amplitude about the propagation direction (axis). > > The frequency of rotation is equal to the frequency of the wave. > > I don't follow most of these threads, so if this has already been mentioned, > my apologies ... > > But, it takes pairs of photons to create the illusion of circular > polarization. One photon is orthognal (at right angles) in polarization > from the other photon *and* one photon is 90 lagging or leading in phase > of the other photon. > > If the pairs aren't quite at right angles, or the phases aren't quite > 90 degrees apart, then you get some sort of elliptical polarization. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 12:32:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29787; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:19:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <004f01bd64b4$cbf40620$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:13:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"SKmCA.0.8H7.n2dBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17461 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves > > > > Dear Vo., > > > Please read standard antenna and optics texts.... > > In the mica reference the MICA does not rotate! Never believe "standard texts", John. :-) The ANGULAR MOMENTUM of the circularized EM wave "IMPARTS a TORQUE when it falls on a a Thin Mica PLATE! "Wise is the One who knows how little he knows". That is why I'm Still a Student of Science (S.O.S.) :-) Regards, Frederick > It is a >retarder, that when used with a linear polarizer, can exhibit a circularly >polarized wave. > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, John Logajan wrote: > >> Frederick wrote: >> > In circularly polarized EM waves, the tip of the electric vector describes a >> > circular helix of constant amplitude about the propagation direction (axis). >> > The frequency of rotation is equal to the frequency of the wave. >> >> I don't follow most of these threads, so if this has already been mentioned, >> my apologies ... >> >> But, it takes pairs of photons to create the illusion of circular >> polarization. One photon is orthognal (at right angles) in polarization >> from the other photon *and* one photon is 90 lagging or leading in phase >> of the other photon. >> >> If the pairs aren't quite at right angles, or the phases aren't quite >> 90 degrees apart, then you get some sort of elliptical polarization. >> >> -- >> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - >> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - >> - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 16:26:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03809; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <005b01bd64d6$fedb3640$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "John Logajan" , "George" , "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Re:Circularly Polarized EM Waves & Vortexes Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:17:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"PcvKe1.0.Ox.xdgBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17462 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: The following exercise relates to a concept of extracting "ZPE" from the vacuum using a primed vortex: The Capacitance of Space, C = 8.84E-12 farad/meter. The Product of C and Potential V is a Constant, (+/-) 1.602E-19 Coulombs. Energy, E = 1/2 * CV^2 = .5*C^2*V^4/2(pi)eo*R or k*C^2*V^4/R As the vortex radius decreases the Capacitance C decreases as the Potential V increases as the square. Which is consistent with increase in energy as the radius decreases in the fundamental particles and black holes-singularities. Is this how cyclonic "engines" are getting their energy,("ZPE") once started? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 18:08:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08104; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:58:29 -0700 Posted-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:54:24 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <352EBD70.77A1A4B5 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:46:40 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves References: <004f01bd64b4$cbf40620$318cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ht0U72.0.Y-1.q0iBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17463 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, In my past experiences on resonating long coils, I obtained highly unconventional field shapes and coupling between coils at distance. As the phase of the EM field change faster than lambda, I think there is created some kind of stress on the field. May such configurations are suitable for minor or hypothetical aspects of EM fields such as torsion, FTL, etc. As I had not a model to analy sis the fields that I created, simply, I said these are very interesting and not fit easily to textbooks. I can transfer my knowledge on these coils to anybody who would like to investigate further. Experimenting is a very resource consuming thing and may an equip work is required for obtain a solid results as combining experiment with theory. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 18:35:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12157; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:26:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:26:45 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:27:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"CjZUJ.0.oz2.KRiBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17464 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Marinov fans: I just got back and see lots of activity. I like Frank S's cart: (+) about 600 amp total feed current | | V | <-------300 A------------O-------------300 A----------> |-------------| | N | <-- My typical stack of 4 | | Radio Shack cer. mags. |-------------| <------------- |3/4" wood | The gap from N magnet Cart scoots to left with | spacer | to the horz. line is N pole as shown |-------------| about 1/4 " | | | S | Cart scoots right when S |-------------| magnet is on top. My ball-bearing cart rolls on a glass plate - very low rolling I suggest, Frank, that you try using as thin a conductor as you can for the 600 A feed, and run it for a second or whatever. As I've said here before, I fully expect the reaction of the force moving your cart to appear on this feed wire. You should see it deflect horizontally. As for Rick M's molten solder experiments---interesting. Liquid metal MHD experiments are always difficult to interpret, because the force is on a liquid, which has its pressures and motions, and which pushes on and is pushed back by the walls. Fun, but interpretation requires solving a batch of tough equations (serious computer job). Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 19:02:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21362; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352ECDCB.108D bcpl.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:56:27 -0400 From: Drexler X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re : GIT: hunting-impaired canine? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"bSTRE.0.iD5.RwiBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17467 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > It's the "higher up the other side" thing that's causing me some problem. > If it's just to demo how the variable width races work, fine. But the claim > seems to be that you can release the ball from a level on the wide side, > and it will rise up higher on the other side. I was not able to see this > effect, nor even really any difference between starting it from one side or > the other. Cowlishaw does imply free-energy, at http://www.open.org/davidc/backgrnd.htm we find the following quote, "If I started the ball at the high spin end of the parabolic trackway, it would end up higher (with greater potential energy) on the narrow end of the track, an impossible result, but it was staring me in the face! ... I frankly looked at this project as a possible energy capture device that requires only gravity and a minimum velocity (over the loop speed) to generate motion, and then free energy! ... I may get around to doing it, but not until enough people have my work, 'cause it's a lot more dangerous to "the powers that be"!" Those nefarious "powers that be" once again suppressing free-energy technology! From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 19:03:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16871; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:57:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:57:45 -0700 Message-ID: <352ECE2B.2759 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:58:03 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"B9Atu.0.X74.OuiBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17466 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: > Frank S's cart: > > (+) about 600 amp total feed current > | > | > V > | > <-------300 A------------O-------------300 A----------> > |-------------| > | N | <-- My typical stack of 4 > | | Radio Shack cer. mags. > |-------------| > <------------- |3/4" wood | The gap from N magnet > Cart scoots to left with | spacer | to the horz. line is > N pole as shown |-------------| about 1/4 " > | | > | S | Cart scoots right when S > |-------------| magnet is on top. > > My ball-bearing cart rolls on a glass plate - very low rolling > > I suggest, Frank, that you try using as thin a conductor as you can for the > 600 A feed, and run it for a second or whatever. As I've said here before, > I fully expect the reaction of the force moving your cart to appear on this > feed wire. You should see it deflect horizontally. The apparatus is not set up now, Mike, but I think your statement is correct. If the cart was moved far away from the feed wire, right or left, there was no LATERAL force on the cart. The cart was attracted to the wire off to the left and repelled from the wire off to the right (as you would expect). The repulsion force was great enough to slide the cart away from the wire SIDEWAYS without the bearings rolling. I saw no sign of torque IN THE RING of my Marinov motor at a feed current of about 48 amps - not a hint - even though I spun the motor in both directions looking for a difference in the coast-down rate. My magnets were weak but I feel I should have had some hint of torque if the motor claims are valid. Also, I could not detect even a mv of counter EMF (as generator) when I spun the ring at 3/8 drill speed. I gave up on the motor - for now, anyway. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 19:06:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15384; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:50:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:50:52 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:44:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves In-Reply-To: <004f01bd64b4$cbf40620$318cbfa8 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"HvTSc3.0.Im3.wniBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17465 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I thought you were describing MAKING the polarization... and yes it may well impart twist.... but as a mild effect... ! :) I am not trustng the standard texts, I am trusting my own in depth work. I suggested the standard texts to introduce the novice. J On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Schnurer > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 1:05 PM > Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vo., > > > > > > Please read standard antenna and optics texts.... > > > > In the mica reference the MICA does not rotate! > > Never believe "standard texts", John. :-) > > The ANGULAR MOMENTUM of the circularized EM > wave "IMPARTS a TORQUE when it falls on a > a Thin Mica PLATE! > > "Wise is the One who knows how little he knows". > > That is why I'm Still a Student of Science (S.O.S.) :-) > > Regards, Frederick > > > > It is a > >retarder, that when used with a linear polarizer, can exhibit a circularly > >polarized wave. > > > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, John Logajan wrote: > > > >> Frederick wrote: > >> > In circularly polarized EM waves, the tip of the electric vector > describes a > >> > circular helix of constant amplitude about the propagation direction > (axis). > >> > The frequency of rotation is equal to the frequency of the wave. > >> > >> I don't follow most of these threads, so if this has already been > mentioned, > >> my apologies ... > >> > >> But, it takes pairs of photons to create the illusion of circular > >> polarization. One photon is orthognal (at right angles) in polarization > >> from the other photon *and* one photon is 90 lagging or leading in phase > >> of the other photon. > >> > >> If the pairs aren't quite at right angles, or the phases aren't quite > >> 90 degrees apart, then you get some sort of elliptical polarization. > >> > >> -- > >> - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - > >> - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > >> - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > >> > >> > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 19:33:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27453; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <007901bd64f0$c7d07ce0$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:22:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Hfnyq.0.oi6.ALjBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17468 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Hamdi Ucar To: vortex Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 7:07 PM Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves >Hi, > >In my past experiences on resonating long coils, I obtained highly unconventional field shapes and coupling between coils at distance. >As the phase of the EM field change faster than lambda, I think there is created some kind of stress on the field. May such configurations are suitable for minor or hypothetical aspects of EM fields such as torsion, FTL, etc. As I had not a model to analysis the fields that I created, simply, I said these are very interesting and not fit easily to textbooks. Hi Hamdi, Good to hear from you. The TE(1,1) (Transverse Electric) modes in a circular waveguide are essentially circularly polarized waves. For a circular waveguide the first digit is the number of full waves of the transverse field encountered around the circumference of the guide. The second digit indicates the number of half-wave patterns that exist across the diameter of the waveguide. When these exit the waveguide (circular horn termination?) the waves should be circularly polarized. The 2.45 Gigahertz standard frequency for the microwave ovens (12.236 cm) or 4.817 inches, could allow a full wave or a TE(1,2) mode. Don't ask me how you tear up your kitchen microwave to do this so you can see if these waves create an "aether vortex" and affect the speed of light down through the axis of the vortex. :-) If the Conjecture holds, there should be a "Superstring" right down the middle of the proposed vortex. > >I can transfer my knowledge on these coils to anybody who would like to investigate further. Experimenting is a very resource consuming thing and may an equip work is required for obtain a solid results as combining experiment with theory. A very generous offer Hamdi, and appreciated,but I think the centimeter wavelengths desired preclude the use of coils. Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 19:50:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00773; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:40:28 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: Vortex-L , fstenger@interlaced.net Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves In-Reply-To: <007901bd64f0$c7d07ce0$318cbfa8 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iaaQg2.0.-B.udjBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17469 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The only fun is from 60 k cps.... and DOWN! 'Cept mebbe light is OK, if you need a candel. Which brings to mind Nasrudin: Q: Why is the moon a more important source of light than the sun? A: You need the light a LOT more in the night time. Sufi. J On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamdi Ucar > To: vortex > Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 7:07 PM > Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves > > > >Hi, > > > >In my past experiences on resonating long coils, I obtained highly > unconventional field shapes and coupling between coils at distance. > >As the phase of the EM field change faster than lambda, I think there is > created some kind of stress on the field. May such configurations are > suitable for minor or hypothetical aspects of EM fields such as torsion, > FTL, etc. As I had not a model to analysis the fields that I created, > simply, I said these are very interesting and not fit easily to textbooks. > > Hi Hamdi, Good to hear from you. > > The TE(1,1) (Transverse Electric) modes in a circular waveguide are > essentially circularly polarized waves. > > For a circular waveguide the first digit is the number of full waves of the > transverse field encountered around the circumference of the guide. > > The second digit indicates the number of half-wave patterns that exist > across the diameter of the waveguide. > > When these exit the waveguide (circular horn termination?) the waves should > be circularly polarized. > > The 2.45 Gigahertz standard frequency for the microwave ovens (12.236 cm) > or 4.817 inches, could allow a full wave or a TE(1,2) mode. > > Don't ask me how you tear up your kitchen microwave to do this so you can > see if these > waves create an "aether vortex" and affect the speed of light down through > the axis of the vortex. :-) > > If the Conjecture holds, there should be a "Superstring" right down the > middle of the proposed vortex. > > > > >I can transfer my knowledge on these coils to anybody who would like to > investigate further. Experimenting is a very resource consuming thing and > may an equip work is required for obtain a solid results as combining > experiment with theory. > > A very generous offer Hamdi, and appreciated,but I think the centimeter > wavelengths desired preclude the use of coils. > > Regards, Frederick > > > >Regards, > > > >hamdi ucar > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 19:51:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26754; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:38 -0700 Message-ID: <352EDB8D.4B04 LCIA.COM> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:55:09 -0400 From: B25B LCIA.COM (RON BRENNEN) Reply-To: B25B LCIA.COM X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Bismuth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uY8e43.0.xX6.4ejBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17470 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I want to thank all who offered suggestions as to where I can buy Bismuth, it is appreciated. Ron Brennen From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 21:19:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06746; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:16:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:16:12 -0700 Message-ID: <352EEE98.1B56 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:16:24 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves References: <007901bd64f0$c7d07ce0$318cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"2gQyY2.0.Kf1.AwkBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17471 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > The 2.45 Gigahertz standard frequency for the microwave ovens (12.236 cm) > or 4.817 inches, could allow a full wave or a TE(1,2) mode. > > Don't ask me how you tear up your kitchen microwave to do this so you can > see if these > waves create an "aether vortex" and affect the speed of light down through > the axis of the vortex. :-) I just happen to have a pile of parts in my garage that was once a Litton microwave oven. It's really neat, it really is a pile of parts - looks like it's ready for the trash. But, if you plug it in, all the floresent lights in the garage light up. :-) Darn it, Fred, there you go again - getting another project to sap up my valuable time! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 23:04:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA17950; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:01:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:01:09 -0700 Message-ID: <352F0612.13FB keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:56:34 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Local Geophysical Resonances References: <352D9A29.5404 keelynet.com> <352DBB12.5E59E61A@mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f4Lbh3.0.JO4.aSmBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17472 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jack! You wrote; > Do you think that LGR may have anything to do with the capacitor > results obtained by Rick Monteverde? Quite possibly, they do refer to entropic variances in crystalline structures and there are a couple of websites which discussed 'stressed dielectrics' as unusually sensitive detectors, much of it stemming from the work of the late Jerry Gallimore. Good correlation, I hadn't considered Rick's earlier posts. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 10 23:21:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19262; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:19:26 -0700 Message-ID: <352F0A58.76B2 keelynet.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:14:48 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ?? ICIC ???Re: Local Geophysical Resonances References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qV4dY2.0.ui4.jjmBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17473 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John! ICIC is the name of the Russian scientific organization that is working on this stuff. As pointed out by Jack Smith, one of their measuring techniques appears to involve 'stressed dielectrics', i.e. entropic variations in crystalline materials, among others. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 02:29:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05250; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:30:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <351B2172.62FA interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:09:59 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: TESTS - MARINOV RELATED Resent-Message-ID: <"7lhQG2.0.uH1.PLMAr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17391 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I wrote... > Yep - nice visulization aid, Horace. ...long time ago! This just shows up??? Sheesh... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 03:09:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02500; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:07:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <352ECDCB.108D bcpl.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:05:25 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re : GIT: hunting-impaired canine? Resent-Message-ID: <"byPqV2.0.uc.b3qBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17474 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Drexler wrote: > Cowlishaw does imply free-energy, at > http://www.open.org/davidc/backgrnd.htm > we find the following quote, "If I started the > ball at the high spin end of the parabolic > trackway, it would end up higher (with > greater potential energy) on the narrow end > of the track, an impossible result, but it was > staring me in the face! Thank you. I thought I had seen that on his web site somewhere, where he makes a strong claim for it. I went back before and couldn't find the quote. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 03:39:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05206; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:34:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:34:26 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:33:41 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"B0mFh.0.GH1.eSqBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17475 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael - > Liquid metal MHD experiments are always > difficult to interpret, because the force is on > a liquid, which has its pressures and motions, > and which pushes on and is pushed back by the > walls. Fun, but interpretation requires > solving a batch of tough equations (serious > computer job). Difficult to quantify or model and calculate maybe, but if you can get certain distinct effects, it can leave little doubt as to the basic force geometry. I've chilled my postings on this stuff lately, but the latest configuration that has my attention is a simple 'Y' shaped trough. Stick electrodes in the two arms of the 'Y' and the solder surges out the end of the main stem. No magnets, just electricity. Make a 'V', and do the same, and a wave of solder climbs over the wall at the vertex of the 'V'. The stem of the 'Y' just gives that solder somewhere to go. The 'Y' can also be a 'T' and it seems to work about the same. The Graneaus make reference to Hering's work on pumping metals with electricity in their book "Newton vs. Einstein". They note articles which were published in the 1920's, I think. I might be able to look them up at the U of H library here. I'm quite convinced there are longitudinal forces, but I'm not sure what causes them. Mercury manometers like Horace contemplates might give some accurate force measurements. For instance, consider an 'H' shaped tubular glassware or plastic rig standing vertically with the tops open to air and the bottoms of the legs sealed. Mercury is filled to about halfway up the top legs above the crossbar. Electrodes are placed with one on the crossbar near the middle, and the other at a point below the crossbar level on one lower leg, maybe near the bottom. The mercury should be rise higher in the upper non-current-carrying part of that leg due to Ampere tension in the mercury below. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 04:41:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08719; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:38:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:38:44 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00df01bd653d$df0689c0$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" , Subject: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:34:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"zhi5I1.0.982.2PrBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17476 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Friday April 10 1998, 10:19 PM, Frank s. wrote: > I just happen to have a pile of parts in my garage that was once a Litton microwave oven. > Well Frank, if you want to stay with using a 55 gallon drum, you can drop the frequency to 250 megahertz and go with a TE(1,1) Mode with a sheet of glass or plastic across the bottom "horn shape" termination-skirt of the drum. Don't know about EM pollution of Ashtabula County . You might get FCC approval as a diathermy clinic operator though. :-) With enough power it Might levitate too, but you need the vertical axis gas-powered motor generator set to act as a gyro to get side-skid maneuvering. If you backfill it with Argon, you might see some interesting light-effects as you "pour the coal to it". Don't forget your white scarf and a parachute! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 05:18:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12177; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:17:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:17:38 -0700 Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <352F08F0.5DE4D5E5 mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 06:08:48 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: The Sun and Big G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"-GGUe2.0.B-2.WzrBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17477 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi All, I'm posting the following for comment. Jack Smith FALLACIES OF GRAVITATION By Wal Thornhill "Because of its swift rotation, the gaseous sun should have a latitudinal axis greater than the longitudinal, but it does not have it. The sun is 10^6 times greater than the Earth, and its day is 26 times longer than the terrestrial day; the swiftness of its rotation at its equator is over 125km per minute; at the poles its velocity approaches zero. Yet the solar disk is not oval but round: the majority of researchers even find a small excess in the longitudinal axis of the sun [ Comp.Ch.L.Poor, Gravitation versus Relativity, 1922, p98] The planets act in the same manner as the rotation of the sun, imposing a latitudinal pull on the luminary. Gravitation that acts in all directions equally leaves unexplained the spherical shape of the Sun. As we saw in the preceding section, the gases of the solar atmosphere are not under a very strong pressure, but under a very weak one. Therefore, the computation, according to which the ellipsoidity of the sun, that is lacking, should be slight, is not correct either. Since the gases are under a very low gravitational pressure, the centrifugal force of rotation must have formed quite a flat sun. Near the polar regions of the sun, streamers of the corona are observed, which prolong still more the axial length of the sun.2 ..." [Wal Thornhill] This fact remains a mystery for astronomers. If the Sun weren't spherical we would not be able to have total solar eclipses. However, if the Sun is defined in all of its important attributes by its electrical charge and electrical environment, then that includes its apparent mass and "gravitational" field. So, calculations about the degree of oblateness to be expected from Newton's laws and a universal constant, G, are meaningless. Importantly, the discovery that the Sun's magnetic field lines are not crowded together at the poles like a normal dipole magnet, but spaced out evenly, suggests that the Sun is the focus of a spherically symmetrical discharge (also to be expected from its appearance). In that case, the shape of the photosphere of the Sun will be defined and dominated by electrical forces far more powerful than gravity. .... GEOMAGNETIC FIELD AND DAY1S LENGTH By Wal Thornhill While I was searching for the references to Gentry's work on radiohalos, I came across an old news item from New Scientist of 31st March, 1977, titled "How the geomagnetic field mimics the day's length". It relates to an earlier thread on the subject of changes in the number of days in a year, which I proposed could be explained by a change in the electrical environment of the Earth. I have also proposed in The Electric Universe that the solar activity cycle is driven externally by the Sun's galactic environment. More specifically, it traces the Sun's passage across the giant Birkeland current threads which energise and define the arms of our spiral galaxy. This interesting report seems to support all of these inter-connections: "Two American workers have recently demonstrated that there is indeed a very remarkable link between the fluctuations in the length of the day taken from a sample over the years 1865 to 1961, and the small variations in the strength of the Earth's dipole between 1901 and 1960 (Journal of Geophysical Research, vol 32, no 5, p.828)." .... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 06:48:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18215; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 06:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 06:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352F73B9.3D89 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:44:25 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV References: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ygptM2.0.WS4.5GtBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17478 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > I've chilled my postings on this stuff lately, but the latest > configuration that has my attention is a simple 'Y' shaped trough. Stick > electrodes in the two arms of the 'Y' and the solder surges out the end of > the main stem. Roger on the "chill", Rick. However, remember that whenever you let a fluid conductor bend, even into a slight curve, the "kink instability" sets in to increase the amount (decrease the radius of) the bend. This is normal Lorentz stuff and happens when the B on the inside of the bend gets greater than the B on the outside of the bend. For the same reason, a circular turn of current is under tensile "hoop" stress to come apart. the "V" bends in the Hg would qualify big time! For tests in liquid metals, you need to keep the current path straight and avoid necking or bulges in the flow path. If not, then get out all those MHD equations Michael S. referred to. I like your "Y" test IF you made it an upsidedown "T" with the current in the horizontal leg and an Hg reservoir tied to one end so the level in the vertical leg could change. If there were any longitudinal force in the current leg, tension or compression, wouldn't the Hg level in the vertical leg change? You would still have a little problem at the junction because the current would bulge up a little bit into the vertical leg. When a bulge forms, I think the radial current components cause the bulge to get worse by Lorentz forces (sausage instability, I think). You would need Hg for this test though! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 07:40:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07755; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:36:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:36:28 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 06:43:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"QwmJh3.0.4v1.g_tBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17479 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:33 AM 4/11/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Michael - > > > Liquid metal MHD experiments are always > > difficult to interpret, because the force is on > > a liquid, which has its pressures and motions, > > and which pushes on and is pushed back by the > > walls. Fun, but interpretation requires > > solving a batch of tough equations (serious > > computer job). > >Difficult to quantify or model and calculate maybe, but if you can get >certain distinct effects, it can leave little doubt as to the basic force >geometry. I've chilled my postings on this stuff lately, but the latest >configuration that has my attention is a simple 'Y' shaped trough. Stick >electrodes in the two arms of the 'Y' and the solder surges out the end of >the main stem. No magnets, just electricity. Make a 'V', and do the same, >and a wave of solder climbs over the wall at the vertex of the 'V'. The >stem of the 'Y' just gives that solder somewhere to go. The 'Y' can also be >a 'T' and it seems to work about the same. > [snip] Hi Rick, Sounds like you are continuing your experiments. With some help from Frank Stenger, I've made some progress towards a computer model that should help quantify things, but things are going slow due to family problems and other diversions. (It's college crazies time at my house, and 4 year budgeting time.) Some of the analysis for that model has helped me better understand the longitudial force concepts of Marinov, and I should be able to produce a Marinov vs Lorentz comparison of torques and longitudinal forces in the planar FEA model. This should quantify and help sort out the Marinov motor and liquid metal details nicely. Let me review some past dialog, with extra comments in brackets: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _______ | N | ------------ |_______| ----------- + ___X___ - solder channel ------------ | S | ----------- |_______| | | | | side channel | | | | | | Fig. 1 - Top view [The magnet poles above are the tops of the magnets of one of your experiments. The bottoms of the magnets face the top of the trences.] The biggest problem now is the difficulty sorting out the Lorentz force which is primarily vertical in the above configuration, from the Biot longitudinal force, which pushes the solder away from the midpoint X marked above, or towards X if the magnet or current (not both) is reversed in Fig. 1. To actually determine if there is a longitudinal force, it is necessary to determine the pressure change at the *bottom* of the channel at X. Mercury in tubes is very good for this. Here is a way to do this with trenches. Reverse the magnet poles above so the upwelling occurs. Use a T solder channel, i.e. add a side channel as shown above in Fig. 1 where I modified your drawing. Or use a + shaped channel, and block the flow in one of the side channels. Set level so the side channel is uphill. Note there is no current flowing in the side channel, so it can be used as an equivalent to the mercury pressure tube. The higher up the channel the solder is pushed when the current is on, the greater the longitudinal force pushing inward in the main channel towards X. Now, what would be good would be to have the side channel much deeper than the main channel, and an insulating (ceramic) barrier, that is deeper than the main channel, placed between the main channel and the side channel, and which forces the solder to flow downwards below the normal bottom level of the main channel before entering the side channel. See Fig. 2. In other words, when the solder is welling up, the Lorentz force is pullling up, there should not be an increased pressure on the *bottom* of the main channel, despite the increased depth of solder above the bottom at point X. Only the longitudinal force should increase pressure on the bottom of the channel by pulling inwards from both sides. Fig. 2 is a cross section of Fig. 1 looking in the direction of current flow, from the (+) end. | | | | | N | | S | ------------ ------------- X ---------------------- - - - - - ------ - - - - - - - - - - - Bottom level of |Main Trench| | Side Trench of main trench ----> |...........|Bar.| ------------------ | | | | uphill ---> | ------ | | | ---------------------------- or side trench could stay at this depth Fig. 2 - Cross section at point X Another way this could be pullled off is to drill a vertical hole at X, then Drill a slanted hole from the side trench, entering the bottom of the vertical hole from the right side (above in Fig. 2), creating the barrier. The fluid that moves upwards due to the Lorentz force exerts no extra downward force on the fluid below it. The pressure below the upwelling then should be purely a function of the fluid level. Since the upwelling takes volume from the fluid, if anything, the pressure at X (the point at the bottom of the trench exactly at the center of the magnets) should be reduced. This is the beauty of the idea. For once all factors point to a actions opposed to the longitudinal force. So, a pumping action, that continually pumps fluid downward through a hole at X would be positive confirming evidence of the proposed longitudinal force. You said it yourself - you would expect the fluid in the side trough to drain to feed the swelling bump. A surprizing and counterintuitive outpouring of fluid down the hole and into the side trough would be very strong evidence for the Biot [Marinov] formula based longitudinal force I am proposing. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - End quotes. The fact you have seen such a strong outwelling into the side channnels (I assume you mean with the magnet poles opposite to Fig. 1, and like Fig. 2., with Lorentz forces produce upwelling at x) is a strong indication of longitudinal force - provided it was not from fluid flowing from the top of the Lorentz bulge at the side where the current wanes. The upwelling over the side of the barrier to the side trench I think is not conclusive (though it is a good sign), because the Lorentz force pulls up. I now think the verification problem centers on being sure there is a current going through all the upwelled fluid. It is the downward force at the intersection x (actually caused by the longitudinal force pushing inwards from the two sides, acting by an inward pull on the fluid in the legs of the T) that is conclusive. An experiment that may be (comparatively!) easy for you would be to use trenches in a + shape, with magnets as shown to produce Lorentz upwelling at the midpoint. The sides of the channel would need to be deep enough that the upwelling at x would not cause an overflow. It would be best if the non-current carrying side channels were deeper than the current carrying main channels, at least at the intersection. The intersection would then not present a kink, but a bulge. If there is flow from the current carrying channel into the side channels, despite the upwelling at x, that would be a much better indication for a longitudinal force. If it could be determined, maybe from impurities floating on the surface, that none of the fluid flow was from the top of the fluid bulge into the side channels, then it would be positve proof I think, ... but there can always be debate I suppose ... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 08:39:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00651; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:29:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: "Jerry W. Decker" cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Local Geophysical Resonances In-Reply-To: <352F0612.13FB keelynet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"V-nAi2.0.3A.guuBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17480 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Jerry and Vo., I have been as interested in dielectrics and in magnetics and have more patented material on dielectrics than magnetics, but more published papers in magnetics. I have no hard information on 'stressed dielectrics' ... can anyone help? J On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Jerry W. Decker wrote: > Hi Jack! > > You wrote; > > Do you think that LGR may have anything to do with the capacitor > > results obtained by Rick Monteverde? > > Quite possibly, they do refer to entropic variances in crystalline > structures and there are a couple of websites which discussed 'stressed > dielectrics' as unusually sensitive detectors, much of it stemming from > the work of the late Jerry Gallimore. Good correlation, I hadn't > considered Rick's earlier posts. > -- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 09:24:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06069; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F0898 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:20:33 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"lk8bE1.0.lU1.FZvBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17481 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Mount your Y in a vertical position. The height (head) of the fluid will give you an indication of the force. Hank > ---------- > From: Rick Monteverde[SMTP:monteverde worldnet.att.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 1998 3:33 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV > > Michael - > > > Liquid metal MHD experiments are always > > difficult to interpret, because the force is on > > a liquid, which has its pressures and motions, > > and which pushes on and is pushed back by the > > walls. Fun, but interpretation requires > > solving a batch of tough equations (serious > > computer job). > > Difficult to quantify or model and calculate maybe, but if you can get > certain distinct effects, it can leave little doubt as to the basic > force > geometry. I've chilled my postings on this stuff lately, but the > latest > configuration that has my attention is a simple 'Y' shaped trough. > Stick > electrodes in the two arms of the 'Y' and the solder surges out the > end of > the main stem. No magnets, just electricity. Make a 'V', and do the > same, > and a wave of solder climbs over the wall at the vertex of the 'V'. > The > stem of the 'Y' just gives that solder somewhere to go. The 'Y' can > also be > a 'T' and it seems to work about the same. > > The Graneaus make reference to Hering's work on pumping metals with > electricity in their book "Newton vs. Einstein". They note articles > which > were published in the 1920's, I think. I might be able to look them up > at > the U of H library here. > > I'm quite convinced there are longitudinal forces, but I'm not sure > what > causes them. Mercury manometers like Horace contemplates might give > some > accurate force measurements. For instance, consider an 'H' shaped > tubular > glassware or plastic rig standing vertically with the tops open to air > and > the bottoms of the legs sealed. Mercury is filled to about halfway up > the > top legs above the crossbar. Electrodes are placed with one on the > crossbar > near the middle, and the other at a point below the crossbar level on > one > lower leg, maybe near the bottom. The mercury should be rise higher in > the > upper non-current-carrying part of that leg due to Ampere tension in > the > mercury below. > > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 09:36:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22077; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:34:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:34:42 -0700 Posted-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:30:49 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <352F9B42.664AA106 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:33:06 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Using ICQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JT2MD1.0.nO5.XkvBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17482 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, I loaded the ICQ, a kind of chat/online communication program/service, seem having very useful features. May this tools could be used to extend/speed up vortex communication and for fun. My nike name is "hamdix" Site is http://www.mirabilis.com/ Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 10:49:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA31338; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:48:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:48:04 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <7ba046c1.352faca9 aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:47:19 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"87ekN1.0.Zf7.JpwBr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17483 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Just a short note to let you know how thing are progressing. Still no H2 supply. Problems getting the proper pressure regulator. I have been fighting a really pesky vacuum leak in the part of the system where I must have absolutly no leaks at all. I think I have found the problem. The valves I am using have, it seems, leaks at the neoprene packing at the valve stem. On one side of the valve, when it is closed air can leak in around the packing and into the system. Simply reversing the valve position will put the "good" side of the valve in the manifold section that must maintain a good no leak condition. I went out this morning and bought a couple of new valves and silver soldered them into the system. System is pumping down now and it looks good so far. The leak I had was really bad; >10 torr per minute! I couldent figure out why some sections of the manifold would hold vacuum steady for more than a week and other sections would lose almost all vacuum in eight to ten hours. Same valves in all sections but looking at the valve construction revealed what was happening. Lets hope this works. I would have liked to buy some precision valves to build this thing but moneys tight and I have to make do with what I have. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 11:42:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24945; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:38:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000501bd6578$4f7090e0$218cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" , "Francis J. Stenger" Subject: Roll Out The Barrel Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:33:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"NuUmW1.0.d56.CYxBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17484 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: OK,Frank S. The current excitation of the 55 gallon drum waveguide-resonant cavity will require your capacitor bank. (aka. The Ashtabula Leveler). Seems that you can pulse a current loop sticking into the barrel and this will excite the guide-cavity to "ring" at the 250 megahertz TE(1,1) mode, at the pulse rate that you can muster. :-) A conductor passed through a hole in the end-center of the barrel,then looped around and attached to a "beefed up" portion of the barrel should suffice. With a pulse rate limited only by local power capability and how fast you can run,will determine the "Rep-Rate". :-) This approach should eliminate any requirement for VHF-UHF generator stuff. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 13:45:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20504; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:41:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <352F73B9.3D89 interlaced.net> References: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:38:50 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"TYxVN2.0.G05.TLzBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17485 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > However, remember that whenever you let a > fluid conductor bend, even into a slight curve, > the "kink instability" sets in to increase the > amount (decrease the radius of) the bend. > This is normal Lorentz stuff and happens > when the B on the inside of the bend gets > greater than the B on the outside of the bend. Yes, this is what I believe is occurring. But it does seem to result in a real longitudinal force. Sorry about the long post, but here goes. Consider a trench in the shape of a resistor symbol. No magnets are used, just current through the zigzags from one end to the other. Metal will bulge up in the outside of the vertexes, and dimple down on the inside as you would expect. Notice that there is a force vector across the zigzags in the direction of the *net* current flow from one end of the arrangement to the other. This is the "longitudinal force". It's not fundamentally longitudinal with the current, but some force does net out that way under this specific geometric arrangement. Now confine the metal in the channels by having the resistor symbol path formed instead by an insulating tube filled with the metal. The forces are probably still there, but we can't see them acting to bulge metal out. Now consider a large number of these zigzag tubes placed very close to one another, all oriented lengthwise but perhaps jumbled in transverse 'polarity' - the planes that the zigzags lie on can be random not only between individual tubes but between zigzags along the same tube. They can even be moving and swiveling as current flows. Keep the nice 90 degree corners though. Now make the whole bundle really really small and tightly compacted, but keep the same length. Now have we changed anything fundamental about the forces on the metal inside the tubes? Is there still a net longitudinal force showing up between the ends of the bundle? I think after all the cancellations and reinforcements are summed up, you'd net pretty close the value for a single zigzag path at least in proportion if not magnitude. I think this is what might be happening is straight real-world conductors. I'm seeing indications of this net force in straight channels when the metal tries to drain out of the section between electrodes and bulge up in the regions behind them. Not really sure about why it happens though, because as you say there can always be macro scale areas of pinching or sausage instability. But then I also assume that there will *always* be such activity in any conductor across any scale down to elemental charges. As I said before, do individual current elements - the individual charges themselves - ever all flow along perfectly straight paths in *any* ordinary warm conductor? An implication of that is that in certain non-warm zero-resistance conductors, or perhaps even in extremely thin warm conductors, these longitudinal forces are very tiny or missing altogether. An experiment for that could be to examine carefully any manometer results across as wide a temperature range as possible. Thermal activity causing a greater percentage of off-axis excursions by charge carriers should increase the magnitude of the forces coincident with the net current direction. Convenient too since mercury has been implicated in thermometers. Again, sorry about the bandwidth, but I had to get some of this off my chest. I wonder if it's really just as simple as zigzag paths. Somebody has to have covered this somewhere, but in my limited survey I haven't seen it. And I hate to think that Marinov may have committed suicide over it. As someone once said, "she ain't worth it". - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 13:56:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21957; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:45:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:42:13 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"l1HzF2.0.-M5.FPzBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17486 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > In other words, when the solder is welling up, > the Lorentz force is pullling up, there should > not be an increased pressure on the *bottom* > of the main channel, despite the increased > depth of solder above the bottom at point X. > Only the longitudinal force should increase > pressure on the bottom of the channel by > pulling inwards from both sides. This time I think I understand what you are getting at since I have been playing with side channels. I'll try this config when I get the chance to do more of these experiments. I have some Kao-wool(?) ceramic refractory fiber blanket material I can use as reinforcing in plaster, and I think this will work to cast nice clean channels for these metal experiments. I've tried that technique before for aluminum casting and the shells survive for a while without cracking as long as the shrink of the cooling metal doesn't cross any interlocks in the mold geometry. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 13:57:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22785; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:48:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <352F73B9.3D89 interlaced.net> References: <35228B02.11D2 interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:45:23 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"zQ-Qo2.0.wZ5.RSzBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17487 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > I like your "Y" test IF you made it an > upsidedown "T" with the current in the > horizontal leg and an Hg reservoir tied to one > end so the level in the vertical leg could > change. If there were any longitudinal force in > the current leg, tension or compression, > wouldn't the Hg level in the vertical leg > change? I'll try this one. Better maybe with two upside down 'T's touching so the crossmembers form a continuous channel. That way there's two side channels for comparison. This is the same essential geometry as the 'H' I was trying to describe before. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 14:11:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24959; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:56:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F0898 xch-cpc-02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:52:12 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"bzUno1.0.f56.RZzBr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17488 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank - > Mount your Y in a vertical position. The > height (head) of the fluid will give you an > indication of the force. Won't work, the metal isn't elastic. :) The 'H' or double upside down 'T' arrangements might do the trick though, as they provide an extra reservoir to draw metal from if it wants to rise up in the upright leg between electrodes. A nagging question though: why should the metal want to cross past an electrode between the uprights to get into the active leg? Presumably there's repulsion there equal to the force trying to raise metal up the leg. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 15:53:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17528; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980411185214.00651310 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:52:17 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: 55 gal waveguide Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"8CwIq.0.iH4.3G_Br" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17489 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Having made substantial RF circuits with 55gal "waveguide", consider the following. 1) Grind the hell out of the barrel lips; use copper flashing to bind the barrels. My barrels came with clamps to affix the lids; these worked pretty well to attach two barrels end to end. The flashing just ensures good electrical connection. Clamp over the flashing. 2) I used a old Philco signal generator to drive the circuits; along with mercury relays to chop the RF. Don't even bother with the cap bank; risetime of those electrolytics are orders of magnitude off the mark. I would use a piece of 50ohm cable the quarter wavelength of the frequency in question, charged from a high impedence DC supply, switched to the exciting element with a mercury relay. This will get you where you want to be for less than 10 bucks... A good FET would do as well, whatevers on hand? But best for risetime is the relay. 3) I used CT-3 current transformers with short pieces of wire stuck thru holes in the barrels for signal sensing. The wire passing through the CT and grounding to the barrel. These things are painfully expensive, I'd likely try surface mount 1 ohm resistors as current sense resistors on the cheap. Getting the signal to your scope is another story. By the way, why are you doing this? KPN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 16:21:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21688; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:07:41 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804112307.QAA12309 slave2.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: RE: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"QfCdt3.0.oI5.wW_Br" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17490 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hank wrote: >Rick > Mount your Y in a vertical position. The height (head) of the >fluid will give you an indication of the force. > >Hank Good idea, Hank. I've been reading this thread rather lightly, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. From what I understand, Rick, you are trying to prove the existence of a longitudinal force, and you are using liquid metals, in particular, Hg. I worked in a couple of photolabs, back when I was but a mere pratt, and I just remembered some of the cautionary tales about handling mercury. I'm sure you are aware of them as well, but not everyone may be. Mercury was used as a developing agent in the early days of photography. It has enough of an evaporation rate even at STP that care is needed to avoid the inhalation of the vapor. The early photographers were exposed to especially high concentrations of the vapor, because they actually accelerated the evaporation rate by heating the mercury up. Many of the pioneers of the science of photography, and many of the artists who merely practiced the art, died prematurely as a direct result of the inhalation of the Hg vapor. It occurs to me that since the evaporation rate of any substance will be accelerated by both movement and heat, and both of these things are likely to be happening to some degree in your proposed (or is it already built) testbed, it might be a good time to mention this, if it hasn't been mentioned before. Have you taken the adequate precautionary measures to prevent the ingestion of the vapor? -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 17:02:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02069; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:01:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Expriment report - Marinov vs Lorentz Resent-Message-ID: <"odg_W3.0.DW.HD0Cr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17491 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MARINOV VS LORENTZ - THE EXPERIMENT CONFIGURATIONS The experiment diagrammed in Fig. 1 was performed to look for evidence of the Marinov/Biot/Ampere longitudinal force, due to forces between current elements, which should be inward from both L and R toward M: L M R | | | | | | | | | | | | |~| |~| |~| | | X | | X | | i --> ->---=======================-------->----------- "rail" very long X ---->-c-- X both directions | O O | a ^ S v b X | O O | X --d-<---- -->-- - wire with current direction indicated by > ===== - thin horizontal tube filled with mercury | | - vertical column |~| - mercury level X - magnetic field into page O - magnetic field out of page Fig. 1 - Top view of Marinof/Biot/Ampere vs Lorentz/Biot-Savart test The test was performed as shown in a horizontal manner, with the mercury filled tubes L, M and R, bent around, and brought together into a vertical column for mercury level comparison. A 1 mm engraved plastic drafting scale was mounted next to the three adjacent columns. Reading accuracy was about 1/4 mm with strong magifier used. Some interpretation of the height was required for dropping columns due to a sticking mercury meniscus. The center of the column would fall, and even momentarily bob up and down, but the apparent side level remained fixed. The columns had to be examined from the top to determine the degree of concavity of the mercury surface. The tubes were all 1/8" Tygon with 1/32" walls. The gaps between the takoffs for L and M, and M and R, were about 6". Nichrome electrodes were used, and inserted into the tubing at the bends for the takeoffs of L and M. They were sealed using Automotive Goop. The magnet used was 1" x 1" x 2" 35 MgO, with poles in the long axis. Current was initially left to right in Fig. 1, and was about 12 A, supplied by 2 6 V Duracell MN908 drycells in parallel. In addition an experiment was done to imitate Rick Moteverde's solder experiment. _______ | X X X | ------------ |_______| ----------- + _______ - solder channel ------------ | O O O | ----------- |_______| | | | | side channel | | | | | | X - magnetic field into page O - magnetic field out of page Fig. 2 - Top view of opposing magnets on top test Looking at the same experiment from the left side, from which the current flows: | | | | | N | | S | ------------ ------------- ------------------------------ | x | M ---> ------------------------------ x - current into page Fig. 3 - View from left side of opposing magnets on top test A follow up experiment was done to imitate Rick Moteverde's solder experiment, but simulating a solder channel M that goes down away from the magnet pairs, i.e. so the magnetic forces are balanced, or symmetrical, with respect to side channel M: _______ | S | | N | |_______| ---------------------------------- + L R - solder channel ---------------- --------------- | | | | | | side channel | | | M | | | X - magnetic field into page O - magnetic field out of page Following in Fig. 5 is the view of Fig. 4 from the positive current end: Fig. 4 - Top view of balanced opposing magnets test ------------ | | | S N | | | ------------ ------------------------------ | x | M ---> ------------------------------ ------------ | | | N S | | | ------------ x - current into page Fig. 5 - View from left side of balanced opposing magnet test RESULTS Experiment 1. The result of the experiment in Fig. 1 was that the mercury dropped about 1 mm in column M relative to columns L and R. Experiment 2. The current was reversed and the opposite result was obtained, column M rose about 1 mm relative. Reversing the magnet polarity also reversed the column movement, as expected. Reversing both gave the same results as for Fig. 1. Experiment 3. To increase the magnetic field, and observe the maximum possible Lorentz effect with the configuration, the magnet was moved directly above the T connection. With + current from the left, as in Fig. 1, column M rose about 4 mm relative to the other columns. Experiment 4. The same level difference of 4 mm was reached but in the opposite direction, when the current was reversed. This clearly showed a bi-directional MHD pumping effect. Experiment 5. The same test was run without the magnets present, with no change in level discernable. Experiment 6. The experiment portrayed in Fig. 2 and Fig. 3 produced a 1.5 mm increase in height in column M, relative to L and R. Experiment 7. The current of Experiment 7 was reversed and produced a 2.0 mm height differential between column M, relative to L and R, increasing the relative height of column M by a very certain and clear difference of about 0.5 mm over the result in experiment 6, despite the difficulty of reading the height of the columns on the adjacent mm scale. The leads were quickly reversed and the change of about 0.5 mm was clear. Experiment 8. The balanced, symmetric, split magnet configuration in Fig. 4 and Fig. 5 was used. A 2 mm reduction in height of column M from that of columns L and R was obtained. Experiment 9. Experiment 8 was repeated with the current right to left. A 2 mm increase in height of column M from that of columns L and R was obtained. BRIEF ANALYSIS OF SETUP AND RESULTS Let's first consider Fig. 1 from a Lorentz, Biot-Savart perspective. In Fig. 1, the magnetic fields are directed as shown by the downward arrow X and the upward arrows O. The Lorentz (magnetohydrodymanic) force in the mercury is in the direction of the exit tube M. It adds to the fluid pressure from the proposed longitudinal Marinov/Biot/Ampere force. When the current is reversed, however, it is opposed. Now, with current left to right in the rail, as shown in Fig. 1, Biot/Ampere current segment analysis shows the effects of the two opposing direction current segments a and b of the magnet and the leg c all will cause a pressure increase in the mercury in the center column. Only the more remote leg d opposes the compression. Since there is no lateral brush current to deal with, and the Biot analysis shows a clear compression force toward the central column, and Lorentz shows an opposing force at the intersection to column M, the test is a certain positive for the longitudial force if the flow is opposed to the Lorentz direction. If the longitudinal force exists, with the rail current directed to the right as shown, columns L and R should drop, and column M should rise. The difference in column height can be used to measure the force. If the current direction is reversed, column M should drop below level, and columns L and R rise. To the degree there is no change in level from one current direction to the other, it is proved the longitudinal force does not exist at a magnitude of that proportion. Experiments 1 and 2 provide no indication of a longitudinal force, but are limited in resolution. Experiments 3 and 4 indicate a good ability to determine Lorentz MHD force magnitudes with the arrangement. Experiment 5 indicates no measureable self induced forces from the current due to pinching etc. Experiments 6 and 7 indicate that, when the MHD pumping idirection is at right angles to the lateral exit M, regardless of direction, there is a pressure outlet at M and pumping into M occurs. It appears the pumping action is not as effective when pumping away from the saddle shaped magnetic field (in Experiment 6) as when pulling into the saddle shape (Experiment 7.) The 0.5 mm pressure difference between runs appears to be due to the amount of leakage at the exit M due to the field geometry slanting at the exit M and providing more opportuinty for vortex formation and lost pumping head, while he saddle shape traps and pulls the fluid into the non current zone. Experiments 8 and 9 are the best experiments for determining the presence or absence of a longitudinal force. Since they show equal but opposite pressure drops with current reversal, indicating a total correspondence to the expected Lorentz based MHD pumping, this experiment indicates no longtudinal force within the experimental resolution. CONCLUSION No evidence was found for a longitudinal force. Evidence was obtained that indicated a longitudinal force, if it exists, must be small in comparison to the Lorentz force in these circumstances. It appears Rick Monteverde's solder experiment results are due to MHD pumping. Quantitative analysis using finite element analysis (FEA) are required to determine the quantitative expectations for these experiments in order to reach definitive results. The error in the experiments was large due to a possible error of about 1/4 mm in reading the column movements. Relative motion, however, was determined with certainty. Further, within the experimental accuracy, it does not appear there is likely to exist a longitudinal force, of the type described by Marinov, with sufficient strength to drive a Marinov motor with ordinary construction with an operating current of 20 amps. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 22:50:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28180; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:49:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:49:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980412004930.00927100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:49:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <7ba046c1.352faca9 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kuuAx3.0.3u6.EN5Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17492 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:47 PM 4/11/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: >Lets hope this works. I would have liked to buy some precision valves >to build this thing but moneys tight and I have to make do with what I >have. Good valves are expensive! Nupro bellows-sealed valves start at about $100/ea for the smallest ones and go up rapidly! Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 22:52:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28268; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:50:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:50:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:56:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV & thanks Scott Resent-Message-ID: <"H5caw1.0.Yv6.9O5Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17493 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:42 AM 4/11/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > In other words, when the solder is welling up, > > the Lorentz force is pullling up, there should > > not be an increased pressure on the *bottom* > > of the main channel, despite the increased > > depth of solder above the bottom at point X. > > Only the longitudinal force should increase > > pressure on the bottom of the channel by > > pulling inwards from both sides. > >This time I think I understand what you are getting at since I have been >playing with side channels. I'll try this config when I get the chance to >do more of these experiments. I have some Kao-wool(?) ceramic refractory >fiber blanket material I can use as reinforcing in plaster, and I think >this will work to cast nice clean channels for these metal experiments. >I've tried that technique before for aluminum casting and the shells >survive for a while without cracking as long as the shrink of the cooling >metal doesn't cross any interlocks in the mold geometry. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI The above may not be worth doing any longer, since the mercury test failed to indicate anything. This looks like a lot of work. On the other hand, you use much more current with the solder, so maybe you would get different results. Right now I'm really down on LF, as you can imagine (The pre-glow, as Scott calls it, is gone again!), but am still interested in finishing the Marinof vs Lorentz planar FEA model. Thanks much to Scott for sending the mercury. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 22:56:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29497; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:54:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:54:28 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:44:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Renewable Energy Rally In-Reply-To: <000d01bd493c$8fcbb780$b0efd4cf natvita.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"BIg0t3.0.iC7.IS5Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17494 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Navita, Will you post the proceedings? On Sat, 7 Mar 1998, natvita wrote: > Kirlionics 26th March 1998.. > Visit the First New Zealand workshop of the human atmosphere > and approaches to Applied Bioelectrography > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 11 23:17:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA32352; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:15:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:15:57 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:09:45 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Valves....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980412004930.00927100 mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hfELA2.0.Qv7.Sm5Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17495 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, You might try making a Teflon fix for the neoprene ... either an overlayer of tape, or cut one from stock. You might also try Apeizon [barnad name] or silicone equivalent ... high vacuum grease ... or teflon and high vacuum grease. ALSO: HVAC, or AC equipment may be good source of vacuum valves at reasonable cost.... see the local repair folks and maybe find 'shop queens' ... valves that are discontinued or cosmetically bad.... also chck the local universities and maybe post to vo for folks in silicon valley for cast off valves. Check old Scientific American Amateur Scientist articles for the way to make HV valves, see the index to find correct articles. HV equipment manufacturers may have shop queens for your purposes. J On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Scott Little wrote: > At 01:47 PM 4/11/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: > > >Lets hope this works. I would have liked to buy some precision valves > >to build this thing but moneys tight and I have to make do with what I > >have. > > Good valves are expensive! Nupro bellows-sealed valves start at about > $100/ea for the smallest ones and go up rapidly! > > > Scott Little > EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 > 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) > little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 01:50:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA03311; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:48:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804112307.QAA12309 slave2.aa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:45:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: RE: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"6Mrlt.0.fp.3_7Cr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17496 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Michael - > Have you taken the adequate precautionary > measures to prevent the ingestion of the > vapor? Yes - abstinence works perfectly. I avoid the stuff altogether by using molten solder. Horace tried using mercury. Other advantages to solder over mercury: it's a lot less dense, so it might react more easily and visibly to phenomena which tends to move around, especially for making bulges and so forth. It isn't particularly toxic (it's lead free plumbing solder and I'm wearing protective gear), so I'm not afraid to crank up the current and make some sparks. Also the slag skins and flux on the surface help show movements within the fluid. I'm sticking with solder for a while, no pun intended. I'll post if I get anything interesting. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 02:43:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08594; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:42:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:41:00 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Expriment report - Marinov vs Lorentz Resent-Message-ID: <"-ZE2s3.0.C62.To8Cr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17497 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > No evidence was found for a longitudinal force. Using heavy mercury at 12 amperes, I'm not surprised. Using lighter density solder and a couple of hundred amps, the effects are still rather subtle (without magnets), but I see something there. And I agree with you that what I'm seeing is basically MHD from Lorentz forces. But I think we have a difference of opinion over whether such forces exist in plain straight sections. I think they probably do, but I qualify that by adding that there really is no such thing as a truly straight section in the everyday world. Action in straight paths is also the weakest for observation. My other geometries and experiments are mainly to magnify and illuminate the principles, and are really simply models. I'll work on this some more and post if I see anything worthwhile. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 03:50:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11934; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 03:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 03:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:54:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Expriment report - Marinov vs Lorentz Resent-Message-ID: <"ePCJR.0.Kw2.0n9Cr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17498 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:41 PM 4/11/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > No evidence was found for a longitudinal force. > >Using heavy mercury at 12 amperes, I'm not surprised. Using lighter density >solder and a couple of hundred amps, the effects are still rather subtle >(without magnets), but I see something there. And I agree with you that >what I'm seeing is basically MHD from Lorentz forces. But I think we have a >difference of opinion over whether such forces exist in plain straight >sections. I think I have miscommunicated. In discussions/experiments of Marinov, Biot, Biot-Savart and Ampere, I am not advocating a position pro or con on the existence of longitudinal force. What I am attempting to do is demonstrate the existence or non-existence of current segment force following the designated "alternate" rules by current sections, i.e. by applying the not equal and opposite, and conservation of momentum violating, force, when taken by element via: Biot-Savart dB = (u0 i/(4Pi)) (dl sin(theta))/r^2 Followed by Lorentz: F/q = E + I x B, where I = i'L' Vs the equal and opposite, but conservation of momentum violating, force between particles approach of Marinov: Fm = (u0 q q')/(8 Pi r^3) {V'*R)V + (V*R)V' - 2(V*V')R} Vs the equal and opposite and torque-free Ampere-Biot force: F = k(il)(i'l')/r^2 There are others I believe, but I have not delt with them in discussion or experiment. In the laws above, except by Lorentz/Biot-Savart, you get longitudinal forces on straight current segments *by calculation*, not by opinion. An opinion that the LF exists is an opinion that implies some now not accepted law exists, as Lorentz clearly produces no such force, but the nature of other laws than those above I have not dealt with here. >I think they probably do, but I qualify that by adding that there >really is no such thing as a truly straight section in the everyday world. I don't think the crooked path matters by Biot-Savart or Maxwell. The net flow of charge, caused by E + I x B, is all that matters. If a crooked path matters, then I suspect we are dealing with new science, a new law, unless I am just missing something. The purpose of a comparative FEA model is to quantify things in order to clearly demonstrate the success/failure of the proposed laws in situations where they conflict. In a qualitative way, I think that has already been accomplished, but a quantitative approach can definitely and clearly demonstrate one way or the other, and even elucidate prior experiments. I think in a much bigger way, and maybe in a direct way, all this has been done before, in that there is an awful lot of success stories in the application of Biot-Savart, Lorentz, and the all encompasing Maxwell. What is missing, I think, is a tool to comparatively analyse the occasional anecdote or experiment from the various perspectives. >Action in straight paths is also the weakest for observation. My other >geometries and experiments are mainly to magnify and illuminate the >principles, and are really simply models. I'll work on this some more and >post if I see anything worthwhile. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI You are doing neat things. Keep it up! Meanwhile I'll hush up and get back to the grind. 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 04:19:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13775; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:17:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <002801bd6603$dc8cec40$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" , "Keith Nagel" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 05:11:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"x6IU81.0.9N3.FBACr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17499 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: It can be shown that a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop at the Earth's surface can exert a 379 newton force of attraction or repulsion against the Earth.(or if you prefer, a milliamp through a kilometer current loop,etc.) :-) However, it can also be shown that if this is so,D.C. power lines wouldn't require poles. :-) An "Energizer" battery in a copper hula-hoop, perhaps? Circular pulses in 55 gallon drums or municipal-sized water tanks? Suitable pulses on two-wire transmission lines or "flat" transmission lines? Superconducting current loops? Relativity is stubborn, ain't it? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 04:37:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05456; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:36:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:36:27 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 03:43:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Experiment report - Marinov vs Lorentz (corrections) Resent-Message-ID: <"yA0Pu2.0.AL1.vSACr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17500 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: MARINOV VS LORENTZ - THE EXPERIMENT CONFIGURATIONS The experiment diagrammed in Fig. 1 was performed to look for evidence of the Marinov/Biot/Ampere longitudinal force, due to forces between current elements, which should be inward from both L and R toward M: L M R | | | | | | | | | | | | |~| |~| |~| | | X | | X | | <-- i -<---=======================--------<----------- "rail" very long X ----<-c-- X both directions | O O | a v ^ b X | O O | X --d->---- -->-- - wire with current direction indicated by > ===== - thin horizontal tube filled with mercury | | - vertical column |~| - mercury level X - magnetic field into page O - magnetic field out of page Fig. 1 - Top view of Marinof/Biot/Ampere vs Lorentz/Biot-Savart test The test was performed as shown in a horizontal manner, with the mercury filled tubes L, M and R, bent around, and brought together into a vertical column for mercury level comparison. A 1 mm increment engraved plastic drafting scale was mounted next to the three adjacent columns. Reading accuracy was about 1/4 mm with strong magnifier used. Some interpretation of the height was required for dropping columns due to a sticking edge of the mercury meniscus. The center of the column would fall, and even momentarily bob up and down, but the apparent side level remained fixed. The columns had to be examined from the top to determine the degree of concavity of the mercury surface. The tubes were all 1/8" Tygon with 1/32" walls. The gaps between the takoffs for L and M, and M and R, were about 6". Nichrome electrodes were used, and inserted into the tubing at the bends for the takeoffs of L and M. They were sealed using Automotive Goop. The magnet used was 1" x 1" x 2" 35 MgO, with poles in the long axis. It was composed of 4 1" x 1" x 1/2" magnets, which were broken into two 1" cubes for the later experiments. Current was initially right to left in Fig. 1, and was about 12 A, supplied by two 6 V Duracell MN908 drycells in parallel. In addition an experiment was done to imitate Rick Moteverde's solder experiment. In all the following figures the 1" cube magnets are separated by a 1/4" piece of wood: _______ | X X X | ------------ |_______| ----------- + _______ - solder channel ------------ | O O O | ----------- |_______| | | | | side channel | | | | | | X - magnetic field into page O - magnetic field out of page Fig. 2 - Top view of opposing magnets on top test Looking at the same experiment from the left side, from which the current flows: | | | | | N | | S | ------------ ------------- ------------------------------ | x | M ---> ------------------------------ x - current into page Fig. 3 - View from left side of opposing magnets on top test A follow up experiment was done to imitate Rick Moteverde's solder experiment, but simulating a solder channel M that goes down away from the magnet pairs, i.e. so the magnetic forces are balanced, or symmetrical, with respect to side channel M. The paths marked "solder channel" below were replaced with mercury filled tygon tubing: X X X X X _______ X | S | X | N | |_______| ---------------------------------- + L O O O O R - solder channel ---------------- --------------- O | O | O | | | | side channel | | | M | | | X - magnetic field into page O - magnetic field out of page Fig. 4 - Top view of balanced opposing magnets test Following in Fig. 5 is the view of Fig. 4 from the positive current end: ------------ | | | S N | | | ------------ ------------------------------ | x | M ---> ------------------------------ ------------ | | | N S | | | ------------ x - current into page Fig. 5 - View from left side of balanced opposing magnet test RESULTS Experiment 1. The result of the experiment in Fig. 1 was that the mercury dropped about 1 mm in column M relative to columns L and R. Experiment 2. The current was reversed and the opposite result was obtained, column M rose about 1 mm relative. Reversing the magnet polarity also reversed the column movement, as expected. Reversing both gave the same results as for Fig. 1. Experiment 3. To increase the magnetic field, and observe the maximum possible Lorentz effect with the configuration, the magnet was moved directly above the T connection. With + current from the left, as in Fig. 1, column M rose about 4 mm relative to the other columns. Experiment 4. The same level difference of 4 mm was reached but in the opposite direction, when the current was reversed. This clearly showed a bi-directional MHD pumping effect. Experiment 5. The same test was run without the magnets present, with no change in level discernable. Experiment 6. The experiment portrayed in Fig. 2 and Fig. 3 produced a 1.5 mm increase in height in column M, relative to L and R. Experiment 7. The current of Experiment 7 was reversed and produced a 2.0 mm height differential between column M, relative to L and R, increasing the relative height of column M by a very certain and clear difference of about 0.5 mm over the result in experiment 6, despite the difficulty of reading the height of the columns on the adjacent mm scale. The leads were quickly reversed and the change of about 0.5 mm was clear. Experiment 8. The balanced, symmetric, split magnet configuration in Fig. 4 and Fig. 5 was used. A 2 mm reduction in height of column M from that of columns L and R was obtained. Experiment 9. Experiment 8 was repeated with the current right to left. A 2 mm increase in height of column M from that of columns L and R was obtained. BRIEF ANALYSIS OF SETUP AND RESULTS Let's first consider Fig. 1 from a Lorentz, Biot-Savart perspective. In Fig. 1, the magnetic fields are directed as shown by the downward arrow X and the upward arrows O. The Lorentz (magnetohydrodymanic) force in the mercury is in the direction away from of the exit tube M. It subtracts from the fluid pressure from the proposed longitudinal Marinov/Biot/Ampere force. When the current is reversed, however, it adds. Now, with current right to left in the rail, as shown in Fig. 1, Biot/Ampere current segment analysis shows the effects of the two opposing direction current segments a and b of the magnet and the leg c all will cause a pressure increase in the mercury in the center column. Only the more remote leg d opposes the compression. Since there is no lateral brush current to deal with, and the Biot analysis shows a clear compression force toward the central column, and Lorentz shows an opposing force at the intersection to column M, the test is a certain positive for the longitudial force if the flow is opposed to the Lorentz direction. If the longitudinal force exists, with the rail current directed to the right as shown, columns L and R should drop, and column M should rise. The difference in column height can be used to measure the force. If the current direction is reversed, column M should drop below level, and columns L and R rise. To the degree there is no change in level from one current direction to the other, it is proved the longitudinal force does not exist at a magnitude of that proportion. Experiments 1 and 2 provide no indication of a longitudinal force, but are limited in resolution. Experiments 3 and 4 indicate a good ability to determine Lorentz MHD force magnitudes with the arrangement. Experiment 5 indicates no measureable self induced forces from the current due to pinching etc. Experiments 6 and 7 indicate that, when the MHD pumping direction is at right angles to the lateral exit M, regardless of direction, there is a pressure outlet at M and pumping into M occurs. It appears the pumping action is not as effective when pumping away from the saddle shaped magnetic field (in Experiment 6) as when pulling into the saddle shape (Experiment 7.) The 0.5 mm pressure difference between runs appears to be due to the amount of leakage at the exit M due to the field geometry slanting at the exit M and providing more opportuinty for vortex formation and lost pumping head, while the saddle shape traps and pulls the fluid into the non current zone. Experiments 8 and 9 are the best experiments for determining the presence or absence of a longitudinal force. Since they show equal but opposite pressure drops with current reversal, indicating a total correspondence to the expected Lorentz based MHD pumping, this experiment indicates no longtudinal force within the experimental resolution. CONCLUSION No evidence was found for a longitudinal force. Evidence was obtained that indicated a longitudinal force, if it exists, must be small in comparison to the Lorentz force in these circumstances. It appears Rick Monteverde's solder experiment results are due to MHD pumping. Quantitative analysis using finite element analysis (FEA) are required to determine the quantitative expectations for these experiments in order to reach definitive results. The error in the experiments was large due to a possible error of about 1/4 mm in reading the column movements. Relative motion, however, was determined with certainty. Further, within the experimental accuracy, it does not appear there is likely to exist a longitudinal force, of the type described by Marinov, with sufficient strength to drive a Marinov motor with ordinary construction with an operating current of 20 amps. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 10:03:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00129; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:54:37 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <983e2dd6.3530f0db aol.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:50:34 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"lAeLU2.0.s1.A7FCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17501 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Well Scott, you were right about using larger diameter copper tubing for the vacuum system. The leak I thought I had found and fixed three times was still there after replacing various valves, resweating fittings and even replacing vacuum guages. I was so frustrated after the latest effort on Saturday morning and still had a leak I decided to completely rebuild the entire vacuum manifold. I bought a ten foot length of 1/2 inch type L copper pipe ($7 bucks), a couple of handfulls of fittings, 200 psi valves, and, at the suggestion of one of the vortexians (don't remember who, but thanks), silver solder. Took me most of Saturday but it's almost fully assembled and sweated together. Just a few remaining fittings to get at WW Grainger on Monday that were not available at Home Depot. The larger rigid pipe is _much_ easier to work with. The silver solder was also much easier to use than the 50/50 tin lead stuff. Maybe it's a good thing I have had this time to fully prove out the vacuum system while waiting on the very slow gas supplier. It would have been a disaster if these leaks occurred during the actual experiment run. I was doing vacuum leak testing every day, pumping down for five hours then closing off all valves during the night and keeping a record of the pressure changes over a 10 hour period. Dr. Mitchell Swartz is quite correct in saying "science is hard". He is ever so correct, but it's also great fun. I am having a ball doing this. I have also constructed a temperature sensor (now don't jump me for this), out of a +-1% Radio Shack thermistor. I used a sintered bronze shoe about an inch long. Bored out one end to accept the thermister and machined the other end to fit the tube curvature. The thermister I epoxied in place and a small coil spring holds the gadget tightly in place on the tube. (works better than using wire Scott, and it wont bust the tube as much either when I twist the wire a little bit tighter) The bronze shoe, about an inch in length put the thermister far enough (I hope) from the point of contact with the tube to keep it in the temperature range of the thermister. If not, then a longer piece of bronze rod. A quick prelimenary test with the arc running at full power in (about) 25 micron vacuum, got the thermister to 102.3 C. It's very easy to also position the thermister shoe to a position on the tube to a spot where it wont exceed the temperature limit. I'll find this during formal temperature calibration if Evelio Passafuma ever gets me my H2. Stay tuned. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 10:24:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03757; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <005001bd6634$4e8ae560$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Scott Little" Cc: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:59:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"roIos.0.pv.OLFCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17502 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: Frederick J. Sparber Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 8:56 AM Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma >At 05:11 AM 4/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >>It can be shown that a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop at the Earth's surface >>can exert a 379 newton force of attraction or repulsion against the >>Earth. > >I'll bite. Show. Easy. The force between two current loops (in ampere-meters; Ix*2(pi)rx): 1.0E-7*I1*2(pi)r1*I2*2(pi)r2/(R)^2 (newtons) Big "G", 6.67E-11 factors out to: (6.67E-11/1.0E-7)^1/2 = 0.02583 ampere-meters/Kg Then for the force exerted by the Earth on 1.0 ampere-meter: 1.0E-7*0.02583*5.98E24/(6.38E6)^2 = 379 (newtons). See? :-) Regards, Frederick > > >Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little >1406 Old Wagon Road >Austin TX 78746 >512-328-4071 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 11:02:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08818; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980412123501.008f9860 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:35:01 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <983e2dd6.3530f0db aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"wsuZv3.0.f92.7mFCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17503 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:50 PM 4/12/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: >The silver solder was also much easier to use than >the 50/50 tin lead stuff. You must be talking about 96%Sn-4%Ag solder (e.g. Eutecrod 157)...a Pb-free soft solder. The term "silver solder" usually refers to a product that is much higher in Ag (20-50%) with Cu and sometimes Cd, which typically melts at a red heat, has a brassy look to it and is much stronger than soft solder. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 11:44:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22687; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:45:40 -0800 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , "Vortex-L" From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma Cc: "George" , "Keith Nagel" Resent-Message-ID: <"VProb3.0.KY5.tgGCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17504 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:11 AM 4/12/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >To Vortex: > >It can be shown that a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop at the Earth's surface >can exert a 379 newton force of attraction or repulsion against the >Earth.(or if you prefer, a milliamp through >a kilometer current loop,etc.) :-) > >However, it can also be shown that if this is so,D.C. power lines wouldn't >require poles. :-) > >An "Energizer" battery in a copper hula-hoop, perhaps? Circular pulses in 55 >gallon drums or municipal-sized water tanks? Suitable pulses >on two-wire transmission lines or "flat" transmission lines? Superconducting >current loops? > >Relativity is stubborn, ain't it? :-) > >Regards, Frederick Yes! Since mass is equivlent to energy: m==E E = m*c^2 m = mc^2 1=c^2 c=1 3x10^8 m/s = 1 1 second = 3 x 10^8 meters thus time and distance are equivalent as well. 8^) I thought April fool's day passed. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 11:44:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22708; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:41:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <006c01bd6641$9f908d40$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "Keith Nagel" , "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:33:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Y29YP1.0.jY5.xgGCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17505 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: A rough exercise for the electron that should apply to any particle or "quark". At 0.02583 ampere-meters/Kg for the force between magnetostatic "loop currents". 9.1E-31*0.02583 = 2.35E-32 ampere meters. The classical radius of the electron (circle) is 2.81E-15 Meters. Then 2(pi)R = 1.77E-14 meters. I = 2.35E-32/1.77E-14 = 1.33E-18 Amperes, or 8.32 electrons passing a point on the circle each second (as seen by an observer at rest)that's us. No wonder the gravity force is so weak. OTOH. q*f ~= 19.68 amperes circulating around a circle of 2(pi)*2.81E-15 ~= 3.5E-13 Ampere-meters. 3.5E-13/2.35E-32 = a relativistic time-dilation "Gamma" of 1.5E19. Gamma = 1/(1 - v^2/c^2)^1/2 About the same for each of the three loops-"quarks" in the proton, where each has a "loop current" about 624 times that of the electron, but slightly less "gamma" due to the higher mass. Even so the Earth will attract a 1.0 Ampere-meter current loop (at it's surface) with a force of 379 newtons, If it is built right, I think. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 12:22:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03865; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:14:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199804121914.MAA30422 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: The Sun and Big G Resent-Message-ID: <"Cr-X23.0.Iy.jEHCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17506 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >Hi All, > >I'm posting the following for comment. Where did you find this, and is it on the web? I'll read it more closely later, but the reason the disk is round is because there is a second means of "gravitating", ie coupling to the mass of matter to accelerate it. This second means is via flow of aether and is presently unknown. The lack of accounting for the flow of aether released from stars during the fusion process in the core of stars, leads to the formation of many mysteries in astro physics. The mysteries arise because the expectations we learn to anticipate from applications of our incorrect theories fail to match our observations time and again. Gravitation is the sum of two phenomena. The first is the gravitation we all know and love. This is an acceleration that results from material particles, (which are in actuality not particles at all, but solitonic waves) resonating in frequency match with one another in local spacetime. Thus, incident wave energy from the distant universe arrives and interferes (beats) with the resonances of the local solitons. That leads to a tiny amount of time delay, or, filtering of the incident wave energy. And filtering can only push matter away from the noisy waves. Two ships on the ocean are pushed together by waves lapping on their hulls, because they each filter out some of those waves. That is gravity as you know it. But if you have the two ships near a river, or in an ocean current, they will additionally flow with the ocean current. And if they are made up of the ocean itself, because they are just densifications or resonances in that ocean, then they will flow with the current as do water droplets in clouds flow with the air currents. This flow of spacetime is actually very well known to us as the expansion of the universe. The only thing we have never done is to wonder, where did all that extra empty space come from. The reason is obvious. But, when you study matter as being resonances, you need a medium, and you must conserve that medium. And you learn that our property "mass" is the amount of that medium associated with a given soliton. Thus, fusion leads to aether emission. And there is the source of your expansion, and the reason recent supernova studies show that the universe is accelerating. The inflationary force that got it all moving in the first place, never ceased! All exothermic reactions are aether emissive, and universe expansive, and exert a repulsive "gravitational" thrust. The magnitude is so tiny that you will not measure it even in a nuclear reactor on earth unless you had a really sensitive experiment and got really close, two things that are not very practical though I have wondered about whether this could be measured. The stars, and the sun, however, are close enough to look at and to learn about the ways that the flow of empty space out of them alters the way matter gravitates around them. But it is slippery to think about because you have an inward push from filtering, and an outward thrust from aether flow and emission. The difference is what we measure, and since they are both point sources of thrust, we don't notice that we are really dealing with a composite phenomena. They are both 1/R^2 phenomena. Only when you get really close to the surface where the aether is breaking out and the pressure suddenly drops do you notice strange things happening. Such as the temperature of matter jumping up from 6,000 K to 6,000,000 K as it gains in altitude. The shape of the disk is one of these phenomena. The axis of rotation is the path of least resistance for the flow of aether exiting the sun, and so that is also the path of maximum flow. That leads to sort of puffing up the sun along the axis, and it also leads to the solar wind velocity being 800 km/s at the poles (recent Ulysees findings), vs 400 km/s everywhere else. The thing that surprise you is that there is even a solar wind in the first place with that sort of velocity, especially since the surface escape velocity is 600 km/s, right in between the other two numbers. Anyway, aether flow out of stars leads to many mysteries, and this is a new one on me. For a beautiful image of how aether blasting out of the axis of rotation can accelerate matter, look into the APOD archive for astronomy pictures of the day, and look up HH1 HH2 HH4 and M2-9. The first three are Herbig Haro objects, and are jets blasting out of new born stars axis' of rotation from when they first ignite and begin to emit aether. The last one is of an old star that re-ignited it's helium core and again, blasts aether out shooting away all of the outer layers revealing a white dwarf. But you can clearly see the matter thrown away by the emission of aether in these, just as you can see clouds blown around by air you do not see. Aether, of cores, is not "atomic" like air. It is the medium of empty space itself. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 13:12:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14778; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <009601bd664e$08503b80$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:02:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"B4g132.0.pc3.pzHCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17507 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Borrowing from George Gamow's "Mr. Thompkins": Suppose the local speed of light (S.O.L) was 100 mph, and there was a plane circling above you at night with a relativistic "gamma" of 3600, with the wing lights blinking on for one second and off for one second.This is what the pilot sees. You will see the light come ON for one HOUR and OFF for one HOUR. So you jump into you Cessna 150 a circle above the other plane (in synch) with your wing lights blinking on for one second and off for one second also. What do youse pilots now see for each other's blinky-light frequency. Can you discuss this coherently by radio contact? :-) April Fool, Horace? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 14:38:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00348; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:33:15 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804122133.OAA18817 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"WcYTh.0.85.BEJCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17508 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott wrote: >Good valves are expensive! Nupro bellows-sealed valves start at about >$100/ea for the smallest ones and go up rapidly! Hi Scott and Vince, Have you looked into salvaging a refrigeration valve? They are not cheap either, but they are not AS expensive. The ones used by the fishing industry are built to be used over a wide range of temps and pressures (including a hard vac), and still remain gas-tight. They are field repairable too, meaning that you can repack the stems with teflon coated packing if necessary. The rest of the valve is usually machined to work flawlessly for decades. It also happens to be a great time for finding these critters for free as well, due to the fact that many boats are having to upgrade their refer systems to accommodate the more environmentally friendly refrigerants. This means that there will be alot of stuff pulled out of workboats, and left laying around the shipyards for the taking. Here are a few of my favorite methods for getting stuff for free. The first step is to grow a beard if you don't already have one. Then stay awake for 40 - 70 hours. Drink coffee, eat sugar, chainsmoke Luckies, and you'll be able to stay awake at least 40 hours. Then dress up in your oldest, dirtiest, "holiest" clothes. Have a friend burn the edges of the sleeves and pantlegs. Take a ballpoint pen or a magic marker and very carefully draw either a fouled anchor or a heart with the number 13 in the middle on to your forearm. To be really authentic, you could draw a heart with the name of a girl in it, but you _have_ to misspell the name. Any sailor who is drunk enough to get a tattoo is almost always drunk enough by definition to forget how to spell his own name, his girlfriends name, and even his mom's name. Next, get a bucket of used motor oil, and submerge your hands and arms up to the elbow. Let that soak in for several hours, and then dump the bucket over your head. Wipe off your face, hair, and arms with an old Levi's jacket. Put the jacket on, and you're ready to accessorize. The next part is optional and can be tailored to suit your own artistic expression, but for me, this is key. Carry a purse. Nothing fancy or new, maybe a few sequins, but no more, and just make sure it is a large purse. No pocketbooks. This is not just a fashion accessory either, it actually separates you from the normal dockworkers, and identifies you with that group of engineers that spends ALOT of time at sea, and doesn't care about _anything_. You'll also need to carry some tools, so the purse comes in handy. Take a hacksaw, a pair of channel locks, a refer wrench, flashlight, gloves, an engineers hammer, and a small crowbar. I always open one eye real wide, and squint down real hard with the other eye, and mutter a bunch of nautical stuff under my breath like, "shiver me timbers", when walking though the gates, and I've never had a problem. You should be able to get in there, cut three or four valves, and get out of there in under a half hour. -Knuke, The Seattle Mariner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 16:25:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19663; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:17:29 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <35313E7E.DC14573F verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:21:50 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Torsion and the Electromagnetic Field Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0r-eA3.0.8p4.fpKCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17509 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi, There are two significant theoretical papers about torsion property of EM field on my archive. One is gr-qc/9708051 Torsion and the Electromagnetic Field Authors: V. C. de Andrade (IFT-Unesp), J. G. Pereira (IFT-Unesp) Comments: RevTex, 12 pages, no figures In the framework of the teleparallel equivalent of general relativity, we study the dynamics of a gravitationally coupled electromagnetic field. It is shown that, besides being able to be minimally coupled to torsion, the electromagnetic field, through its energy-momentum tensor, is also able to produce torsion. Furthermore, it is shown that this kind of coupling of the electromagnetic field with torsion preserves the local gauge invariance of Maxwell's theory. This one have a very comprehensible introduction section. Other one is physics/9802033 Electromagnetic Waves in the Vacuum with Torsion and Spin Authors: R. M. Kiehn Comments: SW-20 latex2e 6 pages Report-no: rmkuh298 Subj-class: Classical Physics; Plasma Physics Exact radiative wave solutions to the classical homogeneous Maxwell equations in the vacuum have been found that are not transverse, exhibit both torsion and spin, and for which the second Poincare invariant, E.B, is not zero. Two four component rank 3 tensors of spin current and torsion are constructed on topological grounds. The divergence of each pseudo vector generates the Poincare invariants of the electromagnetic system. which is I had already announced on vortex at Feb 18,98 as "eprints: physics/9802030, physics/9802031, physics/9802033" Both papers are available from xxx.lanl.gov. An other reference found in searching Cern archive is TGPI 01-92 TGPI 92-01 . The possible experimental tests for the torsion field . by Bagrov, V G ; Buchbinder, I L ; Shapiro, I L ; (11 p) . 1992 Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 16:49:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22490; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:47:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00c801bd666c$b59b5900$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Torsion and the Electromagnetic Field Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:42:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"LyHdN2.0.JV5.dALCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17510 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Hamdi Ucar To: vortex Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 5:23 PM Subject: Torsion and the Electromagnetic Field Thanks for the information, Hamdi. Regards, Frederick >Hi, > >There are two significant theoretical papers about torsion property of EM field on my archive. > >One is > >gr-qc/9708051 >Torsion and the Electromagnetic Field > >Authors: V. C. de Andrade (IFT-Unesp), J. G. Pereira (IFT-Unesp) >Comments: RevTex, 12 pages, no figures > > In the framework of the teleparallel equivalent of general relativity, we study the dynamics > of a gravitationally coupled electromagnetic field. It is shown that, besides being able to be > minimally coupled to torsion, the electromagnetic field, through its energy-momentum > tensor, is also able to produce torsion. Furthermore, it is shown that this kind of coupling > of the electromagnetic field with torsion preserves the local gauge invariance of Maxwell's > theory. > > >This one have a very comprehensible introduction section. > > >Other one is > >physics/9802033 > >Electromagnetic Waves in the Vacuum with Torsion and Spin > >Authors: R. M. Kiehn >Comments: SW-20 latex2e 6 pages >Report-no: rmkuh298 >Subj-class: Classical Physics; Plasma Physics > > Exact radiative wave solutions to the classical homogeneous Maxwell equations in the > vacuum have been found that are not transverse, exhibit both torsion and spin, and for > which the second Poincare invariant, E.B, is not zero. Two four component rank 3 tensors > of spin current and torsion are constructed on topological grounds. The divergence of > each pseudo vector generates the Poincare invariants of the electromagnetic system. > > > > >which is I had already announced on vortex at Feb 18,98 as >"eprints: physics/9802030, physics/9802031, physics/9802033" > >Both papers are available from xxx.lanl.gov. > >An other reference found in searching Cern archive is > >TGPI 01-92 TGPI 92-01 . The possible experimental tests for the torsion field . >by Bagrov, V G ; Buchbinder, I L ; Shapiro, I L ; (11 p) . 1992 > > >Regards, > >hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 17:03:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24393; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:01:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00ce01bd666e$9cb6bfe0$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:56:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"pcgjU.0.xy5.RNLCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17511 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Given that time dilation weakens the gravitational force to the extent that the Earth's gravity field can only muster 379 newtons/ampere-meter, a flat transmission line with impedance, Zo = (spacing/width)*(L/C)^1/2 terminated with resistors equal to Zo, and pulsed at the highest attainable pulse rates Might do the job. The "q" for each pulse will be C*V and the voltage will divide equally between the "line" and the terminating resistors. Thus 1/2 the power will be dissipated by the resistors and the rest May be available to do work at some coupling factor. NO FREE LUNCH. A magnetron coupled through a coax in series with a pair of back-to-back diode rectifiers each feeding a flat line: ampere-meters = f*CV*line length would be of interest. Even the 2.45 Gigahertz from a kitchen microwave magnetron and strips from a Printed Circuit board would be a start. Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 17:54:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02557; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980412205251.00656da0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:52:55 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: faster than light Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5Ps2V1.0.pd.47MCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17512 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here's one back at you Hamdi... quant-ph/9804018 Quantum limitations on Superluminal propagation. By none other than Y. Aharonov. K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:03:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03859; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:01:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:01:33 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980412210337.0065ecb0 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:03:41 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"JZhxP2.0.Cy.hFMCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17513 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Howdy: I fear you may be biting the wrong end of the chocolate bunny here Fred. First, if the line is terminated with R=Z, ALL the power gets absorbed by the resistor. From the point of view outside the cable, the fields cancel ( looking like two loops of wire with counter currents ). I, along with about a zillion others, have banged pulses ( really big ones... ) around transmission lines, no forces noted ( by me anyway ) and I average a few KV with nanosecond risetime down to about 20 ohms. Much lower and stripline or synthetic lines become necessary, but still nothing out of the ordinary here. By the way, for you folks at home wanting to try this type of stuff, I've found ordinary 50ohm cable to be capable of taking about 3-4KV without too much trouble. Gentleman, fire your spark gaps! I'm still confused why you think there should be force here. Can you give me a better idea? At 05:56 PM 4/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >To Vortex: > >Given that time dilation weakens the gravitational force to the extent that >the Earth's gravity field can only muster 379 newtons/ampere-meter, a flat >transmission line >with impedance, Zo = (spacing/width)*(L/C)^1/2 >terminated with resistors equal to Zo, and >pulsed at the highest attainable pulse rates >Might do the job. >The "q" for each pulse will be C*V and the voltage will divide equally >between the "line" >and the terminating resistors. Thus 1/2 the power will be dissipated by the >resistors and the rest May be available to do work at some coupling factor. >NO FREE LUNCH. > >A magnetron coupled through a coax in series with a pair of back-to-back >diode rectifiers >each feeding a flat line: >ampere-meters = f*CV*line length would be of interest. > >Even the 2.45 Gigahertz from a kitchen microwave magnetron and strips from a >Printed Circuit board would be a start. > >Regards, Frederick > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:34:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09698; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:17:56 -0700 Subject: torsion fields ? Message-ID: <19980412.181802.9742.1.tv juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"5N-_13.0.JN2.IiMCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17514 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How do you generate a torsion field ? How do you modulate it ? How do you detect it ? Tim ( tv juno.com ) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:37:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10539; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:34:52 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <883901d0.35316b2f aol.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:32:29 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"RTLGg3.0.Wa2.ukMCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17515 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-12 13:49:32 EDT, you write: > You must be talking about 96%Sn-4%Ag solder (e.g. Eutecrod 157)...a > Pb-free soft solder. The term "silver solder" usually refers to a product > that is much higher in Ag (20-50%) with Cu and sometimes Cd, which > typically melts at a red heat, has a brassy look to it and is much stronger > than soft solder. > Scott Little The stuff I used is listed with the following ingrediants: Tin Silver Copper Bismuth No percentages given Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:36:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10907; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:33:40 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:32:27 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"W46q11.0.Jg2.njMCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17516 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-12 17:36:02 EDT, you write: <> > ...... > open one eye real wide, and squint down real hard with the other eye, and >mutter a bunch of nautical stuff under my breath like, "shiver me timbers", > when walking though the gates, and I've never had a problem. You should >be able to get in there, cut three or four valves, and get out of there in under >a half hour. -Knuke, The Seattle Mariner Heh, good stuff Knuke....hmmm...now full speed ahead for the nearest shipyard...Lake Mead??? ...maybe that sub I saw cruisin' there last week. ;) But seriously, I tried this once and never again. When I was 14 I needed a valve for some forgotten project. As I cut into the system there was a hissing...the sound of refrigerent being released, I took a snif.... ammonia!! Hoo boy, I was outta there in a flash gasping and choking. I swore off _ever_ cutting into refrigeration systems again. Vince Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:44:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13032; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:40:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199804130140.SAA26291 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: faster than light Resent-Message-ID: <"liTU81.0.WB3.7sMCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17517 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Here's one back at you Hamdi... > >quant-ph/9804018 Quantum limitations on Superluminal propagation. > >By none other than Y. Aharonov. This no doubt does not allow that the "stuff" of spacetime ahead of the craft could be condensed out of the way of the craft, freeing it to move through a vortex in the ocean of the quantum vacuum. ie, by firing a spray of intense energy forward, you should be able to condense matter ahead of the craft into "virtual particles", where virtual simply means short lived. Then, the craft passes through that region, and behind the craft the virtual particle vaporize back into aether buoying up the pressure of the aether and creating a pressure wave behind the craft which the craft can then ride forward. For FTL travel, it isn't important any more to launch stuff backward to accelerate. Instead, it becomes important to condense the stuff ahead of you out of your way by forming a vortex like a smoke ring around the craft. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:46:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13507; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:45:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00ff01bd667d$1b068840$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:40:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"EAk0b1.0.sI3.PuMCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17518 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 7:02 PM Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? You get around like the Cheshire Cat, Keith. Why do you think I call it a Dilemma? It seems that ONLY the manifestations of Natural Energy can produce the Gravitational Field by way of intrinsic spin: mvr = hbar*alpha. This relativistically dilated current for the whole Earth can only produce 379 newtons/ampere-meter on a hypothetical, one ampere-meter "current loop" at the Earth's surface. The closest thing that I can envision as a non-canceling current loop is a battery in a conducting hoop? When I get a chance I'll lay one of those on a scale and see if it gets lighter or heavier depending on the direction cw or ccw of current flow. Only need about 1.0E18 amperes to get the right ampere-meters though. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Howdy: > >I fear you may be biting the wrong end of the chocolate bunny >here Fred. > >First, if the line is terminated with R=Z, ALL the power gets >absorbed by the resistor. From the point of view outside the >cable, the fields cancel ( looking like two loops of wire with >counter currents ). I, along with about a zillion others, have >banged pulses ( really big ones... ) around transmission lines, >no forces noted ( by me anyway ) and I average a few KV with >nanosecond risetime down to about 20 ohms. Much lower and >stripline or synthetic lines become necessary, but still >nothing out of the ordinary here. By the way, for you folks >at home wanting to try this type of stuff, I've found ordinary >50ohm cable to be capable of taking about 3-4KV without too >much trouble. Gentleman, fire your spark gaps! > > >I'm still confused why you think there should be force here. >Can you give me a better idea? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 18:57:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14968; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 18:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <011a01bd667e$a3659d60$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: faster than light Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:51:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"NOOWA1.0.of3.c2NCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17519 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Ross Tessien To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 7:42 PM Subject: Re: faster than light Nice Going, Ross! But the "Apex" of the vortex should only create One Particle of incredible energy, E = kq^2/R with a charge q = 1.602E-19 coulombs. Either the charge or the gravitational "pull" of energy possibly as much as that of the Moon will pull you ahead in the rarified Aether at a velocity >> c. Regards, Frederick >>Here's one back at you Hamdi... >> >>quant-ph/9804018 Quantum limitations on Superluminal propagation. >> >>By none other than Y. Aharonov. > >This no doubt does not allow that the "stuff" of spacetime ahead of the >craft could be condensed out of the way of the craft, freeing it to move >through a vortex in the ocean of the quantum vacuum. ie, by firing a spray >of intense energy forward, you should be able to condense matter ahead of >the craft into "virtual particles", where virtual simply means short lived. >Then, the craft passes through that region, and behind the craft the virtual >particle vaporize back into aether buoying up the pressure of the aether and >creating a pressure wave behind the craft which the craft can then ride forward. > >For FTL travel, it isn't important any more to launch stuff backward to >accelerate. Instead, it becomes important to condense the stuff ahead of >you out of your way by forming a vortex like a smoke ring around the craft. > >Ross Tessien > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 19:04:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19189; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:02:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:02:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980412220504.00663b00 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:05:07 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: faster than light Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-gWmQ3.0.lh4.F9NCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17520 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: errr... actually, the article was about some observations made over the last couple of years that pulses of light shot thru an active media would show pulse waveshape changes indicating faster than light transmission of group velocity... I made a point of the authors name as for some strange reason, outside of a small group of experimental physicists, this topic is considered "fringe". Causality doesn't collapse when C is exceeded... Bite me Albert Einstein! K. At 06:40 PM 4/12/98 -0700, you wrote: >This no doubt does not allow that the "stuff" of spacetime ahead of the >craft could be condensed out of the way of the craft, freeing it to move >through a vortex in the ocean of the quantum vacuum. ie, by firing a spray >of intense energy forward, you should be able to condense matter ahead of >the craft into "virtual particles", where virtual simply means short lived. >Then, the craft passes through that region, and behind the craft the virtual >particle vaporize back into aether buoying up the pressure of the aether and >creating a pressure wave behind the craft which the craft can then ride forward. > >For FTL travel, it isn't important any more to launch stuff backward to >accelerate. Instead, it becomes important to condense the stuff ahead of >you out of your way by forming a vortex like a smoke ring around the craft. > >Ross Tessien > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 19:21:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22902; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:20:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:20:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980412222207.00664a78 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:22:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Aether Vortex Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"nLrYl2.0.mb5.EPNCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17521 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Well... Here's a general question of obvious relevance to vortex. What would I expect to see in a space, say about a meter cubed, in which an aether vortex was whirling. Now, bear in mind, the circulation may be very slight. What I'm fishing for is, what would be the most sensitive test you could imagine to detect such a swirling? Also, bear in mind that I live on Earth and doing this in a vacuum is out of the question ( for now BWAA-HAHAHAHA ). Seriously, what do you think? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 19:36:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26480; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:32:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:32:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980412223505.00664a78 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:35:08 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Sj-ur.0.eT6.PbNCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17523 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Purrrrrr..... Ok, best bet here is to terminate the line with the loop. Risetime will not be so hot, but current will double ( what you want right? ) Now we're gonna see some action, but two things will quickly become apparent. 1) ferrous objects in the immediate vicinity will produce eddy currents causing a force on the loop. 2) earths field itself will act to cause force on the loop. Best thing to have before start of the experiment is the expected force due to this new effect, Fred. Come on now, I've got all the makings for this experiment; but you've got to give me more to go on here before I test the idea. You mentioned 10^18 amperes? Woah, what happened to 1 ampere-meter? If it works, I'll make sure to point out in the joint paper that you had to twist my arm savagely to do it :^) K. At 07:40 PM 4/12/98 -0600, you wrote: >You get around like the Cheshire Cat, Keith. Why do you think I call it a >Dilemma? > >It seems that ONLY the manifestations of Natural Energy can produce the >Gravitational Field by way of intrinsic spin: mvr = hbar*alpha. This >relativistically >dilated current for the whole Earth can only produce 379 >newtons/ampere-meter >on a hypothetical, one ampere-meter "current loop" at the Earth's surface. > >The closest thing that I can envision as a non-canceling current loop is a >battery >in a conducting hoop? > >When I get a chance I'll lay one of those on a scale and see if it gets >lighter or heavier depending on the direction cw or ccw of current flow. >Only need about >1.0E18 amperes to get the right ampere-meters though. :-) > >Regards, Frederick > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 19:42:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21130; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:34:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <013701bd6683$fb852d80$198cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Aether Vortex Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:29:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"dTDJ81.0.f95.xcNCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17522 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 8:20 PM Subject: Aether Vortex >Well... > >Here's a general question of obvious relevance to vortex. > >What would I expect to see in a space, say about a meter >cubed, in which an aether vortex was whirling. Now, bear in >mind, the circulation may be very slight. How about a "Cosmic Ray" particle that's developing over 1.0E20 ev on it's way by? :-) These and many other "C.R." particles with energies close to this, are unexplained in High Energy Physics. Same for the "Cygnons". Regards, Frederick > What I'm fishing >for is, what would be the most sensitive test you could >imagine to detect such a swirling? Also, bear in mind >that I live on Earth and doing this in a vacuum is out >of the question ( for now BWAA-HAHAHAHA ). > >Seriously, what do you think? > >K. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 20:05:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25371; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:58:28 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804130258.TAA07313 slave2.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"Qh24G2.0.JC6.1_NCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17524 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: The leak I thought I had found and fixed three >times was still there after replacing various valves, resweating fittings and >even replacing vacuum guages. I was so frustrated after the latest effort >on Saturday morning and still had a leak I decided to completely >rebuild the entire vacuum manifold. Hi Vince, Getting a good seal on the sweat fittings is usually the one of the culprits on newly built systems. The other is the valve stems. I have seen gauges go bad and leak, but that is rare. Valve stems almost always come from the factory with the packing nut just a tad on the loose side. You're expected to install it, and then test it under pressure. If it leaks, you just snug it down enough to stop the leak. No more. The sweat fittings are a little more difficult to fix, but not much. After the initial assembly, pressurize the system to ~100psi, and use the old soap bubble trick to identify where the leaks are. Then pull the system into a very slight vac (~2" - 5" Hg) and very slowly feather the flame over the joint until the solder that is already in the joint starts to shine. Then add new solder over the area that was leaking. The slight vac on the system will pull the new solder into the leak and seal it. This has always worked for me, especially with difficult to seal situations like joining dissimilar metal components that have different rates of thermal expansion. It's a good after-assembly technique that can cover-up the fact that you are not a "torch artist". I've done this with a stick welder on steel pipe as well. I've also heard that you can do this trick with specially made vacuum glues like TorrSeal, but I've never tried it. It might even work better, I don't know. It might also come in handy on the gauge threads if that is what is leaking. -Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1825 Nagle Place #210 Seattle, WA 98122 (206)325-2461 knuke aa.net http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 20:28:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28119; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:21:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000a01bd668a$a19bbc60$278cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:16:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"M21RL1.0.Ht6.KJOCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17525 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma, Resolved? >Purrrrrr..... > >Ok, best bet here is to terminate the line with the loop. Good Idea, Keith. > Risetime >will not be so hot, but current will double ( what you want right? ) >Now we're gonna see some action, but two things will quickly become >apparent. > >1) ferrous objects in the immediate vicinity will produce eddy >currents causing a force on the loop. Is the Earth a ferrous wheel? :-) > >2) earths field itself will act to cause force on the loop. > >Best thing to have before start of the experiment is the expected >force due to this new effect, Fred. Try 0.02583 ampere-meters/Kg. But, the 3.5E-13 ampere-meters for one of the 312 Mev "quarks" in the proton is reduced to (1.67E-27/3)* 0.02583 = 1.437E-29 ampere-meters or by a gamma of about 2.43E16 then the loop current i is 624*19.7/2.43E16 = 5.05E-13 amperes. However, if you can get enough pulses of a synthesized "q" flowing you might get the ampere-meters needed to couple to the Earth's gravity field and pick up a few newtons of antigrav force. But don't bet the farm on it. :-) >Come on now, I've got >all the makings for this experiment; but you've got to >give me more to go on here before I test the idea. >You >mentioned 10^18 amperes? Woah, what happened to 1 ampere-meter? It's all relative, isn't it? > >If it works, I'll make sure to point out in the joint paper >that you had to twist my arm savagely to do it :^) IF it works, I'll spring for tickets when the Cubs are playing in the World Series! :-) Regards, Frederick > >K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 12 21:23:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06108; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:19:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199804130419.VAA08339 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Aether Vortex Resent-Message-ID: <"M67iY1.0.MV1.cAPCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17526 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Well... > >Here's a general question of obvious relevance to vortex. > >What would I expect to see in a space, say about a meter >cubed, in which an aether vortex was whirling. We observe this all the time. We call the vortices particles. And we call the waves around the vortices particles. Now you have to pick which geometry of vortex you want to study, one that induces the aether to condensate, or one that is an open vortex. The former are what we call massive particles, and the latter are what we call photons. for simple spherical vortices, we call those leptons. For composite particles composed of 9 muon resonances, 3 per quark, we call these protons and neutrons Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 01:18:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15851; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:10:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:10:38 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980412.181802.9742.1.tv juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:10:04 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: torsion fields ? Resent-Message-ID: <"1TvwR1.0.Yt3.yXSCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17527 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Tim - > How do you generate a torsion field ? > How do you modulate it ? > How do you detect it ? See the Wallace patents on Bill beaty's web site. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 05:01:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09977; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 04:58:22 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804131158.EAA25396 slave2.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"Ma1KE3.0.mR2.7vVCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17528 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: >But seriously, I tried this once and never again. When I was 14 I needed >a valve for some forgotten project. As I cut into the system there was >a hissing...the sound of refrigerent being released, I took a snif.... >ammonia!! Hoo boy, I was outta there in a flash gasping and choking. >I swore off _ever_ cutting into refrigeration systems again. > Hi Vince, Yeah, I refuse to work with that stuff. I won't tell any of the nightmare stories that I know on this. They are too horrible. Suffice it to say that ammonia will dissolve your respiratory system before you can even think about getting away, under the wrong circumstances. While the Freons can sneak up on you, you at least have a chance if you recognize the symptoms soon enough, but with ammonia there is no time. One good leak, and everyone's a goner. The thing about boats is that there is no boat that can maintain the pounding that boats inevitably take, and _not_ leak. You occasionally have difficulties with leaks on land, but on a boat, they are the rule. I don't know why anyone would use ammonia on a boat. It's nonsense. Your post brings up another good point about refer systems though, that most people probably don't know. When many refer systems are in operation, alot of refer oil gets thrown into the coils. This is a normal occurrence. If you pull long enough and hard enough on the system, you can pull the lions share of that oil into an accumulator to be drained off, but it literally can take days of pumping to get it completely out of any large system. What is nonobvious is that the refrigerant gets entrained in the oil as a liquid, and if all the oil is not pulled out of a section of coils before it is torn out, the refrigerant will boil out, and build pressure in any part of the coil that is valved off. In your case, you probably saw some coil with the valves on it, and just didn't know about that possibility. I wouldn't have thought about it either. With an increasing number of boats using ammonia these days, I'm glad you mentioned it. Next time I get all dolled up to go shopping, I'll have to watch out for that. -Knuke Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company 1825 Nagle Place #210 Seattle, WA 98122 knuke aa.net http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 07:08:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24836; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:01:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:01:53 -0700 Message-ID: <003901bd66e5$7db2dda0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: My best shot Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:07:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"2ZwwI3.0.z36.GhXCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17529 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: During the past weeks, I have made what I consider improvements in my production. No more hidden doors, for the complete process goto: http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 08:48:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11996; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:43:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:43:11 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <352F73B9.3D89 interlaced.net> <35228B02.11D2@interlaced.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:43:48 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"uKnzs1.0.8x2.CAZCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17530 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >I'm seeing indications of this net force in straight channels when the >metal tries to drain out of the section between electrodes and bulge up in >the regions behind them. This is a common manifestation of the common pinch effect. The central length, where the current flows longitudinally, is squeezed or pinched by the JxB force, thereby increasing the pressure on that part of the fluid column. That extra pressure, of course, acts out the ends of the current region and raises the height of the liquid in the end regions beyond the electrical connection points. You see, the difficulty with designing an experiment with liquids is, if you apply a pressure at one point, the effects are seen throught the fluid. It's the nature of the liquid state. This makes it very difficult to work back from observations of liquid displacement and know the force pattern that caused them. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 09:21:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11962; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804131608.MAA03606 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: My best shot Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 12:13:35 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" , "Jim Uban" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"RCIXr3.0.nw2.ZcZCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17531 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >During the past weeks, I have made what I consider improvements in my >production. > >No more hidden doors, for the complete process goto: >http://www.transmutation.com Thanks, Joe for being open now! Jim Uban and I were happy to have received your newest recipe earlier than your Vortex posting. We will try it -- the Ag has just arrived. If this works, you're golden :) -- if it doesn't work, well... but I'll be optimistic. May not get to it till after ICCF7. Gene Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 09:38:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16888; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <004b01bd66fa$750968d0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: My best shot Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:37:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"PFe6N3.0.n74.ZvZCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17532 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Thanks, Joe for being open now! Jim Uban and I were happy to have >received your newest recipe earlier than your Vortex posting. We will try >it -- the Ag has just arrived. If this works, you're golden :) -- if it >doesn't work, well... but I'll be optimistic. May not get to it till >after ICCF7. If anyone is attempting replication, I will be happy to consult with them via Internet. Joe From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 09:56:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29711; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:54:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:54:34 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:58:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: re: faster than light In-Reply-To: <004b01bd66fa$750968d0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"U0utA2.0.7G7.9DaCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17533 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The speed of light in vacuum can be determined from the free space impedance divided by the free space permeability: Co = Zo / Uo = 3 x 10^8 m/s. Zo = 377 ohms and Uo = 1.26 x 10^-6 Vs/Am. The impedance of a parallel resonant circuit, with L,C,R in parallel, depends strictly on the parallel resistance, R. Under certain conditions some materials have an index of refraction that is less than unity. (X-rays through glass and microwaves in a waveguide). This means C > Co in the medium. A parallel resonant circuit can have a very high impedance (well exceeding the free space value). The speed of light in the circuit depends on Z (=R) and the relative permeability of the copper wire, Ur = 1 (actually slightly less than one): C = Z / UoUr. For Z = R = 10^6 ohms, C = 8 x 10^11 m/s >> Co. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 10:29:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03606; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:22:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:22:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:29:00 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"l3TNP1.0.3u.5daCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17534 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:43 AM 4/13/98, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >Rick Monteverde wrote: > >>I'm seeing indications of this net force in straight channels when the >>metal tries to drain out of the section between electrodes and bulge up in >>the regions behind them. > >This is a common manifestation of the common pinch effect. The central >length, where the current flows longitudinally, is squeezed or pinched by >the JxB force, thereby increasing the pressure on that part of the fluid >column. By JxB force, I take it that you mean the self induced force from the current on itself due to the current traveling normal to it's self induced circular lines of flux. It appears the mercury 12 amp mercury experiment was not beset with this problem. In the mercury experiment there was no significant JxB induced pressure increase at the pressure measurement take-off T-interstection, nor a pressure increase at the T-interstection due to a bulge in the current path at the T. This was determined by running the current with no magnets present. Though the mercury column height reading accuracy was at best about 1/4 mm, in the magnifier used, a mercury motion of even 1/10 mm might be distinguished from no motion at all. I feel certain this problem was not present. Of course the results were negative, so I guess consideration of this is academic from the standpoint of the low current mercury experiment. However, Rick might (or might not depending on results) eliminate the JxB pinch as a significant variable in a similar manner, by removing the magnets and seeing if the bulge at the T persists. >That extra pressure, of course, acts out the ends of the current >region and raises the height of the liquid in the end regions beyond the >electrical connection points. > >You see, the difficulty with designing an experiment with liquids is, if >you apply a pressure at one point, the effects are seen throught the fluid. [snip] This is one of the interesting things about the saddle shaped field produced by the magnet pair at the tubing T. The Lorentz force is all inwards to the saddle, which is blocked at the top by the walls of the tube, provided the magnet pair is oriented opposite the T branch. When not opposite, i.e. when the saddle producing magnets are orthogonal to the T, the pressure outlet you mention clearly pumped the fluid out the T branch regardless of the Lorentz force direction. A good demonstration that what you say is correct I think. If the pressure has any outlet whatsoever, the fluid flows to it until the pressure is exactly opposed. Though the current used in the Hg experiments was a low 12 A, the Lorentz force could push a fairly dramatic 4 mm Hg pressure head. I think this is similar to the lift height present in the solder experiments. The reason for the similarity in force results is that the magnets used in the mercury experiments were horrendously powerful, and mildly hazardous to use, 1" cube 35 MgO neodymium magnets. Rick, I take it the magnets you are using are not the powerful neo type? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 10:31:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26036; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:22:47 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <35324A74.C4D05ABE verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:25:08 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: 1/e - e = 3 (eprint:hep-ph/9804272) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SkIVH2.0.jM6.-iaCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17535 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, take a look to this paper, available from "xxx.lanl.gov". hamdi ucar hep-ph/9804272 From: Gabriel Lopez Castro Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:30:41 GMT (4kb) Arithmetic and the standard electroweak theory Authors: G. Lopez Castro, J. Pestieau Comments: Latex, 6 pages Report-no: UCL-IPT-98-09, CINVESTAV-FIS/98- We propose the relations 1/e - e =3 and tan(2theta_W)=3/2, where e is the positron charge and theta_W is the weak angle. Present experimental data support these relations to a very high accuracy. We suggest that some duality relates the weak isospin and h ypercharge gauge groups of the standard electroweak theory. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 11:13:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01131; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:53:38 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <353251AF.4B78B99B verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:56:00 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: faster than light References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hBlFe2.0.XH.x9bCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17536 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jim Ostrowski wrote: [snip] > > A parallel resonant circuit can have a very high impedance (well > exceeding the free space value). The speed of light in the circuit > depends on Z (=R) and the relative permeability of the copper wire, Or > = 1 (actually slightly less than one): > > C = Z / UoUr. > > For Z = R = 10^6 ohms, > > C = 8 x 10^11 m/s >> Co. > > Jim Ostrowski I have very large inductances and also having equally large interwinding capacitances on my resonating coils. Even more, as the coil resonate kind of spatially distributed manner( it should be a correct terminology for this), this allow to combine displa cement currents with the currents passing inside the copper, so large currents could be induced inside the coil without introducing copper ohmic and other losses. So this condition allows to obtain very large Q's. If your logic is correct, This could be a very good superluminal medium. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 12:59:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02061; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:55:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:55:22 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:54:50 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"FHHKP1.0.3W.dscCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17537 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Rick, I take it the magnets you are using > are not the powerful neo type? Ever since getting a Marinov ring to rotate (with grade 5 SMOT magnets), I have NOT used any magnets. I'm now looking at only the effects of current in the solder. The 'T' (or 'Y') shape with current in the cross bar thrusts solder up the stem of the 'T' without magnets. That seems to be a manifestation of the magnetic kink at the 90 degree corners exerting a force on the solder up the channel - this is not a subtle effect, the solder surges up the T when I hit the juice. As for the straight channel tests, again with no magnets, the self-induced pinch seems to be at least one explanation, however I don't think that can explain the exploding wire fractures Graneau describes, and it doesn't really satisfy the sense I get from watching these things. When the solder drains, it 'wants' to break apart and separate somewhere in the channel between the electrodes. This seems to happen before it would occur naturally if you were just sucking solder out from both ends by purely mechanical means. Yes yes, sausage instability can be invoked here too, but with the strong surface tension in solder, why does it even get started when the supposed pinch effect is adding pressure to the column of solder? If that's the source of the pressure, the lengthwise compression in the solder column plus the surface tension trying to 'heal' any dimples ought to act to squish the column together to oppose separation along its length. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 13:26:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26165; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:21:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:20:45 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"_owmw3.0.gO6.VFdCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17538 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: [snip] >As for the straight channel tests, again with no magnets, the self-induced >pinch seems to be at least one explanation, however I don't think that can >explain the exploding wire fractures Graneau describes, and it doesn't >really satisfy the sense I get from watching these things. When the solder >drains, it 'wants' to break apart and separate somewhere in the channel >between the electrodes. Classic magnetic pinch behavior. The magnetic pinch is unstable. It's easy to understand qualitatively. The magnetic field at the surface is proportional to I/r, where I = current and r = local radius of the surface. The magnetic pressure is proportional to B^2, hence to (I/r)^2. Now, if r is slightly smaller someplace, the magnetic pressure is lower. Fluid being fluid, it flows away from this region; but that reduces the local r still more, leads to greater local magnetic pressure, etc etc unstable runaway. The column pinches off someplace. The displaced metal shows up someplace else, just like you describe below. (BTW, this is not just theory. I've seen it myself back in my early days when I did some liquid metal MHD experiments.) >This seems to happen before it would occur >naturally if you were just sucking solder out from both ends by purely >mechanical means. Yes yes, sausage instability can be invoked here too, but >with the strong surface tension in solder, why does it even get started >when the supposed pinch effect is adding pressure to the column of solder? Surface tension is destabilizing, not stabilizing. surface tension creates a local pressure proportional to 1/r --- not as strong a dependence as the 1/r^2 magnetic pressure, but unstable just the same. This is why water columns break up into drops. In a channel like yours, both magnetic and surface tension pinch instabilities ared stabilized by gravity and the channel walls --- the pinch displaces some liquid, which must cause liquid someplace else in the channel to rise against gravity. This takes energy, and it stabilizes pinches until the pinch effect gets large enough to overcome the gravity effect. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 13:38:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12857; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:35:08 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980413163715.009d69e0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:37:15 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Circularly Polarized EM Waves Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <352EEE98.1B56 interlaced.net> References: <007901bd64f0$c7d07ce0$318cbfa8 default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Ims721.0.o83.wRdCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17539 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:16 AM 4/11/98 -0400, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >I just happen to have a pile of parts in my garage that was once a >Litton microwave oven. It's really neat, it really is a pile of parts >- looks like it's ready for the trash. But, if you plug it in, all the >floresent lights in the garage light up. :-) You are joking, right? Not only could this qualify you for a Darwin Award, it could kill people, pets, plants, etc. up to a mile or so away without your being aware of it. (There are too many microwave dishes around for comfort these days.) I had some friends when I was in first grade whose father died in an accident while working on a radar. I knew the kids because our parents worked together, and the radar that killed their father had a lower beam power than most microwave ovens. (I won't go into the gory details, but basically what happened was that the reflecting dish wasn't well grounded, so the energy went out the back of the dish.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 13:48:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01073; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BD66F2.4DCDE5A0 oemcomputer> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: faster than light Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:39:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD66F2.4DCDE5A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"gdSXL2.0.gG.AZdCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17540 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD66F2.4DCDE5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---------- From: Keith Nagel[SMTP:knagel cnct.com] Sent: Sunday, April 12, 1998 9:05 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: faster than light >Causality doesn't collapse when C is exceeded... >Bite me Albert Einstein! >K. Of course it doesn't:-) There is, and always has been, an absolute frame = of reference. I will post the address of an Apeiron article explaining = this.=20 If you want to travel FTL in a spacecraft, no problem. All you have to = do is interact with spacetime in some way to bend it in a way that = allows propellantless propulsion. Hence my intense investigations of = gauge fields, neutrinos and the 'A' vector potential. K. R. Mcallister ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD66F2.4DCDE5A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgoUAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAHAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAARQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHZvcnRleC1sQGVza2lt by5jb20AU01UUAB2b3J0ZXgtbEBlc2tpbW8uY29tAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAD MAEAAAAUAAAAdm9ydGV4LWxAZXNraW1vLmNvbQADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAWAAAA J3ZvcnRleC1sQGVza2ltby5jb20nAAAAAgELMAEAAAAZAAAAU01UUDpWT1JURVgtTEBFU0tJTU8u Q09NAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACMDMBBIABABYAAABSRTogZmFz dGVyIHRoYW4gbGlnaHQAeQcBBYADAA4AAADOBwQADQAPACcACQABACYBASCAAwAOAAAAzgcEAA0A DwAjADQAAQBNAQEJgAEAIQAAADBDODUzNzNGRTJEMkQxMTFBNzVFRThFMDBBQzEwMDAwABAHAQOQ BgDABAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAIIPa NRxnvQEeAHAAAQAAABYAAABSRTogZmFzdGVyIHRoYW4gbGlnaHQAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvWcc Ndps0gTD0uIR0ade6OAKwQAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFwAAAHN0a0Bz dW5oZXJhbGQuaW5maS5uZXQAAAMABhCv8z/TAwAHEAsCAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAAAtLS0tLS0tLS0t RlJPTTpLRUlUSE5BR0VMU01UUDpLTkFHRUxAQ05DVENPTVNFTlQ6U1VOREFZLEFQUklMMTIsMTk5 ODk6MDVQTVRPOlZPUlRFWC1MQEVTS0lNT0NPTVNVQkpFAAAAAAIBCRABAAAANAMAADADAAC0BQAA TFpGdR7003H/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7ozEw19 CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoENsQtgbvBnMTAzFCALChQiDAEaYwBAIAqFCotsaTEEODAC0WktMTQ0 zw3wDNAcwwtZMTYKoANg9nQFkAVALR7nCocdmwwwdR5mRgNhOh/uHmYMgiAgS2VpdGgHsGFnAGVs W1NNVFA6RGtuJBJAY24esC75BaBtXR+PIJ0GYAIwIc8BIttTdW5kYXksJxNwHmADETEyKjAxOQA5 OCA5OjA1IMxQTSW/IJ1Ubyf/IttidhWhZXgtJQAHkGsdB3BvJWIrvybOdWJqJx6hLd8i21JlM1Bm YT5zHpAFwCPQA5EcIGdoZnQa7xvzMzYdZxo5PsM4HR5mQ2F1cwdAI8CQeSBkbweQbicFQIsVcQtg cBHwIHdoCfDVOrAgBAAgL/BjCeANsHxkLj2QNo44PzlPHnVCzyPAPFAHgBNwbGIEkAVA7kULgDWR C4AhPc8+3z/vPR6ESz29Nv84DxqxT2YfO9EIcDxBI8A7VjotKb8toDyAFgA80SowAHBkS8D8bHcq EAQgEcAEIEHwCfDTS7JLwGJzBvB1QXEDUNphQaFvScAWAGZLUSUwcGUuIEk8YAMQAyBwjm81kDXR PFBhZGQWAP8EEU5BA5EqUCOwA2BNMQAgeGljbDxQL/ALUwuAZ6810QQATwBG/ElJwHkIYLc8YABw T8FvNdBN8HYkMJkhcFRMPNBNMSBzCrDbPTAFAGEBgCowblTAHmH5AmBlbU8AQdADIFQiEcD/VRBU ojtgPNILgDWhANAFQP8D8CPRVeNRoEGhVZFNcEGh/0wxVKJB8EvhSlFVk1rDEcD3BUAHQBWQdwQg HmFREDwBzwIwUdAEEV0CdWwAkAIg/U8ASE7CQZA7QFjCAIBaIn9VEDWQNkBcYF5hUINgMHUnJCA1 YAiQbGRLoW5lP02gBRBWoAQgS9JP4idB/icvoB6hBbFPkF9hUaAHQM89vUZgB/BPAE1jXJEEAL81 oQtGEvI6GQqFFSEAaDADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMIDcWsAbZ70BQAAIMIDcWsAbZ70BHgA9 AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAKte ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD66F2.4DCDE5A0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 14:08:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05928; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35328B81.3842 macsrule.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:02:41 -0700 From: "Mark A. Collins" Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: faster than light References: <01BD66F2.4DCDE5A0 oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"h2oOf2.0.YS1.LtdCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17541 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: You mean ala StarTrek's Warp Bubble? What if gravity isn't due to a warp in timespace? What if gravity, inertia, and all main forces are a byproduct of Zero Point Energy? If that were true, then how would you travel faster than light? What if light was always at C because it warped time proportional to the speed above C, giving the appearance of always being C? I guess that you would have to manipulate Zero Point Energy in order to do that, eh? > > Of course it doesn't:-) There is, and always has been, an absolute frame of reference. I will post the address of an Apeiron article explaining this. > > If you want to travel FTL in a spacecraft, no problem. All you have to do is interact with spacetime in some way to bend it in a way that allows propellantless propulsion. Hence my intense investigations of gauge fields, neutrinos and the 'A' vector pot ential. > > K. R. Mcallister > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 14:33:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12202; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:26:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199804132126.OAA31293 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: re: faster than light Resent-Message-ID: <"2thDt3.0.T-2.1EeCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17542 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > > > The speed of light in vacuum can be determined from the free space > impedance divided by the free space permeability: > > Co = Zo / Uo = 3 x 10^8 m/s. > > Zo = 377 ohms and Uo = 1.26 x 10^-6 Vs/Am. > Co and Uo correspond to the rigidity and the density of the aether (though I forget which is which off the top of my head.) One of them is inverted, and you have to go back to the original units used in the 1800's to see the relation. Paul Stowe and Barry Mingst have published this information. The net result is that to propogate EM photonic waveforms coherently, they have to be vortices, and the velocity of wavefront propogation has to be sqrt 3 times c. This is the length of a cubes diagonal. I am not certain that their result on this is correct, but I am certain that pressure waves propogate at faster than c, because if not, solitons could not move at c. Solitons being photons. Thus, it should be possible to send compression information, ie longitudinal waves, through the aether at faster than c. The question then arises, will those waves travel at sqrt3 as Paul and Barry think, or is there a differential more like that of vapor vs condensate. For water vs steam, or air, the difference is about 1,100 ft/s in air vs 1500 m/s for sound in water. ergo, ~4 times the velocity in liquid as in air. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 14:50:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16957; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:47:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980413174755.009d94a0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:47:55 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980412123501.008f9860 mail.eden.com> References: <983e2dd6.3530f0db aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"UMQSj3.0.o84.oVeCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17543 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:35 PM 4/12/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >You must be talking about 96%Sn-4%Ag solder (e.g. Eutecrod 157)...a Pb-free >soft solder. The term "silver solder" usually refers to a product that is >much higher in Ag (20-50%) with Cu and sometimes Cd, which typically melts >at a red heat, has a brassy look to it and is much stronger than soft solder. Either is better for vacuum work than lead tin solder, but as Scott implicitly points out, the high silver content solder is MUCH harder to work with. I've done decent silver solder jobs with a propane torch, but it is much easier to use oxy/acetelyne. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 14:54:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17986; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:49:04 +0000 Message-ID: <19980413214902.AAA19064 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"RrNl91.0.uO4.OZeCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17544 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, I have heard many people say that it is bad for lead-acid batteries to be stored on concrete or steel floors, but nobody seems to have an explanation as to why. Is this received wisdom based upon anything you people care to comment? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 15:14:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07526; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:09:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:09:14 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980413170250.00dd3358 f50.prelude.com> X-Sender: d.powell f50.prelude.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:02:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Don Powell Subject: Re: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"pvzij3.0.Sr1.6qeCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17545 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I can not explain why but my brother-in-law told me this years ago. I being a college graduate and he just getting a GED. I did not pay any attention and lo and behold the battery was drained of all charge in days. I always put them on wood now like he says to do and I also learned to NEVER discount what someone says based on any type of bias. At 09:49 PM 4/13/98 +0000, you wrote: >Vo, > >I have heard many people say that it is bad for lead-acid batteries to be >stored on concrete or steel floors, but nobody seems to have an explanation >as to why. Is this received wisdom based upon anything you people care to >comment? > >Ed Wall > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 15:39:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27062; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BD6701.86446760 oemcomputer> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: faster than light Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:28:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id PAA26966 Resent-Message-ID: <"NEVyv1.0.lc6.L9fCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17546 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ---------- From: Mark A. Collins[SMTP:themacman macsrule.com] Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 5:02 PM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: faster than light >You mean ala StarTrek's Warp Bubble? Sort of. >What if gravity isn't due to a warp in timespace? What if gravity, >inertia, and all main forces are a byproduct of Zero Point Energy? If >that were true, then how would you travel faster than light? The vector potential theory is based on zero-point energy causing inertia/gravity. Therefore, it would work. >What if light was always at C because it warped time proportional to the >speed above C, giving the appearance of always being C? The system I described would still probably work. The light actually has been shown to be non-isotropic in every direction by many experiments, including the Michelson-Morley experiment. >I guess that you would have to manipulate Zero Point Energy in order to >do that, eh? Yes. Kyle R. Mcallister From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 15:40:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28249; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BD6702.4CBA1160 oemcomputer> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Apeiron article-Michelson-Morley experiments revisited Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:33:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PBdAA3.0.Fv6.aEfCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17547 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: http://redshift.vif.com/V05N1MUN.pdf Kyle Randall Mcallister Email: stk sunherald.infi.net Phone: 228-875-0629 Fax: 228-872-5837 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 15:47:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16780; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:44:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:44:48 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:51:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Resent-Message-ID: <"NlMAZ.0.-54.ULfCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17548 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 1:20 PM 4/13/98, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >Classic magnetic pinch behavior. The magnetic pinch is unstable. It's easy >to understand qualitatively. The magnetic field at the surface is >proportional to I/r, where I = current and r = local radius of the surface. >The magnetic pressure is proportional to B^2, hence to (I/r)^2. Now, if r >is slightly smaller someplace, the magnetic pressure is lower. It looks like the above word "lower" is a typo, meaning "higher". I readiy recognize typos (I call them "brain checks" due to my long association with IBM 360/370's) because I see so many in my own posts! 8^) The higher pressure in the low r vicinity squishes the fluid out like toothpaste from a tube I take it. >Fluid being >fluid, it flows away from this region; but that reduces the local r still >more, leads to greater local magnetic pressure, etc etc unstable runaway. >The column pinches off someplace. The displaced metal shows up someplace >else, just like you describe below. (BTW, this is not just theory. I've >seen it myself back in my early days when I did some liquid metal MHD >experiments.) > [snip] Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 16:29:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06835; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001001bd6734$10aac7f0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:29:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"9qhYT1.0.hg1.6yfCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17549 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Ed Wall >I have heard many people say that it is bad for lead-acid batteries to be >stored on concrete or steel floors, but nobody seems to have an explanation >as to why. Easy answer..... Your not suppose to store lead batteries at all. You are suppose to transmute them into precious metals! Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 17:06:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12702; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804140000.TAA06517 neon.prysm.net> From: "Robert Calloway" To: Subject: Re: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:27:18 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f5pCx.0.L63.RUgCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17550 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello Ed! I once went to a electrical school, and one day was spent on nothing but batteries. They ensured us that if a battery case was of good make and material that you could set it anywhere you wished with no problem. I have found that to be true. We set them everywhere in the shop with no apparent drop in voltage or amps if its a good battery. Robert. ---------- > From: Ed Wall > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? > Date: Monday, April 13, 1998 4:49 PM > > Vo, > > I have heard many people say that it is bad for lead-acid batteries to be > stored on concrete or steel floors, but nobody seems to have an explanation > as to why. Is this received wisdom based upon anything you people care to > comment? > > Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 17:11:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01349; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:07:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:07:14 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F089A xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:06:28 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"dJy3D1.0.zK.mYgCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17551 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed I believe there was something to this when the housings were made with hard rubber, but the batteries nowadays are made with a plastic. Basically the heat conduction is lower, so less heat is lost to cold concrete floors, and the warmer batteries have more capacity. Hank > ---------- > From: Ed Wall[SMTP:ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 2:49 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? > > Vo, > > I have heard many people say that it is bad for lead-acid batteries to > be > stored on concrete or steel floors, but nobody seems to have an > explanation > as to why. Is this received wisdom based upon anything you people > care to > comment? > > Ed Wall > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 19:51:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06015; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:49:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:49:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3532CDA7.B605B3E7 ipass.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:44:55 -0400 From: "Warren A. Huyck" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F089A xch-cpc-02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Pjgjr2.0.oT1.swiCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17552 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: It's not that mysterious. Concrete floors are cold - they conduct heat well. This cools the battery, which can cause a film of moisture to condense on the battery (just like it does on the floor). This moisture can form a (poor but not negligable) conducting path between the battery terminals and cause a small (but significant in the long run) drainage current. Put it on wood, and it is better insulated (thermally). Scudder, Henry J wrote: > Ed > I believe there was something to this when the housings were > made with hard rubber, but the batteries nowadays are made with a > plastic. Basically the heat conduction is lower, so less heat is lost to > cold concrete floors, and the warmer batteries have more capacity. > > Hank > > > ---------- > > From: Ed Wall[SMTP:ewall-rsg worldnet.att.net] > > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Sent: Monday, April 13, 1998 2:49 PM > > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > > Subject: Lead-Acid Battery myth or not? > > > > Vo, > > > > I have heard many people say that it is bad for lead-acid batteries to > > be > > stored on concrete or steel floors, but nobody seems to have an > > explanation > > as to why. Is this received wisdom based upon anything you people > > care to > > comment? > > > > Ed Wall > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 13 20:49:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21032; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <1b9045f2.3532dbb3 aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:44:49 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"8qzOU.0.X85.2njCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17553 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Thanks to all for the suggestions, pointers, tips, ect. on plugging my leaks. The new manifold, constructed of 1/2 inch type L copper pipe, 200 psi rated valves is solid. It has held vacuum for 24 hours with no signs of leaks. Sooo... I did some preliminary temperature testing for a couple of hours this evening. Just pumping best vacuum for 2 hours with the arc on (bake no shake) then closing off the reactor tube and take temperature readings every 10 minutes. (ambient air temp also). Temperature very stable at highest arc power at 5KHz frequency at 105.5 C. This is my baseline. Next to do is arc in Argon at selected pressures. After that, the same protocall with H2 (sigh,...still no H2 stuff). I am very satisfied with the new manifold. Very sturdy. Thanks Scott. If I hadn't already had the 1/4 inch tubing manifold built when you suggested 1/2 stuff I could have saved myself some time by going the 1/2 inch route. But the 1/4 inch manifold looked so nice and I, being a stubborn s.o.b.. just _had_ to finish it and, in the end, fail. The good news is I got a lot of practice sweating copper. All just solder under the bridge now. The new manifold is tight and right!. Will visit the evil gas passer tomorrow to see whats up with the H2. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 03:21:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA32060; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:15:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:15:42 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <006401bd678d$e047e660$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 04:12:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"KsBdV2.0.nq7.CTpCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17554 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: As posted on Sun 4/12/98 it can be shown that the Earth *can* exert a force of 379 newtons on a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop. However, due to relativistic time-dilation effects (a gamma of 2.45E16) the 379 newtons is reduced by 379/2.45E16 = 1.55E-14 newtons with a "conventional" 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop. :-( There are a couple of choices that I can think of to resolve this dilemma. 1, Increase the current to 6.46E13 Amperes. 2, Increase the circumference of the loop to 6.46E13 meters! OR? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 06:26:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17718; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:24:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:24:38 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:18:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: "Frederick J. Sparber" cc: Vortex-L , George Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma In-Reply-To: <006401bd678d$e047e660$438cbfa8 default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"t8dnQ3.0.lK4.LEsCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17555 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: y So why not 100,000 turns? Is pushing against the earth's magnetic field AG? Or is this pushing ..or pulling... against something else. J On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > To Vortex: > > As posted on Sun 4/12/98 it can be shown that the Earth *can* exert a force > of 379 newtons on > a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop. > > However, due to relativistic time-dilation effects (a gamma of 2.45E16) the > 379 newtons > is reduced by 379/2.45E16 = 1.55E-14 newtons > with a "conventional" 1.0 Ampere-Meter current > loop. :-( > > There are a couple of choices that I can think of to resolve this dilemma. > > 1, Increase the current to 6.46E13 Amperes. > > 2, Increase the circumference of the loop to > 6.46E13 meters! > > OR? > > Regards, Frederick > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 07:57:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30074; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:48:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:48:21 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:47:41 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"ohPKt1.0.qL7.pStCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17556 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-13 23:47:51 EDT, I wrote: > Temperature very stable at > highest arc power at 5KHz frequency at 105.5 C. This is my baseline. > Next to do is arc in Argon at selected pressures. After that, the same > protocall with H2. Some clarification here so everyone knows what I am trying to do. I will establish a _baseline_ temperature for each run. (1) arc in vacuum.......completed 105.5 C 5KHz (2) arc in argon (3) arc in H2 Then: (4) arc in vacuum with K (5) arc in argon with K (6) arc in H2 with K I want to see any temperature _difference_ between the runs. I will not attempt (at this time) to measure the power in vs power out. That is calorimetry and is presently beyond my ability to measure with the equipment at hand. If, (a big if), I see a large temperature difference between the runs at baseline and the runs with the K metal in the tube, I will consider going ahead with calorimetry/power measurments. Some observations from last nights arc in vacuum run. The tungsten filiment stub electrodes glow at bright red to yellow heat with the arc on at full power in vacuum. (How much power is full power? I have no idea, but it really doesn't matter at this time.) After shutting down and examining the quartz reactor tube there was what appeared to be metallic tungsten deposited on the walls of the tube near the electrodes. The area of the tube between the electrodes was still clear. This is a silvery bluish metallic colored coating semi transparent. (Like I have seen in commercial vacuum tubes in a radio or television set) Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 08:20:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01834; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:18:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:18:35 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <007f01bd67b8$2a443b40$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Fw: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:15:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"lAfhK.0.ZS.AvtCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17557 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: Frederick J. Sparber Cc: Vortex-L ; George Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 7:25 AM Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma >y > > So why not 100,000 turns? Great Idea, John. Now you're talking only 6.46E8 Amperes/newton! :-) Regards, Frederick > > Is pushing against the earth's magnetic field AG? Or is this >pushing ..or pulling... against something else. > > J > >On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> To Vortex: >> >> As posted on Sun 4/12/98 it can be shown that the Earth *can* exert a force >> of 379 newtons on >> a 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop. >> >> However, due to relativistic time-dilation effects (a gamma of 2.45E16) the >> 379 newtons >> is reduced by 379/2.45E16 = 1.55E-14 newtons >> with a "conventional" 1.0 Ampere-Meter current >> loop. :-( >> >> There are a couple of choices that I can think of to resolve this dilemma. >> >> 1, Increase the current to 6.46E13 Amperes/newton. >> >> 2, Increase the circumference of the loop to >> 6.46E13 meters/newton! >> >> OR? >> >> Regards, Frederick >> >> > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 08:24:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02145; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:20:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:20:13 -0700 Message-ID: <005b01bd67b9$9a3b4c30$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Interesting email Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:25:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"h6s_z.0.KX.hwtCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17558 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I find the following email interesting for it crosses the line of science and politics. I receive approximately two of these letters per day some with a little more hatred. Just thought that I would share one of the nicer ones. Joe, I'm gathering info for an important decision I have to make. If you could answer a question for me it would be very helpful. My wife and I have most of our life savings in gold/platinum bullion and swiss francs. As luck would have it, we bought this stuff in 1995 at the highest price levels. Since then, we have been waiting for a rally to get out of it. We have watched the price fall for 3 agonizing years. What I am trying to decide is if it is time a take a 25 - 30% loss or to keep waiting for that ever elusive gold/swiss franc rally. How long do you think we have before the artificial synthesis info is made public? If you were in my place, would you keep holding on, or cut your losses. I know you would rather not respond to such questions, but this is financial life or death for me. Please write back. [signed] I removed the signature line. Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 08:28:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03066; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:26:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:26:48 -0700 Message-ID: <006201bd67ba$8750f650$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Additional information Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:32:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"qN4uY2.0.ol.t0uCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17559 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Additional experiments which have worked for us are now posted on the Internet. Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 08:32:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19823; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:28:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:27:48 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"EhQfX.0.fr4.p2uCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17560 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeraqm wrote: >Some clarification here so everyone knows what I am trying to do. >I will establish a _baseline_ temperature for each run. > >(1) arc in vacuum.......completed 105.5 C 5KHz >(2) arc in argon >(3) arc in H2 > >Then: >(4) arc in vacuum with K >(5) arc in argon with K >(6) arc in H2 with K > >I want to see any temperature _difference_ between the runs. >I will not attempt (at this time) to measure the power in vs power out. > That is calorimetry and is presently beyond my ability to measure >with the equipment at hand. >If, (a big if), I see a large temperature difference between the runs at >baseline and the runs with the K metal in the tube, I will consider >going ahead with calorimetry/power measurments. You WILL have to do calorimetry and input power measurements eventually. The volt-amp characteristic of the discharge changes with gas composition (that includes presence or absence of K, too) and gas pressure. Temperature changes with power, of course, but it can also change with gas thermal conductivity. With all these variables and more, you will have to measure more than just temperature. However, you seem to be making a good start learning basic vacuum technology. I encourage you to continue. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 09:05:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07590; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:57:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:57:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:56:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804141556.KAA21790 dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Additional information To: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"aLYGu3.0.Us1.bTuCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17561 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: April 14, 1998 Joe & Vortex, There was a celebration of a girl's prize winning high school science project that was posted here a short while back. This was, I believe, a transmutation project ala your process to produce gold. Why not make available the detailed recipe and process for this 'flash transmutation in a can' at that level of expertise? Those attracted in replicating the process, with at least high school abilities in science, can try their 'chemical thumbs' out. Or is the whole thing still sworn to secrecy, even with public results? -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 09:08:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27105; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <353388BA.327B4EDC css.mot.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:03:06 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting email References: <005b01bd67b9$9a3b4c30$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"IEdSX1.0.Od6.SbuCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17562 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe Champion wrote: > I find the following email interesting for it crosses the line of science > and politics. I receive approximately two of these letters per day some > with a little more hatred. Just thought that I would share one of the nicer > ones. Thanks for sharing. The same could be said for precious gems, as they are creating most every one in the lab now too. The more consciencious suppliers are doping them with flourescent material to identify them, but I would expect some labs don't. The twist on that side of the fence is the natural 'imperfections' that used to devalue gemstones are quickly becoming a value adding feature. The flaws are the only way to identify them as natural formed. Lab created stones are predominantly near flawless due to the controlled enviroment in which the crystals are able to grow in. Anyway to isotopically 'tag' your material? You may decrease the 'hate mail' by doing so. The naturally occuring stuff already in circulation could then create it's own market niche like natural gemstones did. Introducing a taggant could greatly lessen the economic impact of this new source of raw material. Just a suggestion...... 8^) -- John E. Steck Prototype Tool Engineering Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 09:23:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29565; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:20:55 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-L eskimo.com Cc: monteverde worldnet.att.net Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:07:07 -0700 Subject: Re: torsion fields ? Message-ID: <19980414.090741.12166.0.tv juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16,18-31 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"XD9dn3.0.tD7.apuCr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17563 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rick, Thanks for the info about torsion fields. Checkout this: http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/tors/spin1.html Claims it generates a torsion field beam. Now how do you detect it ? Maybe your rocks would detect it. or maybe Hodewonec's capacitor detects respond to this or maybe the Shannon's barkhausen detector. Maybe you could modulate for a communications link ? Tim ( tv juno.com ) On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:10:04 -1000 Rick Monteverde writes: >Tim - > > > How do you generate a torsion field ? > > How do you modulate it ? > > How do you detect it ? > >See the Wallace patents on Bill beaty's web site. > > - Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 14:18:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26784; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:44:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:44:06 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006201bd67ba$8750f650$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:43:37 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Additional information Resent-Message-ID: <"JSwGl1.0.LY6.LgyCr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17564 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe - Sealing a crucible with kilo of lead and other stuff in it and raising it to 1700 F. sounds interesting. Is the crucible supposed to have a pinhole vent, or is it really sealed up? What sort of crucible do you use for this? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 16:11:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09144; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:04:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <005b01bd67b9$9a3b4c30$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:53:31 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"5s2Zr1.0.nE2.dj-Cr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17565 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe - > My wife and I have most of our life savings in > gold/platinum bullion and swiss francs. Joe, e-mail them a quarter so they can buy a clue. It doesn't take a financial whiz to see the folly of that inventment strategy from any point of view with regard to synthesizing precious metals or anything else. I'd give them info about their nearest American Express Financial Seminar or whatever it is those people keep junk-calling me about at dinner time, and wish them luck. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 16:11:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23369; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:09:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:09:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD67D0.2D915680 pm3-147.gpt.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Magnetic charge experiments Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:07:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA23311 Resent-Message-ID: <"y2fA41.0.vi5.uo-Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17566 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello all: Sorry about the crosspost. I'm trying to get the biggest audience to respond. I will try to explain this setup as best as I can: A scientist named V.F. Mikhailov conducted an experiment to attempt to confirm the ideas of T.W. Barrett, who believes that light of a specific type can create EM phenomena of higher field symmetry than U(1) symmetry, and that such effects could interact with regular EM phenomena. He also proposed the possibility of creating a 'magnetic charge'. Mikhailov conducted an experiment where ferromagnetic aerosols behaved as if they had a magnetic charge, reversing motions when the magnetic fields in the experim ent were reversed. The ferromagnetic particles were suspended between two electromagnetic hemholtz coils, and were bathed with light of fixed polarization modulation. No effect on particle trajectories was noted. When the light was polarization modulated, the particles oscillated with respect to their motion in the magnetic field. Barrett responded to the experiment in a paper titled: "The Ehrenhoft-Mikhailov Effect Described as the Behavior of a Low Energy Density Magnetic Monopole-Instanton", Annales de la Foundation Louis de Broglie, 19, p. 291. If anyone can get this paper, let me know. Comments? Kyle Randall Mcallister Email: stk sunherald.infi.net Phone: 228-875-0629 Fax: 228-872-5837 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 16:20:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26565; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:19:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:19:10 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00cc01bd67fb$4f865da0$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Interesting email Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:16:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"97L_d1.0.-U6.ix-Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17567 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 5:04 PM Subject: Re: Interesting email I think that "pinhole" you asked about is between your stupid ears Monteverde. And obviously big enough to drive an 18-wheeler Through! You"re sucking up to probably the SCAM of THE DECADE to use the Internet to drive down the price of Precious metals no matter who it hurts. I'll donate a lot more than a QUARTER for someone to teach you a lesson you won't foget. GET IT? FJS >Joe - > > > My wife and I have most of our life savings in > > gold/platinum bullion and swiss francs. > >Joe, e-mail them a quarter so they can buy a clue. It doesn't take a >financial whiz to see the folly of that inventment strategy from any point >of view with regard to synthesizing precious metals or anything else. I'd >give them info about their nearest American Express Financial Seminar or >whatever it is those people keep junk-calling me about at dinner time, and >wish them luck. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 16:56:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01819; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:53:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:53:36 -0700 Posted-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:49:12 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <3533F687.CD4BD6B3 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:51:35 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: new/old mars face comparison References: <001401bd61b7$ecb7a650$cb4addcf craig> <35299788.EF1@math.ucla.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"KXNhV3.0.BS.zR_Cr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17568 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Very depth analysis and comparaisons on Tom Van Flandern, Meta Research site. http://www.metaresearch.org/ The http://www.metaresearch.org/images/compare.gif is very impressive Caption is at http://www.metaresearch.org/announce/pa45-cyd.htm Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 17:48:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12159; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:44:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:44:09 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:50:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Magnetic charge experiments Resent-Message-ID: <"si2nK3.0.uz2.NB0Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17569 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:07 PM 4/14/98, Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: >Hello all: > >Sorry about the crosspost. I'm trying to get the biggest audience to respond. > >I will try to explain this setup as best as I can: >A scientist named V.F. Mikhailov conducted an experiment to attempt to >confirm the ideas of T.W. Barrett, who believes that light of a specific >type can create EM phenomena of higher field symmetry than U(1) symmetry, >and that such effects could interact with regular EM phenomena. He also >proposed the possibility of creating a 'magnetic charge'. Mikhailov >conducted an experiment where ferromagnetic aerosols behaved as if they >had a magnetic charge, reversing motions when the magnetic fields in the >experiment were reversed. The ferromagnetic particles were suspended >between two electromagnetic hemholtz coils, and were bathed with light of >fixed polarization modulation. No effect on particle trajectories was >noted. When the light was polarization modulated, the particles oscillated >with respect to their motion in the magnetic field. Barrett responded to >the experiment in a paper titled: "The Ehrenhoft-Mikhailov Effect >Described as the Behavior of a Low Energy Density Magnetic Mo! >nopole-Instanton", Annales de la Foundation Louis de Broglie, 19, p. 291. >If anyone can get this paper, let me know. > >Comments? >Kyle Randall Mcallister >Email: stk sunherald.infi.net >Phone: 228-875-0629 >Fax: 228-872-5837 The following is extracted from a post made by me to the atigravity list some moons ago: In regard to the above issues, Robert Stirniman brought to my attention "Advanced Electromagnetism Foundations, Theories and Applications", edited by Terrence W. Barrett and Dale M. Grimes, World Scientific Publishing, 1995. Of particular interest is the article "Six experiments with Magnetic Charge", V.F. Mikhailov, p. 593 ff., which discusses a modern look at the work of Felix Eherenhaft (1879-1952). Eherenhaft performed the magnetic equivalence of a Millikan's oil drop experiment in the hopes of isolating magnetic monopoles and measuring magnetic charge. Surprisingly, Eherenhaft had positive results, obtaining a value for magnetic charge in the range of 10^-9 to 10^-14 Gauss*cm^2. Because this did not agree with Dirac's theorized value of 3.29x10^-8 gauss*cm^2, interest waned in Ehrenhafts work. Mikhailov created 10^-5 to 10^-6 cm dia. ferromagnetic aerosols by electrospark sputtering. This was accomplished by use of current interrupter iron contacts in argon at one atmosphere. Helmholtz coils provided a uniform magnetic field. The falling aerosol was placed in an intense light beam and viewed with a microscope. The initial experiment showed a roughly equal number of both N and S monopoles. Switching the field of the Helmholz coils reversed the lateral motion of the magnetically charged particles. It was noted that increasing *either* magnetic field intensity or light intensity increased the lateral rate of travel. Many of the particles were electrically and magnetically charged, permiting a comparison of the electrostatic quantum to the magnetic quantum of charge. Mikhailov found agreement with Eherenhaft that the quantum of magnetic charge is g = (a)(e)/6 = (1/3)(a^2)(gD) = 5.84x10^-13 gauss*cm^2, where Gd is the charge of Dirac's theoretical monopole, a is the fine structure constant a = (1/137). The monopoles of Eherenhaft and Mikhailov are not monopole particles in the conventional sense, however. Mikhailov states: "Magnetic charges (monopoles) are experimentally observed only in the presence of two components: light and ferromagnetic particles. It seems therefore, that magnetic charges are created a a consequence of of an interaction between photons ans ferromagnetic particles, and moreover, such charges cannnot exists without these physical conditions: without light a particle loses magnetic charge almost instantaneously." - - - - - - - Some observations in regard to Mikhailov's experiments: 1. Lateral motion observed in a uniform magnetic field, regadless of light direction, appears to be a clear violation of Maxwell's laws, regardless of other conclusions drawn by Mikhailov. The existence of a monopole of course also denies the law being the orginal subject, namely B dot dS = 0. 2. The magnetic charge, though apparently produced in pairs, is not conservative in that the dual requirements for existence imply you can separate the N and S particles, turn off the light which sustains, say, the S particles, leaving only the N particles. (Save a sufficient number and you can lift off the North magnetic pole! 8^) 3. There might just possibly be a convenient way for amateurs to experiment with this. There now exist ferrofluids which could be used in Millikan style experiments. Since sputtering would not be involved, it might be necessary to artificially charge the drops when atomizing the ferrofluid. Bill Beaty posted 9/23/96 that ferrofluid might be available from Ferrofluidics Inc. I checked and found , email: , phone 603-883-9800. They sell 30 ml kits for prototyping loudspeakers. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 18:07:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15917; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:04:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:04:18 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00eb01bd6809$df179160$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Tim D Vaughan" Cc: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Interesting email Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:00:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"VbwtR.0.cu3.GU0Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17570 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Tim D Vaughan To: fjsparb sprintmail.com Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:42 PM Subject: Re: Interesting email Guilty Tim. I am extremely sensitive to heartbreak of innocent people, especially when those whom are indifferent might help cause it. Joe Champion (if that is his real name) is either totally insane-stupid, or may be part of a scheme to drive down the price of precious metals and pick up a tidy sum when the price rebounds after ruining or costing the lives of thousands of innocent people. The vortex list is an idea forum for a lot of good people, and hopefully not a vehicle for grandiose SCAMS. Maybe "Joe" is on the up-and-up, but you just don't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. :-( Regards, Frederick >FJS, did you blow a cerebral circuit breaker ? > >You usually have such interesting ideas. >I hate to see insults on my favorite email list . > >:( > >Tim Vaughan > > writes: >>I think that "pinhole" you asked about is between your stupid ears >>etc......(and other ugly stuff) > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 18:47:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23409; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:42:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:42:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:49:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"PkhIG2.0.hj5.X21Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17571 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:53 AM 4/14/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Joe - > > > My wife and I have most of our life savings in > > gold/platinum bullion and swiss francs. > >Joe, e-mail them a quarter so they can buy a clue. It doesn't take a >financial whiz to see the folly of that inventment strategy from any point >of view with regard to synthesizing precious metals or anything else. I'd >give them info about their nearest American Express Financial Seminar or >whatever it is those people keep junk-calling me about at dinner time, and >wish them luck. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI More than 10 percent in precious metals is typically considered a bad policy. It's definitely been a bad strategy in the recent past, but may pay off for the above folks handsomely in the next year or so. Banks are mering into bigger and bigger institutions. Bankruptcies are at an all time high. Real estate is going out of sight due to low interest rates. The national debt is only affordable due to the "eye surgery" performed on interest rates by the Federal reserve. An interest rate reversal can cause a real estate market crash. Terrorist threats to the finanial infostructure are at an all time high. It's also maybe just a matter of time before Iraq gets caught in the act of its doings and the oil market booms up once again. The stock market is doing great partialy due to the flowing of cash into the market because there is nowhere else in world to put it, partially due to the Eastern market crunches. Even Switzerland is no longer the dependable haven it once was, due to the possible cloud of appropriation of WWII Jewish assets, etc. US stocks are at an unrealistic premium. El nino and other environmental threats could rock selected insurance companies, threatening their annuities, and stock values. The giant tobacco conglomerates are under assault in the US. It's obviously just a matter of time before foreign governments join the feeding frenzy on them. Worst of all, stock market investor optimisim is totally beyond all rationality. Personally, I would be amazed to see the market much over 10,000 before the crash hits, but it could be much sooner. If I had some spare cash not destined for college tuition, I'd be buying precious metals. A workable farm may be a better deal for those who like to eat. Even if Joe's scheme works, it seems unlikely the volume of production could affect the world supply of precious metals in the next year or so sufficiently to affect those folk's decision. I just hope for their sake their investments in metals aren't in the form of paper instead of the real thing. Gold, especially, partly due to the workings of the Fed., is at a bargain basement price. If I had a newsletter I'd be screaming buy! Buy! Joe, I hope you will pass this post on to those people in the interest of presenting a balanced view! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:15:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10254; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:16:21 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"j7CdJ.0.5W2.yS1Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17572 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I just wrote: "Joe, I hope you will pass this post on to those people in the interest of presenting a balanced view!" Of course - please add the proper caveat, which I forgot to note. It is well understood I hope, and has regularly been stated on vortex, I have no experience or background to qualify me to comment on matters of physics. Let me be sure I have extended that caveat to matters of finance as well! In fact, I suppose that could be extended to all matters except that of being a tired and retired old curmudgeon. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:24:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01487; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:21:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:21:19 -0700 Message-ID: <3534189B.3AE5 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:16:59 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: Searl Rotation, Sweet VTA, Negative electricity] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------57D06E936A44" Resent-Message-ID: <"nBGja1.0.9N.Tc1Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17573 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------57D06E936A44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gnorts and Huzza! Thought you guys should read this that was posted on the Keelynet list......the searchable public archives for all KeelyNet-L discussions are posted at; http://www.escribe.com/science/keely if you might want to drop in occasionally to check out what is being said or going on.... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 --------------57D06E936A44 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from lists.kz (root.starfire.douglas.ma.us [207.180.91.8]) by centurion.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA08804 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:53:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 7764 invoked by alias); 15 Apr 1998 01:05:30 -0000 Mailing-List: contact KeelyNet-L-help lists.kz; run by ezmlm Reply-To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz Delivered-To: mailing list KeelyNet-L lists.kz Received: (qmail 7755 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1998 01:05:29 -0000 Received: from endeavor.flash.net (209.30.0.40) by mail.starfire.douglas.ma.us with SMTP; 15 Apr 1998 01:05:29 -0000 Received: from dmdxojez (dasc34-183.flash.net [209.30.136.183]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA29533; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:52:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <353403CA.228C keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:48:10 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz CC: Tebearden aol.com Subject: Re: Searl Rotation, Sweet VTA, Negative electricity References: <3533FC8E.7D0DE5E5 adeptit.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Doug, TOM, et al! With regard to COLD CURRENT & NEGATIVE ELECTRICITY, that amazingly astute Doug Renner.......( dougr adeptit.com ) wrote; > Now WHAT IF the Sweet VTA and the Searl Effect Generator PULL THE > ELECTRONS through the conductors? What if these devices "suck" the > electrons out of one end of a conductor at an electronic pressure > which is LOWER than would normally be found in the conductor at > rest? I'd be willing to bet that this "negative electricity" > actually travels down the center of the conductor - not at the > surface. That is one of the best explanations I have EVER seen regarding "WHAT IS NEGATIVE ELECTRICITY or 'COLD CURRENT'?" as used in Sweet VTA type devices. Got to send this one to Bearden!! This also correlates wonderfully with Schaubergers' IMPLOSION and the claim by Rory Johnson and Gerald Orlowski that magnetic energy ATTRACTS to itself, whereas electricity REPELS from itself; http://www.dnai.com/~zap/rory.htm Thanks Doug for sharing that!!! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 --------------57D06E936A44-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:28:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12433; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:29:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"2DCPm3.0.723.9f1Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17574 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 5:16 PM 4/14/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >I think that "pinhole" you asked about is between your stupid ears >Monteverde. When I visted Chicken, Alaska, I thought how nice it might be to live there. Except by air, it is totally isolated in winter. There was a sign entering the town which said: "Chicken, Alaska, population 23 - and one old grouch." I thought, no, if we moved there it would ruin the charm. The sign would have to say: "Chicken, Alaska, population 27 - and two old grouches." Spend any time in Chicken Fred? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:29:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03468; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:26:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:26:31 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <011201bd6815$64dc4100$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Interesting email Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:22:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"u6VEo2.0.3s.Kh1Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17575 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace wrote: Snip, a lot of good sense! I went out to Multi-Echo Canyon and shouted it out aloud. Followed by "Agreed?" The response was unanimous. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:34:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05385; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:32:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:32:16 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <011901bd6816$44761340$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Interesting email Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:29:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"1YXct1.0.3K1.lm1Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17576 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Interesting email >At 5:16 PM 4/14/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >> >>I think that "pinhole" you asked about is between your stupid ears >>Monteverde. > >When I visted Chicken, Alaska, I thought how nice it might be to live >there. Except by air, it is totally isolated in winter. There was a sign >entering the town which said: "Chicken, Alaska, population 23 - and one old >grouch." I thought, no, if we moved there it would ruin the charm. The >sign would have to say: "Chicken, Alaska, population 27 - and two old >grouches." > >Spend any time in Chicken Fred? Gee No, Horace, But, if I perchance had one that laid "Golden Eggs", be darned if I would be selling the "peeps". :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:36:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05798; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:34:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:34:00 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980414223618.00666bf8 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:36:21 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: Re: Interesting email Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"F9AgM1.0.SQ1.Mo1Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17577 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Some points of interest: 1) Joe Champion has been around for a while; I remember seeing ads for a book of his from the ITS some 5 years ago or so. 2) I have visited his web site as well, which has gone through some substantial changes in the past year or so. 3) One of Vortex's members, Barry Merriman (sp?), has been in close communication with Joe trying to replicate these ideas. This fact was revealed several months ago on the list, and confirmed by Barry. and MOST important... 4) Several experiments have been posted to the site, which are within the reach of most of the members of this Listserv. If the experiments prove positive, then we have a remarkable puzzle to solve. If they prove negative ( like many we discuss ) then we all learn something, and move on. I for one am skeptical, but I appreciate the fact that a real experiment has been presented for replication. Please, lets discuss the experiments. Barry? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 19:55:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11611; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:48:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:48:32 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:47:54 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"7bU142.0.5r2.z_1Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17578 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace - I agree, especially with your farm comment. If it all really does melt down, few if any traditional financial vehicles will still have their wheels on 'em, so it's all a big risk in that sense. I think my sarcastic humor had practical components to it: keeping one's life savings in volatile commodities is considered a little less conventional than cold fusion or low energy transmutation, and Joe should probably shy away from giving specific financial advice to individuals and instead direct such queries (if he really does recieve posts like that) to those qualified to advise people on their portfolios. I'm sorry if anybody took my comments as a lack of compassion, but I tend to take many of the claims and announcements made on the net with a grain of salt, and a little something else sometimes to keep my blood sugar up where I don't take it all too seriously. If Joe can prove his claims, then more power to him. So far, the experiences of Mallove & Co. and Merriman have been disappointing. That's the context in which, and the mindset from which, I posted. 'Nuff said, moving on. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 20:49:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22047; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:46:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00eb01bd6821$df916860$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: Interesting email Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:52:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"TVfbI3.0.AO5.as2Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17579 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Frederick J. Sparber To: Tim D Vaughan Cc: Vortex-L Date: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:05 PM Subject: Re: Interesting email Frederick, >Joe Champion (if that is his real name) is either totally insane-stupid, or >may be part of a scheme to drive down the price of precious metals and pick >up a tidy sum when the price rebounds after ruining or costing the lives of >thousands of innocent people. 1. To set the record straight, my full name is Joe E. Champion. I have been a member of the Vortex list for three years. 2. Even with great controversy on the subject of transmutation, I have worked with Dan York a vortex member for the past three years. 3. I have worked with Mark Hugo a sleeper on Vortex in the past. 4. There are four high school students from the US and seven between Europe and the Philippines that read this thread to learn more about my research and research of others. 5. Egene Mallove and Mitch Swartz are in the mist of attempting replication. >The vortex list is an idea forum for a lot of good people, and hopefully not >a vehicle for grandiose SCAMS. 6. I have no problem with inflammatory remarks. But be a man about it and either email privately, or telephone. Don't allow your immaturity affect the students who lurk on this thread to learn think that one cannot have a decent interchange. >Maybe "Joe" is on the up-and-up, but you just don't yell "Fire" in a crowded >theater. 7. Who is yelling fire? I have the right on this thread to share opinions of others just as you do. This is only a small fragment of mail on this subject that I receive on a weekly basis. You don't have to do anything for me, but before you post remember the thoughts on this thread may have an impact of the new researchers of the future! Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 21:04:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28189; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35343F6D.30D3 vom.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:02:37 -0800 From: Rex Doane Reply-To: rdoane vom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Interesting email References: <005b01bd67b9$9a3b4c30$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"o4VH-2.0.Nu6.153Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17580 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe Champion wrote: > > I find the following email interesting for it crosses the line of science > and politics. I receive approximately two of these letters per day some > with a little more hatred. Just thought that I would share one of the nicer > ones. > > Joe, > > I'm gathering info for an important decision I have to make. If > you could answer a question for me it would be very helpful. My wife > and I have most of our life savings in gold/platinum bullion and swiss > francs. As luck would have it, we bought this stuff in 1995 at the > highest price levels. Since then, we have been waiting for a rally to > get out of it. We have watched the price fall for 3 agonizing years. > What I am trying to decide is if it is time a take a 25 - 30% loss or to > keep waiting for that ever elusive gold/swiss franc rally. How long do > you think we have before the artificial synthesis info is made public? > If you were in my place, would you keep holding on, or cut your losses. > I know you would rather not respond to such questions, but this is > financial life or death for me. Please write back. > As a one-time professional investor, I learned that the only price a commodity has is what it is right now. The market doesn't care what you paid and it certainly doesn't care whether you want the price to go up (or down). If you're not comfortable with an investment, dump it - never hold on. If you're so sure the price is going down, go short! Or at least protect your position with options - that's what they are for. A general rule of thumb -- buy into a market when you are very confident it's going your way. If you see a counter-movement, get out - you missed this one. Just like in baseball, you don't need to bat 1.000 to be successful (or even .500). Rex From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 21:27:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01365; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <00f701bd6826$f46704c0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Furthermore Frederick Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:28:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"cy-vu.0.CL.AQ3Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17581 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Transmutation, Low energy nuclear reactions, cold fusion and related topics are on the fringe area. In the past I have made posts regarding observations. However, to my knowledge I am the only person who has had an open door policy for "qualified researchers" to come and view. Furthermore, without the cloak of secrecy like some of the groups CETI, et al, or the selling of kits I have present experiments on the Internet for the past three years that "some" have observed anomalies. Full experimental protocol of my research at Texas A&M can be found in the Journal of Scientific Exploration. Under no condition am I trying to say that I am correct in my observations, but at least I am open. If I am wrong and there is nothing to my claims other than contamination, or self deception, I welcome someone to step forward and set the record straight. Until that time I will continue in my plight. As a footnote, the replication of my work seems to be in the same league as many others in this field. This I accept, but it does not make my efforts wrong. Respectfully, a man with a mission, Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 21:40:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA32247; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:37:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:37:32 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <018a01bd6827$b64f3760$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: The Infrastructure Protection Task Force (IPTF) (http://www.fbi.gov/programs/ip Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:33:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD67F5.5D439300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"CgAu3.0.it7.Ac3Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17582 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD67F5.5D439300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.fbi.gov/programs/iptf/iptf.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD67F5.5D439300 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="The Infrastructure Protection Task Force (IPTF).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Infrastructure Protection Task Force (IPTF).url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.fbi.gov/programs/iptf/iptf.htm Modified=20811E9C2768BD01A8 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BD67F5.5D439300-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 21:41:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00009; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:38:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:38:39 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: [off-topic]Re: Interesting email Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:37:54 +0000 Message-ID: <19980415043752.AAA23137 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"b7dRj3.0.l_7.Cd3Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17583 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >Personally, I would be amazed to see the market much over 10,000 before the >crash hits, but it could be much sooner. If I had some spare cash not >destined for college tuition, I'd be buying precious metals. A workable >farm may be a better deal for those who like to eat. > > >Gold, especially, partly due to the workings of the Fed., is at a bargain >basement price. If I had a newsletter I'd be screaming buy! Buy! > Don't forget, Rick Monteverde, all that paper is ultimately backed by the promises of lying politicians and the 'good faith and credit of the American people.' The meaning of this phrase is taxes raised from our labor overtly or covertly via inflation. I was amazed to see the market break 7000, but I see the same view that you do, Horace. Today, however, I would not rule out a 20,000 DOW in a few years, given the incredible controls on society that are presently exercised and contemplated. Just for grins, did you see palladium hit $318 today? I remember it around $80 a few years ago. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 21:42:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00062; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:38:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:38:48 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <019701bd6827$ce66d1a0$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: FBI - ANSIR Program (http://www.fbi.gov/ansir/ansir.htm) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:34:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0194_01BD67F5.805451E0" Resent-Message-ID: <"diyN02.0.s_7.Dd3Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17584 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0194_01BD67F5.805451E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.fbi.gov/ansir/ansir.htm ------=_NextPart_000_0194_01BD67F5.805451E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="FBI - ANSIR Program.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="FBI - ANSIR Program.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.fbi.gov/ansir/ansir.htm Modified=A0F4506C2768BD019D ------=_NextPart_000_0194_01BD67F5.805451E0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 22:29:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10840; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:25:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980415043752.AAA23137 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:23:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [off-topic]Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"RHDmJ.0.If2.VJ4Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17586 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed - > Don't forget, Rick Monteverde, all that paper > is ultimately backed by the promises of lying > politicians... [snip] I don't know how I got into this. My advice was that the people be directed to qualified advisors as the most ethical and proper route to take in the particular situation that was proposed. I'm with Horace on this one too, not that that even matters. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 14 22:27:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10171; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:23:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:23:26 -0700 Message-ID: <012101bd682f$63f1bb20$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Question to all Vortex members Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:28:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"UCq2R1.0.oU2.CH4Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17585 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If Frederick drops a dime and receives a $500,000.00 reward for my conviction of creating economic havoc from the commercialization of low energy nuclear transmutation, does this mean that my research is accepted by the scientific community, or just the Justice system? Joe Champion http://www.transmutation.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 00:11:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19789; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:14:30 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [off-topic]Re: Interesting email Resent-Message-ID: <"CI_ps.0.6r4.Vq5Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17587 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 8:37 PM 4/14/98, Ed Wall wrote: [snip] >Just for grins, did you see palladium hit $318 today? I remember it around >$80 a few years ago. > >Ed Wall Jumpin' jelly beans! Do you think somebody has finally figured out a good use for the stuff? 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 02:12:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25581; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:08:12 +0200 (MET DST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hmZfJ3.0.YF6.4c7Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17588 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The recent posting by Joe Champion of an email allegedly from a couple with their life savings in Precious metals and Swiss Francs brought forth a number of the usual "the sky is about to fall on us" type prouncements from vortexians. These are typically on the vein of "The USA economy is about to fall in a black hole better get into something safe now", which in turn are variations of the general theme espoused by the club of Rome that the Human Race has consumed all the Earth's resources, population has grown too large, we're about to witness mass starvation etc. etc. The Club of Rome first made these prouncements back in the early 1970's. Things were meant to get bad by the late 1970's. In fact as everyone knows, things in the world in general have got considerably better since the 1970's. The incidence of absolute poverty has declined considerably, the price of raw commodities (that measure the relative scarcity of inputs) has fallen in real terms since then. The Western world has also got much wealthier since then. Never-the-less the same people who made these firm predictions continue to tell us that it will go horribly wrong in just a few years. Even though their success rate of catastrophy prediction is worse than a tabloid physcic, they continue to find many who believe them. In the USA the decade of 1990's have been one long boom. The Federal Budget is balanced, inflation is low, economic growth is strong, unemployment is a record low, yet still we hear people saying "get into Precious Metals, its all going to come unstuck." I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to beliefs in the face of obvious contradictory evidence. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 05:24:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14010; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:22:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:22:41 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980415072305.0090cdf0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:23:05 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Kz7bV1.0.nQ3.FQADr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17589 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 AM 4/15/98 +0200, Martin Sevior wrote: >I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to beliefs in >the face of obvious contradictory evidence. Is that why you're on this list, Martin?.... Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 05:31:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15148; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:28:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:28:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:28:01 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter Reply-To: Cornwall RO To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [off topic]engineering/applied science Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"zJG511.0.bi3.WVADr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17590 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, I detect another war starting about just how long do you carry on with something and for how long? It's all so confusing. I cannot doubt people's integrity when they are good/in the limelight. If they have seen something they could be right or else they are deluded. I think its rare to see scam artists as one can weed them out by qualifications; the more a person has, the more they stand to lose. All I'm asking is how do you design experiments when you have no theory. Pure tinkering right. Nothing wrong with that. I was talking to someone who said if you have been trained as an engineer/scientist, you must feel like a 'fish out of water' when confronted with something genuinily new or poorly understood. It's all about what parameters to alter. My questions about CF. What are your parameters? Is it always done in an electrochemical setup? I understand now that it is being done in flames. Is fusion really going on? is it naive to think that there is some new non-brute force method of overcoming the Coulomb repulsion? (ie Miley sphere's give the nuclei uniform energy - not just the top of MB distrb) Just how are you getting your hunches on what to do next? I have been appearing to take the mickey asking why so long, why so much money. The answer to the money question is, I guess, that people want to disprove something so that if you are the competition in receipt of billions, why not spend 100million discrediting the opposition. I still have to ask though, at the end of the researches they produce a report, your opponent has done research for you and use of his report will help you, no? If they are deliberately using naff equipment or methods say why don't you try these?, we believe them to be the best/most current setup. But you've been through all of this writing critques, the mainstream must print the critques and respond. I don't understand the process of science here. Once something is discredited, it's hard to fight it back. It goes underground, is starved of the funding. Self fufilling prophecy, no progress so it must be wrong. Surely even the most bastard mainstream editor will respond to experiment or well wrought argument? People laugh at unorthodox science and they haven't even bothered to follow the arguments and developments, their mind's made up. They are experts in denial but don't do any work in a field. Also they are so worried about making mistakes and been made to look asses. Godsakes, if the public are paying you to enquire, go enquire. Universities have great potential for free thought and diverse enquiry but they chose instead to keep up with the Jones' I'm pissed off in Britain that nowhere is doing CF, new engy. tech, one can only meet people covertly in some park or cafe to discuss ideas with powerful people who have the resources/knowledge and usu. there is no follow-up. Please, Soo, Brits lets network we've got everything over here to make progress. Lots of disprate pockets of discontent with the orthodoxy but no concerted effort. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 05:40:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11530; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <35345399.48EB22AE mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:28:41 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off-topic]Re: Interesting email References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YV5ZA1.0.0q2.WfADr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17591 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 8:37 PM 4/14/98, Ed Wall wrote: > > Just for grins, did you see palladium hit $318 today? > I remember it around $80 a few years ago. > > Ed Wall > > Jumpin' jelly beans! Do you think somebody has > finally figured out a good use for the stuff? 8^) > > Regards, Horace Heffner Hi Horace, Maybe making Shipstones as in Robert Heinlein's novel "Friday"? I wonder what happened to Scott's BLP run # 14? Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 05:46:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12618; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <003101bd686b$9332a0c0$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:39:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ue2B62.0.253.JlADr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17592 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 6:23 AM Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). LOL! You Sly Dog. :-) Regards, Frederick >At 11:08 AM 4/15/98 +0200, Martin Sevior wrote: >>I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to >beliefs in >>the face of obvious contradictory evidence. > >Is that why you're on this list, Martin?.... > >Scott > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 06:53:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20442; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:50:45 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:48:22 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Interesting email Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"1qn5a1.0.K_4.oiBDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17593 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-14 21:06:17 EDT, you write: > The vortex list is an idea forum for a lot of good people, and hopefully not > a vehicle for grandiose SCAMS. > Maybe "Joe" is on the up-and-up, but you just don't yell "Fire" in a crowded > theater. :-( > Regards, Frederick Fred, I dont know if Joe is right or wrong but now that he has posted his details of the process it seems easy enough for someone on this list to try it and post results here. If I have some time I will call Joe and visit his facility. It's only 20 miles from my home. This area of cheap gold (Joe C) , cheap power (Blacklightpower) , will have profound economic impact IF true. Gold hoarders lose money, oil stock owners lose money ect. Progress of a sort, no? Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 07:07:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30748; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:04:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:04:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:00:07 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Seeing 30 milliwatts Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804151003_MC2-39EF-AEE0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"wo0Lp3.0.EW7.MvBDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17594 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Yesterday I purchased a "Limelight" brand nightlight for the hallway. It costs about $5 and comes with a lifetime guarantee. It is an electroluminescent green light. It consumes 30 milliwatts of power, and according to the package, it costs $0.02 per year to operate. Uhh . . . there are 86,400 seconds per day . . . so that's 0.3 KWH per year. Yup. The package has a web page: www.limelite.com. Anyway, my point is, this is a high efficiency light that converts most of the power to photons, and you can't miss 'em. The light is bright in dark room. It is difficult to measure 30 mw of heat with a calorimeter, but you cannot miss seeing that level of power in form of light. I expect you could measure it with precision. I got to thinking it is a shame we cannot make calorimeters that convert heat into light, something like a liquid scintillator neutron detector. Ne-213 scintillators incorporate photomultipliers that boost the signal millions of times. I suppose an optical calorimeter would have its own set of problems, just as water-based ones do, but it would be a different set of problems. Different instrument systems eliminate systematic errors. On the other hand, a sensitive calorimeter would encourage people to go after tiny levels of heat, which is a bad idea. Thermoelectric Seebeck calorimeters convert a fraction of the heat into electricity directly. In a sense, most calorimeters are thermoelectric because thermocouples convert a tiny amount of the heat in the water into a signal. A Seebeck calorimeter had hundreds of TC's, so it captures and converts a larger percent of the heat. Droege's calorimeter has a single large thermoelectric chip. The problem is the performance curve for the chip may not be linear or consistent over time. It has to be calibrated carefully. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 07:29:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03122; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:26:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:26:19 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804151426.JAA24371 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). In-Reply-To: from Martin Sevior at "Apr 15, 98 11:08:12 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:26:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Lfl843.0.hm.9ECDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17595 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior writes: > were meant to get bad by the late 1970's. In fact as everyone knows, things > in the world in general have got considerably better since the 1970's. The > incidence of absolute poverty has declined considerably, the price of raw > commodities (that measure the relative scarcity of inputs) has fallen in real > terms since then. The Western world has also got much wealthier since then. > > Never-the-less the same people who made these firm predictions continue to > tell us that it will go horribly wrong in just a few years. Even though their > success rate of catastrophy prediction is worse than a tabloid physcic, they > continue to find many who believe them. > > In the USA the decade of 1990's have been one long boom. The Federal Budget is > balanced, inflation is low, economic growth is strong, unemployment is a > record low, yet still we hear people saying "get into Precious Metals, its > all going to come unstuck." Martin, your basic point is sound. However, some significant aspect of the market is driven by human valuation -- meaning that what was once highly valued can turn worthless at a whim (such as a panic.) In the stock market, this is a potential for instability, since the price of shares is *always* based upon *expectations.* Such expectations can often diverge from underlying fundamentals and therefore, from time to time, the market corrects itself when the divergence becomes apparent. Some of us remember a few years ago when we were being told that Japan Inc was going to rule the world. Yet today Japan's economy is in disarray. Investments were made there that were based upon expectations that ultimately diverged from the underlying fundamentals -- the bubble burst. I can't point out where today's US economy has expectations that are diverging from fundamentals, but it is certainly a possibility that exists. So one must always diversify investments, and never bet one's life or life savings on a presumption of never reversing growth. The key is diversity, of course. Gold bugs of the 70's never did get their money back. So there is no single *safe* haven. In the long term, you are right -- the market will continue to expand. But in the short term, individual investments can be wiped out if a particular market segment undergoes serious changes. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 07:34:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28889; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980415084930.00b98858 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:49:30 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: BLP Run #14 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1kTr6.0.J37.3ICDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17596 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack Smith asked about Run #14.... We never saw a peep of excess heat and they never even lifted a finger to assist us. Thus, the BLP project has fallen from its "top priority" perch into the vast melting pot of "fundamental research projects we ought to do more work on". Faced with the choice of (1) working on a brand new experiment which might succeed or (2) working on an existing experiment which has failed multiple times...you can guess which way we tend to lean. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 08:46:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20248; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:42:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:42:25 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:41:14 -0400 From: Soo Subject: War?....What is it good for? Sender: Soo To: "vortex-L eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804151141_MC2-39FA-7924 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA20192 Resent-Message-ID: <"JkG123.0.8y4.VLDDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17597 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi < about just how long do you carry on with something and for how long?> As long as it takes. < if you have been trained as an engineer/scientist, you must feel like a 'fish out of water' when confronted with something genuinily new or poorly understood.> Part of the problem also is the invisible boundaries self-erected by scientists and engineers. More co-operation between the disciplines would help a lot. It's too much like relying on nuclear physicists to comment on electrolysis Myself and others are on the case with the networking aspect. For a start how about all the Brit scientists/engineers/general commentators based in the UK who frequent this list, regularly or casually, make themselves known. I'm attempting to compile a database with a view to establishing a directory of interested parties (UK). I know who the UK subscribers to I.E. magazine are....I don't know who pops in and out of this list. So tell me. Then, Remi, once we muster the "troops" we can attempt to start winning the war. Regards Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 09:12:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15778; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:14:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Resent-Message-ID: <"2f_TY.0.Os3.JlDDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17598 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:08 AM 4/15/98, Martin Sevior wrote: >I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to beliefs in >the face of obvious contradictory evidence. > >Martin Sevior Like people who buy into old companies at price multiples over 20? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 12:15:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03465; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:06:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:06:32 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980415150845.00975960 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:08:45 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"NsIDd.0.jr.rKGDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17599 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:51 PM 4/13/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >It looks like the above word "lower" is a typo, meaning "higher". I readiy >recognize typos (I call them "brain checks" due to my long association with >IBM 360/370's) because I see so many in my own posts! 8^) The higher >pressure in the low r vicinity squishes the fluid out like toothpaste from >a tube I take it. Like a pile driver sqashing a bug? Like the Big Bang? Like the implosions used in laser fusion? The key word in the original was "unstable." The narrower the pinch, the higher the pressure, until the pinch creates a big enough isulating gap to open the circut. (Why make such a big deal out of it? You guys are playing with molten metal at low current--anything not measured in kAmps is low current--but could get splashed. At higher currents, the pressures in a pinch can make the bottom of Earth oceans look like a vacuum. I've gotten over 100 MegaPascals out of an exploding wire, but not repeatably.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 12:38:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09723; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:33:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:33:20 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F089F xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:32:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"n-GUW2.0.qN2._jGDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17600 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How do you measure such a transient phenomenon? Hank > ---------- > From: Robert I. Eachus[SMTP:eachus mitre.org] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 12:08 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV > > At 02:51 PM 4/13/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: > >It looks like the above word "lower" is a typo, meaning "higher". I > readiy > >recognize typos (I call them "brain checks" due to my long > association with > >IBM 360/370's) because I see so many in my own posts! 8^) The > higher > >pressure in the low r vicinity squishes the fluid out like toothpaste > from > >a tube I take it. > > Like a pile driver sqashing a bug? Like the Big Bang? Like the > implosions used in laser fusion? > > The key word in the original was "unstable." The narrower the > pinch, > the higher the pressure, until the pinch creates a big enough > isulating gap > to open the circut. (Why make such a big deal out of it? You guys > are > playing with molten metal at low current--anything not measured in > kAmps is > low current--but could get splashed. At higher currents, the > pressures in > a pinch can make the bottom of Earth oceans look like a vacuum. I've > gotten over 100 MegaPascals out of an exploding wire, but not > repeatably.) > > Robert I. Eachus > > with Standard_Disclaimer; > use Standard_Disclaimer; > function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 13:29:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28481; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980415162036.009258d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:20:36 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: RE: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV In-Reply-To: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F089F xch-cpc-02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"o9FJL3.0.uy6.nPHDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17601 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:32 PM 4/15/98 -0700, Scudder, Henry J wrote: >How do you measure such a transient phenomenon? >Hank Indirectly, I assure you. It all started out for me when I needed to determine the optical characteristics of a particular plasma. It turned out that the tranmission of the plasma depended, in part, on how much light from the plasma was reflected back into it. But--even though the plasma was created by an arc in a low pressure Xenon filled 9mm quartz tube--the center of the plasma was effectively opaque. We went into exploding wires as an "easy" way to watch what happened as the plasma formed and dissipated. To make a long story short, the pressure is determined by measuring the plasma temperature and the diameter of the pinch optically. (Fortunately, you could cross check by looking at the voltage and current.) Under perfect conditions I could explode a wire and have the resulting plasma be smaller in diameter than the wire for a few nanoseconds. (But only when I drew my own lithium, magnesium or aluminium wires from small blanks poured in vacuum, and then only with a success rate of 2-3%.) But we did conclude what we were looking for: in a successful wall-stabilized arc, there are concentric shells which don't mix while the current flows. Why spend so much money on "playing" with light sources? The smaller the source, the sharper the image. The sharper the image the more transistors you can fit on a chip. Of course, today things have gone from optical, to near UV (see above) to direct electron beam writing. By understanding the physics of the arc, we were able to reduce the feature size from 10 to 3 microns at 1 to 1. Of course, much more when photoreducing, down to the limit imposed by the frequency of the light. Successful experiments were in the tens of millions of Pascals. Getting more current into the central plasma pushed up the pressure. Failed experiments determined how sturdy the equipment was. ;-) Lots of fun, but I wouldn't recommend it without someone else to pay for the research. One week I broke over $1000 worth of quartz tubing. Not through clumsiness, every shot in that series, success or failure, broke one 2mm i.d. four inch quartz tube. (Week's result? Yes, the reflected shock wave did keep the following pulse centered with a high degree of accuracy. Why did every tube break? Because the reflected shock wave did keep the following pulse centered with a high degree of accuracy. We had a slit camera which showed that it was the second pulse, every time, that broke the tube.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 13:37:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00906; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35352733.48E8 macsrule.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:31:31 -0700 From: "Mark A. Collins" Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Superconductor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"G8Kyx1.0.-D.fbHDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17603 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In the first paragraph, I meant 45 degrees, not 40... Sorry Mark Anthony Collins "The MAC Man" themacman macsrule.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 13:40:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22301; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:26:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:26:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3535262F.5DBE macsrule.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:27:11 -0700 From: "Mark A. Collins" Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Anyone work with Superconductors? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y8qwY2.0.ES5.tVHDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17602 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I was wondering if any of you worked with superconductors, or researched on how to make them? If so, I've got a little experiment for you... Make a superconductor that's shaped like a cone, base down, with the angle of the cone at 40 degrees. Like this: /\ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ ________________ Then apply the coolent and watch it fly! If it is a strong enough superconductor (as resitance approaches 0), then the ZPE of the universe pushes down on the superconductor with greater force than the ZPE coming up through the Earth. However, the Superconductor easily transmits the ZPE coming from above, but the ZPE from below is redirect towards the sides (if the cone is a 45,45,90 cone) and thus reduces the ZPE pressure above it. Thus the ZPE pressure below the cone is greater than the pressure above the cone, causing lift. A simple, unmanned ZPE "sailboat"... ;-) (God's gifts of insight are meant to be shared, so ENJOY!) Mark Anthony Collins "The MAC Man" themacman macsrule.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 14:16:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04083; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:57:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"pRcOT1.0.e_.SuHDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17604 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:08 PM 4/15/98, Robert I. Eachus wrote: >At 02:51 PM 4/13/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >>It looks like the above word "lower" is a typo, meaning "higher". I readiy >>recognize typos (I call them "brain checks" due to my long association with >>IBM 360/370's) because I see so many in my own posts! 8^) The higher >>pressure in the low r vicinity squishes the fluid out like toothpaste from >>a tube I take it. > > Like a pile driver sqashing a bug? Like the Big Bang? Like the >implosions used in laser fusion? OK, so you agree with me the word intended was "higher". Magnitude of the pinch depends on various conditions. > The key word in the original was "unstable." The narrower the pinch, >the higher the pressure, until the pinch creates a big enough isulating gap >to open the circut. (Why make such a big deal out of it? What big deal? I don't understand what big deal you are talking about, unless it is the gazillion posts just spent discussing Marinoff's motor, Jeff Kooistra's and Frank Stenger's versions of it, my look at Marinof's force law, both from a design standpoint and experimentally, and Rick Monteverde's search for a longitudinal force in general - all of which have involved low currents by your standards. Marinnof's law was proposed to work in single particle interations all the way up to high currents. Maybe you skipped those posts or were away and missed all that? I suppose the big deal, if there is one, is why Jeff Kooistra's motor works. > You guys are >playing with molten metal at low current--anything not measured in kAmps is >low current--but could get splashed. At higher currents, the pressures in >a pinch can make the bottom of Earth oceans look like a vacuum. I've >gotten over 100 MegaPascals out of an exploding wire, but not repeatably.) > > Robert I. Eachus I'm impressed! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 14:31:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02855; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:24:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:24:37 -0700 Message-ID: <353541D7.5C27 macsrule.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:25:11 -0700 From: "Mark A. Collins" Reply-To: themacman macsrule.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? References: <17D1DE0F65 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5k-42.0.Xi.JMIDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17606 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ZPE is unidirectional. Otherwise, gravity itself would be merely horizontal. THere is more ZPE coming from directly above us than below us, because the Earth blocks a large percentage of the natural ZPE flow beneath us. The ZPE flow to the side of us is equal, giving no net change... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 14:33:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01035; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:18:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:18:31 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:21:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3535262F.5DBE macsrule.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <17D1DE0F65 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"3alqH2.0.3G.cGIDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17605 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > If it is a strong enough superconductor (as resitance approaches 0), > then the ZPE of the universe pushes down on the superconductor with > greater force than the ZPE coming up through the Earth. > > However, the Superconductor easily transmits the ZPE coming from above, > but the ZPE from below is redirect towards the sides (if the cone is a > 45,45,90 cone) and thus reduces the ZPE pressure above it. Thus the ZPE > pressure below the cone is greater than the pressure above the cone, > causing lift. > > A simple, unmanned ZPE "sailboat"... > > ;-) > > (God's gifts of insight are meant to be shared, so ENJOY!) > > Mark Anthony Collins Of course I could be totally wrong about this, but wouldn't the ZPE only be limited in the horizontal direction? It doesn't seem to me like there should be any vertical force here. Any wavelength virtual particle should be allowed to exist below the cone, and thus the only limitation placed on the vacuum would be horizontal waves between the walls of the cone. No? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 15:38:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22829; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980415222955.23940.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:29:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Anton Rager Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? To: themacman macsrule.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"vkKmz1.0.ca5.5MJDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17607 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello, Do you have anything other than wild speculation to back this idea up? My wife would be mighty angry if I froze a large hole thru the garage roof!......and it would be quite expensive to get Colorado Superconductors one-off a cone-shaped YBCO test sample..... If you can provide a bit more substantial reasoning, then perhaps others might brainstorm with you. Is this related to the Finnish experiments? Is it related to Dan Davidson's 'Shape Power' book? Give us a clue. ---"Mark A. Collins" wrote: > > I was wondering if any of you worked with superconductors, or researched > on how to make them? > > If so, I've got a little experiment for you... > > Make a superconductor that's shaped like a cone, base down, with the > angle of the cone at 40 degrees. > > Like this: > > > /\ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > ________________ > > Then apply the coolent and watch it fly! > > If it is a strong enough superconductor (as resitance approaches 0), > then the ZPE of the universe pushes down on the superconductor with > greater force than the ZPE coming up through the Earth. > > However, the Superconductor easily transmits the ZPE coming from above, > but the ZPE from below is redirect towards the sides (if the cone is a > 45,45,90 cone) and thus reduces the ZPE pressure above it. Thus the ZPE > pressure below the cone is greater than the pressure above the cone, > causing lift. > > A simple, unmanned ZPE "sailboat"... > > ;-) > > (God's gifts of insight are meant to be shared, so ENJOY!) > > Mark Anthony Collins > "The MAC Man" > themacman macsrule.com > > Regards, == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 18:54:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25567; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002b01bd68da$58335400$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Fw: positive comment Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:52:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"17675.0.KF6.AEMDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17608 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Carl Rowe To: JoeC transmutation.com Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 5:53 PM Subject: positive comment > J C Sir, I hope this finds you in good health. I've read some of the >comments on the e-mail. >I have worked over 30 years with blacks sands and DDs in SW deserts and >use transmutation techneques to increase the yields. Have my own claims >and have raised a substantial sum of funds toward a mill and refining >complex. All I have heard are barbs and insults thru the years and for >20 years as a bondable assayer about transmutation and transfomation. >The systems I use are not a Agua based liquor and do not use any of your >methods, I'm completely satisfied with my systems. I wholly support the >utilization of transmutation of precious metals > have a good day carl > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 19:26:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00777; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002b01bd68da$58335400$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:14:07 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Fw: positive comment Resent-Message-ID: <"5B9ZU1.0.2C.hdMDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17609 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe - If you have time, could you clarify what you mean on your website regarding the covered crucible? Is this to be a pressure vessle to confine all quantities of all gasses and let none out to compensate for pressure? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 20:02:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09459; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00ae01bd68e2$e3c24820$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:52:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"yU9HL2.0.jJ2.BGNDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17610 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Given that the Earth's Gravity-Magnetostatic-Relativistic field can produce 379 newtons on the right 1.0 Ampere-Meter current loop, another iteration is tried: Unipolar pulses of voltage V and frequency f on a transmission line using the "shorting loops" as Keith Nagel suggested, the trick is to get 1.0 ampere-meters or 1.0 coulomb-meter/second. With a flat line with an impedance, Zo = (spacing/width)*(L/C)^1/2 (ohms) then: f*CV*line-length = coulomb-meters/second if q = CV (~= 4.08E-12 coulombs/pulse with each pulse moving at (LC)^1/2)? At 2.45E9 hertz, V = 100 volts pulse amplitude: 2.45E9*100*C* Line-Length = 1.0 coulomb-meters C would have to be 1.0/2.45E11 = 4.10E-12 farads? Then if (L/C)^1/2 = (550*spacing/width) Zo could be a few ohms. The power dissipated by Zo = (.5*100)^2/Zo (watts). At Zo = 25 ohms, Power ~= 100 watts. That could give an antigravity force of 379 newtons or lift about 38.7 Kg, several meters/second without violating the laws of physics if it couples? Still got that Litton Microwave, Frank? :-) REMEMBER what Robert Eachus told you, though! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 20:16:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03578; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:14:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:14:21 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:16:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <353541D7.5C27 macsrule.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1DBE893200 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"URAJY.0.mt.CUNDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17611 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mark Collins wrote: > ZPE is unidirectional. Otherwise, gravity itself would be merely > horizontal. THere is more ZPE coming from directly above us than below > us, because the Earth blocks a large percentage of the natural ZPE flow > beneath us. The ZPE flow to the side of us is equal, giving no net > change... What exactly do you mean by "ZPE flow?" I bet that nearly any quantum vacuum experiment (i.e. casimir effect) you want to perform would work as well some distance from the earth as it does in an earth based lab. Could you clarify the reasoning behind your idea, please? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 21:15:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17810; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:10:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:10:39 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00cc01bd68ed$20501920$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma 2nd Iteration Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:07:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"WAYrq3.0.4M4.zIODr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17612 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: The "Load Loops" should be where non-cancellation of the 1.0 Ampere-Meter or Coulomb-Meter magnetostatic antigravity field occurs. In that case an oscillator of frequency f feeding a pair of diode rectifiers back-to-back which are feeding a short pair of flat transmission lines (PC Boards) with the load loops of length 2(pi)r with a resistance R = Zo of the PC Board flat "lines". In this way the two loops, one with positive pulses going clockwise and negative pulses going counter-clockwise will be the same as two parallel loops with the pulses going the same direction. Orientation of the loops wrt. the Earth will determine attraction or repulsion force of unknown value. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 21:24:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25687; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980416001813.00670440 cnct.com> X-Sender: knagel cnct.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:18:17 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Keith Nagel Subject: re: Antigravity Dilemma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Yxr8s2.0.CH6.QPODr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17613 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Nipping at the old bunny again, eh Fred? :^) You bring up an interesting point here. Consider the following. It is generally taught that the drift velocity of electrons in a conductor, due to the flow of direct curent, is quite small. Something on the order of mm/sec. However, the speed of a pulse in an air core transmission line ( a conductor...) is quite close to C. This is indeed a flow of charge, as Fred points out. This seeming inconsitency has puzzled me for quite some time. I have by experiment measured the latter, never the former. Perhaps someone can shed some light here? K. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 21:45:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29660; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:38:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00d701bd68f0$c31f73a0$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:33:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"RQq7B1.0.IF7.JjODr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17614 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Keith Nagel To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 10:20 PM Subject: re: Antigravity Dilemma >Nipping at the old bunny again, eh Fred? :^) Sure am Keith. I gotta figure out howcome a UFO crashed into a "Mogul" Spy balloon near Roswell N.M. in 1947, in a one in a zillion acident. I figure since the balloon was the only thing we had flying above 40,000 feet in 1947 "they" weren't looking out for one. :-) Probably not much thunderstorm activity up there either. Regards, Frederick > >You bring up an interesting point here. Consider the following. >It is generally taught that the drift velocity of electrons >in a conductor, due to the flow of direct current, is quite small. >Something on the order of mm/sec. However, the speed of a pulse >in an air core transmission line ( a conductor...) is quite close >to C. This is indeed a flow of charge, as Fred points out. This >seeming inconsistency has puzzled me for quite some time. I have >by experiment measured the latter, never the former. Perhaps >someone can shed some light here? > >K. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 22:34:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08255; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00fb01bd68f8$1f3cd360$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:25:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"iLbjR2.0.j02.kUPDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17615 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: For those Roswell Buffs. The UFO-Mogul Spy Balloon impact point was probably at 50,000 feet altitude or more due East of the Trinity A-Bomb test site. It has been reported that one or two other UFOs crashed West of the Trinity Site in the St. Augustine Plains, South and East of The present-day VLA site. The Mogul payload was "Stealthed" with backward corner reflectors so that to the Iron Curtain RADARS that looked at it, it was ASSUMED to be an itinerant weather balloon.Probably carrying at least a half ton of spy stuff and lots of very heavy batteries. So, given the dilemma between admitting to a spy balloon and Ets, the Army Air Force said it was "a weather balloon that crashed", wouldn't you? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 15 23:47:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07933; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:33:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:33:12 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <010501bd6901$186073e0$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:30:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"zJiUB3.0.tx1.cOQDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17616 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: BTW. The ETs some 51 light-years away saw the flash of the Trinity Test yesterday (by our clocks)using the equivalent of our Hubble telescope. However, with Vortex Warp Time Travel they arrived in the Trinity site area ca. 1947, two years after the A-Bomb Test. Strange what relativity will allow, ain't it? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 04:06:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA27740; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:04:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:02:01 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: "vortex-L eskimo.com" Subject: Re: War?....What is it good for? In-Reply-To: <199804151141_MC2-39FA-7924 compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"wsUM73.0.In6.TMUDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17617 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Soo wrote: > < about just how long do you carry on with something and for how long?> > > As long as it takes. > > Then, Remi, once we muster the "troops" we can attempt to start winning the > war. > Soo, kicks butt! UK uni's are a disgrace at present. Starved of funding, cowardly, bureacratically emasculated. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 04:49:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07311; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:44:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 04:44:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3535EE25.56CB keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 06:40:21 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz CC: petkell stc.net, rivas@theriver.com, Tebearden@aol.com, vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Standind wave in a magnet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OS-8O3.0.yn1.pyUDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17618 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Hex et al! You wrote; > if I understand Mr. Bearden's writings, the aether is analogous to > (and in fact was stated to be) the 'charge' field (or 'electric' > field of an electromagnetic wave). Now if 'electric' fields are > supposed to be ripples in the aether - then the question begs to > be asked: what the hell is magnetic flux, and what is IT'S > medium of propagation? What if magnetism is the inverse of electricity?? Consider the properties; Magnetic South Bloch Wall North push balance pull centripetal balance centrifugal CCW spin balance CW spin acid neutral alkali explosive neutral implosive repellent neutral attractive Electricity Positive neutral Negative push balance pull centripetal balance centrifugal CCW spin balance CW spin acid neutral alkali explosive neutral implosive repellent neutral attractive As Doug brought out with his remarkable idea that negative current or negative electricity might well be a 'sucking' force originating INSIDE the wire, NOT on the outside surface, could it be that electricity and magnetism are but dual aspects of the same energy? That this cold current would attract and attach itself to any similar force (magnetic??) to cause the extraction of sufficient energy that it would slow down the molecular/atomic motion to a point that ICE OR FROST APPEARED? And that ones' hand would suffer frostbite when being shocked by it because it sucked the magnetic force out of it by virtue of this attractive property? Note that the Kowsky/Frost experiment reported in the 1920s Radio Electronics, where they used dual opposed microwave antennas to stimulate a quartz block to a degree that it swelled up and floated in the air carrying a 1kg weight. They reported the entire room became very cold and the picture shows them wearing heavy overcoats while this expanded quartz cube is floating in the air in front of them. This magnetic attractive force, imparted into a mass aggregate could suck in any outside heat by slowing down molecular motion in the levitating mass. There is a spook report of Tesla building a sphere which levitated. He based it on anothers discovery that you could wrap a wire around a mass and cause weight increases or decreases. In the Tesla Sphere, he reports one half became COLD, the other became HOT, much like a REVERSE PELTIER JUNCTION!!! I do not recall which half was HOT, but I think it was the top half of the sphere. The point here is one half of the sphere might have been demonstrating pure magnetism, the other half of the sphere pure electricity and the equator of the sphere functioning like a Bloch Wall. I neglected to mention there was a wire around the middle of the sphere which produced the effect. What if that wire actually SPLIT these two different forces, separating them like a wedge. When that separation is produced, temperature and gravity phenomena appear. Since magnetic energy attracts itself as per the Rory Johson/Gerald Orlowski information and electricity REPELS itself, then the top half of the sphere, highly excited as pure electric force; would repel the aether/gravity/zpe flowing into the planet and into the sphere, causing it to lose weight. If the pure electric force is excessive (push), the sphere is lofted into space (Searl/Hamel glowing electrostatic plasmas), if the force is BALANCED TO THE AETHER inflow of the EARTH, the mass will float in the air, much like the desktop floating magnetic toys sold today, if the aether influx into the earth is GREATER than the repellent force (pull), the mass is again captured by the earths' aether influx. >From my limited comprehension of the universe, most things are dual in nature, up/down, N/S, CW/CCW, etc...so I can see how electricity and magnetism could be mirror opposites with similar but opposite properties. One final thought, an electromagnetic wave propgates literally by screwing itself through the medium and by ALTERNATING between electric and magnetic forces. I think the ELECTRIC PUSHES the magnetic, since electricity is explosive and so radiates more easily than the 'sticky' magnetic field. These 'wave packets' of magnetism are what does the work on arrival. Peter Kelly says that magnetism provides the cohesive force that holds matter together, while ELECTRICITY carries the information that determines the characteristics and properties of matter. By suppressing the magnetic field, you can 'reprogram the electric or information field as Peter calls it', then restore the magnetic field and the mass will 'transmute' to match the new electric/information field. Curiously, the infamous and wonderful genius Ken Shoulders found a way to 'cluster' electrons into grape-like clusters, despite their inherent repellent nature!!! Your comments are appreciated, correct, clarify or slap me down, won't be the first time...... --- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 07:04:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24720; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980416095952.00c50470 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:59:52 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: NEW CART TEST- MARINOV In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"zs02x1.0.926.xxWDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17619 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:57 PM 4/15/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >What big deal? My only concern was safety. There is an illusion that low current means low energy. But all the energy of the pinch ends up in a very small area. With molten metal, the hotter it is, the smaller the possible radius. Therefore a system which stayed on the bench at say, 300 degrees could end up in your face at 350. Some of what goes on will include resistive heating, but more important, the actual pinch profile will change chaotically. So it may be the tenth or hundredth run that sends molten metal flying. Gloves, a lab jacket, and a face shield should be sufficient to avoid injury. (For the experiments I was reporting on, I was behind two inch parafin blocks sandwiched between one inch planks, watching in a mirror, wearing protective goggles, and still closed my eyes during the shots. The parafin was probably overkill, but we had the barrier from another experiment. The biggest gouge in the wood was about 1/4 inch deep, but we did crack a few planks...) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 10:48:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13718; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:41:03 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199804161741.SAA11505 popmail.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dominic Murphy Subject: Re: War?....What is it good for? Resent-Message-ID: <"jWAyq.0.CM3.eCaDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17621 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Sounds good to me. I've been following OU since Meyer had cred. Even did a documentary on it a couple of years ago, called "It runs on water". Would be delighted to help build a UK nutwork, I mean, well you know what I mean. Quite like Remi's style for a strart. At 11:41 15/04/98 -0400, you wrote: >Remi > >< about just how long do you carry on with something and for how long?> > >As long as it takes. > >< if you have been trained as an engineer/scientist, you must feel >like a 'fish out of water' when confronted with something genuinily new or >poorly understood.> > >Part of the problem also is the invisible boundaries self-erected by >scientists and engineers. More co-operation between the disciplines would >help a lot. It's too much like relying on nuclear physicists to comment on >electrolysis > >concerted effort. > > >Myself and others are on the case with the networking aspect. For a start >how about all the Brit scientists/engineers/general commentators based in >the UK who frequent this list, regularly or casually, make themselves >known. I'm attempting to compile a database with a view to establishing a >directory of interested parties (UK). > >I know who the UK subscribers to I.E. magazine are....I don't know who pops >in and out of this list. So tell me. > >Then, Remi, once we muster the "troops" we can attempt to start winning the >war. > >Regards >Soo > > Dominic Murphy 44+ (0)181 580 2715 0973 886770 (mobile) dominic dircon.co.uk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 10:53:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14435; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <012201bd6947$0f8c7660$3f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: How many "gs" can a Fly pull? Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:50:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"cC9ut3.0.FX3.vFaDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17622 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: For a housefly flying in a circle: a = v^2/r in 90 degrees of the circle the fly's flight path to an observer (that's us) changes direction. Is the fly creating an "inertial frame" or an accelerated reference frame that gives us the impression that "he/she" is pulling what to us would be fatal maneuvers? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 11:19:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01002; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:15:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:15:39 -0700 Message-ID: <353647BF.58C interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:02:39 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Howard Polytron Rocket Engine References: <353621C5.13F4A69E css.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Yaz063.0.aF.9haDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17623 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > >From another discusion group: > > > I figured some over here might be interested in entertaining the concept. > I don't know, when he starts off listing thrust in units of ft per second, I get uneasy! Maybe it's just a typo, but it looks like this guy is suffering from "flights of fancy" (aren't we all!) and that NASA makes a good scapegoat. Considering the unconventional stuff NASA is spending time and money on, I think this guy should do a bit of self analysis before he passes on. I couldn't get far enough to see if he had any experimental results - I stalled when he said that the expansion and contraction of atomic electron shells was a major feature of the gas laws. Anyone see anything here? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 12:51:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20638; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:47:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:47:37 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <35366048.AD4CCC54 css.mot.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:47:20 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Howard Polytron Rocket Engine References: <353621C5.13F4A69E css.mot.com> <353647BF.58C@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"U_75g3.0.J25.N1cDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17624 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Francis J. Stenger wrote: > John Steck wrote: > > > > From another discusion group: > > > > > > I figured some over here might be interested in entertaining the concept. > > I don't know, when he starts off listing thrust in units of ft per > second, I get uneasy! Now I didn't say it was a complete idea...., I just thought it was an interesting one (syntax errors not withstanding). I haven't read through it all of it yet and space drives are not really my bag-o-worms so no way for me to have evaluated the quack factor in advance. My apologies if this is a dead end. Given the broad experience base lurking about, I was just wondering if it struck a chord with anyone. Yes, the clasic 'poor inventor victim' routine is being foisted upon the readers and no, there does not seem to be any data posted. Apart from the obvious red flags, does the CONCEPT hold water? I will look it over tonight and see if I can find anything. -- John E. Steck Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 13:35:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28405; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:32:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:32:12 -0700 Message-ID: <19980416203105.16168.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:31:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Anton Rager Subject: Focusing Sound Article? To: jdecker keelynet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"jFf1b2.0.kx6.AhcDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17625 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Arghhh....I hate it when I lose track of information! Couple days ago I came across a a reference somewhere that was an article about sound focusing....kinda like lasing sound. Article went on to say how this would be able to make stereos more realistic. I just don't remember where I found it could be paper or electronic.........I've backtracked to SciAm, NASA tech briefs, CNN, Vortex, Freenrg, Keelynet, Anti-G, bookmarks ....and still can't find it........ Anyone else see this and have it handy? == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 13:52:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA30494; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:41:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:41:39 -0700 Posted-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:33:22 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <35366B44.27AF8441 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:34:12 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Mars Face Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1HfdV1.0.OS7.1qcDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17626 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, This picture relased later, and processed as "Calibrated, mercator map-projected (flipped left to right), contrast enhanced, filtered" is located at http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camera/images/4_6_face_release/face_inverted.gif (560KB) Taken from page http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/camera/images/4_6_face_release/index.html See the eye pupilla and the nose holes. This is enough to be 99.99999999% confident for thinking it is a monument. (picture is not taken from top but about 40 degree off.) I am even more exicted to recognize it as an exact human face not an humanoid. As this subject is not on topic we may also discuss it off the list. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 13:56:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16036; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:42:24 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <35366DC6.1D71AA52 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:44:54 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Focusing Sound Article? References: <19980416203105.16168.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"m9_iM2.0.Tw3.RwcDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17627 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anton Rager wrote: > > Arghhh....I hate it when I lose track of information! [snip] Maybe it is still in your history file or the cache. Assuming you are using the same computer. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 17:33:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11321; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:21:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:21:17 -0700 Message-ID: <35369F48.54EB keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:16:08 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer CC: KeelyNet-L lists.kz, Tebearden@aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Standind wave in a magnet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"k1TZt2.0.am2.w1gDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17628 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Clarification and apology if needed!! This was sent in concern about a tongue-in-cheek comment I made about Ken Shoulders; > I would never refer to Ken Shoulders as infamous, this is an > unkind thing. He is, in my opinion, unquestionably the 'father' > of the micro vacuum tube. Ken is a friend of mine and we have always had a good relationship...it was meant as a compliment and he will recognize it as such. When we get together at conferences, I ALWAYS make it a point to hang out with Ken when I can and take him to lunch or dinner AT LEAST ONCE so we can catch up....I think he is one of the most brilliant people I have ever had the honor to know.... You see, years ago, when he was separating from Church, he and his wife came to Dallas to meet me and I brought Dan Davidson. We had an extended discussion and he gave us a video of the charge cluster experiments. He was very frustrated with the lack of reception of his discovery and the actions taken by Church to try to take it over to bail out his bad business deals. Ken was hoping we might have some contacts with money people, which we openly admitted to not having. Over the years, we have kept in contact...he has a hilarious sense of humor and a very wry, some would say sardonic perspective on things....he's always ragging me that 'there ain't no such animal as free energy'....he is also very pessimistic with regard to any new claims which cannot be proven by experiment...as it should be.....he has influenced me over the years because I respect his work, his insights and his approach. I keep trying to get him on the Internet as do many others...he says no way, he wants nothing to do with anything that might infect his own computers. Prosaic but its' his computers. Anyway, unkind is not my intent in the least....Ken is one of the icons in my very limited pantheon of modern day researchers. So, I guess some might not realize that I have known Ken for many years now and use of the term infamous in conjunction with WONDERFUL expresses my awe and amazement of the guy... You would have loved his single-handed, totally original explanation of cold fusion at John Bockris' 'Low Level Energy Conference' in College Station....all this minutiae dragging on and on...just about everyone showing these electron microscopes images of craters which were all found to have very similar types of elements, TRANSMUTED from the pure base material, usually platinum. They call this 'dirt' as it was a side effect that causes the very contamination which kills the anomalous production of heat via 'cold fusion'. Ken showed nearly identical craters from his charge cluster explosions and the spectral analysis of the crater elements is nearly EXACTLY like all those seen with the cold fusion contaminant craters.... Ken was very low key about it and simply presented the facts showing the visual and spectral analysis evidence. One fell swoop and it was over. Do you think it made the conference?? Hardly, more like Ken became a pariah or so it appeared to me. Only John Bockris picked up on the importance of this revelation by Ken, I know because we talked about it afterward. So, I consider Ken a friend and one of the greatest living researchers. As everyone in alternative energy knows, his 80+ page patent was and IS a landmark because it states the use of ZPE as linked to the charge cluster phenomenon. I apologize to anyone who might have gotten the wrong idea from the comment, blasphemy or humor. This was meant as humor. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 18:48:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01227; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:50:46 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"w12uh2.0.5J.4HhDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17629 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I just found my IE No. 17, and read Koositra's article. Unless futher explanation and clarification is forthcoming from Jeff Kooistra, it appears to me there is a logical explanation for Koostra's results, as reported in IE No. 17. It is already clear that the leakage flux interacting with the brush supply lines can, via Lorentz forces, make the central magnetic torus turn in its nearly frictionless hanging bearing. It clearly can only turn a limited amount, and can not rotate like an armature. This is no mystery any longer, per old vortex discussion this month. The key to the armature rotation I think was in Kooistra's description: "It is a fact that when current is introduced to a Marinov ring with brushes and the torus is fixed, the ring does rotate. At the time of writing, I've managed to get the ring to rotate easily, despite using sticky, aluminum foil brushes that tend to spot-weld to the copper ring." We now see a key difference between Koositra's motor and Stenger's precision made motor with ultra bearings and very smooth brushes. The difference lies in the fact Kooistra's brushes are very free to move laterally with the ring (the picture shows them being very long, narrow, and of course, thin), and clearly make both sliding and non-sliding frictional conatct with the ring. In fact sometimes the brushes make "welded" contact with the ring. The reason I suggest Koositra's motor works and Stenger's doesn't, is that the Lorentz force on the brush supply is transferred, by brush friction, to the ring. Stenger's brushes are fixed, and that makes all the difference. Koosita states "rotate easily" but not "continuously and without sticking." Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 19:02:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA30140; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:58:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:58:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3536B5FC.2B7 spu.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:53:00 -0700 From: TK Reply-To: tnk spu.edu Organization: tnk spu.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Focusing Sound (macrosonics) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6A649B3BF8" Resent-Message-ID: <"wlC8f2.0.oM7.QThDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17630 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6A649B3BF8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted this to the list a while back under a different title, but it has to do with what you are talking about. Also, do a web search on the word macrosonics. TK tkirk hotmail.com _____________________________________________________________________ --------------6A649B3BF8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3528326C.1DA7 spu.edu> Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 18:39:56 -0700 From: TK Reply-To: tnk spu.edu Organization: tnk spu.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com Subject: macrosonics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out the following URL's relating to a macrosonics, and post what you think of these devices, uses, etc. http://cnn.com/TECH/9712/02/sound.wave.energy/ http://www.aip.org/physnews/graphics/acoustics/1997/macroson/macroson.htm Thanks. --------------6A649B3BF8-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 19:28:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09954; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:24:31 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:21:35 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: From Blacklightpower Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"8HLfM2.0.SR2.SrhDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17631 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This today from Blacklightpower: Job Opportunities Research scientist BLACKLIGHT POWER, Inc. of Malvern, PA is seeking a research scientist to conduct experiments involving analytical chemistry including inorganic synthesis, purification/isolation, and characterization of novel compounds. Applicants must be familiar with common experimental set-up and be able to develop new procedures. Applicants must possess a working knowledge of chemical processes, isolation and identification techniques, and preferably have a familiarity with one or more of: XPS, MS, GC, IR, Raman spectroscopy, and XRD. Qualified applicants must be well organized, able to communicate and work well with others, and able to trouble-shoot problems and work independently. A minimum of 3 years lab experience is desired. Technician and Ph.D.. level applicants are sought. To apply contact: staff blacklightpower.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 20:02:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18117; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:56:54 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <913f587c.3536c446 aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:53:56 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"ZI5gV1.0.wQ4.oJiDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17632 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, The vacuum system is just perfect. It has held a 25 millitorr vacuum now for over 50 hours using readily available off the shelf plumbing components. The entire system cost under $275.00 including the pump. BTW, the pump, which I orginally paid $310.00 including tax was a gross overcharge. It seems that WW Grainger was running a sale on said pump in March and April for $235.00, and they "kind of forgot" to update their computer records. I only found out about this while browsing through a sale circular while waiting for an order for copper fittings to be filled. Luckely, I had brought the sales receipt with me as I can never remember my account number. That $55 credit sure made my day! So if anyone out there needs a decent vacuum pump hit them up before the end of April. It pumps down to 25 millitorr. I ran a heat test this evening, arc in vacuum but this time with a small piece ( > 1/10 gram) of K metal in the tube. I cleaned the oil off the K with acetone and dropped it into the tube, pumped down for an hour and then lit the arc. The oxides on the K made somewhat of a mess in the bottom of the tube but the temperature rose to a very stable 105.8 C. The .3 higher temp could be attributed to warmer ambient conditions. Cleanup was easy; a few drops of water into the tube after cooldown produced a couple of small sizzels (tube pointed away from me), then more water and all the mucky residue washed out of the tube, including the W that had deposited near the electrodes. The tube looks brand new again. The small sizzels is why I like dealing with very small amounts of reactive chemicals. Safer! Opening and sealing the tube is a joy. I am using an O-Ring in a standard brass compression fitting. The sharp side of the ferrule I ground flat where it contacts the O-Ring so it wouldn't cut into it. It works like a charm. Hand tighten the compression nut and it makes a perfect seal. Sigh.....still no word on the H2. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 21:23:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09058; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980416231748.00930100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:17:48 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <913f587c.3536c446 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"LepBb.0.KD2.wWjDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17633 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:53 PM 4/16/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: >The vacuum system is just perfect. Good work, Vince! >Sigh.....still no word on the H2. You might just want to cancel that order and go get a standard ~240 cu ft cylinder of hydrogen. In Austin, such is always in stock at the local welding supply for ~$50 for the gas plus a couple of bucks per month demurrage for the cylinder. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 22:35:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27267; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:25:23 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: jdecker keelynet.com Subject: Re: Focusing Sound Article? In-Reply-To: <19980416203105.16168.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"iabIH1.0.rf6.cckDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17634 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Anton, The term is 'acoustic lens'. There are several types and you might want to search Scientific American... and other journals for Acoustic; Lens Holography Imaging The field is fairly well developed. In general most of the lenses are for either a fixed frequency or narrow range of frequencies. One type, for fixed frequency, is a series of metal or other rigid thin material in th form of plates. The plates have regularly spaced holes or perforations in them. The plates are spaced from one another and may or may not cahnage in diameter to form a 'lens' shape. One of many examples. J On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Anton Rager wrote: > > > Arghhh....I hate it when I lose track of information! > > Couple days ago I came across a a reference somewhere that was an > article about sound focusing....kinda like lasing sound. Article went > on to say how this would be able to make stereos more realistic. I > just don't remember where I found it could be paper or > electronic.........I've backtracked to SciAm, NASA tech briefs, CNN, > Vortex, Freenrg, Keelynet, Anti-G, bookmarks ....and still can't find > it........ > > > > Anyone else see this and have it handy? > > > == > Anton Rager > a_rager yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 23:00:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06556; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:57:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:57:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3536F14B.3DB0 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:06:03 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Vorts at ICCF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"M3eb71.0.Lc1.CzkDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17635 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: It looks like there will be several Vorts at ICCF. Mike Carrell, George Holz, and Michael Huffman replied to my earlier message that they may attend, and I assume that Jed, Gene and Scott will be there. I will arrive on Wednesday and stay through Friday. If any of you would like to get together to talk, I suggest we meet after the banquet on Wednesday. If it is not too late, we can talk then. Otherwise, we can make plans to go to lunch or dinner on Thursday. To figure out how to find each other, I could not come up with a good Vortex equivalent of wearing a red carnation. Unless someone has a better idea, I will just put a piece of paper on one of the banquet tables that says "Vortex", and anyone who wants to join us is welcome. -- Bob Horst From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 16 23:25:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01797; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:13:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:38:41 +0000 Message-ID: <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"vABL5.0.yR._BlDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17636 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >In the USA the decade of 1990's have been one long boom. The Federal Budget is >balanced, inflation is low, economic growth is strong, unemployment is a record >low, yet still we hear people saying "get into Precious Metals, its all going >to come unstuck." > >I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to beliefs in >the face of obvious contradictory evidence. > >Martin Sevior > Reminds me of contradictory facts: The national debt is at record levels in spite of a strong economy, meaning interest paid on it is likely to dwarf other categories of budget expenditures for the indefinate future and accelerating deficits, particularly if interest rates rise (which they always have). I am curious about the psychology of people who can believe in a perpetual stock market parabolic rise. What is so different this time, besides scale? I am not declaring that perpetual rise is impossible, but I would never recommend relying heavily on it. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 02:38:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18769; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:42:01 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Resent-Message-ID: <"ExYw61.0.Bb4.eAoDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17637 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:38 PM 4/16/98, Ed Wall wrote: >>In the USA the decade of 1990's have been one long boom. The Federal Budget is >>balanced, inflation is low, economic growth is strong, unemployment is a >>record >>low, yet still we hear people saying "get into Precious Metals, its all going >>to come unstuck." >> >>I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to >>beliefs in >>the face of obvious contradictory evidence. >> >>Martin Sevior >> >Reminds me of contradictory facts: The national debt is at record levels in >spite of a strong economy, meaning interest paid on it is likely to dwarf >other categories of budget expenditures for the indefinate future and >accelerating deficits, particularly if interest rates rise (which they >always have). > >I am curious about the psychology of people who can believe in a perpetual >stock market parabolic rise. What is so different this time, besides scale? >I am not declaring that perpetual rise is impossible, but I would never >recommend relying heavily on it. > >Ed Wall The low inflation, partly achieved by the Fed pegging iterest rates to the price of gold, is driving the herd, IMHO. The cows that try to stop before going over the cliff simply get poked by a nasty horn from behind. The thing many people do not realize is that p/e's of over 20 look pretty bad if inflation simply rises to 10 percent. Such a small and not unthinkable inflation rate would require the market value to reach about half the present level for income investors, that is retirees, income based retirement annuity funds, etc., to maintain status quo return on investment. Keeping interest rates low is great for paying the National debt, because the debt eats up a much smaller portion of the budget. Many instruments, like mortgages and credit card debt, are now tied to inflation, so the same applies to many household and corporate debt payments as well. A sudden doubling of debt payments due to 10 percent inflation would be a serious problem for many individuals and companies, due to loss of all disposable income. There is no mechanism that is absolutely known to cause inflation to return, so there is no absolute guarantee 10 percent inflation will return and drive a calamity. On the other hand, there are no guarantees it won't. In fact, markets and interest rates are historically cyclical, even when brakes are put on them. The brakes sometimes just make the cycles more abrupt and chaotic. My feeling about the right personal choice in regard to the situation is that it is good for the individual to live debt free, and that is what I do. It would be wise for the country to do similarly it seems. It is the truly safe investment. Freedom has its price. Being in debt is a modern form of indenturedness, or slavery. To the degree we individually or jointly are in debt, we are enslaved. The real improvements to the economic situation that permit perpetually good outcomes arise not from controls, but from people doing what we are trying to do here on vortex - make a real difference in world productivity or population control, in our case by improving the world energy situation. So, let's get at it! That's one amateur's opinion. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 04:32:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08760; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:30:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:30:24 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000b01bd69f3$c66948c0$548cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Antigravity Dilemma , Experiment Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:27:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"7fU2z1.0.g82.ErpDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17638 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: IF, a 1.0 Ampere-Meter pulsed "current loop"can experience 379 newtons of antigravity force at the Earth's surface, 379 watts (newton-meter/sec) can lift 38.67 Kg (85 pounds)at a rate of 1.0 meter/second. Given that. :-) A $2.50 Radio Shack full-wave bridge rectifier rated at 6.0 amperes at 200 PIV and about 200 feet of 12 gauge Nichrome resistance wire (0.1 ohm/foot) wound on a 12 inch diameter non-conducting tube, when plugged into the 60 hertz wall-socket should give 720 watts of antigrav lift (80 pounds at 2.0 meters/second)or act as a great space heater. :-) WITH SAFETY AND PERFORMANCE DISCLAIMER! Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 05:20:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14117; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:19:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:19:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: illminster.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:18:31 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi illminster Reply-To: Cornwall RO To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: War?....What is it good for? In-Reply-To: <199804161741.SAA11505 popmail.dircon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"qnnSU1.0.RS3.pYqDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17639 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wayhay! A London man. Can we trick 'em? Can we get facilities from London colleges? We've got the lot here: Imperial, Kings, Queens, School of Pharmacy, British Library, Various Royal Socs., Radio Spares near Canning Town, Maplin in several places (one a mile from me), Aldrich, Fluka chemical suppliers who will supply you with just about anything. Lets here it for the Brits! I don't quite believe in the 'Cool Britainia' image - a nation of sevice economies, fashion houses, pop music, Ye 'ole Englande, Diana-memorobilia and, er, the Full Monty. Like what ever happened to the Mother of the Industrial Revolution or Newton, Thomas Newcommen, Watt, Stevenson, Caylie, Brunel, Maxwell, J.J. Thompson, Logie Baird, Babbage, Lovelace, Turing, Darwin, Hawking, Dorking and many more. Remi. > > > Dominic Murphy > 44+ (0)181 580 2715 > 0973 886770 (mobile) > dominic dircon.co.uk > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 05:37:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16127; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:35:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:35:56 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:31:00 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano Reply-To: Carlos Henry Castano To: Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Subject: **REPORT OF WORK from South America and Home-Page** Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"lfplf1.0.vx3.hoqDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17640 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear vortexers, 2 days ago I finish my Directed Work of Degree, called "Experimental Study of Cold Fusion Phenomena", the work is available in spanish (I'm sorry) in Beta Version in: http://www.unalmed.edu.co/~chcastan My work consisted in calorimetric measures and microscopy observations and preliminary calcium measures in a electrolytic cell of 0,57 M of K2CO3 solution in H2O with Nickel Fibrex cathode in a closed cell. In my Directed Work of Degree are available, a brief historic recount, every experimental detail make in my laboratory, how I evaluate the materials, the measure of Nickel Fibrex area, the detailed construction of electronics thermometers (termistors) and calibration, the construction and calibration of the dual calorimeter (flow calorimetry and calorimetry by calibration curve), and it has a section with evaluation of causes of the errors, with Peltier effect, autoheat of termistor, magnetic stirrer, change of the level of electrolyte, termistor damage, etc. I think that I need more work and exploration about conditions of experiment and how trigger the excess heat reaction, moreover I need answer at the question: How other investigators measured the real electrochemical active area of the cathode?, I have uncertainty about the equality of conditions (current density) in few days I will put a summary (a bit more specific) of the principal sections in English, please be patient. I hope any critics (constructive best) or question in regard of this work, this is my approximation at the Cold Fusion phenomena. Sincerely, Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Laboratorio de Electroquimica Universidad Nacional de Colombia, Sede Medellin Colombia, South America. Other E-mail: chcastan hotmail.com (it's Chequed every couple of weeks) p.s. I put my work save as HTML from a word document, I will improve the graphics soon. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 05:47:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18101; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:45:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:45:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:43:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804171243.HAA07174 dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> From: aki ix.netcom.com (Akira Kawasaki) Subject: Re: Vorts at ICCF To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"0pHpt1.0.lQ4.IxqDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17641 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 17, 1998 You wrote: > >To figure out how to find each other, I could not come up with a good >Vortex equivalent of wearing a red carnation. Unless someone has a >better idea, ---- How about fashioning a lapel pin out of a small (or huge) wood screw positioned upside down (to dilute the object's obvious part)? Might be better if it is a beat up used one (maybe even painted). Kinda like a solid state image of a vortex --- it can suggest and conjur other ideas also, but --- -AK- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 06:10:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22968; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:07:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:07:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: illminster.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:06:34 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi illminster To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Do you see my point? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SSTZc.0.fc5.ZGrDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17642 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortex, (Long email important note at the bottom though) I wasn't meaning to wind you up when I asked about the progress of Cold Fusion. It just that one has to have an armour and thick skin when one deals with colleagues who pooh, pooh things. It seems the way to deal with that old chestnut - 'if it all works, why isn't it on the grid, etc?' is to say 'Have you done any research in this field? Do *you* know the issues, current techniques, or are you hearing them nth hand? By pushing it underground you starve it of funding and fulfil that prophecy of non-progress. Also, when times get tough and the experiments are 'too insensitive to confirm' or impractical to scale up, you must have some kind of theory or approach to fall back on that is underpinning all your work. For instance, about my work with the 2nd law: paraphrasing Rolf Landauer who wrote back to me 'many projects suffer from a faulty exposition'. If the starting point is not sound - STOP IT, you'll over commit yourself and make yourself ill. Don't be trying to make perpetual motion machines in ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ conservative fields without some kind of field modulation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (What the field giveth, it taketh away) Here one *must* study and do the analysis. It takes a little time to convince onself that it is worthwhile if one's a techie. I recommend Feynman Lectures. He'll convince you steadily of the importance of learning the mathematical methods of physics. He never bombasts. All his derivations are to the point and essential in clarity. I sincerely believe that the 2nd law is flawed and my exposition is not faulty. That keeps me going when I don't quite see what I expected. Many people Landsberg, Exell, Landauer, Bauer, Wharton, several biologists I know, know of this. The 'big trees' are bloody good scholars, but they must distance themselves from controversy - scandals reck careers nowadays. No freedom of enquiry. To give you a flavour. Of what's wrong: 1) the old steam engine engineers could make heat 'flow up hill' by returning exhaust vapour back to the superheater to regain latent heat. Steam injectors they're called - Metcalf steam injector. 2) When dS = 0 (equilibrium) thermd. says there is no system evolution. No arrow of time. Yes the system passes through macroscopically indistinguishable states but the underlying eqns. of motion *DO* have a time's arrow, even in Newtonian mechanics. 3+ body problem. Time's arrow *is* in classical physics. Am currently learning the dynamics of this, Lagrangians, Hamiltonians, Non-linear dynamics and chaos theory. It's all there, any mathematical physicist can do it. It takes a little longer for me because I'm not a mathematician (er, yet). I believe its all to do with phase changes, and constant temperature processes. I know about 1st order. 2nd order and higher I need to devise thermd. cycles that utilise property changes. Bauer's capacitor relies on phase changes of mixing/demixing of a dielectric hence change of dielectric constant. Larry Wharton won't publish. He's using fluid mechanics. He's a mathematical physicist - if anyone can link these disprate threads together, it probably him. Once we have a theory to direct us, we'll know what phenomena to go for. My hygroscopic vesicles do work, but nowhere as much water as I hoped for. It won't flow without making a device many tens of meters high. I sincerely believe there is a way around this by exploiting the neutral eqm conditions at 100% humidity above the device. A small energy input will help matters considerably which I believe I can recoup from the energy the device liberates. You see real fluids have viscosity and surface tension, that cocks up simple analysis. If water didn't have these properties, it would work wonderfully, but then it wouldn't have the other desirable properties no doubt. (Hints about the new approach, I'll tell you more when I correctly formulate it). ************************************************************************** By the way, if all this sounds counter intuitive, so is CF to HF people. Please don't dismiss anybody's research without following the arguments. It's all decent human courtesy. If you disagree, disagree politely - try to be constructive in your criticisms. ************************************************************************** Remi. (Just remember, bad sportsmen play the person, not the ball) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 06:15:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07065; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:14:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: illminster.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:11:59 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi illminster To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Vorts at ICCF In-Reply-To: <199804171243.HAA07174 dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SYCND1.0.Jk1.NMrDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17643 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > >To figure out how to find each other, I could not come up with a good > >Vortex equivalent of wearing a red carnation. Unless someone has a > >better idea, ---- > DON'T put the carnation in you hair. DON'T make it pink. Heh, heh, heh. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 06:16:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25115; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:14:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:14:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bd6a02$78aec380$6440ddcf craig> Reply-To: "Craig Haynie" From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:12:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"KXK3b.0.E86.TMrDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17644 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >There is no mechanism that is absolutely known to cause inflation to >return, so there is no absolute guarantee 10 percent inflation will return >and drive a calamity. On the other hand, there are no guarantees it won't. >In fact, markets and interest rates are historically cyclical, even when >brakes are put on them. The brakes sometimes just make the cycles more >abrupt and chaotic. Disagree...It was Milton Friedman who demonstrated that inflation presents itself in direct proportion to the increase in the broad money supply. The broad money supply grows because the Federal Reserve loans money below the free market rate. In other words, the free market can't provide money with an interest rate as low as the Federal Reserve because there would be a shortage of money. The Fed doesn't have this problem because it can create money on demand. With a growing population, and an increase in production, there should be a natural fall in prices as more and more people purchase more and more goods with a limited supply of money, but an increase in the money supply will stop this natural fall in prices before any indication of inflation becomes noticeable, so the growth in the money supply exceeds the observable inflation rate. There would be no inflation, and an observable deflation, if the Federal Reserve raised rates above the free-market rate for money, but I don't believe the Federal Reserve has ever raised interest rates to this point. If, on the other hand, the Federal Reserve did not RAISE rates when inflation became noticeable, then a run-away inflation could occur because free-market rates would rise with inflation, leaving the Fed farther and farther below the free-market rate, causing a larger and larger demand for money. This occurred in the late 1970's. I don't think there is any disagreement on this issue now. There was considerable disagreement in the late 1970's before Paul Volker demonstrated that inflation could be stopped by raising the prime interest rate. Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 07:22:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06494; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:20:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:20:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:13:56 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: VO name tag...Re: Vorts at ICCF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"1pfLa3.0.Ob1.RKsDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17645 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Just use piece of paper and safety pin ... write "VO" on it in heavy letters. Like an indentity card. On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Cornwall RO wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Akira Kawasaki wrote: > > > >To figure out how to find each other, I could not come up with a good > > >Vortex equivalent of wearing a red carnation. Unless someone has a > > >better idea, ---- > > > DON'T put the carnation in you hair. DON'T make it pink. Heh, heh, heh. > Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 08:18:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16954; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:13:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:13:41 -0700 Message-ID: <353771A4.D6C599D9 ro.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:13:41 -0500 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l Subject: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D89DF7154579E03F22D3D1BD" Resent-Message-ID: <"tCsQZ3.0.n84.Y6tDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17646 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D89DF7154579E03F22D3D1BD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Patrick V. Reavis Student at Large /\ / \ / G \ ~~~~~~~~ DELTA-G --------------D89DF7154579E03F22D3D1BD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <35377162.46AA250B ro.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:12:34 -0500 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: themacman macsrule.com Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3535262F.5DBE macsrule.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark A. Collins wrote: > I was wondering if any of you worked with superconductors, or > researched > on how to make them? > > If so, I've got a little experiment for you... > > Make a superconductor that's shaped like a cone, base down, with the > angle of the cone at 40 degrees. > > Like this: > > /\ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > / \ > ________________ > > Then apply the coolent and watch it fly! > > If it is a strong enough superconductor (as resitance approaches 0), > then the ZPE of the universe pushes down on the superconductor with > greater force than the ZPE coming up through the Earth. > > However, the Superconductor easily transmits the ZPE coming from > above, > but the ZPE from below is redirect towards the sides (if the cone is a > > 45,45,90 cone) and thus reduces the ZPE pressure above it. Thus the > ZPE > pressure below the cone is greater than the pressure above the cone, > causing lift. > > A simple, unmanned ZPE "sailboat"... > > ;-) > > (God's gifts of insight are meant to be shared, so ENJOY!) > > Mark Anthony Collins > "The MAC Man" > themacman macsrule.com OK MacMan, You're on! I've made several high quality superconductors at my volunteer job at NASA, including a 5 layer ( http://ro.com/~preavis/Delta-G/My_Experiments/5_Layer_Superconductor.htm ) and a thirteen layer ( http://ro.com/~preavis/Delta-G/My_Experiments/13_Layer_Superconductor.htm ) two inch disk. I'll see about fabricating a conical die. Does the cone have to be 40 degrees? Is two inches in height sufficient? If it flies, I'll give you due credit; if it doesn't, I'll still give you credit. -- Patrick V. Reavis Student at Large /\ / \ / G \ ~~~~~~~~ DELTA-G --------------D89DF7154579E03F22D3D1BD-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 09:27:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00184; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:24:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:24:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:20:12 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Jed's ICCF-7 plans Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804171223_MC2-3A38-3603 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"qDIna2.0.n2.k8uDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17647 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex I will be staying at the Pan Pacific Hotel, where the conference will be held, if anyone wants to look me up. I will be working with Mizuno on the final draft of the book. Gene and I will present a paper during a poster session. I have a new electronic camera with 1024 x 768 resolution. If there are any good visuals at the conference I can take some shots and upload them while it is happening. I am the world's worst photographer but I have a tripod and Gene can operate the camera. I must say, this camera is the greatest thing since sliced bread. On a recent site visit I took 120 photos. No development time or expense, and pretty good resolution. It takes fabulous close up shots in "macro" mode. (I do not know why they call it macro.) - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 09:52:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08887; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:42:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:42:56 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yQS_M2.0.mA2.kPuDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17648 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:38 AM 4/17/98 +0000, Ed Wall wrote: >Reminds me of contradictory facts: The national debt is at record levels in >spite of a strong economy, meaning interest paid on it is likely to dwarf >other categories of budget expenditures for the indefinate future and >accelerating deficits, particularly if interest rates rise (which they >always have). I'm going to put on my economist hat and answer this. To measure the actual federal debt you have to look at both the monetarized and unmonetarized liabilities. In the eighties the monetarized part shot way up, but the real total governmental indebtedness actually went down. To take one small example, much of the interstate highway system was built with money provided by municipal or state issued bonds. Ninety percent of the money to pay off these debts came from the US Treasury via the tax on gasoline, but the debts appeared as state, not federal obligations. When it comes to Social Security, there is another process going on which you really need to understand. You pay Social Security taxes. Some of this money goes to pay benefits to current retirees. The rest goes into the US Treasury where it is used to buy T-bills and notes for the Social Security Trust Fund. Huh? You pay taxes, and the Federal debt goes UP by a like amount? Only in America. (Actually most of the money paid to the Treasury for the T-bills is used to pay other bills, but right now we do have the true bogus situation. The government is net retiring indebtedness to non-governmental lenders, and there is concern about the resulting deflation.) If you are really interested in the state of the economy you have to look at lots of governmental games like this and factor it all out. That having been said, look at historical levels the ratio between both all government debt and federal debt and the GDP (or GNP). The highest ratio was at the end of WWII, and for the all government debt/GDP ratio, the real ratio has been coming down since the mid eighties. (Incidently, the worst period in recent history was during the Carter adminstration. The distortions introduced by high inflation rates (remember those?) skewed the apparent increase into the early eighties. Now back to increasing interest rates. Interest rates go up in crises, and during periods of high inflation. They go down during periods of deflation and stability. Right now interest rates are as low as they were in the mid-fifties, and we have low inflation rates--and as mentioned above--periods of actual deflation. I don't want to tell you to bet that interest rates will keep going down--it is possible but unlikely. But there are powerful forces in the economy which will keep them low for the next decade, absent war, famine, etc. Incidently, the current "Social Security Crisis" is all about low interest rates. Since T-bills and notes are paying relatively low interest rates, and the Social Security Trust Fund is required to hold Treasury securities, the current rate of return is low. Some Democratic senators want it invested in common stocks, and the Republican would rather have indivduals do the investing. >I am curious about the psychology of people who can believe in a perpetual >stock market parabolic rise. What is so different this time, besides scale? >I am not declaring that perpetual rise is impossible, but I would never >recommend relying heavily on it. 1. In the long run, the stock market will always (as a whole) rise. 2. In the short run, the stock market is very volatile. A one per cent up or down move in a day is not unusual for the Dow or any of the market averages. 3. Individual stocks are more volitile than the market--fifty per cent of value in a day is not unheard of. Years ago, I did a day trade tranaction in Bulova, buying at 6 3/8 and selling at 9 1/2. The stock closed the day unchanged. 4. The long run can take a decade or more. Incidently, I don't do short term trades any more. Lots of fun. Any of you can make lots of money following some very simple advice. However, you'll need it for the medical bills. To put it in one sentence, the market will pay you to assume risk, he more apparent risk, the better it pays. So buy stocks which have a substantial chance of going bankrupt within six months, and sell when you have a good profit. Do it right, and you'll make 50% on ten stocks for every one you are left holding. But you will be left holding some. Put them in trust for your kids--some will come back but most won't. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 11:10:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21868; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:48:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199804171748.KAA29902 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] Resent-Message-ID: <"-V8Nf.0.aL5.dPvDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17649 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >OK MacMan, You're on! I've made several high quality superconductors at >my volunteer job at NASA, including a 5 layer ( >http://ro.com/~preavis/Delta-G/My_Experiments/5_Layer_Superconductor.htm >) and a thirteen layer ( >http://ro.com/~preavis/Delta-G/My_Experiments/13_Layer_Superconductor.htm >) two inch disk. >I'll see about fabricating a conical die. Does the cone have to be 40 >degrees? Is two inches in height sufficient? >If it flies, I'll give you due credit; if it doesn't, I'll still give >you credit. Simply making it conical isn't going to get you thrust. If you look at the QVF, arriving from the opposite direction, you will see that they thrust from that direction is opposite to the thrust from the direction that the previous poster is focusing on. They cancel out to yield no net thrust. If you truly want to build an anti gravity device, all you need to do is to use a net thrust imposed on the aether. ie, just like a helicopter blade or a jet turbine blade, but at the atomic scale. With an HTSC disc you ought to be able to do this. The conical design is good, but you need to fabricate it other than with simply layers. You need to form a helical layer. ie, if you rotate the htsc as you deposit the films, you will form a spiral helix at the atomic level, or close to it. for each turn, you will increase the ability of the device to thrust aether. But if the atomic structure is not nearly atomically flat, then you will be doing what we have been doing for centuries with rotors, ie, it is the same thing as a helicopter with round pipes for "blades". You get no lift from round pipes, and thus our devices get no lift when we simply rotate a wheel. If you can get that wheel to sort of float through space, then even with round pipes for blades a helicopter would generate a small amount of lift. That is why the Japanese experiment with rotating wheels at high rpm generated a tiny amount of measurable lift. At Tampere, their disk had to have had a small amount of helicity to the lattice structure, and thus when they spun it up, it generated lift. To generate substantial lift, you will need to spin the thing to rpm's where it is on the verge of flying apart, and then it ought to begin to grab into the aether and pump it like the jet turbine pumps air. But when you pump aether, you distort spacetime locally. ie, the term "anti gravity" is IMO, a silly term just like we would think that saying that a helicopter is an anti gravity device. It isn't. It is a simple action reaction device, as will be HTSC aether turbines in our near future. The reason that the conical shape is good to add is because the faster you spin up the thing, the more it wants to fly apart. But if you are pumping the aether down and outward, axially and radially, at the same time, then there is a radial reaction thrust. This wastes some of the vertical lift, but it allows you to spin the disk up to higher rpm before it fails mechanically. ie, you will be inducing an effective "anti centrifugal" field at the same time as the "anti gravitational" field, and thus the radial stress on the crystal will be reduced. I say this because making a simple disk may not cut the mustard. Also, once you have made this conical disk, you ought to be able to put it on an air bearing and watch it spin due to the incident red shifted wave energy arriving from deep space that results in gravity in the first place. As long as the thing is in the SC state, it ought to reflect those waves off of the atomic layers slightly. the effect should be really tiny, but then anything that spins indefinitely despite energy loss is of interest even if the available power is small. As for the aether turbine, the intensity of the thrust ought to be small up to the point that the disk is about to fly apart. This is a bit analogous to the transition from laminar flow to turbulent flow in fluids. That transition is due to the shearing layers exceeding the sonic ability of aether waves (ie, the atoms are shearing spacetime nodes at an FTL pace, and so rather than break out of coupling to spacetime, the atoms shear into new trajectories and give rise to the turbulence in the fluids. For solids, they cannot shear like that and so they are forced to remain in their crystalline structure by the wave energy exchanged between atoms. When that shear stress becomes too great, the disk fractures and flies apart and we say that it has suffered a tensile stress failure. There is no such thing. What has really happened, is that the wave energy incident upon the rotating object and being filtered by it, is not sufficient to push the atoms inward and continue to force the rotation of the solid object. And so the atoms again follow the path of spacetime curvature due to FTL shearing of adjacent nodes and the disk flies into pieces heading out tangentially. That the object flies apart due to a failure to push it together by incident waves coming from space is a very key thing to try to grasp. When you grasp that, you will understand why it is important to use the spiral structure for the atomic layers of the HTSC, and why it is important to have lots of layers. When you understand the above, it will make perfect sense why a metal sample necks down under a tensile test into an hour glass shape. The wave energy from outside, is crushing it as you releive the compression along the axis of the rod being tested. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 11:10:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24423; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:56:36 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex , John Schnurer Subject: Jason Aldo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XqCvs.0.Qz5.rcvDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17650 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Paging Jason Aldo... Jason: I am trying to get in touch with you but your E mail bounces... Please drop ma a line.... AND: If any of you Vos out there know what to do to reach him, please E mail me directly. I would ike to E mail or telephone him. Thanks, JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 11:58:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06352; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:52:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:52:13 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VO name tag...Re: Vorts at ICCF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JPZFM2.0.tY1.aJwDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17651 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, John Schnurer wrote: > > > Just use piece of paper and safety pin ... write "VO" on it in > heavy letters. I vote for well-worn knit caps with scraps of Al foil peeking out around the edges. ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 11:59:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07242; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:54:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:54:02 -0700 X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:00:39 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Standind wave in a magnet Resent-Message-ID: <"r2KKM1.0.-m1.8LwDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17653 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 7:16 PM 4/16/98, Jerry W. Decker wrote: [snip] > >So, I consider Ken a friend and one of the greatest living researchers. >As everyone in alternative energy knows, his 80+ page patent was and IS >a landmark because it states the use of ZPE as linked to the charge >cluster phenomenon. [snip] Has any profitable commercial device been produced from Ken's work? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 12:09:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04905; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08A6 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:52:17 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"hWGtC3.0.VC1.jLwDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17652 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace It is nice to see some wisdom about finances. The stock market is driven by two counteracting emotions, Fear and Greed. Currently Greed has the upper hand, but it doesn't take much to switch it, like a Persian Gulf crisis. Thirft is an undervalued quality right now. Your right about the Bull trying to stop from going over the cliff. I try an maintain a balance in my savings between Stocks and Bonds, or there equivalent in mutual funds, but when the market goes up at 30% a year and my net worth only increases by 10% I wonder if I'm being sensible. hnak > ---------- > From: hheffner corecom.net[SMTP:hheffner@corecom.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 2:42 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the > world). > > At 6:38 PM 4/16/98, Ed Wall wrote: > >>In the USA the decade of 1990's have been one long boom. The Federal > Budget is > >>balanced, inflation is low, economic growth is strong, unemployment > is a > >>record > >>low, yet still we hear people saying "get into Precious Metals, its > all going > >>to come unstuck." > >> > >>I guess I'm just curious as to the physcology of people who cling to > >>beliefs in > >>the face of obvious contradictory evidence. > >> > >>Martin Sevior > >> > >Reminds me of contradictory facts: The national debt is at record > levels in > >spite of a strong economy, meaning interest paid on it is likely to > dwarf > >other categories of budget expenditures for the indefinate future and > >accelerating deficits, particularly if interest rates rise (which > they > >always have). > > > >I am curious about the psychology of people who can believe in a > perpetual > >stock market parabolic rise. What is so different this time, besides > scale? > >I am not declaring that perpetual rise is impossible, but I would > never > >recommend relying heavily on it. > > > >Ed Wall > > The low inflation, partly achieved by the Fed pegging iterest rates to > the > price of gold, is driving the herd, IMHO. The cows that try to stop > before > going over the cliff simply get poked by a nasty horn from behind. > > The thing many people do not realize is that p/e's of over 20 look > pretty > bad if inflation simply rises to 10 percent. Such a small and not > unthinkable inflation rate would require the market value to reach > about > half the present level for income investors, that is retirees, income > based > retirement annuity funds, etc., to maintain status quo return on > investment. > > Keeping interest rates low is great for paying the National debt, > because > the debt eats up a much smaller portion of the budget. Many > instruments, > like mortgages and credit card debt, are now tied to inflation, so the > same > applies to many household and corporate debt payments as well. A > sudden > doubling of debt payments due to 10 percent inflation would be a > serious > problem for many individuals and companies, due to loss of all > disposable > income. > > There is no mechanism that is absolutely known to cause inflation to > return, so there is no absolute guarantee 10 percent inflation will > return > and drive a calamity. On the other hand, there are no guarantees it > won't. > In fact, markets and interest rates are historically cyclical, even > when > brakes are put on them. The brakes sometimes just make the cycles > more > abrupt and chaotic. > > My feeling about the right personal choice in regard to the situation > is > that it is good for the individual to live debt free, and that is what > I > do. It would be wise for the country to do similarly it seems. It is > the > truly safe investment. Freedom has its price. Being in debt is a > modern > form of indenturedness, or slavery. To the degree we individually or > jointly are in debt, we are enslaved. > > The real improvements to the economic situation that permit > perpetually > good outcomes arise not from controls, but from people doing what we > are > trying to do here on vortex - make a real difference in world > productivity > or population control, in our case by improving the world energy > situation. > So, let's get at it! > > That's one amateur's opinion. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 12:53:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13191; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:54:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: VO name tag...Re: Vorts at ICCF Resent-Message-ID: <"tzV_m3.0.0E3.S9xDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17654 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:52 AM 4/17/98, William Beaty wrote: > >I vote for well-worn knit caps with scraps of Al foil peeking out around >the edges. Darn, I wish I could have gone! That's right in my end cabin fever - post Iditarod -"breakup" - HAARP statement - fashion lineup! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 12:58:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21202; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:56:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:56:43 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:03:16 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"wxUkM.0.CB5.wFxDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17655 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I wrote: " We now see a key difference between Koositra's motor and Stenger's precision made motor with ultra bearings and very smooth brushes. The difference lies in the fact Kooistra's brushes are very free to move laterally with the ring (the picture shows them being very long, narrow, and of course, thin), and clearly make both sliding and non-sliding frictional conatct with the ring. In fact sometimes the brushes make "welded" contact with the ring. The reason I suggest Koositra's motor works and Stenger's doesn't, is that the Lorentz force on the brush supply is transferred, by brush friction, to the ring. Stenger's brushes are fixed, and that makes all the difference." Gee, no comments? Did somebody already post this and I didn't understand it because I didn't have the arcticle around? Sure wish I *had* understood this earlier. Would have saved a lot of time. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 13:08:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15428; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:57:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: VO name tag...Re: Vorts at ICCF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ujwLr3.0.pm3.GOxDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17656 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Yeah..... but they have to be curly... 'vortex like' scraps .... or sections of stretched out screen door springs.... On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, William Beaty wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, John Schnurer wrote: > > > > > > > Just use piece of paper and safety pin ... write "VO" on it in > > heavy letters. > > I vote for well-worn knit caps with scraps of Al foil peeking out around > the edges. > > > ((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb eskimo.com www.eskimo.com/~billb > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science > Seattle, WA 206-781-3320 freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 13:21:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17407; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980417201358.6799.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [204.192.100.35] From: "Peter Aldo" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jason Aldo Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:13:58 PDT Resent-Message-ID: <"7Yiyv2.0.pF4.SYxDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17657 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, I got your Email on Vortex. My email address is prospector85 hotmail.com. It should be working. Peter >From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 11:07:39 1998 >Received: (from smartlst localhost) > by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24423; > Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) >Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:04:45 -0700 (PDT) >Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:56:36 -0400 (EDT) >From: John Schnurer >To: vortex , > John Schnurer >Subject: Jason Aldo >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >Resent-Message-ID: <"XqCvs.0.Qz5.rcvDr" mx2> >Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com >Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com >X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17650 >X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com > > > Paging Jason Aldo... > > Jason: I am trying to get in touch with you but your E mail bounces... > > Please drop ma a line.... > > AND: > > If any of you Vos out there know what to do to reach him, please >E mail me directly. I would ike to E mail or telephone him. > > Thanks, > > JHS > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:11:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27645; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980417170903.00b9e100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:09:03 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199804171748.KAA29902 Au.oro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"BEMYj2.0.kl6.EJyDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17658 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:48 AM 4/17/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote: >With an HTSC disc you ought to be able to do this. The conical design is >good, but you need to fabricate it other than with simply layers. You need >to form a helical layer. This idea depends on the ZPE/aether having a rest inertial frame, contrary to relativity. Of course, most physicists have already accepted that there is such an inertial frame, so you are on solid ground. (Imagine a ball flying at 90% of the speed of light. The ZPE hitting the front of the ball is blue shifted and the ZPE on the back is red shifted relative to the ball. This causes the ball to slow down. For the ZPE to create no drag, the spectrum of the ZPE would have to be such as to require infinite energy.) Actually this brings up another point. According to measurements, the net velocity of the earth is dominated by the speed toward the great attractor. (The other components are the rotation of the earth, the motion of the sun towards Vega, the rotation of the sun around the center of the galaxy, and the rotation of the earth around the sun.) Should the Tampere disk experiments show a push toward the Great Attractor? I think it would be too small to measure. However, Ross's superconducting propeller idea should produce a detectable force. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:14:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28664; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:10:15 -0700 Message-Id: <199804172110.OAA19057 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] Resent-Message-ID: <"jOofQ3.0.o_6.XMyDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17659 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Response to macman's email to me regarding the way the vertical zpe is deflected by the triangular or conical shape: Yes. but you are forgetting that the zpe coming in from horizontal is going to lead to a downward thrust when it is refracted by the inclined sides and offset your gains in deflecting the vertical thrusts. The net is zero, I tried that one years ago. If this worked, then simple prisms which refract light would always generate a net thrust that would be measureable, but they don't. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:13:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11576; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:10:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:10:38 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980417171254.00bbbba0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:12:54 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: RE: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" In-Reply-To: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08A6 xch-cpc-02> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Lr2rT1.0.oq2.DLyDr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17660 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Thrift is an undervalued quality right now. Your right about the Bull >trying to stop from going over the cliff. I try an maintain a balance in >my savings between Stocks and Bonds, or there equivalent in mutual >funds, but when the market goes up at 30% a year and my net worth only >increases by 10% I wonder if I'm being sensible. Only if it goes up by 10% when there is a bad year. I have found that in the stock market it is much easier to make a goal of 15% average growth with no more than a 10% down quarter, than to make 10% with no downside risk. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:19:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29140; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:09:22 -0400 From: Soo Subject: Re: VO name tag...Re: Vorts at ICCF Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804171709_MC2-3A3A-34A compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA29096 Resent-Message-ID: <"ND7Ly3.0.A77.APyDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17661 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: What's wrong with the good old anorak? -Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:27:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01766; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:23:36 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:20:57 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: anyone working with a superconductor? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"6xeYU3.0.NR.IXyDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17662 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes I am, however, I do not believe in an aeather, ether vortex, or any such strange thing. I am trying to emitt a gravitational field by modulating the gravitomagnetic field produced by a rotating superconductor. I believe that the emission of a gravitational field will produce postive energy. Letter From Frank Znidarsic: Znidarsic Tells... So far I have not found any anomalous energy. My ideas are based on the fact that CF electrodes are superconductive and the existence of a force/gravity symmetry. The Source of Inertial and Grav. Mass see my papers on Electromagnum Elektromagnum Index Page, created July 1 Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:31:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02040; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:24:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:22:02 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"170st.0.mV.2YyDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17663 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Sure wish I *had* understood this earlier. > Would have saved a lot of time. Are you sure you've got it all figured out? How can you do that without seeing the motor in operation or talking to Kooistra? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 14:47:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05194; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:38:11 -0700 (PDT) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:21:42 -0700 Subject: It Runs on Water Video Message-ID: <19980417.142150.3606.0.tv juno.com> References: <199804161741.SAA11505 popmail.dircon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-7,9-18,20-29 From: tv juno.com (Tim D Vaughan) Resent-Message-ID: <"7Hen32.0._G1.zkyDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17664 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello Dominic, I have seen snatches of "It runs on water" from video captures downloaded from various internet sources. From what I saw it looked very interesting. Where could I buy or rent this fine video ? I was most intrigued by the segment about Alexander Chernowskii. I know the Prof. Chernowskii died but what has happened to his work since then ? Are the pictures of his device in the video real or simulated ? Thank You and Best Wishes, Tim Vaughan ( tv juno.com ) On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:41:03 +0100 (BST) Dominic Murphy writes: >Sounds good to me. I've been following OU since Meyer had cred. Even >did a >documentary on it a couple of years ago, called "It runs on water". >Would >be delighted to help build a UK nutwork, I mean, well you know what I >mean. > >Quite like Remi's style for a strart. > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 15:18:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09645; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08A8 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: anyone working with a superconductor? Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:59:38 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"LnS7_1.0.aM2.V5zDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17665 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Do you think that the energy in the superconductive devices magnetic field has enough energy to be a large enough equivalent mass to have a large enough distortion of the space around it to modify the distortion caused by the mass of the earth which we cause gravity. Think General Relativity. Hank > ---------- > From: FZNIDARSIC[SMTP:FZNIDARSIC aol.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 2:20 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: anyone working with a superconductor? > > Yes I am, however, I do not believe in an aeather, ether vortex, or > any such > strange thing. > > I am trying to emitt a gravitational field by modulating the > gravitomagnetic > field produced by a rotating superconductor. I believe that the > emission of a > gravitational field will produce postive energy. > > Letter From Frank > Znidarsic: Znidarsic Tells... > > So far I have not found any anomalous energy. > > My ideas are based on the fact that CF electrodes are superconductive > and the > existence of a force/gravity symmetry. > > The Source of > Inertial and Grav. Mass > > see my papers on Electromagnum > > Elektromagnum Index Page, > created July > 1 > > Frank Znidarsic > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 15:43:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15137; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:40:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> References: <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:39:42 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice Resent-Message-ID: <"B9Sdp2.0.Ri3.7fzDr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17666 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Eachus writes: > Lots of fun. Any of you can make lots of money > following some very simple advice. *Any* of us Robert? Even - me??? Well now here's a dilemma. Do I set up a gold transmutation factory in my garage, or start dealing stocks for the short term gains? I get the feeling that the flaw in each one is the same: some *crucial* piece(s) of information is/are missing. In the former case I'd probably get nothing but a garage tainted with heavy metals and other toxic chemicals, and I'd probably lose my health; and in the latter I'd lose my health *and* the garage (and the house it's attached to)! I believe in making money the old fashioned way: create something of remarkable value or utility and sell the hell out of it. Now if only I could follow my own advice. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 16:26:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22994; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:24:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980417170903.00b9e100 spectre.mitre.org> References: <199804171748.KAA29902 Au.oro.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <49E0E51F1F hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"KZynW.0.6d5.1I-Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17667 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This idea depends on the ZPE/aether having a rest inertial frame, > contrary to relativity. Of course, most physicists have already accepted > that there is such an inertial frame, so you are on solid ground. (Imagine > a ball flying at 90% of the speed of light. The ZPE hitting the front of > the ball is blue shifted and the ZPE on the back is red shifted relative to > the ball. This causes the ball to slow down. For the ZPE to create no > drag, the spectrum of the ZPE would have to be such as to require infinite > energy.) Interesting. I thought that the ZPE was velocity invariant. Is this a new theory or does it come out of standard quantum field theory? JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 16:54:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07439; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:52:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:52:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:34:36 -0500 (GMT) From: Carlos Henry Castano To: Carlos Henry Casta~o Giraldo Cc: "Robert D. Eagleton" Subject: Abstract of **REPORT OF WORK from South America and Home-Page** Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ikU_w3.0.4q1.Kj-Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17668 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A quick translation of Castano's Abstract (Courtesy of Michael Schaffer) _______________________________________________________________________ "An electrolysis experiment was performed in a solution of 0.57 M K2CO3 in a cell of controlled materials, with a high-surface-area nickel cathode and a platinum anode. Electrolysis gases were recombined, permitting closed cell operation. Very careful and high cojnfidence calorimetric measurements were made. No abnormal behavior was observed with respect to powers. The thermal power (measured in two different ways) was equal or slightly less than the electrical power supplied. We recommend continued exploration of the conditions of the experiment and getting guidance from closer by, from research groups experienced in successfully reproducing this phenomenon." _________________________________________ The complete work contains a large amount of detail. Castano closely followed Robert Bush's version of R. Mills' Ni cathode in K2CO3 system. Castano's work was done carefully and is reported in detail. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 17:12:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10287; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:09:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:09:16 -0700 Message-ID: <3537EF3E.7D8C interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:09:34 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hnqdZ3.0.eW2.gy-Dr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17669 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > Gee, no comments? Did somebody already post this and I didn't understand > it because I didn't have the arcticle around? > > Sure wish I *had* understood this earlier. Would have saved a lot of time. > Horace, I saw it and thought it was a great observation. I would have gone out, dug out my motor, re-installed the magnets, changed to Al foil brushes, and tried it - it still sounds like a good thing to try but I'm short on time and suffering from Marinov burnout. But, how would Jeff get continuous rotation by this process - wouldn't the brushes need to "pop" back in place with zero contact and then "weld" again to ratchet the ring around? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 17:36:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04100; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980417203510.00bc76d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:35:10 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <49E0E51F1F hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.19980417170903.00b9e100 spectre.mitre.org> <199804171748.KAA29902 Au.oro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ybKLz3.0.z_.PK_Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17671 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:24 PM 4/17/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: >Interesting. I thought that the ZPE was velocity invariant. Is this >a new theory or does it come out of standard quantum field theory? No to both. ZPE MAY be velocity invariant, but many of the recent gage theories require that it not be. I know of several proposed tests, but they all require "flat" space--out beyond Mars somewhere. But no one I know of has ever proposed a rotating high temperature superconductor with the planes perpendicular (or slanted) with respect to the axis. I'm not sure it would be a practical reactionless propulsion system, but there may be enough of an effect to be measurable. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 17:36:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03038; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980417202821.00bbfc70 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:28:21 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jVqDF3.0.Ol.0E_Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17670 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:39 AM 4/17/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >I believe in making money the old fashioned way: create something of >remarkable value or utility and sell the hell out of it. Now if only I >could follow my own advice. You are creating something of remarkable value, a liquid market. All you have to do initially is sit around a broker's office or spend the money to get a non-delayed ticker on your computer. Now when you notice an imbalance of orders in a stock, provide the balance. (Of course, you have to be an industrious little bunny and KNOW what is going on with that company, that is why you pick a small set of stocks or a market area or some such. You don't have the time to learn what you need to know when the time comes, but you do have time to review. So you update your "book" every night.) If you do pay attention, at least ninety per cent of the time, you will be providing liquidity to the market, not getting taken by inside traders. (And if you do get taken by insider trading, bitch. The SEC takes its job very seriously in that area.) After a while if you are good at this, you will find that the specialists in "your" stocks are calling you. Eventually you can buy yourself a seat on the Exchange, if you are inclined that way, and do your day trading from the floor. What's the catch? Let's see, first you need some capital. Second this is a full time job and more. If you take a vacation and don't keep up to date, you will either make bad trades or spend a week of long hours just catching up. When I did it, the only real vacations I got were a couple of long weekends where the market was closed on Friday or Monday and I took the other end of the weekend off. Last but not least, it is very hard on your health. I tried, and did pretty good at "cleaning up" my positions at the end of the day. I might have some of my money invested, but I wasn't overcommitted. Even so, sometimes it was hard to sleep. There are probably several thousand people who do this for a living. In fact at one point a few years back there were more physists doing this on Wall Street than working in physics research. Average is about four years before burnout. (Of course, part of the burnout is you have all the money you want, and you want a chance to spend it.) If you want further information, contact my brother. He is a Senior VP of Paine Webber, but he doesn't do day trading anymore either. He is one of the people you provide liquidity and risk management services too. (He manages large accounts. What you do is when someone like Dave wants to sell, say 40,000 shares of Exxon, you, and 39 other guys like you step up and buy 1000 shares each, then sell it soon after. You deal in diversity which spreads your risk. Dave buys and sells large blocks, and pays a premium (in price) for the service you provide by completing the deal for him now. You know how much Exxon YOU are willing to hold, or be short, and what buy and sell prices are reasonable. You may average $100 on a transaction, and do ten or fifteen "round trips" a day. If you get to a seat on the floor, you will be buying and selling several million dollars worth of securities a day. A friend who did this (had a seat on the exchange) was at one point averaging over $10 million in trades a day, without ever having more than half a million in open positions. Or you may by the stock to sell an option, or by an option to cover your position or...lots of arbitrage to be done, but you really make the most money by knowing when, and by how much, you can "go naked," have an open position for a short time. One final word, some days the bulls win, some days the bears win, but the hogs always get nothing. Well known proverb on the street. Basically it means that if you hold on for that last fraction, you will lose the transaction. Better to finish this trade, and go to work on the next. But if you get emotionally attached to your investments, do not do this. You may like the way the company is run, and admire the President's style, etc. But if your business rules say sell, sell. Your job is to minimize the fluctuations in the price, not to get taken for a ride when the fundamentals change. The longest I ever held a security while day trading, I had "sold against the box" bought covertable shares, sold the underlying stock short. Found out I could make money that way but it was too slow. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 18:16:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10752; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980417202821.00bbfc70 spectre.mitre.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:12:26 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice Resent-Message-ID: <"5TNIB.0.rd2._v_Dr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17672 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert - > What's the catch? Let's see, first you need > some capital. Second this is a full time job > and more. If you take a vacation and don't > keep up to date, you will either make bad > trades or spend a week of long hours just > catching up. He he. I sat next to one of 'you people' on a trans-pacific plane ride once. Got quite an earfull about the lifestyle, the risks and rewards. No wonder there's only a few thousand people doing it. Darwin Award comes to mind. I might be just a ***little*** too laid back for that stuff. > ...you really > make the most money by knowing when, and > by how much, you can "go naked," have an > open position for a short time. That I can dig. Met my current girlfriend at Black's Beach in La Jolla, California. "Open position" indeed; full disclosure required. Ok, seriously - any book recommendations for someone who knows "" and wants to learn a little bit about this kind of trading? Somehow I get the impression that an amateur with 10k to play is NOT going to have fun with that sort of thing, but what do I know... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 18:34:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24651; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:30:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:30:24 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:30:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"bKEta.0.216.k80Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17673 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Heffner wrote: >I wrote: " We now see a key difference between Koositra's motor and Stenger's >precision made motor with ultra bearings and very smooth brushes. The >difference lies in the fact Kooistra's brushes are very free to move >laterally with the ring (the picture shows them being very long, narrow, >and of course, thin), and clearly make both sliding and non-sliding >frictional conatct with the ring. In fact sometimes the brushes make >"welded" contact with the ring. The reason I suggest Koositra's motor >works and Stenger's doesn't, is that the Lorentz force on the brush supply >is transferred, by brush friction, to the ring. Stenger's brushes are >fixed, and that makes all the difference." > >Gee, no comments? Did somebody already post this and I didn't understand >it because I didn't have the arcticle around? Yes, I thought of this some time ago, but I was afraid that if I posted it the discussion going on then might get too acrimonious. I think Kooistra's brushes stick and then transmit torque from the brushes and feeds to the ring. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 18:51:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27202; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:48:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:48:32 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980417215049.00b60470 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:50:49 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980417202821.00bbfc70 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"mWnG91.0.te6.lP0Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17674 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:12 PM 4/17/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Ok, seriously - any book recommendations for someone who knows "" and wants >to learn a little bit about this kind of trading? Somehow I get the >impression that an amateur with 10k to play is NOT going to have fun with >that sort of thing, but what do I know... There are lots of books on "charting" stocks. Most of them are junk, but there are those targetted at day trading rather than looking at highs and lows for the day. You end up with "triggers," events that tell you that a stock is moving out of it's accustomed range. If you see a trigger, and can move before the stock is back in range--remember there are other cowboys like you out there, and they move FAST. If you can't see a trigger and get the purchase through in five minutes, you are too laid back for this. With electronic trading, two minutes is not out of reach. That's why I said you go into the day with triggers and you watch the news ticker for mention of your stocks--if there is a potential mover, just cross that stock off the list for today. But for learning there is nothing better than doing. I'd take more than 10K, but not much more. You want to trade in "round lots" 100 shares, and to start out do only one lot at a time. When you get into the swing of things, 1000 share lots give you a break on brokerage fees, so you need 20K to by a $20 stock. On $100 stocks, you can afford to trade one or two lots, so you are still in the $10K range. And again, when starting out, don't be in two positions at once. Once you get good, you can handle four or five open positions, but it gets real embarassing if at the end of the day you find you forgot to close a position. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 18:59:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28627; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:55:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:55:58 -0700 Posted-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:51:24 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <353807B8.1A19DB09 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:54:00 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: APS "What's New" on VANCOUVER MEETING Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"AMa8f2.0.D_6.jW0Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17675 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: ... 5. COLD FUSION-7: VANCOUVER MEETING REPORTS MORE THAN HEAT. The preferred term among believers is now "chemically-assisted nuclear reactions." Nowadays it seems to transmute gold into base metals, neutralizes radioactivity and works fine with ordinary water. We note that the probability of N miracles is equal to the probability of one miracle to the Nth power. ... http://www.aps.org/WN/WN98/wn041798.html Attention: Not "transmuting into gold" but more conventionally "transmuting gold". It seems Joe had not yet an audience in APS. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:14:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA30751; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:12:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:12:45 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:19:43 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"2tnYU3.0.PW7.Rm0Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17676 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The key to the armature rotation I think was in Kooistra's description in IE No. 17: "It is a fact that when current is introduced to a Marinov ring with brushes and the torus is fixed, the ring does rotate. At the time of writing, I've managed to get the ring to rotate easily, despite using sticky, aluminum foil brushes that tend to spot-weld to the copper ring." Koosita states "rotate easily" but not "continuously and without sticking." Hindsight is always so much better. Looking back at vortex content, note the complete lack of the terminology "revolves", or "RPM, for example. It is always "torque" or "rotate" which is not desciptive of how far the ring rotation occurs or how continuous it is. Some selected quotes follow: At 6:08 PM 3/16/98, George Holz wrote: >Kooistra has tried flexible leads and reports no observable deflection. >I agree that the force from the feed wires needs to be measured and >compared to the ring force. At 3:59 PM 3/19/98, George Holz wrote: >Sorry, I didn't realize that this wasn't yet on vortex. I hope Gene >and I don't post copies simultaneously. If you haven't yet subscribed >to IE magazine, don't read this. ;-) > >Gene, > Hope this comes in time for the next issue. Despite the necessity >to run up and down the basement stairs to check on the kids, I finally got >to try to get a thin conducting shell to rotate just as my ring did. > This is important--despite what I did with the torus as I described >in my "Not a Homopolar" paper, the doubt remains that somehow the universe >will conspire to defeat us if we substitute a shell for a ring and reduce >the size of the Lorentz hook. > OK, fine. So I took my original rotating ring apparatus, which >weighs in at a substantial fraction of a pound (I'll see if I can put it on >a pan balance tonight) and attached to it a cardboard cylinder with a >two-thickness of aluminum foil wrapped around it once on the exterior. I >stacked the deck against myself--this unit is 1) heavier than the original >ring set up, and 2) has the entire conductor at the distance of the OUTER >diameter of the original copper ring. > I learned several things: > 1: Aluminum foil brushes still suck. > 2: Copper brushes from coaxial cable also suck. > 3: Nevertheless, when you can actually get good contact with the >brushes on the conducting ring, the shell gives the "same" strong >rotational response as the ring (the ring has a radial component width of >3/8th of an inch, yielding a total Lorentzian L of 3/4th of an inch . The >aluminum foil thickness is next to nothing (not measurable on my cheap >caliper)). By "same" I mean that you really can't tell much >difference--the ring and the shell both give about the same strong >rotational jerks until the brushes spotweld or lose contact--it certainly >is NOT the case that reducing L to near vanishing reduces the effect. >Jeff At 3:47 PM 3/20/98, George Holz wrote: >The following message was recieved on 3/20/98 10:30 AM > from Jeffery Kooistra: > >Everybody: > OK, so what we've really needed is a smoking gun to kill off the >universality of the Lorentz force law. Despite all our efforts, someone >always seems to find some kind of theoretical hook to rescue Lorentz. > Well, not on this one. This time we have something where Lorentz >predicts rotation opposite from observed. > Consider the thin shell around a typical leaky Marinov torus. I >specifically used a torus in which the left vertical side was a magnet, >north up, south up on the right side, capped top and bottom by thin steel >plates so there was lots of leakage. The shell itself is about a third the >height of the torus, and centered between top and bottom. > Now, I've already demonstrated that the force on either a shell or >a ring causing it to rotate is nearly the same regardless of the radial >thickness of either--yesterday I did this by actually making a shell turn. >However, knowing how the latter day Aristotles who frequent the internet >(thanks for the post yesterday George--yes--it's OK to pass info over to >Vortex) would look for Lorentzian hooks, I looked for some myself last >night. > If we consider all the possible B components and i components at >work in the "leaky" situation (radial B, top and bottom, vertical B left >and right, horizontal i, and now also _vertical_ i components, neglecting >the radial i since that's already been shown not to matter) we find that >only in the case of B radial interacting with i vertical do we get a force >to provide rotation. All other forces cancel out. > Now, looking down on this from above, if you have the torus I >specified and current coming in from the left (traditional + current), then >the Lorentzian expectation is that the ring will go counter clockwise. >(Radial B interacting with vertical i always points ccw in this case for >all quadrants.) > But when you do the experiment, the ring goes clockwise. QED > Now, in an aside to Hawkins Kirk, if one considers the current >directions divorced of B field interpretations, and forgetting about the >leads which don't make much difference, then looking at parallel and >anti-parallel real current components in the ring interacting with >appropriate surface current components on the magnets does yield the proper >sense of rotation in both cases. > I'll try to get a full-scale write up of all this done soon, >looking at all this leakage B crap, but unless we can get folks like some >of the vortexians away from their VDTs and into their own labs, it won't be >worth much. They can always assume I just "made a mistake somewhere". >Jeff At 4:50 PM 3/23/98, George Holz wrote: >Recieved from Jeff Kooistra on 3/22/98 at 12:48 AM. > >Subject: Just gi' da boy an hour to hisself >Guys, > OK, got some time to myself tonight, just messin' around trying to >find more suitable, and easy, brushes. Reproved the ring/shell thang. Did >a Tim Allen with more power and some bare #24 wire--got nice torque. So >for the hell of it and to please the Vo'tex crowd I got them there brushes >up under m' ring to make contact on the inside. Whooo-doggies! Y'know the >damn thing still rotates th' same way. Shoooot! Looks like un that there >Lorentz fella goin' get hung on his own hook. >Y'all have a nice night now, y' hear. >Jeff At 11:22 AM 4/17/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > Sure wish I *had* understood this earlier. > > Would have saved a lot of time. > >Are you sure you've got it all figured out? How can you do that without >seeing the motor in operation or talking to Kooistra? At 8:09 PM 4/17/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: [snip] >But, how would Jeff get continuous rotation by this process - wouldn't >the brushes need to "pop" back in place with zero contact and then >"weld" again to ratchet the ring around? There does not appear to me to be any evidence (or even assertion) in the information published by George Holz or Jeff Kooistra for continuous ring revolution without manual intervention. They have not clearly stated that continuous smooth operation was ever achieved. In fact, the wording almost implies an *assumed* operation capability based on the torque observed when the brushes are held in contact manually. In such a circumstance, it would not be possible to tell if the force felt were coming from the brush or the ring. The burden of proof of unknown or unaccepted physical laws, or new experimental evidence of such, is not on the audience, but on the presenters. The burden of assertion and then proof is not on me, but on George and Jeff. Of additional interest, Thomas Phipps in column 3, p 43, IE No. 17, states: "Nobody who has yet tried to reproduce the Marinov motor observations has failed to do so." If he is referring to the highly discredited mercury pool experiment - probably true, but nothing is proved by that. The failure of the motor built by Frank Stenger, a highly qualified retired NASA engineer, puts all this into a different light it seems to me, despite the comparatively weak magnets, due to the large currents Frank used. It would be good to hear from George Holz and Jeff Kooistra on these points. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:31:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21443; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199804180227.TAA18486 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: ??Puthoff?? Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Resent-Message-ID: <"gmAfm1.0.sE5.n_0Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17678 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Interesting. I thought that the ZPE was velocity invariant. Is this >a new theory or does it come out of standard quantum field theory? >JAY OLSON The zpe, whatever the shape of the spectrum, ought to permeate all space. Thus, like the CBR, it ought to be velocity variant, IMO. Perhaps Puthoff can comment further on his take on this as he is more into zpe than I. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:31:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00644; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199804180227.TAA18480 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] Resent-Message-ID: <"zE0xW3.0.-9.B-0Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17677 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 10:48 AM 4/17/98 -0700, Ross Tessien wrote: >>With an HTSC disc you ought to be able to do this. The conical design is >>good, but you need to fabricate it other than with simply layers. You need >>to form a helical layer. > > This idea depends on the ZPE/aether having a rest inertial frame, >contrary to relativity. Of course, most physicists have already accepted >that there is such an inertial frame, so you are on solid ground. yes, there is a rest inertial frame in the CBR. but what may not be obvious is that when you think of the earth as a bunch of particles, you think of it as though it is moving through spacetime. when you think of the earth as made of a bunch of solitonic resonances in aether, then you have a sort of aether density gradient moving through this region of the aether ocean universe. thus, the earth is distorting spacetime as it moves along precisely because the "atoms" are solitonic aether density gradients and resonances. There is no aether wind blowing past Earth, because the **earth** IS the aether wind blowing around the aether ocean in which the sun is a major local density gradient. > Actually this brings up another point. According to measurements, the >net velocity of the earth is dominated by the speed toward the great >attractor. (The other components are the rotation of the earth, the motion >of the sun towards Vega, the rotation of the sun around the center of the >galaxy, and the rotation of the earth around the sun.) Should the Tampere >disk experiments show a push toward the Great Attractor? I think it would >be too small to measure. However, Ross's superconducting propeller idea >should produce a detectable force. What you are missing is that you have the matter of the earth is more like a fog bank in an ocean of aether. So the aether is rotating with the earth's rotation, the earth's orbit, the sun's orbit, and the motion of the MW. Stars are all emitting aether. But don't confuse aether flow with blowing away spacetime or something. Just imagine you have acoustic sound nodes in a wind tunnel, and you turn on the air flow. The nodes don't blow away, they just shift slightly and that is it. From then on, you just move through a slightly shifted spacetime, and are none the wiser. All of the same topology exists, just distorted slightly so it is radically difficult to find these things. Near the earth, there is no wind, because the earth is itself, the wind of aether. The most important "wind" near the earth is the shearing due to the rotation of the earth. And that is why the Japanese experiment detected a slight change in mass due to different directions of rotation of the wheel. tampere ought to measure that same sort of thing, only at a greater amplitude due to the superior materials. but I doubt you will measure effects due to other displacements. There is, however, one additional effect that a very sensitive experiment like LIGO could potentially measure. This one is due to the pulsations being emitted by the sun. These occur at the primary frequency of the sun at 5 minute period (maximum intensity of waves), and have primary beat frequency at 66 micro Hz, ie 4 hours, with overtones at 160 minutes according to info from Ray Tomes. We have actually measured this using seismometers on earth. The earth rings like a bell, and the ringing is that of an underdamped oscillator, so the earth can ring for weeks after a major earthquake. Anyway, the aether waves heading out of the sun have the above periods, and when you subtract all of the earth quake induced ringing, it turns out that the earth is continuously ringing (Incessant Free Oscillations of the Earth, as they are called). Guess what the period of the ringing is? Yup, 5 minutes. Anyway, go for the propellor and cut me in on the royalties. You have to make the atomic layers in the crystalline lattice atomically flat in a helix to maximize the effect. I read about a new way of accomplishing that using chemicals a while ago in a physics news brief or in Sci Am or Science News, so goes the memory. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:33:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21464; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199804180227.TAA18492 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Resent-Message-ID: <"RgOMH3.0.zE5.n_0Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17679 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 04:24 PM 4/17/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: >>Interesting. I thought that the ZPE was velocity invariant. Is this >>a new theory or does it come out of standard quantum field theory? > > No to both. ZPE MAY be velocity invariant, but many of the recent gage >theories require that it not be. I know of several proposed tests, but >they all require "flat" space--out beyond Mars somewhere. But no one I >know of has ever proposed a rotating high temperature superconductor with >the planes perpendicular (or slanted) with respect to the axis. I'm not >sure it would be a practical reactionless propulsion system, but there may >be enough of an effect to be measurable. > > Robert I. Eachus >From Thomson's studies, pulsating spheres can match what we know about EM fields if they are in 180 or 0 degree phase relations. I use 0 to represent positive charge, and 180 to represent negative charge in my sub atomic models. But relative velocity distorts local spacetime. By that I mean the spacetime at the sub atomic scale. When the particles begin to fall out of phase resonance with one another AND, with spacetime (where spacetime is a standing wave topology to which these resonances are phase and frequency coupled, and which is the sum of all incident QVF or zpe wave energy arriving from similar particles from throughout the universe, time delayed for transit, ie no action at a distance). When the particles begin to shear, such as in a rotating fluid journal system, you will suddenly break into turbulent motions of the fluid when you break the "crystalline" fluid wave topology. If you do the same thing with the HTSC where you made a helical atomic structure sort of like a barber pole I guess, then each layer is shearing the aether in a sense. It isn't that simple, because the "particles" are really aether resoannces themselves. But, there is a net shearing and pumping from one layer to the next. Thus, the aether is pumped through the thing and will generate an aether vortex. That should produce thrust. And the thrust, I can imagine, could be just as strong as is the thrust or torque imposed on an electric motor because you are dealing with the identical resonances as in EM. They are all in the same family. In this case, you are essentially warping the spacetime around the conical rotating HTSC. But if you do not create the helical vortex, you will get no thrust because you will not be pumping the aether. This is the same as a helicopter getting no thrust from swinging some round pipes around in a circle. You need the helix plus the conical shape to resist the thing blowing apart at high rpm. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:37:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22490; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:33:27 -0700 Message-Id: <199804180233.TAA18970 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: RE: anyone working with a superconductor? Resent-Message-ID: <"NhlGe3.0.KV5.X51Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17680 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Frank > Do you think that the energy in the superconductive devices >magnetic field has enough energy to be a large enough equivalent mass to >have a large enough distortion of the space around it to modify the >distortion caused by the mass of the earth which we cause gravity. Think >General Relativity. >Hank > Forget the EM field strength. The nuclear energy in the tip of my pinkie finger is equal to a large nuclear weapon. So the energy in the HTSC disc is substantially larger. What you need to do, is to find a way to shear spacetime. If you think of spacetime as a "metric" what I say makes no sense. If you think of spacetime as a wave topology, it does. But you have to think in terms of waves with nodes at the Planck scale, E-35 meters. So the shearing occurs as the spacetime topology converges into the interior of the solitonic (sub atomic) topology. One causes the other to deviate in trajectory. Rotation, is the one thing you can do with a material to get it to be continuously accelerating, ergo the Unruh effect becomes applicable, despite the fact that it is in essence "not moving". The rotation is important precisely because the continuous acceleration means that the nuclei in the disk must be continuously forced inward by wave energy arriving from outside (ie there is no such thing as tensile forces). So you are shearing the incident wave energy and distorting the flow path of aether. Note, aether, and spacetime, are not synonomous any more than air and acoustic nodes are the same thing. One is a medium, the other a condition in the medium. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:48:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04605; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:47:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:47:07 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:54:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: March 29 CF'ers lose one Resent-Message-ID: <"jWI8N.0.o71.fG1Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17682 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was sorry to see in the Cold Fusion Times that CF researcher Kevin Leroy Wolf, March 29, 1942 - Sept. 11, 1997 died. He was a chemistry professor at Texas A&M University. That must have been a tough combination, CF positive results (neutrons) and working at TAMU. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 19:52:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25380; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:54:03 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom in the USA (and the world). Resent-Message-ID: <"zae1f3.0.UC6.BI1Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17681 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:12 AM 4/17/98, Craig Haynie wrote: >>There is no mechanism that is absolutely known to cause inflation to >>return, so there is no absolute guarantee 10 percent inflation will return >>and drive a calamity. On the other hand, there are no guarantees it won't. >>In fact, markets and interest rates are historically cyclical, even when >>brakes are put on them. The brakes sometimes just make the cycles more >>abrupt and chaotic. > >Disagree...It was Milton Friedman who demonstrated that inflation presents >itself in direct proportion to the increase in the broad money supply. Yes. Agreed. My wording did not convey the meaning intended. By "There is no mechanism that is absolutely known to cause inflation to return" I meant to say that no one knows absolutely at this point what events will come together, to cause inflation to return." BTW, I met Milton Friedman and his wife on a flight over 20 years ago. They seemed delighted when I showed them a 6" diameter reel of tape from my briefcase and explained I had installed the operating system software on the tape in about 10 locations at over $10,000 a piece. What tickled them, I think, is when I explained that the manufacturing was done at the customer's expense on his site when his computer copied the tape contents onto disk. Nearly the entire product value was in the information on the tape, and that provided by the product itself. The information provided by the product was, of course, information about the customer's computer's performance as it handled the customer's information. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 20:07:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27934; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:07:50 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"6JIY_.0.Nq6.4V1Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17683 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:30 PM 4/17/98, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: [snip] > ... I was afraid that if I posted it >the discussion going on then might get too acrimonious. [snip] Now, that's a fine fix you got us into Stan! Regards, Ollie From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 20:14:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08492; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:13:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:13:20 -0700 Message-ID: <35380D8A.154C gorge.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:18:50 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone wrk with Superconductors?] References: <199804171859.LAA09481 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5s3T71.0.Y42.Ff1Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17684 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > But if the atomic structure is > not nearly atomically flat, then you will be doing what we have been doing > for centuries with rotors, ie, it is the same thing as a helicopter with > round pipes for "blades". You get no lift from round pipes, and thus our > devices get no lift when we simply rotate a wheel. Yes... But... If you rotate the "pipes" around their respective long axes, (the correct direction relative to the relative wind) they WILL produce lift via the "Magnus effect." I say this not to be contradictory, but to suggest that the answers we are seeking must necessarily be found in "looking" at the questions from a different perspective. Since I can't quite grasp your theories, allow me to say it in a way I can understand. Suppose that any atom (or, for that matter, any proton or electon)is a "permanent vortex" in the aether, or in space/time, or...(??) Suppose each atom has some effect on the surrounding aether. It would seem then, that, in order to succeed, we need to either determine or guess at the direction that effect takes, and align all or most of the atoms are aligned so that the desired effect acts in the direction we want. To a certain extent, we already do this, in making permanent magnets. We just need to do the same thing relative to reflecting/focusing the Aether (space/time). Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 20:44:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04362; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35381416.1664 gorge.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:46:46 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off topic] DDoom and Gloom in the USA (and the world) References: <199804171859.LAA09481 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eren71.0.341.152Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17685 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > I am curious about the psychology of people who can believe in a perpetual > stock market parabolic rise. What is so different this time, besides scale? > I am not declaring that perpetual rise is impossible, but I would never > recommend relying heavily on it. > Even a cursory study of "bubbles" throughout history shows that the last stages of a "bubble" are defined by the fact that too many people "believe...in a perpetual...parabolic rise." whether it be South Seas stock, or Tulips, or the Dow Jones index. Then, ordinary people, who do not understand the market, (and should not invest) are encouraged by the "experts" to invest. This drives up the price, and the "experts" claim that the price is the same as the "value." [Classic self-fulfilling prophecy (or maybe Ponzi Scheme)] When the market has absorbed all of the money the amateur investors can borrow, the bubble bursts--there being no "Greater Fool" for the amateurs to sell to. Whether we have reached that state yet is open to question, but it sure looks near. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 17 21:58:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24319; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:57:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:57:30 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:55:22 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"FsCrT1.0.ux5.vA3Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17686 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - Jeff says the cylinder rotates steadily and nicely, and that although the brushes occasionally stick, he can see that when the contact is good and they're not sticking for the moment, the device is driven smoothly and continuously. He spent quite some time using different wires and strips for brushes, applying them to the ring in different positions and so forth, and he watched carefully to see that it wasn't just the flexible strips bucking and propelling the ring around. He dismisses this idea as a reason the thing rotates, and I believe that he's careful enough as an observer to make that call accurately. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 02:52:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06189; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353875DC.4092 worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:43:56 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: caduceuos waveguide? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RNs-z2.0.QW1.AR7Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17687 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: has anyone ever attempted winding a caduceuos coil with waveguide rather than ordinary wire? For some EHF experiments? BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 05:55:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA17955; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:54:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"fryQ71.0.SO4.l4AEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17688 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:55 PM 4/17/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > >Jeff says the cylinder rotates steadily and nicely, and that although the >brushes occasionally stick, he can see that when the contact is good and >they're not sticking for the moment, the device is driven smoothly and >continuously. He spent quite some time using different wires and strips for >brushes, applying them to the ring in different positions and so forth, and >he watched carefully to see that it wasn't just the flexible strips bucking >and propelling the ring around. He dismisses this idea as a reason the >thing rotates, and I believe that he's careful enough as an observer to >make that call accurately. > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI Where is this statement? Was it a private communication? Does "driven smoothly and continuously" mean for less than a revolution, or for over 100 revolutions? Approximately what RPM? So far it strikes me that the term "motor" is very loosely applied. It would be nice to hear from George Holz and Jeff Kooistra on this. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 05:58:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA30810; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:52:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:52:04 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01ca01bd6ac8$533493c0$548cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Photon Torpedos? Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 06:47:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"b_hkb1.0.KX7.o7AEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17689 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: In Space, a circularly polarized EM wave a meters or so in diameter rotating at a few gigahertz should act like a particle and create a vortex that taps into the ZPE extraction effect of vortices, and shrink down to a small radius with energy, E = kq^2/R. Should make a good-sized hole in a Klingon vessel when it hits it with S.O.L. momentum. :-) I think this is similar to the effect that "pumps" Cosmic Ray particles (neutrinos,protons,electrons etc.) up to energies of 1.0E20 ev or so where they can exceed c and go back in time. Might even explain the "missing Solar neutrinos" and why most neutrinos from Supernova 1987 arrived at the Earth thousands of years ago. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 06:05:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA31655; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 06:04:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 06:04:11 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:11:07 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: RE: anyone working with a superconductor? Resent-Message-ID: <"sNME82.0.Wk7.AJAEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17690 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would like to point out that a superconductor will not buy much over ordinary material, if anything. The energy availability in ZPE is proportional to the 4th power of the ZPE frequency tapped. Superconductors are only superconducting, i.e. zero resistance, for DC currents. The apparent mass of charge in the superconductor e* provides an apparent resistance in dynamic situations. The higher the frequency the higher the resistance in the superconductor. When you get into the arena where meaningful energy might be available from ZPE, i.e. x-rays, which are used to study magnetic vortecies in superconductors for example, the superconductor becomes transparent. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 07:13:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03414; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:08:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:08:45 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <7a0abcdc.3538b3c5 aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:08:03 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: is anyone working with superconductors Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"Dn-U81.0.Gr.iFBEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17691 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Do you think that the energy in the superconductive devices magnetic field has enough energy to be a large enough equivalent mass to have a large enough distortion of the space around it to modify the distortion caused by the mass of the earth which we cause gravity. Think General Relativity. Hank .............................................................................. .. No way do I believe that Hank! There is not enough mass within a superconductor to do anything to local space time. I do believe that the RANGE of the interaction between the forces changes within a condensed medium. This is what allows cold fusion and the Tempere effect to talk place. I pointed this out to Puthoff in the early 1980. My first attempts to publish this idea publication in the 1980's were rejected. David Josson published it first in early 1994 on Electromagnum. disk-chap-11-zpe at www.newphys.se It was again published on the Journal of New Energy vol 1, no 2 1996 page 133. Miley and I spoke about it at Wright Patterson last summer. Miley told me I needed more proof. This has nothing to do with anything except the length of the wavefunction k and the symmetry that exists between force and gravity. This is explained in my paper posted below. The Source of Inertial and Grav. Mass Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 07:51:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08110; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:49:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:49:53 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:48:15 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"Q2oYn3.0.Z-1.GsBEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17692 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-17 00:20:45 EDT, you write: > You might just want to cancel that order and go get a standard ~240 cu ft > cylinder of hydrogen. Scott, the cylinder/fill is not the problem. It is the regulator. I stopped by the passafuma yesterday and they said that Victor has finally shipped it. Should be here sometime next week. Maybe I should be thankful for the long delay. It gave me the time to get the vacuum system right. The no lead solder(Thanks to Warren Huyck) and the larger diameter tubing suggested by you really helped get the leaks out. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 08:18:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02144; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:12:52 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804181512.IAA19368 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: Vorts at ICCF Resent-Message-ID: <"sMBA-1.0.MX.XDCEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17694 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bob wrote: >It looks like there will be several Vorts at ICCF. Mike Carrell, George >Holz, and Michael Huffman replied to my earlier message that they may >attend, and I assume that Jed, Gene and Scott will be there. I will >arrive on Wednesday and stay through Friday. > >If any of you would like to get together to talk, I suggest we meet >after the banquet on Wednesday. If it is not too late, we can talk >then. Otherwise, we can make plans to go to lunch or dinner on Thursday. > >To figure out how to find each other, I could not come up with a good >Vortex equivalent of wearing a red carnation. Unless someone has a >better idea, I will just put a piece of paper on one of the banquet >tables that says "Vortex", and anyone who wants to join us is welcome. Hi Bob, You guys could all wear hankies on your heads, too. Take a picture, and send it to me. I'm not going to be able to go to the conference at all, I'm afraid, but I do have some excellent news. I've made arrangements to do some testing of my device as a desalinator aboard the M/V Polar Bear. For those of you that haven't read the account that I gave in the first issue of I.E., the M/V Polar Bear is a big, floating, fish freezer that goes from Seattle, up to Alaska, and freezes salmon for great big fun, and lots of profit. The boat has a desalinator or a "watermaker" that boils water in a vacuum chamber, condenses it, and runs it into a potable water tank. The filtered seawater is introduced to the vacuum chamber via a high pressure jet that is designed to break up the stream of water into very tiny droplets. The droplets evaporate much quicker than a stream of water, because of the increased surface area of each droplet versus the surface area of a stream of water. From the research that I've done on cavitation, and from my own experimental observations, I have found that under the right conditions, cavitation will produce a massive number of what have been termed as cavitation microbubbles (CMB). These CMB's are unique from normal areation bubbles in a number of ways. First of all, the bubbles have been found to have a very uniform size, although, they are so small, they are only visible in the aggregate. I believe that they have been measured to be around 100 microns in diameter. Under the right conditions, I have gotten bubble densities out of my device that actually make water look like milk. Oddly enough, these CMB's won't float out of the solution, either. They stay in suspension for long periods of time. I mean like even up to a year, according to one source. Another unique feature of a CMB is a percentage of the bubbles will contain a free radical as the gas. This gives the bubble a charge value, as well, that would be different from a normal areation bubble. A very small percentage of the CMB's would also contain H2O2, which is formed by the exposure of H2O and entrained free oxygen to the UV light and soft Xrays emitted during the bubble collapse phase of the cavitation. H2O2, and free radicals both attack bacterial, viral, and organic matter, in that order, I believe, and oxidize it. This, of course, releases heat via combustion, and it is a quite efficient and safe method of burning particulate matter under water. This is even true of difficult to burn particulates, such as asbestos, according to one study. My idea is to cavitate the seawater just prior to the introduction of the seawater into the vacuum chamber of the desalinator. My reasoning is this: A droplet of water has a static diameter and surface area that decreases uniformly in the absence of pressure due to evaporation. It will have a more or less smooth, measurable surface, as layer upon layer of water molecules are pulled off the droplet by the vacuum. If the droplet contained a gazzillioon microbubbles, however, the surface area would be popping, chaotic, and much, much larger. The rate of evaporation should be enhanced by a great deal, simply because the surface of the droplet would be constantly fizzing with these microbubbles that would be coming to the surface at a rapid rate. The burning of some of the microbes and organic matter that are in the seawater will also create heat and chaotic droplet dynamics that will accelerate the evaporation rate. I think this should work out fairly well. I expect the droplet to positively explode as soon as it hits the vaccuum. I also thought about running a tap through the hole of the jet to make the water spiral through it, as it entered the vaccum chamber. This would add some kinetic energy to the droplet, and the droplets may form somthing like an expanding vortex shape, with maybe a gas cloud around it as a lubricant to interface with the vacuum. The spinning droplet may form a low pressure zone in its center that is elongated somewhat, and it may cause the droplet to boil from the inside out, increasing the surface area even more. There are all kinds of possibilities to this. I hope to be able to report to the group how the experiment works, but at this time, I don't know exactly where the testing will take place. If we are at the Eggigick River (sp), there is a possibility that we may have a radiophone connection that would not be too expensive for email purposes. I suppose even a cellphone would work, these days, up there. This is my first "out-of-the-lab" type application of my machine, and I am quite excited to try the idea out. The opportunity couldn't have come at a better time, too. Alaska is just incredibly beautiful at this time of the year. Rainbows seem to be around every bend. The trip up the inside passage is fantastic, the Gulf is normally as flat as a pancake, maybe a stop in Kodiak or Chiknik to refuel, a shoot through False Pass, bear North past the puffins, and you're there! You're in the land of bears, moose, caribou, fox, giant birds, and a million salmon. Actually, I think that you should all drop what you're doing, and come along. We'll be pulling out at the end of May, and they haven't hired a crew yet, so there's still plenty of room onboard. Call me just a tad prejudiced about that place. Even if you can't come along, you can give me a hand with something if you like. I have too much work to do to get ready for this adventure, and I'm not sure I could figure this out in my lifetime anyway, but there are a few questions that maybe one or more of you might care to answer. 1. Given that the average CMB is 100 microns in diameter, and the average droplet size, as it enters the vacuum chamber, is approximately 1/32" in diameter, how many CMB's could I possibly fit into that sized droplet? 2. What would the weight difference be between a normal droplet of seawater and a droplet of the same size containing the above number of microbubbles. 3. How fast would I have to spin up a droplet containing these microbubbles to make it overcome the ambient 29" vacuum, and form a void? Do you think that it would be possible that this void could be made to collapse back into itself? Would this take energy from the vacuum? 4. The vacuum chamber itself is made of stainless steel that is only about 1/16th" thick with an internal frame. Do you think that if I could attach a transducer to the outside of the chamber and drive it with an oscillating frequency, I could boil the water any faster? 5. How would the bubbles affect the speed of sound through the droplet? I've got a million more questions, but I've got to go. Any other suggestions or help with these questions will earn you the revered title of Most Honorable Bubblehead in the Cavitation College Hall of Fame. Thanks, -Knuke PS. I know that this is probably hard to follow without drawings and references, but if you think you might happen to be in the Seattle area, on your way to or from ICCF or any other place, between now and the end of next month, give me a call, and I can arrange to show you exactly what I am planning to do. Michael T. Huffman Huffman Technology Company Where tests have proved that inside every bubble, there is a rainbow. 1825 Nagle Place #210 Seattle, WA 98122 (206)325-2461 knuke aa.net http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 08:55:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05721; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:52:13 -0700 Message-Id: <199804181552.IAA09532 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: ??Puthoff?? Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Resent-Message-ID: <"QYKz8.0.JP1.NoCEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17696 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:17 -0700, tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) >wrote: > >>The zpe, whatever the shape of the spectrum, ought to permeate all space. >>Thus, like the CBR, it ought to be velocity variant, IMO. Perhaps Puthoff >>can comment further on his take on this as he is more into zpe than I. > >The ZPE is believed to be Lorentz invariant over the range of >frequencies that interacts with matter - otherwise the planets would not >stay in their orbits. To satisfy this condition it must have energy >proportional to frequency cubed. > >The CMBR is NOT Lorentz invariant. It has a black body radiation curve. > >-- Ray Tomes Interesting Ray. I don't work with those notions myself, but with the spacetime wave energy I do study, I have essentially two components. First, there is the organized wave topology I call spacetime, and this has a regular nodal pattern. By this I don't mean a bunch of nice neat cubes. Rather, I am studying a quadrature structure in 4D. But this structure can compress or expand depending on the velocity of the wave energy setting up the interference pattern, and that velocity is a function of the aether density. The source of driving these waves was originally the big bang boiling of the aether condensate, IMO, and what we call particles today are the remaining droplets of that boiling process. The boiling continues today, and we call it exothermy in general, and fusion is the primary source of release of vapor aether today. Thus, aether is flowing out of stars. But re zpe, there must be a superposed component of the zpe coming from the spacetime organized waves that are out in distant space in the distant universe. Thus, those waves ARE red shifted relative to us. Those are the waves that give my model, "gravity" via pushing objects that are well timed to one another toward one another via, at the most base level, a filtering, or phase and frequency shift of that incident out of time wave energy. I cannot see that such wave energy could be velocity invariant, thus I guess I don't see any form of what you are referring to as zpe in my models. I do see plenty of wave energy to suppose to tap into, though I personally don't see any way to tap into it strongly except for building an aether turbine and working only with the component that is due to gravitation via using the earth to filter out some of it and allow you a differential signal. I suppose a turbine spinning fast enough to "straddle" the spacetime beating might get the outer region of the rotor in frequency match with spacetime at a certain beat, and the inner region could do the same at a different beat, thus locking that rotor to that angular velocity regardless of how much energy you pull out of the turbine. Radical even for my ideas, but the only other alternative is to build a very massive rotor. It seems to me that nature would provide a more elegant solution! Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 11:26:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22345; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:22:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <020101bd6af6$1f17e280$548cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Circularly-Polarized-Microwave Vortex O/U Generator Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:15:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"GTW-W3.0.xS5.YzEEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17697 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: The circularly polarized EM waves in a vacuum waveguide-cavity resonator should act as a S.O.L. "propeller" that drags the aether into a vortex with it's radial axis radius R = kq^2/E having FTL capability. The 2.45 gigahertz TE(1.2) mode will require a cylindrical waveguide about 12 cm in diameter and about a meter long,with a section with an absorber material such as a granulized semiconductor where the primary and O/U "ZPE" heat can be extracted. Also, there is a likelihood that an unbalanced axial thrust will be acting on structure. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 13:27:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20568; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:17:11 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"2mu0X3.0.D15.ChGEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17698 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Where is this statement? > Was it a private communication? Yes, e-mail. I asked him about your idea. He thinks it would be quite an engineering challenge to design a motor that actually does work on the principle you describe. I didn't ask about specific RPMs, but we are talking about continuous spinning in multiples of 360 degrees, not some partial turns. The thing actually works, Horace. It may be difficult to explain in conventional terms, but the problem can't be avoided simply by dismissing the account of a spinning rotor as having something to do with a fantastic scheme of rapidly alternating stick-flex-release-repeat brushes. With an idea as remarkable and novel as the one you propose, perhaps you should make a version of it yourself to show that the idea has practical merit. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 14:04:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00128; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:00:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:57:36 EDT To: olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kkgtt2.0.t1.MHHEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17699 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/17/98 5:23:33 PM, olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu quoted: <<(Imagine > a ball flying at 90% of the speed of light. The ZPE hitting the front of > the ball is blue shifted and the ZPE on the back is red shifted relative to > the ball. This causes the ball to slow down. For the ZPE to create no > drag, the spectrum of the ZPE would have to be such as to require infinite > energy.)>> Not true. Whereas the concept of drag from movement through a random radation field is correct for all other cases, it is not the case for the ZPE, only because of the cubic freq distribution. Fort a cubic freq distribution, as one component in the front blusehifts up, another blueshifts up to take its place and the distribution is left unchanged; same for the red shift behind. More specifically, the drag force goes as u - (du/dw)(w/3), where u is energy density per unit freq interval, and which vanishes for a cubic (and cubic only) freq distribution. The bottom line is that the ZPE is Lorentz invariant, and motion thru it at constant velocity is undetectable by drag force or any other means. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 14:09:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01626; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:04:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Puthoff Message-ID: <97540598.3539140d aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:58:50 EDT To: tessien oro.net, vortex-l@eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: ??Puthoff?? Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"YS_Aa3.0.IP.kLHEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17700 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/17/98 8:29:44 PM, tessien oro.net wrote: <> I did, under the title that ends in (no ZPE drag) Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 15:35:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20190; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980418120602.006d4fd0 postoffice.ptd.net> X-Sender: revtec postoffice.ptd.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:06:02 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: jeff fink Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980417202821.00bbfc70 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"6Kk423.0.Lx4.GcIEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17701 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At >Ok, seriously - any book recommendations for someone who knows "" and wants >to learn a little bit about this kind of trading? Somehow I get the >impression that an amateur with 10k to play is NOT going to have fun with >that sort of thing, but what do I know... > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > > >I played commodities options with $10k as a starter. I did well. It took me a whole year to loose all of it. You may want to try something else. Jeff Fink From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 15:54:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24929; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35392EE6.5695 loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:53:26 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] References: <199804171748.KAA29902 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CUgzv3.0.J56.LrIEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17702 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > > If you truly want to build an anti gravity device, all you need to do is to > use a net thrust imposed on the aether. ie, just like a helicopter blade or > a jet turbine blade, but at the atomic scale. > > With an HTSC disc you ought to be able to do this. The conical design is > good, but you need to fabricate it other than with simply layers. You need > to form a helical layer. > It is not clear to me why the layers need to be at the atomic scale. Even the atomic scale is large compared to wavelengths at the Planck frequency (E45 Hz according to Ross). It seems like you might as well make a much larger blade. It is also not clear why you need a superconductor. It seems like anything that interacts with the aether would do. In other words, the higher the density the better. But any device fashioned like a roter blade would also function as a fan, and that would perterb the results. It could be tested in a vacuum, but that would be difficult. Easier would be to fill in the gaps with some other less-dense substance to prevent the fan action. So this suggests a simple experiment. Build a barber-pole type device to be a rotating solid cylinder with one "color" made of low density material (say plastic) and the other high density material (iron or lead). Orient it vertically and rotate it as fast as possible. Measure g above and below with it rotating and not. For extra credit, substitute superconducting wire for the high density material. But these are such obvious experiments, I am sure they have already been done hundreds of times ;>). Unfortunately, even if the theory was right, I would suspect that the rotation speed would need a linear velocity on the same order as the time for the aether wave to pass through the vertical direction (close to c), and delta-g would be on the same order of magnitude as the ratio of the mass of the rotor compared to the earth's mass. I vaguely remember Scott having some failed attempts to measure gravity variations from movement of massive objects. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 16:21:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02371; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:18:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <002801bd6b1f$78a55020$5c8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:12:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"-v8m92.0.ya.xIJEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17703 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Bob Horst To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] Simpler than that,Bob. A bunch of electrons circling in a cylindrical magnetron makes a great "propeller" to swish the Aether around with. At 510 Kev the electrons have doubled in mass and are moving at 87% of c. The radius swept by the swarm: R = 2*9.1E-31*0.87*3E8/q*B = 3E-3/B. So at 200 gauss R = 0.148 meters or about 6". At 99.9 c, gamma = 22.36 or 22.36*510 Kev = 11.4 Mev. This would take a small "Betatron" setup to create the Aether Vortex.At 99.999*c, gamma = 223.60 (114 Mev) I think that if you shine a Laser beam down through the axis of the vortex you will measure a FTL velocity due to thinning of the Aether. Regards, Frederick >Ross Tessien wrote: >> >> If you truly want to build an anti gravity device, all you need to do is to >> use a net thrust imposed on the aether. ie, just like a helicopter blade or >> a jet turbine blade, but at the atomic scale. >> >> With an HTSC disc you ought to be able to do this. The conical design is >> good, but you need to fabricate it other than with simply layers. You need >> to form a helical layer. >> > >It is not clear to me why the layers need to be at the atomic scale. Even the atomic scale is large compared >to wavelengths at the Planck frequency (E45 Hz according to Ross). It seems like you might as well make a >much larger blade. > >It is also not clear why you need a superconductor. It seems like anything that interacts with the aether >would do. In other words, the higher the density the better. > >But any device fashioned like a roter blade would also function as a fan, and that would perterb the results. >It could be tested in a vacuum, but that would be difficult. Easier would be to fill in the gaps with some >other less-dense substance to prevent the fan action. > >So this suggests a simple experiment. Build a barber-pole type device to be a rotating solid cylinder with >one "color" made of low density material (say plastic) and the other high density material (iron or lead). >Orient it vertically and rotate it as fast as possible. Measure g above and below with it rotating and not. > >For extra credit, substitute superconducting wire for the high density material. > >But these are such obvious experiments, I am sure they have already been done hundreds of times ;>). > >Unfortunately, even if the theory was right, I would suspect that the rotation speed would need a linear >velocity on the same order as the time for the aether wave to pass through the vertical direction (close to >c), and delta-g would be on the same order of magnitude as the ratio of the mass of the rotor compared to the >earth's mass. I vaguely remember Scott having some failed attempts to measure gravity variations from movement >of massive objects. > >-- Bob > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 18 17:12:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10502; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:15:58 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"4RB4y2.0.zZ2.-3KEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17704 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:17 AM 4/18/98, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Horace - > > > Where is this statement? > > Was it a private communication? > >Yes, e-mail. I asked him about your idea. He thinks it would be quite an >engineering challenge to design a motor that actually does work on the >principle you describe. Yes, that is precisely the point I made. It appears there is no public statement that there is a working practical motor, so the sticking brush explanation is plenty adequate for the performance description used thus far. I see no public statement by *anyone* saying that they have a working Marinov motor demonstrating a longitudinal force, i.e. free of MHD forces due to mercury, etc. Without such a public statement or preferably dialog from Kooistra or anyone else who has such a motor I think we are talking about wishful thinking here. > >I didn't ask about specific RPMs, but we are talking about continuous >spinning in multiples of 360 degrees, not some partial turns. I still haven't seen any first hand statements indicating the performance. Is the armature coasting? What kind of load can it carry while making multiple rotations? >The thing >actually works, Horace. It may be difficult to explain in conventional >terms, but the problem can't be avoided simply by dismissing the account of >a spinning rotor as having something to do with a fantastic scheme of >rapidly alternating stick-flex-release-repeat brushes. > The burden is on the Kooistra to make clear exactly *what* he is saying happened, otherwise there is not even anything to dimiss. The fact I can spin my lazy suzan with bubble gum on my finger does not make for new physical law. >With an idea as remarkable and novel as the one you propose, perhaps you >should make a version of it yourself to show that the idea has practical >merit. The idea is not remarkable. It fits the description povided by Jeff Koosistra thus far. Lorentz force can account for all the peformance statements I have seen thus far, and which I posted already. It could be considered dismal and meaningless performance, without further detailed clarification. Somehow, "Did a Tim Allen with more power and some bare #24 wire--got nice torque." is just not an experiment description adequate to discredit Lorentz. What is a "Tim Allen" BTW? Take a look at the J shaped flimsy aluminum foil brushes on page 42 in IE No. 17 and then tell me what kind of motor performance you would expect from such flimsy brushes without extensive manual intervention. In fact, the picture is not of a motor capable of lots of revolutions. The ring, as shown, is described as suspended on thread. Not going to get a lot of revolutions out of that I would take it. If there is a new motor, let's hear about it! Otherwise there appears to be nothing to all this but a lot of misunderstanding. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 02:19:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA03923; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:15:53 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"FApWk1.0.7z.G5SEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17705 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace - > Yes, that is precisely the point I made. It > appears there is no public statement that > there is a working practical motor, so the > sticking brush explanation is plenty adequate > for the performance description used thus > far. There is a "working" motor, but it's only "practical" for showing a principle. I don't think he has ever mentioned the goal of this being the development of a practical motor. It's a demonstration of a "motor" that runs without an apparent I X B. If a cheaply assembled proof of that concept isn't good enough for you, then so be it. He has publicly described it and announced that it works. I have done the armature spin version, and clearly there is torque from ring to armature, so it stands to reason that the reverse is true. I've also known Jeff for some time, and I know he's not just making this all up, or that the brushes are flexing and pushing the thing. He told me that the rotation is steady when the brushes are making continuous smooth contact, he has also used stiff brushes,and I have no reason doubt that he knows what he is talking about here. > Is the armature coasting? No, he has made it clear that it is continuously being driven. From the picture, it looks like it wouldn't have the mass to do any significant coasting with the brushes touching it. It's a copper ring on a cardbaord tube of some sort. > What kind of load can it carry while making > multiple rotations? Not sure, but it can overcome brush friction. > The burden is on the Kooistra to make clear > exactly *what* he is saying happened, > otherwise there is not even anything to > dimiss. Yes, the burden is on him to provide clear details. He's in the process of doing that. There's more coming in issue #19 of IE where details about the brush arrangements should put the question to rest. The guy's a tinkerer like me, but he has a growing family to support as a writer, so he doesn't devote time to this sort of thing like a Jean-Louis Naudin can. Give him a little time - everything doesn't happen all at once. > The ring, as shown, is described as suspended > on thread. Not going to get a lot of revolutions > out of that I would take it. I thought you were concerned at first that it wouldn't really do even one revolution. Now the 20 or 30 it might get hanging on a thread aren't enough. Oh well. > Otherwise there appears to be nothing to all > this but a lot of misunderstanding. I think you're making an effort not to understand. Worse, you're making an effort to dismiss it based on an idea you thought up without any actual testing! It certainly was a point worth bringing up and asking, but it has been checked for and firmly discounted by Jeff. The answer is in on that. But if you want to continue your belief that he's still being fooled by something like that despite his claims, go ahead take the last word now and dismiss it. I don't see any reason to pursue this point about the Kooistra motor any further. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 02:34:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14299; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:33:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:33:24 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980418120602.006d4fd0 postoffice.ptd.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980417202821.00bbfc70 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:32:52 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice Resent-Message-ID: <"43fci1.0.JV3.YJSEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17706 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jeff - > I played commodities options with $10k as a > starter. I did well. It took me a whole year to > loose all of it. You may want to try something > else. Sorry to hear it, I know someone else who did the same thing. I was curious about stocks though, maybe it's different. But risk is risk - if high enough, you will probably lose. That's why I *do* try something different! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 02:41:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05687; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3539C599.692 worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:36:25 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: magnetic resonance Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5PL_x3.0.nO1.HQSEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17707 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all! I forget who it was, I think is was Norm, who posted about using a good sig gen and scope to find the resonance of a magnet, I was wondering if you could use a white noise generator outputted into the coil which is wrapped around the magnet, and by reducing the output of the white noise generator until only one frequency (the resonance) is left over? Anybody care to interject? BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 04:18:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA11291; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:11:14 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <3539DC72.1C052DB6 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:13:54 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: magnetic resonance References: <3539C599.692 worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"W9ZfE3.0.Km2.IrTEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17708 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Perry wrote: > > Hi all! > > I forget who it was, I think is was Norm, who posted about using a good > sig gen and scope to find the resonance of a magnet, I was wondering if > you could use a white noise generator outputted into the coil which is > wrapped around the magnet, and by reducing the output of the white noise > generator until only one frequency (the resonance) is left over? > Anybody care to interject? > BillP Hi, This is research area of Greg Watson who determined delays and reflections experimentally on soft and hard ferromagnetic materials. When delay and reflection is present, resonances will occurs inevitably, at least in macroscopic scale. There could be even more interesting resonance modes which relay the microscopic structure of the magnet and may lead to OU. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 04:24:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA11859; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3539DDCC.4D74 worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:19:40 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: magnetic resonance References: <3539C599.692 worldnet.att.net> <3539DC72.1C052DB6@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"djSM31.0.Dv2.1xTEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17709 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > This is research area of Greg Watson who determined delays and reflections experimentally on soft and hard ferromagnetic materials. When delay and reflection is present, resonances will occurs inevitably, at least in macroscopic scale. > Regards, > > hamdi ucar Does Greg have a website? just curious. BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 08:54:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17231; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:52:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:52:28 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001d01bd6baa$abc26ca0$148cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Faster Than Light, Phase Velocity Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:46:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"FwB_h3.0.7D4.vsXEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17710 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: The dashed lines Perpendicular to the direction of propagation indicate the successive positive maxima of a wave incident on a boundary shown separated by the spaces. If time Tc is the time of one cycle,then during Tc seconds the wave front or crest will move the distance of the spacing (lambda). Thus the velocity will be: v = Lambda/Tc. At the same time an observer on the surface of incidence (the vertical line) will note that in time Tc a crest will move vertically at a velocity parallel to the incident surface: phase velocity, vp = lambda/Tc*sin theta where theta is the angle of the wave wrt the normal to the vertical surface. This "phase velocity" is commonly 137*c in the QED physics. -------------------------------| \ \ \ \ | \ \ \ \ | \ \ \ \ | \ \ \ \| | Remember, that the dashed lines are perpendicular to the wave direction which is at angle theta wrt the horizontal. In QED, particle Spin mvr = hbar, v = 137*c. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 09:28:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07088; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804191621.MAA17862 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 12:25:55 -0000 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"d_L-o3.0.fk1.uMYEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17711 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Yes, that is precisely the point I made. It appears there is no public >statement that there is a working practical motor, so the sticking brush >explanation is plenty adequate for the performance description used thus >far. I see no public statement by *anyone* saying that they have a working >Marinov motor demonstrating a longitudinal force, i.e. free of MHD forces >due to mercury, etc. Without such a public statement or preferably dialog >from Kooistra or anyone else who has such a motor I think we are talking >about wishful thinking here. Horace, I have video tape from Kooistra to show anyone who wants to see it working. It IS rotating continuously. I think there is essentially ZERO doubt that this is a bona fide EM anomally. I will show the tape to anyone who wants to see it at ICCF7 -- I have it with me. There will be a complete story in IE#19 later in May. Best, Gene Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 Ph: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 12:20:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16958; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:16:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:16:27 -0700 Message-ID: <353A4D97.A87 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:16:39 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WtuOJ2.0.n84.8saEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17712 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, Horace and Rick! Sheesh, I leave town for a day or two and you guys are nearing the fist fight stage! First, Rick, I agree with you about the rotating magnet torque - my tests with a stationary ring and rotating magnets showed a strong torque on the magnets in what I think is the normal "Marinov" configuration. The magnets wanted to rotate 90 degrees to the null torque position. My cart tests showed a strong side thrust (this would produce a magnet torque as in the above fixed-ring test.) when the magnet + cart was opposite a tee-junction as per one brush location in a Marinov motor. When the cart was far away from the junction, there was no cart force - this was at about 300 amp in each of the two legs (straight wire) being fed by the "brush" simulator conductor. Now, my wife calls me a lot of things other than infalible, and I'm sorry there are not several other replications of Jeff's motor out there. I think I made a darn good copper ring and bearings and I think that my final pair of graphite brushes provided FAIR performance. Now, my Radio Shack magnets suck compared to some really high-energy ones, but they are all I have now. They gave good indications on all the tests where I could pass 300 amps or so in the conductors. My motor currents were limited to about 40 amps but the motor failed to give a hint of torque when I would hand-spin it in either direction. My conclusion was only that in my magnet-flawed tests, I saw no effect that was not easily explained by normal Lorentz forces. I think that Mike Schaffer is right in saying that the only really good indication of ring torque is ring rotation with burshes - as Jeff says he has achieved. I think what we need is replication rather than argument. Is anyone out there interested in making another Marinov motor with high-energy magnets? If there is serious interest, I could help with a 1/4 inch dia. shaft on two really good ball bearings. The shaft has each end drilled and tapped for 8-32 screw threads. I might be able to supply a 3 inch dia. copper ring, but without a lathe for precision mounting, etc., I'm not sure this is a great help. It takes time and effort for me to setup and cut the copper ring on the lathe and I have other things I want to work on. But, if someone out there can convince me that they can and would make a serious attempt at a motor, maybe I could work up the spunk to help. Seeing the tape Gene Mallove offers at ICCF7 would be interesting and I hope to hear news of this. But, the only reason I built a Marinov motor was because Jeff says he has one running. I'm now at the stage where I want to see OTHERS have similar success. This Marinov motor is no CF - it is conceptually very simple and, if all it takes is good magnets, - I'm waiting! BTW, Rick, I value your many related tests on this subject and just because I differ in my conclusions on many of the tests doesn't detract from my interest in them. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 13:35:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09908; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: jack mail1.centuryinter.net Message-ID: <353A073D.6C852BFD mail.pc.centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:16:29 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.0.31 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: BLP Run #14 References: <3.0.1.32.19980415084930.00b98858 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="x" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="x" Resent-Message-ID: <"rS6yn.0.kQ2.JubEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17713 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little wrote: Jack Smith asked about Run #14.... We never saw a peep of excess heat and they never even lifted a finger to assist us. ... Hi Scott, BLP is probably so far ahead that they see no need to make any concessions; but there may be alternative approaches which they have not thought of. Regardless of the risks and benefits involved, their decision is unfortunate. The other issue which you raise deserves some discussion: "We never saw ..." Some time ago you shared a Scientific American Frontiers program with a young lady whose science project examined whether or not touch therapists could tell which of their hands her hand was hovering over. Their detection rate was no better than chance. Recently, her further work was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. The touch therapist success rate was only 44%, a slight but interesting negative correlation. Consider another experiment in which the effect of fertilizer brand on petunia growth is to be determined. Soil, seeds, and fertilizer are added to each pot, BUT NO WATER. At the end of a month, it is concluded that fertilizer brand has no effect on petunia growth. How is the "no effect" result of the touch therapist experiment similar to that of the petunia experiment? Suppose the touch therapists are used in an experiment to determine whether or not humans can give blood to each other. In this case, a few drops of blood from the experimenter are mixed with a sample of blood from each therapist. Using a magnifying glass, no clumping of the blood (which would be disastrous in someones' veins) is observed (the experimenter is O- ). It is concluded that anyone can give blood to anyone. Ridiculous? Just as people have different blood types, they may have different "fields" or "auras". The petunia experiment is even more complicated if the effect of each fertilizer brand is optimized with a different amount of water. The BLP situation is several orders of magnitude more complex than the other experiments mentioned here, and "no effect" should be perceived as only the result in the specific experiments conducted so far. Jack Smith From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 13:44:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13762; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:46:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Resent-Message-ID: <"r6Wtd1.0.pM3.36cEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17714 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:25 AM 4/19/98, E.F. Mallove wrote: [snip] >I have video tape from Kooistra to show anyone who wants to see it >working. It IS rotating continuously. I think there is essentially ZERO >doubt that this is a bona fide EM anomally. I will show the tape to >anyone who wants to see it at ICCF7 -- I have it with me. There will be a >complete story in IE#19 later in May. [snip] OK, I'll wait for IE#19 to see what it's all about. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 14:00:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16961; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3538CD32.2B7EB302 ro.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:56:34 -0500 From: "Patrick V. Reavis" Organization: NASA Volunteer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Fwd: Anyone work with Superconductors?] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199804171748.KAA29902 Au.oro.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"qkSkF.0.w84.8LcEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17715 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross Tessien wrote: > > > With an HTSC disc you ought to be able to do this. The conical design > is > good, but you need to fabricate it other than with simply layers. You > need > to form a helical layer. > > ie, if you rotate the htsc as you deposit the films, you will form a > spiral > helix at the atomic level, or close to it. for each turn, you will > increase > the ability of the device to thrust aether. But if the atomic > structure is > not nearly atomically flat, then you will be doing what we have been > doing > for centuries with rotors, ie, it is the same thing as a helicopter > with > round pipes for "blades". You get no lift from round pipes, and thus > our > devices get no lift when we simply rotate a wheel. > Ross, I mentioned, during a meeting with the Delta-G team, my intention to fabricate a HTSC with just such a helical design. My reasoning was different, however. I only wanted to increase the surface area of two layers of a two inch diameter disk (a variation on Podkletnov's design). Your ideas on Aether flow give me yet one more reason to try... -- Patrick V. Reavis Student at Large /\ / \ / G \ ~~~~~~~~ DELTA-G From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 16:21:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10653; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980419181329.006b4ab4 acs-popmail.uchicago.edu> X-Sender: mskalfus acs-popmail.uchicago.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:13:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mason Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"DZHef.0.Lc2.fOeEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17716 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I saw a post on this thread about how someone had heard that a duck quack has no echo- and nobody knows why. The person who wrote the message was wondering if that is true, and I did not see that anyone gave him a good reply. I also recently heard about this and I am wondering if anyone has information on the subject. Thanks. (mason uchicago.edu) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 16:29:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11849; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000601bd6beb$128589f0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:29:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"3GgIV.0.0v2.3WeEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17717 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mason, do you want to hear the Duck Quack? -----Original Message----- From: Mason To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 4:18 PM Subject: Unidentified subject! >I saw a post on this thread about how someone had heard that a duck quack >has no echo- and nobody knows why. The person who wrote the message was >wondering if that is true, and I did not see that anyone gave him a good >reply. I also recently heard about this and I am wondering if anyone has >information on the subject. Thanks. (mason uchicago.edu) > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 16:34:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09541; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:30:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:30:55 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bd6bec$00201b80$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:36:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"M0DGV2.0.lK2.jaeEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17718 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Sorry Mason, If you want to hear the Duck Quack, go to http://www.transmutation.com please wait for the download transfer of the duck.wav -----Original Message----- From: Mason To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 4:18 PM Subject: Unidentified subject! >I saw a post on this thread about how someone had heard that a duck quack >has no echo- and nobody knows why. The person who wrote the message was >wondering if that is true, and I did not see that anyone gave him a good >reply. I also recently heard about this and I am wondering if anyone has >information on the subject. Thanks. (mason uchicago.edu) > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 18:32:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04101; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000601bd6beb$128589f0$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:24:27 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Quacks me up, it does... Resent-Message-ID: <"22kBY2.0.-_.VHgEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17719 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe - I asked here twice recently about the crucible lid sealing so I can try the transmutation experiment from your web site, and you don't respond. Somebody asks about duck quack echoes, and you immediately respond - twice. * * * I guess *I* must be the duck! That's the only logical explanation. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 18:44:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07937; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:39:17 -0700 Message-ID: <002701bd6bfd$f0063b00$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> From: "Joe Champion" To: Subject: Re: Quacks me up, it does... Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:45:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"3j6z51.0.xx1.3TgEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17720 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 6:27 PM Subject: Quacks me up, it does... >Joe - > >I asked here twice recently about the crucible lid sealing so I can try the >transmutation experiment from your web site, and you don't respond. > Sorry Rick, I replied outside of Vortex. The lid is "not sealed." the crucible has a smooth, but not machined surface. Again, my apologies, Joe "Quack the Duck" Champion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 19:39:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17340; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:28:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <003601bd6c03$4b6d5500$418cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Casimir Force Fallacy and Vortex ZPE? Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:22:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"97ZiF.0.jE4.ZBhEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17721 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: The Capacitance of Space eo, 8.84E-12 Farads/meter a length-only property sets the capacitance of a metal sphere of radius R at 4(pi)R*eo (farads). Further for a particle: R = kq^2/E, where E = .5CV^2 and q = CV = (a constant) 1.602E-19 Coulombs, indicating that as C decreases, V must increase. Yet for two plates in vacuum with spacing s and area A: C = eo*A/s (farads). However, with no charge on either plate: q = CV = 0 , then C = 0/V or V = q*s/(eo*A) = 0. :-) Force F = dW/ds = (0.5*V^2)* (dC/ds)= 0? Is the So-Called "Casimir Force" simply a matter of residual (and minute) charge-potential difference on the "plates? Nature seems to put ZPE into particles merely by employing Vortices ie., Circular Strings or Quarks, where the length-only capacitance of Space C (or eo*length) and Potential V , q = CV (constant) and Energy E = 0.5*CV^2 (and spin mvr) is all that is required of the "ZPE Reservoir" (Aether). IOW there is No EM ZPE until a Vortex comes into existence, or an ensemble of atoms is disturbed??? :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 19 20:13:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24241; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:05:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002701bd6bfd$f0063b00$629acccf champion.goodnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:02:37 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Quacks me up, it does... Resent-Message-ID: <"1bbkV.0.dw5.SjhEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17722 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Joe - > I replied outside of Vortex. I never saw that one, but thanks for the detail about the crucible. I understand it's to be well closed but not pressure sealed. Thanks Joe, - Quack Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 05:53:50 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09441; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353B423B.525B interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:40:27 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: STENGER'S MARINOV Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------33993E715F73" Resent-Message-ID: <"2FyaA2.0.RJ2.bHqEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17723 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------33993E715F73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vortexians: For what it's worth, I used Win95's "Paint" program to draw a basic sketch of the Marinov motor device I constructed. I converted the bmp file to GIF format and attached it to this post (I hope!). I plan to mothball this project and get on with some other good stuff. I'll hang on to the hardware and maybe I can get some high-energy magnets to try in it the next time I'm in "R & D Electronics" in Cleveland (OH). Anyone interested is probably familiar with the scale drawing (GIF) of the magnet and ring layout that Scott L. put up on his site for me. The sketch below is "roughly" to scale - but I mean ROUGH! 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t7rWvS52s6vd7XK3u979LnjDK97xkre85j0vetOr3vWyt73ufS984yvf+dK3vva9L37zq9/9 8re//v0vgAMs4AETuMAGPjCCE6zgBTO4wQ5+MIQjLOEJU7jCFr4whjOs4Q1zuMMe/jCIQwUs 4jMFBAA7SwCkBpkAAAAA --------------33993E715F73-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 08:43:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02917; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:11:25 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804201115_MC2-3A65-56E7 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"P1j0q2.0.Mj.ohsEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17724 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Preliminary Assessment of the "Kinetic Furnace" of Kinetic Systems, Inc. -- An Apparent Massive Excess Energy-Producing Technology Employing Unknown Non-Chemical Reactions of Water in Contact with Metals by Eugene Mallove and Jed Rothwell Cold Fusion Technology, Inc., P.O. Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302-2816 http://www.infinite-energy.com FOR RELEASE Monday, April 20, 1998, Vancouver, BC at The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion (ICCF-7). This version formatted for ASCII e-mail. Introduction Since the announcement by Fleischmann and Pons of anomalous nuclear-scale excess energy in heavy water/palladium and platinum electrochemical cells in 1989, a number of other excess-energy phenomena have emerged. Among them are confirmed reports of excess energy in ordinary-water electrochemical cells, often with a variety of high surface area cathode materials. Excess energy-from-water claims have also included reports of activation of reactions by both ultrasonic transducers and rotary cavitation generators. Linked with all the above have been reports of nuclear reaction products formed at low energy. This indicates that the origin of the excess energy may lie within a previously unidentified category of nuclear reactions. [1] The Kinetic Furnace is an energy-from-water machine invented and patented by Eugene Perkins and Ralph E. Pope of Kinetic Systems, Inc. of Cumming, Georgia (USA). It has been under development since the early 1980s, predating the Fleischmann-Pons announcement by many years. It produces robust, kilowatt level excess heat. It has been confirmed in independent testing by at least two industrial corporations and at least three independent engineering firms that specialize in measuring the performance of heating and air-conditioning systems. We recently confirmed the excess heat in a preliminary on-site test. We plan to do additional tests with much more sophisticated instrumentation in the near future. This is a preliminary report to assess the excess energy produced by the Kinetic Furnace and the potential of this technology for new scientific investigations. History and Patents The Kinetic Furnace creates heat by generating turbulence and friction within fluid-filled chambers in which a rotor spins in close proximity to stationary surfaces. This generates intense ultrasound. There are a few dozen United States patents on similar machines. [2] However, the development of the Kinetic Furnace, first by Eugene Perkins and during 15 years of collaboration with Ralph Pope, has led to the most successful embodiment of such heaters to date. Because the Perkins-Pope device generates kilowatt levels of excess heat, it may turn out to be an excellent test bed for determining the origin of the excess-energy reactions at the subatomic level. The magnitude of the energy release is so immense and sustained that the device can potentially produce large quantities of reaction products for analysis. The first U.S. Patent, #4,424,797 for "Heating Device" was awarded to Eugene Perkins, January 10, 1984 (filed October 13, 1981). The patent abstract states: A heater for heating a liquid including a housing defining a closed elongated heating chamber therein with a cylindrical chamber surface, a rotor body rotatably journalled in the heating chamber with a cylindrical peripheral surface thereon concentrically of the chamber surface so as to define an annular space between the chamber surface and the peripheral surface on the rotor body, drive means for effecting relative rotation between rotor body and the housing, and pump means for circulating the liquid through the annular space so that the rotation of the rotor body heats the liquid passing through the annular space. A second generation patent by Perkins, US Patent #4,483,277 "Superheated Liquid Heating System" was granted November 20, 1984 (filed June 2, 1983). A third iteration of the invention appeared in U.S. Patent #4,501,231 by Perkins (filed June 2, 1983), "Heating System with Liquid Pre-Heating." The present embodiment of the device appears in U.S. Patent #5,341,768 (filed Sept. 21, 1993) by Ralph E. Pope of Cumming, Georgia, "Apparatus for Frictionally Heating Liquid." This version of the invention has a rotary pumping element spun by an electric motor within a water-filled chamber (see Figures 1 through 6 of the patent, reproduced in the printed version of this document). Throughout the history of this development, excess energy has been confirmed by independent consulting engineers. This inspired the inventors during difficult times. Obviously, the application of conventionally understood physics prohibits the creation of excess energy in such a simple device. The electric input power would normally exceed the heat output of the device due to the inefficiency of the electric drive motor and, in the limit, the device would approach C.O.P. (Coefficient of Performance; output divided by input) = 1.0. With a normal electric water heater, power input is always slightly greater than the heat added to the water, because of unavoidable heat losses. The C.O.P. approaches 1.0, never reaching or exceeding it. With this device, however, a C.O.P. greater than 1.0 is routinely obtained. Extensive testing with water and air flow calorimetry has shown a profoundly significant excess-energy anomaly. Prior Testing Compared to most (not all) electrochemical cold fusion cells, the Perkins-Pope system is robust: it works consistently on demand. And it produces a much higher absolute excess power; kilowatts versus watts or tens of watts -- in a C.O.P. range from 1.2 to 7.0. Some cold fusion cells have a better input to output ratio, however. Indeed, some have operated for extended periods with no input, in "heat-after-death" reactions. The latest embodiment of the Perkins-Pope device usually operates at a C.O.P. of around 1.5. Excursions to 1.8 are not uncommon. Four kilowatts of electric input power drive a 6 HP-rated AC motor (3450 RPM). Based on previous performance tests, it is expected that the machine can be improved to produce a much larger C.O.P. reliably. The inventors understand which parameters must be improved to achieve this. For example, by testing for wear on the steel inserts, they determined that in rotors with 12 holes, often only one or two holes generate ultrasound. If all 12 holes could be "turned on" the rotor would probably produce much more excess energy. Research in fluid dynamics will be needed to address this problem. The dimensions of the Perkins-Pope unit in its present configuration sheet metal housing are: 67.3 cm W x 44.8 cm H x 113 cm L; it weighs about 90 kg. The authors tested one Kinetic Furnace on-site in Georgia and have purchased this unit for permanent testing and demonstration to all serious interested parties at its lab facility at the Bow Technologies Center, Bow, New Hampshire. We intend to post test results openly on the World Wide Web at frequent intervals and work with others to get to the bottom of the energy anomaly. Much work needs to be done. The inventors have agreed to collaborate with the present authors to make sure that C.O.P. > 1.0 is achieved routinely in this initially-purchased unit. Perkins and Pope have already empirically discovered parameters that make the system work and ones that lead to failure. Reliance Electric of Indiana has tested an earlier prototype of the machine at its facility and determined it was over-unity. [3] Operating units of the General Electric Corporation have found the device to be over-unity. Both of these companies have supplied Kinetic Systems, Inc. with free electric motors to continue their ground-breaking work. [4] These companies did not file formal reports, but other groups have and we will reproduce them in detail in Issue #19 of Infinite Energy (May 1998). [5] One of the best reports was by Air Techniques, Inc. of Marietta Georgia, which in the fall of 1983 determined after several days of testing that C.O.P.1s of 1.21, 1.54, 1.98, and 1.64 had been conservatively measured. This is a testing company that routinely deals with the evaluation of heating and ventilation systems, which is the type of analysis required on a device of this sort. Calorimetry is straightforward. The rotor drive motor consumes electricity and heats water in a closed recirculation loop. Part of this water-loop passes through a heat exchanger, which resembles an automobile radiator. An electric air blower motor pushes air across this radiator as well as across the entire rotor and electric motor heating assembly. The air enters a rectangular exit port duct with a 1.0 ft^2 cross section (12 inches x 12 inches). Essentially all the heat produced is transferred to the air. The output of thermal power is determined by measuring the mass flow of air exiting the device and the air temperature increase from the inlet (ambient ) value. The specific heat of air was taken from the Dwyer tables. We did not measure barometric pressure in these tests. We used the average value recommended in the Dwyer tables. [6] Dunn laboratories, Inc. of Atlanta Georgia measured a C.O.P. of 1.54 in testing carried out on December 6, 1982. Diversified Engineering Services of Dallas, Texas analyzed test results of August 26, 1983 obtained by Dunn laboratories, Inc.: 3.38 KW input, 9.96 KW output, for a C.O.P. of 2.95. It commented also on the tests of Cerny and Ivey Engineers, Inc. of July 11, 1983, finding a C.O.P. = 1.64. The Pittsburgh Testing Laboratory (Atlanta office) in August 1986 tested the system and found an average C.O.P. of about 3.1 with an input power of 4.6 kW. The above results are presented here to substantiate that a variety of independent testers have found the same general over-unity results. Raw data from these tests will be published and critiqued in a future issue of Infinite Energy. Testing in April 1998 The authors visited the Kinetic Systems, Inc. testing facility in Georgia on April 9, 1998. The day before our arrival, Pope reported that two of their units were operating, one at C.O.P. = 1.32 and the other at 1.38. We tested only one unit, for two and a half hours. We attached an Amprobe DM-II electric power data logger to the single-phase, 230 volt AC motor leads. Samples were recorded at 1 second intervals throughout the entire duration of the test. The average real electric input power, automatically corrected for the power factor was 4.27 kW. After an initial heat-up time of 8 minutes, operation of the cooling fan was initiated. (The input power collection system was active during this 8 minute start-up transient. The total input electrical energy recorded during the entire 2.72 hours of data collection was 11.6 kWH.) The temperature between ambient input air and output air dropped as expected from a Delta T of 22 deg F to 14.2 deg F within about six minutes. Thereafter the Delta T varied from a low of 13.4 deg F to a high of 15.4 deg F. In this preliminary test the Delta T was recorded manually in a lab notebook every three to five minutes. In future tests it will be recorded automatically on a computer. The average of 31 readings taken at irregular intervals over this period was 14.4 deg F with a standard deviation of 0.46 deg F. The air velocity in the exit duct was approximately 1125 feet/minute as measured by a new factory-calibrated electronic anemometer from Davis Instruments: Anemometer/Thermometer Data Logger (Model DTA4000). This confirmed the conventional nine-point average air velocity in the duct as measured by a Dwyer Durablock Manometer and probe. The average C.O.P. based on the temperature Delta T and average input power was 1.19. The peak was 1.27. However, the system was clearly not displaying its full heat generation capability. The side panel had been removed to expose the very hot rotor chamber and radiator (water egress temperature was 170 deg F as measured by a dial thermometer in the fluid) -- thus there were considerable convective and radiative losses. In future tests we will insulate the machine and its exhaust duct to prevent this and other losses. After the tests, Pope and Perkins determined that there was a small gap between the unit and the cardboard duct, caused by loose duct tape, so it is possible that a significant heat loss was occurring there also. During this test period voltage, current, temperature and air speed were measured and cross checked with redundant, independent instruments. Air speed, the most difficult parameter to quantify, was measured with two instruments based on different physical principles. It is highly unlikely that a combination of errors produced an artifactual C.O.P. greater than 1.0. It is, in fact, much more likely that the excess was seriously underestimated. Future Testing We will establish a permanently operating test bed machine. We may require more machines for factorial experiments. One of the first priorities will be to examine how the machine performs with heavy water. We will: * Begin by mixing a small amount of heavy water with ordinary water, and then increase the concentration in steps. * Test water from a variety of different sources. * Check the rotors for anomalous deposits of metals * Perform autoradiographs. * Monitor the water for gas build-up, elemental change, and tritium. SEM examination of the rotor surfaces will be useful. Pope stated that these machines have run continuously for 3 to 4 months at a C.O.P. of ~1.5. It is instructive to apply these numbers and speculate about possible low-energy nuclear reactions. The machine holds approximately 4.7 liters of water in the chamber and heat transfer loop, or ~263 moles. This includes 4.05 x 10^-2 moles of D2O, or 2.44 x 10^22 pairs of deuterons. If D-D fusion at the metal surface was the source of the excess energy, there would be 9.13 x 10^10 joules of energy available with the reaction path D + D => 4He + 23.8 MeV (thermalized). When the excess power is 1,000 watts thermal, the deuterium fuel would last 9.13 x 10^7 seconds, or 151 weeks. The Kinetic Furnace is known to operate for a very long time on a single charge of water. Other nuclear reactions involving hydrogen and rotor metal (mainly aluminum with Fe-alloy for orifice-surround strengthening inserts) might yield an even longer operating period. We emphasize however, that no investigations of the nuclear hypothesis have been performed yet. It is obvious that sustained 1,000 watt excess energy cannot possibly come from chemical reactions in the chamber. In point of fact, there is no accepted chemical reaction in the chamber (such as from standard water corrosion) that could account for even one minute of 1,000 watt excess power. Perkins and Pope found that the source of the water is important. Water from different sources has widely varying efficacy. The best water is from a well over 100 meters deep, extending below granite formations. Distilled water produces excess energy, but not as much. Atlanta city water does not produce any excess. These differences are probably due to trace amounts of gas or mineral contamination that either enhance or corrupt the reaction. If these performance differences can be confirmed, they will be an important clue about the nature of the reaction on the microphysical level. It is well known, for example, that the sonoluminescence phenomenon is connected with the gas content of water. Pope says he has tested fluids other than water in the device to see whether they generate excess energy. He found that various oils used in place of water do not produce excess energy. He tested mineral oil, automobile transmission fluid, and thermo-oil used in pumps (Shell and Exxon). Pure ethylene-glycol does not appear to produce excess energy, but mixtures of ethylene-glycol and water do work. Tests with other fluids and with water known to produce negative results constitute control runs. Pope has not calibrated with a joule heater. We plan to do this. We will install a joule heater in the equipment cabinet near the device, turn off the device, and run the joule heater and the air blower at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 kilowatt power levels. The temperature of the water in the chamber has reached as high as 600 deg F in some tests, although it usually remains below 200 deg F. The cause of these occassional sudden rapid rises in temperature is not known. Additional evidence of high heat is seen in the fact that the aluminum rotors sometimes partially melt. The rotors are generally made of aluminum, with steel inserts that harden the walls of the peripheral holes. When steel inserts were not used, the aluminum was severely damaged by melting after about 10 minutes of operation. Deposits of copper-colored material have plated onto the aluminum after prolonged use. It is not clear whether these deposits are contaminants from the heat exchanger, steel, aluminum, or the water itself. An EDS (energy dispersive spectroscopy) analysis of the deposit was performed and the following element composition was found: Smooth Area of Rotor Nodule Area of Rotor Al 74.08% 73.19% Cl 0.93 0.74 K 0.15 0.55 Ca 1.03 2.68 Fe 14.52 13.14 Cu 0.95 0.58 Zn 7.82 7.76 A subsurface sample of the aluminum was tested, and only low levels of contamination were found. This analysis was performed by a university chemist who wondered how the material was deposited on the rotor. The material looks as if it were electroplated to the aluminum surface, but there are no known electric currents in the water to drive electrolysis. The analysis of changes in materials before and after the operation of this machine will require considerable effort. Conclusion The Perkins-Pope Kinetic-Furnace produces massive excess energy, as shown by extensive testing over twenty years. It shows great promise as a research tool for investigating the class of reactions that produce nuclear-scale excess energy in more traditional cold fusion cells. The reactions responsible for the excess energy in the Perkins-Pope device may be novel nuclear reactions or the tapping of energy reservoirs that others have proposed (e.g., new hydrogen energy states or zero point energy). There is no possibility that this device can be explained by chemical energy or "storage energy." The Perkins-Pope device is also a near term excess energy technology that will have application in water and air heating, and perhaps in self-standing electric power production and rotary mechanical power production. References and Notes 1. Our web page, http://www.infinite-energy.com, includes a list of over 90 references to experimental results in cold fusion 2. Other U.S. Patents for other "frictional heating" devices: 1,758,207 1930 Walker 2,316,522 1943 Loeffler 2,683,448 1954 Smith 2,991,764 1961 French 3,333,771 1967 Graham 3,402,702 1968 Love 3,508,402 1970 Gray 3,690,302 1972 Reynolds 3,720,372 1973 Jacobs 3,791,349 1974 Schaeffer 3,813,036 1974 Lutz 4,143,369 1979 Frenette 4,147,301 1979 Halma et al 4,153,199 1979 Ellmer 4,226,364 1980 Utsech 4,256,085 1981 Line 4,277,020 1981 Grenier 4,357,931 1982 Wolpert et al 4,372,254 1983 Hildebrandt 4,381,762 1983 Ernst 5,188,090 1993 Griggs 5,279,262 1994 Muehleck 5,419,306 1995 Huffman, Michael (see Infinite Energy Issue #1) 3. Chart recorder output provided by Ralph E. Pope 4. Citation by Ralph Pope and Eugene Perkins 5. Partial list of earlier test reports on the Perkins-Pope Kinetic Furnace: - "Test Report on the Perkins Furnace Evaluation (Test Dates September 28 and October 6, 1983)," Robert J. Synk, P.E., Air Techniques, Inc. - Dunn Laboratories, Inc., Dec. 14, 1982, and August 26, 1983 - Pittsburgh Testing Laboratory (Atlanta), Report on "Perkins Power Energy System," July 6, 1984, and August 5, 1986. - Automated Test Labs (Philadelphia), November 18, 1986 6. "Air Velocity Calculator," Dwyer Instruments, Inc., Michigan City, IN 46360 List of Figures in the Printed Version of this Document Schematic View of Perkins-Pope Kinetic Furnace Showing Air Flow Around Rotor Chamber, Electric Drive Motor, and Heat Transfer Loops. Diagram Courtesy Kinetic Systems, Inc. Figures 1 through 6 from U.S. Patent 5,341,768, "Apparatus for Frictionally Heating Liquid." Photo of Prototype Kinetic Furnace -- E. Mallove From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 09:19:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01647; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:12:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:12:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980420121457.00ba6620 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:14:57 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Cc: olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu, vortex-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VF7ZE1.0.fP.wFtEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17725 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I originally said: >> a ball flying at 90% of the speed of light. The ZPE hitting the front of >> the ball is blue shifted and the ZPE on the back is red shifted relative to >> the ball. This causes the ball to slow down. For the ZPE to create no >> drag, the spectrum of the ZPE would have to be such as to require infinite >> energy.)>> At 04:57 PM 4/18/98 EDT, Puthoff wrote: >Not true. Whereas the concept of drag from movement through a random radation >field is correct for all other cases, it is not the case for the ZPE, only >because of the cubic freq distribution. Fort a cubic freq distribution, as >one component in the front blusehifts up, another blueshifts up to take its >place and the distribution is left unchanged; same for the red shift behind. >More specifically, the drag force goes as u - (du/dw)(w/3), where u is energy >density per unit freq interval, and which vanishes for a cubic (and cubic >only) freq distribution. The bottom line is that the ZPE is Lorentz >invariant, and motion thru it at constant velocity is undetectable by drag >force or any other means. Hal and I are actually agreeing here, for the most part. However, Hal assumes cubic distribution for the ZPE at all frequencies, and I--and many others--have trouble swallowing the infinite ZPE energy required by this assumption. If the ZPE is only cubic up to some cutoff, then at high relativistic speeds, the drag will emerge. Experiments can be done, but they require an object moving through "empty" space. The best available data comes from some special satellites placed in high orbits around the earth. But this data doesn't give a very high cutoff for invariance. Of course, the universe is not stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine. So there may be some way to reconcile Lorenz invariance that does not require infinite energy. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 09:28:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04368; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:23:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:23:39 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980420122554.00bc7920 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:25:54 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Off topic] Doom and Gloom & investment advice Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980418120602.006d4fd0 postoffice.ptd.net> <3.0.1.32.19980417202821.00bbfc70 spectre.mitre.org> <3.0.1.32.19980417124256.00b91dc0 spectre.mitre.org> <19980417023839.AAA12052 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"o_Fbb.0.841.9QtEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17726 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:32 PM 4/18/98 -1000, Rick Monteverde wrote: >Sorry to hear it, I know someone else who did the same thing. I was curious >about stocks though, maybe it's different. But risk is risk - if high >enough, you will probably lose. That's why I *do* try something different! Risk is risk, and if you want to make (fast) money in the market you have to assume that risk for others. But the way to make it pay is to be there with the fundamental knowledge about the stock/bond/option whatever before other people. But as I said, if you do this, you get no time off, and forget eating lunch out. You work every day the market is open from nine to five EST, and sometimes later. (In Hawaii, of course, those times shift. If you are a morning person, you put in a day's work, then hit the beach.) For those unwilling to do this, it is also easy to make money in the market, but not nearly as fast. Buy an index fund, a set amount every month, and you can and will retire a millionaire. (For the past few years, my (retirement) investment income has considerably outpaced my salary. Of course, this has been a long bull market, and I am currently accepting lower return by keeping some money in short term bonds.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 10:40:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26521; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:33:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <008d01bd6c81$9aa92800$418cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:26:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Tr4pI1.0.HS6.SRuEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17727 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: Not a great surprise here, but very interesting. As posted before, Rumford (Phil.Trans,1798) used a blunt borer in a cannon and "boiled" 26.5 pounds of water in 2.5 hours in an attempt to figure out what heat was. In the late 18th century the cannon/ball weight was better than 120 lb/lb. A 12 pounder (about 4.3 inches diameter) was quite common and would weigh in at about 1,500 pounds. With the cannon vertical "mouth-up" and water added as it was consumed: Heat to cannon (212 - 68)* 1500*0.12 = 25,920 Btu. Water to boil only (212 - 68)*26.5 = 3,816 btu Water to boil off (1124*26.5)= 29,786 btu Boil only Horsepower-hours = 4.67 Boil-off Horsepower-hours = 8.75 Plus heat into the "blunt borer" and convection heat losses. For his effort, Rumford ended up with 4,145 grains (0.592 lbs)of "metallic powder". Interestingly in the 1790s you would be hard put to find a power source, wind, water, horses, or steam, that could develop over a couple of Horsepower, sustainable for 2.5 hours. Rumford was probably getting a "C.O.P" of at least 1.6! :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 11:02:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00397; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:49:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:49:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804201115_MC2-3A65-56E7 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 07:47:50 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"l8JvP1.0.26.3huEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17728 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed - > The Kinetic Furnace is an > energy-from-water machine invented and > patented by Eugene Perkins and Ralph E. Pope > of Kinetic Systems, Inc. of Cumming, Georgia > (USA). It has been under development since > the early 1980s, predating the > Fleischmann-Pons announcement by many > years. It produces robust, kilowatt level > excess heat. Zounds! That good-water/bad-water angle is _really_ intriguing. Obviously the 'fuel' is there. Find out what it is, concentrate it, and the world changes. Hmm...dissolved gasses from under granite. Radon? Helium? ??? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 11:31:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07712; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00b301bd6c89$10e67520$418cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:20:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ENDEs.0.Nu1.FDvEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17729 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 11:53 AM Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) >Jed - > > > The Kinetic Furnace is an > > energy-from-water machine invented and > > patented by Eugene Perkins and Ralph E. Pope > > of Kinetic Systems, Inc. of Cumming, Georgia > > (USA). It has been under development since > > the early 1980s, predating the > > Fleischmann-Pons announcement by many > > years. It produces robust, kilowatt level > > excess heat. > >Zounds! > >That good-water/bad-water angle is _really_ intriguing. Obviously the >'fuel' is there. Find out what it is, concentrate it, and the world >changes. Consult: Boy Scout Handbook, "Making Fire by rubbing two sticks together". Wet-Hydrogenous materials. Hickory works good, Caution, contains Potassium "salts" and some Deuterium. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Hmm...dissolved gasses from under granite. Radon? Helium? ??? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 13:49:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10877 for billb eskimo.com; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:48:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:48:18 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:48:18 -0700 X-Envelope-From: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 13:48:16 1998 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Old-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:49:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) CC: eachus mitre.org, Puthoff@aol.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980420121457.00ba6620 spectre.mitre.org> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <8F4F0F44B5 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"djrJ12.0.Nf2.EIxEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17730 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com X-Diagnostic: /usr/lib/sendmail vortex-l-dist eskimo.com failed X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem X-Envelope-To: vortex-l Status: O X-Status: > Hal and I are actually agreeing here, for the most part. However, Hal > assumes cubic distribution for the ZPE at all frequencies, and I--and many > others--have trouble swallowing the infinite ZPE energy required by this > assumption. If the ZPE is only cubic up to some cutoff, then at high > relativistic speeds, the drag will emerge. Experiments can be done, but > > Robert I. Eachus If this drag did, in fact, show up at very high velocity, wouldn't it put a stop to cosmic rays that are observed smashing into the upper atmosphere with energy on the order of Joules? One would think that given the cosmological distances involved, such a drag would have plenty of time (in our reference frame anyway :) ) to slow down such a speeding particle. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 14:56:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14670; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:51:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:51:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980420175329.00bc9100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:53:29 -0400 To: "Jay Olson" From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, eachus@mitre.org, Puthoff@aol.com In-Reply-To: <8F4F0F44B5 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> References: <3.0.1.32.19980420121457.00ba6620 spectre.mitre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"D-5W73.0.5b3.PDyEr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17731 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 01:49 PM 4/20/98 -0800, Jay Olson wrote: >If this drag did, in fact, show up at very high velocity, wouldn't it >put a stop to cosmic rays that are observed smashing into the upper >atmosphere with energy on the order of Joules? One would think that >given the cosmological distances involved, such a drag would have >plenty of time (in our reference frame anyway :) ) to slow down such >a speeding particle. Tell me where the cosmic rays come from and how they are accellerated to such high velocities, how much they are slowed in transit, deflected by stellar and galactic magnetic fields, etc. and I can answer your question. I'm not being facetious. Some theories have cosmic rays created "locally" others by active galactic cores. There is even a theory which says that the cosmic rays are intergalactic cold dark matter swept to high speeds by excatly such drag. Myself, I prefer to belive that the isotopes observed argue for origins in the outer layers blown off supernovas, accelerated, by the pulsar effect. (the remnant magnetic field of the original star is frozen in the neutronium core, and by conservation of angular momentum, rotates very rapidly, creating an accelerator that can push ionized nucleii to very close to light speeds.) If that is true, what you have to explain is how they get slowed down. The favorite candidate is clouds of ionized gas surrounding the supernova. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 17:00:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04775; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:50:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: Kooistra's motor Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:53:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6cb7$815b2110$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"EBZj1.0.WA1.lyzEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17733 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Monday, April 20, 1998 6:25 PM Horace wrote: >So far it strikes me that the term "motor" is very loosely applied. > >It would be nice to hear from George Holz and Jeff Kooistra on this. Hi Horace, I've been busy on another project and have not had time to finish my next version of the "Marinov motor". So far all I have is a better ball bearing base made by removing the magnet from a small computer CPU cooling fan. The experiments so far have not provided a clear basis for discounting the Lorentz force mechanism. I will try to minimize the Lorentz force by magnetic shielding of the ring leads. Even if I cannot eliminate the Lorentz force, I should be able to make it much smaller and compare it to the longitudinal force magnitude. The last model I built confined the torus (not really a torus anymore but two pairs of magnets plus ferrite) fields to about +- 15 degrees of rotation. The resulting torque fell off much more rapidly with rotation but this is still consistent with a Lorentz force explanation. - Rick has been actively corresponding with Jeff Kooistra and has provided more recent information than I have available. I don't see that there is anything I can add to his recent posts. Thanks for helping out, Rick. - IMO the longitudinal force version provided by Phipps is clearly correct and even required by standard relativistic electromagnetics and for energy conservation reasons. Although the Marinov motor will probably never be a practical device, other devices based on an understanding of the longitudinal force may have significant utility. I think that the key to understanding the longitudinal force is to see it as the gradient of a curl. I've become much better at visualizing the magnetic vector potential after much thought and practice. - Jeff's motor works, the longitudinal force is real and the implications are still open for productive invention - don't stop thinking about the longitudinal force and concentrate on Phipps' version, not the Marinov version. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 17:07:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04255; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:48:40 -0700 (PDT) From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:41:37 GMT Message-ID: <353bd79e.2168260 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <3.0.1.32.19980420121457.00ba6620 spectre.mitre.org> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980420121457.00ba6620 spectre.mitre.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LA4yT2.0.H21.KxzEr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17732 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:14:57 -0400, "Robert I. Eachus" wrote: ... >Hal assumes cubic distribution for the ZPE at all frequencies, and I--and many >others--have trouble swallowing the infinite ZPE energy required by this >assumption. If the ZPE is only cubic up to some cutoff, then at high >relativistic speeds, the drag will emerge. Experiments can be done, but >they require an object moving through "empty" space. The best available >data comes from some special satellites placed in high orbits around the >earth. But this data doesn't give a very high cutoff for invariance. Can you please tell me what the experimental determined cutoff limit is at present? This is an extremely interesting thing to me because ... >From the harmonics theory (see my web pages at URL below for all the gory details) I arrive at an energy distribution for the universe which might be similar to the ZPE. It would actually be composed of discrete frequencies which are muliples of the fundamental universal oscillation frequency. For many practical purposes this looks like a continuous spectrum that would be a power function of frequency up to a certain point at which it would change shape (perhaps like black body radiation does) to give a limit. The spectrum is not continuous however and the detailed predictions of the theory are very specific about the discrete frequencies which have more energy. At the EXTREMELY low frequency end of the spectrum (where it is much easier to do the calculations) the predicted frequencies give a series of galactic redshift quanta (or periodicities) which match those found by W G Tifft at the p~=10^-18 level. See http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-ha-nm.gif for the frequency spread and http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-ha-rs.gif for the implied redshift periodicities. The theory has about a dozen such successful predictions, including a new particle before its discovery and it is able to predict from its single simple axiom with no arbitrary constants all the major levels of structure in the universe - universe, galaxies, stars, planets, moons ... atoms and nucleons. The predicted scale of atoms and nucleons are within a few percent of the observed ones. Normally I assume that the universe began from a single wave that develops harmonics and calculate the pattern of energy that ensues. However it is perhaps equally valid to assume noise and to derive the resulting pattern - clearly a more difficult task, and one which I have not attempted. In the former case there should be some tailing off of energy at some frequency while in the latter there need not be but infinite energy would be required. If the energy is finite then I expect that the limit varies with the location in the universe, being at lower frequencies between the galaxies and at higher frequencies within supernova. That is because the energy transfer to higher frequencies is the result of non-linearities which are much larger where the energy density is higher. Anyway, in this case I expect the cutoff locally to be not far beyond the nucleon Compton frequency scale - perhaps this possibility has already been disproved. -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 17:36:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13048; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:25:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199804210025.RAA07418 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Resent-Message-ID: <"9Mtgz.0.TB3.PV-Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17734 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Of course, the universe is not stranger than we imagine, it is stranger >than we can imagine. So there may be some way to reconcile Lorenz >invariance that does not require infinite energy. > > Robert I. Eachus I would say that the pre-occupation with needing to get rid of "infinities" is unnecessary. I think that if you formulate a theory that does not predict infinity, that such a theory is incorrect, rather than the normal, other, way around. The reason is if you think in terms of "particles" and then work with a spacetime metric, you are led to assume that you have forces of attraction interacting between particles, as well as forces of repulsion. These are well accepted I know. If you turn the logic upside down, you see a different sort of universe. An aether mechanical one. In such a universe, solitonic resonances in a very real sense must continuously repulse the balance of the universe. In fact, fusion reactions must push outward and force the expansion of the universe due to the emission of aether from the intense solitonic interior, out into the saturated vapor condition of what we call, empty space. Thus, just as when boiling water into a chamber at saturation conditions, you have to force the entire universe to expand as you "boil" away aether in the fusion process inside of stars. Therefore, all of the forces we know of result from interactions with the pressure supporting the entire universe. And that value, though not truly infinity, is close enough to infinity that our experiments will not discern the difference. Ergo, you can treat spacetime as a Planck scale resonance with a wavelength of E-35 meters, and a frequency of ~E45 Hz. And when you determine the energy of that wavelength you will find it to be extremely high, though not infinity. That is the energy density of waves in our universe. But if you dig yet deeper, you will realize that if you have an organized structure of waves at the Planck scale, then you must have waves yet shorter than that so that their random motions give rise to that complexification and that order. Just as the wavelength of motions of water molecules in the ocean is really tiny, and gives rise to macroscopic waves both of sound (compression) and of surf (transverse). That yet shorter wave topology gives you insight into the energy density of the "Omniverse", of which our "Universe" is a localized resonance, IMO. In any case, when you think in terms of particles, you bestow to them magical properties. When you think in terms of resonances permeating the universe where particles are just localized solitonic waveforms, then you are stuck dealing with the intensity of the pressure of the entire universe. And in that, you get really large numbers, and ergo infinity pops up all over the place. Later, Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 18:25:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26843; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:20:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:20:39 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804210025.RAA07418 Au.oro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:19:41 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Resent-Message-ID: <"0a2XX2.0.KZ6.bH_Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17735 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ross - > Just as the wavelength of motions of water > molecules in the ocean is really tiny, and > gives rise to macroscopic waves both of sound > (compression) and of surf (transverse). Huh? Looks like you're saying that Brownian motion causes surf. Surely you can't mean this. Surf correlates perfectly to distant storms (with the exception of certain extremely rare rogue soliton waves - a single 25+ footer on a 4' to 6' day is something you don't easily forget). The motion of surface water in the storm causing the surf is not tiny - it's a bulk process. Wind hammers the surface and kicks up waves. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 01:41:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00570; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:39:16 GMT Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:39:16 GMT From: Puthoff Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:38:00 EDT To: eachus mitre.org, vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jj-zk2.0.m8.1Z_Er" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17736 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 4/20/98 10:18:13 AM, eachus mitre.org wrote: <> True, in principle. However, the cutoff favored by Gen Rel types is the Planck freq at 10^44 Hz, so it's unlikely even with high energy physics experiments we'll see these frequencies involved. Hal Puthoff From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 18:59:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00124; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:52:59 +0000 Message-ID: <19980421015258.AAA5969 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"yr9Vw.0.s1.8o_Er" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17737 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:47 AM 4/20/98 -1000, you wrote: >Jed - > > > The Kinetic Furnace is an > > energy-from-water machine invented and > > patented by Eugene Perkins and Ralph E. Pope > > of Kinetic Systems, Inc. of Cumming, Georgia > > (USA). It has been under development since > > the early 1980s, predating the > > Fleischmann-Pons announcement by many > > years. It produces robust, kilowatt level > > excess heat. > >Zounds! > >That good-water/bad-water angle is _really_ intriguing. Obviously the >'fuel' is there. Find out what it is, concentrate it, and the world >changes. > >Hmm...dissolved gasses from under granite. Radon? Helium? ??? > >- Rick Monteverde >Honolulu, HI > The Electrochemical Activation (ECA) article on p. 35 of IE 18 is another source of water to try in the Kinetic Furnace. Deep water may be activated by quartz piezo electrical activity. It would be serendpidity at its finest if these two anomalies were so related! Did Pope and Perkins ever try Ni implants on the rotor? Even if it has no special catalytic properties, it has the physical properties of high melting point and is hard. Seems like very promising stuff. Reminds me of a comment by Ron Kovac to the effect that it's easy to find anomalies, but hard to get the advertising. Can it be scaled down to small units for testing by amateur scientists? Is credibility a monopolized social currency? Monsanto sits on ECA process while supporting the fantastic scientific claims made for it, without trying to market it. Pope and Perkins have had extensive testing of their device for years by very credible labs with robust and large OU evident, but no mass credibility or even curiosity follows. Are FAT, DUMB & HAPPY the New Age Virtues? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 20:11:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15465; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:06:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980421015258.AAA5969 Default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:03:25 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"Ppnp_.0.Tn3.Pq0Fr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17738 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed - > Are FAT, DUMB & HAPPY the New Age Virtues? "We"* voted for Clinton, didn't we? :( > Reminds me of a comment by Ron Kovac to the > effect that it's easy to find anomalies, but > hard to get the advertising. By the way, thanks to Jed for posting this report. I think Vortex needs more of this kind of work being discussed. If it really is easy to find so many anomalies, I wish we were doing more here regarding confirming them and spreading the word about them. Sometimes what discussion there is here lately seems to lean towards either a pie-in-the-sky theoretical or speculative nature, or skepticism that might be just a tad too 'healthy' for open and progressive discussion. There are members of this list doing cool things who post little or nothing about them, and many others who won't even join because the discussions here are sometimes perceived to thrash too much along the usual polarities: hardened skeptic vs. wild-eyed true believer. Have we become SPF Lite? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI *not me, but I would have had the only alternative been someone named "Pat"... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 22:03:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07315; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:01:22 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <884eab5c.353c2795 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:58:58 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"j4PKK1.0.Do1.WW2Fr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17739 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I ran my first argon fill calibration run this evening. Purged with argon and then pumped to best vacuum with the arc on. Temperature stabilized in 8 minutes at 110 C. I then admitted argon gas to an indicated vacuum of 635.0 torr ( 0 torr=1 atm 3000 feet msl). The temperature fell to 107.5 C for 1 minute and then rose to 120.5 C steady state for the next 25 minutes (+- .3 C). I shut down the arc at 25 minutes and recorded the cool down until the 40 minute time line. Now I know how hot this sucker gets with: (1) Arc in vacuum. (2) Arc in vacuum with argon purge. (3) Arc in a known fill of argon. I am using lotus 123 to record the time/temperature data (I write data in my lab notes and then enter it into lotus). Lotus has a method for generating a chart from the data but I find it very difficult to use. Does anyone know of a simple, cheap, user friendly program that will take raw data and generate a simple x-y line chart? Tank of H2 is now on site...but not the needed regulator. This week for sure sez the gas passer. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 22:41:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21033; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:38:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:38:55 -0700 Message-ID: <353C32FB.64AF loc1.tandem.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:47:39 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode (graphing SW) References: <884eab5c.353c2795 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mhzkp3.0.Z85.k33Fr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17740 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > Does anyone know of a simple, cheap, user friendly program that will take > raw data and generate a simple x-y line chart? > Vince -- ClarisWorks has a very straightforward graphing capability. Just enter the two or more columns of numbers on the spreadsheet, pull down a menu, and you have your graph. It works on PCs and Macs, and can import data in several formats. I like it better than Excel unless you are doing something fancy like 3-D graphs. Price is very reasonable ($50-$90) and you get lots of other goodies along with it. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 20 23:43:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29652; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:41:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:41:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:41:30 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804210641.XAA24473 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"opIwq1.0.EF7.V-3Fr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17741 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Ed Wrote >Are FAT, DUMB & HAPPY the New Age Virtues? Hi Ed, Most of the "New Agers" that I've met are quite slim, however, you might be able to apply this to about 60% of the general American population. I heard a rumour that the Olympic Committee is being pressured by the Yanks to recognize a new sport called "Waddling From the Parking Lot to the Group Therapy Session". The contestants have to perform the above task while screaming "MORE PROZAC!". There's still room onboard the Polar Bear if you care to get away from the cars, parking lots, and drug crazed waddlers. -Knuke From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 01:38:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09420; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:37:30 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <884eab5c.353c2795 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:36:56 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"ggKRN.0.1J2.9h5Fr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17742 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince - > Does anyone know of a simple, cheap, user > friendly program that will take raw data and > generate a simple x-y line chart? I use Excel for this. It's pretty easy, I used it for the temperature/voltage data I logged for the capacitor experiments I did. Not too many data points, but if it's less than a few thousand it shouldn't be too hard. In other words, I'm offering to chart your data if nothing better comes up. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 02:45:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01500; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <003701bd6d09$1e4ae540$438cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Off Topic, Geography Question Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:36:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"RN2ow2.0.MN.ge6Fr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17743 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Where in the World is Viagra Falls? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 03:31:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA20406; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:30:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:30:20 -0700 Posted-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:25:33 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <353C74C4.6B546D99 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:28:20 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology (eprint:physics/9804020) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"D7rPV1.0.h-4.xK7Fr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17744 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: physics/9804020 From: Subhash Kak Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:38:30 GMT (10kb) The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology Authors: Subhash Kak (Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge) Comments: 12 pages Report-no: ECE 98-2 Subj-class: History of Physics; Physics and Society; Popular Physics We survey early Indian ideas on the speed of light and the size of the universe. A context is provided for Sayana's statement (14th century)that the speed is 2,202 yojanas per half nimesha (186,000 miles per second!). It is shown how this statement may have emerged from early Puranic notions regarding the size of the universe. Although this value can only be considered to be an amazing coincidence, the Puranic cosmology at the basis of this assertion illuminates many ancient ideas of space and time. Sound very interesting. (Goto xxx.lanl.gov) hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 05:52:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA00992; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:48:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:48:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:41:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex Subject: Re: The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology (eprint:physics/9804020) In-Reply-To: <353C74C4.6B546D99 verisoft.com.tr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"2X3KR3.0.QF.8M9Fr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17745 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I would have to not agree this is simply coincidence. I do not have a point by point proof, but do not think it is a fluke. On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Hamdi Ucar wrote: > physics/9804020 > > From: Subhash Kak > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:38:30 GMT (10kb) > > The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology > > Authors: Subhash Kak (Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge) > Comments: 12 pages > Report-no: ECE 98-2 > Subj-class: History of Physics; Physics and Society; Popular Physics > > We survey early Indian ideas on the speed of light and the > size of the universe. A context is provided for Sayana's > statement (14th century)that the speed is 2,202 yojanas per > half nimesha (186,000 miles per second!). It is shown how > this statement may have emerged from early Puranic notions > regarding the size of the universe. Although this value can only > be considered to be an amazing coincidence, the Puranic > cosmology at the basis of this assertion illuminates many > ancient ideas of space and time. > > > Sound very interesting. (Goto xxx.lanl.gov) > > hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 06:44:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19226; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <353CA0C5.46E8F4A6 css.mot.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:36:05 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Discussion Group - Vortex Subject: Satellite Shows Antarctic Ice Shelf Breaking Up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3k8Bh.0.Ji4.r4AFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17746 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -- John E. Steck Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 08:05:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02144; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: <42d72d0f.353cb2c4 aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:52:51 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: testing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"gWAbr.0.NX.LDBFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17748 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: device, however, a C.O.P. greater than 1.0 is routinely obtained. Extensive testing with water and air flow calorimetry has shown a profoundly significant excess-energy anomaly. ....................................................... I'll believe the water flow calorimetry but not the air flow. Most air flows exhibit a high degree of turbulence within a very non-linear velocity cross section. Dumping the energy through a water water heat exchanger and then measuring the COP is the way to go. ............................................................................ Frank Z From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 08:06:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02099; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804201115_MC2-3A65-56E7 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:53:08 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"ch-Ec2.0.jW.ADBFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17747 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Congratulations to Eugene Mallove and Jed Rothwell for finding and testing an OU device that actually seems to work. I don't see any holes in the measurements at this time. The patents are at: http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4424797 and : http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4483277 Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 08:28:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26677; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:19:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:19:25 -0700 X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:19:14 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"uvFZU3.0.kW6.yZBFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17749 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A complete list of patents are at: http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4424797 http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4483277 http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4501231 http://www.patents.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/5341768 The last one seems the most interesting. If it works it would seen to do so by the violation of conservation of energy. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 08:35:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08770; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980421113214.00bda690 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:32:14 -0400 To: Puthoff From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Cc: eachus mitre.org, vortex-l@eskimo.com, olso3562@novell.uidaho.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"ulT5H1.0.u82.LlBFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17750 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:38 PM 4/20/98 EDT, Puthoff wrote: >True, in principle. However, the cutoff favored by Gen Rel types is the >Planck freq at 10^44 Hz, so it's unlikely even with high energy physics >experiments we'll see these frequencies involved. No disagreement. However, the spinning HiTC superconductor with inclined planes seems like an elegant way to potentially measure even a Planck frequency cutoff. You would be, in effect, testing not for a cubic spectrum, but for any non-anisotropy in the ZPE. Of course, the sensitivity at high frequencies would be limited by the atomic dimensions to about 100 nm ~= 3*10^15 Hz. Nowhere near Planck frequencies, but this is really a different experiment. In other words, calculating reaction cross sections involves the probability of a virtual pair at the right energy occuring, but not the direction it is moving. Most measurements of the ZPE effectively measure intensity, but not direction. (Note that the other sensitivity of the experiment would be to the drift of the earth relative to the local universal background. I would expect this to be high enough for some anisotropy detection, given the cosmic background data, but not high enough to add additional sensitivity.) Hmmm. Maybe a better experiment. Assume I have a beam of 200 MeV photons. The beam will interact with the ZPE through virtual pair production and annihilation. If there is any anisotropy, then the beam divergence will be different when the beam is pointed in different directions. Doable? Maybe. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 08:36:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09141; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:26:31 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <353CBB4E.9C0062EC verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:29:18 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: [Fwd: The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology (eprint:physics/9804020)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D635DBD611B9AC864F770EC7" Resent-Message-ID: <"L6Umg2.0.gE2.UmBFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17751 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D635DBD611B9AC864F770EC7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit see also physics/9804021 --------------D635DBD611B9AC864F770EC7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <353C74C4.6B546D99 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:28:20 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology (eprint:physics/9804020) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit physics/9804020 From: Subhash Kak Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:38:30 GMT (10kb) The Speed of Light and Puranic Cosmology Authors: Subhash Kak (Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge) Comments: 12 pages Report-no: ECE 98-2 Subj-class: History of Physics; Physics and Society; Popular Physics We survey early Indian ideas on the speed of light and the size of the universe. A context is provided for Sayana's statement (14th century)that the speed is 2,202 yojanas per half nimesha (186,000 miles per second!). It is shown how this statement may have emerged from early Puranic notions regarding the size of the universe. Although this value can only be considered to be an amazing coincidence, the Puranic cosmology at the basis of this assertion illuminates many ancient ideas of space and time. Sound very interesting. (Goto xxx.lanl.gov) hamdi ucar --------------D635DBD611B9AC864F770EC7-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 12:07:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23734; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BD6D18.7A910910 uzl.ucdavis.edu> From: Dan Quickert To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: STENGER'S MARINOV Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:27:32 -0700 Encoding: 20 TEXT, 38 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Resent-Message-ID: <"HhS36.0.Vo5.ApEFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17752 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank, >I'll hang on to the hardware and maybe I can get some high-energy >magnets to try in it the next time I'm in "R & D Electronics" in >Cleveland (OH). I have a bunch of NdFeB magnets left over from SMOTing... don't have the specs with me right now but they're about 1/4" x 1/4" x 2" and quite powerful. Poles are on the long faces like North ----------------- | | ----------------- South I could spare a few... if you could use them, how many might you need for your experiment? Dan Quickert begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B$2`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0! `(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0 36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`' $```$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'9O"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VT`4TU4 M4 !V;W)T97 M;$!E"UL0&5S:VEM;RYC;VTG`````@$+, $` M```9````4TU44#I63U)415 M3$!%4TM)34\N0T]-``````,``#D`````"P! M. $````"`?8/`0````0````````",#,!!( !`!8```!213H@4U1%3D=%4B=3 M($U!4DE.3U8`OP4!!8 #``X```#.!P0`%0`+`!L`( `"`#8!`2" `P`.```` MS <$`!4`"P`'`!T``@`?`0$)@ $`(0```#`' ``0```!8` M``!213H 4U1%3D=%4B=3($U!4DE.3U8````"`7$``0```!8````!O6U3)D'7 MHH6 V341T;=A`* DNA8W```>`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!```` M%P```&1E<75I8VME]M`P`'$(,!```> M`` 0`0```&4```!&4D%.2RQ)3$Q(04Y'3TY43U1(14A!4D1705)%04Y$34%9 M0D5)0T%.1T544T]-14A)1T M14Y%4D=934%'3D544U1/5%)924Y)5%1(14Y% M6%1424U%24U)3B)2)D1%3$5#5%)/``````(!"1 !````A0(``($"``"2! `` M3%I&=:.R:EG_``H!#P(5`J0#Y 7K`H,`4!,#5 (`8V *P'-E=.XR!@`&PP*# M, /&!Q,"@\8S`\4"`'!R<1(@$XCF- 1&%*,Q( A5![("@Q(U$P]F-@]Z:&5L MT0, 1&QG`H!]"H (S\4)V3L;+S(U-0* "H&##;$+8&YG,3 S%" 7"PH2\@P! M8P! ($9RV0!P:RP*A0J%/ M&%[(S# $4P&]T!9 %0$DG%QG1$< >," "("!T M;^\CD!FP(Q$+('<*P"/P`' D9" `P'EB(_!)(,IC`Y%G$ `@5\*AQ\/(5\B90# 9R:0=.,$(".B 4 ;P!Y'?)&(C1\&QI:V4@? M&%;$?EM5! MHTX:T6 *A2U"S@J%]GQ!I$18?$)?0VP*^T$._E,[$4)&"T84(C-,,H\6D/LE M00A ;"3 .+ D8S:P!]"S-X(&D"!Y"&!,Q741\'DCPFTL(Q Z`0.!*M!M_SFC M3E(FD F -K %L4Y1!`#T``0````4```!213H ``````,`#33]-P``W!QM ` end From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 15:07:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17464; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353D3A5A.38B5 bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:31:22 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex Subject: [Off Topic] Geography Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YTB6r3.0.iG4.4QHFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17753 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Where in the World is Viagra Falls? > > Regards, Frederick In Vew York, silly. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 16:16:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29200; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000601bd6d79$539fe4a0$288cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , "Vortex" Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Geography Question Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:00:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"zzQt7.0.087.lQIFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17754 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton To: Vortex Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 4:02 PM Subject: [Off Topic] Geography Question >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >> Where in the World is Viagra Falls? >> >> Regards, Frederick > >In Vew York, silly. Thanks much Terry! It was a very impotent question. :-) FJS > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 17:50:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18708; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:39:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199804220039.RAA20035 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Re: Re: Re: Anyone work with Superconductors? (no ZPE drag) Resent-Message-ID: <"wROVl2.0.Ba4.MpJFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17755 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >At 09:38 PM 4/20/98 EDT, Puthoff wrote: >>True, in principle. However, the cutoff favored by Gen Rel types is the >>Planck freq at 10^44 Hz, so it's unlikely even with high energy physics >>experiments we'll see these frequencies involved. > > No disagreement. However, the spinning HiTC superconductor with >inclined planes seems like an elegant way to potentially measure even a >Planck frequency cutoff. You would be, in effect, testing not for a cubic >spectrum, but for any non-anisotropy in the ZPE. Of course, the >sensitivity at high frequencies would be limited by the atomic dimensions >to about 100 nm ~= 3*10^15 Hz. Nowhere near Planck frequencies, but this >is really a different experiment. Robert I. Eachus This is close, but you are still not getting the point of what I am trying to express. I know this is hard in words rather than images, which is why I am writing the book. You are focusing on what you call a "particle" ie nuclear dimensions and wavelengths. But you are forgeting that what you call a "field", permeates all of the space around that particle. We don't think of fields as being wave structures, but that is what I am saying they are. We don't think spacetime is a wave structure but that is what I am saying it is. And, the frequency of both spacetime, and of fields, is the same, at the Planck scale of E45 Hz as Hal says. Thus, we DO have access to Planck scale waves! "Spacetime" is the power weighted sum of incident wave energy at any given region of the universe. So we must sum the energy from the universe, and from nearby particles. The power of the universe is of course huge by comparison, but the particles, aka solitons, are nearby and thus the intensity of the "field" waves begins to dominate over the intensity of "spacetime" waves as you head into the interior of a particle. I think that the intensity becomes about equal as you head into the interior of an atom and approach the nuclear region. Spacetime in that region becomes highly curved. But spacetime is already being altered appreciably at the atomic scale. And the path that a given nucleus will follow becomes "Uncertain" due to this spacetime turbulence, and not due to some magical property of the particle itself. The trick that the design I told you about attempts to exploit comes from my studying the onset of turbulence in fluids in a rotating shaft and journal. Turbulence is initiated at specific rotational rates, and it has a step wise, but somewhat chaotic, way of going from one regime of turbulence to another. The point is, "Why did the fluid all of a sudden jump from a laminar mode with all of the atoms neatly shearing past one another and instead it switches into a chaotic mode of turbulence?". If you think about how a spacetime topology of waves must behave in a medium that is rotating, you realize that one component of the spacetime wave energy, coming from the universe, is not rotating. While the other component, coming from the rotating matter, is rotating. Therefore, the sum of the two leads to a spacetime that is also slightly rotating, or a better term might be, "precessing". There isn't really a "rotation" of spacetime. It is more like a torque twisting it up. We already know that this is predicted by GR. Here is where things get interesting. If you can cause spacetime to twist by about one Planck scale unit, E-35 meters, in the nodal field of the rotating HTSC, then the solitons, when you get all the way into their interior, are going to sort of surf on that spacetime dislocation. This is the same spacetime dislocation that causes fluids to jump into a turbulent mode from a laminar mode. I think that when the atomic shear rate exceeds a certain value, the distortion to the spacetime nodes can best be relaxed if the individual atoms shear away from laminar flow, thus in essence, healing the wound to spacetime. For the disk, the idea is to use a material that is so organized in it's topology that the only direction that ALL of the nuclei can go in to heal the damage to spacetime, is in the direction of the helix corkscrewing up through the aether spacetime nodes. What you can think of this is that each nucleus is emitting a train of pulses, ie waves, which we call "fields". Those pulsed waves take time to propogate from the nucleus of one atom to the nucleus of another atom in the helical layer beneath, and above. But because the atomic layers are helical, there is a continuous shearing produced with a net direction of thrust. The atoms below and above are always just away from where they should be to be in step with the spacetime topology wave energy arriving from the rest of the atoms in the disk. Thus, they are continuously trying to move in the direction of the nodes, but that leads to a continuous precession of the nuclear locations in the direction of the axis of rotation. Basically, rather than thinking of matter as being the stuff, and empty space as being whispy, you have to think in terms of matter as being whispy, and the aether and spacetime topology being the intense real stuff. This inversion of thinking allows you to recognize why physics works in the first place. Matter obeys the beat of spacetime religiously, and that is why you have to hit your brakes in your car, like it or not. Your matter spins up to a faster or slower frequency of vibration relative to the local spacetime topology when you accelerate or decelerate. And yes, this IS saying that there is essentially an absolute spacetime locally for things moving at sub relativistic velocities. At SR speeds, the solitons are literally like a wind of aether blowing through the universe, and so the spacetime around such a space craft begins to slip due to the vortical aether motions. But that is another story. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 18:06:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22084; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:55:44 +0000 Message-ID: <19980422005541.AAA10561 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"IRgGD2.0.xO5.X2KFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17756 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rick, >"We"* voted for Clinton, didn't we? GAG ! ##@?%#$ Sputter! > >:( > > > Reminds me of a comment by Ron Kovac to the > > effect that it's easy to find anomalies, but > > hard to get the advertising. > >By the way, thanks to Jed for posting this report. I think Vortex needs >more of this kind of work being discussed. If it really is easy to find so >many anomalies, I wish we were doing more here regarding confirming them >and spreading the word about them. Ditto and ditto. I called Jim Griggs quite a while ago to see about price and availability for a small unit and asked him about overunity claims. He denied the claims until I explained that I was interested in the unit for that reason. He went on to explain that he found he could not sell the units as easily if people thought he was making such a claim. It is a classic Catch-22. The measurements of such huge amounts of energy that would be evident in a Griggs device seems pretty straightforward to me, being a simple delta-T in a non-compressible working fluid. There certainly seems to be numerous people doing the measurements and walking away, concluding that they don't know how to make such measurements after all because they find C.O.P. > 1.0. Is it simply a matter that confirmation of OU automatically negates the test method for a majority of investigators? Well, no. Most devices are not robust, but the Griggs device is. I know that Jed has prodded Scott Little to test the Griggs machine. I don't remember if Scott's replied. Ron Kovac reports he consistently gets anomalous mass formation, including mass 5 in a vacuum chamber subject to what seems like aether vortices. Dr. Bockris did mass-spec on a sample he sent him that reportedly shows tritium and mass 5. Not being knowledgable enough to know what kind of errors he could be making, I cannot comment further, but I have seen no criticism of his work. Then there is that ever-in-the-back-of-my-mind Correa device. Now, isn't that easily measured? I don't see anything so difficult to replicate (although things are often much more than they appear). I understand that he reverses the charge and driving packs repeatedly and both wind up charged. I am not an electrochemist, but I think that testing energy capacity and state of charge of batteries is pretty basic science. Like many (most?) of the rest of us, I wish I had a device and a lab to do adequate testing. However, when I see people who have the credentials of competence making measurements that don't look very hard that are fairly consistent, I wonder if the credibility problem is cultural and not scientific and that no amount of hard evidence, short of a product in Wal-Mart, can sway the market. BTW, Gene and Jed, measuring delta-T across the radiator might be less prone to drawing criticism than measuring delta-T in a compressible fluid like air. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 18:16:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22127; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:55:50 +0000 Message-ID: <19980422005541.AAB10561 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"tbZEM.0.bP5.k2KFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17757 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 11:41 PM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >Ed Wrote >>Are FAT, DUMB & HAPPY the New Age Virtues? > >Hi Ed, > > Most of the "New Agers" that I've met are quite slim, however, you >might be able to apply this to about 60% of the general American population. >I heard a rumour that the Olympic Committee is being pressured by the Yanks >to recognize a new sport called "Waddling From the Parking Lot to the Group >Therapy Session". >The contestants have to perform the above task while screaming "MORE >PROZAC!". There's still room onboard the Polar Bear if you care to get away >from the cars, parking lots, and drug crazed waddlers. -Knuke > Well, now, didn't the New Age start with the dawning of Aquarius? In which case, the new agers are waddling and squawking across the parking lot. Really, the Polar Bear is a tempting thought. Ed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 18:38:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29857; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:26:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Nick Palmer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"z3olf1.0.PI7.JaKFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17758 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Any vos know how to get in touch with Nick Palmer, NJ FOE? Please relay this or have him writ e to me, thanks, JHS From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 20:15:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02968; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:08:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:08:37 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <42d72d0f.353cb2c4 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:00:32 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: testing Resent-Message-ID: <"hTt7M3.0.Ek.pyLFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17759 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Dumping the energy through a water water > heat exchanger and then measuring the COP is > the way to go. Then how would they get the 'right' answer when they use the setup on conventional equipment? Calibration runs? That's the part about the test setup description that bothered me too, Frank. Air blowing out a hole doesn't sound like a trustworthy way to take flow measurements. And although I'm sure the meters are better than the little hand-held pith ball Dwyers I used to use in my hang gliding days (we called them Dwyer Liars), it does sound suspicious. But it's kind of hard to come up with a valid criticism on it if it gets the right answers, even though it may intuitively represent a possible source of large error. I figure they've got it right anyway. It's a masive OU, 25%, 35% and up. Kind of hard to blame that on a little turbulence. However, I bet if someone brings up that turbulent air idea up on SPF, it would fly like an angel. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 20:23:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25368; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:09:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Off-topic, Millenium eve plans Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"O2yBW2.0.FC6.V_LFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17760 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Subj: What will happen Millenium Eve I just saw a news report (CNN) that at the port of Durban South Africa there is a project underway to reconstruct the Titanic in great detail and sail her from England to America on the eve of the new millenium. The plan is to get 2300 passengers as before to be on board for this "attempt" (if that is the right word for it). A representation of an engineering drawing was shown during the piece. There was no commentary referenced to the drawing in any way to say that it represented this "new" Titanic or the old one. At any rate there didn't appear to be any additional lifeboats. It is difficult for me to "stand to one side" of this "Millenium Fever" in order to try to be objective about it. There will be no "non Participants" when this day comes for those whom , God willing , are alive to see it. So given this unavoidable subjectivity I would like to say that this 2nd attempt to cross the Atlantic with a ship just like the one that sunk ,loaded with passengers but with no stated additional safety features evident must be unprecedented in the history of Mechanized Transport. Why are they (we) doing this or allowing it to proceed ? Jim Ostrowski Reference : Galatians 6:7 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 20:51:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17603; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:42:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:42:49 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Jeff Kooistra - Marinov comments Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:32:18 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6d64$9469f0d0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"5UHBY.0.gI4.rSMFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17761 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I copied my last vortex email to Jeff Kooistra. The following are his comments: ------------------------------------ >>Horace Heffner wrote: >>So far it strikes me that the term "motor" is very loosely applied. >> >>It would be nice to hear from George Holz and Jeff Kooistra on this. Well, the ring rotator isn't much of a motor, but it is the only thing that rotates continuously without commutation. It has the same problems as trying to make a conventional motor if you're limited to poles that only get to have one turn of wire on them--no good way to multiply the effects. The magnets are in a lousy spot to exert torque, and the brushes are in the best spot to brake the thing continuously. Without powerful rare earth magnets, we probably couldn't even find the effect. But rotating toroids (actually, I don't confine "flux" anymore in those devices--it's moot since flux isn't the driver) are practical. I whipped one up that I showed Phipps the other day that will go at least 1000 rpm, and that's using an unbalanced wooden dowel as the shaft. those are eminently practical, and should be what the pragmatists focus on, while leaving the ring rotators to the physicists. >I will try to minimize the Lorentz force by magnetic shielding of the ring leads. Even if I cannot eliminate the Lorentz force, I should be able to make it much smaller and compare it to the longitudinal force magnitude.< Since critics didn't seem to care how low you got the flux down, I decided to deliberately use leaky models and find contradictions with prediction from the Lorentz force law. This I did. Don't even think about working on a new motor until you see my IE #19 article. I understand this thing much better now. The whole "torus" issue is something of a red herring. I mean, Lorentz doesn't explain rotation even with leakage fields, since the forces on the ring don't point azimuthally. The Marinov motor works a lot like a regular motor qualitatively, but there is a distinct difference when one considers how the torus makes the ring rotate--that's where the extra stuff comes in (it's Lorentz + other good stuff ). My new article spells out a lot of stuff that will make building a motor a much less hit-and-miss sort of thing. >IMO the longitudinal force version provided by Phipps is clearly correct and even required by standard relativistic electromagnetics and for energy conservation reasons.< We've found lots of confirmation that the Phipps' and Wesley version conforms with Ampere-Neuman electrodynamics. >Although the Marinov motor will probably never be a practical device,<< Not a ring rotator probably, except maybe in small instances, but toroid rotators are so easy to construct that nanoscale applications should be their place. >Jeff's motor works, the longitudinal force is real and the implications are still open for productive invention - don't stop thinking about the longitudinal force and concentrate on Phipps' version, not the Marinov version.< RIGHT-O! Jeff ------------------------------------------- PS to Horace, a "Tim Allen" is to use lots more power. The reference is to the favorite problem solving technique of the main character in "Home Improvement", a popular TV show. Of course I only know this because of news articles about his outrageous salary. :3) George Holz Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 21:11:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23864; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:03:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:03:13 -0700 Message-ID: <19980421233310.2900.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Anton Rager Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"TKYEI1.0.aq5.zlMFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17762 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wow! Calorimetry is not my strong point, but are there any benchtop/desktop designs/ideas that might give us basement wannabes something to play with? Perhaps a handcranked unit with a sterling engine? [prototype for a bicycle....that means my measly 1/2HP legs could put out 3/4HP.....Like Greg LeMond! Watch out Tour De France....here I come!] Time for the thinking caps -- whose handing them out? ;) Later, == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 21:30:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09864; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:07:04 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:13:30 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"0LDoX1.0.2Q2.TpMFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17763 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-21 04:38:18 EDT, you write: > but if it's less than a few thousand it shouldn't be > too hard. In other words, I'm offering to chart your data if nothing better > comes up. > - Rick Monteverde > Honolulu, HI Well thanks Rick. I appreciate the offer. I am using Lotus to do the charting and I find with practice, I'm getting better at it. Learning curve with new software. Very frustrating at first but getting better. Thanks again for the offer. H2 regulator here at last....but I need to get a more suitable thermistor. The one I am using has an upper temp limit of 110 C. Not high enough. Need to get one in the 50 C to 200 C range. I'll find one somewhere in this pile of catalogs I've got lying around. Did some runs with the cheapo thermister with argon fill and was out of range right away. Example: 100 C = .975 Kohms, 105 C = .857 Kohms, and 110 C = .757 Kilohms. Highest temp reached with Ar fill .510 Kohms. Highest temp reached with Ar fill and K metal was .330 Kohms. These readings are not on the spec sheet for the thermistor. I charted the spec sheet but at the high end temps the curve is pretty flat so there is very little resistance change per degree C. I'll get something better suited. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 21:29:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04741; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:28:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:28:07 -0700 Message-ID: <353D7122.1C1B worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:25:06 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz Subject: Radioactive decay Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1g8Q.0.j91.K7NFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17765 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone ever tried to record the gravitational signature close to a radioactive specimen (i.e. a reactor at criticality)? BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 21:30:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03930; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:26:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:26:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:19:33 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: Hope the terms are right... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8N6YX2.0.Py.N5NFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17764 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through evaporation of 10 kg of water? Or however you ask this.... J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 22:05:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23179; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353D683D.43B bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:47:09 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: CF in Playboy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1uv0O.0.1g5.4ZNFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17766 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From p.39 of the May '98 issue of Playboy Magazine, "The Playboy Advisor": Thanks for telling readers about our remote-controlled vibrator in the April issue. You are correct about discreet sexual stimulation being on a lot of women's (and men's) minds. We recently held a sex-toy design contest that drew more than 100 entries, ranging from diagrams drawn on bar napkins to functional prototypes. The winner designed a pair of cycling shorts with . . . [explicit description snipped]. We've posted entries from the contest at www.goodvibes.com -- Rebecca Suzanne, Good Vibrations, San Francisco, California. [PB editorial response]: Sounds like quite a ride. If you have another contest, drop us a line. Not many people know this, but we're working on a vibrator that runs on cold fusion. [end of quote] Playboy, the one place you'd think hot fusion would dominate! Proof that CF has penetrated the American, er, psyche. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 22:36:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02047; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353D744F.4EE4 gorge.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:38:39 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: monteverde worldnet.att.net Subject: Re: Waves (was Anyone work with superconductors...) References: <199804220316.UAA06995 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"n1nvE.0.sV.n5OFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17767 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > Wind hammers the surface and kicks up waves. cf: (much) earlier discussion of sattelite photos of wave patterns in the Pacific. I have spent substantial time studying direct-overhead aerial photos, many of which show a nearby river. In EVERY such case, the waves on the river show a very neat, ordered pattern. Granted, the pictures must be taken in "severe clear" conditions, which occur mostly in the summer, when a surface pressure imbalance commonly sets up a westerly flow, but these series of films were taken on different hours, days, and years. Recently, I have had occasion to observe this same river, in various amounts of wind. I found that (any time there was enough wind to produce observable waves) when the waves were observed at nearly river level, there was no observable pattern. Other than a general trend to apparent movement with the wind, just chaotic movement (brownian motion?). HOWEVER, in the course of driving up (and down)a hill near the river [about 2 mi-horizontally, about 2,000 ft elevation change] I noted that: The higher above river elevation, the more the Perfect Pattern was visible. This observation held true over at least 50 days, 10 trips a day. So: at least in the case of *this* river, presuming a reasonably strong wind, what appears to be chaos can be observed to have a regular pattern, if viewed from a near-vertical POV. "It's all in how you look at it." Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 22:45:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03135; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001301bd6da8$b2539f80$2a8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Hope the terms are right... Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:39:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"3ufR6.0.om.-9OFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17768 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: John Schnurer To: vortex Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 10:29 PM Subject: Hope the terms are right... > > Dear Vo., > > How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through >evaporation of 10 kg of water? > > Or however you ask this.... About 1100*1051*2.2*10 ~= ? > > > > J > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 21 22:47:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03261; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:39:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804220458.XAA04423 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Hope the terms are right... In-Reply-To: from John Schnurer at "Apr 22, 98 00:19:33 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:58:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EKCrO1.0.qo.PAOFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17769 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through > evaporation of 10 kg of water? Okay, I think there are 533 moles of H20 in 10 Kg (10 liters, 10,000 cc). I think it takes 40,700 joules to boil a mole of water at 100 C. That gives 533*40,700 = 21,693,100 joules. However, you said evaporate, so let us assume room temperature. I think H2O gas has 33 joules/mole/degreeC molar heat capacity. Therefore since room temperature is 25C and I just calculated for 100C, I want to take back 75C worth of energy. 75*33*533 = 1,319,175 joules. Therefore, 21,693,100 - 1,319.175 = 20,373,925 joules. Or roughly 20 mega-joules to evaporate 10 Kg H20 at room temp (25C.) and 22 Mj at 100C. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 00:04:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20317; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:57:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <353D683D.43B bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:54:49 -1000 To: Vortex-L From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: CF in Playboy Resent-Message-ID: <"SgRZt3.0.Nz4.2JPFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17770 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Terry - Don't you engineers have some tech manuals or something you're _supposed_ to be reading? - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 01:04:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01171; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:00:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: hheffner corecom.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:05:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"JyZrA1.0.DI.XEQFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17771 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:11 AM 4/20/98, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > Four kilowatts of >electric input power drive a 6 HP-rated AC motor (3450 RPM). [snip] > The average real electric input power, automatically corrected for >the power factor was 4.27 kW. [snip] > The total input electrical >energy recorded during the entire 2.72 hours of data collection was 11.6 kWH.) [snip] > The average C.O.P. based on the temperature Delta T and average input >power was 1.19. The peak was 1.27. [snip] Total time of 2.72 hours is 9792 seconds. At 1.19 COP avg. that's 5.08 KW output, or 0.811 KW avg. excess power, or 7941 KW seconds, i.e. 7941 KJ, of excess heat. Entropy of Al oxidation is 61.8 KJ/g, so 128 g of aluminum oxidation would have to take place to account for the excess heat, or 47.5 cm^3. It would be pretty difficult to fail to observe the loss of 47 cubic centimeters of rotor, or cage. The water would initially have to be full of carbon or something to explain this amount of excess heat chemically. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 01:09:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02175; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:10:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hope the terms are right... Resent-Message-ID: <"P2tL03.0.sX.6JQFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17772 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:58 PM 4/21/98, John Logajan wrote: >> How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through >> evaporation of 10 kg of water? > >Okay, I think there are 533 moles of H20 in 10 Kg (10 liters, 10,000 cc). > >I think it takes 40,700 joules to boil a mole of water at 100 C. >That gives 533*40,700 = 21,693,100 joules. > >However, you said evaporate, so let us assume room temperature. > >I think H2O gas has 33 joules/mole/degreeC molar heat capacity. >Therefore since room temperature is 25C and I just calculated >for 100C, I want to take back 75C worth of energy. Doesn't it require an extra 75 C worth of warming to evaporate from the lower temperature? > >75*33*533 = 1,319,175 joules. > >Therefore, 21,693,100 - 1,319.175 = 20,373,925 joules. > >Or roughly 20 mega-joules to evaporate 10 Kg H20 at room temp (25C.) > and 22 Mj at 100C. > [snip[ Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 06:46:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20014; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:27:49 -0400 From: Soo Subject: Nick Palmer Sender: Soo To: "INTERNET:vortex-l eskimo.com" Message-ID: <199804220928_MC2-3AAD-FFE0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id GAA19854 Resent-Message-ID: <"rtHzt3.0.Nu4.WEVFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17773 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi John, Nick subscribes to this list. His email is: nick7 itl.net regards Soo From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 08:44:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09431; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:39:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:39:04 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:38:25 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Puthoff / Znidarsic Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"-OfAR3.0.BJ2.NyWFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Puthoff's work is built upon a foundation laid by A. Sakhorov. Puthoff's states that there is a background of ZPE. This ZPE contains much energy and has a cubic frequency distribution. .............................................................................. ........... Znidarsic's work is based on a foundation laid by K. Mendelsson. His ideas are based on a zero energy universe, the force/gravity symmetry, and the range of force interaction within condensed systems. .................................................................. It appears that Puthoff and Znidarsic are at odds with each other. .......................................................................... What is remarkable is their conclusions. In the early 1980's Znidarsic spoke with Puthoff and said something to the effect of that there is a deep connection between gravity and systems containing condensed charges. (-e > 10 exp 27 /mmm). Puthoff came to the same conclusion. Then in 1990 the Tempere effect was discovered. Upon visiting Puthoff many years ago Puthoff spoke about the anomalous energy effect that may be associated with condensed charges. Znidarsic wrote about the the same idea a few years earlier in his book Elementary Antigravity. This happened before the cold fusion effect was discovered and before signs of superconductivity were discovered in cold fusion electrodes and before anything was known about the electron loading within these systems. .............................................................................. ....... If we knew so much so early..why don't we have energy machings of our own design up and running by now? I believe it time for me to try again. ....................................... Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 09:57:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04413; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-ROUTED: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:36:02 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:44:28 -0400 From: paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" , "freenrg-l eskimo.com" Subject: Off topic (?) turbine question Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------87C9552DF86403A15DC615BA" Resent-Message-ID: <"Aijqy2.0.h41.jtXFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17775 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------87C9552DF86403A15DC615BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't know where else to ask this question...ran across an unusual idea for a low head water turbine...would like to try it....below is a gif of the invention. Would like to know how to calculate the width of the turbine blades, for maximum efficiency....anyone have any ideas. This unusual turbine might give someone some ideas for a different type of motor....(trying to get back on topic ).....thank you... steven opelc --------------87C9552DF86403A15DC615BA Content-Type: image/gif; name="helix_t.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="helix_t.gif" R0lGODlhjAB9APcAAAAAAAEBAQICAgMDAwQEBAUFBQYGBgcHBwgICAkJCQoKCgsLCwwMDA0N DQ4ODg8PDxAQEBERERISEhMTExQUFBUVFRYWFhcXFxgYGBkZGRoaGhsbGxwcHB0dHR4eHh8f HyAgICEhISIiIiMjIyQkJCUlJSYmJicnJygoKCkpKSoqKisrKywsLC0tLS4uLi8vLzAwMDEx MTIyMjMzMzQ0NDU1NTY2Njc3Nzg4ODk5OTo6Ojs7Ozw8PD09PT4+Pj8/P0BAQEFBQUJCQkND Q0REREVFRUZGRkdHR0hISElJSUpKSktLS0xMTE1NTU5OTk9PT1BQUFFRUVJSUlNTU1RUVFVV VVZWVldXV1hYWFlZWVpaWltbW1xcXF1dXV5eXl9fX2BgYGFhYWJiYmNjY2RkZGVlZWZmZmdn Z2hoaGlpaWpqamtra2xsbG1tbW5ubm9vb3BwcHFxcXJycnNzc3R0dHV1dXZ2dnd3d3h4eHl5 eXp6ent7e3x8fH19fX5+fn9/f4CAgIGBgYKCgoODg4SEhIWFhYaGhoeHh4iIiImJiYqKiouL i4yMjI2NjY6Ojo+Pj5CQkJGRkZKSkpOTk5SUlJWVlZaWlpeXl5iYmJmZmZqampubm5ycnJ2d 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-0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:38:55 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980422122119.00bb97d0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:21:19 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Off-topic, Millenium eve plans Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"1f3ko.0.Be1.kiYFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17776 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 08:09 PM 4/21/98 -0700, Jim Ostrowski wrote: > Why are they (we) doing this or allowing it to proceed ? 1. If a duplicate of the Titanic does sail with 2300 passengers, then there will be enough lifeboats and liferafts for all of them. I imagine what they will do is put inflatables inside the other lifeboats. 2. For new design cruise ships, there is currently a move afoot to eliminate all lifeboats! This is not as silly as it seems. There are technologies developed originally for North Sea oil rigs that have a much higher survival rate, especially in fires and heavy seas. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 10:58:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18979; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353E2B29.4457 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:38:49 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"47shc.0.Ne4.5lYFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17777 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: paula wrote: > > Don't know where else to ask this question...ran across an > unusual idea for a low head water turbine...would like to > try it....below is a gif of the invention. > > Would like to know how to calculate the width of the turbine > blades, for maximum efficiency....anyone have any ideas. > I don't know, Steven, calculating the details of a hydraulic turbine is never an easy job. I see from: http://www.privat.katedral.se/~nv96noda/turbines.htm that Kaplan turbines are common for low-head applications: "Since the Pelton turbine is not efficient in small water heads of 3 to 9 meters, the Kaplan turbine was developed by an Austrian engineer Viktor Kaplan in 1913. The turbine operates much like a boat propeller. Broad, swiveling blades on the turbine are spun by high-pressure water as it is released through schluice, driving the axel of the generator. This device could be used in many rivers where low dams could be built, and therefore wildly used." You might try a search of Alta Vista on the subject "hydraulic turbines" and brouse the results. I stumbled across the following from a search: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Water turbine for power projects In research sponsored by the US Department of Energy, New England Power Company and Allied Signal Inc, Professor A M Gorlov of Northeastern University in the US, has developed and patented a helical hydraulic turbine for mini and mega-power projects. A helical arrangement of airfoil blades provides unidirectional uniform rotation of the turbine for any direction or reversible water flow. It can become an efficient and low-cost new instrument for harnessing kinetic energy of the water flow in ocean, tidal estuaries or in rivers. The turbine is built from fibreglass with a frictionless teflon coating. Tel: US-616-373 3825. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this the invention you refer to, Steven? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 12:25:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06573; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:31:38 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: More "the terms" ... In-Reply-To: <199804220458.XAA04423 mirage.skypoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"KL8md2.0.Xc1.qxZFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17779 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Now: If I pull a vacuum with pumps and cause the water to boil due to reduced pressure ... how much "heat will be sucked up" ... due to heat lost through evaporation ... from evaporating 10 kg of water... And thanks again for your efforts. John On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, John Logajan wrote: > > How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through > > evaporation of 10 kg of water? > > Okay, I think there are 533 moles of H20 in 10 Kg (10 liters, 10,000 cc). > > I think it takes 40,700 joules to boil a mole of water at 100 C. > That gives 533*40,700 = 21,693,100 joules. > > However, you said evaporate, so let us assume room temperature. > > I think H2O gas has 33 joules/mole/degreeC molar heat capacity. > Therefore since room temperature is 25C and I just calculated > for 100C, I want to take back 75C worth of energy. > > 75*33*533 = 1,319,175 joules. > > Therefore, 21,693,100 - 1,319.175 = 20,373,925 joules. > > Or roughly 20 mega-joules to evaporate 10 Kg H20 at room temp (25C.) > and 22 Mj at 100C. > > -- > - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - > - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - > - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 12:26:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06550; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <353E3E48.2891688F css.mot.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:00:24 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SfGOF1.0.Cc1.kxZFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17778 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: paula wrote: > Don't know where else to ask this question...ran across an > unusual idea for a low head water turbine...would like to > try it....below is a gif of the invention. > > Would like to know how to calculate the width of the turbine > blades, for maximum efficiency....anyone have any ideas. 3D Builder Pro: Windows-based application that makes 3D models of real world data from as few as one photograph. Downloaded the demo, but have not tried it yet, so not sure how good or user friendly it is. The propaganda that got me to look for it online was boasting accuracies ~0.040". If and when I get around to playing with it I will post my findings. -- John E. Steck Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 13:18:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15509; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353DFEE3.18D2 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:29:55 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hope the terms are right... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iYFgN1.0.8o3.YeaFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17780 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Vo., > > How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through > evaporation of 10 kg of water? > >From Keenan & Keyes steam table, John: enthalpy of evaporation (from saturated liquid to saturated vapor) = h_fg. Temp, deg F h_fg, BTU/lb 40.23 1071.1 58.80 1060.6 70.43 1054.0 79.03 1049.2 91.72 1042.0 etc. etc. So, at 70.43 deg F = 21.35 deg C, h_fg = 1054 BTU/lb = 2,450,968 joules/kg = 24,509,680 joules/10 kg At 100 deg C, = 970.3/1054 X (above) = 22,143,152 joules/10 kg. Average the answers, John?? :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 13:21:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17980; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <353E3A82.5B1FF8C8 css.mot.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:44:18 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Discussion Group - Vortex Cc: hessel rulgm5.LeidenUniv.nl Subject: The Metal Physics Group Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------CCADD1A8020631038821E766" Resent-Message-ID: <"T3dLD.0.KO4.ppaFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17781 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CCADD1A8020631038821E766 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ladies and Gents- I was digging for information on glass-forming metallic liquids (like Vitreloy) and I ran across this website. These folks may be interested in helping out, participating in, or be able to offer valuable insight to the recently proposed superconductor-vortex experiment: >From their site: ----------------------- The Metal Physics Group is investigating various topics interconnected through the unusual superconducting and magnetic properties of new materials in single crystal or artificially structured form. It is our goal not only to determine if the combinations of system plus fabrication will lead to novel physics but also whether any possibilities for applications exist. The "novel physics" is related to competing energy scales in disordered systems, spin dependent proximity effects, size effects on correlated electrons, and spin and charge gaps. The main topics which are being examined by this approach are: A. Physics of superconducting vortex lattices and liquids in both high Tc and conventional superconductors. B. Properties of magnetic and superconducting films and multilayers prepared via sputtering techniques. C. Bulk and thin film properties of strongly correlated f- electron systems, e.g. heavy fermions, non-Fermi liquids, Kondo insulators and quantum magnets. D. Mesoscopic effects in specially fabricated wires and dots of magnetic materials relating to their ferromagnetic and spin- glass behaviours. E. Development of STM techniques both for topological and spectroscopic studies of the above-listed materials. ----------------------- Attached is a list of recent pre-prints by members of the Kamerlingh Onnes Laboratory. Perhaps an invitation to participate in Vortex-L is in order? Any chance a member is already lurking? -- John E. Steck Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville --------------CCADD1A8020631038821E766 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="comm_97.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="comm_97.htm" Content-Base: "http://www-kol.leidenuniv.nl/~wwwman/c omm/comm_97/comm_97.htm" Communications_KOL

Communications
from
the
Kamerlingh Onnes Laboratory

1997

Last updated 6-OCT-1997 by rysewyk rulkol.leidenuniv.nl
--------------CCADD1A8020631038821E766-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 13:49:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28451; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:34:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:34:49 -0700 Message-ID: <002f01bd6e2d$ab3f54c0$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: [Off Topic] New Study on Global Warming Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:31:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD6E03.BE2C6660" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"H_KxL.0.6y6.ZHbFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17782 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD6E03.BE2C6660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a new study on Global Warming coming out in next week's issue of = Nature. Here's the online link: =20 http://www.umass.edu/newsoffice/press/98/0422cli.html =20 >From this abstract is a link to the actual study, and to associated = figures. =20 I'm interested to know your thoughts on this issue. This is the first = study I've seen that appears to be believable, though an associate = climatologist, also appearing in Nature, wrote that "the authors=92 = approach showed promise, but also meant that further studies are needed = due to their novel use of tree rings, ice cores, ice-melt indexes, coral = reefs and historical weather records to reconstruct temperatures." =20 The arguments I have against surface observations are the = inconsistencies in the measurements that have accrued over the years. = Most of the measurements aren't measuring weather in the same type of = terrain as that which existed 100 years ago. Many of the observation = sites have moved, and most, if not all, of the sites from which = comparisons were being made, are now urbanized, and subject to local = heating which becomes particularly apparent at night, and in the winter, = which is when most of the apparent warming is demonstrated to occur. = This study could eliminate this argument. Perhaps Global Warming is = real. =20 Thoughts? =20 Craig Haynie (Houston) =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD6E03.BE2C6660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There's a new study on Global = Warming coming out=20 in next week's issue of Nature. Here's the online link:
 
http://www= .umass.edu/newsoffice/press/98/0422cli.html
 
From this abstract is a link to the actual study, = and to=20 associated figures.
 
I'm interested to know your thoughts on this issue. = This is=20 the first study I've seen that appears to be believable, though an = associate=20 climatologist, also appearing in Nature, wrote that "the = authors’=20 approach showed promise, but also meant that further studies are needed = due to=20 their novel use of tree rings, ice cores, ice-melt indexes, coral reefs = and=20 historical weather records to reconstruct = temperatures."
 
The arguments I have against surface observations = are the=20 inconsistencies in the measurements that have accrued over the years. = Most of=20 the measurements aren't measuring weather in the same type of terrain as = that=20 which existed 100 years ago. Many of the observation sites have moved, = and most,=20 if not all, of the sites from which comparisons were being made, are now = urbanized, and subject to local heating which becomes particularly = apparent at=20 night, and in the winter, which is when most of the apparent warming is=20 demonstrated to occur. This study could eliminate this argument. Perhaps = Global=20 Warming is real.
 
Thoughts?
 
Craig Haynie (Houston)
 
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BD6E03.BE2C6660-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 14:27:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04108; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:17:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:17:11 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:10:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: More the .... Hope the terms are right..water stuff. In-Reply-To: <353DFEE3.18D2 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"uES6b1.0.201.LvbFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17783 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Frank, Does than mean if I take 10 kg water and put it in a sealed contained and pull a partial vacuum to make it boil thet the pot will 'suck' 22,000,000 J from the pot? If not, then what.... presume temp is 25 C. Thanks, On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > John Schnurer wrote: > > > > Dear Vo., > > > > How much energy in Joules do you get in heat loss through > > evaporation of 10 kg of water? > > > >From Keenan & Keyes steam table, John: > > enthalpy of evaporation (from saturated liquid to saturated vapor) = > h_fg. > > Temp, deg F h_fg, BTU/lb > > 40.23 1071.1 > 58.80 1060.6 > 70.43 1054.0 > 79.03 1049.2 > 91.72 1042.0 > etc. etc. > So, at 70.43 deg F = 21.35 deg C, > h_fg = 1054 BTU/lb = 2,450,968 joules/kg = 24,509,680 joules/10 kg > > At 100 deg C, = 970.3/1054 X (above) = 22,143,152 joules/10 kg. > > Average the answers, John?? :-) > > Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 14:29:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04862; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:18:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:18:51 -0700 Message-ID: <353E5DA1.7872 keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:14:09 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: KeelyNet-L lists.kz Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hEpgr.0.jB1.twbFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17784 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Steven et al! You asked about design parameters for a new type of turbine blade that looks like a DNA helix. The picture you attached looks remarkably like a wind generator called a 'Savonius Rotor'. During the 70's and 80's there was much talk of using these because they were simple to build and were remarkably efficient for generating power from wind AND for pushing boats across the water. Pop Sci had some great drawings of a couple of these rotors mounted on either end of a ship....huge rotors they were, but they functioned much like sales, except that their spin screwed the boat across the water as the air moved the rotors.....you might check to see if anyone has tried using a Savoinius Rotor with water....good idea!!!! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 15:17:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12186; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:01:42 -0700 (PDT) From: ehammond pacbell.net Message-ID: <353E69F9.3558 pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:06:49 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-PBME (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: The Metal Physics Group References: <353E3A82.5B1FF8C8 css.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q_kA72.0.H-2.nYcFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17785 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You might want to contact Conductus Corp in Sunnyvale,Ca. They work on superconductors. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 15:24:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09431; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:39:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:39:04 -0700 From: FZNIDARSIC Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:38:25 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Puthoff / Znidarsic Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Resent-Message-ID: <"-OfAR3.0.BJ2.NyWFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17774 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Puthoff's work is built upon a foundation laid by A. Sakhorov. Puthoff's states that there is a background of ZPE. This ZPE contains much energy and has a cubic frequency distribution. .............................................................................. ........... Znidarsic's work is based on a foundation laid by K. Mendelsson. His ideas are based on a zero energy universe, the force/gravity symmetry, and the range of force interaction within condensed systems. .................................................................. It appears that Puthoff and Znidarsic are at odds with each other. .......................................................................... What is remarkable is their conclusions. In the early 1980's Znidarsic spoke with Puthoff and said something to the effect of that there is a deep connection between gravity and systems containing condensed charges. (-e > 10 exp 27 /mmm). Puthoff came to the same conclusion. Then in 1990 the Tempere effect was discovered. Upon visiting Puthoff many years ago Puthoff spoke about the anomalous energy effect that may be associated with condensed charges. Znidarsic wrote about the the same idea a few years earlier in his book Elementary Antigravity. This happened before the cold fusion effect was discovered and before signs of superconductivity were discovered in cold fusion electrodes and before anything was known about the electron loading within these systems. .............................................................................. ....... If we knew so much so early..why don't we have energy machings of our own design up and running by now? I believe it time for me to try again. ....................................... Frank Znidarsic From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 15:56:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03903; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:51:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:51:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:51:36 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199804222251.XAA14837 popmail.dircon.co.uk> X-Sender: dominic popmail.dircon.co.uk (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Dominic Murphy Subject: Stan Meyer dead Resent-Message-ID: <"MvJik2.0.qy.8IdFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17787 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I regret to inform you that I have a confirmed report of the death of Stan Meyer. I have heared that he died of a brain hemorage at a celebration of his projected 56 acre research park for water energy technology. More reports from Grove City Record. It is roumoured that his brother will continue his work. Dominic Murphy 44+ (0)181 580 2715 0973 886770 (mobile) dominic dircon.co.uk From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 15:58:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20079; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980422184733.00bcaaf0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:47:33 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: [Off Topic] New Study on Global Warming In-Reply-To: <002f01bd6e2d$ab3f54c0$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"lh9qP3.0.cv4.oDdFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17786 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:31 PM 4/22/98 -0500, Craig Haynie wrote: This study could eliminate this argument. Perhaps Global Warming is real. Yeah, I believe most of their data. I do see differences from the "accepted" reality in the historical data, mainly that I would expect the mini-Ice Age in the 1600s to stand out more. I suspect that most of the differences are due to the sensitivity of their sampling points to the ocean currents, particularly the Gulf Stream. Having said that, I see ANY attempt to use this data to justify a "global warming" conclusion as junk science. One of the best integrated data collection systems in this area is the Mediterranean. Since more water evaporates from the Mediterranean than is replaced by rainfall and rivers, the water level requires constant inflow through the Straights of Gibraltar. Measuring either that current, via erosion, or water levels in the Med gives a good picture of temperatures in that area going back several thousand years. To make a long story short, during that period, several Greek temples have been submerged and reemerged. But if you go to Greece to look at the ruins, there are many that can still only be reached by aqualung today. The period from about 600 AD to 1900 AD was one of the coldest in recent history. Remember all the Viking colonies in Greenland (and for that matter North America). Try to figure out how Greenland got that name. Well, the weather got cold, and over a period of centuries, the colonies died out. So yes, we just had three of the warmest years in this millenium. But in the previous millenia, they would have been counted as cold. So the real question is not whether things are warming up, but how much is due to the activities of man and how much due to other factors. If eliminating all "industrial" CO2 from the atmosphere had glaiciers knocking over skyscrapers in New York, Chicago, etc., should we do that? This is not to say that the sharpness of the trendline is not worrisome. In the past such fast changes in climate have all been in the downward direction. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 16:28:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14921; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:26:36 -0700 Message-ID: <19980422232727.28246.rocketmail send1c.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:27:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Anton Rager Subject: Abstract of using sound to control liquids To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"vRxUy3.0.xe3.godFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17788 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello All, Ran across this today.....looks like it might be an upcoming NASA tech-brief from Lewis Center. Will keep an eye out for it in upcoming isssues. Manipulating Liquids with Acoustic Radiation Pressure http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/TU/LBIStech/CF/CF0701.PDF Summary: ultrasonic transducers can be used to manipulate fluids or manipulate bubbles or solids suspended in fluids. Very cool. == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 16:57:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03250; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:46:54 -0700 (PDT) X-ROUTED: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:40:30 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <353E821E.E44A5297 southconn.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:49:50 -0400 From: paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> <353E2B29.4457@interlaced.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yJYtD1.0.bo.c5eFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17789 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank...thats the,one Gorlov Turbine, can't find an email or address for Alexander Gorlov, am looking into building it because of its simplicity of construction, am trying not to make a bunch of them with different size blades...thought some of the math people out there could come up with something for the width of the blades .....am hoping....steve Francis J. Stenger wrote: > > paula wrote: > > > > Don't know where else to ask this question...ran across an > > unusual idea for a low head water turbine...would like to > > try it....below is a gif of the invention. > > > > Would like to know how to calculate the width of the turbine > > blades, for maximum efficiency....anyone have any ideas. > > > > I don't know, Steven, calculating the details of a hydraulic turbine is > never an easy job. I see from: > > http://www.privat.katedral.se/~nv96noda/turbines.htm > > that Kaplan turbines are common for low-head applications: > > "Since the Pelton turbine is not efficient in small water heads > of 3 to 9 meters, the Kaplan turbine was developed by an > Austrian engineer Viktor Kaplan in 1913. The turbine > operates much like a boat propeller. Broad, swiveling blades > on the turbine are spun by high-pressure water as it is released > through schluice, driving the axel of the generator. This > device could be used in many rivers where low dams could be > built, and therefore wildly used." > > You might try a search of Alta Vista on the subject "hydraulic turbines" > and brouse the results. I stumbled across the following from a search: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > "Water turbine for power projects > > In research sponsored by the US Department of Energy, New England Power > Company and Allied > Signal Inc, Professor A M Gorlov of Northeastern University in the US, > has developed and > patented a helical hydraulic turbine for mini and mega-power projects. > > A helical arrangement of airfoil blades provides unidirectional uniform > rotation of the turbine for any > direction or reversible water flow. It can become an efficient and > low-cost new instrument for > harnessing kinetic energy of the water flow in ocean, tidal estuaries or > in rivers. The turbine is built > from fibreglass with a frictionless teflon coating. > > Tel: US-616-373 3825. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is this the invention you refer to, Steven? > > Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 17:00:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03819; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:48:47 -0700 (PDT) X-ROUTED: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:42:32 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <353E8282.71151621 southconn.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:51:30 -0400 From: paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> <353E3E48.2891688F@css.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UBmUv3.0.bx.S7eFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17790 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John...thanks will try it out.....let you know if it works... steve John Steck wrote: > > paula wrote: > > Don't know where else to ask this question...ran across an > > unusual idea for a low head water turbine...would like to > > try it....below is a gif of the invention. > > > > Would like to know how to calculate the width of the turbine > > blades, for maximum efficiency....anyone have any ideas. > > 3D Builder Pro: > > > Windows-based application that makes 3D models of real world data from as few > as one photograph. Downloaded the demo, but have not tried it yet, so not sure > how good or user friendly it is. The propaganda that got me to look for it > online was boasting accuracies ~0.040". If and when I get around to playing > with it I will post my findings. > > -- > John E. Steck > Rapid Tooling Applications > Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 17:09:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21546; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:05:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:05:08 -0700 X-ROUTED: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:00:34 -0500 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Paula Message-ID: <353E846F.B110C6C4 southconn.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:59:43 -0400 From: paula X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdecker keelynet.com CC: vortex-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> <353E5DA1.7872@keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J2tav1.0.aG5.pMeFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17791 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks for reply Jerry, you are right, also known as darius rotor (i think)...will let everyone know my results when I get one built...seems a lot of people are interested....steve Jerry W. Decker wrote: > > Hi Steven et al! > > You asked about design parameters for a new type of turbine blade that > looks like a DNA helix. > > The picture you attached looks remarkably like a wind generator called a > 'Savonius Rotor'. During the 70's and 80's there was much talk of using > these because they were simple to build and were remarkably efficient > for generating power from wind AND for pushing boats across the water. > > Pop Sci had some great drawings of a couple of these rotors mounted on > either end of a ship....huge rotors they were, but they functioned much > like sales, except that their spin screwed the boat across the water as > the air moved the rotors.....you might check to see if anyone has tried > using a Savoinius Rotor with water....good idea!!!! > -- > Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com > http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" > Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 > KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 19:00:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00646; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353E9F98.2EAE interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:55:36 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More the .... Hope the terms are right..water stuff. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6Jz5S.0.x9.r_fFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17792 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > Dear Frank, > > Does than mean if I take 10 kg water and put it in a sealed > contained and pull a partial vacuum to make it boil thet the pot will > 'suck' 22,000,000 J from the pot? If not, then what.... presume temp is > 25 C. The answer is yes, roughly, - I think. :-) John, forgive me for converting to English units, but my old steam table book is in those units. Let's see, 25 x 1.8 = 45, plus 32 = 77 deg F. K&K says that at 77 deg F, the vapor pressure of water is 0.4593 psia or, 0.9352 in. Hg (23.754 mm Hg) absolute. The enthalpy of evaporation at this condition is: 1050.4 BTU/lb X 1054.8 joules/BTU X 1 lb/0.4536 kg = 2,442,597 joules/kg - significant figures be damned. So, if you put water in a pot and pull a vacuum on it and hold the pressure at 23.754 mm Hg, and start with 25 deg C water, the water will boil and remove 2,442,597 joules per kilogram of liquid evaporated at that constant temperature. If you hold the pressure, but cut the heat input to the water, the water will cool until it stops boiling. One sneaky thing about this, John, the process is a natural degasser of the water and soon the disolved gasses will be very low - purged from the pot by the out-flowing water vapor (Remember, this is how Bill B. made his "clink tubes"!) When this happens, the boiling could get eratic and upset the dynamic equilibrium of the process. It would probably be wise to include some nucleation "junk" in the pot to promote smooth boiling. Has anyone out there had any real experience with vacuum induced water boiling as in John's pot? The bottom line, John, is that if you do this process, and if you want to know the exact heat of vaporization of the water at ANY temperature, this is tabulated in any good steam tables - along with the vapor or saturation pressure for that temperature. The Keenan and Keyes steam table was copyrighted in 1936 and my copy is the 26th printing in 1954. I often wonder how good these water properties hold up in light of more modern data and computers. Anyone have an up-to-date critique of these old steam tables - or a more modern version? As of 1954 these steam tables were as close to a holy book for mechanical engineers as you could find outside of sunday-school. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 19:11:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05724; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:08:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:08:27 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <008801bd6e5c$25b4e2a0$318cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: More the .... Hope the terms are right..water stuff. Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:03:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"86Ds23.0.DP1.PAgFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17794 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 7:57 PM Subject: Re: More the .... Hope the terms are right..water stuff. They use vacuum evaporation to chill/freeze lettuce, down on the farm. They load the fresh picked lettuce on carts, roll it into a large chamber and pull a quick vacuum on it. The heat in the produce boils off the water vapor and drops the temperature to freezing. FJSp >John Schnurer wrote: >> >> Dear Frank, >> >> Does than mean if I take 10 kg water and put it in a sealed >> contained and pull a partial vacuum to make it boil thet the pot will >> 'suck' 22,000,000 J from the pot? If not, then what.... presume temp is >> 25 C. > >The answer is yes, roughly, - I think. :-) > >John, forgive me for converting to English units, but my old steam >table book is in those units. >Let's see, 25 x 1.8 = 45, plus 32 = 77 deg F. > >K&K says that at 77 deg F, the vapor pressure of water is 0.4593 psia >or, 0.9352 in. Hg (23.754 mm Hg) absolute. The enthalpy of evaporation >at this condition is: >1050.4 BTU/lb X 1054.8 joules/BTU X 1 lb/0.4536 kg = 2,442,597 joules/kg >- significant figures be damned. > >So, if you put water in a pot and pull a vacuum on it and hold the >pressure at 23.754 mm Hg, and start with 25 deg C water, the water will >boil and remove 2,442,597 joules per kilogram of liquid evaporated at >that constant temperature. If you hold the pressure, but cut the heat >input to the water, the water will cool until it stops boiling. > >One sneaky thing about this, John, the process is a natural degasser of >the water and soon the disolved gasses will be very low - purged from >the pot by the out-flowing water vapor (Remember, this is how Bill B. >made his "clink tubes"!) When this happens, the boiling could get >eratic and upset the dynamic equilibrium of the process. It would >probably be wise to include some nucleation "junk" in the pot to promote >smooth boiling. Has anyone out there had any real experience with >vacuum induced water boiling as in John's pot? > >The bottom line, John, is that if you do this process, and if you want >to know the exact heat of vaporization of the water at ANY temperature, >this is tabulated in any good steam tables - along with the vapor >or saturation pressure for that temperature. > >The Keenan and Keyes steam table was copyrighted in 1936 and my copy >is the 26th printing in 1954. I often wonder how good these water >properties hold up in light of more modern data and computers. Anyone >have an up-to-date critique of these old steam tables - or a more >modern version? As of 1954 these steam tables were as close to a holy >book for mechanical engineers as you could find outside of >sunday-school. > >Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 19:14:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02976; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353EA1C2.51D7 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:04:50 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Off topic (?) turbine question References: <353E1E6C.A5416030 southconn.com> <353E2B29.4457@interlaced.net> <353E821E.E44A5297@southconn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Hzwqn.0.Ok.L8gFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17793 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: paula wrote: > > Frank...thats the,one Gorlov Turbine, can't find an email or > address for Alexander Gorlov, am looking into building it > because of its simplicity of construction, am trying not to > make a bunch of them with different size blades...thought > some > of the math people out there could come up with something > for > the width of the blades > .....am hoping....steve Steven, why don't you try the telephone no. and see if more detail is available? > > > Tel: US-616-373 3825. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 22:12:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08840; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:08:25 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804230506.AAA28405 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Hope the terms are right... In-Reply-To: from Horace Heffner at "Apr 22, 98 00:10:56 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:06:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"pzT292.0.0A2.8piFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17795 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > there are 533 moles of H20 in 10 Kg (10 liters, 10,000 cc). > > it takes 40,700 joules to boil a mole of water at 100 C. > >That gives 533*40,700 = 21,693,100 joules. > >However, you said evaporate, so let us assume room temperature. > >H2O gas has 33 joules/mole/degreeC molar heat capacity. > >Therefore since room temperature is 25C and I just calculated > >for 100C, I want to take back 75C worth of energy. > >75*33*533 = 1,319,175 joules. > >Therefore, 21,693,100 - 1,319.175 = 20,373,925 joules. > > Doesn't it require an extra 75 C worth of warming to evaporate from the > lower temperature? Energy must be conserved. Steam will typically condense back to liquid at 25C, but suppose the vapor is "diluted" in the air so that H2O molecules seldom after encounter each other. Yet they are at room temperature. So you really can have "cool" vapor. That's why if you have numbers measured for boiling at 100C (as I had) you have to correct back to the final temperature (or in the case of evaporation, the starting and ending temperature being the same, around 25C.) -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 22:26:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10558; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:16:18 -0700 (PDT) From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804230514.AAA28472 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: More "the terms" ... In-Reply-To: from John Schnurer at "Apr 22, 98 02:31:38 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:14:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kSmOQ3.0.ta2.VwiFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17796 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > If I pull a vacuum with pumps and cause the water to boil > due to reduced pressure ... how much "heat will be sucked up" ... due to > heat lost through evaporation ... from evaporating 10 kg of water... If the "ambient" temperature is 25C, then you will suck up 20Mj. You've built a classic evaporation/refrigeration device. You have to keep pumping out the water vapor to maintain the partial vacuum, and the ambient temperature keeps thermal inflow to the boiling water. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 22:40:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14973; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353ED224.46AE keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:31:16 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Off Topic] New Study on Global Warming References: <3.0.1.32.19980422184733.00bcaaf0 spectre.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lkQTG.0.sf3.yDjFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17797 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Robert et al! You wrote; > The period from about 600 AD to 1900 AD was one of the coldest in > recent history. Remember all the Viking colonies in Greenland (and > for that matter North America). Try to figure out how Greenland got > that name. Well, the weather got cold, and over a period of > centuries, the colonies died out. I remember in school being taught that Greenland and Iceland were intentionally named as opposite descriptions of the climate. The purpose being to direct attention away from the more temperate Iceland and to the colder Greenland. It sounded like a fishy explanation at the time but not worth verifying. A psychological ploy to keep as many marauders away as they could by relying on the picture painted by the name. I would think once word got out, the whole scheme would be outed, in other words, it worked the first time........ -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 22 23:25:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22636; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353EDD45.25C1 worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:18:45 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More "the terms" ... References: <199804230514.AAA28472 mirage.skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sU-UH3.0.XX5.TvjFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17798 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > You have to keep pumping out the water vapor to maintain the partial > vacuum, and the ambient temperature keeps thermal inflow to the > boiling water. Where I work, for refrigeration we use a closed-loop system which does this, but the vacuum boiling of the water (steam is used) cools off a series of pipes, and the vacuum is maintained by a VERY rich solution of Lithium Bromide (LiBr), when the LiBr is to be recycled it is called lean due to the high water content. It is recycled by way of a heat exchanger which pipes yet more steam to boil the water out of the LiBr. This works very well BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 00:10:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00549; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <7e643f43.353ee87c aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:06:35 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"Up57j.0.V8.5akFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17799 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I need some help to extropolate to higher than published specs for the Radio Shack thermistor, part number 271-110 that I used in the first runs of H2 + K. The resistance readings show a higher temperature reading that is covered by the spec sheet that comes with the thermistor. Here are the specs from 0 C to 110 C. Temp (C) Kilohms 0__________27.28 5__________22.05 10_________17.96 15_________14.68 20_________12.09 25_________10.00 30__________8.313 35__________6.941 40__________5.828 45__________4.912 50__________4.161 55__________3.537 60__________3.021 65__________2.589 70__________2.229 75__________1.924 80__________1.669 85__________1.451 90__________1.366 95__________1.108 100__________.9735 105__________.8575 110__________.7579 OK, here ends the specifications given by Radio Shack. Using the data given above, can some math wizard vortexian take the resistance readings and extropilate down to at least .05 Kilohms? I got some interesting temperature readings when running H2+K but they are much higher than the specs cover, so all I have is about 150 data points, all in kilohms, lots of them outside the thermister specs. I know, I should use the right one ect. but this was the first run and it was interesting and all I had was what I had. So if the temp specs can be extropilated it would be nice because, at this moment, thats all I got. I have no way of running an actual known temperature calibration on the thermistor. I hope you vorts out there have Lotus 123. Thats what I am using to plot the graphs of each run. They get saved in Lotus in >filename.wk4< file format. Sorry, thats all I have. They are small (5k or so) so I will attach to the experiment posts. They have the raw data for each run and a graph of the data. [Note to Bill Beatty: if this is ungood, pls let me know] A five hour exausting, interesting run tonight. I'm gonna crack a Coors. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 00:30:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03841; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:27:41 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <57c0820b.353eece0 aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:25:18 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"rftR02.0.wx.hrkFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17800 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-23 03:08:05 EDT,I wrote: > All, I need some help to extropolate... If the _complete_ specs I will provide the resistance readings for -5 to -50 C to anyone who requests them. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 00:47:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06943; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353EF084.5C77 worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:40:52 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freenrg-l eskimo.com, KeelyNet-L@lists.kz, vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: References wanted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LNUPe3.0.Ji1.S6lFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17801 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I was wondering if anyone on the list could point me to a website which would enlighten me on quantum mechanics theory. I have wanted to explore it, but for now don't have the funding to buy books and the libraries here suck. BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 00:55:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09564; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353EF241.69BD worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:48:17 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More "the terms" ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"8cS9Y1.0.IL2.MDlFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17802 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Logajan wrote: > You have to keep pumping out the water vapor to maintain the partial > vacuum, and the ambient temperature keeps thermal inflow to the > boiling water. Where I work, for refrigeration we use a closed-loop system which does this, but the vacuum boiling of the water (steam is used) cools off a series of pipes, and the vacuum is maintained by a VERY rich solution of Lithium Bromide (LiBr), when the LiBr is to be recycled it is called lean due to the high water content. It is recycled by way of a heat exchanger which pipes yet more steam to boil the water out of the LiBr. This works very well BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 01:54:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18672; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:47:01 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <353EFD55.7599ED24 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:35:33 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Re: References wanted References: <353EF084.5C77 worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Xypzg3.0.fZ4.C6mFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17803 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Perry wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone on the list could point me to a website which > would enlighten me on quantum mechanics theory. [snip] This is useful site having a good online library reflecting recent developments too: http://web.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/user/r/e/redingtn/www/netadv/ Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 02:45:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26649; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353F0BD2.5BDB worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:37:22 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: References wanted References: <353EF084.5C77 worldnet.att.net> <353EFD55.7599ED24@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"y5PK12.0.EW6.epmFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17804 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Perry wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone on the list could point me to a website > > >which would enlighten me on quantum mechanics theory. Hamdi Ulcar wrote: > This is useful site having a good online library reflecting recent >developments too: > http://web.mit.edu/afs/athena.mit.edu/user/r/e/redingtn/www/netadv/ > Regards, > hamdi ucar Thanks Hamdi, this site is really informative! Regards, BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 06:06:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA27014; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:05:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:03:01 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" Subject: Re: Jeff Kooistra - Marinov comments In-Reply-To: <01bd6d64$9469f0d0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"8TVnj2.0._b6.9opFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17805 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Motormen, If you want to increase the torque, could you somehow duplicate the loop around the toroid - a bit like increasing the 'turns ratio'? Same current flowing around several times into the hoop. Sort of stack 'em but make sure that the current always enters in on one side on the stack. I may have a go at this, I'd like to see the face of one of my know-it-all-physics-is-complete-lecturers-now-the-grand-equation -for-all-engineering-problems-must-be-sought-put-it-in-the-computer-turn- the-dial-all-of-engineering-too-voila! Some excellent experimenting as mentioned in IE. How did Phillips put it 'experimentors seens as second class citizens'. Bah humbug! Well designed experiments saves a lot of fiddling with so called models. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 06:36:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00220; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:33:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:31:07 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <57c0820b.353eece0 aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3Lzl_1.0.13.jCqFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17807 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, VCockeram wrote: > > All, I need some help to extropolate... > > If the _complete_ specs I will provide the resistance readings for -5 to -50 C > to anyone who requests them. > Also military spec devices have larger ranges 'cos its tough in the military. Also many ingenious ways of measuring temp. any text on measurement will do. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 06:40:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29770; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:17:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:15:35 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: More "the terms" ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4GskE3.0.4H7.wzpFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17806 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, John Schnurer wrote: > > Now: If I pull a vacuum with pumps and cause the water to boil > due to reduced pressure ... how much "heat will be sucked up" ... due to > heat lost through evaporation ... from evaporating 10 kg of water... > > > And thanks again for your efforts. > > > John ANd what happens when the water re-condenses? If that thing reducing the vapour pressure is a hygroscopic substance you don't need a vacuum pump. Practise a little harder than theory though. Unless you know a better way. Science and inventing is all good fun. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 06:40:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14018; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:33:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:33:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:28:16 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <7e643f43.353ee87c aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ur1gl1.0.tQ3.wCqFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17808 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, VCockeram wrote: > All, > I need some help to extropolate to higher than published specs for the > Radio Shack thermistor, part number 271-110 that I used in the first > runs of H2 + K. The resistance readings show a higher temperature > reading that is covered by the spec sheet that comes with the thermistor. > Here are the specs from 0 C to 110 C. > Temp (C) Kilohms > 0__________27.28 > 5__________22.05 > 10_________17.96 > 15_________14.68 > 20_________12.09 > 25_________10.00 > 30__________8.313 > 35__________6.941 > 40__________5.828 > 45__________4.912 > 50__________4.161 > 55__________3.537 > 60__________3.021 > 65__________2.589 > 70__________2.229 > 75__________1.924 > 80__________1.669 > 85__________1.451 > 90__________1.366 > 95__________1.108 > 100__________.9735 > 105__________.8575 > 110__________.7579 > Get a book on the type of device you are using and find its law (the formula with coeffs). I think the manuf. limit its range because they make them in a batch and outside the range, tolerances slip. You're gonna have to calibrate. If the device works at higher temps, you can use 'knowns' such as the melting point of lead, or alloys of know comp. Then just plot on probably log-log paper and get those coeffs! Probably not good to extrapolate into the unknown. You can use maths to prove just about anything, ask a statician. Just remember, when you see those IQ tests when they ask you to predict the next number, a mathematician can prove that its any number you like. Heh, heh, heh. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 07:20:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21510; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:14:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:14:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:14:01 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [off topic]'Hot Britainia' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"6aqKK2.0.tF5.6pqFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17809 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Er, Vo, Since the World can now dump its nuclear waste here by special agreement between Tone and Bill, have we been rebranded from 'cool' to 'hot'? You can't smoke. You can't eat beef on bone. You can't pistol shoot. And on and on and on... You see how it works, popularism? Sentimentality, irrationality, victimisation politics and expediency. You wait, when some buddy buddy lobby see you muscling in on their 'turf', you'll become the victim. That's how it worked for Hitler, Stalin, Pol-pot (nice guys, kill your free thinkers in the name of brotherhood). Just a prediction. Don't mean to be dramatic. Big government, bad news. Don't believe this 3rd way crap, they're just re-inventing themselves. And don't say it couldn't happen again in Europe. Look what happened when there was last trouble in the Balkans. The single currency will end in tears. EOP End-of-polemic. Oh in the UK list of heroes (last week), I forgot(!!) Faraday, Dalton, Jocelyn Bell, and more. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 07:36:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30384; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:34:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:34:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:33:56 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199804231433.HAA29887 slave3.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke pop.aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: knuke aa.net (Michael T Huffman) Subject: Cavitation College Update #3 Resent-Message-ID: <"9AzpE.0.HQ7.X5rFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17810 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Cavitation College is a free educational service of the Huffman Technology Company, a Seattle, Washington USA manufacturer of fine cavitators. The Cavitation College is an Internet virtual resource tool for the cavitation research community, the cavitation industry, and the general public. Visit the Huffman Technology Website by pointing your browser to: http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm Update #3 - April 23, 1998 Fellow Bubbleheads, There is a bunch of new stuff, and a somewhat snappier, albiet buggy interface. I'll fix the bugs tonight. I had someone write, and tell me that they could not access the site at all. Has anyone else experienced difficulties? Please respond privately to save bandwith, thanks. I'd also like to comment on the Perkins/Pope configuration, but I've got to get back to the Bear. Maybe tonight. -Knuke Michael T. Huffman 1825 Nagle Place #210 Seattle, WA 98122 (206)325-2461 knuke aa.net http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 07:38:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA30411; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:34:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:34:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:27:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ACHbK2.0.vQ7.b5rFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17811 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, Call RS... they will tell you the actual mfg of device... THEN call them and get the curve. OR: Start with thermistor mfg... and ask for sample in the temp range you want. NASA has used YSI in the past. 1 800 765 4974. J On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Cornwall RO wrote: > On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, VCockeram wrote: > > All, > > I need some help to extropolate to higher than published specs for the > > Radio Shack thermistor, part number 271-110 that I used in the first > > runs of H2 + K. The resistance readings show a higher temperature > > reading that is covered by the spec sheet that comes with the thermistor. > > Here are the specs from 0 C to 110 C. > > Temp (C) Kilohms > > 0__________27.28 > > 5__________22.05 > > 10_________17.96 > > 15_________14.68 > > 20_________12.09 > > 25_________10.00 > > 30__________8.313 > > 35__________6.941 > > 40__________5.828 > > 45__________4.912 > > 50__________4.161 > > 55__________3.537 > > 60__________3.021 > > 65__________2.589 > > 70__________2.229 > > 75__________1.924 > > 80__________1.669 > > 85__________1.451 > > 90__________1.366 > > 95__________1.108 > > 100__________.9735 > > 105__________.8575 > > 110__________.7579 > > > > Get a book on the type of device you are using and find its law (the > formula with coeffs). I think the manuf. limit its range because they make > them in a batch and outside the range, tolerances slip. You're gonna have > to calibrate. If the device works at higher temps, you can use 'knowns' > such as the melting point of lead, or alloys of know comp. Then just plot > on probably log-log paper and get those coeffs! > > Probably not good to extrapolate into the unknown. You can use maths to > prove just about anything, ask a statician. Just remember, when you see > those IQ tests when they ask you to predict the next number, a > mathematician can prove that its any number you like. Heh, heh, heh. > Remi. > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 09:28:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08756; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08B7 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:13:31 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"duLu42.0.g82.fisFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17812 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince If you go much higher in temperature then 110, the thermister will probably die. It is a semiconductor, and they seldom go much over 150C or so. Hank > ---------- > From: VCockeram[SMTP:VCockeram aol.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 12:06 AM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode > > All, > I need some help to extropolate to higher than published specs for the > Radio Shack thermistor, part number 271-110 that I used in the first > runs of H2 + K. The resistance readings show a higher temperature > reading that is covered by the spec sheet that comes with the > thermistor. > Here are the specs from 0 C to 110 C. > Temp (C) Kilohms > 0__________27.28 > 5__________22.05 > 10_________17.96 > 15_________14.68 > 20_________12.09 > 25_________10.00 > 30__________8.313 > 35__________6.941 > 40__________5.828 > 45__________4.912 > 50__________4.161 > 55__________3.537 > 60__________3.021 > 65__________2.589 > 70__________2.229 > 75__________1.924 > 80__________1.669 > 85__________1.451 > 90__________1.366 > 95__________1.108 > 100__________.9735 > 105__________.8575 > 110__________.7579 > > OK, here ends the specifications given by Radio Shack. > Using the data given above, can some math wizard vortexian take the > resistance readings and extropilate down to at least .05 Kilohms? > I got some interesting temperature readings when running H2+K but > they are much higher than the specs cover, so all I have is about 150 > data points, all in kilohms, lots of them outside the thermister > specs. > I know, I should use the right one ect. but this was the first run and > it > was interesting and all I had was what I had. So if the temp specs can > be extropilated it would be nice because, at this moment, thats all I > got. > I have no way of running an actual known temperature calibration on > the thermistor. > I hope you vorts out there have Lotus 123. Thats what I am using to > plot the graphs of each run. They get saved in Lotus in > >filename.wk4< > file format. Sorry, thats all I have. They are small (5k or so) so I > will > attach > to the experiment posts. They have the raw data for each run and a > graph > of the data. > [Note to Bill Beatty: if this is ungood, pls let me know] > > A five hour exausting, interesting run tonight. I'm gonna crack a > Coors. > > Regards, > Vince Cockeram > Las Vegas Nevada > 702-254-2122 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 10:06:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17501; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:55:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Hero ...]'Hot Britainia' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"NssiO1.0.LH4.FHtFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17813 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > Jocelyn Bell, and more. JJ Thompson, Wilson, Heavyside, Watt ... forgive a stupid American if I misplaced a person-country combo.... > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 10:33:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA30126; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:31:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:31:55 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:30:59 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"UWlS72.0.YM7.9itFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17814 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-23 12:27:39 EDT, you write: > Vince > If you go much higher in temperature then 110, the thermister > will probably die. > Hank Well, It seems I went way over 110 C and it still works. I estimate it went to 200~300 C or so. Parts of the reactor tube were at red heat! After cool down it still was within 1 C of of my precision mercury thermometer. I am going to repeat the 4 hour 50 minute run exactly at first chance to make sure the data I got was good. If it checks out, I will post all the raw data here. It was a very interesting run but I want to repeat it to make sure I got it right. I am not interested at this time in measuring _exactly how hot_ this thing gets, only _comparing the difference_ in temperatures between an arc in vacuum, an arc in argon, an arc in H2 all with metallic K in the reactor tube. Scott, the vacuum pump makes real strange gurgling sounds when sucking hydrogen but not with argon. Its also much slower pulling vacuum with the H2. Because it's a really light gas? Yes, the pump exaust is vented safely away from sources of ignition. I also positioned a 4 inch 100 cfm muffin fan to cool the pump. It was getting too hot to touch when pulling hard. Now, with cooling it gets comfortably warm. I think thats better. Comments? Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vefas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 11:46:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10052; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353F8A48.58A interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:36:56 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hqtes2.0.wS2.UguFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17815 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > I also positioned a 4 inch > 100 cfm muffin fan to cool the pump. It was getting too hot to touch when > pulling hard. Now, with cooling it gets comfortably warm. I think thats > better. Comments? Sounds like a good move, Vince. Your pump is a refrigeration evacuation pump, right? If so, it probably was not designed for prolonged high-vac work - not enough flow-thru to carry the heat away. Your fan is probably an excellent addition. I wonder if you could improve the vac by running a trickle of cold water over the pump, although it sounds like your vac level is just fine. I like this test, Vince! If there is anything to this H-in-contact- with-K thing, you should pick it up. You MUST have tons more of H in the reactor that a hot W filament would give. If you're running at several hundred deg. C, maybe plain old thermocouples would be a better bet than a thermistor. But, you would need some good standard wire so you could use existing TC tables to avoid messy high temp. calibration. Waiting to see your results, Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 13:03:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27908; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <353D5751.4822 math.ucla.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:56:25 -0400 To: Barry Merriman , vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"I3FNr3.0.wp6.irvFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17816 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Larry Wharton wrote: >> >> Congratulations to Eugene Mallove and Jed Rothwell for finding and testing >> an OU device that actually seems to work. I don't see any holes in the >> measurements at this time. > > >Larry, is this your late April fools joke? :-) > >I would that it were so simple..... > >I'm inherently suspicious of an O/U device that "works", >simply churns water, AND was discovered ~20 years ago >but has not been recognized by the mainstream....but >I'm sure we'll know more in due course... > > >-- >Barry Merriman >Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math >Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program >email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Barry, This is not a late Arpil fool's joke. The time problem is a bit of a concern. Mabey it just took 20 years to get enough publicity to become noticed. This illustrates what a valuable service Mallove and Rothwell are performing. If they did not bring this thing out it may have just sat around for another 20 years at which time all the inventors and promoters of the technology would likely be dead or gone on to another project and the technology would be long forgotten. I might mention that as the air passes through the heat exchanger the velovity will increase proportional to the temperature. This is because the mass flux has to be conserved. Since the density is inversly proportional to the temperature by the ideal gas law, the velocity has to be proportional to the temperature. I would guess that the velocity is being measured on the hot side and the density is being taken from the cold side. This could give up to about a 10% error. Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 13:23:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22214; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:19:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:19:18 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: Jeff Kooistra - Marinov comments Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:24:11 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6ef5$c6a029b0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"qnFOR2.0._Q5.59wFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17817 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi wrote: >Motormen, > >If you want to increase the torque, could you somehow duplicate the loop >around the toroid - a bit like increasing the 'turns ratio'? Same current >flowing around several times into the hoop. Sort of stack 'em but make >sure that the current always enters in on one side on the stack. > Hi Remi, Yes, this works for the rotating toroid model. The model with the rotating ring needs more torque to overcome brush friction and this idea unfortunately adds brushes for every loop. Actually, I think a commutator design with many multi-turn half rings inside and the torus outside might be possible. This is too complex to explain without a diagram and I'm just speculating here so --- - The rotating toroid models are really easy to build but don't eliminate Lorentz explanations. If you build a motor, let us know about your results. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 13:48:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27284; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:43:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:43:26 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:48:33 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6ef9$2e1fccf0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"ATTnQ1.0.6g6.iVwFr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17818 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Wild speculation - could these liquid cavitation/vortex devices be acting as heat pumps. The Hilsch tube uses a gas vortex to provide a heat pump. The devices would work as advertised but Scott would not find excess heat if his calorimeter enclosed the whole system. Am I crazy? Obviously, but think about this anyway. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 14:28:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16602; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <003401bd6efc$c05e4760$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:13:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"04qC83.0.K34.S0xFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17819 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Wild speculation - could these liquid cavitation/vortex >devices be acting as heat pumps. The Hilsch tube uses >a gas vortex to provide a heat pump. The devices would >work as advertised but Scott would not find excess >heat if his calorimeter enclosed the whole system. >Am I crazy? Obviously, but think about this anyway. Isn't there some sort of theoretical limit to the quantity of 'apparent energy' that a heat pump could generate? Heat pumps can't give you an apparent COP of 7.0, otherwise, it seems to me, you'd be able to generate extra energy by using a potential difference between the 'hot side' and the 'cold side'. If you looked at one side of a heat pump and noticed that it was 1.5 times hotter than it should be for a given energy input, then the cold side should be about .75 times as hot as it was to begin with. This ratio 1.5 / .75 would yield 2.0. Wouldn't this be a limit? Am I crazy? Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 15:21:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26462; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:05:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:02:49 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: [off topic]'Hot Britainia' Resent-Message-ID: <"pY-eQ1.0.6T6.TixFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17820 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Remi - > Big government, bad news. Well said! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 15:48:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04248; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:40:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:44:12 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6f09$56462bb0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"iLuQ73.0.H21.sDyFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17821 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, The latest run results sound very exciting. Many electronics stores sell digital thermometers. The price of some units is under $100 and the temperature range of the thermocouple based units is at least to 300 degrees C. Some units are available that plug into a standard digital multimeter - essentially a thermometer adapter. >From Digikey catalog #971. Tel. 1-800-344-4539 or www.digikey.com TP-30-ND temperature adapter for K thermocouples- $125 use w/digital multimeter for -200 to +1000 degrees C range - TP-29-ND K type bead thermocouple - $15 teflon insulation limited to 500F but you should be able to remove enough at the bead to reach much higher temperatures. - Your experiment looks very promising. Keep up the great work! - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 17:30:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25345; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 03:21:38 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <353FD867.CF541979 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 03:10:15 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: IBM tex/latex viewer plugin was updated Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NOK8r1.0.tB6.CozFr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17822 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo, This plugin for Netscape browser was updated to Ver 2.0 last month. It could read most of scientific papers written on Tex and Latex format. Downloadable freely from http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/formula/techexplorer Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 17:46:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04892; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:44:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:44:23 -0700 Message-ID: <353FE041.6F77 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:43:45 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) References: <003401bd6efc$c05e4760$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"J0S8X3.0.LC1.c1-Fr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17823 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Craig Haynie wrote: > > Isn't there some sort of theoretical limit to the quantity of 'apparent > energy' that a heat pump could generate? Heat pumps can't give you an > apparent COP of 7.0, otherwise, it seems to me, you'd be able to generate > extra energy by using a potential difference between the 'hot side' and the > 'cold side'. Craig, it works like this. Suppose you have a hot heat sink at an ablolute temperature of T_H and a cold heat sink at an absolute temp of T_C. If you supply work, W, to the shaft of the BEST HEAT PUMP you can have, a Carnot engine, then the ratio of the heat, Q_H, that you can pump from the cold sink into the hot sink is Q_H/W and is given by: Q_H/W = T_H /(T_H - T_C) = 1/efficiency as a heat engine So, if we had a source of heat at 25 deg C = 298 deg K and wanted to pump heat from it to a hot sink at 50 deg C = 323 deg K, Q_H/W = 323 K/25 K = 12.92 with a perfect Carnot heat pump. This means that if we supply W joules of work, we can deliver 12.92 *W joules of heat from room temp to a 50 deg C sink. If we want to boil water at 100 deg C = 373 deg K, Q_H/W = 373 K/75 K = 4.97 If we want to get really warm heat at 225 dec C = 498 deg K Q_H/W = 498 K/200 K = 2.49 This is one reason a CF cell USING ELECTRICITY AS INPUT would not look too good if we could only run it at 100 deg C. AND IT ONLY HAD A COP OF 1.5 OR SO. Of course, we can't get too close to that 4.97 COP above so the CF cell would still be in the ballpark. If our heat supply for the heat pump dropped way below 25 deg C, then the boiling CF cell would look better and better. (Right, Jed?) With a CF COP of 100 or 1000, there's no contest. BTW, Craig, the Carnot heat engine efficiency is the reciprocal of the heat pump COP, so you would get zero net work with an engine and a heat pump working in parallel. If you other mechanical engineers out there don't agree with this, now is the time to speak up so I don't swing in the wind too long! It has been a looooooong time since I did any serious thermo calcs. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 23:35:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00722; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:33:44 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:31:15 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"KQRY8.0.CB.593Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17825 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Sorry I forgot the sig line on H2 Glow writup. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 23:36:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29933; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <985b42fb.354030f7 aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:28:06 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_893399286_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"oPrf6.0.YJ7.463Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17824 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_893399286_boundary Content-ID: <0_893399286 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII All, I posted yesterday the spec sheet that came with the Radio Shack thermister, part number 271-110. I hope you kept a copy. I am attaching a <10k file to this post of the 230 minute H2 Glow Discharge with K run on April 22, 1998. The file is a Lotus WK4 type file with a chart plot of time in minutes on the X axis and Kilohms on the Y axis. All the raw data is included in the Lotus spreadsheet that is part of the file. Now for some explainations of the time-line; Metallic K in the tube. (1) from 0 (start) to 60 minutes is arc on in vacuum and argon purge. the temperature rises and falls for the first 40 minutes and then levels out for minutes 50 to 60. This was the vacuum, argon fill, vacuum, argon fill. I'm going to give vacuum readings in (Oh God!!) inches of Hg cause thats what my guages read. Sorry to all the Torr people! The last argon fill was to 26.5 in Hg at 30 minutes. Vacuum begin at 40 minutes to 60 minutes. The arc color with vacuum is bright orange. The arc color with argon fill is bluish white. (2) At 60 minutes time-line H2 admitted to 1 psi and then pump down to 26.5 in Hg vacuum. Arc color immidiately changes to pale violet almost invisible. Looks cooler than before but it aint brothers. Vacuum pump makes real strange gurgling sounds and has trouble pulling down but it gets there within a minute and 30 seconds when tube valve is closed off. (3) Tube temperature falls from 60 to 65 minutes and then starts to go up like a rocket for the next 21 minutes. There is one valve between the H2 supply (at approx 1 psi) and the reactor tube (not counting the flow regulator valve). All during this 21 minute time the vacuum in the reactor tube is slowly moving towards a _higher_ vacuum, finally ending up at 27.0 in Hg at timeline 110 minutes. Tube showed a slight cooling trend from 85 to 110 minutes. At time 75 the tube wall was glowing at red heat. At time 98, the arc began to go unstable (flickering) and temperature began a very slow cooling trend. (4) At time 110 I pulled full vacuum for 30 seconds, H2 fill to 1 psi for 5 seconds, then pumped down again to 26.5 in Hg. A slight cooling for 2 minutes and again, the tube temperature climbed, this time much hotter than the previous fill cycle. Tube red hot again. Vacuum again going slowly towards a higher vacuum. This time the very hot temperatures continued without falling at all from 110 minutes to 170 minutes. Vacuum got stable when it reached 27.0 In Hg. Arc very pale violet and stable. Temperature showed no sign of falling, very stable. I'm getting thirsty. (5) At time 170 I evacuated the tube and filled with argon to 26.5 in Hg. In 20 minutes the temperature had fallen to a stable level (time 190) At time 192 I pulled full vacuum in the system and let the temperature stabilize. Nice and steady at time 200 to 206. (6) I shut down the arc at time 206, continuing to record thermister readings until time 230, at which time, I had a beer, and another. If you have Lotus 123 all this stuff is in the file 42298ch1.wk4 which is attached to this post, 9916 bytes. Lotus is neat in that with this file you can pick out small sections of the big plot and expand the scale. I did this, breaking it up into 5 different charts. I will _not_ upload all of them. Mr. Beatty would kill me for hogging server dasd. I did another run this evening, duplicating the previous run. Same thing folks. It was a shorter run (165 minutes) because I am beginning to be a believer and also because I got thirsty earlier. Only one thing I did differently, I preheated the tube with a low power arc in vacuum to about 80 C so the chart scale would be more detailed. Same results though. Somewhat higher temps though. The thermister ran out of ohms and went to 00.00 Not slagged because it recorded the cooldown cycle ok. Tomorrow...Grainger again for a Fluke 3A024 thermocouple meter and a Alnor IM734 900 C probe....sigh...there goes another overtime check. 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YCMAABIAAAACCgABAAgAAQAFciMAABIAAAACCwABAAgAAQAFhCMAAA4AAAACDAABAAgAAQAF kiMAAA4AAAACDQABAAgAAQAFoCMAAAgAAAACDgABAAgAAQAFqCMAAAYAAAABBwABABgAAAAV AAAABAEAAAAFLSQAABIAAAABCAABABcAAAAVAAAABR0kAAAQAAAAAQkAAQAYAAAAFQAAAAWu IwAAEAAAAAEKAAEAGAAAABUAAAAFByQAABYAAAABCwABABgAAAAVAAAABb4jAAAXAAAAAQwA AQAYAAAAFQAAAAXrIwAAHAAAAAENAAEAGAAAABUAAAAF1SMAABYAAAABDgABABgAAAAVAAAA BT8kAAAZAAAAGKRDTaVIZHLXAAABAAIAAAB8JAAAKAIAAA== --part0_893399286_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 23 23:48:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28868; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:44:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:44:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:25:47 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804240228_MC2-3ADB-A7A6 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"1wMQJ1.0.m27.gJ3Gr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17826 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex The conference schedule is crowded, with workshops every evening and a million things to go over, but I'll take a moment to address a few of the questions that have come up about the Perkins-Pope device. First, let me repeat that our work was a preliminary assessment. Not an experiment. The device arrived in Bow where Gene will begin serious testing when he returns. We reserve the right to change our minds and declare that the thing does not work after all. We intend to begin with air-flow calorimetry. If it works the way it did in Georgia we will try water flow calorimetry. This will take time and a lot of work, as the readers of this forum appreciate. Barry Merriman wrote: I'm inherently suspicious of an O/U device that "works", simply churns water, AND was discovered ~20 years ago but has not been recognized by the mainstream First, it does not "simply churn water." I am surprised that a scientist like Barry would make such an inaccurate statement. Blank rotors built by Griggs that simply churn water never produce excess heat. This device creates intense ultrasound, which creates sonoluminescence, which according to speculation by mainstream scientists like Putterman in mainstream scientific magazines like Sci. Am. may cause some form of conventional nuclear reactions. We believe it may cause some form of unconventional nuclear reaction. The Stringham ultrasound device produces remarkable CF effects, including day-long heat after death. Stringham gave an excellent lecture at this conference. The Perkins-Pope and Griggs devices are optimized to create intense ultrasound. Most machines are designed to avoid cavitation. To my knowledge, nobody has optimized a system to create intense ultrasound near metals like aluminum. There is a good reason: a pure aluminum rotor in a Perkins-Pope machine is destroyed after a half-hour of operation. There are easier ways to smash aluminium. Therefore this machine is unique and untested except by the 23 people who have filed patents. Second, the device was not discovered 20 years. As the list of patents in our paper shows, it was discovered 68 years ago. Anyone familiar with the history of cold fusion and the Griggs device will know why it has been ignored by the mainstream. Pope never made an effort to inform the public of the existence of the machine. He tried to market it to large companies in quiet, behind the scenes deals, the way CETI is trying to sell CF devices. The history of business shows this strategy seldom succeeds. See the telephone, the automobile, microcomputers, etc. Lawrence E. Wharton writes: I might mention that as the air passes through the heat exchanger the velocity will increase proportional to the temperature. This is because the mass flux has to be conserved. Since the density is inversely proportional to the temperature by the ideal gas law, the velocity has to be proportional to the temperature. I would guess that the velocity is being measured on the hot side and the density is being taken from the cold side. This could give up to about a 10% error. That is incorrect. Wharton's physics may be correct (although I doubt it), but I am sure there are no 10% errors in our methods. We used standard HVAC engineering techniques and look-up tables supplied by the HVAC instrument companies for this purpose. If the ideal gas law has to be accounted for, it must be built in to the table. These tables have been in widespread use since forced air heating in large buildings became popular, which dates back at least as far as my 1908 Sears catalog. It is inconceivable that a 10% error has been lurking in the tables for nearly a century. It would cause world-wide complaints by tenants and a fantastic waste of fuel. If the tables had a 10% error, then for the last 90 years electric furnaces would come up with a C.O.P. of 0.90 or 1.10 instead of 0.99. Someone would have noticed! Any HVAC engineer will tell that it is physically impossible for the C.O.P. to equal or exceed 1.0. As a practical matter, I think it is nearly inconceivable that HVAC engineers at three leading equipment manufacturers and three Atlanta consulting firms made gross errors ranging from 200% to 600%. I do not think the HVAC industry would survive a week if such errors were common. We would roast or freeze in our offices, shopping malls and hotels. (That happens often enough, I'll grant, but not because HVAC engineers cannot measure BTUs delivered from ducts. It happens because landlords will not replace worn out or inadequate equipment.) I suppose there is no error, but it will take careful testing to convince me. George Holz writes: Wild speculation - could these liquid cavitation/vortex devices be acting as heat pumps. The Hilsch tube uses a gas vortex to provide a heat pump . . . No, these devices cannot be heat pumps because the entire body of the device is always much hotter than the surroundings. Since a heat pump transfers heat from location A to location B, it causes a heat deficit at location A. The cooling coils inside of the refrigerator grow cold. Since every part of these machines are far hotter than the surroundings, the heat pump hypothesis violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. As a consulting HVAC engineer wrote in the Perkins-Pope device evaluation: "No other furnace power or energy sources were observed, nor was any heat transfer from the atmosphere (in the manner of a heat pump) observed." - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 02:21:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20198; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <354057AD.7CAF worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:13:17 -1000 From: Bill Perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: KeelyNet-L lists.kz, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vKb1T3.0.Wx4.EZ5Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17827 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: is anyone seeing this? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 03:37:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29737; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 03:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 03:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:40:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Hope the terms are right... Resent-Message-ID: <"5NwU72.0.WG7.Zh6Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17828 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Well, who is right? Answer, Frank Stenger: 24,425,970 joules Answer, John Logajan: 20,373,925 joules Question: >John Schnurer wrote: >> >> Dear Frank, >> >> Does than mean if I take 10 kg water and put it in a sealed >> contained and pull a partial vacuum to make it boil thet the pot will >> 'suck' 22,000,000 J from the pot? If not, then what.... presume temp is >> 25 C. John Logajan: At 12:06 AM 4/23/98, John Logajan wrote: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> > there are 533 moles of H20 in 10 Kg (10 liters, 10,000 cc). >> > it takes 40,700 joules to boil a mole of water at 100 C. >> >That gives 533*40,700 = 21,693,100 joules. >> >However, you said evaporate, so let us assume room temperature. >> >H2O gas has 33 joules/mole/degreeC molar heat capacity. >> >Therefore since room temperature is 25C and I just calculated >> >for 100C, I want to take back 75C worth of energy. >> >75*33*533 = 1,319,175 joules. >> >Therefore, 21,693,100 - 1,319.175 = 20,373,925 joules. >> >> Doesn't it require an extra 75 C worth of warming to evaporate from the >> lower temperature? > >Energy must be conserved. Steam will typically condense back to liquid >at 25C, but suppose the vapor is "diluted" in the air so that H2O >molecules seldom after encounter each other. Yet they are at room >temperature. > >So you really can have "cool" vapor. That's why if you have numbers >measured for boiling at 100C (as I had) you have to correct back to >the final temperature (or in the case of evaporation, the starting >and ending temperature being the same, around 25C.) Frank Stenger: At 9:55 PM 4/22/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >John Schnurer wrote: >> >> Dear Frank, >> >> Does than mean if I take 10 kg water and put it in a sealed >> contained and pull a partial vacuum to make it boil thet the pot will >> 'suck' 22,000,000 J from the pot? If not, then what.... presume temp is >> 25 C. > >The answer is yes, roughly, - I think. :-) > >John, forgive me for converting to English units, but my old steam >table book is in those units. >Let's see, 25 x 1.8 = 45, plus 32 = 77 deg F. > >K&K says that at 77 deg F, the vapor pressure of water is 0.4593 psia >or, 0.9352 in. Hg (23.754 mm Hg) absolute. The enthalpy of evaporation >at this condition is: >1050.4 BTU/lb X 1054.8 joules/BTU X 1 lb/0.4536 kg = 2,442,597 joules/kg >- significant figures be damned. > >So, if you put water in a pot and pull a vacuum on it and hold the >pressure at 23.754 mm Hg, and start with 25 deg C water, the water will >boil and remove 2,442,597 joules per kilogram of liquid evaporated at >that constant temperature. If you hold the pressure, but cut the heat >input to the water, the water will cool until it stops boiling. > Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 04:51:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13441; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:50:14 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <35407C6D.EEB71698 css.mot.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:50:05 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Discussion Group - Vortex Subject: New way to turn methane into fuel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dpzn43.0.xH3.rn7Gr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17829 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Reporting in the journal Science, they used a platinum catalyst to convert methane into methanol, which can be used to supplement gasoline. Roy Periana and colleagues at Catalytica Advanced Technologies Inc. in Mountain View, California, said their method had an efficiency of 72 percent - very high for such an process. -- John E. Steck Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 07:20:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04071; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:18:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wharton 128.183.200.226 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:16:56 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Larry Wharton Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"IenwN3.0.T_.Fz9Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17830 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Larry Wharton wrote: > > This illustrates what a valuable service Mallove and Rothwell are > performing. They perform a valuable service, in a Quixotic fashion. However, they are both a bit zealous, which I think impairs their judgement. Also, Mallove exhibits signs of flailing---he has recently put significant effort into reproducing Joe Champion's alchemy, and also touting it in his magazine, even though I made it clear to him in no uncertain terms that, (a) despite great effort, Champion has never been able to show me a reproducible experiment, and (b) Champion is the world's greatest exagerator/twister of facts, and EVERY thing he says should be taken with a grain of salt the size of Europa, or, just divide by a factor of about 10,000 as far as any numbers go. Given that Mallove took such an interest in Champion after that, I can only conclude he must be desparate. This is similarly supported by his popularizing of the "Cincinatti Group", who are pretty clearly nutty, unless you believe in science by divine dictation. (Also, according to Champion, the CG bought some of his alchemy books years bfore they went "big time", so who knows what that means.....) And so on...if there is anything real to CF, mallove needs to get out of bed with the flakes and cons. The fact that he has not been able to get anything out of "real" scientists, or at least "real" businessmen in the past suggests there is nothing to be had.... As a final note, I'd give much more credibility to results from Puthoff and Little than Mallove and Rothwell, based on their track records... -- Barry Merriman Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry Lawrence E. Wharton NASA/GSFC code 913 Greenbelt MD 20771 (301) 286-3486 Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 08:13:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14027; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:03:20 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Cincinnati Group Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804241107_MC2-3AE6-838D compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"gzUhb1.0.2R3.uiAGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17831 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Merriman and/or Wharton wrote: Given that Mallove took such an interest in Champion after that, I can only conclude he must be desperate. Since Merriman took a great interest in Champion, and devoted thousands of dollars and many weeks to investigating Champion's claims, I conclude that he is much more desperate than Mallove. Either that or they are both open minded scientists. This is similarly supported by his popularizing of the "Cincinnati Group", who are pretty clearly nutty, unless you believe in science by divine dictation. (Also, according to Champion, the CG bought some of his alchemy books years bfore they went "big time", so who knows what that means.....) Mallove and I do not believe in science by divine dictation, or science by slavish obedience to the textbooks. We believe in science by replication, and the Cincinnati Group results have been substantially replicated in four careful experiments in a top Italian nuclear laboratory, CISE. That was two blank runs and two remediation runs. The runs take 15 minutes, the analysis takes a month or two. This was reported during ICCF7. Th reduction of 12 to 20% was observed, using chemical and radiometric techniques. The religious beliefs of the Cincinnati Group works, and what they choose to read, has nothing to do with their scientific claims. In a debate about scientific claims, I think it is unwise to drag in statements about religion, lifestyle, marriage, health, diet, credit history or other irrelevant, prejudicial personal information. As a final note, I'd give much more credibility to results from Puthoff and Little than Mallove and Rothwell, based on their track records... In that case, you should pay Little to come to Bow and test the Kinetic Furnace, or you should buy him one for $12,000. Any legitimate scientist or engineer will be invited to check our work with his own instruments, or to devise any reasonable test himself, as long as he pays for transportation and new instruments. Little himself, who is at the conference, expresses complete confidence in our ability to measure the difference between 4,000 and 5 to 8,000 watts. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 08:45:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21205; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3540A42E.6CC2AD05 fc.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:39:42 -0500 From: John Fields Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net CC: KeelyNet-L lists.kz, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: test X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <354057AD.7CAF worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"eFfxg.0.7B5.GBBGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17832 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bill Perry wrote: > is anyone seeing this? -- Yes. -- John Fields, Austin Instruments, Inc. El Presidente Research, Design, and Development "I speak for the company" Austin, Republic of Texas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 10:52:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12624; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:41:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:39:46 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Hero ...]'Hot Britainia' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"LDv3u.0.A53.OxCGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17833 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, John Schnurer wrote: > > Jocelyn Bell, and more. > > JJ Thompson, Wilson, Heavyside, Watt ... forgive a stupid American if I > misplaced a person-country combo.... > It isn't regionalism, or some other stupid 'ism' that little people hide behind other people's achievements because they belong to a race or religion. It's probably to do with or island status, independent spirit, secular, humanistic culture. There was a golden time. Probably something to do with less government, less regulation and an education system which didn't dumb down kids into a conformist, illogical, neurotic mush. Just a guess. The decline and rise of British Engineering. Let's make sure we contribute to the new energy scene. I really don't see us becoming a nation of male stripper, songwriting fashion designers. Its something to do with our testosterone levels. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 10:54:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14271; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:50:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:48:59 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Jeff Kooistra - Marinov comments In-Reply-To: <01bd6ef5$c6a029b0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"60As13.0.uU3.-3DGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17834 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, George Holz wrote: > > > Hi Remi, > Yes, this works for the rotating toroid model. The model > with the rotating ring needs more torque to overcome > brush friction and this idea unfortunately adds brushes > for every loop. Actually, I think a commutator design with ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > many multi-turn half rings inside and the torus outside might > be possible. This is too complex to explain without a > diagram and I'm just speculating here so --- > - Excellent idea. > The rotating toroid models are really easy to build but > don't eliminate Lorentz explanations. I'll check the theory for what you mean. > If you build a motor, let us know about your results. of course. > > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems > Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 11:19:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02152; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:13:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:13:30 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:12:54 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Resent-Message-ID: <"f28lJ1.0.YX.9PDGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17835 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I take it Wharton has forwaded a message by Merriman here, but I'm not really sure... > Larry Wharton wrote: > > > This illustrates what a valuable service > > Mallove and Rothwell are performing. > > They perform a valuable service, in a > Quixotic fashion. However, they are both a bit > zealous, which I think impairs their > judgement. [snip] - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 12:52:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22986; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:50:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:50:01 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:43:32 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex Subject: terms.... NOW OIL!!! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Qejjd3.0.sc5.apEGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17836 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vo., Some more "school house questions" What is the yield in Joules of a 55 gal barrel of oil? ... sort of looking for a boiling of water VS burning of oil equivalency ... amount... Please and thanks for all the help so far. J From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 13:15:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05854; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:08:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6fbc$c83a9860$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"fewUx.0.OR1.j1FGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17837 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger wrote: >(snip great heat pump limits explanation) Thanks for the simplified theory, as an EE I never did get to take thermo, no loss till now. - Jed Rothwell wrote: >No, these devices cannot be heat pumps because the entire body of the device >is always much hotter than the surroundings. Since a heat pump transfers heat >from location A to location B, it causes a heat deficit at location A. The >cooling coils inside of the refrigerator grow cold. Since every part of these >machines are far hotter than the surroundings, the heat pump hypothesis >violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I considered this point before the original post. I don't believe the fact that the entire body of the device is much hotter than the surroundings prevents a heat pump effect from taking place. The heat pump would have to appear in series with the heat sink to ambient. Frank, do you have any comments? - Jed, I'm not saying that this is probable or that this device does not deserve study, just that this possibility should be carefully considered as part of the study. I think that you and Gene are doing a very important job in investigating OU devices. Your open minded pragmatic approach is refreshing and appropriate for the task. - I decided not to attend ICCF7 so that I could use the funds saved to purchase a general purpose 3D FEA program. Sorry to miss meeting the list members attending the conference, but I expect that IE will provide all the important information from the meeting. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 14:27:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06501; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:18:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:18:16 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:24:17 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: terms.... NOW OIL!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"FfbZq3.0.Qb1.N6GGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17838 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:43 PM 4/24/98, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vo., > > Some more "school house questions" > > What is the yield in Joules of a 55 gal barrel of oil? > > ... sort of looking for a boiling of water VS burning of oil >equivalency ... amount... > > > Please and thanks for all the help so far. > > > J The BTU content, chemical content, and density of oil varies depending on the source. A typical BTU equivalent is 5,800,000 BTU/barrel, or 138,095 BTU/gallon, according to The Energy Factbook, Congressional Research Service, Library of Congress. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 14:50:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09811; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:39:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:39:41 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:44:56 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd6fca$3920cdd0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"4xT9Z3.0.DP2.SQGGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17839 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, Opened your spreadsheet by importing it into Excel. The graph will be much more impressive with the actual temperature readings, but it's already amazing. - The increasing vacuum while running with H2 fill is not good evidence of Hydrino formation and diffusion out of the tube because H cleanup ( the formation of compounds removing H from the gaseous state ) is a common feature in hydrogen containing plasma devices. Noble gasses like argon generally cleanup much more slowly - 10X to 1000X typically. - The very impressive evidence here is the rise in temperature and the correspondence with the probable H partial pressure. - Can you open your driver device and find a point where you can measure DC power. The output of the power supply section would be appropriate. This would allow comparison of the maximum energy input for each of the gas fills and could provide excellent evidence for OU operation. - This might also be an appropriate time to carefully read over the claims in the BLP Australian patent. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 15:11:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24618; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35410CD7.4030 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:06:15 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: terms.... NOW OIL!!! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MxtYh3.0.V06.jqGGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17842 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey, John, note that the barrel in Horace's data is a 42 gallon barrel, not a 55 gallon drum! Horace Heffner wrote: > > A typical BTU equivalent is 5,800,000 BTU/barrel, or 138,095 BTU/gallon, > according to The Energy Factbook, Congressional Research Service, Library > of Congress. > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 15:13:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10924; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:45:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:45:14 -0700 Message-ID: <354107FB.21E3 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:45:31 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) References: <01bd6fbc$c83a9860$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6vVpW2.0.bg2.fVGGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17840 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: George Holz wrote: > (snip Jed's argument for device not being a heat pump) George says: > I considered this point before the original post. I don't believe the > fact that the entire body of the device is much hotter than the > surroundings prevents a heat pump effect from taking place. The > heat pump would have to appear in series with the heat sink to ambient. > Frank, do you have any comments? I think Jed is right, George. I'm very ignorant of the details of the past experiment setups, but if they were done with the proper thermal instrumentation, any heat pump "effect" should have shown up as a temperature anomally. If the "device" was surrounded by an insulated boundary, OR, A VERY GOOD BOUNDARY TEMPERATURE WAS MEASURED AT REPRESENTATIVE SPOTS (If you touch it anywhere and get burned, that's a pretty good indication!), then, if a known coolant power goes in and a known coolant comes out, and a known mechanical work goes in - then the test is pretty well defined. A bigger worry for me would be if a good measurement of MECHANICAL POWER going into the device was made. You could measure the electrical input to the motor if you want to charge the device with the motor inefficiency - not too fair to the suspect OU device but OK for a conservative estimate I would think. There could be a heat pump "engine" at work inside of a truly OU device - but it wouldn't matter if it were all inside of the "device boundary" that was known. AS Jed says, if the whole boundary is hotter than ambient, and the work and coolant is properly instrumented, I would think it would be a valid test. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 15:15:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23466; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com, frascone@flash.net From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:00:19 +0000 Message-ID: <19980424220017.AAA21486 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"dBmY.0.ak5.2mGGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17841 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Merriman and Wharton: >Larry Wharton wrote: >> >> This illustrates what a valuable service Mallove and Rothwell are >> performing. > >They perform a valuable service, in a Quixotic fashion. However, >they are both a bit zealous, which I think impairs their judgement. > I think the term to use instead of "zealous" is "convinced" in so far as the demonstrated reality of CF. Jed makes it clear that the results with the Perkins-Pope device so far are preliminary, but clearly indicative of a positive lead, one that will be pursued straightaway. This hardly seems Quixotic since the persuasive, if not compelling reports of nuclear reactions at low energies published by people of very impressive standing cannot be seen as tilting at windmills. If such reactions can occur in metal hydrides, then where else might they be occurring? >Also, Mallove exhibits signs of flailing---he has recently put >significant effort into reproducing Joe Champion's alchemy, I think Mallove is exhibiting symptoms of an open mind and healthy skepticism, as opposed to judge and jury. I have read that Dr. Bockris did find some traces of Au in a sample provided by Champion, as did Merriman. Champion may be fooling himself, but I cannot assess mental health because he tries something that is unbased in accepted theory (or any theory, as far as I know). It is to stray into the ad hominem category of argument to state that exploring or attempting to verify someone else's extravagant or wierd claim is flailing. Certainly, history of science tell us it is an unscientific attitude to take. Who is likely to believe that something as big as a continent could move? A real scientist. > >Given that Mallove took such an interest in Champion after that, >I can only conclude he must be desparate. I can only conclude this means that Merriman believes he has wasted his time and money in investigating Champion's work. If this is so, I wish he would at least justify effort spend with some sort of report, or is he in fear for his reputation? I imagine he has taken some heat for even looking, already. > This is similarly >supported by his popularizing of the "Cincinatti Group", >From my armchair, the jury is still out on that one. Mallove finds people who are convinced that they have something of value to contribute and does as much investigation as he can before giving them space in Infinite Energy, so it is speculative. I have no problem with that. I know that the majority of things that appear to be anomalous can be explained by experimental or interpretive errors, but anomalies such as sonoluminescence resist reduction to textbook science after many decades of effort by some of the best minds. So, who is to say that a class of phenomena may have been discovered and ignored due to apathy and arrogance on the part of 'scientists?' >And so on...if there is anything real to CF, mallove needs to >get out of bed with the flakes and cons. The fact that he >has not been able to get anything out of "real" scientists, >or at least "real" businessmen in the past suggests there is >nothing to be had.... Is Randall Mills not a "real" scientist? He distances himself from the term "cold fusion" because Fleischman and Pons were so visciously attacked, IMO. To be willing to potentially sacrifice one's reputation and career in an all-out effort to bring attention where one believes it out to be could be a mistake, but deserves recognition for good intent at the very least. A lot of people at ICCF7 are likely to believe it deserves a lot more than that. Are they not "real" scientists? > >As a final note, I'd give much more credibility to results >from Puthoff and Little than Mallove and Rothwell, based on their >track records... I admire Earthtech's work, their goals and methods. But is it not true that Puthoff's long-term work in the area of psychic phenomena serves as invalidation for any work he does by your criteria? Seems even worse than being inspired by God. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 15:35:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19794; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:33:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:33:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: WATER in terms of Oil In-Reply-To: <35410CD7.4030 interlaced.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"t0ukS1.0.Cr4.3DHGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17843 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: SO: I would have to evaporate 2630 kg of water to get the thermal differnetial equivalent of one barell of oil.... Right? On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Francis J. Stenger wrote: > Hey, John, note that the barrel in Horace's data is a 42 gallon barrel, > not a 55 gallon drum! > > Horace Heffner wrote: > > > > A typical BTU equivalent is 5,800,000 BTU/barrel, or 138,095 BTU/gallon, > > according to The Energy Factbook, Congressional Research Service, Library > > of Congress. > > > > Regards, > > > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 17:25:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13146; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:28:32 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil Resent-Message-ID: <"t064Q3.0.GD3.bpIGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17844 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:27 PM 4/24/98, John Schnurer wrote: > SO: I would have to evaporate 2630 kg of water to get the >thermal differnetial equivalent of one barell of oil.... > > Right? (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,443,000 joules/kg-H2O (at 25 C)) = 2505 kg-H2O/bbl-oil That's a standard 48 gallon barrel evaporated at 25 C, you wanted, right? Good heads up on that 48 gallon standard barrel Frank! Oil is generally not sold or designated by 55 gal drum units. Or if you want to just boil H2O at 100 C: (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,169,300 joules/kg-H2O (at 100 C)) = 2820 kg-H2O/bbl-oil I don't seem to get the same answer. A man with one watch always knows what time it is. A man with 2 is never quite sure ... Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 17:41:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA14077; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35412F3B.73D9 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:32:59 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"XYwPY.0.tR3.E-IGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17845 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Schnurer wrote: > > SO: I would have to evaporate 2630 kg of water to get the > thermal differnetial equivalent of one barell of oil.... > > Right? > Using Horace (if he doesn't mind! :-)): 1 kg water evaporated at 25 deg C = 1/0.4536 = 2.205 lb water evaporated at 77 deg F = (2.205 lb)*(1050.4 BTU/lb) = 2316 BTU per kg evaporated. So, 5,800,000 BTU per 42 gal bar / 2316 BTU per kg evaporated = 2504 kg water evaporated to equal 42 gal oil burned. = 3279 kg water evaporated to equal 55 gal oil burned. At 100 deg C: (2.205 lb)*(970.3 BTU/lb) = 2140 BTU per kg evaporated = 2710 kg water evaporated to equal 42 gal oil burned = 3549 kg water evaporated to equal 55 gal oil burned If this were target shooting, John, we seem to have a hit cluster around the right answer. (My ref., Horace and Keenan & Keyes) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 18:09:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17046; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35413412.3B9C interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:53:38 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"t3oal3.0.GA4.bHJGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17846 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > > At 6:27 PM 4/24/98, John Schnurer wrote: > > SO: I would have to evaporate 2630 kg of water to get the > >thermal differnetial equivalent of one barell of oil.... > > > > Right? > > (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,443,000 joules/kg-H2O (at 25 C)) = > > 2505 kg-H2O/bbl-oil > > That's a standard 48 gallon barrel evaporated at 25 C, you wanted, right? Hmmmmm, 5,800,000/138,095 = 42 gal barrel used in Horace's data. OK, the average of 42 and 55 is 48.5. I vote we round off to 50 gal standard barrels - one for each of the 50 states. As a patriotic move, we could demand that all domestic oil be sold in 50 gal barrels. ||||||| / \ O| O O |O <----- Stenger's head | O | = 1 std. gallon \ \_/ / \___/ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 22:01:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15893; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:59:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:59:36 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <35416DB4.1EB2 math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:59:32 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Cincinnati Group References: <199804241107_MC2-3AE6-838D compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6Ofr21.0.Eu3.tsMGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17847 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > > As a final note, I'd give much more credibility to results > from Puthoff and Little than Mallove and Rothwell, based on > their track records... > > In that case, you should pay Little to come to Bow and > test the Kinetic Furnace, Good point---will Little be invited to do so? I think it would be good. By the way---no disrespect intended to Mallove; he's fully qualified as an engineer to do such tests, and to do just about anything else an engineer can do....no doubt a better engineer than I, by formal training and by experience. Indeed, I like Gene, but I think he's crossed the rubicon, and got himself into a corner where he needs these things to be real, and this might empair his judgement (at least in terms of his public pronouncements, if not his ultimate technical judgements). In contrast, Little and Puthoff want these things to work, but they are more in the possition of a wealthy party what to pursue, and so the focus on their work is on the minimization of erroneous conclusions (which would no doubt jepardize their project!). But, by all means, I'm glad you folks are going to test this. And Jed also deserves kudos (is that the right word) because, all other contentions aside, he has put his time and money where his mouth is, which very few folks do. -- Barry Merriman Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 22:19:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18094; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:17:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:17:25 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <354171E2.2BEB math.ucla.edu> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:17:22 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint (Mallove, Rothwell) References: <19980424220017.AAA21486 Default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"dIns_2.0.ZQ4.b7NGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17848 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > > I can only conclude this means that Merriman believes he has wasted his time > and money in investigating Champion's work. Not wasted, but people often mistake my motives. I investigate Champions work in order to figure out what is really going on---it would be a blast if he could really make gold, but I have always considered that to be an incredible longshot, say, 1 million to one. I have no need for his alchemy to be real, or imaginary. The fun is in the finding out what is going on, why some people seem to believe him, etc, and my involvement with it has certainly been the most bizarre experience in my life. If this is so, I wish he would > at least justify effort spend with some sort of report, I will, but the case is not closed. It has been very difficult to investigate JC from a strictly scientific standpoint, because he simply cannot provide a reproducible "positive" experiment. So, I need to check out a few more tangents before I can really summarize the investigation fairly. > or is he in fear for his reputation? > I imagine he has taken some heat for even looking, already. Oh, people have always known I'm crazy. So, at this point it just amuses them. -- Barry Merriman Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 23:24:48 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04180; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:22:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:22:59 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:30:15 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil Resent-Message-ID: <"jATgs3.0.B11.25OGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17849 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Horace Heffner wrote: >> >> At 6:27 PM 4/24/98, John Schnurer wrote: >> > SO: I would have to evaporate 2630 kg of water to get the >> >thermal differnetial equivalent of one barell of oil.... >> > >> > Right? >> >> (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,443,000 joules/kg-H2O (at 25 C)) = >> >> 2505 kg-H2O/bbl-oil >> >> That's a standard 48 gallon barrel evaporated at 25 C, you wanted, right? > >Hmmmmm, 5,800,000/138,095 = 42 gal barrel used in Horace's data. >OK, the average of 42 and 55 is 48.5. I vote we round off to 50 gal >standard barrels - one for each of the 50 states. As a patriotic move, >we could demand that all domestic oil be sold in 50 gal barrels. > > ||||||| > / \ > O| O O |O <----- Stenger's head > | O | = 1 std. gallon > \ \_/ / > \___/ > >Frank Stenger Good grief! Don't lsten to me. I'm a mess and not really paying attention, but a good random number generator I could still be. There should be a law aginst driving a terminal when mind is somewhere else. My son decided to go to Carnegie Mellon today, majoring in computer science, maybe a minor in robotics. Hopefully the college crazies will depart soon. At least the BTU/bbl and BTU/gal are correct. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 23:27:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20684; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:30:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil Resent-Message-ID: <"E8pcg3.0.535.k6OGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17850 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:32 PM 4/24/98, Francis J. Stenger wrote: >John Schnurer wrote: >> >> SO: I would have to evaporate 2630 kg of water to get the >> thermal differnetial equivalent of one barell of oil.... >> >> Right? >> > >Using Horace (if he doesn't mind! :-)): > > 1 kg water evaporated at 25 deg C > = 1/0.4536 = 2.205 lb water evaporated at 77 deg F > = (2.205 lb)*(1050.4 BTU/lb) = 2316 BTU per kg evaporated. > >So, 5,800,000 BTU per 42 gal bar / 2316 BTU per kg evaporated > > = 2504 kg water evaporated to equal 42 gal oil burned. > = 3279 kg water evaporated to equal 55 gal oil burned. > >At 100 deg C: > (2.205 lb)*(970.3 BTU/lb) = 2140 BTU per kg evaporated > = 2710 kg water evaporated to equal 42 gal oil burned > = 3549 kg water evaporated to equal 55 gal oil burned > >If this were target shooting, John, we seem to have a hit cluster >around the right answer. (My ref., Horace and Keenan & Keyes) (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,443,000 joules/kg-H2O (at 25 C)) = 2505 kg-H2O/bbl-oil So we agree on this one to the last significant digit! That's a standard 42 gallon barrel evaporated at 25 C, you wanted, right? Good heads up on that 42 gallon standard barrel Frank! Oil is generally not sold or designated by 55 gal drum units, or 48 gal units either. Maybe 48 Stengallons though. Or if you want to just boil H2O at 100 C: (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,169,300 joules/kg-H2O (at 100 C)) = 2820 kg-H2O/bbl-oil Above, I think I picked 2,169,300 joules/kg-H2O (at 100 C) using John Logajan as a reference, so I'll blame him! 8^) Fred Sparber comes up with rough estimate of 1100*1051*2.2 ~= ? = 2543000 J/kg at 100 C. Using 40,700 J/mol at 100 C we get 2262 J/ml = 2262 J/g = 2262000 J/kg. Frank uses 970.3 BTU/lb, or (970.3 BTU/lb-H2O at 100 C)(1055 J/BTU)(2.2 lb/kg) = 2256798 J/kg Since my number is not compensated for density change of water at 100 C, Frank's looks like the right number to me, i.e. 2256798 J/kg. I should have written: (5,800,000 BTU/bbl-oil) (1055 J/BTU)/(2,256,798joules/kg-H2O (at 100 C)) = 2711 kg-H2O/bbl-oil which compares favorably with Frank's 2710 kg-H2O/bbl-oil. We're shooting in to smaller clusters Frank. 8^) Bleary eyed and mumbling to himself, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Fri Apr 24 23:29:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05374; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:25:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:25:58 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:33:04 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: [off topic] ou mystery? Resent-Message-ID: <"A-buE3.0.tJ1.r7OGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17851 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: How do Texans manage to wear ten gallon hats wih only one gallon heads? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 02:16:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00438; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:14:52 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <67dea7a6.3541a825 aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:08:51 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"YxFPA1.0.l6.BcQGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17852 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, It's 1 am. This is nuts folks. Preliminary results of tonights run with the Fluke thermocouple meter...... The highest temperature in vacuum was 110.1 C The highest temperature with argon at 26.5 in Hg was 111.5 The highest temperature with H2 at 24.5 in Hg was.....243.7..... when at that time (197 minutes into the run)...the tube cracked. Tube vacuum started losing vacuum. I'm trying to adjust vacuum, H2 fill ect when I saw the crack. I immediatly shut power and filled with argon. No K spilled but will deal with the busted tube in the morning. Tube is sitting in a sand filled metal box in the backyard until tomorrow morning. I will post run details and a chart as soon as recover from the shock at seeing the temperature take off like a rocket. No beer tonight, just bed. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 02:32:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19408; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:29:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:29:08 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3541ACE0.5491 math.ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:29:04 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"f2sLH1.0.Al4.apQGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17853 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: --- I admire Earthtech's work, their goals and methods. But is it not true that Puthoff's long-term work in the area of psychic phenomena serves as invalidation for any work he does by your criteria? Seems even worse than being inspired by God. --- No, not true. I'd don't accept as demonstrated the existence of "psychic phenomena" such as remote viewing, due to the difficulty so far in defining clean and reproducible experiments. But, I respect Puthoff's efforts to apply the methods of physics/science to the question. I just think its a particularly thorny issue to tackle scientifically, because it revolves so much around the human element. As for the fact that puthoff is convinced of the reality, well, he had a great deal of experience with it, much of it classified, and so I must acknowledge that I simply don't have access to all the data he has seen---thus I cut him slack. Maybe it would be compelling to the reasonable person, though my standard for conviction are very high (I doubt I would "believe" anything without widespread independent repeatability, though again in Puthoff' defense, since the ultimate protocols were classified, he could not really call for their widespread replication of what he had experienced. -- Barry Merriman Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 05:48:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27915; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:45:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3541DB03.5D86 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:45:55 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: <67dea7a6.3541a825 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UMfDi1.0.0q6.whTGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17854 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > I will post run details and a chart as soon as recover from the shock > at seeing the temperature take off like a rocket. Wow, Vince! I lost track of your instrumentation for electric power input to the tube. Is such info available? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 07:09:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01885; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:07:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:07:53 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: ICCF7 preprint Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:07:18 +0000 Message-ID: <19980425140714.AAB6826 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"GPIr43.0.NT.uuUGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17856 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:29 AM 4/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >Ed Wall wrote: > >--- >I admire Earthtech's work, their goals and methods. >But is it not true that >Puthoff's long-term work in the area of psychic phenomena serves as >invalidation for any work he does by your criteria? >Seems even worse than being inspired by God. >--- Barry wrote: > >No, not true. I'd don't accept as demonstrated the existence >of "psychic phenomena" such as remote viewing, due to the >difficulty so far in defining clean and reproducible >experiments. But, I respect Puthoff's efforts to apply >the methods of physics/science to the question. I just think >its a particularly thorny issue to tackle scientifically, >because it revolves so much around the human element. As for >the fact that puthoff is convinced of the reality, well, he >had a great deal of experience with it, much of it classified, >and so I must acknowledge that I simply don't have access to all >the data he has seen---thus I cut him slack. Well, is there any slack left for the fact that you cannot have seen through the eyes of Bush & Eagleton (visited them yet?), Mills, Miles, Fleischman, Pons, McKubre, Miley, Preparata, Storms & Talcott, S.R. & T.A. Chubb, etc.? I surmise that you respect the efforts of such qualified individuals. The human element is in every issue. Have you ever considered the possibility that the reality of the situation is that a human brain is submerged in a jar of saline solution, being fed nutrients and oxygen by technologically advanced aliens, stimulated by electrodes so as to stimulate the experience of events correlating with data received by probes somehow measuring intent of will? Maybe that is you. Maybe all you think is happening is really nerve impulses in some grey matter in a jar. How can you disprove this hypothesis? You cannot, but you laugh out loud at such a ridiculous proposition. The point being that human experience, which scientists pride themselves from removing from their data cannot be removed. Two people cannot experience the exact same thing, simply because they are different people. Experience is a matter of the stimulus and the stimulated. Doubts about the claims of others can always be raised (although in the brain-in-a-jar case for doubt, just mentioned, they would not be mentioned, except maybe by a Texan). This is not so much a problem for science, except where paradigms are attacked, because scientists are personally invested in paradigms and rarely realize the extent to which they are threatened. No one is completely objective, IMO, and I doubt that such a state is possible, except in the ideal, as a standard to be pursued. We have to go with what the best efforts lead us to conclude. We may disagree with what others reasonably find convincing and so go off in widely diverging paths. We cannot allow ridicule or fear to steer us (but forget about the brain the jar for now). >Maybe it would be compelling to the reasonable >person, though my standard for conviction are very high (I doubt >I would "believe" anything without widespread independent >repeatability, though again in Puthoff' defense, since the >ultimate protocols were classified, he could not really call >for their widespread replication of what he had experienced. Barry, I admire your efforts and hesitate to comment (sorry, too late) since I am not sharing in the spirit of Vortex and doing actual experimentation, like yourself. I just hate to see Gene Mallove ridiculed because I admire his efforts as well. He is a scientific investigator, like yourself, but his laboratory includes a whole lot of the human element and if he runs up a blind alley, it is there for everyone to see. He and Jed Rothwell provide a very valuable service (to me, at the very least) because of the attitude and intelligence and energy they take to work. You are certainly entitled to doubt their objectivity as I am entitled to think they never had any (don't you dare take this out of context!), strictly speaking. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 07:10:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01855; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:07:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:07:49 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [off topic] ou mystery? Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:07:15 +0000 Message-ID: <19980425140714.AAA6826 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"K_f2C2.0.vS.quUGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17855 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >How do Texans manage to wear ten gallon hats wih only one gallon heads? > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > We think big thoughts, like cold fusion. Of course, the hat does slip to the chin occasionally, but the top of the belt buckle will stop it there. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 08:07:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21564; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:58:55 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <3541F786.EB28B62C verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:47:34 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Tesla and OU stuff on Wired News today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"uij7s1.0.sG5.3lVGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17857 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/11898.html Found at http://www.wired.com/news/ The Boys and Their Tesla Toys 12:04 pm The memory of Nikola Tesla is still inexorably bound to the fringes of scientific research. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 08:42:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24428; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:37:55 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"sbvc-2.0.bz5.4FWGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17858 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Water way to carry on. Micturating with laughter. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 09:45:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17937; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:43:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:43:29 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:30:26 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"yWS_D.0.BO4.nAXGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17859 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, Good news. The tube did not crack. The O-Ring seal failed. Melted. Reassembled tube with a teflon O-Ring. No K in tube. now will run new test series with Fluke-51 K type thermocouple, first, arc in vacuum, second, arc in argon and then arc in H2 to establish a new baseline temperature plot for each condition. After all these runs are plotted, I will again load a slug of K in the tube and run a complete series as above. I am entering the data from last nights run into the Lotus spreadsheet now. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 09:58:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01701; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:01:27 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"fFXI82.0.VQ.XMXGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17860 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:30 PM 4/25/98, VCockeram wrote: >All, >Good news. The tube did not crack. The O-Ring seal failed. Melted. >Reassembled tube with a teflon O-Ring. No K in tube. now will run >new test series with Fluke-51 K type thermocouple, first, arc in vacuum, >second, arc in argon and then arc in H2 to establish a new baseline >temperature plot for each condition. >After all these runs are plotted, I will again load a slug of K in the tube >and run a complete series as above. >I am entering the data from last nights run into the Lotus spreadsheet now. > >Regards, >Vince Cockeram >Las Vegas Nevada >702-254-2122 When you post the data could you cut and paste the data into an email for those of us unable to read your attachments? Thanks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 10:19:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03627; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:10:15 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <5691c866.3542137c aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:46:51 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"1DnLo1.0.bu.rZXGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17861 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-25 08:46:35 EDT, you write: > I lost track of your instrumentation for electric power > input to the tube. Is such info available? > Frank Stenger Frank, Here are the numbers: High Voltage Primary Resistance is 9.65 ohms High Voltage Secondary Resistance is 19,680 ohms Frequency is 14,000 Hz Voltage measured across the High Voltage Primary is 184.0 vac measured with a Fluke 8060 A/AA True RMS Multimeter with the arc on. . Should I insert a say, 1 ohm resistor in the primary feed and measure voltage drop across it? Would this help with computing input power? Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 10:37:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25126; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:35:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:35:56 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:43:18 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: [off topic] Bain in jar Resent-Message-ID: <"llPrH2.0.W86.xxXGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17863 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 6:07 AM 4/25/98, Ed Wall wrote: [snip] > Have you ever considered the possibility >that the reality of the situation is that a human brain is submerged in a >jar of saline solution, being fed nutrients and oxygen by technologically >advanced aliens Personally, I think it is much more likely the whole universe is a simulation on a big computer. At least that could explain quantum mechanics in part, as it is due to reaching the limits of the simulation granularity. Would be handy to be able to drop into diagnostic mode and modify memory at will, wouldn't it? [snip] > I just hate to see Gene Mallove ridiculed because I admire >his efforts as well. He is a scientific investigator, like yourself, but >his laboratory includes a whole lot of the human element and if he runs up a >blind alley, it is there for everyone to see. He and Jed Rothwell provide a >very valuable service (to me, at the very least) because of the attitude and >intelligence and energy they take to work. Amen. The Edisonian search process is not science per se, so scientific values should not be applied. Science has its main place after the discovery/creation process. To solve difficult problems, like the energy problem, all that is required is faith and optimism, and widely diverse searching for a solution. It is not unreasonable to have faith that scientists and others who go out into the field and turn over rocks are eventually going to find new things. Our strength is in our diversity of choices of where to look for the new things. Hats off to Gene and Jed and Barry and everyone else busy turning over the rocks. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 10:39:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24934; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:35:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:35:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: paddington.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:35:03 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi paddington To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [on topic] ou mystery? In-Reply-To: <19980425140714.AAA6826 Default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"XOumU3.0.O56.DxXGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17862 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > >How do Texans manage to wear ten gallon hats wih only one gallon heads? How do east coast effetes manage to wear trousers when their wives rummage through their closets - and wear them? Heh, Heh, Heh. I guess their wives must discipline them so they become 'weal' men. Naughty but nice. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 11:26:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA31404; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:21:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:21:53 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <002d01bd7076$6f1c0100$708cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Hoop Tee Doo Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:16:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Qi0f-.0.Pg7.1dYGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17864 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: A pair of hoops made using a few feet of insulated solid-conductor 14 gauge electrical wire and 6 volt lantern batteries makes for a fun experiment for seeing the attraction-repulsion between the hoops when electrical currents a passed through them, especially if they are suspended from the ceiling with string. For the more adventuresome, pulsing the currents in each loop using integrated circuit "clock pulses" driving a power "MOSFET" is interesting when different clock rates are used on the hoops. Radio Shack has a 3 amp MOSFET for about $2.00 and the I.C.'s for making the pulsers. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 12:17:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15012; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <354235D4.7BE0 interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:13:24 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: <5691c866.3542137c aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vPr7q3.0.Ug3.cOZGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17865 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > Here are the numbers: > High Voltage Primary Resistance is 9.65 ohms > High Voltage Secondary Resistance is 19,680 ohms > Frequency is 14,000 Hz > Voltage measured across the High Voltage Primary is 184.0 vac > measured with a Fluke 8060 A/AA True RMS Multimeter with the arc on. > . > Should I insert a say, 1 ohm resistor in the primary feed and measure > voltage drop across it? Would this help with computing input power? That might work well, Vince. I would guess that your tube load is very nonlinear but still, resistive. So, hopefully, there is little phase shift between secondary voltage and secondary current. If you could use a probe or divider to measure secondary RMS volts, the volts X resistor drop might give a good power estimate. (What do you think, Scott?) Hey, EE's out there, if you have non-sinusoidal RMS voltage and non-sinusoidal RMS current, does the product equal true power if there is zero phase shift?? At 14 kHz, I would try to use a non-inductive resistor, - carbon composition?? The change in tube current vs. type of fill gas and/or the wall temperature might prove interesting. In other words, does the H2 fill cause a higher power draw for some reason? Do you have a scope, Vince, to check for volt-current phasing? Very neat test, Vince! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 12:39:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16943; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35423AB0.EB324637 darknet.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:34:08 -0400 From: Steve Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com Subject: Faraday cage question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aBiPP.0.Q84.rjZGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17866 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi all, I have a question about farady cages.. I'm setting up a lab in my basement, but my computer is located right above it, and there is another computer on the other side of the wall (wooden ceiling/floor, cement wall. Not sure if that would make any difference).. I need a way to isolate the lab from the rest of the building, and I was wondering if a faraday cage would do this.. All the information I've seen so far on EM shielding has been focused on shielding from outside EM fields. I'm hoping it will work both ways, but I'm not sure.. can anyone help? thanks.. -Steve -- darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 12:40:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09579; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:38:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:38:53 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:37:04 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Cc: Verdian aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_893533024_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"LbGv63.0.QL2.BlZGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17867 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_893533024_boundary Content-ID: <0_893533024 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII All, Attached 10k file is Lotus 123 WK4 format spreadsheet with chart of H2 with K run on 04-24-98. (1) Pumped full vacuum with arc at full power, metallic K in the tube [a] Strange temperature fluctuations under vacuum. Stuff in tube left over from previous 5 runs? The same K has been used for the 5 runs and tube has remained sealed under 1 psi argon between runs. Ran this stage for 90 minutes. Each major division on the time axis is 10 minutes. (2) Minutes 90 to 120 were argon fill at indicated vacuum of 26.5 (3) Full vacuum pumped (27.0 indicated) at minute 120 to 150. (4) H2 fill at minute 150 to end of run at minute 210. [a] At minute 197 the reactor vacuum guage indicated a leak. Vacuum began dropping towards 1 atm and the reactor temperature began to fall. At first I wasn't sure what was going on and tried juggeling vacuum and H2 fill valves to steady things out. Reactor temperature was 243.7 C when this anomaly showed up. Ten minutes later, with the tube temperature down to 227.5, I saw what looked like a crack in the tube. Hmm. molten K at 227 C....this was not good. I shut power and filled the system with argon. When the tube cooled I disconnected it from the vacuum / gas system and put it in the sand box...gently...then moved the sand box out in the back yard. This morning (saturday) I opened the tube up wearing heavy leather welders gloves and with the open end of the tube pointed away from me, dribbled some hydrogen monoxide into it. Very minor sizzles and a nice pale small hydrogen flame out the tube end. No crack in the tube. The neoprene O-Ring had failed. Kind of melted, well no, melted big time actually. The hydrogen monoxide really cleans all the K gook out of the tube very well. Looks brand new again. The tube has been resealed, no K, this time with a teflon O-Ring in preparation for arc in vacuum/Ar/H2 with the Fluke thermocouple meter. Its 12:30 pacific time now and the system has been sucked down for 4 hours now so I'm about ready to start the arc in vacuum run. Anybody have any questions, drop a dime and give me a call. I don't have any problem yakking during a run. This is great fun. 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<35423AB0.EB324637 darknet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wlsp7.0.4n4.4_ZGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17868 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > (wooden ceiling/floor, cement wall. Not sure if that would make any > difference).. Er.. 3 of the walls are cement, (other is wood/drywall.. still gotta build that one) as is the floor.. the ceiling, which is the floor of my computer room, is wood.. after I wrote the email I realized it sounded a bit confusing, even if it has no relevance to the question... ttyl -Steve -- darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 13:02:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21038; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in jar Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:58:41 +0000 Message-ID: <19980425195839.AAA26004 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"WfHyr3.0.e85.-3aGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17869 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: >The Edisonian search process is not science per se, so scientific >values should not be applied. Science has its main place after the >discovery/creation process. To solve difficult problems, like the energy >problem, all that is required is faith and optimism, and widely diverse and intelligent (which is where theory comes in) >searching for a solution. It is not unreasonable to have faith that >scientists and others who go out into the field and turn over rocks are >eventually going to find new things. Our strength is in our diversity of >choices of where to look for the new things. > BTW, I liked the computer simulation explanation. I think I hear Michael Talbot (The Holographic Universe) chuckling. I agree it is reasonable to have such expectations (faith), but anything to reduce the randomness of the search is needed. What seems to work well is a heuristic approach. The number of permutations possible in any fairly simple procedure is mind boggling (one likely explanation for the low replication rates in 'fringe' science). The problem is that the wonderful kernel of subjectivity, the ego, is also the great tyrant of creation, demanding conformity to its theories, rapidly leading to a tunnel vision in adherents to social order based on personalities instead of principles. Principles can be demonstrably overturned. Personalities belong to people who have to die before they can be safely ignored. How many major improvements to engine performance have been found by empirically-driven mechanics experimenting? Well, I don't think the Big 3 are likely to publicize how much they depend on racing car enthusiasts for their ideas. IE #18 has some rather amazing stuff to illustrate this point. The cover story on "Augmented Combustion" is about a technology whose inception predated the Fleischman and Pons announcement by a few years. Certainly, to myself, the evidence of nuclear reactions is very intriguing. It is robust. It consists of a Li based fuel additive that provides quite palpable improvements in efficiency. More significant is the radiation from flame tests conducted by William D. Gwinn, Emeritus Professor at Berkley, among others. The treatment received by F & P made researches defensive and kept the evidence "in mothballs." Later on, a physicist explained to the financial supporters that such reactions were impossible, according to theory, which lead to the end of support. The vast majority accept the efficient market hypothesis explanation for all that happens: if it worked, it would be developed. Well, our market is politically impaired, IMO, and our schools are mind-numbing. On the other side are the believers in a belevolent state. To them, I ask, why do the national labs not provide support for hybrid cars (so far as I know)? It can't be because it is impossible (excuse for ignoring CF) because so many successful prototypes have been built. Anyway, my impression from the article (see U.S. Patent #4,668,247 of 5/26/87) is that replication of the radiation test should not be any big deal for someone with some experience detecting alphas, protons and weak x-rays. The article has spectrums shown with and without a sheet of paper blocking the detector as confirmation. Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 14:20:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19759; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:17:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:17:12 -0700 Message-ID: <35427D1B.1471 bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:17:31 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Faraday cage question References: <35423AB0.EB324637 darknet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"RGrEt.0.fq4.NBbGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17870 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a question about farady cages.. I'm setting up a lab in my > basement, but my computer is located right above it, and there is > another computer on the other side of the wall (wooden ceiling/floor, > cement wall. Not sure if that would make any difference).. I need a way > to isolate the lab from the rest of the building, and I was wondering if > a faraday cage would do this.. All the information I've seen so far on > EM shielding has been focused on shielding from outside EM fields. I'm > hoping it will work both ways, but I'm not sure.. can anyone help? > > thanks.. > -Steve Yep, it works both ways. Terry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 15:00:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24059; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:55:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:55:40 -0700 Message-ID: <35424F29.4B85 gorge.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:01:29 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: hheffner corecom.net Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in jar References: <199804251739.KAA25888 mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Uka1Z1.0.pt5.RlbGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17871 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace wrote: > To solve difficult problems, like the energy > problem, all that is required is faith and optimism, and widely diverse > searching for a solution. Conversely, consider those for whom the "laws" of thermodynamics are such articles of faith that such laws can never be broken, modified, or even better understood. (Or that physics learned all there is to know about magnetism 100 years ago.) For such a person to "believe" that an experiment which demonstrated OU results was a true depiction of reality would be like the Pope becoming an abortionist. It would take a complete revolution in his belief system. Such a person is very unlikely to discover a system which extracts energy from space, or from a permanent magnet. If he truly believes it is impossible, he cannot do it, any more than a hypnotized subject can lift an arm which he believes is chained to the floor. The best we can hope for is a few "agnostics;" scientists whose scientific integrity is stronger than their "faith" in laws written by fallible men. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 15:39:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27025; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:36:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:36:29 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:43:49 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: [off topic] Bane in jar Resent-Message-ID: <"WR9f01.0.6c6.iLcGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17872 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:58 AM 4/25/98, Ed Wall wrote: [snip] >I agree it is reasonable to have such expectations (faith), but anything to >reduce the randomness of the search is needed. What seems to work well is a >heuristic approach. The number of permutations possible in any fairly >simple procedure is mind boggling (one likely explanation for the low >replication rates in 'fringe' science). Actually, both a broadening and narrowing mechanism are needed to make an optimal heuristic search if local maima or minima are involved. As a heuristic search narrows and no improvement is found it is essential to then continually broaden the search pattern until some improvement is found, or at least some indicator is found of a slope to a new maximal point, a new regime. As the dimensions of the search space increase, it is even more imparative the grainines of the search be greatly increased whenever a local optimum is found, due to the high cost of a fine search. As you say, ego and vested interest oppose such a search broadening, both on basis of apparent cost or waste and on the basis of going against the known paradigm. The fringe scientist, and young scientists as soon as they can get away with it, not being as invested in the present paradigm, provide that essential search broadening that is required to find the new paradigms, the new local ranges of search for optimality. If a prospect is found far afield, then the search range can be steadily narrowed. Surf the function! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 16:35:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08140; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3542715F.44D interlaced.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:27:27 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in jar References: <19980425195839.AAA26004 Default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5IHR31.0.5_1.n6dGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17873 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > On the other side are the believers in a > belevolent state. To them, I ask, why do the national labs not provide > support for hybrid cars (so far as I know)? It can't be because it is > impossible (excuse for ignoring CF) because so many successful prototypes > have been built. Actually, Ed, I spent my last years at NASA Lewis working on electric and hybrid vehicle drive trains. I helped set up a "road load simulator" at Lewis to test advanced drive trains. NASA, with DOE funding, let many contracts to firms like GE, Westinghouse, TRW and many small speciality houses working on various electric car concepts. At Lewis, we did field work to test many electric cars from various small makers - the best ones we could find in the late 70's and early 80's. Lewis also managed a contract with Chrysler to help them build and test a clean-burning regenerative gas turbine engine which was istalled in a car for test. Many great sounding technologies just can not "fly" from a resource availability standpoint when you apply them to a consumer item like the private car. This can be a real problem for some critical materials. I have been retired since 1982 but I would be surprised if the national labs are not doing a great deal of work RELATED TO electric and hybrid vehicles. The large corporations could build such vehicles NOW if it met their marketing strategies. If you really want to promote electric and hybrid vehicles, get out and beat the drums for higher petroleum prices (via taxes, if necessary) to remove the incentive for sticking with the status quo. And when you do that, listen to the vested interests howl and watch them come after you with no holds barred! What's the biggest growth area for vehicles - gas hogging pickup trucks and huge SUVs for the shoppers to drive around the corner to the food market. As long as gasoline WITH TAX costs less than the same volume of bottled water, the public is not going to perceive an energy crisis. Little gets done in this country unless it hurts NOT to do it. Most of the "problem" is with us and the ways we manage our daily lives - IMHO. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 19:46:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25872; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:43:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:43:49 -0700 X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in car(was jar) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 02:43:09 +0000 Message-ID: <19980426024307.AAA9880 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"NV7tE3.0.5K6.azfGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17874 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger wrote: >Actually, Ed, I spent my last years at NASA Lewis working on electric >and hybrid vehicle drive trains. Lewis also managed a contract with Chrysler to help >them build and test a clean-burning regenerative gas turbine engine which was >istalled in a car for test. > I knew there was much electric vehicle work being done. I suppose I should have asked the question before making the assumption. I have seen a lot of "advertising" for battery research done by the labs, but I was disappointed that the turning away from cold war research did not seem to get any emphasis on hybrids, which make so much sense. An article in SAE Journal in '89? covered the efforts being made by VW with two Rabbits, one gas and one diesel. The flywheel, starter and alternator were replaced with a thin motor that mounted where the flywheel was. It used regenerative braking. Overall, it seems mechanically simpler than the stock car, since that motor was a starter, alternator, drive motor and brake. The control systems for braking and charging would be a challenge. Digital control was my major in EE and I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to accomplish (although I haven't tried anything that difficult). The VW prototype was getting about 35% improvement in mileage in city driving conditions. The combined powerplants would give better range and power than the stock car. I had high hopes when I read the article, and saw some other prototype hybrids. When VW was on the ropes, I thought they might just be bold and innovate (although I doubt I'd buy the first year's model). Once the bugs were worked out, it would be a very competitive vehicle, so far as I can tell (but do tell me what I am missing, Frank). >Many great sounding technologies just can not "fly" from a resource >availability standpoint when you apply them to a consumer item like the >private car. This can be a real problem for some critical materials. Are referring to exotic battery technology? The hybrids do not need a great deal of battery capacity, so off-the-shelf lead-acid is probably adequate. > >I have been retired since 1982 but I would be surprised if the national >labs are not doing a great deal of work RELATED TO electric and hybrid >vehicles. The large corporations could build such vehicles NOW if it >met their marketing strategies. If you really want to promote electric >and hybrid vehicles, get out and beat the drums for higher petroleum >prices (via taxes, if necessary) to remove the incentive for sticking >with the status quo. And when you do that, listen to the vested >interests howl and watch them come after you with no holds barred! >What's the biggest growth area for vehicles - >gas hogging pickup trucks and huge SUVs for the shoppers to drive around >the corner to the food market. As long as gasoline WITH TAX costs less >than the same volume of bottled water, the public is not going to >perceive an energy crisis. Little gets done in this country unless it >hurts NOT to do it. Most of the "problem" is with us and the ways we >manage our daily lives - IMHO. Understood. It hurts us economically to not have more efficient drive trains, but "we" do not know it, because "we" believe myths, i.e. that the market is delivering the most quality for the least cost, or that the government is doing everything possible (just ask Al Gore). Raising taxes enough to accomplish this is politically unacceptable, that is, any politician who tries it earns the enmity of many organizations and individuals. Also, such a move would be inflationary. The way out is knowledge and discovery and work and allowing free-market forces to give the right choices to well-educated (as opposed to advertisement-saturated) consumers, IMO. People don't see an energy crisis because fuel is cheap. Even if we make it expensive with taxes, we only delay the day of reckoning. The problems caused by having so many people so mobile has to do with the perceived need to be extremely materially productive. Other developed nations do not have work forces that unhesitatingly relocate families to get a new job. It cannot be solved so easily by taxes. We need ideas about what a good life is that are not formed by politicians and pop culture. People are more likely to make rational choices if they do not perceive the government as constantly manipulating them, like lab rats. Incidently, I was recently hit by a small car running a stop sign at high speed. Datsun 200SX vs. heavy-duty Dodge diesel pickup. I was very glad to have so much mass around me. I write this only partly as a defense of my pickup truck (which I actually need for work), and more in hope that we can do something for the death and injury rate with technology soon. An on-board stop-sign warning that squeals if projected deceleration exceeds some threshold would not be so very difficult or expensive to put into the system and would probably be cost effective if it worked well. I'm sure we can think of lots more such devices. An article in Scientific American from '90? about an EPA study compared different alternative fuel types (electric, hydrogen, gasoline, propane, methanol, ethanol) and their general conclusion was that methanol was the best because it could be produced from natural gas stocks and distributed via the fuel infrastructure presently existing for around the same cost. They speculated 90 mpg for a hybrid car that had an engine designed for methanol because it would not require a radiator. I got the impression that aerodynamic drag is the biggest enemy of high mileage for passenger vehicles. Deleting the radiator eliminates a lot of drag and weight. Am I the only one who received IE #18 already? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sat Apr 25 23:27:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15617; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:26:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:26:16 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980426062607.0069b838 atlantic.net> X-Sender: johmann atlantic.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 02:26:07 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Kurt Johmann Subject: Re: [off topic] Bain in jar Resent-Message-ID: <"Q-RDf2.0.vp3.7EjGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17875 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net) writes: >At 6:07 AM 4/25/98, Ed Wall wrote: >[snip] >> Have you ever considered the possibility >>that the reality of the situation is that a human brain is submerged in a >>jar of saline solution, being fed nutrients and oxygen by technologically >>advanced aliens > >Personally, I think it is much more likely the whole universe is a >simulation on a big computer. At least that could explain quantum >mechanics in part, as it is due to reaching the limits of the simulation >granularity. Would be handy to be able to drop into diagnostic mode and >modify memory at will, wouldn't it? I wrote an on-line book on this the-universe-is-running-on-a-computer kind of idea: http://www.webcom.com/johmann "At least that could explain quantum mechanics in part, as it is due to reaching the limits of the simulation granularity." Sounds good to me. Kurt Johmann -- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 01:20:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23480; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:18:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:18:28 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 04:14:18 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in jar Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199804260417_MC2-3AFC-925F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"eUs4h.0.ok5.JtkGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17876 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank Stenger said: >> Little gets done in this country unless it hurts NOT to do it. << There is an interesting analogy WRT lead-free fuel. Initially it was declared that it was too expensive to produce and all the technical arguments against it were published. It was when the gummint (here at least in the UK) differentiated the tax in favour of lead-free by a penny or two that it became the norm. I had to change my car in order to be able to run on LF as it was not convertible. So it isn't always pure economics that makes for change but sentiment and political cynicism sometimes have much to do with change. If gummint decided that it would increase their popularity to favour low pollution vehicles then they would alter the tax regime to reduce the cost of running them, not just increase the cost of existing fuels. The solution of city traffic congestion IMO lies in the management of traffic and parking, not in punitive taxation. For example there is an experiment on the notorious M25 motorway on a section either side of Heathrow airport where the speed limit is variable along the whole length. The traffic is scanned and computer optimised to reduce the bunching and stop-go which bedevils all heavily loaded systems, and while the overall journey time is about the same, the degree of frustration and shunts is greatly reduced. Most drivers stay within 10mph of the displayed speed and the cameras seem to allow that margin!! Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 06:41:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06097; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:38:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:38:14 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Reed Huish" To: Subject: RE: Tesla and OU stuff on Wired News today Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bd7118$7e99bbc0$aa65c6d0 reed-huish> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3541F786.EB28B62C verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Blu2d3.0.AV1.5ZpGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17877 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I'm afraid Jerry Decker was right (see the story). Haven't seen anything working (excess energy) so far at this conference. Wiseman's Browns Gas demonstration was probably the best. - Reed Huish Zenergy > -----Original Message----- > From: Hamdi Ucar [mailto:hamdix verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 1998 7:48 AM > To: vortex > Subject: Tesla and OU stuff on Wired News today > > > See http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/11898.html > > Found at http://www.wired.com/news/ > > The Boys and Their Tesla Toys > 12:04 pm The memory of Nikola Tesla is still > inexorably bound to the fringes of scientific > research. > > hamdi ucar > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 07:03:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08575; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:02:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:02:44 -0700 Message-ID: <35433E9B.5136 interlaced.net> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:03:07 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in car(was jar) References: <19980426024307.AAA9880 Default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BQtX-.0.n52.3wpGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17878 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ed Wall wrote: > Frank S.(me) wrote: > >What's the biggest growth area for vehicles - > >gas hogging pickup trucks and huge SUVs for the shoppers to drive around > >the corner to the food market. Then Ed informed: I write this only partly as a defense of my > pickup truck (which I actually need for work), and more in hope that we can > do something for the death and injury rate with technology soon. Let it not be said that Stenger can't rain on a guy's parade without even knowing there IS a parade! Actually, Ed, I probably suffer from "pickup envy" - I live on a small farm and could often use the cargo capability. I'm sure that if we had to, pickups could also benefit from advanced technology. :-) While we're picking on the "way we are", where the heck is our advanced rail transport system? How many of our interstate right-of-ways could support a parallel electric rail system - or some kind of road-supplied electric power for hybrid vehicles? (I can hear the vested interests roaring in the background). Our US money-elected government IS this mixing bowl of special interests - if we are looking for villians we can look to our next-door neighbors - the owner of a trucking company, the professional truck driver, the petroleum exec and the associated workers, the highway construction companies and workers, the auto manufacturers and workers, etc., etc. When we REALLY run out of oil, then all these interests will shift, UNDER PRESSURE, to accommodate the new reality. Note that the moon shot was one of the few 10-year plan projects to get the "go" - probably because it made so many contractors happy and not too many voters unhappy - at the time. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 08:35:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16971; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:34:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:34:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:28:12 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Faraday cage question In-Reply-To: <35423F4A.AB6439EA darknet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pyTuL1.0.594.4GrGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17879 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In general: A conductive but non magnetic F cage will shield medium frequency electromagnetic to HF EM. The cage should return to a good low impedance earth ground. It will NOT shield LF or magnetic, especially LF magnetic. A second cage, displaced from the first by air will attenuate more. For very high frequencies small openings can become like radiators, 'slot antennas'. For magnetic shileding a ferro magnetic materials must be used and sheet steel is acceptable. More than one cage-within-a-cage will give you better attenutation. The old well shielded Thordarson transformers had as many a seven or more layers of alternating conductive non magnetic, often copper, and ferrous, often Ni-Fe alloys, each air displaced fom the next. The USAF Magneto encephalography shielded chamber uses two boxes. one withing the other, air displaced by a foot or so, of Ni-Fe. Each of the boxes is also well grounded. Attenuation of LF magnetic disturbance is measure at ~ minus 50 dBel. J On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Steve wrote: > > (wooden ceiling/floor, cement wall. Not sure if that would make any > > difference).. > > Er.. 3 of the walls are cement, (other is wood/drywall.. still gotta build > that one) as is the floor.. the ceiling, which is the floor of my computer > room, is wood.. after I wrote the email I realized it sounded a bit > confusing, even if it has no relevance to the question... > > ttyl > -Steve > -- > darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 > DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net > Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 10:12:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28979; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:10:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:10:42 -0700 Posted-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:05:42 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <354366C6.1C17102 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:54:30 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Faraday cage question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"aWBSN1.0.j47.IgsGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17880 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks John, for this precious information. Im gonna build a cage soon. hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 10:40:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22026; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980425235735.0095a410 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:57:35 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: BLP Run #14 In-Reply-To: <353A073D.6C852BFD mail.pc.centuryinter.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19980415084930.00b98858 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"APATC.0.xN5.04tGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17882 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 02:16 PM 4/19/98 +0000, Jack Smith wrote: >........and "no effect" should be perceived as >only the result in the specific experiments >conducted so far. I hope I did not imply any other meaning. In experimental science, one can only make conclusions about the experiments actually conducted...and nothing more. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 10:40:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22117; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980426123318.00913100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:33:18 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: back from ICCF-7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"O_mFD3.0.mO5.84tGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17884 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts, ICCF-7, with 211 participants, was quite stimulating to me. There are a number of extremely competent scientists devoting a major portion of their time and energy to this field. In particular, I was most impressed with the fundamental research being done by the Japanese. Many researchers reported excess heat...but few reported really large excess heats. This bothers me....but it may not be significant. If anything, cold fusion is not very predictable and maybe it is just too soon to expect the kind of steady improvements that should eventually occur...if the CF phenomenon is valid. It was rewarding to have Martin Fleischmann attend the conference. He is a delightful man with an enormous intellect and he is absolutely convinced that the excess heat phenomenon is genuine. However, he readily acknowledges that no convincing CF demonstration apparatus exists today. Thursday morning he gave a very interesting talk which was laden with tips and hints on how to stimulate the excess heat effect. I took notes. It was good to finally connect faces with many of the names in this field: McKubre, Chubb(s), Swartz, Celani, Kasagi, Mizuno, Ohmori, Yamaguchi, Mallove, Rothwell, Carrell, Strojny, Schaeffer, Li, Srinivasan, Ragland, Hekman, Dufour, Vigier, Takahashi, Dash, Kawasaki, Kennel, Miles, Oriani, Patterson, etc. Of course, I already had met some of them: Storms, Stringham, George, Passell, Miley, Jeager, Kucherov, Nagel, Bockris, Bush, Claytor, Cravens, Collis, Biberian... Speaking of Biberian, he told an amazing joke (summarized below) at his presentation: "In the beginning, God made all the lands. Then God made France...more beautiful than all the other lands. Then, to compensate, God made the Frenchman!" Needless to say, it brought down the house. Douglas Morrison attended the conference and was present at nearly every session. He is outwardly still extremely skeptical of CF...but he was there nonetheless! Fran Tanzella (SRI) & I presented a calorimetry workshop at which I demonstrated a working new water-flow calorimeter that, fortunately, was working reasonably well for the occasion. A new guy, Dr. Case, presented experimental results involving a standard hydrogenation catalyst and hydrogen gas which indicate that significant excess heat is evolved only with deuterium and only with certain types of this catalyst. His experiment will be easy to replicate and our existing BLP apparatus is well suited for job. Dr. Case has obtained an international patent on his process and is thus quite willing/eager to assist folks in replicating his work. We should be running his experiment by the end of next week. Ohmori presented results of a very unusual electrolytic cell in which a 1cm^2 W cathode becomes INCANDESCENT while submerged in electrolyte running at about 100 watts! An adiabatic calorimetry method indicates that the cell is about 50% over-unity. We'll probably try this one, too. Those are the highlights that stick in my mind. Many more important papers were presented. Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 10:40:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22084; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980426123640.0093d630 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:36:40 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <7e643f43.353ee87c aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"yER7Q1.0.pO5.94tGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17883 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:06 AM 4/23/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: >Using the data given above, can some math wizard vortexian take the >resistance readings and extropilate down to at least .05 Kilohms? I'm no math wizard but I can do it by fitting the data to the Steinhart-Hart eqn that predicts thermistor behavior. Do you still want it done? Scott Little EarthTech International, Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759 512-342-2185 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little eden.com http://www.eden.com/~little From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 10:43:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21037; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35436F8B.F59F40CB darknet.net> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:31:55 -0400 From: Steve Organization: DarkNet Online/Digital Fusion X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Faraday cage question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"UizV5.0.c85.E0tGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17881 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi all, thanks for the excellent information! ttyl -Steve p.s. what thickness of steel sheeting should be used if I want to shield a device such as a gravity resonance coil? (also known as a resonant gravity field coil I think..) A device I'm working on might possibly produce electromagnetic fields near the strength of ones generated by this device. http://www.dnai.com/~zap/gravkit.txt -- darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 11:32:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00740; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:30:16 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:56:29 EDT To: hheffner corecom.net Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"9M7OJ.0.TB.rqtGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17885 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-25 12:56:28 EDT, you write: > When you post the data could you cut and paste the data into an email for > those of us unable to read your attachments? Thanks. > Regards, > Horace Heffner Sure, Here you are Horace. The first column is time in minutes and the second is degrees C +-0.1 M Deg C 0 68.5 <---full vacuum 1 72.5 2 79.9 3 85.6 4 89.2 5 91.7 6 92.9 7 94.5 8 95.3 9 95.6 10 95.8 11 96 12 96.3 13 96.5 14 96.7 15 96.8 16 96.6 17 96.2 18 95.8 19 96.9 20 98.8 21 98.3 22 97.4 23 96.6 24 95.3 25 94.4 26 93.4 27 92.7 28 92.3 29 92 30 92.1 31 94.3 32 96.7 33 99.1 34 100.5 35 101.6 36 102.7 37 103.4 38 104.3 39 104.4 40 104.8 41 105.3 42 105.6 43 106.2 44 106.4 45 106.4 46 106.8 47 107.2 48 107.6 49 107.5 50 106.8 51 106.8 52 107.5 53 108 54 108.4 55 108.9 56 109.2 57 109 58 109 59 108.9 60 108.9 61 108.3 62 108.2 63 108.6 64 109.2 65 109.5 66 109.9 67 109.8 68 109.9 69 110 70 110.1 71 109.8 72 109.4 73 108.8 74 108.5 75 108.2 76 108 77 108.1 78 108.1 79 108.2 80 108.1 81 108.2 82 108.3 83 108.4 84 107.9 85 107.4 86 107 87 106.3 88 106.1 89 106.1 90 106.1 <---argon fill 91 111.5 92 109.5 93 104.8 94 100.4 95 96.9 96 94.5 97 92.7 98 91.5 99 90.6 100 89.7 101 88.8 102 88.1 103 87.6 104 87.3 105 87 106 86.7 107 86.8 108 86.7 109 86.5 110 86.5 111 91.7 112 94.4 113 94.1 114 91.5 115 90.1 116 89.2 117 88.3 118 87.6 119 87 120 86.7 <---pull full vacuum 121 86.8 122 87.9 123 89.3 124 90.5 125 91.7 126 92.1 127 93.5 128 94.1 129 94.6 130 95.2 131 95.8 132 96.5 133 97 134 97.4 135 97.8 136 98.2 137 98.6 138 99.1 139 99.6 140 99.9 141 100.2 142 100.8 143 101.3 144 101.8 145 102.4 146 102.8 147 103.3 148 103.7 149 103.8 150 103.8 <----H2 fill 151 100.3 152 121.7 153 138.2 154 150.1 155 159.3 156 159.1 157 158.3 158 159 159 160.3 160 161.5 161 161.4 162 160.1 163 157.2 164 148.8 165 140.1 166 177.9 167 192 168 190 169 191.2 170 187.5 171 198.2 172 206.5 173 210 174 212.6 175 214 176 215.4 177 217.5 178 219.4 179 220.7 180 221.8 181 222.3 182 222.7 183 222.9 184 222.8 185 220 <----vac 30 sec H2 fill to 25.0 186 228 187 233.2 188 236.2 189 238.1 190 239.1 191 239.4 192 240.9 193 241.4 194 241.6 195 242.4 196 243.4 197 243.7 <---seal melted here 198 241.1 199 239.1 200 237.6 201 220.2 202 215.4 203 213.7 204 219.2 205 224 206 226.5 207 227.5 <--pulled the plug here 208 209.3 209 188.6 210 160.4 211 212 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 11:39:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01905; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:37:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <007301bd7141$8c948b00$628cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Whirling Hoop Experiment Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:30:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"yfm2t.0.eT.zxtGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17886 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: If one uses an anchored swivel and drive motor, a length of wire formed into a hoop rotated at up to 30,000 RPM should show a voltage that can be picked off with brushes-slip rings. A small diameter wire shouldn't create too much air drag? The 0.5 gauss magnetic field of the Earth should create a voltage: V = Blv. IF there is a magnetic component to the g field this Might show up too, at a different orientation of the rotating loop. (subsonic) Now if we can borrow Frank Stenger's Router. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 11:47:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03387; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:37:34 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Magnetic ...Re: Faraday cage question In-Reply-To: <35436F8B.F59F40CB darknet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"pNiji3.0.rq.I3uGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17887 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The inner most shield shoul be at least 3-4 feet from the target. 18 to 20 gage shhet steel is fine. An air space of 1 foot and then another sheet steel layer. The steel should be gounded. Galvanized is fine. JHS On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Steve wrote: > Hi all, > > thanks for the excellent information! > > ttyl > -Steve > > p.s. what thickness of steel sheeting should be used if I want to shield a > device such as a gravity resonance coil? (also known as a resonant gravity field > coil I think..) A device I'm working on might possibly produce electromagnetic > fields near the strength of ones generated by this device. > http://www.dnai.com/~zap/gravkit.txt > -- > darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 > DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net > Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 12:36:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11581; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:26:42 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <354387D2.2FE2FF61 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:15:30 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex Subject: Huge material at BAPSMAR98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"xF8tu3.0.pq2.umuGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17888 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I am currently browsing 1998 March Meeting of The American Physical Society pages at http://epswww.epfl.ch/aps/BAPSMAR98/ and http://positron.aps.org/BAPSMAR98/ Performed at March 16-20, 1998 Los Angeles, CA Huge archive of papers on latest advances on physics and technology on every subjects. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 12:59:42 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15311; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3543917D.9D5 spu.edu> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:56:45 -0700 From: TK Reply-To: tnk spu.edu Organization: me X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: generating muons Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FctGw.0.4l3.17vGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17889 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: How would I go about generating muons and then focusing them into a concentrated beam?? Any help would be appreciated. I am looking for a solution that would be at least somewhat energy efficient. Thankyou. TK tkirk hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 13:06:34 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17563; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:10:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: <"7Q_u21.0.JI4.dDvGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17890 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:56 PM 4/25/98, VCockeram wrote: [snip] >Here you are Horace. The first column is time in minutes and the second >is degrees C +-0.1 > >M Deg C [snip] >150 103.8 <----H2 fill >151 100.3 >152 121.7 >153 138.2 >154 150.1 >155 159.3 >156 159.1 >157 158.3 >158 159 >159 160.3 >160 161.5 >161 161.4 >162 160.1 >163 157.2 >164 148.8 >165 140.1 >166 177.9 >167 192 >168 190 >169 191.2 [snip] Thanks for the data Vince! I especially appreciate the comments with arrows. Temperature surge looks impressive. You need to compensate for change in resistance, i.e. change in input power, due to the high electrical conductivity of hydrogen I suspect. It would be great if you could box it up into a calorimeter like Scott's. Power input measurement looks like a challenge. Definitely a nifty experiment you have done. What are you using for a power supply? I seem to have missed that. Maybe the power supply could go into the calorimeter box as well, and eliminate lots of variables. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 13:07:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17592; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:10:29 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Whirling Hoop Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"aDjI51.0.mI4.iDvGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17891 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:30 PM 4/26/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >To Vortex: > >If one uses an anchored swivel and drive motor, a length of wire formed into >a hoop rotated at up to 30,000 RPM should show a voltage that can be picked >off with brushes-slip rings. > >A small diameter wire shouldn't create too much air drag? > >The 0.5 gauss magnetic field of the Earth should create a voltage: V = Blv. > >IF there is a magnetic component to the g field this Might show up too, at a >different orientation of the rotating loop. (subsonic) > >Now if we can borrow Frank Stenger's Router. :-) > >Regards, Frederick Gee, Fred, this sounds like an experiment *you* might like to do! 8^) Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 14:26:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28399; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:18:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <009201bd7158$0f485020$628cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Whirling Hoop Experiment Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:12:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"lQkGi2.0.bx6.LIwGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17892 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 2:04 PM Subject: Re: Whirling Hoop Experiment WARNING! >At 12:30 PM 4/26/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>To Vortex: >> >>If one uses an anchored swivel and drive motor, a length of wire formed into >>a hoop rotated at up to 30,000 RPM should show a voltage that can be picked >>off with brushes-slip rings. >> >>A small diameter wire shouldn't create too much air drag? >> >>The 0.5 gauss magnetic field of the Earth should create a voltage: V = Blv. >> >>IF there is a magnetic component to the g field this Might show up too, at a >>different orientation of the rotating loop. (subsonic) >> >>Now if we can borrow Frank Stenger's Router. :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > > >Gee, Fred, this sounds like an experiment *you* might like to do! 8^) I only do "Thought Experiments", Horace. WARNING! THIS COULD DECAPITATE YOU! :-( > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 15:18:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24881; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:14:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:14:04 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:21:31 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Whirling Hoop Experiment Resent-Message-ID: <"oOfen1.0.h46.i6xGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17893 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 3:12 PM 4/26/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >I only do "Thought Experiments", Horace. Yes, and you do an excellent job of that. But look at all the fun you are missing. > >WARNING! THIS COULD DECAPITATE YOU! :-( Let's see, capitation is charging by head count, so decapitation must me charging by discounting. So that's the secret of ou, charge your capacitors at a discount. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 15:27:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06750; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:16:18 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804261820_MC2-3B0D-8009 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"vGlmf.0.Kf1.2FxGr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17894 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex There were many good papers at ICCF7 about research that has continued for years, especially from McKubre, Miley, Storms and Fleischmann. I'll talk about these some other time, but today I would like to describe some notable surprises, that is, papers describing new and unexpected breakthroughs. These have not been replicated or independently verified yet. I would target them for a closer look and near term replication. Case and Ohmori appear to be relatively simple to replicate. Attached are six abstracts describing novel, unexpected developments. (Unexpected by me, anyway.) Papers are listed alphabetically by the main author: Cain Case Iwamura Ohmori (no abstract available) Silver Stringham Here are my comments about the papers. B. L. Cain. Sputtered thin film palladium is electrolyzed in highly concentrated electrolyte at high temperatures. (Cain selected a high temperature because I wrote that Fleischmann recommends it, which is gratifying. At least one researcher listens!) Six out of six cells produced heat, ranging from 50 to 100 watts, which is extremely high power density for a thin film. The authors used much more electrolyte than normal, in a clear cell, so they could see what was going on better than most researchers can. They emphasize the importance of direct observation. A number of factors raise the suspicion this might be a chemical reaction: 1. Much lithium carbonate precipitated out the electrolyte. 2. In one case, the cell began to produce heat before electrolysis was turned on 3. The excess heat runs were fairly short, and successful runs were accompanied by intense and somewhat weird chemical reactions also took place continuously, with cloudiness, bubbles and so on. 4. The complex chemical reactions are apparently critical to the excess heat. When other, equally vigorous but different chemical changes took place no heat was observed. For example, when lithium salts coated the vessel above the water line heat was not generated; when the upper portion of the vessel remained clean, heat was generated. To allay worries about a chemical reaction masquerading as cold fusion, the chemistry department did a careful analysis of the precipitate and before and after samples of electrolyte, cathode and other components. The precipitate was tested when it was still wet slurry. The conclusion was that ~5% of the lithium converted to carbonate. If 100% of the lithium had been consumed, this would have generated enough chemical heat to explain the excess. The carbonate was presumably formed from carbon from the air, because this is an open cell. It was more open than normal, and more than recommended, so I suggested they use a gas bubbler. This might prevent carbonate formation and which might also clobber the reaction, which would be interesting. The power was cycled on and off in order to perform loading measurements. I suspect this may have contributed to the success of the experiment (assuming it did actually succeed and this is not chemistry.) I would urge people who replicate the experiment to cycle the power in the same pattern, even if you do not measure loading when the current is off. The fact that the cell began producing heat before electrolysis is surprising and suspicious, as Morrison pointed out, but it is not totally unexpected. Fleischmann has been telling me for years he expects chemical methods of making hydrides might be superior to electrochemistry. Morrison claimed these results contradict others because "cold fusion requires electrochemistry" but this is untrue. Beginning in March 1989 gas loading, ion beam loading and other methods have been reported and discussed at the ICCF conferences which Morrison attended. This experiment will have be independently confirmed or widely replicated before I believe it, but it is interesting and tentatively it looks like quality work to me. Cain agreed to try to arrange independent verification soon. He will also attempt to run a cell for a long time, past the 'limits of chemistry.' L. C. Case. Gas loading with commercial hydrogenation catalysts consisting of ~1% palladium on activated carbon. The cell must be maintained at a temperature between 150 and 200 deg C, no higher or lower. It is first loaded with hydrogen, which cleans the catalyst and purges oxygen. It is then evacuated and loaded with deuterium. The temperature rises 5 to 30 deg C over the baseline temperature established with hydrogen, indicating 10 to 30 watts of excess heat. The excess heat lasts for weeks. He has never let it run indefinitely. He quenches the heat by letting the cell cool. The experiment has been repeated dozens of times successfully. Cravens commented that the treatment with hydrogen may be important. It serves as a null run and it cleans the catalyst. Someone asked Case whether the hydrogen blanks might be producing heat. He responded that he would have no way of telling; he only knows that deuterium is much warmer. (He ignores differences less than 5 deg C.) I was suspicious that this might be an artifact of the different conduction coefficients of deuterium and hydrogen. Such problems were reported by Mizuno, Oriani and others working with gas calorimeters. I asked Case about the position of the thermocouples, gas pressure, calibration techniques and the cell wall temperature. I am satisfied this type of artifact is not a factor. In his conference summation, McKubre cited this as one of the most significant papers because Case appears to have developed a 100% reproducible process, and because he is willing to publish all details about experiment. Mallove and I agree that this may be the most important experiment in cold fusion. At present, Case uses an uninsulated steel cell which he holds at the critical temperature with an electric heater. We advised him to move the cell to an insulated container, perhaps a Dewar, and to turn off the electric heater once the reaction begins. If this is a genuine cold fusion excess heat reaction, the cell should self-heat and remain hot indefinitely with no input, probably for years. This test would do away with the need for calorimetry and resolve all doubts about the existence of the excess heat. Case is a retired chemical engineer who has decades of experience working with these catalysts. Beginning in 1989, he scoured the catalogs and requested sample materials from several chemical companies. He tested hundreds of samples at different temperatures and pressures, in an Edisonian search for one that would rapidly absorb deuterium and develop excess heat reliably. He finally found a particular type of catalyst that is available from three suppliers. He has filed for an international patent, which requires that all details be revealed even before the patent is granted. I do not have the patent number or the catalog part numbers, but I will get them soon. Case has agreed to bring his cell to Mallove's laboratory in Bow, New Hampshire next Thursday for independent verification. The materials in this cell simple and cheap. The chemical companies can supply tons of the catalyst, and only 50 to 100 grams of the catalyst is need for each small cell, so this would make an ideal demonstration cell. If we determine it works, we hope to license the device, manufacture and sell hundreds of demonstration kits within one month. We move fast here at Infinite Energy! Case took samples to Prague where he rented the use of a nuclear research laboratory to search for neutrons during the heat events, but after extensive research he determined there are none. Case took a cell that had run for weeks to Oak Ridge. They found 100 ppm helium in the used gas, and no significant helium in the unused gas or catalyst material. Y. Iwamura, Mitsubishi Advanced Technical Research Center. This is a continuation of work reported at the previous two ICCF conferences. They have made considerable progress. The experimental apparatus is a multimillion dollar instrument installed in a clean room. In six out of six experiments, they detected excess heat, x-rays and transmutations. This is a unique cathode, with layers of palladium and calcium oxide. Deuterium is loaded on one side electrolytically, and then sucked through the cathode into a vacuum chamber. This increases the mobility of the deuterium, which the authors believe enhances CF. Dennis Cravens and others have been saying that for years. The temperature is fairly high, 40 deg C I think, but not high enough. Per Fleischmann's recommendation Iwamura will try higher temperatures. The transmutations are confirmed with three independent methods of spectroscopy: EDS, XPS and something called WDS. Transmutation is also confirmed quantitatively: 22 micrograms of titanium were found on the active side of cathode, compared to 23 micrograms of titanium contamination measured in the entire cell before the experiment. It is extremely unlikely that all of titanium selectively leached out of the anode and electrolyte, because other contaminants like copper were present in larger amounts before the experiment, but no significant amount of copper was found on the anode. (Furthermore Cu is more mobile then Ti.) The Ti isotopes were not unusual, but the Fe found on the cathode was profoundly shifted. X-rays were observed on two detectors simultaneously, tuned to x-ray and gamma-ray spectra. An x-ray detector under the cathode, shielded from the active side saw no activity, as expected. Tom Claytor told me he thought the x-ray example might be a burst of noise because it climbed and then halted abruptly, but other experts disagreed. The pointed out that earlier bursts tapered off gradually. (These others were shown on a much smaller scale in the viewgraph, but Iwamura confirmed the shapes.) They also pointed out that the sample burst lasted 1000 seconds (17 minutes) which is longer than most bursts of noise, and the drop off looked more abrupt that it might have been because this was a count of x-ray emissions "binned" into 20 second points. If this was noise, it originated in the cell, not in the electrical system or the individual detectors because all events were seen on two exposed detectors but not in the shielded one. Iwamura says he took other steps to ensure the x-rays are real and he has a great deal more information about them, like the spectra. I hope he publishes it in details. Input power was ~40 watts, output ~42 watts. The 2 watt excess was measured at Sigma 3, which is low compared to most calorimeters. The cell is made of thin-walled Teflon. This allows x-ray detection but it reduces calorimetric precision. Mitsubishi has demonstrated how big money and high technology can make a superb contribution to this field. This kind of experiment showing multifaceted, indisputable evidence of a nuclear effect is exactly what the skeptical physics purists have been demanding for nine years. Unfortunately, judging from Morrison's reaction, I expect the skeptics will ignore it. I noted that Morrison ignored Iwamura's lecture after taking a few notes, turning his attention instead to the List of Attendees. He was apparently tallying them up on a sheet of paper, perhaps in support of his Regionalization of Results Theory. T. Ohmori. I cannot find the Abstract for this one. Briefly, it described excess heat and transmutations from tungsten run at high voltage at 85 to 100 deg C. I like this experiment because it is quick. The control run goes from 85 to boiling in two minutes, and the main experiment, with the same power input, the same mass of water, and the same stirring boils in 45 seconds. The experiment is quick but the analysis takes weeks. D. S. Silver. Palladium cathodes were electrolyzed once for very short periods, up to 6 minutes, and then put aside and observed. Observations were made months and years later. Gradual, profound changes to the metal were seen. This is an extraordinary result. If replicated, it would challenge many long standing hypotheses, like the idea that high loading is necessary. I thought the work was carefully done and well presented. R. Stringham. Cold fusion induced with cavitation bubbles. Like the Iwamura experiment, this was reported at previous conferences, but new developments were described. Input to output ratios are large. Day-long heat after death events and transmutations were observed. The experiment was described in greater detail than it has been previously. - Jed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE AND MORPHOLOGY OF PALLADIUM THIN-FILM DURING HYDROGEN LOADING Bruce L. Cain and Trace C. Scrivner, Mississippi State University, Mechanical Engineering Department, Mississippi State, MS Anne B. Cheney and J. Michael Rigsbee, University of Alabama at Birmingham, Materials and Mechanical Engineering Department, Birmingham, AL Sputter deposited palladium tin-film on alumina substrates were loaded with hydrogen and deuterium using electrolysis to observe the influence of loading on film morphology and electrical resistance. The palladium coatings were prepared by DC magnetron sputtering of a palladium target (99.95%) in an argon working gas at 5 mTorr, with substrate cooling to keep deposition temperatures below 70 deg C. Films were deposited onto 2.5 cm x 5 cm x 0.127 cm (thick) conductor grade aluminum oxide (99.67%) during 45 minute runs which produced film thicknesses of about 5 microns. Both the alumina substrates and the Pd target were sputter cleaned at several hundred watts using an argon discharge before opening shutters to begin the deposition. Several samples were then annealed at 700, 800 and 1000 deg C for one hour to allow for recrystallization and grain evolution. The as-deposited films exhibited typical microcrystalline structure with randomly oriented and elongated grains of maximum size nominally 1-2 microns. The films had good uniformity with porosity less than 1%. Using digital image analysis on the serious of annealed samples before hydrogen loading, the grain-size distributions were measured using an intensity-analysis algorithm to identify grain boundaries in the three planar directions. These results showed essentially log-normal distributions with some evidence of abnormal growth during annealing. Average grain sizes were .5, .7, 1.1, and 2.5 microns for the as-deposited, 700, 800 and 1000 deg C anneals, respectively. Samples were cathodically charged in a lithium-salt electrolyte using a 2.5 molal solution of LiOH-H2O in D2O. During loading of the films the electrical resistance of each sample was monitored using a 4-wire resistance probe made from Teflon insulated platinum wires friction pressed to the palladium film surface. To make these measurements the electrolyzing current was periodically cycled off to avoid electrical interference, resulting in a duty-cycle of about 60%. Unique "loading resistance curves" were obtained during constant-current loading at 1 mA/cm2 which exhibit what are believed to be cab hydride phase plateaus. After resistance increase of about 80%, the films were re-examined for morphological changes. All films delaminated from their alumina substrates during loading, and showed extensive swelling ad embrittlement. However the as-deposited films retained much of their film integrity while the larger- grained annealed samples showed extensive cracking along grain boundaries. These results along with more complex issues related to "surface blackening" during thermal power production and/or current reversal, will be discussed. Work is continuing to identify the "blackening deposits" using Auger and XRD analysis of the film surfaces. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CATALYTIC FUSION OF DEUTERIUM By: L. C. Case, Sc. D. After much experimentation, I have found specific conditions under which D2 gas catalytically fuses to helium-4. Some of the prior cold-fusion work may have adventitiously depended on such a catalytic effect. In my process, D2 gas is contacted at super-atmospheric pressure and a temperature of about 130 to 2750 C., with a supported metal catalyst. I have looked at many such catalysts, and found that a platinum-group metal supported on activated carbon, at a loading of about ~ to 1% on the substrate, seems to be preferred. Pd. Pt. Ir and Rh all work, and Pd seems preferred. Other supported catalysts may ultimately be found to also work. The process does not produce neutrons, or tritium, but two analyses of long-term tests have found about 100 ppm. of helium-4 in the fuel gas. Suitable equipment for this process is displayed. About 50 to 100 g. of candidate catalyst is loaded into the vessel, and the apparatus is sequentially tested with H2 and D2 gas at the same power input into the heating mantle. If the catalyst is active for D2 fusion, the temperature reached With D2 is more than SO C. higher than with H2. This process shows promise for cheap, large-scale energy production for the future. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - DETECTION OF ANOMALOUS ELEMENTS, X-RAY AND EXCESS HEAT INDUCED BY CONTINUOUS DIFFUSION OF DEUTERIUM THROUGH MULTI-LAYER CATHODE (Pd/CaO/Pd) Yasuhiro IWAMURA, Takahiko ITOH, Nobuaki GOTOH, Mitsuru SAKANO and Ichiro TOYODA Advanced Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. 1-8-1, Sachiura, Kanazawa-ku, Yokohama, 236, Japan, We investigate "cold fusion" phenomena with a new type of experimental apparatus for the purpose of causing nuclear reactions by continuous diffusion of deuterium through Pd. It consists of an electrochemical cell and a vacuum chamber as shown in Fig. 1. There exits continuous flow of deuterium atoms from the electrolyte side to the vacuum side through a Pd plate. Continuous X-ray ranging from 10keV to 100keV, neutron and excess heat productions were observed using the apparatus. Several elements such as Ti, Si, Cu or Fe were detected on the surface where deuterium atoms passed through Pd cathodes by EPMA. XPS, AES and ICP-MS were applied for the analysis of Ti. Quantitative discussion taking account of the analysis of D2O solutions, Pd cathodes and platinum anodes shows that the detected Ti atoms cannot be explained by contamination. A multi-layer cathode was developed based on EINR (Electron Induced Nuclear Reaction) model which the authors introduced for explaining experimental results. We observed excess heat generations and X-ray emissions for all the cases we tried (6 cases) by using the multi-layer cathodes. It was demonstrated by the experimental results that CaO was one of the elements which can induce nuclear reactions and it was necessary that CaO exists at the near surface of Pd. Different elements such as Zn or Pb, in addition to Ti, Si, Cu or Fe were also detected on the surfaces of the multi-layer cathodes. We are now trying to clarify the origins of these elements. At present, we consider that the detected Fe atoms may not be explained only by contamination, as SIMS analysis of Fe showed isotope shift. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - SURFACE STUDIES OF PALLADIUM AFTER INTERACTION WITH HYDROGEN ISOTOPES D. S. Silver and J. Dash, Physics Dept., Portland State University, Box 751, Portland, OR 97207, U.S.A. Several pairs of cold rolled palladium cathodes (40 1lm thick) were electrolyzed in series for various times up to six minutes. One of each pair was in light water electrolyte and the other in heavy water electrolyte. After electrolysis these cathode. were characterized by atomic force microscopy (AIDE and secondary ion mass spectrometry (SIMS). The AFM studies of the heavy water electrolyzed cathodes revealed asperities, craters, and nodules, suggesting that localized melting and recrystallization had occurred, as we reported previously on specimens electrolyzed for longer times. AFM studies 1.5 years later revealed loose, nanometer-sized particles, indicating that these cathodes continued to change during storage, long after electrolysis was performed, which we also reported previously on other cathodes. The morphology of palladium cathodes electrolyzed in light water electrolyte remained nearly identical to that of the unelectrolyzed control, even after 1.5 years. SIMS profiles of six palladium isotopes for a cathode electrolyzed for six minutes in heavy water showed inversions of isotopic abundance compared with the control. These results are similar to those which we reported previously on another palladium cathode electrolyzed for a longer time. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - CAVITATION IN D20 WITH METAL TARGETS PRODUCES PREDICTABLE EXCESS HEAT R. Stringham, E-Quest Sciences, 2166 Old Middlefield, Mountain View CA, 94043, USA Acoustically generated transient cavitation bubbles, TCBs, are created in D20 and characteristically collapse violently on surfaces of target metal lattices in the M3C device. During the one micro second collapse process of a pseudo-adiabatic nature, the bubble contents are dissociated and ionized with a portion of the contents accelerated via the formation of a bubble jet which is directed through the target surface into a lattice. The bubble jet produces local super loading of deuterons within the metal lattice a few micro seconds in duration before diffusion quickly dissipates these deuterons throughout the lattice. These TCBs are natural dense plasma micro accelerators in the range of 100 eV. The frequency of the pulsed acoustic source was 37Khz. The interaction between the injected bubble contents and the metal lattice relates to an unknown mechanism which generates heat in excess of that introduced by acoustic heating. The excess heat, Q(x) is separated from the other heat inputs using steady state differential calorimetry calibrated against an internal Joule heater. Both the calibration and cavitation experiments are run at steady state temperatures for about 24 hours as the Q(x) cannot be determined until steady state conditions are reached (about 2 hours). The experimental objective was to gather the results of 150 runs and deduce relationships that are not obvious with just a few experimental results. Parameters such as pressure, temperature and metal targets can be changed for each run. These runs, each of 24 hour duration, were divided into 50 joule heater calibration runs, 15 sonication runs of empty or inactive foils and 80 sonication runs of active foils. The metal foil targets were titanium, silver, copper, nickel titanium alloy, stainless steel or empty reactor. Plots of the reduced data show that Q(x) varies with the ratio of the vapor pressure of D20 over the external pressure of Ar. The excess heat, Q(x), was often greater than 3 times the heating from the piezo input. The watts delivered to the piezo device are divided into piezo heating and acoustic heating. The acoustic heating is further divided into frictional heating of the D20 and heating due to cavitation. If the acoustic level is too low, no cavitation occurred and no Q(x) is produced. The important watt input is the piezo input, (A+B), which is used in the calorimetric calculations. It is important to relate the parameters of cavitation input, vapor pressure and external pressure to produce an environment for the excess heat production in the M3C reactor. If these parameters are controlled the Q(x) is predictable from those cavitated targets. It appears that the cavitation Ax) production in metal targets other than Pd occurs and even occurs in targets that do not form hydrides. This perhaps can be explained by the interactions of local transient concentrations of D injected into a non-hydriding lattice such as Ag. The target metal Cu is of special note as it produces the highest ratio of Q(x) to (A+B) of 6 to 1. * End of File * From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 16:44:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA07174; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:41:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:41:15 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:48:42 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Resent-Message-ID: <"tDGVD2.0.0m1.ROyGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17895 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:16 PM 4/26/98, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Case has >agreed to bring his cell to Mallove's laboratory in Bow, New Hampshire next >Thursday for independent verification. The materials in this cell simple and >cheap. The chemical companies can supply tons of the catalyst, and only 50 to >100 grams of the catalyst is need for each small cell, so this would make an >ideal demonstration cell. If we determine it works, we hope to license the >device, manufacture and sell hundreds of demonstration kits within one month. >We move fast here at Infinite Energy! This is really exciting news. And it runs above that magic 100 C. Could make for a good electric vehicle battery charger. Thanks for all the exciting abstracts. Hopefully a sure sign of the end of the carbon age. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 17:53:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16995; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:49:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:49:28 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD714C.2671FE60 pm3-138.gpt.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Biefield-Brown effect false? Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:47:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sancf1.0.O94.NOzGr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17896 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Greetings all: I cam across a NASA web page (and mentioned it awhile back) that said the Biefield Brown effect is false. THe only passage on it reads: "Test of Biefield-Brown Effect-(results negative) Tally for Mead Its at http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/bpp_PREPARATORY_WORK.htm Comments please, Kyle Randall Mcallister Email: stk sunherald.infi.net Phone: 228-875-0629 Fax: 228-872-5837 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 18:47:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03889; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:46:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:46:11 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <680d7cdd.3543e340 aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:45:33 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"W_jeg1.0.hy.YD-Gr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17897 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: All, I need some help here. The high voltage 15 KHz power supply is unstable. I have a 1200 VDC 1/2 wave rectified power supply from a microwave oven. It pack quite a wallop. my left hand, palm and thumb accidently went into a bad spot with power off. The .6 mfd capacitor was lurking in the same spot with predictable results. I will recover from the 1/8 inch burn on the side of my thumb. My questions are: What would be the best way to limit current output from the supply? Control the input voltage with a variac? Ballast resistor in the HV side would work but changing them on the fly like I am able to do with the high frequency power supply would be impossible. I need to vary the current because of the large differences in the reactor tube resistance with different gas fills. That asked, now for the news: On April 24th I ran a series of tests on a new reactor tube. The new tube quartz is the same physical dimensions as the first one; 6 inch length, .230 id. The difference is in the electrode spacing. The old tube electrode gap was 3 inches. The new is 5/8 inch. I wanted a hotter arc and this seemed an easy way to do that. I ran a baseline tests with no K in the tube with H2 fill at 25 in Hg vacuum. Why 25 in Hg? Because with the old tube tests that seemd to produce the highest heat output. Without details results are as follows: Highest heat with H2 fill at 25 in Hg was 213.7 C. I tried various fill pressures, voltages and frequency and that was the highest sustained temperature I could get to. I think I need to go higher hence the new power supply. Today (Sunday) I ran with H2 fill and K in the tube. Again, various fill pressures, voltage and frequencys were tried. Strangly, the brightest arc (and temperature) happens when I just adjust the frequency for the brightest arc. At that point, the input voltage is at it lowest point. For instance, I note bright arc at say 3.57 KHz the input voltage shows 166.9 vac to the primary of the HV coil. If I vary the frequency above or below 3.57 KHz, the input to the primary rises (and the arc gets dimmer). It's like it finds a resonance point where the HV coil is pulling the most current (which causes the voltage dip). Bottom line: Tc max with Ar fill was..........158.5 C TC max with H2 fill was.......213.7 C. TC max with H2 + K fill was 243.5 C. All fills were to 25.0 in Hg indicated. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 19:08:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07595; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:04:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:04:14 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <000201bd7180$361c0340$278cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:45:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Kjn-6.0.Ws1.TU-Gr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17898 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Horace wrote: > >This is really exciting news. And it runs above that magic 100 C. Could >make for a good electric vehicle battery charger. > >Thanks for all the exciting abstracts. Hopefully a sure sign of the end of >the carbon age. Maybe just the end of the "Carbon Support", H2 or D2 + C ----> CHx or CDx + Heat! :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 19:24:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06455; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:21:50 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <431e5d15.3543eb30 aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:19:26 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"mpcOS1.0.ma1.yk-Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17899 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-26 13:37:14 EDT, you write: >> resistance readings and extropilate down to at least .05 Kilohms? > > I'm no math wizard but I can do it by fitting the data to the > Steinhart-Hart eqn that predicts thermistor behavior. > > Do you still want it done? > Scott Little Thanks Scott, no. Old thermistor is in the junk box now. I purchased a Fluke model 51 thermocouple meter. Works great. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 19:25:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06467; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:21:54 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <57c7db95.3543eb32 aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:19:28 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"oL3M93.0.ya1._k-Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17900 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-26 16:04:23 EDT, you write: > Maybe the power supply could go into the calorimeter box as well, and eliminate lots of variables. > Regards, > Horace Heffner Hoo boy, that will be some calorimeter Horace! The driver for the HV coil is a US Navy surplus sonar test set model AN/SG-425 which weighs in at about 200 pounds and is _all_ vacuum tubes and huge transformers! The HV coil is a Heathkit TV (27") flyback transformer. The HV coil doesn't even get warm when running but the signal generator could double as a garage heater! . See previous post (today, Sunday the 25th) about new power supply. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 19:36:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07973; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:34:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 02:31:53 +0000 Message-ID: <19980427023144.AAB12662 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"fyVGl1.0.Vy1.ew-Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17901 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:48 PM 4/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >At 6:16 PM 4/26/98, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>Case has >>agreed to bring his cell to Mallove's laboratory in Bow, New Hampshire next >>Thursday for independent verification. The materials in this cell simple and >>cheap. The chemical companies can supply tons of the catalyst, and only 50 to >>100 grams of the catalyst is need for each small cell, so this would make an >>ideal demonstration cell. If we determine it works, we hope to license the >>device, manufacture and sell hundreds of demonstration kits within one month. >>We move fast here at Infinite Energy! > Horace Heffner wrote: >This is really exciting news. And it runs above that magic 100 C. Could >make for a good electric vehicle battery charger. > Very exciting indeed! Was there any analysis of He isotope ratio yet? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 19:46:38 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08462; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3543F0E8.E7E loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:43:52 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: <57c7db95.3543eb32 aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------75EC489A67C0" Resent-Message-ID: <"5JLrk.0.542.-y-Gr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17902 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------75EC489A67C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who cannot read Vince's Lotus file (myself included), I replotted the data from his Saturday experiment using Excel, then annotated it with Powerpoint, and saved it as an Acrobat (pdf) file. The pdf is attached to this message. Looks very exciting. Once we get the input power plot as well, we can estimate the COP. -- Bob --------------75EC489A67C0 Content-Type: application/pdf; x-mac-type="50444620"; x-mac-creator="4341524F" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="vince.pdf" JVBERi0xLjEgDSXi48/TIA02IDAgb2JqDTw8DS9MZW5ndGggNyAwIFINL0ZpbHRlciAvTFpX RGVjb2RlIA0+Pg1zdHJlYW0NCoAMhAShADTjBRmNhBCRANxkMBANRpEDkZQaVxAboKLRsMxc NRBHI9IByMRzDRnJ4qDTnBRiIDPCIVDIdEIlFIsZoKUYKMBcMBgNBAd5dMIKOKENxuIBtJhA NBrS5XOgbAjVPRcOBxS5iDRiNJONBsOBAbYKNRzS7FZDZZ7SIK/ArbXrBcBpcpddbWILmZhU DYhV69Q6xICPeRzH6eNhvirMDbRjZBYslfIKU7dlcpjsziq+McVc8xkLTnhpoJBj6/iZBn9D l8RptRZdjk8Zrwbo59QKFRMAIMPdMTQIFmxyObJqrBPxhAtdx7ZsLoNuZztOLuhtK8NY9xLt oOzorz1O9D+p2dV3OqIPN2ORltz4/WMod7uTLvV5fr4elX/I5qFoS+ztBi/MABnAT+Pi6b1o mGUBvS7sAQdAbxQY7zjPfCMGtvBTRtW9bnw0zrvRE6MFxBEoZsa9DYxKGgaQq/obtBFUWRGr 0aRDGEZRQHMHxtCCXR/HcYw8goZK/EMVyEqslRfIz3wsGQZxjIMWqrKsix60YZBq/7nSZLEv TAu0oxPLqlSXG77qrNUoS5JDjzXJoZTnOEjgaGckzpLE9xrACvzO+DRyrQEwzY7VDS3PKEwl 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Ug0vSW5mbyAxIDAgUg0vSUQgWzxkYjY5ZDIyNzk1YzI0YzFjODgyNzgzYWJlODZjMzZhOD48 ZGI2OWQyMjc5NWMyNGMxYzg4Mjc4M2FiZTg2YzM2YTg+XQ0+Pg1zdGFydHhyZWYNMTc3OTAN JSVFT0YN --------------75EC489A67C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 21:07:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA31412; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:06:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:06:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:03:19 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: TK cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: generating muons In-Reply-To: <3543917D.9D5 spu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"kfJL63.0.jg7.dG0Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17903 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, TK wrote: > How would I go about generating muons and then focusing them into a > concentrated beam?? Any help would be appreciated. I am looking for a > solution that would be at least somewhat energy efficient. > You'd need at least 1 billion dollars plus the exclusive use of about 50 first rate accelerator physicists. It is a subject of high interest these days as Physicists begin to ponder what to do after the LHC (14,000 GeV protons on 14,000 GeV protons) currently being built at CERN. One idea is to build a muon collider that has high on its list of requirements, an intense focussed beam of muons. This is not easy to do. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 21:37:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03344; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:34:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:34:41 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:32:21 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Update on Photovoltaics. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"GI1bS2.0.4q.Wh0Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17904 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: HI Everyone, well another year has passed in the efforts to produce energy sources with free (or almost free) fuel. I received the 1997 Annual Report from the University of New South Wales Special Rsearch Centre today. The world market for Photovoltaics grew by 38% last year (measured by installed capacity) which is likely to sustained or increased for the forseeable future. This in turn will lead to drops in the cost of "conventional" single crystal PV's. BP-solar, the world market leader, plans to ramp up production from 10 meagwatts to 1 giga-watt over the next 6 years as the price for their PV's drop from $5 per peak watt to $1 per peak watt, which is fully competitve with coal powered plants. However Gas-powered plants and improved efficiencies may push the full break-even point with conventional electricity to around $0.50 per peak watt. In any case, improved incremental evolution of technology in this field will get us all non-polluting energy in about 9 years. Meanwhile, Pacific Solar, has made impressive progress in their ambitious 5-year project to produce cheap silicon on glass PV's. They're now 3 years into their project and apparently 6 months ahead of schedule according to the very sketchy information from the Annual Report. The pilot plant is under construction and should be pumping out silicon on glass PV's by years end. The plant aims to produce PV's at greater than 15% efficiency for less than $1 per peak watt. My contacts in Pacifc Solar won't tell me much else except that they are smiling. We shall see. The report is a great read. Lots of good Physics combined with a healthy dose of market driven reality. They realize they're not the only player in town. In any case the end of the carbon era is already in sight. Cheers Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 21:39:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03699; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:37:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:37:18 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001501bd7195$ad55f780$658cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , "TK" Cc: Subject: Re: generating muons Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:33:41 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"8ptke.0.Uv.zj0Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17905 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Martin Sevior To: TK Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 10:07 PM Subject: Re: generating muons > > >On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, TK wrote: > >> How would I go about generating muons and then focusing them into a >> concentrated beam?? Any help would be appreciated. I am looking for a >> solution that would be at least somewhat energy efficient. >> > >You'd need at least 1 billion dollars plus the exclusive use of about 50 >first rate accelerator physicists. It is a subject of high interest these >days as Physicists begin to ponder what to do after the LHC (14,000 GeV >protons on 14,000 GeV protons) currently being built at CERN. One idea is >to build a muon collider that has high on its list of requirements, an >intense focussed beam of muons. This is not easy to do. Spoilsport! :-) FJSp > >Martin Sevior > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 21:50:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26073; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980426214347.00793640 kfalls.net> X-Sender: me2 kfalls.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:43:47 -0700 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: D Evans Subject: Re: generating muons In-Reply-To: References: <3543917D.9D5 spu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"-OJoj3.0.JN6.ts0Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17906 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: we will credit you i do not show you as being billed on your credit card for next month billing was sent in today so you should have mays paid for is this coorect Don At 03:03 PM 4/27/98 +1000, you wrote: > > >On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, TK wrote: > >> How would I go about generating muons and then focusing them into a >> concentrated beam?? Any help would be appreciated. I am looking for a >> solution that would be at least somewhat energy efficient. >> > >You'd need at least 1 billion dollars plus the exclusive use of about 50 >first rate accelerator physicists. It is a subject of high interest these >days as Physicists begin to ponder what to do after the LHC (14,000 GeV >protons on 14,000 GeV protons) currently being built at CERN. One idea is >to build a muon collider that has high on its list of requirements, an >intense focussed beam of muons. This is not easy to do. > >Martin Sevior > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 21:55:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06807; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:53:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:53:02 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:52:29 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"qW7Li1.0.Hg1.jy0Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17907 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-26 22:38:30 EDT, you write: > Looks very exciting. Once we get the input power plot as well, we can > estimate the COP. > -- Bob Yes Bob, I'm working up a new power supply for the reactor tube. I want it to run up around 1000 deg C. I have this feeling that I just seen the tip of the iceberg so to speak. Going through Dr. Mills writups, I see he makes references to the great heat of the suns corona. This effect just may need really high temperatures in a H plasma to really turn on. The 1200 volt power supply borrowed from a microwave oven puts out WAY too much current in it's raw state. 20 minutes ago I hooked up one of my early build reactor tubes, pulled it down to 27 in Hg indicated, and fired it up. Switch off in less than a second because if I had let it run, it would have blown for sure. I see Mouser Electronics has a 12 amp variac from Staco for 137 bucks. Sigh...there goes another overtime check. You think I should also be looking for an AC wattmeter? Would this be ok for measuring input power? One other question addressed to all Vorts: Since I'm no going to try DC power to the tube, and, given that the K needs to be doubly ionized, and, the K sits in the bottom end of the tube around the lower electrode; should the lower electrode be negative or positive? Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas, Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 21:58:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07720; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:56:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:56:48 -0700 Message-ID: <35441027.1837 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:57:11 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Update on Photovoltaics. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3kZIy.0.Tu1.F01Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17908 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > The plant aims to produce PV's at greater than 15% efficiency for less > than $1 per peak watt. My contacts in Pacifc Solar won't tell me much > else except that they are smiling. This is very good news, Martin! But on a somber note, the nuke source of the energy sprays the Earth with reactor "waste" every day and the radiation from the reactor gives thousands of people skin cancer every year. I'm afraid we'll need to shut that reactor down - it's just too dangerous. ||||||| / \ <---- Stenger enjoying the O| O O |O warm spring sunshine, | O | less his cranial \ \_/ / radiation shield. \___/ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 22:56:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03877; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35441C68.158B loc1.tandem.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 21:49:28 -0800 From: Bob Horst Reply-To: bhorst loc1.tandem.com Organization: Tandem Computers Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"6njgC1.0.Vy.vg1Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17909 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > Yes Bob, I'm working up a new power supply for the reactor tube. I want > it to run up around 1000 deg C. I have this feeling that I just seen the tip > of the iceberg so to speak. It is hard to say if you will do better at higher temperatures. At ICCF, Case presented his experiments that are a little different (without K), but he was rather adamant that his effective temperature range was 150-250 deg C. (That is what my notes say, although Jed reported 150-200 C.) Since your graph already shows a dramatic effect happening in this range, you might want to try to understand that before heading off into very high T. > You think I should also be > looking for an AC wattmeter? Would this be ok for measuring input > power? Scott is the expert on this. I talked to him at ICCF about the difficulty in measuring power input to ultrasonic experiments, and he said he had found a great (but expensive) AC power meter, but some other ones selling for >$2K were very far off in some cases. A good one might be outside of your budget, and a cheap one may not give very accurate results depending on the V and I waveforms. Here is another idea. You have a device with very interesting behavior, but you need good calorimetry and power measurement. Scott has the opposite. Would it be possible for you to take your device to Austin for a few days (if Scott is willing)? If travel expense is a problem, I bet we could pass the hat and get some Vorts to finance your trip. I would gladly toss in my $25 worth. We have been waiting nine long years for one of these on-line experiments to bear fruit, and this finally might be it. > One other question addressed to all Vorts: Since I'm now going to try > DC power to the tube, and, given that the K needs to be doubly ionized, > and, the K sits in the bottom end of the tube around the lower electrode; > should the lower electrode be negative or positive? > I cannot answer the question about ionization, but DC powering of the tube would make power input measurments much simpler. This path may be more promising than trying to get accurate AC power measurement. Of course there are only two choices of polarity, so whatever the theory says, you might as well just try them both and see if there is any difference. -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Sun Apr 26 23:00:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16820; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:58:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:58:05 -0700 Message-ID: <35441E86.23AD interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:58:30 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3IWaa.0.h64.iv1Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17910 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > The 1200 volt power supply borrowed from a microwave oven puts out > WAY too much current in it's raw state. 20 minutes ago I hooked up > one of my early build reactor tubes, pulled it down to 27 in Hg indicated, > and fired it up. Switch off in less than a second because if I had let it > run, it would have blown for sure. > > I see Mouser Electronics has a 12 amp variac from Staco for 137 bucks. > Sigh...there goes another overtime check. You think I should also be > looking for an AC wattmeter? Would this be ok for measuring input > power? Man, Vince, you're spending money like water - you're going to give us cheapskate amateurs a bad name! How about a full-wave bridge rectifier of Radio Shack 1000 volt diodes. You'll need about 2 in each leg of the bridge, I think (8 total) with equalizing resistors across each diode. This will get you full-wave DC as opposed to the half-wave from the raw supply. Then, if you could get some 300 or 400 volt electrolytic capacitors, series them with more divider resistors across each, you would wind up with fairly low ripple DC. You might need a series bulb between the rectifier and the filter caps to prevent a turn-on surge when the caps are first charged. Then, series a string of 10, 100 watt light bulbs with your reactor tube - include a 1 ohm resistor for a current shunt. Feed the filtered DC to the tube + dropping lights and see where you stand on current and volts. To increase the current, replace a light bulb with a 10 amp fuse as a jumper until you get enough drive for the tube. The bulbs make a pretty good ballast resistor because the resistance goes up and down with current. You could also try one light bulb in series with the primary of the transformer. You can use 25, 40, 60, 100, 150, 200, 300, etc. watt bulbs to adjust the drive to your tube. I use a primary ballast like this on my capacitor bank which I want to charge to 1100 volts DC. My charger is a low resistance transformer + full-wave bridge which would kill itself fast if I put it across the 97,600 MFD bank with zero volts on it. Ceramic sockets are cheap at the electrical section of your local building supply. And, when you are running, you have plenty of light in your lab area. If too much light - use aluminum foil with care. Light banks always enhance the mad scientist look of the lab too! Smooth DC power is easy to meter (ring up bucks saved on AC power meter) and light bulbs and sockets are less bucks than the big variac. I have details on my ballasted 1200 volt charger if you're interested. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 02:47:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01834; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 02:43:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 02:43:35 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <005101bd71c0$5a0e7b80$658cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Update on Photovoltaics. Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:39:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"rYVFs2.0.aS.6D5Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17911 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 10:58 PM Subject: Re: Update on Photovoltaics. >Martin Sevior wrote: >> > The plant aims to produce PV's at greater than 15% efficiency for less >> than $1 per peak watt. My contacts in Pacifc Solar won't tell me much >> else except that they are smiling. > >This is very good news, Martin! > >But on a somber note, the nuke source of the energy sprays the Earth >with reactor "waste" every day and the radiation from the reactor gives >thousands of people skin cancer every year. I'm afraid we'll need to >shut that reactor down - it's just too dangerous. Out this way they shut it down every night,Frank. (Great "Smilely",Too) :-) Regards, Frederick > > ||||||| > / \ <---- Stenger enjoying the > O| O O |O warm spring sunshine, > | O | less his cranial > \ \_/ / radiation shield. > \___/ > >Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 03:54:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21001; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 03:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:50:31 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: WATER in terms of Oil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"aAtv1.0._75.nD6Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17912 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, FACTS . I never said that the energy density would be high (lots of real estate needed). . I really just wanted to have a cheap way of desalination. . I also want to prove you can do a lot more with the second law that people think - paraphrasing Bauer, one trusts the Gibbs formulation. . I really believe a device along the lines of Bauer capacitor is more desirable with direct conversion to electricity. Also, and I consider this honourable on my part, the water desaln. system is my calling card. If all works out, I'll have made my name and most importantly, some money so that I can set up a lab and study what ever takes my fancy. I'm not going to force people to subsidise me. Once again, the energy density would be low BUT what are we going to do when all your ou devices churn out waste heat and pollute the planet? Eg. London is a good 2-3K higher than the countryside (and much worse in summer). Heat pollution damages the weather, damages the natural flora and fauna and you get all kinds of creepy-crawlies like mosquitos and super germs. To finish, when I have raised enough money, I will look into CF, gas cells, EM anomolies and support those (heroes) who are working their bolloxs off. Enlightened self interest and true philantropy. Remi. P.S. When you're doing something that is truly difficult (esp. if it looks deceptively simple) see if you can still think when you've been pushed to the limit. Especially if thought's the only thing you really value in life. Its a bit like a sportsman who trains for years then breaks his leg. He needs a lot of courage to pick the most productive options and then pursue them. Only his terms are good enough, no-one can really guide him as he finds what he really values. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 05:10:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28020; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980427120640.00683718 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:06:40 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Resent-Message-ID: <"M7GsF3.0.ir6.zK7Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17913 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 07:45 PM 4/26/98 -0600, Fred Sparber wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: Horace Heffner >To: vortex-l eskimo.com >Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 5:43 PM >Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts > > >Horace wrote: > >> >>This is really exciting news. And it runs above that magic 100 C. Could >>make for a good electric vehicle battery charger. >> >>Thanks for all the exciting abstracts. Hopefully a sure sign of the end of >>the carbon age. > >Maybe just the end of the "Carbon Support", >H2 or D2 + C ----> CHx or CDx + Heat! :-) > >Regards, Frederick > >> >>Regards, >> >>Horace Heffner >> >> Case ran mass specs on the gases and looked for CH4 but did not see any corresponding peaks, he did see He^4 at about 100ppm in the exit gas. He did not know whether C + 2H2 ----> CH4 was endothermic or exothermic. He mentioned that he gets about 0.1 watt per gram of catalyst and that at the current price of Pd this yield a process would not be economical. He is trying to improve the wattage yield to at least 1 watt per gram. He mentioned that he is getting slight improvements by special catalyst preparation techniques. He tried scaling up the tests 50-fold without success. Pt, Ir and Rh work also but Pd seems to work best. Temperatures above 250 deg C sinter the metal catalysts and thereby losing catalytic activity. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 05:32:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29827; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:21:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"wv_bU1.0.uH7.Mf7Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17914 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:52 AM 4/27/98, VCockeram wrote: >I see Mouser Electronics has a 12 amp variac from Staco for 137 bucks. >Sigh...there goes another overtime check. You think I should also be >looking for an AC wattmeter? Would this be ok for measuring input >power? The variac only accurately controls input voltage. A gas discharge tube, or any complex circuit, will distort the I vs V curve, and thus the power factor. You need to measure I and V and caluclate I*V many times each cycle to get true power. If any electronic whizzes out there like John Schnurer have a cheap simple way to do this, especially with clear plans or in kit form, I would be interested also. Accurately measuring electrical input power is getting to be a more common problem for vorts lately it seems. >One other question addressed to all Vorts: Since I'm no going to try >DC power to the tube, and, given that the K needs to be doubly ionized, >and, the K sits in the bottom end of the tube around the lower electrode; >should the lower electrode be negative or positive? The K should be at the anode (+) end. The electrons are stripped from atoms at the anode end, ionizing and repelling them. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 06:06:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10184; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:04:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:04:53 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <006c01bd71dc$77c53a80$658cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:59:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"oRpQ22.0.2V2.q98Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17915 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Edwin Strojny To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 6:07 AM Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Ed Strojny wrote: > >Case ran mass specs on the gases and looked for CH4 but did not see any >corresponding peaks, he did see He^4 at about 100ppm in the exit gas. The Gibbs Free energy for 2 H2 + C = CH4 is about 12 Kcal/mole. For 3 H2 + 2C = C2H6 (ethane) about 7,900 Kcal/mole. For each CH2 unit in a HydroCarbon about 2.0 Kcal/mole. The 1% Pd catalyst on the enormous high surface area of activated Carbon could trap the CxHy species that gave the heat. A tough one to nail down. The "He4" could be a D2 molecule (mass 4 same as He4). Hard to find H2-D2-free Carbon since Carbon comes from Hydrocarbons-Carbohydrates in the first place. > >He did not know whether C + 2H2 ----> CH4 was endothermic or exothermic. Exothermic, as stated above, as is the hydrogenation of coal to synthetic fuels. > >He mentioned that he gets about 0.1 watt per gram of catalyst and that at >the current price of Pd this yield a process would not be economical. He is >trying to improve the wattage yield to at least 1 watt per gram. He >mentioned that he is getting slight improvements by special catalyst >preparation techniques. He tried scaling up the tests 50-fold without >success. Pt, Ir and Rh work also but Pd seems to work best. Temperatures >above 250 deg C sinter the metal catalysts and thereby losing catalytic >activity. A lot of expensive analysis left to do on this one, Ed. Regards, Frederick > >Ed Strojny > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 06:14:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11365; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:13:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:13:12 -0700 Message-ID: <35448482.F80 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:13:38 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [Fwd: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"um0GM1.0.Un2.dH8Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17916 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Message-ID: <35441E86.23AD interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:58:30 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VCockeram wrote: > > The 1200 volt power supply borrowed from a microwave oven puts out > WAY too much current in it's raw state. 20 minutes ago I hooked up > one of my early build reactor tubes, pulled it down to 27 in Hg indicated, > and fired it up. Switch off in less than a second because if I had let it > run, it would have blown for sure. > > I see Mouser Electronics has a 12 amp variac from Staco for 137 bucks. > Sigh...there goes another overtime check. You think I should also be > looking for an AC wattmeter? Would this be ok for measuring input > power? Man, Vince, you're spending money like water - you're going to give us cheapskate amateurs a bad name! How about a full-wave bridge rectifier of Radio Shack 1000 volt diodes. You'll need about 2 in each leg of the bridge, I think (8 total) with equalizing resistors across each diode. This will get you full-wave DC as opposed to the half-wave from the raw supply. Then, if you could get some 300 or 400 volt electrolytic capacitors, series them with more divider resistors across each, you would wind up with fairly low ripple DC. You might need a series bulb between the rectifier and the filter caps to prevent a turn-on surge when the caps are first charged. Then, series a string of 10, 100 watt light bulbs with your reactor tube - include a 1 ohm resistor for a current shunt. Feed the filtered DC to the tube + dropping lights and see where you stand on current and volts. To increase the current, replace a light bulb with a 10 amp fuse as a jumper until you get enough drive for the tube. The bulbs make a pretty good ballast resistor because the resistance goes up and down with current. You could also try one light bulb in series with the primary of the transformer. You can use 25, 40, 60, 100, 150, 200, 300, etc. watt bulbs to adjust the drive to your tube. I use a primary ballast like this on my capacitor bank which I want to charge to 1100 volts DC. My charger is a low resistance transformer + full-wave bridge which would kill itself fast if I put it across the 97,600 MFD bank with zero volts on it. Ceramic sockets are cheap at the electrical section of your local building supply. And, when you are running, you have plenty of light in your lab area. If too much light - use aluminum foil with care. Light banks always enhance the mad scientist look of the lab too! Smooth DC power is easy to meter (ring up bucks saved on AC power meter) and light bulbs and sockets are less bucks than the big variac. I have details on my ballasted 1200 volt charger if you're interested. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 06:20:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05567; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:23:56 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Resent-Message-ID: <"JNgSy3.0.vM1.TM8Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17917 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:06 AM 4/27/98, Edwin Strojny wrote: >Case ran mass specs on the gases and looked for CH4 but did not see any >corresponding peaks, he did see He^4 at about 100ppm in the exit gas. >He did not know whether C + 2H2 ----> CH4 was endothermic or exothermic. This is a problem. Maybe Case had a mental lapse nder pressure? I could understand - it happens to me all the time, without the pressure. 8^) Enthalpy of formation of CH4 is -74.4 kJ/mol. For each 12.011 grams of carbon in Case's catalyst 74.4 kJ is released upon the formation of CH4. How can such a study be done without accounting for the reaction energy? D2 would be slightly different, but not different to Case's degree of accuracy (ignoring 5 deg. C differences.) He does say D2 is much warmer. Case uses 50 to 100 g of catalyst per cell. His catalyst is almost entirely carbon. This could mean up to about 600 kJ chemical energy released per cell. > >He mentioned that he gets about 0.1 watt per gram of catalyst and that at At 6 kJ per gram of catalyst Case should be able to sustain that 0.1 W/g output on a purely chemical basis for 60,000 seconds, over 16 hours. At least it won't take long to go "beyond chemical." Also, chemicla reactions are not likely to account for the x-rays, etc. >the current price of Pd this yield a process would not be economical. He is >trying to improve the wattage yield to at least 1 watt per gram. He >mentioned that he is getting slight improvements by special catalyst >preparation techniques. He tried scaling up the tests 50-fold without >success. Pt, Ir and Rh work also but Pd seems to work best. Temperatures >above 250 deg C sinter the metal catalysts and thereby losing catalytic >activity. That's a good sign - because the chemical reaction should be greatly accelerated above 250 C. Hopefully, I didn't bungle any calculations. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 06:20:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12031; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:18:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:18:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:14:30 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Case: 150 - 250 deg C Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804270917_MC2-3B16-CA9F compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"wnPp8.0.qx2.TM8Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17918 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex Bob Horst writes: At ICCF, Case presented his experiments that are a little different (without K), but he was rather adamant that his effective temperature range was 150-250 deg C. (That is what my notes say, although Jed reported 150-200 C.) I got that wrong. It should be 150 to 250 deg C, as Bob says. Case said that above 250 deg C the metal is sintered, and the catalytic effect is permanently lost. Someone at the conference told me he thinks that temperature is not high enough to sinter palladium, so perhaps the carbon substrate is destroyed. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 06:53:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10251; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35448CBE.3EB1 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:48:46 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"3vShO1.0.2W2.Mq8Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17919 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > If any electronic whizzes out there like John > Schnurer have a cheap simple way to do this, especially with clear plans or > in kit form, I would be interested also. Accurately measuring electrical > input power is getting to be a more common problem for vorts lately it > seems. How true, Horace! For goodness sake, if the experiment will run on DC, then invest a few bucks in a filtered DC power supply! If you have a transformer, Radio Shack 1000 PRV, 2.5 amp (I think!) will do just fine in a full-wave bridge rectifier. Series the diodes until your voltage is satisfied - shunt each diode in series with a resistor = 500 X PRV of rectifier (for 1000 volt, = 500,000 ohms) to equalize the back voltage when the diodes are shut off. Filter the rectifier output with a series string of high-voltage (300 > 400 volt) electrolytic capacitors (I bought mine at R & D Electronics in Cleveland - have phone nos.). Shunt each capacitor in series with a resistor equal to 100 ohms per volt of supply voltage to assure a uniform division of voltage between the caps. USE IDENTICAL CAPS FOR THIS. Make sure the shunt resistors are rugged and good for the power needed. These resistors can serve as the "bleeder" resistors for the supply. If you want to add a voltage regulator, buy a copy of the Radio Amateur's Handbook and have at it. But, if you can brute-force it, use ballast resistors to stabilize the current and enjoy the pleasure of measuring nice DC power. Less EMI into your thermal instrumentation too! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 07:01:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18982; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:00:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:00:11 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <007a01bd71e4$4b4f1cc0$658cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Cc: "George" Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF& abstracts Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:54:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"qVWol1.0.We4.gz8Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17920 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go,Ed. Carbon-Carbon & Carbon-Hydrogen Bond Energies: C-C 59 Kcal/mole, C=C 100 Kcal/mole C***C (triple/alkyne bond) 123 Kcal/mole C-H 87 Kcal/mole H H H H H H | | | | | | H-C-C-C-C-C=C-H H | | | | | | H-C-C-C-C-C***C-C***C-C***C-C***C-C=C-H | | | | H H H C=C-H | | H H Tell me what your "Free O/U" energy is. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 07:21:30 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14566; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <35449303.3506C00 css.mot.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:15:31 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Discussion Group - Vortex Subject: Faraday Cage Construction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Q-Xby2.0.WZ3.mF9Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17921 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vorts- Some sites that might be of interest: Any recomendations from the peanut gallery on where to read up on design considerations? I am also considering a domestic remodeling project. No sense endangering others with my foolishness.... 8^) John E. Steck -----------------------------------o}{: Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville "It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes, but the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." - The Sandman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 07:42:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17567; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <009801bd71e8$d5dfb080$658cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:28:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"Y5D6T.0.NI4.3U9Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17922 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Horace wrote: >At 8:06 AM 4/27/98, Edwin Strojny wrote: > >>Case ran mass specs on the gases and looked for CH4 but did not see any >>corresponding peaks, he did see He^4 at about 100ppm in the exit gas. >>He did not know whether C + 2H2 ----> CH4 was endothermic or exothermic. > >This is a problem. Maybe Case had a mental lapse under pressure? I could >understand - it happens to me all the time, without the pressure. 8^) >Enthalpy of formation of CH4 is -74.4 kJ/mol. For each 12.011 grams of >carbon in Case's catalyst 74.4 kJ is released upon the formation of CH4. You're getting to near the point, Horace. With a 150-250 deg C heater the Carbon-Carbon and Carbon-Hydrogen Bonds can cycle from Endothermic to Exothermic. IOW you just cannot pin down anything with the input heater running. The Carbon (Graphite) moderated Reactors are known to "cook" for months a a given temp then suddenly exotherm as the Endothermic double and triple bonds revereted to single Carbon-Carbon bonds. Acetylene, H-C***C-H is a very endothermic compound and will explode to H2 and single bonded C-C compounds or it will exothermally react with water to form aldehydes and Sugar! Had great exchanges with Carl Sagan on this in regard to polyacetylenes from and Cyanogens (-C***N)from SuperNova dust exothermally forming Amino Acids,Proteins and the Nucleotides for RNA and DNA in the primodial oceans. :-) The point is that with a few grams of carbon and a few micrograms of hydrogen (or deuterium) and a few watts of heat the possibilities are practically limitless. > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 08:17:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24427; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427100906.00ccbbc4 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:09:06 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"cozRo2.0.bz5.v_9Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17923 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince wrote: >Strangly, the brightest arc (and temperature) happens when I just adjust the >frequency for the brightest arc. At that point, the input voltage is at it >lowest point. probably because your tube is drawing maximum current at that point. Vince, at these frequencies, your only hopes for input power measurements are: 1. Dedicated power analyzer with adequate bandwidth (>$2000) 2. Digital scope monitoring both V & I, multiplying in real time and avg'g. 3. Measure the 60Hz AC input power and hope for constant power supply efficiency...or large excess heat! The latter is the only cheap way to go...unless you can borrow 1 or 2. A clunky but reliable way to do this is to use a standard residential watthour meter and a stopwatch. Herbach and Rademan sells a 120VAC-15A one for $30 (and a box for $10). 1 kwh rotates the wheel once. Measure how long that takes and divide 3600 by the number of seconds to get watts. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 09:44:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02090; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:39:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:39:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:34:18 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: IEEE Internat. Ultrasound Conf. Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804271237_MC2-3B23-FCC9 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"cMxV21.0.aW.qIBHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17925 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Here is an e-mail message I recieved from an ICCF-7 participant. Yasuhito Takeuchi, Ph.D (take rd.geyms.med.ge.com) IEEE interntional ultrasound meeting Dear colleagues, Happy having nice meting in vancouver. Just came back to Japan a couple of hours ago directly from the Harborview Room. As I mentioned, sono-dynamic or mechanical cavitatory fusionologists in our community should show up and speak something in cmming IEEE ultrasound meeting to be held Oct. 5-8 in Sendai japan. For its details please peep in: http://www.adsa.uiuc.edu/ieee98/call.html Abstact deadline is May 01. Electronic submission is recommended. On June 13 we (me) will do Technical Program Committee meeting, which will be the 1st toll gate for you. See you soon again in Sendai. Yasuhito. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 09:44:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01972; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:38:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:38:43 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:33:54 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Kinetic Furnace testing plans Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804271237_MC2-3B23-FCC6 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"0WgG21.0.eU.HIBHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17924 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex During ICCF7 I discussed methods of testing the Kinetic Furnace with Mike Schaffer, Scott Little, Gene Mallove and others. Here is our preliminary plan, subject to change. (I call this "our plan" and I say "we" will do this and that, but actually Gene will do all the work and I'll take a share of the glory.) Air Flow Calorimetry We will verify excess energy using standard HVAC air flow calorimetry, the same method we used in Georgia. This can be done quickly. If it shows excess heat, we will move on to water flow calorimetry, which is more conventional and precise. Combined Water and Air Flow Calorimetry Gene wants to build an insulated plywood box larger than the Kinetic Furnace. It will be insulated on the inside and outside, with heavy duty reflective house insulation. One side of the box will open (like a door), and the Furnace and calibration joule heaters will be placed on rollers so the equipment can be moved in to and out of the box. The door will have rubber gaskets. It may have a small plexiglass window (an observation port) covered on the outside with a flap of insulation. An automobile radiator -- the calorimetry heat exchanger -- will be placed inside the box. Water will flow through it. This should not be confused with the other radiator installed in the Kinetic Furnace itself. The Kinetic Furnace radiator radiates heat, and this second calorimetry radiator will absorb it, so it will really be a reverse radiator. The flow rate should go as high as 4 liters per minute. Even this may not be enough. If the machine develops 8 KW (114 Kcal per minute) the Delta T at 4 l/min will be 29 deg C, which is too high. This would make the inside of the box quite warm, which has three disadvantages: 1. It is best to keep the temperature inside the box close to the ambient room temperature, to minimize heat loss through the walls of the box. As much heat as possible should be recovered by the cooling water. 2. High temperatures might damage the machine. 3. Excess heat effects like cold fusion sometimes exhibit positive feedback, in which increasing temperatures above 60 to 80 deg C cause an exponential increase in energy output. I have no idea whether this machine will do anything of the sort. I would like to find out in a careful, deliberate test, not by accident. A C.O.P. exceeding 6.0 has been observed with this machine when it was operated at high temperatures. Input power will be measured with an Amprobe DM-II electric power data logger. Inlet and outlet temperatures will each be measured with two thermocouples and a mercury thermometer, installed in a glass bulb supplied by Mark Hugo. The flow rate will be measured with a meter and with a stopwatch and graduated cylinder. Ambient air temperature, the air temperature inside the box at three locations, and the surface temperature of the machine will also be measured. The water temperature inside the machine can be read off of a dial thermometer. We do not want to replace it with a thermocouple yet, because we do not want to disturb the machine. The air in the box will be well stirred by the Kinetic Furnace blower. Since we own the Davis Instruments Anemometer/Thermometer Data Logger, I suppose we might as well install it at the machine outlet duct (inside the box), to perform air flow calorimetry. This would give us a calorimeter inside a calorimeter. I am not sure how many data ports the computer A/D card has, but if possible it should record: 1. Ambrobe DM-II readings 2. The two inlet thermocouple readings averaged 3. The two outlet thermocouple readings averaged 4. Water flow rate 5. Ambient air temperature 6. Machine surface temperature 7. Box air temperature at the roof of the box 8. Box air temperature at the machine inlet duct 9. Box air temperature at the machine outlet duct 10. Air flow at the machine outlet duct Item 1 - 4 are used for water flow calorimetry, items 8 - 10 are used for air flow calorimetry. I believe at this flow rate it would be a bad idea to use a steady stream of tap water through the cooling loop. A closed loop would be better. Here is the path the water would follow, starting at a cooler: 1. A laboratory cooler, set a few degrees above ambient, at around 25 deg C. I hope we can get a reliable, used high capacity cooler. It should have a powerful pump, because the loop will be long and convoluted. It should be capable of removing a couple of kilowatts of heat at least. 2. Uninsulated plastic pipe. 3. The inlet glass bulb with the thermocouples and the mercury thermometer, placed near the box. Heat losses from the cooler to the glass bulb do not matter, as long as they are reasonably consistent. 4. A short length of uninsulated pipe leading into the box, attached to the radiator inside the box. 5. The radiator, to capture heat. 6. Another short length of uninsulated pipe leading to the outlet glass bulb with the thermocouples and thermometer. Heat losses beyond the outlet thermocouples are encouraged. 7. Yet another automobile radiator may be needed outside the box to shed the heat, because laboratory coolers do not usually have the capacity to remove 8 KW of heat. The external radiator might be placed outside the building in summer. If it does not cool the water sufficiently, we might spray a little water on the outside and blow it with a fan. The system may need three radiators in all: one for the Kinetic Furnace water; one to pick up the heat inside the box; and one to shed the heat outside the box. 8. Return to cooler, which should have enough capacity to remove the remaining heat, bringing the temperature back down to 25 deg C again. >From time to time a little Clorox should be added to the water to keep algae and bacteria from clogging the flow. Experimental Method Calibration Run: The blower and joule heater will be turned on, the Kinetic Furnace rotor will be left off. Power will be set at 1 KW and held for 4 to 8 hours. Then it will be stepped up to 2 KW, then 3, 4 and 5 KW. The cooling water Delta T and the air temperature in the box should both increase in a linear fashion. Test Run: The Kinetic Furnace rotor will be turned on. After the machine water reaches the recommended temperature in about five minutes, the blower will be turned on and left on for the duration of the test. In a commercial installation the blower turns on and off under thermostatic control, as the machine cycles on and off: each time the rotor turns on, the blower waits for the water to reach the excess heat onset temperature. Since the rotor will remain on that will not be necessary. The cooling water loop will be turned on and the box will be sealed. Some heat may be lost while the door is open, and some may be stored up when the machine starts up. This will make no difference because we plan to run for weeks uninterrupted, as it has been in previous tests. The "stored heat" hypothesis will not be an issue. >From time to time during the run, a two-hour 1 or 2 KW calibration pulse from the joule heater will be added. Heavy Water Test If the first run produces excess heat, the machine will be opened up and a small amount of heavy water will be added. If this machine works the way Stringham's cavitation devices do, heavy water should increase the excess heat tremendously, and it might cause heat after death. This test should be performed with caution. It should be noted that Stringham's device is far more efficient than the Kinetic Furnace, with a better input to output ratio. The Kinetic Furnace has some advantages: it works at higher power levels and higher temperatures, and it is rugged. Safety Concerns I think it is unlikely that machines of this nature produce measurable radiation, but to ensure safety a radiation meter will be placed by the machine at all times. The machine and the test apparatus will cause some conventional dangers from hot water and heavy electric motors. Earlier prototypes had rubber hoses between the rotor and heat exchanger. Occasionally these popped off, shooting blistering steam across the room. This model is equipped with heavy duty woven steel hoses, which look safer to me. The electric motor will be operated in close proximity to the water flow calorimetry pipes and heat exchanger, so care must be taken to ensure that no leaks develop inside the box. Finally, as noted above, I do not think it would be wise to let the temperature inside the box climb too high. I would keep it below 50 deg C, by increasing the water flow if necessary. An emergency thermostat inside the box should cut off power to the rotor if the air temperature in the box exceeds 50 deg C. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 09:49:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04372; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:46:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:46:27 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980427161817.00698f70 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:18:17 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"Ql1EH1.0.e31.VPBHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17926 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:09 AM 4/27/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >Vince wrote: > >The latter is the only cheap way to go...unless you can borrow 1 or 2. A >clunky but reliable way to do this is to use a standard residential >watthour meter and a stopwatch. Herbach and Rademan sells a 120VAC-15A one >for $30 (and a box for $10). 1 kwh rotates the wheel once. Measure how >long that takes and divide 3600 by the number of seconds to get watts. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > Scott, I have that watthour meter. Are you sure that one turn on the wheel is 1 KWH? Should that be 1WH? I put a 250-watt lamp in series with the meter and it took 13.3 seconds per revolution. While on the subject, is there a way to count the revolutions by some detector and feed the results into a computer? Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 09:52:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05597; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:49:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:49:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:21:08 -0400 (EDT) From: John Schnurer To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980427100906.00ccbbc4 mail.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"SRvtR3.0.EN1.xRBHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17927 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dear Vince.... Simply measure the 110 V line input to the power supply. OR: Run the supply on a "UPS" and monitor the battery... run it in the standby mode. :OR: Power from car batteries and inverter.... measure battery drain. This will give a solid relative usage. J On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Scott Little wrote: > Vince wrote: > > >Strangly, the brightest arc (and temperature) happens when I just adjust > the >frequency for the brightest arc. At that point, the input voltage is > at it >lowest point. > > probably because your tube is drawing maximum current at that point. > > Vince, at these frequencies, your only hopes for input power measurements are: > > 1. Dedicated power analyzer with adequate bandwidth (>$2000) > 2. Digital scope monitoring both V & I, multiplying in real time and avg'g. > 3. Measure the 60Hz AC input power and hope for constant power supply > efficiency...or large excess heat! > > The latter is the only cheap way to go...unless you can borrow 1 or 2. A > clunky but reliable way to do this is to use a standard residential > watthour meter and a stopwatch. Herbach and Rademan sells a 120VAC-15A one > for $30 (and a box for $10). 1 kwh rotates the wheel once. Measure how > long that takes and divide 3600 by the number of seconds to get watts. > > > > Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 10:18:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16539; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:13:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:13:11 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08BD xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:12:19 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"lhInZ2.0.224.coBHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17928 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince, Frank The only sure way to compute your power is to use a digital oscilloscope, or a two channel A/D, one for the current into the system and the other for the voltage driving the current. A small non inductive resistor in the input lead will give you a voltage proportional to the current flowing. After you collect the data, multiply the current times the voltage at each time point to get the instantaneous power, and then sum this for the duration of the experiment to compute the energy used. The problem you are facing is that the arcs are unstable, and change with time a lot, fairly quickly. You have to run the A/D at a sample rate fast enough to get at least several samples during the changes, and you should have an input low pass filter on the A/D analog input, with a cutoff frequency equal to half the sampling frequency. I would suggest using a conventional analog oscilloscope first to observe the arc behavior, to determine what frequency sampling you need. There are a lot of good, relatively cheap A/D's on the market now, by Linear, Texas Instruments, or Burr-Brown for example, and a low pass filter is easily built up using an op-amp, which will also set the gain for you to drive the A/D in its input voltage range. Just using Fluke voltmeters (evan RMS) to measure the current and voltage won't do the trick because you loose the timing information between the voltage and current, which is all important for this type of measurements. Hank > ---------- > From: Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 1998 12:13 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode > > VCockeram wrote: > > > > Here are the numbers: > > High Voltage Primary Resistance is 9.65 ohms > > High Voltage Secondary Resistance is 19,680 ohms > > Frequency is 14,000 Hz > > Voltage measured across the High Voltage Primary is 184.0 vac > > measured with a Fluke 8060 A/AA True RMS Multimeter with the arc on. > > . > > Should I insert a say, 1 ohm resistor in the primary feed and > measure > > voltage drop across it? Would this help with computing input power? > > That might work well, Vince. I would guess that your tube load is > very nonlinear but still, resistive. So, hopefully, there is little > phase shift between secondary voltage and secondary current. > If you could use a probe or divider to measure secondary RMS volts, > the > volts X resistor drop might give a good power estimate. (What do you > think, Scott?) > Hey, EE's out there, if you have non-sinusoidal RMS voltage and > non-sinusoidal RMS current, does the product equal true power if there > is zero phase shift?? > At 14 kHz, I would try to use a non-inductive resistor, > - carbon composition?? The change in tube current vs. type of fill > gas > and/or the wall temperature might prove interesting. In other words, > does the H2 fill cause a higher power draw for some reason? Do you > have > a scope, Vince, to check for volt-current phasing? > Very neat test, Vince! > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 10:22:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23194; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08BE xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Faraday cage question Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:15:58 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"sAv_6.0.Jg5.juBHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17929 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Steve It will work both ways. Use copper screening, soldered together or at least making a good electrical contact all around the experiment, and run a good ground lead to your house ground. Hank > ---------- > From: Steve[SMTP:darklord darknet.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 1998 12:34 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com; freenrg-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Faraday cage question > > Hi all, > > I have a question about farady cages.. I'm setting up a lab in my > basement, but my computer is located right above it, and there is > another computer on the other side of the wall (wooden ceiling/floor, > cement wall. Not sure if that would make any difference).. I need a > way > to isolate the lab from the rest of the building, and I was wondering > if > a faraday cage would do this.. All the information I've seen so far on > EM shielding has been focused on shielding from outside EM fields. I'm > hoping it will work both ways, but I'm not sure.. can anyone help? > > thanks.. > -Steve > -- > darklord darknet.net | UIN: 5113616 > DarkNet Online: http://www.darknet.net > Digital Fusion: http://www.darknet.net/fusion > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 10:36:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25671; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08BF xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: [off topic] Brain in jar Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:30:05 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"XCHRQ3.0.zG6.j4CHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17930 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank I have an electric car, a Tropic/Zebra sitting in my driveway. I bought it as a commute vehicle, but it has turned into a hobby. One thing after another goes wrong. At the moment a battery terminal has melted, and the battery is in the shop, where they are recasting the terminal if they ever get around to it. Hank > ---------- > From: Francis J. Stenger[SMTP:fstenger interlaced.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 1998 4:27 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in jar > > Ed Wall wrote: > > > On the other side are the believers in a > > belevolent state. To them, I ask, why do the national labs not > provide > > support for hybrid cars (so far as I know)? It can't be because it > is > > impossible (excuse for ignoring CF) because so many successful > prototypes > > have been built. > > Actually, Ed, I spent my last years at NASA Lewis working on electric > and hybrid vehicle drive trains. I helped set up a "road load > simulator" at Lewis to test advanced drive trains. NASA, with DOE > funding, let many contracts to firms like GE, Westinghouse, TRW and > many small speciality houses working on various electric car concepts. > At Lewis, we did field work to test many electric cars from various > small makers - the best ones we could find in the late 70's and early > 80's. Lewis also managed a contract with Chrysler to help them build > and test a clean-burning regenerative gas turbine engine which was > istalled in a car for test. > > Many great sounding technologies just can not "fly" from a resource > availability standpoint when you apply them to a consumer item like > the > private car. This can be a real problem for some critical materials. > > I have been retired since 1982 but I would be surprised if the > national > labs are not doing a great deal of work RELATED TO electric and hybrid > vehicles. The large corporations could build such vehicles NOW if it > met their marketing strategies. If you really want to promote > electric > and hybrid vehicles, get out and beat the drums for higher petroleum > prices (via taxes, if necessary) to remove the incentive for sticking > with the status quo. And when you do that, listen to the vested > interests howl and watch them come after you with no holds barred! > What's the biggest growth area for vehicles - > gas hogging pickup trucks and huge SUVs for the shoppers to drive > around > the corner to the food market. As long as gasoline WITH TAX costs > less > than the same volume of bottled water, the public is not going to > perceive an energy crisis. Little gets done in this country unless it > hurts NOT to do it. Most of the "problem" is with us and the ways we > manage our daily lives - IMHO. > > Frank Stenger > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 10:41:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26775; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08C0 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: [off topic] Bain in jar Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:34:36 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"sSvfV1.0.HY6.V9CHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17931 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See a book by Greg Bear, "Permutations", I think. Hank > ---------- > From: Kurt Johmann[SMTP:johmann atlantic.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Saturday, April 25, 1998 11:26 PM > To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [off topic] Bain in jar > > Horace Heffner (hheffner corecom.net) writes: > > >At 6:07 AM 4/25/98, Ed Wall wrote: > >[snip] > >> Have you ever considered the possibility > >>that the reality of the situation is that a human brain is submerged > in a > >>jar of saline solution, being fed nutrients and oxygen by > technologically > >>advanced aliens > > > >Personally, I think it is much more likely the whole universe is a > >simulation on a big computer. At least that could explain quantum > >mechanics in part, as it is due to reaching the limits of the > simulation > >granularity. Would be handy to be able to drop into diagnostic mode > and > >modify memory at will, wouldn't it? > > I wrote an on-line book on this the-universe-is-running-on-a-computer > kind > of idea: > > http://www.webcom.com/johmann > > "At least that could explain quantum mechanics in part, as it is due > to > reaching the limits of the simulation granularity." > > Sounds good to me. > > > Kurt Johmann > -- > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 12:17:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15974; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:10:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:10:42 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:17:57 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Six novel ICCF7 abstracts Resent-Message-ID: <"vymfR.0.Rv3.nWDHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17932 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:28 AM 4/27/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] > >The point is that with a few grams of carbon and a few micrograms of >hydrogen (or deuterium) and a few watts of heat the possibilities are >practically limitless. It is also of much interest how such low energy bond shifting can make high energy x-rays. That sounds more like some kind of slow x-ray-->electron-capture--->x-ray chain reaction going on. Maybe cosmic rays initiate the process. Or maybe bond shifting somehow provides a low percentage but steady source of free electrons with enough energy to initiate an approach a nucleus and thus cause bremsstrahlung. Enough x-rays generated and re-ionization at the necessary minimum 2 KeV level is then continually supported. If that were the case, then larger should be better due to increased x-ray absorbtion, and the scaled-up version should have worked much better. Since the scaled-up version didn't work maybe interaction with the vessel walls is essential. Possibly an x-ray Fe interaction is required? There is also the possibility that an x-ray/neutron stripping chain reaction is happening, but then where are the neutrons? Lots of speculation, hypothesizing and then testing are called for, I think, but first - replication! I hope the kits are affordable, and, despite to the x-ray generation, marketable. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 12:29:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18697; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:25:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:25:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:32:26 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Kinetic Furnace testing plans Resent-Message-ID: <"mJ1b13.0.3a4.DkDHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17933 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:33 PM 4/27/98, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] >Combined Water and Air Flow Calorimetry > >Gene wants to build an insulated plywood box larger than the Kinetic Furnace. >It will be insulated on the inside and outside, with heavy duty reflective >house insulation. One side of the box will open (like a door), and the Furnace >and calibration joule heaters will be placed on rollers so the equipment can >be moved in to and out of the box. The door will have rubber gaskets. It may >have a small plexiglass window (an observation port) covered on the outside >with a flap of insulation. > >An automobile radiator -- the calorimetry heat exchanger -- will be placed >inside the box. Water will flow through it. This should not be confused with >the other radiator installed in the Kinetic Furnace itself. Jed, I suggest building the box out of metal. Thick scrap steel plate if available. It is then possible to wrap the box in insulation with copper pipe layered between the steel plate and the external insulation. The copper pipe could be attached with fasteners bolted through the steel plate. It would be more expensive, and more unwieldy, but could be the basis for a subequent generation high accuracy large volume calorimeter. The steel plate box would go a long way toward eliminating the effects of hot spots and toward eliminating the risk of fire. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 12:31:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19212; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:26:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:26:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427142250.00bb6d08 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:22:50 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980427161817.00698f70 freeway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"kdxbf2.0.rh4.5lDHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17935 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:18 4/27/98 -0400, Ed Strojny wrote: >Scott, I have that watthour meter. Are you sure that one turn on the wheel >is 1 KWH? Should that be 1WH? Yes, it should, Ed, thanks. On the face of every watthour meter I've ever seen is a number labelled Kh. That is how many watthours it takes to make the wheel turn once. On a big 3-phase meter we have here, Kh = 10.8 i.e. it's not always an even number of watthours. >While on the subject, is >there a way to count the revolutions by some detector and feed the results >into a computer? On both of my watthour meters there is a small hole in the wheel, rather far in from the edge. On the big one, we arranged a laser lecture pointer to shine thru that hole into a photodetector connected to a counting circuit to automatically count wheel revolutions for the long Potapov device runs we conducted. I haven't actually done it but you could easily connect the same detector output to a computer. The el cheapo method is to use one of the handshake input lines on an RS-232 port (often available even if the port is already in use!). With a few lines of QuickBASIC, your computer could measure how long a single revolution takes (to within 55 msec) whenever you want to know the input power. I'll be glad to provide details if you want. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 12:32:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19176; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:25:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:25:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427132221.00bb42d0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:22:21 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Kinetic Furnace testing plans In-Reply-To: <199804271237_MC2-3B23-FCC6 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FfSjZ2.0.Nh4.3lDHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17934 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: What you propose sounds workable, Jed, but not very simple. Gene's big-box with radiator idea is very similar to a large water-flow calorimeter we built about 6 years ago. If you pursue it, I strongly recommend insulating the temperature probes from room air and insulating the short sections of pipe that connect them to the calorimeter enclosure. You want nothing but the water temperature to affect those probes and you want nothing but the device under test to affect the water temperature. In our system we employed "active insulation" to keep the delta-T across the insulated enclosure walls nominally equal to zero. It was very rewarding to see the heat collection efficiency of the system closely approach 100% (within 0.5% relative)....but it was a lot of work to construct the large panel heaters for the outside and to get the necessary servo heater circuit working properly. BTW, we employed a bronze gearpump from Grainger's for the calorimetry water circulation. We drove it with an oversized induction motor which kept very constant rpm due to the very light load. Does the Kinetic Furnace have a separate water pump like Griggs' device or does the rotor action suffice to pump the water around the heat exchanger loop? Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 13:01:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27100; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:58:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:58:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427160049.00bb1280 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:00:49 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <680d7cdd.3543e340 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Htb522.0.Id6.KDEHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17936 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 09:45 PM 4/26/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: > If I vary the frequency above or >below 3.57 KHz, the input to the primary rises (and the arc gets dimmer). >It's like it finds a resonance point where the HV coil is pulling the most >current (which causes the voltage dip). How much information can I get in one message... First, how to maximize the efficiency of an arc is in part a black art. But there are some rules of thumb that help. For an AC or pulsed DC arc, the best, and stablest performance is when under operating conditions, the same amount of power is stored in the capacitor, inductor (in your case transformer) and in the arc itself. Of course, due to phase relationships, the power will be stored at different places at different points during the cycle. (Capacitor at peak voltage, transformer and arc at the respective peak currents.) Second, the power storage capability of the arc will depend on pressure, temperature and gas mix. Thus the resonant point will shift during your experiments. Finally, the performance is best when the input power has a power factor close to 1.0. You don't have to aim for 99.9%, but I've seen power factors under 0.3. Be sure to measure this at the input to the transformer (i.e. the power line in), and with a non-electronic meter. (You also probably need a watt-meter on the input to do serious tuning, any technique that uses volts and ampere measurements, even if it does sampling at 1 MHz and computes power, will be seriously misleading. (We used calorimeters to determine that harmonics in the input could be significant, but that would hide what you hope to find.) Oh, and don't get discouraged. Lots of people have measured OU artifacts in AC arcs. Some have been accounted for, but there are several anomalies that stubornly remain impossible to explain or dismiss. (Or repeat reliably.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 13:05:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28352; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:02:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:02:52 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:10:19 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"5CJ1q2.0.vw6.hHEHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17937 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:09 AM 4/27/98, Scott Little wrote: > Herbach and Rademan sells a 120VAC-15A one >for $30 (and a box for $10). 1 kwh rotates the wheel once. Measure how >long that takes and divide 3600 by the number of seconds to get watts. Do you have a phone number for them, or a supplier? Is the meter 5% accurate, or better? It would be nice to get one where the wheel rotates much faster per kwh! At 12:21 PM 4/27/98, John Schnurer wrote: > Dear Vince.... > > Simply measure the 110 V line input to the power supply. > > OR: Run the supply on a "UPS" and monitor the battery... run it >in the standby mode. > > :OR: > > Power from car batteries and inverter.... measure battery drain. > > This will give a solid relative usage. > > J John, The above methods require making assumptions about the linearity of the power supply energy comsumption vs load, or building a calorimeter for the power supply. Also the power factor is not 1.00 for some power supplies, so the same V*I summation problem still exists (unless you run from a UPS), but the AC input has the advantage of being down at 60 Hz and at a known voltage range. In my present application, boiloff calorimetry, I have no calorimeter involved in which to place the power supply, which takes up several cubic feet, and runs on 220 V. Also, power supplies like to run cool, and (cheap) calorimeters tend to run hot, and their design is sensitive to device size and power. Measuring A/C input power has been a problem in analysing motors, EM ou devices, gas discharge tubes, electrolysis devices using A/C superimposed on DC, etc, - lots of vortex applications. The difficulty of the problem drove Scott to do a lot of work in even selecting a commercial variety that works well. It would be neat to come up with a general solution that works well for about a hundred dollars, or at least a lot less than the $2000 commercial version. The Herbach and Rademan meter sounds like a great asset for any hands-on-vort, one I would like to purchase, but still, it is limited in frequency and voltage range. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 13:13:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29994; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:10:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:10:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3544E5F8.4EB6 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:09:28 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [off topic] Brain in jar References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08BF xch-cpc-02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YWczc1.0.PK7.ZOEHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17938 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scudder, Henry J wrote: > > Frank > I have an electric car, a Tropic/Zebra sitting in my driveway. I > bought it as a commute vehicle, but it has turned into a hobby. One > thing after another goes wrong. At the moment a battery terminal has > melted, and the battery is in the shop, where they are recasting the > terminal if they ever get around to it. > Yes, Hank, this was our experience with low-volume speciality cars. Just not enough R&D and QC - let's hope GM does a better job. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 13:27:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24738; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427162411.00bdd5a0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:24:11 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <35441E86.23AD interlaced.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"qoXG02.0.S26.zaEHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17939 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: There are DC arcs, AC arcs, pulsed AC arcs, and single shot devices. Each has very different behavior. I would stay with what got you here for a while. (In particular, power in DC arcs is well understood, and a lot of work has been done on mapping voltage distribution. In pulsed arcs attempts to measure just about anything directly are doomed to failure, but indirect measurements work pretty well. (We finally explained the unusual color temperature of pulsed arcs--they really are that hot in the center, but it is like an onion--there are many layers each with a different temperature. What you see is originally from several different layers, but because the plasma is effectively opaque, most light comes from characteristic elemental emission lines and is emitted for the last time at the plasma boundary, even though it may have been absorbed and reemitted hundreds of times. So all the emission line frequencies saturate. In addition you get "black body" radiation at a several thousand degrees (three to four usually) from the outer plasma layer. Now if Vince is really seeing a spectrum skewed to the violet, that fits with potassium and hydrogen for the emission lines, but apparently little or nothing is getting out as black body radiation. Hmmm. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 13:34:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25843; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427163106.00be68a0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:31:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"4RDhW3.0.aJ6.ahEHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17940 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 04:21 AM 4/27/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >The variac only accurately controls input voltage. A gas discharge tube, >or any complex circuit, will distort the I vs V curve, and thus the power >factor. Distort? More like turn into indecipherable hash. > You need to measure I and V and caluclate I*V many times each >cycle to get true power. If any electronic whizzes out there like John >Schnurer have a cheap simple way to do this, especially with clear plans or >in kit form, I would be interested also. Accurately measuring electrical >input power is getting to be a more common problem for vorts lately it >seems. The only tool I've found that works with any success in this environment is an analog wattmeter. (Basically you have two coils one (with a resistor) across the input voltage, one (usually with a shunt) in the current loop. They repel each other, and the result is a way to measure RMS watts. They even come in three-phase versions. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 13:59:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29617; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3544EF73.5F6A interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:49:55 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08BD xch-cpc-02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ww3wR3.0.eE7.t3FHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17941 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scudder, Henry J wrote: > > Vince, Frank > The only sure way to compute your power is to use a digital > oscilloscope, or a two channel A/D, one for the current into the system > and the other for the voltage driving the current. (snip good comments about electronic power measurement) Hank, I think Vince has gone to a DC power supply for his rig. My approach would be: Hank is using a microwave oven transformer that can probably put out 1200 watts of HALF-WAVE rectified power to an oven magnetron. Now, I would bet that Vince needs only about 100 watts or less in his reactor tube. Vince says the supply puts out 1200 volts (half wave?). 1. I would use the transformer with a full wave bridge rect. and a "big" electrolytic capacitor filter. 2. Since Vince probably needs no where near 1200 volts across the tube, he could ballast the devil out of the load circuit with a string of light bulbs for ballast. I don't think Vince is talking about an "arc" here - he just wants a nice hot glow discharge for H production over the K and some heat if he wants to go to higher temperatures. If he is lucky, the ballasted current may be fairly constant - you can always approach this with enough ballast. Most of the voltage drop and power will show up in the ballast - but, Vince has power to burn. 3. With an "almost" constant DC current, Vince may be lucky enough to be able to find a voltage-stable region in which to work the discharge - he's not studying arcs here - he is using one for H and heat! With constant DC current and volts, a fairly good power calc. is a no-brainer. Sure, it would be good to monitor the DC "quality" with a scope if one is available. 4. If the current is stable but no voltage-stable point can be found, then, the power is about equal to a constant (the current) times a messy voltage waveform. So, the power level would look like the voltage trace and the problem -even in this messy case - would reduce to averaging a voltage signal. If Vince has a 10 percent current variation - so what - he's looking for a larger anomally. If he finds a COP of 1.5 with a .1 current error, Scott will either treck to Vince, or Vince can treck to Scott for a more accurate measurement. I don't think we need to swamp him with instrumentation complexity until it proves necessary. JMHO. Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 14:41:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04362; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980427213014.00694de8 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:30:14 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"J7MY_2.0.141.JbFHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17942 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:10 PM 4/27/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >Do you have a phone number for them, or a supplier? Is the meter 5% >accurate, or better? It would be nice to get one where the wheel rotates >much faster per kwh! Herbach and Rademan 1-800-848-8001 http://www.herbach.com 4 Dial 120 VAC, 15 Amps, 60 Hz Kh = 1 (1 watt per RPM) Part Number TM95MET2830 $29.95 Surface Mount Meter Box Part Number TM93MET2387 $9.95 Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 14:46:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16515; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:43:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:43:31 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980427214306.0068e114 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:43:06 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"iyjWZ.0.d14.1mFHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17943 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That last message on the meter from Herbch and Rademan had an error. The Kh = 1 (1 watt-hour per RPM) is the correct version. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 14:54:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19324; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:51:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:51:50 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:59:17 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"R1vyH3.0.nj4.rtFHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17944 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:30 PM 4/27/98, Edwin Strojny wrote: >At 12:10 PM 4/27/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >>Do you have a phone number for them, or a supplier? Is the meter 5% >>accurate, or better? It would be nice to get one where the wheel rotates >>much faster per kwh! > >Herbach and Rademan >1-800-848-8001 >http://www.herbach.com > >4 Dial 120 VAC, 15 Amps, 60 Hz Kh = 1 (1 watt per RPM) >Part Number TM95MET2830 $29.95 > >Surface Mount Meter Box >Part Number TM93MET2387 $9.95 > >Ed Strojny Thanks! Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 15:07:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22921; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:03:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:03:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:03:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199804272203.PAA22898 mx1.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"MPJdU.0.0c5.m2GHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17945 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: >My questions are: What would be the best way to limit current output >from the supply? Control the input voltage with a variac? I hope this doesn't seem to obvious, but a current-limiting, high current rated, low valued resistor in series with the load may do the trick, although it's a little hard to tell exactly what you're doing. As the load resistance drops, the increasing current through the resistor drops the voltage across the load. Of course, that is probably what you are talking about below: >Ballast resistor in the HV side would work but changing them on the fly like I >am able to do with the high frequency power supply would be impossible. Resistance decade box? >I need to vary the current because of the large differences in the reactor >tube resistance with different gas fills. > Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 15:27:29 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28580; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:22:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:22:50 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:18:17 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Kinetic Furnace testing plans Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804271821_MC2-3B24-1371 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"XCoux3.0.9-6.qKGHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17946 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner writes: I suggest building the box out of metal. Thick scrap steel plate if available. It is then possible to wrap the box in insulation with copper pipe layered between the steel plate and the external insulation . . . Honestly, I do not see the point of this. The layer of steel would slow down the response of the cell, and it would increase the thermal mass of the calorimeter. Slow calorimeters are a nuisance. Unnecessary thermal mass increases inaccuracy. The design reminds me of Scott Little's calorimeter, which he showed at ICCF7. Several people, including me, wondered why he separated the cooling water tube from the sample. I have never seen that in other designs and I cannot think of a good reason to do it. In any case, Gene is doing the labor and he is better equipped for carpentry than metalworking. The steel plate box would go a long way toward eliminating the effects of hot spots and toward eliminating the risk of fire. The Kinetic Furnace itself is built in a steel box, which will be placed inside the wooden box. Furthermore the Furnace it runs on water, which makes hot spots unlikely. I think the only danger from hot spots will be from electrical shorts. A smoke alarm might be a good idea. It would be more expensive, and more unwieldy, but could be the basis for a subsequent generation high accuracy large volume calorimeter. What is the point of "high accuracy"? Our purpose is to demonstrate unequivocally that 4,000 watts are going in and 6,000 are coming out. We want ordinary, garden variety accuracy, with no complications. When you add layers of complexity in order to improve accuracy and precision, you lose credibility. The machine becomes difficult to understand, difficult to model, and non-standard in design, which makes it suspect. The response time usually slows down. We want a no-frills, plain-and-simple, vanilla machine that anyone can understand. That's what we (Gene and I) want. If someone out in Vortex-land or elsewhere in the cybernetic continuum wants to try another calorimeter, say a $60,000 Seebeck Envelope calorimeter with every known bell and whistle -- well . . . that person should buy a Seebeck calorimeter, load it on a truck, and pay us a visit! Be prepared to stay a few weeks. You will have to operate the equipment yourself. There is plenty of room. If you have no money you can sleep on the concrete floor. We still have the mattresses Chris Tinsley and I used. I have no doubt some people will say they trust nothing less than a $60,000 Seebeck Envelope calorimeter. They will assert it is impossible to measure the difference between 4 KW and 6 KW with ordinary equipment. They will say the extra 10 or 20 deg C Delta T we measure is an artifact caused by poor mixing, even though we will, obviously, mix the water externally in graduated cylinder and measure the temperature with a thermometer. (Of course we will! Who wouldn't?) People make up fantasies about stored heat and impossible calorimetric errors. I do not think we could ever convince such people with any combination of equipment, or any Delta T. Frankly, I will not waste my trying to convince them. I want to convince sensible engineers and feet-on-the ground scientists. I think the calorimeter I outlined will do the job, so I see no point it making it complex. Scott Little writes: What you propose sounds workable, Jed, but not very simple. It is simpler than most calorimeters I have worked with! Gene's big-box with radiator idea is very similar to a large water-flow calorimeter we built about 6 years ago. If you pursue it, I strongly recommend insulating the temperature probes from room air and insulating the short sections of pipe that connect them to the calorimeter enclosure. That would only take 10 minutes, so I suppose it is a good idea, but I expect it will make no measurable difference. When the water flows at 2 to 4 liters per minute, it occupies that segment of tubing (or pipe - I think tubes are better) for only a second. In other words, this is equivalent to pouring 100 ml room temperature water from a room temperature beaker into a section of tube close to room temperature, holding it in the tube for three seconds, and then dumping it back into the beaker. In that length of time there is no way the temperature will change enough to be measured with ordinary thermocouples. We will only use ordinary, off-the-shelf, simple thermocouples (or thermistors) good to +/- 0.1 deg C. You want nothing but the water temperature to affect those probes and you want nothing but the device under test to affect the water temperature. Since we plan to set the cooler at a higher temperature than ambient, heat can only be lost between the inlet thermocouple and the box, thanks to the second law. Therefore we do not need to worry about these losses; they can only result in our *underestimating* excess heat. Furthermore, as noted above, I would rephrase that: "you want nothing but the water temperature to *significantly* or *measurably* affect . . ." We should not obsess about things we cannot measure. If I cannot detect the heat lost in an exposed tube during calibration, I would not worry about it. But, as I said, it takes only a few minutes to wrap a tube, so we might as well do it. In our system we employed "active insulation" to keep the delta-T across the insulated enclosure walls nominally equal to zero. It was very rewarding to see the heat collection efficiency of the system closely approach 100% (within 0.5% relative)....but it was a lot of work to construct the large panel heaters for the outside and to get the necessary servo heater circuit working properly. Very rewarding? Why? Ordinary calorimeters will recover 90 to 95% of the heat consistently. You always know how much heat they lose. You determine this during calibration. As long as the instrument is stable and reliable, it makes no difference whether it recovers 90%, 95% or 99.766%. Since our purpose is to measure 50 to 100% excess -- and since anything less than that will never convince our audience anyway -- I see no purpose in trying to capture the last 5% of the heat. Suppose we take these heroic measures to make "active insulation." We would make the calorimeter difficult to understand. We would create endless complexities for the skeptics to nit pick. We would turn a simple instrument into an exotic one that the experts will not trust, because they have no experience working with a similar instrument. Worst of all, we would give people the mistaken impress that without such heroic measures the excess heat cannot be detected. People will imagine it is terribly difficult to measure the difference between 4 KW and 6 KW, which is preposterous. Such measures give the wrong impression. They make the results less believable. They detract from rather than enhancing results. Heroic measures should only be used when the reaction *cannot produce* more a tiny heat flux, because of a limitation of nature. When you want to measure the heat from small samples of impure radioactive materials you must find a way to measure microwatts. In the case of cold fusion and these ultrasound machines, nature imposes no such limitations. Previous results indicate that a huge heat flux and excess heat ranging from 50 to 600% is possible. Those are the results we are trying to confirm. If we found the ultrasound machine does not produce 50% excess, but only 0.1% excess measured with heroic means, that would do us no good. It would be useless. Nobody would believe it, and I couldn't care less about an anomalous heat source that only produces one part in a thousand excess. I cannot understand why it is rewarding to improve heat recovery when everyone knows where the last 5% is leaking. If the calibration shows 95% recovery, and you measure, say, 105% of input, obviously you must be seeing an excess. Why is 110% more convincing than 105%, or 155% more convincing than 150%? I do not get it. When you do the experiment correctly, the second law will insure that you *never* accidentally overestimate the heat. Who cares if you underestimate it? What possible difference could it make? I do not understand why you and Fleischmann and others find it rewarding to over-engineer instruments and solve problems that do not asked to be solved, when other critical problems remain unaddressed. It seems to me you add meaningless extra digits of precision, complications, and complexity. If you have extra time you should devote it to improving the cell cathode, not the calorimeter. As you know, Fleischmann agrees with your point of view. He thinks is it important to measure tiny heat fluxes, in order to learn more about the onset of the reaction. (I do not see what good this knowledge has done him, and I do not see what use he has put it to.) He managed to measure microwatts with his open cell Dewar calorimeters, although nobody believes or understands his results. It is a tour de force, but it is useless. Miles has achieved similar results with a similar calorimeter. Their approach is to keep the equipment simple and use complex algorithms. If you insist on more and more precision and accuracy -- for some inscrutable reason -- I recommend you use their approach: simple hardware, complex software. McKubre complicates both. Ben Bush recommends a Seebeck calorimeter, which is simple yet extraordinarily precise. If you feel you must measure milliwatts I think this is the best method. It is high tech mysterious black box, so nobody will trust it or believe it, but they never believe the other methods of measuring milliwatts either, so you might as well select the most convenient method. BTW, we employed a bronze gearpump from Grainger's for the calorimetry water circulation. We drove it with an oversized induction motor which kept very constant rpm due to the very light load. Gene was thinking of gravity flow, with a method similar to the one Tinsley used. I think a pump might be easier. Any reasonable pump will do, as long as the flow meter is reliable. And we will use Galileo's method for back up, which is and always shall remain the most reliable method. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 15:45:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16904; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427184420.00c1cb30 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:44:20 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <199804272203.PAA22898 mx1.eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"t6_0G2.0.-74.GeGHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17947 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:03 PM 4/27/98 -0700, Ed Wall wrote: >I hope this doesn't seem to obvious, but a current-limiting, high current >rated, low valued resistor in series with the load may do the trick, >although it's a little hard to tell exactly what you're doing. As the load >resistance drops, the increasing current through the resistor drops the >voltage across the load. I repeat, AC and DC arcs are two different sets of animals. Yes, a resistor in series with a DC arc is one way to control the power, in fact it is a necessary way to control the power. (For example, buy some high-resistance wire, nicrome works but is not necessary, and build a double wound helix.) But with an AC arc, putting a resistor in the circut can prevent it from working, but if the resistance is low enough that it doesn't do that, it won't limit the current. Also putting another transformer in the circut of an AC arc, especially a load regulation transformer, will just increase the impedance, and probably wreck your power factor. The only reasonable way to regulate the power is to have a transformer tapped on the input side, and switch taps. (i.e. You lower the voltage to the capacitor, keeping the rest of the circut unchanged.) If you are going to roll your own transformer, we used to buy nice silicon steel wrapped cores sliced in half to make two c-shaped pieces. The nice feature was that by regulating the gap when the pieces were put back together (inside the windings), we could regulate the gap and therefore the impedence of the transformer. If you don't want to buy your own cores, it is often possible to remove them from old TV flyback transformers. However, winding coils without a lathe and a counter is painful. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 17:04:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28613; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980427180314.00b9bb48 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:03:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"KGLux.0.w-6.MmHHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17948 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 13:59 4/27/98 -0800, Horace Heffner wrote: >Is the meter 5% >accurate, or better? It should be within ~1%, being a "revenue meter". I'll compare mine to the Clarke-Hess 2330 soon and let you know how it does. >It would be nice to get one where the wheel rotates >much faster per kwh! Kh = 1 is the most sensitive one I've ever seen. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 18:14:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06359; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:12:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:12:24 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804272203.PAA22898 mx1.eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:13:04 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"7YprN3.0.FZ1.tpIHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17949 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: A glow discharge in H2 will take about 300 volt, give or take, to sustain, and maybe 100 to 200 V more to start. A common proceedure is to have a dc power supply with 500 or 600 V and a ballast resistor. An arc will run at a few tens of volt, but it will still require a high voltage to start. A ballast resistor makes a lot of heat (which should be kept away from the experiment, where you measure temperatures), but it's the cheapest way to run the experiment. A variac is probably the best way to vary the voltage and current during operation. If you try to vary resistor connections or taps, you will be playing with hot wires at 600 volt --- definitely life threatening, and very painful if you live through it. Don't do it that way. Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:01:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23733; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:57:35 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <8907fef8.3545450b aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:55:06 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"QfeGm.0.do5.QMKHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17953 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 08:29:51 EDT, you write: > The K should be at the anode (+) end. The electrons are stripped from > atoms at the anode end, ionizing and repelling them. > Regards, > Horace Heffner Thanks Horace, Will wire things up that way for a start. Regards, Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 19:59:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29309; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:56:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:56:07 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <6ff3c478.3545450c aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:55:07 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"uhVg31.0.o97.6LKHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17954 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 09:53:31 EDT, you write: > But, if you can brute-force > it, use ballast resistors to stabilize the current and enjoy the > pleasure of measuring nice DC power. Less EMI into your thermal > instrumentation too! > Frank Stenger Thanks for all the suggistions / info. I'm looking into all ideas. I want to keep to the K.I.S.S. principle. Less to worry about. Regards, Vince Las Vegas (the Alladin is gone!) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:01:40 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23723; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:57:34 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <67e375f8.35454509 aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:55:04 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"vxWe7.0.Wo5.PMKHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17952 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 01:54:19 EDT, you write: > From: bhorst loc1.tandem.com (Bob Horst) > VCockeram wrote: > > Yes Bob, I'm working up a new power supply ...... > Case presented his experiments that are a little different > (without K), effective temperature range was 150-250 deg C. > Since your graph already shows a dramatic effect happening in > this range, you might want to try to understand that before heading off into very high T. Agreed, I do want to understand the effect but Dr. Mills says the effect happens in the suns corona....and thats at something like 11,000,000 C! Now I sure don't want THAT temperature in my garage, but Mills is looking for a gas phase reaction to run up around 2,0000 C. Now that I would like to see in my garage. It would of course slag the present thermocouple but they are cheap, 13 bucks or so, and one capable of that temperature is only 40 bucks, and in fact, in a hopless fit of optimism, on order from Graingers. > > ....... AC wattmeter?....... > > Scott is the expert on this. > Here is another idea. > You need good calorimetry and power measurement. > Would it be possible for you to take > your device to Austin for a few days (if Scott is willing)? If travel > expense is a problem, I bet we could pass the hat and get some > Vorts to finance your trip. I would gladly toss in my $25 worth. Thanks, but lets just sit back a bit and let me get some good heat measurments first. This heat outburst at first left me stunned. Really ! I started looking for what the hell I did wrong. Kind of like I didn't believe it. When I did a second run, (after re-running all the runs with no K) and saw the same thing, I shut it down and downed 4 beers then went to bed. Next morning I went to the bench and just stared at the thing, thinking for over two hours. Then cleaned out the tube (easy, just add water, a little fizz and all the K, W and whatever are gone), and reran the gas with no K again..........Then I tore down the old power supply. Hooked up the 1200 v microwave supply and will try that, again, right from the beginning as soon as my 15 amp variac arrives sometime later this week from Mouser Electronics. It's a sure guarantee the tube will explode without a throttle on the supply. The reason I want more power is the present supply is running balls to the wall, no way to adjust upward even a little. AND it's all AC. Frank, I think suggested a whole bunch of filter caps, lamp ballast ect to smooth out the DC in the new supply. Frank, I want a bit of AC ripple there to kinda mix up the K++ and the H. The supply came with a 2400 VAC eltrolytic .6 MFD capacitor. I rewired it so now the cap sees only DC. I put the supply in a garbage can and ran it for 6 hours as a smoke test. The transformer got sorta hot (but not excessivly so) but the cap was as cool as a cucumber, and still was holding as serious charge 12 hours later so I guess it's ok. I can't find my Dalbani catalog where I think I can find capacitors like this and the single large HV diode in the supply. Anybody got Dalbani's number? Thanks to all. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada (where in 5 minutes They are blowing up the Alladin) 702-254-2122 > -- Bob From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:00:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29199; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:55:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:55:40 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:55:05 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"kaske3.0.787.hKKHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17951 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 02:00:07 EDT, you write: > and light bulbs and sockets are less bucks than the big variac. > I have details on my ballasted 1200 volt charger if you're interested. > Frank Stenger I worked another stint of nice overtime this weekend that will cover the 130 bucks for the 15 amp variac. Laura doesn't complain as long as I take her shopping once in a while. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:04:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23671; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:57:24 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:54:56 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 glow discharge... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"WYPOU3.0.mn5.HMKHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17950 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 01:37:04 EDT, you write: > This is extremely interesting. I am a little worried about > your safety, though. You wrote: .................quartz............ > Hydrogen combustion yields copious UV. > Mills says hydrino production yields copious UV. > Quartz glass *transmits* most UV. According to Dr. Mills, the frequency is in the over 900 angstrom range which is stopped by materials that transmit visible wavelengths. This is why they had to use pinholes to get the radition to the spectrometer, which also had no lenses. . > > If you look at the arc without *serious* UV protection, > you could destroy your eyesight. Please be caareful. I am always careful. A simple flouresent tube near the reactor monitors UV radition. > A steel tube around the quartz tube could prevent > possible UV damage, and potential fragmentation damage > if the tube breaks. The reactor tube is fully enclosed by 1/4 inch polycarbonate plates. If I enclose it with steel I can't see whats going on and a picture is worth a thousand words to me. > A double walled tube could be used to flow water through, > oor generate steam, in later calorimetry/power production. I am not at that point yet. I want to and will do careful measurment of pressure parameters to find at what fill produces the highest temps. > Again, Great work!! > Tom Miller Thank you. This is hard work to get the measurments correct. Every time one tiny thing is changed, like for instance, the electrode gap, I essentially have to run a new series of tests, Arc in vacuum no K, Arc in Argon no K, Arc in H2 no K, Arc in vacuum + K, Arc in argon +K, Arc in H2 + K. Each run in the takes more than 2 hours. I have a day job, so I can pay for all this neat stuff for the runs and as such, have limited time to play at the experiment bench. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:52:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10428; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:43 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <65cb9659.354551d7 aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:49:42 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Simple measure....Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"wS7Ur1.0.lY2.H8LHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17959 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 17:45:39 EDT, you write: > he Kh= 1 (1 watt-hour per RPM) is the correct version. > Ed Strojny Thanks Ed. Vince From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:52:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10282; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:11 -0700 Message-ID: <35455207.6021 interlaced.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:50:31 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow - BALLAST RES. References: <67e375f8.35454509 aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"JD2ze.0.WW2.o7LHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17955 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VCockeram wrote: > > Frank, I think suggested a whole bunch of filter caps, lamp ballast ect to > smooth out the DC in the new supply. Frank, I want a bit of AC ripple > there to kinda mix up the K++ and the H. The supply came with a 2400 VAC > eltrolytic .6 MFD capacitor. I rewired it so now the cap sees only DC. OK, Vince, if you want ripple in the voltage then that's probably fine. The variac sounds great, but follow Mike Schaffer's advice and use some kind of a ballast resistor in series with the tube - it will really add stability to the operation. If the ripple works, you could always add filtering later. If it continues to work with smooth DC, then you could do some nice power measurement to pin down the fine details. Onward and upward, Vince! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:52:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10307; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:14 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <5699a3ac.354551d4 aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:49:39 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"zkiVA.0.uW2.q7LHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17956 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 12:48:12 EDT, you write: > While on the subject, is > there a way to count the revolutions by some detector and feed the results > into a computer? > Ed Strojny I would say attach a small non metallic flag to the rotor and rig it to pass through an infrared detector. Surplus houses sell them for about a buck. Use as many flags as you want clicks per revolution. As Nevada Power is one of the accounts I service, next time I'm over there I'll ask one of the power engineers about how many kilowatts per rotor revolution. I thought it gave a kilo watt minute per revolution. Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:53:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10378; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:50:33 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <34f4db2c.354551d9 aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:49:44 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"zNhTQ.0._X2.98LHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17958 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 21:13:42 EDT, you write: > A variac is probably the best way to vary the voltage and current during > operation. > > If you try to vary resistor connections or taps, you will be playing with > hot wires at 600 volt --- definitely life threatening, and very painful if > you live through it. Don't do it that way. > Michael J. Schaffer Yeah Mike, I accidently brushed against the hot lead of the .6 MFD 2400 volt cap after it had been powerd off for a couple of hours. The burn is 1/8 dia x 1/32 deep in the side of my thumb and I may be run out of the nieghborhood for uttering high volume profanity. It's not infected though. Regards, Vince (treating my power supply with much more respect in) Las Vegas Nevada From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:55:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02720; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:52:07 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: <2ff9272c.354551d3 aol.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:49:37 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Kinetic Furnace testing plans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"NgNFO2.0.Qg.c9LHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17957 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-27 12:42:56 EDT, you write: <<>> > Experimental Method > > Calibration Run: The blower and joule heater will be turned on, the Kinetic > Furnace rotor will be left off. Power will be set at 1 KW and held for 4 to > 8 > hours. Then it will be stepped up to 2 KW, then 3, 4 and 5 KW. The cooling > water Delta T and the air temperature in the box should both increase in a > linear fashion. .......... <<>> > - Jed Jed, I love this. After many long years we are finally getting around to doing our own experiments. This is wonderful. I am having a ball doing my H2 Glow discharge stuff and I know both you and Gene will also. Good hunting ! Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 20:58:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12596; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:55:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:55:27 -0700 Message-ID: <35455261.5015 worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:52:01 -1000 From: bill perry Reply-To: wperry3092 worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode References: <1.5.4.32.19980427161817.00698f70 freeway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HcKMS3.0.k43.kCLHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17960 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Edwin Strojny wrote: > > At 10:09 AM 4/27/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote: > >Vince wrote: > > > >The latter is the only cheap way to go...unless you can borrow 1 or 2. A > >clunky but reliable way to do this is to use a standard residential > >watthour meter and a stopwatch. Herbach and Rademan sells a 120VAC-15A one > >for $30 (and a box for $10). 1 kwh rotates the wheel once. Measure how > >long that takes and divide 3600 by the number of seconds to get watts. > > > > > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little > >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA > >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > > > Scott, I have that watthour meter. Are you sure that one turn on the wheel > is 1 KWH? Should that be 1WH? I put a 250-watt lamp in series with the > meter and it took 13.3 seconds per revolution. While on the subject, is > there a way to count the revolutions by some detector and feed the results > into a computer? > > Ed Strojny Use an infrared LED inside some sort of collimator tube and a Infrared photodiode to register one revolution whenever the photodiode loses the IR beam due to it's being absorbed by the black dot or bar. BillP From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 21:12:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14951; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:08:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:08:37 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980428000439.006fc160 world.std.com> X-Sender: mica world.std.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:04:39 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Mitchell Swartz Subject: Generating muons - muon cold fusion In-Reply-To: References: <3543917D.9D5 spu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"QV5e9.0.Xf3.4PLHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17961 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 03:03 PM 4/27/98 +1000, Martin Sevior wrote: >On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, TK inquired: > >> How would I go about generating muons and then focusing them into a >> concentrated beam?? Any help would be appreciated. I am looking for a >> solution that would be at least somewhat energy efficient. >> > >You'd need at least 1 billion dollars plus the exclusive use of about 50 >first rate accelerator physicists. It is a subject of high interest these >days as Physicists begin to ponder what to do after the LHC (14,000 GeV >protons on 14,000 GeV protons) currently being built at CERN. One idea is >to build a muon collider that has high on its list of requirements, an >intense focussed beam of muons. This is not easy to do. Muon fusion appears to extend back to the '30s. The use of muon fusion to attempt to produce a Japanese muon powered aerospace engine was uncovered, and discussed, in The Cold Fusion Times (issues 6-1, and 5-3). http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html Like other cold fusion systems, the literature offers an additional excellent way to learn about these systems and devices, including alternative - and perhaps less expensive - methods. Mitchell Swartz From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Mon Apr 27 22:22:15 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14108; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:25:49 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: H2 glow discharge... Resent-Message-ID: <"P18kx3.0.LS3.JSMHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17962 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 PM 4/27/98, VCockeram wrote: >I am always careful. A simple flouresent tube near the reactor monitors >UV radition. Keep in mind a glass flourescent tube may not respond to UV coming through the quartz tube, as the phosphors are on the inside of the flourescent tube. >Thank you. This is hard work to get the measurments correct. Every >time one tiny thing is changed, like for instance, the electrode gap, >I essentially have to run a new series of tests, Arc in vacuum no K, >Arc in Argon no K, Arc in H2 no K, Arc in vacuum + K, Arc in argon +K, >Arc in H2 + K. Each run in the takes more than 2 hours. I have a day >job, so I can pay for all this neat stuff for the runs and as such, have >limited time to play at the experiment bench. Arc in "H2 no K" should be the best control run, as gas characterisitcs should be very similar to H2 + K, but no ou present. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 00:16:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07209; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:12:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:12:33 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <148ff6f6.35415b9b aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:42:18 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"iO8K9.0.zl1.U5OHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17963 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-24 17:46:44 EDT, you write: > Can you open your driver device and find a > point where you can measure DC power. The output > of the power supply section would be appropriate. > George Holz george varisys.com > Varitronics Systems George, I am running this thing (for now) with an AC arc at 14 KHz. A surplus US Navy sonar test set is driving a TV flyback transformer. The flyback transformer produces about 15 KV. I will measure, before the next run, the resistance of the primary of the transformer, and, while the run is in progress, the true RMS voltage across the primary. I could also put a 2.5 ohm resistor in the feed to the transformer and record the voltage drop across it. Doing both measurments will be better. Today I purchased a Fluke model 51 digital K type thermocouple meter. I am as I type this, waiting for the thermal epoxy to set up. The K thermocouple is mounted in a 1/2 inch deep hole bored in a sintered bronze shoe. The shoe is 1 inch in length by 3/8 X 1/4 inch. It resembles a commutator brush. I machined a radius to match the tube outside diameter in the end opposite the bored thermocouple hole. A spring is attached to the shoe and wraps around the tube. This holds the shoe tightly against the outside wall of the reactor tube. This is no good for precision calorimetry bacause there is way too much heat loss to the surrounding air. But is _is_ sufficient to measure with precision the _difference_ in running the reactor with different gas fills, vacuum, with or with K metal. I did construct a polycarbonate (plexiglass) shield around to shield the reactor from stray air currents in the garage. I didn't publish the first runs without the shield as the thermister reading were all over the scale whenever Laura (wife) walked past the bench to take out the trash. Also, the shield gives me a warm fuzzy feeling in case the tube pops and scatters molten K around. The inside of the tube is now quite discolored, especially the lower end where the slug of K resides. On the slug of K: The piece of K that scott sent me is about an inch in diameter by 3/8 inch thick. I took a 3 inch length of 1/4 inch od copper tubing and sharpened one end. Use it like a cookie cutter ! In the plastic bag filled with argon goes the K in it's container, the cutter, the reactor tube, a dish of acetone, a small pocket knife, a pair of tweezers, a Q-Tip stick and a small wood cutting board. Oh, almost forgot, also my right hand and a tube from the argon supply. A rubber band seals the bag to my forearm. I squeeze the bag as tight as I can around all the stuff then fill with argon. Let the bag fill up real nice and squash it down a couple of times and fill again, push the tubing cookie cutter through the K, use the Q-Tip stick to push the slug of K out of the cutter into the dish of acetone, wash off the oil, tweezers to the wood block (beechwood), use the knife to cut the oxide off the ends of the K slug, tweezers again moves the slug into the reactor tube. The slug slides down to the lower end of the tube like sh** from a goose. I seal up the open tube end and it's a done deal. After mounting the tube in the stand, I pull full vacuum and gently heat the lower end with a propane torch until the K melts and settles in a nice even blob in the bottom end of the tube and I let the tube cool to room temperature. Before each run starts I now preheat the tube to ~80 C with the power supply adjusted to the lowest power that will sustain an arc for two hours under full vacuum, 25 microns=25 millitorr or whatever. I am still using the original K metal charge now after 4 runs. I worry that the discoloration is causing vitrification of the quartz tube hence the safety / heat shield. At the end of a run I again pull full vacuum while the tube cools. When cool I fill with argon to ~1 psi to keep air out. The epoxy should be set now so I'm gonna head for the bench and start another run. Lab note book is almost full of observation notes. This is hard work but great fun too. Safety always first. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas Nevada 702-254-2122 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 05:17:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12160; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980428121201.3066.qmail hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [194.73.204.17] From: "Rob King" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Smot, Rmod and Pmod (DMEC demise) also Stan Meyer Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:12:01 PDT Resent-Message-ID: <"BL51Q.0.qz2.WWSHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17964 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Vorts, Greg, when does your contract with DMEC come to a close, I guess it must be pretty soon now. Hopefully (as far as I'm concerned) it won'y work out and it does all come to an end so the rest of us can have a stab at your PMOD device,sorry if that sounds negative but it is for the best I think. I am eager to see these SMOT kits being sent out even though I did not order one, so that others can confirm they work as claimed by yourself. This in itself will put a lot of weight behind any further work you do on the PMOD device....I can't wait. On a more morbid note, now that Stan Meyer is dead, what happens to his research work, who gets to look at it. Surely the truth must now come out, I mean if it is worth anything his immediate family would benifit from the sale of the technology, unless they were under instructions to destroy everything in the event of his death, so hiding any evidence that he was a fraud or not. Rob King ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 05:46:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA15241; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:37:24 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <3545CAED.E8AAC69D verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:26:21 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer , vortex Subject: eprint: gr-qc/9804069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"WiCR21.0.1k3.sySHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17965 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9804069 General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology, abstract gr-qc/9804069 From: Giorgio Fontana Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:36:27 GMT (5kb) A possibility of emission of high frequency gravitational radiation from d-wave to s-wave type superconductor junctions Authors: Giorgio Fontana Comments: 4 pages Recent measurements on a class of high-Tc superconductors (HTSC) have shown that Cooper-pairs binding may be associated to a d-wave, while in another class, d and s waves may coexist. When d-wave Cooper-pairs are injected in a superconductor that can sustain s-wave binding, d-wave pairs decay to s-wave pairs and energy is irradiated by means of gravitons. We show that in s-wave to d-wave type superconductor (SDS) junctions in an equilibrium condition no net gravitational wave energy is emitted, on the other hand under non equilibrium conditions a net gravitational wave energy is emitted by the junction. Experiments which show a gravitational interaction between inomogeneus high-Tc superconductors, under non equilibrium conditions, and test objects may be understood by accepting a possibility of emission of gravitational radiation from SDS junctions. Paper: HTML Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 06:10:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08321; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:07:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:07:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:07:08 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: apologies, I can take jokes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"4sIml3.0.v12.aITHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17966 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vo, I wasn't nagging and I can take a joke. I like to challenge people's preconceptions, that's also what science is about. I'm trying to understand Objectivism and see if it relevant to what people are going through on vortex. It is. I don't mean to make people look fools (or myself) but to honestly understand big issues. I believe that one's value system is important and that large scale political thought is a reflection of these values. I believe that people's sense of justice is wrong esepcially with regard to how heroes (people seeking new frontiers or uncompromising in ideals). I keep on and on because I wish to help people to understand Objectivism (and myself) and that what they give up in the name of 'human good' is really pandering to the worst in society. I am concerned with freedom. If you've ever been unjustly picked on by the state because of peoples' petty envies (grassing you up to the IRS or similiar when the grassers have friends in high places). If you've ever been despised (victimised, insuinuated against) by the people your taxes go to (say worthless, alcoholic, feckless neighbours) and had your property damaged by them (several times) and get no redress from the law. If you've ever had to listen through oxbridge types talking social justice but can't even allow their best senior engineers promotion because of 'class'; or been destroyed by them (character assasinated) for daring to say that their political views were damaging the 3rd world and what they were espousing was 'compassion superiority' an inverse racism. If you've heard academics complain about lack of funding but curse the system that creates the wealth or praise the system that redistributes it to the most undeserving, leaving little for them. If you've ever had something that is correct rejected by academics, suffered the indifference and realise that these people don't think but follow bandwagons (250 authors on a CERN paper on particle physics say - get on the gravvy train!). If you've ever had to recover from that, you will understand. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 06:52:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24878; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3545D022.13E6 earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:48:34 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com Subject: Oriani email address 04/28/98 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"1zqRQ1.0.d46.mvTHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17967 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Received: from mhub3.tc.umn.edu (0 mhub3.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.53]) by ukraine.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA13646 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub3.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 28 Apr 98 06:57:09 -0500 Received: from cor1.cems.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 28 Apr 98 06:57:09 -0500 From: "Jody Peper" Reply-To: "Jody Peper" To: rmforall EARTHLINK.NET Subject: e-mail address change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: POPmail 2.3b8 Message-Id: <3545c4164a26002 mhub3.tc.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 06:57:10 -0500 Mr. Murray, I just wanted to let you know that Dr. Oriani has his own e-mail address. It is orian001 staff.tc.umn.edu You may want to take my (Jody L Peper) e-mail off the list and put Dr. Oriani's on instead if you continue to send him e-mail because I will be taking some vacation in the near future. Dr. Oriani won't get his e-mail for awhile if I continue to get his mail on my account as well as the simple fact of it being more convenient for Dr. Oriani to get his mail directly. Thanks for your attention to this matter. Jody Peper Executive Assistant Corrosion Research Center University of Minnesota 112 Amundson Hall 221 Church St. SE Minneapolis, MN 55455 ph: (612) 625-4048 fax: (612) 626-7246 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 07:16:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28566; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3545E22E.6FA skylink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:05:34 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown effect false? References: <01BD714C.2671FE60 pm3-138.gpt.infi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"HvbUn2.0.B-6.cHUHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17968 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle R. Mcallister wrote: > I came across a NASA web page (and mentioned it awhile back) that said the > Biefield Brown effect is false. Tne only passage on it reads: > "Test of Biefield-Brown Effect-(results negative) Tally for Mead > Its at http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/bpp_PREPARATORY_WORK.htm > Comments please. I have copies of these two experimental reports and will dig them out and pepare a summary and criticism. In my opinion, both are flawed. Test of Hooper gravity/electromagnetic coupling (results negative) - Millis (95) Test of Biefield-Brown effect (results negative) - Tally for Mead (91) Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 07:41:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25926; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:39:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:39:42 -0700 Posted-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:34:35 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <3545E65C.5E5C152F verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:23:24 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Schnurer CC: vortex Subject: Giorgio Fontana's paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QP_z02.0.0L6.jeUHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17970 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is most significant paper I have ever read. This is also compatible with your experiment as: "On the contrary it is compatible with a beam of millimetric or submillimetric gravitational radiation generated by the decay of Cooper-pairs" and the next sentence: "The emission is orthogonal to the plane of the junction where small domains should have emitted coherent and thus beamed gravitational radiation, these domains are associated to current fluxes that locally align Cooper-pairs and locally determine the pha se of the gravitational wave radiation; we also recall that HTSC are type 2 superconductors which allow the partial penetration of magnetic field by flux vortices." If you remember my recent thought on the microscopic statistical nature of gravity, and pointing coherent nature of B.E condensates allowing to destroy the random emission of gravitational forces, resulting directional macroscopic forces, this theory is c ompletely fit in my model, or vice versa. :-) He says SC is just acting like a laser, but emitting gravitons instead of photons. What can be simpler than this? Hope, this paper will invoke more research and may Podkletnov also could integrate to a new forming group around this theory. I see big probability that we can travel without wheels and wings in 7 years. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 07:41:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25869; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:39:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:39:25 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <218601b2.3545e9f9 aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:38:48 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 glow discharge... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"65KkE1.0.7K6.SeUHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17969 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-28 01:20:09 EDT, you write: > Arc in "H2 no K" should be the best control run, as gas characterisitcs > should be very similar to H2 + K, but no ou present. > Regards, > Horace Heffner Horace (and All), Here are the maximum temperatures I got to running "H2 NO K" Old tube, 3 inch electrode gap.........119.7+ -.1C ..4-25-98 New tube, 5/8 inch electrode gap....213.7+-.1C...4-26-98 And here, the maximum temperatures running "H2 WITH K" Old tube, 3 inch electrode gap..........243.7+-.1C...4-24-97 New tube, 5/8 electrode gap.............243.5+-.1C...4-26-98 My main reason for the new tube is that the arc location in the tube is away from the end of the tube with the seal, the seal that melted. It keeps thing cooler at that end of the tube. Have not plotted these runs to Lotus yet but will upload all data as soon as I do. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 08:44:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05999; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:41:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:41:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3545F6D6.5775 skylink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:33:42 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Giorgio Fontana's paper References: <3545E65C.5E5C152F verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"N6htl3.0.fT1.XYVHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17971 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > "On the contrary it is compatible with a beam of millimetric or submillimetric gravitational radiation generated by the decay of Cooper-pairs" James Cox, editor of Antigravity News, has found this effect experimentally and applied for a patent. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 08:47:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06694; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:44:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:44:17 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980428154415.006921e0 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:44:15 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Resent-Message-ID: <"QF8-N2.0.Pe1.GbVHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17972 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:49 PM 4/27/98 EDT, Vince Cockeram wrote: >In a message dated 98-04-27 12:48:12 EDT, you write: >> While on the subject, is >> there a way to count the revolutions by some detector and feed the results >> into a computer? >> Ed Strojny > >I would say attach a small non metallic flag to the rotor and rig it to >pass through an infrared detector. Surplus houses sell them for about >a buck. Use as many flags as you want clicks per revolution. >As Nevada Power is one of the accounts I service, next time I'm over >there I'll ask one of the power engineers about how many kilowatts >per rotor revolution. I thought it gave a kilo watt minute per revolution. > >Regards, >Vince >Las Vegas > > Thanks Vince, There are black markings at the edge of the wheel. The meter I am using is a 110 V, 15 Amp, 60 Hz device that has a rotor that rotates once every one watt-hour. Scott Little suggests I use an NPN photo transistor or a photo diode and a laser beam. There are two holes spaced 180 deg apart in the wheel. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 09:06:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10632; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:00:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:00:26 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08C2 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Kinetic Furnace testing plans Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:59:37 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"4106h2.0.yb2.OqVHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17973 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed You should be able to pickup a radiator and fan cooling system from an old VW Rabbit or Jetta at an automobile boneyard. The fan is electric an the whole unit is built to fit together. Hank > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:72240.1256 compuserve.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Monday, April 27, 1998 9:33 AM > To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com > Subject: Kinetic Furnace testing plans > > To: Vortex > > During ICCF7 I discussed methods of testing the Kinetic Furnace with > Mike > Schaffer, Scott Little, Gene Mallove and others. Here is our > preliminary plan, > subject to change. (I call this "our plan" and I say "we" will do this > and > that, but actually Gene will do all the work and I'll take a share of > the > glory.) > > > Air Flow Calorimetry > > We will verify excess energy using standard HVAC air flow calorimetry, > the > same method we used in Georgia. This can be done quickly. If it shows > excess > heat, we will move on to water flow calorimetry, which is more > conventional > and precise. > > > Combined Water and Air Flow Calorimetry > > Gene wants to build an insulated plywood box larger than the Kinetic > Furnace. > It will be insulated on the inside and outside, with heavy duty > reflective > house insulation. One side of the box will open (like a door), and the > Furnace > and calibration joule heaters will be placed on rollers so the > equipment can > be moved in to and out of the box. The door will have rubber gaskets. > It may > have a small plexiglass window (an observation port) covered on the > outside > with a flap of insulation. > > An automobile radiator -- the calorimetry heat exchanger -- will be > placed > inside the box. Water will flow through it. This should not be > confused with > the other radiator installed in the Kinetic Furnace itself. The > Kinetic > Furnace radiator radiates heat, and this second calorimetry radiator > will > absorb it, so it will really be a reverse radiator. The flow rate > should go as > high as 4 liters per minute. Even this may not be enough. If the > machine > develops 8 KW (114 Kcal per minute) the Delta T at 4 l/min will be 29 > deg C, > which is too high. This would make the inside of the box quite warm, > which has > three disadvantages: > > 1. It is best to keep the temperature inside the box close to the > ambient room > temperature, to minimize heat loss through the walls of the box. As > much heat > as possible should be recovered by the cooling water. > > 2. High temperatures might damage the machine. > > 3. Excess heat effects like cold fusion sometimes exhibit positive > feedback, > in which increasing temperatures above 60 to 80 deg C cause an > exponential > increase in energy output. I have no idea whether this machine will do > anything of the sort. I would like to find out in a careful, > deliberate test, > not by accident. A C.O.P. exceeding 6.0 has been observed with this > machine > when it was operated at high temperatures. > > Input power will be measured with an Amprobe DM-II electric power data > logger. > Inlet and outlet temperatures will each be measured with two > thermocouples and > a mercury thermometer, installed in a glass bulb supplied by Mark > Hugo. The > flow rate will be measured with a meter and with a stopwatch and > graduated > cylinder. Ambient air temperature, the air temperature inside the box > at three > locations, and the surface temperature of the machine will also be > measured. > The water temperature inside the machine can be read off of a dial > thermometer. We do not want to replace it with a thermocouple yet, > because we > do not want to disturb the machine. > > The air in the box will be well stirred by the Kinetic Furnace blower. > Since > we own the Davis Instruments Anemometer/Thermometer Data Logger, I > suppose we > might as well install it at the machine outlet duct (inside the box), > to > perform air flow calorimetry. This would give us a calorimeter inside > a > calorimeter. > > I am not sure how many data ports the computer A/D card has, but if > possible > it should record: > > 1. Ambrobe DM-II readings > 2. The two inlet thermocouple readings averaged > 3. The two outlet thermocouple readings averaged > 4. Water flow rate > 5. Ambient air temperature > 6. Machine surface temperature > 7. Box air temperature at the roof of the box > 8. Box air temperature at the machine inlet duct > 9. Box air temperature at the machine outlet duct > 10. Air flow at the machine outlet duct > > Item 1 - 4 are used for water flow calorimetry, items 8 - 10 are used > for air > flow calorimetry. > > I believe at this flow rate it would be a bad idea to use a steady > stream of > tap water through the cooling loop. A closed loop would be better. > Here is the > path the water would follow, starting at a cooler: > > 1. A laboratory cooler, set a few degrees above ambient, at around 25 > deg C. I > hope we can get a reliable, used high capacity cooler. It should have > a > powerful pump, because the loop will be long and convoluted. It should > be > capable of removing a couple of kilowatts of heat at least. > > 2. Uninsulated plastic pipe. > > 3. The inlet glass bulb with the thermocouples and the mercury > thermometer, > placed near the box. Heat losses from the cooler to the glass bulb do > not > matter, as long as they are reasonably consistent. > > 4. A short length of uninsulated pipe leading into the box, attached > to the > radiator inside the box. > > 5. The radiator, to capture heat. > > 6. Another short length of uninsulated pipe leading to the outlet > glass bulb > with the thermocouples and thermometer. Heat losses beyond the outlet > thermocouples are encouraged. > > 7. Yet another automobile radiator may be needed outside the box to > shed the > heat, because laboratory coolers do not usually have the capacity to > remove 8 > KW of heat. The external radiator might be placed outside the building > in > summer. If it does not cool the water sufficiently, we might spray a > little > water on the outside and blow it with a fan. The system may need three > radiators in all: one for the Kinetic Furnace water; one to pick up > the heat > inside the box; and one to shed the heat outside the box. > > 8. Return to cooler, which should have enough capacity to remove the > remaining > heat, bringing the temperature back down to 25 deg C again. > > From time to time a little Clorox should be added to the water to keep > algae > and bacteria from clogging the flow. > > > Experimental Method > > Calibration Run: The blower and joule heater will be turned on, the > Kinetic > Furnace rotor will be left off. Power will be set at 1 KW and held for > 4 to 8 > hours. Then it will be stepped up to 2 KW, then 3, 4 and 5 KW. The > cooling > water Delta T and the air temperature in the box should both increase > in a > linear fashion. > > Test Run: The Kinetic Furnace rotor will be turned on. After the > machine water > reaches the recommended temperature in about five minutes, the blower > will be > turned on and left on for the duration of the test. In a commercial > installation the blower turns on and off under thermostatic control, > as the > machine cycles on and off: each time the rotor turns on, the blower > waits for > the water to reach the excess heat onset temperature. Since the rotor > will > remain on that will not be necessary. > > The cooling water loop will be turned on and the box will be sealed. > Some heat > may be lost while the door is open, and some may be stored up when the > machine > starts up. This will make no difference because we plan to run for > weeks > uninterrupted, as it has been in previous tests. The "stored heat" > hypothesis > will not be an issue. > > From time to time during the run, a two-hour 1 or 2 KW calibration > pulse from > the joule heater will be added. > > > Heavy Water Test > > If the first run produces excess heat, the machine will be opened up > and a > small amount of heavy water will be added. If this machine works the > way > Stringham's cavitation devices do, heavy water should increase the > excess heat > tremendously, and it might cause heat after death. This test should be > performed with caution. It should be noted that Stringham's device is > far more > efficient than the Kinetic Furnace, with a better input to output > ratio. The > Kinetic Furnace has some advantages: it works at higher power levels > and > higher temperatures, and it is rugged. > > > Safety Concerns > > I think it is unlikely that machines of this nature produce measurable > radiation, but to ensure safety a radiation meter will be placed by > the > machine at all times. > > The machine and the test apparatus will cause some conventional > dangers from > hot water and heavy electric motors. Earlier prototypes had rubber > hoses > between the rotor and heat exchanger. Occasionally these popped off, > shooting > blistering steam across the room. This model is equipped with heavy > duty woven > steel hoses, which look safer to me. The electric motor will be > operated in > close proximity to the water flow calorimetry pipes and heat > exchanger, so > care must be taken to ensure that no leaks develop inside the box. > Finally, as > noted above, I do not think it would be wise to let the temperature > inside the > box climb too high. I would keep it below 50 deg C, by increasing the > water > flow if necessary. An emergency thermostat inside the box should cut > off power > to the rotor if the air temperature in the box exceeds 50 deg C. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 09:28:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16765; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:11:45 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <3545FD2A.DF79674F verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:00:42 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Giorgio Fontana's paper References: <3545E65C.5E5C152F verisoft.com.tr> <3545F6D6.5775@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"YUtcd1.0.o54.nAWHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17974 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > > Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > "On the contrary it is compatible with a beam of millimetric or submillimetric gravitational radiation generated by the decay of Cooper-pairs" > > James Cox, editor of Antigravity News, has found this effect > experimentally and applied for a patent. Apparently, Antigravity News is not online. Do you have a link or supply more info about the issue? Thanks, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 09:39:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17693; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:37:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:37:15 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980428123952.00bcd230 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:39:52 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: References: <199804272203.PAA22898 mx1.eskimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"gz-s32.0.MK4.xMWHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17975 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:13 PM 4/27/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >An arc will run at a few tens of volt, but it will still require a high >voltage to start. A ballast resistor makes a lot of heat (which should be >kept away from the experiment, where you measure temperatures), but it's >the cheapest way to run the experiment. There is a neat trick for starting DC (and if you are really tricky AC) arcs. Put a transformer in the circut: Transformer + _____/\/\/\/\/\/\______()_()_()_()_______ | =========== | DC Ballast | _()_()_ | Supply Resistor _|_ | | V ___ |-|(--/_| Arc | A - ____________________|____________________| That is supposed to be a small capacitor and a momentary closed switch across the primary of the transformer, charging circut left to your imagination. During operation, the transformer will just add inductance to the circut and, in concert with the capacitor across the supply, smooth out the current through the arc. But when you discharge the (small) capacitor through the primary of the transformer, you will instantly create several hundred volts across the arc gap. >A variac is probably the best way to vary the voltage and current during >operation. From experience, don't use variacs with AC or pulsed arcs. They add too much inductance to the system, and the inductance varies with the voltage. >If you try to vary resistor connections or taps, you will be playing with >hot wires at 600 volt --- definitely life threatening, and very painful if >you live through it. Don't do it that way. Hadn't realized anyone could think of doing it that way. We connected the taps to a 600 VAC, 50 Amp rated rotary switch mounted in a steel control panel. All exposed wiring was inside the chassis. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 09:49:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21078; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980428124712.009e39b0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:47:12 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 glow discharge... Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_WoJy.0.G95.YVWHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17976 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:54 PM 4/27/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: >> Quartz glass *transmits* most UV. > >According to Dr. Mills, the frequency is in the over 900 angstrom range >which is stopped by materials that transmit visible wavelengths. Yep, but quartz (and diamond) are not most materials. They both pass UV pretty nicely. >> If you look at the arc without *serious* UV protection, >> you could destroy your eyesight. Please be caareful. One case of welder's flash, and you will say, never again! >The reactor tube is fully enclosed by 1/4 inch polycarbonate plates. This will stop most UV, but I still recommend wearing Ray-Bans or UV protective goggles. Forget the UV for a moment, that arc can burn your retina with ordinary light, just like looking at the sun without protection. Ordinary sunglasses, if not cheap junk will completely eliminate that risk. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 09:50:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20396; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:49:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:49:00 -0700 Message-ID: <354606B0.BFC skylink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:41:20 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Giorgio Fontana's paper References: <3545E65C.5E5C152F verisoft.com.tr> <3545F6D6.5775@skylink.net> <3545FD2A.DF79674F@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PJjmx3.0.X-4.xXWHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17978 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > James Cox, editor of Antigravity News, has found this effect > > experimentally and applied for a patent. > > Apparently, Antigravity News is not online. Do you have a link or supply > more info about the issue? Not at hand, but it is on the way. I will post it when available. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 09:52:49 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22110; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980428125124.00bf0100 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:51:24 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <34f4db2c.354551d9 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"W6n3T2.0.LP5.XZWHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17977 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 11:49 PM 4/27/98 EDT, VCockeram wrote: >Yeah Mike, I accidently brushed against the hot lead of the .6 MFD 2400 >volt cap after it had been powerd off for a couple of hours. The burn is >1/8 dia x 1/32 deep in the side of my thumb and I may be run out of the >nieghborhood for uttering high volume profanity. >It's not infected though. I know it sounds silly at first, but I used to solder 1 Megohm 1/4 watt resistors across all my high voltage caps. You still want to "crowbar" them if you are making changes right after a run, but you never find yourself asking, "Did I remember to discharge that?" Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 11:34:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06493; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35461E50.5501 skylink.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:22:08 -0700 From: Robert Stirniman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: eprint: gr-qc/9804069 References: <3545CAED.E8AAC69D verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ETEp93.0.Mb1.82YHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17979 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: > http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9804069 > General Relativity and Quantum > Cosmology, abstract > gr-qc/9804069 Most of the papers on the LANL physics preprint server are in a gzipped postscipt format, which can be a nuisance to unravel. The above paper is in an HTML format and can be read and printed easily with your web browser. The paper contains what seems to be a plausible explanation for Podkletnov's Tampere experiment. Regards, Robert Stirniman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 12:02:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11600; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:00:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:00:39 -0700 Posted-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:55:49 +0400 (MEDT) Message-ID: <35462399.72423A90 verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:44:41 +0300 From: Hamdi Ucar Organization: Orchestra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: eprint: gr-qc/9804069 References: <3545CAED.E8AAC69D verisoft.com.tr> <35461E50.5501@skylink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kok52.0.7r2.MTYHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17980 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Stirniman wrote: > > The paper contains what seems to be a plausible explanation > for Podkletnov's Tampere experiment. Yes, correct. Forget GR shielding. I was always suspicious about it because an alternative experiment differing disk axis) and normal from vertical direction (which is the gravitational direction, or the direction of all matter on rest on surface on earth continuously accelerate against gravity) was never performed. There is many of key points of the theory clearly be confirmed experimentally and will guide further researches. May NASA/USAF could perform new experiment in the light of this new theory in few months. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 12:14:45 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12960; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:10:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:10:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:02:08 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Kinetic Furnace testing plans Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199804281506_MC2-3B4D-32B5 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"txOHV.0.OA3.ScYHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17981 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed said: >> From time to time a little Clorox should be added to the water to keep algae and bacteria from clogging the flow. Experimental Method << I'm sure Jed & Gene have not forgotten about the effect on performance of the composition of the raw water and any additives they may use. If I remember correctly, the source of the water was reported to have a significant effect, if not on the thermal output then on the life of the physical components. My own experience with devices in high cavitation environments showed a very wide range of resistance to cavitation depending on the location of the device geographically. I found that excessively pure water was most destructive due to its high corrosive activity on grain boundaries exacerbated by high cavitation. Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 12:22:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15399; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:20:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:20:24 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:17:19 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Smot, Rmod and Pmod (DMEC demise) also Stan Meyer Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199804281519_MC2-3B4D-F01C compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"U75iq3.0.Sm3.tlYHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17982 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Rob asked: >> On a more morbid note, now that Stan Meyer is dead, what happens to his research work, who gets to look at it. << As far as I have heard, Meyer's brother is supposed to be carrying on his work. I don't know whether the $$$$$$$ research project is still on the cards though. His will should make interesting reading if it ever gets published after probate is granted (if the US runs the same procedure as we do here in the UK) Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 12:34:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14777; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:24:07 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Christopher Davies ??? Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199804281527_MC2-3B4D-F09A compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"cdNvb2.0.pc3.auYHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17983 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Has anyone come across an experimenter called Chris Davies. I think he lives in Essex England, but I have not located his email address in C/Serve. He may be using some corporate id. I gather he is playing with pulsed electrolysis a la Meyer. Any info would be welcomed. TIA Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 12:55:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21305; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:46:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:46:11 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:38:16 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Don't broadcast personal info!!! Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804281541_MC2-3B3A-1DB5 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"snrqf2.0.hC5.28ZHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17984 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:rmforall earthlink.net Rich Murray posted a brief message with Oriani's address, which is fine, but he inadvertently included a statement from someone saying that she will soon be going on vacation. PLEASE DON'T DO THAT! Internet postings are universally accessible these days, even to criminals. Do not post messages like: "I'll be out of town next week but I'll leave the door open and key to the safe is under the coffee pot," unless you want to hire a thief, the way Alec Guinness did in "The Lavender Hill Mob." There is a utility search program for the newsgroups called Dejavu which instantly finds messages posted by anyone to any newsgroup in the last few years. It is unlikely, but someone might be stalking the person or casting around for a house to rob. Abusive men are look for ex-wives. People are no more violent today than they ever were, but our technology amplifies their abilities. Crazy people can use the Internet to find victims. Little boys who once had fist fights or threw stones now use automatic weapons. Cold fusion may give every citizen a cheap thermonuclear weapon so we can settle our disputes with a bang. Actually this leads to interesting digression, which I have been pondering for a long time. I do not often mix in politics with the discussion here, but I wonder about the point of view of people who oppose all forms of gun control. The extremists want to give every American the right to unfettered, unregistered ownership of guns, which are lethal technology circa 1776. Some of them are in favor of allowing uncontrolled ownership of machine guns, circa 1914. Why do they draw the line there? Even the NRA has accepted an arbitrary limit to firepower and technical sophistication. If you believe individuals have the right to be as well armed as government troops were in 1776, why not allow a private citizen today to buy an army surplus tank, a bazooka, or jet aircraft and fuel-air bombs? The extremists sometimes say we must have weapons to prevent the government from abusing power, but no group of people armed with handguns and rifles alone could effectively oppose the U.S. Army. I myself interpret the Constitutional literally: citizens in well-regulated militias have the right to bear arms. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 13:43:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22743; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:31:38 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Kinetic Furnace test: two loops Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804281635_MC2-3B43-6D24 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"0ycSZ1.0.HZ5.2vZHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17985 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex There is some confusion here about how we are thinking of testing the Kinetic Furnace. I'll have to draw a diagram for the article. We intend to use two, independent fluid loops. One is built into the gadget, going from the rotor to the heat exchanger and back. Water circulates through this very quickly. People have suggested by private e-mail that we should measure the temperature of the water in this loop, at the inlet and out connections from rotor to pump. Pope did use this method, but he found it unsatisfactory. The flow is very rapid and I think it is choppy. We will made a separate loop from a laboratory cooler to the enclosed box and back. This will circulate more smoothly and more slowly, making a higher Delta T. By the way, Pope told me the heat exchanger in the Furnace was custom designed and built by the company that supplies radiators to Ford Motor Company. It has to remove enough heat to keep the machine from getting too hot, but not so much that the machine falls below the critical temperature and stops generating excess heat. It has to have the inlet and outlet hoses at specified positions. Pope says they fiddled with it for years, doing extensive analysis and engineering. Henry Scudder suggested we use "a radiator and fan cooling system from an old VW Rabbit or Jetta at an automobile boneyard" because the electric fan is build to fit in with the radiator. Yeah, I once owned a Wabbit. The fan died in downtown Atlanta. I had to stop every few miles and wait for the engine to cool. The Wabbit fan is triggered by a thermostat and it often runs after the car is parked. That's interesting, but I think we should avoid used equipment. It will be dirty. Dirt and contamination might block the flow or change the heat capacity of the water. Also, I see no need to trigger the fan on and off. I would leave a small fan running constantly. We do not care how much heat the external radiator dumps as long as the lab cooler can handle it. If the radiator makes the water too cold the cooler will add a little heat back. I suggested a little Clorox bleach may be needed to clean out organic grunge from the tubes and heat exchangers. Norman Horwood wrote: I'm sure Jed & Gene have not forgotten about the effect on performance of the composition of the raw water and any additives they may use. If I remember correctly, the source of the water was reported to have a significant effect, if not on the thermal output then on the life of the physical components. Norman may have the idea that we intend to run this water through the machine. As I said, this will be a separate cooling loop. I would not recommend adding bleach or anything else to the water in the machine, except heavy water if the first tests show excess heat. A little bleach will not measurably change the heat capacity of the cooling water. We know, we have tested for that. The water should be drained and changed out periodically. I would use distilled water from a grocery store or pharmacy. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 13:58:08 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02836; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:53:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:53:31 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:54:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Don't broadcast personal info!!! Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199804281541_MC2-3B3A-1DB5 compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <14F74613D17 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"Dox7P1.0.1i.A7aHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17986 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > with handguns and rifles alone could effectively oppose the U.S. Army. I > myself interpret the Constitutional literally: citizens in well-regulated > militias have the right to bear arms. > > - Jed I hate to nitpick, but the Constitution says that a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. It then goes on to say that the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Once again, sorry about the nitpicking, but this is such a delicate topic that wording really does matter, in many cases. JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 15:20:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24508; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:18:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:18:55 -0700 Message-ID: <35468044.72AD bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:20:04 -0700 From: Terry Blanton Reply-To: commengr bellsouth.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't broadcast personal info!!! References: <14F74613D17 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DXfvZ.0.n-5.ENbHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17987 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: The Bill of Rights (Declared in force December 15, 1791) [Article I snipped.] Article II Right to Keep and Bear Arms. A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. [end of quote] From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 15:24:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25048; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:21:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:21:08 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804282220.RAA22127 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: Don't broadcast personal info!!! In-Reply-To: <14F74613D17 hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> from Jay Olson at "Apr 28, 98 01:54:27 pm" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:20:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PhSxm3.0.B76.IPbHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17988 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > > with handguns and rifles alone could effectively oppose the U.S. Army. I > > myself interpret the Constitutional literally: citizens in well-regulated > > militias have the right to bear arms. > > > > - Jed > > I hate to nitpick, but the Constitution says that a well regulated > militia is necessary for the security of a free state. It then goes > on to say that the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall > not be infringed. Once again, sorry about the nitpicking, but this > is such a delicate topic that wording really does matter, in many > cases. > > JAY OLSON Well regulated meant well trained. Militia is defined in the federal code as all able bodied males 19-45 years old. So it said that all adult males had the right to bear arms and train in their use. -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 15:27:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25411; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:23:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:23:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:20:34 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804281822_MC2-3B4D-FCAA compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"67rL51.0.zC6.iRbHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17989 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex; "Jay Olson" >INTERNET:olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu I realize that this topic can easily mushroom into a full-blown 200 message debate / flamefest, so I promise I will not post any more messages about this, but I cannot resist asking Jay Olson for a reading. He pointed out, sensibly enough, that the wording in the U.S. Constitution is a little a vague and it does say "the people" can keep and bear arms. I wish they had written that part more clearly. Since the first part of the paragraph talks about well regulated militia I always thought it meant anyone is free to join the army. You cannot establish a class of nobility with exclusive access to weapons, like the European knights and royalty, or the Japanese samurai. One class or group cannot monopolize the Power of the State. That was a big issue in Europe, although it may have faded by 1790. Maybe I misinterpret . . . Anyway, since Jay apparently believes the conventional reading of that section, I would be fascinated to hear what he thinks the dilemma I posed. Let me rephrase it: Suppose, for the sake of argument, we say the Constitution guarantees unfettered ownership of weapons. Presumably the authors had in mind the most effective and advanced weapons of the 1790s, when the Constitution was written: rifles, pistols, cannons, etc. -- the sort of thing a Militia would have access to. They were not saying Americans should be free to own bats and scythes. If that is what Article Two means, doesn't it implicitly give citizens the right to own heavy weapons today, such as fuel-air bombs? And if it does not grant that right, what good does it do? What is it for? I do not think you could resist armed tyranny in the U.S. without sophisticated weapons. A ruthless U.S. dictator faced with guerrilla warfare like the 1944 Warsaw uprising would use nuclear weapons, I suppose. A friend of mine was in the Japanese Imperial Army in 1945. He was a given a bamboo spear to fight the U.S. Army. He remarked afterwards that you cannot fight atom bombs with bamboo spears. I do not suppose shotguns or pistols would be any more effective. Perhaps a moderate view would be that a population armed with obsolete, 200-year-old technology can resist a moderately dangerous tyrant, like Huey Long or Joe McCarthy, but if we get a Hitler we are out of luck, and our handguns will do no good. Or perhaps I am mistaken, and the purpose of Article Two is to let citizens to protect themselves against criminals, not the government. In that case, there should be no objection to registering weapons with the government. I am not trying to stir up a flamefest here. I view this as a genuine logical dilemma. I have never seen this line of thought debated. One more historical note: In 1790 a militia with access to guns and cannon had military parity with other armies of roughly equal size. Technology did not make much difference. There was not a large "spread" of varying capabilities. That is why properly trained U.S. forces were able to defeat British armies in the war of 1812. (Once or twice, anyway.) A big country could not launch a technological Desert Storm or the 1940 Blitzkrieg. There was, however, one Big Weapon that was irresistible, wherever it could reach. The man-of-war battleships of that era were more mobile and carried more firepower than any small nation or local militia could aspire to. I have never read of an incident in the U.S. in which a group of private citizens claimed the right to own or operate battleships or even gunboats. In 1860, state governments, not private individuals, claimed the right to confederate, procure heavy weapons, and make war. I see no precedent in U.S. history for citizens arming themselves with war-capable weapons. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 15:53:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29925; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:50:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:50:50 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:56:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd72f8$d1b0c240$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"o6Hp82.0.UJ7.8rbHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17990 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: >Here are the numbers: >High Voltage Primary Resistance is 9.65 ohms >High Voltage Secondary Resistance is 19,680 ohms >Frequency is 14,000 Hz >Voltage measured across the High Voltage Primary is 184.0 vac >measured with a Fluke 8060 A/AA True RMS Multimeter with the arc on. . >Should I insert a say, 1 ohm resistor in the primary feed and measure >voltage drop across it? Would this help with computing input power? - Hi Vince, I can't see any way to use these numbers to get a reasonable estimate of tube power input. Unfortunately, using the H2 w/o K as a control is not very accurate either. The tube voltage drop will be strongly influenced by the low work function of the K which will be pumped onto the electrodes and could easily lower sustaining voltage from 300V to 100V. A more accurate control might be to use H2 with Na instead of K. - This is a technique I have successfully used many times with tubes operating in the glow discharge mode. In arc mode power cannot be easily estimated. A series load resistor must be used to give reasonable operating current stability. At the frequencies you are using, there may be some delay in the rebreakdown of the tube as the voltage reverses. An oscilloscope can be used to determine the on time and the voltage drop across the tube when on. The driver voltage waveform can be observed on another channel and used to estimate the integrated average current through the load resistor during the on time. The calculation is usually simplified by the relatively constant voltage of the tube in the on state. - Without a scope the measurement will be less certain but, when you are using a DC drive, the average DC voltage drops across the tube and load resistor can give an approximate power. Use a floating high input impedance meter with an added R/C filter to provide known averaging characteristics. - Some comments on the tube design: Horace suggested putting the K near the anode. I would suggest putting it nearer the cathode. The vapor pressure will move the K through the entire tube and the hottest place in the DC operated tube will be near the cathode. The cathode fall is usually the largest energy loss in the tube. The positive column is the most power efficient ionization generator in glow discharge tubes. By shortening the active gap you have minimized the effect of this region. In looking at your temperature figures, it seems that the longer tube had a higher temperature ratio with vs without K. I also think you will find that the AC excitation may be more effective than DC in generating XSH. - Great work so far, but sleep is also a priority when working with high voltages and intense UV - be careful. Although the output proposed by Mills is vacuum UV, this will be captured by gas molecules and potentially re-radiated at frequencies the quartz will transmit. I am happy to hear that you have added Plexiglas shields, which should attenuate any harmful UV emissions. George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 16:00:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14696; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980428225543.21694.rocketmail send1a.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Anton Rager Subject: [OFF-TOPIC=OFF-LIST] Gun Control To: vortex-l eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <"SXh072.0.Pb3.VybHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17991 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed/All -- There is a time and place for these off-topic, political, and potentially inflamatory topics..... I may be mistaken, but I don't think it's here on this forum....check usenet for an appropriate forum. Things that probably don't need to be on this list are -- religious discussions, abortion, gun-control issues, environmental issues, non-vortexian politics.....and so on. Find a group that is already expecting this sort of thing, and you will probably have an overflowing emailbox full of opinions. Save the bandwidth for those ICCF7 summaries you've been posting :) Please don't take this the wrong way -- Regards, == Anton Rager a_rager yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 16:13:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02384; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:11:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:11:35 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980428175014.00ba3b50 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:50:14 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: watthour meter accuracy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"5rN8E1.0.5b.c8cHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17992 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, please skip this message. It's high-accuracy stuff.... My Westinghouse watthour meter (Kh=1) stacks up against our Clarke-Hess 2330 on a resistive load as follows: 2330 Westinghouse W/3220 ratio 71.1 68.2 .959 129 127 .984 201.5 200.5 .995 315 317.2 1.007 425 424 .998 660 657 .995 660 657 .995 (repeat) 805 803 .998 972 971 .999 At the lowest power level, 71 watts, the wheel took 52.77 seconds to revolve...i.e. really slow. Perhaps the apparent fall-off in the watthour meter's response at low power levels is the result of friction in the wheel's support bearing. Anyway, above 200 watts, the watthour meter is just great...on a resistive load. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 16:27:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17655; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980428181613.00b9fc1c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:16:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Case preparations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"emb81.0.nJ4.bEcHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17993 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I spoke with Dr. Case this morning and got all the picky details of his preferred protocol. He also gave me the catalog number, G-75E, of the Pd-on-carbon catalyst from United Catalysts that has worked best in his experiments. I am trying to get some from them now. Meanwhile, we already have some 1% Pd on carbon catalyst on hand and Dr. Case indicated that it would probably suffice to see the effect. Today I completed a new chamber base which has three K thermocouples protruding thru it. The chamber is the same one we used for the BLP runs and it will be filled nearly full of the powdered Pd catalyst (about 100 cc's). The three temperature probes will sample the catalyst temperature at the bottom, middle, and top of the bed. The new base passed my high-vacuum leak test....Yea! Tomorrow, I'll probably get the whole shootin'-match hooked up and running. Once the long equilibrations and pumpdowns are underway, I'll write up a more complete description and post it on our web site. Stay tuned.... Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:00:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13256; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:53:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:53:56 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <35466C0B.42D227A2 css.mot.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:53:48 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control References: <199804281822_MC2-3B4D-FCAA compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jIEss3.0.zE3.JmcHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17994 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > He pointed out, sensibly enough, that the wording in the U.S. > Constitution is a little a vague and it does say "the people" can > keep and bear arms. I wish they had written that part more clearly. Jed, with all due respect, you are generalizing outside your knowledge base here again. A great deal of research has been done on both sides of the issue to clarify the exact intent of: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." If you go back and read the heated debates over the wording before ratification, the intent is most clear. The above concise verbage is actually pretty tame with regard to the vehemence expressed at the time. Tyrany comes in many disguises and historically sneaks into power masquerading as a "greater good". Apathy of the people has let it happen over and over, and will continue to do so until the end of time. The best illustration I have is this gem: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" - Adolph Hitler, April 15, 1935 I don't consider myself paranoid just prudent. History repeats itself because we are all arrogant enough to think we know better than our silly ancestors. The technologies and borders may change, but our foolishness remains constant because we all start from scratch the day we are born. Just my perspective, not neccessarily that of my employer. John E. Steck ------------------------------------o}{: Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:01:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14209; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:58:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:58:15 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Jed Rothwell Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:57:12 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199804281822_MC2-3B4D-FCAA compuserve.com> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"RRPGX2.0.qT3.LqcHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17995 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28-Apr-98, Jed Rothwell wrote: >Blah Blah Blah...... Ya just had to know that Jed Rothwell was going to come on with some diatribe that is longer than the Bill of Rights, itself :) -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' "The Rights of the PEOPLE to bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed." From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:28:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23596; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:26:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:26:17 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08C4 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:25:40 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"e7x5V.0.Sm5.cEdHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17997 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed You are asking some very good questions here, and deserve a considered reply, not an emotional one. Hank > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:72240.1256 compuserve.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 3:20 PM > To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com > Subject: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control > > To: Vortex; "Jay Olson" >INTERNET:olso3562 novell.uidaho.edu > > I realize that this topic can easily mushroom into a full-blown 200 > message > debate / flamefest, so I promise I will not post any more messages > about this, > but I cannot resist asking Jay Olson for a reading. He pointed out, > sensibly > enough, that the wording in the U.S. Constitution is a little a vague > and it > does say "the people" can keep and bear arms. I wish they had written > that > part more clearly. Since the first part of the paragraph talks about > well > regulated militia I always thought it meant anyone is free to join the > army. > You cannot establish a class of nobility with exclusive access to > weapons, > like the European knights and royalty, or the Japanese samurai. One > class or > group cannot monopolize the Power of the State. That was a big issue > in > Europe, although it may have faded by 1790. Maybe I misinterpret . . . > Anyway, > since Jay apparently believes the conventional reading of that > section, I > would be fascinated to hear what he thinks the dilemma I posed. Let me > rephrase it: > > Suppose, for the sake of argument, we say the Constitution guarantees > unfettered ownership of weapons. Presumably the authors had in mind > the most > effective and advanced weapons of the 1790s, when the Constitution was > written: rifles, pistols, cannons, etc. -- the sort of thing a Militia > would > have access to. They were not saying Americans should be free to own > bats and > scythes. If that is what Article Two means, doesn't it implicitly give > citizens the right to own heavy weapons today, such as fuel-air bombs? > And if > it does not grant that right, what good does it do? What is it for? I > do not > think you could resist armed tyranny in the U.S. without sophisticated > weapons. A ruthless U.S. dictator faced with guerrilla warfare like > the 1944 > Warsaw uprising would use nuclear weapons, I suppose. A friend of mine > was in > the Japanese Imperial Army in 1945. He was a given a bamboo spear to > fight the > U.S. Army. He remarked afterwards that you cannot fight atom bombs > with bamboo > spears. I do not suppose shotguns or pistols would be any more > effective. > > Perhaps a moderate view would be that a population armed with > obsolete, > 200-year-old technology can resist a moderately dangerous tyrant, like > Huey > Long or Joe McCarthy, but if we get a Hitler we are out of luck, and > our > handguns will do no good. Or perhaps I am mistaken, and the purpose of > Article > Two is to let citizens to protect themselves against criminals, not > the > government. In that case, there should be no objection to registering > weapons > with the government. > > I am not trying to stir up a flamefest here. I view this as a genuine > logical > dilemma. I have never seen this line of thought debated. > > One more historical note: In 1790 a militia with access to guns and > cannon had > military parity with other armies of roughly equal size. Technology > did not > make much difference. There was not a large "spread" of varying > capabilities. > That is why properly trained U.S. forces were able to defeat British > armies in > the war of 1812. (Once or twice, anyway.) A big country could not > launch a > technological Desert Storm or the 1940 Blitzkrieg. There was, however, > one Big > Weapon that was irresistible, wherever it could reach. The man-of-war > battleships of that era were more mobile and carried more firepower > than any > small nation or local militia could aspire to. I have never read of an > incident in the U.S. in which a group of private citizens claimed the > right to > own or operate battleships or even gunboats. In 1860, state > governments, not > private individuals, claimed the right to confederate, procure heavy > weapons, > and make war. I see no precedent in U.S. history for citizens arming > themselves with war-capable weapons. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:28:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23391; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:25:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:25:52 -0700 From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:27:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199804281822_MC2-3B4D-FCAA compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1530114266A hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"9C0Hg3.0.-i5.EEdHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17996 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes, Jed, I do agree that there is a dilemma here. The armies of today are much more lethal than they were in the past, yet one may not wish to put nuclear weapons into the hands of civilians to assure a benign government! However, I believe that in the early days of WW2 when the Japanese were a major military power, it was concluded by their military that a conventional invasion of the USA (the Oregon coast I think) was not practicle, since nearly 100% of the population would be armed. I believe that the widespread ownership of firearms in the US is an effective check against tyrranical government. If a tyrranical government were set up, the sheer number of armed civilians could make it very, very difficult for the government to enforce it's law. It is clear that armed civilians could not form an army capable of defeating the US army on a conventional battlefield, but a huge underground of armed citizens would be very hard to deal with. In the US of today, I do not believe that we are in danger of this kind of tyrrany, because of the widespread ownership of firearms. However, as it was pointed out before, the first step to tyrranical government IS the disarming of the people (Nazi Germany, Cuba, USSR, Japan of the 1930's and 40's, etc.). JAY OLSON JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:32:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25883; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:29:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:29:28 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <001c01bd7305$4777b4a0$5f8cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:19:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"0MkBu3.0.FK6.dHdHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17998 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Davis To: Jed Rothwell Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 5:59 PM Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control >On 28-Apr-98, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >>Blah Blah Blah...... > > Ya just had to know that Jed Rothwell was going to come on with > some diatribe that is longer than the Bill of Rights, itself :) Are you advocating JED CONTROL, Chuck? :-) Regards, Frederick >-- > .-. .-. > / \ .-. .-. / \ > / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ >-/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- > RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / > \ / `-' `-' \ / > `-' `-' > "The Rights of the PEOPLE to bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed." > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:42:26 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01756; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:38:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:38:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jay Olson" Organization: University of Idaho To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:37:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Priority: normal In-reply-to: <35466C0B.42D227A2 css.mot.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <1532DA0343B hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Resent-Message-ID: <"fFFJp.0.MR.GQdHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18000 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > The best illustration I have is this gem: > > "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has > full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, > and the world will follow our lead into the future!" - Adolph Hitler, April 15, > 1935 > > John E. Steck Yes, this embodies my response to Jed's question. Hitler was able to blizkrieg cities off the face of the earth, yet he could not control his own country without disarming his citizens. OK, no more gun control posts for now, I promise! :-) JAY OLSON From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 17:43:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00725; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:29:25 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"0dtvK.0.FB.PLdHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/17999 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Chuck Davis wrote: > On 28-Apr-98, Jed Rothwell wrote: > > >Blah Blah Blah...... > > Ya just had to know that Jed Rothwell was going to come on with > some diatribe that is longer than the Bill of Rights, itself :) I thought it was an interesting point about a controversial point in the USA. Really it comes down to a question of individual rights versus collective rights. Today is the anniversary of what is known in Australia as the Port Arthur Massacre, when a crazy with automatic weapons killed 32 people. If he'd had just a regular rifle he could have been overpowered when he walked into a resturant and openned fire. In addition it had been known for some time that he was amassing a collection of automatic weapons, locals in the area stayed away from him as much as possible but the police were powerless to prevent it because at that time there were no controls on such weapons. Since the Port Arthur massacre automatic and semi-automatic weapons have been banned and many 100's of thousands have been turned in. The argument about the Nazi's is a classic piece of pro-gun propaganda. The problem was not ownership of guns as much as the government having a far larger force of enforcers (the SS and the German Army). Against them individual families and even well organized opposition (such as the Communists) had no chance, even with a large collection of guns. So the question you Americans have to ask yourself is: what price are you prepared to pay for your individual right to own high-powered weapons? Are 10's of thousands of murders of year worth it? Do you feel safer at night with a weapon next your bed, knowing that if there is a burgular he may also be armed? Was Waco worth it? Of course it is your decision. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 18:04:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05397; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BD72DF.C06415A0 pm3-142.gpt.infi.net> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Biefield-Brown effect false? Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:56:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD72DF.C06415A0" Resent-Message-ID: <"ye6uf2.0.FK1.qkdHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18001 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD72DF.C06415A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- From: Robert Stirniman[SMTP:robert skylink.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 9:05 AM To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Biefield-Brown effect false? >I have copies of these two experimental reports and will dig them >out and pepare a summary and criticism. In my opinion, both are flawed. > Test of Hooper gravity/electromagnetic coupling (results negative) - Millis (95) > Test of Biefield-Brown effect (results negative) - Tally for Mead (91) I would much appreciate it if you would. BTW: What is the "Hooper gravity/electromagnetic coupling"? Kyle R. 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Mcallister" To: "'freenrg-l eskimo.com'" Cc: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: Deyo Experiment-tests confirmed Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:10:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA00332 Resent-Message-ID: <"luQ-Q2.0.O6.owdHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18002 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hello all: I have tested the Deyo setup with a piece of 18AWG wire strung between two wood beams, and powered by a car battery. When the voltage was positive to my left (I was facing the wire), the wire moved away from me. When negative to my left, it moved toward m e. I noted last night that the magnetic fields surround the wire with a certain spin direction. The Rambaut spinning ball experiment may indicate that there is some interaction between the spin of the magnetic field and the experimental setup. Also, Deyo notes that when small pieces of paper are attached to a thinner wire, the pieces of paper twist in one direction around the wire. I must gain more info on this effect, and plan to continue my experiments. Note that this twist of the paper may indicate a magnetic spin interaction also. THIS IS ONLY A THEORY Kyle Randall Mcallister Email: stk sunherald.infi.net Phone: 228-875-0629 Fax: 228-872-5837 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 18:53:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15039; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:50:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:50:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:48:16 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com cc: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control In-Reply-To: <1532DA0343B hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"EtAq7.0.ug3.aTeHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18003 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Jay Olson wrote: > > > The best illustration I have is this gem: > > > > "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has > > full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, > > and the world will follow our lead into the future!" - Adolph Hitler, April 15, > > 1935 > > > > John E. Steck > > Yes, this embodies my response to Jed's question. Hitler was able to > blizkrieg cities off the face of the earth, yet he could not control > his own country without disarming his citizens. > This is clearly not correct. He didn't need gun control to keep his citizens under his thumb. Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 18:57:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16417; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:53:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:53:58 -0700 From: Chuck Davis To: Martin Sevior Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:25:31 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"ci4Ex3.0.L04.rWeHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18004 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28-Apr-98, Martin Sevior wrote: >So the question you Americans have to ask yourself is: what price are you >prepared to pay for your individual right to own high-powered weapons? 1000 newborn babies! We suck their brains out, anyway. Why not just shoot 'em? -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' Have you ever seen a _gun_ just jump up and kill someone? From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 19:02:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17356; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:56:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Chuck Davis To: Jay Olson Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:33:35 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1532DA0343B hawthorn.csrv.uidaho.edu> X-Mailer: YAM 1.3.5 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck Organization: ROSHI Corporation Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"VL2Hq2.0.2F4.sYeHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18005 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On 28-Apr-98, Jay Olson wrote: >OK, no more gun control posts for now, I promise! :-) Agreed, but if they can take away your guns, they can take away over-unity. They're giving away our rivers 8^\ -- .-. .-. / \ .-. .-. / \ / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ / \ -/--Chuck Davis -------\-----/---\---/-\---/---\-----/-----\-------/-------\-- RoshiCorp ROSHI.com \ / \_/ `-' \ / \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / `-' `-' http://www.his.com/~emerald7/roshi.cmp/roshi.html From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 19:40:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23868; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3546907C.3FA4 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:29:16 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Don't broadcast personal info!!! References: <199804281541_MC2-3B3A-1DB5 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"wll_m.0.pq5.o6fHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18006 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Jed! DejaNews does not include information from lists such as freenrg-l, vortex-l (private) or KeelyNet-L (private). However, I agree with your concern because some comments are crossposted to other news forums and even webpages. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 19:51:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26417; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3546932C.1FC7 keelynet.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:40:44 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy References: <3.0.1.32.19980428175014.00ba3b50 mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"Ry7Ii2.0.fS6.ZHfHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18007 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Scott! Thanks for that SUPERB COMPARISON of the watthour meter to a utility meter...I've always wondered how accurate such a device would be....this is an excellent redneck proof of overunity type claims.... One meter on the input side to show how much power the circuit was actually using. One meter on the output side prior to the load showing how much power the load was actually drawing... Best piece of useful info I've seen posted in awhile...THANKS!!!!! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:04:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01066; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:58:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:58:55 -0700 From: Puthoff Message-ID: <4c899cd0.35469748 aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:58:15 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Resent-Message-ID: <"YkNZZ.0.QG.kTfHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18008 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 4/28/98 5:12:38 PM, you wrote: <<2330 Westinghouse W/3220 ratio>> I guess you meant W/2330 ratio :-) Hal From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:18:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05485; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:14:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:14:51 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980428221529.0091b740 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:15:29 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy In-Reply-To: <4c899cd0.35469748 aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"VoOCp3.0.cL1.gifHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18009 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:58 PM 4/28/98 EDT, you wrote: > >In a message dated 4/28/98 5:12:38 PM, you wrote: > ><<2330 Westinghouse W/3220 ratio>> > >I guess you meant W/2330 ratio :-) oops! my dislexia is showing. Thanks. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:21:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06363; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:18:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:18:48 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980428221925.0094f8f0 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:19:25 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"jJFJN.0.KZ1.NmfHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18010 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >oops! my dislexia is showing. Thanks. my spelling is showing, too....dyslexia! Scott From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:24:21 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04058; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:15:32 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Beware of wrong materials!!! Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804282319_MC2-3B55-3C20 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"Fzk_E.0.F_.EpfHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18011 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To: Vortex In a message about a meter Scott Little jokes: Jed, please skip this message. It's high-accuracy stuff.... And in the next message I think he makes a low-accuracy mistake: I spoke with Dr. Case this morning and got all the picky details of his preferred protocol. He also gave me the catalog number, G-75E, of the Pd-on-carbon catalyst from United Catalysts that has worked best in his experiments. I am trying to get some from them now. Meanwhile, we already have some 1% Pd on carbon catalyst on hand and Dr. Case indicated that it would probably suffice to see the effect. STOP RIGHT THERE! Case is a laid back guy who spent eight years looking for the right material. When he "indicates" it will "probably work" I expect he means you should spend the next six months looking for the performance "sweet spot" and you might get this untested catalyst to work. I think it is absolutely essential that you use the same material Case does, if at all possible. We all have our weaknesses. I see no point in extreme instrument accuracy; Scott Little sometimes dispenses with material accuracy. I slop together a calorimeter and then try to use PRECISELY the right materials. Scott slaves to make an ultra accurate calorimeter and then he slaps any old material into it. On balance, I think my approach is more fruitful. Good material shows high sigma excess heat even in relatively crude calorimeters. Bad material never shows excess in any calorimeter, even one that can detect microwatts. Many experienced scientists including A. Takahashi, Storms, Cravens and Mizuno worked with crude equipment in the first phase of their experiments -- Mizuno built his first CF calorimeter in a few hours -- but they always paid close attention to materials. They devote weeks to preparing and testing materials. Materials are the key to cold fusion. I should add that Mizuno took eight months to build his second CF calorimeter. This long running dispute between Scott Little and I has often been played out between other workers in this field. Many fine scientists, like Fleischmann, believe in ultra precise calorimetry. Other excellent scientists share my point of view. I think Little and Fleischmann should stop and ask themselves *why*. What scientific purpose do the extra digits of precision serve? Would they be required in other areas of science, to measure heat at these levels? Is this pursuit of extraordinary high precision normal, logical, or a traditional part of science? Is it elegant or informative; does it address vital questions about cold fusion? People in favor of high precision, especially Mitch Swartz, insist that we must reduce noise to improve the S/N ratio. I find this illogical. There are two way to improve this ratio: 1. Reduce the noise; 2. Boost the signal. Noise is already close to zero in most calorimeters. Efforts to reduce it more will produce diminishing returns. Heroic measures will be required: more gadgets, more compensation heaters, more stirrers, more layers, more that will go wrong, or confuse the observers and make people suspect that you are accidentally adding heat with your add-on equipment. Noise is near zero but signal can be increased indefinitely. A cold fusion reaction might produce 1 watt, or a megawatt, or a gigawatt. Therefore it is logical to budget most of your effort to increasing the signal rather than reducing noise. Little and Fleischmann say we must capture tiny indications of a CF reaction, but they have not said why, or what purpose it might serve, or how this will contribute the scientific understanding. They say it will help compel belief in the field, but experience has shown that is wrong. Fleischmann demonstrated to my satisfaction that the NHE experiments produced a tiny excess. I do not see how else you can explain the relaxation curves. (Even I can follow that level of mathematics!) But he will never persuade the NHE scientists. They have gone on record in the Nikkei Shimbun and here on Vortex with statements that Fleischmann's calorimetry stinks and his errors are "large enough to drive a truck through." I say that people should spend less time tweaking their instruments and more time practicing the techniques described by Storms to increase the chances of a reaction and to boost a weak reaction. I say that is ESSENTIAL you use the right materials. Don't even *think* about doing the experiment until you are sure you have the correct materials and detailed instructions. I would spend a few days with Case. I would watch his every move, and make a video of him as he performs the experiment before attempting to replicate. The man has been working on this experiment for 8 years, and working with catalysts for decades. I am sure he knows a great deal about dealing with them that Scott Little does not know. I expect there are dozens of ways to botch this experiment. There is art and hidden skill in every task, even baiting a fishhook. That is why Japanese apprentice cooks spend months practicing trivial tasks like cutting up vegetables. I believe I have made a compelling case for my point of view. I do not mind jokes about "Jed, please skip this message. It's high-accuracy . . ." but if this is a serious debate then after we have a good chuckle, Scott Little should explain why he disagrees with me, and why he thinks it is better to pursue extraordinary levels of precision and accuracy, far above those that would be justified in a project to measure normal chemical excess heat. He should write a formal article in Infinite Energy. As Chris Tinsley used to say, we do not want "extraordinary proof" we want ordinary, standard, off-the-shelf, boring, textbook proof. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:36:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06621; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:34:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: ewall-rsg postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Ed Wall Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:24:03 +0000 Message-ID: <19980429032359.AAA14805 Default> Resent-Message-ID: <"8VI8D3.0.Kd1.E_fHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18012 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: >Really it comes down to a question of individual rights versus collective >rights. Today is the anniversary of what is known in Australia as the >Port Arthur Massacre, when a crazy with automatic weapons killed 32 people. >If he'd had just a regular rifle he could have been overpowered when he >walked into a resturant and openned fire. A gun may be a little more "off-the-shelf" but a home made bomb or toxin can be a lot deadlier than a few out-of-control people with automatic weapons. I believe that we simply have to face the fact that we live in societies that have a great deal of technical ability and opportunity for a lot of individuals to do very destructive things. A myopic attempt to make us safer by tightly regulating or eliminating guns, those great symbols of individual power, misses the point. We are not safe from gun violence because there are a lot of people with poor self-control or who are drug-crazed or mentally imbalanced from exposure to industrial pollutants, or emotionally overwrought by typical events in this turbulent and, to some, inhumane society. I believe that there is a pretty strong correlation between indecent behavior (in the most general sense) and violence. We treat violence as a technical problem when it is a moral problem. One that is exacerbated by many regulatory attempts to deal with it. I understand that the militia movement really grew after the Waco incident, which started out as essentially a staged event for the media to make BATF look like a bunch of heroes. Why else would they hold a press conference BEFORE the raid and proceed with it even after they knew that the Davidians knew their intent? Actually, that made it a battle, not a raid. [Lee Hancock, "Television Reporter Says He Tipped Waco Cult," Washington Post, August 28, 1993. The authorities initially denied this, then eventually admitted they knew it.] We have always had a lot of guns in our population. The Davidians were about as well armed as most Texans. We have not always had the magnitude of problems we are having with gun violence. We are reaping the effects of a lot of social breakdown, of our failure to deal with our most pressing problems, which are not technical. >The argument about the Nazi's is a classic piece of pro-gun propaganda. There is a reason that cliches become cliches. I abhor violence, but weakness invites it. The risk we face from a mad gunman on any day compared to the multitude of other hazards we face (particularly behind the wheel) is quite terrifying, but not that statistically significant. The risk of collapsing into some form of tyrannical domination is not remote when one considers the historical and geographical predominance of such forms of control. Gun control really is essential to the success of dictatorship. The Second Ammendment was not put in there because we were intended to be good hunters. We can only be free if we control the power that freedom give us. Which brings us back to the topic of Vortex. How will we handle infinite energy if we fail to handle simple firearms? Ed Wall From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:39:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11846; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:36:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:36:26 -0700 Message-ID: <35469388.6410 gorge.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:42:16 -0700 From: tom gorge.net (Tom Miller) Reply-To: tom gorge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com CC: 72240.1256 compuserve.com Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control References: <199804290203.TAA18741 mx2.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"yquFp.0._u2.v0gHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18013 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed wrote: > I have never read of an > incident in the U.S. in which a group of private citizens claimed the right to > own or operate battleships or even gunboats. Actually, This was pretty common, as late as the early 19th Century. Consider Pirates. Then there are the "legal pirates" known as "Letters of Marque." These were private warships, chartered by nations at war. Also, to counter both of the previous, merchant ships commonly were armed with cannon, etc. similar to warships. Actually, an armed citizenry doesn't have to defeat the army of a would be tyrant. As long as a nation has as few as a hundred armed citizens who love freedom enough to sacrifice their lives, those who would engage in tyranny (at least the highest ranking 100, or so) must fear for THEIR lives. Or, they must impose that tyranny incrementally, "for our own good." The relevant point is not the character of the weapon, but the character of the man holding the weapon, that is important. Tom Miller From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:50:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14696; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:47:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:47:13 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: <7bc808dd.3546a272 aol.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:45:53 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"ORjdL1.0.Xb3._AgHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18016 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Last one tonight, I promise. This is an H2 with K run on Sunday April 26,1998, with tube 2, 5/8 electrode gap. It was a decent run. Be aware the charts data points for the first 65 minutes (arc in vacuum) are plotted every FIVE MINUTES (5) and from 70 minutes to end are every ONE MINUTE (1). Did this to save space on the graph and figured arc in vacuum is just not that critical. If this is bad science, tell me and I will plot uniformly for the entire chart. Attached file for Lotus folks is H2WK426.wk4 Below follows all the data and comments from my lab book for those who like to do their own plots. As before, M=minutes and Tc=degrees C +- .1 C M___ Tc_________________________ 0 23.5 ARC IN VACUUM FOR 65 MINUTES 5 104 10 130.1 15 138.1 20 141.8 25 144 30 147 35 150 40 155.5 45 156 50 158.3 55 157.5 60 170.8 65 163.7 BEGIN 5 MIN PURGE FILL CYCLE 70 188.5 END CYCLE H2 FILL 25.0 IN HG 71 204.8 72 213.8 73 222.2 74 228.8 75 231.8 76 233.1 77 233.4 78 233.8 79 234.2 80 235.6 81 236.5 82 237.7 83 238.3 84 239.1 85 239.5 86 240 87 240.3 VACUUM AT 25.3 H2 FILL TO 25.0 88 239.5 89 239 90 233.4 91 236.4 92 237.8 93 239 94 239.9 95 240.5 96 241 97 241.5 98 241.9 99 242.3 100 242.4 101 242.8 102 243.1 103 243.3 104 243.3 105 243.5 HIGHEST TEMP REACHED 106 243.5 107 243.3 108 243.2 109 243.1 110 242.9 111 242.5 112 242.5 113 242.4 114 242.4 115 242.5 116 242.5 117 242.5 118 242.6 119 242.5 120 242.4 ARC POWER OFF 121 193.2 122 148.7 123 113.5 124 86.9 125 70.4 126 57.3 127 48.7 128 42.5 129 38 END OF RUN From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:52:43 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08560; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:45:50 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_893821550_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"DFZgm1.0.b52.-BgHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18014 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_893821550_boundary Content-ID: <0_893821550 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Folks, here is some raw data with a run from Saturday night at 2100. I don't like this run because I was late for some scheduled overtime work installing a 3900 laser printer at one of my accounts, and was rushing things. I do not like to rush. These runs will be repeated in a couple of days. When I started this project I wanted to post all data, good and bad. This is bad because I didn't give time enough for things to become stable. So here follows some slap dash data, sloppy time keeping (every 5 minutes) and short run time. Regards, Vince Cockeram Las Vegas M=Minutes Tc=Temperature Degrees C +- .1 C H2 fill to 25.0 in Hg NO K in tube. 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vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_893821545_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"mjXfb2.0.B62.7CgHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18015 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_893821545_boundary Content-ID: <0_893821545 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII OK folks, here are the raw data numbers from the run using H2 and NO K in the tube. Kind of a calibration to see what plain old H2 does. This was run tube 1, the old one with 3 inch electrode spacing on Saturday morning, April 25, 1998 at 10 AM PDT.This will probably be the last run with this tube for a while. The data for the next two runs, H2 no K and H2 with K were run with tube number 2 that has a 5/8 electrode gap, the upper gap better than 3 inches away from the seal that gets leaky when hot. For those of you with Lotus I attach a file and graph of the run. Vince, Las Vegas Nevada M=Time in Minutes +-.01 Tc=Temperature in degrees C +- .1 C M__Tc__________________________________________ 0 44 ARC IN H2 NO K 3 INCH ARC GAP 4/25/98 1 52.1<----H2 PRESSURE AT 26.4 2 68.6 AMBIENT AIR 22.5 C 3 80 4 88 5 96.6 6 102.8 7 107 8 109.6 9 111.5 10 112.5 11 113.3 12 113.7 13 113.9 14 114 15 114.1 16 114.2 17 114.1 18 114.3 19 114.1 20 114.1 21 114.1 22 114 23 113.9 24 113.7 25 113.6 26 113.6 27 113.7 28 113.6 29 113.7 30 113.6<--ADD H2 TO 26.0 INDICATED 31 112.4 32 112.3 33 113.7 34 114.4 35 116.7 36 117.7 37 118.4 38 118.9 39 119.2 40 119.4 41 119.7<---MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE REACHED HERE 42 119.6 43 119.2 44 119.3 45 119.1 46 119.4 47 119.3 48 119.3 49 119.3 50 119.3 51 119.3 52 119.3 53 119.3 54 119.3 55 119.3 56 119.3 57 119.3 58 119.3 59 119.3 60 119.3<------VACUUM VERY STEADY AT 26.0 IN HG 61 119.3<------ARC POWER TURNED OFF 62 110 63 91.2 64 73.8 65 60.6 66 50.8 67 43.7 68 38.2 69 33.9 70 30.7<-------END OF RUN --part0_893821545_boundary Content-ID: 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vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 20:59:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09803; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:55:02 -0700 (PDT) From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:52:03 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_893821923_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"UVlTw.0.4P2.IIgHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18017 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_893821923_boundary Content-ID: <0_893821923 inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Missed sending the file h2wk426.wk4 do to stupidity. I was still active in Lotus. Here it is. 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AQAEAgAAAAXKEAAAuwIAAAEEAAEAGAAAABUAAAAEAQAAAAWBFAAADQAAAAEFAAEAFwAAABUA AAAFfRQAAAQAAAABBgABAAcAAQAIAAEABAIAAAALAQAAAAIJAAEACAABAAWFEwAAEgAAAAIK AAEACAABAAWXEwAAEgAAAAILAAEACAABAAWpEwAADgAAAAIMAAEACAABAAW3EwAADgAAAAIN AAEACAABAAXFEwAACAAAAAIOAAEACAABAAXNEwAABgAAAAEHAAEAGAAAABUAAAAEAQAAAAVS FAAAEgAAAAEIAAEAFwAAABUAAAAFQhQAABAAAAABCQABABgAAAAVAAAABdMTAAAQAAAAAQoA AQAYAAAAFQAAAAUsFAAAFgAAAAELAAEAGAAAABUAAAAF4xMAABcAAAABDAABABgAAAAVAAAA BRAUAAAcAAAAAQ0AAQAYAAAAFQAAAAX6EwAAFgAAAAEOAAEAGAAAABUAAAAFZBQAABkAAAAY pENNpUhkctcAAAEAAgAAAKAUAAAoAgAA --part0_893821923_boundary-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 21:52:47 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17179; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3546B290.51 crmc2.univ-mrs.fr> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:31:08 -0700 From: Jean-Paul Biberian Reply-To: biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! References: <199804282319_MC2-3B55-3C20 compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"LnFvI1.0.KC4.D7hHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18018 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Yes this is a major issue. Why do we need high accuracy measurements? I went from one side of the issue to the other. I understand Jed's point of we do not care about small numbers, we want a device that produces large amounts of XSH. However, I realized that things are not always so simple. How do you get from where we are to the device that will produce excess heat? The answer I have now is that there are so many parameters involved that it is very important to find out if any modification of anyone of those parameters is improving or not the result. Basically if the error bars are too large you never know if you are ging uphill or downhill, but you need to know it. With high precision calorimetry one can feel better the land he is walking on and use better the signal coming from the experiment. I have realized that unfortunately this is a fact. At the ICCF7 conference, everybody was impressed by Dr Case, but its poor calorimetry cannot prove anything yet. I was impressed by Dr Iwamura of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries that gave a very accurate experiment showing XSH, X-rays and transmutation. Experiments have to be precise. This is the way people work in general in science. However we can always imagine and hope that someone by inspiration or luck will make a breakthrough in the field. But wher do you go from where you are? This issue is similar to the mathemtics problem of optimization of a function with many parameters. The better the data, the easier the optimization. If the actual measurements are given with a poor acuracy, the optimization will give you a broad minimum that might be far from the best optimum obtained with better data. Finally doing a good precise job is not a lot more expensive and costly than a poorly designed experiment. It takes the same amount of effort to do it good or bad, so why not aim for the best? Jean-Paul Biberian From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 22:12:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01101; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:09:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:09:17 -0700 From: John Logajan Message-Id: <199804290509.AAA27358 mirage.skypoint.com> Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control In-Reply-To: from Martin Sevior at "Apr 29, 98 11:29:25 am" To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:09:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"iITYD3.0.3H.yNhHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18019 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > The argument about the Nazi's is a classic piece of pro-gun propaganda. The > problem was not ownership of guns as much as the government having a far > larger force of enforcers (the SS and the German Army). Against them > individual families and even well organized opposition (such as the > Communists) had no chance, even with a large collection of guns. Encyclopedia Briannica -- Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (1943), resistance by Polish Jews under Nazi occupation to being deported from Warsaw and sent to the Treblinka extermination camp. The revolt began on April 19, 1943, and was quelled four weeks later, on May 16. On January 18 the Nazis entered the ghetto to assemble a shipment of Jews and were met with surprising armed resistance by the underground Jewish Combat Organization (Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa; ZOB). Street fighting went on for four days, leaving about 50 Germans--and many more Jews--dead, but affording ZOB an opportunity to seize some German arms. The Germans withdrew and stopped the deportation scheme until April 19, when SS chief Heinrich Himmler launched a special Aktion to clear the ghetto by force in honour of Hitler's birthday, April 20. Before dawn, 2,000 SS men and army troops moved into the area with tanks, rapid-fire artillery, and ammunition trailers. While most remaining Jews hid in bunkers, by prearrangement, the ZOB and a few independent bands of Jewish guerrillas, in all some 1,500 strong, opened fire with their motley weaponry --pistols, a few rifles, one machine gun, and homemade bombs--destroying a number of tanks, killing German troops, and holding off reinforcements trying to enter the ghetto. The Germans withdrew at evening. The next day the fighting resumed and casualties mounted. The Germans used gas, police dogs, and flamethrowers in an effort to rout the Jews from their bunkers, leaving the city under a pall of smoke for days. Not until May 8 did the Nazis manage to take the ZOB headquarters bunker. Total casualty figures for the uprising are uncertain, but the Germans likely lost several hundred soldiers during the 28 days that it took them to kill or deport over 56,000 Jews. [JML note: Just think what those 56,000 Jews could have done if they had more than a handful of weapons.] -- - John Logajan -- jlogajan skypoint.com -- 612-633-8928 - - 4248 Hamline Ave; Arden Hills, Minnesota (MN) 55112 USA - - WWW URL = http://www.skypoint.com/members/jlogajan - From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 22:34:09 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23564; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:32:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980428124712.009e39b0 spectre.mitre.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:29:48 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: H2 glow discharge... Resent-Message-ID: <"AHyif1.0.4m5.TjhHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18020 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Robert Eachus wrote: > Ordinary sunglasses, if not cheap junk will > completely eliminate that risk. ...all while even _further_ enhancing that Mad scientist look! - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Tue Apr 28 22:38:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05198; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:33:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3546BAD7.2B0 keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:29:59 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control References: <199804290509.AAA27358 mirage.skypoint.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hspl23.0.3H1.-khHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18021 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! Could you guys please cease this totally useless and non-list related thread on gun control?? It more properly belongs in the public newsgroups, not a subscription list that is intended to provide alternative science related information. Seems like I am having to delete most of the recent posts from vortex that have nothing whatsoever to do with vortex issues....thanks... -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 00:31:11 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03475; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:27:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Ostrowski X-Sender: jimostr victor1.mscomm.com Reply-To: Jim Ostrowski To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control In-Reply-To: <199804281822_MC2-3B4D-FCAA compuserve.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"ip2jG.0.Cs.NRjHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18022 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Suppose, for the sake of argument, we say the Constitution guarantees > unfettered ownership of weapons. The Constitutution , as amended by Article number 14 (1865) doesn't guarantee any "rights" whatsoever for "citizens" to own weapons of any kind. All rights that were up until then "guaranteed" to the "People" by the first ten amendments, were withdrawn and replaced with "priveleges" granted to "citizens" . A " Privelege " is not the same thing as a "right". The 14th amendment stipulates that Citizens are Citizens (property) OF the state and should not be equated with the "people" who delegated authority to the various Constitutional jurisdictions and legislatures. The responsibilities that go along with having rights of one sort or another was replaced with the concept of "immunities" by this very same amendment. Free People have rights and responsibilities.. Slaves have priveleges and immunities. It is also well worth noting that the bottom line of this amendment states that "The public debt" of the United States "_SHALL_NOT_BE_QUESTIONED_". So much for the First amendment where y'all thought you might have the RIGHT to question anything you wanted to ("freedom of speech"). We are ALL slaves. Get real. Get used to it. Jim Ostrowski From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 00:47:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04512; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:51:46 -0800 To: jdecker keelynet.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy Resent-Message-ID: <"O2vC-2.0.Q61.6hjHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18023 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 9:40 PM 4/28/98, Jerry W. Decker wrote: >Hi Scott! > >Thanks for that SUPERB COMPARISON of the watthour meter to a utility >meter...I've always wondered how accurate such a device would be....this >is an excellent redneck proof of overunity type claims.... > >One meter on the input side to show how much power the circuit was >actually using. > >One meter on the output side prior to the load showing how much power >the load was actually drawing... > >Best piece of useful info I've seen posted in awhile...THANKS!!!!! Yes, very useful to find a cheap instrument that works. But does it really? Cheap volt/amp meters give good results with sine wave power. The important test is when the power factor is very low and eradic. Have anything wild and wooley around to measure Scott? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 01:02:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17397; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:57:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:57:49 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:54:38 -0400 From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com> To: Vortex Mail Message-ID: <199804290357_MC2-3B50-BBF6 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"PoX4j.0.gF4.yrjHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18024 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jay said: >> In the US of today, I do not believe that we are in danger of this kind of tyranny, because of the widespread ownership of firearms. However, as it was pointed out before, the first step to tyrannical government IS the disarming of the people (Nazi Germany, Cuba, USSR, Japan of the 1930's and 40's, etc.). << Just my 2 pennorth: The UK has a tightly controlled gun ownership policy which has not yet produced a tyrannical gvt. However we also have N.Ireland where the population have taken it upon themselves to carry arms illegally and there is civil war. If our gvt had clamped down harder in the beginning on the illegal private ownership of weapons 30 years ago we might have been saved the slaughter of thousands by the so-called paramilitary thugs and the army. Just imagine what could have happened there if gun ownership had been legal! Norman From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 01:46:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21328; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:44:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3546E785.5B1D keelynet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:40:37 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jgw4M1.0.AD5.zXkHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18025 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Horace! With regard to Scott Little's post about measuring power using utility wattmeters, you make a great point, the waveform is probably the most important single factor. I remember at DeVry one of our teachers showed us a stepup transformer, don't recall the exact details, but it was something like a 10:100 turns ratio. When you put in 1 volt, you got 1000 volts on the output. That should be only 100 volts (1 X 100 = 100) and he challenged us to figure out how to do it. Afer much discussion, we couldn't see how you could get such a voltage increase with that kind of turns ratio, it SHOULD be 1000 turns on the secondary. (You know I was worked up about it!!) The next day, he explained it, saying that the fall time of a square wave could transfer energy into a circuit much faster if it didn't have a long ramp. Power must be consistently average out over time, not charging up with feeble currents, then discharging with one lightning burst. He also said if you could make a square wave that collapsed almost instantly, you could have incredible power devices, not overunity, but able to transfer large amounts of energy over many repetitive short time periods (per cycle). I think some of the free energy devices that have been 'anomalous' might have used this to fool the inventor into thinking there was POWER, where there were only many short bursts that simply averaged out, OVER TIME, to less than the power provided to the circuit. One case in point is Lee Trippetts TOD (Trippett Overunity Device)...it was purely experimental but seemed to be producing overunity. Lee had been experimenting with MOSfets and came up with a circuit which appeared to be true overunity, yet it would not power itself or any appreciable load. He shared it in a file with us at KeelyNet and those who built it also found similar anomalies. Being the practical fellow he is, Lee couldn't believe it was true overunity, based simply on the measurements and calculations, so he took it to a local college to let one of the electronics teachers examine it, he too was puzzled. Finally, Lee contacted Walter Rosenthal and drove to California to let him test it. Walter has a very pricey set of power measuring devices (about $30,000 worth last time I heard) and is a most competent and respected engineer. He found that the circuit was producing many very high voltage spikes which in a sampling multimeter gave the impression of being overunity. As our 'resident skeptic' Don Lancaster is fond of saying, you CAN'T MEASURE POWER WITH A MULTIMETER AND AN OSCOPE. It was not anywhere near UNITY and Lee immediately posted a notice to that effect, cause he's just that kind of a guy, no scams though I know some who would have run with this, starting up a company and selling all kinds of BS schemes. Thanks, Horace for bringing up that critical point!!!! -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 05:16:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01114; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:12:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:12:55 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <009201bd7367$9864a3c0$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Startling Future of Transplants (http://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/DailyNe Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:08:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD7335.497F91C0" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"JmD5R2.0.JH.6bnHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18026 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD7335.497F91C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every Body Needs Some Body Sometime. :-) Don't Forget to VOTE! http://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/DailyNews/mckenzie_head980427.html ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD7335.497F91C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Startling Future of Transplants.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Startling Future of Transplants.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/DailyNews/mckenzie_head98042= 7.html Modified=3D409B30376773BD01DA ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01BD7335.497F91C0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 05:24:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21797; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: exeter.city.ac.uk: remi owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:19:52 +0100 (BST) From: Cornwall RO X-Sender: remi exeter Reply-To: Cornwall RO To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: [on topic]Individ vs Collec, G control etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"soYf32.0.RK5.VjnHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18027 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: You could title this email:- The Decline of Societies Individual versus Collective Rights Or Why Heroes Get Broken by Society - the tyranny of little people Objectivism is more relevant than ever as Clinton and Blair talk third way nonsense whilst delivering more of our freedoms into their hands. It was in response to a thread about heroes, why we need them, the vacuous re-branding of 'Cool Britannia' and the moral vacuum of films like the Full Monty, where defeat, sleaze and compromise are held up as desirable even 'chic'. The key point is values and who dictates them. Just because little people are in the majority, they should not dictate their values to others. The ascent of mankind wasn't forged by little people. It isn't now. It never will be. The heroic character is uncompromising, logical, idealistic often isolated and reviled. It is these qualities that allow them to penetrate life's difficulties, not least science. Where others say 'no, can't be done, people won't like it', the hero goes ahead and proves it/does it. When society loses sight of a proper value system, rejects its heroes, rejects the good, it is heading for decline. Just what is it that makes people humiliate heroes? What makes them reject the beautiful? Reject Rachmaninoff and hold up Stravinsky, say? Or cluster around modern art exhibitions? See films which are blatantly perverted or anti-heroic? Or the pretentious leaping to the defence of misfits over the worthy? Where do they get their values from? To a large extent it is the state education system. We have today an education system and society concerned with an illogical conformity, compromise and destruction of character. Under such a system the finished product, the 'adult' is easily swayed by public opinion. (Ask yourself why the government is so keen on state education?) Never having been taught the value of self, their right to what is good in life, values, logic, morality, economics, and freedom they rapidly give up their rights to gurus, priests, politicians, people of dubious morals, such as criminals. They have no sanctity of self. This plasticity of character can be moulded. Witness today's youth fashion - drugs, body piercing, a fondness for mind numbing, deafening repetitive music. When asked why they damage their bodies, they never really know why, 'because everybody else is doing it'. It is even worse for the talented individual. They are pressured to normalise and be liked by everyone and become emotionally dependant on them. Think of the story of the Lion and the Mouse drummed into every kid at state school. A lion doesn't need a mouse! In this unlikely story, the mouse does the lion a small favour of removing a thorn from its paw. The mouse then has a claim on the lion's life - and most importantly the lion's guilt to control him. It doesn't stop there. The bullying of talented individuals, often already over-sensitised by the vicious mob, is becoming even more insidious. It is not enough to call a 'nerd' a sissy, but worse, much worse. What happens if the individual yields to this pressure, dumbs down, normalises? They grow up broken cynical establishment men, alcoholics, drug abusers or further morally compromised, having lost their self respect, that thing which gave them their value - their talent. So then, what of the end product of the education system, the easily swayed 'adult'. Every now and then their tortured logic but desire for life surfaces in some mass hysteria movement where they, quite rightly want to correct the World's ills. Witness the death of Princess Diana. However it is this sentimentality that is damaging and leaves society open to revolution and tyranny. Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pot knew how to keep their fingers on the populace's pulse, manipulate it, then keep their hand on the public purse, the media and the hangman's noose. It is very tempting to accept the anodyne speeches of populist politicians. Phrases such as 'feed the World', 'redistribute income, make them pay' can rapidly be distorted to 'kill the Jews', 'kill the intellectuals', 'death to enemies of the state (and hence, of the common people). This is how mobs mobilise, isolate and destroy what they perceive to be the problem, but their irrationality is ridding them of the gem that gave them everything of value in Civilisation. What Objectivists know and promote is: the legitimacy of capitalism and a free society where people's philanthropic values aren't dictated to by the state. Communism and various mystical faiths did not eradicate poverty. It was Capitalism and those bold, free, uncompromising inventors or businessmen. We believe that we can rationally solve our problems where there is freedom to do so. This is achieved by people's acquisition of wealth and freedom to dispose of it how they see fit. The planned/mixed economy smacks of protectionism for friends of people with the 'connections'; others work to subsidise these people. When they are inefficient is that fair? Is it morally correct? So you want to feed the World, you can't have your cake and eat it too. How many better people fall by the wayside as money that should be loaned or philanthropically given to them is frittered away on a clique-club? So, We say that no one has a right to anyone else's life and wealth. We promote a free economy - laissez-faire economics. We promote minimal government to protect the citizen, his property and the state that protects him. We know that logic is the only way to solve our problems and achieve happiness. We frown on religions, art, and philosophies that demean mankind and logic. We reject ideas of: Original sin - that mankind is somehow inherently evil. That this existence is one of suffering - preparation for a nirvana. That logic is futile. These beliefs have endangered civilisation since its inception and left good people to the whims of madmen. Mankind's deepest impulses for self and happiness should be harnessed in a rational, self-enlightened fashioned. Objectivism is a deeply humane philosophy and one can judge this by the rants of its detractors, secretively too eager to slip mankind into bondage. Remi. From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 06:47:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00161; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35472D59.3AF9 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:38:33 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"mB09z2.0.P2.isoHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18028 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Horace Heffner wrote: > The > important test is when the power factor is very low and eradic. Have > anything wild and wooley around to measure Scott? > Good suggestion, Horace! How about a 300 watt halogen lamp with dimmer set to chop the power down to about 150 watts? Or, a loaded variable- speed hand drill running at low speed but high torque - hard to find a nice smooth high torque load though? Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 07:01:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02603; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:59:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00b001bd7376$484d42c0$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Pd on Activated Carbon, Hydrogen-Deuterium Reactions. Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:51:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"AcInz1.0.Ze.59pHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18029 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: Using a slight modification of the Saha equation: Log ni^2/no = -5040*Vi/T + 1.5 Log T + 15.385 Log (2H)^2/H2 = -5040*Wb/T + 1.5 Log T + 15.385 or Log (CH2)^2/(H2+C)= -5040*Wb/T +1.5 LogT+15.385 will give an idea of what possibilities arise in the Pd-Carbon-Hydrogen system at 150-250 C (425-525 K) where Wb is the bond energy (ev) Bond Wb (ev) D-D 4.61 H-H 4.53 H-C 3.51 H-CH 4.38 H-CH2 4.83 H-CH3 4.55 C-C 6.30 With hundreds of meter^2/gram of catalyst, lots of interesting possibilities. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 07:00:58 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16449; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:59:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:59:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3547325A.4445 interlaced.net> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:59:54 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Startling Future of Transplants (http://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/DailyNe References: <009201bd7367$9864a3c0$598cbfa8 default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"BUdaE1.0.j04.29pHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18030 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > > Every Body Needs Some Body Sometime. :-) No, Fred, you can't have my body just because I'm a couple of years younger! This reminds me of an old "Analog SF" story called "Half a Loaf". In the story a group was exchanging heads between a child with a good head but bad body and one with a good body but a bad head. Take two kids with big problems and make one good kid and one "bad" kid. I'm stopping here while I'm still a head. :-) Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 07:12:12 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03842; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:08:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00c301bd7377$6d0b4700$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Startling Future of Transplants (http://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/DailyNe Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:02:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"ohGNU.0.xx.5HpHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18031 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Francis J. Stenger To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 8:00 AM Subject: Re: Startling Future of Transplants (http://www.abcnews.com/sections/living/DailyNe >Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >> >> Every Body Needs Some Body Sometime. :-) > >No, Fred, you can't have my body just because I'm a couple of years >younger! >This reminds me of an old "Analog SF" story called "Half a Loaf". >In the story a group was exchanging heads between a child with a good >head but bad body and one with a good body but a bad head. Take >two kids with big problems and make one good kid and one "bad" kid. >I'm stopping here while I'm still a head. :-) Aarrgh! Then there's "when a body meets a body coming through the wry"? :-) Regards, Frederick > >Frank Stenger > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 07:34:41 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22144; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:30:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:30:46 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <35473977.4903F84 css.mot.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:30:15 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: [WAY OFF TOPIC] Gun control References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"-LluA.0.rP5.LcpHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18032 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Martin Sevior wrote: > This is clearly not correct. He didn't need gun control to keep his citizens > under his thumb. History is very interesting reading and readily available to anyone with a library card or a computer. It amazes me that more people don't take the time. You can't know where you are going if you don't know where you've been; science, religion, politics, etc. All the *nasty* topics that very few can agree on..... 8^) > The argument about the Nazi's is a classic piece of pro-gun propaganda. Actually I think of it as a good example of how a seemingly good idea can go horribly wrong. Only now that we can look at it in hindsight are we able to see the error in judgement and the consequence of apathy. It is a unique perspective. > So the question you Americans have to ask yourself is: what price are you > prepared to pay for your individual right to own high-powered weapons? Odd question, as the ablity to even have this discussion is the direct result of securing that right and others like it. When a drunk driver kills a child, is the car at fault? Involved, but not the root cause. The driver is held responsible. Why is this not true now? This popular argument is based on a faulty premise and will never solve the underlying problem. Education is the only solution for lasting change. > Do you feel safer at night with a weapon next your bed, knowing that if there > is a burgular he may also be armed? What stops the theif, the electric fence? or the risk of personal injury? I suppose the philosophy of deterence is subjective, but the results are not. If you are interested, read up on violent crime statistics in recent years for states in the US that now permit their residents to *carry* firearms. Sheep with teeth are not so attractive to wolves, and generally motivate them to rethink their activities or move on to where the pickings are easier. Contrary to sensationalized predictions of wild west shoot-outs, violent crimes have significantly decreased. Does it really work? Maybe. The numbers describe the influence of something. John E. Steck ------------------------------------o}{: Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 08:16:16 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11816; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980429101208.00bc6964 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:12:08 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! In-Reply-To: <199804282319_MC2-3B55-3C20 compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"_BBPn1.0.Ru2.lEqHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18033 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 23:15 4/28/98 -0400, Jed wrote: >I think it is >absolutely essential that you use the same material Case does, if at all >possible. I would not think of doing anything else. I am merely trying what's on hand while waiting for the real stuff to arrive. If it works, great. If not, I've established a baseline, nothing more. >I see no point in extreme instrument accuracy.... We're not as far apart as you might think, Jed. Despite all my efforts, I achieve only a RELIABLE 1-2% accuracy in my calorimetry. That means my detection limit for excess heat is around 3-6% (using the standard definition of detection limit as 3 standard deviations). In my opinion, that's about the minimum performance acceptable for investigating possibly o-u systems. I think it's quite likely that the first o-u system I ever get my hands on will be barely o-u and I want a decent chance of catching it. If my calorimetry was only 10% accurate, I'd have to wait for a device that's at least 30% o-u to be really sure of the excess heat...:( I stress RELIABLE above because of the prevalent and insidious systematic errors that tend to plague calorimetry. One good thing the NHE did was to prove that at least some kinds of isoperibolic calorimetry can produce false positive excess heat signals. Ed Storms has also observed this problem in his new dual-method calorimeter. Also, I wholeheartedly support the idea of tailoring the calorimetry to the expected effect. If the Perkins-Pope device is supposed to be 50% o-u then a 10% accuracy is quite adequate...at least to confirm their claims. Good luck with your measurements. Free advice: Estimate the expected heat-losses in your water-flow calorimetry using the known thermal conductivity of the insulation and the observed delta-T across the walls of the wooden box. If the joule-heater calibration does not show a heat recovery that matches your estimated losses pretty closely....STOP...and figure out why. Don't sweep a big pile of unknown errors under the rug with a large fudge factor...they just might sneak out and bite you when you're running the real tests. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 08:41:02 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA32693; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:38:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:38:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:34:13 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Biberian's comments on accuracy Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804291136_MC2-3B5F-D3DF compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"zD85N2.0.g-7.ubqHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18034 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex; >INTERNET:biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr Jean-Paul Biberian, the funniest man in cold fusion, wrote: Yes this is a major issue. Why do we need high accuracy measurements? Actually, I was talking about precision, not accuracy. I agree we need accuracy. I went from one side of the issue to the other. I understand Jed's point of we do not care about small numbers, we want a device that produces large amounts of XSH. It seems to me, Jean-Paul, you are still on my side. At ICCF7 you described two experiments at the Commissariat a L'Energie Atomique. They were good, but not notably precise. The calorimetry is standard. You make no special efforts to the sort of thing Scott Little described: "'active insulation' to keep the delta-T across the insulated enclosure walls nominally equal to zero." When you described the boil-off experiments at ICCF6 you said the results might be off by a large margin but it does not matter. You were right. Furthermore, as I have often emphasized, an experiment should be clearly biased to the negative, ensuring that a positive result is really positive. When you test the SMOT roll-away, be sure you are working uphill against a slight gradient. What you think is level may be slightly downhill, which will fool you. In a flow calorimeter the cooling fluid should always be held well above ambient temperature so that losses between the inlet thermocouples and the cell show up as "excess cold." Bockris says make the cell 30 deg C, 10 degrees above ambient. In my opinion, Scott Little and the other members of the High Precision School do not apply this basic technique often enough. A flow calorimeter cell held above ambient might have a giant 5 or 10% heat loss. I would feel more comfortable with this than with "active insulation," which I fear might be too active. It might add 50 mW accidentally. The Second Law never breaks, drifts, turns off, or fluctuates. The answer I have now is that there are so many parameters involved that it is very important to find out if any modification of anyone of those parameters is improving or not the result. Basically if the error bars are too large you never know if you are going uphill or downhill, but you need to know it. I am not in favor of gratuitous inaccuracy or imprecision. You can be sure you are going uphill (literally!) by tilting your benchtop -- biasing it -- as we did with SMOT. Reducing the error bars is not the only technique, and not necessarily the best. But if this is your problem, it seems to me it would be easier to increase the size of the cathode and get a bigger reaction. For example, your CETI replication has a 1 ml cathode and it is producing 200 to 400 mW of excess heat (if I read my photo of your graph correctly). Why not use a 10 ml cathode, or 50 ml? A 50 ml cathode would fit into a laboratory bench cell. I have realized that unfortunately this is a fact. At the ICCF7 conference, everybody was impressed by Dr Case, but its poor calorimetry cannot prove anything yet. His calorimetry is better than people realize. He did not describe it well. I discussed it with him in detail. If his results are independently confirmed it will be a triumph of old-fashioned, low-precision science. He uses the techniques I describe. He depends upon first principles, a large bias, and he boosts the reaction by adding another 50 grams of catalyst. The self heating test we intend to try with the Case device and the Pons and Fleischmann heat-after-death results are good examples of what I mean. These experiments have zero precision, yet they are 100% convincing. Any significant signal indicates a positive result. These are the cleanest experiments you can devise. When you skillfully redesign an experiment to reduce the need for instrument precision, and reduce the number of instruments required, you can make your results more convincing. Good technique is better than good instruments. The best technique eliminates all instruments, making the reaction apparent to the naked eye and the sense of touch. (Strictly speaking, the eye and the sense of touch and smell *are* instruments. They are superb instruments, woefully underused by today's scientists. During the experiments at Bell Lab when the transistor was invented, a chemist who smelled parts per million of sulphur made a huge contribution.) I was impressed by Dr Iwamura of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries that gave a very accurate experiment showing XSH, X-rays and transmutation. A perfect example! Iwamura's calorimetry is lousy. He sees 2 watts excess (5% of input) which he measures at only 3 sigma. Anyone could build a better calorimeter than that. However, as I pointed out, he must use a thin Teflon cell in order to measure x-rays. He is trading off calorimetric accuracy for nuclear evidence. Experiments have to be precise. This is the way people work in general in science. No, it isn't, actually. Not traditionally. The standards of precision people like Faraday used would be unacceptable in a high school experiment today. But Faraday did good work. When I was in college, digital thermocouples had recently been invented. A group of medical students I knew measured laboratory rat body temperatures to 4 decimal places. I think that was with a rectal thermometer, and my feeling was if those poor rats farted the last 2 digits would change wildly. A biology professor and I had a good laugh about it. These people were wasting their time filling lab notebooks with handwritten columns of meaningless digits. It is worse today with computers, which automatically fill disks with meaningless digits. I think modern scientists confuse high precision with good science. They are not the only ones who confuse means and ends: programmers think video pizzaz equals good programming. Experiments have to be accurate. They have to have a high S/N ratio. They have to be convincing. They do not necessarily have to be precise. To enhance precision beyond normal levels you must take steps that reduce credibility. People cannot measure the output from large machinery or large reactions with precision. The output from factory boilers and large machinery performance is often measured to within 10% at best. A Georgia Tech professor told me that carpet mill drying equipment efficiency is measured to within 20% on a good day. You have to scale the equipment down to the lab bench top if you want to measure it with more precision. Despite the problems, Harry Taplin's Augmented Combustion data from factory boilers is convincing. The only question is: Why does the lithium enhance the reaction? Is it merely cleaning the boiler, or is it contributing to the reaction? That can only be answered with scaled down experiments. But the reality of the improved performance he observes cannot be disputed. Finally doing a good precise job is not a lot more expensive and costly than a poorly designed experiment. It takes the same amount of effort to do it good or bad, so why not aim for the best? Mais oui! As I said, I am not in favor of gratuitous inaccuracy. My thesis is more subtle and complicated than that. It is more subtle than people like Scott Little and Mitch Swartz give me credit for. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 09:06:53 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04680; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:01:18 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <00e801bd7387$83673440$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:57:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"lJbf_2.0._81.CxqHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18036 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Scott Little To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! >At 23:15 4/28/98 -0400, Jed wrote: > >>I think it is >>absolutely essential that you use the same material Case does, if at all >>possible. BY ALL MEANS. Then watch as the Pd splits the 4.53 ev H2-D2 Bond and these Form Two 3.51 ev H-C Bonds releasing 7.0-4.53 = 2.49 ev of thermal energy as the carbon "burns" the H2-D2 for weeks. Eventually you will end up with CxHy tied up in the Pd-Carbon "catalyst" and Megajoules of "O/U Heat". :-) Regards, Frederick > >I would not think of doing anything else. I am merely trying what's on >hand while waiting for the real stuff to arrive. If it works, great. If >not, I've established a baseline, nothing more. > >>I see no point in extreme instrument accuracy.... > >We're not as far apart as you might think, Jed. Despite all my efforts, I >achieve only a RELIABLE 1-2% accuracy in my calorimetry. That means my >detection limit for excess heat is around 3-6% (using the standard >definition of detection limit as 3 standard deviations). In my opinion, >that's about the minimum performance acceptable for investigating possibly >o-u systems. I think it's quite likely that the first o-u system I ever >get my hands on will be barely o-u and I want a decent chance of catching >it. If my calorimetry was only 10% accurate, I'd have to wait for a device >that's at least 30% o-u to be really sure of the excess heat...:( > >I stress RELIABLE above because of the prevalent and insidious systematic >errors that tend to plague calorimetry. One good thing the NHE did was to >prove that at least some kinds of isoperibolic calorimetry can produce >false positive excess heat signals. Ed Storms has also observed this >problem in his new dual-method calorimeter. > >Also, I wholeheartedly support the idea of tailoring the calorimetry to the >expected effect. If the Perkins-Pope device is supposed to be 50% o-u then >a 10% accuracy is quite adequate...at least to confirm their claims. Good >luck with your measurements. > >Free advice: Estimate the expected heat-losses in your water-flow >calorimetry using the known thermal conductivity of the insulation and the >observed delta-T across the walls of the wooden box. If the joule-heater >calibration does not show a heat recovery that matches your estimated >losses pretty closely....STOP...and figure out why. Don't sweep a big pile >of unknown errors under the rug with a large fudge factor...they just might >sneak out and bite you when you're running the real tests. > > > >Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little >Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA >512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 09:08:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18194; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000201bd7387$8612cc40$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> From: "Craig Haynie" To: Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:55:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"sqQRV3.0.CS4.RxqHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18035 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Little writes: >We're not as far apart as you might think, Jed. Despite all my efforts, I >achieve only a RELIABLE 1-2% accuracy in my calorimetry. That means my >detection limit for excess heat is around 3-6% (using the standard >definition of detection limit as 3 standard deviations). In my opinion, >that's about the minimum performance acceptable for investigating possibly >o-u systems. I think it's quite likely that the first o-u system I ever >get my hands on will be barely o-u and I want a decent chance of catching >it. If my calorimetry was only 10% accurate, I'd have to wait for a device >that's at least 30% o-u to be really sure of the excess heat...:( Is this correct math? One Sigma being equal to the accuracy assessment. One Sigma should be the curve within which 68% of all measurements fall. Two Sigma should be somewhere near 92%. Three Sigma is 99.72%. How do you know that a calorimetry that is defined to be 10% accurate is using the One Sigma curve to define it. It seems more reasonable to define the accuracy at the Three Sigma curve. So the question is, are you sure? Craig Haynie (Houston) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 09:20:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00648; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:14:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:14:18 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08C6 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Deyo Experiment-tests confirmed Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:13:47 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"CYaJB.0.2A.P7rHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18037 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Kyle How you run the leads which run the current to your test wire have to be taken into account for this type of experiment. The complete electric circuit generates magnetic fields, which interact with the earth's magnetic field. Hank > ---------- > From: Kyle R. Mcallister[SMTP:stk sunherald.infi.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 6:10 PM > To: 'freenrg-l eskimo.com' > Cc: 'vortex-l eskimo.com' > Subject: Deyo Experiment-tests confirmed > > Hello all: > > I have tested the Deyo setup with a piece of 18AWG wire strung between > two wood beams, and powered by a car battery. When the voltage was > positive to my left (I was facing the wire), the wire moved away from > me. When negative to my left, it moved toward me. I noted last night > that the magnetic fields surround the wire with a certain spin > direction. The Rambaut spinning ball experiment may indicate that > there is some interaction between the spin of the magnetic field and > the experimental setup. Also, Deyo notes that when small pieces of > paper are attached to a thinner wire, the pieces of paper twist in one > direction around the wire. I must gain more info on this effect, and > plan to continue my experiments. Note that this twist of the paper > may indicate a magnetic spin interaction also. > > THIS IS ONLY A THEORY > > Kyle Randall Mcallister > Email: stk sunherald.infi.net > Phone: 228-875-0629 > Fax: 228-872-5837 > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 10:11:37 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08902; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:06:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:06:58 -0700 Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08C7 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Beware of wrong materials!!! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:05:47 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Resent-Message-ID: <"4DMC32.0.pA2.jurHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18038 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed You are doing statistics here. You can use the "t-test" to evaluate your experiment. The "t-statistic" is the signal-to-noise ratio. The number of data samples-1 is the n parameter. Check with a friendly local statistican, or I'll give you more details. You can design your experiment to test the null hypothesis (nothing hqppened) at any desired level of certainty by taking more data samples. Your intuition is correct, the higher the signal-to-noise ratio, the better. The "t-test" will tell you what you are betting on(literally). Hank Scudder, CQE, PhD in EE (Information Theory)(to give you some formal credentials) > ---------- > From: Jed Rothwell[SMTP:72240.1256 compuserve.com] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 8:15 PM > To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com > Subject: Beware of wrong materials!!! > > To: Vortex > > In a message about a meter Scott Little jokes: > > Jed, please skip this message. It's high-accuracy stuff.... > > And in the next message I think he makes a low-accuracy mistake: > > I spoke with Dr. Case this morning and got all the picky details > of his > preferred protocol. He also gave me the catalog number, G-75E, > of the > Pd-on-carbon catalyst from United Catalysts that has worked best > in his > experiments. I am trying to get some from them now. > > Meanwhile, we already have some 1% Pd on carbon catalyst on hand > and Dr. > Case indicated that it would probably suffice to see the effect. > > STOP RIGHT THERE! Case is a laid back guy who spent eight years > looking for > the right material. When he "indicates" it will "probably work" I > expect he > means you should spend the next six months looking for the performance > "sweet > spot" and you might get this untested catalyst to work. I think it is > absolutely essential that you use the same material Case does, if at > all > possible. > > We all have our weaknesses. I see no point in extreme instrument > accuracy; > Scott Little sometimes dispenses with material accuracy. I slop > together a > calorimeter and then try to use PRECISELY the right materials. Scott > slaves to > make an ultra accurate calorimeter and then he slaps any old material > into it. > On balance, I think my approach is more fruitful. Good material shows > high > sigma excess heat even in relatively crude calorimeters. Bad material > never > shows excess in any calorimeter, even one that can detect microwatts. > Many > experienced scientists including A. Takahashi, Storms, Cravens and > Mizuno > worked with crude equipment in the first phase of their experiments -- > Mizuno > built his first CF calorimeter in a few hours -- but they always paid > close > attention to materials. They devote weeks to preparing and testing > materials. > Materials are the key to cold fusion. > > I should add that Mizuno took eight months to build his second CF > calorimeter. > > This long running dispute between Scott Little and I has often been > played out > between other workers in this field. Many fine scientists, like > Fleischmann, > believe in ultra precise calorimetry. Other excellent scientists share > my > point of view. I think Little and Fleischmann should stop and ask > themselves > *why*. What scientific purpose do the extra digits of precision serve? > Would > they be required in other areas of science, to measure heat at these > levels? > Is this pursuit of extraordinary high precision normal, logical, or a > traditional part of science? Is it elegant or informative; does it > address > vital questions about cold fusion? People in favor of high precision, > especially Mitch Swartz, insist that we must reduce noise to improve > the S/N > ratio. I find this illogical. There are two way to improve this ratio: > 1. > Reduce the noise; 2. Boost the signal. Noise is already close to zero > in most > calorimeters. Efforts to reduce it more will produce diminishing > returns. > Heroic measures will be required: more gadgets, more compensation > heaters, > more stirrers, more layers, more that will go wrong, or confuse the > observers > and make people suspect that you are accidentally adding heat with > your add-on > equipment. Noise is near zero but signal can be increased > indefinitely. A cold > fusion reaction might produce 1 watt, or a megawatt, or a gigawatt. > Therefore > it is logical to budget most of your effort to increasing the signal > rather > than reducing noise. Little and Fleischmann say we must capture tiny > indications of a CF reaction, but they have not said why, or what > purpose it > might serve, or how this will contribute the scientific understanding. > They > say it will help compel belief in the field, but experience has shown > that is > wrong. Fleischmann demonstrated to my satisfaction that the NHE > experiments > produced a tiny excess. I do not see how else you can explain the > relaxation > curves. (Even I can follow that level of mathematics!) But he will > never > persuade the NHE scientists. They have gone on record in the Nikkei > Shimbun > and here on Vortex with statements that Fleischmann's calorimetry > stinks and > his errors are "large enough to drive a truck through." > > I say that people should spend less time tweaking their instruments > and more > time practicing the techniques described by Storms to increase the > chances of > a reaction and to boost a weak reaction. I say that is ESSENTIAL you > use the > right materials. Don't even *think* about doing the experiment until > you are > sure you have the correct materials and detailed instructions. I would > spend a > few days with Case. I would watch his every move, and make a video of > him as > he performs the experiment before attempting to replicate. The man has > been > working on this experiment for 8 years, and working with catalysts for > decades. I am sure he knows a great deal about dealing with them that > Scott > Little does not know. I expect there are dozens of ways to botch this > experiment. There is art and hidden skill in every task, even baiting > a > fishhook. That is why Japanese apprentice cooks spend months > practicing > trivial tasks like cutting up vegetables. > > I believe I have made a compelling case for my point of view. I do not > mind > jokes about "Jed, please skip this message. It's high-accuracy . . ." > but if > this is a serious debate then after we have a good chuckle, Scott > Little > should explain why he disagrees with me, and why he thinks it is > better to > pursue extraordinary levels of precision and accuracy, far above those > that > would be justified in a project to measure normal chemical excess > heat. He > should write a formal article in Infinite Energy. As Chris Tinsley > used to > say, we do not want "extraordinary proof" we want ordinary, standard, > off-the-shelf, boring, textbook proof. > > - Jed > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 11:06:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05744; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <51894749C42BD111AACB00805F191B5C8F08C9 xch-cpc-02> From: "Scudder, Henry J" To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: watthour meter accuracy Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:59:31 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Resent-Message-ID: <"JmN6d1.0.gP1.6isHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18039 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Scott Try a Bad Boy type of battery charger, a full-wave bridge rectifier only (no capacitors), controlled by a variac, charging an automobile battery ( or a string of them if you have an electric vehicle around, but one will do)( The name comes from people using one, without a variac, connected directly to the house wiring, to charge an Electric Vehicle with about a 120 volt battery string). Set the variac so the peak voltage of the input AC is higher then the battery voltage. Monitor the current flow with a small resistor in series with the battery. Look at the current waveform on a scope. You will see a short duty-cycle pulsed waveform with a rep-rate of 120Hz. The voltage waveform will be a full-wave rectified sinewave, minus the diode drops and battery voltage. Then hook up your good wattmeter, and your utility wattmeter, and see how they behave on this low duty-cycle pulsed waveform. I am quite interested in your result, as I have an Electric Zebra, and a Bad-Boy charger with a variac. Hank > ---------- > From: hheffner corecom.net[SMTP:hheffner@corecom.net] > Reply To: vortex-l eskimo.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 12:51 AM > To: jdecker keelynet.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: watthour meter accuracy > > At 9:40 PM 4/28/98, Jerry W. Decker wrote: > >Hi Scott! > > > >Thanks for that SUPERB COMPARISON of the watthour meter to a utility > >meter...I've always wondered how accurate such a device would > be....this > >is an excellent redneck proof of overunity type claims.... > > > >One meter on the input side to show how much power the circuit was > >actually using. > > > >One meter on the output side prior to the load showing how much power > >the load was actually drawing... > > > >Best piece of useful info I've seen posted in awhile...THANKS!!!!! > > > Yes, very useful to find a cheap instrument that works. But does it > really? Cheap volt/amp meters give good results with sine wave power. > The > important test is when the power factor is very low and eradic. Have > anything wild and wooley around to measure Scott? > > Regards, > > Horace Heffner > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 11:57:55 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13604; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:53:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:56 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd73a0$94a86f30$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"7qgZ21.0.UK3.mStHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18040 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Vince, Here are some thoughts on your drive configuration: - The flyback transformer you are using to drive the plasma tube is probably far from optimum to maximize power to the tube. Since the primary excitation voltage during flyback in the TV application is probably in the range of 500 to 1,500 volts and the secondary output is around 20,000 volts, the turns ratio would be about 20 to 1. In your application a 5 to 1 ratio would provide peak voltages (1.4 x 185VRMS x 5) of about 1250V, probably more than sufficient to produce breakdown. The available current would then be about 4 times as high. Since the on voltage is relatively constant in a given tube, the power input would also be 4 times as high. - You could either reduce the secondary turns or wind a new primary with more turns. If the tube power gets too high at the setting for initial ignition, a series resistor could be added, providing a point to measure tube current. - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 12:48:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12776; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:45:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:45:18 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:52:40 -0800 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"s-aT_.0.P73.CDuHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18041 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 6:16 PM 4/26/98, Jed Rothwell wrote: [snip] > ... Case appears to have developed a 100% reproducible process[snip] >... Case took a cell that had run for weeks >to Oak Ridge. They found 100 ppm helium in the used gas, and no significant >helium in the unused gas or catalyst material. [snip] I wrote: "Enthalpy of formation of CH4 is -74.4 kJ/mol. For each 12.011 grams of carbon in Case's catalyst 74.4 kJ is released upon the formation of CH4. How can such a study be done without accounting for the reaction energy? D2 would be slightly different, but not different to Case's degree of accuracy (ignoring 5 deg. C differences.) He does say D2 is much warmer. Case uses 50 to 100 g of catalyst per cell. His catalyst is almost entirely carbon. This could mean up to about 600 kJ chemical energy released per cell. At 6 kJ per gram of catalyst Case should be able to sustain that 0.1 W/g output on a purely chemical basis for 60,000 seconds, over 16 hours. At least it won't take long to go "beyond chemical."" At 9:57 AM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >BY ALL MEANS. Then watch as the Pd splits the >4.53 ev H2-D2 Bond and these Form Two 3.51 ev H-C Bonds releasing 7.0-4.53 >= 2.49 ev of thermal energy as the carbon "burns" the H2-D2 >for weeks. Eventually you will end up with CxHy >tied up in the Pd-Carbon "catalyst" and Megajoules of "O/U Heat". :-) > >Regards, Frederick Fred, Even if you could get the process to combine C and H at 60 kJ/g of carbon, a good feat, you could still not burn the 100 g of carbon at the specified rate of 0.1 W/g for more than 7 days, and you still have not accounted for the Helium generated. If Case has cells with 100 g of carbon producing 0.1 W/g output for weeks, as implied by Jed, and producing helium, he has something "beyond chemical." What is clearly needed, I think we all agree, is replication. Contrary to Dick Blue's point of view, the lack of theory to account for performance does not discount the performance. Fortunately, the lack of theory to account for performance is not an impediment to either patenting or manufacturing and marketing. All that matters to the latter is the performance and cost. Unfortunately, cost is still a problem, but ascertainment of the performance should be quick due to the high degree of cooperation from Case. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 13:40:00 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25224; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:36:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:36:33 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <014301bd73ad$d7066960$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:31:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"m06mM.0.z96.FzuHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18042 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: Frederick J. Sparber ; vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! > >At 6:16 PM 4/26/98, Jed Rothwell wrote: >[snip] >> ... Case appears to have developed a 100% reproducible process[snip] >>... Case took a cell that had run for weeks >>to Oak Ridge. They found 100 ppm helium in the used gas, and no significant >>helium in the unused gas or catalyst material. >[snip] > >I wrote: > >"Enthalpy of formation of CH4 is -74.4 kJ/mol. For each 12.011 grams of >carbon in Case's catalyst 74.4 kJ is released upon the formation of CH4. >How can such a study be done without accounting for the reaction energy? > >D2 would be slightly different, but not different to Case's degree of >accuracy (ignoring 5 deg. C differences.) He does say D2 is much warmer. > >Case uses 50 to 100 g of catalyst per cell. His catalyst is almost >entirely carbon. This could mean up to about 600 kJ chemical energy >released per cell. The enthalpy of formation for 2 H2 + C = CH4 IS 12,000 Cal/gram or 50,250 joule/gram. At 50-100 grams carbon/cell at 0.1 watts this could mean 2,093,350 to 4,187,000 seconds or 24 to 48 DAYS of "O/U" heat output. :-) FJSp > >At 6 kJ per gram of catalyst Case should be able to sustain that 0.1 W/g >output on a purely chemical basis for 60,000 seconds, over 16 hours. At >least it won't take long to go "beyond chemical."" > >At 9:57 AM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >>BY ALL MEANS. Then watch as the Pd splits the >>4.53 ev H2-D2 Bond and these Form Two 3.51 ev H-C Bonds releasing 7.0-4.53 >>= 2.49 ev of thermal energy as the carbon "burns" the H2-D2 >>for weeks. Eventually you will end up with CxHy >>tied up in the Pd-Carbon "catalyst" and Megajoules of "O/U Heat". :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > >Fred, > >Even if you could get the process to combine C and H at 60 kJ/g of carbon, >a good feat, you could still not burn the 100 g of carbon at the specified >rate of 0.1 W/g for more than 7 days, and you still have not accounted for >the Helium generated. If Case has cells with 100 g of carbon producing 0.1 >W/g output for weeks, as implied by Jed, and producing helium, he has >something "beyond chemical." What is clearly needed, I think we all agree, >is replication. > >Contrary to Dick Blue's point of view, the lack of theory to account for >performance does not discount the performance. Fortunately, the lack of >theory to account for performance is not an impediment to either patenting >or manufacturing and marketing. All that matters to the latter is the >performance and cost. Unfortunately, cost is still a problem, but >ascertainment of the performance should be quick due to the high degree of >cooperation from Case. > > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 14:36:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06736; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:32:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:32:57 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980429173534.00c48aa0 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:35:34 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Cc: In-Reply-To: <01bd72f8$d1b0c240$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"9FEPY2.0.5f1.8ovHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18043 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince asked: >>Should I insert a say, 1 ohm resistor in the primary feed and measure >>voltage drop across it? Would this help with computing input power? I say again AC arcs and DC arcs are very different creatures. For an AC arc, the best way to measure current is with a current sensing coil. You can use an Amprobe style meter, or wind a couple turns of wire around a steel core and thread a lead to the arc through it. I've used lots of different probes to try to get "real" voltage measurements across an AC arc, and never really succeeded. Yes the average voltage is a few hundred volts, but those several kilovolt noise spikes in both directions are not noise in one sense--they are real. That does not happen with DC arcs, except during ignition. But with an AC arc you have an ignition every half cycle, and the ringing in voltage at the start of each half cycle is real, may exceed the average voltage across the arc, and correlates poorly with the actual current. That is why I recommend measuring input power to your power supply, and doing it with a meter that does a good job on power factor. (The type of meter that has been discussed here is not terrible for this purpose, but if the swing in power factor is large, your measurements may be inaccurate.) Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 14:38:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07647; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:36:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:31:12 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Random thoughts about systematic errors Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804291735_MC2-3B61-6C1C compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"-K_SY2.0.It1.1rvHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18044 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Scott Little writes: We're not as far apart as you might think, Jed. Despite all my efforts, I achieve only a RELIABLE 1-2% accuracy in my calorimetry. That is remarkable for such low-power calorimetry. This means my detection limit for excess heat is around 3-6% (using the standard definition of detection limit as 3 standard deviations). In my opinion, that's about the minimum performance acceptable for investigating possibly o-u systems. I think it's quite likely that the first o-u system I ever get my hands on will be barely o-u . . . Why would you get your hands on such a thing? Why bother? Many devices reportedly produce much more than that, so why bother with the marginal, low power ones? If the gadget does not produce massive o-u nobody will believe your results. People do not believe McKubre when he reports 20%. They surely will not believe you! He has more credibility than you do. If my calorimetry was only 10% accurate, I'd have to wait for a device that's at least 30% o-u to be really sure of the excess heat...:( If your goal is to convince other people you should wait for 50%+ at 10 watts or better. I stress RELIABLE above because of the prevalent and insidious systematic errors that tend to plague calorimetry. Hmm . . . What systematic errors? The errors in calorimetry do not seem any worse than those in CF spectroscopy, neutron detection, or biology, or other areas of science and technology I have studied. One good thing the NHE did was to prove that at least some kinds of isoperibolic calorimetry can produce false positive excess heat signals. Ed Storms has also observed this problem in his new dual-method calorimeter. Let us please specify that these errors occur *in the low power domain*. As far as I know, the errors discovered by the NHE and Storms only occur at low power, which I define as below 600 mW (see Miles). I believe Storms and the NHE may have found different problems. I am not sure what the NHE came up with. I have Ed's latest paper. He describes the thermal gradient and a new problem: "a stagnant layer of fluid at the cell wall" which has "variable thermal conductivity depending on the amount of fluid convention" -- but I think he means "convection." To overcome both problems I recommend measuring the temperature on the outside of the cell wall in a spot below the waterline, per Miles. Storms says "higher currents or stirring rates will only influence the results by changing the thermal conductivity of the wall." I think that should be "of the fluid at the wall;" nothing can change the wall itself, which is why Miles measures outside it. If the convection of the water changes, heat might build up inside the water around the cathode, which, when measured outside the cell wall would look like a slight transient reduction (apparent excess cold) but it would soon catch up, and then when you turn off the cell it would take a little longer to cool down. I think. Clearly I need to talk to Ed about this . . . Miles described other low power isoperibolic errors, in papers everyone should read. Some of these problems are applicable to flow calorimeters too, like heat lost from the top of the cell. Calorimetry above 1 watt is much easier. I think it starts to get difficult again above 10 KW. It becomes unwieldy. As Ben Bush showed at ICCF7, low power Seebeck calorimetry is easier and more reliable than isoperibolic or flow calorimetry. I have heard good things about these electronic calorimeters from other people over the years. They are recommended for gas calorimetry, boiling cells, and high temperature calorimetry as well as low power. If researchers feel they must investigate phenomena in this power domain, I recommend they invest in a $6000 Seebeck Envelope Calorimeter. The brochure says it holds a 6 x 6 x 6 inch sample, and the calibration constant is 0.366 watts per millivolt of output. Why anyone feels an urge to investigate low power phenomena is beyond me . . . Bush did it because his NHE cathodes produce only milliwatts of heat, and he wanted to measure the helium. The NHE itself saw no heat because they used isoperibolic calorimeters attached to extraordinarily noisy instruments. As Fleischmann showed during his ICCF7 poster session, most of the NHE data was incredibly noisy. They once let him see less noisy data but they refused to give him copies, despite repeated requests over the years. He showed me side by side samples of his own data versus the NHE stuff. Despite the noise he was able to extract proof that the NHE cells do not "relax" after a calibration pulse. The NHE responded to his critique by eliminating calibration pulses and denying they ever had any cleaner data. Their behavior seems a little, uh, suspicious. No wonder Fleischmann believes in conspiracies. My guess is that bureaucrats are fed up with non-reproducible experiments and they are looking for an excuse to quit. But, I digress . . . Free advice: Estimate the expected heat-losses in your water-flow calorimetry using the known thermal conductivity of the insulation and the observed delta-T across the walls of the wooden box. If the joule-heater calibration does not show a heat recovery that matches your estimated losses pretty closely....STOP...and figure out why. That's good advice. Frankly, I would be astounded it the numbers do not agree with the manufacturer's specs to within 10%. I expect insulation does not work quite as well as they claim. I am not sure how to interpret the insulation manufacturers "R" rating number, but someone out there knows, and Gene will publish a comprehensive description. If there is a large discrepancy I would suspect wet insulation. The other test our calorimetry must pass is obvious. The water flow results have to agree with air flow results, to within about 10% . . . I guess. I hope they are closer than that. Scott discussed the different readings from different types of AC meters, which can diverge as much as 4% with a 71 watt load. With the Kinetic Furnace, the motor is a Reliance Electric 6 HP (4 KW) motor which I believe is well matched to the load. I hope it is well matched! Therefore, I expect our Amprobe DM-II meter will work correctly to the rated specifications, with <1% error I think it was. Input power is usually the easiest parameter to measure. With a device like a thin wire CF cell driven at high voltages or the Cincinnati Group tile melting experiment power can be difficult to measure, but with an off-the-shelf AC motor it should be easy. Perkins and Pope used to use a revolving watthour meter. I showed a photo of that at ICCF7. We might get one too, for backup. They are cheap. I might find a used one for free. Two hundred houses in my neighborhood in Atlanta are scheduled to be torn down because of tornado damage. One other note about Seebeck calorimeters. On April 15 I wrote: A Seebeck calorimeter had hundreds of TC's, so it captures and converts a larger percent of the heat. Droege's calorimeter has a single large thermoelectric chip. The problem is the performance curve for the chip may not be linear or consistent over time. It has to be calibrated carefully. Droege uses a Peltier device, designed for use in a refrigerator with no moving parts. In his lecture about Seebeck calorimeters, Bush said the same thing I did: a Peltier device is not suitable for calorimetry because it drifts, the response is non linear, and at moderately high temperatures it melts! He said, "you'll never get the thing to work and your boss will fire you." That is a shame. I was hoping a $99 "Koolatron" portable fridges could be made into a large calorimeter. Bush also praised the Seebeck for having a quick response time. This makes it convenient to calibrate (it can saves weeks), and better for observing rapid changes and short heat bursts. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 14:59:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11756; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:51:02 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Sparber: 50 MJ/kg Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804291754_MC2-3B64-1675 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"8wzzu.0.bt2.p8wHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18045 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Frederick J. Sparber writes: The enthalpy of formation for 2 H2 + C = CH4 IS 12,000 Cal/gram or 50,250 joule/gram. That's ~50 MJ per kg. Gasoline produces 42 MJ/kg, and I believe it has most energy per unit of mass of any common fuel. As I recall coal (pure carbon) yields about 20 MJ/kg. You are saying this new hydrocarbon is better than gasoline? Patent it! At 50-100 grams carbon/cell at 0.1 watts this could mean 2,093,350 to 4,187,000 seconds or 24 to 48 DAYS of "O/U" heat output. :-) Uhh . . . the output is 10 to 20 watts, not 0.1 watt. We would never try to make it self heat with only a tenth watt. Okay, we have 0.1 kg, or 5 MJ of fuel. 10 watts is 600 joules/minute which would exhaust 5 MJ of fuel in 8,333 minutes or 138 hours or 6 days. To put it terms I can relate to, if you set fill a kerosene lamp with two cups of fuel and you manage to set the flame to be about twice as bright as a small candle (20 watts - kinda difficult to get it that low), and you burn it 4.5 hours every night for a month you will need to fill it again. Ay-uh, as they say in New England. (By the way, don't ever let a kerosene lamp burn to the bottom. It will explode!) Anyway, the device does not produce excess heat with hydrogen, only with deuterium, so the Sparber hypothesis is wrong. Chemically, CH4 is the same as CD4. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 15:26:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15811; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980429172002.00bc7044 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:20:02 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! In-Reply-To: <000201bd7387$8612cc40$255b2bcf ar91037.argis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Xtsut1.0.qs3.rWwHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18046 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 10:55 4/29/98 -0500, Craig wrote: >Is this correct math? One Sigma being equal to the accuracy assessment. How do you know >that a calorimetry that is defined to be 10% accurate is using the One Sigma >curve to define it. That's just MY customary definition of accuracy. I've always used the 1 sigma value because that's the value that typical regression analysis provides, etc. etc., etc. >It seems more reasonable to define the accuracy at the >Three Sigma curve. You may certainly do so if you like...and there are good arguments for doing so (like if you are dealing with folks who don't understand statistics). Then the detection limit would be equal to the accuracy. >So the question is, are you sure? Yes....but thanks for checking anyway. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 15:31:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19392; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:29:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:29:44 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <015a01bd73bd$c4b129c0$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , Subject: Re: Sparber: 50 MJ/kg Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:25:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"k7J8a3.0.wk4.NdwHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18047 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 3:56 PM Subject: Sparber: 50 MJ/kg >To: Vortex > >Frederick J. Sparber writes: > > The enthalpy of formation for 2 H2 + C = CH4 IS 12,000 Cal/gram or > 50,250 joule/gram. Just a small misteak,Jed. Should be 50,250 joule/12.0 grams of carbon, thus 4,187.5 joule/gram. If there is 50 to 100 grams in a run that is a potential of 209,375 to 418,750 joules of hydrogen-deuterium "burning" heat. At 0.1 watts (0.1 joule/second) 2,093,750 to 4,187,500 seconds = 24.233 days to 48.466 days worth of "0.1 watt O/U". At 10 - 20 watts, 20,937 to 10,468 seconds for 50 to 100 grams of carbon-hydrogen "burning". Should be able to measure that weight loss with a Huey P. Long scale. :-) I was going by Horace's calculations, Jed. > >Anyway, the device does not produce excess heat with hydrogen, only with >deuterium, so the Sparber hypothesis is wrong. Good Grief! Never! :-) Chemically, CH4 is the same as >CD4. Not so. There are many chemical-thermochemical differences. See how long you live on a high intake of D2O. :-( Fascinating! Regards, Frederick > >- Jed > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 15:57:36 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25566; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:55:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:55:10 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:02:20 -0800 To: "Frederick J. Sparber" , From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"kCly72.0.DF6.B_wHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18048 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 2:31 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >The enthalpy of formation for 2 H2 + C = CH4 IS >12,000 Cal/gram or 50,250 joule/gram. > >At 50-100 grams carbon/cell at 0.1 watts this could mean 2,093,350 to >4,187,000 seconds or >24 to 48 DAYS of "O/U" heat output. :-) > >FJSp On page 5-26 of the 74th Edition of the CRC Handbook, I see the standard enthalpy of formation, delta f h deg. (in kJ/mol at 298.15 K) listed as -74.7. Given that the atomic weight of carbon is 12.011, that's 6.219 kJ/g. For 100 grams of carbon, that's 621.9 kJ max. At 0.1 W/g output the (at most) 100 grams of carbon in the cell will put out 10 watts of power. There is thus 621,900 J/(10 J/s) = 62,190 seconds of operation max. I count that as 17.275 hours. Where did I go wrong? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 16:06:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20733; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980429175603.00bc812c mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:56:03 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Case progress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"MfwKh1.0.t35.D2xHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18049 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The system is all together now. The chamber is loaded with 27 grams (about 90cc) of the makeshift catalyst and I have pumped it down for several hours...at room temperature. I'm inclined to heat the chamber while pumping on it but Case didn't and this is a replication attempt...so room temperature it is. Tomorrow we'll do the first loading with hydrogen (not deuterium), just as Case does it. I spoke with Doug Perkins of United Catalysts today (502-634-7241) and ordered a 100 cc "sample" of G-75E catalyst for $300. It will be here in a couple of days. Doug is the guy that Case has been working with over the last 2 years and he is fairly well convinced that Case is onto a genuine effect. Anybody wanting to attempt the Case experiment can obtain a similar sample of the proper catalyst from Doug. Stay tuned. Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 16:11:17 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22849; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:14:38 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Sparber: 50 MJ/kg Resent-Message-ID: <"uVGCk.0.xa5.JCxHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18050 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:25 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >I was going by Horace's calculations, Jed. [snip] How's that? Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 16:48:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28874; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <017e01bd73c7$e4d6a400$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: , "Horace Heffner" Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:38:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"i_1Nu1.0.437.ajxHr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18051 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: Frederick J. Sparber ; vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! >At 2:31 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: > >>The enthalpy of formation for 2 H2 + C = CH4 IS >>12,000 Cal/gram or 50,250 joule/gram. >> >>At 50-100 grams carbon/cell at 0.1 watts this could mean 2,093,350 to >>4,187,000 seconds or >>24 to 48 DAYS of "O/U" heat output. :-) >> >>FJSp > > >On page 5-26 of the 74th Edition of the CRC Handbook, I see the standard >enthalpy of formation, delta f h deg. (in kJ/mol at 298.15 K) listed as >-74.7. Given that the atomic weight of carbon is 12.011, that's 6.219 You DO NOT use the Heat of Formation for thermochemical reaction energies, Horace, use the Gibbs Free Energy delta G. 2 H2 + C ----> CH4 + 12,120 Kcal/gram-mole. OK? >kJ/g. > >For 100 grams of carbon, that's 621.9 kJ max. At 0.1 W/g output the (at >most) 100 grams of carbon in the cell will put out 10 watts of power. >There is thus 621,900 J/(10 J/s) = 62,190 seconds of operation max. I >count that as 17.275 hours. Just multiply by (12,120*4.187)/74,700. ~= .66 > >Where did I go wrong? It was back in '68 when you voted for Nixon. :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 16:57:39 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08998; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:55:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:55:07 -0700 From: VCockeram Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:54:24 EDT To: vortex-l eskimo.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Resent-Message-ID: <"8QJ93.0.PC2.PtxHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18052 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In a message dated 98-04-29 14:54:40 EDT, you write: > From: george varisys.com (George Holz) > ........... > The flyback transformer you are using to drive > the plasma tube is probably far from optimum > to maximize power to the tube. Oh I completely agree with this. It was the only thing I had laying around that was capable of HV at the time I thought up this experiment. The transformer has a large coil with 6 taps. I did some tests to determine which combination gave the highest voltage (longest spark in air, about 3/4 inch) and used that combination when I wired it into the experiment. It's very low current. Hardly a jolt at all when I went across the output. Does produce a burn though, but you can hardly notice the shock. Put it this way; the shock from an automobile spark plug to me, is about 100 times more painful. I believe this thing can only put out maybe 10 milliamps at best. Hmmm, I just had a 27 in Magnavox TV die. (wont power on) and it has a nice solid state HV DC second anode supply in it. Maybe I will just tell Laura it cant be fixed. ..... Regards, Vince Las Vegas From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 17:56:56 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22756; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:55:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:55:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:02:53 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Resent-Message-ID: <"RICU23.0.LZ5.wlyHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18053 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 5:38 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: [snip] >You DO NOT use the Heat of Formation for thermochemical reaction energies, >Horace, use the Gibbs Free Energy delta G. > 2 H2 + C ----> CH4 + 12,120 Kcal/gram-mole. OK? >>kJ/g. >> >>For 100 grams of carbon, that's 621.9 kJ max. At 0.1 W/g output the (at >>most) 100 grams of carbon in the cell will put out 10 watts of power. >>There is thus 621,900 J/(10 J/s) = 62,190 seconds of operation max. I >>count that as 17.275 hours. > >Just multiply by (12,120*4.187)/74,700. ~= .66 The 2nd law strikes again! Interesting observation. Could be the basis of all kinds of "overunity" mistakes. Doesn't explain the Case case, however. If it's half as good as billed, Case has a real winner. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 18:54:19 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00483; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:50:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:50:50 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01a801bd73d9$e21b9d80$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:47:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"OVNDq.0.O7.vZzHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18054 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials!!! >At 5:38 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >[snip] >>You DO NOT use the Heat of Formation for thermochemical reaction energies, >>Horace, use the Gibbs Free Energy delta G. >> 2 H2 + C ----> CH4 + 12,120 Kcal/gram-mole. OK? >>>kJ/g. >>> >>>For 100 grams of carbon, that's 621.9 kJ max. At 0.1 W/g output the (at >>>most) 100 grams of carbon in the cell will put out 10 watts of power. >>>There is thus 621,900 J/(10 J/s) = 62,190 seconds of operation max. I >>>count that as 17.275 hours. >> >>Just multiply by (12,120*4.187)/74,700. ~= .66 > >The 2nd law strikes again! Interesting observation. Could be the basis of >all kinds of "overunity" mistakes. > >Doesn't explain the Case case, however. If it's half as good as billed, >Case has a real winner. Yes Indeed. The modified Saha equation posted earlier today suggests that the Pd is necessary for splitting the H-H or D-D bond at 425 to 525 K. But after that the C-H, C-CH3, H-C-H bonds etc. could be following the exothermic steps used in the hydrogenation of coal to grease.That is why the G-75 Pd on Activated Carbon is used as a HYDROGENATION Catalyst for hydrocarbons where the carbon skeleton is replenished. Lots of chemical analysis and weight-gain data needed to back up the thermal data. Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 18:57:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01629; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:55:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:55:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3547DBAC.172 LCIA.COM> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:02:20 -0400 From: B25B LCIA.COM (RON BRENNEN) Reply-To: B25B LCIA.COM X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Minato magnetic motor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OREeh3.0.NP.QezHr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18055 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Jerry Decker, What is the latest on the Minato motor? There ws supposed to be a demo unit in L.A. in april. Ron Brennen From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 19:57:10 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08147; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:52:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:52:48 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01b801bd73e2$762ff720$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials! ! ! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:47:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"wF75n2.0.C_1.-T-Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18056 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Here you go,Horace. In the thermal processing to make Activated Carbon and Dope it with Palladium, many endothermic compounds may be made: C2H2 (acetylene) Gibbs free energy 50 Kcal/mole and many unsaturated "olefins", ethylene, propylene, and so on, all endothermic from a few Kcal/mole to 50 Kcal/mole or more. These Hydrogenate Exothermally to the Alkanes etc: H-C***C-H + 2 H2 + E ----> C2H6 Ethane +50,000 + E = -7,900 E = -7,900 -50,000 E = -57,900 E = -242.43 Kilojoules! Same heat as burning 2 H2 + O2. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 20:08:07 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26794; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:11:11 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials! ! ! Resent-Message-ID: <"-RvD5.0.ZY6.vf-Hr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18057 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 8:47 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >Here you go,Horace. > >In the thermal processing to make Activated Carbon and Dope it with >Palladium, many endothermic compounds may be made: > >C2H2 (acetylene) Gibbs free energy 50 Kcal/mole and many unsaturated >"olefins", ethylene, propylene, and so on, all endothermic from a few >Kcal/mole to 50 Kcal/mole or more. > >These Hydrogenate Exothermally to the Alkanes etc: > >H-C***C-H + 2 H2 + E ----> C2H6 Ethane > +50,000 + E = -7,900 > E = -7,900 -50,000 > E = -57,900 > E = -242.43 Kilojoules! > >Same heat as burning 2 H2 + O2. :-) > >Regards, Frederick That's a biggie. But at 141.22 kJ/mole = 11.75 kJ/g of carbon, you are still not even close to running for a month with 100 grams of carbon at 10 watts. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 20:19:06 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14553; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:14:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:14:45 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01c701bd73e5$800295c0$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials! ! ! Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:10:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"J9jjp3.0.5Z3.Yo-Hr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18058 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Beware of wrong materials! ! ! >At 8:47 PM 4/29/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>Here you go,Horace. >> >>In the thermal processing to make Activated Carbon and Dope it with >>Palladium, many endothermic compounds may be made: >> >>C2H2 (acetylene) Gibbs free energy 50 Kcal/mole and many unsaturated >>"olefins", ethylene, propylene, and so on, all endothermic from a few >>Kcal/mole to 50 Kcal/mole or more. >> >>These Hydrogenate Exothermally to the Alkanes etc: >> >>H-C***C-H + 2 H2 + E ----> C2H6 Ethane >> +50,000 + E = -7,900 >> E = -7,900 -50,000 >> E = -57,900 >> E = -242.43 Kilojoules! >> >>Same heat as burning 2 H2 + O2. :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > > >That's a biggie. But at 141.22 kJ/mole = 11.75 kJ/g of carbon, you are >still not even close to running for a month with 100 grams of carbon at 10 >watts. That's the exciting part,isn't it? :-) Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 21:57:44 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15344; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:54:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:54:03 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01dc01bd73f3$52275b00$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Off Topic, Nixon 68 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:48:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Tx4C1.0.Bl3.cF0Ir" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18059 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In late October 1968 while on a combined business trip-vacation at my brother's place, I was to catch a flight out of the Erie Pa. Airport. As fate would have it,my flight from Erie to Chicago was held up because of a Nixon campaign stop-over at the airport (which at that time barely accommodate the smaller 727). So my sister-in-law suggested we "go early and see Mr. Nixon". We were going through the crowd outside in the pleasant fall setting and my sister-in-law who has a voice that stands out in any crowd, shouted out to me," come up here Fred, we can get a better shot at him". You never saw so so many people scatter so fast in your life, including me. :-) Sure was glad to get out of Erie that day. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Wed Apr 29 23:16:18 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22687; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01e801bd73fc$af6f4620$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: Deuterium-Pd-Activated Carbon Reaction Scenario Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:55:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"X1klG3.0.KY5.HF1Ir" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18060 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To Vortex: In the Pd-Activated Carbon lattice, a close approach of an electron to a deuteron could create a neutrino-antineutrino pair forming a Quasi-dineutron oN-2 (about 2.01420 Amu. This can react with a deuteron (1H2)to form 1H4 which will beta decay to 2He4 + e- plus an antineutrino which can carry off the lion's share of some 24 Mev given off in this reaction. Not much chance of the carbon being involved,since it's low neutron capture cross-section is why it is used as a moderator in nuclear reactors. Make sense? Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 03:45:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25761; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:43:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:43:03 -0700 X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <01f401bd7424$210ebaa0$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: The Unthinkable Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:38:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"gD60S1.0.QI6.sM5Ir" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18061 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex: If Carbon is so great at moderating "thermalizing" neutrons, perhaps it or it's electrons can moderate the 24 Mev antineutrinos too? I think I'm going to leave town. :-) Regards, Frederick From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 05:30:14 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05624; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:29:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:29:22 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:36:59 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: hheffner corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: The Unthinkable Resent-Message-ID: <"SXRXw3.0.jN1.Xw6Ir" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18062 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 4:38 AM 4/30/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >To Vortex: > >If Carbon is so great at moderating "thermalizing" neutrons, perhaps it or >it's >electrons can moderate the 24 Mev antineutrinos too? >I think I'm going to leave town. :-) > >Regards, Frederick If carbon moderates neutrinos it should spontaneously warm up when well insulated. The best test of Case, as well, as Jed mentioned, is the ability to self maintain temperature once in the operational regime. The best explanation for Case is bad calorimetry, which is extremely easy to do mistakenly. With no heat as input, that explanation disappears. Even neutrino moderation, quasi-neutrons and all kinds of bizarre speculations will not be out of hand if the Case device runs indefinitely without input. There is still the matter of the helium production, and the unsubstantiated fact it appears to work with D2 but not H2, both of which point to a cold fusion explanation. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 06:11:01 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05173; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:05:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <020101bd7437$e1cbe020$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: Subject: Re: The Unthinkable Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:59:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"g6oPX3.0.kG1.sS7Ir" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18063 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: -----Original Message----- From: Horace Heffner To: vortex-l eskimo.com Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 6:29 AM Subject: Re: The Unthinkable Horace wrote: >At 4:38 AM 4/30/98, Frederick J. Sparber wrote: >>To Vortex: >> >>If Carbon is so great at moderating "thermalizing" neutrons, perhaps it or >>it's >>electrons can moderate the 24 Mev antineutrinos too? >>I think I'm going to leave town. :-) >> >>Regards, Frederick > > >If carbon moderates neutrinos it should spontaneously warm up when well >insulated. Yes. Now then, since based on recent findings that the neutrino has a rest mass of between 0.5 and 1.7 ev, and is neutral,if it is carrying 24 Mev of kinetic (relativistic) energy when it collides with an electron of 1/48th of this it will impart .51/49 or 10.41 Kev of energy to the struck electron which will drop that energy in 2^n collisions with other electrons. Then each subsequent collision will be similar until the 24 Mev is dissipated as thermal energy sans any ionizing radiation to speak of. > >The best test of Case, as well, as Jed mentioned, is the ability to self >maintain temperature once in the operational regime. The best explanation >for Case is bad calorimetry, which is extremely easy to do mistakenly. >With no heat as input, that explanation disappears. Even neutrino >moderation, quasi-neutrons and all kinds of bizarre speculations will not >be out of hand if the Case device runs indefinitely without input. There >is still the matter of the helium production, and the unsubstantiated fact >it appears to work with D2 but not H2, both of which point to a cold fusion >explanation. Not necessarily, the formation of a Quasi-dineutrino should release about 2.0 Kev. Fusion reactions of these with a deuteron to form He4 may be a bit more iffy. In any case the Pd will do the D-D bond splitting at 425 to 525 deg K to get things going and the hundreds of meter^2/gram carbon lattice will do the rest. I think Solar or other "thermonuclear" fusion reaction rates are telling us that proton fusion reaction cross-sections are many orders of magnitude below what you would expect with deuterons. Regards, Frederick > >Regards, > >Horace Heffner > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 06:14:20 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12385; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:13:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:13:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3548781F.3F31 keelynet.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:09:51 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Joe Champion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SwuyE.0.M13.uZ7Ir" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18064 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts! I have been asked to forward this to vortex-l by a mutual friend of Joe Champion and company who wishes to remain anonymous. Public records now exist to back up the statement if you wish to check it out with a couple of phone calls. ----------------------- Joe Champion will not be participating in the Vortex-l list for a while. He has taken an extended vacation at the request of the State of Arizona. During Joe's absence from the list he will be provided with three meals per day and room and board. During his "vacation" Joe will not be continuing with his transmutation experiments. He could be away on his "vacation" for up to a maximum of 10 years but if he is a good boy and behaves himself you might be seeing his cheerful posts on the list in somewhere between 3 and 5 years. ------------------------------ This is the verbatim quote and I have no further knowledge of the matter which you can check out for yourself. The last time I spoke with Joe was about 3 months ago when he called saying he had just made $78,000 worth of gold. At that time, Joe said he had gotten the process so refined (no pun intended) as to cost $17.00 for raw materials to produce 1 ounce of gold. As I understand it, the gold isn't gold as we normally view it, but it ASSAYS as gold. The assay certificate is what I am told determines the value of the sample ingot, so this certificate is what is used to 'borrow money' with the certified sample ingot held as collateral. I don't pretend to understand all these machinations but we call all see the result. Gold is Gold and I think any artificially created gold should have all the characteristics and properties of the real thing to be equated to it. There is a fellow who made an unusual alloy from copper which had most of the properties of gold, I looked for the file but was unable to find it for additional information here. Joe is not ex-communicado and can be reached for comment at his current location (which I don't know at the moment), though the state of Arizona can provide that location. Perhaps Gene Mallove or Hal Fox would be interested in doing a story on this latest in the Champion Saga. (and thanks to Mr. Anonyomous for this news brief) -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 07:34:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15196; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:29:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Complaints-To: abuse sprintmail.com Message-ID: <021901bd7443$7fa9b0a0$598cbfa8 default> Reply-To: "Frederick J. Sparber" From: "Frederick J. Sparber" To: "Vortex-L" Subject: CNN - Canada opens underground observatory to study solar particles - Apr. 29, Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:22:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD7411.26194BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Resent-Message-ID: <"7FEVx1.0.Kj3.mg8Ir" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18065 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD7411.26194BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Small, but able to kick an electron? http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9804/29/solar_observ.ap/ ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD7411.26194BE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="CNN - Canada opens underground observatory to study solar particles - Apr. 29, 1998.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="CNN - Canada opens underground observatory to study solar particles - Apr. 29, 1998.url" [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9804/29/solar_observ.ap/ Modified=E0AC212B4374BD014D ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BD7411.26194BE0-- From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 07:36:59 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16066; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35487CEB.4BB5 earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:30:19 -0500 From: Rich Murray Reply-To: rmforall earthlink.net Organization: Room For All X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vortex-L eskimo.com, la@utkux.utk.edu, orian001@maroon.tc.umn.edu, coppedge student.uiuc.edu, go4ceti@aol.com, mokuniewsk@aol.com, daniele.garbelli pirelli.com, celani@frascati.infn.it, opa@aps.org, akito nucl.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp, szpak@nosc.mil, bossp@nosc.mil, dashj psu4.pdx.edu, jstanly@mse.ogi.edu, dg@cco.caltech.edu, collis netcity.it, ell@lanl.gov, sphkoji@sci.shizuoka.ac.jp, jdunn ctc.org, bakealamos@juno.com, Schaffer@gav.gat.com, claytor_t_n lanl.gov, g-miley@uiuc.edu, mizuno@qe.eng.hokudai.ac.jp, ceti msn.com, design73@aol.com, mcfee@xdiv.lanl.gov, mike_mckubre qm.sri.com, tchubb@aol.com, chubb@ccsalpha2.nrl.navy.mil, jaeger eneco-usa.com, cincygrp@ix.netcom.com, nagel@dave.nrl.navy.mil, jjones ebs330.eb.uah.edu, simonb@post.queensu.ca, norm.olson@pnl.gov, miles nhelab.iae.or.jp, z@ccyber.com, ldhansen@chemdept.byu.edu, 76002.1473 compuserve.com, wolfy2@erols.com, rwall@ix.netcom.com, zettsjs ml.wpafb.af.mil, kirk.shanahan@srs.gov, blue@pilot.msu.edu, sejones physics1.ln.byu.edu, terry4@llnl.gov, wireless@amigo.net, ikegami nifs.ac.jp, takahashi@bnlarm.bnl.gov, kitamura cc.kshosen.ac.jp, bressani@to.infn.it, sanchez bosque.sdi.uam.es, tsarev@x4u.lebedev.ru, msrini mAgnum.BARCT1.ERNET.IN, iwamura@atrc.mhi.co.jp, lipson lmm.phyche.msk.su, p.hodgson1@physics.oxford.ac.uk, zqwei ns.lzb.ac.cn, mac@iae.or.jp, TPASSELL@epri.com Subject: Murray: Vortexans off my private list 04/30/98 References: <34AA67B2.3230 earthlink.net> <34AC64F1.20B9@earthlink.net> <34AC6C86.6EA6@earthlink.net> <34AEFCFB.39E1@earthlink.net> <34B0F513.24A8@earthlink.net> <34B1C4B2.72F0@earthlink.net> <34B5A2F4.6506@earthlink.net> <34B65404.6276@earthlink.net> <34 BC2AB6.77F7 earthlink.net> <34BC36BC.CB5@earthlink.net> <34BCDCAF.A1B@earthlink.net> <34BD9AC3.31D4@earthlink.net> <34BEAB94.73FC@earthlink.net> <34C04660.47AF@earthlink.net> <34C04DA2.16AC@earthlink.net> <34C439DD.75C8@earthlink.net> <34C578C0.1C32@earth link.net> <34C6779A.369C earthlink.net> <34C7EAEC.AC6@earthlink.net> <34C822AB.5B9B@earthlink.net> <34C8B094.6977@earthlink.net> <34CD670D.1E0C@earthlink.net> <34CDFF1B.34D4@earthlink.net> <34CF224E.1014@earthlink.net> <34D01AC2.216A@earthlink.net> <34D31 63E.3C13 earthlink.net> <34D400B8.260@earthlink.net> <34D51CDA.4E43@earthlink.net> <34D5E39A.4B46@earthlink.net> <34D5E553.29FA@earthlink.net> <34D6A346.5E02@earthlink.net> <34D88B9E.1BAD@earthlink.net> <34D8995A.78A4@earthl! ink.net> <34D8F09C.6BDA earthlink.net> <34D9D680.4B88@earthlink.net> <34D9DF18.5206@earthlink.net> <34DA96D5.49DA@earthlink.net> <34DFC098.4EB3@earth link.net> <34DFCF2E.4FE6 earthlink.net> <34DFD6A4.4BCA@earthlink.net> <34E086C2.5227@earthlink.net> <34E27F36.156@earthlink.net> <34E5922F.370A@earthlink.net> <34E8CD5D.7940@earthlink.net> <34E915C4.3864@earthlink.net> <34EA1D9E.2872@earthlink.net> <34EAD EA7.1CF3 earthlink.net> <34ED1648.168C@earthlink.net> <34EDE6E0.5C23@earthlink.net> <34EE024C.3E82@earthlink.net> <34F1946E.4897@earthlink.net> <34F237E4.7DF5@earthlink.net> <34F36D92.7482@earthlink.net> <34F6F61E.7D86@earthlink.net> <34F6F8AA.1837@earthl ink.net> <34F73CC1.437D earthlink.net> <34F73E74.655@earthlink.net> <34F8C76A.74D0@earthlink.net> <34FEFD1A.5D33@earthlink.net> <3501CB77.7E3@earthlink.net> <3501CC8C.1074@earthlink.net> <350200D5.F6E@earthlink.net> <3504077! A.4714 earthlink.net> <35048733.! 2BD4 earthlink.net> <3507265A.6688@earthlink..net> <3507E849..71E9@earthlink..net> <3507F075.5FAF@earthlink.net> <3509754E.71A@earthlink.net> <350B46CB.738D@earthlink.net> <350D875E.5C59@earthlink.net> <350DAD0F.535F@earth link.net> <350EF2C0.638F earthlink.net> <350F1C98.6C7C@earthlink.net> <350FE66B.74C2@earthlink.net> <3511F4E8.12B5@earthlink.net> <35129B81.6DB7@earthlink.net> <3512DE75.2B4E@earthlink.net> <3513C4D6.207D@earthlink.net> <351467AE.524F@earthlink.net> <3514 6962.45DB earthlink.net> <35151676.330F@earthlink.net> <3515D3D7.4EEF@earthlink.net> <3515FDDC.3919@earthlink.net> <35166389.35FD@earthlink.net> <3516808F.7FAD@earthlink.net> <35168284.325A@earthlink.net> <35173624.F60@earthlink.net> <35173888.2F66@earthl ink.net> <3517D0D2.576B earthlink.net> <3517D8AC.15FE@earthlink.net> <35191A32.79D0@earthlink.net> <35192280.59F7@earthlink.net> <351927C2.1C1C@earthlink.net> <35197EE9.6774@earthlink.net> <351983F1.52DC@earthlink.net> <351A! 738A.59CE earthlink.net> <351A74! 6E.67E9 earthlink.net> <351ADCAD.78D2@earthlink.net> <351BAFC3.7B8B@ea <3523C6B3.6AEA@earthlink.net> <35251068.4288@earthlink.net> <35255F6F.6217@earthlink.net> <3527D6BB.37C1@earthlink.net> <3527DFFB.2182@earthlink.net> < 3528718F.5388 earthlink.net> <35295715.694D@earthlink.net> <352A2E93.17BE@earthlink.net> <352AA64B.E50@earthlink.net> <352AA9F2.EBB@earthlink.net> <352B6BEE.5F90@earthlink.net> <352B76FF.3C9C@earthlink.net> <352C5551.6DBB@earthlink.net> <352D3FA7.574F@ear thlink.net> <35327BAA.2E6E earthlink.net> <35329E68.1536@earthlink.net> <3533F74A.21BB@earthlink.net> <35357A0D.2BCC@earthlink.net> <353680E3.6267@earthlink.net> <35381CFA.4B05@earthlink.net> <353BBEA3.3243@earthlink.net> <35409075.6E1F@earthlink.net> <35 43B3C7.77C3 earthlink.net> <3543B906.AEB@earthlink.net> <35455771.16CF@earthlink.net> <3545693F.1230@earthlink.net> <35466C4B.5AE1@earthlink.net> <35474634.1CFE@earthlink.net> <35474AE6.7659@earthlink.net> <3547586D.E74@eart! hlink.net> <35479DAF.5C14 earthlink..net> <35487A2D.7A70@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"zvxGB3.0.ww3.Tl8Ir" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18066 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: April 30, 1998 Dear all, I am taking all known Vortex-L subscribers off my private mailing list, available to all for fairly civil critical discussion on cold fusion and new energy research, and adding Vortex-L to the list, to avoid cluttering email boxes with duplicate posts. I will edit any messages from outside Vortex-L to render them civil and polite-- let me know if you feel there are any lapses, such as ad hominem sneers, etc. I will continue posting to and from sci.physics.fusion, although I get very little response there, because I do value the intelligent and informed posts by Britz and by Carr. Let me know if you are a Vortex-L subscriber, getting double posts from me. I am pleased that the climate of discourse on Vortex-L has shifted to much cooperative discussion of the details of replication attempts. As one, Rich Murray Room For All 1943 Otowi Drive Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-986-9103 rmforall earthlink.net From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 09:24:31 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07675; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:20:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:20:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:14:44 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Gas cell calorimetry Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804301219_MC2-3B82-CFC5 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"nN30a2.0.ht1.jIAIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18067 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex Horace Heffner writes: The best test of Case, as well, as Jed mentioned, is the ability to self maintain temperature once in the operational regime. Yup. Frankly, I will not take the Case gadget seriously until it passes this test. The test is functionally equivalent to making SMOT machine rollaway or making a magic magnet motor self sustain. That is to say, it is a test the device ought to pass easily, in principle. An ordinary electric motor is 80 to 90% efficient, so if a magic motor produces even 10% excess, you should be able to couple it to a good quality electric motor and make it self sustain. To my knowledge, no magnet motor has passed this test. The best explanation for Case is bad calorimetry, which is extremely easy to do mistakenly. Yes, isoperibolic gas cell calorimetry can be tricky. Mizuno and Oriani had many discussions about this, some translated by me. The biggest problem is that different gases have different heat conduction coefficients. When a little air contaminates the gas, it causes a large temperature change in the center of the cell. Hydrogen and deuterium gas have different coefficients. Because it is a can of worms, Oriani decided to use a Seebeck calorimeter which he made himself. That solves the problems. Another method would be to use a Dewar cell, install a water cooling loop, and do flow calorimetry. Changes in conduction might heat the sample but the heat would all come out in the flow eventually. If the Case gadget produces as much power as Case thinks it does, it should self-heat and a calorimeter should not be necessary. If the Case device produced only a fraction of a watt, or if the output varied unpredictable as it does with Mizuno's proton conductors, you would have to hold the device at the critical temperature with an auxiliary heater, and you would be forced to use a calorimeter. As I wrote earlier I think Case addressed this problem of the conduction coefficient, but it is complicated so I cannot be sure. Other problems with gas calorimeters are not as severe as you might think. Variations in heat transfer by convection, that is, currents of gas moving around inside the cell, appear to be insignificant. Changes in gas pressure have little effect. In most examples I have seen, like Mizuno's, the sample is suspended in the middle of the gas calorimeter via a rod attached to the cell lid. The thermocouple is in contact with the sample. So when the gas surrounding the sample decides to conduct the heat less efficiently, the sample will heat up. It is like putting an extra blanket over your bed. You get hotter even though you produce no more heat than before. (I think a human body produces 100 to 200 watts.) With the Case cell, however, I believe the material sits on the bottom of the steel cell in contact with the thermocouple *and in contact with the steel wall*. The main heat conduction path is the steel, so variations in gas conduction should not make much difference. That's my guess anyway. We shall see. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 09:46:05 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02410; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:35:03 -0400 From: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> Subject: Gas cell calorimetry - addendum Sender: Jed Rothwell <72240.1256 compuserve.com> To: Blind.Copy.Receiver compuserve.com Message-ID: <199804301238_MC2-3B82-D2C0 compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: <"g7W8o2.0.Vb.ScAIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18068 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: To: Vortex I hasten to add another good reason to believe Case has done his calorimetry correctly. For many years, he got no excess heat. Deuterium would produce the same temperature as hydrogen. He changes only one parameter, the catalyst, and boom -- the heat appears. He goes back to a non-working catalyst and the heat goes away. Other parameters are unchanged as far as he knows. This is a good indication that the catalyst is the controlling factor as well as being the actual source of the heat. I suppose a gas conduction artifact or some other calorimetry problem would show up at random, with any catalyst. - Jed From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 10:18:03 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22260; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:13:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:13:36 -0700 From: "George Holz" To: Subject: Re: H2 Glow Discharge with a K electrode Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:19:20 -0400 Message-ID: <01bd745c$1cb6fed0$3f6cd626 george.varisys.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"m-_ln.0.iR5._4BIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18069 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vince Cockeram wrote: >The transformer has a large coil with 6 taps. I did some tests to determine >which combination gave the highest voltage (longest spark in air, >about 3/4 inch) and used that combination when I wired it into the experiment. >It's very low current. Hardly a jolt at all when I went across the output. - Hi Vince, With your electrode spacing, breakdown with the low pressure gas fills will be at a much lower voltage than air breakdown at 1 ATM. By selecting the taps that provided the highest voltage you minimized power to the tube. Selecting the tap that will just breakdown the tube at low pressure could provide more efficient power transfer to the tube. The high voltage is only required for ignition, power transfer to the tube would probably be maximized after ignition from about a 600 volt source. The mismatch causes most of the power to be lost in the driver circuit. - I could easily steal the HV supply from my 27" Sony and my wife and business partner Loretta would probably not notice for months, until she decided to watch some folk dancing tape. I don't want to miss the Knicks last? playoff game tonight though. :-) These TV supplies are really all wrong for this purpose anyway. Ignition can be supplied by a HV pulse to an external wire electrode as is typically done in flash tubes and a lower voltage supply can provide the real power. Have fun and outperform BLP! - George Holz george varisys.com Varitronics Systems From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 12:32:46 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16424; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:26:23 -0700 Sender: barry math.ucla.edu Message-ID: <3548D053.681 math.ucla.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:26:11 -0700 From: Barry Merriman Organization: UCLA Dept. of Mathematics X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Joe Champion References: <3548781F.3F31 keelynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"QNLZ72.0.Y04.U1DIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18070 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jerry W. Decker wrote: > > Joe Champion ... > He has taken an extended vacation at the request of the State of > Arizona. > Since some folks are asking me, I will confirm that my preliminary finding is that this is indeed true---i.e. Joe Champion is going to be in jail for at least several years, and up to 10. All I have to add is that, based on my close relationship with Joe the past 2 years, I would say that both legally and morally Joe deserves what he got. He's a very likable fellow, at a casual level, but he definitely violated his parole and also ripped off many people by selling them unworkable transmutation schemes. And he is what ordinary people would call a pathological liar, although technically he mainly exagerates things to ridiculous extremes. Two typical cases of interest to vortex readers illustrating this would be (1) 2 years ago, JC announced here that he would have an on site demo in August of his industrial transmuation process, and invited 12 scientists to attend and verify. This was the point at which I first got involved, in fact. Subsequent investigation showed that the the owners of the site of Joe's intended demo had no idea of his plans, and also no further interest in Joe's processes. The reality was that, at the time Joe announced his on site demo, Joe was fishing around for a site + someone to construct all the equipment, and it was just a pie-in-the-sky dream that it would ever take place at all---the processses in question were not even working, much less at a large scale. The discrepancy between what Joe publicly said was a major planned (he had a date, site, ect) demo event, and reality, was vast. (2) Sometime later, also announce here on vortex, there was the great "Hafnium Event", in which Joe's processes, under the execution of a third party, were producing a grey metal that turned out to be Hafnium, in "gram" (!) quantities from kilogram quantities of ingredients. Privately Joe told me it was infact 100's of gram quantities. The reality was that the process was indeed producing 100's of grams of grey material, most of which was salts. The mass-spec done at UCLA showed it had hafnium in it, in minute amounts, and analytical chemical tests done at a reputable commercial lab put the level of Hafnium (as well as Zr, Gold, Silver and Platinum) at less than 10 ppm. Also, I have subsequently interviewed the other parties that had tested the material prior to Joe's public announcemnts here, and none of them put the Hf content at beyond a few ppm (the tests I had done were by far the most reliable). Thus, Joe had no reason to think there were more than ppm levels, which could easily have been contimation, given the setup that was producing the material. So, given that Hf was present at the level of a few ppm, we again have a case were Joe was off by a factor of 100,000 in his statements. I could easily give another 5 or so first hand stories like the above, and probably 100 second hand stories, but the above make the point with stuff that was actually published here on Vortex. Joe is a pathological exagerator---that is fact, no ad hominum. As for the technical question of whether Joe really does have processes that can turn lead into gold, all I can say is that after numerous repeated attemtps, he was never able to transmit to me a repeatable experiment. It remains a mystery as to how his processes have been able to convince a few certain credible others of the reality of the effect---I still plan to get to the bottom of that, and really Joe is not needed to answer this question....he doesn't know the answer himself, I'm convinced, nor does he have the ability to demosntrate a repeatable process that might shed light on the answer, nor can anything he says be trusted. But, for the record, my own personal experience so far suggests that Joe has absolutely no ability to make gold, but does have the ability to muddy the waters enough to keep the dream alive for himself and others. -- Barry Merriman Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program email: barry math.ucla.edu homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 13:18:22 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01836; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <3548D8DD.2C05885D css.mot.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:02:37 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Discussion Group - Vortex Subject: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"27jpr.0.bS.FbDIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18071 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: PARIS (Reuters) - Vast solar tornadoes, nearly as wide as the Earth and gusting at up to 300,000 mph, have been discovered by the European Space Agency's SOHO spacecraft, the agency reported Tuesday. John E. Steck ------------------------------------o}{: Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 13:56:04 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA31950; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:47:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:47:54 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980430204738.00673914 freeway.net> X-Sender: estrojny freeway.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:47:38 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Edwin Strojny Subject: Re: Gas cell calorimetry - addendum Resent-Message-ID: <"TqcAE2.0.3p7.vDEIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18072 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 12:35 PM 4/30/98 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: >To: Vortex > >I hasten to add another good reason to believe Case has done his calorimetry >correctly. For many years, he got no excess heat. Deuterium would produce the >same temperature as hydrogen. He changes only one parameter, the catalyst, and >boom -- the heat appears. He goes back to a non-working catalyst and the heat >goes away. Other parameters are unchanged as far as he knows. This is a good >indication that the catalyst is the controlling factor as well as being the >actual source of the heat. I suppose a gas conduction artifact or some other >calorimetry problem would show up at random, with any catalyst. > >- Jed > If I remember what Case said correctly, all non-working catalysts had mineral supports. It was when he switched to carbon supported platinum group metals that he got higher temperatures with deuterium. This observation by Case tends to bolster Frederick Sparber's argument that chemical reactions may be taking place with carbon. Ed Strojny From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 14:16:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04152; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:10:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:10:16 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3548D8DD.2C05885D css.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:08:54 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth Resent-Message-ID: <"S_qpV2.0.l01.tYEIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18073 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - > PARIS (Reuters) - Vast solar tornadoes, > nearly as wide as the Earth and gusting at up > to 300,000 mph, have been discovered by the > European Space Agency's SOHO spacecraft, the > agency reported Tuesday. Uh oh, better call Richard Hoaglund. It must follow then that there are also vast trailer parks on the sun. But I suppose NASA and the ESA are covering up that fact for insurance purposes. - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 14:40:51 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09378; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:32:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:32:16 -0700 Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender John_Steck css.mot.com ) Sender: johnste ecg.csg.mot.com Message-Id: <3548EDD2.E46270D2 css.mot.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:32:02 -0500 From: John Steck Organization: Motorola CSS, Libertyville X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"OaBGW.0.MI2.VtEIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18074 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > It must follow then that there are also vast trailer parks on the sun. Alien trailer parks? Probably airbrushed out of the 'released' photos.... John E. Steck ------------------------------------o}{: Rapid Tooling Applications Motorola CSS, Libertyville From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 14:42:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09795; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:35:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:35:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3548EE8C.4542 interlaced.net> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:35:08 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth References: <3548D8DD.2C05885D css.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"E1onp.0.zO2.LwEIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18075 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John Steck wrote: > > PARIS (Reuters) - Vast solar tornadoes, nearly as wide as > the Earth and gusting at up to 300,000 mph, have been discovered > by the European Space Agency's SOHO spacecraft, the agency > reported Tuesday. > This reminds me of a favorite speculation (day dream?) of mine, John. If we accept that the earth's atmosphere can, on occasion, generate ball lightning with life times as long as several minutes, I wonder what the super energies in the solar atmosphere could do along these lines. Consider the energy level in the magnetic effects that are observed. What if the sun's upper atmosphere could generate huge samples of ball lightning containing enough energy to last for 10 to 100 hours. Could such chunks of ball lightning be expelled outward to the planets at enough velocity to survive until a planetary encounter occurred? If such a solar lightning ball were to reach Earth would it enter the atmosphere and make one heck of a UFO? If the ball had an average speed of 1/100 light speed, then it should take about 13.9 hours to reach earth. Any Vortex documentarians who would like to go back in history and try to correlate UFO sighting peaks with solar activity? This sounds like a good job for Fred Sparber - since he hates to get his hands dirty on messy old hardware. ||||||| / \ <--- Stenger watching a O| O O |O 10 meter dia. hunk of | O | solar ball lightning. \ \_/ / \___/ Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 16:19:13 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27056; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980430181013.00bc6de8 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:10:13 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Case Run 1 underway Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"D5XHt3.0.fc6.sKGIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18076 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Gnorts, With the usual startup difficulties, our first run with the Case experiment got underway today. Remember, we are using a makeshift catalyst in this run. First we evacuated the chamber for several hours at room temperature. We filled the chamber to 50 psi of hydrogen (not D) and closed it off. We then heated the chamber to ~175C. That takes only ~20 watts in our system. As expected the pressure rose initially (towards 60 psi) but within an hour began to fall noticeably! It ended up around 40 psi. Perhaps some of the H2 gas reacted with something in/on the catalyst (oxygen?). Maybe we have a leak....:( More will be learned tomorrow. Read about our setup (with photos and drawings) at: http://www.eden.com/~little/case/setup.html Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc. http://www.eden.com/~little Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759, USA 512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little eden.com (email) From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 16:20:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27777; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: rtomes kcbbs.gen.nz (Ray Tomes) To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:08:53 GMT Message-ID: <354c0387.4163664 kcbbs.gen.nz> References: <3548EDD2.E46270D2@css.mot.com> In-Reply-To: <3548EDD2.E46270D2 css.mot.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"15JUt1.0.xn6.TQGIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18077 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:32:02 -0500, John Steck wrote: >Rick Monteverde wrote: >> It must follow then that there are also vast trailer parks on the sun. >Alien trailer parks? Probably airbrushed out of the 'released' photos.... The released "photos" that were shown on TV here were all computer generated and accompanied by computer generated animations but not reported as such. Such total misrepresentation of the news is extremely unscientific. Maybe they found something, but why don't we get to see the actual evidence? -- Ray Tomes -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/rtomes/rt-home.htm -- Cycles email list -- http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/cyc.htm Boundaries of Science http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/users/af/scienceb.htm From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 18:03:24 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06003; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:10 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3548EE8C.4542 interlaced.net> References: <3548D8DD.2C05885D css.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:22:19 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth Resent-Message-ID: <"0nCF23.0.VT1.KxHIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18078 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Frank - > Could such chunks of ball lightning be > expelled outward to the planets at enough > velocity to survive until a planetary > encounter occurred? Cagle. Scybolt. Recent vicious stuff on Freenrg when he showed up briefly to preach and denounce everyone. "Religious" person <-(other term snipped out & replaced in favor of forum decorum) who thinks the sun is alive or that Jesus lives in it or something like that, and he's going to punish us evil humans by toasting us with just those very things - giant ball lightning pulses that will cause the earth to heat up and inflate, sinking the Hawaiian Islands, etc. etc. I like the giant ball lightning part though. :) - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 18:04:57 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06039; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:12 -0700 X-Sender: monteverde postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3548EDD2.E46270D2 css.mot.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:15:09 -1000 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth Resent-Message-ID: <"mcj8p3.0._T1.NxHIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18079 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: John - > Alien trailer parks? Probably airbrushed > out of the 'released' photos.... Really. Wonder what their problem is with that. I mean it's not like it would be proof of *intelligent* life up there... - Rick Monteverde Honolulu, HI From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 18:06:33 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06334; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:02:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:02:22 -0700 From: Schaffer gav.gat.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980430181013.00bc6de8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:03:12 -0800 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Case Run 1 underway Resent-Message-ID: <"BkBET1.0.uY1.TyHIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18080 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >...but within an hour began to fall noticeably! > >Perhaps some of the H2 gas reacted with something in/on the catalyst >(oxygen?). I don't know if H2 reacts witn C at an appreciable rate at 175 C and 4 bar to make CH4 or some other hydrocarbon. One mold of methane takes up 2 moles of H2, so the total gas pressure would go down. Got a gas chromotograph? An IR spectrometer? Michael J. Schaffer General Atomics, PO Box 85608, San Diego CA 92186-5608, USA Tel: 619-455-2841 Fax: 619-455-4156 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 18:54:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18774; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:50:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199805010150.SAA31774 Au.oro.net> X-Sender: tessien pop3.oro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: tessien oro.net (Ross Tessien) Subject: Ray etc.; Solar Tornado web site; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id SAA18743 Resent-Message-ID: <"gx_2y.0.Gb4.dhIIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18081 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Ray; Here is a web site where you can download an actual set of images of the "tornado". http://umbra.nascom.nasa.gov/eit/#Tornado The discussion below is from observing the MPEG movie on that page that has as it's title, EIT Fe XII 195 Å observation of an eruptive prominence/CME on the SW limb The hard to see CME event driving the tornado and other phenomena happens about the first thing in the MPEG movie above. I think this is the same as the tornado movie as they both look about the same, though I have been studying this one more closely because it is better. A "fast" CME event is one where the matter blasts out at high velocity. Also, you can see that fast events tend to sort of explode the CME bubble wide open. Sort of like blowing up a balloon with high pressure air until the thing bursts wide open. That is what you can make out in this movie. It helps if you have seen other fast CME events to make this out. Discussion: It looks to me more like a simple coronal mass ejection event just preceeding it if you look closely. The tornado forms due to the expansion of the aether laterally around the surface breakout location. Notice the prominence that builds up near the limb following the tornado event, and notice that the tornado event is more like a shock wave blasting away from the first, (and hard to see) CME event a bit toward the prominence from the tornado. The tornado is really just the ions accelerated laterally from the CME breakout, which slam into the other ions that were further from the break out location. Think of it this way. The aether can be thought of like air. It is real, substantive, invisible, compressible and massive. The ions in the sun are like our clouds. They too are real, but we can see them because they emit light photons. And just as wind, which we do not see, blows the clouds which we do see, so too does aether flowing out of the sun, which we don't see, blow the ions and atoms of the sun which we do see. The aether pressure under the surface of the sun is more intense than it is above the surface. The drop in pressure results from the aether reaching the surface where it no longer must flow through a "fluidized bed" of particles, and is free to expand to galactic pressure values. Thus, near the surface there is a sudden rapid expansion due to the sudden pressure drop. This results in heating the corona to way over a million degrees as ions are flung to high energies (ie velocities) by the expansion. This is what you are seeing in the movie. But rather than just the average values, what you are seeing is sort of like a bubble of aether breaking out of the surface, and so this bubble of greater aether pressure than the surroundings explodes laterally causing the accelerations of the matter we observe. Think in terms of mud pots in volcanic regions where steam bubbles break out of the surface of the mud. Those bubbles break out latterally too, and are caused by "steam" which we don't see, while the mud we do see sort of blurps as the gas bubble breaks. Note that those vibrations head out into the aether ocean around the sun, and so the earth is bathed by those pressure vibrations. These are the long sought longitudinal waves we discuss so many times on this group. The act inertially, ie, couple to the mass of the soliton (aka particle). I hate the word "couple" though, as it implies a force field. All that is happening is that you have an aether vortex in an ocean of aether, so like kelp in the ocean or a jellyfish, where the water goes so too will the solitons. The earth has been measured to indeed be oscillating at the frequency of solar aether vibrations, 5 minutes. Ross Tessien From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 19:30:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23980; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:29:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:29:03 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980430223147.00c20d80 spectre.mitre.org> X-Sender: eachus spectre.mitre.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:31:47 -0400 To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: "Robert I. Eachus" Subject: Re: Case Run 1 underway Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980430181013.00bc6de8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"FEZX21.0.Xs5.lDJIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18082 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:10 PM 4/30/98 -0500, Scott Little wrote: >First we evacuated the chamber for several hours at room temperature. >We filled the chamber to 50 psi of hydrogen (not D) and closed it off. >We then heated the chamber to ~175C. That takes only ~20 watts in our system. >As expected the pressure rose initially (towards 60 psi) but within an hour >began to fall noticeably! It ended up around 40 psi. > >Perhaps some of the H2 gas reacted with something in/on the catalyst >(oxygen?). Likely. It always amazed me how much O2 could remain adsorbed on surfaces in a vacuum unless you did some sort of a boilout. And as for amorphous carbon, a. k. a. activated charcoal, you can literally watch it gain weight on a good quality balance. Of course, you could be adsorbing the hydrogen, but my guess is that you have adsorbed O2 that is reacting with the H2 in the presence of the palladium catalyst. Try baking the catalyst in nitrogen or better argon. Robert I. Eachus with Standard_Disclaimer; use Standard_Disclaimer; function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is... From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 20:30:32 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03107; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:26:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:26:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199805010326.XAA14503 mercury.mv.net> Subject: Confirming Dr. Case's Catalytic Fusion Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 23:28:54 -0400 x-sender: zeropoint-ed pop.mv.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: "E.F. Mallove" To: "VORTEX" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Resent-Message-ID: <"0k37P3.0.Tm.m3KIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18083 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Vortexians: PRELIMINARY CONFIRMATION TEST OF DR. LESLIE CASE'S CATALYTIC FUSION This is a very happy day. Dr. Leslie Case spent a full day here at the lab of Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. in Bow, New Hampshire. He brought his own equipment to demonstrate his "Catalytic Fusion" process, as part of an agreement we made at ICCF-7 in Vancouver, BC last week. I was extremely grateful to him for having spent an entire day here, letting me watch every nuance of how he conducted the experiment. To my satisfaction, the results of today's tests confirm that a very extraordinary anomalous energy source occurs in the reaction of deuterium gas and his specified Pd-activated carbon catalysts. We achieved a persisting excess temperature that climbed to 13.2 deg C above the baseline temperature of 178.1 C. There is little question that with this kind of dramatic excess temperature, implying a serious excess power source of some low but significant wattage(*), appropriate insulation of the cell should lead rather quickly (one hopes) to a self-sustaining device. In fact, Case is working on just such a project using an insulating dewar, which he hopes to complete in the next month. He is being fully open and wants to cooperate with us and others toward making demonstrations and devices so that this effect will become widely accepted. He also is hell-bent to scale-up to make much larger power reactors -- multi-kilowatts. It appears that this may be nearly an optimal embodiment of the original Fleischmann-Pons cold fusion process. (*) With a linear temperature extrapolation from 18 deg ambient and the 92 watt input that heated the cell to baseline temp of 178.1, the 13.2 C elevation above baseline could represent as much as 23 watts excess power, but it might be less. Certainly it is in the multi-watt range. Testing on April 30, 1998: Case was here in our lab from 8:45 a.m to 8:00 p.m., so this was a very intense day. I learned a lot more about how he had discovered his process and about he believes it can be further improved and commercialized. We began by weighing out 53.3 grams of G-75D catalyst -- that is a 0.4% Pd activated carbon catalyst from: United Catalysts, Inc. (attn: Douglas Perkins, 502-634-7241) PO Box 32370 Louisville, KY 40232 Perkins recommends that we and others use the G-75E catalyst, not the "D", because "E" gives a bit better result, but it was "D" that we worked with today. I have ordered 100 cc's of the "E" catalyst for our own continued work here. We will make a full-up demo starting precisely with the apparatus seen today. This appears to be such a robust process that any reasonable facsimile will do --but THE catalyst that he recommends should be the one you start with. The cell used is an old WW-II short cylindrical oxygen tank of 1.6 liters capacity. This is about 5-inches diameter, 7-inches tall, with spherical ends. On one end a 1/4-inch pipe is affixed leading to a steel rotary valve -- a needle valve, I trust. After the valve is a gas fitting termination for alternating connection to gas filling tanks and a vacuum pump. Also welded to the tank near the top is a "half-collar" pipe fitting into which a dial pressure gage is attached. Also on the top end is a steel thermocouple well welded to the tank -- it is about 0.25 inch in diameter. It penetrates the wall at a steep incline toward the bottom and reaches a point from 0.25 to 0.5 inches from the inside tank bottom. The well is closed at its business end. Its purpose is to receive thermocouples for measuring the catalyst temperature. I used two k-type thermocouples going to my Fluke 52 meter. I used TC #1 to record data, TC #2 to check against #1 occasionally. They agree to within 0.2 degree C or less. 1. First the catalyst is admitted to the cell by removing the dial pressure gage. The gage is put back and the threads sealed with Ace plumber's teflon pipe thread compound. 2. The tank is attached to a vacuum pump (Lammert #10,302) and pumped down. Indication of adequate pumping -- only several minutes -- is when the pump sound changes to being higher pitched. Others will surely wish to use a vacuum gage, but it is not necessary. The more gas removed each conditioning cycle, the better. The valve is then closed in preparation for admitting H2 gas. 3. Next are successive cycles of H2 gas admission, heating, and evacuation. The purpose of this phase, prior to D2 admission, is to get rid of all residual *chemical* activity. There are oxides and other stuff on the catalyst. By reacting these with H2, the catalyst is cleaned and prepared. 4. We required three lengthy H2 cycles today with this new, unused catalyst (If the catalyst had previously been used, it would not be necessary to go through all the cycles). On the first cycle, research grade H2 was admitted from our pressure cylinder creating 50 psi in the cell (18 C ambient temperature). The cell is placed in a "resin heater" -- which is a fabric coated cylindrical resistance heater measuring 7-inches diameter and about 8 inches tall. The cell sits loosely in this "nest." The power source for the heater was our variac with V and A analog gauges -- 150 V max on scale, 5 A max on current scale. We ran at ALL times at 55 V, 1.67 A. ONLY two or three times -- and ONLY during the catalyst conditioning phases -- was it necessary to nudge the voltage knob even a tiny bit (less than 0.5 volt) to bring it back to 55 V. 5. The first cycle lasted from 9:47 a.m. to 11:20 a.m. and the ending temperature had stabilized to 183.1 C for about 9 minutes at the end -- pressure and temperature readings were manually recorded at several minute intervals. The temperature stabilizing meant it was time to evacuate and refill -- chemical reactions and heating had reached steady state. The unit was discharged to the air -- steam and bulk water was visible, as well as old catalyst dust in the valve. This water comes from the combination of H2 with oxides on the catalyst surface. 6. Evacuation and pump down was followed by H2 gas refill (53 psi at 102.5 C starting temperature) for the second cycle. [At each gas fill, Dr. Case bled some hydrogen out of the regulator before opening the valve to the chamber -- this is to remove air from the pipe pathway.] This second cycle lasted from 11:25 a.m. to 1:06 p.m. and the temperature stabilized at 182.0 C for about 8 minutes. Again the gas was exhausted to the air and much less steam -- about 10% of the first cycle was noticed. 7. Pump down for the third cycle, admitting H2 at 50 psi (144.2 C starting temperature -- the power is turned off to the heater and the tank removed from the nest, so it cools down while being evacuated and refilled.) This cycle lasted from 1:10 to 4:07 pm ( we had left the lab for about 45 minutes for lunch at the Grist Mill in Bow). Temperature stabilized at 178.1 C for the last nine minutes. Dr. Case deemed this the baseline temperature -- he noted no visible steam on exhausting the gas. He noted that the several degrees above this determined baseline temperature could be accounted for by the exothermicity of the chemical reactions. 8. Pump down in preparation for admitting deuterium gas. Fill cell with D2 gas to 48 psi (start at 145.0 C) at 4:10 pm. Cell began to heat and by 4:51 had crossed the 178.1 degree baseline and was moving into the nominal excess power regime. Dr. Case noted in advance that he would not be satisfied unless a persisting elevated temperature of at least 5 deg C was observed. That has been his criterion over the years for an obvious catalytic fusion active catalyst. We achieved much better than that... By 5:58 pm. the temperature had reached 188.3 deg C -- over a 10.2 C elevation. We took a break and went for supper. Returning to the lab, we found at 7:37 p.m. the temperature at 191.0 deg C and it was continuing to climb -- Case noted that this was to be expected occur the next few hours and even weeks that these effects have been seen. He has held elevations of this sort for at least three weeks -- and even then turned the system off not because it had failed, but to have the gases tested. He has found from 90 to 100 ppm Helium-4 in gas from his cells tested at Oak Ridge National Lab - far above the 6 ppm atmospheric background. Both Case and Doug Perkins suggest that it ridiculous to suggest that He-4 could be liberated from the catalyst --the temperature cycling with H2 and subsequent evacuations would surely eliminate it even if it were there. The catalyst is made from carbonized coconut shells and Pd -- unlikely traps for He-4 anyway. He has had something like five He-4 tests, but obviously more tests will be in order. As to the suggestion that methane forming reactions can be responsible for the temperature rise -- methane does NOT form below 1500 C according to Perkins at United Catalysts. Further more, why would they form only with D2? Further and finally, chemical reactions from such a small reaction mass could not produce watts of power for weeks on end. Dr. Case told me that he expected that the elevated temperature would persist for weeks if not months and there might be a further temperature rise. He left me a teaspoon full of unused catalyst as a sample and took his cell back to his lab near the New Hampshire seacoast. I wished we had been able to leave it here, but Case's confidence that we would achieve our own results and see long duration runs was itself impressive. He showed me his "Mark -1" cell design, not much different than what he has now. Many photos were taken. I will try to post these as soon as they are developed. of course we will have a big write-up about all this in IE #19 coming out later in May. And watch our WWW site for further details of testing. We are happy that Scott Little, MIke McKubre, and others will soon be checking out this process. A large end-useer US corporation is also doing so. Based on what I saw today and the lengthy description of how this all came about, I am quite convinced that this is real excess heat that can persist for long periods. I trust that the helium results at Oak Ridge were done properly. More comments later... Best, Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief Infinite Energy Magazine Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. PO Box 2816 Concord, NH 03302 Phone: 603-228-4516 Fax: 603-224-5975 editor infinite-energy.com http://www.infinite-energy.com From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 20:53:52 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02637; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805010347.UAA16169 norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: mrandall 204.119.177.49 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l eskimo.com From: Michael Randall Subject: Re: Minato magnetic motor Resent-Message-ID: <"11AYh1.0.5f.-OKIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18084 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To Vortex, The magnetic bicycle wheel demonstration unit is now scheduled to be in Los Angeles by this June. Regards, Michael At 10:02 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote: >To Jerry Decker, >What is the latest on the Minato motor? There ws supposed to >be a demo unit in L.A. in april. >Ron Brennen > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 22:05:54 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15199; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:54:58 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Confirming Dr. Case's Catalytic Fusion In-Reply-To: <199805010326.XAA14503 mercury.mv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"JTHEY.0.Jj3.NQLIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18085 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, E.F. Mallove wrote: > Vortexians: > > PRELIMINARY CONFIRMATION TEST OF DR. LESLIE CASE'S CATALYTIC FUSION > Thank you Gene for this VERY interesting news. Good luck with the rest of your experiments. The fact that excess heat is specific to Deuterium after multiple cycling with ordinary H2 is very interesting news. Some suggestions for covering potential weak points: 1. Is it possible that impurities in the D2 are causing chemical reactions in the system? 2. Is there some way we can estimate the resolution of the Oak Ridge 4He measurement. The Mass of D2 is pretty close the 4He so it is an important point. 3. What was the concentration of 4He in the D2 prior to the energy generating run? Thanks Martin Sevior From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 22:52:25 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05420; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:33 -0700 Message-ID: <35494FDE.7257 interlaced.net> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:30:22 -0400 From: "Francis J. Stenger" Organization: NASA (Retired) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Spacecraft finds solar tornadoes as wide as the Earth References: <3548D8DD.2C05885D css.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"hQSuB.0.fJ1.aAMIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18087 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: > ....punish us > evil humans by toasting us with just those very things - giant ball > lightning pulses that will cause the earth to heat up and inflate, sinking > the Hawaiian Islands, etc. etc. There they go, Rick, making villains of my favorite anomally! :-( I just can't believe "my" ball lightning would be a party to sinking your islands. We had better keep an eye on the sun, Rick (thru glasses darkly!) - we don't want anything sneaking up on us! Frank Stenger From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 22:53:28 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05321; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:27 -0700 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:55:33 +1000 (EST) From: Martin Sevior To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minato magnetic motor In-Reply-To: <199805010347.UAA16169 norway.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Q02-_2.0.EI1.UAMIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18086 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Why does this sound familar? On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Michael Randall wrote: > To Vortex, > > The magnetic bicycle wheel demonstration unit is now scheduled to be in Los > Angeles by this June. > > Regards, Michael > > At 10:02 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote: > >To Jerry Decker, > >What is the latest on the Minato motor? There ws supposed to > >be a demo unit in L.A. in april. > >Ron Brennen > > > > > > > > From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 22:54:35 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05571; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:47 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980430235832.00950100 mail.eden.com> X-Sender: little mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:58:32 -0500 To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com From: Scott Little Subject: Re: Case Run 1 underway In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19980430181013.00bc6de8 mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"Xelv.0.QM1.qAMIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18088 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: At 06:03 PM 4/30/98 -0800, Schaffer gav.gat.com wrote: >Got a gas chromotograph? An IR spectrometer? Alas, no. I've been considering buying a Residual Gas Analyzer which is a dedicated quadrupole mass spectrometer that installs permanently in the vacuum system...but I haven't done it yet. Robert Eachus wrote: >It always amazed me how much O2 could remain adsorbed on >surfaces in a vacuum unless you did some sort of a boilout. we did NOT bakeout the catalyst under vacuum. I normally would have done so but Case doesn't.... Many thanks to Gene Mallove for a nicely detailed account of Dr. Case's demonstration. I will attempt to match the same steps with my system tomorrow. Hopefully I will also observe the same "excess temperature". Much more hopefully, my water-flow calorimetry will confirm that the excess temperature is also genuine excess heat! Stay tuned. Scott Little & Stephanie Eyres Little 1406 Old Wagon Road Austin TX 78746 512-328-4071 From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 23:37:27 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01924; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <01BD751E.3DA2F3C0 pc038---brendan> From: Brendan Hall To: "'vortex-l eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Confirming Dr. Case's Catalytic Fusion Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:28:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD751E.3DAC1B80" Resent-Message-ID: <"_40ZE1.0.yT.EpMIr" mx2> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18089 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD751E.3DAC1B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: E.F. Mallove Sent: Friday, 1 May 1998 13:28 To: VORTEX Subject: Confirming Dr. Case's Catalytic Fusion Mallove wrote >Vortexians: >PRELIMINARY CONFIRMATION TEST OF DR. LESLIE CASE'S >CATALYTIC FUSION >He left me a teaspoon full of unused catalyst as a sample and took >his cell back to his lab near the New Hampshire seacoast. Did you obtain any of the used catalyst for further analysis? 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Mallove wrote: >Vortexians: > >PRELIMINARY CONFIRMATION TEST OF DR. LESLIE CASE'S CATALYTIC FUSION > >This is a very happy day. [snip] >There is little question that with this kind of dramatic excess >temperature, implying a serious excess power source of some low but >significant wattage(*), appropriate insulation of the cell should lead >rather quickly (one hopes) to a self-sustaining device. In fact, Case is >working on just such a project using an insulating dewar, which he hopes >to complete in the next month. A happy day indeed! Some ideas: It should be possible to simply wrap the Case device in a thick blanket of fiberglass. Add an oven thermostat inside the blanket to turn off the power to the primary of the variac at 175 C, or 180 etc. Put an ordinary 120 V synchronous alarm clock in parallel to the variac but in series with the thermostat to keep track of the current "on" time. If desired use another alarm clock hooked to direct power to keep track of the experiment run time. A computer would be fancier, but this method would be very cheap. One possible problem is temperature might run away, due to lack of cooling. If this happens, the experiment is already a monumental success. A quick fix to the problem migh be to remove some of the insulation, or to insert one or more lengths of heavy guage copper wire up through the insulation, and dunk the outside ends of the wire into water in a thermos below the device, which can then made to boil for dramatic proof of principle. Regards, Horace Heffner From vortex-l-request eskimo.com Thu Apr 30 23:54:23 1998 Received: (from smartlst localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01986; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:50:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:50:22 -0700 Message-ID: <35496FD2.10B9 keelynet.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 01:46:42 -0500 From: "Jerry W. Decker" Reply-To: jdecker keelynet.com Organization: KeelyNet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortex-l eskimo.com Subject: Re: Minato magnetic motor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"O9oDI2.0.yU.j2NIr" mx1> Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18091 X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Gnorts Martin et al! You wrote with regard to Michael Minato report; > Why does this sound familar? No more 'familiar' than the endless and often bogus chemical minutiae reported here.........looking, not finding, but always looking. I refrained from reporting the latest Minato update here because the first report of a demo unit was to be in January, the second report moved it to April and the third now moves it to June. There will be no more reports on it from me here, though they will be on another list more open to it, until a version is actually available to see, whether as a video or working unit, preferably demonstrated at a conference such as INE. -- Jerry W. Decker / jdecker keelynet.com http://keelynet.com / "From an Art to a Science" Voice : (214) 324-8741 / FAX : (214) 324-3501 KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187